Yea I don't quite get Sunny's point. Marines are forced mono often.
I think Sunny's point is that Canticles might become a thing that disallows for multiple Forge Worlds in your army?
Truthfully, I think "Engine War" gave us a good glimpse to where Canticles might be going. We got Forge World specific Canticles in there, so I'm curious if they're going to become a more integrated part of the army roster than they are now.
Imateria wrote: GW seem to be shifting their printing to the UK, the Necron codex is the first I've seen that was printed here rather than in China.
Are they? If that is the case I'm a little more open to cost increases.
they change that from book to book often without changing the price
I have here army books printed in China, Poland and UK and by that time the all had the same price
Yea I don't quite get Sunny's point. Marines are forced mono often.
I think Sunny's point is that Canticles might become a thing that disallows for multiple Forge Worlds in your army?
Truthfully, I think "Engine War" gave us a good glimpse to where Canticles might be going. We got Forge World specific Canticles in there, so I'm curious if they're going to become a more integrated part of the army roster than they are now.
If it does, it'd be a first. Sisters' Rites, marines Doctrines, Drukhari's PFP and necrons' protocols all stick around if you have multiple subfactions in your army.
Leggy wrote: Heavy nerf to Power from pain, but I like what I see for everything else. Poison Tongue getting 3+ to wound every non-vehicle in the game looks tasty, and a master archon with a dijon blade can dish out a lot of damage
Not sure it's a nerf - might actually be a buff!! Look at the abilities side by side:
Turn 1:6+ Inv vs 6+ FnP Sideways transition. In a world of multi-damage weapons, this is actually a buff!
Turn 2:Reroll advance and charge rolls vs Can advance and charge Upgrade, at a cost. Being able to advance and charge is a huge deal for getting those last extra inches on stuff. Even Wyches, who could get this ability as a trait, had to give up other stuff to get it. Now you just have it always, and starting so early too! The cost? Deep Strike and Charge is a lot less reliable, and the times where you needed to reroll an advance to get onto an objective is lost. Once could argue that your charges are less ideal now, but I wholly disagree, since advancing just 2" increases your likelihood of making a charge by more than what a reroll would do (roll a total of 9 on 2d6 with a reroll is 48% likely to work, and rolling a total of 7 on 2d6 is 58.3% likely to work).
Turn 3:+1 WS vs +1 to hit in melee and no Engagement Range penalty Nearly pure upgrade. Outside the situation where you'll be at -2 to hit in melee (where a WS of 1+ would technically face no penalties - don't worry about the rules here, it's accurate and mattered almost never), the +1 to hit in melee is equivalent, which means the bonus for no penalties while in Engagement Range is just a pure upgrade over before.
Turn 4:Morale Immunity vs 5+ Inv Definite upgrade. Morale seems to rarely come up, which means that the 5+ Inv will be better almost all the time. But... there's that almost. There will absolutely be times where losing that final model to morale will give you some salt, but then you just gotta remember the extra 100 models over your other games that the improved Inv has saved, and I think you'll be okay.
Turn 5:-1 Ld vs Morale Immunity and double-wounds for bracket checks 100% upgrade. I had to look up all the buffs, but they were just to confirm the order they happened in. But this one from the old 'dex? Couldn't even remember it. It just NEVER mattered. Not once. Please regale me with your 9th edition stories where it mattered, because I'd love to laugh at the poor schmuck that had the misfortune of being one of the few players on planet Earth to suffer from this. Morale immunity? Hey, like the last one, there are times where it matters and it stings, especially at the end of the game (where it's also least likely to come up, but w/e). The double-wounds for brackets though is CLUTCH!!! Why? Because of movement! Suffering less, or not suffering at all, to your movement in that last turn is really phenomenal, and gives vehicle-based Drukhari forces a big end-game push.
So yeah. This is an upgrade in pretty much every way that matters, no?
Realspace Raid is hyper-powerful. Each INDIVIDUAL UNIT can have their own drukhari obsession if you want - holy crap. I can have poisoned tongue kabalites and Black Heart ravagers and a custom close combat kabal archon and court if I want to.You give up on some aura synergy potentially, but given the archon's new aura power...,not THAT Much....
I don't think that's how it works. My reading is that you pick one Obsession and it applies to all models in that detachment, so if you pick Poisoned Tongue, even though it's a Kabal, your Wyches and Wracks get the Obsession too.
I'm not reading either of those. It says "All units.... in that Detachment gain a Drukhari Obsession"
The drukhari obsessions are the titles of all the special features that could apply to cults, or covens or kabals. So you pick 3 obsessions, one cult obsession, one kabal obsession, and one coven obsession, and all units would gain the appropriate type. Because based on the datasheets, coven units can only get coven obsessions, cult units can only get cult obsessions and kabals can only get kabal obsessions.
If it does, it'd be a first. Sisters' Rites, marines Doctrines, Drukhari's PFP and necrons' protocols all stick around if you have multiple subfactions in your army.
*shrug* Just a gut feeling I've got. It's likely wrong, but I could see them taking a "Realspace Raiders" approach. Skitarii can get their own perk, Cult stuff can get their own, and Knights can get their own too.
Deepstrike and charge in 9th was much weaker than advance and charge not by the rule but because deepstrike is just too weak right now. Better to start on the board and just move where you want to be.
Realspace Raid is hyper-powerful. Each INDIVIDUAL UNIT can have their own drukhari obsession if you want - holy crap. I can have poisoned tongue kabalites and Black Heart ravagers and a custom close combat kabal archon and court if I want to.You give up on some aura synergy potentially, but given the archon's new aura power...,not THAT Much....
I don't think that's how it works. My reading is that you pick one Obsession and it applies to all models in that detachment, so if you pick Poisoned Tongue, even though it's a Kabal, your Wyches and Wracks get the Obsession too.
I'm not reading either of those. It says "All units.... in that Detachment gain a Drukhari Obsession"
The drukhari obsessions are the titles of all the special features that could apply to cults, or covens or kabals. So you pick 3 obsessions, one cult obsession, one kabal obsession, and one coven obsession, and all units would gain the appropriate type. Because based on the datasheets, coven units can only get coven obsessions, cult units can only get cult obsessions and kabals can only get kabal obsessions.
This is how I read it. In those rules you need to change the <keywords> for the ones you are selecting, so the rule as written lets you change the keyword three times, one for each type.
So, when applied to your army, it would read:
... As well as gaining Drukhari Obsessions for each <Black Heart>, <Red Grief> and <Prophets of Flesh> unit in a Realspace Raid Detachment...
Leggy wrote: Heavy nerf to Power from pain, but I like what I see for everything else. Poison Tongue getting 3+ to wound every non-vehicle in the game looks tasty, and a master archon with a dijon blade can dish out a lot of damage
Not sure it's a nerf - might actually be a buff!! Look at the abilities side by side:
Turn 1:6+ Inv vs 6+ FnP Sideways transition. In a world of multi-damage weapons, this is actually a buff!
Turn 2:Reroll advance and charge rolls vs Can advance and charge Upgrade, at a cost. Being able to advance and charge is a huge deal for getting those last extra inches on stuff. Even Wyches, who could get this ability as a trait, had to give up other stuff to get it. Now you just have it always, and starting so early too! The cost? Deep Strike and Charge is a lot less reliable, and the times where you needed to reroll an advance to get onto an objective is lost. Once could argue that your charges are less ideal now, but I wholly disagree, since advancing just 2" increases your likelihood of making a charge by more than what a reroll would do (roll a total of 9 on 2d6 with a reroll is 48% likely to work, and rolling a total of 7 on 2d6 is 58.3% likely to work).
Turn 3:+1 WS vs +1 to hit in melee and no Engagement Range penalty Nearly pure upgrade. Outside the situation where you'll be at -2 to hit in melee (where a WS of 1+ would technically face no penalties - don't worry about the rules here, it's accurate and mattered almost never), the +1 to hit in melee is equivalent, which means the bonus for no penalties while in Engagement Range is just a pure upgrade over before.
Turn 4:Morale Immunity vs 5+ Inv Definite upgrade. Morale seems to rarely come up, which means that the 5+ Inv will be better almost all the time. But... there's that almost. There will absolutely be times where losing that final model to morale will give you some salt, but then you just gotta remember the extra 100 models over your other games that the improved Inv has saved, and I think you'll be okay.
Turn 5:-1 Ld vs Morale Immunity and double-wounds for bracket checks 100% upgrade. I had to look up all the buffs, but they were just to confirm the order they happened in. But this one from the old 'dex? Couldn't even remember it. It just NEVER mattered. Not once. Please regale me with your 9th edition stories where it mattered, because I'd love to laugh at the poor schmuck that had the misfortune of being one of the few players on planet Earth to suffer from this. Morale immunity? Hey, like the last one, there are times where it matters and it stings, especially at the end of the game (where it's also least likely to come up, but w/e). The double-wounds for brackets though is CLUTCH!!! Why? Because of movement! Suffering less, or not suffering at all, to your movement in that last turn is really phenomenal, and gives vehicle-based Drukhari forces a big end-game push.
So yeah. This is an upgrade in pretty much every way that matters, no?
In almost every way, except for the Covens that start with a 5++ or 4++ if that is going to remain the same. Their inherent Invuln saves mean that they get no benefit from the PFP turn 1 and 4 effects. Whereas before, the durability of some of the coven units was a 4++ with a PFP ability. But as someone else mentioned in a different thread, perhaps their ability will read something to the effect of "add 1 to the invuln save granted by PFP"
Galas wrote: Deepstrike and charge in 9th was much weaker than advance and charge not by the rule but because deepstrike is just too weak right now. Better to start on the board and just move where you want to be.
Realspace Raid is hyper-powerful. Each INDIVIDUAL UNIT can have their own drukhari obsession if you want - holy crap. I can have poisoned tongue kabalites and Black Heart ravagers and a custom close combat kabal archon and court if I want to.You give up on some aura synergy potentially, but given the archon's new aura power...,not THAT Much....
I don't think that's how it works. My reading is that you pick one Obsession and it applies to all models in that detachment, so if you pick Poisoned Tongue, even though it's a Kabal, your Wyches and Wracks get the Obsession too.
I'm not reading either of those. It says "All units.... in that Detachment gain a Drukhari Obsession"
The drukhari obsessions are the titles of all the special features that could apply to cults, or covens or kabals. So you pick 3 obsessions, one cult obsession, one kabal obsession, and one coven obsession, and all units would gain the appropriate type. Because based on the datasheets, coven units can only get coven obsessions, cult units can only get cult obsessions and kabals can only get kabal obsessions.
This is how I read it. In those rules you need to change the <keywords> for the ones you are selecting, so the rule as written lets you change the keyword three times, one for each type.
So, when applied to your army, it would read:
... As well as gaining Drukhari Obsessions for each <Black Heart>, <Red Grief> and <Prophets of Flesh> unit in a Realspace Raid Detachment...
You're not wrong. Deep strike is basically only useful for protecting a vulnerable shooting unit or for deploying an el chepo unit to some area on the board where he can start an action.
Realspace Raid is hyper-powerful. Each INDIVIDUAL UNIT can have their own drukhari obsession if you want - holy crap. I can have poisoned tongue kabalites and Black Heart ravagers and a custom close combat kabal archon and court if I want to.You give up on some aura synergy potentially, but given the archon's new aura power...,not THAT Much....
I don't think that's how it works. My reading is that you pick one Obsession and it applies to all models in that detachment, so if you pick Poisoned Tongue, even though it's a Kabal, your Wyches and Wracks get the Obsession too.
Not sure about that either. Definitely need a FAQ or supporting language.
Realspace Raid is hyper-powerful. Each INDIVIDUAL UNIT can have their own drukhari obsession if you want - holy crap. I can have poisoned tongue kabalites and Black Heart ravagers and a custom close combat kabal archon and court if I want to.You give up on some aura synergy potentially, but given the archon's new aura power...,not THAT Much....
I don't think that's how it works. My reading is that you pick one Obsession and it applies to all models in that detachment, so if you pick Poisoned Tongue, even though it's a Kabal, your Wyches and Wracks get the Obsession too.
Not sure about that either. Definitely need a FAQ or supporting language.
There's at least four ways I can interpret it functioning, so it definitely needs to be cleaned up.
Icculus wrote: In almost every way, except for the Covens that start with a 5++ or 4++ if that is going to remain the same. Their inherent Invuln saves mean that they get no benefit from the PFP turn 1 and 4 effects. Whereas before, the durability of some of the coven units was a 4++ with a PFP ability. But as someone else mentioned in a different thread, perhaps their ability will read something to the effect of "add 1 to the invuln save granted by PFP"
Yeah, but I wouldn't hold your breath on those things staying the same. I wouldn't be surprised to see things like Wracks gaining something like permanent trans-human or some other kind of toughness-boosting schtick. Lots of stuff could be changing here, and it'd be silly to think that all the obsessions and stat-lines will stay the same.
If ever detachment is a patrol detachment each of them only cost 0 CP. But what is a real space raiding force? One where we can mix units within that one detachment?
Also, do all of this shut off when we bring allies? Drukahri also loose the power from pain ability?
Reading further the real space raid unit seemingly can combine things freely. But if we want the bonus special feature it needs 1 of each HQ and 1 of each basic troop? Meaning we loose out on having 3 patrolls for 0 CP.
So the most common ways will be
A) 3 patrols, one witch can be mixed at 0 CP loss.
B) One super detachment non patroll with 3 HQ and 3 troops for 0 CP loss. Optionally with more detachments at CP loss.
C) Some other combination are regular CP losses, one that can be mixed.
Is this right?
Also, I really like that the true born are back! But we need anrcon to unlock each of them? Perhaps also wytches get blood brides back (speculation.)
Jidmah wrote: Realspace raiders also is good news for chaos undivided players.
Oooooh.....dang. Now you got me all hype.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Niiai wrote: I am confused. Are we missing some information?
If ever detachment is a patrol detachment each of them only cost 0 CP. But what is a real space raiding force? One where we can mix units within that one detachment?
Also, do all of this shut off when we bring allies? Drukahri also loose the power from pain ability?
Real space can be any type, but obviously at least a Battalion, which means your other Patrols no longer cost 0 if you do so.
An Obsession is a special rule that all units with the relevant <keyword> get in a detachment which contains units with only one <keyword>.
The realspace raiders detachment is a special detachment that enables the Obsession rule for all <keyword> units, regardless of whether or not the unit is entirely composed of units of one <keyword>.
as written, tehre is no stipulation that you must only choose one <kabal> one <coven> and one <cult> to gain their obsession rules.
In almost every way, except for the Covens that start with a 5++ or 4++ if that is going to remain the same. Their inherent Invuln saves mean that they get no benefit from the PFP turn 1 and 4 effects. Whereas before, the durability of some of the coven units was a 4++ with a PFP ability. But as someone else mentioned in a different thread, perhaps their ability will read something to the effect of "add 1 to the invuln save granted by PFP"
Niiai wrote: I am confused. Are we missing some information?
If ever detachment is a patrol detachment each of them only cost 0 CP. But what is a real space raiding force? One where we can mix units within that one detachment?
Also, do all of this shut off when we bring allies? Drukahri also loose the power from pain ability?
Reading further the real space raid unit seemingly can combine things freely. But if we want the bonus special feature it needs 1 of each HQ and 1 of each basic troop? Meaning we loose out on having 3 patrolls for 0 CP.
So the most common ways will be
A) 3 patrols, one witch can be mixed at 0 CP loss.
