Switch Theme:

Psychic Shriek and CCB  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Gravmyr wrote:
Yes they are clear as a Witchfire power you cannot resolve it until you figure out how to roll to hit. Using your line of thinking it is unresolvable so I will be magnanimous and allow you to roll for a different power until it's fixed by GW.

How do you resolve enfeeble against a vehicle? You have no T profile to modify.
   
Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

 FlingitNow wrote:

Yes if you skip the 2nd paragraph and jump to the 3rd you'll get some weird quotes well done.

Sorry, when I was in school, a single line under a title was a header, not a paragraph.
Counting the header as a paragraph, everything your stating hinges on "The target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result" = a modifier like "target unit suffers a -1 penalty"

Where as, page 34 tells us,
Total up the number of Wounds you have caused with the weapons that are firing.

Page 27 tells us that Witchfire powers are shooting attacks, and that Saves can be Taken against Wounds from witchfire in the same way as for any other shooting attack. The weapon firing in this case is "psychic shriek".

Shooting attacks allows saves. I don't see any rules that allow saves for characteristic modifiers.
It looks like Psychic Scream processes as a psychic shooting attack, not a Modifier.

If you can find stronger evidence that psychic shriek is a characteristic modifier as opposed to a shooting attack, then I'd totally agree with you that both the CCB and the Overlord are equally affected.


 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Why would saves stop it being a modifier? Do wounds caused modify your wounds characteristic? Just because there are rules that can prevent these permanent modifiers from applying does nothing to stop them being modifiers. Also note how the CCB & Overlord are one model for having wounds applied to them due to sentence 2.

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




FlingitNow, are you saying that Psychic Shriek isn't missing a profile?
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





col_impact wrote:
FlingitNow, are you saying that Psychic Shriek isn't missing a profile?


I'm saying it doesn't have a profile. I'm saying we deal with that the same way we deal with literally every other incidence of an unresolvable action due to lack of a profile. Now please answer my questions or is this you conceding?

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 FlingitNow wrote:
col_impact wrote:
FlingitNow, are you saying that Psychic Shriek isn't missing a profile?


I'm saying it doesn't have a profile. I'm saying we deal with that the same way we deal with literally every other incidence of an unresolvable action due to lack of a profile. Now please answer my questions or is this you conceding?


Is it missing a profile, yes or no? Or are you conceding?
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Yes there is a missing profile as I stated above. Are you going to answer my questions another post with out answers will betaken as concession.

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 FlingitNow wrote:
Yes there is a missing profile as I stated above. Are you going to answer my questions another post with out answers will betaken as concession.


In order for Psychic Shriek to be resolved as a witchfire, the missing profile needs to be provided, so that you can resolve the roll to hit step and the roll to wound step. Otherwise we don't have enough rules to resolve those steps. The missing profile can be inferred from the rules and information we have about Psychic Shriek.


Enfeeble and Haemorrhage don't work on vehicles, per the rules.

Spoiler:
CHARACTERISTIC TESTS

A model will sometimes be called upon to take a characteristic test. Such a test can be applied against any characteristic that the model has, except for Leadership and Armour Save.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/22 16:08:45


 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Enfeeble isn't a characteristic test but a modifier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do vehicles have a Toughness character missing yes or no?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/22 16:12:53


Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 FlingitNow wrote:
Enfeeble isn't a characteristic test but a modifier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do vehicles have a Toughness character missing yes or no?


Vehicles don't have a Toughness characteristic. It is not missing. It is simply not part of a vehicle's definition. Vehicles cannot take Toughness tests and you cannot modify characteristics that a vehicle does not have. This is all per the rules.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/22 16:19:41


 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





What rules are you using to make that claim about modifiers?

Ok so:

Psychic Shriek doesn't have a Profile. It is not missing. It is simply not part of a power's definition. 

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

Witchfires are shooting attacks... and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons.
Similarly, a whichfire power must roll to hit, unless blah blah blah.

We know that it's shooting.
We know that many, but not all, have profiles similar to ranged weapons.
That last statement, everyone is focusing on the must roll to hit, unless blast/template or it states otherwise.

