Fluffwise, Scouts are somewhere between humans and Space Marines. Now the thing is, on one hand certain fluff sources say experience and the lack of power armor are the only two things that differ from a scout and an actual space marine, as the Scouts have already undergone all the surgical prodecures that make them super human. On the other hand, other fluff sources still see scouts as post-surgery human recruits that have to prove themselves before becoming a full space marine.
And while we already have "mere" humans with WS4 and BS4 (see Kasrkin/Stormtroopers), it would make little sense for trans-humans to suck more in combat.
Yet, if you accept the new statline, then armor is the only thing scouts lack as they are identical to a space marine in all other aspects.
======
That was the fluff part. Now onto the game design argument.
I find the rise of WS and BS with no changes to point cost worrying. Scouts had always been low damage output models, but nobody used to complain that they suck. Scouts were still a popular SM troop choice. Sure, BS3 snipers are meh; investing into the odd heavy weapon at BS3 (especially the 1 shot missile launcher) was also a meh idea, and cc-scouts that might get hit on 3s by the enemy due to their WS3 was also somewhat off putting.
But now that they are WS4 & BS4, aren't they hands down better than tacticals? Yeah, for 3 more points you get a 3+ armor save and access to more heavy weapons and special weapons too, but you lose your infiltrate/outflank ability, you lose the ability to purchase camo cloaks, you lose the ability to swap your bolters for the long range rending sniper rifle, and you lose access to the land speeder storm.
A Space Marine scout armed with a sniper rifle and a camo cloak hiding behind 4+ cover is the same points cost as a tactical marine, but has the superior weapon, and the same save as a space marine in the open, but obviously doesnt get affected by the AP of weapons. If the space marine is behind 4+ cover and gets shot with a low ap weapon, then the scout has the better save. Only in the rare situation of being hit by ignores cover weapons will the space marine have a better chance of survival.
In any case, what irks me most is that the relatively new SW and BA codexes how have inferior scouts.
It makes sense. The only thing separating them from Tactical, Assault, or Devastators Marines is the fact they lack the Black Carapace. They have undergone most, if not all, of the training at that point.
no. Enough of this stat inflation where everyone gets to be BS/WS 4. Why even bother having BS stats when Tau and IG are the only armies with BS 3? Just make shooting a flat 3+ to hit for everyone and give orks a special rule that they only hit on 6s.
As a space wolf player this kind of upsets me as it takes away. From our special scouts but leaves ourat reduced "claws" units well reduced for what is now, no apparent reason.
However as I can't actually stand to play the game anymore and won't likely do so anytime in the forseeable future, it really doesn't effect me.
To be honest I don't think it was necessary, and as already said kind of puts the boot into Space Wolves Blood Claws and Blood Angels Scouts.
If they wanted to improve Scout shooting, just say that sniper rifles always hit on a 3+ unless the wielder's BS is high enough to make it less than that.
Frozocrone wrote: But WS5 Orks to make up for BS1, right? We'z love a good fight!
Nah, remove WS as well. The WS table hardly matters most of the time so just make melee attacks hit on a flat 4+ for everyone.
remove melee.New Melee would be both models shoting in base to base, dudes stupid enough to run with a sword or an ax would strike at lowered Initative, as a bullet or laser beam is faster then even an eldars arm. Add some rules for crazy dudes spraying full auto at close range and others being disiplined enough to target at short range or when charged.And marines would get their head shot thing they do in every book, precision shot when shoting in melee. Super powerful but slow melee units would still find some use as a str8 or 10 i1 would do more damage then a str 3 or 4 personal weapon.
On the one hand, it's unfortunate to see how anything below BS4 is increasingly seen as simply unacceptable and everything in any army that see's itself as any more "elite" than IG getting boosted to BS4...largely just "because".
On the other hand, there's good justification for Scouts being WS4/BS4, they are supposedly Space Marines in every manner but having the Black Carapace for Power Armor, and had WS4/BS4 up until 5E (unlike Guardians who *always* had WS3/BS3 until 6E) so it's more a return to their "original" stats.
Peregrine wrote: no. Enough of this stat inflation where everyone gets to be BS/WS 4. Why even bother having BS stats when Tau and IG are the only armies with BS 3? Just make shooting a flat 3+ to hit for everyone and give orks a special rule that they only hit on 6s.
Sir Arun wrote: Fluffwise, Scouts are somewhere between humans and Space Marines. Now the thing is, on one hand certain fluff sources say experience and the lack of power armor are the only two things that differ from a scout and an actual space marine, as the Scouts have already undergone all the surgical prodecures that make them super human. On the other hand, other fluff sources still see scouts as post-surgery human recruits that have to prove themselves before becoming a full space marine.
This highlights the D6 issue of 40k. There's a big difference between BS4 and BS3, (16.7% effectiveness), and Scouts should be enhanced humans. The codex does say that they have the bio-enhancements, so they should at least be a LITTLE better than Guard But it's not like you can have BS 3.5
They are still Space Marines, and in my small mind, I simply choose to think that the only difference between Scouts and Tacticals (or Devastators or ASM) is their training and battle role, rather than their ability or bio-engineering.
Of course, this has nothing to do with their points value. That's a whole other subject!
I also see thsi more as return to old scouts, but i think they should have made them like 11 ppm maybe? They are much better then tacticals with exception of avalibility of special weapons. Maybe if it was bonus of 10th company task force formation it would be more justifiable.
I think it's a stupid idea, and I think units in the IG Dex that are BS/Ws 4 are generally a bad idea too. I also think Guardians and any Eldar platform with Guardian crew should be Bs/Ws 3 also. I think untrained humans, like Chaos Cultists generally, should be Bs/Ws 2. I really hate the drift away from lower stats, as I feel it adds to the overwhelming firepower of the game that is not nearly as much fun to play.
I agree about the d6 nature of the game. I wish there was more room, but there is not. But I welcome their return to BS/WS4.
One thing to remember is there are a number of ways to ignore cover, and there is a chunk of AP4 stuff out there. It’s all fun and games sniping from the woods, then someone with a heavy flamer comes over, and it’s BBQ time.
It puts scouts back where they were. It makes scout armies a bit more viable. And note one of their old uses is gone out the window since poison doesn't work on Wraithknights anymore.
Fluffwise, yeah they aren't full marines yet but they haven't been partying in the barracks for the last five to ten years waiting to get a black carapace either. I imagine they would have been at the range and in the sawdust pits fighting almost every day, all day from the time they start getting implants. Makes even more sense for chapters that essentially use their scouts as special forces teams. And it brings them on par with 30k Recon teams which were the same thing but with the option of wearing power armor.
Col. Dash wrote: I imagine they would have been at the range and in the sawdust pits fighting almost every day, all day from the time they start getting implants.
That's nice and all, but aren't the power armours supposed to augment you in some way? Because if you're trying to make fluff reasons for the rules here, then the power armour now is basically a heavier kevlar armour. It's not augmenting targeting or fighting prowess.
Col. Dash wrote: It puts scouts back where they were. It makes scout armies a bit more viable. And note one of their old uses is gone out the window since poison doesn't work on Wraithknights anymore.
Col. Dash is right in my mind. Scouts always used to be WS/BS 4, and when they went down to 3 I know that Scouts really suffered. Now, their points cost has always been lower than Tacticals, and this change doesn't really change their battlefield role much (infiltrating/scouting ObSec units), but it does bring them in line with "4's across the board" that is Space Marine standard. I doubt this change will ultimately make a huge impact on the game.
Peregrine wrote: no. Enough of this stat inflation where everyone gets to be BS/WS 4. Why even bother having BS stats when Tau and IG are the only armies with BS 3? Just make shooting a flat 3+ to hit for everyone and give orks a special rule that they only hit on 6s.
Col. Dash wrote: I imagine they would have been at the range and in the sawdust pits fighting almost every day, all day from the time they start getting implants.
That's nice and all, but aren't the power armours supposed to augment you in some way? Because if you're trying to make fluff reasons for the rules here, then the power armour now is basically a heavier kevlar armour. It's not augmenting targeting or fighting prowess.
Power armor isn't why space marines have BS4/WS4. Otherwise you're arguing that IG veterans are better at shooting than a marine.
Col. Dash wrote: I imagine they would have been at the range and in the sawdust pits fighting almost every day, all day from the time they start getting implants.
That's nice and all, but aren't the power armours supposed to augment you in some way? Because if you're trying to make fluff reasons for the rules here, then the power armour now is basically a heavier kevlar armour. It's not augmenting targeting or fighting prowess.
Power armor isn't why space marines have BS4/WS4. Otherwise you're arguing that IG veterans are better at shooting than a marine.
My point exactly. Don't try to put fluff logic into the statlines. It has no place there.
Talys wrote: This highlights the D6 issue of 40k. There's a big difference between BS4 and BS3, (16.7% effectiveness), and Scouts should be enhanced humans.
Actually it's a 33% difference in effectiveness.
I hadn't actually read about scouts going to Ws/Bs 4. If that's the case, I don't like it. Ws/Bs3 should be representative of a well trained human, 4 should represent something freakish.
Talys wrote: This highlights the D6 issue of 40k. There's a big difference between BS4 and BS3, (16.7% effectiveness), and Scouts should be enhanced humans.
Actually it's a 33% difference in effectiveness.
I hadn't actually read about scouts going to Ws/Bs 4. If that's the case, I don't like it. Ws/Bs3 should be representative of a well trained human, 4 should represent something freakish.
Personally I'm happy with it.
Not all Chapters field untested recruits as their Scout Squads. Raven Guard were mentioned to field kill-teams of veteran Battle-Brothers(as in equivalent to those guys from the First Company) in Scout Armor when necessary to throw out an example.
Power creep, pure and simple. Just another small step towards a game with even more deadly shooting, where your entire army dies by turn 5.
The only thing wrong with 6e scouts is how crappy sniper rifles are, and that would have been more appropriately fixed by a buff to the sniper USR during the transition to 7th edition (instead of the nerf it got).