B) One super detachment non patroll with 3 HQ and 3 troops for 0 CP loss. Optionally with more detachments at CP loss.
C) Some other combination are regular CP losses, one that can be mixed.
Is this right?
Yeah, you’ve got that, pretty much. Triple Patrol like the current book costs zero, or big block raiding force costs zero, but not both.
Niiai wrote: I am confused. Are we missing some information?
If ever detachment is a patrol detachment each of them only cost 0 CP. But what is a real space raiding force? One where we can mix units within that one detachment?
Also, do all of this shut off when we bring allies? Drukahri also loose the power from pain ability?
Reading further the real space raid unit seemingly can combine things freely. But if we want the bonus special feature it needs 1 of each HQ and 1 of each basic troop? Meaning we loose out on having 3 patrolls for 0 CP.
So the most common ways will be
A) 3 patrols, one witch can be mixed at 0 CP loss.
B) One super detachment non patroll with 3 HQ and 3 troops for 0 CP loss. Optionally with more detachments at CP loss.
C) Some other combination are regular CP losses, one that can be mixed.
Is this right?
Also, I really like that the true born are back! But we need anrcon to unlock each of them? Perhaps also wytches get blood brides back (speculation.)
The way I read the new detachment rules is that 3 Patrols will give you a net gain of 2 CP.
The Command Cost of each Patrol is reduced to 0CP, but there is nothing that removes the Command Benefit of gaining +2CP if your Warlord is in a Patrol.
Aash wrote: The way I read the new detachment rules is that 3 Patrols will give you a net gain of 2 CP.
The Command Cost of each Patrol is reduced to 0CP, but there is nothing that removes the Command Benefit of gaining +2CP if your Warlord is in a Patrol.
I think it needs to be remembered this is a WarCom article, they're not exactly known for writing up their rules previews to be 100% verbatum to whats in the codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The only things here that seem unequivecally great are Combat Drugs, being able to freely pick or roll to get 2 is immesurably better than the crappy set up we used to have, and Poisoned Tongue who are clearly no longer the wooden spoon option of the Kabal Obsessions.
vipoid wrote: Wait, DE now only get FNP if they don't take allies?
Feth off, GW.
It's an Invuln now. Not a FNP.
Meant PfP, not FNP.
That's 9th for you, soup is punished.
That's just plain dishonest.
For every other army, not-souping is rewarded with extra rules.
For Dark Eldar, souping is punished with the loss of a previously-core rule.
It wouldn't surprise me if there are other faction-wide rules left to be revealed. I remember Disgustingly Resilient and Contagions had two separate reveals with Malicious Volley and more not known until the book came out.
Yea I don't quite get Sunny's point. Marines are forced mono often.
I think Sunny's point is that Canticles might become a thing that disallows for multiple Forge Worlds in your army?
Truthfully, I think "Engine War" gave us a good glimpse to where Canticles might be going. We got Forge World specific Canticles in there, so I'm curious if they're going to become a more integrated part of the army roster than they are now.
If it does, it'd be a first. Sisters' Rites, marines Doctrines, Drukhari's PFP and necrons' protocols all stick around if you have multiple subfactions in your army.
No, you lose Protocols if you have more than one subfaction. I'm hoping for other factions sake that this was just a Necron thing. We've also got a ton of other hoops to jump through as well that the other armies haven't gotten, so I think it's likely a one off thing.
Leggy wrote: Heavy nerf to Power from pain, but I like what I see for everything else. Poison Tongue getting 3+ to wound every non-vehicle in the game looks tasty, and a master archon with a dijon blade can dish out a lot of damage
Not sure it's a nerf - might actually be a buff!! Look at the abilities side by side:
Turn 1:6+ Inv vs 6+ FnP Sideways transition. In a world of multi-damage weapons, this is actually a buff!
...
Turn 4:Morale Immunity vs 5+ Inv Definite upgrade. Morale seems to rarely come up, which means that the 5+ Inv will be better almost all the time. But... there's that almost. There will absolutely be times where losing that final model to morale will give you some salt, but then you just gotta remember the extra 100 models over your other games that the improved Inv has saved, and I think you'll be okay.
[
So yeah. This is an upgrade in pretty much every way that matters, no?
Nope you don't know the army I guess, about 80-90% of the army had a 6++ or better already would say about 50% of the army was a 5++ or better even. So outside of say kabalites/incubi on foot, you won't get much mileage out of the 6++ as DE. Even the turn 4 that you throw out as so good is kinda meh for DE specifically, here only will really effect non coven non in combat wyches non vehicles (which if you know anything about DE you are always in transports, or you are dead) Its not that the morale immunity was good, it wasn't the 5++ is better, but its kinda a mediocre buff, as half the army doesn't really care, and would have preferred the 6+++ still. The turn 1 is a straight up nerf to dark eldar though.
DG lost the 5+++ FNP and gained -1 damage which is actually ok on an army comprising 90% multiwound models worse in some situations better in others. DE lost a 6+++ and get nothing for 90% of the army on a mid tier faction. Gotta love GWs hatred of xenos.
The rest of the PfP stuff is fine, the reroll charge vs advance and charge is kinda a side grade,makes longer charges more risky while making what would have been midrange charges safer, makes an entire wych cult obsolete turn 2 unless they have changed (and I would hope they have.) But it is not an upgrade in every way that matters, its actually worse overall honestly, with some slight wording tweaks to account for new rules and such.
Rest of the preview though was reasonable and cause for some hope so we will see I guess, but the PfP change was NOT a good thing.
Some better stuff today but am I the only one who doesn't like how they have to twist the system into knots just to keep the different DE subfactions different ?
I mean we lost platoons for Guard because it was " too confusing " yet running a bunch of patrols because all the DE hate each other is somehow better execution ? I just feel like this needs to be done away with, it felt stupid before, its more cost effective now but still very stupid.
At least it makes more sense but it would be best if they just did away with it.
Makes me wonder if they will do a similar thing with guard, break it up to Core Guard forces, storm troopers/commissars being their own groupings as they can already combine but the storm troopers then don't get their extra power. I guess that would be a better solution for them given the current state of the game.
This is all me just thinking out loud on what we've heard btw. Feel free to love needing all these other deatchments or maybe the only one we'll see now is the real space raid group.
If RSR ends up being "you pick one Kabal, Cult and Coven trait, and it applies to the relevant units" (Which I think is more likely than every unit being able to pick from all available options) - it raises the obvious question why this couldn't just be an army wide rule that applies to all DE detachments.
"We've given you the tools to get around the hole we created" isn't great. Just delete the hole.
Tyel wrote: If RSR ends up being "you pick one Kabal, Cult and Coven trait, and it applies to the relevant units" (Which I think is more likely than every unit being able to pick from all available options) - it raises the obvious question why this couldn't just be an army wide rule that applies to all DE detachments.
"We've given you the tools to get around the hole we created" isn't great. Just delete the hole.
GrinNfool wrote: Nope you don't know the army I guess, about 80-90% of the army had a 6++ or better already would say about 50% of the army was a 5++ or better even. So outside of say kabalites/incubi on foot, you won't get much mileage out of the 6++ as DE. Even the turn 4 that you throw out as so good is kinda meh for DE specifically, here only will really effect non coven non in combat wyches non vehicles (which if you know anything about DE you are always in transports, or you are dead) Its not that the morale immunity was good, it wasn't the 5++ is better, but its kinda a mediocre buff, as half the army doesn't really care, and would have preferred the 6+++ still. The turn 1 is a straight up nerf to dark eldar though.
You don't actually know whether those units still have invuls, and if they do it's possible that those rules stack with the invuls you get from PfP. If harlequins have 4++ dodge saves, it doesn't seem like wide stretch that empowered wyches get the same.
DG lost the 5+++ FNP and gained -1 damage which is actually ok on an army comprising 90% multiwound models worse in some situations better in others. DE lost a 6+++ and get nothing for 90% of the army on a mid tier faction. Gotta love GWs hatred of xenos.
Sorry, but that's wrong. -1 damage is strictly worse than 5+++, so that also was an army-wide nerf. The army as a whole still turned out to be better when you look at the full picture, and units like pox walkers got additional buffs to not only stay relevant, but turn into one of the best units, despite completely losing DR.
GrinNfool wrote: Nope you don't know the army I guess, about 80-90% of the army had a 6++ or better already would say about 50% of the army was a 5++ or better even. So outside of say kabalites/incubi on foot, you won't get much mileage out of the 6++ as DE. Even the turn 4 that you throw out as so good is kinda meh for DE specifically, here only will really effect non coven non in combat wyches non vehicles (which if you know anything about DE you are always in transports, or you are dead) Its not that the morale immunity was good, it wasn't the 5++ is better, but its kinda a mediocre buff, as half the army doesn't really care, and would have preferred the 6+++ still. The turn 1 is a straight up nerf to dark eldar though.
You don't actually know whether those units still have invuls, and if they do it's possible that those rules stack with the invuls you get from PfP. If harlequins have 4++ dodge saves, it doesn't seem like wide stretch that empowered wyches get the same.
DG lost the 5+++ FNP and gained -1 damage which is actually ok on an army comprising 90% multiwound models worse in some situations better in others. DE lost a 6+++ and get nothing for 90% of the army on a mid tier faction. Gotta love GWs hatred of xenos.
Sorry, but that's wrong. -1 damage is strictly worse than 5+++, so that also was an army-wide nerf. The army as a whole still turned out to be better when you look at the full picture, and units like pox walkers got additional buffs to not only stay relevant, but turn into one of the best units, despite completely losing DR.
I suppose you are right they could have just straight gutted the already limited survive-ability, so ya in your situation you outlined there DE lost our 6+++ and our 5++ in the same move, if your intent here was to say it could be even worse I guess but you seem to be implying you it would be mana from heaven somehow to get a 6++ and a 5++ turn 4 and them remove the 5++ we already have in addition to taking away the 6+++. No clue where you were going with that man, unless its to say it could always be worse, and it certainly could. They do that though and DE are DoA. Your suggestion that you can improve the 6++ is exceedingly unlikely as the 5++ is given an entirely different name instead of simply saying improve the inured to suffering roll by 1, up to x. Instead DE will get 2 different invuln rules possibly 3 if they keep things like night shields, ghost plate, etc. All I was saying is that the guy trying to say the PfP changes were completely positive was just objectively incorrect, barring some absolute mental gymnastics that GW went through to make rules are complicated as possible instead of just leaving rules in place. Which its GW so can't rule it out I guess but still, expecting that is kinda silly.
And no the -1 damage is not strictly worse people need to stop repeating that and do some math, it is strictly better vs 2 damage weapons for infantry or vehicles while being strictly worse vs 1 damage or 3 damage vs infantry vehicles have different break points but a 10 wound vehicle would have 14 effective wounds 15 if lucky with the fnp being shot by 3 damage weapons requires 5 hits to go through either way so thats a break even. I didn't say it was an upgrade or even better for that matter I said it was just an ok side grade, and it happens to work just fine in the context of the meta of 2 damage being prevalent and DG rules.
GrinNfool wrote: I suppose you are right they could have just straight gutted the already limited survive-ability, so ya in your situation you outlined there DE lost our 6+++ and our 5++ in the same move, if your intent here was to say it could be even worse I guess but you seem to be implying you it would be mana from heaven somehow to get a 6++ and a 5++ turn 4 and them remove the 5++ we already have in addition to taking away the 6+++. No clue where you were going with that man, unless its to say it could always be worse, and it certainly could. They do that though and DE are DoA. Your suggestion that you can improve the 6++ is exceedingly unlikely as the 5++ is given an entirely different name instead of simply saying improve the inured to suffering roll by 1, up to x. Instead DE will get 2 different invuln rules possibly 3 if they keep things like night shields, ghost plate, etc. All I was saying is that the guy trying to say the PfP changes were completely positive was just objectively incorrect, barring some absolute mental gymnastics that GW went through to make rules are complicated as possible instead of just leaving rules in place. Which its GW so can't rule it out I guess but still, expecting that is kinda silly.
My intent was that there might be more to it than meets the eye. GW is currently experimenting a lot with alternate ways to make units more survivable that do not require a dice roll (see Belakor preview), and at least for the codices so far they took care to eliminate weird interactions like giving units with invuls when their army-wide trait does the same.
And no the -1 damage is not strictly worse people need to stop repeating that and do some math, it is strictly better vs 2 damage weapons for infantry or vehicles while being strictly worse vs 1 damage or 3 damage vs infantry vehicles have different break points but a 10 wound vehicle would have 14 effective wounds 15 if lucky with the fnp being shot by 3 damage weapons requires 5 hits to go through either way so thats a break even. I didn't say it was an upgrade or even better for that matter I said it was just an ok side grade, and it happens to work just fine in the context of the meta of 2 damage being prevalent and DG rules.
Sorry, did the math, played the army, you're still wrong. The only time it comes out ahead if more than 50% of your unsaved wounds over the course of a game are 2 damage. Infantry only got more durable because they gained a wound. Big models have lost 10-20% effective health compared to before, meltas and d3+3 weapons cut through them like hot butter. Feel free to dig up the math on the relevant threads. Even if 2 damage were as prevalent as you say (it's not), the presence of DG in the meta would reverse that trend.
I can see how losing their "army rule" for it to be their "doctrine" anti-soup rule can feel a little meh.
But at the same time, Deathguard have basically no sub-faction rule and they work extremely well. In the same way, the "anti-soup" bonus for Necrons is extremely meh and they work just fine.
I definitely anticipate that a lot of abilities are going to be shifting away from invulns to account for the new 6++. Probably not on vehicles - which usually don't get PFP anyway - theyll probably just change the Black Heart trait to something different for vehicles.
For example: Inured from Pain, the 5++ that alll haemie coven units have. That'll either become a FNP, or something like -1 damage, which would suck for wracks. but we know wracks are going from 12ppm to 8ppm, I doubt theyll be seeing buffs.
......it is still endlessly funny to me that people are like "GW is moving away from army wide fnp!" and iron hands just sitting there like "um..... but it's OK for us right? like literally army-wide feel no pain, on every single model, all of them."
Eh, let them have it. I think everyone can agree that Codex: Space Marines isn't exactly a great book. A 6+ FNP doesn't really do a lot anyways. As a DG player I'm really glad about no longer having to resolve every multi-damage shot one by one, rolling for every single damage I suffer.
Sorry, did the math, played the army, you're still wrong. The only time it comes out ahead if more than 50% of your unsaved wounds over the course of a game are 2 damage. Infantry only got more durable because they gained a wound. Big models have lost 10-20% effective health compared to before, meltas and d3+3 weapons cut through them like hot butter. Feel free to dig up the math on the relevant threads.
Even if 2 damage were as prevalent as you say (it's not), the presence of DG in the meta would reverse that trend.
Well duh. You don't compare 5+++ W2 plague marines vs current. Those never existed.
Infantry got buff and DR is part of that. D2 weapons is such a huge part of 40k that you basically doubled your infantry durability. Try 5+++ W1 plague marines vs current ones and say which is more durable. Anybody comparing current to W2 5+++ plague marines is being dishonest.
Jidmah wrote: Eh, let them have it. I think everyone can agree that Codex: Space Marines isn't exactly a great book. A 6+ FNP doesn't really do a lot anyways.
As a DG player I'm really glad about no longer having to resolve every multi-damage shot one by one, rolling for every single damage I suffer.
