timd wrote: Rec'd my copy (in CA) from Ninja Division today.
Have not been following the "KS vs retail version" details so don't know whether I have a KS or retail version...
T
If the box is slim (like 3 or 4 inches deep) then you've got a retail copy. Also, the tiles are thinner as well as the lack of blast templates/acid spit templates for the wargame.
A guy on BGG said he got his two boxes from Ninja Division (which seems to contradict they were only gonna send one per backer...) and mentioned he had the flamer/acid templates and larger quantity of tiles. That would indicate the allotment ND got from Prodos was the original KS version.
timd wrote: Rec'd my copy (in CA) from Ninja Division today.
Have not been following the "KS vs retail version" details so don't know whether I have a KS or retail version...
T
If the box is slim (like 3 or 4 inches deep) then you've got a retail copy. Also, the tiles are thinner as well as the lack of blast templates/acid spit templates for the wargame.
But it seems the lack of templates and thinner card will be common to the 'New' KS version as well as retail versions, with just the different box making it a KS version.
timd wrote: Rec'd my copy (in CA) from Ninja Division today.
Have not been following the "KS vs retail version" details so don't know whether I have a KS or retail version...
T
If the box is slim (like 3 or 4 inches deep) then you've got a retail copy. Also, the tiles are thinner as well as the lack of blast templates/acid spit templates for the wargame.
The box is 2-3/8" deep, has the cards in boxes and does have the flamer/acid spit template.
I purchased a retail version and I have to say that the thinner tiles are fine. Good quality and are not flimsy. So I'm not sure if thinner is worse or not.
Forlorn wrote: I purchased a retail version and I have to say that the thinner tiles are fine. Good quality and are not flimsy. So I'm not sure if thinner is worse or not.
KS has more tokens & tokens are same thickness as board tiles BUT retail version is less tokens on thinner card stock
My tokens are on two sheets of thinner stock (but include the flamer/acid template).
Edit: Or not... Flamer/acid template is on thicker stock.
Maybe the reason Ninja Division didn't want anything further to do with this is because they found out about the various clandestine switcheroos Prodos was doing with the contents? It's possibley they didn't want to be associated with it and more importantly devote the time and resources to fix it and/or field complaints about it.
CURNOW wrote: The reason for all the different versions is to make some scarce and ltd edition! Just see it as a extra gift to those lucky few good old prodos.
The Bespoke KS Exclusive Edition that more retail customers than backers got does indeed seem to be a limited edition. Unfortunately Prodos rewarded the wrong folks with it.
Î'm really tempted to let Fox know, how this went down AFTER the rest has been shipped - wave 2 and 3 I mean.
IF they care, they probably will shut this project down. If we let them know now, we could end up never receiving in full what we paid for.
Guys, quite frankly, the tile / counter thickness is irrelevant unless Prodos promised a particular weight of stock for those items (and I sorely doubt they did).
As long as the bill of materials matches the promised KS contents, Prodos has technically delivered what they said they would. It may be late and it may not have any compensation for delay. It may even be of lower subjective quality than what you might have hoped for. For those things, suck it up, buttercup.
Now, where you should be getting out the pitchforks and torches is where Prodos flat out failed to deliver and/or broke explicit promises. If they said they would give 5 things and only gave 4, that's a point of failure that you absolutely should hold them to task. Similarly, if they said they would provide resin, but only gave plastic, then they need to provide the correct product. AT THEIR COST.
And there is plenty enough where you can go after them for actual broken promises.
Focusing on the ticky-tack stuff like cardstock is a waste of time.
I agree, but with a caveat. Prodos DID promise the 'Bespoke KS Exclusive' version which was supposed to have higher quality components than the retail version. If the components are NOT higher quality than the retail version then they have indeed broken another promise.
I disagree. If they fulfill SOME backers' pledges with better quality items while OTHER backers' pledges get lower quality ones, that is definitely something to take them to task. It may not hold up in a court of law but, let's face it, it won't ever get that far. If that happens to you and you've got the short end of the stick, it absolutely is your right as a consumer to accurately complain about it loudly enough that every web search of the company's products turns up the issue.
Came home to a surprise yesterday, AvP was on my front porch waiting. I had nearly forgotten all about it as I long ago stopped reading the "EVENTUALLY" emails.
It's been a long time coming, and we promised both of these things some time ago, but we finally have the green-light to release a few exciting products for both Warzone Resurrection and Alien vs Predator.
Finally, just to say, this weekend we will be at Derby World Wargames in the UK. Come and visit us! For more information, follow this link: http://www.worldwargames.co.uk/
We will also be attending Essen Spiel, in Germany. You will find us on booth 2-E175. For more information please visit: http://www.merz-verlag-en.com/
At Essen Spiel, you can collect your pledge in ENGLISH OR GERMAN, simply print your pledge manager out and pass it to us. Equally, if you already have the English version and would like some German rules, please feel free to swing by and we will supply t
(and yet it does cut off like that at the end)
so I suspect the image above is linked to them getting green lit for some/all of the wave 2 stuff
krazynadechukr wrote: So it now appears that there is an inbetween boxed version that has the thinner (& less?) tokens & white boxed cards (not rubber banded) & template in a thinner box (now the new KS edition).....
The only question now about this revissed KS edition is -
Is the template on the thin stock now, or the thick like original KS edition (like game tile thickness)?
Is there 144 game tiles (all rooms, vents, doors, etc...) (original count in KS) or is there 112 (retail version)?
That will determine if this is Prodos' attempt to honor KS folks.
If someone feels like counting tiles, here are the punched sheets (13 total)...
Thin counter sheets:
Thick sheets. Eight of the ones in the lower left corner and one each of the other three.
warboss wrote: I disagree. If they fulfill SOME backers' pledges with better quality items while OTHER backers' pledges get lower quality ones, that is definitely something to take them to task.
How do we quantify or rather validate that one set if lower quality than another set (I'm assuming we're talking tile thickness)? Keeping in mind thicker does not equal higher quality nor does thinner also equal higher quality either, the thickness is technically irrelevant in terms of quality... (that's what she said)
I bought a set in July (it was a KS version, and I am not a KS person) & a retail in August...
The floor tiles in BOTH are the same thickness. Not an issue.
BUT the KS has 144 total rooms, halls, doors, vents. The Retail has 112.
The KS I got in July had a template & tokens same thickness as the 144 room tiles, BUT the retail had NO template & (fewer) tokens that were thin card stock, thin enough to go through a copier!
Those are the the ONLY differences.
However, someone got there KS edition & they had thin tokens. Question to him was - Did he get a template? I think he did, but at what thickness? which indicates a new mix of retail/ks.....Also, are there 144 or 112?
That was me. I did get a template and it was in the thicker board (even though I originally, incorrectly, said it was in the thin board).
Just counted the room, corridor, hall and vent pieces (posted pics of the punched sheets above).
Eight identical sheets with 11 pieces each is 88 pieces
20 doors from the counter sheets is 20 more.
The three other sheets have 11 more for a total of 119 pieces, so nowhere near 144.
Maybe for this Friday's update, Prodos will list the contents KS backers are supposed to get so we can quit the speculation.
Maybe they'll also explain why initial KS versions (shipped to backers and retail) have different contents (assuming that is intentional) than those being sent to backers now. Surely they understand that will be a bit of a let down for folks getting the lesser content, having backed the project just as folks who were lucky enough to get the first printing AND having waited longer.
What mess. Surely Prodos was smart enough to know this would be an issue and that NOT addressing it makes it even worse.
Was that September KS edition packed wrong or was it supposed to have 112 tiles? How about the thin box? (It was my understanding all KS versions were to have the thicker box)
Again, my point is Prodos needs to tell us KS backers what we should be getting. We can guess based on what you typed, but with the feth ups Prodos has managed to pull off, it is hard to know what they intended vice what happened due to a feth up.
I haven't received anything yet either. I'm hoping that we will hear something about this new distributer soon though. I'm glad that at least some people in NA are getting theirs, it would be nice to have some idea of when they will ship to the north though.
Looks like ND are still going to be distributing the retail version in the US
10/02/2015 (Boise, ID)
The street date for Alien v Predator: The Hunt Begins has been moved from its original date of 9/30/2015 to 11/11/2015, due to a delay in our stock arriving in the United States. If our stock arrives sooner that currently anticipated, we will amend the street date accordingly at that time.
We are eager to see this incredible game released, and look forward to getting it out so that others can enjoy it.
Err, my understanding was that ND was still distributing the product regardless, just that they would be using an outside service to distribute the goods from the port location instead of having to ship it by train/truck to Idaho first.
That's in regards to the stock for KS backers they appear to have washed their hands of that and got another distributor to handle the rest of it but they will still be the distributor for the retail version.
Prodos will coordinate with the third party fulfillment center and ensure delivery of the final items.
Got the Marines, Predators and bent over aliens assembled today, so here is a report.
The resin is a slightly plasticy resin; not brittle and pretty easy to work with. Its fileable and shaves easily with a sharp knife.
Casting quality is generally very good with not a lot of mold lines, although all three Predators did have some pronounced mold lines/shifts.
Assembly
Predators go together pretty easily and the parts fit pretty well. One of the arm sockets needs to be trimmed to get the arm into the socket. Arms and sockets are all lettered, so getting the arms in the right sockets is easy.
The five stalkers go together fine although some of the pieces are sprued on the mating surfaces so some cleanup is required. Many of both types of aliens have have sprues to the palms of their hands which requires a ball burr to completely clean because of the proximity of the delicate fingers. Arms and sockets are again all lettered.
Then we come to the Marines. Nice castings, but the arm pegs of every arm need to be carefully trimmed down to fit in the arm holes and this is quite tedious. They are too big for the holes so each side of the square peg needs to be shaved down a bit. I'm an experienced modeler, so this was not hard, but it took quite a while to get all the arms to fit correctly. I find it hard to believe that the Prodos guys assembled any of these figs and did not notice the problem.
Overall the figs are nice, but some modeling experience is needed to make them look their best. I pity the boardgamer with no modeling skills who buys this game before the plastic figs show up. Will have some pics in part 2 of this report.
Same things I experienced. Four aliens? You mean the Stalkers? Should be five. Mine where almost gummy sometimes and I had to shave down the pegs of the tails as well.
Moses Bad wrote: Same things I experienced.
Four aliens? You mean the Stalkers? Should be five.
Mine where almost gummy sometimes and I had to shave down the pegs of the tails as well.
Yup, corrected my post to five stalkers.
None of mine were anywhere near 'gummy". Gummy = bad resin mix, so you might want to get them replaced. They will never get better and will bend easier than fully cured resin figs...
I'm assuming I will have to shave down the tail pegs on the aliens, but have not gotten to it yet. Considering adding the tails after painting.
Yeah, they bend real easy, but I'm not too sure I can still have them replaced, having them assembled already.
But, big but in my opinion, they flex back just as easy.
Moses Bad wrote: Yeah, they bend real easy, but I'm not too sure I can still have them replaced, having them assembled already.
But, big but in my opinion, they flex back just as easy.
Defective is defective, whether assembled or not. I have not had trouble with getting replacements for defective models with some bad WarZone stuff.
Just tell them its a bad resin mix.
Tim - who has cast a LOT of resin as the original owner of Armorcast.
And available to ship to select backers on 30/02/2016 if quantities and monies available despite paying two years earlier. Contents may vary; due to manufacturer considerations, alien queen may be downgraded to crown princess instead. Select random blisters may or may not contain an alternate version with only one mouth because the second interior snappy jaws are prone to cosly miscasting. Information subject to change with or without your knowledge and disseminated via one off conflicting posts sprinkled across the internet.