But what is the difference in meaning between:
A witchfire power must roll to hit,
and
Similarly, as witchfire power must roll to hit,

If Similarly is telling you to refer to the previous statement of weapons with profiles, then you don't need to roll to hit.
Maybe somebody who's more well study English can explain the use of Similarly in the rule.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Apparently similarly means that this is the strongest rule in the book and you must make up rules to resolve this rule rather than treating it like every other situation where we have an unresolvable action...

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why would saves stop it being a modifier? Do wounds caused modify your wounds characteristic? Just because there are rules that can prevent these permanent modifiers from applying does nothing to stop them being modifiers. Also note how the CCB & Overlord are one model for having wounds applied to them due to sentence 2.


It's the lack of (+1, +2, etc.), subtracting from it (-1, -2, etc.) multiplying it (x2, x3, etc) or setting the value (1,8 etc.)
Psychic Shriek fails this test.

All the other powers that modify, do follow this format:
Iron Arm, Enfeeble, Warp Speed, Banishment, Hammerhand, Sanctuary, Cursed Earth, Terrify, Horrify, Enhance, Drain, Protect, Empower, Enervate and Death Mission all use this format.

RAW, Psychic Shriek it is not a Modifier.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 FlingitNow wrote:
Apparently similarly means that this is the strongest rule in the book and you must make up rules to resolve this rule rather than treating it like every other situation where we have an unresolvable action...

Sorry, I was asking for help from somebody with Stronger English skills.
Anyone want to help?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/22 16:41:21


 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





What RaW is that on PS? Read what modifiers do. Explain how unsaved wounds do not modify the wounds characteristic.

Yeah I was joking about the similarly. The truth is it is vague.

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 FlingitNow wrote:
What rules are you using to make that claim about modifiers?

Ok so:

Psychic Shriek doesn't have a Profile. It is not missing. It is simply not part of a power's definition. 


Psychic Shriek is a witchfire. If the profile is missing it needs to be inferred since a profile is required of witchfire. A missing profile is indeed a missing profile in the case of witchfire.

This is the minimum that needs to be inferred to wind up with a psychic shriek that can resolve as witchfire. This by the way is exactly the result that ETC came up with.

Spoiler:

Psychic Shriek
Range: 18"
Str: *
AP: -
Type: Assault 1

* Instead of a to wound roll, roll 3D6 and subtract the target’s Leadership – the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result. Armour and cover saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by Psychic Shriek.



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/22 16:56:37


 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





The Psychic phase rules disagree with you. As HawaiiMatt posted.

That the ETC decided make up their own nonsensical rules for PS is their perogative. You go to their events you play their rules.

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 FlingitNow wrote:
The Psychic phase rules disagree with you. As HawaiiMatt posted.

That the ETC decided make up their own nonsensical rules for PS is their perogative. You go to their events you play their rules.


You aren't reading the Psychic phase rules correctly (as in using good English sense).

The rules read like this . . .
Spoiler:

Witchfire powers are shooting attacks. Indeed, they are often referred to as psychic
shooting attacks, and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons.


Not this . . .

Spoiler:
Witchfire powers are shooting attacks. Indeed, they are often referred to as psychic
shooting attacks, and many have profiles.




   
Made in us
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




Johnson City, NewYork

The Witchfire rules disagree with you, you must roll to hit. If you want to say that none of the witchfire have to roll to hit that's up to you. There is nothing in any of the witchfire powers with profiles that says they have to do anything at all with rolling to hit or wound, they simply have a profile. Is that instructions that override the psychic phase rules?

I have stated before I still use the rules from 6th about models without stats and rules that affect them. Due to the fact that GW makes many assumptions about people's ability to remember from one edition to the next how something should be played.

ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.

You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




@ FlingItNow

At any rate, ETC and I have provided a Psychic Shriek that resolves as witchfire.

The solution that you have provided resolves as a malediction.

Check what Psychic Shriek is defined as. (Hint: it's a witchfire). Try again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/22 17:09:23


 
   
Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

col_impact wrote:

Witchfire powers are shooting attacks. Indeed, they are often referred to as psychic
shooting attacks, and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons.


Good catch.
If many have profiles like ranged weapons, then some have profiles nothing like ranged weapons.
Range 18" is the profile.

