I've seen this argument played out in one of the other posts. Some people have said that you can GoI/SoF which would trigger RoT ability to run & shoot.
GoI / SoF allows you to deploy via Deep Striking.
RoT triggers if a unit is is arriving via Deep Strike Reserves.
rites of teleportation requires you to arrive from deep strike reserves.
deep strike reserves is a unit placed in reserves and arriving by deepstrike as per the rules as written in the rulebook.
gate of infinity allows an unit on the board to be removed and arrive on the board by deepstrike.
one requires a specific form of arriving from reserves.
the other is a method of placing models onto the table.
deep striking and deep strike reserves are not the same thing. One is a method of placement, the other is a method of placement when arriving from reserves.
Are you deep striking but not in reserves? You are arriving by deepstrike. Are you deep striking and in reserves? You are arriving from deep strike reserves.
Without being in reserves when arriving from deep strike you cannot be in deep strike reserves, as it specifically states :
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
Please notice the requirement of being placed in reserves for deep strike reserves.
skies of fury also is not reserves based so would not trigger rites of teleportation because the squad inside the transport is not in reserves, it is embarked and out of reserves. In the case of skies of fury it does not even use the word "arrive" in regards to how it deepstrikes. The models are placed using the rules for deepstrike, but they are in no form arriving from deep strike reserves as they were not in reserves.
as such normally gate of infinity/skies of fury could not trigger Rites of Teleportation by the rules with one exception.
if you mishap and the unit ends up in ongoing reserves, when it can be placed next by deepstrike it will be arriving from reserves by deepstrike, or arriving from deep strike reserves.
You could purposefully try to mishap your unit for the 50% chance to go into ongoing reserves, but probably not worth it in most cases.
Per the BRB, Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves are the same thing. For both Gate of Infinity and Skies of Fury, the Deep Striking unit is arriving via Deep Strike (aka Deep Strike Reserves). In both cases, the unit is not on the table at the moment Deep Strike is occurring (Gate has the unit removed before DS, Skies has the unit embarked). Rites is triggered by a NSF unit arriving via Deep Strike (aka Deep Strike reserves). As has been argued before, Drop Pods trigger Rites, Gate triggers Rites, Skies triggers Rites, Jump Pack Assault would trigger Rites, a mole machine would trigger Rites.
GW failed to distinguish between methods of Deep Strike in 7th, and made both Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves the exact same thing. Per RAW, simply using the DS rules to arrive on the table will trigger Rites if the arriving unit is from an NSF.
Maybe in 8th, GW will be less clumsy with their rules, and differentiate between methods of arrival. However, in 7th, they did not.
Gate of infinity uses all the rules for deep strike, ALL. Whether you think it makes sense or doesn't, you can only arrive by reserves. When you are removed from the table with GoI, think of reserves as a temporary time pocket or the Warp.
Nyghoma wrote: Gate of infinity uses all the rules for deep strike, ALL. Whether you think it makes sense or doesn't, you can only arrive by reserves. When you are removed from the table with GoI, think of reserves as a temporary time pocket or the Warp.
So did you roll for the arrival of th unit, as per the reserve rules referred to by the deep strike rules?
Nyghoma wrote: Gate of infinity uses all the rules for deep strike, ALL. Whether you think it makes sense or doesn't, you can only arrive by reserves. When you are removed from the table with GoI, think of reserves as a temporary time pocket or the Warp.
So did you roll for the arrival of th unit, as per the reserve rules referred to by the deep strike rules?
Can you use Interceptor on a unit that just used GoI?
Nyghoma wrote: Gate of infinity uses all the rules for deep strike, ALL. Whether you think it makes sense or doesn't, you can only arrive by reserves. When you are removed from the table with GoI, think of reserves as a temporary time pocket or the Warp.
So did you roll for the arrival of th unit, as per the reserve rules referred to by the deep strike rules?
Can you use Interceptor on a unit that just used GoI?
Nyghoma wrote: Gate of infinity uses all the rules for deep strike, ALL. Whether you think it makes sense or doesn't, you can only arrive by reserves. When you are removed from the table with GoI, think of reserves as a temporary time pocket or the Warp.
So did you roll for the arrival of th unit, as per the reserve rules referred to by the deep strike rules?
Can you use Interceptor on a unit that just used GoI?
No because its in the psychic phase, not the movement phase.
Nyghoma wrote: Gate of infinity uses all the rules for deep strike, ALL. Whether you think it makes sense or doesn't, you can only arrive by reserves. When you are removed from the table with GoI, think of reserves as a temporary time pocket or the Warp.
So did you roll for the arrival of th unit, as per the reserve rules referred to by the deep strike rules?
Can you use Interceptor on a unit that just used GoI?
No because its in the psychic phase, not the movement phase.
Nyghoma wrote: Gate of infinity uses all the rules for deep strike, ALL. Whether you think it makes sense or doesn't, you can only arrive by reserves. When you are removed from the table with GoI, think of reserves as a temporary time pocket or the Warp.
So did you roll for the arrival of th unit, as per the reserve rules referred to by the deep strike rules?
Can you use Interceptor on a unit that just used GoI?
No because its in the psychic phase, not the movement phase.
Good point.
But as for reserves, the jury isn't out yet.
If you use all the rules for deep strike when using gate of infinity:
Every model must have the Deep Strike rule.
The unit must start the game in Reserves (and declared to be arriving by Deep Strike)
You must roll for the arrival of the unit as specified in the rules for Reserves.
They must arrive in the Movement phase.
If you use all the rules for deep strike when using gate of infinity:
Every model must have the Deep Strike rule.
The unit must start the game in Reserves (and declared to be arriving by Deep Strike)
You must roll for the arrival of the unit as specified in the rules for Reserves.
They must arrive in the Movement phase.
Not quite.
When using Gate of Infinity, all models in the unit are conferred the Deep Strike special rule per the wording of the power granting permission for the unit to arrive via Deep Strike. If permission was not granted, you would be correct. Another common example are Drop Pods granting DS to embarked units.
Units are not required to start in Reserves to arrive from Deep Strike Reserves. Arriving via Deep Strike is the same as arriving from Deep Strike Reserves per the BRB. As such, any unit arriving via Deep Strike has in fact arrived from Deep Strike Reserves. However, Reserves and Deep Strike Resrves are not the same thing per the BRB. A unit can be Reserved yet never use Deep Strike to arrive (I.e., Stormravens), while a unit can arrive via Deep Strike without ever having started in Reserves (I.e., Gate of Infinity). The hang up most people seem to have is GW's inability to differentiate similar terms. They use the word "reserves" to mean two similar yet different things in the game. "Reserves" is the place units are kept when not deployed pre-game, and confers a set of rules to determine when and how those units arrive on the table. "Deep Strike Reserses" is where units are at the start of the Deep Strike process of arriving on the table. Similar but different.
A unit arriving from Reserves must make a Reserve roll to arrive during the game. A unit not in Reserve does not. Deep Strike Reserves is not Reserves, despite using the word "Reserves". A unit in Reseves that is Deep Striking is in fact both in "Reserves" and starting in "Deep Strike Reserves". A unit using Gate of Infinity is not in "Reserves", and starts on the table, is then removed from the table and arrives "immediately" via the Deep Strike rules (I.e., Deep Strike Reserves, place one model as a marker, roll to scatter, place remaining models in BtB forming complete rings around the first model, check for mishap). No Rerseve roll is required because the unit was never in "Reserves".
A unit arriving from Reserves arrives at the beginning of the movement phase. A unit arriving by Deep Strike via Gate of Infinity is arriving immediately per the rules dictated by Gate of Infinity, which starts in the Psychic phase, is ended in the Psychic phase, and fully occurs during the activation of the power as written.
A basic understanding of the game only goes so far. Reading comprehension and the ability to work out word problems goes further, especially when trying to determine how rules in 40k interact. There is no conflict between Gate of Infinity, Deep Strike, and Reserves.
Rites of Teleportation does two things for the qualifying unit: allows a Reserved unit to roll for Reserves on turn 1, and a unit arriving via Deep Strike to use Battle Focus. GW's error is that they did not specify how the unit arrives beyond from Reserves for the roll benefit and via Deep Strike for the Battle Focus benefit. Rites of Teleportation as written is not in conflict with either Reserves, Deep Strike, or Gate of Infinity.
To reiterate, a NSF unit that uses Gate to arrive via Deep Strike will trigger Battle Focus per Rites, because all restrictions have been met.
The exact same argument allows NSF Purifiers in an Allied Fast choice Drop Pod to roll for Reserves on turn 1, as well as gaining Battle Focus for the turn it arrives, due to how Rites interacts with Reseves, Deep Strike, and the Combined Units rules.
Bookmark this, print it off, and show it to your TO and/or opponent if an argument occurs.
I agree w/run&shoot after gate, for the previously mentioned reasons... Gate explicitly uses the rules for deep strike, with the exception of arriving immediately.
Just like when blaktoof argues whether or not a dreadnought arriving via deep strike in a drop pod is itself arriving by DS or not, he wants to make up an imaginary location for the unit that is gating to move to when removed from the board.
arrivng by deep strike is not the same as arriving from deepstrike reserves, unless one of the GK players can provide a quote stating it is there is no real conversation here.
stating "all restrictions have been met" is pretty incorrect when there is the restriction that you were not in reserves, and nothing states arriving by deep strike is the same as arriving from deep strike reserves, nor does anything in GoI itself mention counting as coming from reserves or arriving from deep strike reserves.
what was your reserves roll again? oh wait you didnt make one...
blaktoof wrote: arrivng by deep strike is not the same as arriving from deepstrike reserves, unless one of the GK players can provide a quote stating it is there is no real conversation here.
Reread the Deep Strike USR. Its right there in black and white.
reread the deep strike USR its right there in black and white.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
siege2142 wrote: I agree w/run&shoot after gate, for the previously mentioned reasons... Gate explicitly uses the rules for deep strike, with the exception of arriving immediately.
Just like when blaktoof argues whether or not a dreadnought arriving via deep strike in a drop pod is itself arriving by DS or not, he wants to make up an imaginary location for the unit that is gating to move to when removed from the board.
agrees without quoting any rules support.
states pointless comment from another thread in their own imagination that does not even really exist.
Unless the target is Zooming or Swooping, remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike.
This shows that a unit using Gate of Infinity is arriving by Deep Strike, and uses all the rules pertaining to it. The word "Immediately" eliminates the need to roll for reserves.
Deep Strike, page 162
When placing a unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike(sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
This is the only place in the rules where Deep Strike Reserve is defined. And it is defined as any unit that is arriving by Deep Strike.
Therefore, a unit that uses Gate of Infinity is arriving from Deep Strike reserves. Thus triggering Teleport Homers(if they all have TDA or Interceptor packs) and the Nemesis Strike Force detachment special rule.
it is defined as any unit arriving from reserves by deepstrike.
its that reserves word that references rules that people keep leaving out.
GoI doesn't state the unit counts as being in reserves, so it isn't coming from deep strike reserves, which is probably why the RAW states "arriving by deep strikes" and not "arriving immediately from deep strike reserves"
so by the RAW you just quoted its not coming from deep strike reserves.
blaktoof wrote: it is defined as any unit arriving from reserves by deepstrike.
its that reserves word that references rules that people keep leaving out.
GoI doesn't state the unit counts as being in reserves, so it isn't coming from deep strike reserves, which is probably why the RAW states "arriving by deep strikes" and not "arriving immediately from deep strike reserves"
so by the RAW you just quoted its not coming from deep strike reserves.
It actually is arriving from reserves because the power says "arrives immediately using the rules for Deep Strike"
The Deep Strike rules require you to be arriving from reserves. Ergo, the power makes you count as arriving from reserves.
This is the only interpretation which allows the rules to function. Your interpretation breaks the rules and prevents the game from continuing because there is no way to resolve the power. Thus its a flat out wrong interpretation.
Unless the target is Zooming or Swooping, remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike.
This shows that a unit using Gate of Infinity is arriving by Deep Strike, and uses all the rules pertaining to it. The word "Immediately" eliminates the need to roll for reserves.
Deep Strike, page 162
When placing a unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike(sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
This is the only place in the rules where Deep Strike Reserve is defined. And it is defined as any unit that is arriving by Deep Strike.
Therefore, a unit that uses Gate of Infinity is arriving from Deep Strike reserves. Thus triggering Teleport Homers(if they all have TDA or Interceptor packs) and the Nemesis Strike Force detachment special rule.
Incorrect, because the models from GoI are not put in reserves. Whether Deep Strike Reserves, Ongoing Reserves or Reserves.... They are removed from the board. What happens to embarked passengers? They are removed from the board.
Are you arguing that Passengers are in Reserves?
"immediately arrives (...) using the rules for Deep Strike" means you use the rules under the subtitle: "Arriving by Deep Strike"
Which does not mention any Reserves past "Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves" Which, as you say, is ignored.
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jeffersonian000 wrote: Units are not required to start in Reserves to arrive from Deep Strike Reserves. Arriving via Deep Strike is the same as arriving from Deep Strike Reserves per the BRB. As such, any unit arriving via Deep Strike has in fact arrived from Deep Strike Reserves. However, Reserves and Deep Strike Resrves are not the same thing per the BRB. A unit can be Reserved yet never use Deep Strike to arrive (I.e., Stormravens), while a unit can arrive via Deep Strike without ever having started in Reserves (I.e., Gate of Infinity). The hang up most people seem to have is GW's inability to differentiate similar terms. They use the word "reserves" to mean two similar yet different things in the game. "Reserves" is the place units are kept when not deployed pre-game, and confers a set of rules to determine when and how those units arrive on the table. "Deep Strike Reserses" is where units are at the start of the Deep Strike process of arriving on the table. Similar but different.
SJ
This is also an incorrect view, and, as you say, "the hang up most people seem to have is GW's inability to differentiate similar terms". They use 3 terms:"Deep Strike Reserves"; "Deep Striking"; and arriving "by Deep Strike", which might seem the same, but are actually different things, and can be proven as such if required.
Arriving from "Deep Strike Reserves" does not fully equate to arriving via/"by Deep Strike" in the Rulebook, no. Specific example: Drop Pods. Their rules clearly state that the Pod and the Unit embarked, are in "Deep Strike Reserves". The Unit embarked, however, has no way of following the Deep Strike process, and thus no way of arriving "via Deep Strike"...
As for "Deep Strike Reserves" being different from "Reserves", the Deep Strike rules contradicts this fact: "When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)" A Deep Striking Unit is actually placed in "standard" Reserves, but is labelled as "will be arriving by Deep Strike". Technically "Deep Strike Reserves" sometimes doesn't even exist, despite Codices now relating to it as if it were a defined game term....
Unless the target is Zooming or Swooping, remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike.
Removed from the board (same as "in a transport").
I agree with "immediately" removes the need for a Roll.
They do, because the rules for Deep Strike say that any unit Arriving by Deep Strike(proven to be the case with GoI) is Arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.
This is the only place in the rules where Deep Strike Reserve is defined, and it is defined as Arriving by Deep Strike. Which is what you are doing when you use Gate of Infinity.
Grey Templar wrote: They do, because the rules for Deep Strike say that any unit Arriving by Deep Strike(proven to be the case with GoI) is Arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.
This is the only place in the rules where Deep Strike Reserve is defined, and it is defined as Arriving by Deep Strike. Which is what you are doing when you use Gate of Infinity.
Ok, at the Danger of quoting too much i will show you clearly why that is an assumption (incorrect) that you are making:
Spoiler:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike. Arriving by Deep Strike Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows: • First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter. • Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit. • Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain. In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may (etc). (Copied from BRB-Digital edition)
In white is what Gate of infinity calls out, and what your Unit must do.
It simply cannot follow the rules highlighted in orange, for many reasons: Does the Unit "must have the Deep Strike special rule"? Do "They always begin the game in Reserve"? etc...
Arriving by Deep Strike (white section) does not mean you go into reserves. Unless the rules said they did.
Gate of Infinity says you use the Deep Strike rules. That means all of them. Including the orange bit. Does that mean you can't use GoI if the unit can't normally deep strike. Maybe, but thats not part of this discussion.
You are refusing to use all the DS rules, therefore you are breaking the game.
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.
• Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may (etc).
(Copied from BRB-Digital edition)
In white is what Gate of infinity calls out, and what your Unit must do.
You agreed that you have to roll "as specified in the rules for Reserves" (except GoI immediately arrives).
And then you deploy "them". Who? "Them" must refer to the unit that you rolled to arrive from Reserves.
You place a model from "the unit". Which unit? The one that just arrives from (Deep Strike) Reserves.
Please explain how immediately arriving from Reserves, as you've quoted, means the unit is not arriving from Reserves.
Grey Templar wrote: Gate of Infinity says you use the Deep Strike rules. That means all of them. Including the orange bit. Does that mean you can't use GoI if the unit can't normally deep strike. Maybe, but thats not part of this discussion.
You are refusing to use all the DS rules, therefore you are breaking the game.
1) You can't decide to use ALL the Deep Strike rules, but then "ignore" "must have the Deep Strike special rule" or "They always begin the game in Reserve" out of convenience. Using all the Deep Strike rules makes it impossible by RaW.
2)When are you told to use ALL the Deep Strike rules anyway?
"arrives (...) using the rules for Deep Strike"
That is the RaW. The arrival of the Unit follows the rules for Deep Strike. That means you can safely skip the part about how Units with Deep Strike are Deployed (Orange section) and follow the rules described by an appropriately named section:
"Arriving by Deep Strike"
I wonder if the reference to that title in Gate of Infinity was intentional?
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.
• Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may (etc).
(Copied from BRB-Digital edition)
In white is what Gate of infinity calls out, and what your Unit must do.
You agreed that you have to roll "as specified in the rules for Reserves" (except GoI immediately arrives).
And then you deploy "them". Who? "Them" must refer to the unit that you rolled to arrive from Reserves.
You place a model from "the unit". Which unit? The one that just arrives from (Deep Strike) Reserves.
Please explain how immediately arriving from Reserves, as you've quoted, means the unit is not arriving from Reserves.
I'm not sure why you're getting your Grammar wrong here, it's very simple:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
Them refers to the subject: "Deep Striking units", just as "the Unit" refers to that same subject.
So subject: "Deep Striking units"
A) roll for their arrival per "reserves"
B) Deploy as follows.
Grey Templar has shown why we can ignore "A": the fact that they are arriving "immediately".
How you somehow insert your own meaning that this must be done "from Reserves" is puzzling? Is there specific wording leading you to think this?
Sure, the unit is "Deep Striking", it needs to roll "as specified in the rules for reserves", but nothing in there suggests it IS coming from reserves. Apart from the Deep Strike rules themselves upon deployment. Does GoI revert to a Deployment phase?
You aren't ignoring the reserve roll, you are following the rules as written to immediately arrive by Deep Strike.
You aren't ignoring the need for all models in the unit to have the Deep Strike USR, you are following the rules as written which tell you to Deep Strike the unit, granting the Deep Strike USR via implied permission.
The unit does not go into Reserves (the place a unit may begin the game in), yet may go into On-Going Reserves (the place a unit is held when not on the table, yet directed to use the Reserves rule to re-enter play) due to a Mishap. The models of the unit do leave the table, which does imply On-Going Reserves, followed by immediately going through the Deep Strike process, which per the BRB is called both "Deep Strike" and "Deep Strike Reserves".
It's easy to see the confusion, because GW has used the word "Reserves" in three different ways to imply the exact same thing, the "Limbo" a unit is in when not on the table yet still legally in play. GW should have used different terms so as to differentiate between these states or places a unit can be held while legally in play yet not physically on the table. The only other time a model or unit is both physically off the table yet still in play is when Embarked in a transport or building. Yes, GW should have provided a term other than "Reserve" to denote when a unit is being moved via Deep Strike; unfortunately, they not only did not, they outright defined "Deep Strike" and "Deep Strike Reserve" to mean the exact same thing. Due to this confusion, many people conflate Deep Strike Reserves with being in actual Reserves, rather than literally being "embarked" on the "Deep Strike" process, which is the implied meaning behind the actual rules as written. I'm not talking about RAI, I'm talking about the rules as actually written. GW is using a word correctly to inform players of a process, players are using the same word as a game term for a specifically defined place/time in the game. GW is being too general, players are being too specific. GW really really needs a competent Editor.
By following the Deep Strike rules, yet with specific permission to modify those rules, Gate of Infinity allows a unit without the Deep Strike USR to:
Leave the table without being removed from play and Immediately return to the table via the process known as Deep Strike.
Thus the Deep Strike USR is conferred without being directly granted and the reserve roll for arrival is bypassed. The unit is implied to be in On-Going Reserves between removal from the table and the immediate return, because a Mishap can prevent the unit from arriving, where one of the possible outcomes is that it will remain in On-Going Reserves, which implies that it was in On-Going Reserves to begin with. This is perhaps the main reason why Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves are one in the same. However, at no point in the process is it specifically defined that a unit removed from the table yet return via Deep Strike has gone into Reserves (a deployment option), or On-Going Reserves (a re-deployment option). What we are left with is the implied steps that occur if the rules are followed as written.
As written, a unit that Gates is in play, is removed from the table while remaining in play, is returned to the table immediately so as not to disrupt play, has done so via the Deep Strike process which includes the Mishap game mechanic, and due to using the Deep Strike process has also qualified as having actually arrived via Deep Strike from Deep Strike Reserves without having been Reserved yet perhaps having gone briefly into On-Going Reserves, which can trigger other benefits such as a Rites of Teleportation if the unit in question is a qualifying unit.
The problem is you are still being selective for part of the rules. Gate of Infinity has no wording to cover "must have the Deep Strike special rule" or "They always begin the game in Reserve" parts of Deep Strike.
Sure, you can make a logical leap and assign them Deep Strike because they are using it, but it is still an assumption with no rules support (GoI doesn't say: "model gains Deep Strike for a turn and...").
The only part i can agree with, due to lack of concise RaW, is this:
jeffersonian000 wrote: The unit is implied to be in On-Going Reserves between removal from the table and the immediate return, because a Mishap can prevent the unit from arriving, where one of the possible outcomes is that it will remain in On-Going Reserves, which implies that it was in On-Going Reserves to begin with.
SJ
Although Skies of Fury has specific wording to "destroy the Unit" in case of a Mishap, GoI does not, implying it is possible for the Unit to enter ongoing Reserves.
This means two things, the first being that this is the first RaW (logical interpretation) i can agree clearly tells you to put the Unit in Ongoing Reserves. The second is that it does indeed force the Unit to enter On-going Reserves, but it could be doing so for the first time.
