avedominusnox wrote: What happens in this case? I mean you target the unit? Or you can't? Since The Lord has LD and the chariot doesn't. I am concussed.
As a witchfire, it's treated as a shooting attack, so the necron player will most likely choose to make it go on the chariot, which, as a vehicle, is not affected.
So due to skriek being a witchfire the controller chooses chariot over rider, then chariot has no LD and does not take wounds so it is something like illegal target and resolves to nothing?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok understood. Thanks for the answers. Btw does the ability of te chariot to hit with the lords attacks overides even invisibility? As I recall it say that it hits on 3s or 4s.
Furthermore, any characteristics modifiers that affect a Chariot model apply to both rider and Chariot.
wounds is a characteristic
as psychic shriek does wounds the necron player can nominate the attack hits the chariot, but it would still uses the riders LD
For the purposes of characteristics tests, always use the rider’s profile.
or possibly LD 0 since the chariot has no LD
psychic shriek then modifies the targets wounds, although the chariot does not have wounds the rider does and things that modify any characteristic affect both regardless of who you allocate it to.
And yes wounds is a characteristic
so yes, psychic shriek hits the rider regardless of what the necron player decides to do with nominating where the shot goes.
To say that shriek works because it modifies the wounds characteristic means that anything that causes wounds would apply to both the vehicle AND the rider. So shooting and causing a glancing hit would also cause a wound to the rider. Psychic shriek does not modify the wounds characteristic, taking wounds modifies the wounds characteristic.
Psychic shriek is also not a characteristic test. It does not say to take a test of any kind, and there is no pass or fail. It is merely comparing the sum of 3 dice to a leadership characteristic. This is evidenced by the fact that you CANNOT take a characteristic test using the "leadership" characteristic (page 13 under characteristic tests). Those are called leadership tests, and Leadership tests are taken on 2D6, not 3. In order for Psychic shriek to qualify as a leadership test the wording would have to be "target takes a leadership tests on 3D6".
Glancing isn't a characteristic so that makes no sense.
and reducing wounds is modifying the value.
and yes anything that causes wounds by the raw for the vehicle applies to both the vehicle and the rider, but in most cases this has no effect, because you don't cause wounds when firing a weapon that has a strength value versus vehicle armor, and glancing hit on the vehicle doesn't translate to anything that modifies a characteristic.
the end result is allocating the psychic shriek to the vehicle still removes wounds from the rider.
its also worth noting the "hit pool" that a player is allowed to allocate for chariots hits that have "different strengths, AP values, or special rules that affect saving throws or wounds they inflict."
psychic shriek doesn't have any special rules as defined by the special rules section, and does not have an AP or strength value. As such it wouldn't even be able to be allocated by the necron player as one of the forementioned pools.
further psychic shriek states if affects a unit, the target unit does have a LD value. Which is the LD of the rider of the chariot. Rolling 3d6 vs ld would generate a number of wounds the target unit would suffer .
Roll 3D6 and subtract the target’s Leadership – the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result.
suffering is a profile modifier. e.g. enfeeble which is a profile modifier "Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit suffers a -1 penalty to both Strength and Toughness"
wound is a characteristic
"Wounds (W) This characteristic tells us how much damage a creature can take before it dies (or is so badly hurt that.."
chariots and charateristic modifiers "any characteristics modifiers that affect a Chariot model apply to both rider and Chariot."
RAW you absolutely take wounds to the rider from psychic shriek.
blaktoof wrote: Glancing isn't a characteristic so that makes no sense.
and reducing wounds is modifying the value.
and yes anything that causes wounds by the raw for the vehicle applies to both the vehicle and the rider, but in most cases this has no effect, because you don't cause wounds when firing a weapon that has a strength value versus vehicle armor, and glancing hit on the vehicle doesn't translate to anything that modifies a characteristic.
the end result is allocating the psychic shriek to the vehicle still removes wounds from the rider.
its also worth noting the "hit pool" that a player is allowed to allocate for chariots hits that have "different strengths, AP values, or special rules that affect saving throws or wounds they inflict."
psychic shriek doesn't have any special rules as defined by the special rules section, and does not have an AP or strength value. As such it wouldn't even be able to be allocated by the necron player as one of the forementioned pools.
further psychic shriek states if affects a unit, the target unit does have a LD value. Which is the LD of the rider of the chariot. Rolling 3d6 vs ld would generate a number of wounds the target unit would suffer .
Roll 3D6 and subtract the target’s Leadership – the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result.
suffering is a profile modifier. e.g. enfeeble which is a profile modifier "Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit suffers a -1 penalty to both Strength and Toughness"
wound is a characteristic
"Wounds (W) This characteristic tells us how much damage a creature can take before it dies (or is so badly hurt that.."
chariots and charateristic modifiers "any characteristics modifiers that affect a Chariot model apply to both rider and Chariot."
RAW you absolutely take wounds to the rider from psychic shriek.
Uh no. Suffering wounds is not modifying a model's wound characteristic. Read psychic shriek. It does not modify wounds characteristic.
Psychic shriek is a witchfire attack which resolves a shooting attack. Per BRB the chariot player merely assigns that shooting attack to the chariot profile and the effect is effectively nullified. The end result is what would happen if you tried to psychic shriek a rhino. It's perfectly legal to psychic shriek a rhino and the shriek would effectively do nothing.
I see you failed to read most of what was written, well done!
allow me to retort in the same manner.
Uhh no. Suffering is modifying, and wounds is a characteristic.
The difference between enfeeble and psychic shriek is which characteristics they modify, and one calls out the modification only lasts as long as the power is in effect.
the chariot player assigns the attack to the chariot and RAW it affects both the chariot and rider as it is a characteristic modifier.
the comment on the rhino has 0 bearing on this topic as the rhino has no LD value in its unit of rhino, unlike the CCB which does have an LD value in its unit-the rider, and the rhino is not a chariot.
blaktoof wrote: I see you failed to read most of what was written, well done!
allow me to retort in the same manner.
Uhh no. Suffering is modifying, and wounds is a characteristic.
The difference between enfeeble and psychic shriek is which characteristics they modify, and one calls out the modification only lasts as long as the power is in effect.
the chariot player assigns the attack to the chariot and RAW it affects both the chariot and rider as it is a characteristic modifier.
the comment on the rhino has 0 bearing on this topic as the rhino has no LD value in its unit of rhino, unlike the CCB which does have an LD value in its unit-the rider, and the rhino is not a chariot.
Show in the rules where suffer means explicitly modify this characteristic. Otherwise you are making stuff up.
show in the rules where it explicitly states the necron player can allocate psychic shriek on chariots, and do nothing to the rider part of the unt or you are making stuff up despite it not having a str/ap value which is required for creating pools to allocate by the RAW.
avedominusnox wrote: So due to skriek being a witchfire the controller chooses chariot over rider, then chariot has no LD and does not take wounds so it is something like illegal target and resolves to nothing?
show in the rules where it explicitly states the necron player can allocate psychic shriek on chariots, and do nothing to the rider part of the unt or you are making stuff up despite it not having a str/ap value which is required for creating pools to allocate by the RAW.
Spoiler:
SHOOTING AT CHARIOTS
When shooting at a Chariot unit, total up the number of successful hits that have been caused. Keep the dice that have scored hits and create a ‘pool’, where each dice represents a hit. If there are hits with different Strengths, AP values or special rules that affect saving throws or any Wounds they inflict, split them into several pools of hits. All hits with exactly the same Strength, AP value and special rules must go into the same pool. If all the hits are the same, there will be only one hit pool.
The player controlling the Chariot unit then allocates each hit pool either to the rider or the Chariot of the closest model in the unit. If several pools of hits need to be allocated, the player making the attacks must decide in which order they are resolved. All hits from a single pool must be allocated and resolved before moving on to the next pool of hits. Hit pools from Blast and Template weapons are always resolved against the Chariot. If the Chariot model is hit by a Precision Shot, that hit is allocated by the firer, not the owning player. When resolving successful hits that have been assigned to a Chariot, work out which of its Armour Values to use as you would for any other vehicle, based on the position of the model compared to the model firing at it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For it to work as you want it, Psychic Shriek would have to read.
Spoiler:
Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power with a range of 18". Roll 3D6 and subtract the target’s Leadership – the target unit suffers a -X penalty to Wounds where X is equal to the result. Armour and cover saves cannot be taken against the modification to Wounds caused by Psychic Shriek.
But it doesn't read that way and you are just confusing yourself.
you are absolutely incorrect and presenting falsehoods to support it.
suffer is a modifier
wounds is a characteristic
suffer is used throughout the rulebook to discuss the reduction of a characteristic from other psychic powers, e.g. enfeeble, to areas where models lose wounds "model suffers a wound, reduce its wounds from 1 to 0 and remove as casualty"
Never claimed that glancing was a characteristic. Glancing takes a hull point, and Hull Points is a characteristic.
The "hit pool" you're referring to is to segregate hits of different types. the "hit" from psychic shriek's rolling to hit step would be in a pool of it's own. But how many hits that is is impossible to determine because as a shooting attack it has no weapon profile, but that debate is covered in several other threads. But the "hit(s)" caused by psychic shriek would indeed be in a pool of their own with a strength of "-" and an AP of "-".
The controller of the chariot then allocates that hit to the chariot rather than the rider. Psychic shriek then resolves and rolls against the leadership (of which there is none) and cannot be resolved. The rule that requires the highest leadership to be used is for leadership tests, which this is not because it is taken on 3 dice, and the firer is rolling the dice, not the target.
The rule for "Models with multiple profiles" on page 13 that says models with more than one value for the same characteristic always use the higher value for characteristic tests also does not apply here because again, psychic shriek is NOT a characteristic test as defined in the rules.
the rule on page 86 that says that you always use the rider's profile for characteristic tests ALSO doesn't apply here because psychic shriek is not a characteristic test.
The fact that psychic Shriek is NOT a leadership test is what prevents it from affecting chariots, because it cannot be resolved against targets with no leadership value. Since psychic shriek must roll to hit (even though how to properly roll to hit for psychic shriek is not defined in the rulebook), that hit can be allocated to the vehicle profile, which has no leadership value.
blaktoof wrote: you are absolutely incorrect and presenting falsehoods to support it.
suffer is a modifier
wounds is a characteristic
suffer is used throughout the rulebook to discuss the reduction of a characteristic from other psychic powers, e.g. enfeeble, to areas where models lose wounds "model suffers a wound, reduce its wounds from 1 to 0 and remove as casualty"
You are wildly confused about what "suffer" means here. It is not signaling by itself that the characteristic is modified. This is all basic semantics.
Spoiler:
5-6 - You! You’re a Traitor! Paranoia sets in and the panicked warriors
lash out at their commanders. Randomly select one character in the target unit. That model suffers a single Strength 3 hit for every other model in the target unit.
In the above example obviously "suffers" is not carrying with it a process to modify a characteristic. Your level of confusion leads me to ask, is English your native language?
Guys, deep breath. Enough with the personal attacks. Stick to debating the rules. Whether or not "Suffer"ing is a modifying process or not is irrelevant here. Before we even get to that step we need to determine how many wounds are "suffered" against a target with no leadership value. Since that is impossible, the target cannot "suffer" ANY wounds unless the chariot's controller allows the hit(s) to be resolved against the rider.
Bojazz wrote: Guys, deep breath. Enough with the personal attacks. Stick to debating the rules.
I apologize for my bluntness. The argument is breaking down to a point where blaktoof is attributing wildly more meaning to "suffers" than is in the semantics of the sentence itself, which should be obvious to a native speaker. Characteristic modification is carried by such phrases as "-1 penalty to" but not "suffers"
Bojazz wrote: Guys, deep breath. Enough with the personal attacks. Stick to debating the rules. Whether or not "Suffer"ing is a modifying process or not is irrelevant here. Before we even get to that step we need to determine how many wounds are "suffered" against a target with no leadership value. Since that is impossible, the target cannot "suffer" ANY wounds unless the chariot's controller allows the hit(s) to be resolved against the rider.
Actually, the target does have a Ld value since the target is the unit, a single model with a dual profile. It's actually more a question of which value do you use since it is a mixed value unit. As pointed out, it's not a test. It's similar to the debate about mixed save units when using Grav weapons. We also don't know how it interacts with vehicles. In the Rhino's case, we don't know whether it doesn't affect it because it has no Ld value or because it can't suffer wounds. We're not given direction as to whether the non existent value translates to "0" or immunity. The end result for the Rhino is the same, so no reason for debate. Not so for the Chariot.
The rule for "Models with multiple profiles" on page 13 that says models with more than one value for the same characteristic always use the higher value for characteristic tests also does not apply here because again, psychic shriek is NOT a characteristic test as defined in the rules.
The controller of the chariot chooses which profile will be used. If he chooses the chariot, the profile has no leadership value. not 0, not "-", it has no leadership characteristic and so is immune.
Furthermore, any characteristics modifiers that affect a Chariot model apply to both rider and Chariot.
wounds is a characteristic
as psychic shriek does wounds the necron player can nominate the attack hits the chariot, but it would still uses the riders LD
For the purposes of characteristics tests, always use the rider’s profile.
or possibly LD 0 since the chariot has no LD
Shriek isn't a characteristic test. Vehicles have no LD (not LD 0, that's a different thing entirely).
So both options you've given are wrong using actual rules.
Actually, more Interesting Rule: When shooting at a Chariot unit, total up the number of successful hits that have been caused. - Shooting at Chariots
There is one large fault that everyone knows about Psychic Shriek: it does not have a Profile. The lack of a Profile and any other Rule required to work one out, it simply can not be Resolved as a Shooting attack. Given that it is part of a Rule-set that is Resolved like a Shooting attack, it is quite the large oversight to be ongoing for as long as it has been. As far as I am concerned, this is just another situation where it is painfully highlighted how poorly fitting into the Witchfire category this power is. We do not have permission to Allocate anything to begin with, for as the above indicates those are based on successful Hits... and this power has no To Hit dice to Roll!
So anything we discuss here will simply be 'How I would Play It' and nothing Rule as Written, unless you want to embrace all sorts of crazy.
The "hit pool" you're referring to is to segregate hits of different types. the "hit(s)" from psychic shriek's rolling to hit step would be in a pool of it's own. But how many hits that is is impossible to determine because as a shooting attack it has no weapon profile, but that debate is covered in several other threads.
]Since psychic shriek must roll to hit (even though how to properly roll to hit for psychic shriek is not defined in the rulebook), that hit can be allocated to the vehicle profile, which has no leadership value.
So anything we discuss here will simply be 'How I would Play It' and nothing Rule as Written, unless you want to embrace all sorts of crazy.
True enough. Something I was inelegantly alluding to.
And even if we could allocate a hit, that doesn't necessarily get us to, as Bojazz puts it, choosing a profile. Would it matter which model it hit in a unit of Space Marines with Veteran Sergeant? We don't have rules for rolling against mixed chacteristics of a unit when it is not a CharacteristicTest.
Hits aren't allocated to models, wounds are. There are two rules which are similar to that situation, but neither are invoked in that situation. option 1 - Use the target unit's highest leadership value as for leadership tests. option 2 - Use the target's most common leadership value as for rolling to wound vs mixed toughness during shooting.
Neither of these rules pertain to psychic shriek though, so you'd just have to decide which one to use with your opponent, or find a 3rd option both of you like.
Bojazz wrote: Hits aren't allocated to models, wounds are. There are two rules which are similar to that situation, but neither are invoked in that situation.
option 1 - Use the target unit's highest leadership value as for leadership tests.
option 2 - Use the target's most common leadership value as for rolling to wound vs mixed toughness during shooting.
Neither of these rules pertain to psychic shriek though, so you'd just have to decide which one to use with your opponent.
Bojazz wrote: Hits aren't allocated to models, wounds are. There are two rules which are similar to that situation, but neither are invoked in that situation.
option 1 - Use the target unit's highest leadership value as for leadership tests.
option 2 - Use the target's most common leadership value as for rolling to wound vs mixed toughness during shooting.
Neither of these rules pertain to psychic shriek though, so you'd just have to decide which one to use with your opponent.
Chariots can allocate hits.
for someone that claims there is no hit tied to the effect of psychic shriek that's kind of a pointless commment.
regardless wounds is a characteristic, and if hit by an effect that reduces wounds ( a characteristic modifier) then in the case of chariots the wounds apply to both the rider and chariot regardless of where the "hit" is allocated.
If at any point, a model’s Strength, Toughness or Wounds are reduced to 0, it is removed from play as a casualty.
Take Saves & Remove Casualties The model gets to make a saving throw, if it has one. If it fails, reduce that model’s Wounds by 1. If the model is reduced to 0 Wounds, remove it as a casualty.
taking wounds is a characterstic modifier, as that is the only way we have to change stats. Models only are removed as casualties from having their wounds characteristic reduced to 0, or when we are told they are removed as casualties from an effect.
psychic shriek causes wounds, wounds reduction is a characteristic modifier, so it will always affect the rider if the rider doesn't deny and there are wounds generated.
Furthermore, any characteristics modifiers that affect a Chariot model apply to both rider and Chariot.
if psychic shriek does 4 wounds, then the chariot takes 4 wounds (no effect since chariots have no wounds value) and the rider takes 4 wounds at the same time as it applies to both.
Rigeld - That post was in response to the post above about targeting units with mixed leaderships, not chariots. You are correct that chariots can indeed allocate hits, in which case it is not a mixed profile unit, it is just a single model with a single profile (of it's choice).
Blaktoof - Nobody is arguing that. Everybody agrees that if you can wound a chariot, you'll wound the rider. that hasn't been in question. We get it.
What IS in question is how to resolve psychic shriek. We have no way of determining HOW MANY WOUNDS Psychic Shriek deals against a target with no leadership value. That's what the posting has been about (besides yours) for the past 3/4 of the thread.
Bojazz wrote: Hits aren't allocated to models, wounds are. There are two rules which are similar to that situation, but neither are invoked in that situation.
option 1 - Use the target unit's highest leadership value as for leadership tests.
option 2 - Use the target's most common leadership value as for rolling to wound vs mixed toughness during shooting.
Neither of these rules pertain to psychic shriek though, so you'd just have to decide which one to use with your opponent.
Chariots can allocate hits.
for someone that claims there is no hit tied to the effect of psychic shriek that's kind of a pointless commment.
regardless wounds is a characteristic, and if hit by an effect that reduces wounds ( a characteristic modifier) then in the case of chariots the wounds apply to both the rider and chariot regardless of where the "hit" is allocated.
If at any point, a model’s Strength, Toughness or Wounds are reduced to 0, it is removed from play as a casualty.
Take Saves & Remove Casualties The model gets to make a saving throw, if it has one. If it fails, reduce that model’s Wounds by 1. If the model is reduced to 0 Wounds, remove it as a casualty.
taking wounds is a characterstic modifier, as that is the only way we have to change stats. Models only are removed as casualties from having their wounds characteristic reduced to 0, or when we are told they are removed as casualties from an effect.
psychic shriek causes wounds, wounds reduction is a characteristic modifier, so it will always affect the rider if the rider doesn't deny and there are wounds generated.
Furthermore, any characteristics modifiers that affect a Chariot model apply to both rider and Chariot.
if psychic shriek does 4 wounds, then the chariot takes 4 wounds (no effect since chariots have no wounds value) and the rider takes 4 wounds at the same time as it applies to both.
Taking wounds is not the same as reducing the wound characteristic and you are confusing the two. There is actually a significant difference. If a model has its wound characteristic reduced then USR like IWND will be unable to restore past what the wound characteristic has been reduced to.
There is nothing in the wording of psychic shriek to suggest that the wound characteristic itself is being reduced. Psychic shriek is merely just inflicting wounds. You don't have permission to modify the characteristic.
Spoiler:
Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power with a range of 18". Roll 3D6 and subtract the
target’s Leadership – the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result.
Armour and cover saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by Psychic Shriek.
You are incorrect, the only way to modify wounds is by modifying it.
it is a characterstic, taking a wound is modifying it thats why it states "when the model is reduced to 0 wounds, remove it as a casualty"
not something like "when a model has taken as many wounds as its profile has listed remove it as a casualty"
the characteristic is modified everytime the model suffers a wound.
further you should reread IWND as it states it gets to roll for having less than its starting number of wounds, not current wounds.
At the end of each of your turns, roll a D6 for each of your models with this special rule that has less than its starting number of Wounds or Hull Points, but has not been removed as a casualty or destroyed. On a roll of 5 +, that model regains a Wound, or Hull Point, lost earlier in the game.
also things like ID state that models suffering a wound with ID are reduced to 0 wounds and removed from play.
the only way to cause wounds it by modifying the wounds characteristic.
this is specifically called out in all areas where they discuss models suffering wounds, taking wounds, causing wounds and the wounds characteristic on the models profile being reduced to 0 which causes the model to be removed from play.
Blaktoof - Nobody is arguing that. Everybody agrees that if you can wound a chariot, you'll wound the rider. that hasn't been in question. We get it.
No. The general consensus in this thread is that the chariot player assigns wounds to the chariot profile and those wounds are effectively nullified when applied against a vehicle.
blaktoof wrote: You are incorrect, the only way to modify wounds is by modifying it.
it is a characterstic, taking a wound is modifying it thats why it states "when the model is reduced to 0 wounds, remove it as a casualty"
not something like "when a model has taken as many wounds as its profile has listed remove it as a casualty"
the characteristic is modified everytime the model suffers a wound.
further you should reread IWND as it states it gets to roll for having less than its starting number of wounds, not current wounds.
At the end of each of your turns, roll a D6 for each of your models with this special rule that has less than its starting number of Wounds or Hull Points, but has not been removed as a casualty or destroyed. On a roll of 5 +, that model regains a Wound, or Hull Point, lost earlier in the game.
also things like ID state that models suffering a wound with ID are reduced to 0 wounds and removed from play.
the only way to cause wounds it by modifying the wounds characteristic.
this is specifically called out in all areas where they discuss models suffering wounds, taking wounds, causing wounds and the wounds characteristic on the models profile being reduced to 0 which causes the model to be removed from play.
A characteristic modifier effectively changes the starting number for a characteristic while the modifier is in effect. The normal inflicting of wounds does not reduce the starting number.
Here's my take, and I'm sure I'll be shot down for it.
The Wounds characteristic denotes how many wounds a model can receive before being removed as a casualty. When a model receives an unsaved Wound, the characteristic does not actually change. A 3 Wound model would merely become a 3 Wound model that has received X number of Wounds. After taking one Wound, it would still be a 3 Wound model, but it could only take 2 more before being removed as a casualty.
Saldiven wrote: Here's my take, and I'm sure I'll be shot down for it.
The Wounds characteristic denotes how many wounds a model can receive before being removed as a casualty. When a model receives an unsaved Wound, the characteristic does not actually change. A 3 Wound model would merely become a 3 Wound model that has received X number of Wounds. After taking one Wound, it would still be a 3 Wound model, but it could only take 2 more before being removed as a casualty.
Bojazz wrote: Hits aren't allocated to models, wounds are. There are two rules which are similar to that situation, but neither are invoked in that situation.
option 1 - Use the target unit's highest leadership value as for leadership tests.
option 2 - Use the target's most common leadership value as for rolling to wound vs mixed toughness during shooting.
Neither of these rules pertain to psychic shriek though, so you'd just have to decide which one to use with your opponent.
Chariots can allocate hits.
for someone that claims there is no hit tied to the effect of psychic shriek that's kind of a pointless commment.
Considering the context it isn't. It's cute of you to ignore that, however.
regardless wounds is a characteristic, and if hit by an effect that reduces wounds ( a characteristic modifier) then in the case of chariots the wounds apply to both the rider and chariot regardless of where the "hit" is allocated.