Still curious about the use of Similarly before the the statement of must roll to hit.
It's entirely possible to read that as a reference to powers with profiles like ranged weapons.
The requirement to have a target unit, not licked in combat, and in line of sight, is a different sentence and statement than the must roll to hit.

Reading it that way, everything must have a legal target in line of sight. Powers with profiles like ranged weapons must roll to hit, unless template, blast or stated otherwise.


 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




@FlingItNOw

Also, my solution is the same solution offered by BAO and NOVA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 HawaiiMatt wrote:
col_impact wrote:

Witchfire powers are shooting attacks. Indeed, they are often referred to as psychic
shooting attacks, and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons.


Good catch.
If many have profiles like ranged weapons, then some have profiles nothing like ranged weapons.
Range 18" is the profile.

Still curious about the use of Similarly before the the statement of must roll to hit.
It's entirely possible to read that as a reference to powers with profiles like ranged weapons.
The requirement to have a target unit, not licked in combat, and in line of sight, is a different sentence and statement than the must roll to hit.

Reading it that way, everything must have a legal target in line of sight. Powers with profiles like ranged weapons must roll to hit, unless template, blast or stated otherwise.



"Similarly" carries no weight in that statement. Longhand, it would read "Just like when shooting a weapon." If it aids your comprehension, you can drop "similarly" from that sentence.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/22 17:36:08


 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Gravmyr wrote:
The Witchfire rules disagree with you, you must roll to hit. If you want to say that none of the witchfire have to roll to hit that's up to you. There is nothing in any of the witchfire powers with profiles that says they have to do anything at all with rolling to hit or wound, they simply have a profile. Is that instructions that override the psychic phase rules?

I have stated before I still use the rules from 6th about models without stats and rules that affect them. Due to the fact that GW makes many assumptions about people's ability to remember from one edition to the next how something should be played.


Witchfire rules certainly do not disagree with me. I have never said PS doesn't roll to hit, I've just stated that the roll to hit is unresolvable and irrelevant which is undeniably true.

What are you talking about other witchfires. I really don't get what you're trying to say.

Lots of people who organise tournaments try to use 6th Ed rules for lots of things largely army selection because they are scared their netlist won't be top tier. 6th Ed doesn't have a baring on 7th but Psychic Shriek worked the same in 6th too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At any rate, ETC and I have provided a Psychic Shriek that resolves as witchfire. 

The solution that you have provided resolves as a malediction. 

Check what Psychic Shriek is defined as. (Hint: it's a witchfire). Try again.


I have not provided the solution the rules have provided a solution that resolves if anything more akin to a focussed witchfire than a Malediction. So we can play your made up rules or play by the actual rules like I suggest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Similarly" carries no weight in that statement. Longhand, it would read "Just like when shooting a weapon." If it aids your comprehension, you can drop "similarly" from that sentence.


Similarly could also refer to the "many have profiles similar to ranged weapons". It is very vague. Yet it is what your entire rules debate relies upon...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/22 17:51:01


Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




@FlingItNow:

If we play by your solution, you cannot resolve a roll to hit and you cannot resolve a roll to wound and so you cannot resolve Psychic Shriek. Tell the opponent to re-roll for his psychic power.

My solution infers the minimum required to have psychic shriek resolve as witchfire. It is defined as witchfire by the rules. GW left out information. If you follow the rules strictly, psychic shriek cannot be resolved because the information needed to resolve it as witchfire has not been provided.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 FlingitNow wrote:

"Similarly" carries no weight in that statement. Longhand, it would read "Just like when shooting a weapon." If it aids your comprehension, you can drop "similarly" from that sentence.


Similarly could also refer to the "many have profiles similar to ranged weapons". It is very vague. Yet it is what your entire rules debate relies upon...


No. It's not vague at all. You are reading it wrong. It's basic English.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/22 17:57:59


 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





If we play by your solution, you cannot resolve a roll to hit and you cannot resolve a roll to wound and so you cannot resolve Psychic Shriek. Tell the opponent to re-roll for his psychic power. 


Only if you rule that the game ends if they cast Psychic Shriek? Or indeed if you enfeeble a vehicle or a Libby Dread Ironarms itself. So they might want to keep the power for if they get up on VPs they cast the power and presto game ends. This is your interpretation correct?

Also you keep saying "your solution". Please in future refer to it by RaW as that is what we have proven it is.