Kanluwen wrote: Not all Chapters field untested recruits as their Scout Squads. Raven Guard were mentioned to field kill-teams of veteran Battle-Brothers(as in equivalent to those guys from the First Company) in Scout Armor when necessary to throw out an example.
Yeah and that's fine, Space Wolves are the same (since 3rd edition), but I think those should be special rules given to those specific chapters, not just a blanket power creep.
I'm actually happy about it. It was a personal peeve of mine that scouts, the only ubut with access to snipers in the whole codex, also had the worst bs.
Getting rid of the D6 has its own problems as has been discussed in other threads. I'd be happy with the D6 system if we actually used the potential of the D6.
Getting rid of the D6 has its own problems as has been discussed in other threads. I'd be happy with the D6 system if we actually used the potential of the D6.
I enjoy that they took the Scouts back to BS and WS4 like they were in 4th Edition and earlier. Scouts should be better at shooting than average Guardsmen. They are either trained their whole life to be a marine, or have already been proven warriors prior to recruitment.
Then once they are recruited they go through more training, until they are put in a Scout Squad (to receive yet more training and field experience) and serve an indeterminate amount of time as a Scout before being elevated to the position of full Battle Brother. Remember you dont just get promoted after X amount of time in the 10th Company, when you leave is based on merit and whether or not there is a place in the other companies for you.
The low cost wont effect too much in the Grand Scheme of things, but could they go up maybe one point? Sure, but I doubt it will affect much.
Getting rid of the D6 has its own problems as has been discussed in other threads. I'd be happy with the D6 system if we actually used the potential of the D6.
Could you elaborate on that?
Well look at the Ws table. It only goes from 3+ to 5+. I tend to be of the opinion that 40k being a larger scale game these days doesn't need the fine granularity of an RPG. All your core troops can be represented on a 2+ to a 6+ quite well enough and then oddities can be shown with special rules to account for troops that are significantly more powerful than that.
I think going to higher sided dice comes with enough of it's own problems to not really be worth the benefits, I'd much rather roll large numbers of D6 than smaller numbers of higher sided dice, especially when you consider that the more dice you roll the less variability there is.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: I enjoy that they took the Scouts back to BS and WS4 like they were in 4th Edition and earlier. Scouts should be better at shooting than average Guardsmen. They are either trained their whole life to be a marine, or have already been proven warriors prior to recruitment.
Then once they are recruited they go through more training, until they are put in a Scout Squad (to receive yet more training and field experience) and serve an indeterminate amount of time as a Scout before being elevated to the position of full Battle Brother. Remember you dont just get promoted after X amount of time in the 10th Company, when you leave is based on merit and whether or not there is a place in the other companies for you.
The low cost wont effect too much in the Grand Scheme of things, but could they go up maybe one point? Sure, but I doubt it will affect much.
Again: Fluff reasons are bad reasons. Hell, in the Space Wolves I seem to recall that being a scout isn't the second class citizen job it is in other chapters, but something reserved for some of their more proven soldiers.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: I enjoy that they took the Scouts back to BS and WS4 like they were in 4th Edition and earlier. Scouts should be better at shooting than average Guardsmen. They are either trained their whole life to be a marine, or have already been proven warriors prior to recruitment.
By that logic, any Cadian model should be BS4 as well since they "learn to field-strip and fire their lasguns before they can walk".
Again: Fluff reasons are bad reasons. Hell, in the Space Wolves I seem to recall that being a scout isn't the second class citizen job it is in other chapters, but something reserved for some of their more proven soldiers.
It's more that in the Wolves, it's "reserved for those Space Wolves who don't play well with others and who have a tricky side to them".
Purifier wrote:Again: Fluff reasons are bad reasons. Hell, in the Space Wolves I seem to recall that being a scout isn't the second class citizen job it is in other chapters, but something reserved for some of their more proven soldiers.
What's your crunch reason that they shouldn't be WS/BS4?
Kanluwen wrote:
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: I enjoy that they took the Scouts back to BS and WS4 like they were in 4th Edition and earlier. Scouts should be better at shooting than average Guardsmen. They are either trained their whole life to be a marine, or have already been proven warriors prior to recruitment.
By that logic, any Cadian model should be BS4 as well since they "learn to field-strip and fire their lasguns before they can walk".
Give them options for Veteran Platoons problem solved.
But you know who else trains from a young age to be Soldiers and do have BS4? Storm troopers, who would be closer to what a Scout is.
Getting rid of the D6 has its own problems as has been discussed in other threads. I'd be happy with the D6 system if we actually used the potential of the D6.
Could you elaborate on that?
Well look at the Ws table. It only goes from 3+ to 5+. I tend to be of the opinion that 40k being a larger scale game these days doesn't need the fine granularity of an RPG. All your core troops can be represented on a 2+ to a 6+ quite well enough and then oddities can be shown with special rules to account for troops that are significantly more powerful than that.
I think going to higher sided dice comes with enough of it's own problems to not really be worth the benefits, I'd much rather roll large numbers of D6 than smaller numbers of higher sided dice, especially when you consider that the more dice you roll the less variability there is.
It needs more granularity because the amount of unique units in the game.
Well look at the Ws table. It only goes from 3+ to 5+. I tend to be of the opinion that 40k being a larger scale game these days doesn't need the fine granularity of an RPG. All your core troops can be represented on a 2+ to a 6+ quite well enough and then oddities can be shown with special rules to account for troops that are significantly more powerful than that.
Sorry, I'm confused. You first say that 40k shouldn't be as granular as an RPG... then you say that it should be more granular by making the WS table go from 2+ to 6+.
In any case, I'm not sure that solves anything - especially when you start applying it elsewhere. Surely the major problem of 40k in terms of using different values (rather than hovering around 4 for most stats) is that even +2 or -2 can quickly make a unit either too tough or so fragile as to be worthless.
vipoid wrote: Sorry, I'm confused. You first say that 40k shouldn't be as granular as an RPG... then you say that it should be more granular by making the WS table go from 2+ to 6+.
I'm not sure what's confusing about that. It doesn't need the granularity of a game that uses D10's, 12's and 20's.... but it could use the granularity offered by a D6 (which currently isn't being used because we have things like the Ws table that only goes from 3+ to 5+ or snap shots that are 6's to hit regardless of Bs).
In any case, I'm not sure that solves anything - especially when you start applying it elsewhere. Surely the major problem of 40k in terms of using different values (rather than hovering around 4 for most stats) is that even +2 or -2 can quickly make a unit either too tough or so fragile as to be worthless.
I think that's more a problem with 40k tending to not use many modifiers but instead going for all or nothing sort of things (like snap shots dropping to 6's, or the AP system where you either ignore armour completely or don't ignore it at all).
Out of interest, what problems would d10s cause?
It's just less convenient rolling large numbers of dice. They don't roll as nicely, they are more likely to get cocked up against terrain or models, they are slower to read, they aren't as cheap and easy to get.
Obviously it just comes down to preference though. I'm not a fan of higher sided dice unless it's for rolling smaller numbers of dice and I prefer rolling larger number of dice anyway (to reduce variability). At the end of the day, I think the granularity offered by a D10 over a D6 is far from the worst problem with 40k.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: I enjoy that they took the Scouts back to BS and WS4 like they were in 4th Edition and earlier. Scouts should be better at shooting than average Guardsmen. They are either trained their whole life to be a marine, or have already been proven warriors prior to recruitment.
By that logic, any Cadian model should be BS4 as well since they "learn to field-strip and fire their lasguns before they can walk".
The whole "raised to be a warrior" myth is a stupid one that needs to die. Spartans surrendered and lost battles. So did samurai, knights, and every other caste of professional soldier in history.
Volunteer forces are the way to go, since you weed out, by default, everyone who doesn't consciously want to be a warrior.
After all, the Fire Caste do the same thing. Maybe Tau should get a bump up to BS4, since they spend their lives training for war and nothing else.
For the record, I think that anything that isn't super-human or assisted by advanced targeting systems should be BS3. Stormtroopers, Guardians, and Veterans need to be BS3. Scouts might deserve the 4, but it's happening because of power creep, not because it's fluffy.
Peregrine wrote: no. Enough of this stat inflation where everyone gets to be BS/WS 4. Why even bother having BS stats when Tau and IG are the only armies with BS 3? Just make shooting a flat 3+ to hit for everyone and give orks a special rule that they only hit on 6s.
Orks have Bs 2....
Scout should have Bs 4 because they are space marines and have pretty much all the training except some body implants...
vipoid wrote: Sorry, I'm confused. You first say that 40k shouldn't be as granular as an RPG... then you say that it should be more granular by making the WS table go from 2+ to 6+.
In any case, I'm not sure that solves anything - especially when you start applying it elsewhere. Surely the major problem of 40k in terms of using different values (rather than hovering around 4 for most stats) is that even +2 or -2 can quickly make a unit either too tough or so fragile as to be worthless.
Out of interest, what problems would d10s cause?
I don't think changing the WS table makes the game more granular. Everything else in the game already goes from 2+ to 6+, so I don't see why to-hit rolls in close combat should be any different. If anything, it would help new players by allowing for more consistency. I can't tell you how many times I've had newer players think they should be hitting on better than 3+, or worse than 4+ (they don't realize you need to be REALLY high WS for a 5+ to happen).
I also agree with AllSeeingSkink, a simple 2+ to 6+ isn't really enough on its own, but is easily expanded. Things that modify, rerolls, modified rerolls, bonuses on certain numbers, penalties on other numbers... there's a lot of room in the randomization of d6. Take a look at a simple to-wound roll. Pretty standard normally, but look how much different it becomes when a weapon is poisoned, when the attack has rending, or shred, or is a Harlequin kiss of death, or is a rad-rifle from a Skitarii, or is rerolled with Da Lucky Stikk. It's something so simple, but there's a lot of extra ways to modify it.
