Do you actually WANT the only objective to be killing enemy models?
Because to me, that sounds boring as hell as a default. An occasional game of that, whether to get a new player acquainted with the rules, or just a relaxing break from actually having to think beyond target priority is fine. But as the main ruleset? No. Not good.
I'm not going near the Tau Overwatch whatever the hell that is, but even in a game where the primary goal is to sit on objectives and secure them, the objective is killing enemy models. There are people who will make game losing decisions because their personal objective is to kill more. GW has continually tried to revamp their mission system, while inertia, human nature, and GW's own failures have pushed back on it. Look at the arguments over the secondaries. Its all about which skew lists can or can't give up or take which secondaries easily.
Daedalus81 wrote: It's a bit of hyperbole to say that marines are pawing through 130 relics.
There's 15 in the main book, 7 or so more in the supplement, and 8 or so special issue.
15+15*6+6+5*1=116 not including BA, DA, DW, GK or SW. Adeptus Astartes have over 130 relics between them. Necrons have less than 20 between them. There are far more Necron characters than SM characters in the galaxy, they have the tech to make better relics as well. While any on Chapter might have access to as "little" as 23, Necron Dynasties have access to as few as 6 and no more than 7. Sorry about using SM and Adeptus Astartes interchangeably, I'm just thinking it's the same thing in low and high gothic respectively, didn't mean to say Codex SM.
Breaking news for you, there is a new necron codex, this will likely have different relics. Stop whining about a book thats got less than a month of life in it.
Different yes. Not 80 more though.
Breaking news: you can't use old book relics with new book
Daedalus81 wrote: It's a bit of hyperbole to say that marines are pawing through 130 relics.
There's 15 in the main book, 7 or so more in the supplement, and 8 or so special issue.
15+15*6+6+5*1=116 not including BA, DA, DW, GK or SW. Adeptus Astartes have over 130 relics between them. Necrons have less than 20 between them. There are far more Necron characters than SM characters in the galaxy, they have the tech to make better relics as well. While any on Chapter might have access to as "little" as 23, Necron Dynasties have access to as few as 6 and no more than 7. Sorry about using SM and Adeptus Astartes interchangeably, I'm just thinking it's the same thing in low and high gothic respectively, didn't mean to say Codex SM.
Breaking news for you, there is a new necron codex, this will likely have different relics. Stop whining about a book thats got less than a month of life in it.
Different yes. Not 80 more though.
Breaking news: you can't use old book relics with new book
Can you honestly source that last bit? Because GW has been adament that you can play anything from 8th in 9th unless they outright say that it doesn't exist or is Heroes etc. I never saw where they said relics from 8th can't be used in 9th. I would love to ruin the day of a person in my local meta that is doing that to the extreme.
Seems a bit disingenuous to talk about Space Marines having 130 relics.
I mean when's the last time someone fielded a Space Marine Ultramarine Blood Angel Space Wolf Deathwatch Grey Knight Dark Angel White Scar Iron Hands Imperial Fist Crimson Fist Black Templar Salamander Raven Guard army?
My guess is never, so adding all the relics from the various Marine books is overselling it a tad.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Seems a bit disingenuous to talk about Space Marines having 130 relics.
I mean when's the last time someone fielded a Space Marine Ultramarine Blood Angel Space Wolf Deathwatch Grey Knight Dark Angel White Scar Iron Hands Imperial Fist Crimson Fist Black Templar Salamander Raven Guard army?
My guess is never, so adding all the relics from the various Marine books is overselling it a tad.
I forgot my other 5 Necron codices and my 9 supplements.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Seems a bit disingenuous to talk about Space Marines having 130 relics.
I mean when's the last time someone fielded a Space Marine Ultramarine Blood Angel Space Wolf Deathwatch Grey Knight Dark Angel White Scar Iron Hands Imperial Fist Crimson Fist Black Templar Salamander Raven Guard army?
My guess is never, so adding all the relics from the various Marine books is overselling it a tad.
And then there is the fact special issue wargear is identical between the chapters (save for special ammo and last item on list) so that number was wrong to begin with. AM/AA/DW/MCW counts as 4, not however many it was multiplied for bigger effect.
GW wrote:The kit includes loads more options, such as the ability to swap out their melta rifles for an even harder-hitting heavy version.
Exactly, so theyll get 4 melta shots. Better cost like 60 points
What a friggin' gut punch that gun and the heavy intercessors are. It should be well more than 60 points. The double shoot just needs to go away at this point. Top that off with T5 W3 TROOPS.
The only thing I can glean is a gravis body is ~25 points. So the ultra Eradicators will be...45 points...
Oh...there is also a new keyword - CORE.
Chance of this not being a gak show is low at this point.
Xenomancers wrote: Wow sounds like you just put the sledgehammer down even though your whole army got shot off the board before it got close enough to charge me and die in overwatch...LOL you clearly dont play this game. Charge tau...you are hliarous...unless you are quinns or eldar...that aint happening.
It takes...
12 railed saves
72 wounds
216 5+ Overwatch hits
648 shots, or 216 Fire Warriors in range of a Cadre Firebalde to kill a Lord Discordant on Overwatch.
It takes...
6 failed saves
12 wounds
36 hits
108 shots from a Heavy Burst Cannon to kill a Lord Discordant on Overwatch.
And a Lord Discordant can get a first-turn charge easily, by using Warptime.
Now calculate it for a simple rhino charging in before its payload and see how its not getting blown up on average
FTGG is a real thing. It's not going to survive overwatch from 3 mega units on overwatch. It would be a waste to try.
Standard riptide build now is ATS and reroll overwatch. Stratagem for overwatch on 5's. So 55% hits. Some cover gives 5+ to hit in overwatch too - if I was tau...thats where I'd put my broadsides and riptide for sure. Literally just giving tau free shooting phases. Don't act like this is viable strategy...It's called throwing units away to the wolves IMO.
Im telling you this as an ultramarines player who frequently overwatches with 4 units against people trying to charge with a disco lord. DONT DO IT. YOU ARE HANDING ME THE W.
You’re telling him this as an Ultramarine player who has consistently demonstrated an inability to understand your own army, let alone others, at even a casual level let alone the competitive level you insist on weighing in on all the time with completely underprepared, inexperienced, and downright illogical statements.
I’m not saying Tau aren’t a good army in 9th, I’m not going as far as some others have. But I will say absolutely nothing you’ve said so far has been even remotely accurate, and you are just clearly demonstrating how your incorrect gameplay decisions have led you to build up beliefs about the game from the perspective of a very casual level of play. Applying it to competitive discussion is a fallacy. Xenos you simply are not playing the game at the level of most the other posters weighing in here, let alone the higher level of play above that, that you assume your experiences will hold true all the way up to. I don’t doubt your experience has been what you claim. I’d just like to put it to you that your experience means far less than what you assume it does, and you having admitted to never even attending a competitive event, and self professing to not understanding the depth to how this game can be played competitively that some people are able to consistently win events without CHEATING, I really don’t think you should be making soooooo many posts always staunchly arguing these things with people and never ever even considering backing down or admitting you may be wrong, no matter how overwhelming the evidence that you are mistaken gets. Even if your overall point is right here (doubtful) it would be by pure chance and absolutely not for any of the illogical reasons you’ve put forth so far. That’s not a good place to ALWAYS be.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And wow, the idea that having to control objectives and actually having tactical spaces to play around, is less skillful than just lining Up models at their appropriate ranges each turn and seeing what the dice say, is just astounding to me. Have you put any real thought into the path your argument is currently taking, or are you just whipping that stuff out there because it’s a statement you can use to support your core argument here?
Ahh yes - here comes this guy to tell me I am not competitive. Thanks bud. Noted.
Have you seen all the new marine releases today? As a marine hater you must really be upset about the new toys we got to play with.
Mature. So if necrons get 1 relic in the next book with a "on a 2+ before the first turn you win the game" they'll both be amazing because that's 100% of relics useful but still worse than marines because having 20something is still better somehow.
Also add the: necron players still whining despite having a massive release.
vict0988 wrote: I forgot my other 5 Necron codices and my 9 supplements.
So... you don't have a rebuttal?
...
Mature. So if necrons get 1 relic in the next book with a "on a 2+ before the first turn you win the game" they'll both be amazing because that's 100% of relics useful but still worse than marines because having 20something is still better somehow.
Also add the: necron players still whining despite having a massive release.
I'm not the person talking about squid piss or replying with "So... you don't have a rebuttal?" I was only being exactly as childish as my interlocutors.
Necrons were the only Codex army not to get any love from PA, the armies that got buffs in White Dwarf got more than Necrons AFAIK. 1 updated character sculpt and datasheet. Cool. So no Necrons have not gotten a massive release, unless you mean Indomitus, mine is still in production so I haven't actually gotten those rules or models, besides most of the rules inside are either meh or useless. The Necron codex is still several months away as well. Maybe it was a dumb idea making a thread about how a unit is okay now because of meta changes several months in the future and maybe it's a bad idea to say that someone has gotten a massive release before it has been released. You know who got a massive release? SM, almost 12 months ago now and each SM then got more rules in PA and the sister codices got a lot of love in PA, far more than a single character upgrade, what was it BA got? 1 character upgrade, Doctrines, super doctrine, lots of Stratagems, a new chapter with its own relics, WL traits and Stratagems. Necrons have not gotten Doctrines, super doctrines, lots of Stratagems or a new faction with its own relics, Wl traits and Stratagems, we will in a couple of months, until then I think it is 100% valid for me to shut down any SM player that whines.
My point was that it was dishonest to talk about Marines having 130 relics, because "Marines" is too broad a term. You can't use all 130 relics because you cannot combine all the various Codices.
vict0988 wrote: I forgot my other 5 Necron codices and my 9 supplements.
So... you don't have a rebuttal?
That is all the rebuttal that is needed, an SM player that whines because half their relics are bad should be told off and that's what I did. I didn't think it mattered that I counted 130+ because I had to count for the individual legion so 7 Relics vs 30. 11 vs 65 or 100 doesn't sound equal either. You can dance around this stupid pole all day, but SM players have no right to whine about half their relics being bad because it applies to every faction. Just like the SM players that whined when IH got nerfed, poor babies, you don't get more competitive relics than Necrons have relics all told.
Somebody please give Racerguy some more relics, the poor baby is crying.
I was the one complaining about Marine relics (and by the way I'm a Necron player too so there ya go), so plan your rebuttal for me. Also YEAH around 75% of the Marine relics are bad. For crying out loud, Iron Hands and Ultramarines get a worse version of the Burning Blade just because they needed to fill 6 relic entries! It's pointless!
Xenomancers wrote: Wow sounds like you just put the sledgehammer down even though your whole army got shot off the board before it got close enough to charge me and die in overwatch...LOL you clearly dont play this game. Charge tau...you are hliarous...unless you are quinns or eldar...that aint happening.
It takes...
12 railed saves
72 wounds
216 5+ Overwatch hits
648 shots, or 216 Fire Warriors in range of a Cadre Firebalde to kill a Lord Discordant on Overwatch.
It takes...
6 failed saves
12 wounds
36 hits
108 shots from a Heavy Burst Cannon to kill a Lord Discordant on Overwatch.
And a Lord Discordant can get a first-turn charge easily, by using Warptime.
Now calculate it for a simple rhino charging in before its payload and see how its not getting blown up on average
FTGG is a real thing. It's not going to survive overwatch from 3 mega units on overwatch. It would be a waste to try.
Standard riptide build now is ATS and reroll overwatch. Stratagem for overwatch on 5's. So 55% hits. Some cover gives 5+ to hit in overwatch too - if I was tau...thats where I'd put my broadsides and riptide for sure. Literally just giving tau free shooting phases. Don't act like this is viable strategy...It's called throwing units away to the wolves IMO.
Im telling you this as an ultramarines player who frequently overwatches with 4 units against people trying to charge with a disco lord. DONT DO IT. YOU ARE HANDING ME THE W.
You’re telling him this as an Ultramarine player who has consistently demonstrated an inability to understand your own army, let alone others, at even a casual level let alone the competitive level you insist on weighing in on all the time with completely underprepared, inexperienced, and downright illogical statements.
I’m not saying Tau aren’t a good army in 9th, I’m not going as far as some others have. But I will say absolutely nothing you’ve said so far has been even remotely accurate, and you are just clearly demonstrating how your incorrect gameplay decisions have led you to build up beliefs about the game from the perspective of a very casual level of play. Applying it to competitive discussion is a fallacy. Xenos you simply are not playing the game at the level of most the other posters weighing in here, let alone the higher level of play above that, that you assume your experiences will hold true all the way up to. I don’t doubt your experience has been what you claim. I’d just like to put it to you that your experience means far less than what you assume it does, and you having admitted to never even attending a competitive event, and self professing to not understanding the depth to how this game can be played competitively that some people are able to consistently win events without CHEATING, I really don’t think you should be making soooooo many posts always staunchly arguing these things with people and never ever even considering backing down or admitting you may be wrong, no matter how overwhelming the evidence that you are mistaken gets. Even if your overall point is right here (doubtful) it would be by pure chance and absolutely not for any of the illogical reasons you’ve put forth so far. That’s not a good place to ALWAYS be.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And wow, the idea that having to control objectives and actually having tactical spaces to play around, is less skillful than just lining Up models at their appropriate ranges each turn and seeing what the dice say, is just astounding to me. Have you put any real thought into the path your argument is currently taking, or are you just whipping that stuff out there because it’s a statement you can use to support your core argument here?
Ahh yes - here comes this guy to tell me I am not competitive. Thanks bud. Noted.
Have you seen all the new marine releases today? As a marine hater you must really be upset about the new toys we got to play with.
I love how they act like there is only ONE TRUE WAY TO PLAY and all others are to be pitied and spat upon.
I'm glad that the level some people play at is soooooooo much higher than others, why even play the game if you dont?????
Man, the horse that they ride on must be Imperator sized.
vict0988 wrote: I forgot my other 5 Necron codices and my 9 supplements.
So... you don't have a rebuttal?
...
Mature. So if necrons get 1 relic in the next book with a "on a 2+ before the first turn you win the game" they'll both be amazing because that's 100% of relics useful but still worse than marines because having 20something is still better somehow.
Also add the: necron players still whining despite having a massive release.
I'm not the person talking about squid piss or replying with "So... you don't have a rebuttal?" I was only being exactly as childish as my interlocutors.
Necrons were the only Codex army not to get any love from PA, the armies that got buffs in White Dwarf got more than Necrons AFAIK. 1 updated character sculpt and datasheet. Cool. So no Necrons have not gotten a massive release, unless you mean Indomitus, mine is still in production so I haven't actually gotten those rules or models, besides most of the rules inside are either meh or useless. The Necron codex is still several months away as well. Maybe it was a dumb idea making a thread about how a unit is okay now because of meta changes several months in the future and maybe it's a bad idea to say that someone has gotten a massive release before it has been released. You know who got a massive release? SM, almost 12 months ago now and each SM then got more rules in PA and the sister codices got a lot of love in PA, far more than a single character upgrade, what was it BA got? 1 character upgrade, Doctrines, super doctrine, lots of Stratagems, a new chapter with its own relics, WL traits and Stratagems. Necrons have not gotten Doctrines, super doctrines, lots of Stratagems or a new faction with its own relics, Wl traits and Stratagems, we will in a couple of months, until then I think it is 100% valid for me to shut down any SM player that whines.
Necrons got no PA content because they had a new codex round the corner, it was an intentional choice.
The codex is in October, it is September. This is next month not "several months away".
How about a blood angels player who in 12 months had to buy a psychic awakening book to be close to access all their units, then has to buy a marines codex, then has to buy a supplement. Do they not deserve to complain about shelling out endless cash?
It doesn't, it just complies with "a marine player comaining", arguably they might complain at no longer having an identity rules wise, since "best in faction" may cease to exist for blood angels.
Necrons got no PA content because they had a new codex round the corner, it was an intentional choice.
The codex is in October, it is September. This is next month not "several months away".
True. Also the 'why necrons got no love in PA?' question has to consider that this probably wasn't the original release plan. The end of PA and probably the codex release schedule got run over by Covid.
The 2020 release schedule GW was aiming for on paper in 2019 (and/or 2018) likely looked very different from the reality we got this year.
vict0988 wrote: I forgot my other 5 Necron codices and my 9 supplements.
So... you don't have a rebuttal?
...
Mature. So if necrons get 1 relic in the next book with a "on a 2+ before the first turn you win the game" they'll both be amazing because that's 100% of relics useful but still worse than marines because having 20something is still better somehow.
Also add the: necron players still whining despite having a massive release.
I'm not the person talking about squid piss or replying with "So... you don't have a rebuttal?" I was only being exactly as childish as my interlocutors.
Necrons were the only Codex army not to get any love from PA, the armies that got buffs in White Dwarf got more than Necrons AFAIK. 1 updated character sculpt and datasheet. Cool. So no Necrons have not gotten a massive release, unless you mean Indomitus, mine is still in production so I haven't actually gotten those rules or models, besides most of the rules inside are either meh or useless. The Necron codex is still several months away as well. Maybe it was a dumb idea making a thread about how a unit is okay now because of meta changes several months in the future and maybe it's a bad idea to say that someone has gotten a massive release before it has been released. You know who got a massive release? SM, almost 12 months ago now and each SM then got more rules in PA and the sister codices got a lot of love in PA, far more than a single character upgrade, what was it BA got? 1 character upgrade, Doctrines, super doctrine, lots of Stratagems, a new chapter with its own relics, WL traits and Stratagems. Necrons have not gotten Doctrines, super doctrines, lots of Stratagems or a new faction with its own relics, Wl traits and Stratagems, we will in a couple of months, until then I think it is 100% valid for me to shut down any SM player that whines.
Necrons got no PA content because they had a new codex round the corner, it was an intentional choice.
The codex is in October, it is September. This is next month not "several months away".
How about a blood angels player who in 12 months had to buy a psychic awakening book to be close to access all their units, then has to buy a marines codex, then has to buy a supplement. Do they not deserve to complain about shelling out endless cash?
Every body lost
Blood Angels/Wolves/Dark Angels players as you note.
Everyone else because so very much of Psychic Awakening was completely wasted reprinting again and again the same data sheets which we now know was a total waste of time.
Dudeface wrote: How about a blood angels player who in 12 months had to buy a psychic awakening book to be close to access all their units, then has to buy a marines codex, then has to buy a supplement. Do they not deserve to complain about shelling out endless cash?
They can just not buy PA as some SM players have said they didn't do because they grew tired of it No SM whining decree! /s Nah, it's totally fair criticism, as is criticism of a lack of external balance because one faction has more rules options than another faction, as is criticism of a lack of internal balance between weapon options. Some of the special issue wargear is quite strong, I like the idea of making an Aggressor's weapon master-crafted, not something I had thought of.
Dudeface wrote: As just pointed in the news thread, if you give eradicators multimeltas, theyre now dropping 12 shots per unit
At a single target. That quickly becomes overkill, same as a (still theoretical) larger squad.
Its one of those options that sounds horrific on paper, but against normal vehicles and small squads, the only thing you're eradicating is your spare points.
I have been playing mostly Astra Militarum for the last two years or so.
Most of the time since the new Marine Codex dropped I was in for a hard time against them but had a chance.
With these new units this chance is completly obsolete. 3x Eradicator easily stomp the TCs. The other tanks and speeders shred the artillery and infantry.
Dudeface wrote: As just pointed in the news thread, if you give eradicators multimeltas, theyre now dropping 12 shots per unit
At a single target. That quickly becomes overkill, same as a (still theoretical) larger squad.
Its one of those options that sounds horrific on paper, but against normal vehicles and small squads, the only thing you're eradicating is your spare points.
Agreed. I think the basic Eradictor squad is pretty much all you're likely to need. 6 Melta shots backed up by some rerolls should be enough to deal with most threats. I'm not convinced you'd get enough benefit for the extra points of adding a MM instead.
@ Overkill: not really, one could rather say now they don't even have to be within Melta range...
Edit: forget it, I missed "only one per squad". I will leave my post anyway, just in spoilers:
Spoiler:
Against T8 3+ (like Leman Russ):
12 shots, 8 hits, 4 unsaved wounds, 14 damage at maximum range are enough.
Alternativly even when they are down one Eradicator they can still kill a LR in melta range in 1 single shooting phase (8 shots, 5.33 hits, 2.66 wounds * 1d6+2 damage = 14.66 damage.
Or as another alternative, they can now eradicate (pun intended) other Marines really well:
12 shots, 8 hits, 6.66 wounds, each with a 83.3% chance to kill a 1W Marine from 24'' and a 100% chance in Melta range.
Or against Gravis armor: 8 hits, 5.33 wounds, one Eradicator/Aggressor Squad gone, pretty sure even outside of Melta range... Yeah
Edit: just to be clear: I realized my math is off because they don't have 12 shots.
Dudeface wrote: As just pointed in the news thread, if you give eradicators multimeltas, theyre now dropping 12 shots per unit
At a single target. That quickly becomes overkill, same as a (still theoretical) larger squad.
Its one of those options that sounds horrific on paper, but against normal vehicles and small squads, the only thing you're eradicating is your spare points.
Agreed. I think the basic Eradictor squad is pretty much all you're likely to need. 6 Melta shots backed up by some rerolls should be enough to deal with most threats. I'm not convinced you'd get enough benefit for the extra points of adding a MM instead.
On average rolls with reroll 1s to hit/wound and no other buffs you're getting about 15 wounds to T8/3+ without an Invulnerable save. You might want the multi-melta if you see Knights or Land Raiders regularly but you're reliably one-rounding anything smaller.
Dudeface wrote: As just pointed in the news thread, if you give eradicators multimeltas, theyre now dropping 12 shots per unit
At a single target. That quickly becomes overkill, same as a (still theoretical) larger squad.
Its one of those options that sounds horrific on paper, but against normal vehicles and small squads, the only thing you're eradicating is your spare points.
Agreed. I think the basic Eradictor squad is pretty much all you're likely to need. 6 Melta shots backed up by some rerolls should be enough to deal with most threats. I'm not convinced you'd get enough benefit for the extra points of adding a MM instead.
Wait till the Codex drops and we see what Strats really power them up to super super broken levels.
(and how some people will still defend them even then)
GW wrote:The kit includes loads more options, such as the ability to swap out their melta rifles for an even harder-hitting heavy version.
Exactly, so theyll get 4 melta shots. Better cost like 60 points
What a friggin' gut punch that gun and the heavy intercessors are. It should be well more than 60 points. The double shoot just needs to go away at this point. Top that off with T5 W3 TROOPS.
The only thing I can glean is a gravis body is ~25 points. So the ultra Eradicators will be...45 points...
Oh...there is also a new keyword - CORE.
Chance of this not being a gak show is low at this point.
Even if the eradicators only get one heavy gun per squad that equals one dead Baneblade from three squads. Think three squads will = 550 points?
If heavy intercessors are T5 3W troops what's the point of Custodes?
But I can deal with that, it's that new keyword that bothers me. Remember the last time we saw CORE in the rules? As in CORE and AUXILIARY? As in formations?
GW wrote:The kit includes loads more options, such as the ability to swap out their melta rifles for an even harder-hitting heavy version.
Exactly, so theyll get 4 melta shots. Better cost like 60 points
What a friggin' gut punch that gun and the heavy intercessors are. It should be well more than 60 points. The double shoot just needs to go away at this point. Top that off with T5 W3 TROOPS.
The only thing I can glean is a gravis body is ~25 points. So the ultra Eradicators will be...45 points...
Oh...there is also a new keyword - CORE.
Chance of this not being a gak show is low at this point.
Even if the eradicators only get one heavy gun per squad that equals one dead Baneblade from three squads. Think three squads will = 550 points?
If heavy intercessors are T5 3W troops what's the point of Custodes?
But I can deal with that, it's that new keyword that bothers me. Remember the last time we saw CORE in the rules? As in CORE and AUXILIARY? As in formations?
Dudeface wrote: As just pointed in the news thread, if you give eradicators multimeltas, theyre now dropping 12 shots per unit
At a single target. That quickly becomes overkill, same as a (still theoretical) larger squad.
Its one of those options that sounds horrific on paper, but against normal vehicles and small squads, the only thing you're eradicating is your spare points.
Agreed. I think the basic Eradictor squad is pretty much all you're likely to need. 6 Melta shots backed up by some rerolls should be enough to deal with most threats. I'm not convinced you'd get enough benefit for the extra points of adding a MM instead.
Wait till the Codex drops and we see what Strats really power them up to super super broken levels.
(and how some people will still defend them even then)
If they get rebalanced points wise then they'll deserve defending.
Gadzilla666 wrote: ...If heavy intercessors are T5 3W troops what's the point of Custodes?...
Hey, if the heavy bolter damage buff propogates to the Adrasite combi-weapon (no guarantee, I know) a Saggitarius will still be slightly better than a Heavy Intercessor (2+ BS, 2+ armour, and a full heavy bolter on every model). They'll probably still make them twice the price for some reason.
Recalculated again:
with "just" Melta rifles the Eradicators get
6 shots, 4 hits, 2 wounds = 7(9 in Melta range) damage against a Leman Russ without rerolls
with Multimelta they get:
4 shots, 2.66 hits, 1.33 wounds = 4.66 (6 in melta range) damage from the rifles and
4 shots, 2.66 hits, 1.33 wounds = 4.66 (7.33 in melta range) damage from the MM So now just enough to kill a Leman Russ in one shooting phase.
Alternativly they can now blow up any Guard T7 3+ vehicle from outside Melta range
as above, but 1.78 wounds from each meltarifles and MM= 12.44 wounds outside of Melta range.
And I assume they are also that little bit better against other Marines when they take that MM
GW wrote:The kit includes loads more options, such as the ability to swap out their melta rifles for an even harder-hitting heavy version.
Exactly, so theyll get 4 melta shots. Better cost like 60 points
What a friggin' gut punch that gun and the heavy intercessors are. It should be well more than 60 points. The double shoot just needs to go away at this point. Top that off with T5 W3 TROOPS.
The only thing I can glean is a gravis body is ~25 points. So the ultra Eradicators will be...45 points...
Oh...there is also a new keyword - CORE.
Chance of this not being a gak show is low at this point.
Even if the eradicators only get one heavy gun per squad that equals one dead Baneblade from three squads. Think three squads will = 550 points?
If heavy intercessors are T5 3W troops what's the point of Custodes?
But I can deal with that, it's that new keyword that bothers me. Remember the last time we saw CORE in the rules? As in CORE and AUXILIARY? As in formations?
Surely they wouldn't.
Core will be to limit strat targets as a guess.
What's your reasoning for this theory? And how do you expect it to work?
Dudeface wrote: As just pointed in the news thread, if you give eradicators multimeltas, theyre now dropping 12 shots per unit
At a single target. That quickly becomes overkill, same as a (still theoretical) larger squad.
Its one of those options that sounds horrific on paper, but against normal vehicles and small squads, the only thing you're eradicating is your spare points.
Agreed. I think the basic Eradictor squad is pretty much all you're likely to need. 6 Melta shots backed up by some rerolls should be enough to deal with most threats. I'm not convinced you'd get enough benefit for the extra points of adding a MM instead.
Wait till the Codex drops and we see what Strats really power them up to super super broken levels.
(and how some people will still defend them even then)
If they get rebalanced points wise then they'll deserve defending.
True. If the price is right anything is ok. It's just a question of will they have that right price.
GW wrote:The kit includes loads more options, such as the ability to swap out their melta rifles for an even harder-hitting heavy version.
Exactly, so theyll get 4 melta shots. Better cost like 60 points
What a friggin' gut punch that gun and the heavy intercessors are. It should be well more than 60 points. The double shoot just needs to go away at this point. Top that off with T5 W3 TROOPS.