Retail price is the same as the KS price and then less after the discount from retailers plus you get it before backers - really should have waited for retail on this one - although at this point I wouldn't have bought it retail either.
DaveC wrote: Retail price is the same as the KS price and then less after the discount from retailers plus you get it before backers - really should have waited for retail on this one - although at this point I wouldn't have bought it retail either.
I Dont think they said what the RRP would be or if we would get them any cheaper on the Kickstarter to be fair.... I feel dirty after that slight bit of defence of Prodos
It wouldn't surprise me one bit if retail got their stock before the backers, what would surprise me if Prodos were actually upfront and honest about this for a change. (I know they have said we backers would get the rest of our pledges before retail but who believes them anymore)
I've a feeling that all non US backers will not be shipped now until wave 2 is ready to go so they can go together.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also any word from the Closed Facebook page about this weeks update?
Copied from an Admin comment on blog.prodosgames.com on 2nd Oct...
"We cannot survive without making these decisions. We must release product and sell product so that we can ship you the product that you are owed."
I'm seeing it more and more. Since backers have no control over the collected funds, creators mismanage funds or actually intend to use money collected for shipping to create product for retail sales. After creating backer and retailer inventory, creator doesn't have enough money to ship to backers, so ships to retailers to get retailer money to ship to backers. Backers get their product after retailers.
"Backers first" is happening less and less. Not only do you now have to look for a creator who says this *explicitly*, but you should check their previous project to see if they really did put backers first.
And available to ship to select backers on 30/02/2016 if quantities and monies available despite paying two years earlier. Contents may vary; due to manufacturer considerations, alien queen may be downgraded to crown princess instead. Select random blisters may or may not contain an alternate version with only one mouth because the second interior snappy jaws are prone to cosly miscasting. Information subject to change with or without your knowledge and disseminated via one off conflicting posts sprinkled across the internet.
...And check your pledge, we opened it again, and won't be shipping you stuff till you close it (and add extra funds so we know you love us).
hey,.
i live in vancouver and i have received my copy of the avp game like 2 weeks ago. but i got retail version. they messed up a bit because i got an email that my game has been sent like in august and after one month nothing has been delivered. so i wrote an email to michal pawlaczik and he replied that my game got stuck at the polish customs. it took them another month to resend it. ups guy delivered it and i had to pay ca$ 40 for the delivery >..<
got it right from prodos from poland.
They also threw in an extra bag of 9 aliens with no tails!
No bases either....
Automatically Appended Next Post: you read that right.....
I'm glad they fixed your marines for you, but I have to admit, I'm a bit annoyed they are sending out replacement parts already when many of us haven't gotten a darned thing yet.
I know it is petty to feel that way too. I'm just a schmuck.
Just out of curiosity, were you a KS backer or did you get your set via retail?
6 Days ago, I sent my retail copy back. We were told in the blog post on the 24th September that you receive a replacement copy within 7 days... Nothing received as yet.
angelofvengeance wrote: 6 Days ago, I sent my retail copy back. We were told in the blog post on the 24th September that you receive a replacement copy within 7 days... Nothing received as yet.
Just an another bad joke from prodos : a friend of mine (french) sent to Michal a very angry mail about the fact he haven't get his box in french... All he received was just "Merci" O_O
Is anyone receiving responses from Prodos at present. I appear to have been sent two copies of the retail box and would rather have KS tiles but seem to be getting ignored. Maybe because I said I wouldn't pay shipping to correct their error!
I've emailed Michal twice about it. No excuse for the comms being so poor.
Mine was delivered to Saudi Arabia yesterday, I got the retail copy despite being a Kickstarter backer.
It's going to cost me almost as much as a new box to ship back to exchange, and I already am getting the predator ship tiles.
I sent an email last night, we'll see what happens.
I don't see why I should pay £60 for shipping to fix their screw up.
I'm wondering now if every KS backer is just going to get the retail version? They probably know full well that most people aren't going to bother paying to return and swap it.
Especially as the KS was so long ago that the pledgers who were on their first dates with someone at the time are now married with children, teenagers who pledged are now doing their masters courses at university and have no time for gaming, and anyone who was over the age of 50 is dead.
chaos0xomega wrote: People in Saudi Arabia got their pledges before the majority of Americans -_-
I'm not sure what that has to do with anything?...
Does anyone know (or even have an educated guess) as to what precentage of backers have recieved anything (even if it been wrong)? I have a feeling we are still under half fullfilled with wave one, but I can't back that up.
I still haven't heard anything at all. All the talk of people receiving the retail version instead of the ks version is quite frankly quite depressing. I've had a few moments where my mind tries to convince me I wouldn't even mind the retail version at this point. Anyone else feeling that? Was this the plan all along? I honestly couldn't feel dumber at this point, I pledged so much, had such high hopes, and now, almost dread getting a shipping notice, knowing that I'll probably get the retail version and be too unmotivated to get it corrected.
We know a maximum of 230 US backers have or will be getting theirs shortly (50 at the convention, and up 180 from Ninja Division). Though Ninja Division (I think) mentioned only sending 1 copy per backer, I've seen at least two folks who claimed to have gotten 'both' their copies so I suspect the actual number is slightly less than the maximum.
What I don't know is the total number of US backers, so it is hard to tell what percentage of the total those copies equate to. No way to even estimate the % of total backers world wide having gotten their copies.
As for the switch to retail version, or even retail components in a KS box, it pisses me off. A lot. Prodos knowingly doing this (especially after having sold actual KS version via retail) is a real gak move on their part.
Alex C wrote: All I want are the models, therefore I don't care what version I get.
Ah, there's the rub, Bub!
Kickstarter aliens heads are seperate from the bodies & retail the heads are on the body already.... I have both editions, and prefer the retail (heads already part of body).....
Automatically Appended Next Post: Other minis in kick & retail are the same though...
Alex C wrote: All I want are the models, therefore I don't care what version I get.
Ah, there's the rub, Bub!
Kickstarter aliens heads are seperate from the bodies & retail the heads are on the body already.... I have both editions, and prefer the retail (heads already part of body).....
Automatically Appended Next Post: Other minis in kick & retail are the same though...
Thats the first I heard of that as well. Most posts be it ks or retail versions have said the minis are the same. How can anyone actually know whats going on? Sigh...
I received my copies what feels like ages ago, before there even was talk of the whole switching this and that.
My Aliens have their heads on their bodies.
all the Alien heads will be separate moving forward no matter which version you get (at least on the stalkers) - the change was not made for retail but rather because they were getting far too many miscasts trying to produce them as one piece head & torso. The change was made relatively recently. They also moved the resin vents from the palms of the hand to the shoulders at the same time, because the palm location was causing issues for backers trying to trim the vent points without dismembering their models.
To my mind (having not seen how well they've split the parts) it would be better to have them separate as it increases the options with respect to posing, or at least means you don't have to heat treat to move the head.
redcore wrote: Man i would never return that game. Even if its retail and not ks. The difference between those two versions is like none now.
I want what I paid for lol.
Yeah i understand that. But what will you get? 2 useles templates (poison fire) and some extra cheap tiles? and on top of that you have to pay for delivery.
Well it seems the lies continue. Apparently the addons can be purchased at Essen. People are posting on the FB page AVP Wargamer pictures of the addons with price tags on them.
Sebastian Diehl 9:08am Oct 8
Actually to be honest as of today they're selling the retail box and the add-ons. At least I saw one guy buy add ons. Could have been a KS backer. But the guy there told me they were selling the retail box, so assuming same goes for the add-ons.
I wish I was surprised by this. But... I'm not. There has been little doubt as to how they feel about their ks backers for a long time now, this just continues to display how they reward us for giving them our money so long ago.
Not sure if this has been posted here but I know I read some people couldn't remember or have access to the Kickstarter page to remember what was on it. Yeah for internet archives! You can browse the updates, etc and this archive it from the day after it ended. There are a few more snapshots as well.
Whilst I am a KS Backer and haven’t received anything as yet, I could let the red mist descend and go into nerd rage about Wave 2 items now being sold at retail, as well as the game, before they've sent it out to all the KS backers. But this isn't necessarily a bad thing. The more they sell at retail, the more funding they have to actually send the KS out.
If the internet rumours are true, they need retail sales to fund the delivery of KS stuff.
Wow those Essen € prices are much better than the pledge manager going by today's exchange rates. Surprised that they are not marked up while the KS shipping it still in progress - a missed opportunity?
So not only does Prodos give a frakk about the people who gave them the money in the first place, we actually get the worse price. OK, so maybe we've gotten some bits and pieces as free add ons, still, none of which haven't arrived with anybody least to say about coreboxes for all the backers. I stand by my statement, complete fullfilment no earlier than December 2016 - and if the only thing missing will be the terrain some might have backed for.
Now who wants to take bets they'll run out of that stuff before the backers have theirs?
Money I'd have saved going to Essen instead of supporting this farce: Predalien 5 GBP Royal Guard 20 GBP Warriors 3 GBP Hellhounds 4 GBP Queen ? (estimated 25 GBP from the looks of the other prices)
So in total I'd have saved at least 32 GBP waiting for retail. Rejoice guys, time to feel special again.
By now I just can't help the impression, every move Prodos does is especially intended to be another heartful kick to the teeth for the backers ...
TheSecretSquig wrote: Whilst I am a KS Backer and haven’t received anything as yet, I could let the red mist descend and go into nerd rage about Wave 2 items now being sold at retail, as well as the game, before they've sent it out to all the KS backers. But this isn't necessarily a bad thing. The more they sell at retail, the more funding they have to actually send the KS out.
If the internet rumours are true, they need retail sales to fund the delivery of KS stuff.
I feel the same way to be honest. I don't like what they're doing, but I'm of the opinion that they wouldn't do it unless they absolutely had to. You simply wouldn't risk upsetting your customers so much and losing all future trade from them, and if nothing else the selling at retail while backers still await long standing orders is a PR disaster.
So, would rather this than nothing at all if the company sank. I've already had a big-time loss with one KS this year that I think should now change classification from MIA -> presumed dead, don't want another..
2 Updates today one of which they didn't publish last week...
Spoiler:
THIS IS RUMOUR CONTROL, HERE ARE THE FACTS – OCTOBER 02, 2015
LEAVE A COMMENT
Hello all and welcome to October!
This will be a rather short update as we do not have much to report on. We apologise that this is not rammed with info, but we will answer a few questions that we can and, of course, update you on stuff that we are doing.
So firstly, the first batch of Wave 2 Add On boxes are now in our warehouse. We hope to begin packing these on Monday. Today, our packing team was sorting out (and dusting off) some of those Wave 2 miniatures we cast so long ago and making sure the quality is top notch. We’re still waiting on the tokens for these, so shipping will not commence yet.
Second point – we have approached a new assembly company that is used to packing boardgames to pack our game. They will be starting very soon and have assured us that they will be able to better meet our quota. Since then, our current packer has found out and has pushed us further down the ‘priority list’. This means that we have not received Kickstarter copies this week, as promised, and will instead be receiving them next week or the week following. In this time, we will make sure to pack wave 2.
Third point, Ninja Division has now shipped out all of the boxes that we sent to them. That’s one to each backer that they were able to. We will be doing the same as soon as the cargo ship hits the port in America. We want to take this moment to thank our friends across the sea for holding up their end of the bargain and for doing such a great job of it!