...I mean I can't. Playing vs marines still feels solidly in the 'bullcrap' territory with the majority of the armies I own, though admittedly I have somehow managed to thread the needle of just one single army I own having gotten a codex so far in 9th. And that army is marines, so they do feel fair to play against marines.
Sorry, did the math, played the army, you're still wrong. The only time it comes out ahead if more than 50% of your unsaved wounds over the course of a game are 2 damage. Infantry only got more durable because they gained a wound. Big models have lost 10-20% effective health compared to before, meltas and d3+3 weapons cut through them like hot butter. Feel free to dig up the math on the relevant threads.
Even if 2 damage were as prevalent as you say (it's not), the presence of DG in the meta would reverse that trend.
Well duh. You don't compare 5+++ W2 plague marines vs current. Those never existed.
Infantry got buff and DR is part of that. D2 weapons is such a huge part of 40k that you basically doubled your infantry durability. Try 5+++ W1 plague marines vs current ones and say which is more durable. Anybody comparing current to W2 5+++ plague marines is being dishonest.
Jidmah wrote: Eh, let them have it. I think everyone can agree that Codex: Space Marines isn't exactly a great book. A 6+ FNP doesn't really do a lot anyways.
As a DG player I'm really glad about no longer having to resolve every multi-damage shot one by one, rolling for every single damage I suffer.
...I mean I can't. Playing vs marines still feels solidly in the 'bullcrap' territory with the majority of the armies I own, though admittedly I have somehow managed to thread the needle of just one single army I own having gotten a codex so far in 9th. And that army is marines, so they do feel fair to play against marines.
Sure, but I doubt the reason for that is the 6+++ save. I think the reason for making FNP a less common mechanic is more aimed at making games run smoother than reducing power.
Hate it. This system is bad, has always been bad and will always be bad.
Gain free power-ups by not taking things you weren't building around anyway is a crazy 'trade-off.' Has been since the old chapter/regiment tactics back in... 5th? edition
This is pure rules bloat for the sake of having power sets to push sales of a $60 junk book.
I think people are opening themselves for a letdown if they expect Covens to keep their 5++(or 4++ if you are Prophets). It made the choice of Drukhari Detachment very lopsided as 4++ was such a strong trait and even with 5++ Covens were out-surviving everything else in the codex.
Voss wrote: Gain free power-ups by not taking things you weren't building around anyway is a crazy 'trade-off.' Has been since the old chapter/regiment tactics back in... 5th? edition
Even before that. 3.5 Chaos Codex and 3.5 Imperial Guard Codex both had the same probelm.
As you said. If you're giving up things you were never going to take in the first place, then you're not really giving anything up.
Voss wrote: This is pure rules bloat for the sake of having power sets to push sales of a $60 junk book.
Voss wrote: Hate it. This system is bad, has always been bad and will always be bad.
Gain free power-ups by not taking things you weren't building around anyway is a crazy 'trade-off.' Has been since the old chapter/regiment tactics back in... 5th? edition
This is pure rules bloat for the sake of having power sets to push sales of a $60 junk book.
Death guard weren’t taking any vehicles, and Ad Mech weren’t taking any Skitarii?
It's a bit of a cynical way to sell campaign books to people who wouldn't otherwise be interested in campaign books as a general concept. Bundle in some free boons for your army!
Voss wrote: Hate it. This system is bad, has always been bad and will always be bad.
Gain free power-ups by not taking things you weren't building around anyway is a crazy 'trade-off.' Has been since the old chapter/regiment tactics back in... 5th? edition
This is pure rules bloat for the sake of having power sets to push sales of a $60 junk book.
Death guard weren’t taking any vehicles, and Ad Mech weren’t taking any Skitarii?
Really?
I'm not sure how much Admech were taking Skitarii but their boons also seem... less stellar. Death Guard not bringing vehicles is kinda crippling, though.
Billicus wrote: It's a bit of a cynical way to sell campaign books to people who wouldn't otherwise be interested in campaign books as a general concept. Bundle in some free boons for your army!
Basically it's a lose for a type custommer atleast.
Not narratively inclined players which want to play somewhat competitively are forced to buy another book and narratively inclined ones can expect probably less quality because gw knows that the former will buy anyways.
It's also really really annoying, that we only just recently cut down all the books needed only to see it again expanded just for having the rules and it reeks of miliking the customerbase.
Also lol at literally stealing the "purge" special stratagem for the harbringers, much recycling, many rejoice
Eldarsif wrote: I think people are opening themselves for a letdown if they expect Covens to keep their 5++(or 4++ if you are Prophets). It made the choice of Drukhari Detachment very lopsided as 4++ was such a strong trait and even with 5++ Covens were out-surviving everything else in the codex.
So I fully expect the 4++ and 5++ will go.
Do you expect them to get anything to replace it, or are Covens just not meant to be used in 9th?
Voss wrote: Hate it. This system is bad, has always been bad and will always be bad.
Gain free power-ups by not taking things you weren't building around anyway is a crazy 'trade-off.' Has been since the old chapter/regiment tactics back in... 5th? edition
This is pure rules bloat for the sake of having power sets to push sales of a $60 junk book.
Death guard weren’t taking any vehicles, and Ad Mech weren’t taking any Skitarii?
Really?
Yep, really, really. No. Obviously 'no one was ever taking those' isn't the point. But if you present a system where you can trade off optional things that are merely average to make other things better, you aren't presenting a meaningful choice. Just a buff.
If you're already considering an infantry heavy DG list, you might as well go all out and commit, and get the free bonuses. If you're not considering it (and don't play any of the other armies that get $pecial DLC rule$ in this book), I guess you save $60
Don't think its 7th level overpowered given those are some real limitations.
But... its not something that should be coming out in the first year of a new edition. If GW wanted Terminus Est Assault Force to be a viable, alternative way to play DG - why not put it in the DG codex? Why do you need alternate ways to play a book that came out a few weeks ago?
Basically its a cool idea, just don't think it should have been done this way.
Also, seems like the only drukhari preview we're getting is gonna be the one from yesterday, rip. I expect the remainder of this week will be 2 regiments of renown per day...though I suppose the RoR for wych cults is a drukhari preview, let us know what our day 1 dlc will be.
How are they gonna further restrict wych cults, I wonder? we have like 6 units total. No vehicles probably.
as a "oh no we need to sell more books" rule system goes, I like these a lot better than 7th ed formations, and also better than the vigilus..thingies from 8th that just costed a CP and then gave you a couple relics and strats.
I'm not going to buy the book - these sorts of rules have the lifespan of soft cheese, and I've got no interest in playing the campaign mode. But I definitely don't mind playing against these rules, the benefits are fairly slight and the restrictions fairly hefty.
How the heck do the Admech benefits work though? Isn't the whole 'set to defend, hold strong' thing just the exact rule for Defensible cover? Are they counted as being in Defensible Cover if they're in their DZ or near an objective, is that the deal?
If so that's kinda a boring playstyle I guess. "here's some rules so you can sit in your DZ and never move, how fun for you and your opponent."
Tyel wrote: Don't think its 7th level overpowered given those are some real limitations.
But... its not something that should be coming out in the first year of a new edition. If GW wanted Terminus Est Assault Force to be a viable, alternative way to play DG - why not put it in the DG codex? Why do you need alternate ways to play a book that came out a few weeks ago?
Basically its a cool idea, just don't think it should have been done this way.
Because £$CHF/EURO, whatever else you happen to use.
It's a blatant cashgrab.
And there's no easier way to monetise the playerbase at large then via rules.
Voss wrote: Hate it. This system is bad, has always been bad and will always be bad.
Gain free power-ups by not taking things you weren't building around anyway is a crazy 'trade-off.' Has been since the old chapter/regiment tactics back in... 5th? edition
This is pure rules bloat for the sake of having power sets to push sales of a $60 junk book.
Death guard weren’t taking any vehicles, and Ad Mech weren’t taking any Skitarii?
Really?
Yep, really, really. No. Obviously 'no one was ever taking those' isn't the point. But if you present a system where you can trade off optional things that are merely average to make other things better, you aren't presenting a meaningful choice. Just a buff.
If you're already considering an infantry heavy DG list, you might as well go all out and commit, and get the free bonuses. If you're not considering it (and don't play any of the other armies that get $pecial DLC rule$ in this book), I guess you save $60
It’s still a hefty sacrifice.
No Rhinos, Dreads, Landraiders, PBC, Daemon Engines etc. Without those, what do DG have in the way of anti-tank, for instance? Because you’ll be able to deal with infantry no problem - but big stuff might be a thorn in your side?
Yeah, we've been down this road. The first are reasonable, but it's literally just half a year until you see something on the level of "Don't take any Flyers in your Space Marine force, but you get free Transports instead."
Voss wrote: Yep, really, really. No. Obviously 'no one was ever taking those' isn't the point. But if you present a system where you can trade off optional things that are merely average to make other things better, you aren't presenting a meaningful choice. Just a buff. If you're already considering an infantry heavy DG list, you might as well go all out and commit, and get the free bonuses. If you're not considering it (and don't play any of the other armies that get $pecial DLC rule$ in this book), I guess you save $60
Um, I agree with you in general, but in this specific case, you're just wrong. Death Guard ditching their vehicles automatically means ditching their ability to bring big guns to the table, the biggest guns infantry can carry are plasma guns, blight launchers and reaper autocannons. You also can't bring Mortarion and are locked into a mediocre plague fleet. They literally expect you to kill vehicles with psychic powers and pox walkers.
To me, this limitation makes the whole thing just a joke army you run for fun. And that's actually good news - I have no reason to spend even a single cent on a book that turns my death guard into orks
edit: I was wrong, you can have Mortarion.
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Tyel wrote: From memory DE could take a fairly extensive grab bag of units and.... I forget what bonus they got. More fast attack slots maybe?
Orks "gained" being more susceptible to morale, squad leaders killing themselves and hammer of wrath if you charged 10" or more.
Yarium wrote: Yeah, we've been down this road. The first are reasonable, but it's literally just half a year until you see something on the level of "Don't take any Flyers in your Space Marine force, but you get free Transports instead."
We've gotten three books worth of this specific concept for Lord of the Rings and none have been anywhere like that.
These aren't formations.
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Tyel wrote: Don't think its 7th level overpowered given those are some real limitations.
But... its not something that should be coming out in the first year of a new edition. If GW wanted Terminus Est Assault Force to be a viable, alternative way to play DG - why not put it in the DG codex? Why do you need alternate ways to play a book that came out a few weeks ago?
Basically its a cool idea, just don't think it should have been done this way.
As for why not put it in the DG codex? To avoid other people asking why their books didn't include these things.
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the_scotsman wrote: Also, seems like the only drukhari preview we're getting is gonna be the one from yesterday, rip. I expect the remainder of this week will be 2 regiments of renown per day...though I suppose the RoR for wych cults is a drukhari preview, let us know what our day 1 dlc will be.
How are they gonna further restrict wych cults, I wonder? we have like 6 units total. No vehicles probably.
You don't get an Army of Renown for Drukhari.
as a "oh no we need to sell more books" rule system goes, I like these a lot better than 7th ed formations, and also better than the vigilus..thingies from 8th that just costed a CP and then gave you a couple relics and strats.
I'm not going to buy the book - these sorts of rules have the lifespan of soft cheese, and I've got no interest in playing the campaign mode. But I definitely don't mind playing against these rules, the benefits are fairly slight and the restrictions fairly hefty.
How the heck do the Admech benefits work though? Isn't the whole 'set to defend, hold strong' thing just the exact rule for Defensible cover? Are they counted as being in Defensible Cover if they're in their DZ or near an objective, is that the deal?
If so that's kinda a boring playstyle I guess. "here's some rules so you can sit in your DZ and never move, how fun for you and your opponent."
It seems to be telling you that if you use "Set to Defend" or "Hold Strong" as in the Defensible Cover rules, you get an additional bonus if you've taken the Mechanicus Defence Force setup.
TBH Legendary Legions are done in a much more controlled way. They are basically their own army. You can't ally them, you lose all your base faction bonuses.
In this case for example you could ally other imperium detachments with the Metallica one. Is much more open to abuse compared with LOTR Legions, even if compared with old formations is more restrictive.
And even then you have legendary legions that are "superior" ways of playing an army like Theoden's Riders vs Rohan basic list.
We don't know yet if you can still ally with these. That might be a rule they didn't show off.
It is worth mentioning that the Mechanicus one was specifically called out as being more "generic" than the Death Guard one. Any Forge World could field a Mechanicus Defence Force but not every <Plague Company> might operate like The Harbingers.
Do you really need to be told that the "do whatever you want as long as your opponent is okay with it" game mode can use whatever you want as long as your opponent is okay with it?
the_scotsman wrote: Also, seems like the only drukhari preview we're getting is gonna be the one from yesterday, rip. I expect the remainder of this week will be 2 regiments of renown per day...though I suppose the RoR for wych cults is a drukhari preview, let us know what our day 1 dlc will be.
No need to be so cynical. There will certainly be an article on Drukhari Crusade rules. The didn’t touch on that in the 7 things article.
Oh. So the drukhari stuff is literally just going to be 'we dun sliced 10% of the codex off in hopes you'd buy another book' then. We dont get to play with the new toy at all.
....
Oh fast talking monotone british maaaaan, it's time for you to read me another entire book in one take again!
LOL what a garbage trade off. Don't take any vehicles on your army in order to Deep Strike Plague Marines instead of the much better Terminators, OH and you get access to a S×3 Power Fist which is rarely relevant!
It's honestly insulting to be releasing this crap for some of the same armies you just released codexes for...in a separate, 60 dollar book. This is scraping the bottom of the barrel, even by GW's normally shameless standards.
The mechanic is also terrible and will lead to just the same terrible places it led last time they tried it.
At least we know why they removed specialist detachments with 9th: because they want to sell people a whole new set of tack-on-top-of-your-codex rules, this time with only 3 per book at $60 per book. Vigilus was too cheap and gave too much value, who knew?
Voss wrote: Yep, really, really. No. Obviously 'no one was ever taking those' isn't the point. But if you present a system where you can trade off optional things that are merely average to make other things better, you aren't presenting a meaningful choice. Just a buff.
If you're already considering an infantry heavy DG list, you might as well go all out and commit, and get the free bonuses. If you're not considering it (and don't play any of the other armies that get $pecial DLC rule$ in this book), I guess you save $60
Um, I agree with you in general, but in this specific case, you're just wrong. Death Guard ditching their vehicles automatically means ditching their ability to bring big guns to the table, the biggest guns infantry can carry are plasma guns, blight launchers and reaper autocannons. You also can't bring Mortarion and are locked into a mediocre plague fleet.
They literally expect you to kill vehicles with psychic powers and pox walkers.
To me, this limitation makes the whole thing just a joke army you run for fun. And that's actually good news - I have no reason to spend even a single cent on a book that turns my death guard into orks
edit: I was wrong, you can have Mortarion..
'It's fine because this specific one sucks' is most definitely missing the point. Sooner or later one isn't going to suck, and then the snowball starts rolling as they start writing new ones to that standard. Meanwhile they're wasting development time on joke books when they could be getting entire factions up to the bare minimum 9th edition standard. You know, rather than keeping them a wound down or with substandard non-imperial guns.
There's no good news here, just rules bloat for sake of bloat.
Yeah, it's absolutely terrible in terms of what it says about the future of the game and GW's priorities. Especially that they are pushing this junk out at higher priority than 9th edition codexes.
Yarium wrote: Yeah, we've been down this road. The first are reasonable, but it's literally just half a year until you see something on the level of "Don't take any Flyers in your Space Marine force, but you get free Transports instead."
