I played five games with GK using the new codex and adhered to only taking units from the codex. I thought I'd share what I learned over those five games against different lists and trying new stuff myself. FWIW, I played against DA, Eldar (x2), SM and CSM.
1. Grey Knights dominate the psychic phase like no other army in 40k Yes, this a case where your mileage may vary, but I ran double CAD in all five games. The core of the army was 20 purifiers in combat squads and two ML3 librarians at 1,750 and 2,000 pts. I routinely had over 20 dice before the roll and could cast and deny at will. I denied three attempts to cast Invisibility by two different armies, purely by virtue of weight of dice. Yes, 6's aren't perfect but throwing 15+ dice to deny paired with re-rolling 1s made it semi-reliable.
2. Unsurprisingly, purifiers are the star of the book They're so ridiculously good it's silly. I can never advocate or justify taking strike squads over them given the paltry point difference. Having multiple squads spread across the board really stunts your opponent's ability to move around the board. Not by impeding them, but through the impending threat of getting hit with cleansing flame. It's a huge deterrent and forcing mass saves will whittle a squad down quickly, regardless of their save.
3. 2+ armor is a problem The lack of low AP weaponry is huge. Terminators and centurions will be a huge problem for GK outside of the assault phase and hammers. Forcing saves is unreliable for good armor and it's here where things break down. Rather than trying to take lascannons on land raiders and dreads to kill them my recommendation is ignore them all together. Focus on the softer targets and wheel back around at the end of the game. It's not worth sinking too many points into the few low AP options in the book, they just don't earn their points back.
4. Forget the warding staff on libbies Note that the rule on giving AW applies to the SQUAD, not just the person wielding it. Stick one on a termie or paladin and give that libby a hammer. It's a cheap way to get a good WS a hammer and if you've gotten off sanctuary or invis you'll win a challenge.
5. The detachment rules are stellar On paper arriving on a 3+ via DS is good, in practice it's great. It really allows you to clog the backfield and get early pressure. I found that using one DS unit as a sacrifical lamb was extremely effective. Let a small unit of paladins soak up the fire so you can put yourself in position for turn two assaults. You're really playing an assault army now, not a mid-range shooting one as they were with psybolt. Embrace that and play into its strength.
6. Anything but ML3 librarians are lackluster for an HQ choice. Crowe can situationally give you something, but he's way too expensive. GM's are meh compared to a libby with a hammer and the relics play into a librarian's role on the tabletop. I could easily see running three or four in a double cad.
7. Draigo is everything you want him to be Before playing I thought he'd be something to take in 2k games only, but in practice it's hard to ignore him. Low points games wont favor him, but if you're running librarians you've saving enough points to justify him. Guaranteeing gate gives you one hell of a deathstar unit. I ran him, a ML3 librarian and 5 paladins. Yes it's expensive, but the unit earned its points back in all 5 games. Invis and sanctuary with Draigo in front tanking shots makes the unit damn-near unkillable, in CC he killed everything that challenged him. He ate the Avatar of Khaine, Karandras, Iron Hands company master and a demon prince. He's a monster.
8. Dreads are dead You probably knew this before reading, but they're just not good. Not for the points of a dreadknight. Psyfleman were a staple of the old dex, but they're gone now. Not effective, never earned points back in any game.
9. Justicars are a hidden gem Throwing melta bombs on a few of them gives you surprisingly effective AA if you can get off a turn two charge, while locator beacons allow for some nice shenanigans with gate. Draigo's deathstar will go right where you want them, and more importantly allow you to position them properly.
Anyone else have any thoughts after playing? Personally, they still need allies to be really great but they have a place.
Played 3 games against GKs this weekend (as Space Marines). You're right about Cleansing Flame being very dangerous - it's rough getting hit bit it multiple times per turn.
Draigo's access to Gate of Infinity by default is super obnoxious to play against - he can basically teleport at will to wherever on the board he's needed the most (at the cost of losing a turn where he can't assault, but that's not a big downside if he would otherwise be standing around awkwardly). Also, with AP2 on Titansword now, he can effectively engage everything.
The new HQ librarians are very good - Terminator armor and level 3 mastery at 135 points! A good build for him seems to be to take the Primaris Power from Divination, then take 3 powers from Sanctic using the Domina Liber Daemonica (you can get Gate of Infinity half the time this way).
Strike Squads seem okay to me. They have fairly good firepower out to 24", and are quite strong in close combat.
The huge point hike to Dreadnoughts is bizarre, I can't imagine what the justification is for that. They cost 30 points more than the Space Wolf Dreadnoughts, and the only extra thing they get is the ability to cast one very mediocre power.
The Stormraven is now has Stormstrike Missiles, which is a major buff (the old missiles were terrible).
The Nemesis Strike Force can be sort of hard to play against. My opponent put his entire army into deep strike, and got lucky with the reserve and deep strike scatter rolls - all but a single unit of his army landed in my deployment zone on turn 1. I got one turn of shooting, and then spent the rest of the game getting killed in close combat. Not super psyched about that.
The whole codex seems very "Vanilla Knights". All the vehicles and most of the equipment got standardized to Regular Space Marine Stats. A lot of the weird equipment is gone.
One last thing: the lack of AP2 weapons was a severe problem for them last edition, and it remains a severe problem. The first game we played, I brought 15 terminators, Honor Guard, and Beatstick HQ's with artificer armor - I was able to nearly table him with minimal losses. There's just not a lot Grey Knights can do against 2+ armor (aside from Daemonhammers, but they're not very cost effective)
I wish Ghazzy was at least close to the awesomeness named Draigo rulewise. I guess the more mary-sueish your fluff is - the stronger you are on tabletop
Auswin wrote: 9. Justicars are a hidden gem Throwing melta bombs on a few of them gives you surprisingly effective AA if you can get off a turn two charge, while locator beacons allow for some nice shenanigans with gate. Draigo's deathstar will go right where you want them, and more importantly allow you to position them properly.
I hope you didn't do that?
Because Justicars don't have a Locator Beacon, they have a Teleport Homer.
Teleport Homers only work when you come from Reserves.
Auswin wrote: 9. Justicars are a hidden gem Throwing melta bombs on a few of them gives you surprisingly effective AA if you can get off a turn two charge, while locator beacons allow for some nice shenanigans with gate. Draigo's deathstar will go right where you want them, and more importantly allow you to position them properly.
I hope you didn't do that?
Because Justicars don't have a Locator Beacon, they have a Teleport Homer.
Teleport Homers only work when you come from Reserves.
I'd say take one inquisitor as ally, his grenade will further buff draigostar, and with 3 servo skulls you have more choices of teleporting all around
2. Unsurprisingly, purifiers are the star of the book
They're so ridiculously good it's silly. I can never advocate or justify taking strike squads over them given the paltry point difference. Having multiple squads spread across the board really stunts your opponent's ability to move around the board. Not by impeding them, but through the impending threat of getting hit with cleansing flame. It's a huge deterrent and forcing mass saves will whittle a squad down quickly, regardless of their save.
How do you use them?
''Spread across the board'' would mean on foot.
With psycannons?
I'm not 100% sure your assessment that all HQs except for libbies are good.
Stern getting sanctuary as a base spell can be pretty huge for any imperials who wish to ally him in for TH/SS termies. Thank god GKs can't take bikes, because I fear what sanctuary might do for thunderwolf cav as well...
Come to think of it, SW/GK combo's can be pretty sick with droppod purifiers coupled with 2++ terminator through Stern
2. Unsurprisingly, purifiers are the star of the book
They're so ridiculously good it's silly. I can never advocate or justify taking strike squads over them given the paltry point difference. Having multiple squads spread across the board really stunts your opponent's ability to move around the board. Not by impeding them, but through the impending threat of getting hit with cleansing flame. It's a huge deterrent and forcing mass saves will whittle a squad down quickly, regardless of their save.
How do you use them?
''Spread across the board'' would mean on foot.
With psycannons?
I'm wondering this myself. Personally I'd put them all in Rhinos for the same effect but with more mobility and resilience.
2. Unsurprisingly, purifiers are the star of the book
They're so ridiculously good it's silly. I can never advocate or justify taking strike squads over them given the paltry point difference. Having multiple squads spread across the board really stunts your opponent's ability to move around the board. Not by impeding them, but through the impending threat of getting hit with cleansing flame. It's a huge deterrent and forcing mass saves will whittle a squad down quickly, regardless of their save.
How do you use them?
''Spread across the board'' would mean on foot.
With psycannons?
In one game (vs. Eldar) I had three 10 man purifier squads combat squadded in rhinos with 5 walking behind it and using it as mobile cover. The teminator drop in his back lines had to be addressed so he couldn't be concerned with the purififers who quickly advanced, jumped out and covered a big section of the board in possible novas. Imagine how the Olympic rings work, that's what I did.
A NDK and DS termies were huge target priorities that allowed them to get into position. By the time he took out the NDK it was turn three and two squads were hit with cleansing flame three times for a total of 28 and 25 hits respectively.
Auswin wrote: 9. Justicars are a hidden gem Throwing melta bombs on a few of them gives you surprisingly effective AA if you can get off a turn two charge, while locator beacons allow for some nice shenanigans with gate. Draigo's deathstar will go right where you want them, and more importantly allow you to position them properly.
I hope you didn't do that?
Because Justicars don't have a Locator Beacon, they have a Teleport Homer.
Teleport Homers only work when you come from Reserves.
Yes, I did. My I meant teleport homers. However, is there a reason it wouldn't work? I mean, the rules for gate say you remove them from the table and immediately place them "as if arriving from deep strike reserve"
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Vash108 wrote: How do you feel using them as allied detachments?
Hoo boy. So many crazy options. Right now the wildest I can think of is a 5 man purgation squad with incinerators coming down in a SW drop pod.
Thanks for sharing your experience; lots of useful points.
I've played one game of new GK vs Ultramarines, and I got pasted by THSS termies. I rolled terribly and my opponent simply would not fail any of his saves, despite my attempts to wear them down with weight of fire, but he still won fair and square. So your point about AP2 is very relevant to me!
1. Grey Knights dominate the psychic phase like no other army in 40k Yes, this a case where your mileage may vary, but I ran double CAD in all five games. The core of the army was 20 purifiers in combat squads and two ML3 librarians at 1,750 and 2,000 pts. I routinely had over 20 dice before the roll and could cast and deny at will. I denied three attempts to cast Invisibility by two different armies, purely by virtue of weight of dice. Yes, 6's aren't perfect but throwing 15+ dice to deny paired with re-rolling 1s made it semi-reliable.
The aegis only let's you re-roll 1s to DtW if the unit with that special rule is the target - you don't get that bonus against invisibility.
9. Justicars are a hidden gem Throwing melta bombs on a few of them gives you surprisingly effective AA if you can get off a turn two charge, while locator beacons allow for some nice shenanigans with gate. Draigo's deathstar will go right where you want them, and more importantly allow you to position them properly.
As some one already said; the teleport homer is the special issue war gear option, and it only works for units arriving from DS reserve. Gate of infinity says the unit "immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for deepstrike", nothing about counting as having arrived from DS reserve.
Re-read the Aegis rule again, it just says "deny the witch tests", doesn't say they have to be against the unit.
I don't think the Libby is a mando take, if you try to run a draigo star Stern's guaranteed Sanctuary is a must-have in my opinion. Otherwise I generally agree.
AP2 is a severe issue for GKs. Sure, we can throw more hammers onto our Terminators, but we don't get the nice 3++ that other termies get along with it. The game I played yesterday, I ended up losing 25 Terminators to Lysander and a squad of 8 hammernators (it was 10, but I killed two with my overwatch, and only killed two more after that in the two turns of assaults). I tend to go with 1 hammer for every 5 GK termies, and halberds for the rest, so I may want to consider adding in some more hammers now.
I still like halberds, and I think they're a good insurance policy, as you're never guaranteed to successfully cast Hammerhand.
greyknight12 wrote: Re-read the Aegis rule again, it just says "deny the witch tests", doesn't say they have to be against the unit.
The Aegis rule is assigned on a per unit basis, and listed under the Special Rules section of each unit's entry. Some units don't have it; Land Raiders for example. The Army Special Rules paragraph in the appendix of the codex also makes this clear shortly before the Aegis special rule is explained. Clearly this is not an army-wide special rule.
Additionally, the BRB rules about DtW make it clear that if one of your units was not the target of the psychic power in question (as is the case with a blessing like Invisibility), "you can still attempt to Deny the Witch. To do so, follow the same process, but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls - you will require rolls of 6 to nullify Warp Charge points".
If the Aegis applied to all your Deny the Witch rolls, regardless of the target of the psychic power, then equally a single unit with the Brotherhood of Psykers in your army could confer their modifier to all your DtW rolls too. Or you could ally in a single GK unit with the Aegis to give your entire non-GK army a nice little bonus.
greyknight12 wrote: Re-read the Aegis rule again, it just says "deny the witch tests", doesn't say they have to be against the unit.
The Aegis rule is assigned on a per unit basis, and listed under the Special Rules section of each unit's entry. Some units don't have it; Land Raiders for example. The Army Special Rules paragraph in the appendix of the codex also makes this clear shortly before the Aegis special rule is explained. Clearly this is not an army-wide special rule.
Additionally, the BRB rules about DtW make it clear that if one of your units was not the target of the psychic power in question (as is the case with a blessing like Invisibility), "you can still attempt to Deny the Witch. To do so, follow the same process, but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls - you will require rolls of 6 to nullify Warp Charge points".
If the Aegis applied to all your Deny the Witch rolls, regardless of the target of the psychic power, then equally a single unit with the Brotherhood of Psykers in your army could confer their modifier to all your DtW rolls too. Or you could ally in a single GK unit with the Aegis to give your entire non-GK army a nice little bonus.
A reroll is not a modifier, it doesnt change the number required to succeed.
I am new at this game, and a few nights ago I played against my friend's Tau army using 7e rules for the first time.
Point wise I lost 7-2. He had both points, slay the warlord, and behind lines. But combat wise he very easily could have lost. I failed two separate charges to his commander (double 1's) and my terminators got wrecked, paladins eventually made it. I also got a very very unlucky triple one with my librarian, so he failed his +, ++, and FNP. This all happened in turn two.
By turn 7 I was not only still alive, but my paladins had killed his commander and body guards. All that was left was one drone squad, a largely ineffective broadside, and one firewarrior.
Turn one saw the utter destruction of two FW squads and two PF squads as my terminators and paladins (libby attached) teleported in on turn one, and my interceptor squad shunted in. He thought he was toast after that turn, then my dice betrayed me. Hahaha. But my greatest challenge was getting into charge distance of his commander who had jetpacks.
I say all this because before I was trying to play the mid-range shooting game but the change of the psycannon to salvo forced me to play aggressively and it largely was very effective, barring poor rolls.
What's fun for me is I never used the Psybolt ammo in my force, so i wont miss most of the "nerfs". I didn't use Storm Ravens either. the Dreadnought cost increase may force me not to use THEM anymore (their Reinforced Aegis was very cool before the new FAQ and now I have to re-evaluate with this new book).
My Psyker dice went WAY up without changing ANYTHING in my force. So that was fan-freaking-tastic.
My list was essentially 40 Purifiers, Vindicare Assassin, Rhino, two Lazerbacks, 2 dreads (multimelta and lascannon), Crowe. The end. Easy to transport, easy to remember and very deadly.
Sounds like I'm going to get FORCED to add something in place of one Purifier unit (troops requirement). Since I now have to take some Strike Squads as troops anyways (unless Crowe still makes Purifiers troops, which I doubt), that kinda solves itself. Okay fine.
Looks like Dreads may (or may not) be gone depending on what they can do for me. The two Dreads can maybe be replaced with... Assassin Formation? It's 260 points to play with (previous pricing). Hmm... suggestions? i always found it important with that list to have long range weapons to keep the enemy honest and unable to play keep away. Getting out ranged is a bad idea in 40K against a canny opponent who pays close attention. I also loved having those Doom Fists because nasty things like our own DreadKnights, or even Riptides, need a big teddy bear they can hug. as they were fairly low priority targets for most enemies, I got to use those fists more often than one would think.
Looks like Dreads may (or may not) be gone depending on what they can do for me. The two Dreads can maybe be replaced with... Assassin Formation? It's 260 points to play with (previous pricing). Hmm... suggestions? i always found it important with that list to have long range weapons to keep the enemy honest and unable to play keep away. Getting out ranged is a bad idea in 40K against a canny opponent who pays close attention.
I play primarily play DE competitively and the presences of psyrifleman was always what kept me honest from just kiting with venoms and ravagers. Psybacks to a lessor extent. Dropping those 48" low AV murderers would hurt against some armies.
Looks like Dreads may (or may not) be gone depending on what they can do for me. The two Dreads can maybe be replaced with... Assassin Formation? It's 260 points to play with (previous pricing). Hmm... suggestions? i always found it important with that list to have long range weapons to keep the enemy honest and unable to play keep away. Getting out ranged is a bad idea in 40K against a canny opponent who pays close attention.
I play primarily play DE competitively and the presences of psyrifleman was always what kept me honest from just kiting with venoms and ravagers. Psybacks to a lessor extent. Dropping those 48" low AV murderers would hurt against some armies.
Well you're tracking with me because I also play Dark Eldar and I love Night Shields. they pretty much invalidate all BUT 48" weaponry. Knowing that, you have to think carefully before you abandon "suboptimal" units that serve this purpose. Vindicare is a multipurpose armor/person killer, the two Razorbacks are accurate and the Lascnnon dread is accurate and with good range, able to take on any target. So it's why theyve been there all along,.
Plus the Strategic Warlord Traits which I always roll on can REALLY help the army bring the pain. So having some units on the board that are tough is good and the box's provide cover for the Dreads. I dunno. the synergy has been really good. On paper it doesnt look sexy but my experience with various armies really makes me leary of giving enemies like ShadowWeavers and the like too long to work unabated on preferential targets.
Jancoran wrote: What's fun for me is I never used the Psybolt ammo in my force, so i wont miss most of the "nerfs". I didn't use Storm Ravens either. the Dreadnought cost increase may force me not to use THEM anymore (their Reinforced Aegis was very cool before the new FAQ and now I have to re-evaluate with this new book).
My Psyker dice went WAY up without changing ANYTHING in my force. So that was fan-freaking-tastic.
My list was essentially 40 Purifiers, Vindicare Assassin, Rhino, two Lazerbacks, 2 dreads (multimelta and lascannon), Crowe. The end. Easy to transport, easy to remember and very deadly.
Sounds like I'm going to get FORCED to add something in place of one Purifier unit (troops requirement). Since I now have to take some Strike Squads as troops anyways (unless Crowe still makes Purifiers troops, which I doubt), that kinda solves itself. Okay fine.