Finally, there's a pretty obvious huge problem switching dice systems causes. Everything's written for d6's right now. To change up would mean there'd need to be an update of EVERYTHING - which would be slow, expensive, and cause no small amount of grief for the players and GW. Imagine if legalisation passed that made it illegal to use cell phones, and all the cell companies had to immediately end service. Your phone suddenly only works when plugged into a wall outlet again. I mean, yeah, we'd get by, but some people only own cell phones and would have to change. There'd be buying of new cell phones. Cancelling and changing of phone plans. Samsung, Apple, etc... they all have to pull their devices and put out new ones fast. And you, the customer are stuck in the middle. Like, you could do it, but the logistics of it would be traumatic to the economy and to your own life.
I'm in two minds about this really. On the one hand, as someone who has loved scout marines since 5e, this is awesome. My objective holder snipers are more annoying now than ever! But, no increase in points bothers me a bit, I'll be honest. I liked having the sergeant be a better shot than the rest of the unit, out was kinda neat. I think maybe making them a point or to more would be more fair, but they're still scout marines, they're still going to be used to hold objectives for me, so, I don't know. I'm still gonna run them.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: I enjoy that they took the Scouts back to BS and WS4 like they were in 4th Edition and earlier. Scouts should be better at shooting than average Guardsmen. They are either trained their whole life to be a marine, or have already been proven warriors prior to recruitment.
By that logic, any Cadian model should be BS4 as well since they "learn to field-strip and fire their lasguns before they can walk".
The whole "raised to be a warrior" myth is a stupid one that needs to die. Spartans surrendered and lost battles. So did samurai, knights, and every other caste of professional soldier in history.
Volunteer forces are the way to go, since you weed out, by default, everyone who doesn't consciously want to be a warrior.
You might want to go and actually read up on Cadians then; because they are the very definition of "volunteer forces".
After all, the Fire Caste do the same thing. Maybe Tau should get a bump up to BS4, since they spend their lives training for war and nothing else.
Their "adult lives", not from childhood onwards from what we've seen.
The whole "raised to be a warrior" myth is a stupid one that needs to die. Spartans surrendered and lost battles. So did samurai, knights, and every other caste of professional soldier in history.
Volunteer forces are the way to go, since you weed out, by default, everyone who doesn't consciously want to be a warrior.
No one said those groups didnt surrender, if fact that hadn't even been mentioned. Besides, in 40k raise a warrior is something that happens through constant indoctrination of various sorts. And you dont just need volunteer forces to be good soldiers, you can break those that dont until they do, its not as efficient but it can be done if you have the resolve to do it. I'd also point out that a fair number of today's volunteer forces aren't people that want to be Soldiers (at least in the US) they are just people that want the perks, schooling, benefits ect.
Scouts might deserve the 4, but it's happening because of power creep, not because it's fluffy.
Except that it is fluffy, a Scout remains a scout until he is given the Black Carapace which come at an undetermined time in the Scout Company, usually depending on skill and the need for replacements. Their skills would be highly refined. There's no reason Vets and Storm Troopers shouldnt be BS4, as they would through experience be able to hit targets more than 50% of the time. Tau get the tech to make up for it.
I don't care what fluff you want to try and justify what with, they should all have the same statline throughout every codex. If they want to choose 4s across the board, so be it. Just be consistent.
The weapon availability and tactics should be the main differences between chapters. Not the stat lines.
I don't care what fluff you want to try and justify what with, they should all have the same statline throughout every codex. If they want to choose 4s across the board, so be it. Just be consistent.
The weapon availability and tactics should be the main differences between chapters. Not the stat lines.
There was a time when they were all WS/BS4 and then there was a time when they were all WS/BS3 (except the Space Wolves). It will get back to them having the same line eventually.
Don't give a . Never liked the look of the scout models, not to mention no specials and worse save outside of cover. They just seem unimpressive compared to firepower you can pack into tactical squads. I'd rather pay points on units that can actually kill something on objectives and stay on them rather than take pot shots from a camp.
You might want to go and actually read up on Cadians then; because they are the very definition of "volunteer forces".
Uh, what?
If you're born on Cadia, you are a member of the military. There is no such thing as a Cadian civilian. There are simply Cadian soldiers currently engaged in support occupations.
I like the change. Marines already had too many useless units before (Assault Marines, Vanguard Veterans, Scouts, Scout Bikes, Non-TH/SS Terminators, Dreadnaughts, Chaplains). In order to make them strong enough to compete in the post-Necron environment, some units had to be upgraded.
Granted, I would have preferred it have been terminators, but I'll take Scouts suddenly being more than just that unit that eats up the last 70 points and does nothing but babysit an objective nobody is near. Sniper scouts will finally be useful, and assault scouts will finally pose a threat instead of being laughed at. Bolter scouts are still very MEH, and I'd rather spend the extra points on tactical marines for the increased durability, special weapons, and transport options.
You might want to go and actually read up on Cadians then; because they are the very definition of "volunteer forces".
Uh, what?
If you're born on Cadia, you are a member of the military. There is no such thing as a Cadian civilian. There are simply Cadian soldiers currently engaged in support occupations.
"Volunteer forces" are used to describe militaries where the soldiers are part of a profession and actually want to be there.
For Cadians, being a member of a Shock Troop regiment(or even better--a Kasrkin regiment) is a Big Deal.
Furyou Miko wrote: But the Cadian PDF are on constant war footing and are a Guard-level military force in their own right. They are not volunteer soldiers.
Ya know, that seems like a pretty simple concept to grasp, but after having it repeated back already, I think you're wasting your typing on him.
I really dislike the scout boost. Now there is no point to take tactical marines. If I wanted the special or heavy weapons I'd just take it on devastator squads or other squads. If I want the transports I'd just take it on assault squads for FREE. and if i need uber mobility id just take bike troops. Tact squads are now useless.
Furyou Miko wrote:But the Cadian PDF are on constant war footing and are a Guard-level military force in their own right. They are not volunteer soldiers.
Im not saying they are, you asked a question and I provided an answer. Given a choice, each Cadian would rather be in one of the off world Regiments rather than on Cadia itself, since for the most part major incursions are few and far between. Thirteen Major incursions infact, and not all of them aimed at Cadia in the first place.
EmpNortonII wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote: But the Cadian PDF are on constant war footing and are a Guard-level military force in their own right. They are not volunteer soldiers.
Ya know, that seems like a pretty simple concept to grasp, but after having it repeated back already, I think you're wasting your typing on him.
For one, Im not the one arguing that they are, check who you are referring to mate. Secondly your are the one who spurred this pointless debate by bringing in a matter that had little bearing on the point, and have also refused to see the FLUFF support for why Scouts would have the stats they do. Infact you frequently seem to dismiss anything that isn't in support of your opinion.
An all volunteer force does have it's benefits, but you know what, so to does a mandatory service force. In the mandatory service force after serving your X amount of years (or chosing to remain in service), it is easier for the military to bring in more soldiers as needed incase of an emergency as the replacements would already have training and would only need a limited refreshment course to get them back up to speed, depending on years since leaving the Force. Even then you still have the basics and a longer training still wouldnt be as long as training new Volunteers.
Peregrine wrote: no. Enough of this stat inflation where everyone gets to be BS/WS 4. Why even bother having BS stats when Tau and IG are the only armies with BS 3? Just make shooting a flat 3+ to hit for everyone and give orks a special rule that they only hit on 6s.
and as per usual the GW community throws Orks out of the picture as irrelevant
Frozocrone wrote: But WS5 Orks to make up for BS1, right? We'z love a good fight!
Nah, remove WS as well. The WS table hardly matters most of the time so just make melee attacks hit on a flat 4+ for everyone.
remove melee.New Melee would be both models shoting in base to base, dudes stupid enough to run with a sword or an ax would strike at lowered Initative, as a bullet or laser beam is faster then even an eldars arm. Add some rules for crazy dudes spraying full auto at close range and others being disiplined enough to target at short range or when charged.And marines would get their head shot thing they do in every book, precision shot when shoting in melee. Super powerful but slow melee units would still find some use as a str8 or 10 i1 would do more damage then a str 3 or 4 personal weapon.
No idea what this guy was trying to say.
Buffed Scouts suck. Space Wolves have elite scouts. I never let them live through a game. You think I want you to have bs4 scouts with sniper rifles? Nope! Pie plate!
Whatever though. New codex sucks decurion balls. Have fun!
as for the rules change, just taking a quick glance at the Eldar's new Codex and im going to say that judging by that the SM Scouts should also have an extra wound to put them in line with the Eldar buff.
vipoid wrote: Sorry, I'm confused. You first say that 40k shouldn't be as granular as an RPG... then you say that it should be more granular by making the WS table go from 2+ to 6+.
In any case, I'm not sure that solves anything - especially when you start applying it elsewhere. Surely the major problem of 40k in terms of using different values (rather than hovering around 4 for most stats) is that even +2 or -2 can quickly make a unit either too tough or so fragile as to be worthless.
Out of interest, what problems would d10s cause?
I don't think changing the WS table makes the game more granular. Everything else in the game already goes from 2+ to 6+, so I don't see why to-hit rolls in close combat should be any different. If anything, it would help new players by allowing for more consistency. I can't tell you how many times I've had newer players think they should be hitting on better than 3+, or worse than 4+ (they don't realize you need to be REALLY high WS for a 5+ to happen).
I also agree with AllSeeingSkink, a simple 2+ to 6+ isn't really enough on its own, but is easily expanded. Things that modify, rerolls, modified rerolls, bonuses on certain numbers, penalties on other numbers... there's a lot of room in the randomization of d6. Take a look at a simple to-wound roll. Pretty standard normally, but look how much different it becomes when a weapon is poisoned, when the attack has rending, or shred, or is a Harlequin kiss of death, or is a rad-rifle from a Skitarii, or is rerolled with Da Lucky Stikk. It's something so simple, but there's a lot of extra ways to modify it.
Finally, there's a pretty obvious huge problem switching dice systems causes. Everything's written for d6's right now. To change up would mean there'd need to be an update of EVERYTHING - which would be slow, expensive, and cause no small amount of grief for the players and GW. Imagine if legalisation passed that made it illegal to use cell phones, and all the cell companies had to immediately end service. Your phone suddenly only works when plugged into a wall outlet again. I mean, yeah, we'd get by, but some people only own cell phones and would have to change. There'd be buying of new cell phones. Cancelling and changing of phone plans. Samsung, Apple, etc... they all have to pull their devices and put out new ones fast. And you, the customer are stuck in the middle. Like, you could do it, but the logistics of it would be traumatic to the economy and to your own life.