Final point, many of you have aptly observed that at the end of October, we plan to release – to retail – the Alien Queen, Predator Hellhounds and the Power Loader. We are aware that this is going back on a promise we made previously, for which we apologise. We cannot expect you to be understanding, and we do not expect that, but we just want to explain that this decision does not come easily (if it did, we would just release the whole lot); but is a measure made so that we can generate the revenue required to ship out AvP to you guys and sustain our business. We are also coming up to license renewal time; which will of course have a cost attached to it that we must generate the revenue for in order to keep this game alive into the coming years.
Okay, don’t forget we will be at Derby World Wargames this weekend. Sadly, we will not have Kickstarter Copies available. The supply issue has meant that we haven’t had any to ship out from Poland over to here and any we did have, have been shipped off to backers. We will have retail copies, if you are willing to take one of those in lieu, but this is your decision and we are not going to enforce it at all. If you wish to discuss anything, please feel free to find us and come to our stand.
We are also at Essen Spiel, at which we will have KS copies available at. Both in English AND German.
THIS IS RUMOUR CONTROL, HERE ARE THE FACTS – OCTOBER 08, 2015
OCTOBER 8, 2015 LEAVE A COMMENT
Hey there all,
apologies that our last update did not get posted straight away. We have had a rather busy week and simply did not remember to publish it. However, it is published now and ready for you guys to read.
OKay, so as many of you know, we are at Essen Spiel! We have given out loads of Kickstarter copies to backers and have lots of German editions left to supply you with! We also have 6 of the Wave 2 items to hand out to backers over the weekend, these are the following:
We are packing these up in our warehouse even now, to start fulfilling any Kickstarter pledges that we ship out (remaining Wave 1s) with these items.
For those of you who did not manage to get them in your pledge, they are available to buy at Essen Spiel as a show exclusive and they will start to be available from retailers at the end of October.
Final point, many of you have aptly observed that at the end of October, we plan to release – to retail – the Alien Queen, Predator Hellhounds and the Power Loader. We are aware that this is going back on a promise we made previously, for which we apologise. We cannot expect you to be understanding, and we do not expect that, but we just want to explain that this decision does not come easily (if it did, we would just release the whole lot); but is a measure made so that we can generate the revenue required to ship out AvP to you guys and sustain our business. We are also coming up to license renewal time; which will of course have a cost attached to it that we must generate the revenue for in order to keep this game alive into the coming years.
chaos0xomega wrote: My flgs has AVP in stock. I was only minorly annoyed before, now Im outright pissed.
Retail version or KS version?
It would be funny if they had the KS version and you got sent the retail version.
Cant really tell. The box looked very thin to me, actually surprisingly thin, so I imagine its the retail version, as I have difficulty imagining them fitting all the product into anything smaller, but then again I have trouble imagining them fitting all that stuff into the boxes at the store too.
We are also coming up to license renewal time; which will of course have a cost attached to it that we must generate the revenue for in order to keep this game alive into the coming years.
Fox could quite easily pull the plug before we get anything
We are also coming up to license renewal time; which will of course have a cost attached to it that we must generate the revenue for in order to keep this game alive into the coming years.
Fox could quite easily pull the plug before we get anything
Final point, many of you have aptly observed that at the end of October, we plan to release – to retail – the Alien Queen, Predator Hellhounds and the Power Loader. We are aware that this is going back on a promise we made previously, for which we apologise. We cannot expect you to be understanding, and we do not expect that, but we just want to explain that this decision does not come easily (if it did, we would just release the whole lot); but is a measure made so that we can generate the revenue required to ship out AvP to you guys and sustain our business. We are also coming up to license renewal time; which will of course have a cost attached to it that we must generate the revenue for in order to keep this game alive into the coming years.
These were supposed to be KS campaign exclusives?
That a tough one there - how many additional sales were generated based on assumptions of scarcity/rarity/etc.?
We are also coming up to license renewal time; which will of course have a cost attached to it that we must generate the revenue for in order to keep this game alive into the coming years.
Fox could quite easily pull the plug before we get anything
They have zero integrity and have fethed up their use of the license. Why reward them with another shot? If Fox is monitoring any of this they would be crazy to allow renewal.
Final point, many of you have aptly observed that at the end of October, we plan to release – to retail – the Alien Queen, Predator Hellhounds and the Power Loader. We are aware that this is going back on a promise we made previously, for which we apologise. We cannot expect you to be understanding, and we do not expect that, but we just want to explain that this decision does not come easily (if it did, we would just release the whole lot); but is a measure made so that we can generate the revenue required to ship out AvP to you guys and sustain our business. We are also coming up to license renewal time; which will of course have a cost attached to it that we must generate the revenue for in order to keep this game alive into the coming years.
These were supposed to be KS campaign exclusives?
That a tough one there - how many additional sales were generated based on assumptions of scarcity/rarity/etc.?
No, the Berserker and the KS Exclusive Resin game box were the only real exclusives. The promise is us KS backers would get those items before they went to retail.
The Essen prices seem to be a for the event as Firestorm listed the RRP as the same as the KS prices for the Queen, Powerloader and Hounds (but thye end up cheaper after the retailers discount)
They "forgot" to post the update that they were breaking their KS promise again until AFTER the news had already filtered out that they were selling even more products to new customers before backers got their stuff? I'm not surprised that they were supposedly too busy to post that little nugget last week.
Final point, many of you have aptly observed that at the end of October, we plan to release – to retail – the Alien Queen, Predator Hellhounds and the Power Loader. We are aware that this is going back on a promise we made previously, for which we apologise. We cannot expect you to be understanding, and we do not expect that, but we just want to explain that this decision does not come easily (if it did, we would just release the whole lot); but is a measure made so that we can generate the revenue required to ship out AvP to you guys and sustain our business. We are also coming up to license renewal time; which will of course have a cost attached to it that we must generate the revenue for in order to keep this game alive into the coming years.
These were supposed to be KS campaign exclusives?
That a tough one there - how many additional sales were generated based on assumptions of scarcity/rarity/etc.?
No, the Berserker and the KS Exclusive Resin game box were the only real exclusives. The promise is us KS backers would get those items before they went to retail.
yeah,
Lie after lie. Insult after insult.
I think I've reached the point that the only thing Prodos could do to shock me is delivering my pledge…
It's such a shame. I had such high hopes.
As much as I love the AVP brand, I think right now if my package did arrive I'd have to consider selling it. Prodos’s treatment of me as a KS backers has tainted the product and any joy I could get from it.
It could have been a great game with a long series of releases...
But I honestly don't think I could spend a single penny more on this game knowing it would go to Prodos?
Nie gryź ręki, która Cię karmi.
I don't think I'll ever see all of my pledge.
I think for me the best thing would be for Fox to pull the plug so we can all apply for refunds. I'm so bored and tired of their gak and I don't really want anything to do with these clowns, just my money back.
Panic, are you polish or did you get that phrase from elsewhere? In any case, I'd have everyone know that the translation for bastion of honesty and truth is NOT directly translated into Polish as a hive of scum and villainy despite Prodos' claims regarding Dakka.
I joined specifically to say how unhappy I am with this KS after watching this thread for a long time.
I am a UK backer who put in a £300 pledge and has not received anything while my FLGS has had about 6 copies on the shelf since June/July. I now find this talk of 'license renewal' time very very worrying as if Prodos go under no backers will see their models. Which admittedly look amazing and the IP has always been a favourite of mine.
It's become obvious that Prodos are in financial dire-straits. I wish they had just said this months ago as it's something I could sympathise with. The sympathy which was there has now run out.
None of my friends backers in France haven't received yet one box...
Just one question : at the beginning, CMON was said that it be in the affair for dispatching boxes in USA/Canada... But now we're soken about Ninja Division...
Did CMON ran out after seeing how prodos is a trap ?
I don't think the reason to use CMON was ever given. I do remember a lot of anti-CMON sentiment in the AvP KS comments. If I remember correctly folks put some of the blame for McVey's Sedition Wars disaster on CMON.
CptJake wrote: I don't think the reason to use CMON was ever given. I do remember a lot of anti-CMON sentiment in the AvP KS comments. If I remember correctly folks put some of the blame for McVey's Sedition Wars disaster on CMON.
I bet those folks are eating their words now, not that CMON would have been able to ship what Prodos hadn't given them... At least CMON ks get shipped. I would be very surprised if Fox were to actually extend Prodos the license after all this bs, but who knows.
I never understood the Sedition Wars hate for CMON. To me it was always clear McVey was the problem. CMON at that point had done very well with the original Zombicide and a couple other KS projects. Delivery was not what hurt Sedition Wars...
As for Fox extending, who knows. I bet one reason Prodos censors their Facebook and forums (and why they shut down the KS) is so the visible signs of their fething up are not as prevalent to Fox. Fox won't have folks looking here for example. I would be willing to bet Prodos shows Fox a very happy sun shiny rainbow filled picture, and frankly would not be surprised if they cook the books when it comes to the numbers they show Fox. And it is such a TINY piece of Fox's business that Fox has no real reason to dig into it too much.
I could definitely see Fox not really caring about this effort, enough to shut it down. I have a very hard time believing that anyone at Prodos is even somewhat capable of "cooking the books", not that they wouldn't want to, just that they wouldn't have a clue as to how to do it. If they did, they would probably just make themselves look worse... It takes skill and a knowledge of business that they have never showed that they possess! If they can't even do it right... how can they make it look that way?
CptJake wrote: I never understood the Sedition Wars hate for CMON. To me it was always clear McVey was the problem. CMON at that point had done very well with the original Zombicide and a couple other KS projects. Delivery was not what hurt Sedition Wars...
As for Fox extending, who knows. I bet one reason Prodos censors their Facebook and forums (and why they shut down the KS) is so the visible signs of their fething up are not as prevalent to Fox. Fox won't have folks looking here for example. I would be willing to bet Prodos shows Fox a very happy sun shiny rainbow filled picture, and frankly would not be surprised if they cook the books when it comes to the numbers they show Fox. And it is such a TINY piece of Fox's business that Fox has no real reason to dig into it too much.
I don't see them cooking the books. Putting an unrealisticly favorable spin on sales ("look, we've got XXX number of orders for the game!" while forgetting to mention the thousands of kickstarter copies they're screwing backers out of getting in a timely fashion in order to fill those new orders) as well as sweeping everything negative under the rug when possible (like shutting down the KS for fraudulent IP reasons as well as heavily pruning commentary elsewhere if not shutting it down completely). Both of those are par for the course and methods that Prodos has demonstrated they're willing to use when convienent.
I guess I include skipping number owed to backers (to include the cost of shipping those orders) in order to give a better financial picture as 'cooking the books', since it paints a less than accurate picture of the financial situation.
Perhaps 'cooking the books' is the wrong term, but I seriously doubt they are showing an accurate accounting of their situation.
One does wonder with some hine-sight if the delay is also so the KS and after KS backers can be moved into 'We currently have XXXX number of orders for this game' And we are selling to XXXX Retail units.
It would present a nice image and give a sense of importance on the game.
CptJake wrote: I never understood the Sedition Wars hate for CMON. To me it was always clear McVey was the problem. CMON at that point had done very well with the original Zombicide and a couple other KS projects. Delivery was not what hurt Sedition Wars...
Indeed. The major problems with SedWars:
1. gakky rules
2. gakky scenarios
3. change of scale and stats
4. delayed delivery
5. bad communications
ALL of that rests at the feet of McVey, not CMoN. McVey was responsible for the rules, and it's clear that they have no idea how a SHulk game should play. McVey was responsible for the scenarios, which had terrible balance and progression. McVey decided to rebalance the game to "make it harder" for no good reason. McVey decided to swithch from Heroic to Scale, for no good reason. All of this delayed wave 2. And all of it was done without incorporating any backer feedback, or even announcing that there would be changes and delays.
