Honestly, I think the biggest strength of our codex is that it is less about how many bad things we have and more about tough decisions between all the good things. It is a solid codex with answers for most things. Serpents can be a pain if you field six, but people will still see you as "that guy" just got having Eldar even if you never use one. I like having so many good options and honestly wish everyone else did too, which is why I stopped playing tournaments and set up games ahead of time so the games are more fair/fun.
Wave Serpents, Warp Spiders, Wraithknights. Avoid using those (at least in any spammy fashion) and you probably won't end up being TFG. Oh and a jetbike farseer/autarch with a mantle is a pain in the butt. 2++ rerollables are something that should not exist in this game.
The only unit that is actually overpowered/undercosted in the codex is the Wave Serpant- it is hilariously broken, but using a few of them doesn't make you a TFG because, like it or not, they're the Eldar's only DT. So you kind of need to take them if you plan on using any units that don't have a 12'' move or long-ranged guns.
The Wraithknight's shooting is overcosted crap for 240 points. It's greatest strength lies in its native strength 10 ap2 and it's 12 inch move, but with its negligible shooting,240 points is fare for that mobility and damage.
Beyond that, not a whole lot. I do think that bladestorm is overpowered garbage and no army should have army-wide pseudo-rending for free on their primary ranged weapons. Battle-focus can be frustrating but it isn't overpowered.
The main source of hurt feelings with Eldar comes from Wave Serpents and the fact that they're highly mobile in an edition that greatly rewards high mobility. Being able to move a scoring unit something utterly insane like 48 inches in a single tun while ignoring all terrain along the way and getting a 4+ cover save (at worst) really just is not fair in this edition. As far as I'm concerned, no troops in any codex should have a 12+'' move.
Beyond that, many of the units in the Eldar codex are very strong and viable, but certainly not overpowered.
Main strength of the eldars are their mobility combined to a synergic firepower.
In Maelstrom of War games, those are a tremendous advantage to fulfill the right objective at the right time. That's why they are so feared in that particular point of view.
The fact they can easily have Objective Secured and highly mobile troops is also helping a lot (I'm also looking at you, jetbike guardians). The codex is just too good in V7, that's all. They need to have a true "V7" one, like the others...but we know it won't happen soon.
240 for 2 S10AP1 shots is not a bad cost.
A railgun hammerhead pays 125 points base to have a single one.
Its GREAT shooting, especially when piled on top of great CC abilities as "something to do will you get the main action going"
Back to topic-to purposely avoid being an eldar TFG you need to follow these simple rules:
1-do not take more than a single wraithknight if you do.
2-do not spam WS for everything, take it only when justified (fire dragons for example) as a transport, not as the actual unit with minimal troop tax.
3-do not spam a single unit type too much, most eldar units are totally fine when you got one or two teams, but annoying to face three or more of. jetbikes and spiders are heavy in this realm.
It can be pretty much joined into a single rule of "have a diverse army with little or no duplicate units"
Naturally its possible to avoid being a TFG even while taking such lists, but avoiding such lists pretty much assures you don't get there.
Honetly, I can't even imagine how long it'll be before Eldar get a new codex. This one is so in so many ways that I simply can't fathom what kind of changes they would have to make to the core rules to necessitate writing up a new codex. 6th Edition Eldar are now what the 4th edition Ork codex was, I think.
In addition to Wave Serpents I'd like to add two things:
1) Psyker spam. Eldar can get tons of warp charge on the table fairly easily, which means lots of powers on offense and enough deny dice to shut down any non-spam army's entire psychic phase. If you find yourself throwing 20+ dice at invisibility or summoning unit after unit of demons then your opponent probably isn't going to be very happy.
2) MSU jetbikes. They're dirt cheap and can fly across the table every turn to claim objectives. If you're foolish enough to use the random objective cards MSU jetbikes are going to be claiming new cards every turn and running up an obscene point total, and even in normal games it's pretty easy to hold a squad or three back for a late-turn objective grab. And with the new FOC rules you can take an unlimited number of them, ally them into other armies for cheap scoring, etc.
BlaxicanX wrote: Honetly, I can't even imagine how long it'll be before Eldar get a new codex. This one is so in so many ways that I simply can't fathom what kind of changes they would have to make to the core rules to necessitate writing up a new codex. 6th Edition Eldar are now what the 4th edition Ork codex was, I think.
What makes you think the next codex release will be based on need, rather than just GW taking an easy opportunity to make you pay another $50 to keep using your army?
As said Serpent spam, psyker spam, msu Jetbike spam, pseudo rending troop guns, D scythes, Wraithknights with their toughness and fast movement, Fire Dragons, a units with melta weapons, Warp Spiders, and not to forget Warwalkers with their decent shooting can really be a pain for the enemy.
No other army out there has comparable capabilities.
if you play Eldar, people like those last three guys are going to hate you, pretend that your codex is the best, and pretend that the codex won, not you.
This guy has no idea about anything tbh and resorts to this sort of attack when people upset his warped world view. The vast majority of the community agree with the fact Wave Serpents are broken - he as apparently a WAAC player, likes to imagine they are not, odd that.
For instance he completely ignores that fact that I am an Eldar player
1. If people call you TFG, they are TFG. It's totally unacceptable to shun people for their unit choices or willingness to play the game to its fullest.
Plain wrong.
Saying someone is a TFG is being a TFG is silly, by that logic every player on earth is a TFG the moment a single one exists.
No, your unit choices do not automatically make you a TFG even if they are optimal, and there is a time and a place where being a WAAC (a subset of TFG) is the expected and proper behavior (tournament mostly), but going all-out in casual games is no healthy for the fun of the opponent unless its agreed and expected that you do-and fun is the most important factor in the end.
Once you go around not giving a damn about your opponent's fun-you are the TFG.
Shuriken weapons are AP2 on a 6-to-wound, which wounds despite the T. It wouldn't be so bad, but everyone gets them, in various forms.
Their tanks are all 12/12/10, and the WS has anti-pen shields.
All vehicles are fast, with extras. Eldar Jetbikes are made better in the BRB profile.
Battle-focus lets most units run-&-shoot or shoot-&-run. Wraiths are exempt, but most others get it.
So, add all that together, and Eldar are very shooty, and even the basic units get a form of JSJ.
But, they're S3 and T3, so go down pretty fast if you can catch them.
1. If people call you TFG, they are TFG. It's totally unacceptable to shun people for their unit choices or willingness to play the game to its fullest.
Plain wrong.
Saying someone is a TFG is being a TFG is silly, by that logic every player on earth is a TFG the moment a single one exists.
No, your unit choices do not automatically make you a TFG even if they are optimal, and there is a time and a place where being a WAAC (a subset of TFG) is the expected and proper behavior (tournament mostly), but going all-out in casual games is no healthy for the fun of the opponent unless its agreed and expected that you do-and fun is the most important factor in the end.
Once you go around not giving a damn about your opponent's fun-you are the TFG.
1. If people call you TFG for bringing any combination of untis, they are TFG. My bad if it was a bit short, but clearly in the case of the OP.
WAAC is NOT a subset of TFG, and is NOT proper behavior in tournaments.
WAAC is way beyond just playing competitively, WAAC is about Winning At All Costs, i.e. cheating, bluffing on rules, stalling for time and many other unacceptable behaviors.
Writing a good list and playing it right does not mean WAAC.
Competitive behavior as is expected in tournaments is perfectly sane and respectful of others.
And lastly, most of the TFG's are NOT competitive players, they're just donkey-caves with behavior issues.
That's entirely not compatible with competition which is based on honesty and respect.
Cheating is not WAAC, its cheating.
Bluffing on rules is cheating.
Stalling is cheating.
Writing an exemplary min-maxed loophole abusing RAW yet obviously not RAI legal list is WAAC, not cheating.
And yes, its entirely possible to be a TFG without playing remotly competetive, but it still does not mean that going all-in at a non competitive enviourment is not TFG behavior alert, and at the very least gets you too close to comfort there.
Skinnereal wrote: So, add all that together, and Eldar are very shooty, and even the basic units get a form of JSJ.
But, they're S3 and T3, so go down pretty fast if you can catch them.
This. When Eldar came out, I saw that they were glass cannons, so I figured they were fine. However, Wave Serpents negate this completely and make them nearly impossible to kill if your opponent is playing smartly. Make Wave Serpents fair and then the army as a whole becomes much funner to play against.
wuestenfux wrote: As said Serpent spam, psyker spam, msu Jetbike spam, pseudo rending troop guns, D scythes, Wraithknights with their toughness and fast movement, Fire Dragons, a units with melta weapons, Warp Spiders, and not to forget Warwalkers with their decent shooting can really be a pain for the enemy.
No other army out there has comparable capabilities.
These would be the supporting issues with Eldar which could do with toning down. However, Wave Serpents would be the most OP aspect overall.
if you play Eldar, people like those last three guys are going to hate you, pretend that your codex is the best, and pretend that the codex won, not you.
This guy has no idea about anything tbh and resorts to this sort of attack when people upset his warped world view. The vast majority of the community agree with the fact Wave Serpents are broken - he as apparently a WAAC player, likes to imagine they are not, odd that.
For instance he completely ignores that fact that I am an Eldar player
Yeah, someone is annoyed that people won't play him anymore... For the record, the top 2 armies at a tournament I was at on the weekend were Eldar Serpent Spam lists, and they won all 4 of their games, each (and 7/8 of those were by a margin of 4VP or more).
Sure, it depends on which one will push on the big red button first.
But seriously, Eldars have very good units in their codex (and quite obvious to see and exploit, honestly). Making them more "V7-like" would be quite easy, though. Just a few fixes here and there - and putting these damn jetbikes where they should never have left in Fast Attack choices. Same for marine bikers, by the way, but that's another debate.
After all, since now all units can take an Objective, there is no reason to give that precious Troop status to units that were never troops in the beginning.
if you play Eldar, people like those last three guys are going to hate you, pretend that your codex is the best, and pretend that the codex won, not you.
This guy has no idea about anything tbh and resorts to this sort of attack when people upset his warped world view. The vast majority of the community agree with the fact Wave Serpents are broken - he as apparently a WAAC player, likes to imagine they are not, odd that.
For instance he completely ignores that fact that I am an Eldar player
Let's not forget this thread, written under the guise of Rules Disambiguation, that was really just an attempt at getting to get the community to "re-imagine" the rules unfairly in his favor.
Some gems from this thread include bending the rules regarding "jink" so now his Wave Serpents can jink even if they aren't targeted, and nerfing Tesla weapons.
As for the topic, it's not just the maneuverability problem with Wave Serpents, it's that they have arguably the best weapon of any DT in the game. Serpent Shield is hilariously overpowered. It should have been a Nova with a 6" range, not an ignores-cover weapon that covers the entire table. This, coupled with the changes to Jink, and the Serpent Shield's bonus if you choose not to fire it, your only real reliable way of destroying it is to cause it to fail 3 3+ cover saves and glance it to death. If it was AV10 or 11 this wouldn't be so bad, but it's AV12.
40k used to follow the rule: Cheap, Fast, Powerful, Durable - pick 2 or 3. The Wave Serpent gets all 4.
Sir Arun wrote: I play Eldar but I only own 1 Wave Serpent and 0 Wraithlords. I also only have 3 jetbikes.
Without these, can I play an Eldar army without being called TFG? What else is there in the codex that makes people cry foul?
Just don't spam the really good stuff. It makes me sigh and go, 'this again?' when I see a parking lot worth of wave serpents on the other side of the table that shows every point possible was devoted to adding the most OP stuff, but aside from edge cases like that, taking what you want in an Eldar army shouldn't earn you any scorn from reasonable opponents.
Sir Arun wrote: I play Eldar but I only own 1 Wave Serpent and 0 Wraithlords. I also only have 3 jetbikes.
Without these, can I play an Eldar army without being called TFG? What else is there in the codex that makes people cry foul?
I hear you just bringing a eldar army can auto label you in the first 5 seconds of a game. So, I have resently taken a hiatus on 40k. The new rules seem a tad bit better, except psychic phase In my opinion which are horrible. The inequality of codices is the shinning example of how bad the game has gotten. Again in my opinion it seems the uber tourney goer who is willing to spend $500+ on the new broken list is and will continue to ruin the game for others outside the grand tourney realm
Shiurken weapons are awesome so how do you avoid this, answer is you can't.
Stay away from:
1) Seerstar, while not very powerful in shooting or close combat, it is highly annoying to kill.
2) 4+ wave serpent, I've been told that 3 was too many go figure.
3) 2-3 units of 10 warp spiders again not OP but can be difficult to eliminate. they shoot, they run, then teliport and hide. Nothing make opponents more angry then having to deal with units that can shoot you and then completely hide behid terrain.
4) 2-3 Wraitknights most people will roll thier eyes when they see 2-3 of them.
5) Multiple units of D-flamers, one is powerful but can be dealt with, start spamming them and you'll get no love from your opponents.
6) Mass distort/wraith armies, however I think they are weak, too few models to be effective. People just don't like them so avoid.
Good Luck, we Eldar players had to endure years of having an poor to average codex, depending on which army we played. Then came 6th and now we're looking for ways to play the game without the label of TFG. I had to start all game conversations with "I've been playing them since 3rd edition and i only play one new unit the D-flamers".
What makes a unit good? Some combination of offense, defense, speed and points efficiency.
Normally if a unit is points efficient they will excel in one or two categories with a weakness in thw other(s).
Eldar possess some of the best units in the game because they are strong in all three categories while being very cheap comparatively.
Wave Serpents
Wraithknights
Warp Spiders
And the units that don't tick every box are still very good and well priced for what you get.
My issue with Eldar is the fact that they are essentially Space Marines, with a crazy amount of good wargear, options for anything, good psychic powers, fast units, ext ext. They are overall a very strong codex that really doesn't lack anything.
However, the reason they are considered overpowered and why I consider their book very poorly balanced is the Wave Serpent. Every other unit has a specific role, or job, that it does well, and relies on other things to do what it cannot. Their dedicated Transport is more powerful and versatile than their Heavy Support options. Fast, crazy amount of strong firepower, and very survivable. Hence, people just spam them, because honestly, why not?
The combination of excellent firepower, above average durability (reliant on Serpents on psychic powers), and good statlines; S3 T3 is their only weakness, and on a something with a 2+ re-rollable cover save, it really doesn't matter.
It really is the synergy between stupendous mobility and incredibly powerful codex psychic powers which makes eldar broken. A dire avenger or a guardian is very powerful and cost effective, but on a bike with 2+ re-rollables or in an indestructible skimmer, it becomes broken.
It's actually useful to consider Daemons in comparison; their units are all extremely well equipped or have superb statlines, but they lack anywhere near the same mobilty as Eldar, and can only ever make one unit stupid durable using the Grimoire of True Names, rather than any unit within range or joined by a psyker, as such, Daemons have some weaknesses; they're still a very powerful army, but if you yourself are sufficiently mobile or have enough volume of fire, you can stop them. Nothing but a tailored list can really stop Eldar without damned good luck, or an ideal combination of mission and table.
BoomWolf wrote: 240 for 2 S10AP1 shots is not a bad cost.
A railgun hammerhead pays 125 points base to have a single one.
240 points to knock an average of one hullpoint off an AV 12 vehicle a turn is not a good cost.
Hammerheads are considered a lackluster unit for a reason, and even then you can at least reliably buff it into BS5, ignores cover etc.
I'm sorry, as an AV13 wall skimmer player, I will not unpack my models if the opponent is bringing ignores cover railguns. It's the only thing I really dread about Tau.
wuestenfux wrote: As said Serpent spam, psyker spam, msu Jetbike spam, pseudo rending troop guns, D scythes, Wraithknights with their toughness and fast movement, Fire Dragons, a units with melta weapons, Warp Spiders, and not to forget Warwalkers with their decent shooting can really be a pain for the enemy.
No other army out there has comparable capabilities.
See this is what I don't get.
Wave Serpent, more than 1 Wraithknight, spamming Jetbikes, bladestorm, mantletarch etc. I agree, but the others?
Eldar being a codex that is psyker heavy has been a thing since as long as Eldar have existed. In fact 6th edition hit the warlocks pretty hard with the nerfbat since they lost their ability to automatically be able to cast their psychic powers and could only cast it with 66% success, and they got EVEN WORSE in 7th because their chance of successfully casting a psychic power was reduced from 66% to 50%.
D scythe WG are costly as hell and useless without a WS. This makes the unit about as costly as a Landraider filled with Assault Terminators, and those are very powerful as well so I dont see why people are complaining. Sure, it gets messy when you attach some Farseers and have them cast their shenanigans to buff the unit even more, but then SM or CSM players have access to 3+ inv. EW Stormshield artifacts or daemon weapons that wreck face in cc,
Fire Dragons have been around since the 90s. The only thing the current Eldar codex changed was give them 3+ sv instead of 4+, but at appropriate extra points cost. So they actually became worse as their primary job was to alpha strike an enemy tank and reduce it to slag right after disembarkation, but now that the whole unit is more costly, they wont earn their points back as effectively as before, and most likely still get wiped out in a turn of enemy fire.
Again, Warp Spiders havent changed much either.
And Warwalkers actually got worse because their "if hit by a weapon higher than S8, reduce it to S8" ruling got reduced to a 5+ inv save, which is pretty useless since they'll be behind 4+ cover most of the time anyway.
I seriously hope GW does not remove codex powers from the Eldar dex next edition. Because if they do, I'll be seriously pissed. Eldar and their set of iconic psychic powers was what brought me into this game in the first place.
I love how everyone is hating on Eldar. The really aren't that bad if you don't spam them fiercely. Wave Serpents did take a hit with the Jink save this edition so if you shoot at them and I junk I cant fire as effectively next turn. I also can't think of a more expensive dedicated transport that can't be gotten elsewhere. Landraiders sure but look at the guns on that thing and armor 14 as well. Its deffinately a battle tank and a scatter laser wave serpent (which is what everyone cries about) won't even touch a LR. its 145 points for a standard use Wave Serpent. I think we more then pay the points for these Tanks (yes they have the tank profile).
Xerics wrote: I love how everyone is hating on Eldar. The really aren't that bad if you don't spam them fiercely. Wave Serpents did take a hit with the Jink save this edition so if you shoot at them and I junk I cant fire as effectively next turn. I also can't think of a more expensive dedicated transport that can't be gotten elsewhere. Landraiders sure but look at the guns on that thing and armor 14 as well. Its deffinately a battle tank and a scatter laser wave serpent (which is what everyone cries about) won't even touch a LR. its 145 points for a standard use Wave Serpent. I think we more then pay the points for these Tanks (yes they have the tank profile).
Wave Serpents got a boost from the new Jink rules - they can now choose to jink if they are shot at even first turn, even if not moved. Multiples mean that they may not be shot at and so fire their powerful guns
they are AV 12 which is great and not easy to kill - - read all the rest of the thread and see why people don;t enjoy playing against cheesy Serpent spam - its a hard counter to fun.
They are also fast
They are also Objective secured
They also have stupidly ranged guns wwhich ignore cover, can't be knocked out , have stupid arcs
My problems with Codex: Eldar begin and end with Wave Serpents. Everything else in the codex is powerful but manageable. Putting a magical free weapon that in any other codex would cost well over 60 points on a designated transport is not. It is simply one of the worst design mistakes in current 40k.
Xerics wrote: I love how everyone is hating on Eldar. The really aren't that bad if you don't spam them fiercely. Wave Serpents did take a hit with the Jink save this edition so if you shoot at them and I junk I cant fire as effectively next turn. I also can't think of a more expensive dedicated transport that can't be gotten elsewhere. Landraiders sure but look at the guns on that thing and armor 14 as well. Its deffinately a battle tank and a scatter laser wave serpent (which is what everyone cries about) won't even touch a LR. its 145 points for a standard use Wave Serpent. I think we more then pay the points for these Tanks (yes they have the tank profile).
So you would rather pay 110 points extra to increse ur AV by 2, lose a crap ton of shooting, lose jink, and become extremely susceptible to drop melta (which is everywhere in the game). Ya no thanks.
Wave Serpent vs Land Raider
Over 100 pts cheaper
Wave Serpent - 3++ jink, ignore pens on 2+ if facing drop pods, 12 12 10
Land Raider - 14 14 14, can fire at one extra target
Wave Serpent - 4 Str 6 (twin Links everything), 3 Str 6 (rending on 6), D6Str 7 (ignore cover)
Land Raider - 2 str 9 ap 2 and 3 str 5 ap 4.
In what way are you paying for your tanks? An opponent sets 4 LR down, I am the happiest man alive because I have an easy game, Someone puts 4 WS down and I cry.
How about 2 Dark Eldar Raiders vs 1 Wave Serpent
Raider - 1 Lance ea (str 8 ap 2) so 2 shots. wooptie freaking doo. Oh and on top of that go ahead and blow me up on a 6 which kills 7/10 occupents.
Wave Serpents should have no shields period. Even then they are more than worth their points.
I honestly don't care if Eldar fanboys are going to defend Wave Serpents. The rest of the codex is okay, but the Wave Serpent is far from any form of balanced.
I look forward to their 7th edition book and when Wave Serpents get nerfed, and people forget how to play anything else from their book.
Of course, GW could not fix it, and I will seriously lose hope in this game altogether
krodarklorr wrote: I honestly don't care if Eldar fanboys are going to defend Wave Serpents. The rest of the codex is okay, but the Wave Serpent is far from any form of balanced.
I look forward to their 7th edition book and when Wave Serpents get nerfed, and people forget how to play anything else from their book.
Of course, GW could not fix it, and I will seriously lose hope in this game altogether
I know this is GW, and one should never underestimate their ability to cash grab, but aren't all of the 6th Ed Codices effectively the 7th Ed ones as well? As in, Eldar already, technically, have their 7th Ed Codex? Which means Serpent Spam isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Which blows goats for bus fare. But for GW, having people buying Wave Serpents in droves must be pretty good, since they are $45 USD a pop. So I doubt that even if Eldar get a Codex update that Spam is going to get fixed.
krodarklorr wrote: I honestly don't care if Eldar fanboys are going to defend Wave Serpents. The rest of the codex is okay, but the Wave Serpent is far from any form of balanced.
I look forward to their 7th edition book and when Wave Serpents get nerfed, and people forget how to play anything else from their book.
Of course, GW could not fix it, and I will seriously lose hope in this game altogether
I know this is GW, and one should never underestimate their ability to cash grab, but aren't all of the 6th Ed Codices effectively the 7th Ed ones as well? As in, Eldar already, technically, have their 7th Ed Codex? Which means Serpent Spam isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Which blows goats for bus fare. But for GW, having people buying Wave Serpents in droves must be pretty good, since they are $45 USD a pop. So I doubt that even if Eldar get a Codex update that Spam is going to get fixed.
Nah they'll just switch it to another skimmer, it was holofalcons back in 4th that were OP, then 6th goes Wave Serpents.
Kelly will just find a new way to make his favorite faction OP.
Hollismason wrote: Well considering Dark Eldar are battle brothers look forward to the combined mix of Dark Eldar and Eldar.
Invisible Beast Packs and Deep Striking no Scatter Fire Dragons come to mind.
.......beast pack got nerfed, no one is going to be running beast pack deathstar anymore. Also why the hell would I waste a no scatter deep strike on fire dragons? The entire squad would be T3 with nothing to protect them, I can suicide fire dragons already with a wave serpent. If your going to cry about the WWP at least pick something more remarkable like a full squad of wraithguard with 5 spirit seers and a farseer. Still a giant waste of points but w/e.
Frankly I think Wraithknights are also part of the problem. Namely because its T8. With a toughness that high it basically is av12 and is immune to most anti infantry weapons. You basically have to fight it like its a vehicle
Except it ignores vehicle damage like shaken and immobilization, can't get one shot without a special rule, has 6"HP"s, moves 12 and ignores terrain, can punch crap in the face with S10 ap2 at i5.
The wraithknight is basically a super-heavy walker in every way except officially. And it also gets a 3+ armor save on top of that. Having to deal with that and wave serpant spam is extremely difficult without just tailoring for it.
BlaxicanX wrote: How do you feel about the Wraithlord's T8 3+ sv?
raped by grav centurions in 1 round of shooting. Alternately, 3 Lascannon HWSs can take it out in 2 turns of shooting. Without primaris psykers guiding them or benefiting from any orders, that is. EDIT: thought you meant Wraithknights, which I based this reply on
I find Riptides, despite -2T, with their 2+/3++ AND Stim Injectors far more infuriating.
BlaxicanX wrote: How do you feel about the Wraithlord's T8 3+ sv?
Wraithlords are fine - it's not the Wraithknights Toughness I have a problem with, it's that Toughness in addition to the mobility it has.
@OP Just the Wave Serpent that gives so much durability and firepower whilst being undercosted. As others had said, everything else is powerful but manageable but having a AV12/12/10 Skimmer with an Ignore Cover weapon that can't actually be destroyed (but can get Twin-Linked all the same) as well as reducing penetrating hits to glancing hits, is not ok and a massive design flaw by GW (are we really surprised by this?)
BlaxicanX wrote: How do you feel about the Wraithlord's T8 3+ sv?
The speed is what stops wraith lords from being a problem. I can actually use tactics like tarpits and speed bumps to deal with it. With the WK I can't use tactics like that so I have to actually kill it which is when the 6Ws becomes an issue.
At this stage we don't really know. GW used to have an ~5 year release cycle for codices and ~4 years for core rules, so if your codex came out at the end of the previous edition, you probably wouldn't get a new codex until the start of the next edition.
But now GW have halved the release time between codices and 7th edition has halved the time for new core rules. Once Necrons and BA come out, that'll be the last 2 5th ed codices and we're not sure where GW will go from there.
At this stage we don't really know. GW used to have an ~5 year release cycle for codices and ~4 years for core rules, so if your codex came out at the end of the previous edition, you probably wouldn't get a new codex until the start of the next edition.
But now GW have halved the release time between codices and 7th edition has halved the time for new core rules. Once Necrons and BA come out, that'll be the last 2 5th ed codices and we're not sure where GW will go from there.
I am looking forward to 2015 with anticipation and curiosity, but mostly dread.
Not in a snowball's chance in hell am I going to replace my €39 hardcover full colour codexes anytime soon.
However, given this very fact, and:
1) the new 7th ed codexes having the same front cover style and format (despite different internal layout)
2) none of the new 7th ed codexes really adding anything radically new to armies, but rather removing stuff
I'm guessing GW arent going to update the 6th ones till 8th edition rolls out and codexes look wholly different.
