Don’t miss tomorrow’s preview, where we’ll be looking at the Valhallans, the highly anticipated changes to conscripts, and the return of a classic and much-loved rule…
The Strategm could easily allow you to nab or contest an objective where you couldn't previously. You can advance in the movement phase too for a total of 3D6 extra move. Very situational yes, but not terrible.
So will be 8th the dead of the people that shame you and call you TFG if you use White Scars rules with your Ultramarines?
I hope so. Is obvious that with all armies having this kind of bonuses, nobody is gonna keep a trait for their army that they don't like just because they picked that army before when there were no rules for it.
Whoa, just had a thought. What if they get rid of Conscripts completely and reintroduce them as a stratagem( Send in the next wave, I'm unfamiliar as to how that worked back in the day). 1cp gets you 20, 2cp 30, 3cp 40, 4cp for 50 or something like that? Place anywhere in your deployment at least 9 inches away from the enemy
The extra 6" range is most useful on things that are short-ranged currently. Demolishers, punishers, multi-meltas, plasma guns - and I guess lasguns.
From using my primaris guys I can definitely say it makes a difference going from 24 up to 30" range. Even the extra 3" of rapid fire range is a really big help.
The Catachan Phrasebook
by The Warhammer Community Team
Attention Guardsman! We have good news and better news. The good news is that, following critical casualties, your regiment will be returning to full strength. The better news is that this will be accomplished by merging your regiment with the Catachan 784th “Roaring Devils”.
Due to some mild cultural differences between your regiments, this may require some readjustment on your part. In particular, Catachan regiments are known for their rough turns of phrase and robust approach to authority figures. Thankfully, the Regimental Standard, with the aid of legendary Etiquette-Commissar Klaus Albericht, have provided a phrasebook in order to make this transition as smooth as possible.
Catachan Phrasebook
“Emperor dammit, Guardsman! Clear the LZ before I make one for my boot on your [Expunged]!” Please vacate the area for your own safety, and for that of your comrades!
“You hive-soft blue-blood! That plan’s dumber than a Catachan Devil - after I’ve sawed it’s head off!” I respectfully disagree with your current course of action.
“Light the fething maggots up!” I humbly petition the commander to authorise the use of flamer weapons.
“Who’s the new bolt-magnet?” I notice the Wyrdvane Psykers have been reinforced!
“I’m not letting these toy soldiers get all the glory. Charge!” Move to support the Militarum Tempestus with all due haste!
“Be very still. Spooks can smell fear and you reek of it, greenie” Courage, comrade! The Lictor lurks - steel your heart.
Emperor’s teeth, hangman! You didn’t have to shoot him! Commissar, as always I commend your course of action despite some mild discomfort.
“Ammo? The only guns we need are right here” (Usually followed by flexing) I feel this enemy would be best confronted in close combat in order to conserve resources.
Commissar Klaus Albericht’s works include The Complete Etiquette Guide for Dining with Mordians: Volume 1: Pre-dinner Drinks and Appetisers, The Complete Etiquette Guide for Dining with Mordians: Volume 2: Second and Third Courses, The Complete Guide to Combat with the Heretic Astartes When They Invade an Otherwise Superb Formal Mordian Dinner, and The Complete Etiquette Guide for Dining With Mordians Volume 3: Dessert, Brandy, and Commemorating the Fallen.
I fully expect "send in the next wave" to be extremely similar to the word bearers version in that it allows you to remove the current conscript unit from the board and replace it with a new unit that is fully replenished.
The Catachans were my first love, until the plastic Cadians came out. Now the GW staff have to go ahead and remind me why the Catachans are so fun! They are doing an excellent job of getting me hyped for the new codex.
Hmmm I tend towards the return of combined squads rule as a stratagem, like this : spend 1 CP to merge two infantry squads of the same detachment.
We will see tomorrow.
However I'm a little worried about what they will make about my beloved Valhallans. The Catachans stratagems are quite powerful (especially if you plan to use their boosted strenght or LRBT), Mordian stratagems are OK-ish, Vostroyan ones are very handy. I hope that Valhallan stratagems will see broader use than just a boost for conscripts. Firstly because they will get nerfed anyway, secondly because I hate using them and prefer the good old line infantry squad.
Put me down for either send in the next wave or combined squads. I would really like to see both, but if I had to pick I would want to combine squads. Being limited to just 10 man guard sqauds feels really weird to me.
The Exterminator did get the doubled rounds, just like everything else. The Exterminator Autocannon is Heavy 4 (a normal one is Heavy 2)...it's just called Exterminator Autocannon instead of Twin Autocannon. At least that's what the Index includes.
While I don't play guard and think the Catachan special rules are half-baked silliness, these are the only jungle fighters anyone needs:
Van Diemens troops from Victoria Miniatures - proper Aussie/New Zealand/British "Chindit" style Guardsmen.
If we had a military division with the bullet-carrying capacity of these birds it would face any army in the world... They can face machine guns with the invulnerability of tanks. They are like Zulus whom even dum-dum bullets could not stop
Once all factions are up to date is one of the most optimistic statements I've ever heard.
In truth I think it'll likely depend on what regiments end up being popular after the codex is released. If a lot of people are converting or getting third party certain regiments, you can be GW will look to resume production of those lines.
But which ones they will choose ? The first operation of "made to order" was done on the second edition metal regiments and kasrkin, IIRC. It was a too short operation and lasted only a few hours.
Ravajaxe wrote: But which ones they will choose ? The first operation of "made to order" was done on the second edition metal regiments and kasrkin, IIRC. It was a too short operation and lasted only a few hours.
Could cycle them through or do a straw poll. Being able to get my mits on more Valhallans (including special, heavy, command and the Comm Link vox fella) or even Praetorians would be delicious. Who knows, maybe even lobby Forgeworld to put the resin Tallarns up for a time.
Anyone with a Faceache account willing to make the suggestion on the Warhammer 40,000 page?
Does anyone think we'd get new Catachan models? I love the idea of them, but the models are really dated. I think one of my first 'properly' painted figures was the missile launcher loader, which I had bought from a second hand store.
SilverAlien wrote: Once all factions are up to date is one of the most optimistic statements I've ever heard.
In truth I think it'll likely depend on what regiments end up being popular after the codex is released. If a lot of people are converting or getting third party certain regiments, you can be GW will look to resume production of those lines.
GW still sells at least the basic squads for the metal regiments. Valhalla,
Vostroyans and Steel Legion actually have a pretty intact range compared to the older ones.
They still sell, for the Vostoryans, the Lascannon Team, the Snipers, the Command Squad(Officer with Powerfist and Baton, Regimental Standard, Vox-Operator, Medic, Grenade Launcher), the Firstborn Squad(6 Lasgunners, a Sergeant with a Laspistol and pointy arm, Flamethrower, and a Heavy Bolter Team), and a lone Plasma Gunner.
Tallarn, Mordian, Valhallan, and Gaunt's Ghosts have a single box each.
Gaunt's includes Larkin so you get a sniper and Tallarn include a Rocket Launcher Team and a Plasma Gunner, otherwise they lack special/heavy weapons at the moment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
zedmeister wrote: Sounds like a perfect time for GW to do a made to order for the older IG regiments.
Why? There's a ton of stuff still available for them right from GW.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ritualnet wrote: Does anyone think we'd get new Catachan models? I love the idea of them, but the models are really dated. I think one of my first 'properly' painted figures was the missile launcher loader, which I had bought from a second hand store.
Realistically, all that's needed is a new basic trooper kit.
The Heavy Weapon and Command Squads are actually quite nice kits.
Galas wrote: So will be 8th the dead of the people that shame you and call you TFG if you use White Scars rules with your Ultramarines?
I hope so. Is obvious that with all armies having this kind of bonuses, nobody is gonna keep a trait for their army that they don't like just because they picked that army before when there were no rules for it.
That's the standard of these days. Pick up the chapter/regiment/whatever that suits the models you field in this game. White scars this day, ultramarines next.
Galas wrote: So will be 8th the dead of the people that shame you and call you TFG if you use White Scars rules with your Ultramarines?
I hope so. Is obvious that with all armies having this kind of bonuses, nobody is gonna keep a trait for their army that they don't like just because they picked that army before when there were no rules for it.
That's the standard of these days. Pick up the chapter/regiment/whatever that suits the models you field in this game. White scars this day, ultramarines next.
It's been pretty common for Marine players to do this since at least 3rd edition. Eldar Craftworlds as well in 3rd edition.
Hm. Then probably is just a difference in personal experience. I have meet many people that put very fast the label of TFG if you use different rules than the ones that GW has arbitrarily put to your paint scheme.
Oh yeah I'm totally cool with that, but I have encounter people that has strong opinions agains't it, thats why I wrote the previous comment that have been quoted.
zedmeister wrote: Sounds like a perfect time for GW to do a made to order for the older IG regiments.
Why? There's a ton of stuff still available for them right from GW.
Did you seriously ask this? Well, it'd be nice to run a Mordian Lascannon team, a Lieutenant, maybe a few plasma gunners. Although, I do fancy a few Tallarn mortar units. Tell me, where do I go to get these on GW's site?
zedmeister wrote: Sounds like a perfect time for GW to do a made to order for the older IG regiments.
Why? There's a ton of stuff still available for them right from GW.
Did you seriously ask this? Well, it'd be nice to run a Mordian Lascannon team, a Lieutenant, maybe a few plasma gunners. Although, I do fancy a few Tallarn mortar units. Tell me, where do I go to get these on GW's site?
You go to years ago and get them then. The stuff that isn't listed purportedly no longer has workable molds.
Ravajaxe wrote: Hmmm I tend towards the return of combined squads rule as a stratagem, like this : spend 1 CP to merge two infantry squads of the same detachment.
We will see tomorrow.
However I'm a little worried about what they will make about my beloved Valhallans. The Catachans stratagems are quite powerful (especially if you plan to use their boosted strenght or LRBT), Mordian stratagems are OK-ish, Vostroyan ones are very handy. I hope that Valhallan stratagems will see broader use than just a boost for conscripts. Firstly because they will get nerfed anyway, secondly because I hate using them and prefer the good old line infantry squad.
Agreed. My thought is that they should give Valhallan infantry a 6+ FNP since in the fluff Valhallans live like 2-4 hours more than the 15 hour life expectancy of the average guardsman.
Conscripts have seen some changes in the new Astra Militarum codex, designed to make them fit their background more appropriately. If you’ve got loads of these guys on hand, don’t worry! They’re still a very handy unit (particularly in the Valhallan army). Firstly, Conscripts can only be taken in units of 20-30, reducing the effectiveness of stacking orders on a block of 50. Secondly, orders only work on Conscripts on a 4+, and, should they fail, no more orders will work on the unit for the rest of the turn.
The vehicle buff for valhallans seems insane... limiting the characteristics nerf for taking damage could make them a serious contender for strongest vehicle regiment...
Also, yay! Baneblades no longer get the -1 on heavy weapons!
Valhallan doctrine: half losses from morale, vehicles count as having double wounds for determining their characteristics
Valhallan order: can fire into CC
Valhallan stratagem: bring back a destroyed infantry unit
Conscript nerfs: unit size now just 20-30, can only be ordered on a 4+
Other news:
There is a "Combined Squads" stratagem
Baneblades can move and fire heavy weapons without penalty
"Crush Them" stratagem: a vehicle can advance and charge, then hit on a 2+
Send in the Next wave is good, but kind of situational it seems considering you have to walk them on from the deployment zone. I can see it being really useful late game for sending a swarm of dudes back to defend/push enemies off of home objectives.
Glad to see combined squads come back, probably a one cp strategem.
You have to get a Leman Russ tanks down to one wound before it counts as being on the last damage line!
Very impressed with the regiments so far, they are saying tomorrow is going to be the last, and be Armageddon steel legion. Did just miss the cadian regiment bonus somewhere?
You have to get a Leman Russ tanks down to one wound before it counts as being on the last damage line!
Very impressed with the regiments so far, they are saying tomorrow is going to be the last, and be Armageddon steel legion. Did just miss the cadian regiment bonus somewhere?
There will be 8 regiments in the codex and they've only shown 4. For AdMech they ended up putting out the last 2 on Saturday.
I don't think anything has yet went up in price going from Index to Codex. If anything they might have dropped in price due to how bad they were perceived to be.
They just had an Inside the Studio stream (if you're a subscriber I think you can watch the video on twitch). I'm told that they gave away some of the other doctrines:
Tallarn: advance and fire (not heavy weapons), vehicles can move and fire heavy weapons
Steel Legion: rapid fire up to 18", vehicles ignore AP of -1
Cadians: re-roll 1s to hit if they don't move
I caught the end where they said that Basilisks are now AP-3.
There's a grenade stratagem like the Death Guard one, where every model in the unit can throw.
Firefox1 wrote: Glad to see that GW seems to have a very good hand with balancing units.
Unit1126PLL wrote:WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT
BANEBLADES ARE BETTER AT SHOOTING THAN KNIGHTS *dances*
How is that? BB = 4+; Knight = 3+.
So Baneblades can shoot while locked up and knights can't. The size of the Baneblade hull means that enemies cannot be within 3" of an objective if you park on it.
A knight will have to fall back to shoot its guns, giving up either an objective or a shooting phase.
A Baneblade can park on the objective, score forever and lose exactly zero shooting phases no matter how many ruffians bang on her iron skirts!
That means that, if you want to score on objectives, Baneblades will have more shooting phases than knights. This has already happened several times at my FLGS.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: I don't think anything has yet went up in price going from Index to Codex. If anything they might have dropped in price due to how bad they were perceived to be.
Dude, IG has been perceived as the strongest army in this edition! Who told them they were poor?
Dionysodorus wrote: They just had an Inside the Studio stream (if you're a subscriber I think you can watch the video on twitch). I'm told that they gave away some of the other doctrines:
Tallarn: advance and fire (not heavy weapons), vehicles can move and fire heavy weapons
Steel Legion: rapid fire up to 18", vehicles ignore AP of -1
Cadians: re-roll 1s to hit if they don't move
I caught the end where they said that Basilisks are now AP-3.