Looks like Dreads may (or may not) be gone depending on what they can do for me. The two Dreads can maybe be replaced with... Assassin Formation? It's 260 points to play with (previous pricing). Hmm... suggestions? i always found it important with that list to have long range weapons to keep the enemy honest and unable to play keep away. Getting out ranged is a bad idea in 40K against a canny opponent who pays close attention. I also loved having those Doom Fists because nasty things like our own DreadKnights, or even Riptides, need a big teddy bear they can hug. as they were fairly low priority targets for most enemies, I got to use those fists more often than one would think.
Anywho, I need to see this darn book!
Honestly, I wouldn't even bother with strike squads. For 55 pts more you're looking at a squad of termies. Since the FOC only requires one troop per CAD I'd just take a bare-bones Terminator squad and keep loading up on the Purifiers if you're going to go that route. I just feel they'e much more cost effective. I'm down on Strike Squads in general, but your mileage may vary.
The Dreads are just way too expensive in a slot where Dreadknights reign supreme. They got so much better with the point reduction and sanctuary stock that it's hard to find another unit to recommend in heavy.
Jancoran wrote: What's fun for me is I never used the Psybolt ammo in my force, so i wont miss most of the "nerfs". I didn't use Storm Ravens either. the Dreadnought cost increase may force me not to use THEM anymore (their Reinforced Aegis was very cool before the new FAQ and now I have to re-evaluate with this new book).
My Psyker dice went WAY up without changing ANYTHING in my force. So that was fan-freaking-tastic.
My list was essentially 40 Purifiers, Vindicare Assassin, Rhino, two Lazerbacks, 2 dreads (multimelta and lascannon), Crowe. The end. Easy to transport, easy to remember and very deadly.
Sounds like I'm going to get FORCED to add something in place of one Purifier unit (troops requirement). Since I now have to take some Strike Squads as troops anyways (unless Crowe still makes Purifiers troops, which I doubt), that kinda solves itself. Okay fine.
Looks like Dreads may (or may not) be gone depending on what they can do for me. The two Dreads can maybe be replaced with... Assassin Formation? It's 260 points to play with (previous pricing). Hmm... suggestions? i always found it important with that list to have long range weapons to keep the enemy honest and unable to play keep away. Getting out ranged is a bad idea in 40K against a canny opponent who pays close attention. I also loved having those Doom Fists because nasty things like our own DreadKnights, or even Riptides, need a big teddy bear they can hug. as they were fairly low priority targets for most enemies, I got to use those fists more often than one would think.
Anywho, I need to see this darn book!
Honestly, I wouldn't even bother with strike squads. For 55 pts more you're looking at a squad of termies. Since the FOC only requires one troop per CAD I'd just take a bare-bones Terminator squad and keep loading up on the Purifiers if you're going to go that route. I just feel they'e much more cost effective. I'm down on Strike Squads in general, but your mileage may vary.
The Dreads are just way too expensive in a slot where Dreadknights reign supreme. They got so much better with the point reduction and sanctuary stock that it's hard to find another unit to recommend in heavy.
CAD's require two troops. Also: Strike Squads would leave more points to turn Dreadnoughts into Dreadnights, yeah?
I think he means the Nemesis Strike Force, which is a Detachment and not a Combined Arms Detachment
Auswin wrote: Yes, I did. My I meant teleport homers. However, is there a reason it wouldn't work? I mean, the rules for gate say you remove them from the table and immediately place them "as if arriving from deep strike reserve"
"It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike."
So no, that wouldn't work since they don't come out of the Deep Strike Reserve.
A reroll is not a modifier, it doesnt change the number required to succeed.
That doesn't alter the fact that this special rule is unit specific and therfore the unit must be targeted for it to take effect.
The BRB also says that any unit in your army can attempt to deny the witch for blessings. Therefore it is a "by unit" action so I can pick which unit denies. And as said above, a re-roll is not a modifier.
CAD's require two troops. Also: Strike Squads would leave more points to turn Dreadnoughts into Dreadnights, yeah?
No, not unless you're using the 7th ed rulebook CAD to get obsec, which is wasted in a GK list. They have their own CAD as outlined in the codex. 1 HQ and 1 troop required, with 1 HQ, 4 elite, 2 FA, 2 HS, 1 LOW, 1 fortification optional.
You forego obsec for being allowed to arrive via deep strike starting turn one on a 3+, which is vastly better than getting obsec in an army that doesn't have the option for a cheap troop choice.
Yes taking SS allows for more points in HS, but I think it's wasted. You get those points from running very cheap ML3 librarians, or if you really want to be cheap taking techmarines as HQs.
I don't know if it is a CAD but it is some special detachment in the GK book. One hq one troop minimum and can take 2 heavies and 4 elites. Good if you want gk as a supplemental force (Lib, 5 GKT and 2 Dreadknights is legal).
Kangodo wrote: Auswin, that is not a CAD.
A CAD always has two troops and one HQ as minimum. Always.
Okay yes, it's a "detachment," while "Combined Arms Detachment refers solely to the BRB example, which gives obsec and re-rolling of warlord traits. Sorry if people were confused. That said, many many people are still under the misunderstanding that they have to follow the CAD to be a battle-forged army, which is untrue. As long as you're using outlined detachments to make your list you're following the rules for being battle-forged.
I was speaking to the idea that a GK army MUST have two troop choices, which is not true. You can run two GK detachments with 8 elites and two troops and still be battle-forged.
CAD's require two troops. Also: Strike Squads would leave more points to turn Dreadnoughts into Dreadnights, yeah?
No, not unless you're using the 7th ed rulebook CAD to get obsec, which is wasted in a GK list. They have their own CAD as outlined in the codex. 1 HQ and 1 troop required, with 1 HQ, 4 elite, 2 FA, 2 HS, 1 LOW, 1 fortification optional.
You forego obsec for being allowed to arrive via deep strike starting turn one on a 3+, which is vastly better than getting obsec in an army that doesn't have the option for a cheap troop choice.
Yes taking SS allows for more points in HS, but I think it's wasted. You get those points from running very cheap ML3 librarians, or if you really want to be cheap taking techmarines as HQs.
Yes but a CAD by definition is a Combined Arms Detachment and thats what you said the "FOC requires one troop per CAD". So if you didn't mean CAD, then I guess you may be right; but you should then say "Wahtever whatever of doom Detachment" so I know you're making a distinction. CAD is avery specific kind of detachment, as you know.
No biggee though. I like Objective Secured as an advantage but Ill have to take a look at this FOC and decide if its advantage outweighs my wish to break ties.
CAD's require two troops. Also: Strike Squads would leave more points to turn Dreadnoughts into Dreadnights, yeah?
No, not unless you're using the 7th ed rulebook CAD to get obsec, which is wasted in a GK list. They have their own CAD as outlined in the codex. 1 HQ and 1 troop required, with 1 HQ, 4 elite, 2 FA, 2 HS, 1 LOW, 1 fortification optional.
You forego obsec for being allowed to arrive via deep strike starting turn one on a 3+, which is vastly better than getting obsec in an army that doesn't have the option for a cheap troop choice.
Yes taking SS allows for more points in HS, but I think it's wasted. You get those points from running very cheap ML3 librarians, or if you really want to be cheap taking techmarines as HQs.
Yes but a CAD by definition is a Combined Arms Detachment and thats what you said the "FOC requires one troop per CAD". So if you didn't mean CAD, then I guess you may be right; but you should then say "Wahtever whatever of doom Detachment" so I know you're making a distinction. CAD is avery specific kind of detachment, as you know.
No biggee though. I like Objective Secured as an advantage but Ill have to take a look at this FOC and decide if its advantage outweighs my wish to break ties.
I understand why a lot of people are questioning the loss of objective secured with a lot of the new detachent types coming out lately, but I think some perspective should be used, at least with an army like the Grey Knights. With some of the most expensive "basic" troops in the game, I honestly feel that the likelihood of you coming into a situation where ObSec would be useful is low. Against ObSec MSU spam, you don't stand a chance at contesting regardless because you will absolutely be outnumbered against almost every other army out there, so you might as well play to your strengths and try to shift units off objectives by killing them.
The GK detachment is one troop choice minimum, so you take it to spend less on troops and more on other stuff. Objective secured doesn't matter if you are running mostly not troops.
I understand why a lot of people are questioning the loss of objective secured with a lot of the new detachent types coming out lately, but I think some perspective should be used, at least with an army like the Grey Knights. With some of the most expensive "basic" troops in the game, I honestly feel that the likelihood of you coming into a situation where ObSec would be useful is low. Against ObSec MSU spam, you don't stand a chance at contesting regardless because you will absolutely be outnumbered against almost every other army out there, so you might as well play to your strengths and try to shift units off objectives by killing them.
This is absolutely my thought. Thank you for summing it up so well.
You will never have the numbers advantage playing GK, and I think settling for sub par options to fill the CAD plays against their strengths. In my experience the times two units are contesting an objective are rare, if ever. That could be my local meta, but obsec has never been a huge boon in playing. In the 5 games I played the 3+ DS reserves and running then shooting where immeasurably powerful. Incinerator Interceptors coming in and getting that first flame is huge -- and it allows for null deploy, which I think is a viable option in non-Purifier lists.
Well, Obsec is mostly an issue for some fast transports out there... My regular opponents include DE and Eldar... Especially with the insane flat out move on those things, I've had more than a few objectives snatched from me already.
It's also really hard to do a 3" screen against such fast moving skimmers who essentially just fly over the screen.
But I do agree with the general statement that with such insanely expensive troops, GKs will run minimum troops almost all the time. So the loss of Obsec on just one or 2 units, isn't something to get too upset about. Especially now that MSUSS and psyback has been destroyed.
And that last thing is a good summing up of the GK strenghts.
It doesn't always land in enemy face, but when it does it always combat squads. Thus far it's simply won by having too many big threats too close for my opponents to deal with. Everyone's still playing the long range game and no one seems to be adapting to the short game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also toying with a squad of psilencers buffed by the soul glaive.
Dreadknight doesn't come stock with force now? Odd
It doesn't always land in enemy face, but when it does it always combat squads. Thus far it's simply won by having too many big threats too close for my opponents to deal with. Everyone's still playing the long range game and no one seems to be adapting to the short game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also toying with a squad of psilencers buffed by the soul glaive.
Dreadknight doesn't come stock with force now? Odd
Seems to me the strength of GK is Dreadknights.
I'd go NSF and CAD (as locally you're allowed any 2 different detachments), and run 2 HQ, 3 troops and 5 Dreadknights.
Think of it, turn 1 I shunt 5 monstrous jump creatures into your face, and drop down a ton of soul blazing S6 torrents.
Using Librarians as HQ, I'm at 14 dice for the bare bones.
HawaiiMatt wrote: Seems to me the strength of GK is Dreadknights.
I'd go NSF and CAD (as locally you're allowed any 2 different detachments), and run 2 HQ, 3 troops and 5 Dreadknights.
Think of it, turn 1 I shunt 5 monstrous jump creatures into your face, and drop down a ton of soul blazing S6 torrents.
Using Librarians as HQ, I'm at 14 dice for the bare bones.
Well, five NDK's as a bit over the top.
What kind of troops have you taken?
HawaiiMatt wrote: Seems to me the strength of GK is Dreadknights.
I'd go NSF and CAD (as locally you're allowed any 2 different detachments), and run 2 HQ, 3 troops and 5 Dreadknights.
Think of it, turn 1 I shunt 5 monstrous jump creatures into your face, and drop down a ton of soul blazing S6 torrents.
Using Librarians as HQ, I'm at 14 dice for the bare bones.
Well, five NDK's as a bit over the top.
What kind of troops have you taken?
I think that's what he was going for lol.
I'm betting Terminators for the troops. 5 GKT isn't much more than 5 GKSS in a rhino. Though if he is saving his points, maybe GKSS...
Ok, 1850:
2x Librarian, level 2 (110 each)
5x3 Strike Squads, incinerator (115 each)
5x Nemesis Dreadknights, heavy incinerators, personal teleporters (180 points each)
Knight Paladin
10 points left over.
If I rolled up invisibility, I'd cast that on the Knight Paladin. If I didn't get invisibility, I'd deep strike reserve the libarians and the 3 troop choices.
It is very light on actual threatening shooting. Almost all of its shooting is template. I would take heavy psycannons on the dradknights instead, that gives you something.
Also it lacks the ability to remove serious threats to the list.
It has nothing that could deal with even one grav cent unit, regardless of how it deployed
Leth wrote: It is very light on actual threatening shooting. Almost all of its shooting is template. I would take heavy psycannons on the dradknights instead, that gives you something.
I strongly agree with this. Ideally heavy incinerator and heavy psycannon but there aren't any points for that...
Personally I am still a fan of psycannons on power armor. With the deep strike formation you are sacrificing one turn of shooting even if it was still heavy anyway and then use that turn to get into position at the mid table, ideally on objectives and then sit on them while unloading. You can move everything else in the unit if you need to.
In addition you can take them in rhinos, spend a turn getting into position and then fire out of the hatches.
I only see incinerators being worthwhile on interceptors, especially with that first turn shunt to get into range, you just dont want to risk the deep strike without it. Also I would always cap the librarians. The cost per warp charge goes down significantly for each additional point as well as a greater likelihood of getting the powers you want.
Leth wrote: It is very light on actual threatening shooting. Almost all of its shooting is template. I would take heavy psycannons on the dradknights instead, that gives you something.
Also it lacks the ability to remove serious threats to the list.
It has nothing that could deal with even one grav cent unit, regardless of how it deployed
Silly me, I thought WS5 S10 pasted those guys. Grav cents aren't going to get all 5. The answer for grav cents is to shunt 3-5 dreadknights point blank, take the 1 round of fire, and then charge in.
5+ invul, with the power to boost to 4+ invul is stock on them.
T5 2+ is very tough for GK to deal with; and shooting isn't the answer.
I want to like psycannons (as it's what I own), but the cost of packing psycannons has gone up, significantly.
Strikes went from 220 for 2 psycannons to 240.
Purifers went from 280 for 4, to 310.
Paladins held at 315 for 2 (in squad of 5).
Terminators dropped to 185 per psycannon.
Interceptors up 145 for 1, from 140.
Purgation Squad; dropped 10 points to 170, from 180 (for four 4).
Razorbacks and dreadnoughts lost the option for twin-linked psycannons (previously known as assault cannon with psybolts).
On the whole, you're showing up with a lot less psycannons, and those psycannons have half the range and firepower if you move (as opposed to half the firepower).
However the psycannons worked for you two weeks ago, they are going to working worse now.
The only two choices where psycannons saw an improvement was on purgations squads, and terminators; though Purge squads are super fragile (losses likely to knock out psycannons quickly) and terminators, while cheaper, still pay more than anyone else, making them the worse choice for the firepower.
On the other hand, a shunting Dreadknight is ~55 points cheaper.
IMO, the shooting is now too expensive, and too concentrated into foot sloggers with no real mobility (only purifiers and purgation squads get decent firepower for the points, and they don't teleport or shunt). On the other hand, a fast moving hard hitting force might have a chance. I'm not saying that 20 wounds worth of T6 with 2+ and 4or5++ is the best list, I'm just saying that what the book seems to be pushing for.
I really want to like psilencers. The idea of 24 S4 instant death shoots is appealing to me. I just don't see a way to get them into the fight where I need them.
Silly me, I thought WS5 S10 pasted those guys. Grav cents aren't going to get all 5. The answer for grav cents is to shunt 3-5 dreadknights point blank, take the 1 round of fire, and then charge in.
5+ invul, with the power to boost to 4+ invul is stock on them.
T5 2+ is very tough for GK to deal with; and shooting isn't the answer.
My point was that it lacks the ability to deal with even one unit. Relying on assault to kill things is not really viable as your sole competative strategy. It is VERY easy for me to protect the unit from assault for 1-2 turns.
For example unless you had activated force on all of them during your turn with my current list I would kill two reliably with my cents/other shooting(did the math) then charge and probably kill 1-2 with the rest of my guys. That is also factoring in reasonable casualties from shooting. Dreadknights just are not durable enough to be the main source for attacking ability. You are missing out on playing the mid-range shooting game which is very VERY important. Will you wreck a good number of lists? Probably, but a good tournament list is going to love this.
I want to like psycannons (as it's what I own), but the cost of packing psycannons has gone up, significantly.
Strikes went from 220 for 2 psycannons to 240.
Purifers went from 280 for 4, to 310.
Paladins held at 315 for 2 (in squad of 5).
Terminators dropped to 185 per psycannon.
Interceptors up 145 for 1, from 140.
Purgation Squad; dropped 10 points to 170, from 180 (for four 4).
Which is fine, but dont get caught up in the cognitive fallacy of it costing more or less than it used to. All that matters is the now. Purifiers I would run 5 man units with two in rhinos, no reason to cap them, especially when it comes to getting warpcharges and extra novas. Strikes would be a combat squaded unit in rhino with two and then deep striking 5. There are ways to make it work, just have to adjust your thinking on the units.
Razorbacks and dreadnoughts lost the option for twin-linked psycannons (previously known as assault cannon with psybolts).
On the whole, you're showing up with a lot less psycannons, and those psycannons have half the range and firepower if you move (as opposed to half the firepower).
However the psycannons worked for you two weeks ago, they are going to working worse now.
Worse on a strict comparison basis, sure. However in the context of the new army I can see them still being useful. You weren't taking them on dreads, you were taking psyfulmens anyway. Once again its about adapting and playing differently.
The only two choices where psycannons saw an improvement was on purgations squads, and terminators; though Purge squads are super fragile (losses likely to knock out psycannons quickly) and terminators, while cheaper, still pay more than anyone else, making them the worse choice for the firepower.
On the other hand, a shunting Dreadknight is ~55 points cheaper.
I am not denying that dreadknights are better than before. My point is that it has a limited role. Sometimes it will be fantastic and have plenty of opportunities, other times it wont and you will get crushed.
IMO, the shooting is now too expensive, and too concentrated into foot sloggers with no real mobility (only purifiers and purgation squads get decent firepower for the points, and they don't teleport or shunt). On the other hand, a fast moving hard hitting force might have a chance. I'm not saying that 20 wounds worth of T6 with 2+ and 4or5++ is the best list, I'm just saying that what the book seems to be pushing for.
I really want to like psilencers. The idea of 24 S4 instant death shoots is appealing to me. I just don't see a way to get them into the fight where I need them.
And I can totally understand how that is a reasonable gut reaction to the new stuff. However there are plenty of ways to work in mobility to the list AND have shooting.
For starters I think you would be better off with a big terminator squad than the strikes with psycannons. Also gives your librarians a good place to go. While the heavy incinerators are nice I would probably limit it to 2 of them, the rest heavy psycannons. Also as said earlier cap the librarians
So something similar to what you posted.
