I'd merge the following:
Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Space Marines- Space Marines (w/ Space Wolves, Iron Hands & White Scars/ Raven Guard supplements)
Grey Knights & Sisters Of Battle- Inquisition (Also Add Deathwatch)
Chaos Space Marines & Chaos Daemons- Forces Of Chaos (w/ Iron Warriors, Night Lords & Sons Of Malice Supplements)
Militarum Tempestus+ Astra Militarum- Imperial Guard
Codices I Would Add:
Mechanicum (Would Absorb Imperial Knights)
Rak'Gol (Awesome Reptillian Pirates Who Would Be The 40K Alternative To Lizardmen)
That Would Lead Us With:
Codex: Imperial Guard
Codex: Mechanicum
Codex: Inquisition
Codex: Space Marines
Codex: Forces Of Chaos
Codex: Eldar
Codex; Dark Eldar
Codex: Necrons
Codex: Orks
Codex: Tau Empire
Codex; Tyranids
Codex: Rak'Gol
Didn't even need to think about it. Their fluff is so poorly written, contradictory, and obnoxious it'd be doing them a favor, to say nothing of Santa Grimnar and Wolf Riders.
If they had to be replaced, bring in the Adeptus Mechanicus, something truly interesting and different and not just the generic core army slathered up in Wovlerine fanfic.
None, but I really wish that Farsight Enclaves was either removed or changed to not be Battle-Brothers with Tau, considering they're actively hostile towards one another constantly....
Blood angels, dark angels. They're so similar to the vanilla marines that with a little bit of adjusting they could have easily been in the same codex. Until the 5th and 6th edition codices came along.
Maybe sisters of battle just to end their misery.
Tyranids. Their concept is so silly it's not even funny. Living weapons waste massive amounts of energy, recycling them wastes even more. And living space ships is the stupidest idea ever in a universe where ships fight with massive broadsides and even try ramming. If these things actually needed to reach another galaxy they would be Necrons. As they are, they died the first time they attacked an inhabited planet. They used too much energy on winning and much too much more on converting it to something they could use. Whatever they get form a conquest is less than they need to live. They're dead.
I said imperial knights, only because a single model does not a codex make. They could easily have been in IA, or escalation, or something.
Were I to bring in a new army, I'd try to shoehorn another xeno race in there, I think. Perhaps a port of skaven or lizardmen, or some weird version of VCs.
Telmenari wrote:None, but I really wish that Farsight Enclaves was either removed or changed to not be Battle-Brothers with Tau, considering they're actively hostile towards one another constantly....
Though this is an interesting idea. Split tau into two codices like how they have eldar and dark eldar. You could have one ridiculous mary-sue meccha kawaii super battling seizure robots army, and then dump the rest of the stuff into a real army. The auxiliaries (with a few additions, perhaps a skaven or lizardmen unit), as well as the firewarriors and etherials. A sort of gritty revolutionary army to contrast the ban-dai action figure thing. Tau insurgents or separatists, or "true believers" or whatever. Sort of like a chaos tau, but without the demons. Like DE, really.
I put in Tau because they're the only one that's an actual army that I'd remove; they don't fit with the tone or the aesthetic of the game very well.
That said if I had my way there would be nine army books (including the Tau) with any material that GW wants to package as a 'supplement' and sell for an extra $30 included as appendixes and multiple different sets of list restrictions as needed:
Space Marines
Imperial Guard
Inquisition
Eldar
Forces of Chaos
Orks
Necrons
Tau
Tyranids
Tyranids. I hate their models almost as much as I hate their fluff, so I wouldn't hesitate one bit to remove them. And I wouldn't replace them with anything, 40k has way too many armies already and I'd remove more of them if I had the opportunity. But getting rid of Tyranids is the top priority.
Orks. Immediate answer.
They simply would not and could not function on any level that would make them even remotely threatening in the 40k universe... Yet they magically are. No explanation.
They're too cartoony. They don't fit atmosphere of the game.
I can't stand how they always magically happen to have whatever unconstrained abilities needed to do whatever they want from the moment they're born, yet still be halfwits.
The explanations justifying all of the above are always just as shallow as the fluff itself.
grey knights all the way - totally detracts from the 'space marines are man's last hope' thing and kinda says 'space marines are mans last hope, but sometimes they aren't pure enough so we had to make a special un-corruptible marine force with different equipment who are definetly un-corruptable'
cause anything in the 40k cannon is absolute? my arse.
AnomanderRake wrote: I put in Tau because they're the only one that's an actual army that I'd remove; they don't fit with the tone or the aesthetic of the game very well.
Most people that say this just don't understand the Tau. They might not slaughter everything in their path just for fun, but they're one of the most grimdark things about the setting. Remember, the Tau are a generic expansionist empire that would be the bad guys in almost any other setting. Their only redeeming quality is that they're pragmatic enough to offer you a chance to surrender and become slaves before they kill you, and use science and engineering to build practical weapons that kill you as efficiently as possible instead of throwing a bunch of purity seals on some WWI-era junk and hoping for the best. And this is the closet thing 40k has to a "good" faction! It's really hard to do a better job of saying "hope is dead" than that.
With so many regiments, all with potentially different tactics, uniforms, weapons, mindset and worlds there would be endless customization, rules and models to make and use.
All the other races have horrid fluff and many of them look lame to me. Eliminate them all.
With so many regiments, all with potentially different tactics, uniforms, weapons, mindset and worlds there would be endless customization, rules and models to make and use.
All the other races have horrid fluff and many of them look lame to me. Eliminate them all.
Eliminate them all. And ig too. Best setting ever.
SirDonlad wrote: grey knights all the way - totally detracts from the 'space marines are man's last hope' thing and kinda says 'space marines are mans last hope, but sometimes they aren't pure enough so we had to make a special un-corruptible marine force with different equipment who are definetly un-corruptable'
cause anything in the 40k cannon is absolute? my arse.
They're uncorrectable, except when they're not and need to kill Battle Sisters for extra extra purity!
My vote went to Imperial Knights. It just seems pointless having a whole Codex dedicated to what should, ostensibly be, a Support Unit. Somewhere on Dakka there is a thread asking if 40k is too bloated. Daft things like Imperial Knights having their own book are adding to the bloated-ness of the game. Imperial Knights should jut be a support choice in the SM Codices, IG and Chaos 'Dex's. That's it.
£25 for a 64 page book giving you the rules for TWO units!? WTF?
With so many regiments, all with potentially different tactics, uniforms, weapons, mindset and worlds there would be endless customization, rules and models to make and use.
All the other races have horrid fluff and many of them look lame to me. Eliminate them all.
Eliminate them all. And ig too. Best setting ever.
I would happily spend a lot of money on a setting thats Imperial Guard themed without all the other junk. I could imagine the joy of facing other Guard Armies and comparing models and seeing conversions etc that arent tainted by bland models or bland fluff.
With so many regiments, all with potentially different tactics, uniforms, weapons, mindset and worlds there would be endless customization, rules and models to make and use.
All the other races have horrid fluff and many of them look lame to me. Eliminate them all.
Eliminate them all. And ig too. Best setting ever.
I would happily spend a lot of money on a setting thats Imperial Guard themed without all the other junk. I could imagine the joy of facing other Guard Armies and comparing models and seeing conversions etc that arent tainted by bland models or bland fluff.
With so many regiments, all with potentially different tactics, uniforms, weapons, mindset and worlds there would be endless customization, rules and models to make and use.
All the other races have horrid fluff and many of them look lame to me. Eliminate them all.
Eliminate them all. And ig too. Best setting ever.
I would happily spend a lot of money on a setting thats Imperial Guard themed without all the other junk. I could imagine the joy of facing other Guard Armies and comparing models and seeing conversions etc that arent tainted by bland models or bland fluff.
Dude, there are a couple of really good WWII games out there. They'd fit what you're looking for and be a heck of a lot cheaper. Just saying.
With so many regiments, all with potentially different tactics, uniforms, weapons, mindset and worlds there would be endless customization, rules and models to make and use.
All the other races have horrid fluff and many of them look lame to me. Eliminate them all.
Eliminate them all. And ig too. Best setting ever.
I would happily spend a lot of money on a setting thats Imperial Guard themed without all the other junk. I could imagine the joy of facing other Guard Armies and comparing models and seeing conversions etc that arent tainted by bland models or bland fluff.
Dude, there are a couple of really good WWII games out there. They'd fit what you're looking for and be a heck of a lot cheaper. Just saying.
I play many history games. But the problem is if I randomly decided to play say a cold war themed army it would need new terrain and at lleast two armies. With imperial guard I Take whatever theme I please and can have them fight guysfrom whatever theme my oopponent pleases.
That's the advantages of imperial guard overhhistory games.
I said Imperial Knights for the same reasons everyone else said but I think there's quite a number of armies that could do with a good reworking.
I am however loving the Tau schism idea. I always liked the Fire Warriors but was never a super huge fan of all the anime bots so that's something I could get on board with.
Spetulhu wrote: Tyranids. Their concept is so silly it's not even funny. Living weapons waste massive amounts of energy, recycling them wastes even more. And living space ships is the stupidest idea ever in a universe where ships fight with massive broadsides and even try ramming. If these things actually needed to reach another galaxy they would be Necrons. As they are, they died the first time they attacked an inhabited planet. They used too much energy on winning and much too much more on converting it to something they could use. Whatever they get form a conquest is less than they need to live. They're dead.
Peregrine wrote: Tyranids. I hate their models almost as much as I hate their fluff, so I wouldn't hesitate one bit to remove them. And I wouldn't replace them with anything, 40k has way too many armies already and I'd remove more of them if I had the opportunity. But getting rid of Tyranids is the top priority.
"Militarum Tempestus", It just rolls off your tongue!
Seriously, their gothic-steam-punk-lion-heraldry bs doesn't fit the aesthetics of the IG and they feel like a 3rd party model company made them. It doesn't help that their glorified flashlight gun sucks balls.
Also, I'm quite butt hurt that they replaced the awesome Kasrkin models.
I either wouldn't remove any, because removing armies is a dick move, or I'd accept that 40k needs to be consolidated and remove everything that can realistically be removed by compressing them in to smaller tomes. Roll together all expansion armies in to their respective codices.
Removing just 1 army seems like a spiteful thing to do more than a useful thing.
If you just want my least favourite, Grey Knights. They're a silly "super special awesome best of the better than the best" concept, tend towards being unlikable jerks whenever they show up and not in a particularly fun way, have minimal actual personality, ugly models and a drab grey paint scheme.
The only real pro to them I can see is marine players having the option to field more psykers. There's other ways to get a terminator themed force on the table.
As for armies I'd like to see: Sisters actually a real army with support rather than an Ebook tossed together for an old model line they've not quite discontinued yet. After that, Mechanicum or Rak'gol.
changemod wrote: If you just want my least favourite, Grey Knights. They're a silly "super special awesome best of the better than the best" concept, tend towards being unlikable jerks whenever they show up and not in a particularly fun way, have minimal actual personality, ugly models and a drab grey paint scheme.
That and the PAGK torsos don't fit any of the other SM torsos outside of their own kit, which results in you butchering them to make them fit.
Did everyone forget that legion of the damned have their own codex?
I vote legion of the damned as they are already in the space marines codex, the harlequin codex when or if it comes out as its already in the eldar codex and stormtroopers as they are in the imperial guard codex. Assassins are also missing from the poll but they would be fine if they, inquisition and grey knights were one codex again.
Sisters Of Battle - Nuke 'em, if not for the constant moaning of their fanbase, then for the simple idea of nuns with guns. Stick them in Inquisition at least or with Grey Knights.
Imperial Guard - merge with Astra Militarum
Space Marines - Expand and merge with Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels
Grey Knights - Merge with SoB
Blood Angels - Merge with SM or nuke
Dark Angels - Merge with SM or nuke
Space Wolves - Merge with SM or nuke
Orks - Awesome, keep the same
Tau - I hate Tau, but I see they have a point. Keep 'em
Chaos Space Marines - Need some expansion if the Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Blood Angels are allowed to persist as separate codices.
Chaos Daemons - Awesome, keep the same
Imperial Knights - Merge into new Codex: Mechanicum
Necrons - Awesome, Keep them
Eldar - Awesome, Keep them
Dark Eldar - Let's go back to the previous codex and forget this 7th Ed. shortened version, Keep them
Tyranids - I love them, keep and expand
Militarum Tempestus - are these guys still around? Bin them or merge with Astra Militarum
'Nids.......just cant stand them. From the very get go I couldn't stand them. Ugly ass models; (and not in a good way) way too samey. Their fluff sucks too. After the gurning bugs, I'd nuke BA and SW. Never been a fan - strawberry marines and wannabe space Vikings done badly. Out ya go!
I'd also merge all loyalist marines into one book, and do away with Militarum Tempestumuisisuvius. And do something with Knights, either roll them into some other book (new or otherwise) or make them an actual codex of multiple units and options, kind of like what FW did.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I either wouldn't remove any, because removing armies is a dick move, or I'd accept that 40k needs to be consolidated and remove everything that can realistically be removed by compressing them in to smaller tomes. Roll together all expansion armies in to their respective codices.
Removing just 1 army seems like a spiteful thing to do more than a useful thing.
This is pretty much what would happen if they were to follow the WFB end times pattern.
I honestly think an inquisition codex would be great, being able to take a full GK, full sob, full DW or full inquisitional army would be cool out of 1 codex or to mic and match for a combined force.. special detachments and FOC for each and a normal for mixed.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I either wouldn't remove any, because removing armies is a dick move, or I'd accept that 40k needs to be consolidated and remove everything that can realistically be removed by compressing them in to smaller tomes. Roll together all expansion armies in to their respective codices.
Removing just 1 army seems like a spiteful thing to do more than a useful thing.
This is pretty much what would happen if they were to follow the WFB end times pattern.
I honestly think an inquisition codex would be great, being able to take a full GK, full sob, full DW or full inquisitional army would be cool out of 1 codex or to mic and match for a combined force.. special detachments and FOC for each and a normal for mixed.
Space Wolves. They're yet another PA army with dumb fluff, dumb models and even dumber names. The idea of them is cool but, honestly, I think GW butchered them.
Like others have said roll up all the IOM factions into a single codex, cut nothing just because I don't like the fluff/crunch of an army doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. However, I would bring back Genestealer Cult armies.
With so many regiments, all with potentially different tactics, uniforms, weapons, mindset and worlds there would be endless customization, rules and models to make and use.
All the other races have horrid fluff and many of them look lame to me. Eliminate them all.
Eliminate them all. And ig too. Best setting ever.
In the grim darkness of the future, there are only rocks.
They get along pretty well. I mean, as well as non-sentient rocks can.
A game consists of players putting their rocks on the table, and then chatting for a couple of hours. Whoever wins is declared the winner.
Telmenari wrote: None, but I really wish that Farsight Enclaves was either removed or changed to not be Battle-Brothers with Tau, considering they're actively hostile towards one another constantly....
Your tau fluff knowledge needs to be repaired.
While they are OFFICIALLY hostile, even that is one-sided (empire to enclaves, but not the reverse), they don't actually fight each other, and the enclaves have assisted the empire at defending against outer threats (than packed up and left)
Plus, much of the empire is sympathetic towards the enclaves.
The "hostility" between the two is only the creed of the ethreals, but in reality the two coexist fine.
I put down the Tempestus, but frankly I think the more armies, the better. Different flavours and playstyles are all a boon to the game. There's serious room for mergers on the Imperial end of things, though I wouldn't go so far as to say there should be a single Imperial codex.
Surprised the Tau aren't winning giving the absolute whine that is directed at them constantly.
I'm surprised at the level of Space Wolf hate honestly, given that they're the closest fitting Marine supplement to the tone the setting works best at.
Grimdark alone is dull. There must be equal and opposite ammounts of over the top silliness such as Wolf-themed Space Vikings or the entire premise falls apart.
Would you like Orks to be removed too whilst we're at it?
changemod wrote: I'm surprised at the level of Space Wolf hate honestly, given that they're the closest fitting Marine supplement to the tone the setting works best at.
Grimdark alone is dull. There must be equal and opposite ammounts of over the top silliness such as Wolf-themed Space Vikings or the entire premise falls apart.
Would you like Orks to be removed too whilst we're at it?
Space Wolves should be saved on the basis that they told the Inquisition to get bent. They're far from silly, they play quite an important role in the fluff. Not a huge fan of their game mechanics, but c'est la vie.
GreaterGoodIreland wrote: I put down the Tempestus, but frankly I think the more armies, the better. Different flavours and playstyles are all a boon to the game. There's serious room for mergers on the Imperial end of things, though I wouldn't go so far as to say there should be a single Imperial codex.
Surprised the Tau aren't winning giving the absolute whine that is directed at them constantly.
It seems most people put aisde their bias and decided to vote to take out the ones that don't make sense... and then we got vocal people who really hate a faction. We should do a round 2 after this!
changemod wrote: I'm surprised at the level of Space Wolf hate honestly, given that they're the closest fitting Marine supplement to the tone the setting works best at.
Grimdark alone is dull. There must be equal and opposite ammounts of over the top silliness such as Wolf-themed Space Vikings or the entire premise falls apart.
Would you like Orks to be removed too whilst we're at it?
Yeah but Space Wolves recently have just been silly, without the grim dark. It's not a balance anymore.
changemod wrote: I'm surprised at the level of Space Wolf hate honestly, given that they're the closest fitting Marine supplement to the tone the setting works best at.
Grimdark alone is dull. There must be equal and opposite ammounts of over the top silliness such as Wolf-themed Space Vikings or the entire premise falls apart.
Would you like Orks to be removed too whilst we're at it?
Orks are silly-awesome. Spess Wulves are silly-stupid.
changemod wrote: I'm surprised at the level of Space Wolf hate honestly, given that they're the closest fitting Marine supplement to the tone the setting works best at.
Grimdark alone is dull. There must be equal and opposite ammounts of over the top silliness such as Wolf-themed Space Vikings or the entire premise falls apart.
Would you like Orks to be removed too whilst we're at it?
Yeah but Space Wolves recently have just been silly, without the grim dark. It's not a balance anymore.
Space Wolves are silly mixed with awesome, much like most fantasy portrayals of Vikings only turned up to eleven.
The balance comes when they meet factions taking themselves far too seriously Grimdark such as the Grey Knights wiping out the survivors of Armageddon, then crusade against them until they stop doing that.
Jollydevil wrote: Someone explain to me why we have four inquisition armies, four space marine armies, and now two imperial guard?
GW, GW, GW...
Because they sell, and if they didn't they wouldn't exist.
Facts are facts, if an army didn't sell they wouldn't print it. GW is a business. They don't care about which armies we like more or less, as long as the models sell.
I think he means Codex: Dread Knights, Codex: Girl Space Marines, Codex: No one expects the Imperial Inquisition and Codex: Stormus Troopericus. Only one of those in a Inquisition Codex.
I think he means Codex: Dread Knights, Codex: Girl Space Marines, Codex: No one expects the Imperial Inquisition and Codex: Stormus Troopericus. Only one of those in a Inquisition Codex.
Im just counting what theyve got on the GW site (AKA what is separated into its own subsection). Counting those, its Grey Kanigits, Sorority Sisters, Assinorum, and yes, the Inquisition
morgoth wrote: The problem is that to remove Space Marines, you'd need to remove at least 5 codexes (one of them is space marines for girls).
Well, that is not true. I mean, certainly the Blood Angels are as much designed for gay men as they are for straight women. Do not forget that Batman Forever proved to the world how homoerotic nipple armor can be!
Assassins aren't an army, they've just been split out so anyone can use them.
Primarily Imperial obviously, though as they all Infiltrate it's not hard to stick them 12 inches from your army if you want to convert an equivalent operative for your army.
Archonate wrote: Orks. Immediate answer.
They simply would not and could not function on any level that would make them even remotely threatening in the 40k universe... Yet they magically are. No explanation.
They're too cartoony. They don't fit atmosphere of the game.
I can't stand how they always magically happen to have whatever unconstrained abilities needed to do whatever they want from the moment they're born, yet still be halfwits.
The explanations justifying all of the above are always just as shallow as the fluff itself.
I think you're mistaking "simplistic/crude" for "halfwits". You're also underestimating the amount of "magically happen to have" that occurs in every other race
Id say get rid of militarum tempesus (and Im a guard player). They dont need their own army. They are just fine as being unit options within the guard.
I'd also condence all the marines into one bigger book with ech having a different chapter (pun intended) that describes them and gives any additional units they might have followed by a generic list that the chapter differences are than added to.
What to add?..... I'd say no armies at all. Spend the time instead working on fine tuning the rules for balance and getting rid of exploits.
Space Marines. It'll give the other SM codexes more character and force people to play something else. Tired of seeing SMs on the table in different colours pretending to be something different from the next.
Don't care if Xenos forces have bad fluff or rep in other peoples views, 40k to me is about ott aliens and crazy out of the ordinary stuff. Space Marines are as bland as a bread sandwich.