There's a grenade stratagem like the Death Guard one, where every model in the unit can throw.
Well, if anyone needs advice on running superheavies I've ran plenty.
My experience is predominantly with:
1) Baneblades (my Line companies are 3 baneblades)
2) Stormswords (my Assault companies are 3 stormswords)
3) Banehammers (my Transport company is 3 Banehammers)
4) Stormhammers (my Breakthrough company is 3 Stormhammers)
5) Shadowswords (I considered Shadowswords for my Tank Destruction company)
6) Valdors (I settled on 3 Valdors for my Tank Destruction company for fluff reasons)
I have army lists built around the superheavies and supporting them with all the tools available, or lists built around maximizing command points with that many huge units, or lists built around playing team games with allied IG regiments...
Kanluwen wrote: Yeah because those Kasrkin and metal Officers for the Catachans and Cadians sure were old models.
Also:
Spoiler:
You couldn't have gotten a Mordian Plasma Gun then anyways.
And? What prevents them from pushing a few models not previously available in that Made to Order run along with a second run of the bunch of Mordians, Valhallans, etc listed above? I don't understand why you're getting stroppy because I'm desiring GW to put out some older models? it'd be nice considering the new codex and all.
Never has that phrase been more appropriate than right now (especially since now they are actually 11 independent barrels, rather than "twin linked" and being essentially 1.5 barrels).
I think Valhallans are the strongest by far we've seen. Needing to get a tank down to 3 wounds before it's BS degrades is a big deal, particularly for guard. The fact rerolling hits is such a rare commodity for them combined with already mediocre bs meant tanks quickly became uselsss as their wound total decreased. Not to mention all the other -1 to hit modifiers floating around.
The infantry buff is... alright. It saves on commissars somewhat. Probably works best for normal infantry squads, as they weren't likely to be taking that many casualties in the first place.
As for the stratagem, this is the one that actually bothers me. Every other army with such an ability needed the unit to still be on the field, meaning they could still be focused down. This allows you to recycle any that was killed, effectively meaning there is no way to prevent that unit coming back on the field. It's actually less an issue for a unit like conscripts than a heavy weapon team. That's three lascannons/mortars/whatever that aren't leaving the field no matter what.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: I don't think anything has yet went up in price going from Index to Codex. If anything they might have dropped in price due to how bad they were perceived to be.
Dude, IG has been perceived as the strongest army in this edition! Who told them they were poor?
Alot of other units such as Russes, Chimera's, Vets, etc were very overpriced for output and staying power.
BrookM wrote: Anything on the stream about the Militarum Tempestus?
I was told that their doctrine is that they get to make another shot if they roll a 6+ to hit within half range. It would be pretty useful if someone with a warhammer tv subscription could double check me so this isn't just a game of telephone.
There's a lot of stuff in this update:
Conscripts are 20-30, and orders only succeed on a 4+
Combined Squads is a stratagem
Vehicles can do work in close combat
Baneblades can move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty
So Baneblades can shoot while locked up and knights can't. The size of the Baneblade hull means that enemies cannot be within 3" of an objective if you park on it.
A knight will have to fall back to shoot its guns, giving up either an objective or a shooting phase.
A Baneblade can park on the objective, score forever and lose exactly zero shooting phases no matter how many ruffians bang on her iron skirts!
That means that, if you want to score on objectives, Baneblades will have more shooting phases than knights. This has already happened several times at my FLGS.
We had that one already.
The knight can charge right back after shooting effectively moving in the same spot where he was at the beginn of the players turn. So he also looses zero shooting phases.
Falling back and charge against is by the way a wise choice, as the attacker strikes first.
You seem to have very weird games, i have never seen one where an objective was overrun as you described and an objective denial through sheer size was required.
May be it is a result of your army composition (Super-Heavy Platoon).
But i must admit the 4+ helps the lascannons a lot and vs. T7 3+ targets a BB-variant with 4 sponsons seem to be better.
And with the regimental tactic even more.
Either way the upgraded rule was much needed for SHTs.
"Crush them" will fit your playstyle.
Someone compared a BB with Leman Russes worth the same points?
So Baneblades can shoot while locked up and knights can't. The size of the Baneblade hull means that enemies cannot be within 3" of an objective if you park on it.
A knight will have to fall back to shoot its guns, giving up either an objective or a shooting phase.
A Baneblade can park on the objective, score forever and lose exactly zero shooting phases no matter how many ruffians bang on her iron skirts!
That means that, if you want to score on objectives, Baneblades will have more shooting phases than knights. This has already happened several times at my FLGS.
We had that one already.
The knight can charge right back after shooting effectively moving in the same spot where he was at the beginn of the players turn. So he also looses zero shooting phases. Falling back and charge against is by the way a wise choice, as the attacker strikes first.
You seem to have very weird games, i have never seen one where an objective was overrun as you described and an objective denial through sheer size was required. May be it is a result of your army composition (Super-Heavy Platoon).
But i must admit the 4+ helps the lascannons a lot and vs. T7 3+ targets a BB-variant with 4 sponsons seem to be better. And with the regimental tactic even more.
Either way the upgraded rule was much needed for SHTs.
"Crush them" will fit your playstyle.
Someone compared a BB with Leman Russes worth the same points?
It depends on how the points fall out, but since LRBTs got cheaper they might be better.
The problem with the knight's fall-back and charge to get in the same place is a failed charge roll. A baneblade can just sit there.
I am super duper excited about Crush Them! for sure, and I actually don't run that many sponsons. A Trojan is worth more than a set of Sponsons, so saving points for Trojans is important.
Daedalus81 wrote: I don't see why they wouldn't advertise it. They've mentioned point changes before.
These changes strikes the balance between different perspectives fairly well, I think.
If by that you mean "left conscripts absurdly durable for cost, doing nothing to address their ubiquity as a must take unit for every imperial player" in order to cater to those imperial guard players who really want their army to be overpowered and make a token attempt to mitigate the anger of people who'd like actual balance, then yes I suppose you could say that. But that's like striking a balance between flat earthers and round earthers by declaring that the earth is a cube. You are catering to people who are objectively incorrect when they should be ignored or laughed at instead.
If conscripts are still 3 ppm with no other nerfs, we should toss in the towel on the idea GW could ever actually balance a game.
Daedalus81 wrote: I don't see why they wouldn't advertise it. They've mentioned point changes before.
These changes strikes the balance between different perspectives fairly well, I think.
If by that you mean "left conscripts absurdly durable for cost, doing nothing to address their ubiquity as a must take unit for every imperial player" in order to cater to those imperial guard players who really want their army to be overpowered and make a token attempt to mitigate the anger of people who'd like actual balance, then yes I suppose you could say that. But that's like striking a balance between flat earthers and round earthers by declaring that the earth is a cube. You are catering to people who are objectively incorrect when they should be ignored or laughed at instead.
If conscripts are still 3 ppm with no other nerfs, we should toss in the towel on the idea GW could ever actually balance a game.
You know, I think we proved at one point that without orders, Conscripts were on the bell curve. I can go back and check again.
Now orders are 50% flat less effective, and then some percentage less effective because of smaller unit sizes.
The problems with Conscripts isn't the conscripts alone. The problems are the parking lot+Guilliman they have behind, and the Plasma-Scions they have in front.
A bunch of good cannon fodder (Something IG should have) with a properly balanced army behind them, isn't that bad.
Even as nerfed, I'd look hard at 30 Catachan Conscripts with a priest and Straken. That's 3 S4 attacks each, with a 50% of a second fight in the shooting phase with orders.
Anyway, with combined squads back (in some form), I think we'll have bigger fish to fry.
It depends on how the points fall out, but since LRBTs got cheaper they might be better.
The problem with the knight's fall-back and charge to get in the same place is a failed charge roll. A baneblade can just sit there.
I am super duper excited about Crush Them! for sure, and I actually don't run that many sponsons. A Trojan is worth more than a set of Sponsons, so saving points for Trojans is important.
Well you can always fall only a little more than 1" to the enemy back. So it would be an auto-charge.
These days there seem to be more good choice for IG than ever esp. if you include FW.
Yes a trojan for a SHT seems worth it.
It depends on how the points fall out, but since LRBTs got cheaper they might be better.
The problem with the knight's fall-back and charge to get in the same place is a failed charge roll. A baneblade can just sit there.
I am super duper excited about Crush Them! for sure, and I actually don't run that many sponsons. A Trojan is worth more than a set of Sponsons, so saving points for Trojans is important.
Well you can always fall only a little more than 1" to the enemy back. So it would be an auto-charge.
These days there seem to be more good choice for IG than ever esp. if you include FW.
Yes a trojan for a SHT seems worth it.
That all depends. At my FLGS, Knights have been stranded out of combat or even in combat on more than one occasion, as have my Baneblades. The difference always was that while the knight had to fall back to shoot, the Baneblades could happily just sit there and be immune to enemy bullets.
It could be that our knight player is an idiot; I've not personally played against him as he seems scared of the IG tanks.
And, something to think about the Conscripts nerfs. We hare accustomed to the GW swinging balance-bat. When the only balancing change you do is one every 4-5 years, you go big or go home. Thats why many times, very good units become unplayable because they over-nerfed them.
With this new FAQ's, living document, etc... mentality, I'm glad to see that GW is trying a more humble approach. They want to balance Conscripts, not make them totally useless. So even if those changes don't are enough to make them balanced and they are still more powerfull than they should, I think GW will eventually with Chapter Approved, FAQ's, etc... balance them with small nerfs-buffs.
Unit1126PLL wrote: You know, I think we proved at one point that without orders, Conscripts were on the bell curve. I can go back and check again.
Now orders are 50% flat less effective, and then some percentage less effective because of smaller unit sizes.
The salt is real.
People kept arguing that conscripts were only as durable per point as space marines in cover which made them balanced. Which was and is absurd. In fact it was literally just you who keeps forgetting that no, there was no merit to that argument.
People weren't running conscripts in every decent imperial list because they were on curve, or because of their offensive potential.
While I like that many of these regiments are going to play very differently, the army-wide rules are...oddly chosen. For instance the Catachan rules will likely end up producing weird Catachan-heavy-artillery armies...where the Valhallans will really just be used for massive vehicle and tank formations (which is fine considering the Soviet/Russian inspired background I guess).
It just seems to me that the special rules are not necessarily very fitting (at all, in some cases) for the regiments they're added to. And, honestly, almost none of the infantry special rules are going to make IG players go "hmmmm, I need to take more infantry!". This is fine I suppose since Guard back in 2nd ed, etc. were really "the" way to take armour. I actually miss the days when IG armour trounced normal Space Marine armour. It gave you a reason to take guard over Space Marines and they played quite differently.
This codex is screaming "powerful" to me. After spending a weekend helping paint my buddy's Steel Legion I was inspired to make a small guard force (which would be run alongside my CSM as traitor guard most likely)...but now I'll have to be careful to not pick something too damn good.
Galas wrote: And, something to think about the Conscripts nerfs. We hare accustomed to the GW swinging balance-bat. When the only balancing change you do is one every 4-5 years, you go big or go home. Thats why many times, very good units become unplayable because they over-nerfed them.
With this new FAQ's, living document, etc... mentality, I'm glad to see that GW is trying a more humble approach. They want to balance Conscripts, not make them totally useless. So even if those changes don't are enough to make them balanced and they are still more powerfull than they should, I think GW will eventually with Chapter Approved, FAQ's, etc... balance them with small nerfs-buffs.
We'll see. Personally I doubt that actually happens. GW is buffing conscripts more than it nerfed them with this codex, which indicates they truly are clueless.
Elbows wrote: While I like that many of these regiments are going to play very differently, the army-wide rules are...oddly chosen. For instance the Catachan rules will likely end up producing weird Catachan-heavy-artillery armies...where the Valhallans will really just be used for massive vehicle and tank formations (which is fine considering the Soviet/Russian inspired background I guess).
It just seems to me that the special rules are not necessarily very fitting (at all, in some cases) for the regiments they're added to. And, honestly, almost none of the infantry special rules are going to make IG players go "hmmmm, I need to take more infantry!". This is fine I suppose since Guard back in 2nd ed, etc. were really "the" way to take armour. I actually miss the days when IG armour trounced normal Space Marine armour. It gave you a reason to take guard over Space Marines and they played quite differently.
This codex is screaming "powerful" to me. After spending a weekend helping paint my buddy's Steel Legion I was inspired to make a small guard force (which would be run alongside my CSM as traitor guard most likely)...but now I'll have to be careful to not pick something too damn good.
I'll go point by point:
1) I think the army wide rules are fine. The Catachans are themed after Vietnam War-era U.S. forces, and their doctrine required precise and shockingly powerful artillery barrages even more often than the famous napalm airstrikes. Valhallans, based on the Soviet Union, should certainly run mass armoured formations (as you rightly point out) but it's worth noting that the stratagems can tip the balance: if the Regiment's unique stratagems focus on Infantry (as the Valhallan example does), then you're only getting half the regimental bonus if you use Tanks (just the Doctrine, not the Stratagems).
2) This... doesn't really make sense to me. IG infantry are doing far better on the tabletop than the tanks; in fact, as a superheavy tank player, I've gone out of my way to include more infantry than ever before because of how much more useful they are than more armour.
3) The codex is very powerful. This probably means that my armoured regiment (which has existed since the 3rd edition Mars pattern baneblade kit from FW was a thing) will probably get accused of bandwagon powergaming, but whatever. Also, Chaos guard are Renegades and Heretics from FW, and are actually fun and interesting if you want to run them in the same army as CSM without violating the detachment faction rules.
Everything they've previewed has been a solid buff, aside from conscripts size and orders. But so far, we've seen global buffs in the form of Doctrines and Strategems, plus specific buffs to units like LRBTs and Baneblades (the former of whom get a price drop) They also hinted that command squads could be larger, but there are no other specific buffs for infanry.