CMoN, OTOH, did a fair job of delivering what McVey gave them. But CMoN can't deliver what McVey hasn't produced.
McVey dug his own grave here, and he should be enduringly thankful that CMoN continues to use him for things like the Others.
Well maybe the best thing would have been to let McVey sculpt the minis, do what he does best, and leave the rest of things to everyone else; business planning etc.
I also think the scale of the KS took everyone, not least McVey, completely by surprise.
Is that the plastic retail version? JK
But in the absence of anything from Prodos those look awesome and "close enough".
Automatically Appended Next Post: On another note Panzerfaust has launched on kickstarter. It appears that a lot of money must have been spent developing it so far. Perhaps they should have spent a little less and shipped at least Wave 1 of AVP first.
Someone ought to point out the relationship between Prodos and Hysterical Games to KS. Not that KS would do anything about it, but they should know that by allowing Prodos under the Hysterical Games name to do another KS after fething up AvP so badly, and lying to KS int he process to get the page taken down, that KS could be opening themselves up to some interesting issues.
Look at it this way - the more money the make out of this, the sooner they can ship AvP (you don't honestly believe they suddenly developed management skills, do you?).
CptJake wrote: I never understood the Sedition Wars hate for CMON. To me it was always clear McVey was the problem. CMON at that point had done very well with the original Zombicide and a couple other KS projects. Delivery was not what hurt Sedition Wars...
Indeed. The major problems with SedWars:
1. gakky rules
2. gakky scenarios
3. change of scale and stats
4. delayed delivery
5. bad communications
ALL of that rests at the feet of McVey, not CMoN. McVey was responsible for the rules, and it's clear that they have no idea how a SHulk game should play. McVey was responsible for the scenarios, which had terrible balance and progression. McVey decided to rebalance the game to "make it harder" for no good reason. McVey decided to swithch from Heroic to Scale, for no good reason. All of this delayed wave 2. And all of it was done without incorporating any backer feedback, or even announcing that there would be changes and delays.
CMoN, OTOH, did a fair job of delivering what McVey gave them. But CMoN can't deliver what McVey hasn't produced.
McVey dug his own grave here, and he should be enduringly thankful that CMoN continues to use him for things like the Others.
While all fault for the rules lays with mcvey, cmon were responsible for production of the physical goods.
As such the buck stops with them for the gakky quality boards and abysmal minatures and other such issues. As a backer it was painfully obvious that cmon got everything produced as cheaply as possible and pocketed the rest.
Moses Bad wrote: Look at it this way - the more money the make out of this, the sooner they can ship AvP (you don't honestly believe they suddenly developed management skills, do you?).
Hadn't thought of that. Possible Prodos Ponzi Plan? Panzerfaust KS funds which fix AVP KS funds which fix Warzone KS funds.
Unlikely since the directors are not the same (nor are they 'family'
scammers are unlikely to hand ownership of their 'cake' to anybody they don't have a tight hold of in case the new owners eat it all themselves
It seems more likely that you work for a wargaming company because you like wargaming,
and so you may have ideas for your own game,
and since your current employer does work on 3rd party stuff for hire (and does a nice job on the sculpting/casting front) you'd use them... if nothing else you get so watch stuff actually getting done much more closely than if you'd gone with an outside contractor
CptJake wrote: I never understood the Sedition Wars hate for CMON. To me it was always clear McVey was the problem. CMON at that point had done very well with the original Zombicide and a couple other KS projects. Delivery was not what hurt Sedition Wars...
Indeed. The major problems with SedWars:
1. gakky rules
2. gakky scenarios
3. change of scale and stats
4. delayed delivery
5. bad communications
ALL of that rests at the feet of McVey, not CMoN. McVey was responsible for the rules, and it's clear that they have no idea how a SHulk game should play. McVey was responsible for the scenarios, which had terrible balance and progression. McVey decided to rebalance the game to "make it harder" for no good reason. McVey decided to swithch from Heroic to Scale, for no good reason. All of this delayed wave 2. And all of it was done without incorporating any backer feedback, or even announcing that there would be changes and delays.
CMoN, OTOH, did a fair job of delivering what McVey gave them. But CMoN can't deliver what McVey hasn't produced.
McVey dug his own grave here, and he should be enduringly thankful that CMoN continues to use him for things like the Others.
While all fault for the rules lays with mcvey, cmon were responsible for production of the physical goods.
As such the buck stops with them for the gakky quality boards and abysmal minatures and other such issues. As a backer it was painfully obvious that cmon got everything produced as cheaply as possible and pocketed the rest.
I don't think the SedWars boards were of particularly bad quality - they just hadn't been pressed and acclimated for long enough. Board warpage is a common issue in the boardgaming world, but something that many wargamers simply hadn't seen before. If you had a set sitting in your closet today, it would be more than acceptably flat - I just checked, and mine is nice and flat.
The SedWars minis were of adequate quality, when one considers the pricing. The choice of PVC materials definitely has problems if you're used to GW/Tamiya/Bandai HIPS, but that's the difference between getting 100 minis for $100 and getting 40 (or less). The sculpts were fine, although McVey switching style and scale for Wave 2 was an unthinkably stupid move.
The other SedWars components were also of adequate quality, and the off-center punching is again, typical in the boardgaming world. But if you're used to the millimeter precision of a modern GW HIPS kit, then you're going to complain (OTOH, if you had the old RT/2E GW metals and plastics, and seen some of their mold misalignments...)
Anyhow, CMoN did make the game on a budget. I think they could have waited a bit longer on the boards, but the overall quality of production was OK for what we paid. It's just that the game itself is terrible.
I have 2 sedition wars sets and 3 of all the promos. The scale of the wave 2 promos varies (the "river" miniature is freakishly small... otherwise their variation is not that unlife-like).
As for the boards, mine were fine and seem to hold up better than the zombicide boards. The cards were good quality, dice were good, etc.
The plastic shows detail well and paints well, however it is a prick to work with. It is the same restic or whatever you call it that mantic makes their stuff out of. It cuts easily but mould lines are very hard to remove.
Other than the plastic (which is the same as mantic games), it is actually a decent game with great minis. People were just upset as we were all hoping for the same quality of McVey's resins... and no plastic will do that. I still have my copies and t is one of the kickstarters I won't part with.
I picked up my copy in Essen. The Prodos staff were a nice bunch of people and the copy I received was the original english KS version (high game box, white card boxes, additional tiles and flame template on thick cardstock). So, I am happy with my copy and hope that this means Prodos went back to the original KS version for us backers. Nevertheless, selling the wave 2 items before we backers received them is another broken promise. And selling them way cheaper (even if it was just for the convention) is another punch in the face.
On a sidenote:
The Prodos guys told me that they plan to finish wave 2 shipping including all boardgame relevant stuff until christmas (for backers and retail). Beginning next year they will then focus on the wargame aspect (including the hardcover rulebook, templates etc.)
455_PWR wrote: I have 2 sedition wars sets and 3 of all the promos. The scale of the wave 2 promos varies (the "river" miniature is freakishly small... otherwise their variation is not that unlife-like).
As for the boards, mine were fine and seem to hold up better than the zombicide boards. The cards were good quality, dice were good, etc.
The plastic shows detail well and paints well, however it is a prick to work with. It is the same restic or whatever you call it that mantic makes their stuff out of. It cuts easily but mould lines are very hard to remove.
Other than the plastic (which is the same as mantic games), it is actually a decent game with great minis. People were just upset as we were all hoping for the same quality of McVey's resins... and no plastic will do that. I still have my copies and t is one of the kickstarters I won't part with.
shadowtyrant wrote: I received was the original english KS version (high game box, white card boxes, additional tiles and flame template on thick cardstock). So, I am happy with my copy and hope that this means Prodos went back to the original KS version for us backers.
It means rather than pay the higher shipping to get KS backers their copies, they are sending out the ones with cheaper components. Taking any originals to conventions where they don't have to pay shipping.
455_PWR wrote: I have 2 sedition wars sets and 3 of all the promos. The scale of the wave 2 promos varies (the "river" miniature is freakishly small... otherwise their variation is not that unlife-like).
As for the boards, mine were fine and seem to hold up better than the zombicide boards. The cards were good quality, dice were good, etc.
The plastic shows detail well and paints well, however it is a prick to work with. It is the same restic or whatever you call it that mantic makes their stuff out of. It cuts easily but mould lines are very hard to remove.
Other than the plastic (which is the same as mantic games), it is actually a decent game with great minis. People were just upset as we were all hoping for the same quality of McVey's resins... and no plastic will do that. I still have my copies and t is one of the kickstarters I won't part with.
Wait... your models are restic?
I thought we were getting resin?
Cyporiean wrote:First I've heard of PVC figs in this.
I think he's talking about his SEDITION WARS stuff?
I agree that he's probably talking about the Sedition Wars stuff and NOT the avp stuff. Unfortunately, the confusion likely stems from the fact that if there had been a secret change in the material of the figures for the worse that backers would only be "informed" after the fact. That sadly would be par for the course given how this kickstarter has been run. :(
I can be wrong, but wasn't the last promise to get the wave 2 done to mid October and ship a month later mid November? Sure, nobody gives a flip anymore about timetables when provided by Prodos, but that's what I remember. Again I repeat, I believe it the moment I see it.
Still have not the littlest information from my french friends that they would receive their box...
We, in France, are laughing about KS Hysterical campaign : obviously and as it said, the cash would probably fix part of he AVP mess...
Anyway, a friend of mine tryed to inform Hysterical backers that all about prodos (directly or not) is dangerous for its backers (regarding Warzone and AVP)... And all the answers he got were "Hu ? I think there's not any problem indeed you're to angry" O_O "Ok guys, after all, this is YOUR money, not mine, enjoy yourself !"... Peoples are so optimistic ? O_O'
Let me invite you to put an eye on my stalkers minis to help you waiting :
If you are interested in, I've published about 60 pics in my Temple ^^
Morikun wrote: We, in France, are laughing about KS Hysterical campaign : obviously and as it said, the cash would probably fix part of he AVP mess... Anyway, a friend of mine tryed to inform Hysterical backers that all about prodos (directly or not) is dangerous for its backers (regarding Warzone and AVP)... And all the answers he got were "Hu ? I think there's not any problem indeed you're to angry" O_O "Ok guys, after all, this is YOUR money, not mine, enjoy yourself !"... Peoples are so optimistic ? O_O'
This Hysterical campaign is not unlike the backing of not-"HeroQuest", among the shadiest KS to launch in a while. I wonder if complaints will see it booted of KS. Anyhow, if it does Ponzi o produce AvP, that's not so bad - the can gets kicked down the road, and AvP might have the retail draw to actually drive adequate post-KS revenue to enable PanzerFauste.
At the very least kick the can down the road far enough that I can get what I paid for and bail out of this sinking ship before it goes below water. Make it somebody elses problem to deal with.
Great pics Morikun. I love to see pics here, as 1) it's completely relevant to the thread and 2) I don't stray very far form this page here, so I'd not see them unless they're spotlighted in a post.
The only people who wind me up regarding this game are Prodos.
