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so reducing isn't a modifier? the act of a characteristic going from the number 1 to the number 0 by being reduced by a number of 1 or more isn't a modifier?

blaktoof wrote:
so reducing isn't a modifier? the act of a characteristic going from the number 1 to the number 0 by being reduced by a number of 1 or more isn't a modifier?

Since it never has to reference the modifier rules to do so...

Even if it was (which I don't concede) your argument has other holes you should deal with first.

so taking a bike does not give +toughness because it doesn't reference the modifier rules....good to know.

Lets see if we can all follow this.
Power goes off.
I roll to hit, because witchfire says so. I choose to roll 1 die, because reasons.
That die roll hits.
The chariot owner assigns the hit.
Roll to wound/penetrate is skipped, because P-shriek has no strength value.
Psychic Shriek then says roll 3D6 and subtract the units LD.
The over-lord has a 10, the chariot has no leadership, but "Never takes More checks or Leadership tests" (page 78).
Let's assume we use the chariots lack of leadership as 0.
Shriek rolls average and does 10 wounds.
10 wounds go into the wound pool (chariot rule only allows the hit to be allocated, and the to wound/pen is skipped).
Allocate Wounds:
Assign wounds to the closest model.
The CCB, and the Over-lord riding in it, are both the exact same distance away, the owning player chooses which model is attacked. (page 35 under Closest model, allocating wounds).

So even if you ignore the to-hit roll, or auto-hit, and even if you go with Ld0 for the CCB, once the wound pool is generated, it's up to the Controlling player of the CCB to decide how to split them up.

Having zero wounds can't kill a vehicle. If it did, every vehicle would instantly die upon deployment for having zero wounds.


Looks like to me:
1) Psychic Shriek is a mess.
2) CCB is immune to it.

blaktoof wrote:
so taking a bike does not give +toughness because it doesn't reference the modifier rules....good to know.

a) No, that's not what I said at all. This is what a strawman is.
b) Good job ignoring the other holes in your argument.

CCB is certainly not immune to PS. Either PS doesn't roll to hit in which case the wounds effect the rider or PS rolls 1 dice to hit and if that hit is assign to the barge then it is insta removed as it takes atleast 2 wounds and only has 1.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Lets see if we can all follow this.
Power goes off.
I roll to hit, because witchfire says so. I choose to roll 1 die, because reasons.
That die roll hits.
The chariot owner assigns the hit.
Roll to wound/penetrate is skipped, because P-shriek has no strength value.
Psychic Shriek then says roll 3D6 and subtract the units LD.
The over-lord has a 10, the chariot has no leadership, but "Never takes More checks or Leadership tests" (page 78).
Let's assume we use the chariots lack of leadership as 0.
Shriek rolls average and does 10 wounds.
10 wounds go into the wound pool (chariot rule only allows the hit to be allocated, and the to wound/pen is skipped).
Allocate Wounds:
Assign wounds to the closest model.
The CCB, and the Over-lord riding in it, are both the exact same distance away, the owning player chooses which model is attacked. (page 35 under Closest model, allocating wounds).

So even if you ignore the to-hit roll, or auto-hit, and even if you go with Ld0 for the CCB, once the wound pool is generated, it's up to the Controlling player of the CCB to decide how to split them up.

Having zero wounds can't kill a vehicle. If it did, every vehicle would instantly die upon deployment for having zero wounds.


Looks like to me:
1) Psychic Shriek is a mess.
2) CCB is immune to it.

So a few things.

1. The rider and chariot are not separate models, it is a single model.
2. Where does the owning player get permission to allocate Wounds to one of the Chariot profiles?
3. Having 0 Wounds does not "kill" you. Being reduced to 0 Wounds is what kills you.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Let's assume we use the chariots lack of leadership as 0.
Having zero wounds can't kill a vehicle. If it did, every vehicle would instantly die upon deployment for having zero wounds.

Two things you got completely wrong. Lack of leadership != 0 leadership.
And its being reduced from 1 to 0 that causes issues, not having 0. There's a difference (irrelevant in this case, but worth pointing out).

rigeld2 wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Let's assume we use the chariots lack of leadership as 0.
Having zero wounds can't kill a vehicle. If it did, every vehicle would instantly die upon deployment for having zero wounds.