Codex Space Wolves(only regular marines different enough to warrant separation)
Codex Grey Knights(because they're distinct from the Inquisition)
Codex Inquisition(all inquisition units, ISTs, Inquisitors, Deathwatch squads and characters)
-Sisters of Battle supplement(same as current, just with inquisition options as well because its the same codex, just a supplement)
changemod wrote: I'm surprised at the level of Space Wolf hate honestly, given that they're the closest fitting Marine supplement to the tone the setting works best at.
Grimdark alone is dull. There must be equal and opposite ammounts of over the top silliness such as Wolf-themed Space Vikings or the entire premise falls apart.
Would you like Orks to be removed too whilst we're at it?
Orks being silly works. The problem with the Space Wolves is not simply that they're silly, it's that their sillyness is implemented in an atrocious manner that comes off more as a little kid running away with his bad internet fanfic than anything else, and at the same time half their fluff demands that they be taken seriously, that the sillyness is just a cunning ruse, but at the same time they're still totally silly according to themselves.
It's the combination of abysmal execution, contradictory nature, and cognitive dissonance with the faction that just doesn't work.
I wouldnt call the wolves silly. I'd say more outrageously anachronistic.
One of those deals where everyone (in the fluff) just shakes their head and wonders but are kinda too afraid to say anything because the wolves are so bad ass.
I like the variety that armies like orks and wolves and yes, even tau add as it adds flavor and internal politics within the factions and draws in a wider variety of players.
I would not remove any armies, but I wouldn't mind if a few were changed or merged.
Imperium:
Astra Militarum and Militarum Tempestus as one dex, with the ability to field either side alone or mixed. Restrictions akin to the Inquisition.
Space Marines: Blood Angels, Dark Angels merged in. Restrictions akin to the Inquisition.
New Mechanicus Codex, including Imperial Knights.
.
Inquisition, Assassins, Grey Knights, and Sisters of Battle merged, with the ability to take them alone or merged. Fill out more of the inquisition (i.e. Inquisitorial Storm Troopers, Deathwatch, etc.), and SoB at the same time. Put restrictions on how a list can be made, to prevent lists like the following: Grey Knight Captain leading an army of Sisters of Battle, Sister Superior leading an Inquisitorial Army, etc.
Chaos:
Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons merged. Restrictions akin to the Inquisition.
Xenos:
Tau Auxiliaries gaining a codex, which can also be used by other races.
Orks: The return of Zogwart and Wazdakka.
- Speed Freaks Supplement
- Mek/Weirdboy/Painboy Mob Supplement
In merged books, you will have the ability to run the lists you can currently, but also new lists.
Windchild wrote: Inquisition, Assassins, Grey Knights, and Sisters of Battle merged, with the ability to take them alone or merged. Fill out more of the inquisition (i.e. Inquisitorial Storm Troopers, Deathwatch, etc.), and SoB at the same time. Put restrictions on how a list can be made, to prevent lists like the following: Grey Knight Captain leading an army of Sisters of Battle, Sister Superior leading an Inquisitorial Army, etc.
I see that a lot, but why Sisters with the Inquisition?
Marines merged. Supercodex also contains-
- a "fast" detachment (Dark Angels, Whitescars, Raven Guard) without heavy tanks, but with many fast units and unlocking interceptors (Stormtalon, Nephilim etc) and Terminator Rhinos
- a "siege" detachment (for Imperial Fists, Salamanders and Sisters of Battle) with little fast attack but unlocking Repressors, Centurions (which Penitent thingies are now) and allowing artillery squadrons (Exorcists are now Whirlwinds)
- (for Space Wolves, Blood Angels,and Grey Knights) "close quarters" detachment with more melee-equiped troops, hunting beasts and Sanguinary Guard. Bike riders instead ride larger hunting beasts.
Astra something/Tempestus/Knights merged
Eldar/Dark Eldar merged
Chaos forces gone, Chaos Marines wiped out in Horus Heresey, models can be used as regular Marines though. A very overused thing in fiction these days seems to be "use religious terms/imagery, and hope people will be too distracted to noticethe poor writing quality". Apparently 40K is intended as satire, so maybe that amateurish trick is intentional, but... modern fiction is too oversaturated with it and its just annoying.
Imperial Knights don't need to be a codex and should be merged in with something else. And seeing less of them in the game is a bonus I'm not against. But, Militarum Tempestus is up there too. Should be rolled back in to the Guard codex as a seperate detachment possibility. Kinda like Archangels and Haemonculus Covens if those were in the same book as their codex... Again, a whole other book is just overkill.
I voted for Imperial Knights. While I am a supporter for options available to players, I don't see why the knights should have their own primary detachment. I am fine with them being an ally option for the Imperials so you can have a Knight battling alongside your guardsmen or space marines.
I just don't see the fun in a knight-only army.
"My army is a Cadian Imperial Guard regiment run by a Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus. What is yours?"
"Three super-heavy vehicles."
"Oh how tactical and interesting this game is going to be!"
That made me laugh at the absurdity. And I hate that it's true.
Honestly, if I NEEDED an Imperial Knight, I'd just get a Forgeworld model and not spend the money on the 'codex'. Free PDF rules are much more practical for one friggin unit.
SharkoutofWata wrote: That made me laugh at the absurdity. And I hate that it's true.
Honestly, if I NEEDED an Imperial Knight, I'd just get a Forgeworld model and not spend the money on the 'codex'. Free PDF rules are much more practical for one friggin unit.
Cerastus Kights and the Magerea are more distinct from one another and visually interesting anyhow.
I'd probably go for an Acheron. Moves into position very quickly, then can launch a huge hellstorm template in one direction then snap off a few heavy bolter shots as a mere formality to allow it to charge a separate unit.
Can't harm a Land Raider with a heavy bolter? Irrelevant, by shooting it you've established targeting and can go stab it with a giant Chainfist. The other two Cerastus models have overkill issues where they only have one gun and have to charge what they shot, and target saturation is pretty much all I want from a Superheavy trying to earn all those points back.
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Ailaros wrote: I'm curious why people would rather have a $200 600-page superbook for all the imperial armies rather than the current codex system.
Better be quiet - GW might be listening. The last thing we need is all armies combined into a single rulebook you've got to pay half a grand for.
And can use as a handy blugeon if you have the upper body strength to transport it.
sarpedons-right-hand wrote: My vote went to Imperial Knights. It just seems pointless having a whole Codex dedicated to what should, ostensibly be, a Support Unit. Somewhere on Dakka there is a thread asking if 40k is too bloated. Daft things like Imperial Knights having their own book are adding to the bloated-ness of the game. Imperial Knights should jut be a support choice in the SM Codices, IG and Chaos 'Dex's. That's it.
£25 for a 64 page book giving you the rules for TWO units!? WTF?
I believe it's actually a 6 page codex with two units
Half of other pages are just the same picture over and over with different color patterns on it
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Ailaros wrote: I'm curious why people would rather have a $200 600-page superbook for all the imperial armies rather than the current codex system.
Better be quiet - GW might be listening. The last thing we need is all armies combined into a single rulebook you've got to pay half a grand for.
But then they could make a limited edition version with a brand new painting on the cover, a poster and slipcase, priced at $2,000 -- that sells out 2 seconds after it goes online!
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SharkoutofWata wrote: That made me laugh at the absurdity. And I hate that it's true.
Honestly, if I NEEDED an Imperial Knight, I'd just get a Forgeworld model and not spend the money on the 'codex'. Free PDF rules are much more practical for one friggin unit.
Technically, you still need the "formation" But anyhow, borrow friend's copy and photocopy 6 pages. The cost of the models is more prohibitive, unless you buy recasts, since IK is the most egregiously recast model that GW/FW makes.
None, just combine a few like sisters of battle, grey knights and inquisition into one.
Tau + farsight
Chaos + chaos deamons
Scions + guard, (krieg, etc included)
And not increase prices but combine ones that should be natural allies together.
The idea I of a whole impirial codex in one would be too damn huge to contemplate though.
Just link natural allies so easy as possible to build combined fuctinal armies.
And bonus you may atchually sell more models :-)
Agreed that no army should truly disappear, more appropriately absorbed in their similar codex with supplements for flavor.
We have space Vikings so why not space Mongols then? (oh yeah)... different successful historical armies seem to be the means of adding flavor to the "white bread" space marines.
Tau appeal a bit to the anime crowd so it works, people who like cleaner lines to their tech can be happy.
Orks, not sure how it could be the same without them. How they can survive never-mind thrive: read the fluff! Possible slave race with tech knowledge imbedded in their DNA. They do not "invent", more like they "remember" stuff.
Squats are still waiting around to be found again.
I could see inquisition, sisters, arbites and mechanicus being rolled into one faction as like "Imperium of Man" infrastructure, the first defense before the military deploys.
I would like to see Tyranids more like their beginnings with the genestealers: an infestation of the imperium of man.
Think of Skaven but as cockroaches on steroids, invasive as all heck and hard to root-out (Inquisitor exterminator?).
I think if it got down to just a few core books it could be more fun than less:
Space Marine: all of them: DA, BA, SM, GK, SW
Imperium of Man: Sisters, Inquisition, arbites, mechanicus, militia, hive gangs.
Imperial Guard: The space faring, planet defense, command assets: AM
The Old Ones (Eldar): Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequins, their (daemon?) gods.
It came from the warp: Daemons, CSM, Various Cults based on gods or just imbedded in populations (Alpha Legion, Word Bearers).
Hidden Threat: Necron, Tyranid, armies that can spring up from nowhere with no warning, common opponent of "Imperium of man".
Threats of the Void: Tau, Demiurg (Squats), Pirates.
Orks: Just cannot see a way to lump them with anything, they are an entire travelling ecosystem, like imperium of man with a heightened pecking order.
Wow, really drives home how many factions there are out there: too many.
Ailaros wrote: I'm curious why people would rather have a $200 600-page superbook for all the imperial armies rather than the current codex system.
Better be quiet - GW might be listening. The last thing we need is all armies combined into a single rulebook you've got to pay half a grand for.
Probably because they play Xenos and are unhappy that they have to share releases with 4 different Space Marine books.
And then we might have some Salamander-players that are jealous because Space Wolves get their own book and they don't.
I personally don't want any army to be removed, I don't see any reason to remove an army because I might be but-hurt for some reason.
Merging Codices might be even worse.
Yes, merging Inquisition and SoB might make sense from a lore-PoV.
But it would also mean I need to buy a big book filled with Sisters of Battle, just to play my Inquisitor with a few Crusader-models.
Nor do I want to buy a book filled with 15 chapters just to play the Blood Angels I have been playing for a long time.
Ailaros wrote: I'm curious why people would rather have a $200 600-page superbook for all the imperial armies rather than the current codex system.
Because:
1) It wouldn't have to be a $200 book unless GW used it as an opportunity to rip everyone off. The actual rules text of all those marine codices isn't very long, especially if you get rid of all the pointless "look at me I'm a special snowflake buy my $50 kit" units that only exist to fill up space in a separate codex. You could put all the marine armies into C:SM with maybe 5-10 additional pages of rules, and a few pages of fluff.
2) It would be a great improvement for the people who don't buy their rules. Now, instead of having to keep track of tons of codices/supplements/etc everything is in one simple download.
changemod wrote: Five. No way can you convince me a pile of psychic points and Terminator Troops mean that Grey Knights aren't just another Marine codex.
They are a Space Marine Codex since they are a Space Marine Chapter.
Still doesn't mean they should be thrown in with all of the others, just like Necrons deserve their own Codex instead of being a single book together with Tyranids.
Ailaros wrote: I'm curious why people would rather have a $200 600-page superbook for all the imperial armies rather than the current codex system.
Better be quiet - GW might be listening. The last thing we need is all armies combined into a single rulebook you've got to pay half a grand for.
Why does everyone assume a combined book of any sort would be some absurdly huge number of pages and need to be some obscene price? Flames of War will give you a hardback rulebook with a dozen and a half army lists for four different nations in 200something pages with fluff included, for $30...
Unless we're just assuming GW will simply try to go overboard, which I guess is possible. But needn't necessarily be so.
There are good ideas (like merging SM dexes) and then there's announcing we must purge factions that are integral to the setting for reasons as flimsy as "I don't like them very much."
But my vote is eldar! Those elves must die! (I would not remove them though I understand what they bring to the setting and why people like them.)
Kangodo wrote: Still doesn't mean they should be thrown in with all of the others, just like Necrons deserve their own Codex instead of being a single book together with Tyranids.
Necrons deserve their own codex because they have nothing in common with other armies (Tyranids don't because they suck and should be removed). GK, on the other hand, are just marines with different USRs and can be handled by the chapter tactics system. For example:
Chapter Tactics: GK
We love the new psychic phase: all units with CT:GK gain the Brotherhood of Psykers USR and may generate powers from {appropriate lists}. All vehicle units in a detachment with CT:GK gain the Psychic Pilot USR and may generate powers from {appropriate lists}.
We're space marines +1: any infantry unit with CT:GK may choose any of the following options:
* Replace all bolters with storm bolters and force weapons for +X points per model.
* Any model eligible to take a heavy or special weapon may instead take a heavy bolter for +X points.
* Take psychic ammunition (+1 strength for all bolters, storm bolters, heavy bolters, autocannons, and assault cannons) for +X points per model.
Special characters/units: * Chapter master Mary-Sue Draigo
* Captain "I'm even more immune to chaos than the rest of the 110% immune to chaos marines"
There, problem solved. Shouldn't take more than 2-3 pages in C:SM, and that's if each unit gets its own page.
This is my thought on the lay out, you don't want to merge all the imperialor all the xenos together as then you would have two expensive tomes, so their is 3 Imperial, 2 Xenos and 1 Chaos
Vaktathi wrote:Why does everyone assume a combined book of any sort would be some absurdly huge number of pages and need to be some obscene price? Flames of War will give you a hardback rulebook with a dozen and a half army lists for four different nations in 200something pages with fluff included, for $30...
Because FoW has a handful of units, no fluff, and is printed black and white by some dude with a laser printer in his office.
When you combine hundreds of different units, and hundreds of special rules, and hundreds of pictures of the models and all the fluff, all in hardback with full-color pages, the end result is going to be absurd.
Just like the idea of combining even all the SM factions into a single codex, much less all IoM.
The correct answer is Imperial Knights, any which way you slice it. Models that size never had a place in regular 40K.
However, in terms of what faction would provide the most benefit to 40K if it were to be gone is Space Wolves. They've been utterly and irredeemably ruined. Their fluff is so unfathomably stupid, and the models have been in stiff competition to match that stupidity.
Vaktathi wrote:Why does everyone assume a combined book of any sort would be some absurdly huge number of pages and need to be some obscene price? Flames of War will give you a hardback rulebook with a dozen and a half army lists for four different nations in 200something pages with fluff included, for $30...
Because FoW has a handful of units, no fluff, and is printed black and white by some dude with a laser printer in his office.
Huh? Ok, so apparently you aren't familiar with Flames of War, like, at all.
The fullcolor books with dozens of pages of color art, dozens more of long detailed explanations of campaigns, individual battles, and individual personalities, and a couple hundred pages of color pictures of miniatures and color army list layouts I've got here on my shelf provide clear evidence to counter your claim.
Likewise, there's at least as many units as Warhammer 40k has, if not more. Several armies have two or three dozen different AFV's alone, with lots of different types of infantry units.
There's also huge numbers of different types of armies, with different "troops" equivalents, different support options, different armaments, different experience and morale ratings, etc.
All FoW "codices" fit in a 140 page book. That's only a little bit longer than just the new blood angels codex.
Saying an IoM wouldn't be huge because the FoW book isn't huge is like saying that a cruise ship is tiny because you have some pool floaties in your shed.
Ailaros wrote: The amount of content is nowhere near the same.
You're right, it isn't. The average non-40k rulebook has way more content than a 40k codex. The only reason GW marine codices are so long is that they have to copy/paste the same Rhino, tactical squad, assault squad, etc from the previous marine codex. If you only consider the truly unique characters and units that can't be represented by things that are already in C:SM then you need 3-5 pages of rules per chapter at most.
What I want to say, pretty much has said. The "real" answer is Imperial Knights. I love them and I own one but it is just an extra codex I have to carry around for one model. As much as I do love the fluff in the codex itself, it can easily be merged into something like the Imperial Guard and still have its own Force Organization chart in order to just take one.
I agree, merge the ones that are similar. I bring 4 books just to play my army, 7 if you count the e-codices and it is just kind of tiresome.
Ailaros wrote: All FoW "codices" fit in a 140 page book. That's only a little bit longer than just the new blood angels codex.
Saying an IoM wouldn't be huge because the FoW book isn't huge is like saying that a cruise ship is tiny because you have some pool floaties in your shed.
The amount of content is nowhere near the same.
Which book are you talking about? Are you talking about the super basic one that comes with the rulebook as starter? Even that one I think is color.
I've got the Grey Wolf book right here, lets use it as an example. It covers Axis forces on the Western Front from Jan '44 to Feb '45. It's 238 pages, full color, with rules for German, Hungarian, and Finnish armies, with roughly 33 or 34 different army lists, dozens of AFV's and different infantry units and crew served guns, rules for several individual characters like Lauri Torni (Larry Thorn of Green Berets fame), painting guides for various different armies, and dozens of pages of background explaining the state of each army during the time period, the overall strategic situations, several main battles, and fluff for several specialist formations.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I either wouldn't remove any, because removing armies is a dick move, or I'd accept that 40k needs to be consolidated and remove everything that can realistically be removed by compressing them in to smaller tomes. Roll together all expansion armies in to their respective codices.
Removing just 1 army seems like a spiteful thing to do more than a useful thing.
This is pretty much what would happen if they were to follow the WFB end times pattern.
I honestly think an inquisition codex would be great, being able to take a full GK, full sob, full DW or full inquisitional army would be cool out of 1 codex or to mic and match for a combined force.. special detachments and FOC for each and a normal for mixed.
This is why I think unbound is the solution.
Well, if an Inquisition Codex was made, I would have henchmen as troops by default and all of the other troops stuff (SOB squad, GK strike squads, GK Terminators, Deathwatch Kill-Teams) as elites. If you take an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor special character as your warlord, sisters of battle become troops. If you take an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor special character, Kill-Teams become troops and if you take an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor or special character, GK strike squads and GK terminators become troops. If you take an Ordo Malleus/Hereticus/Xenos warlord, all of the stuff from the other chambers militant are elites.
Vespid wrote: This is my thought on the lay out, you don't want to merge all the imperialor all the xenos together as then you would have two expensive tomes, so their is 3 Imperial, 2 Xenos and 1 Chaos
Codex Space Marines
- Space Marines
- Dark Angels
- Blood Angels
- Space Wolves
- Legion of the Damned
Codex Chaos
- Chaos Daemons
- Chaos Space Marines
Codex Eldar
- Eldar
- Dark Eldar
- Harlequins
Codex Xenos
- Orks
- Tyranids
- Tau
- Necrons
I think it's a bit dismissive to make a "Codex: Xenos". They are all very unique armies with unique fluff. Plus, an allied army of Orks, Tyranids, Tau and Necrons, WTF!? Also, Eldar shouldn't be merged into one codex. Eldar and Dark Eldar are too different, but harlequins should be integrated into both codices. Finally, Knights should be expanded into a Mechanicum Codex or they should be able to be taken as a LOW by any Imperial Army.
Now for part two. I fully agree that all of the marine armies should be merged into a single marine codex. Dark Angels and Blood Angels are too similar to Vanilla marines not to be and on the subject of Space Wolves, if they can do it with Black Templars, they can do it with them. I agree with Imperial Guard, MT should have never had their own codex. I also agree with a chaos codex, daemon codex is too small to have an excuse to exist. Also, an Inquisition Codex is a good idea, but it would need some Deathwatch stuff in there.
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Wulfmar wrote: Sisters Of Battle - Nuke 'em, if not for the constant moaning of their fanbase, then for the simple idea of nuns with guns. Stick them in Inquisition at least or with Grey Knights.
Imperial Guard - merge with Astra Militarum
I don't know about you, but we should merge the Space Marines with the Adeptus Astartes.
with the eldar and xeno codex you'd have it so that they can only take units from their faction like how ultramarines can only take ultramarines special characters but can't take crusader squad units for example. So you wouldn't have orks, tyranids, tau and necrons in one detachment. But have them be able to ally with each other like codex space marines except using the ally chart. It just means less book keeping.
Kangodo wrote: But what happens with their unique units?
Their special snowflakes are gone. They don't need them anyway, those "unique" units only exist to justify GW's decision to charge you $50 for "your tactical squads can take storm bolters".
How about their special weapons?
Not necessary. It's not like anyone ever takes anything besides psycannons, and that option is maintained (through the psychic ammo upgrade I gave them).
Or fluff?
Most of it is stupid anyway. Reducing it to a footnote somewhere in the "other chapters" section of C:SM would be an improvement.
Kangodo wrote:But what happens with their unique units?
How about their special weapons? Or fluff?