Concluding that entering Reserves due to Mishap means it was there to begin with is a logical fallacy.
This is the correct interpretation with RaW support for GoI:
Leave the table without being removed from play and Immediately return to the table via the process known as Deep Strike.
Where does this say you are going into Reserves(of any kind)? "the "Limbo" a unit is in when not on the table yet still legally in play" only happens in a handful of other occasions: Deep Striking -type moves (Skyleap, Portal of exile, etc) and Transports.
Are Passengers in ongoing Reserves? i really like that interpretation.
At a closer look at GoI, i would even say the rules say:
Leave the table without being removed from play and Immediately return to the table via the process known as arriving by Deep Strike.
Which means you follow these rules:
"Arriving by Deep Strike"
The fact that the Unit using GoIdoes not have the Deep Strike Special rule means the entire rule does not have to apply.
Black Talos, please try and actually reading my posts before replying to them. All of your concerns were covered in multiple posts, including the one you are replying to. The continued lack of any apparent reading comprehension on your part makes this thread tiring and non-productive. Continuously asking for me and others to restate points I've and other have already stated numerous times falls under the category of trolling, not debating.
If you continue to not read what you are quoting, I will simply place you on ignore.
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.
• Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may (etc).
(Copied from BRB-Digital edition)
In white is what Gate of infinity calls out, and what your Unit must do.
You agreed that you have to roll "as specified in the rules for Reserves" (except GoI immediately arrives).
And then you deploy "them". Who? "Them" must refer to the unit that you rolled to arrive from Reserves.
You place a model from "the unit". Which unit? The one that just arrives from (Deep Strike) Reserves.
Please explain how immediately arriving from Reserves, as you've quoted, means the unit is not arriving from Reserves.
I'm not sure why you're getting your Grammar wrong here, it's very simple:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units asspecified in the rules for Reservesand then deploy them as follows:"
Them refers to the subject: "Deep Striking units", just as "the Unit" refers to that same subject.
So subject: "Deep Striking units"
A) roll for their arrival per "reserves"
B) Deploy as follows.
Grey Templar has shown why we can ignore "A": the fact that they are arriving "immediately".
How you somehow insert your own meaning that this must be done "from Reserves" is puzzling? Is there specific wording leading you to think this?
Sure, the unit is "Deep Striking", it needs to roll "as specified in the rules for reserves", but nothing in there suggests it IS coming from reserves. Apart from the Deep Strike rules themselves upon deployment. Does GoI revert to a Deployment phase?
Nothing suggests it? Really?
So you use all the rules for Reserves, but nothing suggests it's actually coming from Reserves. Apart from, you know, the Deep Strike rules.
I've inserted nothing. The actual rules - as you've quoted them - refer to deploying the unit, and applying the rules for arriving from Reserves. You're deliberately ignoring that fact.
My grammar was just fine - the Deep Striking unit must roll to arrive using the rules for Reserves. GoI allows you to skip that roll, but the rest of the rules for Reserves still stand.
either GoI uses all the rules for deep strike which means models using Gate of Infinity must use all the rules for deep strike:
all the models being gated must have deep strike USR.
All the models being gated must have begun the game in reserves.
When the unit was in reserves at the beginning of the game you must have told your opponent that would be arriving by deep strike.
The only rule we can RAI say we get to ignore is the roll to arrive from reserves, because we are told they arrive immediately. Assuming the outcome of the roll cannot matter because if the roll is failed they cannot arrive immediately and we are told they they arrive immediately.
However there is no permission in the rules to ignore the rest of the rules for Deep strike.
the alternative is that Gate of Infinity uses the rules for "arriving by deep strike" ignoring that the unit did not come from reserves, because it was not in reserves and there is no roll to arrive from reserves nor are we told the unit "automatically arrives from reserves, or passes its reserves roll, or does not have to make a reserves roll"
tbh which rules to follow for DS(all, some) are not stated. anyone claiming they are coming from reserveres has best a RAI or HYWPI argument, just as anyone claiming they are not coming from reserves has a RAI/HYWPI argument.
the only thing that is certain is if you are claiming they are coming from reserves, and are using all the rules for deepstrike then they must abide by the above points. Which means any unit that did not begin the game in deep strike reserves, and does not have the deep strike rule on their unit entry, cannot use gate. Which is what anyone who claims Gate uses all the rules for deep strike is stating, and is the least logical of the RAI ways to play it.
blaktoof wrote: either GoI uses all the rules for deep strike which means models using Gate of Infinity must use all the rules for deep strike:
all the models being gated must have deep strike USR.
All the models being gated must have begun the game in reserves.
When the unit was in reserves at the beginning of the game you must have told your opponent that would be arriving by deep strike.
Incorrect. We have permission to use GoI (given by it not being Denied), meaning we have permission to ignore those three points.
the only thing that is certain is if you are claiming they are coming from reserves, and are using all the rules for deepstrike then they must abide by the above points. Which means any unit that did not begin the game in deep strike reserves, and does not have the deep strike rule on their unit entry, cannot use gate. Which is what anyone who claims Gate uses all the rules for deep strike is stating, and is the least logical of the RAI ways to play it.
Incorrect. DS specifies that all models in the unit must have the rule. GoI allows a model without Deep Strike to use the DS rules. GoI is more specific and therefore "wins".
Entirely logical, and most importantly, rules based argument. Can you come up with one that counters what I've said?
You have permission to use the power, that does not mean the power always has an affect. Stating such is incorrect. There are many psychic powers that can select targets they have no effect on, e.g. enfeeble on any vehicle. Permission to cast, but the rules prevent it from actually having any effect on specific targets.
GOI does not state it allows models without DS to use DS. It states the models must use the rules for DS. Thos are the rules for DS.
therefore you are incorrect, and as pointed out previously are making a RAI argument based on HYWPI.
blaktoof wrote: You have permission to use the power, that does not mean the power has any affect. Stating such is incorrect. There are many psychic powers that can select targets they have no effect on, e.g. enfeeble on any vehicle. Permission to cast, but the rules prevent it from actually having any effect on specific targets.
GoI doesn't select a target - it targets the Psyker. There's a marked difference, despite your assurance its the same as enfeeble.
GoI has one requirement - that the unit not be Zooming or Swooping.
Your (incorrect) interpretation would mean that a unit would be removed (and in limbo since you assert the unit does not go into Reserves) and never be placed on the board. This has no basis in logic or rules.
I am not making a RAI or HIWPI argument. Please stop asserting that I am - it's rude to put words in my mouth.
making the mistake of assuming permission to use a psychic power means you have permission to resolve a psychic power on any/all targets is not the basis for a rules discussion.
stating things I never said as if they were stated is not the basis for supporting your HYWPI argument.
it is as silly as claiming that because GoI states they arrive immediately that they can ignore mishap results that do not have them arrive- because then they are not arriving immediately, you are in fact have no rules basis or logic for any of your HYWPI arguments in this discussion.
In essence you are stating:
Spoiler:
they follow all the rules for DS so they must go to reserves, but they arrive immediately even though it says they arrive using the rules for deep strike, not they arrive from deep strike reserves immediately.
Even though they follow the rules for DS they ignore some of those rules without it being stated so in the rule for GoI because no reason stated.
I want them to follow the rules for going to reserves, but ignore all the other parts about reserves and DS even though no rules give them permission to do so, nor imply they do so because you are wrong and I am logical.
if you look at your points they make absolutely no sense, and in fact conflict with each other, its just a flip flop of the same point in a single discussion which takes away all the credibility from any such point you would try to make.
blaktoof wrote: making the mistake of assuming permission to use a psychic power means you have permission to resolve a psychic power on any/all targets is not the basis for a rules discussion.
Good thing I'm not doing that then, eh?
stating things I never said as if they were stated is not the basis for supporting your HYWPI argument.
What did you never state? Elaborate so I can explain, please.
If you meant when I said, "Your (incorrect) interpretation would mean that a unit would be removed (and in limbo since you assert the unit does not go into Reserves) and never be placed on the board. This has no basis in logic or rules. " then let me elaborate:
You agree that the power can be manifested. You do not agree that the unit goes into Reserves. You do agree that the rules for Deep Strike are used.
Are those three sentences correct? I'd hate to put words in your mouth.
it is as silly as claiming that because GoI states they arrive immediately that they can ignore mishap results that do not have them arrive- because then they are not arriving immediately, you are in fact have no rules basis or logic for any of your HYWPI arguments in this discussion.
That would be a silly claim and easily disproven. I'm not making HIWPI arguments.
In essence you are stating:
Nope, I'm not. Mocking me isn't appreciated.
if you look at your points they make absolutely no sense, and in fact conflict with each other, its just a flip flop of the same point in a single discussion which takes away all the credibility from any such point you would try to make.
If that's the case then surely instead of resorting to mockery and yelling "HYWPI!!!" surely you can come up with a rules based opposition to my points?
I mean - I'm attempting to engage in an honest debate. It doesn't seem like you are.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Black Talos, please try and actually reading my posts before replying to them. All of your concerns were covered in multiple posts, including the one you are replying to. The continued lack of any apparent reading comprehension on your part makes this thread tiring and non-productive. Continuously asking for me and others to restate points I've and other have already stated numerous times falls under the category of trolling, not debating.
If you continue to not read what you are quoting, I will simply place you on ignore.
SJ
I have read your points, and you did not cover my concerns. I am not asking you to re-state points, i am asking you to provide support (preferably RaW) for those points, which you have failed to do.
Your main points, selected: 1) a unit that Gates is in play, is removed from the table while remaining in play, is returned to the table immediately so as not to disrupt play. 2) The unit is implied to be in On-Going Reserves between removal from the table and the immediate return 3) a Mishap can prevent the unit from arriving, where one of the possible outcomes is that it will remain in On-Going Reserves.
1) Is correct. It works just like passengers from a Vehicle 2) Is a made-up assumption on your part, which lack rules support. 3) Is also correct (as i pointed out in my previous post) You have rules support that the Unit enters On-Going Reserves when it mishaps. How does that, in any way, prove 2) ?
You also keep dodging an important question: If you are following the Deep Strike rules in their entirety, how do you abide by "They always begin the game in Reserve"? Or even "must have the Deep Strike special rule" ?
you are following the rules as written which tell you to Deep Strike the unit, granting the Deep Strike USR via implied permission.
The above is not a valid answer, in case you think it would be, as A) it does not have rules support, or please point out the specific permission in GoI? B) the rules specifically tell you the Unit "arrives (..) using the rules for Deep Strike".
Not that the Unit has the Deep Strike USR, nor that it follows ALL the rules for Deep Strike, or not even that it is "Deep Striking".... It simply tells you that the nominated Unit arrives, following a certain method. It references this method, which you can find under: "Arriving by Deep Strike"
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows: • First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter. • Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit. • Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain. In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may (etc). (Copied from BRB-Digital edition)
In white is what Gate of infinity calls out, and what your Unit must do.
You agreed that you have to roll "as specified in the rules for Reserves" (except GoI immediately arrives). And then you deploy "them". Who? "Them" must refer to the unit that you rolled to arrive from Reserves. You place a model from "the unit". Which unit? The one that just arrives from (Deep Strike) Reserves.
Please explain how immediately arriving from Reserves, as you've quoted, means the unit is not arriving from Reserves.
I'm not sure why you're getting your Grammar wrong here, it's very simple:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units asspecified in the rules for Reservesand then deploy them as follows:"
Them refers to the subject: "Deep Striking units", just as "the Unit" refers to that same subject. So subject: "Deep Striking units" A) roll for their arrival per "reserves" B) Deploy as follows.
Grey Templar has shown why we can ignore "A": the fact that they are arriving "immediately".
How you somehow insert your own meaning that this must be done "from Reserves" is puzzling? Is there specific wording leading you to think this?
Sure, the unit is "Deep Striking", it needs to roll "as specified in the rules for reserves", but nothing in there suggests it IS coming from reserves. Apart from the Deep Strike rules themselves upon deployment. Does GoI revert to a Deployment phase?
Nothing suggests it? Really? So you use all the rules for Reserves, but nothing suggests it's actually coming from Reserves. Apart from, you know, the Deep Strike rules. I've inserted nothing. The actual rules - as you've quoted them - refer to deploying the unit, and applying the rules for arriving from Reserves. You're deliberately ignoring that fact. My grammar was just fine - the Deep Striking unit must roll to arrive using the rules for Reserves. GoI allows you to skip that roll, but the rest of the rules for Reserves still stand.
No, you must roll to arrive, because this is specified in the rules for reserves.
Not: You must roll, so that you may arrive as specified in the rules for Reserves.
Two very different phrases. What does arriving "as specified in the rules for Reserves" even entail? "Moving On From Reserve" paragraph? why would DS Units arrive following those rules? The first sentence above is the only correct one: You are rolling to arrive (by Deep Strike), in the way "as specified in the rules for Reserves": Arriving from Reserve At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each... etc.
Or also, explain to me what you mean by: "the rest of the rules for Reserves still stand."? what are these?
BlackTalos wrote: Two very different phrases. What does arriving "as specified in the rules for Reserves" even entail? "Moving On From Reserve" paragraph? why would DS Units arrive following those rules?
DS conflicts with "Moving on from Reserve" and therefore replaces the parts it conflicts with. It doesn't conflict with every Reserve rule.
Or also, explain to me what you mean by: "the rest of the rules for Reserves still stand."? what are these?
Well, for starters, this thread involves one.
If you must roll to arrive as specified in the rules for Reserves (which you've agreed applies, but GoI overrides), how can you "arrive" if you were never in Reserves?
How can the rule possibly apply if the unit is never in Reserves? You've agreed/asserted it applies.
blaktoof wrote: making the mistake of assuming permission to use a psychic power means you have permission to resolve a psychic power on any/all targets is not the basis for a rules discussion.
Good thing I'm not doing that then, eh?
stating things I never said as if they were stated is not the basis for supporting your HYWPI argument.
What did you never state? Elaborate so I can explain, please.
If you meant when I said, "Your (incorrect) interpretation would mean that a unit would be removed (and in limbo since you assert the unit does not go into Reserves) and never be placed on the board. This has no basis in logic or rules. " then let me elaborate:
You agree that the power can be manifested. You do not agree that the unit goes into Reserves. You do agree that the rules for Deep Strike are used.
Are those three sentences correct? I'd hate to put words in your mouth.
it is as silly as claiming that because GoI states they arrive immediately that they can ignore mishap results that do not have them arrive- because then they are not arriving immediately, you are in fact have no rules basis or logic for any of your HYWPI arguments in this discussion.
That would be a silly claim and easily disproven. I'm not making HIWPI arguments.
In essence you are stating:
Nope, I'm not. Mocking me isn't appreciated.
if you look at your points they make absolutely no sense, and in fact conflict with each other, its just a flip flop of the same point in a single discussion which takes away all the credibility from any such point you would try to make.
If that's the case then surely instead of resorting to mockery and yelling "HYWPI!!!" surely you can come up with a rules based opposition to my points?
I mean - I'm attempting to engage in an honest debate. It doesn't seem like you are.
rereading your previous statement and this one you have still failed to actually show any rules support for your statements.
you believe the unit follows all the rules for Deep strike, except that it can ignore the roll for reserves and arrive immediately. You are correct that it states board.
It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike.
but you assume arriving immediately means it went into reserves and comes back out what is RAI and HYWPI argument. An equally Valid argument which makes more sense is that it never goes into reserves, and it arrives back onto the table. Given that it does not "arrive from deep strike reserves" which is a rules statement used for things such as the rule in question in this thread, rites of teleporation, but instead simply arrives using the rules for deep strike. Nothing states it uses the rules for reserves. You then go on to state it uses the rules for reserves, in regards to going into reserves, not rolling, and immediately arriving back on the table (despite the rules not actually stating this). You further then go on to state that it uses this because it uses the rules for deep strike, however you claim it does not use the rules for deep strike because the unit does not have to have deep strike nor begin the game in reserves even those are part of the rules for deep strike.
as such your arguement is very flip floppy, without any rules support other than a RAI statement on what immediately could mean- the result of which you wish to take only part of the rules from DS regarding reserves and not the rest, without any rules support for doing either.
by the RAW nothing in GOI states the unit goes into reserves, nor does it state they arrive from deep strike reserves, or arrive from reserves by deep strike. You are injecting rules for reserves in GoI that do not exist based on part of the rules for DS, then ignoring the rest without any actual explanation of why. If questioned on it you simply claim people are putting words in your mouth and not supporting their points with any rules, even while they are supporting their point with rules, and you still have not actually supported or explained with rules how you are applying some of the rules for DS but not the others within the constraints of GoI.
btw here is an example of rules that include DS and reserves...something GoI does not do:
When the power is resolved, the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike, within the power’s maximum range; the new unit is under your control and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes. If the new unit suffers a Deep Strike mishap and ends up in Ongoing Reserves, it can Deep Strike anywhere on the board when it enters play.
so obviously it is possible for the rules writers to include rules on things arriving by deep strike and counting as coming from reserves, something GoI does not do because you do not have any raw permission to count as coming from reserves.
blaktoof wrote: but you assume arriving immediately means it went into reserves and comes back out what is RAI and HYWPI argument.
False. Again, stop putting words in my mouth. I've supported that argument with actual rules, which makes it a RAW argument.
An equally Valid argument which makes more sense is that it never goes into reserves, and it arrives back onto the table.
One that isn't supported by actual rules, however.
You further then go on to state that it uses this because it uses the rules for deep strike, however you claim it does not use the rules for deep strike because the unit does not have to have deep strike nor begin the game in reserves even those are part of the rules for deep strike.
That's a lie. The unit does use the rules for Deep Strike. GoI, however, conflicts with some of them and, as we know, specific overrides general in the case of a conflict meaning that GoI wins. Please stop presenting this as me contradicting myself.
as such your arguement is very flip floppy, without any rules support other than a RAI statement on what immediately could mean- the result of which you wish to take only part of the rules from DS regarding reserves and not the rest, without any rules support for doing either.
Except, of course, I've supported my statements with rules. You continue to ignore that fact.
by the RAW nothing in GOI states the unit goes into reserves, nor does it state they arrive from deep strike reserves, or arrive from reserves by deep strike. You are injecting rules for reserves in GoI that do not exist based on part of the rules for DS, then ignoring the rest without any actual explanation of why. If questioned on it you simply claim people are putting words in your mouth and not supporting their points with any rules, even while they are supporting their point with rules, and you still have not actually supported or explained with rules how you are applying some of the rules for DS but not the others within the constraints of GoI.
Um. I haven't? Please, enlighten me.
so obviously it is possible for the rules writers to include rules on things arriving by deep strike and counting as coming from reserves, something GoI does not do because you do not have any raw permission to count as coming from reserves.
Please explain how you roll to arrive from Reserves if you are not actually arriving from Reserves.
Both you and BlackTalos have asserted and agreed that that line of the Deep Strike rules is relevant but refuse to explain how that is possible.
blaktoof wrote: but you assume arriving immediately means it went into reserves and comes back out what is RAI and HYWPI argument.
False. Again, stop putting words in my mouth. I've supported that argument with actual rules, which makes it a RAW argument.
So you can show an actual rule that says that when a unit is removed from the table via Gate of Infinity, it is put into Deep Strike Reserves?
Because I don't see any mention of Deep Strike Reserves in the rules for Gate of Infinity.
Yes. I have.
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
It's a Deep Striking unit, correct?
It's rolling to arrive as specified in the rules for Reserves, correct? (This step is skipped because of the conflict generated by GoI - namely that you immediately arrive)
Which means that it's arriving from Reserves, correct? If you disagree, please explain how the unit is described as rolling to arrive as specified in the rules for Reserves, but not actually arriving from Reserves.
A Deep Striking unit that arrives from Reserves is arriving from Deep Strike Reserves. "When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."
ive asserted that either all the rules for DS are followed for GoI, which makes little sense because then you cannot gate with models that do not have DS and or did not begin the game in reserves if that is the case, but then can maybe claim the unit rolled for reserves but arrives immediately- even though the rules for GoI do not state any of that.
or that since GoI never says the models go into reserve, or count as coming from reserve, that they are never in reserve and them immediately being put on the table has nothing to do with reserves- since the rules as written for GoI never state anything about reserves.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
When the power is resolved, the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike, within the power’s maximum range; the new unit is under your control and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes. If the new unit suffers a Deep Strike mishap and ends up in Ongoing Reserves, it can Deep Strike anywhere on the board when it enters play.
again an explanation of a power that has rules for arriving by DS and counts as coming from reserves for all purposes.
gate states nothing about reserves.
Nothing in gate states you roll for reserves or even follow that step.
so there is a large jump in your reasoning that has a lack of any rules at all supporting it. ie that models are placed in reserves when gating but do not roll and are instead immediately placed on the table. notice all the words you have to add that are not in the rules to put reserves in there?
blaktoof wrote: ive asserted that either all the rules for DS are followed for GoI, which makes little sense because then you cannot gate with models that do not have DS and or did not begin the game in reserves if that is the case, but then can maybe claim the unit rolled for reserves but arrives immediately- even though the rules for GoI do not state any of that.
Again, and I'll use big letters so maybe you can understand (because I've said this before).
THIS. IS. A. FALSE. STATEMENT.
or that since GoI never says the models go into reserve, or count as coming from reserve, that they are never in reserve and them immediately being put on the table has nothing to do with reserves- since the rules as written for GoI never state anything about reserves.
They are placed using the DS rules, correct?
Do the DS rules mention anything about Reserves? Anything at all?
Nothing in gate states you roll for reserves or even follow that step.
Please, quote the rules for DS that apply since apparently you are doing so selectively.
so there is a large jump in your reasoning that has a lack of any rules at all supporting it. ie that models are placed in reserves when gating but do not roll and are instead immediately placed on the table. notice all the words you have to add that are not in the rules to put reserves in there?
GoI references the Deep Strike rules. Agreed?
So by referencing them, it must include them. Agreed?
How about you address my actual arguments instead of implying I'm being foolish or making things up?
rigeld2 wrote: Do the DS rules mention anything about Reserves? Anything at all?
Yes, they say a number of things about Reserves. Including
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike...the unit must start the game in Reserve.
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent it will be arriving by Deep Strike.
Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve...
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves...
rigeld2 wrote: Do the DS rules mention anything about Reserves? Anything at all?
Yes, they say a number of things about Reserves. Including
1) In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike...the unit must start the game in Reserve.
2) When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent it will be arriving by Deep Strike.
3) Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve...
4) Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves...
GoI conflicts with 1 when it mandates that any Psyker manifesting must Deep Strike. Therefore #1 doesn't apply.