We've gotten three books worth of this specific concept for Lord of the Rings and none have been anywhere like that.
well, the LotR rules writers usually finish the stuff for everything at once and stay on the same level instead of putting the afford into 2-3 factions because they had a crazy idea that sounds really cool than get bored make some low afford rules for the next 5 without ever testing it and write something new because they had another crazy idea that sounds really cool
knowing one thing for 40k, those writing the rules just don't want to have everything in the same level but want to get as many crazy ideas into print as possible
LOTR has a far better rules development system than 40k, judging by the output. They wouldn't be putting out supplemental $60 books full of stuff that should have been in the codexes they haven't released because they prioritized said $60 junk.
If this junk was coming out after all the 9th codexes it would still be a shameless money grab, but at least it'd feel like they had done their basic job before they started skimming off the top.
Eldarsif wrote: I think people are opening themselves for a letdown if they expect Covens to keep their 5++(or 4++ if you are Prophets). It made the choice of Drukhari Detachment very lopsided as 4++ was such a strong trait and even with 5++ Covens were out-surviving everything else in the codex.
So I fully expect the 4++ and 5++ will go.
I am betting the Haeonculus aura changed to be in line with an apothecary. So they will hand out the 6+++ now as well as be able to heal/res models. I also think that coven units stock will have +1 to the inured to suffering for the 5++
Whether or not PoF still add a further +1 is in the air. I am actually inclined to think it is still a further +1 and the other two creeds will be much stronger. Evidence being the poisoned tongue revamp.
Eldarsif wrote: I think people are opening themselves for a letdown if they expect Covens to keep their 5++(or 4++ if you are Prophets). It made the choice of Drukhari Detachment very lopsided as 4++ was such a strong trait and even with 5++ Covens were out-surviving everything else in the codex.
So I fully expect the 4++ and 5++ will go.
I am betting the Haeonculus aura changed to be in line with an apothecary. So they will hand out the 6+++ now as well as be able to heal/res models. I also think that coven units stock will have +1 to the inured to suffering for the 5++
Whether or not PoF still add a further +1 is in the air. I am actually inclined to think it is still a further +1 and the other two creeds will be much stronger. Evidence being the poisoned tongue revamp.
That could work, though I do wonder where Eldarsif got the weird idea that Covens shouldn't be tanky, thats their whole bloody point.
Eldarsif wrote: I think people are opening themselves for a letdown if they expect Covens to keep their 5++(or 4++ if you are Prophets). It made the choice of Drukhari Detachment very lopsided as 4++ was such a strong trait and even with 5++ Covens were out-surviving everything else in the codex.
So I fully expect the 4++ and 5++ will go.
I am betting the Haeonculus aura changed to be in line with an apothecary. So they will hand out the 6+++ now as well as be able to heal/res models. I also think that coven units stock will have +1 to the inured to suffering for the 5++
Whether or not PoF still add a further +1 is in the air. I am actually inclined to think it is still a further +1 and the other two creeds will be much stronger. Evidence being the poisoned tongue revamp.
That could work, though I do wonder where Eldarsif got the weird idea that Covens shouldn't be tanky, thats their whole bloody point.
I also really hope Haemonculi aren't still limited to only affecting Coven stuff with their aura.
Incidentally, if Haemonculi no longer grant +1T, I wonder if Talos will be allowed their T7 back?
God I HOPE they rework the haemonculus aura of that. I can count on...no fingers the number of times my haemonculus buffing my pain engines from T6 to the heady heights of T7 ever mattered even one time in a game.
Because nobody has S8 and S9 antitank weapons that just make that buff totally pointless....
Eldarsif wrote: I think people are opening themselves for a letdown if they expect Covens to keep their 5++(or 4++ if you are Prophets). It made the choice of Drukhari Detachment very lopsided as 4++ was such a strong trait and even with 5++ Covens were out-surviving everything else in the codex.
So I fully expect the 4++ and 5++ will go.
I am betting the Haeonculus aura changed to be in line with an apothecary. So they will hand out the 6+++ now as well as be able to heal/res models. I also think that coven units stock will have +1 to the inured to suffering for the 5++
Whether or not PoF still add a further +1 is in the air. I am actually inclined to think it is still a further +1 and the other two creeds will be much stronger. Evidence being the poisoned tongue revamp.
That could work, though I do wonder where Eldarsif got the weird idea that Covens shouldn't be tanky, thats their whole bloody point.
Units can be tanky without having invuln saves. At best I imagine Covens in general getting a +1 to their invuln saves(bringing them to the old 5++) but the 4++ I imagine is out as it was leagues above all other obsessions. GW has already burned themselves once on giving a subfaction better saves(Ossiarch Bonereapers) and they ended up with FAQ-ing it to something different.
But I'm not sure a Wrack with say T4 and a 6++ is *that* cheap. I assume the view is that if they get 3 poison attacks, they are quasi-Orks. But we wait and see.
(Also £22 for a unit that potentially costs 40 points is quite awful. Not uniquely so perhaps, but awful all the same. I've always wanted the ability to run a mono-Covens army, and maybe now's the time, but I thought this was a con 6 years ago.)
Eldarsif wrote: I think people are opening themselves for a letdown if they expect Covens to keep their 5++(or 4++ if you are Prophets). It made the choice of Drukhari Detachment very lopsided as 4++ was such a strong trait and even with 5++ Covens were out-surviving everything else in the codex.
So I fully expect the 4++ and 5++ will go.
Do you expect them to get anything to replace it, or are Covens just not meant to be used in 9th?
Yes, I am suspecting they gain a 6+++ or 5+++, or go up to T5, or stay T4 but have -1 to be wounded. With PFP going to ++ saves I expect all coven units to lose their invulnerable saves but gain defense in some other way.
the_scotsman wrote: God I HOPE they rework the haemonculus aura of that. I can count on...no fingers the number of times my haemonculus buffing my pain engines from T6 to the heady heights of T7 ever mattered even one time in a game.
Because nobody has S8 and S9 antitank weapons that just make that buff totally pointless....
Bringing triple-Tantalus up to T8 is quite annoying.
I'm reminded of one of my favorite guns in Destiny 2 when I see formations coming back in a new name. That would be the horror story, named after the gun before it called the origin story. The quote simply reads " It didn't start out scary. " That is how I fear the formations by any other name will end up. Marginally useful or weak at first, not sell books like they think they should before they come out over the top and soul crushing. I don't like this at all and I fear it'll end up a true horror story.
For who brings up LotR rules to somehow show these will be balanced ? I don't see how one goes to the other. They have shown over and over they will shamelessly bloat and money churn rules at the expense of the games health for maximum profit. They show no shame especially when they seem to love to now roll with a new edition every 3 years why should they care ? They screw it up sell lots of overly expensive short on content books and then wash it away with a new edition as they promise they learned their lesson. I was born one day but it wasn't yesterday and I know I'm not the only one who see's what they are doing here.
Tyel wrote: Things can be tanky because they are cheap.
But I'm not sure a Wrack with say T4 and a 6++ is *that* cheap. I assume the view is that if they get 3 poison attacks, they are quasi-Orks. But we wait and see.
(Also £22 for a unit that potentially costs 40 points is quite awful. Not uniquely so perhaps, but awful all the same. I've always wanted the ability to run a mono-Covens army, and maybe now's the time, but I thought this was a con 6 years ago.)
To e fair there are quite a few units in the game that are very expensive money wise compared to points. Mek Gunz is 30 pounds for a 40 point unit, and I think the Beast of Nurgle is similar.
Ultimately I can imagine 5++ to stay around(even some sort of FnP), but Prophets of Flesh 8th edition ability I am 99% sure is gone. I'd be very surprised if that stays around because if it does they can literally just wipe out every other Coven and just claim that Prophets of Flesh is the only Coven in the army.
They seem kinda fun, tbh. The Dominion campaign is 100% my favorite aspect of Necromunda, so I'm pretty pleased with the idea of my dark eldar in campaign being accumulating territory etc.
If it wasn't for all the lockdowns, I'd be playing Crusade a ton against my favourite opponents. It's a fantastic way to play enjoyable games. But since I get so few times to play right now, I'd rather keep my senses sharp and play a matched play game in a tourney-style.
Yarium wrote: If it wasn't for all the lockdowns, I'd be playing Crusade a ton against my favourite opponents. It's a fantastic way to play enjoyable games. But since I get so few times to play right now, I'd rather keep my senses sharp and play a matched play game in a tourney-style.
Same here. One of the things I am looking forward to when everyone is vaccinated is to give Crusade a proper go.
No new Dark Eldar minis? (other than a side-grade... at best)
More rules bloat coming? In $60 books?
Dark Eldar are my only 40k army left. I was waiting to see how it was looking...
Goodbye 9th edition 40k. Maybe I'll be back for 10th. Hopefully they improve the game instead of just hitting reset and making the same mistakes they've been making since 7th.
Red Viper wrote: No new Dark Eldar minis? (other than a side-grade... at best)
More rules bloat coming? In $60 books?
Dark Eldar are my only 40k army left. I was waiting to see how it was looking...
Goodbye 9th edition 40k. Maybe I'll be back for 10th. Hopefully they improve the game instead of just hitting reset and making the same mistakes they've been making since 7th.
If you were going to make that call before actually seeing the codex, then you were going to leave anyway regardless.
Red Viper wrote: No new Dark Eldar minis? (other than a side-grade... at best)
More rules bloat coming? In $60 books?
Dark Eldar are my only 40k army left. I was waiting to see how it was looking...
Goodbye 9th edition 40k. Maybe I'll be back for 10th. Hopefully they improve the game instead of just hitting reset and making the same mistakes they've been making since 7th.
If you were going to make that call before actually seeing the codex, then you were going to leave anyway regardless.
I mean, we can be pretty sure the codex isn't going to spontaneously dispense Vect models.
Yeah the codex previews haven't unveiled anything really substantial. Some minor tweaks, but no large changes. Only one new model.
At first from todays update, I thought there was going to be a new Court of the Archon box which included new sculpts for Sslyth and Lhamean but then I realized those were just kitbashes.
I think a Court of the Archon box in plastic would be a nice little purchase though. A venom, one each of the court members and multiple options to customize an Archon.
LOL have you seen the new codices? Any new Archon you get is gonna get its own static entry because it's already hard writing a singular Gravis Captain entry!
Red Viper wrote: No new Dark Eldar minis? (other than a side-grade... at best)
More rules bloat coming? In $60 books?
Dark Eldar are my only 40k army left. I was waiting to see how it was looking...
Goodbye 9th edition 40k. Maybe I'll be back for 10th. Hopefully they improve the game instead of just hitting reset and making the same mistakes they've been making since 7th.
If you were going to make that call before actually seeing the codex, then you were going to leave anyway regardless.
So you think there's more than the lelith　coming? As if not then he's accurate. No models bar that, more　rules bloat. More free rules. He didn't comment on power level. Just lack of new models and more rule bloat. Hard to believe but not all are fan of rule　bloat...
I think a Court of the Archon box in plastic would be a nice little purchase though. A venom, one each of the court members and multiple options to customize an Archon.
That doesn't happen anymore. Even Space Marine characters are regulated to individual datasheets per model, or combined lieutenant datasheets that only allow weapon options that are on an existing model. When character option lockdown even extends to space marines and their 30+ character models, dark eldar aren't getting anything customizable.
Campaing book with extra rules with maybe few rules that could be useful? It is like people have forgotten that is nothing new.
If you don't like it, don't buy. If you play them, ask opponents if it is okay to use it. Simple as that.
And there is only 4 pages of rules concerning Dark Eldar. 4. Rules we have not even seen but everyone assumes is most powerful stuff and should be in the book.
Feels like people are just being big time drama queens for sake of it.
Typical Dakka. 1/20th (or less) of the codex has been previewed and it's already the weakest 9th edition codex released so far.
I think back to the first week of previews of DG and how that was going to be weaker than SM's and Necrons. 5 months later and it can hold it's own against any codex out right now.
But the salt must flow guys. Let's keep it salty, my blood pressure is too low.
Sotahullu wrote: Campaing book with extra rules with maybe few rules that could be useful? It is like people have forgotten that is nothing new.
If you don't like it, don't buy. If you play them, ask opponents if it is okay to use it. Simple as that.
And there is only 4 pages of rules concerning Dark Eldar. 4. Rules we have not even seen but everyone assumes is most powerful stuff and should be in the book.
Feels like people are just being big time drama queens for sake of it.
I'm just calling it now the Warzone Charadon Cult of Strife rules are Ynnari oriented just to piss off people.
I expect the DE codex will be fine in terms of *power*.
The question that haunts people is whether its going to be *fun*.
If DE are getting the "we're trying to cut down special rules this edition mmmk" treatment, its going to be lame. Even if every unit can just be a very cheap brick of stats and therefore top tier/broken.
Sotahullu wrote: Campaing book with extra rules with maybe few rules that could be useful? It is like people have forgotten that is nothing new.
If you don't like it, don't buy. If you play them, ask opponents if it is okay to use it. Simple as that.
And there is only 4 pages of rules concerning Dark Eldar. 4. Rules we have not even seen but everyone assumes is most powerful stuff and should be in the book.
Feels like people are just being big time drama queens for sake of it.
Feels like you are strawmanning people, and you don't know what you are talking about.
Drukhari players are not unhappy because the Cult of Strife rules may be the bestest eva and they don't want to pay for a supplement, but because they appear to be the basic rules for the main Wych Cult that should be in the fething codex.
How do they "appear to be the basic rules for the main Wych Cult"?
We have a page count. That's all we know at the moment. Did you really expect to see three or four pages worth of Cult of Strife content in the Codex before knowing this supplemental stuff would be coming?
Kanluwen wrote: How do they "appear to be the basic rules for the main Wych Cult"?
We have a page count. That's all we know at the moment. Did you really expect to see three or four pages worth of Cult of Strife content in the Codex before knowing this supplemental stuff would be coming?
We know its not an 'army of renown', and we don't know how many of those four pages are actually rules.
Kanluwen wrote: How do they "appear to be the basic rules for the main Wych Cult"?
We have a page count. That's all we know at the moment. Did you really expect to see three or four pages worth of Cult of Strife content in the Codex before knowing this supplemental stuff would be coming?
We know its not an 'army of renown', and we don't know how many of those four pages are actually rules.
But we all know how this usually goes.
Snowflake rule, bonus Warlord trait(s), relics, page of strats, name generator, couple pieces of art, that's four pages and called 'done.'
I wouldn't be surprised if its in addition to their Obsession/Trait/Relic/Single Strat in the main codex, but its still galling to see GW selling extra power-ups this early in the cycle. (or at all, personally, but I know some people out there love the Vigilus/PA/Warzone cash-for-trash cycle)
Kanluwen wrote: How do they "appear to be the basic rules for the main Wych Cult"?
We have a page count. That's all we know at the moment. Did you really expect to see three or four pages worth of Cult of Strife content in the Codex before knowing this supplemental stuff would be coming?
We know its not an 'army of renown', and we don't know how many of those four pages are actually rules.
So, again, how do you know it's stuff cut out of the main book?
You'll 100% have a valid point if, say, Lelith's rules are only in this Charadon stuff...but it's not like Typhus was locked out of the Death Guard book for his stuff in this book.
jivardi wrote: Typical Dakka. 1/20th (or less) of the codex has been previewed and it's already the weakest 9th edition codex released so far.
