I think things will change somewhat in seventh, but it's pretty clear that eldar are still top of the pile. Daemons are still a great codex, and grey knights only got better with the new edition. I just think it's a miracle eldar players ever manage to lose. That's not a comment on eldar players at all mind you, just that the eldar codex has all the best tools to do whatever you need it to.
There is no data available for 7th yet, but some things are very clear:
Jink is worse now: Eldar and Tau will be weaker than they were at the end of 6th.
AV14 is better now: SM, SMC, Necrons will be better than they were at the end of 6th.
There's also something about Psychic but you need to get those details from someone else
Lastly, I believe Astra Militarum is a force to reckon with, simply because of Creed and the BRB's Strategy Warlord Traits (I would pay 200+ points for Creed if I could).
Either way, you will not know for sure until the 7th ed dust settles, give it a few months of tournaments and it will be more or less figured out.
Not sure that jink is worse, particularly for eldar. Being able to jink without having moved and getting a bette cover save is a big deal, plus so many twin linked weapons make it less of an issue. Good luck trying to kill a wave serpent at range now!
Vomikron Noxis wrote: Not sure that jink is worse, particularly for eldar. Being able to jink without having moved and getting a bette cover save is a big deal, plus so many twin linked weapons make it less of an issue. Good luck trying to kill a wave serpent at range now!
Eldar have been moving their skimmers every turn since 4th edition, and that gave them defense without losing anything.
Now we can choose to use that defense, still move anyway because we have to, and lose 66% of our DPS.
To avoid losing any DPS, we are now forced to seek cover like every other vehicle in 40K, thereby making Jink an anecdotal special rule where it used to be the trademark of Skimmers: having cover save in the open and thus more freedom of movement.
If you think that's better, then perhaps you also think losing is better than winning ?
Ignore morgoth please, his gimmick is going to every thread and turning it into a 4 page argument where he refuses to concede that Eldar are ridiculously OP.
Which they are. Answer to this is without a doubt Eldar. Daemons and Riptides aren't far behind though.
I borrowed my gaming buddy's Eldar for about month while he was out of town, with the intention of proving that his build had a minor discrepancy and could be slightly improved by doing it my way. I went 1 loss in 23 games. Hint: it was to Eldar.
Vomikron Noxis wrote: Not sure that jink is worse, particularly for eldar. Being able to jink without having moved and getting a bette cover save is a big deal, plus so many twin linked weapons make it less of an issue. Good luck trying to kill a wave serpent at range now!
Eldar have been moving their skimmers every turn since 4th edition, and that gave them defense without losing anything.
Now we can choose to use that defense, still move anyway because we have to, and lose 66% of our DPS.
To avoid losing any DPS, we are now forced to seek cover like every other vehicle in 40K, thereby making Jink an anecdotal special rule where it used to be the trademark of Skimmers: having cover save in the open and thus more freedom of movement.
If you think that's better, then perhaps you also think losing is better than winning ?
Jink is worse, but not by much. Wave serpents Objective secured makes the wave serpents equal if not better than last edition.
It makes them way overpowered now I played a game against Serpents and literally lost on the first turn because we were playing Maelstrom and he got the Total Objectives thing and two Objectives claims. Next game didn't play Maelstrom, okay reserved come on board land on objectives objectives secured. Yay.
Cause if you blow it up you still have to kill the 5 guys in it that have that rule as well.
I too will gladly trade jink nerf for objective secured from the perspective of an Eldar list. It's crazy how muscly Eldar really are this edition.
Anyone who would rather have the old jink over scoring + objective secured is probably a low level player. It just makes them amazing. Costs only a bit of your firepower to jink, and only one the ones that have to. Now not only can you claim an objective, you can camp it while jinking, oh and you can't be contested. On the rare situations where Eldar might be on the losing end of the points battle - They still have the very best scoring unit in the game to pull them out.
I will gladly trade Objective Secured for the Jink nerf, any day, every day, all day, whatever.
Because my strategy is to table you, not to contest gimmicky objectives in a ring around the rosy match.
To me, 40K is a strategy game, and these ridiculous objectives that will let a fleeing enemy win a match when being all but massacred don't make sense.
Of these armies, the Eldar were jink nerfed, the Tau were jink nerfed and lost the Buffmander, AV14 got buffed (SM,Necron), and some other changes I'll let players of the respective armies comment on.
Statistics will surely speak again, but right now there is no reason to believe Eldar will be in the lead.
Keep in mind that most of the players citing Eldar as strongest are playing some of the weaker codexes which do take a pounding from Eldar more than from other leading codexes.
This of course has no bearing on Tournaments where mostly top 5 codexes compete.
DarknessEternal wrote: Codex Imperium is the best. I'm not sure there are any valid arguments against it.
there is a valid argument, codex eldar. i don't think they have any glaring weaknesses. they're very powerful, plain old eldar power.
i play demons, and really enjoy them. they're a very good codex, no complaints from them at all.
i think tau and necrons are similarly powerful, all of the above are good books. all four compete against each other well and should make for good games, with eldar having a slight advantage.
6th Edition is gone. The power armies and builds of 6th are either going to disappear or be radically altered with the current exception of the SeerStar and Beast Stars, they'll hold out as vialbe if not good until a new DE dex hits.
In 6th it was Eldar, Tau, Daemons, Necron, and Space Marines. We never got to see how Astra Millitarium would have truly done in 6th.
Eldar will likely remain the most powerful army, Seerstar, Beast Star, Wave Serpent Spam, EJB Spam are all still viable and good. Wave Serpents lost some offensive potential for Objective Secured and Jink all day everyday which is a net gain in 7th. Eldar did lose Tau Battle Brothers which did hurt them.
Tau took some major hits. Riptides lost their Psychic buffing and their Buffmander. O'VesaStar is illegal. 7th Edition play emphasizes their weak and slow Objective Secured Units. Gunlines won't cut it in 7th. That being said, their vehicles got a buff in resiliance and Devilfish are now a decent Objective Secured Transport. Overall Tau will still be good, but they will fall a couple of notches. Tau lost Eldar Battle Brother which hurt them.
Daemons took some hits, FMCs are less dangerous, Psychic phase is an overall nerf, although with access to Daemonology they have the potential to summon more Dameons, but reliance on this tactic is going to prove mediocre at best. Belekor, access to Cursed Earth help but overall Daemons will be knocked down a notch.
Necron got everything and then some in 7th Edition. Armor got stronger, Tesla really doesn't care about Jinking, the CCB is ridiculously good(even without controversial joining of squads or Phaseshifter 3++). Night Scythes are still one of the best options for grabbing Objectives around and they are even more durable. Overall AV13 Spam got much better, and they gained the CCB Lord and Ghost Arcs as viable choices for AV13Spam. Necron will be even more of a force competitively than they were in 6th. Tesla still kills everything short of AV14 with impunity, their Tesla platforms got tougher. Necrons are loving 7th.
Space Marines gained alot with 7th. They have the most numerous Objective Secured units in the game and they gained Battle Brothers with the entire Imperium. This is phenomenally powerful. For 1050pts base they can drop 18 Objective Secured units on the board. That alone can win games. Losing access to the Tau BuffCommander Hurt, but with the whole Imperium at their fingertips they have more than made up for it.
I would rank 7th in three loose tiers. Without any major tournaments to give us data we can't be sure, and will know a lot more after BAO in July and the NOVA in August. Orks will depend on what we see once everyone has the dex, people get over the initial shock/disappointment, and start pulling out the better lists. I'm currently leaning for Orks as Teir 3, but they might surprise us, Ere We Go and lots of Waaagh may really surprise us.
Tier 1: Eldar, Space Marine(Imperium), Necron
Tier 2: Tau, Daemons, Astra Millitarium(Imperium), Orks?
Tier 3: Orks?, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, CSM
The top 3 Codexes are definitely Eldar, Daemons and Tau, in that order.