Ghazkuul wrote: as for the rules change, just taking a quick glance at the Eldar's new Codex and im going to say that judging by that the SM Scouts should also have an extra wound to put them in line with the Eldar buff.
Then all the new Eldar players will become new Space Marine players!
For one, Im not the one arguing that they are, check who you are referring to mate. Secondly your are the one who spurred this pointless debate by bringing in a matter that had little bearing on the point, and have also refused to see the FLUFF support for why Scouts would have the stats they do. Infact you frequently seem to dismiss anything that isn't in support of your opinion.
An all volunteer force does have it's benefits, but you know what, so to does a mandatory service force. In the mandatory service force after serving your X amount of years (or chosing to remain in service), it is easier for the military to bring in more soldiers as needed incase of an emergency as the replacements would already have training and would only need a limited refreshment course to get them back up to speed, depending on years since leaving the Force. Even then you still have the basics and a longer training still wouldnt be as long as training new Volunteers.
1) What I said about scouts was, quite literally, "maybe" as to whether or not it was justified. It all depends on how much you think powered armor improves a Space Marine's performance. If it does nothing or next to nothing to improve accuracy, the buff can be justified. If powered armor is supposed to make someone a better shooter, then it is not, since most of the jump to BS4 is justified by the targeting computers and superior firing stability provided by the armor.
2) If you don't think that GW changed this because of the Eldar Codex and its absurd amount of BS4+, you're smoking crack. GW has shown, repeatedly, that it doesn't care to make a game consistent with fluff (or one that is balanced, for that matter). They're trying to sell scout models, plain and simple, and to boost their best-selling faction.
... and that the primary benefit of a non-volunteer force is lots of expendable bodies is totally true. It does not, however, lead to the average soldier being more dedicated than his volunteer counterpart, no matter how good his indoctrination is. The Imperium clearly realizes this, it just doesn't care how many lives it wastes on meaningless objectives.
The only difference between a Scout and a full ranking Brother is the Black Carapace and experience. I'd say that weapon skill should have remained the same (more or less representing that it hurts to go up against Astartes, even neophytes, in melee), but as the Scout hasn't gone through the Devastator Companies, should have stayed BS3.
Peregrine wrote: no. Enough of this stat inflation where everyone gets to be BS/WS 4. Why even bother having BS stats when Tau and IG are the only armies with BS 3? Just make shooting a flat 3+ to hit for everyone and give orks a special rule that they only hit on 6s.
Although not a fan of your personality, your do have a talent of hitting the nail on the head. Couldn't agree more with this.
1) What I said about scouts was, quite literally, "maybe" as to whether or not it was justified. It all depends on how much you think powered armor improves a Space Marine's performance. If it does nothing or next to nothing to improve accuracy, the buff can be justified. If powered armor is supposed to make someone a better shooter, then it is not, since most of the jump to BS4 is justified by the targeting computers and superior firing stability provided by the armor.
2) If you don't think that GW changed this because of the Eldar Codex and its absurd amount of BS4+, you're smoking crack. GW has shown, repeatedly, that it doesn't care to make a game consistent with fluff (or one that is balanced, for that matter). They're trying to sell scout models, plain and simple, and to boost their best-selling faction.
While it could have something to do with the Eldar buff to BS4, the Scouts being BS and WS4 is something that had existed in atleast 3rd and 4th Editions, at least until it was changed for no apparent reason in. Also I dont recall a single time in the fluff where a Marines accuracy is thanks to his power armor, its always the skill of the man shooting.
It does not, however, lead to the average soldier being more dedicated than his volunteer counterpart, no matter how good his indoctrination is.
Thats a gross generalization of people, and a large underestimate of the number of Volunteers that didn't join out of any desire to serve only out of a desire to reap the rewards. I can't tell you how many times I heard people say "I never joined the military to fight wars."
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wyzilla wrote: The only difference between a Scout and a full ranking Brother is the Black Carapace and experience. I'd say that weapon skill should have remained the same (more or less representing that it hurts to go up against Astartes, even neophytes, in melee), but as the Scout hasn't gone through the Devastator Companies, should have stayed BS3.
They dont learn to shoot in the Devastator Companies, they learn to shoot as a Scout, hence SNIPERS. Which they shouldn't even be if they are the newest least trained guys.
On the one hand, it's unfortunate to see how anything below BS4 is increasingly seen as simply unacceptable and everything in any army that see's itself as any more "elite" than IG getting boosted to BS4...largely just "because".
On the other hand, there's good justification for Scouts being WS4/BS4, they are supposedly Space Marines in every manner but having the Black Carapace for Power Armor, and had WS4/BS4 up until 5E (unlike Guardians who *always* had WS3/BS3 until 6E) so it's more a return to their "original" stats.
Guardians and all eldar vehicles moving to BS4 made no sense to me. Conscript Eldar apparently have the same WS and BS as warrior eldar who spend millenia honing their skills.
I actually like the buff. Scout armies are interesting to play as and against. They are not highly abusive and the BS4 will actually make little to no actual difference as the sarge w/ combi weapon usually did most of the shooting damage for the unit. The bolters are still just bolters...how many times have you honestly went those bolter tactical marines just wiped me out!!! Never. TAC marines get the majority of their damage from the plasma or melta guns and combi weapon on the sarge.
Now the WS 4 might end up being a bigger buff in some respects. Going from being hit on a 3+ to hit on a 4+ means that many units will take an extra turn or two to kill the unit. This buff also makes it easier to land attacks back on WS3 units, which are becoming more common thanks to adeptus mechanicus.
As for the pts cost. People were constantly complaining about how under powered TAC marines and scouts were for the past decade. TAC marines have a variety of stealth buffs from doctrines and various formations while scouts gained a direct boost to WS and BS. I have been playing with TL-bolters (so 75% chance to hit rather than 66% from BS4) from sentinels of terra for years now and rather than making scout armies overpowering it really only increases the damage output enough to make them not complete wet noodles. The vast majority of the damage and utility of scouts is in positioning, tar pitting, combi weapon + meltabomb sarges, and melee krak grenades.
WS3 BS3 actually gained a whole series of new units in the last month so there is definitely some variance in 40K. If you include Forgeworld there are even a significant number of WSBS 2 units.
On the one hand, it's unfortunate to see how anything below BS4 is increasingly seen as simply unacceptable and everything in any army that see's itself as any more "elite" than IG getting boosted to BS4...largely just "because".
On the other hand, there's good justification for Scouts being WS4/BS4, they are supposedly Space Marines in every manner but having the Black Carapace for Power Armor, and had WS4/BS4 up until 5E (unlike Guardians who *always* had WS3/BS3 until 6E) so it's more a return to their "original" stats.
Guardians and all eldar vehicles moving to BS4 made no sense to me. Conscript Eldar apparently have the same WS and BS as warrior eldar who spend millenia honing their skills.
That conscript Eldar could have been an Eldar warrior for millenia before switching paths and becoming a chef.
Eldar switch paths on a whim so long as they do it before getting lost on the path and becoming an exarch, so the idea that a Guardian will consistently have less combat experience than an aspect warrior is fallacious.
On the one hand, it's unfortunate to see how anything below BS4 is increasingly seen as simply unacceptable and everything in any army that see's itself as any more "elite" than IG getting boosted to BS4...largely just "because".
On the other hand, there's good justification for Scouts being WS4/BS4, they are supposedly Space Marines in every manner but having the Black Carapace for Power Armor, and had WS4/BS4 up until 5E (unlike Guardians who *always* had WS3/BS3 until 6E) so it's more a return to their "original" stats.
Guardians and all eldar vehicles moving to BS4 made no sense to me. Conscript Eldar apparently have the same WS and BS as warrior eldar who spend millenia honing their skills.
That conscript Eldar could have been an Eldar warrior for millenia before switching paths and becoming a chef.
Eldar switch paths on a whim so long as they do it before getting lost on the path and becoming an exarch, so the idea that a Guardian will consistently have less combat experience than an aspect warrior is fallacious.
And a Guardsman may have been a keen hunter before he got conscripted... BS4 Guardsmen justified?
On the one hand, it's unfortunate to see how anything below BS4 is increasingly seen as simply unacceptable and everything in any army that see's itself as any more "elite" than IG getting boosted to BS4...largely just "because".
On the other hand, there's good justification for Scouts being WS4/BS4, they are supposedly Space Marines in every manner but having the Black Carapace for Power Armor, and had WS4/BS4 up until 5E (unlike Guardians who *always* had WS3/BS3 until 6E) so it's more a return to their "original" stats.
Guardians and all eldar vehicles moving to BS4 made no sense to me. Conscript Eldar apparently have the same WS and BS as warrior eldar who spend millenia honing their skills.
That conscript Eldar could have been an Eldar warrior for millenia before switching paths and becoming a chef.
Eldar switch paths on a whim so long as they do it before getting lost on the path and becoming an exarch, so the idea that a Guardian will consistently have less combat experience than an aspect warrior is fallacious.
But didn't they lose all their talents of their former path as soon as they shifted? Or am I remembering something wrong here?
That's always been kind of the case and kind of not.
It makes sense that they'd keep the BS/WS but not the special rules like bs2 snap shots or infiltrate. The profile skills are easy to retain because they don't lose the coordination and muscle memory. The special rules are the things they have to deliberately assume a murderer's mentality for. I think it's fine for what it is, it doesn't make people take guardians, at any rate.
The premise of this thread is preposterous. There's a good post up the thread, that bs4 scouts are terrible. Their weapons are not really good against most things, and if you do want to kill them it is really easy to get ap4 ignores cover these days.
Thats a gross generalization of people, and a large underestimate of the number of Volunteers that didn't join out of any desire to serve only out of a desire to reap the rewards. I can't tell you how many times I heard people say "I never joined the military to fight wars."
Those people join the Army, Air Force, Coast Guard, or Navy.
No one who wants to reap benefits without the drawbacks signs with the Marines, because it is easier to join another branch for the same or better benefits.
I always figured the Imperial Navy served the same function as America's less-than-awesome branches.
Gee Dubs just did the 3rd Edition and gave the Scouts back what they've been missing since.
Vanilla Marines have waited such boosts for YEARS which the new codex provides. Finally they're something else than Amazingly Average(TM). Stop whining.
(The autocannon option for scouts, however, is something I heavily doubt to make a comeback too even though it's my insane, impossible dream I cling on)
Scouts are noobs. Many of them have just learned that the right way to use a gun is to point the right hand toward the enemy and press the little thingy. They have been selected at 14 for their ability to beat to death other 14 years old boys with pointy sticks. They spent the next few years constantly under various medical operations. They are now sent to the field for the first times.
Guardsmen are the best among the population of a planet, sent out after an extensive training. Catachan need to now how to fight against nightmarish animals just to survive. Cadians and Korpsers have been trained from early childhood to shoot guns.
WS3 BS3 for scouts.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
They dont learn to shoot in the Devastator Companies, they learn to shoot as a Scout, hence SNIPERS. Which they shouldn't even be if they are the newest least trained guys.
I always figured the rifles were just a way to let them feel like they were contributing while keeping the hell out of the way of the actual battle.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Scouts are noobs. Many of them have just learned that the right way to use a gun is to point the right hand toward the enemy and press the little thingy. They have been selected at 14 for their ability to beat to death other 14 years old boys with pointy sticks. They spent the next few years constantly under various medical operations. They are now sent to the field for the first times.
Guardsmen are the best among the population of a planet, sent out after an extensive training. Catachan need to now how to fight against nightmarish animals just to survive. Cadians and Korpsers have been trained from early childhood to shoot guns.
WS3 BS3 for scouts.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Scouts are noobs. Many of them have just learned that the right way to use a gun is to point the right hand toward the enemy and press the little thingy. They have been selected at 14 for their ability to beat to death other 14 years old boys with pointy sticks. They spent the next few years constantly under various medical operations. They are now sent to the field for the first times.
Guardsmen are the best among the population of a planet, sent out after an extensive training. Catachan need to now how to fight against nightmarish animals just to survive. Cadians and Korpsers have been trained from early childhood to shoot guns.
WS3 BS3 for scouts.
When they are selected and how much training they go through depends on the chapter, some like the Red Scorpions select children the year they are born and train them their whole lives. Even those that recruit late will have varying training methods. The Scouts you see wont be 14 year old boys they just picked up, those are in Codex Chapters Neophytes, they become Scouts after receiving training and the implants other than the Black Carapace. We dont know how long he scout training is, but what we do know is that you're not a Scout for just two years before being shoved off into one of the main companies, you are there to learn everything, to be able to fight as a Marine should and you remain there until you have proven yourself and a slot opens up.
Now say that you are the newest Scout in the Company, unless you are really good or the Chapter suffers heavy losses you won't become a full Battle Brother anytime soon, those that have been there longer, have the most experience an have proven themselves will be selected. That's why I'd have them WS/BS4. Your average Scout will have seen more and done more in their life than an Imperial Guard Vet or even Storm Trooper in some cases.
Furyou Miko wrote:
VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
They dont learn to shoot in the Devastator Companies, they learn to shoot as a Scout, hence SNIPERS. Which they shouldn't even be if they are the newest least trained guys.
I always figured the rifles were just a way to let them feel like they were contributing while keeping the hell out of the way of the actual battle.
Why would you want to keep the guys you are supposed to be teaching to fight out of battle? (In the context of how Chapters work) They are supposed to be learning through doing. Anyway giving them the Sniper Rifles wouldnt make sense unless they have gone through a lengthy training process to ensure the Scout is capable of wielding the weapon with the proper effect.
Twelve. :p They are selected at twelve years old.
They are selected when ever the Chapter gets around to selecting them between the time they reach puberty and when the male body ceases maturing. Most of the time it would be 12-14 but there will be variance, particularly when it comes to them saying they have fought wars (yes several) and in some cases have families.
Scouts have all the implants other than the black carapace.
Scouts have had years of far more vigorous training than guardsmen or storm troopers.
Scouts are likely to have seen more combat than veteran guardsmen.
10 scouts are 50 points morr expensive than veterans(even if you take the +1t and +1s as 1point per model each, grenadiers doctrine, and then the +1 ws as 1ppm, and finally bolters over lasguns at 1ppm, then you get the same cost.
Veteran guardsmen should not have been able to out-shoot scouts, same for ratlings vs sniperscouts
If Recon Squads are/were 4s across the board, I don't see why Scout squads would be any different.
Anyways, in real life, you don't go into Recon to train how to be a soldier. You go into Recon because you are more skilled than the other soldiers. Not familiar enough with how GW fluffizes their Scouts, but it would be kind of dumb if they were "noobs" or raw recruits on their way to Power Armor.
Why would you want to keep the guys you are supposed to be teaching to fight out of battle? (In the context of how Chapters work) They are supposed to be learning through doing. Anyway giving them the Sniper Rifles wouldnt make sense unless they have gone through a lengthy training process to ensure the Scout is capable of wielding the weapon with the proper effect.
Are all fresh full brothers moved in to devastator squads, so they lack of expiriance costs their battlebrothers lifes . Would make sense that they want to keep less armored scouts just as far away as possible from actual fighting.
Why would you want to keep the guys you are supposed to be teaching to fight out of battle? (In the context of how Chapters work) They are supposed to be learning through doing. Anyway giving them the Sniper Rifles wouldnt make sense unless they have gone through a lengthy training process to ensure the Scout is capable of wielding the weapon with the proper effect.
Are all fresh full brothers moved in to devastator squads, so they lack of expiriance costs their battlebrothers lifes . Would make sense that they want to keep less armored scouts just as far away as possible from actual fighting.
They are moved to the Devastator Squads to learn the correct use of Heavy Weapons and the correct deployment of them, not because they have a lack of experience that would get their Brothers killed. Just like they are then moved to the Assault Companies to learn the proper methods of Asssault and CQB.
A Scout's first job should be just that, to Scout, to observe the enemy so they may report to those on high troop movements, equipment ect. They are also there to learn about the enemies they will come to fight as well as engage them. From I think the past 3 codexs "...preparing the way for the main advance by infiltrating enemy lines, sabotaging and gathering intelligence - causing as much chaos and disruption as possible."
If you are sending men behind enemy lines you want, no NEED them to be well trained and know how to fight in case their mission goes awry. As you can see their mission is not to stay away from the actual fighting, but to go look for trouble behind enemy lines.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Scouts are noobs. Many of them have just learned that the right way to use a gun is to point the right hand toward the enemy and press the little thingy. They have been selected at 14 for their ability to beat to death other 14 years old boys with pointy sticks. They spent the next few years constantly under various medical operations. They are now sent to the field for the first times.
Guardsmen are the best among the population of a planet, sent out after an extensive training. Catachan need to now how to fight against nightmarish animals just to survive. Cadians and Korpsers have been trained from early childhood to shoot guns.
WS3 BS3 for scouts.
Scouts are still super-humans that have been genetically modified. The best of human soldiers are still just human.
Guardsmen are the best among the population of a planet, sent out after an extensive training. Catachan need to now how to fight against nightmarish animals just to survive. Cadians and Korpsers have been trained from early childhood to shoot guns.
WS3 BS3 for scouts.
If the High Lords actually got to pick who left and who stayed in PDF forces, I'm sure that'd be true. In reality, the Imperium is a bureaucratic nightmare, and the local governor has plenty of options to ensure that the troops that stay on the planet are the best so the governor can protect his own ass if the planet is invaded. If I were a governor, I sure as gak wouldn't keep the crappy troops as my PDF- I'd send them off to die on some Emperor-forsaken world. You can bet that most Imperial governors are smart enough to see it that way.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alcibiades wrote: Marines, Chaos Marines, Necrons, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Sisters are BS4. Oh yeah, Skitarii now.
Orks are BS2
Guard, Tyranids, most Daemons and Chaos Engines, and Tau are BS3.
So almost half the factions are BS3 or less.
Reread, this is, "Over half of the factions are BS4."
This even fails to take into account how much BS4 is in the Guard codex.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: When they are selected and how much training they go through depends on the chapter, some like the Red Scorpions select children the year they are born and train them their whole lives.
Most select them through an idiotic fight to the death or similar process.
Yeah, they had to spend a few years on an operation table before. I heard lying on the floor (Beds are for the weaks! Beds encourage sloth, sloth is heresy!) trying to recover from surgery was not the best way to earn experience and skill.
Kommissar Kel wrote: Scouts have had years of far more vigorous training than guardsmen or storm troopers.
Someone has not read about Stormtrooper training.
EmpNortonII wrote: Scouts are still super-humans that have been genetically modified. The best of human soldiers are still just human.
I would take human elite over super-human noob anyday.
EmpNortonII wrote: If the High Lords actually got to pick who left and who stayed in PDF forces, I'm sure that'd be true. In reality, the Imperium is a bureaucratic nightmare, and the local governor has plenty of options to ensure that the troops that stay on the planet are the best so the governor can protect his own ass if the planet is invaded.
The Imperium may be a bureaucratic nightmare, but trying to cheat on your tithes is at your own peril. Which would you prefer, peace of mind, or taking a huge risk for a little reward? I am sure there are exception though. Just like there are regiments like the Chem Dogs. Give me 5 or 6 different Imperial Guard codex, like we have 5 or 6 marines codex, and I will be able to properly represent those deviations from the norm . And then there are Stormtroopers/Scions, which are a huge deal above the rest. Those should certainly wipe their behinds with the scouts at a shooting contest. Or a bad-ass contest .
They are selected when ever the Chapter gets around to selecting them between the time they reach puberty and when the male body ceases maturing. Most of the time it would be 12-14 but there will be variance, particularly when it comes to them saying they have fought wars (yes several) and in some cases have families.