Great! How many wounds?
taking wounds is a characterstic modifier, as that is the only way we have to change stats.
Well, no - we have the rule you quoted telling us how to.
if psychic shriek does 4 wounds, then the chariot takes 4 wounds (no effect since chariots have no wounds value) and the rider takes 4 wounds at the same time as it applies to both.
And how many wounds does Shriek generate against the chariot?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Saldiven wrote: Here's my take, and I'm sure I'll be shot down for it.
The Wounds characteristic denotes how many wounds a model can receive before being removed as a casualty. When a model receives an unsaved Wound, the characteristic does not actually change. A 3 Wound model would merely become a 3 Wound model that has received X number of Wounds. After taking one Wound, it would still be a 3 Wound model, but it could only take 2 more before being removed as a casualty.
The model gets to make a saving throw, if it has one. If it fails, reduce that model’s Wounds by 1.
Incorrect. You're told to reduce a model's Wounds, not mark it against the model or anything like that.
Blaktoof - Nobody is arguing that. Everybody agrees that if you can wound a chariot, you'll wound the rider. that hasn't been in question. We get it.
No. The general consensus in this thread is that the chariot player assigns wounds to the chariot profile and those wounds are effectively nullified when applied against a vehicle.
How does psychic shriek assign wounds to the chariot profile? It doesn't have a way of determining how many wounds it can inflict. It literally does not matter what "wounding" a chariot profile does or does not do, because it will NEVER get to that point.
Blaktoof - Nobody is arguing that. Everybody agrees that if you can wound a chariot, you'll wound the rider. that hasn't been in question. We get it.
No. The general consensus in this thread is that the chariot player assigns wounds to the chariot profile and those wounds are effectively nullified when applied against a vehicle.
How does psychic shriek assign wounds to the chariot profile? It doesn't have a way of determining how many wounds it can inflict. It literally does not matter what "wounding" a chariot profile does or does not do, because it will NEVER get to that point.
I guess we agree that there are multiple points of failure in blaktoof's argument.
Agreed with Regld2,
The Wound Characteristic clearly indicates that the Model is removed as a Casualty when the value is changed from 1 to 0, not when it has accumulated a number of Wounds equal to it's characteristic.
JinxDragon wrote: Agreed with Regld2,
The Wound Characteristic clearly indicates that the Model is removed as a Casualty when the value is changed from 1 to 0, not when it has accumulated a number of Wounds equal to it's characteristic.
Sure, but Wounds starting value hasn't changed. Characteristic modifiers change the starting value for the duration of the effect.
If a unit has to take a Leadership test and it includes models with different Leadership values, always use the highest Leadership from among them.
a CCB is a unit made up of 1 model with 2 profiles.
The unit, despite the two profiles has 1 leadership value.
Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power with a range of 18". Roll 3D6 and subtract the target’s Leadership – the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result. Armour and cover saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by Psychic Shriek.
target unit, not target model, not target profile
Does the target unit have a LD on its profile? yes, then you can roll to generate wounds.
If a unit has to take a Leadership test and it includes models with different Leadership values, always use the highest Leadership from among them.
a CCB is a unit made up of 1 model with 2 profiles.
The unit, despite the two profiles has 1 leadership value.
Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power with a range of 18". Roll 3D6 and subtract the target’s Leadership – the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result. Armour and cover saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by Psychic Shriek.
target unit, not target model, not target profile
Does the target unit have a LD on its profile? yes, then you can roll to generate wounds.
The rule you quoted to use the higher leadership is for leadership tests. Psychic shriek is not a leadership test, so that rule does not apply here. This has all been stated before.
Secondly the Chariot only uses one profile at a time when being shot at, as chosen by the controller of the chariot, not the firer. If the controller chooses the hit to be resolved against the chariot profile, then at that time it is a unit that consists of one model with one profile, with no leadership value.
Col_impact, Of course the 'starting' value is going to remain the same, for the same reason as a Rule stating to use the 'unmodified value' will always use the same number found on the profile regardless of which actions during the cause of the game have changed that Value. The problem was with the concept that Wounds are just another value which are then applied to the Model till it reaches the same value as the "Starting Wounds" because that has no Rule Support. The Rules have always required that we Reduce the Models Wounds, with no 'end of duration' listed to indicate when the Value is increased if that really is your concern, so why are we discussing something other then reducing Wounds?
So your saying the chariot unit does not have a LD value?
Psychic shriek is a hit that creates wounds to a target unit based on the targets LD.
If you were targeting a unit that had 9 models with ld 8 and 1 model with ld 9, ie 2 different profiles in 1 unit- you would hit and then roll 3d6-9 then the wounds are allocated.
if you hit a unit that has a profile with no LD and a profile with an LD of 10 you would generate 3d6-10 wounds to go to the target unit.
It doesn't create a hit on a model that does 3d6-ld wounds, it creates a hit on the target unit that does 3d6-targets LD value. Otherwise the way you are saying it works is it would generate 1 hit that does 3d6-ld wounds and could at most remove 1 model.
The target has a LD value, the profile of the rider. You use that to generate the wounds, then they can be applied to the target unit, as its a characteristic modifier per the RAW they apply to both the rider and chariot.
If you bothered reading the previous posts you'd see we talked about that as well. Since Psychic Shriek is not a leadership test, there is NO rule for how to handle targets with multiple leadership values. So you would have to decide with your opponent whether to use the highest leadership value like a leadership test, or the most common leadership value like rolling to wound vs units with multiple toughness.
And again, the chariot only uses ONE profile at a time, as chosen by the controller. It does not still have its alternate profile for the convenience of the shooter, it is JUST a vehicle with no leadership value. You have no permission to use the rider's profile as if it were another model in the same unit.
If a unit has to take a Leadership test and it includes models with different Leadership values, always use the highest Leadership from among them.
Objection, relevance. The quoted rule has to do with leadership tests and not Psychic powers. Perhaps you could stay on topic?
a CCB is a unit made up of 1 model with 2 profiles.
The unit, despite the two profiles has 1 leadership value.
Correct. And Psychic Shriek, as a witchfire, hits a unit.
Chariots have permission to allocate the hit to whatever profile they wish.
Cite permission to use the non-vehicle profile when the hit is allocated to the Chariot.
Does the target unit have a LD on its profile? yes, then you can roll to generate wounds.
Objection, assumption without evidence.
Please, cite a rule.
If a unit has to take a Leadership test and it includes models with different Leadership values, always use the highest Leadership from among them.
Objection, relevance. The quoted rule has to do with leadership tests and not Psychic powers. Perhaps you could stay on topic?
a CCB is a unit made up of 1 model with 2 profiles.
The unit, despite the two profiles has 1 leadership value.
Correct. And Psychic Shriek, as a witchfire, hits a unit.
Chariots have permission to allocate the hit to whatever profile they wish.
Cite permission to use the non-vehicle profile when the hit is allocated to the Chariot.
Does the target unit have a LD on its profile? yes, then you can roll to generate wounds.
Objection, assumption without evidence.
Please, cite a rule.
So your saying the chariot unit does not have a LD value?
Psychic shriek is a hit that creates wounds to a target unit based on the targets LD.
If you were targeting a unit that had 9 models with ld 8 and 1 model with ld 9, ie 2 different profiles in 1 unit- you would hit and then roll 3d6-9 then the wounds are allocated.
if you hit a unit that has a profile with no LD and a profile with an LD of 10 you would generate 3d6-10 wounds to go to the target unit.
It doesn't create a hit on a model that does 3d6-ld wounds, it creates a hit on the target unit that does 3d6-targets LD value. Otherwise the way you are saying it works is it would generate 1 hit that does 3d6-ld wounds and could at most remove 1 model.
The target has a LD value, the profile of the rider. You use that to generate the wounds, then they can be applied to the target unit, as its a characteristic modifier per the RAW they apply to both the rider and chariot.
blaktoof wrote: So your saying the chariot unit does not have a LD value?
No. I'm saying that the profile the hit is allocated to does not have a profile.
Psychic shriek is a hit that creates wounds to a target unit based on the targets LD.
And the target that you hit does not have a Leadership value.
If you were targeting a unit that had 9 models with ld 8 and 1 model with ld 9, ie 2 different profiles in 1 unit- you would hit and then roll 3d6-9 then the wounds are allocated.
Citation required - where is the rule supporting this assertion?
if you hit a unit that has a profile with no LD and a profile with an LD of 10 you would generate 3d6-10 wounds to go to the target unit.
Please back this up with some rules support. I know I have. You just keep repeating the same thing over and over.
It doesn't create a hit on a model that does 3d6-ld wounds, it creates a hit on the target unit that does 3d6-targets LD value. Otherwise the way you are saying it works is it would generate 1 hit that does 3d6-ld wounds and could at most remove 1 model.
That's incorrect and not what I'm saying at all. Generally, hits aren't allocated so hitting the target (with PS) just creates a wound pool. Specifically, the Chariot rules allow the hit to be allocated to a specific profile. You're attempting (indeed, asserting) that you are allowed to use the other profile. You've utterly failed to find a single rule to back up this assertion.
The target has a LD value, the profile of the rider. You use that to generate the wounds, then they can be applied to the target unit, as its a characteristic modifier per the RAW they apply to both the rider and chariot.
It's not a characteristic modifier - as proven. Copy/pasting your posts is both rude and detrimental to the discussion. Please update your post with relevant rules citations after you've read the post that prove you wrong.
the "hit" to the chariot causes the UNIT to suffer wounds equal to the 3D6 minus the "TARGET"'s Leadership. The TARGET does not have a leadership value. the TARGET is the chariot. a vehicle.
Does the unit have a leadership value for the purposes of resolving this hit? No. It consists of a single model using a profile with no leadership value.
Chariots can only allocate hits. Psychic shriek doesn't generate hits so that rule CAN NOT be used. Psychic Shriek effects the rider no matter what RaW. It really is that simple.
Psychic shriek is a witchfire power. Witchfires must roll to hit. Since it does not have a shooting profile, nobody knows HOW to roll to hit, so this must be decided with your opponent (most commonly, one dice is the decision).
This is all covered in a very lively debate elsewhere on YMDC, a simple search will find it.
The above debate is how to handle what happens after you've rolled to hit.
The target has a LD value, the profile of the rider. You use that to generate the wounds
Even if everything else you said is true, RAW doesn't indicate this is the case.
If you say use the highest, which is higher 10 or undefined ( potentially infinite)? The answer itself is undefined. So you can't use that as the deciding factor of which value to use. The only way to say use 10 is to go with a rule that says where no other values exist, use that which does. Clearly that is not a rule that exists within 40k. Really, from rolling to hit to complete resolution, PS is broken and must be decided locally how it's to be played.
I will state that we've gone with resolving it against the rider's leadership in my area, in large part because we don't think Chariots were meant to be immune to PS. But that truly is HIWPI.
No, because when the owning player chooses which profile is used, the target unit effectively does not have a leadership value.
FlingitNow wrote: Chariots can only allocate hits. Psychic shriek doesn't generate hits so that rule CAN NOT be used. Psychic Shriek effects the rider no matter what RaW. It really is that simple.
It's a witchfire power, therefore you have to roll to hit, therefore it's a hit.
I think Angelic hit the nail on the head there.Psychic Shriek is one of the most poorly worded parts of the game. So much confusion arises from it's improper wording that causes it to break the game whenever it is used. Any time anyone wants to use the power it must be a HIWPI scenario.
Bojazz wrote: Psychic shriek is a witchfire power. Witchfires must roll to hit. Since it does not have a shooting profile, nobody knows HOW to roll to hit, so this must be decided with your opponent (most commonly, one dice is the decision).
This is all covered in a very lively debate elsewhere on YMDC, a simple search will find it.
The above debate is how to handle what happens after you've rolled to hit.
OK lets assume you roll 1 dice to hit. If you miss there is no hit to allocate and the unit still takes 3d6-LD wounds. That is the issue yoy have the hit (and any proceeding rolls to wound or armour pen) has nothing to do with the effect.
I roll 3d6 minus the leadership of the unit. Does the unit have a leadership value? I take that number and apply that many wounds to the chariot unit. Does the Chariot unit have a wounds characteristic?
Bojazz wrote: Psychic shriek is a witchfire power. Witchfires must roll to hit. Since it does not have a shooting profile, nobody knows HOW to roll to hit, so this must be decided with your opponent (most commonly, one dice is the decision).
This is all covered in a very lively debate elsewhere on YMDC, a simple search will find it.
The above debate is how to handle what happens after you've rolled to hit.
OK lets assume you roll 1 dice to hit. If you miss there is no hit to allocate and the unit still takes 3d6-LD wounds. That is the issue yoy have the hit (and any proceeding rolls to wound or armour pen) has nothing to do with the effect.
I roll 3d6 minus the leadership of the unit. Does the unit have a leadership value? I take that number and apply that many wounds to the chariot unit. Does the Chariot unit have a wounds characteristic?
And that's one of the stronger arguments we had to playing it the way we do. Additionally, the Vehicle rules state that they never take Leadership Tests. Does this, or not having a Ld value, translate to immunity to Leadership based effects like PS?
I just love the hypocrisy of approach here. Well you have to roll to hit, it is unresolvable so we make up numbers to make it work. You have to roll 3d6-ld it is unresolvable so we ignore it and proceed with what is resolvable. You can't have it both ways if you want the roll to hit to be made then you have to resolve the effects agaibat the chariot using the no information supplied = 0 stat precedent or your lets set it to 1 precedent and the Chariot is immediately removed as you do 3d6-0 or 3d6-1 wounds check that the chariot doesn't have a wounds characteristic so set to 0 or 1 it dies.
OK lets assume you roll 1 dice to hit. If you miss there is no hit to allocate and the unit still takes 3d6-LD wounds.
This statement is assumption on your part. The broken parts of the PS power have been hashed out in numerous threads. There is nothing supporting this statement any more than there are for the counter argument, thus rendering the rest of your argument moot.
Bojazz wrote: Psychic shriek is a witchfire power. Witchfires must roll to hit. Since it does not have a shooting profile, nobody knows HOW to roll to hit, so this must be decided with your opponent (most commonly, one dice is the decision).
This is all covered in a very lively debate elsewhere on YMDC, a simple search will find it.
The above debate is how to handle what happens after you've rolled to hit.
OK lets assume you roll 1 dice to hit. If you miss there is no hit to allocate and the unit still takes 3d6-LD wounds. That is the issue yoy have the hit (and any proceeding rolls to wound or armour pen) has nothing to do with the effect.
I roll 3d6 minus the leadership of the unit. Does the unit have a leadership value? I take that number and apply that many wounds to the chariot unit. Does the Chariot unit have a wounds characteristic?
If you missed, you missed the shooting attack, and you don't proceed with the rest of the text, aka the effect of the psychic power.
And that's one of the stronger arguments we had to playing it the way we do. Additionally, the Vehicle rules state that they never take Leadership Tests. Does this, or not having a Ld value, translate to immunity to Leadership based effects like PS?
So broken.
No immunity to Ld based effects because you are not given any. In most cases any Ld effect will simply be unresolvable. So we have 2 choices ignore the unresolvable effect or make up random numbers to fix. Those that roll to hit for PS are clearly in the second camp...
And that's one of the stronger arguments we had to playing it the way we do. Additionally, the Vehicle rules state that they never take Leadership Tests. Does this, or not having a Ld value, translate to immunity to Leadership based effects like PS?
So broken.
No immunity to Ld based effects because you are not given any. In most cases any Ld effect will simply be unresolvable. So we have 2 choices ignore the unresolvable effect or make up random numbers to fix. Those that roll to hit for PS are clearly in the second camp...
Mavlun wrote: If you missed, you missed the shooting attack, and you don't proceed with the rest of the text, aka the effect of the psychic power.
I'm sure you have a rules quote to support that assertion... as Shriek doesn't have a profile and all.
Page 198 of the BRB: "Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power"
Page 27 of the BRB: "Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it has the Blast special rule, etc."
Mavlun wrote: If you missed, you missed the shooting attack, and you don't proceed with the rest of the text, aka the effect of the psychic power.
I'm sure you have a rules quote to support that assertion... as Shriek doesn't have a profile and all.
Page 198 of the BRB: "Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power"
Page 27 of the BRB: "Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it has the Blast special rule, etc."
I underlined the thing you need to support with actual rules.
If you missed, you missed the shooting attack, and you don't proceed with the rest of the text, aka the effect of the psychic power.
I'm going to want a rules support for that. Because the psychic phase rules disagree they say resolve the power according to its entry the entry says 3d6-ld wounds it doesn't say if you hit or per hit.
Mavlun wrote: If you missed, you missed the shooting attack, and you don't proceed with the rest of the text, aka the effect of the psychic power.
I'm sure you have a rules quote to support that assertion... as Shriek doesn't have a profile and all.
Page 198 of the BRB: "Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power"
Page 27 of the BRB: "Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it has the Blast special rule, etc."
I underlined the thing you need to support with actual rules.
You want me to support why a missed To Hit roll is a Miss?
If you missed, you missed the shooting attack, and you don't proceed with the rest of the text, aka the effect of the psychic power.
I'm going to want a rules support for that. Because the psychic phase rules disagree they say resolve the power according to its entry the entry says 3d6-ld wounds it doesn't say if you hit or per hit.
You roll for the psychic test, and if it's successful and not denied, you reslove it according to its entry. Its entry says Witchfire. You look at witchfire, and it says, roll To Hit. Problem solved.
And that's one of the stronger arguments we had to playing it the way we do. Additionally, the Vehicle rules state that they never take Leadership Tests. Does this, or not having a Ld value, translate to immunity to Leadership based effects like PS?
So broken.
No immunity to Ld based effects because you are not given any. In most cases any Ld effect will simply be unresolvable. So we have 2 choices ignore the unresolvable effect or make up random numbers to fix. Those that roll to hit for PS are clearly in the second camp...
The camp that follows the rules?
So the side that makes up rules is the side that is following the rules?
So you make up the 1 roll to hit. Thus when the hit resolved against the Chariot it immediately dies correct as we set the Chariots Ld &Wounds to 1 like we have done for rolls to hit. This is your interpretation correct?
And that's one of the stronger arguments we had to playing it the way we do. Additionally, the Vehicle rules state that they never take Leadership Tests. Does this, or not having a Ld value, translate to immunity to Leadership based effects like PS?
So broken.
No immunity to Ld based effects because you are not given any. In most cases any Ld effect will simply be unresolvable. So we have 2 choices ignore the unresolvable effect or make up random numbers to fix. Those that roll to hit for PS are clearly in the second camp...
The camp that follows the rules?
So the side that makes up rules is the side that is following the rules?
So you make up the 1 roll to hit. Thus when the hit resolved against the Chariot it immediately dies correct as we set the Chariots Ld &Wounds to 1 like we have done for rolls to hit. This is your interpretation correct?
No, my interpretation is that it's a witchfire power, therefore it requires a To Hit roll. That's the rule, per RAW.
The fact that PS is a dumb power that still hasn't been fixed, either by giving it a shooting profile, or by making it a beam, or whatever, is an entirely different discussion, as has been mentioned a million times before. Your insulting comment was that people that roll To Hit for PS are making things up, which is (in a way) true, but still better than completely ignoring a black on white rule, which is what you're doing.
Mavlun wrote: If you missed, you missed the shooting attack, and you don't proceed with the rest of the text, aka the effect of the psychic power.
I'm sure you have a rules quote to support that assertion... as Shriek doesn't have a profile and all.
Page 198 of the BRB: "Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power"
Page 27 of the BRB: "Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it has the Blast special rule, etc."
I underlined the thing you need to support with actual rules.
You want me to support why a missed To Hit roll is a Miss?
No, I want you to support why a Miss means you cannot resolve the power (as the Psychic rules allow).
You roll for the psychic test, and if it's successful and not denied, you reslove it according to its entry. Its entry says Witchfire. You look at witchfire, and it says, roll To Hit. Problem solved.
How is that "Problem solved"? What in that says if you don't hit you don't resolve the power? Does that mean on psychic powers that make multiple shots if you roll 1 miss the entire power is canceled?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
No, my interpretation is that it's a witchfire power, therefore it requires a To Hit roll. That's the rule, per RAW.
The fact that PS is a dumb power that still hasn't been fixed, either by giving it a shooting profile, or by making it a beam, or whatever, is an entirely different discussion, as has been mentioned a million times before. Your insulting comment was that people that roll To Hit for PSare making things up, which is (in a way) true, but still better than completely ignoring a black on white rule, which is what you're doing.
So how do you resolve the 3d6-ld wounds against the Chariot you HAVE as per the Psychic Shriek rules (just as you have to roll to hit). Given that you've stated when you have an unresolvable situation you make up numbers to resolve it. What numbers do you make up? If they are different to the 1 you made up for PS rolls to hit why?
Mavlun wrote: If you missed, you missed the shooting attack, and you don't proceed with the rest of the text, aka the effect of the psychic power.
I'm sure you have a rules quote to support that assertion... as Shriek doesn't have a profile and all.
Page 198 of the BRB: "Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power"
Page 27 of the BRB: "Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it has the Blast special rule, etc."
I underlined the thing you need to support with actual rules.
You want me to support why a missed To Hit roll is a Miss?
No, I want you to support why a Miss means you cannot resolve the power (as the Psychic rules allow).
The psychic rules then continue on the next couple of pages to go into detail on the TYPES of psychic powers, including witchfire, which you're completely ignoring.
You roll for the psychic test, and if it's successful and not denied, you reslove it according to its entry. Its entry says Witchfire. You look at witchfire, and it says, roll To Hit. Problem solved.
How is that "Problem solved"? What in that says if you don't hit you don't resolve the power? Does that mean on psychic powers that make multiple shots if you roll 1 miss the entire power is canceled?
Because it's a shooting attack. While it doesn't have a profile, we do know that whenever you make a shooting attack with a weapon that -does- have a profile, any rolls that miss, have no effect. Anything past that point is HYWPI . Where we play, we acknowledge that there -should- be a roll to hit, since it's a witchfire, but without knowing how many dice, etc. we assume it hits, however, when shooting at a CCB, it has no effect, as it's placed on the profile with no Ld, and as we know from other weapons such as the Abyssal Staff or the Neural Shredder, that also wound based on the target's Ld, they don't affect vehicles.
Because it's a shooting attack. While it doesn't have a profile, we do know that whenever you make a shooting attack with a weapon that -does- have a profile, any rolls that miss, have no effect. Anything past that point is HYWPI . Where we play, we acknowledge that there -should- be a roll to hit, since it's a witchfire, but without knowing how many dice, etc. we assume it hits, however, when shooting at a CCB, it has no effect, as it's placed on the profile with no Ld, and as we know from other weapons such as the Abyssal Staff or the Neural Shredder, that also wound based on the target's Ld, they don't affect vehicles.
Sorry but what?
When a shooting attack fails to hit it doesn't roll to wound. That is all that doesn't happen along with of course any effect tied to a hit. Note how the 3d6-ld is not in any way shape or form linked to a hit.
Also note if you do hit with Psychic Shriek you must then roll to wound (or armour penetration) for each hit caused. What strength do you use for that?
So you then just add other weapon rules in when you feel like it? Neural Shredders don't work against vehicles because they say they don't. Note how PS has no such instructions.
So answer the questions. Given that the roll to hit is unresolvable and you approach that by making up the numbers to resolve it please answer the following;
1) What strength do you resolve the hit at?
2) If not 1 why is that different from the unresolvable roll to hit?
3) What Leadership do you use for the Chariot?
4) If not 1 why is that different from the unresolvable roll to hit?
5) What wounds do then use for the Chariot?