That said, the army that is getting the most love at my FLGS is Tyranids. There are some very inventive builds out there that are effective against these top tier armies.
You will be fine with any of those codices. If I personally was starting out I would buy a small eldar army and wait for dark eldar to be released as I only see eldar getting stronger.
Eldar will likely remain the most powerful army, Seerstar, Beast Star, Wave Serpent Spam, EJB Spam are all still viable and good. Wave Serpents lost some offensive potential for Objective Secured and Jink all day everyday which is a net gain in 7th. Eldar did lose Tau Battle Brothers which did hurt them.
Tau took some major hits. Riptides lost their Psychic buffing and their Buffmander. O'VesaStar is illegal. 7th Edition play emphasizes their weak and slow Objective Secured Units. Gunlines won't cut it in 7th. That being said, their vehicles got a buff in resiliance and Devilfish are now a decent Objective Secured Transport. Overall Tau will still be good, but they will fall a couple of notches. Tau lost Eldar Battle Brother which hurt them.
Daemons took some hits, FMCs are less dangerous, Psychic phase is an overall nerf, although with access to Daemonology they have the potential to summon more Dameons, but reliance on this tactic is going to prove mediocre at best. Belekor, access to Cursed Earth help but overall Daemons will be knocked down a notch.
Necron got everything and then some in 7th Edition. Armor got stronger, Tesla really doesn't care about Jinking, the CCB is ridiculously good(even without controversial joining of squads or Phaseshifter 3++). Night Scythes are still one of the best options for grabbing Objectives around and they are even more durable. Overall AV13 Spam got much better, and they gained the CCB Lord and Ghost Arcs as viable choices for AV13Spam. Necron will be even more of a force competitively than they were in 6th. Tesla still kills everything short of AV14 with impunity, their Tesla platforms got tougher. Necrons are loving 7th.
Space Marines gained alot with 7th. They have the most numerous Objective Secured units in the game and they gained Battle Brothers with the entire Imperium. This is phenomenally powerful. For 1050pts base they can drop 18 Objective Secured units on the board. That alone can win games. Losing access to the Tau BuffCommander Hurt, but with the whole Imperium at their fingertips they have more than made up for it.
1. Beast Star isn't Eldar and it wasn't that great anyway. Stars in general did not benefit from 7th, whereas everything troops related, and vehicles did.
2. SeerStar has lost some firepower due to Witchfire changes, it thus has less DPS which it didn't have too much of to begin with.
3. The Jink nerf is huge. For the same protection as in v6, a player has to decide to lose 66% of his firepower for the next turn instead of moving which he was going to do anyway.
4. Tau without O'vesa star or Buffmander will drop a lot in power.
5. SM and Necrons got huge buffs with 7th and no drawbacks.
Since Necron,SM,Tau,Daemons,Eldar were in the same bracket, it's likely that the next statistics will show this:
1. Necron
2. SM 3. Eldar
4. Tau
5. Daemons
Unless of course codex: Ork kicks ass, which is still likely.
To be expected:
A lot of AV14 spam, which will make Necron even stronger.
Psychic moving back to buff / malediction mostly (if it ever moved from there).
A renewed interest in Assault due to its cheaper vehicle bashing capabilities.
Eldar will likely remain the most powerful army, Seerstar, Beast Star, Wave Serpent Spam, EJB Spam are all still viable and good. Wave Serpents lost some offensive potential for Objective Secured and Jink all day everyday which is a net gain in 7th. Eldar did lose Tau Battle Brothers which did hurt them.
Tau took some major hits. Riptides lost their Psychic buffing and their Buffmander. O'VesaStar is illegal. 7th Edition play emphasizes their weak and slow Objective Secured Units. Gunlines won't cut it in 7th. That being said, their vehicles got a buff in resiliance and Devilfish are now a decent Objective Secured Transport. Overall Tau will still be good, but they will fall a couple of notches. Tau lost Eldar Battle Brother which hurt them.
Daemons took some hits, FMCs are less dangerous, Psychic phase is an overall nerf, although with access to Daemonology they have the potential to summon more Dameons, but reliance on this tactic is going to prove mediocre at best. Belekor, access to Cursed Earth help but overall Daemons will be knocked down a notch.
Necron got everything and then some in 7th Edition. Armor got stronger, Tesla really doesn't care about Jinking, the CCB is ridiculously good(even without controversial joining of squads or Phaseshifter 3++). Night Scythes are still one of the best options for grabbing Objectives around and they are even more durable. Overall AV13 Spam got much better, and they gained the CCB Lord and Ghost Arcs as viable choices for AV13Spam. Necron will be even more of a force competitively than they were in 6th. Tesla still kills everything short of AV14 with impunity, their Tesla platforms got tougher. Necrons are loving 7th.
Space Marines gained alot with 7th. They have the most numerous Objective Secured units in the game and they gained Battle Brothers with the entire Imperium. This is phenomenally powerful. For 1050pts base they can drop 18 Objective Secured units on the board. That alone can win games. Losing access to the Tau BuffCommander Hurt, but with the whole Imperium at their fingertips they have more than made up for it.
1. Beast Star isn't Eldar and it wasn't that great anyway. Stars in general did not benefit from 7th, whereas everything troops related, and vehicles did.
2. SeerStar has lost some firepower due to Witchfire changes, it thus has less DPS which it didn't have too much of to begin with.
3. The Jink nerf is huge. For the same protection as in v6, a player has to decide to lose 66% of his firepower for the next turn instead of moving which he was going to do anyway.
4. Tau without O'vesa star or Buffmander will drop a lot in power.
5. SM and Necrons got huge buffs with 7th and no drawbacks.
Since Necron,SM,Tau,Daemons,Eldar were in the same bracket, it's likely that the next statistics will show this:
1. Necron
2. SM 3. Eldar
4. Tau
5. Daemons
Unless of course codex: Ork kicks ass, which is still likely.
To be expected:
A lot of AV14 spam, which will make Necron even stronger.
Psychic moving back to buff / malediction mostly (if it ever moved from there).
A renewed interest in Assault due to its cheaper vehicle bashing capabilities.
1. BeastStar is most definitely Eldar, the best way to run it was 2x Farseer with allied Baron and Beast Pack. DE primary was significantly weaker than eldar primary. Even SeerStar allies DE for the Baron. Highly Mobile Stars still have merit, they just don't win games by them selves anymore.
2. SeerStar is still most definitely alive and well. It wasn't about firepower or Witchfires, it was about being highly mobile, fearlless, nigh indestructable, and multisassaulting units with Hit and Run. It won't be the top list anymore, but it will still be viable.
3. Not quite true. In 6th you didn't get to Jink T1, 7th has buffed T1 Wave Serpent Survivability. In 6th, moving with Holofields gave you a 4+, now Jinking gives a 3+ with Holofields. a 4+ can also be achieve by normal LOS Cover and doesn't make Jink mandatory. If fact shifting behinds a ruins is an easy 3+ Cover with Holofields, and as the Serpent Shield Ignores cover is virtually to no detriment with the caveat being the Scatter and possibly Shuriken granting cover saves. That is if you don't grant yourself cover without obscuring your TLSL.
4. I believe this is exactly what I said.
5. Mostly true and almost exactly what I said.
Your order aligns almost perfectly with mine, where is the disagreement?
AV14 Spam will be in some niche builds, I doubt it will be widespread. Objective Secured AV14 for BA and Inquisition can be build around and is vaible. AV14 prominece actually hurts Necrons as the only thing they have to affect is is Guass on their Warriors which requires risking their OS Scoring as good Necron lists are Tesla. We won't see a return of the Monolith.
