It started with Duffybear posting hints on Warseer. Harry contributed as well. Today the puzzle was solved. Duffybear was spot on with the Harlequin Troupe sprue and Harry should be well known for excellent rumors already. Duffybear's riddles hint towards a 'Blue Marine'-release so the new armour type, Mark IX, should be available for most SM chapters.

Duffybear on Warseer

Originally Posted by Mattcrowther00
Ohhhhhh what about MK9 power armour?

Mattcrowther00 wins

Here's what I know -
I have been told that there is a new mark of power armour coming at some point in the future. This is to help GW protect it's IP, so expect the design to be different from any previous version. It has been suggested that it looks a bit like Ironman's armour, but I haven't seen it so I don't know how close this is to reality. I don't have a time frame for the arrival and I don't know if old kits will be phased out or if they will remain alongside it. I'm guessing/hoping that older kits will remain as they are and all new kits will feature mark IX armour. This makes the most sense to me, but then this is GW we are talking about here.

That's all I know at this stage and Harry probably knows more than me about what's coming because he's hinting at bigger shocks.

As always take this with a pinch of salt. As you all know, I pass on what I hear, so if it's incorrect I apologise in advance.

I've had some fun over the last couple of days with the hints and riddles, so I may do it this way from now on. Sorry if that will cause you problems.

Next post

Originally Posted by Bob Hunk
Haha, ok yes now you've said it all your clues are really obvious. Wow, maybe I really am going to be ahead of the curve. But hold on, if it looks like Ironman, how does that help protect their IP?

I think it just means that it's more advanced than the previous versions with all their nuts bolts and rivets showing. Maybe a bit more streamlined and the helmet changed slightly or something like that. remember that the Mechanicus have been gathering alien tech for a while now so I wouldn't be surprised if they have borrowed a few techniques from another species. I wouldn't think too much about the Ironman suit look just yet as it was only one person's interpretation.

Sorry about the mix up with mark IX and X at the beginning. One source said it was X but he was including GK armour as a mark. Finally got to the bottom of that after talking to him again.

I'm actually really looking forward to it! The FW suits have been great and I imagine these will be just as cool.

In the words of the great Pie-king

"BRING IT ON!"

P.S I told you it was obvious.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?404105-2015-40k-releases-according-to-BoLS&p=7382664&viewfull=1#post7382664


Harry

You are laughing now. This will cause a ***** storm of similar proportions on the 40K boards to the one we have been enjoying on the fantasy side.

Oh you guys are gonna love it.

Duffybear on Warseer

I do wonder if they will introduce it as a single unit.

I'm not sure if it was an official piece of artwork, but I remember seeing an Ultramarine with an Ironman style helmet faceplate at some point. Maybe they are just working off of that and only making slight changes to rest of the suit. The centurion kit has proved that they are willing to advance the story and the tech ever so slightly so it is possible for them to add new units in.

I suppose that these new suits could in fact be reworked older marks that a chapter has taken to improving themselves. If they are very similar and just feature a new helmet, set of arms and shoulder plates, or something like that then they would end up compatible with the other marine and variant chapter kits as well. If this is the case and the suit is similar to the Ultramarines art and they are the designers, then that could also explain why the new suit would be suddenly so widespread - Ultramarines being the parent chapter of so many mainstream chapters after all.

Just some thoughts.

Originally Posted by Commissar Merces
Yes because we needed more space marines before plastic sisters or a flavorful Chaos book.

This sounds like the least cool idea GW has had since Grimnar turned into Santa

I don't know when they are coming out. It could be before or after CSM/SoB (if those rumours are true). It could even be next year for all I know.

Originally Posted by Gobskrag 'Eadbasha
Hey Duffy, you wouldn't happen to know if there's anything to the Tzeentch and Sisters rumor would ya?

Sorry but I don't know anything about either of those. I really wish I did though, because Sisters are my favourite army

No date yet - we will probably get more rumors soon enough

I am guessing a nee Space Marine release is coming soon, then.

 Verviedi wrote:

I am guessing a nee Space Marine release is coming soon, then.

Which horrifies me.

The current SM book is one of the few decent matches between rules and fluff, and none of the new books indicate anything like Chapter Tactics and SM's current decent internal balance will survive.

That being said, I am not opposed to a new mark of power armour, and given how GW learned in court that no, their design is not an immutable element of the universe which they can put their stamp on, I can see something different coming out. One of the best plastic kits GW has released, well, ever, was the re-done tactical kit as well.

Rather than a new armour mark I'd much prefer them to do more plastic older mark parts and to get a damned move on with a revamped assault marine kit

Yeah, I'm not buying it...

So they're going to replace all the standard Mk.VIII stuff to "protect their IP"? I don't buy it. The standard Marine is GW's single most important and iconic image. They wouldn't change that.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So they're going to replace all the standard Mk.VIII stuff to "protect their IP"? I don't buy it. The standard Marine is GW's single most important and iconic image. They wouldn't change that.

It's still power armor, it couldn't look that different.

 Verviedi wrote:

I am guessing a nee Space Marine release is coming soon, then.

Not necessarily. I doubt a new codex is coming. Surely it's just a different Mk to use for Tac squads etc? But the SM are probably the biggest part of GW IP. It's the most recognisably GW thing out there.

I think the IP protection is not why GW will make an additional armour type for marines. It will sell well, that's why. No new codex, looks more like a Leviathan/Exterminatus-type release

Harry

You are laughing now. This will cause a ***** storm of similar proportions on the 40K boards to the one we have been enjoying on the fantasy side.

Oh you guys are gonna love it.

I´m loving how GW seems to be shaking things up! It´s like looking at a car crash in slow motion

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So they're going to replace all the standard Mk.VIII stuff to "protect their IP"? I don't buy it. The standard Marine is GW's single most important and iconic image. They wouldn't change that.

They would to generate a whole bunch of sales though. A shiny new armour mark woulod be bought by all kinds of players. Wouldn't be their dumbest idea ever.

And to be honest, with all the updates over the years there isn't one definitive marine mark/silhouette anyway.

Their bigger issue is that they still won't be able to copyright what they think they'll be able to copyright. Even if they make it more complex for bits casters to make compatible add-ons/analogues they'll adapt soon enough. So yeah, for a sales spike I do buy this but not for t'other reasons.

I guess making MK8 armor was too difficult so going straight to MK9.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So they're going to replace all the standard Mk.VIII stuff to "protect their IP"? I don't buy it. The standard Marine is GW's single most important and iconic image. They wouldn't change that.

All of us on the fantasy side said this exact same thing when we heard "Fantasy is going to become skirmish, possibly with round bases".


Naaaah! Never going to happen.....


Remember what is driving most of this ; protectable IP. If even the most iconic IP of theirs can be (as they would see it) "infringed upon", then they have to do something to protect it, or risk its dilution.


I'm not saying the rumors are definitely true, but I wouldn't be all that surprised at all by it.

I wouldn't mind this being true. Options are always welcome.

Hoping it resembles Dornian Heresey Damocles armor.

I'm predicting MkIX "Nekkid" Armour.

In order to properly protect their IP and stave off those horrid idea stealing and Hobby ruining 3rd party bits manufacturers like Anvil Industry, Puppets War and any other company that makes like-power armour bits, from now on all space marines now go into battle butt naked. Yes naked.

The new MkIX "Nekkid" armour is the latest in oiled skin battle plate. Only the best for the best of the best!

The best to protect an IP is to produce something new, sell it, and produce something new again before others can sell their copied product. This seems what they are doing. They wont cut older SM products, just make new ones which will create bigger sales and then continue with the next

 Haight wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So they're going to replace all the standard Mk.VIII stuff to "protect their IP"? I don't buy it. The standard Marine is GW's single most important and iconic image. They wouldn't change that.

All of us on the fantasy side said this exact same thing when we heard "Fantasy is going to become skirmish, possibly with round bases".


Naaaah! Never going to happen.....


Remember what is driving most of this ; protectable IP. If even the most iconic IP of theirs can be (as they would see it) "infringed upon", then they have to do something to protect it, or risk its dilution.


I'm not saying the rumors are definitely true, but I wouldn't be all that surprised at all by it.

I don't see how just making a new armour type protects the IP though? I mean, it's not going to me more iconic than SM armour already is, and it could be just as easily 'infringed upon' as the armour that already exists.

If they're doing it, it's just to sell more models. As a fix for IP infringement, I don't see how it works.

 ImAGeek wrote:
As a fix for IP infringement, I don't see how it works.

It doesn't actually have to protect their IP, they just need to believe it does. The whole thing's very Orky.

 Dentry wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
As a fix for IP infringement, I don't see how it works.

It doesn't actually have to protect their IP, they just need to believe it does. The whole thing's very Orky.

Haha, the Placebo effect in action.

This sounds really unlikely, but we'll see.

Harry hinted that a ragestorm would ensue, but I really cannot see how slightly tweaked armour design would cause that. Maybe there is a slight scale change as well? On the other hand, that would be incredibly risky, it would invalidate FW's HH line, and risk alienating GW's most important customers, the marine players.

As for new designs, I always liked this concept, especially the shoulderpads and the asymmetrical leg armour.

Yeah, what's the point of the wonky leg armour. That makes no sense.

I want it to be sleek. I want it to have nice hard edges and a sharper look....


And then I want Mantic to sue the crap out of them when it looks like this!




In all seriousness, I don't like the idea of a new armour mark that looks radically different from the previous Mks, all of which share very similar design features. Plastic Mk8 could have been cool, but Mk9? Why?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So they're going to replace all the standard Mk.VIII stuff to "protect their IP"? I don't buy it. The standard Marine is GW's single most important and iconic image. They wouldn't change that.

yep, they might introduce a new mark for a new unit, but they sure wont replace all the previous marines kit.

 Snrub wrote:
I'm predicting MkIX "Nekkid" Armour.

In order to properly protect their IP and stave off those horrid idea stealing and Hobby ruining 3rd party bits manufacturers like Anvil Industry, Puppets War and any other company that makes like-power armour bits, from now on all space marines now go into battle butt naked. Yes naked.

The new MkIX "Nekkid" armour is the latest in oiled skin battle plate. Only the best for the best of the best!

But the leaders will be wearing helmets

Typical... soooo... typical....

I have just spent 6 years building and painting a complete Ultramarines 2nd Company, only have about 25 more Marines to paint which I have already bought...

So this rumour must be true as it's exactly the sort of thing that happens to me...

Well I guess maybe the move to 32mm bases was a pre-cursor to slightly biggerised Marines.

I also suspect that they simply won't be Space Marines - in fact the BA Codex was "Adeptus Astartes".

I suspect the most significant change has to be the shoulder pads? That was the one iconic element that was proved to be un-copyrightable.

I also suspect a helmet change as well as the MkVII and MkVIII are very similar to a certain Star Wars Storm Trooper?

It is kind of a shame, but I love all the armour marks and have II through to VIII so far in my army.

I just don't want them to be so good I end up wanting to buy more as i have way too many marines as it is....

*sigh* It seems GW really don't want my money anymore.

They genuinely do seem to have completely lost touch with the reasons why people are into GW products in the first place - if I wanted sleek sci-fi design I'd be buying Infinity, I like GW because the aesthetic is OTT grimdark nonsense.

None of this idiocy is going to "protect their IP" in the way they want it to - if the newer aesthetic is popular enough you'll still have not-this and not-that models from third parties, you'll still have compatible-with-X bits being made, and unmentionable people will still recast their stuff - what they cazn't seem to get their brains around is they don't have and never will have the power to stop those things from happening. The only reason they believe they even have the right to stop those things(recasting aside) is for years anyone they sent legally unsupportable C&Ds to capitulated because they couldn't afford the cost of a trial, and between Chapterhouse and the embarrassing Spots the Space Marine debacle that's not going to happen anymore. The spell is broken, we've all seen behind the curtain.

Their IP is as protected now as it will be after all these ridiculous changes-for-the-sake-of-change, and all they'll have done is drive away another wedge of their ever-declining customer base. Somebody seriously needs to slap GW's management upside the head and drill it into their thick skulls that the way to salvage their business and market share is to beat the competition with the quality and value of your product, not trying to twist your product and business model into some mythical perfectly-protectable IP that just lets you litigate everyone else out of existence.

Mark VIII is my favourite, I think,and I'm not sure that current GW can come up with something better. Centurions are...not great. A more true-scale and refined standard Marine kit would be cool, but with all the kits they'd have to replace it'll never happen.

They should just crush their competition by using their economy of scale, in-house production and mould-making and consitent quality (whoops, that dropped like a rock over the years,too bad) advantages.

If it ends up with hard line and a sharper look, it's not going to look like a Mantic miniature!

 Yodhrin wrote:
*sigh* It seems GW really don't want my money anymore.

They genuinely do seem to have completely lost touch with the reasons why people are into GW products in the first place - if I wanted sleek sci-fi design I'd be buying Infinity, I like GW because the aesthetic is OTT grimdark nonsense.

None of this idiocy is going to "protect their IP" in the way they want it to - if the newer aesthetic is popular enough you'll still have not-this and not-that models from third parties, you'll still have compatible-with-X bits being made, and unmentionable people will still recast their stuff - what they cazn't seem to get their brains around is they don't have and never will have the power to stop those things from happening. The only reason they believe they even have the right to stop those things(recasting aside) is for years anyone they sent legally unsupportable C&Ds to capitulated because they couldn't afford the cost of a trial, and between Chapterhouse and the embarrassing Spots the Space Marine debacle that's not going to happen anymore. The spell is broken, we've all seen behind the curtain.

Their IP is as protected now as it will be after all these ridiculous changes-for-the-sake-of-change, and all they'll have done is drive away another wedge of their ever-declining customer base. Somebody seriously needs to slap GW's management upside the head and drill it into their thick skulls that the way to salvage their business and market share is to beat the competition with the quality and value of your product, not trying to twist your product and business model into some mythical perfectly-protectable IP that just lets you litigate everyone else out of existence.

Ranting for the sake of ranting.

 Crimson wrote:
This sounds really unlikely, but we'll see.

Harry hinted that a ragestorm would ensue, but I really cannot see how slightly tweaked armour design would cause that. Maybe there is a slight scale change as well? On the other hand, that would be incredibly risky, it would invalidate FW's HH line, and risk alienating GW's most important customers, the marine players.

As for new designs, I always liked this concept, especially the shoulderpads and the asymmetrical leg armour.

I would be back into 40K so fast everyone within 100meters of me would get whiplash if their Mk.IX armor looked like that.

I have some pencil sketches of what Advanced SM armor might look like.

It is a sort of cross between the beaky Marines (forget the Mk. ... Mk. VI?) and the Arm Suits from GITS:SAC:SSS

MB

GW is providing maximum entertainment.

They're doing a better parody of themselves than anything the forums could come up with.

Amazing.

I almost hope it does look like Iron Man.

I'd love Geedub to get a taste of its own medicine from Disney.

"GW wants to protect its IP"

"looks like Iron Man's armour"

Stopped reading.

This is not happening.

Frankly, after the last couple of months, I just don't have any energy left to disbelieve GW doing completely insane things.

Duffybear on Warseer

I do wonder if they will introduce it as a single unit.

I'm not sure if it was an official piece of artwork, but I remember seeing an Ultramarine with an Ironman style helmet faceplate at some point. Maybe they are just working off of that and only making slight changes to rest of the suit. The centurion kit has proved that they are willing to advance the story and the tech ever so slightly so it is possible for them to add new units in.

I suppose that these new suits could in fact be reworked older marks that a chapter has taken to improving themselves. If they are very similar and just feature a new helmet, set of arms and shoulder plates, or something like that then they would end up compatible with the other marine and variant chapter kits as well. If this is the case and the suit is similar to the Ultramarines art and they are the designers, then that could also explain why the new suit would be suddenly so widespread - Ultramarines being the parent chapter of so many mainstream chapters after all.

Just some thoughts.

Originally Posted by Commissar Merces
Yes because we needed more space marines before plastic sisters or a flavorful Chaos book.

This sounds like the least cool idea GW has had since Grimnar turned into Santa

I don't know when they are coming out. It could be before or after CSM/SoB (if those rumours are true). It could even be next year for all I know.

Originally Posted by Gobskrag 'Eadbasha
Hey Duffy, you wouldn't happen to know if there's anything to the Tzeentch and Sisters rumor would ya?

Sorry but I don't know anything about either of those. I really wish I did though, because Sisters are my favourite army

We will see, these are very early rumors of a new armour type for sure.

I wonder if it'll be new tech or stuff the Adeptus Mechanicus just found lying around as usual.

"Oh, you guys *wanted* this advanced armor? We just thought it was junk and used it to decorate the Adeptus Gazebocus."

"It works?"

 Snrub wrote:
Yeah, what's the point of the wonky leg armour. That makes no sense.

It's not just the leg, the arm on that side is larger and more armored as well. It's designed so that it's the side the marine advances forward with and thus is more heavily armored for better protection on the advance. It's a revamped idea of one of the older armor marks which did the same thing, though not so aesthetically obvious.

 Accolade wrote:
I wonder if it'll be new tech or stuff the Adeptus Mechanicus just found lying around as usual.

"Oh, you guys *wanted* this advanced armor? We just thought it was junk and used it to decorate the Adeptus Gazebocus."

Gave me a good chuckle. Have an exalt, sir.

 Medium of Death wrote:
"GW wants to protect its IP"

"looks like Iron Man's armour"

Stopped reading.

You caught that too 'ay? Yeah. Pretty funny stuff.

Am I the only one thinking this?



Honestly, if Harry hadn't attached his name to it, I'd just assume someone had tripped over this on Google images and made up a story to fit.

Beakie 2.0 just looks like a StarCraft marine to me.

I have big doubts about this one but I suppose we don't have long to wait to find out. Maybe it's that halfway between PA and TDA suit that was mooted before Centurions appeared? More likely than redoing all the marine kits. Or it'll be a replacement for the ageing Assault Squad kit. That could work.

Platuan4th wrote:It's not just the leg, the arm on that side is larger and more armored as well. It's designed so that it's the side the marine advances forward with and thus is more heavily armored for better protection on the advance. It's a revamped idea of one of the older armor marks which did the same thing, though not so aesthetically obvious.

Huh. I didn't notice it.

That being said, I don't really like it. It's too.... modern. Not Grimdark enough. Doesn't fit 40k in the slightest.

Azreal13 wrote:Am I the only one thinking this?

I also thought of the Dorian Heresy armour too. Which I also don't like the look of. Too sleek and not pauldrony enough.


But hey... My opinion counts for gak in the grand scheme. So meh.

I was just about to post the Dornian Heresy Ultra Armour.

It could be something similar but I really don't put much weight into this rumour with the directly conflicting ideas in the opening post.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
"GW wants to protect its IP"

"looks like Iron Man's armour"

Stopped reading.

You caught that too 'ay? Yeah. Pretty funny stuff.

It's like the people writing fake rumours aren't even trying any more.

The concept of even remotely copying one of the largest IP's out there as a way to secure your future is pants on head.

There's also no need for more SM infantry as GW has just released the Blood Angels kit which was a variant of the re done SM kit.

If I was just pulling things out of thin air I'd say there's more chance of us getting brand new plastic Imperial Assassins than this, given all the dynamic poses we've seen in the Harlequin line. (not a rumour, just made up example)

Ooooh, shiny. A new mark of armor for the poster boys that looks different to all those before just to strenghten their IP. No way changing the iconic look would backfire at all...

You people do realize that Iron Man's suit is as generic as they get? And the only things that could be conceivably fought over is the colour scheme and possibly the glowy central part?

Everything else has been used over and over and over in so many different iterations you could not possibly count them all. The goddamn Space Marine shoulder pad has more stake to being a distinct piece of protectable IP than the whole IM armour combined.

The way I understand it, every change in 40k since 7th dropped has been a nostalgic nudge to 2nd edition. They even bring back the halequins as a force of their own.
Advancing the marines to high tech ironman armour sounds a bit off in the current MO.

Not that I think the rumor is null and void, just saying.

So, IF they are going to make new armour and IF it is an attempt to protect their IP ( that's still funny, no matter how many times people say it), my guess would be:

New armour at a different scale from current minis, hence the 32mm bases. The new minis will be sculpted and cut in more unique poses, with the joints being dispersed to different parts of the miniatures in the line, meaning less customisability and no backwards compatibility. That way it is not profitable for 3rd parties to make parts that only fit one or two figures in the line.
Then, with no freeloading thieves who can hide behind laws that were designed to prevent pig rustling, GW wins all the monies!

(ok, the bit about GW gets rich is not strictly part of my prediction)

H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
"GW wants to protect its IP"

"looks like Iron Man's armour"

Stopped reading.

You caught that too 'ay? Yeah. Pretty funny stuff.

His Master's Voice wrote:You people do realize that Iron Man's suit is as generic as they get? And the only things that could be conceivably fought over is the colour scheme and possibly the glowy central part?

Everything else has been used over and over and over in so many different iterations you could not possibly count them all. The goddamn Space Marine shoulder pad has more stake to being a distinct piece of protectable IP than the whole IM armour combined.

I don't think it's funny because I actually expect them to get sued by disney. I think it's funny because making your power armor look like Iron Man will in no way make your IP any stronger. In fact there have been a lot of recent "Power Armor Space Warriors" in the last year that look a LOT like Iron Man while still being obvious stand-ins for space marines - Mantic's Peacekeepers, Puppetswar armored guys, The new KS from Titanforge - probably lots others those three came to mind.

So its really amusing to think that GW would ever think to themselves... we need to make these guys look more like a character from a top grosssing movie franchise, a style that has been copied multiple times in our own field and that should make our Ip somehow MORE protectable and we can shut down all these little upstart miniatures companies....

I don't think they would be that dense *he said optimistically* I imagine it's just a way to try and tap into that sweet sweet Marvel money-pot.

Should this prove true, I suspect Mk IX power armour will be received with much the same warm appreciation that greeted theCenturions and the Dreadknight.

Could it be possible that some of those black and white sketches posted a while ago that everybody thought could be Ad-Mech or Arbites actually have been new Space Marines?

Can't find the pics to take another look but I do remember one of them having an "Iron Man" helmet but it had a big Cog Mechanicus symbol as a back piece.

If a new power armor model and bits doesn't invalidate older kits, how could more bits/options be viewed as anything but customer friendly? Anyone who thinks GW will wipe out their entire existing SM line in favor of all new looks is thinking a little too fast.

 Lord of Misrule wrote:
Should this prove true, I suspect Mk IX power armour will be received with much the same warm appreciation that greeted theCenturions and the Dreadknight.

Burning scathing hatred from the Internet, then begrudging love because they are competitive, and people need to pretend to love them to justify buying them?

Edit: forgot to add that because the new space marines are likely to be bigger, there will be less figures in a box but the box will either sell for the same price or be more expensive.

Protect the IP, copy Iron Man's armor...

Makes sense

Could be he saw a FW Ultramarines 30k helmet?

Funny thing to me is, 30k is growing in popularity (people building marines of yesterday) but you're going to make something newer and different?

Personally, I like the Mk4-6 armor the most.

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Lord of Misrule wrote:
Should this prove true, I suspect Mk IX power armour will be received with much the same warm appreciation that greeted theCenturions and the Dreadknight.

Burning scathing hatred from the Internet, then begrudging love because they are competitive, and people need to pretend to love them to justify buying them?

You forgot the "someone on the internet making up banal derogatory nicknames" step.

IF it is a 'next step' in armor design and still echoes MKVIII, and is on a 32mm base and is 'bigger/taller/truescale'?

I'm in!

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Lord of Misrule wrote:
Should this prove true, I suspect Mk IX power armour will be received with much the same warm appreciation that greeted theCenturions and the Dreadknight.

Burning scathing hatred from the Internet, then begrudging love because they are competitive, and people need to pretend to love them to justify buying them?

Do people do that? I've never heard a good word about either except from Redshirts trying to sell me boxes of them of them.

Gravturians are OP

 His Master's Voice wrote:
You people do realize that Iron Man's suit is as generic as they get?

That could be, in large part, because Iron Man has been around for 50+ years and probably been ripped off numerous times?

Of course, "man in suit of metal armour" is a concept that's existed for literally hundreds of years, but calling Iron Man generic because there are similar things in existence may be slightly bass ackwards.

The Fantasy rumours I can sort of believe because Fantasy isn't exactly in the best of shape.

GW giving it's most recognizable IP a face lift is a bit hard to swallow, I'll need some visual confirmation before I can believe this.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:
You people do realize that Iron Man's suit is as generic as they get?

That could be, in large part, because Iron Man has been around for 50+ years and probably been ripped off numerous times?

Of course, "man in suit of metal armour" is a concept that's existed for literally hundreds of years, but calling Iron Man generic because there are similar things in existence may be slightly bass ackwards.

Mr. Stark?

The estate of Mr. Ned Kelly would like to talk to you about IP infringement....


The Auld Grump

 Crimson wrote:

As for new designs, I always liked this concept, especially the shoulderpads and the asymmetrical leg armour.

Problem is, the shoulders-with-enormous-screws-in, nipple-valves and form-fitting-Tony-Stark-leg-armour look is possibly even more generic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paradigm wrote:
I want it to be sleek. I want it to have nice hard edges and a sharper look....


And then I want Mantic to sue the crap out of them when it looks like this!

Spoiler:

His Master's Voice wrote:You people do realize that Iron Man's suit is as generic as they get? And the only things that could be conceivably fought over is the colour scheme and possibly the glowy central part?

Everything else has been used over and over and over in so many different iterations you could not possibly count them all. The goddamn Space Marine shoulder pad has more stake to being a distinct piece of protectable IP than the whole IM armour combined.

Cryptek of Awesome wrote:I think it's funny because making your power armor look like Iron Man will in no way make your IP any stronger. In fact there have been a lot of recent "Power Armor Space Warriors" in the last year that look a LOT like Iron Man while still being obvious stand-ins for space marines - Mantic's Peacekeepers, Puppetswar armored guys, The new KS from Titanforge - probably lots others those three came to mind.

Aye, that!

Any one remember those Jess Goodwin sketches we all assumed were the centurions?

 Azreal13 wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:
You people do realize that Iron Man's suit is as generic as they get?

That could be, in large part, because Iron Man has been around for 50+ years and probably been ripped off numerous times?

Well, to be fair, it started off looking like this:



... which looked like the Tin Woodsman from Oz got himself a new pair of wellies. Then for a long time it existed as minor variations of a red (muscle) cuirass with gold tights:



I'm not sure, but I think that outside the first two versions and the hulkbuster suit, the red'n'gold suit only started to look like an actual articulated, exoskeletal suit of powered armour about the time of the first movie and it's design, or the Ultimate universe version. Whichever came first.

Warhams-77 wrote:
It started with Duffybear posting hints on Warseer. Harry contributed as well. Today the puzzle was solved. Duffybear was spot on with the Harlequin Troupe sprue and Harry should be well known for excellent rumors already. Duffybear's riddles hint towards a 'Blue Marine'-release so the new armour type, Mark IX, should be available for most SM chapters.

This makes sense. Rumors of a 40k end-of-times = new books, new models, etc. The success of WFB EoT combined with a smaller skirmish next edition will be replicated in 40k especially now that this edition is almost finished. There is no better way to sell more models than to introduce new models. And satisfy IP desires, cost desires (can change prices i.e. decrease them), competitive desires (game-in-box i.e. smaller format), etc.

This edition is almost finished? I thought we just got a new edition about 6 months ago?

Sheck2 wrote:

Warhams-77 wrote:
It started with Duffybear posting hints on Warseer. Harry contributed as well. Today the puzzle was solved. Duffybear was spot on with the Harlequin Troupe sprue and Harry should be well known for excellent rumors already. Duffybear's riddles hint towards a 'Blue Marine'-release so the new armour type, Mark IX, should be available for most SM chapters.

This makes sense. Rumors of a 40k end-of-times = new books, new models, etc. The success of WFB EoT combined with a smaller skirmish next edition will be replicated in 40k especially now that this edition is almost finished. There is no better way to sell more models than to introduce new models. And satisfy IP desires, cost desires (can change prices i.e. decrease them), competitive desires (game-in-box i.e. smaller format), etc.

To be fair, I only saw duffybear comment on the new armor mark. I didn't see any comments from him about any of the kind of stuff you're talking about here. That may or may not be in play, depending on whether you think a new mark is enough to make you go "mental" and create a "gakstorm."

There certainly could be more coming with this, but no one seems to be saying that. If there is more to come, I don't think it's going to be 40K EOT. I think it'll be something else that happens within the current setting.

I don't buy it. They just printed a new tactical squad and a new BA squad, why would they invalidate them and release yet another infantry set that would gobble up their new squads' sales.

Now an updated assault squad, that I would love to see.

 Azreal13 wrote:
That could be, in large part, because Iron Man has been around for 50+ years and probably been ripped off numerous times?

As already shown in this thread. IM's current suit retained the glowy bit and colour scheme from it's 50 years of comic book publication. The previous variants were at best tube armour, at worst a generic spandex superhero no 2 painted red and yellow.

 gorgon wrote:

Sheck2 wrote:

Warhams-77 wrote:
It started with Duffybear posting hints on Warseer. Harry contributed as well. Today the puzzle was solved. Duffybear was spot on with the Harlequin Troupe sprue and Harry should be well known for excellent rumors already. Duffybear's riddles hint towards a 'Blue Marine'-release so the new armour type, Mark IX, should be available for most SM chapters.

This makes sense. Rumors of a 40k end-of-times = new books, new models, etc. The success of WFB EoT combined with a smaller skirmish next edition will be replicated in 40k especially now that this edition is almost finished. There is no better way to sell more models than to introduce new models. And satisfy IP desires, cost desires (can change prices i.e. decrease them), competitive desires (game-in-box i.e. smaller format), etc.

To be fair, I only saw duffybear comment on the new armor mark. I didn't see any comments from him about any of the kind of stuff you're talking about here. That may or may not be in play, depending on whether you think a new mark is enough to make you go "mental" and create a "sh*tstorm."

There certainly could be more coming with this, but no one seems to be saying that. If there is more to come, I don't think it's going to be 40K EOT. I think it'll be something else that happens within the current setting.

I concur.

One has to look at the motives behind WHFB ET, and they're almost certainly not creative, but an attempt to shake up a stagnating product line and hopefully generate sales.

While GW in general may be on the way down from the peak of the curve, 40K definitely seems to be the most reliable of their product lines, and a risk like ET for what seems to be a fundamentally risk averse organisation like GW seems highly unlikely.

Of course, the reverse thinking would be that, assuming ET has had a positive financial impact, GW now assume that similar actions would have a similar effect. Of course, because they don't make any effort to find out what their customers actually think, the reasons ET has worked for Fantasy will not necessarily translate to 40K.

If ET 40K happens, the shark will well and truly have been jumped IMO, but if it brings some cool models, it will keep them ticking over for another year or two.

Hmm. Duffybear has only predicted one thing previously. I guess we'll see.

Something about all of this just doesn't seem right, like we're missing some piece of the puzzle that would make it all clear. Space Marines are GW's most iconic image, and changing that up changes the brand recognition. But then, is GW really concerned about the long-term value of their brand, or are they still just trying to keep it steady hoping for a buyout?

Man, this is like that old rumour of the Tau 'Organic Battlesuit'. *awaits for that one to pop up again*

To be perfectly honest, what they're doing to WFB looks quite a lot like an attempt at building a more marketable IP. Marketable for potential takeover that is.

It doesn't necessarily stop it from being at attempt at refreshing an ailing system, but two birds, one stone etc.

So yeah, if your iconic visual design has been mauled in court, you might want to ironclad it to safeguard your own future. Or you might want to ironclad it because strong IP's one can protect from infringement sell well. Or you might want to do both and see which way the wind blows.

Harry has attached his name to it, we need to take it seriously as a rumour, the only thing still up for grabs is exactly what this kit may ultimately represent, I wouldn't doubt for a minute it exists.

For instance, I think Harry saw what ultimately launched as Glotkin, but reported it as a new plastic GUO.

So there's that sort of misidentification possible (that is assuming that there isn't also a plastic GUO in the works as well!)

I dunno. Harry's comments are pretty vague.

iron man style ...so this without the servo harness then ? I bet it will be a wargear upgrade or a new unit type of experimental armour with some kind of shield save and advanced weapons.

If it is a new suit of armor to go along with the Mk. 7 Aquila pattern I would be all for it. As a complete replacement... Ill withhold my judgement for now.

 pretre wrote:
I dunno. Harry's comments are pretty vague.

I read them originally as an endorsement of duffybear's, but yes, on rereading them I guess there's room for interpretation, but I still find that the most logical.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Something about all of this just doesn't seem right, like we're missing some piece of the puzzle that would make it all clear. Space Marines are GW's most iconic image, and changing that up changes the brand recognition. But then, is GW really concerned about the long-term value of their brand, or are they still just trying to keep it steady hoping for a buyout?

Well, you'd think that there would be some kind of game context for the new miniatures, and not just new boxes on the shelves. I don't know if that's a new SM codex, some kind of supplement, or what. Early on in that Warseer thread, people were guessing things like primarchs returning. That probably doesn't make sense, just given that FW is (appropriately) taking their sweet time getting through the HH versions, especially the loyalists. But I guess there could be some kind of event (probably not to that scale) in the fluff that spawns something for the game that pushes the new minis.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 pretre wrote:
I dunno. Harry's comments are pretty vague.

I read them originally as an endorsement of duffybear's, but yes, on rereading them I guess there's room for interpretation, but I still find that the most logical.

It's *possible* that they're addressing different items too. There sure is a lot of uncertainty with this one. I'm guessing we won't know what's really up until May.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Any one remember those Jess Goodwin sketches we all assumed were the centurions?

The one where marines are dual weilding lascannons and assault cannons?

Anyone ahve a copy handy?

Space Marines are GW's best selling product by far, so messing with them is incredibly risky.

Could it be that what people are reporting as new type of marine armour would actually be a plastic honour guard kit, and this new armour is in fact artificer armour?

 Paradigm wrote:
I want it to be sleek. I want it to have nice hard edges and a sharper look....


And then I want Mantic to sue the crap out of them when it looks like this!




In all seriousness, I don't like the idea of a new armour mark that looks radically different from the previous Mks, all of which share very similar design features. Plastic Mk8 could have been cool, but Mk9? Why?

No no no no no no no no no no no and many other nos

Of course, aesthetic preference is subjective, but doesn't that style of armour (and the picture of the Damocles pattern on the first page) just look so boringly generic? Every third party and their mothers are producing minis with hard edges and a sharp look. Looking like Iron Man is the worst possible design choice they could make- not because Iron Man is bad, but because everything looks like Iron Man these days!

 God In Action wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
I want it to be sleek. I want it to have nice hard edges and a sharper look....


And then I want Mantic to sue the crap out of them when it looks like this!




In all seriousness, I don't like the idea of a new armour mark that looks radically different from the previous Mks, all of which share very similar design features. Plastic Mk8 could have been cool, but Mk9? Why?

No no no no no no no no no no no and many other nos

Of course, aesthetic preference is subjective, but doesn't that style of armour (and the picture of the Damocles pattern on the first page) just look so boringly generic? Every third party and their mothers are producing minis with hard edges and a sharp look. Looking like Iron Man is the worst possible design choice they could make- not because Iron Man is bad, but because everything looks like Iron Man these days!

To clarify, I do not actually want Space Marines that look like that. Their design is too iconic, fits the 40k style perfectly, and whatever replacement GW supposedly has in the works will have to be bloody good to replace good ol' MkVII plate. That post was purely a joke.

That said, in its context, I do love Enforcer armour. It's not Space Marine, and it's not trying to be, but I do like that hard-edged and sharp look. Mantic's Deadzone setting is very hard sci-fi with a hint of an anime influence (like Infinity), and in that context, the armour looks fine. If anything, I'd say it's more Halo than Iron Man, but that is no bad thing.

Makes me wonder, if this is true, if Jes is behind the new armour pattern design as well.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Any one remember those Jess Goodwin sketches we all assumed were the centurions?

The one where marines are dual weilding lascannons and assault cannons?

Anyone ahve a copy handy?

Yes those ones.

Interesting plausible yet unlikely rumor. Subscribed. With the almost unrecognizable mess largely devoid of balance and fun that 40k has become over the past two editions for myself and those I know that (used to) play, I wouldn't put anything out of reach for GW.

Still think that this sounds very Dornian Heresy misunderstanding.

Do we even have room for another armor between PA, Artificer, and TDA?

 Lobukia wrote:
Still think that this sounds very Dornian Heresy misunderstanding.

Do we even have room for another armor between PA, Artificer, and TDA?

Maybe this is going to be like Apple, and we'll get mini-Terminator armor and then the biggest Power Armor made to date!

I wonder if the new armour mark leaves forgeworld to do the mk8 in the next ia book?

BREAKING NEWS: Global economy threatened by acute, inexplicable worldwide shortage in salt!!!!!

Other food for thought:

Would GW look at the Horus Heresy success (presumable given the large number of items) and think that there is now room for a modern Space Marine to serve as a counterpart to the 30k Space Marine?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
"GW wants to protect its IP"

"looks like Iron Man's armour"

Stopped reading.

You caught that too 'ay? Yeah. Pretty funny stuff.

I don't know if its related but in the CHS suit, it played a strong part of CHS' defense that significant portions of a GW Space Marine's aesthetics are derived from historical sources. Just like how their misconception of the law convinced them changing the Imperial Guard to Astra Millitarum shields them from third party's fair use, they probably think making space marines that look less knightly will some how shield them from that legal argument but ignoring the fact that armor is an ergonomic form largely derived from the shape of the human body and that simple geometry can be legally reproduced for the sake of compatibility.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Am I the only one thinking this?



Honestly, if Harry hadn't attached his name to it, I'd just assume someone had tripped over this on Google images and made up a story to fit.

We wish it was that.

This still sounds really weird. The last time GW made new armour for the Marines we ended up with... well... y'know.

It's not the steam punk marines dual/ fantasy kit, is it?

Still holding out hope that this just means they are updated the ASM and Devestators kits, maybe even the scouts as well.

The current Tacs and Veterans kits are awesome. No need to replace so soon.

Link to the Dev concept sketches
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/544835.page

Something went very wrong between those sketches and the final models, assuming they were proto-centurions.

Azreal13 wrote:Am I the only one thinking this?

Spoiler:

Honestly, if Harry hadn't attached his name to it, I'd just assume someone had tripped over this on Google images and made up a story to fit.

No. First thing I thought of as well (and said as much on the first page).

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Link to the Dev concept sketches
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/544835.page

Thanks for that link. I would have loved for those to have been realized and, in part, the centurions were a disappointment because I'd set my expectations to match that concept work.

If this rumor of new MkIX armor pans out, I don't believe it'll replace any of the existing marks. GW would have to redo the entire space marine line of products.

I wouldn't put it past GW to think that changing marines is a good idea. It is lunacy, but lunacy that actually fits with a spate of decisions over the past year or so.

And Mythos, don't forget Nausmith's long testimony about the historically derived nature of the Space Marine. That said, although the CHS case surely spooked GW, it actually supported the iconic Space Marine as strong, protectible IP.

However, GW might have the U.S. Copyright Office's refusal to register a Space Marine shoulder pad in mind.

I expect that if this rumor is true, and I share doubts, GW will release a new kit that can be used AS a Tac Marine that has an aesthetic crossed between some of the popular 30K stuff and GW's more modern sci fi competitors. I suspect it would be taller, a tad slimmer, but with the same iconic elements, including the shoulder pads, but with a shed load more mechanical looking detail on the rims and visible underside.

Unless GW is truly looking to restart 40K from scatch, which would be a Hail Mary, I don't think GW will invalidate extant marine miniatures, but rather encourage customers to convert over their collections to the new hotness. After all, it is perfectly acceptable to have different versions of armor amongst your marines.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Link to the Dev concept sketches
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/544835.page

That is a very depressing link but thanks. I'm sorry those concepts turned into the centurions we have today. :(

Looked at the title of this thread, and just dropped in here to ask and perhaps point something out.

Has the background of 40k changed recently? If not, doesn't a mark IX armour automatically imply a moving forward of the timeline? It always used to be that the Mk7/8 was the most recent development.

 Pacific wrote:
Looked at the title of this thread, and just dropped in here to ask and perhaps point something out.

Has the background of 40k changed recently? If not, doesn't a mark IX armour automatically imply a moving forward of the timeline? It always used to be that the Mk7/8 was the most recent development.

Considering what they're doing with Fantasy, it's not out of the question now for them to advance the storyline in 40k as well since Archaon's efforts in fantasy were pretty much the direct analogue of Abaddon's. Nothing is "automatic" but it's possible.

OK so realisitically we're bring told there's a new mark of marine armor coming and it will cause a @#$% storm.

So... possibilities:

1 - A new unit for marines a-la the centurions
2 - A complete re-do of all marines with a new armor design (highly unlikely since it would require redoing a dozen or more kits across 5 chapters)
3 - A purely aestetic change (how would that cause a @#$% storm?)
4 - A fluff change, advancing the time line, stuff actually happening (hopefully not as terri-bad as End Times)

My prediction is a combination of 1 and 4, with chapters decimated and the few survivors breaking out their Extra Cool Awesome Armor from the Forbidden Vault.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Link to the Dev concept sketches
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/544835.page

Wow. Those are awesome. I love the techmarine vibe you get from them. So much better then gakky centurions we ended up with.

Jes Goodwin really is the master of marines.

I saved those concept sketches to the gallery in case they go missing.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-518-45504_Space%20Marine%20Concepts%20%28games%20Day%202004%29.html

Good thinking K_K.


Is that Dorian Heresy armour from any "offical" source or was it just fan art that gained a following?

 Snrub wrote:
Good thinking K_K.


Is that Dorian Heresy armour from any "offical" source or was it just fan art that gained a following?

Work by a group of people on B&C on a what-if scenario where Dorn fell instead of Horus. So not official, but a great read IMO.

Link to PDF

They could end up re-introducing a chapter that was supposedly lost.

If I had to bet though.. they're going to re-release Space Marines as true scale. That would really screw all the proxies over.

EDIT: That would screw all the marine proxies that aren't Hi-Tech's ridiculously oversized marines over..

I think tru-scale kits are really unlikely. For as cool as they'd be, it would instantly mess with the rest of the Marine range in a big way. Tru-scale marines are terminator sized. That would mean they'd have to tru-scale every other marine model which would end up just getting ludicrous.

I would like to see a well done tru-scaled dreadnought though. A proper 6 metre behemoth.

I agree with you.. but they've claimed this will really stir things up.. so yeah.. I mean.. that would REALLY stir things up.
I also think they've been desperately searching for a way to stick it to all those companies doing proxies... and nothing would do that better than completely invalidating entire ranges by those companies.

Does it make sense? Maybe maybe not.. but remember.. these guys made it harder for stores to sell their stuff, have tried to copyright generic tropes, spent a LOT (millions or something?) on a horrible webstore, don't think 3d printing poses any sort of real competition, send out C&D letters to people who are actually promoting GW's products, and on a major anniversary elected to destroy one of their most iconic buildings.
I could go on but my point is that logic and GW and budgets.. these are not things that belong together.
Also.. when has GW not jumped at the opportunity to make moar Spesh Muhreens???

 MLaw wrote:
I also think they've been desperately searching for a way to stick it to all those companies doing proxies... and nothing would do that better than completely invalidating entire ranges by those companies.

Except it doesn't invalidate anything because they have to keep the current model range in production. There's no way GW can afford to redo their entire space marine line, and the obscene cost of doing so would far outweigh any losses they suffer from third-party variant kits. Plus, it's not like any "victory" would be a permanent one. GW would spend massive amounts of time and money to redo all of their marines, and then the third-party companies would spend less time and money redoing their own product lines to match.

don't think 3d printing poses any sort of real competition

It doesn't, at least for the foreseeable future.

and on a major anniversary elected to destroy one of their most iconic buildings.

Which building is this exactly?

Ah, you know what.. the article I read on that was wording it in a way to get clicks.. reading further from a DIFFERENT source.. GW didn't schedule the demolition.. and it's close to the 40th anniversary of that store opening not on it. It's also no longer a GW store. That's what I get from just reading summaries.
http://theimperialpatrol.blogspot.com/2015/02/the-first-gw-store-set-to-be-demolished.html

EDIT:
On all the rest of that.. of course you're right.. I'll take my silly suspicions and enjoy my drink with my wife and stop getting into silly debates over what may or may not be Cheers

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
OK so realisitically we're bring told there's a new mark of marine armor coming and it will cause a @#$% storm.

So... possibilities:

1 - A new unit for marines a-la the centurions
2 - A complete re-do of all marines with a new armor design (highly unlikely since it would require redoing a dozen or more kits across 5 chapters)
3 - A purely aestetic change (how would that cause a @#$% storm?)
4 - A fluff change, advancing the time line, stuff actually happening (hopefully not as terri-bad as End Times)

My prediction is a combination of 1 and 4, with chapters decimated and the few survivors breaking out their Extra Cool Awesome Armor from the Forbidden Vault.

It really is hard to say. A new Space Marine armor mark alone wouldn't cause a massive ****storm. After all, this thread is only at four pages right now. Something truly worthy of a ****storm would have made this thread 8+ pages by now. So, there's got to be something more. If it were just a new unit, well, what unit could it be? If the Centurions are basically Devastators 2.0, then could this new one by Assault Marines 2.0? Veterans 2.0? And if it is a 40K End Times, how would that explain a random new marine armor, anyway? It still feels like we're missing something that would explain all of this.

I'd really, really be surprised if GW introduced a new Mark of Power Armor that wasn't backwards compatible with the current range (and so, not "True Scale" or something like that).

For all of their insanely boneheaded moves in the last few years, GW has consistently maintained a strong emphasis on kitbashing with marines (and, to a lesser extent, a lot of other models--see the nicely compatible harlequin masks in the new releases). GW actively promotes the compatibility of various marine kits, and features prominently in their own publications the kitbashing of marine models by their own staff and external hobbyists.

Even in areas where GW has (IMHO) faltered on kit compatibility (lots of the character models), they have still retained a good degree of compatibility, just not with the ease of multipose plastics (you can still kitbash, but you will need to do more cutting or clipping).

I think it would be a rather drastic (and really, really stupid) step. It would also undercut a lot of the sales that they currently have (such as FW shoulderpads, their own Finecast shoulderpads, etc).

Then again, if you told me GW was going to sink Ulthuan and destroy Lustria, I would have told you to pull the other one--it has bells on it.

If they want to remake some groovy new MEQ kits that net them some nice safe IPness how about they make some new Chaos Space Marine Boxes with the old school asthetic to them?

I don't play CSM and I think that would be more worthy.

DrRansom wrote:
Other food for thought:

Would GW look at the Horus Heresy success (presumable given the large number of items) and think that there is now room for a modern Space Marine to serve as a counterpart to the 30k Space Marine?

There already is a moder SM counterpart. MkVII and MkVIII are the 'Modern' SM armour. MkVII was as early as the siege of Terra but it's the one that's used 'now'.

Potentially they could release these as 'true scale' marines. Hence the change to 32mm bases as well.

Changing the scale of marines would have more impact on the game/hobby than simply introducing new marks of wargear. Compatibility between existing Space Marine kits including Forgeworld kits would be gone or, at the very least, flimsy.

Operating at a new scale would mean not just the introduction of mark IX armor variants either as stand-alone kits for building entire squads or an additional spruce/bits to existing and future boxes, it would mean the entirety of Space Marine would need to be redone in this new scale. Assuming GW would want to keep things uniform and would not be content to have big marines next to little marines.

I don't even know how many boxes of stuff they'd have to throw out and scratch build. So I'm definitely in the camp that believes this will not be the case, no scale change, I mean.

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Lord of Misrule wrote:
Should this prove true, I suspect Mk IX power armour will be received with much the same warm appreciation that greeted theCenturions and the Dreadknight.

Burning scathing hatred from the Internet, then begrudging love because they are competitive, and people need to pretend to love them to justify buying them?

Not a marines player myself, but don't the numbers say that a devastator squad offers better value per points than spacemarines-inside-spacemarines?

Perhaps GW realized that with the veterans released with the latest codex, and the BA done, they dont really have any more infantry kits to release for Marines.
To prevent stagnation of their best selling and iconic product, the simply make them larger and start over.

Makes some kind of sense from a bussiness perspective I guess.
I dont see how new PA would have any major impact on the rules if they didnt overhaul the whole armour rules, I mean what could they improve it with? Fleet? Eldarian battlefocus? AP2?

(I know there is lots of PA kits left to do for CSM, but we all know they dont count in GWs eyes.)

IMO
I could see a Codex: Mechanicum.
It having units of artificer marines in this new armour.
We have a had rumours and with forge worlds successes I don't see why not.

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Lord of Misrule wrote:
Should this prove true, I suspect Mk IX power armour will be received with much the same warm appreciation that greeted theCenturions and the Dreadknight.

Burning scathing hatred from the Internet, then begrudging love because they are competitive, and people need to pretend to love them to justify buying them?

Speak for yourelf. The Dreadknight is the first (and still only non-FW) Space Marine "walker" that looks like it can actually walk. The washing-machines-on-stump-legs still couldn't physically walk after all these years, because it would be impossible for them to get their body's centre of gravity over one of their legs in order to actually lift the other one off the ground. Old-school dreads was an ok design given the limitations of 1980s metal miniatures, but it should've been retired two decades ago.

The day the entire Space Marine range drops the old fugly Dreads and goes with the Dreadknight-design is the day the miniature range improves by about 500000000000000000000000000000000%.

And while the cynical wargaming crowd likes to take up every excuse to mock "Space Marines inside Space Marines", Marvel Studios just did the exact same thing by making the Hulk Buster an "Iron Man inside an Iron Man" and the concepts flies well enough in a broader crowd of non-hate-everything-just-because-haters.

When people talk about scale change, I think most are imagining a huge shift. This seems unlikely. However, marines have already gotten bigger over the years. 2nd ed. metals and single-pose plastics were bigger than the RT beakies, and the multi-part plastic marines were bigger than the 2nd ed. ones. In both cases the size increase was couple of millimetres, and didn't really render the old models obsolete, so if there is a size increase, it would most likely to be similar one.

 MLaw wrote:
I agree with you.. but they've claimed this will really stir things up.. so yeah.. I mean.. that would REALLY stir things up.
I also think they've been desperately searching for a way to stick it to all those companies doing proxies... and nothing would do that better than completely invalidating entire ranges by those companies.

It would actually be a godsend to those companies. Assuming that it didn't cause GW to implode, people buying stuff means people buying accessories for that stuff. I said as much about the base size change. Stick it to the people doing custom bases? No, you just gave them a reason to party!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
When people talk about scale change, I think most are imagining a huge shift. This seems unlikely. However, marines have already gotten bigger over the years. 2nd ed. metals and single-pose plastics were bigger than the RT beakies, and the multi-part plastic marines were bigger than the 2nd ed. ones. In both cases the size increase was couple of millimetres, and didn't really render the old models obsolete, so if there is a size increase, it would most likely to be similar one.

Exactly. And GW can 'explain it' with it being a new MK of armor that is a wee bit bigger. And they can design it to be compatible with the same shoulder pads.

Zwan1One wrote:
Potentially they could release these as 'true scale' marines. Hence the change to 32mm bases as well.

Except GW believes Marines are true scale. As Jes Goodwin states, it's the other sculptors that have the scale wrong.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Zwan1One wrote:
Potentially they could release these as 'true scale' marines. Hence the change to 32mm bases as well.

Except GW believes Marines are true scale. As Jes Goodwin states, it's the other sculptors that have the scale wrong.

Which honestly is close to being right. Stand a SM next to an Elder, DE, Tau or Necon model and it scales fine, it's just next to an ape-proportioned Guardsmen and it looks off. On the other hand, take a true-28 (not true-32) human next to a Marine, and it looks fine.

 Paradigm wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Zwan1One wrote:
Potentially they could release these as 'true scale' marines. Hence the change to 32mm bases as well.

Except GW believes Marines are true scale. As Jes Goodwin states, it's the other sculptors that have the scale wrong.

Which honestly is close to being right. Stand a SM next to an Elder, DE, Tau or Necon model and it scales fine, it's just next to an ape-proportioned Guardsmen and it looks off. On the other hand, take a true-28 (not true-32) human next to a Marine, and it looks fine.

I totally agree, Paradigm. I am/was happy with the scale(bar plastic Guard).

Wonderwolf wrote:

And while the cynical wargaming crowd likes to take up every excuse to mock "Space Marines inside Space Marines", Marvel Studios just did the exact same thing by making the Hulk Buster an "Iron Man inside an Iron Man" and the concepts flies well enough in a broader crowd of non-hate-everything-just-because-haters.

Well, if Tony Stark was just strapped to the front of the Hulkbuster armour like he was caught in some bizarre, shiny baby carrier, it might not go over as well.

Because the concept has to fly in a broader crowd of non-gobble-down-any-old-rubbish-the-company-unveils-just-because-fanboys.

 Vermis wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:

And while the cynical wargaming crowd likes to take up every excuse to mock "Space Marines inside Space Marines", Marvel Studios just did the exact same thing by making the Hulk Buster an "Iron Man inside an Iron Man" and the concepts flies well enough in a broader crowd of non-hate-everything-just-because-haters.

Well, if Tony Stark was just strapped to the front of the Hulkbuster armour like he was caught in some bizarre, shiny baby carrier, it might not go over as well.

I don't know, the general public loves the power loader from Aliens despite the fact that it matches the harness on the Dreadknight EXACTLY.

 Platuan4th wrote:
I don't know, the general public loves the power loader from Aliens despite the fact that it matches the harness on the Dreadknight EXACTLY.

If by "EXACTLY" you mean "NOT ACTUALLY EXACTLY", you'd be right.

 Platuan4th wrote:
I don't know, the general public loves the power loader from Aliens despite the fact that it matches the harness on the Dreadknight EXACTLY.

The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Vermis wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:

And while the cynical wargaming crowd likes to take up every excuse to mock "Space Marines inside Space Marines", Marvel Studios just did the exact same thing by making the Hulk Buster an "Iron Man inside an Iron Man" and the concepts flies well enough in a broader crowd of non-hate-everything-just-because-haters.

Well, if Tony Stark was just strapped to the front of the Hulkbuster armour like he was caught in some bizarre, shiny baby carrier, it might not go over as well.

I don't know, the general public loves the power loader from Aliens despite the fact that it matches the harness on the Dreadknight EXACTLY.

Really? I must have missed the part where Ripley dons the power armor that makes her a 8ft tall walking tank BEFORE she straps into the front of yet another suit of an even larger powered armor that is designed strictly for combat and is bristling with ranged weapons. The act of simply strapping in somewhere to the front or back of a robot (depending on which of the pair of fan "favorite" dreadknight or centurion you're talking about) isn't what people have a problem with but rather the style in which it was done along with the ridiculous Russian nesting doll idea. Just like with the 40k rules, the bad execution of a good idea is turning into a GW hallmark.

 warboss wrote:
Just like with the 40k rules, the bad execution of a good idea is turning into a GW hallmark.

Aint that the sad truth? That's the reason why i am very sceptical that rumored 9th fantasy will be any good. Or basically, whatever GW puts their mind to. The campaign sets are nice in theory, I guess, but no way I am shelling out 100€ just to get a unique Warboss model that can be easily converted from the AOBR one.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
I don't know, the general public loves the power loader from Aliens despite the fact that it matches the harness on the Dreadknight EXACTLY.

If by "EXACTLY" you mean "NOT ACTUALLY EXACTLY", you'd be right.

Take a closer look at the actual Dreadknight model then look at pictures of the Power Loader. The Dreadknight harness section is a near direct copy, complete with the same foot stirrups and handle design.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
I don't know, the general public loves the power loader from Aliens despite the fact that it matches the harness on the Dreadknight EXACTLY.

The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation.

Exalt.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
I don't know, the general public loves the power loader from Aliens despite the fact that it matches the harness on the Dreadknight EXACTLY.

The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation.

Bwahaha, consider that exalted!

 Vermis wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
I don't know, the general public loves the power loader from Aliens despite the fact that it matches the harness on the Dreadknight EXACTLY.

The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation.

Exalt.

Exactly.

The Auld Grump

 Vermis wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:

And while the cynical wargaming crowd likes to take up every excuse to mock "Space Marines inside Space Marines", Marvel Studios just did the exact same thing by making the Hulk Buster an "Iron Man inside an Iron Man" and the concepts flies well enough in a broader crowd of non-hate-everything-just-because-haters.

Well, if Tony Stark was just strapped to the front of the Hulkbuster armour like he was caught in some bizarre, shiny baby carrier, it might not go over as well.

Because the concept has to fly in a broader crowd of non-gobble-down-any-old-rubbish-the-company-unveils-just-because-fanboys.

I think you read too much into it. If Hulkbuster looks cool, people will like it, regardless of whether it makes sense or not. Personally, I'm a fan Can't wait for next Avengers.

I think anyone that buys GW models is a fanboy/girl, now, LOL. Same goes for PP -- By definition, anyone who would pay $10+ for a single plastic inch-tall toy soldier is a fan of some kind, right? Or, for that matter, $30-$60 rulebooks when there are a dozen plus.

One thing is for sure, and that's the first people will know of anything is a blurred camera-phone photo of a half rolled-up magazine, taken in a Polish toilet

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
I don't know, the general public loves the power loader from Aliens despite the fact that it matches the harness on the Dreadknight EXACTLY.

The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation.

I will be surprised if I read a funnier post in 2015.

I knew people would bring up the power loader. Should've mentioned it myself, really. But then Alex did the job, and brilliantly so.

Talys wrote:

I think you read too much into it. If Hulkbuster looks cool, people will like it, regardless of whether it makes sense or not.

Well, that's kinda-sorta the point. Hulkbuster might not make sense, but looks cool. It basically turns Iron Man into something that at least looks like it could go toe-to-toe with the Hulk. Dreadknight might not make sense, but it looks... ridiculous. It's like whoever at GW took the Aliens power loader, with a smidge of penitent engine, and thought "let's make it four times as big with a big sword and a space marine out in front and all shiny and badass and kewl, everyone'll buy it" and no inkling of context ever flitted past their minds.

If they had a suit of armour like the hulkbuster that actually enclosed the space marine, even in his own 'everyday' suit, it'd... well, no, they tried that with centurions, didn't they? That was more flawed in the execution, maybe. It wouldn't have looked so wrong if everything wasn't so Tonka-toy chunky. As for the concept, they already had terminators as heavy shock troops, right? Same way as they already had guys strapped into big robots...?

Somewhat back on topic, but but still with an eye on Iron Man, especially his old gold-tights look: at the other end of the scale I'm not so sure about figure-hugging powered armour by definition. It's not just bits of armour strapped on: it's a self-supporting robotic frame that responds to the wearer's movements. All the power cables and sensors and processers and servos and things have to go somewhere, and then be covered and protected by armour. Maybe I'm overestimating just how chunky it has to be, but I always think of that bit of Starship Troopers (the book):

...Shucks, I could see the only man affected, half a mile away, and all I had was just a little bitty H.E. rocket, intended to make a lot of smoke and not much else. So I picked a spot by eye, took the rocket launcher and let fly.
Then I bounced away, feeling smug - no seconds lost.
And had my power cut in the air. This doesn't hurt you; it's a delayed action, executed by your landing. I grounded and there I stuck, squatting, held upright by gyros but unable to move. You do not repeat not move when surrounded by a ton of metal with your power dead.
Instead I cussed to myself - I hadn't thought that they would make me a casualty when I was supposed to be leading the problem. Shucks and other comments.
I should have known that Sergeant Zim would be monitoring the section leader.
He bounced over to me, spoke to me privately on the face-to-face. He suggested that I might be able to get a job sweeping floors since I was too stupid, clumsy and careless to handle dirty dishes. He discussed my past and probable future and several other things that I did not want to hear about. He ended by saying tonelessly, "How would you like to have Colonel Dubois see what you've done?"
Then he left me. I waited there, crouched over, for two hours until the drill was over. The suit, which had been feather-light, real seven-league boots, felt like an Iron Maiden. At last he returned for me, restored power, and we bounced together at top speed to BHQ.

I think anyone that buys GW models is a fanboy/girl, now, LOL. Same goes for PP -- By definition, anyone who would pay $10+ for a single plastic inch-tall toy soldier is a fan of some kind, right? Or, for that matter, $30-$60 rulebooks when there are a dozen plus.

Nah. I spent thirteen-bleedin-pounds-fitty on a single plastic skaven myself, a couple of weeks ago, though I consider that a blip. I think it's when you go out of your way to rant a defense, complete with strawmen, of one of the most universally derided minis of recent years, without much thought to why it's derided.

 Dentry wrote:

 Snrub wrote:
Good thinking K_K.


Is that Dorian Heresy armour from any "offical" source or was it just fan art that gained a following?

Work by a group of people on B&C on a what-if scenario where Dorn fell instead of Horus. So not official, but a great read IMO.

Link to PDF

Yeah, the Dornian Heresy is to good to be a product of GW.

 Crimson wrote:
When people talk about scale change, I think most are imagining a huge shift. This seems unlikely. However, marines have already gotten bigger over the years. 2nd ed. metals and single-pose plastics were bigger than the RT beakies, and the multi-part plastic marines were bigger than the 2nd ed. ones. In both cases the size increase was couple of millimetres, and didn't really render the old models obsolete, so if there is a size increase, it would most likely to be similar one.

This is actually along the lines of what I was thinking..
They haven't batted an eye at using the original sitting crew from the Landspeeder.. despite the change in size. I think the biker guys got over-hauled but I'm not sure on that (I don't follow it that closely).
Rhinos went from tiny to I dunno 1/3 bigger? (Never actually measured the change) and Land Raiders jumped from the old tall ones that looked like they could tip over to our giant shoebox now (not sure if there has been a plastic other than those two.. like an upgrade to the rhino or whatever). I dunno.. GW has demonstrated a complete lack of craps to be given in regards to scale so many times that I think for them they'd just lose sight of what's actually going on and assume they would be doing the world a favor by jumping the size up a mm or two. Who actually knows how their version of logic works? I don't understand why the battle cannon on Leman Russ has a large enough diameter to launch a freakin torpedo but it does.. and has.. Trying to superimpose logic onto the actions and decisions made by GW is like trying to ram a square peg through a round hole, it just doesn't work.

Cryptek of Awesome wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
"GW wants to protect its IP"

"looks like Iron Man's armour"

Stopped reading.

You caught that too 'ay? Yeah. Pretty funny stuff.

His Master's Voice wrote:You people do realize that Iron Man's suit is as generic as they get? And the only things that could be conceivably fought over is the colour scheme and possibly the glowy central part?

Everything else has been used over and over and over in so many different iterations you could not possibly count them all. The goddamn Space Marine shoulder pad has more stake to being a distinct piece of protectable IP than the whole IM armour combined.

I don't think it's funny because I actually expect them to get sued by disney. I think it's funny because making your power armor look like Iron Man will in no way make your IP any stronger. In fact there have been a lot of recent "Power Armor Space Warriors" in the last year that look a LOT like Iron Man while still being obvious stand-ins for space marines - Mantic's Peacekeepers, Puppetswar armored guys, The new KS from Titanforge - probably lots others those three came to mind.

So its really amusing to think that GW would ever think to themselves... we need to make these guys look more like a character from a top grosssing movie franchise, a style that has been copied multiple times in our own field and that should make our Ip somehow MORE protectable and we can shut down all these little upstart miniatures companies....

I don't think they would be that dense *he said optimistically* I imagine it's just a way to try and tap into that sweet sweet Marvel money-pot.

Don't forget that the last episode of Continuum had what looked an AWFUL LOT like Horus Heresy era SMs time-jumping into the city.

Space Marine styled powered armor is everywhere.

MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Vermis wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:

And while the cynical wargaming crowd likes to take up every excuse to mock "Space Marines inside Space Marines", Marvel Studios just did the exact same thing by making the Hulk Buster an "Iron Man inside an Iron Man" and the concepts flies well enough in a broader crowd of non-hate-everything-just-because-haters.

Well, if Tony Stark was just strapped to the front of the Hulkbuster armour like he was caught in some bizarre, shiny baby carrier, it might not go over as well.

I don't know, the general public loves the power loader from Aliens despite the fact that it matches the harness on the Dreadknight EXACTLY.

Really? I must have missed the part where Ripley dons the power armor that makes her a 8ft tall walking tank BEFORE she straps into the front of yet another suit of an even larger powered armor that is designed strictly for combat and is bristling with ranged weapons. The act of simply strapping in somewhere to the front or back of a robot (depending on which of the pair of fan "favorite" dreadknight or centurion you're talking about) isn't what people have a problem with but rather the style in which it was done along with the ridiculous Russian nesting doll idea. Just like with the 40k rules, the bad execution of a good idea is turning into a GW hallmark.

Have you seen Gurren Lagann, speaking of "Space Marines in Space Marines?"

You have Gurren and Lagann, both Gunman (or Gundai in the. Manga) who combine to form Gurren Lagann.

Then Gurren Lagann combines (climbs inside to pilot it, like Kamina and Simon in Gurren and Lagann respectively) with Dai Gurren to produce Dai-Gurren Lagann

Then Dai-Gurren Lagann combines (climbs inside to pilot it) with Arc-Gurren Gunman to produce Arc-Gunman Dai-Gurren Lagann.

Then Arc-Gunman Dai-Gurren Lagann combines with the Cathedral Terra Battleship of Lordgenome, to form Choginga Arc-Gunman Dai-Gurren Lagann.

And, finally, Simon feeds his own spiral energy back into Lagann, amplifying it to feed that spiral energy back through Gurren Lagann to amplify it, to send that spiral energy back through Dai-Gurren Lagann to amplify it, to Feedback that amplified spiral energy back through Arc-Gunman Dai-Gurren Lagann to amplify it again, to finally feedback the spiral energy through Choginga Arc-Gunman Dai-Gurren Lagann to produce the Ultimate form OF.....

Tenga Toppa Chogina Arc -Gunman Dai-Gurren Lagann

Which is the size of a small galaxy.

But then the whole premise of Gurren Lagann's creators is to "Turn eleven up to eleven" (a meta-Spinal Tap reference).

So.... Done right.... Space Marines in Space Marines could be pretty cool if they did it right.

MB

BeAfraid wrote:

Tenga Toppa Chogina Arc -Gunman Dai-Gurren Lagann

Which is the size of a small galaxy.

But then the whole premise of Gurren Lagann's creators is to "Turn eleven up to eleven" (a meta-Spinal Tap reference).

So.... Done right.... Space Marines in Space Marines could be pretty cool if they did it right.

MB

Close, but Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is 10 million light years tall, or 100 times the size of the Milky Way Galaxy.

Though for completeness, Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is 52.8 billion light years tall, or 57% the diameter of the observable universe.
It then creates a drill 10 times its own size.

I guess you could say the movie turned it up to 12.

I wonder if GW then ever went through this thread...

 Crimson wrote:
This sounds really unlikely, but we'll see.

Harry hinted that a ragestorm would ensue, but I really cannot see how slightly tweaked armour design would cause that. Maybe there is a slight scale change as well? On the other hand, that would be incredibly risky, it would invalidate FW's HH line, and risk alienating GW's most important customers, the marine players.

As for new designs, I always liked this concept, especially the shoulderpads and the asymmetrical leg armour.

Id buy those. Its a nice segway between the cirrent designs and something more modern (and unique).

And Im hopin like hell for a scale change. I thought the Dark Vengeance Chosen were the best plastica GW put out over, in large part because they were fluff accurate size wise.

Their IP is as protected now as it will be after all these ridiculous changes-for-the-sake-of-change, and all they'll have done is drive away another wedge of their ever-declining customer base. Somebody seriously needs to slap GW's management upside the head and drill it into their thick skulls that the way to salvage their business and market share is to beat the competition with the quality and value of your product, not trying to twist your product and business model into some mythical perfectly-protectable IP that just lets you litigate everyone else out of existence.

Imma let you finish... but your post was pretty damned wrong. No, they wont stop recasters, but their IP and minis will be a hell of a lot more defensible after everything theyve been doing, and while they cant technically stop conversion bits houses, they can make it a lot harder for them to do what theyve been doing.

This sounds horrible.

To protect IP go beakies, not Iron man.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Verviedi wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So they're going to replace all the standard Mk.VIII stuff to "protect their IP"? I don't buy it. The standard Marine is GW's single most important and iconic image. They wouldn't change that.

It's still power armor, it couldn't look that different.

Out of curiosity H.B.M.C. has there ever been a massive fluff change when writing an FFG book and how did affect the writing process?

chaos0xomega wrote:
No, they wont stop recasters, but their IP and minis will be a hell of a lot more defensible after everything theyve been doing, and while they cant technically stop conversion bits houses, they can make it a lot harder for them to do what theyve been doing.

How exactly is it more defensible? The courts have clearly ruled that GW does not have exclusive rights to general ideas like power armor and WWI tanks with lasers, nor do they have any exclusive rights to geometric shapes like a marine shoulder pad. Changing the shape of the shoulder pad isn't going to change the fact that a particular shape is not protected, and third-party companies are free to make compatible shapes of their own.

Hope this doesn't cause them to destroy FW great Marks in the process.

Better stock up...

 Peregrine wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
No, they wont stop recasters, but their IP and minis will be a hell of a lot more defensible after everything theyve been doing, and while they cant technically stop conversion bits houses, they can make it a lot harder for them to do what theyve been doing.

How exactly is it more defensible? The courts have clearly ruled that GW does not have exclusive rights to general ideas like power armor and WWI tanks with lasers, nor do they have any exclusive rights to geometric shapes like a marine shoulder pad. Changing the shape of the shoulder pad isn't going to change the fact that a particular shape is not protected, and third-party companies are free to make compatible shapes of their own.

Which should tell you all the more that this rumour is bollocks.

It's one thing to know/hear/get insights of an upcoming product.

It's another to allegedly have first-hand insights into management decision motivating a product, not to mention THE flagship product of this company.

Any person with that kind of access to the board rooms to know that GW is re-doing Space Marines for IP reasons, could tell you a whole lot more details about far less confidential things such as release dates or product details.

Didn't GW just leave 25mm bases behind.. for.. what reason again???

 MLaw wrote:
Didn't GW just leave 25mm bases behind.. for.. what reason again???

Because marines (and similar large 28mm infantry) look better on a slightly larger base. That's all there is to it, the speculation about it being done for IP reasons is nothing more than tinfoil hat paranoia.

Wonderwolf wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
No, they wont stop recasters, but their IP and minis will be a hell of a lot more defensible after everything theyve been doing, and while they cant technically stop conversion bits houses, they can make it a lot harder for them to do what theyve been doing.

How exactly is it more defensible? The courts have clearly ruled that GW does not have exclusive rights to general ideas like power armor and WWI tanks with lasers, nor do they have any exclusive rights to geometric shapes like a marine shoulder pad. Changing the shape of the shoulder pad isn't going to change the fact that a particular shape is not protected, and third-party companies are free to make compatible shapes of their own.

Which should tell you all the more that this rumour is bollocks.

It's one thing to know/hear/get insights of an upcoming product.

It's another to allegedly have first-hand insights into management decision motivating a product, not to mention THE flagship product of this company.

Any person with that kind of access to the board rooms to know that GW is re-doing Space Marines for IP reasons, could tell you a whole lot more details about far less confidential things such as release dates or product details.

Actually, while I agree healthy skepticism in this case is probably warranted, it isn't impossible that something was inferred from the design brief. If the studio were instructed to create a new Mark of SM armour that had x, y, or z features, then someone in or around the studio could have made a logical guess at the reasons why, without necessarily bugging Kirby's private executive bathroom.

I know the Internet requires proof of all the things, all the time, but reading between the lines can frequently be quite accurate in real life.

Bigger Marines would look better on those bases.. current marines.. eh.. I don't know that I agree with you. It also makes disembarking a little rough.

However..

Even if it is just for looks.. you're telling me GW spent money switching all their products over to slightly larger bases just because they thought it looked a little better? If they were worried about that then why haven't they updated Warp Spiders, Ork Buggies, etc? I don't buy it.

 MLaw wrote:
Bigger Marines would look better on those bases.. current marines.. eh.. I don't know that I agree with you.

It's a subjective thing, but if you look at the current marines you'll see that they're kind of crowded on the old bases. Feet hang off the edge, there isn't much room for decorations, etc. Increasing the size a bit looks better IMO, kind of like how the FW Tau crisis suits and their 60mm bases look much better than the plastic ones on 40mm bases.

Even if it is just for looks.. you're telling me GW spent money switching all their products over to slightly larger bases just because they thought it looked a little better?

Why not? It's not like bases are an expensive change. They're produced entirely separately from the rest of the kit and thrown in the box at the end, and a simple base doesn't take any real mold design work. Plus, if it's not about looks then what is the explanation? None of the supposed IP arguments make any sense, and there's no evidence the for wild speculation about how a possible new space marine kit will be larger and require a larger base. Even if a new marine model uses a large base the "why spend money" argument applies just as well if you ask why GW would go back and put the old kits on larger bases AND sneak the new bases in as a preview before the new model that requires them is even confirmed.

If they were worried about that then why haven't they updated Warp Spiders, Ork Buggies, etc? I don't buy it.

Because designing entire new models costs a lot more time and effort than "designing" a new base.

A few thoughts on this..
1.. because GW sees all the guys like Dragonforge or Basicks(spelling?) as leeching off of them and making easy sales on their 25mm basing convention. Whole lines of products would be rendered obsolete from these companies. Sure they can just do the larger size, but as you pointed out, this would be far more expensive than just making a bigger smooth base.

2.. Infinity. They're kicking 40k's ass and I'm pretty sure they're using the exact same style and size of bases. Distinguishing themselves from the others using this type of base means that if the other companies don't switch, then GW has something that makes them a little more unique.. if they do, GW wins a moral victory because it's seen as the other companies copying them.

3.. They could be laying the groundwork for..like I said.. larger basic Marine troops. There are people who see where I'm coming from now.. and others who still think it's an idiotic idea.. I've been at this long enough to remember when plastic Baneblades were scoffed at.. never gonna happen.. or further back when people claimed you'd never be able to get monstrous creatures in plastic.. it just doesn't work. I have learned with them to never rule out anything.. regardless of how absurd it may seem or how drastic it might appear financially or logically.

4.. GW have made moves that are petty in the past. Look at how they handled the whole thing with BoW/Weyland games. However, in this case it could be a gamble that pays off. If Marines are released in a slightly larger scale.. it "could" drive sales for people who want the newer betterer models. It's almost diabolical frankly.. someone who owns a perfectly good Space Marine army would be compelled to re-buy the exact same army. I saw that with people who had the old-school 2nd ed multipart marines. Great paintjob, full tournament army.. bam.. new armor that's larger comes out and the old one was pushed to the back and he bought all new. It was funny because when Apocalypse came out he broke out that old stuff and it was pretty interesting seeing them together.

None of us know what's really going to happen or what's going on with these decisions.. and it's kinda funny that people are pretending to.. we're all just guessing here.. so let's have a little fun with it..

Would be hilarious if this whole rumor just turned out to be Ultramarines for Horus Heresy. After all, their helmets from the old HH card game (and repeated in the comic book they did last year) looked kind of Iron-Mannish.



That said, I've never so much hoped a rumor was untrue.

This sounds like a terrible idea.


It also sounds pretty sketchy. They just invested in, and released, brand new Tactical kits for both regular Space Marines and Blood Angels. Making those instantly obsolete seems like a poor investment.

 MLaw wrote:
1.. because GW sees all the guys like Dragonforge or Basicks(spelling?) as leeching off of them and making easy sales on their 25mm basing convention. Whole lines of products would be rendered obsolete from these companies. Sure they can just do the larger size, but as you pointed out, this would be far more expensive than just making a bigger smooth base.

Except that:

1) You can still use 25mm bases for 40k, so people will still buy them from third-party companies.

2) There is nothing stopping the third-party companies from making 32mm bases, so GW would gain nothing in the long run.

3) GW doesn't lose money from third-party base sales because every kit comes with enough GW bases for all of the models. All third-party base sales are in addition to GW bases the owner already has.

4) 25mm bases are still useful for non-GW games, so the third-party companies aren't losing whole product lines.

5) Moving to 32mm helps the third-party companies in the long run because now some of their customers that bought 25mm bases are going to buy new 32mm bases to replace them.

2.. Infinity. They're kicking 40k's ass and I'm pretty sure they're using the exact same style and size of bases. Distinguishing themselves from the others using this type of base means that if the other companies don't switch, then GW has something that makes them a little more unique.. if they do, GW wins a moral victory because it's seen as the other companies copying them.

You're assuming that anyone cares about this. Base size is well down the list of unique attributes the average customer is going to be looking for in a game, and most customers just use whatever the model comes with and hardly even notice the size.

3.. They could be laying the groundwork for..like I said.. larger basic Marine troops. There are people who see where I'm coming from now.. and others who still think it's an idiotic idea.. I've been at this long enough to remember when plastic Baneblades were scoffed at.. never gonna happen.. or further back when people claimed you'd never be able to get monstrous creatures in plastic.. it just doesn't work. I have learned with them to never rule out anything.. regardless of how absurd it may seem or how drastic it might appear financially or logically.

Except this is pure speculation with no evidence to support it. Even the rumor of a new marine model only says that it will be different and shocking, the idea that it's going to be a true-scale marine or other larger model is something random forum posters invented. And no, claiming that there's no evidence to prove that it isn't a big marine does not change the fact that it's wild speculation.

As for MCs and Baneblades in plastic, no, that's not really an equivalent situation. The models already existed and were part of the game, the only change was GW realizing that there was enough demand to make a plastic kit. Larger marines have no precedent at all, other than wishful thinking about how cool it would be if GW made them.

4.. GW have made moves that are petty in the past. Look at how they handled the whole thing with BoW/Weyland games.

Except that isn't "petty", it's business. GW's policies are certainly selfish and favor slight GW profit increases over the long-term health of the community, but they aren't just done out of spite.

If Marines are released in a slightly larger scale.. it "could" drive sales for people who want the newer betterer models. It's almost diabolical frankly.. someone who owns a perfectly good Space Marine army would be compelled to re-buy the exact same army.

It could do that, but it would involve GW spending an obscene amount of money on taking a huge risk with the one part of their company that is generating consistent sales. GW would have to invest huge amounts of money to redesign the entire product line, write off the loss of the current inventory of every space marine kit, and hope that the most common response is buying all of the new stuff instead of " you I quit". And it's difficult to see how this complete redesign would have any significant advantage over continuing to milk the cash cow with things like new tactical squad kits that people keep buying. The same customers that would replace an entire marine army with true-scale marines would also buy much safer products like chapter-specific upgrade kits or slight updates to existing kits.

While looking for space marine scale pics for my blog, I found this pic from over at bolter and chainsword. The OP says it is tau inspired but it seems alot more iron man inspired to me than anything else but very cool looking in any case.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263768-epsilon-omega-an-alpha-legion-splinter-cell/

 MLaw wrote:

2.. Infinity. They're kicking 40k's ass and I'm pretty sure they're using the exact same style and size of bases. Distinguishing themselves from the others using this type of base means that if the other companies don't switch, then GW has something that makes them a little more unique.. if they do, GW wins a moral victory because it's seen as the other companies copying them.

I'm not sure where you're getting this. I have 1 local store out of 5 (maybe 6?) that carries Infinity, and it occupies as much space in the store as the WHFB clampacks (which is to say, a section of shelf about 2 feet wide and 8 feet tall). The sales can't possibly be that high, because there just isn't that much stuff to buy. I bought Corvus Belli (sp?) but have yet to find one other person that has any interest in playing Infinity.

From a modelling perspective, the miniatures are nice metal minis, but they aren't nearly as good as GW HIPS, and just like most PP minis, there's zero incentive for me to buy/model multiples of models I already own. And, the only modelling value they have is painting small squads of a few factions -- which is to say, its modelling life cycle is not long.

that was an absolutely ridiculous comment. I wonder on which planet infinity is kicking GW ass, but it sure aint on planet earth.

Unless you want to argue with growth rate, but, as anyone who even has a basic clue on economics knows, lt's not a valid comparaison since the disparity in sales is so large;

 Peregrine wrote:

 MLaw wrote:
1.. because GW sees all the guys like Dragonforge or Basicks(spelling?) as leeching off of them and making easy sales on their 25mm basing convention. Whole lines of products would be rendered obsolete from these companies. Sure they can just do the larger size, but as you pointed out, this would be far more expensive than just making a bigger smooth base.

Except that:

1) You can still use 25mm bases for 40k, so people will still buy them from third-party companies.

2) There is nothing stopping the third-party companies from making 32mm bases, so GW would gain nothing in the long run.

3) GW doesn't lose money from third-party base sales because every kit comes with enough GW bases for all of the models. All third-party base sales are in addition to GW bases the owner already has.

4) 25mm bases are still useful for non-GW games, so the third-party companies aren't losing whole product lines.

I agree: GW doesn't sell any aftermarket bases (other than blanks, and how exciting is that?), so I don't see how companies making sculpted bases are "leeching" sales. In addition, many GW models are still 25mm base, such as the brand-new Harlequin Troupe (released last week) -- so obviously 25mm isn't going anywhere. Finally, SWM has already said that they're working on 32mm bases.

After working with 32mm bases on units with jetpacks and bulkier power armor models, the conclusion that I can arrive at is that I like them, and that GW made the switch just simply because bulky models look a lot better on 32mm bases and tip over less. I don' tthink that this was nefarious, anticompetitive, or financially motivated. Perhaps for other things, but not the base size changes on hefty infantry.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
This sounds really unlikely, but we'll see.

Harry hinted that a ragestorm would ensue, but I really cannot see how slightly tweaked armour design would cause that. Maybe there is a slight scale change as well? On the other hand, that would be incredibly risky, it would invalidate FW's HH line, and risk alienating GW's most important customers, the marine players.

As for new designs, I always liked this concept, especially the shoulderpads and the asymmetrical leg armour.

Id buy those. Its a nice segway between the cirrent designs and something more modern (and unique).

And Im hopin like hell for a scale change. I thought the Dark Vengeance Chosen were the best plastica GW put out over, in large part because they were fluff accurate size wise.

Their IP is as protected now as it will be after all these ridiculous changes-for-the-sake-of-change, and all they'll have done is drive away another wedge of their ever-declining customer base. Somebody seriously needs to slap GW's management upside the head and drill it into their thick skulls that the way to salvage their business and market share is to beat the competition with the quality and value of your product, not trying to twist your product and business model into some mythical perfectly-protectable IP that just lets you litigate everyone else out of existence.

Imma let you finish... but your post was pretty damned wrong. No, they wont stop recasters, but their IP and minis will be a hell of a lot more defensible after everything theyve been doing, and while they cant technically stop conversion bits houses, they can make it a lot harder for them to do what theyve been doing.

That design is dreadful.

I like Space Marines because they're Space Marines. I've played since Rogue Trader, and the only thing that has ever really changed is that the models have become far, far better. Give or take a few small redesigns here and there (like the introduction of MK7 armour). That doesn't really look like a Space Marine. It looks like somebody thought "I like anime, therefore there should be anime marines". No. Just no.

 Fayric wrote:
Perhaps GW realized that with the veterans released with the latest codex, and the BA done, they dont really have any more infantry kits to release for Marines.
(I know there is lots of PA kits left to do for CSM, but we all know they dont count in GWs eyes.)

Off-hand-
Legion of the Damned
Honor Guard (could combine with a redone Command Squad)
Assault Marine redo

 warboss wrote:
While looking for space marine scale pics for my blog, I found this pic from over at bolter and chainsword. The OP says it is tau inspired but it seems alot more iron man inspired to me than anything else but very cool looking in any case.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263768-epsilon-omega-an-alpha-legion-splinter-cell/

That looks awful IMO. Space Marine armor needs to be brutal, gothic and rundown, not like some generic GOW/Iron man clone.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
That looks awful IMO. Space Marine armor needs to be brutal, gothic and rundown, not like some generic GOW/Iron man clone.

Agreed. If it wasn't for the helmet, that armour would look like any other generic, near-future sci-fi armour.

Marine power armour is iconic because it looks the way it does. Once you go futzing around with it to any great degree you lose what makes it so identifiable.

So back to the actual rumor.

I have been told that there is a new mark of power armour coming at some point in the future.

It has been suggested that it looks a bit like Ironman's armour, but I haven't seen it so I don't know how close this is to reality.

As always take this with a pinch of salt. As you all know, I pass on what I hear, so if it's incorrect I apologise in advance.

Of the quoted text on the first page of this thread, these are the most important points and the only things Duffy isn't guessing on. Everything else about alien tech, release date, and whether the new mark of armor is a wholesale replacement or an additional release to current marks isn't part of the rumor.


So let us suppose:

What would Mark IX power armor look like? What design elements would the Mechanicus incorporate into their design?

Mark VIII Errant armor is the newest mark available right now. It's main visible improvements are the bullet-deflecting collar and power cable management. If we keep with that trend -- if it can be considered a trend -- and combine the purported kinda-like-Ironman look, then that suggests that, yes, the armor would be more streamlined than existing versions. A sleeker look is typically assumed as being more advanced and means that there are less glaring vulnerabilities since the armor's systems are (more) enclosed and better protected.



If we look at the bottom right marine from the sketches linked to by Kid Kyoto earlier in the thread, then (assuming that's a helmet and not a roughed-in head) we see the removal of the mouth vent/grill and the classic metal mohawk. If that design or similar were implemented for Mark IX, then I could certainly see why someone would liken it to Ironman, especially if the crest is missing from up top.


Thoughts on what we could expect in power armor evolution?

Those sketches look like Terminators. Look at the big blocks above their heads.

My guess is that if we get a new power armor mark that it won't be that big of a departure.

It's a human head as the helmeted version is sitting behind it and it's too small to be a helmet given the size of the body.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Those sketches look like Terminators. Look at the big blocks above their heads.

Why not? Maybe an intermediate mark, offering better protection than regular armor but not quite as good as Terminator armour, maybe equivalent to artificer (2+) or something along the lines of 3+/6++ or something like that?
Wait a bit, the dickishness is missing. I got it.
Those become mandatory for stermguard/company veterans/whatever and since it's among the most popular units, everyone has to buy a new one.

 Medium of Death wrote:


It's a human head as the helmeted version is sitting behind it and it's too small to be a helmet given the size of the body.

If I had to guess, I'd guess that those are concept sketches for SM Centurians.

 MLaw wrote:
Didn't GW just leave 25mm bases behind.. for.. what reason again???

No reason that we know of for certain, though many people speculated IP reasons (which I thought seemed rather far-fetched, as no base-size can be trademarked, occam's razor would suggest simply for aesthetic reasons).

Which is the very reason the rumour is suspect, IMO. Lots of people assume and speculate a lot of things from GW these days to be motivated by IP. The chances that this was some random internet-talk somebody took the wrong way seems indefinitely more likely than it being a true rumour out of Nottingham which also happens to confirm many of the more frenetic internet discussions.

Generally, a rumour about "I heard GW is going to release X" is more likely than a rumour about "I heard GW is going to release X because"

For a new product, even a top-secret one, there are probably still hundreds of people potentially involved. Artists. Game Desginers. Packaging. People from the factory floor. Logistics. etc.. All these people could leak a new product coming, but none of them could leak why a new product is coming.

The number of people actually involved in the "let's do it to protect our IP"-decision making is likely < 10. A leak coming from any of them is highly unlikely.

 Breotan wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:


It's a human head as the helmeted version is sitting behind it and it's too small to be a helmet given the size of the body.

If I had to guess, I'd guess that those are concept sketches for SM Centurians.

They probably are. I wish they'd stuck to that design.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So they're going to replace all the standard Mk.VIII stuff to "protect their IP"? I don't buy it. The standard Marine is GW's single most important and iconic image. They wouldn't change that.

I'm pretty sure Corvus is more iconic then Aquila. It looks better too.

Lots of people keep saying that the rumour is ridiculous, there's no way GW could be this stupid.

I say this is an example of Poe's Law.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So they're going to replace all the standard Mk.VIII stuff to "protect their IP"? I don't buy it. The standard Marine is GW's single most important and iconic image. They wouldn't change that.

I'm pretty sure Corvus is more iconic then Aquila. It looks better too.

Aquila is the figurehead (though Corvus is probably iconic enough in itself to not change things)

Wonderwolf wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So they're going to replace all the standard Mk.VIII stuff to "protect their IP"? I don't buy it. The standard Marine is GW's single most important and iconic image. They wouldn't change that.

I'm pretty sure Corvus is more iconic then Aquila. It looks better too.

Aquila is the figurehead (though Corvus is probably iconic enough in itself to not change things)

Spoiler:

GW thinks Aquila is unique, but in reality it bears a lot in common with Darth Vader and Stormtroopers, especially MK V over MK VII. But Beakies are extremely unique, and I can't think of any Spartans, Terran Marines, etc having the Hounskull helmets.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So they're going to replace all the standard Mk.VIII stuff to "protect their IP"? I don't buy it. The standard Marine is GW's single most important and iconic image. They wouldn't change that.

I'm pretty sure Corvus is more iconic then Aquila. It looks better too.

Aquila is the figurehead (though Corvus is probably iconic enough in itself to not change things)

Spoiler:

GW thinks Aquila is unique, but in reality it bears a lot in common with Darth Vader and Stormtroopers, especially MK V over MK VII. But Beakies are extremely unique, and I can't think of any Spartans, Terran Marines, etc having the Hounskull helmets.

Unique? Perhaps.

But that isn't the issue. It's about popularity, recognition value, etc...

I am pretty sure a lot of GW execs also wish their most iconic product would've been something more unique. Alas, it isn't.

If the rumour IS true (big if), we'd have confirmation of that from inside GW's top management. Of course, I am still waiting for some details on where the information came from that this new Mark (if it exists) was specifically made for IP reasons. Did somebody see emails they weren't meant to see? A legal document? Somebody overheard top brass talking on the toilet? The rumour would be a lot more credible if we'd have some inkling of where it came from.

As said, the explicit rationale of re-doing Space Marines for IP-reasons isn't the kinda rumour that could come from some freelance artist with a pint too many in the pub or a factory cleaner angry for getting laid off, etc...

Nobody outside HQ knows for sure, Wonderwolf, but since GW have made utter fools of themselves trying to crucify Chapterhouse and Spots the Space Marine etc. over IP, it's not outside the realm of possibility. Further inside it than you seem to think.

warboss wrote:While looking for space marine scale pics for my blog, I found this pic from over at bolter and chainsword. The OP says it is tau inspired but it seems alot more iron man inspired to me than anything else but very cool looking in any case.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263768-epsilon-omega-an-alpha-legion-splinter-cell/

Spoiler:

Right down the repulsor gubbin right there in the palm.

streetsamurai wrote:that was an absolutely ridiculous comment.

For a moment there I this you were talking about this:

Talys wrote:but they aren't nearly as good as GW HIPS, and just like most PP minis, there's zero incentive for me to buy/model multiples of models I already own.

For you, the GW 'hobby' truly is buying GW products.

Anyways, Corvus Belli closed off their 15mm historical ranges because Infinity is growing swiftly and they needed to devote resources to it. GW is this close to closing down their fantasy range because their overall sales are shrinking and WFB most of all. It's not as ridiculous a comment as you might insist.

 Vermis wrote:
Nobody outside HQ knows for sure, Wonderwolf,

But the original poster of the rumour claims he does.

I wouldn't have batted an eye if people would've brought this up as speculation. Or even if the rumour was about a new Space Marine Mark Armour and subsequently people started to speculate about possible IP-related motives.

But the rumour claims to know that IP is verily the driving motive. That makes it suspect, not least because the IP-thing is so widely discussed by fans at the moment.

Can they make a box of mk8 instead?

Wonderwolf wrote:
I wouldn't have batted an eye if people would've brought this up as speculation.

Wonderwolf, I don't think you would have said anything differently.

 Peregrine wrote:

 MLaw wrote:
Bigger Marines would look better on those bases.. current marines.. eh.. I don't know that I agree with you.

It's a subjective thing, but if you look at the current marines you'll see that they're kind of crowded on the old bases.

Even if it is just for looks.. you're telling me GW spent money switching all their products over to slightly larger bases just because they thought it looked a little better?

Why not? It's not like bases are an expensive change...

You're both right. Rarely are business decisions made for a single purpose. Having a bundle of 'positive' outcomes is pre-dominant.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Can they make a box of mk8 instead?

Honestly they are better off switching to beakies or mk8 if they want to defend the IP.

both are much more original than mk 7.

I can't get away from the fact that Mk IX is potentially taking the storyline forward. On the one hand, there is every possibility that it could be some super-special armour type that is 'found' somewhere, and shoe-horned into the background in the same way as the Stormraven and Centurions. On the other hand, I look at the 'End Times' in Fantasy and how that has changed background that has otherwise stayed pretty much static for 20 years, and how several sources now have said about something 'big' coming in 2015, among them Harry and BoW.

Would GW really be willing to risk upsetting the applecart for their top selling product?

I have absolutely zero interest in 40k these days, but I'm still very interested to see how this develops!

Hastings chimed in - there is going to be a 30k release from Games Workshop themselves (not FW) - he is a bit cryptic but makes it very clear what he is talking about: A 30k-related Starter set

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?404105-2015-40k-releases-according-to-BoLS/page24 (several posts on page 24 and 25)

Oh god no, don't let GW ruin what FW have been handling very well!

Uhm...and I guess the box will include a plastic Thunderhawk, updated models of all the awesome special characters and probably that organic Tau Battlesuit...

That's the thought process isn't it?

GW Proper: "This 30K stuff Forgeworld are doing is going over great guns, our disciples must simply love all things 30K, we will take it over, and make a lot more cash by churning out plastic kits rather than resin, sticking 30K on it and putting it in all the shops. "

Forgeworld: "Well, I think some of the reasons it has been popular is because we've tried really hard to maintain the integrity of the setting and paid careful attention to striking a balance between respecting old stuff and innovating."

GW Proper: "Shut up and sculpt me a 30K Marneus Calgar."

I always thought the space marines looks a bit too bulky, and wouldnt mind a somewhat more sleek design.

The space marines have looked quite similar for a long a time now, and I for one would welcome a change. There is always 30k for those who likes the older marks.

Warhams-77 wrote:
Hastings chimed in - there is going to be a 30k release from Games Workshop themselves (not FW) - he is a bit cryptic but makes it very clear what he is talking about: A 30k-related Starter set

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?404105-2015-40k-releases-according-to-BoLS/page24 (several posts on page 24 and 25)

Ah, the "In case of bankruptcy, break glass" option.

Warhams-77 wrote:
Hastings chimed in - there is going to be a 30k release from Games Workshop themselves (not FW) - he is a bit cryptic but makes it very clear what he is talking about: A 30k-related Starter set

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?404105-2015-40k-releases-according-to-BoLS/page24 (several posts on page 24 and 25)

I really do hope that plastic 30K is what he means, instead of some sort of a horrible return of the primarchs end times mess for 40K. Not because I particularly want the former, but because I really really do not want the latter.

Whatever this rumour ends up being, be it new armour, plastic 30K, or an advancement of the storyline I am all for it!

The latest GW kit I got was the plastic veteran SM's and they were pure magic and should we get either newly designed armour marks or a starter set of some kind I have faith that I will love it.

Honestly the only bad thing I can think of happening would be the new set being Centurions 2.0, now that would be disappointing, especially after seeing those awesome sketches a few pages back...

Hmm, why am I thinking the update will just be a plastic character model and then a book with some minor changes but costing like $150 or something...

 Crimson wrote:

Warhams-77 wrote:
Hastings chimed in - there is going to be a 30k release from Games Workshop themselves (not FW) - he is a bit cryptic but makes it very clear what he is talking about: A 30k-related Starter set

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?404105-2015-40k-releases-according-to-BoLS/page24 (several posts on page 24 and 25)

I really do hope that plastic 30K is what he means, instead of some sort of a horrible return of the primarchs end times mess for 40K. Not because I particularly want the former, but because I really really do not want the latter.

On another forum the word was that GW has atleast considering switching over some of the 30k power armor over to plastic, because volume of demand, but had ultimate shied away from the idea.

GW's in this awkward position where their largest area of growth is a part of their company that doesn't scale up easily and the nature of which makes it difficult for them to capitalize on their industrial advantages. We got harlequins and if the rumors of plastic SoB and Mechanicum are true I think its safe to say that GW has realized that FW's has been taking advantage of the veteran player market and it needs to as well.

The starter set will be joined by a plastic heresy armour set and some plastic Skitarri over the course of the next year. The idea of these boxes is allow players to create armies that can be played in both 30k and 40k and as such expand both markets.

Both Admech and the Legions produced by FW proved to be popular beyond all expectations. So popular infact that GW can justify pumping out kits for a game that isn't even one of their core games. It's also being done as a safety nets, in case 9th ed Fantasy (Which 30k now outsells) crashes and burns, then they have 30k in place to pick up the pieces.

The Old armour kit will be a mix of armour types rather than a kit of say Mk4 armour. All parts will be of course compatible with the current Space Marine range. I do believe a plastic servitor is being done too.

 WhispererofTruth wrote:
The starter set will be joined by a plastic heresy armour set and some plastic Skitarri over the course of the next year. The idea of these boxes is allow players to create armies that can be played in both 30k and 40k and as such expand both markets.

Both Admech and the Legions produced by FW proved to be popular beyond all expectations. So popular infact that GW can justify pumping out kits for a game that isn't even one of their core games. It's also being done as a safety nets, in case 9th ed Fantasy (Which 30k now outsells) crashes and burns, then they have 30k in place to pick up the pieces.

The Old armour kit will be a mix of armour types rather than a kit of say Mk4 armour. All parts will be of course compatible with the current Space Marine range. I do believe a plastic servitor is being done too.

This sounds more appealing, I hope that's all it is.

 WhispererofTruth wrote:
The starter set will be joined by a plastic heresy armour set and some plastic Skitarri over the course of the next year. The idea of these boxes is allow players to create armies that can be played in both 30k and 40k and as such expand both markets.

Consequently homogenising both settings and running a real risk that everything that FW does right with 30K will be squeezed out by the money grabbing of Pappa GW.

Not saying this will happen necessarily, but I think there's a significant chance it may, and, setting aside any concerns over the provenance of the info, could ultimately end up ruining 30K rather than improving 40K.

Fingers crossed Alan Bligh still retains substantial input.

 WhispererofTruth wrote:
The starter set will be joined by a plastic heresy armour set and some plastic Skitarri over the course of the next year. The idea of these boxes is allow players to create armies that can be played in both 30k and 40k and as such expand both markets.

Both Admech and the Legions produced by FW proved to be popular beyond all expectations. So popular infact that GW can justify pumping out kits for a game that isn't even one of their core games. It's also being done as a safety nets, in case 9th ed Fantasy (Which 30k now outsells) crashes and burns, then they have 30k in place to pick up the pieces.

The Old armour kit will be a mix of armour types rather than a kit of say Mk4 armour. All parts will be of course compatible with the current Space Marine range. I do believe a plastic servitor is being done too.

I really hope you're right.

 WhispererofTruth wrote:
The starter set will be joined by a plastic heresy armour set and some plastic Skitarri over the course of the next year. The idea of these boxes is allow players to create armies that can be played in both 30k and 40k and as such expand both markets.

Both Admech and the Legions produced by FW proved to be popular beyond all expectations. So popular infact that GW can justify pumping out kits for a game that isn't even one of their core games. It's also being done as a safety nets, in case 9th ed Fantasy (Which 30k now outsells) crashes and burns, then they have 30k in place to pick up the pieces.

The Old armour kit will be a mix of armour types rather than a kit of say Mk4 armour. All parts will be of course compatible with the current Space Marine range. I do believe a plastic servitor is being done too.

Are you the source for this or are you reposting it from elsewhere?

 Azreal13 wrote:

 WhispererofTruth wrote:
The starter set will be joined by a plastic heresy armour set and some plastic Skitarri over the course of the next year. The idea of these boxes is allow players to create armies that can be played in both 30k and 40k and as such expand both markets.

Consequently homogenising both settings and running a real risk that everything that FW does right with 30K will be squeezed out by the money grabbing of Pappa GW.

Not saying this will happen necessarily, but I think there's a significant chance it may, and, setting aside any concerns over the provenance of the info, could ultimately end up ruining 30K rather than improving 40K.

Fingers crossed Alan Bligh still retains substantial input.

in truth, capitalizing on the popularity of 30K (both the FW and BL products) should be a no-brainer for GW. It's an incredibly easy way to spin their current product lines with a "new game smell" by simply offering variant 30K Codexes for most of their 40K armies.

But, this generates a problem. GW has been very careful about keeping Forgeworld separate. If they actively promote and produce 30K, then that drives up even greater demand for the FW products. I can't see GW suddenly rolling out plastic Spartans, Fellblades, Primarchs, Sicarans, Lightning fighters, etc. So, this means GW will have to actually point people towards Forgeworld to get the models for their now GW-branded 30K Codexes, Unless, disturbingly, GW decides to remove those options?

The sad fact is, it would be incredibly easy for GW to make 30K a core game and to do it right, but their current management somehow finds a way to screw up even very easy things.

I do believe Whisperer is the source for this rumor.

I do appreciate the move away from cryptic comments to things more direct like this, so thank you

FW is far less healthy than you think.

FW-revenue historically was hugely Games Day-dependent (for which non-FW bore overheads and staff-costs).

Without GD, and FW stuck with paying for their own events (e.g. Heresy Weekender), FW is feeling the heat these days.

Sad Panda wrote:
FW is far less healthy than you think.

FW-revenue historically was hugely Games Day-dependent (for which non-FW bore overheads and staff-costs).

Without GD, and FW stuck with paying for their own events (e.g. Heresy Weekender), FW is feeling the heat these days.

And that's based on what...

I really prefere humans vs aliens or aliens vs aliens. NOT MARINES VS MARINES!! So legitimately sick of marines.


Aye aye aye!!!!


P.S sorry for being that guy!

[Checks thread title]

You might not be the the right place then!

 ImAGeek wrote:

Sad Panda wrote:
FW is far less healthy than you think.

FW-revenue historically was hugely Games Day-dependent (for which non-FW bore overheads and staff-costs).

Without GD, and FW stuck with paying for their own events (e.g. Heresy Weekender), FW is feeling the heat these days.

And that's based on what...

Well, Panda has been on the money with any info we're now in a position to confirm. But taking that out of the equation, FW don't make a huge amount of cash in the grand scheme of things for GW, and what he says is perfectly logical, even if he's making it up.

I really hope that GW proper will leave 30K well enough alone. It's the last sort of interesting bit left of 40K. FW has done a good job with the whole setting and it shows. GW has done a good job of ruining the 40K setting which, sadly enough, also shows. I really think that GW touching 30K would ruin it.

Let them make some plastic kits for the various MK armors and keep well enough away from 30K.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Sad Panda wrote:
FW is far less healthy than you think.

FW-revenue historically was hugely Games Day-dependent (for which non-FW bore overheads and staff-costs).

Without GD, and FW stuck with paying for their own events (e.g. Heresy Weekender), FW is feeling the heat these days.

And that's based on what...

Well, Panda has been on the money with any info we're now in a position to confirm. But taking that out of the equation, FW don't make a huge amount of cash in the grand scheme of things for GW, and what he says is perfectly logical, even if he's making it up.

For what they are, a niche in a niche, I'm pretty sure they're doing okay for themselves with the heresy stuff. I don't think they'd do the weekenders if they didn't have the money to do so.

New armor looks like Iron man!
Disney sees new armor


"Protect...your IP....Your so.....Cute"



Then GW is brutally murdered.

Wont happen, but it would be kind of funny in a sad way.

The Weekenders are just a giant sales event. I'm guessing the only reason they do them is that they see a profit from putting them on and "presaling" all the "exclusives".

I mean, look at the advertisements for the Weekenders. "Look at these sweet mugs and shirts and models you can't get anywhere else!"

However, if FW is footing the bill for them, it means it narrows their margins. It isn't about not having the money to do them. It's about not making as much money from them as they did when they could piggyback on Games Day.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:


But, this generates a problem. GW has been very careful about keeping Forgeworld separate. If they actively promote and produce 30K, then that drives up even greater demand for the FW products. I can't see GW suddenly rolling out plastic Spartans, Fellblades, Primarchs, Sicarans, Lightning fighters, etc. So, this means GW will have to actually point people towards Forgeworld to get the models for their now GW-branded 30K Codexes, Unless, disturbingly, GW decides to remove those options?

The only other option would be to specifically brand the GW version of 30k as a skirmish level game which would be the complete opposite of the theme of 30k and it's "great crusade" and "horus heresy" style settings of big, badder, better.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

However, if FW is footing the bill for them, it means it narrows their margins. It isn't about not having the money to do them. It's about not making as much money from them as they did when they could piggyback on Games Day.

Oh I see what you mean.

MkIX armour? No thanks. But Horus Heresy in plastic, with starter set and actual kits? Oh Hell yes! A mixed MkIII-VI kit with options ect would be just about awesomeness distilled!

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Sad Panda wrote:
FW is far less healthy than you think.

FW-revenue historically was hugely Games Day-dependent (for which non-FW bore overheads and staff-costs).

Without GD, and FW stuck with paying for their own events (e.g. Heresy Weekender), FW is feeling the heat these days.

And that's based on what...

Well, Panda has been on the money with any info we're now in a position to confirm. But taking that out of the equation, FW don't make a huge amount of cash in the grand scheme of things for GW, and what he says is perfectly logical, even if he's making it up.

For what they are, a niche in a niche, I'm pretty sure they're doing okay for themselves with the heresy stuff. I don't think they'd do the weekenders if they didn't have the money to do so.

Let me put it in context for you. Both the stores and third party retailers generated ~£22m each in the first half of GW's current financial year. (So £44m combined.) In their report, they have a third category "Mail Order" which includes all of the direct sales through the website and all Black Library sales and all Forge World sales. This generated £11m for the same period.

So FW contributes a percentage of approximately 1/5th of GW's revenue. They also produce resin miniatures which, on a mini by mini basis, cost more to produce than plastic, and in many parts of the world, don't sell for an appreciable amount more than GW stuff does.

I have absolutely no problem believing that FW aren't quite the cash printing machine the causal hobbyist may assume, but I do believe their continued existence is critical to the chances of GW pulling out of their current doldrums and having a healthy future.

Calling complete BS on the 30k from GW rumour. They may introduce some "ancient design" or something but they will not interfere with 30k ruleswise.

 Azreal13 wrote:

Let me put it in context for you. Both the stores and third party retailers generated ~£22m each in the first half of GW's current financial year. (So £44m combined.) In their report, they have a third category "Mail Order" which includes all of the direct sales through the website and all Black Library sales and all Forge World sales. This generated £11m for the same period.

So FW contributes a percentage of approximately 1/5th of GW's revenue. They also produce resin miniatures which, on a mini by mini basis, cost more to produce than plastic, and in many parts of the world, don't sell for an appreciable amount more than GW stuff does.

I have absolutely no problem believing that FW aren't quite the cash printing machine the causal hobbyist may assume, but I do believe their continued existence is critical to the chances of GW pulling out of their current doldrums and having a healthy future.

Without checking the numbers (just assuming that what you have is correct), I don't see how you figure FW contributes 1/5 of GW's revenue. If the total is GBP44m, and the Mail Order component is GBP11m, how do you reach the conclusion that FW brings in most of that 8.8 of the 11m (or 80%)?

I would contest that conclusion and say that the ranking of sales would have the website as the highest percentage of purchases (at least 50%), and I would say that Black Library gets at least near to FW in sales. Perhaps in the UK, where shipping is more reasonable, FW sales are great. However, out of all of the 40k people I've known well (say, 60-80), maybe 3 have made FW purchases. 1 of those makes consistent, large purchases ($3000+/yr), the other two place an order a couple times a year at most (enough to get free International shipping, I think $200). A few others, like me, have ordered once or twice from FW in their lifetimes, but it's so rare that it's hardly worth mentioning. Part of the problem is that it takes a really long time to get here, and we get killed by duties and import fees.

In contrast, I know many people who have bought at least *something* from Black Library -- some people have ePub versions of all the codices, many people have dataslates, and many people have ePub books -- and I would say more than half the people I know who are 40k regulars have bought from the Web Store in the last 2 years.

The Web Store encourages you to buy at least $65USD/$80 CAD (for free shipping -- if you don't hit the minimum price, the shipping is ridiculous), and there are many models and kits that are now web-only. In the last year, I've made 4 purchases on the web store, for instance -- one for Space Hulk (I was afraid I'd miss out on it, so I insta-bought it), and 3 purchases of around $100, mostly because I wanted 1 item that was direct-only -- shoulder pads, independent character, some finecast item, etc.

Talys wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

Let me put it in context for you. Both the stores and third party retailers generated ~£22m each in the first half of GW's current financial year. (So £44m combined.) In their report, they have a third category "Mail Order" which includes all of the direct sales through the website and all Black Library sales and all Forge World sales. This generated £11m for the same period.

So FW contributes a percentage of approximately 1/5th of GW's revenue. They also produce resin miniatures which, on a mini by mini basis, cost more to produce than plastic, and in many parts of the world, don't sell for an appreciable amount more than GW stuff does.

I have absolutely no problem believing that FW aren't quite the cash printing machine the causal hobbyist may assume, but I do believe their continued existence is critical to the chances of GW pulling out of their current doldrums and having a healthy future.

Without checking the numbers (just assuming that what you have is correct), I don't see how you figure FW contributes 1/5 of GW's revenue. If the total is GBP44m, and the Mail Order component is GBP11m, how do you reach the conclusion that FW brings in most of that 8.8 of the 11m (or 80%)?

He said "FW contributes a percentage of approximately 1/5th of GW's revenue," not "FW contributes 1/5 of GW's revenue."

Talys wrote:
Without checking the numbers (just assuming that what you have is correct), I don't see how you figure FW contributes 1/5 of GW's revenue. If the total is GBP44m, and the Mail Order component is GBP11m, how do you reach the conclusion that FW brings in most of that 8.8 of the 11m (or 80%)?

You just misread it. They didn't say that FW brings in 20% of GW"s revenue, they said that FW is part of the 20%.

Anyway, whatever the exact number is I think the most important aspect is which customers that money is coming from. FW might not make up much of GW's total profit compared to the kids begging their parents for a box of space marines that they'll never even finish assembling, but FW is a much higher percentage of sales to the older veteran players that GW depends on for their "we don't advertise at all" business model. GW needs to keep those people happy and available as a marketing tool even if it means keeping around a division of the company that isn't making big profit numbers.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant when I said FW is important for GW's long term prospects, that, and the fact that if there's any soul left in GW, FW is almost definitely it.

This isn't going to happen, GW isn't the brightest of companies but why in the ever living feth would they release a brand new armor kit when they just updated tactical marines and BA tactical marines. Wishful thinking will just lead to disappointment.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
This isn't going to happen, GW isn't the brightest of companies but why in the ever living feth would they release a brand new armor kit when they just updated tactical marines and BA tactical marines. Wishful thinking will just lead to disappointment.

Because there's an almost infinite demand for new space marine models? A new space marine armor version is plausible and a straightforward milking of the cash cow. The only thing that isn't reasonable is the speculation that it's going to be some completely new design that will replace all of the existing marine kits, magically protect their IP and prevent anyone from selling their own shoulder pads, and force everyone to buy new space marine armies since it won't be compatible with the older kits. The most likely answer is that there will be some kind of Mk IX armor kit that will be compatible with all the old stuff and just be another option for marine players to buy.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Talys wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

Let me put it in context for you. Both the stores and third party retailers generated ~£22m each in the first half of GW's current financial year. (So £44m combined.) In their report, they have a third category "Mail Order" which includes all of the direct sales through the website and all Black Library sales and all Forge World sales. This generated £11m for the same period.

So FW contributes a percentage of approximately 1/5th of GW's revenue. They also produce resin miniatures which, on a mini by mini basis, cost more to produce than plastic, and in many parts of the world, don't sell for an appreciable amount more than GW stuff does.

I have absolutely no problem believing that FW aren't quite the cash printing machine the causal hobbyist may assume, but I do believe their continued existence is critical to the chances of GW pulling out of their current doldrums and having a healthy future.

Without checking the numbers (just assuming that what you have is correct), I don't see how you figure FW contributes 1/5 of GW's revenue. If the total is GBP44m, and the Mail Order component is GBP11m, how do you reach the conclusion that FW brings in most of that 8.8 of the 11m (or 80%)?

He said "FW contributes a percentage of approximately 1/5th of GW's revenue," not "FW contributes 1/5 of GW's revenue."

The statement was a part of the annual report from FY14. The statement fell within the annual report and PriceWaterhouseCoopers did not comment on the statement in their opinion. Therefore, it is safe to assume that revenues from Forge World and Black Library are 9%. The mail order revenues are broken out separately and are approximately 13% of total revenues. Together, these two combine to reflect approximately 22%. I'm not sure if there is a rounding error in there, but it's safe to assume its darn close. Refer to page 8 of 64 of the 2014 Annual Report.

That's why you read audited financial statements and ignore the people who come up with their own models, their own regression, their own analysis, etc. Just stick to the facts as they are available and reviewed by an independent third party.

I might see it as a limited, self contained, mystery box kinda release. But GW doing a permanent 30k game, which would directly be in competition with 40k.

I think it's very dubious, even if Hasting is behind this rumour.

Would be a massive cash injection no doubt for them, looks like they're trying to push as much out as possible to try and get those sale figures up

 Peregrine wrote:

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
This isn't going to happen, GW isn't the brightest of companies but why in the ever living feth would they release a brand new armor kit when they just updated tactical marines and BA tactical marines. Wishful thinking will just lead to disappointment.

Because there's an almost infinite demand for new space marine models? A new space marine armor version is plausible and a straightforward milking of the cash cow. The only thing that isn't reasonable is the speculation that it's going to be some completely new design that will replace all of the existing marine kits, magically protect their IP and prevent anyone from selling their own shoulder pads, and force everyone to buy new space marine armies since it won't be compatible with the older kits. The most likely answer is that there will be some kind of Mk IX armor kit that will be compatible with all the old stuff and just be another option for marine players to buy.

I could see forgeworld making a kit, but completely revamping everything is ludicrous. And a multi-part plastic kit of them sounds off in left field unless they release new rules for the armor separate from a tactical squad.

Thinking about in purely the terms that the beancounters who run GW would I do not see any future that does not include an end times 40k at some point.

They are only going to look at the spike in fantasy sales caused by end times, effectively making a nice profit from what was considered a dead weight.

They are then going to think if they can make that much from fantasy, then running that against a successful part of the business is going to make them so much more.

If Hastings said it, bank it. I don't think it's that he's omniscient. But I don't think he chimes in unless he knows.

So...is this all one rumor, then? Is the "new mark" that Duffybear was talking about really the generic "old armor" that Whisperer mentioned? Hey, mk 3 ("iron" armor) could be considered to be reminiscent of Iron Man's original suit. It would also explain why Harry seemed to be hinting at something bigger. GW proper getting into 30K would seem to qualify.

And if GW is making this generic old armor, it says to me that they're trying NOT to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. Plastics will provide a real gateway into 30K, but leave the proper marks (and presumably the rest) to FW for those of us who care about such things.

A Mk 3 kit or whatever is something I suggested a long time ago. It would basically be a conversion kit for two armies - buy a box and mix it into your Chaos Space Marine or Space Marine army.

So yeah, I'm in favour of it.

Introducing the Mk IX armor ...



To be painted whatever color of your favorite faction marine ... Blood Angels, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists or Mace Warlords

Um..

I've seen a few posts here that worry me..

You guys are aware that Mark 5 was 'Heresy' armor, and Mark 6 was shortly after heresy that brings us into the '40k' realm, right?

And that Mark 9 comes after Mark 6 by several models...

So making Mark 9 armor doesn't invalidate any Heresy or 30k stuff at all... right?

It typically goes.. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9... So Mark 9 would be the 'latest and greatest' mark of armor, which means it wouldn't have been made before Mark 5 Heresy pattern, because it's... Mark 9.

I'm just a little confused by some of these posts I'm seeing because it sounds like people... aren't getting that?

Or are people just talking about something totally different and I'm just more confused than I thought I was?

drbored wrote:
Um..

I've seen a few posts here that worry me..

You guys are aware that Mark 5 was 'Heresy' armor, and Mark 6 was shortly after heresy that brings us into the '40k' realm, right?

And that Mark 9 comes after Mark 6 by several models...

So making Mark 9 armor doesn't invalidate any Heresy or 30k stuff at all... right?

It typically goes.. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9... So Mark 9 would be the 'latest and greatest' mark of armor, which means it wouldn't have been made before Mark 5 Heresy pattern, because it's... Mark 9.

I'm just a little confused by some of these posts I'm seeing because it sounds like people... aren't getting that?

Or are people just talking about something totally different and I'm just more confused than I thought I was?

Yeah I think you're confused, nowhere has anyone said MkV was after MkIX...

Also, MkVI was used late heresy and MkVII was used at the Siege of Terra

There's two contradictory precedents which either support or weaken the rumour of Heresy-era plastic infantry.

In favour: By GW's own admission in the last annual report (and the one before that) FW (and BL) are the big growth drivers at GW. Their percentages of revenue aren't as high as other sections of the business, but they're the ones actively growing while the rest of the business shrinks, particularly in non-UK markets. GW's bean counters may not be the wisest businessmen on the planet, but they can probably see that FW is expanding, GW prime is not in spite of all sorts of obstacles to purchase; volatile prices due to currency, expensive shipping, etc. To them, it may be, given GW's apparent decline in revenue that they want to hop on what's making FW successful (even if they don't fully understand why; better rules, as open communication as possible, less bad 90s comic-book models, etc) and produce some plastic kits which work for their range and customer base, which is evidently expanding, and still good for 40k prime, Space Marines in particular, their golden egg as it were.

Against: GW is adamantly against, historically, producing FW kits, lines, or even recognizing FW exists outside of Apocalypse. The Hydra has been the one exception to that rule (as without it, the Guard have no AA, but they nerfed it to high hell and made the laziest combo-kit ever out of it...). GW has the long held belief that making FW kits in plastic would "cannibalize sales" and not produce additionally revenue, as customers would buy the same amount of product, just from GW prime rather than from FW and thus wasn't worth the investment. This, of course, wasn't always the case, with things like Drop Pods, most Leman Russ variants and such being FW originally, but for years GW has avoided, at all costs, making FW models into plastic, and since Chapterhouse, has stripped what FW profiles existed in codexes (Guard artillery). This would be a big change in direction for them if true, and flies in the face of an established precedent in a company which loathes change (especially change which might make them money).

 MajorStoffer wrote:
Against: GW is adamantly against, historically, producing FW kits, lines, or even recognizing FW exists outside of Apocalypse. The Hydra has been the one exception to that rule (as without it, the Guard have no AA, but they nerfed it to high hell and made the laziest combo-kit ever out of it...).

This is not actually true. FW kits that are now GW plastic kits:

Valkyrie
Sky Ray
Piranha
Drop pod
Baneblade/Shadowsword
Manticore
Hydra
Some of the Tyranid stuff (I forget exactly)
LRBT turret variants

And those are just the ones I can remember easily, there might be more. They haven't done it for a while, probably because they realized that if they're willing to ignore fluff issues they can just invent a new unit when they want to make a plastic kit instead of taking an existing one, but there is precedent for it.