6) If not 1 why is that different from the unresolvable roll to hit?
If for any of the above questions you answer we do not resolve that effect then you concede that you don't roll to hit for PS as you can't choose which unresolvable effects you make up rules for and which you simply leave unresolved and move on for. That is just making entirely your own game up. So which is it?
Because it's a shooting attack. While it doesn't have a profile, we do know that whenever you make a shooting attack with a weapon that -does- have a profile, any rolls that miss, have no effect. Anything past that point is HYWPI . Where we play, we acknowledge that there -should- be a roll to hit, since it's a witchfire, but without knowing how many dice, etc. we assume it hits, however, when shooting at a CCB, it has no effect, as it's placed on the profile with no Ld, and as we know from other weapons such as the Abyssal Staff or the Neural Shredder, that also wound based on the target's Ld, they don't affect vehicles.
Sorry but what?
When a shooting attack fails to hit it doesn't roll to wound. That is all that doesn't happen along with of course any effect tied to a hit. Note how the 3d6-ld is not in any way shape or form linked to a hit.
Also note if you do hit with Psychic Shriek you must then roll to wound (or armour penetration) for each hit caused. What strength do you use for that?
So you then just add other weapon rules in when you feel like it? Neural Shredders don't work against vehicles because they say they don't. Note how PS has no such instructions.
So answer the questions. Given that the roll to hit is unresolvable and you approach that by making up the numbers to resolve it please answer the following;
1) What strength do you resolve the hit at?
2) If not 1 why is that different from the unresolvable roll to hit?
3) What Leadership do you use for the Chariot?
4) If not 1 why is that different from the unresolvable roll to hit?
5) What wounds do then use for the Chariot?
6) If not 1 why is that different from the unresolvable roll to hit?
If for any of the above questions you answer we do not resolve that effect then you concede that you don't roll to hit for PS as you can't choose which unresolvable effects you make up rules for and which you simply leave unresolved and move on for. That is just making entirely your own game up. So which is it?
I already said, where we play,we don't roll to hit, but assume it automatically hits. It has to, since it's a witchfire power. Therefore, the hit can be allocated by the owning player to the vehicle. Since the vehicle has no leadership value, nothing happens.
Ok I get what you're saying now. So the questions change:
1)Given that the roll to hit is unresolvable and you approach that by making up the numbers to give answer. How many times does PS hit?
2) What strength do you resolve the hit at?
3) If not the same as answer 1 why is that different from the unresolvable roll to hit?
4) What Leadership do you use for the Chariot?
5) If not the same as answer 1 why is that different from the unresolvable roll to hit?
6) What wounds do then use for the Chariot?
7) If not the same as answer 1 why is that different from the unresolvable roll to hit?
FlingitNow wrote: Ok I get what you're saying now. So the questions change:
1)Given that the roll to hit is unresolvable and you approach that by making up the numbers to give answer. How many times does PS hit?
2) What strength do you resolve the hit at?
3) If not the same as answer 1 why is that different from the unresolvable roll to hit?
4) What Leadership do you use for the Chariot?
5) If not the same as answer 1 why is that different from the unresolvable roll to hit?
6) What wounds do then use for the Chariot?
7) If not the same as answer 1 why is that different from the unresolvable roll to hit?
1. I am seriously worried about your reading comprehension. We don't make up numbers, since we assume it hits, therefore applying the effect written in the entry.
2. Psychic shriek doesn't have a S and AP profile, just special rules, so you apply the special rules.
4. It has no leadership value, therefore Psychic Shriek has no effect.
6. Since the CCB's profile is used, and it is a vehicle, no wounds are taken.
Questions 3, 5 and 7 are just regurgitations. I think I was clear enough a few posts ago, and I'm pretty sure it's clear to readers. The difference between you and I is that you're pretending like PS is not a WITCHFIRE power, and therefore, use it as a malediction, which is completely incorrect, and I acknowledge that it's an automatic hit. The issue will only ever be resolved when the power gets an FAQ (if ever).
Until then, your invisibility spamming death stars will have to rely on their other multitude of weapons to bring down CCBs as far as I am concerned.
FWIW no attack can automatically hit if it is required to roll to hit, of course if a specific rule specifically states otherwise then its otherwise but general rule is..
Note that the minimum roll needed To Hit is always at least 2. When rolling To Hit, there is no such thing as an automatic hit and a roll of a 1 always misses.
so playing it as an automatic hit although acceptable in some groups is completely wrong with the RAW.
Mavlun wrote: however, when shooting at a CCB, it has no effect, as it's placed on the profile with no Ld, and as we know from other weapons such as the Abyssal Staff or the Neural Shredder, that also wound based on the target's Ld, they don't affect vehicles.
Do we know that? Abyssal Staff specifically says it doesn't. Neural Shredder doesn't work that way anymore, but its new rules specifically say it doesn't. It's a statement that's conspicuously absent in PS.
We know, because the rules state as such, that a successful to-hit is needed before you can roll to-wound.
THat is it. You cannot say "a miss has no effect"
There is no to-wound roll with PS, so a miss has no effect. You instead, as per the rules for psychic powers, resolve the power according to its entry.
1. I am seriously worried about your reading comprehension. We don't make up numbers, since we assume it hits, therefore applying the effect written in the entry.
2. Psychic shriek doesn't have a S and AP profile, just special rules, so you apply the special rules.
4. It has no leadership value, therefore Psychic Shriek has no effect.
6. Since the CCB's profile is used, and it is a vehicle, no wounds are taken.
Questions 3, 5 and 7 are just regurgitations. I think I was clear enough a few posts ago, and I'm pretty sure it's clear to readers. The difference between you and I is that you're pretending like PS is not a WITCHFIRE power, and therefore, use it as a malediction, which is completely incorrect, and I acknowledge that it's an automatic hit. The issue will only ever be resolved when the power gets an FAQ (if ever).
Until then, your invisibility spamming death stars will have to rely on their other multitude of weapons to bring down CCBs as far as I am concerned.
Why won't you answer the question. In your interpretation how many times does Psychic shriek automatically hit?
You then claim as there is no profile that you don't do the to wound process. Why are you completely changing your approach from what you did when you encountered the same issue with the to hit process?
You are doing the same again and again for questions 4 & 6 which proves that your approach to unresolvable events due to lack of applicable profile is to ignore the event. Therefore why are you not doing this for the to hit process? This proves your interpretation is entirely inconsistent with itself and thus is hypocritical. Therefore using your method to deal with the to wound process and the other processes we see that PS generates no hits and thus the Chariot can not assign PS to anything.
Mavlun wrote: The psychic rules then continue on the next couple of pages to go into detail on the TYPES of psychic powers, including witchfire, which you're completely ignoring.
I'm actually ignoring nothing, but thanks for assuming that I don't debate honestly.
Because it's a shooting attack. While it doesn't have a profile, we do know that whenever you make a shooting attack with a weapon that -does- have a profile, any rolls that miss, have no effect. Anything past that point is HYWPI . Where we play, we acknowledge that there -should- be a roll to hit, since it's a witchfire, but without knowing how many dice, etc. we assume it hits, however, when shooting at a CCB, it has no effect, as it's placed on the profile with no Ld, and as we know from other weapons such as the Abyssal Staff or the Neural Shredder, that also wound based on the target's Ld, they don't affect vehicles.
So you're arguing HYWPI. That's cool, but not what you initially stated.
My problem with the argument about not rolling is that it is entirely HIWPI as well even though few agree that it is. Unless you can back up not following a requirement just because you don't know how with a rule from the book it is just as reasonable to request that you not use those powers.
Same old same old.
Witchfire must roll To Hit: "Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless (...) it is a Template weapon, which hit automatically."
Psychic Shriek cannot hit automatically. Or prove it is a template.
How many Dice to check if it misses? No rules support.
But my old post shows my position:
The "witchfire power must roll To Hit" and we know that you do such a thing using the "roll a D6 for each shot that is in range. Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons are ..." RaW
Now either as you both agree we simply ignore the first part for some tests (and do not refer to the To Hit RaW), or we do take that Rule and, as we have no profile, must use the basic rule ("Most models only get") and not the reference to other detailed weapons ("however, some weapons").
Pretty much this:
Mavlun wrote: If you missed, you missed the shooting attack, and you don't proceed with the rest of the text, aka the effect of the psychic power.
Gravmyr wrote: My problem with the argument about not rolling is that it is entirely HIWPI as well even though few agree that it is. Unless you can back up not following a requirement just because you don't know how with a rule from the book it is just as reasonable to request that you not use those powers.
It is just as much HYPWI to not roll to hit as to not do the following actions that likewise are unresolvable to lack of relevant profile:
1) Apply -1T modifier from Enfeeble on a vehicle.
2) Roll to wound with PS after you've hit.
3) Roll 3d6-ld for a vehicle after manifesting PS on it.
4) Applying the wounds to a vehicle from above (or indeed any other effect that generates wounds and doesn't specify that it has jo effect on Vehicles).
So if we are being consistent we HAVE to treat all these situations the same. So if you're making up a profile to roll to hit you have to also to the same to roll to wound/armour pen for that hit and make up a profile to resolve Enfeeble and PS against vehicles. So which is it? Do you believe any of the 4 situations above are simply ignored because they can't be resolved? If you believe that then you believe no roll to hit is made for PS.
In this specific situation it gives you 2 possible ways to resolve do the 3d6-ld against the Chariot unit as a whole as per the PS entry or resolve against the Chariot and instantly remove it...
We know that if you roll to hit and miss the attack is discarded (there is litterally no case in the rules where a miss on a to hit roll still counts as a hit).
We know that chariots share both the rider and vehicles profile (so it does have a leadership score).
We can resolve psychic shriek with no issues.
Chariots are told to allocate hits, so the single hit can be allocated to either the vehicle or rider. The vehicle is considered to have its rider's leadership of 10 so we can resolve the 3d6-10 as per psychic shriek.
The spell only deals wounds. This means whether you allocate the hit to the barge or the lord, wounds are generated.
Since the vehicle has no wounds you are left with only 2 options:
1. The rider has to take the saves, since his portion of the characteristic chart is the only one with wounds.
2. The chariot suffer glancing hits for each wound inflicted (making up rules here).
3. The wounds hit the vehicle and disapear (making up rules here).
We are only left with 1 as somthing we can do since the other 2 options are completely out of the scope of the rules set.
Eihnlazer wrote: Chariots are told to allocate hits, so the single hit can be allocated to either the vehicle or rider. The vehicle is considered to have its rider's leadership of 10 so we can resolve the 3d6-10 as per psychic shriek.
3. The wounds hit the vehicle and disapear (making up rules here).
Not really. The Vehicle has no Leadership, only the Rider.
3. Is not making up rules. It is simply un-resolvable because the owner decided the Shooting attack Hits the Vehicle (Which he's allowed to do).
Mavlun wrote: If you missed, you missed the shooting attack, and you don't proceed with the rest of the text, aka the effect of the psychic power.
Quick clarification, if you missed you missed the shooting attack, and you don't proceed with the roll to wound step. Which I will gladly do, I will not roll to wound with my str N/A attack.
Mavlun wrote: If you missed, you missed the shooting attack, and you don't proceed with the rest of the text, aka the effect of the psychic power.
Quick clarification, if you missed you missed the shooting attack, and you don't proceed with the roll to wound step. Which I will gladly do, I will not roll to wound with my str N/A attack.
No, if you missed, you simply have no Hit.
With no Hit, you have no To Wound step. If a Power does not Hit, why do you resolve it?
Eihnlazer wrote: Chariots are told to allocate hits, so the single hit can be allocated to either the vehicle or rider. The vehicle is considered to have its rider's leadership of 10 so we can resolve the 3d6-10 as per psychic shriek.
3. The wounds hit the vehicle and disapear (making up rules here).
Not really. The Vehicle has no Leadership, only the Rider.
3. Is not making up rules. It is simply un-resolvable because the owner decided the Shooting attack Hits the Vehicle (Which he's allowed to do).
Cool so by that you agree there is no to hit roll for Psychic shriek as that is literally what you have claimed in the case of an action being unresolvable due to lack of relevant profile.
We know that if you roll to hit and miss the attack is discarded (there is litterally no case in the rules where a miss on a to hit roll still counts as a hit).
Incorrect. If you miss there is no to wound roll made any other effects from the attack will still take place unless they specify otherwise.
We know that chariots share both the rider and vehicles profile (so it does have a leadership score).
We can resolve psychic shriek with no issues.
False they have separate stat lines.
Chariots are told to allocate hits, so the single hit can be allocated to either the vehicle or rider. The vehicle is considered to have its rider's leadership of 10 so we can resolve the 3d6-10 as per psychic shriek.
Hits yes you can assign the undefined number of hits to the chariot you then MUST roll armour pen for those hits. The unit still takes 3d6-LD wounds.
The spell only deals wounds. This means whether you allocate the hit to the barge or the lord, wounds are generated.
Since the vehicle has no wounds you are left with only 2 options:
1. The rider has to take the saves, since his portion of the characteristic chart is the only one with wounds.
2. The chariot suffer glancing hits for each wound inflicted (making up rules here).
3. The wounds hit the vehicle and disapear (making up rules here).
We are only left with 1 as somthing we can do since the other 2 options are completely out of the scope of the rules set.
Yes also choosing 3 is entirely inconsistent with deciding that PS generates hits.
Eihnlazer wrote: We know that chariots share both the rider and vehicles profile (so it does have a leadership score).
We can resolve psychic shriek with no issues.
Chariots are told to allocate hits, so the single hit can be allocated to either the vehicle or rider. The vehicle is considered to have its rider's leadership of 10 so we can resolve the 3d6-10 as per psychic shriek.
The vehicle does not have "the rider's leadership score". The vehicle HAS no leadership score. It doesn't matter that they share a profile. The vehicle profile, is still the vehicle profile, and as such, it has NO leadership score.
By your faulty logic, bolters still cause wounds on the chariot model, because even if you allocate the hits to the vehicle, the vehicle shares the Wounds characteristic of the rider, so you can roll to Wound even if I allocated the hits to the vehicle.
So no.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As a side note, the official ruling for this year's ETC (though I doubt the majority of dakka has heard of it, or cares one bit ) was the following concerning this very issue:
"When manifesting Witchfires or Focussed Witchfires that do not follow the normal shooting process, make
one to hit roll to see if the power connects like in the case of Psychic Shriek."
"Shooting attacks (e.g. Necron Abyssal Staff), Psychic shooting attacks (e.g. Psychic Shriek) or
abilities/wargear (e.g. Obsidian Orb) that do not roll for armor penetration (e.g. because they
use Leadership values as reference value to resolve wounds or effects) can only be resolved if
the hit is allocated to the rider. If the hit is allocated to the chariot, it will have no effect on the
model."
Bolters can attempt a penetration roll and so wounding never comes up when the bolter hits are allocated to the vehicle.
If an attack has a str score, it can attempt to pen the armor. Whether or not it actually can penetrate or not doesnt matter.
Psychic shriek can never penetrate AV as it has no strength score. It just deals wounds.
And Psychic shriek is LD based, and the vehicle has no LD characteristic in its profile, nor does it have any wounds to allocate to it. You don't magically get to use the rider's Leadership for some attacks, but don't get to use the rider's wounds for other attacks.
Do you agree that you select a profile and THAT is the profile affected by the attack (cause if you don't, you're breaking rules) ?
I disagree with this statement as do the rules. Hits from a shooting attack are resolved against the allocated profile not the entire attack. This is different because for example a shooting attack from an assault 20 weapon could do 10 hits to each profile, or in the case of PS the 3d6-ld effect is still applied to the unit as a whole.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And Psychic shriek is LD based, and the vehicle has no LDcharacteristic in its profile, nor does it have any wounds to allocate to it. You don't magically get to use the rider's Leadership for some attacks, but don't get to use the rider's wounds for other attacks.
Yet you do magically get an assault 1 profile for Psychic Shriek and magically tie that to the 3d6-ld effect? This is your concession if you believe that when you have an unresolvable situation due to lack of profile that you ignore it and move on rather than magically get numbers from elsewhere to resolve it, then you believe that PS foes not roll to hit. So why are you still arguing?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh it looks like Imperial Knights are going to be terrible at ETC or indeed any vehicle as it insta dies to Psychic Shriek as they count as Ld1 & 1 wound due to that FAQ which says if an unresolvable situation due to lack of relevant profile exists then you count the profile as being 1.
I disagree with this statement as do the rules. Hits from a shooting attack are resolved against the allocated profile not the entire attack. This is different because for example a shooting attack from an assault 20 weapon could do 10 hits to each profile, or in the case of PS the 3d6-ld effect is still applied to the unit as a whole.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yet you do magically get an assault 1 profile for Psychic Shriek and magically tie that to the 3d6-ld effect? This is your concession if you believe that when you have an unresolvable situation due to lack of profile that you ignore it and move on rather than magically get numbers from elsewhere to resolve it, then you believe that PS foes not roll to hit. So why are you still arguing?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh it looks like Imperial Knights are going to be terrible at ETC or indeed any vehicle as it insta dies to Psychic Shriek as they count as Ld1 & 1 wound due to that FAQ which says if an unresolvable situation due to lack of relevant profile exists then you count the profile as being 1.
Yes, I'm aware that you support the notion that the effect pf witchfire spells still goes off despite the hit not being made, and I disagree with it fully. If the effect of a witchfire spell could go off without needing a hit, there would not be an additional rule for it, saying they NEED to roll to hit.
Yes, I've said I think 4 times now, that my concession is that since it doesn't have a proper shooting profile, you get 1 attack, and I stopped arguing with you, in case you didn't notice, and was discussing with Eihnlazer.
I'm curious as to which FAQ you're referring to that states that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eihnlazer wrote: So I suggest that since we are both breaking rules we actually use the way that can be resolved instead of a way that cant.
Actually moves the game along..........
True, anybody that uses Psychic Shriek in ANY way is breaking the rules, since it's currently an unplayable power, without some sort of house rule, and I've mentioned ours in earlier posts.
Yes, I've said I think 4 times now, that my concession is that since it doesn't have a proper shooting profile, you get 1 attack, and I stopped arguing with you, in case you didn't notice, and was discussing with Eihnlazer.
I'm curious as to which FAQ you're referring to that states that.
Well both your interpretation that no profile = make it up to be a 1 and the ETCFAQ saying the same. That is your rules interpretation.
Yes, I'm aware that you support the notion that the effect pf witchfire spells still goes off despite the hit not being made, and I disagree with it fully. If the effect of a witchfire spell could go off without needing a hit, there would not be an additional rule for it, saying they NEED to roll to hit.
Please don't lie it is not helpful. You know full well there is no rule requiring the power to hit (there is one requiring a to hit roll) and there is no rule stating a to hit roll has ANYTHING to do with the effect.
Yes, I've said I think 4 times now, that my concession is that since it doesn't have a proper shooting profile, you get 1 attack, and I stopped arguing with you, in case you didn't notice, and was discussing with Eihnlazer.
I'm curious as to which FAQ you're referring to that states that.
Well both your interpretation that no profile = make it up to be a 1 and the ETCFAQ saying the same. That is your rules interpretation.
Yes, I'm aware that you support the notion that the effect pf witchfire spells still goes off despite the hit not being made, and I disagree with it fully. If the effect of a witchfire spell could go off without needing a hit, there would not be an additional rule for it, saying they NEED to roll to hit.
Please don't lie it is not helpful. You know full well there is no rule requiring the power to hit (there is one requiring a to hit roll) and there is no rule stating a to hit roll has ANYTHING to do with the effect.
So you're saying that because an FAQ says in a specific instance, for a specific power that doesn't have a shooting profile, that you use 1 to hit roll, that the same FAQ therefore claims that whenever there's a missing characteristic from a profile, you count it as 1 ? That is one interestingly warped way of looking at things you have there Hyperbole aside, I don't think I read the rule you quote anywhere in the FAQ, so if you could point it out to me, that would be appreciated.
Please don't put words in my mouth, I specifically stated that it is a they need to roll to hit. There is no rule anywhere stating that you don't need a hit. The portion at the beginning of the Psychic phase chapter, which you keep citing, refers to psychic powers IN GENERAL, as opposed to witchfire powers, which are explained to be normal shooting attacks, in every respect, to the point where you can even make snapshots with it, you need LoS, you need range, you need to allocate wounds to the closest model, etc.
And from the shooting phase sequence, we know that you stop at the end of Step 4, proceeding to Step 5, the wounding process, only for to roll hits that produced actual hits. This has been said over and over and over again, we're going around in circles. Now you're going to reply saying "Well it has no shooting profile, herpaderpaderp, therefore it needs to work regardless of whether it hits or not" and I'm going to come back saying "no, cause it's a shooting attack", and we're going to keep doing this forever. Let's agree to disagree, and pray that GW get off their lazy asses and put out an FAQ dealing with this nonsense.
So please explain to why you would treat the to hit roll differently to the wound roll and the 3d6-ld roll? Why are you sometimes making up profiles when you don't have a relevant one and sometimes ignoring the unresolvable process?
The shooting phase tells you that you don't do step 5 or the steps after that if you don't hit. Are any of those steps roll 3d6-ld and apply that many wounds?
FlingitNow wrote: So please explain to why you would treat the to hit roll differently to the wound roll and the 3d6-ld roll? Why are you sometimes making up profiles when you don't have a relevant one and sometimes ignoring the unresolvable process?
The shooting phase tells you that you don't do step 5 or the steps after that if you don't hit. Are any of those steps roll 3d6-ld and apply that many wounds?
That sequence applies to any shooting attack. PS is a shooting attack. No further explanations required.
It is important to note that as a Psychic Shooting Attack, if you roll a 6 to Hit you may allocate it to the Rider.
Also, just to throw in my $.02, I would say that you cannot pass the psychic shriek onto the rider if the player wanted it on the chariot. The Chariot has no LD, and the rules don't say that stats carry over between the rider and chariot, only modifications of stats(ie that is why you don't treat the CCB has having 3 wounds and toughness 5, which would follow your logic of assigning the Riders LD10 to the Chariot). Since the vehicle has no wounds to subtract from, the attack is useless
nosferatu1001 wrote: Mav - please cite a rule requiring a hit before you resolve the rest of the power
You cannot do this, so please stop asserting there is a requirement. There isn't. It doesn't exist.
I have already. You can find it in the BRB under Witchfire powers, where it states that it's a shooting attack.
I've been repeating myself far too long in this thread. If you don't consider the To Wound part of the PS attack, as the 3d6-Ld, then it's automatically failed, as it has no Strength, so you can't resolve step 5 of the Shooting Sequence, and the "resolve according to entry" does not supersede the fact that it's a witchfire spell, with a very clear rule, that makes it a shooting attack.
I've been repeating myself far too long in this thread. If you don't consider the To Wound part of the PS attack, as the 3d6-Ld, then it's automatically failed, as it has no Strength, so you can't resolve step 5 of the Shooting Sequence, and the "resolve according to entry" does not supersede the fact that it's a witchfire spell, with a very clear rule, that makes it a shooting attack.
And once again you contradict both yourself and the rules. If the 3d6-ld is step 5 THEN it autofails due to no strength. The fact that it is in no way step 5 is what makes it work. Also why are you saying no profile means we do not perform the step when you repeatedly claim that no profile means we make up a number to complete the step? Read Step 5 andthen tell me where it states roll 3d6-ld, tell me where in Psychic Shriek it says that the 3d6-ld is a replacement to normal step 5.
Also why to you keep refusing to answer the question of why you choose to treat the roll to hit differently to every other instance of an unresolvable situation due to lack of a profile? Why? Further refusal to answer this question will be taken as your concession as you are clearly trolling at this point.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Mav - please cite a rule requiring a hit before you resolve the rest of the power
You cannot do this, so please stop asserting there is a requirement. There isn't. It doesn't exist.