Didn't you know that you can combine six 120-page books, and the end result is only 30 pages long, and you lose no content?
Amazing, right?
Pyeatt wrote:Chaos marines are dumb. Think they should be removed entirely. The fluff for them is terrible. Should just be man vs xenos vs daemons.
So space marines are well-adjusted human beings that would never have enough stress or brutal discipline to behave badly? Just a bunch of genial blokes who really don't mind that they're not allowed have emotions. Who are pretty cool with totalitarian enslavement of all mankind by a bloated theocracy.
Good thing, too. Otherwise space marines would have flaws, and who wants that?
Ailaros wrote: Didn't you know that you can combine six 120-page books, and the end result is only 30 pages long, and you lose no content?
Amazing, right?
Of course you lose content. But you don't lose valuable content. GW codex page counts (especially in current codices) are vastly inflated by things like the same catalog pictures of the same tactical marines GW has been using since 1995, bland fluff that nobody cares about, special snowflake units that only exist to make you pay $50 for their rules, etc. And then there's the unit overlap. If you combine all the marine codices into one book you don't need to repeat multiple copies of the rules and fluff for tactical squads/Rhinos/etc, so the total length of a combined book would be significantly less than the sum of the page counts of the current books.
changemod wrote: Assassins aren't an army, they've just been split out so anyone can use them.
If only that were true. AFAIK their faction means they can only be transported by an IoM vehicle. feth dat.
You'd spend a vehicle on moving a lone model?
For the most part they're fine: Only the Culexus has any real mobility issue getting where he needs to be and even he Infiltrates.
When you have access to the ultimate Deep Strike for 35 points, why would you not, really.
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changemod wrote: The other two Cerastus models have overkill issues where they only have one gun and have to charge what they shot, and target saturation is pretty much all I want from a Superheavy trying to earn all those points back.
They're Titan hunters, so it makes sense that they're overkill against small stuff.
changemod wrote: The other two Cerastus models have overkill issues where they only have one gun and have to charge what they shot, and target saturation is pretty much all I want from a Superheavy trying to earn all those points back.
They're Titan hunters, so it makes sense that they're overkill against small stuff.
"Overkill" as in they can only target one unit and have to dedicate all their force against it, when every other Knight unit can shoot one thing and charge another.
Tau ofc, the race looks like ET before age got him so just pack your bikes and go home. Kroot are pointless too so are vespids. Newer minis are ok ish but Id be ashamed to put a Crysis suit on the table.
Second would be ponytail elves Eldar, though they could just remodel them to look more spacy alienish and less Elrond in spaaace. Their tanks are awfuly proportioned too.
Militarium Tempestus riding the Taurox fit better to sf adaptation of 4 musketeers so I'm happy to see them so high on the list.
changemod wrote: The other two Cerastus models have overkill issues where they only have one gun and have to charge what they shot, and target saturation is pretty much all I want from a Superheavy trying to earn all those points back.
They're Titan hunters, so it makes sense that they're overkill against small stuff.
"Overkill" as in they can only target one unit and have to dedicate all their force against it, when every other Knight unit can shoot one thing and charge another.
But in all seriousness, I don't think any army should be blapped, rather consolidated. The fluff can still exist, but having so many different flavors of Marines and whatnot just muddy up the waters.
I wouldn't remove any armies completely, but instead merge most of the similar armies together into a single combined book to create less armies overall but by doing so create armies with more internal choice.
One of my biggest gripes with 40k is that there are far too many "armies" that are basically copy-pasted from one another, eg. SM and all other SM chapters; or that there are separate armies for units that would logically operate under the same banner, eg. CSM and Demons.
Peregrine wrote: especially if you get rid of all the pointless "look at me I'm a special snowflake buy my $50 kit" units that only exist to fill up space in a separate codex.
bizarrely, GW may actually prefer if you buy their -
you know what, this is a stupid thing to have to reply to.
Peregrine wrote: especially if you get rid of all the pointless "look at me I'm a special snowflake buy my $50 kit" units that only exist to fill up space in a separate codex.
bizarrely, GW may actually prefer if you buy their -
you know what, this is a stupid thing to have to reply to.
changemod wrote: The other two Cerastus models have overkill issues where they only have one gun and have to charge what they shot, and target saturation is pretty much all I want from a Superheavy trying to earn all those points back.
They're Titan hunters, so it makes sense that they're overkill against small stuff.
"Overkill" as in they can only target one unit and have to dedicate all their force against it, when every other Knight unit can shoot one thing and charge another.
Do you even read ?
The Lancer I can buy. It only has the one short range weapon, so Lance-zapping is just an extension of it's charge in.
But you're telling me the Castigator Pilot can't rake his Bolt Cannon across a Tactical unit on the way to stabbing something else?
Peregrine wrote: especially if you get rid of all the pointless "look at me I'm a special snowflake buy my $50 kit" units that only exist to fill up space in a separate codex.
bizarrely, GW may actually prefer if you buy their -
you know what, this is a stupid thing to have to reply to.
Yeah, two way street there. Games Workshop want to sell fancy elite models to encourage sales, players want their chapter's distinctive Thunderwolf Cavalry, Sanguinary Guard or Ravenwing Black Knights.
Whilst I agree you could fairly easily consolidate the specialist chapters, you'd fairly need to give them each a book chapter half dedicated to fluff, half dedicated to specialist units and pointing out wargear differences on generic units.
Grey Knights would be the hardest in that they'd need stuff like points adjustments for giving units Brotherhood of Psykers and different wargear tables for basically every unit.
Overall, even having the same "Rhino" page for everyone and cutting redundant fluff and picture space, you're probably looking at a double sized tome. It could be done, but it wouldn't necessarily be 100% practical.
Honestly I don't even see why this thread is still open.This thread is inherently hostile, because when you're saying you want to remove a faction you're basically telling everyone who plays that faction to go feth themselves, and/or that all the money and time they spent on the hobby simply doesn't matter, because they like something you don't like. And when you add to the fact that it's mostly all going to be targeted at just a few "unpopular" factions, like Tau, it just feels like bullying in the end. We get enough undeserved hate as it is, and threads like this just give people yet another chance to get their daily Tau-bashing in.
Seriously? Tau have been a part of 40k for about 14 years now. That's more than half of 40k's total lifespan so far, and they've been in 4 out of the game's 7 editions. Tau are here to stay, and there are other games out there you can play if you don't like it.
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: Tau would be kicked out of the game by me. Don't need an army of blue fishlike men.
I think we need Tau more than we need five fething Space Marine armies, to be perfectly honest.
Telmenari wrote: None, but I really wish that Farsight Enclaves was either removed or changed to not be Battle-Brothers with Tau, considering they're actively hostile towards one another constantly....
Your tau fluff knowledge needs to be repaired.
While they are OFFICIALLY hostile, even that is one-sided (empire to enclaves, but not the reverse), they don't actually fight each other, and the enclaves have assisted the empire at defending against outer threats (than packed up and left)
Plus, much of the empire is sympathetic towards the enclaves.
The "hostility" between the two is only the creed of the ethreals, but in reality the two coexist fine.
Not only that but in the FE supplement it even says that some of the sept worlds in the Empire are sending supplies to the Enclaves, and it's strongly hinted that Farsight still has a lot of friends on Vior'la in particular, if I'm not mistaken. It's how they got riptides, a Tau commander defected and brought an entire ship full of supplies with them.
But no, the Empire isn't exactly waging open war against the Enclaves, and the Enclaves likely don't even consider the Empire an enemy.
I would roll Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels into Codex:Space Marines and treat them like any other chapter. Give them unique Chapter Tactics and then give the limited number of chapter specific units the Crusader Squad treatment. In other words, add in Sanguinary Guard, but require them to be taken in a Blood Angels Chapter Tactics detachment.
Why do those three chapters deserve their own codex while the other core chapters don't? Why isn't there a Codex: Salamanders? Why not make 9 different Codexes and turn Codex: Space Marines into Codex: Ultramarines (which is basically what it is now)?
Grey Knights except in specific scenarios where they are called in to fight daemons. You know their primary job and role in life, thus why they are called the Daemon Hunters.
Ailaros wrote: Actually, the cargo-cult nature of orks fits perfectly with grimdark. It fits along with techpriests and warp-based psychic powers to a tee.
Orks as funny only doesn't make sense when you can't see grimdark as the absurdist humor it is.
I never said anything about Orks being funny. I said they're cartoony. As in they look like they were designed by some 1980s cartoonist. Since I started in 2nd edition, all the other armies have matured and grown to look more convincing... Except Orks, who only got a little bit larger. They just look awful.
The Cargo-cult nature of Orks might fit if only Orks had to work at it. Knowing how to build a complex machine the day after you're born or completely repurposing other races' alien technology with no reverse engineering or technical experience is just abysmally pathetic design.
Orks are great in Fantasy. They should have stayed there.
Peregrine wrote: especially if you get rid of all the pointless "look at me I'm a special snowflake buy my $50 kit" units that only exist to fill up space in a separate codex.
bizarrely, GW may actually prefer if you buy their -
you know what, this is a stupid thing to have to reply to.
Sorry, I thought this thread was about "what army would you remove if you had the chance", not "GW is never going to remove an army because they'd rather milk the cash cow obsessively with tons of pointless rulebooks".
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changemod wrote: Yeah, two way street there. Games Workshop want to sell fancy elite models to encourage sales, players want their chapter's distinctive Thunderwolf Cavalry, Sanguinary Guard or Ravenwing Black Knights.
You don't need special rules to sell special models. TWC and Ravenwing are just bike squads with fancy models, sanguinary guard are just vanguard vets with fancy models.
Whilst I agree you could fairly easily consolidate the specialist chapters, you'd fairly need to give them each a book chapter half dedicated to fluff, half dedicated to specialist units and pointing out wargear differences on generic units.
That's only true if you assume that every random special rule and bit of wargear that currently exists needs to continue existing. You could get rid of most of it without really losing anything valuable, so that page count goes down significantly.
Peregrine wrote: You don't need special rules to sell special models. TWC and Ravenwing are just bike squads with fancy models, sanguinary guard are just vanguard vets with fancy models.
If you feel like sucking all the joy out of it, sure.
That's only true if you assume that every random special rule and bit of wargear that currently exists needs to continue existing. You could get rid of most of it without really losing anything valuable, so that page count goes down significantly.
Hey, let's just have one book and give every army the same units with different models whilst we're at it. Make it colourful chess with a shooting phase.
changemod wrote: If you feel like sucking all the joy out of it, sure.
I didn't realize that rules bloat was necessary for joy. How exactly do TWC need their own special rules? The core of their concept is that they're MEQs with +1 toughness and faster movement, which is exactly what bikes have. Is your game really going to be ruined because you have T5 from the bike unit type instead of a special snowflake unit rule?
Hey, let's just have one book and give every army the same units with different models whilst we're at it. Make it colourful chess with a shooting phase.
Congratulations on missing the point. Marine armies are already almost identical, and the few differences are mostly excuses for GW to justify selling an entire $50 rulebook instead of meaningful strategic differences. And this is especially true if you want to do something about the general rules bloat issue in 40k, where there are a million special rules and exceptions to the special rules and exceptions to the exceptions. An un-bloated version of 40k would simplify things to the point where the subtle differences between marine codices aren't really important enough to deserve their own rules, but you'd still have huge differences between orks and tau.
changemod wrote: If you feel like sucking all the joy out of it, sure.
I didn't realize that rules bloat was necessary for joy. How exactly do TWC need their own special rules? The core of their concept is that they're MEQs with +1 toughness and faster movement, which is exactly what bikes have. Is your game really going to be ruined because you have T5 from the bike unit type instead of a special snowflake unit rule?
Hey, let's just have one book and give every army the same units with different models whilst we're at it. Make it colourful chess with a shooting phase.
Congratulations on missing the point. Marine armies are already almost identical, and the few differences are mostly excuses for GW to justify selling an entire $50 rulebook instead of meaningful strategic differences. And this is especially true if you want to do something about the general rules bloat issue in 40k, where there are a million special rules and exceptions to the special rules and exceptions to the exceptions. An un-bloated version of 40k would simplify things to the point where the subtle differences between marine codices aren't really important enough to deserve their own rules, but you'd still have huge differences between orks and tau.
Hey, let's eliminate DKoK. They're basically Imperial Guard. And honestly, throw DE and Eldar into the same book. They're both elves, so it's fiiiine. Then put CSM, Necrons, and Tau into Codex: Emperor-less Heretics. Remember, trimming the rules = better game.
I would consolidate the armies and game considerably, cutting the specialist sm armies and consolidating them to one codex, with 1-3 characters per chapter, their special units could be upgrades and grey knights could be an elites choice. The rest of the imperial stuff could be rolled into the other stuff book, sisters, ig, =][=, and maybe mechanicus for good measure. I would cut knights completely, and put an emphasis on smaller games, 1000 to 1500 points, as that is where the game seems to be at its best rules wise for me. The tau would go, and I would keep the orks, tyranids, and eldar, with minor tweaks but I would consolidate the eldar and dark eldar all together. I would consolidate demons and csm to one book and add legion rules. Cypher and assasins would still be separate but would have ti be taken in conjunction with the right circumstances (i.e. no cypher and dark angels)
The resulting list would look like:
Codex: Space Marines
Codex: forces of the imperium of man
Codex: eldar
Codex: orks
Codex: tyranids
Each army would be consolidated or have units added to bring it in line with the other books in terms of choices. Then the books might finally be worth 50 usd.
I wouldn't remove or add anything. The game's factions are fine the way they are. Also, think of all the QQ if factions were suddenly removed or multiple merged into a single codex. I can still remember the five Black Templar players I know QQing when the BT were added to C:SM.
jreilly89 wrote: Hey, let's eliminate DKoK. They're basically Imperial Guard. And honestly, throw DE and Eldar into the same book. They're both elves, so it's fiiiine. Then put CSM, Necrons, and Tau into Codex: Emperor-less Heretics. Remember, trimming the rules = better game.
Exactly! DKoK should be a "chapter tactics" equivalent in the IG codex. DE and Eldar are kind of different, but since you can (and are encouraged to) ally them anyway you might as well just put them into a single book. The only one of those I disagree with is putting all the non-Imperial armies into one book because they have nothing in common and the combined book would be just as long as all of the separate books.
Hey, let's just have one book and give every army the same units with different models whilst we're at it. Make it colourful chess with a shooting phase.
Congratulations on missing the point. .
Actually you may be missing the point of the setting. Sure, the game may be bloated to someone who only looks at the rules but variety is kind of the point. The galaxy is a huge place in 40k, and one of the major draws is that there is so much variety. It is a galaxy with everything and anything. And everything happens. All the time, every day. So sure, to some people who don't want to buy so many codexes would love consolidated army books, and frankly I would like that too. However that defeats the point, this is a game of variety, for casual play, the point is not to make it feasible to know all the rules and efficiency but rather to have a lot of cool things that are unique. That is what drove me away from the vanilla marine codex in the first place. Flavor is the point, and if one redundant special rule accomplishes this so be it. Flavor is the point.
I look at this and all I see is hate for Tau and the diversity of SMs. I can see the funeral now: "Today, we say goodbye to many beloved friends. Some cruel bastard decided that they couldn't be different and merged them all together. The resulting mass of twisted flesh caused death for all involved, and immense pain for them, their friends and players."
Kriswall wrote: Why do those three chapters deserve their own codex while the other core chapters don't? Why isn't there a Codex: Salamanders? Why not make 9 different Codexes and turn Codex: Space Marines into Codex: Ultramarines (which is basically what it is now)?
They don't deserve their own Codex, they have their own Codex.
Instead of demanding they remove BA, DA, SW and GK's you should probably advocate making a separate Codex for Salamanders.
Peregrine wrote: You don't need special rules to sell special models. TWC and Ravenwing are just bike squads with fancy models, sanguinary guard are just vanguard vets with fancy models.
Did you actually read the rules for Sanguinary Guard?
The only thing they have in common with Vanguard Veterans are.. uhm..
They both have Frag and Krak grenades? Because that is basically it.
Wow, I was dreading Sisters being in first place, glad to see their not! I don't really want to see any army gone, in fact I'd like to see more, especially Mechanicum. There are some army mergers I'd like to see, though.
I do think it would've nice to combine all the Space Marine armies into one codex, with additional dataslates being released for customizing your favorite chapter further. Kind of like how they did with the Iron Hands, if I recall correctly.
I wouldn't mind Sisters being tied in with Inquisition. Throw some Death Watch in there too, please!
They don't deserve their own Codex, they have their own Codex.
Instead of demanding they remove BA, DA, SW and GK's you should probably advocate making a separate Codex for Salamanders.
Then you might as well make a codex for every first founding chapter.
Then, in fairness to every other faction, release a codex for every single dynasty, hive fleet, regiment, clan, kabal, craftworld, and sept.
I'm all for options, but you'd be looking at 50+ codices. That's ridiculous. Even if they were supplements, that's a gak ton of repetition for what ultimately would boil down to a few characters and a special unit or two per codex.
Did you actually read the rules for Sanguinary Guard?
The only thing they have in common with Vanguard Veterans are.. uhm..
They both have Frag and Krak grenades? Because that is basically it.
Honour guard then, whatever, it doesn't matter.
You don't see Guard players complaining the codex doesn't have a Ragnarok tank option, because you could field a Ragnarok model using the rules for the Leman Russ. Sure, the Ragnarok is technically different, and potentially deserving of its own rules, but the published and known stats for the Russ fit it fine.
Same goes for much of the unique marine units; assuming a re-tooled Honour Guard could take jet packs, your Sanguinary Guard would fit right in. It wouldn't have every single special rule and tiny variance in wargear, but it would be WYSIWYG and it would work.
Having a properly done single loyalist marine book would solve many problems between the power levels of the current system. It would open more variety to DIY chapters and even established chapters finally getting access to reasonable units they should have (thunderfire cannons, hunters).
A well done Chapter Tactics system would still leave plenty of unique flavour, as well as a handful of special units only unlocked through an appropriate CT selection.
Frankly, all the marines are incredibly similar. They all wear power armour, shoot bolters, ride in rhinos and razorbacks, have Land Raiders, preds, vinidis, whirlwinds, have drop pods, have the same unit types available in each slot (or close enough to as not make much of a difference), have the same statline and base special rules, and play roughly the same as a smallish model count army that is good at everything and can be tooled to be much better at one particular thing. CTs would reinforce that.
It frees up development time for other factions, stops the power creep between marine books, adds more options for every marine player without going through allies and what-not, and is cheaper for those playing DIY chapters that use multiple marine books for their army. It retains the majority of table top flavour, is simpler and easier for opponents to learn, remember, and understand a single book than four.
The downside is the loss of in codex fluff for each individual chapter, and loss of some of the specific rules and units that can be represented by an existing unit. Frankly, GW should just release crunch only books/files and release separate fluff books for those inclined, which would make the first downside irrelevant.
All in all, its wishlisting and likely never to happen, but given the thread is a theoretical exercise anyways, I feel the merits of rolling in marines outweighs the cons. I think some marine players need to exercise their imagination a little more when discussing this topic, as I see no reason why TWC couldn't be represented by bike squads and a SWCT, just modelled as wolves. It's like how IG players often model Rough Riders as bikers instead of cavalry. You don't need a unique unit, or unique piece of wargear, or special rules to create fluffy, unique lists; painting and modelling goes a long way to making your army stand out visually, and proper list building would make your army unique on the table top depending on unit selection.
But hey, I'm a filthy Guard player, so what do I know?
Blacksails wrote: They're the chamber militant of the Ordo Hereticus.
Personally, I think a proper Inquisition book could support universal Inq units, plus the chambers militant; Sisters, GK, and DW.
Do you know what this whimsical fluff that was never mentioned outside of 3rd edition means? Well, here is what it means. It means that GK, that have always been devoted to fighting daemons, and still are, and care only about demons, are often working together with Inquisitors that fight demons. No big deal, here. It also means that Deathwatch, which are very special teams of marines that are sent by Ordo Xenos inquisitors, and only by them, to do specific missions that are always about fighting xenos, are, well, working a lot with Inquisitors that fight xenos (duh!). And finally, it means that Sisters of Battle, that are the troops of the Ecclesiarchy, which have their own aims and wars that are related to the politics of the Eclesiarchy and the Sisters' own faith, that spend a lot of time fighting xenos (like Orks and Necrons) and on rare occasion will also fight daemons, but also a lot fighting against heretics, sometime works with Inquisitors that fight against heretics.
Do you really think those three factions should be put on the same level as just “troops of the Inquisition”? Do you not see how the Sisters of Battle are much, much more independent from the Inquisition that the Grey Knights, which themselves are much more independent from the Inquisition than the Deathwatch?
It would basically make as much sense to melt Sisters with Inquisition as it would make to melt them with Mechanicum or Astra Militarum.
natpri771 wrote: Well, if an Inquisition Codex was made, I would have henchmen as troops by default and all of the other troops stuff (SOB squad, GK strike squads, GK Terminators, Deathwatch Kill-Teams) as elites. If you take an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor special character as your warlord, sisters of battle become troops. If you take an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor special character, Kill-Teams become troops and if you take an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor or special character, GK strike squads and GK terminators become troops. If you take an Ordo Malleus/Hereticus/Xenos warlord, all of the stuff from the other chambers militant are elites.
And so I could not even represent a normal Sister army from basically any fluff representation of them, where they are led by a Canoness or someone from their own hierarchy rather than by some Inquisitor?
What about instead we make all marines elite troops in the Inquisition codex because marines are extra-super rare and make 4 codexes to represent the different orders of the Sisters of Battle?
The Home Nuggeteer wrote: I would cut knights completely, and put an emphasis on smaller games, 1000 to 1500 points, as that is where the game seems to be at its best rules wise for me. The tau would go, and I would keep the orks, tyranids, and eldar, with minor tweaks but I would consolidate the eldar and dark eldar all together.
Why? Why would the Tau go? Why should the Tau go? You've given no reason or explanation for this, not that I would accept any reason or explanation to begin with because it's all entirely subjective and/or would most likely be bullgak anyway, but just throwing it out there like that with nothing to back it up is really fething annoying. You can't just remove an entire faction from the game like that, especially a game as expensive and time-consuming as 40k. You don't get to steal thousands of dollars and years of someone's life and then pull the fething rug out from under them after they've invested so much into your product, for reasons that are most likely going to be very petty or stupid, like "I personally don't like them so I don't want them in the game anymore.", which is what it almost always boils down to.
The Home Nuggeteer wrote: Actually you may be missing the point of the setting. Sure, the game may be bloated to someone who only looks at the rules but variety is kind of the point. The galaxy is a huge place in 40k, and one of the major draws is that there is so much variety. It is a galaxy with everything and anything. And everything happens. All the time, every day. So sure, to some people who don't want to buy so many codexes would love consolidated army books, and frankly I would like that too. However that defeats the point, this is a game of variety, for casual play, the point is not to make it feasible to know all the rules and efficiency but rather to have a lot of cool things that are unique. That is what drove me away from the vanilla marine codex in the first place. Flavor is the point, and if one redundant special rule accomplishes this so be it. Flavor is the point.
Uh, what?! "Variety, variety, variety, that's what 40k is all about! Anything and everything can happen!"
Which is why you'd quietly remove Tau without any reason or explanation for it? For the added "variety" of having fewer xenos factions than we did before? Cutting factions is working directly against what you claim you're trying to achieve. It's removing flavor, not adding anything to the game.
Blacksails wrote: I think some marine players need to exercise their imagination a little more when discussing this topic
You'd think having some imagination would be a requirement for a hobby like this one. Apparently not.
Hell, I'd bet money they'd say I was the unimaginative one for trying to argue that I can't just run my freshly-Squatted Tau army as "counts as" Imperial Guard if I really had to keep tainting their gaming tables with my eyesore models, and to stop "QQing" about my army losing support. But those same kind of people argue very strongly that painting a red Marine gold is a significant enough difference to warrant having a completely different stat line and all sorts of special rules and equipment.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: What about instead we make all marines elite troops in the Inquisition codex because marines are extra-super rare and make 4 codexes to represent the different orders of the Sisters of Battle?
Because then Marine players wouldn't get what they want, and that's a huge fething injustice, apparently. Red Marines are so vastly different from Blue Marines as to warrant having their own book and being treated like their own faction, but the galaxy is just way too small to justify having that and other fleshed-out factions with their own unique fluff, models, identity, and play styles, like Tau and Sisters of Battle.
There's only room for Marines in 40k, and a few token NPC bad guys for them to steamroll (since not every battle can be Marine vs. Marine, that's not "fluffy" either).
Peregrine wrote: You don't need special rules to sell special models. TWC and Ravenwing are just bike squads with fancy models, sanguinary guard are just vanguard vets with fancy models.
If you feel like sucking all the joy out of it, sure.
To be fair, the existence of Thunderwolf cavalry sucks the joy out of the game for me, lol.
Imperial knights really aren't that bad. They are boring to play with/against over and over again but they're cool models and I enjoy seeing them on the table. I don't think sisters fit, they're extremely expensive, nobody plays them and GW doesn't seem to have any interest in fully supporting them. If I was going to squat an army, it would be sisters.
Blacksails wrote: They're the chamber militant of the Ordo Hereticus.
Personally, I think a proper Inquisition book could support universal Inq units, plus the chambers militant; Sisters, GK, and DW.
Do you know what this whimsical fluff that was never mentioned outside of 3rd edition means? Well, here is what it means. It means that GK, that have always been devoted to fighting daemons, and still are, and care only about demons, are often working together with Inquisitors that fight demons. No big deal, here. It also means that Deathwatch, which are very special teams of marines that are sent by Ordo Xenos inquisitors, and only by them, to do specific missions that are always about fighting xenos, are, well, working a lot with Inquisitors that fight xenos (duh!). And finally, it means that Sisters of Battle, that are the troops of the Ecclesiarchy, which have their own aims and wars that are related to the politics of the Eclesiarchy and the Sisters' own faith, that spend a lot of time fighting xenos (like Orks and Necrons) and on rare occasion will also fight daemons, but also a lot fighting against heretics, sometime works with Inquisitors that fight against heretics.
Do you really think those three factions should be put on the same level as just “troops of the Inquisition”? Do you not see how the Sisters of Battle are much, much more independent from the Inquisition that the Grey Knights, which themselves are much more independent from the Inquisition than the Deathwatch?
It would basically make as much sense to melt Sisters with Inquisition as it would make to melt them with Mechanicum or Astra Militarum.
To that end, DA should keep their own codex, as they have their own missions independent of all the other IoM. I'm fine with SoB and DA being their own codex, btw.
Toofast wrote: I don't think sisters fit, they're extremely expensive, nobody plays them and GW doesn't seem to have any interest in fully supporting them.
No one plays them because they get no support. They're an all-metal army that hasn't gotten a single new miniature since they were introduced well over a decade ago, they don't have a physical rulebook anymore, and a simple squad of 10 models costs you $80 now. Everything is also direct only and has been for quite some time, and there's a constant fear that the army is going to be Squatted, just in case all the previous issues weren't enough to put you off already.
It's Dark Eldar all over again, except DE didn't have the insane price tags. All you need to do is give the army some proper fething attention, and prices that make some god-damned sense, and people will probably buy them.
Sidstyler, the tau, which I play, add nothing to the setting. They barely make a ripple in the galactic stage, are all but ignored by chaos and were created to have something more anime fan for the iom to fight. They could have easily been filled by something that existed, like exodites. The reason I left it out was that I feel that whenever a thread comes up like this the arguement for cutting the tau is always way overdone, and repeated far too often. They seem out of place.
Toofast wrote: I don't think sisters fit, they're extremely expensive, nobody plays them and GW doesn't seem to have any interest in fully supporting them.
No one plays them because they get no support. They're an all-metal army that hasn't gotten a single new miniature since they were introduced well over a decade ago, they don't have a physical rulebook anymore, and a simple squad of 10 models costs you $80 now. Everything is also direct only and has been for quite some time, and there's a constant fear that the army is going to be Squatted, just in case all the previous issues weren't enough to put you off already.
It's Dark Eldar all over again, except DE didn't have the insane price tags. All you need to do is give the army some proper fething attention, and prices that make some god-damned sense, and people will probably buy them.
If I may call precedent on this one the GK were a nigh-useless all-metal force that did terrifying things to Daemons and nothing much to anyone else in 3e and 4e, then they got plastic models and a powerful Codex and now folks play them. The death spiral can be broken.
Do you know what this whimsical fluff that was never mentioned outside of 3rd edition means? Well, here is what it means. It means that GK, that have always been devoted to fighting daemons, and still are, and care only about demons, are often working together with Inquisitors that fight demons. No big deal, here. It also means that Deathwatch, which are very special teams of marines that are sent by Ordo Xenos inquisitors, and only by them, to do specific missions that are always about fighting xenos, are, well, working a lot with Inquisitors that fight xenos (duh!). And finally, it means that Sisters of Battle, that are the troops of the Ecclesiarchy, which have their own aims and wars that are related to the politics of the Eclesiarchy and the Sisters' own faith, that spend a lot of time fighting xenos (like Orks and Necrons) and on rare occasion will also fight daemons, but also a lot fighting against heretics, sometime works with Inquisitors that fight against heretics.
So, are you saying they aren't the chamber militant of the Ordo Hereticus? Because I'm seeing no refutation of that in this paragraph.
To that end, I'll go ahead and say it makes sense for Sisters to be part of an Inquisition book, you know, seeing as they are a chamber militant of the Inquisition.
Do you really think those three factions should be put on the same level as just “troops of the Inquisition”? Do you not see how the Sisters of Battle are much, much more independent from the Inquisition that the Grey Knights, which themselves are much more independent from the Inquisition than the Deathwatch?
They wouldn't be 'just troops', but good try. Their level of independence doesn't matter to me; in this purely theoretical exercise, I feel that a full fledged Inquisition book could easily include and accommodate Sisters, GK, DW, and universal Inq elements. None of these factions would be any more marginalized than they currently are, and I dare say that a properly done book would flesh them out better than the current offerings.
It would basically make as much sense to melt Sisters with Inquisition as it would make to melt them with Mechanicum or Astra Militarum.
No, because Sisters are a Chamber Militant of the Inquisition, whether or not you like that fluff. Therefore your comparison is weak, as the Sisters don't have near the connection to the Guard or Ad Mech as they do the Inquisition.
But I understand you're a Sisters player, which will obviously mean you support nothing but a fully independent codex. I do think a full codex would be good for the Sisters, but in the spirit of reducing the amount of books to some sort of logical collection, an Inquisition book containing the three chambers militant makes perfect sense.
The Home Nuggeteer wrote: Actually you may be missing the point of the setting. Sure, the game may be bloated to someone who only looks at the rules but variety is kind of the point. The galaxy is a huge place in 40k, and one of the major draws is that there is so much variety. It is a galaxy with everything and anything. And everything happens. All the time, every day. So sure, to some people who don't want to buy so many codexes would love consolidated army books, and frankly I would like that too. However that defeats the point, this is a game of variety, for casual play, the point is not to make it feasible to know all the rules and efficiency but rather to have a lot of cool things that are unique. That is what drove me away from the vanilla marine codex in the first place. Flavor is the point, and if one redundant special rule accomplishes this so be it. Flavor is the point.
Flavor is the point, but why are you assuming that flavor requires rules bloat? Is your fluffy TWC army suddenly no longer fluffy because the rules are found in C:SM instead of C:SW, and their T5 comes from the bike unit type instead of their basic stat line? Of course not. Trying to create flavor through giant piles of special rules is the last resort of the people who aren't imaginative enough to find flavor in the fluff and models.
Toofast wrote: I don't think sisters fit, they're extremely expensive, nobody plays them and GW doesn't seem to have any interest in fully supporting them.
No one plays them because they get no support. They're an all-metal army that hasn't gotten a single new miniature since they were introduced well over a decade ago, they don't have a physical rulebook anymore, and a simple squad of 10 models costs you $80 now. Everything is also direct only and has been for quite some time, and there's a constant fear that the army is going to be Squatted, just in case all the previous issues weren't enough to put you off already.
It's Dark Eldar all over again, except DE didn't have the insane price tags. All you need to do is give the army some proper fething attention, and prices that make some god-damned sense, and people will probably buy them.
Eh, I think the prices make perfect sense.
But then again, I think Games Workshop intentionally prices them high in order to not sell them. I know that seems counter-intuitive, but the reality is so long as they offer them for sale, they are maintaining the product line and can defend the IP. But so long as they don't actually sell any of them, they don't have to make more and can keep the amount of inventory they have to carry to a minimum. A company as large as Games Workshop has plenty of other products to drive revenue. Making the Sisters unattractive as an army choice means it drives players to play other armies instead.
I saw a Sisters hopeful talking about how he/she has been building Tyranids instead. Seems like a perfect example. The prices and lack of support means that player is now playing a different army entirely. They're still playing 40K, but now they are doing it using an army that is likely more profitable since they already sell a large amount of Tyranids.
Remember, there's a large investment in creating a new army. A material investment in production, a manpower investment in writers/artists/designers, and a space investment to carry inventory. With a product line as broad as 40K, it isn't a question of "Will this army sell models?" 40K has 11 army factions with current-generation models (and a handful of subfactions when you consider the various Spess Mahreens). That's a lot of products that essentially compete against one another. So the design of 40K armies is to attack as many different customer segments as possible. But at a certain point, you potentially see diminishing returns. If GW redoes the Sisters of Battle, are the Sisters models being sold new sales, or are they just cannibalizing sales from another line of miniatures Games Workshop already sells? In the mean time, any resources in time, money, materials and manpower being used to make the Sisters models is not being used to make something else. The question, especially with a company as large as GW and a product as mature as Warhammer 40K, is never "Will it sell?" That's far too simplified. The real question is "What will sell best?
Eldar players still haven't seen plastic Aspect Warriors (aside from the Dire Avengers). Take that into consideration when you consider Games Workshop's "How do we use our resources best?" question because obviously "Howling Banshees" or "Fire Dragons" hasn't been the answer to that question yet. Consider the fact that you can still get 10 metal IGuard for less than half what it costs to buy 10 metal Sisters that are approximately the same size because ultimately you still need all the same vehicles and other support units to play the army regardless of what troop type you choose.
I mean, we don't really know the answers to any of the theoreticals I've presented. But the scenarios make sense from a business standpoint. People look at the Sisters of Battle and think "Games Workshop is stupid! They are overlooking easy money!" but the real-world equation is far more complicated than "Release new Sisters, profit."
Right now, the Sisters Codex cost nearly nothing to make because all of the art and fluff was recycled and nearly nothing to sell because it has almost no carrying costs other than bandwidth. Every time they "sell" a copy of it, it's almost all profit. They may not sell a lot of them, but it's irrelevant because they have no leftover inventory being wasted. Switching from a Zero-Cost model where they simply sustain the existing player base with as high of margins as possible to a significant investment like a total model range overhaul is a huge undertaking.
No player base deserves new models more than the Sisters of Battle players for their dedication and persistence. And I'd love to see it happen if just for the conversion possibility (assuming the models are scaled properly and not like the chunky IGuard mess). But William Munny said it best.
Do you really think those three factions should be put on the same level as just “troops of the Inquisition”? Do you not see how the Sisters of Battle are much, much more independent from the Inquisition that the Grey Knights, which themselves are much more independent from the Inquisition than the Deathwatch?
They wouldn't be 'just troops', but good try. Their level of independence doesn't matter to me; in this purely theoretical exercise, I feel that a full fledged Inquisition book could easily include and accommodate Sisters, GK, DW, and universal Inq elements. None of these factions would be any more marginalized than they currently are, and I dare say that a properly done book would flesh them out better than the current offerings.
The Home Nuggeteer wrote: Sidstyler, the tau, which I play, add nothing to the setting. They barely make a ripple in the galactic stage, are all but ignored by chaos and were created to have something more anime fan for the iom to fight. They could have easily been filled by something that existed, like exodites. The reason I left it out was that I feel that whenever a thread comes up like this the arguement for cutting the tau is always way overdone, and repeated far too often. They seem out of place.
I wouldn't have started 40k if it weren't for Tau, so apparently Tau added a hell of a lot to the setting for me. Of course I imagine that would have been just fine for this fething community if I hadn't started; less weeb trash stinking up the place, right?
The Home Nuggeteer wrote: Sidstyler, the tau, which I play, add nothing to the setting. They barely make a ripple in the galactic stage, are all but ignored by chaos and were created to have something more anime fan for the iom to fight. They could have easily been filled by something that existed, like exodites. The reason I left it out was that I feel that whenever a thread comes up like this the arguement for cutting the tau is always way overdone, and repeated far too often. They seem out of place.
I wouldn't have started 40k if it weren't for Tau, so apparently Tau added a hell of a lot to the setting for me. Of course I imagine that would have been just fine for this fething community if I hadn't started; less weeb trash stinking up the place, right?
Nah. Animesque stuff makes more sense some games than others and there's some cross-contamination, I for one would be happy to have you running about with Yu Jing or Retribution even if there were no Tau at all.
Consider also that the debate as framed here suggests picking the army that fits the least, it's not an army that's a complete waste of space and contributes nothing (I was about to write "or GW wouldn't have released it" here but then I remembered Imperial Knights), it's the army that is the outlier if we start looking for patterns within the rest. Tau don't have the mysticism common to the rest of the mythos.
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Alvar wrote: The Eldar. they are a dieing race. Let them die
"Dying". Not to mention that if this is your criteria we should get rid of everyone and leave the Orks, Tyranids, and Daemons to fight over their corpses.
(Humanity: Slowly tearing itself apart. Tau: Woefully unprepared to face the broader galaxy. Necrons: Already dead.)
I'm actually more fond of Haqqislam, though I don't think it matters because Infinity in general is seen as the "anime game" so they're all weeb factions. I did pick Retribution though, so hilariously I bought into the animu weeb army for Warmachine, too. Except the community for Warmachine is nowhere near as hostile to Ret players as the community for 40k is to Tau players.
In any case it doesn't matter, I wanted to play 40k. I picked Tau because I wanted to play Tau in 40k, obviously. Getting rid of Tau means I can't play 40k anymore, and I have a lot of models that no longer serve any purpose, as I bought them solely to play 40k with and am not interested in running them as "counts as" for a different game. So telling me that everything will be fine because I can just play a weeb faction from another game instead isn't really going to solve my current issue with the 40k fanbase being stupid, stubborn fething dicks and refusing to let me enjoy my hobby.
Alvar wrote: The Eldar. they are a dieing race. Let them die
"Dying". Not to mention that if this is your criteria we should get rid of everyone and leave the Orks, Tyranids, and Daemons to fight over their corpses.
(Humanity: Slowly tearing itself apart. Tau: Woefully unprepared to face the broader galaxy. Necrons: Already dead.)
That's exactly what I was thinking. I say feth it in any case, if you're going to remove one faction you might as well remove all of them. Three factions would be far easier to balance than what GW's supporting now, anyway.
Sidstyler wrote: I'm actually more fond of Haqqislam, though I don't think it matters because Infinity in general is seen as the "anime game" so they're all weeb factions. I did pick Retribution though, so hilariously I bought into the animu weeb army for Warmachine, too. Except the community for Warmachine is nowhere near as hostile to Ret players as the community for 40k is to Tau players.
In any case it doesn't matter, I wanted to play 40k. I picked Tau because I wanted to play Tau in 40k, obviously. Getting rid of Tau means I can't play 40k anymore, and I have a lot of models that no longer serve any purpose, as I bought them solely to play 40k with and am not interested in running them as "counts as" for a different game. So telling me that everything will be fine because I can just play a weeb faction from another game instead isn't really going to solve my current issue with the 40k fanbase being stupid, stubborn fething dicks and refusing to let me enjoy my hobby.
You sounded like you were taking the grumbling about Tau as a personal attack on you, thought I'd point out that we're (or at least I am) objecting to the Tau on basis of slightly more sophisticated logic than "feth the weeb trash". GW is never actually going to delete them, they sell too well, so at the end of the day your models are safe.
As to the 40k community most tabletop wargames work very well rules-as-written; 40k needs community answers to questions the rulebooks don't answer and the power curve is such that an individual play group has to have a consistent meta within itself. The result ends up being that players of other games can be equipped to deal with anyone playing the game any way, but 40k players have to focus down on people playing the game in a specific way or it becomes prohibitively expensive. This ends up with folks taking the reality of the situation too far and assuming it's their right and duty to judge how the game should and should not be played and start being a dick to people on the Internet about it, in extreme cases they start being a dick to people in person about it and drive them off go play with nice people instead. This is a problem that occurs in pockets, you may find one game store full of jerks and go ten miles away and find another one full of relaxed/laid-back folks.
Peregrine wrote: Sorry, I thought this thread was about "what army would you remove if you had the chance", not "GW is never going to remove an army because they'd rather milk the cash cow obsessively with tons of pointless rulebooks".
Considering your main vote when towards Tyranids, it's hard to take the bolded part seriously.
How do you get so emotionally involved with all the arguments you have on this site? Ever considered taking a little less full on approach? You're right about 90% of the time with most of your arguments that I've read but because you're so aggressive it just baits people into responding unnecessarily...
Blacksails wrote: Then you might as well make a codex for every first founding chapter.
Then, in fairness to every other faction, release a codex for every single dynasty, hive fleet, regiment, clan, kabal, craftworld, and sept.
I'm all for options, but you'd be looking at 50+ codices. That's ridiculous. Even if they were supplements, that's a gak ton of repetition for what ultimately would boil down to a few characters and a special unit or two per codex.
Yes, which is why they would never make a Codex for every single thing.
But if my brother gets a candy bar while I don't, I will ask for one too. Not ask to have his taken away.
Honour guard then, whatever, it doesn't matter.
So you want Sanguinary Guard to lose their Jump Packs?
And yes, it totally matters!
People can't run in here yelling that unit X and unit Y are so alike that unit Y could be removed when in fact they are completely different.
Next they are going to tell us that Sanguinary Priests are just like Techmarines.
So in short there are a few points:
-Power level: I don't see how this helps.
-Access to more units: Which they don't have for a good reason. Blood Angels don't take TFC's or Hunters.
-Development time for other Factions: If they just removed Tyranids, they could spend that time on Blood Angels.
It's a non-argument because it basically says that you want them to remove Codex X so they can spend more time on Codex <whatever I play>.
And yeah, I am sure the "benefits" outweigh the cons if you don't play those Codices yourself.
They've had those books for 18 years now if you count Angels of Death, otherwise it are 12.
Unbelievable that we have this threads while also having complaints about armies becoming bland.
So you want Sanguinary Guard to lose their Jump Packs?
And yes, it totally matters!
People can't run in here yelling that unit X and unit Y are so alike that unit Y could be removed when in fact they are completely different.
Next they are going to tell us that Sanguinary Priests are just like Techmarines.
So in short there are a few points:
-Power level: I don't see how this helps.
-Access to more units: Which they don't have for a good reason. Blood Angels don't take TFC's or Hunters.
-Development time for other Factions: If they just removed Tyranids, they could spend that time on Blood Angels.
It's a non-argument because it basically says that you want them to remove Codex X so they can spend more time on Codex <whatever I play>.
And yeah, I am sure the "benefits" outweigh the cons if you don't play those Codices yourself.
They've had those books for 18 years now if you count Angels of Death, otherwise it are 12.
Unbelievable that we have this threads while also having complaints about armies becoming bland.
Nope. Sanguiniary Priests are just like Apothecaries.
Honestly all you'd need to do to mix all the Space Marine Codexes into one book is give everything more options. Why can't you have Honour Guard with Jump Packs, or Bikes, or Terminator armour? Why are Tacticals stuck with bolters and one special/one heavy? Why can't Assault Marines have useful special weapons? Broaden access to options that ought to be broader and nobody loses anything by being made into a Chapter Tactic with an appendix chapter detailing your special characters and one or two unique units.
Do you know what this whimsical fluff that was never mentioned outside of 3rd edition means? Well, here is what it means. It means that GK, that have always been devoted to fighting daemons, and still are, and care only about demons, are often working together with Inquisitors that fight demons. No big deal, here. It also means that Deathwatch, which are very special teams of marines that are sent by Ordo Xenos inquisitors, and only by them, to do specific missions that are always about fighting xenos, are, well, working a lot with Inquisitors that fight xenos (duh!). And finally, it means that Sisters of Battle, that are the troops of the Ecclesiarchy, which have their own aims and wars that are related to the politics of the Eclesiarchy and the Sisters' own faith, that spend a lot of time fighting xenos (like Orks and Necrons) and on rare occasion will also fight daemons, but also a lot fighting against heretics, sometime works with Inquisitors that fight against heretics.
So, are you saying they aren't the chamber militant of the Ordo Hereticus? Because I'm seeing no refutation of that in this paragraph.
To that end, I'll go ahead and say it makes sense for Sisters to be part of an Inquisition book, you know, seeing as they are a chamber militant of the Inquisition.
Spoiler:
Do you really think those three factions should be put on the same level as just “troops of the Inquisition”? Do you not see how the Sisters of Battle are much, much more independent from the Inquisition that the Grey Knights, which themselves are much more independent from the Inquisition than the Deathwatch?
They wouldn't be 'just troops', but good try. Their level of independence doesn't matter to me; in this purely theoretical exercise, I feel that a full fledged Inquisition book could easily include and accommodate Sisters, GK, DW, and universal Inq elements. None of these factions would be any more marginalized than they currently are, and I dare say that a properly done book would flesh them out better than the current offerings.
It would basically make as much sense to melt Sisters with Inquisition as it would make to melt them with Mechanicum or Astra Militarum.
No, because Sisters are a Chamber Militant of the Inquisition, whether or not you like that fluff. Therefore your comparison is weak, as the Sisters don't have near the connection to the Guard or Ad Mech as they do the Inquisition.
But I understand you're a Sisters player, which will obviously mean you support nothing but a fully independent codex. I do think a full codex would be good for the Sisters, but in the spirit of reducing the amount of books to some sort of logical collection, an Inquisition book containing the three chambers militant makes perfect sense.
SoB are Not part of the Inquisition. The Ecclesiarchy (or as others call it the Imperial Church) is a completely separate organization and compeletly separate entity that. The SoB aka the AS serve as the millitary arm of the Ecclesiarchy.
The Adepta Sororitas (also known as "the Sisterhood" or "Daughters of the Emperor") are an all-female subdivision of the religious organisation known as the Ecclesiarchy or Ministorum. The Sisterhood's Orders Militant serve as the Ecclesiarchy's fighting arm, mercilessly rooting out corruption and heresy within humanity and every organisation of the Adeptus Terra.
There is naturally some overlap between the duties of the Sisterhood and the Inquisition; for this reason, although the Inquisition and the Sisterhood remain entirely separate organisations, the Orders Militant of the Sisterhood also act in a similar role to the Chamber Militants of the Inquisition, especially the Ordo Hereticus.
Although completely unalike in their methods (where Inquisitors are analytical and suspicious, the Sisters of Battle are zealous and unquestioning of dogma) the Sisters and the Hereticus also have the common purpose of eradicating threats from within. Recognising this, the two organisations joined together in their efforts, a relationship formalised by the Convocation of Nephilim. Although the Sororitas and its Sisters of Battle remain part of the Ecclesiarchy, they respond when called upon by Inquisitors of the Ordo Hereticus
The only reason why the SoB and the Ordo Hereticus work together is because many time's their goals are the same. However they remain part of two separate orgainizations, the SoB with the Ecclesiarchy (officially the Adeptus Ministorum) and the ordo Hereticus with the Inquisition. It is mostly because of the Convocation of Nephilim why both the SoB and the Ordo Hereticus are quite friendly to each-other. Both organizations were founded for essentially the same purpose but have always remained separate from each other from the start.
The Convocation of Nephilim occurred after the Age of Apostasy and following the death of Goge Vandire. During this time, the Imperium suffered from such a terrible conflict that it nearly tore itself apart. Thus, a new branch of the Inquisition was formed known as the Ordo Hereticus. At the height of the Thorian Reformation, the female Imperial Cult known as the Daughters of the Emperor had their relationship with the Ordo Hereticus codified in the Convocation, thus leading to the formation of the Adepta Sororitas.This female sisterhood became the Chamber Militant of the Ministorum (Ecclesiarchy) where they purged the deviant, corrupt and heretical from the ranks of the Ecclesiarchy following the dismantlement of the Frateris Templar.
AnomanderRake wrote: You sounded like you were taking the grumbling about Tau as a personal attack on you
Well, this is kind of a personal hobby to begin with. You don't just buy a product, you build it, you paint it, you read all the fluff and learn about all the characters, you get to know all the ins and outs of it on the table, you start customizing models and making up your own stuff, in the end you put a little part of your soul into it and make it yours.
So it really shouldn't come as any surprise that I take it personally when people say that they want my army to be invalidated, for me to lose my investment and to have all that time and money go to waste, and to be left with the "option" of either picking a different faction that they like, or playing a different game entirely. Regardless of whether or not anyone has anything against me personally, the end result is the same; I lose an army I love and I'm stuck with a bunch of worthless models that I can't use for the game I bought them for.
And as far as I'm concerned, nothing is safe after watching what GW is doing to Fantasy with the End Times and the current rumors for 9th edition.
Kinda why I voted for none...no one in this hobby that has spent money..time..brain cells..and all..deserves to have their chosen army/faction removed.
Leave these phallus moves to GW..and the rest of us just play the damn game.
Kangodo wrote: So you want Sanguinary Guard to lose their Jump Packs?
Give honour guard a jet pack option. Solved.
You're getting bogged down in the minutiae instead of understanding how this could be pulled off.
And yes, it totally matters!
People can't run in here yelling that unit X and unit Y are so alike that unit Y could be removed when in fact they are completely different.
Next they are going to tell us that Sanguinary Priests are just like Techmarines.
Are you going to be ridiculous and make silly comparisons? If so, I have no desire to continue this.
You and I both know Techmarines and completely different from Sanguinary Guard. Sanguinary Guard and Honour Guard (if Honour Guard had a jet pack option, which, why not?) share many similarities and one could easily represent the other crunch wise allowing players to continue using their models virtually unchanged.
So in short there are a few points:
-Power level: I don't see how this helps.
You don't see how having a single marine book stops there being discrepancies between marine books? You know, like how BA were awful tier and vanilla marines were quite good prior to BA getting an update? Like how DA are trailing behind? You don't see how a single book would stop that completely?
-Access to more units: Which they don't have for a good reason. Blood Angels don't take TFC's or Hunters.
Why? Is there fluff that states explicitly that they will never ever use those units? It wasn't so long ago the Stormraven was a BA only unit. Minor things like that change over time, and I hardly think getting access to TFC as a BA player is going to break the army fluff wise. There's also nothing stopping from just not taking units you don't want to. Kind of like how Salamander players often forego speeders for fluff reasons.
-Development time for other Factions: If they just removed Tyranids, they could spend that time on Blood Angels.
It's a non-argument because it basically says that you want them to remove Codex X so they can spend more time on Codex <whatever I play>.
No, its a perfectly reasonable argument if you accept that all marines are incredibly similar. I'm not asking for Nids to be removed because there's no other army that plays like them. BA, SW, DA, and vanilla marines are all power armour guys with bolters riding in rhinos with the same support tanks and general force org structure and unit selection. Which is why I'd ask for them to be merged; the army would still exist in that you can paint your guys red, put BA iconography on them, call them BA, use a rule in game that gives them CT: BA, and probably have one or two units/characters that are distinctly BA.
Not having to spend development time on 4 different marine codices would free up time to either add completely different factions, or produce higher quality books for all factions. Plus, I don't know about you, but I'd prefer a game with 12 distinct factions, not one with 12 factions, 4 of which are mostly colour variations and fluff distinctions that any significant difference on the table top.
And yeah, I am sure the "benefits" outweigh the cons if you don't play those Codices yourself.
They've had those books for 18 years now if you count Angels of Death, otherwise it are 12.
I don't care how long the books have been around. BT had their book for a number of years and its gone. Not to mention this a theoretical exercise. Of course you being a marine player are naturally going to dislike an idea that effectively cuts their special snowflake status, but them's the breaks on the internet.
Unbelievable that we have this threads while also having complaints about armies becoming bland.
Unbelievable this come from different people or address different complaints about this blandification.
SoB are Not part of the Inquisition. The Ecclesiarchy (or as others call it the Imperial Church) is a completely separate organization and compeletly separate entity that. The SoB aka the AS serve as the millitary arm of the Ecclesiarchy.
The Adepta Sororitas (also known as "the Sisterhood" or "Daughters of the Emperor") are an all-female subdivision of the religious organisation known as the Ecclesiarchy or Ministorum. The Sisterhood's Orders Militant serve as the Ecclesiarchy's fighting arm, mercilessly rooting out corruption and heresy within humanity and every organisation of the Adeptus Terra.
There is naturally some overlap between the duties of the Sisterhood and the Inquisition; for this reason, although the Inquisition and the Sisterhood remain entirely separate organisations, the Orders Militant of the Sisterhood also act in a similar role to the Chamber Militants of the Inquisition, especially the Ordo Hereticus.
Although completely unalike in their methods (where Inquisitors are analytical and suspicious, the Sisters of Battle are zealous and unquestioning of dogma) the Sisters and the Hereticus also have the common purpose of eradicating threats from within. Recognising this, the two organisations joined together in their efforts, a relationship formalised by the Convocation of Nephilim. Although the Sororitas and its Sisters of Battle remain part of the Ecclesiarchy, they respond when called upon by Inquisitors of the Ordo Hereticus
The only reason why the SoB and the Ordo Hereticus work together is because many time's their goals are the same. However they remain part of two separate orgainizations, the SoB with the Ecclesiarchy (officially the Adeptus Ministorum) and the ordo Hereticus with the Inquisition. It is mostly because of the Convocation of Nephilim why both the SoB and the Ordo Hereticus are quite friendly to each-other. Both organizations were founded for essentially the same purpose but have always remained separate from each other from the start.
The Convocation of Nephilim occurred after the Age of Apostasy and following the death of Goge Vandire. During this time, the Imperium suffered from such a terrible conflict that it nearly tore itself apart. Thus, a new branch of the Inquisition was formed known as the Ordo Hereticus. At the height of the Thorian Reformation, the female Imperial Cult known as the Daughters of the Emperor had their relationship with the Ordo Hereticus codified in the Convocation, thus leading to the formation of the Adepta Sororitas.This female sisterhood became the Chamber Militant of the Ministorum (Ecclesiarchy) where they purged the deviant, corrupt and heretical from the ranks of the Ecclesiarchy following the dismantlement of the Frateris Templar.
Interesting read. Still, nothing there really refutes that its still logical to include Sisters in an Inq book, seeing as they are one of the chambers militant. I said before, I'd be fine if they had their own distinct codex, but keeping in theme with this thread, if any factions are going to rolled together in a larger book, Sisters make reasonable companions to an Inq book.
Unless we get a book for forces of the Ecclesiarchy, with religious fanatic mobs and other fun stuff.
-Development time for other Factions: If they just removed Tyranids, they could spend that time on Blood Angels.
It's a non-argument because it basically says that you want them to remove Codex X so they can spend more time on Codex <whatever I play>.
The fact that you don't like the argument doesn't make it a non-argument.
And yeah, I am sure the "benefits" outweigh the cons if you don't play those Codices yourself.
They've had those books for 18 years now if you count Angels of Death, otherwise it are 12.
What's your point?
40k melee has been nonsensical for at least a decade - it doesn't somehow make it better or mean we shouldn't try to fix it.
If I ignore Imperial Knights and Militarium Tempestus and other mini-factions which shouldn't have had standalone codexes in the first place, I'd remove IG.
The army looks like a bunch of historical miniatures were accidentally placed on the wrong game table. Hate the deformed WWI/interbellum aesthetic of the vehicles which looks out of place in a sci-fi setting. The guard should have mas-produced low quality equipment but it doesn't have to be so early 20th century. In my opinion tanks should look intimidating, not like laughable antiques that should have been left in a museum. Added benefit of removing guard is getting rid of half the FW junk in the game. In addition to the army's visual dullness, I often encounter it played like a static gun-line which makes it game wise just as boring.
Voted for Militarium Tempestus. Why add a faction with like 5 units? Why not just make a supplement for AM?
Also, I've never understood Imperial Knights. I suggest making them unable to be a primary detachment, instead they can only be, say a Lord Of War in a primary.
Antario wrote: If I ignore Imperial Knights and Militarium Tempestus and other mini-factions which shouldn't have had standalone codexes in the first place, I'd remove IG.
The army looks like a bunch of historical miniatures were accidentally placed on the wrong game table. Hate the deformed WWI/interbellum aesthetic of the vehicles which looks out of place in a sci-fi setting. The guard should have mas-produced low quality equipment but it doesn't have to be so early 20th century. In my opinion tanks should look intimidating, not like laughable antiques that should have been left in a museum. Added benefit of removing guard is getting rid of half the FW junk in the game. In addition to the army's visual dullness, I often encounter it played like a static gun-line which makes it game wise just as boring.
With that half of the forge world the setting loses about 3/4s of its grimdark. The I.G. might not add cool visuals but they are relatable and from a setting standpoint they are fairly necessary for no other reason than to be slaughtered and hold the line while the space marines take the credit and to have the link between the average human playing the game and the crazy crap in the game. The guard act like normal people like you and me and that is why they are there, not to be interesting looking, not to be intimidating, but rather to be redshirted to accentuate the brutality and grit that characterizes the setting. They are bland and in their blandness they are normal unmodified garden variety humans wielding backwards and outdated weapons that despite this hold the line against the legions of terrifying crazy and evil things that the galaxy throws at them.
Also, hove you looked into guard fluff at all? The reason they are bland and static on the table is the people who make the molds and rules fault, in the fluff the guard are the most varied and eclectic force in the galaxy, with infinite varieties of guns and armor and tactics. If anything they should have some upgrade sprues added or new models added for units.
The Home Nuggeteer wrote: Sidstyler, the tau, which I play, add nothing to the setting. They barely make a ripple in the galactic stage, are all but ignored by chaos and were created to have something more anime fan for the iom to fight. They could have easily been filled by something that existed, like exodites. The reason I left it out was that I feel that whenever a thread comes up like this the arguement for cutting the tau is always way overdone, and repeated far too often. They seem out of place.
I wouldn't have started 40k if it weren't for Tau, so apparently Tau added a hell of a lot to the setting for me. Of course I imagine that would have been just fine for this fething community if I hadn't started; less weeb trash stinking up the place, right?
Cry me a river. You make it seem like you re some victim here, some people want my armies out as well in this lovely thread. Besides, If GW added ponies army, thousands of people would buy and then the army would be removed thanks to fanbase pressure, well I would feel for ponies owners on some level but the crap would have to go no matter what. While 40k is ridiculous and silly enough to embrace many things, Tau cross the line a lot. Majority of people who were into 40k at the time didnt want anime suits worn by starwarsish nice aliens but gw did it and those people still bitch and probably will. GW scored mission acomplished and new players came in but why should I for example accept it and stop hoping that some day I willl read how most embarassingly some mary sue Calgar or Draigo single handly removed entire Tau race from the universe. I will shed a tear for you though I promise.
Also, 14 years means nothing, some ridiculous guys here want csm, nids or IG out and Im sure majority posted in their spiderman pyjama looking tenderly at their bobba fett poster, holding warcraft special edition mug and hugging their cat. Way to not get 40 at all really, csm nids out lol I wonder how many of those are Tau players, we need polls before polls. Anyway anime and 40k should be different ghettos and I say this being an Evengelion fanboy.
Though while Tau are in 40k, I have to say I try to get along with them. I play them in dow soulstorm for example, I even really dig the art where they fight nids, it's an interesting showdown. If GW fixed them from admiral ackbar cousins to some kind of vicious grey aliens in suits closer to what you have in xcom Id be all for keeping them. Im not like a couple of guys I know who refuse to acknowledge tau as part of universe and dont allow them on their tables to 'not make it pathetic' heh. But hey a beautiful thread like that is no place for being nice so enough and I wish you many happy gaming years with Tau.... in Mass Effect when GW sells them to Bioware or whats their name.
If GW fixed them from admiral ackbar cousins to some kind of vicious grey aliens in suits closer to what you have in xcom Id be all for keeping them.
Tau are an expansionist empire that assimilates other races into their collective and strips them of their rights and identities. Those who resist are eliminated through the use of superior technology.....How are tau and the xcom aliens not similar in your mind?
Xcom aliens even have an ethereal caste!
The only difference in fundamental similarities is that the xcom aliens use psychic powers, and the tau don't.
If you don't think Tau are grimdark enough, then you have either not read their codex, or are not reading enough between the lines.
I don't mind you saying that they should be removed or changed, that is fine, but your reasoning here seems a little off.
If GW fixed them from admiral ackbar cousins to some kind of vicious grey aliens in suits closer to what you have in xcom Id be all for keeping them.
Tau are an expansionist empire that assimilates other races into their collective and strips them of their rights and identities. Those who resist are eliminated through the use of superior technology.....How are tau and the xcom aliens not similar in your mind?
Xcom aliens even have an ethereal caste!
The only difference in fundamental similarities is that the xcom aliens use psychic powers, and the tau don't.
If you don't think Tau are grimdark enough, then you have either not read their codex, or are not reading enough between the lines.
I don't mind you saying that they should be removed or changed, that is fine, but your reasoning here seems a little off.
Xcom Aliens are actually threatening and not just elitist douchebags. Please don't compare the awesome Xcom to Tau
Note: I did not vote to remove Tau, I enjoy killing them too much
Matthew wrote: Voted for Militarium Tempestus. Why add a faction with like 5 units? Why not just make a supplement for AM?
Also, I've never understood Imperial Knights. I suggest making them unable to be a primary detachment, instead they can only be, say a Lord Of War in a primary.
Its ok. IK really only work competitively if they're supporting another codex. If its just them, they have too many weaknesses to be competitive. Even with the Forge World knights. So them being their own codex is fine.
Plumbumbarum wrote: Majority of people who were into 40k at the time didnt want anime suits
Correction: Starship Troopers power armor. IOW, what GW ripped off (and made a lot less awesome) to make their space marines.
worn by starwarsish nice aliens
Since when are Tau nice? In any setting besides 40k they'd be the bad guys. They claim to be about the greater good, but in the same "some Tau are more equal than others" sense that the US brings peace and democracy to any country that happens to be sitting on valuable oil or in a useful spot to be a buffer against the Soviets. The only way they're really any better than the other factions in 40k is that they're pragmatic enough to offer you a chance to surrender and become a productive slave instead of slaughtering you just for fun, and to use science and engineering to build a better gun to kill you more efficiently if you refuse.
If GW fixed them from admiral ackbar cousins to some kind of vicious grey aliens in suits closer to what you have in xcom Id be all for keeping them.
Tau are an expansionist empire that assimilates other races into their collective and strips them of their rights and identities. Those who resist are eliminated through the use of superior technology.....How are tau and the xcom aliens not similar in your mind?
Xcom aliens even have an ethereal caste!
The only difference in fundamental similarities is that the xcom aliens use psychic powers, and the tau don't.
If you don't think Tau are grimdark enough, then you have either not read their codex, or are not reading enough between the lines.
I don't mind you saying that they should be removed or changed, that is fine, but your reasoning here seems a little off.
Xcom Aliens are actually threatening and not just elitist douchebags. Please don't compare the awesome Xcom to Tau
Note: I did not vote to remove Tau, I enjoy killing them too much
The xcom aliens are ridiculous. Their entire mission is a joke. "Let's cultivate these humans to a level where we can assimilate them, but also give them all of our technology and ways to beat us along the way!" Derp.
Tau are threatening because they actually act with realistic purpose. Xcom aliens appear threatening until you realise that they are actually borderline mentally challenged, and exist only to be killed to develop humanity.
Elitist? The both tau and xcom have the same elitist hierarchy, You cannot use it in a derogatory fashion, without also applying it to the other.
Also, Tau are 'douchebags' because?
Edit: I wish Tau had been better represented in the videogames they were present in. Making them appear to be squeaky clean good guys of the 40k universe didn't do their concept justice, also those god awful japanese accents (DoW I am looking at you) made them more farcical than the orks.
I wish necrons were never made really, because I don't like the fluff or the aeshtetics of either of their two incarnations. No offense to Necron fans of course, and the army seems pretty damn cool gameplay-wise.
If I could add an army, I'd wish for the return of Lost and the Damned proper, with some neat additions from the new chaos codices and units of their own. I imagine a conscript statline but all sorts of random chaotic mutations, curses and benedictions being up for purchase and/or dice rolls, super cheap psykers dying to incompetent demon summoning half the time and looted AM vehicles with pissed of machine spirits occasionally rebelling and gunning down your own guys.
Blacksails wrote: So, are you saying they aren't the chamber militant of the Ordo Hereticus? Because I'm seeing no refutation of that in this paragraph.
To that end, I'll go ahead and say it makes sense for Sisters to be part of an Inquisition book, you know, seeing as they are a chamber militant of the Inquisition.
I am saying the fact that they were declared a chamber militant is completely irrelevant and does not justify at all putting them in the Inquisition book.
Blacksails wrote: Therefore your comparison is weak, as the Sisters don't have near the connection to the Guard or Ad Mech as they do the Inquisition.
The Sisters have as much a connection with the guard as they have with the Inquisition. And the Inquisition has as much connection with the guard as they have with the Sisters. Unless you can show otherwise. That is what I was explaining in this long paragraph where I showed them being a chamber militant was completely irrelevant.
If you look at the last two codex for the Sisters, you will see more reference to the space marines than to the inquisition, really.
jreilly89 wrote: To that end, DA should keep their own codex, as they have their own missions independent of all the other IoM.
Uh? I do not understand your point. A Dark Angel army made using the Space Marines codex would be an army containing only Dark Angels, just like a White Scars army made using the Space Marines codex contains only White Scars.
Antario wrote: If I ignore Imperial Knights and Militarium Tempestus and other mini-factions which shouldn't have had standalone codexes in the first place, I'd remove IG.
The army looks like a bunch of historical miniatures were accidentally placed on the wrong game table. Hate the deformed WWI/interbellum aesthetic of the vehicles which looks out of place in a sci-fi setting. The guard should have mas-produced low quality equipment but it doesn't have to be so early 20th century. In my opinion tanks should look intimidating, not like laughable antiques that should have been left in a museum. Added benefit of removing guard is getting rid of half the FW junk in the game. In addition to the army's visual dullness, I often encounter it played like a static gun-line which makes it game wise just as boring.
With that half of the forge world the setting loses about 3/4s of its grimdark. The I.G. might not add cool visuals but they are relatable and from a setting standpoint they are fairly necessary for no other reason than to be slaughtered and hold the line while the space marines take the credit and to have the link between the average human playing the game and the crazy crap in the game. The guard act like normal people like you and me and that is why they are there, not to be interesting looking, not to be intimidating, but rather to be redshirted to accentuate the brutality and grit that characterizes the setting. They are bland and in their blandness they are normal unmodified garden variety humans wielding backwards and outdated weapons that despite this hold the line against the legions of terrifying crazy and evil things that the galaxy throws at them.
Also, hove you looked into guard fluff at all? The reason they are bland and static on the table is the people who make the molds and rules fault, in the fluff the guard are the most varied and eclectic force in the galaxy, with infinite varieties of guns and armor and tactics. If anything they should have some upgrade sprues added or new models added for units.
I don't have issue with a relatable human faction in the game, merely that it looks like early 20th century military and has terrible game play. Solar Auxilia infantry is a step in the right direction imo.
I don't have issue with a relatable human faction in the game, merely that it looks like early 20th century military and has terrible game play. Solar Auxilia infantry is a step in the right direction imo.
I kind of share your sentiment with the regards to IG origins and aesthetics, which is why I prefer the Elysian Drop troops as IG posterboys. They're obviously based on Allied paratroopers but they're at least more sci-fi in terms of their aeshtics and tactics, like the usage grav-chutes. They're also notable for posseing the only non-bike wheeled vehicles in the Imperium, the Tauros and Tauros Venator, giving the overall a unique position among the supported IG regiments.
I am saying the fact that they were declared a chamber militant is completely irrelevant and does not justify at all putting them in the Inquisition book.
You saying its irrelevant doesn't mean it is irrelevant. Being a chamber militant is in fact relevant and can be valid justification for being in an Inq book. You're simply confusing that you don't like it, with being a valid reason.
The Sisters have as much a connection with the guard as they have with the Inquisition. And the Inquisition has as much connection with the guard as they have with the Sisters. Unless you can show otherwise. That is what I was explaining in this long paragraph where I showed them being a chamber militant was completely irrelevant.
If you look at the last two codex for the Sisters, you will see more reference to the space marines than to the inquisition, really.
I've shown otherwise.
The Sisters are a Chamber Militant of the Inquisition. As in, they exist partially within the Inquisition's organization and structure. The Guard, contrary to that, do not exist within either organization's structure, and nor do the Sisters fall under the same chain of command that has direct authority over the Guard.
Again, you may not like the reason, but it doesn't make it less valid.
All I'm saying is that in the spirit of this thread and merging/cleaning up a few codices, Sisters don't make an unreasonable part of a better Inquisition book.
I suppose it depends on whether the Sisters of Battle are said to be the militant arm of either the Ordo Hereticus or Adeptus Ministorum. Or both. Or neither. Who knows with GW, I doubt even they know where SoB fit in anymore (or even care).
If GW fixed them from admiral ackbar cousins to some kind of vicious grey aliens in suits closer to what you have in xcom Id be all for keeping them.
Tau are an expansionist empire that assimilates other races into their collective and strips them of their rights and identities. Those who resist are eliminated through the use of superior technology.....How are tau and the xcom aliens not similar in your mind?
Xcom aliens even have an ethereal caste!
The only difference in fundamental similarities is that the xcom aliens use psychic powers, and the tau don't.
If you don't think Tau are grimdark enough, then you have either not read their codex, or are not reading enough between the lines.
I don't mind you saying that they should be removed or changed, that is fine, but your reasoning here seems a little off.
I meant more like xcom grey aliens visualy, I hate the look of the race and that of kroot. They dont have that vicious edge I love to see in 40k.
I know Tau are supposed to be the Subtly Grimdark ones and them being current nicest guys in 40k is indeed not a bad grimdark joke but again their visual aesthetic dont follow. Not to mention Im not sure if it was meant like that, I have a glimpse of reading designers notes (or someone else referencing designers notes, dont binge on benzos and booze kids heh) where it said they wanted a really bright race for constrast (bleh) with all the grimdark so maybe they just added the whole accept or die thing to Tau to give them excuse to fight and tool up, and greater goood was really greater good at the beginning. I like the widely accepted interpretation of it as the communist type bs though so fluff Id say is almost ok. Almost as the races under Tau empire dont suffer enough imo ans vs options you have in the universe it's still the best one maybe.
Since when are Tau nice? In any setting besides 40k they'd be the bad guys. They claim to be about the greater good, but in the same "some Tau are more equal than others" sense that the US brings peace and democracy to any country that happens to be sitting on valuable oil or in a useful spot to be a buffer against the Soviets. The only way they're really any better than the other factions in 40k is that they're pragmatic enough to offer you a chance to surrender and become a productive slave instead of slaughtering you just for fun, and to use science and engineering to build a better gun to kill you more efficiently if you refuse.
They re not nice but they look nice and kroot look like something from marvell comic book. For me it looks like they really wanted to add something different visualy that will stand out. And they succeeded imo.
Also USA lets you live more or less peacefuly if you lick its arse forget your roots and let corporations rob you into borderline poverty. Im not sure it's evil enough for 40k, it's subtle I know but not sure it should be that subtle where subtle is not exactly the name of the game and again, stands out. Im not into contrast for the sake of contrast, you can compare to other sf or art in general or real life.
I don't get the 'their visual aesthetic doesn't fit' argument. They're literally an alien species, of course they're going to look different. Tyranids, Eldar also look different, does their visual aesthetic also not fit?
I want the armies to look different, they're different species in a big Galaxy. If we discovered some alien species I'm sure 'their visual aesthetic' won't fit with ours.
Also Tau are my favourite army, I really don't get all the hate directed at them. They're almsot as dark as other armies, it's just subtle, and yeah they look different, so what.
Big Blind Bill wrote:The xcom aliens are ridiculous. Their entire mission is a joke. "Let's cultivate these humans to a level where we can assimilate them, but also give them all of our technology and ways to beat us along the way!" Derp.
Yeah its B class tribute all the way and Im not sure if those are good points against xcom. You just go with it.
Also ridiculous thats a ticket to 40k though nids already have some of their flavour like psychic aliens invading your planet and droping toxic clouds at you. So I guess GW cant make Tau like that fluff wise but they could move them into that direction imo.
Big Blind Bill wrote:Tau are threatening because they actually act with realistic purpose
Thats actualy another reason why they dont fit
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ImAGeek wrote: I don't get the 'their visual aesthetic doesn't fit' argument. They're literally an alien species, of course they're going to look different. Tyranids, Eldar also look different, does their visual aesthetic also not fit?
I want the armies to look different, they're different species in a big Galaxy. If we discovered some alien species I'm sure 'their visual aesthetic' won't fit with ours.
Also Tau are my favourite army, I really don't get all the hate directed at them. They're almsot as dark as other armies, it's just subtle, and yeah they look different, so what.
Different good, nice bad. Look at sheep how cuddly and sweet it is then look at the shark. Look at Gigers alien, or closer to the topic, xcom grey alien and see how unsettling it is. Then look at Tau, see the difference? They wouldnt stand out on good guys flag ship in star wars.
Hey you cant negate all my hard work on that post written at 6am with the ancient phone when sleep deprived, hangovered and additionaly dizzy for various reasons just because I want to see you crying over the fluff section in 8th edition BRB . What kind of a community are you people who get offended or ignore posts.
Anyway I was just winding you up with ott claims and tone because you get so emotional about Tau. Im the same btw about my armies though more grimdark because I react with random aggression, hate and negativity. See I fit better in 40k heh.
I dont even want Tau out anymore, I did at some point where crisis suits minis were their main suits but now new broadsides being awesome and crisis suit commander show that GW will fix the machines and thats enough for me to not be bothered that much. Still hate how their faces look, cant help it and believe me I tried. Other than that they can stay, you cant make 40k into coherent whole all at once anyway.
Also their whole front is that they're good - that's what they want you to think, and in their mind they are good. They don't look good or evil, they look like professional alien soldiers - exactly what they are. Not everything has to be painted black or have spikes to be evil.
If GW fixed them from admiral ackbar cousins to some kind of vicious grey aliens in suits closer to what you have in xcom Id be all for keeping them.
Tau are an expansionist empire that assimilates other races into their collective and strips them of their rights and identities. Those who resist are eliminated through the use of superior technology.....How are tau and the xcom aliens not similar in your mind?
Xcom aliens even have an ethereal caste!
The only difference in fundamental similarities is that the xcom aliens use psychic powers, and the tau don't.
If you don't think Tau are grimdark enough, then you have either not read their codex, or are not reading enough between the lines.
I don't mind you saying that they should be removed or changed, that is fine, but your reasoning here seems a little off.
Xcom Aliens are actually threatening and not just elitist douchebags. Please don't compare the awesome Xcom to Tau
Note: I did not vote to remove Tau, I enjoy killing them too much
The xcom aliens are ridiculous. Their entire mission is a joke. "Let's cultivate these humans to a level where we can assimilate them, but also give them all of our technology and ways to beat us along the way!" Derp.
Tau are threatening because they actually act with realistic purpose. Xcom aliens appear threatening until you realise that they are actually borderline mentally challenged, and exist only to be killed to develop humanity.
Elitist? The both tau and xcom have the same elitist hierarchy, You cannot use it in a derogatory fashion, without also applying it to the other.
Also, Tau are 'douchebags' because?
Edit: I wish Tau had been better represented in the videogames they were present in. Making them appear to be squeaky clean good guys of the 40k universe didn't do their concept justice, also those god awful japanese accents (DoW I am looking at you) made them more farcical than the orks.
I would hardly say they gave their technology, more like were murdered and had it taken. Tau are much more elitist. They preach "greater good" even though they basically murder and assimilate people. Xcom Aliens never say anything about the greater good and are all about invading the Earth.
Neither do Eldar. Not in the least. Yet they're almost universally accepted (the rules not so much) whereas Tau are almost universally reviled.
Eldar dont fit as well as ponytail elves but wraith constructs and some of the infantry make up for it a bit. With Tau you get impression of menacing neither from vehicles/ suits nor their physique. Also eldar art is on average darker I think.
But yes eldar barely fit and their fluff is just elves in space. Another reason why I dont care about Tau being removed, they'd have to go together with eldar.
Sidstyler wrote:
Plumbumbarum wrote: They wouldnt stand out on good guys flag ship in star wars.
They wouldn't stand out among the bad guys, either. If anything they'd probably fit in more.
I disagree but if that was so, it would only be because bad guys in star wars look like wimps as well heh.
Well, Tau are technically one of the "Good" factions in the same sense that Imperials, Eldar and Necrons are:
They are a group of people, largely messed up in overall terms, containing some decent guys.
Other factions can't really say that. Tyranids eat everyone. Chaos are madness and horror incarnate and the servants thereof. Orks live entirely in the moment and are effectively amoral. Dark Eldar torture to live.
ImAGeek wrote: Also their whole front is that they're good - that's what they want you to think, and in their mind they are good. They don't look good or evil, they look like professional alien soldiers - exactly what they are. Not everything has to be painted black or have spikes to be evil.
Too much subtlety, my head hurts. Yes they dont need to be black but looking at least like something serious would help. Also it's 40k it's not Dune or high literature or sth, sometimes in your face is better ie in ridiculous paragon of grimdark there is only war games. It's like telling Lovecraft to cut on adjectives.
Also truth be told chaos/ mutated/ something Tau codex like DE for eldar is something Id love to see.
ImAGeek wrote: Also their whole front is that they're good - that's what they want you to think, and in their mind they are good. They don't look good or evil, they look like professional alien soldiers - exactly what they are. Not everything has to be painted black or have spikes to be evil.
Too much subtlety, my head hurts. Yes they dont need to be black but looking at least like something serious would help. Also it's 40k it's not Dune or high literature or sth, sometimes in your face is better ie in ridiculous paragon of grimdark there is only war games. It's like telling Lovecraft to cut on adjectives.
Also truth be told chaos/ mutated/ something Tau codex like DE for eldar is something Id love to see.
So you want 40k to be even more flat and one dimensional? Okay, that's your opinion. I'm all for a bit more complexity in the fluff, and the subtle nuances of the Tau Empire is one of the better bits of the background in my opinion, next to some of the Lovecraftian Necron stuff (IA12).
And they do look serious. What isn't serious about them? The Crisis suits maybe but they're what, 10-12 years old now?
ImAGeek wrote: Also their whole front is that they're good - that's what they want you to think, and in their mind they are good. They don't look good or evil, they look like professional alien soldiers - exactly what they are. Not everything has to be painted black or have spikes to be evil.
Too much subtlety, my head hurts. Yes they dont need to be black but looking at least like something serious would help. Also it's 40k it's not Dune or high literature or sth, sometimes in your face is better ie in ridiculous paragon of grimdark there is only war games. It's like telling Lovecraft to cut on adjectives.
Also truth be told chaos/ mutated/ something Tau codex like DE for eldar is something Id love to see.
So you want 40k to be even more flat and one dimensional? Okay, that's your opinion. I'm all for a bit more complexity in the fluff, and the subtle nuances of the Tau Empire is one of the better bits of the background in my opinion, next to some of the Lovecraftian Necron stuff (IA12).
And they do look serious. What isn't serious about them? The Crisis suits maybe but they're what, 10-12 years old now?
Stories can be complex but as far as grimdark goes yes I prefer more in your face especialy in visual department. And no it doesnt mean skulls or spikes it means insanity, hopelessness, suffering, desolation, ruin, misery and painful death that is only the beginning of your troubles etc. Heh. Dark and grim to the point of being its own parody (because grimdark everything and grimdark to 11 is a great joke as well imo) but cool enough that you can enjoy it on face value the same time.
As for Tau, their faces dont look serious, like a race I would treat seriously as threat or sth. I dont know how to explan that to you. They have faces of space Ghandis and while there was nothing wrong with the man, he wouldnt exactly thrive in 40k universe. I can explain to myself that it's smoke and mirrors and insidiously grimdark but Id prefer just to see that just like on almost all other things in the setting. It doesnt mean they have to look like monsters or even as menacing as xcom greys but just loose that characterless sheepish look.
Blacksails wrote: You saying its irrelevant doesn't mean it is irrelevant. Being a chamber militant is in fact relevant and can be valid justification for being in an Inq book.
You saying “being a chamber militant is in fact relevant and can be valid justification for being in an Inq book.” does not make being a chamber militant relevant and a valid justification either. If you are unwilling to address my argument, the discussion is going to be very stale.
Blacksails wrote: The Sisters are a Chamber Militant of the Inquisition. As in, they exist partially within the Inquisition's organization and structure.
That is false. They were created outside of the Inquisition, and are merely often requisitioned by Inquisitors. The Inquisition do not provide them ressources, there are no Inquisitors affected to the Orders, there is really no actual link whatsoever.
Blacksails wrote: The Guard, contrary to that, do not exist within either organization's structure, and nor do the Sisters fall under the same chain of command that has direct authority over the Guard.
So, let us sum up:
- The Guard has a different chain of command than the Sisters
- The Inquisition barely have a chain of command. Mostly they have conflicts were the most influential Inquisitors win.
- The Inquisition can requisition both the Guard and the Sisters.
Oh yeah! Real difference! Totally the Sisters belong to the Inquisition and not the Guard.
Blacksails wrote: All I'm saying is that in the spirit of this thread and merging/cleaning up a few codices, Sisters don't make an unreasonable part of a better Inquisition book.
Only if you do not look at what Sisters are about. Since their inception to the latest digidex, they always have been about the Ecclesiarchy, and religion. They were loosely tied to the Inquisition, and in name only, during GW's Inquisition craze. But they were never linked in theme or spirit or even anything beside “get requisitioned often”. Just in name. So no, repeating GW's previous mistake, that has been recognized as a mistake and completely forsaken, is not a good idea. If you want to make a codex “forces of the Imperium other than Marines and IG”, you can also add Mechanicum to the mix, though. But really, just fold the marines and be done with it.
SGTPozy wrote: Isn't that a bit racist? "I don't like the look of you so you don't belong here"
That's basically what his entire argument boils down to. They don't look "mean" or "tough" or "serious" or "evil" to him. Therefore they suck and "don't fit" into the grimdark 40K setting. What utter nonsense.
Aliens never say anything about the greater good and are all about invading the Earth.
I guess you have either not finished xcom, or didn't listen to the dialogue. xcom aliens are not simply invading earth.
If they were, why do they not attack xcom, but instead land 1 ship at a time, slowly incrementally increasing the threat level of their squads? The 'invasion' of earth is just a game played by their ethereal cast, in an attempt to mould humanity into the best possible target for assimilation.
They preach "greater good" even though they basically murder and assimilate people.
How does this not fit the rest of 40k?
Criticise them all you like for their aesthetics, however their fluff is not as noblebright as some people make it out to be.
With Tau you get impression of menacing neither from vehicles/ suits nor their physique.
Their physique sure, but 20 feet tall flying battlesuits that shoot balls of energy and homing missiles are not menacing?
You saying “being a chamber militant is in fact relevant and can be valid justification for being in an Inq book.” does not make being a chamber militant relevant and a valid justification either. If you are unwilling to address my argument, the discussion is going to be very stale.
I have addressed your argument. I think its completely relevant and a fine justification. You don't. You're not more right by telling me its irrelevant. The fact is that are a chamber militant of the Inquisition, and I fail to see how that is in any irrelevant.
Stale indeed.
That is false. They were created outside of the Inquisition, and are merely often requisitioned by Inquisitors. The Inquisition do not provide them ressources, there are no Inquisitors affected to the Orders, there is really no actual link whatsoever.
I never said they were created for the inquisition, nor by the inquisition. I said they partially fall under the rather loose structure of the Inquisition as an expert resource for a particular Ordo.
There is a link; they are a chamber militant for the Ordo Hereticus. You can keep claiming that's not a link or not valid, but its there, and for me makes for a perfectly reasonable justification to be a part of an Inquisition book for 40k.
So, let us sum up:
- The Guard has a different chain of command than the Sisters
- The Inquisition barely have a chain of command. Mostly they have conflicts were the most influential Inquisitors win.
- The Inquisition can requisition both the Guard and the Sisters.
Oh yeah! Real difference! Totally the Sisters belong to the Inquisition and not the Guard.
Inquisition can requisition anything, so might as well argue that everything falls under the Inquisition.
I'll point out I'm not saying Sisters belong to the Inquisition, but in terms of having a streamlined Codex collection, Sisters would make sense in one of two ways; their own book, or as a part of an Inqusition book to represent an Ordo Hereticus force.
Only if you do not look at what Sisters are about. Since their inception to the latest digidex, they always have been about the Ecclesiarchy, and religion. They were loosely tied to the Inquisition, and in name only, during GW's Inquisition craze. But they were never linked in theme or spirit or even anything beside “get requisitioned often”. Just in name. So no, repeating GW's previous mistake, that has been recognized as a mistake and completely forsaken, is not a good idea. If you want to make a codex “forces of the Imperium other than Marines and IG”, you can also add Mechanicum to the mix, though. But really, just fold the marines and be done with it.
Yeah, a codex of 'Forces of the Imperium' could work, so could having a dozen Imperium books for every faction with guns, which would be a lot.
Let me put it another way. Let's say GW released a proper Inquisition book with actual options and content. Let's say I'm building an Ordo Hereticus force. I'll probably have an Inquisitor, some of Henchmen...and Sisters! Wouldn't it make sense to just have all the Chambers Militant of the Inquisition in a book designed to represent the Inquisition? The same way DW and GK would be available in the same book?
As far as a reasonable merging of books, this strikes me as logical and fluffy. The alternative is to just have Sisters in their own book, which I'm also fine with, but I can't in good faith call for merging of all marines and not want some sort of unified Inquisition forces book.
I've said my piece. Feel free to respond, but I don't think its going to be particularly productive.
Blacksails wrote: Inquisition can requisition anything, so might as well argue that everything falls under the Inquisition.
Yeah. Exactly my point. Why only include Sisters then? Either only organization that are very, very linked to the Inquisition and never operate outside of it (like Deathwatch), or all those that they can requisition, but why single out some army that does not work with the Inquisition especially and force-fit it in an Inquisition 'dex?
Blacksails wrote: Let's say GW released a proper Inquisition book with actual options and content. Let's say I'm building an Ordo Hereticus force. I'll probably have an Inquisitor, some of Henchmen...and Sisters!
Or Imperial Guards. Or requisitioned space marines.
quote=Blacksails 631334 7516341 5719842a2ca26f9922fe6de695a66636.jpg]The alternative is to just have Sisters in their own book, which I'm also fine with, but I can't in good faith call for merging of all marines and not want some sort of unified Inquisition forces book.
All marines have a LOT in common. Merging them would make sense. Sisters are not forces of the Inquisition, but forces of the Ecclesiarchy, and they have more in common with space marines than with the Inquisition…
So much tau hate, uhh, makes my head hurt from how biased it is.
I'm fairly sure it must be the people that can't be bothered to learn how to beat tau that are populating this thread.
Oh, and the guard, sisters and inquisition are separate things that can help each other because they all fight for the Emprah.
For me personally, the desire to remove the Tau is as cliche and dull as playing Space Marines.
As Peregrine said earlier, if you think Tau aren't dark enough, you really don't know the Tau.
The Tau are what the Imperium very much wishes it could be. Despite it's constant efforts, the Imperium has yet to match Tau when it comes to controlling it's people. Tau are able to do this because the Ethereals are far more brutal, and willing to do horrible things... 'for the greater good'. (Do you feel the darkness creeping in yet?) They just cover it up a lot better to avoid all the dissent... Yet another thing the Tau keep a tight reign upon while Imperial leaders fume jealously at what the Tau Ethereals have accomplished.
See, the Imperium doesn't realize that the extreme efficiency of the Tau didn't come about without some very sinister things being done by the Ethereals to their own people. Things that Imperial leaders haven't the balls to do. This is why the Imperium will remain a mess, while wondering how the Tau run such a tight empire.
Having read the Codex, Dataslate, and Farsight Enclaves, I testify that the Tau have some very disturbing things going on behind the curtain. A level of disturbing that few other armies have been able to match. Almost DE levels of disturbing. Just not overtly.
SGTPozy wrote: Isn't that a bit racist? "I don't like the look of you so you don't belong here"
That's basically what his entire argument boils down to. They don't look "mean" or "tough" or "serious" or "evil" to him. Therefore they suck and "don't fit" into the grimdark 40K setting. What utter nonsense.
So if you incorporated ponies or lets say something closer from other space fantasy like ewoks into 40k, it wouldnt matter that they stand out as long as GW provided adequate fluff? Or you can just throw any crap into 40k? Whats your point, because my is that they look like crap, on one picture like blue teethless orks or beefed up monkeyish grey aliens, on another some hippie skinny japan in space something and dont fit, yes. On what basis they fit visualy btw, if thats big robots with guns then I propose you play with transformers toys from now on because apparently saying something doesnt fit because it looks too wimpy/ toyish/ nice/ characterless for balls to the walls universe like 40k is utter nonsense. Or it's the insidious backstory, lets just get marvel loki into 40k all in spandex, also Gargamel he was grimdark as F really. Please.
SGTPozy wrote: Isn't that a bit racist? "I don't like the look of you so you don't belong here"
It's 40k, everyone's racist
Not true. The proper term is specist, not racist. Racism is decidedly dead. No humans care about the color of each others skin when there are nasty aliens trying to kill/eat/torture them.
Plumbumbarum wrote: So if you incorporated ponies or lets say something closer from other space fantasy like ewoks into 40k, it wouldnt matter that they stand out as long as GW provided adequate fluff?
I'm not the one trying to argue that the Tau look like ponies or ewoks, here, you are. So you can cut that out here and now.
Whats your point
That your personal opinion on the Tau's appropriateness for the 40K setting boils down to what you think their faces look like, and that this reasoning is utter nonsense. Was I not clear?
On what basis they fit visualy
No, on what basis don't they fit visually? You know, apart from that you think they look like ponies or ewoks? I've yet to hear a reason other than that, therefore I've yet to hear a valid reason.
if thats big robots with guns then I propose you play with transformers toys from now on because apparently saying something doesnt fit because it looks too wimpy/ toyish/ nice/ characterless for balls to the walls universe like 40k is utter nonsense. Or it's the insidious backstory, lets just get marvel loki into 40k all in spandex, also Gargamel he was grimdark as F really. Please.
SGTPozy wrote: Isn't that a bit racist? "I don't like the look of you so you don't belong here"
It's 40k, everyone's racist
Not true. The proper term is specist, not racist. Racism is decidedly dead. No humans care about the color of each others skin when there are nasty aliens trying to kill/eat/torture them.
Touche lmao. Still, if you ain't human, you're gak.
Kangodo wrote: Maybe you should learn that this is nothing but an opinion, one we don't really care about?
Good, you hate the looks of Tau.
We don't, deal with it.
What?
First I was not posting to you
Second some people asked me questions about that opinion so I have to assume some care/ are interested. Who are the 'we' you talk about?
Third Ive been posting nothing but clarifications or answering to direct questions after I made my claims and would drop it already. The guy didnt just state he disagrees though which doesnt need answering, he doesnt get it but picks on words to call it utter nonsense and generaly acts like a typical baseless boor. Doesnt that warrant an answer?
Plumbumbarum wrote: So if you incorporated ponies or lets say something closer from other space fantasy like ewoks into 40k, it wouldnt matter that they stand out as long as GW provided adequate fluff?
I'm not the one trying to argue that the Tau look like ponies or ewoks, here, you are. So you can cut that out here and now.
NEITHER AM I
Whats your point
That your personal opinion on the Tau's appropriateness for the 40K setting boils down to what you think their faces look like, and that this reasoning is utter nonsense. Was I not clear?
NO
On what basis they fit visualy
No, on what basis don't they fit visually? You know, apart from that you think they look like ponies or ewoks? I've yet to hear a reason other than that, therefore I've yet to hear a valid reason.
THERE IS NOTHING GRIMDARK ABOUT THEIR AESTHETICS
if thats big robots with guns then I propose you play with transformers toys from now on because apparently saying something doesnt fit because it looks too wimpy/ toyish/ nice/ characterless for balls to the walls universe like 40k is utter nonsense. Or it's the insidious backstory, lets just get marvel loki into 40k all in spandex, also Gargamel he was grimdark as F really. Please.
... more drivel that barely makes any sense.
YEAH
Sorry but your post is not worth the work and time to properly edit it on my ancient phone so I just answered closer to your style. And the 'face' issue, if you have humanoid race theres hardly anything really distinguishing it apart from the head shape and face attributes. Predator is just a naked guy with dredlocks but looks awesome imo thanks to the mask or his face without mask. Give him Tau face and derp everybody laughs when he shows it to Arnie. Other visual features of Tau are their anime esque armour and suits also weapons and that's basicaly it plus Japanesse motives, theyre ok now but not really 40kish either. Anyway theres not much more to talk other than their faces when evaluating their visuals as alien race because other than that theyre just tiny guys.
Anfauglir, all that Plumbum is doing is taking your argument and going to the extreme to prove it doesn't hold up. All he is saying is that GW just veered from the theme of the setting, and that is perfectly reasonable to say. While your argument is saying that Ponies WOULD be okay so long as they had a writer explain it away... which is true... but it doesn't mean it is a GOOD thing though.
I don't really see how GW "veered from the theme of the setting" when Eldar have a lot of the same design concepts as the Tau and have been in the game since the beginning. Or are people just forgetting that there's more to the setting than the Imperium and the Imperium with extra spikes?
Before I get started I just wanted to point out something obvious; people are getting way too hung up on the phrase "For the Greater Good". Even from day one, when Tau were supposedly "nicer" and before GW had taken steps to "darken" them up, the phrase always meant for the greater good of the Tau. The Tau always believed that the galaxy was their birthright and they don't really want to share it...if you want to live in their galaxy you do it under their banner, and you bow to the will of the ethereals just like everyone else. Or you can just die.
The only reason they don't kill you first is because it's just more practical not to. In the end life is just another resource to be used and exploited, and it's an awful thing to waste when your growing Empire could always use more workers and soldiers to help fortify and defend your rapidly expanding borders. If you don't cooperate though, then they really aren't that fussed about killing you, just means they have to do a little more work when they take over.
Hey you cant negate all my hard work on that post written at 6am with the ancient phone when sleep deprived, hangovered and additionaly dizzy for various reasons just because I want to see you crying over the fluff section in 8th edition BRB . What kind of a community are you people who get offended or ignore posts.
Sometimes even I realize now and then that some conversations just aren't going to go anywhere. It's painfully obvious what you were doing, and you flat out admitted it was what you were doing just now.
On the topic of trolling, Tau being written out of the game isn't really going to stop me from putting them on the table, either. If it really comes to that then I'm either making my own codex or I'm just going to lazily run "counts as" using the Eldar codex. So everyone whining about how their aesthetic is "out of place" and bitching because they don't like looking at the models, you still won't get what you want even if GW does listen to you. And anyone that refuses to play with me is TFG and probably a WAAC douche that's afraid of losing. Because that's how the 40k community works, play the way I want to or you're doing it wrong (and you're probably also morally inept).
Plumbumbarum wrote: Im the same btw about my armies though more grimdark because I react with random aggression, hate and negativity.
So do I. I'm taking great pains to try and be nice right now, but I'm half-tempted to just say feth it and let fly since it seems the mods couldn't care less about this trainwreck of a thread.
Plumbumbarum wrote: I dont even want Tau out anymore, I did at some point where crisis suits minis were their main suits but now new broadsides being awesome and crisis suit commander show that GW will fix the machines and thats enough for me to not be bothered that much. Still hate how their faces look, cant help it and believe me I tried. Other than that they can stay, you cant make 40k into coherent whole all at once anyway.
Personally I think the crisis suits need to mimic the design of the XV9's a lot more. We really needed new crisis suits more than the fething riptide, or the ugly flyer. If you want to remove gak from the game then do me a favor and get rid of the sun shark, first.
Neither do Eldar. Not in the least. Yet they're almost universally accepted (the rules not so much) whereas Tau are almost universally reviled.
Eldar dont fit as well as ponytail elves but wraith constructs and some of the infantry make up for it a bit. With Tau you get impression of menacing neither from vehicles/ suits nor their physique. Also eldar art is on average darker I think.
I disagree. First of all, the Fire caste is built just like an average human soldier, so their physique ought to be every bit as "menacing" as any other race with a comparable stat line. They're not significantly taller or smaller as far as I know. Second, if that were really the case then it's questionable whether or not the Imperial Guard really "fit in" because an average human isn't very "menacing" either when compared to some of the other horrors of the galaxy...and even the Imperium's own genetic monsters, for that matter.
Third, exactly how many vehicles in 40k look "menacing", anyway? I've yet to see a single Marine vehicle that I would describe as such. Or IG. Or Eldar. Or Necrons. Orks are just goofy and stupid so they don't really count in any case. Dark Eldar are probably the only faction in the game that have anything I would consider even the least bit threatening as far as appearance goes, and maybe the new Knight when you put that one faceplate on it. Also, I happen to think the hammerhead is pretty damn intimidating. The shape of the vehicle makes it look a lot like it's namesake (sharks are scary, aren't they?), and you have that big-ass gun on top, too. Compared to a predator tank, a Leman Russ, or an Eldar falcon, it's definitely the one that would put the most fear in me...if I hadn't been using them for years and knew how gakky and useless they were in-game, anyway.
As for the battlesuits I think it's been well-established that the crisis suit kit is in dire need of an update. The broadside sure became a lot more intimidating, it wouldn't be hard to do the same for crisis suits one would think.
Plumbumbarum wrote: But yes eldar barely fit and their fluff is just elves in space. Another reason why I dont care about Tau being removed, they'd have to go together with eldar.
Well at least someone fething agrees with me for once. Sick and tired of people attacking Tau but defending the Eldar aesthetic for things completely unrelated, like their "tragic" fluff or the fact that they've been in since Rogue Trader days (which has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they still look out of place). I don't care how long they've been in the game, they're still elves in space and they don't look "grimdark". We've apparently established several times that all that matters is how the army looks on the table, and like Tau it just isn't "gritty" enough for 40k.
You can't argue for the removal of Tau without throwing Eldar out with them. And that's probably not going to happen.
Plumbumbarum wrote: They wouldnt stand out on good guys flag ship in star wars.
They wouldn't stand out among the bad guys, either. If anything they'd probably fit in more.
I disagree but if that was so, it would only be because bad guys in star wars look like wimps as well heh.
So what I'm getting from this is that you're not a Star Wars fan. Fine, I know who not to ask for a game of X-Wing then.
As far as the whole "in-your-face" vs. "subtlety" background argument, going to chalk that one up to a difference of opinion. I think there's room for both in 40k, but whatever. Everything is black and white apparently, it has to all be one thing or the other.
Plumbumbarum wrote: As for Tau, their faces dont look serious, like a race I would treat seriously as threat or sth. I dont know how to explan that to you. They have faces of space Ghandis and while there was nothing wrong with the man, he wouldnt exactly thrive in 40k universe. I can explain to myself that it's smoke and mirrors and insidiously grimdark but Id prefer just to see that just like on almost all other things in the setting. It doesnt mean they have to look like monsters or even as menacing as xcom greys but just loose that characterless sheepish look.
Man, Space Ghandi looks pissed if you ask me.
Again, age seems to be one of the main contributing factors to this. The fire warrior kit is just as old as the crisis suits, and not counting the ethereals (which essentially are Space Ghandi, all calm and collected all the time), you had exactly one helmet-less Tau head with a pretty blank expression before the new pathfinders came out.
There's no reason why Tau faces can't look more menacing , GW just isn't giving us much to work with.
As for the Sisters debate that seems to be happening for some reason in this Tau hate thread, I personally don't give a gak if Sisters get rolled into a new "Inquisition" codex, so long as it's 1) a physical product I can buy, and 2) still entirely possible to run an army of nothing but Sisters. I don't want to see them be reduced to a single "Battle Sisters" box set as a troops choice in the theoretical Inquisition codex.
The Tau hate is really useless at this point. The army has been in the game for five editions now. Is this really still a thing? I know some people do not like the aesthetic, but some people do. Seriously.. get over it and grow up.
The last thing that GW wants to do is to drop a core army in their flagship game. It would be cutting off their nose to spite their face when they are already bleeding. They might as well go whole hog and just chop off Chaos Space Marines or Orks.
Then again, with their savaging of Lizardmen I would honestly be careful what you wish for. I still have my fingers crossed that Lizarmen will not be squatted in 9th Fantasy, but so far it is not looking good.
Nightwolf829 wrote: The Tau hate is really useless at this point. The army has been in the game for five editions now. Is this really still a thing? I know some people do not like the aesthetic, but some people do. Seriously.. get over it and grow up.
The last thing that GW wants to do is to drop a core army in their flagship game. It would be cutting off their nose to spite their face when they are already bleeding. They might as well go whole hog and just chop off Chaos Space Marines or Orks.
Then again, with their savaging of Lizardmen I would honestly be careful what you wish for. I still have my fingers crossed that Lizarmen will not be squatted in 9th Fantasy, but so far it is not looking good.
I'm assuming that the Tau haters are just immature nerd-ragers who can't figure out how to defeat a Riptide.
Sidstyler wrote: Even from day one, when Tau were supposedly "nicer" and before GW had taken steps to "darken" them up, the phrase always meant for the greater good of the Tau. The Tau always believed that the galaxy was their birthright and they don't really want to share it...if you want to live in their galaxy you do it under their banner, and you bow to the will of the ethereals just like everyone else. Or you can just die.
Personally I wouldn't remove any of the factions - I'd look to consolidate some of them - especially the Marines
The lengths that GW are going to make some "special" individual chapters (Dark Angels and Blood Angels in particular ) different in game terms as well as fluff is getting tiresome....... and many of the resulting concepts and models are not at all to my taste - especially the flyers!
I'd rather see the Slann and Lizardmen remerge in 40k than yet another SM Codex.
Mr Morden wrote: The lengths that GW are going to make some "special" individual chapters (Dark Angels and Blood Angels in particular ) different in game terms as well as fluff is getting tiresome....... and many of the resulting concepts and models are not at all to my taste - especially the flyers!
I say! How very rude.
Now, if anyone wants me, I'll be in my flying clown shoe.
I went with Imperial Knights because Inquisition wasn't an option. Imperial Knights should be relegated to a Data Slate and not their own Codex.
While I love the idea of having lots of them stomping around the table, it really does hurt the armies that don't have access to a semi decent super heavy to help deal with them.
As for Inquisition I'd like to see them, grey knights, and SoB rolled into one codex and given a death watch option as well.
The units exist in the Guard codex, the fluff is abhorrently bad, all it has is a decent warlord table and worse orders than the regular guard codex.
We would literally lose nothing by not having it, such a wasted opportunity.
I'd also merge all the loyalist MEQ books save Grey Knights. Even Space Wolves, who are fluff-wise non Codex Complaint like the Black Templars are still functionally, in game, normal Space Marines +1 with better scouts, no organic sergeants and their "scouts" use power armour and BP+CCW combo. Give each army a subsection with its unique units/characters and rules (give BT their Vows back). It would have been easier prior to the most recent "MOAR special snowflake marines" releases, but still easily doable. It'd actually result in one codex with decent value.
I'd put Daemons and CSM together, and have the player choose one of three variants of Chaos; Veterans of the Long War; super-powerful traitor legionnaires, like Chaos Grey Knights; all the toys, special rules, small unit sizes, Renegades of the Dark Millenium; current CSMs, but with more loyalist "modern" equipment, and Servants of Warp; few, but mostly psychic/summoning units with heavy daemon presence. Keep Daemons powerful, but have a way to stop them beyond just "shoot them lots and hope they fail enough invulns before they charge"
As for Knights, if the codex was the list Forgeworld put out, it'd be fine. The current two unit codex is an abomination.