#2 is irrelevant - it goes in and immediately arrives back out, per GoI.
GoI conflicts with #3 by being able to cast after the beginning of the game.
GoI conflicts with #4 by stating the unit immediately arrives.
Rules based answers. Any rules based rebuttals? blaktoof and BlackTalos haven't been able to offer any yet.
rigeld2 wrote: Do the DS rules mention anything about Reserves? Anything at all?
Yes, they say a number of things about Reserves. Including
1) In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike...the unit must start the game in Reserve.
2) When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent it will be arriving by Deep Strike.
3) Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve...
4) Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves...
GoI conflicts with 1 when it mandates that any Psyker manifesting must Deep Strike. Therefore #1 doesn't apply.
#2 is irrelevant - it goes in and immediately arrives back out, per GoI.
GoI conflicts with #3 by being able to cast after the beginning of the game.
GoI conflicts with #4 by stating the unit immediately arrives.
Rules based answers. Any rules based rebuttals? blaktoof and BlackTalos haven't been able to offer any yet.
You are claiming that the unit goes into Reserves. Or at least that is what it appears to me. I've listed all the mentions of Reserves (with the exception of Deep Strike Mishaps) found in the Deep Strike rules. So, #1 does not apply. #2 does not apply. #3 does not apply. #4 does not apply. #5 (Deep Strike Mishap) may or may not apply. So what does GoI have to do with reserves?
rigeld2 wrote: Do the DS rules mention anything about Reserves? Anything at all?
Yes, they say a number of things about Reserves. Including
1) In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike...the unit must start the game in Reserve.
2) When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent it will be arriving by Deep Strike.
3) Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve...
4) Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves...
GoI conflicts with 1 when it mandates that any Psyker manifesting must Deep Strike. Therefore #1 doesn't apply.
#2 is irrelevant - it goes in and immediately arrives back out, per GoI.
GoI conflicts with #3 by being able to cast after the beginning of the game.
GoI conflicts with #4 by stating the unit immediately arrives.
Rules based answers. Any rules based rebuttals? blaktoof and BlackTalos haven't been able to offer any yet.
You are claiming that the unit goes into Reserves. Or at least that is what it appears to me. I've listed all the mentions of Reserves (with the exception of Deep Strike Mishaps) found in the Deep Strike rules. So, #1 does not apply. #2 does not apply. #3 does not apply. #4 does not apply. #5 (Deep Strike Mishap) may or may not apply. So what does GoI have to do with reserves?
#2 does apply because it doesn't conflict. #3 applies, but isn't a limitation because GoI mandates things after the start of the game.
Do you really want me to answer or are you just going to be contrary?
actually none of the things conflict that you state do, because GoI does not state anything about them that would conflict.
the rules for DS require you to have deep strike, be placed in reserves, then tell your opponent "hey, these guys over here are in reserves and are DSing in"
then you roll for reserves and deploy them as follows:
the reason GoI does not use reserves, other than the fact that the rules for it never give you permission to count as being in reserves, or to have arrived from deep strike reserves, is because the unit was never in reserves- that part of DS is completely ignored and you immediately placed the unit using the rules for deep strike i.e. place model from unit roll scatter look at mishap table...
You are not told nor given permission for the unit to enter reserves, then immediately leave reserves by autopassing a roll or ignoring a roll[none of that is stated, and you are making a RAI argument that the unit goes into reserves without ever being told it does]
Further claiming it does, brings up all the other rules before it as in - the unit has to have deep strike, the unit has to have been reserves etc...none of which you have resolved by blanket claiming "it conflicts[no actual reason why given] so ignored"
Off the table. They are not on the table (having been removed) and they are not in reserves, as you are never told to put the unit in reserve.
Though the way I usually see it actually played is the first model is moved while the rest of the unit patiently awaits teleportation in their starting location.
BlackTalos wrote: Two very different phrases. What does arriving "as specified in the rules for Reserves" even entail? "Moving On From Reserve" paragraph? why would DS Units arrive following those rules?
DS conflicts with "Moving on from Reserve" and therefore replaces the parts it conflicts with. It doesn't conflict with every Reserve rule.
I was asking for what these "not conflicted" Reserves rules are? I do not see them as relevant whatsoever.
Or also, explain to me what you mean by: "the rest of the rules for Reserves still stand."? what are these?
Well, for starters, this thread involves one.
If you must roll to arrive as specified in the rules for Reserves (which you've agreed applies, but GoI overrides), how can you "arrive" if you were never in Reserves? How can the rule possibly apply if the unit is never in Reserves? You've agreed/asserted it applies.
You "arrive" as defined by the rules for GoI: " It then immediately arrives". No need for any mention of "Reserves". Deep Strike requires you "arrive", GoI specifies you arrive. Closed Loop.
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:" It's a Deep Striking unit, correct? It's rolling to arrive as specified in the rules for Reserves, correct? (This step is skipped because of the conflict generated by GoI - namely that you immediately arrive) Which means that it's arriving from Reserves, correct? If you disagree, please explain how the unit is described as rolling to arrive as specified in the rules for Reserves, but not actually arriving from Reserves.
The underlined is incorrect. You are not reading the phrase properly. I think you missed my intention in the last post: "Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
The above does not mean: [[Roll for]] the arrival (of all Deep Striking units) as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:" Where the clause of "rolling a dice" is for the "arrival of the Unit as described in reserves". That is not the meaning of the phrase. It never relates to "Moving on from Reserve"
"Roll for (the arrival of all Deep Striking units) as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:" Is how the phrase works. You are rolling for arrival, just as is described in the Reserves rule. The phrase refers to "Arriving from Reserve", more specifically, how you roll to arrive.
TL : DR : What is "specified in the rules for Reserves"? Rolling for the arrival. Not "the method of arrival".
Why? because "and then deploy them as follows" is part of the phrase. You don't need specification of how to arrive, it's given to you. The "roll" however, is undefined: What are you rolling? 2D6? 1D10? By your interpretation we would never know, because only the arrival method "is specified". With my interpretation, however, we know exactly what to Roll: It is specified in the rules for Reserves. ("roll a D6 for each unit...")
jeffersonian000 wrote: Where are the models in the unit after they are removed from the table, but before one of the models is used as a marker for scatter?
SJ
Off the Table, as Happyjew says.
Where are the models in the unit after they are removed from the table, but before one of the models disembarks from the Transport?
Both case are left "undefined". For consistency, the answer to both questions would be the same. Also, both situations imply that the Unit is still "in play".
Yes, the models are neither on the table, nor casualties, just like when embarked. They are in fact "Deep Striking (also known as Deep Strike Reserves)". They are not in Reserves, yet may go into On-Going Reserves due to a Mishap. They are not Embarked, yet function similarly to being Embarked. They have not been removed from play, yet are not physically in play (leaving the bulk of the unit on the table while placing one as a marker is not the way the process is described in the rules, so does not count as a valid place where the models go to when directed to remove them from the table).
Per RAW, models that are Deep Striking start off the table, Gate of Infinity requires the models to be removed from the table. No conflict so far.
Per RAW, the unit makes a Reserves roll to arrive by Deep Strike, Gate bypasses this requirement with its "immediately" timing. Still no conflict as the more specific rule trumps the less specific rule per RAW.
Per RAW, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike USR, Gate temporarily grants the Deep Strike USR to the unit via the permission to use the Deep Strike rules to arrive. Without this specific permission, the Deep Strike process could not be used (I.e., you could not Deep Strike without permission to do so). As permission is granted, as is the USR, if only for that single instance of use. No conflict due to permission granting the ability, therefore the ability is present.
Rites of Teleportation does not require a unit to arrive from Reserves, the benefit only requires the NSF unit to arrive via Deep Strike. Gate requires the unit to arrive by Deep Strike. If the unit using Gate is a NSF unit, the requirements to gain the use of Battle Focus upon arrival are met without conflict.
Skies of Fury also requires the disembarking unit to Deep Strike, while the disembarking unit does not necessarily require the Deep Strike USR in order to use the Skies of Fury special rule. Just like in the Gate argument, Skies grants permission to use the Deep Strike rules to arrive on the table, grants permission to bypass any Reserves roll required by Deep Strike, and grants the single use of the Deep Strike USR if the unit does not already have the Deep Strike USR. Unlike Rites, however, Skies is not a benefit, and can cause the elimination of the unit from the game in case of any Mishap. Yet, the requirements for Rites are met if the NSF unit is arriving via Deep Strike when disembarking via Skies of Fury.
In addition, a NSF unit arriving by Drop Pod also triggers Rites due to having arrived via Deep Strike. In all three cases (Gate, Skies, Pod), Rite will be triggered for the arriving NSF unit due to having arrived via Deep Strike.
Please show otherwise, if you feel this is incorrect per RAW.
The problem is, Gate of Infinity allows the arrival using the rules for Deep Strike, but it never grants the Unit Deep Strike, even temporarily. Rules that grant USR will have specific terminology to do so. I can find examples if you need them.
Secondly, you keep proving how "must have the Deep Strike special rule" is somehow (disagreeably) covered, but you never answer how the Unit follows "They always begin the game in Reserve"?
Lastly, you keep insisting that "arriving by Deep Strike" (Oh look: it's the sub-title from the Deep Strike USR) must mean the Unit is in Deep Strike Reserves, but how does that work for Skies of Fury? The Unit disembarks, enters reserves, and then Deep Strikes?
You need to understand that certain rules allow you to "arrive by Deep Strike". This is completely literal in its meaning: Read the "arriving by Deep Strike" subsection of the Deep Strike USR, and follow those rules.
Rites of Teleportation does not require a unit to arrive from Reserves, the benefit only requires the NSF unit to arrive via Deep Strike. Gate requires the unit to arrive by Deep Strike. If the unit using Gate is a NSF unit, the requirements to gain the use of Battle Focus upon arrival are met without conflict.
As rites only require you arrive by deep strike but not that you be in Deep Strike Reserves, then it would indeed apply, yes. So why is this even an argument?
if the models affected by GoI must immediately arrive upon casting of the power, they cannot go somewhere else before immediately being put on the table, ie they cannot go to reserves because thats not immediately on the table.
this ontop of GoI never stating it invokes reserves, nor gives permission to go to reserves before the unit immediately arrives on the table.
the 2nd part of rites requires you to "arrive from deepstrike reserve" not "only arrive by deepstrike" to get the run and shoot which is the point of this thread.
arriving using the rules for deepstrike does not mean you are arriving using the rules for deepstrike reserves, as has been pointed out many times in the thread.
additionally in the GK tactical objectives, number 15.
It differentiates gate from being something other than arriving from deepstrike reserve. Therefore plainly in the RAW gate is not arriving from deep strike reserves with this example.
blaktoof wrote: the 2nd part of rites requires you to "arrive from deepstrike reserve" not "only arrive by deepstrike" to get the run and shoot which is the point of this thread.
arriving using the rules for deepstrike does not mean you are arriving using the rules for deepstrike reserves, as has been pointed out many times in the thread.
Ah, sorry, i stand corrected.
Deep Strike Reserves = Reserves, it's in the RaW. There's no way a Unit with GoI or Skies of Fury goes into Reserves.
It specifically says using all the rules. It also tells you to deep strike the unit, thus giving specific permission to ds despite possibly not having the ds usr. Specific rules beat general rules, correct?
If Deep Strike Reserves = Arrives by Deep Strike, then Arrives by Deep Strike MUST = Deep Strike Reserves.
If A=B, than B=A. You break the rules of logic and math if you say otherwise.
No, it's not A=B.
It's A is part of B, which does not mean B is part of A...
Arriving by Deep Strike does not mean you were in Deep Strike Reserves. Skies of Fury is for passengers of a Stormraven. Are they in Deep Strike Reserves?
What if the Storm raven started on a Skyshield? were they ever in Deep Strike Reserves?
The only definition of Deep Strike Reserves is that it = Arriving by Deep Strike. It is not C+B=A. Its explicitly A=B.
Therefore, any unit arriving by deep strike is arriving from Deep Strike Reserves. Deep Strike Reserves has nothing to do with actual Reserves, its just another term for arriving by Deep Strike.
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
Is the 'sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve' referring to the whole sentence, or just the part 'arriving by Deep Strike'? It isn't clear if the act of putting something in Reserves for the purpose of Deep Striking is what is 'sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve' or if they mean any instance of 'arriving by Deep Strike' is 'sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve'.
The only definition of Deep Strike Reserves is that it = Arriving by Deep Strike. It is not C+B=A. Its explicitly A=B.
Therefore, any unit arriving by deep strike is arriving from Deep Strike Reserves. Deep Strike Reserves has nothing to do with actual Reserves, its just another term for arriving by Deep Strike.
Codex Blood Angels, Drop Pod:
"Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves."
It says that the Tactical Squad is in Deep Strike Reserves. You state that this = arriving by Deep Strike.
Can you explain how you are placing the marines on the table?
If you place 1 marine, and scatter his location, while placing the others around him, I will concede that you are indeed correct.
If you think that they disembark from the drop pod, within 6", they cannot be arriving "by Deep Strike".
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
Is the 'sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve' referring to the whole sentence, or just the part 'arriving by Deep Strike'? It isn't clear if the act of putting something in Reserves for the purpose of Deep Striking is what is 'sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve' or if they mean any instance of 'arriving by Deep Strike' is 'sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve'.
The fact that it uses "sometimes" also means that 'Deep Strike Reserve' is probably not even a defined RaW term.... but yay to rules writing
BlackTalos wrote: The problem is, Gate of Infinity allows the arrival using the rules for Deep Strike, but it never grants the Unit Deep Strike, even temporarily. Rules that grant USR will have specific terminology to do so. I can find examples if you need them.
One of the interesting effects of a permissive rules set is that permission grants access, even if the access is implied. In this case, in order to Deep Strike a unit must have access to the Deep Strike rules, which are found under the Deep Strike USR. Permission to use the Deep Strike rules = access to the Deep Strike USR = having the Deep Strike USR via the ability that grants permission to use Deep Strike rules. As Gate of Infinity requires the use of the Deep Strike rules, and the Deep Strike rules require the Deep Strike USR, per the rules as written the unit using Gate grants itself the Deep Strike USR briefly for that single use of Gate. Permission to do so is provided by the power.
Deny it all you want, it is RAW.
Secondly, you keep proving how "must have the Deep Strike special rule" is somehow (disagreeably) covered, but you never answer how the Unit follows "They always begin the game in Reserve"?
As a permissive rules set, permission to of something is what allows something to be done within the game. Permission in this case is provided by the portion of the Gate of Infinity power that tells the player to remove the unit from the table. Where are the models at the beginning of the Deep Strike process? The unit is in Deep Strike Reserves, aka Deep Strike. Permission is granted to place the unit into Deep Strike, aka Deep Strike Reserve, before immediately returning the unit to the table via the Deep Strike rules, aka the Deep Strike USR. A permissive rules set requires permission to be granted, and permission is granted through use of the power.
The point is undeniable, as well. RAW = permission grants permission, and permission is granted through the power.
Lastly, you keep insisting that "arriving by Deep Strike" (Oh look: it's the sub-title from the Deep Strike USR) must mean the Unit is in Deep Strike Reserves, but how does that work for Skies of Fury? The Unit disembarks, enters reserves, and then Deep Strikes?
You need to understand that certain rules allow you to "arrive by Deep Strike". This is completely literal in its meaning: Read the "arriving by Deep Strike" subsection of the Deep Strike USR, and follow those rules.
RAW = permission grants permission, and permission is granted through the special rule. Skies of Fury modifies the way a unit can disembark from a Flyer by granting permission to use Deep Strike, which means Deep Strike, aka Deep Strike USR, aka Deep Strike Reserves. Poor writing on GW's part, but RAW is RAW.
Rites of Teleportation does not require a unit to arrive from Reserves, the benefit only requires the NSF unit to arrive via Deep Strike. Gate requires the unit to arrive by Deep Strike. If the unit using Gate is a NSF unit, the requirements to gain the use of Battle Focus upon arrival are met without conflict.
As rites only require you arrive by deep strike but not that you be in Deep Strike Reserves, then it would indeed apply, yes. So why is this even an argument?
therefore I can attempt to deny the witch against lascannons, thanks.
oh wait, that's not how the rules work.
Automatically Appended Next Post: please be careful when you use the term "permissive rules set"
firstly the rules for GoI do not grant permission in any form for the unit to go into reserve. Nothing about reserves is stated, there is no permission for it.
The unit has permission to be removed from the board, and then is required to immediately arrive using the rules for deep strike. There is nothing stating the unit is in reserves, is required to go into reserves, or was in reserves - there is no permission and that part is at this point fabricated. Going into reserves when they are removed is something happening after being removed before they are put on the table, as we are told they are immediately placed then nothing else can be happening after they are taken off the table. And again, there is no statement they are going into reserves, or arriving from deep strike reserves in the rules for GoI. In fact nothing at all about reserves.
further as shown in the tactical objective result '15' the GK codex differentiates "arriving from deep strike reserves" from shunt, and GoI, showing that GoI is not arriving from deep strike reserves, if it were they would not need to state gate as it would be covered under "arriving from deep strike reserves"
nowhere in gate does it state you go to reserves, arrive from deepstrike reserves, or count as arriving from deep strike reserves. Other rules [conjurations] which summon units to the table and they arrive using the rules for deep strike specifically state they count as coming from reserves, because they need that permission there to actually count as coming from reserves.
therefore I can attempt to deny the witch against lascannons, thanks.
This is great news! I can't wait to start denying all those pesky bolter shots!
Having said that... the rules are written so poorly and require multiple levels of inference and implied permission that these arguments always go in circles. Deep Striking Units are allowed to Disembark from Deep Striking Transports on the turn the Transport Deep Strikes, but the Embarked Deep Striking Unit isn't Deep Striking because it didn't Deep Strike despite being a Deep Striking Unit and coming in from Deep Strike Reserves. Deep Striking Units can Deep Strike without being in Deep Strike Reserves. Deep Striking requires a unit have the Deep Strike Rule. Models without the Deep Strike rule can sometimes Deep Strike. Um... round and round we go!
RAI/HIWPI - The general fluff would seem to indicate that any teleporting/grav chute inserting/demonic materializing/jumping out of an Orca unit is momentarily stunned/getting situated and can't attack the turn it comes into play. I would play that any process that causes a unit to be dematerialized and rematerialized or ejected out of a plane would have the same effect.
Happyjew wrote: Off the table. They are not on the table (having been removed) and they are not in reserves, as you are never told to put the unit in reserve.
Though the way I usually see it actually played is the first model is moved while the rest of the unit patiently awaits teleportation in their starting location.
Do you have permission to move non-dead models off of the table and put them anywhere other than reserves?
Happyjew wrote: Off the table. They are not on the table (having been removed) and they are not in reserves, as you are never told to put the unit in reserve.
Though the way I usually see it actually played is the first model is moved while the rest of the unit patiently awaits teleportation in their starting location.
Do you have permission to move non-dead models off of the table and put them anywhere other than reserves?
Happyjew wrote: Off the table. They are not on the table (having been removed) and they are not in reserves, as you are never told to put the unit in reserve.
Though the way I usually see it actually played is the first model is moved while the rest of the unit patiently awaits teleportation in their starting location.
Do you have permission to move non-dead models off of the table and put them anywhere other than reserves?
When embarking on a Transport?
True, though they're not considered in a transport when removed from the table when they Deep Strike.
Nor were they removed as a casualty
The only place for them to go is Reserves, however briefly, per the rules
Happyjew wrote: Off the table. They are not on the table (having been removed) and they are not in reserves, as you are never told to put the unit in reserve.
Though the way I usually see it actually played is the first model is moved while the rest of the unit patiently awaits teleportation in their starting location.
Do you have permission to move non-dead models off of the table and put them anywhere other than reserves?
When embarking on a Transport?
True, though they're not considered in a transport when removed from the table when they Deep Strike.
Nor were they removed as a casualty
The only place for them to go is Reserves, however briefly, per the rules
The only place? You're adding that bit yourself. How about... not on the board. From Gate of Infinity... "remove the target and his unit from the board". Where is the target and his unit? The only reasonable answer we can give that is supported by the rules is "not on the board". Saying they're placed in reserves (even for a moment) just isn't supported by the rules. If you just HAVE to have a name for the place they go, it's in the description. They're in the Warp.
We're most definitely NOT told to place them in Reserves. If you truly believe we are, highlight the bit in the GoI rule that tells us explicitly to put the target and its unit in Reserves. I'll post it to make it easier on you. Me? I can't find the word Reserves in there anywhere.
"Gate of Infinity is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Unless the target is Zooming or Swooping, remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike."
This is demonstrably incorrect. Attempting to exaggerate your opponents arguments like this is the definition of a straw man.
If you must resort to straw man arguments to prove your point, maybe you should rethink your position.
It's supposed to be demonstrably incorrect. The whole point is to show that A is B doesn't always mean B is A. Kind of like how all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.
Arriving from Deep Strike Reserves means you're Deep Striking. Deep Striking doesn't necessarily mean you're arriving From Deep Strike Reserves.
BlackTalos wrote: The problem is, Gate of Infinity allows the arrival using the rules for Deep Strike, but it never grants the Unit Deep Strike, even temporarily. Rules that grant USR will have specific terminology to do so. I can find examples if you need them.
One of the interesting effects of a permissive rules set is that permission grants access, even if the access is implied. In this case, in order to Deep Strike a unit must have access to the Deep Strike rules, which are found under the Deep Strike USR. Permission to use the Deep Strike rules = access to the Deep Strike USR = having the Deep Strike USR via the ability that grants permission to use Deep Strike rules. As Gate of Infinity requires the use of the Deep Strike rules, and the Deep Strike rules require the Deep Strike USR, per the rules as written the unit using Gate grants itself the Deep Strike USR briefly for that single use of Gate. Permission to do so is provided by the power.
Deny it all you want, it is RAW.
Secondly, you keep proving how "must have the Deep Strike special rule" is somehow (disagreeably) covered, but you never answer how the Unit follows "They always begin the game in Reserve"?
As a permissive rules set, permission to of something is what allows something to be done within the game. Permission in this case is provided by the portion of the Gate of Infinity power that tells the player to remove the unit from the table. Where are the models at the beginning of the Deep Strike process? The unit is in Deep Strike Reserves, aka Deep Strike. Permission is granted to place the unit into Deep Strike, aka Deep Strike Reserve, before immediately returning the unit to the table via the Deep Strike rules, aka the Deep Strike USR. A permissive rules set requires permission to be granted, and permission is granted through use of the power.
The point is undeniable, as well. RAW = permission grants permission, and permission is granted through the power.