IG, more than any other army, can really milk CPs. A brigade is almost trivial to run at 2000pts, giving us tons of options.
The buffs portrayed so far do seem to make IG armor stronger, which makes sense, given that the collective wisdom after the index was that the best stuff was all infantry: Scions, conscripts, heavy weapon squads. So, making the armor worth taking, especially in an edition in which that was a specific goal, makes sense.
If conscripts are still 3 ppm with no other nerfs, we should toss in the towel on the idea GW could ever actually balance a game.
So it's not possible for them to make further changes in the future? Isn't it better to make incremental nerfs instead of making one huge one and then having to back up?
We'll see. Personally I doubt that actually happens. GW is buffing conscripts more than it nerfed them with this codex, which indicates they truly are clueless.
Well, that's why they outsourced balance and playtesting to the ITC guys for 8th, no?
While catachan is good for basilisk and manticore artillery with harker.
Vahallan definitely makes tank companies and baneblade variants better. Send in the next wave is a nice infantry ability but limited due to deployment.
But we still don't have the complete picture without all orders, relics, strategems, and warlord traits.
I think the conscript nerf may be fine considering how much everything has been buffed. Manticores still suck unless they changed the fact it can't reliably fire until turn 4.
Elbows wrote: While I like that many of these regiments are going to play very differently, the army-wide rules are...oddly chosen. For instance the Catachan rules will likely end up producing weird Catachan-heavy-artillery armies...where the Valhallans will really just be used for massive vehicle and tank formations (which is fine considering the Soviet/Russian inspired background I guess).
Few of the famous regiments really have clear play styles that could be represented on the table top, especially with 8th edition really streamlining terrain. I think for Catachans to play like Death World Veterans, they'd need their own list from the ground up. (Or play as GSC, essentially). The IG codex has, for the most part, represented the fairly standard infantry company, with the mechanized and armored companies now kind of shoehorned in.
What we know about the regiments is generally two things: a type of terrain or battlezone (jungle, ice, desert) or an overriding philosophy (drilled discipline, pride in arms). for the most part, this is background: it explains where they came from, and how they view imperial service.
On the whole though, I think I'd rather they think of 8 different useful doctrines, and then assign them, then try to think of rules that really match each famous regiment.
If conscripts are still 3 ppm with no other nerfs, we should toss in the towel on the idea GW could ever actually balance a game.
So it's not possible for them to make further changes in the future? Isn't it better to make incremental nerfs instead of making one huge one and then having to back up?
It's also entirely possible for them to simply reverse if they go to far. It's also easier to find a point between two known points than one that's only known to be larger/smaller than two known points. Larger balance changes carry no more risk than small ones if the responsiveness is actually true, and given that a single weak unit has far less effect than a single strong unit, there really is no justification for an overwhelming amount of caution here.
So again, if they can't figure out what I just said independently or think they actually fixed conscripts, we shouldn't really hold hope for them managing to balance anything later either.
SilverAlien wrote: We'll see. Personally I doubt that actually happens. GW is buffing conscripts more than it nerfed them with this codex, which indicates they truly are clueless.
Well, that's why they outsourced balance and playtesting to the ITC guys for 8th, no?
Outsourced playtesting, not actual balance adjustments. Whether this means itc aren't very good at actually finding optimized builds or they just ignore feedback and don't make changes to the degree they recommend is debatable, though I find the latter more likely.
Just had a thought about combined squads. This might be a way to run a brigade with 6 infantry squads for troops, but combine them into blobs and have only a couple of drops instead of 6.
That all depends when the stratagem is used, obviously. If it's pre-game like the ravenguard one, then it will reduce the number of drops you have. If it's during the game then it's far less useful.
So it's not possible for them to make further changes in the future? Isn't it better to make incremental nerfs instead of making one huge one and then having to back up?
It's also entirely possible for them to simply reverse if they go to far. It's also easier to find a point between two known points than one that's only known to be larger/smaller than two known points. Larger balance changes carry no more risk than small ones if the responsiveness is actually true, and given that a single weak unit has far less effect than a single strong unit, there really is no justification for an overwhelming amount of caution here.
So again, if they can't figure out what I just said independently or think they actually fixed conscripts, we shouldn't really hold hope for them managing to balance anything later either.
If they don't get it exactly right this time then it's impossible to ever do it? Your absolutism is absurd.
They do carry more risk, because people will flame them for "going back".
That aside if the internal balance of the book is better, which it appears to be, then people will be less likely to use conscripts as their tool over something else.
Yes the entire army being op will indeed minimize the usage of any single element, that's not really hopeful though?
Also, I didn't say they could I said it didn't seem likely.
As for being at risk of being flamed, they are getting flamed no matter what. They are getting flamed for not going far enough now by some, if they nerf them again they will get flamed by people who think they are fine. Honestly the fact no one thinks they went to far, not even hardcore waac players, kinda shows how pointless the change was.
Conscripts as allies to other imperial armies got strictly worse unless the individual is willing to take an entire detachment of IG in his army(using up one of his precious 3). The buffs are only for PURE IG detachments and even then it is mainly units that were not seen before and brings about a variety of lists/play styles that people can play.
We will see how it plays out on the tabletop. I am hoping for a mortars nerf, even if its just making them pay for both wounds on the base(so from 4 to 8) will be a significant aid against that units spam.
Combined squads will actually IMO make regular infantry more valuable than conscripts(however this once again requires dedicating a full detachment to IG.
i actually like where the game is slowly going. Each codex offers some cool strategems and makes the soup armies less and less appealing, the first "imperial" list I put together in 8th had like 4-6 CP, I can't imagine wanting to play my marine or guard force with less than 12 now.
I'd even say some of the strategems in this make the ones in the marine codex look crappy by comparison. I'd have rather had a morale interaction on a 4+ regardless of Commissar for the Conscripts, but I like the line they took on them, if they raised the cost of infantry by 1ppm as well, I'm sold. (saw somewhere else, a rumor that heavy weapons went up 1ppm, so I have hope)
In the deathguard book the new mortar tank had a minimum range of 12 inches, I'd love to see many of the indirect fire weapons in ALL armies have something like that. Not going to happen, but it would nice.
SilverAlien wrote: Yes the entire army being op will indeed minimize the usage of any single element, that's not really hopeful though?
Also, I didn't say they could I said it didn't seem likely.
As for being at risk of being flamed, they are getting flamed no matter what. They are getting flamed for not going far enough now by some, if they nerf them again they will get flamed by people who think they are fine. Honestly the fact no one thinks they went to far, not even hardcore waac players, kinda shows how pointless the change was.
Wow, thanks Nostradamus
I hadn't realized after seeing only a handful of rules all of IG is OP. Good to know!
So if you realize that regardless of what GW does, someone somewhere will flame them then why bother to say you have no hopes in them balancing? Please show me a company that is 100% pure internal balance for their minis game and no one has issues with it.
I get its beyond peoples reasoning/mental ability to get that GW is actually listening to its playing to improve their game, but yes its an actual thing. If all lists are the same, the game gets dull, dull game from your tourney players = trickle down effect to the casual players that will get the mindset of "don't bother with X cause it sucks", and thus a fall in sales.
Instead of being all doom and gloom (hard I know) realize GW is gradually trying to balance, small steps at a time instead of beating something to death so its unusable.
Saevus wrote: i actually like where the game is slowly going. Each codex offers some cool strategems and makes the soup armies less and less appealing, the first "imperial" list I put together in 8th had like 4-6 CP, I can't imagine wanting to play my marine or guard force with less than 12 now.
I'd even say some of the strategems in this make the ones in the marine codex look crappy by comparison. I'd have rather had a morale interaction on a 4+ regardless of Commissar for the Conscripts, but I like the line they took on them, if they raised the cost of infantry by 1ppm as well, I'm sold. (saw somewhere else, a rumor that heavy weapons went up 1ppm, so I have hope)
In the deathguard book the new mortar tank had a minimum range of 12 inches, I'd love to see many of the indirect fire weapons in ALL armies have something like that. Not going to happen, but it would nice.
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Sure for mortars, but just leave my basilisks alone
str00dles1 wrote: I hadn't realized after seeing only a handful of rules all of IG is OP. Good to know!
So if you realize that regardless of what GW does, someone somewhere will flame them then why bother to say you have no hopes in them balancing? Please show me a company that is 100% pure internal balance for their minis game and no one has issues with it.
I get its beyond peoples reasoning/mental ability to get that GW is actually listening to its playing to improve their game, but yes its an actual thing. If all lists are the same, the game gets dull, dull game from your tourney players = trickle down effect to the casual players that will get the mindset of "don't bother with X cause it sucks", and thus a fall in sales.
Instead of being all doom and gloom (hard I know) realize GW is gradually trying to balance, small steps at a time instead of beating something to death so its unusable.
He's the one who was arguing that internal balance would be better so fewer conscripts, which would literally mean more of the army was OP.
There will always be balance issues, but when I can show a unit would still be superior to its competitors if it's price were increased that should be a no brainer to fix. If they can't figure out that's an issue it's a miracle they learned to read and write, or dress themselves for that matter.
Conscripts would, again, be directly superior to almost every other equivalent unit a 4ppm. That's not getting beaten to death, except in the minds of guard players.
Leth wrote: Conscripts as allies to other imperial armies got strictly worse unless the individual is willing to take an entire detachment of IG in his army(using up one of his precious 3). The buffs are only for PURE IG detachments and even then it is mainly units that were not seen before and brings about a variety of lists/play styles that people can play.
Combined squads will actually IMO make regular infantry more valuable than conscripts(however this once again requires dedicating a full detachment to IG.
Everyone already could do this, devoting a battalion to guard isn't in anyways difficult. Imperial soup won't have any issues. Conscripts got buffed for soup lists.
Combined squads slightly increases order efficiency at the cost of cp. I have no idea why people thinks this makes normal infantry better. Your troops job is to act as meatshield and squat on objectives, conscripts do it better with or without combined squads for normal units.
Some comments based on stuff heard from the Warhammer TV stuff:
Some superheavy weapons are being tweaked to be better (WHAT THIS IS AMAZING)
Tallarn Superheavies count all their weapons as Assault (This is pretty good I guess - REALLY good if you love your Heavy Flamers and your Crush Them! stratagem).
Now there are 3 Regiment rules I have to choose from D:
Saevus wrote: i actually like where the game is slowly going. Each codex offers some cool strategems and makes the soup armies less and less appealing, the first "imperial" list I put together in 8th had like 4-6 CP, I can't imagine wanting to play my marine or guard force with less than 12 now.
I'd even say some of the strategems in this make the ones in the marine codex look crappy by comparison. I'd have rather had a morale interaction on a 4+ regardless of Commissar for the Conscripts, but I like the line they took on them, if they raised the cost of infantry by 1ppm as well, I'm sold. (saw somewhere else, a rumor that heavy weapons went up 1ppm, so I have hope)
In the deathguard book the new mortar tank had a minimum range of 12 inches, I'd love to see many of the indirect fire weapons in ALL armies have something like that. Not going to happen, but it would nice.
I like how Stratagems change how we play, they are cool, they do some heavy lifting, and really change your army layout. Being forced to NOT take "da best unit" 6 times and actually diversify your army to fill in those elite and fast attack slots really has invigorated my lists and forced me to try all new units.
It looks like these new stratagems have more flavor and really are characterful to what guard is. I think space marines suffered from having more generic ones because they themselves are on the "generic" scale when it comes to tactics and game play. I imagine down the road they will fill out the stratagems in newer books.
As for infantry and point changes, my personal bet is that all infantry get a point increase of 1 ppm to compensate for these new rules and stratagems.
greyknight12 wrote: I was hoping there would be a nerf to conscript's commissar benefits...imo that is the real issue with their durability.
This is the main issue. 3ppm and basically being fearless makes for the best area denial unit in the game by a long margin. Squad size nerf is laughable, I was running 30 man group in my lists already. Order nerf is a thing although with a command reroll thats a 75% shot at the order you wanted anyway. Still nice, however it is more then made up for by doctrines. Suddenly I don't need to fight twice when my conscripts are s4, yet I still can half the time. I still think commissars should have provided their leadership to nearby units and a reroll to failed moral. I like the idea of him executing a guardsmen to keep them in line, but currently it's far to easy to abuse.
Dunno. Flavour aside, Strategems seem to make 40K even more a 1-2 turn game than it already is.
People burn through command points in the early game, because most are best used when your army is at full potential, meaning things are more effective/efficient turn 1 and possibly turn 2, meaning those turns are even more important (or loopsided) in determining the outcome of the overall game.
I would love to see GW add some mechanics for better strategems that only work later in the game and/or mechanisms where you have more CP if you save them for a few turns or some such, to give more incentives to play/plan for beyond turn 3 or 4.
Wonderwolf wrote: Dunno. Flavour aside, Strategems seem to make 40K even more a 1-2 turn game than it already is.
People burn through command points in the early game, because most are best used when your army is at full potential, meaning things are more effective/efficient turn 1 and possibly turn 2, meaning those turns are even more important (or loopsided) in determining the outcome of the overall game.
I would love to see GW add some mechanics for better strategems that only work later in the game and/or mechanisms where you have more CP if you save them for a few turns or some such, to give more incentives to play/plan for beyond turn 3 or 4.
Eh this is highly dependent on the stratagem you are using. My superheavy tanks will love the Crush Them! stratagem, but untimely use will just be a massive failure (and could actually be detrimental). Similarly, using Send In The Next Wave is incredibly situational.
Wonderwolf wrote: Dunno. Flavour aside, Strategems seem to make 40K even more a 1-2 turn game than it already is.
People burn through command points in the early game, because most are best used when your army is at full potential, meaning things are more effective/efficient turn 1 and possibly turn 2, meaning those turns are even more important (or loopsided) in determining the outcome of the overall game.