Two things you got completely wrong. Lack of leadership != 0 leadership.
And its being reduced from 1 to 0 that causes issues, not having 0. There's a difference (irrelevant in this case, but worth pointing out).

I didn't say that lack of leadership = 0. I said assume it as 0, since it doesn't matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Let's assume we use the chariots lack of leadership as 0.
The CCB, and the Over-lord riding in it, are both the exact same distance away, the owning player chooses which model is attacked. (page 35 under Closest model, allocating wounds).

So a few things.

1. The rider and chariot are not separate models, it is a single model.
2. Where does the owning player get permission to allocate Wounds to one of the Chariot profiles?
3. Having 0 Wounds does not "kill" you. Being reduced to 0 Wounds is what kills you.

1. The CCB is a model. The overlord is a model. They are the same model.
2. Permission to allocate is grated on page 35, closest model. If only a single model is present, the controlling player chooses to allocate it to the model. Normally this wouldn't ever come up, but Shriek by-passing the normal rolling to wound after allocating a hit has created a wound pool on the unit, despite how the hit is allocated.
Once you have a wound pool, those wounds must be allocated. You aren't told to do it randomly, which only leaves the controlling player allocating to the closest model, which is the CCB/Overlord.

The CCB & Overlord are the same model so it gets assigned to that model as a whole. It effects both profiles.

Also if you're choosing 1 dice why are you net setting the Chariot profile to 1 for Ld & Wounds? You set it to 1 you do so for all.

PS is a witchfire, regardless of how many dice you roll it is considered a shooting attack.

The chariot page in the BRB specifies that all shooting attacks against the CCB are then spilt into a wound pool. So assuming you shoot at the CCB, the 1 hit would then be allocated by the controlling player. To the vehicle.

The chariot itself is considered one model, but the controlling player chooses where shooting attacks are allocated, therefore he can select to choose the chariot.

Because it uses the characteristic of the model to roll against the models leadership, you would use the Overlords leadership in this situation, however all wounds allocated will go to the barge. The vehicle cannot take wounds, therefore it's as simple as the controlling player rolling up the shields on PS.

How can you argue that the wounds would be transfered to the overlord? That's like saying somehow you pen the vehicle and the overlord suffers hullpoint damage or suffers a pen result lol.

I also don't understand how people believe that a witchfire can not roll to hit and still go off. All other witchfires fail to hit, fail to go off. How would PS make an exception to that rule? Regardless of how many dice you have to roll. Witchfire in the BRB is explained. (Even if PS is not)

Edit2: p.27 BRB - Witchfire - "Witchfire Powers are shooting attacks." Most people argue that because there's a leadership test after and we don't know how many shots we are suppose to take, it doesn't matter if you hit. However, since we treat witchfire as a shooting attack, we go to see how normal shooting is dictated. p.32 under roll to hit - When rolling To Hit, there is no such thing as an automatic hit, and a roll of 1 always misses.

So some how, hit or miss, you guys still assume a test is taken even though every other witchfire that doesn't share a similarity to PS automatically goes off? Seems like you're making your own rules up at that point.

 Mavlun wrote:
as opposed to witchfire powers, which are explained to be normal shooting attacks, in every respect, to the point where you can even make snapshots with it, you need LoS, you need range, you need to allocate wounds to the closest model, etc.

And from the shooting phase sequence, we know that you stop at the end of Step 4, proceeding to Step 5, the wounding process, only for to roll hits that produced actual hits. This has been said over and over and over again, we're going around in circles. Now you're going to reply saying "Well it has no shooting profile, herpaderpaderp, therefore it needs to work regardless of whether it hits or not" and I'm going to come back saying "no, cause it's a shooting attack", and we're going to keep doing this forever. Let's agree to disagree, and pray that GW get off their lazy asses and put out an FAQ dealing with this nonsense.

Thanks Mavlun!