Lastly, you keep insisting that "arriving by Deep Strike" (Oh look: it's the sub-title from the Deep Strike USR) must mean the Unit is in Deep Strike Reserves, but how does that work for Skies of Fury? The Unit disembarks, enters reserves, and then Deep Strikes?
You need to understand that certain rules allow you to "arrive by Deep Strike". This is completely literal in its meaning: Read the "arriving by Deep Strike" subsection of the Deep Strike USR, and follow those rules.
RAW = permission grants permission, and permission is granted through the special rule. Skies of Fury modifies the way a unit can disembark from a Flyer by granting permission to use Deep Strike, which means Deep Strike, aka Deep Strike USR, aka Deep Strike Reserves. Poor writing on GW's part, but RAW is RAW.
Rites of Teleportation does not require a unit to arrive from Reserves, the benefit only requires the NSF unit to arrive via Deep Strike. Gate requires the unit to arrive by Deep Strike. If the unit using Gate is a NSF unit, the requirements to gain the use of Battle Focus upon arrival are met without conflict.
As rites only require you arrive by deep strike but not that you be in Deep Strike Reserves, then it would indeed apply, yes. So why is this even an argument?
Re-read this thread's title.
SJ
Again, you contradict your own logic.
The Deep Strike USR has 2 clauses:
"must have the Deep Strike special rule" and "They always begin the game in Reserve" You are asserting that you must follow ALL of these rules (IMHO you only need the "arriving by Deep Strike") as per your post:
As Gate of Infinity requires the use of the Deep Strike rules, and the Deep Strike rules require the Deep Strike USR, per the rules as written
I will state again: the Deep Strike rules require they always begin the game in Reserve, per the rules as written.
As a permissive rules set, permission to of something is what allows something to be done within the game. Permission in this case is provided by the portion of the Gate of Infinity power that tells the player to remove the unit from the table. Where are the models at the beginning of the Deep Strike process? The unit is in Deep Strike Reserves, aka Deep Strike. Permission is granted to place the unit into Deep Strike, aka Deep Strike Reserve, before immediately returning the unit to the table via the Deep Strike rules, aka the Deep Strike USR. A permissive rules set requires permission to be granted, and permission is granted through use of the power.
The point is undeniable, as well. RAW = permission grants permission, and permission is granted through the power.
Yes, you have permission to Deep Strike, great. Now answer how you remove the restriction of having to Start the Game in Reserves?
The above does not answer this. Because it is impossible for you to do so.
RAW = permission grants permission, and permission is granted through the special rule. Skies of Fury modifies the way a unit can disembark from a Flyer by granting permission to use Deep Strike, which means Deep Strike, aka Deep Strike USR, aka Deep Strike Reserves. Poor writing on GW's part, but RAW is RAW.
So you ARE asserting that a Unit disembarking from a Stormraven is going into Reserves?
This is a simple Yes/No by the way.
This is demonstrably incorrect. Attempting to exaggerate your opponents arguments like this is the definition of a straw man.
If you must resort to straw man arguments to prove your point, maybe you should rethink your position.
It's supposed to be demonstrably incorrect. The whole point is to show that A is B doesn't always mean B is A. Kind of like how all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.
Arriving from Deep Strike Reserves means you're Deep Striking. Deep Striking doesn't necessarily mean you're arriving From Deep Strike Reserves.
BRB wrote:When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
So arrive from Deep Strike is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves, arriving from Deep Strike isn't arriving from Deep Strike Reserves.
I'm confused.
This is demonstrably incorrect. Attempting to exaggerate your opponents arguments like this is the definition of a straw man.
If you must resort to straw man arguments to prove your point, maybe you should rethink your position.
It's supposed to be demonstrably incorrect. The whole point is to show that A is B doesn't always mean B is A. Kind of like how all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.
Arriving from Deep Strike Reserves means you're Deep Striking. Deep Striking doesn't necessarily mean you're arriving From Deep Strike Reserves.
BRB wrote:When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
So arrive from Deep Strike is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves, arriving from Deep Strike isn't arriving from Deep Strike Reserves.
I'm confused.
Relating it to the point at hand:
BRB wrote:When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
Arriving from Reserves by Deep Strike means you must have been in Deep Strike Reserve.
Arriving by Deep Strike from a transport, a Gate or a Veil of Darkness does not mean you had to be in Deep Strike Reserve.
As for Jeffersonian, please prove how models disembarking from a Stormraven (demonstrably arriving by Deep Strike) are placed in Reserves (of any kind at this point, it does not matter).
This is demonstrably incorrect. Attempting to exaggerate your opponents arguments like this is the definition of a straw man.
If you must resort to straw man arguments to prove your point, maybe you should rethink your position.
It's supposed to be demonstrably incorrect. The whole point is to show that A is B doesn't always mean B is A. Kind of like how all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.
Arriving from Deep Strike Reserves means you're Deep Striking. Deep Striking doesn't necessarily mean you're arriving From Deep Strike Reserves.
BRB wrote:When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
So arrive from Deep Strike is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves, arriving from Deep Strike isn't arriving from Deep Strike Reserves.
I'm confused.
Relating it to the point at hand:
BRB wrote:When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
Arriving from Reserves by Deep Strike means you must have been in Deep Strike Reserve.
Arriving by Deep Strike from a transport, a Gate or a Veil of Darkness does not mean you had to be in Deep Strike Reserve.
So you agree that rule would apply if they (GoI, VoD, etc) were in Reserves? Just checking. Please just say "Yes" or "No"
This is demonstrably incorrect. Attempting to exaggerate your opponents arguments like this is the definition of a straw man.
If you must resort to straw man arguments to prove your point, maybe you should rethink your position.
It's supposed to be demonstrably incorrect. The whole point is to show that A is B doesn't always mean B is A. Kind of like how all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.
Arriving from Deep Strike Reserves means you're Deep Striking. Deep Striking doesn't necessarily mean you're arriving From Deep Strike Reserves.
BRB wrote:When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
So arrive from Deep Strike is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves, arriving from Deep Strike isn't arriving from Deep Strike Reserves.
I'm confused.
It's confusing because it's poorly written.
Change your from's to by's and then do this...
A unit placed in Reserves and designated as arriving by Deep Strike is sometimes said to be in Deep Strike Reserves.
A unit arriving by Deep Strike is not necessarily arriving from Reserves.
I suspect when you say "a unit arriving FROM Deep Strike" you mean from Deep Strike Reserves. BY Deep Strike just refers to the actual placement/scatter/etc process. That process doesn't care where the models originate.
Happyjew wrote: Off the table. They are not on the table (having been removed) and they are not in reserves, as you are never told to put the unit in reserve.
Though the way I usually see it actually played is the first model is moved while the rest of the unit patiently awaits teleportation in their starting location.
Do you have permission to move non-dead models off of the table and put them anywhere other than reserves?
When embarking on a Transport?
True, though they're not considered in a transport when removed from the table when they Deep Strike.
Nor were they removed as a casualty
The only place for them to go is Reserves, however briefly, per the rules
The only place? You're adding that bit yourself. How about... not on the board. From Gate of Infinity... "remove the target and his unit from the board". Where is the target and his unit? The only reasonable answer we can give that is supported by the rules is "not on the board". Saying they're placed in reserves (even for a moment) just isn't supported by the rules. If you just HAVE to have a name for the place they go, it's in the description. They're in the Warp.
We're most definitely NOT told to place them in Reserves. If you truly believe we are, highlight the bit in the GoI rule that tells us explicitly to put the target and its unit in Reserves. I'll post it to make it easier on you. Me? I can't find the word Reserves in there anywhere.
"Gate of Infinity is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Unless the target is Zooming or Swooping, remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike."
That's been covered prior in the thread per the rules for Deep Strike. You cant look at GOI in a vacuum, you have to also look at the rules for Deep STrike
I would still argue general versus advanced. The GoI rule tells us to remove them from the board and then immediately use the Deep Strike rules to have them arrive.
The Deep Strike rules seem to require placing the models/units in Deep Strike Reserves.
GoI says off the table. DS says Deep Strike Reserves. Advanced versus General. Off the table wins. Off the table =/= Deep Strike Reserves.
Kriswall wrote: I would still argue general versus advanced. The GoI rule tells us to remove them from the board and then immediately use the Deep Strike rules to have them arrive.
The Deep Strike rules seem to require placing the models/units in Deep Strike Reserves.
GoI says off the table. DS says Deep Strike Reserves. Advanced versus General. Off the table wins. Off the table =/= Deep Strike Reserves.
Actually, by your argument, Off the Table = Deep Strike Reserves if the unit is returning to the Table via Deep Strike. Off the Table can = On-Going Reserves if not returning via Deep Strike, or if a Mishap occurs during Deep Strike. Off the Tabke also = removed as a casualty.
On Skies of Fury and Reserves, by following the rules as written, an unit embarked on a Zooming or Swooping Transport may disembark via Deep Strike at any point along the line of movement of the Transport. What does this mean? This means the unit disembarking is arriving via Deep Strike, and therefore qualifies for any benefit that require arriving from Deep Strike.
How does the unit bypass the Reservs requirement? Skies of Fury grants implied permission.
How does the unit bypass the roll the arrive? Skies of Fury grants implied permission.
Counts as Deep Strike = Deep Strike.
Uses rules for Deep Strike = Deep Strike.
Deep Strike Reserces = Deep Strike.
Deep Strike (aka, Deep Strike Reserves) =/= Reserves.
Again, GW wrote these rules, and have yet to errata or FAQ any changes. At the moment, arriving by Deep Strike and using the rules for Deep Strike is exactly the same as Deep Striking via the Deep Strike USR.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Rites of Teleportation does not require the unit to be arriving from Reserves. Rites does require the unit to be arriving by Deep Strike.
SJ
No, RoT requires the unit to arrive from Deep Strike Reserves.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Rites of Teleportation does not require the unit to be arriving from Reserves. Rites does require the unit to be arriving by Deep Strike.
SJ
No, RoT requires the unit to arrive from Deep Strike Reserves.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Rites of Teleportation does not require the unit to be arriving from Reserves. Rites does require the unit to be arriving by Deep Strike.
SJ
No, RoT requires the unit to arrive from Deep Strike Reserves.
Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserves.
Please try to keep up.
SJ
No, deep strike =/= deep strike reserves. Deep Strike Reserves is reserves from which a unit Deep Strikes. Deep Strike is a special rule.
Furthermore, Rites of Teleportation specifically requires the unit to be arriving from Deep Strike Reserves.
You are ignoring explicit rules text. The only definition of Deep Strike Reserves is any unit arriving by Deep Strike. It is the only definition, you cannot argue this.
Your refusal to acknowledge this is extremely odd. Its quite black and white.
Deep Strike Reserves = Arriving by Deep Strike. Arriving by Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserves.
This is absolute and irrefutable. All you've done is quote rule text which destroys your own argument. Know when to quit, please. It quite tiresome to keep arguing over this point.
Grey Templar wrote: You are ignoring explicit rules text. The only definition of Deep Strike Reserves is any unit arriving by Deep Strike. It is the only definition, you cannot argue this.
Your refusal to acknowledge this is extremely odd. Its quite black and white.
Deep Strike Reserves = Arriving by Deep Strike. Arriving by Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserves.
This is absolute and irrefutable. All you've done is quote rule text which destroys your own argument. Know when to quit, please. It quite tiresome to keep arguing over this point.
When placing a unit is Reserves, you must tell your opponent it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves). So Deep Strike Reserves is 2 things - Reserves (when placing a unit in reserves), and arrival by deep strike (be arriving by Deep Strike).
So in order to place a unit in Deep Strike Reserves, you must fill both criteria - tell your opponent they will arrive by Deep Strike and place them in Reserve. No one has shown any permission to place a unit in Reserve. They just keep spouting "In order to Deep Strike you must be in Reserve but the other requirements don' matter."
Implied permission. You are told to take them oiff the board and deep strike them using ALL the rules for deep strike. So yes, technically you are suppose to do it in the following order...
Harness warp charges for goi Dtw
Remove gate unit from the board
Notify opponent that they are going into reserves
Notify opponent they will be deep striking
Notify opponent they arrive immediately
(Proceed with rest of deep strike, then psychic phase)
Happyjew wrote: Except as proven, you cannot use all the rules for deep strike, and since it destroys that argument it keeps getting hand waved.
Inability to understand the rules does not equal "since it destroys the argument, it keeps getting hand waved".
Per Gate, the unit is removed from the table and returns immediately using the rules for Deep Strike. Per Deep Strike, the unit starts in Reserves (achieved via being removed from the table), rolls to arrive on the following turn (achieved via being directed to arrive immediately), place one model as a marker, roll to scatter, etc.. Nothing gets "hand waved".
Seriously though, because goi says to deep strike the unit, it implies permission to place that unit into deep strike reserves, despite it not being the right time to place units into reserve.
Happyjew wrote: Except as proven, you cannot use all the rules for deep strike, and since it destroys that argument it keeps getting hand waved.
Inability to understand the rules does not equal "since it destroys the argument, it keeps getting hand waved".
Per Gate, the unit is removed from the table and returns immediately using the rules for Deep Strike. Per Deep Strike, the unit starts in Reserves (achieved via being removed from the table), rolls to arrive on the following turn (achieved via being directed to arrive immediately), place one model as a marker, roll to scatter, etc.. Nothing gets "hand waved".
SJ
And you still have not shown permission to override all models must have the Deep Strike special rule.
It tells you the models are placed using the rules for deep strike. It does not tell you the models count as coming from reserves [see conjuration psychic powers for example..]
further, going to reserves is not immediately being placed on the table.
being removed from the table does not mean the models are in reserves, and nothing in GoI states they go into reserves or count as being in reserves. This is not implied by the rules, it is being made up by some posters in this thread. Not only made up but then the restrictions on the rest of what would be invoked ie units must have deep strike usr, units must have begun game in resreves, etc is then hand waved away with again no actual rules support.
Deep strike does not = deep strike reserves as has been proven in this thread.
being removed from the table does not mean you are in reserves, as has been proven in this thread.
and going from table>remove from play>reserves>back to table breaks the RAW of GoI which requires you to be placed immediately, not immediately from reserved but immediately after being removed from the table.
There are no rules that allow you to go to reserves, and no one has actually put forth a single rules based point that the unit does in fact go to reserves, or counts as arriving from reserves. Claiming "implied" does not make a rule.
Happyjew wrote: Except as proven, you cannot use all the rules for deep strike, and since it destroys that argument it keeps getting hand waved.
Inability to understand the rules does not equal "since it destroys the argument, it keeps getting hand waved".
Per Gate, the unit is removed from the table and returns immediately using the rules for Deep Strike. Per Deep Strike, the unit starts in Reserves (achieved via being removed from the table), rolls to arrive on the following turn (achieved via being directed to arrive immediately), place one model as a marker, roll to scatter, etc.. Nothing gets "hand waved".
SJ
And you still have not shown permission to override all models must have the Deep Strike special rule.
Goi tells you to deep strike the unit. Specific is greater than general, codex is greater than brb, goi implies permission to D's w/out the usr by implying that it gives the unit the ds usr. If it wasn't meant to ds none ds units, then it would include a restriction.
Bkaktoof, feel free to reenroll yourself in English 101,where you can figure out how to use a dictionary to look up definitions of words you don't know.
"Using all the rules for deep strike" means "use all the rules for deep strike". It then gives you a few new rules to use in conjunction with those listed rules. Goi telling you to deep strike the unit implies that it gives the unit the ds usr for the duration of the power, which is how non ds units are able to ds with goi, like centurions.
Here's the thing: if we all ran GoI like some of you want, GoI would not work. Yet, when we run GoI is the rules are actually written, then GoI works fine. I've been advocating for using GoI as written, in which it works fine. I've also been advocating for using RoT as written, in which again it works fine. And finally, I've been advocating for using GoI + RoT as written, in which there are no conflicts so therefore it works fine.
Any point you bring up to try and debunk the interaction between GoI and RoT causes failures in the throughout the rule set, yet simply following the rules as written presents no such issue.
Keep arguing all you want, and even feel free to house rule it if that makes you feel better; however, per the rules as written GoI + RoT works just fine.
Happyjew wrote: Except as proven, you cannot use all the rules for deep strike, and since it destroys that argument it keeps getting hand waved.
Inability to understand the rules does not equal "since it destroys the argument, it keeps getting hand waved".
Per Gate, the unit is removed from the table and returns immediately using the rules for Deep Strike. Per Deep Strike, the unit starts in Reserves (achieved via being removed from the table), rolls to arrive on the following turn (achieved via being directed to arrive immediately), place one model as a marker, roll to scatter, etc.. Nothing gets "hand waved".
SJ
And you still have not shown permission to override all models must have the Deep Strike special rule.
Goi tells you to deep strike the unit. Specific is greater than general, codex is greater than brb, goi implies permission to D's w/out the usr by implying that it gives the unit the ds usr. If it wasn't meant to ds none ds units, then it would include a restriction.
Bkaktoof, feel free to reenroll yourself in English 101,where you can figure out how to use a dictionary to look up definitions of words you don't know.
"Using all the rules for deep strike" means "use all the rules for deep strike". It then gives you a few new rules to use in conjunction with those listed rules. Goi telling you to deep strike the unit implies that it gives the unit the ds usr for the duration of the power, which is how non ds units are able to ds with goi, like centurions.
Implied permission is not RAW permission. If you are claiming that something is RAW, then the rule needs to you know, actually be written.
siege2142 wrote: Except with the rules being a permissive ruleset, it makes it raw.
No, because RAW means Rules as Written. Since it is not written that the unit gains the Deep Strike rule, there is no permission to give them the Deep Strike rules.
Basic vs advanced, page 13. Basic rules are rules all models have to follow, and advanced rules always override the base rules. Goi is an advanced rule, and as such overrides the basic rule of needing the ds usr.
Again, you are claiming RAW, meaning the written rule must exist. Yet you keep stating "implied" permission exists. Meaning it cannot be a written permission.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They are also more specific.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This specific power is also in the grey knights codex, which overrules the brb
I have to interject, I'm not sure either way on GW's intent on this and I do appreciate both sides including implied permission which is quite often GW believes is express enough, but these assertions your making over this and the other thread are grating on me.
There is no such thing as 'more advanced', and they are only more specific in regards to what they specifically tell you; The rule does not mention giving the DSUSR, or that you do not meet the requirements to DS so it is very much NOT specific in that respect and it doesn't mention either of those things.
Again, Codex overrules the BRB in the rules which it is concerned with, it can not 'override' something it never mentions. The rule never mentions skipping the requirements for having to DS, while it may do that I believe the point in the thread has got to this; If you believe the rules do allow you to skip the requirements it means you should also be skipping everything around those rule - including it working in conjunction with GoI&SoF combo, if not your just picking and choosing which bits of the DS rules to apply.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They are also more specific.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This specific power is also in the grey knights codex, which overrules the brb
That isnt actually a rule thought. The rule is approximately "advanced overrides basic"
There is no such concept as "more advanced" in the rules There is no such rule as "codex overrules the BRB"
RoT is not more specific. You can tell this because it does not *specify* that t applies to units outside of the detachment that are in a combined reserves unit with the NSF unit.
Happyjew wrote: Except as proven, you cannot use all the rules for deep strike, and since it destroys that argument it keeps getting hand waved.
Inability to understand the rules does not equal "since it destroys the argument, it keeps getting hand waved".
Per Gate, the unit is removed from the table and returns immediately using the rules for Deep Strike. Per Deep Strike, the unit starts in Reserves (achieved via being removed from the table), rolls to arrive on the following turn (achieved via being directed to arrive immediately), place one model as a marker, roll to scatter, etc.. Nothing gets "hand waved".
SJ
And you still have not shown permission to override all models must have the Deep Strike special rule.
Goi tells you to deep strike the unit. Specific is greater than general, codex is greater than brb, goi implies permission to D's w/out the usr by implying that it gives the unit the ds usr. If it wasn't meant to ds none ds units, then it would include a restriction.
Bkaktoof, feel free to reenroll yourself in English 101,where you can figure out how to use a dictionary to look up definitions of words you don't know.
"Using all the rules for deep strike" means "use all the rules for deep strike". It then gives you a few new rules to use in conjunction with those listed rules. Goi telling you to deep strike the unit implies that it gives the unit the ds usr for the duration of the power, which is how non ds units are able to ds with goi, like centurions.
you should really be careful insulting 'english' skills.
firstly the rule does not say "all the rules for deep strike" it says "using the rules for deep strike" you have added a word there, I believe in this mythical english I should learn adding words to things you quote is considered incorrect.
secondly look up what immediately means.
thirdly figure out if you tells you to use the rules for deep strike, or the rules for arriving by deep strike reserves, or the rules for reserves. Only one of those is stated, bust as you know english better than me maybe you can tell me which one.
BRB wrote:When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
Arriving from Reserves by Deep Strike means you must have been in Deep Strike Reserve.
Arriving by Deep Strike from a transport, a Gate or a Veil of Darkness does not mean you had to be in Deep Strike Reserve.
So you agree that rule would apply if they (GoI, VoD, etc) were in Reserves? Just checking. Please just say "Yes" or "No"
No, they would not. ("remove the target and his unit from the board")
Kriswall wrote: I would still argue general versus advanced. The GoI rule tells us to remove them from the board and then immediately use the Deep Strike rules to have them arrive.
The Deep Strike rules seem to require placing the models/units in Deep Strike Reserves.
GoI says off the table. DS says Deep Strike Reserves. Advanced versus General. Off the table wins. Off the table =/= Deep Strike Reserves.
Actually, by your argument, Off the Table = Deep Strike Reserves if the unit is returning to the Table via Deep Strike. Off the Table can = On-Going Reserves if not returning via Deep Strike, or if a Mishap occurs during Deep Strike. Off the Tabke also = removed as a casualty.
Off the table = Off the table, as passengers in transports. Is that part of any of the above? No.
GoI, VoD = Off the Table
=/= Deep Strike Reserves
=/= On-Going Reserves
=/= removed as a casualty
On Skies of Fury and Reserves, by following the rules as written, an unit embarked on a Zooming or Swooping Transport may disembark via Deep Strike at any point along the line of movement of the Transport. What does this mean? This means the unit disembarking is arriving via Deep Strike, and therefore qualifies for any benefit that require arriving from Deep Strike.
Agreed, it qualifies for all the rules found in:
"Arriving by Deep Strike" Done.
No need to get more complicated and add implications that do not exist:
jeffersonian000 wrote: How does the unit bypass the Reservs requirement? Skies of Fury grants implied permission.