Psychic never left Buffing, Maledictions even in 6th weren't a mainstay for most lists. Now Psychic Buffing is still king, Invisibility, Fortune, Precience, Guide, Shrouding, Fortune, Sanctuary, Hammerhand, etc. Conjuration also has its uses and is definitely a tactic, maybe not something to build a list on, but can definitely aid lists in certain situations.
Vehicles got tougher, we won't see a shift back to assault for the meta. Although, Orks will likely bring a new assault element, but that is yet to be seen if it will be a competitive tactic.
Best lord of war - Eldar
Mobile Objective Secured spam - Eldar
Durable Vehicle spam (largely with objective secured to boot) - Eldar
Firepower - Eldar (this one isn't even close for other codexs)
Psychic defense - Eldar
Best Deathstars - Eldar
Flyer spam - Necrons
Most expensive Troops with least amount of firepower : Imperial
morgoth wrote: 3. The Jink nerf is huge. For the same protection as in v6, a player has to decide to lose 66% of his firepower for the next turn instead of moving which he was going to do anyway.
It's actually for greater protection...its a 3+ with HF.
But, all you need to do for the same protection as in 6th, you just need to sit behind terrain and get the 4+ (HF) with your ignores cover gun.
The jink nerf didn't make serpents any less durable...it really just made them less bold. No more flying around and not caring about terrain.
1. BeastStar is most definitely Eldar, the best way to run it was 2x Farseer with allied Baron and Beast Pack. DE primary was significantly weaker than eldar primary. Even SeerStar allies DE for the Baron. Highly Mobile Stars still have merit, they just don't win games by them selves anymore.
2. SeerStar is still most definitely alive and well. It wasn't about firepower or Witchfires, it was about being highly mobile, fearlless, nigh indestructable, and multisassaulting units with Hit and Run. It won't be the top list anymore, but it will still be viable.
3. Not quite true. In 6th you didn't get to Jink T1, 7th has buffed T1 Wave Serpent Survivability. In 6th, moving with Holofields gave you a 4+, now Jinking gives a 3+ with Holofields. a 4+ can also be achieve by normal LOS Cover and doesn't make Jink mandatory. If fact shifting behinds a ruins is an easy 3+ Cover with Holofields, and as the Serpent Shield Ignores cover is virtually to no detriment with the caveat being the Scatter and possibly Shuriken granting cover saves. That is if you don't grant yourself cover without obscuring your TLSL.
4. I believe this is exactly what I said.
5. Mostly true and almost exactly what I said.
Your order aligns almost perfectly with mine, where is the disagreement?
AV14 Spam will be in some niche builds, I doubt it will be widespread. Objective Secured AV14 for BA and Inquisition can be build around and is vaible. AV14 prominece actually hurts Necrons as the only thing they have to affect is is Guass on their Warriors which requires risking their OS Scoring as good Necron lists are Tesla. We won't see a return of the Monolith.
Psychic never left Buffing, Maledictions even in 6th weren't a mainstay for most lists. Now Psychic Buffing is still king, Invisibility, Fortune, Precience, Guide, Shrouding, Fortune, Sanctuary, Hammerhand, etc. Conjuration also has its uses and is definitely a tactic, maybe not something to build a list on, but can definitely aid lists in certain situations.
Vehicles got tougher, we won't see a shift back to assault for the meta. Although, Orks will likely bring a new assault element, but that is yet to be seen if it will be a competitive tactic.
No way...
1. Not competitive anymore, participated in v6 victory stats for Eldar.
2. Not competitive anymore, participated in v6 victory stats for Eldar.
3. It gave the option to have better T1 survivability at the cost of losing 66% of your firepower, and gave up a free 4+ out of cover for a 66% DPS reduction traded for a 3+ out of cover, while changing nothing to the in-cover game. I know which one I'd rather have, and it's not the 7th ed Jink
4. Absolutely not. You said Tau would remain competitive, I say that whatever kept them in the top-5 codex pool is now gone. Big drop. Not top dog anymore, probably not even top pack.
5. Absolutely not. Your conclusion is that those already competitive codexes got slightly better, when in fact they got a lot better.
This changes the conclusion a lot, and having Necron on top of Space Marine, and both on top of Eldar is a world of difference with your tiered approach that does not seem to take 6th ed stats and 7th ed changes into account.
There is absolutely no way Eldar who lost two of their victory combos and mobility OR firepower (the jink nerf) are going to keep their 50% win record against SM and Necron given both of those have been seriously buffed (and SM are easily the king of MSU).
That is unless Eldar have received some huge buff somewhere else of course
Single codex? Eldar are the best. There are several reasons why, listed above by other users. The only places Eldar suffer are against Flyer spam. Eldar can easily tailor to combat this, but their most TAC lists usually don't. Even then, normal Eldar lists can easily take out 1-2 flyers, it's just when there are 5-6+ that it becomes a huge problem.
However, I don't think it's relevant anymore to ask what the best codex is. Any army can ally with any other, and can essentially cover their weaknesses. There are now so many combinations possible, if you have the models, that I don't think you can possibly rate them all except by standalone books. All Tyranid armies aren't bad, but aren't great. You could ally in some Eldar jetbikes and Bright Lance warwalkers however, and suddenly they have mobile troops, as well as extremely durable troops. FMCs destroy flyers while Lances deal with Land Raiders, our biggest weakness. You can rank each codex, but the sheer logistics of ranking every possible army combination is now almost impossible.
The jink nerf didn't make serpents any less durable...it really just made them less bold. No more flying around and not caring about terrain.
Exactly, that's a nerf to mobility, which imo is a huge nerf in a strategy game.
Terrain cover can be maneuvered around, the new Jink will not be very useful if you use it too late, very detrimental if you use it too early and your opponent switches targets, compared to a shrouded for vehicles... it's just a big big nerf.
Whilst I think that all armies are at least able to compete to a greater or lesser degree I have to go with the majority here (Morgoth excluded ;-) and say Eldar.
They excel at about mobility and firepower which they have in spades and which are the keys to victory in the modern game, they back that up with durability and the ever annoying Eldar shenanigans.
I think Eldar, by itself, is slightly ahead of the pack, but I find that Imperium, Necrons, and Daemons are all almost the same.
Codex Inquisition will level out the Imperium fairly well, given that it allows you to take OS Land Raiders. I don't think that anyone is really prepared to deal with that. For ~700 points putting two of those in almost any game with some mediocre scoring units inside... I'm fairly confident that the Imperium will be fine.
Necrons, as stated elsewhere, might be stronger than it was in 6th. I have a hard time against Necrons, but I think some OS Land Raiders will help crack that nut.
Eldar are definitely difficult to play against, but I think the changes to the other armies have brought them into line.
I tend to agree with the Eldar being top, but Necrons are a VERY close second. CCB, x3 Annihilation Barge, x2 Ghost Ark, x2 Night Scythes and a mob of warriors will give any army fits. Those arks won't be getting off objectives very easily, and they are objective secured and capable of putting out 30 shots of guass a turn. Annihilation Barges with Tesla/tesla will handle just about anything. Night Scythes and CCB speak for themselves.
morgoth wrote: There is no data available for 7th yet, but some things are very clear:
Jink is worse now
Maybe for Eldar, but not for everyone. As a RW player, having a 3+ cover standing still in the open on Skilled Riders is pretty sweet, expecially with our weapons being twin linked and then still allowing a charge.
Just because the mechanic has gotten worse for your army doesn't mean the mechanic is broken as a whole.
I see Necrons and Chaos Daemons really fighting it out for 2nd place, it'll be interesting to see the new armies as several armies are very nerfed.
Specifically Seerstar , no more multiple casting of psychic powers, so even if you get fortune, shutting it down is super important so you can just throw all your dice at it.
That's a huge deal. Of course they got Invisibility but there's a chance they wont get it.
edit:
It also really depends on the tourney you play in whether they are in fact allowing a 2nd CAD in lieu of an Ally. I dunno BAO and NOVA are coming up those will be interesting.