I have already. You can find it in the BRB under Witchfire powers, where it states that it's a shooting attack.
I've been repeating myself far too long in this thread. If you don't consider the To Wound part of the PS attack, as the 3d6-Ld, then it's automatically failed, as it has no Strength, so you can't resolve step 5 of the Shooting Sequence, and the "resolve according to entry" does not supersede the fact that it's a witchfire spell, with a very clear rule, that makes it a shooting attack.
Incorrect, nothing in witchfire requires a succesful to hit before you cN resolve the rest. Try again, or concede and Mark your posts as hywpi, as they have absolutely no rules basis. None.
Lets assume for a minute that a hit roll is required. We hit with a roll of a 5. Necron play then allocates the hit to the vehicle.
This is where is gets tricky.
PS tells us to roll 3d6 and compare to the unit's LD. While the hit might have been allocated to the vehicle, the rules for PS clearly tell us to use the unit's LD, which would be the rider in this case, as his is the only LD vlaue for the unit.
Incorrect, nothing in witchfire requires a succesful to hit before you cN resolve the rest. Try again, or concede and Mark your posts as hywpi, as they have absolutely no rules basis. None.
You're claiming that shooting attacks do not need to score hits in order to wound. Your opinion is moot.
Incorrect, nothing in witchfire requires a succesful to hit before you cN resolve the rest. Try again, or concede and Mark your posts as hywpi, as they have absolutely no rules basis. None.
You're claiming that shooting attacks do not need to score hits in order to wound. Your opinion is moot.
Shooting attacks need to roll to hit and hit in order to roll to wound. Most shooting attacks have no other way to cause wounds, however this is not true for all shooting attacks as Psychic Shriek proves. His opinion on this matter is just stating what the rulebook states. Your opinion is that you make up random rules as and when it suits you.
The fact you have still refused to answer the question proves you know your interpretation is in correct and proves you are simply trolling at this point. Your concession is accepted.
extremefreak17 wrote: Lets assume for a minute that a hit roll is required. We hit with a roll of a 5. Necron play then allocates the hit to the vehicle.
This is where is gets tricky.
PS tells us to roll 3d6 and compare to the unit's LD. While the hit might have been allocated to the vehicle, the rules for PS clearly tell us to use the unit's LD, which would be the rider in this case, as his is the only LD vlaue for the unit.
I agree with this being an issue, and I think it is what many people miss. Psychic shriek does not go off a model hit in a units LD but the LD of the unit, and allocating it to the vehicle profile doesn't change that the unit has a LD value, which would come into question on any other LD test.
Generation of wounds on the chariot would still reduce the wounds characteristic of the rider as per that its a modification of a characteristic, and the RAW for chariots states that it applies to both rider and chariot if it is a characteristic modifier.
Many people put forth the false idea that it makes no sense because then you could fire bolters and if allocated to the chariot would cause wounds to the rider which does not apply because when you allocate that hit to the chariot you do affect based on the model and not the unit value, and obviously when you are rolling S vs. AV you cannot generate wounds as that generates no effect/glance/pens.
This also of course touches on the question on LD tests for models that are in units with vehicles, which is very very rare but does occur in things like the helcult formation. If you used psychic shriek on it, and the helbrute was the closest model, normally the helbrute would be the target hit, but it has no LD value. Does this mean psychic shriek does nothing? No, as the rules state it uses the UNITS LD value, so despite the model hit not having an LD value the unit does, which is the LD of the cultists. Obviously you cannot put wounds on the helbrute and have them do anything, but in the case of chariots we do have an option to apply a characteristic modifier to the chariot and as per RAW it affects the rider and chariot. Wounds is a characterisitc, and reducing it is a modifier. Normally we cannot put wounds on a chariot due to not being able to generate wounds under 'normal situations' against a vehicle, but the chariot rules call out that we can in this instance- and that they will also apply to the rider.
Incorrect, nothing in witchfire requires a succesful to hit before you cN resolve the rest. Try again, or concede and Mark your posts as hywpi, as they have absolutely no rules basis. None.
You're claiming that shooting attacks do not need to score hits in order to wound. Your opinion is moot.
No, I am being very precise in stating that in order to roll to-wound you must have a succesful to-hit. As those are actual rules, unlike your baseless opinion which contradicts the rules of this forum. If you could follow the tenets that would be peachy, thanks
Find a rule stating that in order to resolve a witchfire non-to-wound effects you must hve a successful to-hit roll.
Continued refusal to provide a single relevant rules quote is concession.
What about Pask and Chronus? Since they have a leadership characterisitic, can they be targeted with Psychic Shriek as well? What about embarked passengers on a transport?
Sautek Supreme wrote: What about Pask and Chronus? Since they have a leadership characterisitic, can they be targeted with Psychic Shriek as well? What about embarked passengers on a transport?
That depends on your interpretation. If you believe unresolvable actions due to lack of relevant profile are ignored and thus PS does not roll to hit you apply it to those models but any wounds it causes do nothing. However if you believe that you roll to hit for PS then yes PS effects those units and as soon as it does 1 wound they die.
Lets look at how Psychic Scream wounds normal units.
I've got a Squad of a single surviving Tau Fire Warriors (ld7), a Shas'ui (Ld8) and have Dark Strider attached (ld9).
A fire warrior is the closest.
Psychic Scream hits with the arbitrary to hit role.
12 is rolled on 3D6.
What leadership do you use?
How many wounds are inflicted?
Who takes those wounds?
How are models who weren't hit taking wounds?
Once you can RAW how psychic shriek works on a normal target, then you can tackle a CCB.
I'm going to bet that if it ever get's FAQ'd, that psychic shriek will get the Soul Fright treatment (preventing you from allocating to models who are immune).
extremefreak17 wrote: Lets assume for a minute that a hit roll is required. We hit with a roll of a 5. Necron play then allocates the hit to the vehicle.
This is where is gets tricky.
PS tells us to roll 3d6 and compare to the unit's LD. While the hit might have been allocated to the vehicle, the rules for PS clearly tell us to use the unit's LD, which would be the rider in this case, as his is the only LD vlaue for the unit.
I agree with this being an issue, and I think it is what many people miss. Psychic shriek does not go off a model hit in a units LD but the LD of the unit, and allocating it to the vehicle profile doesn't change that the unit has a LD value, which would come into question on any other LD test.
Except it doesn't. The unit uses the profile of where the hit is allocated - there exists no permission to use the LD of the other profile.
Generation of wounds on the chariot would still reduce the wounds characteristic of the rider as per that its a modification of a characteristic, and the RAW for chariots states that it applies to both rider and chariot if it is a characteristic modifier.
Reducing wounds is not a characteristic modifier.
This also of course touches on the question on LD tests for models that are in units with vehicles, which is very very rare but does occur in things like the helcult formation. If you used psychic shriek on it, and the helbrute was the closest model, normally the helbrute would be the target hit, but it has no LD value. Does this mean psychic shriek does nothing?
Yes.
No, as the rules state it uses the UNITS LD value, so despite the model hit not having an LD value the unit does, which is the LD of the cultists.
Quote the rule that says the unit's LD is some "majority rules" thing.
blaktoof wrote: Reducing wounds is a characteristic modifier, state how you change a models wound characteristic from 1-0 without modifying it by the RAW.
The model gets to make a saving throw, if it has one. If it fails, reduce that model’s Wounds by 1. If the model is reduced to 0 Wounds, remove it as a casualty.
so reducing isn't a modifier? the act of a characteristic going from the number 1 to the number 0 by being reduced by a number of 1 or more isn't a modifier?
blaktoof wrote: so reducing isn't a modifier? the act of a characteristic going from the number 1 to the number 0 by being reduced by a number of 1 or more isn't a modifier?
Since it never has to reference the modifier rules to do so...
Even if it was (which I don't concede) your argument has other holes you should deal with first.
Lets see if we can all follow this.
Power goes off.
I roll to hit, because witchfire says so. I choose to roll 1 die, because reasons.
That die roll hits.
The chariot owner assigns the hit.
Roll to wound/penetrate is skipped, because P-shriek has no strength value.
Psychic Shriek then says roll 3D6 and subtract the units LD.
The over-lord has a 10, the chariot has no leadership, but "Never takes More checks or Leadership tests" (page 78).
Let's assume we use the chariots lack of leadership as 0.
Shriek rolls average and does 10 wounds.
10 wounds go into the wound pool (chariot rule only allows the hit to be allocated, and the to wound/pen is skipped).
Allocate Wounds:
Assign wounds to the closest model.
The CCB, and the Over-lord riding in it, are both the exact same distance away, the owning player chooses which model is attacked. (page 35 under Closest model, allocating wounds).
So even if you ignore the to-hit roll, or auto-hit, and even if you go with Ld0 for the CCB, once the wound pool is generated, it's up to the Controlling player of the CCB to decide how to split them up.
Having zero wounds can't kill a vehicle. If it did, every vehicle would instantly die upon deployment for having zero wounds.
Looks like to me:
1) Psychic Shriek is a mess.
2) CCB is immune to it.
CCB is certainly not immune to PS. Either PS doesn't roll to hit in which case the wounds effect the rider or PS rolls 1 dice to hit and if that hit is assign to the barge then it is insta removed as it takes atleast 2 wounds and only has 1.
HawaiiMatt wrote: Lets see if we can all follow this.
Power goes off.
I roll to hit, because witchfire says so. I choose to roll 1 die, because reasons.
That die roll hits.
The chariot owner assigns the hit.
Roll to wound/penetrate is skipped, because P-shriek has no strength value.
Psychic Shriek then says roll 3D6 and subtract the units LD.
The over-lord has a 10, the chariot has no leadership, but "Never takes More checks or Leadership tests" (page 78).
Let's assume we use the chariots lack of leadership as 0.
Shriek rolls average and does 10 wounds.
10 wounds go into the wound pool (chariot rule only allows the hit to be allocated, and the to wound/pen is skipped).
Allocate Wounds:
Assign wounds to the closest model.
The CCB, and the Over-lord riding in it, are both the exact same distance away, the owning player chooses which model is attacked. (page 35 under Closest model, allocating wounds).
So even if you ignore the to-hit roll, or auto-hit, and even if you go with Ld0 for the CCB, once the wound pool is generated, it's up to the Controlling player of the CCB to decide how to split them up.
Having zero wounds can't kill a vehicle. If it did, every vehicle would instantly die upon deployment for having zero wounds.
Looks like to me:
1) Psychic Shriek is a mess.
2) CCB is immune to it.
So a few things.
1. The rider and chariot are not separate models, it is a single model.
2. Where does the owning player get permission to allocate Wounds to one of the Chariot profiles?
3. Having 0 Wounds does not "kill" you. Being reduced to 0 Wounds is what kills you.
HawaiiMatt wrote: Let's assume we use the chariots lack of leadership as 0.
Having zero wounds can't kill a vehicle. If it did, every vehicle would instantly die upon deployment for having zero wounds.
Two things you got completely wrong. Lack of leadership != 0 leadership.
And its being reduced from 1 to 0 that causes issues, not having 0. There's a difference (irrelevant in this case, but worth pointing out).
HawaiiMatt wrote: Let's assume we use the chariots lack of leadership as 0.
Having zero wounds can't kill a vehicle. If it did, every vehicle would instantly die upon deployment for having zero wounds.
Two things you got completely wrong. Lack of leadership != 0 leadership.
And its being reduced from 1 to 0 that causes issues, not having 0. There's a difference (irrelevant in this case, but worth pointing out).
I didn't say that lack of leadership = 0. I said assume it as 0, since it doesn't matter.
Let's assume we use the chariots lack of leadership as 0.
The CCB, and the Over-lord riding in it, are both the exact same distance away, the owning player chooses which model is attacked. (page 35 under Closest model, allocating wounds).
So a few things.
1. The rider and chariot are not separate models, it is a single model.
2. Where does the owning player get permission to allocate Wounds to one of the Chariot profiles?
3. Having 0 Wounds does not "kill" you. Being reduced to 0 Wounds is what kills you.
1. The CCB is a model. The overlord is a model. They are the same model.
2. Permission to allocate is grated on page 35, closest model. If only a single model is present, the controlling player chooses to allocate it to the model. Normally this wouldn't ever come up, but Shriek by-passing the normal rolling to wound after allocating a hit has created a wound pool on the unit, despite how the hit is allocated.
Once you have a wound pool, those wounds must be allocated. You aren't told to do it randomly, which only leaves the controlling player allocating to the closest model, which is the CCB/Overlord.
PS is a witchfire, regardless of how many dice you roll it is considered a shooting attack.
The chariot page in the BRB specifies that all shooting attacks against the CCB are then spilt into a wound pool. So assuming you shoot at the CCB, the 1 hit would then be allocated by the controlling player. To the vehicle.
The chariot itself is considered one model, but the controlling player chooses where shooting attacks are allocated, therefore he can select to choose the chariot.
Because it uses the characteristic of the model to roll against the models leadership, you would use the Overlords leadership in this situation, however all wounds allocated will go to the barge. The vehicle cannot take wounds, therefore it's as simple as the controlling player rolling up the shields on PS.
How can you argue that the wounds would be transfered to the overlord? That's like saying somehow you pen the vehicle and the overlord suffers hullpoint damage or suffers a pen result lol.
I also don't understand how people believe that a witchfire can not roll to hit and still go off. All other witchfires fail to hit, fail to go off. How would PS make an exception to that rule? Regardless of how many dice you have to roll. Witchfire in the BRB is explained. (Even if PS is not)
Edit2: p.27 BRB - Witchfire - "Witchfire Powers are shooting attacks." Most people argue that because there's a leadership test after and we don't know how many shots we are suppose to take, it doesn't matter if you hit. However, since we treat witchfire as a shooting attack, we go to see how normal shooting is dictated. p.32 under roll to hit - When rolling To Hit, there is no such thing as an automatic hit, and a roll of 1 always misses.
So some how, hit or miss, you guys still assume a test is taken even though every other witchfire that doesn't share a similarity to PS automatically goes off? Seems like you're making your own rules up at that point.
Mavlun wrote: as opposed to witchfire powers, which are explained to be normal shooting attacks, in every respect, to the point where you can even make snapshots with it, you need LoS, you need range, you need to allocate wounds to the closest model, etc.
And from the shooting phase sequence, we know that you stop at the end of Step 4, proceeding to Step 5, the wounding process, only for to roll hits that produced actual hits. This has been said over and over and over again, we're going around in circles. Now you're going to reply saying "Well it has no shooting profile, herpaderpaderp, therefore it needs to work regardless of whether it hits or not" and I'm going to come back saying "no, cause it's a shooting attack", and we're going to keep doing this forever. Let's agree to disagree, and pray that GW get off their lazy asses and put out an FAQ dealing with this nonsense.
Thanks Mavlun!
I've pretty much made my Call on this:
witchfire = Shooting attack. Rolling To Hit is defined.
Using your words as mine:
"Now you're going to reply saying "Well it has no shooting profile, herpaderpaderp, therefore it needs to work regardless of whether it hits or not" and I'm going to come back saying "no, cause it's a shooting attack", and we're going to keep doing this forever. Let's agree to disagree, and pray that GW get off their lazy asses and put out an FAQ dealing with this nonsense."
The roll to hit is defined as is the roll to wound. It is impossible to resolve either of those rolls for PS due to lack of a profile. So why stop at making up rules to roll to hit? Why not make up a profile to roll to wound on too? No one on your side has ever been able to answer this.
Lets assume it is assault 1 for a second and has a profile. Guess what the 3d6-ld wounds still occurs regardless of that roll to hit. Why? Because literally NOTHING in the rules links the 2 effects. So why again link it to the roll to hit why not link it to the roll to wound? Or link it to a failed save? Why arbitrarily link it to a successful hit? Again no one on your side of the argument has been able to answer this.
Lets see how you handle similar situations. Lets say I manifest Haemmorage and target a vehicle. The toughness test roll is well defined, impossible to auto pass and required to happen. However the vehicle lacks the relevant profile. So do you set it to T1 or say it has no effect?
Once you've resolved your T1 test and it fails you then have a wound on the vehicle. However the vehicle has no woubds characteristic so do you say it is uneffected by wounds or set it to W1 and remove it as a casualty?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Whacked wrote: PS is a witchfire, regardless of how many dice you roll it is considered a shooting attack.
The chariot page in the BRB specifies that all shooting attacks against the CCB are then spilt into a wound pool. So assuming you shoot at the CCB, the 1 hit would then be allocated by the controlling player. To the vehicle.
The chariot itself is considered one model, but the controlling player chooses where shooting attacks are allocated, therefore he can select to choose the chariot.
Because it uses the characteristic of the model to roll against the models leadership, you would use the Overlords leadership in this situation, however all wounds allocated will go to the barge. The vehicle cannot take wounds, therefore it's as simple as the controlling player rolling up the shields on PS.
How can you argue that the wounds would be transfered to the overlord? That's like saying somehow you pen the vehicle and the overlord suffers hullpoint damage or suffers a pen result lol.
I also don't understand how people believe that a witchfire can not roll to hit and still go off. All other witchfires fail to hit, fail to go off. How would PS make an exception to that rule? Regardless of how many dice you have to roll. Witchfire in the BRB is explained. (Even if PS is not)
Edit2: p.27 BRB - Witchfire - "Witchfire Powers are shooting attacks." Most people argue that because there's a leadership test after and we don't know how many shots we are suppose to take, it doesn't matter if you hit. However, since we treat witchfire as a shooting attack, we go to see how normal shooting is dictated. p.32 under roll to hit - When rolling To Hit, there is no such thing as an automatic hit, and a roll of 1 always misses.
So some how, hit or miss, you guys still assume a test is taken even though every other witchfire that doesn't share a similarity to PS automatically goes off? Seems like you're making your own rules up at that point.
Read the thread and the relevant rules every point you've brought up has been covered and debunked.
FlingitNow wrote: The CCB & Overlord are the same model so it gets assigned to that model as a whole. It effects both profiles.
Got a quote for that? Your doubling the size of the wound pool if you apply 1 wound twice to a model.
Please give a page reference.
As for the to hit roll, wither you roll 1 die, a million dice, or no dice, you still generate a wound pool that the controlling player is left to allocate.
The chariot rules only lets you single out one part or another when you roll to wound, roll to penetrate. Psychic Shriek skips that step. That puts the wound pool back on track for normal rules of distributing wounds.
FlingitNow wrote: Page 86 second paragraph, 2nd & 4th sentences are the relevant ones.
2nd Paragraph.
2nd sentence.
A rider cannot disembark from his chariot, nor can he be targeted separately from his chariot.
4th sentence:
If the Rider has a special rule that returns it to play after it has been removed as a casualty, such as a Necron's Ever-ling special rule, that model's Chariot is also returned to play with a single Hull Point.
I don't see anything there to make me think that wounds are applied to both profiles.
The 3rd sentence that's that if the rider is reduced to 0 wounds, or his chariot is destroyed, then the entire model is removed. But that has nothing to do with allocating hits, but rather is a process you complete once either half of the combined unit is taken out.
FlingitNow wrote: The roll to hit is defined as is the roll to wound. It is impossible to resolve either of those rolls for PS due to lack of a profile. So why stop at making up rules to roll to hit? ...blah blah blah.
The rules require a witchfire to roll to hit. Pure RAW. So everything you say is invalid without addressing that.
PS is broken, pure and simple. Everything you (and everyone) arguing here is HIWPI because RAW doesnt work.
FlingitNow wrote: Page 86 second paragraph, 2nd & 4th sentences are the relevant ones.
2nd Paragraph.
2nd sentence.
A rider cannot disembark from his chariot, nor can he be targeted separately from his chariot.
4th sentence:
If the Rider has a special rule that returns it to play after it has been removed as a casualty, such as a Necron's Ever-ling special rule, that model's Chariot is also returned to play with a single Hull Point.
I don't see anything there to make me think that wounds are applied to both profiles.
The 3rd sentence that's that if the rider is reduced to 0 wounds, or his chariot is destroyed, then the entire model is removed. But that has nothing to do with allocating hits, but rather is a process you complete once either half of the combined unit is taken out.
Yes if you skip the 2nd paragraph and jump to the 3rd you'll get some weird quotes well done.
FlingitNow wrote: The roll to hit is defined as is the roll to wound. It is impossible to resolve either of those rolls for PS due to lack of a profile. So why stop at making up rules to roll to hit? ...blah blah blah.
The rules require a witchfire to roll to hit. Pure RAW. So everything you say is invalid without addressing that.
PS is broken, pure and simple. Everything you (and everyone) arguing here is HIWPI because RAW doesnt work.
So casting Enfeeble on a vehicle is broken too? Haemmorage? Ironarm? Resolving the 3d6-ld wounds from PS against a vehicle also broken. This is correct yes?
show in the rules where it explicitly states the necron player can allocate psychic shriek on chariots, and do nothing to the rider part of the unt or you are making stuff up despite it not having a str/ap value which is required for creating pools to allocate by the RAW.
SHOOTING AT CHARIOTS
When shooting at a Chariot unit, total up the number of successful hits that have been caused. Keep the dice that have scored hits and create a ‘pool’, where each dice represents a hit. If there are hits with different Strengths, AP values or special rules that affect saving throws or any Wounds they inflict, split them into several pools of hits. All hits with exactly the same Strength, AP value and special rules must go into the same pool. If all the hits are the same, there will be only one hit pool.
The player controlling the Chariot unit then allocates each hit pool either to the rider or the Chariot of the closest model in the unit. If several pools of hits need to be allocated, the player making the attacks must decide in which order they are resolved. All hits from a single pool must be allocated and resolved before moving on to the next pool of hits. Hit pools from Blast and Template weapons are always resolved against the Chariot. If the Chariot model is hit by a Precision Shot, that hit is allocated by the firer, not the owning player. When resolving successful hits that have been assigned to a Chariot, work out which of its Armour Values to use as you would for any other vehicle, based on the position of the model compared to the model firing at it.
sooo... i didn't read anything under this post... but to add to the discussion I highlighted in orange an interesting tid bit... does psychic shriek have a "hit pool?"
If yes... then the chariot can take the wounds...
If no... then the rider takes the wounds...
I would be inclined by the wording in power and the rules for chariots to say that the owner of the ccb DOES NOT get to allocate the wounds since it is not a "hit pool" but rather a wound pool... right?
FlingitNow wrote: Yes Psychic Shriek does not generate any hits for the CCB to allocate.
Spoiler:
a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is has the Blast special rule, in which case it
scatters as described in the Blast special rule, or it is a Template weapon, which hit
automatically.
FlingitNow wrote: I'm aware of that. But PS still does not generate any hits. The 3d6-ld wounds have nothing to do with any to hit roll.
Does the PS roll to hit succeed or fail?
FlingitNow wrote: The roll to hit is defined as is the roll to wound. It is impossible to resolve either of those rolls for PS due to lack of a profile.
Wrong. Even with a lack of a profile we can resolve a roll to hit. We are told in the rules to use the model's BS. Only successful hits can generate wounds.
Spoiler:
The Shooting Sequence
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but
has yet to do so this turn.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models
equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the
target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one
visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in
range, cannot shoot.
4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines
what it must roll in order to hit the target. 5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the
target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing
weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.
6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties. Any Wounds caused by the firing
unit must now be allocated, one at a time, to the closest model in the target
unit. A model with a Wound allocated to it can take a saving throw (if it has
one) to avoid being wounded. If a model is reduced to 0 Wounds, it is removed
as a casualty. Wounds are then allocated to the next closest model. Continue to
allocate Wounds and take saving throws until all Wounds have been resolved.