I've pretty much made my Call on this:
witchfire = Shooting attack. Rolling To Hit is defined.
Using your words as mine:
"Now you're going to reply saying "Well it has no shooting profile, herpaderpaderp, therefore it needs to work regardless of whether it hits or not" and I'm going to come back saying "no, cause it's a shooting attack", and we're going to keep doing this forever. Let's agree to disagree, and pray that GW get off their lazy asses and put out an FAQ dealing with this nonsense."

Moving on...(personally)

The roll to hit is defined as is the roll to wound. It is impossible to resolve either of those rolls for PS due to lack of a profile. So why stop at making up rules to roll to hit? Why not make up a profile to roll to wound on too? No one on your side has ever been able to answer this.

Lets assume it is assault 1 for a second and has a profile. Guess what the 3d6-ld wounds still occurs regardless of that roll to hit. Why? Because literally NOTHING in the rules links the 2 effects. So why again link it to the roll to hit why not link it to the roll to wound? Or link it to a failed save? Why arbitrarily link it to a successful hit? Again no one on your side of the argument has been able to answer this.

Lets see how you handle similar situations. Lets say I manifest Haemmorage and target a vehicle. The toughness test roll is well defined, impossible to auto pass and required to happen. However the vehicle lacks the relevant profile. So do you set it to T1 or say it has no effect?

Once you've resolved your T1 test and it fails you then have a wound on the vehicle. However the vehicle has no woubds characteristic so do you say it is uneffected by wounds or set it to W1 and remove it as a casualty?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Whacked wrote:
PS is a witchfire, regardless of how many dice you roll it is considered a shooting attack.

The chariot page in the BRB specifies that all shooting attacks against the CCB are then spilt into a wound pool. So assuming you shoot at the CCB, the 1 hit would then be allocated by the controlling player. To the vehicle.

The chariot itself is considered one model, but the controlling player chooses where shooting attacks are allocated, therefore he can select to choose the chariot.

Because it uses the characteristic of the model to roll against the models leadership, you would use the Overlords leadership in this situation, however all wounds allocated will go to the barge. The vehicle cannot take wounds, therefore it's as simple as the controlling player rolling up the shields on PS.

How can you argue that the wounds would be transfered to the overlord? That's like saying somehow you pen the vehicle and the overlord suffers hullpoint damage or suffers a pen result lol.

I also don't understand how people believe that a witchfire can not roll to hit and still go off. All other witchfires fail to hit, fail to go off. How would PS make an exception to that rule? Regardless of how many dice you have to roll. Witchfire in the BRB is explained. (Even if PS is not)

Edit2: p.27 BRB - Witchfire - "Witchfire Powers are shooting attacks." Most people argue that because there's a leadership test after and we don't know how many shots we are suppose to take, it doesn't matter if you hit. However, since we treat witchfire as a shooting attack, we go to see how normal shooting is dictated. p.32 under roll to hit - When rolling To Hit, there is no such thing as an automatic hit, and a roll of 1 always misses.

So some how, hit or miss, you guys still assume a test is taken even though every other witchfire that doesn't share a similarity to PS automatically goes off? Seems like you're making your own rules up at that point.

Read the thread and the relevant rules every point you've brought up has been covered and debunked.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The CCB & Overlord are the same model so it gets assigned to that model as a whole. It effects both profiles.

Got a quote for that? Your doubling the size of the wound pool if you apply 1 wound twice to a model.
Please give a page reference.

As for the to hit roll, wither you roll 1 die, a million dice, or no dice, you still generate a wound pool that the controlling player is left to allocate.
The chariot rules only lets you single out one part or another when you roll to wound, roll to penetrate. Psychic Shriek skips that step. That puts the wound pool back on track for normal rules of distributing wounds.

Page 86 second paragraph, 2nd & 4th sentences are the relevant ones.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Page 86 second paragraph, 2nd & 4th sentences are the relevant ones.