As someone who despises Tau, I really want to make a distinction here.
The Tau fluff and rules fit in the game. It's a dystopian society who have their flaws and 'evil' side, it's just based on different ethical issues.
What I dislike Tau for are their anime fan aesthetic. The whole Japanese futuristic look just doesn't suit the Gothic theme of 40K. They look like they belong in Infinity.
If the Tau looked more grim and less like an appeal to manga/anime/whatever-it's-called fans then my severe dislike of them would disappear.
I don't think the Tau should vanish, I think the styling of their models is just wrong and should have been different from the outset.
As for those saying 'get used to the aesthetic and grow up', you're assuming it's immature to dislike a certain aesthetic. You could argue that those who like it and support it are Gundam obsessed and need to grow it. It's a ridiculously ignorant comment to make. It's not a case of maturity but rather comparison of aesthetic to setting. It's like putting Hello Kitty pictures in a museum of Fine Art Many people would object
Wulfmar wrote: As someone who despises Tau, I really want to make a distinction here.
The Tau fluff and rules fit in the game. It's a dystopian society who have their flaws and 'evil' side, it's just based on different ethical issues.
What I dislike Tau for are their anime fan aesthetic. The whole Japanese futuristic look just doesn't suit the Gothic theme of 40K. They look like they belong in Infinity.
If the Tau looked more grim and less like an appeal to manga/anime/whatever-it's-called fans then my severe dislike of them would disappear.
I don't think the Tau should vanish, I think the styling of their models is just wrong and should have been different from the outset.
Like I've said though, they're an alien species. They're going to look different. They fit as well as Eldar do, who also look all clean and not-grim. If everything looked the same, the game would be dull. It's already approaching it with every other army being Space Marines. What's wrong with them looking different?
Fair enough if you don't like how they look, but saying they don't fit doesn't make sense to me. It's a big Galaxy. Different species will look different.
SGTPozy wrote: Isn't that a bit racist? "I don't like the look of you so you don't belong here"
It's 40k, everyone's racist
Not true. The proper term is specist, not racist. Racism is decidedly dead. No humans care about the color of each others skin when there are nasty aliens trying to kill/eat/torture them.
To badly quote Pratchett : "Black and White live together in harmony and gang up on Green"
Archonate wrote: For me personally, the desire to remove the Tau is as cliche and dull as playing Space Marines.
As Peregrine said earlier, if you think Tau aren't dark enough, you really don't know the Tau. The Tau are what the Imperium very much wishes it could be. Despite it's constant efforts, the Imperium has yet to match Tau when it comes to controlling it's people. Tau are able to do this because the Ethereals are far more brutal, and willing to do horrible things... 'for the greater good'. (Do you feel the darkness creeping in yet?) They just cover it up a lot better to avoid all the dissent... Yet another thing the Tau keep a tight reign upon while Imperial leaders fume jealously at what the Tau Ethereals have accomplished.
See, the Imperium doesn't realize that the extreme efficiency of the Tau didn't come about without some very sinister things being done by the Ethereals to their own people. Things that Imperial leaders haven't the balls to do. This is why the Imperium will remain a mess, while wondering how the Tau run such a tight empire.
Having read the Codex, Dataslate, and Farsight Enclaves, I testify that the Tau have some very disturbing things going on behind the curtain. A level of disturbing that few other armies have been able to match. Almost DE levels of disturbing. Just not overtly.
So basically, they are IngSoc. Brutal
Anyway, I voted knights. An army that only has 2 types of models and no army list is no army at all.
The Eldar look original in concept and I've not seen the styling elsewhere
The Tau look like a Saturday morning TV inspired race.
What you've added doesn't adress my point at all...
You're tetchy aren't you?
My comment wasn't specifically to you I had modified my post for anyone who was thinking about, or currently, quoting me. (They could then re-read and edit their posts accordingly
To directly answer your question. Yes, an alien race should look alien. They happen to look like they're Japanese, and unless Japan is alien, then it's just not doing it for me
The Eldar look original in concept and I've not seen the styling elsewhere
The Tau look like a Saturday morning TV inspired race.
What you've added doesn't adress my point at all...
You're tetchy aren't you?
]
My comment wasn't specifically to you I had modified my post for anyone who was thinking or currently quoting me.
To directly answer your question. Yes, an alien race should look alien. They happen to look like they're Japanese, and unless Japan is alien, then it's just not doing it for me
They don't look Japanese. They look inspired by anime slightly yeah. You do know Japan don't really have giant robots right? Sorry to disappoint you.
As said, Eldar are basically Elves, they're no more original or alien than Tau. They even look human. At least the Tau look alien (like the Greys pretty much. That's how I've always seen them).
Wulfmar wrote: They have then been heavily modified for a 40K setting.
What are these heavy modifications you speak off? To me Eldar look and feel almost 100% like high elves in space (FYI I don’t consider this a problem.)
Wulfmar wrote: Tau are a lazy, direct import from current Japanese cartoons.
Meh, other than the Riptide I don’t see what else Tau has that links them to anime.
Amusingly, if you google 'manga battlesuit' 'anime battlesuit' and so on quite a few Tau (including some disturbing fan art) pops up in between other images
Wulfmar wrote: They have then been heavily modified for a 40K setting.
What are these heavy modifications you speak off? To me Eldar look and feel almost 100% like high elves in space (FYI I don’t consider this a problem.)
Wulfmar wrote: Tau are a lazy, direct import from current Japanese cartoons.
Meh, other than the Riptide I don’t see what else Tau has that links them to anime.
Agreed. I dont even like Anime, but I love Tau, so that's different enough for me. When I look at the Riptide even, I don't think 'Anime' I think 'Tau'. Maybe they started as a bit of an Anime ripoff but they have their own identity now, helped by their excellent background (some of the best thought out, most cohesive background in all of 40k).
I can see the Tau in the first one but Gundam have never looked like Tau to me at all, or vice versa.
Also, even if they are Anime inspired, so? Everything's inspired by something else. Orks=Orcs. Eldar=Elves. Space Marines=Countless places. Tyranids=Geigers Alien. Imperial Guard=WWI/WWII/Vietnam etc.
Nocturus wrote: As for Inquisition I'd like to see them, grey knights, and SoB rolled into one codex and given a death watch option as well.
And again! People really need to associate Sisters with the Inquisition. They are an army by themselves, and their primary purpose is to fight for the Ecclesiarchy. They are requisitioned by the Inquisition, but so is the Guard!
Wulfmar wrote: Tau are a lazy, direct import from current Japanese cartoons.
Wulfmar wrote: Amusingly, if you google 'manga battlesuit' 'anime battlesuit' and so on quite a few Tau (including some disturbing fan art) pops up in between other images
Even if we go with Riptides being inspired by mecha-anime (which it is,) does that make the rest of the Tau anime clones? No it does not. Tau has their own distinct theme and feel to them.
Towering robot-suits only amounts to 1-2% of the Tau arsenal. You would be indefinitely better off comparing Tau to starship troopers (the novel,) than any anime featuring giant mechs.
Wulfmar wrote: Tau are a lazy, direct import from current Japanese cartoons.
This calls for picture comparisons!
This post is a place holder while I compose a response. Please be patient, technically I'm at work and will be updating this piecemeal
Spoiler:
Tau Helmets and communication stalks on helmets / general aesthetic of all battle suits.
Tau Pathfinder (helmet predominantly)
Broadside with missile pods and other shenanigans
Still not seeing it. Tau are overall more blocky for example. There's elements of similarity, yeah. But like I said, everything in 40k has elements of similarity with something that came before it.
Still not seeing it. Tau are overall more blocky for example. There's elements of similarity, yeah. But like I said, everything in 40k has elements of similarity with something that came before it.
Seriously? You're going to be impatient and not even let me finish what I'm doing?
Stuff it, I can't be bothered continuing if you're just going to continue arguing before I've finished getting the images. I even stated clearly it was in progress as I am at work. If someone is going to the effort for you, at least give them a chance.
Still not seeing it. Tau are overall more blocky for example. There's elements of similarity, yeah. But like I said, everything in 40k has elements of similarity with something that came before it.
Seriously? You're going to be impatient and not even let me finish what I'm doing?
Stuff it, I can't be bothered continuing if you're just going to continue arguing before I've finished getting the images. I even stated clearly it was in progress as I am at work. If someone is going to the effort for you, at least give them a chance.
Well, I'm sorry, I didn't realise you weren't done. You said wait, I looked again, and there were photos.
Both Eldar and Tau like having those extra fins sticking out like Japanese anime robots, can't expect GW to leave that an untapped market.
Even saw some of the mechs in battletech started getting fins added (latest iteration of the "Zeus"), so consider this a standard "me-too".
I figure once models are released it is Pandora's box: there is no un-doing it, people who get an entire army phased-out will get a wee tad angry: just look at Squats.
I agree that combining back together into codex's would be more efficient and may save us from say 3-4 different versions of the same model costing / behaving different like the Rhino.
Considering the latest GW tactic is to be able to release as many saleable items as possible both models and various supporting documents this thread would be an unlikely pipedream, fun exercise all the same though.
SGTPozy wrote: Why is it bad that they are inspired by Anime?
That's my point too. Everything in 40k is inspired by something.
Your "Still not seeing it." seemed to say "I disagree" is all...
If you indeed agree that they are inspired by anime that's fine, it just was not clear... And i don't think it's a bad thing either?
By 'still not seeing it' I meant; I'm not seeing that it's a direct cut/paste copy job. I can see the inspiration, definitely, but next to each other I think say a Gundam and a Tau suit look suitably different.
SGTPozy wrote: Why is it bad that they are inspired by Anime?
That's my point too. Everything in 40k is inspired by something.
Your "Still not seeing it." seemed to say "I disagree" is all...
If you indeed agree that they are inspired by anime that's fine, it just was not clear... And i don't think it's a bad thing either?
By 'still not seeing it' I meant; I'm not seeing that it's a direct cut/paste copy job. I can see the inspiration, definitely, but next to each other I think say a Gundam and a Tau suit look suitably different.
Oh definitely! I also meant in the general background of things too, the Castes, how they live, "Greater Good", etc, also reminds me a lot of Edo-era Japan.
The Tau have "Honour", great sages, etc... They are very much the Samurai - Mecha of 40k.
In a very far-related sense, probably, but the connection can be made. And, IMO, that's definitely a good thing, not a bad one lol
Yes I always considered Eldar just as anime inspired as Tau, just by different styled anime. Looking at wraith constructs body and evangelions it's quite obvious to me though I admit that not being even slightest bit interested in the army, I never checked what was ripped off from where, timeline etc. Said wraith constructs look ripped off from Alien looking at the head and things on the back, wraithlord is a mechanical alien on legs with a sword which makes it awesome in my book btw. My main gripe with them apart from standard fantasyish fluff are standard fantasyish ponytails and generaly elvy things. GW should make them more cybernetic but not in mechanical style but kind of unknown always moving materials on faces, some super intricate crap or glass impants I dont know, you could go bonkers with their design but no Elrond in spaaace and we are sad. At least make thek randomly die from the sadness and fight the suicide rates as much as galaxy with entire armies commiting suicide, I can write a special rule for that with a random table GW. Grimdark heh.
SGTPozy wrote: Why is it bad that they are inspired by Anime?
That's my point too. Everything in 40k is inspired by something.
Your "Still not seeing it." seemed to say "I disagree" is all...
If you indeed agree that they are inspired by anime that's fine, it just was not clear... And i don't think it's a bad thing either?
By 'still not seeing it' I meant; I'm not seeing that it's a direct cut/paste copy job. I can see the inspiration, definitely, but next to each other I think say a Gundam and a Tau suit look suitably different.
Oh definitely! I also meant in the general background of things too, the Castes, how they live, "Greater Good", etc, also reminds me a lot of Edo-era Japan.
The Tau have "Honour", great sages, etc... They are very much the Samurai - Mecha of 40k.
In a very far-related sense, probably, but the connection can be made. And, IMO, that's definitely a good thing, not a bad one lol
Yeah I can see how the background is evocative of Japan too, but I agree that it's a good thing, and my point was just that it's not a direct copypaste ripoff of Anime, and also that it doesn't 'not fit' into 40k because of the Anime influence.
I love the background for the Tau, incidentally. Some of the best background stuff from GW I think.
@Sidstyler yes I was trolling in a way that I dont really want people's armies removed, Im too nice deep down for that despite working hard everyday to change myself. I still have conscience pangs over bashing Mat Ward lol or cant even cheat on wife despite numerous opporunities lately. Anyway I thrive in threads like this tbh you can attack people s tastes etc it's not something you can do every day.
Grimdark vehicle, well land raiders and generally everything on WWI chasis, I instantly see millions dead in trenches some with tank track marks on mangled bodies, gas smoke all the great things. Chaos predator or landraider is epitome of grimdark, tanks from hell ftw. Then you have Tau vehicle which are sleek and rounded and presented on some bright sunny picture (well thats a hyperbole but the art initialy seemed cleaner/ brighter than the rest). You can say the deadly potential of the vehicle makes it fitting enough but I disagree, there are many military examples of deadly things looking laughable. Tau fishes are actualy ok designs but would fit better somewhere else, even SM vehicles if you dont count stormraven have some grimdark connotation I cant tell you what it is though, predator looks agressive I guess merging wwI/II esque chasis chasis and modern turret and lasers etc. As I said I think designers themselves mentioned in their notes that they want Tau to be in contrast with the rest of the universe so you could say the argument that Tau dont fit somehow is pretty strong if you re not into contrast in 40k.
Yes Im not exactly a fan of star wars, Id still play xwing (and probably will very soon) just not buy/ collect. Ships are actualy a highlight of star wars universe.
SGTPozy wrote: Why is it bad that they are inspired by Anime?
That's my point too. Everything in 40k is inspired by something.
Your "Still not seeing it." seemed to say "I disagree" is all...
If you indeed agree that they are inspired by anime that's fine, it just was not clear... And i don't think it's a bad thing either?
By 'still not seeing it' I meant; I'm not seeing that it's a direct cut/paste copy job. I can see the inspiration, definitely, but next to each other I think say a Gundam and a Tau suit look suitably different.
How about a fire warrior next to a samurai? The armor is very similar.
SGTPozy wrote: Why is it bad that they are inspired by Anime?
That's my point too. Everything in 40k is inspired by something.
Your "Still not seeing it." seemed to say "I disagree" is all...
If you indeed agree that they are inspired by anime that's fine, it just was not clear... And i don't think it's a bad thing either?
By 'still not seeing it' I meant; I'm not seeing that it's a direct cut/paste copy job. I can see the inspiration, definitely, but next to each other I think say a Gundam and a Tau suit look suitably different.
How about a fire warrior next to a samurai? The armor is very similar.
Similar, certainly, but it's a huge leap to go 'they look slightly like a samurai so they look a lot like Gundam'...
SGTPozy wrote: Why is it bad that they are inspired by Anime?
That's my point too. Everything in 40k is inspired by something.
Your "Still not seeing it." seemed to say "I disagree" is all...
If you indeed agree that they are inspired by anime that's fine, it just was not clear... And i don't think it's a bad thing either?
By 'still not seeing it' I meant; I'm not seeing that it's a direct cut/paste copy job. I can see the inspiration, definitely, but next to each other I think say a Gundam and a Tau suit look suitably different.
How about a fire warrior next to a samurai? The armor is very similar.
Similar, certainly, but it's a huge leap to go 'they look slightly like a samurai so they look a lot like Gundam'...
Well it's not a case of A because B. Each of the Tau models have an inspiration from somewhere, as per the pictures provided by Wulfmar show.
I've always though the Wraithknight looked more like Evangelion,
But comparing Riptide and Gundam(which i've only glanced at, never watched) in terms of blocky-ness etc is not much of a stretch :p
If anything, that is pretty much the main reason why i would like Tau, but a lot of other things make me go "meh"....
SGTPozy wrote: Why is it bad that they are inspired by Anime?
That's my point too. Everything in 40k is inspired by something.
Your "Still not seeing it." seemed to say "I disagree" is all...
If you indeed agree that they are inspired by anime that's fine, it just was not clear... And i don't think it's a bad thing either?
By 'still not seeing it' I meant; I'm not seeing that it's a direct cut/paste copy job. I can see the inspiration, definitely, but next to each other I think say a Gundam and a Tau suit look suitably different.
How about a fire warrior next to a samurai? The armor is very similar.
Similar, certainly, but it's a huge leap to go 'they look slightly like a samurai so they look a lot like Gundam'...
Well it's not a case of A because B. Each of the Tau models have an inspiration from somewhere, as per the pictures provided by Wulfmar show.
I've always though the Wraithknight looked more like Evangelion,
But comparing Riptide and Gundam(which i've only glanced at, never watched) in terms of blocky-ness etc is not much of a stretch :p
If anything, that is pretty much the main reason why i would like Tau, but a lot of other things make me go "meh"....
But Gundam to me seem a lot sleeker, more human formed, rather than blocky like the Riptide. Like on a Gundam the armour plates are shaped like muscles on the legs, they have a proper face, etc. while the Tau, they have distinctly mechanical legs, a very robot face, etc. it's not too much of a stretch I guess, but to me they look fairly distinctly different.
SGTPozy wrote: Why is it bad that they are inspired by Anime?
That's my point too. Everything in 40k is inspired by something.
Your "Still not seeing it." seemed to say "I disagree" is all...
If you indeed agree that they are inspired by anime that's fine, it just was not clear... And i don't think it's a bad thing either?
By 'still not seeing it' I meant; I'm not seeing that it's a direct cut/paste copy job. I can see the inspiration, definitely, but next to each other I think say a Gundam and a Tau suit look suitably different.
How about a fire warrior next to a samurai? The armor is very similar.
Similar, certainly, but it's a huge leap to go 'they look slightly like a samurai so they look a lot like Gundam'...
Well it's not a case of A because B. Each of the Tau models have an inspiration from somewhere, as per the pictures provided by Wulfmar show.
I've always though the Wraithknight looked more like Evangelion,
But comparing Riptide and Gundam(which i've only glanced at, never watched) in terms of blocky-ness etc is not much of a stretch :p
If anything, that is pretty much the main reason why i would like Tau, but a lot of other things make me go "meh"....
But Gundam to me seem a lot sleeker, more human formed, rather than blocky like the Riptide. Like on a Gundam the armour plates are shaped like muscles on the legs, they have a proper face, etc. while the Tau, they have distinctly mechanical legs, a very robot face, etc. it's not too much of a stretch I guess, but to me they look fairly distinctly different.
Gundam was a very obscure entity in the UK before the release of Wing on Cartoon network, which was in 2001. The initial Tau designs were done in 1999/2000. Assuming there was no hardcore anime fanbase at GW at the time, the most likely inspiration for the designers was Robotech, which was broadcast accross Europe on Super Channel. Blocky designs were a thing of 1980s mecha shows. Also helps that FASA/mechwarrior had copied designs from the show so they were known in the wargame community at the time.
I am still not seeing how Tau being inspired by anime is an issue. It is a multi-billion dollar industry after all. On the other hand design wise the Tau do stick out, but I think that is a good thing. They fill a clean cut technologically advanced niche that attempts to close the gap with hard sci-fi. They are are the technological renaissance against which the blackness of the galaxy can be measured.
As for originality. I mean.. if we want to judge based on unoriginal factions there are better choices to pick from.
My personal problem with the Tau is the following,
1) Too small of an empire to really deserve a place with all the other species that have codices. Everyone else is spread across the galaxy, the Tau are stuck in an isolated backwater.
2) The entire species survives by plot armor alone. They should have been utterly destroyed by the Tyranids by now, its only been some stupid McGuffin that has kept them around. Let alone the fact that that same McGuffin has been used before on Nids and it didn't work, but it somehow worked for the Tau.
1) Too small of an empire to really deserve a place with all the other species that have codices. Everyone else is spread across the galaxy, the Tau are stuck in an isolated backwater.
2) The entire species survives by plot armor alone. They should have been utterly destroyed by the Tyranids by now, its only been some stupid McGuffin that has kept them around. Let alone the fact that that same McGuffin has been used before on Nids and it didn't work, but it somehow worked for the Tau.
Yeah, the second one especially, is bad writing. I still love the Tau fluff but I mean more how they came about, the depth of their society, the little underlying evil bits, but the whole Nids thing is annoying. And they are small but they're expanding, and I'm glad they're in the game.
Make no mistake, I like the Tau concept and how they fit into 40k. Its just been awkwardly executed.
I think it would have been better to have them be somewhere in the galactic north east and make them a little bigger of a threat. And have the Nids be tearing them a new one too.
People who complain about tau being out of place in the game with alien space fungus ork Margaret Thatcher, space elves that control bone, and space rambo need to rethink their priorities.
Bite your tongue! We're either the Detroit Lions or the Yankees of 