7. Select Another Weapon. After resolving all shots from the currently selected
weapon, if the firing unit is equipped with differently named weapons that
have yet to fire, select another weapon and repeat steps 3 to 6.
It's only at the point in which we are resolving a roll to wound where we have a hiccup in the process if we follow the rules. The lack of a profile leaves the roll to wound somewhat open to interpretation. However if we follow the text in the psychic shriek excerpt (which describes a custom roll to wound by the looks of it) instead of step 5 then we have done everything by the rules and with the least possible intervention to get it to work.
You might think we need to know the profile to know how many shots to roll a hit for. We don't need a profile to resolve that. If the number of shots is not noted we know it to be 1, per the rules.
Spoiler:
Number of Shots
Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a
weapon fires is noted after its type.
Ok lets assume you do roll your 1 dice to hit (with out a profile we actually don't know this that sentence doesn't apply as it talks about shooting weapons PS isn't a shooting weapon because it doesn't have a type page 40). What if I miss. Then I've generated zero hits yet the rules still demand that the unit takes 3d6-LD wounds (pages 24 & 26).
3d6-ld wounds is NOT step 5 as it does not have a S that is compared to a majority T on the chart (pages 30 & 34), nor does it state it replaces a to wound roll, nor does it follow each successful hit (page 198).
So to stop the 3d6-ld wounds you need something that states if PS (or indeed Witchfires or Psychic Powers) do not resolve on a failed to hit roll. Page and paragraph please.
FlingitNow wrote: Ok lets assume you do roll your 1 dice to hit (with out a profile we actually don't know this that sentence doesn't apply as it talks about shooting weapons PS isn't a shooting weapon because it doesn't have a type page 40). What if I miss. Then I've generated zero hits yet the rules still demand that the unit takes 3d6-LD wounds (pages 24 & 26).
3d6-ld wounds is NOT step 5 as it does not have a S that is compared to a majority T on the chart (pages 30 & 34), nor does it state it replaces a to wound roll, nor does it follow each successful hit (page 198).
So to stop the 3d6-ld wounds you need something that states if PS (or indeed Witchfires or Psychic Powers) do not resolve on a failed to hit roll. Page and paragraph please.
Did you somehow forget that Psychic Shriek is witchfire? Witchfire are shooting attacks that roll to hit using BS and only wound on hits. They don't wound on misses. The fact that psychic shriek is a witchfire is indisputable.
The rules are broken. We don't have a profile and we don't have all the pieces. GW F'ed things up here. Are you saying that GW has provided us with a full profile and that we have all the info that we need? We are in patch mode here.
You can stretch the rules and "rules lawyer" off the missing pieces and turn psychic shriek into a malediction but that's obviously wrong since it contradicts what we know is given, that psychic shriek is a witchfire. Or we can do the minimum to get psychic shriek to work like what we know is true, that it is a witchfire, and roll to hit, and if it succeeds then deal with the wounds. We can treat the text that is included in the psychic shriek description as a roll to wound and we can look at case examples like the Necron Abyssal staff as justification.
I can turn the same back on you. Please cite page and paragraph where psychic shriek skips the roll to hit and auto-hits and skips the roll to wound that are required of shooting attacks. If you would rather psychic shriek just breaks and becomes unresolvable and doesn't work at all then that's fine too. Because what we have is a broken mess. And the only clear and logical thing to do is to make it work like witchfire.
So if you want me to provide page and paragraph, write an e-mail to GW to provide you with the missing profile and I will quote from what they provide. And while you are waiting for that, the sensible among us will be playing it like witchfire and not like a malediction, since that much we know is true.
Did you somehow forget that Psychic Shriek is witchfire? Witchfire are shooting attacks that roll to hit using BS and only wound on hits. They don't wound on misses. The fact that psychic shriek is a witchfire is indisputable.
Psychic Shriek can't make a to wound roll ever so why is the roll to hit relevant?
You can stretch the rules and "rules lawyer" off the missing pieces and turn psychic shriek into a malediction but that's obviously wrong since it contradicts what we know is given, that psychic shriek is a witchfire. Or we can do the minimum to get psychic shriek to work like what we know is true, that it is a witchfire, and roll to hit, and if it succeeds then deal with the wounds. We can treat the text that is included in the psychic shriek description as a roll to wound and we can look at case examples like the Necron Abyssal staff as justification.
It's only as broken as manifesting Enfeeble on a vehicle is. Unresolvable events occur all the time and in every other situation we leave them unresolved and move on. Why is the roll to hit such a special flower?
It is nothing like the abyssal staff the abyssal staff tells us to make a to wound roll.
I can turn the same back on you. Please cite page and paragraph where psychic shriek skips the roll to hit and auto-hits and skips the roll to wound that are required of shooting attacks. If you would rather psychic shriek just breaks and becomes unresolvable and doesn't work at all then that's fine too. Because what we have is a broken mess. And the only clear and logical thing to do is to make it work like witchfire.
I've never stated Psychic Shriek hits or wounds automatically. I've ALWAYS stated that those two steps are unresolvable for PS. If you approached every similar situation the same you'd have a point:
" The roll to hit is defined as is the roll to wound. It is impossible to resolve either of those rolls for PS due to lack of a profile. So why stop at making up rules to roll to hit? Why not make up a profile to roll to wound on too? No one on your side has ever been able to answer this.
Lets assume it is assault 1 for a second and has a profile. Guess what the 3d6-ld wounds still occurs regardless of that roll to hit. Why? Because literally NOTHING in the rules links the 2 effects. So why again link it to the roll to hit why not link it to the roll to wound? Or link it to a failed save? Why arbitrarily link it to a successful hit? Again no one on your side of the argument has been able to answer this.
Lets see how you handle similar situations. Lets say I manifest Haemmorage and target a vehicle. The toughness test roll is well defined, impossible to auto pass and required to happen. However the vehicle lacks the relevant profile. So do you set it to T1 or say it has no effect?
Once you've resolved your T1 test and it fails you then have a wound on the vehicle. However the vehicle has no woubds characteristic so do you say it is uneffected by wounds or set it to W1 and remove it as a casualty?"
You of course are free to make up your own houserules on how to play PS but don't try to confuse people on here. The rules are clear.
Col_impact - incorrect. Only succesful to hit rolls meet the requirements for you to roll to-wound rolls. You can cause wounds in other ways perfectly fine on a miss. Please correct your inaccurate and misleading posts.
Yes they are clear as a Witchfire power you cannot resolve it until you figure out how to roll to hit. Using your line of thinking it is unresolvable so I will be magnanimous and allow you to roll for a different power until it's fixed by GW.
Lord Commissar wrote: I have had people try this on me in several of the "big" GT's.
Its a mistake people don't make twice, I enjoyed them having to call a judge to come over who then subsequently explains he just wasted his power.
Kid of like charging an Imperial Knight into Fire Warriors, then learning they have EMP grenades.....
Crowing about a judge making an incorrect call to cheat an opponent out of victory is not exactly good sportmanship...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gravmyr wrote: Yes they are clear as a Witchfire power you cannot resolve it until you figure out how to roll to hit. Using your line of thinking it is unresolvable so I will be magnanimous and allow you to roll for a different power until it's fixed by GW.
Why can you not resolve the power until after resolving the to hit roll?
I also assume say I'm winning in a game and decide to cast Enfeeble on your vehicle the game can not continue until we resolve the unresolvable -1T effect and we sit there until time runs out on the round and I win. This is how you play correct? Or do you say the unresolvable action has no effect and anything depending on that action has no effect and carry on with what can be resolved?
Gravmyr wrote: Yes they are clear as a Witchfire power you cannot resolve it until you figure out how to roll to hit. Using your line of thinking it is unresolvable so I will be magnanimous and allow you to roll for a different power until it's fixed by GW.
How do you resolve enfeeble against a vehicle? You have no T profile to modify.
Yes if you skip the 2nd paragraph and jump to the 3rd you'll get some weird quotes well done.
Sorry, when I was in school, a single line under a title was a header, not a paragraph.
Counting the header as a paragraph, everything your stating hinges on "The target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result" = a modifier like "target unit suffers a -1 penalty"
Where as, page 34 tells us,
Total up the number of Wounds you have caused with the weapons that are firing.
Page 27 tells us that Witchfire powers are shooting attacks, and that Saves can be Taken against Wounds from witchfire in the same way as for any other shooting attack. The weapon firing in this case is "psychic shriek".
Shooting attacks allows saves. I don't see any rules that allow saves for characteristic modifiers.
It looks like Psychic Scream processes as a psychic shooting attack, not a Modifier.
If you can find stronger evidence that psychic shriek is a characteristic modifier as opposed to a shooting attack, then I'd totally agree with you that both the CCB and the Overlord are equally affected.
Why would saves stop it being a modifier? Do wounds caused modify your wounds characteristic? Just because there are rules that can prevent these permanent modifiers from applying does nothing to stop them being modifiers. Also note how the CCB & Overlord are one model for having wounds applied to them due to sentence 2.
col_impact wrote: FlingitNow, are you saying that Psychic Shriek isn't missing a profile?
I'm saying it doesn't have a profile. I'm saying we deal with that the same way we deal with literally every other incidence of an unresolvable action due to lack of a profile. Now please answer my questions or is this you conceding?
col_impact wrote: FlingitNow, are you saying that Psychic Shriek isn't missing a profile?
I'm saying it doesn't have a profile. I'm saying we deal with that the same way we deal with literally every other incidence of an unresolvable action due to lack of a profile. Now please answer my questions or is this you conceding?
Is it missing a profile, yes or no? Or are you conceding?
FlingitNow wrote: Yes there is a missing profile as I stated above. Are you going to answer my questions another post with out answers will betaken as concession.
In order for Psychic Shriek to be resolved as a witchfire, the missing profile needs to be provided, so that you can resolve the roll to hit step and the roll to wound step. Otherwise we don't have enough rules to resolve those steps. The missing profile can be inferred from the rules and information we have about Psychic Shriek.
Enfeeble and Haemorrhage don't work on vehicles, per the rules.
Spoiler:
CHARACTERISTIC TESTS
A model will sometimes be called upon to take a characteristic test. Such a test can be applied against any characteristic that the model has, except for Leadership and Armour Save.
FlingitNow wrote: Enfeeble isn't a characteristic test but a modifier.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Do vehicles have a Toughness character missing yes or no?
Vehicles don't have a Toughness characteristic. It is not missing. It is simply not part of a vehicle's definition. Vehicles cannot take Toughness tests and you cannot modify characteristics that a vehicle does not have. This is all per the rules.
Witchfires are shooting attacks... and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons.
Similarly, a whichfire power must roll to hit, unless blah blah blah.
We know that it's shooting.
We know that many, but not all, have profiles similar to ranged weapons.
That last statement, everyone is focusing on the must roll to hit, unless blast/template or it states otherwise.
But what is the difference in meaning between:
A witchfire power must roll to hit,
and
Similarly, as witchfire power must roll to hit,
If Similarly is telling you to refer to the previous statement of weapons with profiles, then you don't need to roll to hit.
Maybe somebody who's more well study English can explain the use of Similarly in the rule.
Apparently similarly means that this is the strongest rule in the book and you must make up rules to resolve this rule rather than treating it like every other situation where we have an unresolvable action...
FlingitNow wrote: Why would saves stop it being a modifier? Do wounds caused modify your wounds characteristic? Just because there are rules that can prevent these permanent modifiers from applying does nothing to stop them being modifiers. Also note how the CCB & Overlord are one model for having wounds applied to them due to sentence 2.
It's the lack of (+1, +2, etc.), subtracting from it (-1, -2, etc.) multiplying it (x2, x3, etc) or setting the value (1,8 etc.)
Psychic Shriek fails this test.
All the other powers that modify, do follow this format:
Iron Arm, Enfeeble, Warp Speed, Banishment, Hammerhand, Sanctuary, Cursed Earth, Terrify, Horrify, Enhance, Drain, Protect, Empower, Enervate and Death Mission all use this format.
RAW, Psychic Shriek it is not a Modifier.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FlingitNow wrote: Apparently similarly means that this is the strongest rule in the book and you must make up rules to resolve this rule rather than treating it like every other situation where we have an unresolvable action...
Sorry, I was asking for help from somebody with Stronger English skills.
Anyone want to help?
FlingitNow wrote: What rules are you using to make that claim about modifiers?
Ok so:
Psychic Shriek doesn't have a Profile. It is not missing. It is simply not part of a power's definition.
Psychic Shriek is a witchfire. If the profile is missing it needs to be inferred since a profile is required of witchfire. A missing profile is indeed a missing profile in the case of witchfire.
This is the minimum that needs to be inferred to wind up with a psychic shriek that can resolve as witchfire. This by the way is exactly the result that ETC came up with.
* Instead of a to wound roll, roll 3D6 and subtract the target’s Leadership – the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result. Armour and cover saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by Psychic Shriek.
FlingitNow wrote: The Psychic phase rules disagree with you. As HawaiiMatt posted.
That the ETC decided make up their own nonsensical rules for PS is their perogative. You go to their events you play their rules.
You aren't reading the Psychic phase rules correctly (as in using good English sense).
The rules read like this . . .
Spoiler:
Witchfire powers are shooting attacks. Indeed, they are often referred to as psychic
shooting attacks, and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons.
Not this . . .
Spoiler:
Witchfire powers are shooting attacks. Indeed, they are often referred to as psychic
shooting attacks, and many have profiles.
The Witchfire rules disagree with you, you must roll to hit. If you want to say that none of the witchfire have to roll to hit that's up to you. There is nothing in any of the witchfire powers with profiles that says they have to do anything at all with rolling to hit or wound, they simply have a profile. Is that instructions that override the psychic phase rules?
I have stated before I still use the rules from 6th about models without stats and rules that affect them. Due to the fact that GW makes many assumptions about people's ability to remember from one edition to the next how something should be played.
Witchfire powers are shooting attacks. Indeed, they are often referred to as psychic
shooting attacks, and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons.
Good catch.
If many have profiles like ranged weapons, then some have profiles nothing like ranged weapons.
Range 18" is the profile.
Still curious about the use of Similarly before the the statement of must roll to hit.
It's entirely possible to read that as a reference to powers with profiles like ranged weapons.
The requirement to have a target unit, not licked in combat, and in line of sight, is a different sentence and statement than the must roll to hit.
Reading it that way, everything must have a legal target in line of sight. Powers with profiles like ranged weapons must roll to hit, unless template, blast or stated otherwise.
Witchfire powers are shooting attacks. Indeed, they are often referred to as psychic
shooting attacks, and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons.
Good catch.
If many have profiles like ranged weapons, then some have profiles nothing like ranged weapons.
Range 18" is the profile.
Still curious about the use of Similarly before the the statement of must roll to hit.
It's entirely possible to read that as a reference to powers with profiles like ranged weapons.
The requirement to have a target unit, not licked in combat, and in line of sight, is a different sentence and statement than the must roll to hit.
Reading it that way, everything must have a legal target in line of sight. Powers with profiles like ranged weapons must roll to hit, unless template, blast or stated otherwise.
"Similarly" carries no weight in that statement. Longhand, it would read "Just like when shooting a weapon." If it aids your comprehension, you can drop "similarly" from that sentence.
Gravmyr wrote: The Witchfire rules disagree with you, you must roll to hit. If you want to say that none of the witchfire have to roll to hit that's up to you. There is nothing in any of the witchfire powers with profiles that says they have to do anything at all with rolling to hit or wound, they simply have a profile. Is that instructions that override the psychic phase rules?
I have stated before I still use the rules from 6th about models without stats and rules that affect them. Due to the fact that GW makes many assumptions about people's ability to remember from one edition to the next how something should be played.
Witchfire rules certainly do not disagree with me. I have never said PS doesn't roll to hit, I've just stated that the roll to hit is unresolvable and irrelevant which is undeniably true.
What are you talking about other witchfires. I really don't get what you're trying to say.
Lots of people who organise tournaments try to use 6th Ed rules for lots of things largely army selection because they are scared their netlist won't be top tier. 6th Ed doesn't have a baring on 7th but Psychic Shriek worked the same in 6th too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
At any rate, ETC and I have provided a Psychic Shriek that resolves as witchfire.
The solution that you have provided resolves as a malediction.
Check what Psychic Shriek is defined as. (Hint: it's a witchfire). Try again.
I have not provided the solution the rules have provided a solution that resolves if anything more akin to a focussed witchfire than a Malediction. So we can play your made up rules or play by the actual rules like I suggest.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Similarly" carries no weight in that statement. Longhand, it would read "Just like when shooting a weapon." If it aids your comprehension, you can drop "similarly" from that sentence.
Similarly could also refer to the "many have profiles similar to ranged weapons". It is very vague. Yet it is what your entire rules debate relies upon...
If we play by your solution, you cannot resolve a roll to hit and you cannot resolve a roll to wound and so you cannot resolve Psychic Shriek. Tell the opponent to re-roll for his psychic power.
My solution infers the minimum required to have psychic shriek resolve as witchfire. It is defined as witchfire by the rules. GW left out information. If you follow the rules strictly, psychic shriek cannot be resolved because the information needed to resolve it as witchfire has not been provided.
"Similarly" carries no weight in that statement. Longhand, it would read "Just like when shooting a weapon." If it aids your comprehension, you can drop "similarly" from that sentence.
Similarly could also refer to the "many have profiles similar to ranged weapons". It is very vague. Yet it is what your entire rules debate relies upon...
No. It's not vague at all. You are reading it wrong. It's basic English.
If we play by your solution, you cannot resolve a roll to hit and you cannot resolve a roll to wound and so you cannot resolve Psychic Shriek. Tell the opponent to re-roll for his psychic power.
Only if you rule that the game ends if they cast Psychic Shriek? Or indeed if you enfeeble a vehicle or a Libby Dread Ironarms itself. So they might want to keep the power for if they get up on VPs they cast the power and presto game ends. This is your interpretation correct?
Also you keep saying "your solution". Please in future refer to it by RaW as that is what we have proven it is.
My solution infers the minimum required to have psychic shriek resolve as witchfire. It is defined as witchfire by the rules. GW left out information. If you follow the rules strictly, psychic shriek cannot be resolved because the information needed to resolve it as witchfire has not been provided.
Parts don't resolve true but those parts have no effect so it doesn't matter. Your solution is your made up rules. So please clearly mark your posts as HYWPI as I am discussing RaW.
If we play by your solution, you cannot resolve a roll to hit and you cannot resolve a roll to wound and so you cannot resolve Psychic Shriek. Tell the opponent to re-roll for his psychic power.
Only if you rule that the game ends if they cast Psychic Shriek? Or indeed if you enfeeble a vehicle or a Libby Dread Ironarms itself. So they might want to keep the power for if they get up on VPs they cast the power and presto game ends. This is your interpretation correct?
Also you keep saying "my solution". Please in future refer to it by RaW as that is what we have proven it is.
My solution infers the minimum required to have psychic shriek resolve as witchfire. It is defined as witchfire by the rules. GW left out information. If you follow the rules strictly, psychic shriek cannot be resolved because the information needed to resolve it as witchfire has not been provided.
Parts don't resolve true but those parts have no effect so it doesn't matter. Your solution is your made up rules. So please clearly mark your posts as HYWPI as I am discussing RaW.
My solution is RAW. My solution is "resolve it as witchfire"
Your solution is not RAW. Your solution is "ignore the witchfire bit"
If we play by your solution, you cannot resolve a roll to hit and you cannot resolve a roll to wound and so you cannot resolve Psychic Shriek. Tell the opponent to re-roll for his psychic power.
Why does an inability to roll to wound cause an inability to resolve Psychic Shriek? Are you asserting that Psychic Shriek rolls To Wound?
The rules heavily infer that shooting attacks that have more than 1 shot will always have a profile. This means that shooting attacks without a profile are obviously one shot only.
Ok so your solution is RaW? Then please tell me the profile of PS and where you are finding this. Please tell me what links the 3d6-ld wounds effect to a successful to hit roll and where in the rules I find this information.
If we play by your solution, you cannot resolve a roll to hit and you cannot resolve a roll to wound and so you cannot resolve Psychic Shriek. Tell the opponent to re-roll for his psychic power.
Why does an inability to roll to wound cause an inability to resolve Psychic Shriek? Are you asserting that Psychic Shriek rolls To Wound?
I am saying you need to resolve steps 4 and 5 . . .
Spoiler:
The Shooting Sequence
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but
has yet to do so this turn.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models
equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the
target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one
visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in
range, cannot shoot.
4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines
what it must roll in order to hit the target.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the
target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing
weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.
6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties. Any Wounds caused by the firing
unit must now be allocated, one at a time, to the closest model in the target
unit. A model with a Wound allocated to it can take a saving throw (if it has
one) to avoid being wounded. If a model is reduced to 0 Wounds, it is removed
as a casualty. Wounds are then allocated to the next closest model. Continue to
allocate Wounds and take saving throws until all Wounds have been resolved.
7. Select Another Weapon. After resolving all shots from the currently selected
weapon, if the firing unit is equipped with differently named weapons that
have yet to fire, select another weapon and repeat steps 3 to 6.
You only get wounds in step 5 for successful rolls to hit. You only get to resolve Psychic Shriek on successful rolls to hit.
This profile is the minimum required to resolve psychic shriek as witchfire. Notice that I am not saying that Psychic Shriek is requiring a To Wound Roll.
* Instead of a to wound roll, roll 3D6 and subtract the target’s Leadership – the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result. Armour and cover saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by Psychic Shriek.
If we play by your solution, you cannot resolve a roll to hit and you cannot resolve a roll to wound and so you cannot resolve Psychic Shriek. Tell the opponent to re-roll for his psychic power.
Why does an inability to roll to wound cause an inability to resolve Psychic Shriek? Are you asserting that Psychic Shriek rolls To Wound?
I am saying you need to resolve steps 4 and 5 . . .
You only get to step 5 for successful rolls to hit. You only get to resolve Psychic Shriek on successful rolls to hit.
But what rule supports that statement?
This profile is the minimum required to resolve psychic shriek as witchfire. Notice that I am not saying that Psychic Shriek is requiring a To Wound Roll.
* Instead of a to wound roll, roll 3D6 and subtract the target’s Leadership – the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result. Armour and cover saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by Psychic Shriek.
That's a cute profile you completely made up with absolutely no basis in fact. Except the name. And the range. The underlined doesn't exist anywhere in the actual rules though.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the
target.
You are not permitted to skip this step. If you don't roll to wound (or provide a profile that says "instead of a roll to wound") you do not wound the target.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the
target.
You are not permitted to skip this step. If you don't roll to wound (or provide a profile that says "instead of a roll to wound") you do not wound the target.
Correct. The hit does not wound the target.
Psychic Shriek doesn't care.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the
target.
You are not permitted to skip this step. If you don't roll to wound (or provide a profile that says "instead of a roll to wound") you do not wound the target.
Correct. The hit does not wound the target.
Psychic Shriek doesn't care.
You are not permitted to skip steps 4 and 5. You need to resolve step 5. At stake is whether you wound the target. You roll to see IF you wound the target.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the
target.
You are not permitted to skip this step. If you don't roll to wound (or provide a profile that says "instead of a roll to wound") you do not wound the target.
Correct. The hit does not wound the target.
Psychic Shriek doesn't care.
You are not permitted to skip steps 4 and 5. You need to resolve step 5. At stake is whether you wound the target. You roll to see IF you wound the target.
Not true at all.
Step 5 is where you make a To Wound roll. Psychic Shriek does not roll To Wound.
Using terminology correctly is important in any rules discussion.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the
target.