No, where? Point out the actual phrase saying so, (that is not the phrase i have just explained above...)
Deep Strike (aka, Deep Strike Reserves) =/= Reserves.
Again, GW wrote these rules, and have yet to errata or FAQ any changes. At the moment, arriving by Deep Strike and using the rules for Deep Strike is exactly the same as Deep Striking via the Deep Strike USR.
SJ
As i have shown many times in this thread and others:
Being in Deep Strike Reserves =/= arriving by Deep Strike. Fact 1
Deep Striking Units =/= Unit arriving by Deep Strike. Fact 2
Reserves = Deep Strike Reserves. RaW: "When placing the unit in Reserve, (...) arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)"
And very lastly, yet again, you fail to answer to most important question "and since it destroys that argument it keeps getting hand waved":
Here is a piece of Deep Strike RaW:
They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike
Have i put enough emphasis on the rule that you cannot possibly be following if you are using ALL the rules for Deep Strike?
Rather than simply accepting that all you need it the rules from:
"Arriving by Deep Strike".
You follow those rules, and that is it. Done, no plot holes, no broken restrictions, no rules breaking (Which your interpretations does.)
You are right, it never says all the rules, it just says using the rules for deep strike... Which means we obviously don't use all of them and should pick and choose which ones we want to ignore, instead of using the power to see which ones we ignore.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Please give me one example of a unit in Deep Strike Reserve that does not arrive by Deep Strike. Just one.
SJ
BATac Marines in a Drop Pod.
Both units go into Deep Strike Reserves, only the Drop Pod Deep Strikes.
Ooooh here we go, this ties into the Purifier/Drop Pod combo... which happens is obviously still being debated in a thread on this same page. Arguably the BATac marines HAVE arrived by Deepstrike, not a nebulous off the board undefined zone.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Please give me one example of a unit in Deep Strike Reserve that does not arrive by Deep Strike. Just one.
SJ
BATac Marines in a Drop Pod.
Both units go into Deep Strike Reserves, only the Drop Pod Deep Strikes.
Ooooh here we go, this ties into the Purifier/Drop Pod combo... which happens is obviously still being debated in a thread on this same page. Arguably the BATac marines HAVE arrived by Deepstrike, not a nebulous off the board undefined zone.
Not really, as that is a different discussion. That is whether or not the Combined Unit rule allows the Pod to come on with the Purifiers. Additionally, while it can be argued, the BA have demonstrably not arrived by Deep Strike, as you follow none of the Deep Strike rules.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Please give me one example of a unit in Deep Strike Reserve that does not arrive by Deep Strike. Just one.
SJ
BATac Marines in a Drop Pod.
Both units go into Deep Strike Reserves, only the Drop Pod Deep Strikes.
This. Any Unit without the Deep Strike USR embarked upon a Drop Pod.
RaW: "Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves." This rule clearly defines the Drop pod as being held in Deep Strike Reserves.
This rule clearly defines the Unit embarked as being held in Deep Strike Reserves.
The Pod can and will follow ALL the rules found in "Deep Strike", including starting the game in reserves, etc, but the passengers cannot follow the rules for arriving by Deep Strike as they must disembarkonly.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Please give me one example of a unit in Deep Strike Reserve that does not arrive by Deep Strike. Just one.
SJ
BATac Marines in a Drop Pod.
Both units go into Deep Strike Reserves, only the Drop Pod Deep Strikes.
Incorrect. Both units go into Deep Strike Reserves, both units arrive by Deep Strike. Please actually read the rules before responding.
To answer my own question: there are no units that do not arrive by Deep Strike from Deep Strike Reserves, because per RAW Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves are the same thing.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Please give me one example of a unit in Deep Strike Reserve that does not arrive by Deep Strike. Just one.
SJ
BATac Marines in a Drop Pod.
Both units go into Deep Strike Reserves, only the Drop Pod Deep Strikes.
Incorrect. Both units go into Deep Strike Reserves, both units arrive by Deep Strike. Please actually read the rules before responding.
To answer my own question: there are no units that do not arrive by Deep Strike from Deep Strike Reserves, because per RAW Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves are the same thing.
SJ
Really?
Please explain how the BATac Marines are arriving by Deep Strike (Scattering, mishaping, etc...)? Because clearly they are not.
Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reseves = arriving by Deep Strike, per the Deep Strike rules. Your continued ignoring of that fact shows that you are either intentionally trolling this thread, or are lacking in the most basic understanding of language. And since you are able to communicate via writing, then I must conclude that you are being willfully obtuse in order to incite argument. To that sir, I name thee Troll.
1. Don't make a statement without backing it up. - You have to give premises for a conclusive statement; without this, there can be no debate. For more detail on how to actually create a logically supported conclusion, please read this article on how to have an intelligent rules debate.
1a. Don't say that someone is wrong, instead you explain why you think their opinion is wrong. Criticize the opinion, not the person.
1a also applies to you in this very case:
jeffersonian000 wrote: Your continued ignoring of that fact shows that you are either intentionally trolling this thread, or are lacking in the most basic understanding of language. And since you are able to communicate via writing, then I must conclude that you are being willfully obtuse in order to incite argument. To that sir, I name thee Troll.
SJ
Automatically Appended Next Post: Let me follow those exact Tenets and show you how you are completely incorrect:
From the rule-book, two direct quotes:
"Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves."
Arriving by Deep Strike Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows: • First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter. • Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.
Two (incontestable) rules: 1) Units embarked upon (Drop Pods) must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. 2) Arriving by Deep Strike: deploy them as follows: • First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table.
The Unit aforementioned in 1, embarked upon the Drop Pod and in Deep Strike Reserves cannot possibly be Arriving by Deep Strike: "First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table"
Thank you for a completely pointless argument, and any further refuting of the above two rules, found as they are in the rulebook, will not be taken notice of.
The very first sentence of the Deep Strike USR (after the fluff) is...
"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve."
So... if I'm told to remove a unit from the table and then immediately have it arrive back on the table using the rules for Deep Strike, then that unit had better have started the game in Reserve and all have the Deep Strike USR. If they started on the table or don't have the Deep Strike USR, from a strict rules reading, they are unable to Deep Strike. GoI would remove them from the table and then... ??? Leave them there? They're unable to Deep Strike per the Deep Strike rules.
This is clearly not the intention. The written rules appear broken. Agree with your friends how to play this and...
Might be time to kill this argument. 130+ posts and no consensus? People are pulling the old "learn to read" and "you violated Tenant 1a" things. That's a sure sign of impending Mod lock.
Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reseves = arriving by Deep Strike, per the Deep Strike rules. Your continued ignoring of that fact shows that you are either intentionally trolling this thread, or are lacking in the most basic understanding of language. And since you are able to communicate via writing, then I must conclude that you are being willfully obtuse in order to incite argument. To that sir, I name thee Troll.
SJ
the above post is incorrect.
Reserves is a separate rule from DS.
there are many ways to arrive onto the table from reserves, and DSing is one of them. So is moving on the board from your deployment edge, so is outflanking.
It is possible to arrive from deep strike reserves, be deep striking, but not "arrive by deep strike" nor have the DS special rule within the [very poorly written] rules.
here are some examples.
There is a squad inside a Drop Pod. The Drop Pod has the DS special rule. The squad does not. The squad has permission to embark inside the drop pod while in reserves. This is known as deep strike reserves, because the pod will be arriving by deep strike and the squad will be in it. Therefore both are in DS reserves.
You roll for the arrival of the combined Pod+Unit embarked with 1 roll, the pod is placed on the table and follows the rules for "arriving by deepstrike". The unit inside is not following those rules, and is not stated anywhere as arriving by deepstrike- therefore only the pod is arriving by deepstrike.
The pod does not mishap and has a final landing spot, the unit inside disembarks.
The unit inside [and the pod] both arrived from deep strike reserves [which is a form of reserves]
only the pod following the rules detailed in "arriving by deep strike" the unit inside did arrive with the pod, and is deep striking- but did not "arrive by deepstrike" [yes the rules in the rulebook are poorly written]
The very first sentence of the Deep Strike USR (after the fluff) is...
"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve."
So... if I'm told to remove a unit from the table and then immediately have it arrive back on the table using the rules for Deep Strike, then that unit had better have started the game in Reserve and all have the Deep Strike USR. If they started on the table or don't have the Deep Strike USR, from a strict rules reading, they are unable to Deep Strike. GoI would remove them from the table and then... ??? Leave them there? They're unable to Deep Strike per the Deep Strike rules.
In the 10th post in I suggested how these rules work. But trying to explain it when people put their hands on their ears and go "na na na na" really does not help the discussion. I will try to make it as clear as i can as i know you read and try to understand things logically like i do. With a chance of changing one's mind if the argument is good.
BlackTalos wrote: Gate of Infinity allows you to remove a Unit and place it following the rules: "Arriving by Deep Strike"
Was in my very first post.
All of these rules, Veil of Darkness, Gate of Infinity, Skies of Fury, Skyleap?, etc will all have a very similar wording to: Unit X "arrives (...) using the rules for Deep Strike" (<GoI) "deploy the squad as if it were deep striking onto that point." (<SoF)>
Which, IMHO, never state that "the unit must Deep Strike", "follow all the rules for DS", etc. So why is it always inferred that all the Rules from the Deep Strike USR must be followed? I mean, said unit never actually has Deep Strike right?
So when you arrive/deploy/move/etc by Deep Strike, you follow the rules found under the the actual 'Action' of Deep Striking:
Arriving by Deep Strike Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
And everything included thereafter.
Kriswall wrote: Might be time to kill this argument. 130+ posts and no consensus? People are pulling the old "learn to read" and "you violated Tenant 1a" things. That's a sure sign of impending Mod lock.
That's because you're not here having a civilised argument with us, where reason listens to reason and opinions / interpretations are changed with concrete proof and logical support
But i do agree that short of a lock, the opinions are so "basic" that trying to re-invent the (GW) Wheel is hard ! >
Automatically Appended Next Post: And we can further support this discussion with the new rules for the Veil of darkness:
"The bearer of the Veil of darkness has the Deep Strike special rule. In addition, once per game, (...)immediately arrive anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike"
So, removing yourself and "immediately arrive" by Deep Strike is now In addition to having Deep Strike rules. Could that be because they are a different thing?
I mean if all they needed was to be removed and go into Deep Strike Reserves, would they need to specify arrival "using Deep Strike rules"?
So when your unit is gating your letting your opponent know the unit is in reserves and arriving by deep strike?
the first sentence however is:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.
And you have permission to do that for a unit that doesn't havedeepstrike with goi, because goi says to deep strike them with all the rules for deep striking. There is nothing broken. Just a power giving models the ability to do something they couldn't otherwise do.
it tells you to have them immediately arrive with the rules for deep striking.
regardless the point is it does not tell you they count as coming from/going to reserves, or arriving with the rules from deep strike reserves which is the point of the thread.
models using Gate are not arriving from deep strike reserves.
They are too, because gate specifically tells you to use all the rules for deep striking, then goes on to list specific exceptions to the rule. Not one of those exceptions is not being placed into deep strikereserves., in fact, one of the exceptions makes it blatantly obvious that they have to go into deep strike reserves, because if they didn't, they would have NO WHERE to immediately arrive FROM.
blaktoof wrote: can you please list the exceptions you think it states, as they are stated in the rule for GoI.
as to the second part, you are told to remove them from the table and they immediately arrive [from off the table] using the rules for deep strike.
they would arrive from off the table.
My models embarked in a vehicle are off the table, they are not coming from reserves when they disembark.
Yes but the rules state that if your are placing transports in reserve you must place BOTH the unit and transport in the reserves, and so on with Deep Strike reserves.
Exceptions: arrives immediately, can deep strike despite not having deep strike use (not explicit, but permission is given none the less). More exceptions to come when I have my rulebook.
greytalon666 wrote: And you have permission to do that for a unit that doesn't havedeepstrike with goi, because goi says to deep strike them with all the rules for deep striking. There is nothing broken. Just a power giving models the ability to do something they couldn't otherwise do.
So i also hope that you can find permission in Gate of Infinity to cover this:
"They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike."
you know, something like 'it's okay if they don't start the game in reserves'
greytalon666 wrote: And you have permission to do that for a unit that doesn't havedeepstrike with goi, because goi says to deep strike them with all the rules for deep striking. There is nothing broken. Just a power giving models the ability to do something they couldn't otherwise do.
So i also hope that you can find permission in Gate of Infinity to cover this:
"They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike."
you know, something like 'it's okay if they don't start the game in reserves'
The fact that the power manifests and then requires the Deep Strike means that they don't have to start in Reserves.
Which has been said before, and you've ignored it before, so you'll just ignore this too.
greytalon666 wrote: And you have permission to do that for a unit that doesn't havedeepstrike with goi, because goi says to deep strike them with all the rules for deep striking. There is nothing broken. Just a power giving models the ability to do something they couldn't otherwise do.
So i also hope that you can find permission in Gate of Infinity to cover this:
"They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike."
you know, something like 'it's okay if they don't start the game in reserves'
The fact that the power manifests and then requires the Deep Strike means that they don't have to start in Reserves.
Which has been said before, and you've ignored it before, so you'll just ignore this too.
Excellent debating tactics.
Being 'required' to Deep strike does not, however, allow you to bypass restrictions. At least not without required wording. I am not ignoring your comment, i am debunking it. As i have been doing for a while.
Therefore the interpretation that you only use "Arriving by Deep Strike" from the Deep Strike rules is correct, unless you would like to disprove this?
Gate of infinity: "arrives (...) using the rules for Deep Strike" Resolution: Use the rules in "Arriving by Deep Strike".
Problem solved.
No need to bypass "the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule", nor "and the unit must start the game in Reserve", or even "When placing the unit in Reserve".
Because GoI is not even able to in the first place...
"Remove the target from the board, then it immedriatly arrives anywhere using the rules for deep strike".
Seems pretty clear that when it tells you to remove the unit from the board, it is to put them into deep strike reserves. There is no magical "off the board" zone in the game. There is casualties, reserves, deep strike reserves, but no "off the board".
greytalon666 wrote: "Remove the target from the board, then it immedriatly arrives anywhere using the rules for deep strike".
Seems pretty clear that when it tells you to remove the unit from the board, it is to put them into deep strike reserves. There is no magical "off the board" zone in the game. There is casualties, reserves, deep strike reserves, but no "off the board".
So then where are embarked units?
Furthermore, if it was pretty clear that you put them in Deep Strike Reserves there wouldn't be a 10+ page discussion.
greytalon666 wrote: "Remove the target from the board, then it immedriatly arrives anywhere using the rules for deep strike".
Seems pretty clear that when it tells you to remove the unit from the board, it is to put them into deep strike reserves. There is no magical "off the board" zone in the game. There is casualties, reserves, deep strike reserves, but no "off the board".
So then where are embarked units?
In the transport. We have rules to measure to them. You can't physically put them in the transport, so the only option to have the game continue is to take the models off the board, but the unit is demonstrably on the board.
greytalon666 wrote: "Remove the target from the board, then it immedriatly arrives anywhere using the rules for deep strike".
Seems pretty clear that when it tells you to remove the unit from the board, it is to put them into deep strike reserves. There is no magical "off the board" zone in the game. There is casualties, reserves, deep strike reserves, but no "off the board".
Okay then, next time you decide to embark onto a vehicle, make sure you roll for reserves!
More seriously, there are 3 types of "not on the board:
- Casualties
- Reserves (some of which may be arriving by Deep Strike)
- Off the board (Transports, Fortifications, GoI and other such rules)
The third category is where passengers in a Stormraven are, and come from, upon using the "Skies of Fury" special rule. It is impossible for them to be in any form of Reserves, as "Skies of Fury" does not contain any "removing" wording...
BlackTalos wrote: The third category is where passengers in a Stormraven are, and come from, upon using the "Skies of Fury" special rule. It is impossible for them to be in any form of Reserves, as "Skies of Fury" does not contain any "removing" wording...
Incorrect. The passengers in a Stormraven are in the Stormraven. The models aren't on the board but we know the unit is on the board.
Skies of Fury does not involve Reserves because, as you said, they aren't removed from the board.
rigeld2 wrote: In the transport. We have rules to measure to them. You can't physically put them in the transport, so the only option to have the game continue is to take the models off the board, but the unit is demonstrably on the board.
Using the same justification, where are the models using GoI?
"In GoI".
'You can't physically put them in the Gate, so the only option to have the game continue is to take the models off the board, but the unit is demonstrably on the board.'
Or was this incorrect then?
jeffersonian000 wrote: As written, a unit that Gates is in play, is removed from the table while remaining in play, is returned to the table immediately so as not to disrupt play
rigeld2 wrote: In the transport. We have rules to measure to them. You can't physically put them in the transport, so the only option to have the game continue is to take the models off the board, but the unit is demonstrably on the board.
Using the same justification, where are the models using GoI?
"In GoI".
'You can't physically put them in the Gate, so the only option to have the game continue is to take the models off the board, but the unit is demonstrably on the board.'
Sure, if you ignore the rest of the rules for GoI.
Or was this incorrect then?
jeffersonian000 wrote: As written, a unit that Gates is in play, is removed from the table while remaining in play, is returned to the table immediately so as not to disrupt play
Since he's on my ignore list I don't know the context of the statement and refuse to comment further on someone else's argument.
BlackTalos wrote: The third category is where passengers in a Stormraven are, and come from, upon using the "Skies of Fury" special rule. It is impossible for them to be in any form of Reserves, as "Skies of Fury" does not contain any "removing" wording...
Incorrect. The passengers in a Stormraven are in the Stormraven. The models aren't on the board but we know the unit is on the board.
Skies of Fury does not involve Reserves because, as you said, they aren't removed from the board.
So...... "deploy the squad as if it were deep striking onto that point." Does not use any rules from Deep Striking?
I mean the entire point of the "where are they" argument was because we were discussing Deep Strike Reserves, an extension of having to follow the Deep Strike rules.
BlackTalos wrote: The third category is where passengers in a Stormraven are, and come from, upon using the "Skies of Fury" special rule. It is impossible for them to be in any form of Reserves, as "Skies of Fury" does not contain any "removing" wording...
Incorrect. The passengers in a Stormraven are in the Stormraven. The models aren't on the board but we know the unit is on the board.
Skies of Fury does not involve Reserves because, as you said, they aren't removed from the board.
So...... "deploy the squad as if it were deep striking onto that point." Does not use any rules from Deep Striking?
Is that what I said? Oh... nope, it sure isn't.
I mean the entire point of the "where are they" argument was because we were discussing Deep Strike Reserves, an extension of having to follow the Deep Strike rules.
It's actually because GoI says to remove the unit from the board. Skies of Fury does not. It's almost like I pointed that out explicitly.
Oh - I see that I did. It's underlined in case you missed it.
rigeld2 wrote: In the transport. We have rules to measure to them. You can't physically put them in the transport, so the only option to have the game continue is to take the models off the board, but the unit is demonstrably on the board.
Using the same justification, where are the models using GoI?
"In GoI".
'You can't physically put them in the Gate, so the only option to have the game continue is to take the models off the board, but the unit is demonstrably on the board.'
Sure, if you ignore the rest of the rules for GoI.
", remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike."
That is all i have.
"arrives (...) using the rules for Deep Strike" and
"deploy the squad as if it were deep striking onto that point." Are completely different methods of arrival then?
jeffersonian000 wrote: As written, a unit that Gates is in play, is removed from the table while remaining in play, is returned to the table immediately so as not to disrupt play
Since he's on my ignore list I don't know the context of the statement and refuse to comment further on someone else's argument.
Sure, sorry, you were kind of working on the same arguments a few pages back.... I though this was a form of agreement.
rigeld2 wrote: In the transport. We have rules to measure to them. You can't physically put them in the transport, so the only option to have the game continue is to take the models off the board, but the unit is demonstrably on the board.
Using the same justification, where are the models using GoI?
"In GoI".
'You can't physically put them in the Gate, so the only option to have the game continue is to take the models off the board, but the unit is demonstrably on the board.'
Sure, if you ignore the rest of the rules for GoI.
", remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike."
That is all i have.
"arrives (...) using the rules for Deep Strike" and
"deploy the squad as if it were deep striking onto that point." Are completely different methods of arrival then?
greytalon666 wrote: Goi tells you to remove the unit from the board, thus making it go into reserves, thus triggering NSF.
Skies of fury does not trigger NSF, because you are never removed from the board.
Please show me a rule that states that removing a unit from the board puts said unit in reserves. In fact you don't even need to quote it, just give me a page number that specifically says something along the lines of "When a unit is removed from the table it is placed in Reserves."
greytalon666 wrote: Goi tells you to remove the unit from the board, thus making it go into reserves, thus triggering NSF.
Skies of fury does not trigger NSF, because you are never removed from the board.
Please show me a rule that states that removing a unit from the board puts said unit in reserves. In fact you don't even need to quote it, just give me a page number that specifically says something along the lines of "When a unit is removed from the table it is placed in Reserves."
The Deep Strike rules that have been quoted, in this thread, repeatedly.
I'm sorry rigeld, I'm having trouble finding where in the Deep Strike rules it says that if a model is removed from the board place it in reserves. Can you please clarify where in the Deep Strike rule this is stated?
Happyjew wrote: I'm sorry rigeld, I'm having trouble finding where in the Deep Strike rules it says that if a model is removed from the board place it in reserves. Can you please clarify where in the Deep Strike rule this is stated?
Spoiler:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.
GoI gives permission to ignore the "start the game" requirement (inherent in the fact that it can be cast after the start of the game) but does not conflict with the rest of the rule. Therefore the rest of the rule must apply.
Happyjew wrote: I'm sorry rigeld, I'm having trouble finding where in the Deep Strike rules it says that if a model is removed from the board place it in reserves. Can you please clarify where in the Deep Strike rule this is stated?
Spoiler:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.
GoI gives permission to ignore the "start the game" requirement (inherent in the fact that it can be cast after the start of the game) but does not conflict with the rest of the rule. Therefore the rest of the rule must apply.
Which does not answer my question.
Where in the rules does it say if you remove a model from the table it goes into reserves?
I'm asking in general, as people are making the claim that models not on the table are either dead or in reserves (which is provably false).
Happyjew wrote: I'm sorry rigeld, I'm having trouble finding where in the Deep Strike rules it says that if a model is removed from the board place it in reserves. Can you please clarify where in the Deep Strike rule this is stated?
Spoiler:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.
GoI gives permission to ignore the "start the game" requirement (inherent in the fact that it can be cast after the start of the game) but does not conflict with the rest of the rule. Therefore the rest of the rule must apply.