Implantation must start between 12 and 14 years of age, or it fails.
The only ones who have families or fight in wars are ones who, like the Fenrisians, induct ten-year-olds into war parties and expect a villager to be married by fourteen because if they don't start breeding as soon as they're biologically capable of it, they won't have enough warriors to survive the war in ten years time.
As always i think its GW trying to push more models, I have never really like scouts (the look and i hate painting faces) and i assume a lot of people don't field them either.
Generally GW buff the models that don't seem to be selling or played to get people to buy E.g tomb blades for necron decurion
Poly Ranger wrote: Forget any fluff justification at the moment guys and lets try and explain again how it is fair for BA, DA and SW players game wise?
We don't know that DA Scouts will not be WS/BS4. In fact I would be surprised if they were not.
SW already have it, and BA have so many other options that WS/BS3 on Scouts isn't going to hurt them too badly.
Poly Ranger wrote: Forget any fluff justification at the moment guys and lets try and explain again how it is fair for BA, DA and SW players game wise?
How is it fair that those people have an extra snowflake codex, you mean.
Poly Ranger wrote: Forget any fluff justification at the moment guys and lets try and explain again how it is fair for BA, DA and SW players game wise?
We don't know that DA Scouts will not be WS/BS4. In fact I would be surprised if they were not.
SW already have it, and BA have so many other options that WS/BS3 on Scouts isn't going to hurt them too badly.
Are you kidding? We have 2 options for troops; tac marines and scouts. And our tac marines can't take grav cannons. Bs/ws3 scouts will hurt us massively in comparison to SM scouts just on power levels.
What do BA scouts get:
- Furious Charge
What do SM scouts get:
-BS4
-WS4
-Various chapter tactics
-Access to an incredibly cheap, fast, assault transport/gunboat.
For the same price.
And the reaction is that 'oh well, BA will be ok'. NO we won't. It is completely unbalanced in comparison and after having such a poor codex for years we are given 3 or 4 months before its made awful once again (not just by SMs). After paying more points for our troops for years we now get to pay the same but SM get inflated stats or a weapon that gives them a far higher damage output point for point.
Poly Ranger wrote: Forget any fluff justification at the moment guys and lets try and explain again how it is fair for BA, DA and SW players game wise?
How is it fair that those people have an extra snowflake codex, you mean.
Yeh I suppose your right. The game would be much better if we took away the flavour and instead just made it red team, blue team and yellow team (not green team though as that is a secondary colour and much too flavourful).
I'm totally fine with the change, both fluff and crunch wise.
Fluffwise scouts are receiving the most vigorous training in the imperium (besides the super elite like grey knights), it makes sense that they should be able to shoot straighter than most guardsmen.
Some people are citing the fact that they are young and inexperienced. However, intensity of the training aside, how long does scout training last? Given that a SM is expected to live for several centuries it may be the case that scout training lasts for several years - enough time to learn to be better than the average guardsman, especially when you consider that when not fighting the SM have literally noting else to do except train. No guard duty, no policing, no humanitarian missions etc, all they have to do is train, and fight. A guardsman who has been on active duty for the same amount of time as a scout will have received far less weapons training and combat experience.
Crunchwise I don't think it is anything to worry about. It is not game changing in the slightest, and simply helps a unit with mediocre shooting ability do a little more damage. BS4 also means that scout snipers are less of a joke too.
Edit: On the topic of scouts, but without starting a new thread, does anyone know if the scout box comes with 5 bolters /shotguns, or do they always come with a heavy bolter and sergeant?
Just considering how easy it would be to get a scout force built up.
Peregrine wrote: no. Enough of this stat inflation where everyone gets to be BS/WS 4. Why even bother having BS stats when Tau and IG are the only armies with BS 3? Just make shooting a flat 3+ to hit for everyone and give orks a special rule that they only hit on 6s.
Col. Dash wrote: I imagine they would have been at the range and in the sawdust pits fighting almost every day, all day from the time they start getting implants.
That's nice and all, but aren't the power armours supposed to augment you in some way? Because if you're trying to make fluff reasons for the rules here, then the power armour now is basically a heavier kevlar armour. It's not augmenting targeting or fighting prowess.
Well, I for one welcome our stat increase overlord and eagerly awaiting our lords giving all marines +1 to S and T. It makes sense, gameplay-wise, for scout to be BS4, since they had been the only ones in the army capable of taking sniper rifles. For them to be useful (given how few bodies they have in a squad) they needed to be more accurate to justify bringing them on the table.
On the other hand, at this juncture there's little point in running a Wolf Scout for me. As it'd be more economical to take ally detachments with sniper scouts and save points for something that punches harder. also, I smell a new SW codex looming with nothing but the cost of the Wolf Scouts dropped and +1 WSBS to the Blood Claws and the Skyclaws. ..Yeah.
Poly Ranger wrote: The game would be much better if we took away the flavour and instead just made it red team, blue team and yellow team (not green team though as that is a secondary colour and much too flavourful).
Have you heard about it? The game is not only about space marines! Shocking revelation, I know. What about we increase the flavor by adding more things that are not space marines of different color, but actual different, flavorful stuff, instead of focusing on making sure the red marines scouts are different from the blue marine scouts? Certainly, you said it yourself, having the red marine scouts and the blue marine scouts being different is insufferably unfair, so certainly you must be thrilled by a decision that would put all the color marines on the same footing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Big Blind Bill wrote: Fluffwise scouts are receiving the most vigorous training in the imperium (besides the super elite like grey knights)
Poly Ranger wrote: The game would be much better if we took away the flavour and instead just made it red team, blue team and yellow team (not green team though as that is a secondary colour and much too flavourful).
Have you heard about it? The game is not only about space marines! Shocking revelation, I know. What about we increase the flavor by adding more things that are not space marines of different color, but actual different, flavorful stuff, instead of focusing on making sure the red marines scouts are different from the blue marine scouts? Certainly, you said it yourself, having the red marine scouts and the blue marine scouts being different is insufferably unfair, so certainly you must be thrilled by a decision that would put all the color marines on the same footing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Big Blind Bill wrote: Fluffwise scouts are receiving the most vigorous training in the imperium (besides the super elite like grey knights)
Nope.
Tbf I do understand where you are coming from. However the play style of BA, SW and GK (not DA so much imo but others may disagree) are drastically different from normal SM. They also contain multiple units which are completely different. So whilst they *could* be rolled into the same dex, it would make it increadibly difficult to do so and would possibly invalidate many peoples playing collection.
IMO a WS grav biker army is completely different in play style, stats and look do a gold and black horde of the BA.
Also you talk about variety and adding further non-marine armies. I agree. But we don't add to that variety by taking away marine ones. The idea that marines make up half the avaliable armies is a fallacy. Have a look:
SM GKs BAs
DAs SWs CSMs
Orks
Tyranids
AM MT Deamons
R&Hs Skittari
Mechanicum
Eldar
DE Harlequins
Necrons
SoB Tau
IKs
6/21 or 2/7.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oops. Forgot inquisition!
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Certainly, you said it yourself, having the red marine scouts and the blue marine scouts being different is insufferably unfair, so certainly you must be thrilled by a decision that would put all the color marines on the same footing.
Agreed, I am all for WS/BS4 scouts for DA and BA too.
Poly Ranger wrote: Tbf I do understand where you are coming from. However the play style of BA, SW and GK (not DA so much imo but others may disagree) are drastically different from normal SM.
Ah, let us be honest. The playstyle is going to change through each edition of the rules and the codecies to match the cheesiest thing. But every books except GK shares the tools to do the same stuff. Both have bikes, terminators, rhinos, assault units with jump packs, units full of heavy weapons, predator, land raider, … You can basically do the same builds with every book, it is just that some book will make some builds more powerful.
Poly Ranger wrote: They also contain multiple units which are completely different.
Give me a unique unit that is not “that unit, but made MOAR POWERFUL because in this chapter, they are MOAR UNIQUE!!!11", or a tank with a weapon swap that is unique for no good reason, or a flyer that is unique for no good reason, or a special character.
Poly Ranger wrote: So whilst they *could* be rolled into the same dex, it would make it increadibly difficult to do so and would possibly invalidate many peoples playing collection.
Nah, just play the elite unique stuff as the normal stuff, and allow the weapon swap on tanks to everybody.
Poly Ranger wrote: IMO a WS grav biker army is completely different in play style, stats and look do a gold and black horde of the BA.
Except you can get an army full of BA on bikes and you can get a white scar army with plenty of jump packs. It is the same units, except swapped around. It is the same thing. It is like saying a Tau army where firewarriors and kroots become elites while vespids and broadsides become troops, and you add in a few special rules like Rage on kroots and vespids, and bang! diversity. Nah ah, that is just more of the same.
Poly Ranger wrote: But we don't add to that variety by taking away marine ones. The idea that marines make up half the avaliable armies is a fallacy.
Sure you do. Marines may not make up half of the available army, but they take the lion's share of GW's efforts. You cannot compared full codicies to codices with just 1 or 2 units in them, that is just a fallacy. And you cannot put on the same level codices that get a new version with new models literally every edition, and codices that never got any printed books or new models for THE LAST 12 YEARS!
Sanguinary guard and death company are nothing like assault marines. They have jps. That is where it ends. You make Sanguinary Guard into AMs and they become nothing like what they are now. It would be like saying, count all orks as grots.
As well as those two:
Sanguinary priests are unique to BA.
Libby dreads are unique to BA.
Furioso dreads are unique to BA.
Overcharged engines are unique to BA.
Baal preds are unique to BA (although probably the least unique since they lost scout and became HS).
Sanguine psychic powers are unique to BA.
A ton of SCs are unique to BA.
And ALL of these completely change the avaliable playstyles of the army.
Poly Ranger wrote: Sanguinary guard and death company are nothing like assault marines. They have jps. That is where it ends. You make Sanguinary Guard into AMs and they become nothing like what they are now.
They are both assault marines but “MOAR POWERFUL” because BA whatever.
