I'm possibly being blind, but how does preferred enemy affect blasts? Does it allow a scatter re roll just like twin linked blasts?

Use the search function to find the last several page argument. Search for pask preffered enemy and scatter.

According to the rules as written it allows a Reroll, as the rules only ask whether you had the ability to reroll blasts, not how good an ability you hve.

Some posters dispute this, but have no rules backing that stands up to any scrutiny, just assertions.

OK. I don't want to start another immense argument where two sides can not settle. I was of the opinion of it allows a re rolled fail to hit. So as long as I roll all 3 dice I may even get a worse result and that balances the fairness.

I shall simply ask my opponent.

Look up blasts and rerolls, the rule is pretty clear.

That's a tricky one!

I've just had a similar rule discussion on another website regarding Scatter Weapons that Get Hot with Preferred Enemy, and that was clearer than this as with Gets Hot you roll an individual dice before any scatter dice to determine the Gets Hot outcome, Preffered Enemy can be used if a 1 is rolled here.

However in this case you would not roll a 1 as you aren't technically rolling to hit. All I can see in the rule book regarding this is the following:

Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls:

If a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast Weapon, the player must re-roll both the Scatter Dice and the 2D6.

I would personally say that PE is useless here. However there may well be something in the rule book thag says otherwise!

Hope this helps.

The rule you quoted only requires a reroll to exist it doesn't care about the trigger. So rolling a 1 is no more important than say rolling a failed to hit (the trigger for a reroll with prescience and every other reroll to hit I'm aware of in the game, except perhaps ammo runts).

This has become a "Chicken or the Egg" argument. There is no definitive answer, that both sides can agree on.

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:
That's a tricky one!

I've just had a similar rule discussion on another website regarding Scatter Weapons that Get Hot with Preferred Enemy, and that was clearer than this as with Gets Hot you roll an individual dice before any scatter dice to determine the Gets Hot outcome, Preffered Enemy can be used if a 1 is rolled here.

Your conclusion is correct, but your argument isn't. Blasts weapons never roll to hit, so PEs restriction on 1s isn't relevant.

However in this case you would not roll a 1 as you aren't technically rolling to hit. All I can see in the rule book regarding this is the following:

Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls:

If a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast Weapon, the player must re-roll both the Scatter Dice and the 2D6.

I would personally say that PE is useless here. However there may well be something in the rule book thag says otherwise!

Is PE an ability to reroll To Hit? It's an unqualified question, so the answer cannot be "sometimes" - it's either yes it no. And it cannot be no, as the ability does allow you to reroll (some) To Hit rolls. So the answer must be yes.

rigeld2 wrote:

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:
That's a tricky one!

I've just had a similar rule discussion on another website regarding Scatter Weapons that Get Hot with Preferred Enemy, and that was clearer than this as with Gets Hot you roll an individual dice before any scatter dice to determine the Gets Hot outcome, Preffered Enemy can be used if a 1 is rolled here.

Your conclusion is correct, but your argument isn't. Blasts weapons never roll to hit, so PEs restriction on 1s isn't relevant.

However in this case you would not roll a 1 as you aren't technically rolling to hit. All I can see in the rule book regarding this is the following:

Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls:

If a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast Weapon, the player must re-roll both the Scatter Dice and the 2D6.

I would personally say that PE is useless here. However there may well be something in the rule book thag says otherwise!

Is PE an ability to reroll To Hit? It's an unqualified question, so the answer cannot be "sometimes" - it's either yes it no. And it cannot be no, as the ability does allow you to reroll (some) To Hit rolls. So the answer must be yes. [/w]

Firstly, you've just stated yourself that Blast Weapons "Never Roll To Hit". So the Preffered enemy rule which allows you to re-roll TO HIT and TO WOUND rolls wouldn't come into play here would it. Besides, you can't scatter a roll of a '1'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can somebody who is arguing you CAN re-roll please quote a rule that states this? Instead of just giving your point of view!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Warhammer 40K The Rules 7'th:

Blast Weapons:
"When firing a Blast Weapon models do not roll To Hit."

Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls:
"If a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast Weapon, the player must re-roll both the Scatter Dice and the 2D6."

Preferred Enemy:
"A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking it's Preferred Enemy."

Conclusion: As stated above, a Blast Weapon is not a roll To Hit, so the Preferred Enemy rule would not apply. As for the re-rolls, not only is a Blast not a roll To Hit, the Preferred Enemy does not allow you to re-roll failed hits in general, only rolls of 1.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
According to the rules as written it allows a Reroll, as the rules only ask whether you had the ability to reroll blasts, not how good an ability you hve.

Some posters dispute this, but have no rules backing that stands up to any scrutiny, just assertions.

Nos, would gaining a reroll for blasts vis spirit mark constitute a 'benefit'. Look at the hemlock fighter entry in the Yanden Supplement. It seems to specifically disallow things like preferred enemy to gain the re-roll (except if you wouldn't classify rerolling as a 'benefit').

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:
Conclusion: As stated above, a Blast Weapon is not a roll To Hit, so the Preferred Enemy rule would not apply. As for the re-rolls, not only is a Blast not a roll To Hit, the Preferred Enemy does not allow you to re-roll failed hits in general, only rolls of 1.

Slight correction, see underlined.
The rule allowing you to re-roll blasts says you must have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls. It never mentions failed To Hit rolls, that's something you've incorrectly added into your conclusion.

By this conclusion, with the correction added above, no ability is allowed to re-roll with Blasts. Which is a good indication this conclusion is flawed.

I understand exactly what you're saying, I touched on the re-roll as it was mentioned earlier. I am yet to see any evidence to support this argument in favour of re-rolling PE.

However, you've actualt supported my argument there. PE is not a roll To Hit, so how on earth is it flawed?

PE does give a reroll to hit. If you're discounting PE from using that rule how are you allowing anything to use the blasts and rerolls rule? For instance Prescience does that work?

No, if you don't roll a 1, you do not have the ability to reroll. so nothing for blast to work with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:
Conclusion: As stated above, a Blast Weapon is not a roll To Hit, so the Preferred Enemy rule would not apply. As for the re-rolls, not only is a Blast not a roll To Hit, the Preferred Enemy does not allow you to re-roll failed hits in general, only rolls of 1.

Slight correction, see underlined.
The rule allowing you to re-roll blasts says you must have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls. It never mentions failed To Hit rolls, that's something you've incorrectly added into your conclusion.

By this conclusion, with the correction added above, no ability is allowed to re-roll with Blasts. Which is a good indication this conclusion is flawed.

and you know that to be wrong as you quoted other abilities that work with blasts in a different thread. if nothing else, twin linked definitely, and unarguably, is an ability that works with blasts.

 FlingitNow wrote:
PE does give a reroll to hit. If you're discounting PE from using that rule how are you allowing anything to use the blasts and rerolls rule? For instance Prescience does that work?

Yes that's exactly my point. Does a PE weapon state that you can re-roll ALL failed to hit rolls?

Or does it specifically say ROLLS OF 1?

Still no rules/evidence coming from the guys who are trying to support this argument.

Why does ALL FAILED matter? Why is failed relevant at all?

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
PE does give a reroll to hit. If you're discounting PE from using that rule how are you allowing anything to use the blasts and rerolls rule? For instance Prescience does that work?

Yes that's exactly my point. Does a PE weapon state that you can re-roll ALL failed to hit rolls?

Or does it specifically say ROLLS OF 1?

Still no rules/evidence coming from the guys who are trying to support this argument.

You're inserting words in the Blast rules that don't exist.
"If a weapon has the ability to reroll it's rolls To Hit" - unqualified. Meaning one of two things - either you must be able to reroll all rolls to hit, or it doesn't matter how often, as long as you can do it.
The former makes no sense as then only Twin Linked would be able to reroll (since it has it's own rules) and every other ability I've ever seen uses the word "failed" not "all".
Therefore it must be the second one. As I've said, PE does allow rerolls of (some) To Hit rolls.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why does ALL FAILED matter? Why is failed relevant at all?

Why would you re-roll a non failed hit?

My point is, PE allows you to re-roll a 1, not a failed scatter.

If you are trying to support this would you mind quoting a rule?

What is a failed scatter?

Both Prescience and PE give a reroll to hit. Both have a conditional criteria to trigger that reroll, a criteria that you can not meet with a blast scatter. Those criteria are:

Prescience: reroll FAILED To Hit.
PE: reroll 1s To Hit.

Using the rules below explain why 1 criteria has a different result than the other:

Blast Weapons:
"When firing a Blast Weapon models do not roll To Hit."

Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls:
"If a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast Weapon, the player must re-roll both the Scatter Dice and the 2D6."

Preferred Enemy:
"A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking it's Preferred Enemy."

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why does ALL FAILED matter? Why is failed relevant at all?

Why would you re-roll a non failed hit?

My point is, PE allows you to re-roll a 1, not a failed scatter.

If you are trying to support this would you mind quoting a rule?

The rules have been quoted.
And you're the one inserting the word "failed" - the blast rule doesn't have it.
Answer this with a yes or no:
Does Preferred Enemy allow rerolls of a weapon's To Hit?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
According to the rules as written it allows a Reroll, as the rules only ask whether you had the ability to reroll blasts, not how good an ability you hve.

Some posters dispute this, but have no rules backing that stands up to any scrutiny, just assertions.

You mean the Preferred enemy rule, that only allows re-rolls of 1 (when rolling To Hit)?
The RaW is below:
You only have the ability to Re-roll, once you've rolled a 1. (PE)
You only have the ability to Re-roll, once you've failed To Hit. (Prescience)

I will not give any more arguments as the above is just RaW from these two rules.

I'll leave it as agree to disagree, as this debate has been covered enough times already.

 BlackTalos wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
According to the rules as written it allows a Reroll, as the rules only ask whether you had the ability to reroll blasts, not how good an ability you hve.

Some posters dispute this, but have no rules backing that stands up to any scrutiny, just assertions.

You mean the Preferred enemy rule, that only allows re-rolls of 1 (when rolling To Hit)?
The RaW is below:
You only have the ability to Re-roll, once you've rolled a 1. (PE)
You only have the ability to Re-roll, once you've failed To Hit. (Prescience)

I will not give any more arguments as the above is just RaW from these two rules.

I'll leave it as agree to disagree, as this debate has been covered enough times already.

Precisely. As far as Blasts go Prescience and PE are both equally powerful rerolls.

Yet again, why are people talking about Prescience? Did the OP mention prescience?

It's a simple question, does a scatter dice roll a 1 to hit? No.

So how could PE work here?

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:
Yet again, why are people talking about Prescience? Did the OP mention prescience?

Because your argument makes the Blasts and Rerolls rule irrelevant. Using your argument, a reroll ability would have to be able to reroll any To Hit roll, not just failed ones. There aren't any of those. Twin Linked would be allowed because it has it's own rules.

It's a simple question, does a scatter dice roll a 1 to hit? No.

So how could PE work here?

So you're deliberately not reading posts and answering questions therein? Cool. I'll wait until you do.

Does the model have the ability to Reroll its hit? Yes. Absolutely.

Please find where the rules state you have to have rolled To hit. Page and graph.

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:
Yet again, why are people talking about Prescience? Did the OP mention prescience?

It's a simple question, does a scatter dice roll a 1 to hit? No.

So how could PE work here?

We mention Prescience because it illustrates the point. Your refusal to actually discuss the points raised perfectly illustrates that you are not interested in discussing the rules and that you know our interpretation is correct. If you do not wish to discuss the rules why are you even posting on the YMDC forum?

 BlackTalos wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
According to the rules as written it allows a Reroll, as the rules only ask whether you had the ability to reroll blasts, not how good an ability you hve.

Some posters dispute this, but have no rules backing that stands up to any scrutiny, just assertions.

You mean the Preferred enemy rule, that only allows re-rolls of 1 (when rolling To Hit)?
The RaW is below:
You only have the ability to Re-roll, once you've rolled a 1. (PE)
You only have the ability to Re-roll, once you've failed To Hit. (Prescience)

I will not give any more arguments as the above is just RaW from these two rules.

I'll leave it as agree to disagree, as this debate has been covered enough times already.

That isn't raw that is your interpretation of the rule. RAW of the rule Preferred enemy is "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy. This applies both to shooting and close combat attacks." If a unit has Preferred Enemy they always have the ability for a re-roll but when they get to re-roll is restricted.

Is there anybody out there with an actual rule snippet that states clearly that the Preffered Enemy rule 'which allows re-rolls of ONE' can allow a scatter roll to be re-rolled?

Every single one of you is STILL arguing with no evidence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You have the ability to re-roll when the 1 is rolled, as somebody stated above.

Yes we've quoted it many times. Here you go again:

Blast Weapons:
"When firing a Blast Weapon models do not roll To Hit."

Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls:
"If a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast Weapon, the player must re-roll both the Scatter Dice and the 2D6."

Preferred Enemy:
"A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking it's Preferred Enemy."

Still failing to actually argue against points raised I see. So again why post on YMDC when you aren't interested in discussing the rules?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yes we've quoted it many times. Here you go again:

Blast Weapons:
"When firing a Blast Weapon models do not roll To Hit."

Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls:
"If a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast Weapon, the player must re-roll both the Scatter Dice and the 2D6."

Preferred Enemy:
"A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking it's Preferred Enemy."

Still failing to actually argue against points raised I see. So again why post on YMDC when you aren't interested in discussing the rules?

No, actually I'm failing to see how any of the above states that you can re-roll regardless of whether it's a 1 or not.

Does PE have the ability to re-roll hits in general, or just the rolls of 1?

If you are trying to argue it can re-roll scatters you might as well re-roll 2's as well. Because it doesn't say you can't, right?

Does Prescience have the ability to re-roll hits in general, or just the failed to hits?

Indeed the above is true for all rerolling to hit abilities they all have a trigger, normally failed to hits, sometimes a specific number.

Are you contesting this rule never does anything?

Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls:
"If a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast Weapon, the player must re-roll both the Scatter Dice and the 2D6."

 FlingitNow wrote:
Does Prescience have the ability to re-roll hits in general, or just the failed to hits?

Indeed the above is true for all rerolling to hit abilities they all have a trigger, normally failed to hits, sometimes a specific number.

Are you contesting this rule never does anything?

Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls:
"If a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast Weapon, the player must re-roll both the Scatter Dice and the 2D6."

I think you have the wrong post, the OP never mentioned anything about Prescience.

You are trying to argue that a rule that clearly states 'ROLLS OF 1' can re-roll scatter dice, yet you can't quote a rule that states this.

As you said, the PE trigger is 1, not a failed scatter dice.

What is a "failed scatter dice" you keep mentioning it where is it defined in the rules? So you're clearly just trolling now as you continue to refuse to discuss the points raised.

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Does Prescience have the ability to re-roll hits in general, or just the failed to hits?

Indeed the above is true for all rerolling to hit abilities they all have a trigger, normally failed to hits, sometimes a specific number.

Are you contesting this rule never does anything?

Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls:
"If a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast Weapon, the player must re-roll both the Scatter Dice and the 2D6."

I think you have the wrong post, the OP never mentioned anything about Prescience.

You are trying to argue that a rule that clearly states 'ROLLS OF 1' can re-roll scatter dice, yet you can't quote a rule that states this.

As you said, the PE trigger is 1, not a failed scatter dice.

If a model has an ability to re-roll all failed To Hit rolls, can it re-roll Blast scatter?

 Happyjew wrote:

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Does Prescience have the ability to re-roll hits in general, or just the failed to hits?

Indeed the above is true for all rerolling to hit abilities they all have a trigger, normally failed to hits, sometimes a specific number.

Are you contesting this rule never does anything?

Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls:
"If a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast Weapon, the player must re-roll both the Scatter Dice and the 2D6."

I think you have the wrong post, the OP never mentioned anything about Prescience.

You are trying to argue that a rule that clearly states 'ROLLS OF 1' can re-roll scatter dice, yet you can't quote a rule that states this.

As you said, the PE trigger is 1, not a failed scatter dice.

If a model has an ability to re-roll all failed To Hit rolls, can it re-roll Blast scatter?

Yes it can, see the rule 'Blasts and Re-Rolls' as quoted above. However the Preferred Enemy rule does not alloy you to re-roll failed hits, it only allows re-rolls of 1, for some reason a few people in this post can't understand that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:
What is a "failed scatter dice" you keep mentioning it where is it defined in the rules? So you're clearly just trolling now as you continue to refuse to discuss the points raised.

A failed scatter would be a Blast Template that has scattered beyond your intended target. As stated in the rules, if I have a rule which allows me to re-roll failed to-hits, I can they choose to re-roll this. However PE doesn't allow me to re-roll failed hits, it only allows me to re-roll dice rolls of 1, which obviously can't happen when Roll to scatter as the Dice rolls are measurements, not rolls to hit.

A failed scatter would be a Blast Template that has scattered beyond your intended target. As stated in the rules, if I have a rule which allows me to re-roll failed to-hits, I can they choose to re-roll this.

You've invented that definition. Unless you have a rules quote to support it? Also rerolling failed to hits is only trigger by a failed to hit. Blast weapons don't roll to hit so don't you won't get a failed to hit anymore than you'll get a 1 to hit. So why does one work and not the other?

 FlingitNow wrote:

A failed scatter would be a Blast Template that has scattered beyond your intended target. As stated in the rules, if I have a rule which allows me to re-roll failed to-hits, I can they choose to re-roll this.

You've invented that definition. Unless you have a rules quote to support it? Also rerolling failed to hits is only trigger by a failed to hit. Blast weapons don't roll to hit so don't you won't get a failed to hit anymore than you'll get a 1 to hit. So why does one work and not the other?

Why would I choose to re-roll a successful scatter? Tangent much, are you sure you aren't trolling me? You've just hit the nail on the head here exactly "Also rerolling failed to hits is only trigger by a failed to hit. Blast weapons don't roll to hit so don't you won't get a failed to hit anymore than you'll get a 1 to hit"

The 'Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls' rule that you're trying to use against me here does not at all state that a Blast Weapon is a roll to hit. It states that if a particular model has the ability to re-roll it's to-hit rolls, it can use this ability here.

However, the preferred enemy rules states that you can ONLY re-roll to-hit rolls of 1.

I never said you would choose to reroll a successful scatter (another invented term). However the blasts and rerolls rule never mentions failed or successful To Hit rolls and therefore does not care about them which brings us to...

The 'Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls' rule that you're trying to use against me here does not at all state that a Blast Weapon is a roll to hit. It states that if a particular model has the ability to re-roll it's to-hit rolls, it can use this ability here.

However, the preferred enemy rules states that you can ONLY re-roll to-hit rolls of 1.

And Prescience states that you can ONLY re-roll failed To Hit rolls. So why are you treating that differently?

 FlingitNow wrote:
I never said you would choose to reroll a successful scatter (another invented term). However the blasts and rerolls rule never mentions failed or successful To Hit rolls and therefore does not care about them which brings us to...

The 'Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls' rule that you're trying to use against me here does not at all state that a Blast Weapon is a roll to hit. It states that if a particular model has the ability to re-roll it's to-hit rolls, it can use this ability here.

However, the preferred enemy rules states that you can ONLY re-roll to-hit rolls of 1.

And Prescience states that you can ONLY re-roll failed To Hit rolls. So why are you treating that differently?

I am reading the rules for Preferred Enemy, Blasts and Blasts & Re-Rolls. If I was in the OP's situation why would I be looking for the Prescience rule? Why are we talking about the Prescience rule? That is it's own rule.

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
I never said you would choose to reroll a successful scatter (another invented term). However the blasts and rerolls rule never mentions failed or successful To Hit rolls and therefore does not care about them which brings us to...

The 'Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls' rule that you're trying to use against me here does not at all state that a Blast Weapon is a roll to hit. It states that if a particular model has the ability to re-roll it's to-hit rolls, it can use this ability here.

However, the preferred enemy rules states that you can ONLY re-roll to-hit rolls of 1.

And Prescience states that you can ONLY re-roll failed To Hit rolls. So why are you treating that differently?

I am reading the rules for Preferred Enemy, Blasts and Blasts & Re-Rolls. If I was in the OP's situation why would I be looking for the Prescience rule? Why are we talking about the Prescience rule? That is it's own rule.

Because your interpretation leads to the blast rule as non-functional. If you must meet the requirement of Preferred Enemy (roll a 1) to get t he r-roll, you must also met the requirements of all special rules that grant re-rolls (almost all of which require a failed roll). As such, with the exception of Twin-linked (which has permission via Twin-linked itself).

Because you claimed:

RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

Happyjew wrote: If a model has an ability to re-roll all failed To Hit rolls, can it re-roll Blast scatter?

Yes it can, see the rule 'Blasts and Re-Rolls' as quoted above. However the Preferred Enemy rule does not alloy you to re-roll failed hits, it only allows re-rolls of 1, for some reason a few people in this post can't understand that.

So you're saying that the blasts and rerolls rule works when youhave a reroll based on the criteria "failed To Hit" but not "1s To Hit". I'm asking why and have been for more than a page now and you keep refusing to answer. Why?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Because you claimed:

RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

Happyjew wrote: If a model has an ability to re-roll all failed To Hit rolls, can it re-roll Blast scatter?

Yes it can, see the rule 'Blasts and Re-Rolls' as quoted above. However the Preferred Enemy rule does not alloy you to re-roll failed hits, it only allows re-rolls of 1, for some reason a few people in this post can't understand that.

So you're saying that the blasts and rerolls rule works when youhave a reroll based on the criteria "failed To Hit" but not "1s To Hit". I'm asking why and have been for more than a page now and you keep refusing to answer. Why?

Yes, I am saying that, and if you read above you will see this:

"The 'Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls' rule does not at all state that a Blast Weapon is a roll to hit. It states that if a particular model has the ability to re-roll it's to-hit rolls, it can use this ability here"

But the PE rule does not allow you to re-roll failed to-hit rolls in general, does it? No. It allows you to re-roll failed 1's.

Why does reroll failed to hit rolls matter? What makes failed to hit an acceptable criteria but not 1s?

 Happyjew wrote:

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
I never said you would choose to reroll a successful scatter (another invented term). However the blasts and rerolls rule never mentions failed or successful To Hit rolls and therefore does not care about them which brings us to...

The 'Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls' rule that you're trying to use against me here does not at all state that a Blast Weapon is a roll to hit. It states that if a particular model has the ability to re-roll it's to-hit rolls, it can use this ability here.

However, the preferred enemy rules states that you can ONLY re-roll to-hit rolls of 1.

And Prescience states that you can ONLY re-roll failed To Hit rolls. So why are you treating that differently?

I am reading the rules for Preferred Enemy, Blasts and Blasts & Re-Rolls. If I was in the OP's situation why would I be looking for the Prescience rule? Why are we talking about the Prescience rule? That is it's own rule.

Because your interpretation leads to the blast rule as non-functional. If you must meet the requirement of Preferred Enemy (roll a 1) to get t he r-roll, you must also met the requirements of all special rules that grant re-rolls (almost all of which require a failed roll). As such, with the exception of Twin-linked (which has permission via Twin-linked itself).

twin linked and ammo runts. the blast rule is functional, just not as functional as you want to make it.

But speaking of ammo runts and RAW, if you allow PE to reroll blasts you allow a model that bought a ammo runt to reroll it's blasts all game long. Because once the runt is bought, the model has the ability to reroll "it's to hit roll" once per game. If needing to roll a 1 is an irrelevant requirement to gain the ability to reroll, then the once per game is just as irrelevant. Because Blasts don't care about the conditions right? the model has the reroll ability, and it can reroll all the blasts it wants because it also never once rerolls a to hit roll, never, not even once.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why does reroll failed to hit rolls matter? What makes failed to hit an acceptable criteria but not 1s?

Because does the PE say that you can re-roll failed hits in general, or just 1's?

It specifically says, 1's. You guys are taking it upon yourselfes and stating that Blasts are an exception to this... if the rule said 'however this is not the case for blasts etc' there wouldn't be a problem... but it doesn't mention blasts.

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why does reroll failed to hit rolls matter? What makes failed to hit an acceptable criteria but not 1s?

Because does the PE say that you can re-roll failed hits in general, or just 1's?

It specifically says, 1's. You guys are taking it upon yourselfes and stating that Blasts are an exception to this... if the rule said 'however this is not the case for blasts etc' there wouldn't be a problem... but it doesn't mention blasts.

So if I cannot roll a 1 To Hit, I cannot re-roll, correct? If I cannot roll a failed To Hit, I can re-roll, correct? How are these different? In both cases I have a re-roll correct?

 Happyjew wrote:

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why does reroll failed to hit rolls matter? What makes failed to hit an acceptable criteria but not 1s?

Because does the PE say that you can re-roll failed hits in general, or just 1's?

It specifically says, 1's. You guys are taking it upon yourselfes and stating that Blasts are an exception to this... if the rule said 'however this is not the case for blasts etc' there wouldn't be a problem... but it doesn't mention blasts.

So if I cannot roll a 1 To Hit, I cannot re-roll, correct? If I cannot roll a failed To Hit, I can re-roll, correct? How are these different? In both cases I have a re-roll correct?

If you have a model with a rule that allows you to re-roll failed to hit rolls, these models in particular can use this here - as stated in the 'Blasts and Re-Rolls' rule.

However the PE rule doesn't allow you to re-roll failed to hit does it. It always you to re-roll a D6 when a roll of 1 is made.

So if a model that has BS 5 rolls a 1, did it miss?

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why does reroll failed to hit rolls matter? What makes failed to hit an acceptable criteria but not 1s?

Because does the PE say that you can re-roll failed hits in general, or just 1's?

It specifically says, 1's. You guys are taking it upon yourselfes and stating that Blasts are an exception to this... if the rule said 'however this is not the case for blasts etc' there wouldn't be a problem... but it doesn't mention blasts.

I'll try and put it another way for you, which might help. Let's have 3 almost imaginary situations:

1) Your model has the ability to re-roll any roll To Hit, whether it hit or missed.
2) Your model has the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls that did not Hit (Prescience, and other rules).
3) Your model has the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls of 1 that did not Hit (PE).

Per the Blast rule, it is clear the 1) is allowed: "If a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit"

You are however claiming that 2) is also possible? But it's not just "has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit", it is now "has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit that did not Hit".
You are then claiming that 3) is not possible? But it's not just "has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit" either, it is now "has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit of 1 that did not Hit".

The only reason prescience is an example is because it has the same wording as PE but is not as specific. Allow one and you allow the other.

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why does reroll failed to hit rolls matter? What makes failed to hit an acceptable criteria but not 1s?

Because does the PE say that you can re-roll failed hits in general, or just 1's?

It specifically says, 1's. You guys are taking it upon yourselfes and stating that Blasts are an exception to this... if the rule said 'however this is not the case for blasts etc' there wouldn't be a problem... but it doesn't mention blasts.

Are you incapable of discussing the matter at hand? Stop stating irrelevant things, stop making claims you know to be false. The first sentence is irrelevant, the second an outright lie as we've NEVER stated that. So can you actually answer the question asked?

Why does reroll failed hits matter? What in the blasts and rerolls rule states it cares at all about failed hits.

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why does reroll failed to hit rolls matter? What makes failed to hit an acceptable criteria but not 1s?

Because does the PE say that you can re-roll failed hits in general, or just 1's?

It specifically says, 1's. You guys are taking it upon yourselfes and stating that Blasts are an exception to this... if the rule said 'however this is not the case for blasts etc' there wouldn't be a problem... but it doesn't mention blasts.

It is irrelevant what PE requires on the to hit. Because, as PROVEN the actual Reroll rule only cares about the ability to Reroll to hit

Which PE, proven, gives you.

You don't appear to understand the difference between a qualified requirement and an unqualified one. Blasts and rerolls is the latter. This is factual.

Please do not reply if this was not aimed at me:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Does the model have the ability to Reroll its hit? Yes. Absolutely.

Please find where the rules state you have to have rolled To hit. Page and graph.

"A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy." (PE)
"the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls"(Prescience)
"Weapons with the Master-crafted special rule allow the bearer to re-roll one failed roll To Hit per turn with that weapon."

All 3 rules above clearly require a condition to be met before the Re-roll exists. The "ability to re-roll" only exists once that condition is met.

Otherwise models with Master-crafted "have the ability" when they rolled all 3 dice To Hit with Assault 3 (and the same goes for Blast).

No, they have an ability. That the ability has a condition is irrelevant.

Proven, over and over again.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why does reroll failed to hit rolls matter? What makes failed to hit an acceptable criteria but not 1s?

Because does the PE say that you can re-roll failed hits in general, or just 1's?

It specifically says, 1's. You guys are taking it upon yourselfes and stating that Blasts are an exception to this... if the rule said 'however this is not the case for blasts etc' there wouldn't be a problem... but it doesn't mention blasts.

Are you incapable of discussing the matter at hand? Stop stating irrelevant things, stop making claims you know to be false. The first sentence is irrelevant, the second an outright lie as we've NEVER stated that. So can you actually answer the question asked?

Why does reroll failed hits matter? What in the blasts and rerolls rule states it cares at all about failed hits.

Wow, how is that an irrelevant thing? How is that a claim I know to be false? It's literally the ONLY thing that the PE rule states, yet you STILL assume it means any failed to hit can be re-rolled.

As stated above, the Blast and Re-Rolls rule does not state that a Blast Weapon is a roll to-hit; that would be very contradictory to the Blast rule which clearly states this. It does however state that should your model have the ability to re-roll it's to hit rolls, it can use this ability here. PE does not have the ability to re-roll it's to hit rolls, it simply does not. Otherwise would you accept a re-roll of 2 when firing with a non blast weapon? Of course you wouldn't. Because it's not ALL hits, it's 1's

Again, you're not understanding a qualified vs unqualified rule. The blasts and rerolls rules doesn't apply any qualifier on "how good" your Reroll has to be.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, they have an ability. That the ability has a condition is irrelevant.

Proven, over and over again.

Proven by who? Are you implying the PE ability can be used irrelivent of dice roll? Even though the Warhammer 40K Rule Book specifically states re-rolls of 1?

No, try reading more thoroughly.

The blast Reroll doesn't care how good your ability to Reroll to-hit is.

As has been proven. If you disagree, find where the blast and Reroll imoses a condition on how good your Reroll needs to be. I'll wait. Page and graph.

This was settled a long time ago -you're making exactly the same debunked argument.

Wow, how is that an irrelevant thing? How is that a claim I know to be false? It's literally the ONLY thing that the PE rule states, yet you STILL assume it means any failed to hit can be re-rolled.

It is irrelevant because my question wasn't about how PE works. Do you even understand English? Then the lie again. Stop lying no one has ever stated that PE means you can reroll any failed to hit rolls.

As stated above, the Blast and Re-Rolls rule does not state that a Blast Weapon is a roll to-hit; that would be very contradictory to the Blast rule which clearly states this. It does however state that should your model have the ability to re-roll it's to hit rolls, it can use this ability here. PE does not have the ability to re-roll it's to hit rolls, it simply does not. Otherwise would you accept a re-roll of 2 when firing with a non blast weapon? Of course you wouldn't. Because it's not ALL hits, it's 1's

So we agree that the blast weapon roll is not a roll to hit. So why does the trigger "failed To Hit" work? Is the trigger irrelevant due to the blast weapons not being a To Hit roll?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, try reading more thoroughly.

The blast Reroll doesn't care how good your ability to Reroll to-hit is.

As has been proven. If you disagree, find where the blast and Reroll imoses a condition on how good your Reroll needs to be. I'll wait. Page and graph.

This was settled a long time ago -you're making exactly the same debunked argument.

Whether or not the blast re-roll rule cares or not how good a roll is isn't for any user on this forum to decide. All we can do is take what it says and compare it to what we have. When shooting does the TL rule allow one to re-roll all failed to hit rolls? Yes. Does the PE ability? No, only 1's. As a whole, the PE ability simply is not a re-roll of all failed to hits.

Proven by who? Users of 40K forums or somebody official?

Sigh. Again, please show where Blasts and rerolls gives two hoots about whether you Reroll all failed, failed on a one, or all to hit rolls of a two every second Thursday.

The actual rule states no conditions on the to hit. Just that you have the"ability" tore roll. Indisputably PE grants an ability to Reroll

Your last query is telling of your attitude.

RedEyeJedi, did you have a look at this?

 BlackTalos wrote:

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why does reroll failed to hit rolls matter? What makes failed to hit an acceptable criteria but not 1s?

Because does the PE say that you can re-roll failed hits in general, or just 1's?

It specifically says, 1's. You guys are taking it upon yourselfes and stating that Blasts are an exception to this... if the rule said 'however this is not the case for blasts etc' there wouldn't be a problem... but it doesn't mention blasts.

I'll try and put it another way for you, which might help. Let's have 3 almost imaginary situations:

1) Your model has the ability to re-roll any roll To Hit, whether it hit or missed.
2) Your model has the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls that did not Hit (Prescience, and other rules).
3) Your model has the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls of 1 that did not Hit (PE).

Per the Blast rule, it is clear the 1) is allowed: "If a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit"

You are however claiming that 2) is also possible? But it's not just "has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit", it is now "has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit that did not Hit".
You are then claiming that 3) is not possible? But it's not just "has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit" either, it is now "has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit of 1 that did not Hit".

The only reason prescience is an example is because it has the same wording as PE but is not as specific. Allow one and you allow the other.

Again you've refused to tell us why you think rerolling all FAILED to hits is important. Why does "failed To Hit" rolls trigger blasts and rerolls when you can never have a "failed To Hit" for blasts?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Wow, how is that an irrelevant thing? How is that a claim I know to be false? It's literally the ONLY thing that the PE rule states, yet you STILL assume it means any failed to hit can be re-rolled.

It is irrelevant because my question wasn't about how PE works. Do you even understand English? Then the lie again. Stop lying no one has ever stated that PE means you can reroll any failed to hit rolls.

As stated above, the Blast and Re-Rolls rule does not state that a Blast Weapon is a roll to-hit; that would be very contradictory to the Blast rule which clearly states this. It does however state that should your model have the ability to re-roll it's to hit rolls, it can use this ability here. PE does not have the ability to re-roll it's to hit rolls, it simply does not. Otherwise would you accept a re-roll of 2 when firing with a non blast weapon? Of course you wouldn't. Because it's not ALL hits, it's 1's

So we agree that the blast weapon roll is not a roll to hit. So why does the trigger "failed To Hit" work? Is the trigger irrelevant due to the blast weapons not being a To Hit roll?

Firstly, yes we do agree that it's not a roll to hit, which comes with my second point; that the PE ability allows to hit rolls of 1 to be re-rolled, but the blast isn't a roll to hit so how is this possible?

What the rule states is that if a model in particular had the ability to re-roll it's failed to-hits (Even though the blast isn't to-hit) it may use this ability here. PE doesn't have this. It has to-hits of 1.

No, that's you getting the rule wrong. The rule doesn't mention failed anywhere.

Serious query - have you read, accurately, the quoted rule? If so, can you please point out where "failed" is used? Page and graph.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sigh. Again, please show where Blasts and rerolls gives two hoots about whether you Reroll all failed, failed on a one, or all to hit rolls of a two every second Thursday.

The actual rule states no conditions on the to hit. Just that you have the"ability" tore roll. Indisputably PE grants an ability to Reroll

Your last query is telling of your attitude.

No, the rules states 'If a model has to ability to re-roll it's rolls to hit'. Does PE have this?

If a friend asked you to explain the PE rule would you say that or would say specifically rolls of 1?

What the rule states is that if a model in particular had the ability to re-roll it's failed to-hits (Even though the blast isn't to-hit) it may use this ability here.

What rule states this. Please quote it and highlight the part that says reroll failed To Hit rolls please.

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sigh. Again, please show where Blasts and rerolls gives two hoots about whether you Reroll all failed, failed on a one, or all to hit rolls of a two every second Thursday.

The actual rule states no conditions on the to hit. Just that you have the"ability" tore roll. Indisputably PE grants an ability to Reroll

Your last query is telling of your attitude.

No, the rules states 'If a model has to ability to re-roll it's rolls to hit'. Does PE have this?

If a friend asked you to explain the PE rule would you say that or would say specifically rolls of 1?

Yes, it has an ability to Reroll its rolls to hit. If I was asked if it has a specific qualified Reroll I would a
Explain it.

In context of the debate though the first is sufficient to prove that it triggers the blasts and rerolls rule. Proven, again.

Now, do you have anything to prove your assertion? Or to explain why all failed somehow allows a Reroll, when failed of a one doesn't? Given the actual rule doesn't even mention the weird faile?

It's ok to admit youre in error,

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, that's you getting the rule wrong. The rule doesn't mention failed anywhere.

Serious query - have you read, accurately, the quoted rule? If so, can you please point out where "failed" is used? Page and graph.

The word failed is in the PE rule, I'm not quoting it again.

It isn't in the blast and Reroll rule.

That doesn't care about "failed" , so why are you stating it does?

 FlingitNow wrote:

What the rule states is that if a model in particular had the ability to re-roll it's failed to-hits (Even though the blast isn't to-hit) it may use this ability here.

What rule states this. Please quote it and highlight the part that says reroll failed To Hit rolls please.

Yet another tangent. Why on earth would somebody re-roll a successful hit?

Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls:
"If a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast Weapon, the player must re-roll both the Scatter Dice and the 2D6."

Where inside that rule does it state that "We don't mind if you have the ability to re-roll all failed to hits or just rolls of 1" it doesn't! The PE isn't a re-roll of all failed to hits, you can't just take this rule as decide the PE rule applies here.

RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Wow, how is that an irrelevant thing? How is that a claim I know to be false? It's literally the ONLY thing that the PE rule states, yet you STILL assume it means any failed to hit can be re-rolled.

It is irrelevant because my question wasn't about how PE works. Do you even understand English? Then the lie again. Stop lying no one has ever stated that PE means you can reroll any failed to hit rolls.

As stated above, the Blast and Re-Rolls rule does not state that a Blast Weapon is a roll to-hit; that would be very contradictory to the Blast rule which clearly states this. It does however state that should your model have the ability to re-roll it's to hit rolls, it can use this ability here. PE does not have the ability to re-roll it's to hit rolls, it simply does not. Otherwise would you accept a re-roll of 2 when firing with a non blast weapon? Of course you wouldn't. Because it's not ALL hits, it's 1's

So we agree that the blast weapon roll is not a roll to hit. So why does the trigger "failed To Hit" work? Is the trigger irrelevant due to the blast weapons not being a To Hit roll?

Firstly, yes we do agree that it's not a roll to hit, which comes with my second point; that the PE ability allows to hit rolls of 1 to be re-rolled, but the blast isn't a roll to hit so how is this possible?

What the rule states is that if a model in particular had the ability to re-roll it's failed to-hits (Even though the blast isn't to-hit) it may use this ability here. PE doesn't have this. It has to-hits of 1.

RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, that's you getting the rule wrong. The rule doesn't mention failed anywhere.

Serious query - have you read, accurately, the quoted rule? If so, can you please point out where "failed" is used? Page and graph.

The word failed is in the PE rule, I'm not quoting it again.

You were not talking about the PE rule , do not lie

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, that's you getting the rule wrong. The rule doesn't mention failed anywhere.

Serious query - have you read, accurately, the quoted rule? If so, can you please point out where "failed" is used? Page and graph.

The word failed is in the PE rule, I'm not quoting it again.

Do you have a rules quote to support this claim:

RedEyeJedi21 wrote: What the rule states is that if a model in particular had the ability to re-roll it's failed to-hits (Even though the blast isn't to-hit) it may use this ability here.

Again I want you to highlight the part that says "failed To Hit roll".

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

What the rule states is that if a model in particular had the ability to re-roll it's failed to-hits (Even though the blast isn't to-hit) it may use this ability here.

What rule states this. Please quote it and highlight the part that says reroll failed To Hit rolls please.

Yet another tangent. Why on earth would somebody re-roll a successful hit?

Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls:
"If a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast Weapon, the player must re-roll both the Scatter Dice and the 2D6."

Where inside that rule does it state that "We don't mind if you have the ability to re-roll all failed to hits or just rolls of 1" it doesn't! The PE isn't a re-roll of all failed to hits, you can't just take this rule as decide the PE rule applies here.

It's not a tangent.

Thank you for proving you are not using actual rules, just your made up version of what you think they say

The actual rule places NO CONDITIONS on the rerolls. You are placing a condition. You are therefor in error.

I'm not trying to cover it up I can see what I said and yous are making a mountain out of a mole hill. I'm speaking AS if somebody would not choose to re-roll a successful hit.

Correction: The rule states that if you have the ability to re-roll rolls to-hit. ...not failed guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not placing a condition. It says that if my model has the ability to re-roll my rolls to-hit.

It's a yes or no answer, there is no if or but about it.

Does the PE rule allow to to re-roll all failed to hits? NO!

Only rolls of 1!

Ok, now you've admitted an error, can you now point out where, in the Blasts and Reroll rule, it mentions needing any specific drpegree of ability to Reroll?

If I ask you "do you have the ability to throw a ball?" And you say "only 29 metres" , could you not simply have said "yes"?

I didn't ask HOW FAR you can throw a ball, did I?

So why do you assert - despite evidence to the contrary - that the blast and Reroll rule DOES place a condition?

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

What the rule states is that if a model in particular had the ability to re-roll it's failed to-hits (Even though the blast isn't to-hit) it may use this ability here.

What rule states this. Please quote it and highlight the part that says reroll failed To Hit rolls please.

Yet another tangent. Why on earth would somebody re-roll a successful hit?

Because they want to miss? Why does that matter. Asking you to support a claim you have made is not a tangent asking irrelevant questions about why someone wants to do something is.

Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls:
"If a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast Weapon, the player must re-roll both the Scatter Dice and the 2D6."

Where inside that rule does it state that "We don't mind if you have the ability to re-roll all failed to hits or just rolls of 1" it doesn't! The PE isn't a re-roll of all failed to hits, you can't just take this rule as decide the PE rule applies here.

Where in that rule does it say rerolling failed To Hit rolls? Highlight it for me. Or were you lying when you said "What the rule states is that if a model in particular had the ability to re-roll it's failed to-hits (Even though the blast isn't to-hit) it may use this ability here."

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

I'm not placing a condition. It says that if my model has the ability to re-roll my rolls to-hit.

It's a yes or no answer, there is no if or but about it.

Does the PE rule allow to to re-roll all failed to hits? NO!

Only rolls of 1!

Can you read my last post? It describes the current situation and might help?

I'm not placing a condition. It says that if my model has the ability to re-roll my rolls to-hit.

It's a yes or no answer, there is no if or but about it.

Does the PE rule allow to to re-roll all failed to hits? NO!

Only rolls of 1!

So an ability that allowed you to reroll failed to hit rolls also wouldn't trigger that rule correct?

It says that if my model has the ability to re-roll my rolls to-hit.

It's a yes or no answer, there is no if or but about it.

Does the rule allow to to re-roll all failed to hits? NO!

Only failed To Hits.

Usually no. But because the rule has made an exception to this by stating that 'if a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls to hit' this can be used here. The PE rule isn't a re-roll of to hit rolls in general, it's a re-roll of failed 1 hits.

So only Twin-Linked works, as all other rules require ether a failed 1 or just a failed Hit right?

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:
Usually no. But because the rule has made an exception to this by stating that 'if a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls to hit' this can be used here. The PE rule isn't a re-roll of to hit rolls in general, it's a re-roll of failed 1 hits.

It doesn't say failed To Hits though so why does that trigger the rule? Is the qualifier "failed" irrelevant?

It would trigger the rule for this reason: If I asked you to give me an example of a rule where you can re-roll your rolls to hit, would you say PE? I would imagine no, as PE doesn't give you this ability. It gives you the ability to re-roll failed 1's

So, RedEyeJedi21, as (hopefully) it is clear now that this is an "all or nothing" situation, and that i do believe, as you do, that PE does not grant the "ability to re-roll" until a 1 is rolled, just like other re-rolls granted by "misses" need you to "miss" before you can get the ability, i will continue answering the following:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, they have an ability. That the ability has a condition is irrelevant.

Proven, over and over again.

They only have said "ability" once a dice is rolled and the result can be ascertained.

The "proven" above should be replaced with "stated". You have no proof of this past "If a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit" from Blast rules.
You also believe BS6+ grants you said ability?
Even though that rule is even clearer than PE?

"it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks."


Clearly a "1" must be rolled before the re-roll is "gained".

Do you have that reroll before you roll a 1? No.
Do you have the ability to reroll before you roll a 1? No.

You will notice that i am quoting rules support again, even though we are repeating the debate. This is both for the new users and because saying "I've proved it X times before" really does not help while debating. I hope this is understood for further participation.

It does give you the ability to reroll, but there is a condition to it. Just like a rule that gave you the ability to reroll all failed to hit rolls gives you the ability, but again with a condition.

Show why this condition does not have to be met:

"Failed To Hit roll"

But this condition does:

"To Hit roll of 1"

To help your understanding think about this: let's assume I am Bs 4. Answer the following 3 questions for each example.

1) If I have the ability to reroll to hit can I re roll the dice?
2) If I have the ability to reroll all failed Hits can I reroll the dice?
3) If I have PE can I reroll the dice?

Note these questions are about can not whether you'd want to or not:

A) Say I roll a 1?
B) I roll a 2?
C) I roll a 6?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BlackTals check out the near identical wording for Gets Hot and blasts and note the examples it gives.

 BlackTalos wrote:

You will notice that i am quoting rules support again, even though we are repeating the debate. This is both for the new users and because saying "I've proved it X times before" really does not help while debating. I hope this is understood for further participation.

And again, this makes the Blast rule completely irrelevant - as in it does nothing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:
It would trigger the rule for this reason: If I asked you to give me an example of a rule where you can re-roll your rolls to hit, would you say PE? I would imagine no, as PE doesn't give you this ability. It gives you the ability to re-roll failed 1's

It does give you the ability to reroll To Hit. This is unarguable.
The fact that it only allows you to reroll To Hit rolls of 1 isn't relevant for this discussion.

 BlackTalos wrote:
So, RedEyeJedi21, as (hopefully) it is clear now that this is an "all or nothing" situation, and that i do believe, as you do, that PE does not grant the "ability to re-roll" until a 1 is rolled, just like other re-rolls granted by "misses" need you to "miss" before you can get the ability, i will continue answering the following:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, they have an ability. That the ability has a condition is irrelevant.

Proven, over and over again.

They only have said "ability" once a dice is rolled and the result can be ascertained.

The "proven" above should be replaced with "stated". You have no proof of this past "If a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit" from Blast rules.
You also believe BS6+ grants you said ability?
Even though that rule is even clearer than PE?

"it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks."


Clearly a "1" must be rolled before the re-roll is "gained".

Do you have that reroll before you roll a 1? No.
Do you have the ability to reroll before you roll a 1? No.

You will notice that i am quoting rules support again, even though we are repeating the debate. This is both for the new users and because saying "I've proved it X times before" really does not help while debating. I hope this is understood for further participation.

It's not an all or nothing but like you say it's hard to discuss rulings with people who claim to have put an unofficial proven end to rules, and then not evening quoting them.

My points exactly. They have taken it upon themselves to declare that the Blasts and Re-Rules wording has no restrictions, even though it specifically says models that 'have the ability to re-roll it's to hit rolls' ...which the PE simply doesn't have.

Wow, this thread is going places.

Lets bring up BS6 as well, pg 33. "it GAINS a reroll whenever it rolls a 1"

the model does not have the ability to reroll unless it rolls a 1. Just like PE, if you don't roll a 1 first, you do NOT have the ability to reroll.

Prescience actually grants the ability to reroll, PE does not.

Can you guys stop with all the appeals to authority and strawmen now.

sirlynchmob wrote:
Wow, this thread is going places.

Lets bring up BS6 as well, pg 33. "it GAINS a reroll whenever it rolls a 1"

the model does not have the ability to reroll unless it rolls a 1. Just like PE, if you don't roll a 1 first, you do NOT have the ability to reroll.

Prescience actually grants the ability to reroll, PE does not.

Can you guys stop with all the appeals to authority and strawmen now.

BS6 is defined as an ability to re-roll its rolls to hit.

From the "Gets Hot and Re-rolls" (which has pretty much identical wording to Blasts)
"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including from BS6+ and Twin-Linked).."

If BS6+ is a valid re-roll ability, how can you claim PE isn't?

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

My points exactly. They have taken it upon themselves to declare that the Blasts and Re-Rules wording has no restrictions, even though it specifically says models that 'have the ability to re-roll it's to hit rolls' ...which the PE simply doesn't have.

No, that's not what's being said.
The blast rules aren't qualifying the roll to hit -- that's different from saying there's no restrictions.
And PE explicitly does have that.


I left out irrelevant parts of the rule. You keep saying PE doesn't allow you to reroll To Hit - you've been proven incorrect, repeatedly.

 grendel083 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Wow, this thread is going places.

Lets bring up BS6 as well, pg 33. "it GAINS a reroll whenever it rolls a 1"

the model does not have the ability to reroll unless it rolls a 1. Just like PE, if you don't roll a 1 first, you do NOT have the ability to reroll.

Prescience actually grants the ability to reroll, PE does not.

Can you guys stop with all the appeals to authority and strawmen now.

BS6 is defined as an ability to re-roll its rolls to hit.

From the "Gets Hot and Re-rolls" (which has pretty much identical wording to Blasts)
"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including from BS6+ and Twin-Linked).."

If BS6+ is a valid re-roll ability, how can you claim PE isn't?

and when does "gets hot" come into play? oh ya a 1 was rolled thus the model gained a reroll that can be used like twin linked. That's some serious grasping for straws and ignoring how BS6 itself says the model "GAINS" the ability after rolling a 1. How can you gain something if you already have it?

It's not an all or nothing but like you say it's hard to discuss rulings with people who claim to have put an unofficial proven end to rules, and then not evening quoting them.

My points exactly. They have taken it upon themselves to declare that the Blasts and Re-Rules wording has no restrictions, even though it specifically says models that 'have the ability to re-roll it's to hit rolls' ...which the PE simply doesn't have.

Bless you're agreeing with someone you don't even understand. So once again:

PE does give you the ability to reroll, but there is a condition to it. Just like a rule that gave you the ability to reroll all failed to hit rolls gives you the ability, but again with a condition.

Show why this condition does not have to be met:

"Failed To Hit roll"

But this condition does:

"To Hit roll of 1"

To help your understanding think about this: let's assume I am Bs 4. Answer the following 3 questions for each example.

1) If I have the ability to reroll to hit can I re roll the dice?
2) If I have the ability to reroll all failed Hits can I reroll the dice?
3) If I have PE can I reroll the dice?

Note these questions are about can not whether you'd want to or not:

A) Say I roll a 1?
B) I roll a 2?
C) I roll a 6?

 FlingitNow wrote:
BlackTalos check out the near identical wording for Gets Hot and blasts and note the examples it gives.

I'm not sure what point this has for the argument? It reinforces what i think: -Blast weapons cannot roll "1" To Hit: They need an entire paragraph telling you to roll a D6 before they are fired.

If you are referring to "Gets Hot and Re-rolls" and examples of BS6+ or Twin-Linked:
"a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1"

There is a very clear assumption that the To Hit roll was a "1". The model therefore had "the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit", indeed.

Don't forget that all of the above happens after "When firing a weapon that Gets Hot, roll To Hit as normal. For each To Hit roll of 1, the firing model immediately suffers a Wound"

The statement "If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" and examples is clearly within "Gets Hot and Re-rolls": When you are rolling 1s.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

You will notice that i am quoting rules support again, even though we are repeating the debate. This is both for the new users and because saying "I've proved it X times before" really does not help while debating. I hope this is understood for further participation.

And again, this makes the Blast rule completely irrelevant - as in it does nothing.

Because Triarch Praetorians having a DT does?
Because Tyrannocyte's "Instictive fire" does?

Some rules do nothing by RaW, and this is known to you.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Wow, this thread is going places.

Lets bring up BS6 as well, pg 33. "it GAINS a reroll whenever it rolls a 1"

the model does not have the ability to reroll unless it rolls a 1. Just like PE, if you don't roll a 1 first, you do NOT have the ability to reroll.

Prescience actually grants the ability to reroll, PE does not.

Can you guys stop with all the appeals to authority and strawmen now.

BS6 is defined as an ability to re-roll its rolls to hit.

From the "Gets Hot and Re-rolls" (which has pretty much identical wording to Blasts)
"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including from BS6+ and Twin-Linked).."

If BS6+ is a valid re-roll ability, how can you claim PE isn't?

and when does "gets hot" come into play? oh ya a 1 was rolled thus the model gained a reroll that can be used like twin linked. That's some serious grasping for straws and ignoring how BS6 itself says the model "GAINS" the ability after rolling a 1. How can you gain something if you already have it?

It's a rule with identical wording.
You can try and make the claim its a re-roll for one rule, but not another, but I'm sure you can see how weak an argument that is.
Comparible situations.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Wow, this thread is going places.

Lets bring up BS6 as well, pg 33. "it GAINS a reroll whenever it rolls a 1"

the model does not have the ability to reroll unless it rolls a 1. Just like PE, if you don't roll a 1 first, you do NOT have the ability to reroll.

Prescience actually grants the ability to reroll, PE does not.

Can you guys stop with all the appeals to authority and strawmen now.

BS6 is defined as an ability to re-roll its rolls to hit.

From the "Gets Hot and Re-rolls" (which has pretty much identical wording to Blasts)
"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including from BS6+ and Twin-Linked).."

If BS6+ is a valid re-roll ability, how can you claim PE isn't?

and when does "gets hot" come into play? oh ya a 1 was rolled thus the model gained a reroll that can be used like twin linked. That's some serious grasping for straws and ignoring how BS6 itself says the model "GAINS" the ability after rolling a 1. How can you gain something if you already have it?

Indeed.
The Gets Hot rule and examples are all after a 1 has been rolled.
Including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule, they would have the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit.

 grendel083 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Wow, this thread is going places.

Lets bring up BS6 as well, pg 33. "it GAINS a reroll whenever it rolls a 1"

the model does not have the ability to reroll unless it rolls a 1. Just like PE, if you don't roll a 1 first, you do NOT have the ability to reroll.

Prescience actually grants the ability to reroll, PE does not.

Can you guys stop with all the appeals to authority and strawmen now.

BS6 is defined as an ability to re-roll its rolls to hit.

From the "Gets Hot and Re-rolls" (which has pretty much identical wording to Blasts)
"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including from BS6+ and Twin-Linked).."

If BS6+ is a valid re-roll ability, how can you claim PE isn't?

and when does "gets hot" come into play? oh ya a 1 was rolled thus the model gained a reroll that can be used like twin linked. That's some serious grasping for straws and ignoring how BS6 itself says the model "GAINS" the ability after rolling a 1. How can you gain something if you already have it?

It's a rule with identical wording.
You can try and make the claim its a re-roll for one rule, but not another, but I'm sure you can see how weak an argument that is.
Comparible situations.

Yes PE & BS6 are comparable, if you do not roll a 1, you do not have the ability to reroll. If you do not have the ability to reroll, the blast rule does not help you.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Because Triarch Praetorians having a DT does?

Yes. It allows a slotless transport.

Because Tyrannocyte's "Instictive fire" does?

Yes. It allows the model to fire 5 weapons instead of one.

Some rules do nothing by RaW, and this is known to you.

Your interpretation means the rule does nothing, and if there's another - equally valid - interpretation that means the rule does something, then the interpretation that makes it do nothing cannot be correct.

Re-roll
In some situations, the rules allow you to re-roll a dice. This is exactly what it sounds like – pick up the dice you wish to re-roll, and roll it again.

The above "situation" within the rules, is only when you have gauged the result of the first roll.

Or are you saying that having the ability before the roll means you can choose to Re-Roll before you roll?

 BlackTalos wrote:
Re-roll
In some situations, the rules allow you to re-roll a dice. This is exactly what it sounds like – pick up the dice you wish to re-roll, and roll it again.

The above "situation" within the rules, is only when you have gauged the result of the first roll.

Or are you saying that having the ability before the roll means you can choose to Re-Roll before you roll?

I have no idea who this is directed to, but it doesn't make sense in the context of the thread.

If you want to argue a Plasma Cannon with Bs6 can't re-roll its Gets Roll, good luck with that. The rules won't agree.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Because Triarch Praetorians having a DT does?

Yes. It allows a slotless transport.

Because Tyrannocyte's "Instictive fire" does?

Yes. It allows the model to fire 5 weapons instead of one.

Some rules do nothing by RaW, and this is known to you.

Your interpretation means the rule does nothing, and if there's another - equally valid - interpretation that means the rule does something, then the interpretation that makes it do nothing cannot be correct.

Or there was an intention (RaI) for it to work, but it does not.

The second interpretation means the rule does a lot of things, a few of which break other rules. Is breaking rules more "correct" then?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:
If you want to argue a Plasma Cannon with Bs6 can't re-roll its Gets Roll, good luck with that. The rules won't agree.

How is this arguing that a Plasma Cannon can't re-roll its Gets Hot?
"it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit."

There is specific wording for that weapon to function, because the current setting is, of course, when we have rolled a 1 already (which Blast weapons can't do).

 grendel083 wrote:
If you want to argue a Plasma Cannon with Bs6 can't re-roll its Gets Roll, good luck with that. The rules won't agree.

Back to the strawmen eh?

I've made no such claim. as you have to result to making such strawmen and not address that BS6 has to GAIN the ability to reroll first, then you are clearly not making a RAW case. After BS6 has rolled a 1, thus gaining the ability to reroll, then and only then, is it comparable to twin linked.

Now try to address why BS6 specifically says you "GAIN the ability" when a 1 is rolled. while discussing PE which rule is more akin to it? BS6 or prescience?

Yes PE & BS6 are comparable, if you do not roll a 1, you do not have the ability to reroll. If you do not have the ability to reroll, the blast rule does not help you.

Page 164 of the rulebook disagrees with the underlined. Who should we believe you are the rulebook?

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Because Triarch Praetorians having a DT does?

Yes. It allows a slotless transport.

Because Tyrannocyte's "Instictive fire" does?

Yes. It allows the model to fire 5 weapons instead of one.

Some rules do nothing by RaW, and this is known to you.

Your interpretation means the rule does nothing, and if there's another - equally valid - interpretation that means the rule does something, then the interpretation that makes it do nothing cannot be correct.

Or there was an intention (RaI) for it to work, but it does not.

The second interpretation means the rule does a lot of things, a few of which break other rules. Is breaking rules more "correct" then?

What rules are broken? I've seen you assert this before but you've never (afaik) proven it.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Yes PE & BS6 are comparable, if you do not roll a 1, you do not have the ability to reroll. If you do not have the ability to reroll, the blast rule does not help you.

Page 164 of the rulebook disagrees with the underlined. Who should we believe you are the rulebook?

Maybe a Title or sub-title for those who only have the e-book and no page numbers.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Yes PE & BS6 are comparable, if you do not roll a 1, you do not have the ability to reroll. If you do not have the ability to reroll, the blast rule does not help you.

Page 164 of the rulebook disagrees with the underlined. Who should we believe you are the rulebook?

The rule book obviously and what does pg 33 say about BS6?
when does the "gets hot" rule come into play?
How can you gain something if as you claim, you already have?

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Because Triarch Praetorians having a DT does?

Yes. It allows a slotless transport.

Because Tyrannocyte's "Instictive fire" does?

Yes. It allows the model to fire 5 weapons instead of one.

Some rules do nothing by RaW, and this is known to you.

Your interpretation means the rule does nothing, and if there's another - equally valid - interpretation that means the rule does something, then the interpretation that makes it do nothing cannot be correct.

Or there was an intention (RaI) for it to work, but it does not.

The second interpretation means the rule does a lot of things, a few of which break other rules. Is breaking rules more "correct" then?

What rules are broken? I've seen you assert this before but you've never (afaik) proven it.

Master-crafted for one.
BS6+ is another.

MC: The model has the ability. Fires 3 shots. You can re-roll Blast scatter on all 3. Or would you now say that shooting is not simultaneous?

BS6+: "it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks.". If you never rolled a 1, explain how you "gained" the re-roll?

How is this arguing that a Plasma Cannon can't re-roll its Gets Hot?
"it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit."

There is specific wording for that weapon to function, because the current setting is, of course, when we have rolled a 1 already (which Blast weapons can't do).

Because we haven't rolled a 1 To Hit. He have triggered an "ability to reroll its rolls To Hit".

Does that trigger work for PE and Bs6+ yes or no?

Hey, we have the exact same discussion in our German forum. In my opinion it is not 100% clear.
The "ability to reroll its rolls to hit" is completely unconditional, I agree.

However, the issue I have is the part "and chooses to do so" (reroll it's rolls to hit). This is in fact a condition, because you can only decide to do something, if you are currently able to actually do it. The problem is, this is impossible since there weren't any rolls to hit in the first place so nothing to be rerollable.
This is a weird unhelpful expression imho because it makes the rule contradict itself. But maybe I get something wrong.

Otherwise, of course, PE, TL, MC, BS6+, Hatred, Zealot graant the "ability to reroll it's rolls to hit" (under certain irrelevant conditions).

 FlingitNow wrote:

How is this arguing that a Plasma Cannon can't re-roll its Gets Hot?
"it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit."

There is specific wording for that weapon to function, because the current setting is, of course, when we have rolled a 1 already (which Blast weapons can't do).

Because we haven't rolled a 1 To Hit. He have triggered an "ability to reroll its rolls To Hit".

Does that trigger work for PE and Bs6+ yes or no?

When we've rolled a 1 To Hit, yeah the trigger works.

"it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit." refers to "Weapons that do not roll To Hit (...) For each roll of a 1, the weapon Gets Hot".
If the models has BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule, the "1" has been rolled?

Not seeing an issue?

 BlackTalos wrote:
MC: The model has the ability. Fires 3 shots. You can re-roll Blast scatter on all 3. Or would you now say that shooting is not simultaneous?

A single model's shooting is simultaneous.
Different weapons from a single model is demonstrably not. If it's Blast 3, Master Crafted (I don't think a single example of a multi-shot master crafted blast weapon exists, so this is theoretical) then I'd have to look closer at the rules, but I would still say no - there's no "limbo" and you resolve the scatters sequentially. You would, however, be able to see the result of all 3 scatters before deciding which to reroll.

BS6+: "it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks.". If you never rolled a 1, explain how you "gained" the re-roll?

Poor wording. Not a "broken" rule, however.

Please support your assertion or retract it.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

How is this arguing that a Plasma Cannon can't re-roll its Gets Hot?
"it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit."

There is specific wording for that weapon to function, because the current setting is, of course, when we have rolled a 1 already (which Blast weapons can't do).

Because we haven't rolled a 1 To Hit. He have triggered an "ability to reroll its rolls To Hit".

Does that trigger work for PE and Bs6+ yes or no?

When we've rolled a 1 To Hit, yeah the trigger works.

"it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit." refers to "Weapons that do not roll To Hit (...) For each roll of a 1, the weapon Gets Hot".
If the models has BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule, the "1" has been rolled?

Not seeing an issue?

is the dice you roll for get's hot blast weapons a to hit roll? or just a d6 roll?

the d6 rolled for blasts will not gain you the ability to reroll from BS6. For other weapons that do work on to hit rolls, the BS6 reroll will allow you to reroll the die, just like twin linked.

You`re conflating two different rules.

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
Hey, we have the exact same discussion in our German forum. In my opinion it is not 100% clear.
The "ability to reroll its rolls to hit" is completely unconditional, I agree.

However, the issue I have is the part "and chooses to do so" (reroll it's rolls to hit). This is in fact a condition, because you can only decide to do something, if you are currently able to actually do it. The problem is, this is impossible since there weren't any rolls to hit in the first place so nothing to be rerollable.
This is a weird unhelpful expression imho because it makes the rule contradict itself. But maybe I get something wrong.

Otherwise, of course, PE, TL, MC, BS6+, Hatred, Zealot graant the "ability to reroll it's rolls to hit" (under certain irrelevant conditions).

The "and chooses to do so after firing" is because of how re-roll work:
You roll once, and check the result. If conditions are met, you may re-roll (choice). Same thing for blast: you roll to "firing a Blast weapon", and then you can "chooses to do so"(re-roll).

It's in the re-roll rules:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Re-roll
In some situations, the rules allow you to re-roll a dice. This is exactly what it sounds like – pick up the dice you wish to re-roll, and roll it again.

It is not an obligation.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Yes PE & BS6 are comparable, if you do not roll a 1, you do not have the ability to reroll. If you do not have the ability to reroll, the blast rule does not help you.

Page 164 of the rulebook disagrees with the underlined. Who should we believe you are the rulebook?

The rule book obviously and what does pg 33 say about BS6?
when does the "gets hot" rule come into play?
How can you gain something if as you claim, you already have?

We're talking about blasts right? So Gets Hot comes into play when you roll a 1 on a Gets Hot roll. Not when you roll a 1 To Hit (the trigger for the Bs6+ reroll) as that would NEVER happen. So likewise the question is have we triggered an "ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit". Does that trigger work for PE and Bs6+ yes or no?

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
MC: The model has the ability. Fires 3 shots. You can re-roll Blast scatter on all 3. Or would you now say that shooting is not simultaneous?

A single model's shooting is simultaneous.
Different weapons from a single model is demonstrably not. If it's Blast 3, Master Crafted (I don't think a single example of a multi-shot master crafted blast weapon exists, so this is theoretical) then I'd have to look closer at the rules, but I would still say no - there's no "limbo" and you resolve the scatters sequentially. You would, however, be able to see the result of all 3 scatters before deciding which to reroll.

As you are 'able to see the result of all 3 scatters before deciding', why would using MC for 1 invalidate the other 2? if you select the 3rd shot, why would the sequentially 1st shot loose the ability?

rigeld2 wrote:

BS6+: "it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks.". If you never rolled a 1, explain how you "gained" the re-roll?

Poor wording. Not a "broken" rule, however.

If you re-roll a scatter with BS10, you have broken the BS6+ rule, as you did not have a re-roll.

A model with BS10 firing a blast weapon reduces scatter by 10". It does not re-roll.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

How is this arguing that a Plasma Cannon can't re-roll its Gets Hot?
"it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit."

There is specific wording for that weapon to function, because the current setting is, of course, when we have rolled a 1 already (which Blast weapons can't do).

Because we haven't rolled a 1 To Hit. He have triggered an "ability to reroll its rolls To Hit".

Does that trigger work for PE and Bs6+ yes or no?

When we've rolled a 1 To Hit, yeah the trigger works.

"it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit." refers to "Weapons that do not roll To Hit (...) For each roll of a 1, the weapon Gets Hot".
If the models has BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule, the "1" has been rolled?

Not seeing an issue?

What if we haven't rolled a 1 To Hit? What if say we've rolled a 1 on the Gets Hot roll for a Plasma Cannon?

 FlingitNow wrote:

It's not an all or nothing but like you say it's hard to discuss rulings with people who claim to have put an unofficial proven end to rules, and then not evening quoting them.

My points exactly. They have taken it upon themselves to declare that the Blasts and Re-Rules wording has no restrictions, even though it specifically says models that 'have the ability to re-roll it's to hit rolls' ...which the PE simply doesn't have.

Bless you're agreeing with someone you don't even understand. So once again:

PE does give you the ability to reroll, but there is a condition to it. Just like a rule that gave you the ability to reroll all failed to hit rolls gives you the ability, but again with a condition.

Show why this condition does not have to be met:

"Failed To Hit roll"

But this condition does:

"To Hit roll of 1"

To help your understanding think about this: let's assume I am Bs 4. Answer the following 3 questions for each example.

1) If I have the ability to reroll to hit can I re roll the dice?
2) If I have the ability to reroll all failed Hits can I reroll the dice?
3) If I have PE can I reroll the dice?

Note these questions are about can not whether you'd want to or not:

A) Say I roll a 1?
B) I roll a 2?
C) I roll a 6?

It's very clear by your way of using irrelevant rules as a means of comparing the rules in question that it's you that clearly doesn't understand.

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
MC: The model has the ability. Fires 3 shots. You can re-roll Blast scatter on all 3. Or would you now say that shooting is not simultaneous?

A single model's shooting is simultaneous.
Different weapons from a single model is demonstrably not. If it's Blast 3, Master Crafted (I don't think a single example of a multi-shot master crafted blast weapon exists, so this is theoretical) then I'd have to look closer at the rules, but I would still say no - there's no "limbo" and you resolve the scatters sequentially. You would, however, be able to see the result of all 3 scatters before deciding which to reroll.

As you are 'able to see the result of all 3 scatters before deciding', why would using MC for 1 invalidate the other 2? if you select the 3rd shot, why would the sequentially 1st shot loose the ability?

If you re-roll more than one, you've broken the Master-crafted rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

BS6+: "it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks.". If you never rolled a 1, explain how you "gained" the re-roll?

Poor wording. Not a "broken" rule, however.

If you re-roll a scatter with BS10, you have broken the BS6+ rule, as you did not have a re-roll.

A model with BS10 firing a blast weapon reduces scatter by 10". It does not re-roll.

That's your assumption, and one the actual rules don't support. It's demonstrable (and has been demonstrated despite your handwaving) that BS6+ is as re-rollable as Prescience and PE.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

How is this arguing that a Plasma Cannon can't re-roll its Gets Hot?
"it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit."

There is specific wording for that weapon to function, because the current setting is, of course, when we have rolled a 1 already (which Blast weapons can't do).

Because we haven't rolled a 1 To Hit. He have triggered an "ability to reroll its rolls To Hit".

Does that trigger work for PE and Bs6+ yes or no?

When we've rolled a 1 To Hit, yeah the trigger works.

"it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit." refers to "Weapons that do not roll To Hit (...) For each roll of a 1, the weapon Gets Hot".
If the models has BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule, the "1" has been rolled?

Not seeing an issue?

What if we haven't rolled a 1 To Hit? What if say we've rolled a 1 on the Gets Hot roll for a Plasma Cannon?

Then as sirlynchmob has pointed out this is not a To Hit roll.

The rules contained in Gets Hot therefore explains what you get:

"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (...) it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit."

 FlingitNow wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Yes PE & BS6 are comparable, if you do not roll a 1, you do not have the ability to reroll. If you do not have the ability to reroll, the blast rule does not help you.

Page 164 of the rulebook disagrees with the underlined. Who should we believe you are the rulebook?

The rule book obviously and what does pg 33 say about BS6?
when does the "gets hot" rule come into play?
How can you gain something if as you claim, you already have?

We're talking about blasts right? So Gets Hot comes into play when you roll a 1 on a Gets Hot roll. Not when you roll a 1 To Hit (the trigger for the Bs6+ reroll) as that would NEVER happen. So likewise the question is have we triggered an "ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit". Does that trigger work for PE and Bs6+ yes or no?

Get's hot also has weapons that are not blasts right?

No, neither BS6, nor PE will allow a reroll for blasts, as you can never gain the ability to reroll.

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

It's not an all or nothing but like you say it's hard to discuss rulings with people who claim to have put an unofficial proven end to rules, and then not evening quoting them.

My points exactly. They have taken it upon themselves to declare that the Blasts and Re-Rules wording has no restrictions, even though it specifically says models that 'have the ability to re-roll it's to hit rolls' ...which the PE simply doesn't have.

Bless you're agreeing with someone you don't even understand. So once again:

PE does give you the ability to reroll, but there is a condition to it. Just like a rule that gave you the ability to reroll all failed to hit rolls gives you the ability, but again with a condition.

Show why this condition does not have to be met:

"Failed To Hit roll"

But this condition does:

"To Hit roll of 1"

To help your understanding think about this: let's assume I am Bs 4. Answer the following 3 questions for each example.

1) If I have the ability to reroll to hit can I re roll the dice?
2) If I have the ability to reroll all failed Hits can I reroll the dice?
3) If I have PE can I reroll the dice?

Note these questions are about can not whether you'd want to or not:

A) Say I roll a 1?
B) I roll a 2?
C) I roll a 6?

It's very clear by your way of using irrelevant rules as a means of comparing the rules in question that it's you that clearly doesn't understand.

Can you answer the questions? Then perhaps I'll be able to help you understand the relevance.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
MC: The model has the ability. Fires 3 shots. You can re-roll Blast scatter on all 3. Or would you now say that shooting is not simultaneous?

A single model's shooting is simultaneous.
Different weapons from a single model is demonstrably not. If it's Blast 3, Master Crafted (I don't think a single example of a multi-shot master crafted blast weapon exists, so this is theoretical) then I'd have to look closer at the rules, but I would still say no - there's no "limbo" and you resolve the scatters sequentially. You would, however, be able to see the result of all 3 scatters before deciding which to reroll.

As you are 'able to see the result of all 3 scatters before deciding', why would using MC for 1 invalidate the other 2? if you select the 3rd shot, why would the sequentially 1st shot loose the ability?

Spoiler:

Weapons with the Master-crafted special rule allow the bearer to re-roll one failed roll To Hit per turn with that weapon.

If you re-roll more than one, you've broken the Master-crafted rule.

Well.... that was the point?
Your interpretation leads to breaking the Master-crafted rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

BS6+: "it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks.". If you never rolled a 1, explain how you "gained" the re-roll?

Poor wording. Not a "broken" rule, however.

If you re-roll a scatter with BS10, you have broken the BS6+ rule, as you did not have a re-roll.

A model with BS10 firing a blast weapon reduces scatter by 10". It does not re-roll.

That's your assumption, and one the actual rules don't support. It's demonstrable (and has been demonstrated despite your handwaving) that BS6+ is as re-rollable as Prescience and PE.

Demonstrable if you consider the "ability" in the way you do. I have seen that.
The result is still breaking the BS6+ rule. As for Master-crafted above.

The "and chooses to do so after firing" is because of how re-roll work:
You roll once, and check the result. If conditions are met, you may re-roll (choice). Same thing for blast: you roll to "firing a Blast weapon", and then you can "chooses to do so"(re-roll).

Well but "do so" refers to "reroll its roll(s) to hit", not "reroll the scatter dice", doesn't it? Yes I know it isn't an obligation, but the wording is then very clumsy and misleading in my opinion. Do you mean this: "If a model firing a blast weapon has the ability to reroll its rolls to hit, it can reroll the scatter dice. If it chooses to do so, reroll both the scatter die and the distance."?

But thats not the wording. So it leads to the problem I mentioned:

If conditions are met, you may re-roll (choice)

Exactly. The conditions can't be met, because there was no roll to hit. So the choice is non existent.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

How is this arguing that a Plasma Cannon can't re-roll its Gets Hot?
"it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit."

There is specific wording for that weapon to function, because the current setting is, of course, when we have rolled a 1 already (which Blast weapons can't do).

Because we haven't rolled a 1 To Hit. He have triggered an "ability to reroll its rolls To Hit".

Does that trigger work for PE and Bs6+ yes or no?

When we've rolled a 1 To Hit, yeah the trigger works.

"it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit." refers to "Weapons that do not roll To Hit (...) For each roll of a 1, the weapon Gets Hot".
If the models has BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule, the "1" has been rolled?

Not seeing an issue?

What if we haven't rolled a 1 To Hit? What if say we've rolled a 1 on the Gets Hot roll for a Plasma Cannon?

Then as sirlynchmob has pointed out this is not a To Hit roll.

The rules contained in Gets Hot therefore explains what you get:

"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (...) it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit."

So you agree the trigger "ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" works for Bs6+ & PE when you haven't rolled a 1 To Hit. Is that correct?

 FlingitNow wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

How is this arguing that a Plasma Cannon can't re-roll its Gets Hot?
"it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit."

There is specific wording for that weapon to function, because the current setting is, of course, when we have rolled a 1 already (which Blast weapons can't do).

Because we haven't rolled a 1 To Hit. He have triggered an "ability to reroll its rolls To Hit".

Does that trigger work for PE and Bs6+ yes or no?

When we've rolled a 1 To Hit, yeah the trigger works.

"it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit." refers to "Weapons that do not roll To Hit (...) For each roll of a 1, the weapon Gets Hot".
If the models has BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule, the "1" has been rolled?

Not seeing an issue?

What if we haven't rolled a 1 To Hit? What if say we've rolled a 1 on the Gets Hot roll for a Plasma Cannon?

Then as sirlynchmob has pointed out this is not a To Hit roll.

The rules contained in Gets Hot therefore explains what you get:

"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (...) it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit."

So you agree the trigger "ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" works for Bs6+ & PE when you haven't rolled a 1 To Hit. Is that correct?

No, the trigger would only work if the model has the ability: after you have rolled the first shot, you check whether you are eligible for a re-roll. As per how Re-rolling actually works:

 BlackTalos wrote:
"Re-roll
In some situations, the rules allow you to re-roll a dice. This is exactly what it sounds like – pick up the dice you wish to re-roll, and roll it again."

The above "situation" within the rules, is only when you have gauged the result of the first roll.

No, the trigger would only work if the model has the ability: after you have rolled the first shot, you check whether you are eligible for a re-roll. As per how Re-rolling actually works:

So Bs6+ doesn't allow you reroll Gets Hot on blast weapons as no 1 To Hit roll was made correct?

 FlingitNow wrote:

No, the trigger would only work if the model has the ability: after you have rolled the first shot, you check whether you are eligible for a re-roll. As per how Re-rolling actually works:

So Bs6+ doesn't allow you reroll Gets Hot on blast weapons as no 1 To Hit roll was made correct?

Just as BS6+ does not allow you to re-roll scatter as you never rolled a 1 To Hit.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

No, the trigger would only work if the model has the ability: after you have rolled the first shot, you check whether you are eligible for a re-roll. As per how Re-rolling actually works:

So Bs6+ doesn't allow you reroll Gets Hot on blast weapons as no 1 To Hit roll was made correct?

Just as BS6+ does not allow you to re-roll scatter as you never rolled a 1 To Hit.

So the rulebook is lying when it says you do?

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
MC: The model has the ability. Fires 3 shots. You can re-roll Blast scatter on all 3. Or would you now say that shooting is not simultaneous?

A single model's shooting is simultaneous.
Different weapons from a single model is demonstrably not. If it's Blast 3, Master Crafted (I don't think a single example of a multi-shot master crafted blast weapon exists, so this is theoretical) then I'd have to look closer at the rules, but I would still say no - there's no "limbo" and you resolve the scatters sequentially. You would, however, be able to see the result of all 3 scatters before deciding which to reroll.

As you are 'able to see the result of all 3 scatters before deciding', why would using MC for 1 invalidate the other 2? if you select the 3rd shot, why would the sequentially 1st shot loose the ability?

Spoiler:

Weapons with the Master-crafted special rule allow the bearer to re-roll one failed roll To Hit per turn with that weapon.

If you re-roll more than one, you've broken the Master-crafted rule.

Well.... that was the point?
Your interpretation leads to breaking the Master-crafted rule.

... No? You're not forced to re-roll all 3, attempting to re-roll all 3 would break a rule. My interpretation doesn't break the rule, attempting to do it 3 times does.

rigeld2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

BS6+: "it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks.". If you never rolled a 1, explain how you "gained" the re-roll?

Poor wording. Not a "broken" rule, however.

If you re-roll a scatter with BS10, you have broken the BS6+ rule, as you did not have a re-roll.

A model with BS10 firing a blast weapon reduces scatter by 10". It does not re-roll.

That's your assumption, and one the actual rules don't support. It's demonstrable (and has been demonstrated despite your handwaving) that BS6+ is as re-rollable as Prescience and PE.

Demonstrable if you consider the "ability" in the way you do. I have seen that.
The result is still breaking the BS6+ rule. As for Master-crafted above.

No rule is broken. You've failed to prove otherwise. You're making assumptions and haven't actually backed them up more than saying "it totes breaks dem rulez dawg." In fact, you've gone out of your way to say that purposely breaking the Master Crafted rule is a consequence of my interpretation, when my interpretation does nothing of the sort.

I'm not breaking the BS6+ rule. There is no rule in there that says you cannot re-roll scatter. Your assertion that "gains" means anything relevant has yet to ever be proven. At this point you're resorting to making things up, which is obviously poor debate form.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

No, the trigger would only work if the model has the ability: after you have rolled the first shot, you check whether you are eligible for a re-roll. As per how Re-rolling actually works:

So Bs6+ doesn't allow you reroll Gets Hot on blast weapons as no 1 To Hit roll was made correct?

Just as BS6+ does not allow you to re-roll scatter as you never rolled a 1 To Hit.

So the rulebook is lying when it says you do?

How is the rulebook lying?

It says "(including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule), a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1".

This applies to weapons rolling To Hit.

In the case of the Plasma Cannon:
"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit: it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit."
So if it got the ability, it can do what follows. Say when it rolled a Twin-linked Blast for example.
If it did not have the ability , like PE, or Prescience, it could not re-roll the scatter nor the Gets Hot.

No rules broken?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
MC: The model has the ability. Fires 3 shots. You can re-roll Blast scatter on all 3. Or would you now say that shooting is not simultaneous?

A single model's shooting is simultaneous.
Different weapons from a single model is demonstrably not. If it's Blast 3, Master Crafted (I don't think a single example of a multi-shot master crafted blast weapon exists, so this is theoretical) then I'd have to look closer at the rules, but I would still say no - there's no "limbo" and you resolve the scatters sequentially. You would, however, be able to see the result of all 3 scatters before deciding which to reroll.

As you are 'able to see the result of all 3 scatters before deciding', why would using MC for 1 invalidate the other 2? if you select the 3rd shot, why would the sequentially 1st shot loose the ability?

Spoiler:

Weapons with the Master-crafted special rule allow the bearer to re-roll one failed roll To Hit per turn with that weapon.

If you re-roll more than one, you've broken the Master-crafted rule.

Well.... that was the point?
Your interpretation leads to breaking the Master-crafted rule.

... No? You're not forced to re-roll all 3, attempting to re-roll all 3 would break a rule. My interpretation doesn't break the rule, attempting to do it 3 times does.

rigeld2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

BS6+: "it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks.". If you never rolled a 1, explain how you "gained" the re-roll?

Poor wording. Not a "broken" rule, however.

If you re-roll a scatter with BS10, you have broken the BS6+ rule, as you did not have a re-roll.

A model with BS10 firing a blast weapon reduces scatter by 10". It does not re-roll.

That's your assumption, and one the actual rules don't support. It's demonstrable (and has been demonstrated despite your handwaving) that BS6+ is as re-rollable as Prescience and PE.

Demonstrable if you consider the "ability" in the way you do. I have seen that.
The result is still breaking the BS6+ rule. As for Master-crafted above.

No rule is broken. You've failed to prove otherwise. You're making assumptions and haven't actually backed them up more than saying "it totes breaks dem rulez dawg." In fact, you've gone out of your way to say that purposely breaking the Master Crafted rule is a consequence of my interpretation, when my interpretation does nothing of the sort.

I'm not breaking the BS6+ rule. There is no rule in there that says you cannot re-roll scatter. Your assertion that "gains" means anything relevant has yet to ever be proven. At this point you're resorting to making things up, which is obviously poor debate form.

If you have BS10, and you fire a plasma canon, per your interpretation, you may re-roll the scatter. Correct?
Support with rules as to how you've done so? "Blast Weapons and Re-rolls" requires that you "has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit".

BS10 would clearly "gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks". Has it done so, or have you broken the rule?

The rulebook says (which you've conveniently removed) "If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of Bs6+...): it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit."

So we KNOW that Bs6+ (and therefore PE) works with the trigger "ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit".

Your interpretation means the rulebook is wrong, who should we believe you or the Rulebook?

 FlingitNow wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

No, the trigger would only work if the model has the ability: after you have rolled the first shot, you check whether you are eligible for a re-roll. As per how Re-rolling actually works:

So Bs6+ doesn't allow you reroll Gets Hot on blast weapons as no 1 To Hit roll was made correct?

Just as BS6+ does not allow you to re-roll scatter as you never rolled a 1 To Hit.

So the rulebook is lying when it says you do?

And why do you keep looking at gets hot, when the rules for BS6 are more relevant here.

Does a model with BS6 have the ability to reroll?
what needs to happen for a model with BS6 to gain a reroll?
he gains the ability, he does not have the ability.

You're conflating a rule for pistols and trying to apply it to blast weapons.

 BlackTalos wrote:
If you have BS10, and you fire a plasma canon, per your interpretation, you may re-roll the scatter. Correct?
Support with rules as to how you've done so? "Blast Weapons and Re-rolls" requires that you "has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit".

BS10 would clearly "gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks". Has it done so, or have you broken the rule?

Your argument assumes the model does not have the ability to reroll To Hit, and that "gains" is a relevant word.
The actual rules have been posted and prove you incorrect - a model with BS6+ has the ability to re-roll To Hit and therefore "gains" is an incorrect word choice.
I have not broken a rule. Your continued assertions otherwise is ignoring facts and making things up.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

No, the trigger would only work if the model has the ability: after you have rolled the first shot, you check whether you are eligible for a re-roll. As per how Re-rolling actually works:

So Bs6+ doesn't allow you reroll Gets Hot on blast weapons as no 1 To Hit roll was made correct?

Just as BS6+ does not allow you to re-roll scatter as you never rolled a 1 To Hit.

So the rulebook is lying when it says you do?

And why do you keep looking at gets hot, when the rules for BS6 are more relevant here.

Does a model with BS6 have the ability to reroll?
what needs to happen for a model with BS6 to gain a reroll?
he gains the ability, he does not have the ability.

You're conflating a rule for pistols and trying to apply it to blast weapons.

Because Gets Hot and blasts is not a To Hit roll much like blasts and scatter. They also have the same trigger for an ability to gain a reroll to those rolls. One them calls out that Bs6+ works in one of its examples. So likewise the question is:

Does the trigger "has the ability to reroll its To Hit rolls" work for Bs6+ (& therefore PE) when you do not roll a To Hit roll? Or is the rulebook lying when it says it does?

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
If you have BS10, and you fire a plasma canon, per your interpretation, you may re-roll the scatter. Correct?
Support with rules as to how you've done so? "Blast Weapons and Re-rolls" requires that you "has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit".

BS10 would clearly "gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks". Has it done so, or have you broken the rule?

Your argument assumes the model does not have the ability to reroll To Hit, and that "gains" is a relevant word.
The actual rules have been posted and prove you incorrect - a model with BS6+ has the ability to re-roll To Hit and therefore "gains" is an incorrect word choice.
I have not broken a rule. Your continued assertions otherwise is ignoring facts and making things up.

LOL,

in other words you are saying

BS6 proves I'm wrong, so just ignore it and listen to me

You are breaking rules, you're rewriting the rule book to suit your needs.

I don't have a apple, I gain a apple, I now have a apple. I did not always have a apple before I gained one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:


Because Gets Hot and blasts is not a To Hit roll much like blasts and scatter. They also have the same trigger for an ability to gain a reroll to those rolls. One them calls out that Bs6+ works in one of its examples. So likewise the question is:

Does the trigger "has the ability to reroll its To Hit rolls" work for Bs6+ (& therefore PE) when you do not roll a To Hit roll? Or is the rulebook lying when it says it does?

If you can gain the ability to reroll, then it works like twin linked. Like any non blast weapon with get's hot is capable of doing.

I'm not the one claiming the rule book is lying, that would be the one you are agree with.

If you can gain the ability to reroll, then it works like twin linked. Like any non blast weapon with get's hot is capable of doing.

I'm not the one claiming the rule book is lying, that would be the one you are agree with.

So does the trigger "has the ability to reroll its To Hit rolls" work for Bs6+ (& therefore PE) when you do not roll a To Hit roll? Or is the rulebook lying when it says it does?

 FlingitNow wrote:

If you can gain the ability to reroll, then it works like twin linked. Like any non blast weapon with get's hot is capable of doing.

I'm not the one claiming the rule book is lying, that would be the one you are agree with.

So does the trigger "has the ability to reroll its To Hit rolls" work for Bs6+ (& therefore PE) when you do not roll a To Hit roll? Or is the rulebook lying when it says it does?

are you claiming only blast weapons have get's hot?

Again if your only argument is about get's hot, then you should clearly see that you're wrong.

If you don't roll a 1, then you do not have the ability to reroll. Go read BS6, when it comes to blasts PE & BS6 do not have the ability to reroll, as you never gained one. Until you can address BS6 to make your case, trying to quote get's hot as it apply to non blast weapons, will not help you at all.

can you even admit Non blast weapons can have the get's hot rule? and in the case of non blast weapons, if you have BS6 and roll a 1, then you would have the ability to reroll as that is the same requirement to check for get's hot. is that correct or is that another area you think the rule book is lying about?

RAW: BS6 and PE do not allow blasts to reroll. As they have not gained the ability to reroll and can not do so.

You have the ability to re-roll when the 1 is rolled, as somebody stated above.

You have the ability to reroll. You can use it if you roll a 1. Not rolling a 1 doesnt remove the general ability. Otherwise you would argue, I cannot swim, because there is no pool within 5 miles, which is wrong.

 -Nazdreg- wrote:

You have the ability to re-roll when the 1 is rolled, as somebody stated above.

You have the ability to reroll. You can use it if you roll a 1. Not rolling a 1 doesnt remove the general ability. Otherwise you would argue, I cannot swim, because there is no pool within 5 miles, which is wrong.

This is correct, but the same thing (in a different form) has been presented and ignored before - so good luck getting it understood this time.

 -Nazdreg- wrote:

You have the ability to re-roll when the 1 is rolled, as somebody stated above.

You have the ability to reroll. You can use it if you roll a 1. Not rolling a 1 doesnt remove the general ability. Otherwise you would argue, I cannot swim, because there is no pool within 5 miles, which is wrong.

the proper analogy would be,
You can't swim
You gain the ability to swim (after rolling a 1 to hit)
When you find a pool, you have the ability to swim

sirlynchmob wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

If you can gain the ability to reroll, then it works like twin linked. Like any non blast weapon with get's hot is capable of doing.

I'm not the one claiming the rule book is lying, that would be the one you are agree with.

So does the trigger "has the ability to reroll its To Hit rolls" work for Bs6+ (& therefore PE) when you do not roll a To Hit roll? Or is the rulebook lying when it says it does?

are you claiming only blast weapons have get's hot?

Again if your only argument is about get's hot, then you should clearly see that you're wrong.

If you don't roll a 1, then you do not have the ability to reroll. Go read BS6, when it comes to blasts PE & BS6 do not have the ability to reroll, as you never gained one. Until you can address BS6 to make your case, trying to quote get's hot as it apply to non blast weapons, will not help you at all.

can you even admit Non blast weapons can have the get's hot rule? and in the case of non blast weapons, if you have BS6 and roll a 1, then you would have the ability to reroll as that is the same requirement to check for get's hot. is that correct or is that another area you think the rule book is lying about?

RAW: BS6 and PE do not allow blasts to reroll. As they have not gained the ability to reroll and can not do so.

I'm not claiming only blasts have Gets Hot. Just the parts about blast are the only parts relevant to this discussion.

Why do you gain the ability on any 1 you've rolled? Or is it only on 1s To Hit which the blast weapon Gets Hot roll demonstrably isn't?

Yes non blast weapons can get hot. Non blast weapons don't have relevance to the discussion at hand. You can't claim the rulebook is lying and then say that is RaW. So again I ask the question:

So does the trigger "has the ability to reroll its To Hit rolls" work for Bs6+ (& therefore PE) when you do not roll a To Hit roll? Or is the rulebook lying when it says it does?

 FlingitNow wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:


are you claiming only blast weapons have get's hot?

Again if your only argument is about get's hot, then you should clearly see that you're wrong.

If you don't roll a 1, then you do not have the ability to reroll. Go read BS6, when it comes to blasts PE & BS6 do not have the ability to reroll, as you never gained one. Until you can address BS6 to make your case, trying to quote get's hot as it apply to non blast weapons, will not help you at all.

can you even admit Non blast weapons can have the get's hot rule? and in the case of non blast weapons, if you have BS6 and roll a 1, then you would have the ability to reroll as that is the same requirement to check for get's hot. is that correct or is that another area you think the rule book is lying about?

RAW: BS6 and PE do not allow blasts to reroll. As they have not gained the ability to reroll and can not do so.

Why do you gain the ability on any 1 you've rolled? Or is it only on 1s To Hit which the blast weapon Gets Hot roll demonstrably isn't?

BS6 clearly explains why you gain the ability. they explain it in the rules quite clearly. to ignore it is to lie about the rules.

If you can't roll a 1 to hit, you can not gain the ability to reroll.

so BS6 and PE have no effect when you check to reroll blast weapons.

As you can't even address the rules in question without strawmaning, go ahead and keep stating your opinion on the matter. I'll stick to the rules which does not support anything you are claiming.

If you can't roll a 1 to hit, you can not gain the ability to reroll.

So the rulebook is lying when it says the exact opposite of this?

Why do you think the Rulebook is lying to you?

the proper analogy would be,
You can't swim
You gain the ability to swim (after rolling a 1 to hit)
When you find a pool, you have the ability to swim

I think you are thinking of an ability only as an opportunnity.
This definition proves, that the opportunity is not necessarily needed:

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/ability

The ability is granted by the existence of the special rule. It can be used, if the conditions given by the rule are met. Blast and rerolls doesn't require you to make use of it, because this would contradict itself (you can not reroll rolls to hit if you don't roll to hit at all).

Therefore either the rule is just nonsense or it is unconditional. Since rules are meant to be of actual use, the latter has to be inferred.

 -Nazdreg- wrote:

the proper analogy would be,
You can't swim
You gain the ability to swim (after rolling a 1 to hit)
When you find a pool, you have the ability to swim

I think you are thinking of an ability only as an opportunnity.
This definition proves, that the opportunity is not necessarily needed:

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/ability

The ability is granted by the existence of the special rule. It can be used, if the conditions given by the rule are met. Blast and rerolls doesn't require you to make use of it, because this would contradict itself (you can not reroll rolls to hit if you don't roll to hit at all).

Therefore either the rule is just nonsense or it is unconditional. Since rules are meant to be of actual use, the latter has to be inferred.

One last try. is having a BS6+ an ability? no, it's a characteristic
so does a model with BS6 have the ability to reroll? No
How does a model with BS6 get the ability to reroll? He gains it when he rolls a 1 on his to hit roll.

when that model rolls a blast weapon, does it have the ability to reroll? No
Does he gain the ability after the first roll? No, he never rolled a to hit of 1 to gain the ability
When it's time to reroll the blast, does the model have the ability? No, he never gained it

How this is relevant to PE. The two concepts are near identical, Much more akin than prescience, and magnitudes more relevant than get's hot.

we have BS6
"if a model has a BS 6 or higher, it GAINS a reroll whenever it rolls a 1 to hit with ranged attacks."

PE
"at least one model with this special rule rerolls failed to hit ... of 1"

So when that model rolls a blast weapon, does it have the ability to reroll? No
Does he gain the ability after the first roll? No, he never rolled a to hit roll of 1 and can only reroll to hit rolls of 1.
When it's time to reroll the blast, does the model have the ability? No, he never gained it, nor had it, and can only specifically reroll 1's, PE does not grant rerolls of blast weapons.

But if the blast rule does indeed override this restrictions and grants the ability to reroll to models that don't have it, Then would agree that a model with a ammo runt can reroll every blast all game long? Be as specific as you can.

RULE #1 - and the tenets of YMDC, please, everyone.

Thanks!

nosferatu1001 wrote:

In context of the debate though the first is sufficient to prove that it triggers the blasts and rerolls rule. Proven, again.

How do you rhyme that with the Hemlock entry from the Yanden book, which states that the hemlock cannot benefit from spirit mark. Since it only has blast weapons, it should be able to benefit from it, but it is clearly disallowed from the text...

It's written as a remember, but it's a new rule. It has no effect at all on the debate.

How so?

Spirit mark lets you reroll to hit rolls of 1. So it should benefit from the reroll for blasts as it has the ability to reroll? But if it would do so, as has been argumented here is possible, wouldn't that constitute a benefit?

The 'it doesn't roll to hit in a conventional manner' seems to imply RAI leans the other way?

tom_ep wrote:
How so?

Spirit mark lets you reroll to hit rolls of 1. So it should benefit from the reroll for blasts as it has the ability to reroll? But if it would do so, as has been argumented here is possible, wouldn't that constitute a benefit?

The 'it doesn't roll to hit in a conventional manner' seems to imply RAI leans the other way?

A) How is that relevant in a RAW discussion?
B) You could argue that only the Hemlock isn't intended to reroll.

tom_ep wrote:
How so?

Spirit mark lets you reroll to hit rolls of 1. So it should benefit from the reroll for blasts as it has the ability to reroll? But if it would do so, as has been argumented here is possible, wouldn't that constitute a benefit?

The 'it doesn't roll to hit in a conventional manner' seems to imply RAI leans the other way?

As I already pointed out, it actually makes a new rule up for the fighter. Raw is clear in the general case.

I must say, I've never had this come up before. Ever. And if just asked I would have firmly said "no, you cannot reroll blasts with PE"... but nos, rigeld, flingit... you make a compelling RAW case.

Totally agreeing with their reading. Still not sure on HIWPI, but that's (still) not what YMDC is about.

the ability to re-roll versus having an available re-roll.

if the availability to re-roll gives you a re-roll and not having an actual available re-roll then orks do not need to 'burn' or actually use ammo runts to get a re-roll if they have an ammo runt.

I don't think a model with PE has the ability to re-roll until it rolls a 1. prior to that point it does not have the ability to re-roll. No one is going to be able to prove that you have the ability to re-roll a hit before rolling a 1, just as no one will be able to prove you have to have the ability to re-roll in hand versus ever have a chance to get the ability to re-roll.

If your gaming group can't decide on whether or not Preferred Enemy grants you the re-roll on blast weapons, implement this house rule:

"Preferred Enemy: In addition if, when rolling for scatter on a Blast Weapon, the sum of the 2D6 roll is 10 or higher you may re-roll the result."

The reasoning is this - Preferred Enemy normally has a 1/6 chance of triggering (ie a roll of 1 on a D6). A result of 10+ on a 2D6 is a 1/6 chance as well. This keeps the intention of the Preferred Enemy rule alive, ie allowing you to re-roll the worst 1/6 chance, whilst also keeping the intention of the Blast rule/re-roll rule alive.

 GoonBandito wrote:
If your gaming group can't decide on whether or not Preferred Enemy grants you the re-roll on blast weapons, implement this house rule:

"Preferred Enemy: In addition if, when rolling for scatter on a Blast Weapon, the sum of the 2D6 roll is 10 or higher you may re-roll the result."

The reasoning is this - Preferred Enemy normally has a 1/6 chance of triggering (ie a roll of 1 on a D6). A result of 10+ on a 2D6 is a 1/6 chance as well. This keeps the intention of the Preferred Enemy rule alive, ie allowing you to re-roll the worst 1/6 chance, whilst also keeping the intention of the Blast rule/re-roll rule alive.

This is a very well thought out house rule.

blaktoof wrote:
the ability to re-roll versus having an available re-roll.

if the availability to re-roll gives you a re-roll and not having an actual available re-roll then orks do not need to 'burn' or actually use ammo runts to get a re-roll if they have an ammo runt.

Incorrect. They do not have the ability to re-roll unless they burn an ammo runt.

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
the ability to re-roll versus having an available re-roll.

if the availability to re-roll gives you a re-roll and not having an actual available re-roll then orks do not need to 'burn' or actually use ammo runts to get a re-roll if they have an ammo runt.

Incorrect. They do not have the ability to re-roll unless they burn an ammo runt.

You are demonstrably wrong here, Care to cite that rule?

If a model buys the runt, the model has the ability to reroll.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Re-roll
In some situations, the rules allow you to re-roll a dice. This is exactly what it sounds like – pick up the dice you wish to re-roll, and roll it again.

Quoted above is the RaW definition of a re-roll. "In some situations, the rules allow you", so either you have the allowance ("ability") or you do not.
This is known after the dice has been thrown.

rigeld2 wrote:
Incorrect. They do not have the ability to re-roll unless they burn an ammo runt.

That sounds a lot like the dice has been rolled, the runt got used, and you now have the "ability".
All of this is linked in the RaW. You cannot perform part of a rule, but not the other when it's in the exact same phrase.

Continue cherry-picking at the Rules to make sure they work, we will talk when things change (FaQ or other).
Master-Crafted, Ammo Runts, and BS6+ Included.

 BlackTalos wrote:
All of this is linked in the RaW. You cannot perform part of a rule, but not the other when it's in the exact same phrase.

I'm not doing that. Please stop asserting this as fact.
I'm not cherry picking anything at all. Orks have no ability to re-roll until they pop a runt.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
All of this is linked in the RaW. You cannot perform part of a rule, but not the other when it's in the exact same phrase.

I'm not cherry picking anything at all. Orks have no ability to re-roll until they pop a runt.

quote the rule, or stop stating this. It is wrong, it is not RAW, and continuing to assert this as a RAW without quoting the rule is lying.

This discussion has two sides (IMHO, with variants of each):

1) Either you "has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" (as is found in Gets Hot) because MC, Ammo runt, PE, TL, Earth Caste Array, etc Special Rules provide you with this ability.

2) You only obtain / gain / have the ability to re-roll once the To Hit roll (or equivalent Blast rule) has been rolled and the result can be gauged. Once you've rolled a 1, 2, 6 etc.

I do understand that you are on the '1)' side? but you are cherry picking conditionals, something that "has the ability to re-roll" does not care for:
(When firing at your PE) If you have the PE rule, do you "has the ability to re-roll"? Yes/No
If you have the MC rule, do you "has the ability to re-roll"? Yes/No
If you have an ammo runt, do you "has the ability to re-roll"? Yes/No
If you have the Earth Caste Array rule, do you "has the ability to re-roll"? Yes/No
If you have the TL rule, do you "has the ability to re-roll"? Yes/No

Any of these answered by "only if..." will be the exact same argument as "only if a 1 is rolled" (for PE and others). Consistency.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
All of this is linked in the RaW. You cannot perform part of a rule, but not the other when it's in the exact same phrase.

I'm not doing that. Please stop asserting this as fact.
I'm not cherry picking anything at all. Orks have no ability to re-roll until they pop a runt.

I'm going to argue this a little, but agree with the overall sentiment.
First the rule:

Codex Orks, Ammo Runt wrote:One use only: a model with an ammo runt can re-roll one To Hit roll when shooting

The model does indeed have the ability to re-roll. But once that re-roll ability is used, the runt is gone.
It can't be used for unlimited blast re-rolls.

You have the ability, but if you use it, the runt is burnt out. You then no longer have the ability.

 grendel083 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
All of this is linked in the RaW. You cannot perform part of a rule, but not the other when it's in the exact same phrase.

I'm not doing that. Please stop asserting this as fact.
I'm not cherry picking anything at all. Orks have no ability to re-roll until they pop a runt.

I'm going to argue this a little, but agree with the overall sentiment.
First the rule:

Codex Orks, Ammo Runt wrote:One use only: a model with an ammo runt can re-roll one To Hit roll when shooting

The model does indeed have the ability to re-roll. But once that re-roll ability is used, the runt is gone.
It can't be used for unlimited blast re-rolls.

You have the ability, but if you use it, the runt is burnt out. You then no longer have the ability.

What is actually stating the underlined? Sure, we can all agree on RaI and this discussion would never even exist.

But by RaW (as this is the issue): Does the model have the ability? as long as you have the runt, yes you do.

Unless you believe that the model has to roll To Hit first, and that a decision to obtain a re-roll burns the runt? A decision made upon having rolled the dice. And this can only be done once. In which case we are in agreement, and the ability is gained upon burning of the runt (or upon rolling a '1', etc).

Otherwise you can stick to "ability" being all-encompassing and ignoring conditions

Removal of the runt is not a condition of the reroll it is a result of using the reroll.

 grendel083 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
All of this is linked in the RaW. You cannot perform part of a rule, but not the other when it's in the exact same phrase.

I'm not doing that. Please stop asserting this as fact.
I'm not cherry picking anything at all. Orks have no ability to re-roll until they pop a runt.

I'm going to argue this a little, but agree with the overall sentiment.
First the rule:

Codex Orks, Ammo Runt wrote:One use only: a model with an ammo runt can re-roll one To Hit roll when shooting

The model does indeed have the ability to re-roll. But once that re-roll ability is used, the runt is gone.
It can't be used for unlimited blast re-rolls.

You have the ability, but if you use it, the runt is burnt out. You then no longer have the ability.

This is what I meant - I apologize for my poor wording.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
All of this is linked in the RaW. You cannot perform part of a rule, but not the other when it's in the exact same phrase.

I'm not doing that. Please stop asserting this as fact.
I'm not cherry picking anything at all. Orks have no ability to re-roll until they pop a runt.

I'm going to argue this a little, but agree with the overall sentiment.
First the rule:

Codex Orks, Ammo Runt wrote:One use only: a model with an ammo runt can re-roll one To Hit roll when shooting

The model does indeed have the ability to re-roll. But once that re-roll ability is used, the runt is gone.
It can't be used for unlimited blast re-rolls.

You have the ability, but if you use it, the runt is burnt out. You then no longer have the ability.

What is actually stating the underlined? Sure, we can all agree on RaI and this discussion would never even exist.

But by RaW (as this is the issue): Does the model have the ability? as long as you have the runt, yes you do.

Unless you believe that the model has to roll To Hit first, and that a decision to obtain a re-roll burns the runt? A decision made upon having rolled the dice. And this can only be done once. In which case we are in agreement, and the ability is gained upon burning of the runt (or upon rolling a '1', etc).

Otherwise you can stick to "ability" being all-encompassing and ignoring conditions

I bolded, underlined, and italicized why his statement is correct. Once you "use" the ability, since it's one use only, the ability doesn't exist anymore. Using it twice breaks the "one use only" rule.

Unless you're going to argue that using isn't using?

If you decide against using the ammo runt to "re-roll one To Hit roll when shooting", do you have the ability to re-roll blasts?
I mean "Blasts and Re-rolls" only requires that the model "has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit".

1) Does an Ork with ammo runt "has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit"? It should be an easy yes/no.

2) When an Ork (possibly the same one) re-roll the Scatter+2D6 because of the "Blasts and Re-rolls" rule, has he "re-roll(-ed) one To Hit roll" (Runt rule)?

Answering 2) might be more tricky, because you need to realise the Ork has not rolled To Hit. So he can't possibly have used the Runt....

 BlackTalos wrote:
If you decide against using the ammo runt to "re-roll one To Hit roll when shooting", do you have the ability to re-roll blasts?
I mean "Blasts and Re-rolls" only requires that the model "has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit".

1) Does an Ork with ammo runt "has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit"? It should be an easy yes/no.

2) When an Ork (possibly the same one) re-roll the Scatter+2D6 because of the "Blasts and Re-rolls" rule, has he "re-roll(-ed) one To Hit roll" (Runt rule)?

Answering 2) might be more tricky, because you need to realise the Ork has not rolled To Hit. So he can't possibly have used the Runt....

Actually, #2 isn't so tricky. The section of the BRB "Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls" says "If a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast Weapon, the player must re-roll both the Scatter Dice and the 2D6." It says "...has the ability to re-roll to hit and chooses to do so..." so even though blasts don't roll to hit, the interaction between blasts and re-rolls is clearly that you are "choosing to re-roll to hit".

I wonder if we're combining "ability" and "possibility" into one word. Doesn't possessing the ammo runt give you the option to gain the ability? You don't have it yet, but when you decide to you can. Until you actually use the runt, you don't have the ability.... Though it sounds weird, you just have the ability to get the ability. Which is one degree of separation too many.

Just a thought. Then again maybe I'm splitting hairs too finely (something we are all inconsistently capable of).

 BlackTalos wrote:
1) Does an Ork with ammo runt "has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit"? It should be an easy yes/no.

Yes.

2) When an Ork (possibly the same one) re-roll the Scatter+2D6 because of the "Blasts and Re-rolls" rule, has he "re-roll(-ed) one To Hit roll" (Runt rule)?

He has used his ability to re-roll To Hit by re-rolling the Scatter.
If he didn't have the ability, he couldn't re-roll Scatter.


Chooses to do what?
"re-roll it's rolls To Hit"
So even though you don't roll To Hit with a blast, re-rolling the scatter is choosing to re-roll To Hit. Explicitly. Proven using actual rules.

It's literally the same as Master Crafted - which you apparently accepted my argument then (because you haven't attempted to rebut it) but you're pushing this one now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lobukia wrote:
I wonder if we're combining "ability" and "possibility" into one word. Doesn't possessing the ammo runt give you the option to gain the ability? You don't have it yet, but when you decide to you can. Until you actually use the runt, you don't have the ability.... Though it sounds weird, you just have the ability to get the ability. Which is one degree of separation too many.

Just a thought. Then again maybe I'm splitting hairs too finely (something we are all inconsistently capable of).

That's BlackTalos' argument, which has been proven incorrect - using rules quotes - if you'd read the thread.

lol. Rigeld, I love your sloppy and liberal use of the word "proven" and the assumption that your arguments are clear.

If you read what you're attacking me on, I'm saying that maybe you can't use the ammo runt's reroll unless you burn the runt. Having it isn't enough. That's what you said a few posts ago. What's your beef here?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
the ability to re-roll versus having an available re-roll.

if the availability to re-roll gives you a re-roll and not having an actual available re-roll then orks do not need to 'burn' or actually use ammo runts to get a re-roll if they have an ammo runt.

Incorrect. They do not have the ability to re-roll unless they burn an ammo runt.

 Lobukia wrote:
lol. Rigeld, I love your sloppy and liberal use of the word "proven" and the assumption that your arguments are clear.

If they're unclear, please ask me to elaborate instead of attempting to mock me. I'm being as clear as I can, and the rules quotes supplied support my statements.

If you read what you're attacking me on, I'm saying that maybe you can't use the ammo runt's reroll unless you burn the runt. Having it isn't enough. That's what you said a few posts ago. What's your beef here?

And since I made that post, I was corrected on my wording. Perhaps you should read the entire thread? That'd be great.

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
the ability to re-roll versus having an available re-roll.

if the availability to re-roll gives you a re-roll and not having an actual available re-roll then orks do not need to 'burn' or actually use ammo runts to get a re-roll if they have an ammo runt.

Incorrect. They do not have the ability to re-roll unless they burn an ammo runt.

 BlackTalos wrote:
This discussion has two sides (IMHO, with variants of each):

1) Either you "has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" (as is found in Gets Hot) because MC, Ammo runt, PE, TL, Earth Caste Array, etc Special Rules provide you with this ability.

2) You only obtain / gain / have the ability to re-roll once the To Hit roll (or equivalent Blast rule) has been rolled and the result can be gauged. Once you've rolled a 1, 2, 6 etc.

I do understand that you are on the '1)' side? but you are cherry picking conditionals, something that "has the ability to re-roll" does not care for:
(When firing at your PE) If you have the PE rule, do you "has the ability to re-roll"? Yes/No
If you have the MC rule, do you "has the ability to re-roll"? Yes/No
If you have an ammo runt, do you "has the ability to re-roll"? Yes/No
If you have the Earth Caste Array rule, do you "has the ability to re-roll"? Yes/No
If you have the TL rule, do you "has the ability to re-roll"? Yes/No

I would like to point out as well that there is a difference between "can re-roll 1's To Hit" and "gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit"

rigeld2 wrote:
So even though you don't roll To Hit with a blast, re-rolling the scatter is choosing to re-roll To Hit. Explicitly. Proven using actual rules.

Oh, but I fully agree with this.
Completely.
Can PE choose to re-roll To Hit when no 1 is rolled? I mean "re-rolling the scatter is choosing to re-roll To Hit", so surely you must have been able to do so?

rigeld2 wrote:
It's literally the same as Master Crafted - which you apparently accepted my argument then (because you haven't attempted to rebut it) but you're pushing this one now?

Yes, they are both the same! You must "use his ability to re-roll To Hit" with the Runt, just as you must "use" Master-Crafted to re-roll the scatter, and just as you must roll a 1 to re-roll To Hit with PE.

I'm glad we agree that certain rules must be used before the models gains the ability to re-roll.
Like roll a "1".
Or use his ability to re-roll To Hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
I would like to point out as well that there is a difference between "can re-roll 1's To Hit" and "gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit"

Indeed, very relevant for the side arguing the ability is always present:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's demonstrable (and has been demonstrated despite your handwaving) that BS6+ is as re-rollable as Prescience and PE.

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So even though you don't roll To Hit with a blast, re-rolling the scatter is choosing to re-roll To Hit. Explicitly. Proven using actual rules.

Oh, but I fully agree with this.
Completely.
Can PE choose to re-roll To Hit when no 1 is rolled? I mean "re-rolling the scatter is choosing to re-roll To Hit", so surely you must have been able to do so?

What you're saying is that a model with PE does not have the ability to re-roll To Hit?

Despite the rules saying they do?

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So even though you don't roll To Hit with a blast, re-rolling the scatter is choosing to re-roll To Hit. Explicitly. Proven using actual rules.

Oh, but I fully agree with this.
Completely.
Can PE choose to re-roll To Hit when no 1 is rolled? I mean "re-rolling the scatter is choosing to re-roll To Hit", so surely you must have been able to do so?

What you're saying is that a model with PE does not have the ability to re-roll To Hit?

Despite the rules saying they do?

Only if,
What you're saying is that a model with MC / Ammo runt do not have the ability to re-roll To Hit, (on 3 simultaneous shots - Heavy 3,Blast)?

Despite the rules saying it applies to 1 roll?

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So even though you don't roll To Hit with a blast, re-rolling the scatter is choosing to re-roll To Hit. Explicitly. Proven using actual rules.

Oh, but I fully agree with this.
Completely.
Can PE choose to re-roll To Hit when no 1 is rolled? I mean "re-rolling the scatter is choosing to re-roll To Hit", so surely you must have been able to do so?

What you're saying is that a model with PE does not have the ability to re-roll To Hit?

Despite the rules saying they do?

Only if,
What you're saying is that a model with MC / Ammo runt do not have the ability to re-roll To Hit, (on 3 simultaneous shots - Heavy 3,Blast)?

Despite the rules saying it applies to 1 roll?

Correct - they do not have the ability to re-roll To Hit on all 3, because the abilities are one use only. Using them twice breaks the "one use" rule. As I said before.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So even though you don't roll To Hit with a blast, re-rolling the scatter is choosing to re-roll To Hit. Explicitly. Proven using actual rules.

Oh, but I fully agree with this.
Completely.
Can PE choose to re-roll To Hit when no 1 is rolled? I mean "re-rolling the scatter is choosing to re-roll To Hit", so surely you must have been able to do so?

What you're saying is that a model with PE does not have the ability to re-roll To Hit?

Despite the rules saying they do?

Only if,
What you're saying is that a model with MC / Ammo runt do not have the ability to re-roll To Hit, (on 3 simultaneous shots - Heavy 3,Blast)?

Despite the rules saying it applies to 1 roll?

Correct - they do not have the ability to re-roll To Hit on all 3, because the abilities are one use only. Using them twice breaks the "one use" rule. As I said before.

Let's, yet again just use the same words (sorry if this is rude in any way)

Correct - "they" do not have the ability to re-roll To Hit on all 3, because the abilities are for rolls of "1" only. Using them on any other roll breaks the "failed To Hit rolls of 1" rule. As I said before.

"They" being PE as you might have guessed

Youre confusing conditional reroll with a reroll with conditions.

You do this every thread. Every single one.

PE has a condition that it is only available against your PE. It has a reroll on condition you roll a 1 to hit. THe former is important, the latter unimportant.

An ammo runt is the same. It has the eonditon "one use only" before you have the ability - or rather, after one use only, you no longer have the ability. It then can be used to reroll. The former is unimportant to blast and rerolls. The latter is relevant.

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So even though you don't roll To Hit with a blast, re-rolling the scatter is choosing to re-roll To Hit. Explicitly. Proven using actual rules.

Oh, but I fully agree with this.
Completely.
Can PE choose to re-roll To Hit when no 1 is rolled? I mean "re-rolling the scatter is choosing to re-roll To Hit", so surely you must have been able to do so?

What you're saying is that a model with PE does not have the ability to re-roll To Hit?

Despite the rules saying they do?

Only if,
What you're saying is that a model with MC / Ammo runt do not have the ability to re-roll To Hit, (on 3 simultaneous shots - Heavy 3,Blast)?

Despite the rules saying it applies to 1 roll?

Correct - they do not have the ability to re-roll To Hit on all 3, because the abilities are one use only. Using them twice breaks the "one use" rule. As I said before.

Let's, yet again just use the same words (sorry if this is rude in any way)

Correct - "they" do not have the ability to re-roll To Hit on all 3, because the abilities are for rolls of "1" only. Using them on any other roll breaks the "failed To Hit rolls of 1" rule. As I said before.

"They" being PE as you might have guessed

Not a comparable situation at all - again.
If you use a one use only ability, you do not have the ability any more. It's not "conditional" it's a one use ability.

Does a model with PE have the ability to re-roll a To Hit roll? Unqualified question, please give an unqualified answer.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Youre confusing conditional reroll with a reroll with conditions.

You do this every thread. Every single one.

PE has a condition that it is only available against your PE. It has a reroll on condition you roll a 1 to hit. THe former is important, the latter unimportant.

Ammo runt has a condition that it is only available once. It has a reroll on condition you can only have 1 roll. THe former is important, the latter unimportant.
So, 3 shots, 3 Blast Re-rolls?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
An ammo runt is the same. It has the eonditon "one use only" before you have the ability - or rather, after one use only, you no longer have the ability. It then can be used to reroll. The former is unimportant to blast and rerolls. The latter is relevant.

PE is the same. It has the condition "available against your PE" before you have the ability - or rather, against "not-PE", you no longer have the ability. It then can be used to reroll 1s. The former is unimportant to blast and rerolls. The latter is relevant.

rigeld2 wrote:
Does a model with PE have the ability to re-roll a To Hit roll? Unqualified question, please give an unqualified answer.

Does a model with Ammo Runt/MC have the ability to re-roll a To Hit roll? my answer will be your answer.


PS: replacing a few words in your phrases shows that the situations, and conditionals, are all the same. Conditional reroll VS reroll with conditions is whish-listing. But even if i play along with those games, it will still not work. You will have Ammo Runts and MC re-roll 3 times for 3 shots, breaking rules.

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Does a model with PE have the ability to re-roll a To Hit roll? Unqualified question, please give an unqualified answer.

Does a model with Ammo Runt/MC have the ability to re-roll a To Hit roll? my answer will be your answer.

The answers are necessarily different. The answer to PE is "Yes." The answer to Ammo Runt/MC is "Yes" the first time the question is asked, "No." every other time.

So no, your answer cannot be my answer without making up rules or breaking them. And you're the one doing so - my argument is both consistent and doesn't break any rules.

No, it isnt "whish" listing.

Before you have an ability to reroll to hit with PE, you must be firing at your PE. NOt firing at PE? No ability.

Rerolling 1s is irrelevant. Proven
Rerolling all failed is irrelevant. Proven
Rerolling 2s on every 2nd sunday is irrelevant. Proven.

BEcause all of these are conditions ON THE REROLL. ,not conditions TO HAVE the ability to reroll

Reword abnd change the rules all you like, it hasnt washed in any thread, and never will.

From a rules perspective youre done, as your argument is refuted. COntinue arguing HYWPI if you wish.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Does a model with PE have the ability to re-roll a To Hit roll? Unqualified question, please give an unqualified answer.

Does a model with Ammo Runt/MC have the ability to re-roll a To Hit roll? my answer will be your answer.

The answers are necessarily different. The answer to PE is "Yes." The answer to Ammo Runt/MC is "Yes" the first time the question is asked, "No." every other time.

So no, your answer cannot be my answer without making up rules or breaking them. And you're the one doing so - my argument is both consistent and doesn't break any rules.

So far we have been arguing "your argument", because mine is completely different (and breaks absolutely no rules).

I am not too worried about the "one use only" of the Runt, others argued it better in other threads (and got Nos to concede "not using the Runt" IIRC, a while back...).

What i would focus on is the "conditional reroll against a reroll with conditions", aptly put by Nos.

Codex Orks, Ammo Runt wrote:One use only: a model with an ammo runt can re-roll one To Hit roll when shooting

"One use only" is the condition to get the re-roll.
"re-roll one To Hit roll when shooting" is the conditional re-roll.

"can re-roll one To Hit roll" has the exact same grammatical strength as "re-rolls (failed) rolls of 1" and as "re-roll one failed roll To Hit".

We are now going to go full circle with you saying:
"If you roll more than 1 MC, you broke the MC rule"
"If you roll more than 1 runt re-roll, you broke the runt rule"

Which is the same as
"If you roll no 1, you broke the PE rule"

And loop, and loop and loop.
Same thing, same rules and you can cherry-pick MC and Runts over PE...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, it isnt "whish" listing.

Before you have an ability to reroll to hit with PE, you must be firing at your PE. NOt firing at PE? No ability.

Rerolling 1s is irrelevant. Proven
Rerolling all failed is irrelevant. Proven
Rerolling 2s on every 2nd sunday is irrelevant. Proven.

BEcause all of these are conditions ON THE REROLL. ,not conditions TO HAVE the ability to reroll

Reword abnd change the rules all you like, it hasnt washed in any thread, and never will.

From a rules perspective youre done, as your argument is refuted. COntinue arguing HYWPI if you wish.

Before you have an ability to reroll to hit with MC/Runts, you must be firing once only. NOt firing just once? No ability.

Rerolling one roll is irrelevant. Proven
Rerolling one failed roll is irrelevant. Proven
Rerolling 4 rolls of 6s is irrelevant. Proven.

BEcause all of these are conditions ON THE REROLL. ,not conditions TO HAVE the ability to reroll

Reword abnd change the rules all you like, it hasnt washed in any thread, and never will.

From a rules perspective youre done, as your argument is refuted. COntinue arguing HYWPI if you wish.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, it isnt "whish" listing.

Before you have an ability to reroll to hit with PE, you must be firing at your PE. NOt firing at PE? No ability.

Rerolling 1s is irrelevant. Proven
Rerolling all failed is irrelevant. Proven
Rerolling 2s on every 2nd sunday is irrelevant. Proven.

BEcause all of these are conditions ON THE REROLL. ,not conditions TO HAVE the ability to reroll

Reword abnd change the rules all you like, it hasnt washed in any thread, and never will.

From a rules perspective youre done, as your argument is refuted. COntinue arguing HYWPI if you wish.

nothing you stated is proven is actually proven, they are just things you state and claim are proven.

having to roll a 1 before you are allowed to reroll is not a condition on the re-roll, it is a condition on the to hit roll to get a re-roll.

a to hit roll that can never be made with a blast weapon.

A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy.

so it gets the re-roll on rolling 1s to hit, Did the unit roll to hit and roll a 1 [the listed condition to get a re-roll] when it fired its blast weapon? no.

claiming it is a condition on the re-roll is false, utterly.

the model does not have a re-roll that is only usable if it rolls a 1, this is never stated nor suggest-further there is no rule anywhere that says 'has a re-roll but may only use it if it rolls x number', it has a to hit roll that it can re-roll if it rolls a 1.

No, incorrect, again.

One is a condition On having the ability. The other is a condition on the Reroll.

Blasts and rerolls cares about one and not the other.

Blacktalos - as you refuse to engage, I assume you are conceding the RAW. Is as proven.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Blacktalos - as you refuse to engage, I assume you are conceding the RAW. Is as proven.

Replacing 'PE' with 'MC' or 'Ammo Runt' is not refusing to engage. It is showing that, for you to stay consistent in "conditional reroll" V "reroll with conditions", you end up breaking the MC and Runt rules, allowing 3 Shots to re-roll when the rules only cater for 1.

At least rigeld understands that a blanket ignore of "reroll with conditions" will create this issue.

An issue not found if you simply follow the rules for re-rolls: Ability/Availability is only present when the dice has been rolled.


EDIT: To which i'll add that further contribution is just tiring.
I get your position (from RaW), i usually argue in favour of it when i can no longer be bothered to explain how it really works, and come back to this infinite loop.
It just isn't correct, but your opinion will never change, as much as i can try to give concise proof that it does not work in the current RaW.
So i'll just put my usual "i'm out of here until something changes", kinda like back in the Void Shield Generator = 1 Hit days...