You are not permitted to skip this step. If you don't roll to wound (or provide a profile that says "instead of a roll to wound") you do not wound the target.
AH, you still seem to believe that wounds MUST have a to wound previously for them to happen. That is if course false. See perils, for an example.
Step 5 resolves- we have no hits, and even if we have a hit we have no profile to roll against, so cannot roll to-wound anyway.
I'll go ahead and resolve the power according to its entry, as actual rules tell me to do. You can play made up rules if you wish.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the
target.
You are not permitted to skip this step. If you don't roll to wound (or provide a profile that says "instead of a roll to wound") you do not wound the target.
Correct. The hit does not wound the target.
Psychic Shriek doesn't care.
You are not permitted to skip steps 4 and 5. You need to resolve step 5. At stake is whether you wound the target. You roll to see IF you wound the target.
Not true at all.
Step 5 is where you make a To Wound roll. Psychic Shriek does not roll To Wound.
Using terminology correctly is important in any rules discussion.
Psychic Shriek is witchfire, a shooting attack, so step 5 is required. Please show me where in the rules you are allowed to skip this step.
Also, please show in the rules where you are allowed to auto-hit.
col_impact wrote: Psychic Shriek is witchfire, a shooting attack, so step 5 is required. Please show me where in the rules you are allowed to skip this step.
Also, please show in the rules where you are allowed to auto-hit.
Considering neither of the things you're asking for are things I've asserted, no - I won't show them.
Neither are required.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the
target.
You are not permitted to skip this step. If you don't roll to wound (or provide a profile that says "instead of a roll to wound") you do not wound the target.
AH, you still seem to believe that wounds MUST have a to wound previously for them to happen. That is if course false. See perils, for an example.
Step 5 resolves- we have no hits, and even if we have a hit we have no profile to roll against, so cannot roll to-wound anyway.
I'll go ahead and resolve the power according to its entry, as actual rules tell me to do. You can play made up rules if you wish.
You cannot resolve the power then. You are required to resolve as witchfire, so indicate how you resolve steps 4 and 5.
Yeah I basically agree with everything Nos and Rigeld have repeated as we've gone over this several times now. Do you have any rules to refute the RaW stated or are you sticking to your made up rules = RaW claim or are you know arguing HYWPI?
col_impact wrote: You cannot resolve the power then. You are required to resolve as witchfire, so indicate how you resolve steps 4 and 5.
I roll to hit with zero shots (as I'm not told I have any). I then roll To Wound with all the shots that hit (none did so).
I then roll 3d6 and subtract the target's Leadership (as Psychic Shriek requires me to do) and apply that many wounds to the unit. These wounds ignore armor and cover saves.
col_impact wrote: Psychic Shriek is witchfire, a shooting attack, so step 5 is required. Please show me where in the rules you are allowed to skip this step.
Also, please show in the rules where you are allowed to auto-hit.
Considering neither of the things you're asking for are things I've asserted, no - I won't show them.
Neither are required.
col_impact wrote: Psychic Shriek is witchfire, a shooting attack, so step 5 is required. Please show me where in the rules you are allowed to skip this step.
Also, please show in the rules where you are allowed to auto-hit.
Considering neither of the things you're asking for are things I've asserted, no - I won't show them.
Neither are required.
col_impact wrote: You cannot resolve the power then. You are required to resolve as witchfire, so indicate how you resolve steps 4 and 5.
I roll to hit with zero shots (as I'm not told I have any). I then roll To Wound with all the shots that hit (none did so).
I then roll 3d6 and subtract the target's Leadership (as Psychic Shriek requires me to do) and apply that many wounds to the unit. These wounds ignore armor and cover saves.
What rule did I break?
If a shooting attack does not specify multiple shots it is understood as one shot, per the rules.
col_impact wrote: You cannot resolve the power then. You are required to resolve as witchfire, so indicate how you resolve steps 4 and 5.
I roll to hit with zero shots (as I'm not told I have any). I then roll To Wound with all the shots that hit (none did so).
I then roll 3d6 and subtract the target's Leadership (as Psychic Shriek requires me to do) and apply that many wounds to the unit. These wounds ignore armor and cover saves.
What rule did I break?
If a shooting attack does not specify multiple shots it is understood as one shot, per the rules.
There is literally no rule that says that. Ever. You've invented that.
col_impact wrote: You cannot resolve the power then. You are required to resolve as witchfire, so indicate how you resolve steps 4 and 5.
I roll to hit with zero shots (as I'm not told I have any). I then roll To Wound with all the shots that hit (none did so).
I then roll 3d6 and subtract the target's Leadership (as Psychic Shriek requires me to do) and apply that many wounds to the unit. These wounds ignore armor and cover saves.
What rule did I break?
If a shooting attack does not specify multiple shots it is understood as one shot, per the rules.
There is literally no rule that says that. Ever. You've invented that.
Spoiler:
Number of Shots
Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a
weapon fires is noted after its type.
Spoiler:
ROLL TO HIT
To determine if the firing model has hit its target, roll a D6 for each shot that is in range.
Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons are capable of firing more
than once
Zero is not a vaild option. If it's unstated, it's taken to be one.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the
target.
You are not permitted to skip this step. If you don't roll to wound (or provide a profile that says "instead of a roll to wound") you do not wound the target.
AH, you still seem to believe that wounds MUST have a to wound previously for them to happen. That is if course false. See perils, for an example.
Step 5 resolves- we have no hits, and even if we have a hit we have no profile to roll against, so cannot roll to-wound anyway.
I'll go ahead and resolve the power according to its entry, as actual rules tell me to do. You can play made up rules if you wish.
You cannot resolve the power then. You are required to resolve as witchfire, so indicate how you resolve steps 4 and 5.
We agree you can't resolve steps 4 & 5. So does the game stop there or does it continue with what we can resolve?
Look at a witchfire power that has a profile. The psychic rules that keep being brought up tell you to resolve the power. What about the witchfire powers with a profile tell you to roll to hit or to wound?
col_impact wrote: You cannot resolve the power then. You are required to resolve as witchfire, so indicate how you resolve steps 4 and 5.
I roll to hit with zero shots (as I'm not told I have any). I then roll To Wound with all the shots that hit (none did so).
I then roll 3d6 and subtract the target's Leadership (as Psychic Shriek requires me to do) and apply that many wounds to the unit. These wounds ignore armor and cover saves.
What rule did I break?
If a shooting attack does not specify multiple shots it is understood as one shot, per the rules.
There is literally no rule that says that. Ever. You've invented that.
Spoiler:
Number of Shots
Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a
weapon fires is noted after its type.
Spoiler:
ROLL TO HIT
To determine if the firing model has hit its target, roll a D6 for each shot that is in range.
Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons are capable of firing more
than once
Zero is not a vaild option. If it's unstated, it's taken to be one.
Cite the underlined. Neither of the rules you quoted say that.
Also, neither say that 0 is not a possible option. Indeed - JnixDragon was arguing vehemently that 0 is a valid option at all times. It only works here because we're told (in the first rule you quoted) that the number of shots a weapon fires is noted after its type. And the second rule you quoted doesn't change that.
Those rules are about weapons. Is PS a shooting weapon? This has already been pointed out to you so please don't post intentional lies it does not help the discussion.
Gravmyr wrote: Look at a witchfire power that has a profile. The psychic rules that keep being brought up tell you to resolve the power. What about the witchfire powers with a profile tell you to roll to hit or to wound?
The fact that they have a number of shots listed, and that there are rules governing turning shots into hits into wounds.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the
target.
You are not permitted to skip this step. If you don't roll to wound (or provide a profile that says "instead of a roll to wound") you do not wound the target.
AH, you still seem to believe that wounds MUST have a to wound previously for them to happen. That is if course false. See perils, for an example.
Step 5 resolves- we have no hits, and even if we have a hit we have no profile to roll against, so cannot roll to-wound anyway.
I'll go ahead and resolve the power according to its entry, as actual rules tell me to do. You can play made up rules if you wish.
You cannot resolve the power then. You are required to resolve as witchfire, so indicate how you resolve steps 4 and 5.
We agree you can't resolve steps 4 & 5. So does the game stop there or does it continue with what we can resolve?
To resolve it you have to add "Instead of a roll to wound . . ." so that you get past step 5 for successful hits in step 4.
col_impact wrote: Psychic Shriek is witchfire, a shooting attack, so step 5 is required. Please show me where in the rules you are allowed to skip this step.
Also, please show in the rules where you are allowed to auto-hit.
Considering neither of the things you're asking for are things I've asserted, no - I won't show them.
Neither are required.
You are required to resolve as witchfire.
Yes, and we have done. We don't have a profile, cannot assume one shot. You have no rules, still.
Gravmyr wrote: Look at a witchfire power that has a profile. The psychic rules that keep being brought up tell you to resolve the power. What about the witchfire powers with a profile tell you to roll to hit or to wound?
What do they do if you're not using the shooting rules to resolve their shooting attack?
Psychic Shriek has an effect that is defined and is nothing to do with to hit and to wound rolls. What do you think smite does?
col_impact wrote: You cannot resolve the power then. You are required to resolve as witchfire, so indicate how you resolve steps 4 and 5.
I roll to hit with zero shots (as I'm not told I have any). I then roll To Wound with all the shots that hit (none did so).
I then roll 3d6 and subtract the target's Leadership (as Psychic Shriek requires me to do) and apply that many wounds to the unit. These wounds ignore armor and cover saves.
What rule did I break?
If a shooting attack does not specify multiple shots it is understood as one shot, per the rules.
There is literally no rule that says that. Ever. You've invented that.
Spoiler:
Number of Shots
Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a
weapon fires is noted after its type.
Spoiler:
ROLL TO HIT
To determine if the firing model has hit its target, roll a D6 for each shot that is in range.
Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons are capable of firing more
than once
Zero is not a vaild option. If it's unstated, it's taken to be one.
Cite the underlined. Neither of the rules you quoted say that.
Also, neither say that 0 is not a possible option. Indeed - JnixDragon was arguing vehemently that 0 is a valid option at all times. It only works here because we're told (in the first rule you quoted) that the number of shots a weapon fires is noted after its type. And the second rule you quoted doesn't change that.
If the type is mentioned and no number follows the number is assumed to be 1, per the rules above. A shooting attack with zero shots is not a vaild option. Please show me an example of that.
col_impact wrote: If the type is mentioned and no number follows the number is assumed to be 1, per the rules above. A shooting attack with zero shots is not a vaild option. Please show me an example of that.
The underlined is not actually in any of the rules above.
And I'd love for you to show me the profile that says Psychic Shriek is an Assault type weapon.
To resolve it you have to add "Instead of a roll to wound . . ." so that you get past step 5 for successful hits in step 4.
No that is making rules up. As we can't resolve steps 4 or 5 what happens does the game stop or do we carry on playing? We're talking RaW here not your made up rules.
Another question that must have the SAME answer is: If I cast Enfeeble on a vehicle does the game stop because I can't resolve the -1T or do we carry on playing?
col_impact wrote: If the type is mentioned and no number follows the number is assumed to be 1, per the rules above. A shooting attack with zero shots is not a vaild option. Please show me an example of that.
The underlined is not actually in any of the rules above.
And I'd love for you to show me the profile that says Psychic Shriek is an Assault type weapon.
You can't resolve witchfire for zero shots. The notion is absurd. Provide me with any example of any shooting attack that has zero shots. You are inventing a notion of shooting attacks with zero shots to get Psychic Shriek to work.
col_impact wrote: If the type is mentioned and no number follows the number is assumed to be 1, per the rules above. A shooting attack with zero shots is not a vaild option. Please show me an example of that.
The underlined is not actually in any of the rules above.
And I'd love for you to show me the profile that says Psychic Shriek is an Assault type weapon.
You can't resolve witchfire for zero shots. The notion is absurd. Provide me with any example of any shooting attack that has zero shots. You are inventing a notion of shooting attacks with zero shots to get Psychic Shriek to work.
Except you can. I've shown you how. Psychic Shriek has zero shots. Any witchfire without a profile has zero shots. I'm inventing nothing, I'm showing you - RAW (that means without inventing things like a profile) - how Psychic Shriek works.
If you have to invent rules (as you have, repeatedly) it can't be a RAW standpoint.
To resolve it you have to add "Instead of a roll to wound . . ." so that you get past step 5 for successful hits in step 4.
No that is making rules up. As we can't resolve steps 4 or 5 what happens does the game stop or do we carry on playing? We're talking RaW here not your made up rules.
Another question that must have the SAME answer is: If I cast Enfeeble on a vehicle does the game stop because I can't resolve the -1T or do we carry on playing?
Then Psychic Shriek fizzles. Since there is missing info, it does not resolve RAW by itself. My solution is the minimal required.
Sure cast enfeeble on a vehicle. Since it doesn't have a T characteristic to modify then nothing happens. It fizzles.
col_impact wrote: If the type is mentioned and no number follows the number is assumed to be 1, per the rules above. A shooting attack with zero shots is not a vaild option. Please show me an example of that.
The underlined is not actually in any of the rules above.
And I'd love for you to show me the profile that says Psychic Shriek is an Assault type weapon.
You can't resolve witchfire for zero shots. The notion is absurd. Provide me with any example of any shooting attack that has zero shots. You are inventing a notion of shooting attacks with zero shots to get Psychic Shriek to work.
Except you can. I've shown you how. Psychic Shriek has zero shots. Any witchfire without a profile has zero shots. I'm inventing nothing, I'm showing you - RAW (that means without inventing things like a profile) - how Psychic Shriek works.
If you have to invent rules (as you have, repeatedly) it can't be a RAW standpoint.
LOL, you have to show some other example besides Psychic Shriek. You simply cannot resolve a shooting attack with zero shots. the sequence does not make sense for zero shots.
If Psychic Shriek is your only case for a zero shot shooting attack, then you have no outside support for a notion of a zero shot shooting attack, and are making up rules and justification where there is simply a missing profile.
col_impact wrote: If the type is mentioned and no number follows the number is assumed to be 1, per the rules above. A shooting attack with zero shots is not a vaild option. Please show me an example of that.
The underlined is not actually in any of the rules above.
And I'd love for you to show me the profile that says Psychic Shriek is an Assault type weapon.
You can't resolve witchfire for zero shots. The notion is absurd. Provide me with any example of any shooting attack that has zero shots. You are inventing a notion of shooting attacks with zero shots to get Psychic Shriek to work.
Except you can. I've shown you how. Psychic Shriek has zero shots. Any witchfire without a profile has zero shots. I'm inventing nothing, I'm showing you - RAW (that means without inventing things like a profile) - how Psychic Shriek works.
If you have to invent rules (as you have, repeatedly) it can't be a RAW standpoint.
LOL, you have to show some other example besides Psychic Shriek. You simply cannot resolve a shooting attack with zero shots. the sequence does not make sense for zero shots.
If Psychic Shriek is your only case for a zero shot shooting attack, then you have no outside support for a notion of a zero shot shooting attack, and are making up rules and justification where there is simply a missing profile.
OK, question then.
I have a squad of Tac Marines, one with a flamer, one with a plasma cannon. They target a vehicle that is 30" away (pretty sure that is in range for a plasma cannon). The bearer rolls a 1 for Gets Hot. What happens now, since we are part way through the Shooting Attack?
col_impact wrote: If the type is mentioned and no number follows the number is assumed to be 1, per the rules above. A shooting attack with zero shots is not a vaild option. Please show me an example of that.
The underlined is not actually in any of the rules above.
And I'd love for you to show me the profile that says Psychic Shriek is an Assault type weapon.
You can't resolve witchfire for zero shots. The notion is absurd. Provide me with any example of any shooting attack that has zero shots. You are inventing a notion of shooting attacks with zero shots to get Psychic Shriek to work.
Except you can. I've shown you how. Psychic Shriek has zero shots. Any witchfire without a profile has zero shots. I'm inventing nothing, I'm showing you - RAW (that means without inventing things like a profile) - how Psychic Shriek works.
If you have to invent rules (as you have, repeatedly) it can't be a RAW standpoint.
LOL, you have to show some other example besides Psychic Shriek. You simply cannot resolve a shooting attack with zero shots. the sequence does not make sense for zero shots.
If Psychic Shriek is your only case for a zero shot shooting attack, then you have no outside support for a notion of a zero shot shooting attack, and are making up rules and justification where there is simply a missing profile.
OK, question then.
I have a squad of Tac Marines, one with a flamer, one with a plasma cannon. They target a vehicle that is 30" away (pretty sure that is in range for a plasma cannon). The bearer rolls a 1 for Gets Hot. What happens now, since we are part way through the Shooting Attack?
Spoiler:
Gets Hot
Some weapons are fuelled by unstable power sources and risk overheating with each
shot – often to the detriment of the wielder.
When firing a weapon that Gets Hot, roll To Hit as normal. For each To Hit roll of 1, the
firing model immediately suffers a Wound (armour or invulnerable saves can be taken) –
this Wound cannot be allocated to any other model in the unit. A character cannot make a
Look Out, Sir attempt to avoid a Wound caused by the Gets Hot special rule. A vehicle
instead rolls a D6 for each roll of a 1 to hit. On a roll of a 1, 2 or 3 it suffers a glancing hit.
Happyjew wrote:
I have a squad of Tac Marines, one with a flamer, one with a plasma cannon. They target a vehicle that is 30" away (pretty sure that is in range for a plasma cannon). The bearer rolls a 1 for Gets Hot. What happens now, since we are part way through the Shooting Attack?
Spoiler:
Gets Hot
Some weapons are fuelled by unstable power sources and risk overheating with each
shot – often to the detriment of the wielder.
When firing a weapon that Gets Hot, roll To Hit as normal. For each To Hit roll of 1, the
firing model immediately suffers a Wound (armour or invulnerable saves can be taken) –
this Wound cannot be allocated to any other model in the unit. A character cannot make a
Look Out, Sir attempt to avoid a Wound caused by the Gets Hot special rule. A vehicle
instead rolls a D6 for each roll of a 1 to hit. On a roll of a 1, 2 or 3 it suffers a glancing hit.
Indeed, they are often referred to as psychic shooting attacks, and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons.
Spoiler:
Just like when shooting a weapon, a Psyker must be able to see the target unit (or target point) and cannot be locked in combat if he wishes to manifest a witchfire power.
Spoiler:
Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is has the Blast special rule, in which case it scatters as described in the Blast special rule, or it is a Template weapon, which hit automatically.
Spoiler:
Psykers can make Snap Shots in the Psychic phase with witchfire powers in the same way as with other shooting weapons.
That last one is the most solid - "as with other shooting weapons" means that witchfires are shooting weapons.
So please, support your argument with actual rules - that Witchfires are not weapons and that witchfires with profiles can't use the shooting rules to resolve.
To resolve it you have to add "Instead of a roll to wound . . ." so that you get past step 5 for successful hits in step 4.
No that is making rules up. As we can't resolve steps 4 or 5 what happens does the game stop or do we carry on playing? We're talking RaW here not your made up rules.
Another question that must have the SAME answer is: If I cast Enfeeble on a vehicle does the game stop because I can't resolve the -1T or do we carry on playing?
Then Psychic Shriek fizzles. Since there is missing info, it does not resolve RAW by itself. My solution is the minimal required.
Sure cast enfeeble on a vehicle. Since it doesn't have a T characteristic to modify then nothing happens. It fizzles.
Where do I find RaW definition of fizzles? Please answer the question does the game stop or continue?
Happyjew wrote:
I have a squad of Tac Marines, one with a flamer, one with a plasma cannon. They target a vehicle that is 30" away (pretty sure that is in range for a plasma cannon). The bearer rolls a 1 for Gets Hot. What happens now, since we are part way through the Shooting Attack?
Spoiler:
Gets Hot
Some weapons are fuelled by unstable power sources and risk overheating with each
shot – often to the detriment of the wielder.
When firing a weapon that Gets Hot, roll To Hit as normal. For each To Hit roll of 1, the
firing model immediately suffers a Wound (armour or invulnerable saves can be taken) –
this Wound cannot be allocated to any other model in the unit. A character cannot make a
Look Out, Sir attempt to avoid a Wound caused by the Gets Hot special rule. A vehicle
instead rolls a D6 for each roll of a 1 to hit. On a roll of a 1, 2 or 3 it suffers a glancing hit.
To resolve it you have to add "Instead of a roll to wound . . ." so that you get past step 5 for successful hits in step 4.
No that is making rules up. As we can't resolve steps 4 or 5 what happens does the game stop or do we carry on playing? We're talking RaW here not your made up rules.
Another question that must have the SAME answer is: If I cast Enfeeble on a vehicle does the game stop because I can't resolve the -1T or do we carry on playing?
Then Psychic Shriek fizzles. Since there is missing info, it does not resolve RAW by itself. My solution is the minimal required.
Sure cast enfeeble on a vehicle. Since it doesn't have a T characteristic to modify then nothing happens. It fizzles.
Where do I find RaW definition of fizzles? Please answer the question does the game stop or continue?
Which then leads to a shooting attack with 0 shots. Do you agree?
You roll a 1. The Roll To Hit auto-fails. You apply the Gets Hot Rule. It does not count as a hit on your target unit. Where do you get a shooting attack with 0 shots out of that?
Which then leads to a shooting attack with 0 shots. Do you agree?
You roll a 1. The Roll To Hit auto-fails. You apply the Gets Hot Rule. It does not count as a hit on your target unit. Where do you get a shooting attack with 0 shots out of that?
You quoted the wrong rule. You should've quoted this (since the question was about a plasma cannon):
Spoiler:
Gets Hot and Weapons that do not roll To Hit
Weapons that do not roll To Hit (such as Blast weapons) must roll a D6 for each shot immediately before firing. On a 2+, the shot is resolved as normal. For each roll of a 1, the weapon Gets Hot; that shot is not fired and the firing model immediately suffers a single Wound (armour saves or invulnerable saves can be taken) – this Wound cannot be allocated to any other model in the unit. A character cannot make a Look Out, Sir attempt to avoid a Wound caused by the Gets Hot special rule. A vehicle instead suffers a glancing hit on a further roll of a 1, 2 or 3.
I underlined the rule that makes it a Shooting Attack with zero shots.
Which then leads to a shooting attack with 0 shots. Do you agree?
You roll a 1. The Roll To Hit auto-fails. You apply the Gets Hot Rule. It does not count as a hit on your target unit. Where do you get a shooting attack with 0 shots out of that?
You quoted the wrong rule. You should've quoted this (since the question was about a plasma cannon):
Spoiler:
Gets Hot and Weapons that do not roll To Hit
Weapons that do not roll To Hit (such as Blast weapons) must roll a D6 for each shot immediately before firing. On a 2+, the shot is resolved as normal. For each roll of a 1, the weapon Gets Hot; that shot is not fired and the firing model immediately suffers a single Wound (armour saves or invulnerable saves can be taken) – this Wound cannot be allocated to any other model in the unit. A character cannot make a Look Out, Sir attempt to avoid a Wound caused by the Gets Hot special rule. A vehicle instead suffers a glancing hit on a further roll of a 1, 2 or 3.
I underlined the rule that makes it a Shooting Attack with zero shots.
Blasts and Templates have their own rules for getting through the shooting sequence per their entries in the BRB. Psychic shriek is not a blast or template. Moreover, your example doesn't work. The shot is not fired.
Gets Hot and Weapons that do not roll To Hit
Weapons that do not roll To Hit (such as Blast weapons) must roll a D6 for each shot immediately before firing. On a 2+, the shot is resolved as normal. For each roll of a 1, the weapon Gets Hot; that shot is not fired and the firing model immediately suffers a single Wound (armour saves or invulnerable saves can be taken) – this Wound cannot be allocated to any other model in the unit. A character cannot make a Look Out, Sir attempt to avoid a Wound caused by the Gets Hot special rule. A vehicle instead suffers a glancing hit on a further roll of a 1, 2 or 3.