I think back to the first week of previews of DG and how that was going to be weaker than SM's and Necrons. 5 months later and it can hold it's own against any codex out right now.
But the salt must flow guys. Let's keep it salty, my blood pressure is too low.
LOL we've had HOW many codices released so far? Please don't try to count the supplements as codices. You're basically saying the Death Guard codex can hold its own against 2 other codices hahahahaha
Kanluwen wrote: How do they "appear to be the basic rules for the main Wych Cult"?
We have a page count. That's all we know at the moment. Did you really expect to see three or four pages worth of Cult of Strife content in the Codex before knowing this supplemental stuff would be coming?
We know its not an 'army of renown', and we don't know how many of those four pages are actually rules.
So, again, how do you know it's stuff cut out of the main book?
You'll 100% have a valid point if, say, Lelith's rules are only in this Charadon stuff...but it's not like Typhus was locked out of the Death Guard book for his stuff in this book.
Agree completely. I wouldn't mind if it were just a reprint of what's in the codex. The difference with Typhus is that, his formation and the AdMech one are specifically listed as special formations, while the Cult of Strife isn't.
One third of players are screaming for Codex Supplements for every army. One third of players are screaming for no Codex Supplements at all. The other third shrugs and says, whatever.
So take the supplement or leave it. They are supplemental rules anyway and probably a whole lot less important than those for Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, or Deathwatch.
I'm sure the supplements in Charadon will be the typical Warlord Traits, Relics, and Stratagems that have appeared in every other Codex Supplement. They will just happen to be 4 pages within a larger book of the war zone and other factions special rules rather than a book dedicated mostly to fluff and additional datasheets for the specific faction.
Kanluwen wrote: How do they "appear to be the basic rules for the main Wych Cult"?
We have a page count. That's all we know at the moment. Did you really expect to see three or four pages worth of Cult of Strife content in the Codex before knowing this supplemental stuff would be coming?
We know its not an 'army of renown', and we don't know how many of those four pages are actually rules.
So, again, how do you know it's stuff cut out of the main book?
You'll 100% have a valid point if, say, Lelith's rules are only in this Charadon stuff...but it's not like Typhus was locked out of the Death Guard book for his stuff in this book.
Agree completely. I wouldn't mind if it were just a reprint of what's in the codex. The difference with Typhus is that, his formation and the AdMech one are specifically listed as special formations, while the Cult of Strife isn't.
You're so close!
While the "Armies of Renown" are listed as special setups, there's also rules for House Raven and Forge World Metalica--just like Cult of Strife. Typhus' forces also are effectively getting the supplement treatment too.
Not only do they get a whole heap of new Relics to choose from and their own Fester discipline of psychic powers, but also a selection of exclusive Stratagems to make use of. There’s far too many to show them all here, but surely a few can’t do any harm.
I don't foresee them pulling a Space Marines and pulling named characters out of the main book for supplemental material. You're looking at bonus relics, stratagems, and maybe some warlord traits/crusade stuff specific to Cult of Strife via this book...which means if you're hugely into Cult of Strife? You might want it. Especially since it seems like it'll explain what Lilith has been up to lately.
Kanluwen wrote: How do they "appear to be the basic rules for the main Wych Cult"?
We have a page count. That's all we know at the moment. Did you really expect to see three or four pages worth of Cult of Strife content in the Codex before knowing this supplemental stuff would be coming?
We know its not an 'army of renown', and we don't know how many of those four pages are actually rules.
So, again, how do you know it's stuff cut out of the main book?
You'll 100% have a valid point if, say, Lelith's rules are only in this Charadon stuff...but it's not like Typhus was locked out of the Death Guard book for his stuff in this book.
Agree completely. I wouldn't mind if it were just a reprint of what's in the codex. The difference with Typhus is that, his formation and the AdMech one are specifically listed as special formations, while the Cult of Strife isn't.
You're so close!
While the "Armies of Renown" are listed as special setups, there's also rules for House Raven and Forge World Metalica--just like Cult of Strife. Typhus' forces also are effectively getting the supplement treatment too.
Not only do they get a whole heap of new Relics to choose from and their own Fester discipline of psychic powers, but also a selection of exclusive Stratagems to make use of. There’s far too many to show them all here, but surely a few can’t do any harm.
I don't foresee them pulling a Space Marines and pulling named characters out of the main book for supplemental material. You're looking at bonus relics, stratagems, and maybe some warlord traits/crusade stuff specific to Cult of Strife via this book...which means if you're hugely into Cult of Strife? You might want it. Especially since it seems like it'll explain what Lilith has been up to lately.
You think non space marines will get character models for their supplaments? Ha...
They called the Metallica, Cult of Strife and House Raven, Supplements.
I assume that means you'll have the basic rules in the codex and bonus rules in the supplement. You can play any marine chapter just with the base codex. You'll have less options.
Of course I seriously doubt this three "supplements" will be like the space marines ones. Specially because it would be extremely difficult for other subfactions in those codex (In this example, other wych cults) to compete with the subfaction with a supplement.
alextroy wrote: One third of players are screaming for Codex Supplements for every army. One third of players are screaming for no Codex Supplements at all. The other third shrugs and says, whatever.
So take the supplement or leave it. They are supplemental rules anyway and probably a whole lot less important than those for Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, or Deathwatch.
I'm sure the supplements in Charadon will be the typical Warlord Traits, Relics, and Stratagems that have appeared in every other Codex Supplement. They will just happen to be 4 pages within a larger book of the war zone and other factions special rules rather than a book dedicated mostly to fluff and additional datasheets for the specific faction.
How much "less important"? Seriously, try playing any faction without their PA content against loyalists with their supplements. If this "supplement material" is on most faction's PA materials level, it'll be important.
Tyel wrote: I expect the DE codex will be fine in terms of *power*.
The question that haunts people is whether its going to be *fun*.
If DE are getting the "we're trying to cut down special rules this edition mmmk" treatment, its going to be lame. Even if every unit can just be a very cheap brick of stats and therefore top tier/broken.
If anything it feels like GW has been increasing special rules in the last few codices and I kind of expect Drukhari will get similar treatment. It's why I am disappointed there haven't been any more bigger reveals.
However, the review embargo is lifted on Saturday so we'll see some proper leaks.
Accept your $60 Day-1 DLC that has 4 pages dedicated to your army or shut up.
Great attitude there mate.
What part of "take it or leave it" means "shut up"? You either buy the product because you deem it is worth the cost or you don't. No value judgement attached to your decision except the one you put there.
"What's that? You want a codex with like maybe 2 subfactions with broken wombo-combos we never playtested? And to have to buy another, pretty expensive book just for 4 pages if you want to be able to have all of your faction rules available in-hand on release day? You want the formations that ruined the end of 7th ed, but at the start of 9th ed?"
Tabletop Titans (and I'm betting my Biden check every other batrep channel on youtube) are debuting the codex on Saturday.
So Saturday we'll get a good picture of them IN A GAME and not just "chicken little the sky is falling theory crafting" on how bad/good they are.
Because of discounts I'll be getting the Piety and Pain box for $125 USD from my LGS. That means the Drukhari are literally FREE so I'm going to pick up codex, pick up the new Drukhari starter box and add even more unpainted minis to my pile of shame.
I'm sure they will be just fine this edition. If not I'm still going to play them. Daemons aren't S tier and I still have fun with them. Daemons aren't even A tier and they still entertain me.
But to each his/her own. The next week or 2 will reveal plenty because we'll actually see batreps and reviews (and full codex leaks if you are into that sort of thing) before the codex actually ships worldwide.
"What's that? You want a codex with like maybe 2 subfactions with broken wombo-combos we never playtested? And to have to buy another, pretty expensive book just for 4 pages if you want to be able to have all of your faction rules available in-hand on release day? You want the formations that ruined the end of 7th ed, but at the start of 9th ed?"
Thanks GW.
and worst of all, we dont even get a formation despite being in the book!
Galas wrote: They called the Metallica, Cult of Strife and House Raven, Supplements.
I assume that means you'll have the basic rules in the codex and bonus rules in the supplement. You can play any marine chapter just with the base codex. You'll have less options.
Of course I seriously doubt this three "supplements" will be like the space marines ones. Specially because it would be extremely difficult for other subfactions in those codex (In this example, other wych cults) to compete with the subfaction with a supplement.
Yes you can play any marine chapter with just base codex
You will then lose horribly to all but tau...especially any other marine army will break you without breaking a sweat.
Galas wrote: They called the Metallica, Cult of Strife and House Raven, Supplements.
I assume that means you'll have the basic rules in the codex and bonus rules in the supplement. You can play any marine chapter just with the base codex. You'll have less options.
Of course I seriously doubt this three "supplements" will be like the space marines ones. Specially because it would be extremely difficult for other subfactions in those codex (In this example, other wych cults) to compete with the subfaction with a supplement.
Yes you can play any marine chapter with just base codex
You will then lose horribly to all but tau...especially any other marine army will break you without breaking a sweat.
There's difference between can and "can"
It's not like Raven Guard or White Scars are any good, right?
GW could easily say, rules from this supplement are not suggested for organized play (like they did with Vigilus in 9th) and call it a day.
That way in a normal game you'll find a way to balance them if necessary and the tournament crowd stays away from them.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: GW could easily say, rules from this supplement are not suggested for organized play (like they did with Vigilus in 9th) and call it a day.
That way in a normal game you'll find a way to balance them if necessary and the tournament crowd stays away from them.
They could, but I doubt it.
The competitive tournament crowd willing to drop $60 for 4 pages of rules that give them an edge is a non-zero part of their sales. No idea what percentage, but businesses do try to sell things to as many people as possible.
If they were just making a book for non-matched play, it would probably be under the Crusade play system.
You can use legend in matched play, you can't in events.
You have to use another set of mission and objectives during events just "because". Somehow they couldn't be part of matched play and in the rule book (this looks like a bigger offender than "hey you want to play this theme, get this" content).
Sotahullu wrote: Feels like people are just being big time drama queens for sake of it.
Perhaps it would help if I clarified that I meant the increasingly more limited and restrictive house style of sculpting models and supporting them in the rules has killed the joy of the hobby for me. A Primaris character is far harder to convert to look distinctive from all the others of its kind, and since they have far fewer options than their Firstborn counterparts, the same is true for their rules as well.
Easily over 99% of my time in the hobby is spent building and painting minis (I think I managed 2 whole games in the past 4 years) so the lack of attention given to that aspect - such as GW only releasing a single overpriced named-character sculpt alongside a Dark Eldar codex, means it's obvious this is no longer something I would like to spend money on as a pastime.
dumb_numpty wrote: Assuming it's genuine, Agents of Vect is now a 0CP strat that makes subsequent uses of your opponent's strat cost +1 CP. How the mighty have fallen.
Spoiler:
Okay, I thought this was bad at first... but the more I think about it, the more I like it. Any enemy that relies on a single crutch strat is just HAMMERED by this. Use on an opposing Transhuman Physiology and just laugh as the Marine Player weaps.
Wow that is bad, I mean it's 0cp, but it's also 1 time use. Well, at least that strat won't dictate entirely how a DE army is built for tournaments anymore lol.
It always felt like a misplay or gamble to not take any Black heart elements solely based on that strat. It also felt crappy using it to turn off other folks fun stuff. Of course GW then went and made auras like Mortys or spells the DA have, so the game still has "piss in your cheeriors" mechanics but at least its one less lol.
Galas my hero, this will be my duolingo for today! Do you have any datasheets with juicy weapon lists like scourges/wracks? Anything to make hqs more fun?
dumb_numpty wrote: Assuming it's genuine, Agents of Vect is now a 0CP strat that makes subsequent uses of your opponent's strat cost +1 CP. How the mighty have fallen.
Spoiler:
Okay, I thought this was bad at first... but the more I think about it, the more I like it. Any enemy that relies on a single crutch strat is just HAMMERED by this. Use on an opposing Transhuman Physiology and just laugh as the Marine Player weaps.
It's not going to make them weep really. Transhuman is 1cp in almost any list you see, OK so now it goes to 2cp AFTER they got it once. They also happen to be playing one of the only factions with an army wide 4+ to wound mechanic lol so I really doubt they care much.
dumb_numpty wrote: Assuming it's genuine, Agents of Vect is now a 0CP strat that makes subsequent uses of your opponent's strat cost +1 CP. How the mighty have fallen.
Spoiler:
Okay, I thought this was bad at first... but the more I think about it, the more I like it. Any enemy that relies on a single crutch strat is just HAMMERED by this. Use on an opposing Transhuman Physiology and just laugh as the Marine Player weaps.
I keep looking at "Fire Overwatch" and thinking "Boy howdy, Agents of Vect will be interesting..."
Sure, what I cant figure out is if its "I jit you two times, so I roll 2d6 and add them together to try and do 1mw" or if I roll 2 individual d6s and try to beat your ld for potentially multiple mws.
The Phantasm Grenade Launcher says that each hit you do, you roll 1d6 and if you roll over the leadership of the receiving unit it makes one mortal wound.
I don't know what the feth has less leadership than 6 in 40k with the exception of gretching. So maybe it has been misswritten in spanish (Not the first time it happens)
Galas wrote: The Phantasm Grenade Launcher says that each hit you do, you roll 1d6 and if you roll over the leadership of the receiving unit it makes one mortal wound.
I don't know what the feth has less leadership than 6 in 40k with the exception of gretching. So maybe it has been misswritten in spanish (Not the first time it happens)
Yea thats not great, however it does look like grisly trophies is a 3" aura of -2 to enemy leadership. Of course my Spanish is terrible so feel free to point and laugh
Niiai wrote: What does Gravitiso and Descubierto do on the raider?
I see Lance is S8 AP 4 D1d3+3. Disintigrator cannons are S5 AP3 D2.
How are Venoms?
Descubierto is just the open-topped rule (units inside can shoot, etc)
Gravitiso is to measure from the hull instead of the base because it's on a flight stand.
Hqs still seem fairly lackluster, curious to see the various "master X" rules. The Fixed Loadout Thingy seems to have been applied to Talos - which arm can be which thing is now fixed, haemie is locked into his loadout, but succubus and archon oddly are not. Both can take what they can take arm in their current codex.
Cronos and Talos are CORE. cronos seems pretty similar, now A4, D2 on a 6, seems to do the same "if it kills a thing in combat, heal 1 wound or resurrect 1 model in a friendly unit within 6" and the upgrade still gives an all-CORE lieutenant aura usable by all drukhari.
dumb_numpty wrote: Assuming it's genuine, Agents of Vect is now a 0CP strat that makes subsequent uses of your opponent's strat cost +1 CP. How the mighty have fallen.
Spoiler:
Okay, I thought this was bad at first... but the more I think about it, the more I like it. Any enemy that relies on a single crutch strat is just HAMMERED by this. Use on an opposing Transhuman Physiology and just laugh as the Marine Player weaps.
I keep looking at "Fire Overwatch" and thinking "Boy howdy, Agents of Vect will be interesting..."
If you make a good leadership bomb you can make you opponent spend 2cp for the dont shock rule. thats pretty nasty too
So as an educated guess, wracks are looking mighty impressive, still need to see the actual slate of course.
However, liquifiers appear to be s4 again (thank god) and set at -2 ap. Haemonculus tools also appear to be poisoned 2+
If wracks are still armed with Haemi tools and are in fact 3 attacks, and if a liquifier has that profile then honestly they will be better then the other two troop options at either of their roles IMHOlol.
Remember, everything advances and charges turn 2 forward and liquifiers are assault weapons that now have a 12" range.