Because if they do, I think they're doomed. Because you can't expect Eldar, Tau, SM and Chaos Daemon players to willingly pay money to update their still useful and playable codexes just because GW demands it. Especially if the only things that are going to change is more streamlining, more removal of "unnecessary stuff" and artwork replaced by pwetty miniature pictures. CSM and DA players? Maybe
I think mostly every army has a good way to deal with Wave Serpents efficiently.
The issue is that the people who play those armies refuse to adapt to Wave Serpents.
They prefer to keep their (very good) lists that kill anything else, yet could not handle Wave Serpents.
In my opinion, that does not make the Wave Serpents OverPowered, just disruptive annoying combo-breaking little bastards.
One of the main reasons the Wave Serpent is such a "problem" is that it's a unit that can be taken x9 in a standard CAD.
Playing unbound completely removes the edge the WS confers to the Eldar.
Yes it's still a very good unit, but at 210 points standard with a 5-pack of gakky Dire Avengers, it's no match for 165 points Necron flyers with 5 Necron warriors, or 90 point AB's or many other units in the game.
morgoth wrote: The issue is that the people who play those armies refuse to adapt to Wave Serpents.
They prefer to keep their (very good) lists that kill anything else, yet could not handle Wave Serpents.
Yes. Clearly every single 40K player just hasn't taken any counters for one of the most meta defining units in the game. No one has bothered to try adapting to deal with Wave Serpants for over a year because it makes their lists better.
morgoth wrote: I think mostly every army has a good way to deal with Wave Serpents efficiently.
The issue is that the people who play those armies refuse to adapt to Wave Serpents.
They prefer to keep their (very good) lists that kill anything else, yet could not handle Wave Serpents.
In my opinion, that does not make the Wave Serpents OverPowered, just disruptive annoying combo-breaking little bastards.
One of the main reasons the Wave Serpent is such a "problem" is that it's a unit that can be taken x9 in a standard CAD.
Playing unbound completely removes the edge the WS confers to the Eldar.
Yes it's still a very good unit, but at 210 points standard with a 5-pack of gakky Dire Avengers, it's no match for 165 points Necron flyers with 5 Necron warriors, or 90 point AB's or many other units in the game.
So powerful the entire 40k meta has to shift around it = Not over powered.
Seems legit.
Yes. Clearly every single 40K player just hasn't taken any counters for one of the most meta defining units in the game. No one has bothered to try adapting to deal with Wave Serpants for over a year because it makes their lists better.
>end_sarcasm
The majority of whiners have not yet taken counters to IK, WK or WS.
So far, there have been zero major tournaments where Dark Eldar alliances or CAD+allies were not a defining factor (even though Kopach won NOVA without that, it was because his opponent hit the low probability that he would get none of his good spells).
Show me a Demon or Necron list optimized to nuke Wave Serpents, and tell me how it could really fail at it, and then maybe you'll have a point.
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MWHistorian wrote: So powerful the entire 40k meta has to shift around it = Not over powered.
Seems legit.
The entire meta revolved around something else before, which wasn't OP either.
A shift in meta does not imply anything OP.
OP could be used to describe something that lacks efficient counters.
As long as counters are available in the game (and there are lots), calling something OP is just silly.
Of course a list that is optomized to kill WS will kill WS - thats what it is optomized to do. However it then leave it lacking against most other competitive lists. Whereas the WS list will be good against everything except the one list that is optomized to beat it.
Also note that you said deamons and necrons... not anything away from top tier. If any codex outside top tier really struggles to deal with it - it is overpowered (not writing it short hand as I think we may be forgetting what it stands for).
morgoth wrote: I think mostly every army has a good way to deal with Wave Serpents efficiently.
The issue is that the people who play those armies refuse to adapt to Wave Serpents.
Not every army has a good way of dealing with everything out there, first off. As a Necron, my main way of dealing with vehicles is Gauss, which glances on 6s, but can't get through a 3+ cover say reliably. None of my stuff can, as I DON'T have anything with ignores cover, except a Sweeping attack from an Overlord, but I have to be decently close. By the time I'm close, your "not overpowered" transport has glanced most of my vehicles to death because I can't do anything about it.
So no, I don't have an "efficient" way to deal with it.
It's just not the wave serpent spam, its they have so many good units that are spammable. AND they have so much synergy going on with their codex.
One example is I get hit by the Wraithlord/Wraith Knight spam. That's a lot of MC that I have to burn through everyone of their wounds wheras my vehicles always have the option of exploding.
Another thing going for the Eldar is the ability to run and shoot with so many units. This gives them so many strategic options. They are good at siezing objectives and can get in to hand to hand fast if they want - or stay out of hand to hand if they want.
morgoth wrote: I think mostly every army has a good way to deal with Wave Serpents efficiently.
The issue is that the people who play those armies refuse to adapt to Wave Serpents.
Not every army has a good way of dealing with everything out there, first off. As a Necron, my main way of dealing with vehicles is Gauss, which glances on 6s, but can't get through a 3+ cover say reliably. None of my stuff can, as I DON'T have anything with ignores cover, except a Sweeping attack from an Overlord, but I have to be decently close. By the time I'm close, your "not overpowered" transport has glanced most of my vehicles to death because I can't do anything about it.
So no, I don't have an "efficient" way to deal with it.
Sure. Annihilation Barges, Night Scythes, Doom Scythes, even flayed ones are good against WS because they can totally mess up his retreat.
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We wrote: It's just not the wave serpent spam, its they have so many good units that are spammable. AND they have so much synergy going on with their codex.
One example is I get hit by the Wraithlord/Wraith Knight spam. That's a lot of MC that I have to burn through everyone of their wounds wheras my vehicles always have the option of exploding.
Another thing going for the Eldar is the ability to run and shoot with so many units. This gives them so many strategic options. They are good at siezing objectives and can get in to hand to hand fast if they want - or stay out of hand to hand if they want.
If somebody plays Wraithlords, you should be able to win every game. Otherwise, your army list is bad.
WK spam is 3 WK in a CAD, anything more than that and you're playing unbound, it's not that hard to take down those MCs if you bring the right tools.
Eldar are not good at taking objectives because they lack anything that can just stand on the objective, they make up for that by going for objectives that are out of charge threat range.
While their mobility unquestionably is their hallmark advantage, even slow units can be on most objectives T2.
morgoth wrote: I think mostly every army has a good way to deal with Wave Serpents efficiently.
The issue is that the people who play those armies refuse to adapt to Wave Serpents.
Not every army has a good way of dealing with everything out there, first off. As a Necron, my main way of dealing with vehicles is Gauss, which glances on 6s, but can't get through a 3+ cover say reliably. None of my stuff can, as I DON'T have anything with ignores cover, except a Sweeping attack from an Overlord, but I have to be decently close. By the time I'm close, your "not overpowered" transport has glanced most of my vehicles to death because I can't do anything about it.
So no, I don't have an "efficient" way to deal with it.
Sure. Annihilation Barges, Night Scythes, Doom Scythes, even flayed ones are good against WS because they can totally mess up his retreat.
If you think those are counters to wave serpents (especially flayed ones, which is one of the worst units in the game) you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
Poly Ranger wrote: Of course a list that is optomized to kill WS will kill WS - thats what it is optomized to do. However it then leave it lacking against most other competitive lists. Whereas the WS list will be good against everything except the one list that is optomized to beat it.
Also note that you said deamons and necrons... not anything away from top tier. If any codex outside top tier really struggles to deal with it - it is overpowered (not writing it short hand as I think we may be forgetting what it stands for).
It's optimized, not optomized optamized or whatever FOTM spelling you came up with.
No top tier codex struggles with Wave Serpents.
Lacking against some lists and good against others is the nature of every single army list out there.
The fact that people choose to NOT make Wave Serpents a focus of their army list - thereby opening other weaknesses - is the main reason Wave Serpents are doing so well.
WS Spam is/was extremely easy to beat with even v6 Dark Eldar without allies, you just have to be planning for it. (if you say no, imagine 3x full Khymera beastpack, deep striking blasterborn and the rest as one huge wave of doom).
Having a unit that shifts the meta does not make that unit OP, and even less the whole codex.
morgoth wrote: WK spam is 3 WK in a CAD, anything more than that and you're playing unbound, it's not that hard to take down those MCs if you bring the right tools.
Or, you are playing against multiple CADs. Or CAD plus 1+ Eldar Ghost Warriors. Or 4+ Eldar Ghost Warriors.
And that is not even including the Planetstrike Detachments.
morgoth wrote: WK spam is 3 WK in a CAD, anything more than that and you're playing unbound, it's not that hard to take down those MCs if you bring the right tools.
Or, you are playing against multiple CADs. Or CAD plus 1+ Eldar Ghost Warriors. Or 4+ Eldar Ghost Warriors.
And that is not even including the Planetstrike Detachments.
That or unbound is the same to me.
Either way, gives both sides the exact same amount of room for random cheese.
Sadly, it would only take minor tweaking to make Elder go from OP to just a good army.
1. Make the serpent shield one use only (use it as a gun or a shield, its gone). Raise WS point cost by 15-20.
2. Make bladestorm only auto wound on a six, not AP2, or make it only available to dire avengers.
3. Remove spirit seers ability to make WG troops from the core codex.
4. Make jet bikes a Fast Attack choice.
5. Make the WK a lord of war.
6. Increase points cost of just about all of the aspect warriors.
We've had lots of threads on how to balance Eldar. The consensus answer is usually give the Serpent Shield a 12" range, possibly one-shot as well, and the Serpent is balanced. And the codex as a whole becomes clearly-top-tier instead of simply OP.
Consensus also seemed to be v7 actually nerfed Eldar, but even nerfed, its still #1.
-Mobility on Maelstrom helps, but their mobility did more to dominate last-turn-objective-grabing.
-Only Wraithknight and Serpent are notably survivable. knight isn't a troop, and suffers low model count. Serpent is only super survivable out of charge range. This lack of survivability makes Eternal War better than Maelstrom.
-Jink makes our skimmers more survivable, but costs dakka to do so. I'd call it a minor nerf, as our skimmers are usually spammed, but its certainly debatable.
-While Invis is broken, Psykers got massively nerfed this edition. Start looking at how many powers actually get cast each turn, and its much worse. Two Farseers shouldn't be able to get both Fortune and Invis off every turn, and certainly can't get off as many powers as last edition.
Eldar romped the second half of 6th, and were nerfed, IMO, in 7th (they were obviously written for 7th). But they're still #1. Just by a narrower margin.
Hope you don't mind me dropping a subset of changes I'd love:
-Serpent Shield - 6" heavy *1* torrent, 3+ to downgrade a pen. Still a strong oh-gak shot, but no longer a gunboat. We have other skimmers (albeit not terribly competitive) for that. As for pen reduction, with 7th, its not as critical.
-Wraithknight -> Lord of War. We all know it should be (along with Riptides, Dreadknights, and Imperial Knights).
-Jetbikes -> 4+ Sv. Must have 5+ models, or count as FA.
I have a lot more ideas I'd love to see, but its really the Serpent that needs help.
morgoth wrote: I think mostly every army has a good way to deal with Wave Serpents efficiently.
The issue is that the people who play those armies refuse to adapt to Wave Serpents.
They prefer to keep their (very good) lists that kill anything else, yet could not handle Wave Serpents.
In my opinion, that does not make the Wave Serpents OverPowered, just disruptive annoying combo-breaking little bastards.
So powerful the entire 40k meta has to shift around it = Not over powered.
Seems legit.
I like how Morgoth's the only guy sticking up for Wave Serpents, even when the other Eldar players are admitting they're blatantly overpowered. Wave Serpents are too hard to kill and have way too much killing power.
Poly Ranger wrote: Of course a list that is optomized to kill WS will kill WS - thats what it is optomized to do. However it then leave it lacking against most other competitive lists. Whereas the WS list will be good against everything except the one list that is optomized to beat it.
Also note that you said deamons and necrons... not anything away from top tier. If any codex outside top tier really struggles to deal with it - it is overpowered (not writing it short hand as I think we may be forgetting what it stands for).
This, a thousand times this. Morgoth, you seem to think that because some things can kill Wave Serpents, they're totally fair. However, if you waste all your points trying to kill Wave Serpents, you'll suck versus say an Ork or Nid list, or against flyers, etc. Sure, if you know you're playing a Wave Serpent list today, then you can tailor your list accordingly, but in a tournament you might not even make it to the OP Eldar player if you completely tailor your list to kill them, because you'll get destroyed by TAC lists.
This probably doesn't have much merit with you guys, but this is coming straight from a Necron player (Same goes for Tyranids as well).
I actually browsed through the Eldar codex and checked out their weapon section. Pages of just "Ap 2 3 3 2 2 2 3 2 3 2 4 4 3 2 3 4 3 2"
And anything with AP5 had Bladestorm. Like, wut? As a Necron player, having anything AP 3 or lower is a godsend, yet Eldar apparently floss their teeth with the stuff.
Completely off the topic of Wave Serpents, but I felt like getting it off my chest.
Just rewinding a minute... how can a flayed ones unit block its retreat? It is a fast skimmer which can move 24" in any direction in a turn and can move over any unit...
Also apologies that I spelt optimized with an O. Seems strange that thats the first thing you focused on - almost as if you wanted to flame. But thanks for the re-education.
There is nothing remotely similar to a wave serpent in the game due to that shield, telling somebody they are not OP because they have to focus their entire list on it in a tac situation seems to be a way of hiding from the truth.
krodarklorr wrote: This probably doesn't have much merit with you guys, but this is coming straight from a Necron player (Same goes for Tyranids as well).
I actually browsed through the Eldar codex and checked out their weapon section. Pages of just "Ap 2 3 3 2 2 2 3 2 3 2 4 4 3 2 3 4 3 2"
And anything with AP5 had Bladestorm. Like, wut? As a Necron player, having anything AP 3 or lower is a godsend, yet Eldar apparently floss their teeth with the stuff.
Completely off the topic of Wave Serpents, but I felt like getting it off my chest.
Yeah, for the most technologically advanced race in the galaxy, the necrons sure seem to have not discovered the secrets of plasma.
krodarklorr wrote: This probably doesn't have much merit with you guys, but this is coming straight from a Necron player (Same goes for Tyranids as well).
I actually browsed through the Eldar codex and checked out their weapon section. Pages of just "Ap 2 3 3 2 2 2 3 2 3 2 4 4 3 2 3 4 3 2"
And anything with AP5 had Bladestorm. Like, wut? As a Necron player, having anything AP 3 or lower is a godsend, yet Eldar apparently floss their teeth with the stuff.
Completely off the topic of Wave Serpents, but I felt like getting it off my chest.
Yeah, for the most technologically advanced race in the galaxy, the necrons sure seem to have not discovered the secrets of plasma.
God, I read "the most technological race in the galaxy" and I was hoping to God that you weren't referring to Eldar. Thank you for that, sir. Anyway, you have a good point. I find that odd that they have nothing plasma related, and Gauss, which tears things apart at a molecular level, is at max, AP3. And there's very few things that can take it. I mean, there's the HGC, but there's even fewer of those. >.<
Because people are whiny when they lose. Eldar are NOT broken. Not even Malefic Daemonology and Knights are as powerful as people say. The only problem is that some people decide to bring lists that nothing can ever beat, mostly spamming flyers and FMC.
I don't know what you play against, but a lot of my weaponry is ap 5/6/-. Just look at the broken Wave Serpent. 3 pseudorending ap5 shots, and the rest is ap6/-.
Eldar have a lot of different low-ap weapons, but generally have to choose between low-ap and high-volume. Marines might have fewer low-ap options, for example, but every Tac squad can take a Plasma or Melts gun.
As for bladestorm, remember that a bolter round is more deadly to Dire Avenger than a shuriken round is to a Marine. And DAs cost just as much as a non-AKSKNF marine (13 ppm - price of a CSM). With a much shorter range (18 vs 24+), no access to special/heavy weapons, and can't hurt av11 at range, or av10 in melee.
Guardians are cheaper (9ppm - 2/3rds of a Marine), but die more than twice as fast to boltguns than Marines die to Shurikens. And with a 12" range, they shouldn't get a chance.
The only other Bladestorm weapon is the Shuriken Cannon. 24" a3 s6 ap5. It wounds on a 6 anyways due to its S. It has lower base AP and much shorter range (24 vs 36 is critical) than a Heavy Bolter, for +1 S, +pseudo rending. Its basically a weaker Assault Cannon (1 less shot, 1 less AP, not-real rending for vehicles). So somewhere between a Heavy Bolter and an Assault Cannon. Pseudo-rending doesn't really seem out of place.
I don't think pseudo-rending is really a problem. Sure, it means if you drop a t8 3+ demon backfield, troops aren't worthless. But put a Rhino back there, and all the guardians or DAs in the game can't mach a tac squad. Even without special/heavy weapons
This, a thousand times this. Morgoth, you seem to think that because some things can kill Wave Serpents, they're totally fair. However, if you waste all your points trying to kill Wave Serpents, you'll suck versus say an Ork or Nid list, or against flyers, etc. Sure, if you know you're playing a Wave Serpent list today, then you can tailor your list accordingly, but in a tournament you might not even make it to the OP Eldar player if you completely tailor your list to kill them, because you'll get destroyed by TAC lists.
And then you can proceed to whine about Orks or Nids because they're OP because your list cannot handle them, just like WS now.
This, a thousand times this. Morgoth, you seem to think that because some things can kill Wave Serpents, they're totally fair. However, if you waste all your points trying to kill Wave Serpents, you'll suck versus say an Ork or Nid list, or against flyers, etc. Sure, if you know you're playing a Wave Serpent list today, then you can tailor your list accordingly, but in a tournament you might not even make it to the OP Eldar player if you completely tailor your list to kill them, because you'll get destroyed by TAC lists.
And then you can proceed to whine about Orks or Nids because they're OP because your list cannot handle them, just like WS now.
The idea of a Tac list is dead, and that's a problem. Most tac lists can't deal with WS spam. In fact, most lists will have a lot of problems with WS spam unless you tailor your list against it. Nids, while not useless, aren't near the power level Eldar can reach.
krodarklorr wrote: This probably doesn't have much merit with you guys, but this is coming straight from a Necron player (Same goes for Tyranids as well).
I actually browsed through the Eldar codex and checked out their weapon section. Pages of just "Ap 2 3 3 2 2 2 3 2 3 2 4 4 3 2 3 4 3 2"
And anything with AP5 had Bladestorm. Like, wut? As a Necron player, having anything AP 3 or lower is a godsend, yet Eldar apparently floss their teeth with the stuff.
Completely off the topic of Wave Serpents, but I felt like getting it off my chest.
Honestly, it's not as huge a deal as it sounds though, since Eldar are so fragile and only 1/9 shots are going to be AP2.
bibotot wrote: Because people are whiny when they lose. Eldar are NOT broken. Not even Malefic Daemonology and Knights are as powerful as people say. The only problem is that some people decide to bring lists that nothing can ever beat, mostly spamming flyers and FMC.
Most people would say that Eldar are not OP, it's Wave Serpents largely which are.
This, a thousand times this. Morgoth, you seem to think that because some things can kill Wave Serpents, they're totally fair. However, if you waste all your points trying to kill Wave Serpents, you'll suck versus say an Ork or Nid list, or against flyers, etc. Sure, if you know you're playing a Wave Serpent list today, then you can tailor your list accordingly, but in a tournament you might not even make it to the OP Eldar player if you completely tailor your list to kill them, because you'll get destroyed by TAC lists.
And then you can proceed to whine about Orks or Nids because they're OP because your list cannot handle them, just like WS now.
I don't know whether to or to
Look, when an army's dedicated transport can put out more anti-tank shots than an entire Devastator Squad, for cheaper, and with twin-linked everything (meaning that you're going to hit nearly every shot), that's pretty crazy. Then take into account that it can move 24" in a turn (maybe more?), flying over cover with objective secured and it can get pretty crazy. Then take into account that it can get a 3+ cover save (even more with Eldar psychic buffs) and downgrades pens to glances on a 2+, and it just becomes a pain in the ass to kill. What you get is a unit which has a ton of firepower, amazing mobility and durability for a very good price.
You also mention "counters" to Wave Serpents. DSing anti-tank is probably the best answer, but it is way less reliable vs Wave Serpents than it would be against basically anything else due to Serpent Shields, jinking and the usual counters to that tactic (bubble-wrapping, reserves, etc). Aside from that, you're going to have to either nail them with a disproportionate number of ranged anti-tank shots (and hope that your shooters aren't gunned down first) or assault them (good luck with that, between the ranged firepower and mobility).
After that, your only hope to deal with them is AV14 (which is generally overpriced and is hard-countered by lance weapons, meltas and S10, which Eldar have in abundance), 2+ saves (which are hard countered by all the AP2 in the Codex and which still are going to go down to volume of fire) and just hiding behind cover and praying to the Emperor that you don't die (and again, they'll just flank your position when it's best for them).
Shrödinger's Wave Serpent. It moves 30" fires three weapons at full BS, has its serpent shield up and fires it as well, benefits from night fighting stealth and operates on an infinite surface.
morgoth wrote: Shrödinger's Wave Serpent. It moves 30" fires three weapons at full BS, has its serpent shield up and fires it as well, benefits from night fighting stealth and operates on an infinite surface.
I think you may be running out of straw for your strawmen, it CAN do all those things, not all at once but it can do the various things it needs to.
morgoth wrote: Shrödinger's Wave Serpent. It moves 30" fires three weapons at full BS, has its serpent shield up and fires it as well, benefits from night fighting stealth and operates on an infinite surface.
I think you may be running out of straw for your strawmen, it CAN do all those things, not all at once but it can do the various things it needs to.
Here's a real Wave Serpent: moves 12", stays out of charge range and only fires its scatter laser and serpent shield every turn. Never has any protection fron pens, loses 75% of its DPS when it jinks.
Much less impressive than your theoretical WS isn't it.
Morgoth, alright, lets look at this in a different way. Nobody denies the falcon is worth its points right? People don't take them because of the existence of the wave serpent, but they are still appropriatly costed (if not a tad cheap).
Now a wave serpent costs 145pts with shuriken cannon, scatter laser, and holofields.
A falcon costs 160pts for the same equipment options and the same stats.
The differences are the Wave Serpents get a serpent shield, DT slot and 6 extra capacity, whilst the falcon gets a pulse laser.
Lets say the pulse laser costs 30pts (based on two SM missile launchers costing 30 and losing frag for ap2 on the krak). That means without the pulse laser the falcon would cost 130pts. Thus the serp shield, transport cap of 6 and moving from heavy to DT costs the serpent a WHOOPING 15pts.
Now if I could buy a serp shield, transport cap of 6 AND the moving of any of my heavy tanks in ANY dex to the DT slot - I would pay it hands down on every vehicle I ever take!
Are you truely telling us all that 15pts for the option of either d6+1 60" tl st7 ignores cover shots or the ability to convert 5/6 of glances to pens, and also the increased capacity of 6 AND the move from HS to DT is not overpowered? Really???
And thats not even mentioning the fact it should cost more on a fast skimmer.
morgoth wrote: Shrödinger's Wave Serpent. It moves 30" fires three weapons at full BS, has its serpent shield up and fires it as well, benefits from night fighting stealth and operates on an infinite surface.
I think you may be running out of straw for your strawmen, it CAN do all those things, not all at once but it can do the various things it needs to.
Obviously I'm not saying that it does all of those at once, it's the versatility which makes them so effective. Hell, it doesn't need to do all of those at once to be insane. Even if it does jink, the other 3-5 Wave Serpents in the army are going to make up for any lost DPS.
Sigvatr wrote:Going with Andilus here. Eldar as an army aren't overpowered, it's mostly Wave Serpents that are way over the top and need an extremely harsh nerf.
Mhmm, the army is fine. I actually quite like the glass cannon status of their infantry, it makes them very fair and fun to fight against. The Wave Serpent turns that into fibre-glass though.
If you're taking your Waveserpents with all of its transport capacity full at the top of turn one, then fine, you can't help that it is your only transport choice and Kelly made it a solid gold, platinum edged über unit.
If you're running them with just 5 DA (or even Guardians) in them? That's a different conversation we're going to have over the course of the game.
Not really sure where the notion of "fragile" Eldar is coming from. Guardians are fragile....and that's about it. 4 of the 7 aspects have a 3+ save. Jetbikes are essentially fast marines. WS are easily the most durable dedicated transport south of a land raider. And then we get to wraith units, with lords and knights having a toughness value typically only found on gargantuan MCs, while the lowly guard just has the same T as a greater daemon.
... And AV11 superheavies, and widespread t3 5+, and most things being ID'd by s6. And nothing with an av11+ rear armor.
Dire Avengers cost Marine points for a t3 4+.
Glass cannon is the DE schtick. Outside Wraith armies, Eldar usually use their mobility, misdirection, and superior tech to be high unkillable, until they commit with explosive fury, at which point they are very vulnerable, if they failed to handle every threat.
The problem is that the Serpent has the explosive fury while being nigh unkillable.
morgoth wrote: Shrödinger's Wave Serpent. It moves 30" fires three weapons at full BS, has its serpent shield up and fires it as well, benefits from night fighting stealth and operates on an infinite surface.
I think you may be running out of straw for your strawmen, it CAN do all those things, not all at once but it can do the various things it needs to.
Here's a real Wave Serpent: moves 12", stays out of charge range and only fires its scatter laser and serpent shield every turn. Never has any protection fron pens, loses 75% of its DPS when it jinks.
Much less impressive than your theoretical WS isn't it.
Yes if WS was like a Lemman Russ or a predator and was max 2 in list. Only it is not there is 4+ of them in the list and a ++2inv deathstar to deal with.
Bharring wrote: ... And AV11 superheavies, and widespread t3 5+, and most things being ID'd by s6. And nothing with an av11+ rear armor.
Dire Avengers cost Marine points for a t3 4+.
Glass cannon is the DE schtick. Outside Wraith armies, Eldar usually use their mobility, misdirection, and superior tech to be high unkillable, until they commit with explosive fury, at which point they are very vulnerable, if they failed to handle every threat.
The problem is that the Serpent has the explosive fury while being nigh unkillable.
T3 5+? Typically it's T3 4+ with 3+ elsewhere. Really the rare 5+ you'll see is Guardians and that's it.