I underlined the rule that makes it a Shooting Attack with zero shots.
Spoiler:
That's not a shooting attack with zero shots, that's a failed shooting attack. If it had ZERO shots you would roll no dice for get's hot.
Gets Hot and Weapons that do not roll To Hit
Weapons that do not roll To Hit (such as Blast weapons) must roll a D6 for each shot immediately before firing. On a 2+, the shot is resolved as normal. For each roll of a 1, the weapon Gets Hot; that shot is not fired and the firing model immediately suffers a single Wound (armour saves or invulnerable saves can be taken) – this Wound cannot be allocated to any other model in the unit. A character cannot make a Look Out, Sir attempt to avoid a Wound caused by the Gets Hot special rule. A vehicle instead suffers a glancing hit on a further roll of a 1, 2 or 3.
I underlined the rule that makes it a Shooting Attack with zero shots.
Spoiler:
That's not a shooting attack with zero shots, that's a failed shooting attack. If it had ZERO shots you would roll no dice for get's hot.
It's a Shooting Attack. With a single shot. Agreed?
The underlined rule explicitly says the shot is not fired. Agreed?
So we have a Shooting Attack where the only shot wasn't fired. Agreed?
So it's Shooting Attack with zero shots.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
col_impact wrote: Blasts and Templates have their own rules for getting through the shooting sequence per their entries in the BRB. Psychic shriek is not a blast or template. Moreover, your example doesn't work. The shot is not fired.
The only difference is the lack of a roll To Hit (they scatter instead).
No, Psychic Shriek isn't a Blast or Template - but that's not what you asked for. You asked for, and I'll quote, "Provide me with any example of any shooting attack that has zero shots"
Job done. Now, can you provide any actual rules supporting your argument? I mean - all I've done is post rules supporting mine and all you've done is call the idea "absurd" which, as we both know, means nothing.
As you so kindly spelled out witchfire powers are weapons which then means that you use the rules in the weapon section telling you the number of shots that are fired, pg 40. Single shot.
Gravmyr wrote: As you so kindly spelled out witchfire powers are weapons which then means that you use the rules in the weapon section telling you the number of shots that are fired, pg 40. Single shot.
Except that's not what that rule actually says. Feel free to quote it and prove me wrong.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
col_impact wrote: You guys are going to have to prove in the rules that zero shot shooting attacks exist.
I just did. Can you prove it wrong?
In addition - how many shots does Psychic Shriek have? Quote a rule defining that. The burden is actually on you to prove that shooting attacks must contain a number of shots.
BRBpg 40 wrote:Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a weapon fires is noted after its type.
BRBpg 32 wrote:Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons are capable of firing more than once, as we will explain in more detail later.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Does psychic shriek state to fires more than one shot?
Gravmyr wrote: As you so kindly spelled out witchfire powers are weapons which then means that you use the rules in the weapon section telling you the number of shots that are fired, pg 40. Single shot.
Except that's not what that rule actually says. Feel free to quote it and prove me wrong.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
col_impact wrote: You guys are going to have to prove in the rules that zero shot shooting attacks exist.
I just did. Can you prove it wrong?
In addition - how many shots does Psychic Shriek have? Quote a rule defining that. The burden is actually on you to prove that shooting attacks must contain a number of shots.
LOL, that's not a zero shot shooting attack. The Gets Hot aborts the shot. It does not continue on to its target.
I provided rules that indicate one is assumed unless "multiple" is specified. Further there are no weapon profiles that say "Assault 0" or "Heavy 0". If a profile says just "Heavy" then "Heavy (1)" is implied per the rules.
I am sure if zero shot shooting attacks are a thing and not some fiction you are cooking up then you should have no trouble finding a weapon profile with something like Ordinance 0.
Where do I find RaW definition of fizzles? Please answer the question does the game stop or continue?
It has no effect.
You do know you've just agreed with my interpretation right? You've just stated that unresolvable action = no effect. Which is what we've been saying all along.
Glad you're finally on board. Your concession is accepted.
Where do I find RaW definition of fizzles? Please answer the question does the game stop or continue?
It has no effect.
You do know you've just agreed with my interpretation right? You've just stated that unresolvable action = no effect. Which is what we've been saying all along.
Glad you're finally on board. Your concession is accepted.
Yup, feel free to cast psychic shriek and have it do absolutely nothing.
It's a Shooting Attack. With a single shot. Agreed?
The underlined rule explicitly says the shot is not fired. Agreed?
So we have a Shooting Attack where the only shot wasn't fired. Agreed?
So it's Shooting Attack with zero shots.
I have a gun with a single bullet.
I put it in my pocket without discharging it.
No one would call that a Zero Shot shooting attack.
I have a gun with a single bullet.
It jams while attempting to discharging it.
No one would call that a Zero Shot shooting attack.
A failed attemtp to fire indeed, but not a zero shot shooting attack.
Where do I find RaW definition of fizzles? Please answer the question does the game stop or continue?
It has no effect.
You do know you've just agreed with my interpretation right? You've just stated that unresolvable action = no effect. Which is what we've been saying all along.
Glad you're finally on board. Your concession is accepted.
Yup, feel free to cast psychic shriek and have it do absolutely nothing.
But the game continues right? So you have to take the 3d6-ld wounds. Or does the game stop?
Where do I find RaW definition of fizzles? Please answer the question does the game stop or continue?
It has no effect.
You do know you've just agreed with my interpretation right? You've just stated that unresolvable action = no effect. Which is what we've been saying all along.
Glad you're finally on board. Your concession is accepted.
Yup, feel free to cast psychic shriek and have it do absolutely nothing.
But the game continues right? So you have to take the 3d6-ld wounds. Or does the game stop?
Psychic shriek does nothing. No wounds are taken. The game continues.
Except the psychic power rules tells us to resolve, and the resolution requires rolling the dice. In all you irrelevant eir ambling you still cannot draw a link between rolling to hit and the resolution of the power. Raw you remain completely in error.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Except the psychic power rules tells us to resolve, and the resolution requires rolling the dice. In all you irrelevant eir ambling you still cannot draw a link between rolling to hit and the resolution of the power. Raw you remain completely in error.
Your approach - Come up with a fiction of a zero shot shooting attack to allow you to bypass the requirements of witchfire. Do absurd things like roll 0 dice.
My approach - Resolve as a witchfire shooting attack. Roll to hit against your BS. If successful resolve the effect of Psychic Shriek.
BAO, NOVA, ETC all share my approach.
You might be a rules lawyer if . . . .
you invent things like "zero shot shooting attack" to bend rules in your favor.
Side Note:I still don't get why people try to compare enfeeble to psychic shriek in this thread. It works on vehicles. You can reduce their 0 toughness to -1, but that does nothing to a vehicle, however a walker will still lose -1 strength. I don't see how relevant this is to the discussion.
Whacked wrote: Side Note:I still don't get why people try to compare enfeeble to psychic shriek in this thread. It works on vehicles. You can reduce their 0 toughness to -1, but that does nothing to a vehicle, however a walker will still lose -1 strength. I don't see how relevant this is to the discussion.
Where do you see a Toughness characteristic on a vehicle?
Col_impact - nope, not my approach. My approach is to point out your lack of rules denying the resolution of non-to-wound effects on a missed to-hit, and pointing out that you still continue to make up concepts that flat out don't exist - like needing a to-wound before you can get wounds.
I don't give a fig what house rules Bao et sl may choose to use. The actual rules are something very different.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Col_impact - nope, not my approach. My approach is to point out your lack of rules denying the resolution of non-to-wound effects on a missed to-hit, and pointing out that you still continue to make up concepts that flat out don't exist - like needing a to-wound before you can get wounds.
I don't give a fig what house rules Bao et sl may choose to use. The actual rules are something very different.
Spoiler:
4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines
what it must roll in order to hit the target.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the target.
The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing
weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.
Either you can't resolve the above and psychic shriek does no wounds or you add "Instead of rolling to wound, roll 3D6 and subtract the
target’s Leadership – the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result.
Armour and cover saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by Psychic Shriek."
Citing that you can resolve a psychic power without rolling to hit is the same as saying you don't need to roll to hit for any witchfire. They require a to hit roll being witchfire powers, you cannot ommit that required RAW for some and not others based on your personal whim as there is definately no wording anywhere that states psychic shriek may do so.
which is wrong.
there is no rule which allows you to resolve psychic shriek without rolling to hit.
There is no RAW for permission to use any attack during any phase that requires a to hit roll, ignore the roll, and still resolve the effect.
not rolling and missing and trying to resolve the effect are the same as ignoring the roll.
at this point this thread has been going pages now discussing not the topic.
blaktoof wrote: Citing that you can resolve a psychic power without rolling to hit is the same as saying you don't need to roll to hit for any witchfire.
No, it's not. Stop with this fiction. It's been proven wrong multiple times already.
BRBpg 40 wrote:Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a weapon fires is noted after its type.
BRBpg 32 wrote:Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons are capable of firing more than once, as we will explain in more detail later.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Does psychic shriek state to fires more than one shot?
What is Psychic Shrieks type? You must be able to cite it to be able to prove your point. Remember - those rules deal with profiles something PS is decidedly lacking.
blaktoof wrote: Citing that you can resolve a psychic power without rolling to hit is the same as saying you don't need to roll to hit for any witchfire.
No, it's not. Stop with this fiction. It's been proven wrong multiple times already.
BRBpg 40 wrote:Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a weapon fires is noted after its type.
BRBpg 32 wrote:Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons are capable of firing more than once, as we will explain in more detail later.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Does psychic shriek state to fires more than one shot?
What is Psychic Shrieks type? You must be able to cite it to be able to prove your point. Remember - those rules deal with profiles something PS is decidedly lacking.
Lol, are you still trying to maintain that zero shot shooting attacks exist? I thought we put that fiction to rest.
Psychic shriek does nothing. No wounds are taken. The game continues.
Sorry but that is simply not an option. The rules require we resolve the power. If you are stating that unresolvable action means nothing happens and we continue with the game then the next thing we must do is the 3d6-ld wounds. Either the game continues or it freezes at the unresolvable action. If it continues it continues immediately with the next resolvable action unrelated to the unresolvable one. You have no more permission to skip the 3d6-ld wounds than you have the rest of that player turn or the rest of the player turns. You have conceded by claiming this twice now.
Citing that you can resolve a psychic power without rolling to hit is the same as saying you don't need to roll to hit for any witchfire. They require a to hit roll being witchfire powers, you cannot ommit that required RAW for some and not others based on your personal whim as there is definately no wording anywhere that states psychic shriek may do so.
This has been explained to you before so why bring it up? Yes you can not roll to hit with say Smite but that means you don't get to make to wound rolls for Smite either as to wound rolls are dependent on successful to hit rolls. Smite gives us no other instructions to have any other effect so not rolling to hit for it prevents it having any effect. Note how NOTHING in PS is dependent on successful to hit rolls.
there is no rule which allows you to resolve psychic shriek without rolling to hit.
There is no RAW for permission to use any attack during any phase that requires a to hit roll, ignore the roll, and still resolve the effect.
not rolling and missing and trying to resolve the effect are the same as ignoring the roll.
First sentence is correct. Psychic Shriek and Focussed Witchfires disagree with the 2nd sentence. Though now largely irrelevant Njal used to have a shooting attack that effected a unit whether you hit or missed it had a profile so you only got to roll to wound if you hit but the secondary effect applied whether you hit or not (from memory it forced a unit to move as if in DT), this was in the old FAQ so it is not like nothing has ever worked this way before.
The final sentence has no basis in the rules at all. It is simply you putting your assumptions in so that you can make the power work the way you want it to.
at this point this thread has been going pages now discussing not the topic.
Once again you know you've lost so you post a bunch of stuff you know to be untrue and ask for the thread to be closed in an attempt to avoid perceived humiliation. Don't worry now one thinks less of you for getting this rule wrong and admitting that will actually make us think more of you.
I mean Col_impact has conceded, this post feels like you're there just concede the RaW has been explained surely you must understand it by now or why post stuff that has already been debunked repeatedly?
nosferatu1001 wrote: Col_impact - nope, not my approach. My approach is to point out your lack of rules denying the resolution of non-to-wound effects on a missed to-hit, and pointing out that you still continue to make up concepts that flat out don't exist - like needing a to-wound before you can get wounds.
I don't give a fig what house rules Bao et sl may choose to use. The actual rules are something very different.
Spoiler:
4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines
what it must roll in order to hit the target.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the target.
The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing
weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.
Either you can't resolve the above and psychic shriek does no wounds or you add "Instead of rolling to wound, roll 3D6 and subtract the
target’s Leadership – the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result.
Armour and cover saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by Psychic Shriek."
The abyssal staff follows this kind of template.
How many shots were fired? None. I have rolled a d6 for each shot fired - check
How many hit? None. I have complied with step 5
You resolve the power, which gives a method for inflicting wounds. Maybe you can read them this time, instead of posting rules that gave no bearing..
Rolling to-wound is NOT the only way to cause wounds. This has been proven. Your inability to counter this is telling.
Psychic shriek does nothing. No wounds are taken. The game continues.
Sorry but that is simply not an option. The rules require we resolve the power. If you are stating that unresolvable action means nothing happens and we continue with the game then the next thing we must do is the 3d6-ld wounds. Either the game continues or it freezes at the unresolvable action. If it continues it continues immediately with the next resolvable action unrelated to the unresolvable one. You have no more permission to skip the 3d6-ld wounds than you have the rest of that player turn or the rest of the player turns. You have conceded by claiming this twice now.
Citing that you can resolve a psychic power without rolling to hit is the same as saying you don't need to roll to hit for any witchfire. They require a to hit roll being witchfire powers, you cannot ommit that required RAW for some and not others based on your personal whim as there is definately no wording anywhere that states psychic shriek may do so.
This has been explained to you before so why bring it up? Yes you can not roll to hit with say Smite but that means you don't get to make to wound rolls for Smite either as to wound rolls are dependent on successful to hit rolls. Smite gives us no other instructions to have any other effect so not rolling to hit for it prevents it having any effect. Note how NOTHING in PS is dependent on successful to hit rolls.
there is no rule which allows you to resolve psychic shriek without rolling to hit.
There is no RAW for permission to use any attack during any phase that requires a to hit roll, ignore the roll, and still resolve the effect.
not rolling and missing and trying to resolve the effect are the same as ignoring the roll.
First sentence is correct. Psychic Shriek and Focussed Witchfires disagree with the 2nd sentence. Though now largely irrelevant Njal used to have a shooting attack that effected a unit whether you hit or missed it had a profile so you only got to roll to wound if you hit but the secondary effect applied whether you hit or not (from memory it forced a unit to move as if in DT), this was in the old FAQ so it is not like nothing has ever worked this way before.
The final sentence has no basis in the rules at all. It is simply you putting your assumptions in so that you can make the power work the way you want it to.
at this point this thread has been going pages now discussing not the topic.
Once again you know you've lost so you post a bunch of stuff you know to be untrue and ask for the thread to be closed in an attempt to avoid perceived humiliation. Don't worry now one thinks less of you for getting this rule wrong and admitting that will actually make us think more of you.
I mean Col_impact has conceded, this post feels like you're there just concede the RaW has been explained surely you must understand it by now or why post stuff that has already been debunked repeatedly?
psychic shriek does not state it gets to ignore the required to hit roll, and the lack of a standard shooting profile is not permission to ignore something that is required.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Col_impact - nope, not my approach. My approach is to point out your lack of rules denying the resolution of non-to-wound effects on a missed to-hit, and pointing out that you still continue to make up concepts that flat out don't exist - like needing a to-wound before you can get wounds.
I don't give a fig what house rules Bao et sl may choose to use. The actual rules are something very different.
Spoiler:
4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines
what it must roll in order to hit the target.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the target.
The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing
weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.
Either you can't resolve the above and psychic shriek does no wounds or you add "Instead of rolling to wound, roll 3D6 and subtract the
target’s Leadership – the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result.
Armour and cover saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by Psychic Shriek."
The abyssal staff follows this kind of template.
How many shots were fired? None. I have rolled a d6 for each shot fired - check
How many hit? None. I have complied with step 5
You resolve the power, which gives a method for inflicting wounds. Maybe you can read them this time, instead of posting rules that gave no bearing..
Rolling to-wound is NOT the only way to cause wounds. This has been proven. Your inability to counter this is telling.
This sounds like you are relying on Psychic Shriek being a zero shot shooting attack, which we proved was a fiction that you all made up. There is no such thing as a zero shot shooting attack. If you disagree on that, prove me wrong.
Witchfire requires you to roll a hit. If it succeeds you are required to roll a To Wound Roll. You need to succeed at the To Wound Roll if the hit is going to cause wounds. This is where the lack of a weapon profile prevents you from doing the requisite steps. You are missing the S of the weapon to complete the To Wound Roll. If you can't do the requisite steps then psychic shriek does absolutely nothing. You need to infer a weapon profile for Psychic Shriek to resolve witchfire. See the profile I inferred for the minimum profile that will allow you to resolve witchfire. If someone can infer a better minimum profile feel free to contribute to the thread.
@flingitnow: see my answer above as it also answers your concerns. You can't skip requisite steps and have a psychic power resolve. If a power cannot be resolved it freezes as unresolvable and does absolutely nothing. Either that or the game freezes at that point and cannot be resolved. This is fine too. That just leads to future games where Psychic Shriek is banned at the outset as broken.
psychic shriek does not state it gets to ignore the required to hit roll, and the lack of a standard shooting profile is not permission to ignore something that is required.
What is your point? Argue against the points raised or concede.
see my answer above as it also answers your concerns. You can't skip requisite steps and have a psychic power resolve. If a power cannot be resolved it freezes as unresolvable and does absolutely nothing.
Then the game freezes. You can't jump back into the game at a random point either at the next unresolvable point ornot at all. Which is it?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Witchfire requires you to roll a hit. If it succeeds you are required to roll a To Wound Roll. You need to succeed at the To Wound Roll if the hit is going to cause wounds.
This is of course correct. No one is saying any different. Psychic Shriek still does 3d6-ld wounds as this effect is not tied to the to hit or to wounds rolls.
Then the game freezes. You can't jump back into the game at a random point either at the next unresolvable point ornot at all. Which is it?
Fine then the game freezes. This is an acceptable answer.
But for a less nihilistic answer.
You are flat out wrong FlingItNow. You don't get to resolve powers without performing all requisite steps. If you have no Warp Charges you don't get to skip all of that and jump to the text of Psychic Shriek and have it resolve. The power becomes frozen as unresolvable and does absolutely nothing. You are not permitted to skip steps and jump ahead. You can either leave that power behind and continue with the game or argue with your opponent that the game has been frozen.
This is a Recap of your argument FlingItNow
Spoiler:
Psychic Shriek is broken.
Because it's broken I can't resolve it as witchfire which is required by the rules.
I can't resolve a To Hit Roll or a To Wound Roll, which are required by the rules.
Luckily though, because it's broken the game will freeze at their resolution so I can magically skip these steps and magically jump to the resolution text of Psychic Shriek and resolve the power anyway.
This is a ridiculous line of argumentation. You are basically admitting Psychic Shriek is broken beyond repair and then leveraging that brokenness to allow you to skip required steps and have it work magically.
I have permission to cause wounds through the 3d6. Only if I want to cause wounds from a to wound roll do I need a to hit first
We have shown there is no link, no rules requirement, NOTHING, Supporting your concept that a to wound is required before you can cause wounds This completely made up idea of yours, totally unsupported, must be known to you by this point, as you are unwilling to debate it.
raw the roll to hit is required, but raw even if you know how many dice to roll, it is NOT required for you to be bow to cause wounds
This is proven. You have no rebuttal to this. Mark your posts "HYWPI" as per the tenets of this forum.
I have permission to cause wounds through the 3d6. Only if I want to cause wounds from a to wound roll do I need a to hit first
We have shown there is no link, no rules requirement, NOTHING, Supporting your concept that a to wound is required before you can cause wounds This completely made up idea of yours, totally unsupported, must be known to you by this point, as you are unwilling to debate it.
raw the roll to hit is required, but raw even if you know how many dice to roll, it is NOT required for you to be bow to cause wounds
This is proven. You have no rebuttal to this. Mark your posts "HYWPI" as per the tenets of this forum.
Wrong Wrong Wrong.
Psychic Shriek is a shooting attack that is comprised of a shot fired at a target unit controlled by the opponent.
Spoiler:
4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines what it must roll in order to hit the target.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.
Per the rules, if the shot hits and does not succeed at rolling to wound, that shot does not wound the target.
Please indicate how you resolve the To Wound Roll without a profile.
You are not allowed to skip steps 4 and 5. Please show explicitly how you satisfy them.
Psychic Shriek has no effect if you can't satisfy all requisite steps.
If you wish to treat it as a Special Rule why does it not contain the wording: If one or more Hits....
That is what tells us that the Special Rule triggers only on successful To Hit Rolls, and it also has the added restriction of allowing multiple weapons with to only ever trigger the Special Rule once. Lacking this clause, or any other instruction to even suggest the rest of the 'Special Rule' is somehow dependant on the Shot being successful, this Rule would trigger in any situation where it has been Evoked. As the powers only set of instructions, it really should have a profile and the one or more wording, there is nothing within that can tie it's Resolution to any Step in the Shooting Sequence. It will be resolved automatically regardless of outcome....
Something I keep pondering over the shooting sequence: Step 3 allows me to select a Weapon Group and then select Models I wish not to fire. This is where I expected to find the most support for the concept of 'there must be at least 1 shot' but the choice of words within actually support the opposite. Instead of telling us to select which models we wish to fire, which can be debated to select at least one model has to be selected which would then boil down into a Rule as Intended debate as to what the Authors might of wanted us to do at that step, it tells me to chose the ones I wish not to fire. This makes it just as easy to select all of them as there is selecting none, and this allows us to enter into Step 4 while still having 0 Shots generated at a previous stage.
If I have not picked up any dice during Step 4 how many have I rolled? Is that number of dice equal to the number of shots that where fired, as required by the Rules?
Steps 5 has to do with Successful results in a previous step or are you saying we have broken the Rules of the Game, which is instant forfeit in my books, any time we have 0 successful To Hits or To Wounds?
Step 7 has some very unusual conflicting Rules: Repeat this process until you have selected and resolved attacks from all the weapons in the firing unit
If it wasn't for the ability to select 0 Models to fire, the above would make it so we had to resolve at least one shot from every weapon in the Unit. Now to be fair it does go on to give us a choice not to fire weapons, but yet again this is a choice to select no as an option, instead of a requirement to have at-least one Yes. Sure, it would be a complete waste of time to nominate a unit to fire, choose a legal target and then state you are firing 0 Models but I have yet to see anything more then 'A Shooting Attack must have one Shot at least, that is common sense!' to depute the order of operations set out by the Shooting Sequence itself.
It is not just possible to have a 0 Result somewhere in the sequence, it is likely to occur and the system is designed to still allow a successful Resolution in these situations....
Man, some of the suggestions in here are down right stupid as hell. Apparently 40k can freeze like it is some sort of program huh?
I target the CCB with this spell. It hits, I choose to take the hits on the chariot, it has no leadership, nothing happens, game goes on. You can't lock up a freaking tabletop game, worst case you roll a d6, shake hands like normal people and keep playing.
If the game could lock up, people would assault terrain, and do all other sorts of stupid stuff that are not in the rulebook and lock up tournaments. They don't, it doesn't, this thread has fallen victim to some very powerful trolling.