Tyel wrote: Scourge look fine everyone. Stand down.
Do you have a scourge sheet? I havent got that one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Im rrally curious about many of the non- character units tbh
You are right, sorry I'm making a leap. I've just seen the points, but I guess it would always be laid down that way even if they were all 0/1 options.
Stand back up again.
the_scotsman wrote: Doubt it, I bet they have "wrack tools" and are still poison 4+
I agree thats a likely possibility, but even then they seem like they are going to have the potential to be very strong. Liquifier spam might see a return.
+1 Round for Power from Pain for all Black Heart kabal units.
In a real space raid detachment all Mercs also count as being on an extra round for power from pain.
+1 LD for all Black Heart units.
One rerroll to hit per unit with this obssession.
The relic is basically a Litenaunt aura for your Archon that works for Mercs in a real space raid detachment.
Tyel wrote: Scourge look fine everyone. Stand down.
Do you have a scourge sheet? I havent got that one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Im rrally curious about many of the non- character units tbh
You are right, sorry I'm making a leap. I've just seen the points, but I guess it would always be laid down that way even if they were all 0/1 options.
Stand back up again.
+1 Round for Power from Pain for all Black Heart kabal units.
In a real space raid detachment all Mercs also count as being on an extra round for power from pain.
+1 LD for all Black Heart units.
One rerroll to hit per unit with this obssession.
It was looking really bad until that final reroll lol.
That makes them very consistent with blasters/dark lances
+1 Round for Power from Pain for all Black Heart kabal units.
In a real space raid detachment all Mercs also count as being on an extra round for power from pain.
+1 LD for all Black Heart units.
One rerroll to hit per unit with this obssession.
It was looking really bad until that final reroll lol.
That makes them very consistent with blasters/dark lances
how is that bad, you can count the round +2 with black heart and realmspace, this means by turn 2 all your army has 5++ inv and at turn 2 incubi will make an absolute massacre
Hmm, not TOO bad for Black Heart but obviously they're less appealing with the nerf to Vect. If Flayed Skull stays the same I'm still gonna give that the best subfaction again.
2 cleavers: 2.66 unsabed wounds vs vehicles, 3.32 GEQ, 1.77 dead MEQ.
Gauntlet: 5.2 wounds vs vehicles, 2.75 GEQ (assuming 1 cleaver), 1.73 MEQ or TEQ
Flail: 3.68 GEQ
Cleaver+injector: 1.84 MEQ
Basixally flail makes GEQ go up and MEQ/Vehicles go down, injector makes MEQ go up and Vehicles down, Gauntlet makes vehicles go way up and MEQ almost equal with 3 damage attacks instead of 2, but does cost 5pts.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Hmm, not TOO bad for Black Heart but obviously they're less appealing with the nerf to Vect. If Flayed Skull stays the same I'm still gonna give that the best subfaction again.
Don't forget Poison Tongue....looked pretty tasty thus far
Because most of the army is already going to have a 5++ (possibly better) in the early rounds anyway since we already know night shields are the same. I don't really give a crap about advancing and charging kabal so it wasn't looking like it could hold a candle next to the poisoned tongue trait we already saw.
However that reroll saved it for my money at least.
Because most of the army is already going to have a 5++ (possibly better) in the early rounds anyway since we already know night shields are the same. I don't really give a crap about advancing and charging kabal so it wasn't looking like it could hold a candle next to the poisoned tongue trait we already saw.
However that reroll saved it for my money at least.
Fair points
Still, i'll absoulute try a heavy melee list with incubi and wytches and see how that turn 2 charge will perform
Also, as i understand, lelith can consolidate 6" even out of combat?
It does drop your geq output but, yeah, gauntlet has teeth. You can actually go for gauntlet+injector or gauntlet+liquifiers for a pricy talos thats good at everything.
The injector does eat an attack so injector+gauntlet is kinda a wash except vs 1w opponents where swapping a D3 attack for D3 mws is quite good
It does drop your geq output but, yeah, gauntlet has teeth. You can actually go for gauntlet+injector or gauntlet+liquifiers for a pricy talos thats good at everything.
The injector does eat an attack so injector+gauntlet is kinda a wash except vs 1w opponents where swapping a D3 attack for D3 mws is quite good
The liquifiers are a big deal, not sure you want a unit of three all armed with them but as they are MC's they can shoot in combat. Taking at least one loaded out that way covers any GEQ problems you might have.
Haywire blasters also just became D3 damage base as well, might be a sign of what will change for Harlequins whenever they get updated. That's a pretty big change since before that, Harlies basically had almost no multi-wound damage ranged weapons besides fusion pistols that they would take.
Heat lances and Haywire changing to heavy really makes things a debate.
Considering you can field HL and HB on reavers and or talos I am going to go out on a limb and say the dark lance is their best option, points depending of course since those other units don't suffer the penalty to moving and shooting and are more durable.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If anyone finds the Hellions, I'd be grateful! I am hoping they are actually a threat.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The more sheets are leaked the more units are in fact getting their own built in invulnerable saves, or have the existing ones carrying over. This definitely does make the turn 1 PfP inured to suffering a downgrade overall.
I realise its good to join the imperial overlords - but to avoid being hypocritical, I'm going to jump in and say 100 points for 4 18" S8 AP-4 D6+2 damage shots feels slightly crazy.
I guess they'll be kept slightly in check a bit by the Heavy rule - but still, 14" fly move. Going to be able to hide and blast most things.
Imateria wrote: It's incredibly dumb to see almost all weapon choices for Scourge are now Heavy with no way to counter it, at least Shredders are good.
They gained range (which is great), but lost rerolling wounds....
There is a Succubus and Haemy equivalent to the Master Archon. Haemy gains an ability to return to life like Saint Celestine, a nasty once-per-battle relic (D3 mortals on 2+, the unit loses Aura abilities and can't benefit from Auras till your next turn) and his Warlord Trait lets him ressurect Wracks, Super-Succubus consolidates at 6' and does not have to finish closer to an enemy models (which is crazy ass balls) brutal Artifact Weapon (+2 S, -4 AP, D2, wounds 6+ ignore invulnerable saves) and a Warlord Trait that allows her to switch out her normal Attacks for 3+number of enemy models 2' around her.
Bloodbraids return - as Trueborn, one unit, they have WS 2+, bonus Ld and upgraded Blade Artists (6+ to wound gain -1 AP, bloodbraids gain -3 AP), wracks also get one unit like this Haemoxytes - +1 Inv save, bigger Ld and once per phase, they ignore damage from a first failed saving throw.
So basically blade artists is a 6+ to wound (I assume in meele) gains -1 ap... a little meh.
Imateria wrote: It's incredibly dumb to see almost all weapon choices for Scourge are now Heavy with no way to counter it, at least Shredders are good.
Its a tremendous boost to their damage regardless of Heavy. And they also now have a 5++
Imateria wrote: It's incredibly dumb to see almost all weapon choices for Scourge are now Heavy with no way to counter it, at least Shredders are good.
Yeah, I'm curious to see how this plays out.
If the heavy weapons become the exclusive domain of units that don't take the penalty
Or
People let themselves get trapped into playing gun line with a glass cannon infantry army
Or
People decide to try to soak the hit penalty and play DE 'properly'
I'm leaning towards a lot of people going for option #1. The psychology of avoiding penalties is hard to resist.
There is a Succubus and Haemy equivalent to the Master Archon. Haemy gains an ability to return to life like Saint Celestine, a nasty once-per-battle relic (D3 mortals on 2+, the unit loses Aura abilities and can't benefit from Auras till your next turn) and his Warlord Trait lets him ressurect Wracks, Super-Succubus consolidates at 6' and does not have to finish closer to an enemy models (which is crazy ass balls) brutal Artifact Weapon (+2 S, -4 AP, D2, wounds 6+ ignore invulnerable saves) and a Warlord Trait that allows her to switch out her normal Attacks for 3+number of enemy models 2' around her.
Bloodbraids return - as Trueborn, one unit, they have WS 2+, bonus Ld and upgraded Blade Artists (6+ to wound gain -1 AP, bloodbraids gain -3 AP), wracks also get one unit like this Haemoxytes - +1 Inv save, bigger Ld and once per phase, they ignore damage from a first failed saving throw.
Well and I thought that Master Archon was scary...
And also, I gues Blade Artist is simply just -1 AP if you roll 6 to wound then (with few exceptions).
Tyel wrote: I realise its good to join the imperial overlords - but to avoid being hypocritical, I'm going to jump in and say 100 points for 4 18" S8 AP-4 D6+2 damage shots feels slightly crazy.
I guess they'll be kept slightly in check a bit by the Heavy rule - but still, 14" fly move. Going to be able to hide and blast most things.
T3 with a 4+ and 1 wound. You basically MUST hide them either in reserve or behind LoSB terrain, meaning they are going to be hitting on a 4+ with no aura buffs. It's not nearly as efficient as it looks at first glance.
I assume it's Eradicators your comparing them to. Eradicators are absurd because they shoot twice, with any and all benefits you can apply via traits or auras with somehow more range and then afterwards your looking at T5 3+ 3 wound chonky boys that an apothecary can res/heal.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Blade artists seems really strong on an army with basic infantry that has 3 attacks hitting on 2's lol. Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't that an obsession trait from rise of the phoenix? I mean, just gaining that as another faction bonus is pretty solid.
TBH Blade Artists sees pretty weak compared with other faction rules like Angels of Death, Ere we go, mob rule and dakkadakka, Acts of Faith, Res Protocols and Living Metal, etc... (But even worse than weak, boring)
That doesnt mean that the army won't play well. Death Guard have basically no subfaction trait and the anti-soup Necron bonus is pretty lackluster and as armies they work just fine.
There is a Succubus and Haemy equivalent to the Master Archon. Haemy gains an ability to return to life like Saint Celestine, a nasty once-per-battle relic (D3 mortals on 2+, the unit loses Aura abilities and can't benefit from Auras till your next turn) and his Warlord Trait lets him ressurect Wracks, Super-Succubus consolidates at 6' and does not have to finish closer to an enemy models (which is crazy ass balls) brutal Artifact Weapon (+2 S, -4 AP, D2, wounds 6+ ignore invulnerable saves) and a Warlord Trait that allows her to switch out her normal Attacks for 3+number of enemy models 2' around her.
Bloodbraids return - as Trueborn, one unit, they have WS 2+, bonus Ld and upgraded Blade Artists (6+ to wound gain -1 AP, bloodbraids gain -3 AP), wracks also get one unit like this Haemoxytes - +1 Inv save, bigger Ld and once per phase, they ignore damage from a first failed saving throw.
So basically blade artists is a 6+ to wound (I assume in meele) gains -1 ap... a little meh.
The entire idea of a haemi power draining a chief apothecary at the start of the phase, denying him his license to practice medicine gives me immense joy. It's literally one ancient evil surgeon totally owing another armies surgeon.
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Galas wrote: TBH Blade Artists sees pretty weak compared with other faction rules like Angels of Death, Ere we go, mob rule and dakkadakka, Acts of Faith, Res Protocols and Living Metal, etc... (But even worse than weak, boring)
That doesnt mean that the army won't play well. Death Guard have basically no subfaction trait and the anti-soup Necron bonus is pretty lackluster and as armies they work just fine.
Dark eldar get so many abilities though. Foks need to remember Power from Pain was always an additional bonus to the armies obsessions for example. Admech are in a similar boat with canticles. I think folks expecting even more were expecting a bit much, but in the end there you have it, yet another bonus sprinkled on top for good measure. I am actual happy it's boring since it's easy to implement. My necrons have to deal with preprogramming and even after that you have to remember to pick 1 of 2 options and sometimes both. It's incredibly clunky and silly. Sometimes more interesting really does just mean more complex, I'll take simple any day.
Galas wrote: TBH Blade Artists sees pretty weak compared with other faction rules like Angels of Death, Ere we go, mob rule and dakkadakka, Acts of Faith, Res Protocols and Living Metal, etc... (But even worse than weak, boring)
That doesnt mean that the army won't play well. Death Guard have basically no subfaction trait and the anti-soup Necron bonus is pretty lackluster and as armies they work just fine.
Hey galas, could you tell us the Subfaction rules since alongside the more specific things (Strats/WT/Relics) we almost have all the datasheets?
So Blade Artisans is just a wet turd. Glad we traded ally-independent PfP for that pigswill.
Incidentally, given that vehicles have apparently kept their invulnerable saves and Scourges have actually gained better invulnerable save . . . what's the point of having them on our PfP table? At the very least, the fething 6++ just seems like an insult. Might as well start the table at turn 2 and be honest about it.
There is a Succubus and Haemy equivalent to the Master Archon. Haemy gains an ability to return to life like Saint Celestine, a nasty once-per-battle relic (D3 mortals on 2+, the unit loses Aura abilities and can't benefit from Auras till your next turn) and his Warlord Trait lets him ressurect Wracks, Super-Succubus consolidates at 6' and does not have to finish closer to an enemy models (which is crazy ass balls) brutal Artifact Weapon (+2 S, -4 AP, D2, wounds 6+ ignore invulnerable saves) and a Warlord Trait that allows her to switch out her normal Attacks for 3+number of enemy models 2' around her.
Master Haemonculus sounds pretty nice. If nothing else, potentially resurrecting once per battle is a really cool ability.
Seems like the Archon really drew the short straw when it comes to Master upgrades. And even as a "Master" he's still stuck with the godawful Shadowfield, because heaven forbid GW finally ditch that stupid, fething rule.
But hey, Archons are just Ork Warbosses at this point so I guess them using completely unreliable and outdated tech makes perfect sense.
Enough of my stuff is AP-, AP-1 or AP-2 currently for me to think Blade Artists is not a totally useless rule. TBF tho I do play mostly wych cults, if your drukhari are venomspam warriors yeah it's super pointless.
The 6++ definitely seems extremely lackluster, so much of our army already pays for invulnerable saves. Like SO MUCH - assuming Inured from Pain is still an invuln (which the rules for the super-wracks seems to imply) literally the only units that don't have at least a 6++ are:
-Kabalites
-Courts of the Archon models
-Incubi
-Hellions
-Reavers
-Beastmasters
-Lhameans
That's....that's all I can think of. In the whole codex.
Incidentally, given that vehicles have apparently kept their invulnerable saves and Scourges have actually gained better invulnerable save . . . what's the point of having them on our PfP table? At the very least, the fething 6++ just seems like an insult. Might as well start the table at turn 2 and be honest about it.
Our vehicle invul saves are just vs ranged attacks, the PfP table invul protects them in close combat, particularly from turn 3 onwards, when I assume GW expects they will be stuck in a melee. This fits with the close combat boost that has been given to the vehicles, like +3 attacks from chain snares.
new pfp makes a lot more sense if Inured is not a redundant invuln save anymore. I was kind of hoping that the 4++ and -1 to hit was the new Wych Dodge, but it seems that's only Lelith, so Wyches will probably retain their current "4++ if in combat" and just either lose the 6++ or still have it but it only matters if you don't have PFP.
oh, I just noticed the Cronos actually got one more buff: its ranged weaponry got upped from the memetastic Strength 3 they were before to Strength 5, as well as being D2 when they roll a 6 instead of dd3.
Still a joke, even if they get that WHITE HOT SYNERGY with the blade artists rule. Tentacle artists, wooglewooglewoogle!
the_scotsman wrote: I was kind of hoping that the 4++ and -1 to hit was the new Wych Dodge
I was hoping it was the new Shadowfield.