Strike Formation
2x level 3 Librarian, one with Liber
10x Paladins 3x daemon hammer, Nemesis banner, 4x psycannon, Apoth
5x Strike 1x psycannon with Rhino and dozer
Fast Attack Rhino with dozer
2x Nemesis Dreadknights - Sword, Incinerator, Teleporter
Knight Errant
Comms Relay and aegis
Personally I would find something like this much more intimidating. Obviously there are a few improvements that could be made but its a guideline while staying similar to your posted list
Strike Formation
2x level 3 Librarian, one with Liber
10x Paladins 3x daemon hammer, Nemesis banner, 4x psycannon, Apoth
5x Strike 1x psycannon with Rhino and dozer
Fast Attack Rhino with dozer
2x Nemesis Dreadknights - Sword, Incinerator, Teleporter
Knight Errant
Comms Relay and aegis
Personally I would find something like this much more intimidating. Obviously there are a few improvements that could be made but its a guideline while staying similar to your posted list
I don't like the pally star. Too much risk of over-kill, too hard to engage multiple units, and cannot sweep.
5 psycannons is good for ~3 wounds on a 2+ target in the open.
Which is fair enough, I just said what I would find more intimidating with my list. Personally I would make changes to make it more competative by dropping the knight and getting some sisters but that is me.
This is what I want to see. Ive been wondering how purifier armies are doing.
Well you'll be finding out right after my birthday because I apparently will be expecting a Codex that day. and since mine are so nicely painted...
personally I dont ACTUALLY expect an enormous change in the way I play them. by ALL accounts I've collected, my personal list is unaffected in important ways. I can literally field my ESSENTIAL list. I just need to figure out if Dreadnoughts are staying or going basically. I have heard nothing about Purgation Squads, which is par for the course since no one ever used them but me. I might just put a Purgation squad in place of the Dreads and call it a day. They work as well as my Purifiers do.
I will be playing this Sunday and this is my army. I'm playing with friends and will be 2v2. I will be going against Tau and Black Templars....and allied with CSM, hahaha. We only have one army each so we aren't paying attention to "ally limitations," for now.
Any advice? I plan on deep striking everyone but the purifiers. IF I get gate of infinity with the libby, I will attach him to the purifiers and run with it. I plan on shunting the interceptors on turn one and deep striking my team 6" from them. The techmarine and GM will join the paladin squad and I will take prescience for my GM and hopefully sanctuary and hopefully precognition or misfortune.
Sorry that it looks odd, I copied and pasted from battlescribe.
wuestenfux wrote: This army is too top heavy.
In maelstrom mission you'll see that more bodies are necessary.
Mine? I only started playing in July, in fact this will be my 5th game. I have one box of PAGK that I haven't gotten to yet but other than that, what I just put is essentially my whole army save for a few termy models and a dreadnought.
At least its not tau's 5th edition omega strike x_X (we came up to that one right before 6th edition, it allowed us to ensure pretty much our whole army got on the table T4 using an item that no longer exists)
Anyway, yes-in malstorm you CAN lose the game even if you overwhelmed the opponent. heck, I had eternal war games where I won with less then 100 points worth of models surviving.
I will be playing this Sunday and this is my army. I'm playing with friends and will be 2v2. I will be going against Tau and Black Templars....and allied with CSM, hahaha. We only have one army each so we aren't paying attention to "ally limitations," for now.
Any advice? I plan on deep striking everyone but the purifiers. IF I get gate of infinity with the libby, I will attach him to the purifiers and run with it. I plan on shunting the interceptors on turn one and deep striking my team 6" from them. The techmarine and GM will join the paladin squad and I will take prescience for my GM and hopefully sanctuary and hopefully precognition or misfortune.
Sorry that it looks odd, I copied and pasted from battlescribe.
* Paladin Squad (197pts) (3-man squad)
* Apothecary (75pts)
Nemesis Force Sword (Daemonbane)
Nemesis Force Halberd
Nemesis Daemon Hammer
* Purifier Squad (147pts)
2x Incinerator
Daemon Hammer
Force Halberd
Force Sword (50pts) (Daemonbane)
+ Troops + (177pts)
* Terminator Squad (177pts)
Daemon Hammer
Force Halberd
2x Force Sword
+ Fast Attack + (147pts)
* Interceptor Squad (147pts)
Incinerator
Force Halberd (26pts) (Daemonbane),
3x Force Sword (72pts) (Daemonbane),
Teleport Homer (10pts)
Why the Techmarine? That's almost two more Paladins you could have instead. Or even a Strike, Purifier, or Interceptor squad for a few more points to have another unit on the table.
I will be playing this Sunday and this is my army. I'm playing with friends and will be 2v2. I will be going against Tau and Black Templars....and allied with CSM, hahaha. We only have one army each so we aren't paying attention to "ally limitations," for now.
Any advice? I plan on deep striking everyone but the purifiers. IF I get gate of infinity with the libby, I will attach him to the purifiers and run with it. I plan on shunting the interceptors on turn one and deep striking my team 6" from them. The techmarine and GM will join the paladin squad and I will take prescience for my GM and hopefully sanctuary and hopefully precognition or misfortune.
Sorry that it looks odd, I copied and pasted from battlescribe.
* Paladin Squad (197pts) (3-man squad)
* Apothecary (75pts)
Nemesis Force Sword (Daemonbane)
Nemesis Force Halberd
Nemesis Daemon Hammer
* Purifier Squad (147pts)
2x Incinerator
Daemon Hammer
Force Halberd
Force Sword (50pts) (Daemonbane)
+ Troops + (177pts)
* Terminator Squad (177pts)
Daemon Hammer
Force Halberd
2x Force Sword
+ Fast Attack + (147pts)
* Interceptor Squad (147pts)
Incinerator
Force Halberd (26pts) (Daemonbane),
3x Force Sword (72pts) (Daemonbane),
Teleport Homer (10pts)
Why the Techmarine? That's almost two more Paladins you could have instead. Or even a Strike, Purifier, or Interceptor squad for a few more points to have another unit on the table.
Hey, I chose the TM cause he gets the TL plasma, the flamer, and his servo arm. I'm hoping to tear my friend's rhino in half. But great point. Next time I will likely field a 5 man paladin squad as my TM has been borderline useless up to this point. Though I've only used him twice and both times with a conversion beamer. I'm basically just feeling him out. 1W, but he has the potential do some massive close range and melee damage. We'll see if this works or not.
You mention shunting the Interceptors and dropping your army in 6" around them... How? If they somehow have a homing becon, etc... its moot as you'll have to check reserves and deep-strike before you'd have had a chance to do your shunt-move.
I don't think you'll be having more bodies easily with this new book. At the base cost of 20p per body for units that are now essentially worhtless (strike squads), there's no way you can make "ideal" lists for maelstrom missions.
At best, you get to rely of teleport and deepstrike shenanigans to just plain be faster than the enemy. I'm not really seeing any effective options for tarpit units (outside purifiers perhaps).
And to any person saying: just detroy his troops... that only works if he's running 2x MSU to meet the troops requirements themselves... Usually, in those types of lists, you are doing them a favor if you leave their primary threats untouched to direct the little amount of shooting options we have at small units.
anybody who's seriously invested in troops (like IG blobs, boyz, zombie cultists, wave serpents,...) are all things that won't just be shot off the board as you deepstrike. They do pose a problem.... A serious problem for GKs, because tarpits really are the enemy.
Right, its not very easy to have more bodies with the new codex.
Two weeks ago, I battled SW aith my GK according to the old codex in a maelstrom mission.
Using Coteaz and 3x3 Henchmen with Psybacks was really a bargain. There role was to hold the 3 home objective.
My 2 NDK's and 30 Purifiers were putting pressure upon the SW army which started to crumble in round 3.
My opponent gave up in round 4.
Without the Henchmen things were much more difficult.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: You mention shunting the Interceptors and dropping your army in 6" around them... How? If they somehow have a homing becon, etc... its moot as you'll have to check reserves and deep-strike before you'd have had a chance to do your shunt-move.
So... i'm not sure what you mean?
You're right, I forgot DS has to happen first. This will only be my 5th game so still picking things up. And I only started using DS last game. I was foot slogging all my units at first (which ended very poorly) and I tried to DS one time before but failed all 3 turns and managed to kill my other squad. ok, I ave 10 pts to spend elsewhere. I wish the servo skull was still a thing in 7e.
I just had my first game with the new GK codex last night, and it was a blast. The game itself was pretty close, so no OP cheese and certainly not a smack with the nerfbat.
I played a list with two units of 5 paladins with an Apoth, 2 psycannons, and 2 hammers, each led by a brother-captain with a Psycannon. Then I had an 8 man Termie squad with a psycannon and hammer, and 2 Dreadknights with PT, HI, HP, and sword. I played against a Necron list with 2 Barges, 2 Barge lords (with full kit, including Tachyon arrow and Tesseract Labyrinth), two deathmarks with the damn flamer HQ in Scythes, and two 10 man warrior units in Scythes.
I rolled on the BRB warlord traits and got to re-roll my reserve rolls (huzzah). I also won the right to choose first turn, gave my opponent first turn, and null deployed. I then deep struck everything on his castled up barges and started firing away. 3 Psycannons (with prescience thanks to Bro-Captain) in two units, plus 6 shots from each of the dreadknights had no problem knocking out an Annihilliation Barge for first blood. His deathmarks almost wiped the Termie squad, but barely dented one of the paladin units, and it was a steady grinding away of his forces from there, though my opponent played well and kept the game very close.
Things I took from this game for the new Codex:
- cheap FNP is ridiculously good. Both Dreadknights and the Termies were dead by end game, but one paladin squad didn't suffer a single casualty, and the other was half strength.
- GK has more cool powers that we would like to cast than we have warp charges. This will be a problem, even if you're rolling the super ML3 Libby. I was wanting to cast Hammerhand, Prescience on two units, Forewarning, and Sanctuary on my Dreadknights, and I was just running out of warp charges fast every turn
- Which brings me to Halberds: I kept them in this game because that was how I had them modeled from last codex, and it came in handy having the extra Strength without Hammerhand
- Massed Psycannons will mess up anyone's day. With 6 psycannons and 2 heavy psycannons, AV13 (and so likely, 14) doesn't hold up.
- Sanctuary is awesome on the Dreadknights. Cast it, make sure it goes off when AP2 is around. Makes them so much more survivable. Both of them held up to two Bargelords, despite MSS making them beat themselves up for multiple turns.
- DS turn 1 is fantastic, though you need to be mindful of fast units that can scoot across the board where you aren't, cuz you're not getting back to the other side once you come in.
Just thought I'd share, let me know your thoughts and have fun with the new Grey Knights.
Elmir wrote: I don't think you'll be having more bodies easily with this new book. At the base cost of 20p per body for units that are now essentially worhtless (strike squads), there's no way you can make "ideal" lists for maelstrom missions.
At best, you get to rely of teleport and deepstrike shenanigans to just plain be faster than the enemy. I'm not really seeing any effective options for tarpit units (outside purifiers perhaps).
And to any person saying: just detroy his troops... that only works if he's running 2x MSU to meet the troops requirements themselves... Usually, in those types of lists, you are doing them a favor if you leave their primary threats untouched to direct the little amount of shooting options we have at small units.
anybody who's seriously invested in troops (like IG blobs, boyz, zombie cultists, wave serpents,...) are all things that won't just be shot off the board as you deepstrike. They do pose a problem.... A serious problem for GKs, because tarpits really are the enemy.
This is why GK alone is tough. Better to use the special GK detachment, take 2 DKs, an HQ or two, one troop and some elites/fast attack and join that up with some other army so you can get some more guys on the table...
Elmir wrote: I don't think you'll be having more bodies easily with this new book. At the base cost of 20p per body for units that are now essentially worhtless (strike squads), there's no way you can make "ideal" lists for maelstrom missions.
At best, you get to rely of teleport and deepstrike shenanigans to just plain be faster than the enemy. I'm not really seeing any effective options for tarpit units (outside purifiers perhaps).
And to any person saying: just detroy his troops... that only works if he's running 2x MSU to meet the troops requirements themselves... Usually, in those types of lists, you are doing them a favor if you leave their primary threats untouched to direct the little amount of shooting options we have at small units.
anybody who's seriously invested in troops (like IG blobs, boyz, zombie cultists, wave serpents,...) are all things that won't just be shot off the board as you deepstrike. They do pose a problem.... A serious problem for GKs, because tarpits really are the enemy.
This is why GK alone is tough. Better to use the special GK detachment, take 2 DKs, an HQ or two, one troop and some elites/fast attack and join that up with some other army so you can get some more guys on the table...
That sounds good, except when you take "2 DKs, an HQ or two, one troop, and some elites/fast attack" that pretty much fills a 1500-1850 list right there. GK awesomesauce costs money, son!
People keep saying Coteaz doesn't grant objective secured, but where was this spelled out? Looking on the website I can't see any Inquisition FAQ/errata at all.
Yes, strictly RAW I see he makes units scoring and they're already scoring now.
But if you point out that Pedro Kantor's similar rule has been errata'd to grant Objective Secured any reasonable opponent (and I'd imagine most TOs) would agree that Coteaz should function in an identical manner.
But a Librarian is 135, DKs are around 215 kitted out and one Terminator squad is less than 200. So that's around 750. Room for another CAD there...
Also very true. However, if that's all you're taking, you're really taking it for the Dreadknights. Libby's are fantastic support characters, but they don't dish out a lot of damage on their own. One 5 man squad of termies isn't going to tear through an army either, so you're essentially paying a 300 pt "tax" to get two dreadknights. The way this new codex is put together seems to encourage going "all in" with GK, maybe saving a few points to get cheap allies for the Grey Knights, but the GK themselves will not make cheap allies for other armies.
2 DreadKnights, Personal Teleporters, Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword
Draigo
Imperial Knight Errant
This was the I brought and it performed well. Everything used DS to come into battle. I wanted to test what it would be like to use this tactic. I got most of the things I needed in...except the 2 Dreadknights which didn't come in until turn 2 and 3 respectfully. What this did provide was the ability to save that shunt for the Interceptors and GK to use at another time. What you risk is them not being there for Turn 1. I had a lot of left over points which is why the Librarian has so many things attached to him but honestly, that Cuirass of Sacrifice was awesome for getting off a wound that happened to the Libby after a bad accident with Perils. The army performed well and I don't feel that the GKs are any lesser for what they lost in this new codex. Everything was also combat squadded for target saturation.
The psycannons going Salvo did not affect my strategy what so ever. I abuse the DS and shunt mechanics so much that this change didn't hurt me in the slightest and my Interceptors always got their psycannon shots off. I do want to play around with Incinerators a bit but honestly, the way I play my GK, my psycannons will always be useful. I just want to see if I can trim cost by taking Incinerators instead.
I was going to take a 10-man GKSS squad instead of Draigo but I wanted to see him in action and for his cheap points now, I threw him in and he performed like the beast that he is. I had him in with the 5 Terminators and the Librarian. The Librarian didn't get Invisibility unfortunately but the unit still didn't loose a lot usually because Draigo stepped in to tank a bunch of things with his Storm Shield. Draigo is expensive but I don't know if I want to take him out to get more bodies in the list. I don't think GKSS are completely dead and I don't like Purifiers because of their dependency on vehicles to get around. I understand the value of that Cleansing Flame but my Libby was doing the same thing because the book let him get that move. Also, Draigo auto-getting Gate of Infinity is huge and Purge Soul is a fun mechanic to make your opponent sweat as they possibly will see their warlord disappear with a simple dice roll.
I want to try out the GKSS just because they can DS and I want to try them with Incinerators now. That Soul Blaze mechanic on all Incinerators is pretty awesome. I know Purifiers might be better here but I love Deep Strike way too much to ever get rid of my GKSS in favor of the Purifiers.
Is the Imperial Knight Errant needed? Yes, definitely yes. I have made park lots and Terminators disappear with it and it makes up for the short comings of the rest of my army. The other detachment I run with my GK is Imperial Fists with a ML2 Libby, 3 Centurions TLLC/ML, 10 Tactical Marines with Melta and Combi-melta in a Drop Pod which also helps to solve these problems for the GKs but nothing has been more satisfying than watching an opponents Terminator squad that was threatening to go after your GK just be gone after a Thermal Cannon melted their faces. And that goes for vehicles as well. Plus the Knight Errant helps to provide more threats for them. Do they go after the Knight Errant or the DKs knocking on their door?
Changes that I would make would be possibly to have my shunters to start on the board still like I did before this codex to make sure that my Dreadknights are delivered where they need to be plus it takes away the threat of loosing the game because you don't have anything on the board. Another solution is to get an Aegis Defense Line with a Comms Relay to make sure that everything comes in when it is suppose to as well and with how many relics I stacked on the Libby to take up points, it wouldn't be a bad investment. It would also work for a place to put my Centurions when I take my Imperial Fist detachment with them.
The other debate I have been having is whether to stick with Telepathy on my Libby or to try for Santic. I had three rolls on Telepathy and didn't get Invis and I got Cleansing Flame with the roll from the book. I have seen the power of Sanctuary when AP 2 weaponry is around especially if you have someone like Draigo around to get a 2++ to tank everything for you (I had a Dreadknight within 12" of Draigos squad to cast Sanctuary). This leaves me with the debate of do I continue to try to get the 50% chance of Invis or the almost guaranteed chance of using the book for 4 rolls to get Sanctuary and I don't quite know which would be better right now.
Yup, when reading the new codex getting my list, I missed that rule and no one else caught it yesterday when we played. My mistake but now I definitely have some points to fill in that list.
I'd further save points by dropping greatswords on the Dreadknights. Master Crafted isn't exactly worth paying for, imo, nor is Daemonbane when you're rocking strength 10 anyway. Not sure if the combined savings cost of all above is worth anything. Perhaps a five man squad of something, or even another Librarian.
obsidiankatana wrote: I'd further save points by dropping greatswords on the Dreadknights. Master Crafted isn't exactly worth paying for, imo, nor is Daemonbane when you're rocking strength 10 anyway. Not sure if the combined savings cost of all above is worth anything. Perhaps a five man squad of something, or even another Librarian.
Greatswords are only 10 points in this new edition so shaving them off would give me 20 points so it isn't much in terms of points. I mean combined with those relics going bye it does equal a ADL with a Comms Relay but I could afford that without them being there and I could also take the hammers from the Interceptors. I would never actually have them go against vehicles.
Johnnytorrance wrote: What load outs should I give my termies, paladins and purifiers?
Is it easy to magnetize them?