Spyderstar got a little bit more power but also less so, in that you can't bounce around anymore but also you can crap out Scarabsthat can score.
Its true the jink changes affected Eldar a lot but they haven't fallen to the point of many other armies... they still have very strong firepower that can only be contested by a few armies...top tier in my mind however is the Imperium...they have lists filled with MSU and can adapt to many opponents
FenrisianStuart21 wrote:I want to know what the best codex is right now.
No joke, top of the line codex.
If you wanna throw in the best list, do that as well.
Why?
Certainly it's not to make the strongest army, as strongest armies are blends of various units as allies, or are unbound. Certainly it's not a timing thing as by the time you get your army assembled and painted, a bunch of new stuff will have come out and likely will have changed the meta. Certainly it's not just about winning games, because 40k is a dice game, not something you can seriously compete over.
Perhaps if you can clarify what exactly you're looking for, you'll get something resembling accurate opinions on your specific needs.
1. Not competitive anymore, participated in v6 victory stats for Eldar.
2. Not competitive anymore, participated in v6 victory stats for Eldar.
3. It gave the option to have better T1 survivability at the cost of losing 66% of your firepower, and gave up a free 4+ out of cover for a 66% DPS reduction traded for a 3+ out of cover, while changing nothing to the in-cover game. I know which one I'd rather have, and it's not the 7th ed Jink
4. Absolutely not. You said Tau would remain competitive, I say that whatever kept them in the top-5 codex pool is now gone. Big drop. Not top dog anymore, probably not even top pack.
5. Absolutely not. Your conclusion is that those already competitive codexes got slightly better, when in fact they got a lot better.
This changes the conclusion a lot, and having Necron on top of Space Marine, and both on top of Eldar is a world of difference with your tiered approach that does not seem to take 6th ed stats and 7th ed changes into account.
There is absolutely no way Eldar who lost two of their victory combos and mobility OR firepower (the jink nerf) are going to keep their 50% win record against SM and Necron given both of those have been seriously buffed (and SM are easily the king of MSU).
That is unless Eldar have received some huge buff somewhere else of course
Its kind of hard to believe that you think Eldar are going to fall out of the top spot, out of the Top 2.
As to that advantage, how about Objective Secured Wave Serpents? Ever heard of them? Now they can hold and deny Objectives better than anything else in the game, and they are almost as mobile as the second best option, Eldar Jetbikes....
Did you miss me placing Tau in Teir2? And declare those as lose teirs as it is too early to determine exactly where each will fall.
Did you miss me putting Eldar, SM, and Necron in Teir 1?
Have you played Eldar in 7th Edition yet? They are still a 1st class Codex, no doubt about it. Objective Secured Wave Serpents are amazing.
Though I can see how you could come to the conclusion that Wave Serpents now suck, if its from the limited viewpoint of them as only Gunboats.
I will gladly trade Objective Secured for the Jink nerf, any day, every day, all day, whatever.
Because my strategy is to table you, not to contest gimmicky objectives in a ring around the rosy match.
To me, 40K is a strategy game, and these ridiculous objectives that will let a fleeing enemy win a match when being all but massacred don't make sense.
I bet you do. This is because you are used to having the firepower to ignore how the game is actually played by most other armies. But once your skillset as well as your opponent's start to develop, you will realize that not every game will be won like this and some will come down to objectives. As I said, it will be rare, your army is quite OP, but against some of the other slightly less OP armies the NEW ability to suddenly drastically outscore everything without it affecting your gameplay up till turn 4 or 5 when you make the decision that you need to score, at the "cost" of a few twin-linked snapshots for a more reliable jink that guards immobile and camping Wave Serpents and against alpha strike, oh and turns their Fire-Warrior-save from last edition into a Power-Armor-save in 7th, it literally makes Eldar a league better than it was last edition. Very little can table Eldar, and the ones that can Will rarely achieve it. Now on the offchance the game has not played Eldars way, they have all the tools to win through scoring. 7th made Eldar gods.
Of these armies, the Eldar were jink nerfed, the Tau were jink nerfed and lost the Buffmander, AV14 got buffed (SM,Necron), and some other changes I'll let players of the respective armies comment on.
Statistics will surely speak again, but right now there is no reason to believe Eldar will be in the lead.
Jink affected SM and Crons more than Tau lol AV14 vehicles were buffed no more than Wave Serpents.
Riptide is still the most OP model in the game and Tau has plenty of other ways to support it with those buffman points. They saw a very very slight power level drop and still will be a top dog well above Crons, worst case scenario for Tau is that Crons have been brought up to their slightly lowered level, although even this is slightly generous imo
Keep in mind that most of the players citing Eldar as strongest are playing some of the weaker codexes which do take a pounding from Eldar more than from other leading codexes.
This of course has no bearing on Tournaments where mostly top 5 codexes compete.
Oh ok so everyone without one of the top 5 Tourney armies should probably just not have an opinion amirite?
For starters, there is no reason that all of the weaker codexes should lose any harder to Eldar than to any of the other top dogs. That just proves they are OPlol.
"people from almost every other army in the game only say that my army is the most Overpowered because it beats their army everytime easier than every other codex can"
What other criteria is there to go off lol. What straw are you going to clutch to say that this means they actually aren't OP lool.
Grey Knights get 1 warp charge per 5 men, Aegis, and reinforced Aegis.
3 weaknesses that hurt Codex Imperium:
1) Eldar Titan
2) Wave serpents
3) Wraith Knights
For psychic defense maybe grey knights have more dice if they max out there dice, but Aegis and reinforced Aegis sucks compared to having higher level. Also I'm not even sure on grey knights having an effective list with more dice as I've yet to see them accomplish much with those dice other than having a lot of them. Eldar with 30-40 dice is actually quite scary since they by and large have no fear of perils by throwing more dice and it's really easy to get that many dice since they can take 5 level 2 psykers in a single HQ slot. Not to mention that Eldar, since they don't fear perils can run summoning or santic pretty freely.
Shuppet, no I don't wonder at all.
Most smart people have left the room ages ago because only a fool would think reason can have any impact on a mind that is hell bent on ignoring logic.
I go against a jetseer council on an unfortunately regular basis. they typically wind up with a 2+ rerollable save, 4+ rerollable invuln, and wreck everything they assault on the fastest bikes in the game. on the plus side, the games are always very short, so i can get a game in for fun - I ask if he has the seer council deathstar, he says "tehy're not a deathstar because they might not roll the powers they want", and I concede and go play someone fun.
eldar are unfortunately obscenely good if you really try to make them. they can run a balanced list, and fun games can be had. but too often you'll find yourself against 2 wraithknights, 5 waveserpents and a seer council on jetbikes, and if you can't reliably kill off those serpents by turn 2 then you'll either lose on objectives or lost by tabling.
some bloke wrote: I go against a jetseer council on an unfortunately regular basis. they typically wind up with a 2+ rerollable save, 4+ rerollable invuln, and wreck everything they assault on the fastest bikes in the game. on the plus side, the games are always very short, so i can get a game in for fun - I ask if he has the seer council deathstar, he says "tehy're not a deathstar because they might not roll the powers they want", and I concede and go play someone fun.
eldar are unfortunately obscenely good if you really try to make them. they can run a balanced list, and fun games can be had. but too often you'll find yourself against 2 wraithknights, 5 waveserpents and a seer council on jetbikes, and if you can't reliably kill off those serpents by turn 2 then you'll either lose on objectives or lost by tabling.
If it's just a Jetseer council, you can tarpit it, if it's not it's a Seerstar and it takes up about 700 points.
2WK, 5WS and a SeerStar is past 2000 points.
2WK 6WS is a tournament build
Seerstar 4WS is a tournament build
If you're playing soft lists against hard lists, you're very likely to lose no matter the codex at play.