2nd Paragraph.
2nd sentence.
A rider cannot disembark from his chariot, nor can he be targeted separately from his chariot.
4th sentence:
If the Rider has a special rule that returns it to play after it has been removed as a casualty, such as a Necron's Ever-ling special rule, that model's Chariot is also returned to play with a single Hull Point.
I don't see anything there to make me think that wounds are applied to both profiles.
The 3rd sentence that's that if the rider is reduced to 0 wounds, or his chariot is destroyed, then the entire model is removed. But that has nothing to do with allocating hits, but rather is a process you complete once either half of the combined unit is taken out.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The roll to hit is defined as is the roll to wound. It is impossible to resolve either of those rolls for PS due to lack of a profile. So why stop at making up rules to roll to hit? ...blah blah blah.

The rules require a witchfire to roll to hit. Pure RAW. So everything you say is invalid without addressing that.

PS is broken, pure and simple. Everything you (and everyone) arguing here is HIWPI because RAW doesnt work.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Page 86 second paragraph, 2nd & 4th sentences are the relevant ones.

2nd Paragraph.
2nd sentence.
A rider cannot disembark from his chariot, nor can he be targeted separately from his chariot.
4th sentence:
If the Rider has a special rule that returns it to play after it has been removed as a casualty, such as a Necron's Ever-ling special rule, that model's Chariot is also returned to play with a single Hull Point.
I don't see anything there to make me think that wounds are applied to both profiles.
The 3rd sentence that's that if the rider is reduced to 0 wounds, or his chariot is destroyed, then the entire model is removed. But that has nothing to do with allocating hits, but rather is a process you complete once either half of the combined unit is taken out.

Yes if you skip the 2nd paragraph and jump to the 3rd you'll get some weird quotes well done.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
The roll to hit is defined as is the roll to wound. It is impossible to resolve either of those rolls for PS due to lack of a profile. So why stop at making up rules to roll to hit? ...blah blah blah.

The rules require a witchfire to roll to hit. Pure RAW. So everything you say is invalid without addressing that.

PS is broken, pure and simple. Everything you (and everyone) arguing here is HIWPI because RAW doesnt work.

So casting Enfeeble on a vehicle is broken too? Haemmorage? Ironarm? Resolving the 3d6-ld wounds from PS against a vehicle also broken. This is correct yes?

col_impact wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
so you think enfeeble does nothing?

or suffer is a characterstic modifier.

here is a thought-

show in the rules where it explicitly states the necron player can allocate psychic shriek on chariots, and do nothing to the rider part of the unt or you are making stuff up despite it not having a str/ap value which is required for creating pools to allocate by the RAW.

SHOOTING AT CHARIOTS

When shooting at a Chariot unit, total up the number of successful hits that have been caused. Keep the dice that have scored hits and create a ‘pool’, where each dice represents a hit. If there are hits with different Strengths, AP values or special rules that affect saving throws or any Wounds they inflict, split them into several pools of hits. All hits with exactly the same Strength, AP value and special rules must go into the same pool. If all the hits are the same, there will be only one hit pool.

The player controlling the Chariot unit then allocates each hit pool either to the rider or the Chariot of the closest model in the unit. If several pools of hits need to be allocated, the player making the attacks must decide in which order they are resolved. All hits from a single pool must be allocated and resolved before moving on to the next pool of hits. Hit pools from Blast and Template weapons are always resolved against the Chariot. If the Chariot model is hit by a Precision Shot, that hit is allocated by the firer, not the owning player. When resolving successful hits that have been assigned to a Chariot, work out which of its Armour Values to use as you would for any other vehicle, based on the position of the model compared to the model firing at it.

sooo... i didn't read anything under this post... but to add to the discussion I highlighted in orange an interesting tid bit... does psychic shriek have a "hit pool?"
If yes... then the chariot can take the wounds...
If no... then the rider takes the wounds...

I would be inclined by the wording in power and the rules for chariots to say that the owner of the ccb DOES NOT get to allocate the wounds since it is not a "hit pool" but rather a wound pool... right?

Yes Psychic Shriek does not generate any hits for the CCB to allocate.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yes Psychic Shriek does not generate any hits for the CCB to allocate.

I'm aware of that. But PS still does not generate any hits. The 3d6-ld wounds have nothing to do with any to hit roll.