Which does not answer my question.
Where in the rules does it say if you remove a model from the table it goes into reserves?
I'm asking in general, as people are making the claim that models not on the table are either dead or in reserves (which is provably false).
It's not really provably false. The only place people have come up with it being incorrect is vehicles, which is wrong.
Embarking does not remove the unit from the board - it removes the models from the board.
Spoiler:
When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported.
Emphasis mine. If the unit wasn't on the board, it wouldn't be transported. The unit is provably on the board.
Regardless, your question is impossible to answer as it's too general.
Happyjew wrote: I'm sorry rigeld, I'm having trouble finding where in the Deep Strike rules it says that if a model is removed from the board place it in reserves. Can you please clarify where in the Deep Strike rule this is stated?
Spoiler:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.
GoI gives permission to ignore the "start the game" requirement (inherent in the fact that it can be cast after the start of the game) but does not conflict with the rest of the rule. Therefore the rest of the rule must apply.
Which does not answer my question.
Where in the rules does it say if you remove a model from the table it goes into reserves?
I'm asking in general, as people are making the claim that models not on the table are either dead or in reserves (which is provably false).
It's not really provably false. The only place people have come up with it being incorrect is vehicles, which is wrong.
Embarking does not remove the unit from the board - it removes the models from the board.
Spoiler:
When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported.
Emphasis mine. If the unit wasn't on the board, it wouldn't be transported. The unit is provably on the board.
Regardless, your question is impossible to answer as it's too general.
Spoiler:
When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported.
So per the rule you quoted, you remove the unit from the table. But you don't remove the unit from the table? Please elaborate. I embark a squad of Tac Marines onto a Rhino. Do I remove the unit from the table, yes or no?
When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported.
So per the rule you quoted, you remove the unit from the table. But you don't remove the unit from the table? Please elaborate. I embark a squad of Tac Marines onto a Rhino. Do I remove the unit from the table, yes or no?
Yes, but the unit is still on the table. Demonstrably.
Which means that the only thing removed from the table was the models.
Of course the models were removed from the table. Units are composed of models, if you remove the unit, logically you must remove the models. However, since I removed the unit from the table (as per the rules), where are they - casualties, or in reserves, as I have been told that these are the only two options for models removed.
When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported.
So per the rule you quoted, you remove the unit from the table. But you don't remove the unit from the table? Please elaborate. I embark a squad of Tac Marines onto a Rhino. Do I remove the unit from the table, yes or no?
Yes, but the unit is still on the table. Demonstrably.
Which means that the only thing removed from the table was the models.
The rule explicitly states the unit has been removed from the table. Please explain where they are.
The models have been removed from the board, but the UNIT is still on the board.
When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported.
When you remove a UNIT from play for GoI, it has to go somewhere... Which is reserves, following the rules for deep striking, which is what we have to due to the "following (all) the rules for deep striking".
Note that it doesn't say following "some" of the rules for deep striking. There is no precedence for following "some" of the rules, but not others. There are precedences, however, for the word "all" not being included in wordings, but still having to follow "all" the rules. So, please, show me, page number/paragraph number, where it says that I don't put the models into deep strike reserve when I gate.
greytalon666 wrote: The models have been removed from the board, but the UNIT is still on the board.
When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported.
When you remove a UNIT from play for GoI, it has to go somewhere... Which is reserves, following the rules for deep striking, which is what we have to due to the "following (all) the rules for deep striking".
Note that it doesn't say following "some" of the rules for deep striking. There is no precedence for following "some" of the rules, but not others. There are precedences, however, for the word "all" not being included in wordings, but still having to follow "all" the rules. So, please, show me, page number/paragraph number, where it says that I don't put the models into deep strike reserve when I gate.
First the unit is not on the board as the rules for embarking explicitly say to remove the unit from the table.
Second, if you insist on following all the rules for Deep Strike, then you must follow all the rules which include every model having the deep strike special rule, and the unit starting the game in deep strike reserve.
greytalon666 wrote: The models have been removed from the board, but the UNIT is still on the board.
When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported.
When you remove a UNIT from play for GoI, it has to go somewhere... Which is reserves, following the rules for deep striking, which is what we have to due to the "following (all) the rules for deep striking".
Note that it doesn't say following "some" of the rules for deep striking. There is no precedence for following "some" of the rules, but not others. There are precedences, however, for the word "all" not being included in wordings, but still having to follow "all" the rules. So, please, show me, page number/paragraph number, where it says that I don't put the models into deep strike reserve when I gate.
The "it " in the rule you just quoted? That's the unit. It is, explicitly, NOT on the board.
please, keep ignoring what is plainly written.
Note the second half of that statement where it says "note the unit is being transported in the transport". You removed your models when you removed the unit. Now your unit is in the transport, while your models are physically off the table due to the models not fitting physically in the transport.
Congratulations, now you know why we don't have to physically put marines in the rhino's!
Seriously, the unit is still on the board, not off in some magical place.
No, seriously, the unit is, explicitly, OFF THE BOARD. The distinction you are making does not exist in the actual rules.
So now we've proven you can be off the board, but not in reserves, your assertion is debunked.
Note it states "note"? As in make a note that they are being transported? Because the unit isn't actually on the board, as the utterly clear rule you now finally admit exists states?
rigeld2 wrote: In the transport. We have rules to measure to them. You can't physically put them in the transport, so the only option to have the game continue is to take the models off the board, but the unit is demonstrably on the board.
Using the same justification, where are the models using GoI? "In GoI". 'You can't physically put them in the Gate, so the only option to have the game continue is to take the models off the board, but the unit is demonstrably on the board.'
Sure, if you ignore the rest of the rules for GoI.
", remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike."
That is all i have. "arrives (...) using the rules for Deep Strike" and "deploy the squad as if it were deep striking onto that point." Are completely different methods of arrival then?
Not completely different, but they are different.
But they both relate to the Deep Strike USR, correct? One refers to "arriving" using DS, the other refers to "deploy" using DS, correct?
Could i try to push understanding here one step further , and get you to find both of those in the Deep Strike Rules?
Spoiler:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike. Arriving by Deep Strike Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows: • First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter. • Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit. • Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain. In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may (etc). (Copied from BRB-Digital edition)
Would the above "distinction" between the two terms ("arriving" VS "deploy" using DS) signify these rules are calling out specific sections of the Deep Strike USR? This is the part you will not agree with, but i'm curious as to why? It is logically completely sound.
Happyjew wrote: I'm sorry rigeld, I'm having trouble finding where in the Deep Strike rules it says that if a model is removed from the board place it in reserves. Can you please clarify where in the Deep Strike rule this is stated?
Spoiler:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.
GoI gives permission to ignore the "start the game" requirement (inherent in the fact that it can be cast after the start of the game) but does not conflict with the rest of the rule. Therefore the rest of the rule must apply.
Which does not answer my question.
Where in the rules does it say if you remove a model from the table it goes into reserves?
I'm asking in general, as people are making the claim that models not on the table are either dead or in reserves (which is provably false).
It's not really provably false. The only place people have come up with it being incorrect is vehicles, which is wrong. Embarking does not remove the unit from the board - it removes the models from the board.
Spoiler:
When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported.
Emphasis mine. If the unit wasn't on the board, it wouldn't be transported. The unit is provably on the board.
Regardless, your question is impossible to answer as it's too general.
As for this one, i think the emphasis was (IMHO) misplaced:
Spoiler:
When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported.
"Making a note", to me, means that it is not actually happening, so you must write it down least you forget (that even though it is not happening, it *should* be that way).
greytalon666 wrote: Note the second half of that statement where it says "note the unit is being transported in the transport". You removed your models when you removed the unit. Now your unit is in the transport, while your models are physically off the table due to the models not fitting physically in the transport.
Congratulations, now you know why we don't have to physically put marines in the rhino's!
Seriously, the unit is still on the board, not off in some magical place.
The unit most certainly isn't still on the board. It has been removed from the table and placed aside... i.e., aside from the table. The only practical reason to make a note that it is being transported is to avoid confusion with other models that are currently off the table.
But...
If you want to play the "they aren't really off the table" game, I'm up for it. With GoI, the models are really never off the table either. They are removed and immediately (with no intervening time period) placed back in a different location. If there is no period of time between when they are removed and when they are placed back on the table, how could they possibly be off the table? I'm being a little sarcastic here.
Just play it how you want. We're arguing semantics that aren't clearly defined in the rules. I'm seeing multiple instances of "implied permissions" or "implied process steps". Rules implications that aren't written down aren't rules. They are HYWPI.
Kriswall wrote: Just play it how you want. We're arguing semantics that aren't clearly defined in the rules. I'm seeing multiple instances of "implied permissions" or "implied process steps". Rules implications that aren't written down aren't rules. They are HYWPI.
I'm actually trying to keep my argument fully within the minimum amount of RaW:
Gate of Infinity RaW: "arrives (...) using the rules for Deep Strike" Skies of Fury RaW: "deploy the squad as if it were deep striking onto that point."
Both of those are calling out the DS Rule, specifically:
Spoiler:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
Arriving by Deep Strike Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.
• Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may (etc).
(Copied from BRB-Digital edition)
Conclusion:
Gate of Infinity uses all the rules found in Arriving by Deep Strike Skies of Fury uses all the bullet points in "then deploy them as follows:" (And none of the rules found after "In the Movement phase during which...")
Happyjew wrote: Of course the models were removed from the table. Units are composed of models, if you remove the unit, logically you must remove the models. However, since I removed the unit from the table (as per the rules), where are they - casualties, or in reserves, as I have been told that these are the only two options for models removed.
The unit is on the board, embarked in the vehicle, as demonstrated by the fact I can measure to it.
Continuing with your assertion that the unit isn't on the board, how do you measure to something that isn't on the board?
rigeld2 wrote: In the transport. We have rules to measure to them. You can't physically put them in the transport, so the only option to have the game continue is to take the models off the board, but the unit is demonstrably on the board.
Using the same justification, where are the models using GoI?
"In GoI".
'You can't physically put them in the Gate, so the only option to have the game continue is to take the models off the board, but the unit is demonstrably on the board.'
Sure, if you ignore the rest of the rules for GoI.
", remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike."
That is all i have.
"arrives (...) using the rules for Deep Strike" and
"deploy the squad as if it were deep striking onto that point." Are completely different methods of arrival then?
Not completely different, but they are different.
But they both relate to the Deep Strike USR, correct?
One refers to "arriving" using DS, the other refers to "deploy" using DS, correct?
Correct.
Could i try to push understanding here one step further , and get you to find both of those in the Deep Strike Rules?
Spoiler:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
Arriving by Deep Strike Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.
• Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may (etc).
(Copied from BRB-Digital edition)
Would the above "distinction" between the two terms ("arriving" VS "deploy" using DS) signify these rules are calling out specific sections of the Deep Strike USR?
This is the part you will not agree with, but i'm curious as to why? It is logically completely sound.
You're told how to deploy, specifically - you pointed it out.
Arriving requires rolling for Reserves - explicitly (a fact you've continuously ignored/hand waved). Sure, GoI means you arrive immediately, but arrive immediately from where? The only logical answer, based on the Deep Strike rules is from Reserves. Not some magic limbo that isn't defined in the rules at all and you have to invent.
As for this one, i think the emphasis was (IMHO) misplaced:
Spoiler:
When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported.
"Making a note", to me, means that it is not actually happening, so you must write it down least you forget (that even though it is not happening, it *should* be that way).
The unit isn't actually on the table? So you can't actually measure to it? Funny, the actual rules disagree with you.
greytalon666 wrote: Goi tells you to remove the unit from the board, thus making it go into reserves, thus triggering NSF.
Skies of fury does not trigger NSF, because you are never removed from the board.
it tells you to remove it form the board and immediately have it arrive.
if it is immediately arriving it couldnt go to reserves before, since then it would not be immediately arriving.
secondly it doesnt state to arrive it from deep strike reserves
thirdly it doesnt state it counts as going to reserves
fourthyly being removed from the board does not mean you go into reserves, as being removed from the board means the models are taken off the board and that is all. no other meaning. There is no rules linking being removed from the board with going into reserves.
greytalon666 wrote: Note the second half of that statement where it says "note the unit is being transported in the transport". You removed your models when you removed the unit. Now your unit is in the transport, while your models are physically off the table due to the models not fitting physically in the transport.
Congratulations, now you know why we don't have to physically put marines in the rhino's!
Seriously, the unit is still on the board, not off in some magical place.
The unit most certainly isn't still on the board. It has been removed from the table and placed aside... i.e., aside from the table. The only practical reason to make a note that it is being transported is to avoid confusion with other models that are currently off the table.
But...
If you want to play the "they aren't really off the table" game, I'm up for it. With GoI, the models are really never off the table either. They are removed and immediately (with no intervening time period) placed back in a different location. If there is no period of time between when they are removed and when they are placed back on the table, how could they possibly be off the table? I'm being a little sarcastic here.
Just play it how you want. We're arguing semantics that aren't clearly defined in the rules. I'm seeing multiple instances of "implied permissions" or "implied process steps". Rules implications that aren't written down aren't rules. They are HYWPI.
This entire line of argument has no baring on GoI. While GoI does direct the unit to be removed and immediately returned, you don't actually immediately return the entire unit; you are immediately returning the unit via Deep Strike, which follows the steps of the entire unit being in Deep Strike Reserves, one model is placed as a marker and scatters, followed by the remaining models being placed per the Deep Strike rules. In contex, the "immediate" timing effects the return by Deep Strike during that a Psychic phase rather rolling to arrive on the following Turn. Also in contex, "immediate" is not a clause that bypassed the direction to be removed from the table.
greytalon666 wrote: Goi tells you to remove the unit from the board, thus making it go into reserves, thus triggering NSF.
Skies of fury does not trigger NSF, because you are never removed from the board.
it tells you to remove it form the board and immediately have it arrive.
if it is immediately arriving it couldnt go to reserves before, since then it would not be immediately arriving.
Why? Why can something not immediate arrive from reserves? You've failed to ever cite a single rule proving that, but have made it the cornerstone of your argument.
secondly it doesnt state to arrive it from deep strike reserves
No, the Deep Strike rules that you're required to use do that.
deep strike does not follow the steps of being in deep strike reserves.
deep strike reserves is a method of entering from reserves by deepstrike.
reserves (not ongoing reserves) are models that did not begin the game deployed on the table as per the RaW under reserves.
I am starting to think many of the players who think deep strike = deep strike reserves haven't actually read the reserves rules and noticed that it is a different special rule that allows some models an alternate way to arrive from reserves if they have certain rules (Outflank, DS, infililtrate)
greytalon666 wrote: Goi tells you to remove the unit from the board, thus making it go into reserves, thus triggering NSF.
Skies of fury does not trigger NSF, because you are never removed from the board.
it tells you to remove it form the board and immediately have it arrive.
if it is immediately arriving it couldnt go to reserves before, since then it would not be immediately arriving.
Why? Why can something not immediate arrive from reserves? You've failed to ever cite a single rule proving that, but have made it the cornerstone of your argument.
secondly it doesnt state to arrive it from deep strike reserves
No, the Deep Strike rules that you're required to use do that.
why? Because it doesnt say it arrives immediately from deep strike reserves, an example of what you want is under the rules for conjuration where it explicitly states "they count as coming from reserves, and arrive by deepstrike"
it says they arrive by deepstrike, which doesn't mean they went to reserves. You have failed to cite a single rule proving they came from deep strike reserves.
rigeld2 wrote: In the transport. We have rules to measure to them. You can't physically put them in the transport, so the only option to have the game continue is to take the models off the board, but the unit is demonstrably on the board.
Using the same justification, where are the models using GoI? "In GoI". 'You can't physically put them in the Gate, so the only option to have the game continue is to take the models off the board, but the unit is demonstrably on the board.'
Sure, if you ignore the rest of the rules for GoI.
", remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike."
That is all i have. "arrives (...) using the rules for Deep Strike" and "deploy the squad as if it were deep striking onto that point." Are completely different methods of arrival then?
Not completely different, but they are different.
But they both relate to the Deep Strike USR, correct? One refers to "arriving" using DS, the other refers to "deploy" using DS, correct?
Correct.
Could i try to push understanding here one step further , and get you to find both of those in the Deep Strike Rules?
Spoiler:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike. Arriving by Deep Strike Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows: • First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter. • Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit. • Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain. In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may (etc). (Copied from BRB-Digital edition)
Would the above "distinction" between the two terms ("arriving" VS "deploy" using DS) signify these rules are calling out specific sections of the Deep Strike USR? This is the part you will not agree with, but i'm curious as to why? It is logically completely sound.
You're told how to deploy, specifically - you pointed it out. Arriving requires rolling for Reserves - explicitly (a fact you've continuously ignored/hand waved). Sure, GoI means you arrive immediately, but arrive immediately from where? The only logical answer, based on the Deep Strike rules is from Reserves. Not some magic limbo that isn't defined in the rules at all and you have to invent.
Arriving requires rolling for Reserves - agreed. I did not hand-wave it but agreed to its resolution previously:
jeffersonian000 wrote: Per RAW, the unit makes a Reserves roll to arrive by Deep Strike, Gate bypasses this requirement with its "immediately" timing. Still no conflict as the more specific rule trumps the less specific rule per RAW.
SJ
The wording "immediately" removes the requirement to roll (as specified in the rules for Reserves) You probably missed my post explaining the wording here, drowned out by many other posts:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:" It's a Deep Striking unit, correct? It's rolling to arrive as specified in the rules for Reserves, correct? (This step is skipped because of the conflict generated by GoI - namely that you immediately arrive) Which means that it's arriving from Reserves, correct? If you disagree, please explain how the unit is described as rolling to arrive as specified in the rules for Reserves, but not actually arriving from Reserves.
The underlined is incorrect. You are not reading the phrase properly. I think you missed my intention in the last post: "Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
The above does not mean: [[Roll for]] the arrival (of all Deep Striking units) as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:" Where the clause of "rolling a dice" is for the "arrival of the Unit as described in reserves". That is not the meaning of the phrase. It never relates to "Moving on from Reserve"
"Roll for (the arrival of all Deep Striking units) as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:" Is how the phrase works. You are rolling for arrival, just as is described in the Reserves rule. The phrase refers to "Arriving from Reserve", more specifically, how you roll to arrive.
TL : DR : What is "specified in the rules for Reserves"? Rolling for the arrival. Not "the method of arrival".
Why? because "and then deploy them as follows" is part of the phrase. You don't need specification of how to arrive, it's given to you. The "roll" however, is undefined: What are you rolling? 2D6? 1D10? By your interpretation we would never know, because only the arrival method "is specified". With my interpretation, however, we know exactly what to Roll: It is specified in the rules for Reserves. ("roll a D6 for each unit...")
rigeld2 wrote: Sure, GoI means you arrive immediately, but arrive immediately from where? The only logical answer, based on the Deep Strike rules is from Reserves. Not some magic limbo that isn't defined in the rules at all and you have to invent.
That is if you want to use 'all' the rules for DS, but i am only using "Arriving by Deep Strike", where the only reference to Reserves is how you roll the Dice for arrival (which we have ignored) and where you go to if you have Misshaped (Which does not imply you were there to begin with) So we are not told where we are arriving from.
Happyjew wrote: Off the table. They are not on the table (having been removed) and they are not in reserves, as you are never told to put the unit in reserve.
Though the way I usually see it actually played is the first model is moved while the rest of the unit patiently awaits teleportation in their starting location.
As for this one, i think the emphasis was (IMHO) misplaced:
Spoiler:
When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported.
"Making a note", to me, means that it is not actually happening, so you must write it down least you forget (that even though it is not happening, it *should* be that way).
The unit isn't actually on the table? So you can't actually measure to it? Funny, the actual rules disagree with you.
Happyjew wrote: Of course the models were removed from the table. Units are composed of models, if you remove the unit, logically you must remove the models. However, since I removed the unit from the table (as per the rules), where are they - casualties, or in reserves, as I have been told that these are the only two options for models removed.
The unit is on the board, embarked in the vehicle, as demonstrated by the fact I can measure to it. Continuing with your assertion that the unit isn't on the board, how do you measure to something that isn't on the board?
You are claiming that the measurement rule fails here, but i see absolutely no requirement of that Unit being "on the board":
"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting) (that is off the board), this range is measured to or from the vehicle’s hull."
I have added the underlined. It does not make the rule incorrect. There is no contradiction if the specified Unit is not on the board, you've made a Note of where it is...
blaktoof wrote: deep strike does not follow the steps of being in deep strike reserves.
It doesn't?
Spoiler:
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
So Deep Striking explicitly follows the steps for arriving from Deep Strike Reserves. It says so in that rule right there.
deep strike reserves is a method of entering from reserves by deepstrike.
Incorrect. DSR is Reserves where you will be arriving by Deep Strike.
reserves (not ongoing reserves) are models that did not begin the game deployed on the table as per the RaW under reserves.
The limitation you're asserting never actually exists in the rules
I am starting to think many of the players who think deep strike = deep strike reserves haven't actually read the reserves rules and noticed that it is a different special rule that allows some models an alternate way to arrive from reserves if they have certain rules (Outflank, DS, infililtrate)
Pot, kettle. What you're saying isn't anywhere near factual.
why? Because it doesnt say it arrives immediately from deep strike reserves, an example of what you want is under the rules for conjuration where it explicitly states "they count as coming from reserves, and arrive by deepstrike"
it says they arrive by deepstrike, which doesn't mean they went to reserves. You have failed to cite a single rule proving they came from deep strike reserves.
Except I have, and you've ignored it. That's okay - you consistently do so instead of admitting you're wrong.
Arriving by Deep Strike necessarily uses the rules for Deep Strike which requires (as in, not optional) arriving from Reserves.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BlackTalos wrote: Arriving requires rolling for Reserves - agreed. I did not hand-wave it but agreed to its resolution previously:
Great! So you agree we have to roll for Reserves. Which means that the unit must be in Reserves to roll for them. Agreed?
As for this one, i think the emphasis was (IMHO) misplaced:
Spoiler:
When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported.
"Making a note", to me, means that it is not actually happening, so you must write it down least you forget (that even though it is not happening, it *should* be that way).
The unit isn't actually on the table? So you can't actually measure to it? Funny, the actual rules disagree with you.
Happyjew wrote: Of course the models were removed from the table. Units are composed of models, if you remove the unit, logically you must remove the models. However, since I removed the unit from the table (as per the rules), where are they - casualties, or in reserves, as I have been told that these are the only two options for models removed.
The unit is on the board, embarked in the vehicle, as demonstrated by the fact I can measure to it.