I would love to see GW add some mechanics for better strategems that only work later in the game and/or mechanisms where you have more CP if you save them for a few turns or some such, to give more incentives to play/plan for beyond turn 3 or 4.
That's a failure on the part of Command Points though.
If they replenished or had some other mechanic beyond "You get more for building your army a certain way", I could see it being a wildly different situation.
Eh this is highly dependent on the stratagem you are using. My superheavy tanks will love the Crush Them! stratagem, but untimely use will just be a massive failure (and could actually be detrimental). Similarly, using Send In The Next Wave is incredibly situational.
True. Though I doubt anyone will ever use Send the Next Wave should it really cost reinforcement points.
Just meaning "Strategems in General". Re-rolls, shoot twice, etc., etc..
Most games I played, they are disproportionally used early in the game. Along with 1st turn Deep Strike, etc.., it feels Turn 1 is more important even than it already was previously.
I know they're objective cheap, but let's not completely ignore the cost of the commissar when looking at conscripts. Even if you have one commissar for two 30 man squads, that makes the squads 3.5 pts a piece, effectively. It's a cost effective and very strong module, but it does require outside support pieces, which have non-zero costs.
We also don't know the final commissar rules. They could increase their cost, change the way summary execution works, reduce the range, or even put a LD floor on summary execution.
OTOH, if conscripts exist as things, there is still a secret weapon in the IG toolbox: Insance Bravery. IG can have a huge number of command points, and for two CP, you can keep a conscript squad intact, no questions asked.
Polonius wrote: I know they're objective cheap, but let's not completely ignore the cost of the commissar when looking at conscripts. Even if you have one commissar for two 30 man squads, that makes the squads 3.5 pts a piece, effectively. It's a cost effective and very strong module, but it does require outside support pieces, which have non-zero costs.
We also don't know the final commissar rules. They could increase their cost, change the way summary execution works, reduce the range, or even put a LD floor on summary execution.
OTOH, if conscripts exist as things, there is still a secret weapon in the IG toolbox: Insance Bravery. IG can have a huge number of command points, and for two CP, you can keep a conscript squad intact, no questions asked.
There's also Inquisitors who, while the same price as a Lord commissar, can deny enemy psychic powers and are pretty fighty, while at the same time can completely prevent a conscript squad from suffering any morale casualties at all (though you'd need one per squad).
Tallarn Infantry units can Advance and fire any weapon type except Heavy. When they do so they do not suffer the usual penalties to hit for Assault weapons.
Vehicles do not suffer the penalty to their hit rolls for moving and firing Heavy weapons. Titanic Vehicle can Advances and fire and then it treats all Heavy weapons it is equipped with as Assault weapons until the end of the turn.
Cadian Re-roll hits of 1 in shooting phase if they didn't move in the previous movement phase. If an Infantry unit with this Doctrine is issued Take Aim! and did not move in the previous movement phase, re-roll all failed hits.
Militarum Tempestus Get an extra shot with their guns for each 6+ to hit when the target is within half range.
Steel Legion Infantry double their rapid fire at 18" instead of half range. Steel Legion Vehicles treat AP -1 as AP 0.
The Scion doctrine is actually pretty optimized for plasma drops. It gets them back up to almost the same efficiency as Elysians if plasma guns did not increase in price (prediction: plasma guns increased in price).
I'm kind of glad for Imperial Guard players that they get a cool codex full of fluffy rules and powerful stratagems, but I can't help thinking it's almost provocative to release a codex like that after GW has half-pissed the AdMech codex with half of the forge-worlds being useless and so few rework/points adjustments on units that desperately need it. Meanwhile IG gets cheap stratagems to have lightning-fast Baneblades charging in CC and Skaven-like orders (so basically a free stratagem) to shoot in a CC unit.
I have to add they'd better forbid Conscripts to be affected by a Commissar, because that nerf is ridiculous, it solves none of the problems people are experiencing with them.
GW should've forbid the use of multiple different <Regiment>, <Chapter> and such in a battleforged army in Matched Play. Right now people are not playing one single <Group> for the fluff of it, they're playing the best fitting units for each <Group> rules to min/max and rape the fluff. Our tactica is full of lists with two to three <Forge-Worlds> and they're forced to do that in competitive because our army is so underpowered we're stuck to a few key units and we fill the rest with Imperium soup. How sad can this be ?
Wonderwolf wrote: Dunno. Flavour aside, Strategems seem to make 40K even more a 1-2 turn game than it already is.
People burn through command points in the early game, because most are best used when your army is at full potential, meaning things are more effective/efficient turn 1 and possibly turn 2, meaning those turns are even more important (or loopsided) in determining the outcome of the overall game.
I would love to see GW add some mechanics for better strategems that only work later in the game and/or mechanisms where you have more CP if you save them for a few turns or some such, to give more incentives to play/plan for beyond turn 3 or 4.
Eh this is highly dependent on the stratagem you are using. My superheavy tanks will love the Crush Them! stratagem, but untimely use will just be a massive failure (and could actually be detrimental). Similarly, using Send In The Next Wave is incredibly situational.
I'm going to try out the 3CP VotexStrike on my Deathstrike if that's not defensive play until turn 3-4 I don't know how else you could achieve it. I play with friends and we have a ton of terrain and LOS blockers and we routinely go into later rounds with the games tight.
Tallarn Infantry units can Advance and fire any weapon type except Heavy. When they do so they do not suffer the usual penalties to hit for Assault weapons.
Vehicles do not suffer the penalty to their hit rolls for moving and firing Heavy weapons. Titanic Vehicle can Advances and fire and then it treats all Heavy weapons it is equipped with as Assault weapons until the end of the turn.
Cadian Re-roll hits of 1 in shooting phase if they didn't move in the previous movement phase. If an Infantry unit with this Doctrine is issued Take Aim! and did not move in the previous movement phase, re-roll all failed hits.
Militarum Tempestus Get an extra shot with their guns for each 6+ to hit when the target is within half range.
Steel Legion Infantry double their rapid fire at 18" instead of half range. Steel Legion Vehicles treat AP -1 as AP 0.
I was hoping steel legion would be great for transports, but... it looks to be the big loser of the 8 regiments.
This is still missing the rule for Cadian vehicles - unless they are also twin linked with 'Gunners, Kill on Sight!', instead of 'Take Aim'.
Aaranis wrote: I'm kind of glad for Imperial Guard players that they get a cool codex full of fluffy rules and powerful stratagems, but I can't help thinking it's almost provocative to release a codex like that after GW has half-pissed the AdMech codex with half of the forge-worlds being useless and so few rework/points adjustments on units that desperately need it. Meanwhile IG gets cheap stratagems to have lightning-fast Baneblades charging in CC and Skaven-like orders (so basically a free stratagem) to shoot in a CC unit.
I have to add they'd better forbid Conscripts to be affected by a Commissar, because that nerf is ridiculous, it solves none of the problems people are experiencing with them.
GW should've forbid the use of multiple different <Regiment>, <Chapter> and such in a battleforged army in Matched Play. Right now people are not playing one single <Group> for the fluff of it, they're playing the best fitting units for each <Group> rules to min/max and rape the fluff. Our tactica is full of lists with two to three <Forge-Worlds> and they're forced to do that in competitive because our army is so underpowered we're stuck to a few key units and we fill the rest with Imperium soup. How sad can this be ?
I feel like this because I feel bad for Admech and also feel bad for any future codex! I know Orks have had it ruff for the last few editions and our index is clearly showing splits now these codecies are out (it was already flawed in many way with poor units nobody would want) so I am scared GW will be like "Here!" and it's just a copy and paste of the index with nerfs only. XD If they do that I won't be buying from them ever again.
Are we going to talk about the fact that a punisher now fires 40 shots per turn?
If the point cost remains the same, or even if it sees a slight point increase, it sounds pretty insane.
Even with a small points increase (on the weapon), the basic punisher should remain well under 200pts. That's 20 hits of a S5 weapon and about 13 wounds on most units.
Then, there's the impact of tank commanders on top of that. Right now it's +35pts for BS3+ and +45pts for BS2+ with Pask.
I'm wondering how much a tank commander on a punisher will cost in the codex. Right now it's 195ts (without HB sponsons) or 211pts (with the sponsons).
But if you make it from valhalla, you get to keep your BS3+ as long as you have at least 3 wounds. Which makes it rather competitive in my eyes.
And couldn't you have a pair of valhallan tank commanders in punishers to give each other the "kill on sight" order every turn? Granted it's a bit expensive (400+pts) but if my math is right this combo delivers 60 S5 hits per turn which means 40 wounds on most infantry models (and I haven't even taken the HBs into account so you can add a few to that). You're basically wiping out two light infantry units per turn. And your opponent needs to take out at least 10 wounds off your T8 tanks to even start affecting your firepower.
I know there'll be much better things to do with the codex, but for some reason this seems like fun.
Imperial Guard buffs? It's already the strongest army in the game and it just got way better. Conscript barely got a nerf given how good this codex is.
My faith that GW can balance has been shattered. Zero hope for other factions.
I wonder if the new points changes and possible similar strategems will be included in the Genestealer Cult Codex... considering they borrow from the Guard and can take an allied detachment of them.
Carnikang wrote: I wonder if the new points changes and possible similar strategems will be included in the Genestealer Cult Codex... considering they borrow from the Guard and can take an allied detachment of them.
I've been wondering the same thing. I am right now assembling Genestealer Cult models. I have a 5 boxes of plastic Cadians, and every time I look at the pile of plastic I think about the new AM Codex (and GS Codex).
And... Edit. Just noticed Post 100! I mostly lurk.
Those Tallarn buffs seem meh to me. As someone who runs heavy weapons teams within infantry squads, I can't take advantage of the advance buff. The vehicles not getting -1 on heavy weapons is nice, but I don't own any baneblades and now I feel forced to buy one just to justify running a Tallarn regiment. Here's to hopeing they get a solid order and some decent stratagems.
Edit: I see now the doctrine is geared towards an advancing plasma gun spam ( and maybe demo charges?, still seems meh). This is going to take some kitbashing...
Twoshoes23 wrote: The vehicles not getting -1 on heavy weapons is nice, but I don't own any baneblades and now I feel forced to buy one just to justify running a Tallarn regiment..
I believe all Baneblade vehicles now ignore the move and fire heavy penalty.
There is still a lot we don't know.
Warlord traits
Relics
Most strategems
Any new orders
And lots of changes to rules and points...
However I think the big winners are valhallans with a strong showing for catachan.
I like steel legion though how competitive it is undetermined. 18in makes frfsrf brutal and the no -1ap is nice.
Militarum tempestus still are great for plasma drops.
I play a very mech heavy tallarn list and I'm very happy my russ's and sentinels no longer get a -1 its quite good along with all the other stratagems etc.
I play a very mech heavy tallarn list and I'm very happy my russ's and sentinels no longer get a -1 its quite good along with all the other stratagems etc.
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Forgot it works on sentinels as well, maybe I was a bit hasty.
Yeah tallarn would really work well for an aggressive player. Almost all our vehicles have heavy weapons that have penalties on the move, Chimeras, sentinels, russes, devil dogs, Valkyries, etc. etc. Ignoring the penalty for moving would give you a surprisingly quick army compared to the average guard army. Superheavies advancing and firing could be kind of nuts too, although I'm not really sure why you would do it. Makes sense, they're supposed to be masterful tank commanders.
Nogil wrote: Cadian Re-roll hits of 1 in shooting phase if they didn't move in the previous movement phase. If an Infantry unit with this Doctrine is issued Take Aim! and did not move in the previous movement phase, re-roll all failed hits.
Luke_Prowler wrote:Hell, we don't know what Cadians are getting, they might just get reoll 1s on everythings and pask will basicly be a tank driving god.
Nogil wrote: Cadian Re-roll hits of 1 in shooting phase if they didn't move in the previous movement phase. If an Infantry unit with this Doctrine is issued Take Aim! and did not move in the previous movement phase, re-roll all failed hits.
Luke_Prowler wrote:Hell, we don't know what Cadians are getting, they might just get reoll 1s on everythings and pask will basicly be a tank driving god.
GW, I was joking
I've seen a lot of Cadian players complaining but honestly their benefit looks amazing. Heavy weapons teams with take aim will re-roll all misses. Always. That is insane. Its going to make Lascannons/Mortars etc that much more effective. Its like having a pocket Yarrick/Harker on your entire army for free.
I was expecting Cadians to get something to do with orders - units can take multiple orders, officers can issue more, etc. This is effectively giving the entire army Take Aim, i suppose, but... eh?
Nice to see that the 'AM will be nerfed to the ground' fear mongering was proven to be nothing but background noise.
Based on these tidbits of information, GW has buffed at least some bad stuff, and added some quality of life improvements for mediocre stuff. The good and great units remain useful, if not even better. I think this round of buffs for the AM will keep them competitive vs the standard expected codex creep.
Carnikang wrote: I wonder if the new points changes and possible similar strategems will be included in the Genestealer Cult Codex... considering they borrow from the Guard and can take an allied detachment of them.
I've been wondering the same thing. I am right now assembling Genestealer Cult models. I have a 5 boxes of plastic Cadians, and every time I look at the pile of plastic I think about the new AM Codex (and GS Codex).
And... Edit. Just noticed Post 100! I mostly lurk.
I think Valhallan tactics would work very well for a Brood Brothers detachment, thematically.
Tallarn Infantry units can Advance and fire any weapon type except Heavy. When they do so they do not suffer the usual penalties to hit for Assault weapons.
Vehicles do not suffer the penalty to their hit rolls for moving and firing Heavy weapons. Titanic Vehicle can Advances and fire and then it treats all Heavy weapons it is equipped with as Assault weapons until the end of the turn.
Cadian Re-roll hits of 1 in shooting phase if they didn't move in the previous movement phase. If an Infantry unit with this Doctrine is issued Take Aim! and did not move in the previous movement phase, re-roll all failed hits.
Militarum Tempestus Get an extra shot with their guns for each 6+ to hit when the target is within half range.