I haven't tried to magnetize but I can't see them being difficult. Halberds are definitely worth taking on virtually everyone, imo. They are cheap, +1 S AP3 making them an absolute beast against most things and well worth taking over the free sword. I think 1 hammer in a squad of Terminators/Paladins is almost mandatory to help take care of armor and 2+ Armor, possibly 2 hammers if your list can afford it. A hammer in a Purifier squad might be useful but not needed. Warding staff is good but the only thing I ever have it on is the Librarian because it makes him a beast when it comes to Deny the Witch. Falchions might be useful and a lot of people have been saying that they are nice on units with only one attack.
As far as ranged weapons, Psycannons on both Terminators and Paladins where you can take them and probably Incinerators on the Purifiers but psycannons if you don't mind the Salvo on them. Haven't tried the Psilencers quite honestly but I think that might only be useful on a DK because it is a Heavy weapon.
obsidiankatana wrote: I'd further save points by dropping greatswords on the Dreadknights. Master Crafted isn't exactly worth paying for, imo, nor is Daemonbane when you're rocking strength 10 anyway. Not sure if the combined savings cost of all above is worth anything. Perhaps a five man squad of something, or even another Librarian.
Don't forget that the DK no longer has Nemesis Doomfists, just normal powerfists. If you want to be able to force kill another MC, you need either the Sword or Hammer. Both are actually decent buys now, but I lean toward the sword for the master-crafting to help ensure you get that one hit at least.
obsidiankatana wrote: I'd further save points by dropping greatswords on the Dreadknights. Master Crafted isn't exactly worth paying for, imo, nor is Daemonbane when you're rocking strength 10 anyway. Not sure if the combined savings cost of all above is worth anything. Perhaps a five man squad of something, or even another Librarian.
Don't forget that the DK no longer has Nemesis Doomfists, just normal powerfists. If you want to be able to force kill another MC, you need either the Sword or Hammer. Both are actually decent buys now, but I lean toward the sword for the master-crafting to help ensure you get that one hit at least.
Oh, I totally forgot about that ruling as well so yeah, in order to get force, you have to take those. Also, they are unwieldy so you would be going at Initiative 1 for both the Fists and the Hammer so even though the Hammer is just 5 points, it makes the 10 point cost of the sword that much worth it because you get to go at normal Initiative, it's Master-crafted and the Daemonbane make the sword worth the 10 points you have to pay for it.
obsidiankatana wrote: I'd further save points by dropping greatswords on the Dreadknights. Master Crafted isn't exactly worth paying for, imo, nor is Daemonbane when you're rocking strength 10 anyway. Not sure if the combined savings cost of all above is worth anything. Perhaps a five man squad of something, or even another Librarian.
Don't forget that the DK no longer has Nemesis Doomfists, just normal powerfists. If you want to be able to force kill another MC, you need either the Sword or Hammer. Both are actually decent buys now, but I lean toward the sword for the master-crafting to help ensure you get that one hit at least.
Oh, I totally forgot about that ruling as well so yeah, in order to get force, you have to take those. Also, they are unwieldy so you would be going at Initiative 1 for both the Fists and the Hammer so even though the Hammer is just 5 points, it makes the 10 point cost of the sword that much worth it because you get to go at normal Initiative, it's Master-crafted and the Daemonbane make the sword worth the 10 points you have to pay for it.
Well then, you could pay 5 points for the croquet mallet and get Force attached to it. Normally, yeah, you won't need this and the power fists would be fine to take out most targets but there is one thing that a DK is the best at taking out that gives everyone else a lot of trouble: Wraithknights and that is where that Force comes in handy.
I have always used the Sword when I can afford it and now with it being only 10 points to attach it, I am always going to take it because it has taken out a lot of serious threats before. Plus, it looks awesome, better than that hammer ever did.
Quick question: what would be the best loadout for my GK allies ?
1 x Librarian lvl 2
5 x Terminators in Land Raider Redeemer
1 x Nemesis dreadknight
I want to keep this cheap...around 700 pts
I was planning on giving the LR a multi-melta and running my dreadknight cheap (sword + incinerator) though I'm at a loss as to what to do with my Libby and termies, they'll obviously be riding my LR, but what loadout should I give them ? thanks.
RedFox wrote: Quick question: what would be the best loadout for my GK allies ?
1 x Librarian lvl 2
5 x Terminators in Land Raider Redeemer
1 x Nemesis dreadknight
I want to keep this cheap...around 700 pts
I was planning on giving the LR a multi-melta and running my dreadknight cheap (sword + incinerator) though I'm at a loss as to what to do with my Libby and termies, they'll obviously be riding my LR, but what loadout should I give them ? thanks.
It depends on what you want to use them for and what function they are going to have in your army.
RedFox wrote: Quick question: what would be the best loadout for my GK allies ?
1 x Librarian lvl 2
5 x Terminators in Land Raider Redeemer
1 x Nemesis dreadknight
I want to keep this cheap...around 700 pts
I was planning on giving the LR a multi-melta and running my dreadknight cheap (sword + incinerator) though I'm at a loss as to what to do with my Libby and termies, they'll obviously be riding my LR, but what loadout should I give them ? thanks.
I'm not sure I would take the Land Raider Redeemer. For its points, you can add a personal teleporter to the Dreadknight, upgrade the librarian to level 3, and add more terminators.
Any tips on how to fight against Deathwing armies?
I am considering spamming normal Termies with Hammers...usually they will strike at the same time as enemy tactical termies, but we're still at a disadvantage due to deathwing assault and mix-match shield + heavy weapons. I figure we'll have to rely on our libbies with psychic powers, but how can we turn things in our favor?
Clearly we are also outgunned in the dakka department as we can't just bring them down from volume of shots...the DA do a better job at that with dakka banner and LRCs
Of course, this will mean we have to rely on NDKs and Draigo to do most of the terminator slicing.
RedFox wrote: Quick question: what would be the best loadout for my GK allies ?
1 x Librarian lvl 2
5 x Terminators in Land Raider Redeemer
1 x Nemesis dreadknight
I want to keep this cheap...around 700 pts
I was planning on giving the LR a multi-melta and running my dreadknight cheap (sword + incinerator) though I'm at a loss as to what to do with my Libby and termies, they'll obviously be riding my LR, but what loadout should I give them ? thanks.
It'd be much better if you ran a ML3 Libby, one 5 man unit of Terminators with a psycannon and a hammer (and maybe the rest halbreds) and TWO dreadknights with personal teleporters.
You can't do this as 'allies' but you can do it using the GK special detachment, the one that has bonuses to deep striking (let's you do the reserve roll on turn 1, let's them run and shoot). I think that would be a lot better than using a land raider...
Sir Arun wrote: Any tips on how to fight against Deathwing armies?
I am considering spamming normal Termies with Hammers...usually they will strike at the same time as enemy tactical termies, but we're still at a disadvantage due to deathwing assault and mix-match shield + heavy weapons. I figure we'll have to rely on our libbies with psychic powers, but how can we turn things in our favor?
Clearly we are also outgunned in the dakka department as we can't just bring them down from volume of shots...the DA do a better job at that with dakka banner and LRCs
Of course, this will mean we have to rely on NDKs and Draigo to do most of the terminator slicing.
We are actually not outgunned by deathwing, we have better shooting in the form of Psycannons. GK are better off against Deathwing than they are against us. In this matchup, I'd actually advocate for going first, dumping our Termies or Pallies on an objective, and wait for the deathwing assault. Let them come down right next to you and fire stormbolters, and maybe a cyclone launcher. Big deal. Maybe lose one. Then retaliate with two psycannons and your stormbolters, probably cause one more casualty to them than they do to you. Charge in, likely kill one or two more just due to weight of dice (particularly if you have prescience on the unit or just Pallies in general with WS5). There should only be a few left to swing their power fists, and then you also get to swing your hammers. You will take casualties, sure, but his unit gets wiped and yours doesn't.
you forget that when they come in, all their ranged weapons get the twin-link
what's more, if they employ Deathwing Knights, they can pretty much 1-hit kill our NDKs
they have access to stormshields which will absorb the few deamonhammers we can muster
On a sidenote, I am wondering whether halberds are really worth it, given how Hammerhand brings us to S6 and this wounds most enemy infantry on a 2+ already.
Sir Arun wrote: you forget that when they come in, all their ranged weapons get the twin-link
what's more, if they employ Deathwing Knights, they can pretty much 1-hit kill our NDKs
they have access to stormshields which will absorb the few deamonhammers we can muster
On a sidenote, I am wondering whether halberds are really worth it, given how Hammerhand brings us to S6 and this wounds most enemy infantry on a 2+ already.
Yes, but they're twin-linked stormbolters, so still not a ton of worry there. Plus we can easily twin-link as well with the addition of an IC to the squad taking prescience.
As to deathwing knights versus our NDK, yeah you're dead on. But really, who wants to be in cc with deathwing knights? Just shoot them a lot and wait for the ones. The NDK has the mobility to stay away from the Knights, however.
With halberds, my first game with the new codex showed that they are still useful. GK have too many psychic powers that are great to use, and not enough warp charges to necessarily cast them reliably. Sometimes a base strength of 5 will help save warp charges for something else, particularly when the cost of getting that extra strength is so minimal.
Sir Arun wrote: you forget that when they come in, all their ranged weapons get the twin-link
what's more, if they employ Deathwing Knights, they can pretty much 1-hit kill our NDKs
they have access to stormshields which will absorb the few deamonhammers we can muster
On a sidenote, I am wondering whether halberds are really worth it, given how Hammerhand brings us to S6 and this wounds most enemy infantry on a 2+ already.
Yes, but they're twin-linked stormbolters, so still not a ton of worry there. Plus we can easily twin-link as well with the addition of an IC to the squad taking prescience.
As to deathwing knights versus our NDK, yeah you're dead on. But really, who wants to be in cc with deathwing knights? Just shoot them a lot and wait for the ones. The NDK has the mobility to stay away from the Knights, however.
With halberds, my first game with the new codex showed that they are still useful. GK have too many psychic powers that are great to use, and not enough warp charges to necessarily cast them reliably. Sometimes a base strength of 5 will help save warp charges for something else, particularly when the cost of getting that extra strength is so minimal.
That twin linking stormbolters still makes a difference (not much, but it's there, the more 2+ saves you make me roll, the more I will fail), and that's not even counting the heavy weapons in the Deathwing squads.
Anyway, I definitely agree with the halberds. Taking them frees up warp charge dice for other things. I'm pretty much always taking a ML3 Librarian, rolling on the Divination chart, and I will nearly always want to cast every one of those powers.
RedFox wrote: Quick question: what would be the best loadout for my GK allies ?
1 x Librarian lvl 2
5 x Terminators in Land Raider Redeemer
1 x Nemesis dreadknight
I want to keep this cheap...around 700 pts
I was planning on giving the LR a multi-melta and running my dreadknight cheap (sword + incinerator) though I'm at a loss as to what to do with my Libby and termies, they'll obviously be riding my LR, but what loadout should I give them ? thanks.
It depends on what you want to use them for and what function they are going to have in your army.
Tannhauser42 wrote:
RedFox wrote: Quick question: what would be the best loadout for my GK allies ?
1 x Librarian lvl 2
5 x Terminators in Land Raider Redeemer
1 x Nemesis dreadknight
I want to keep this cheap...around 700 pts
I was planning on giving the LR a multi-melta and running my dreadknight cheap (sword + incinerator) though I'm at a loss as to what to do with my Libby and termies, they'll obviously be riding my LR, but what loadout should I give them ? thanks.
I'm not sure I would take the Land Raider Redeemer. For its points, you can add a personal teleporter to the Dreadknight, upgrade the librarian to level 3, and add more terminators.
Super Newb wrote:
RedFox wrote: Quick question: what would be the best loadout for my GK allies ?
1 x Librarian lvl 2
5 x Terminators in Land Raider Redeemer
1 x Nemesis dreadknight
I want to keep this cheap...around 700 pts
I was planning on giving the LR a multi-melta and running my dreadknight cheap (sword + incinerator) though I'm at a loss as to what to do with my Libby and termies, they'll obviously be riding my LR, but what loadout should I give them ? thanks.
It'd be much better if you ran a ML3 Libby, one 5 man unit of Terminators with a psycannon and a hammer (and maybe the rest halbreds) and TWO dreadknights with personal teleporters.
You can't do this as 'allies' but you can do it using the GK special detachment, the one that has bonuses to deep striking (let's you do the reserve roll on turn 1, let's them run and shoot). I think that would be a lot better than using a land raider...
Alright...I guess I can squeeze that 2nd LR in my BT army and use my GK allies as a deep strike force using the special formation
So if I'm teleporting one dreadknight, a libby plus 4 termies and 1 justicar...how should I equip them specifically ? don't forget I want to keep this cheap because I really want that 2nd LR and will have to save point to fit him in my 2000pts BT detachment
RedFox wrote: Quick question: what would be the best loadout for my GK allies ?
1 x Librarian lvl 2
5 x Terminators in Land Raider Redeemer
1 x Nemesis dreadknight
I want to keep this cheap...around 700 pts
I was planning on giving the LR a multi-melta and running my dreadknight cheap (sword + incinerator) though I'm at a loss as to what to do with my Libby and termies, they'll obviously be riding my LR, but what loadout should I give them ? thanks.
It depends on what you want to use them for and what function they are going to have in your army.
Tannhauser42 wrote:
RedFox wrote: Quick question: what would be the best loadout for my GK allies ?
1 x Librarian lvl 2
5 x Terminators in Land Raider Redeemer
1 x Nemesis dreadknight
I want to keep this cheap...around 700 pts
I was planning on giving the LR a multi-melta and running my dreadknight cheap (sword + incinerator) though I'm at a loss as to what to do with my Libby and termies, they'll obviously be riding my LR, but what loadout should I give them ? thanks.
I'm not sure I would take the Land Raider Redeemer. For its points, you can add a personal teleporter to the Dreadknight, upgrade the librarian to level 3, and add more terminators.
Super Newb wrote:
RedFox wrote: Quick question: what would be the best loadout for my GK allies ?
1 x Librarian lvl 2
5 x Terminators in Land Raider Redeemer
1 x Nemesis dreadknight
I want to keep this cheap...around 700 pts
I was planning on giving the LR a multi-melta and running my dreadknight cheap (sword + incinerator) though I'm at a loss as to what to do with my Libby and termies, they'll obviously be riding my LR, but what loadout should I give them ? thanks.
It'd be much better if you ran a ML3 Libby, one 5 man unit of Terminators with a psycannon and a hammer (and maybe the rest halbreds) and TWO dreadknights with personal teleporters.
You can't do this as 'allies' but you can do it using the GK special detachment, the one that has bonuses to deep striking (let's you do the reserve roll on turn 1, let's them run and shoot). I think that would be a lot better than using a land raider...
Alright...I guess I can squeeze that 2nd LR in my BT army and use my GK allies as a deep strike force using the special formation
So if I'm teleporting one dreadknight, a libby plus 4 termies and 1 justicar...how should I equip them specifically ? don't forget I want to keep this cheap because I really want that 2nd LR and will have to save point to fit him in my 2000pts BT detachment
This is my vote:
ML3 Libby
With termies I'd do 4 halberds and one hammer
NDK should have a teleporter with both Incinerator and Psycannon (makes him much more versatile)
If i'm remembering all my costs correctly off the top of my head that should cost you 528 points. You can always dump the incinerator or the psycannon depending on the role you're planning for the dreadknight, and maybe add a sword if you're expecting Monstrous Creatures.
I played my game last night and was easily the juggernaut of the 2v2 game, granted I got very lucky. It was GK and Chaos (I know I know, heresy) vs Tau and Black Templar.
I had
GM with psycannon and soul glaive. I rolled a 6 for warlord trait so he ended up with Sanctuary, misfortune, and prescience. When all three were activated, they absolutely destroyed everything.
Libby with Liber and ML3, storm bolter. He had invisibility, psychic shriek, gate of infinity, and molten beam.
Techmarine with cuirass of sacrifice
3 man paladin squad and apothecary with one hammer and two halberds
One 5-man terminator squad with one psycannon, 2 halberds, two swords, one hammer
One 5-man purifier squad with two incinerators, one halberd, two swords
One 5-man interceptor squad- one incinerator, two halberds, three swords.
I lost the interceptor to mass tau fire, lost three terminators to a LotD, and one purifier to a LotD. My paladins were extremely durable especially with Sanctuary on (my GM rolled with them). I lost a total of 1 wound with them.They were challenged by a black templar brotherhood champion and squad of marines/scouts. They had no chance.
Most useless character: the techmarine hands down. I should have tabled him and added in two more paladins. 1 wound is too fragile to make a big difference despite his armor. This is my third time fielding him and the third time he has died before doing anything.
The incinerators made back the biggest amount of points. I completely wiped out three squads of tau (1 FW, 1 PF, and 1 drone squad). Psychic shriek failed 2/3 times but the one time it worked took out a whole tac squad of templars.
Really though, those paladins took everything from a broadside, crisis unit, and commander. a 4++ with Sanctuary and FNP is great, and the GM's 3++ with sanctuary is also fantastic. Without misfortune I would have had trouble taking out AP2 targets though.
The inerceptors worked well as disruption units, nothing special. The purifiers were great at setting everything on fire. Especially with the libby attached and using gate of infinity: warp--> cleansing flame --> 2 incinerators. Invisibility was a huge plus too.
The terminator squad failed all f the DS rolls and didn't come in til turn 4. I raised a question, I thought the rule states after two failures you come in automatically on your third try. Because GK can DS from turn 1 I argued I shouldn't have to wait til turn 4. After they landed the LotD had some choice words for them...
The new codex's rule to DS in turn one also made a huge difference as I was able to land and start soaking up fire/killing everything with the paladin super squad.
Envihon wrote: I have seen the power of Sanctuary when AP 2 weaponry is around especially if you have someone like Draigo around to get a 2++ to tank everything for you (I had a Dreadknight within 12" of Draigos squad to cast Sanctuary).
You can't target Sanctuary and it only affects models in the same unit as the caster, so only the Dreadknight would have the improved invulnerable save in this case. The 12" range is only for making Daemons treat it as dangerous terrain.
What is the thinking behind cuirass on the techmarine? Iwnd is wasted, seems expensive for fnp on one model. Did techmarines get much better / cheaper?
Yeah, I did think about IWND being wasted but the way I saw it 15 points granted me an invulnerable save, FNP, and DS abilities.
As far as whether or not the techmarine can take the cuirass, I looked through the codex for a while and there was no restriction.
But after trying out this combo and having my techmarine die immediately three times...I think I'll give it to my GM or libby next time. The techmarine has the potential to be an awesome sniper with the conversion beamer or a proper can opener with the harness and axe or halberd but he just never lives long enough to be useful.
Any suggestions? Next time I play he is not going to use the cuirass, I will sit his ass in the back of the board and fortify something, sit and snipe with the beamer. Next time I play I think it will be 1v1 against black templars so I don't foresee too much trouble, except for two dev squads.
Note: I would like my next unit to be a dreadknight so I'm working on that tip, haha.
Techmarines are more useful for vanilla SM armies who have a LR, Predator and Whirlwind operating in the back and maybe a squad of Devastators or Centurions who need to keep shooting from a fortified building.
GK is a very aggressive cc army that only softens up targets in shooting while it closes in.
Techmarines are out of place here, unless you take them as passengers in Stormravens and LRs purely to keep them restoring HPs
Sixcyl wrote: Yeah, I did think about IWND being wasted but the way I saw it 15 points granted me an invulnerable save, FNP, and DS abilities.
As far as whether or not the techmarine can take the cuirass, I looked through the codex for a while and there was no restriction.
But after trying out this combo and having my techmarine die immediately three times...I think I'll give it to my GM or libby next time. The techmarine has the potential to be an awesome sniper with the conversion beamer or a proper can opener with the harness and axe or halberd but he just never lives long enough to be useful.
Any suggestions? Next time I play he is not going to use the cuirass, I will sit his ass in the back of the board and fortify something, sit and snipe with the beamer. Next time I play I think it will be 1v1 against black templars so I don't foresee too much trouble, except for two dev squads.
Note: I would like my next unit to be a dreadknight so I'm working on that tip, haha.
The Relic itself says it replaces terminator armor, the model has to have terminator army base in the first place to take the relic. So only Captains/GMs/Librarians can take it.
The Relic itself says it replaces terminator armor, the model has to have terminator army base in the first place to take the relic. So only Captains/GMs/Librarians can take it.
I thought about that! I even asked my friends and showed them the part that says the techmarine may take any relic. We all agreed it was an exception that the techmarine could take it. But I see your point. I'll bring this up again with my friends. As long as we all agree I say it's all good. But thank you for the clarification.
Sir Arun wrote: Techmarines are out of place here, unless you take them as passengers in Stormravens and LRs purely to keep them restoring HPs
^This
Yep. This is what I've learned. Especially now that a vindicaire has a 72" reach, the vindicaire is a much better sniper. I lose the battle formation if I take on an assassin right? But yes, overall, the techmarine is a bit of waste and is much better spent on a paladin or two. Other than that , I played the GK the way they were supposed to. I avoided getting shot at most of the time by staying locked in combat. By locked I mean destroying anything unlucky enough to get into melee, including a Black Templar champion.
By locked I mean destroying anything unlucky enough to get into melee, including a Black Templar champion.
It was actually my black templar champion that was in that melee, and yeah, he did crush it. I actually didn't realise they were all in termi armor with fnp when I issued the challenge. But that was due partly to working a 10 hour day and being up for 20 hours when we were playing haha.
The Relic itself says it replaces terminator armor, the model has to have terminator army base in the first place to take the relic. So only Captains/GMs/Librarians can take it.
After an extensive talk about it tonight, I agree with this. The problem our group is having is that it says he can take any relic in that list, so the argument is this, taken right out of our groups conversation "yeah but the thing is if that was truly a restriction it would probably say "can only be taken by characters with terminator armor".
to which my counter argument is that it's implicitly saying you cant.
Redemption wrote: I believe that in that army builder in the e-codex the Cuirass was greyed out for Techmarines. Same for the storm bolter relic for the Librarian.
Now THIS is important. Because I used the logic of being able to give the libby the fury as being able to give the techmarine the cuirass. And the battlescribe app was ok with it. But the ebook would of course be the higher authority here. Because I figured the fury could be given to the libby and it had the same sub-rule as the cuirass, I thought it was ok to give the cuirass to the techmarine.
So now here's a question, if you upgrade the libby to the storm bolter you could then give him the fury of deimos yes?
Anpu42 wrote: I think it is a waste of points on a W1 model.
I still don't understand why you would want to in the first place.
IWND is a waste on the techmarine, but for one that is melee oriented the cuirass gave him an invul save, FNP, and the ability to deep strike along with some terminators. He was of course immediately gunned down by a fusion blaster....but he was potentially useful. At this point I'm just going to give him the conversion beamer and sit him in the back with bolstered defenses.
I wish! Sub-rule 4 of the war gear list then goes on to EXPLICITLY state that the dozer may not be used by any kind of LR. Why not do the same with the cuirass and the fury of deimos?
Redemption wrote: I believe that in that army builder in the e-codex the Cuirass was greyed out for Techmarines. Same for the storm bolter relic for the Librarian.
Now THIS is important. Because I used the logic of being able to give the libby the fury as being able to give the techmarine the cuirass. And the battlescribe app was ok with it. But the ebook would of course be the higher authority here. Because I figured the fury could be given to the libby and it had the same sub-rule as the cuirass, I thought it was ok to give the cuirass to the techmarine.
So now here's a question, if you upgrade the libby to the storm bolter you could then give him the fury of deimos yes?
Redemption wrote: I believe that in that army builder in the e-codex the Cuirass was greyed out for Techmarines. Same for the storm bolter relic for the Librarian.
Now THIS is important. Because I used the logic of being able to give the libby the fury as being able to give the techmarine the cuirass. And the battlescribe app was ok with it. But the ebook would of course be the higher authority here. Because I figured the fury could be given to the libby and it had the same sub-rule as the cuirass, I thought it was ok to give the cuirass to the techmarine.
So now here's a question, if you upgrade the libby to the storm bolter you could then give him the fury of deimos yes?
I'd say yes
Ok fair enough. Not sure that I would of course, but for science's sake. A libby is better off with the liber for some sweet powers.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Yep. This is what I've learned. Especially now that a vindicaire has a 72" reach, the vindicaire is a much better sniper. I lose the battle formation if I take on an assassin right?
Nope, the assassin is just another detachment; as long as you still meet the requirements of the GK formation you can take it, you'll just be running 2 dets instead of one (just like running a CAD and an allied).
I personally am still not sold on the unique formations, at the points level I'm usually playing at (1850-2000) that 3rd dreadknight is really too good to pass up.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Yep. This is what I've learned. Especially now that a vindicaire has a 72" reach, the vindicaire is a much better sniper. I lose the battle formation if I take on an assassin right?
Nope, the assassin is just another detachment; as long as you still meet the requirements of the GK formation you can take it, you'll just be running 2 dets instead of one (just like running a CAD and an allied).
I personally am still not sold on the unique formations, at the points level I'm usually playing at (1850-2000) that 3rd dreadknight is really too good to pass up.
I am having a hard time looking past stern for allies, just that guranated sanctuary is so clutch. In addition his AOE banishment could really put the hurt on daemon lists.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Yep. This is what I've learned. Especially now that a vindicaire has a 72" reach, the vindicaire is a much better sniper. I lose the battle formation if I take on an assassin right?
Nope, the assassin is just another detachment; as long as you still meet the requirements of the GK formation you can take it, you'll just be running 2 dets instead of one (just like running a CAD and an allied).
I personally am still not sold on the unique formations, at the points level I'm usually playing at (1850-2000) that 3rd dreadknight is really too good to pass up.
the formation is gonna depend on what your running.
I mean if you're running say a dreadknight/interceptor shunt punch list you're proably gonna wanna just go with a CAD. if you wanna run a GK termy list however it's great
Librarian should definitely have the option to take the Fury of Deimos Stormbolter relic, but only if you pay the initial 5 pts to give him a stormbolter in the first place.
But there's no way to give the techmarine some terminator armor to replace with the curaiss, so that one is a no-go.
Fachxphyre wrote: Librarian should definitely have the option to take the Fury of Deimos Stormbolter relic, but only if you pay the initial 5 pts to give him a stormbolter in the first place.
Yeah he can. Although why you'd wanna do it is beyond me...if he shoots with it, he cannot cast shooting psychic powers
Fachxphyre wrote: Librarian should definitely have the option to take the Fury of Deimos Stormbolter relic, but only if you pay the initial 5 pts to give him a stormbolter in the first place.
Yeah he can. Although why you'd wanna do it is beyond me...if he shoots with it, he cannot cast shooting psychic powers
Where does it say that?
I have not been able to find that rule.
Fachxphyre wrote: Librarian should definitely have the option to take the Fury of Deimos Stormbolter relic, but only if you pay the initial 5 pts to give him a stormbolter in the first place.
Yeah he can. Although why you'd wanna do it is beyond me...if he shoots with it, he cannot cast shooting psychic powers
Fachxphyre wrote: Librarian should definitely have the option to take the Fury of Deimos Stormbolter relic, but only if you pay the initial 5 pts to give him a stormbolter in the first place.
Yeah he can. Although why you'd wanna do it is beyond me...if he shoots with it, he cannot cast shooting psychic powers
Uh what? You know thats completely wrong right?
Are you referring to the part of my comment about him getting the relic or the part where I mentioned the psychic powers shooting? If its the latter, youre probably right and it must have been a leftover in my brain from 6th.
Fachxphyre wrote: Librarian should definitely have the option to take the Fury of Deimos Stormbolter relic, but only if you pay the initial 5 pts to give him a stormbolter in the first place.
Yeah he can. Although why you'd wanna do it is beyond me...if he shoots with it, he cannot cast shooting psychic powers
Uh what? You know thats completely wrong right?
Are you referring to the part of my comment about him getting the relic or the part where I mentioned the psychic powers shooting? If its the latter, youre probably right and it must have been a leftover in my brain from 6th.
The shooting psychic stuff. Was true in 6th yes, in 7th they're separate phases, and you can do both
Ok, I think I may just have found the cheapest way possible to incorporate droppods into the GK army (and I don't think I'd even need to buy extra models).
Champions of Fenris has the Company of the great Wolf detachment. Mandatory are 1 HQ and 2 elites. Optionals are 3FA. Only restriction is that all models need to be from the Space Wolves Faction.
Reading through codex: SW, it would seem that a single servitor is a valid choice for an elite slot (as long as you don't take an iron priest, they use up a FoC slot).
So for a mere 20 points, you can get 2 servitors to get your minimum requirements. For HQ, I was thinking of running a rune priest or a wolf guard battle leader, (represented by a PA inquisitor).
So through this special detachment, your investment in SW would be a mere 70 or 80 points (depending on which you value more) and it would unlock 3 Drop pods for some shenanigans with purifiers in combat squads!
Elmir wrote: Ok, I think I may just have found the cheapest way possible to incorporate droppods into the GK army (and I don't think I'd even need to buy extra models).
Champions of Fenris has the Company of the great Wolf detachment. Mandatory are 1 HQ and 2 elites. Optionals are 3FA. Only restriction is that all models need to be from the Space Wolves Faction.
Reading through codex: SW, it would seem that a single servitor is a valid choice for an elite slot (as long as you don't take an iron priest, they use up a FoC slot).
So for a mere 20 points, you can get 2 servitors to get your minimum requirements. For HQ, I was thinking of running a rune priest or a wolf guard battle leader, (represented by a PA inquisitor).
So through this special detachment, your investment in SW would be a mere 70 or 80 points (depending on which you value more) and it would unlock 3 Drop pods for some shenanigans with purifiers in combat squads!
This is actually a good idea to make GK more flexible.
Three small Purifier units with two special weapons and one daemon hammer each is a decent choice.
Cleasing flame is a bonus on top.
Another idea I was toying around with, was to just get 2 "normal" dreadnoughts via the SW list in. Still with dual TL Autocannons though. Through that codex, they clock in at only 115p, rather than the ridiculously overprices gak @145 we pay.
So a rought draft:
Detachment 1: Company of the great Wolf
HQ: Rune priest @60p
Eltes: 2x dakka dread @230p
FA: 3x Drop pods @105p
ADL + comms relay €70p
Detachment 2: Nemesis strike force
HQ: Lvl 3 libby @135
5 strike squad marines (for 1 droppod) with incinerator €115p
Elites: 2 10 man purifier squads with special special weapons of your choice @550p (combat squad them for loads of dice, and more cleansing flames).
HS: 2 NDK with PT, Sword, HPC @410
This would be around 1675p. It's a bit low on psycannons, but getting 2 dakka dread might help a bit with that.
Well, its an interesting list.
Indeed, the GK Dreads are a bit overpriced and misconcepted (with sanctuary).
However, I'd drop the ADL with comms relay since you just roll for a single Pod in round 2.
It seems that a lot of people are looking at the synergy that is gained from combining Space Wolves and Grey Knights and I really like the lists coming out but I am trying something else. I like getting a hold of that lack of anti-armor inherent to the Grey Knights so I have taken regular Space Marines with Imperial Fist Chapter tactics with Drop Pods and Centurions which works beautifully with the Grey Knights.
Leth wrote: As nice as they are, for the points the cents are not worth it.
Which sucks because I have them modeled up....
I think if you are going imperial fists, the devs are much better.
My only problem with going a straight Devastator Squad vs. Devastator Centurions is that the Devastator squads can be easily wiped by S8 AP3 weaponry, not so much for my Centurions. My Centurions are kitted out with TL Lascannons and Missile Launchers. They make short work of armor and they have a Librarian protecting them.
Leth wrote: As nice as they are, for the points the cents are not worth it.
Which sucks because I have them modeled up....
I think if you are going imperial fists, the devs are much better.
My only problem with going a straight Devastator Squad vs. Devastator Centurions is that the Devastator squads can be easily wiped by S8 AP3 weaponry, not so much for my Centurions. My Centurions are kitted out with TL Lascannons and Missile Launchers. They make short work of armor and they have a Librarian protecting them.
O I agree but at that point you are looking at a 500 point unit. You could get 12 tank hunting lascannons in 3 devastator squads for that number of points and have points to spare.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, its an interesting list.
Indeed, the GK Dreads are a bit overpriced and misconcepted (with sanctuary).
I think paying 30 more points to get:
- the ability to re-roll 1s on DtW rolls
- an additional psychic dice and 50% chance to get either
- a 6+ invulnerable save
- or reduce ...say... a C'tan Shard's inv. to 5++ or a nova-charged Riptide's inv. to 4++ just before your NDK charges in
is fairly good. Also remember that you perils only on 2 sixes or more.
Leth wrote: As nice as they are, for the points the cents are not worth it.
Which sucks because I have them modeled up....
I think if you are going imperial fists, the devs are much better.
My only problem with going a straight Devastator Squad vs. Devastator Centurions is that the Devastator squads can be easily wiped by S8 AP3 weaponry, not so much for my Centurions. My Centurions are kitted out with TL Lascannons and Missile Launchers. They make short work of armor and they have a Librarian protecting them.
O I agree but at that point you are looking at a 500 point unit. You could get 12 tank hunting lascannons in 3 devastator squads for that number of points and have points to spare.
How when only up to 4 per squad can take Heavy Weapons so if you take 10, 6 of them would be without heavy weapons which means you would need to take 3 separate squads which I don't think that fits into the Allied Detachment Force Org chart. Regardless, my Centurion Devastators cost 280 with 3 TL Lascannons and 3 Missle Launchers. The 3 Dev Squads with those 12 Lascannons would be 450 points so at that point my Centurion Devastators are cheaper. Heck, the 2 Devastator Squads are 300 points outfitted with all Lascannons. So you would get 8 shots with no TL and easily skilled while I get 6 shots with 3 of them twin linked 2W per model and a T5. Kind of liking my Centurions right now.
I was including the librarian in your unit cost 280 with split fire and about 100 for the librarian, your right it is 400 ish.
I was doing my math wrong, but i have just found them to be ind of lackluster for the points. With all the cover saves out there the number of shots without ignore cover is just meh.
Leth wrote: I was including the librarian in your unit cost 280 with split fire and about 100 for the librarian, your right it is 400 ish.
I was doing my math wrong, but i have just found them to be ind of lackluster for the points. With all the cover saves out there the number of shots without ignore cover is just meh.
My line up is this for 565 Points Imperial Fist Allied Detachment to my Grey Knights:
Librarian, ML 2
10 Tactical Squad, Meltagun, Combi-Melta (Sometime I wish I would of went Plasma but I was looking for anti-armor)
Drop Pod
Usually I have the Librarian stay with the Centurions to protect them with various powers through Telepathy. They are usually in cover so Shroud helps if I don't get Invisibility. Honestly, my Centurions make a lot of their saves and are really hard to kill and usually, they are so wrapped up with my GK that they largely ignore all the Lascannon shots and missile launchers that just rip their armor apart. I am actually looking to make a Bikestar Command Squad formation for this detachment to make it a little more scary than it already is.
Super Newb wrote: Hmm, I thought the Grav Centurions were the beefier choice. You like Lascannons and missiles better?
GK are great at taking out what you would take Grav weaponry for. The Psybolts hurt us a bit in that regard but they are still effective at taking out high armor targets especially Terminators equipped with Psycannons. What GK lack is Anti-armor and Grav doesn't do much to armor and it has limited range. I needed something to punch through armor and luckily my favorite Space Marine Chapter, the Imperial Fists, have a Chapter Tactic that is great at doing just that because they get Tank Hunter on all of their Devastator Squads that includes Centurion Devastators as well. With Grav Cannons you don't benefit from that Chapter Tactic so with that and the lack of range, I went with TL Lascannon and Missile Launchers. With the better range and Tank Hunter, my Centurions fill that anti-armor gap wonderfully.
Super Newb wrote: Makes a damn lot of sense. Thanks for the explanation...
I find that a lot of people underestimate the Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics. They may not be as good as the White Scars or the Iron Hands for an army by themselves but as an ally in need of something to blow up vehicles, they are great. Plus Bolter Drills help to make that troop choice you have to take better as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also Grav Centurions are good but only at the job they were made for.
Super Newb wrote: Hmm, I thought the Grav Centurions were the beefier choice. You like Lascannons and missiles better?
GK are great at taking out what you would take Grav weaponry for. The Psybolts hurt us a bit in that regard but they are still effective at taking out high armor targets especially Terminators equipped with Psycannons. What GK lack is Anti-armor and Grav doesn't do much to armor and it has limited range. I needed something to punch through armor and luckily my favorite Space Marine Chapter, the Imperial Fists, have a Chapter Tactic that is great at doing just that because they get Tank Hunter on all of their Devastator Squads that includes Centurion Devastators as well. With Grav Cannons you don't benefit from that Chapter Tactic so with that and the lack of range, I went with TL Lascannon and Missile Launchers. With the better range and Tank Hunter, my Centurions fill that anti-armor gap wonderfully.
Well, lascannons and missile launchers are quite ineffective these days.
Cover is almost everywhere. With Jink flyers and whatnot are quite save from ranged shooting.
I'd take Grav Centurions all day.
Super Newb wrote: Hmm, I thought the Grav Centurions were the beefier choice. You like Lascannons and missiles better?
GK are great at taking out what you would take Grav weaponry for. The Psybolts hurt us a bit in that regard but they are still effective at taking out high armor targets especially Terminators equipped with Psycannons. What GK lack is Anti-armor and Grav doesn't do much to armor and it has limited range. I needed something to punch through armor and luckily my favorite Space Marine Chapter, the Imperial Fists, have a Chapter Tactic that is great at doing just that because they get Tank Hunter on all of their Devastator Squads that includes Centurion Devastators as well. With Grav Cannons you don't benefit from that Chapter Tactic so with that and the lack of range, I went with TL Lascannon and Missile Launchers. With the better range and Tank Hunter, my Centurions fill that anti-armor gap wonderfully.
Well, lascannons and missile launchers are quite ineffective these days.
Cover is almost everywhere. With Jink flyers and whatnot are quite save from ranged shooting.
I'd take Grav Centurions all day.
That is my point as well, Grav Cents still won't do any better than the Lascannons and Missile Launchers unless they are given Prescience from a Librarian. Then you have more shots hitting but still Grav Guns can only hurt a vehicle on 6s and then you are only taking off hull points and immobilizing them. My TLLC/ML Cents have exploded vehicles with all the anti-armor fired and that is with Tank Hunter which I get to re-roll failed Penetrating shots. I can see why other Chapters would take just Grav Cents but for Imperial Fists, you get a highly effective unit for a cheaper price than it's 2 5-man Devastator squad equivalent. They do their job beautifully and have saved my GK from getting terrorized by pure mech armies. I pop them open and my GK take care of the rest.
Also, I plan on adding a Command Bike Squad with Grav here in a little while so I wouldn't want two units devoted to Grav.
MaxT wrote: Grav is affected by Cover just like Lascannons/missile launchers are tho, so not sure of your point?
Well, grav guns have a shorter range. So your unit will be closer to the enemy, withing 24''.
At this range, your unit could be able to maneuver around cover if necessary.
Elmir wrote: Ok, I think I may just have found the cheapest way possible to incorporate droppods into the GK army (and I don't think I'd even need to buy extra models).
Champions of Fenris has the Company of the great Wolf detachment. Mandatory are 1 HQ and 2 elites. Optionals are 3FA. Only restriction is that all models need to be from the Space Wolves Faction.
Reading through codex: SW, it would seem that a single servitor is a valid choice for an elite slot (as long as you don't take an iron priest, they use up a FoC slot).
So for a mere 20 points, you can get 2 servitors to get your minimum requirements. For HQ, I was thinking of running a rune priest or a wolf guard battle leader, (represented by a PA inquisitor).
So through this special detachment, your investment in SW would be a mere 70 or 80 points (depending on which you value more) and it would unlock 3 Drop pods for some shenanigans with purifiers in combat squads!
For the for the first time since the new Codex has dropped I am forced to reconsider my writing off of Purifiers in my 1500 point army. Nice post and good idea.
MaxT wrote: Grav is affected by Cover just like Lascannons/missile launchers are tho, so not sure of your point?
Well, grav guns have a shorter range. So your unit will be closer to the enemy, withing 24''.
At this range, your unit could be able to maneuver around cover if necessary.
They also tend to be slow without Gate of Infinity or a Land Raider to cart them around. I get what you are saying but I still wouldn't take Grav Cents for dealing with vehicles even with Prescience and the Grav amp, that would be a waste of grav imo.
I will take 5 shots over two any day lol for 10 fewer points to boot.
Also although you are right you can get explodes, it only takes 2 6s to kill most vehicles with grav, and even one result gets the second best result on the pen table against a lot of vehicles(immobilized).
In addition the biggest offender doesnt really care about your pens because they just downgrade it. But they sure as sure care about immobilized.
1 Dreadknight with Greatsword, H. Incinerator, PT
1 Dreadknight with Greatsword, H. Incinerator, PT
1 Allied Knight Errant
2 Librarians together is fantastic. I rolled 6 for warlord trait so my warlord had 5 rolls on Sanctic. The other Librarian picked up Invisibility and Prescious. Attached to the Terminators they Deep Struck turn 1, casted invisibility, and became a beatstick the rest of the game with 4 Hammers and lots of Strength 7 attacks. They took out the Knight Paladin in melee and a few squads of Grey Hunters.
Leth wrote: I will take 5 shots over two any day lol for 10 fewer points to boot.
Also although you are right you can get explodes, it only takes 2 6s to kill most vehicles with grav, and even one result gets the second best result on the pen table against a lot of vehicles(immobilized).
In addition the biggest offender doesnt really care about your pens because they just downgrade it. But they sure as sure care about immobilized.
I still feel that Grav Weapons are a bit more geared towards taking on 2+ and 3+ armor. Also their short range bothers me a great deal, you almost have to get them up close and you have to have them start on the front line if you are wanting to get any shots in the first couple of turns. This leaves them exposed without a delivery system and Centurions definite will be a target your opponent would need to worry about. They are good but not invincible. A couple of AP2 shots and they are done especially without an Invul save.
Grav Centurions are a good, versatile unit that can do things and you are right, they can 2 shot a vehicle with double 6s. Honestly, I see a give and take here for a unit that for me is taken specifically for hunting vehicles. You have a unit that is shorter range, higher risk but more shots to get something and remove the vehicle or 3 TL shots with re-roll Pen and 3 shots with re-roll Pen. Either way you look at it, both are not completely sure fire and the dice can still screw you. If you take a Librarian with them, Prescience isn't what it used to be with being two warp charges it doesn't go off as much and risks Perils but Invisibility is the same way.
My main point is this, if I took Centurions just to have Centurions, I would of went with the Grav Centurions because of how beastly they are. Taking Grav Cents for the sole reason to go after vehicles seems like bad tactics to me. To me, my play experience is that my TLLC/ML Centurions do just fine to fill the anti-armor gap in my army. When building them, I heard a lot of mixed reviews as well, I wanted to magnetize them but screwed up and went this set up instead. I needed a unit that sits in the back field providing heavy fire because I have plenty of 24" ranged weaponry getting in the face my enemy like my GK and my Imperial Knight. It also gives me a unit that can sit on back field objectives and still be useful. You need to walk Grav Cents around if they aren't in range. They are effective at what they do, but for what I need them to do, this set up is definitely worth it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Zimko wrote: Here's a list I'm running atm that has seen success so far against Space Wolves with a Knight Paladin ally.
Nemesis Strikeforce detachment
1 Librarian with ML3, Hammer, Stormbolter, Relic(the psychic power one)
1 Librarian with ML3, Hammer, Stormbolter
1 Dreadknight with Greatsword, H. Incinerator, PT
1 Dreadknight with Greatsword, H. Incinerator, PT
1 Allied Knight Errant
2 Librarians together is fantastic. I rolled 6 for warlord trait so my warlord had 5 rolls on Sanctic. The other Librarian picked up Invisibility and Prescious. Attached to the Terminators they Deep Struck turn 1, casted invisibility, and became a beatstick the rest of the game with 4 Hammers and lots of Strength 7 attacks. They took out the Knight Paladin in melee and a few squads of Grey Hunters.
I really like the style of this list because it was sort of how I wanted to run a list with a Knight Errant. The set up for Librarians is nice as well, I want to do the same thing. Have one Librarian with the book roll on nothing but Sanctic and the other rolls on Telepathy looking for that Invisibility to make a super squad in the backfield. I put Psycannons on my Dreadknights but are you finding that they really aren't needed? I see it as a luxury item but damn if it isn't effective.
I really like the style of this list because it was sort of how I wanted to run a list with a Knight Errant. The set up for Librarians is nice as well, I want to do the same thing. Have one Librarian with the book roll on nothing but Sanctic and the other rolls on Telepathy looking for that Invisibility to make a super squad in the backfield. I put Psycannons on my Dreadknights but are you finding that they really aren't needed? I see it as a luxury item but damn if it isn't effective.
I would really like to put Psycannons on the Dreadknights but I can't find the points yet. I could run 5 purifiers with only 1 hammer. That would give me enough points to try a Dreadknight with both weapons. But is it needed? I don't think so. I will only get about 2 turns of shooting with it before the Dreadknight is either dead or in assault.
1 Dreadknight w/ GS, PT, HI 190
1 Dreadknight w/ GS, PT, HI 190
That's 1771 points.
Despite being Salvo, with the NDK detachment rule (run and shoot) and drop pods, the Purifiers should reliably be able to shoot with 8 Psycannons on first turn. Using combat squads that will also be 4 units of Purifiers on the board with 8 warp charges for a couple Cleansing Flames. I'd put the 4 psycannons in each squad together in 1 combat squad so they can not move turn 2 and fire full salvo while the other unit with 2 hammers goes nuts in melee.
I really like the style of this list because it was sort of how I wanted to run a list with a Knight Errant. The set up for Librarians is nice as well, I want to do the same thing. Have one Librarian with the book roll on nothing but Sanctic and the other rolls on Telepathy looking for that Invisibility to make a super squad in the backfield. I put Psycannons on my Dreadknights but are you finding that they really aren't needed? I see it as a luxury item but damn if it isn't effective.
I would really like to put Psycannons on the Dreadknights but I can't find the points yet. I could run 5 purifiers with only 1 hammer. That would give me enough points to try a Dreadknight with both weapons. But is it needed? I don't think so. I will only get about 2 turns of shooting with it before the Dreadknight is either dead or in assault.
I really like the style of this list because it was sort of how I wanted to run a list with a Knight Errant. The set up for Librarians is nice as well, I want to do the same thing. Have one Librarian with the book roll on nothing but Sanctic and the other rolls on Telepathy looking for that Invisibility to make a super squad in the backfield. I put Psycannons on my Dreadknights but are you finding that they really aren't needed? I see it as a luxury item but damn if it isn't effective.
I would really like to put Psycannons on the Dreadknights but I can't find the points yet. I could run 5 purifiers with only 1 hammer. That would give me enough points to try a Dreadknight with both weapons. But is it needed? I don't think so. I will only get about 2 turns of shooting with it before the Dreadknight is either dead or in assault.
Two turns of shooting is 12 S7 shots with rending
Yeah and I like to run two fully kitted Dreadknights so that would be 24 S7 shots with Rending. I think the way that we used to run DKs is fine but if you have the points to throw those Psycannons on, they are absolutely beastly. It's a hard decision. I run my list similarly, except I have one Librarian and I fit a squad of Interceptors in there instead of Purifiers. If I ran the second Libby, it would eliminate that second squad unfortunately. I like the fact that a Libby can get most of the Sanctic powers with the book and if you roll on the Warlord table they get 5 which makes Sanctuary almost assured that you will get it but 140 points on one model to for the 50% chance of getting Invisibility just is bothering me for some reason. I used to go for Telepathy no matter what but this new codex makes the Librarian such a beast with Sanctic that it makes it more desirable than the high risk of throwing it at Telepathy because for a Librarian going with Terminators, the only things that are worth it are Psychic Shriek and Invisibility while Sanctic has Sanctuary and Cleansing Flame. Which is really better?
Envihon wrote: To me, my play experience is that my TLLC/ML Centurions do just fine to fill the anti-armor gap in my army. When building them, I heard a lot of mixed reviews as well, I wanted to magnetize them but screwed up and went this set up instead. I needed a unit that sits in the back field providing heavy fire because I have plenty of 24" ranged weaponry getting in the face my enemy like my GK and my Imperial Knight. It also gives me a unit that can sit on back field objectives and still be useful. You need to walk Grav Cents around if they aren't in range. They are effective at what they do, but for what I need them to do, this set up is definitely worth it.
Dude I totally feel you, I think they are good(I have a dedicated unit myself) but I come at things from a tournament standpoint recently so that is where I focus, thinking about the units I am going to encounter.
Also I sniped a storm raven with a unit of grav cents(without skyfire) it was pretty awesome, he failed his crash and burn.
The second Librarian has been very useful for getting Prescience. The biggest problem my terminators have is they tend to miss. Then I'll throw 2 rolls in Telepathy to try and get Invis. If not then at least he'll have Shriek and maybe something else useful.
Envihon wrote: To me, my play experience is that my TLLC/ML Centurions do just fine to fill the anti-armor gap in my army. When building them, I heard a lot of mixed reviews as well, I wanted to magnetize them but screwed up and went this set up instead. I needed a unit that sits in the back field providing heavy fire because I have plenty of 24" ranged weaponry getting in the face my enemy like my GK and my Imperial Knight. It also gives me a unit that can sit on back field objectives and still be useful. You need to walk Grav Cents around if they aren't in range. They are effective at what they do, but for what I need them to do, this set up is definitely worth it.
Dude I totally feel you, I think they are good(I have a dedicated unit myself) but I come at things from a tournament standpoint recently so that is where I focus, thinking about the units I am going to encounter.
Also I sniped a storm raven with a unit of grav cents(without skyfire) it was pretty awesome, he failed his crash and burn.
I probably would be pretty proud of my Grav Cents in that respect as well then. Yeah, I don't play heavy tournament scenes and my gaming group likes fairly fluffy armies. The other reason is that I will be getting a Bikestar with grav guns although, they might not be as effective as Grav Cents for shooting down aircraft but could you imagine getting skyfire from an objective with that? That Immobilized threat plus 15 shots...it is likely for one 6 to pop up and that flyer is done. Yeah I definitely can see that. I have been meaning to buy another set of Cents too. I really like the model so buying a second squad is no problem for me haha.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Zimko wrote: The second Librarian has been very useful for getting Prescience. The biggest problem my terminators have is they tend to miss. Then I'll throw 2 rolls in Telepathy to try and get Invis. If not then at least he'll have Shriek and maybe something else useful.
My worry is not my Terminators missing shots but them getting blown to bits from AP2 weaponry and protecting them from that.
Heavy Support
Dev centurions x3 (3x grav/amp, 3xhurricane)
Won both games, first one was against a fluffy dark angel army. Guy had a lascannon razor back with a 5 man tac squad, Landraider crusader with 5 assault termies, Stormtalon, 10 man marines in a drop pod, land speeder
My terms and my interceptors died, but the dreadknights and centurions were enough to finish him off and interceptors were hopping around grabbing maelstrom objectives
2nd game was against another GK cent star, he had 6 centurions though, 3 terminator squads, thunderfire cannon and scouts
Game pretty much went down to whoever failed powers first. I was able to deny a casting of his invisbility and my cent star wiped his out.
Liber is must have for a cent star on a hq, as rerolling failed gate rolls of 1's is great insurance.
I like this list, but my interceptors got wiped out hard, might switch them out for something else
1 Dreadknight w/ GS, PT, HI 190
1 Dreadknight w/ GS, PT, HI 190
That's 1771 points.
Despite being Salvo, with the NDK detachment rule (run and shoot) and drop pods, the Purifiers should reliably be able to shoot with 8 Psycannons on first turn. Using combat squads that will also be 4 units of Purifiers on the board with 8 warp charges for a couple Cleansing Flames. I'd put the 4 psycannons in each squad together in 1 combat squad so they can not move turn 2 and fire full salvo while the other unit with 2 hammers goes nuts in melee.
Looks good. At 1771, I'd consider going for a rune priest over a wolfguard battle leader though... they add an extra dice after all (and if you get really lucky, can get another cheap nova on the tempestas table.
Psycannons definitely can be fun on the purifier. Some incinerators might be cool too (although you can get quite a bit of anti-horde off with some cleansing flame. You got 14 WCs on your first turn reliably... (Can be 15 if you get the rune priest) with a D6. So 4 attempts at cleansing flame is possible, but you'll not get sactuary off reliably on the NDKs then... Choices...
Elmir wrote: Ok, I think I may just have found the cheapest way possible to incorporate droppods into the GK army (and I don't think I'd even need to buy extra models).
Champions of Fenris has the Company of the great Wolf detachment. Mandatory are 1 HQ and 2 elites. Optionals are 3FA. Only restriction is that all models need to be from the Space Wolves Faction.
Reading through codex: SW, it would seem that a single servitor is a valid choice for an elite slot (as long as you don't take an iron priest, they use up a FoC slot).
So for a mere 20 points, you can get 2 servitors to get your minimum requirements. For HQ, I was thinking of running a rune priest or a wolf guard battle leader, (represented by a PA inquisitor).
So through this special detachment, your investment in SW would be a mere 70 or 80 points (depending on which you value more) and it would unlock 3 Drop pods for some shenanigans with purifiers in combat squads!
This is actually a good idea to make GK more flexible.
Three small Purifier units with two special weapons and one daemon hammer each is a decent choice.
Cleasing flame is a bonus on top.
Heavy Support
Dev centurions x3 (3x grav/amp, 3xhurricane)
Won both games, first one was against a fluffy dark angel army. Guy had a lascannon razor back with a 5 man tac squad, Landraider crusader with 5 assault termies, Stormtalon, 10 man marines in a drop pod, land speeder
My terms and my interceptors died, but the dreadknights and centurions were enough to finish him off and interceptors were hopping around grabbing maelstrom objectives
2nd game was against another GK cent star, he had 6 centurions though, 3 terminator squads, thunderfire cannon and scouts
Game pretty much went down to whoever failed powers first. I was able to deny a casting of his invisbility and my cent star wiped his out.
Liber is must have for a cent star on a hq, as rerolling failed gate rolls of 1's is great insurance.
I like this list, but my interceptors got wiped out hard, might switch them out for something else
what powers were the librarian and tigy rolling on? I'm assuming all 4 rolls for the libby went to sanctic for gate to save points and not get draigo.
MaxT wrote: Grav is affected by Cover just like Lascannons/missile launchers are tho, so not sure of your point?
Well, grav guns have a shorter range. So your unit will be closer to the enemy, withing 24''.
At this range, your unit could be able to maneuver around cover if necessary.
They also tend to be slow without Gate of Infinity or a Land Raider to cart them around. I get what you are saying but I still wouldn't take Grav Cents for dealing with vehicles even with Prescience and the Grav amp, that would be a waste of grav imo.
Grav is great anti tank. 2 centurions (if the sergeant split fires off) can wreck an av12 vehicle in one go. have all 3 shooting at the same one and even better. Then if they fail one cover save their immobilized (which is a big deal for units that rely on cover, serpents being top on the list)
I am glad that I am seeing a lot of lists similar to the way I run my GK with Imperial Fists and GK with Imperial Knight. I hope to running a 2,000 point army that is GK with both Imperial Fist and Imperial Knight allies to see how much I get out of it. I would love to try and get Tiggy but damn if I just don't really like the Ultramarines. Why were they the ones to get the best Librarian in the Space Marine codex?
Anyone try the Bikestar with GK yet? I really like how tough the Command Squad with Grav guns and Storm Shields are and I want to try it out but that is a good amount of money and points to spend in a GK army. I have heard the success of them in SM armies but I want to know if they would combine well in an allied detachment with the GK.
Also, I need to get a second set of Centurions now with Grav Cannons to mix and match to see what I like better. It gives me an excuse to get more Centurions anyway,
I have an unopened box for 5 PAGK. I was going to make them purifiers but am debating between the DS ability of SS or interceptors.
Currently my only troop choice is one squad of terminators so I could probably do with another troop squad. But for an extra 15 points on purifiers I get an extra ML, fearless, an extra attack and the ability to carry any extra heavy weapon. Interceptors are of course mobile and much needed in a GK army, especially since I've no transport or armor ( I plan on buying a storm raven and NDK or two).
Advice?
Current total army
1 GM 1 libby
4 man paladin squad
1 terminator squad (5)
1 purifier squad (5)
1 interceptor squad (5)
1 dreadnought
Castellan Crowe
Super Newb wrote: Magnetize the backpacks. That way you can switch from interceptors to strike squads or purifiers
My friends are all pretty lax about that. So I'll probably just run them as a 5 man squad with a flamer and declare them as one of the three. Is it difficult to magnetize the PAGK models?
Sixcyl wrote: I have an unopened box for 5 PAGK. I was going to make them purifiers but am debating between the DS ability of SS or interceptors.
Currently my only troop choice is one squad of terminators so I could probably do with another troop squad. But for an extra 15 points on purifiers I get an extra ML, fearless, an extra attack and the ability to carry any extra heavy weapon. Interceptors are of course mobile and much needed in a GK army, especially since I've no transport or armor ( I plan on buying a storm raven and NDK or two).
Advice?
Current total army
1 GM 1 libby
4 man paladin squad
1 terminator squad (5)
1 purifier squad (5)
1 interceptor squad (5)
1 dreadnought
Castellan Crowe
Since Grey Knights do not have the option of attaching an HQ with a jump pack to the interceptor squad who could then tank wounds with a 2+/3++ save to prevent the jump pack guys from getting killed before reaching CC, I think the Strike Squad is the best bang for you buck - they can do everything the Interceptors can do, minus the ability to move an additional 6" per turn, but for that they are cheaper and most importantly of all, have objective secured, meaning whatever enemy non-troop unit that is sitting on an objective they charge into, already means you control the objective until the strike squad is slaughtered or runs away. Fat chance of that happening when everyone has a S6 power weapon. Another bonus is that this way you can also use your terminators as paladins instead.
Arm them with an Incinerator - that way you can engage MEQs in melee, and engage GEQs at close range.
Purifiers are good if you load them up in a Land Raider and have them charge out of it. But other than that you are paying a lot of points for a unit that tries to excel at both range and close combat, but ends up bearing a hefty price tag for this and still not able to operate on its own.
Sixcyl wrote: I have an unopened box for 5 PAGK. I was going to make them purifiers but am debating between the DS ability of SS or interceptors.
Currently my only troop choice is one squad of terminators so I could probably do with another troop squad. But for an extra 15 points on purifiers I get an extra ML, fearless, an extra attack and the ability to carry any extra heavy weapon. Interceptors are of course mobile and much needed in a GK army, especially since I've no transport or armor ( I plan on buying a storm raven and NDK or two).
Advice?
Current total army
1 GM 1 libby
4 man paladin squad
1 terminator squad (5)
1 purifier squad (5)
1 interceptor squad (5)
1 dreadnought
Castellan Crowe
Since Grey Knights do not have the option of attaching an HQ with a jump pack to the interceptor squad who could then tank wounds with a 2+/3++ save to prevent the jump pack guys from getting killed before reaching CC, I think the Strike Squad is the best bang for you buck - they can do everything the Interceptors can do, minus the ability to move an additional 6" per turn, but for that they are cheaper and most importantly of all, have objective secured, meaning whatever enemy non-troop unit that is sitting on an objective they charge into, already means you control the objective until the strike squad is slaughtered or runs away. Fat chance of that happening when everyone has a S6 power weapon. Another bonus is that this way you can also use your terminators as paladins instead.
Arm them with an Incinerator - that way you can engage MEQs in melee, and engage GEQs at close range.
Purifiers are good if you load them up in a Land Raider and have them charge out of it. But other than that you are paying a lot of points for a unit that tries to excel at both range and close combat, but ends up bearing a hefty price tag for this and still not able to operate on its own.
The idea of extra paladins is nice.... the objective secured is pretty crucial considering I only have one squad that does that right now.
The idea of extra paladins is nice.... the objective secured is pretty crucial considering I only have one squad that does that right now.
If I understand correctly you have 0 obsec squads:
You currently only have 1 troops choice, the terminators. Fielding the army this way is legal using the Nemesis Strike Force Formation, which I don't believe includes Objective Secured as a benefit.
If you want to use the Combined Arms Detachment, which includes the Objective Secured rules, you need two troops. Two units of Termies, Two Strikes, one of each, whatever. But you can't promote your Termies to Paladins without fielding two PAGK units as strike squads and still get Objective Secured.
The idea of extra paladins is nice.... the objective secured is pretty crucial considering I only have one squad that does that right now.
If I understand correctly you have 0 obsec squads:
You currently only have 1 troops choice, the terminators. Fielding the army this way is legal using the Nemesis Strike Force Formation, which I don't believe includes Objective Secured as a benefit.
If you want to use the Combined Arms Detachment, which includes the Objective Secured rules, you need two troops. Two units of Termies, Two Strikes, one of each, whatever. But you can't promote your Termies to Paladins without fielding two PAGK units as strike squads and still get Objective Secured.
Koosh is right, you're feilding a NSF not a CAD so the troops lack OS anyway, IMHO the interceptors have a aserious edge as they DO have that 12 inch move, and just as importantly, have a 30 inch once per game shunt. used right I suspect that shunt'll make the point differance worthwhile in and all of itself
If I understand correctly you have 0 obsec squads:
You currently only have 1 troops choice, the terminators. Fielding the army this way is legal using the Nemesis Strike Force Formation, which I don't believe includes Objective Secured as a benefit.
If you want to use the Combined Arms Detachment, which includes the Objective Secured rules, you need two troops. Two units of Termies, Two Strikes, one of each, whatever. But you can't promote your Termies to Paladins without fielding two PAGK units as strike squads and still get Objective Secured.
kooshlord wrote:
If I understand correctly you have 0 obsec squads:
You currently only have 1 troops choice, the terminators. Fielding the army this way is legal using the Nemesis Strike Force Formation, which I don't believe includes Objective Secured as a benefit.
If you want to use the Combined Arms Detachment, which includes the Objective Secured rules, you need two troops. Two units of Termies, Two Strikes, one of each, whatever. But you can't promote your Termies to Paladins without fielding two PAGK units as strike squads and still get Objective Secured.
The idea of extra paladins is nice.... the objective secured is pretty crucial considering I only have one squad that does that right now.
If I understand correctly you have 0 obsec squads:
You currently only have 1 troops choice, the terminators. Fielding the army this way is legal using the Nemesis Strike Force Formation, which I don't believe includes Objective Secured as a benefit.
If you want to use the Combined Arms Detachment, which includes the Objective Secured rules, you need two troops. Two units of Termies, Two Strikes, one of each, whatever. But you can't promote your Termies to Paladins without fielding two PAGK units as strike squads and still get Objective Secured.
Koosh is right, you're feilding a NSF not a CAD so the troops lack OS anyway, IMHO the interceptors have a aserious edge as they DO have that 12 inch move, and just as importantly, have a 30 inch once per game shunt. used right I suspect that shunt'll make the point differance worthwhile in and all of itself
I wasn't aware that a NSF did not give you obsec. But if I go with a CAD do I lose the turn one DS?
Different detachments have different command benefits. If you choose a CAD, you get ObSec. If you go NSF, you get turn 1 DS. You cannot get both sets of command benefits within the same detachment.
Honestly i think the assumption that all Troops get ObSec is the most misunderstood rule in 7th. They don't, only troops chosen in a CAD or allied detachment get ObSec.
MaxT wrote: Different detachments have different command benefits. If you choose a CAD, you get ObSec. If you go NSF, you get turn 1 DS. You cannot get both sets of command benefits within the same detachment.
Honestly i think the assumption that all Troops get ObSec is the most misunderstood rule in 7th. They don't, only troops chosen in a CAD or allied detachment get ObSec.
This is why I let my Allied Detachment of Imperial Fists take care of Objective Secured and honestly, I don't think the GK will miss it now that every unit scores and one of the bad things about GK previously was having to take that second troop choice. Now, only needing one, opens a lot of doors for the GK to take and makes them an easy army to ally with or to get an ally. Even Purifier armies rely on this so that you can have more room to take Purifier units.
obsidiankatana wrote: Serpents are also generally more than 24'' away from their targets. Generally 36''+ away, for that matter.
No, generally.
Serpents (with tl scatter laser, underslung shuricannon, holofield) dish out more damage at 24'' or less.
With jink and holofield, they are well protected against shooting.
More damage, yes. But since a shield + laser attack requires 36" range, grav cannons are 24", and gate is 12", a smart player will put the serpent 36-37 away to either kill an inch of centurion and be safe from return fire or be completely safe from it. The loss of two shuriken cannon shots hardly cripples its damage output.
There are two equal schools of thought on Serpents.
Equip Cannons: Stay in 20-24" range
Don't buy extra cannons: Stay in 24-36" range
But never do we want more distance than 36"...and both get closer when it's time to unload...you don't want your guardians or avengers stuck having to hoof it
"...and both get closer when it's time to unload...you don't want your guardians or avengers stuck having to hoof it"
In terms of a transport I could accept this, were the scenario I initially responded to not about grav centurions shooting at the serpent. In which case avengers could simply advance 6, battle focus, and shoot them if the serpent died at 24" away.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This assumes it began 36 away, failed to kill 1 in of centurions, they were gated forwards and killed it.
obsidiankatana wrote: More damage, yes. But since a shield + laser attack requires 36" range, grav cannons are 24", and gate is 12", a smart player will put the serpent 36-37 away to either kill an inch of centurion and be safe from return fire or be completely safe from it. The loss of two shuriken cannon shots hardly cripples its damage output.
Well, no.
The Serpents do most of the damage in an Eldar list.
If the tl scatter laser hits, the shots of the shuricannon and the shield are tl as well.
If you play too hesitant, you'll play it not right.
Here I am mistaking gate for levitation, derp. Still, in the realm of using the serpent as a gunboat (they usually are) I still find little reason to get them any closer than 36". Against centurions without gate, doubly true. The extra two shots from a cannon are hardly worth taking return fire, though if its cargo is worth anything (fragons, wraiths, 10 models) then sure. But as a its traditional 5x DA boat, 36" sounds to me like the sweet spot without risking getting shot at.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @wuest - my point is that the cannon is two shots. That won't be the make or break for a round of shooting out of a serpent.
Well most Cent stars are not using only Gate as a Power. Its usually Gate + Invisbility, and more often than not, Perfect Timing to make your Jink useless
+10 man allied SW terminators with SS's and combi meltas, _ njal
should work out so that: between 3 biomancy, 3 tele, 4 sanctic + draigos powers:
whole unit has gate, 2++ saves on all but the libbies who have 3++, invisability, 4+ FNP, gate, maybe votex of doom.
couple this with having interceptor squads with tele homer and you can gate, turn 1 after your ints shunt, no scatter, unload psy powers+ melta into anything that needs its face wrecked, then charge whatevers left next turn. that many ablative 2++'s give the unit huge durability, even before 4+ FNP or invis, getting one/both of those makes this unit basically invincible.
+10 man allied SW terminators with SS's and combi meltas, _ njal
should work out so that: between 3 biomancy, 3 tele, 4 sanctic + draigos powers:
whole unit has gate, 2++ saves on all but the libbies who have 3++, invisability, 4+ FNP, gate, maybe votex of doom.
couple this with having interceptor squads with tele homer and you can gate, turn 1 after your ints shunt, no scatter, unload psy powers+ melta into anything that needs its face wrecked, then charge whatevers left next turn. that many ablative 2++'s give the unit huge durability, even before 4+ FNP or invis, getting one/both of those makes this unit basically invincible.
Na, Draigo for auto Gate, Stern for auto Sanctuary. 2++ FTW.
stern is prety expensive for what he does, a libby with 4 rolls on santic is going to do more then him most games, theres also the whole rerolling P test rolls of 1 for all the units too.
getting vortex and other powers is more usfull too. even if you miss 4 rolls at sanctuary from the first libby, you have 3 more rolls on the second one you can use if you really need.
taht way you still get the 2++, but otehr stuff in addition to it, and for less points.
While draigo is auto gate and a good beastick character all around with a good save, ew, and 4 wounds; Stern isnt 'auto take' like draigo is, he's too expensive for what he brings other than Sanctuary alone.
I'd agree a ML3 libby rolling on sanctic would be better than stern
It might actually do decently. Only thing the list can't take on are flyers.
Gerantius is durable enough to survive a turn of retribution so you could put everything else in reserves to Deep Strike if you wanted.
Here is my 1850 pure GK list. It did pretty well in our local tournament. Would have done awesome if my dice hadn't had a hard-on for killing my GM and his unit every game(first game failed morale and ran off the board, 2nd GM got sucked into the warp on turn 1, 3rd GM got 6'd by a Knight's Stomp but the Knight was killed too)
Grandmaster 232 pts
-Halberd
-MC Psycannon
-Curiass of Sacrifice
Librarian 165 pts
-Lvl3
-Stormbolter
-Domina Liber Daemonica
Going pure Sanctic is gold. Nothing in the Discipline is bad except for the Primaris power(and only if you aren't facing daemons)
Its awesome to get both GoI and VoD on the same Psyker. Deep Strike in, toss out a Vortex, and then GoI away is hilarious when you arrive from reserves.
ductvader wrote: I'm very much of the belief that in a Pure GK list, Telekinesis Librarians are the way to go. (Unless you take the Liber)
On a power by power basis the offer the most to the GKs without the redundancy of powers GKs already have.
I'm not seeing it.
Levitation and Psychic Maelstrom are worse versions of GoI and VoD. Shockwave is a worse version of Cleansing Flame.
Telekine Dome is flat out useless. Unless you are that desperate to get a 5++ on your Stormraven.
Assail is more useful overall than Banishment, but a Str6 Beam isn't exactly something to write home about.
Only powers I see being useful is Objuration Mechanicum and Crush. And Crush isn't super reliable. It doesn't even count as Str10 for ID purposes if you roll 11-12.
Sure, if you take special characters/use your LOW slot instead of a 2nd Librarian.
I don't care if one of my powers is redundant. The rest won't be.
And as I've shown, the Telekinesis powers are worse than Sanctic powers.
GoI>Levitation
VoD>Psychic Maelstrom
Cleansing Flame>Shockwave
Banishment<Assail
Sanctuary>Telekine Dome
Hammerhand=Objuration Mechanicum(slight edge to OM, but not enough to tip it)
Purge Soul=Crush(autowound with no armor saves vs usable vehicles I'd say is a wash)
2 powers that are roughly equal, and then 4/5 of the other powers being superior in Sanctic over Telekinesis.
I don't want to blow points on Stern or Draigo in addition to the 2 Librarian/GM's I'm taking. Those points are better spent elsewhere.
Draigo+Stern are sure bets on turning any unit of high damage models into a very mobile 2++ Deathstar, as they come pre-loaded with the best Sanct powers for Deathstarring. Add in a Booked up Libby for a 5/7 chance at Vortex, and you are golden.
Grey Templar wrote: I don't feel at all comfortable dumping 1000 points into a single unit.
I'd rather have 2 still quite effective 10 man units, each with a single Librarian in them.
I play this way as well. Two Libbys in either 10-man Termie squads or 5-man Pallies with Apothecary is pretty nice. You're going to get what you need from 1 Libby with the Liber Daemonica at the least. What I'm trying to flush out is whether I'm better off rolling Sanctic for the other libby or going Divination. The chance for the 4++ power there, or ignores cover, or re-rolling saves (to help make the Libby a bit more "tanky", along wtih Prescience is pretty tempting.
Although I will say that at least Stern is playable now! Whoo hoooo!
I really feel like rolling on the Santic table is a waste. Most of those powers GK units already have.
If a list needs to be built around Gate, then wouldn't Draigo be a better idea? I mean, ok, you'd have to spend points on an HQ on top of him because he is a LoW, but the Gate is a sure thing....
Grey Templar wrote: Hardly. Only power that is regularly duplicated is HH. Sanctuary is only on the DK and Stern.
I'd like the possibility of having Vortex of Doom and Gate, and another Sanctuary for my other squad.
Well, cleansing flame is the Purifiers thing. So that and hammerhand are around for sure. The primaris is situational obviously (psychic shriek otoh is useful always) so who cares if it is around or not. Purge Soul no one cares about. And Vortex of Doom is nasty sure, but holy jeebus, it is expensive to cast for what it is. So we're down to Gate and Sanctuary.
Heavy Support: Nemesis Dreadknight, Personal Teleporter, Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Nemsis Greatsword - 225 Nemesis Dreadknight, Personal Teleporter, Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Nemsis Greatsword - 225
Lord of War: Kaldor Draigo - 245
Imperial Fists - Sentinels of Terra
HQ: Librarian, ML 2, Bones of Osrak - 115
Troops: 10 Tactical Marines, Meltagun, Combi-melta, - 165 Drop pod - 35
Heavy Support: 3 Devastator Centurions, Grav Cannons with Grav amps - 250
Imperial Knight: Knight Errant - 370
It comes to 1,998 points all together so I am satisfied with that. The list worked wonderfully for me. Draigo, the 2 Librarians and the Centurions all go in one squad and start on the board with Draigo in front to tank shots. I did not declare Draigo my Warlord though, I gave that to my Librarian seeing as Draigo was there to absorb shots and I wanted to take rolls on the GK Warlord Traits table trying to get the Trait that would give my Librarian a 5th power. I got the trait that comes stock on Draigo even with re-rolling. I also started with the Imperial Knight and both Dreadknights on the board, I had gotten screwed a couple of times putting them in deep strike when needing them on the board and didn't use their shunt that game anyway so I kind felt like I shouldn't of paid for the Personal Teleporters that game but this game even with starting them on the board, they performed wonderfully, that 12" move distance being the best with the 30" shunt being able to get my Dreadknights in on the same turn that the Drop Pod hit and my terminators came in.