The only thing I can glean is a gravis body is ~25 points. So the ultra Eradicators will be...45 points...
Oh...there is also a new keyword - CORE.
Chance of this not being a gak show is low at this point.
Even if the eradicators only get one heavy gun per squad that equals one dead Baneblade from three squads. Think three squads will = 550 points?
If heavy intercessors are T5 3W troops what's the point of Custodes?
But I can deal with that, it's that new keyword that bothers me. Remember the last time we saw CORE in the rules? As in CORE and AUXILIARY? As in formations?
Surely they wouldn't.
Core will be to limit strat targets as a guess.
What's your reasoning for this theory? And how do you expect it to work?
Dudeface wrote: As just pointed in the news thread, if you give eradicators multimeltas, theyre now dropping 12 shots per unit
At a single target. That quickly becomes overkill, same as a (still theoretical) larger squad.
Its one of those options that sounds horrific on paper, but against normal vehicles and small squads, the only thing you're eradicating is your spare points.
Agreed. I think the basic Eradictor squad is pretty much all you're likely to need. 6 Melta shots backed up by some rerolls should be enough to deal with most threats. I'm not convinced you'd get enough benefit for the extra points of adding a MM instead.
Wait till the Codex drops and we see what Strats really power them up to super super broken levels.
(and how some people will still defend them even then)
If they get rebalanced points wise then they'll deserve defending.
True. If the price is right anything is ok. It's just a question of will they have that right price.
Making something up entirely, imagine if transhuman physiology only affect a <chapter> CORE unit. Eradicators for example might not get the core word so it can't be used on them.
vict0988 wrote: I forgot my other 5 Necron codices and my 9 supplements.
So... you don't have a rebuttal?
That is all the rebuttal that is needed, an SM player that whines because half their relics are bad should be told off and that's what I did. I didn't think it mattered that I counted 130+ because I had to count for the individual legion so 7 Relics vs 30. 11 vs 65 or 100 doesn't sound equal either. You can dance around this stupid pole all day, but SM players have no right to whine about half their relics being bad because it applies to every faction. Just like the SM players that whined when IH got nerfed, poor babies, you don't get more competitive relics than Necrons have relics all told.
Somebody please give Racerguy some more relics, the poor baby is crying.
I was the one complaining about Marine relics (and by the way I'm a Necron player too so there ya go), so plan your rebuttal for me. Also YEAH around 75% of the Marine relics are bad. For crying out loud, Iron Hands and Ultramarines get a worse version of the Burning Blade just because they needed to fill 6 relic entries! It's pointless!
Except Iron Hands and UMs DIDN'T get a worse version of the Burning blade. Burning blade replaces a power sword (or MC'd power sword) and that's it. the UM relic The Soldier's Blade, can replace a powersword MC powersword, OR a combat knife. it's niche but it means you can give a Phobos Captain or Leuitenant a bit of extra punch. in melee. it's not great no, but it does have some legit nice uses. The Axe of Medusa well.. it's a Power Axe, some units have to take a power axe, like ohhh.... TECHMARINES.
Making something up entirely, imagine if transhuman physiology only affect a <chapter> CORE unit. Eradicators for example might not get the core word so it can't be used on them.
Again, making it up totally there, not a runour.
Sounds rational to me. Stripping strats away from already good units could be a great balance lever.
vict0988 wrote: I forgot my other 5 Necron codices and my 9 supplements.
So... you don't have a rebuttal?
That is all the rebuttal that is needed, an SM player that whines because half their relics are bad should be told off and that's what I did. I didn't think it mattered that I counted 130+ because I had to count for the individual legion so 7 Relics vs 30. 11 vs 65 or 100 doesn't sound equal either. You can dance around this stupid pole all day, but SM players have no right to whine about half their relics being bad because it applies to every faction. Just like the SM players that whined when IH got nerfed, poor babies, you don't get more competitive relics than Necrons have relics all told.
Somebody please give Racerguy some more relics, the poor baby is crying.
I was the one complaining about Marine relics (and by the way I'm a Necron player too so there ya go), so plan your rebuttal for me. Also YEAH around 75% of the Marine relics are bad. For crying out loud, Iron Hands and Ultramarines get a worse version of the Burning Blade just because they needed to fill 6 relic entries! It's pointless!
Except Iron Hands and UMs DIDN'T get a worse version of the Burning blade. Burning blade replaces a power sword (or MC'd power sword) and that's it. the UM relic The Soldier's Blade, can replace a powersword MC powersword, OR a combat knife. it's niche but it means you can give a Phobos Captain or Leuitenant a bit of extra punch. in melee. it's not great no, but it does have some legit nice uses. The Axe of Medusa well.. it's a Power Axe, some units have to take a power axe, like ohhh.... TECHMARINES.
Yes you're gonna take a melee relic on a Techmarine LOL. Plus if you wanted the Techmarine to do melee just take the Chainsword and you can get Teeth of Terra to make up for lack of attacks.
And the combat knife replacing is not really a niche since those HQs are meant for camping in the first place, and a counter charger can be better done otherwise.
So yes. The Axe of Medusa and Soldier's Blade are just worse versions of the Burning Blade. They're relic entries for the sake of relic entries. That's just one example too. Like, imagine taking the Special White Scars banner over Emperor Ascendant or Righteous Hatred or even the specific Imperial Fist or Ultramarines ones. It's silly, quite frankly, especially in an army like White Scars that can already find ways to get a bonus to wound.
When you have no niche to fill, you are pointless. People complaining about the Marine relics have frankly not even read the entries. At all.
Dudeface wrote: Necrons got no PA content because they had a new codex round the corner, it was an intentional choice.
Which, naturally, is why the impending marine codex meant PA dropped the astartes buffs entirely.
Fuuuuuck off.
The Marine stuff was just stuff deliberatly cut from their codex to sell a PA book. And I can prove it. the strat to upgrade a Librarian to a cheif librarian was first shown off in a July white dwarf that gave us index astartes: Blood Ravens. which was basicly a preview of new options from the upcoming Marine codex. thus.. yeah they deliberatly withheld rules to sell PA to Marines.
Even if the eradicators only get one heavy gun per squad that equals one dead Baneblade from three squads. Think three squads will = 550 points?
If heavy intercessors are T5 3W troops what's the point of Custodes?
But I can deal with that, it's that new keyword that bothers me. Remember the last time we saw CORE in the rules? As in CORE and AUXILIARY? As in formations?
Surely they wouldn't.
Nobody listens. GW loves to recycle. They probably have a distillery to recycle their own urine. I even wondered a few weeks ago if we wouldn’t be seeing the return of the double Det Cap/Chap free transports gimmick when someone mentioned Caps were 0-1.
The cynic in me wants to mention that the article states there is one multi melta per SET. The doors are still open to having more than 3 models per unit, one multi melta per 3. Although the math on that would definitely come out to overkill and you may as well have a stratagem that costs 1 CP and 240 points from your army list to remove one enemy model from the game.
Gadzilla666 wrote: ...If heavy intercessors are T5 3W troops what's the point of Custodes?...
You’re asking the wrong question. What’s the point of the heavy intercessors? We have outriders. We will soon have heavy Intercessors. That’s ravenwing, deathwing, Wolf Guard, white scars bikers as part of an Impulsor Rush, a lot of thematic holes just got filled in a way to give those wonky lists Defenders of Humanity on some models.
Gadzilla666 wrote: ...If heavy intercessors are T5 3W troops what's the point of Custodes?...
You’re asking the wrong question. What’s the point of the heavy intercessors? We have outriders. We will soon have heavy Intercessors. That’s ravenwing, deathwing, Wolf Guard, white scars bikers as part of an Impulsor Rush, a lot of thematic holes just got filled in a way to give those wonky lists Defenders of Humanity on some models.
Marine Player Asks "What Is The Point Of T5 W3 Troops With S5 AP-2 D2 Weapons?"
Gadzilla666 wrote: ...If heavy intercessors are T5 3W troops what's the point of Custodes?...
You’re asking the wrong question. What’s the point of the heavy intercessors? We have outriders. We will soon have heavy Intercessors. That’s ravenwing, deathwing, Wolf Guard, white scars bikers as part of an Impulsor Rush, a lot of thematic holes just got filled in a way to give those wonky lists Defenders of Humanity on some models.
Marine Player Asks "What Is The Point Of T5 W3 Troops With S5 AP-2 D2 Weapons?"
Rhetorically asks, and then answers the question. Honesty isn’t your strong suit is it?
Gadzilla666 wrote: ...If heavy intercessors are T5 3W troops what's the point of Custodes?...
You’re asking the wrong question. What’s the point of the heavy intercessors? We have outriders. We will soon have heavy Intercessors. That’s ravenwing, deathwing, Wolf Guard, white scars bikers as part of an Impulsor Rush, a lot of thematic holes just got filled in a way to give those wonky lists Defenders of Humanity on some models.
Marine Player Asks "What Is The Point Of T5 W3 Troops With S5 AP-2 D2 Weapons?"
Rhetorically asks, and then answers the question. Honesty isn’t your strong suit is it?
You’re asking the wrong question. What’s the point of the heavy intercessors?
Here, let me point it out to you juust in case you can't read your own post, or have forgotten what you wrote
So your problem is indeed reading comprehension. Go back and read his whole statement. as Breton said, it was a rhetorical question he provided the answer to.
So your problem is indeed reading comprehension. Go back and read his whole statement. as Breton said, it was a rhetorical question he provided the answer to.
Dishonesty is still in the running. Truncating a quote until it’s out of context is one of the easiest dishonest tricks to pull.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've been awake enough to see the Community Post.
The Bladeguard get the Deathwing/Wolfguard tag.
The Speeder CAN have the Ravenwing tag if taken in a DA or Successor chapter.
I'm still pretty sure you won't be able to have mixed units - no neophytes in Primaris Crusader Squads - but maybe Phobos I still doubt it. No Wolf Guard in SW squads.
I think the fluff is going to morph. I suspect the Deathwing company will look like Termies and Heavy Intercessors. Non characters (Termies and Heavy Intercessors) may lose the Deathwing rule, or maybe you can add it to Heavy Intercessors. Regardless I suspect you can paint Heavy Intercessors Bone White, so a Deathwing or Combi-wing army will have some Troops choices without FOC shenanigans and they'll have some ObSec. Belial may or may not cross the Rubicon for the Heavy Intercessor style Primaris Captain. Sammael is almost certainly remaining the same - I don't see a plastic Primaris Jetbike sculpt any time soon.
Despite the hype suggesting DA are among the most suspicious of Primaris, the Wolves are the furthest behind on conversions. I would absolutely expect at least one Wolf character to cross the Rubicon. Logan on foot, or Ragnar. I wouldn't be surprised if two cross at once, one Captain type, one alternate character type Ulrich, Njall, Bjorn, etc. I've already said I'm looking forward to seeing how they work Bjorn into a Redemptor chassis. I'd be surprised if they a NEW named in Primaris. They have no named Primaris yet.
Assault/Shooty Intercessors give a Rhino/Impulsor Rush augmented with Bikers a White Scar Biker army an easy list build with Objective Secured.
One final note, did anyone else see the Versioning typo/error on the Heavy Intercessors? I'm guessing the Hellstorm was originally called a Heavy Auto Bolt Rifle, then had a name change. Check the upgrade options.
I wondered about that with the SW Boxed Set he was in, but I couldn't find any datasheet that listed him as Primaris. OK this one will make it official, and I'd expect to see another character, possibly two. I'd expect to see another DA toon cross over, maybe two. They got a new named "generic" company Primaris Master. I suspect Azrael or Belial, potentially in addition to Asmodai, Ezekiel is less likely, Sammael is a long shot.
Mephiston already crossed, Dante is likely. The Sanguinor less so, but eventually. Tycho needs an update one way or another. The guy died before the first Primaris was able to breathe non-Martian Air. They could end up with a CM And a Captain, or one plus a Chaplain. BA Fluff is going to get a morph as well if Primaris don't suffer Red Thirst/Black Rage.
BA Fluff is going to get a morph as well if Primaris don't suffer Red Thirst/Black Rage.
There were Death Company Assault Intercessors shown.
Right, No matter what there's going to be a morph. Either the Primaris aren't immune after all, or they were losing the Death Company etc. So now we're going to see they aren't immune, and they're going to have to fluff why no Primaris suffered from the Black Rage until now. My money is on some sort of psychic link spreading the Red Thirst and Black Rage like a disease and the Primaris were quarantined away until now.
BrianDavion wrote: primaris death company are already a thing per Psykic awakening
Didn't buy that one, did they fluff it or drop it and walk away stage-whistling?
rules are in the supplement,
Not rules, fluff. Did they explain why for years and years on Mars and in the Indomitus Fleet no Primaris BA had the Red Thirst or the Black Rage, but now they do?
Catulle wrote: I am aware, in the sense that it may make Mr. Face's trolling utterly transparent
Yes I'm trolling by quoting Stu Black on the 9th/indomitus reveal when they explained they intentionally didn't put PA content out for necrons as they acknowledged it would have been ridiculous to release it and simultaneously make it redundant the same week.
Breton wrote: I've already said I'm looking forward to seeing how they work Bjorn into a Redemptor chassis.
Given Redemptors destroy the interred Marine after a period of time, there's no way the Wolves would risk moving Bjorn into a Redemptor chassis (ignoring the GW Model team here, anyway) - he's their link back to Russ, and far too valuable to risk that way.
Breton wrote: The Sanguinor less so, but eventually.
Given the Sanguinor appears to be a manifesting spirit, rather than a physical Marine, it seems unlikely.
Breton wrote: I've already said I'm looking forward to seeing how they work Bjorn into a Redemptor chassis.
Given Redemptors destroy the interred Marine after a period of time, there's no way the Wolves would risk moving Bjorn into a Redemptor chassis (ignoring the GW Model team here, anyway) - he's their link back to Russ, and far too valuable to risk that way.
They've got a white load of 13th Company now. Bjorn isn't special anymore.
Breton wrote: I've already said I'm looking forward to seeing how they work Bjorn into a Redemptor chassis.
Given Redemptors destroy the interred Marine after a period of time, there's no way the Wolves would risk moving Bjorn into a Redemptor chassis (ignoring the GW Model team here, anyway) - he's their link back to Russ, and far too valuable to risk that way.
That's whispered and will be whispered no more if they swap Bjorn over to squad Old Marines. Much like the idea Primaris are immune to the Red Thirst, Black Rage, Curse of the Wulfen, etc etc etc.
Breton wrote: The Sanguinor less so, but eventually.
Given the Sanguinor appears to be a manifesting spirit, rather than a physical Marine, it seems unlikely.
I thought the Sanguinor was some dude welded into a Death Mask to hide his own identity and become a symbol? Or am I confusing something from 30K? Not that the fluff doesn't serve the game instead of the other way around. If they want to make him Primaris, they'll find an excuse. He may just get a bigger resculpt at the same time they drop the Primaris Keyword if/when old marines are squatted and they no longer need the Primaris Keyword. It's not like The Sanguinor is riding in a lot of transports anyway.
Thus why I'm looking forward to how/when/if they dance Bjorn into the Redemptor. That one is no-win. If they move him, everybody now knows Old Marines are getting squatted. I mean most people are already pretty sure it's going to happen, but there's no missing that as a confirmation. I suppose the easiest way is the also the laziest way. Ulrik collaborates with Cawl, and they transfer the sarcophagus directly from one to the other, and as long as Cawl isn't busy he builds a Redemptor Claw to replace the Redemptor Fist. Supposedly it's the sarcophagus that drains the inhabitant not the Dread or some such so both get to be true. Maybe Cawl crafts the new Bjorn Redemptor from scratch all by himself to fix the problem and make the claw. They're going to have to assign a pretty good writer to make this not suck fluff wise if/when they do it. And IF/WHEN they squad old marines, they'll do it.
They've got a white load of 13th Company now. Bjorn isn't special anymore.
Hes the first non-primarch to lead em. He's special. Always will be. He and Sammael are about the only Commander Types not Infantry. Bjorn aint going anywhere. They'll kill off Logan before they kill Bjorn.
Breton wrote: I've already said I'm looking forward to seeing how they work Bjorn into a Redemptor chassis.
Given Redemptors destroy the interred Marine after a period of time, there's no way the Wolves would risk moving Bjorn into a Redemptor chassis (ignoring the GW Model team here, anyway) - he's their link back to Russ, and far too valuable to risk that way.
They've got a white load of 13th Company now. Bjorn isn't special anymore.
there's literally been no referance of that book since. I think we can throw it on the "gak GW's ignoring" pile. and frankly I'm fine with that, it wasn't a very good book
Xenomancers wrote: Wow sounds like you just put the sledgehammer down even though your whole army got shot off the board before it got close enough to charge me and die in overwatch...LOL you clearly dont play this game. Charge tau...you are hliarous...unless you are quinns or eldar...that aint happening.
It takes...
12 railed saves
72 wounds
216 5+ Overwatch hits
648 shots, or 216 Fire Warriors in range of a Cadre Firebalde to kill a Lord Discordant on Overwatch.
It takes...
6 failed saves
12 wounds
36 hits
108 shots from a Heavy Burst Cannon to kill a Lord Discordant on Overwatch.
And a Lord Discordant can get a first-turn charge easily, by using Warptime.
Now calculate it for a simple rhino charging in before its payload and see how its not getting blown up on average
FTGG is a real thing. It's not going to survive overwatch from 3 mega units on overwatch. It would be a waste to try.
Standard riptide build now is ATS and reroll overwatch. Stratagem for overwatch on 5's. So 55% hits. Some cover gives 5+ to hit in overwatch too - if I was tau...thats where I'd put my broadsides and riptide for sure. Literally just giving tau free shooting phases. Don't act like this is viable strategy...It's called throwing units away to the wolves IMO.
Im telling you this as an ultramarines player who frequently overwatches with 4 units against people trying to charge with a disco lord. DONT DO IT. YOU ARE HANDING ME THE W.
You’re telling him this as an Ultramarine player who has consistently demonstrated an inability to understand your own army, let alone others, at even a casual level let alone the competitive level you insist on weighing in on all the time with completely underprepared, inexperienced, and downright illogical statements.
I’m not saying Tau aren’t a good army in 9th, I’m not going as far as some others have. But I will say absolutely nothing you’ve said so far has been even remotely accurate, and you are just clearly demonstrating how your incorrect gameplay decisions have led you to build up beliefs about the game from the perspective of a very casual level of play. Applying it to competitive discussion is a fallacy. Xenos you simply are not playing the game at the level of most the other posters weighing in here, let alone the higher level of play above that, that you assume your experiences will hold true all the way up to. I don’t doubt your experience has been what you claim. I’d just like to put it to you that your experience means far less than what you assume it does, and you having admitted to never even attending a competitive event, and self professing to not understanding the depth to how this game can be played competitively that some people are able to consistently win events without CHEATING, I really don’t think you should be making soooooo many posts always staunchly arguing these things with people and never ever even considering backing down or admitting you may be wrong, no matter how overwhelming the evidence that you are mistaken gets. Even if your overall point is right here (doubtful) it would be by pure chance and absolutely not for any of the illogical reasons you’ve put forth so far. That’s not a good place to ALWAYS be.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And wow, the idea that having to control objectives and actually having tactical spaces to play around, is less skillful than just lining Up models at their appropriate ranges each turn and seeing what the dice say, is just astounding to me. Have you put any real thought into the path your argument is currently taking, or are you just whipping that stuff out there because it’s a statement you can use to support your core argument here?
Ahh yes - here comes this guy to tell me I am not competitive. Thanks bud. Noted.
Have you seen all the new marine releases today? As a marine hater you must really be upset about the new toys we got to play with.
I'm one of the biggest Marine fanboys ever. All my books are marine related. My prize army is Marines. I have a Space Marine cover on my phone. I commissioned an artist to DRAW ME as a Space Marine - lol.
You knew all this though, because I mentioned it last time. You simply don't have any other response to what has been put forth, so this empty fallback is all you got. Someone thinks your points are, well, stupid? MUST BE A MARINE HATER
Thread seems to be getting a bit off topic to say the least...
After seeing that a multi melta is soon to be available to crank this unit up to 11, got me thinking about space wolves lone wolf strat, a 5w hide-able character that can quad shot a melta with all the rerolls seems to be the ultimate peak of how broken this unit can be.
Ridiculous niche scenarios aside, I still believe that it is the durability of gravis infantry more than anything else that elevates this unit above it's peers. Plenty of non-SM armies have access to similar levels of shooting; for example 6 fire dragons are only slightly more expensive, get the same total number of melta shots and benefit from battle focus, better movement stat and an exarch power - but none of that matters as dragons will be dead immediately after they expose themselves whilst eradicators (if you spam them) could largely shrug off the counter attack to go again next turn.
Insularum wrote: Thread seems to be getting a bit off topic to say the least...
After seeing that a multi melta is soon to be available to crank this unit up to 11, got me thinking about space wolves lone wolf strat, a 5w hide-able character that can quad shot a melta with all the rerolls seems to be the ultimate peak of how broken this unit can be.
Ridiculous niche scenarios aside, I still believe that it is the durability of gravis infantry more than anything else that elevates this unit above it's peers. Plenty of non-SM armies have access to similar levels of shooting; for example 6 fire dragons are only slightly more expensive, get the same total number of melta shots and benefit from battle focus, better movement stat and an exarch power - but none of that matters as dragons will be dead immediately after they expose themselves whilst eradicators (if you spam them) could largely shrug off the counter attack to go again next turn.
Mechanicus has had T5 W3 troops for ages (with heavy weapons). Admittedly they are BS and WS 4+. But it's not like this is new.
If they are priced approximately the same as Breachers, or a bit more, I'm not sure I know what the novelty is.
Yes, the more I think about them the less I worry since they won't want to move much.
They'll make a great backfield babysitter, but in lists with point crunches to fit other good stuff we may only see them in synergy lists (IH,IF).
Price, as always, will be key. A ten man squad needs to be pricey. 30 T5 3+ obsec wounds will be hard to dig off of an objective, especially in a faction that can turn any weapon aimed at them into S5 for 2CP. You think Infiltrators are a problem? Wait until Raven Guard players use the same tactic with these things and Master of Ambush.
Mechanicus has had T5 W3 troops for ages (with heavy weapons). Admittedly they are BS and WS 4+. But it's not like this is new.
If they are priced approximately the same as Breachers, or a bit more, I'm not sure I know what the novelty is.
Yes, the more I think about them the less I worry since they won't want to move much.
They'll make a great backfield babysitter, but in lists with point crunches to fit other good stuff we may only see them in synergy lists (IH,IF).
Price, as always, will be key. A ten man squad needs to be pricey. 30 T5 3+ obsec wounds will be hard to dig off of an objective, especially in a faction that can turn any weapon aimed at them into S5 for 2CP. You think Infiltrators are a problem? Wait until Raven Guard players use the same tactic with these things and Master of Ambush.
If we’re still talking about Heavy Intercessors they’re terminators who traded fists and invuln for obsec. I’m not sure I see a lot of units taking the heavy upgrades. They’ve got the three Intercessor style weapons, probably/maybe the strats for those get updated to include heavy intercessor versions, the heavy Bolter is still a heavy Bolter for those strats, but the other two Heavy choices are now maybe updates of maybe updates.
Aggressors + Heavy Auto/Hellstorm bolt rifles makes for a nice assault weapon Gravis Deathguard inexorable advance flavor.
Already mentioned they make good troops choices for DADW or Combi wing lists. At 5 for 7PL I think we’re looking at about 28ppm, I’ve seen someone else say 25.
28-32 points a pop depending on loadout will sit about right with me. That would mean they don't get spammed as a clear favourite over other troops, but they're an attractive pick nonetheless.
I find it hard comparing them to breachers. Those dudes put out SHOTS
ThePorcupine wrote: That wargear is mandatory, so 35 is a minimum, but yes. If those marine dudes cost at least 35 with their weapons that would be ok
Terminators are roughly 35 with a 2+, invuln, powerfist and an arguably equal/better gun.
Heavy intercessor war gear is also mandatory.
And as mentioned at 20 points per PL, 7 PL for 5 guys is 28ppm.
How's an storm bolter an arguably equal/better gun? Also, regular terminators are no op sec., are elite and they invul save almost pointless because they 2+ save
ThePorcupine wrote: That wargear is mandatory, so 35 is a minimum, but yes. If those marine dudes cost at least 35 with their weapons that would be ok
Terminators are roughly 35 with a 2+, invuln, powerfist and an arguably equal/better gun.
Heavy intercessor war gear is also mandatory.
And as mentioned at 20 points per PL, 7 PL for 5 guys is 28ppm.
How's an storm bolter an arguably equal/better gun? Also, regular terminators are no op sec., are elite and they invul save almost pointless because they 2+ save
. More shots always rapid firing slightly shorter range assuming the “default” heavy bolt rapid fire 1.
Price, as always, will be key. A ten man squad needs to be pricey. 30 T5 3+ obsec wounds will be hard to dig off of an objective, especially in a faction that can turn any weapon aimed at them into S5 for 2CP. You think Infiltrators are a problem? Wait until Raven Guard players use the same tactic with these things and Master of Ambush.
Yes - armies that can get the on objective will get good mileage out of them. Otherwise transport is a big issue.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Breton wrote: More shots always rapid firing slightly shorter range assuming the “default” heavy bolt rapid fire 1.
I do wonder if Gravis will get Bolter Discipline as terminators do now.
They showed us the data sheet. They do not currently get upgrade options. It will not be surprising if they get power swords - see the heavy intercessor captain, or thunder hammers and power fists - see the regular Intercessors at some point in the future.
Breton wrote: They showed us the data sheet. They do not currently get upgrade options. It will not be surprising if they get power swords - see the heavy intercessor captain, or thunder hammers and power fists - see the regular Intercessors at some point in the future.
from the warhammer community codex preview article
A multipart Assault Intercessors kit is also on its way. In addition to more flexible posing options throughout, the squad’s Sergeant can be assembled with a hand flamer or plasma pistol, and can even wield a power sword, power fist, or thunder hammer too!
Breton wrote: They showed us the data sheet. They do not currently get upgrade options. It will not be surprising if they get power swords - see the heavy intercessor captain, or thunder hammers and power fists - see the regular Intercessors at some point in the future.
from the warhammer community codex preview article
A multipart Assault Intercessors kit is also on its way. In addition to more flexible posing options throughout, the squad’s Sergeant can be assembled with a hand flamer or plasma pistol, and can even wield a power sword, power fist, or thunder hammer too!
That's the assault intercessor, OP was asking about the Heavy Intercessor. This may be partially my fault for predicting and snarking about the as yet fictional Heavy Assault Intercessor Kit due out in 2021 or early 2022.
Breton wrote: They showed us the data sheet. They do not currently get upgrade options. It will not be surprising if they get power swords - see the heavy intercessor captain, or thunder hammers and power fists - see the regular Intercessors at some point in the future.
from the warhammer community codex preview article
A multipart Assault Intercessors kit is also on its way. In addition to more flexible posing options throughout, the squad’s Sergeant can be assembled with a hand flamer or plasma pistol, and can even wield a power sword, power fist, or thunder hammer too!