Dire Avengers cost CSM points (-1 off SM), and generally come out of it with better guns and mobility in an army that benefits from drastic buffs.
Dire Avengers costing CSM points means that they're expensive and CSM are gak.
But yes, Eldar are a fragile army. T3 4+ saves are fragile, and more importantly their small numbers makes them fragile. Wave Serpents aren't even that durable. They're extremely easy to glance to death or punk in assault, and avoid those things by utilizing its vast speed and long range to dance out of their range.
... exactly like a fragile, highly mobile unit is supposed to do.
Still not defending Serpents though. Frankly, it's not even the "knock pens to glances" part that bothers me. It's the god damn 60'' ignores cover d6+1 strength 7 attack. I mean, what the hell dude? It's a troop transport. lol
I recall a theory someone on Dakka said that the 60'' range printed is a typo, and should actually just be 6''. That would make so much more sense.
It takes 27 SM krak missiles on average to glance a serp to death. 18 hit, 9 pen/glance, 6 jink saved. 3 HP. 27 missile shots is not easy to glance to death. And they are not easy to catch in assault.
morgoth wrote: Shrödinger's Wave Serpent. It moves 30" fires three weapons at full BS, has its serpent shield up and fires it as well, benefits from night fighting stealth and operates on an infinite surface.
I think you may be running out of straw for your strawmen, it CAN do all those things, not all at once but it can do the various things it needs to.
Obviously I'm not saying that it does all of those at once, it's the versatility which makes them so effective. Hell, it doesn't need to do all of those at once to be insane. Even if it does jink, the other 3-5 Wave Serpents in the army are going to make up for any lost DPS.
That's not how it works.
Say the opponent has one long fang squad, aims for a WS, WS jinks.
The WS may come out alive - may.
He also has a StormPlaneOfDoom, aims for another WS, WS jinks.
That WS may come out alive - may.
He also has a LasPredator or Land Raider, aims for a third WS, WS jinks.
That WS may come out alive - may.
That's a relatively soft list that's not even tailored to take down mech, and already 3WS are reduced to 25% of their DPS, one has probably exploded already.
If it's a competitive list, there are at most three other Wave Serpents, so you've effectively reduced their DPS to almost 4 WS total that round (even though the Jinked ones may be fired at the Flyer, picking your targets will greatly diminish those possibilities.
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ClassicCarraway wrote: Not really sure where the notion of "fragile" Eldar is coming from. Guardians are fragile....and that's about it. 4 of the 7 aspects have a 3+ save. Jetbikes are essentially fast marines. WS are easily the most durable dedicated transport south of a land raider. And then we get to wraith units, with lords and knights having a toughness value typically only found on gargantuan MCs, while the lowly guard just has the same T as a greater daemon.
Fragile is not how I would describe Eldar.
If you take assault in consideration, hitting on the AV10 rear makes WS very fragile.
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Bharring wrote: The problem is that the Serpent has the explosive fury while being nigh unkillable.
It's really not that hard to kill. If you try to take it down with the wrong weapons and tactics it may take a while though.
Yes if WS was like a Lemman Russ or a predator and was max 2 in list. Only it is not there is 4+ of them in the list and a ++2inv deathstar to deal with.
Then go play unbound and declare CAD the problem instead of whining about a unit that is not OP by itself.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: That's because the Falcon is not a battle tank. It's a transport.
You mean it's a bad transport and bad battle tank at the same time ?
I see now how it's totally worth its point cost, which is more than an annihilation barge, Night Scythe, Las Predator and so many other things.
A WS costs 210 points and a Falcon 140, we still don't use falcons. Care to guess why ?
morgoth wrote: Shrödinger's Wave Serpent. It moves 30" fires three weapons at full BS, has its serpent shield up and fires it as well, benefits from night fighting stealth and operates on an infinite surface.
I think you may be running out of straw for your strawmen, it CAN do all those things, not all at once but it can do the various things it needs to.
Obviously I'm not saying that it does all of those at once, it's the versatility which makes them so effective. Hell, it doesn't need to do all of those at once to be insane. Even if it does jink, the other 3-5 Wave Serpents in the army are going to make up for any lost DPS.
That's not how it works.
Say the opponent has one long fang squad, aims for a WS, WS jinks.
The WS may come out alive - may.
He also has a StormPlaneOfDoom, aims for another WS, WS jinks.
That WS may come out alive - may.
He also has a LasPredator or Land Raider, aims for a third WS, WS jinks.
That WS may come out alive - may.
That's a relatively soft list that's not even tailored to take down mech, and already 3WS are reduced to 25% of their DPS, one has probably exploded already.
If it's a competitive list, there are at most three other Wave Serpents, so you've effectively reduced their DPS to almost 4 WS total that round (even though the Jinked ones may be fired at the Flyer, picking your targets will greatly diminish those possibilities.
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ClassicCarraway wrote: Not really sure where the notion of "fragile" Eldar is coming from. Guardians are fragile....and that's about it. 4 of the 7 aspects have a 3+ save. Jetbikes are essentially fast marines. WS are easily the most durable dedicated transport south of a land raider. And then we get to wraith units, with lords and knights having a toughness value typically only found on gargantuan MCs, while the lowly guard just has the same T as a greater daemon.
Fragile is not how I would describe Eldar.
If you take assault in consideration, hitting on the AV10 rear makes WS very fragile.
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Bharring wrote: The problem is that the Serpent has the explosive fury while being nigh unkillable.
It's really not that hard to kill. If you try to take it down with the wrong weapons and tactics it may take a while though.
Yes if WS was like a Lemman Russ or a predator and was max 2 in list. Only it is not there is 4+ of them in the list and a ++2inv deathstar to deal with.
Then go play unbound and declare CAD the problem instead of whining about a unit that is not OP by itself.
Everyone, take a drink, he just told us to "play better." The WS are worth far more than they cost and you can get a billion of them. They are broken.
MWHistorian wrote: Everyone, take a drink, he just told us to "play better." The WS are worth far more than they cost and you can get a billion of them. They are broken.
Watch it, he's gonna call you out for saying that you can take a billion Wave Serpents. There aren't even a billion in production!
Because you have wave serpents. Lets do the comparisons like you asked. Comparing to other AT tanks.
Falcon with BL and holofields comes in at 150pts:
Durability: 12/12/10, 3+ jink
Manoeuvrability: Fast skimmer, can move 12" and shoot 2 weapons, can flat out 18", can move over things and thus ignore units and terrain in the way.
Damage output: 2 st8 ap2 and 1 st8 ap1 lance at bs4.
Transport cap: 6.
BA las pred 180pts.
Durability: 13/11/10, no jink. Winner - Falcon (moderate)
Manoeuvrability: Fast, can move 12" and shoot 2 weapons, can flat out 12", cannot move over things, takes DT tests. Winner - Falcon (moderate)
Damage output: 3 st9 ap2 shots, 1 of which is tl. Winner - Pred (moderate)
Transport cap: none. Winner - Falcon (infinite)
Also costs 30pts more and the winner is the falcon hands down.
SM las pred 155pts.
Durability: (as above). Winner - Falcon (moderate)
Manoeuvrability: not fast, can only move 6" and shoot to full effect. Winner - Falcon (huge)
Damage output: as above. Winner - Pred (slight as it cannot get side shots as easily since it is not fast)
Transport cap: none. Winner - Falcon (infinite)
Again - hands down winner is the Falcon and the pred still costs more.
Leman Russ Vanquisher with lascannon. 145pts.
Durability: 14/14/11, no jink. Winner - LR (big)
Manoeuvrability: not fast, 6" max move before it loses efficiency. Winner - Falcon (huge)
Damage output: 1 bs3 st9 ap2 and 1 bs3 st8 2d6 pen ap2 shots. Winner - Draw (Bs3 and one shot less makes a huge difference despite the 2d6 pen roll)
Transport cap: None. Winner - Falcon (infinite)
5pts less, I'd say a draw over all.
Grot Mega tank with 2 tl rokkit launchers and 3 rokkit launchers. 140pts.
Durability: 12/11/10. 5+ invuln. Winner - Falcon (slight)
Manoeuvrability: 2d6" move and still fire weapons, 3d6" if flat outing. May reroll dangerous terrain tests. Winner - Falcon (big)
Damage output: 3 st8 ap3 and 2 tl st8 ap3 at bs3 and 24" and may fail to shoot 1/6 of the time. Winner - Falcon (big, it may only get 2 average hits compared to the grots 2.5, but it has a much bigger range and also ap2)
Transport cap: none. Winner - Falcon (Infinite).
10pts less but again the falcon is the hands down winner.
You think the falcon is pants because you think the wave serpent is appropriately costed and you compare them. Also a night scythe is a flyer not a battle tank, whilst the anni barge is universally accepted as very undercosted.
As I have demonstrated, the Falcon is very appropriatly costed. Now I have done this, can you please explain why 1+d6 st7 tl bs4 ignores cover shots, extra capacity of 6 and a switch from HS to DT is worth only 15pts?
Jink now costing damage output and being no better than a ruin cover save is not that much of an advantage, especially as a shooting platform.
The transport capacity of the Falcon is useless, Skimmers don't ignore terrain, because there's only 5" between their starting position (front) and finishing position (back).
The way you compare the Leman Russ is ludicrous.
Any unit is fit for comparison, including Night Scythes.
And lastly, the Wave Serpent requires units to be taken for it, meaning it clocks in at 210 points, not 145.
And no, the units taken for it are never worth their points so you can't simply discount them.
I would personally never take a unit for it if it wasn't required, no matter the current power level of the Wave Serpent.
Your saying in an edition where objectives are scored each turn and the ability to deliver troops to these objectives, a transport capacity is useless?
You say jink can be replaced by cover saves, in an edition where movement is key and getting cover saves is not always possible, or even slightly possible in many tactical situations, especially with outflank, deepstrike, fast skimmers and warp jump generators flanking positions.
You then go on to say the ability to move over terrain and units (with a max possible move of 30" btw), means nothing.
And then you say my comparison with the vanquisher is ludicrous without giving reasons.
And then you have the audacity to say we need to play better, thus contradicting all the tactical 'nous' you've been spouting.
That's it - I'm out. You really do have blinkers on.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh nice edits - guess I'm not out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So you claim the units required to buy a serpent should cost nothing?
You asked to compare to other armies battle tanks - unless you have gone back and completely edited that too. A nights scythe is not a battle tank. And to compare the falcon with units that are universally accepted as undercosted does not help make your point.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And av12 with holofields is mathmatically FAR more durable than av13.
If your real problem is with this edition's slowed missions, say it.
There is no point in nerfing the Eldar just because the missions favor their hallmark abilities.
If you move a tank 30", it does nothing else that turn, that's expensive nothing else right there.
I think people should learn to play against the Wave Serpent instead of hoping to nullify it with lists that refuse to take it into account.
When there's something that breaks your combo, you start by writing a list that utterly annihilates it, and test it to make sure it's really *that* efficient.
When you're done with that exercise, you back merge all you can into a more TAC list, and see how it fares.
I haven't seen anyone do that, people just bring their own combos and whine when it doesn't deliver against a unit they chose to ignore.
I have no problem with this editions mission types - it actually creates a far more tactical-non gunline game. Being able to move a tank 30" into a flnaking position, or to completely wrong foot a slower opponent by redeploying your battle line, is HUGE, especially if you have a transport capacity.
Back to the wave serpent - being able to move 30" have a 3+ jink on an av12 hull which also gets to ignore pens is MASSIVE if you want to deliver a unit.
I've written plenty of lists that counter wave serpents, but they are either necrons, fingers crossed drop pod melta (because if you don't get them when you drop - that's it), IF lascannon devs in bunkers (need to pay a hefty tax in fortifications), and more recently Sicaran Battle tanks (with which I've had to resort to buying a £50 book, soon to invest in the tanks, had to proxy up till now, and have to convince people to play FW - I shouldn't have to do all that to take on a races basic DT). You have to MASSIVELY adjust your list to fight serps, to an extent unlike almost any other unit in the game. A unit shouldn't do that all on its own.
It is horrendously undercosted, and you seem to be the only one in the thread who thinks otherwise despite their being other eldar players here. Doesn't that tell you anything?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also the fact that your claiming serpents cost 210pts (and thus meaning dire avengers should be free to all eldar), clearly shows you do not take these units for tactical reasons but to spam your serpents. Also it shows you undervalue your troops whilst telling us to play better. Furthermore it demostrates that you have no idea about the 'troop tax' other armies have to pay.
Also the fact that your claiming serpents cost 210pts (and thus meaning dire avengers should be free to all eldar), clearly shows you do not take these units for tactical reasons but to spam your serpents. Also it shows you undervalue your troops whilst telling us to play better. Furthermore it demostrates that you have no idea about the 'troop tax' other armies have to pay.
On the contrary, I'm helping you realize the issue is not where you think it is.
Play unbound, don't play Maelstrom and suddenly you'll realize the Wave Serpent is really not the top unit of 40K.
It just happens to break the old flavor of TAC and enable actually good CAD lists that's all.
A drop pod can land anywhere on the table turn one, has a weapon and costs what 35 points ? and you're whining about my delivery mechanisms ? you can't be serious.
In conclusion, the Wave Serpent is really fine, it's just that it allows for CAD lists with a very low percentage of inefficient stuff, a trick rather hard to pull with most armies.
Poly Ranger wrote: Because you have wave serpents. Lets do the comparisons like you asked. Comparing to other AT tanks.
Falcon with BL and holofields comes in at 150pts:
Durability: 12/12/10, 3+ jink
Manoeuvrability: Fast skimmer, can move 12" and shoot 2 weapons, can flat out 18", can move over things and thus ignore units and terrain in the way.
Damage output: 2 st8 ap2 and 1 st8 ap1 lance at bs4.
Transport cap: 6.
BA las pred 180pts.
Durability: 13/11/10, no jink. Winner - Falcon (moderate)
Manoeuvrability: Fast, can move 12" and shoot 2 weapons, can flat out 12", cannot move over things, takes DT tests. Winner - Falcon (moderate)
Damage output: 3 st9 ap2 shots, 1 of which is tl. Winner - Pred (moderate)
Transport cap: none. Winner - Falcon (infinite)
Also costs 30pts more and the winner is the falcon hands down.
SM las pred 155pts.
Durability: (as above). Winner - Falcon (moderate)
Manoeuvrability: not fast, can only move 6" and shoot to full effect. Winner - Falcon (huge)
Damage output: as above. Winner - Pred (slight as it cannot get side shots as easily since it is not fast)
Transport cap: none. Winner - Falcon (infinite)
Again - hands down winner is the Falcon and the pred still costs more.
Leman Russ Vanquisher with lascannon. 145pts.
Durability: 14/14/11, no jink. Winner - LR (big)
Manoeuvrability: not fast, 6" max move before it loses efficiency. Winner - Falcon (huge)
Damage output: 1 bs3 st9 ap2 and 1 bs3 st8 2d6 pen ap2 shots. Winner - Draw (Bs3 and one shot less makes a huge difference despite the 2d6 pen roll)
Transport cap: None. Winner - Falcon (infinite)
5pts less, I'd say a draw over all.
Grot Mega tank with 2 tl rokkit launchers and 3 rokkit launchers. 140pts.
Durability: 12/11/10. 5+ invuln. Winner - Falcon (slight)
Manoeuvrability: 2d6" move and still fire weapons, 3d6" if flat outing. May reroll dangerous terrain tests. Winner - Falcon (big)
Damage output: 3 st8 ap3 and 2 tl st8 ap3 at bs3 and 24" and may fail to shoot 1/6 of the time. Winner - Falcon (big, it may only get 2 average hits compared to the grots 2.5, but it has a much bigger range and also ap2)
Transport cap: none. Winner - Falcon (Infinite).
10pts less but again the falcon is the hands down winner.
You think the falcon is pants because you think the wave serpent is appropriately costed and you compare them. Also a night scythe is a flyer not a battle tank, whilst the anni barge is universally accepted as very undercosted.
As I have demonstrated, the Falcon is very appropriatly costed. Now I have done this, can you please explain why 1+d6 st7 tl bs4 ignores cover shots, extra capacity of 6 and a switch from HS to DT is worth only 15pts?
Right.
In a world without a Serpent, the Falcon becomes quite useful in an Eldar army.
As a tranport say for Firedragons and as a gunboat.
Isn't a LasPred 140?
And isn't a BL/Holo Falcon 160? (Or am I still overpaying for Falcons?)
In any event, I don't see a LasPred costing *more* than a Falcon.
LasPred clearly loses on mobility.
LasPred clearly wins on dakka (s9 vs s8 is huge).
For survivability:
the jump to AV13 is substantial. Immune to all s6 (SLs, SCs, StarCannons, etc), can't be penned by s7 (PGs, Serpent Shield, etc), and more resiliant vs anything stronger. Jink is big, but who doesn't find some sort of cover for their Pred?
With Jink + Holo, you're looking at 1/6 - 1/3 improved survivability for 25% reduced firepower. Better 'n blowing up, sure. But certainly worse than av12 vs av13? Which is a 1/6 improvement vs s10, 1/3 for s9, worse for anything weaker.
My conclusion is that av13 vs av12 is better than jink + bolo.
Falcon does have Transport Capacity. Drawbacks include being chargeable if it gets too close - meaning it won't drop off melee units well. And a capacity of 6. That means only half their infantry (Banshees, DAs, etc) can use it. And even then, too few to really put down the hurt the way a Raven or Rhino or Serpent can. Useful, but not as critical as most assume.
My read is that Falcons are slightly less effective as LasPreds. Their mobility is nearly worth the points difference. The transport let's me play MechDar to a limited extend with fewer Serpents, and small teams of aspect warriors are fun. That said, I lose them faster than I lose LasPreds, and they have less dakka. And I don't find LasPreds a great choice (AutoLas or DakkaPreds usually - Devs if I want Lascannon spam).
So the Falcon seems on the low side of just fine, to me.
Falcon costs 150pts without shuriken cannon upgrade. Las pred may be 140, I don't have my dex on me atm and forgot the price of the tl las upgrade. Estimated it to be 30pts - so should have said 145pts.
Av13 isn't that much better if at all compared to av12 with 3+ against AT weapons, which is what both are usually shot with. On top of this, side armour of 12 on the serp compared to 11 on the pred at least balances it out, if you don't already think it is the equivalent.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If sitting back and shooting 3 st9 compared to 3 st8 with 1 lance is big. But when you also consider that the falcon has the maneuverability to get side shots easily, whereas the pred doesn't, it begins to make its damage output back.
Poly Ranger wrote: It takes 27 SM krak missiles on average to glance a serp to death. 18 hit, 9 pen/glance, 6 jink saved. 3 HP. 27 missile shots is not easy to glance to death.
Is the Wave Serpent the only AV12 vehicle in the game that can get a 4+ cover save?
3+. No - but it is guaranteed it. It is the only one I am aware of that converts 5/6 of pens to glances.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Other vehicles for example have to stay behind cover of they want to keep that (lower) save, which reduces tactical flexibility. The maneuverability and range also benefits its durability.
Poly Ranger wrote: It takes 27 SM krak missiles on average to glance a serp to death. 18 hit, 9 pen/glance, 6 jink saved. 3 HP. 27 missile shots is not easy to glance to death.
Is the Wave Serpent the only AV12 vehicle in the game that can get a 4+ cover save?
It isn't anymore guaranteed than the save you can get with any other vehicle. Unless you're a sociopath who plays with little to no cover on the board, any vehicle can be plopped down in cover and sit there for the entire game.
People don't do that, generally because if a vehicle spends the entire match in cover its firepower usually suffers in some manner as a result.
Nobody jinks their serpents the entire game either, because why bother taking a Wave Serpent at that point. It's firing snap shots the entire game.
Poly Ranger wrote: It takes 27 SM krak missiles on average to glance a serp to death. 18 hit, 9 pen/glance, 6 jink saved. 3 HP. 27 missile shots is not easy to glance to death.
Is the Wave Serpent the only AV12 vehicle in the game that can get a 4+ cover save?
All skimmers can jink. Thus there are a lot more.
Indeed. I had a hell of a time trying to kill an opponent's Annihilation Barges a couple weeks ago. If trying to glance jinking AV12 to death is hard, trying to glance out jinking AV13 is a nightmare.
I see a lot of references of Eldar being a T3 4+ save.
The only time I see anything like that is a local Ulthwe player who buys Guardians to get Wave Serpents and puts them in the backfield, or outflanks if available.
Eldar are really either T4 with a 3+ or 2+, often re-rollable, or T6 3+, or T8 3+ 5++
An Aspect Warrior or Footdar list isn't overpowered per se; really strong against Marines by virtue of being able to, army wide, counter armour (and even if you only do a bladestorm wound 1/6 times against a terminator, you're paying back just shy of half your squad's cost per shot, so it's still very favourable), but has actual weaknesses.
Serpents, biker deathstars with re-rollable good saves up the wazoo, Wraithguard, Wraithknights and whatnot are the norm for Eldar, without the Serpents they can just fall back on stupid-awesome psychic powers able to make just about any squad a mini-death star, and with the psychic phase fundamentally broken, good luck countering any of that.
BlaxicanX wrote: It isn't anymore guaranteed than the save you can get with any other vehicle. Unless you're a sociopath who plays with little to no cover on the board, any vehicle can be plopped down in cover and sit there for the entire game.
People don't do that, generally because if a vehicle spends the entire match in cover its firepower usually suffers in some manner as a result.
Nobody jinks their serpents the entire game either, because why bother taking a Wave Serpent at that point. It's firing snap shots the entire game.
Even better, you get your cover save without having to worry about snap firing next turn.
Sure, and Tyranids infantry isn't fragile either. The Horamagaunts and Termagaunts I normally see have 3+ sometimes 2+ saves from Venomthropes and other shenanigans.
Tyranid are fragile. So are Eldar. That they can use special abilities and tricks to buff themselves up doesn't make that not the case.
BlaxicanX wrote: It isn't anymore guaranteed than the save you can get with any other vehicle. Unless you're a sociopath who plays with little to no cover on the board, any vehicle can be plopped down in cover and sit there for the entire game.
People don't do that, generally because if a vehicle spends the entire match in cover its firepower usually suffers in some manner as a result.
Nobody jinks their serpents the entire game either, because why bother taking a Wave Serpent at that point. It's firing snap shots the entire game.
Even better, you get your cover save without having to worry about snap firing next turn.
True but unlike the other skimmers the serp will have a better jink, and it also avoids immobilised, weapon destroyed, shaken/stunned, explodes results. I agree that all av12+ skimmers are more difficult to kill with jink, that actually increases the point im making about serps NOT being easy to glance out.
Poly Ranger wrote: 3+. No - but it is guaranteed it. It is the only one I am aware of that converts 5/6 of pens to glances.
.
At which point its damage output is just laughable.
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Poly Ranger wrote: True but unlike the other skimmers the serp will have a better jink, and it also avoids immobilised, weapon destroyed, shaken/stunned, explodes results. I agree that all av12+ skimmers are more difficult to kill with jink, that actually increases the point im making about serps NOT being easy to glance out.
Again, the Wave Serpent is not worth its cost if it doesn't fire the shield.
Honestly, if you re really into eldars but dont want to be competitive, then why not look at this the oposite way and make an army that will have the worst units possible and make it very hard to win.
Im sure you will make a lot of happy gamers letting them win against an eldar army
Sir Arun wrote: I play Eldar but I only own 1 Wave Serpent and 0 Wraithlords. I also only have 3 jetbikes.
Without these, can I play an Eldar army without being called TFG? What else is there in the codex that makes people cry foul?
The codex is fine. ONE single weapon system ruined things and it would take a Privateer Press-like elegant move and ONE errata to rebalance it. Shorten the range of the Shield to 18". That's it. No one would even be talking bout this if they did.
They aren't really. It's all the other books that are unerpowered. Eldar have the same core issue as High Elves in fantasy. They're an army built to be elite with one core weakness: T3. That's what is supposed to balance both Eldar and High Elves. Yeah, sure they're super mobile, super disciplined, super skilled in the psychic (magic) phase, shooting and assualt (combat). BUT they are T3 so if you look at them funny, they fall down dead.
BUT
They then have a bunch of things that negate T3 and make them a super tough army. So they end up being good at movement, magic, shooting, combat AND they have no real weakness. Jetbikes can jink, wave serpents can jink or use their shields, the psykers can make gak go invisible... While in fantasy, there's White Lions with their 3+ against shooting, Phoenix Guard with a godly 4++ base, and every time they get a spell off (which is often) they can start layering ward saves on everything. And then they have the frost phoenix.
So the real problem is that the Eldar book and the High Elf book are just too well written to fit in in Warhammer. They are elite armies with loads of strengths and lots of ways to deal with their one big glaring weakness. Now, it takes some degree of skill and understanding of your book to pull that off, and make T3 not matter, but it's possible. But if you look at the other armies, no one else gets that. Orks don't have a way around the awful Mob Rule. Orks don't have a way to just get to combat. Everything we CAN do to get us across the table has the caveat that 'oh but then you can't assualt that turn' or it's a truck and the problem is, yeah, but that can be popped by S4 shooting. Now, if Orks could assualt from deep strike, or assault from outflank, or assault after Da Jump, or could assault on turn one after using a scout redeployment, that would put them on the same power level as Eldar. Because they could be tough, hard hitting, numerous AND they could get to assault when the game doesn't really want them to. Sort of like how Eldar can be a T3 army that just will not die. But no. ONLY Eldar get that.
If all the books had the kind of ironclad rules that Eldar and High Elves have, there'd be no problem. If there was a way for Tyranids to get around synapse, or if there was a way for Tau to be effective in close combat, or whatever, then it would be no problem. Because it would be even. Everyone would have strengths and weaknesses and then some way to counteract that weakness and go into God mode. But ONLY Eldar/High Elves have that ability. And that unbalances the game.
morgoth wrote: Shrödinger's Wave Serpent. It moves 30" fires three weapons at full BS, has its serpent shield up and fires it as well, benefits from night fighting stealth and operates on an infinite surface.
I think you may be running out of straw for your strawmen, it CAN do all those things, not all at once but it can do the various things it needs to.
The point is that people whine about Wave Serpents AS IF it CAN do all of those things at once. They whine the Serpent shield is shooting all the way across the table and is twin linked... but the scatter laser isn't free and only shoots 36. They whine about the shuriken cannon which isn't free and only shoots 24". They whine that the Bright lance discounts AV14 and can't be taken with the scatter laser. They assume the serpent never moves and fires all weapons at full ballistic skill, while flying 30" a turn. They pretend glances don't matter and that AV10 doesn't exist. The compare it at base cost and assume it has holofields, extra guns and move through cover.