My opponent who was playing Emperor's Children and Slaaneshi daemons with a Nurgle daemons being summoned. He seized the initiative but I quickly recovered and Gated my DraigoCenturionStar behind his lines to utterly annihilate his Daemon Prince warlord with 13 grav shots to the back. First blood and Slay the Warlord all in one go. That was pretty much the tone that would set the battle. He worried me a bit when he got my Centurions into close combat killing one but Draigo saved the day when he Gated the squad out of close combat (Our ruling for this is that Gate of Infinity is a blessing therefore can be used while in Close Combat and the rule book said that close combat ends when they are no longer in base contact. therefore the movement was allowed) and proceeded to grav the heck out of the squad. My Imperial Knight also then came to the rescue and gave Lucious the Chainsword to the face after he used his thermal cannon to melt the others in the unit. After that it was mainly cleaning up the rest. My opponent made a lot of FNP saves too, otherwise this would of been a worse game for him. Plague Marines gave me a bit of trouble as well but a Dreadknight did well in taking them out.
Overall, probably going to be my main 2,000 point list. I am trying to bring this same flavor to lower point games and still be successful. 1,850 is my next challenge and 1,500 as well but anything around 1,000 is hard to fit anything but a GK list in. That Nemesis Strike Force definitely provides some awesome flexibility in list building and has let me combine my 3 favorite Imperial Armies.
Super Newb wrote: I really feel like rolling on the Santic table is a waste. Most of those powers GK units already have.
If a list needs to be built around Gate, then wouldn't Draigo be a better idea? I mean, ok, you'd have to spend points on an HQ on top of him because he is a LoW, but the Gate is a sure thing....
dude... getting a ranged D weapon is HUGE !
gate is HUGE, +1 to ++ is HUGE, the other powers are usefull, quite literally every single power is good.
considering that they will be with TWC or THSS termies who lack hammer hand, every single spell has a use.
The only thing I am considering is running one Libby with Sanctic and a 2nd with Divination.
That gives you a guaranteed rerolls to hit(useful when every shot needs to count) and the possibility of Forwarning(which means 3++ is a possibility)
The ideal combo would be one libby getting VoD, Gate, and Sanctuary. And the other getting Forewarning and Prescience. With any other powers being a bonus.
Grey Templar wrote: The only thing I am considering is running one Libby with Sanctic and a 2nd with Divination.
That gives you a guaranteed rerolls to hit(useful when every shot needs to count) and the possibility of Forwarning(which means 3++ is a possibility)
The ideal combo would be one libby getting VoD, Gate, and Sanctuary. And the other getting Forewarning and Prescience. With any other powers being a bonus.
The Imperial Fist Librarian I take rolls on the Divination table but for more support for the Centurion squad more than anything else
Im gonna try ten man purifiers with a lib for goi and have 4 psycannons in the squad. Jump em around and lay down 16 st7 ap 4 rending shots on whoever looks at me the wrong way.
I think a potential use for paladins is several 5-man units with 2 psycannons and an apothecary, he's cheap enough now that each wound saved (half a paladin) just more than makes his points back. With the nemesis formation you can run a few with a minimal tax, and against small arms fire they are still points per wound more survivable than termies. Granted melta or a demolisher cannon will ruin your day, but with a turn one deepstrike and some dreadknight support I think you'd stand a decent chance, there isn't that much massed S8 AP2 and you've got a decent chance at getting sanctuary. Maybe have your librarians take one roll on divination for prescience for better psycannon fire though. Haven't tried this one yet, but I think it has the most potential if you want to run a lot of pallies.
There's still the full-on draigowing option with stern thrown in for 2++ tanking, but it's a really expensive unit as always (though more mobile and survivable now). In the current push for OBSEC MSU though I think that you'll be severely limited in the objectives fight unless you can pull off some awesome multi-charges. I've tried this, beat tau but that one unit was overkill.
Finally, it looks like a few people are going with a single small "bodyguard" unit of paladins (3-5) to buff someone like draigo or some libbys with FNP and +1 attack and just enough backup to take down most stuff. Unfortunately, the one time I did this the unit mishapped and had to footslog their way from a far corner and didn't contribute much (I had a librarian and telepathy+biomancy tigurius in it, no gate unfortunately).
jy2 wrote: I'm trying to get my paladins to work. Any idea on how best to run a GK army with them?
I've had good luck with two units of 5 Pallies with 2 Psycannons and an Apothecary, led by Libbies. Roll sanctic for Sanctuary to help minimize the losses from S8 AP2/1 weapons. Of course taking 2 Dreadknights to distract AP2 fire from the Pallies helps.
Those Pallies are tough as nails with Sanctuary and FNP.
Kyck24 wrote: Im gonna try ten man purifiers with a lib for goi and have 4 psycannons in the squad. Jump em around and lay down 16 st7 ap 4 rending shots on whoever looks at me the wrong way.
Moreover, cleansing flame is awesome when you can manage to close to several enemy units.
In our apoc battle on Saturday, these guys did a lot of damage.
I have just never had the faith in Paladins since I have seen my Terminators be ravaged by AP2 weaponry and alot of AP2 weaponry tends to be S8+ so I just don't like the prospects of spending all those points and it not paying off which is why I like taking allies and taking the Centurions. To me that T5 makes a huge difference on a 2W model since it is harder to be insta-killed. The only bad part is that they don't have at least a 5++ or FNP. It's a give and take, and my experiences have jaded me I guess.
Cleansing Flame is awesome and I have been mostly using it with my Librarian. I hate it that Purifiers can't deep strike and I don't want to take SW just to get access to easy Drop Pods. I could technically get access to them through my Imperial Fist allies but I feel that putting the Tacticals in there is a better use of resources because I usually send the Drop Pod to go after objectives.
Orks have been having some success with MegaArmour boss w/ lucky stikk to accomplish the same thing except Libby can run, has IWND and a rerollable invul save.
Add sanctuary + forewarning to get 3++ rerollable.
I personally like thw daemonica on my lib. An extra santic power gives me chances for goi and cleansing flame or vortex of doom. Nasty stuff that is. Used two libs with two purifier squads with flamers today. Each lib got goi and cleansing flame and with the purifiers, lemme tell you the space wolve squads fell quick by the second turn.
Yeah, I agree, if anything the Libby gets better mileage out of the book because you get more of the Sanctic table. Save the Cuirass for a different model.
Quick question. If my lib generates cleansing flame psychic power and is attached to a purifier squad can i still use two cleansing flames for that squad?
Kyck24 wrote: Quick question. If my lib generates cleansing flame psychic power and is attached to a purifier squad can i still use two cleansing flames for that squad?
Kyck24 wrote: Quick question. If my lib generates cleansing flame psychic power and is attached to a purifier squad can i still use two cleansing flames for that squad?
No, a unit can only manifest a power once.
Unit or Squad because technically they are all different units in the same squad. And if they are different units, it means technically they could manifest Cleansing Flame multiple times but a Squad can only manifest one power then that is different. I might be arguing semantics though. Is there a place in the rules where one could look this up?
Kyck24 wrote: Quick question. If my lib generates cleansing flame psychic power and is attached to a purifier squad can i still use two cleansing flames for that squad?
Can never fire the same power from the same squad twice.
Kyck24 wrote: Quick question. If my lib generates cleansing flame psychic power and is attached to a purifier squad can i still use two cleansing flames for that squad?
That would depend on which intepretation you go with. Tournaments using the BAOFAQ, no. Tournaments using the Nova FAQ, yes. Really, GW did a crappy job writing with regards to this. The best thing to do is to discuss it beforehand with your opponent and decide how you guys should play it.
Kyck24 wrote: Quick question. If my lib generates cleansing flame psychic power and is attached to a purifier squad can i still use two cleansing flames for that squad?
That would depend on which intepretation you go with. Tournaments using the BAOFAQ, no. Tournaments using the Nova FAQ, yes. Really, GW did a crappy job writing with regards to this. The best thing to do is to discuss it beforehand with your opponent and decide how you guys should play it.
So we only have a clarification from major tournaments...which disagree with each other...and nothing from GW? I know my local group has it that each unit can manifest their own powers so a Librarian attached to a Purifier Squad can both manifest the same Psychic power since they independently contribute to the warp charge count with the Libby giving 3 and the Purifier giving 1 for a total of 4 warp charges from that squad.
Kyck24 wrote: Quick question. If my lib generates cleansing flame psychic power and is attached to a purifier squad can i still use two cleansing flames for that squad?
That would depend on which intepretation you go with. Tournaments using the BAOFAQ, no. Tournaments using the Nova FAQ, yes. Really, GW did a crappy job writing with regards to this. The best thing to do is to discuss it beforehand with your opponent and decide how you guys should play it.
So we only have a clarification from major tournaments...which disagree with each other...and nothing from GW? I know my local group has it that each unit can manifest their own powers so a Librarian attached to a Purifier Squad can both manifest the same Psychic power since they independently contribute to the warp charge count with the Libby giving 3 and the Purifier giving 1 for a total of 4 warp charges from that squad.
If that's how you play then the squad has 5 warp charges since Purifiers are ML2.
I feel like the lib should be able to cast his powers seperate from thw unit hes attached too. Im searching through all my books and cant find any clarification.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I would assume they also generate 5 warp charges? Does draigo and his paladins not generate a total of three charges? Seems like a lot of charges would be lost by pairing in dependant characters if that is the case.
Kyck24 wrote: Quick question. If my lib generates cleansing flame psychic power and is attached to a purifier squad can i still use two cleansing flames for that squad?
That would depend on which intepretation you go with. Tournaments using the BAOFAQ, no. Tournaments using the Nova FAQ, yes. Really, GW did a crappy job writing with regards to this. The best thing to do is to discuss it beforehand with your opponent and decide how you guys should play it.
So we only have a clarification from major tournaments...which disagree with each other...and nothing from GW? I know my local group has it that each unit can manifest their own powers so a Librarian attached to a Purifier Squad can both manifest the same Psychic power since they independently contribute to the warp charge count with the Libby giving 3 and the Purifier giving 1 for a total of 4 warp charges from that squad.
If that's how you play then the squad has 5 warp charges since Purifiers are ML2.
So they are, I never realized this. I don't use them so I don't know all their rules for them. I do agree with the interpretation that if a character unit joins a squad, it casts its psychic powers independently of the unit that it is attached to since they still independently generate their warp charges.
Kyck24 wrote: Quick question. If my lib generates cleansing flame psychic power and is attached to a purifier squad can i still use two cleansing flames for that squad?
No, a unit can only manifest a power once.
Correct, but the answer to his question is yes.
The Librarion and Purifiers are separate "psychic units". They can each cast their own copy of a power.
Envihon wrote: Yeah, I agree, if anything the Libby gets better mileage out of the book because you get more of the Sanctic table. Save the Cuirass for a different model.
Without a doubt libby with he book, but for a second Libby I think cuirass with divination will get you a lot of mileage on anything except ap 1-2 weapons.
Kyck24 wrote: Quick question. If my lib generates cleansing flame psychic power and is attached to a purifier squad can i still use two cleansing flames for that squad?
That would depend on which intepretation you go with. Tournaments using the BAOFAQ, no. Tournaments using the Nova FAQ, yes. Really, GW did a crappy job writing with regards to this. The best thing to do is to discuss it beforehand with your opponent and decide how you guys should play it.
So we only have a clarification from major tournaments...which disagree with each other...and nothing from GW? I know my local group has it that each unit can manifest their own powers so a Librarian attached to a Purifier Squad can both manifest the same Psychic power since they independently contribute to the warp charge count with the Libby giving 3 and the Purifier giving 1 for a total of 4 warp charges from that squad.
If that's how you play then the squad has 5 warp charges since Purifiers are ML2.
So they are, I never realized this. I don't use them so I don't know all their rules for them. I do agree with the interpretation that if a character unit joins a squad, it casts its psychic powers independently of the unit that it is attached to since they still independently generate their warp charges.
Yes they are good. The fact that they're 125 points means you should probably never be taking regular GKSS... for 15 points more you get ML2, Cleansing Flame, and the ability to take 2x special weapons per 5 Purifiers. Yes they are elites... but take the mandatory 5x Terminators for 165 and don't ever look back at GKSS go for Purifiers. You can also combat squad 10x Purifiers, and each 5x combat squad then gives 2 psychic die and can each cast Cleansing Flame separately.
Kyck24 wrote: Quick question. If my lib generates cleansing flame psychic power and is attached to a purifier squad can i still use two cleansing flames for that squad?
That would depend on which intepretation you go with. Tournaments using the BAOFAQ, no. Tournaments using the Nova FAQ, yes. Really, GW did a crappy job writing with regards to this. The best thing to do is to discuss it beforehand with your opponent and decide how you guys should play it.
So we only have a clarification from major tournaments...which disagree with each other...and nothing from GW? I know my local group has it that each unit can manifest their own powers so a Librarian attached to a Purifier Squad can both manifest the same Psychic power since they independently contribute to the warp charge count with the Libby giving 3 and the Purifier giving 1 for a total of 4 warp charges from that squad.
If that's how you play then the squad has 5 warp charges since Purifiers are ML2.
So they are, I never realized this. I don't use them so I don't know all their rules for them. I do agree with the interpretation that if a character unit joins a squad, it casts its psychic powers independently of the unit that it is attached to since they still independently generate their warp charges.
Yes they are good. The fact that they're 125 points means you should probably never be taking regular GKSS... for 15 points more you get ML2, Cleansing Flame, and the ability to take 2x special weapons per 5 Purifiers. Yes they are elites... but take the mandatory 5x Terminators for 165 and don't ever look back at GKSS go for Purifiers. You can also combat squad 10x Purifiers, and each 5x combat squad then gives 2 psychic die and can each cast Cleansing Flame separately.
One problem, and it is a big problem for me: The lack of Deep Strike. I am a teleporting fiend and I love abusing the Shunt and Deep Striking mechanics of the army, especially now that we have a codex that highly encourages that, the Purifiers are a tough sell for me. Instead, I take the Terminators and I go with Interceptors instead. That mobility is no longer and issue for my army. I absolutely love the Purifiers, don't get me wrong but it just doesn't fit for me unfortunately and to solve this problem I would have to take SW and I much prefer the Imperial Fists. Nothing like having yellow and silver in your face.
Indeed, Purifiers cannot deep strike which is certainly a drawback.
But they have cleansing flame which can be absolutely devastating if you manage to bring multiple units close to multiple enemy units.
We had this situation in an apoc battle at the weekend.
wuestenfux wrote: Indeed, Purifiers cannot deep strike which is certainly a drawback.
But they have cleansing flame which can be absolutely devastating if you manage to bring multiple units close to multiple enemy units.
We had this situation in an apoc battle at the weekend.
See, this is makes me want to use them. Cleansing Flame is what made me start taking Sanctic on my ML3 Librarian instead of Telepathy. Sanctuary and Cleansing Flame are a better combination than Invisibility and Psychic Shriek despite how good Invisibility is. What delivery method did you use for the Purifiers?
wuestenfux wrote: Indeed, Purifiers cannot deep strike which is certainly a drawback.
But they have cleansing flame which can be absolutely devastating if you manage to bring multiple units close to multiple enemy units.
We had this situation in an apoc battle at the weekend.
See, this is makes me want to use them. Cleansing Flame is what made me start taking Sanctic on my ML3 Librarian instead of Telepathy. Sanctuary and Cleansing Flame are a better combination than Invisibility and Psychic Shriek despite how good Invisibility is. What delivery method did you use for the Purifiers?
Two units of Purifiers each of which in a Landraider.
This is fine for apoc, but in normal games its better to use a cheap delivery system, like Rhino, Razorback, or an SW Drop Pod.
Since I have the models already, I want to try using Purifier spam with 25 Purifiers and 5 Rhinos (4 units with Rhinos and 1 Fast Attack Rhino). I haven't been able to play yet but in 1850 I think I can fit 1 Libby, 5 Termies, 5 combat squads of Purifiers in Rhinos (max out on Psycannons) and 2 DKs.
Zimko wrote: Since I have the models already, I want to try using Purifier spam with 25 Purifiers and 5 Rhinos (4 units with Rhinos and 1 Fast Attack Rhino). I haven't been able to play yet but in 1850 I think I can fit 1 Libby, 5 Termies, 5 combat squads of Purifiers in Rhinos (max out on Psycannons) and 2 DKs.
Zimko wrote: Since I have the models already, I want to try using Purifier spam with 25 Purifiers and 5 Rhinos (4 units with Rhinos and 1 Fast Attack Rhino). I haven't been able to play yet but in 1850 I think I can fit 1 Libby, 5 Termies, 5 combat squads of Purifiers in Rhinos (max out on Psycannons) and 2 DKs.
This is actually a good idea.
Thanks . I love the fact we can get Rhinos/Razerbacks transports from Fast Attack now. It opens up some list possibilities that didn't exist before.
Im teleporting two squads of purifiers in with draigo and a libby. Possible three cleansing flames depending on how my lib rolls. I know its a wierd way to use draigo but it worked great against space wolves. A guarantees goi with drag and my lib with 4 santic powers and a chance at 5 with his warlord traits. Easy to get goi and cleansing flame or vod. Its a fun combo i tried and makes my purifiers a legit part of my alpha strike... also i gave my lib a tele homer so any straglers from my alpha strike wont scatter the next turns they arrive.
Fortifications don't really go well with GKs in my opinion. What we really want is a comms relay but the tax of a Defense Line is a little too high. Our long-range Dreadnoughts suck now so we can't sit them on the defense line, and everything else is too short a range to sit back and do nothing.
So if you're going for a non-teleporting/shunt list then maybe the Bastion for a LOS blocker? I'm not sure.
I'm thinking bastion with escape hatch and comms relay....
Espape hatch can get your purifiers up to 18" deep into the field . You'll also have a more reliable first turn deepstrike... So I'm thinking about experimenting with that setup.
10 man purifier squad with 4 special weapons, combat squad them, get them to operate the comms relay... might work. Does seem rather expensive to not use that much in the rest of the game though.
And it lets your purifiers to sit somewhere safe for the first turn too, it might not be a bad idea.
Worst case scenario, it becomes a retreat location for you. (though you might want to keep something there to prevent enemy from taking it to himself?)
Bastion with a comms relay for an allied Vindicare might not be horrible. 2+ cover, all the line of sight you'd ever want, he's got range enough for the table, and benefits your NSF detachment reserves.
BoomWolf wrote: And it lets your purifiers to sit somewhere safe for the first turn too, it might not be a bad idea.
Worst case scenario, it becomes a retreat location for you. (though you might want to keep something there to prevent enemy from taking it to himself?)
Possibly... although with comms relay, you have about 89% chance that your troops hit the table. It doesn't look like you would have to hold on much longer to it than needed... Vindicare would be a great choice as well.
Or, you hide your 2 mandatory servitors in there to man the fortress if you want to take the droppod route through codex: SW using the company of the great wolf detachment.
*edit* an imperial bunker from the wall of martyrs set might just do the same for you for a slightly cheaper point cost however... If you want to keep points down as much as possible. It doesn't have the advantage of the very elevated firing position though. We use quite a few buildings in our gaming group, so bastion has my preference... YMMV