Continuing with your assertion that the unit isn't on the board, how do you measure to something that isn't on the board?
You are claiming that the measurement rule fails here, but i see absolutely no requirement of that Unit being "on the board":
"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting) (that is off the board), this range is measured to or from the vehicle’s hull."
I have added the underlined. It does not make the rule incorrect. There is no contradiction if the specified Unit is not on the board, you've made a Note of where it is...
The unit isn't off the board - even in that sentence it says it's embarked. "Where is the unit?" The answer cannot be off the board, the answer must be "It's embarked in that transport." Your addition does significantly change the rule, despite your assurance that it doesn't.
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
has to do with reserves, and units arriving from reserves by deep strike.
it does not have to do with deep strike and units arriving by deep strike from deep strike reserves.
You seem to think it states deep strike= deep strike reserves, when it does not say that at all.
It is a rule on units in reserves(which gating units are not..) and them arriving from reserves by deep strike. There are many ways you can arrive from reserves if you have certain rules, one of them is deepstrike.
all the rest of your points are completely invalid and worthless statements in relation to a rules discussion as they have no bearing on rules, intended rules, or anything other than your personal feelings.
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
has to do with reserves, and units arriving from reserves by deep strike.
You said, and I quote:
deep strike does not follow the steps of being in deep strike reserves.
We know, from the above rules quote that you re-quoted, that arriving by Deep Strike (from Reserve) is sometimes call Deep Strike Reserve. Thus proving your statement untrue.
It is a rule on units in reserves(which gating units are not..) and them arriving from reserves by deep strike. There are many ways you can arrive from reserves if you have certain rules, one of them is deepstrike.
all the rest of your points are completely invalid and worthless statements in relation to a rules discussion as they have no bearing on rules, intended rules, or anything other than your personal feelings.
So this isn't valid and it's completely worthless?
Arriving by Deep Strike necessarily uses the rules for Deep Strike which requires (as in, not optional) arriving from Reserves.
Do you have something to disprove it other than "Nuh uh. It's invalid and worthless."?
rigeld2 wrote: Great! So you agree we have to roll for Reserves. Which means that the unit must be in Reserves to roll for them. Agreed?
If it had to roll for arrival, sure.
GoI removes the need for any roll, so why do we need to qualify this roll?
We know exactly what to Roll: It is specified in the rules for Reserves. ("roll a D6 for each unit...")
rigeld2 wrote: The unit isn't off the board - even in that sentence it says it's embarked. "Where is the unit?" The answer cannot be off the board, the answer must be "It's embarked in that transport." Your addition does significantly change the rule, despite your assurance that it doesn't.
Incorrect.
"Where is the unit?"
remove it from the table and place it aside
It is "placed aside" (if that does not mean "off the board" then that's also fine)
I've made a note of where it's embarked and "If (I) need to measure a range involving the embarked unit..." i also know what to do. But it is "placed aside" by RaW.
rigeld2 wrote: Great! So you agree we have to roll for Reserves. Which means that the unit must be in Reserves to roll for them. Agreed?
If it had to roll for arrival, sure.
GoI removes the need for any roll, so why do we need to qualify this roll?
We know exactly what to Roll: It is specified in the rules for Reserves. ("roll a D6 for each unit...")
It removes the need to roll, but not the reason for the rolls existence.
If you automatically hit something, does that mean you didn't have to target them?
rigeld2 wrote: The unit isn't off the board - even in that sentence it says it's embarked. "Where is the unit?" The answer cannot be off the board, the answer must be "It's embarked in that transport." Your addition does significantly change the rule, despite your assurance that it doesn't.
Incorrect.
"Where is the unit?"
remove it from the table and place it aside
It is "placed aside" (if that does not mean "off the board" then that's also fine)
I've made a note of where it's embarked and "If (I) need to measure a range involving the embarked unit..." i also know what to do. But it is "placed aside" by RaW.
The models are, necessarily (because they normally can't physically embark). But the actual unit is demonstrably on the board.
Does the unit contribute to the Psychic dice pool?
Can they fire?
Can they use area of effect rules?
The answer is yes to all of these - something that isn't true of units that are not on the board.
Blaktoof, your inability to read to actual rules is astounding. Please actually read the Deep Strike USR. You know, the rule you just made a false statement about? The rule that tells us in no uncertain terms that Deep Strike is also known as Deep Strike Reserves? You know, that point you keep missing that we keep pointing out to you and BlackTalos?
Its a very easy concept, printed in the BRB, both physical and digital. Please try to actually read the rules.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Blaktoof, your inability to read to actual rules is astounding. Please actually read the Deep Strike USR. You know, the rule you just made a false statement about? The rule that tells us in no uncertain terms that Deep Strike is also known as Deep Strike Reserves? You know, that point you keep missing that we keep pointing out to you and BlackTalos?
Its a very easy concept, printed in the BRB, both physical and digital. Please try to actually read the rules.
SJ
Deep Strike Reserves is independent from having the Deep Strike USR and being able to arrive by Deep Strike. It has been proven enough times that your inability to read 'to' actual rules is astounding.
Its a very easy concept, printed in the BRB, both physical and digital. Please try to actually read the rules.
rigeld2 wrote: The unit isn't off the board - even in that sentence it says it's embarked. "Where is the unit?" The answer cannot be off the board, the answer must be "It's embarked in that transport." Your addition does significantly change the rule, despite your assurance that it doesn't.
Incorrect. "Where is the unit?"
remove it from the table and place it aside
It is "placed aside" (if that does not mean "off the board" then that's also fine)
I've made a note of where it's embarked and "If (I) need to measure a range involving the embarked unit..." i also know what to do. But it is "placed aside" by RaW.
The models are, necessarily (because they normally can't physically embark). But the actual unit is demonstrably on the board. Does the unit contribute to the Psychic dice pool? Can they fire? Can they use area of effect rules?
The answer is yes to all of these - something that isn't true of units that are not on the board.
Why do you think that the answer to those is a Yes? Because we are specifically told "(including those embarked on Transports)" (Oh, because they're not actually "on the tabletop") Because of the rules found under "Fire Points". Because "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit".
None of those require the presence of the Unit on the board. If anything, they are explaining to you how things work because these Units are not on the board...
rigeld2 wrote: Great! So you agree we have to roll for Reserves. Which means that the unit must be in Reserves to roll for them. Agreed?
If it had to roll for arrival, sure.
GoI removes the need for any roll, so why do we need to qualify this roll?
We know exactly what to Roll: It is specified in the rules for Reserves. ("roll a D6 for each unit...")
It removes the need to roll, but not the reason for the rolls existence.
If you automatically hit something, does that mean you didn't have to target them?
Strawman. If you automatically hit something, does that mean you didn't have to roll To Hit?
Same answer as here: you probably had to, but it is no longer relevant.
Not a strawman. You said you get to ignore the fact that you're rolling to arrive from Reserves because you don't have to roll. And while it isn't relevant (normally) in the To Hit instance, it's absolutely relevant here.
rigeld2 wrote: The unit isn't off the board - even in that sentence it says it's embarked. "Where is the unit?" The answer cannot be off the board, the answer must be "It's embarked in that transport." Your addition does significantly change the rule, despite your assurance that it doesn't.
Incorrect.
"Where is the unit?"
remove it from the table and place it aside
It is "placed aside" (if that does not mean "off the board" then that's also fine)
I've made a note of where it's embarked and "If (I) need to measure a range involving the embarked unit..." i also know what to do. But it is "placed aside" by RaW.
The models are, necessarily (because they normally can't physically embark). But the actual unit is demonstrably on the board.
Does the unit contribute to the Psychic dice pool?
Can they fire?
Can they use area of effect rules?
The answer is yes to all of these - something that isn't true of units that are not on the board.
Why do you think that the answer to those is a Yes?
Because of the rules found under "Fire Points".
Because we are specifically told "(including those embarked on Transports)" (Oh, because they're not actually "on the tabletop")
Because "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit".
None of those require the presence of the Unit on the board. If anything, they are explaining to you how things work because these Units are not on the board...
So they're on the board (because they can effect the board in multiple ways) but they're not really on the board.
Yeah, that makes sense and is totally supported by rules. It's not that the unit is on the board and the rules have to explain interactions with embarked units - especially parentheticals that must be able to removed from a sentence without changing its meaning.
rigeld2 wrote: Great! So you agree we have to roll for Reserves. Which means that the unit must be in Reserves to roll for them. Agreed?
If it had to roll for arrival, sure. GoI removes the need for any roll, so why do we need to qualify this roll?
We know exactly what to Roll: It is specified in the rules for Reserves. ("roll a D6 for each unit...")
It removes the need to roll, but not the reason for the rolls existence.
If you automatically hit something, does that mean you didn't have to target them?
Strawman. If you automatically hit something, does that mean you didn't have to roll To Hit?
Same answer as here: you probably had to, but it is no longer relevant.
Not a strawman. You said you get to ignore the fact that you're rolling to arrive from Reserves because you don't have to roll. And while it isn't relevant (normally) in the To Hit instance, it's absolutely relevant here.
Indeed, you get to ignore the fact that you're rolling To Hit, because you don't have to roll. That is indeed correct. You get to ignore the fact that you are placed on the ground floor, because you're not arriving in Ruins You get to ignore the fact that you're rolling a save, because you don't have to roll when you suffer a Deathblow (D-weapon)
Should i continue?
If a rule removes a restriction, why would the requirements of the restriction still exist?
rigeld2 wrote: The unit isn't off the board - even in that sentence it says it's embarked. "Where is the unit?" The answer cannot be off the board, the answer must be "It's embarked in that transport." Your addition does significantly change the rule, despite your assurance that it doesn't.
Incorrect. "Where is the unit?"
remove it from the table and place it aside
It is "placed aside" (if that does not mean "off the board" then that's also fine)
I've made a note of where it's embarked and "If (I) need to measure a range involving the embarked unit..." i also know what to do. But it is "placed aside" by RaW.
The models are, necessarily (because they normally can't physically embark). But the actual unit is demonstrably on the board. Does the unit contribute to the Psychic dice pool? Can they fire? Can they use area of effect rules?
The answer is yes to all of these - something that isn't true of units that are not on the board.
Why do you think that the answer to those is a Yes? Because of the rules found under "Fire Points". Because we are specifically told "(including those embarked on Transports)" (Oh, because they're not actually "on the tabletop") Because "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit".
None of those require the presence of the Unit on the board. If anything, they are explaining to you how things work because these Units are not on the board...
So they're on the board (because they can effect the board in multiple ways) but they're not really on the board. Yeah, that makes sense and is totally supported by rules. It's not that the unit is on the board and the rules have to explain interactions with embarked units - especially parentheticals that must be able to removed from a sentence without changing its meaning.
No, they're not on the board, but they (the vehicle) can effect the board in multiple ways, yes.
The parentheticals were to imply more meaning, but they're not needed.
"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle’s hull."
The above does not require "the embarked unit" to be present on the board. It tells you how to measure to something "not on the board".
BlackTalos wrote: Indeed, you get to ignore the fact that you're rolling To Hit, because you don't have to roll. That is indeed correct.
You get to ignore the fact that you are placed on the ground floor, because you're not arriving in Ruins
You get to ignore the fact that you're rolling a save, because you don't have to roll when you suffer a Deathblow (D-weapon)
Should i continue?
If a rule removes a restriction, why would the requirements of the restriction still exist?
It's not removing a restriction - rolling to arrive isn't a restriction. It's part of the instruction on arriving. You don't have to roll, but that doesn't mean you're not arriving.
No, they're not on the board, but they (the vehicle) can effect the board in multiple ways, yes.
The vehicle is not effecting the board in multiple ways.
The vehicle does not shoot out of firing points.
The vehicle does not contribute psychic dice.
The vehicle does not have a banner (or whatever).
The embarked unit does.
The parentheticals were to imply more meaning, but they're not needed.
"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle’s hull."
The above does not require "the embarked unit" to be present on the board. It tells you how to measure to something "not on the board".
So we'll just ignore the parenthetical you quoted earlier?
Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop (including those embarked on Transports) and adds that many dice to their Warp Charge pool.
For the sentence to be grammatically correct, we must be able to remove the parenthetical without changing the meaning of the sentence.
Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop and adds that many dice to their Warp Charge pool.
Oh look. Either a) embarked units are on the tabletop or b) the sentence isn't grammatically correct. Since we can't assume b) then a) must be true.
I do not understand why you try to refute this, when the rules explicitly, with zero ambiguity, state this.
The unit is not on the board. THe rules then give you ways to interact with a unit not on the board, because otherwise we would have a gap
This does not alter the FACT, indisputable in RAW, that they are most certanily NOT on the board.
So embarked units do not, in fact, contribute psychic dice?
Or is that sentence grammatically incorrect?
If the unit is not on the board, how are you selecting it to fire from a firing point?
If the unit is not on the board, how is its banner being used?
I do not understand why you try to refute this given that the rules explicitly, with zero ambiguity, state this. The embarked unit is on the board.
I do not understand why you try to refute this, when the rules explicitly, with zero ambiguity, state this.
The unit is not on the board. THe rules then give you ways to interact with a unit not on the board, because otherwise we would have a gap
This does not alter the FACT, indisputable in RAW, that they are most certanily NOT on the board.
So embarked units do not, in fact, contribute psychic dice? Or is that sentence grammatically incorrect? If the unit is not on the board, how are you selecting it to fire from a firing point? If the unit is not on the board, how is its banner being used?
I do not understand why you try to refute this given that the rules explicitly, with zero ambiguity, state this. The embarked unit is on the board.
this rule, yet again wrote:When the unit embarks, remove it {a reference to the unit} from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported.
My addition in {}, in case the subject of "it" was somehow unclear. Note that it *cannot* refer to models, but the set of models known as "the unit". No other parsing is possible. None.
So that line does not exist? Or will you actually adderss this point, rather than handwave it away?
Your argument is devolving rapidly here, take a step back, rather than answer with sarcastic posts.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Blaktoof, your inability to read to actual rules is astounding. Please actually read the Deep Strike USR. You know, the rule you just made a false statement about? The rule that tells us in no uncertain terms that Deep Strike is also known as Deep Strike Reserves? You know, that point you keep missing that we keep pointing out to you and BlackTalos?
Its a very easy concept, printed in the BRB, both physical and digital. Please try to actually read the rules.
SJ
Deep Strike Reserves is independent from having the Deep Strike USR and being able to arrive by Deep Strike. It has been proven enough times that your inability to read 'to' actual rules is astounding.
Its a very easy concept, printed in the BRB, both physical and digital. Please try to actually read the rules.
Is there anyway I can get you to correct your grammar so you point is intelligible? As it stands, you seem you be missing words or have used the wrong words due to auto correct, I'm assuming?
I'm pretty sure you meant to say that despite the Deep Strike USR specifically stating in the second sentence of the first paragraph that Deep Strike is also known as Deep Strike Reserves, that you do not have to be in Reserves nor have the Deep Strike USR in order to Deep Strike or be in Deep Strike Reserves. Because if that was what you were trying to say, the we would be in agreement. If not, please fix your typos.
BlackTalos wrote: Indeed, you get to ignore the fact that you're rolling To Hit, because you don't have to roll. That is indeed correct.
You get to ignore the fact that you are placed on the ground floor, because you're not arriving in Ruins
You get to ignore the fact that you're rolling a save, because you don't have to roll when you suffer a Deathblow (D-weapon)
Should i continue?
If a rule removes a restriction, why would the requirements of the restriction still exist?
It's not removing a restriction - rolling to arrive isn't a restriction. It's part of the instruction on arriving. You don't have to roll, but that doesn't mean you're not arriving.
Permission then. You don't have to roll, which means you just "deploy them as follows:".
You are arriving because GoI tell you to arrive, not because you are rolling to arrive.
No, they're not on the board, but they (the vehicle) can effect the board in multiple ways, yes.
The vehicle is not effecting the board in multiple ways.
The vehicle does not shoot out of firing points.
The vehicle does not contribute psychic dice.
The vehicle does not have a banner (or whatever).
The embarked unit does.
(including those embarked on Transports) contributes psychic dice. They are not on the table.
"a single passenger can fire out of each Fire Point". He is not on the table.
"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit" (cause the embarked Unit has a banner). The embarked Unit is not on the table.
Every "not on the table" is RaW by the way: "remove it from the table and place it aside"
The parentheticals were to imply more meaning, but they're not needed.
"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle’s hull."
The above does not require "the embarked unit" to be present on the board. It tells you how to measure to something "not on the board".
So we'll just ignore the parenthetical you quoted earlier?
Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop (including those embarked on Transports) and adds that many dice to their Warp Charge pool.
For the sentence to be grammatically correct, we must be able to remove the parenthetical without changing the meaning of the sentence.
Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop and adds that many dice to their Warp Charge pool.
Oh look. Either a) embarked units are on the tabletop or b) the sentence isn't grammatically correct. Since we can't assume b) then a) must be true.
I did not think you were referring to those, of course those are RaW and of crucial importance...
I do not understand why you try to refute this, when the rules explicitly, with zero ambiguity, state this.
The unit is not on the board. THe rules then give you ways to interact with a unit not on the board, because otherwise we would have a gap
This does not alter the FACT, indisputable in RAW, that they are most certanily NOT on the board.
So embarked units do not, in fact, contribute psychic dice?
Or is that sentence grammatically incorrect?
If the unit is not on the board, how are you selecting it to fire from a firing point?
If the unit is not on the board, how is its banner being used?
I do not understand why you try to refute this given that the rules explicitly, with zero ambiguity, state this. The embarked unit is on the board.
this rule, yet again wrote:When the unit embarks, remove it {a reference to the unit} from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported.
My addition in {}, in case the subject of "it" was somehow unclear. Note that it *cannot* refer to models, but the set of models known as "the unit". No other parsing is possible. None.
So that line does not exist? Or will you actually adderss this point, rather than handwave it away?
Your argument is devolving rapidly here, take a step back, rather than answer with sarcastic posts.
I've acknowledged the fact that the models in the unit is set aside - it's a physical requirement as they can't physically embark in the vehicle.
That doesn't change the fact - undeniable - that the rules refer to the embarked unit as being on the table. As I've demonstrated.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Blaktoof, your inability to read to actual rules is astounding. Please actually read the Deep Strike USR. You know, the rule you just made a false statement about? The rule that tells us in no uncertain terms that Deep Strike is also known as Deep Strike Reserves? You know, that point you keep missing that we keep pointing out to you and BlackTalos?
Its a very easy concept, printed in the BRB, both physical and digital. Please try to actually read the rules.
SJ
Deep Strike Reserves is independent from having the Deep Strike USR and being able to arrive by Deep Strike. It has been proven enough times that your inability to read 'to' actual rules is astounding.
Its a very easy concept, printed in the BRB, both physical and digital. Please try to actually read the rules.
Is there anyway I can get you to correct your grammar so you point is intelligible? As it stands, you seem you be missing words or have used the wrong words due to auto correct, I'm assuming?
I'm pretty sure you meant to say that despite the Deep Strike USR specifically stating in the second sentence of the first paragraph that Deep Strike is also known as Deep Strike Reserves, that you do not have to be in Reserves nor have the Deep Strike USR in order to Deep Strike or be in Deep Strike Reserves. Because if that was what you were trying to say, the we would be in agreement. If not, please fix your typos.
SJ
"Deep Strike Reserves is independent from having the Deep Strike USR and being able to arrive by Deep Strike." Is grammatically correct, or do you have trouble with complex phrases? I will split it up to help with your understanding of the phrase:
-Deep Strike Reserves is independent from having the Deep Strike USR.
-Deep Strike Reserves is independent from being able to arrive by Deep Strike.
Rigeld - So youre changing the rule as written then to state "the unit is not put aside, the models are"?
Because the rule *never* confines itself to the model. It explicitly - as already given above - states the unit is removed.
Do you disagree the unit is removed? If so, please explain how the "it" suddenly refers to the models. And not, as English requires, the subject which is the unit.
At least one par tof your "proof" requires that GW are using grammatically correct English as regards parentheticals - an unsafe assumption given the absolutely explicit rule above.
BlackTalos wrote: Indeed, you get to ignore the fact that you're rolling To Hit, because you don't have to roll. That is indeed correct.
You get to ignore the fact that you are placed on the ground floor, because you're not arriving in Ruins
You get to ignore the fact that you're rolling a save, because you don't have to roll when you suffer a Deathblow (D-weapon)
Should i continue?
If a rule removes a restriction, why would the requirements of the restriction still exist?
It's not removing a restriction - rolling to arrive isn't a restriction. It's part of the instruction on arriving. You don't have to roll, but that doesn't mean you're not arriving.
Permission then. You don't have to roll, which means you just "deploy them as follows:".
You are arriving because GoI tell you to arrive, not because you are rolling to arrive.
You don't have to roll, but that alleviates all other requirements? Seriously? And you're saying that's not handwaving things away?
No, they're not on the board, but they (the vehicle) can effect the board in multiple ways, yes.
The vehicle is not effecting the board in multiple ways.
The vehicle does not shoot out of firing points.
The vehicle does not contribute psychic dice.
The vehicle does not have a banner (or whatever).
The embarked unit does.
(including those embarked on Transports) contributes psychic dice. They are not on the table.
"a single passenger can fire out of each Fire Point". He is not on the table.
"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit" (cause the embarked Unit has a banner). The embarked Unit is not on the table.
Every "not on the table" is RaW by the way: "remove it from the table and place it aside"
I've demonstrated that you're incorrect on the Psychic dice - demonstrably so.
Spoiler:
NOMINATE A UNIT TO SHOOT
During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.
Cite permission to nominate a unit that is not on the table. As soon as you do, I'm going to start nominating units that are in Reserve. There are weapons with infinite range.
The embarked unit is being transported - it's on the table.
The parentheticals were to imply more meaning, but they're not needed.
"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle’s hull."
The above does not require "the embarked unit" to be present on the board. It tells you how to measure to something "not on the board".
So we'll just ignore the parenthetical you quoted earlier?
Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop (including those embarked on Transports) and adds that many dice to their Warp Charge pool.
For the sentence to be grammatically correct, we must be able to remove the parenthetical without changing the meaning of the sentence.
Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop and adds that many dice to their Warp Charge pool.
Oh look. Either a) embarked units are on the tabletop or b) the sentence isn't grammatically correct. Since we can't assume b) then a) must be true.
I did not think you were referring to those, of course those are RaW and of crucial importance...
So you're saying the sentence is not grammatically correct?
I will then require you to measure to the unit. Infinite range or not, you must still comply with this requirement. The fire point rules show how to do this for an embarked unit. NOw show how this applies to a unit in reserves.