The best thing about the Archon now is the fact that his aura affects INCUBI so when you take him as a mandatory 2nd HQ alongside drazar he can run alongside him yelling NOTICE ME SEMPAI
As he makes 5 S3 attacks in melee and drazar pumps out like 12 S20 AP-6 D85 melee attacks with +1 to wound
The best thing about the Archon now is the fact that his aura affects INCUBI so when you take him as a mandatory 2nd HQ alongside drazar he can run alongside him yelling NOTICE ME SEMPAI
As he makes 5 S3 attacks in melee and drazar pumps out like 12 S20 AP-6 D85 melee attacks with +1 to wound
Seriously, what was the point of this Huskblade nerf?
I could maybe understand it if they wanted to move the Archon away from a melee role (though it would still seem wholly unnecessary), except that the only thing the Master Archon does is fight twice 1/battle.
Mr Morden wrote: I love the Shadowfield - have done since it came in
Well I guess you're in luck, since it hasn't bloody well changed since it came in.
It existed in a time when models were lucky to have even 5++ saves, and many only got those in lieu of any armour.
Nowadays, invulnerable saves of 4++ (or better) are everywhere - even in our own army.
And the Archon is still stuck with the exact same piece of garbage he's had since 3rd.
Also, I just personally hate the damn thing. I don't like it mechanically (it feels completely outdated, almost as if it was lazily copy-pasted from an older edition). I don't like how it feels (either it's unfun for my opponent or it's unfun for me - there's no middle-ground.), and I hate the fluff (how do Archons survive this long relying on this garbage for protection?).
Mr Morden wrote: I love the Shadowfield - have done since it came in
Lots of interesting and powerful stuff so far - have to see if anything is op!
The shadowfield is fine, it seems worse to folks but it's really more an issue with the creeping lethality of the game. The volume of attacks is incredible on so many things which makes the SF seem unreliable. I remember when twin assault canon razorbacks and annihilation barges were the insane volume units with there whopping 4 shots rerolling misses lol. Compare that the the 12 and 10 now.
I'll personally be taking drazhar instead of an arhcon 9/10 games. No need for a second HQ, and even with his aura affecting incubi, I'd rather spend his points on more incubi lol. I honestly wish they went a bit weird with the archon, make him almost worse in combat then now (if thats possible) and really lean into him as a force multiplier and tactician. Now he's easily the worst HQ. That said, maybe a strat, WLT or relic will pull him from the fire but in the past it already hurt giving up those things elsewhere just to make him not suck.
So far it's looking like a sidegrade to me. Sure stuff on a whole is a bit more lethal, but then again the game creep has required that just to stay level with the game. I am a bit disappointed with certain things sucking still. Archite glave, Casket of Flensing, Cronos but i will consider it a win if hellions and beasts improved.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Imateria wrote: I'll just stick to the Venom Blade, it's free and AP-1 now.
My exact thoughts. Maybe there is a sweet venom blade relic for poison tongue instead of the pistol. But either way, 2+ to wound with -1 and a truck load of attacks is probably mathematically close to the husk blade which is more expensive and gives you a false sense of the upward potential.
No interest in master archon? You could take a 20 man warrior put it in the webway and deep strike it with 2 dark lances and 2 blasters. Hitting on 2's that will hit pretty hard as trueborn.
I remember when the shadowfield was an optional upgrade that cost points. When I learned it was made a baseline ability I was pleased they cut out the middle man.
Xenomancers wrote: No interest in master archon? You could take a 20 man warrior put it in the webway and deep strike it with 2 dark lances and 2 blasters. Hitting on 2's that will hit pretty hard as trueborn.
Xenomancers wrote: No interest in master archon? You could take a 20 man warrior put it in the webway and deep strike it with 2 dark lances and 2 blasters. Hitting on 2's that will hit pretty hard as trueborn.
I guess you'll say its only one phase - but potentially 14 attacks hitting on 2s with AP-3, 3 damage, seems good. Okay only S4 but if say the warlord trait that lets you reroll all wounds (or something similar) survived the jump that's less of an issue.
Drazhar I guess can to an extent do this every turn he charges - but then he's 135 points, compared to 70+X. Assuming the X is 15-25 or so, I think its a reasonable deal.
Xenomancers wrote: No interest in master archon? You could take a 20 man warrior put it in the webway and deep strike it with 2 dark lances and 2 blasters. Hitting on 2's that will hit pretty hard as trueborn.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I remember when the shadowfield was an optional upgrade that cost points. When I learned it was made a baseline ability I was pleased they cut out the middle man.
I guess you'll say its only one phase - but potentially 14 attacks hitting on 2s with AP-3, 3 damage, seems good. Okay only S4 but if say the warlord trait that lets you reroll all wounds (or something similar) survived the jump that's less of an issue.
Drazhar I guess can to an extent do this every turn he charges - but then he's 135 points, compared to 70+X. Assuming the X is 15-25 or so, I think its a reasonable deal.
At that point it feels like you have 2 characters trying to do the same thing and one of them is just vastly superior at it.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I remember when the shadowfield was an optional upgrade that cost points. When I learned it was made a baseline ability I was pleased they cut out the middle man.
I remember when Archons actually had a choice of wargear - like the option to take a Clone Field for a regular 4++ instead.
Red Corsair wrote: Which is the more annoyng issue for me. I am less annoyed by his lack of killiness and more so his flat aura.
I want the archon to have the Callidus ability to affect the enemies strats for example.
His underworld network and political intrigue should have been the focus.
Agreed. Unfortunately, Archons are just Warbosses now. "We hit things in melee, except we suck at it."
Xenomancers wrote: No interest in master archon? You could take a 20 man warrior put it in the webway and deep strike it with 2 dark lances and 2 blasters. Hitting on 2's that will hit pretty hard as trueborn.
'Trueborn' are hard-capped at 10.
Shame. So they cap the unit size but you lose the old trueborn weapons allowance? like...why? Just give us old trueborn FFS.
Imateria wrote: At that point it feels like you have 2 characters trying to do the same thing and one of them is just vastly superior at it.
I see what you are saying but I think Drazhar will still make it into lists.
More seriously I'm not sure that's a bad thing - depending on how builds end up looking I guess. If something's efficient for its points, its rare for taking more of it to be a bad idea.
Be interesting to see how both of them get on charging into a brick of DG/DA terminators.
Denegaar wrote: Maybe is not enough, but Cronos got way better. The ability looks improved now that it can ressurrect models, maybe I pick one
Eh I don't think for the price point it works. The main reasoning for the Apothecary working is two-fold:
1. He's a character and can hide
2. Marines have a lot more expensive models they can resurrect
What's the most expensive model a Chronos can bring back? As well, he's a monster and easily targeted.
Huh, if points are the same then Kabalite Warriors look pretty good. Compare them to Skitarii Rangers (which are admittedly not good right now) and they are strictly better or equal in every aspect AND cheaper. (you can debate superiority of splinter rifle vs galvanic rifle)
Or am I remembering the points wrong? Skitarii Rangers at 9 and Kabalite Warriors at 8, correct?
Sorry should phrase that differently. HQs, Troops, and Elites don't look to have point changes ( aside from maybe a couple weapons ).
Ok it looks like everything is the same points.
Bloodbrides - as Trueborn, one unit, they have WS 2+, bonus Ld and upgraded Blade Artists (6+ to wound gain -1 AP, Bloodbrides gain -3 AP), wracks also get one unit like this Haemoxytes - +1 Inv save, bigger Ld and once per phase, they ignore damage from a first failed saving throw.
Denegaar wrote: Maybe is not enough, but Cronos got way better. The ability looks improved now that it can ressurrect models, maybe I pick one
Eh I don't think for the price point it works. The main reasoning for the Apothecary working is two-fold:
1. He's a character and can hide
2. Marines have a lot more expensive models they can resurrect
What's the most expensive model a Chronos can bring back? As well, he's a monster and easily targeted.
My first thought was resurecting grotesques. That would be strong, but the cronos needs to actually kill things to use that ability
I'm glad to see both Incubi and Drazhar are still murder machines, Drazhar in particular is pretty crazy keeping his killing ability while also getting buffs to his survivability. Assuming he's a template for future rules for Phoenix Lords, we can assume they will also get 4+ invuln. base and a -1D rule, followed by an aura that buffs their corresponding aspect and a specific bespoke rule that's tied to them only.
Splinter Rack = always double tap
Cronos buffs characters and Core units with rerolls of 1s to wound and also gets Blade Artist
Hellions can now charge after a fall back
Vect is awesome
Lelith is awesome
Splinter Rack = always double tap
Cronos buffs characters and Core units with rerolls of 1s to wound and also gets Blade Artist
Hellions can now charge after a fall back
Vect is awesome
Lelith is awesome
Yeah, not to dampen enthusiasm, but Cronos and Hellions could already do that.
Unless the Cronos effects shooting as well? My Spanish isn't remotely good enough, and... well, I guess google translate is right there.
Be interesting to see if raider spam becomes preferred over venoms. Sort of feeling Dissies have been really overnerfed. Still okay I guess on base 2 wound MEQ - but its becoming a really specialised where efficiency falls off a cliff if you target something softer or tougher than that.
10 Incubi average 12 dead MEQ on the charge, and with their Tormentors rule they'll be scary for anything else to charge. Best to feed them bolters. Hellions got Hit and Run? Before the unit the rule was originally made for? Grrrr.
Tyel wrote: Yeah, not to dampen enthusiasm, but Cronos and Hellions could already do that.
Unless the Cronos effects shooting as well? My Spanish isn't remotely good enough, and... well, I guess google translate is right there.
Be interesting to see if raider spam becomes preferred over venoms. Sort of feeling Dissies have been really overnerfed. Still okay I guess on base 2 wound MEQ - but its becoming a really specialised where efficiency falls off a cliff if you target something softer or tougher than that.
If the Cronos needs to kill something in combat then thats OK, it's never going to happen anyway.
It doesn't work like that.
The chronos restores one wound to a nearby unit for each model it kills in melee. If the unit has no wounds but models lost, it can restore a model with a single wound left.
From facebook. Dude is legit, he posted a picture with himself and the book.
Due to character limits and mess in the comments, I compiled all the info collected into this post.
Before you ask more, read the whole thing - the answer might have already been provided. I will post no photos nor points due to trade agreements, so do not ask about them.
Straight from the top: I have just returned to 9th edition and have not played DE, so I can't gauge if models are better or is the book is going to be competetive. It looks nice and fun, that's for sure. There is a Succubus and Haemy equivalent to the Master Archon. Haemy gains an ability to return to life like Saint Celestine, a nasty once-per-battle relic (D3 mortals on 2+, the unit loses Aura abilities and can't benefit from Auras till your next turn) and his Warlord Trait lets him ressurect Wracks, Super-Succubus consolidates at 6' and does not have to finish closer to an enemy models (which is crazy ass balls) brutal Artifact Weapon (+2 S, -4 AP, D2, wounds 6+ ignore invulnerable saves) and a Warlord Trait that allows her to switch out her normal Attacks for 3+number of enemy models 2' around her.
All leaders gained an aura - Archon now buffs Kabal Core and Incubi, giving rerolls of 1s to hit, succubus gives rerolls of 1s to wound for Core Wych Cult, Haemy buffs Core Covens with +1 Toughness and now can geal Grots and coven Monsters.
Bloodbraids return - as Trueborn, one unit, they have WS 2+, bonus Ld and upgraded Blade Artists (6+ to wound gain -1 AP, bloodbraids gain -3 AP), wracks also get one unit like this Haemoxytes - +1 Inv save, bigger Ld and once per phase, they ignore damage from a first failed saving throw.
Lelith has Blade Artists (like all wyches), rerolls hits and wounds against Characters, gets a succubus buff Aura (so basically now named and non-named Characters have an interchangable buff aura, which is awesome), has 4+ inv with -1 to hit when she is hit in CC, sghe consolidates +3' and does not have to consolidate to the nearest enemy and she has No Escape, so enemy units can't escape unless they pass a Ld test.
Drazhar gains Blade Artists (6s to wound gain -1 AP, so he has AP-4 on 6s), he can fight twice EACH FIGHT PHASE. He gets -1 Damage to a minimum of 1 (both shooting and melee), has 4+ inv, has tormentors and allows incubi to reroll 1s to wound.
Urien deals 1 mortal on 6+ to each enemy in Engagment Range at the start of Fight, he ressurects once per battle like Celestine, halves the damage he takes (to a minimum of one), buffs toughness like a normal Haemy, but also buffs Strength and Ld by 1 for covens, so he makes stuff really punchy.
HO BOY, Blade Artists are an unviersal army rule now! Incubi, Mandrakes, basically anything Drukhari has it now. WIth luck, even Kabalites can now punch much tougher stuff.
Incubi also have tormentors like Drazhar, so no escape from them with a failed Ld test. If klaivex is alive, 6s to wound deal +1 Damage, Wracks still have nots of weapon options on the Acothyst, Wyches seem to be better - Blade Dancers give them a much needed punch and their No Escape rule gives enemies -1 to Ld roll for each Shardnet and Impaler in the unit. Kabalites seem unchanged mostly, but Phantasm launchers now cause Mortal Wounds on hits - if you hit, roll a 2d6 and it deals a mortal wound if you rolled over their Ld. Mandrakes are hit on -1 and once per battle, you can relocate them and set them up in the next turn 9' away form the enemy. Grots have basic T5 now and the whole unit can have Liquifiers.
Reavers look to be mostly unchanged, hellions can now charge after a fall back, scourges are also mostly the same. Talosi and Cronosi have Power from Pain and Blade Artists too, they now can Explode. Cronos buffs characters and Core units with rerolls of 1s to wound. If he kills a model in melee, he can heal Core models or return lost models to the unit, if it's a 1 wound squad. Ravagers have Night Shields, so does Raider, bigger transport capacity confirmed, Spilnter Racks now makes unit inside treat shoots from Rapid Fire as if they were in half range (holy crap), Venom has a Flickerfield, which is a Night Shield but also reduces Hits by -1. The fliers also have Night Shields.
No Vect XD, here are point changes (only up and down, no numbers, trade agreements):
Archon - few points cheaper,
Reavers are cheaper,
Venoms cheaper,
not much has changed here it seems, but lot of stuff is buffed, so basically no upping prices despite units and models gaining new abilities.
Obsessions:
Black Heart - treat PfP as one higher, if you have an Archon, Mercenaries benefit from it too, +1 Ld, reroll 1 failed hit in shooting/fighting
War Trait: Roll a 6s when op uses a Stratagem. On a 6 you gain a Command Point.
Relic - reroll 1s to wound for Core units around the bearer, if the unit is a Realspace Raider (mixed Detachment) it also benefits Mercenaries.
Agents of Vect - use it once per battle after a Stratagem of your opp - raise it's cost by 1 till the end of battle. Does not work on Command Reroll.
Flayed Skull - Flyers and units in transports ignore Light Cover, Vehicles move +2'
War tr: +1 S and Attacks for the warlord.
Relic - 4+ Inv for the bearer
Stratagem - select a unit from the kabal, shoot at units with fly at +1, +2 if it's an Aircraft.
Obsidian Rose - +6 to range of Heavy, Assult, Rapid Fire weapons (no relics), re-roll one failed wound when shooting/fighting (Triple Dark Lance Ravagers are moist now)
War Trait - +1 S for bearer's Weapons (S5 Power Sword, S9 Blast Pistol on the Archon lol)
Relic - 3+ armor, reduce enemy hits in melee by -1
Stratagem - you can use it when any models run with an attrition test - they can shoot once more before being removed (or hit if they are in engagement)
Custom Obsessions (pick 2, all-consuming count as 2):
Dark Mirth - enemies 12' within models with this are dealt a mortal on 5+ if they move, advance, fall back or charge.