Incidentally, the WS and the Seerstar have been nerfed, where vehicles were buffed and MC were not, so if anything, it should be easier to win now
If you want obscenely good in v7, try Necrons. They were top-5 last edition, tied with Tau/Eldar/SM/Daemons.
This edition is 90% buff to them and a very slight loss with the Jink nerf that may even be compensated by the Jink change.
morgoth wrote: Shuppet, no I don't wonder at all.
Most smart people have left the room ages ago because only a fool would think reason can have any impact on a mind that is hell bent on ignoring logic.
what logical reasons have you gave that the eldar codex isn't slightly ahead of the other books? you have given biased opinions, that's not logic.
no one is saying eldar are unbeatable, that would be illogical.
just saying they're slightly ahead of the curve, because they have the tools to do anything, and do it well or great, is logical.
because they do.
I'm happy for you, you have a strong good codex, with lots of really good tools. try to help the community by being happy about that and enlighten new players with positive helpful information, instead of trying to smoke and mirrors them with biased opinions on self perceived nerfs.
I think he was saying that he is the one that refuses to logic hence why he doesn't care about the opinions shown his way because intelligent people would have stopped trying
morgoth wrote: Shuppet, no I don't wonder at all.
Most smart people have left the room ages ago because only a fool would think reason can have any impact on a mind that is hell bent on ignoring logic.
what logical reasons have you gave that the eldar codex isn't slightly ahead of the other books?
I gave you the only available statistics of v6, and the changes from v6 to v7 that made the Eldar worse.
Necron, SM = 50% against top 5 in v6 + much improved in v7, Necron least affected by shooting skimmers jink nerf
Tau = 50% against top 5 in v6 + much lost in v7, because of shooting skimmers jink nerf, lost O'vesa, Buffmander
Eldar = 50% against top 5 in v6 + much lost in v7, because of shooting skimmers jink nerf, weaker Psychic stars
Daemons = 50% against top 5 in v6 + much lost in v7 because of weaker Psychic stars
Unless you know of other changes that favored the Eldar, they will be losing against Necron and SM on a very consistent basis, and have lost a great deal of what made them awesome in v6.
WS, which were the good filler of every tournament list, have been seriously nerfed with the new Jink, making them ok-filler, that in itself is going to break a lot of previously highly competitive builds.
SHUPPET wrote: Ignore morgoth please, his gimmick is going to every thread and turning it into a 4 page argument where he refuses to concede that Eldar are ridiculously OP.
morgoth is just the destroyer of threads involving tactical discussion. I'd like to say it was limited to threads discussing Eldar, but I saw him turn even a Riptide thread and another discussing friendly list building, into his one sided campaign that Wave Serpents aren't OP and Eldar-stars suck now and other such jazz
I played my first game of 7th last night, Necron vs. Eldar.
I was able to win by` 2 points. It was clear to me that when the new rules hit the table, the new Jink really is a palpable and significant nerf for the Eldar.
And I can attest the Ghost Ark now being objective-secured, new chariot/CCB rules, and new vehicle damage chart are all significant buffs for Necrons.
Not sure yet if 7th changes the "powe ranking" or anything, because this was my very 1st game with 7th, but I was able to eek out a heretofore rare W vs. an Eldar army.
zachwho wrote: I'm glad to know your only game of 7th gave you clear and tested evidence that eldar were or weren't nerfed....
Since my sarcasm detector went up a couple notches, I'll defend myself a little bit in that it wasn't like "Wow...jink might hurt Eldar." It was more like "Round after round after round, I am able to force my Eldar opponent into deciding to take a Jink save and force Snapshots, or decide to take a wound or a hull point."
So alot of the fire from units I am used to getting absolutely pummeled by were now shooting at me with snapshots only, for multiple rounds, basically at my will.
Jink affected SM and Crons more than Tau lol AV14 vehicles were buffed no more than Wave Serpents.
Riptide is still the most OP model in the game and Tau has plenty of other ways to support it with those buffman points. They saw a very very slight power level drop and still will be a top dog well above Crons, worst case scenario for Tau is that Crons have been brought up to their slightly lowered level, although even this is slightly generous
Shuppet,
The biggest nerf to Tau isn't in their firepower. In that respect you are absolutely right, the lost little when it comes to the edition change.
However, they lost out big time when it comes to the new Objective secured rules. Unless they start spending points on things like Devilifish, which they wil have to to compete, which lowers their ability to buy the more expensive tools. Maelstrom missions are especially bad for Tau, as they are for any static gunlines. They loose the mobility game which is even more important in 7th than it was in 6th. This where the edge comes into Necrons, with their superior vehicles and board control, in addition to the numerous other buffs they received.
For a good example, check out the BAO Missions. That's a major tournament, and I can guarantee just by looking at the missions, that Gunlines are going to have an issue.
I really feel that Static gunlines are not going to be doing that well this edition, since mobility is so key. It's one of the reasons why Serpents are considered better than before, especially in Maelstrom missions.
Thanks to the new Invisibility...death star lists are still going to be around.
I think Necrons will only be top tier until their new codex drops and then I fully expect points increases in their flyers and nerfs to wraiths (because that's what everyone bought in 6e). They will still be in a good place because AV13 obsc spam will still be a thing...at least until Space Wolves get updated.
So far all the Astra Miltarum parking lot lists are losing badly. Expect a return to Valkyrie/Vendetta spam.
FYI, Jetseer did not get nerfed at all...
Now they actually get the 2+ cover save without the baron thanks to jink being 4+ by default and their default power being shrouded.
It's not hard for them to get off powers either they can safely through as many dice as they want a power and you'll never be able to stop it. even daemon factory with 30 dice reliably can realistically shut down 6 successes.
Jinking doesn't hurt Jetseer, they don't shoot anyway.
Jetseer is going to be really tough to beat this edition, just like last edition.
SeerStar without a baron is better than with a baron, but the baron's main use was the 36 shot average 2++ and the Hit and Run, not the 2+ cover save
All things being equal, Witchfire has been nerfed, the damage output of the SeerStar is going to drop another notch and might well land it into not-that-competitive-anymore territory.
Aside from lack of a legitimate psychic threat, AM is pretty nasty. Not to mention you can square off against all those cover-reliant armies and just laugh at them.
Frankenberry wrote: Aside from lack of a legitimate psychic threat, AM is pretty nasty. Not to mention you can square off against all those cover-reliant armies and just laugh at them.
The only thing they gained is Wyverns, cheaper Russes and psykers, and, arguably, orders. How are they better?
Kinda failing to see how they're better off than they were before...the main issue is that they have very very poor mobility in an edition that rewards mobility.
Kinda failing to see how they're better off than they were before...the main issue is that they have very very poor mobility in an edition that rewards mobility.
What?
Chimeras lost a fire port, but gained lasguns and SCORE. Vendettas got a necessary points increase, but they can SCORE. There are still useful SCs, just not as many, and what do you even mean by artillery going away? The basilisk is still around and the colossus and griffon got merged into the wyvern. Only medusas (which weren't that great anyways) were lost.
So yeah, very little that they lost.
While they gained fearless priests, and extra psykers, and better commissars, and tank HQs, and platoon stormies, and cheaper practically everything. You say "cheaper russes" like a 40% points drop in your heavy support choices is nothing.
If you're failing to see how they're better, you've got to be focusing pretty hard on just the stuff that got a little worse and deliberately ignoring everything that got better.
Kinda failing to see how they're better off than they were before...the main issue is that they have very very poor mobility in an edition that rewards mobility.
What?
Chimeras lost a fire port, but gained lasguns and SCORE. Vendettas got a necessary points increase, but they can SCORE. There are still useful SCs, just not as many, and what do you even mean by artillery going away? The basilisk is still around and the colossus and griffon got merged into the wyvern. Only medusas (which weren't that great anyways) were lost.
So yeah, very little that they lost.