 FlingitNow wrote:
I'm aware of that. But PS still does not generate any hits. The 3d6-ld wounds have nothing to do with any to hit roll.

Does the PS roll to hit succeed or fail?

 FlingitNow wrote:
The roll to hit is defined as is the roll to wound. It is impossible to resolve either of those rolls for PS due to lack of a profile.

Wrong. Even with a lack of a profile we can resolve a roll to hit. We are told in the rules to use the model's BS. Only successful hits can generate wounds.



It's only at the point in which we are resolving a roll to wound where we have a hiccup in the process if we follow the rules. The lack of a profile leaves the roll to wound somewhat open to interpretation. However if we follow the text in the psychic shriek excerpt (which describes a custom roll to wound by the looks of it) instead of step 5 then we have done everything by the rules and with the least possible intervention to get it to work.

You might think we need to know the profile to know how many shots to roll a hit for. We don't need a profile to resolve that. If the number of shots is not noted we know it to be 1, per the rules.

Ok lets assume you do roll your 1 dice to hit (with out a profile we actually don't know this that sentence doesn't apply as it talks about shooting weapons PS isn't a shooting weapon because it doesn't have a type page 40). What if I miss. Then I've generated zero hits yet the rules still demand that the unit takes 3d6-LD wounds (pages 24 & 26).

3d6-ld wounds is NOT step 5 as it does not have a S that is compared to a majority T on the chart (pages 30 & 34), nor does it state it replaces a to wound roll, nor does it follow each successful hit (page 198).

So to stop the 3d6-ld wounds you need something that states if PS (or indeed Witchfires or Psychic Powers) do not resolve on a failed to hit roll. Page and paragraph please.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Ok lets assume you do roll your 1 dice to hit (with out a profile we actually don't know this that sentence doesn't apply as it talks about shooting weapons PS isn't a shooting weapon because it doesn't have a type page 40). What if I miss. Then I've generated zero hits yet the rules still demand that the unit takes 3d6-LD wounds (pages 24 & 26).

3d6-ld wounds is NOT step 5 as it does not have a S that is compared to a majority T on the chart (pages 30 & 34), nor does it state it replaces a to wound roll, nor does it follow each successful hit (page 198).

So to stop the 3d6-ld wounds you need something that states if PS (or indeed Witchfires or Psychic Powers) do not resolve on a failed to hit roll. Page and paragraph please.

Did you somehow forget that Psychic Shriek is witchfire? Witchfire are shooting attacks that roll to hit using BS and only wound on hits. They don't wound on misses. The fact that psychic shriek is a witchfire is indisputable.

The rules are broken. We don't have a profile and we don't have all the pieces. GW F'ed things up here. Are you saying that GW has provided us with a full profile and that we have all the info that we need? We are in patch mode here.

You can stretch the rules and "rules lawyer" off the missing pieces and turn psychic shriek into a malediction but that's obviously wrong since it contradicts what we know is given, that psychic shriek is a witchfire. Or we can do the minimum to get psychic shriek to work like what we know is true, that it is a witchfire, and roll to hit, and if it succeeds then deal with the wounds. We can treat the text that is included in the psychic shriek description as a roll to wound and we can look at case examples like the Necron Abyssal staff as justification.

I can turn the same back on you. Please cite page and paragraph where psychic shriek skips the roll to hit and auto-hits and skips the roll to wound that are required of shooting attacks. If you would rather psychic shriek just breaks and becomes unresolvable and doesn't work at all then that's fine too. Because what we have is a broken mess. And the only clear and logical thing to do is to make it work like witchfire.

So if you want me to provide page and paragraph, write an e-mail to GW to provide you with the missing profile and I will quote from what they provide. And while you are waiting for that, the sensible among us will be playing it like witchfire and not like a malediction, since that much we know is true.

Did you somehow forget that Psychic Shriek is witchfire? Witchfire are shooting attacks that roll to hit using BS and only wound on hits. They don't wound on misses. The fact that psychic shriek is a witchfire is indisputable. 

Psychic Shriek can't make a to wound roll ever so why is the roll to hit relevant?

You can stretch the rules and "rules lawyer" off the missing pieces and turn psychic shriek into a malediction but that's obviously wrong since it contradicts what we know is given, that psychic shriek is a witchfire. Or we can do the minimum to get psychic shriek to work like what we know is true, that it is a witchfire, and roll to hit, and if it succeeds then deal with the wounds. We can treat the text that is included in the psychic shriek description as a roll to wound and we can look at case examples like the Necron Abyssal staff as justification.

It's only as broken as manifesting Enfeeble on a vehicle is. Unresolvable events occur all the time and in every other situation we leave them unresolved and move on. Why is the roll to hit such a special flower?

It is nothing like the abyssal staff the abyssal staff tells us to make a to wound roll.

I can turn the same back on you. Please cite page and paragraph where psychic shriek skips the roll to hit and auto-hits and skips the roll to wound that are required of shooting attacks. If you would rather psychic shriek just breaks and becomes unresolvable and doesn't work at all then that's fine too. Because what we have is a broken mess. And the only clear and logical thing to do is to make it work like witchfire. 

I've never stated Psychic Shriek hits or wounds automatically. I've ALWAYS stated that those two steps are unresolvable for PS. If you approached every similar situation the same you'd have a point:

" The roll to hit is defined as is the roll to wound. It is impossible to resolve either of those rolls for PS due to lack of a profile. So why stop at making up rules to roll to hit? Why not make up a profile to roll to wound on too? No one on your side has ever been able to answer this. 

Lets assume it is assault 1 for a second and has a profile. Guess what the 3d6-ld wounds still occurs regardless of that roll to hit. Why? Because literally NOTHING in the rules links the 2 effects. So why again link it to the roll to hit why not link it to the roll to wound? Or link it to a failed save? Why arbitrarily link it to a successful hit? Again no one on your side of the argument has been able to answer this. 

Lets see how you handle similar situations. Lets say I manifest Haemmorage and target a vehicle. The toughness test roll is well defined, impossible to auto pass and required to happen. However the vehicle lacks the relevant profile. So do you set it to T1 or say it has no effect? 

Once you've resolved your T1 test and it fails you then have a wound on the vehicle. However the vehicle has no woubds characteristic so do you say it is uneffected by wounds or set it to W1 and remove it as a casualty?"

You of course are free to make up your own houserules on how to play PS but don't try to confuse people on here. The rules are clear.

I have had people try this on me in several of the "big" GT's.

Its a mistake people don't make twice, I enjoyed them having to call a judge to come over who then subsequently explains he just wasted his power.


Kid of like charging an Imperial Knight into Fire Warriors, then learning they have EMP grenades.....

Col_impact - incorrect. Only succesful to hit rolls meet the requirements for you to roll to-wound rolls. You can cause wounds in other ways perfectly fine on a miss. Please correct your inaccurate and misleading posts.

Yes they are clear as a Witchfire power you cannot resolve it until you figure out how to roll to hit. Using your line of thinking it is unresolvable so I will be magnanimous and allow you to roll for a different power until it's fixed by GW.

 Lord Commissar wrote:
I have had people try this on me in several of the "big" GT's.

Its a mistake people don't make twice, I enjoyed them having to call a judge to come over who then subsequently explains he just wasted his power.


Kid of like charging an Imperial Knight into Fire Warriors, then learning they have EMP grenades.....

Crowing about a judge making an incorrect call to cheat an opponent out of victory is not exactly good sportmanship...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gravmyr wrote:
Yes they are clear as a Witchfire power you cannot resolve it until you figure out how to roll to hit. Using your line of thinking it is unresolvable so I will be magnanimous and allow you to roll for a different power until it's fixed by GW.

Why can you not resolve the power until after resolving the to hit roll?

I also assume say I'm winning in a game and decide to cast Enfeeble on your vehicle the game can not continue until we resolve the unresolvable -1T effect and we sit there until time runs out on the round and I win. This is how you play correct? Or do you say the unresolvable action has no effect and anything depending on that action has no effect and carry on with what can be resolved?