The serpent can't move 30". It can move 12 in the movement phase and the rear will then be 5" from where the front was. You can block those movement options with a combat squad - two at most, plus that sweet sweet 35 point drop pod. If it moves any farther it's not shooting very well. Besides, where is it going to move? The other end of it's own deployment zone? Anywhere else and you should have something that can assault it. and even Tac squad krak grenades will rip that AV10 apart, potentially wrecking it with a single hit and certainly glancing it down, to say nothing of special weapons. Worried about alpha strikes? Take AV14 land raiders or a building and ignore every weapon on the "OP" scatter serpent until your deep strike/outflankers come in and assault the next turn.
Drop a pod or two with a pair of 5 man tactical combat squads and you will march block that serpent and still be in assault range the next turn. You'll also be able to fire 40 bolter rounds and throw 4 frag/krak grenades at a T3 4+or 5+ list. No troops on the field? Run around the serpent and prevent both movement and disembarkation.
The Falcon sucks. No one takes them because we'd take the fire prism if we wanted a tank in the heavy slot. Either way AV 12, jink or no, is immensely worse than the AV13 a dakka or annilator predator has. Both can go in corners and sit in cover so jink is generally a red herring in a real game not played on planet billiard table. A jinking gunboat is a waste of points unless its T7 of a random length game.
Jetbike "spam". If you can't kill 1 guy in a T4/3+ 3 man biker squad and force a panic off the board almost half the time, your list sucks or you are facing the "ultra competitive" Avatar. If there are 5+ guys, they're not spam and you'd only need to kill 2 to trigger a leadership and 3d6 off the board test. Killing a jetbike is exactly as hard as killing a tactical marine. If you can't do that, you're list sucks.
If you have no fast assault (beast/jet/jump) or rapid deployment (deep strike, drop pod/outflank/infiltrate/scout), you have a gunline and no right to complain if your gunline loses T1 and your alpha strike FTW fails.
Aside from Bikes, Fire Dragons and Scorpions, Eldar get 4+ armour on anyone other than the exarch, and 5+ only on Guardians, all of which are T3 (T4 for bikers bike). A S6 TFC blast will insta kill any of them, as will any S7 plasmas, kraks and lascannons.
I'm not going to get into the seerstar thing because the psychic phase and Invisibility in particular is broken for any army. Non-Eldar specific brokeness of psykers aside, if you want to spend 50+ points for a warlock on a bike that has a t4/3+ and dies to 6 bolter hits, feel free. My Thunderfires, Vindis and Iron clad heavy flamers/DWML's all love them if there is nothing even juicier to kill first.
Schroedinger's Wave Serpent in a vacuum is an amazing unit. The actual wave serpent that must be fielded and paid for, choosing what to do, and be constrained in movement by the board, other units and fear of assault is merely good. If we had a 35 point rhino option that let us fire a pair of special weapons out the top, you'd see storm guardians and fire dragons taking them.
Now if you want to have a PRODUCTIVE discussion, how about comparing the Wave Serpent to a rhino and saying exactly why it is OP when it costs ~130 points (with gear, but without troops) more than a rhino? Or for a less popular but closer comparison, the 12/12/10 80 point Devil fish? Please show your work and point cost estimates for each change in movement/AV/etc so we have specific targets we can discuss instead of the Schroedinger's haze of if A then B hyper tailoring people seem to do on these boards. As one poster in another thread pointed out, the Eldar are paying 59 points for Fast and the Shield: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/614381.page#7212630
To answer the OP "Why the Eldar hate?" Because people like taking paper to beat rock, and paper sucks to scissors. In short, if your paper list is optimized to beat rock all day long, don't complain that scissors is OP.
I'm not going to get into the seerstar thing because the psychic phase and Invisibility in particular is broken for any army. Non-Eldar specific brokeness of psykers aside, if you want to spend 50+ points for a warlock on a bike that has a t4/3+ and dies to 6 bolter hits, feel free. My Thunderfires, Vindis and Iron clad heavy flamers/DWML's all love them if there is nothing even juicier to kill first.
See, you're being a little disengenous though because in order to get those 6 bolter hits, you need to shoot at the guy 36 times because invisible. So 2 tactial squads in rapid fire range. To kill one warlock. And my army doesn't have access to invisibility unless I ally in something like a seerstar.
RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote: Now if you want to have a PRODUCTIVE discussion, how about comparing the Wave Serpent to a rhino and saying exactly why it is OP when it costs ~130 points (with gear, but without troops) more than a rhino? Or for a less popular but closer comparison, the 12/12/10 80 point Devil fish? Please show your work and point cost estimates for each change in movement/AV/etc so we have specific targets we can discuss instead of the Schroedinger's haze of if A then B hyper tailoring people seem to do on these boards. As one poster in another thread pointed out, the Eldar are paying 59 points for Fast and the Shield: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/614381.page#7212630
To answer the OP "Why the Eldar hate?" Because people like taking paper to beat rock, and paper sucks to scissors. In short, if your paper list is optimized to beat rock all day long, don't complain that scissors is OP.
You miss the point about "schrodinger's Wave Serpent": no one is saying that it does everything at once. It's the fact that it can do any of those things if the situation calls for it, which gives it insane versatility, combined with the fact that they can be spammed. Need to make a last turn objective grab? 30" move. Need to glance a vehicle to death? Fire the shield and any weapons that are in range. Need to negate 2/3 incoming shots? Jink, and don't worry about the DPS drop from that, just spend the next turn moving the squad inside forward and disembark them in the enemy's face (and it's not like there aren't 3 or more Wave Serpents where that one came from).
Wave Serpents don't have to do everything every turn, because they can use their extreme versatility whenever it's necessary.
The usual serp build is 145pts. For 110pts you get on top of the rhino: fast, skimmer, jink, 6 st6 shots, twinlinked, serp shield, +2 transport cap and increased front and side armour. What you lose is 2 fire points and a storm bolter. That in anybodys books is worth more than 110pts.
Nobody is claiming that it can do all these things at once. The option of being able to do either brings incredible tactical flexibility. Either using it as a transport with a 30" skimmer move that has a 3+ cover and ignores almost all pens, or a gunboat that sits out of range of the vast majority of weapons and puts out an insane amount of shots whilst behind cover. And in one turn it can go from one to the other.
The ability to move so far on a transport is incredible whilst maintaining such durability. And when was the last time you saw your entire opponents deployment zone and every objective covered by krak wielding marines?
It is outside of a vacume that the serp becomes incredible - as yes you may make one or two jink, but in a spam that leaves plenty more to fire. And as every experienced 40k player knows - spreading your shots is tactical suicide.
A pod and squad cannot block a serp as it can just fly away (and over) from them and they will never get in range - and if they drop solo, or with just 1 or two other supporting pods, they will be wiped out in a turn by all the eldar firepower.
You also forgot the unit most dangerous with a 3+ - warp spiders.
Over simplifying things is a bad argument. "paying points" is only an argument if the points are commensurate with the efect. A Serpent shield should be like a 40 point upgrade. Look at what the Void Raven bomber charged for ITS firepower!
For just delivering the unit, transporting 12 for 145 points to almost certainly get there, versus transporting 10 for 35 points to guarentee arrival, and most likely sooner?
The Serpent is OP, but if you completely removed the shield's shooting, it'd be overcosted (albeit not unusably so). Compare it to the 80pt Devilfish that nobody cares for.
Bharring wrote: For just delivering the unit, transporting 12 for 145 points to almost certainly get there, versus transporting 10 for 35 points to guarentee arrival, and most likely sooner?
The Serpent is OP, but if you completely removed the shield's shooting, it'd be overcosted (albeit not unusably so). Compare it to the 80pt Devilfish that nobody cares for.
People pay 250pts for Land Raiders to guarantee that their contents make it through alive, and a Land Raider doesn't have nearly as much firepower as a Wave Serpent (and I think, mathematically, is less survivable against most things too). Of course, Land Raiders pay the tax of having the Assault Vehicle rule, but most things a Wave Serpent delivers are shooty anyway.
Rhinos are probably somewhat undercosted, but a Rhino itself is unthreatening and dies extremely easily, especially to something like a Wave Serpent.
I was talking about Drop Pods, actually. Those'll get your stuff to the target.
(A Land Raider is only less resiliant versus special effects. Even Lascannons are more deadly to the Serpent than a Land Raider, and Lascannons are the wrong tool for hunting Serpents)
Drop pods are great I love them but as someone who plays them sometimes I would really like to get where I want much later in the game. Drop pods are usually dropping off pretty slow units turn 1 and 2 that can then be shot at the rest of the game to get them off objectives where a WS or other transport can keep their unit fairly safe until late game when your opponent hopefully has less fire power to shoot them off whatever you want them to grab.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Drop pods getting obsec for troops though is really nice if you land in the right spot though to force your opponent to deal with the pod.
Compared the DP to a regular transport isn't the same. There is value in the protection a transport provides. In addition, mobility it brings to slower infantry is crucial. And you can only bring half of your pods on at once.
Wave Serpents are also not 145 base. The main weapon upgrades are dirt cheap as well. Without firing the shield, the serpent gets insane durability bonuses. The jink save plus the ignore penetrations means for all the turns it is active it can complete its primary roll of ferrying troops. This is especially annoying when they can be spammed like they are. Taking scatter lasers with laser lock means that even if it jinks you can still get some hits in. The list goes on and on for the things it can do even without firing its shield once. It is constantly brought up by everyone as either undercosted and over powered. It is pretty much commonly accepted as well by now.
Personally, I think the shield should be reduced to 3+ or 4+ ignore pen. And once you fire the shield as a weapon it is gone for good. That makes it a risk reward thing. It keeps it as a powerful option if needed. And it gives some incentive to take weapons other than the standard loadout.
Besides the Wave Serpent, I personally have an issue with the Guardian Jetbike. Why is it so strong for the price it pays? It's a troop unit, has Eldar Jetbike rules, and gives 3+ armor for no apparent reason. Compare to other bike units, and most follow a pattern-
Space Marine biker- Grants Bike, +1T, twinlinked bolter for +7 points over a Tactical marine. Fast Attack unless you take a unit of 5 and a CM/Captain on a bike.
Ork Biker- Grants Bike, +1T, TL Dakkagun, and 4+ 'Eavy armor for +12 points over an ork boy (who can buy 'eavy armor for 4 points, so call it +8 for the bike). FA only.
DE Reaver Jetbike- Grants Eldar Jetbike, +1T, Single linked Splinter rifle, 5+ Armor, Bladevanes, for +6 points over a Wych, or +8 points over a warrior. FA only.
Guardian Jetbike- Grants Eldar Jetbike, +1T, TL Shuricat, 3+ armor, for 8 points over a guardian. Troops by default.
Where is the 3+ armor coming from? They clearly aren't paying the points for it. Orks get a bump ffrom 6+ to 4+, and that increase is built into the cost of the bikers. Marines start with 3+ and stay 3+. Dark Eldar start with 6+, and go up to 5+, but they are hybrid Warriors/Wyches when it comes to armor and wargear. But Windrider Jetbikes start with 5+ mesh armor, and somehow the bike gives them 3+ for free?
- A drop pod becomes immobilised once it lands whilst a wave serpent can keep moving after ot jas delivered its cargo (big on an OS unit which can move 30").
- A wave serpent can redeploy its cargo, a drop pod cannot.
- A WS can keep its cargo safe inside as long as you require whilst a DP forces its unit to deploy.
- A drop pod is forced to deploy its unit turn one or on a randomly selected turn, WS gives you tactical choice of when.
- The turn after delivery a WS puts out 4 st6 shots, 2 tl st6 shots and d6+1tl ignores cover st7 shots to support its unit, while a DP puts out 2 st4 shots.
- A WS gives pinpoint accuracy in deployment, a drop pod scatters.
-Once deployed a DP can be destroyed easier.
- Drop pods must be reserved and only half come down turn 1.
The only similarity:
- Both are pretty much guarenteed to get their unit to their objective.
Ok now I've done that can people stop comparing WS with DPs to explain how WS are 'appropriatly costed'.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also like to point out that those few who say the wave serpent is appropriately costed are saying we need to adapt better to play them and think more tactically... yet these are the people who are soley focusing on the serp shields shooting as if that is the only problem it brings and refuse to acknowledge that a 30" move, 3+, ignore pen transport or a 30" move OS unit is not a massive tactical advantage. Hypocritical somewhat.
I mean 30" move with OS and the survivability of av12 3+ ignores pens means you can dominate all 6 objectives if you end up with that maelstrom mission, very easily. Yes you may lose a serp or two to combat if you do so - but then they just earned you the most VPs possible out of any of the maelstrom missions. Even if you don't get that mission, you can claim other objectives not on your current position easier than any other OS unit in the game - what other unit in the entire game has a 30" move and the survivability of the serp?
For the last time - nobody who criticizes the power of the WS is saying that it is just d6+1 st7 shots they are bothered about, it is the tactical versatility the serpent shield brings.
Aside from Bikes, Fire Dragons and Scorpions, Eldar get 4+ armour on anyone other than the exarch, and 5+ only on Guardians, all of which are T3 (T4 for bikers bike). A S6 TFC blast will insta kill any of them, as will any S7 plasmas, kraks and lascannons.
Actually we have 3+ on Warp Spiders and Wraithblades/guards too.
But the only 2+ in all the codex is the vastly underpowered phoenix lords.
I'm not going to get into the seerstar thing because the psychic phase and Invisibility in particular is broken for any army. Non-Eldar specific brokeness of psykers aside, if you want to spend 50+ points for a warlock on a bike that has a t4/3+ and dies to 6 bolter hits, feel free. My Thunderfires, Vindis and Iron clad heavy flamers/DWML's all love them if there is nothing even juicier to kill first.
No need to worry about that, the Seerstar is not competitive anymore and the Beast Star is now impossible, thanks to v7 and new DE codex.
See, you're being a little disengenous though because in order to get those 6 bolter hits, you need to shoot at the guy 36 times because invisible. So 2 tactial squads in rapid fire range. To kill one warlock. And my army doesn't have access to invisibility unless I ally in something like a seerstar.
Your army doesn't even care because it's the only army in the game that only loses 50% damage output when snap firing, and has the volume to compensate its BS2 to begin with.
Not only that, but it's extremely easy to beat Eldar WS spam with orks, I don't know what you're even doing complaining here.
If anything's OP, it's probably the fact that Orks can snap shot on a 6 where they should have 6, then 4+ if snap firing had been fair to everyone.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Poly Ranger wrote: The usual serp build is 145pts. For 110pts you get on top of the rhino: fast, skimmer, jink, 6 st6 shots, twinlinked, serp shield, +2 transport cap and increased front and side armour. What you lose is 2 fire points and a storm bolter. That in anybodys books is worth more than 110pts.
Nobody is claiming that it can do all these things at once. The option of being able to do either brings incredible tactical flexibility. Either using it as a transport with a 30" skimmer move that has a 3+ cover and ignores almost all pens, or a gunboat that sits out of range of the vast majority of weapons and puts out an insane amount of shots whilst behind cover. And in one turn it can go from one to the other.
The ability to move so far on a transport is incredible whilst maintaining such durability. And when was the last time you saw your entire opponents deployment zone and every objective covered by krak wielding marines?
It is outside of a vacume that the serp becomes incredible - as yes you may make one or two jink, but in a spam that leaves plenty more to fire. And as every experienced 40k player knows - spreading your shots is tactical suicide.
A pod and squad cannot block a serp as it can just fly away (and over) from them and they will never get in range - and if they drop solo, or with just 1 or two other supporting pods, they will be wiped out in a turn by all the eldar firepower.
You also forgot the unit most dangerous with a 3+ - warp spiders.
1. 210 points to get a Wave Serpent, and no, what's inside is nowhere as good as krak wielding tactical marines with S4T4 3+
2. Wave Serpents do not have the mobility you think they do, not on a real table, not against a capable opponent. If you play correctly they have nowhere to go on T3, they'll have to move 30" and sacrifice half the WS or all the DAs just to survive another turn.
3. Not spreading your shots against Wave Serpents is tactical suicide.
4. There are only so many 7"x4" spots on a 72"x48" table.
Again, the Wave Serpent is not worth its cost if it doesn't fire the shield.
A transport that holds 12 that is practically guaranteed to deliver its payload by turn 2 is damn near priceless, without ever taking a shot.
If it had anything deadly that could assault /shoot out of it ?
If it was really guaranteed ?
Then it would almost be as good as a Drop Pod, for four times the price in an army that doesn't really have anything worth transporting for 145 points.
Bharring wrote: For just delivering the unit, transporting 12 for 145 points to almost certainly get there, versus transporting 10 for 35 points to guarentee arrival, and most likely sooner?
The Serpent is OP, but if you completely removed the shield's shooting, it'd be overcosted (albeit not unusably so). Compare it to the 80pt Devilfish that nobody cares for.
People pay 250pts for Land Raiders to guarantee that their contents make it through alive, and a Land Raider doesn't have nearly as much firepower as a Wave Serpent (and I think, mathematically, is less survivable against most things too). Of course, Land Raiders pay the tax of having the Assault Vehicle rule, but most things a Wave Serpent delivers are shooty anyway.
AV14-14-14, more AT firepower, less saturation, assault vehicle.
In terms of synergy, the LR can transport really dangerous stuff.
The Wave Serpent not so much.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also like to point out that those few who say the wave serpent is appropriately costed are saying we need to adapt better to play them and think more tactically... yet these are the people who are soley focusing on the serp shields shooting as if that is the only problem it brings and refuse to acknowledge that a 30" move, 3+, ignore pen transport or a 30" move OS unit is not a massive tactical advantage. Hypocritical somewhat.
I mean 30" move with OS and the survivability of av12 3+ ignores pens means you can dominate all 6 objectives if you end up with that maelstrom mission, very easily. Yes you may lose a serp or two to combat if you do so - but then they just earned you the most VPs possible out of any of the maelstrom missions. Even if you don't get that mission, you can claim other objectives not on your current position easier than any other OS unit in the game - what other unit in the entire game has a 30" move and the survivability of the serp?
For the last time - nobody who criticizes the power of the WS is saying that it is just d6+1 st7 shots they are bothered about, it is the tactical versatility the serpent shield brings.
If you play only tactical marines on foot, on turn one, you will be 10.5 inches away from the starting position, turn two 21 inches.
That means 32 inches from your side of the board and 15 inches from their side of the board.
Considering a 4" wide Wave Serpent trying to avoid assault and a 2d6" charge distance, the Wave Serpents cannot get away from a charge on T3.
They could use their first 12" movement to get one inch from your tactical marines, and then jump over them in flat out 18", which would at most bring them 12" (18 -1(1" from the enemy before movement) -4(WS width) -1(base)) away, within charge range.
If you played smart, it would be about 14" and almost guaranteed charge on the next turn.
There is no 30" movement unless you let it happen, and there is no running away from the enemy unless you let it happen.
If the opponent has like 6 WS (one too much if you ask me) at 1850 points, he'll be giving you (from outside of charge range) 7.5 S6/7 shots a turn, 6.25 MEQ wounds, or exactly 2.08 dead marines per Wave Serpent.
If you can get away with losing 6x2x2 = 24 Tactical Space Marines over the course of two turns, you will have won the game.
Wave Serpents OP right.
If you can't get away with losing 24 Tactical space marines in order to win your game, your army list probably sucks anyway.
And of course, this is a lot easier to pull with Orks or Nids, which can do the same S4 CC spam for a lot cheaper.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nedTCM wrote: Compared the DP to a regular transport isn't the same. There is value in the protection a transport provides. In addition, mobility it brings to slower infantry is crucial. And you can only bring half of your pods on at once.
It's not the same, it's not an iWIN button that costs only 35 points to Deep Strike any unit anywhere without risks on Turn one.
There is nothing as fethed up in 40K as the Drop Pod, and there you are, pretending it's worse than a Wave Serpent as a Transport ?
Get over your emperor's favorite privilege blindness willya.
Cept this! Where Eldar has been good in 2nd (Exarchs!) 3rd (Altoic!) 4th (Holofalcons!) and now 6th and 7th (Guess!)
I played from 4th and I can tell you Eldar have only been top-tier for 14 months.
4th and 5th ed we were fielding the most brutally optimized lists to barely stand a chance against the emperor's finest.
Fielding anything else resulted in a one-way fight with dead Eldar all around.
Most of 6th must have been a nightmare too.
So really, Eldar have mostly had 14 months of spotlight, 9 of which with a Seerstar, 3 more with the Iyanden beaststar, and it may actually be over now since both are gone.
But hey, if you can't stand us pointy eared having any of the spotlight, just say so.
Couldn't read past this, this is how you can tell someone is desperately trying to deflect from the army they play right here, just so
I just hope you're aware of the fact that the OP spams Wave Serpents? If a user spams Wave Serpents and then claims that they aren't OP despite everyone else saying they are OP...well...do the math
I just hope you're aware of the fact that the OP spams Wave Serpents? If a user spams Wave Serpents and then claims that they aren't OP despite everyone else saying they are OP...well...do the math
Here's the OP for you
Sir Arun wrote: I play Eldar but I only own 1 Wave Serpent and 0 Wraithlords. I also only have 3 jetbikes.
Without these, can I play an Eldar army without being called TFG? What else is there in the codex that makes people cry foul?
Cept this! Where Eldar has been good in 2nd (Exarchs!) 3rd (Altoic!) 4th (Holofalcons!) and now 6th and 7th (Guess!)
I played from 4th and I can tell you Eldar have only been top-tier for 14 months.
4th and 5th ed we were fielding the most brutally optimized lists to barely stand a chance against the emperor's finest.
Fielding anything else resulted in a one-way fight with dead Eldar all around.
Most of 6th must have been a nightmare too.
So really, Eldar have mostly had 14 months of spotlight, 9 of which with a Seerstar, 3 more with the Iyanden beaststar, and it may actually be over now since both are gone.
But hey, if you can't stand us pointy eared having any of the spotlight, just say so.
So what your now admitting is that you really do just want Eldar to be on top? Well thanks for being so honest, I feel the spotlight should be available to everyone and that everyone should be on a closer playing field then what you desire.
Couldn't read past this, this is how you can tell someone is desperately trying to deflect from the army they play right here, just so
I just hope you're aware of the fact that the OP spams Wave Serpents? If a user spams Wave Serpents and then claims that they aren't OP despite everyone else saying they are OP...well...do the math
Cept this! Where Eldar has been good in 2nd (Exarchs!) 3rd (Altoic!) 4th (Holofalcons!) and now 6th and 7th (Guess!)
I played from 4th and I can tell you Eldar have only been top-tier for 14 months.
4th and 5th ed we were fielding the most brutally optimized lists to barely stand a chance against the emperor's finest.
Fielding anything else resulted in a one-way fight with dead Eldar all around.
Most of 6th must have been a nightmare too.
So really, Eldar have mostly had 14 months of spotlight, 9 of which with a Seerstar, 3 more with the Iyanden beaststar, and it may actually be over now since both are gone.
But hey, if you can't stand us pointy eared having any of the spotlight, just say so.
This doesn't really acknowlegde the fact that Eldars have been stupidly overpowered 5/6 editions.
So what your now admitting is that you really do just want Eldar to be on top? Well thanks for being so honest, I feel the spotlight should be available to everyone and that everyone should be on a closer playing field then what you desire.
I'm saying Eldar had 14 months of spotlight in the seven years that I've seen 40K and that sounds pretty fair to me.
So far, most of the 40K I've known had Eldar as underdogs, and I had no problem with that either.
Apparently, it's just you and some other guys who can't stand their army being the underdog, and Eldar being top dog for a short while.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Zewrath wrote: This doesn't really acknowlegde the fact that Eldars have been stupidly overpowered 5/6 editions.
So what your now admitting is that you really do just want Eldar to be on top? Well thanks for being so honest, I feel the spotlight should be available to everyone and that everyone should be on a closer playing field then what you desire.
I'm saying Eldar had 14 months of spotlight in the seven years that I've seen 40K and that sounds pretty fair to me.
So far, most of the 40K I've known had Eldar as underdogs, and I had no problem with that either.
Apparently, it's just you and some other guys who can't stand their army being the underdog, and Eldar being top dog for a short while.
So essentially, you've gone from "They aren't OP" to "Yall just jealous yalls army aint up here!" So yeah, Your done.
I would say that every time eldar have had a new army book made, it has been very powerful. It's inevitable, they have everything you can wish for available and even if few of the units get worse there are plenty others to become better.
I have played with eldar as my main army for 15 years, and after 10 games with the current codex I put them to storage, as I felt filthy playing with them.
Apparently, it's just you and some other guys who can't stand their army being the underdog, and Eldar being top dog for a short while.
tbh there is not real point talking to this guy - he loves his cheese units, but wants desperately to believe its his skill that wins games so of course they can't be OP otherwise somehow his amazing wins would be down to something other than god like tactical genius rather than just picking the most powerful units and spamming them.
It hilarious that he keeps saying its jealousy when Eldar Players say Wave Serpents are OP.
He again also claims the units inside the transport should be free despite me refuting this repeatedly. Keeps saying an opponent can stop a serpent moving flat out (unless you swamp the entire table with an army of gaunts, or grots I don't see how), and also keeps saying others don't play well enough but won't accept blind obvious tactical truths. Also has remarkably similar language to another poster in the thread.
Apparently, it's just you and some other guys who can't stand their army being the underdog, and Eldar being top dog for a short while.
tbh there is not real point talking to this guy - he loves his cheese units, but wants desperately to believe its his skill that wins games so of course they can't be OP otherwise somehow his amazing wins would be down to something other than god like tactical genius rather than just picking the most powerful units and spamming them.
It hilarious that he keeps saying its jealousy when Eldar Players say Wave Serpents are OP.
Don't forget that Drop Pods are obviously the most OP thing in 40k.
You misunderstand me (and my 'pod reference). I suppose I should preface posts like that with 'I believe the Serpent is certainly OP'. The scope within which I was comparing it to the 'pod was where it was claimed that the serpent would be worth 145 points just for ensuring the contents got where they wanted to go. Meaning no shooting, Shield or otherwise. I brought up Pods to show that just getting the unit to where you want probably isn't worth 145 on its own.
