I know that somewhere it says that the Adeptus Custodes are more powerful than the Primarchs but hypothetically, if a Daemon Primarch came through that hole in the Golden Throne would the Custodes be able to defeat them or would chaos finally defeat the Emperor?
Abaddon the armless wrote: I know that somewhere it says that the Adeptus Custodes are more powerful than the Primarchs but hypothetically, if a Daemon Primarch came through that hole in the Golden Throne would the Custodes be able to defeat them or would chaos finally defeat the Emperor?
Adeptus Custodes are not that powerful. A Custode is a very powerful astartes but they cannot single a primarch. In one of the HH novels Horus slays 5 Adeptus Custodes with minimal effort.
Since a by-product of the Golden Throne and the Emperor's "metabolism" is an anti-psyker material, I doubt anything Chaos-y would be too happy in the immediate vicinity.
For clarification: I forget the exact item, but I believe it's either Psycannon Ammo or those psyker grenades that are said to be full of it.
Abaddon the armless wrote: Never mind i read it wrong i thought it said the Custodes were more powerful than Primarchs but it said they were more powerful than Astartes. Sorry.
RileyJessup wrote: I do believe in one of the HH books Valdor the chief custode bested a primarch in close combat
Not in any Heresy book I have read. When Custodes come up in a topic one comment is always made, that Valdor beat Horus in a sparring match, but no on ever has been able to provide the source of the information. So it's dubious as to whether or not it is actually true and I highly doubt that it is.
As a general rule, Custodes are larger and stronger than Astartes. I would not say that this is true in every case as there are some exemplary Astartes out there and there are even Astartes who are mentioned as being larger and stronger than your usual Space Marine.
RileyJessup wrote: I do believe in one of the HH books Valdor the chief custode bested a primarch in close combat
Nah, this never happened.
The physical gap is simply too great. Custodians are on average a bit stronger, tougher, and quicker than Space Marines.
Primarchs can tear Custodians to pieces with their bare hands, and have done so. Just ask Angron, who butchered ten Custodians unarmed and unarmoured with his bare hands.
RileyJessup wrote: I do believe in one of the HH books Valdor the chief custode bested a primarch in close combat
Nah, this never happened.
The physical gap is simply too great. Custodians are on average a bit stronger, tougher, and quicker than Space Marines.
Primarchs can tear Custodians to pieces with their bare hands, and have done so. Just ask Angron, who butchered ten Custodians unarmed and unarmoured with his bare hands.
Well....Angron is the strongest of the primarchs. except for maybe sanq.
RileyJessup wrote: I do believe in one of the HH books Valdor the chief custode bested a primarch in close combat
Nah, this never happened.
The physical gap is simply too great. Custodians are on average a bit stronger, tougher, and quicker than Space Marines.
Primarchs can tear Custodians to pieces with their bare hands, and have done so. Just ask Angron, who butchered ten Custodians unarmed and unarmoured with his bare hands.
Well....Angron is the strongest of the primarchs. except for maybe sanq.
And yet Vulkan or Ferrus Manus would say otherwise
Angron is possibly one of, if not the best combatant, but not necessarily the strongest.
Ferrus Manus is the strongest because of his heavily augmented body. But flesh wise, Vulkan is the strongest. Vulkan grew up on Nocturne, and Nocturne had heavy gravity that naturally made all its inhabitants strong as a result. The Salamanders are even known to possess a bit more strength than their brother chapters but their reflexes were slightly slower.
My fluff may be a little off though, so if anyone knows differently, don't be shy.
Edit: this is a double post. If a moderator could delete it, thank you
Angron spent his life of Roids(butchers nails) and constant fighting. I would have to say he would be as strong(if not stronger ) than vulkan.
I know he was able to hold off a titan foot from crushing him(which just seems outrageous for fluff). But its hard to say, idk if the 2 primarchs ever crossed paths in battle.
DaKKaLAnce wrote: Angron spent his life of Roids(butchers nails) and constant fighting. I would have to say he would be as strong(if not stronger ) than vulkan.
I know he was able to hold off a titan foot from crushing him(which just seems outrageous for fluff). But its hard to say, idk if the 2 primarchs ever crossed paths in battle.
Angron stopping a titans foot from crushing him to a pulp? What is happening to 40k???? That is impossible.
Well, I guess Angron is the strongest. Psshh
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DaKKaLAnce wrote: Angron spent his life of Roids(butchers nails) and constant fighting. I would have to say he would be as strong(if not stronger ) than vulkan.
I know he was able to hold off a titan foot from crushing him(which just seems outrageous for fluff). But its hard to say, idk if the 2 primarchs ever crossed paths in battle.
Angron stopping a titans foot from crushing him to a pulp? What is happening to 40k???? That is impossible.
Primarchs arent exactly "normal". I mean yeah, angron shouldnt be able to do that in his normal form. Maybe if he was a deamon prince, then yeah i can see it
Titans in 40K are generally tiny next to comparable things.
Like, the main character in Mass Effect kills 3 Destroyers solo, despite Destroyers being well over twice the height of an Emperor titan.
Weight makes every bit of difference when it comes to strength.
Angron = 700 lbs, round about
Warlord Titan = 300 tons maybe? Something like that?
Yup, cannot be done. No way a 700 lbs primarch could lift 880,000 lbs. It is literally impossible. Angron should have been pancake.
Considering space marines are well over seven hundred pounds, Angron's at least well over a ton in armor. Probably something like 1,200-1,700. If not more depending on how dense a Primarch and his armor is.
Titans in 40K are generally tiny next to comparable things.
Like, the main character in Mass Effect kills 3 Destroyers solo, despite Destroyers being well over twice the height of an Emperor titan.
Weight makes every bit of difference when it comes to strength.
Angron = 700 lbs, round about
Warlord Titan = 300 tons maybe? Something like that?
Yup, cannot be done. No way a 700 lbs primarch could lift 880,000 lbs. It is literally impossible. Angron should have been pancake.
Considering space marines are well over seven hundred pounds, Angron's at least well over a ton in armor. Probably something like 1,200-1,700. If not more depending on how dense a Primarch and his armor is.
Eh, whatever. Like I said, compare that to 880,000 pounds and let me know if he can lift it.
Lord Tarkin wrote:Well, I guess Angron is the strongest. Psshh
It's explicitly stated that Vulkan or possibly Ferrus Manus are physically the strongest of the Primarchs if I recall correctly. Though where Magnus comes in if his Psychic might was dedicated to enhancing his strength I do not know.
Uh, alright y'all. If Angron can lift a titans foot than Vulkan can beat an Emperor class titan to scrap metal. I honestly don't buy that childish fairytale but if you wish to indulge than go ahead.
Lord Tarkin wrote: Uh, alright y'all. If Angron can lift a titans foot than Vulkan can beat an Emperor class titan to scrap metal. I honestly don't buy that childish fairytale but if you wish to indulge than go ahead.
He can't, because he can only reach the toe.
And he would smash that toe badly, for your information. Even with the toned-down-in-game-stats, he has something like 5-6 S10 AP1 attacks to smack it with.
Lord Tarkin wrote: Uh, alright y'all. If Angron can lift a titans foot than Vulkan can beat an Emperor class titan to scrap metal. I honestly don't buy that childish fairytale but if you wish to indulge than go ahead.
Why would pushing a Warhound suddenly equate to an exponential difference to ripping apart an Emperor Class Titan?
Lord Tarkin wrote: "Because he's a primarch" haha, I laugh at that. I am straight laughing on the floor.
He is a 10 ft tall 1,500 lbs man (without armour) and he cannot lift a 300 ton hulk of metal.
Yes, I said "man." He is indeed flesh and sinew and he must obey the laws of physics. Don't give me that ridiculous warp nonsense, he cannot do it.
Yes he can, or did you miss how the God Emperor bartered powers from the Chaos Gods to create the Primarchs.
I sometimes wonder if people have been living under a rock when it comes to 40K. 40K has been a lite version of DBZ for a while.
Dude, it doesn't matter. Calculate the difference in weight as I have done 3 times already. I understand this is 40k, a lot of stuff has scientific explaining to do but this goes way to far, even past the point of stupid.
Ashiraya wrote: Yes, laughing at the other side's argument is a polite and meaningful contribution to the discussion.
Ashiraya, I am still waiting for you to give me a single shred of meaningful debate. "Because he is a primarch" doesnt frickin explain a whole lot. Angron would have to be at least a quarter of that titans size to contend with it effectively.
Ashiraya wrote: Yes, laughing at the other side's argument is a polite and meaningful contribution to the discussion.
Ashiraya, I am still waiting for you to give me a single shred of meaningful debate. "Because he is a primarch" doesnt frickin explain a whole lot. Angron would have to be at least a quarter of that titans size to contend with it effectively.
When someone gave an actual reason you ignored them.
Ashiraya wrote: Yes, laughing at the other side's argument is a polite and meaningful contribution to the discussion.
Ashiraya, I am still waiting for you to give me a single shred of meaningful debate. "Because he is a primarch" doesnt frickin explain a whole lot. Angron would have to be at least a quarter of that titans size to contend with it effectively.
When someone gave an actual reason you ignored them.
You can interpret it as; Lord Tarkin has made his point quite clear as have everyone else. Conclusion is that everyone has their own fictional tolerance level and further arguing will do no good.
Weight makes every bit of difference when it comes to strength.
Angron = 700 lbs, round about
Warlord Titan = 300 tons maybe? Something like that?
Yup, cannot be done. No way a 700 lbs primarch could lift 880,000 lbs. It is literally impossible. Angron should have been pancake.
Superman weighs 240 pounds and he could lift a continent above his head. In All Star Superman he pushes a planet back to the universe it came from. All Star Superman is also a better work than anything 40k has ever put out.
Also, Angron stopping a Warhound from crushing him is easily one of his worst feats of strength. He picked a mountain off of him in False Gods with enough force to make it crumble and shatter like a bomb went off, and Magnus makes references to destroying mountains while training his martial abilities alongside his brothers in A Thousand Sons. Konrad Curze fell through the crust and mantle of Nostramo and crawled the feth back out.
Primarchs are superheroes. Classical mythological figures if you'd prefer, both of whom have reputations for being incredibly powerful fethheads accomplishing impossible feats.
Weight makes every bit of difference when it comes to strength.
Angron = 700 lbs, round about
Warlord Titan = 300 tons maybe? Something like that?
Yup, cannot be done. No way a 700 lbs primarch could lift 880,000 lbs. It is literally impossible. Angron should have been pancake.
Superman weighs 240 pounds and he could lift a continent above his head. In All Star Superman he pushes a planet back to the universe it came from. All Star Superman is also a better work than anything 40k has ever put out.
Also, Angron stopping a Warhound from crushing him is easily one of his worst feats of strength. He picked a mountain off of him in False Gods with enough force to make it crumble and shatter like a bomb went off, and Magnus makes references to destroying mountains while training his martial abilities alongside his brothers in A Thousand Sons. Konrad Curze fell through the crust and mantle of Nostramo and crawled the feth back out.
Primarchs are superheroes. Classical mythological figures if you'd prefer, both of whom have reputations for being incredibly powerful fethheads accomplishing impossible feats.
In False Gods the Technocracy blew up the mountain leading to it falling on Angron but he still lifted hundreds of tonnes off of himself to escape
Lord Tarkin wrote: "Because he's a primarch" haha, I laugh at that. I am straight laughing on the floor.
He is a 10 ft tall 1,500 lbs man (without armour) and he cannot lift a 300 ton hulk of metal.
Yes, I said "man." He is indeed flesh and sinew and he must obey the laws of physics. Don't give me that ridiculous warp nonsense, he cannot do it.
Yes he can, or did you miss how the God Emperor bartered powers from the Chaos Gods to create the Primarchs.
I sometimes wonder if people have been living under a rock when it comes to 40K. 40K has been a lite version of DBZ for a while.
Dude, it doesn't matter. Calculate the difference in weight as I have done 3 times already. I understand this is 40k, a lot of stuff has scientific explaining to do but this goes way to far, even past the point of stupid.
It always makes me smile how somebody can cry realism in a setting with space magical orks that can move engines with their will and guys who use swords on a battlefield with the most futuristic fire weapons available.
If you can't accept something relatively coherent with the setting such as a Primarch (a being part Emperor, part Warp) doing extraordinary feats, then maybe you should look at something else.
Lord Tarkin wrote: "Because he's a primarch" haha, I laugh at that. I am straight laughing on the floor.
He is a 10 ft tall 1,500 lbs man (without armour) and he cannot lift a 300 ton hulk of metal.
Yes, I said "man." He is indeed flesh and sinew and he must obey the laws of physics. Don't give me that ridiculous warp nonsense, he cannot do it.
Yes he can, or did you miss how the God Emperor bartered powers from the Chaos Gods to create the Primarchs.
I sometimes wonder if people have been living under a rock when it comes to 40K. 40K has been a lite version of DBZ for a while.
Dude, it doesn't matter. Calculate the difference in weight as I have done 3 times already. I understand this is 40k, a lot of stuff has scientific explaining to do but this goes way to far, even past the point of stupid.
You really don't seem to understand. Lemme make it very simple.
Primarchs. Are. magical. They were created from the warp by the GEOM. That's GC/HHbasic knowledge. The Primarchs are as much normal humans as the God Emperor is, or did you miss how they were originally stated as bulldozing mountains in the Index Astartes articles? The Hours Heresy series is a step down. The Warp doesn't give a flying gak about science, physical laws are simply an opinion to it, and it's how you end up with a lot of the crazy bs in 40K, like Alpha Psykers.
But seriously dude, have you just gotten into 40k or something? The Primarchs have always been lulzy levels of power. Curze arrived on Nostramo by smashing clean through the adamantanium crust of the planet in his pod, right into the mantle. He then crawled out as a baby coated in magma, unharmed.
DaKKaLAnce wrote: Ferrus would be stronger only because he is more machine than he is flesh
Um Ferrus wasn't largely bionics or anything like that. He had metal (well technically Necrodermis) hands, but was otherwise flesh and blood like the rest of the primarchs. His legion were the ones who were heavily into bionics (partially to simulate his metal hands), and that only became their dominate practice after his death.
Anyway, even ignoring the whole 'primarchs are magic superheroes who can do what they want' side of things, Angron holding up a Warhound's foot is that implausible imo. First of all, its a Warhound not a Warlord like some people seem to think, its the smallest Titan around and is no bigger than something like a Baneblade (which Vulkan was more than capable of pushing around, so a Primarch moving a something that big around is not unprecedented). Secondly he was only holding one foot up, he didn't lift the entire thing up by its waist so it wasn't carrying the entire weight. Given the size and construction of Titans I think its pretty safe to assume that they don't sprint around (even moreso in this context as it was a restrictive urban environment) i.e they are walking, which means the other foot is still on the ground and carrying most of the weight. When you read that sequence it is mostly made to sound like Angron is fighting the power from the servos and machinery that is trying to get the leg to straighten rather than the weight of the entire titan.
DaKKaLAnce wrote: Ferrus would be stronger only because he is more machine than he is flesh
Um Ferrus wasn't largely bionics or anything like that. He had metal (well technically Necrodermis) hands, but was otherwise flesh and blood like the rest of the primarchs. His legion were the ones who were heavily into bionics (partially to simulate his metal hands), and that only became their dominate practice after his death.
Anyway, even ignoring the whole 'primarchs are magic superheroes who can do what they want' side of things, Angron holding up a Warhound's foot is that implausible imo. First of all, its a Warhound not a Warlord like some people seem to think, its the smallest Titan around and is no bigger than something like a Baneblade (which Vulkan was more than capable of pushing around, so a Primarch moving a something that big around is not unprecedented). Secondly he was only holding one foot up, he didn't lift the entire thing up by its waist so it wasn't carrying the entire weight. Given the size and construction of Titans I think its pretty safe to assume that they don't sprint around (even moreso in this context as it was a restrictive urban environment) i.e they are walking, which means the other foot is still on the ground and carrying most of the weight. When you read that sequence it is mostly made to sound like Angron is fighting the power from the servos and machinery that is trying to get the leg to straighten rather than the weight of the entire titan.
That actually makes the feat more impressive.
It was running to crush Lorgar and Angron caught it.
He'd have been dealing with over a thousand tons of force.
RileyJessup wrote: I do believe in one of the HH books Valdor the chief custode bested a primarch in close combat
Nah, this never happened.
The physical gap is simply too great. Custodians are on average a bit stronger, tougher, and quicker than Space Marines.
Primarchs can tear Custodians to pieces with their bare hands, and have done so. Just ask Angron, who butchered ten Custodians unarmed and unarmoured with his bare hands.
What about Alpharius or Omeg? You think any Space Marines or Custodes could take them on?