That's the assault intercessor, OP was asking about the Heavy Intercessor. This may be partially my fault for predicting and snarking about the as yet fictional Heavy Assault Intercessor Kit due out in 2021 or early 2022.
ahh yeah, the heavy intercessor doesn't. I think heavy intercessors will have some uses and I might snag a box or two but my primary infantry will remain the tactical intercessor
ahh yeah, the heavy intercessor doesn't. I think heavy intercessors will have some uses and I might snag a box or two but my primary infantry will remain the tactical intercessor
I've been waiting a long long long time to be able to play Combi-wing again. If the Outriders and Speeders make a decent Ravenwing force, and the DA fluff doesn't directly contradict it, I'm thinking of painting up some Heavy Intercessors in Bone White armor to be the troops along with the Ravenwing outriders and speeders plus some Termies and/or Bone White Aggressors (on the theory that as Primaris integrate into DA and the first company they'll do so in Gravis armor instead of Tacticus or Phobos. But that's about the only way I see so far to get DA 1st/2nd company Troops. Again unless they bring back FOC magic for Sammael and Belial.
Price, as always, will be key. A ten man squad needs to be pricey. 30 T5 3+ obsec wounds will be hard to dig off of an objective, especially in a faction that can turn any weapon aimed at them into S5 for 2CP. You think Infiltrators are a problem? Wait until Raven Guard players use the same tactic with these things and Master of Ambush.
Yes - armies that can get the on objective will get good mileage out of them. Otherwise transport is a big issue.
Which will make pricing them tricky. Can't make them too expensive for chapters without deployment and movement shenanigans, can't make them too cheap for the ones that do. It's a problem caused by trying to balance units in any faction with lots of differing strong subfaction rules, and it doesn't just apply to loyalists. 27 PPM for warp talons looks ridiculous for most Legions, but for Night Lords? You actually have to think about it. Maybe there should be a price for subfaction rules.
The PL of HI seems to suggest they're only going to be 28ppm which seems completely absurd. Having said that, the design of the unit is so weird that pricing them accurately could well turn out to be a nightmare. They walk a fine line between being obscenely good and complete gak, just going off that statline and depending on the points they end up getting.
Bosskelot wrote: The PL of HI seems to suggest they're only going to be 28ppm which seems completely absurd. Having said that, the design of the unit is so weird that pricing them accurately could well turn out to be a nightmare. They walk a fine line between being obscenely good and complete gak, just going off that statline and depending on the points they end up getting.
If they are 14 (7+7)PL 28 PPM(14 PL x 20points per PL/10 models) they're 280 points for 30 T5 Wounds and 10-20ish slightly better shots (assuming Heavy Bolt Rifle, no Heavy options just the base) (and 21-31 close combat)
A LRC is slightly more PL, barely more points, for 16 T8 2+ W. and 36 shots.
280 points of intercessors gets you 28 T4 3+ wounds and 14-28 slightly worse shots.
Not Quite 280 points of Mini Calgar Aggressors gets you 18 T5 W and 36 + shots.
280 points of Boyz gets you about 35 T4 6+ wounds, 35-70 + shots, and 105+ Close Combat attacks.
280 points of Terminators (this Month) gets you 14-16 (280 falls kind of in the middle of One Terminator added/subtracted) T4 2+/5++ wounds, and 42 shots.
Price, as always, will be key. A ten man squad needs to be pricey. 30 T5 3+ obsec wounds will be hard to dig off of an objective, especially in a faction that can turn any weapon aimed at them into S5 for 2CP. You think Infiltrators are a problem? Wait until Raven Guard players use the same tactic with these things and Master of Ambush.
Yes - armies that can get the on objective will get good mileage out of them. Otherwise transport is a big issue.
Which will make pricing them tricky. Can't make them too expensive for chapters without deployment and movement shenanigans, can't make them too cheap for the ones that do. It's a problem caused by trying to balance units in any faction with lots of differing strong subfaction rules, and it doesn't just apply to loyalists. 27 PPM for warp talons looks ridiculous for most Legions, but for Night Lords? You actually have to think about it. Maybe there should be a price for subfaction rules.
wouldn't that be a nice system instead of the one we have now, which is making opportunity cost an real issue because it just get's externalised whilest players are forced kinda into a specific subfactions due to the rather devastating effects off the subfactions and the associated stratagems that has on the pricing of the models.
Price, as always, will be key. A ten man squad needs to be pricey. 30 T5 3+ obsec wounds will be hard to dig off of an objective, especially in a faction that can turn any weapon aimed at them into S5 for 2CP. You think Infiltrators are a problem? Wait until Raven Guard players use the same tactic with these things and Master of Ambush.
Yes - armies that can get the on objective will get good mileage out of them. Otherwise transport is a big issue.
Which will make pricing them tricky. Can't make them too expensive for chapters without deployment and movement shenanigans, can't make them too cheap for the ones that do. It's a problem caused by trying to balance units in any faction with lots of differing strong subfaction rules, and it doesn't just apply to loyalists. 27 PPM for warp talons looks ridiculous for most Legions, but for Night Lords? You actually have to think about it. Maybe there should be a price for subfaction rules.
wouldn't that be a nice system instead of the one we have now, which is making opportunity cost an real issue because it just get's externalised whilest players are forced kinda into a specific subfactions due to the rather devastating effects off the subfactions and the associated stratagems that has on the pricing of the models.
Yes, that's what I was insinuating. Free subfaction rules makes it incredibly difficult to balance units at the faction level. Either subfaction rules should have a price or units should be priced per subfaction instead of per faction.
Bosskelot wrote: The PL of HI seems to suggest they're only going to be 28ppm which seems completely absurd. Having said that, the design of the unit is so weird that pricing them accurately could well turn out to be a nightmare. They walk a fine line between being obscenely good and complete gak, just going off that statline and depending on the points they end up getting.
If they are 14 (7+7)PL 28 PPM(14 PL x 20points per PL/10 models) they're 280 points for 30 T5 Wounds and 10-20ish slightly better shots (assuming Heavy Bolt Rifle, no Heavy options just the base) (and 21-31 close combat)
A LRC is slightly more PL, barely more points, for 16 T8 2+ W. and 36 shots.
280 points of intercessors gets you 28 T4 3+ wounds and 14-28 slightly worse shots.
Not Quite 280 points of Mini Calgar Aggressors gets you 18 T5 W and 36 + shots.
280 points of Boyz gets you about 35 T4 6+ wounds, 35-70 + shots, and 105+ Close Combat attacks.
280 points of Terminators (this Month) gets you 14-16 (280 falls kind of in the middle of One Terminator added/subtracted) T4 2+/5++ wounds, and 42 shots.
Where exactly is the absurd part?
What's absurd is your mental gymnastics since you've just listed a whole bunch of units that come off looking worse in the very comparisons you make, at least in the ones that might be able to be directly comparable to HI. Notice how you also make no mention of hit-rates, ranges, AP or Damage numbers, or how certain Chapter Tactics and Doctrines synergize with the unit, or even the roles or situations those units can actually make use of their attacks. I mean is that LRC comparison really meant to be a point in its favour and against HI? Just throwing out laughable numbers of Ork attacks and ignoring their hit rates, poor ranges, lack of Ap and lack of Damage. Like come on, dude.
Having said that, even at 28ppm I don't think HI would be the most busted thing ever, but it still wouldn't be an accurate price point for the unit especially when compared to other Marine units and other units in general. They have very obvious weaknesses and counters, but if made sub-30 they become so cost-efficient as to make those counters practically meaningless. If they're 35+ (especially when looking how every other Gravis model is 40+) then they become reasonable without being too oppressive outside of specific chapters. 28ppm puts them at 2 more points than a bloody Tau Stealth Suit which when comparing the superior weapons, stat-line and special rules is clearly too low.
Bosskelot wrote: The PL of HI seems to suggest they're only going to be 28ppm which seems completely absurd. Having said that, the design of the unit is so weird that pricing them accurately could well turn out to be a nightmare. They walk a fine line between being obscenely good and complete gak, just going off that statline and depending on the points they end up getting.
If they are 14 (7+7)PL 28 PPM(14 PL x 20points per PL/10 models) they're 280 points for 30 T5 Wounds and 10-20ish slightly better shots (assuming Heavy Bolt Rifle, no Heavy options just the base) (and 21-31 close combat)
A LRC is slightly more PL, barely more points, for 16 T8 2+ W. and 36 shots.
280 points of intercessors gets you 28 T4 3+ wounds and 14-28 slightly worse shots.
Not Quite 280 points of Mini Calgar Aggressors gets you 18 T5 W and 36 + shots.
280 points of Boyz gets you about 35 T4 6+ wounds, 35-70 + shots, and 105+ Close Combat attacks.
280 points of Terminators (this Month) gets you 14-16 (280 falls kind of in the middle of One Terminator added/subtracted) T4 2+/5++ wounds, and 42 shots.
Where exactly is the absurd part?
What's absurd is your mental gymnastics since you've just listed a whole bunch of units that come off looking worse in the very comparisons you make, at least in the ones that might be able to be directly comparable to HI.
They're worse? Do tell. I'm very interested to learn how 35 wounds of boys dealing 105+ close combat attacks when close combat is the best way to take an already controlled objective is worse.
Notice how you also make no mention of hit-rates, ranges, AP or Damage numbers, or how certain Chapter Tactics and Doctrines synergize with the unit, or even the roles or situations those units can actually make use of their attacks. I mean is that LRC comparison really meant to be a point in its favour and against HI? Just throwing out laughable numbers of Ork attacks and ignoring their hit rates, poor ranges, lack of Ap and lack of Damage. Like come on, dude.
Is hitting on 3's bad? What is the AP of 70-80 fewer Heavy Intercessor's close combat attacks?
Having said that, even at 28ppm I don't think HI would be the most busted thing ever, but it still wouldn't be an accurate price point for the unit especially when compared to other Marine units and other units in general.
You mean like the Regular Intercessors I also compared them to? The ones that trade a few wounds for more shots?
They have very obvious weaknesses and counters, but if made sub-30 they become so cost-efficient as to make those counters practically meaningless. If they're 35+ (especially when looking how every other Gravis model is 40+) then they become reasonable without being too oppressive outside of specific chapters. 28ppm puts them at 2 more points than a bloody Tau Stealth Suit which when comparing the superior weapons, stat-line and special rules is clearly too low.
Every other Gravis Model? The ones with a power fist and three times as many shots, or the ones with what basically ammounts to the new 2 shot multi melta that should be at least 20 or so points of the 40?
35? As in Terminators with a more shots, and a power fist?
How are you getting 35 wounds of boyz (which is 1 unit of 30 and a separate unit of 5, which you cannot even take as they are min-size 10 so it would have to be 25 and 10 and both units have to make the charge) into close combat where they are all able to strike?
A Town Called Malus wrote: How are you getting 35 wounds of boyz (which is 1 unit of 30 and a separate unit of 5, which you cannot even take as they are min-size 10 so it would have to be 25 and 10 and both units have to make the charge) into close combat where they are all able to strike?
You can't I don't think, but the HI will be on 40mm bases, 10 of which gives you a hefty footprint
A Town Called Malus wrote: How are you getting 35 wounds of boyz (which is 1 unit of 30 and a separate unit of 5, which you cannot even take as they are min-size 10 so it would have to be 25 and 10 and both units have to make the charge) into close combat where they are all able to strike?
It was just equal points in a discussion of points value comparisons. You can't take 14 Intercessors either.
I think that'd be a mistake as it's turn orks over night from a hoard army into an elites army. that said I'd be fine with them shifting Nobz to the troops slot (Nobz have 2 wounds yeah?) and thus letting Orks decide if they want quantity or quality
I think that'd be a mistake as it's turn orks over night from a hoard army into an elites army. that said I'd be fine with them shifting Nobz to the troops slot (Nobz have 2 wounds yeah?) and thus letting Orks decide if they want quantity or quality
Why couldn't they stay horde though being at W2? T4 6+ is not a tough Stateline to cut through and it would double their resistance to D1 weapons and realt make them tougher to get that charge they need.
If you think about it, it's like cutting their points in half but without the consequence of turning them into Infantry squads.
I think that'd be a mistake as it's turn orks over night from a hoard army into an elites army. that said I'd be fine with them shifting Nobz to the troops slot (Nobz have 2 wounds yeah?) and thus letting Orks decide if they want quantity or quality
Why couldn't they stay horde though being at W2? T4 6+ is not a tough Stateline to cut through and it would double their resistance to D1 weapons and realt make them tougher to get that charge they need.
If you think about it, it's like cutting their points in half but without the consequence of turning them into Infantry squads.
because a second wound costs a fair bit of points.
your basic Nob is 17 PPM, and gains 1 wound and 2 armor for that price. (IMHO the Nob could proably stand to get a points reduction to 16 PPM gven the 17 PPM cost of assault intercessors) assuming Boyz are costed approperatly, they'd proably go up to something like 15 or so PPM, nearly doubling their cost. this would dramaticly cut down on the sizes of Ork armies in terms of bodies and it'd make the line between Nobz and boyz a little too small. so yeah I'd rather see Boyz remain at one wound and Nobz made troops. this would give Orks effectively three tiers of troop quality giving them some flexability in list building
I think that'd be a mistake as it's turn orks over night from a hoard army into an elites army. that said I'd be fine with them shifting Nobz to the troops slot (Nobz have 2 wounds yeah?) and thus letting Orks decide if they want quantity or quality
Why couldn't they stay horde though being at W2? T4 6+ is not a tough Stateline to cut through and it would double their resistance to D1 weapons and realt make them tougher to get that charge they need.
If you think about it, it's like cutting their points in half but without the consequence of turning them into Infantry squads.
because a second wound costs a fair bit of points.
your basic Nob is 17 PPM, and gains 1 wound and 2 armor for that price. (IMHO the Nob could proably stand to get a points reduction to 16 PPM gven the 17 PPM cost of assault intercessors) assuming Boyz are costed approperatly, they'd proably go up to something like 15 or so PPM, nearly doubling their cost. this would dramaticly cut down on the sizes of Ork armies in terms of bodies and it'd make the line between Nobz and boyz a little too small. so yeah I'd rather see Boyz remain at one wound and Nobz made troops. this would give Orks effectively three tiers of troop quality giving them some flexability in list building
Why do you say a T4 6+ W2 Troop needs to be 15 PPM?
Giben how much Lots of basic infantry has been jumped in points eitheir they are all going to 2W or they are about to become something insane interms of rules because nothing so far justifies half of GW crackhead points cost for non marines units compaired to this nuclear weapon level attack on balance that has been marines in the last 6 months.
I think that'd be a mistake as it's turn orks over night from a hoard army into an elites army. that said I'd be fine with them shifting Nobz to the troops slot (Nobz have 2 wounds yeah?) and thus letting Orks decide if they want quantity or quality
Why couldn't they stay horde though being at W2? T4 6+ is not a tough Stateline to cut through and it would double their resistance to D1 weapons and realt make them tougher to get that charge they need.
If you think about it, it's like cutting their points in half but without the consequence of turning them into Infantry squads.
because a second wound costs a fair bit of points.
your basic Nob is 17 PPM, and gains 1 wound and 2 armor for that price. (IMHO the Nob could proably stand to get a points reduction to 16 PPM gven the 17 PPM cost of assault intercessors) assuming Boyz are costed approperatly, they'd proably go up to something like 15 or so PPM, nearly doubling their cost. this would dramaticly cut down on the sizes of Ork armies in terms of bodies and it'd make the line between Nobz and boyz a little too small. so yeah I'd rather see Boyz remain at one wound and Nobz made troops. this would give Orks effectively three tiers of troop quality giving them some flexability in list building
You're assuming a single T4 6+ is worth a lot defensively to begin with. Also nobody has ever agreed a Nob would finally be worth it at even 15 points.
I think that'd be a mistake as it's turn orks over night from a hoard army into an elites army. that said I'd be fine with them shifting Nobz to the troops slot (Nobz have 2 wounds yeah?) and thus letting Orks decide if they want quantity or quality
Why couldn't they stay horde though being at W2? T4 6+ is not a tough Stateline to cut through and it would double their resistance to D1 weapons and realt make them tougher to get that charge they need.
If you think about it, it's like cutting their points in half but without the consequence of turning them into Infantry squads.
because a second wound costs a fair bit of points.
It costs 3 for a marine, apparently. Iirc there was a 9th ed repointing with the raising of various costs, and marines went from 12-13 to 15.
There there was the 2W announcement putting marines at 18.
I think that'd be a mistake as it's turn orks over night from a hoard army into an elites army. that said I'd be fine with them shifting Nobz to the troops slot (Nobz have 2 wounds yeah?) and thus letting Orks decide if they want quantity or quality
Why couldn't they stay horde though being at W2? T4 6+ is not a tough Stateline to cut through and it would double their resistance to D1 weapons and realt make them tougher to get that charge they need.
If you think about it, it's like cutting their points in half but without the consequence of turning them into Infantry squads.
because a second wound costs a fair bit of points.
It costs 3 for a marine, apparently. Iirc there was a 9th ed repointing with the raising of various costs, and marines went from 12-13 to 15.
There there was the 2W announcement putting marines at 18.
Which would make 2W boyz 11 PPM, assuming that an extra wound is worth as much on a T4 6+ body as a T4 3+ one, which it isn't. Orks can survive after their heads are cut off, they should have 2W, or be T5, or something.
Which would make 2W boyz 11 PPM, assuming that an extra wound is worth as much on a T4 6+ body as a T4 3+ one, which it isn't. Orks can survive after their heads are cut off, they should have 2W, or be T5, or something.
Aye. When people were clamoring for 2w marines I was saying Orks and Necrons should also have 2w. :/
Back in the day, the "Eliteness" of a Space Marine was that they were as tough as an Ork, with the armor equivalent to the best Aspect Warrior armor, and stronger and more disciplined than both. That's not good enough anymore, apparently.
Which would make 2W boyz 11 PPM, assuming that an extra wound is worth as much on a T4 6+ body as a T4 3+ one, which it isn't. Orks can survive after their heads are cut off, they should have 2W, or be T5, or something.
Aye. When people were clamoring for 2w marines I was saying Orks and Necrons should also have 2w. :/
Back in the day, the "Eliteness" of a Space Marine was that they were as tough as an Ork, with the armor equivalent to the best Aspect Warrior armor, and stronger and more disciplined than both. That's not good enough anymore, apparently.
Well keeping everything in their legacy stats just because you dont like change is bad for the overall health for the game. If anything, GW experimenting with these stats is a welcome change.
Honestly I dont see how you can bring aspects/Eldar into the fore and compete with these 3W gravis troops or just plain space marines in general. October codex is yet to drop but with supplaments on the way and the previewed rules it pretty clear we not seing some sort of gigantic ynnari level nerf...
So what to do about eldar? The design space has been so eroded and cannibalised I dont even know where to begin in order to feel like anything else then Space marines -1.. The cap to hit penalty is gone, the Initiative stat is gone. All the skimmers/hover/trait rules have been given to marines also.
I guess we could push for an ignoring the to hit penalty cap as an army wide rule? But that wouldn't be fair so thats out the window.. I guess re-ollable saves, invulns for aeveryone and 35" 2D shuriken catapults and ob sec to all units? *shrugs*
The best thing thats happened to CWE in terms of a buff in the longest string of nerfs was the Expert crafters rule. And it is basically the old salamander rule so that alone shows you how bad things are. I certainly don't envy whoever has the job of coming up with rules for the rest of the factions. There ain't that much design room left thats not completely bonkers which wil make marines look pedestrian..
Argive wrote: Honestly I dont see how you can bring aspects/Eldar into the fore and compete with these 3W gravis troops or just plain space marines in general. October codex is yet to drop but with supplaments on the way and the previewed rules it pretty clear we not seing some sort of gigantic ynnari level nerf...
So what to do about eldar? The design space has been so eroded and cannibalised I dont even know where to begin in order to feel like anything else then Space marines -1..
The cap to hit penalty is gone, the Initiative stat is gone. All the skimmers/hover/trait rules have been given to marines also.
I guess we could push for an ignoring the to hit penalty cap as an army wide rule? But that wouldn't be fair so thats out the window..
I guess re-ollable saves, invulns for aeveryone and 35" 2D shuriken catapults and ob sec to all units? *shrugs*
The best thing thats happened to CWE in terms of a buff in the longest string of nerfs was the Expert crafters rule. And it is basically the old salamander rule so that alone shows you how bad things are.
I certainly don't envy whoever has the job of coming up with rules for the rest of the factions. There ain't that much design room left thats not completely bonkers which wil make marines look pedestrian..
Ynnari shouldn't be a whole army to begin with though. Treating them like Inquisition (so basic HQs to use to throw in Eldar variation armies) and with select Strats and powers would've been lots easier than the OP crap from before and the UP crap now.
Insectum7 wrote: ^Stat boost to Wraithguard maybe? But that's not very exciting.
IMO an argument can be made for wraith-lords and wraith knights to go up to T9 and a 2+ as a starting point. I think wraith-guard are pretty good where they are(bar maybe being a tad too expensive). The d-cythe needs a bump in range as well as damage and the wraith cannon needs to get something better than being just a slightly better metla.
Any hope for banshee to get a special banshee sword is out the window.. Still Ill take str4 as its better than nothing.
I guess fire-dragons could get the eradicator offensive treatment but then they and vast majority of the codex face the problem of being T3 1W model which is guardmen level of chaffness ( no offense IG lovers) paying the tac marine point cost... so kind of need those 2 wounds I guess ? But then Id rather they be made cheap as chips instead than pay premium for the extrta wound without the benefit of extra toughness or save so we back at square one.
I have my fingers crossed for the wraithlord to be somebody.. Honestly I have zero ideas how to represent the "fluff" without being broken in the face of the power creep. Guess broken Eldar coming to a table near you sometime in 2021 then.. lol.
If they are 14 (7+7)PL 28 PPM(14 PL x 20points per PL/10 models) they're 280 points for 30 T5 Wounds and 10-20ish slightly better shots (assuming Heavy Bolt Rifle, no Heavy options just the base) (and 21-31 close combat)
A LRC is slightly more PL, barely more points, for 16 T8 2+ W. and 36 shots.
280 points of intercessors gets you 28 T4 3+ wounds and 14-28 slightly worse shots.
Not Quite 280 points of Mini Calgar Aggressors gets you 18 T5 W and 36 + shots.
280 points of Boyz gets you about 35 T4 6+ wounds, 35-70 + shots, and 105+ Close Combat attacks.
280 points of Terminators (this Month) gets you 14-16 (280 falls kind of in the middle of One Terminator added/subtracted) T4 2+/5++ wounds, and 42 shots.
Where exactly is the absurd part?
It takes 27 HITS at S4 to kill 1 Heavy Intercessor on average. It takes 2.32ish hits to kill 1 Boy. Another way to put it, it takes about 35 boyz armed with Shootas, all within 18' of 1 Heavy intercessor to kill him. So 280pts of Orkz to kill 28pts of HI. In CC Those 35 Shoota boyz are dealing (Assuming illegal squad size of 35) 105 CC attacks for 23 wounds which inflicts almost 8 dmg, or 2 dead Intercessors. So 280pts of Orkz in their amazing assault phase are able to kill 56pts of HI, almost 82.
In response those 10 HI's are dealing 20 shots (Assuming bolter discipline) for 14ish hits and 10ish dead orkz (No saves allowed) for 80pts worth of dead Orkz. Ohh, did I mention at 36' range...or double that of the boyz? And in CC those 10 Intercessors are getting 20 attacks for 14ish hits and 7ish wounds for 6 dead boyz or 48pts of dead Orkz.
In a pure shooting battle those HI's win every single time, and since they have twice the range of boyz with stronger guns and more AP...im going to assume they will be shooting a lot more then charging into CC. And if they do get into CC, a full strength squad of 30 boyz is only able to kill 2 on average. In fact, add in the Pistols from the HI's and that 30 Boy mob is likely to LOSE in CC against HIs.
Argive wrote: Honestly I dont see how you can bring aspects/Eldar into the fore and compete with these 3W gravis troops or just plain space marines in general. October codex is yet to drop but with supplaments on the way and the previewed rules it pretty clear we not seing some sort of gigantic ynnari level nerf...
So what to do about eldar? The design space has been so eroded and cannibalised I dont even know where to begin in order to feel like anything else then Space marines -1..
The cap to hit penalty is gone, the Initiative stat is gone. All the skimmers/hover/trait rules have been given to marines also.
I guess we could push for an ignoring the to hit penalty cap as an army wide rule? But that wouldn't be fair so thats out the window..
I guess re-ollable saves, invulns for aeveryone and 35" 2D shuriken catapults and ob sec to all units? *shrugs*
The best thing thats happened to CWE in terms of a buff in the longest string of nerfs was the Expert crafters rule. And it is basically the old salamander rule so that alone shows you how bad things are.
I certainly don't envy whoever has the job of coming up with rules for the rest of the factions. There ain't that much design room left thats not completely bonkers which wil make marines look pedestrian..
Ynnari shouldn't be a whole army to begin with though. Treating them like Inquisition (so basic HQs to use to throw in Eldar variation armies) and with select Strats and powers would've been lots easier than the OP crap from before and the UP crap now.
Yeah. I dont see why they just cant be special characters with cool auras/unique psychic.. I don't think they need to be an army?
I will happily absorb their Warlord traits and relics into CWE though Would be nice to have a warlord trait to pick from nd some relics.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Orks can survive after their heads are cut off, they should have 2W, or be T5, or something.
They may be able to survive, but they cannot fight until their head gets reattached. Casualties in the game do not always represent dead, else the Space Marines would have been attritioned into non-existence.
If they are 14 (7+7)PL 28 PPM(14 PL x 20points per PL/10 models) they're 280 points for 30 T5 Wounds and 10-20ish slightly better shots (assuming Heavy Bolt Rifle, no Heavy options just the base) (and 21-31 close combat)
A LRC is slightly more PL, barely more points, for 16 T8 2+ W. and 36 shots.
280 points of intercessors gets you 28 T4 3+ wounds and 14-28 slightly worse shots.
Not Quite 280 points of Mini Calgar Aggressors gets you 18 T5 W and 36 + shots.
280 points of Boyz gets you about 35 T4 6+ wounds, 35-70 + shots, and 105+ Close Combat attacks.
280 points of Terminators (this Month) gets you 14-16 (280 falls kind of in the middle of One Terminator added/subtracted) T4 2+/5++ wounds, and 42 shots.
Where exactly is the absurd part?
It takes 27 HITS at S4 to kill 1 Heavy Intercessor on average. It takes 2.32ish hits to kill 1 Boy. Another way to put it, it takes about 35 boyz armed with Shootas, all within 18' of 1 Heavy intercessor to kill him. So 280pts of Orkz to kill 28pts of HI. In CC Those 35 Shoota boyz are dealing (Assuming illegal squad size of 35) 105 CC attacks for 23 wounds which inflicts almost 8 dmg, or 2 dead Intercessors. So 280pts of Orkz in their amazing assault phase are able to kill 56pts of HI, almost 82.
In response those 10 HI's are dealing 20 shots (Assuming bolter discipline) for 14ish hits and 10ish dead orkz (No saves allowed) for 80pts worth of dead Orkz. Ohh, did I mention at 36' range...or double that of the boyz? And in CC those 10 Intercessors are getting 20 attacks for 14ish hits and 7ish wounds for 6 dead boyz or 48pts of dead Orkz.
In a pure shooting battle those HI's win every single time, and since they have twice the range of boyz with stronger guns and more AP...im going to assume they will be shooting a lot more then charging into CC. And if they do get into CC, a full strength squad of 30 boyz is only able to kill 2 on average. In fact, add in the Pistols from the HI's and that 30 Boy mob is likely to LOSE in CC against HIs.
Not sure why you'd use shoota boyz and no rokkits (which are conveniently D3) or why you leave home without a PK/big choppa.
Or why you don't point out that HI are objectively no better than Intercessors at killing boyz.
With some luck (deathskulls) that unit could kill 1 to 4 HI.