I believe I went further to say that, at its current price, if it flatly lost the Sheild's shooting, the Serpent would probably be marginally overcosted. And brought up the Devilfish as a better comparison than a Land Raider or Rhino.
To sum it up: Serpents are probably worth 3x a Pod, possibly four - *if* the shield didn't shoot at all.
To go further, even immobile, 3xPods are more survivable than 1x Serpent. Serpent has notably better weaponry and mobility, but substantially worse survivablity and spread (there are 3 pods!). I'd give transport to the 3x Pods too, but there are pros and cons to both.
The 'DP is equal to a Serpent' is a strawman, given birth due to lack of clarity. Sorry 'bout that.
Aside from Bikes, Fire Dragons and Scorpions, Eldar get 4+ armour on anyone other than the exarch, and 5+ only on Guardians, all of which are T3 (T4 for bikers bike). A S6 TFC blast will insta kill any of them, as will any S7 plasmas, kraks and lascannons.
Actually we have 3+ on Warp Spiders and Wraithblades/guards too.
But the only 2+ in all the codex is the vastly underpowered phoenix lords.
Eh, I won't argue with you there, the Phoenix Lords are pretty crappy. Still, Guardian Jetbikes should probably only have 4+ saves, there isn't any reason for them to get +2 to their save and +1T for riding a bike. That's a pretty minor quibble though imho.
Again, the Wave Serpent is not worth its cost if it doesn't fire the shield.
A transport that holds 12 that is practically guaranteed to deliver its payload by turn 2 is damn near priceless, without ever taking a shot.
If it had anything deadly that could assault /shoot out of it ?
If it was really guaranteed ?
Then it would almost be as good as a Drop Pod, for four times the price in an army that doesn't really have anything worth transporting for 145 points.
Eh, I won't argue that conceptually, drop pods are a tad broken, conceptually and for their price - guaranteed delivery (as long as you don't fall off the table) means that you can basically point and click a unit off the board on arrival. However, drop pods come with drawbacks, such as tactical inflexibility (they either show up immediately or in the next 3 turns), immobility, piss poor firepower, the discharged unit is stranded for the rest of the game and that they can't protect their unit once they have arrived... all of which are things that the Wave Serpent can do, I might add, in addition to their other perks. Sure, they won't get a turn 1 drop on someone, but they shouldn't have too much trouble moving up the board and discharging their contents... assuming that's even necessary.
Bharring wrote: For just delivering the unit, transporting 12 for 145 points to almost certainly get there, versus transporting 10 for 35 points to guarentee arrival, and most likely sooner?
The Serpent is OP, but if you completely removed the shield's shooting, it'd be overcosted (albeit not unusably so). Compare it to the 80pt Devilfish that nobody cares for.
People pay 250pts for Land Raiders to guarantee that their contents make it through alive, and a Land Raider doesn't have nearly as much firepower as a Wave Serpent (and I think, mathematically, is less survivable against most things too). Of course, Land Raiders pay the tax of having the Assault Vehicle rule, but most things a Wave Serpent delivers are shooty anyway.
AV14-14-14, more AT firepower, less saturation, assault vehicle.
In terms of synergy, the LR can transport really dangerous stuff.
The Wave Serpent not so much.
What, T6, 2+ to wound, instant death flamers aren't good enough? Expensive I know, but they're not even the best things in the Codex to use a Wave Serpent for.
Apparently, it's just you and some other guys who can't stand their army being the underdog, and Eldar being top dog for a short while.
tbh there is not real point talking to this guy - he loves his cheese units, but wants desperately to believe its his skill that wins games so of course they can't be OP otherwise somehow his amazing wins would be down to something other than god like tactical genius rather than just picking the most powerful units and spamming them.
It hilarious that he keeps saying its jealousy when Eldar Players say Wave Serpents are OP.
What, T6, 2+ to wound, instant death flamers aren't good enough? Expensive I know, but they're not even the best things in the Codex to use a Wave Serpent for.
You cannot assault out of a Wave Serpent, you can disembark, then die.
If you wanted to disembark and shoot, it could be nice, except that you cannot disembark when moving more than 6", and cannot move after disembarking if you moved before, making the WS's mobility only good at getting in position the turn before it disembarks, and pray the enemy does not charge you / prevent you from moving away with the transport.
There are two units in the codex you might want to use a Wave Serpent to transport.
In that case, you're throwing away a 145 point transport by bringing it into assault range to deliver a 110 point one-shot melta unit or a 250 point one-shot WTF-flamer unit.
Depending on the day, it may be worth spending 255 to 395 points to deliver a single serious blow, if your opponent lets you.
If you want comparisons, losing the drop pod doesn't matter (it's almost free and provides an additional target for your opponent), and a Land Raider is not afraid of assault against most targets (except of course the emperor's finest or necrons, which have troops that can handle AV14. all the shenanigans).
As a pure transport or without the Serpent shield, the Wave Serpent would be extremely overcosted.
You cannot assault out of a Wave Serpent, you can disembark, then die.
If you wanted to disembark and shoot, it could be nice, except that you cannot disembark when moving more than 6", and cannot move after disembarking if you moved before, making the WS's mobility only good at getting in position the turn before it disembarks, and pray the enemy does not charge you / prevent you from moving away with the transport.
So, turn 1: move 12", flat out another 18" for a total of 30" or fire turret weapon, preserve shield to as near as possible guarantee survival to turn 2
Turn 2: move 6", disembark within 6", for ~11" from starting point for a possible total of 41" of movement from starting position. Fire all weapons plus the contents of whatever was embarked.
Plus you've probably got another 3 units minimum doing exactly the same thing.
The enemy charging you isn't relevant, as you ensure you finish your movement at end of turn one outside of anything scary's threat range, because your threat range when moving and disembarking 6" is essentially equal to or greater the majority of assault range of many units.
At this point I'm going to say you've got absolutely no idea about playing 40K, I wouldn't even be surprised if you've never actual,y played a game and are just some sort of armchair gamer.
Movement/pivoting changed in 7th, and the only door is in the av10 rear. Still a lot of movement, but there are some limitations. (And the Serpent is quite long).
I do agree Jetbikes should be 4+, and probably needs 5 to be troops, but I don't think they're game-breakingly broken.
Sorry but...anyone whose played against Wave Spam already knowd its uber. No amout of "but but but" is going to fool anyone and no one who pays even remote attention to tournaments is going to fall for it either.
If someone wants to prove how "not powerful" they are: play without them. I do. My list has zero wave spam.
So youre not using Wave Spam becayse theyre NOT powerful. Sorry. The evidence is just enormous that they are uber. Dont sell out your integrity by suggesting otherwise.
(Once again, im *not* saying the Serpent isn't currently OP. Quite the opposite.)
As for Serpent positioning:
Outside Charge threat range is 18+ inches
Enemy can move away on his turn 6+ inches, for 24+ inches
From there, either:
Serpent moves forward 6", for 18"
Disembark, and move around chassis, for <6", minus chassis length, leaving you outside 18" by more than the chassis length
Or:
Serpent turns around, and moves its rear 6" closer than it started, for a gain of 6" minus chassis length, getting to 18"+ plus chassis length
Unit disembarks for 6", remaining 12"+ plus chassis length
Even if the unit can battle focus, it can't even overcome he chassis length, remaining outside 12".
The three main threats (Fragons, Wraithguard, and Scytheguard) all have 12" or less range.
So, while the Serpent is amazing in practice, looking at it in a void like this doesn't rally show it.
(Also, note that Scytheguard are s4 flamers. Autowound on 6 and ap2, but doesn't wound on 2s any more than Boltguns do.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: (I heavily limit my Serpents because they're broken. Haven't fielded a second since last year, and usually only field one to get my Fragons into position. So same boat. I'm just trying to be more specific about what it can and can't do.)
You can always turn the Serpent at 90 degrees to the threat with the rear pointing at whichever flank poses the least threat, this circumvents the issue of the length of the hull and pivots.
Mitigates, but doesn't eliminate. Between this and Battle focus, Fragons might get non-melta range. Even with battle focus, Wraiths can't.
The better solution is to make backing off a worse idea, but we need a more complete understanding of the field. Or use them as a threat-in-being. Guardians can be effective that way.
Either way, the fact remains that my point remains broadly intact, irrespective of an inch or two of total movement. Especially when you consider that moving away from WS probably just means moving towards another.
Or, if the table conditions don't suit, one can always just stand off and shoot, which Serpents also do with extraordinary efficiency.
Or roll the dice ever so slightly and hope the durability holds out til turn three.
But it is, of course, the fact that all these options are viable that make Serpents what they are.
All that is because the Serpent can outshoot most gunlines.
In regarded to an inch or two not mattering, when its the 12th/13th inch and you've got a 9/10/12" range, it sure as hell matters. And that is exactly the inch or two we're talking about.
Serpents are broken and they can usually get their payload where they need to get to. But it has its limits (such as closing more than 12" of range for the guys inside when they disembark).
Still, all that isn't categorically better than a droppod when it comes to putting people where you want them. Some pros (can hide longer) and some cons (is threatened by charges and/or rear armor), but certainly not categorically better on that point alone.
Bharring wrote: (Also, note that Scytheguard are s4 flamers. Autowound on 6 and ap2, but doesn't wound on 2s any more than Boltguns do.)
Ah sorry, I had forgotten their exact rules, I remember having to face them on a few occasions when the new Codex dropped. My opponent enjoyed loading up 2 Serpents with 5 D-scythe Wraithguard and I'd have to desperately try to eliminate one before they got near me... didn't work out so well at the time.
For all this talk about disembarking though, I have to remind people that Wave Serpents don't exactly need to disembark their squad to be effective. At the local tournament, the top list won 4/4 major victories without even disembarking his 5 Wave Serpents. Heck, the 2nd placed player won all their games too and I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't disembark at all either.
Stuff like the supposed 2+ wounding flamers are one of the reasons I'm still engaged in this conversation. For all the awesome in the Eldar dex, there is a lot out there that people seem to believe but isn't true.
As for the disembark/don't disembark, most "competitive" Eldar builds (read: curbstompingly OP) have, at its core 4+ Davus, which is where you take a minimum squad of DAs just to allow you to take a Serpent. The DAs have no need to disembark - they might as well not exist. It is probably the purest of Serpent abuse.
Question - which is more brutal: 3x LRs with Termies, or 4x Serpents with Scytheguard? I'd think they'd be about the same league. Or would be, if the Serpent's shield weren't so OP.
(The spirit of this thread appears to be what in the Eldar dex is OP, not whether or not Eldar is OP right now. Most agree the Serpent's shooty shield is, and I'm trying to discuss what else might be.)
4 Land Raiders are really hard to kill. Unfortunately, they dont fire 14 HIGH STR shots some of which ignore cover on skimmers and which are 60 inch range.
OP have you found your answers? I'm curious as well with playing Eldar, since I haven't for a while but all I'm seeing here is pretty much 6 pages of "Wave Serpents are OP and you're TFG if you use one".
I have 1, normally use 3 Falcons because I use the Pulse Laser with a Scatter Laser (Laser Lock) to damage transports to stop them getting at any foot based things I have since my main opponents are Tau and Dark Eldar.
I stopped playing after going up against a Guard player with one of The Baneblade type tanks twice. 1st turn no save of any type everything insta-killed half army and then him turning it 90 and shooting dead everything else in the next turn just made me think F it. I've never won a single game with them in 4 years of playing them alone. With Allied Tau or Allied Dark Eldar fared better at 50% but most of the Eldar were dead.
Reducing the serpent shield to 12" or 18", or wholly removing its offensive ability, hell, even additionally nerfing its defensive ability to only work on a die roll (like 3+ or 4+) and/or raising its points cost by 15-25 points should fix that.
WKs should be fine as is - theyre pretty expensive.
Nobody asked for armywide shuriken quasi-rending, so if GW limits that to DA only, that'd also be fine by me.
And Swooping hawks might see their haywires removed, which would suck, but given what GW did to DE, no surprise.
Harlequins might be removed from the next codex and sold separately as add-on.
Hope they dont nerf anything else.
The only thing that would make you a real TFG apart from spamming WS is if you ally with DE.
I only use 1 WS and I've yet to fire the shield since the codex dropped. They aren't that OP just a good solid codex IMHO. I can beat them with other armies and have been beaten by other's too.
Jancoran wrote: 4 Land Raiders are really hard to kill. Unfortunately, they dont fire 14 HIGH STR shots some of which ignore cover on skimmers and which are 60 inch range.
How about 4 Storm Gunships ? They fire really high strength low AP shots in decent volume with decent range. Plus they're hard to hit and to kill.
I don't know where you get your 14 High STR shots, but Eldar only get 3 shots at 24" (charge range, won't try), 4 shots at 36" (good) and 1+1d6 shots at 60" (pointless without the 36" before it).
In the most offensive case, you get 7 S6 shots without AP and 4.5 S7 shots without AP out of them, most of the time it's 4S6 and 4.5 S7.
Is it great ? sure. Better than two assault canons with rending ? no.
Against most targets, the ignores cover without AP is pointless, against light vehicles it's good and that's about it.
Compare that to the Storm Gunship of doom ? which can easily kill a land raider or a wave serpent, has AP and a very decent volume of shots plus the ability to throw pie plates ?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sir Arun wrote: The only thing that would make you a real TFG apart from spamming WS is if you ally with DE.
As long as you're fine with insulting people just based on the armies they want to play, sure.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SkyD wrote: OP have you found your answers? I'm curious as well with playing Eldar, since I haven't for a while but all I'm seeing here is pretty much 6 pages of "Wave Serpents are OP and you're TFG if you use one".
I have 1, normally use 3 Falcons because I use the Pulse Laser with a Scatter Laser (Laser Lock) to damage transports to stop them getting at any foot based things I have since my main opponents are Tau and Dark Eldar.
I stopped playing after going up against a Guard player with one of The Baneblade type tanks twice. 1st turn no save of any type everything insta-killed half army and then him turning it 90 and shooting dead everything else in the next turn just made me think F it. I've never won a single game with them in 4 years of playing them alone. With Allied Tau or Allied Dark Eldar fared better at 50% but most of the Eldar were dead.
And that's what happens when you try Soft Eldar against the other races, they just spam their iWin buttons in your face.
Try the good units in the codex for a change, if only to see the difference between a good and a bad unit.
But really, people complaining about Wave Serpents and bringing Baneblades or Imperial Knights is a bad joke.
As a GK player I can handle Imperial Knights quite easily, which is saying something when my only real high STR weapon is a Init 1 hammer or my DK going toe to toe with the IK. 2 knights and I start get a little uneasy, but I can still handle it, after all the knights are coming to YOU.
Wave Serpents dictate the battle with their range and ignore cover, which means you either need a fast delivery system or a even stronger longer range gunline.
With the Alpha strike GK have I can reasonably kill on average 1 maybe 2 Wave Serpents on the first turn. If I'm facing spam I got at least another 4 left to deal with. After that initial turn I start to fall off as the WS can fly over my units so I can't force an assault where I would be almost assuredly able to destroy all the vehicles. So I have to start chasing them with my Dreadknights while my troops slowly meander to the midfield. If I brought a Stormraven that becomes my backup plan to take out another one.
Thankfully it was only two games I had to play spam... the other guy took pity on me after this.
I don't know where you get your 14 High STR shots, but Eldar only get 3 shots at 24" (charge range, won't try), 4 shots at 36" (good) and 1+1d6 shots at 60" (pointless without the 36" before it).
In the most offensive case, you get 7 S6 shots without AP and 4.5 S7 shots without AP out of them, most of the time it's 4S6 and 4.5 S7.
Is it great ? sure. Better than two assault canons with rending ? no.
Against most targets, the ignores cover without AP is pointless, against light vehicles it's good and that's about it.
Compare that to the Storm Gunship of doom ? which can easily kill a land raider or a wave serpent, has AP and a very decent volume of shots plus the ability to throw pie plates ?
.
So wait...by comparing it to something thats also OP, you seek to make your case?
Well... Thats certainly one way to look at it. Another is to recognize when two things can be broken. I think this is one of those times.
Not every army has a good way of dealing with everything out there, first off. As a Necron, my main way of dealing with vehicles is Gauss, which glances on 6s, but can't get through a 3+ cover say reliably. None of my stuff can, as I DON'T have anything with ignores cover, except a Sweeping attack from an Overlord, but I have to be decently close. By the time I'm close, your "not overpowered" transport has glanced most of my vehicles to death because I can't do anything about it.
So no, I don't have an "efficient" way to deal with it.
You've got scarabs that eat serpents for breakfast.
There's a bat-rep of scarab farm necron playing in a tournament and winning vs a regular eldar tournament min-max list.
SkyD wrote: OP have you found your answers? I'm curious as well with playing Eldar, since I haven't for a while but all I'm seeing here is pretty much 6 pages of "Wave Serpents are OP and you're TFG if you use one".
I have 1, normally use 3 Falcons because I use the Pulse Laser with a Scatter Laser (Laser Lock) to damage transports to stop them getting at any foot based things I have since my main opponents are Tau and Dark Eldar.
I stopped playing after going up against a Guard player with one of The Baneblade type tanks twice. 1st turn no save of any type everything insta-killed half army and then him turning it 90 and shooting dead everything else in the next turn just made me think F it. I've never won a single game with them in 4 years of playing them alone. With Allied Tau or Allied Dark Eldar fared better at 50% but most of the Eldar were dead.
And that's what happens when you try Soft Eldar against the other races, they just spam their iWin buttons in your face.
Try the good units in the codex for a change, if only to see the difference between a good and a bad unit.
But really, people complaining about Wave Serpents and bringing Baneblades or Imperial Knights is a bad joke.
Except SkyD is lying and never played vs a tank that is capable of 1 shotting half an Eldar Army with no saves of any kinds allowed. A Baneblade is a huge liability for an IG player and the only Baneblade that denies you any saves is the Shadowsword on a roll of 6. If you're going to argue that a large blast = half your army, then you're beyond ridiculous.
Not every army has a good way of dealing with everything out there, first off. As a Necron, my main way of dealing with vehicles is Gauss, which glances on 6s, but can't get through a 3+ cover say reliably. None of my stuff can, as I DON'T have anything with ignores cover, except a Sweeping attack from an Overlord, but I have to be decently close. By the time I'm close, your "not overpowered" transport has glanced most of my vehicles to death because I can't do anything about it.
So no, I don't have an "efficient" way to deal with it.
You've got scarabs that eat serpents for breakfast.
There's a bat-rep of scarab farm necron playing in a tournament and winning vs a regular eldar tournament min-max list.
And that Eldar player is bad, because you can't convince anyone but Morgoth that anything will ever catch a 30" redeploying Wave Serpent in assault.
Jancoran wrote: So wait...by comparing it to something thats also OP, you seek to make your case?
Well... Thats certainly one way to look at it. Another is to recognize when two things can be broken. I think this is one of those times.
I'm sorry, did I miss the 50+ threads screaming StormGunship OP ?
Thought so.
Not every army has a good way of dealing with everything out there, first off. As a Necron, my main way of dealing with vehicles is Gauss, which glances on 6s, but can't get through a 3+ cover say reliably. None of my stuff can, as I DON'T have anything with ignores cover, except a Sweeping attack from an Overlord, but I have to be decently close. By the time I'm close, your "not overpowered" transport has glanced most of my vehicles to death because I can't do anything about it.
So no, I don't have an "efficient" way to deal with it.
You've got scarabs that eat serpents for breakfast.
There's a bat-rep of scarab farm necron playing in a tournament and winning vs a regular eldar tournament min-max list.
Ridiculous.
Not only is it extremely easy to win with AV13 Wall Necrons against Mechdar (barring objectives), scarabs get ID by Wave Serpents and are only a distraction for a turn or two at most.
The only thing that can reliably break AV13 Wall is CC, and a competitive Eldar list usually has two WK. Not quite enough to deal with a dozen AV13 vehicles.
This was of course not so visible before as various deathstars were the core of competitive builds.
Try the good units in the codex for a change, if only to see the difference between a good and a bad unit.
Like? Didn't matter if they were tanks or Titans, that wedding cake plate killed anything on a 2.
Not Wave Serpents.
Not Titans.
Not Super Heavies.
When your opponent fields a Baneblade, bring a Lynx.
It's like Imperial Knights, somehow you should deal with D-strength and other Apocalypse stuff without bringing your own ? come on, it's not impossible but it's warped alright.
In regards to the Stormraven (I assume you mean Stormraven when you say "Storm Gunship"), it costs 200pts (230pts with Hurricane Bolters if you want more comparable dakka), takes up a Heavy Support slot and is a flyer. These are pretty big differences from a Wave Serpent. You complain about having to take a unit inside the Wave Serpent, but you're looking at upwards of 300pts (or even more) to load something inside a Stormraven, and they can get annihilated in 1 shot if the ship goes down. This is actually easier than taking down a Wave Serpent because dedicated AA systems, other flyers or massed/lucky/twin-linked AT fire can take it down if they need to. Still difficult, but they can definitely run into some hard counters.
Then there's the fact that they take Heavy Slots (for C:SM at least). This is pretty crucial because SM need those Heavy Slots for much cheaper AT or AA choices, so by spamming Stormravens they're weakening themselves elsewhere. Compare this to Wave Serpents which can actually be spammed with ease without worrying about gimping yourself elsewhere.
Also, you need to take their flyer status into account. Flyers' speed is balanced by their lack of maneuverability. They have to start off the board (meaning they may not arrive until Turn 4), and their available targets will be restricted by firing and movement arcs. Unless they enter hover mode, they may get 3 turns of shooting (or less) all game. And if they do enter hover mode, their survivability drops sharply.
So yes, Stormravens are dangerous, but they have their drawbacks (valuable FOC slots, expensive, limited impact time, have to choose either maneuverability or survivability).
Andilus Greatsword wrote: In regards to the Stormraven (I assume you mean Stormraven when you say "Storm Gunship"), it costs 200pts (230pts with Hurricane Bolters if you want more comparable dakka), takes up a Heavy Support slot and is a flyer. These are pretty big differences from a Wave Serpent. You complain about having to take a unit inside the Wave Serpent, but you're looking at upwards of 300pts (or even more) to load something inside a Stormraven, and they can get annihilated in 1 shot if the ship goes down. This is actually easier than taking down a Wave Serpent because dedicated AA systems, other flyers or massed/lucky/twin-linked AT fire can take it down if they need to. Still difficult, but they can definitely run into some hard counters.
Then there's the fact that they take Heavy Slots (for C:SM at least). This is pretty crucial because SM need those Heavy Slots for much cheaper AT or AA choices, so by spamming Stormravens they're weakening themselves elsewhere. Compare this to Wave Serpents which can actually be spammed with ease without worrying about gimping yourself elsewhere.
Also, you need to take their flyer status into account. Flyers' speed is balanced by their lack of maneuverability. They have to start off the board (meaning they may not arrive until Turn 4), and their available targets will be restricted by firing and movement arcs. Unless they enter hover mode, they may get 3 turns of shooting (or less) all game. And if they do enter hover mode, their survivability drops sharply.
So yes, Stormravens are dangerous, but they have their drawbacks (valuable FOC slots, expensive, limited impact time, have to choose either maneuverability or survivability).
Once again, we come back to the real issue: FOC slots, i.e. the Wave Serpent is not OP but its ability to "break" the standard CAD schema is heavy when you consider the game only within CAD boundaries.
The Stormraven is clearly better than the Wave Serpent, there's no reason to put anything in it - there's no reason to put anything in a Wave Serpent either, but you have no choice.
AV12, Jink and Hard to Hit is not easier to kill than a Wave Serpent by any means, and numbers will completely overflow any specific anti-air unless your enemy is naturally anti-air (tesla comes to mind).
I'm not sure that I'd say that that is the "real" issue, but it's part of it. Lower either the survivability or the firepower of the Wave Serpent, and maybe even lower the points cost of the model somewhat if it makes a big enough difference, and then it's fine.
And like I said, Stormravens are pretty good, but FOC is not their only drawback. You can't forget the cost, movement limitations and that they're probably only going to be on the board for half the game if they don't want to get shot down.
Andilus Greatsword wrote: I'm not sure that I'd say that that is the "real" issue, but it's part of it. Lower either the survivability or the firepower of the Wave Serpent, and maybe even lower the points cost of the model somewhat if it makes a big enough difference, and then it's fine.
And like I said, Stormravens are pretty good, but FOC is not their only drawback. You can't forget the cost, movement limitations and that they're probably only going to be on the board for half the game if they don't want to get shot down.
There are plenty of units that do better than 5 DA + 1 WS for 210 points.
In the end, the Wave Serpent is fine, it's just CAD restrictions that are more and more out of place.
pm713 wrote: What I've gathered from the thread is that Eldar overall aren't OP except Wave Serpents.
Is this right or wrong?
With the addition of basic troops with rending weapons and jetbikes that are much too cheap and also confer a 3+ save for some reason that's pretty much it.
pm713 wrote: Do explain how rending (not that great) and T4 3+ with 12" guns is OP.
I really don't see how a jetbike is OP.
It's essentially a rending turbo boosting marine, who can claim victory points every single round because of its mobility. It has objective secured, no reason to have BS 4 all of the sudden, no reason to have 3+ save and also has the ability to jink, if shot with low ap weapons. It's not really the fact that it does all those thing, but the fact that it sits in the troop selection and gets objective secured, sorta like the same issue with Wave Serpent. I'd have no problem with the unit, if it was in fast attack.
pm713 wrote: Do explain how rending (not that great) and T4 3+ with 12" guns is OP.
I really don't see how a jetbike is OP.
This post summed up why the Eldar Jetbike doesn't follow a consistent design philosophy (Much like many of the balance issues in the game really)
MajorWesJanson wrote: Besides the Wave Serpent, I personally have an issue with the Guardian Jetbike. Why is it so strong for the price it pays? It's a troop unit, has Eldar Jetbike rules, and gives 3+ armor for no apparent reason. Compare to other bike units, and most follow a pattern-
Space Marine biker- Grants Bike, +1T, twinlinked bolter for +7 points over a Tactical marine. Fast Attack unless you take a unit of 5 and a CM/Captain on a bike.
Ork Biker- Grants Bike, +1T, TL Dakkagun, and 4+ 'Eavy armor for +12 points over an ork boy (who can buy 'eavy armor for 4 points, so call it +8 for the bike). FA only.