My solution infers the minimum required to have psychic shriek resolve as witchfire. It is defined as witchfire by the rules. GW left out information. If you follow the rules strictly, psychic shriek cannot be resolved because the information needed to resolve it as witchfire has not been provided.


Parts don't resolve true but those parts have no effect so it doesn't matter. Your solution is your made up rules. So please clearly mark your posts as HYWPI as I am discussing RaW.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/22 18:22:49


Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 FlingitNow wrote:
If we play by your solution, you cannot resolve a roll to hit and you cannot resolve a roll to wound and so you cannot resolve Psychic Shriek. Tell the opponent to re-roll for his psychic power. 


Only if you rule that the game ends if they cast Psychic Shriek? Or indeed if you enfeeble a vehicle or a Libby Dread Ironarms itself. So they might want to keep the power for if they get up on VPs they cast the power and presto game ends. This is your interpretation correct?

Also you keep saying "my solution". Please in future refer to it by RaW as that is what we have proven it is.

My solution infers the minimum required to have psychic shriek resolve as witchfire. It is defined as witchfire by the rules. GW left out information. If you follow the rules strictly, psychic shriek cannot be resolved because the information needed to resolve it as witchfire has not been provided.


Parts don't resolve true but those parts have no effect so it doesn't matter. Your solution is your made up rules. So please clearly mark your posts as HYWPI as I am discussing RaW.


My solution is RAW. My solution is "resolve it as witchfire"

Your solution is not RAW. Your solution is "ignore the witchfire bit"
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





col_impact wrote:
@FlingItNow:

If we play by your solution, you cannot resolve a roll to hit and you cannot resolve a roll to wound and so you cannot resolve Psychic Shriek. Tell the opponent to re-roll for his psychic power.

Why does an inability to roll to wound cause an inability to resolve Psychic Shriek? Are you asserting that Psychic Shriek rolls To Wound?

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!






As far as the whichfires and shooting thing goes:

The rules heavily infer that shooting attacks that have more than 1 shot will always have a profile. This means that shooting attacks without a profile are obviously one shot only.

JOIN MY CRUSADE and gain 4000 RT points!
http://www.eternalcrusade.com/account/sign-up/?ref_code=EC-PLCIKYCABW8PG 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Ok so your solution is RaW? Then please tell me the profile of PS and where you are finding this. Please tell me what links the 3d6-ld wounds effect to a successful to hit roll and where in the rules I find this information.

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




rigeld2 wrote:
col_impact wrote:
@FlingItNow:

If we play by your solution, you cannot resolve a roll to hit and you cannot resolve a roll to wound and so you cannot resolve Psychic Shriek. Tell the opponent to re-roll for his psychic power.

Why does an inability to roll to wound cause an inability to resolve Psychic Shriek? Are you asserting that Psychic Shriek rolls To Wound?


I am saying you need to resolve steps 4 and 5 . . .

Spoiler:

The Shooting Sequence
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but
has yet to do so this turn.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models
equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the
target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one
visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in
range, cannot shoot.
4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines
what it must roll in order to hit the target.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the
target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing
weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.
6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties. Any Wounds caused by the firing
unit must now be allocated, one at a time, to the closest model in the target
unit. A model with a Wound allocated to it can take a saving throw (if it has
one) to avoid being wounded. If a model is reduced to 0 Wounds, it is removed
as a casualty. Wounds are then allocated to the next closest model. Continue to
allocate Wounds and take saving throws until all Wounds have been resolved.
7. Select Another Weapon. After resolving all shots from the currently selected
weapon, if the firing unit is equipped with differently named weapons that
have yet to fire, select another weapon and repeat steps 3 to 6.


You only get wounds in step 5 for successful rolls to hit. You only get to resolve Psychic Shriek on successful rolls to hit.

This profile is the minimum required to resolve psychic shriek as witchfire. Notice that I am not saying that Psychic Shriek is requiring a To Wound Roll.

Spoiler:

Psychic Shriek
Range: 18"
Str: *
AP: -
Type: Assault 1

* Instead of a to wound roll, roll 3D6 and subtract the target’s Leadership – the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result. Armour and cover saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by Psychic Shriek.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/22 18:34:50


 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K You Make Da Call
Go to: