I'd say they are not a dirt bag chapter, they just are not heroes.
They are ran like some IG Regiments, not everybody in 40k is a hero. Some are just military groups who kill things because its their job and they don't really care about civilians.
If renegade chapters have taught us anything, it's that any chapter can go from hero to villain. Those who aren't necessarily heroes may have a stronger inclination to become villains if left unaccountable.
So, who do you think would bear watching in 40k? What is it that would make them garner such attention?
A tie between the Marines Malevolent and the Soul Drinkers. Marines Malevolent are well, malevolent and are very close to being declared heretics by the Imperium- they've already lost all support of the Adeptus Mechanicus.
The Soul Drinkers meanwhile are extinct, which is a blessing considering their hysterical incompetency and being the very definition of slowed. I can't really put their stupidity and incompetency to words, besides just being proof that Ben Counter can't write worth a damn.
Space Wolves, should be have declared traitor long ago.
Did WAY more heresy then the Soul Drinkers.
For instance;
Soul Drinkers attacked a mech convo for stealing their sacred relic.
Space Puppies decapitated a grey knight grand master and pretty much delcared war on the inquisition.
The Marines Malevolent are jerks, but I'd say the Minotaurs are worse. Those guys are just the attack dogs of the High Lords and a perfect example of how awful the Imperium can be to its own people.
Arcsquad12 wrote: The Marines Malevolent are jerks, but I'd say the Minotaurs are worse. Those guys are just the attack dogs of the High Lords and a perfect example of how awful the Imperium can be to its own people.
But the Minotaurs are exactly what the imperium wants lol.
Space Puppies decapitated a grey knight grand master and pretty much delcared war on the inquisition.
Considering the situation, the Sons of Russ are considered by many as bally Heros for what they did!
if you ignore that they called the grey knights in, knowing damn well what they'd do. and then acting like pertulant children when the inevitable happened.
Besides the Inqusition doesn't do that type of stuff for fun, and given their vaster experiance in dealing with the clean up, I'll argue that type of stuff proably IS nesscarily. the space wolves never have to actually do the post battle clean up.
Space Puppies decapitated a grey knight grand master and pretty much delcared war on the inquisition.
Considering the situation, the Sons of Russ are considered by many as bally Heros for what they did!
if you ignore that they called the grey knights in, knowing damn well what they'd do. and then acting like pertulant children when the inevitable happened.
Besides the Inqusition doesn't do that type of stuff for fun, and given their vaster experiance in dealing with the clean up, I'll argue that type of stuff proably IS nesscarily. the space wolves never have to actually do the post battle clean up.
Grey Knights aren't supposed to do the post battle clean up on THAT scale, either. Several of them were getting annoyed at being used for it when they should be fighting demons, instead.
(at any rate, though Lorgar beheaded that Grey Knight, IIRC that was after that Grey Knight already blew up two ships WITH ALL HANDS ON BOARD lost. That's a lot of dead Space Wolves and chapter serfs...)
Space Puppies decapitated a grey knight grand master and pretty much delcared war on the inquisition.
Considering the situation, the Sons of Russ are considered by many as bally Heros for what they did!
if you ignore that they called the grey knights in, knowing damn well what they'd do. and then acting like pertulant children when the inevitable happened.
Besides the Inqusition doesn't do that type of stuff for fun, and given their vaster experiance in dealing with the clean up, I'll argue that type of stuff proably IS nesscarily. the space wolves never have to actually do the post battle clean up.
Grey Knights aren't supposed to do the post battle clean up on THAT scale, either. Several of them were getting annoyed at being used for it when they should be fighting demons, instead.
(at any rate, though Lorgar beheaded that Grey Knight, IIRC that was after that Grey Knight already blew up two ships WITH ALL HANDS ON BOARD lost. That's a lot of dead Space Wolves and chapter serfs...)
Actually if you really look at the months of shame post Armageddon, The grey knights were just following the orders of an overzealous inquisitor, who may or may not have been a heretic.
The grey knigths that were killed were a huge loss, but it wasn't because the Grey Knights were being petulant or selfish. they were purging possibly tainted populations because the inquisitor told them to. and at that point in the fluff they are the chamber militant of the Ordo Malleus which means the inquisitor was their commanding officer. That story is about morality versus safty.
Anyway if i had to pick a bad boy/ duchebag chapter it would have to be the Minotaurs. they are known for specifically killing other marines.
Yes it does. You're attempting to paint the Wolves as being the aggressors in the situation when they clearly weren't. Their protest against the Inquisition/Grey Knights was entirely peaceful until the Grey Knights started killing Space Wolves, at which point the Wolves retaliated.
"b-but the Inquisition said!" is irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion, since it's an out-of-character discussion and the Inquisition is a fallible (and inconsistent) organization. If the Space Wolves are "dirt-bags" for going against the Inquisitions' orders, then you would have to concede that Gaunt, Eisenhorn, Ravenor and every other hero of the Imperium who's defied the Inquisition is as well.
Yes it does. You're attempting to paint the Wolves as being the aggressors in the situation when they clearly weren't. Their protest against the Inquisition/Grey Knights was entirely peaceful until the Grey Knights started killing Space Wolves, at which point the Wolves retaliated.
"b-but the Inquisition said!" is irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion, since it's an out-of-character discussion and the Inquisition is a fallible (and inconsistent) organization. If the Space Wolves are "dirt-bags" for going against the Inquisitions' orders, then you would have to concede that Gaunt, Eisenhorn, Ravenor and every other hero of the Imperium who's defied the Inquisition is as well.
But its not irrelevant, they are a chamber militant of the inquisition, They do as the inquisition says. The inquisition is law.
No ifs and or buts.
If the imperial guard lands on your planet and blows stuff up and you fire back your a heretic (defense is no justification to resisting the imperium.). Their is a strict hierarchy and no matter how hard the space marines try they are sub servant to the inquisition.
As the highest authority it does not matter if they spout out a load. As long the inquisition enforces it that's the law.
Turns out the imperium is grimdark. Live with it lol.
Yes it does. You're attempting to paint the Wolves as being the aggressors in the situation when they clearly weren't. Their protest against the Inquisition/Grey Knights was entirely peaceful until the Grey Knights started killing Space Wolves, at which point the Wolves retaliated.
"b-but the Inquisition said!" is irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion, since it's an out-of-character discussion and the Inquisition is a fallible (and inconsistent) organization. If the Space Wolves are "dirt-bags" for going against the Inquisitions' orders, then you would have to concede that Gaunt, Eisenhorn, Ravenor and every other hero of the Imperium who's defied the Inquisition is as well.
But its not irrelevant, they are a chamber militant of the inquisition, They do as the inquisition says. The inquisition is law.
No ifs and or buts.
If the imperial guard lands on your planet and blows stuff up and you fire back your a heretic (defense is no justification to resisting the imperium.). Their is a strict hierarchy and no matter how hard the space marines try they are sub servant to the inquisition.
As the highest authority it does not matter if they spout out a load. As long the inquisition enforces it that's the law.
Turns out the imperium is grimdark. Live with it lol.
Actually, Chapter Masters answer only to the Emperor or the High Lords of Terra.
They typically elect to go along with Inquisitors because otherwise, they're just asking for trouble later on. The Grey Knights are not necessarily subservient or dependent on the Ordo Malleus in the way the Deathwatch is answerable to the Ordo Xenos. They are a chapter and they have some of the same freedoms as other chapters. Their insanely close ties and status as military branch of Malleus makes them something of a special case.
Yes it does. You're attempting to paint the Wolves as being the aggressors in the situation when they clearly weren't. Their protest against the Inquisition/Grey Knights was entirely peaceful until the Grey Knights started killing Space Wolves, at which point the Wolves retaliated.
"b-but the Inquisition said!" is irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion, since it's an out-of-character discussion and the Inquisition is a fallible (and inconsistent) organization. If the Space Wolves are "dirt-bags" for going against the Inquisitions' orders, then you would have to concede that Gaunt, Eisenhorn, Ravenor and every other hero of the Imperium who's defied the Inquisition is as well.
But its not irrelevant, they are a chamber militant of the inquisition, They do as the inquisition says. The inquisition is law.
No ifs and or buts.
If the imperial guard lands on your planet and blows stuff up and you fire back your a heretic (defense is no justification to resisting the imperium.). Their is a strict hierarchy and no matter how hard the space marines try they are sub servant to the inquisition.
As the highest authority it does not matter if they spout out a load. As long the inquisition enforces it that's the law.
Turns out the imperium is grimdark. Live with it lol.
Actually, Chapter Masters answer only to the Emperor or the High Lords of Terra.
They typically elect to go along with Inquisitors because otherwise, they're just asking for trouble later on. The Grey Knights are not necessarily subservient or dependent on the Ordo Malleus in the way the Deathwatch is answerable to the Ordo Xenos. They are a chapter and they have some of the same freedoms as other chapters. Their insanely close ties and status as military branch of Malleus makes them something of a special case.
Fairly positive that the inquisition is above the High Lords. They sit on the council but it is the same as the commissariat, they can dome shot pretty much anybody with enough justification.
Shidank wrote: Minotaurs are a BIT on the douche side with as much as they love killing marines, aren't they?
Most SM seem like douchenozzles to me. UM, SW, Sallies are notable exceptions. Minotaurs seem no worse to me than, for example, Novamarines (the guys who will fight you if you dare transgress Codex Astartes). Seems like Minotaurs have a bad rep (among other Marines) mostly because they are sort of crossing the picket so to speak. SM chapters seem overwhelmingly independent from the usual IoM chain of command but Minotaurs take their marching orders straight from the High Lords seemingly without question or pretense of autonomy. Getting more toys because of this is just salt in the wounds.
That is how the Inquisition would like things to work.
In practice, however, having carte blanche authority can be just like having no authority. Inquisitors who try to push around SM chapters better be able to back it up. It's so much more effective to do things diplomatically. Being an Inquisitor is about getting gak done; not about having a Emperor-class ego.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CShaffer wrote: Fairly positive that the inquisition is above the High Lords.
That is highly debatable, considering both derive their authority directly from the Emperor.
Space Puppies decapitated a grey knight grand master and pretty much delcared war on the inquisition.
Considering the situation, the Sons of Russ are considered by many as bally Heros for what they did!
if you ignore that they called the grey knights in, knowing damn well what they'd do. and then acting like pertulant children when the inevitable happened.
Besides the Inqusition doesn't do that type of stuff for fun, and given their vaster experiance in dealing with the clean up, I'll argue that type of stuff proably IS nesscarily. the space wolves never have to actually do the post battle clean up.
Grey Knights aren't supposed to do the post battle clean up on THAT scale, either. Several of them were getting annoyed at being used for it when they should be fighting demons, instead.
(at any rate, though Lorgar beheaded that Grey Knight, IIRC that was after that Grey Knight already blew up two ships WITH ALL HANDS ON BOARD lost. That's a lot of dead Space Wolves and chapter serfs...)
Actually if you really look at the months of shame post Armageddon, The grey knights were just following the orders of an overzealous inquisitor, who may or may not have been a heretic.
The grey knigths that were killed were a huge loss, but it wasn't because the Grey Knights were being petulant or selfish. they were purging possibly tainted populations because the inquisitor told them to. and at that point in the fluff they are the chamber militant of the Ordo Malleus which means the inquisitor was their commanding officer. That story is about morality versus safty.
Anyway if i had to pick a bad boy/ duchebag chapter it would have to be the Minotaurs. they are known for specifically killing other marines.
Keep in mind I was refering to the Space Wolves acting like the pertulant children. they called in the Grey Knights, they KNEW what the Inqusition's MO in this case was. they just seemed to think they could bluster and demand their way past it.
Shidank wrote: Minotaurs are a BIT on the douche side with as much as they love killing marines, aren't they?
Most SM seem like douchenozzles to me. UM, SW, Sallies are notable exceptions. Minotaurs seem no worse to me than, for example, Novamarines (the guys who will fight you if you dare transgress Codex Astartes). Seems like Minotaurs have a bad rep (among other Marines) mostly because they are sort of crossing the picket so to speak. SM chapters seem overwhelmingly independent from the usual IoM chain of command but Minotaurs take their marching orders straight from the High Lords seemingly without question or pretense of autonomy. Getting more toys because of this is just salt in the wounds.
That is how the Inquisition would like things to work.
In practice, however, having carte blanche authority can be just like having no authority. Inquisitors who try to push around SM chapters better be able to back it up. It's so much more effective to do things diplomatically. Being an Inquisitor is about getting gak done; not about having a Emperor-class ego.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CShaffer wrote: Fairly positive that the inquisition is above the High Lords.
That is highly debatable, considering both derive their authority directly from the Emperor.
Who watchs the watchmen? Nobody lol.
Inquisition answers to itself.
For me it's a toss up between Marines Malevolent and Dark Angels
And I'd like to bring up the Red Scorpions, while probably not the most D-Bag chapter, they'd probably make my top 10 most D-bag list thanks to Carab Culln and the events surrounding the Anphelion Project
I cant help but think that the Blood Ravens should be on that list ...they have relics from so many chapters that they have "traded" with .... no records are found that any trade of weapons happened. These guys would steal anything that is not nailed down, actually they would steal things that ARE nailed down too. Their chapter master/chief librarian pledged himself to Khorne ... a god who despises psykers. These guys are complete dirt bags.
The Marines Malevolent are probably the worst of them all, but just right behind is the Carcharodons. Sometimes they're just as bad when it comes to wanting to get the job done, as the Star Phantoms can attest to.
Manchu wrote: No, the Inquisition answers to the Emperor.
So do the High Lords.
Emperor is a corpse, inquisition answers to itself.
At least until he comes back.
Maybe, but the High Lords have the Officio Assassinorum. In a pissing match, that's going to count for a lot.
Also, unlike the Inquisition, the High Lords are at least occasionally united and not all excommunicating each other. That's the usefulness of having only 12 members in one place instead of millions spread across the galaxy.
On one last note on this, when the entire power of the High Lords was in the hands of one lunatic (Goge Vandire) the Inq didn't do a fraking thing about him, despite being very much around at that point in time. It took rebel forces from hundreds of worlds, led by a humble preacher, and several Space Marine chapters to bring him down. I think that says all you need to know about the High Lords vs. the Inquisition. Yes, the Inquisition is technically outside the High Lords' chain of command, but the Inquisition is a group of secret police within the Imperium. The High Lords have supreme authority over every other organization within the Imperium, with the exception of the Adeptus Astartes. If some random Inquisitor Lord tries to boss around the High Lords, he's going to become an unperson pretty fast, unless he has a truly massive group of allies behind him.
I really don't see how the Minotaurs are bad when they're the Military Police of space marines. Somebody has to enforce the law and keep the Chapters in line.
But ... that's not really their job. At least not according to history or tradition, which you may have noticed generally count for a lot among SM of all flavors. The Minotaurs are sell-outs and scabs. Where's the dignity in being Lackey Marines?
Manchu wrote: But ... that's not really their job. At least not according to history or tradition, which you may have noticed generally count for a lot among SM of all flavors. The Minotaurs are sell-outs and scabs. Where's the dignity in being Lackey Marines?
Looking at the Badab Wars, I'd say that their job is very justified. Plus it's not really "selling out" considering that the High Lords of Terra ARE the Imperium and the Adeptus Astartes answer directly to them.
I think you are taking on an organizational chart a bit too literally. In all the fluff I have read, the IoM functions mostly by cooperation thanks to shared values -- as opposed to each part of this sprawling institution rigidly and mindlessly obeying orders up and down an efficient, monolithic chain of command. SM are generally speaking virtually autonomous. They trace their lineage through the primarchs to the Emperor himself. Some of them don't even bother to gene-tithe, which seems to be their only formal obligation to the High Lords.
Also why are you bringing up whether what the Minotaurs do is justified? All I said is being MPs is not their job.
Wyzilla wrote: I really don't see how the Minotaurs are bad when they're the Military Police of space marines. Somebody has to enforce the law and keep the Chapters in line.
This is from Lexicanum on the Minotaurs. "The Minotaurs of M41, whilst appearing more at home within the bounds of the Imperium and seemingly enjoying the patronage of the High Lords, have still managed to acquire an unsavoury reputation amongst some of their fellow Adeptus Astartes, The Ultramarines and their allied Successor Chapters in particular have refused to fight alongside the Minotaurs as a result of both the Minotaurs' almost total eradication of the Inceptors chapter in what some saw as an over-reaction, their public insulting of Marneus Calgar and the provocation given to the Genesis Chapter during the fourteenth siege of Antigonis."
Here's exactly what they did to the Incepters. "The Inceptors fought during the Macharian Crusade, but during the subsequent Macharian Heresy they came to blows with their former allies, the Doom Warriors over a matter of honour. In the Euxcine system they fought a long-running and protracted conflict under predetermined rules of engagement. They refused to end the conflict, and as a consequence the Minotaurs Chapter was dispatched to end it for them.[2]
The two Chapters were caught unprepared and, although the Doom Warriors were able to escape the system, the Inceptors were stranded on Euxcine and were systematically destroyed until fewer than a hundred Space Marines were forced to surrender. Many of the Chapter's relics, including their flagship - a Great Crusade-era assault ship - were captured by the Minotaurs. The Minotaurs were subsequently denounced across Ultramar and forbidden from entering its boundaries. Other Ultramarine-descended Chapters have also sworn vengeance against the Minotaurs."
The Minotaurs are cowards, brutes and lapdogs with no sense of loyalty to their brother SM chapters. Again, there are a lot of SM chapters that do controversial things but to me, I hate the Minotaurs the most. Just my opinion.
Yes it does. You're attempting to paint the Wolves as being the aggressors in the situation when they clearly weren't. Their protest against the Inquisition/Grey Knights was entirely peaceful until the Grey Knights started killing Space Wolves, at which point the Wolves retaliated.
"b-but the Inquisition said!" is irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion, since it's an out-of-character discussion and the Inquisition is a fallible (and inconsistent) organization. If the Space Wolves are "dirt-bags" for going against the Inquisitions' orders, then you would have to concede that Gaunt, Eisenhorn, Ravenor and every other hero of the Imperium who's defied the Inquisition is as well.
But its not irrelevant, they are a chamber militant of the inquisition, They do as the inquisition says. The inquisition is law. No ifs and or buts. If the imperial guard lands on your planet and blows stuff up and you fire back your a heretic (defense is no justification to resisting the imperium.). Their is a strict hierarchy and no matter how hard the space marines try they are sub servant to the inquisition.
As the highest authority it does not matter if they spout out a load. As long the inquisition enforces it that's the law.
Turns out the imperium is grimdark. Live with it lol.
Who gives a gak though, my guy? I mean, how does defying "the hierarchy" intrinsically make you a dirt-bag? If the topic of this thread was "who is the modern authority-defying chapter" then I could see how the Wolves telling the Inquisition to feth off could be relevant, but since that isn't the topic, it isn't really.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: The Marines Malevolent probably take this mantle. The Minotaurs are a close second though.
I'd give the Flesh Tearers a pass, because at least they have an excuse.
Honestly, the Flesh Tearerrs are just World Eaters with the Black Rage instead of the Butcher's Nails. They get a pass. Minotaurs just make me want to punch a baby in the face with spiked knuckles on. Could somebody please provide examples of Mairnes Malevolent being douchebags?
Veteran Sergeant wrote: The Marines Malevolent probably take this mantle. The Minotaurs are a close second though.
I'd give the Flesh Tearers a pass, because at least they have an excuse.
Honestly, the Flesh Tearerrs are just World Eaters with the Black Rage instead of the Butcher's Nails. They get a pass. Minotaurs just make me want to punch a baby in the face with spiked knuckles on. Could somebody please provide examples of Mairnes Malevolent being douchebags?
Orks once took human hostages. The Marines Malevolent's response to this was to shell the hostages.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: The Marines Malevolent probably take this mantle. The Minotaurs are a close second though.
I'd give the Flesh Tearers a pass, because at least they have an excuse.
Honestly, the Flesh Tearerrs are just World Eaters with the Black Rage instead of the Butcher's Nails. They get a pass. Minotaurs just make me want to punch a baby in the face with spiked knuckles on. Could somebody please provide examples of Mairnes Malevolent being douchebags?
When they used Whirlwind artillery to bombard a refugee camp packed with Imperial civvies in order to get at the Ork warband inside the camp, Killing about 4,000 refugees, According to the Marines Malevolent those who are weak do not deserve to live(According to their leader's speech after the bombardment)
Yes it does. You're attempting to paint the Wolves as being the aggressors in the situation when they clearly weren't. Their protest against the Inquisition/Grey Knights was entirely peaceful until the Grey Knights started killing Space Wolves, at which point the Wolves retaliated.
"b-but the Inquisition said!" is irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion, since it's an out-of-character discussion and the Inquisition is a fallible (and inconsistent) organization. If the Space Wolves are "dirt-bags" for going against the Inquisitions' orders, then you would have to concede that Gaunt, Eisenhorn, Ravenor and every other hero of the Imperium who's defied the Inquisition is as well.
But its not irrelevant, they are a chamber militant of the inquisition, They do as the inquisition says. The inquisition is law.
No ifs and or buts.
If the imperial guard lands on your planet and blows stuff up and you fire back your a heretic (defense is no justification to resisting the imperium.). Their is a strict hierarchy and no matter how hard the space marines try they are sub servant to the inquisition.
As the highest authority it does not matter if they spout out a load. As long the inquisition enforces it that's the law.
Turns out the imperium is grimdark. Live with it lol.
Who gives a gak though, my guy? I mean, how does defying "the hierarchy" intrinsically make you a dirt-bag? If the topic of this thread was "who is the modern authority-defying chapter" then I could see how the Wolves telling the Inquisition to feth off could be relevant, but since that isn't the topic, it isn't really.
You right, guess I went off on my own tangent. Turned it into a F the Space Wolves. (not an inquisition fan boy, more of a dark angels lol.)
Yes it does. You're attempting to paint the Wolves as being the aggressors in the situation when they clearly weren't. Their protest against the Inquisition/Grey Knights was entirely peaceful until the Grey Knights started killing Space Wolves, at which point the Wolves retaliated.
"b-but the Inquisition said!" is irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion, since it's an out-of-character discussion and the Inquisition is a fallible (and inconsistent) organization. If the Space Wolves are "dirt-bags" for going against the Inquisitions' orders, then you would have to concede that Gaunt, Eisenhorn, Ravenor and every other hero of the Imperium who's defied the Inquisition is as well.
But its not irrelevant, they are a chamber militant of the inquisition, They do as the inquisition says. The inquisition is law.
No ifs and or buts.
If the imperial guard lands on your planet and blows stuff up and you fire back your a heretic (defense is no justification to resisting the imperium.). Their is a strict hierarchy and no matter how hard the space marines try they are sub servant to the inquisition.
As the highest authority it does not matter if they spout out a load. As long the inquisition enforces it that's the law.
Turns out the imperium is grimdark. Live with it lol.
Who gives a gak though, my guy? I mean, how does defying "the hierarchy" intrinsically make you a dirt-bag? If the topic of this thread was "who is the modern authority-defying chapter" then I could see how the Wolves telling the Inquisition to feth off could be relevant, but since that isn't the topic, it isn't really.
You right, guess I went off on my own tangent. Turned it into a F the Space Wolves. (not an inquisition fan boy, more of a dark angels lol.)
Not much of a Dark Angels fanboy if you're siding with the Inquisition. Angels are well known for not trusting the Inquisition and making Inquisitors "disappear". They'd said with the Wolves against the Inquisition if it came down to it. The feud between the two is more a brotherly formality than any real aggression.
No ones mentioned the Flesh Tearers yet. they turned on an Imperial Guard regiment that was helping them fight back an Ork WAAAAGH! just because they wanted to kill more.
Manchu wrote: No, the Inquisition answers to the Emperor.
So do the High Lords.
Emperor is a corpse, inquisition answers to itself.
At least until he comes back.
Maybe, but the High Lords have the Officio Assassinorum. In a pissing match, that's going to count for a lot.
Also, unlike the Inquisition, the High Lords are at least occasionally united and not all excommunicating each other. That's the usefulness of having only 12 members in one place instead of millions spread across the galaxy.
On one last note on this, when the entire power of the High Lords was in the hands of one lunatic (Goge Vandire) the Inq didn't do a fraking thing about him, despite being very much around at that point in time. It took rebel forces from hundreds of worlds, led by a humble preacher, and several Space Marine chapters to bring him down. I think that says all you need to know about the High Lords vs. the Inquisition. Yes, the Inquisition is technically outside the High Lords' chain of command, but the Inquisition is a group of secret police within the Imperium. The High Lords have supreme authority over every other organization within the Imperium, with the exception of the Adeptus Astartes. If some random Inquisitor Lord tries to boss around the High Lords, he's going to become an unperson pretty fast, unless he has a truly massive group of allies behind him.
Goge Vandire had the Sisters of Battle protecting him. The modern High Lords would only have organizations loyal to each individual member and the Minotaurs. The Inquisition has the Grey Knights, Death Watch and the Adepta Sororitas to call upon. Also the Ordo Hereticus wasn't formed until after Goge Vandire's rule.
And his peers, like Inquisitors and other Chapter Masters
Those are debatable in some cases.
A chapter master is generally answerable to fellow chapter masters from chapters that trace themselves back to the same primarch. This is why Space Wolves and chapters with unknown primarchs (*cough Blood Ravens cough*) get away with more than most would.
An inquisitor might simply lack the resources to peruse the issue, or, worse, several other chapters may back the offending chapter (for whatever reasons). The local Conclave might just tell them to drop it in that case, not wanting Badab War II: The Genoblastoapocalypticon opening in theaters in their sector.
Nobody. Orders a Chapter Master to do anything. You ask nicely.
That said, political pressure can compel a chapter to do things. Penitent crusades and so on. But a Chapter Master ultimately has the final decision. Obviously if a chapter gets too out of line, they get Minotaur'd. They know this. But that doesn't change that ultimately, a Chapter Master answers only to the Emperor. Not the High Lords. Not the Inquisition. Not their fellow Chapter Masters.
j31c3n wrote: Nobody. Orders a Chapter Master to do anything. You ask nicely.
That said, political pressure can compel a chapter to do things. Penitent crusades and so on. But a Chapter Master ultimately has the final decision. Obviously if a chapter gets too out of line, they get Minotaur'd. They know this. But that doesn't change that ultimately, a Chapter Master answers only to the Emperor. Not the High Lords. Not the Inquisition. Not their fellow Chapter Masters.
Actually, you have that wrong. It is "getting Minotaured" that means the Chapter Master answers to the Inquisition... or else.
The Sisters are also the go-to for taking out errant Chapters. The whole point of a Penitent Crusade is the Inquisition and/or the High Lords taking a Chapter to task for some slight, misdeed or crime. There's all kinds of things the Inquisition holds over the heads of a Space Marine Chapter, and *most* Chapters don't have the good fortune of being First Founding Chapters, and so either do what they're told or end up like the Soul Drinkers... or the Astral Claws.
I've never heard of a chapter explicitly being threatened to do something or even ordered to do something. SM chapters have their own set of routines, especially within their own galactic boundries and chapters receive requests from dozens of planets every single day and they ascertain the importance of each planetary request from most important to least. They are never told to do squat, they pretty much do what they want with the exception of having Inquisitors board their ships and visit their homeworlds every once and a while to make sure everything is in order. Obviously, the SW are one of very few chapters (if any?) that refuse the intervention of Inquisitors in any way.
Psienesis wrote: Actually, you have that wrong. It is "getting Minotaured" that means the Chapter Master answers to the Inquisition... or else.
The Space Wolves would beg to differ. Show me a source for your claims.
he's more or less wrong, even the inqusition needs to tread carefully with the Astartes, as the reach of an Inqusitioner is no more then his ability to convince people to back him. that said, the Space Wolves, as noted, are a first founding chapter, and thus DO have more leeway. ESPECIALLY because going after a particularly storied chapter will prove harder for an inqusitor then a no name chapter with an already poor reputation
Even then, "1st founding immunity" doesn't hold much water because the Inquisition has invaded Fenris on multiple occasions and tried to forcibly reign the Wolves in, even using Sisters of Battle.
They've just gotten the gak kicked out of them by the Wolves and forced to "let sleeping dogs lie" every time.
Which ultimately is the real dilemma for the Inquisition. Sure, with enough regiments and enough Sororitas orders, they could eventually crush the Space Wolves... but why bother? Are the Space Wolves disobedient? Obviously. Are they working against the interests of Man? Not really, no. They still fight for the Imperium, they still respond to Imperial pleas for help and still launch campaigns to fight its enemies. So why bother wasting huge amounts of manpower and resources to topple one of the most powerful singular forces in the entire Imperium when they're still putting in work for the team?
Thus, Astartes get a wide berth from other Imperial forces. The Ultramarines refuse to fight in the same theater as the Minotaurs, and no one is forcing them to do otherwise. The Dark Angels and the Iron Hands have both mysteriously and without warning pulled out of battles, leaving their Imperial allies to die, and neither have ever been disciplined for it. The Space Wolves and the Black Templars blatantly ignore the tenets of the Codex Astartes and no one cares. Purging a Chapter for belligerence is generally more trouble then it's worth, and tolerating them is a small price to pay when the flip-side is having one in your pocket when it counts.
Inquisitors may have ultimate power but still have to be careful.
Tact, diplomacy and such serve them just as well when needing space marine or mechanicum support.
Certain impirial organisations do not react well to threats.
How many have suffered from accident, malfunction or such?
Dark angels probbly made a few disappear.
Plus the sheer amount if effort to destroy a chapter when dug into there fortress.
Look how much pounding the space wolves did take and still was not breached.
Remember also that, strictly speaking, the Space Wolves were not divided into Chapters.
It's entirely possible that if you were to unite all the great companies (as attacking Fenris surely would) you're looking at a force possibly almost as large as the Legion of old.
According to fluff, only the Black Templars might be able to field a similar force.
BaronIveagh wrote: Remember also that, strictly speaking, the Space Wolves were not divided into Chapters.
It's entirely possible that if you were to unite all the great companies (as attacking Fenris surely would) you're looking at a force possibly almost as large as the Legion of old.
According to fluff, only the Black Templars might be able to field a similar force.
BaronIveagh wrote: Remember also that, strictly speaking, the Space Wolves were not divided into Chapters.
It's entirely possible that if you were to unite all the great companies (as attacking Fenris surely would) you're looking at a force possibly almost as large as the Legion of old.
According to fluff, only the Black Templars might be able to field a similar force.
No, the new fluff clearly shows that the SW are not even close to Legion strength. Logan has the largest great company as of M41, and it has 200+ Space Wolves in it (acquired from adding up all the members of the Great Company in the Champions of Fenris Supplement, albeit Runepriests, Iron Priests and Wolfpriests are not listed, which is odd because the new Dex states these specialists are hosted in the Great Company). So the Company of the Great Wolf, being the largest of all Great Companies, has at most 300 Space Wolves, and I'm being generous here. There's probably a exact number somewhere, but I can find it right now.
Also, due the ambiguity of the Black Templar's actual Strength, it is still the only Space Marine Chapter that can possible approach legion strength.
But 'Dirt Bag' chapter? I'd say Dark Angels. I said this because, one, just to mess with some heads; and two, is to raise the issue that many Inquisitors and one Black Templar Crusade seemed to have disappeared after crossing path WITH DESCENDENT OF THE FIRST AND MOST LOYAL LEGION ASTARTES, MOST VIGILANT AND VALIANT OF THE EMPEROR'S CHAMPIONS. I mean gee, it's not like they are hiding something, for SURELY THE PUREST OF CHAPTERS WOULD NOT QUESTION THE JUSTIFIED INQUIRIES FROM THE EMPEROR'S CHOSEN JUDGES!
Psienesis wrote:
The Sisters are also the go-to for taking out errant Chapters.
This has never been the case.
Other Space Marine Chapters and /or the Grey Knights have been the typical force called to take errant Space Marine Chapters to task. Has that meant that the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition have not tried to use SIsters to do it? Sure. And it ends up poorly for them as often as not.
The only fluff blurb that ever suggested that was in a Rogue Trader rulebook sidebar. And that was back when the Sisters were just galactic busybodies, and when Space Marines still supposedly worshipped the Imperial Cult. It has never been mentioned since then and for good reason. The closest the fluff gets to suggesting the Sisters are used against Space Marines is the Codex: Witchhunters line of "challenging Renegade Space Marine chapters" but provides no context beyond that which would suggest they are the "go to". It's simple Sister Fanon, lacking a reasonable causal relationship. "Because the Sisters will fight renegade Space Marines, it must mean they are the first choice." No, that's not how logic works, lol.
Meanwhile, when the fluff talks about Space Marines who have gone renegade, this is how it works.
Renegades:
Flame Falcons - Destroyed by Grey Knights
Relictors - 4 Chapters of Space Marines, then later, Grey Knights.
Badab War - Space Marines
Crimson Slaughter - Space Marines
Meanwhile, the Sisters glorious litany of self-provoked offensive actions against Space Marines:
Sons of Malice - lost horribly. Even worse, the sons of Malice weren't even renegades until they were attacked.
Space Wolves - lost. Again, the Space Wolves weren't renegades, this was more galactic busybodying by the Ecclesiarchy.
Just because they've done it occassionaly in the fluff doesn't make them the "go to" option. The Sisters are shock troops and religious enforcers, nothing more. They are also single-minded and unqestioning, meaning they can be easily steered in whatever direction an amibitious and clever Inquisitor or Cardinal can convince them is heretical. This is why they end up being routinely complicit in stealing Xenos artifacts, or foolishly attacking Space Marines. The Ecclesiarchy is the 40K universe's poke at the dangers of unquestioning belief and the consequences of reactionary action by religious zealots. The Sisters of Battle aren't used to attack Space Marines. That woud be silly. Space Marines are superior to Sisters of Battle in every way, from biology, to training, to arsenal. What the Sisters of Battle will do, is attack Space Marines if you convince them it's the correct thing to do, because they don't stop to consider consequences.
Llamahead wrote: Nothing about the Fire Hawks? As instrumental to causing the Badab War as the secessionists arrogant and incompetent
Didn't they quit the war because they had to fight on the *same* side as the Space Sharks?
Come on- what's worse than being so bloody-minded that other Space Marines will take their ball and go home rather than fight alongside you? No one did that because they were given the same job as the Minotaurs...
BaronIveagh wrote: Remember also that, strictly speaking, the Space Wolves were not divided into Chapters.
It's entirely possible that if you were to unite all the great companies (as attacking Fenris surely would) you're looking at a force possibly almost as large as the Legion of old.
According to fluff, only the Black Templars might be able to field a similar force.
We have solid numbers on 2 of the Great Companies, and a solid number on the total number of Great Companies.
Logan Grimnar's GC has 200 Space Wolves, and is said to be the largest Great Company. Ragnar Blackmane's GC has 188 Space Wolves, and is said to be the second-largest. There's 10 other living Great Companies (we all know what happened to the 13th). So, let's assume, for sake of argument, that the remaining 10 GCs have 187 Space Wolves each: 187x10= 1870 + 188 = 2058 + 200 = 2258 Space Wolves in the Galaxy.
Over twice the size of a regular Chapter, sure, but nowhere close to Legion-strength.
The size of the Black Templars has recently been stated to be only slightly larger than a full-strength Chapter, and spread out across the Western side of the galaxy (and elsewhere).
The Space Wolves survive because of their plot armor. Nothing more.
And if you need examples of Space Marine Chapters being ordered to do something by Imperial officials? Look at the Abyssal Crusade.
And if you need examples of Space Marine Chapters being ordered to do something by Imperial officials? Look at the Abyssal Crusade.
*Cough* Just so you know, the Abyssal Crusade only happened because the Space Marine Chapters were goated into volunteering to do so:
The Judged, as these fallen Chapters came to be known, volunteered for a redemptive crusade. The most militant of their number demanded the right to purify their tainted flesh in the fires of battle, to make a noble end from tragic misfortune. To the surprise of his closest advisors, Saint Basillius agreed to their proposal. He saw it fitting to send the accused into the Eye of Terror, taking the fight for the Imperium's future to the Daemon worlds inhabited by the Chaos Space Marines. (Codex: Chaos Space Marines. 6th Edition. "Abyssal Crusade". p17)
A representative from each of the doomed Chapters held an emergency Council of Dismay to discuss the proposed crusade. After scant hours of debate, they acquiesced to Basillius' demands, for they believed that martyrdom was preferable to an existence of suspicion and doubt. (Codex: Chaos Space Marines. 6th Edition. "Abyssal Crusade". p17)
Edit: That's not to say the chapters just ignores the high lords. Basillius was so influential amongst the High Lord he was able to demand the chapters be rendered onto his judgement and had it done in just one year.
No, the new fluff clearly shows that the SW are not even close to Legion strength.
Yeah, forgot new fluff. Which makes my head hurt as they didn't change other fluff, which means there should be no Space Wolves now. I hope we get a new Armageddon book soon.
The other way to interpret it is "It's in our best interests to obey these orders because, otherwise, a fleet's going to roll up and blow our homeworlds up."
A threat doesn't have to be voiced to be present. As Angelos sums up for us quite nicely in DoW, in regards to the Inquisition, "to hate them is heretical, to fear them: redundant".
Let's also not forget that the Inquisition draws its authority from the Word of the Emperor, either from His mouth directly, or from Malcador the Sigilite, who spoke with His authority (depending on which story you want to believe). They were given the remit to go anywhere, do anything, demand any resource, command any Imperial citizen, in the cause of purity.
The other way to interpret it is "It's in our best interests to obey these orders because, otherwise, a fleet's going to roll up and blow our homeworlds up."
A threat doesn't have to be voiced to be present. As Angelos sums up for us quite nicely in DoW, in regards to the Inquisition, "to hate them is heretical, to fear them: redundant".
Let's also not forget that the Inquisition draws its authority from the Word of the Emperor, either from His mouth directly, or from Malcador the Sigilite, who spoke with His authority (depending on which story you want to believe). They were given the remit to go anywhere, do anything, demand any resource, command any Imperial citizen, in the cause of purity.
If RAW. The concern was the chapters deemed tainted would have suffered an existence of doubt and suspision.
Psienesis wrote: Of course. And who better to spread such rumors than the body that polices the release of information in the Imperium?
I'm sorry, you are not allowed to use the "may be imperial propaganda" excuse here to bend it towards your point; at best it's a moot point because I can call this a ecclesiarchy propaganda seeing how it portrays the marines as easily turntable liabilities. Not to mention the same article details what many chapters faced in the EoT, how they are turned, something even the survived chapters could not know.
Also, what can "the body policing that police the release of information" gain from this, showing an imperial saint could be a dark apostle? Was it the Alpha Legion, or was it Cypher?
Point is, you want to read it as propaganda, I can't stop you; but pushing what you believe out of your own understanding independent from supporting materials does not make for a good nor sound argument.
Psienesis wrote:
The Sisters are also the go-to for taking out errant Chapters.
This has never been the case.
Other Space Marine Chapters and /or the Grey Knights have been the typical force called to take errant Space Marine Chapters to task. Has that meant that the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition have not tried to use SIsters to do it? Sure. And it ends up poorly for them as often as not.
The only fluff blurb that ever suggested that was in a Rogue Trader rulebook sidebar. And that was back when the Sisters were just galactic busybodies, and when Space Marines still supposedly worshipped the Imperial Cult. It has never been mentioned since then and for good reason. The closest the fluff gets to suggesting the Sisters are used against Space Marines is the Codex: Witchhunters line of "challenging Renegade Space Marine chapters" but provides no context beyond that which would suggest they are the "go to". It's simple Sister Fanon, lacking a reasonable causal relationship. "Because the Sisters will fight renegade Space Marines, it must mean they are the first choice." No, that's not how logic works, lol.
Meanwhile, when the fluff talks about Space Marines who have gone renegade, this is how it works.
Renegades:
Flame Falcons - Destroyed by Grey Knights
Relictors - 4 Chapters of Space Marines, then later, Grey Knights.
Badab War - Space Marines
Crimson Slaughter - Space Marines
Meanwhile, the Sisters glorious litany of self-provoked offensive actions against Space Marines:
Sons of Malice - lost horribly. Even worse, the sons of Malice weren't even renegades until they were attacked.
Space Wolves - lost. Again, the Space Wolves weren't renegades, this was more galactic busybodying by the Ecclesiarchy.
Just because they've done it occassionaly in the fluff doesn't make them the "go to" option. The Sisters are shock troops and religious enforcers, nothing more. They are also single-minded and unqestioning, meaning they can be easily steered in whatever direction an amibitious and clever Inquisitor or Cardinal can convince them is heretical. This is why they end up being routinely complicit in stealing Xenos artifacts, or foolishly attacking Space Marines. The Ecclesiarchy is the 40K universe's poke at the dangers of unquestioning belief and the consequences of reactionary action by religious zealots. The Sisters of Battle aren't used to attack Space Marines. That woud be silly. Space Marines are superior to Sisters of Battle in every way, from biology, to training, to arsenal. What the Sisters of Battle will do, is attack Space Marines if you convince them it's the correct thing to do, because they don't stop to consider consequences.
Not arguing for or against the sisters of battle thing but, I am adding to the discussion. If you want, use this for your points.
That's an oldie on the subject. Also, I believe there was a certain Flesh Tearer short story/book where the sisters purge a small group of them.
However it could be argued due to miscommunication and the black rage/thirst affecting the Marines of the Flesh Tearers that they were killed. I'm a bit loose on that bit of fluff. I hope someone can clarify/source.
Lord Tarkin wrote: I've never heard of a chapter explicitly being threatened to do something or even ordered to do something. SM chapters have their own set of routines, especially within their own galactic boundries and chapters receive requests from dozens of planets every single day and they ascertain the importance of each planetary request from most important to least. They are never told to do squat, they pretty much do what they want with the exception of having Inquisitors board their ships and visit their homeworlds every once and a while to make sure everything is in order. Obviously, the SW are one of very few chapters (if any?) that refuse the intervention of Inquisitors in any way.
The Abyssal Crusade. Thirty Chapters jumped into the big crotch stain of the galaxy known as the Eye of Terror to redeem themselves after they were accused of being tainted. They didn't go for fun. They were threatened with purging if they didn't. Sounds an awful lot like an order, or at least an ultimatum, to me. Like the Mechanicus, Space Marines have a lot of autonomy get away with a lot compared to the rest of the Imperium, but even they can be called to account.
j31c3n wrote: Nobody. Orders a Chapter Master to do anything. You ask nicely.
That said, political pressure can compel a chapter to do things. Penitent crusades and so on. But a Chapter Master ultimately has the final decision. Obviously if a chapter gets too out of line, they get Minotaur'd. They know this. But that doesn't change that ultimately, a Chapter Master answers only to the Emperor. Not the High Lords. Not the Inquisition. Not their fellow Chapter Masters.
"Being a peer of the Imperium of Man, the Chapter Master acts with authority as he sees fit, according to his own counsel and judgment, answerable to no one except his fellow Chapter Masters and the Emperor of Mankind himself or his representatives, the High Lords of Terra." http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Chapter_Master
That quote was paraphrased from 5th Edition SM Codex.
SO....Emperor > High Lords of Terra > SM Chapter Master = Inquisitor > Rogue Trader
Lord Tarkin wrote: I've never heard of a chapter explicitly being threatened to do something or even ordered to do something. SM chapters have their own set of routines, especially within their own galactic boundries and chapters receive requests from dozens of planets every single day and they ascertain the importance of each planetary request from most important to least. They are never told to do squat, they pretty much do what they want with the exception of having Inquisitors board their ships and visit their homeworlds every once and a while to make sure everything is in order. Obviously, the SW are one of very few chapters (if any?) that refuse the intervention of Inquisitors in any way.
The Abyssal Crusade. Thirty Chapters jumped into the big crotch stain of the galaxy known as the Eye of Terror to redeem themselves after they were accused of being tainted. They didn't go for fun. They were threatened with purging if they didn't. Sounds an awful lot like an order, or at least an ultimatum, to me. Like the Mechanicus, Space Marines have a lot of autonomy get away with a lot compared to the rest of the Imperium, but even they can be called to account.
Um, not what I was saying. They were tainted, therefore they were indeed sent into the eye. I'm talkin about the general way SM operate from day to day. What they do is never under direct orders. As I said, SM are still expected to follow the dictates of the Imperium so the Inquisition keeps an eye on them but other than that, they are never "ordered" to do anything.
Well when it comes to Chapters, the list can be very long. Most Space Marine are jerks. It's not really their fault. They are super soldiers created to be violent and murderous with very little humanity in them. On top off that, they all are religious zealot and not the merry type of religious zealot who heal the sick and feed the poor. Yes you can be religious AND believe the Emperor was just a men see Buddhism for an exemple of that. They place very little value on life including their own and have a disproportionate amount of pride when it comes to themselves, their Chapter and their other brothers. If one of us was to spend a day with a Marine, by the end of it he would probably wish he never met him (unless that person is a big fan of anthropological studies). But the worst dirt bag are probably the Iron Hands. They are so hatefull, careless and wrapt in their own delusion that they are a danger to themselves and their allies. Their own Primarch, a good man at heart if anti-social, thought they were going to far and was worried at the end of the Great Crusade for their sanity. His death made things even worst and so did time. My vote goes for them.
If a make a little resume of who was mentionned until now we got:
Soul Drinker, Minautors, Carcharodons, Iron Hands, Grey Knights (I think), Flesh Tearers, Marines Malevolant (talk bout wearing you faults with pride!) did I forgot anybody?
jhe90 wrote: Inquisitors may have ultimate power but still have to be careful.
Tact, diplomacy and such serve them just as well when needing space marine or mechanicum support.
Certain impirial organisations do not react well to threats.
How many have suffered from accident, malfunction or such?
Dark angels probbly made a few disappear.
Plus the sheer amount if effort to destroy a chapter when dug into there fortress.
Look how much pounding the space wolves did take and still was not breached.
The Space Wolves Fortress-Monastery is the second-best fortress in the galaxy. Even Rogal Dorn saw it and was all like "good 'nuff", and apparently he never complemented any fortresses that he didn't build, so that was high praise coming from him. The void shields alone are so advanced that the technology to build them isn't even around anymore.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Why does everybody keep listing the Soul Drinkers? Their books really portrayed them quite well.
I seriously want to like them. I think they are full of crap (excuse the french,) and just like the Marines Malevolent, their fluff... idk. It drives me away? I actually can compare more to the MM fluff then theirs.
Then again...
I /do/ sorta like the Dark Angels from another era (RT). Yeah. To reiterate, the only DA concept I have ever liked or even stopped to view was when they were originally clad in black.
They haven't had enough quality 40k fluff written, but what I can take away from the interactions in the HH seems to paint them in a similar(if more highly regarded) light than their 40k counterparts.
They just seem largely distrustful and untrusted. They seem to have a valid SM moral compass in regards to the Imperium, yet have a cold detachment from individuals in that Imperium.
The Space Wolves Fortress-Monastery is the second-best fortress in the galaxy. Even Rogal Dorn saw it and was all like "good 'nuff", and apparently he never complemented any fortresses that he didn't build, so that was high praise coming from him. The void shields alone are so advanced that the technology to build them isn't even around anymore.
I'm sorry but I disagree with your "second-best fortress is the galaxy" statement. I do believe it's safe to say Terra's Imperial palace is the best fortress in the galaxy but there are many contenders for second place. Whilst it may have some of the most advanced Void Shields and Laser batteries around, I don't believe it's the second most defensible fortress out there. Lexicanum states that is "perhaps the greatest fortress" since Terra but I believe there are better candidates for second place.
For a start, the Iron warriors build countless fortresses across the galaxy and they're renowned for their skill in these matters - I'd say their Fortress World of Medrengard almost rivals Terra itself and so therefore in my humble opinion, it would take second place. If you're looking at single fortresses though and disqualify entire fortress worlds as options, then I'd suggest other potential contenders for second place such as the Deathwatch Fortress of Erioch and the Grey Knight Fortress Monastery, the Citadel of Titan. The Phalanx and Rock could also have shots at second place, hell, the Rock survived a bombardment which destroyed Caliban around it. Loathe as I am to say it, even the Ultramarine Fortress of Hera is a contender, it was built at the height of the Crusade (and therefore most likely has some of the best tech too) and is made up of multiple domes which are each citadels in their own right.
These are just some options off of the top of my head and I'd pick all of them over the Fang.
Honestly, it surprised me how much damage the Thousand Sons did to the Fang considering how epic it was purported to be.
If a bunch of "sissy wizards" can put serious bruising on your house while your Lion bro's castle gets blasted harder than Alderaan and shrugs it off like it's no big deal, there's a problem.
Codex: Witch-Hunters pg. 5 wrote:
In addition to monitoring the Ecclesiarchy - ensuring that Wars of Faith do not exceed their mandate or that its many Cardinals do not amass more power than is deemed appropriate - the Ordo Hereticus keeps a close eye on many other Imperial organisations: the Adeptus Arbites, the Space Marines and also fellow members of the Inquisition. They monitor doctrinal and physical purity, and no one is beyond their jurisdiction.
Codex: Witch-Hunters pg. 11 wrote:
... Thus, the Sisters find themselves in the service of the Inquisition, performing purity sweeps through Imperial organisations, persecuting apostate clerics, challenging renegade Space Marine Chapters, guarding the most dangerous of the Ordo's prisoners and acting as wardens on the infamous Black Ships.
Codex: Witch-Hunters pg. 42 wrote:
Many Space Marine Chapters are notoriously independent, and often follow their own agendas with little or no recourse to Imperial policy. One such Chapter has refused to give aid when requested, resulting in the loss of a strategically vital world, and the Ordo Hereticus resolves to bring the Chapter Master to justice.
1) The claim that the Sisters are not used to bring Space Marines to heel.
2) The claim that Inquisitors have no authority over Space Marines.
Ah, gotcha. Inquisitors don't have direct authority, though. While I don't have access to Codex materials at present, you're welcome to look for more than Sisters of Battle references to attacking renegade chapters(as any militant body in the Imperium would).
Inquisitors can request and, for the most part, chapters acquiesce. If they don't and a significant loss is incurred, the Inquisitor has the power to review and declare them traitors for other chapters or militant forces in the Imperium to punish.
The point of Inquisitors not being able to order around chapters is actually pretty essential to the working of the Imperium. You cannot believe Inquisitors have power over Chapters if they don't actively ferry them around as a private army. It makes no sense politically for this to be the case. Luckily, we've had a decent enough supply of information in fluff to realize there is a tenuous balance where Inquisitors ask and are generally answered but where they cannot outright demand.
Inquisitors can request and, for the most part, chapters acquiesce. If they don't and a significant loss is incurred, the Inquisitor has the power to review and declare them traitors for other chapters or militant forces in the Imperium to punish.
That would be an example of said direct authority. An Inquisitor is (usually) part politician, and knows it's a lot easier to catch flies with honey than vinegar... but is fully within his/her remit to tell a Space Marine Chapter "go do this right now". The Inquisitor doesn't need to add the "or else" bit, anyone with half a functioning braincell in the Imperium knows that such is implied when dealing with an Inquisitor.
Inquisitors can request and, for the most part, chapters acquiesce. If they don't and a significant loss is incurred, the Inquisitor has the power to review and declare them traitors for other chapters or militant forces in the Imperium to punish.
That would be an example of said direct authority. An Inquisitor is (usually) part politician, and knows it's a lot easier to catch flies with honey than vinegar... but is fully within his/her remit to tell a Space Marine Chapter "go do this right now". The Inquisitor doesn't need to add the "or else" bit, anyone with half a functioning braincell in the Imperium knows that such is implied when dealing with an Inquisitor.
Since you've moved from 'Direct Superior' to 'Political Figurehead' regarding Inquisitors, I can agree that you can treat them as superiors. I would just prefer you acknowledge that they are, legally, unable to order a Space Marine chapter.
It's not a difficult position to comprehend that Inquisitors occupy and while no one here has argued that they aren't the most politically powerful officers in the Imperium, we've also acknowledged that the breaking of legions in the second founding would be directly contradicted by letting these agents have control of the most powerful military force in the galaxy.
So, if you would be so kind and for clarity of others who catch up on the thread, please consider this and either refute with explicit evidence which is practical in-universe within the long history of 40k or accept the position of Space Marine Chapter Master as an entity enthralled only to the Emperor and his representatives in the flesh, the High Lords of Terra.
Stormwall wrote: I seriously want to like them. I think they are full of crap (excuse the french,) and just like the Marines Malevolent, their fluff... idk. It drives me away? I actually can compare more to the MM fluff then theirs.
Then again...
I /do/ sorta like the Dark Angels from another era (RT). Yeah. To reiterate, the only DA concept I have ever liked or even stopped to view was when they were originally clad in black.
Eh, I can see it. I love the DA fluff and lore, but the one story that kinda bugged me is one of the codex stories, they were helping the IG who were fighting off a giant wave of Orkz IIRC. All of a sudden, they caught word of a possible Fallen lead, so they teleported and let the IG get wiped out. That always bugged me. I get the supreme mission thing, but they're still the good guys in my eyes, so abandoning the wimpy guard bothered me.
Lol and told you where to find it in GW printed fluff. Again, since you may have missed it, you can find the information in the 5th Ed. SM Codex.
A Chapter Master can only be compelled by the Emperor, High Lords, or an assembly of his peers.
Actually the DIRECT QUOTE is.. "A chapter Master is a peer of the Imperium, with authority to act as he wishes according to his own judgement, and answerable only to others of his rank"
So I suppose the question is do they mean chapter masters are answerable, on paper, only to other chapter masters, or are they answerable to anyone of equivilant peerage? (whatever that means)
Shidank wrote: Honestly, it surprised me how much damage the Thousand Sons did to the Fang considering how epic it was purported to be.
If a bunch of "sissy wizards" can put serious bruising on your house while your Lion bro's castle gets blasted harder than Alderaan and shrugs it off like it's no big deal, there's a problem.
I am more concerned with the obscene plot armour Bjorn displayed in his fight with Magnus.
Magnus should have been able to mentally snap him in half the moment he appeared.
Codex: Witch-Hunters pg. 5 wrote: In addition to monitoring the Ecclesiarchy - ensuring that Wars of Faith do not exceed their mandate or that its many Cardinals do not amass more power than is deemed appropriate - the Ordo Hereticus keeps a close eye on many other Imperial organisations: the Adeptus Arbites, the Space Marines and also fellow members of the Inquisition. They monitor doctrinal and physical purity, and no one is beyond their jurisdiction.
But this is blatantly false.
I am not buying for a second that the Hereticus has the right to go boss around the Adeptus Custodes. They answer to no one except their own Custodes commanders and the Emperor himself.
If the Custodes and some Hereticus agents began accusing each other of heresy, there isn't a shadow of a doubt as to who would end up face down in the mud.
Grey Knights are the SCUM of Space Marine chapters. Murder entire planetary populations because of a hint of daemons nearby. Slaughter Sisters for their blood in a huge BS moment. Draigo. Ignore all other Imperial authority but about half of the Inquisition. Murder Space Marines who even see a daemon, it's a wonder the Space Wolves haven't wiped them out.
BS about them being incorruptible, when it's clear they are.
KingmanHighborn wrote: Grey Knights are the SCUM of Space Marine chapters. Murder entire planetary populations because of a hint of daemons nearby. Slaughter Sisters for their blood in a huge BS moment. Draigo. Ignore all other Imperial authority but about half of the Inquisition. Murder Space Marines who even see a daemon, it's a wonder the Space Wolves haven't wiped them out.
BS about them being incorruptible, when it's clear they are.
Do you know anything about Chaos? The needs of the many outweigh the rights of the few. If they let daemonic taint fester, it will eventually a full-blown daemonic invasion that could potentially consume entire sectors of space, resulting in untold billions dying and threatening the security of the Imperium. Hell they Grey Knights are part of the reason why the Imperium even still exists, and hasn't fallen to daemonic invasion erupting from deep inside its own space. Without the Grey Knights, there is no Imperium at all.
1) The claim that the Sisters are not used to bring Space Marines to heel.
2) The claim that Inquisitors have no authority over Space Marines.
Except your first and last quote reference the Ordo Hereticus, not the Sisters. At no point did you have to own even a single Sisters of Battle figure to play with Codex Witch Hunters or the Ordo Hereticus.
And the second quote I already addressed. You claimed they were the "go to", which is not substantiated by anything you quoted. In fact, I quoted it in my post. Just because they can doesn't mean they are the first or even second choice. It took 9 Orders to kill a couple hundred Red Corsairs according to the latest Sisters codex. Not very cost effective when a few hundred Grey Knights or Space Marines can do the same thing, only better.
The idea of the Sisters being the first choice for fighting renegade Space Marines has no substantiation in the fluff. The idea that the Sisters sometimes challenge Space Marines, is substantiated in the fluff. Of course, if there are some renegade Space Marines floating around ruining your part of space and you have a bunch of Sisters of Battle not doing anything, then you toss them at the Space Marines and hope you can salvage enough of the wrecked gear to equip their replacements. But if you can get some good guy Space Marines or Grey Knights on the case, all the better. After all, Space Marines come as part of a fully functional, self-contained, self-supporting combat unit, where as the Sisters of Battle show up with some short ranged weaponry and a lot of attitude.
KingmanHighborn wrote: Grey Knights are the SCUM of Space Marine chapters. Murder entire planetary populations because of a hint of daemons nearby. Slaughter Sisters for their blood in a huge BS moment. Draigo. Ignore all other Imperial authority but about half of the Inquisition. Murder Space Marines who even see a daemon, it's a wonder the Space Wolves haven't wiped them out.
BS about them being incorruptible, when it's clear they are.
This is only true cos of Wardian BS. All that new fluff should be taken outside and shot. The Old fluff is quite awesome tbh.
KingmanHighborn wrote: Grey Knights are the SCUM of Space Marine chapters. Murder entire planetary populations because of a hint of daemons nearby. Slaughter Sisters for their blood in a huge BS moment. Draigo. Ignore all other Imperial authority but about half of the Inquisition. Murder Space Marines who even see a daemon, it's a wonder the Space Wolves haven't wiped them out.
BS about them being incorruptible, when it's clear they are.
This is only true cos of Wardian BS. All that new fluff should be taken outside and shot. The Old fluff is quite awesome tbh.
Couldn't agree more. As the saying goes "Draigo: Because Matt Ward Couldn't Resurrect Guilliman". A good way to grimdark the Grey Knights is that they are actually just mindless, brainwashed slaves to the Inquisition. The whole thing about the Wardian Grey Knights is that it takes away from the whole "Space Marines Are Humanity's Last Hope" thing.
Well technically regular Space Marines don't fight rebelious Chapter very often for fear of corruption like in the Badab War. It has been stated multiple time that the most traumtic thing a Space Marine can do is fight a former bretheren. Many choose to honor old friendship than their vows to protect The Imperium. Especially if the rebelious Chapter is transgressing the Codex or an inquisitorial order. Of course Grey Knights, Minautors or Space Sharks are your best options, but if you need to tackle a full Chapter. They are going to need some help.
Sisters have the big advantages of having basically the same gear (with some fancy options like mag boot missing on their armour) and similar training (if not better I believe). Put five to six thousand of them against a full Chapter and the Imperium is probably going to triumph unless their fortress or ships prove to to much.
Or just send a gak ton of guards with full regiment of heavy tanks. That Should make things easy.
Lol and told you where to find it in GW printed fluff. Again, since you may have missed it, you can find the information in the 5th Ed. SM Codex.
A Chapter Master can only be compelled by the Emperor, High Lords, or an assembly of his peers.
Actually the DIRECT QUOTE is.. "A chapter Master is a peer of the Imperium, with authority to act as he wishes according to his own judgement, and answerable only to others of his rank"
So I suppose the question is do they mean chapter masters are answerable, on paper, only to other chapter masters, or are they answerable to anyone of equivilant peerage? (whatever that means)
Thank you. FInally, someone reinforces my point. The peer of a chapter master is considered to be Inquisitor, Rogue Trader, or other Chapter Master.
The Space Wolves Fortress-Monastery is the second-best fortress in the galaxy. Even Rogal Dorn saw it and was all like "good 'nuff", and apparently he never complemented any fortresses that he didn't build, so that was high praise coming from him. The void shields alone are so advanced that the technology to build them isn't even around anymore.
I'm sorry but I disagree with your "second-best fortress is the galaxy" statement. I do believe it's safe to say Terra's Imperial palace is the best fortress in the galaxy but there are many contenders for second place. Whilst it may have some of the most advanced Void Shields and Laser batteries around, I don't believe it's the second most defensible fortress out there. Lexicanum states that is "perhaps the greatest fortress" since Terra but I believe there are better candidates for second place.
For a start, the Iron warriors build countless fortresses across the galaxy and they're renowned for their skill in these matters - I'd say their Fortress World of Medrengard almost rivals Terra itself and so therefore in my humble opinion, it would take second place. If you're looking at single fortresses though and disqualify entire fortress worlds as options, then I'd suggest other potential contenders for second place such as the Deathwatch Fortress of Erioch and the Grey Knight Fortress Monastery, the Citadel of Titan. The Phalanx and Rock could also have shots at second place, hell, the Rock survived a bombardment which destroyed Caliban around it. Loathe as I am to say it, even the Ultramarine Fortress of Hera is a contender, it was built at the height of the Crusade (and therefore most likely has some of the best tech too) and is made up of multiple domes which are each citadels in their own right.
These are just some options off of the top of my head and I'd pick all of them over the Fang.
Highest praise I've found for the Fortress of Hera:
The Ultramarines' citadel is considered a wonder of engineering constructed by the hand of the Chapter's own Primarch Roboute Guilliman during the bygone era of the Great Crusade.
I've never seen nor heard of a claim that the Fortress of Hera was anywhere close to the second best fortress in the galaxy.
Highest praise I've found for the Citadel of Titan:
It is a forbidding sight that welcomes no visitors and brooks no trespass.
I've never read nor heard of praise for the Citadel of Titan, and this was the closest to it that I could find.
Highest praise I've found for Watch Fortress Erioch:
A brutal mass of armoured basilica, domes, and spires, the fortress bristles with enough armament to rival a sizable battlegroup of Imperial warships,
Nowhere has it been claimed that it was the greatest fortress in the galaxy outside of Terra.
The Phalanx and the Rock are space Stations, not fortresses. While Aldurkh was once a mighty fortress, having powerful void shields does not make it the best fortress in the galaxy. Fortress worlds do not count either, as fortress worlds are fortresses of a whole other class.
Your opinion regarding the Fang does not matter when faced with no evidence to support. The Fang is widely considered to be the best fortress outside of the Imperial Palace, and even Rogal Dorn, the harshest fortress builder imaginable, gave it his approval and praise.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shidank wrote: Honestly, it surprised me how much damage the Thousand Sons did to the Fang considering how epic it was purported to be.
If a bunch of "sissy wizards" can put serious bruising on your house while your Lion bro's castle gets blasted harder than Alderaan and shrugs it off like it's no big deal, there's a problem.
I hope you realize that the Fang only had a single Great Company (~125 Marines) and some Dreadnoughts to defend it. Against like 30x their number in Thousand Sons.
Lol and told you where to find it in GW printed fluff. Again, since you may have missed it, you can find the information in the 5th Ed. SM Codex.
A Chapter Master can only be compelled by the Emperor, High Lords, or an assembly of his peers.
Actually the DIRECT QUOTE is.. "A chapter Master is a peer of the Imperium, with authority to act as he wishes according to his own judgement, and answerable only to others of his rank"
So I suppose the question is do they mean chapter masters are answerable, on paper, only to other chapter masters, or are they answerable to anyone of equivilant peerage? (whatever that means)
Thank you. FInally, someone reinforces my point. The peer of a chapter master is considered to be Inquisitor, Rogue Trader, or other Chapter Master.
Wow, a Rogue Trader is a Chapter Master's peer? I think that Space Marines just got knocked down a peg in my mind...
The Space Wolves Fortress-Monastery is the second-best fortress in the galaxy. Even Rogal Dorn saw it and was all like "good 'nuff", and apparently he never complemented any fortresses that he didn't build, so that was high praise coming from him. The void shields alone are so advanced that the technology to build them isn't even around anymore.
I'm sorry but I disagree with your "second-best fortress is the galaxy" statement. I do believe it's safe to say Terra's Imperial palace is the best fortress in the galaxy but there are many contenders for second place. Whilst it may have some of the most advanced Void Shields and Laser batteries around, I don't believe it's the second most defensible fortress out there. Lexicanum states that is "perhaps the greatest fortress" since Terra but I believe there are better candidates for second place.
For a start, the Iron warriors build countless fortresses across the galaxy and they're renowned for their skill in these matters - I'd say their Fortress World of Medrengard almost rivals Terra itself and so therefore in my humble opinion, it would take second place. If you're looking at single fortresses though and disqualify entire fortress worlds as options, then I'd suggest other potential contenders for second place such as the Deathwatch Fortress of Erioch and the Grey Knight Fortress Monastery, the Citadel of Titan. The Phalanx and Rock could also have shots at second place, hell, the Rock survived a bombardment which destroyed Caliban around it. Loathe as I am to say it, even the Ultramarine Fortress of Hera is a contender, it was built at the height of the Crusade (and therefore most likely has some of the best tech too) and is made up of multiple domes which are each citadels in their own right.
These are just some options off of the top of my head and I'd pick all of them over the Fang.
Highest praise I've found for the Fortress of Hera:
The Ultramarines' citadel is considered a wonder of engineering constructed by the hand of the Chapter's own Primarch Roboute Guilliman during the bygone era of the Great Crusade.
I've never seen nor heard of a claim that the Fortress of Hera was anywhere close to the second best fortress in the galaxy. (Unless we have accounts of fortresses under siege, we have to judge them by Tech and size. The Fortress of Hera was built around the same time as the Fang and so should have the same 'advanced' technology. The difference is that it was built by the Ultramarines who had a lot more resources to dedicate to construction at the time and so the Fortress of Hera was made up of multiple citadels (at least two) whereas the Fang is only slightly larger than a standard Citadel.)
Highest praise I've found for the Citadel of Titan:
It is a forbidding sight that welcomes no visitors and brooks no trespass.
I've never read nor heard of praise for the Citadel of Titan, and this was the closest to it that I could find. (I have no canon to support my claim on this but it stands to reason that when Malcador had it constructed he would have asked for Dorn's council in its design, if not getting Dorn to design it from the ground up. Considering they were both in Sol at the time looking towards Terra's defences, I believe it's highly likely that Dorn designed the Citadel of Titan.)
Highest praise I've found for Watch Fortress Erioch:
A brutal mass of armoured basilica, domes, and spires, the fortress bristles with enough armament to rival a sizable battlegroup of Imperial warships,
Nowhere has it been claimed that it was the greatest fortress in the galaxy outside of Terra. (Since you're dismissing space-stations, then this would also be discounted.)
The Phalanx and the Rock are space Stations, not fortresses. (The Rock was a Fortress first and only became mobile later - as a Fortress it survived the destruction of an entire planet after bombardment and a warp storm that tore the planet to bits around it. That is significant.) While Aldurkh was once a mighty fortress, having powerful void shields does not make it the best fortress in the galaxy. Fortress worlds do not count either, as fortress worlds are fortresses of a whole other class.
Your opinion regarding the Fang does not matter when faced with no evidence to support. The Fang is widely considered to be the best fortress outside of the Imperial Palace, and even Rogal Dorn, the harshest fortress builder imaginable, gave it his approval and praise.(The only praise I've seen is Lexicanum's "perhaps the greatest fortress" and that's not exactly roaring approval. Also, I've been looking here - http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Quotes_Space_Marines and yet I can't find the quote supposedly from Dorn giving the Fang his approval)
My responses above in red.
Whilst I agree Rogal Dorn is a good judge of Fortresses, I can't seem to find the quote which says he approved of the Fang. Also, he's not exactly an unbiased Judge - even during the Crusade he didn't exactly see eye to eye with Perturabo and the Iron Warriors and he would not have praised them... especially after the heresy. The Iron Warrior Fortresses (past and present) may be contenders and yet wouldn't even be acknowledged by Dorn.
The Fang nearly fell to 2 million humans and 700 odd astartes. That's pathetic compared to the numbers that are usually thrown around in the 40k Universe. A small Ork Waagh could easily drop 100x those numbers and the Fang wouldn't have stood a chance. The defenders of a fortress are a key part of the fortress, you can't defend the Fang by saying they only had a single company there; a Fortress's usual garrison is part of the criteria (For example, what good are battlements if they're unmanned? Astartes would make better use of defensive emplacements than grots. Etc.).
1) The claim that the Sisters are not used to bring Space Marines to heel.
2) The claim that Inquisitors have no authority over Space Marines.
Except your first and last quote reference the Ordo Hereticus, not the Sisters. At no point did you have to own even a single Sisters of Battle figure to play with Codex Witch Hunters or the Ordo Hereticus.
And the second quote I already addressed. You claimed they were the "go to", which is not substantiated by anything you quoted. In fact, I quoted it in my post. Just because they can doesn't mean they are the first or even second choice. It took 9 Orders to kill a couple hundred Red Corsairs according to the latest Sisters codex. Not very cost effective when a few hundred Grey Knights or Space Marines can do the same thing, only better.
The idea of the Sisters being the first choice for fighting renegade Space Marines has no substantiation in the fluff. The idea that the Sisters sometimes challenge Space Marines, is substantiated in the fluff. Of course, if there are some renegade Space Marines floating around ruining your part of space and you have a bunch of Sisters of Battle not doing anything, then you toss them at the Space Marines and hope you can salvage enough of the wrecked gear to equip their replacements. But if you can get some good guy Space Marines or Grey Knights on the case, all the better. After all, Space Marines come as part of a fully functional, self-contained, self-supporting combat unit, where as the Sisters of Battle show up with some short ranged weaponry and a lot of attitude.
At least this has been put to rest. I remember the first Sisters battle against Space Marines I ever read and thinking, "How are these women useful to anyone?"
It's all at the discretion of the writer, I suppose.
Considering Titan is part of the Sol System, it would be the second most fortified, well, anything. After the Horus Heresy, the Imperium pretty much turned the entire solar system into a weapon filled with seemingly endless torpedoes and lances.
dusara217 wrote: Wow, a Rogue Trader is a Chapter Master's peer? I think that Space Marines just got knocked down a peg in my mind...
Nothing suggests that this is the case.
They are often compared (along with Inquisitors) because they are among the most independent beings in the Imperium. Very few people have the legal authority (not power, authority) to boss them around or bully them.
However, they do not really have equal power.
Each of them has loads in their own way, but it's not always that comparable.
dusara217 wrote: Wow, a Rogue Trader is a Chapter Master's peer? I think that Space Marines just got knocked down a peg in my mind...
Nothing suggests that this is the case.
Pretty sure this is just on paper to make Rogue Trader characters seem more interesting. I HIGHLY doubt a Chapter Master would entertain such a notion.
Rogue Traders are given certain rights in their Charters to do things that normal citizens of the Imperium cannot do (such as own starships or trade with Xenos). These Charters are passed down through the lines of the Trade Dynasty, and can be quite valuable, as things are added to them with new writs and charters, assigned by various Imperial officials and other worthies.
These Charters do not, in any way, put a Rogue Trader on an equal footing with a Chapter Master or an Inquisitor. A Rogue Trader who is acting outside of his or her Warrant of Trade (by, say, smuggling artifacts off of Daemon Worlds) is just as screwed if an Inquisitorial fleet catches up with them as anyone else would be.
Psienesis wrote: Rogue Traders are given certain rights in their Charters to do things that normal citizens of the Imperium cannot do (such as own starships or trade with Xenos). These Charters are passed down through the lines of the Trade Dynasty, and can be quite valuable, as things are added to them with new writs and charters, assigned by various Imperial officials and other worthies.
These Charters do not, in any way, put a Rogue Trader on an equal footing with a Chapter Master or an Inquisitor. A Rogue Trader who is acting outside of his or her Warrant of Trade (by, say, smuggling artifacts off of Daemon Worlds) is just as screwed if an Inquisitorial fleet catches up with them as anyone else would be.
If I implied that a Rogue Trader was the equal of an Inquisitor, that was my mistake.
As far as autonomy, the Rogue Trader is comparable to a Chapter Master. A Chapter Master cannot legally compel a Rogue Trader just as a Rogue Trader cannot legally compel a Chapter Master. The main difference between those two is that one is subject to the Inquisitoion while the other is not.
I think the best way to view the power of the Inqusition is that "his authority extends are far as the length of his sword" Basicly an Inquisitor has a huge amount of power in theory, but ultimatly his power extends as far as he can extend it.
BrianDavion wrote: I think the best way to view the power of the Inqusition is that "his authority extends are far as the length of his sword" Basicly an Inquisitor has a huge amount of power in theory, but ultimatly his power extends as far as he can extend it.
A profoundly insightful comment on the nature of the most powerful individuals in the Imperium. I'm sure someone with more poetry in their veins could make that into a statement on the Imperium itself.
KingmanHighborn wrote: Grey Knights are the SCUM of Space Marine chapters. Murder entire planetary populations because of a hint of daemons nearby. Slaughter Sisters for their blood in a huge BS moment. Draigo. Ignore all other Imperial authority but about half of the Inquisition. Murder Space Marines who even see a daemon, it's a wonder the Space Wolves haven't wiped them out.
BS about them being incorruptible, when it's clear they are.
Do you know anything about Chaos? The needs of the many outweigh the rights of the few. If they let daemonic taint fester, it will eventually a full-blown daemonic invasion that could potentially consume entire sectors of space, resulting in untold billions dying and threatening the security of the Imperium. Hell they Grey Knights are part of the reason why the Imperium even still exists, and hasn't fallen to daemonic invasion erupting from deep inside its own space. Without the Grey Knights, there is no Imperium at all.
Tell that the first population of Armageddon. The people rallied to stop the daemonic invasion alongside the Wolves and the Grey Knights did NOTHING until the final hours. Then they turned their guns and swords on the population they gave nearly everything to stop the Angron, they were either outright murdered, or sterilized and worked to death in concentration camps. It's BS to think they are the reason the Imperium exists. IG, Sisters, and Space Marines have fought Chaos alone without their help and won. They certainly don't need Grey Knights coming in and killing them all after they did all the real work.
So they aren't just holes, and murderers, they are self righteous cowards and glory hogs.
KingmanHighborn wrote: Grey Knights are the SCUM of Space Marine chapters. Murder entire planetary populations because of a hint of daemons nearby. Slaughter Sisters for their blood in a huge BS moment. Draigo. Ignore all other Imperial authority but about half of the Inquisition. Murder Space Marines who even see a daemon, it's a wonder the Space Wolves haven't wiped them out.
BS about them being incorruptible, when it's clear they are.
Do you know anything about Chaos? The needs of the many outweigh the rights of the few. If they let daemonic taint fester, it will eventually a full-blown daemonic invasion that could potentially consume entire sectors of space, resulting in untold billions dying and threatening the security of the Imperium. Hell they Grey Knights are part of the reason why the Imperium even still exists, and hasn't fallen to daemonic invasion erupting from deep inside its own space. Without the Grey Knights, there is no Imperium at all.
Tell that the first population of Armageddon. The people rallied to stop the daemonic invasion alongside the Wolves and the Grey Knights did NOTHING until the final hours. Then they turned their guns and swords on the population they gave nearly everything to stop the Angron, they were either outright murdered, or sterilized and worked to death in concentration camps. It's BS to think they are the reason the Imperium exists. IG, Sisters, and Space Marines have fought Chaos alone without their help and won. They certainly don't need Grey Knights coming in and killing them all after they did all the real work.
So they aren't just holes, and murderers, they are self righteous cowards and glory hogs.
Whats that? I can't hear you over the 95 or so Grey Knight corpses.
KingmanHighborn wrote: Grey Knights are the SCUM of Space Marine chapters. Murder entire planetary populations because of a hint of daemons nearby. Slaughter Sisters for their blood in a huge BS moment. Draigo. Ignore all other Imperial authority but about half of the Inquisition. Murder Space Marines who even see a daemon, it's a wonder the Space Wolves haven't wiped them out.
BS about them being incorruptible, when it's clear they are.
Do you know anything about Chaos? The needs of the many outweigh the rights of the few. If they let daemonic taint fester, it will eventually a full-blown daemonic invasion that could potentially consume entire sectors of space, resulting in untold billions dying and threatening the security of the Imperium. Hell they Grey Knights are part of the reason why the Imperium even still exists, and hasn't fallen to daemonic invasion erupting from deep inside its own space. Without the Grey Knights, there is no Imperium at all.
Tell that the first population of Armageddon. The people rallied to stop the daemonic invasion alongside the Wolves and the Grey Knights did NOTHING until the final hours. Then they turned their guns and swords on the population they gave nearly everything to stop the Angron, they were either outright murdered, or sterilized and worked to death in concentration camps. It's BS to think they are the reason the Imperium exists. IG, Sisters, and Space Marines have fought Chaos alone without their help and won. They certainly don't need Grey Knights coming in and killing them all after they did all the real work.
So they aren't just holes, and murderers, they are self righteous cowards and glory hogs.
.... the Sisters probably would have purged those citizens, too. They'd seen that which should not be seen, heard words that should never be uttered and been exposed to the corrupting influence of the Warp. It was the only logical course of action.
BrianDavion wrote: I think the best way to view the power of the Inqusition is that "his authority extends are far as the length of his sword" Basicly an Inquisitor has a huge amount of power in theory, but ultimatly his power extends as far as he can extend it.
A profoundly insightful comment on the nature of the most powerful individuals in the Imperium. I'm sure someone with more poetry in their veins could make that into a statement on the Imperium itself.
Indeed!
Psienesis wrote: .... the Sisters probably would have purged those citizens, too. They'd seen that which should not be seen, heard words that should never be uttered and been exposed to the corrupting influence of the Warp. It was the only logical course of action.
This never really made much sense to me. Surely you can't purge every planet that's ever been exposed to the Warp or you'd lose all your Fortress Worlds like Cadia and so on. Chaos raids are pretty widespread after all. All they'd have to do is show up with a few daemons or broadcoast some daemonic nonsense on the planetary vox system NL-style and the Imperium would do their work for them. The Alpha Legion would have destroyed the Imperium long ago if this were the case. Makes no sense. And the average citizen wouldn't even know about Angron or the other traitor primarchs since its all been purged from the recrods so him being a Daemon Primarch would just be the same as every other Daemon Prince - basically just some kind of daemon leader.
I don't believe we can call the Minotaurs a 'Dirt Bag' chapter because they merely perform the duty of their office. They are fulfilling their purpose as set out by the High Lords, compared to other questionable chapters who do dickish things of their own accord.
In my head, I remember something about the Marines Malevolent being declared renegades. If not, then I'd rank them pretty high on 'Dirt Bag'.
The Carcharodons allegedly fight like the Black Templars and yet no one has brought up the BT's as a potential 'Dirt Bag' chapter.
I'd also throw in the Star Phantoms as an option because they don't care about collateral damage, even Lord Solar Macharius said they were, "Unsuitable for tactical close support of other Imperial Units" because of that.
The Space Wolves Fortress-Monastery is the second-best fortress in the galaxy. Even Rogal Dorn saw it and was all like "good 'nuff", and apparently he never complemented any fortresses that he didn't build, so that was high praise coming from him. The void shields alone are so advanced that the technology to build them isn't even around anymore.
I'm sorry but I disagree with your "second-best fortress is the galaxy" statement. I do believe it's safe to say Terra's Imperial palace is the best fortress in the galaxy but there are many contenders for second place. Whilst it may have some of the most advanced Void Shields and Laser batteries around, I don't believe it's the second most defensible fortress out there. Lexicanum states that is "perhaps the greatest fortress" since Terra but I believe there are better candidates for second place.
For a start, the Iron warriors build countless fortresses across the galaxy and they're renowned for their skill in these matters - I'd say their Fortress World of Medrengard almost rivals Terra itself and so therefore in my humble opinion, it would take second place. If you're looking at single fortresses though and disqualify entire fortress worlds as options, then I'd suggest other potential contenders for second place such as the Deathwatch Fortress of Erioch and the Grey Knight Fortress Monastery, the Citadel of Titan. The Phalanx and Rock could also have shots at second place, hell, the Rock survived a bombardment which destroyed Caliban around it. Loathe as I am to say it, even the Ultramarine Fortress of Hera is a contender, it was built at the height of the Crusade (and therefore most likely has some of the best tech too) and is made up of multiple domes which are each citadels in their own right.
These are just some options off of the top of my head and I'd pick all of them over the Fang.
Highest praise I've found for the Fortress of Hera:
The Ultramarines' citadel is considered a wonder of engineering constructed by the hand of the Chapter's own Primarch Roboute Guilliman during the bygone era of the Great Crusade.
I've never seen nor heard of a claim that the Fortress of Hera was anywhere close to the second best fortress in the galaxy. (Unless we have accounts of fortresses under siege, we have to judge them by Tech and size. The Fortress of Hera was built around the same time as the Fang and so should have the same 'advanced' technology. The difference is that it was built by the Ultramarines who had a lot more resources to dedicate to construction at the time and so the Fortress of Hera was made up of multiple citadels (at least two) whereas the Fang is only slightly larger than a standard Citadel.)
Highest praise I've found for the Citadel of Titan:
It is a forbidding sight that welcomes no visitors and brooks no trespass.
I've never read nor heard of praise for the Citadel of Titan, and this was the closest to it that I could find. (I have no canon to support my claim on this but it stands to reason that when Malcador had it constructed he would have asked for Dorn's council in its design, if not getting Dorn to design it from the ground up. Considering they were both in Sol at the time looking towards Terra's defences, I believe it's highly likely that Dorn designed the Citadel of Titan.)
Highest praise I've found for Watch Fortress Erioch:
A brutal mass of armoured basilica, domes, and spires, the fortress bristles with enough armament to rival a sizable battlegroup of Imperial warships,
Nowhere has it been claimed that it was the greatest fortress in the galaxy outside of Terra. (Since you're dismissing space-stations, then this would also be discounted.)
The Phalanx and the Rock are space Stations, not fortresses. (The Rock was a Fortress first and only became mobile later - as a Fortress it survived the destruction of an entire planet after bombardment and a warp storm that tore the planet to bits around it. That is significant.) While Aldurkh was once a mighty fortress, having powerful void shields does not make it the best fortress in the galaxy. Fortress worlds do not count either, as fortress worlds are fortresses of a whole other class.
Your opinion regarding the Fang does not matter when faced with no evidence to support. The Fang is widely considered to be the best fortress outside of the Imperial Palace, and even Rogal Dorn, the harshest fortress builder imaginable, gave it his approval and praise.(The only praise I've seen is Lexicanum's "perhaps the greatest fortress" and that's not exactly roaring approval. Also, I've been looking here - http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Quotes_Space_Marines and yet I can't find the quote supposedly from Dorn giving the Fang his approval)
My responses above in red.
Whilst I agree Rogal Dorn is a good judge of Fortresses, I can't seem to find the quote which says he approved of the Fang. Also, he's not exactly an unbiased Judge - even during the Crusade he didn't exactly see eye to eye with Perturabo and the Iron Warriors and he would not have praised them... especially after the heresy. The Iron Warrior Fortresses (past and present) may be contenders and yet wouldn't even be acknowledged by Dorn.
The Fang nearly fell to 2 million humans and 700 odd astartes. That's pathetic compared to the numbers that are usually thrown around in the 40k Universe. A small Ork Waagh could easily drop 100x those numbers and the Fang wouldn't have stood a chance. The defenders of a fortress are a key part of the fortress, you can't defend the Fang by saying they only had a single company there; a Fortress's usual garrison is part of the criteria (For example, what good are battlements if they're unmanned? Astartes would make better use of defensive emplacements than grots. Etc.).
Let me emphasize to you, THE FANG WAS HELD BY NO MORE THAN 100 ASTARTES AND SOME SERFS (not even a full Company), it's a wonder it's even still standing. There was a reason that Magnus drew over 90% of the Space Wolves over to the other side of the galaxy, and it's that if the standard garrison was there, then Magnus's chance of victory would be zero, zip, zilch, nonexistent.
Fortress of Hera was built at the same time, yes, and by the Ultramarines, who have better supply lines, yes, BUT, in the Codex Space Wolves, it says that Asaheim is rich with precious minerals, such as Adamantium, which were used in the construction of the Fang. Better supply lines do not make a better fortress, it is the architect that does that. Also, the same time does not mean the same tech. For instance, Russ may have discovered a cache of Archaeotech in a neighboring solar system, and used this cache as the blueprints for his fortress's defences, while Rouboute was just going off of standard Imperial weaponry and the like (we really don't know, but the Fortress of Hera has never been stated to be using tech that is no longer capable of being built by the Imperium, to the best of my knowledge). Also, the Fang, on any standard day, will have at least several hundred Space Marines defending it, as well as innumerable wolves, as the Space Wolves have the manpower to spare. Also, when defending against a Primarch (basically the most genius thing in all of human history), chances of victory decrease massively.
BTW, The Fang is composed of miles of underground catacombs, as well as the areas around the mountain it is composed of (which is the tallest mountain on an entire continent of mountains), and is at least several miles high and wide in just the mountain alone. It is at least as big, if not bigger, than the Fortress of Hera.
My information on the Fang comes directly from Codex:Space Wolves, 7th Edition and 5th Edition, as well as some from 6th Edition (though I didn't really delve too deeply into the 6th Ed version).
I did not discount Watch Fortress Erioch, as it is no longer a Space Station, by all intents and purposes. It used to be a Space Station, but is now a fortress in its own right.
On the Citadel of Titan: Just because it had Dorn's advice in construction does not make it the greatest thing imaginable. Dorn bent his full will into making the Imperial Palace impenetrable, but that does not mean that every fortress is going to receive as much attention and as much care in construction. In fact, Perturabo was PROBABLY a better fortress-builder than Dorn, as Perturabo's true passion was in building, not destroying. Considering this discussion is about 40k, not 30k, however, Iron Warriors fortresses don't count. Or, at least, not unless you can find an Iron Warriors fortress outside of Medrengard.
Aldurukh was originally constructed with Feudal World tech, and its backbone lies in Feudal World construction. While it has been upgraded with Imperial-standard void shields in copious quantities, void shields alone do not make the Rock the best fortress in the galaxy. Also, the Fang has DAoT-level void shields (I would assume, as it was built with non-standard Imperial tech), so what makes you think that the Fang would not survive the destruction of Fenris? The Fang survived orbital bombardment for weeks from literally an entire Imperial Navy battlefleet, with battleships capable of destroying a planet with their standard orbital bombardments should they all fire at the same time (the DA Fleet did the same in 30k, though it actually just "cracked" the planet, while the RP finished the job), and the Fang's Void Shields did not even falter a single time.
dusara217 wrote: Wow, a Rogue Trader is a Chapter Master's peer? I think that Space Marines just got knocked down a peg in my mind...
Nothing suggests that this is the case.
They are often compared (along with Inquisitors) because they are among the most independent beings in the Imperium. Very few people have the legal authority (not power, authority) to boss them around or bully them.
However, they do not really have equal power.
Each of them has loads in their own way, but it's not always that comparable.
I said that in response to what somebody had said, which listed Rogue Traders as a Chapter Master's peers. But, if you want, you can just take it out of context and make me look like an idiot, I honestly don't really care.
KingmanHighborn wrote: Grey Knights are the SCUM of Space Marine chapters. Murder entire planetary populations because of a hint of daemons nearby. Slaughter Sisters for their blood in a huge BS moment. Draigo. Ignore all other Imperial authority but about half of the Inquisition. Murder Space Marines who even see a daemon, it's a wonder the Space Wolves haven't wiped them out.
BS about them being incorruptible, when it's clear they are.
Do you know anything about Chaos? The needs of the many outweigh the rights of the few. If they let daemonic taint fester, it will eventually a full-blown daemonic invasion that could potentially consume entire sectors of space, resulting in untold billions dying and threatening the security of the Imperium. Hell they Grey Knights are part of the reason why the Imperium even still exists, and hasn't fallen to daemonic invasion erupting from deep inside its own space. Without the Grey Knights, there is no Imperium at all.
Tell that the first population of Armageddon. The people rallied to stop the daemonic invasion alongside the Wolves and the Grey Knights did NOTHING until the final hours. Then they turned their guns and swords on the population they gave nearly everything to stop the Angron, they were either outright murdered, or sterilized and worked to death in concentration camps. It's BS to think they are the reason the Imperium exists. IG, Sisters, and Space Marines have fought Chaos alone without their help and won. They certainly don't need Grey Knights coming in and killing them all after they did all the real work.
So they aren't just holes, and murderers, they are self righteous cowards and glory hogs.
.... the Sisters probably would have purged those citizens, too. They'd seen that which should not be seen, heard words that should never be uttered and been exposed to the corrupting influence of the Warp. It was the only logical course of action.
Not even close to the only logical course of action. For instance, have Psykers check out large amounts of Imperial Citizenry to ensure there is no Chaos corruption. Or, and this is just spitballing here, literally anything but exterminate an entire population with no evidence whatsoever of Chaos Corruption
KingmanHighborn wrote: Grey Knights are the SCUM of Space Marine chapters. Murder entire planetary populations because of a hint of daemons nearby. Slaughter Sisters for their blood in a huge BS moment. Draigo. Ignore all other Imperial authority but about half of the Inquisition. Murder Space Marines who even see a daemon, it's a wonder the Space Wolves haven't wiped them out.
BS about them being incorruptible, when it's clear they are.
Do you know anything about Chaos? The needs of the many outweigh the rights of the few. If they let daemonic taint fester, it will eventually a full-blown daemonic invasion that could potentially consume entire sectors of space, resulting in untold billions dying and threatening the security of the Imperium. Hell they Grey Knights are part of the reason why the Imperium even still exists, and hasn't fallen to daemonic invasion erupting from deep inside its own space. Without the Grey Knights, there is no Imperium at all.
Tell that the first population of Armageddon. The people rallied to stop the daemonic invasion alongside the Wolves and the Grey Knights did NOTHING until the final hours. Then they turned their guns and swords on the population they gave nearly everything to stop the Angron, they were either outright murdered, or sterilized and worked to death in concentration camps. It's BS to think they are the reason the Imperium exists. IG, Sisters, and Space Marines have fought Chaos alone without their help and won. They certainly don't need Grey Knights coming in and killing them all after they did all the real work.
So they aren't just holes, and murderers, they are self righteous cowards and glory hogs.
Whats that? I can't hear you over the 95 or so Grey Knight corpses.
To me, the Grey Knights are the Uriel Ventrice of Chapters. Basically, their glory hounds who get gak done while they hog all the glory.
Not even close to the only logical course of action. For instance, have Psykers check out large amounts of Imperial Citizenry to ensure there is no Chaos corruption. Or, and this is just spitballing here, literally anything but exterminate an entire population with no evidence whatsoever of Chaos Corruption
"Some may question your right to destroy ten billion people. Those who understand realise that you have no right to let them live!"
dusara217 wrote: Wow, a Rogue Trader is a Chapter Master's peer? I think that Space Marines just got knocked down a peg in my mind...
Nothing suggests that this is the case.
They are often compared (along with Inquisitors) because they are among the most independent beings in the Imperium. Very few people have the legal authority (not power, authority) to boss them around or bully them.
However, they do not really have equal power.
Each of them has loads in their own way, but it's not always that comparable.
I said that in response to what somebody had said, which listed Rogue Traders as a Chapter Master's peers. But, if you want, you can just take it out of context and make me look like an idiot, I honestly don't really care.
Oh, sorry! I'd misunderstood :(
My comment was mostly aimed at the first guy, not you.
Because in practise, because of the huge variations in RT and Inq power, it can be very hard to compare them to anything else: some RT literally could destroy entire space marine chapter from space, with huge fleets, strange weapons and allies, and hordes of IG and personal troops.
However, some of them are basically 1 ship, zero savings, and no allies. 10 marines could take these down without too much efforts, if they could get into the ship.
Basically, in direct combat, there is no difference between a mighty rogue trader and a mighty inquisitor (actually, the RT generally has more direct spaceship and huge planetary murder kinda stuff handy, while the Inq can get more power with some preparation (technically, there is no legal limit to how much he can have), and generally has more elite troops and spies handy). An inquisitor lord and a major dynasty head both have enormous military and esoteric resources, although the RT might be richer and the Inq have better spies.
BrianDavion wrote: I think the best way to view the power of the Inqusition is that "his authority extends are far as the length of his sword" Basicly an Inquisitor has a huge amount of power in theory, but ultimatly his power extends as far as he can extend it.
A profoundly insightful comment on the nature of the most powerful individuals in the Imperium. I'm sure someone with more poetry in their veins could make that into a statement on the Imperium itself.
Indeed!
Psienesis wrote: .... the Sisters probably would have purged those citizens, too. They'd seen that which should not be seen, heard words that should never be uttered and been exposed to the corrupting influence of the Warp. It was the only logical course of action.
This never really made much sense to me. Surely you can't purge every planet that's ever been exposed to the Warp or you'd lose all your Fortress Worlds like Cadia and so on. Chaos raids are pretty widespread after all. All they'd have to do is show up with a few daemons or broadcoast some daemonic nonsense on the planetary vox system NL-style and the Imperium would do their work for them. The Alpha Legion would have destroyed the Imperium long ago if this were the case. Makes no sense. And the average citizen wouldn't even know about Angron or the other traitor primarchs since its all been purged from the recrods so him being a Daemon Primarch would just be the same as every other Daemon Prince - basically just some kind of daemon leader.
After seeing a major daemonic Insursion, especially with the baleful energies and fell powers unleashed with the traitor primarch, I'm just not surprised at their reaction. It's a bit excessive, and very brutal, but understandable.
Personally, I'd have tossed all of those men in front of a hive fleet or something. have them die, but at least for a purpose.
Well the Grey Knights were not only partly responsible for the execution of thousand of guardsmen and PDF troopers who fought in the war, but also for the destruction of reinforcement ships that were on their way there and outpost who detected their ships while they were comming to Armageddon. That's one of the reason the Grey Knights are perceived has D-Bag.
Not reinforcement ships, the fleeing vessels carrying potentially-contaminated personnel and cargo that the Space Wolves allowed to flee hither and yon.
Any world those ships went to was summarily subject to Exterminatus.
Psienesis wrote: Not reinforcement ships, the fleeing vessels carrying potentially-contaminated personnel and cargo that the Space Wolves allowed to flee hither and yon.
Any world those ships went to was summarily subject to Exterminatus.
That's the Space Wolves' fault.
Well that's the problem, the Wolves never look at the bigger picture.
Re the Fortress of Hera, I doubt very much it's all that great it's worth nothing that the defensive rebouts chosen in the battle of Mcragge where the polar fortresses. PRESUMABLY, those are the "toughest nuts to crack" on Mcragge.
EngulfedObject wrote: This never really made much sense to me. Surely you can't purge every planet that's ever been exposed to the Warp or you'd lose all your Fortress Worlds like Cadia and so on. Chaos raids are pretty widespread after all. All they'd have to do is show up with a few daemons or broadcoast some daemonic nonsense on the planetary vox system NL-style and the Imperium would do their work for them. The Alpha Legion would have destroyed the Imperium long ago if this were the case. Makes no sense. And the average citizen wouldn't even know about Angron or the other traitor primarchs since its all been purged from the recrods so him being a Daemon Primarch would just be the same as every other Daemon Prince - basically just some kind of daemon leader.
After seeing a major daemonic Insursion, especially with the baleful energies and fell powers unleashed with the traitor primarch, I'm just not surprised at their reaction. It's a bit excessive, and very brutal, but understandable.
Personally, I'd have tossed all of those men in front of a hive fleet or something. have them die, but at least for a purpose.
Yea but you'd do that to each and every system that's been exposed to daemonic incursions? Don't you think the Imperium would be rapidly depopulated in strategically vital positions? Not to mention it'd be a massive waste of resources to basically fight yourself. You already have the Inquistion to root out corruption, you don't need them if you just want to kill your entire population indiscriminately.
Psienesis wrote:
The Sisters are also the go-to for taking out errant Chapters.
This has never been the case.
Other Space Marine Chapters and /or the Grey Knights have been the typical force called to take errant Space Marine Chapters to task. Has that meant that the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition have not tried to use SIsters to do it? Sure. And it ends up poorly for them as often as not.
The only fluff blurb that ever suggested that was in a Rogue Trader rulebook sidebar. And that was back when the Sisters were just galactic busybodies, and when Space Marines still supposedly worshipped the Imperial Cult. It has never been mentioned since then and for good reason. The closest the fluff gets to suggesting the Sisters are used against Space Marines is the Codex: Witchhunters line of "challenging Renegade Space Marine chapters" but provides no context beyond that which would suggest they are the "go to". It's simple Sister Fanon, lacking a reasonable causal relationship. "Because the Sisters will fight renegade Space Marines, it must mean they are the first choice." No, that's not how logic works, lol.
Meanwhile, when the fluff talks about Space Marines who have gone renegade, this is how it works.
Renegades:
Flame Falcons - Destroyed by Grey Knights
Relictors - 4 Chapters of Space Marines, then later, Grey Knights.
Badab War - Space Marines
Crimson Slaughter - Space Marines
Meanwhile, the Sisters glorious litany of self-provoked offensive actions against Space Marines:
Sons of Malice - lost horribly. Even worse, the sons of Malice weren't even renegades until they were attacked.
Space Wolves - lost. Again, the Space Wolves weren't renegades, this was more galactic busybodying by the Ecclesiarchy.
Just because they've done it occassionaly in the fluff doesn't make them the "go to" option. The Sisters are shock troops and religious enforcers, nothing more. They are also single-minded and unqestioning, meaning they can be easily steered in whatever direction an amibitious and clever Inquisitor or Cardinal can convince them is heretical. This is why they end up being routinely complicit in stealing Xenos artifacts, or foolishly attacking Space Marines. The Ecclesiarchy is the 40K universe's poke at the dangers of unquestioning belief and the consequences of reactionary action by religious zealots. The Sisters of Battle aren't used to attack Space Marines. That woud be silly. Space Marines are superior to Sisters of Battle in every way, from biology, to training, to arsenal. What the Sisters of Battle will do, is attack Space Marines if you convince them it's the correct thing to do, because they don't stop to consider consequences.
Nope, The Sisters of Battle are an Inquisitor's first choice in destroying a renegade Space Marine Chapter. They're the only Force in the Imperium Crazy Loyal enough to challenge Space Marines in a fight. Citadel Journal 49 laid it all out in the Ordo Hereticus Strike Force, which was written during 3rd edition. The Sisters of Battle led by an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor launch a surprise attack using Drop Pods and Imperial Navy Strike Cruisers, in an effort to eliminate the Chapters leadership. Space Marines aren't asked to attack their fellow Brothers, unless they have blatantly fallen to Chaos.
minotaurs. ally killing bastards
possibly grey knights thanks to the inquisition
the space sharks just feth up the imperiums enemies very well,
marines malevolent are just asses who do their job.
i wouldn't say soul drinkers are dirt bags, just kind of eh.
Brennonjw wrote: minotaurs. ally killing bastards
possibly grey knights thanks to the inquisition
the space sharks just feth up the imperiums enemies very well,
marines malevolent are just asses who do their job.
i wouldn't say soul drinkers are dirt bags, just kind of eh.
Thing is the Minotaurs are doing exactly what they've been created and ordered to do. They follow the express instruction of the High Lords, they are simply a tool. I don't believe the tool should be blamed for the actions the wielder forces them to do.
Whereas the Dark Angels -- they commit acts of friendly-fire and heresies to protect their secret. Their subsequent actions have been worse than the original secret! I'd say the Dark Angels are worse than the Minotaurs.
Otto Weston wrote: I don't believe we can call the Minotaurs a 'Dirt Bag' chapter because they merely perform the duty of their office. They are fulfilling their purpose as set out by the High Lords, compared to other questionable chapters who do dickish things of their own accord.
In my head, I remember something about the Marines Malevolent being declared renegades. If not, then I'd rank them pretty high on 'Dirt Bag'.
The Carcharodons allegedly fight like the Black Templars and yet no one has brought up the BT's as a potential 'Dirt Bag' chapter.
I'd also throw in the Star Phantoms as an option because they don't care about collateral damage, even Lord Solar Macharius said they were, "Unsuitable for tactical close support of other Imperial Units" because of that.
Ok, maybe it was Karma for the Star Phantoms
I still feel like the Minotaurs are dirtbags, regardless of whether or not they're the High Lords of Terra's hounds. Mainly because of what they did to the Lamenters, who were fighting for the wrong side but still loyal. And because those guys have terrible luck and I feel bad for them.
Brennonjw wrote: minotaurs. ally killing bastards
possibly grey knights thanks to the inquisition
the space sharks just feth up the imperiums enemies very well,
marines malevolent are just asses who do their job.
i wouldn't say soul drinkers are dirt bags, just kind of eh.
Yea pretty much how I feel I think.
J3f wrote: Nope, The Sisters of Battle are an Inquisitor's first choice in destroying a renegade Space Marine Chapter. They're the only Force in the Imperium Crazy Loyal enough to challenge Space Marines in a fight. Citadel Journal 49 laid it all out in the Ordo Hereticus Strike Force, which was written during 3rd edition. The Sisters of Battle led by an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor launch a surprise attack using Drop Pods and Imperial Navy Strike Cruisers, in an effort to eliminate the Chapters leadership. Space Marines aren't asked to attack their fellow Brothers, unless they have blatantly fallen to Chaos.
Drop Pod assault by non-Astartes against Astartes? Really? Doesn't sound like a plan but I'll not question the fluff validity.
Space Wolves, by dooming all of humanity to Chaos by not following the orders of the only organizations that hold Chaos at bay (the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition).
Unit1126PLL wrote: Space Wolves, by dooming all of humanity to Chaos by not following the orders of the only organizations that hold Chaos at bay (the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition).
bah! you just want easy killing of loyal guardsmen inquisitor
You know with regards to what the Marines Malevolent did, I can actually see that as basically just a tuesday in the grimdark universe.
In the 40k Rulebook theres actually a statement:
‘There can be no bystanders in the battle for survival. Anyone who will not fight by your side is an enemy you must crush.’
I'm not saying it's right, certainly not morally, but we judge their actions with morality we've learned in our own world, not theirs. Their reality is a narrative both harsher and darker, more prone to extremes and more exacting than our own.
If I could consider chaos as an infestation, a taint, or an epidemic/pandemic in terms of something we could actually compare, and I further consider the blinkered uncompromising nature of the imperium as they turn away from and try as hard as they can "not" to understand it's spread, it's symptoms or any possible search for a cure, then at that point I can also completely justify (by the imperial blinkered standards) what the Grey Knights were doing to the people they believed exposed to chaos taint when the Space Wolves stopped them as well. The Space Wolves actions could be construed as the very thing that gets everyone killed by ebola/chaos flu, and in comparing real situations are exactly the opposite of the people we would ever want or allow to be in charge of our own CDC.
My point really is that the extreme measures in the imperium are that of a society that does not try to "understand" chaos, they simply exterminate it. That's the way the whole grimdark universe has been written. Judging by our own more moral realistic standards, doesn't really feel very compelling in regards to a truly dark setting.
Now if you wanna talk about the Dark Angels being dirt bags, that I can see. We don't deal with the Inquisition. We disappear them. What? Were you saying something??? I'm sorry, I really can't hear you over the sound of my own team killing right now. I'll get back to you.
My Marines Malevolent would be happy to comment on these statements...if they were not busy killing the enemies of mankind..and not giving hugs to refugees, and posing for glamour shots, our combat record is impeccable (barring the macharian travesty which we bathed in xenos blood to atone for), and success speaks for itself..cries for inquisition censure and such have gone mostly unheeded...since our methods are very similar to theirs...while others in these dark days cling to outmoded notions of "brotherly conduct"..we have decided that the ends justify the means..and human survival at all costs...if that hurts the feelings of other chapters..so be it.
And as to our intensive salvage and reclamation protocols...our combat tempo is so high the levies the mechanicum send us is inadequate to our needs..so we adapt and overcome.
(note this is in the spirit of my Marines Malevolent concept, and head canon of course)
and yes they are my go to force for empire on empire battles...I love the tears of rage and rearhurtness from my marine opponents
Wyzilla wrote: The problem with the Marines Malevolent isn't just that they target civilians, they actively engage in piracy against the Adeptus Mechanicus.
Sources please..would love to read that...since i despise the tech hoarding toaster worshiping zealots.
Brennonjw wrote: why? you gonna loose me like you did with cypher?
Cy-cypher you say? Uh... we don't know who you're talking about. But you've had contact with this person you say? Okay, we will be right back, please stay put.
Wyzilla wrote: The problem with the Marines Malevolent isn't just that they target civilians, they actively engage in piracy against the Adeptus Mechanicus.
Sources please..would love to read that...since i despise the tech hoarding toaster worshiping zealots.
...That's not a good thing. That proves you're a massive slow who is actively trying to commit suicide given that the Adeptus Mechanicus is how Chapters get most of their tech and ships. Severing contact dooms you ultimately to destruction unless you mange to repair relations. But being an incompetent moron is not a positive character trait. It's in the Salamanders books. Also, instead of immediately executing a squad of Astartes heavily mutated by the Chaos Obliterator virus, he sent them to go kill the Salamanders.
In short, the Marines Malevolent will be dead in a very short period of time. Either by the Minotaurs paying them a visit or simply withering away due to a lack of any resources. They're already more or less renegades.
Still not seeing sources...other than name calling..massive slow..lol and I read the salmander book..dont remember any piracy mentions..just all the green on yellow silliness.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: Still not seeing sources...other than name calling..massive slow..lol and I read the salmander book..dont remember any piracy mentions..just all the green on yellow silliness.
I said the source. Salamanders books. The Marines Malevolent make multiple appearances, in all of which they are either donkey-caves, incompetent, or outright heretical. They previously pissed off the Admech by unknown means and now have to scavenge all their power armor, they raided a "beached" Mechanicus ship for bolters and power armor instead of returning the resources to the admech, and the Captain failed to execute marines mutated by Chaos and instead sent them on a suicide mission to attack the Salamanders. Plus the Marines Malevolent previously came to blows with another loyalist chapter.
By now they really ought to be simply declared traitors and exterminated.
I was asking for the piracy allegations, and it has not been stated anywhere as fact as to why there seems to be a problem with the Admech.
Not debating if they are paragons of marine goodness...just wanted to know if I had missed a tidbit of fluff with the admech.
Wyzilla wrote: I said the source. Salamanders books. The Marines Malevolent make multiple appearances, in all of which they are either donkey-caves, incompetent, or outright heretical. They previously pissed off the Admech by unknown means and now have to scavenge all their power armor, they raided a "beached" Mechanicus ship for bolters and power armor instead of returning the resources to the admech, and the Captain failed to execute marines mutated by Chaos and instead sent them on a suicide mission to attack the Salamanders. Plus the Marines Malevolent previously came to blows with another loyalist chapter.
By now they really ought to be simply declared traitors and exterminated.
Wow, they did all that and actively attacked the Salamanders, a First Founding chapter?
HERESY!!!!!
How have they not been declared renegade yet?
So I guess there's really no contest for the top Dirt Bag chapter.
Wyzilla wrote: I said the source. Salamanders books. The Marines Malevolent make multiple appearances, in all of which they are either donkey-caves, incompetent, or outright heretical. They previously pissed off the Admech by unknown means and now have to scavenge all their power armor, they raided a "beached" Mechanicus ship for bolters and power armor instead of returning the resources to the admech, and the Captain failed to execute marines mutated by Chaos and instead sent them on a suicide mission to attack the Salamanders. Plus the Marines Malevolent previously came to blows with another loyalist chapter.
By now they really ought to be simply declared traitors and exterminated.
Wow, they did all that and actively attacked the Salamanders, a First Founding chapter?
HERESY!!!!!
How have they not been declared renegade yet?
So I guess there's really no contest for the top Dirt Bag chapter.
Yup. They blackmailed and threatened a Salamander Captain at first, then later sent a tainted squad on a suicide mission against the Salamanders. Mind you this was an attack mounted by the Dragon Warriors, meaning the tainted squad were aiding and abetting heretics.
That was only a captain that behaved that way..could be a really rotten apple in a barrel of not so nice apples...and he may get spanked when he reports to the chapter master.
I always suspected the Vinyard was kinda a lose cannon..but hey thats just my version, not much is really known about the higher ups...they just made a good foil for the sallies in that story, and to tell the truth was a nice departure from alot of other marine stories..some actual conflict.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Space Wolves, by dooming all of humanity to Chaos by not following the orders of the only organizations that hold Chaos at bay (the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition).
bah! you just want easy killing of loyal guardsmen inquisitor
What about when the Ecclesiarchy showed up at Fenris to make sure the Emperor was being worshipped well and good instead of tribal deities Chaos, and the Fang fired at them as soon as they left Warp.
Like, the Ecclesiarchy was literally like "Anything wrong here? No? Good!" and moving along, but when they got to Fenris they said "Anything wrong here?" and instead of an answer got gigantic laser cannons to the face.
Dirtbags.
EDIT: Or the time the Inquisition was like "Go on a penitence crusade!" like they've done to several chapters in history and the Space Wolves gave them a face-full of laser fire.
The Ecclesiarchy has no jurisdiction on a Chapter homeworld. They should know better, but they can't leave well enough alone and always stick their noses where they don't belong.
It wasn't like the people of Fenris hadn't being doing the same thing for ten thousand years.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: The Ecclesiarchy has no jurisdiction on a Chapter homeworld. They should know better, but they can't leave well enough alone and always stick their noses where they don't belong.
It wasn't like the people of Fenris hadn't being doing the same thing for ten thousand years.
I will need a citation on that - IIRC, the Chapter homeworlds are only exempt from the Imperial tithe, not the Imperial state religion.
Which citation would you like? This fluff has literally existed in every edition.
Codex Imperialis: "Other civilian cults are denounced as heresy and their adherents rooted out by the Ministorum's troops, but the Space Marine Chaplains care nothing for the misguided ravings of the Ecclesiarchy and ignore the dictates of the Imperial Cult"
C:UM - "it has never been able to influence the Space Marine cults"
"Space Marine Chaplains care nothing for the ravings of the Ecclesiarchy and ignore the dictates of the Imperial Cult."
C:SM:4E - "They are not subject to Imperial rule"
C:SM:5E - "it has never been able to influence the Space Marine cults"
"Space Marine Chaplains care nothing for the ravings of the Ecclesiarchy and ignore the dictates of the Imperial Cult."
C:SM:6E - "Space Marines have never acknowledged the doctrines or religious supremacy of the Ecclesiarchy. Space Marine Chaplains care little for the ravings of the Ecclesiarch’ s priests and ignore the dictates of the Imperial Cult in favour of their own ancient traditions. While the Adeptus Ministorum has gradually extended its inf luence
throughout the galaxy, it has failed to sway the Space Marine cults"
Space Marine Chapter Planets are "governed by the Space Marines" (7th Edition Rulebook) and the Space Marines are not subject to Imperial Rule (C:SM:4E), let alone the Ecclesiarchy.
ANd the one time some Space Marines agreed to listen to the Ecclesiarchy, the gooftard in the giant Space Pope hat sent them into the Eye of Terror. So they came back and cut off his head. I mean, the fluff behind the Abyssal Crusade is atrociously bad, but such is Mango.
I will need a citation on that - IIRC, the Chapter homeworlds are only exempt from the Imperial tithe, not the Imperial state religion.
The first Space Marine Chapters were founded centuries before the development of the Imperial Cult or the Adeplus Ministorum, and with the lone exception of the Black Templars, Space Marines have never acknowledged the doctrines or religious supremacy of the Ecclesiarchy. Space Marine Chaplains care little for the ravings or the Ecclesiarch's priests and ignore the dictates of the Imperial Cult in favour of their own ancient traditions. While the Adeptus Ministorum has gradually extended its influence throughout the galaxy, it has failed to sway the Space Marine cults, which remain as stubbornly independent as they ever were in millennia past. (Codex: Space Marines. “Chaplains”. 6th Edition. p81)
AFAIK there are some sayings about what the Ecclesiarchy feel about this in the Sisters of Batte Codex (2E), but it's gone in the 6E Codex: Adepta Sororitas.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Space Wolves, by dooming all of humanity to Chaos by not following the orders of the only organizations that hold Chaos at bay (the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition).
You got to be joking right? Cadia and the other famous IG factions have held Chaos back. Several Space Marine chapters have done it, even xenos like the Eldar and New Crons' are firmly opposed to Chaos. You only doom humanity by killing everyone off on a planet when someone a planet over sneezes in a way that sounds daemonic.
Sorry, I didn't know that "Space Marines" were the same people living on the planets owned by Space Marines, and that Chaplains presided over the weekly Masses.
Forgive me for thinking it was only the chapters, and not the entire planets, that were independent.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Space Wolves, by dooming all of humanity to Chaos by not following the orders of the only organizations that hold Chaos at bay (the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition).
You got to be joking right? Cadia and the other famous IG factions have held Chaos back. Several Space Marine chapters have done it, even xenos like the Eldar and New Crons' are firmly opposed to Chaos. You only doom humanity by killing everyone off on a planet when someone a planet over sneezes in a way that sounds daemonic.
Yea, this is my position as well, it makes no sense to kill off your own planets every time there's a daemonic presence. And you need only look at the Age of Apostasy to see that the Ecclesiarchy is hardly a reliable guardian for humanity.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Sorry, I didn't know that "Space Marines" were the same people living on the planets owned by Space Marines, and that Chaplains presided over the weekly Masses.
Forgive me for thinking it was only the chapters, and not the entire planets, that were independent.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Space Wolves, by dooming all of humanity to Chaos by not following the orders of the only organizations that hold Chaos at bay (the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition).
You got to be joking right? Cadia and the other famous IG factions have held Chaos back. Several Space Marine chapters have done it, even xenos like the Eldar and New Crons' are firmly opposed to Chaos. You only doom humanity by killing everyone off on a planet when someone a planet over sneezes in a way that sounds daemonic.
Yea, this is my position as well, it makes no sense to kill off your own planets every time there's a daemonic presence. And you need only look at the Age of Apostasy to see that the Ecclesiarchy is hardly a reliable guardian for humanity.
Well, to to fair, it's not every Inquisitor's position to put Exterminatus order on planets that had Daemonic Incursions. If you look at Emil Darkahammer, who Exterminatus'd over thirty planets for far smaller things than Daemonic Incursions. If you take the words from codex: Inquisition, the Inquisition (if you'd consider it to be a unified concept) has a very diversified opinion about this:
Such forthright acts have long since polarised the opinions of other Inquisitors. Some believe Darkhammer to be a beacon of righteousness in dark times, the spiritual heir of Inquisitors Goldo and Jeriminus, who first codified the Monodomiant credo that he follows. Others consider Darkhammer to be only fractionally less destructive than the Daemons of the Warp. (Codex: Inquisition. "Emil Darkhammer". digital)
If you find a more reasonable inquisitor they'd at least consider something less... drastic, like only indentured servitude and labor camp, but without the sterilization.
Wow, this is the guy that gave the overall order for the cleansing after the First War for Armageddon? Interesting. And it seems that the Space Wolves save Armageddon from Exterminatus by their presence alone!
EngulfedObject wrote: Wow, this is the guy that gave the overall order for the cleansing after the First War for Armageddon? Interesting. And it seems that the Space Wolves save Armageddon from Exterminatus by their presence alone!
Oh no. The inquisitor who ordered the eh... sterilization thing was killed, along with a Grey Knight Grand Master. Emil Darkhammer arrived after whoever the first Inquisitor was killed, and after seeing all the mess said "screw it, this ain't worthy it" and just did whatever he does to the ones that got away.
Now Darkhammer's got into a feud with Helynna Valeria, and technically excommunicated by Helynna, but still has some influences in the Inquisition, since no other Inquisitors, nor the Grey Knights, gave a gak about the two's little grudge.
lcmiracle wrote: Oh no. The inquisitor who ordered the eh... sterilization thing was killed, along with a Grey Knight Grand Master. Emil Darkhammer arrived after whoever the first Inquisitor was killed, and after seeing all the mess said "screw it, this ain't worthy it" and just did whatever he does to the ones that got away.
Now Darkhammer's got into a feud with Helynna Valeria, and technically excommunicated by Helynna, but still has some influences in the Inquisition, since no other Inquisitors, nor the Grey Knights, gave a gak about the two's little grudge.
Oh I thought this here meant he gave the overall order:
"Only on a few occasions has Darkhammer stayed his hand, most notably after the First War of Armageddon. There, he commuted an Exterminatus order to a program of mass-execution and mind-wipe, largely because he feared retaliation from the nearby Space Wolves.[2]"
I thought the original inquisitor issued pretty much the same order since Exterminatus was never mentioned.
Also I can accept the Space Wolves to be the "Dirt Bag", if by "Dirt Bag" they are despised. They certainly aren't looked with favor by other Space Marine chapters, the Ecclesiarchy doesn't like them, and at least some Inquisitors dislike making dealings with them.
It's kinda like the Inquisition. "The Inquisition watch over the Imperium - They do not care to be watched in return" (Codex: Inquisition. "The Emperor's Hand". digital)
lcmiracle wrote: Oh no. The inquisitor who ordered the eh... sterilization thing was killed, along with a Grey Knight Grand Master. Emil Darkhammer arrived after whoever the first Inquisitor was killed, and after seeing all the mess said "screw it, this ain't worthy it" and just did whatever he does to the ones that got away.
Now Darkhammer's got into a feud with Helynna Valeria, and technically excommunicated by Helynna, but still has some influences in the Inquisition, since no other Inquisitors, nor the Grey Knights, gave a gak about the two's little grudge.
Oh I thought this here meant he gave the overall order:
"Only on a few occasions has Darkhammer stayed his hand, most notably after the First War of Armageddon. There, he commuted an Exterminatus order to a program of mass-execution and mind-wipe, largely because he feared retaliation from the nearby Space Wolves.[2]"
I thought the original inquisitor issued pretty much the same order since Exterminatus was never mentioned.
Well the fluff is a bit blurry, presumably the Codex: Inquisition revised the previous Inquisitor, Ghesmei Kysnaros' order -- from sterilization to exterminatus, just so Emil can reverse that order to what happened next. Kysnaros probably went on to plan his siege of Fenris, leaving Armageddon to Emil's hand. But there is no evidence of that either. Or, if could even be an Exterminatus order from another Inquisitor who arrived after Kysnaros left. Who knows.
1) Yes, the Cadians and other Fortress worlds around the Eye keep the direct threat of Chaos at bay. Guess which First Founding Chapter homeworld is nearby and helps out - a LOT?
The Inquisition is there to stop the more insidious Chaos cults which keep springing up all over the Galaxy.
2) IIRC Armageddon was too important a Forge World to Exterminatus, so that was never on the table; forced mindwipe, sterilization and relocation to gulags of men who had stood bravely against the tide was what the SW objected to.
3) Neither the Wolves nor the Fenrisians worship tribal gods. They worship the Emperor (Allfather to them) and Russ, with the other Primarchs (possibly) as minor deities.
4) The Wolves do not owe anybody in the Imperium obeisance. Their oaths are to the Emperor (not his representatives!) and to Russ. Not even Logan Grimnar can just order a Wolf Lord around.
5) The Inquisition is a fractured organisation at best, and while the Space Wolves certainly made some enemies in the Inquisition, they have friends among them, too.
While the SW are the most notorious and possibly the most hardline Chapter in this regard, they are far from the only space marines who resent any Inquisitorial meddling into their affairs. (Note that this is different to responding to a plea for help or a temporary requisitioning of forces.)
6) The Ecclesiarchy has no jurisdiction on Fenris or over any space wolf (or other space marine for that matter).
lcmiracle wrote: Well the fluff is a bit blurry, presumably the Codex: Inquisition revised the previous Inquisitor, Ghesmei Kysnaros' order -- from sterilization to exterminatus, just so Emil can reverse that order to what happened next. Kysnaros probably went on to plan his siege of Fenris, leaving Armageddon to Emil's hand. But there is no evidence of that either. Or, if could even be an Exterminatus order from another Inquisitor who arrived after Kysnaros left. Who knows.
Yea that can happen when the fluff is revisited and revised. Either way, Emil and the rest of his faction sound like they're doing a lot more harm than good to the Imperium.
Bran Dawri wrote: 2) IIRC Armageddon was too important a Forge World to Exterminatus, so that was never on the table; forced mindwipe, sterilization and relocation to gulags of men who had stood bravely against the tide was what the SW objected to.
Indeed, this is how I remember it as well but it seems the above fluff has retconned some of it (though I thought Armageddon was a Hive World with incredible industrial output, not a Forge World). But yea, I wouldn't consider the Space Wolves a dirt bag chapter for sticking up for civilians and IG who fought Chaos.
They're "dirt baggy" simply because they're, in a word, stupid. This is a setting where reading the wrong book, seeing the wrong symbol, or witnessing the wrong sorcerous action can get your soul devoured and replaced by a world-killing daemon...
... and all these people that the Space Wolves oh-so-nobly tried to save had been through all of the above, and more. This is an effed-up setting where effed-up things happen and, when it comes to the risk of Chaos corruption, you simply cannot take those kinds of risks. "Nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure" is Standard Operating Procedure, and with good cause.
As terrible as it is, the Inquisition was looking at the "big picture". Whether Hive World or Forge World, Armageddon produces a feth-load of stuff that gets shipped to other parts of the Imperium. If even a small percentage of the population was Chaos-tainted, that could cause immeasurable harm to the Imperium as Warp-touched goods start coming out of the manufactorums of Armageddon, whether these are cogitators that subtly change the data input into them, lasrifles that never seem to fire quite straight, tanks with reluctant or (worse) fratricidal Machine Spirits, and so on.
The Imperium cannot afford to take that sort of risk... but the one resource that they are definitely in no danger of running out of is manpower. It's far easier, safer and cost-effective to wipe out every living man, woman and child on a planet and replace them with people taken from other Hive Worlds.
Psienesis wrote: The Imperium cannot afford to take that sort of risk... but the one resource that they are definitely in no danger of running out of is manpower. It's far easier, safer and cost-effective to wipe out every living man, woman and child on a planet and replace them with people taken from other Hive Worlds.
That may be the case but if their first option was Exterminatus then that's hardly a cost effective option (you can't simply replace a planet) and is stupid on a magnitude much larger than Space Wolves stupid.
And what imperial planet doesn't have at least some Chaotic/mutant presence? I thought Chaos was like a cancer spreading through the entirely of Imperium and permeating every level of its society.
Yes, manpower is in no danger of running out but it would be if they kept going Exterminatus on their own planets while fighting wars on all fronts. You can't cull everyone on a Hive World every time a cult shows up or sooner or later you'll run out of bodies to populate it with. Plus you can't populate a planet that's been subject to Exterminatus.
Nope, The Sisters of Battle are an Inquisitor's first choice in destroying a renegade Space Marine Chapter. They're the only Force in the Imperium Crazy Loyal enough to challenge Space Marines in a fight. Citadel Journal 49 laid it all out in the Ordo Hereticus Strike Force, which was written during 3rd edition. The Sisters of Battle led by an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor launch a surprise attack using Drop Pods and Imperial Navy Strike Cruisers, in an effort to eliminate the Chapters leadership. Space Marines aren't asked to attack their fellow Brothers, unless they have blatantly fallen to Chaos.
I could see an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor doing this, but only because that's exactly what they would be expected to do.
To draw this conclusion from a limited pool of examples seems silly. The Imperium would use any and all available resources to destroy a renegade chapter. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.
It looks like we have a list of the following candidates for DirtBag:
- Borderline heretic chapter (they are ready to kill other loyalists in order to keep their own secret hidden)
- Are shunned for their suspiciously close and exclusive relations with the other Unforgiven while keeping their all doors closed to the rest of the Imperium. Secret legion building, perhaps?
- The Grey Knights know their secret, but just don't care much about it, since they've noticed that it's better to use it to blackmail them.
- Still haven't killed Khârn.
- Their duty is overruled by their obsessive personal priorities. (no matter how serious the campaign they're in with other Imperial bodies, they'll just lose their cool and leave when someone mentions about the Fallen or Cypher being spotted the other side of the galaxy)
2. Minotaurs
- The bloodhounds of the High Lords, thus having better than best authority over the other Astartes, if they don't behave. (except some strong resistance from the "1st Founding Immunity" though)
- Confirmed looting of wargear from the recently destroyed Chapters.
- Not even the Inquisitors know about their whereabouts, not to mention their motives.
- Being arrogant pricks in front of the other Astartes. One of the Minotaurs insulted Calgar in front of the other later founding Ultra-descendant marine. I reckon he didn't take it well.
3. Space Wolves
- Near outcasts of the Imperium, because they are too weird and scary - even for the Inquisition.
- Co-operation with them is troublesome to say the least. The only way to make a Space Wolf to do something is to tell him not to do it.
- There are no wolves on Fenris. Those things...
- Borderline heretic chapter (they are ready to kill other loyalists in order to keep their own secret hidden)
- Are shunned for their suspiciously close and exclusive relations with the other Unforgiven while keeping their all doors closed to the rest of the Imperium. Secret legion building, perhaps?
- The Grey Knights know their secret, but just don't care much about it, since they've noticed that it's better to use it to blackmail them.
- Still haven't killed Khârn.
- Their duty is overruled by their obsessive personal priorities. (no matter how serious the campaign they're in with other Imperial bodies, they'll just lose their cool and leave when someone mentions about the Fallen or Cypher being spotted the other side of the galaxy)
2. Minotaurs
- The bloodhounds of the High Lords, thus having better than best authority over the other Astartes, if they don't behave. (except some strong resistance from the "1st Founding Immunity" though)
- Confirmed looting of wargear from the recently destroyed Chapters.
- Not even the Inquisitors know about their whereabouts, not to mention their motives.
- Being arrogant pricks in front of the other Astartes. One of the Minotaurs insulted Calgar in front of the other later founding Ultra-descendant marine. I reckon he didn't take it well.
3. Space Wolves
- Near outcasts of the Imperium, because they are too weird and scary - even for the Inquisition.
- Co-operation with them is troublesome to say the least. The only way to make a Space Wolf to do something is to tell him not to do it.
- There are no wolves on Fenris. Those things...
The Dark Angels aren't legion building, they are a Legion. They have always been a Legion.
J3f wrote: Nope, The Sisters of Battle are an Inquisitor's first choice in destroying a renegade Space Marine Chapter. They're the only Force in the Imperium Crazy Loyal enough to challenge Space Marines in a fight. Citadel Journal 49 laid it all out in the Ordo Hereticus Strike Force, which was written during 3rd edition. The Sisters of Battle led by an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor launch a surprise attack using Drop Pods and Imperial Navy Strike Cruisers, in an effort to eliminate the Chapters leadership. Space Marines aren't asked to attack their fellow Brothers, unless they have blatantly fallen to Chaos.
I could see an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor doing this, but only because that's exactly what they would be expected to do.
To draw this conclusion from a limited pool of examples seems silly. The Imperium would use any and all available resources to destroy a renegade chapter. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.
CJ49 actually is pretty specific that the Sisters are used in an attempt to decaptiate a Chapter command suspected of treason. It actually pretty specifically says they wouldn't try it against an entire Chapter. It also very specifically says "may" do that. Not "always" or "usually" or "first option" or anything like that. Again, it's wishful thinking and selective reading that's turned into another 40K fluff myth. That's the problem with sources most people haven't read and don't have access to.
Psienesis wrote: They're "dirt baggy" simply because they're, in a word, stupid. This is a setting where reading the wrong book, seeing the wrong symbol, or witnessing the wrong sorcerous action can get your soul devoured and replaced by a world-killing daemon...
... and all these people that the Space Wolves oh-so-nobly tried to save had been through all of the above, and more. This is an effed-up setting where effed-up things happen and, when it comes to the risk of Chaos corruption, you simply cannot take those kinds of risks. "Nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure" is Standard Operating Procedure, and with good cause.
As terrible as it is, the Inquisition was looking at the "big picture". Whether Hive World or Forge World, Armageddon produces a feth-load of stuff that gets shipped to other parts of the Imperium. If even a small percentage of the population was Chaos-tainted, that could cause immeasurable harm to the Imperium as Warp-touched goods start coming out of the manufactorums of Armageddon, whether these are cogitators that subtly change the data input into them, lasrifles that never seem to fire quite straight, tanks with reluctant or (worse) fratricidal Machine Spirits, and so on.
The Imperium cannot afford to take that sort of risk... but the one resource that they are definitely in no danger of running out of is manpower. It's far easier, safer and cost-effective to wipe out every living man, woman and child on a planet and replace them with people taken from other Hive Worlds.
not only that, but I've been re-reading the Emperor's Gift and the way Logan came about it was......... there's arrogant and then there's Space Wolves. the guy knew FULL WELL what standard procedure was. but then continued to bluster and tried to order the Grey Knights that "this time would be differnt" this BTW was his biggest mistake. he didn't try to play nice with the Inqusition and bring them to his side, (instead he was pretty dismissive of them honestly) instead he basicly just tries to out bluster the GKs. problem is the decision on handling the population? wasn't the GKs call. that was the Inqusitions job. the GKs where just there to kick Angrons' ass
BlaxicanX wrote: As arrogant as Logan might have been, the Supreme Grand Master that he casually destroyed as twice as douchey.
There's a reason the Grey Knights just kind of shrugged when he got decapitated.
well yeah, in the end the whole Months of shame where two sides being stubbron. plenty of blame on both sides. I just tend to hold the wolves further as they should have known what would happen. That said I think what makes The Emperor's Gift one of my favorite 40k novels is.. no one's really the bad guy in that book, and both parties have a point.
J3f wrote: Nope, The Sisters of Battle are an Inquisitor's first choice in destroying a renegade Space Marine Chapter. They're the only Force in the Imperium Crazy Loyal enough to challenge Space Marines in a fight. Citadel Journal 49 laid it all out in the Ordo Hereticus Strike Force, which was written during 3rd edition. The Sisters of Battle led by an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor launch a surprise attack using Drop Pods and Imperial Navy Strike Cruisers, in an effort to eliminate the Chapters leadership. Space Marines aren't asked to attack their fellow Brothers, unless they have blatantly fallen to Chaos.
I could see an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor doing this, but only because that's exactly what they would be expected to do.
To draw this conclusion from a limited pool of examples seems silly. The Imperium would use any and all available resources to destroy a renegade chapter. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.
CJ49 actually is pretty specific that the Sisters are used in an attempt to decaptiate a Chapter command suspected of treason. It actually pretty specifically says they wouldn't try it against an entire Chapter. It also very specifically says "may" do that. Not "always" or "usually" or "first option" or anything like that. Again, it's wishful thinking and selective reading that's turned into another 40K fluff myth. That's the problem with sources most people haven't read and don't have access to.
Actually the word used is "often", it's preceded by a paragraph explaining that Space Marine Chapters going Renegade is rare. It's not a matter of throwing everything at the Renegade Space Marine Chapter until they keel over, it's about doing it efficiently. Even the Imperium recognizes when the cost of doing battle is too high. If the Ecclesiarchy wanted to, they could conquer the Space Wolves by declaring Exterminatus on Fenris, but it would be a massive waste of resources.
The Sisters of Battle are the most efficient way of eliminating a Renegade chapter, the Command Structure can be assumed to include the chapter's Apothecaries dooming the Chapter to a slow death. Of course the Ordo Hereticus doesn't fight fair, they take out the chapter "from the top down", it's not just a matter of Assassinating a lone Chapter Master. If they only had to kill a couple space marines the Officio Assassinorum would be a much more efficient force.
Actually the word used is "often", it's preceded by a paragraph explaining that Space Marine Chapters going Renegade is rare. It's not a matter of throwing everything at the Renegade Space Marine Chapter until they keel over, it's about doing it efficiently. Even the Imperium recognizes when the cost of doing battle is too high. If the Ecclesiarchy wanted to, they could conquer the Space Wolves by declaring Exterminatus on Fenris, but it would be a massive waste of resources.
While Ecclesiarchy has the influence to bring Exterminatus on Fenris, by way of convincing compelling to those who can, they have no authority to issue Eterminatus.
In fact, only the following four have the authority to declare Exterminatus on a world, and although it's unclear whether the not-inquisition ones have constraints on what planets they can wreck.
The order for Exterminatus is a death knell for a world, a last resort for the direst of situations. It calls for the complete eradication of all life on a planet. Such a command can only come from the highest ranks of the Imperium - a Space Marine Chapter Master, Lord High Admiral of the Imperial Navy, Lord Commander of the Imperial Guard or an Inquisitor. -- Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook. "Exterminatus". 6th Edition. print. p154
Dirt-bags? My boys in bronze, slippery sharks in grey and pretty much every othet edgy chapter FW pumps out. Don't get me wrong though, I prefer the edgy special snowflake chapters!
Actually the word used is "often", it's preceded by a paragraph explaining that Space Marine Chapters going Renegade is rare. It's not a matter of throwing everything at the Renegade Space Marine Chapter until they keel over, it's about doing it efficiently. Even the Imperium recognizes when the cost of doing battle is too high. If the Ecclesiarchy wanted to, they could conquer the Space Wolves by declaring Exterminatus on Fenris, but it would be a massive waste of resources.
While Ecclesiarchy has the influence to bring Exterminatus on Fenris, by way of convincing compelling to those who can, they have no authority to issue Eterminatus.
In fact, only the following four have the authority to declare Exterminatus on a world, and although it's unclear whether the not-inquisition ones have constraints on what planets they can wreck.
The order for Exterminatus is a death knell for a world, a last resort for the direst of situations. It calls for the complete eradication of all life on a planet. Such a command can only come from the highest ranks of the Imperium - a Space Marine Chapter Master, Lord High Admiral of the Imperial Navy, Lord Commander of the Imperial Guard or an Inquisitor.
-- Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook. "Exterminatus". 6th Edition. print. p154
Actually, a whole bunch of people can declare exterminatus: a Rogue Trader could (if his warrant said so), and I believe that in the pursuit of a War of Faith, the Ecclesiarchy can do basically whatever they want (not because they're not allowed, but because no-one could really say anything).
And I'd always believed that the Mechanicum and the Ecclesiarchy could do this to self-police, because almost no-one would be able to complain.
But these examples only really work when their representant in the High Lords of Terra's council said he'd let them.
J3f wrote: Nope, The Sisters of Battle are an Inquisitor's first choice in destroying a renegade Space Marine Chapter. They're the only Force in the Imperium Crazy Loyal enough to challenge Space Marines in a fight. Citadel Journal 49 laid it all out in the Ordo Hereticus Strike Force, which was written during 3rd edition. The Sisters of Battle led by an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor launch a surprise attack using Drop Pods and Imperial Navy Strike Cruisers, in an effort to eliminate the Chapters leadership. Space Marines aren't asked to attack their fellow Brothers, unless they have blatantly fallen to Chaos.
I could see an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor doing this, but only because that's exactly what they would be expected to do.
To draw this conclusion from a limited pool of examples seems silly. The Imperium would use any and all available resources to destroy a renegade chapter. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.
CJ49 actually is pretty specific that the Sisters are used in an attempt to decaptiate a Chapter command suspected of treason. It actually pretty specifically says they wouldn't try it against an entire Chapter. It also very specifically says "may" do that. Not "always" or "usually" or "first option" or anything like that. Again, it's wishful thinking and selective reading that's turned into another 40K fluff myth. That's the problem with sources most people haven't read and don't have access to.
Actually the word used is "often", it's preceded by a paragraph explaining that Space Marine Chapters going Renegade is rare. It's not a matter of throwing everything at the Renegade Space Marine Chapter until they keel over, it's about doing it efficiently. Even the Imperium recognizes when the cost of doing battle is too high. If the Ecclesiarchy wanted to, they could conquer the Space Wolves by declaring Exterminatus on Fenris, but it would be a massive waste of resources.
The Sisters of Battle are the most efficient way of eliminating a Renegade chapter, the Command Structure can be assumed to include the chapter's Apothecaries dooming the Chapter to a slow death. Of course the Ordo Hereticus doesn't fight fair, they take out the chapter "from the top down", it's not just a matter of Assassinating a lone Chapter Master. If they only had to kill a couple space marines the Officio Assassinorum would be a much more efficient force.
Again with the selective reading. What did I say about what this does to create false myths? At no point are the Sisters described as being an "efficient" (let alone "most efficient", lol). In fact, the words describing the success rate of the mission are "with any hope of successfully".
Let's just clear this up for the people who don't have as many Citadel Journals.
There we go. CJ49. It does use the word often. However, context is important. At no point though does it suggest this is the first priority, nor that Sororitas are the "go to" for taking down Space Marine Chapters. Just that sometimes an Inquisitor may try to decapitate a Chapter's leadership, (often perishing horribly in the attempt), and often they will try it with Sisters of Battle. We already know from the fluff that the "go to" is the Grey Knights or other Space Marines because there are a few dozen examples in the fluff of this happening, and roughly two (unsuccessful) examples of the Sisters doing it.
Remember kids, Inquisitors don't always make good decisions. Hence why they'd try to attack genetically engineered super warriors with a small force of crazed battle nuns and no exfiltration plan.
"Drop Pod into the middle of a Space Marine Chapter to kill its leaders, then hope the rest of them see reason?"
"Yeah, why wouldn't that work?"
Not only is there no fluff support for the idea of Sisters being the "Go to" for taking down Space Marines, we know that the Space Marines have, at least twice, taken down the Ecclesiarch and the Sisters have been unable to stop them. Probably because Sisters of Battle are just fanatical space clerics with good gear, and the Space Marines are fanatical seven foot tall bioengineered killing machines.
They did fail to take down Vandire during the Reign of Blood. At least three Chapters and an entire army of the Adeptus Mechanicus were massacred by the Brides of the Emperor (the old name of SoB) when they attempted an Drop Pod assault on the Imperial Palace. It's the Brides who killed the Ecclesiarch not any Space Marine. They were still recovering from their defeat and planning a long siege (seems like clerics of a god of war can pack a mean punch). In fact, from the list of Ecclesiarch on Lexicanum. One was poisonned, one killed by Alicia and one executed by Vandire to usurp his post. I don't see any Ecclesiarch killed by Space Marines or even overthrown by them. Could you provide the event in which they killed the Ecclesiarch and why?
J3f wrote: Nope, The Sisters of Battle are an Inquisitor's first choice in destroying a renegade Space Marine Chapter. They're the only Force in the Imperium Crazy Loyal enough to challenge Space Marines in a fight. Citadel Journal 49 laid it all out in the Ordo Hereticus Strike Force, which was written during 3rd edition. The Sisters of Battle led by an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor launch a surprise attack using Drop Pods and Imperial Navy Strike Cruisers, in an effort to eliminate the Chapters leadership. Space Marines aren't asked to attack their fellow Brothers, unless they have blatantly fallen to Chaos.
I could see an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor doing this, but only because that's exactly what they would be expected to do.
To draw this conclusion from a limited pool of examples seems silly. The Imperium would use any and all available resources to destroy a renegade chapter. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.
CJ49 actually is pretty specific that the Sisters are used in an attempt to decaptiate a Chapter command suspected of treason. It actually pretty specifically says they wouldn't try it against an entire Chapter. It also very specifically says "may" do that. Not "always" or "usually" or "first option" or anything like that. Again, it's wishful thinking and selective reading that's turned into another 40K fluff myth. That's the problem with sources most people haven't read and don't have access to.
Actually the word used is "often", it's preceded by a paragraph explaining that Space Marine Chapters going Renegade is rare. It's not a matter of throwing everything at the Renegade Space Marine Chapter until they keel over, it's about doing it efficiently. Even the Imperium recognizes when the cost of doing battle is too high. If the Ecclesiarchy wanted to, they could conquer the Space Wolves by declaring Exterminatus on Fenris, but it would be a massive waste of resources.
The Sisters of Battle are the most efficient way of eliminating a Renegade chapter, the Command Structure can be assumed to include the chapter's Apothecaries dooming the Chapter to a slow death. Of course the Ordo Hereticus doesn't fight fair, they take out the chapter "from the top down", it's not just a matter of Assassinating a lone Chapter Master. If they only had to kill a couple space marines the Officio Assassinorum would be a much more efficient force.
Again with the selective reading. What did I say about what this does to create false myths? At no point are the Sisters described as being an "efficient" (let alone "most efficient", lol). In fact, the words describing the success rate of the mission are "with any hope of successfully".
Let's just clear this up for the people who don't have as many Citadel Journals.
There we go. CJ49. It does use the word often. However, context is important. At no point though does it suggest this is the first priority, nor that Sororitas are the "go to" for taking down Space Marine Chapters. Just that sometimes an Inquisitor may try to decapitate a Chapter's leadership, (often perishing horribly in the attempt), and often they will try it with Sisters of Battle. We already know from the fluff that the "go to" is the Grey Knights or other Space Marines because there are a few dozen examples in the fluff of this happening, and roughly two (unsuccessful) examples of the Sisters doing it.
Remember kids, Inquisitors don't always make good decisions. Hence why they'd try to attack genetically engineered super warriors with a small force of crazed battle nuns and no exfiltration plan.
"Drop Pod into the middle of a Space Marine Chapter to kill its leaders, then hope the rest of them see reason?"
"Yeah, why wouldn't that work?"
Not only is there no fluff support for the idea of Sisters being the "Go to" for taking down Space Marines, we know that the Space Marines have, at least twice, taken down the Ecclesiarch and the Sisters have been unable to stop them. Probably because Sisters of Battle are just fanatical space clerics with good gear, and the Space Marines are fanatical seven foot tall bioengineered killing machines.
Sounds like the Sisters are only the "go to" when they know they can't persuade a space marine chapter that killing this chapter would be justified.
The Space Wolves aren't near outcasts of the Imperium either. Not even close. Some individuals (or maybe a faction) within the Inquisition don't like them, and the Ecclesiarchy certainly doesn't (but then, the Ecclesiarchy doesn't like anything they don't control including the Mechanicus and most other Marine chapters), but among the general population, Imperial Guard and their peers among Space Marines, the Wolves are generally well-liked and (at the very least) respected. Ten thousand years of loyalty on the front lines still commands some respect even in the Grim Darkness (or is that Dark Grimness?) of 40K.
In fact, Logan Grimnar is one of the Imperiurm most well-known and beloved military commanders.
He used to (I dunno if he still does) even have a special rule reflecting this FFS!
Cooperation with the Wolves isn't that problematic either - as long as you ask nicely and don't try to boss them around. As has been said before, Marine Chapters are virtually autonomous, and guard this autonomy jealously, the Wolves moreso than most because of their individualistic and direct nature.
What I've seen is text that provides a scenario for fielding a Space Marine army against Sororitas, nothing to suggest that Sisters of Battle are the primary means of dealing with renegades. Arguing on pedantic talking points is getting nowhere.
As for the dirtbag chapters, what was the story on the Grey Knights knowing the Dark Angel's secret?
Biggest dirt bags?
1- Dark Angels: As has been pointed out they will abandon or even turn on other space marines if there is a hint of a fallen being about. Sure the Minotaurs and Carchardons have killed their share of allies, but they don't pretend to be anything they are not.
2- Space Wolves: Hey, we don't use psykers, we use *magic*! No, not sorcery, that's bad juju. We have a *magic* planet and *magic* talismans, and *magic* ice weapons. But we hate psykers. Also we call ourselves "The Emperor's Executioners" but it's bad when the Minotaurs do the same job for his proxy.
3- Minotaurs, Marines Malevolent, etc: I never said these guys were much better, but at least the Carcharodons are what they are and don't make up excuses.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Space Wolves, by dooming all of humanity to Chaos by not following the orders of the only organizations that hold Chaos at bay (the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition).
bah! you just want easy killing of loyal guardsmen inquisitor
What about when the Ecclesiarchy showed up at Fenris to make sure the Emperor was being worshipped well and good instead of tribal deities Chaos, and the Fang fired at them as soon as they left Warp.
Like, the Ecclesiarchy was literally like "Anything wrong here? No? Good!" and moving along, but when they got to Fenris they said "Anything wrong here?" and instead of an answer got gigantic laser cannons to the face.
Dirtbags.
EDIT:
Or the time the Inquisition was like "Go on a penitence crusade!" like they've done to several chapters in history and the Space Wolves gave them a face-full of laser fire.
1) ecclesiarchy should know that space marines don't have to, and usualy don't for that matter, worship the emperor as a god.
2) Are we ignoring the fact that the inquisition fired on the space wolves ships as a sort of "I'm upset that you won't let me kill the guardsmen"? or the fact that the inquisition then tried to invade fenris, and got kicked in for being dicks?
holes, and murderers, they are self righteous cowards and glory hogs.
HERESY!!!!! 