Though I agree vanguard vets (or was that the other guard vets) should be able to take jump pack. There you go, you have your elite assault troupes with jump pack now!
Poly Ranger wrote: Baal preds are unique to BA (although probably the least unique since they lost scout and became HS).
Swapping from one place to another on the FOC is NOT diversity. It is just swapping the same stuff around. And then it is just a different loadout, am I right?
Psychic powers? This things that changes literally every edition?
Ah! I am sure the warp is very different depending on which color is the armor of the guy using it. Certainly you need a RED armor to cast this spell!
Poly Ranger wrote: And ALL of these completely change the avaliable playstyles of the army.
No. Literally no. You will get slight variation in the power level of your elite troops with jump pack, but they will still be the same elite troups with jump pack. You will get variation on the power level of your guy giving defensive buff like FnP, but he will still be the guy buffing around. You will still play dreadnought, who will still be walker, with some who will still be specialized in close combat, even though their exact rules and power level will change. You will still get predators, that will still shoot at stuff, it is just that someone who painted their marines blue will also be able to use the same weapon loadout on their predators. And you will get new psychic powers replacing the old ones like every edition before. If new psychic powers breaks your playstyle, then your playstyle is broken every new edition…
What playstyle would you not be able to play with C:SM? And I mean playstyle. For instance, a full jump pack assault army is a playstyle. Having Sanguinary Guard with the exact same rules as before is not a playstyle.
EmpNortonII wrote: Scouts are still super-humans that have been genetically modified. The best of human soldiers are still just human.
I would take human elite over super-human noob anyday.
EmpNortonII wrote: If the High Lords actually got to pick who left and who stayed in PDF forces, I'm sure that'd be true. In reality, the Imperium is a bureaucratic nightmare, and the local governor has plenty of options to ensure that the troops that stay on the planet are the best so the governor can protect his own ass if the planet is invaded.
The Imperium may be a bureaucratic nightmare, but trying to cheat on your tithes is at your own peril. Which would you prefer, peace of mind, or taking a huge risk for a little reward?
I am sure there are exception though. Just like there are regiments like the Chem Dogs. Give me 5 or 6 different Imperial Guard codex, like we have 5 or 6 marines codex, and I will be able to properly represent those deviations from the norm .
And then there are Stormtroopers/Scions, which are a huge deal above the rest. Those should certainly wipe their behinds with the scouts at a shooting contest. Or a bad-ass contest .
... and by the time a scout hits the field, he's likely had several years of training as a super-human.
feth, Guardians are reservists that get BS4. Why? feth if I know, but presumably it has a lot to do with being Eldar, since there are no more BS3 Eldar. Being superhuman goes a long, long way.
It's hardly cheating on your tithes to send the bodies you don't want on the planet to begin with. Besides, Guardsmen are there to die by the millions fighting on pieces of land. The IoM literally could not care less about the lives of Guardsmen. Odds are they'll all be dead before anyone notices they're gone.
... and considering how often people cheat on their taxes, steal, speed in traffic, etc, it is human nature to see what you can get away with... and in the IoM, you can get away with a LOT.
Poly Ranger wrote: Sanguinary guard and death company are nothing like assault marines. They have jps. That is where it ends. You make Sanguinary Guard into AMs and they become nothing like what they are now.
They are both assault marines but “MOAR POWERFUL” because BA whatever.
Though I agree vanguard vets (or was that the other guard vets) should be able to take jump pack. There you go, you have your elite assault troupes with jump pack now!
Poly Ranger wrote: Baal preds are unique to BA (although probably the least unique since they lost scout and became HS).
Swapping from one place to another on the FOC is NOT diversity. It is just swapping the same stuff around. And then it is just a different loadout, am I right?
Psychic powers? This things that changes literally every edition?
Ah! I am sure the warp is very different depending on which color is the armor of the guy using it. Certainly you need a RED armor to cast this spell!
Poly Ranger wrote: And ALL of these completely change the avaliable playstyles of the army.
No. Literally no. You will get slight variation in the power level of your elite troops with jump pack, but they will still be the same elite troups with jump pack. You will get variation on the power level of your guy giving defensive buff like FnP, but he will still be the guy buffing around. You will still play dreadnought, who will still be walker, with some who will still be specialized in close combat, even though their exact rules and power level will change. You will still get predators, that will still shoot at stuff, it is just that someone who painted their marines blue will also be able to use the same weapon loadout on their predators. And you will get new psychic powers replacing the old ones like every edition before. If new psychic powers breaks your playstyle, then your playstyle is broken every new edition…
What playstyle would you not be able to play with C:SM? And I mean playstyle. For instance, a full jump pack assault army is a playstyle. Having Sanguinary Guard with the exact same rules as before is not a playstyle.
By your definition, if stats do not matter to a playstyle then ork stormboyz is the same as playing with assault marines. Necron warrior squads are the same as tac marines, just different stats.
If stats don't effect the play style at all, why don't we have just one army book for EVERYONE?
Automatically Appended Next Post: In fact, why don't we just have 11 units alltogether in the game?
EmpNortonII wrote: feth, Guardians are reservists that get BS4. Why? feth if I know, but presumably it has a lot to do with being Eldar, since there are no more BS3 Eldar.
Eldar kind of have a thing with being focused and learning, that goes way deeper than the psycho-indoctrination marines get. Certainly the marine psyche is much, much closer to the human psyche than the eldar psyche.
EmpNortonII wrote: Besides, Guardsmen are there to die by the millions fighting on pieces of land. The IoM literally could not care less about the lives of Guardsmen. Odds are they'll all be dead before anyone notices they're gone.
Omniscient narrator has always says the best get to be in the Imperial Guard, and the not-as-good in the PDF. And the IoM cares a lot about taxes.
EmpNortonII wrote: ... and considering how often people cheat on their taxes, steal, speed in traffic, etc, it is human nature to see what you can get away with...
Have you ever seen your neighbor's home with him and his whole family inside locked up and set on fire, because he has a speeding ticket? No? Imagine living in a word where not only this happens regularly, but sometime you will get no penalty for a speeding ticket, and at other time this will happen to you because the radar that measured your speed was defective, and you have no recourse or warning. Welcome to the life of an Imperial Governor. Feel like driving a bit faster than the limit, just to check what you can get away with?
Poly Ranger wrote: By your definition, if stats do not matter to a playstyle then ork stormboyz is the same as playing with assault marines.
Nope. The stormboy is a relatively cheap, not so resilient model with an unreliable jump pack. He is not as good as a normal marine in a jet pack (ASM) that is in turn not as good as a veteran in a jump pack (vanguard with jump pack/sanguinary guard).
What matters is that the vanguard or sanguinary guard is more powerful and more expensive pointwise than the regular jump ASM, which is in turn more powerful and expensive pointwise as the stormboy. That way you go by the fluff and all. But the exact specifics of how the vanguard/sanguinary guard are more powerful? Details. This is stuff that will not come naturally from the miniature or the fluff, and is quite arbitrary anyway.
Poly Ranger wrote: Necron warrior squads are the same as tac marines, just different stats.
Nope, necron warriors have an identity as almost soulless automaton with next to none individuality that are able to withstand terrible punishment and still repair themselves. This is represented by the rules, making them have no unit leader, no special weapons, and the reanimation protocols. What sets them apart from marine is the fluff, which is in turn translated into rules. Sanguinary guard are literally just one kind of elite marines with jump pack, something that could happen in any other chapter that is not Blood Angels.
In his boots, I would make a bigger fuss of your average nose-picking Shoota Boy being a more skillful melee combatant than the supposedly elite Battle Sisters.
Celestians? Never heard of it. There are no models for them on GW's website. There never was. My close combat troops look like this : They are WS4 for those with shields and BS5 for those with two swords. They will charge for 4 attacks each, at I6, BS5, S4, AP3. Oh, and they will reroll to hit, and reroll to wound too. Fancy letting them charge your chaos marines? I am sure they can deal with those silly berserkers just fine.
Ashiraya wrote: Edit: my post count tells me I am being devilish right now.
My post count got me out of the Not-A-Sororitas-rank hell, at least! Bow before the Pious Palatine! Next will be Canoness?
Nah, that is just hyperbolic stuff that get thrown around all the time. The thing is, they say the same about other units too.
In this case no, no one other than space marines/grey knights/custodes/primarchs are described as being mankind's greatest warriors. More holy (SoB), better equipped (mechanicus), better tanks (IG), but nowhere can you find it said of another imperial faction that they are better and more well trained warriors than the space marines. (expect assassins, but they are a bit of a special case).
Space marines exist solely to act as the Imperium's shock troops and will have literally nothing else to do besides train and kill heretics.
Other units in the imperial will be as skilled as scouts, through experience, training or a combination of both. However, it is logical that the genetically enhanced superhumans will get the best training to go along with the best armour and weapons available..
Why invest so many resources on making and equipping a space marine, if you are going to give them half arsed training.
Want to look at the entry for crusaders
What are we looking for exactly? It says they are very devout... not that they get a lot of training. Their stats in the game don't support the idea that they get lots of training either.
I know scouts are only space marine recruits, but the level and intensity of their training and combat missions mean that I am perfectly happy to see them have a stat boost.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I also think Stormtroopers get the same amount of training. Does my obsession with them have limits?
No, seeing as how you also got upset at Assault Marines getting Eviscerators.
What is the link between eviscerators and stormtroopers?
Big Blind Bill wrote: In this case no, no one other than space marines/grey knights/custodes/primarchs are described as being mankind's greatest warriors.
So we already got 4 different things all described as the bestest of the best. This is kind of telling, is it not?
Big Blind Bill wrote: More holy (SoB), better equipped (mechanicus), better tanks (IG), but nowhere can you find it said of another imperial faction that they are better and more well trained warriors than the space marines. (expect assassins, but they are a bit of a special case).
You quoted a bunch already. Assasins, Custodes and Grey Knights are better trained. Sisters and Scions are trained just as well, even though they do lack the implants.