While they gained fearless priests, and extra psykers, and better commissars, and tank HQs, and platoon stormies, and cheaper practically everything. You say "cheaper russes" like a 40% points drop in your heavy support choices is nothing.
If you're failing to see how they're better, you've got to be focusing pretty hard on just the stuff that got a little worse and deliberately ignoring everything that got better.
Kinda failing to see how they're better off than they were before...the main issue is that they have very very poor mobility in an edition that rewards mobility.
What?
Chimeras lost a fire port, but gained lasguns and SCORE. Vendettas got a necessary points increase, but they can SCORE. There are still useful SCs, just not as many, and what do you even mean by artillery going away? The basilisk is still around and the colossus and griffon got merged into the wyvern. Only medusas (which weren't that great anyways) were lost.
So yeah, very little that they lost.
While they gained fearless priests, and extra psykers, and better commissars, and tank HQs, and platoon stormies, and cheaper practically everything. You say "cheaper russes" like a 40% points drop in your heavy support choices is nothing.
If you're failing to see how they're better, you've got to be focusing pretty hard on just the stuff that got a little worse and deliberately ignoring everything that got better.
Ailaros will complain if guard is nerfed and I don't see him complaining.
Artillery: Wyverns are better than 5th ed artillery. Forge world heavy artillery carriages and rapier laser destroyers can receive ignore cover orders.
Useful SCs: Yarrik is the most useful SC and he is 40 points cheaper. A lot of other SC are currently MIA but may appear in a dateslate.
Vendettas: Points adjusted to being a flyer instead of a 5th ed skimmer. Vultures are still underpriced. 3 Rapier laser destroyers with extra crew cost 3 points more than a vendetta, have the same # of TL shots, 6 T3 5+ save wounds, and 6 T7 5+ save wounds. As stated before they can receive orders to ignore cover and come stock with ordinance for armor pen. If you're worried about anti air Sabers are still there and can recieve orders for tank hunters or ignore cover.
Chimeras: Lost 3 fire points but gained scoring and objective secured.
Kinda failing to see how they're better off than they were before...the main issue is that they have very very poor mobility in an edition that rewards mobility.
What?
Chimeras lost a fire port, but gained lasguns and SCORE. Vendettas got a necessary points increase, but they can SCORE. There are still useful SCs, just not as many, and what do you even mean by artillery going away? The basilisk is still around and the colossus and griffon got merged into the wyvern. Only medusas (which weren't that great anyways) were lost.
So yeah, very little that they lost.
While they gained fearless priests, and extra psykers, and better commissars, and tank HQs, and platoon stormies, and cheaper practically everything. You say "cheaper russes" like a 40% points drop in your heavy support choices is nothing.
If you're failing to see how they're better, you've got to be focusing pretty hard on just the stuff that got a little worse and deliberately ignoring everything that got better.
Every Dedicated Transport for Troops now scores. The Chimera is 10 points more expensive than it was, and scores just like a Rhino scores. If the bar gets lowered for everybody, there's no net gain.
Vendettas aren't worth taking anymore hands-down. Lascannons only blow up vehicles on a 6. They're no longer the best AT weapons out there. Hull pointing vehicles down is far more reliable.
People can claim all day that the Wyvern is amazing. The problem is that nobody knows how the damn thing actually works (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/600448.page). If you're rerolling everything, they're great. If you're only rerolling the first dice, they're meh.
Yarrick, Priests and Commissars all go with foot IG, which you bemoaned all of 6th edition. ALL of 6th edition. Are you now saying that foot IG is good? Because that's a pretty sharp 180 from what you have been saying for the past two years.
If you look at it in terms of 6th edition, the losses weren't huge. In terms of IG's 5th edition power, they're a shell. The massive Hydra nerf was pretty crippling. The Hydra was further nerfed in this edition to the point that I actually cut the barrels off of my FW Hydras and use them as Wyverns. Seriously.
Bickering about it is pointless. When we start seeing GTs won by IG players, I'll concede that you're correct and IG got a boost. Until then, I'm simply not seeing it.
Kinda failing to see how they're better off than they were before...the main issue is that they have very very poor mobility in an edition that rewards mobility.
What?
Chimeras lost a fire port, but gained lasguns and SCORE. Vendettas got a necessary points increase, but they can SCORE. There are still useful SCs, just not as many, and what do you even mean by artillery going away? The basilisk is still around and the colossus and griffon got merged into the wyvern. Only medusas (which weren't that great anyways) were lost.
So yeah, very little that they lost.
While they gained fearless priests, and extra psykers, and better commissars, and tank HQs, and platoon stormies, and cheaper practically everything. You say "cheaper russes" like a 40% points drop in your heavy support choices is nothing.
If you're failing to see how they're better, you've got to be focusing pretty hard on just the stuff that got a little worse and deliberately ignoring everything that got better.
Every Dedicated Transport for Troops now scores. The Chimera is 10 points more expensive than it was, and scores just like a Rhino scores. If the bar gets lowered for everybody, there's no net gain.
Vendettas aren't worth taking anymore hands-down. Lascannons only blow up vehicles on a 6. They're no longer the best AT weapons out there. Hull pointing vehicles down is far more reliable.
People can claim all day that the Wyvern is amazing. The problem is that nobody knows how the damn thing actually works (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/600448.page). If you're rerolling everything, they're great. If you're only rerolling the first dice, they're meh.
Yarrick, Priests and Commissars all go with foot IG, which you bemoaned all of 6th edition. ALL of 6th edition. Are you now saying that foot IG is good? Because that's a pretty sharp 180 from what you have been saying for the past two years.
If you look at it in terms of 6th edition, the losses weren't huge. In terms of IG's 5th edition power, they're a shell. The massive Hydra nerf was pretty crippling. The Hydra was further nerfed in this edition to the point that I actually cut the barrels off of my FW Hydras and use them as Wyverns. Seriously.
Bickering about it is pointless. When we start seeing GTs won by IG players, I'll concede that you're correct and IG got a boost. Until then, I'm simply not seeing it.
I pretty much always see 1 or 2 IG players in the top 10 of west coast GTs.
Rerolls on multiple barrage should get FAQ'd soon. I don't know any TO that would go with the asshat idea that they don't get rerolls.
Forget about Hydras and Vendettas. Objective secured sabers are far better in 7th edition.
Yarrick and priests are beasts when attaching themselves to artillery. 7th edition orders insanely powerful on heavy artillery with earth shakers or medusa. Rapiers also go nuts with ignore cover. Their main weakness is ld 7 which can be negated with a 25 point priest or Yarrick's 12" bubble. Yarrick also gets 2 orders per turn.
Guard are good at killing mech to objective secured Rhinos works out for us.
I think we will continue to see Guard perform well at most GTs.
morgoth wrote: Shuppet, no I don't wonder at all.
Most smart people have left the room ages ago because only a fool would think reason can have any impact on a mind that is hell bent on ignoring logic.
Bickering about it is pointless. When we start seeing GTs won by IG players, I'll concede that you're correct and IG got a boost.
KK so discussing the logic of the changes is just pointless bickering, and unless they are the top dog WINNING gt's, then they can't have possibly gotten any stronger.
Just so you know, they don't have to be knocking down Eldar to have gotten better. AM is a badass army atm.
Definitely at the good level of balance, their own unique strong level of playstyle, that isn't stupid OP. It's crazy how GW achieved this with SM, derped it for Nids, achieved this with AM, and derped it for Orks. Space Wolves are meant to be next and DE after, if the pattern continues, the IoM army will get a good solid dex and the Xenos will just get a new badly balanced Mech and have all their old overcosted unplayable crap like Mandrakes left as is.
And I'm not even being bias here, I want my Space Wolve's to get a good SM/AM balanced level dex. Would just be nice if my DE got one too :(
With Haywire, Deep Strike no scatter ... I think the Hawks are definitely not as bad as other units in 40K or even the Eldar Codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
zachwho wrote: why is the seerstar better without baron? legitimate question.