DE Reaver Jetbike- Grants Eldar Jetbike, +1T, Single linked Splinter rifle, 5+ Armor, Bladevanes, for +6 points over a Wych, or +8 points over a warrior. FA only.
Guardian Jetbike- Grants Eldar Jetbike, +1T, TL Shuricat, 3+ armor, for 8 points over a guardian. Troops by default.
Where is the 3+ armor coming from? They clearly aren't paying the points for it. Orks get a bump ffrom 6+ to 4+, and that increase is built into the cost of the bikers. Marines start with 3+ and stay 3+. Dark Eldar start with 6+, and go up to 5+, but they are hybrid Warriors/Wyches when it comes to armor and wargear. But Windrider Jetbikes start with 5+ mesh armor, and somehow the bike gives them 3+ for free?
Andilus Greatsword wrote: I'm not sure that I'd say that that is the "real" issue, but it's part of it. Lower either the survivability or the firepower of the Wave Serpent, and maybe even lower the points cost of the model somewhat if it makes a big enough difference, and then it's fine.
And like I said, Stormravens are pretty good, but FOC is not their only drawback. You can't forget the cost, movement limitations and that they're probably only going to be on the board for half the game if they don't want to get shot down.
There are plenty of units that do better than 5 DA + 1 WS for 210 points.
Please list them and try to actually consider the various and OP advantages of the unit you are comparing to. (for once)..
pm713 wrote: Do explain how rending (not that great) and T4 3+ with 12" guns is OP.
I really don't see how a jetbike is OP.
It's really simple. Just follow the thought pattern of the "Eldar OP" crowd:
Jetbike is Eldar
Eldar is OP Jetbike is OP
Ignore ATSKNF, krak grenades, 24" bolters, squad options, rhinos, pods, just about anything the marines have that the jetbikes do not, and you'll see their point rather clearly.
pm713 wrote: Do explain how rending (not that great) and T4 3+ with 12" guns is OP.
I really don't see how a jetbike is OP.
It's really simple. Just follow the thought pattern of the "Eldar OP" crowd:
Jetbike is Eldar
Eldar is OP Jetbike is OP
Ignore ATSKNF, krak grenades, 24" bolters, squad options, rhinos, pods, just about anything the marines have that the jetbikes do not, and you'll see their point rather clearly.
Or the Eldar are underpowered, Wave Serpents are rubbish nonsense that this guy spouts
pm713 wrote: It also has 12" guns so can't do that much and really isn't that tough.
Eldar's high mobility from move run then shoot, increases that range to 18 inches. That means if any other unit can shoot an Eldar one, then the next turn eldar can fire back with an assault 2 weapon.
To answer your previous question, other than the Wave Serpent being OP. For the rest of eldar its a combination of a bunch of really great smaller rules like the example above and many others. Swooping hawks don't scatter and can go to and from reserve at will. Warp Spiders can a 24 inch total a turn and still shoot an assault 2 str 6 weapon. Jetbikes that are comparable to marine versions while still being significantly cheaper. Best psy powers in the game. The list goes on and on. One or two by themselves is not a big deal. But all together you should begin to see why it is the most powerful codex right now.
I'm sorry, did I miss the 50+ threads screaming StormGunship OP ?
Thought so.
Thats your response? Look Morgoth, I am unsure why you want anyone to think that just because Wave Spam CAN be defeated (and i built at least two of my armies, Chaos and Dark Eldar, to be very effective at it) does not change the fact that it is enormously effective and I guess i just remember all the Blood angels in 5E who wanted me to agree with them that they werent powerful either. Gimme a break. I'd be less annoyed by them if the guys using them would just stop protesting so much and say "Yeah...they are good, arent they?" and moved on.
People DO over react a lot as a rule anyways in the gamerz circles. I'm not saying that there hasnt been on occassion legitimate reason to raise an eyebrow. But the Serpent Shield not only makes no sense as its written now, but is the ONLY reason the Eldar codex is considered in this way. Its as obvious as the nose on your face.
pm713 wrote: It also has 12" guns so can't do that much and really isn't that tough.
Eldar's high mobility from move run then shoot, increases that range to 18 inches. That means if any other unit can shoot an Eldar one, then the next turn eldar can fire back with an assault 2 weapon.
pm713 wrote: It also has 12" guns so can't do that much and really isn't that tough.
Eldar's high mobility from move run then shoot, increases that range to 18 inches. That means if any other unit can shoot an Eldar one, then the next turn eldar can fire back with an assault 2 weapon.
To answer your previous question, other than the Wave Serpent being OP. For the rest of eldar its a combination of a bunch of really great smaller rules like the example above and many others. Swooping hawks don't scatter and can go to and from reserve at will. Warp Spiders can a 24 inch total a turn and still shoot an assault 2 str 6 weapon. Jetbikes that are comparable to marine versions while still being significantly cheaper. Best psy powers in the game. The list goes on and on. One or two by themselves is not a big deal. But all together you should begin to see why it is the most powerful codex right now.
The reason people even whine about Eldar is that they had a good dominating run.
That run was mostly Seerstar and BeastStar until the end of 6th (at which point they were tied in K/D against Daemons, Necrons, Tau and Space Marines), and mostly BeastStar until the new DE codex.
It's not even clear yet if the Eldar are going to remain top dog, and that's in a meta where the other armies do not even tailor to handle Eldar specifically but instead focus on their own combos.
That's all the facts there are about "Eldar OP", so whatever you read in the units is probably not as relevant as you think it is.
I'm sorry, did I miss the 50+ threads screaming StormGunship OP ?
Thought so.
Thats your response? Look Morgoth, I am unsure why you want anyone to think that just because Wave Spam CAN be defeated (and i built at least two of my armies, Chaos and Dark Eldar, to be very effective at it) does not change the fact that it is enormously effective and I guess i just remember all the Blood angels in 5E who wanted me to agree with them that they werent powerful either. Gimme a break. I'd be less annoyed by them if the guys using them would just stop protesting so much and say "Yeah...they are good, arent they?" and moved on.
People DO over react a lot as a rule anyways in the gamerz circles. I'm not saying that there hasnt been on occassion legitimate reason to raise an eyebrow. But the Serpent Shield not only makes no sense as its written now, but is the ONLY reason the Eldar codex is considered in this way. Its as obvious as the nose on your face.
As written quite a few times already, the only reason there's even this whole "eldar op" mentality is that a few combos messed up the competitive scene between Codex Eldar and Codex Dark Eldar.
No matter what you think about Wave Serpents, during all that time, they were nothing more than a support unit to a Deathstar core.
Wave Serpents are good.
Anyone calling them OP is clearly ignoring the power level of many other things.
pm713 wrote: It also has 12" guns so can't do that much and really isn't that tough.
Eldar's high mobility from move run then shoot, increases that range to 18 inches. That means if any other unit can shoot an Eldar one, then the next turn eldar can fire back with an assault 2 weapon.
The bike can't do that. No jetbikes can.
But I do see the point in the rest of the post.
The jetbike can, windriders have battle focus. You can move 12", run w/o fleet, shoot and then 2d6" move in assault. OR preferably, move 12", shoot, run away, run some more away.
Either way, that's irrelevant since those Windriders MSU can basically just snag objectives that are away from the center, and on a standard table, that'll be about the same range as any bike with flat out can manage. - about - . sometimes the Eldar +36" will pay off and yes that's real nice. But you can't call jetbikes OP just because sometimes in some missions, they happen to have a use.
If they had another use than just snagging objectives, I'd say they're incredibly good in Maelstrom, but they just don't cut it for anything else but that.
pm713 wrote: It also has 12" guns so can't do that much and really isn't that tough.
Eldar's high mobility from move run then shoot, increases that range to 18 inches. That means if any other unit can shoot an Eldar one, then the next turn eldar can fire back with an assault 2 weapon.
The bike can't do that. No jetbikes can.
But I do see the point in the rest of the post.
I misread, I though you were talking about Eldar guns in general. However, the Jetbike can do 12 inches without turbo boosting. So the point still stands. Their weapons effective range is 24 inches for two shots. That negates range advantage for most regular units including regular marines.
MWHistorian wrote: Some say it's the Eldar's turn to be top dog. I disagree with the notion that there should even be a top dog.
It is interesting that the history of the game has engendered an acceptance of such army rankings. I think Eldar has had more than enough time as one of the top armies. There have not been many times where they aren't near the top in terms of relative power.
I still refuse to agree WS are not OP. Considering I play a good bit of AV13, a WS can kill my vehicles with more ease than a Space Marine Devastator squad. There is obviously something wrong there.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MWHistorian wrote: Some say it's the Eldar's turn to be top dog. I disagree with the notion that there should even be a top dog.
Andilus Greatsword wrote: I'm not sure that I'd say that that is the "real" issue, but it's part of it. Lower either the survivability or the firepower of the Wave Serpent, and maybe even lower the points cost of the model somewhat if it makes a big enough difference, and then it's fine.
And like I said, Stormravens are pretty good, but FOC is not their only drawback. You can't forget the cost, movement limitations and that they're probably only going to be on the board for half the game if they don't want to get shot down.
There are plenty of units that do better than 5 DA + 1 WS for 210 points.
In the end, the Wave Serpent is fine, it's just CAD restrictions that are more and more out of place.
I dunno about that, you could get a better unit if you'd spend less points spamming transports and more on the things inside of them. Sure, your army won't be as OP/spammy, but at least it will be funner.
As for FOC, it isn't helping matters any, but it's not the sole problem with WS.
pm713 wrote: Do explain how rending (not that great) and T4 3+ with 12" guns is OP.
I really don't see how a jetbike is OP.
They're not OP per se, they're just too good for their cheap cost. They could do with a points bump or some slight toning down.
Ignore ATSKNF, krak grenades, 24" bolters, squad options, rhinos, pods, just about anything the marines have that the jetbikes do not, and you'll see their point rather clearly.
ATSKNF is obnoxious as it is, yes, but that's not why we're here. Krak grenades and squad options? I'm sorry, you can have a squad leader that has an at Init Powerfist and can be BS5 with a rending pistol. And you don't NEED squad options, because each of your units have a different role and they sure as hell do that role well. And 24" bolters? You have 18" two-shot rending weapons, and can run and shoot. It negates that entirely. Rhinos, well the Serpent Shield can sit comfortably 60' away and kill Rhino's like it's nothing.
Ignore ATSKNF, krak grenades, 24" bolters, squad options, rhinos, pods, just about anything the marines have that the jetbikes do not, and you'll see their point rather clearly.
ATSKNF is obnoxious as it is, yes, but that's not why we're here. Krak grenades and squad options? I'm sorry, you can have a squad leader that has an at Init Powerfist and can be BS5 with a rending pistol. And you don't NEED squad options, because each of your units have a different role and they sure as hell do that role well. And 24" bolters? You have 18" two-shot rending weapons, and can run and shoot. It negates that entirely. Rhinos, well the Serpent Shield can sit comfortably 60' away and kill Rhino's like it's nothing.
Who would call the common rhino op!? He's still deflecting so hard, I mean he's already agreed they are in the spotlight and he wants them to be that way.
Ignore ATSKNF, krak grenades, 24" bolters, squad options, rhinos, pods, just about anything the marines have that the jetbikes do not, and you'll see their point rather clearly.
ATSKNF is obnoxious as it is, yes, but that's not why we're here. Krak grenades and squad options? I'm sorry, you can have a squad leader that has an at Init Powerfist and can be BS5 with a rending pistol. And you don't NEED squad options, because each of your units have a different role and they sure as hell do that role well. And 24" bolters? You have 18" two-shot rending weapons, and can run and shoot. It negates that entirely. Rhinos, well the Serpent Shield can sit comfortably 60' away and kill Rhino's like it's nothing.
Who would call the common rhino op!? He's still deflecting so hard, I mean he's already agreed they are in the spotlight and he wants them to be that way.
I mena, I dunno man, Rhino's are pretty ballin right now. They give my Necrons such a hard time, and when I see like, 4 of them on the board, man I know it's gonna be an uphill battle.
Fight. But! Fight only if ye be men of valor! For the SPEHSS MEHREENS within are guarded by a model so foul, so cruel, that no man yet has fought with it... and lived! BONES of full fifty men lie *strewn* about its hull! So! Brave knights! If you do doubt your courage or your strength, come no further, for death awaits you all with nasty, big, pointy treads!!!
If Wave Serpents are not overperforming why is it, they are the mainstay of 90% of all Eldar army? According to logic if they aren't good as morgoth seems to "believe", then they would not be seen in tournaments as there are better choices.
It is as simple as that, if they were not good they wouldn't be taken regularly, the reason they are is because they give more versatility than a ordinary TAC list.
If Wave Serpents are not overperforming why is it, they are the mainstay of 90% of all Eldar army? According to logic if they aren't good as morgoth seems to "believe", then they would not be seen in tournaments as there are better choices.
It is as simple as that, if they were not good they wouldn't be taken regularly, the reason they are is because they give more versatility than a ordinary TAC list.
If that sort of logic was going to do it for Morgoth, we wouldn't have spent the last 5 or 6 pages arguing with him, unfortunately. He seems to think that the only competitive Eldar lists were Spiritseers and Beastpack.
Out of curiosity, what sorts of lists do you run into in your meta which make you think that WS are reasonable, Morgoth? Since you say that people are failing to adapt to them.
krodarklorr wrote: I still refuse to agree WS are not OP. Considering I play a good bit of AV13, a WS can kill my vehicles with more ease than a Space Marine Devastator squad. There is obviously something wrong there.
But you play Necron, most of your AV13 is very good to begin with.
A WS can kill your vehicles with ease ??? it does 4.5 S7 shots per turn, it needs 4 glances on a Ghost Ark, 24 hits, about 30 shots.
A single Wave Serpent could not even kill it within a 6-turn game !
A Space Marine Devastator squad will do one pen on T1, and then blast you away on AV11 right after.
I dunno about that, you could get a better unit if you'd spend less points spamming transports and more on the things inside of them. Sure, your army won't be as OP/spammy, but at least it will be funner.
If Wave Serpents are not overperforming why is it, they are the mainstay of 90% of all Eldar army? According to logic if they aren't good as morgoth seems to "believe", then they would not be seen in tournaments as there are better choices.
It is as simple as that, if they were not good they wouldn't be taken regularly, the reason they are is because they give more versatility than a ordinary TAC list.
If that sort of logic was going to do it for Morgoth, we wouldn't have spent the last 5 or 6 pages arguing with him, unfortunately. He seems to think that the only competitive Eldar lists were Spiritseers and Beastpack.
Out of curiosity, what sorts of lists do you run into in your meta which make you think that WS are reasonable, Morgoth? Since you say that people are failing to adapt to them.
I'm also curious about his meta. What is he regularly playing that can handle WS spam so easily?
Ignore ATSKNF, krak grenades, 24" bolters, squad options, rhinos, pods, just about anything the marines have that the jetbikes do not, and you'll see their point rather clearly.
ATSKNF is obnoxious as it is, yes, but that's not why we're here. Krak grenades and squad options? I'm sorry, you can have a squad leader that has an at Init Powerfist and can be BS5 with a rending pistol. And you don't NEED squad options, because each of your units have a different role and they sure as hell do that role well. And 24" bolters? You have 18" two-shot rending weapons, and can run and shoot. It negates that entirely. Rhinos, well the Serpent Shield can sit comfortably 60' away and kill Rhino's like it's nothing.
12" weapons that are NOT rending, pseudo-rending against squishies, useless against armor.
Rhinos ? they're upfield anyway.
Serpent Shield ? without the TL (i.e. within 34") it's pointless.
Rhinos are nothing, you can kill them with heavy bolters.
That's how you beat serpents with scarabs. You ain't playing 500 pts vs 1850, right?
That list is horrible.
Your 10 Scarabs will take exactly 10 S6/7 (ID) wounds to get rid off, it's not a good counter to Wave Serpents at all.
With the 5+ save, that's 15 S6/7 shots, i.e. two Wave Serpents for one turn.
If Wave Serpents are not overperforming why is it, they are the mainstay of 90% of all Eldar army? According to logic if they aren't good as morgoth seems to "believe", then they would not be seen in tournaments as there are better choices.
It is as simple as that, if they were not good they wouldn't be taken regularly, the reason they are is because they give more versatility than a ordinary TAC list.
They are the support of 90% of all Eldar competitive lists, because they are good. Unlike a lot of things in the codex, so of course not many alternatives there.
They provide AA when the whole codex does not have a single acceptable option. We have a flyer that costs 150 points and is AV10/10/10. Yes that's right, for the price of a Night Scythe and a Necron warrior squad, we get a paper plane with meh damage output.
They provide volume of fire when the other options are way too squishy. War Walkers just don't last 6 turns.
They are there by default when you need Fire Dragons. The only elite even worth considering, the only option for melta, totally useless without Wave Serpents of course.
But the fact remains, WS are never the core, the core has always been something else and will always be, the WS alone are no good.
If WS were *that* good, competitive players would just take 7-8 and be done with it. No more WK, no more deathstars, no more Warp Spiders, because the WS does it all.
Out of curiosity, what sorts of lists do you run into in your meta which make you think that WS are reasonable, Morgoth? Since you say that people are failing to adapt to them.
Instead, let's stick to a more general discussion: show me a tournament list that was written with WS in mind.
krodarklorr wrote: I still refuse to agree WS are not OP. Considering I play a good bit of AV13, a WS can kill my vehicles with more ease than a Space Marine Devastator squad. There is obviously something wrong there.
But you play Necron, most of your AV13 is very good to begin with.
A WS can kill your vehicles with ease ??? it does 4.5 S7 shots per turn, it needs 4 glances on a Ghost Ark, 24 hits, about 30 shots.
A single Wave Serpent could not even kill it within a 6-turn game !
A Space Marine Devastator squad will do one pen on T1, and then blast you away on AV11 right after.
I've seen it happen. My friend has fired 2 devastator squads at my Ghost Arks for numerous turns in a row and didn't do that much damage, whereas in a single 2000 point game, 3 wave serpents took out both a-barges, a ghost ark, and half of my other ghost ark.
I've seen it happen. My friend has fired 2 devastator squads at my Ghost Arks for numerous turns in a row and didn't do that much damage, whereas in a single 2000 point game, 3 wave serpents took out both a-barges, a ghost ark, and half of my other ghost ark.
Yes, well, my Space Wolf friend, always takes about 2-3 Lascan shots to explodes one of my Wave Serpents, and I always miss the 3+ cover save.
Things like that happen, but it's mostly luck.
pm713 wrote: Do explain how rending (not that great) and T4 3+ with 12" guns is OP.
I really don't see how a jetbike is OP.
It's really simple. Just follow the thought pattern of the "Eldar OP" crowd:
Jetbike is Eldar
Eldar is OP Jetbike is OP
Ignore ATSKNF, krak grenades, 24" bolters, squad options, rhinos, pods, just about anything the marines have that the jetbikes do not, and you'll see their point rather clearly.
This right here is where it is at.
First, assume that the shuriken rule = rending (it doesn't it doesn't touch AV11 no matter how many sixes get rolled). Also, assume Eldar players always roll 6's for wounding and that they always roll 6's for battle focus run moves.
SM bikes are troops with the biker captain. For 4 points a model more they get +1T, +1S, twinlinked 24" guns and can take 3 special guns on a 5 man squad, including grav, melta and plasma options. And a power weapon. Or fist. And a melta bomb and maybe a storm shield or three on the command version. Plus krak grenades, ATSKNF, chapter tactics, etc. Or and they can bring an attack bike (Vyper) free of fast restrictions. And combat squad.
Boo hoo, they can only move 24" instead of 48". The table I play on is 6x4 and generally we're starting 24" apart. 90% of the time there isn't going to be a difference between 24 and 10,000" movement. If you want to complain that jetbikes will fly all across the board to capture the objective, don't leave an objective unguarded and then assault them. In CC and shooting they die like a 3 man tactical marine squad in cover, without a chance at a power weapon or fist or meltabomb. If you can't kill 3 tacticals in close combat, or shooting, your list is fail. Meanwhile, over in Codex Space Marines 105 points gets you a drop pod and a five man squad with the option to take oodles of weapons. Toss in a melta gun, a melta bomb on the sarge, a combi melta and a DWML for the pod and you're sitting at 145 points for 5 T4 3+ bodies, 3 HP on AV 12, 2 melta shots in t1, and a S5 pie plate that will wound any footdar on a 2+.
870 points of SM = 12 OS units, 6 pie plates of dead footdar, 6 units firing melta+6 krak grenades on T1, plus 6 combi melta (or 12 combi plasma) shots on demand. Throw another 70 points a squad and you've got another 6 krak grenades, 18 units in the enemy DZ on T1 (presumably your sternguard/ironclads/TFC pods will drop in T2). You can even drop empty pods and spend 90 points more to pick up 6 plasma cannons or lascannons and camp the backfield. Sure you'll give up kill points in some games, but if your objection is Maelstrom objectives, that's not the issue, is it?
And wave serpents... The reason the Eldar only take Wave Serpents as transports is because the only dedicated transport option they have is Wave Serpents. Give them 35 point drop pod web way portals and they'll go away. The wave serpent is a droneless Devilfish that pays an extra 80 points for a randomized pair of autocannon equivalent that swaps AP4 for AP- and ignore cover. It's a rhino priced as if it had a triple lascannon predator strapped to the roof, but without the 48" range or the AP with half the hull points. Three serpents (pre troop "tax") is the same price as a pair of landraiders, and drop pod or two depending on how many goodies you bought for them.
If the serpent were truly OP, you'd never see jet bikes, wk, fd, or the seerstar (if that's still a thing) in an Eldar list. The most broken thing about Eldar is the Invisibility spell, and that's about Invisibility and not Eldar. Necron AB's are worse, Necron flyers are worse, Necron kill anything on a 6 guns, including tanks, are worse. The Aegis Quad gun single handedly made the Eldar (and every other) AV10 all around flyers useless, much less the Tau Interceptor options. And the quad gun is still optimized at full BS against skimmers like the serpent, so it's hardly a waste of points against skimmer armies.
on hammerheads vs wraithknights: wraithknights are monstrous creatures and this edition favours them immensely over vehicles. Sure they cost two times as much, but put out twice the firepower, can leap about the place, have t8 (8!!!) which means a multi melta that could one a hammerhead with ease needs to do 6 4+ wounds to put down a wraithknight. Plus the knight dominates in cc, something a tank can never do
pm713 wrote: Do explain how rending (not that great) and T4 3+ with 12" guns is OP.
I really don't see how a jetbike is OP.
It's really simple. Just follow the thought pattern of the "Eldar OP" crowd:
Jetbike is Eldar
Eldar is OP Jetbike is OP
Ignore ATSKNF, krak grenades, 24" bolters, squad options, rhinos, pods, just about anything the marines have that the jetbikes do not, and you'll see their point rather clearly.
This right here is where it is at.
First, assume that the shuriken rule = rending (it doesn't it doesn't touch AV11 no matter how many sixes get rolled). Also, assume Eldar players always roll 6's for wounding and that they always roll 6's for battle focus run moves.
SM bikes are troops with the biker captain. For 4 points a model more they get +1T, +1S, twinlinked 24" guns and can take 3 special guns on a 5 man squad, including grav, melta and plasma options. And a power weapon. Or fist. And a melta bomb and maybe a storm shield or three on the command version. Plus krak grenades, ATSKNF, chapter tactics, etc. Or and they can bring an attack bike (Vyper) free of fast restrictions. And combat squad.
Boo hoo, they can only move 24" instead of 48". The table I play on is 6x4 and generally we're starting 24" apart. 90% of the time there isn't going to be a difference between 24 and 10,000" movement. If you want to complain that jetbikes will fly all across the board to capture the objective, don't leave an objective unguarded and then assault them. In CC and shooting they die like a 3 man tactical marine squad in cover, without a chance at a power weapon or fist or meltabomb. If you can't kill 3 tacticals in close combat, or shooting, your list is fail. Meanwhile, over in Codex Space Marines 105 points gets you a drop pod and a five man squad with the option to take oodles of weapons. Toss in a melta gun, a melta bomb on the sarge, a combi melta and a DWML for the pod and you're sitting at 145 points for 5 T4 3+ bodies, 3 HP on AV 12, 2 melta shots in t1, and a S5 pie plate that will wound any footdar on a 2+.
870 points of SM = 12 OS units, 6 pie plates of dead footdar, 6 units firing melta+6 krak grenades on T1, plus 6 combi melta (or 12 combi plasma) shots on demand. Throw another 70 points a squad and you've got another 6 krak grenades, 18 units in the enemy DZ on T1 (presumably your sternguard/ironclads/TFC pods will drop in T2). You can even drop empty pods and spend 90 points more to pick up 6 plasma cannons or lascannons and camp the backfield. Sure you'll give up kill points in some games, but if your objection is Maelstrom objectives, that's not the issue, is it?
And wave serpents... The reason the Eldar only take Wave Serpents as transports is because the only dedicated transport option they have is Wave Serpents. Give them 35 point drop pod web way portals and they'll go away. The wave serpent is a droneless Devilfish that pays an extra 80 points for a randomized pair of autocannon equivalent that swaps AP4 for AP- and ignore cover. It's a rhino priced as if it had a triple lascannon predator strapped to the roof, but without the 48" range or the AP with half the hull points. Three serpents (pre troop "tax") is the same price as a pair of landraiders, and drop pod or two depending on how many goodies you bought for them.
If the serpent were truly OP, you'd never see jet bikes, wk, fd, or the seerstar (if that's still a thing) in an Eldar list. The most broken thing about Eldar is the Invisibility spell, and that's about Invisibility and not Eldar. Necron AB's are worse, Necron flyers are worse, Necron kill anything on a 6 guns, including tanks, are worse. The Aegis Quad gun single handedly made the Eldar (and every other) AV10 all around flyers useless, much less the Tau Interceptor options. And the quad gun is still optimized at full BS against skimmers like the serpent, so it's hardly a waste of points against skimmer armies.
In short, haters gonna hate.
Wow.
So in conclusion, Tournament Eldar builds everywhere aren't fielding the Wave Serpent for their power it's just that the 5 man DA squads (Who seldom disembark) only get the lacklustre option of one of the best main battle tanks in the game as a DT.
Judging by your post Eldar players must be beside themselves waiting for a new book to right the injustices delivered upon them by their 6th edition codex. The inequity between their options and 5 man tacs in Drop Pods is downright criminal.
I hope they can keep their chins up until they get their much deserved buffs in their 7th book.
pax_imperialis wrote: on hammerheads vs wraithknights: wraithknights are monstrous creatures and this edition favours them immensely over vehicles. Sure they cost two times as much, but put out twice the firepower, can leap about the place, have t8 (8!!!) which means a multi melta that could one a hammerhead with ease needs to do 6 4+ wounds to put down a wraithknight. Plus the knight dominates in cc, something a tank can never do
This edition favors vehicles over monstrous creatures.
The WK is just nothing like a Hammerhead - at all. It's kind of the worst comparison ever.
If you want vehicle to MC comparisons, you should try with IK / NDK.
So in conclusion, Tournament Eldar builds everywhere aren't fielding the Wave Serpent for their power it's just that the 5 man DA squads (Who seldom disembark) only get the lacklustre option of one of the best main battle tanks in the game as a DT.
Judging by your post Eldar players must be beside themselves waiting for a new book to right the injustices delivered upon them by their 6th edition codex. The inequity between their options and 5 man tacs in Drop Pods is downright criminal.
I hope they can keep their chins up until they get their much deserved buffs in their 7th book.
Bolg da Goff wrote: Are you serious? MCs are vastly superior to Vehicles in almost every conceivable way.
Comparing a SUPERHEAVY VEHICLE to a regular MC is completely inappropriate.
Walkers are a very strange brand of vehicle though, you can only hit their front armor, and for many targets, it's a lot harder to pierce AV12-13 (S6-7+) front than it is to wound T8 (S5+).
Other than that, yes vehicles are a lot squishier than MCs in close combat, they're not "vastly inferior" because of it.
But the fact remains, WS are never the core, the core has always been something else and will always be, the WS alone are no good.
If WS were *that* good, competitive players would just take 7-8 and be done with it. No more WK, no more deathstars, no more Warp Spiders, because the WS does it all.
Boneville wrote: well its obvious that that list was designed around the swooping hawks.
The ws are there because you need some anti-air somehow,right?
The original comment that is being referred to implied non-Eldar list tailored / adapted to handle Wave Serpents.
Every single list in all tournament that isn't comp'ed to restrict Wave Serpents. Many lists and units are invalided by the sole existence of Wave Serpents. Pure DE armies with Raiders and Venoms was unplayable in 6th, alone because of Wave Serpents. Land Speeders aren't even considered in tournament lists, even though they have point efficient dakka. The existence of Wave Serpents (and Tau to some degree) invalidates anything about the Land Speeder. Reaver Jetbikes are were good as long as they kept their distance from flamers with their good jinks, oh wait, Wave Serpents, nvm.
The entire meta is shaped around the Wave Serpents and claiming otherwise is absurd.
I think this conversation should be split. Let's leave this thread to are/aren't Wave Serpents OP, and I'll start a new thread to discuss the rest of the 'Dex under the assumption that the Serpent is handled.
Is the wave serpent worth more than its points?
The answer is a resounding 'yes.'
If they're worth more than their points, then they're OP. The question is, by how much?
MWHistorian wrote: Is the wave serpent worth more than its points?
The answer is a resounding 'yes.'
If they're worth more than their points, then they're OP. The question is, by how much?
I'll disagree, unless you want to claim the 2 nightspinners he also had were OP too, in which case I'll just laugh.
I do appreciate the "by how much" points question though.
A Devil fish is the closest DT equivalent (12/11/10). It is 80 points, minus drone cost ~56 points - 76 with move through cover and +1 cover. The Serpent gets +1BS, +1 side AV and Fast for 145 (base, holofields, move through cover). The Fish comes with an 18" 4 shot S5 gun stock, the serpent a 2 shot S4 12" one. A 69 point delta.
The DF can take a couple of seeker missles if it wants and the SMS which is arguably a lot better than the shuricannon. The drones can also screen the DF vs an assault and provide some bubble wrap after T1, an option the Serpent doesn't get. The fish can do it's thing as mobile terrain while the 30" gun troops shoot into the Eldar DZ from inside the Tau DZ. The Eldar have 12" guns, 18" on the 13 point T3 4+ guys.
The Serpent gets the shield.
So the question is, how much is the shield worth on an AV 12/12/10 vehicle?
While shooting, it's about as good as a pair of autocannons. ~4 S7 shots, but with ignore cover instead of any AP. How much would you pay for an autocannon on a rhino? Let's start at 30 points for a pair.
That leaves the defensive ability priced at 39 points and the use of those 2 autocannons. Lets take half the AC cost since we'll assume it fires half the time and shields half the time. That means the shield downgrading pens to glances is costing 54 points...
But wait, what about the +1 BS, +1 side AV and Fast? Let's call those a generous ten points a piece. The ability to downgrade a pen to a glance (on a 2+, not always) is costing the Eldar player at least 24 points. Would you buy that for a devil fish? I wouldn't. Not on a drop pod or rhino either, nor a razor back. Because you still lose the damn hull point and get glanced to death. I'll get more use out of 2 rhinos and 2 pods than you will out of serpent. You'll get an advantage in pure kill point games, but I'll rock everything else and if your serpent is near enough to an objective to OS it, my krak grenades will greet that AV10 rear.
Eldar player here, the Wave Serpent is definately OP.
60" twin-linked d6+1 s7 ignore cover, pinning is just over the top good.
If every non-eldar player is complaining you have to ask yourself if there might be something to it...
It would have been semi-allright as a restricted 3 in a heavy support or FA slot, but the ability to take upto 6 makes it OP and unfun.
It would have been semi-allright if it wasn't ignoring cover.
It would have been semi-allright if it's range would have been 24" or less.
I disagree with MWHistorian's reasoning, but I also disagree with RAWRAIrobblerobble's counter-argument. In theory, it that might seem like a sound analysis, but it's viewing each upgrade in a vacuum. Whether or not the Wave Serpent is appropriately costed, I don't think it adequately shows how good it is.
For example, twin-linked as a rule is fine and dandy, but it's far more valuable on a Lascannon compared to, say, a Bolter. Also consider that as additional rules and upgrades get stacked together, their usefulness increases exponentially. You can see this in Proposed Rules all the time when people throw down their custom Chapter Masters with S5 T5 W5 A5 3++ EW and a S10 AP2 weapon. They'll insist "but I paid the points for the upgrades!!!" Maybe they even did, going through what all of those things were worth and then adding them up... it doesn't change that that character's rules basically guarantee that they'll roflstomp anything and never die - they're ridiculously reliable, and outside of their cost there's no real reason not to take them.
Obviously Wave Serpents aren't quite that bad, but it's the same sort of principle. Devilfish have an average speed, have mediocre firepower and aren't too difficult to put down, but can get their occupants to their destination if necessary (which it usually isn't - Tau generally like to hang back so having a transport isn't a priority for many Tau armies). Compare this to the Wave Serpent which is fast, has very good firepower, is difficult to put down and is actually necessary as transport. Adding points to the Wave Serpent isn't really necessary in my opinion, the primary problem is that it's just too versatile and reliable. Nerf either its firepower, speed or reliability and then readjust the points depending on the severity of the nerf and then the tank is fine. Right now though, it's conceptually at a point which is "too good" to be fair.
~4 S7 shots, but with ignore cover instead of any AP. How much would you pay for an autocannon on a rhino? Let's start at 30 points for a pair.
A pair of 60" , AC are 48" range, ignore cover pining weapons autocannons ,that can be turned in to a no pen shield and help against alfa strikes,
if you don't get first turn. for 30pts? a str 6 powerfist on t3 dude costs 25pts in my codex.
~4 S7 shots, but with ignore cover instead of any AP. How much would you pay for an autocannon on a rhino? Let's start at 30 points for a pair.
A pair of 60" , AC are 48" range, ignore cover pining weapons autocannons ,that can be turned in to a no pen shield and help against alfa strikes,
if you don't get first turn. for 30pts? a str 6 powerfist on t3 dude costs 25pts in my codex.
I'd buy it, would make some nice CSM rhino razorbacks.
Of course it would be Imperium only because CSM doesn't innovate or have epic old age technology.
~4 S7 shots, but with ignore cover instead of any AP. How much would you pay for an autocannon on a rhino? Let's start at 30 points for a pair.
A pair of 60" , AC are 48" range, ignore cover pining weapons autocannons ,that can be turned in to a no pen shield and help against alfa strikes,
if you don't get first turn. for 30pts? a str 6 powerfist on t3 dude costs 25pts in my codex.
I'd buy it, would make some nice CSM rhino razorbacks.
Of course it would be Imperium only because CSM doesn't innovate or have epic old age technology.
Of course you don't. You also throw away all your land raiders that isn't godhammer and all your devastators instantly drops their plasma cannons and picks up the mysterious auto cannon that they had a secret crush on since they were young loyalists!
Nivoglibina wrote: Eldar player here, the Wave Serpent is definately OP.
60" twin-linked d6+1 s7 ignore cover, pinning is just over the top good.
If every non-eldar player is complaining you have to ask yourself if there might be something to it...
It would have been semi-allright as a restricted 3 in a heavy support or FA slot, but the ability to take upto 6 makes it OP and unfun.
It would have been semi-allright if it wasn't ignoring cover.
It would have been semi-allright if it's range would have been 24" or less.
Saying that you're an Eldar player doesn't change anything you know.
60" twin-linked d6+1 s7 ignore cover, pinning
If you did indeed play Eldar, you would know that the twin-link happens at 34" maximum and is not automatic, especially when you had to jink, or are on AA duty, which is one of the reasons we even take Wave Serpents.
You would also know that the lack of AP makes that weapon relatively ineffective at anything but shooting soft armor (AV10-12) or MCs
Weazel wrote: Wave Serpents, Warp Spiders, Wraithknights. Avoid using those (at least in any spammy fashion) and you probably won't end up being TFG. Oh and a jetbike farseer/autarch with a mantle is a pain in the butt. 2++ rerollables are something that should not exist in this game.
it is rerollable 2+ COVER save, someone was cheating hard... all it takes is 3 legion of the damned meltas and what mantleseer?
I brought my standard Space wolves list (previous codex). Played for 2 years, always a good fight for any army, only tabled a couple times, and its always on turn 5+ if it happens. Eldar come out, Wraithknight, dark reapers, wave serpants everywhere, and warp spiders just for fun.
Tabled early turn 3. Unable to kill a single freaking thing.
To answer the OP original question... They just are, man.
Pyeatt wrote: I brought my standard Space wolves list (previous codex). Played for 2 years, always a good fight for any army, only tabled a couple times, and its always on turn 5+ if it happens. Eldar come out, Wraithknight, dark reapers, wave serpants everywhere, and warp spiders just for fun.
Tabled early turn 3. Unable to kill a single freaking thing.
Your opponent had a good codex, a competitive list (except the dark reapers which are just below threshold but possibly great AA).
You had a bad codex (arguably so, the previous SW was unplayable), an average list (I guess, from what you express).
And you were tabled early turn 3 by an army that's known to table or be tabled.
My advice:
1. Get the new SW, it's good.
2. Use allies, that's what the IoM is good at.
3. Write a real competitive list.
4. Try again.
If you had been playing a decent codex and a competitive list and had lost five times in a row, then maybe it would be time to scream "OP" - your experience doesn't really call for it though.
To answer the question: They are fragile specialist army, in a manner that they have wave serpents which cost 110ish points less than a LR and: lose 2 AV get: jink, semirending S6 guns, 4 TL shots that TL EVERY THING if they scorr ONLY one hit, AND a pinning 60inch ignores cover S7 D6+1, and if you choose not tho shoot the latter, all pens are glances on 2+ and they also have OS unlike the land raiders (apart from BT crudader squad with dedicated transport LRCs who can roll out 5 OS LRCs, which then get demolished by most other things, unlike the WS spam.)
Say 5 LRS WOULD WIN vs 8 serpents, but that is why you take say 4,5 of them and a wraithknight..
If you take spirit seer then you get fragile troops that are toughness 6 (plague marines, which with heldrake are only things keeping CSM dex from being utter poo, suddenly don't look so cool now)
Also jetbikes that are better marines with better stats
Balanced specialist glasshammer army indeed
<end sarcasm>
ALSO: i once watched a CSM VS Eldar game: CSM got tabled by turn 4 IIRC. Then the CSM PLAYER gets this idea to swap armies. The csm player wins eldar player once he got the eldar army (and no eldar player had no experience with csm and vice versa)
Pyeatt wrote: I brought my standard Space wolves list (previous codex). Played for 2 years, always a good fight for any army, only tabled a couple times, and its always on turn 5+ if it happens. Eldar come out, Wraithknight, dark reapers, wave serpants everywhere, and warp spiders just for fun.
Tabled early turn 3. Unable to kill a single freaking thing.
Your opponent had a good codex, a competitive list (except the dark reapers which are just below threshold but possibly great AA).
You had a bad codex (arguably so, the previous SW was unplayable), an average list (I guess, from what you express).
When one codex makes most other codexes bad, it's called overpowered.
koooaei wrote: You're right. Eldar are completely fine in tournament min-max cheese meta. But don't bring your average eldar list to regular games pls.
Average non-tournament Eldar lists are far from OP.
There is so much bad stuff in the codex I don't see how you could have problems with a true "average" list.
There is so much bad stuff in the codex I don't see how you could have problems with a true "average" list.
only those things are elite never taken , or they are bad , compering to other eldar units. I don't seem to see those milions of eldar armies runing banshees or vypers, play with no serpents and use night spiners as their only range support unit.
What actualy it looks like is this. dude doesnt have the cash or the stores supply of WS is limited, buys only 3 serpents , plays with 3 full units of warp siders and two units of war walkers instead.
So is answer is to spend the money to buy another codex, buy another army to use as allies and then maybe some other SW dudes to make it more competitive. (How much money?)
All that just for a chance to win against an average Eldar army. Totally not OP.
MWHistorian wrote: So is answer is to spend the money to buy another codex, buy another army to use as allies and then maybe some other SW dudes to make it more competitive. (How much money?)
All that just for a chance to win against an average Eldar army. Totally not OP.
Correction. All for the chance to win against an average tournament Eldar army.
koooaei wrote: When one codex makes most other codexes bad, it's called overpowered.
SW codex was bad against any army actually.
And Eldar codex was balanced against Necron, SM, Tau and Daemons at that time.
Well technically SM still sucked at the time until they got their update, but that's besides the point...
Also, just to be a devil's advocate, I actually managed to beat Eldar twice with my 6th ed Wolves, but that was mainly due to crazy luck and bad generalship on my opponent's part. The first time, it was his first game with the new Codex so he hadn't quite figured out Serpent Spam yet, and was more interested in jetbikes. It was a game of the Relic, but somehow I actually managed to get ahold of it and won by a single VP. I think he just kept making silly mistakes like letting me assault his bikes, but it was a pretty surprising win on my part.
The second game was a Kill Point mission, and by then he had figured out Serpent Spam. He was cheesing it up for 4 turns, annihilating me while I struggled to even get a single VP. However, he then made the idiotic mistake of assaulting my Wolf Priest plasma-star (WP with Stealth, Infiltrated, 2+ save, Plasma Pistol and Legendary Fighter I think, 10x Grey Hunters with 2 Plasma Guns and a TDA Wolf Guard with Combi-plasma) with his Farseer Jetbike squad, with a couple attached Warlocks. I ended up sweeping the squad an got 6 or 7 VPs in one blow and won in a come from behind shocker.
...but yeah, every game I've played vs Eldar, even with my other armies, has been brutal. My only chances have been through bad generalship on my opponents' part, and even then I struggle.
The problem is, discussing things like are-DAvengers-OP always comes back to 'but Serpent OP', so its hard to figure out what is and isn't op.
I was playing a footdar list the other day, and lost half my army to the top-of-1 alpha from my opponent (Ultramarines descendants). Things just kept going wrong for me, but when I finally got into assault on bottom of 2, some guy walks by and starts bitching about how I'm fielding 'Exarch Spam', and of course I was going to win, because my Banshees (only one left, after a tac squad shot it on t1) were OP, as they had battlefocus *and* shuriken pistols (everything else cept for my Rangers that had both had died).
I'm not about to stop taking the Banshees to casual games, because I know they're not broken. But between the Serpent and Banshees, there is a very wide spectrum, and I wish the Serpent would stop preempting any such conversation.
(Side note - our s6 powerfist dude is about to 50 pts, t3w1 no invuln. And not an IC.)
There is so much bad stuff in the codex I don't see how you could have problems with a true "average" list.
only those things are elite never taken , or they are bad , compering to other eldar units. I don't seem to see those milions of eldar armies runing banshees or vypers, play with no serpents and use night spiners as their only range support unit.
What actualy it looks like is this. dude doesnt have the cash or the stores supply of WS is limited, buys only 3 serpents , plays with 3 full units of warp siders and two units of war walkers instead.
Which means you are once more comparing a rather competitive list with a badly written list, and your problem has nothing to do with the codex or the army.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andilus Greatsword wrote: ...but yeah, every game I've played vs Eldar, even with my other armies, has been brutal. My only chances have been through bad generalship on my opponents' part, and even then I struggle.
Thanks for your honesty.
Will you please list your armies, so that everyone may realize that all of them were in a bad position for the bigger part of v6, not just against Eldar.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote: The problem is, discussing things like are-DAvengers-OP always comes back to 'but Serpent OP', so its hard to figure out what is and isn't op.
I was playing a footdar list the other day, and lost half my army to the top-of-1 alpha from my opponent (Ultramarines descendants). Things just kept going wrong for me, but when I finally got into assault on bottom of 2, some guy walks by and starts bitching about how I'm fielding 'Exarch Spam', and of course I was going to win, because my Banshees (only one left, after a tac squad shot it on t1) were OP, as they had battlefocus *and* shuriken pistols (everything else cept for my Rangers that had both had died).
I'm not about to stop taking the Banshees to casual games, because I know they're not broken. But between the Serpent and Banshees, there is a very wide spectrum, and I wish the Serpent would stop preempting any such conversation.
(Side note - our s6 powerfist dude is about to 50 pts, t3w1 no invuln. And not an IC.)
That's really the thing that I find the most shocking.
People don't even think, compare or read the codex, it's just Eldar OP.
They have no idea how many of our units are far worse than average units in an IoM codex, etc.
60" twin-linked d6+1 s7 ignore cover, pinning is just over the top good.
How are you twin linking it at 60"?
That mentality right there is why people hate it. They THINK it can do everything at once, but it can't. Every gun on that thing has a different range so you are wasting shots if you use the longest range. It does not fire 14 60" twin linked bright lances that ignore cover, no matter how many 6's you think the other guy can roll.
The twinlinked 60" argument gets trotted out every time. If it's 60" there's exactly 1 gun firing and its AP-. If the serpent has a scatter laser then it is all but useless against AV13 and utterly useless against AV14. My vindi's and preds don't expose side armour, so go ahead and ignore my obscured out of arc +1 cover save on AV13 front. If you want to hit rear armour, feel free to come into tactical objective holding krak grenade assault range. I'll trade my cheaper tank for your if you want to not shoot to do your 12+18" (not 30" in one go) move on your 7" long hull.
I expect a crystal target 1 shot matrix guy to pop up now - please include the price of that in every "Wah WSOP" thread you use in the future if you assume it has it here. :p
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ThatSwellFella wrote: To answer the question: They are fragile specialist army, in a manner that they have wave serpents which cost 110ish points less than a LR and: lose 2 AV get: jink, semirending S6 guns, 4 TL shots that TL EVERY THING if they scorr ONLY one hit, AND a pinning 60inch ignores cover S7 D6+1, and if you choose not tho shoot the latter, all pens are glances on 2+ and they also have OS unlike the land raiders (apart from BT crudader squad with dedicated transport LRCs who can roll out 5 OS LRCs, which then get demolished by most other things, unlike the WS spam.)
Say 5 LRS WOULD WIN vs 8 serpents, but that is why you take say 4,5 of them and a wraithknight..
If you take spirit seer then you get fragile troops that are toughness 6 (plague marines, which with heldrake are only things keeping CSM dex from being utter poo, suddenly don't look so cool now)
Also jetbikes that are better marines with better stats
Balanced specialist glasshammer army indeed
<end sarcasm>
ALSO: i once watched a CSM VS Eldar game: CSM got tabled by turn 4 IIRC. Then the CSM PLAYER gets this idea to swap armies. The csm player wins eldar player once he got the eldar army (and no eldar player had no experience with csm and vice versa)
If the typical serpent was 110 that would be OP. The SL/SC/HF/movethroughcover ones I face cost 165 or so, on top of the 110 points of 10 guardians, 1 lanceand T3 5+ or 65 points for 5 DA T3 4+
DA can take 5 landraider, move them in lockstep and have a 4++ invuln the whole time with the PFG. If you can't kill a single WK your list if F-ed and nothing else in the list you mentioned will touch them. Not your fault your book is PFG based, but don't pretend you don't have an option.
As for the army swap, why should bad list beat a good list, when both players are unfamiliar with it? If I face you with an unbound all banshee army, do you expect to beat me with your list? If I then beat you, does that mean banshees are OP too?
As for the army swap, why should bad list beat a good list, when both players are unfamiliar with it?
Because that demonstrates the point: It's the list. Not the general. If Good General with Bad List can beat Bad General with Good List, then the armies involved are not OP, as it comes down to player skill. If Bad General with Bad List loses to Bad General with Good List... it's the list, not the Generals, because the Generals are balanced.
I don't think you know what a strawman argument is.
As for the army swap, why should bad list beat a good list, when both players are unfamiliar with it?
Because that demonstrates the point: It's the list. Not the general. If Good General with Bad List can beat Bad General with Good List, then the armies involved are not OP, as it comes down to player skill. If Bad General with Bad List loses to Bad General with Good List... it's the list, not the Generals, because the Generals are balanced.
I don't think you know what a strawman argument is.
Ok, so I'll put you down for a "yes" on banshee's being OP. That or you don't know the difference between a list and a codex.
I will say that the wave serpent is much more forgiving of bad generalship and deployment, but that's something that a good general accounts for anyway. A bad general with forgiving units (side av 11+,*3+ armor, etc) is punished a lot less or deploying without cover or LoS consideration that a T3 5+ army doing the same. A genuinely good player will account for that though so it doesn't make the army OP anymore than a 3+ save does on troop units.
As for the army swap, why should bad list beat a good list, when both players are unfamiliar with it?
Because that demonstrates the point: It's the list. Not the general. If Good General with Bad List can beat Bad General with Good List, then the armies involved are not OP, as it comes down to player skill. If Bad General with Bad List loses to Bad General with Good List... it's the list, not the Generals, because the Generals are balanced.
I don't think you know what a strawman argument is.
Ok, so I'll put you down for a "yes" on banshee's being OP. That or you don't know the difference between a list and a codex.
I will say that the wave serpent is much more forgiving of bad generalship and deployment, but that's something that a good general accounts for anyway. A bad general with forgiving units (side av 11+,*3+ armor, etc) is punished a lot less or deploying without cover or LoS consideration that a T3 5+ army doing the same. A genuinely good player will account for that though so it doesn't make the army OP anymore than a 3+ save does on troop units.
Howling Banshees are horribly bad - having played with them at the weekend! - Wave Serpents are horribly OP - I will not use them and as we allow Falcons as DT in our games I use them.
Sadly they are the two extremes of the Spectrum that needed to be addressed - but there is zero interest from GW in doing this and whilst most people agree WS are broken, a few other people who are mostly fellow Eldar players I note, scream in pain when this is mentioned....................then complain that everyone else is whining about their fair and balanced units............despite the mass of evidence against this view.
bad general with forgiving units (side av 11+,*3+ armor, etc) is punished a lot less or deploying without cover or LoS consideration that a T3 5+ army doing the same
you mean a T3, 4+ army in AV 12 side armour right?
As for the army swap, why should bad list beat a good list, when both players are unfamiliar with it?
Because that demonstrates the point: It's the list. Not the general. If Good General with Bad List can beat Bad General with Good List, then the armies involved are not OP, as it comes down to player skill. If Bad General with Bad List loses to Bad General with Good List... it's the list, not the Generals, because the Generals are balanced.
I don't think you know what a strawman argument is.
Ok, so I'll put you down for a "yes" on banshee's being OP. That or you don't know the difference between a list and a codex.
I will say that the wave serpent is much more forgiving of bad generalship and deployment, but that's something that a good general accounts for anyway. A bad general with forgiving units (side av 11+,*3+ armor, etc) is punished a lot less or deploying without cover or LoS consideration that a T3 5+ army doing the same. A genuinely good player will account for that though so it doesn't make the army OP anymore than a 3+ save does on troop units.
Notice that they also pay quite a bit more for those 3+ armour saves compared to those T3 5+ units... in a way, you could say that having greater numbers is far more forgiving. Also, in cover versus AP3 weapons, a Marine is only slightly better off than a Guardian.
As for the army swap, why should bad list beat a good list, when both players are unfamiliar with it?
Because that demonstrates the point: It's the list. Not the general. If Good General with Bad List can beat Bad General with Good List, then the armies involved are not OP, as it comes down to player skill. If Bad General with Bad List loses to Bad General with Good List... it's the list, not the Generals, because the Generals are balanced.
I don't think you know what a strawman argument is.
Ok, so I'll put you down for a "yes" on banshee's being OP. That or you don't know the difference between a list and a codex.
I will say that the wave serpent is much more forgiving of bad generalship and deployment, but that's something that a good general accounts for anyway. A bad general with forgiving units (side av 11+,*3+ armor, etc) is punished a lot less or deploying without cover or LoS consideration that a T3 5+ army doing the same. A genuinely good player will account for that though so it doesn't make the army OP anymore than a 3+ save does on troop units.
Can't speak to Banshees specifically, as I don't play Eldar (and never see anyone fielding them these days), but the overall concept remains true.
If you cherry-pick the bad units out of a Codex, the units that no one outside of fluff-specific, campaign-centered lists (such as someone playing 40K the RPG Wargame) then, sure, it's easy to say "the Codex isn't OP!"... but you're ignoring all of the auto-include units in the rest of the Codex that make the Codex OP. If the units that are taken in the vast majority of TAC lists are the same units that show up in the top-contending Tournament lists... there's a problem with the Codex as a whole. It's been written for a certain style of play in mind (tournaments, specifically winning them), whereas other Codices have not.
While 1 bad apple can spoil a bunch, 1 good apple in a bushel of bad ones does not redeem the whole lot. Banshees being under-powered does not, in any way, make the rest of the Codex not-OP. Especially since, if they vanished out of the Codex tomorrow, no one would really care.
Weazel wrote: Wave Serpents, Warp Spiders, Wraithknights. Avoid using those (at least in any spammy fashion) and you probably won't end up being TFG. Oh and a jetbike farseer/autarch with a mantle is a pain in the butt. 2++ rerollables are something that should not exist in this game.
it is rerollable 2+ COVER save, someone was cheating hard... all it takes is 3 legion of the damned meltas and what mantleseer?
Yes, let me go grab all of that Ignores Cover that my Necrons have.
My biggest problem with Morgoth is he has no clue what balance is. He also apparently never played during 5th edition where everyone cried about space wolves being OP using that same codex he called bad.
I have enough Space Wolves (over 10000pts now) to field anything I want short of .. land raider spam I guess? If I have to buy a completely different army to compete, even with my wolverine dread and santa sleigh of doom... then there's something wrong with your army, now isn't there?
Morgoth: It doesn't matter how bad 1 or 2 particular units are, if no one takes them. That's my point earlier that flew over your head like a Necron croissant.
Morgoth: It doesn't matter how bad 1 or 2 particular units are, if no one takes them. That's my point earlier that flew over your head like a Necron croissant.
Pyeatt wrote: My biggest problem with Morgoth is he has no clue what balance is. He also apparently never played during 5th edition where everyone cried about space wolves being OP using that same codex he called bad.
I have enough Space Wolves (over 10000pts now) to field anything I want short of .. land raider spam I guess? If I have to buy a completely different army to compete, even with my wolverine dread and santa sleigh of doom... then there's something wrong with your army, now isn't there?
Morgoth: It doesn't matter how bad 1 or 2 particular units are, if no one takes them. That's my point earlier that flew over your head like a Necron croissant.
Remember that Morgorth ignores anyone and everyone who has a coherent argument against his massively unblanced world view just like his beloved Serpents ignore cover.
Pyeatt wrote: My biggest problem with Morgoth is he has no clue what balance is. He also apparently never played during 5th edition where everyone cried about space wolves being OP using that same codex he called bad.
I have enough Space Wolves (over 10000pts now) to field anything I want short of .. land raider spam I guess? If I have to buy a completely different army to compete, even with my wolverine dread and santa sleigh of doom... then there's something wrong with your army, now isn't there?
Morgoth: It doesn't matter how bad 1 or 2 particular units are, if no one takes them. That's my point earlier that flew over your head like a Necron croissant.
Morgoth doesn't have a clue on how the game is played. He thinks the Death Ray hits flyers. He somehow argues that his wave serpents should get jinks, even when his not eligible to declare them. He thought vehicles exploded on 5+ with AP2 weapons on 7th edition. He constantly talks about how bad his Wave Serpent is, because somehow, his mysterious friend has these long fangs that keeps blowing up his 1 Wave Serpent and if he Jinks, that Wave Serpent is useless and essentially a waste of points. So in Morgoth logic 1 Jinking Wave Serpent = All other Wave Serpents are also somehow useless and in conclussion, the Wave Serpent is balanced... I guess?
Pyeatt wrote: My biggest problem with Morgoth is he has no clue what balance is. He also apparently never played during 5th edition where everyone cried about space wolves being OP using that same codex he called bad.
I have enough Space Wolves (over 10000pts now) to field anything I want short of .. land raider spam I guess? If I have to buy a completely different army to compete, even with my wolverine dread and santa sleigh of doom... then there's something wrong with your army, now isn't there?
Morgoth: It doesn't matter how bad 1 or 2 particular units are, if no one takes them. That's my point earlier that flew over your head like a Necron croissant.
Morgoth doesn't have a clue on how the game is played. He thinks the Death Ray hits flyers. He somehow argues that his wave serpents should get jinks, even when his not eligible to declare them. He thought vehicles exploded on 5+ with AP2 weapons on 7th edition. He constantly talks about how bad his Wave Serpent is, because somehow, his mysterious friend has these long fangs that keeps blowing up his 1 Wave Serpent and if he Jinks, that Wave Serpent is useless and essentially a waste of points. So in Morgoth logic 1 Jinking Wave Serpent = All other Wave Serpents are also somehow useless and in conclussion, the Wave Serpent is balanced... I guess?
Omg guys, while on the Morgoth topic, I just saw a post in another thread (yes, this is relevant to what you just said) giving someone advice for a Necron list (Ghost Ark can apparently add on more warriors, so start with min squads and save points), and when people argued with him, he said you better go check the codex. Like, best night ever.
Pyeatt wrote: My biggest problem with Morgoth is he has no clue what balance is. He also apparently never played during 5th edition where everyone cried about space wolves being OP using that same codex he called bad.
I have enough Space Wolves (over 10000pts now) to field anything I want short of .. land raider spam I guess? If I have to buy a completely different army to compete, even with my wolverine dread and santa sleigh of doom... then there's something wrong with your army, now isn't there?
Morgoth: It doesn't matter how bad 1 or 2 particular units are, if no one takes them. That's my point earlier that flew over your head like a Necron croissant.
Morgoth doesn't have a clue on how the game is played. He thinks the Death Ray hits flyers. He somehow argues that his wave serpents should get jinks, even when his not eligible to declare them. He thought vehicles exploded on 5+ with AP2 weapons on 7th edition. He constantly talks about how bad his Wave Serpent is, because somehow, his mysterious friend has these long fangs that keeps blowing up his 1 Wave Serpent and if he Jinks, that Wave Serpent is useless and essentially a waste of points. So in Morgoth logic 1 Jinking Wave Serpent = All other Wave Serpents are also somehow useless and in conclussion, the Wave Serpent is balanced... I guess?
Omg guys, while on the Morgoth topic, I just saw a post in another thread (yes, this is relevant to what you just said) giving someone advice for a Necron list (Ghost Ark can apparently add on more warriors, so start with min squads and save points), and when people argued with him, he said you better go check the codex. Like, best night ever.
can we start a specific thread listing Morgorths errors - or is that against the forum rules He has set his system tp ignore several of us as it is.....
krodarklorr wrote: Omg guys, while on the Morgoth topic, I just saw a post in another thread (yes, this is relevant to what you just said) giving someone advice for a Necron list (Ghost Ark can apparently add on more warriors, so start with min squads and save points), and when people argued with him, he said you better go check the codex. Like, best night ever.
Apparently the guy who pointed it to me read it wrong, and I read it wrong afterwards.
My bad.
Pyeatt wrote: My biggest problem with Morgoth is he has no clue what balance is. He also apparently never played during 5th edition where everyone cried about space wolves being OP using that same codex he called bad.
I have enough Space Wolves (over 10000pts now) to field anything I want short of .. land raider spam I guess? If I have to buy a completely different army to compete, even with my wolverine dread and santa sleigh of doom... then there's something wrong with your army, now isn't there?
Morgoth: It doesn't matter how bad 1 or 2 particular units are, if no one takes them. That's my point earlier that flew over your head like a Necron croissant.
Morgoth doesn't have a clue on how the game is played. He thinks the Death Ray hits flyers. He somehow argues that his wave serpents should get jinks, even when his not eligible to declare them. He thought vehicles exploded on 5+ with AP2 weapons on 7th edition. He constantly talks about how bad his Wave Serpent is, because somehow, his mysterious friend has these long fangs that keeps blowing up his 1 Wave Serpent and if he Jinks, that Wave Serpent is useless and essentially a waste of points. So in Morgoth logic 1 Jinking Wave Serpent = All other Wave Serpents are also somehow useless and in conclussion, the Wave Serpent is balanced... I guess?
Omg guys, while on the Morgoth topic, I just saw a post in another thread (yes, this is relevant to what you just said) giving someone advice for a Necron list (Ghost Ark can apparently add on more warriors, so start with min squads and save points), and when people argued with him, he said you better go check the codex. Like, best night ever.
can we start a specific thread listing Morgorths errors - or is that against the forum rules He has set his system tp ignore several of us as it is.....
I've felt as though I'll get punished for talking about him as I have, but starting a whole thread would be bad. And if he can't talk to us, good riddance imo.
krodarklorr wrote: Omg guys, while on the Morgoth topic, I just saw a post in another thread (yes, this is relevant to what you just said) giving someone advice for a Necron list (Ghost Ark can apparently add on more warriors, so start with min squads and save points), and when people argued with him, he said you better go check the codex. Like, best night ever.
Not my fault Necron players don't even read the Necron FAQ.
How can you even pretend your opinion on the rules is worth a cent if you don't even read them.
Dude, it's in the codex. It doesn't work like that. I've read the codex through and through numerous times, heck I don't even look at it when I play anymore. The FAQ just cleared up some wording issues and made sure it worked how it was intended to work. Which, was not by adding more to a unit beyond it's starting size.
There is so much bad stuff in the codex I don't see how you could have problems with a true "average" list.
only those things are elite never taken , or they are bad , compering to other eldar units. I don't seem to see those milions of eldar armies runing banshees or vypers, play with no serpents and use night spiners as their only range support unit.
What actualy it looks like is this. dude doesnt have the cash or the stores supply of WS is limited, buys only 3 serpents , plays with 3 full units of warp siders and two units of war walkers instead.
So your complaint is that power gamers were attracted to Eldar because Seerstar and Beaststar were godlike before ?
I'm sure it would be so much better if they were attracted to another army.
There is so much bad stuff in the codex I don't see how you could have problems with a true "average" list.
only those things are elite never taken , or they are bad , compering to other eldar units. I don't seem to see those milions of eldar armies runing banshees or vypers, play with no serpents and use night spiners as their only range support unit.
What actualy it looks like is this. dude doesnt have the cash or the stores supply of WS is limited, buys only 3 serpents , plays with 3 full units of warp siders and two units of war walkers instead.
So your complaint is that power gamers were attracted to Eldar because Seerstar and Beaststar were godlike before ?
I'm sure it would be so much better if they were attracted to another army.
Are those really, like legit, the only things you think make/made Eldar OP? I mean, in all seriousness here....
Pyeatt wrote: My biggest problem with Morgoth is he has no clue what balance is. He also apparently never played during 5th edition where everyone cried about space wolves being OP using that same codex he called bad.
I have enough Space Wolves (over 10000pts now) to field anything I want short of .. land raider spam I guess? If I have to buy a completely different army to compete, even with my wolverine dread and santa sleigh of doom... then there's something wrong with your army, now isn't there?
Morgoth: It doesn't matter how bad 1 or 2 particular units are, if no one takes them. That's my point earlier that flew over your head like a Necron croissant.
We're in v7 now you know. with a new codex. which lets you compete with your Santa Sleigh of Doom.
What are you complaining about again ?
When people say "Eldar OP" and "The Eldar codex is full of amazing units", it's a good time to remind them how bad half of the units in that "insanely good codex" are.
You can pretend it's just one or two units, you can pretend nobody plays them, it doesn't change the fact that this codex you like to call OP also has horrible choices.
Choices that make Flayed Ones look good.
When people say "Eldar OP" and "The Eldar codex is full of amazing units", it's a good time to remind them how bad half of the units in that "insanely good codex" are.
You can pretend it's just one or two units, you can pretend nobody plays them, it doesn't change the fact that this codex you like to call OP also has horrible choices.
Howling Banshees is the main one I've heard. Other than that, what else is there that's bad? Even if it's not "competitive", I'm sure you can take the non-competitive choices out of any other codex, and Eldar's would still be better. That's one of my main complaints about them. Most of your codex, is far from bad. There's a difference between bad and not competitive.
When people say "Eldar OP" and "The Eldar codex is full of amazing units", it's a good time to remind them how bad half of the units in that "insanely good codex" are.
You can pretend it's just one or two units, you can pretend nobody plays them, it doesn't change the fact that this codex you like to call OP also has horrible choices.
Howling Banshees is the main one I've heard. Other than that, what else is there that's bad? Even if it's not "competitive", I'm sure you can take the non-competitive choices out of any other codex, and Eldar's would still be better. That's one of my main complaints about them. Most of your codex, is far from bad. There's a difference between bad and not competitive.
Agreed - OUR Eldar codex has a great range of units with lots of interesting options and opportunities - which is a shame that it so often ends up being Cheese Serpent spam ;(
I fielded my recently purchased Serpent for the first time on my weekly Wednesday game and put Scorpions in it. My mate who plays Chaos wasn't looking forward to it coming in but he played two Hell Brutes with Cultist meat shield and that seemed to worked really well against it and the Lord I also fielded. Like I have seem some people mention in here Bladestorm was the main problem for him.
Before the game I was worried that the Eldar might be a little over powered but at the end of the game he had more models in play than I did but I took the points to win, just. He didn't seem to have too much trouble taking down my big stuff.
Franko wrote: I fielded my recently purchased Serpent for the first time on my weekly Wednesday game and put Scorpions in it. My mate who plays Chaos wasn't looking forward to it coming in but he played two Hell Brutes with Cultist meat shield and that seemed to worked really well against it and the Lord I also fielded. Like I have seem some people mention in here Bladestorm was the main problem for him.
Before the game I was worried that the Eldar might be a little over powered but at the end of the game he had more models in play than I did but I took the points to win, just. He didn't seem to have too much trouble taking down my big stuff.
I don't see how the meat shield of Cultists would have been an issue, especially if it's the formation where the Helbrute gets a 3+ cover save. You know, cover, that one mechanic WS don't give two craps about. I see that Helbrute living maybe one turn.
Franko wrote: I fielded my recently purchased Serpent for the first time on my weekly Wednesday game and put Scorpions in it. My mate who plays Chaos wasn't looking forward to it coming in but he played two Hell Brutes with Cultist meat shield and that seemed to worked really well against it and the Lord I also fielded. Like I have seem some people mention in here Bladestorm was the main problem for him.
Before the game I was worried that the Eldar might be a little over powered but at the end of the game he had more models in play than I did but I took the points to win, just. He didn't seem to have too much trouble taking down my big stuff.
Sounds like fun
Although usually the WS is transporting missile troops - So F Dragons, Dire Avengers and the like a the Scorpions can't assault out of it.....
As mentioned the Shield gun ignores cover so you can shoot past the cultists.
One WS (although its still too good) can often be handeled but multiples are to coin a phrase the hard counter to fun
I didn't deactivate the shield though as he had at least two anti-armour weapons in range and I took advantage of the 2+ glance ability while transporting my Scorpions to their target area. I will admit that at the time I didn't think about the ignore cover ability until after the game but even so I still think I'd have left the shield up, more for the safety of the chaps inside.
Franko wrote: I didn't deactivate the shield though as he had at least two anti-armour weapons in range and I took advantage of the 2+ glance ability while transporting my Scorpions to their target area. I will admit that at the time I didn't think about the ignore cover ability until after the game but even so I still think I'd have left the shield up, more for the safety of the chaps inside.
Interesting - did the Scorpions work as they could not assault - did you use them for objective capture?
I fielded a 10-man DA unit inside an EML Serpent without a Cannon. Used it to protect my DAs until late game, where they were able to really lock down the center (where the Relic still was). Using it as the flying FU to gunlines, as a transport not a gunship, it performed great, but didn't really feel OP.
Only shot the shield once, to remove something granting shrouding to just about everything. And the EML I think only did one wound all game. But it allowed me to keep my troops ready for action. It did die to a bunch of s8 ignores cover followed up by a 10" assault though. Won me the game.
Point being, Serpents can be reasonable. But look at most batreps and all you see tends to be Davu.
Bharring wrote: I fielded a 10-man DA unit inside an EML Serpent without a Cannon. Used it to protect my DAs until late game, where they were able to really lock down the center (where the Relic still was). Using it as the flying FU to gunlines, as a transport not a gunship, it performed great, but didn't really feel OP.
Only shot the shield once, to remove something granting shrouding to just about everything. And the EML I think only did one wound all game. But it allowed me to keep my troops ready for action. It did die to a bunch of s8 ignores cover followed up by a 10" assault though. Won me the game.
Point being, Serpents can be reasonable. But look at most batreps and all you see tends to be Davu.
Indeed, they can be reasonable. Depends on how many you're running and how you're using them though... and even then, they have the potential to get pretty crazy. As with many things though, they get exponentially better the more you take.
Franko wrote: I didn't deactivate the shield though as he had at least two anti-armour weapons in range and I took advantage of the 2+ glance ability while transporting my Scorpions to their target area. I will admit that at the time I didn't think about the ignore cover ability until after the game but even so I still think I'd have left the shield up, more for the safety of the chaps inside.
Interesting - did the Scorpions work as they could not assault - did you use them for objective capture?
Yeah, I unloaded them to grab the objective in the 5th turn to sneak the points ahead for the win. That objective just happened to be in his deployment zone too As it was a late start we both decided at the start of the game to finish at the end of the 5th without seeing if it would continue.
I will say that the wave serpent is much more forgiving of bad generalship and deployment, but that's something that a good general accounts for anyway. A bad general with forgiving units (side av 11+,*3+ armor, etc) is punished a lot less or deploying without cover or LoS consideration that a T3 5+ army doing the same. A genuinely good player will account for that though so it doesn't make the army OP anymore than a 3+ save does on troop units.
Notice that they also pay quite a bit more for those 3+ armour saves compared to those T3 5+ units... in a way, you could say that having greater numbers is far more forgiving. Also, in cover versus AP3 weapons, a Marine is only slightly better off than a Guardian.
A Guardian unit is 90 points without a weapon platform and will likely die to a 5 man 70 point bolter squad: 10 T3 5+ 12" guns vs 5 T4 3+ 24" AP5 guns. The space marines can choose to deploy out of cover when the enemy is AP poor giving them more options, but that is getting off topic.
The DAVU spam complaints are about 13 point T3 4+ guys with 18" guns. For 1 point less than a space marine they are:
-1T
-1S
-1Armor
-Chapter Tactics
- extended range guns like the LC/PC or even a flamer
Assault 2 18" ap5 vs 24" RF AP5 (assault weapons are not great on guys that don't actually want to assault, which 5 man S3T3 4+ guys do NOT want to do). Pseudo rending is nice, but I'd trade that and a point for the above, as would every T3 army out there.
~4 S7 shots, but with ignore cover instead of any AP. How much would you pay for an autocannon on a rhino? Let's start at 30 points for a pair.
A pair of 60" , AC are 48" range, ignore cover pining weapons autocannons ,that can be turned in to a no pen shield and help against alfa strikes,
if you don't get first turn. for 30pts? a str 6 powerfist on t3 dude costs 25pts in my codex.
That's a lot of words to not say how many point you think it's worth. Someone might think you were trying to dodge the question of how many points you think the shooting ability of the shield is worth. Also, if you are putting a powerfist on a T3 guy for 25 points, it's no wonder you complain about other armies being over powered. You probably think a shadow weaver is OP, much less my quad template S6 TFC shot.
krodarklorr wrote: Omg guys, while on the Morgoth topic, I just saw a post in another thread (yes, this is relevant to what you just said) giving someone advice for a Necron list (Ghost Ark can apparently add on more warriors, so start with min squads and save points), and when people argued with him, he said you better go check the codex. Like, best night ever.
Apparently the guy who pointed it to me read it wrong, and I read it wrong afterwards.
My bad.
Given the bashing Mogorth got even after he admitted a mistake on the Ghost Ark thing, it seems the hate might be the players not the unit.
It's OK to make a mistake. You don't have to be Canadian to apologize (but it helps!). Some people will consider every unit in the codex broken OP. For Emprah's sake, even the banshees! A few Grey Knight guys were trying to justify making Strike Squads cheaper since Banshees had all power weapons...
... And Krak grenades. And ATSKNF. Few people think that last one alone should only be 1pt (SM vs CSM). Seems like CSM is the better point of comparison, to me.
So if you let the Eldar player decide what you do, you might lose?
CSMs win if they can get into rapid fire range, if they can stay out of 18" (either using terrain or just about any heavy weapon), if they assault, or if they coordinate to ensure the first volley is strong enough to tip the scales via force concentration.
Eldar win only if you just let them duck in and out of your rapid-fire threat range. Do something about it
They might rend your armor a couple times, but they are only 4+. If they're that big a problem, take a Heavy Bolter even. Or cut off their retreat.
Regardless, you certainly get first salvo.
DAs can be scary used right, but that's a good thing. They shouldn't lose to CSM in *every* setup.
Bharring wrote: DAs can be scary used right, but that's a good thing. They shouldn't lose to CSM in *every* setup.
But if the Eldar can ever potentially win a match up, ever, then they are obviously OP, because Eldar. It's not like Chaos has AP4 S8 Hades autocannons mounted on walkers that can march up and smash face... Oh wait, they do. That means the Eldar player has fire dragons to melta those vehicles. Unless you have cultist bubble wrap in which case they naturally have guardian spam or night spinners with those fire dragons. Or Wraith scythes. What's that? Land raiders and bubble wrap cultists? The Eldar player obviously would have brought their Wraith Knight and bright lance war walker list that day...
Edit: Wow. I thought the facepalm would be a big enough indicator of sarcasm, but the hate here is strong.
My comment on the Autocannon was me trying to underscore Bahr's point that Dire Avengers shouldn't lose (or win) in EVERY matchup. Hell even banshee's can do OK as a counter charge unit...
My mocking was directed at the Schrodinger's lists people hate on, where the Eldar list morphs mid game into whatever is the optimal unit for that match up. Wah wha eldar Holofields and bright lances. Which the Nova winner had 0 in his list.
Chaos got hit hard by the nerf to the helldrake which was the main thing keeping them competitive at the end of 6th. The hell drake was scary with 360 torrent, but so long as you strictly stuck to LoS and angles (including vertical) it was at least manageable when limited to 3 due to reserves.
Bharring wrote: DAs can be scary used right, but that's a good thing. They shouldn't lose to CSM in *every* setup.
But if the Eldar can ever potentially win a match up, ever, then they are obviously OP, because Eldar. It's not like Chaos has AP4 S8 Hades autocannons mounted on walkers that can march up and smash face... Oh wait, they do. That means the Eldar player has fire dragons to melta those vehicles. Unless you have cultist bubble wrap in which case they naturally have guardian spam or night spinners with those fire dragons. Or Wraith scythes. What's that? Land raiders and bubble wrap cultists? The Eldar player obviously would have brought their Wraith Knight and bright lance war walker list that day...
March up and smash..Are you saying the WS3/A2/I3/S6 Forgefiends are actually going to do well in melee combat? That they are OP with their AV12/HP3 BS3 firing selves?
Also for bubble wrapping: They are Daemons, they already have a 5++, it doesn't help them as much as you think
Land raiders and bubble wrapping: So you are saying to simply keep them back and fire? Or are you going to desperately try to march 6" D6 every turn in a coherent formation while the land raiders payload settles down inside it for X turns because you can't speed forward since you need that list.
All I see Eldar take is Wave Serpents, Warwalkers, and Wraith Knights, it's all they really need, heck now they can take a WWP firedragon with pin perfect accuracy for melting said land raider as well.
Eldar Players saying Chaos is OP, you guys are deflecting so hard that your shield's cracked.
CSMs win if they can get into rapid fire range, if they can stay out of 18" (either using terrain or just about any heavy weapon), if they assault, or if they coordinate to ensure the first volley is strong enough to tip the scales via force concentration.
Eldar win only if you just let them duck in and out of your rapid-fire threat range. Do something about it
They might rend your armor a couple times, but they are only 4+. If they're that big a problem, take a Heavy Bolter even. Or cut off their retreat.
Regardless, you certainly get first salvo.
How would you get the first salvo? Rhinos vs Wave Serpents = DA is getting the drop, and so how are they getting into rapid fire range if they stay out of 18"? Assaulting I'll give you is one of the main measures of dealing with DA, but I've had so many failed charges because of bad dice while the Fleet footed Eldar Kite around.
Also heavy bolters on CSM are rather a waste since they are mostly mid-field specialists. Though I stopped using my CSM after a while and stuck with gunline noise marines, or NM with Melee/Siren for general mid-field.
To clarify once again, Eldar are OP, and their dex pretty much outclasses the CSM dex easily.
That being said, I was trying to just compare DAs vs Marines. And chose CSMs, because they cost the same. The Serpent just hands the matchup to Eldar on its own. But on foot, there is no reason DAs should get first volley. Battlefocus helps for d6 (refillable), but with an 18:24 disadvantage, the Marines would have to basically give them first salvo.
As for the heavy bolter, any heavy weapon works for the point. Avengers are very focused in what they do. Punish them for their limitations.
As for getting into rapid fire range, force them to battle focus towards you to shoot, or corner them, or pull them through difficult terrain. Or even disengage and go for something else. If you try to run them down in the open, you're playing their game.
The thing to remember is that, in this matchup, you're not the super-elite troop. Each one of them is worth just as much as each one of you. I'm outnumbered by CSM all the time when I play Swordwind.
When it comes to killing footdar, t3 is huge. The boltgun is a scary deadly weapon to footdar.
. But on foot, there is no reason DAs should get first volley.
The problem is that assumes an unrealistic standard, there might be footslogging DA, but it's just odd to assume down in a vacuum to begin with.
As for the heavy bolter, any heavy weapon works for the point. Avengers are very focused in what they do. Punish them for their limitations.
If one could tailor midmatch yes, but the problem is your lists (assuming TAC to begin with) will be decided before one enters the field, and your CSM most likely won't be toting one singular heavy weapon, it would be an ineffective waste of points with 10+ units to do so.
As for getting into rapid fire range, force them to battle focus towards you to shoot, or corner them, or pull them through difficult terrain. Or even disengage and go for something else. If you try to run them down in the open, you're playing their game.
The first has been good, cornering them/difficult is far more difficult with their fleet, they'll run through DT better then you do, and disengaging is not always an answer
When it comes to killing footdar, t3 is huge. The boltgun is a scary deadly weapon to footdar.
Never played footdar (Eldar players have usually been WAAC around my area), but if boltguns scare footdar I'm pretty sure every single thing would considering every army in the game packs good shooting equivalents to that.
DA could probably be a few points less, but then one has to remember that no codex is a vacuum and they still have excellent psyker support with their abilities and other elements of the army.
The 2nd of course. Some people conflate it otherwise though, hence why we get all these people saying "why won't anyone play against my Eldar, I only have 2 Wave Serpents!"
For the record, the top 2 armies at a tournament I was at on the weekend were Eldar Serpent Spam lists, and they won all 4 of their games, each (and 7/8 of those were by a margin of 4VP or more).
all it takes is 3 legion of the damned meltas and what mantleseer?