Also brilliant to see the Battle Systems terrain. I'm also looking at using the AvP in their Urban Apocalypse kickstarter that still has 6 days left. Loads of AvP potential from imposing Art Deco building containing lab with Alien infection through to Predators hunting through Urban Apocalypse terrain and both would work really well in the new Shanty Town add on.
Guys,
Be aware this is being made by the same people as Prodos and is heavily involved with Prodos owners.
Prodos have yet to provide backers with their AVP KS rewards.
I pledged £240 and years later have got nothing.
The AVP board game was made using KS funds and is in the shops!
But most backers have got nothing.
AVP has been in my local FLGs for months... I have nothing
If you back this or anything to do with Prodos you are leaving yourself open to a world of disappointment.
Gary Keenan
(AKA Panic...)
@ all : thank you so much for your kind words ^^' I'm very glad that you like my stalkers !!
Next will be Infants alien but before, we in Warmania (the best french minis forum), have a little contest like "armies on parade" in Frostgrave : one of my stalkers, the one with the Temple base, would count as a summoned demon ^^
I really hope that you'll receive your box very soon !! (All the backers indeed)
fwiw, Heisler on the Reaper forums reposted a clarification of Prodos' and Hysterical Game's relationship.
IMO, though, it's reasonable to expect backers to be cautious when you have ANY relationship with a botched-up KS, so a creator should straighten out this info ASAP. (Gee? Really?)
Rather than replying on a blog potential backers don't read, I'm thinking the "best of the worst" solution is to post it in the FAQ of the KS page. Any better places??
Anyone else find it interesting that Prodos, known in this cesspool of vitriolic hate for being very heavy handed when moderating anti-Prodos sentiments, has their own forum spammed and they let it stand?
It is pretty funny. I'm not sure why anyone would bother, but... there it is. Couldn't help noticing that they were all for Cialis (or whatever), maybe someone is trying to tell them to go hard?
I've finally got a response from Michal today. Supposedly he was at Essen Spiele fest so he couldn't respond to emails. You would think if you're going out of the office for a good while, you would set an automated away message up.
Prodos will be refunding me for the cost of posting the box back to them and delivering my Kickstarter box ASAP™
Yeah,
Fair point but there is a difference when you are dealing with a customer who's screen name is panic.
I posted both screen and real names in my comments.
Mocking with a dads army video might be funny.
It's much less funny when they have taken your money.
Panic wrote: Yeah,
Fair point but there is a difference when you are dealing with a customer who's screen name is panic.
I posted both screen and real names in my comments.
Mocking with a dads army video might be funny.
It's much less funny when they have taken your money.
I'll be posting every few days on the comment section.
And in every single update they send out.
The same message.
Panic 12 minutes ago
Nope,
Not crazy just angry.
These guys took my money to make a product are selling it to other people at retail before giving me my copies.
Just wait guys in two years you'll be in the same boat! Out of pocket no minis and looking at this product you funded the molds for being sold in your FLGs.
Being mocked by Rob and his friends.
Twice now they have insulted me.
All I'm asking is for my product or money back!!
A product that's been on sale for months now.
You can go on the AVP web store and they will send it out within a week!
But if your a KS backer they just mock you.
Seriously guys you have nothing to gain from backing this KS and everything to risk.
Just cancel your pledges and wait for retail.
Gary.
I think he's on the other Prodos director and part owner kickstarter with the fantasy WW2 hybrid setting, Panzerfauste. Since there is actual money at potential risk there, they seem more willing to at least respond until the pledges stop (even if it is apparently only to make jokes at his expense).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
angelofvengeance wrote: I've finally got a response from Michal today. Supposedly he was at Essen Spiele fest so he couldn't respond to emails. You would think if you're going out of the office for a good while, you would set an automated away message up.
Prodos will be refunding me for the cost of posting the box back to them and delivering my Kickstarter box ASAP™
Congrats on the update and potential resolution. Let us know if they *ACTUALLY* go through with giving you your money back for the return shipping to correct THEIR mistake. I have my doubts they will given their actions over the past 10-12 months. It feels like Prodos' promises aren't worth the paper they're printed on and since you got an email response... well... you can catch my drift...
warboss wrote: I think he's on the other Prodos director and part owner kickstarter with the fantasy WW2 hybrid setting, Panzerfauste. Since there is actual money at potential risk there, they seem more willing to at least respond until the pledges stop (even if it is apparently only to make jokes at his expense).
He posted in the Dakka topic for Panzerfauste as well. Interesting he chooses to address issues and distance himself from Prodos there and yet ignores the AvP thread.
If "Prodos" is indeed 'joking' with "Don't Panic!" comments over on the "Panzerfauste" Kickstarter, well, that's a bit of bad form, isn't it?
I suppose they might be upset that he's there possibly to 'raise awareness/get some action on his AvP pledge', and maybe they see that as 'trolling', but still, not a good Customer Service decision.
warboss wrote: I think he's on the other Prodos director and part owner kickstarter with the fantasy WW2 hybrid setting, Panzerfauste. Since there is actual money at potential risk there, they seem more willing to at least respond until the pledges stop (even if it is apparently only to make jokes at his expense).
He posted in the Dakka topic for Panzerfauste as well. Interesting he chooses to address issues and distance himself from Prodos there and yet ignores the AvP thread.
I think it is more interesting that Rob chooses to state his status on his professional LinkedIn page as director and part owner at Prodos when it is convienent for his career and chooses to deflate it down to employee and shareholder when he wants to distance himself from the debacle that he has been part and parcel of. He is the Sales Director, the guy literally responsible for managing the redistribution of AVP boxes that should have gone to kickstarter backers who paid years ago instead to retail outlets and online customers who just paid hours to days earlier... but he's just an employee and he's only following orders! Sorry, you can't have it both ways. He is either lying in that thread or is lying on his LinkedIn page. He took off the top of the page mention of "director" but it's still plastered elsewhere on the front page... and I suspect it'll return eventually once the pledging phase of Panzerfauste is over. It's just more of the same "say one thing, do another, and admit nothing until you're caught red handed" that Prodos has been doing with this project.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
angelofvengeance wrote: I got the money back almost instantly this morning. Got a PayPal notification 5-10 mins after I told them how much postage was, so that was good.
In that case, congrats you squeaky wheel! I applaud Prodos for finally doing the right thing and hope that they do the same without public shaming first for others who just want the CORRECT rewards for their pledges.
It would be nice if they refunded postage for everyone without folks having to beg/threaten. In fact, they should just announce it is their policy to do so and state how to make it happen.
CptJake wrote: It would be nice if they refunded postage for everyone without folks having to beg/threaten. In fact, they should just announce it is their policy to do so and state how to make it happen.
There was no begging/threatening involved (for me,at least) lol.
CptJake wrote: It would be nice if they refunded postage for everyone without folks having to beg/threaten. In fact, they should just announce it is their policy to do so and state how to make it happen.
There was no begging/threatening involved (for me,at least) lol.
Pacific wrote: For those of you that have received your wave 1 pledges, did you get any kind of notification email or was it just their waiting on the doorstep?
I got a dispatch email but that's all. No tracking number.
So after discussing this on the united kingdom colonial marine page and being told buy one member that he was annoyed that he hadnt got his free promo set that prodos said they would send out for him to review. And me saying try waiting 2yrs after actually paying for some he received 3 yes 3 ! Free promo sets from prodos today ! So apparently sending out free copies takes priority over backers aswell now .
*Most* Kickstarters don't run into as many...problems as this one though!
Here's a mini-update of sorts:
Warzone Resurrection wrote: Hi all, Prodos here just to be clear, Prodos is providing services of 3D and casting to several customers. One of them is Hysterical Games, and at this stage this is the only connection with us. Rob is our employee, same as Mark from World Forged Games (Devil's Run KS) was our business partner.
In bouh cases, Rob and Mark, wanted to find their own way into miniatures business, aside from Prodos.
As for fulfilling our own KS, the story is long, but to cut it to something short, we are providing services to make profit to cover waves of shipping we have committed to on AvP KS. The delays in development and several changes during development process went with costings beyond our expectations and now we are fixing it.
Regardless of what you may think about Prodos, without our services, more than 12 KS would be in deep trouble with miniatures casting.
There is a difference between Rob IS a current employee and Mark WAS a business partner. A current employe/stockholder/self claimed director running a KS for a different company and trying to downplay his connections is shady. Especially as he has actively been the mouth piece for Prodos.
CptJake wrote: There is a difference between Rob IS a current employee and Mark WAS a business partner. A current employe/stockholder/self claimed director running a KS for a different company and trying to downplay his connections is shady. Especially as he has actively been the mouth piece for Prodos.
Hi CptJake, just to straighten up the facts: Mark WAS our business partner when he was running his KS, however post KS, decided to leave the company and fulfill his KS (Devil's Run) on his own. In fact, not sure how he is going to managed with his wife casting 14k models, but that was his decision and it's his problem now.
CptJake wrote: And the passive aggressive attack against a guy who did cut free from you.
Stay classy Prodos.
Well, divorce with Mark was not a grate deal to be hones. He has done more damage to us than you could imagine, including 60k GBP loss on our 1st KS, but let's forget about his, sorry my fault I should not be saying this, after all he must have some plan to get over the issues of making tons of models.
Warzone Resurrection wrote: Hi all Prodos here, WOW 207 pages long, that must be a record in Misc. Miniature Games.
Anyhow, an update is coming this weekend explaining a lot about Prodos and what the hell is going on with KS fulfilment.
Look forward to seeing it! Thanks for stopping by to keep us informed I know the atmosphere here generally isn't Prodos-friendly, but I appreciate any new info keeping us in the loop
Warzone Resurrection wrote: Hi all Prodos here, WOW 207 pages long, that must be a record in Misc. Miniature Games.
Anyhow, an update is coming this weekend explaining a lot about Prodos and what the hell is going on with KS fulfilment.
Nah, Palladium still has you beat by a hundred or more pages. Fun fact.. I used to use this kickstarter as an example of how to run a post funding campaign! That was a long time ago though.
CptJake wrote: And the passive aggressive attack against a guy who did cut free from you.
Stay classy Prodos.
Well, divorce with Mark was not a grate deal to be hones. He has done more damage to us than you could imagine, including 60k GBP loss on our 1st KS, but let's forget about his, sorry my fault I should not be saying this, after all he must have some plan to get over the issues of making tons of models.
CURNOW wrote: So prodos why are people getting sent free sets when backers have yet to receive their copies ?
To be hones, no idea, I'll check it tomorrow morning ... we have not been shipping any to review copies for a long time, and if it was sent it would be a retail one, but 3 of them that is really like Prodos -F up again.
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Joyboozer wrote: Why is it always someone else's fault, yet each time we still don't have our stuff?
It's our fault, bad management from start , tons of mistakes, previous KS faults repeated, fight for power in the company, doing stuff that slowed down approval process purposely, getting the team to fight between each other... stories like in a Brazilian telenovela.
We have all of this over now.
It maybe not look like, but we are really doing the best we can to pass this KS, and move on.
Thank you . Please dont take the fact people are passionate about getting their stuff as a bad thing most people just want to get their sets because they have been planning and dreaming about it for years .
CURNOW wrote: I would happily pay postage to finally get my pledge wont happen as they have no intention of sending stuff out to people now .
Well if you gave me just 1 logical reason why we would have no intention of sending stuff out to peoples, I would make you as a miniature and push for approval in FOX, just one logical reason why we would hold your stuff with no intention to ship it.
CptJake wrote: And the passive aggressive attack against a guy who did cut free from you.
Stay classy Prodos.
