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 BlackTalos wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Chariots are told to allocate hits, so the single hit can be allocated to either the vehicle or rider. The vehicle is considered to have its rider's leadership of 10 so we can resolve the 3d6-10 as per psychic shriek.

3. The wounds hit the vehicle and disapear (making up rules here).

Not really. The Vehicle has no Leadership, only the Rider.

3. Is not making up rules. It is simply un-resolvable because the owner decided the Shooting attack Hits the Vehicle (Which he's allowed to do).

Cool so by that you agree there is no to hit roll for Psychic shriek as that is literally what you have claimed in the case of an action being unresolvable due to lack of relevant profile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
We know witchfires roll to hit.

Correct.

We know that if you roll to hit and miss the attack is discarded (there is litterally no case in the rules where a miss on a to hit roll still counts as a hit).

Incorrect. If you miss there is no to wound roll made any other effects from the attack will still take place unless they specify otherwise.

We know that chariots share both the rider and vehicles profile (so it does have a leadership score).

We can resolve psychic shriek with no issues.

False they have separate stat lines.

Chariots are told to allocate hits, so the single hit can be allocated to either the vehicle or rider. The vehicle is considered to have its rider's leadership of 10 so we can resolve the 3d6-10 as per psychic shriek.

Hits yes you can assign the undefined number of hits to the chariot you then MUST roll armour pen for those hits. The unit still takes 3d6-LD wounds.

The spell only deals wounds. This means whether you allocate the hit to the barge or the lord, wounds are generated.

Since the vehicle has no wounds you are left with only 2 options:

1. The rider has to take the saves, since his portion of the characteristic chart is the only one with wounds.

2. The chariot suffer glancing hits for each wound inflicted (making up rules here).

3. The wounds hit the vehicle and disapear (making up rules here).


We are only left with 1 as somthing we can do since the other 2 options are completely out of the scope of the rules set.

Yes also choosing 3 is entirely inconsistent with deciding that PS generates hits.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
We know that chariots share both the rider and vehicles profile (so it does have a leadership score).

We can resolve psychic shriek with no issues.

Chariots are told to allocate hits, so the single hit can be allocated to either the vehicle or rider. The vehicle is considered to have its rider's leadership of 10 so we can resolve the 3d6-10 as per psychic shriek.

The vehicle does not have "the rider's leadership score". The vehicle HAS no leadership score. It doesn't matter that they share a profile. The vehicle profile, is still the vehicle profile, and as such, it has NO leadership score.

By your faulty logic, bolters still cause wounds on the chariot model, because even if you allocate the hits to the vehicle, the vehicle shares the Wounds characteristic of the rider, so you can roll to Wound even if I allocated the hits to the vehicle.

So no.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a side note, the official ruling for this year's ETC (though I doubt the majority of dakka has heard of it, or cares one bit ) was the following concerning this very issue:

"When manifesting Witchfires or Focussed Witchfires that do not follow the normal shooting process, make
one to hit roll to see if the power connects like in the case of Psychic Shriek."

"Shooting attacks (e.g. Necron Abyssal Staff), Psychic shooting attacks (e.g. Psychic Shriek) or
abilities/wargear (e.g. Obsidian Orb) that do not roll for armor penetration (e.g. because they
use Leadership values as reference value to resolve wounds or effects) can only be resolved if
the hit is allocated to the rider. If the hit is allocated to the chariot, it will have no effect on the
model."

Malvun thats simply not true.

Bolters can attempt a penetration roll and so wounding never comes up when the bolter hits are allocated to the vehicle.


If an attack has a str score, it can attempt to pen the armor. Whether or not it actually can penetrate or not doesnt matter.


Psychic shriek can never penetrate AV as it has no strength score. It just deals wounds.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Malvun thats simply not true.

Bolters can attempt a penetration roll and so wounding never comes up when the bolter hits are allocated to the vehicle.


If an attack has a str score, it can attempt to pen the armor. Whether or not it actually can penetrate or not doesnt matter.


Psychic shriek can never penetrate AV as it has no strength score. It just deals wounds.

And Psychic shriek is LD based, and the vehicle has no LD characteristic in its profile, nor does it have any wounds to allocate to it. You don't magically get to use the rider's Leadership for some attacks, but don't get to use the rider's wounds for other attacks.

Do you agree that both the rider and the chariot are a single model (cause if you don't, your breaking rules)?

Then there is indeed a LD value for psychic shriek to affect.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Do you agree that both the rider and the chariot are a single model (cause if you don't, your breaking rules)?

Then there is indeed a LD value for psychic shriek to affect.

Do you agree that you select a profile and THAT is the profile affected by the attack (cause if you don't, you're breaking rules) ?

Then there is no LD value for psychic shriek to affect.

So I suggest that since we are both breaking rules we actually use the way that can be resolved instead of a way that cant.

Actually moves the game along..........

Do you agree that you select a profile and THAT is the profile affected by the attack (cause if you don't, you're breaking rules) ? 

I disagree with this statement as do the rules. Hits from a shooting attack are resolved against the allocated profile not the entire attack. This is different because for example a shooting attack from an assault 20 weapon could do 10 hits to each profile, or in the case of PS the 3d6-ld effect is still applied to the unit as a whole.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

And Psychic shriek is LD based, and the vehicle has no LDcharacteristic in its profile, nor does it have any wounds to allocate to it. You don't magically get to use the rider's Leadership for some attacks, but don't get to use the rider's wounds for other attacks.

Yet you do magically get an assault 1 profile for Psychic Shriek and magically tie that to the 3d6-ld effect? This is your concession if you believe that when you have an unresolvable situation due to lack of profile that you ignore it and move on rather than magically get numbers from elsewhere to resolve it, then you believe that PS foes not roll to hit. So why are you still arguing?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh it looks like Imperial Knights are going to be terrible at ETC or indeed any vehicle as it insta dies to Psychic Shriek as they count as Ld1 & 1 wound due to that FAQ which says if an unresolvable situation due to lack of relevant profile exists then you count the profile as being 1.

 FlingitNow wrote:

I disagree with this statement as do the rules. Hits from a shooting attack are resolved against the allocated profile not the entire attack. This is different because for example a shooting attack from an assault 20 weapon could do 10 hits to each profile, or in the case of PS the 3d6-ld effect is still applied to the unit as a whole.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yet you do magically get an assault 1 profile for Psychic Shriek and magically tie that to the 3d6-ld effect? This is your concession if you believe that when you have an unresolvable situation due to lack of profile that you ignore it and move on rather than magically get numbers from elsewhere to resolve it, then you believe that PS foes not roll to hit. So why are you still arguing?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh it looks like Imperial Knights are going to be terrible at ETC or indeed any vehicle as it insta dies to Psychic Shriek as they count as Ld1 & 1 wound due to that FAQ which says if an unresolvable situation due to lack of relevant profile exists then you count the profile as being 1.

Yes, I'm aware that you support the notion that the effect pf witchfire spells still goes off despite the hit not being made, and I disagree with it fully. If the effect of a witchfire spell could go off without needing a hit, there would not be an additional rule for it, saying they NEED to roll to hit.

Yes, I've said I think 4 times now, that my concession is that since it doesn't have a proper shooting profile, you get 1 attack, and I stopped arguing with you, in case you didn't notice, and was discussing with Eihnlazer.

I'm curious as to which FAQ you're referring to that states that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
So I suggest that since we are both breaking rules we actually use the way that can be resolved instead of a way that cant.

Actually moves the game along..........

True, anybody that uses Psychic Shriek in ANY way is breaking the rules, since it's currently an unplayable power, without some sort of house rule, and I've mentioned ours in earlier posts.

Yes, I've said I think 4 times now, that my concession is that since it doesn't have a proper shooting profile, you get 1 attack, and I stopped arguing with you, in case you didn't notice, and was discussing with Eihnlazer.

I'm curious as to which FAQ you're referring to that states that.

Well both your interpretation that no profile = make it up to be a 1 and the ETC FAQ saying the same. That is your rules interpretation.

Yes, I'm aware that you support the notion that the effect pf witchfire spells still goes off despite the hit not being made, and I disagree with it fully. If the effect of a witchfire spell could go off without needing a hit, there would not be an additional rule for it, saying they NEED to roll to hit.

Please don't lie it is not helpful. You know full well there is no rule requiring the power to hit (there is one requiring a to hit roll) and there is no rule stating a to hit roll has ANYTHING to do with the effect.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Yes, I've said I think 4 times now, that my concession is that since it doesn't have a proper shooting profile, you get 1 attack, and I stopped arguing with you, in case you didn't notice, and was discussing with Eihnlazer.

I'm curious as to which FAQ you're referring to that states that.

Well both your interpretation that no profile = make it up to be a 1 and the ETC FAQ saying the same. That is your rules interpretation.

Yes, I'm aware that you support the notion that the effect pf witchfire spells still goes off despite the hit not being made, and I disagree with it fully. If the effect of a witchfire spell could go off without needing a hit, there would not be an additional rule for it, saying they NEED to roll to hit.

Please don't lie it is not helpful. You know full well there is no rule requiring the power to hit (there is one requiring a to hit roll) and there is no rule stating a to hit roll has ANYTHING to do with the effect.

So you're saying that because an FAQ says in a specific instance, for a specific power that doesn't have a shooting profile, that you use 1 to hit roll, that the same FAQ therefore claims that whenever there's a missing characteristic from a profile, you count it as 1 ? That is one interestingly warped way of looking at things you have there Hyperbole aside, I don't think I read the rule you quote anywhere in the FAQ, so if you could point it out to me, that would be appreciated.

Please don't put words in my mouth, I specifically stated that it is a they need to roll to hit. There is no rule anywhere stating that you don't need a hit. The portion at the beginning of the Psychic phase chapter, which you keep citing, refers to psychic powers IN GENERAL, as opposed to witchfire powers, which are explained to be normal shooting attacks, in every respect, to the point where you can even make snapshots with it, you need LoS, you need range, you need to allocate wounds to the closest model, etc.

And from the shooting phase sequence, we know that you stop at the end of Step 4, proceeding to Step 5, the wounding process, only for to roll hits that produced actual hits. This has been said over and over and over again, we're going around in circles. Now you're going to reply saying "Well it has no shooting profile, herpaderpaderp, therefore it needs to work regardless of whether it hits or not" and I'm going to come back saying "no, cause it's a shooting attack", and we're going to keep doing this forever. Let's agree to disagree, and pray that GW get off their lazy asses and put out an FAQ dealing with this nonsense.

So please explain to why you would treat the to hit roll differently to the wound roll and the 3d6-ld roll? Why are you sometimes making up profiles when you don't have a relevant one and sometimes ignoring the unresolvable process?

The shooting phase tells you that you don't do step 5 or the steps after that if you don't hit. Are any of those steps roll 3d6-ld and apply that many wounds?

 FlingitNow wrote:
So please explain to why you would treat the to hit roll differently to the wound roll and the 3d6-ld roll? Why are you sometimes making up profiles when you don't have a relevant one and sometimes ignoring the unresolvable process?

The shooting phase tells you that you don't do step 5 or the steps after that if you don't hit. Are any of those steps roll 3d6-ld and apply that many wounds?

That sequence applies to any shooting attack. PS is a shooting attack. No further explanations required.

Sorry but can you the answer questions.

Is 3d6-ld wounds a step in the shooting phase, please point to it.

Why do you treat the roll to hit differently to the exact same situation every other time it occurs?

Mav - please cite a rule requiring a hit before you resolve the rest of the power

You cannot do this, so please stop asserting there is a requirement. There isn't. It doesn't exist.

It is important to note that as a Psychic Shooting Attack, if you roll a 6 to Hit you may allocate it to the Rider.

Also, just to throw in my $.02, I would say that you cannot pass the psychic shriek onto the rider if the player wanted it on the chariot. The Chariot has no LD, and the rules don't say that stats carry over between the rider and chariot, only modifications of stats(ie that is why you don't treat the CCB has having 3 wounds and toughness 5, which would follow your logic of assigning the Riders LD10 to the Chariot). Since the vehicle has no wounds to subtract from, the attack is useless

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Mav - please cite a rule requiring a hit before you resolve the rest of the power

You cannot do this, so please stop asserting there is a requirement. There isn't. It doesn't exist.

I have already. You can find it in the BRB under Witchfire powers, where it states that it's a shooting attack.

I've been repeating myself far too long in this thread. If you don't consider the To Wound part of the PS attack, as the 3d6-Ld, then it's automatically failed, as it has no Strength, so you can't resolve step 5 of the Shooting Sequence, and the "resolve according to entry" does not supersede the fact that it's a witchfire spell, with a very clear rule, that makes it a shooting attack.

I've been repeating myself far too long in this thread. If you don't consider the To Wound part of the PS attack, as the 3d6-Ld, then it's automatically failed, as it has no Strength, so you can't resolve step 5 of the Shooting Sequence, and the "resolve according to entry" does not supersede the fact that it's a witchfire spell, with a very clear rule, that makes it a shooting attack. 

And once again you contradict both yourself and the rules. If the 3d6-ld is step 5 THEN it autofails due to no strength. The fact that it is in no way step 5 is what makes it work. Also why are you saying no profile means we do not perform the step when you repeatedly claim that no profile means we make up a number to complete the step? Read Step 5 andthen tell me where it states roll 3d6-ld, tell me where in Psychic Shriek it says that the 3d6-ld is a replacement to normal step 5.

Also why to you keep refusing to answer the question of why you choose to treat the roll to hit differently to every other instance of an unresolvable situation due to lack of a profile? Why? Further refusal to answer this question will be taken as your concession as you are clearly trolling at this point.

 Mavlun wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Mav - please cite a rule requiring a hit before you resolve the rest of the power

You cannot do this, so please stop asserting there is a requirement. There isn't. It doesn't exist.

I have already. You can find it in the BRB under Witchfire powers, where it states that it's a shooting attack.

I've been repeating myself far too long in this thread. If you don't consider the To Wound part of the PS attack, as the 3d6-Ld, then it's automatically failed, as it has no Strength, so you can't resolve step 5 of the Shooting Sequence, and the "resolve according to entry" does not supersede the fact that it's a witchfire spell, with a very clear rule, that makes it a shooting attack.

Incorrect, nothing in witchfire requires a succesful to hit before you cN resolve the rest. Try again, or concede and Mark your posts as hywpi, as they have absolutely no rules basis. None.

Lets assume for a minute that a hit roll is required. We hit with a roll of a 5. Necron play then allocates the hit to the vehicle.

This is where is gets tricky.

PS tells us to roll 3d6 and compare to the unit's LD. While the hit might have been allocated to the vehicle, the rules for PS clearly tell us to use the unit's LD, which would be the rider in this case, as his is the only LD vlaue for the unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Incorrect, nothing in witchfire requires a succesful to hit before you cN resolve the rest. Try again, or concede and Mark your posts as hywpi, as they have absolutely no rules basis. None.

You're claiming that shooting attacks do not need to score hits in order to wound. Your opinion is moot.

 Mavlun wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Incorrect, nothing in witchfire requires a succesful to hit before you cN resolve the rest. Try again, or concede and Mark your posts as hywpi, as they have absolutely no rules basis. None.

You're claiming that shooting attacks do not need to score hits in order to wound. Your opinion is moot.

Shooting attacks need to roll to hit and hit in order to roll to wound. Most shooting attacks have no other way to cause wounds, however this is not true for all shooting attacks as Psychic Shriek proves. His opinion on this matter is just stating what the rulebook states. Your opinion is that you make up random rules as and when it suits you.

The fact you have still refused to answer the question proves you know your interpretation is in correct and proves you are simply trolling at this point. Your concession is accepted.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Lets assume for a minute that a hit roll is required. We hit with a roll of a 5. Necron play then allocates the hit to the vehicle.

This is where is gets tricky.

PS tells us to roll 3d6 and compare to the unit's LD. While the hit might have been allocated to the vehicle, the rules for PS clearly tell us to use the unit's LD, which would be the rider in this case, as his is the only LD vlaue for the unit.

I agree with this being an issue, and I think it is what many people miss. Psychic shriek does not go off a model hit in a units LD but the LD of the unit, and allocating it to the vehicle profile doesn't change that the unit has a LD value, which would come into question on any other LD test.

Generation of wounds on the chariot would still reduce the wounds characteristic of the rider as per that its a modification of a characteristic, and the RAW for chariots states that it applies to both rider and chariot if it is a characteristic modifier.

Many people put forth the false idea that it makes no sense because then you could fire bolters and if allocated to the chariot would cause wounds to the rider which does not apply because when you allocate that hit to the chariot you do affect based on the model and not the unit value, and obviously when you are rolling S vs. AV you cannot generate wounds as that generates no effect/glance/pens.

This also of course touches on the question on LD tests for models that are in units with vehicles, which is very very rare but does occur in things like the helcult formation. If you used psychic shriek on it, and the helbrute was the closest model, normally the helbrute would be the target hit, but it has no LD value. Does this mean psychic shriek does nothing? No, as the rules state it uses the UNITS LD value, so despite the model hit not having an LD value the unit does, which is the LD of the cultists. Obviously you cannot put wounds on the helbrute and have them do anything, but in the case of chariots we do have an option to apply a characteristic modifier to the chariot and as per RAW it affects the rider and chariot. Wounds is a characterisitc, and reducing it is a modifier. Normally we cannot put wounds on a chariot due to not being able to generate wounds under 'normal situations' against a vehicle, but the chariot rules call out that we can in this instance- and that they will also apply to the rider.

 Mavlun wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Incorrect, nothing in witchfire requires a succesful to hit before you cN resolve the rest. Try again, or concede and Mark your posts as hywpi, as they have absolutely no rules basis. None.

You're claiming that shooting attacks do not need to score hits in order to wound. Your opinion is moot.

No, I am being very precise in stating that in order to roll to-wound you must have a succesful to-hit. As those are actual rules, unlike your baseless opinion which contradicts the rules of this forum. If you could follow the tenets that would be peachy, thanks

Find a rule stating that in order to resolve a witchfire non-to-wound effects you must hve a successful to-hit roll.

Continued refusal to provide a single relevant rules quote is concession.

What about Pask and Chronus? Since they have a leadership characterisitic, can they be targeted with Psychic Shriek as well? What about embarked passengers on a transport?

 Sautek Supreme wrote:
What about Pask and Chronus? Since they have a leadership characterisitic, can they be targeted with Psychic Shriek as well? What about embarked passengers on a transport?

That depends on your interpretation. If you believe unresolvable actions due to lack of relevant profile are ignored and thus PS does not roll to hit you apply it to those models but any wounds it causes do nothing. However if you believe that you roll to hit for PS then yes PS effects those units and as soon as it does 1 wound they die.

Lets look at how Psychic Scream wounds normal units.

I've got a Squad of a single surviving Tau Fire Warriors (ld7), a Shas'ui (Ld8) and have Dark Strider attached (ld9).
A fire warrior is the closest.
Psychic Scream hits with the arbitrary to hit role.
12 is rolled on 3D6.

What leadership do you use?
How many wounds are inflicted?
Who takes those wounds?
How are models who weren't hit taking wounds?

Once you can RAW how psychic shriek works on a normal target, then you can tackle a CCB.


I'm going to bet that if it ever get's FAQ'd, that psychic shriek will get the Soul Fright treatment (preventing you from allocating to models who are immune).

-Matt

blaktoof wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Lets assume for a minute that a hit roll is required. We hit with a roll of a 5. Necron play then allocates the hit to the vehicle.

This is where is gets tricky.

PS tells us to roll 3d6 and compare to the unit's LD. While the hit might have been allocated to the vehicle, the rules for PS clearly tell us to use the unit's LD, which would be the rider in this case, as his is the only LD vlaue for the unit.

I agree with this being an issue, and I think it is what many people miss. Psychic shriek does not go off a model hit in a units LD but the LD of the unit, and allocating it to the vehicle profile doesn't change that the unit has a LD value, which would come into question on any other LD test.

Except it doesn't. The unit uses the profile of where the hit is allocated - there exists no permission to use the LD of the other profile.

Generation of wounds on the chariot would still reduce the wounds characteristic of the rider as per that its a modification of a characteristic, and the RAW for chariots states that it applies to both rider and chariot if it is a characteristic modifier.

Reducing wounds is not a characteristic modifier.

This also of course touches on the question on LD tests for models that are in units with vehicles, which is very very rare but does occur in things like the helcult formation. If you used psychic shriek on it, and the helbrute was the closest model, normally the helbrute would be the target hit, but it has no LD value. Does this mean psychic shriek does nothing?

Yes.

No, as the rules state it uses the UNITS LD value, so despite the model hit not having an LD value the unit does, which is the LD of the cultists.

Quote the rule that says the unit's LD is some "majority rules" thing.

Reducing wounds is a characteristic modifier, state how you change a models wound characteristic from 1-0 without modifying it by the RAW.

blaktoof wrote:
Reducing wounds is a characteristic modifier, state how you change a models wound characteristic from 1-0 without modifying it by the RAW.

The model gets to make a saving throw, if it has one. If it fails, reduce that model’s Wounds by 1. If the model is reduced to 0 Wounds, remove it as a casualty.

Doesn't reference the modifier rules at all.