DaKKaLAnce wrote: Ferrus would be stronger only because he is more machine than he is flesh
Um Ferrus wasn't largely bionics or anything like that. He had metal (well technically Necrodermis) hands, but was otherwise flesh and blood like the rest of the primarchs. His legion were the ones who were heavily into bionics (partially to simulate his metal hands), and that only became their dominate practice after his death.
Anyway, even ignoring the whole 'primarchs are magic superheroes who can do what they want' side of things, Angron holding up a Warhound's foot is that implausible imo. First of all, its a Warhound not a Warlord like some people seem to think, its the smallest Titan around and is no bigger than something like a Baneblade (which Vulkan was more than capable of pushing around, so a Primarch moving a something that big around is not unprecedented). Secondly he was only holding one foot up, he didn't lift the entire thing up by its waist so it wasn't carrying the entire weight. Given the size and construction of Titans I think its pretty safe to assume that they don't sprint around (even moreso in this context as it was a restrictive urban environment) i.e they are walking, which means the other foot is still on the ground and carrying most of the weight. When you read that sequence it is mostly made to sound like Angron is fighting the power from the servos and machinery that is trying to get the leg to straighten rather than the weight of the entire titan.
That actually makes the feat more impressive.
It was running to crush Lorgar and Angron caught it.
He'd have been dealing with over a thousand tons of force.
From memory it wasn't running. Lorgar takes a volley from the Warhound to the face from close range which overloads his TK shield and he goes down. The Titan commander see this and decides to walk his titan over and crush him rather than shoot him while he is down (presumably because he wanted to break the Word Bearers morale, which to be fair is a decent plan). Angron intercepts the foot as it is coming down, but I'm 99% sure the titan had walked up and then stamped its foot down ala crush Lorgar like a bug rather than doing a run up and just trying to crush him as he runs past (which seems like it could be tricky anyway since I'm guessing Titans don't have perfect control of where their feet land lol).
A lot of newcomers here, huh?
Well to answer your question no Custodes don't come close.
You could send all ten thousand Custodes against Angron and they would likely lose due to astronomical speed strength and skill differences. Send them against Magnus and he stops time and eviscerates them all at once.
Primarchs are the single most devastating thing you could ever come across, discounting starships.
In the case of the Daemon Primarchs Imperators present little threat in comparison.
Lord Tarkin wrote: Uh, alright y'all. If Angron can lift a titans foot than Vulkan can beat an Emperor class titan to scrap metal. I honestly don't buy that childish fairytale but if you wish to indulge than go ahead.
It did happen Tarkin, have a read of Betrayer. Lorgar takes a full Plasma Cannon blast to the boat race (face), lord knows how many bolter shells and then to make sure that he is dead the Princeps of the Warhound orders to crush him. Angron, who's been digging minecraft style, digs himself out of the hole and catches the foot before it can crush Lorgar.
In Promethean Sun Vulkan is throwing tanks, if I recall correctly, like they are tennis balls.
You could send all ten thousand Custodes against Angron and they would likely lose due to astronomical speed strength and skill differences.
I don't believe that for a second, sure Angron is a beast, but even he would succumb to weight of numbers and Custodes aren't slouches when it comes down to taking out the trash.
You could send all ten thousand Custodes against Angron and they would likely lose due to astronomical speed strength and skill differences.
I don't believe that for a second, sure Angron is a beast, but even he would succumb to weight of numbers and Custodes aren't slouches when it comes down to taking out the trash.
Yeah this is precisely what Russ shows Angron when the Wolves confront the World Eaters (this is prior to the heresy). Russ 'loses' the 1 v 1 duel with Angron, but in doing so he allows the Wolves to completely surround Angron (and crush the World Eaters in the process) making it pretty clear to all involved what the outcome would be. Sadly Angron is already too far gone to understand what Russ was trying to show him.
You could send all ten thousand Custodes against Angron and they would likely lose due to astronomical speed strength and skill differences.
I don't believe that for a second, sure Angron is a beast, but even he would succumb to weight of numbers and Custodes aren't slouches when it comes down to taking out the trash.
Yeah this is precisely what Russ shows Angron when the Wolves confront the World Eaters (this is prior to the heresy). Russ 'loses' the 1 v 1 duel with Angron, but in doing so he allows the Wolves to completely surround Angron (and crush the World Eaters in the process) making it pretty clear to all involved what the outcome would be. Sadly Angron is already too far gone to understand what Russ was trying to show him.
The SW did not slaughter the world eaters. SW suffered more casualties . Yes he had the chance to change the tide, but Russ was so upset with angrons blind rage, that he decided to retreat .
Yeah this is precisely what Russ shows Angron when the Wolves confront the World Eaters (this is prior to the heresy). Russ 'loses' the 1 v 1 duel with Angron, but in doing so he allows the Wolves to completely surround Angron (and crush the World Eaters in the process) making it pretty clear to all involved what the outcome would be. Sadly Angron is already too far gone to understand what Russ was trying to show him.
To be fair that was one of Aaron Dembski-Bowden's most terrible pieces of writing (And with him there's a lot of stiff competition).
"Hurrr hey guys my plan that hinges on sacrificing most of my force and killing a Primarch with bolters totally won't backfire when the World Eaters who've surrounded us suddenly converge on me and massacre us to a man".
The SW did not slaughter the world eaters. SW suffered more casualties . Yes he had the chance to change the tide, but Russ was so upset with angrons blind rage, that he decided to retreat .
Casualties aside (again from memory but I'm pretty sure the Wolves had lower numbers) its pretty clearly stated that the World Eaters come off second best in that fight if you ignore the Primarch duel. Kharn realises that while Angron bested Russ in doing so he showed that a) his Legion is far superior to the World Eaters because they fought as a single cohesive unit rather than as individuals and b) Angron doesn't care about his own life let alone the lives of his Legion. This is what Russ realises on the spot and is why he pulls back.
And I think you are missing the point Void, Russ' goal was not to systematically wipe out the World Eaters, it was to confront Angron and if needed bring him down and this is exactly what they set themselves up to do. I'm not sure how it was terribly written, this is just how the Wolves work - they are given a task and they do whatever is asked of them without hesitation in order to see it done, even if everyone will hate them for it.
It was terribly written because not only did Angron defeat Russ, but it was outright stated in the description of the battle that the World Eaters were collectively wiping the floor with the Space Wolves. Though the Wolves showed enough coordination to encircle Angron, they were in the process of getting killed to a man. So, as the battle is described, we're supposed to believe that:
A) a dozen Marines armed with bolters is somehow going to kill a being who's physically contested a Titan, tackled whole armies by himself and survived being buried under skyscraper-described mountains of rubble, twice.
and
B) That after killing Angron, the Wolves would somehow manage to get a borderline unconscious Russ safely back to their own ships, despite being outnumbered, overrun and ground down by frothing World Eaters.
The point that ADB was trying to make through Russ was a good one. He just did a poor job of illustrating it. If he had described the battle as being more of a stalemate, with the Space Wolves fighting conservatively and enticing the bulk of the World Eaters away from Angron and Russ' duel so that a handful of the Wolves could circle around them and assassinate Angron, that would be one thing. But that's not how the fight was described.
And I think you are missing the point Void, Russ' goal was not to systematically wipe out the World Eaters, it was to confront Angron and if needed bring him down and this is exactly what they set themselves up to do. I'm not sure how it was terribly written, this is just how the Wolves work - they are given a task and they do whatever is asked of them without hesitation in order to see it done, even if everyone will hate them for it.
It's terribly written because it expects us to buy that some Space Wolves with bolters can kill a Primarch (Despite what we've seen them survive in the book), which is a plot inconsistency. It's terribly written because Russ had his Wolves basically surround Angron while heightening the Wolves' losses considerably. So the Wolves kill Angron. So what? As has been established in the novel, the World Eaters wouldn't be demoralized at all if Angron died. Now you have nothing keeping the World Eaters from pursuing the Space Wolves (Either Angron or Kharn ordered them to relent after Russ fled), and the World Eaters have the Wolves vastly outnumbered and surrounded, spelling almost certain doom. The point the story hammers on ours heads is a farce, because if Russ went through with his little ploy and had Angron killed, the Wolves would have died, including Russ. Then there's Russ generally acting weird and out of character while speaking with Angron, though that's arguably not ADB's fault and is more Abnett's. It's still inconsistent though.
Also the World Eaters are a Legion that work fine without their Primarch, so what difference would losing Angron really make. It was a pointless lesson.
Russ probably would have done them a favour if he had managed to remove Angron though.
Sounds like he was given a matt ward treatment.
but make no mistake...He didnt just walk away unharmed. He was severally injured
I give Death the finger on this one.
Rise. Rise.
Angron is like 1/4 to 1/5 the height of the Titan you know. He is like 12 feet tall.
All the primarchs are made from massive amounts of power stolen from the Dark Gods.
Which is why they display strength far in excess of what thier body mass should allow like Daemons.
That was a beaten, bloody, armor less Angron too As a Daemon Angron was the size of a Reaver....
There was a scene in The Wolf of Ash and Fire where the Emperor fell into a fissure. Horus jumped after him, but the Custodes did as well. Plummeting into the lava and rock.
They would die for their Emperor without thinking. And they care not as durable as a Primarch, even Orks slaughtered them in combat. Against a Space Marine, the Custodes are equivalent of the best of them. Against a Primarch that were never slain by Orks? Well you can extrapolate.
The Orks did not 'slaughter' them, but Custodes did indeed fall in battle against Orks. Not just any Orks, it was the demigod-Orks of the HH era, but still Orks.
Ashiraya wrote: The Orks did not 'slaughter' them, but Custodes did indeed fall in battle against Orks. Not just any Orks, it was the demigod-Orks of the HH era, but still Orks.
Very true. Those same Orks almost killed Horus and Big E. The fact the Custodes could take them down like they did proves how powerful they are.
BlaxicanX wrote: A) a dozen Marines armed with bolters is somehow going to kill a being who's physically contested a Titan, tackled whole armies by himself and survived being buried under skyscraper-described mountains of rubble, twice.
This is only unreasonable if you forget that the fluff is full of propaganda and myth. The most reasonable explanation here is that the ridiculous stories of lifting titans and fighting whole armies at once are just like every other religious myth, and are wildly exaggerated if not outright fiction. On the other hand, the dozen bolter marines don't care about the myth, and would have been quite capable of killing their target. So what happens is that after 10,000 years of exaggeration and hero worship the primarch's feats have become so exaggerated that the scenario isn't plausible anymore, but the bolter marines are still there in the background even if asking why they are present is heresy.
BlaxicanX wrote: A) a dozen Marines armed with bolters is somehow going to kill a being who's physically contested a Titan, tackled whole armies by himself and survived being buried under skyscraper-described mountains of rubble, twice.
This is only unreasonable if you forget that the fluff is full of propaganda and myth. The most reasonable explanation here is that the ridiculous stories of lifting titans and fighting whole armies at once are just like every other religious myth, and are wildly exaggerated if not outright fiction. On the other hand, the dozen bolter marines don't care about the myth, and would have been quite capable of killing their target. So what happens is that after 10,000 years of exaggeration and hero worship the primarch's feats have become so exaggerated that the scenario isn't plausible anymore, but the bolter marines are still there in the background even if asking why they are present is heresy.
Peregrine wrote: This is only unreasonable if you forget that the fluff is full of propaganda and myth. The most reasonable explanation here is that the ridiculous stories of lifting titans and fighting whole armies at once are just like every other religious myth, and are wildly exaggerated if not outright fiction. On the other hand, the dozen bolter marines don't care about the myth, and would have been quite capable of killing their target. So what happens is that after 10,000 years of exaggeration and hero worship the primarch's feats have become so exaggerated that the scenario isn't plausible anymore, but the bolter marines are still there in the background even if asking why they are present is heresy.
But I don't care about personal opinions on what fluff is propaganda and what isn't.
I care only for what the fluff shows most consistently.
Hey guys, it's clear that a lot of things in 40K is propaganda. Those times when Guardsmen have been able to somehow damage targets in PA are clearly just myths spread to improve morale. As are the examples of Guardsmen somehow beating anything at all in close combat, or Hotshot Lasguns being effective against armour.
Masses? What masses? The idea of their being "a million" Imperial worlds is nothing but myth, legend and propaganda designed to fool Imperial citizens into believing that the Imperiun is vast and indomitable. Really the Imperium consists of only Terra and Mars.
BlaxicanX wrote: But I don't care about personal opinions on what fluff is propaganda and what isn't.
I care only for what the fluff shows most consistently.
But you have to consider WHY the fluff shows something consistently. Any story involving a primarch is going to consistently show them doing awesome things because that's the whole point of the prirmarchs. They're the main characters, and they're deliberately portrayed as larger than life heroes and villains. And the stories of the Heresy are explicitly legends of an almost-forgotten era, not a strictly factual account of history by an unbiased author.
Consider a similar situation in Star Wars: stormtrooper inaccuracy is a cliche, and the movies consistently show it. But which is the more reasonable explanation: that the empire's best troops are really that incompetent, or that they're consistently shooting at main characters who have to survive for story reasons?
Ashiraya wrote: Hey guys, it's clear that a lot of things in 40K is propaganda. Those times when Guardsmen have been able to somehow damage targets in PA are clearly just myths spread to improve morale. As are the examples of Guardsmen somehow beating anything at all in close combat, or Hotshot Lasguns being effective against armour.
Except you've got that backwards. Power armor durability is the myth, the reality is much more likely that it is roughly as effective as it is on the tabletop. That is, it's a good defense against small arms fire (though not so good that marines never need to take cover), but nearly useless against heavier weapons.
Peregrine wrote: [But you have to consider WHY the fluff shows something consistently. Any story involving a primarch is going to consistently show them doing awesome things because that's the whole point of the prirmarchs. They're the main characters, and they're deliberately portrayed as larger than life heroes and villains. And the stories of the Heresy are explicitly legends of an almost-forgotten era, not a strictly factual account of history by an unbiased author.
Consider a similar situation in Star Wars: stormtrooper inaccuracy is a cliche, and the movies consistently show it. But which is the more reasonable explanation: that the empire's best troops are really that incompetent, or that they're consistently shooting at main characters who have to survive for story reasons?
The difference between the two is that there is a massive plethora of Star Wars fluff that establishes Stormtroopers as being fairly competent soldiers with decent aim and ability- thus we can excuse their dismal performance within the movies as being plot-armor for the heroes on account of their portrayal as good soldiers being the more consistent portrayal within Star Wars fluff.
By comparison, you claim that Primarchs "aren't actually" as strong as they're consistently portrayed within the Heresy series, but have little if any fluff to substantiate that claim.
Except you've got that backwards. Power armor durability is the myth, the reality is much more likely that it is roughly as effective as it is on the tabletop. That is, it's a good defense against small arms fire (though not so good that marines never need to take cover), but nearly useless against heavier weapons.
You've got it all wrong. The durability of power armor as portrayed in the fluff is myths and legends. What's more likely is that power armor is actually completely indestructible and no Space Marine has ever been killed in battle.
Fluff depicting Space Marines being killed in battle by weapons of any kind is propaganda created by Xenos commanders to inspire their troops.
Except you've got that backwards. Power armor durability is the myth, the reality is much more likely that it is roughly as effective as it is on the tabletop. That is, it's a good defense against small arms fire (though not so good that marines never need to take cover), but nearly useless against heavier weapons.
I'd love to see your source on this. One that you can prove is not in-universe propaganda.
Void__Dragon wrote: You're confusing plot armour for deliberate attempts at portraying propaganda in work.
No, both of those things are definitely present. Characters have their plot armor, but the various sources are often inconsistent or don't make any sense from a realism perspective. The best way to resolve those inconsistencies is to remember that the story is usually told from an imperial perspective, and the authors have explicitly stated that there is no such thing as canon in 40k and events are often wildly exaggerated to tell a better story or long-forgotten history where the story is at best an approximation of what really happened.
When the fandom can arbitrarily decide what's false and what's real there can be no discussion.
It's not arbitrary, it's base on what makes the most sense. In the case of bolter marines vs. primarch, which is the more likely explanation: that the other primarch was an absolute ing idiot and didn't know that his bolter marines couldn't even scratch their target's paint, or that primarch durability is based primarily on myths and character shields and they can be killed by a hail of bolter fire.
Peregrine wrote: In the case of bolter marines vs. primarch, which is the more likely explanation: that the other primarch was an absolute ing idiot and didn't know that his bolter marines couldn't even scratch their target's paint, or that primarch durability is based primarily on myths and character shields and they can be killed by a hail of bolter fire.
What's most likely is that it was bad writing on ADB's part.
This same book outright establishes that the World Eaters were outnumbered, outgunned and outmaneuvered by the Ultramarines in the book's major battle, with the World Eaters being repeatedly routed, cut off from one another and falling into multiple traps and ambushes set by the Ultramarines. After taking several pages to establish this situation, ADB then, in the space of a page, describes how the World Eaters proceed to crush the Ultramarines and win the day because, even though they were strategically outmaneuvered on every level by the Ultramarines, they quote, "had nothing to live for", which gave them the advantage in the battle.
Ashiraya wrote: I'd love to see your source on this. One that you can prove is not in-universe propaganda.
Gameplay mechanics are an objective representation of the real universe since they aren't written from the perspective of any particular faction or character. Obviously there are limits to how precise you can get within the limits of a tabletop game and the D6 system, but the game tells us within a reasonable margin what is really happening. So power armor is clearly not penetrated by exactly 1/3 of all incoming lasgun shots, but we can reasonably assume that the actual effectiveness is something in that general range, not orders of magnitude better or worse.
As a bonus source, I'm too lazy to look for it, but I'm pretty sure you can find examples of marines taking cover against lasguns/bolters/etc, which is a concession that those weapons have a reasonable chance of killing a marine.
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BlaxicanX wrote: What's most likely is that it was bad writing on ADB's part.
But it's still an official source. Throwing out a source entirely because of bad writing should be the last resort, to be used only if there's no reasonable way to make it consistent with the rest of the setting.
Ashiraya wrote: I'd love to see your source on this. One that you can prove is not in-universe propaganda.
Gameplay mechanics are an objective representation of the real universe since they aren't written from the perspective of any particular faction or character. Obviously there are limits to how precise you can get within the limits of a tabletop game and the D6 system, but the game tells us within a reasonable margin what is really happening. So power armor is clearly not penetrated by exactly 1/3 of all incoming lasgun shots, but we can reasonably assume that the actual effectiveness is something in that general range, not orders of magnitude better or worse.
As a bonus source, I'm too lazy to look for it, but I'm pretty sure you can find examples of marines taking cover against lasguns/bolters/etc, which is a concession that those weapons have a reasonable chance of killing a marine.
Peregrine wrote: [But it's still an official source. Throwing out a source entirely because of bad writing should be the last resort,
Indeed. And Angron physically overpowering a Titan and Lorgar tanking plasma rounds from a Warhound titan are also an official source, and throwing out a source because of myths and legends should be a last resort.
BlaxicanX wrote: And Angron physically overpowering a Titan and Lorgar tanking plasma rounds from a Warhound titan are also an official source, and throwing out a source because of myths and legends should be a last resort.
Except there's no plausible way for those events to be real, you have to just handwave it away as "primarchs are magic". And if it's all just magic then who knows how it works? Maybe Angron has a 2++ against titans but a special rule that bolt weapons automatically wound and inflict instant death? Alternatively, you can recognize the that role of the primarchs in the story is the same as the heroes and villains of any other religion, and that includes wildly exaggerated feats of strength.
BlaxicanX wrote: And Angron physically overpowering a Titan and Lorgar tanking plasma rounds from a Warhound titan are also an official source, and throwing out a source because of myths and legends should be a last resort.
Except there's no plausible way for those events to be real, you have to just handwave it away as "primarchs are magic". And if it's all just magic then who knows how it works? Maybe Angron has a 2++ against titans but a special rule that bolt weapons automatically wound and inflict instant death? Alternatively, you can recognize the that role of the primarchs in the story is the same as the heroes and villains of any other religion, and that includes wildly exaggerated feats of strength.
Primarchs are magic, is that not the whole point of Emprah sealing deals with Chaos to make them and so on?
BlaxicanX wrote: And Angron physically overpowering a Titan and Lorgar tanking plasma rounds from a Warhound titan are also an official source, and throwing out a source because of myths and legends should be a last resort.
Except there's no plausible way for those events to be real, you have to just handwave it away as "primarchs are magic". And if it's all just magic then who knows how it works? Maybe Angron has a 2++ against titans but a special rule that bolt weapons automatically wound and inflict instant death? Alternatively, you can recognize the that role of the primarchs in the story is the same as the heroes and villains of any other religion, and that includes wildly exaggerated feats of strength.
There's no plausible way for half of Imperial aircraft to actually fly- there's no plausible way for a few thousand to million troops to be able to fight wars that encompass entire planets and even entire solar systems.
You might not know this, but 40K is a fantasy universe. It's not even science fiction. It's explicitly a fantasy universe.
Ashiraya wrote: I'd love to see your source on this. One that you can prove is not in-universe propaganda.
Gameplay mechanics are an objective representation of the real universe since they aren't written from the perspective of any particular faction or character. Obviously there are limits to how precise you can get within the limits of a tabletop game and the D6 system, but the game tells us within a reasonable margin what is really happening. So power armor is clearly not penetrated by exactly 1/3 of all incoming lasgun shots, but we can reasonably assume that the actual effectiveness is something in that general range, not orders of magnitude better or worse.
As a bonus source, I'm too lazy to look for it, but I'm pretty sure you can find examples of marines taking cover against lasguns/bolters/etc, which is a concession that those weapons have a reasonable chance of killing a marine.
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BlaxicanX wrote: What's most likely is that it was bad writing on ADB's part.
But it's still an official source. Throwing out a source entirely because of bad writing should be the last resort, to be used only if there's no reasonable way to make it consistent with the rest of the setting.
Eh, it is a safety precaution for anybody involved in a warzone to take cover from enemy fire, whether it be an autogun or a lascannon. Just because marines take cover against lasguns doesnt mean they are vulnerable to it
Consider a similar situation in Star Wars: stormtrooper inaccuracy is a cliche, and the movies consistently show it. But which is the more reasonable explanation: that the empire's best troops are really that incompetent, or that they're consistently shooting at main characters who have to survive for story reasons?
The Stormtroopers have to miss or the main characters would die. With the Primarchs the enemy does not have to miss. They often hit and the Primarch survives the attack.
In Galaxy in Flames Angron survives a torrent of bolter fire that would have killed any normal Marine, seems completely unharmed and proceeds tear through the Loyalist World Eaters. The Primarchs are also established to have been infused with the Warp and as such explaining their toughness or abilities due to what is essentially magic is reasonable. The majority of relevant background shows the Primarchs as pretty much immune to bolter fire (quite possibly to explain how generals who consistently lead from the front in dozens of large battles would survive). You can decide that it's all propaganda but there's little evidence for it.
No, both of those things are definitely present. Characters have their plot armor, but the various sources are often inconsistent or don't make any sense from a realism perspective. The best way to resolve those inconsistencies is to remember that the story is usually told from an imperial perspective, and the authors have explicitly stated that there is no such thing as canon in 40k and events are often wildly exaggerated to tell a better story or long-forgotten history where the story is at best an approximation of what really happened.
That's just the authors being too cowardly and stupid to make a definitive stance on what's canon or what isn't. What's explicitly stated is that it's all up to the "interpretation" of the fanbase which is just a marketing ploy. In the same statements the fluff created by players for their armies are characters is stated to be just as valid as "official" fluff. "Hey kids, your stories matter too!"
40k not having a canon doesn't help prove your point. I don't care about what yours or anyone else's personal interpretation of the fluff is. Only what is more or less the most consistent and what doesn't suck.
Oh, and realism perspective? This is a setting with giant bugs from another galaxy, fungus orcs, and the literal legions of space Hell. I don't care about realism because 40k isn't a realistic setting.
Or do you think Chaos in its entirety is just Imperial propaganda too?
It's not arbitrary, it's base on what makes the most sense. In the case of bolter marines vs. primarch, which is the more likely explanation: that the other primarch was an absolute ing idiot and didn't know that his bolter marines couldn't even scratch their target's paint, or that primarch durability is based primarily on myths and character shields and they can be killed by a hail of bolter fire.
I think Primarchs being largely incapable of being killed by small-arms fire and as such being able to survive thousands of battles filled with small-arms fire (While being a bigger target than a Space Marine) makes more sense than them being killed by small arms fire despite guys like Angron's entire style of warfare being defined as "Charge the enemy over an open field".
The Primarchs are not and will never be realistic. They aren't human beings, they owe more to mythological heroes like Hector, Achilles, Hercules, only brought to life.
What makes most sense about that instance in particular is bad, inconsistent writing, considering literally the exact same source showed a Primarch surviving being hit by a Plasma Blast Gun. Oh, but that part specifically was just a myth or a legend. The Primarch being killed by bolters wasn't though, right?
You're just picking and choosing what you like best.
Didn't Rogal Dorn supposedly die to a bunch of no-names in a Black Crusade? Why not Angron?
There's a huuugggee difference between the events of Betrayer and the Wolf and Red Angel going to war. In the former, Betrayer, Lorgar waz super juiced up on Chaos power and his own psychic abilities. And Angron was simply lifting a heavy object and performing resistance training. Anyone can do that to one degree or another at different pressures and resistances.
That's a hell of a lot of difference to have hundreds of large calibre explosive rounds explode inside your chest and head at close range.
Deadshot wrote: Didn't Rogal Dorn supposedly die to a bunch of no-names in a Black Crusade?
Did he? Do you have any evidence of that?
Last I heard, the Imp Fists merely found his hand laying around on a ship during the climax of the Crusade. The circumstances behind his death are a total mystery.
Deadshot wrote: Didn't Rogal Dorn supposedly die to a bunch of no-names in a Black Crusade?
Did he? Do you have any evidence of that?
Last I heard, the Imp Fists merely found his hand laying around on a ship during the climax of the Crusade. The circumstances behind his death are a total mystery.
That's why I said supposedly. Its the "official" story. Died on the ship, no one saw, all.they found was his hand.
There is no common belief on how Dorn died, because the events surrounding his death are a complete mystery. For all we know, Khorne himself could have dueled him in a 1v1 and killed him. Dorn could have cut his own hand off and vented himself out an airlock. We have no idea what happened.
Deadshot wrote: Didn't Rogal Dorn supposedly die to a bunch of no-names in a Black Crusade? Why not Angron?
There's a huuugggee difference between the events of Betrayer and the Wolf and Red Angel going to war. In the former, Betrayer, Lorgar waz super juiced up on Chaos power and his own psychic abilities. And Angron was simply lifting a heavy object and performing resistance training. Anyone can do that to one degree or another at different pressures and resistances.
That's a hell of a lot of difference to have hundreds of large calibre explosive rounds explode inside your chest and head at close range.
Angron had a bomb blow up and bury him under hundreds of feet of rubble in Betrayer.
Lorgar also wasn't amplified when he survived the Plasma Blast Gun.
Deadshot wrote: Didn't Rogal Dorn supposedly die to a bunch of no-names in a Black Crusade?
Did he? Do you have any evidence of that?
Last I heard, the Imp Fists merely found his hand laying around on a ship during the climax of the Crusade. The circumstances behind his death are a total mystery.
That's why I said supposedly. Its the "official" story. Died on the ship, no one saw, all.they found was his hand.
Which contradicts Angron and Lorgar and their little superman adjacent powers.
40k is science fiction, meaning its based off of technological and scientifical probabilities like time travel, warp travel, awesome plasma weaponry, ect. It is not about space magical gods like the primarchs. In a way, 40k has veered from its original sci fi universe and has become a marvel/DC universe instead and I am fairly dissapointed but oh well. Just my opinion and the rest of you can definitly choose to believe what you want.
About a squad of marines killing a primarch, I am surprised no one has brought up Unremembered Empire. A kill team of Alpha Legion put a serious hurt on Roubute with just bolters. Makes it seem plausible a number of space marines could bring down a primarch,
Ashiraya wrote: Primarchs are magic, is that not the whole point of Emprah sealing deals with Chaos to make them and so on?
Sure, but once you resort to "it's magic" you can no longer say things like "a primarch survived X therefore they should survive Y", since you have no idea what rules the magic works by and have conceded that it doesn't obey the usual laws of the universe. Maybe the primarch is protected from titans because they are doomed to die at the hands of an anonymous guardsman and his lasgun, and nothing can interfere with this fate. So when a random guardsman takes aim at a primarch we now have absolutely no idea what the result will be.
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Void__Dragon wrote: This is a setting with giant bugs from another galaxy, fungus orcs, and the literal legions of space Hell. I don't care about realism because 40k isn't a realistic setting.
That's not how it works. Yes, 40k has things like fungus orks, but what you have to do is ask "given that fungus orks exist, what should I expect to happen", not simply throw out the entire concept of realism. And by that rule we know that primarchs exist and that there are impressive stories of the feats they performed 10,000 years ago, so the question then is how to interpret them: do we take them as literal truth, or do we consider them myths and propaganda about a long-forgotten age? The former breaks all hope of realism, the latter allows at least some degree of realism to be maintained and fits the tabletop game fairly well.
The Primarchs are not and will never be realistic. They aren't human beings, they owe more to mythological heroes like Hector, Achilles, Hercules, only brought to life.
Yes! That's exactly the point! The primarchs are the equivalent of Achilles: when we hear the stories about how he was immune to any weapon except in his foot we don't start trying to figure out how exactly that worked and what would happen if a titan shot him, we understand that his invulnerability is part of the myth and assume that the real Achilles was simply a great, but mortal, warrior. Same with the primarchs, in the 40k setting they're the mythological heroes from 10,000 years ago, and they need to be understood in that context.
Ferros wrote: Since a by-product of the Golden Throne and the Emperor's "metabolism" is an anti-psyker material, I doubt anything Chaos-y would be too happy in the immediate vicinity.
For clarification: I forget the exact item, but I believe it's either Psycannon Ammo or those psyker grenades that are said to be full of it.
I think they put Emprah Dust in Psyker Grenades. Just a quick thought- if people snort warp dust, does anyone snort emprah dust?
Which contradicts Angron and Lorgar and their little superman adjacent powers.
40k is science fiction, meaning its based off of technological and scientifical probabilities like time travel, warp travel, awesome plasma weaponry, ect. It is not about space magical gods like the primarchs. In a way, 40k has veered from its original sci fi universe and has become a marvel/DC universe instead and I am fairly dissapointed but oh well. Just my opinion and the rest of you can definitly choose to believe what you want.
A. No it doesn't.
B. No it isn't. It was literally Warhammer Fantasy in space, only with sciencey terminology used to describe the magic.
Which contradicts Angron and Lorgar and their little superman adjacent powers.
40k is science fiction, meaning its based off of technological and scientifical probabilities like time travel, warp travel, awesome plasma weaponry, ect. It is not about space magical gods like the primarchs. In a way, 40k has veered from its original sci fi universe and has become a marvel/DC universe instead and I am fairly dissapointed but oh well. Just my opinion and the rest of you can definitly choose to believe what you want.
A. No it doesn't.
B. No it isn't. It was literally Warhammer Fantasy in space, only with sciencey terminology used to describe the magic.
Sure, but once you resort to "it's magic" you can no longer say things like "a primarch survived X therefore they should survive Y", since you have no idea what rules the magic works by and have conceded that it doesn't obey the usual laws of the universe. Maybe the primarch is protected from titans because they are doomed to die at the hands of an anonymous guardsman and his lasgun, and nothing can interfere with this fate. So when a random guardsman takes aim at a primarch we now have absolutely no idea what the result will be.
Sure, or maybe they're just supernaturally durable. The difference is my position has evidence to back it.
That's not how it works.
Yes, it is.
Yes, 40k has things like fungus orks, but what you have to do is ask "given that fungus orks exist, what should I expect to happen", not simply throw out the entire concept of realism. And by that rule we know that primarchs exist and that there are impressive stories of the feats they performed 10,000 years ago, so the question then is how to interpret them: do we take them as literal truth, or do we consider them myths and propaganda about a long-forgotten age? The former breaks all hope of realism, the latter allows at least some degree of realism to be maintained and fits the tabletop game fairly well.
I don't care if the former breaks all hope of realism, I'm not trying to make Warhammer 40,000 something it isn't.
As for it fitting the tabletop, oh yeah? Because on the tabletop the Primarchs are veritable beatsticks that slaughter the average Greater Daemon like they're made of tissue paper and take bolter rounds to the face with a smile. Sort of like the fluff.
Yes! That's exactly the point! The primarchs are the equivalent of Achilles: when we hear the stories about how he was immune to any weapon except in his foot we don't start trying to figure out how exactly that worked and what would happen if a titan shot him, we understand that his invulnerability is part of the myth and assume that the real Achilles was simply a great, but mortal, warrior. Same with the primarchs, in the 40k setting they're the mythological heroes from 10,000 years ago, and they need to be understood in that context.
The difference is that Achilles presumably didn't exist in a setting with actual planet-razing daemons nor was he expected to fight them in hand to hand combat. There's no proof the mythological creatures of antiquity existed. Bloodthirsters definitely do exist in 40k, and Sanguinius broke one of the mightiest of their number's backs over his knee.
Sure, but once you resort to "it's magic" you can no longer say things like "a primarch survived X therefore they should survive Y", since you have no idea what rules the magic works by and have conceded that it doesn't obey the usual laws of the universe. Maybe the primarch is protected from titans because they are doomed to die at the hands of an anonymous guardsman and his lasgun, and nothing can interfere with this fate. So when a random guardsman takes aim at a primarch we now have absolutely no idea what the result will be.
Sure, or maybe they're just supernaturally durable. The difference is my position has evidence to back it.
That's not how it works.
Yes, it is.
Yes, 40k has things like fungus orks, but what you have to do is ask "given that fungus orks exist, what should I expect to happen", not simply throw out the entire concept of realism. And by that rule we know that primarchs exist and that there are impressive stories of the feats they performed 10,000 years ago, so the question then is how to interpret them: do we take them as literal truth, or do we consider them myths and propaganda about a long-forgotten age? The former breaks all hope of realism, the latter allows at least some degree of realism to be maintained and fits the tabletop game fairly well.
I don't care if the former breaks all hope of realism, I'm not trying to make Warhammer 40,000 something it isn't.
As for it fitting the tabletop, oh yeah? Because on the tabletop the Primarchs are veritable beatsticks that slaughter the average Greater Daemon like they're made of tissue paper and take bolter rounds to the face with a smile. Sort of like the fluff.
Yes! That's exactly the point! The primarchs are the equivalent of Achilles: when we hear the stories about how he was immune to any weapon except in his foot we don't start trying to figure out how exactly that worked and what would happen if a titan shot him, we understand that his invulnerability is part of the myth and assume that the real Achilles was simply a great, but mortal, warrior. Same with the primarchs, in the 40k setting they're the mythological heroes from 10,000 years ago, and they need to be understood in that context.
The difference is that Achilles presumably didn't exist in a setting with actual planet-razing daemons nor was he expected to fight them in hand to hand combat. There's no proof the mythological creatures of antiquity existed. Bloodthirsters definitely do exist in 40k, and Sanguinius broke one of the mightiest of their number's backs over his knee.
Warhammer 40,000 features chainsaw swords, psychic spacemen, elves in space, orcs in space, undead robots, planet-eating bugs, three-hundred-metre-tall millennia-old walking battle cathedrals, soul-eating space stations and vehicles that travel faster because they're painted red (justified, sort of...), and that's just scratching the surface. The primary means of FTL is flying through Hell. In 40k, Rule of Cool is physics. As is Rule of Scary.
Warhammer 40,000 features chainsaw swords, psychic spacemen, elves in space, orcs in space, undead robots, planet-eating bugs, three-hundred-metre-tall millennia-old walking battle cathedrals, soul-eating space stations and vehicles that travel faster because they're painted red (justified, sort of...), and that's just scratching the surface. The primary means of FTL is flying through Hell. In 40k, Rule of Cool is physics. As is Rule of Scary.
Void__Dragon wrote: Why are those things perfectly plausible, but superhero Primarchs are not?
Nowhere did I say whether I believed it was plausible or not. I refuse to associate with you, so don't expect me to express my personal thoughts ever again. You refuse to even consider anybody elses opinions.
Nowhere did I say whether I believed it was plausible or not. I refuse to associate with you, so don't expect me to express my personal thoughts ever again. You refuse to even consider anybody elses opinions.
Then stop posting in the threads, because if you say things and I feel they warrant commenting on, I'm going to comment on them. That's what a forum is for.
Nowhere did I say whether I believed it was plausible or not. I refuse to associate with you, so don't expect me to express my personal thoughts ever again. You refuse to even consider anybody elses opinions.
Then stop posting in the threads, because if you say things and I feel they warrant commenting on, I'm going to comment on them. That's what a forum is for.
Or like, ignore me. I don't care, lol.
Or you can stop acting like you know everything, and you can you can stop acting like your intelligence is superior to everyone else.
Void__Dragon wrote: At no point did I insult you or your intelligence, we simply had a difference of opinion. I just happen to believe mine is better-founded than yours.
Hey, I didn't say anybodies opinions were better founded, I just know your opinions aren't as perfect as you think they are. Debating is fine. I just don't like the way you do it. You can include respect for other peoples opinions despite how badly you may disagree. Stop saying you know for a fact you are right and everyone else is wrong.
I ain't telling you what to do, I just appreciate a little consideration. Now, I'm gonna move on from this. Have a good night, I need to get some sleep.
Considering the discussion about Primarchs and their op-levelness in this thread has anyone got any thoughts on Abnett’s and Graham’s portrayal of their primarchs in their most recent works?
In contrast to ADB, these two gentlemen have a more down to earth approach with the Primarch powerlevels. Now don’t get me wrong, the primarchs in those novels still kicks ass and rightfully so, but now they also appear to be more vulnerable and less tanky.
Any thoughts about this? I’ll be happy to post some spoilers about this in the case it should be requested.
Deadshot wrote: Didn't Rogal Dorn supposedly die to a bunch of no-names in a Black Crusade? Why not Angron?
There's a huuugggee difference between the events of Betrayer and the Wolf and Red Angel going to war. In the former, Betrayer, Lorgar waz super juiced up on Chaos power and his own psychic abilities. And Angron was simply lifting a heavy object and performing resistance training. Anyone can do that to one degree or another at different pressures and resistances.
That's a hell of a lot of difference to have hundreds of large calibre explosive rounds explode inside your chest and head at close range.
Angron had a bomb blow up and bury him under hundreds of feet of rubble in Betrayer.
Lorgar also wasn't amplified when he survived the Plasma Blast Gun.
Just being buried doesn't mean all the weight is on top of you. Look at people stuck in mines when they cave in. There's hundreds of feet of dirt and rubble but the guys survive. Angron simply found a spot when enough weight was spread out to prevent him being crushed. Then he dug his way out, which would have been easy given his strength and stamina to dig, the poweeful chainaxes he used to saw through the rubble (although broke them) and his enhanced biology which allows him to survive on the tiny amount of air.
And Lorgar was powered up. He was powered up from the battle at Isstvan V where he unleashed his psychic power to prevent Corax killing the Gal Vorbak. Shortly before that Titan incident, Lorgar chucked his Crozius into a gunship and then "pulled it from the air on the power of pure spite" (paraphrased). Later, he is shown to regenerate at a rate that worries even Angron.
Redcruisair wrote: Considering the discussion about Primarchs and their op-levelness in this thread has anyone got any thoughts on Abnett’s and Graham’s portrayal of their primarchs in their most recent works?
In contrast to ADB, these two gentlemen have a more down to earth approach with the Primarch powerlevels. Now don’t get me wrong, the primarchs in those novels still kicks ass and rightfully so, but now they also appear to be more vulnerable and less tanky.
Any thoughts about this? I’ll be happy to post some spoilers about this in the case it should be requested.
Haven't been reading much of their latest works.
I do indeed request spoilers. Excited to see what they got going on.
To me it is not even so much about realism, than what I find cool and what I find puerile and stupid.
People are perfectly free to take HH books at face value, and I'm not going to tell them they're wrong; it is a valid interpretation. This is even though I think that HH novels are the worst thing that has ever happened to 40K background (them, or Mat Ward, I can't quite decide.) However, personally I continue regard HH stories as myths.
To me HH was cool when it was some ancient legends about things that happened ages ago. HH books took all those epic tales, took them literally, and made Primarchs boring invincible superheroes (with magic!) Frankly, I don't get why this appeals to people, but then again, I never understood why anyone liked Superman. It is not about making sense, 40K doesn't need to make sense, but I prefer it dark, dirty and gritty.
Crimson wrote: To me it is not even so much about realism, than what I find cool and what I find puerile and stupid.
People are perfectly free to take HH books at face value, and I'm not going to tell them they're wrong; it is a valid interpretation. This is even though I think that HH novels are the worst thing that has ever happened to 40K background (them, or Mat Ward, I can't quite decide.) However, personally I continue regard HH stories as myths.
To me HH was cool when it was some ancient legends about things that happened ages ago. HH books took all those epic tales, took them literally, and made Primarchs boring invincible superheroes (with magic!) Frankly, I don't get why this appeals to people, but then again, I never understood why anyone liked Superman. It is not about making sense, 40K doesn't need to make sense, but I prefer it dark, dirty and gritty.
I agree. I lost interest when I found out primarchs were quite litteraly gods. Of course primarchs are powerful, but it got out of hand with the lorgar and angron deal imo.
Warning! Spoilers from ‘Vengeful Spirit’ and ‘Unremembered Empire’ below.
Spoiler:
In Graham’s novel ‘Vengeful Spirit’, Horus along with Mortarion and Demon Fulgrim are ambushed by a squadron of Fire Raptors. The encounter leaves Horus and ascended-Fulgrim critically wounded, and much more surprising, Mortarion, the hardiest of all primarchs, nearly dead.
Spoiler:
Another scene in ‘Vengeful Spirit’, where Horus is corned and nearly shot to oblivion by a large formation of imperial knights, with Horus’ new routine of possessed terminator bodyguards sacrificing themselves in a desperate attempt to save their master. The author makes it clear, that prior to his bodyguard’s intervention, the situation was extremely dire for Horus.
Spoiler:
In ‘Unremembered Empire’, there is a scene in which an unarmed Guilliman is attacked by Ultramarines . Despite only being space marines armed with bolters and combat-knifes, they still manage to bring Guilliman down to his knees, with one marine sergeant having his blade on Robotue’s throat.
Oh and there were only ten of them. Yes that’s right folks, only ten of them.
Redcruisair wrote: Considering the discussion about Primarchs and their op-levelness in this thread has anyone got any thoughts on Abnett’s and Graham’s portrayal of their primarchs in their most recent works?
In contrast to ADB, these two gentlemen have a more down to earth approach with the Primarch powerlevels. Now don’t get me wrong, the primarchs in those novels still kicks ass and rightfully so, but now they also appear to be more vulnerable and less tanky.
Any thoughts about this? I’ll be happy to post some spoilers about this in the case it should be requested.
I think it contradicts McNeill's previous works where Angron lifts a mountain off the top of him, but okay.
If it is so easy to kill a Primarch, why did it never happen during the Great Crusade?
Just being buried doesn't mean all the weight is on top of you. Look at people stuck in mines when they cave in. There's hundreds of feet of dirt and rubble but the guys survive. Angron simply found a spot when enough weight was spread out to prevent him being crushed. Then he dug his way out, which would have been easy given his strength and stamina to dig, the poweeful chainaxes he used to saw through the rubble (although broke them) and his enhanced biology which allows him to survive on the tiny amount of air.
And Lorgar was powered up. He was powered up from the battle at Isstvan V where he unleashed his psychic power to prevent Corax killing the Gal Vorbak. Shortly before that Titan incident, Lorgar chucked his Crozius into a gunship and then "pulled it from the air on the power of pure spite" (paraphrased). Later, he is shown to regenerate at a rate that worries even Angron.
Oh okay, go ahead and ignore the "A bomb blew up on him" part if it suits your argument lol. Oh by the way, his arms not snapping when he caught the Titan's foot also proves that he should be virtually immune to bolters.
Uh, no, that was Lorgar having unlocked his psychic potential, which carries very different implications than "he was powered up". He was powered up when he channeled the spell that made Angron a Daemon Prince.
Just being buried doesn't mean all the weight is on top of you. Look at people stuck in mines when they cave in. There's hundreds of feet of dirt and rubble but the guys survive. Angron simply found a spot when enough weight was spread out to prevent him being crushed. Then he dug his way out, which would have been easy given his strength and stamina to dig, the poweeful chainaxes he used to saw through the rubble (although broke them) and his enhanced biology which allows him to survive on the tiny amount of air.
And Lorgar was powered up. He was powered up from the battle at Isstvan V where he unleashed his psychic power to prevent Corax killing the Gal Vorbak. Shortly before that Titan incident, Lorgar chucked his Crozius into a gunship and then "pulled it from the air on the power of pure spite" (paraphrased). Later, he is shown to regenerate at a rate that worries even Angron.
Oh okay, go ahead and ignore the "A bomb blew up on him" part if it suits your argument lol. Oh by the way, his arms not snapping when he caught the Titan's foot also proves that he should be virtually immune to bolters.
Uh, no, that was Lorgar having unlocked his psychic potential, which carries very different implications than "he was powered up". He was powered up when he channeled the spell that made Angron a Daemon Prince.
Ok, will address in order.
1: You didn't say it blew up on top of him. You said it blew up. Very different situations. Plus, why should a bomb kill him? When he's wearing armour and has that supersuperhuman biology?
2: That proves nothing of the sort. Like I said, its simple resistance training. Hell of a difference getting shot and a heavy object. Professional strongmen can lift heavy objects such as cars and pull lorries on a rope. But put a few 9mm through their chest and they'll have as much chance as anyone.
Scale that up to 12ft tall Primarchs with supersuperhuman strength. They can lift supersuperheavy objects such as pushing back the Warhound's foot, but put a few dozen extremely large, armour penetrating explosive Bolts in their organs and they'll die like everyone else because their organs are now pulped.
3: Is there a difference? He's embracing the source of his psychic powers and gets a buff to his psychic powers and then buffs himself? That sounds about right to me. He only took 1 shot and it wasn't even a full shot. IIRC, the first shot dissipated against a force field he set up. The second broke through and burned him but didn't kill, and it lost some of its energy to break through the shield.
I think it contradicts McNeill's previous works where Angron lifts a mountain off the top of him, but okay.
Maybe McNeil wanted to portray the primarchs in a new light? Who really knows?
I have always interpreted the mountain thing as just a how it looked to the onlookers. The whole event was seen through Loken’s eyes if I recall correctly.
Ultimately it comes down to how you interpreted the fluff. Some think Angron can lift mountains, while others think he was just pure fortunate to escape the trap unharmed.
If it is so easy to kill a Primarch, why did it never happen during the Great Crusade?
It has already happened, twice in fact. One died to beheading, another in a duel towards the end of the HH. And how many times has Vulkan died now? Probably more times than anyone here cares to remember.
You also need to consider that ultimately, the primarchs can’t be killed off. Many of them have roles to play later on. How do the authors cope with this? It’s really simple; they put the primarchs in situation where they are in mortal danger of dying. It’s like a flight simulation. Not the real thing, but still close enough.
I think an important question to ask oneself is whether we will see a turning point in how the primarchs are portrayed. Personally I think the HH authors, including ADB, are heading towards a more mature approach with their characters, with the primarchs included.
It has already happened, twice in fact. One died to beheading, another in a duel towards the end of the HH. And how many times has Vulkan died now? Probably more times than anyone here cares to remember.
It has already happened, twice in fact. One died to beheading, another in a duel towards the end of the HH. And how many times has Vulkan died now? Probably more times than anyone here cares to remember.
Fyi he said Great Crusade, not Horus Heresy.
The Great Crusade was a time of great success, who cares.
As RedCruisair has explicitly said, he was referring to the HH. Alpharius, Ferrus Manus, Konrad Curze, Sanguinius, and of course Horus died during the heresy and the scouring. Things got very grimdark from there on.
If it is so easy to kill a Primarch, why did it never happen during the Great Crusade?
For the same reason James Bond or Indiana Jones have not been killed although they've been in countless ridiculously dangerous situations. (Hint: it is not because they're immune to bullets.)
If it is so easy to kill a Primarch, why did it never happen during the Great Crusade?
For the same reason James Bond or Indiana Jones have not been killed although they've been in countless ridiculously dangerous situations. (Hint: it is not because they're immune to bullets.)
My my, disguising subjective interpretations as objective fact now again are we? Naughty Crimson.
For the same reason James Bond or Indiana Jones have not been killed although they've been in countless ridiculously dangerous situations. (Hint: it is not because they're immune to bullets.)
So rather than a 40k universe where the Primarchs' survival is explained in-universe, you'd prefer it be explained by bad writing?
The Great Crusade was a time of great success, who cares.
As RedCruisair has explicitly said, he was referring to the HH. Alpharius, Ferrus Manus, Konrad Curze, Sanguinius, and of course Horus died during the heresy and the scouring. Things got very grimdark from there on.
All but one of those Primarchs were killed by another Primarch.
At no point did I state or imply that Primarchs couldn't die.
1: You didn't say it blew up on top of him. You said it blew up. Very different situations. Plus, why should a bomb kill him? When he's wearing armour and has that supersuperhuman biology?
Fair enough on the first part, that was poor wording.
As for the second part, how exactly does that help your case that Primarchs being killed by Marines with bolters is consistent with the story? If a few city blocks being destroyed by a bomb can't do it, why can a localized anti-infantry missile do so?
2: That proves nothing of the sort. Like I said, its simple resistance training. Hell of a difference getting shot and a heavy object. Professional strongmen can lift heavy objects such as cars and pull lorries on a rope. But put a few 9mm through their chest and they'll have as much chance as anyone.
The trick with using real-life physics to support your argument is that you have to make sure the analogy works. The reason a bullet can harm even very strong men (And by the way, their impact resistant muscles and bones would give them a better chance of being relatively unharmed than your average joe) is because bullets have a great deal of kinetic energy for their size (1,800 joules for an M16 rifle bullet, compared to, say, the 780 joules of the world record men's shot put throw), and indeed because of their size. All that energy is effecting a very small part of your body, whereas when lifting something about your head it's spread throughout your entire body.
Someone who could lift 10 tons' skeleton and muscles would be probably be virtually immune to a nine millimeter bullet.
Angron stopped a Titan's attack without being killed. Space Marines' in their power armour can even absorb bolter fire, yet if a Titan attacks them in melee or steps on them, they die. Why do you think that is?
Scale that up to 12ft tall Primarchs with supersuperhuman strength. They can lift supersuperheavy objects such as pushing back the Warhound's foot, but put a few dozen extremely large, armour penetrating explosive Bolts in their organs and they'll die like everyone else because their organs are now pulped.
What makes you think Primarchs have conventional organs like humans or even Marines?
Before you scoff at this question, Ahriman outright states that Magnus, his Primarch, had nothing so base as physical organs made of matter within his body, or something to that effect, during the Council of Nkaea.
And you're skipping one crucial step in firing a bolter and killing a Primarch. It has to penetrate his armour, skin, muscle, and bones before it can reach his organs.
3: Is there a difference? He's embracing the source of his psychic powers and gets a buff to his psychic powers and then buffs himself? That sounds about right to me. He only took 1 shot and it wasn't even a full shot. IIRC, the first shot dissipated against a force field he set up. The second broke through and burned him but didn't kill, and it lost some of its energy to break through the shield.
Yeah, the difference is that's his standard level of power right now, lol. And he's still less physically mighty and hardy than Angron.
You say he "only took one shot" but that one shot's power outstrips a bolter by several orders of magnitude. It's inconsistent.
Maybe McNeil wanted to portray the primarchs in a new light? Who really knows?
I won't know until I read it myself.
No offense to you personally but I learned long ago to not trust what people on Dakka tell me.
I have always interpreted the mountain thing as just a how it looked to the onlookers. The whole event was seen through Loken’s eyes if I recall correctly.
Ultimately it comes down to how you interpreted the fluff. Some think Angron can lift mountains, while others think he was just pure fortunate to escape the trap unharmed.
The narration explicitly says "thousands of tons" and he burst out with enough force to make onlookers think there was another bomb.
It has already happened, twice in fact. One died to beheading, another in a duel towards the end of the HH. And how many times has Vulkan died now? Probably more times than anyone here cares to remember.
Which one is the duel?
Also, which one of those is a death that wasn't to another Primarch?
You also need to consider that ultimately, the primarchs can’t be killed off. Many of them have roles to play later on. How do the authors cope with this? It’s really simple; they put the primarchs in situation where they are in mortal danger of dying. It’s like a flight simulation. Not the real thing, but still close enough.
Okay.
I think an important question to ask oneself is whether we will see a turning point in how the primarchs are portrayed. Personally I think the HH authors, including ADB, are heading towards a more mature approach with their characters, with the primarchs included.
Ah and here it starts.
Why is it more mature? Explain to me, in detail, why Primarchs being weaker is more mature than them being stronger. And then I will explain to you why making Primarchs weaker does nothing to make the stories more mature and that there exist stories with far more powerful characters than the Primarchs that are more mature than anything GW or BL have ever had their hand in.
So rather than a 40k universe where the Primarchs' survival is explained in-universe, you'd prefer it be explained by bad writing?
Having your main characters not to die before to story even starts is not exactly bad writing. (Granted, having the main character die before the story starts and still make the story work could possibly be brilliant writing.)
It is utterly absurd to conclude that because these guys went to war and didn't die, they must be immune to weapons.
We have now seen a Primarch Threatened by a chainsword and another by bolters. One was killed by a normal assassin. They obviously are not immune to normal weapons. And frankly, cannot fathom why you would want them to be; it diminishes them. An invincible hero is boring as feth. He cannot be brave, because there is no danger to him.
So rather than a 40k universe where the Primarchs' survival is explained in-universe, you'd prefer it be explained by bad writing?
Having your main characters not to die before to story even starts is not exactly bad writing. (Granted, having the main character die before the story starts and still make the story work could possibly be brilliant writing.)
It is utterly absurd to conclude that because these guys went to war and didn't die, they must be immune to weapons.
We have now seen a Primarch Threatened by a chainsword and another by bolters. One was killed by a normal assassin. They obviously are not immune to normal weapons. And frankly, cannot fathom why you would want them to be; it diminishes them. An invincible hero is boring as feth. He cannot be brave, because there is no danger to him.
I agree. Very boring and contradictive of 40k's plot
Having your main characters not to die before to story even starts is not exactly bad writing. (Granted, having the main character die before the story starts and still make the story work could possibly be brilliant writing.)
It is utterly absurd to conclude that because these guys went to war and didn't die, they must be immune to weapons.
No, but plot armour, aka what you asserted to be the direct cause of their survival, is bad writing.
I didn't say they were immune to weapons. Just small-arms fire.
We have now seen a Primarch Threatened by a chainsword and another by bolters. One was killed by a normal assassin. They obviously are not immune to normal weapons. And frankly, cannot fathom why you would want them to be; it diminishes them. An invincible hero is boring as feth. He cannot be brave, because there is no danger to him.
Which one was threatened by a chainsword, and given what context? I mean, forgive me for not trusting you at your word given your track record, considering in the very post I'm quoting you're ignoring that the "normal assassin" killed him with a C'tan Phase Sword. Which can cut through any material (Or could when that was written, anyway).
Yeah? Is that why the character of Achilles, who never lost a single fight and was touted as invincible (And indeed could rout entire armies) is still studied by serious academics to this day? There's more to a character than bravery, and it isn't a prerequisite for being a good character (Also it ignores that there are things in the setting like Greater Daemons that are about as strong as they are so they can still be challenged). I don't like Magnus the Red because he's brave, I like him because he was a very flawed, even tragic character who had the best of intentions but ultimately failed to follow up on them due to his pride, and more to the point because he was denied doing so by Fate itself.
Bravery is but one facet of his personality that barely registers in my enjoyment of him.
Having your main characters not to die before to story even starts is not exactly bad writing. (Granted, having the main character die before the story starts and still make the story work could possibly be brilliant writing.)
It is utterly absurd to conclude that because these guys went to war and didn't die, they must be immune to weapons.
No, but plot armour, aka what you asserted to be the direct cause of their survival, is bad writing.
I didn't say they were immune to weapons. Just small-arms fire.
We have now seen a Primarch Threatened by a chainsword and another by bolters. One was killed by a normal assassin. They obviously are not immune to normal weapons. And frankly, cannot fathom why you would want them to be; it diminishes them. An invincible hero is boring as feth. He cannot be brave, because there is no danger to him.
Which one was threatened by a chainsword, and given what context? I mean, forgive me for not trusting you at your word given your track record, considering in the very post I'm quoting you're ignoring that the "normal assassin" killed him with a C'tan Phase Sword. Which can cut through any material (Or could when that was written, anyway).
Yeah? Is that why the character of Achilles, who never lost a single fight and was touted as invincible (And indeed could rout entire armies) is still studied by serious academics to this day? There's more to a character than bravery, and it isn't a prerequisite for being a good character (Also it ignores that there are things in the setting like Greater Daemons that are about as strong as they are so they can still be challenged). I don't like Magnus the Red because he's brave, I like him because he was a very flawed, even tragic character who had the best of intentions but ultimately failed to follow up on them due to his pride, and more to the point because he was denied doing so by Fate itself.
Bravery is but one facet of his personality that barely registers in my enjoyment of him.
You don't trust what anybody on Dakka says, so why are you even here? You're just here to preach the invulnerability of primarchs. I'm sure a primarch could tank quite a few bolt shots but he ain't immune. Gulliman was almost killed by bolters himself.
"This would almost cost the Primarch his life as Thiel and his men revealed themselves to be Alpha Legion assassins and shot Gulliman at point blank range with their bolters, though the Primarch managed to kill all of them before collapsing." -Lexicanum
Void__Dragon wrote: Which is a big difference from saying they're invulnerable.
It depends on the fluff you read. Obviously there are instances where it has happened, this discussion was brought up by my comment on it.
But the instance in Betrayer contradicted other showings throughout the book.
Exactly. I would have an easier time agreeing with you if everything wasn't so contradictory, but it is so I am forced to believe in what makes the most sense. I find it hilarious that Lorgar can survive being scorched with plasma yet Guiliman is almost dead because a squad of Alpha Legionaries put a load of bolt rounds in him. It doesn't match at all.
Oh right, the one that with the current Forgeworld books has them having Mk6 and early vengeance rounds, the one that isn't bound by dogma in only using Imperium produced stuff, you know .... the Alpha Legion. The group that I'd put money on being able to take down a primarch without being a primarch amped on chaos. Or the random mooks that Rogal Dorn found.
@Void_Dragon, in response to your responses earlier to me.
First off, the reason a bomb couldn't do it and why Bolts could is simple. Not all of the bomb's energy is directed at Angron firstly. Only a part of it is. Most of it would be directed elsewhere in a radius around him. Secondly, the Bolts penetrate and explode inside, so not only is he suffering the effects of the bullet hole but also having his insides take the full force of the shrapnel and explosive force. Presumably his armour has enough protection to dampen enough of the bomb's force to prevent it killing him, along with that superhuman biology to absorb and withstand the explosive *external* force. His organs don't have any protection but their own toughness.
Secondly, the bullet would still kill him if you put twenty or thirty into him. Which is clearly the intention of Russ (hypothetically speaking as it was a demonstration). Put a couple hundred rounds into Angron and he'll die. His armour is solid meaning that each impact weakens its atomic structure. Eventually it'll crack and split open and he'll be filled with rounds and slain.
Thirdly, Marines die to Titan feet because they do not have the physical strength or skeletal strength to withstand that pressure. Same reason normal humans can't lift cars above their heads. Their muscles will tear and their bones shatter before they can. SM can't push back a Titan because their bones would shatter and muscles rip.
Angron's muscles and bones are much more durable as everything ever written about them speaks of how much stronger and faster etc, than a marine they are. Also note that even Angron nearly COULDN'T hold back that Titan for much longer. In the passage, it clearly states (my favourite part of the whole book) that "He (Angron) could feel the bones in his spine and legs begin to splinter and crack..." or something to that effect.
Finally, addressing Lorgar. You know not what his powers could do to him. Why is it not possible for him to buff his physical prowess with his psychic powers? Although game =/= as everyone loves saying, there is the Iron Arm power in the game. The ability to buff exists within the setting, why can't Lorgar use it?
Moving on to the shield...you are trying to calculate an unknown amount of energy being fired from the weapon (A) an unknown amount of energy that penetrated the shield (B) an unknown amount of energy lost between breaking the shield and hitting Lorgar (C)and Lorgar's resistance to that energy damage, also unknown (D) to calculate the actual damage done (E)
So in short and simple terms...
E= A - (B+C+D)
Calculate this for me please?
I'm not saying Angron is going down in a few rounds. But given that each standard marine bolter carries 30 rounds, and there is likely around 10-20 marines surrounded him, thats about 300-600 rounds, assuming all SW reloaded to a full magazine, which I expect they would.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, in reference to the Chainsword bit;
The unprotected skin would be shredded on the throat. Its never been even suggested that Primarch's skin is impervious to harm. Only that they are in battle by a combination of sublime skill and speed and strength and their unmatched armour.
Secondly, the Assassin was of the Callidus temple. Carries a C'tan Phase Sword which are said to kill by a scratch. Plus, the official story goes that Curze knew of the assassin all along, and allowed the inflitration and assassination because he was disgusted at what he had become.
Automatically Appended Next Post: One last point;
How the hell does Ahriman know what Magnus has inside him? Only the Emperor has any clue what the Primarchs are like inside. Ahriman has no idea, that's nought but his thoughts. He may be right but its his wild guess and nothing more.
Sooo... ”thousands of tons” of ruble magically stags on Angron’s head then? Do you think this a likely scenario Void_Dragon? Chances are as I said before that Angron got lucky in escaping the trap. Especially considering how much of a bloody ruined mess Angron was in Betrayer after getting buried for the second time.
Void__Dragon wrote: and he burst out with enough force to make onlookers think there was another bomb.
Angron bursting out of the ruins with a force equating an explosion is sing of power, not invulnerability, which is the thing I’m arguing against.
Why is it more mature? Explain to me, in detail, why Primarchs being weaker is more mature than them being stronger. And then I will explain to you why making Primarchs weaker does nothing to make the stories more mature and that there exist stories with far more powerful characters than the Primarchs that are more mature than anything GW or BL have ever had their hand in.
I should have worded that differently. “More down to earth” would have been a more fitting description.
The titan would have killed angron if nor for Lorgar you stopped it from smashing him. Then Angron got up and helped.
Angron is the strongest though by a smidge. Manus and Vulkan are right there, and as far as I know Ferrus Manus has no augmetics at all. Even his metal hands aren't an augmetic.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lord Tarkin wrote: "Because he's a primarch" haha, I laugh at that. I am straight laughing on the floor.
He is a 10 ft tall 1,500 lbs man (without armour) and he cannot lift a 300 ton hulk of metal.
Yes, I said "man." He is indeed flesh and sinew and he must obey the laws of physics. Don't give me that ridiculous warp nonsense, he cannot do it.
Read Betrayer because you're making a fool out of yourself in this thread, and Angron is the strongest. Some books say Manus or Vulkan could match him but most just say Angron is hands down the strongest.
DaKKaLAnce wrote: Ferrus would be stronger only because he is more machine than he is flesh
Um Ferrus wasn't largely bionics or anything like that. He had metal (well technically Necrodermis) hands, but was otherwise flesh and blood like the rest of the primarchs. His legion were the ones who were heavily into bionics (partially to simulate his metal hands), and that only became their dominate practice after his death.
Anyway, even ignoring the whole 'primarchs are magic superheroes who can do what they want' side of things, Angron holding up a Warhound's foot is that implausible imo. First of all, its a Warhound not a Warlord like some people seem to think, its the smallest Titan around and is no bigger than something like a Baneblade (which Vulkan was more than capable of pushing around, so a Primarch moving a something that big around is not unprecedented). Secondly he was only holding one foot up, he didn't lift the entire thing up by its waist so it wasn't carrying the entire weight. Given the size and construction of Titans I think its pretty safe to assume that they don't sprint around (even moreso in this context as it was a restrictive urban environment) i.e they are walking, which means the other foot is still on the ground and carrying most of the weight. When you read that sequence it is mostly made to sound like Angron is fighting the power from the servos and machinery that is trying to get the leg to straighten rather than the weight of the entire titan.
That actually makes the feat more impressive.
It was running to crush Lorgar and Angron caught it.
He'd have been dealing with over a thousand tons of force.
No it was running to crush Angron and Lorgar caught it. Then when Lorgar could barely hold it anymore Angron picked his injured body up and went and to the load from Lorgar and tossed the thin over
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ThePrimordial wrote: A lot of newcomers here, huh?
Well to answer your question no Custodes don't come close.
You could send all ten thousand Custodes against Angron and they would likely lose due to astronomical speed strength and skill differences. Send them against Magnus and he stops time and eviscerates them all at once.
Primarchs are the single most devastating thing you could ever come across, discounting starships.
In the case of the Daemon Primarchs Imperators present little threat in comparison.
No they couldn't take all ten thousand. Dorn was killed by simple Astartes
Read Betrayer because you're making a fool out of yourself in this thread, and Angron is the strongest. Some books say Manus or Vulkan could match him but most just say Angron is hands down the strongest.
If I recall correctly many books have people saying Angron is one of the greatest Primarchs in (personal) combat. Manus and Vulkan, however, are physically stronger. They might not win in a fight but they'd be able to lift greater weights.
No they couldn't take all ten thousand. Dorn was killed by simple Astartes
It was never said what exactly Dorn was killed by (if indeed he was). Could have been cultists, normal or possessed Chaos Space Marines, an army of daemonhosts. He could have been injured before anyone attacked him with a blade; they could have used daemon weapons. We don't know.
All that is assuming Curze's vision is actually true.
Deadshot wrote: @Void_Dragon, in response to your responses earlier to me.
First off, the reason a bomb couldn't do it and why Bolts could is simple. Not all of the bomb's energy is directed at Angron firstly. Only a part of it is. Most of it would be directed elsewhere in a radius around him.
Depends on how close he was to ground zero, which I'll admit I don't know.
Secondly, the Bolts penetrate and explode inside, so not only is he suffering the effects of the bullet hole but also having his insides take the full force of the shrapnel and explosive force. Presumably his armour has enough protection to dampen enough of the bomb's force to prevent it killing him, along with that superhuman biology to absorb and withstand the explosive *external* force. His organs don't have any protection but their own toughness.
Which is still superhuman, inertia would dictate that his organs would have to be super tough to take building-shattering blows and not be pulped inside of him. It's the same principle as a mace hitting a man in armour, the armour is more or less fine but the person below just had his arm broken.
Secondly, the bullet would still kill him if you put twenty or thirty into him. Which is clearly the intention of Russ (hypothetically speaking as it was a demonstration). Put a couple hundred rounds into Angron and he'll die. His armour is solid meaning that each impact weakens its atomic structure. Eventually it'll crack and split open and he'll be filled with rounds and slain.
If a single bullet does no damage, how much damage do you imagine thirty will do? 30 X 0 = 0.
Thirdly, Marines die to Titan feet because they do not have the physical strength or skeletal strength to withstand that pressure. Same reason normal humans can't lift cars above their heads. Their muscles will tear and their bones shatter before they can. SM can't push back a Titan because their bones would shatter and muscles rip.
Now we're getting somewhere.
How is withstanding pressure not a showing of durability?
Angron's muscles and bones are much more durable as everything ever written about them speaks of how much stronger and faster etc, than a marine they are. Also note that even Angron nearly COULDN'T hold back that Titan for much longer. In the passage, it clearly states (my favourite part of the whole book) that "He (Angron) could feel the bones in his spine and legs begin to splinter and crack..." or something to that effect.
So what you're saying is that because his muscles and bones are so durable he could withstand it? So he's durable enough to do so, and it's a showing of durability?
You'll also note that Angron was already very tired and badly wounded beforehand, being a bloodied mess before he even touched the Titan.
Finally, addressing Lorgar. You know not what his powers could do to him. Why is it not possible for him to buff his physical prowess with his psychic powers? Although game =/= as everyone loves saying, there is the Iron Arm power in the game. The ability to buff exists within the setting, why can't Lorgar use it?
It's possible, but we didn't see him do it. He just used a Kine shield. Lorgar himself doesn't seem to make much use of biomancy like his brother Magnus does (Though Magnus can use all the disciplines) that I can recall.
Moving on to the shield...you are trying to calculate an unknown amount of energy being fired from the weapon (A) an unknown amount of energy that penetrated the shield (B) an unknown amount of energy lost between breaking the shield and hitting Lorgar (C)and Lorgar's resistance to that energy damage, also unknown (D) to calculate the actual damage done (E)
So in short and simple terms...
E= A - (B+C+D)
Calculate this for me please?
Valid point, but I know one thing: It did more damage than taking a power fist wielded by Guilliman to his chest.
I'm not saying Angron is going down in a few rounds. But given that each standard marine bolter carries 30 rounds, and there is likely around 10-20 marines surrounded him, thats about 300-600 rounds, assuming all SW reloaded to a full magazine, which I expect they would.
This relies on a couple assumptions. One is that Angron (Who wasn't badly injured) stands there and doesn't begin ripping into the surrounding Space Wolves. Another is that bolt rounds have even a good chance of hurting Angron, much less killing him (Considering his armour and toughness, and what he's survived, they aren't doing much more than scratch damage).
I'll admit that a bolter can potentially wound a Primarch, even with the high-end showings in Betrayer (And only Betrayer, with other stories it varies as I said), but does it have any good chance to kill? Nah, not really.
The very notion of Primarchs being killed by a small group of Marines in particular becomes ridiculous once one realizes that they are peers and actually quite a bit stronger than most Greater Daemons.
Also, in reference to the Chainsword bit;
The unprotected skin would be shredded on the throat. Its never been even suggested that Primarch's skin is impervious to harm. Only that they are in battle by a combination of sublime skill and speed and strength and their unmatched armour.
No, I'm pretty sure that it's suggested that Primarch flesh is nigh-invulnerable, much like the Greater Daemons they regularly beat the gak out of. Do you believe Primarchs are more frail than Greater Daemons? Could you see a Marine with a chainsword killing one so easily?
Secondly, the Assassin was of the Callidus temple. Carries a C'tan Phase Sword which are said to kill by a scratch. Plus, the official story goes that Curze knew of the assassin all along, and allowed the inflitration and assassination because he was disgusted at what he had become.
Yes, I'm aware, and that's why I always shoot down people using that as some proof of Primarch weakness. There isn't a thing in the setting which can take a C'Tan Phase Sword without being injured. Except a C'tan, I mean.
One last point;
How the hell does Ahriman know what Magnus has inside him? Only the Emperor has any clue what the Primarchs are like inside. Ahriman has no idea, that's nought but his thoughts. He may be right but its his wild guess and nothing more.
Magnus could have been wounded at some point? He could have spoken to the Apothecaries?
I mean, there's a precedence for this. Fabius Bile is intimately aware of Fulgrim's body and its inner workings.
Sooo... ”thousands of tons” of ruble magically stags on Angron’s head then? Do you think this a likely scenario Void_Dragon? Chances are as I said before that Angron got lucky in escaping the trap. Especially considering how much of a bloody ruined mess Angron was in Betrayer after getting buried for the second time.
Yes, I think that Angron throwing thousands of tons of rubble off of his head is far more likely than your baseless speculation because the text actually states as much.
Angron bursting out of the ruins with a force equating an explosion is sing of power, not invulnerability, which is the thing I’m arguing against.
For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Angron hitting the debris with that much force imparts that same force upon his very body. That's what some of you guys need to realize. His body withstood thousands of tons of force (More actually, to be able to send all that debris flying like a bomb).
The duel one is Sanguinius.
Killed by Horus with the full backing of the Chaos Gods.
Well if you believe Curze visions to be accurate, then Dorn is going to get killed by a crazed, sword-wielding mob of chaos marines.
Could be. We'll see.
Vulkan died by getting shot in the head by two shuriken pistols. Do those counts as small arms weapons in 40K?
Nah, it does count as a fairly weak showing for a Primarch though considering Angron was routinely taking Shuriken weapons to the face in The Butcher's Nails and barely noticed.
And as I wrote previously - Mortarion almost died to gunship fire and Guilliman to bolter rounds.
Haven't read either instance. Context?
A gunship though? What kind of gunship? Because I do recall him taking plasma salvos in Horus Heresy: Betrayal, though that may be anecdotal.
I should have worded that differently. “More down to earth” would have been a more fitting description.
All right, fair enough if your wording was accidental.
Why should they be down to earth though? I mean, are Greater Daemons going to be brought down to earth with them?
I will respond in full later on, as I'm quite bust right now, but the major thing that stands out for me is Fulgrim and Fabius vs Magnus and Ahriman.
Fabius knows Fulgrim's biology intimately because he was allowed to personally disect, study (and remake in grotesque forms) both Astartes and Fulgrim himself. He studied it for years to learn the secrets. Ahriman may have taken a glance inside at one point. As he is a psyker looking at a being forged from Warp and a powerful psyker himself, Ahriman is not a reliable source, as he may have been affected and his vision altered.
Secondly, Primarchs recover from 99% of wounds within days at most. That's why it was an even bigger shock when Horus was laid low, that he couldn't heal it. Magnus would never need an Apothecary, between that and his powers.
Void__Dragon wrote: Yes, I think that Angron throwing thousands of tons of rubble off of his head is far more likely than your baseless speculation because the text actually states as much.
I never claimed Angron, or any other Primarch for that matter, to be incapable of such strong feats. I thought I had already made that clear to you.
Void__Dragon wrote: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Angron hitting the debris with that much force imparts that same force upon his very body. That's what some of you guys need to realize. His body withstood thousands of tons of force (More actually, to be able to send all that debris flying like a bomb).
HH is fantasy-setting set in space. You of all people should know better than using science to explain in-universe events in novels about toy soldiers.
Do we know for sure if those thousand tons of ruble all landed on Angron? Surely a large portion of could have been dispersed across the field, instead solely on Angron, right? You and I are both making assumptions here my friend.
Void__Dragon wrote: More actually, to be able to send all that debris flying like a bomb).
Or, you know, he could have used an actual bomb to blow himself free. That could explain why Angron in ‘Betrayer’ didn’t burst out of the ground like a carrot on steroids, but rather he had to dig himself free of the roble.
Also, Angron was visibly a bloody and ruined mess after digging himself free in ‘Betrayer.’ Why do you object so much to me bringing up the possibility that, Angron could just have been plain lucky in escaping unharmed the first time around, especially considering how hurt he was the second time it happened?
A gunship though? What kind of gunship? Because I do recall him taking plasma salvos in Horus Heresy: Betrayal, though that may be anecdotal.
Mortarion was brought low and nearly killed by a Fire Raptor. It shredded him with “explosives high-reactive bolts.” Horus noted how the Fire Raptors were really deadly gunships.
As for Guilliman, he was assaulted in a closed off room by ten space marines, all armed with bolters and combat-blades. Guilliman was unarmed, and if I recall correctly, clad in ceremonial armor, which was pretty useless in terms of protection. He was brought low by bolter shots, though not before killing most of his assailants. The last one had positioned himself behind Guilliman and had his blade on the primarch’s throat. Guilliman would have been dead if it wasn’t because the guy with the blade did a Kor Phaeron.
Void__Dragon wrote: Why should they be down to earth though? I mean, are Greater Daemons going to be brought down to earth with them?
I can’t answer this question other than it ultimately boils down personal preference. Better it would be for you to read the novels ‘Vengeful Spirit’ and ‘Unremembered Empire,’ and then compare them to the previous works yourself.
I can however give you an example of what I like about the new approach with the primarchs, if you would want me to. Maybe that would explain it better?
RileyJessup wrote: Well....Angron is the strongest of the primarchs. except for maybe sanq.
Angron > Sanguinius every day of the week.
Also, the Custodes are like "Astartes +1," so they couldn't kill a primarch in single comabat, but 5 Custodes could kill 20 Astartes. With respect to rank Pre-Heresy, they did have Authority over the Primarchs.
Emps> Custodes > Primarchs > Astartes and the rest of the command chain. I am curious about whether Custodes or Grey Knights are more powerful, or are Grey knights and Custodes the same thing? sans the part about being psykers.
RileyJessup wrote: Well....Angron is the strongest of the primarchs. except for maybe sanq.
Angron > Sanguinius every day of the week.
Depends. Well for a start, Manus and Vulkan are both stated to be the most physically powerful in terms of benching power, and it makes sense since these guys are both metalworkers at home. More Vulkan due to Manus' metal hands and metalshaping powers but still.
Secondly, Sanguinius is suggested to have been of only 2 Primarchs capable of besting Angron 1v1. The other being Horus because Horus. Sangy was a masterful swordsman, a fierce, swift and elegant fighter and have wings and powerful weaponry like the Spear of Telesto.
No way in hell is Angron better than Horus. Even with the Forgeworld rules, Horus tears The Red Angel apart. Horus was the chosen. Chaos follow might, and it took one hell of a warrior to get eight legions behind him. If any of the other primarchs fought the Emperor, they would get raped.
I'm almost tempted to put Sanguinus above Angron, because Horus thought he was the best. But, Angron is the "Undefeated" and has the second best rules combat wise.
Fulgrim speaks for himself. Two primarch kills is no joke. Fulgrim haters will say it was the Laer blade, etc. The dude was a master swordsman.
Russ/Lion is where it gets hard. Both described as great warriors, but aren't at the top of the ladder.
Vulkan is weird because he is immortal, but has no primarch kills or resounding praise.
No way in hell is Angron better than Horus. Even with the Forgeworld rules, Horus tears The Red Angel apart. Horus was the chosen. Chaos follow might, and it took one hell of a warrior to get eight legions behind him. If any of the other primarchs fought the Emperor, they would get raped.
I'm almost tempted to put Sanguinus above Angron, because Horus thought he was the best. But, Angron is the "Undefeated" and has the second best rules combat wise.
Fulgrim speaks for himself. Two primarch kills is no joke. Fulgrim haters will say it was the Laer blade, etc. The dude was a master swordsman.
Russ/Lion is where it gets hard. Both described as great warriors, but aren't at the top of the ladder.
Vulkan is weird because he is immortal, but has no primarch kills or resounding praise.
Um, Fulgrim only killed Ferrus. Gulliman is still alive.
Deadshot wrote: @Void_Dragon, in response to your responses earlier to me.
First off, the reason a bomb couldn't do it and why Bolts could is simple. Not all of the bomb's energy is directed at Angron firstly. Only a part of it is. Most of it would be directed elsewhere in a radius around him.
Depends on how close he was to ground zero, which I'll admit I don't know.
The further away he gets the less damage it will do.
Secondly, the Bolts penetrate and explode inside, so not only is he suffering the effects of the bullet hole but also having his insides take the full force of the shrapnel and explosive force. Presumably his armour has enough protection to dampen enough of the bomb's force to prevent it killing him, along with that superhuman biology to absorb and withstand the explosive *external* force. His organs don't have any protection but their own toughness.
Which is still superhuman, inertia would dictate that his organs would have to be super tough to take building-shattering blows and not be pulped inside of him. It's the same principle as a mace hitting a man in armour, the armour is more or less fine but the person below just had his arm broken.
Supertough does not mean indestructable. Put a bomb in him and he'll blow up because his innards will take the full blast force. Now put a good number of smaller bombs and it'll increase the amount of damaged tissue dramaticslly.
Secondly, the bullet would still kill him if you put twenty or thirty into him. Which is clearly the intention of Russ (hypothetically speaking as it was a demonstration). Put a couple hundred rounds into Angron and he'll die. His armour is solid meaning that each impact weakens its atomic structure. Eventually it'll crack and split open and he'll be filled with rounds and slain.
If a single bullet does no damage, how much damage do you imagine thirty will do? 30 X 0 = 0.
It does not do 0 damage. It does at least 0.0001 damage (the zeroes are infinite). Reason being? Momentum. Momentum of the bullet's atoms must he transfered to the atoms of the target (Angron's armour). The momentum is made up of mass and velocity. As you say bullets travel at a phenomenal velocity vs size. The atoms of the armour in that spot must move, even a tiny fraction of a micro metre as the material is inflexible. This serves to weaken the atom bonds because the atom is now slightly dislodges from its place. Repeat numerous times and weaken the structure further. It will eventually crack and then break open.
Thirdly, Marines die to Titan feet because they do not have the physical strength or skeletal strength to withstand that pressure. Same reason normal humans can't lift cars above their heads. Their muscles will tear and their bones shatter before they can. SM can't push back a Titan because their bones would shatter and muscles rip.
Now we're getting somewhere.
How is withstanding pressure not a showing of durability?
It is, just a different type of durability. If you can a bridge supported by wooden posts, assuming balanced, the wood can hold the weight of the bridge. Put more weight on the bridge and it holds. Put more on like a large car or truck, and the wood *starts* to give. Put a 16 wheeler and it'll begin to bend and crack. Park a tank and it'll snap and collapse.
That is Angron. Angron had the 16 wheeler at the time and was just about holding out.
Now, if assume instead the wood is Marine bones and snaps under the large car (Land Raider), you upgrade the wood to steel (Angron). Which only begins to bend at the tank, but can hold out.
Now if you use an armour piercing warhead on the girders they will be blown up and bridge collapses. Plant a bomb inside the bone and it will shatter as it explodes. Do both to simulate a bolter. It'll both damage the exterior and explode the interior.
Angron's muscles and bones are much more durable as everything ever written about them speaks of how much stronger and faster etc, than a marine they are. Also note that even Angron nearly COULDN'T hold back that Titan for much longer. In the passage, it clearly states (my favourite part of the whole book) that "He (Angron) could feel the bones in his spine and legs begin to splinter and crack..." or something to that effect.
So what you're saying is that because his muscles and bones are so durable he could withstand it? So he's durable enough to do so, and it's a showing of durability?
You'll also note that Angron was already very tired and badly wounded beforehand, being a bloodied mess before he even touched the Titan.
See answer before. And I note as such. Which does nothing to weaken his bone structure, only his will to use his muscles, which survival instinct and adrenaline compensate for. Wounded just means the.metaphorical steel girders were already damaged to begin with and more easily blown apart.
Finally, addressing Lorgar. You know not what his powers could do to him. Why is it not possible for him to buff his physical prowess with his psychic powers? Although game =/= as everyone loves saying, there is the Iron Arm power in the game. The ability to buff exists within the setting, why can't Lorgar use it?
It's possible, but we didn't see him do it. He just used a Kine shield. Lorgar himself doesn't seem to make much use of biomancy like his brother Magnus does (Though Magnus can use all the disciplines) that I can recall.
Just because you don't Pop-Eye eat his spinach doesn't mean he doesn't. Lorgar isn't neccesarily going to go super-saiyen mid-battle with a roar and aura or energy. Or even in battle. If I had such a power and were any way as smart as a Primarch I'd power up before getting into the shower in the morning. Its entirely possible and plausible.
Moving on to the shield...you are trying to calculate an unknown amount of energy being fired from the weapon (A) an unknown amount of energy that penetrated the shield (B) an unknown amount of energy lost between breaking the shield and hitting Lorgar (C)and Lorgar's resistance to that energy damage, also unknown (D) to calculate the actual damage done (E)
So in short and simple terms...
E= A - (B+C+D)
Calculate this for me please?
Valid point, but I know one thing: It did more damage than taking a power fist wielded by Guilliman to his chest. Lol.
I'm not saying Angron is going down in a few rounds. But given that each standard marine bolter carries 30 rounds, and there is likely around 10-20 marines surrounded him, thats about 300-600 rounds, assuming all SW reloaded to a full magazine, which I expect they would.
This relies on a couple assumptions. One is that Angron (Who wasn't badly injured) stands there and doesn't begin ripping into the surrounding Space Wolves. Another is that bolt rounds have even a good chance of hurting Angron, much less killing him (Considering his armour and toughness, and what he's survived, they aren't doing much more than scratch damage).
I'll admit that a bolter can potentially wound a Primarch, even with the high-end showings in Betrayer (And only Betrayer, with other stories it varies as I said), but does it have any good chance to kill? Nah, not really.
The very notion of Primarchs being killed by a small group of Marines in particular becomes ridiculous once one realizes that they are peers and actually quite a bit stronger than most Greater Daemons.
You also assume that Angron wouldn't be pinned in place by such a display of firepower approximately 60 rounds per second minimum. Or that there won't be backup for the Marines.
Responded to throughout post.
And yet Greater Daemons get shot apart by Bolters. Greater Daemons have been slain by lesser characters with plot armour like Gabriel Angelos, and Primarch's have plot armour out their ears because each Primarch is confirmed KIA or not-KIA (Sanguinius, Horus, Ferrus Manus and Roboute Guilliman and all the respectively), which covers missing, traitor, Daemon or possibly and probably dead.
Also, in reference to the Chainsword bit;
The unprotected skin would be shredded on the throat. Its never been even suggested that Primarch's skin is impervious to harm. Only that they are in battle by a combination of sublime skill and speed and strength and their unmatched armour.
No, I'm pretty sure that it's suggested that Primarch flesh is nigh-invulnerable, much like the Greater Daemons they regularly beat the gak out of. Do you believe Primarchs are more frail than Greater Daemons? Could you see a Marine with a chainsword killing one so easily?
Yes. You cut straight back into the throat. Warp-stuff or not, soft tissue is soft tissue. It can only grow so durable and a chainsword not only cuts but also rips it apart. Do you honestly expect Guilliman to just sit there and take it while bolter rounds and chainsword teeth ricochet from hid rippling physique and Superman symbol...wait a second...Ward, is that you?!
Secondly, the Assassin was of the Callidus temple. Carries a C'tan Phase Sword which are said to kill by a scratch. Plus, the official story goes that Curze knew of the assassin all along, and allowed the inflitration and assassination because he was disgusted at what he had become.
Yes, I'm aware, and that's why I always shoot down people using that as some proof of Primarch weakness. There isn't a thing in the setting which can take a C'Tan Phase Sword without being injured. Except a C'tan, I mean.
You have a fair point, we'll call this a right-off.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Quotes are messed up.
No, I'm pretty sure that it's suggested that Primarch flesh is nigh-invulnerable, much like the Greater Daemons they regularly beat the gak out of. Do you believe Primarchs are more frail than Greater Daemons? Could you see a Marine with a chainsword killing one so easily?
Guilliman's throat is torn wide open, with arterial spray frozen in mid-air within the stasis field they keep him in, torrents of it cascading down his breastplate.
They've got Dorn's hands in a box.
Ferrus lost both of his hands.
Fulgrim nailed his... Personal Primarch... to a board.
... Primarch flesh is far, far away from "nigh-invulnerable". Tougher than any human? Yes. Tougher than a regular Space Marine? Yes. Nigh-Invulnerable? Not even close.
No, I'm pretty sure that it's suggested that Primarch flesh is nigh-invulnerable, much like the Greater Daemons they regularly beat the gak out of. Do you believe Primarchs are more frail than Greater Daemons? Could you see a Marine with a chainsword killing one so easily?
Guilliman's throat is torn wide open, with arterial spray frozen in mid-air within the stasis field they keep him in, torrents of it cascading down his breastplate.
They've got Dorn's hands in a box.
Ferrus lost both of his hands.
Fulgrim nailed his... Personal Primarch... to a board.
... Primarch flesh is far, far away from "nigh-invulnerable". Tougher than any human? Yes. Tougher than a regular Space Marine? Yes. Nigh-Invulnerable? Not even close.
Just to reiterate, this is Void_Dragon's opinion. The quotes are messed up.
No, I'm pretty sure that it's suggested that Primarch flesh is nigh-invulnerable, much like the Greater Daemons they regularly beat the gak out of. Do you believe Primarchs are more frail than Greater Daemons? Could you see a Marine with a chainsword killing one so easily?
Guilliman's throat is torn wide open, with arterial spray frozen in mid-air within the stasis field they keep him in, torrents of it cascading down his breastplate.
They've got Dorn's hands in a box.
Ferrus lost both of his hands.
Fulgrim nailed his... Personal Primarch... to a board.
... Primarch flesh is far, far away from "nigh-invulnerable". Tougher than any human? Yes. Tougher than a regular Space Marine? Yes. Nigh-Invulnerable? Not even close.
One of the biggest mistakes I think people make about 40k is calling it science fiction. 40k makes little attempt to justify its logic in any sort of scientific way. Ships travel through hell to get to places using magic users to communicate and on occasion fight. 40k isn't so much Science fiction as it is High fantasy that happens to be set in space.
White Ninja wrote: One of the biggest mistakes I think people make about 40k is calling it science fiction. 40k makes little attempt to justify its logic in any sort of scientific way. Ships travel through hell to get to places using magic users to communicate and on occasion fight. 40k isn't so much Science fiction as it is High fantasy that happens to be set in space.
Oh yeah? When I purchase 40k novels I get then from the science fiction section. Besides, you're bringing up an argument that's already been made earlier in the thread.
Abaddon the armless wrote: I know that somewhere it says that the Adeptus Custodes are more powerful than the Primarchs but hypothetically, if a Daemon Primarch came through that hole in the Golden Throne would the Custodes be able to defeat them or would chaos finally defeat the Emperor?
Adeptus Custodes are not that powerful. A Custode is a very powerful astartes but they cannot single a primarch. In one of the HH novels Horus slays 5 Adeptus Custodes with minimal effort.
Then again, it is Horus. He was all juma juiced up on Chaos energies. Enough so he could kill Sang and wound the Big E
Sounds like he was given a matt ward treatment.
but make no mistake...He didnt just walk away unharmed. He was severally injured
That's the greatest dose of Matt Ward I've ever known.
At least it's not for the GK or Ultrasmurfs
As for the original topic, I'm sure the Custodes could handle it. Wouldn't be easy necessarily but they've been fighting that battle for a while. Chances are they have some sort of plan.
People want primarch's and a world they can identify with. That's why you see the oh but that's not real life that can't happen people.
Never mind what minerals go into making a set of PA or a bolt round. Makes me wonder where everyone's imagination's gone.
The way the wolves are portrayed as SM +1. GK are bout the same. Custodes are GK+1. Probably with a bit more than latent powers. It took 98 GK to take Angron on Armageddon. In the Emperor's gift. If my drunken memory is working.
But id class marine's as unarmoured squadie's and custard's as kitted up sas.
40k is Space Fantasy. There's no Science involved, other than handwavium.
The Custodes are, 1 on 1, better combatants than 99.999% of Space Marines. There are a few (all of them Named Characters) who could best a Custodes in 1 on 1 combat.
The Custodes are, after all, more like duellists and assassins than soldiers, which is why they are not used in the same manner as Space Marines. They lack the unit cohesion and team-work training required to be an effective military unit.
Psienesis wrote: 40k is Space Fantasy. There's no Science involved, other than handwavium.
The Custodes are, 1 on 1, better combatants than 99.999% of Space Marines. There are a few (all of them Named Characters) who could best a Custodes in 1 on 1 combat.
The Custodes are, after all, more like duellists and assassins than soldiers, which is why they are not used in the same manner as Space Marines. They lack the unit cohesion and team-work training required to be an effective military unit.
Prove that it is Science fantasy. Its genre is Scifi, as noted by fictional futuristic technology, aliens and the like, and dictations of the creator.
Abaddon the armless wrote: I know that somewhere it says that the Adeptus Custodes are more powerful than the Primarchs but hypothetically, if a Daemon Primarch came through that hole in the Golden Throne would the Custodes be able to defeat them or would chaos finally defeat the Emperor?
Adeptus Custodes are not that powerful. A Custode is a very powerful astartes but they cannot single a primarch. In one of the HH novels Horus slays 5 Adeptus Custodes with minimal effort.
Then again, it is Horus. He was all juma juiced up on Chaos energies. Enough so he could kill Sang and wound the Big E
Sounds like he was given a matt ward treatment.
but make no mistake...He didnt just walk away unharmed. He was severally injured
That's the greatest dose of Matt Ward I've ever known.
At least it's not for the GK or Ultrasmurfs
As for the original topic, I'm sure the Custodes could handle it. Wouldn't be easy necessarily but they've been fighting that battle for a while. Chances are they have some sort of plan.
Well, Horus wasn't really juiced on anything when he did. That is all I will say, you will have to read the rest
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Psienesis wrote: 40k is Space Fantasy. There's no Science involved, other than handwavium.
The Custodes are, 1 on 1, better combatants than 99.999% of Space Marines. There are a few (all of them Named Characters) who could best a Custodes in 1 on 1 combat.
The Custodes are, after all, more like duellists and assassins than soldiers, which is why they are not used in the same manner as Space Marines. They lack the unit cohesion and team-work training required to be an effective military unit.
Psienesis wrote: 40k is Space Fantasy. There's no Science involved, other than handwavium.
The Custodes are, 1 on 1, better combatants than 99.999% of Space Marines. There are a few (all of them Named Characters) who could best a Custodes in 1 on 1 combat.
The Custodes are, after all, more like duellists and assassins than soldiers, which is why they are not used in the same manner as Space Marines. They lack the unit cohesion and team-work training required to be an effective military unit.
Prove that it is Science fantasy. Its genre is Scifi, as noted by fictional futuristic technology, aliens and the like, and dictations of the creator.
To paraphrase Rod Sterling, science fiction is a setting where the improbable is made possible, science fantasy a setting where the impossible is made probable. In science fiction (and by this I mean "soft" sci-fi, where one does not require a firm grasp of physics and a degree in advanced mathematics in order to grasp fundamental plot points) there are no supernatural or fantastical elements, at least, none that are presented without a plausible scientific explanation. In science fantasy, such things explicitly exist and, in fact, science fantasy explicitly relies on such things to exist.
Psienesis wrote: 40k is Space Fantasy. There's no Science involved, other than handwavium.
The Custodes are, 1 on 1, better combatants than 99.999% of Space Marines. There are a few (all of them Named Characters) who could best a Custodes in 1 on 1 combat.
The Custodes are, after all, more like duellists and assassins than soldiers, which is why they are not used in the same manner as Space Marines. They lack the unit cohesion and team-work training required to be an effective military unit.
Prove that it is Science fantasy. Its genre is Scifi, as noted by fictional futuristic technology, aliens and the like, and dictations of the creator.
To paraphrase Rod Sterling, science fiction is a setting where the improbable is made possible, science fantasy a setting where the impossible is made probable. In science fiction (and by this I mean "soft" sci-fi, where one does not require a firm grasp of physics and a degree in advanced mathematics in order to grasp fundamental plot points) there are no supernatural or fantastical elements, at least, none that are presented without a plausible scientific explanation. In science fantasy, such things explicitly exist and, in fact, science fantasy explicitly relies on such things to exist.
Remember that the universe of 40k is only a viewpoint from human perspective. Daemons is a relative term. Just because they are medieval style Daemons doesn't mean they are literal biblical style servants of Satan. And the Warp is equated to Hell simply because mankind has no other way to describe it. At the end of the day they are simply another dimension and its inhabitants. There are things LIKE magic and supernatural but none actually are. Psykers are genetic mutants, that much is fact. Eldar, Orks, Necrons are just another form of alien. No different that ET or Xenomorphs or Predators. Everything is simply coated in a layer of superstition and belief and backwards thinking.
And for the record, nothing is impossible, just highly improbable. You cannot say for certain that none of the things in 40k are possible 38000 years from now. There is no way.
But it also has sorcerers and blood-magics and all of that sort of thing, covens of chanting witches and eight-foot-tall, three-quarter ton men walking through mud as if it were no problem (which violates physics). And, yes, there are many things that are impossible, of which 40K is filled with.
Psienesis wrote: But it also has sorcerers and blood-magics and all of that sort of thing, covens of chanting witches and eight-foot-tall, three-quarter ton men walking through mud as if it were no problem (which violates physics). And, yes, there are many things that are impossible, of which 40K is filled with.
Sorcerers are Psykers. They just use fancy symbols when doinf their psychic stuff. Blood magic? Psykers. Everything "magic" in 40k is genetic mutation overlaid with superstition.
You have no idea what physics govern what planets and what material the mud is made from, the muscle and servo power of the armour and marine combined. It is entirely possible that they are strong enough that the sucking mud simply doesn't have enough strength to hold them done.
No, there isn't. Nothing is impossible. Nothing, period. Especially not so far into the future you have no clue what developments are about. Nor do you have a clue what planet has what effects applied to it due to mass, position, moons, the star it orbits, mechanical functions on the planet.
Deadshot wrote: It is entirely possible that they are strong enough that the sucking mud simply doesn't have enough strength to hold them done.
I have some bad news for you...
No, you don't. These are 8ft tall supersoldiers who have armour that greatly enhances their strength. On planets within unknown laws of physics affecting them and unknown materials.
Deadshot wrote: It is entirely possible that they are strong enough that the sucking mud simply doesn't have enough strength to hold them done.
I have some bad news for you...
No, you don't. These are 8ft tall supersoldiers who have armour that greatly enhances their strength. On planets within unknown laws of physics affecting them and unknown materials.
You are aware that your strength does not actually matter when your feet are stuck in mud, right?
It just gets the foot you are pushing with further down just as fast if not faster than you are pulling the other foot up.
You know how force works? When an object lies on the ground, then there are two forces affecting it; the gravity, and the <whatever it is called in English> that is equally powerful and pushes up.
When a Marine pushes down his foot to drag his other foot up, then the icky, sticky muddy marsh waters cause the pushing foot to sink down just as much as the foot he is trying to free is pulled up.
Naturally this does not happen since Marines have bootsoles of space-magic handwavium but it's physics for ya.
Psienesis wrote: But it also has sorcerers and blood-magics and all of that sort of thing, covens of chanting witches and eight-foot-tall, three-quarter ton men walking through mud as if it were no problem (which violates physics). And, yes, there are many things that are impossible, of which 40K is filled with.
Sorcerers are Psykers. They just use fancy symbols when doinf their psychic stuff. Blood magic? Psykers. Everything "magic" in 40k is genetic mutation overlaid with superstition.
You have no idea what physics govern what planets and what material the mud is made from, the muscle and servo power of the armour and marine combined. It is entirely possible that they are strong enough that the sucking mud simply doesn't have enough strength to hold them done.
No, there isn't. Nothing is impossible. Nothing, period. Especially not so far into the future you have no clue what developments are about. Nor do you have a clue what planet has what effects applied to it due to mass, position, moons, the star it orbits, mechanical functions on the planet.
No, they are not. Sorcerers are specifically *not* psykers. Sorcery permits the non-psychic mind to create effects that a psyker would otherwise be required for. Many Sorcerers are *also* psykers, as the study of the latter (especially of the proscribed kind) also lends itself to the study of the former (even the knowledge of which is Heresy).
Automatically Appended Next Post: And this ignores the fact that there is a specific being who is the God of Magic.
No, they are not. Sorcerers are specifically *not* psykers. Sorcery permits the non-psychic mind to create effects that a psyker would otherwise be required for. Many Sorcerers are *also* psykers, as the study of the latter (especially of the proscribed kind) also lends itself to the study of the former (even the knowledge of which is Heresy).
Really? I've never gotten such an impression. Sorcerer is just an alternative name for a psyker, possibly to one who specialises to psychic arts dealing with daemons.
No, they are not. Sorcerers are specifically *not* psykers. Sorcery permits the non-psychic mind to create effects that a psyker would otherwise be required for. Many Sorcerers are *also* psykers, as the study of the latter (especially of the proscribed kind) also lends itself to the study of the former (even the knowledge of which is Heresy).
Really? I've never gotten such an impression. Sorcerer is just an alternative name for a psyker, possibly to one who specialises to psychic arts dealing with daemons.
Really. Any idiot who can read can pick up a grimoire and learn the Black Arts. Only those with an active Psyker gene can develop their talents into being a Psyker. One can also be both, a trained Psyker and a student of the Black Arts, such as the Grey Knights, or the Thousand Sons.
You have no idea what physics govern what planets and what material the mud is made from
And this makes it science-fantasy, because what you're canting about here is the science of "handwavium". The setting assumes Earth-like analogies on most worlds. Even the worlds with toxic atmospheres are, more often than not, that way due to human industry, not because the planet has a cyanide atmosphere.
Really. Any idiot who can read can pick up a grimoire and learn the Black Arts. Only those with an active Psyker gene can develop their talents into being a Psyker. One can also be both, a trained Psyker and a student of the Black Arts, such as the Grey Knights, or the Thousand Sons.
Easiest to acquire would be FFG's "Disciples of the Dark Gods" and "The Radical's Handbook" that detail the rules for Sorcery. While I don't generally like to use FFG's stuff as references, it's simply the easiest and most-readily-available reference.
Also would be the second and third Ravenor novels, where there's a daemonhost with some non-Psychic allies who are using the language "Enuncia" (this, itself, is a reference to "Enochian", an occult language of the real world that is, supposedly, the language of Angels) to blow things up and make people (and daemons) die by shouting at them.
There was Fus Ro Dah in 40k before there ever was a Skyrim.
In the 3rd Ravenor book, when the whole situation with Slyte is going down, the wealthy merchant who's been orchestrating the whole thing has at his disposal a wide array of sorcerous artifacts, some described of his own creation, but because he is not a psyker, he has not registered to Ravenor's psychic "sensor sweeps" for such things, despite having been in the Inquisitor's presence a few times during the series.
Yeah, I'm not convinced. FFG thinks that SoB use space magic, so I do not trust them on fluff (and it is a licensed product and not by GW proper anyway.) And as with every bizarre fluff interpretation, there always will be some BL book that supports it. Abnett's stuff has numerous other fluff conflicts with studio fluff, anyway. In the studio fluff sorcery has always been based on psychic powers, and I'll stick by that.
Psienesis wrote: Easiest to acquire would be FFG's "Disciples of the Dark Gods" and "The Radical's Handbook" that detail the rules for Sorcery. While I don't generally like to use FFG's stuff as references, it's simply the easiest and most-readily-available reference.
Also would be the second and third Ravenor novels, where there's a daemonhost with some non-Psychic allies who are using the language "Enuncia" (this, itself, is a reference to "Enochian", an occult language of the real world that is, supposedly, the language of Angels) to blow things up and make people (and daemons) die by shouting at them.
There was Fus Ro Dah in 40k before there ever was a Skyrim.
In the 3rd Ravenor book, when the whole situation with Slyte is going down, the wealthy merchant who's been orchestrating the whole thing has at his disposal a wide array of sorcerous artifacts, some described of his own creation, but because he is not a psyker, he has not registered to Ravenor's psychic "sensor sweeps" for such things, despite having been in the Inquisitor's presence a few times during the series.
No, they are not. Sorcerers are specifically *not* psykers. Sorcery permits the non-psychic mind to create effects that a psyker would otherwise be required for. Many Sorcerers are *also* psykers, as the study of the latter (especially of the proscribed kind) also lends itself to the study of the former (even the knowledge of which is Heresy).
Really? I've never gotten such an impression. Sorcerer is just an alternative name for a psyker, possibly to one who specialises to psychic arts dealing with daemons.
Psychic powers dealing with daemons is actually daemonology. Chaos Sorcerers are literally just Chaotic librarians, and they are most definitely psykers.
No, they are not. Sorcerers are specifically *not* psykers. Sorcery permits the non-psychic mind to create effects that a psyker would otherwise be required for. Many Sorcerers are *also* psykers, as the study of the latter (especially of the proscribed kind) also lends itself to the study of the former (even the knowledge of which is Heresy).
Really? I've never gotten such an impression. Sorcerer is just an alternative name for a psyker, possibly to one who specialises to psychic arts dealing with daemons.
Psychic powers dealing with daemons is actually daemonology. Chaos Sorcerers are literally just Chaotic librarians, and they are most definitely psykers.
Read Gav Thorpe's blog on the fallacy of canon in 40k and realize that it doesn't matter what you think.
No, they are not. Sorcerers are specifically *not* psykers. Sorcery permits the non-psychic mind to create effects that a psyker would otherwise be required for. Many Sorcerers are *also* psykers, as the study of the latter (especially of the proscribed kind) also lends itself to the study of the former (even the knowledge of which is Heresy).
Really? I've never gotten such an impression. Sorcerer is just an alternative name for a psyker, possibly to one who specialises to psychic arts dealing with daemons.
Psychic powers dealing with daemons is actually daemonology. Chaos Sorcerers are literally just Chaotic librarians, and they are most definitely psykers.
Read Gav Thorpe's blog on the fallacy of canon in 40k and realize that it doesn't matter what you think.
Another way to say it would be that 'You have proven that all Chaos Space Marine Sorcerers are psykers. Now please provide evidence that this goes for all sorcerers, including the ones that are not Chaos Space Marines.'
'It's common sense lol' does not count as evidence, just in case.
Another way to say it would be that 'You have proven that all Chaos Space Marine Sorcerers are psykers. Now please provide evidence that this goes for all sorcerers.'
you are soooo difficult, believe what you want, I'm done arguing with you.
Psienesis wrote: Easiest to acquire would be FFG's "Disciples of the Dark Gods" and "The Radical's Handbook" that detail the rules for Sorcery. While I don't generally like to use FFG's stuff as references, it's simply the easiest and most-readily-available reference.
Also would be the second and third Ravenor novels, where there's a daemonhost with some non-Psychic allies who are using the language "Enuncia" (this, itself, is a reference to "Enochian", an occult language of the real world that is, supposedly, the language of Angels) to blow things up and make people (and daemons) die by shouting at them.
There was Fus Ro Dah in 40k before there ever was a Skyrim.
In the 3rd Ravenor book, when the whole situation with Slyte is going down, the wealthy merchant who's been orchestrating the whole thing has at his disposal a wide array of sorcerous artifacts, some described of his own creation, but because he is not a psyker, he has not registered to Ravenor's psychic "sensor sweeps" for such things, despite having been in the Inquisitor's presence a few times during the series.
Here you go. Ravenor and FFG, all of which are canon.
Psienesis wrote: Easiest to acquire would be FFG's "Disciples of the Dark Gods" and "The Radical's Handbook" that detail the rules for Sorcery. While I don't generally like to use FFG's stuff as references, it's simply the easiest and most-readily-available reference.
Also would be the second and third Ravenor novels, where there's a daemonhost with some non-Psychic allies who are using the language "Enuncia" (this, itself, is a reference to "Enochian", an occult language of the real world that is, supposedly, the language of Angels) to blow things up and make people (and daemons) die by shouting at them.
There was Fus Ro Dah in 40k before there ever was a Skyrim.
In the 3rd Ravenor book, when the whole situation with Slyte is going down, the wealthy merchant who's been orchestrating the whole thing has at his disposal a wide array of sorcerous artifacts, some described of his own creation, but because he is not a psyker, he has not registered to Ravenor's psychic "sensor sweeps" for such things, despite having been in the Inquisitor's presence a few times during the series.
Here you go. Ravenor and FFG, all of which are canon.
No, don't just tell me the sites, post a link providing the information you claim.
Ashiraya wrote: You know, if you have no evidence, acknowledging it instead of insulting the opposition will not make you look worse.
I am 'difficult'? Well, sorry for asking for evidence, then. I guess.
Yeah, says a person who actually posted a thread in off-topic instructing how to discretely post aggresive responses to people.
It was a joke thread. It was a thread that would work on my realm forum. Yes, it did not work on Dakka and I recognise that, but it was not designed with malicious intent, and it is unrelated to my posts on this topic.
I have had to repeat this twice now and I still do not see how it discredits my posts in this thread.
Psienesis wrote: Since there is no online version of the Ravenor books cited, that's not possible. At least, not within the permissions of Dakka's forum rules.
As with anything else, however, there's the info. If you're not willing to go check it out, then that's your problem.
Ashiraya wrote: You know, if you have no evidence, acknowledging it instead of insulting the opposition will not make you look worse.
I am 'difficult'? Well, sorry for asking for evidence, then. I guess.
Yeah, says a person who actually posted a thread in off-topic instructing how to discretely post aggresive responses to people.
It was a joke thread. It was a thread that would work on my realm forum. Yes, it did not work on Dakka and I recognise that, but it was not designed with malicious intent, and it is unrelated to my posts on this topic.
I have had to repeat this twice now and I still do not see how it discredits my posts in this thread.
Yeah, whatever you say.
I won't believe a word you say until you provide a link detailing your argument.
Here is the link. Feel free to go check the books out.
Implying that because you can't find the text anywhere (Which would break copyright laws for that matter) on the internet it is discredited as an argument really is grasping for straws.
In case anyone is unaware, you are in the 40k background thread which is dedicated to serious 40k fluff discussion, not personal beliefs and headcannon. If you can't back up your argument than I am not obliged to agree.
Here is the link. Feel free to go check the books out.
Implying that because you can't find the text anywhere (Which would break copyright laws for that matter) on the internet it is discredited as an argument really is grasping for straws.
Mhm, again, very unreliable.
Automatically Appended Next Post: No hard feelings though.
In case anyone is unaware, you are in the 40k background thread which is dedicated to serious 40k fluff discussion, not personal beliefs and headcannon. If you can't back up your argument than I am not obliged to agree.
In case you weren't aware, all40K canon is headcanon. I provided you with a link from Gav Thorpe that explains that in detail.
In case anyone is unaware, you are in the 40k background thread which is dedicated to serious 40k fluff discussion, not personal beliefs and headcannon. If you can't back up your argument than I am not obliged to agree.
In case you weren't aware, all40K canon is headcanon. I provided you with a link from Gav Thorpe that explains that in detail.
That means all the time we have sat here debating has been a vain waste of time. Thank you very much.
Well, Im at work, so I get paid either way, so it's not really a waste of my time, I would not otherwise be doing anything productive.
But, otherwise, yes. Basically, for any of the finer points of 40K fluff, almost any concept or belief has support somewhere for its existence. *Most* people have a "order of canonicity" that they use, with GW-published works (like Codices) overriding BL novels which override 3rd party products (like FFG)... but that is simply personal preference.
Psienesis wrote: Well, Im at work, so I get paid either way, so it's not really a waste of my time, I would not otherwise be doing anything productive.
But, otherwise, yes. Basically, for any of the finer points of 40K fluff, almost any concept or belief has support somewhere for its existence. *Most* people have a "order of canonicity" that they use, with GW-published works (like Codices) overriding BL novels which override 3rd party products (like FFG)... but that is simply personal preference.
Whatever then, go by your own preference and I'll go by mine.
Given that we have two major HH characters currently using sorcery without having any obvious psychic potential, those two being Erebus and Kor Phaeron. I think is pretty safe to conclude that being a psyker is not a requirement for using sorcery. As Psienesis previously stated, psychics and sorcery are two separate ways of preforming space magic in 40K.
Redcruisair wrote: Given that we have two major HH characters currently using sorcery without having any obvious psychic potential, those two being Erebus and Kor Phaeron. I think is pretty safe to conclude that being a psyker is not a requirement for using sorcery. As Psienesis previously stated, psychics and sorcery are two separate ways of preforming space magic in 40K.
I had no idea those two were sorcerers.....clarify?
Redcruisair wrote: Given that we have two major HH characters currently using sorcery without having any obvious psychic potential, those two being Erebus and Kor Phaeron. I think is pretty safe to conclude that being a psyker is not a requirement for using sorcery. As Psienesis previously stated, psychics and sorcery are two separate ways of preforming space magic in 40K.
The Chaos Gods gave them gifts and powers. They do it all the time.
Redcruisair wrote: Given that we have two major HH characters currently using sorcery without having any obvious psychic potential, those two being Erebus and Kor Phaeron. I think is pretty safe to conclude that being a psyker is not a requirement for using sorcery. As Psienesis previously stated, psychics and sorcery are two separate ways of preforming space magic in 40K.
I had no idea those two were sorcerers.....clarify?
Erebus was the first chaplain of the Word Bearers legion. Kor Phaeron was first captain of the Word Bearers legion. Each of them possessed a copy of the Book of Lorgar, a book used for occult rituals and sorcery.
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Deadshot wrote: The Chaos Gods gave them gifts and powers. They do it all the time.
I haven’t read anything about the chaos gods bestowing them with psychic potential.
I know psychic powers can be achieved through a myriad of ways, but I doubt that is the case with Erebus and Phaeron. We know they perform their sorcery through the use of the Book of Lorgar.
Redcruisair wrote: Given that we have two major HH characters currently using sorcery without having any obvious psychic potential, those two being Erebus and Kor Phaeron. I think is pretty safe to conclude that being a psyker is not a requirement for using sorcery. As Psienesis previously stated, psychics and sorcery are two separate ways of preforming space magic in 40K.
I had no idea those two were sorcerers.....clarify?
Erebus was the first chaplain of the Word Bearers legion. Kor Phaeron was first captain of the Word Bearers legion. Each of them possessed a copy of the Book of Lorgar, a book used for occult rituals and sorcery.
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Deadshot wrote: The Chaos Gods gave them gifts and powers. They do it all the time.
I haven’t read anything about the chaos gods bestowing them with psychic potential.
I know psychic powers can be achieved through a myriad of ways, but I doubt that is the case with Erebus and Phaeron. We know they perform their sorcery through the use of the Book of Lorgar.
A book written by an extremely powerful psyker who is also the foremost professor of Chaos? And its not easy for him to imbue the text with psychic energy so any old chump can make it work with faith?
Deadshot wrote: A book written by an extremely powerful psyker.
This is irrelevant.
Deadshot wrote: who is also the foremost professor of Chaos?
This is important. The Book of Lorgar is about the occult, rituals and the Primordial Truth. It’s a bible for the chaos worshipper.
Deadshot wrote: And its not easy for him to imbue the text with psychic energy so any old chump can make it work with faith?
Many thousands of copies of the Book of Lorgar where made. Did Lorgar imbue all thousands of them with his psychic powers? Can he even imbue items with his psychic power? Nothing in HH series support your theory I’m afraid.
Besides, Lorgar first made use of his psychic powers on Isstvan V when Corax was slaughtering his Gal Vorbak. At that point the Book of Lorgar was already completed.
Besides, Lorgar first made use of his psychic powers on Isstvan V when Corax was slaughtering his Gal Vorbak.
Not true, that was when he mastered his use of them. Even before that he was still a psyker. He himself was able to telepathically alter and devour the astropathic messages sent by the Custodians' Astropath.
It's also worth noting that, when Lorgar left, it fell to Xaphen(sp?) to use sorcery and rituals to do the same thing. Xaphen wasn't a sorcerer.
A book written by an extremely powerful psyker who is also the foremost professor of Chaos? And its not easy for him to imbue the text with psychic energy so any old chump can make it work with faith?
That would be the very definition of Sorcery, as far as 40K is concerned. Manipulation of the Warp and the production of quantifiable effects via the Immaterium, by the actions of a non-psyker actor. It doesn't matter that Lorgar is a psyker, if anyone with the will can pick up a copy of his book at the local occult and heresy shop, chant some words and summon a Bloodletter.
Automatically Appended Next Post: More importantly, psychic abilities are not spells. There's no chanting or hand-waving or material components required. The psyker just thinks about doing a thing, and they do it (assuming that thing is something the Psyker has talents in, like telepathy or telekinesis or divination or whatever). You don't study the words of ancient books in candle-lit towers over storm-tossed oceans to "learn" how to be a psyker, it's a genetic trait that you either have or you don't.
ing idiot and didn't know that his bolter marines couldn't even scratch their target's paint, or that primarch durability is based primarily on myths and character shields and they can be killed by a hail of bolter fire.
you are soooo difficult, believe what you want, I'm done arguing with you.