Well, divorce with Mark was not a grate deal to be hones. He has done more damage to us than you could imagine, including 60k GBP loss on our 1st KS, but let's forget about his, sorry my fault I should not be saying this, after all he must have some plan to get over the issues of making tons of models.
I think passion is what really gets us all in trouble. As backers, we're passionate about the franchise and excited about finally getting games set in this universe and amazing miniatures to play with. I'm sure Prodos is just as passionate about the IP and getting a successful product to market in order to fill a niche that has gone unfilled for a long time.
That passion, on both sides, leads to a lot of bad decisions and heated discussion. Hopefully we can learn from what has happened and use the experience to grow, Prodos and backers both.
Am I frustrated? Sure, everyone is, on both sides. I've come to the realisation that there's not much I can do about it and that by letting that frustration fester it is doing nothing but hurting me. The situation is what it is. Prodos will get the games out when they can and in the meantime I will enjoy the other games I play.
CURNOW wrote: Thank you . Please dont take the fact people are passionate about getting their stuff as a bad thing most people just want to get their sets because they have been planning and dreaming about it for years .
Same as we have dreamed of making this game for years and its our nightmare now.
I am not taking this as a bad thing, but really it's hard to describe how much stuff we have went through with this KS. And now we have to work even 3 times harder under 3 times more pressure to make more profit and spend it to a penny for sending KS out. Not a perfect solution I would say, but at least we don't make an another KS to fullfil previous one as some companies are forced to (or maybe we should?).
CURNOW wrote: I would happily pay postage to finally get my pledge wont happen as they have no intention of sending stuff out to people now .
Well if you gave me just 1 logical reason why we would have no intention of sending stuff out to peoples, I would make you as a miniature and push for approval in FOX, just one logical reason why we would hold your stuff with no intention to ship it.
the logical reason is you have already had our money and every backer copy sent out now is a loss to you its one less you have available to sell to retail and one less that is going to bring in new funds .why send out to backers when we have no way to do anything if you don't when you can send out to retailers who will give you new funds and repeat custom.
Sure here you go ...i don't think you will have trouble getting approval lol
Alpharius wrote: Playing Devil's Advocate, because you're in financial distress and are unable to afford to do just that?
Unfortunately, in the absence of communication and information, speculation will occur.
That isn't speculation, they have come out and said it in their updates. That was the reason they gave for going back on yet another promise and selling wave 2 retail before backers get theirs. Hopefully they sell enough retail wave 2 to finish sending backers wave 1.
It's our fault, bad management from start , tons of mistakes, previous KS faults repeated, fight for power in the company, doing stuff that slowed down approval process purposely, getting the team to fight between each other... stories like in a Brazilian telenovela.
We have all of this over now.
It maybe not look like, but we are really doing the best we can to pass this KS, and move on.
Alpharius wrote: Playing Devil's Advocate, because you're in financial distress and are unable to afford to do just that?
Unfortunately, in the absence of communication and information, speculation will occur.
True, the fact is, Prodos is a company with "mad skills and bad organisation"- I've been told at Essen and I must agree. We are small team with tons of work on our shoulders. With a million of issues to be solved every day.
Prodos is divided into 2 companies:
1st one is stand alone, self sufficient, casting power house called Archon, it's based in Poland and makes resin minis for Prodos as for other companies.
2nd is the Prodos Games, the company that sale the product world wide.
The main problem for this KS was wrong manufacturing approach and calculations, as our expectations where to get an approval in a light speed we went and produced metric tons of models (all add-ons), which mean we have frozen a tons of cash, well, we have even went beyond KS needs, just to keep people in their jobs, hoping that within 6 months it all will hit KS backers and then market... 1.6y later we are still having metric tons of add-ons collecting dust (it's approx. 750k GBP of stock)...
I really lost calculation on how much we have spent on dev of this game after 100k GBP, it definitely went beyond our predictions, constant changes, re-scultping, re-printing, re-casting delays on feedback and approval and so on, cost us time, and time = money.
I heard stories while at Esses that Fox almost killed financial other company with 2y in dev for a product. Well maybe this is why everyone stay away from their licenses.
Now we are at the stage, where we need to manufacture and sale the game to keep licensor happy and make sure we are fulfilling the KS.
In general we are trying to keep 2 parties happy at the same time (impossible i would say, but hey for prodos there is no impossible...).
Anyhow, next update will have full Prodos story, with in depth, and the plan to get there,
CURNOW wrote: I would happily pay postage to finally get my pledge wont happen as they have no intention of sending stuff out to people now .
Well if you gave me just 1 logical reason why we would have no intention of sending stuff out to peoples, I would make you as a miniature and push for approval in FOX, just one logical reason why we would hold your stuff with no intention to ship it.
the logical reason is you have already had our money and every backer copy sent out now is a loss to you its one less you have available to sell to retail and one less that is going to bring in new funds .why send out to backers when we have no way to do anything if you don't when you can send out to retailers who will give you new funds and repeat custom.
Which of them is you?
Sure here you go ...i don't think you will have trouble getting approval lol
Fraggle wrote: Is there a plan to sort out people who have received retail rather than KS copies?
Yes, collect the game from you and send replacement, i think it was explained in last update, if not then sorry. send me an email to : service@prodos.co.uk we will get that sort out.
Prodos, thank you for spending time here to answer questions and explain situations. Dakka is probably the last place you want to be addressing customers but I appreciate it.
We’d also like to take this opportunity to tell you all that there will be 1 item for each faction made available for pre-order to our wholesale accounts relatively soon, with the intent of release in the middle of October.
Firestorm now have 6 wave 2 items up having added the Crusher, Warriors and Predalien.
Prodos - I've emailed Michal 3 times regarding it and also been in contact with Rob (who said he'd look into it but obviously has other distractions with his KS in fairness) but no response yet.
Fraggle wrote: Is there a plan to sort out people who have received retail rather than KS copies?
Yes, collect the game from you and send replacement, i think it was explained in last update, if not then sorry. send me an email to : service@prodos.co.uk we will get that sort out.
How do you handle refunding the postage to return the game? That was not explained in the last update.
Panic wrote: Yeah,
NotProdos replies to my message on their new KS Saying 'Don't Panic'...
Super cool mock your old customers screen name while roping up new customers!
Panic...
Didn't CMON also have the "Don't Panic raffle" in your honour after the original Zombicide campaign?
Classy quote from Prodoa in the Panzerfauste thread today -
Hi CptJake, just to straighten up the facts: Mark WAS our business partner when he was running his KS, however post KS, decided to leave the company and fulfill his KS (Devil's Run) on his own. In fact, not sure how he is going to managed with his wife casting 14k models, but that was his decision and it's his problem now.
[/quoute]
Fraggle wrote: Is there a plan to sort out people who have received retail rather than KS copies?
Yes, collect the game from you and send replacement, i think it was explained in last update, if not then sorry. send me an email to : service@prodos.co.uk we will get that sort out.
How do you handle refunding the postage to return the game? That was not explained in the last update.
We will collect it, or if you send it back we will pay for postage.
I think it is more interesting that Rob chooses to state his status on his professional LinkedIn page as director and part owner at Prodos when it is convienent for his career and chooses to deflate it down to employee and shareholder when he wants to distance himself from the debacle that he has been part and parcel of. He is the Sales Director, the guy literally responsible for managing the redistribution of AVP boxes that should have gone to kickstarter backers who paid years ago instead to retail outlets and online customers who just paid hours to days earlier... but he's just an employee and he's only following orders! Sorry, you can't have it both ways. He is either lying in that thread or is lying on his LinkedIn page. He took off the top of the page mention of "director" but it's still plastered elsewhere on the front page... and I suspect it'll return eventually once the pledging phase of Panzerfauste is over. It's just more of the same "say one thing, do another, and admit nothing until you're caught red handed" that Prodos has been doing with this project.
Strangely enough according to Experian Rob is not and has not ever been a Director of Prodos games and that information comes from companies house so you cannot fake it.
CptJake wrote: And the passive aggressive attack against a guy who did cut free from you.
Stay classy Prodos.
Well, divorce with Mark was not a grate deal to be hones. He has done more damage to us than you could imagine, including 60k GBP loss on our 1st KS, but let's forget about his, sorry my fault I should not be saying this, after all he must have some plan to get over the issues of making tons of models.
Warzone?
Probably not needed, but a word of caution when reading anything posted by the 'Prodos Overlord', unfortunately his grip on numbers and the truth are not as most would consider normal.
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Classy quote from Prodoa in the Panzerfauste thread today -
Hi CptJake, just to straighten up the facts: Mark WAS our business partner when he was running his KS, however post KS, decided to leave the company and fulfill his KS (Devil's Run) on his own. In fact, not sure how he is going to managed with his wife casting 14k models, but that was his decision and it's his problem now.
[/quoute]
Same with this one. Current numbers (via backerkit) 10k models, for Devil's Run. We are working to a schedule and our team is doing a great job.
Anyhow, next update will have full Prodos story, with in depth, and the plan to get there,
Thanks for posting that as it is both very needed and long overdue. If you'd like to see what NOT to do in that type of an update, please check out the Palladium Robotech link below to their 19 pages of nothing "update" that was supposed to do the same. I'd love to be able to start using AVP as an example of how to reform a troubled kickstarter just like I used to use it as an example of how to properly run a post fulfillment campaign over a year ago.
19 pages (according to their count) of history lessons, a little blaming, finally telling a tiny bit of truth that their partner already made known almost a YEAR earlier, empty unfulfilled promises of a restart in communication, and no real plan to move forward but special focus on their detailed plan of what they want us to buy next sight unseen months ahead of time which would be the real reason they finally graced us with an update at that time. If issues are aired and blame assigned, do so with clear details (not vague statements) and how you'll avoid the same mistake in the future. The key is to clearly explain how you got to the pit you're in, how you're going to climb out, AND how you're going to avoid further pits like it in the future. 1 out of 3 isn't good enough as evidenced by Palladium's so called "update".
After the mistakes made in this campaign, it may not sound like it but most angry backers will appreciate the above. Think of it as ripping the band aid off quickly. It may hurt intially but it's better in the long run and less likely to make you wuss out half way.
"There is also great news for North and South American Kickstarter backers, in that Ninja Division will be handling your Kickstarter shipments. They have kindly agreed to handle the Wave 1 fulfillment of the Alien vs Predator Kickstarter for those territories in one great big push during the month of August. This means that everyone will get their products at roughly the same time, rather than the staggered shipments which would occur with the fulfillment handled by Prodos Games direct."
I'd love to know the truth behind what really happened to this relationship with Ninja Division. But alas...earwax.
Well, deeds speak louder than words, and only time will tell if Prodos can really amend.
Still, you have to admit, that's more communication and honest "Ok, we fethed up" admission on the last page alone than PB ever did (not that much of a feat, I'll concede), and posting on Dakka takes a fair amount of courage. We'll see what happens next, but you gotta respect that.
CptJake wrote: And the passive aggressive attack against a guy who did cut free from you.
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Classy quote from Prodoa in the Panzerfauste thread today -
Hi CptJake, just to straighten up the facts: Mark WAS our business partner when he was running his KS, however post KS, decided to leave the company and fulfill his KS (Devil's Run) on his own. In fact, not sure how he is going to managed with his wife casting 14k models, but that was his decision and it's his problem now.
[/quoute]
Same with this one. Current numbers (via backerkit) 10k models, for Devil's Run. We are working to a schedule and our team is doing a great job.