Deadly Deceivers (all-cons) - units can shoot after a fall back, but with -1 to hit.
Disdain for Lesser Beings - +1 to Combat Attrition test by this models
Merciless Razorkin - 6s to hit with splinter weapons are counted as 2 hits
Torturous Efficency - 6s to wound in shooting are treated with additional -1 AP Mobile Raiders - +2 movement for Fly models
Soul Bound - Ignore Mortal Wounds on 5+
Toxin Crafters (all-con) - Re-roll 1s for poison weapons. 6s to hit cause poison weapons to be 2+ to wound.
Twisted Hunters - +1 Attacks against characters
Webway Raiders - Reduce CP cost for Webway Portal by 1 if it's used on that unit.
Wyches:
Cult of Strife - if the unit is in Engage at the begging of the fight phase, they can fight first
If a unit charges a unit with no models from your army in engage, add +1 to charge
War trait - 6s to hit score 3 hits instead of 1
Relic - Roll d6 at the start of each battle round. Gain combat drugs associated with that roll. It is cumulative!
Stratagem - once per battle round, you may use this strat. One unit can either shoot or fight again this phase.
Cursed Blade - +1 S for all models with this obsession, saving throw of 6 is a mortal wound for the attacker after he finished all his attacks.
War trait - saving throw of 4+, instead of 6.
Relic - if the bearer is killed by a melee attack, on 2+ the attacker take D3+3 Mortal Wounds.
Stratagem - use on a charged unit of wyches. They can fire Overwatch beofre the charge roll is made. Up to five models with plasma grendes can make attacks with them and they are treated as Poison 2+.
Red Grief - re-roll charges, +2 advance rolls
War trait - ignore wound rolls of 1-3 in melee
Relic - replace archite glaive, +2 S, ap -3, D 3
Strat - use it after a unit finished it attacks but before consolidation. They can embark a transport that is within 6' of them, even if they disembarked this turn. Holy crap.
Custom Cults:
Acrobatic Display - you can consolidate horizontaly over other models and terrain. (can't finish on another model)
Art of Pain - +1 PfP if within engagement
Berserk Fugue (all-con) - if charged, charging or heroic inter, 6s to hit are treated as 2 hits. Ignore Mortals on 5+.
Precise Killers - Blade Artists work on 5+
Slashing Impact - each time a model finish a charge, you can select a non-vehicle unit within Engage, on a 6 it gets a Mortal.
Stimulant Innovators - once per battle, roll a D3 - all models with Combat Drugs gain additional Drugs from the roll till the end of turn.
Test of Skill - +1 to wound against monsters and vehicles
Trophy Takers - if a Morale roll is caused by a melee attack from this model, opp rolls two 6s and discards the lower one.
Agile Hunters (all-con) - +1 to hit against Fly units
+1 to movement, if the model has Hypex.
Covens:
Prophets of Flesh: All characters, monsters and Grots regenerate 1 wound at the start of your Command
Units with this obs ignore rolls of 1-3 to wound unless attack is S8 or higher.
War trait: Chose one - +1 T and W or +1 Move and Attacks
Relic - enemies cannot fire overwatch, at the start of the Fight, chose one unit 3' from this model. It fights after all of your units.
Stratagem - Pick a coven infantry unit 6' from a haemy, it rerolls to hit. costs 2 for grots
Dark Creed - -1 Ld and -1 Combat Attrition rolls 6' from models. +1 Attack if attacking a unit with a lower Ld.
War Trait - pick a unit 9' from your warlord at the end of your movement. Roll a 3d6, if you rolled higher that it's Ld, it can't preform Actions and loses Obj sec
Relic - replaces stinger pistol. Pistol 3, S2 AP -3 D 1, 2+ poison, ignores invuls
Stratagem - when shooting, ignore Look out, Sir! 3 CP for Talos
Coven of Twelve - melee attacks gain additional -1 AP (lol, -2 AP basic with Blade Artists), models can perform actions in can still shoot
Warlord Trait - -1 Damage to a minimum of one
Relic - replaces haemy tools, AP -2, D3 damage, Poison 2+, always deals 3 D to characters
Strat - select a non-vehicle, non-monster character after consolidation with a haemy. 2-5 it takes D3 Mortals, D3+3 on 6.
Custom obsessions:
Artists of Flesh (all-con) - reduce damage (expect vehicles) received by 1 (to a min. of 1)
Dark Harvest - if a unit finishes a charge, pick a non-vehicle in engage, on 4+, it takes a mortal.
Dark Technomancers (all-con) - when you shoot, you can choose to enhance any or all ranged weapons. They deal +1 D and wound on +1 and can't be re-rolled. Rolls to wound of 1 deal 1 mortal, D3 to Monsters and Vehicles.
Experimental Creations - +1 S.
Hungry for Felsh - re-roll charges.
Master of Mutagens - hit rolls of 6 with posion weapons against non-vehicle, non-titan units automatically wound.
Master Torturer - reduce cost of Torturer's Craft by 1.
Obsessive Collectors - if an enemy unit is destroyed in melee, the model can regenerate d3 wounds or d3 models in case of Wracks.
Enhanced Sensory Organs - Ignore Light and Heavy Cover.
Splinterblades - melee hits of 6 are counted as 2.
Custom traits:
Kabal
Hatred Eternal - you can re-roll hit roll and wound roll whenever you attack. (it's worded weirdly, but I think it applies once per hit and once per wound)
Soul Thirst - +1 attack, once per turn regain 1 wound if an enemy model is destroyed 6' around the lord.
Ancient Evil - at the start of the Fight phase, pick one enemy unit in engage. It fights after all your models.
Wych
Quicksilver fighter - +2 attacks
Stimm Addict - roll two more dice for los drogos, ignore 6s and effects already active. Warlord benefits from all rolled drugs.
Precision Blows - this is crazy good, hit rolls of 6 deal MORTAL WOUNDS equal to weapon damage and the attack sequence ends.
Covens
Master Regenerist - Regain 3 wounds instead of D3 with Fleshcraft.
Master nemesine - +1 wound rolls on attacks.
Master Artisan - +1 T and +1 W
Relics:
Parasite's Kiss - Pistol 3 S2 AP -2 D 2, Poison 2+, if a model is destroyed by an attack, regain 1 lost wound
Helm of Spite - in psychic phase, bearer can deny the witch. If he succeeds, the caster is hit with Perils.
Nightmare Doll - haemy only, FNP 4+
Djinn Blade - +1 S, AP -3 D 3, +2 Attacks when fighting with this weapon. At the end of the Fight phase, roll a 6 -on 1, take a mortal
Animus Vitae - 6' range, one per battle. If it hits, the unit takes D3 mortals. If 11+ models, D3+3. All your models have +1 PFP till the end of turn.
Triptych Whip - Ap -3, D 2, Poison 2+, +3 attacks
(To clarify - I don't know the referenced guy on Facebook, so please don't ask me to ask him stuff. )
Splinter Rack = always double tap
Cronos buffs characters and Core units with rerolls of 1s to wound and also gets Blade Artist
Hellions can now charge after a fall back
Vect is awesome
Lelith is awesome
Are you trying to make memes?
Duuude.
Vect on transhuman.
Lelith can kill a model, consolidate out of combat, and then go back in at the end of the phase, and consolidate away again. That's effin awesome.
What does this do? Attacker's rules already take priority so if you have poison that wounds on 3+ Transhuman does nothing. I guess if you're shooting heatlances at a target or something?
What does this do? Attacker's rules already take priority so if you have poison that wounds on 3+ Transhuman does nothing. I guess if you're shooting heatlances at a target or something?
It makes Transhuman cost 2/3cp for the rest of the game.
What does this do? Attacker's rules already take priority so if you have poison that wounds on 3+ Transhuman does nothing. I guess if you're shooting heatlances at a target or something?
It makes Transhuman cost 2/3cp for the rest of the game.
Right, I get that, but what do Dark Eldar do that is going to make a Space Marine do Transhuman, besides Heat lance scourges? Almost everything seems to be poisoned weapons, which ignore Transhuman.
What does this do? Attacker's rules already take priority so if you have poison that wounds on 3+ Transhuman does nothing. I guess if you're shooting heatlances at a target or something?
It makes Transhuman cost 2/3cp for the rest of the game.
Right, I get that, but what do Dark Eldar do that is going to make a Space Marine do Transhuman, besides Heat lance scourges? Almost everything seems to be poisoned weapons, which ignore Transhuman.
Triple Lance ravager that gets a reroll to wound and completely ices Gravis.
Doesn't have to be Transhuman. Use it on their most used strat. Doesn't work on selfless healer unfortunately.
Rihgu wrote: Right, I get that, but what do Dark Eldar do that is going to make a Space Marine do Transhuman, besides Heat lance scourges? Almost everything seems to be poisoned weapons, which ignore Transhuman.
Brick of Incubi hitting at S5?
Cynically I think its coming up because its an example of a stratagem that can be spammed throughout a game.
Rihgu wrote: Right, I get that, but what do Dark Eldar do that is going to make a Space Marine do Transhuman, besides Heat lance scourges? Almost everything seems to be poisoned weapons, which ignore Transhuman.
Brick of Incubi hitting at S5?
Cynically I think its coming up because its an example of a stratagem that can be spammed throughout a game.
I'm not immediately leaping on too many others.
Veterans of the Long War/Endless Cacaphony would really hurt CSM in general. Depending on the build, Daemonforge. I'm not super familiar with codices beyond that. When I play Sisters I feel like I use the stratagem to burn Miracle Dice to improve a save roll a lot (lots of 1s on Miracle Dice for me!), but I don't know if this is "optimal" play.
I think Kanluwen posted about Overwatch... that's a pretty tasty one to use it on.
Green Wing Plasma Inceptors love Relics of the Dark Age strat. Making it cost 1 more CP isn't bad as it's used every turn that the Inceptors are on the board, which given 3 wounds and 3+ save is usually a few turns at least.
Rihgu wrote: Right, I get that, but what do Dark Eldar do that is going to make a Space Marine do Transhuman, besides Heat lance scourges? Almost everything seems to be poisoned weapons, which ignore Transhuman.
Brick of Incubi hitting at S5?
Cynically I think its coming up because its an example of a stratagem that can be spammed throughout a game.
I'm not immediately leaping on too many others.
VOTLW, Endless Cacophony, Rotate Ion Shields, Elimination Protocols, Smokescreen, Prey on the Weak. Just off the top of my head.
Rihgu wrote: Veterans of the Long War/Endless Cacaphony would really hurt CSM in general. Depending on the build, Daemonforge. I'm not super familiar with codices beyond that. When I play Sisters I feel like I use the stratagem to burn Miracle Dice to improve a save roll a lot (lots of 1s on Miracle Dice for me!), but I don't know if this is "optimal" play.
I think Kanluwen posted about Overwatch... that's a pretty tasty one to use it on.
Veterans is probably a good shout because you can use it for both shooting and assault.
Endless Cacophony is an example where it probably doesn't matter much. I think you are using it say 3 times (often less as the key units tend to be focus fired to death), so you'd be losing out on 2 CP. Its not *bad* - but its probably not as game changing as a Vect on a critical lynchpin stratagem was before. Which to be fair is probably why its been changed.
I feel Overwatch would probably be a terrible choice - because how often are you really using it? I'm not sure I've seen it used 3 times in a game of 9th. Certainly not more.
TBH, poison tongue has one of the most powerfull basic rules but all the other rules of the subfaction are very much a great meh.
And Prophets:
Spoiler:
Cheers for that.
A little disappointed that the Soul Seeker didn't get an extra shot. Was really hoping it would get a worthwhile buff in the new book (especially considering the amazing pistols other, more recent books have received.)
Rihgu wrote: Veterans of the Long War/Endless Cacaphony would really hurt CSM in general. Depending on the build, Daemonforge. I'm not super familiar with codices beyond that. When I play Sisters I feel like I use the stratagem to burn Miracle Dice to improve a save roll a lot (lots of 1s on Miracle Dice for me!), but I don't know if this is "optimal" play.
I think Kanluwen posted about Overwatch... that's a pretty tasty one to use it on.
Veterans is probably a good shout because you can use it for both shooting and assault.
Endless Cacophony is an example where it probably doesn't matter much. I think you are using it say 3 times (often less as the key units tend to be focus fired to death), so you'd be losing out on 2 CP. Its not *bad* - but its probably not as game changing as a Vect on a critical lynchpin stratagem was before. Which to be fair is probably why its been changed.
I feel Overwatch would probably be a terrible choice - because how often are you really using it? I'm not sure I've seen it used 3 times in a game of 9th. Certainly not more.
Counter-offensive might be useful. I have definitely been in situations where somebody only has the 2 CP required to interrupt later in the game (after having interrupted previously). Less so insane bravery (though I have definitely had that come up for certain armies)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So Flayed Skull still ignore cover which is ace for the base guns on everything.
Nobody cares about Poisoned 4+ AP0 D1 weapons in all seriousness, be it ignoring cover (only Light Cover and not Dense) to prevent enemies from getting an added +1 save to overpriced lasgun in most cases
Gadzilla666 wrote: 10 Incubi average 12 dead MEQ on the charge, and with their Tormentors rule they'll be scary for anything else to charge. Best to feed them bolters. Hellions got Hit and Run? Before the unit the rule was originally made for? Grrrr.
Gadzilla666 wrote: 10 Incubi average 12 dead MEQ on the charge, and with their Tormentors rule they'll be scary for anything else to charge. Best to feed them bolters. Hellions got Hit and Run? Before the unit the rule was originally made for? Grrrr.
Anything on Mandrakes?
Hellions have had hit and run for over 10 years mate.
It's not the new Vect is bad per se - it's a free strat that has a useful effect, those are always good - it's that it doesn't hold even a candle to the old one. The old Vect won you games almost on its own sometimes, this one is just a nice little bonus effect. It went from 10/10 best strat in the game to a "oh, well, that's somewhat annoying" kind of thing.
I seen a post that Reaver jetbikes are 10 points per model inthe codex.....so immediate FAQ?
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yukishiro1 wrote: It's not the new Vect is bad per se - it's a free strat that has a useful effect, those are always good - it's that it doesn't hold even a candle to the old one.
I agree, and don't want to piss on the parade of anyone who likes it. It's just that the old one was cool, and enabled cool psycholgical warfare. It's also the case that a meh stratagem is in the book at the cost of a potentially good one.
Gadzilla666 wrote: 10 Incubi average 12 dead MEQ on the charge, and with their Tormentors rule they'll be scary for anything else to charge. Best to feed them bolters. Hellions got Hit and Run? Before the unit the rule was originally made for? Grrrr.
Anything on Mandrakes?
I make it 14 dead MEQ.
Maybe I missed something in the math. Either way it's a wiped squad unless it's a big squad of CSM or Raptors.
harlokin wrote: I seen a post that Reaver jetbikes are 10 points per model inthe codex.....so immediate FAQ?
Not surprising, given that there was a problem with the first 2021 points update this year.. It was likely the MFM points were just copied from the codex (since it was originally going to come out the same month).
Given the mess of the publishing schedule, they should do a day 1 FAQ pointing them to the current MFM points anyway.
terrible news for that one player.