JinxDragon wrote: If you wish to treat it as a Special Rule why does it not contain the wording:
If one or more Hits....
That is what tells us that the Special Rule triggers only on successful To Hit Rolls, and it also has the added restriction of allowing multiple weapons with to only ever trigger the Special Rule once. Lacking this clause, or any other instruction to even suggest the rest of the 'Special Rule' is somehow dependant on the Shot being successful, this Rule would trigger in any situation where it has been Evoked. As the powers only set of instructions, it really should have a profile and the one or more wording, there is nothing within that can tie it's Resolution to any Step in the Shooting Sequence. It will be resolved automatically regardless of outcome....
Something I keep pondering over the shooting sequence:
Step 3 allows me to select a Weapon Group and then select Models I wish not to fire. This is where I expected to find the most support for the concept of 'there must be at least 1 shot' but the choice of words within actually support the opposite. Instead of telling us to select which models we wish to fire, which can be debated to select at least one model has to be selected which would then boil down into a Rule as Intended debate as to what the Authors might of wanted us to do at that step, it tells me to chose the ones I wish not to fire. This makes it just as easy to select all of them as there is selecting none, and this allows us to enter into Step 4 while still having 0 Shots generated at a previous stage.
If I have not picked up any dice during Step 4 how many have I rolled?
Is that number of dice equal to the number of shots that where fired, as required by the Rules?
Steps 5 has to do with Successful results in a previous step
or are you saying we have broken the Rules of the Game, which is instant forfeit in my books, any time we have 0 successful To Hits or To Wounds?
Step 7 has some very unusual conflicting Rules:
Repeat this process until you have selected and resolved attacks from all the weapons in the firing unit
If it wasn't for the ability to select 0 Models to fire, the above would make it so we had to resolve at least one shot from every weapon in the Unit. Now to be fair it does go on to give us a choice not to fire weapons, but yet again this is a choice to select no as an option, instead of a requirement to have at-least one Yes. Sure, it would be a complete waste of time to nominate a unit to fire, choose a legal target and then state you are firing 0 Models but I have yet to see anything more then 'A Shooting Attack must have one Shot at least, that is common sense!' to depute the order of operations set out by the Shooting Sequence itself.
It is not just possible to have a 0 Result somewhere in the sequence, it is likely to occur and the system is designed to still allow a successful Resolution in these situations....
Witchfire powers must roll to hit.
If you do not fire a shot you cannot roll to hit.
Rolling zero die does not satisfy rolling to hit. This is another fiction created by you all to make Psychic Shriek bend the rule.
Zero shot shooting attacks do not exist. This was already shown to be a fiction created by you all to make Psychic Shriek bend the rule.
All of this line of reasoning begs the question, why are you bending over backwards to skip steps that are absolutely required of witchfire?
If you are having to create concepts like rolling zero dice and zero shot shooting attacks then something is fundamentally wrong and you are not doing things according to RAW when you are inventing concepts that don't exist. If psychic shriek is simply broken as is, then just admit it.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Col - so again, you are claiming that wounds can only be caused by to wound rolls? How strange, makes perils somewhat less scary.
Step five and four were satisfied. Why are you not satisfying the rules requiring the power to be resolved?
I guess as you are making up one rule that ignoring another is expected.
Go into detail how steps 4 and 5 were satisfied.
How many rolls to hit does PS allow us to make? How many have we made? How many hits would rolling no dove generate? How mamy to wound rolls did we make?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gwarsh41 wrote: Man, some of the suggestions in here are down right stupid as hell. Apparently 40k can freeze like it is some sort of program huh?
I target the CCB with this spell. It hits, I choose to take the hits on the chariot, it has no leadership, nothing happens, game goes on. You can't lock up a freaking tabletop game, worst case you roll a d6, shake hands like normal people and keep playing.
If the game could lock up, people would assault terrain, and do all other sorts of stupid stuff that are not in the rulebook and lock up tournaments. They don't, it doesn't, this thread has fallen victim to some very powerful trolling.
What if it doesn't hit? Why aren't you resolving the 3d6-ld wounds against the unit as instructed (not the model and the profile as you're trying to do)?
nosferatu1001 wrote: Col - so again, you are claiming that wounds can only be caused by to wound rolls? How strange, makes perils somewhat less scary.
Step five and four were satisfied. Why are you not satisfying the rules requiring the power to be resolved?
I guess as you are making up one rule that ignoring another is expected.
Go into detail how steps 4 and 5 were satisfied.
How many rolls to hit does PS allow us to make? How many have we made? How many hits would rolling no dove generate? How mamy to wound rolls did we make?
You are the one required to answer these questions and resolve steps 4 and 5 if Psychic Shriek is going to have any effect on the game.
To repeat, go into detail how steps 4 and 5 were satisfied.
Rolling zero die does not satisfy rolling to hit. This is another fiction created by you all to make Psychic Shriek bend the rule.
Zero shot shooting attacks do not exist. This was already shown to be a fiction created by you all to make Psychic Shriek bend the rule.
All of this line of reasoning begs the question, why are you bending over backwards to skip steps that are absolutely required of witchfire?
If you are having to create concepts like rolling zero dice and zero shot shooting attacks then something is fundamentally wrong and you are not doing things according to RAW when you are inventing concepts that don't exist. If psychic shriek is simply broken as is, then just admit it.
Zero shots is not an invented concept. The rules tell us that shots can be any number depending on the relevant rules zero is a number.
I don't get your insistence that all a player has to do is cast Enfeeble on a vehicle to have the game end as this is not what you've claimed. Notice how you have to keep changing your interpretation and are trying the "because my interpretation isn't RaW therefore there is no RaW" approach. Our approach is simply to follow the RaW. If you don't like the RaW that is fine and if you and your friends want to play your own made up rules then that's fine too. Do whatever you want to enjoy your hobby. But trying to confuse people who want to know the actual rules is not helpful.
Rolling zero die does not satisfy rolling to hit. This is another fiction created by you all to make Psychic Shriek bend the rule.
Zero shot shooting attacks do not exist. This was already shown to be a fiction created by you all to make Psychic Shriek bend the rule.
All of this line of reasoning begs the question, why are you bending over backwards to skip steps that are absolutely required of witchfire?
If you are having to create concepts like rolling zero dice and zero shot shooting attacks then something is fundamentally wrong and you are not doing things according to RAW when you are inventing concepts that don't exist. If psychic shriek is simply broken as is, then just admit it.
Zero shots is not an invented concept. The rules tell us that shots can be any number depending on the relevant rules zero is a number.
I don't get your insistence that all a player has to do is cast Enfeeble on a vehicle to have the game end as this is not what you've claimed. Notice how you have to keep changing your interpretation and are trying the "because my interpretation isn't RaW therefore there is no RaW" approach. Our approach is simply to follow the RaW. If you don't like the RaW that is fine and if you and your friends want to play your own made up rules then that's fine too. Do whatever you want to enjoy your hobby. But trying to confuse people who want to know the actual rules is not helpful.
Witchfire powers require you to roll to hit. Rolling zero dice does not satisfy this requirement.
Casting enfeeble on a vehicle does not end the game. It is perfectly legal to do so. There is nothing broken in its resolution.
Psychic Shriek is broken RAW. You are unable to resolve it RAW. You cannot resolve it as witchfire. You all are inventing concepts like zero shot shooting attack and rolling zero dice to hit which becomes HYWPI. You cannot claim RAW while inventing concepts.
If you insist on playing Psychic Shriek strictly RAW then it simply does nothing when you try to manifest it. You cannot satisfy all requisite steps.
Or the reasonable among you can play it like BAO, NOVA, and ETC, and resolve it as witchfire. Roll to hit. If successful, psychic shriek takes effect.
Roll To Hit is then name of the Step and a Rule within the Step.... All one has to is obey the instructions within that Rule and they have "Roll-ed To Hit"
JinxDragon wrote: Roll To Hit is then name of the Step and a Rule within the Step....
All one has to is obey the instructions within that Rule and they have "Roll-ed To Hit"
Witchfire powers must roll to hit. The player has to pick up a die and roll it in that step.
Sorry if this has been stated already, as I haven't gone back through all nine pages of text, But how we play it is:
Roll to cast Psychic Shriek.
If the power's successful.
Roll to Deny the Witch.
If the power isn't stopped.
Roll to hit using the casters BS. (Witchfire powers need a to hit roll)
If the roll to hit is successful, then roll 3D6 and compare to the targets Ld value to determine the number of wounds caused.
Resolve wounds as per shooting attack.
Move on to the next power.
As the rules state that successful hits are allocated by the owning player of the chariot, then the only hit would be allocated to the chariot and cause no effect. As chariots are vehicles.
If the owning player however chose to allocate the hit to the rider then the power would be resolved as normal. (I've never seen this happen, but who knows maybe one day)
Sorry if this has been stated already, as I haven't gone back through all nine pages of text, But how we play it is:
Roll to cast Psychic Shriek.
If the power's successful.
Roll to Deny the Witch.
If the power isn't stopped.
Roll to hit using the casters BS. (Witchfire powers need a to hit roll)
If the roll to hit is successful, then roll 3D6 and compare to the targets Ld value to determine the number of wounds caused.
Resolve wounds as per shooting attack.
Move on to the next power.
As the rules state that successful hits are allocated by the owning player of the chariot, then the only hit would be allocated to the chariot and cause no effect. As chariots are vehicles.
If the owning player however chose to allocate the hit to the rider then the power would be resolved as normal. (I've never seen this happen, but who knows maybe one day)
Anyway, just how we play it.
Good luck with the rest of the discussion.
Yup this is exactly the approach to take and more or less the one I am advocating.
JinxDragon wrote: Roll To Hit is then name of the Step and a Rule within the Step....
All one has to is obey the instructions within that Rule and they have "Roll-ed To Hit"
Witchfire powers must roll to hit. The player has to pick up a die and roll it in that step.
Yes, and you roll to hit by following step four, which you do by rolling a d6 for all shots. As ps lacks a profile it has no shots, and you have completed step four. Step five is completed as you have no succesful hits, so that's done.
This has all been explained to you four or more times now, yet you still seem incapable of addressing a single point.
Please explain, in detail, why you believe no wounds can be caused without a to wound roll.
Please explain, in detail, why you refuse to follow the rules, and resolve the psychic power according to its entry.
Explain both, or concede.. Or ideally, accept this fact, Mark your posts as hywpi, and move on.
Oh, and stop with the appeal to Authority gak fallacy. No one cares how Bao, nova do it. It is entirely out with the tenets of this forum.
JinxDragon wrote: Roll To Hit is then name of the Step and a Rule within the Step....
All one has to is obey the instructions within that Rule and they have "Roll-ed To Hit"
Witchfire powers must roll to hit. The player has to pick up a die and roll it in that step.
Yes, and you roll to hit by following step four, which you do by rolling a d6 for all shots. As ps lacks a profile it has no shots, and you have completed step four. Step five is completed as you have no succesful hits, so that's done.
This has all been explained to you four or more times now, yet you still seem incapable of addressing a single point.
Please explain, in detail, why you believe no wounds can be caused without a to wound roll.
Please explain, in detail, why you refuse to follow the rules, and resolve the psychic power according to its entry.
Explain both, or concede.. Or ideally, accept this fact, Mark your posts as hywpi, and move on.
Oh, and stop with the appeal to Authority gak fallacy. No one cares how Bao, nova do it. It is entirely out with the tenets of this forum.
If Psychic Shriek lacks a profile it is defaulted to one shot.
Zero shot shooting attacks do not exist. It's a fiction you are creating to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI by inventing concepts that do not exist. If you think otherwise, prove that zero shot shooting attacks exist. Go find a weapon profile that says Assault 0.
I have no need to, as I have proven that, for ps with no profile, it cannot have any shots. That's tHe rules, just one more you ignore eh? So I have complied with step four - I have no shots, I roll a d6 for each of my shots. I move on, as entitled tO, and resolve the power according to its entry.
Answer the questions about why you refuse to follow the psychic rules and resolve the power according to its entry. Explain why you insist wounds cannot happen without a to wound roll
Your concession is accepted. Mark your posts HYWPI as per the tenets of this forum, and desist from presenting your arguments as raw. They have been proven not to be. Or, for once, you could address the glaring whole - cloth made up nature of your argument, Nd present a single supporting rule
nosferatu1001 wrote: I have no need to, as I have proven that, for ps with no profile, it cannot have any shots. That's tHe rules, just one more you ignore eh? So I have complied with step four - I have no shots, I roll a d6 for each of my shots. I move on, as entitled tO, and resolve the power according to its entry.
Answer the questions about why you refuse to follow the psychic rules and resolve the power according to its entry. Explain why you insist wounds cannot happen without a to wound roll
Your concession is accepted. Mark your posts HYWPI as per the tenets of this forum, and desist from presenting your arguments as raw. They have been proven not to be. Or, for once, you could address the glaring whole - cloth made up nature of your argument, Nd present a single supporting rule
I won't hold my breath.
Shooting attacks with no profile have one shot. Zero shot shooting attacks are not an option because they do not exist and are moreover nonsensical. Zero shot shooting attacks are a fiction you are making up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI.
Witchfire powers require you to roll to hit. Rolling zero dice does not satisfy this requirement.
Casting enfeeble on a vehicle does not end the game. It is perfectly legal to do so. There is nothing broken in its resolution.
So how do you resolve the required step of applying -1T to the vehicle?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why can it not be answered in general?
nosferatu, what say you? Ignore the rule, make something up, or other? What about you Jinx?
The only RaW answer is to leave the unresolvable situation unresolved. Any actions that depend on the resolution of that action are likewise left and we carry on with what can be resolved.
Witchfire powers require you to roll to hit. Rolling zero dice does not satisfy this requirement.
Casting enfeeble on a vehicle does not end the game. It is perfectly legal to do so. There is nothing broken in its resolution.
So how do you resolve the required step of applying -1T to the vehicle?
There are two possible answers. Either the vehicle is not affected since it does not have a Toughness to modify or the vehicle is insta-killed. I pick the non-silly answer.
nosferatu, what say you? Ignore the rule, make something up, or other? What about you Jinx?
The only RaW answer is to leave the unresolvable situation unresolved. Any actions that depend on the resolution of that action are likewise left and we carry on with what can be resolved.
This is a Recap of your argument FlingItNow
Spoiler:
Psychic Shriek is broken.
Because it's broken I can't resolve it as witchfire which is required by the rules.
I can't resolve a To Hit Roll or a To Wound Roll, which are required by the rules.
Luckily though, because it's broken the game will freeze at their resolution so I can magically skip these steps and magically jump to the resolution text of Psychic Shriek and resolve the power anyway.
This is a ridiculous line of argumentation. You are basically admitting Psychic Shriek is broken beyond repair and then leveraging that brokenness to allow you to skip required steps and have it work magically.
Witchfire powers require you to roll to hit. Rolling zero dice does not satisfy this requirement.
Casting enfeeble on a vehicle does not end the game. It is perfectly legal to do so. There is nothing broken in its resolution.
So how do you resolve the required step of applying -1T to the vehicle?
There are two possible answers. Either the vehicle is not affected since it does not have a Toughness to modify or the vehicle is insta-killed. I pick the non-silly answer.
Why do you not assign a number to be the Toughness?
If I don't roll any dice during this step, how many dice have I rolled? If that number is equal to the number of shots, have I followed the instructions?
Just as legal as rolling 0 Dice during the To Wound portion whenever we have 0 Hits.
There are two possible answers. Either the vehicle is not affected since it does not have a Toughness to modify or the vehicle is insta-killed. I pick the non-silly answer.
Why are there 2 answers?
Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?
Witchfire powers require you to roll to hit. Rolling zero dice does not satisfy this requirement.
Casting enfeeble on a vehicle does not end the game. It is perfectly legal to do so. There is nothing broken in its resolution.
So how do you resolve the required step of applying -1T to the vehicle?
There are two possible answers. Either the vehicle is not affected since it does not have a Toughness to modify or the vehicle is insta-killed. I pick the non-silly answer.
Why do you not assign a number to be the Toughness?
There are two possible answers. Either the vehicle is not affected since it does not have a Toughness to modify or the vehicle is insta-killed. I pick the non-silly answer.
Why are there 2 answers?
Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?
If I don't roll any dice during this step, how many dice have I rolled?
If that number is equal to the number of shots, have I followed the instructions?
Just as legal as rolling 0 Dice during the To Wound portion whenever we have 0 Hits.
Witchfire powers must roll to hit. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FlingitNow wrote: And Enfeeble requires a -1T modifier be applied. So why are you treating them differently. Let me guess you still can't answer that question?
Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Witchfire powers must roll to hit. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI.
Shooting attacks must roll to wound. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI...
FlingitNow wrote: Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Witchfire powers must roll to hit. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI.
Shooting attacks must roll to wound. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI...
See what I did there?
Shooting attacks that hit require a To Wound Roll for every hit.
FlingitNow wrote: Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?
I am not. Both options for enfeeble are valid applications of the rules. One leads to a silly result and so is discarded.
So both options are valid for PS too then?
Nope. PS needs to resolve as witchfire to take effect. You don't get to skip requisite steps. If the rules are broken to the extent that you can't resolve it, the power does not take effect. If both players can come up with a way to fix the situation then so be it but of course that's HYWPI.
The reason people almost unanimously play it according to the BAO, NOVA, ETC way is because that way is obviously RAI.
FlingitNow wrote: Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Witchfire powers must roll to hit. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI.
Shooting attacks must roll to wound. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI...
See what I did there?
Shooting attacks that hit require a To Wound Roll for every hit.
And how do you know what you need to roll To Wound? In general, of course.
FlingitNow wrote: Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Witchfire powers must roll to hit. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI.
Shooting attacks must roll to wound. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI...
See what I did there?
Shooting attacks that hit require a To Wound Roll for every hit.
And how do you know what you need to roll To Wound? In general, of course.
Spoiler:
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the
target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing
weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.
FlingitNow wrote: Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Witchfire powers must roll to hit. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI.
Shooting attacks must roll to wound. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI...
See what I did there?
Shooting attacks that hit require a To Wound Roll for every hit.
And how do you know what you need to roll To Wound? In general, of course.
Spoiler:
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the
target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing
weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.
FlingitNow wrote: Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Witchfire powers must roll to hit. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI.
Shooting attacks must roll to wound. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI...
See what I did there?
Shooting attacks that hit require a To Wound Roll for every hit.
And how do you know what you need to roll To Wound? In general, of course.
Spoiler:
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the
target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing
weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.
And what is the Strength of Psychic Shriek?
GW does not provide you with that info. The rules are broken. You are missing a critical profile. You cannot resolve PS from a pure RAW standpoint. We are by necessity in house rule land. Since it's fairly obvious what the RAI would be, following BAO, NOVA, ETC is the way to go from there.
FlingitNow wrote: Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Witchfire powers must roll to hit. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI.
Shooting attacks must roll to wound. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI...
See what I did there?
Shooting attacks that hit require a To Wound Roll for every hit.
Witchfires that shoot require a To Hit roll for every shot they make.
FlingitNow wrote: Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?
I am not. Both options for enfeeble are valid applications of the rules. One leads to a silly result and so is discarded.
So both options are valid for PS too then?
Nope. PS needs to resolve as witchfire to take effect. You don't get to skip requisite steps. If the rules are broken to the extent that you can't resolve it, the power does not take effect. If both players can come up with a way to fix the situation then so be it but of course that's HYWPI.
The reason people almost unanimously play it according to the BAO, NOVA, ETC way is because that way is obviously RAI.
So your answer to my question was a lie. So why can't you truthfully answer the question? What is preventing you from honestly answering the question?
The reason most people play the RaW is because it is absolutely clear that it is also the RaI. Given that you admitted to lying in your response to an honest simple question your claims of RaI ring very hollow.
FlingitNow wrote: Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Witchfire powers must roll to hit. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI.
Shooting attacks must roll to wound. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI...
See what I did there?
Shooting attacks that hit require a To Wound Roll for every hit.
Witchfires that shoot require a To Hit roll for every shot they make.
FlingitNow wrote: Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?
I am not. Both options for enfeeble are valid applications of the rules. One leads to a silly result and so is discarded.
So both options are valid for PS too then?
Nope. PS needs to resolve as witchfire to take effect. You don't get to skip requisite steps. If the rules are broken to the extent that you can't resolve it, the power does not take effect. If both players can come up with a way to fix the situation then so be it but of course that's HYWPI.
The reason people almost unanimously play it according to the BAO, NOVA, ETC way is because that way is obviously RAI.
So your answer to my question was a lie. So why can't you truthfully answer the question? What is preventing you from honestly answering the question?
The reason most people play the RaW is because it is absolutely clear that it is also the RaI. Given that you admitted to lying in your response to an honest simple question your claims of RaI ring very hollow.
What answer is a lie? I have not been lying. I sometimes wonder about your English comprehension though. Not to mention you have an obnoxious tendency to put words in other peoples mouth. (E.G "I accept your concession" "Given that you admitted to lying . . "). Your argument style is ridiculously bad and you should cut that stuff out. That kind of stuff has no place in a YMDC thread.
GW does not provide you with that info. The rules are broken. You are missing a critical profile. You cannot resolve PS from a pure RAW standpoint. We are by necessity in house rule land. Since it's fairly obvious what the RAI would be, following BAO, NOVA, ETC is the way to go from there.
So why not make up a Strength? As long as we're going to make up a profile.
FlingitNow wrote: Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?
I am not. Both options for enfeeble are valid applications of the rules. One leads to a silly result and so is discarded.
So both options are valid for PS too then?
Nope. PS needs to resolve as witchfire to take effect. You don't get to skip requisite steps. If the rules are broken to the extent that you can't resolve it, the power does not take effect. If both players can come up with a way to fix the situation then so be it but of course that's HYWPI.
The reason people almost unanimously play it according to the BAO, NOVA, ETC way is because that way is obviously RAI.
So asked you why you were treating 2 things differently. You said you weren't because both the options for one of those two things were valid. Which means that both of those options must be the same for the other situation or you are not treating them the same. So when you then say that is not the case you are stating that your response is not true. So it is a lie. This is what you have stated. So why can't you answer the question truthfully? What is preventing you from doing so?
You can't really complain about my debating style when I ask you a question and you avoid it. I ask it again you say what question (aka avoid it again). So I ask it a third time and you lie in your response. That is really not helpful to the discussion. Which brings me back to why won't you truthfully answer the question?
FlingitNow wrote: Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?
I am not. Both options for enfeeble are valid applications of the rules. One leads to a silly result and so is discarded.
So both options are valid for PS too then?
Nope. PS needs to resolve as witchfire to take effect. You don't get to skip requisite steps. If the rules are broken to the extent that you can't resolve it, the power does not take effect. If both players can come up with a way to fix the situation then so be it but of course that's HYWPI.
The reason people almost unanimously play it according to the BAO, NOVA, ETC way is because that way is obviously RAI.
So asked you why you were treating 2 things differently. You said you weren't because both the options for one of those two things were valid. Which means that both of those options must be the same for the other situation or you are not treating them the same. So when you then say that is not the case you are stating that your response is not true. So it is a lie. This is what you have stated. So why can't you answer the question truthfully? What is preventing you from doing so?
You can't really complain about my debating style when I ask you a question and you avoid it. I ask it again you say what question (aka avoid it again). So I ask it a third time and you lie in your response. That is really not helpful to the discussion. Which brings me back to why won't you truthfully answer the question?
Huh?. In the case of PS there are not two equally valid solutions. There is only a broken situation where strict RAW does not lead to resolution. So it's not the same at all.
) was the following concerning this very issue:
