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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 13:50:40
Subject: Psychic Shriek and CCB
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Gravmyr wrote:Yes they are clear as a Witchfire power you cannot resolve it until you figure out how to roll to hit. Using your line of thinking it is unresolvable so I will be magnanimous and allow you to roll for a different power until it's fixed by GW.
How do you resolve enfeeble against a vehicle? You have no T profile to modify.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 14:14:19
Subject: Psychic Shriek and CCB
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Killer Klaivex
Oceanside, CA
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FlingitNow wrote:
Yes if you skip the 2nd paragraph and jump to the 3rd you'll get some weird quotes well done.
Sorry, when I was in school, a single line under a title was a header, not a paragraph.
Counting the header as a paragraph, everything your stating hinges on "The target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result" = a modifier like " target unit suffers a -1 penalty"
Where as, page 34 tells us,
Total up the number of Wounds you have caused with the weapons that are firing.
Page 27 tells us that Witchfire powers are shooting attacks, and that Saves can be Taken against Wounds from witchfire in the same way as for any other shooting attack. The weapon firing in this case is "psychic shriek".
Shooting attacks allows saves. I don't see any rules that allow saves for characteristic modifiers.
It looks like Psychic Scream processes as a psychic shooting attack, not a Modifier.
If you can find stronger evidence that psychic shriek is a characteristic modifier as opposed to a shooting attack, then I'd totally agree with you that both the CCB and the Overlord are equally affected.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 14:24:11
Subject: Psychic Shriek and CCB
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Why would saves stop it being a modifier? Do wounds caused modify your wounds characteristic? Just because there are rules that can prevent these permanent modifiers from applying does nothing to stop them being modifiers. Also note how the CCB & Overlord are one model for having wounds applied to them due to sentence 2.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 15:23:21
Subject: Re:Psychic Shriek and CCB
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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FlingitNow, are you saying that Psychic Shriek isn't missing a profile?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 15:25:28
Subject: Re:Psychic Shriek and CCB
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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col_impact wrote:FlingitNow, are you saying that Psychic Shriek isn't missing a profile?
I'm saying it doesn't have a profile. I'm saying we deal with that the same way we deal with literally every other incidence of an unresolvable action due to lack of a profile. Now please answer my questions or is this you conceding?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 15:28:36
Subject: Re:Psychic Shriek and CCB
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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FlingitNow wrote:col_impact wrote:FlingitNow, are you saying that Psychic Shriek isn't missing a profile?
I'm saying it doesn't have a profile. I'm saying we deal with that the same way we deal with literally every other incidence of an unresolvable action due to lack of a profile. Now please answer my questions or is this you conceding?
Is it missing a profile, yes or no? Or are you conceding?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 15:37:34
Subject: Psychic Shriek and CCB
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Yes there is a missing profile as I stated above. Are you going to answer my questions another post with out answers will betaken as concession.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 15:56:19
Subject: Psychic Shriek and CCB
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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FlingitNow wrote:Yes there is a missing profile as I stated above. Are you going to answer my questions another post with out answers will betaken as concession.
In order for Psychic Shriek to be resolved as a witchfire, the missing profile needs to be provided, so that you can resolve the roll to hit step and the roll to wound step. Otherwise we don't have enough rules to resolve those steps. The missing profile can be inferred from the rules and information we have about Psychic Shriek.
Enfeeble and Haemorrhage don't work on vehicles, per the rules.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/22 16:08:45
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 16:12:17
Subject: Psychic Shriek and CCB
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Enfeeble isn't a characteristic test but a modifier. Automatically Appended Next Post: Do vehicles have a Toughness character missing yes or no?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/22 16:12:53
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 16:16:12
Subject: Psychic Shriek and CCB
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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FlingitNow wrote:Enfeeble isn't a characteristic test but a modifier.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do vehicles have a Toughness character missing yes or no?
Vehicles don't have a Toughness characteristic. It is not missing. It is simply not part of a vehicle's definition. Vehicles cannot take Toughness tests and you cannot modify characteristics that a vehicle does not have. This is all per the rules.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/22 16:19:41
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 16:26:31
Subject: Psychic Shriek and CCB
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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What rules are you using to make that claim about modifiers?
Ok so:
Psychic Shriek doesn't have a Profile. It is not missing. It is simply not part of a power's definition.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 16:28:31
Subject: Re:Psychic Shriek and CCB
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Killer Klaivex
Oceanside, CA
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Witchfires are shooting attacks... and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons.
Similarly, a whichfire power must roll to hit, unless blah blah blah.
We know that it's shooting.
We know that many, but not all, have profiles similar to ranged weapons.
That last statement, everyone is focusing on the must roll to hit, unless blast/template or it states otherwise.
But what is the difference in meaning between:
A witchfire power must roll to hit,
and
Similarly, as witchfire power must roll to hit,
If Similarly is telling you to refer to the previous statement of weapons with profiles, then you don't need to roll to hit.
Maybe somebody who's more well study English can explain the use of Similarly in the rule.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 16:37:12
Subject: Psychic Shriek and CCB
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Apparently similarly means that this is the strongest rule in the book and you must make up rules to resolve this rule rather than treating it like every other situation where we have an unresolvable action...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 16:40:24
Subject: Psychic Shriek and CCB
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Killer Klaivex
Oceanside, CA
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FlingitNow wrote:Why would saves stop it being a modifier? Do wounds caused modify your wounds characteristic? Just because there are rules that can prevent these permanent modifiers from applying does nothing to stop them being modifiers. Also note how the CCB & Overlord are one model for having wounds applied to them due to sentence 2.
It's the lack of (+1, +2, etc.), subtracting from it (-1, -2, etc.) multiplying it (x2, x3, etc) or setting the value (1,8 etc.)
Psychic Shriek fails this test.
All the other powers that modify, do follow this format:
Iron Arm, Enfeeble, Warp Speed, Banishment, Hammerhand, Sanctuary, Cursed Earth, Terrify, Horrify, Enhance, Drain, Protect, Empower, Enervate and Death Mission all use this format.
RAW, Psychic Shriek it is not a Modifier.
Automatically Appended Next Post: FlingitNow wrote:Apparently similarly means that this is the strongest rule in the book and you must make up rules to resolve this rule rather than treating it like every other situation where we have an unresolvable action...
Sorry, I was asking for help from somebody with Stronger English skills.
Anyone want to help?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/22 16:41:21
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 16:45:27
Subject: Psychic Shriek and CCB
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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What RaW is that on PS? Read what modifiers do. Explain how unsaved wounds do not modify the wounds characteristic.
Yeah I was joking about the similarly. The truth is it is vague.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 16:54:07
Subject: Psychic Shriek and CCB
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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FlingitNow wrote:What rules are you using to make that claim about modifiers?
Ok so:
Psychic Shriek doesn't have a Profile. It is not missing. It is simply not part of a power's definition.
Psychic Shriek is a witchfire. If the profile is missing it needs to be inferred since a profile is required of witchfire. A missing profile is indeed a missing profile in the case of witchfire.
This is the minimum that needs to be inferred to wind up with a psychic shriek that can resolve as witchfire. This by the way is exactly the result that ETC came up with.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/22 16:56:37
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 16:57:23
Subject: Psychic Shriek and CCB
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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The Psychic phase rules disagree with you. As HawaiiMatt posted.
That the ETC decided make up their own nonsensical rules for PS is their perogative. You go to their events you play their rules.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 17:04:48
Subject: Psychic Shriek and CCB
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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FlingitNow wrote:The Psychic phase rules disagree with you. As HawaiiMatt posted.
That the ETC decided make up their own nonsensical rules for PS is their perogative. You go to their events you play their rules.
You aren't reading the Psychic phase rules correctly (as in using good English sense).
The rules read like this . . .
Not this . . .
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 17:06:50
Subject: Psychic Shriek and CCB
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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The Witchfire rules disagree with you, you must roll to hit. If you want to say that none of the witchfire have to roll to hit that's up to you. There is nothing in any of the witchfire powers with profiles that says they have to do anything at all with rolling to hit or wound, they simply have a profile. Is that instructions that override the psychic phase rules?
I have stated before I still use the rules from 6th about models without stats and rules that affect them. Due to the fact that GW makes many assumptions about people's ability to remember from one edition to the next how something should be played.
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ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.
You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 17:08:11
Subject: Re:Psychic Shriek and CCB
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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@ FlingItNow
At any rate, ETC and I have provided a Psychic Shriek that resolves as witchfire.
The solution that you have provided resolves as a malediction.
Check what Psychic Shriek is defined as. (Hint: it's a witchfire). Try again.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/22 17:09:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 17:17:25
Subject: Psychic Shriek and CCB
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Killer Klaivex
Oceanside, CA
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col_impact wrote:
Witchfire powers are shooting attacks. Indeed, they are often referred to as psychic
shooting attacks, and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons.
Good catch.
If many have profiles like ranged weapons, then some have profiles nothing like ranged weapons.
Range 18" is the profile.
Still curious about the use of Similarly before the the statement of must roll to hit.
It's entirely possible to read that as a reference to powers with profiles like ranged weapons.
The requirement to have a target unit, not licked in combat, and in line of sight, is a different sentence and statement than the must roll to hit.
Reading it that way, everything must have a legal target in line of sight. Powers with profiles like ranged weapons must roll to hit, unless template, blast or stated otherwise.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 17:19:04
Subject: Re:Psychic Shriek and CCB
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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@FlingItNOw
Also, my solution is the same solution offered by BAO and NOVA.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
HawaiiMatt wrote:col_impact wrote:
Witchfire powers are shooting attacks. Indeed, they are often referred to as psychic
shooting attacks, and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons.
Good catch.
If many have profiles like ranged weapons, then some have profiles nothing like ranged weapons.
Range 18" is the profile.
Still curious about the use of Similarly before the the statement of must roll to hit.
It's entirely possible to read that as a reference to powers with profiles like ranged weapons.
The requirement to have a target unit, not licked in combat, and in line of sight, is a different sentence and statement than the must roll to hit.
Reading it that way, everything must have a legal target in line of sight. Powers with profiles like ranged weapons must roll to hit, unless template, blast or stated otherwise.
"Similarly" carries no weight in that statement. Longhand, it would read "Just like when shooting a weapon." If it aids your comprehension, you can drop "similarly" from that sentence.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/22 17:36:08
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 17:45:26
Subject: Psychic Shriek and CCB
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Gravmyr wrote:The Witchfire rules disagree with you, you must roll to hit. If you want to say that none of the witchfire have to roll to hit that's up to you. There is nothing in any of the witchfire powers with profiles that says they have to do anything at all with rolling to hit or wound, they simply have a profile. Is that instructions that override the psychic phase rules?
I have stated before I still use the rules from 6th about models without stats and rules that affect them. Due to the fact that GW makes many assumptions about people's ability to remember from one edition to the next how something should be played.
Witchfire rules certainly do not disagree with me. I have never said PS doesn't roll to hit, I've just stated that the roll to hit is unresolvable and irrelevant which is undeniably true.
What are you talking about other witchfires. I really don't get what you're trying to say.
Lots of people who organise tournaments try to use 6th Ed rules for lots of things largely army selection because they are scared their netlist won't be top tier. 6th Ed doesn't have a baring on 7th but Psychic Shriek worked the same in 6th too. Automatically Appended Next Post: At any rate, ETC and I have provided a Psychic Shriek that resolves as witchfire.
The solution that you have provided resolves as a malediction.
Check what Psychic Shriek is defined as. (Hint: it's a witchfire). Try again.
I have not provided the solution the rules have provided a solution that resolves if anything more akin to a focussed witchfire than a Malediction. So we can play your made up rules or play by the actual rules like I suggest. Automatically Appended Next Post: "Similarly" carries no weight in that statement. Longhand, it would read "Just like when shooting a weapon." If it aids your comprehension, you can drop "similarly" from that sentence.
Similarly could also refer to the "many have profiles similar to ranged weapons". It is very vague. Yet it is what your entire rules debate relies upon...
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/22 17:51:01
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 17:55:09
Subject: Re:Psychic Shriek and CCB
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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@FlingItNow:
If we play by your solution, you cannot resolve a roll to hit and you cannot resolve a roll to wound and so you cannot resolve Psychic Shriek. Tell the opponent to re-roll for his psychic power.
My solution infers the minimum required to have psychic shriek resolve as witchfire. It is defined as witchfire by the rules. GW left out information. If you follow the rules strictly, psychic shriek cannot be resolved because the information needed to resolve it as witchfire has not been provided. Automatically Appended Next Post: FlingitNow wrote:
"Similarly" carries no weight in that statement. Longhand, it would read "Just like when shooting a weapon." If it aids your comprehension, you can drop "similarly" from that sentence.
Similarly could also refer to the "many have profiles similar to ranged weapons". It is very vague. Yet it is what your entire rules debate relies upon...
No. It's not vague at all. You are reading it wrong. It's basic English.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/22 17:57:59
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 18:07:33
Subject: Psychic Shriek and CCB
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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If we play by your solution, you cannot resolve a roll to hit and you cannot resolve a roll to wound and so you cannot resolve Psychic Shriek. Tell the opponent to re-roll for his psychic power.
Only if you rule that the game ends if they cast Psychic Shriek? Or indeed if you enfeeble a vehicle or a Libby Dread Ironarms itself. So they might want to keep the power for if they get up on VPs they cast the power and presto game ends. This is your interpretation correct?
Also you keep saying "your solution". Please in future refer to it by RaW as that is what we have proven it is.
My solution infers the minimum required to have psychic shriek resolve as witchfire. It is defined as witchfire by the rules. GW left out information. If you follow the rules strictly, psychic shriek cannot be resolved because the information needed to resolve it as witchfire has not been provided.
Parts don't resolve true but those parts have no effect so it doesn't matter. Your solution is your made up rules. So please clearly mark your posts as HYWPI as I am discussing RaW.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/22 18:22:49
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 18:11:22
Subject: Psychic Shriek and CCB
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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FlingitNow wrote: If we play by your solution, you cannot resolve a roll to hit and you cannot resolve a roll to wound and so you cannot resolve Psychic Shriek. Tell the opponent to re-roll for his psychic power.
Only if you rule that the game ends if they cast Psychic Shriek? Or indeed if you enfeeble a vehicle or a Libby Dread Ironarms itself. So they might want to keep the power for if they get up on VPs they cast the power and presto game ends. This is your interpretation correct?
Also you keep saying "my solution". Please in future refer to it by RaW as that is what we have proven it is.
My solution infers the minimum required to have psychic shriek resolve as witchfire. It is defined as witchfire by the rules. GW left out information. If you follow the rules strictly, psychic shriek cannot be resolved because the information needed to resolve it as witchfire has not been provided.
Parts don't resolve true but those parts have no effect so it doesn't matter. Your solution is your made up rules. So please clearly mark your posts as HYWPI as I am discussing RaW.
My solution is RAW. My solution is "resolve it as witchfire"
Your solution is not RAW. Your solution is "ignore the witchfire bit"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 18:16:42
Subject: Re:Psychic Shriek and CCB
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The Hive Mind
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col_impact wrote:@FlingItNow:
If we play by your solution, you cannot resolve a roll to hit and you cannot resolve a roll to wound and so you cannot resolve Psychic Shriek. Tell the opponent to re-roll for his psychic power.
Why does an inability to roll to wound cause an inability to resolve Psychic Shriek? Are you asserting that Psychic Shriek rolls To Wound?
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 18:18:25
Subject: Psychic Shriek and CCB
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Never Forget Isstvan!
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As far as the whichfires and shooting thing goes:
The rules heavily infer that shooting attacks that have more than 1 shot will always have a profile. This means that shooting attacks without a profile are obviously one shot only.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 18:25:15
Subject: Psychic Shriek and CCB
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Ok so your solution is RaW? Then please tell me the profile of PS and where you are finding this. Please tell me what links the 3d6-ld wounds effect to a successful to hit roll and where in the rules I find this information.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/22 18:28:45
Subject: Re:Psychic Shriek and CCB
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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rigeld2 wrote:col_impact wrote:@FlingItNow:
If we play by your solution, you cannot resolve a roll to hit and you cannot resolve a roll to wound and so you cannot resolve Psychic Shriek. Tell the opponent to re-roll for his psychic power.
Why does an inability to roll to wound cause an inability to resolve Psychic Shriek? Are you asserting that Psychic Shriek rolls To Wound?
I am saying you need to resolve steps 4 and 5 . . .
You only get wounds in step 5 for successful rolls to hit. You only get to resolve Psychic Shriek on successful rolls to hit.
This profile is the minimum required to resolve psychic shriek as witchfire. Notice that I am not saying that Psychic Shriek is requiring a To Wound Roll.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/22 18:34:50
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