Steel Legion Infantry double their rapid fire at 18" instead of half range. Steel Legion Vehicles treat AP -1 as AP 0.
I was hoping steel legion would be great for transports, but... it looks to be the big loser of the 8 regiments.
This is still missing the rule for Cadian vehicles - unless they are also twin linked with 'Gunners, Kill on Sight!', instead of 'Take Aim'.
Sorry for not being clear enough - the Cadian is for both infantry AND vehicle.
Tallarn Infantry units can Advance and fire any weapon type except Heavy. When they do so they do not suffer the usual penalties to hit for Assault weapons.
Vehicles do not suffer the penalty to their hit rolls for moving and firing Heavy weapons. Titanic Vehicle can Advances and fire and then it treats all Heavy weapons it is equipped with as Assault weapons until the end of the turn.
Cadian Re-roll hits of 1 in shooting phase if they didn't move in the previous movement phase. If an Infantry unit with this Doctrine is issued Take Aim! and did not move in the previous movement phase, re-roll all failed hits.
Militarum Tempestus Get an extra shot with their guns for each 6+ to hit when the target is within half range.
Steel Legion Infantry double their rapid fire at 18" instead of half range. Steel Legion Vehicles treat AP -1 as AP 0.
I was hoping steel legion would be great for transports, but... it looks to be the big loser of the 8 regiments.
This is still missing the rule for Cadian vehicles - unless they are also twin linked with 'Gunners, Kill on Sight!', instead of 'Take Aim'.
Sorry for not being clear enough - the Cadian is for both infantry AND vehicle.
Hahahahhahahahahahahahahah!
Sorry for the immature response but that's just insane beyond belief. Free 'Take Aim!' orders on every single infantry and army wide Harker on every single vehicle, including Pask that gets to shoots twice now. Holy gak that's just obnoxious. I was hoping that people would spit less on me when I walk into the store with my IG, now I don't even dare to enter the store..
Tallarn Infantry units can Advance and fire any weapon type except Heavy. When they do so they do not suffer the usual penalties to hit for Assault weapons.
Vehicles do not suffer the penalty to their hit rolls for moving and firing Heavy weapons. Titanic Vehicle can Advances and fire and then it treats all Heavy weapons it is equipped with as Assault weapons until the end of the turn.
Cadian Re-roll hits of 1 in shooting phase if they didn't move in the previous movement phase. If an Infantry unit with this Doctrine is issued Take Aim! and did not move in the previous movement phase, re-roll all failed hits.
Militarum Tempestus Get an extra shot with their guns for each 6+ to hit when the target is within half range.
Steel Legion Infantry double their rapid fire at 18" instead of half range. Steel Legion Vehicles treat AP -1 as AP 0.
I was hoping steel legion would be great for transports, but... it looks to be the big loser of the 8 regiments.
This is still missing the rule for Cadian vehicles - unless they are also twin linked with 'Gunners, Kill on Sight!', instead of 'Take Aim'.
Sorry for not being clear enough - the Cadian is for both infantry AND vehicle.
Hahahahhahahahahahahahahah!
Sorry for the immature response but that's just insane beyond belief. Free 'Take Aim!' orders on every single infantry and army wide Harker on every single vehicle, including Pask that gets to shoots twice now. Holy gak that's just obnoxious. I was hoping that people would spit less on me when I walk into the store with my IG, now I don't even dare to enter the store..
That's actually pretty sweet. But is it better than Valhallans? What's the Cadian stratagem?
Crazyterran wrote: I was expecting Cadians to get something to do with orders - units can take multiple orders, officers can issue more, etc. This is effectively giving the entire army Take Aim, i suppose, but... eh?
They used to have a Sarge that could issue orders to his squad. Only cool Cadian character.
.... still no input on which is the best for my superheavy regiment?
Cadians are a non-starter, as bringing Trojans means I re-roll all misses anyways.
Tallarn are fun because high mobility baneblades sounds badass.
Valhallans are fun to keep them shooting longer, but the regimental doctrine will probably only work on one tank at a time if the opponent is smart.
Catachans are an incremental firepower increase, which is okay but not AMAZING really. Too many 2d6/highest or 2d6 weapons.
Vostroyans look nice and will help out the siege tanks and secondary weapons, but the range on most main guns is so long that it's rather pointless (woo 78" range baneblade cannon...)
Putting the overall strength of the army aside for a moment, I like how it's not obvious which regiment is best. There are good options available for all of them.
It's also good that they didn't just copy and paste the space marine chapter tactics and stratagems.
So far, so good, basically. Now if there's a slight increase in infantry prices we'll have a pretty cool codex.
Aaranis wrote: I'm kind of glad for Imperial Guard players that they get a cool codex full of fluffy rules and powerful stratagems, but I can't help thinking it's almost provocative to release a codex like that after GW has half-pissed the AdMech codex with half of the forge-worlds being useless and so few rework/points adjustments on units that desperately need it. Meanwhile IG gets cheap stratagems to have lightning-fast Baneblades charging in CC and Skaven-like orders (so basically a free stratagem) to shoot in a CC unit.
I feel like you haven't seen the AdMech stratagems.
Aaranis wrote: I'm kind of glad for Imperial Guard players that they get a cool codex full of fluffy rules and powerful stratagems, but I can't help thinking it's almost provocative to release a codex like that after GW has half-pissed the AdMech codex with half of the forge-worlds being useless and so few rework/points adjustments on units that desperately need it. Meanwhile IG gets cheap stratagems to have lightning-fast Baneblades charging in CC and Skaven-like orders (so basically a free stratagem) to shoot in a CC unit.
I feel like you haven't seen the AdMech stratagems.
Someone in YMDC has pointed out that there is an AdMech stratagem which allows you to shoot in any phase for 1CP. Allowing a unit of 6 Kastellans to fire 378 times in one turn for 6CP.
Nobody's actually going to play it that way, so it doesn't seem to speak to anything other than perhaps GW's alleged laziness in putting together the AdMech codex. It does seem to me that AdMech players can reasonably be annoyed that Mars Robots got even better while nothing else is particularly compelling, even if you could probably get something out of Dragoons and maybe deep-striking Electropriests now. As far as internal balance goes, it'd be a bit like if Conscripts were getting buffed while Leman Russes got a minor point decrease and nothing else. Certainly Guard players have seemed much happier with the previews they've been getting.
That said, obviously it's not like GW should have half-assed the Guard codex just because the AdMech codex is supposedly bad. And, I mean, if they could only do a good job with one of them it definitely makes sense to have it be Guard.
People that think the admech codex is bad are crazy. That book is one of the stronger releases. They equate a low number of changes to unit entries from the index to the codex as a bad thing somehow when all it really means is that they were one of the more balanced index armies. Which they were. The FW doctrines are mostly solid and the stratagems takes the army past 11 most of the time.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Back on topic, now that the cadian doctrine was clarified I think they move into the winning seat possibly. Thats a lot of free take aim, on tanks to boot, gross.
Ogryn Bodyguard! A generic HQ (Or elite?) Ogryn hero! This inconsistence is a little baffling even if I prefer it to a strict no model-no rules policy. So you have Ogryn Bodyguard and Dreadknight Grandmaster but your possessed can't have DR or your BLightlords can't take Powerfists
Ogryn Bodyguard! A generic HQ (Or elite?) Ogryn hero! This inconsistence is a little baffling even if I prefer it to a strict no model-no rules policy. So you have Ogryn Bodyguard and Dreadknight Grandmaster but your possessed can't have DR or your BLightlords can't take Powerfists
gendoikari87 wrote: Uh that's vague wording at 11" are you still firing 2 shots or 4? I think it's trying to say you extend the rapid fire range to 18"
Their example is 36 at 18" so is that assuming a hwt in the mix with frfsrf?
No it means the basic infantry squad sergeant still has ccw and laspistol. 9x4=36
gendoikari87 wrote: Uh that's vague wording at 11" are you still firing 2 shots or 4? I think it's trying to say you extend the rapid fire range to 18"
Their example is 36 at 18" so is that assuming a hwt in the mix with frfsrf?
You need to forget all the wording from previous editions. The current Rapid Fire wording is basically the same as this doctrine.
Apparently rough riders are gone from the codex
But I seriously hope some gw designer has the foresight to make the new necromunda plastics into penal legion 40k rules.
gungo wrote: Apparently rough riders are gone from the codex
But I seriously hope some gw designer has the foresight to make the new necromunda plastics into penal legion 40k rules.
Expected, but they're in the Index so no actual loss
'Using these rules in tandem, you’ll be able to do maximum damage when disembarking, then re-embark and redeploy without losing a turn of shooting. Armageddon mechanised infantry are going to be very, very hard to pin down in the new codex.'
Sounds like this is confirmation that GW are literally incapable of reading their own rules or even understand them.
Doubt all you want. That's still embarrassing. If they didn't have such a long standing history of being incompetent at reading rules, I actually accuse this commercial article of gross deception and false advertising.
'Using these rules in tandem, you’ll be able to do maximum damage when disembarking, then re-embark and redeploy without losing a turn of shooting. Armageddon mechanised infantry are going to be very, very hard to pin down in the new codex.'
Sounds like this is confirmation that GW are literally incapable of reading their own rules or even understand them.
Zewrath wrote: Doubt all you want. That's still embarrassing. If they didn't have such a long standing history of being incompetent at reading rules, I actually accuse this commercial article of gross deception and false advertising.
I read it as saying disembark shoot, then shoot and embark. You're not losing a shooting phase to do this.
That said, I'm not sure that I see much point in using the order.
The transport can't move after you embark, since you're embarking in your shooting phase. And then if you want to disembark on your next turn, you have to do it before the transport moves. So all you're gaining here is the ability to redeploy on the other side of a transport, and protection from shooting for a turn (of course, you were vulnerable on the previous turn when you disembarked). After all, if you don't intend to disembark immediately, you could have just embarked at the start of the next movement phase instead of using the order.
Dionysodorus wrote: That said, I'm not sure that I see much point in using the order.
The transport can't move after you embark, since you're embarking in your shooting phase. And then if you want to disembark on your next turn, you have to do it before the transport moves. So all you're gaining here is the ability to redeploy on the other side of a transport, and protection from shooting for a turn (of course, you were vulnerable on the previous turn when you disembarked).
This makes sense, but I could also see it being of some situational utility, e.g. after falling back to shoot and then hop in a transport.
'Using these rules in tandem, you’ll be able to do maximum damage when disembarking, then re-embark and redeploy without losing a turn of shooting. Armageddon mechanised infantry are going to be very, very hard to pin down in the new codex.'
Sounds like this is confirmation that GW are literally incapable of reading their own rules or even understand them.
Yes... I know? That's the the issue that I have with the article, because that's not what it says. The article make sound like you can disembark --> shoot --> immediately embark again. That's why they then go on to say that's the supposed reason that they are hard to pin down... but they aren't. If they can't re-embark immediately, like White Scars could in 7th, they are dead. That's a useless order, issued on what ever remains from the guys who had to wither an entire turn of shooting.
Zewrath wrote: Doubt all you want. That's still embarrassing. If they didn't have such a long standing history of being incompetent at reading rules, I actually accuse this commercial article of gross deception and false advertising.
I read it as saying disembark shoot, then shoot and embark. You're not losing a shooting phase to do this.
Steel Legion hopping out 18" away to rapid fire their plasma, then getting assaulted, then falling back, rapid firing again, and hopping into their transport sounds hilarious and trollish.
'Using these rules in tandem, you’ll be able to do maximum damage when disembarking, then re-embark and redeploy without losing a turn of shooting. Armageddon mechanised infantry are going to be very, very hard to pin down in the new codex.'
Sounds like this is confirmation that GW are literally incapable of reading their own rules or even understand them.
Seeing as how you Embark(and Disembark) during Movement, you would lose a Shooting phase if you Embarked without this Order.
By doing it like this, you Disembark during your Movement phase and then you can Shoot normally.
The next turn, instead of Embarking you can use this Order and fire then Embark.
Steel Legion hopping out 18" away to rapid fire their plasma, then getting assaulted, then falling back, rapid firing again, and hopping into their transport sounds hilarious and trollish.
And impossible because you'd have to issue 'Get Back Into The Fight!' If you wish for them to do anything and they can't receive more than one order.
Steel Legion hopping out 18" away to rapid fire their plasma, then getting assaulted, then falling back, rapid firing again, and hopping into their transport sounds hilarious and trollish.
And impossible because you'd have to issue 'Get Back Into The Fight!' If you wish for them to do anything and they can't receive more than one order.
Why do you have to do get back in the fight? Specific overrides general, and this order says very specifically they may shoot and embark if they received this order, overriding any general rule that may prevent them from doing so (including but not limited to falling back). Unless something prevents falling back units from receiving orders other than GBITF, this order should work.
'Using these rules in tandem, you’ll be able to do maximum damage when disembarking, then re-embark and redeploy without losing a turn of shooting. Armageddon mechanised infantry are going to be very, very hard to pin down in the new codex.'
Sounds like this is confirmation that GW are literally incapable of reading their own rules or even understand them.
Seeing as how you Embark(and Disembark) during Movement, you would lose a Shooting phase if you Embarked without this Order.
By doing it like this, you Disembark during your Movement phase and then you can Shoot normally.
The next turn, instead of Embarking you can use this Order and fire then Embark.
Yes, see the post above, explaining I know this and why it's not actually what the article implies, nor is the actual order good as stated above.
'Using these rules in tandem, you’ll be able to do maximum damage when disembarking, then re-embark and redeploy without losing a turn of shooting. Armageddon mechanised infantry are going to be very, very hard to pin down in the new codex.'
Sounds like this is confirmation that GW are literally incapable of reading their own rules or even understand them.
Seeing as how you Embark(and Disembark) during Movement, you would lose a Shooting phase if you Embarked without this Order.
By doing it like this, you Disembark during your Movement phase and then you can Shoot normally.
The next turn, instead of Embarking you can use this Order and fire then Embark.
Yes, see the post above, explaining I know this and why it's not actually what the article implies, nor is the actual order good as stated above.
All the article says is that using them in tandem allows you to Disembark and Embark without losing a turn of shooting.
Did you really think that it would let you ignore the rules in place about Embarking/Disembarking in the same turn?
Unit1126PLL wrote: I still think you're underestimating the order by assuming it doesn't work on units that fall back.
Usually the way this kind of interaction works is that the rule actually needs to tell you that it over-rides other restrictions, unless it must over-ride those other restrictions in order to do anything. This looks like it's just telling you that you can embark in your shooting phase, and you even get to shoot normally before you do it. Like, you'll note that "Get Back in the Fight!" doesn't just read: "The ordered unit can shoot this phase."
'Using these rules in tandem, you’ll be able to do maximum damage when disembarking, then re-embark and redeploy without losing a turn of shooting. Armageddon mechanised infantry are going to be very, very hard to pin down in the new codex.'
Sounds like this is confirmation that GW are literally incapable of reading their own rules or even understand them.
Seeing as how you Embark(and Disembark) during Movement, you would lose a Shooting phase if you Embarked without this Order.
By doing it like this, you Disembark during your Movement phase and then you can Shoot normally.
The next turn, instead of Embarking you can use this Order and fire then Embark.
Yes, see the post above, explaining I know this and why it's not actually what the article implies, nor is the actual order good as stated above.
All the article says is that using them in tandem allows you to Disembark and Embark without losing a turn of shooting.
Did you really think that it would let you ignore the rules in place about Embarking/Disembarking in the same turn?
And this post confirms Kanluwen apparently doesn't know what special rules are, or just play pretends that they don't exist!
GBITF allows you to ignore rules about falling back, Harlequins have rules that allows you to Assault after advancing, Fly has rules for shooting after falling back. It's astonishing that you can use that argument with a straight face or ignore the fact that the article make it sound like it works like a rule that literally existed in several iterations before. Top kek.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I still think you're underestimating the order by assuming it doesn't work on units that fall back.
Usually the way this kind of interaction works is that the rule actually needs to tell you that it over-rides other restrictions, unless it must over-ride those other restrictions in order to do anything. This looks like it's just telling you that you can embark in your shooting phase, and you even get to shoot normally before you do it. Like, you'll note that "Get Back in the Fight!" doesn't just read: "The ordered unit can shoot this phase."
I actually agree with you. I also actually agree with you that it wasn't intended to let you shoot after falling back.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I still think you're underestimating the order by assuming it doesn't work on units that fall back.
Usually the way this kind of interaction works is that the rule actually needs to tell you that it over-rides other restrictions, unless it must over-ride those other restrictions in order to do anything. This looks like it's just telling you that you can embark in your shooting phase, and you even get to shoot normally before you do it. Like, you'll note that "Get Back in the Fight!" doesn't just read: "The ordered unit can shoot this phase."
I actually agree with you. I also actually agree with you that it wasn't intended to let you shoot after falling back.
I also think it does anyways.
Yeah, after rereading the order, I must concede that I agree with you on this one. It looks like what you're suggesting is indeed possible.
'Using these rules in tandem, you’ll be able to do maximum damage when disembarking, then re-embark and redeploy without losing a turn of shooting. Armageddon mechanised infantry are going to be very, very hard to pin down in the new codex.'
Sounds like this is confirmation that GW are literally incapable of reading their own rules or even understand them.
Seeing as how you Embark(and Disembark) during Movement, you would lose a Shooting phase if you Embarked without this Order.
By doing it like this, you Disembark during your Movement phase and then you can Shoot normally. The next turn, instead of Embarking you can use this Order and fire then Embark.
Yes, see the post above, explaining I know this and why it's not actually what the article implies, nor is the actual order good as stated above.
All the article says is that using them in tandem allows you to Disembark and Embark without losing a turn of shooting.
Did you really think that it would let you ignore the rules in place about Embarking/Disembarking in the same turn?
And this post confirms Kanluwen apparently doesn't know what special rules are, or just play pretends that they don't exist!
GBITF allows you to ignore rules about falling back, Harlequins have rules that allows you to Assault after advancing, Fly has rules for shooting after falling back. It's astonishing that you can use that argument with a straight face or ignore the fact that the article make it sound like it works like a rule that literally existed in several iterations before. Top kek.
The article has a picture right above the blurb that suggests ways things work in tandem.
Once again: Disembark during your Movement phase. -Shoot Embark during your next Movement phase. -Can't shoot.
That's the normal order of operations.
For Steel Legion, it can be this: Disembark during your Movement phase -"Armoured Fist" Stratagem -Shoot Next Turn don't Embark during Movement. -"Mount Up!" issued. -Shoot+Embark
Amazing how one can figure these things out without having to pretend like they do not know how things work.
nintura wrote: Really? So now the Punisher Russ can shoot 40 times with just it's turret? Is that REALLY necessary?
I'm not sure, on the one hand it finally feels like a brutal vulcan minigun tank should. But how does it work in game? It's just another example of how things in the real world don't always translate to a game.
I will say these rules really make me want to rebuild my guard, but still the only thing stopping me from giving money to GW is that there is still no plastic regimental infantry. I would like to have Mordians, but I don't want them bad enough to go looking for those old metal ugos.
I'm not too impressed with the Steel Legion, but those relics are pretty sweet.
The Ghost of CP Past is an easy use of the buy-a-relic stratagem even if you don't want to have a Guard warlord. Pays for itself pretty quickly.
The power sword upgrade is perfectly decent. Better than the Space Marine version (of course you tend to get fewer attacks).
The deep strike dagger is actually really interesting, RAW (I'm pretty sure this is getting faq'd). You can deep strike any INFANTRY unit in your army, but if the bearer of the relic has a <REGIMENT> keyword, then the unit you deep strike must have the same one. But if the bearer doesn't have a <REGIMENT> keyword, it's completely unrestricted. So you hand this to a Commissar and then you deep strike a unit of Custodes.
nintura wrote: Really? So now the Punisher Russ can shoot 40 times with just it's turret? Is that REALLY necessary?
I'm not sure, on the one hand it finally feels like a brutal vulcan minigun tank should. But how does it work in game? It's just another example of how things in the real world don't always translate to a game.
I will say these rules really make me want to rebuild my guard, but still the only thing stopping me from giving money to GW is that there is still no plastic regimental infantry. I would like to have Mordians, but I don't want them bad enough to go looking for those old metal ugos.
nintura wrote: Really? So now the Punisher Russ can shoot 40 times with just it's turret? Is that REALLY necessary?
I'm not sure, on the one hand it finally feels like a brutal vulcan minigun tank should. But how does it work in game? It's just another example of how things in the real world don't always translate to a game.
I will say these rules really make me want to rebuild my guard, but still the only thing stopping me from giving money to GW is that there is still no plastic regimental infantry. I would like to have Mordians, but I don't want them bad enough to go looking for those old metal ugos.
Victoria minis legs and heads then?
Full disclosure:
I'm one of those jackasses who really want an official product. I'm not a very good modeler, I don't like working with Resin. I actually like to move to monopose because of the fact i have a deficiency in building.
I share the same position as Zewrath. Mount Up seems like an incredibly weak order. If you are playing an opponent & he knows you are playing Steel Legion, his highest priority is going to be targeting any vets exiting a chimera. They will not survive the one round of shooting they are exposed against any competent player.
I share the same position as Zewrath. Mount Up seems like an incredibly weak order. If you are playing an opponent & he knows you are playing Steel Legion, his highest priority is going to be targeting any vets exiting a chimera. They will not survive the one round of shooting they are exposed against any competent player.
And what happens when we're talking about, say, multiple infantry squads exiting multiple Chimeras or Stormlords even?
There's only so much that you're going to be able to deal with when this is being used en masse.
Stus67 wrote: Steel Legion to me appears to be one of the weakest Regiments. Rapid Firing at 18" is pretty nice, but their vehicle rule is almost entirely useless, and their special order is pretty lackluster. The stratagem is alright I guess if you can actually find a scenario where it works.
Oh please. The Cadians are "reroll 1s To Hit if they stay still, reroll all To Hits if given a specific Order"--and we haven't seen their Order yet.
That, I feel, is the real dud. It would have been better as +1 to their Shooting Attacks(including/excluding Overwatch as the case may be) if they stay still.
Steel Legion to me appears to be one of the weakest Regiments. Rapid Firing at 18" is pretty nice, but their vehicle rule is almost entirely useless, and their special order is pretty lackluster. The stratagem is alright I guess if you can actually find a scenario where it works.
I share the same position as Zewrath. Mount Up seems like an incredibly weak order. If you are playing an opponent & he knows you are playing Steel Legion, his highest priority is going to be targeting any vets exiting a chimera. They will not survive the one round of shooting they are exposed against any competent player.
This plus the loss of fire points in this edition is why vets are totally useless outside airdrops from a valkyrie, at which point your better off with a trio of command squads anyway. Hopefully vets see a return to their specialist rules so they can scout, demo or up armor otherwise they are totally outclassed by basic infantry or storm troopers outside of fluffy list building.
Autocannons are probably the worst (least efficient, fewest situations where it is appropriate) heavy weapon in the game. I've yet to use one or play against a single one in 8th ediditon. It's a good thing chimeras now have a solid way to defend against them.
I share the same position as Zewrath. Mount Up seems like an incredibly weak order. If you are playing an opponent & he knows you are playing Steel Legion, his highest priority is going to be targeting any vets exiting a chimera. They will not survive the one round of shooting they are exposed against any competent player.
And what happens when we're talking about, say, multiple infantry squads exiting multiple Chimeras or Stormlords even?
There's only so much that you're going to be able to deal with when this is being used en masse.
Stus67 wrote: Steel Legion to me appears to be one of the weakest Regiments. Rapid Firing at 18" is pretty nice, but their vehicle rule is almost entirely useless, and their special order is pretty lackluster. The stratagem is alright I guess if you can actually find a scenario where it works.
Oh please. The Cadians are "reroll 1s To Hit if they stay still, reroll all To Hits if given a specific Order"--and we haven't seen their Order yet.
That, I feel, is the real dud. It would have been better as +1 to their Shooting Attacks(including/excluding Overwatch as the case may be) if they stay still.
LMAO posts like this should tell everyone on here never to take any tactical advice of your seriously.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jaxor1983 wrote: Autocannons are probably the worst (least efficient, fewest situations where it is appropriate) heavy weapon in the game. I've yet to use one or play against a single one in 8th ediditon. It's a good thing chimeras now have a solid way to defend against them.
Idk I see quite a few, the predator autocanon seems to be the defacto way to run the now ubiquitous predator.
Zewrath wrote: Doubt all you want. That's still embarrassing. If they didn't have such a long standing history of being incompetent at reading rules, I actually accuse this commercial article of gross deception and false advertising.
You clearly have a sharp mind for legal matters. Get a lawyer and let us know how it turns out.
I share the same position as Zewrath. Mount Up seems like an incredibly weak order. If you are playing an opponent & he knows you are playing Steel Legion, his highest priority is going to be targeting any vets exiting a chimera. They will not survive the one round of shooting they are exposed against any competent player.
And what happens when we're talking about, say, multiple infantry squads exiting multiple Chimeras or Stormlords even?
There's only so much that you're going to be able to deal with when this is being used en masse.
Stus67 wrote: Steel Legion to me appears to be one of the weakest Regiments. Rapid Firing at 18" is pretty nice, but their vehicle rule is almost entirely useless, and their special order is pretty lackluster. The stratagem is alright I guess if you can actually find a scenario where it works.
Oh please. The Cadians are "reroll 1s To Hit if they stay still, reroll all To Hits if given a specific Order"--and we haven't seen their Order yet.
That, I feel, is the real dud. It would have been better as +1 to their Shooting Attacks(including/excluding Overwatch as the case may be) if they stay still.
LMAO posts like this should tell everyone on here never to take any tactical advice of your seriously.
Yeah, because I'm the idiot for failing to see how great "rerolling 1s to Hit if you stay still and rerolling all To Hits if granted a specific Order"(which can't be given to tanks and forbids you from being granted any additional Orders) is compared to being able to Rapid Fire any Rapid Fire weapon at up to 18" while bumping AP-1 to AP0...
If you can't see why it's a big deal that to take full advantage of a Regimental Doctrine mandates you use a specific Order? I can't help you with that.
jaxor1983 wrote: Autocannons are probably the worst (least efficient, fewest situations where it is appropriate) heavy weapon in the game. I've yet to use one or play against a single one in 8th ediditon. It's a good thing chimeras now have a solid way to defend against them.
Idk I see quite a few, the predator autocanon seems to be the defacto way to run the now ubiquitous predator.
'Using these rules in tandem, you’ll be able to do maximum damage when disembarking, then re-embark and redeploy without losing a turn of shooting. Armageddon mechanised infantry are going to be very, very hard to pin down in the new codex.'
Sounds like this is confirmation that GW are literally incapable of reading their own rules or even understand them.
Seeing as how you Embark(and Disembark) during Movement, you would lose a Shooting phase if you Embarked without this Order.
By doing it like this, you Disembark during your Movement phase and then you can Shoot normally.
The next turn, instead of Embarking you can use this Order and fire then Embark.
Yes, see the post above, explaining I know this and why it's not actually what the article implies, nor is the actual order good as stated above.
All the article says is that using them in tandem allows you to Disembark and Embark without losing a turn of shooting.
Did you really think that it would let you ignore the rules in place about Embarking/Disembarking in the same turn?
And this post confirms Kanluwen apparently doesn't know what special rules are, or just play pretends that they don't exist!
GBITF allows you to ignore rules about falling back, Harlequins have rules that allows you to Assault after advancing, Fly has rules for shooting after falling back. It's astonishing that you can use that argument with a straight face or ignore the fact that the article make it sound like it works like a rule that literally existed in several iterations before. Top kek.
The article has a picture right above the blurb that suggests ways things work in tandem.
Once again:
Disembark during your Movement phase.
-Shoot
Embark during your next Movement phase.
-Can't shoot.
That's the normal order of operations.
For Steel Legion, it can be this:
Disembark during your Movement phase
-"Armoured Fist" Stratagem
-Shoot
Next Turn don't Embark during Movement.
-"Mount Up!" issued.
-Shoot+Embark
Amazing how one can figure these things out without having to pretend like they do not know how things work.
The wording of the article implies that you get to disembark, shoot, then reembark in a single turn. It's clear the rules shown don't allow that.
But after reading the rules then reading the article I had to go back and reread The two agien because of how conflicting it read. The wording of the article part is fairly confusing at best, wrong at worst.
I think it's less about movement and more about spending half your time in a vehicle while still shooting every turn. Which is useful I guess? I'm not really sure what other purpose the order could have?
Both ways gets 2 out 3 turns for shooting, but the Steel Legion way actually prevents redeploying.
Like This:
Turn 1: Disembark, Move, Shoot
Turn 2: Move Transport, Move Squad, Shoot, Embark
Turn 3: You're now 12" ahead of where you were before, have shot twice, and are inside your transport.
Well hopefully your target is destroyed by now, and you're either moving on to the next one, or redeploying from another side of the tank. There's always the lasgun arrays too, so you're not completely ineffective when moving.
I think the idea is either so you can weather the storm, as guardsmen don't like AP -1 weapons like a heavy bolter being fired at them, while their Chimera just plain doesn't care, or so you can front load your damage and mount up for the next turn early and be safe from any reprisals. With Steel Legion's added rapid fire range, you can dismount farther away, get 2 turns of rapid fire shots against all but the fastest foes, and remount to blunt a reprisal strike.
Will it always be the best choice of orders? Probably not, but then if it was always the best choice in any situation, we'd have a problem.
Plus, we don't have all of the codex as a known yet. If Chimera's get a mild buff - either a points decrease or regaining its command vehicle rule, things might be looking a bit better for Steel Legion.
I share the same position as Zewrath. Mount Up seems like an incredibly weak order. If you are playing an opponent & he knows you are playing Steel Legion, his highest priority is going to be targeting any vets exiting a chimera. They will not survive the one round of shooting they are exposed against any competent player.
And what happens when we're talking about, say, multiple infantry squads exiting multiple Chimeras or Stormlords even?
There's only so much that you're going to be able to deal with when this is being used en masse.
Stus67 wrote: Steel Legion to me appears to be one of the weakest Regiments. Rapid Firing at 18" is pretty nice, but their vehicle rule is almost entirely useless, and their special order is pretty lackluster. The stratagem is alright I guess if you can actually find a scenario where it works.
Oh please. The Cadians are "reroll 1s To Hit if they stay still, reroll all To Hits if given a specific Order"--and we haven't seen their Order yet.
That, I feel, is the real dud. It would have been better as +1 to their Shooting Attacks(including/excluding Overwatch as the case may be) if they stay still.
LMAO posts like this should tell everyone on here never to take any tactical advice of your seriously.
Yeah, because I'm the idiot for failing to see how great "rerolling 1s to Hit if you stay still and rerolling all To Hits if granted a specific Order"(which can't be given to tanks and forbids you from being granted any additional Orders) is compared to being able to Rapid Fire any Rapid Fire weapon at up to 18" while bumping AP-1 to AP0...
If you can't see why it's a big deal that to take full advantage of a Regimental Doctrine mandates you use a specific Order? I can't help you with that.
jaxor1983 wrote: Autocannons are probably the worst (least efficient, fewest situations where it is appropriate) heavy weapon in the game. I've yet to use one or play against a single one in 8th ediditon. It's a good thing chimeras now have a solid way to defend against them.
Idk I see quite a few, the predator autocanon seems to be the defacto way to run the now ubiquitous predator.
Thanks for proving my point.
Keep in mind, we haven't seen the actual text of the rule yet. it wouldn't make a ton of sense for it not to offer full re-rolls for the identical, but differently named "Gunners, Kill On Sight" rule from tank commanders.
I'd like to present one way to look at Steel Legion,
1. 18" rapid fire is great, think about why death guard have it, its because they are slow and it lets them extend their firepower. For Guard we are using it for the opposite reason, to out range our opponent. At 18" you are far less likely to get charged than you are at 12", this way you can easily walk back from your opponent in a slow retreat, and ideally pop out and get your plasma in to a better position.
2. Everyone is crying about AP -1 ignoring being worthless, and against stuff like Lascannons, your most devastating anti-tank, it is. But last time I checked people aren't wasting lascannon shots on chimera's when there is artillery and tanks running about. Most of my transports are killed by Assault cannons and heavy bolters, and these are fairly common on the table these days. Cancelling out ap -1 is going to go a long way to make your transports survive to drop off their payloads, as well as take some pressure off of Leman Russes and manticores.
- 7 psychic power cards - 6 from the Psykana psychic discipline, along with Smite;
- 25 Astra Militarum Stratagems available to any Battle-forged Astra Militarum army as found in Codex: Astra Militarum including 8 which are Regiment-specific, along with 3 Stratagems – Command Re-roll, Counter-Offensive and Insane Bravery – from the Warhammer 40,000 rules, available to any army;
- 18 Order cards;
- 36 Tactical Objectives, including the 6 Astra Militarum-specific Objectives from Codex: Astra Militarum.
Armageddon troops will get to rapid fire their lasguns, then get into their chimera and fire the lasguns array. That's a nice little bonus. It's too bad it specifies aramageddon vehicle or they'd be able to get into a Valkyrie.
Also here's a question
Do vostroyans rapid fire weapons also gain 3in? Since hvy and rapid fire max range goes up by 6!
And if so doesn't that make steel legion 18in bonus even more pathetic in comparison.
1. 18" rapid fire is great, think about why death guard have it, its because they are slow and it lets them extend their firepower. For Guard we are using it for the opposite reason, to out range our opponent. At 18" you are far less likely to get charged than you are at 12", this way you can easily walk back from your opponent in a slow retreat, and ideally pop out and get your plasma in to a better position.
2. Everyone is crying about AP -1 ignoring being worthless, and against stuff like Lascannons, your most devastating anti-tank, it is. But last time I checked people aren't wasting lascannon shots on chimera's when there is artillery and tanks running about. Most of my transports are killed by Assault cannons and heavy bolters, and these are fairly common on the table these days. Cancelling out ap -1 is going to go a long way to make your transports survive to drop off their payloads, as well as take some pressure off of Leman Russes and manticores.
A short way, very short. It's comparably quite weak. Most lists will simply adjust their target priorities, in a non-meaningful way. Very niche.
gungo wrote: Also here's a question
Do vostroyans rapid fire weapons also gain 3in? Since hvy and rapid fire max range goes up by 6!
And if so doesn't that make steel legion 18in bonus even more pathetic in comparison.
Yeah, Vostroyans get an extra 3" of rapid fire range. Steel Legion is still going to look better for mechanized infantry, since you're all about maximizing your rapid fire output, while Vostroyans are clearly better at forming a gunline.
gungo wrote: With all the strategems we have and use for command points I think cadia and creed (pask and kel too) might be a lot more popular then people think.
Also new psychic powers mmmm
Have we seen any particularly useful stratagems? I don't recall anything really impressive being mentioned.
Plus this guard we are talking about. Three battalions can cost as little as 450 points before adding in the actual power units, assuming infantry didn't go up in price.
Stus67 wrote: Steel Legion to me appears to be one of the weakest Regiments. Rapid Firing at 18" is pretty nice, but their vehicle rule is almost entirely useless, and their special order is pretty lackluster. The stratagem is alright I guess if you can actually find a scenario where it works.
Oh please. The Cadians are "reroll 1s To Hit if they stay still, reroll all To Hits if given a specific Order"--and we haven't seen their Order yet.
That, I feel, is the real dud. It would have been better as +1 to their Shooting Attacks(including/excluding Overwatch as the case may be) if they stay still.
Rapid Fire at 18" is literally their only boon. It's a good one, but the only one. Everything else they get is practically useless at worst and highly situational at best. Their vehicle rule is almost completely useless, and their stratagem/order combo will more than likely never work the way it you want it to.
Ok so the steel legion order does indeed allow redeployment. This is because of something called "the movement please". I'm aware that guard players may not be aware of it, considering it an unwelcome distraction before the shooting phase, but it is relevant here.
Here's how it works. On turn one your veteran squad disembarks from the front of their chimera. They set up 3" plus the thickness of their base (just under 1") in front of the chimera. They are then allowed to "move" up to 6". In total they've traveled nearly 10" from their chimera.
This is interesting because they can double tap their 3 or 4 (if a command squad) plasma guns 18". Their threat range of nearly 28" may well allow for turn one double-tapping.
Alternatively, if the enemy has approached, you can use the "move" to increase the distance to them - staying just within 18" to rapid fire.
Meanwhile, the chimera is also able to move. It probably doesn't bother in turn one, so as to have no penalty to firing.
Turn two now arrives. You again move your infantry to 18" away from the target - or as far away as possible if you can't get that far. You move your chimera to meet them, staying behind the infantry. You fire, then embark - gaining more distance from the enemy.
I think that pretty often the order will be used to run out of a transport on turn one, then run back and jump in it again on turn two. The transport may not move in this time. But other times you might want to have the chimera (or taurox I guess) move sideways and have the infantry run to it.
1. 18" rapid fire is great, think about why death guard have it, its because they are slow and it lets them extend their firepower. For Guard we are using it for the opposite reason, to out range our opponent. At 18" you are far less likely to get charged than you are at 12", this way you can easily walk back from your opponent in a slow retreat, and ideally pop out and get your plasma in to a better position.
2. Everyone is crying about AP -1 ignoring being worthless, and against stuff like Lascannons, your most devastating anti-tank, it is. But last time I checked people aren't wasting lascannon shots on chimera's when there is artillery and tanks running about. Most of my transports are killed by Assault cannons and heavy bolters, and these are fairly common on the table these days. Cancelling out ap -1 is going to go a long way to make your transports survive to drop off their payloads, as well as take some pressure off of Leman Russes and manticores.
Damn straight. I keep geting picked apart by Assault Cannon spam and this is good news to me!
I hope the Wyrdevayne Psykers get some love. Because with all of the psyker heavy lists out there, I wouldn't mind some more counter to that. Although 15pt Astropaths have denied their fair share of powers and denied a ton of cover saves. The +1 to armor saves is just a bonus.
argonak wrote: Armageddon troops will get to rapid fire their lasguns, then get into their chimera and fire the lasguns array. That's a nice little bonus. It's too bad it specifies aramageddon vehicle or they'd be able to get into a Valkyrie.
Also true, good catch there! The rule benefits you primarily on turns 2 and on, as you're unlikely to be disembarked turn 1, but it helps keep the pressure on with lasguns, effectively allowing you to fire your lasguns twice in a turn. It gives you a slightly worse FRFSRF effect and gets your dudesmen out of harm's way. You can also hop into another ride nearby if yours is blown up or the second is vacant (likely because the guys from it are hot ash and red chunks). The Chimera you got into couldn't shoot until your guys get in. Pretty neat! MIndblowing, no. But neat!
Mandragola wrote: Ok so the steel legion order does indeed allow redeployment. This is because of something called "the movement please". I'm aware that guard players may not be aware of it, considering it an unwelcome distraction before the shooting phase, but it is relevant here.
Here's how it works. On turn one your veteran squad disembarks from the front of their chimera. They set up 3" plus the thickness of their base (just under 1") in front of the chimera. They are then allowed to "move" up to 6". In total they've traveled nearly 10" from their chimera.
This is interesting because they can double tap their 3 or 4 (if a command squad) plasma guns 18". Their threat range of nearly 28" may well allow for turn one double-tapping.
Alternatively, if the enemy has approached, you can use the "move" to increase the distance to them - staying just within 18" to rapid fire.
Meanwhile, the chimera is also able to move. It probably doesn't bother in turn one, so as to have no penalty to firing.
Turn two now arrives. You again move your infantry to 18" away from the target - or as far away as possible if you can't get that far. You move your chimera to meet them, staying behind the infantry. You fire, then embark - gaining more distance from the enemy.
I think that pretty often the order will be used to run out of a transport on turn one, then run back and jump in it again on turn two. The transport may not move in this time. But other times you might want to have the chimera (or taurox I guess) move sideways and have the infantry run to it.
You deploy wholly within 3" of a vehicle so the max movement from a vehicle would be 9" if your move characteristic is 6" but that doesn't take away from what you're saying, just thought I'd point that out as I've seen players try to get a bit of extra distance out of doing this.
argonak wrote: Armageddon troops will get to rapid fire their lasguns, then get into their chimera and fire the lasguns array. That's a nice little bonus. It's too bad it specifies aramageddon vehicle or they'd be able to get into a Valkyrie.
Also true, good catch there! The rule benefits you primarily on turns 2 and on, as you're unlikely to be disembarked turn 1, but it helps keep the pressure on with lasguns, effectively allowing you to fire your lasguns twice in a turn. It gives you a slightly worse FRFSRF effect and gets your dudesmen out of harm's way. You can also hop into another ride nearby if yours is blown up or the second is vacant (likely because the guys from it are hot ash and red chunks). The Chimera you got into couldn't shoot until your guys get in. Pretty neat! MIndblowing, no. But neat!
Well if you take a 3" disembark, 1" base, 6" move and 18" rapid fire, you could very well disembark on turn 1.
I could see a case for having a taurox with two commanders and two command squads inside. Plasma all round. It's quite a bomb.
I'm really interested to see if it's possible to get a steel legion unit with hellguns too.
You deploy wholly within 3" of a vehicle so the max movement from a vehicle would be 9" if your move characteristic is 6" but that doesn't take away from what you're saying, just thought I'd point that out as I've seen players try to get a bit of extra distance out of doing this.
One of the FAQs explains that "wholly within" means different things for a model vs a unit. The unit disembarks "wholly within" 3", which means that every model in the unit must be "within" 3", which means that you can disembark with just a sliver of a model's base within 3". If an individual model had to be "wholly within" 3", then no part of its base could be more than 3" from the transport.
You deploy wholly within 3" of a vehicle so the max movement from a vehicle would be 9" if your move characteristic is 6" but that doesn't take away from what you're saying, just thought I'd point that out as I've seen players try to get a bit of extra distance out of doing this.
One of the FAQs explains that "wholly within" means different things for a model vs a unit. The unit disembarks "wholly within" 3", which means that every model in the unit must be "within" 3", which means that you can disembark with just a sliver of a model's base within 3". If an individual model had to be "wholly within" 3", then no part of its base could be more than 3" from the transport.
The word "wholly" does not appear in the rules for disembarking. Instead it says that all of the models have to be within 3".
My understanding is that "within 3" means that one edge of the model's base must be no more than 3" from the vehicle it just got out of. That's what it means to be within 2" for unit coherency, or within 1" for cc. Otherwise anyone with a base bigger than an inch could never be in coherency!
This doesn't make an awful lot of difference for IG of course, with their 25mm bases. It makes a lot of difference to my assault centurions though!
Mandragola wrote: Ok so the steel legion order does indeed allow redeployment. This is because of something called "the movement please". I'm aware that guard players may not be aware of it, considering it an unwelcome distraction before the shooting phase, but it is relevant here.
Here's how it works. On turn one your veteran squad disembarks from the front of their chimera. They set up 3" plus the thickness of their base (just under 1") in front of the chimera. They are then allowed to "move" up to 6". In total they've traveled nearly 10" from their chimera.
This is interesting because they can double tap their 3 or 4 (if a command squad) plasma guns 18". Their threat range of nearly 28" may well allow for turn one double-tapping.
Alternatively, if the enemy has approached, you can use the "move" to increase the distance to them - staying just within 18" to rapid fire.
Meanwhile, the chimera is also able to move. It probably doesn't bother in turn one, so as to have no penalty to firing.
Turn two now arrives. You again move your infantry to 18" away from the target - or as far away as possible if you can't get that far. You move your chimera to meet them, staying behind the infantry. You fire, then embark - gaining more distance from the enemy.
I think that pretty often the order will be used to run out of a transport on turn one, then run back and jump in it again on turn two. The transport may not move in this time. But other times you might want to have the chimera (or taurox I guess) move sideways and have the infantry run to it.
"Movement please" aside, most of the movement you list could already be done. It's not like guard are looking to assault. An extra movement is not the same as redeploy, which is what this new rule claimed to do. No big deal, but let's not misrepresent the situation just to be a little snarky.
warboss wrote: I didn't see any Cadian regiment rules on the community site; did I miss them or have them been previewed elsewhere?
Free reroll 1's if you didn't move and reroll everything with take aim. But if you listen top Kanwalen he will tell you that's somehow bad Apparently being able to gain another orders benefit on top of the one already spammed is somehow mediocre lmao.
But seriously its really strong and in contention with catachan and valhalla for top spot, mostly dependent on build.
Idk, with most squads I use the reroll 1s to hit on, I'd rather juse use Harker and then reroll 1s to wound ... so my las cannons only miss on 2-3 and only fail to wound on a 2.
Woof! Super heavies got their main guns dramatically increased, about a 40 point reduction, no longer suffer penalties to hit when moving. Now I will have to finish building my baneblade I've had for months!
Sad that they didn't fix the Vanquisher Cannon. I really wanted to give one to Pask and let him order around two battle cannons. May as well give his another battle cannon.
Also really surprised about the super heavy weapons and point changes.
Since the Valkyrie also went down. There seems to be even less of a reason to take a chimera.
Hmmm, this Codex appears to be pretty damm good, and I'm not talking about stuff that probably is still more strong than it should, but it appears that.... a surprisingly percentage of the Imperial Guard roster is actually competitive and usable. Yeah, probably Tempestus Scions+Conscripts is still the way to go to the most hard edge competitive tournament players.... but many of the other things seem much nicer now. This seems to be one of the codexs with best internal balance GW has released. (This probably will bite me back after the min/maxers put their hands in the codex )
And to be honest with troops having back Obj Secure (I know this is old news), I'm loving the importance of troops in this edition (My favourite unit in the game!)
Unless tallarn let's you fire before turn 4 it doesn't solve the death strikes problem of rarely going off when it's needed.
Yeah, I like that my hsvg are going to see gain from that. With only 18" range the normal hslg aren't going to get much out of it sadly. Plasma will still be popular at 15pts though.
Daedalus81 wrote: Conscripts are still 3 pts.....the salt must flow!
We already knew they weren't going to fix them properly. They managed to leave a unit already outperforming every equivalent stronger post codex, yet talked about fixing it in article. It's actually hilarious if you think about it, they actually thought the various codex buffs conscripts were getting mattered less than those two totally irrelevant rule changes to unit size and orders. I'm actually sitting here laughing because this means a design team being paid actual money to do this job thought conscripts would be weaker post codex. If I was fixing a cooling issue and I went from causing the unit to overheat to causing it to actually combust I'd probably be fired for being absurdly incompetent, how do these morons still have jobs lmao.
I am a AM player, but this new codex makes me want to leave 40k. I have never seen codex creep to this scale. After reviewing the codex I can’t believe how much of a buff AM recieved. Seriously Basalisk guns now have have -3 AP, can choose the highest of 2D6 shots for 108pts? Not to mention if you play Catachans or Cadian lists your will melt units once you see the strategems/ orders/ traits.
Shadowswords now are 50pts cheaper, can move and shoot with no penalty, and are now 3D3 shots (390pts) WTF!!! I thought it was over powered in my current list!
The sheer amount of command points, ability to get it back traits, and relics is just stupid. I already had 12, with the new codex it will be more like 20+
I could go on and on about the cheese I saw in the book, but honestly this makes the AM (already the strongest faction) move to the ridiculous power level. No one is going to want to play me or any AM player. They literally have no disadvantages of any kind.
P.S. if you don’t have a codex yet don’t even bother playing. I thought the DG book was strong and balanced. It was competitive and fluffy. This codex just makes a strong army broken!
Oh man, someone just pointed out to me the imperial guard got my point cost decreases and buffs to their units than the admech mechanicus did. Because that makes sense
On the other hand, at least we can all go back to admitting GW is incompetent and has no idea how to balance, and stop pretending this edition has any semblance of proper balance.
Wait... isn't Matt Ward working for GW again? People praising a codex for internal balance even when it's clearly on another playing field compared to every other army... my friends I think we've found our first 8th edition wardian codex!
SilverAlien wrote: Oh man, someone just pointed out to me the imperial guard got my point cost decreases and buffs to their units than the admech mechanicus did. Because that makes sense
On the other hand, at least we can all go back to admitting GW is incompetent and has no idea how to balance, and stop pretending this edition has any semblance of proper balance.
Wait... isn't Matt Ward working for GW again? People praising a codex for internal balance even when it's clearly on another playing field compared to every other army... my friends I think we've found our first 8th edition wardian codex!
With how amazing this codex is I'm now not only a guard player but also a chilean salt miner.
Well i don't see any defensive abilities except overwatch and ogryn bodyguards. And the weakness of vehicles is they don't shoot if you touch them (except super heavies).
That said, yeah Astra Millitarum have the most firepower by far now, and may well be the most competitive faction. We'll see how long that lasts.
axisofentropy wrote: Well i don't see any defensive abilities except overwatch and ogryn bodyguards. And the weakness of vehicles is they don't shoot if you touch them (except super heavies).
That said, yeah Astra Millitarum have the most firepower by far now, and may well be the most competitive faction. We'll see how long that lasts.
You are never going to touch a AM vehicle though, cause conscripts, tats why people hate them. If you melee a AM vehicle that player must've been a literal potato I wonder if the little potato emoji on my phone asctislly shows up on the bored
Edit: it didn't :(
On Vahallan regiment tactics weakend the main counter to conscripts which is sniping the commissar. So they did get defensive buffs. Codex was nothing but buffs all round for the strongest falcon lol
Seriously though, that video really does make this codex seem disproportionately good. I heard bits and pieces about the Death Guard codex, and I thought: "Well, that's going to knock guard off the top." Now I can't imagine how anyone would lose with this codex. An average player will be good. Someone who managed to do good with guard in the previous editions should be nearly unstoppable.
Everything that I'm hearing is really just seeming unnecessary. I love that they did stuff for the factions. Wow though. Some of this stuff seems waaaay too good. I did not need encouragement to take more basilisks. I didn't need more encouragement to take more scions. There's literally nothing I have at this point that isn't silly powerful, at least on paper. I don't even know what to do with the special Mordian order. I guess Valkyries are useful to me now for dumping plasma command squads and obliterating whatever characters my opponent has that looks vaguely annoying. And Mordians aren't even the craziest faction in the book at this point.
I didn't watch the relic or warlord section of the video. I don't honestly know what to even say at this point. Man, I wanted something good, but I don't even feel like some of this stuff is sporting, and I'm generally the one to defend almost any codex to the bitter end.
The points adjustment on HWTs and plasma scions is good, at least. I feel like the buffs are gonna massively outweigh the nerfs and Guard will continue to be a major outlier army though.
Arachnofiend wrote: The points adjustment on HWTs and plasma scions is good, at least. I feel like the buffs are gonna massively outweigh the nerfs and Guard will continue to be a major outlier army though.
I missed those somewhere. Were they buried somewhere in the video and I just zoned out?
Some of the changes are beyond ridiculous. The Shadowsword is just silly. Without orders or anything, it removes 1 Land Raider equivalent each turn... For a bit more than a Land Raider's cost.
Balance in 8th edition is when you need 200pts of units to remove 100pts of the ennemy army. If 100pts can remove 100pts, the game becomes broken. And that's precisely what Guard can do now.
AM Summary:
Rough Riders are not in codex.
All Baneblades down 40.
Valkyries down 20.
Hyrdras down 10.
Leman Russes down 10.
Hotshot down 3.
Melta cannon down 15.
Talarn tank order: move 6" before or after shooting. Doesn't affect any modifiers that mention moving.
Cadian tank order: reroll dice to determine tank shots.
Tempestus order: reroll wounds against vehicles and monsters.
Catachans order: reroll flamer hit dice, ignores cover All Baneblade main cannons fire 1d6 more than usual.
3d6 instead of 2d6 for baneblade cannon for example.
Shadowsword is now 3d3 instead of d6.
Other stuff, stratagems etc.
Voice of command: 1cp for officer in Chimera to issue orders while inside.
Vengeance for Cadia: Any AM unit. reroll hits and wounds vs Chaos. 1cp
Inspired Tactics: officer can issue 1 more order. 1cp
Fight to the death: AM unit can take a morale test on a D3 instead of D6. 1cp
Aerial spotter 2cp: reroll hits with hydra or basilisk model
Consolidate squad 1cp, at end of movement phase, merge two infantry squads which are within 2" of eachother.
Mordian Stratagem 1cp, shooting attack hits of 6 can trigger another hit
Cadian stratagem 2cp, if a unit of yours has inflicted a wound on an enemy which wasnt saved, all other units gain +1 to hit vs that unit till the end of the phase
Vostroyans stratagem 1cp, +1 to hit on any vostroyan unit
Tallarn stratagem 3cp, use during deployment. Choose up to 3 tallarn units, they go hide. At the end of any movement phase, any can emerge within 7" of any battlefield edge but not within 9" of enemy.
Tempestus stratagem 1cp, if enemy deep strikes within 12", you can shoot them at -1 as if it were shooting phase
New power: Nightshroud, value 6. Give a unit -1 to hit from shooting attacks till next psychic phase
Mental fortitude power: give fearless to unit.
Psychic maelstrom power: pick enemy unit within 18". Roll a dice, on 2+ do MW, then on 3+ do a MW, 4+ etc till one is saved or fails.
I get the improvements to armor. The things that really bother me is that infantry are still the best pointed unit in the game. Compare a guardsmen to a cultist which has worse leadership, , a worse save, no access to special weapons, heavy weapons, and orders. Not to mention all these traits are amazing.
In addition i can only say WTF about the basilisk and stormsword buff. Both of these units were already stupid good now they are just broke. This just seems spiteful from GW.
The only time I've ever wanted to quit 40k out of frustration and pessimism was in the last few years when they took one of the most overbearing armies (Eldar) and gave it a codex update everyone thought would be full of nerfs, but instead they made it crazy better. I'm having the same reaction now watching the review info for the 8th ed IG codex. Everyone was sure they would get nerfed into the ground, instead they got insanely buffed in almost every way possible. I see IG players commenting already that they are dismayed at these changes because no one in their area will want to play against them. Death Guard was a good example of a fluffy, balanced codex that was decent without being overbearing. Now with the new IG codex I am just left in confusion wondering if all the devs and playtesters gak the bed at once or if GW was desperate to move some Baneblade inventory off the shelves or something. I had such high hopes for 8th ed...
Virules wrote: The only time I've ever wanted to quit 40k out of frustration and pessimism was in the last few years when they took one of the most overbearing armies (Eldar) and gave it a codex update everyone thought would be full of nerfs, but instead they made it crazy better. I'm having the same reaction now watching the review info for the 8th ed IG codex. Everyone was sure they would get nerfed into the ground, instead they got insanely buffed in almost every way possible. I see IG players commenting already that they are dismayed at these changes because no one in their area will want to play against them. Death Guard was a good example of a fluffy, balanced codex that was decent without being overbearing. Now with the new IG codex I am just left in confusion wondering if all the devs and playtesters gak the bed at once or if GW was desperate to move some Baneblade inventory off the shelves or something. I had such high hopes for 8th ed...
Yeah. This is the Eldar release.
Maybe it won't be that broken on the table but I don't see it it.
They have so much personality. Now they only need a decent plastic infantry kit!