Not so sure Mark, I go by the numbers you have posted on your KS:
According to "my grip on numbers" is 15020 models out of which you have 129 thus far, but again I may be wrong in "my grips on numbers
Anyhow, next update will have full Prodos story, with in depth, and the plan to get there,
Thanks for posting that as it is both very needed and long overdue. If you'd like to see what NOT to do in that type of an update, please check out the Palladium Robotech link below to their 19 pages of nothing "update" that was supposed to do the same. I'd love to be able to start using AVP as an example of how to reform a troubled kickstarter just like I used to use it as an example of how to properly run a post fulfillment campaign over a year ago.
19 pages (according to their count) of history lessons, a little blaming, finally telling a tiny bit of truth that their partner already made known almost a YEAR earlier, empty unfulfilled promises of a restart in communication, and no real plan to move forward but special focus on their detailed plan of what they want us to buy next sight unseen months ahead of time which would be the real reason they finally graced us with an update at that time. If issues are aired and blame assigned, do so with clear details (not vague statements) and how you'll avoid the same mistake in the future. The key is to clearly explain how you got to the pit you're in, how you're going to climb out, AND how you're going to avoid further pits like it in the future. 1 out of 3 isn't good enough as evidenced by Palladium's so called "update".
After the mistakes made in this campaign, it may not sound like it but most angry backers will appreciate the above. Think of it as ripping the band aid off quickly. It may hurt intially but it's better in the long run and less likely to make you wuss out half way.
Thanks for advice, that is not our intention, if there is any fault its pure Prodos decisions, meaning mine, no one else.
Thanks for the concern, but the numbers you have shared here include models for the Post-KS commercial release (that was stated in the earlier updates (but to be far we need to make that clearer for the casual observer). Take the first line we have approximately 550 main games sold, and then some HA bikes in the HA Starter set. Both these include 2 bikes..so for KS we need approx 1200. We intend to send out to our KS before we hit retail. Hence the KS completion target is approx 1200 rather than 2400. Additionally we launched Backerkit on the 5th. Now at the 15th and with 60% completion we are getting a much better understanding of numbers. Our predictions have proved mainly in the right (some things (such as the rig) have done a lot better than we thought, but others less so) our sandbagging and realignment show that the model count of 10k + an average of 50% for Post KS to be correct. But for February, our deadline, we are near on perfect timing (again as we have 3 or 4 other people we can pull in in Jan and Feb) and we won't be hitting retail until we have looked after the people that have made the game happen.
Warzone Resurrection, If you have any more concerns let me know and I will try and alleviate them for you. In the mean time good luck with wave 2 and 3 (and 4 now right?) of AvP, and helping all those other KS meet their own deadlines. If you ever get overloaded, please let me know because we can always increase capacity to support you.
HudsonD wrote: Well, deeds speak louder than words, and only time will tell if Prodos can really amend.
Still, you have to admit, that's more communication and honest "Ok, we fethed up" admission on the last page alone than PB ever did (not that much of a feat, I'll concede), and posting on Dakka takes a fair amount of courage. We'll see what happens next, but you gotta respect that.
I agree. The cynic in me would point out that this refound openness is coincidentally timed with a fundraising campaign by a senior prodos director/owner/employee/shareholder. As you said, deeds not words will determine how the community responds although the reopening of honest communication is a good start.
WFG DRMR wrote: Thanks for the concern, but the numbers you have shared here include models for the Post-KS commercial release (that was stated in the earlier updates (but to be far we need to make that clearer for the casual observer). Take the first line we have approximately 550 main games sold, and then some HA bikes in the HA Starter set. Both these include 2 bikes..so for KS we need approx 1200. We intend to send out to our KS before we hit retail. Hence the KS completion target is approx 1200 rather than 2400. Additionally we launched Backerkit on the 5th. Now at the 15th and with 60% completion we are getting a much better understanding of numbers. Our predictions have proved mainly in the right (some things (such as the rig) have done a lot better than we thought, but others less so) our sandbagging and realignment show that the model count of 10k + an average of 50% for Post KS to be correct. But for February, our deadline, we are near on perfect timing (again as we have 3 or 4 other people we can pull in in Jan and Feb).
Warzone Resurrection, If you have any more concerns let me know and I will try and alleviate them for you. In the mean time good luck with wave 2 and 3 (and 4 now right?) of AvP, and helping all those other KS meet their own deadlines. If you ever get overloaded, please let me know because we can always increase capacity to support you.
Thanks for explanation, not much f concern, not my circus not my monkeys, however I could assume that 39 SKU, large models = large moulds and 10k models we, with our capacity would make this ,maybe in a month, that's with 8 experienced peoples out of 30 we have on manufacturing.
No worries with Capacity at Prodos, we are just fine, however I am more than happy to come back to this discussion in Feb.
Firstly, respect to Warzone Resurrection that he is coming to post here. I hope that the thread can remain civil and that the mods are keeping a close eye on things to keep the pitchforks and flaming torches kept under control.
Secondly, the reason that the pitchforks and flaming torches are present at all is simply down to this fact: That people who pledged money for the basic wave 1 KS have still not received their items! This is compounded by Prodos newsletters that now seem to focus on wave 2 and retail release news.
My suggestion: Every update, please include some kind of wave 1 shipping update (including numbers shipped, for EU, US & rest of world) as the first news item in that update. So the people who are still waiting for their wave 1 pledges know that they have not been forgotten about and that there is some progress.
If Prodos must continue to selling to retail while KS backers still wait for wave 1, at least give those people as much consideration as possible.
Hi there, just quick one, as I just have seen a post on facebook that I have been insulting backers here.
It was not my intention to insult anyone, so please accept my apology if my post was read that way. I'll go through the posts and make amendments if needed. Thanks and I am really sorry for occurred situation.
Thank you 'Prodos' for finally providing some information. I am aware of you're opinion of Dakka, but this site has been the only place to give constant updates and collate all of you're disjointed communications (for which I, and I suspect many non-KS backers, am grateful for).
I appreciate you're frankness and hope you manage to steer your company through it's current troubles. However that does not change the fact that over the last 12+ months, Prodos has acted in a very unprofessional manner towards the supporters that made the product possible in the first place, and words, no matter how honest, mean little at this point. Until I or people I know recieve the goods they paid for, I will continue to view any communications as spin until proven otherwise.
I sincerely hope you are able to resolve this chapter of AvP quickly, to both calm us grumpy backers and to allow you're company to move forward and rebuild it's reputation.
Yeah,
It certainly is fishy that a Prodos account starts giving lip service after a years silence...
Why could that be???
Surely it's not because Robs other KS is live?
Rob just send us our stuff.
I don't promise you that recieving my goods will make me stop telling people it's a bad idea to back you.
But it can't hurt your chances.
Prodos - Ive forwarded my email to exchange retail for KS to your services email (in addition to previously sending to Rob and Michal) so eagerly anticipate your response!
Warzone Resurrection wrote: Hi there, just quick one, as I just have seen a post on facebook that I have been insulting backers here.
It was not my intention to insult anyone, so please accept my apology if my post was read that way. I'll go through the posts and make amendments if needed. Thanks and I am really sorry for occurred situation.
To be honest, it is hard to read 'cesspit of vitriol and hate' in a positive way...
Panic wrote: Yeah,
It certainly is fishy that a Prodos account starts giving lip service after a years silence...
Why could that be???
Surely it's not because Robs other KS is live?
Rob just send us our stuff.
I don't promise you that recieving my goods will make me stop telling people it's a bad idea to back you.
But it can't hurt your chances.
Panic...
Mr. Panic, how you do expect us to send you your rewards if you have not updated your name and surname in you AvP Pledge manager?????? We cannot send to "nicknames". Thanks
If I really respect the fact that you finally come to Dakka dakka in the view to give some explanations, I still have some questions/advice.
- You sent me retail version instead of KS version (I would be lucky whereas lot of other backers who must wait for their box).
Unfortunately for me, as you didn't precized anything about shipping costs, I prefered open it and start painting it (you certainly noticed the result)... I didn't want to lose more money and wait more for my box.
I mailed Michal and Jarek for the pred tiles... But except "I keep it in mind" from Michal, no information since many weeks...
Now, add-ons seems to be available... For retailers. And about us ?
Other question : you know I work with Monsieur H and CCCP on the french translation. If you give the link to the french rules, you never answered us about the french cards. Do you allow us to publish it ? We asked you for that many many times... And all that we got were a big silence. Why ?
I'm really REALLY waiting for your answer since you write here.
Warzone Resurrection wrote: Hi there, just quick one, as I just have seen a post on facebook that I have been insulting backers here.
It was not my intention to insult anyone, so please accept my apology if my post was read that way. I'll go through the posts and make amendments if needed. Thanks and I am really sorry for occurred situation.
To be honest, it is hard to read 'cesspit of vitriol and hate' in a positive way...
To be honest, it is hard to read any of this new comms from Prodos as anything other than a reaction to Rob's new KS project catching heat.
If I really respect the fact that you finally come to Dakka dakka in the view to give some explanations, I still have some questions/advice.
- You sent me retail version instead of KS version (I would be lucky whereas lot of other backers who must wait for their box).
Unfortunately for me, as you didn't precized anything about shipping costs, I prefered open it and start painting it (you certainly noticed the result)... I didn't want to lose more money and wait more for my box.
I mailed Michal and Jarek for the pred tiles... But except "I keep it in mind" from Michal, no information since many weeks...
Now, add-ons seems to be available... For retailers. And about us ?
Other question : you know I work with Monsieur H and CCCP on the french translation. If you give the link to the french rules, you never answered us about the french cards. Do you allow us to publish it ? We asked you for that many many times... And all that we got were a big silence. Why ?
I'm really REALLY waiting for your answer since you write here.
Serviteur,
Morikun
So as for French, we are not manufacturing it as have not reached minimum French orders number to cover an expensive low count printing materials. However as for cards, it's good call we will make them available online.
That's not a problem, we are covering shipping cost (paypal payment for it). If you don't want the printed components, just send them back to us.
As for release of the materials, under contract we can only do it.
Warzone Resurrection wrote: Hi there, just quick one, as I just have seen a post on facebook that I have been insulting backers here.
It was not my intention to insult anyone, so please accept my apology if my post was read that way. I'll go through the posts and make amendments if needed. Thanks and I am really sorry for occurred situation.
To be honest, it is hard to read 'cesspit of vitriol and hate' in a positive way...
To be honest, it is hard to read any of this new comms from Prodos as anything other than a reaction to Rob's new KS project catching heat.
Actually, as we are making services for them, they have a right to ask what is happening. Rob was asking about Panic... we have been checking if we have shipped his product or not, and find out that his PM is not updated... This is the case to many, many backers... we still have approx 50 from USA that we within real name and surname and another approx. 200 nicknames worldwide. Once we clear out real accounts we will be moving to nickname-ones and notify every person individual, ether by mail or phone.
So as for French, we are not manufacturing it as have not reached minimum French orders number to cover an expensive low count printing materials. However as for cards, it's good call we will make them available online.
That's not a problem, we are covering shipping cost (paypal payment for it). If you don't want the printed components, just send them back to us.
As for release of the materials, under contract we can only do it.
Thank you very much for your quick answer.
Nevertheless, I don't understand : Ok, you haven't reached the minimum french orders... But if I send you the english printed components (rulebook + cards)... You will cover the shipping cost by paypal... But what will you give me instead if you can't print in french ? Excuse me I really don't understand what you mean.