Seirously, youre making totally debunked arguments now. As in, 2 edition old arguments about units being off table (embarked) vs off table (in reserves)
Again, you have no rule to allow you to ignore that the unit , while embarked, is removed from the table. This is proven. Address it, or concede that you cannot do so.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Again, you have no rule to allow you to ignore that the unit , while embarked, is removed from the table. This is proven. Address it, or concede that you cannot do so.
I have of course. You just like to ignore that fact.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Again, you have no rule to allow you to ignore that the unit , while embarked, is removed from the table. This is proven. Address it, or concede that you cannot do so.
I have of course. You just like to ignore that fact.
"like" implies emotion, and the potential for bias in my arguments. Youre better than using that as an argument technique - thats more the style of posters on ignore.
I am applying a simple rule, and asking why somehow the rule is not correct.
Page and graph where the unit that is off the tabke - explicitly so - is explicitly on the table. Humour me - if you've already proven it, this should be easy to find an explicit reference that the unit is on the board.
If you can find it, t still does not help you, you realise? This does not prove thata unit off the board is in reserve - all it proves is that this unit is simultaneously ON and OFF the board. Not that being off the board means you must be in reserves.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Again, you have no rule to allow you to ignore that the unit , while embarked, is removed from the table. This is proven. Address it, or concede that you cannot do so.
I have of course. You just like to ignore that fact.
"like" implies emotion, and the potential for bias in my arguments. Youre better than using that as an argument technique - thats more the style of posters on ignore.
I am applying a simple rule, and asking why somehow the rule is not correct.
Page and graph where the unit that is off the tabke - explicitly so - is explicitly on the table. Humour me - if you've already proven it, this should be easy to find an explicit reference that the unit is on the board.
Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop and adds that many dice to their Warp Charge pool.
The parenthetical I removed (which must be removable to be grammatically correct) is "(including those embarked on Transports)". Since it's removable, it proves that units embarked on Transports are on the tabletop, according to the rules.
If you can find it, t still does not help you, you realise? This does not prove thata unit off the board is in reserve - all it proves is that this unit is simultaneously ON and OFF the board. Not that being off the board means you must be in reserves.
The tangent started because the assertion was made that units in vehicles were off the board as evidence that there were more than two options (dead, reserves).
I've proven that this isn't true, and that those are the only two options. I've further proven that GoI uses the rules for Deep Strike which include rolling to arrive from Reserves (the roll is skipped, but there's no conflict with arriving from Reserves).
I'm sure you already knew that though - since you've been reading my posts.
And clearly you have been reading my posts, yes? Not just quote snipping, which is incredibly irritating? A fact you are aware of....
Here, I'll requote it for you:
At least one par tof your "proof" requires that GW are using grammatically correct English as regards parentheticals - an unsafe assumption given the absolutely explicit rule above.
So, given I've shown the explicit rule that shows they are OFF the board, and you have at best an *implication* that, IF GW understand how to use correct English (unsafe), the unit is counted for warp charges - I would suggest the OFF the board side is more persuasive.
You have not proven those are the only two options. Explcitly, without ambiguity, an embarked unit is off the board, and is neither dead nor in reserves.
You have not overturned the explicit rule. You have, at best, shown they are OFF and ON the board at the same time (gee, I already mentioned this..you were reading my entire post, yes?) - whcih does not, in anyway, DISprove that they are OFF the board and there is THEREFORE an "off the board" state that is neither Reserves nor Dead
You are disproven, utterly, because you fail to overturn the explicit rule, or even address it. Stop with the tangent, as it is proven that there is a "3rd state" that is neither Reserves nor Dead.
BlackTalos wrote: Indeed, you get to ignore the fact that you're rolling To Hit, because you don't have to roll. That is indeed correct.
You get to ignore the fact that you are placed on the ground floor, because you're not arriving in Ruins
You get to ignore the fact that you're rolling a save, because you don't have to roll when you suffer a Deathblow (D-weapon)
Should i continue?
If a rule removes a restriction, why would the requirements of the restriction still exist?
It's not removing a restriction - rolling to arrive isn't a restriction. It's part of the instruction on arriving. You don't have to roll, but that doesn't mean you're not arriving.
Permission then. You don't have to roll, which means you just "deploy them as follows:".
You are arriving because GoI tell you to arrive, not because you are rolling to arrive.
You don't have to roll, but that alleviates all other requirements? Seriously? And you're saying that's not handwaving things away?
Any requirements linked to the need to roll, yes, of course. The RaW is this:
Arriving by Deep Strike Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model
GoI:
"arrives (...) using the rules for Deep Strike"
But it removes the permission to roll for arrival, so what are the rules you are following?
Arriving by Deep Strike deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model
No, they're not on the board, but they (the vehicle) can effect the board in multiple ways, yes.
The vehicle is not effecting the board in multiple ways.
The vehicle does not shoot out of firing points.
The vehicle does not contribute psychic dice.
The vehicle does not have a banner (or whatever).
The embarked unit does.
(including those embarked on Transports) contributes psychic dice. They are not on the table.
"a single passenger can fire out of each Fire Point". He is not on the table.
"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit" (cause the embarked Unit has a banner). The embarked Unit is not on the table.
Every "not on the table" is RaW by the way: "remove it from the table and place it aside"
I've demonstrated that you're incorrect on the Psychic dice - demonstrably so.
Spoiler:
NOMINATE A UNIT TO SHOOT
During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.
Cite permission to nominate a unit that is not on the table. As soon as you do, I'm going to start nominating units that are in Reserve. There are weapons with infinite range.
The embarked unit is being transported - it's on the table.
As Nos has said: You can pick any Unit.
Pick the Unit in Reserves. Now select where that unit is measuring from, and determine its line of sight.
Pick the Unit off the table, Noted to be in Rhino 1. Now select where that unit is measuring from, and determine its line of sight: "Ranges and line of sight are measured from the Fire
Point itself."
Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop and adds that many dice to their Warp Charge pool.
The parenthetical I removed (which must be removable to be grammatically correct) is "(including those embarked on Transports)". Since it's removable, it proves that units embarked on Transports are on the tabletop, according to the rules.
The tangent started because the assertion was made that units in vehicles were off the board as evidence that there were more than two options (dead, reserves).
I've proven that this isn't true, and that those are the only two options. I've further proven that GoI uses the rules for Deep Strike which include rolling to arrive from Reserves (the roll is skipped, but there's no conflict with arriving from Reserves).
I'm sure you already knew that though - since you've been reading my posts.
The parenthetical is an additional piece of information. The rule is changed without it. It would not be needed otherwise.
And indeed, as we have proved again that the Unit is "place it aside" and not on the board, the same can be said for Units using GoI.
There are indeed more than two options (dead, reserves).
jeffersonian000 wrote: Blaktoof, your inability to read to actual rules is astounding. Please actually read the Deep Strike USR. You know, the rule you just made a false statement about? The rule that tells us in no uncertain terms that Deep Strike is also known as Deep Strike Reserves? You know, that point you keep missing that we keep pointing out to you and BlackTalos?
Its a very easy concept, printed in the BRB, both physical and digital. Please try to actually read the rules.
SJ
Deep Strike Reserves is independent from having the Deep Strike USR and being able to arrive by Deep Strike. It has been proven enough times that your inability to read 'to' actual rules is astounding.
Its a very easy concept, printed in the BRB, both physical and digital. Please try to actually read the rules.
Is there anyway I can get you to correct your grammar so you point is intelligible? As it stands, you seem you be missing words or have used the wrong words due to auto correct, I'm assuming?
I'm pretty sure you meant to say that despite the Deep Strike USR specifically stating in the second sentence of the first paragraph that Deep Strike is also known as Deep Strike Reserves, that you do not have to be in Reserves nor have the Deep Strike USR in order to Deep Strike or be in Deep Strike Reserves. Because if that was what you were trying to say, the we would be in agreement. If not, please fix your typos.
SJ
"Deep Strike Reserves is independent from having the Deep Strike USR and being able to arrive by Deep Strike." Is grammatically correct, or do you have trouble with complex phrases? I will split it up to help with your understanding of the phrase:
-Deep Strike Reserves is independent from having the Deep Strike USR.
-Deep Strike Reserves is independent from being able to arrive by Deep Strike.
Ohhhhhh, I see! You were just supporting my position, which had me confused. That makes sense, now.
BlackTalos wrote: Indeed, you get to ignore the fact that you're rolling To Hit, because you don't have to roll. That is indeed correct. You get to ignore the fact that you are placed on the ground floor, because you're not arriving in Ruins You get to ignore the fact that you're rolling a save, because you don't have to roll when you suffer a Deathblow (D-weapon)
Should i continue?
If a rule removes a restriction, why would the requirements of the restriction still exist?
It's not removing a restriction - rolling to arrive isn't a restriction. It's part of the instruction on arriving. You don't have to roll, but that doesn't mean you're not arriving.
Permission then. You don't have to roll, which means you just "deploy them as follows:".
You are arriving because GoI tell you to arrive, not because you are rolling to arrive.
You don't have to roll, but that alleviates all other requirements? Seriously? And you're saying that's not handwaving things away?
Any requirements linked to the need to roll, yes, of course. The RaW is this:
Arriving by Deep Strike Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows: • First, place one model
SNIP.
Why are you only applying some of the Deep Strike rule? You're making an assumption that's all that applies without rules support. In addition, the only thing you're allowed to do is skip the roll, not anything else. You're skipping more than the need to roll with your interpretation. As I've said before.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nosferatu1001 wrote: And clearly you have been reading my posts, yes? Not just quote snipping, which is incredibly irritating? A fact you are aware of....
Here, I'll requote it for you:
At least one par tof your "proof" requires that GW are using grammatically correct English as regards parentheticals - an unsafe assumption given the absolutely explicit rule above.
Given that you edited that sentence in after I replied to another post... No, assuming GW uses grammatically correct English is never an "unsafe assumption." Words mean things. To begin with the assumption that they don't use grammatically correct English leads to a slippery slope - many of the discussions in here revolve around grammar and with this statement you've literally nullified all of them. Even ones that you've participated in.
So, given I've shown the explicit rule that shows they are OFF the board, and you have at best an *implication* that, IF GW understand how to use correct English (unsafe), the unit is counted for warp charges - I would suggest the OFF the board side is more persuasive.
And I've explained that the models are off the board because it's physically impossible for them to be on the board - but that the unit is on the board.
You have not proven those are the only two options. Explcitly, without ambiguity, an embarked unit is off the board, and is neither dead nor in reserves.
Only if you begin to assume GW don't write grammatically correct sentences. Which is an assumption that has no basis in fact and leads to significant problems.
You have not overturned the explicit rule. You have, at best, shown they are OFF and ON the board at the same time (gee, I already mentioned this..you were reading my entire post, yes?) - whcih does not, in anyway, DISprove that they are OFF the board and there is THEREFORE an "off the board" state that is neither Reserves nor Dead
Screw it, I'll give up this tangent - not because you're correct but because you refuse to actually see my point and would rather instead get snippy.
You are disproven, utterly, because you fail to overturn the explicit rule, or even address it. Stop with the tangent, as it is proven that there is a "3rd state" that is neither Reserves nor Dead.
Your absolute statements are, as always, rude and incorrect. But as I said, I'm done with this tangent.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BlackTalos wrote: As Nos has said: You can pick any Unit. Pick the Unit in Reserves. Now select where that unit is measuring from, and determine its line of sight. Pick the Unit off the table, Noted to be in Rhino 1. Now select where that unit is measuring from, and determine its line of sight: "Ranges and line of sight are measured from the Fire Point itself."
So you agree that a barrage weapon with infinite range could be fired from Reserves?
Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop and adds that many dice to their Warp Charge pool.
The parenthetical I removed (which must be removable to be grammatically correct) is "(including those embarked on Transports)". Since it's removable, it proves that units embarked on Transports are on the tabletop, according to the rules.
The tangent started because the assertion was made that units in vehicles were off the board as evidence that there were more than two options (dead, reserves). I've proven that this isn't true, and that those are the only two options. I've further proven that GoI uses the rules for Deep Strike which include rolling to arrive from Reserves (the roll is skipped, but there's no conflict with arriving from Reserves). I'm sure you already knew that though - since you've been reading my posts.
The parenthetical is an additional piece of information. The rule is changed without it. It would not be needed otherwise.
Then the sentence is in fact grammatically incorrect according to you? A simple yes or no is sufficient.
But again, I'm done with this tangent. I literally couldn't care less.
But please, remember this next time you bring up correct grammar in an argument - you've literally just defeated your own arguments in multiple threads.
BlackTalos wrote: Indeed, you get to ignore the fact that you're rolling To Hit, because you don't have to roll. That is indeed correct.
You get to ignore the fact that you are placed on the ground floor, because you're not arriving in Ruins
You get to ignore the fact that you're rolling a save, because you don't have to roll when you suffer a Deathblow (D-weapon)
Should i continue?
If a rule removes a restriction, why would the requirements of the restriction still exist?
It's not removing a restriction - rolling to arrive isn't a restriction. It's part of the instruction on arriving. You don't have to roll, but that doesn't mean you're not arriving.
Permission then. You don't have to roll, which means you just "deploy them as follows:".
You are arriving because GoI tell you to arrive, not because you are rolling to arrive.
You don't have to roll, but that alleviates all other requirements? Seriously? And you're saying that's not handwaving things away?
Any requirements linked to the need to roll, yes, of course. The RaW is this:
Arriving by Deep Strike Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model
SNIP.
Why are you only applying some of the Deep Strike rule? You're making an assumption that's all that applies without rules support.
In addition, the only thing you're allowed to do is skip the roll, not anything else. You're skipping more than the need to roll with your interpretation. As I've said before.
But they both relate to the Deep Strike USR, correct?
One refers to "arriving" using DS, the other refers to "deploy" using DS, correct?
Could i try to push understanding here one step further , and get you to find both of those in the Deep Strike Rules?
Spoiler:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
Arriving by Deep Strike Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.
• Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may (etc).
(Copied from BRB-Digital edition)
Would the above "distinction" between the two terms ("arriving" VS "deploy" using DS) signify these rules are calling out specific sections of the Deep Strike USR?
This is the part you will not agree with, but i'm curious as to why? It is logically completely sound.
BlackTalos wrote: As Nos has said: You can pick any Unit.
Pick the Unit in Reserves. Now select where that unit is measuring from, and determine its line of sight.
Pick the Unit off the table, Noted to be in Rhino 1. Now select where that unit is measuring from, and determine its line of sight: "Ranges and line of sight are measured from the Fire
Point itself."
So you agree that a barrage weapon with infinite range could be fired from Reserves?
Oh indeed! When you've shown me how you measure its range, let me know. Don't forget:
"When checking range, simply measure from each firer to..."
Regardless of the value of the "range".
I can do that for fire points, can you do it for this unit?
Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop and adds that many dice to their Warp Charge pool.
The parenthetical I removed (which must be removable to be grammatically correct) is "(including those embarked on Transports)". Since it's removable, it proves that units embarked on Transports are on the tabletop, according to the rules.
The tangent started because the assertion was made that units in vehicles were off the board as evidence that there were more than two options (dead, reserves).
I've proven that this isn't true, and that those are the only two options. I've further proven that GoI uses the rules for Deep Strike which include rolling to arrive from Reserves (the roll is skipped, but there's no conflict with arriving from Reserves).
I'm sure you already knew that though - since you've been reading my posts.
The parenthetical is an additional piece of information. The rule is changed without it. It would not be needed otherwise.
Then the sentence is in fact grammatically incorrect according to you? A simple yes or no is sufficient.
But again, I'm done with this tangent. I literally couldn't care less.
But please, remember this next time you bring up correct grammar in an argument - you've literally just defeated your own arguments in multiple threads.
The sentence is correct Grammatically. What does this prove?
I was not even paying attention to that tangent, and did not read your "parenthetical" argument as i did not find it relevant, so this defeats nothing, just shows i'm getting tired.
BlackTalos wrote: Covered before, but you just changed the subject: But they both relate to the Deep Strike USR, correct? One refers to "arriving" using DS, the other refers to "deploy" using DS, correct?
Could i try to push understanding here one step further , and get you to find both of those in the Deep Strike Rules?
Spoiler:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
So we know (factually) that to Deep Strike (which is what GoI is telling you to do) you must be in Reserve. Right there. In your quote.
Spoiler:
]Arriving by Deep Strike Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows: • First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter. • Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit. • Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain. In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may (etc). (Copied from BRB-Digital edition)
First, emphasizing with white and grey is the opposite of useful, as I've pointed out before. Second, the fact that the unit is arriving by Deep Strike does not mean you get to ignore parts of the rule you deem unworthy. You must roll for the arrival. GoI allows you to skip the roll, but not the reason for it. You can skip a roll To Hit, but you were still shooting a weapon.
The sentence is correct Grammatically. What does this prove?
Not if you insist that removing the parenthetical changes the meaning of the sentence (which you said it did).
I was not even paying attention to that tangent, and did not read your "parenthetical" argument as i did not find it relevant, so this defeats nothing, just shows i'm getting tired.
Thanks for not reading my posts! It actually was relevant, which you'd have know if you had, I dunno, actually read things. That you even responded to. So I'm not sure how to take that.
"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting) (that is off the board), this range is measured to or from the vehicle’s hull."
I have added the underlined. It does not make the rule incorrect. There is no contradiction if the specified Unit is not on the board, you've made a Note of where it is...
The unit isn't off the board - even in that sentence it says it's embarked. "Where is the unit?" The answer cannot be off the board, the answer must be "It's embarked in that transport." Your addition does significantly change the rule, despite your assurance that it doesn't.
Thought you were referring to this "parenthetical".
As i said, it was probably an error to add it, as the meaning could be proposed without them.
BlackTalos wrote: Covered before, but you just changed the subject:
But they both relate to the Deep Strike USR, correct?
One refers to "arriving" using DS, the other refers to "deploy" using DS, correct?
Could i try to push understanding here one step further , and get you to find both of those in the Deep Strike Rules?
Spoiler:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
So we know (factually) that to Deep Strike (which is what GoI is telling you to do) you must be in Reserve. Right there. In your quote.
Spoiler:
Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.
• Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may (etc).
(Copied from BRB-Digital edition)
First, emphasizing with white and grey is the opposite of useful, as I've pointed out before.
Second, the fact that the unit is arriving by Deep Strike does not mean you get to ignore parts of the rule you deem unworthy. You must roll for the arrival. GoI allows you to skip the roll, but not the reason for it.
You can skip a roll To Hit, but you were still shooting a weapon.
What if you were not shooting a weapon, but Vector Striking? Does that mean that the Automatic hit is invalid, because the rules To Hit happen if you were still shooting a weapon?
That is why i am calling it a strawman. Sure, we can prove auto-hits needed a shot first, but this debate would not correctly resolve GoI.
You must roll for arrival, but GoI allows you to skip rolling for arrival. The roll is the only thing tied to Reserves, as proved. Remove the roll, where does the above mention reserves?
Only the first paragraph does so, and we are not including it (because we're only following:
"Arriving by Deep Strike"
The sentence is correct Grammatically. What does this prove?
Not if you insist that removing the parenthetical changes the meaning of the sentence (which you said it did).
I was not even paying attention to that tangent, and did not read your "parenthetical" argument as i did not find it relevant, so this defeats nothing, just shows i'm getting tired.
Thanks for not reading my posts! It actually was relevant, which you'd have know if you had, I dunno, actually read things. That you even responded to. So I'm not sure how to take that.
BlackTalos wrote: What if you were not shooting a weapon, but Vector Striking? Does that mean that the Automatic hit is invalid, because the rules To Hit happen if you were still shooting a weapon?
No because there's rules to handle that (under Vector Strike).
That is why i am calling it a strawman. Sure, we can prove auto-hits needed a shot first, but this debate would not correctly resolve GoI.
Then you're using the wrong word. Please don't throw the word "strawman" around incorrectly. I'm taking your exact argument and applying it elsewhere, putting no words in your mouth. Calling it a strawman means I'm putting words in your mouth.
You must roll for arrival, but GoI allows you to skip rolling for arrival. The roll is the only thing tied to Reserves, as proved. Remove the roll, where does the above mention reserves?
Only the first paragraph does so, and we are not including it (because we're only following:
"Arriving by Deep Strike"
The roll is not the only thing tied to Reserves - that's your assertion, but never proven.
You must roll to arrive from Reserves. You don't need to roll. Therefore you arrive. Arrive from where? Context of the rule says "Reserves".
And you've still failed to support your stance that you can ignore an entire paragraph of rules just because you want to.
Rigeld - no, you have made up an explanation to fit your noTion of what is correct.
The unit is demonstrably off the board. Not jus the models. The whole unit. This is proven.
All you an do, at best, is prove they are off and on the board at the same time. Hitch still defeats your assertion.
My absolute statement was no more absolute than yours, when you claimed that you have proven they are only on the board. Except I proved that was false, and you have not addressed - as in with some real, actual rules, not your assertion about models which is proven false - the rule concerned at all.
They are on and off the table at the same time - all you can prove.
Which still proves there is a place off the table that isn't either reserves or dead.
So now, I will leave it. The rules are clear, for once, they just do not match with what you want them to be.
The unit is removed from the board, getting the models off the table. It then goes on to easy Note: the unit is on the transport. Note the unit is on the transport, which is on the table... The unit is on the table!
greytalon666 wrote: The unit is removed from the board, getting the models off the table. It then goes on to easy Note: the unit is on the transport. Note the unit is on the transport, which is on the table... The unit is on the table!
No, it does not go on to easy (sic) Note: you made that up. Be precise.
Again, I fully understand that the models have to be physically removed. There is no rejection of that concept. The point that is proven is that explicitly the UNIT is off the table. That is indisputable.
They may ALSO be on the table. I don't really care, because they most certainly are OFF the table.
Edit: didn't realise this was grey. Assume this applies to the thread not grey.
Nyghoma wrote: Gate of infinity uses all the rules for deep strike, ALL. Whether you think it makes sense or doesn't, you can only arrive by reserves. When you are removed from the table with GoI, think of reserves as a temporary time pocket or the Warp.
sorry bud, but youre wrong here.
a unit in reserves is a unit that doesnt come in on turn one and has to roll for permission to enter the board from reserves.
gate of infinity does not do this. its not a reserve unit. its a unit, already on the board, leaving the board and arriving by deep strike on the same turn it left. So, no...it doesnt get RoT. neither does the drop pod theory.
This one doesn't seem to have achieved anything other than to get people riled, so we can probably chalk it up as another 'talk to your opponent' situation and move on.
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