Insectum7 wrote: ^Stat boost to Wraithguard maybe? But that's not very exciting.
IMO an argument can be made for wraith-lords and wraith knights to go up to T9 and a 2+ as a starting point. I think wraith-guard are pretty good where they are(bar maybe being a tad too expensive). The d-cythe needs a bump in range as well as damage and the wraith cannon needs to get something better than being just a slightly better metla.
Any hope for banshee to get a special banshee sword is out the window.. Still Ill take str4 as its better than nothing.
I guess fire-dragons could get the eradicator offensive treatment but then they and vast majority of the codex face the problem of being T3 1W model which is guardmen level of chaffness ( no offense IG lovers) paying the tac marine point cost... so kind of need those 2 wounds I guess ? But then Id rather they be made cheap as chips instead than pay premium for the extrta wound without the benefit of extra toughness or save so we back at square one.
I have my fingers crossed for the wraithlord to be somebody.. Honestly I have zero ideas how to represent the "fluff" without being broken in the face of the power creep. Guess broken Eldar coming to a table near you sometime in 2021 then.. lol.
I've been thinking a lot about the difference in size between a Redemptor Dreadnought and a Wraithlord recently. There's something about the comparison that highlights for me just how gaudy I think the Primaris designs are, and seems to exemplify my thoughts on their direction. "Make-it-biggerer-and-more-awesomer-cuz-mawrine-bwaaaaar"
If they are 14 (7+7)PL 28 PPM(14 PL x 20points per PL/10 models) they're 280 points for 30 T5 Wounds and 10-20ish slightly better shots (assuming Heavy Bolt Rifle, no Heavy options just the base) (and 21-31 close combat)
A LRC is slightly more PL, barely more points, for 16 T8 2+ W. and 36 shots.
280 points of intercessors gets you 28 T4 3+ wounds and 14-28 slightly worse shots.
Not Quite 280 points of Mini Calgar Aggressors gets you 18 T5 W and 36 + shots.
280 points of Boyz gets you about 35 T4 6+ wounds, 35-70 + shots, and 105+ Close Combat attacks.
280 points of Terminators (this Month) gets you 14-16 (280 falls kind of in the middle of One Terminator added/subtracted) T4 2+/5++ wounds, and 42 shots.
Where exactly is the absurd part?
It takes 27 HITS at S4 to kill 1 Heavy Intercessor on average. It takes 2.32ish hits to kill 1 Boy. Another way to put it, it takes about 35 boyz armed with Shootas, all within 18' of 1 Heavy intercessor to kill him. So 280pts of Orkz to kill 28pts of HI. In CC Those 35 Shoota boyz are dealing (Assuming illegal squad size of 35) 105 CC attacks for 23 wounds which inflicts almost 8 dmg, or 2 dead Intercessors. So 280pts of Orkz in their amazing assault phase are able to kill 56pts of HI, almost 82.
In response those 10 HI's are dealing 20 shots (Assuming bolter discipline) for 14ish hits and 10ish dead orkz (No saves allowed) for 80pts worth of dead Orkz. Ohh, did I mention at 36' range...or double that of the boyz? And in CC those 10 Intercessors are getting 20 attacks for 14ish hits and 7ish wounds for 6 dead boyz or 48pts of dead Orkz.
In a pure shooting battle those HI's win every single time, and since they have twice the range of boyz with stronger guns and more AP...im going to assume they will be shooting a lot more then charging into CC. And if they do get into CC, a full strength squad of 30 boyz is only able to kill 2 on average. In fact, add in the Pistols from the HI's and that 30 Boy mob is likely to LOSE in CC against HIs.
Not sure why you'd use shoota boyz and no rokkits (which are conveniently D3) or why you leave home without a PK/big choppa.
Or why you don't point out that HI are objectively no better than Intercessors at killing boyz.
With some luck (deathskulls) that unit could kill 1 to 4 HI.
It takes...
5+ DDD to-hit is a 2.57 multiplier
3+ to-wound is a 1.5 mutlpier
5+ save is another 1.5 multiplier
Just shy of 6 Rokkits to kill a single Heavy Intercessor, with no FNP, cover, or penalties to-hit.
A PK or Big Choppa does add a lot of melee punch, though.
Insectum7 wrote: ^Stat boost to Wraithguard maybe? But that's not very exciting.
IMO an argument can be made for wraith-lords and wraith knights to go up to T9 and a 2+ as a starting point. I think wraith-guard are pretty good where they are(bar maybe being a tad too expensive). The d-cythe needs a bump in range as well as damage and the wraith cannon needs to get something better than being just a slightly better metla.
Any hope for banshee to get a special banshee sword is out the window.. Still Ill take str4 as its better than nothing.
I guess fire-dragons could get the eradicator offensive treatment but then they and vast majority of the codex face the problem of being T3 1W model which is guardmen level of chaffness ( no offense IG lovers) paying the tac marine point cost... so kind of need those 2 wounds I guess ? But then Id rather they be made cheap as chips instead than pay premium for the extrta wound without the benefit of extra toughness or save so we back at square one.
I have my fingers crossed for the wraithlord to be somebody.. Honestly I have zero ideas how to represent the "fluff" without being broken in the face of the power creep. Guess broken Eldar coming to a table near you sometime in 2021 then.. lol.
I've been thinking a lot about the difference in size between a Redemptor Dreadnought and a Wraithlord recently. There's something about the comparison that highlights for me just how gaudy I think the Primaris designs are, and seems to exemplify my thoughts on their direction. "Make-it-biggerer-and-more-awesomer-cuz-mawrine-bwaaaaar"
Getting potentially one shotted by a single melta post SM update currently is a sad state of affairs.. And carnifexes..
Gadzilla666 wrote: Orks can survive after their heads are cut off, they should have 2W, or be T5, or something.
They may be able to survive, but they cannot fight until their head gets reattached. Casualties in the game do not always represent dead, else the Space Marines would have been attritioned into non-existence.
Yes, and? It proves that Orks are tough, tougher than space marines, who couldn't survive that. Orks are also known to continue fighting after losing limbs, just like marines. If loyalists and Admech can have 3W, T5, 3+ troops what's the problem with boyz being 2W, T4, 6+ or 1W, T5, 6+? Gw is changing stats on units to make things better in the new rules, that could be the route they take for Orks. If they do I don't see a problem as long as they're priced appropriately.
Although a space marine also has a medical suite build into his power armor. This is just one of those cases of fluff doesn't always translate to rules.
If they are 14 (7+7)PL 28 PPM(14 PL x 20points per PL/10 models) they're 280 points for 30 T5 Wounds and 10-20ish slightly better shots (assuming Heavy Bolt Rifle, no Heavy options just the base) (and 21-31 close combat) A LRC is slightly more PL, barely more points, for 16 T8 2+ W. and 36 shots. 280 points of intercessors gets you 28 T4 3+ wounds and 14-28 slightly worse shots. Not Quite 280 points of Mini Calgar Aggressors gets you 18 T5 W and 36 + shots. 280 points of Boyz gets you about 35 T4 6+ wounds, 35-70 + shots, and 105+ Close Combat attacks. 280 points of Terminators (this Month) gets you 14-16 (280 falls kind of in the middle of One Terminator added/subtracted) T4 2+/5++ wounds, and 42 shots. Where exactly is the absurd part?
It takes 27 HITS at S4 to kill 1 Heavy Intercessor on average. It takes 2.32ish hits to kill 1 Boy. Another way to put it, it takes about 35 boyz armed with Shootas, all within 18' of 1 Heavy intercessor to kill him. So 280pts of Orkz to kill 28pts of HI. In CC Those 35 Shoota boyz are dealing (Assuming illegal squad size of 35) 105 CC attacks for 23 wounds which inflicts almost 8 dmg, or 2 dead Intercessors. So 280pts of Orkz in their amazing assault phase are able to kill 56pts of HI, almost 82.
In response those 10 HI's are dealing 20 shots (Assuming bolter discipline) for 14ish hits and 10ish dead orkz (No saves allowed) for 80pts worth of dead Orkz. Ohh, did I mention at 36' range...or double that of the boyz? And in CC those 10 Intercessors are getting 20 attacks for 14ish hits and 7ish wounds for 6 dead boyz or 48pts of dead Orkz.
In a pure shooting battle those HI's win every single time, and since they have twice the range of boyz with stronger guns and more AP...im going to assume they will be shooting a lot more then charging into CC. And if they do get into CC, a full strength squad of 30 boyz is only able to kill 2 on average. In fact, add in the Pistols from the HI's and that 30 Boy mob is likely to LOSE in CC against HIs.
Because that was the comparison made, 35 Ork boyz vs 10 HIs. If you want to equip the rocket and the Nob with a PK you have to subtract some of those boyz. But just fun, the Rokkit takes 3 turns to reliably hit 1 time, it wounds on a 3+ so it takes 1.33 hits to equal 1 wound and they still get a 5+ save so it takes 1.33 wounds to guarantee one goes through, So statistically you are unlikely to get 1 kill with a single rokkit Launcha in a game. Also, its highly unlikely that those 36' (Minimum) range intercessors won't be in cover, so really its 1.5 to wound, or a -1 to hit or possibly both Not to mention the HI's can actually out distance the Rokkit Launcha.
But assuming they don't have cover of any kind and somehow the rokkit is in range and the mob didn't advance. Its .388 chance to hit, .259 chance to wound and .172 chance to do damage. So its going to take 5.81 Rokkits to guarantee 1 dead HI per turn. ATM that would be equivalent to about 104pts of Orkz shooting at 28pts of HI to get 1 kill. Also, you can only have 3 Rokkit'z per mob, and only if the mob is a full 30 boyz. So to even get this you would need either tankbusta's who would be better off shooting vehicles, or you need 540pts of ork boyz, with the majority shooting other targets...or possibly out of range (18' shootas).
As far as PK nob, the best build atm is double killsaw, which gives the nob 4 attacks base (5 if in a 20+ mob) hitting on 4s wounding on 2s with a flat 2 dmg. Assuming he is in a 20+ mob, he takes the place of almost 3 boyz by himself, and does 5 attacks hitting on 4s so 2.5 hits, wounding on 2s = 2.08 wounds which averages 4.16 wounds or 1 dead and 1 wounded HI. But in order to even use that you have to be in CC which is going to be a daunting prospect because again...36' minimum range for HIs. They can comfortably sit back from the front lines and dakka to their hearts content.
I think you're living the mathhammer world too deep. Something I'm guilty of from time to time.
Sometimes you roll hot. Sometimes you do not. Taking advantage of breakpoints will net you potentially bigger gains. Deathskulls is a particularly popular avenue to take further advantage. The only wet blanket is hit rolls - break through that barrier and then 66% and 66% to kill isn't so terrible.
A rokkit will never do 1.3567 damage. It will do 3 or it will do 0. Understanding your odds is separate from understanding the outcome of advantageous rolls.
I'm not advocating running boyz at them. One should rather use Smasha guns on Gravis - 1.2 hits on average, wounding as if S10, clearing all armor with a 50/50 to kill (and a follow up with chip damage when you miss the 50/50).
And HI are still not better than Intercessors at killing. You're buying durability. If they're at 36" then they can be safely ignored, because they'll never contest an objective. There are bigger fish to fry.
Yes, and? It proves that Orks are tough, tougher than space marines, who couldn't survive that. Orks are also known to continue fighting after losing limbs, just like marines. If loyalists and Admech can have 3W, T5, 3+ troops what's the problem with boyz being 2W, T4, 6+ or 1W, T5, 6+? Gw is changing stats on units to make things better in the new rules, that could be the route they take for Orks. If they do I don't see a problem as long as they're priced appropriately.
I'd like to see more types of Boys troops. They should add some sturdier boys to troops, They should add some weird but not weirdboys to troops. They should add a grot warboss, maybe even a grot weird boy etc. for the all grot list. I'd like to see some restrictions on mixing and matching too many types of boys. Heavy Intercessors don't get to bring along a bunch of cheap guardsmen, I'm not sure Nobby Choppa Boys should be able to drag along Grots and such.
I think Obsec should be on almost every infantry, possibly/probably even the bikers. I'm not sure why Elite Boys, Terminators Aspects, etc forget What they learned as a basic boy/marine/guardian etc. I'm really not sure why the very Synapse creatures bestowing the Hive Mind on the troops units don't know how to secure an objective.
I think Knight lists need pared down IG/Mechanicus infantry options for some troops and a secondary HQ, and then Knights should be toned down in price and then be HQ, Elite, FA, and HS choices so your generic knight list would be a BigBad Knight HQ, a less capable Regimental Officer type HQ, 3-6 Guardsman/Vanguard quality with potentially fewer upgrades/abilities infantry squads, and 3-5 more knight units depending on Armiger vs Big Boy with all knights being cheaper and less potent.
I think Bigger Orks vs Horde Orks would be a decent Clan fluff to get rules. Goffs are supposedly the biggest, so a Goff trait that favored the "Nobby Boys", and made Grots less attractive would be a starting point. Evil Suns are already painting buggies and bikes red, Snakebites or Blood Axes getting a boost to the smaller boys wouldn't stretch too far. Assuming Gretchen get a rework to get both better and more believable i.e. a longer range gun (autoguns?) they shoot from the fringes instead of a pistol and getting frog marched to the front lines would help them fit in with Blood Axes with something as close to a sniper as an ork can get or with Bad Moons or Deathskulls. The <Subfaction> trait should be where GW strongly encourages fluffy armies by rewarding matching units and (usually) indirectly punishing deviation.
Daedalus81 wrote: I think you're living the mathhammer world too deep. Something I'm guilty of from time to time.
Sometimes you roll hot. Sometimes you do not. Taking advantage of breakpoints will net you potentially bigger gains. Deathskulls is a particularly popular avenue to take further advantage. The only wet blanket is hit rolls - break through that barrier and then 66% and 66% to kill isn't so terrible.
A rokkit will never do 1.3567 damage. It will do 3 or it will do 0. Understanding your odds is separate from understanding the outcome of advantageous rolls.
I'm not advocating running boyz at them. One should rather use Smasha guns on Gravis - 1.2 hits on average, wounding as if S10, clearing all armor with a 50/50 to kill (and a follow up with chip damage when you miss the 50/50).
And HI are still not better than Intercessors at killing. You're buying durability. If they're at 36" then they can be safely ignored, because they'll never contest an objective. There are bigger fish to fry.
A rokkit will never do 1.3567 damage. It will do 3 or it will do 0. Understanding your odds is separate from understanding the outcome of advantageous rolls.
correct, a Boy w/Rokkit will never do 1.35dmg, A better way to put it is a Boy w/Rokkit ON AVERAGE has a 17.2% to inflict 3dmg a turn. So in all likelihood, it will not inflict ANY dmg during a game, especially since its unlikely to survive past turn 3. The point of the math is to show averages over several rounds or even games of shooting. Like you said, you can roll hot for a few turns but you are likely to have this averaged out down the line by rolling cold.
Compare this to a Space Marine, would a SM player take a Missile Launcher if it only had a 17.2% chance to actually do anything a turn?
If they are 14 (7+7)PL 28 PPM(14 PL x 20points per PL/10 models) they're 280 points for 30 T5 Wounds and 10-20ish slightly better shots (assuming Heavy Bolt Rifle, no Heavy options just the base) (and 21-31 close combat)
A LRC is slightly more PL, barely more points, for 16 T8 2+ W. and 36 shots.
280 points of intercessors gets you 28 T4 3+ wounds and 14-28 slightly worse shots.
Not Quite 280 points of Mini Calgar Aggressors gets you 18 T5 W and 36 + shots.
280 points of Boyz gets you about 35 T4 6+ wounds, 35-70 + shots, and 105+ Close Combat attacks.
280 points of Terminators (this Month) gets you 14-16 (280 falls kind of in the middle of One Terminator added/subtracted) T4 2+/5++ wounds, and 42 shots.
Where exactly is the absurd part?
It takes 27 HITS at S4 to kill 1 Heavy Intercessor on average. It takes 2.32ish hits to kill 1 Boy. Another way to put it, it takes about 35 boyz armed with Shootas, all within 18' of 1 Heavy intercessor to kill him. So 280pts of Orkz to kill 28pts of HI. In CC Those 35 Shoota boyz are dealing (Assuming illegal squad size of 35) 105 CC attacks for 23 wounds which inflicts almost 8 dmg, or 2 dead Intercessors. So 280pts of Orkz in their amazing assault phase are able to kill 56pts of HI, almost 82.
In response those 10 HI's are dealing 20 shots (Assuming bolter discipline) for 14ish hits and 10ish dead orkz (No saves allowed) for 80pts worth of dead Orkz. Ohh, did I mention at 36' range...or double that of the boyz? And in CC those 10 Intercessors are getting 20 attacks for 14ish hits and 7ish wounds for 6 dead boyz or 48pts of dead Orkz.
In a pure shooting battle those HI's win every single time, and since they have twice the range of boyz with stronger guns and more AP...im going to assume they will be shooting a lot more then charging into CC. And if they do get into CC, a full strength squad of 30 boyz is only able to kill 2 on average. In fact, add in the Pistols from the HI's and that 30 Boy mob is likely to LOSE in CC against HIs.
Comes down to using the right gun for the right job. Bolters are not good at killing 1 wound space marines ether. Point flat 3 damage weapons at the gravis and you get huge points return.
Boys are overcosted RN. No question about it. If I played orks I wouldn't even run troops atm. Good thing is - you don't have to.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Orks can survive after their heads are cut off, they should have 2W, or be T5, or something.
They may be able to survive, but they cannot fight until their head gets reattached. Casualties in the game do not always represent dead, else the Space Marines would have been attritioned into non-existence.
Yes, and? It proves that Orks are tough, tougher than space marines, who couldn't survive that. Orks are also known to continue fighting after losing limbs, just like marines. If loyalists and Admech can have 3W, T5, 3+ troops what's the problem with boyz being 2W, T4, 6+ or 1W, T5, 6+? Gw is changing stats on units to make things better in the new rules, that could be the route they take for Orks. If they do I don't see a problem as long as they're priced appropriately.
It's not problem - bring them up to elite level and make nobs as tough as custodians. Just point properly.
Xenomancers wrote: Comes down to using the right gun for the right job. Bolters are not good at killing 1 wound space marines ether. Point flat 3 damage weapons at the gravis and you get huge points return.
Boys are overcosted RN. No question about it. If I played orks I wouldn't even run troops atm. Good thing is - you don't have to.
VladimirHerzog wrote: Yeah, troopless Squigbuggy spam with a stompa seems much better than running some shoota boys in trukks backed up with mek guns and burnabommas
Xenomancers wrote: Comes down to using the right gun for the right job. Bolters are not good at killing 1 wound space marines ether. Point flat 3 damage weapons at the gravis and you get huge points return.
Boys are overcosted RN. No question about it. If I played orks I wouldn't even run troops atm. Good thing is - you don't have to.
Xenomancers wrote: Comes down to using the right gun for the right job. Bolters are not good at killing 1 wound space marines ether. Point flat 3 damage weapons at the gravis and you get huge points return.
Boys are overcosted RN. No question about it. If I played orks I wouldn't even run troops atm. Good thing is - you don't have to.
Xenomancers wrote: Comes down to using the right gun for the right job. Bolters are not good at killing 1 wound space marines ether. Point flat 3 damage weapons at the gravis and you get huge points return.
Boys are overcosted RN. No question about it. If I played orks I wouldn't even run troops atm. Good thing is - you don't have to.
Xenomancers wrote: Comes down to using the right gun for the right job. Bolters are not good at killing 1 wound space marines ether. Point flat 3 damage weapons at the gravis and you get huge points return.
Boys are overcosted RN. No question about it. If I played orks I wouldn't even run troops atm. Good thing is - you don't have to.
I feel its hard to keep squaring this "orks are bad mkay" with decent tournament performances. When it was literally 2 results it could have been put down as a fluke, but it seems to be getting replicated every other weekend.
Tyel wrote: I feel its hard to keep squaring this "orks are bad mkay" with decent tournament performances. When it was literally 2 results it could have been put down as a fluke, but it seems to be getting replicated every other weekend.
People are figuring out how to game the objectives and manufacture wins still. Can assure you a dude winning with basically an army of boys really just understood the objectives of the game better than his opponents.
So a bad army with weak units scored 2nd place in a tournament environment against (supposedly) Aggressor bombs, Eradicator spam and all the other Dakka boogeymen because the player understood objectives better?
Tyel wrote: I feel its hard to keep squaring this "orks are bad mkay" with decent tournament performances. When it was literally 2 results it could have been put down as a fluke, but it seems to be getting replicated every other weekend.
People are figuring out how to game the objectives and manufacture wins still. Can assure you a dude winning with basically an army of boys really just understood the objectives of the game better than his opponents.
Also don't forget the Ork army that won literally through making the clock run out.
a_typical_hero wrote: So a bad army with weak units scored 2nd place in a tournament environment against (supposedly) Aggressor bombs, Eradicator spam and all the other Dakka boogeymen because the player understood objectives better?
Yeah but it doesn't count because only pussies win by the mission, real chads win by tabling their opponents all day everyday
a_typical_hero wrote: So a bad army with weak units scored 2nd place in a tournament environment against (supposedly) Aggressor bombs, Eradicator spam and all the other Dakka boogeymen because the player understood objectives better?
Someone running "Thousand Sons" got Top 10 in a tournament in 6th, but nobody was talking about that because if it can't be replicated easily it's a fluke.
a_typical_hero wrote: So a bad army with weak units scored 2nd place in a tournament environment against (supposedly) Aggressor bombs, Eradicator spam and all the other Dakka boogeymen because the player understood objectives better?
Yeah but it doesn't count because only pussies win by the mission, real chads win by tabling their opponents all day everyday
I didn't say it didn't count. I'm just saying that isn't a good army. Winning by any means necessary is honorable - It doesn't matter how you chose to win. The issue is they have removed the way I want to win because a bunch of cry babies were like..."why do we even have objectives if all games end by a tabling at turn 3 or 4?"...Now in order to play competitive I have to use gamey tactics - build an army not how I want to but because it denies secondaries.
I think now is the time I just become a campaign gamer.
a_typical_hero wrote: So a bad army with weak units scored 2nd place in a tournament environment against (supposedly) Aggressor bombs, Eradicator spam and all the other Dakka boogeymen because the player understood objectives better?
Someone running "Thousand Sons" got Top 10 in a tournament in 6th, but nobody was talking about that because if it can't be replicated easily it's a fluke.
People like to pretend army X is not a massive problem just because army Y managed to spike a tournament.
Besides, 'massive horde of bodies wins tournament' isn't something new and was brought up as a 'solution' to winning in 9th almost immediately.
a_typical_hero wrote: So a bad army with weak units scored 2nd place in a tournament environment against (supposedly) Aggressor bombs, Eradicator spam and all the other Dakka boogeymen because the player understood objectives better?
Someone running "Thousand Sons" got Top 10 in a tournament in 6th, but nobody was talking about that because if it can't be replicated easily it's a fluke.
This is a little bit on a different level. We can clearly see it wasn't through advantageous rolls or clever/misunderstood play. He just straight said, "eff it i'll swarm the objectives and still be able to punch a hole through your army".
I don't doubt the game versus the Aggressors could have gone either way, but that's not a bad thing.
Orks were strong in 8th edition. 5 attacks at STR 5 on a regular boy when you have 120 of them on the table is going to do alot of damage, does not take a genius to figure it out.
a_typical_hero wrote: So a bad army with weak units scored 2nd place in a tournament environment against (supposedly) Aggressor bombs, Eradicator spam and all the other Dakka boogeymen because the player understood objectives better?
Yeah but it doesn't count because only pussies win by the mission, real chads win by tabling their opponents all day everyday
Man I'm pretty firmly pro-play-to-the-mission, but even I can recognize that building an army to sit in the magic circles and die as slowly as possible is pretty lame.
Maybe that's thrilling for people who are solely interested in whether or not they win, but for anyone who was attracted to Orks for the idea of gettin' stuck in and krumpin' heads, being told that your army is great as long as you sit on the point, die as slowly as possible, and don't try to actually fight with them must be disappointing.
Maybe that's thrilling for people who are solely interested in whether or not they win, but for anyone who was attracted to Orks for the idea of gettin' stuck in and krumpin' heads, being told that your army is great as long as you sit on the point, die as slowly as possible, and don't try to actually fight with them must be disappointing.
Thats not remotely how the winning Ork armies have functioned in 9th.
Maybe that's thrilling for people who are solely interested in whether or not they win, but for anyone who was attracted to Orks for the idea of gettin' stuck in and krumpin' heads, being told that your army is great as long as you sit on the point, die as slowly as possible, and don't try to actually fight with them must be disappointing.
Thats not remotely how the winning Ork armies have functioned in 9th.
You tell me how winning Ork armies have functioned in 9th, I honestly don't know. I'm responding to the idea of playing to the objectives to compensate for a weak army.
You tell me how winning Ork armies have functioned in 9th, I honestly don't know. I'm responding to the idea of playing to the objectives to compensate for a weak army.
By being aggressive, mobile, and running up and punching things in the face, while still maneuvering to score objectives. The notion that you can only get stuck in or just sit back on objectives while hopefully not dying is an entirely unrealistic portrayal.
The Goonhammer breakdown of the Boyz list from its tourney outing is a good walkthrough:
a_typical_hero wrote: So a bad army with weak units scored 2nd place in a tournament environment against (supposedly) Aggressor bombs, Eradicator spam and all the other Dakka boogeymen because the player understood objectives better?
Yeah but it doesn't count because only pussies win by the mission, real chads win by tabling their opponents all day everyday
I didn't say it didn't count. I'm just saying that isn't a good army. Winning by any means necessary is honorable - It doesn't matter how you chose to win. The issue is they have removed the way I want to win because a bunch of cry babies were like..."why do we even have objectives if all games end by a tabling at turn 3 or 4?"...Now in order to play competitive I have to use gamey tactics - build an army not how I want to but because it denies secondaries.
I think now is the time I just become a campaign gamer.
Horses for courses. I disliked the idea of being able to completely ignore a mission to just try and kill everything mindlessly. It removed a massive swathe of tactical play simply because your sole consideration was kill x amount.
There is a second rundown of how the list in question works in an earlier article.
Taken straight from the site:
Spoiler:
As ever, Shane is extremely reliable at upholding Goonhammer honour and this exceptionally brutal list piloted him to second place. Since Shane will be putting together his own report on proceedings I don’t want to steal his thunder too much, but we should hit the key points. First up, Ghaz continues to prove that he’s really, really good in 9th Edition – when we put together the Ork faction focus we’d seen a few people have some success with him both with and without Goff backup, but it says a lot about just how powerful he is that taking Goffs becomes a serious option, having been barely relevant in 8th. Taking one turn off the game makes his damage prevention ability even better than it already was, and just like with the Orion in the previous list he’s going to be a thorn in your opponent’s side for a lot of the game. He is, also, the ultimate trump card in any sort of monster mash, given he literally can’t lose a melee ruck in the first round.
This army fully leans into the Goff lyfe by upgrading all four units of Boyz to Skarboyz. The extra point of Strength combined with the force multiplication Ghaz provides makes these units even more dangerous than they normally are, and making the individual attacks more threatening helps to make up for it being harder to maneuvre lots of models into melee thanks to the new coherency and melee range rules. Huge hordes of Boyz with amped up numbers of attacks and strength are a very good counter to the Nurgle nonsense that’s been popular thus far, being one of the best tools for pushing through large wound sacks like Beasts and Chaos Spawn, which combined with them being Obsec lets this army counter that plan extremely well.
Ghaz and Da Boyz are obviously the focus of the list, and the rest of it appears to focus on making sure there’s a clear plan for the early game. Big Nobz in trukks (which can set up within a KFF bubble) provide a tool to push onto a mid board objective without exposing the Boyz to getting charged first by other high volume lists, and the Big Mek’s warlord trait ensures there’s coverage of ‘Ere We Go on turn 1 if Ghaz goes in a Tellyporta. Finally, a Weirdboy means the opponent has to operate under the ever-present threat of getting bowled over by a Da Jumping squad (and Unstoppable Green Tide also needs to be watched out for).
This list is a mean, green killing machine, and very much an army that you need to have some sort of plan to deal with, as I suspect it’ll only get more popular as time goes on.
a_typical_hero wrote: So a bad army with weak units scored 2nd place in a tournament environment against (supposedly) Aggressor bombs, Eradicator spam and all the other Dakka boogeymen because the player understood objectives better?
Yeah but it doesn't count because only pussies win by the mission, real chads win by tabling their opponents all day everyday
I didn't say it didn't count. I'm just saying that isn't a good army. Winning by any means necessary is honorable - It doesn't matter how you chose to win. The issue is they have removed the way I want to win because a bunch of cry babies were like..."why do we even have objectives if all games end by a tabling at turn 3 or 4?"...Now in order to play competitive I have to use gamey tactics - build an army not how I want to but because it denies secondaries.
I think now is the time I just become a campaign gamer.
Horses for courses. I disliked the idea of being able to completely ignore a mission to just try and kill everything mindlessly. It removed a massive swathe of tactical play simply because your sole consideration was kill x amount.
There are no less tactics involved in trying to kill everything than there is trying to control certain areas. You move models to certain areas of the map and try to kill particular units - while keeping certain units of yours alive. It is the exact same strategy...In fact - it is a great deal more reliable than taking a risk and going to a tabling.
a_typical_hero wrote: There is a second rundown of how the list in question works in an earlier article.
Taken straight from the site:
Spoiler:
As ever, Shane is extremely reliable at upholding Goonhammer honour and this exceptionally brutal list piloted him to second place. Since Shane will be putting together his own report on proceedings I don’t want to steal his thunder too much, but we should hit the key points. First up, Ghaz continues to prove that he’s really, really good in 9th Edition – when we put together the Ork faction focus we’d seen a few people have some success with him both with and without Goff backup, but it says a lot about just how powerful he is that taking Goffs becomes a serious option, having been barely relevant in 8th. Taking one turn off the game makes his damage prevention ability even better than it already was, and just like with the Orion in the previous list he’s going to be a thorn in your opponent’s side for a lot of the game. He is, also, the ultimate trump card in any sort of monster mash, given he literally can’t lose a melee ruck in the first round.
This army fully leans into the Goff lyfe by upgrading all four units of Boyz to Skarboyz. The extra point of Strength combined with the force multiplication Ghaz provides makes these units even more dangerous than they normally are, and making the individual attacks more threatening helps to make up for it being harder to maneuvre lots of models into melee thanks to the new coherency and melee range rules. Huge hordes of Boyz with amped up numbers of attacks and strength are a very good counter to the Nurgle nonsense that’s been popular thus far, being one of the best tools for pushing through large wound sacks like Beasts and Chaos Spawn, which combined with them being Obsec lets this army counter that plan extremely well.
Ghaz and Da Boyz are obviously the focus of the list, and the rest of it appears to focus on making sure there’s a clear plan for the early game. Big Nobz in trukks (which can set up within a KFF bubble) provide a tool to push onto a mid board objective without exposing the Boyz to getting charged first by other high volume lists, and the Big Mek’s warlord trait ensures there’s coverage of ‘Ere We Go on turn 1 if Ghaz goes in a Tellyporta. Finally, a Weirdboy means the opponent has to operate under the ever-present threat of getting bowled over by a Da Jumping squad (and Unstoppable Green Tide also needs to be watched out for).
This list is a mean, green killing machine, and very much an army that you need to have some sort of plan to deal with, as I suspect it’ll only get more popular as time goes on.
That sounds like a really fun army to play against, honestly. Gosh I haven't played against Orks in forever. Mid 7th, maybe.
You tell me how winning Ork armies have functioned in 9th, I honestly don't know. I'm responding to the idea of playing to the objectives to compensate for a weak army.
By being aggressive, mobile, and running up and punching things in the face, while still maneuvering to score objectives. The notion that you can only get stuck in or just sit back on objectives while hopefully not dying is an entirely unrealistic portrayal.
The Goonhammer breakdown of the Boyz list from its tourney outing is a good walkthrough:
Actually reading through that it does seem that's exactly what he was doing against certain lists (More elite lists) and just was able to smash the CC armies off objectives.
It all seems like GW have made an epic fail in limiting a model to taking 4 wounds then giving you a way to heal that model for multiple wounds per turn. Especially given most armies will struggle to land 4 wounds in more than 2 phases and some are limited to realistically only having 1 phase against Gaz as charging him sounds like suicide.
a_typical_hero wrote: There is a second rundown of how the list in question works in an earlier article.
Taken straight from the site:
Spoiler:
As ever, Shane is extremely reliable at upholding Goonhammer honour and this exceptionally brutal list piloted him to second place. Since Shane will be putting together his own report on proceedings I don’t want to steal his thunder too much, but we should hit the key points. First up, Ghaz continues to prove that he’s really, really good in 9th Edition – when we put together the Ork faction focus we’d seen a few people have some success with him both with and without Goff backup, but it says a lot about just how powerful he is that taking Goffs becomes a serious option, having been barely relevant in 8th. Taking one turn off the game makes his damage prevention ability even better than it already was, and just like with the Orion in the previous list he’s going to be a thorn in your opponent’s side for a lot of the game. He is, also, the ultimate trump card in any sort of monster mash, given he literally can’t lose a melee ruck in the first round.
This army fully leans into the Goff lyfe by upgrading all four units of Boyz to Skarboyz. The extra point of Strength combined with the force multiplication Ghaz provides makes these units even more dangerous than they normally are, and making the individual attacks more threatening helps to make up for it being harder to maneuvre lots of models into melee thanks to the new coherency and melee range rules. Huge hordes of Boyz with amped up numbers of attacks and strength are a very good counter to the Nurgle nonsense that’s been popular thus far, being one of the best tools for pushing through large wound sacks like Beasts and Chaos Spawn, which combined with them being Obsec lets this army counter that plan extremely well.
Ghaz and Da Boyz are obviously the focus of the list, and the rest of it appears to focus on making sure there’s a clear plan for the early game. Big Nobz in trukks (which can set up within a KFF bubble) provide a tool to push onto a mid board objective without exposing the Boyz to getting charged first by other high volume lists, and the Big Mek’s warlord trait ensures there’s coverage of ‘Ere We Go on turn 1 if Ghaz goes in a Tellyporta. Finally, a Weirdboy means the opponent has to operate under the ever-present threat of getting bowled over by a Da Jumping squad (and Unstoppable Green Tide also needs to be watched out for).
This list is a mean, green killing machine, and very much an army that you need to have some sort of plan to deal with, as I suspect it’ll only get more popular as time goes on.
That sounds like a really fun army to play against, honestly. Gosh I haven't played against Orks in forever. Mid 7th, maybe.
I love playing against orks and look to continue the beef with my buddy's free bootaz when we can get back to playing.
Freebootaz are fun, if occasionally unreliable way to run orks. Getting that +1 to hit through targeting priority, positioning and such feels very rewarding. Much better than, yay I rolled a 3 on my chaplain! Or just spending a CP or whatnot.
Kinda feel like we need more rules design like that. For the Eradicators and aggressors they're giving up something sure, but firing at the one target feels not as much of a negative as having to stand still with range 18 guns. And even then, still feels like you're not really making a tactical choice as much as saying, yeah why wouldn't I?
a_typical_hero wrote: So a bad army with weak units scored 2nd place in a tournament environment against (supposedly) Aggressor bombs, Eradicator spam and all the other Dakka boogeymen because the player understood objectives better?
Yeah but it doesn't count because only pussies win by the mission, real chads win by tabling their opponents all day everyday
I didn't say it didn't count. I'm just saying that isn't a good army. Winning by any means necessary is honorable - It doesn't matter how you chose to win. The issue is they have removed the way I want to win because a bunch of cry babies were like..."why do we even have objectives if all games end by a tabling at turn 3 or 4?"...Now in order to play competitive I have to use gamey tactics - build an army not how I want to but because it denies secondaries.
This has to be satire at this point it just has to be. So building a mindless list that can consistently win by tabling someone by turn 3, isn’t “gamey”, but playing Orks to conquer midfield ground and objectives and chop the gak out of anything you can make it into melee with is? God the complaints some of you guys make. When has it EVER been viable to run less than 120 boys, let alone in 9th where scoring is more valuable than ever? Orks are the definitive horde army and the definitive army for melee’ing units off the midfield with obsec bodies. In an edition where these two strengths are bigger than ever why would we suddenly stop doing that? LOL. On top of that, did you actually read the article, or just look at the list and make a snap decision on how it was played to win? Since I know you didn’t read it, let me give you a few spoilers, he rushed his opponent down in every single match. What is even the complaint here other than “this result doesn’t suit my narrative!”
Xenomancers wrote: I think now is the time I just become a campaign gamer.
Oh jeez you mean you’re not already? Yeah you should definitely consider this very strongly at this point.
Alwrath wrote: Orks were strong in 8th edition. 5 attacks at STR 5 on a regular boy when you have 120 of them on the table is going to do alot of damage, does not take a genius to figure it out.
Only way to get 120 Boyz at S5 with 5 attacks each is to spend 4CP upgrading each one to Skarboyz, which requires Goff Kulture and then only on the charge and only if you are using Ghaz who prior to his re-release was garbage and honestly, against good lists he didn't stand a chance either.
I was able to one shot him in a few games in 8th using my Campaign tournament list, and honestly, if he didn't die turn 1, he was absolutely dying turn 2.
If only Space marine players had some kind of anti-horde unit that was purpose built to obliterate large units of infantry. Like some kind of aggressive unit that could sit relatively close to the objective and dish out like 12 S4 shots per model at a ridiculously low cost like 40ppm Even then though it might not be enough so GW should probably give them some kind of innate ability to shoot twice if they don't move or something. Probably would stack pretty good with normal buffs like a LT or a chapter master so they could reroll misses and reroll failed wound rolls of a 1. Probably could reliably wipe out an entire unit of boyz each turn. But who knows, sounds like a pipe dream.
This Ork GT second place winner is my hero, it proves half the whiners on Dakka are just internet trolls who dont actually play the game, and just cry " Space Marines are OP cause they get all the shiny new stuff ", meanwhile, in some 28 year olds dark mother's basement, another guy runs home with all his space marine models crying after losing to an Ork list. Cause you know, Orks are OP in 8th apparently...
Alwrath wrote: This Ork GT second place winner is my hero, it proves half the whiners on Dakka are just internet trolls who dont actually play the game, and just cry " Space Marines are OP cause they get all the shiny new stuff ", meanwhile, in some 28 year olds dark mother's basement, another guy runs home with all his space marine models crying after losing to an Ork list. Cause you know, Orks are OP in 8th apparently...
These things aren't mutually exclusive. Space Marines can still be OP even if someone was able to compete with them on the day. It definitely does show that Orks aren't anywhere as bad as the consistently downright awful Ork players on this website would have had us believe though.
Alwrath wrote: This Ork GT second place winner is my hero, it proves half the whiners on Dakka are just internet trolls who dont actually play the game, and just cry " Space Marines are OP cause they get all the shiny new stuff ", meanwhile, in some 28 year olds dark mother's basement, another guy runs home with all his space marine models crying after losing to an Ork list. Cause you know, Orks are OP in 8th apparently...
These things aren't mutually exclusive. Space Marines can still be OP even if someone was able to compete with them on the day. It definitely does show that Orks aren't anywhere as bad as the consistently downright awful Ork players on this website would have had us believe though.
Ork players want new powerful toys to play with and shake up their lists. I can't say I blame them and hope they get it. to be honest I'd like to see every army get new toys. I'd like to see Orks and Eldar given a range update. I'd like to see Custodes fleshed out to feel like a more complete army (they're a touch bare bones now. I mean their vehicles are ALL handmedown marine stuff) I'd like to see the chaos marine update finished off with a plastic noise marine dex. and ya know, after this release.. I think primaris are in a complete place where I'd be fine if GW stopped with Marines for a bit beyond maybe the odd chapter specific character and upgrade pack for the forseeable future.
Man I'm pretty firmly pro-play-to-the-mission, but even I can recognize that building an army to sit in the magic circles and die as slowly as possible is pretty lame.
Maybe that's thrilling for people who are solely interested in whether or not they win, but for anyone who was attracted to Orks for the idea of gettin' stuck in and krumpin' heads, being told that your army is great
You may want to read the recaps from the guy playing.
Alwrath wrote: This Ork GT second place winner is my hero, it proves half the whiners on Dakka are just internet trolls who dont actually play the game, and just cry " Space Marines are OP cause they get all the shiny new stuff ", meanwhile, in some 28 year olds dark mother's basement, another guy runs home with all his space marine models crying after losing to an Ork list. Cause you know, Orks are OP in 8th apparently...
These things aren't mutually exclusive. Space Marines can still be OP even if someone was able to compete with them on the day. It definitely does show that Orks aren't anywhere as bad as the consistently downright awful Ork players on this website would have had us believe though.
Ork players want new powerful toys to play with and shake up their lists. I can't say I blame them and hope they get it. to be honest I'd like to see every army get new toys. I'd like to see Orks and Eldar given a range update. I'd like to see Custodes fleshed out to feel like a more complete army (they're a touch bare bones now. I mean their vehicles are ALL handmedown marine stuff) I'd like to see the chaos marine update finished off with a plastic noise marine dex. and ya know, after this release.. I think primaris are in a complete place where I'd be fine if GW stopped with Marines for a bit beyond maybe the odd chapter specific character and upgrade pack for the forseeable future.
wouldn't it be the other way around?
but I digress, I'm cool with them not getting a release for a while. not that I'm keeping up w the(Jones's) new releases, more so that I think they dont really need much more in terms of functioning as Primaris by themselves.
Alwrath wrote: This Ork GT second place winner is my hero, it proves half the whiners on Dakka are just internet trolls who dont actually play the game, and just cry " Space Marines are OP cause they get all the shiny new stuff ", meanwhile, in some 28 year olds dark mother's basement, another guy runs home with all his space marine models crying after losing to an Ork list. Cause you know, Orks are OP in 8th apparently...
These things aren't mutually exclusive. Space Marines can still be OP even if someone was able to compete with them on the day. It definitely does show that Orks aren't anywhere as bad as the consistently downright awful Ork players on this website would have had us believe though.
Ork players want new powerful toys to play with and shake up their lists. I can't say I blame them and hope they get it. to be honest I'd like to see every army get new toys. I'd like to see Orks and Eldar given a range update. I'd like to see Custodes fleshed out to feel like a more complete army (they're a touch bare bones now. I mean their vehicles are ALL handmedown marine stuff) I'd like to see the chaos marine update finished off with a plastic noise marine dex. and ya know, after this release.. I think primaris are in a complete place where I'd be fine if GW stopped with Marines for a bit beyond maybe the odd chapter specific character and upgrade pack for the forseeable future.
wouldn't it be the other way around?
but I digress, I'm cool with them not getting a release for a while. not that I'm keeping up w the(Jones's) new releases, more so that I think they dont really need much more in terms of functioning as Primaris by themselves.
well I'm talking from an OOC standpoint.
And yeah I think Primaris are effectively complete. I think I understand what GW's design goal here is and I thiiiink they're done, some more vetern units might be kinda nice just to pad out the 1st company, and a jump pack unit would be swell but other then that and an aircraft, yeah I think the lines more or less complete.
SemperMortis wrote: If only Space marine players had some kind of anti-horde unit that was purpose built to obliterate large units of infantry. Like some kind of aggressive unit that could sit relatively close to the objective and dish out like 12 S4 shots per model at a ridiculously low cost like 40ppm Even then though it might not be enough so GW should probably give them some kind of innate ability to shoot twice if they don't move or something. Probably would stack pretty good with normal buffs like a LT or a chapter master so they could reroll misses and reroll failed wound rolls of a 1. Probably could reliably wipe out an entire unit of boyz each turn. But who knows, sounds like a pipe dream.
He faced Boltstorm Aggressors in the first list and won:
Spoiler:
Ultramarines Battalion
Phobos Cap – Soldiers Blade, Imperium’s Sword
Cassius – Catachism of Fire, Recitation of Focus
Primaris LT (Indomitus) – WL, Adept of the Codex, Seal of Oath
5 Infiltrators
5 Scouts
5 Scouts
6 Bolt Aggressors
Invictor
Invictor
6 Plasma Inceptors
Leviathan w/ 2x storm cannon
5 Grav Devs Drop Pod
Man I'm pretty firmly pro-play-to-the-mission, but even I can recognize that building an army to sit in the magic circles and die as slowly as possible is pretty lame.
Maybe that's thrilling for people who are solely interested in whether or not they win, but for anyone who was attracted to Orks for the idea of gettin' stuck in and krumpin' heads, being told that your army is great
You may want to read the recaps from the guy playing.
Yeah I usually agree with most of what catbarf says, but it feels like he built his impression on how the list played from reading some posts from the baddies in here who just outright decided it played. The army recaps all describe a list that picked tactical avenues of approach to rush down and chop up everything they could while having enough numbers to not be pushed off objectives easily. All those boys are aimed for getting in combat, not for sitting on objectives, hence the massive investment into buffing their offends with Skarboys / Ghaz etc. This was not a list designed to mill about and try outlast firepower on top of objectives, that’s like the opposite of what he did.
SemperMortis wrote: If only Space marine players had some kind of anti-horde unit that was purpose built to obliterate large units of infantry. Like some kind of aggressive unit that could sit relatively close to the objective and dish out like 12 S4 shots per model at a ridiculously low cost like 40ppm Even then though it might not be enough so GW should probably give them some kind of innate ability to shoot twice if they don't move or something. Probably would stack pretty good with normal buffs like a LT or a chapter master so they could reroll misses and reroll failed wound rolls of a 1. Probably could reliably wipe out an entire unit of boyz each turn. But who knows, sounds like a pipe dream.
He faced Boltstorm Aggressors in the first list and won:
Spoiler:
Ultramarines Battalion
Phobos Cap – Soldiers Blade, Imperium’s Sword
Cassius – Catachism of Fire, Recitation of Focus
Primaris LT (Indomitus) – WL, Adept of the Codex, Seal of Oath
5 Infiltrators
5 Scouts
5 Scouts
6 Bolt Aggressors
Invictor
Invictor
6 Plasma Inceptors
Leviathan w/ 2x storm cannon
5 Grav Devs Drop Pod
SemperMortis wrote: If only Space marine players had some kind of anti-horde unit that was purpose built to obliterate large units of infantry. Like some kind of aggressive unit that could sit relatively close to the objective and dish out like 12 S4 shots per model at a ridiculously low cost like 40ppm Even then though it might not be enough so GW should probably give them some kind of innate ability to shoot twice if they don't move or something. Probably would stack pretty good with normal buffs like a LT or a chapter master so they could reroll misses and reroll failed wound rolls of a 1. Probably could reliably wipe out an entire unit of boyz each turn. But who knows, sounds like a pipe dream.
He faced Boltstorm Aggressors in the first list and won:
Spoiler:
Ultramarines Battalion
Phobos Cap – Soldiers Blade, Imperium’s Sword
Cassius – Catachism of Fire, Recitation of Focus
Primaris LT (Indomitus) – WL, Adept of the Codex, Seal of Oath
5 Infiltrators
5 Scouts
5 Scouts
6 Bolt Aggressors
Invictor
Invictor
6 Plasma Inceptors
Leviathan w/ 2x storm cannon
5 Grav Devs Drop Pod
I could see a list like that lose to 120 boys yes.
I much more fear lists like this from a tourney a few weeks ago
SemperMortis wrote: If only Space marine players had some kind of anti-horde unit that was purpose built to obliterate large units of infantry. Like some kind of aggressive unit that could sit relatively close to the objective and dish out like 12 S4 shots per model at a ridiculously low cost like 40ppm Even then though it might not be enough so GW should probably give them some kind of innate ability to shoot twice if they don't move or something. Probably would stack pretty good with normal buffs like a LT or a chapter master so they could reroll misses and reroll failed wound rolls of a 1. Probably could reliably wipe out an entire unit of boyz each turn. But who knows, sounds like a pipe dream.
He faced Boltstorm Aggressors in the first list and won:
Spoiler:
Ultramarines Battalion
Phobos Cap – Soldiers Blade, Imperium’s Sword
Cassius – Catachism of Fire, Recitation of Focus
Primaris LT (Indomitus) – WL, Adept of the Codex, Seal of Oath
5 Infiltrators
5 Scouts
5 Scouts
6 Bolt Aggressors
Invictor
Invictor
6 Plasma Inceptors
Leviathan w/ 2x storm cannon
5 Grav Devs Drop Pod
I could see a list like that lose to 120 boys yes.
I much more fear lists like this from a tourney a few weeks ago
The firepower to delete squads combined with CC power to lock down units
When they first previewed the codex some eagle eyed people spotted that space Marine scouts where listed in the elites section of the TOC. so that could change lists like that up. gone would be the relativley cheap source of troops. with that change Marines cheapest troop is going to be the 17 PPM assault intercessor. meaning marines would need to bare minimum spend 255 points on troops. it's minor, but even as a Marine player I'll be glad to see the days of "3 scout squads as the troops" battle forces gone
Insectum7 wrote: It will be weird seeing Scouts in the Elites slot, but forcing power armor into the Troops slot is good.
it will be a bit odd (although I started space wolves a year back so I've gotten used to it) but yeah I agree. the basic core troop choice of a Marine army should be a Marine.
And before someone asks me about Chaos Marines, I'm of the opinion Cultists should be removed and we should instead get a proper renegades and heretics army
And yeah I think Primaris are effectively complete. I think I understand what GW's design goal here is and I thiiiink they're done, some more vetern units might be kinda nice just to pad out the 1st company, and a jump pack unit would be swell but other then that and an aircraft, yeah I think the lines more or less complete.
They need a Jump Fight unit.
They need Aircraft.
The models we've been shown but haven't gotten yet, ATV, some sort of non-transport Tank, etc.
They need to figure out what they're doing with Terminators/First Companies.
They need to work on the Imulsor Orbital Bombardment if it's going to be the Vindicator replacement. It's not very good.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Insectum7 wrote: It will be weird seeing Scouts in the Elites slot, but forcing power armor into the Troops slot is good.
Unless they give scouts some sort of pony to trick out, that'll kill them, but - assuming true - was likely a response to all the 3x5 scouts + toys min/max lists. It's too bad, I liked taking a couple 2x10 Power Armor Troops and 1x10 Scout Armor troops
And yeah I think Primaris are effectively complete. I think I understand what GW's design goal here is and I thiiiink they're done, some more vetern units might be kinda nice just to pad out the 1st company, and a jump pack unit would be swell but other then that and an aircraft, yeah I think the lines more or less complete.
They need a Jump Fight unit.
They need Aircraft.
The models we've been shown but haven't gotten yet, ATV, some sort of non-transport Tank, etc.
They need to figure out what they're doing with Terminators/First Companies.
They need to work on the Imulsor Orbital Bombardment if it's going to be the Vindicator replacement. It's not very good.
I suspect the new gladiator is intended to be the primaris "replacement" for the vindicator, predator etc. remember they're not doing exact 1 to 1 replacements.
I suspect the new gladiator is intended to be the primaris "replacement" for the vindicator, predator etc. remember they're not doing exact 1 to 1 replacements.
Yeah I looked them up first. I'm not sure either the Valiant or the Lancer is the Vindicator though. If the Heavy Laser Destroyer is eligible for Ordnance rules in future editions, the Repuslor Executioner is even worse than we think.
Breton wrote:You may want to read the recaps from the guy playing.
Nitro Zeus wrote:Yeah I usually agree with most of what catbarf says, but it feels like he built his impression on how the list played from reading some posts from the baddies in here who just outright decided it played. The army recaps all describe a list that picked tactical avenues of approach to rush down and chop up everything they could while having enough numbers to not be pushed off objectives easily. All those boys are aimed for getting in combat, not for sitting on objectives, hence the massive investment into buffing their offends with Skarboys / Ghaz etc. This was not a list designed to mill about and try outlast firepower on top of objectives, that’s like the opposite of what he did.
I had not read that recap when I made my post, mea culpa. I was responding specifically to the implication, as I saw it, that if an army known for aggression and fighting can't fight but can out-attrition on objectives, then it's in a fine place. It looks like that isn't actually relevant so I'll stop tilting at windmills.
What would you guys suggest for armies like Daemons, that don't have quite the access to offensive buffs that Orks do but have cheaper models (well, Daemonettes specifically)?
I've actually had pretty good success with mono-Slaanesh in 9th, but I'm not sure I've been super challenged yet either by a list tailored to beat Keepers (a list with lots of anti-tank shooting that is resistant to charges/has screens/some other issue).
Unit1126PLL wrote: What would you guys suggest for armies like Daemons, that don't have quite the access to offensive buffs that Orks do but have cheaper models (well, Daemonettes specifically)?
I've actually had pretty good success with mono-Slaanesh in 9th, but I'm not sure I've been super challenged yet either by a list tailored to beat Keepers (a list with lots of anti-tank shooting that is resistant to charges/has screens/some other issue).
Unit1126PLL wrote: What would you guys suggest for armies like Daemons, that don't have quite the access to offensive buffs that Orks do but have cheaper models (well, Daemonettes specifically)?
I've actually had pretty good success with mono-Slaanesh in 9th, but I'm not sure I've been super challenged yet either by a list tailored to beat Keepers (a list with lots of anti-tank shooting that is resistant to charges/has screens/some other issue).
Do we have a better tournament balance than people care to admit?
I think we do. I do think that the tactics are very monobuild. The Daemons guy in the thread is talking about how he build the list specifically to the mission pack - which is awesome, imho, don't get me wrong. In competitive play, that sort of advantage is a good get.
I think the main complaint about marines comes from the casual arena, where the mission pack is "eh, whatever, want to just kill each other?" 5 times out of 10, and the army lists are 'hhm, I am playing against Orks, lemme replace this <thing> with <thing> in my handwritten list constructed 15 mins before the game".
Unit1126PLL wrote: I think the main complaint about marines comes from the casual arena, where the mission pack is "eh, whatever, want to just kill each other?" 5 times out of 10, and the army lists are 'hhm, I am playing against Orks, lemme replace this <thing> with <thing> in my handwritten list constructed 15 mins before the game".
That is interesting. How is that handled in your local meta?
In mine we discourage people from list tailoring. "Bring an army as if you don't know your opponent". For missions we roll randomly on the CA2020 table.
I recently started to reroll the missions that have too big of an advantage for the player who goes first (based on the Goonhammer article a few weeks back)
Do we have a better tournament balance than people care to admit?
I think we do. I do think that the tactics are very monobuild.
I think this is going to be a very important distinction to make, especially as 9th leans into the Matched versus Crusade mission styles (which are very different) with more and more releases.
I recently started to reroll the missions that have too big of an advantage for the player who goes first (based on the Goonhammer article a few weeks back)
This is something my LGS crew has been doing for a while, as particular armies have significant issues in particular missions (the one with the honking null field is one we basically didnt play for the second half of 8th for instance). I expect once plague resolves we'll adapt the approach for 9th, or alter the deployment / first turn.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I think the main complaint about marines comes from the casual arena, where the mission pack is "eh, whatever, want to just kill each other?" 5 times out of 10, and the army lists are 'hhm, I am playing against Orks, lemme replace this <thing> with <thing> in my handwritten list constructed 15 mins before the game".
That is interesting. How is that handled in your local meta?
In mine we discourage people from list tailoring. "Bring an army as if you don't know your opponent". For missions we roll randomly on the CA2020 table.
I recently started to reroll the missions that have too big of an advantage for the player who goes first (based on the Goonhammer article a few weeks back)
It isn't handled. I mean, not officially. The club doesn't force people to write their lists at a specific way or time or have any specific mechanism for missions.
I am getting much of my excitement and fun from a local campaign that's using modified Crusade rules to become more escalation-style (so starting at 20pl, going up 5 every two weeks. Now we're at 35, this sunday we go up to 40). It helps that we have space to play as the club is able to rent a huge area where we can set up lots of tables and socially distance once weekly.
SemperMortis wrote: If only Space marine players had some kind of anti-horde unit that was purpose built to obliterate large units of infantry. Like some kind of aggressive unit that could sit relatively close to the objective and dish out like 12 S4 shots per model at a ridiculously low cost like 40ppm Even then though it might not be enough so GW should probably give them some kind of innate ability to shoot twice if they don't move or something. Probably would stack pretty good with normal buffs like a LT or a chapter master so they could reroll misses and reroll failed wound rolls of a 1. Probably could reliably wipe out an entire unit of boyz each turn. But who knows, sounds like a pipe dream.
He faced Boltstorm Aggressors in the first list and won:
Spoiler:
Ultramarines Battalion Phobos Cap – Soldiers Blade, Imperium’s Sword Cassius – Catachism of Fire, Recitation of Focus Primaris LT (Indomitus) – WL, Adept of the Codex, Seal of Oath 5 Infiltrators 5 Scouts 5 Scouts 6 Bolt Aggressors Invictor Invictor 6 Plasma Inceptors Leviathan w/ 2x storm cannon 5 Grav Devs Drop Pod
NO WAY! DUDE! Orkz with Hundreds of infantry in an edition that prioritizes objectives being held by infantry were able to beat a SM list that had....29 infantry models, 15 of whom were troops with Objective secure. It's almost like this guy built a list to table opponents and lost on objectives because he couldn't hold any of the points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My Tournament list (Whenever they open back up) is going to be Ork boyz backed up by KFF's and Painboyz. I don't intend to kill much if anything, but you know what? I'll be able to easily plant 30 bodies on an objective with a 5++ and a 6+ FNP.
Skew lists based on objective holding are going to do well because at the moment you have players adjusting to the meta and bringing tons of anti-vehicle units and anti-elite stuff like 300pts of Plasma inceptors which are good but complete overkill vs a T4 6+ save boy who costs 8pts. Those Inceptors are going to struggle to earn back their points shooting at boyz, let alone do anything like take an objective.
Dudeface wrote: Place bets, if Eradicators aren't core, no rerolls any more.
There is a chance they are if bikes are core then Eradicators will be, too. It will certainly be a decent slap to Salamanders since they're also losing their re-roll to hit.
Dudeface wrote: Place bets, if Eradicators aren't core, no rerolls any more.
You mean no more Shoot Twice? We already know if they aren't CORE rerolls will be few and far between if not entirely absent.
I think it's more likely they are CORE than not CORE though. If Terminators are CORE - and that was one of the example units that would be - then I can't see how Aggressors and Eradicators wouldn't be. If they're the Primaris analog to Terminators they'd need to be CORE, if they're just regular Devs and such in upgraded Armor, they'd still be Core?
Dudeface wrote: Place bets, if Eradicators aren't core, no rerolls any more.
You mean no more Shoot Twice? We already know if they aren't CORE rerolls will be few and far between if not entirely absent.
I think it's more likely they are CORE than not CORE though. If Terminators are CORE - and that was one of the example units that would be - then I can't see how Aggressors and Eradicators wouldn't be. If they're the Primaris analog to Terminators they'd need to be CORE, if they're just regular Devs and such in upgraded Armor, they'd still be Core?
depends, terminators are basicly a "super tactical marine" GW might wanna keep the core thing to troops and units that are effectively "vetern troops" but yeah we dunno for sure. My gut is it'll be, for marines, infantry bikes and dreads that have it. because GW has always envisioned those units as the core of a marine army
Dudeface wrote: Place bets, if Eradicators aren't core, no rerolls any more.
You mean no more Shoot Twice? We already know if they aren't CORE rerolls will be few and far between if not entirely absent.
I think it's more likely they are CORE than not CORE though. If Terminators are CORE - and that was one of the example units that would be - then I can't see how Aggressors and Eradicators wouldn't be. If they're the Primaris analog to Terminators they'd need to be CORE, if they're just regular Devs and such in upgraded Armor, they'd still be Core?
If terminators are core (which they apparently are), and gravis are core, then the question becomes what -wont- be core, other than tanks. Cos terminators and gravis are extremely powerful and elite units, so if they're included then most things would be.
I've seen people questioning if wraithguard would be core, but they are effectively the eldar terminators so I can only assume ... well nothing, cos it's GW.
Dudeface wrote: Place bets, if Eradicators aren't core, no rerolls any more.
You mean no more Shoot Twice? We already know if they aren't CORE rerolls will be few and far between if not entirely absent.
I think it's more likely they are CORE than not CORE though. If Terminators are CORE - and that was one of the example units that would be - then I can't see how Aggressors and Eradicators wouldn't be. If they're the Primaris analog to Terminators they'd need to be CORE, if they're just regular Devs and such in upgraded Armor, they'd still be Core?
depends, terminators are basicly a "super tactical marine" GW might wanna keep the core thing to troops and units that are effectively "vetern troops" but yeah we dunno for sure. My gut is it'll be, for marines, infantry bikes and dreads that have it. because GW has always envisioned those units as the core of a marine army
Warhammer Community - Emphasis mine wrote:The Core keyword is used to identify units that form the fighting… well, core, of an army. These are most commonly represented by units of line infantry, though this doesn’t mean it’s exclusive to Troops, nor just Infantry.
In the case of the first two books, Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Necrons many Elite units such as Terminator Squads and Lychguard, as well as Fast Attack units like Bike Squads and Tomb Blades, have the Core keyword. Even some Vehicles will be Core units too, where appropriate.
Now they specifically mention Elite, Troops, and Fast Attack. No mention of HS. Maybe Heavy Support Infantry doesn't get it, but if not, that's going to be fun to watch. I don't think they're dumb enough to exclude Heavy Support slot Infantry, and there's no way for GW to rationalize including Termies but not Aggressors, Intercessors but Not Aggressors, Heavy Intercessors but not Devs, Devs but Not Hellbalsters, or Devs but not Eradicators. If Gravis are Elite Primaris (i,e. Primaris Terminators) how come old marine terminators get it but not the new ones? If Gravis are just regular Primaris in thicker armor, why do they get it in Mark X Tacticus, but not Mark X Gravis? Its the same guy with the same brain in the armor. If it's not (almost) all infantry the mental gymnastics they're going to have to go through would score a perfect 10 at the Olympics.
Dudeface wrote: Place bets, if Eradicators aren't core, no rerolls any more.
You mean no more Shoot Twice? We already know if they aren't CORE rerolls will be few and far between if not entirely absent.
I think it's more likely they are CORE than not CORE though. If Terminators are CORE - and that was one of the example units that would be - then I can't see how Aggressors and Eradicators wouldn't be. If they're the Primaris analog to Terminators they'd need to be CORE, if they're just regular Devs and such in upgraded Armor, they'd still be Core?
If terminators are core (which they apparently are), and gravis are core, then the question becomes what -wont- be core, other than tanks. Cos terminators and gravis are extremely powerful and elite units, so if they're included then most things would be.
I've seen people questioning if wraithguard would be core, but they are effectively the eldar terminators so I can only assume ... well nothing, cos it's GW.
not really. the only thing they have going for them is durability. in terms of raw FIREPOWER terminators and heavy intercessors aren't a huuuge upgrade. if I was worried about re-roll auras from a design POV Id consider terminators less potentially problematic then hellblasters.
If terminators are core (which they apparently are), and gravis are core, then the question becomes what -wont- be core, other than tanks. Cos terminators and gravis are extremely powerful and elite units, so if they're included then most things would be.
I've seen people questioning if wraithguard would be core, but they are effectively the eldar terminators so I can only assume ... well nothing, cos it's GW.
I've already predicted Wraithguard will be CORE. The tanks won't be. We've seen most of a new Speeder sheet, and they were (as yet) not.
Each of the Big Four Marines had their own XXXXX Squad flavor at the beginning. Ultras - Tactical, BA - Assault, DA - Terminators, SW - technically Devastator (Later morphing into Terminators and/or Assault/Tactical Sword Brother hybrids) To remove CORE from one of those Flavor Squads at the same time they're already likely to lose a lot of their unique flavor units/bits/etc is an unlikely move.
Looking at Lists I imagine the CORE units will be non-character Infantry, the handful of Infantry plus SWAT bomb robot artillery (Thunderfire Cannons, Eldar Support Weapons, Mek Guns, and so on but not Earthshakers, Whirlwinds, etc), potentially walkers, and some iconic large models that are either bad, or would be bad without a boost, or otherwise might cause some consternation if not included - Leman Russ (which already at times have ObSec), Monoliths, Knights.
I'm also predicting Guilliman gets reworked and/or to lose his <IMPERIUM> ability just to prevent parking lots from both entrances.
Breton wrote: I don't think they're dumb enough to exclude Heavy Support slot Infantry, and there's no way for GW to rationalize including Termies but not Aggressors, Intercessors but Not Aggressors, Heavy Intercessors but not Devs, Devs but Not Hellbalsters, or Devs but not Eradicators. If Gravis are Elite Primaris (i,e. Primaris Terminators) how come old marine terminators get it but not the new ones? If Gravis are just regular Primaris in thicker armor, why do they get it in Mark X Tacticus, but not Mark X Gravis? Its the same guy with the same brain in the armor. If it's not (almost) all infantry the mental gymnastics they're going to have to go through would score a perfect 10 at the Olympics.
Kelly and Cruddace managed to rationalize primaris and ugly squats having allergy to each other transport vehicles. Which was comically dumb already in 8th, but is just plain stupid in 9th when both have same statlines (and doubly so with Deathwatch, who can transport BIKES in theirs but reiver is somehow too heavy or something ). So, yeah...
I've been saying since it was announced that we can expect core to apply to infantry bikes and dreads. because thats what GW sees as the core of space marines. course remember that this is the same design philophsy which had marines getting their CTs only applying to infantry, bikes and dreads so the cynic in me says when some armies (guard and CWE for example) get revised for 9E GW won't bother to impliment the core key word at all
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Did you guys really think Eliminators wouldn't be core when Terminators were revealed as core?
No, but I'm quite curious as to whether Reece is blowing smoke up our asses about Aggressor nerfs and since CORE isn't it then what and does that also apply to Eradicators.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Did you guys really think Eliminators wouldn't be core when Terminators were revealed as core?
No, but I'm quite curious as to whether Reece is blowing smoke up our asses about Aggressor nerfs and since CORE isn't it then what and does that also apply to Eradicators.
You mean Reece, who said "Ork Stompas will be the best" and "Grey Knights are perfect even if they get a Smite nerf", might have been LYING?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Did you guys really think Eliminators wouldn't be core when Terminators were revealed as core?
No, but I'm quite curious as to whether Reece is blowing smoke up our asses about Aggressor nerfs and since CORE isn't it then what and does that also apply to Eradicators.
Well considering the source... Seriously, maybe aggressors lose their double shoot? Don't know.
As far as eradicators, I never really factored rerolls into their effectiveness. When the codex drops loyalists will be limited to one captain per detachment, are they going to relegate that captain to units that need to get within 24 to be effective against their targets? Eradicators seem almost tailor made for the new tactical reserves rules, they want to get in deep into your lines. That's what I think makes them good, they're effective without character support. I'm more worried about the strategems that will still affect them if they get the CORE keyword, 9 T5 3+ wounds with Transhuman Physiology tacked on them will be an aggravation to get rid of. Maybe we'll get lucky and that won't make it into the new codex, but I doubt it. Gw likes messing with the wounding table too much.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Did you guys really think Eliminators wouldn't be core when Terminators were revealed as core?
No, but I'm quite curious as to whether Reece is blowing smoke up our asses about Aggressor nerfs and since CORE isn't it then what and does that also apply to Eradicators.
You mean Reece, who said "Ork Stompas will be the best" and "Grey Knights are perfect even if they get a Smite nerf", might have been LYING?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Did you guys really think Eliminators wouldn't be core when Terminators were revealed as core?
No, but I'm quite curious as to whether Reece is blowing smoke up our asses about Aggressor nerfs and since CORE isn't it then what and does that also apply to Eradicators.
You mean Reece, who said "Ork Stompas will be the best" and "Grey Knights are perfect even if they get a Smite nerf", might have been LYING?
Even a broken clock yadda yadda.
If that's really the analogy you need to use then there's a problem. Taking ANYTHING Reece says as even potentially true is just a bad idea.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Did you guys really think Eliminators wouldn't be core when Terminators were revealed as core?
No, but I'm quite curious as to whether Reece is blowing smoke up our asses about Aggressor nerfs and since CORE isn't it then what and does that also apply to Eradicators.
Well considering the source... Seriously, maybe aggressors lose their double shoot? Don't know.
As far as eradicators, I never really factored rerolls into their effectiveness. When the codex drops loyalists will be limited to one captain per detachment, are they going to relegate that captain to units that need to get within 24 to be effective against their targets? Eradicators seem almost tailor made for the new tactical reserves rules, they want to get in deep into your lines. That's what I think makes them good, they're effective without character support. I'm more worried about the strategems that will still affect them if they get the CORE keyword, 9 T5 3+ wounds with Transhuman Physiology tacked on them will be an aggravation to get rid of. Maybe we'll get lucky and that won't make it into the new codex, but I doubt it. Gw likes messing with the wounding table too much.
Just charge them. Their threat range is in reasonable charge range for almost any unit if they coming in from the edge of the table. Charge them with a tank! Even better.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: If that's really the analogy you need to use then there's a problem. Taking ANYTHING Reece says as even potentially true is just a bad idea.
I think he's enthusiastic, but people have honed in on a couple of his statements from very early in 8th and people like to burn him in effigy just like how Matt Ward eats babies.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Did you guys really think Eliminators wouldn't be core when Terminators were revealed as core?
No, but I'm quite curious as to whether Reece is blowing smoke up our asses about Aggressor nerfs and since CORE isn't it then what and does that also apply to Eradicators.
Well considering the source... Seriously, maybe aggressors lose their double shoot? Don't know.
As far as eradicators, I never really factored rerolls into their effectiveness. When the codex drops loyalists will be limited to one captain per detachment, are they going to relegate that captain to units that need to get within 24 to be effective against their targets? Eradicators seem almost tailor made for the new tactical reserves rules, they want to get in deep into your lines. That's what I think makes them good, they're effective without character support. I'm more worried about the strategems that will still affect them if they get the CORE keyword, 9 T5 3+ wounds with Transhuman Physiology tacked on them will be an aggravation to get rid of. Maybe we'll get lucky and that won't make it into the new codex, but I doubt it. Gw likes messing with the wounding table too much.
Just charge them. Their threat range is in reasonable charge range for almost any unit if they coming in from the edge of the table. Charge them with a tank! Even better.
Yes, flattening them with the Fellblade they came to kill would be quite satisfying, but with Transhuman Physiology it ain't happening. Better to just feed them to the Warp Talons. And that's still assuming there's only one squad of the little buggers.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Did you guys really think Eliminators wouldn't be core when Terminators were revealed as core?
No, but I'm quite curious as to whether Reece is blowing smoke up our asses about Aggressor nerfs and since CORE isn't it then what and does that also apply to Eradicators.
Well considering the source... Seriously, maybe aggressors lose their double shoot? Don't know.
As far as eradicators, I never really factored rerolls into their effectiveness. When the codex drops loyalists will be limited to one captain per detachment, are they going to relegate that captain to units that need to get within 24 to be effective against their targets? Eradicators seem almost tailor made for the new tactical reserves rules, they want to get in deep into your lines. That's what I think makes them good, they're effective without character support. I'm more worried about the strategems that will still affect them if they get the CORE keyword, 9 T5 3+ wounds with Transhuman Physiology tacked on them will be an aggravation to get rid of. Maybe we'll get lucky and that won't make it into the new codex, but I doubt it. Gw likes messing with the wounding table too much.
Just charge them. Their threat range is in reasonable charge range for almost any unit if they coming in from the edge of the table. Charge them with a tank! Even better.
Yes, flattening them with the Fellblade they came to kill would be quite satisfying, but with Transhuman Physiology it ain't happening. Better to just feed them to the Warp Talons. And that's still assuming there's only one squad of the little buggers.
Just saying game mechanics wise - charging them with a tank is great. Transhuman not going to be too helpful there ether - because that unit is never shooting again anyways. Erads can't fall back and shoot and tanks can shoot into their own melee and can keep recharging them when they fallback. Fellblade is t9 also. A unit of erads does very little to a fellblade.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Did you guys really think Eliminators wouldn't be core when Terminators were revealed as core?
No, but I'm quite curious as to whether Reece is blowing smoke up our asses about Aggressor nerfs and since CORE isn't it then what and does that also apply to Eradicators.
Well considering the source... Seriously, maybe aggressors lose their double shoot? Don't know.
As far as eradicators, I never really factored rerolls into their effectiveness. When the codex drops loyalists will be limited to one captain per detachment, are they going to relegate that captain to units that need to get within 24 to be effective against their targets? Eradicators seem almost tailor made for the new tactical reserves rules, they want to get in deep into your lines. That's what I think makes them good, they're effective without character support. I'm more worried about the strategems that will still affect them if they get the CORE keyword, 9 T5 3+ wounds with Transhuman Physiology tacked on them will be an aggravation to get rid of. Maybe we'll get lucky and that won't make it into the new codex, but I doubt it. Gw likes messing with the wounding table too much.
Just charge them. Their threat range is in reasonable charge range for almost any unit if they coming in from the edge of the table. Charge them with a tank! Even better.
Yes, flattening them with the Fellblade they came to kill would be quite satisfying, but with Transhuman Physiology it ain't happening. Better to just feed them to the Warp Talons. And that's still assuming there's only one squad of the little buggers.
Just saying game mechanics wise - charging them with a tank is great. Transhuman not going to be too helpful there ether - because that unit is never shooting again anyways. Erads can't fall back and shoot and tanks can shoot into their own melee and can keep recharging them when they fallback. Fellblade is t9 also. A unit of erads does very little to a fellblade.
Warp talons will shred them though.
A Feelblade is also ridiculously overpriced.
Also, 10 Warp Talons (1 attack, +1 for first round of combat, +1 for dual Lightning Claws, and the Champ gets a singular extra one too) do...
31 attacks
63/3 hits
315/27 or 35/3 wounds
70/9 failed saves, for two dead and one wounded assuming no FNP
So, for more than twice the price of three Eradicators, you can almost kill a squad! Assuming, you know, you can charge them. It's definitely possible (I believe Warp Talons can get up to +4 to a charge out of Deep Strike) but is it worth it?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Did you guys really think Eliminators wouldn't be core when Terminators were revealed as core?
No, but I'm quite curious as to whether Reece is blowing smoke up our asses about Aggressor nerfs and since CORE isn't it then what and does that also apply to Eradicators.
Well considering the source... Seriously, maybe aggressors lose their double shoot? Don't know.
As far as eradicators, I never really factored rerolls into their effectiveness. When the codex drops loyalists will be limited to one captain per detachment, are they going to relegate that captain to units that need to get within 24 to be effective against their targets? Eradicators seem almost tailor made for the new tactical reserves rules, they want to get in deep into your lines. That's what I think makes them good, they're effective without character support. I'm more worried about the strategems that will still affect them if they get the CORE keyword, 9 T5 3+ wounds with Transhuman Physiology tacked on them will be an aggravation to get rid of. Maybe we'll get lucky and that won't make it into the new codex, but I doubt it. Gw likes messing with the wounding table too much.
Just charge them. Their threat range is in reasonable charge range for almost any unit if they coming in from the edge of the table. Charge them with a tank! Even better.
Yes, flattening them with the Fellblade they came to kill would be quite satisfying, but with Transhuman Physiology it ain't happening. Better to just feed them to the Warp Talons. And that's still assuming there's only one squad of the little buggers.
Just saying game mechanics wise - charging them with a tank is great. Transhuman not going to be too helpful there ether - because that unit is never shooting again anyways. Erads can't fall back and shoot and tanks can shoot into their own melee and can keep recharging them when they fallback. Fellblade is t9 also. A unit of erads does very little to a fellblade.
Warp talons will shred them though.
A Feelblade is also ridiculously overpriced.
Also, 10 Warp Talons (1 attack, +1 for first round of combat, +1 for dual Lightning Claws, and the Champ gets a singular extra one too) do...
31 attacks
63/3 hits
315/27 or 35/3 wounds
70/9 failed saves, for two dead and one wounded assuming no FNP
So, for more than twice the price of three Eradicators, you can almost kill a squad! Assuming, you know, you can charge them. It's definitely possible (I believe Warp Talons can get up to +4 to a charge out of Deep Strike) but is it worth it?
Well they would kill the eradicators in melee in their next turn. Also IDK if you are factoring in DTTFE.
Agreed - fellblade costs too much. It's maingun is fething garbo too.
JNAProductions wrote: Assuming, you know, you can charge them. It's definitely possible (I believe Warp Talons can get up to +4 to a charge out of Deep Strike) but is it worth it?
No longer since the Vigilus stuff is out. Here's hoping that stuff makes an appearance in the new book.
Are LC going to S5? I don't recall seeing them on a leaked sheet.
Also Talons are in a really weird place for points right now that is most likely incorrect.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Did you guys really think Eliminators wouldn't be core when Terminators were revealed as core?
No, but I'm quite curious as to whether Reece is blowing smoke up our asses about Aggressor nerfs and since CORE isn't it then what and does that also apply to Eradicators.
Well considering the source... Seriously, maybe aggressors lose their double shoot? Don't know.
As far as eradicators, I never really factored rerolls into their effectiveness. When the codex drops loyalists will be limited to one captain per detachment, are they going to relegate that captain to units that need to get within 24 to be effective against their targets? Eradicators seem almost tailor made for the new tactical reserves rules, they want to get in deep into your lines. That's what I think makes them good, they're effective without character support. I'm more worried about the strategems that will still affect them if they get the CORE keyword, 9 T5 3+ wounds with Transhuman Physiology tacked on them will be an aggravation to get rid of. Maybe we'll get lucky and that won't make it into the new codex, but I doubt it. Gw likes messing with the wounding table too much.
Just charge them. Their threat range is in reasonable charge range for almost any unit if they coming in from the edge of the table. Charge them with a tank! Even better.
Yes, flattening them with the Fellblade they came to kill would be quite satisfying, but with Transhuman Physiology it ain't happening. Better to just feed them to the Warp Talons. And that's still assuming there's only one squad of the little buggers.
Just saying game mechanics wise - charging them with a tank is great. Transhuman not going to be too helpful there ether - because that unit is never shooting again anyways. Erads can't fall back and shoot and tanks can shoot into their own melee and can keep recharging them when they fallback. Fellblade is t9 also. A unit of erads does very little to a fellblade.
Warp talons will shred them though.
Yes, they can't fallback and shoot, unless they're Ultramarines, right Xeno? You're also still assuming that there's only one squad to deal with, eradicators are pretty cheap for what they do, no reason not to bring another squad.
And those warp talons will shred them, but that's 270 points of my best assault unit, that should be in your lines doing to your infantry what those eradicators are trying to do to my armour, to deal with 120 points of eradicators.
As I've said repeatedly, I have no problem with eradicators rules, they're just too cheap. Otherwise all this play and counter play you describe sounds quite fun and engaging, and I'm sure I'd enjoy it.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Did you guys really think Eliminators wouldn't be core when Terminators were revealed as core?
No, but I'm quite curious as to whether Reece is blowing smoke up our asses about Aggressor nerfs and since CORE isn't it then what and does that also apply to Eradicators.
Well considering the source... Seriously, maybe aggressors lose their double shoot? Don't know.
As far as eradicators, I never really factored rerolls into their effectiveness. When the codex drops loyalists will be limited to one captain per detachment, are they going to relegate that captain to units that need to get within 24 to be effective against their targets? Eradicators seem almost tailor made for the new tactical reserves rules, they want to get in deep into your lines. That's what I think makes them good, they're effective without character support. I'm more worried about the strategems that will still affect them if they get the CORE keyword, 9 T5 3+ wounds with Transhuman Physiology tacked on them will be an aggravation to get rid of. Maybe we'll get lucky and that won't make it into the new codex, but I doubt it. Gw likes messing with the wounding table too much.
Just charge them. Their threat range is in reasonable charge range for almost any unit if they coming in from the edge of the table. Charge them with a tank! Even better.
Yes, flattening them with the Fellblade they came to kill would be quite satisfying, but with Transhuman Physiology it ain't happening. Better to just feed them to the Warp Talons. And that's still assuming there's only one squad of the little buggers.
Just saying game mechanics wise - charging them with a tank is great. Transhuman not going to be too helpful there ether - because that unit is never shooting again anyways. Erads can't fall back and shoot and tanks can shoot into their own melee and can keep recharging them when they fallback. Fellblade is t9 also. A unit of erads does very little to a fellblade.
Warp talons will shred them though.
A Feelblade is also ridiculously overpriced.
Also, 10 Warp Talons (1 attack, +1 for first round of combat, +1 for dual Lightning Claws, and the Champ gets a singular extra one too) do...
31 attacks
63/3 hits
315/27 or 35/3 wounds
70/9 failed saves, for two dead and one wounded assuming no FNP
So, for more than twice the price of three Eradicators, you can almost kill a squad! Assuming, you know, you can charge them. It's definitely possible (I believe Warp Talons can get up to +4 to a charge out of Deep Strike) but is it worth it?
Well they would kill the eradicators in melee in their next turn. Also IDK if you are factoring in DTTFE.
Agreed - fellblade costs too much. It's maingun is fething garbo too.
That is my bad-I always forget DttFE.
That increases damage by 7/6ths, for a total of 490/54 or 245/27, just BARELY enough to kill the Eradicators (assuming no FNP).
Which is... Probably WORSE for the Warp Talons, actually. If they're Night Lords and an Eradicator survives, you can stop them from falling back, meaning you have to get charged to do anything. With all the Eradicators dead, there's no protection, meaning you're looking at (currently) 10 T4 3+ wounds to survive. (Soon to be 20.)
And there's still the issue that you dropped 270 points and probably some CP to kill one 120 point squad.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Did you guys really think Eliminators wouldn't be core when Terminators were revealed as core?
No, but I'm quite curious as to whether Reece is blowing smoke up our asses about Aggressor nerfs and since CORE isn't it then what and does that also apply to Eradicators.
Well considering the source... Seriously, maybe aggressors lose their double shoot? Don't know.
As far as eradicators, I never really factored rerolls into their effectiveness. When the codex drops loyalists will be limited to one captain per detachment, are they going to relegate that captain to units that need to get within 24 to be effective against their targets? Eradicators seem almost tailor made for the new tactical reserves rules, they want to get in deep into your lines. That's what I think makes them good, they're effective without character support. I'm more worried about the strategems that will still affect them if they get the CORE keyword, 9 T5 3+ wounds with Transhuman Physiology tacked on them will be an aggravation to get rid of. Maybe we'll get lucky and that won't make it into the new codex, but I doubt it. Gw likes messing with the wounding table too much.
Just charge them. Their threat range is in reasonable charge range for almost any unit if they coming in from the edge of the table. Charge them with a tank! Even better.
Yes, flattening them with the Fellblade they came to kill would be quite satisfying, but with Transhuman Physiology it ain't happening. Better to just feed them to the Warp Talons. And that's still assuming there's only one squad of the little buggers.
Just saying game mechanics wise - charging them with a tank is great. Transhuman not going to be too helpful there ether - because that unit is never shooting again anyways. Erads can't fall back and shoot and tanks can shoot into their own melee and can keep recharging them when they fallback. Fellblade is t9 also. A unit of erads does very little to a fellblade.
Warp talons will shred them though.
A Feelblade is also ridiculously overpriced.
Also, 10 Warp Talons (1 attack, +1 for first round of combat, +1 for dual Lightning Claws, and the Champ gets a singular extra one too) do...
31 attacks
63/3 hits
315/27 or 35/3 wounds
70/9 failed saves, for two dead and one wounded assuming no FNP
So, for more than twice the price of three Eradicators, you can almost kill a squad! Assuming, you know, you can charge them. It's definitely possible (I believe Warp Talons can get up to +4 to a charge out of Deep Strike) but is it worth it?
You forgot your DTTFE sir.
Also remember we're talking Night Lords (or at least I am), so 1CP gets you a 3D6 charge out of deepstrike, and another gets you +1 to hit those now L7 eradicators.
Otherwise fully agreed on all points, especially about Fellblades being massively overpriced.
@Daedalus: Lightning claws are still strength <user> according to the leaked build sheets we've seen.
Ultras can fall back and shoot at -1. Even as successors they can do it for 1 CP. Tactical prowess man...what can I say...
In all fairness any advantage gained by ultras fall back and shoot ability is lost in losing all the other great special rules you could have had. Like imperial fist super bolters...or Ironhands FNP. If guess their suicide erradicators aren't bad.
I fully expect erads to go up to 135/150 pints per unit.
Xenomancers wrote: Ultras can fall back and shoot at -1. Even as successors they can do it for 1 CP. Tactical prowess man...what can I say...
In all fairness any advantage gained by ultras fall back and shoot ability is lost in losing all the other great special rules you could have had. Like imperial fist super bolters...or Ironhands FNP. If guess their suicide erradicators aren't bad.
I fully expect erads to go up to 135/150 pints per unit.
If they don't a single is going to be weaker than a power sword in a lot of respects. Only a pair would be better, but then you're paying more points. Ugg.
If they don't a single is going to be weaker than a power sword in a lot of respects. Only a pair would be better, but then you're paying more points. Ugg.
2 wound warp talons will be nice though. Makes that 5++ a lot more valuable.
If they don't a single is going to be weaker than a power sword in a lot of respects. Only a pair would be better, but then you're paying more points. Ugg.
2 wound warp talons will be nice though. Makes that 5++ a lot more valuable.
Not really. That only applies against AP-3 (-4 in cover) weapons.
So stuff like Heavy Bolters, Battle Cannons, Autocannons... All don't care about the invuln.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: If that's really the analogy you need to use then there's a problem. Taking ANYTHING Reece says as even potentially true is just a bad idea.
I think he's enthusiastic, but people have honed in on a couple of his statements from very early in 8th and people like to burn him in effigy just like how Matt Ward eats babies.
It wasn't people honing in on a couple of his statements early in 8th. He was a play tester for 8th who came out and publicly said that 2 of the worst units in the entire ork army were amazing. I am actually unsure if a Stompa was ever in a winning army....ever in 8th. As far as Killa Kanz....well at the very very end of 8th they had a chance of being ok, sadly it lasted about 2 weeks and are now relegated to garbage tier again.
If you go out and say a Unit is awesome and going to do well and it turns out to be complete crap? well your reputation as an expert might suffer a bit.
Xenomancers wrote: Ultras can fall back and shoot at -1. Even as successors they can do it for 1 CP. Tactical prowess man...what can I say...
In all fairness any advantage gained by ultras fall back and shoot ability is lost in losing all the other great special rules you could have had. Like imperial fist super bolters...or Ironhands FNP. If guess their suicide erradicators aren't bad.
I fully expect erads to go up to 135/150 pints per unit.
For their stats and abilities I'd personally consider 150 points per squad to be the minimum fair price. Should probably be more like 160.
Agreed on 2W Warp Talons. With In Midnight Clad on them it will take an average of 120 bolt rifle shots in tactical doctrine to clear a ten man squad. Great for taking and holding objectives. Still damned expensive though.
SemperMortis wrote: It wasn't people honing in on a couple of his statements early in 8th. He was a play tester for 8th who came out and publicly said that 2 of the worst units in the entire ork army were amazing. I am actually unsure if a Stompa was ever in a winning army....ever in 8th. As far as Killa Kanz....well at the very very end of 8th they had a chance of being ok, sadly it lasted about 2 weeks and are now relegated to garbage tier again.
If you go out and say a Unit is awesome and going to do well and it turns out to be complete crap? well your reputation as an expert might suffer a bit.
Have you ever seen reviews for cards in something like MtG or Hearthstone? They probably get 20% of their big predictions wrong either by missing a key power card or by overhyping a card that never sees play. Whiffing on a single unit or two based off of limited playtest data and an unknown meta, where those units may have been doing well, isn't something to crucify anybody over.
Canadian 5th wrote: Have you ever seen reviews for cards in something like MtG or Hearthstone? They probably get 20% of their big predictions wrong either by missing a key power card or by overhyping a card that never sees play. Whiffing on a single unit or two based off of limited playtest data and an unknown meta, where those units may have been doing well, isn't something to crucify anybody over.
True - although to a degree I think that's for want of thinking about the game at an intellectual level rather than an instinctual one.
While the Stompa thing was stupid - I think Orks in general are odd because they play in a fundamentally different way to most other 40k factions. So a lot of experts looked at "X" and think "that would be solid in my Marine/Eldar/Tau/Necron etc list" - but your not slotting it into those lists, you are slotting them into Orks. And so it didn't work like they thought.
Which is also why a lot of the same experts went "orks will suck in 9th" - oh wait, they are not top tier, but certainly playable.
Agreed on 2W Warp Talons. With In Midnight Clad on them it will take an average of 120 bolt rifle shots in tactical doctrine to clear a ten man squad. Great for taking and holding objectives. Still damned expensive though.
I havnt ran my Warp talons since their massive pts increase. Are they worth it? Especially with overwatch not being always on anymore?
And i thought your Night Lords didn't use warp stuff
Canadian 5th wrote: Have you ever seen reviews for cards in something like MtG or Hearthstone? They probably get 20% of their big predictions wrong either by missing a key power card or by overhyping a card that never sees play. Whiffing on a single unit or two based off of limited playtest data and an unknown meta, where those units may have been doing well, isn't something to crucify anybody over.
True - although to a degree I think that's for want of thinking about the game at an intellectual level rather than an instinctual one.
While the Stompa thing was stupid - I think Orks in general are odd because they play in a fundamentally different way to most other 40k factions. So a lot of experts looked at "X" and think "that would be solid in my Marine/Eldar/Tau/Necron etc list" - but your not slotting it into those lists, you are slotting them into Orks. And so it didn't work like they thought.
Which is also why a lot of the same experts went "orks will suck in 9th" - oh wait, they are not top tier, but certainly playable.
OR.. wait for it.. Maybe when the Orks codex comes out the Stompa WILL be good now and maybe the playtesters were saying it was good when they will be in a 100% 9th edition game, with all the codex up to date.
Agreed on 2W Warp Talons. With In Midnight Clad on them it will take an average of 120 bolt rifle shots in tactical doctrine to clear a ten man squad. Great for taking and holding objectives. Still damned expensive though.
I havnt ran my Warp talons since their massive pts increase. Are they worth it? Especially with overwatch not being always on anymore?
And i thought your Night Lords didn't use warp stuff
I think they will be once they go to 2W, though they will still be a bit overpriced.
Warp Talons are basically Raptors that have gone further down the path of the "Raptor Cult", so that's my headcanon for why my company uses them, as disposable suicide troops, I might add. Remember, when Raptors were first introduced they couldn't take any mark except Undivided, because they belonged to the Raptor Cult and didn't worship any of the "Big Four". They had their own thing.
Agreed on 2W Warp Talons. With In Midnight Clad on them it will take an average of 120 bolt rifle shots in tactical doctrine to clear a ten man squad. Great for taking and holding objectives. Still damned expensive though.
I havnt ran my Warp talons since their massive pts increase. Are they worth it? Especially with overwatch not being always on anymore?
And i thought your Night Lords didn't use warp stuff
I think they will be once they go to 2W, though they will still be a bit overpriced.
Warp Talons are basically Raptors that have gone further down the path of the "Raptor Cult", so that's my headcanon for why my company uses them, as disposable suicide troops, I might add. Remember, when Raptors were first introduced they couldn't take any mark except Undivided, because they belonged to the Raptor Cult and didn't worship any of the "Big Four". They had their own thing.
Will you hate me if my company is blessed by Slaanesh for their obsessively meticulous flaying tendencies? They don't worship her but they won't say no to using demons (yeah, theyre naive) to achieve their goals.
VladimirHerzog wrote: OR.. wait for it.. Maybe when the Orks codex comes out the Stompa WILL be good now and maybe the playtesters were saying it was good when they will be in a 100% 9th edition game, with all the codex up to date.
Context on the Stompa quote is entirely within 8th edition - I think it was in the run-up to the 8th ed Ork 'dex, but I might be remembering the timeline wrong.
Definitely not related to 9th, though - just related to Reese being unreliable, at best.
Agreed on 2W Warp Talons. With In Midnight Clad on them it will take an average of 120 bolt rifle shots in tactical doctrine to clear a ten man squad. Great for taking and holding objectives. Still damned expensive though.
I havnt ran my Warp talons since their massive pts increase. Are they worth it? Especially with overwatch not being always on anymore?
And i thought your Night Lords didn't use warp stuff
I think they will be once they go to 2W, though they will still be a bit overpriced.
Warp Talons are basically Raptors that have gone further down the path of the "Raptor Cult", so that's my headcanon for why my company uses them, as disposable suicide troops, I might add. Remember, when Raptors were first introduced they couldn't take any mark except Undivided, because they belonged to the Raptor Cult and didn't worship any of the "Big Four". They had their own thing.
Will you hate me if my company is blessed by Slaanesh for their obsessively meticulous flaying tendencies? They don't worship her but they won't say no to using demons (yeah, theyre naive) to achieve their goals.
Hey, your dudes, your preferences. Lots of Night Lords warbands out there, some will have fallen to chaos, including the largest led by Acerbus Krieg. 3.5 allowed for possessed, daemon princes, and furies, but I never used any of those. That's just me. If I was going to make a Night Lords warband influenced by Chaos I'd go Slaanesh, I like the idea of Night Lords noise marines that would look like a Black Metal band. They even already wear corpse paint.
Agreed on 2W Warp Talons. With In Midnight Clad on them it will take an average of 120 bolt rifle shots in tactical doctrine to clear a ten man squad. Great for taking and holding objectives. Still damned expensive though.
I havnt ran my Warp talons since their massive pts increase. Are they worth it? Especially with overwatch not being always on anymore?
And i thought your Night Lords didn't use warp stuff
I think they will be once they go to 2W, though they will still be a bit overpriced.
Warp Talons are basically Raptors that have gone further down the path of the "Raptor Cult", so that's my headcanon for why my company uses them, as disposable suicide troops, I might add. Remember, when Raptors were first introduced they couldn't take any mark except Undivided, because they belonged to the Raptor Cult and didn't worship any of the "Big Four". They had their own thing.
I would also expect them to get buffed to 2 base attacks.
VladimirHerzog wrote: OR.. wait for it.. Maybe when the Orks codex comes out the Stompa WILL be good now and maybe the playtesters were saying it was good when they will be in a 100% 9th edition game, with all the codex up to date.
Context on the Stompa quote is entirely within 8th edition - I think it was in the run-up to the 8th ed Ork 'dex, but I might be remembering the timeline wrong.
Definitely not related to 9th, though - just related to Reese being unreliable, at best.
Ahh, but maybe the points were adjusted in anticipation of 9th edition changes, like all the horrendously overpriced Eldar units. (This is legitimately what a lot of people on dakka seem to believe).
So really, Orks got the first 9th edition codex. They were just given it really, really early. They should feel lucky, really.
SemperMortis wrote: It wasn't people honing in on a couple of his statements early in 8th. He was a play tester for 8th who came out and publicly said that 2 of the worst units in the entire ork army were amazing. I am actually unsure if a Stompa was ever in a winning army....ever in 8th. As far as Killa Kanz....well at the very very end of 8th they had a chance of being ok, sadly it lasted about 2 weeks and are now relegated to garbage tier again.
If you go out and say a Unit is awesome and going to do well and it turns out to be complete crap? well your reputation as an expert might suffer a bit.
Have you ever seen reviews for cards in something like MtG or Hearthstone? They probably get 20% of their big predictions wrong either by missing a key power card or by overhyping a card that never sees play. Whiffing on a single unit or two based off of limited playtest data and an unknown meta, where those units may have been doing well, isn't something to crucify anybody over.
Magic the gathering also has 20,000+ cards and they add a couple hundred every major release, so trying to balance a card based on millions of permutations is a bit harder than deciding if a unit in a codex with what? 30 entries? is good. Especially since the comparisons were already visible to other units in the game. It doesn't take a "rokkit" scientist or a Big Mek to figure out that a 1k point model that likely won't finish off a Predator tank in 1 turn isn't going to do well. Especially in a new game where Girlyman is running around giving everyone reroll hits and wounds.
VladimirHerzog wrote: OR.. wait for it.. Maybe when the Orks codex comes out the Stompa WILL be good now and maybe the playtesters were saying it was good when they will be in a 100% 9th edition game, with all the codex up to date.
Context on the Stompa quote is entirely within 8th edition - I think it was in the run-up to the 8th ed Ork 'dex, but I might be remembering the timeline wrong.
Definitely not related to 9th, though - just related to Reese being unreliable, at best.
Ahh, but maybe the points were adjusted in anticipation of 9th edition changes, like all the horrendously overpriced Eldar units. (This is legitimately what a lot of people on dakka seem to believe).
So really, Orks got the first 9th edition codex. They were just given it really, really early. They should feel lucky, really.
3 years early? I generally think of GW as lazy, not over doing it by 3 years
SemperMortis wrote: Magic the gathering also has 20,000+ cards and they add a couple hundred every major release, so trying to balance a card based on millions of permutations is a bit harder than deciding if a unit in a codex with what? 30 entries? is good. Especially since the comparisons were already visible to other units in the game. It doesn't take a "rokkit" scientist or a Big Mek to figure out that a 1k point model that likely won't finish off a Predator tank in 1 turn isn't going to do well. Especially in a new game where Girlyman is running around giving everyone reroll hits and wounds.
Good thing I wasn't talking about eternal formats, but instead referring to Standard, Draft, and Sealed formats with card pools closer to 1,500 to 2,000 cards. Of those, there are large chunks that can be safely ignored; vanilla creatures, common lands to mana fix, high casting cost fatties with no effects, worse versions of something already in the format, etc.
Yes, it is harder to make that call than it is in 40k but that doesn't mean making a call about a 40k unit, especially one you've been making work in your meta, is foolproof and that any bad read is malicious; which is the point I was trying to make.
SemperMortis wrote: Magic the gathering also has 20,000+ cards and they add a couple hundred every major release, so trying to balance a card based on millions of permutations is a bit harder than deciding if a unit in a codex with what? 30 entries? is good. Especially since the comparisons were already visible to other units in the game. It doesn't take a "rokkit" scientist or a Big Mek to figure out that a 1k point model that likely won't finish off a Predator tank in 1 turn isn't going to do well. Especially in a new game where Girlyman is running around giving everyone reroll hits and wounds.
Good thing I wasn't talking about eternal formats, but instead referring to Standard, Draft, and Sealed formats with card pools closer to 1,500 to 2,000 cards. Of those, there are large chunks that can be safely ignored; vanilla creatures, common lands to mana fix, high casting cost fatties with no effects, worse versions of something already in the format, etc.
Yes, it is harder to make that call than it is in 40k but that doesn't mean making a call about a 40k unit, especially one you've been making work in your meta, is foolproof and that any bad read is malicious; which is the point I was trying to make.
whichever format you use it still doesn't change the point that the Stompa was universally hailed as garbage. I still to this day don't understand how he thought it was worth anything at all. It was incapable of killing vehicles except in CC and it was useless with its transport capability because the only thing people used that for was to load it with Mek boyz and a Big Mek KFF in order to heal it after it got plastered every turn, which GW changed the rules so you couldn't do that anymore either.
SemperMortis wrote: Magic the gathering also has 20,000+ cards and they add a couple hundred every major release, so trying to balance a card based on millions of permutations is a bit harder than deciding if a unit in a codex with what? 30 entries? is good. Especially since the comparisons were already visible to other units in the game. It doesn't take a "rokkit" scientist or a Big Mek to figure out that a 1k point model that likely won't finish off a Predator tank in 1 turn isn't going to do well. Especially in a new game where Girlyman is running around giving everyone reroll hits and wounds.
Good thing I wasn't talking about eternal formats, but instead referring to Standard, Draft, and Sealed formats with card pools closer to 1,500 to 2,000 cards. Of those, there are large chunks that can be safely ignored; vanilla creatures, common lands to mana fix, high casting cost fatties with no effects, worse versions of something already in the format, etc.
Yes, it is harder to make that call than it is in 40k but that doesn't mean making a call about a 40k unit, especially one you've been making work in your meta, is foolproof and that any bad read is malicious; which is the point I was trying to make.
whichever format you use it still doesn't change the point that the Stompa was universally hailed as garbage. I still to this day don't understand how he thought it was worth anything at all. It was incapable of killing vehicles except in CC and it was useless with its transport capability because the only thing people used that for was to load it with Mek boyz and a Big Mek KFF in order to heal it after it got plastered every turn, which GW changed the rules so you couldn't do that anymore either.
To be fair I do get the impression that some of what was play tested and what GW printed 6 months later didn't quite have a 1:1 relationship and in some cases it was more of a 1:1.5 or so but the general concepts of good and bad read across, while in other cases GW did a GW and went on their own 3000 yard run for a touchdown behind their own goal. With things being nothing close to what was play tested.
Also once again in 9th there has been evidence that what was play tested and the wording in the BRB not actually the same.
While some of it is probably to improve the RAW vrs RAI alignment it does question the results from the testing, combine that with the WTAF reaction to CA 2020 and I think the issues is what GW shows the play testers isn't the same as the rules they put in the codex's.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Did you guys really think Eliminators wouldn't be core when Terminators were revealed as core?
No, but I'm quite curious as to whether Reece is blowing smoke up our asses about Aggressor nerfs and since CORE isn't it then what and does that also apply to Eradicators.
You mean Reece, who said "Ork Stompas will be the best" and "Grey Knights are perfect even if they get a Smite nerf", might have been LYING?
Even a broken clock yadda yadda.
Broken clocks are only right at points of the day when the hands aren't moving. If they are still capable of mechanical motion then it is possible to have a broken clock which never tells the correct time.
OR.. wait for it.. Maybe when the Orks codex comes out the Stompa WILL be good now and maybe the playtesters were saying it was good when they will be in a 100% 9th edition game, with all the codex up to date.
Dudeface wrote: Place bets, if Eradicators aren't core, no rerolls any more.
You mean no more Shoot Twice? We already know if they aren't CORE rerolls will be few and far between if not entirely absent.
I think it's more likely they are CORE than not CORE though. If Terminators are CORE - and that was one of the example units that would be - then I can't see how Aggressors and Eradicators wouldn't be. If they're the Primaris analog to Terminators they'd need to be CORE, if they're just regular Devs and such in upgraded Armor, they'd still be Core?
Hellblasters are intercessors with plasma guns. I'd say they are more core than eradicators. My guess is that core is going to be for themes. All terminators, bikes, dreads, etc with a couple offshoot units. Eradicators imo are too specialized to be core
Eonfuzz wrote: for better or worse, anything "marine" will be CORE ( aka not vehicles ), and I'd expect the same thing will apply to all other armies.
Anything "Ork" ie, not gretchin or tanks
Anything "Necrontyr" ie, not croissants or spyders
etc
Grots could and probably should go CORE after the price hike.
The tough one is probably going to be Nids. There is no straight line they can draw to include these big bugs, and not those big bugs. Maybe they draw a line on the wound level - similar to Dreads that can ride on the back of a Storm Raven - but I'm not sure that gets them the line they want.
Actually.. For nids it could just be everything that doesn't generate synapse. Nice and easy
Tyranid Warriors are Troops and Infantry while generating Synapse. Not making them CORE would be wild. See what I mean? Nids are going to be "fun" for assigning CORE.
It's a keyword, though. It doesn't have to be assigned by any sort of category in any way at all.
If Warriors ought to be Core (and yes, I'd say so), they just... get the keyword.
Grots could and probably should go CORE after the price hike.
I'll be surprised if Grots get Core. GW seems pretty set on the idea that nothing should encourage grot heavy armies, and Core means they'll benefit from various abilities. Anything more than a unit or two of screening/suicide troops seems to be something that GW considers right out.
Voss wrote: It's a keyword, though. It doesn't have to be assigned by any sort of category in any way at all.
If Warriors ought to be Core (and yes, I'd say so), they just... get the keyword.
But it's going to have to make sense. There has to be some logical consistency so players won't feel its arbitrary and rigged for or against specific armies. Any more than they already will. Nids not having "vehicles" as their deviation from basic template will make it a little tricky - Like Necron Transports deviating through Deep Strike Mechanics than having the models ride in the transport.
Grots could and probably should go CORE after the price hike.
I'll be surprised if Grots get Core. GW seems pretty set on the idea that nothing should encourage grot heavy armies, and Core means they'll benefit from various abilities. Anything more than a unit or two of screening/suicide troops seems to be something that GW considers right out.
I'll be surprised too, but they should do it with the price hike they got. Plus Using CORE vs CORE <CLAN> would be a good way to split strats to affect Grots or not. Assuming Grots don't get <CLAN> for the price hike as well.
SemperMortis 791574 10933725 wrote:
If you go out and say a Unit is awesome and going to do well and it turns out to be complete crap? well your reputation as an expert might suffer a bit.
Wasn't the only thing he said that was weird. Claimed that GK were too powerful, then that GK players don't know how to play, and then proposed to use units every compatitive GK player was already using as the golden way to play GK in 8th. Didn't make himself trusted with statements like that either. I have a feeling he probably said stuff like that about more armies too.
What do Nids care about core? No worthwhile aura's except Synapse and that's obviously gonna stay army wide... Maybe Maleceptor strat? Most people aren't really playing that anyway though I will say it's pretty good. Can't think of much else that even matters. Malanthropes are gak now, and the only thing Venoms are taken for is buffing troops, so I can't see core really mattering.
Nitro Zeus wrote: What do Nids care about core? No worthwhile aura's except Synapse and that's obviously gonna stay army wide... Maybe Maleceptor strat? Most people aren't really playing that anyway though I will say it's pretty good. Can't think of much else that even matters. Malanthropes are gak now, and the only thing Venoms are taken for is buffing troops, so I can't see core really mattering.
honestly some armies may well not have the core distinction because it doesn't really fit with them.
Nitro Zeus wrote: What do Nids care about core? No worthwhile aura's except Synapse and that's obviously gonna stay army wide... Maybe Maleceptor strat? Most people aren't really playing that anyway though I will say it's pretty good. Can't think of much else that even matters. Malanthropes are gak now, and the only thing Venoms are taken for is buffing troops, so I can't see core really mattering.
Possibly for psychic powers and strats. Some of the SM psychic powers in the new Codex will have limitations based around the Core keyword according to what some people have been able to decipher from the blurry preview images. I wouldn't be surprised to see some strats only work with Core units in an attempt to rein in potential abuses.
Going back a bit, but the rumoured Aggressor nerfs are probably the removal of double shoot. That ability on that unit makes it a nightmare to design and balance around and it is the #1 culprit for long games. Forget 120 Ork Boyz, 6 Aggressors with full re-rolls is what grinds the game to a halt. And since GW wants to speed games up in 9th, I'd put good money on double shoot Aggressors seeing the chopping block.
And it's not like the unit lacks any special rules. It's already capable of advancing and firing without penalty so from a design standpoint giving it an ability that rewards it for not moving is completely ass-backwards. And that's not even taking into account the myriad of ways you can bypass it anyway.
Dudeface wrote: Place bets, if Eradicators aren't core, no rerolls any more.
You mean no more Shoot Twice? We already know if they aren't CORE rerolls will be few and far between if not entirely absent.
I think it's more likely they are CORE than not CORE though. If Terminators are CORE - and that was one of the example units that would be - then I can't see how Aggressors and Eradicators wouldn't be. If they're the Primaris analog to Terminators they'd need to be CORE, if they're just regular Devs and such in upgraded Armor, they'd still be Core?
Hellblasters are intercessors with plasma guns. I'd say they are more core than eradicators. My guess is that core is going to be for themes. All terminators, bikes, dreads, etc with a couple offshoot units. Eradicators imo are too specialized to be core
Hate to break it to you but the White Dwarf battle report mentions Eradicators are core, so your theory is already debunked.
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Bosskelot wrote: Going back a bit, but the rumoured Aggressor nerfs are probably the removal of double shoot. That ability on that unit makes it a nightmare to design and balance around and it is the #1 culprit for long games. Forget 120 Ork Boyz, 6 Aggressors with full re-rolls is what grinds the game to a halt. And since GW wants to speed games up in 9th, I'd put good money on double shoot Aggressors seeing the chopping block.
And it's not like the unit lacks any special rules. It's already capable of advancing and firing without penalty so from a design standpoint giving it an ability that rewards it for not moving is completely ass-backwards. And that's not even taking into account the myriad of ways you can bypass it anyway.
If they decided double shots were a mistake they wouldn't have given them to Eradicators.
Yeah designwise it's not so much of an issue on Erad's because you're talking 6 shots.
The sheer number of dice on Aggressors slows games down to an unacceptable degree but also dilutes the identity of the unit and steps on the toes of others as with that many shots they're easily capable of bringing down a Knight in one round of shooting (Chapter reliant).
Eradicators having double shoot is fine in theory but the way the rule has been written just removes all tactical thought and choice from the equation. If it was re-worded and worked differently the unit wouldn't be so problematic.
Plus as I said in my original post, there's an inherent contradiction in Aggressors rules. They get a rule that encourages them to advance and be mobile, but also another rule that incentivises standing still.
Bosskelot wrote: Yeah designwise it's not so much of an issue on Erad's because you're talking 6 shots.
The sheer number of dice on Aggressors slows games down to an unacceptable degree but also dilutes the identity of the unit and steps on the toes of others as with that many shots they're easily capable of bringing down a Knight in one round of shooting (Chapter reliant).
Eradicators having double shoot is fine in theory but the way the rule has been written just removes all tactical thought and choice from the equation. If it was re-worded and worked differently the unit wouldn't be so problematic.
Plus as I said in my original post, there's an inherent contradiction in Aggressors rules. They get a rule that encourages them to advance and be mobile, but also another rule that incentivises standing still.
dude exp[ecting agressors to have shoots twice removed is setting yourself up for dissappointment. why are we assuming the rumor about agressors being "massivly debuffed" is true anyway? I thought I heard the source on that was Reece?
thing is it's likely the source is simply "my copy of the play test had aggressors pointed really high" thing is points costs are pretty easy to change and I'd not trust a Playtester on that given that the 9th edition rules apparently had 9 seperate drafts (source this months white dwarf)
Bosskelot wrote: Yeah designwise it's not so much of an issue on Erad's because you're talking 6 shots.
The sheer number of dice on Aggressors slows games down to an unacceptable degree but also dilutes the identity of the unit and steps on the toes of others as with that many shots they're easily capable of bringing down a Knight in one round of shooting (Chapter reliant).
Eradicators having double shoot is fine in theory but the way the rule has been written just removes all tactical thought and choice from the equation. If it was re-worded and worked differently the unit wouldn't be so problematic.
Plus as I said in my original post, there's an inherent contradiction in Aggressors rules. They get a rule that encourages them to advance and be mobile, but also another rule that incentivises standing still.
dude exp[ecting agressors to have shoots twice removed is setting yourself up for dissappointment. why are we assuming the rumor about agressors being "massivly debuffed" is true anyway? I thought I heard the source on that was Reece?
thing is it's likely the source is simply "my copy of the play test had aggressors pointed really high" thing is points costs are pretty easy to change and I'd not trust a Playtester on that given that the 9th edition rules apparently had 9 seperate drafts (source this months white dwarf)
Because we've heard it from two separate playtester sources at this point and they wouldn't base their statements on non-final points values as, y'know, they're non-final. Behaviour and statements from all the playtesters about the place of units comes from new rules and new rules only which are practically confirmed and immutable. That's why the MFM was such a shock to all of them. For comparison all of the revealed and leaked stuff has been information the playtesters have been sitting on for months now and has changed very little, if at all. There has been zero instances of some playtester going "Oh wow, this is completely different to what we playtested!" to any of the new rules stuff we've seen.
Plus as I mentioned previously, GW wants to speed 9th up and from the information we can glean from the leaks and info, they're actually very aware of design issues arising from the Marine Codex and its Supplements. That's why you have Core keyword, 2W Marines, Aura changes, Character upgrade changes etc*. What is one of the most glaring problems in the Codex? Aggressors double firing, for all of the reasons I've given previously.
I'm not saying it's absolutely going to happen, but with 9th and the new Codex being an opportunity to fix issues with the army and game I would be unsurprised to see Aggressors unchanged in any significant way. Splitting their boltstorms into two separate weapons doesn't do it and they'll likely have the Core keyword too. Increasing their points doesn't solve the design and gameplay conundrum they present either. Points rebalancing is a stopgap, band-aid measure, but this is an entirely new edition with new rules and new statlines.
*And guess which of those new things have been known to the playtesters for months now and which they aren't surprised about? All of them. They've known all of them and playtested them.
I'd not have my heart set on it. if it happens so be it (they're still a solid unit without it so I'd not be too crushed so long as they don't jack the points up at the same time) but you're setting yourself up for dissappointment
Because we've heard it from two separate playtester sources at this point and they wouldn't base their statements on non-final points values as, y'know, they're non-final. Behaviour and statements from all the playtesters about the place of units comes from new rules and new rules only which are practically confirmed and immutable. That's why the MFM was such a shock to all of them. For comparison all of the revealed and leaked stuff has been information the playtesters have been sitting on for months now and has changed very little, if at all. There has been zero instances of some playtester going "Oh wow, this is completely different to what we playtested!" to any of the new rules stuff we've seen.
Plus as I mentioned previously, GW wants to speed 9th up and from the information we can glean from the leaks and info, they're actually very aware of design issues arising from the Marine Codex and its Supplements. That's why you have Core keyword, 2W Marines, Aura changes, Character upgrade changes etc*. What is one of the most glaring problems in the Codex? Aggressors double firing, for all of the reasons I've given previously.
I'm not saying it's absolutely going to happen, but with 9th and the new Codex being an opportunity to fix issues with the army and game I would be unsurprised to see Aggressors unchanged in any significant way. Splitting their boltstorms into two separate weapons doesn't do it and they'll likely have the Core keyword too. Increasing their points doesn't solve the design and gameplay conundrum they present either. Points rebalancing is a stopgap, band-aid measure, but this is an entirely new edition with new rules and new statlines.
*And guess which of those new things have been known to the playtesters for months now and which they aren't surprised about? All of them. They've known all of them and playtested them.
Are they getting rid of DDD too? It doesn't take any longer to sift through some dice for 1's than it does to sift through them for 6's? Hail of Living Ammunition? Hungering Swarm? There are a lot of Reroll 1's/Extra Bonus Roll with 6's out there, on some potentially large units rolling a lot of dice that then get to reroll/add roll 16% of them for it to only be Aggressors that are the problem.
No other army or unit in the game can get 144 dice rolls and re-roll all of them. Even 30 Ork Boyz are incapable of that, especially as you'll never have all 30 in range to attack. Your examples are also laughable in comparison to Aggressors with 90 Termagaunt shots only capable of re-rolling wound rolls of 1 in comparison to 144 re-rolling every hit AND re-rolling wound rolls of 1. Even outside of the re-rolls they'll get more hits, which then leads directly into more wound rolls needing to be made.
There's absolutely no real comparison there. Even assuming non-max shots you're still looking at 110+ re-rollable dice which will still lead to like 80-90 wound rolls. And like the Ork Boyz, the unit size of the Gaunts makes it difficult to get everything in range, so even in optimal conditions you're looking at 90 hit rolls and 45 wound rolls, of which 7-8 can be re-rolled.
This is also assuming that those units wouldn't also be changed somehow, but even then, 30 devourer termagaunts is not as much of an issue as Aggressors. Mathhammer and actual game experience holds up.
Bosskelot wrote: No other army or unit in the game can get 144 dice rolls and re-roll all of them. Even 30 Ork Boyz are incapable of that, especially as you'll never have all 30 in range to attack. Your examples are also laughable in comparison to Aggressors with 90 Termagaunt shots only capable of re-rolling wound rolls of 1 in comparison to 144 re-rolling every hit AND re-rolling wound rolls of 1. Even outside of the re-rolls they'll get more hits, which then leads directly into more wound rolls needing to be made.
There's absolutely no real comparison there. Even assuming non-max shots you're still looking at 110+ re-rollable dice which will still lead to like 80-90 wound rolls. And like the Ork Boyz, the unit size of the Gaunts makes it difficult to get everything in range, so even in optimal conditions you're looking at 90 hit rolls and 45 wound rolls, of which 7-8 can be re-rolled.
This is also assuming that those units wouldn't also be changed somehow, but even then, 30 devourer termagaunts is not as much of an issue as Aggressors. Mathhammer and actual game experience holds up.
So is your problem with rerolls, or with Aggressors/Marines? Because one unit of Guants etc might not have the same number of rerolls, but there will be more units of them won't there? Nor do we reroll the successful hits, so you're only rerolling 1/6th to 1/3 of those 110 dice. And Only when a Captain/ChapterMaster is in range which means we're not just talking about one unit with the Aggressors either.. I'm guessing your 110+ rerollable means 6 Aggressors with Boltstorm and Frag Launcher and that's about 270 points? That's 74 Rapid Fire Pulse Rifles with a Rerolling 1's Marker Light. Plus the points spent on the HQ's to let the Aggressors reroll. 130ish for the captain gets you another 37ish pulse rifle shots = 111 that reroll 1's?
Bosskelot wrote: No other army or unit in the game can get 144 dice rolls and re-roll all of them. Even 30 Ork Boyz are incapable of that, especially as you'll never have all 30 in range to attack. Your examples are also laughable in comparison to Aggressors with 90 Termagaunt shots only capable of re-rolling wound rolls of 1 in comparison to 144 re-rolling every hit AND re-rolling wound rolls of 1. Even outside of the re-rolls they'll get more hits, which then leads directly into more wound rolls needing to be made.
There's absolutely no real comparison there. Even assuming non-max shots you're still looking at 110+ re-rollable dice which will still lead to like 80-90 wound rolls. And like the Ork Boyz, the unit size of the Gaunts makes it difficult to get everything in range, so even in optimal conditions you're looking at 90 hit rolls and 45 wound rolls, of which 7-8 can be re-rolled.
This is also assuming that those units wouldn't also be changed somehow, but even then, 30 devourer termagaunts is not as much of an issue as Aggressors. Mathhammer and actual game experience holds up.
So is your problem with rerolls, or with Aggressors/Marines? Because one unit of Guants etc might not have the same number of rerolls, but there will be more units of them won't there? Nor do we reroll the successful hits, so you're only rerolling 1/6th to 1/3 of those 110 dice. And Only when a Captain/ChapterMaster is in range which means we're not just talking about one unit with the Aggressors either.. I'm guessing your 110+ rerollable means 6 Aggressors with Boltstorm and Frag Launcher and that's about 270 points? That's 74 Rapid Fire Pulse Rifles with a Rerolling 1's Marker Light. Plus the points spent on the HQ's to let the Aggressors reroll. 130ish for the captain gets you another 37ish pulse rifle shots = 111 that reroll 1's?
I wont speak for them but to me, the rerolls are the worst part of aggressors. You get them in all 3 phases (shooting, overwatch, melee). Lets say im running wyches to try and tie them down because god knows i wont get to kill them. thats 3 tedious reroll sessions that i have to wait through.
Chapter master rerolls are a problem when units have that many shots, and not just for balancing purposes. I can't believe it when marine players complain about hordes' movement phase take too long.
I wont speak for them but to me, the rerolls are the worst part of aggressors. You get them in all 3 phases (shooting, overwatch, melee). Lets say im running wyches to try and tie them down because god knows i wont get to kill them. thats 3 tedious reroll sessions that i have to wait through.
Chapter master rerolls are a problem when units have that many shots, and not just for balancing purposes. I can't believe it when marine players complain about hordes' movement phase take too long.
Would you prefer to see all the Marine attacks go up a notch? Assault 6 goes to Assault 7 or 8 to make up for the lost rerolls? Rapid Fire 1 to Rapid Fire 2, and so on?
I wont speak for them but to me, the rerolls are the worst part of aggressors. You get them in all 3 phases (shooting, overwatch, melee). Lets say im running wyches to try and tie them down because god knows i wont get to kill them. thats 3 tedious reroll sessions that i have to wait through.
Chapter master rerolls are a problem when units have that many shots, and not just for balancing purposes. I can't believe it when marine players complain about hordes' movement phase take too long.
Would you prefer to see all the Marine attacks go up a notch? Assault 6 goes to Assault 7 or 8 to make up for the lost rerolls? Rapid Fire 1 to Rapid Fire 2, and so on?
No, i'd like them to not have as many rerolls. Theyre already good even without them because of their higher rate of fire, strength and AP.
Voss wrote: It's a keyword, though. It doesn't have to be assigned by any sort of category in any way at all.
If Warriors ought to be Core (and yes, I'd say so), they just... get the keyword.
But it's going to have to make sense. There has to be some logical consistency so players won't feel its arbitrary and rigged for or against specific armies.
There is a logical consistency- Warriors are common tyranid organisms that are typically seen in the battleline of tyranid armies, they're central to how the swarm deploys and behaves.
That's what Core is for- warriors are going to be one of the least controversial units when it comes to Core designation.
The stuff people will argue about is Zoanthropes, Hive Guard, Biovores and etc. The specialists that are common enough and useful enough (especially the first two), but not necessarily a vital strategic part of tyranid armies in general.
And some of it is sadly going to depend on how Core is implemented in the first two books, especially marines. If GW is... 'overly generous' with the designation, folks will expect that to continue.
Are they getting rid of DDD too? It doesn't take any longer to sift through some dice for 1's than it does to sift through them for 6's? Hail of Living Ammunition? Hungering Swarm? There are a lot of Reroll 1's/Extra Bonus Roll with 6's out there, on some potentially large units rolling a lot of dice that then get to reroll/add roll 16% of them for it to only be Aggressors that are the problem.
I would 100% be on board with getting rid of DDD if you just made Orkz bog standard 4+ to hit and grotz 3+ we actually might get some damn hits for a change. And it would make upgrading weapons to a Rokkit at 10pts per a bit more reasonable.
SemperMortis 791574 10933725 wrote: If you go out and say a Unit is awesome and going to do well and it turns out to be complete crap? well your reputation as an expert might suffer a bit.
Wasn't the only thing he said that was weird. Claimed that GK were too powerful, then that GK players don't know how to play, and then proposed to use units every compatitive GK player was already using as the golden way to play GK in 8th. Didn't make himself trusted with statements like that either. I have a feeling he probably said stuff like that about more armies too.
Correct, he also was wrong about GK, Tau, Eldar etc etc. He tends to be more wrong than right. Later into 8th he also said Grotz are the most amazing unit in the Ork codex, winning matches almost by themselves. In reality, they were taken as meat shields for units that could actually accomplish things. Let me quote him
"However, if you build your list and plan your tactics around them, you will find that they are the most points efficient and the most versatile unit that the Orks have."
So it wasn't just him saying the Stompa and Killa Kanz would be amazing, it was also basically anything else he ever said about the ork faction and even other factions as well.
Bosskelot wrote: No other army or unit in the game can get 144 dice rolls and re-roll all of them. Even 30 Ork Boyz are incapable of that, especially as you'll never have all 30 in range to attack. Your examples are also laughable in comparison to Aggressors with 90 Termagaunt shots only capable of re-rolling wound rolls of 1 in comparison to 144 re-rolling every hit AND re-rolling wound rolls of 1. Even outside of the re-rolls they'll get more hits, which then leads directly into more wound rolls needing to be made.
There's absolutely no real comparison there. Even assuming non-max shots you're still looking at 110+ re-rollable dice which will still lead to like 80-90 wound rolls. And like the Ork Boyz, the unit size of the Gaunts makes it difficult to get everything in range, so even in optimal conditions you're looking at 90 hit rolls and 45 wound rolls, of which 7-8 can be re-rolled.
This is also assuming that those units wouldn't also be changed somehow, but even then, 30 devourer termagaunts is not as much of an issue as Aggressors. Mathhammer and actual game experience holds up.
So is your problem with rerolls, or with Aggressors/Marines? Because one unit of Guants etc might not have the same number of rerolls, but there will be more units of them won't there? Nor do we reroll the successful hits, so you're only rerolling 1/6th to 1/3 of those 110 dice. And Only when a Captain/ChapterMaster is in range which means we're not just talking about one unit with the Aggressors either.. I'm guessing your 110+ rerollable means 6 Aggressors with Boltstorm and Frag Launcher and that's about 270 points? That's 74 Rapid Fire Pulse Rifles with a Rerolling 1's Marker Light. Plus the points spent on the HQ's to let the Aggressors reroll. 130ish for the captain gets you another 37ish pulse rifle shots = 111 that reroll 1's?
And how often are all of those Gaunts going to be in firing range? How many of them will hit which then translates to wound rolls being made? It's still substantially lower and quicker than Aggressors, even without re-rolls. And again you keep bringing up examples that don't help your point, with units that get substantially fewer shots and make significantly less dice rolls. Is bringing up 30-ish Fire Warriors with a Markerlight really meant to help your point? I'm honestly confused.
Even discounting re-rolls Aggressors slow the game down to a crawl. But they do have easy access to re-rolls. And on-hit effects that can allow for extra dice to be rolled. And they're cheap enough to easily fit 2 units of them into a 2k list.
The double shoot mechanic on a unit like that is not defensible in any way shape or form.
And from your other posts you seem to think Aggressors would need their weaponry buffed to compensate if they lost double shooting or access to re-rolls which is the most ??? thing ever. If it turns out they're too pricy without that ability then shock horror, they can get their points reduced. But even then, 72 shots from a 6 man unit with plentiful re-rolls at good BS, decent strength, characters and stratagem buffs and the tactical doctrine is still perfectly fething fine and usable.
Bosskelot wrote: No other army or unit in the game can get 144 dice rolls and re-roll all of them. Even 30 Ork Boyz are incapable of that, especially as you'll never have all 30 in range to attack. Your examples are also laughable in comparison to Aggressors with 90 Termagaunt shots only capable of re-rolling wound rolls of 1 in comparison to 144 re-rolling every hit AND re-rolling wound rolls of 1. Even outside of the re-rolls they'll get more hits, which then leads directly into more wound rolls needing to be made.
There's absolutely no real comparison there. Even assuming non-max shots you're still looking at 110+ re-rollable dice which will still lead to like 80-90 wound rolls. And like the Ork Boyz, the unit size of the Gaunts makes it difficult to get everything in range, so even in optimal conditions you're looking at 90 hit rolls and 45 wound rolls, of which 7-8 can be re-rolled.
This is also assuming that those units wouldn't also be changed somehow, but even then, 30 devourer termagaunts is not as much of an issue as Aggressors. Mathhammer and actual game experience holds up.
So is your problem with rerolls, or with Aggressors/Marines? Because one unit of Guants etc might not have the same number of rerolls, but there will be more units of them won't there? Nor do we reroll the successful hits, so you're only rerolling 1/6th to 1/3 of those 110 dice. And Only when a Captain/ChapterMaster is in range which means we're not just talking about one unit with the Aggressors either.. I'm guessing your 110+ rerollable means 6 Aggressors with Boltstorm and Frag Launcher and that's about 270 points? That's 74 Rapid Fire Pulse Rifles with a Rerolling 1's Marker Light. Plus the points spent on the HQ's to let the Aggressors reroll. 130ish for the captain gets you another 37ish pulse rifle shots = 111 that reroll 1's?
The problem is more with things that actually happen in a game. The examples of Gaunts, or Ork Boyz can happen and sometimes they will, but with Aggressors they happen in pretty much every game where that unit appears so at the moment the problem is the perfect storm of Aggressors and SM buffs but that's not to say the core mechanics that allow re-rolls to be so prevalent aren't the real problem. All your comments about extra points for character support etc are pretty meaningless when the core argument is "rerolling that number of dice is time-consuming and stupid". I don't really care too much how many points my opponent has spent to get all those re-rolls when the answer is "not enough to significantly reduce the amount of firepower elsewhere in their list". I've charged Aggressors in 8th with full re-rolls to hit and re-roll 1s to wound and my God was it a stupid experience. It took my opponent longer to roll the Overwatch dice than it did for me to resolve the resulting close combat with a unit of Death Company.
74 Pulse Rifles wouldn't be as much of a problem since they only re-roll 1s and don't get wound re-rolls (as far as I recall anyway). They're also not seen very often so in practical terms they're not a problem I care about.
Would you prefer to see all the Marine attacks go up a notch? Assault 6 goes to Assault 7 or 8 to make up for the lost rerolls? Rapid Fire 1 to Rapid Fire 2, and so on?
No, i'd like them to not have as many rerolls. Theyre already good even without them because of their higher rate of fire, strength and AP.
So you want them to get worse. Again, is your problem rerolls or Marines? We get rid of the rerolls, and just give them extra shots to make up for the lost value, and you don’t like that either, so it feels like rerolls is the excuse to nerf Marines.
Would you prefer to see all the Marine attacks go up a notch? Assault 6 goes to Assault 7 or 8 to make up for the lost rerolls? Rapid Fire 1 to Rapid Fire 2, and so on?
No, i'd like them to not have as many rerolls. Theyre already good even without them because of their higher rate of fire, strength and AP.
So you want them to get worse. Again, is your problem rerolls or Marines? We get rid of the rerolls, and just give them extra shots to make up for the lost value, and you don’t like that either, so it feels like rerolls is the excuse to nerf Marines.
Why give them anything? How about we remove the double shots and recost them appropriately? Units don't need to have special rules in order to be useful and interesting.
The problem is more with things that actually happen in a game. The examples of Gaunts, or Ork Boyz can happen and sometimes they will, but with Aggressors they happen in pretty much every game where that unit appears so at the moment the problem is the perfect storm of Aggressors and SM buffs but that's not to say the core mechanics that allow re-rolls to be so prevalent aren't the real problem. All your comments about extra points for character support etc are pretty meaningless when the core argument is "rerolling that number of dice is time-consuming and stupid". I don't really care too much how many points my opponent has spent to get all those re-rolls when the answer is "not enough to significantly reduce the amount of firepower elsewhere in their list". I've charged Aggressors in 8th with full re-rolls to hit and re-roll 1s to wound and my God was it a stupid experience. It took my opponent longer to roll the Overwatch dice than it did for me to resolve the resulting close combat with a unit of Death Company.
74 Pulse Rifles wouldn't be as much of a problem since they only re-roll 1s and don't get wound re-rolls (as far as I recall anyway). They're also not seen very often so in practical terms they're not a problem I care about.
The reroll for those pulse rifles comes from a single 3 point marker light, and gives it to the entire army shooting at that target. The reroll for Marines comes from a 100+ point character and is only given to the units nearby. If you want to add as many pulse rifles as a lieutenant is valued, we can add some more rerolls to that too.
And no, pointing out the points sunk in creating the rerolls bubbles, and the points sunk in the unit using the bubble isn’t pretty meaningless. Especially when you have a little apples and oranges going on by switching to units for the comparison. It’s 3 units and about 25% of a 2000 point army to get that up and running, to then complain no single unit and 10-15% points from another army can get that many shots rerolling or add rolling is a little deceptive.
I’ve seen a lot of people in here complaining about the rerolls, but what they’re really complaining about is the Aggressor.
It’s fairly straight forward, the low model count armies need higher shots per model to be able to get enough damage output to play with the high model count armies. If you yank the rerolls which gives them limited extra shots, they have to get even more of those extra shots all the time to make up for it. If they’re not complaining about marker lights, their problem isn’t rerolls, if their response is “Yeah, but Agressors” their problem isn’t rerolls.
Why give them anything? How about we remove the double shots and recost them appropriately? Units don't need to have special rules in order to be useful and interesting.
Right, why would marines need to shoot more often than the 200 orks/bugs/fish/etc they’re playing against? Just give them all rapid fire 1, and watch them die. And now we’re removing double shots AND rerolls. Yet again the problem isn’t rerolls, it’s nerfing Marines.
The problem is more with things that actually happen in a game. The examples of Gaunts, or Ork Boyz can happen and sometimes they will, but with Aggressors they happen in pretty much every game where that unit appears so at the moment the problem is the perfect storm of Aggressors and SM buffs but that's not to say the core mechanics that allow re-rolls to be so prevalent aren't the real problem. All your comments about extra points for character support etc are pretty meaningless when the core argument is "rerolling that number of dice is time-consuming and stupid". I don't really care too much how many points my opponent has spent to get all those re-rolls when the answer is "not enough to significantly reduce the amount of firepower elsewhere in their list". I've charged Aggressors in 8th with full re-rolls to hit and re-roll 1s to wound and my God was it a stupid experience. It took my opponent longer to roll the Overwatch dice than it did for me to resolve the resulting close combat with a unit of Death Company.
74 Pulse Rifles wouldn't be as much of a problem since they only re-roll 1s and don't get wound re-rolls (as far as I recall anyway). They're also not seen very often so in practical terms they're not a problem I care about.
The reroll for those pulse rifles comes from a single 3 point marker light, and gives it to the entire army shooting at that target. The reroll for Marines comes from a 100+ point character and is only given to the units nearby. If you want to add as many pulse rifles as a lieutenant is valued, we can add some more rerolls to that too.
And no, pointing out the points sunk in creating the rerolls bubbles, and the points sunk in the unit using the bubble isn’t pretty meaningless. Especially when you have a little apples and oranges going on by switching to units for the comparison. It’s 3 units and about 25% of a 2000 point army to get that up and running, to then complain no single unit and 10-15% points from another army can get that many shots rerolling or add rolling is a little deceptive.
I’ve seen a lot of people in here complaining about the rerolls, but what they’re really complaining about is the Aggressor.
You're missing the point. People complain about Aggressors because they actually have to play with and against them. I couldn't care less about a theoretical problem, because it doesn't exist - I've literally never seen that number of Fire Warriors used by anyone because other things are better. If we ended up in a position where Tau armies were routinely getting 100+ shots and rerolling 50 dice between hit and wound re-rolls then yes, I'd be complaining abut Tau re-rolls as well. The problem is the prevalence of re-rolls but the main offender in this case is a SM unit. That's likely because SM in general are pretty broken so a lot of the more egregious examples of broken things are in their Codex. I'm also not a fan of the various other units in the game that show up with large numbers of re-rolls in tow.
Why give them anything? How about we remove the double shots and recost them appropriately? Units don't need to have special rules in order to be useful and interesting.
Right, why would marines need to shoot more often than the 200 orks/bugs/fish/etc they’re playing against? Just give them all rapid fire 1, and watch them die. And now we’re removing double shots AND rerolls. Yet again the problem isn’t rerolls, it’s nerfing Marines.
You don't need to shoot more often, you just need to shoot more effectively. There's no inherent reason that Aggressors have to be able to shoot twice. They could be just as effective without that rule if their points and/or weapon stats changed. Also, elite armies should not just be given a get out of jail free card against hordes by upping their firepower to match them. Having a unit that fires more shots than the horde it's up against, while still getting the advantages of an elite unit (better accuracy, better armour, better save, etc) is bad game design.
And how often are all of those Gaunts going to be in firing range?
The same as Aggressors, they have the same range.
How many of them will hit which then translates to wound rolls being made? It's still substantially lower and quicker than Aggressors, even without re-rolls. And again you keep bringing up examples that don't help your point, with units that get substantially fewer shots and make significantly less dice rolls. Is bringing up 30-ish Fire Warriors with a Markerlight really meant to help your point? I'm honestly confused.
Is continually trying to compare a single unit without the relative value points and slot costs as a percentage of the army list supposed to help yours? Those 30ish Firewarriors are approximately equal points, and do in fact get those reroll-able shots you said no other "unit" could get. Once you start matching point for point instead of unit for unit which isn't as uniform from codex to codex your 100+ rerollable shots can happen.
Even discounting re-rolls Aggressors slow the game down to a crawl. But they do have easy access to re-rolls. And on-hit effects that can allow for extra dice to be rolled. And they're cheap enough to easily fit 2 units of them into a 2k list.
And now you're at about a third of a 2,000 point list and eating CP in stratagems.
The double shoot mechanic on a unit like that is not defensible in any way shape or form.
And from your other posts you seem to think Aggressors would need their weaponry buffed to compensate if they lost double shooting or access to re-rolls which is the most ??? thing ever. If it turns out they're too pricy without that ability then shock horror, they can get their points reduced. But even then, 72 shots from a 6 man unit with plentiful re-rolls at good BS, decent strength, characters and stratagem buffs and the tactical doctrine is still perfectly fething fine and usable.
Well, we could make them about 20 points per model, in units of 5-10 with ~10-11 shots per model. I think the double shoot mechanic wasn't the best choice. I think taking away the volume of fire a low model count army needs to engage a high model count army probably isn't about the time involved for the low model count army. I think turning them into 3-6 Assault 4 Terminators without an invuln will make a lot of high model count armies happy, but won't do much for balance.
Why give them anything? How about we remove the double shots and recost them appropriately? Units don't need to have special rules in order to be useful and interesting.
The way GW recosts things, there is slim chance that after losing the shot twice ability the aggressors would still be worth it. Unless the point drop is really huge. But then people are going to claim that they cost too little.
And how often are all of those Gaunts going to be in firing range?
The same as Aggressors, they have the same range.
Theorycrafting gone wrong my friend. It’s a lot easier to get 6 bases in range than it is to get 30. It’s really not that practical. However to be honest, if you’re running 30 Devourers gaunts you’re probably snake-tunnelling them so you will probably get them all in range of SOMETHING at least. Not that it’s a very good strategy
No 
). So, yeah...
we actually might get some damn hits for a change. And it would make upgrading weapons to a Rokkit at 10pts per a bit more reasonable.