The baron cannot turbo-boost 48", he slows down the SeerStar a great deal.
On the other hand, a SeerStar without baron only has cover and 4++ invul, now maybe 3++ invul with daemonology, which could maybe possibly create a new Star variant that has more mobility and less invul. But I doubt that.
Either way, without the baron, the star lacks hit and run and that's a big issue.
Serpent is a worse gunboat, but more survivable and OS. Overall buff, but quite different.
Wraithknight is an MC, so would be slightly worse, but at s10, not really changed.
Seer Star was nerfed:
Eldar cannot get 40 dice.
With 2 Jetseers, they max out at 17, and that requires all 10 Locks, and a Harlie Shadowseer. Harlies are bad right now. They make Banshees look good. And Seer Council usually ran 6 Locks in 6th. In 7th, each additional ML has a diminishing return (down to 50%). And each Lock has a diminishing return, as they cannot use the same powers. The council can handle one duplicate, but once you have two, one can't do anything even if you have the dice.
Most Seer Councils are at +12 dice. Assuming they maximize their odds of getting both Fortune and Invis, they have about a 1/4 chance of both. Assuming they get both, and roll a 6 for charges, if they 6 dice both (to reliably get both off), they have 6 dice left. And they risk Perils (They can burn a die to soak a wound, the most likely event, but have absolutely no way to mitigate losing a power or being sucked into the Warp).
With those remaining 6 dice, they'll need 3 just to get good odds of getting Shouting. And/or 3 to get good odds of Protect going off. Or to twinlink their shooting. Or any other wc 1 power. Or they can throw all 6 at wc2 (to twinlink their shooting and melee).
That means the Seer Council, for all their points, best case, has Protect, Invis, 2+ cover, 2+ armor. Or protect, Invis, and twin linked everything. But nothing more.
Now, in 6th, they could do some damage in melee, and the massed s9 ap- shooting was quite nice. But what really won games was splitting apart to contest objectives. The melee is mostly unchanged (at ap-, though, they're less likely to pop tanks without hullpointing them). The shooting took a huge nerf from jink. Their powers are now not going to all be attempted Most won't be if you really want specific powers to go off. Perils are now dangerous. Their favorite Jetseer discipline got nerfed hard. And while they can score now, they can't deny troops.
Overall, the Jetseer council appears to have been needed hard, to me.
So the Serpent/Wraithknight spam lists that were obscene and popular are still going to be game breaking, but slightly less game breaking, but seer council shouldn't be a huge problem anymore.
Eldar are still top of the stack. Probably will be until the Serpent gets nerfed .
Side notes:
-Higher ML might be slightly better than Ageis, but Aegis + psykers everywhere is much better. Grey Knights should have better psyker defense as they'll have the same roll as a Farseer (unless the caster is ML3/4, then GK has better), *and* more dice.
Also, DAs only outshoot Marines at 12-18". Assuming Marines dont have a a Heavy or decent Special weapon. Yes, they have tools to try to keep you there. But engaging Eldar on their terms means you should lose. Marines win out in every other setup, even without Chapter Tactics or ATSKNF. A bolter round is much more deadly to a DA, than a Shuriken round is to a Marine. DAs cost the same as a Marine without CT or ATSKNF (C:CSM).
Eldar are good. Easily top of the heap good. But not everything in the Dex is broken.
There's one topic about whether the WS is better now, and Overall nerf is the conclusion. If you have something to bring I'd love to hear it, as you seem to understand the difference between a DA and a Tacmarine
morgoth wrote: There's one topic about whether the WS is better now, and Overall nerf is the conclusion. If you have something to bring I'd love to hear it, as you seem to understand the difference between a DA and a Tacmarine
wuestenfux wrote: Well, there is a tradeoff. It was more killy in the 6th ed, but its more survivable (from shooting) in the 7th ed.
Zagman wrote: As a pure Gunboat, the Wave Serpent is worse, yet more survivable.
As a transport and in Objective missions, it is significantly better. Its the best Objective Secured Transport in the game and is still a good Gunboat.
How about you stop making false claims?
The overall consensus is that the WS gota huge buff due to Objective Secured along with the new vehicle damage table.
The overall consensus is that a bunch of opinions make the WS out to be better, and all the facts logic and statistics are on the side that concludes that it is worse.
You may of course pick opinions over logic and facts, I'd rather keep those though.
I'd much rather rely on the opinion of people who, unlike you, actually play the game, even at a competitive level than I'd rely on the opinion of singular players who consider their very own subjective opinion a "general consensus".
So everyone else's logic is an opinion while yours is a fact? And even though everyone disagrees with you, the overall consensus is that you are right simply because their opinion is made irrelevant by the act of disagreeing with you? Since all your opinions are facts of course, anyone arguing with you clearly isn't capable of forming a sensible point of view. Thus, your opinion alone constitutes the majority.
Every single other poster on this forum to voice an opinion on the subject just don't have as solid a grip on the game as you, and haven't realized yet that the amazing utility received by becoming the best scoring unit in the game in no way makes up for the fact that you have to sacrifice a percentage of your damage to claim an even better jink than last edition.
You'd better keep starting this same argument in as many threads as possible until everyone properly understands.
SHUPPET wrote: So everyone else's logic is an opinion while yours is a fact? And even though everyone disagrees with you, the overall consensus is that you are right simply because their opinion is made irrelevant by the act of disagreeing with you? Since all your opinions are facts of course, anyone arguing with you clearly isn't capable of forming a sensible point of view. Thus, your opinion alone constitutes the majority.
Every single other poster on this forum to voice an opinion on the subject just don't have as solid a grip on the game as you, and haven't realized yet that the amazing utility received by becoming the best scoring unit in the game in no way makes up for the fact that you have to sacrifice a percentage of your damage to claim an even better jink than last edition.
You'd better keep starting this same argument in as many threads as possible until everyone properly understands.
mordakkagoth.com
There's only a few like you, none of which have brought numbers, study cases or anything even remotely logical.
You do not represent every single other poster, you're just part of a small group of people dedicated to repeating "Eldar OPWSOP" without anything to back your claim for hundreds and hundreds of posts.
Good for you.
morgoth wrote: There's one topic about whether the WS is better now, and Overall nerf is the conclusion.
Oh really? That was not the thread's conclusion was at all. It is your conclusion where simply hand wave away or ignore the opposing arguments and data while Ad Hominem insulting those who disagree by calling them Anti Eldar Trolls and bad players while asserting your own superior tactical knowledge and understanding of the game. That thread?
Please, don't blatantly misrepresent the facts to further your argument, one which you've opened up across multiple threads.
The general consensus, by everyone except you, is that the Wave Serpent is better.
Oh really? That was not the thread's conclusion was at all. It is your conclusion where simply hand wave away or ignore the opposing arguments and data while Ad Hominem insulting those who disagree by calling them Anti Eldar Trolls and bad players while asserting your own superior tactical knowledge and understanding of the game. That thread?
Please, don't blatantly misrepresent the facts to further your argument, one which you've opened up across multiple threads.
The general consensus, by everyone except you, is that the Wave Serpent is better.
No data or logic was presented to underpin the conclusion that the Wave Serpent is better.
I'm not the one running around pretending Eldar is OP or WS is OP without any data or logic to back it up.
Oh really? That was not the thread's conclusion was at all. It is your conclusion where simply hand wave away or ignore the opposing arguments and data while Ad Hominem insulting those who disagree by calling them Anti Eldar Trolls and bad players while asserting your own superior tactical knowledge and understanding of the game. That thread?
Please, don't blatantly misrepresent the facts to further your argument, one which you've opened up across multiple threads.
The general consensus, by everyone except you, is that the Wave Serpent is better.
No data or logic was presented to underpin the conclusion that the Wave Serpent is better.
I'm not the one running around pretending Eldar is OP or WS is OP without any data or logic to back it up.
Nope, you're just the one running 7 of them despite the "nerf" they took. Hopefully your tactical acumen can make up for how underwhelming the crappy Wave Serpent is now.
Nope, you're just the one running 7 of them despite the "nerf" they took. Hopefully your tactical acumen can make up for how underwhelming the crappy Wave Serpent is now.
Nothing can beat the sexy look of the WS. nothing. I played them when they were really bad, I'll still play them when they become useless again. Right now is still a lot better than with 4th ed codex anyway.
I'd say that everyone who thinks that having the better argument means self-referring for the entire time along with repeatedly stating the same, wrong, statements has pretty much lost already
Oh really? That was not the thread's conclusion was at all. It is your conclusion where simply hand wave away or ignore the opposing arguments and data while Ad Hominem insulting those who disagree by calling them Anti Eldar Trolls and bad players while asserting your own superior tactical knowledge and understanding of the game. That thread?
Please, don't blatantly misrepresent the facts to further your argument, one which you've opened up across multiple threads.
The general consensus, by everyone except you, is that the Wave Serpent is better.
No data or logic was presented to underpin the conclusion that the Wave Serpent is better.
I'm not the one running around pretending Eldar is OP or WS is OP without any data or logic to back it up.
Nope, you're just the one running 7 of them despite the "nerf" they took. Hopefully your tactical acumen can make up for how underwhelming the crappy Wave Serpent is now.
Exalt for you Eldarain!
I play iron hands and even with my clan raukaan immortal chaptermaster of doom(yeah right) improved defense vs the ****tons of eldar shuriken weapons with 6+ FNP 3 vindicators and 2 talons, i can't win vs eldar with more than 4 serpents... EVEN IF I MANAGE TO SOMEHOW blow up the serpent, then 5 pansies camp on the objective @morgoth, don't cry, even with psychic powers being harder to cast and this strange nerf which makes marines only option vs eldar(buttloads of drop podding sternguard) near useless, you STILL have the strongest race
Oh really? That was not the thread's conclusion was at all. It is your conclusion where simply hand wave away or ignore the opposing arguments and data while Ad Hominem insulting those who disagree by calling them Anti Eldar Trolls and bad players while asserting your own superior tactical knowledge and understanding of the game. That thread?
Please, don't blatantly misrepresent the facts to further your argument, one which you've opened up across multiple threads.
The general consensus, by everyone except you, is that the Wave Serpent is better.
No data or logic was presented to underpin the conclusion that the Wave Serpent is better.
I'm not the one running around pretending Eldar is OP or WS is OP without any data or logic to back it up.
No data or logic underlies your delusion that one of the most OP uits in the game got worse not better - as you state you have no interest in tactics just killing your opponents with cheesy list and units
To claim that the thread decided that way is an outgiht distortion and insulting to all that particpated in that and every other thread where you spread this nonsense - its only yourself and a coupel fo other die hard Wave Serpent appoloigsts that believe this......
ThatSwellFella wrote: @morgoth, don't cry, even with psychic powers being harder to cast and this strange nerf which makes marines only option vs eldar(buttloads of drop podding sternguard) near useless, you STILL have the strongest race
That's the thing.
How can a race that used to be tied with the other races in the top 5.
That has received a raw power nerf to all of its competitive tools.
That is facing two of the other top 5 races that received mostly buffs with v7.
Still end up on top ?
It's not possible.
Either it was not tied, or it was not nerfed, or the other races were not buffed.
There is absolutely no doubt that SM and Necrons received a huge buff with v7.
There is absolutely no doubt that the SeerStar has been nerfed.
There is doubt that the WS nerf may be compensated by the Objective Secure Meta shift.
There is statistical evidence that Eldar, Tau, SM, Necrons and Daemons were tied for top 5.
It does not even make sense to disagree with my conclusion unless you have elements that undermine the causes for that conclusion, and I would like to see some.
ThatSwellFella wrote: @morgoth, don't cry, even with psychic powers being harder to cast and this strange nerf which makes marines only option vs eldar(buttloads of drop podding sternguard) near useless, you STILL have the strongest race
That's the thing.
How can a race that used to be tied with the other races in the top 5.
That has received a raw power nerf to all of its competitive tools.
That is facing two of the other top 5 races that received mostly buffs with v7.
Still end up on top ?
It's not possible.
Either it was not tied, or it was not nerfed, or the other races were not buffed.
There is absolutely no doubt that SM and Necrons received a huge buff with v7.
There is absolutely no doubt that the SeerStar has been nerfed.
There is doubt that the WS nerf may be compensated by the Objective Secure Meta shift.
There is statistical evidence that Eldar, Tau, SM, Necrons and Daemons were tied for top 5.
It does not even make sense to disagree with my conclusion unless you have elements that undermine the causes for that conclusion, and I would like to see some.
Actually according to the Torrent of Fire Data..
Eldar had an overal win percentage of 64%, the highest of the Top 5.
Vs the other top five
Vs Daemons 56.7%
Vs Necrons 52.5%
Vs Space Marines 58.5%
Vs Tau 51.8%
Eldar, even in regards to the other Top Five were incredibly strong. They were not "tied" unless by "tied" you meant statistically commanding lead.
Eldar were also stronger against the other codices with the strongest showing among the top five. That is not "tied".
And what morgoth is saying would only be true if they actually got a nerf. With Wave Serpents being buffed so hard it more than makes up for the other stuff.
In other news, how many times has morgoth literally had to lie about statistics in this thread. I see he lied blatantly lied about having the majority on his side in the Wave Serpent thread, and about the torrentoffire statistics too, no doubt thinking people wouldn't bother checking him on either - anyone else pick up on statements by him that aren't just really bias/stupid opinions and are actually outright lies?
Indeed its patently clear from his own statements that he favours the most cheesy list and units so he can wipe his opponent off the table - and ironically given his own statements for people to get better and/or adpat is unable to do so himself or understand what is clear to almost everyone else that the Wave Serpent is even better now - so from blatently OP to horrifically so.....
The best codex at the moment is eldar but they are also the hardest to play i e they are cohesive. 7 out of top 10 at the 2014 LVO were Eldar.
Chaos is probably good if you struggle to get every ounce of advantage out of the board position. Tau are good but struggled in the LVO i also think tyranids are good. Orks might be good going forward. They are heavily underrated but as an eldar player (me personally) the hardest fought games are vs Orks. AV14 tranports with open topped with 50 shots and 2 squads of Nobz bikers with a warboss each gets into your line. The best way to avoid WS spam is to be in melee
morgoth wrote: SeerStar without a baron is better than with a baron, but the baron's main use was the 36 shot average 2++ and the Hit and Run, not the 2+ cover save
All things being equal, Witchfire has been nerfed, the damage output of the SeerStar is going to drop another notch and might well land it into not-that-competitive-anymore territory.
This post right here makes it pretty clear that you have very little knowledge of how a Seer Star functions.
The Baron's main use was NOT to tank wounds. He provided the unit with Stealth (2+ cover with conceal), +1 on your roll to go first, and most importantly, the Hit & Run rule. In 7th, Stealth is largely irrelevant because Jink is now 4+, but +1 to go first and H&R are still HUGE for the Star. The council has always had low damage output, it wins games by being almost unkillable (Which it still is) and by controlling the board (Impossible without H&R). Also in order to tank wound with the Baron, he would need to be up front. This is nearly impossible if you are looking for a T2 charge (which you should be) as you would not be able to flat out the bikes ahead of him across the board.
Also regarding your other posts, how the heck do you come to the conclusion that witchfires got nerfed? I'm sure if you ate a single Horrify + Psychic Shriek combo from my Council you might change your mind on that one.