Warzone Resurrection wrote: Mr. Panic, how you do expect us to send you your rewards if you have not updated your name and surname in you AvP Pledge manager?????? We cannot send to "nicknames". Thanks
*snip*
Reds8n.
lol so you're seriously saying the only reason you haven't mailed me any of my reward is that the pledge manager didn't have my name?
all you had to do was ask!
I've emailed you privately quite a few time using my full name.
But thanks for opening the pledge manager.
Progress!!
Pledge manager updated! Any chance it gets processed?
Panic... <---GARY KEENAN
Update:
Rob says he's called the Local Police for defamation of character!
Will call them in a few minutes to confirm and defend myself.
Panic, be the man and walk away. I think you've made your point over in Panzerfaust, and harassing Rob really isn't going to end well no matter how you look at it.
Let's see how Jarek's promised update pans out eh? I know we're all angry about what's happened, but we should still be grown up enough to give him the opportunity to follow up on what he has said over the past 3 pages with some clarification of the situation, and then in turn see if he can live up to whatever promises he then makes.
Warzone Resurrection wrote: Mr. Panic, how you do expect us to send you your rewards if you have not updated your name and surname in you AvP Pledge manager?????? We cannot send to "nicknames". Thanks
*snip*
Reds8n.
lol so you're seriously saying the only reason you haven't mailed me any of my reward is that the pledge manager didn't have my name?
all you had to do was ask!
I've emailed you privately quite a few time using my full name.
But thanks for opening the pledge manager.
Progress!!
Pledge manager updated! Any chance it gets processed?
Panic... <---GARY KEENAN
Update:
Rob says he's called the Local Police for defamation of character!
Will call them in a few minutes to confirm and defend myself.
Hi there, right so, there is a reason why we have been informing backers in almost every update that there in a need to have PM updated. Our PM won't let us to print it out unless we have all boxes ticked.
Also, as I stated in the post above, we are going from top to bottom of backers leaving, the ones that have not updated their KSPMs - I think this is approach taken by all KS creators?
While a Prodos face is present, what is happening with the Predator tiles?
I paid for them to be an add-on, but as I understand it they will now be given free to backers that want them. Does that mean I'll get the money I paid for the tiles refunded (and still get the tiles) or will I receive credit to be used on another item of the same value (a powerloader for example)?
Bluehammer wrote: While a Prodos face is present, what is happening with the Predator tiles?
I paid for them to be an add-on, but as I understand it they will now be given free to backers that want them. Does that mean I'll get the money I paid for the tiles refunded (and still get the tiles) or will I receive credit to be used on another item of the same value (a powerloader for example)?
Coming to us from printers, pictures to follow tomorrow.
So as for French, we are not manufacturing it as have not reached minimum French orders number to cover an expensive low count printing materials. However as for cards, it's good call we will make them available online.
That's not a problem, we are covering shipping cost (paypal payment for it). If you don't want the printed components, just send them back to us.
As for release of the materials, under contract we can only do it.
Thank you very much for your quick answer.
Nevertheless, I don't understand : Ok, you haven't reached the minimum french orders... But if I send you the english printed components (rulebook + cards)... You will cover the shipping cost by paypal... But what will you give me instead if you can't print in french ? Excuse me I really don't understand what you mean.
Serviteur,
Morikun
Sorry at this stage we only have English as KS, unless we make French, but that will be retail version.
biggusdoggus wrote: Panic, be the man and walk away. I think you've made your point over in Panzerfaust, and harassing Rob really isn't going to end well no matter how you look at it.
I'm a trade union representative with access to solicitors.
Will call the police and see what he's accused me of and take it from there.
Bluehammer wrote: While a Prodos face is present, what is happening with the Predator tiles?
I paid for them to be an add-on, but as I understand it they will now be given free to backers that want them. Does that mean I'll get the money I paid for the tiles refunded (and still get the tiles) or will I receive credit to be used on another item of the same value (a powerloader for example)?
Coming to us from printers, pictures to follow tomorrow.
Bluehammer wrote: While a Prodos face is present, what is happening with the Predator tiles?
I paid for them to be an add-on, but as I understand it they will now be given free to backers that want them. Does that mean I'll get the money I paid for the tiles refunded (and still get the tiles) or will I receive credit to be used on another item of the same value (a powerloader for example)?
Coming to us from printers, pictures to follow tomorrow.
Do you care to actually answer his question? Others of us are in the same situation and an answer would be good.
Sorry, I have missed that, anyhow, we are not giving them out for free, it was an offer to customers that have received retail copy of AvP and where willing to keep them.
biggusdoggus wrote: Panic, be the man and walk away. I think you've made your point over in Panzerfaust, and harassing Rob really isn't going to end well no matter how you look at it.
I'm a trade union representative with access to solicitors.
Will call the police and see what he's accused me of and take it from there.
If Rob want to email me to sort this out he can.
Panic...
Could we stay on AvP topic, if you have a personal issue with Rob, please call him. and thanks for updating your pledge manager. Finally we can send you your product.
If I were Rob, I would definitely call all of this off. If he is trying to have Panic charged with libel defamation, he will likely lose. Sorry to say but a solicitor would have a field day with this! His better bet would be to get Panic looked after (as well as the rest of us) and then he wouldn't have to worry about people calling him out. Libel, is only libel, if it isn't true, which in this case, it is.
Sorry, I have missed that, anyhow, we are not giving them out for free, it was an offer to customers that have received retail copy of AvP and where willing to keep them.
Sorry, I have missed that, anyhow, we are not giving them out for free, it was an offer to customers that have received retail copy of AvP and where willing to keep them.
yeah,
I'm honestly not sure what I've been accused of as the Police don't tell you that.
Only that it's not a police matter and is a civil matter.
Me and Rob can talk this out or the solicitors can.
Anyways.
I've already raised awareness of the Prodos link. which wouldn't be a concern If prodos had delivered to backers instead of retail and reviewers!
Now that Prodos have begun to talk to me I'm closer to achieving my main goal of getting my pledge or a refund.
update;
Due to a complaint, Kickstarter blocked me from that KS page.
Spoiler:
I gave Kickstarter a full rundown of events in my reply.
Links to Rob's Interviews and Linked in page... it's unclear what his position is.
He tells people he part owns Prodos Games and is a Director and that he was one of the four guys who came up with AVP idea.
Now he says he's just an employee. He was told that he would be made director but Prodos broke the promise.
I also requested that they cancel the KS under the grounds that Rob is too heavily involved in a KS that isn't yet complete and in trouble.
It also seems funny that they posted a link to this photo.
So my pledge manager was open AGAIN, I've closed it AGAIN today. I'm sure prodos will be able to despatch me the boxed game and available wave 2 add ons by the end of the week seeing how on top of things they are.
Could we stay on AvP topic, if you have a personal issue with Rob, please call him. and thanks for updating your pledge manager. Finally we can send you your product.
Any chance you could send mine too, or am I better off winding Rob up directly to get action?
Could we stay on AvP topic, if you have a personal issue with Rob, please call him. and thanks for updating your pledge manager. Finally we can send you your product.
Any chance you could send mine too, or am I better off winding Rob up directly to get action?
Me too please!
I changed my profile pic to a Face Huggered John Hurt to celebrate the launch of the AvP KS
Also, Panic can you please stop trolling them already? We'd rather Prodos didn't collapse before we get our dollies...
Well, I was not aware that KS can block some accounts.
No worries about us collapsing, however it's a bit like closed circle, more heat is on us via services we provide... less profit is made (lost or cancelled contracts) , meaning slower we ship KS stuff, as the profit we make on sales/services is used to cover shipping costs, more about that in tomorrows update + we will be showing new releases in Video form.
Also, Panic can you please stop trolling them already? We'd rather Prodos didn't collapse before we get our dollies...
Well, I was not aware that KS can block some accounts.
No worries about us collapsing, however it's a bit like closed circle, more heat is on us via services we provide... less profit is made (lost or cancelled contracts) , meaning slower we ship KS stuff, as the profit we make on sales/services is used to cover shipping costs, more about that in tomorrows update + we will be showing new releases in Video form.
Want me to take you even remotely seriously Prodos ?
Here's what you have to do (on top of shipping what I paid for, and at this point have fully written of): Close the -ing pledge manager and stop re-opening it.
I pledged and paid for what I wanted, I have no intention of adding anything, or giving you any more money since it would only be wasted.
Since you use "the PM was open" as an excuse no to ship what I paid for, re-open it randomly, make no attempt at communicating that it was re-opened, and don't seems to re-close it promptly, it's rather clear that the goal of re-opening the PM is not customer service, it's to have an excuse not to ship.
mrondeau wrote: WClose the -ing pledge manager and stop re-opening it.
In reference to Pledge manager being opened, closed, opened. You will not have to re-close it, they will do it automatically when they move to shipping items. However verifying that your pledge manager has an actual first name, last name instead of a nickname is a thing and verifying the shipping address is complete.
mrondeau wrote: WClose the -ing pledge manager and stop re-opening it.
In reference to Pledge manager being opened, closed, opened. You will not have to re-close it, they will do it automatically when they move to shipping items. However verifying that your pledge manager has an actual first name, last name instead of a nickname is a thing and verifying the shipping address is complete.
Doesn't that conflict with what they've told backers privately multiple times? i.e. we didn't ship because of the open pledge manager (that we opened and didn't tell you... again...) You can hopefully see why that would be raised as an issue.
mrondeau wrote: WClose the -ing pledge manager and stop re-opening it.
In reference to Pledge manager being opened, closed, opened. You will not have to re-close it, they will do it automatically when they move to shipping items. However verifying that your pledge manager has an actual first name, last name instead of a nickname is a thing and verifying the shipping address is complete.
Doesn't that conflict with what they've told backers privately multiple times? i.e. we didn't ship because of the open pledge manager (that we opened and didn't tell you... again...) You can hopefully see why that would be raised as an issue.
Yes, you are correct, that was an issue at the beginning. In order to close down PM you needed to make sure that your balance is 0. Currently if you are not wishing to add anything it wont make any deference to you.
I've seen now you commenting a few times about peoples pledge manager not being updated with the proper information. Are you contacting people directly about this issue and letting them know there is an issue with there pledge manager? I know there was an issuer previously with US backers having to insert certain information because the pledge manager wasn't recording the information properly. Is this still the case?
Doesn't that conflict with what they've told backers privately multiple times? i.e. we didn't ship because of the open pledge manager (that we opened and didn't tell you... again...) You can hopefully see why that would be raised as an issue.
Yes, you are correct, that was an issue at the beginning. In order to close down PM you needed to make sure that your balance is 0. Currently if you are not wishing to add anything it wont make any deference to you.
So I joined Dakka Dakka to comment on the AvP KS as it appears to be the only place to get answers.
I have followed all the instructions given by Prodos to receive my KS.
Had the galling experience of seeing the retail game on sale at one of the local games conventions in Sydney.
Sent off an email to Rob & Michal, which Michal replied
Hi,
your game will be send out at beginning of October.
Cheers
Checking the PM every day & it still reads AWAITING. Where does this leave me, besides angry.
I may become one of the LUCKY ONES who will receive Wave 1 & 2 at the same time, but not holding my breath.
As a contrast I have backed the Conan game on their KS & have been updated with information at all stages of ANY change that will effect my delivery.
Will just leave my name here in hope that it gets noticed & action taken
Rob Ottelli
Thank you Prodos for joining this thread.
I received retail version as a backer but I decided to keep it and get offered predator tiles as a compensation. I sent an email to Michal about it but he never replied.
My question is how do you keep track of all the people who would like to get those extra predator tiles? Still waiting for some confirmation...actually any confirmation.
believes them anymore)