Big Blind Bill wrote: Space marines exist solely to act as the Imperium's shock troops and will have literally nothing else to do besides train and kill heretics.
Do you realize this is exactly the same for Scions and Sisters? Literally? There is not a single day when they could train and do not do it. Not a single one.
So, moot point.
Big Blind Bill wrote: However, it is logical that the genetically enhanced superhumans will get the best training to go along with the best armour and weapons available..
Why invest so many resources on making and equipping a space marine, if you are going to give them half arsed training.
It is pretty logical to give the best training to scions, which are literally the most elite men of the Imperial Guard.
It is pretty logical to give the best training to sisters.
What are we looking for exactly? It says they are very devout... not that they get a lot of training.
You have not read it, have you?
It has always said they dedicate their life to martial perfection. And if you want to go by stats, look at the DCA stats. Unaugmented human. Pwn any scoot, and would even wipe the floor with vanguard.
Big Blind Bill wrote: I know scouts are only space marine recruits, but the level and intensity of their training and combat missions mean that I am perfectly happy to see them have a stat boost.
I guess it depends if we are talking about a scout that is just entering the scouts, or one that is one mission away from leaving the scouts. Those that leave are obviously BS4. Those that just enters seems better fitted for BS3.
The 4 I mentioned as humanity's best are all space marines of some form or another. So no, it is not telling.
Sisters of battle do not exclusively act as shock troops. They are the only standing force that the ecclesiarchy is allowed to maintain. Therefore they are much more likely to be a garrisoning force or standing army rather than fulfilling the same function as space marines.
It is pretty logical to give the best training to scions, which are literally the most elite men of the Imperial Guard
They are given the best training, for their position. However, this position is below that of a space marine. Space marines have drill sergeants who have centuries of combat experience, scions do not.
I read what is written in codex: Inquisition. Nothing is said. But let us suppose it is, martial perfection and military training are not the same thing.
Going off the game stats, death cult assassins are certainly better trained than scouts. Crazy stats.
Big Blind Bill wrote: The 4 I mentioned as humanity's best are all space marines of some form or another.
No. Custodes are not, neither are primarchs. Assassins are not either. All those better than marines.
Big Blind Bill wrote: Sisters of battle do not exclusively act as shock troops. They are the only standing force that the ecclesiarchy is allowed to maintain. Therefore they are much more likely to be a garrisoning force or standing army rather than fulfilling the same function as space marines.
So what? You have shock troops expert at standing siege .
Big Blind Bill wrote: They are given the best training, for their position. However, this position is below that of a space marine. Space marines have drill sergeants who have centuries of combat experience, scions do not.
First, how do you know that? Certainly you are aware of juvenat that means a scion drill sergeant can live for many centuries.
Second, what kind of things have you not yet understood after the first 50 years of war, that you will suddenly realize after the 51th? There is just a limit to how good you can become with experience. At one point, you reach the limit, and you barely become better anymore.
The link is stupid then. Because I am just saying the most elite humans of the Imperium, like Scions (forget about Sisters if you have a problem with them), have better training than scouts. They start learning to shoot guns way earlier, and do not waste time trying to recover from extremely disrupting surgery.
Scions are still less well trained than marines though.
Marines are more elite than any other standard imperial force.
Scions might have received more total training than scouts, but that is only due to the fact that a scion could have been serving a for years, whereas a scout is a new recruit.
The level and intensity of scout training is above and beyond that of a scion.
No. Custodes are not, neither are primarchs. Assassins are not either. All those better than marines.
Grey Knights are a subtype of Marines, so that they are better says nothing.
No Primarchs fight for the Imperium today.
Custodes are not better warriors than Space Marines. Better duelists, better guards, but they are not trained in battlefield tactics or working as a team.
Similar is the Assassin, who is faster and more skilled, but who is an assassin, not a soldier. They are neither equipped, trained nor modified for war, just assassination. Besides, an Astartes can well defeat one 1v1 - in Soul Hunter, a Night Lords Apothecary took one down alone. She dodged his shots and charged, so he spat acid in her face. She staggered back and dodged another salvo, so he screamed loud enough to burst her eardrums. Blinded and deafened, she was easy prey.
Ashiraya wrote: Custodes are not better warriors than Space Marines. Better duelists, better guards, but they are not trained in battlefield tactics or working as a team.
The Custodes are teached by none other than the Emperor himself. Are we going to take the words of a salty Word Bearer for hard facts now?
Ashiraya wrote: Similar is the Assassin, who is faster and more skilled, but who is an assassin, not a soldier. They are neither equipped, trained nor modified for war, just assassination. Besides, an Astartes can well defeat one 1v1 - in Soul Hunter, a Night Lords Apothecary took one down alone. She dodged his shots and charged, so he spat acid in her face. She staggered back and dodged another salvo, so he screamed loud enough to burst her eardrums. Blinded and deafened, she was easy prey.
Yes, and every other Astartes is obvioulsy on Talos level right? You're being disingenuous here Ash, it's quite obvious to anyone, who has read the Night Lord series that Talos' psychic forsight and massive plot armor won him that fight against the assassin, whom I might add, was described in the book as being the better combatant of the two.
We know for a fact that Assassin commonly tears Astartes a new one, either directly on indirectly. If you find that hard to belive, then look up the "The Beheading" incident, where a hundred Eversor assassins butchered an entire space marine strike force.
Ashiraya wrote: Besides, an Astartes can well defeat one 1v1
And a Commissar can well defeat an Astartes 1v1. Therefore, a Comissar can well defeat an Assassin 1v1. Since an Assassin can defeat a primarch 1v1 (M'shen), it follows that a Comissar can well defeat a Primarch 1v1. Since a Primarch can well defeat the Emperor 1v1 (yeah, Horus vs Emperor + Sanguinus was 2v1 and yet Horus managed to wound to death the Emperor, so 1v1 it would have been a victory for Horus), therefore a Commissar can defeat the Emperor 1v1. And Scions get better training than Commissars. Thanks to Ashiaraya logic, a Scion is better than the Emperor.
Or maybe, that Astartes you were talking about was the protagonist of the book, with tons of plot armor and stuff, but Assassins are way better than marines .
They are trained as well as marines. They usually have more experience than scouts. They lack the genetic enhancement.
Why would you give scions lesser training? Unlike physical resources, like those necessary for the implants and power armors of astartes, training is not in limited supply.
Big Blind Bill wrote: Marines are more elite than any other standard imperial force.
This has no meaning. Plain and simple. How do you define “elite” here? How do you compare if a Titanicus legion is more or less elite than a space marine chapter?
Big Blind Bill wrote: The level and intensity of scout training is above and beyond that of a scion.
No. The scout does a little more thing in training that are related to his implants, and that is all there is to it.
No. The scout does a little more thing in training that are related to his implants, and that is all there is to it.
Lol. Right. So they spend years selecting, teaching and modifying a candidate to become a marine, and then forget to train him to do his job.
This has no meaning. Plain and simple. How do you define “elite” here?
It is very simple. Space marines are the elite of mankind's armies. They are above sisters of battle, they are above scions. This is a fact.
Scions in terms of being effective shock troops are basically a poor man's space marine. They are the best of the imperial guard, but that is still far behind a marine.
Their very existence in imperial forces is only due to the fact that there are not enough marines to go around, so they have to make do with what they have.
Except that the Astartes Scout has only been in training for two years by the time he's eighteen, what with spending the other sixteen years laid up on the operating table or recovery room, or as a child.
By the time he or she is eighteen years old, the Scion/Sororita has been in military training for at least six years. Normally closer to fifteen years.
Astartes don't even select recruits until the recruit is eleven. The Progena are selected for their role by the time they're six.
Big Blind Bill wrote: Lol. Right. So they spend years selecting, teaching and modifying a candidate to become a marine, and then forget to train him to do his job.
They do not. They just start later. Scions start training in the Scola Progenium.
Big Blind Bill wrote: Space marines are the elite of mankind's armies. They are above sisters of battle, they are above scions. This is a fact.
Space marines are slightly better due to the implants, and, in the case of scions, wargear. But in terms of training, they are not better. And in term of experience, the average scions beats the average scout hands down, and is definitely beaten by the average sternguard.
What, you are so much down your mary sue rabbit hole that you cannot accept the fact your rookies are rookies?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
j31c3n wrote: Obviously the only way to end this discussion is to concede that Space Marine Scouts should have the following statline:
WS2 BS2 S2 T2
And IG vets, Scions, and Sisters should all be:
WS5 BS5 S4 T4
What is wrong about about WS3/4 BS4 S3 T3 and WS3 BS3 S4 T4?
Seems fine to me. Seemed fine to GW too for quite a long time actually.
Furyou Miko wrote: Except that the Astartes Scout has only been in training for two years by the time he's eighteen, what with spending the other sixteen years laid up on the operating table or recovery room, or as a child.
By the time he or she is eighteen years old, the Scion/Sororita has been in military training for at least six years. Normally closer to fifteen years.
Astartes don't even select recruits until the recruit is eleven. The Progena are selected for their role by the time they're six.
No, Neophytes undergo training even when they're undergoing the surgeries, because feth bedside manner. For example there's a hilarious scene in Damnation Crusade where a Neophyte is shut in a room with a nutjob failed aspirant who has degenerated into an animal. The Neophyte knows very well that thanks to recent surgeries, if he takes a punch, he dies.
And Chapters wonder why they have such high mortality rates with recruits.
That's debatable. Scions/Stormtroopers are trained to insane levels from very early ages, often earlier than Space Marines, with training that's grueling and brutal. They don't have the genetic enhancement however.
Custodes are not better warriors than Space Marines. Better duelists, better guards, but they are not trained in battlefield tactics or working as a team.
By many definitions, that *would* make them better Warriors, it would make them inferior *soldiers*.
Custodes are not intended to fight the same types of battles as Space Marines. They're a "watcher of the watchers", they're not a conventional combat force, but they are absolutely trained in tactics and working as a team. In every instance of them fighting Space Marines that I can recall, they typically wipe the floor with the Space Marines. IIRC a squad of Custodes slays a company of Thousand Sons without a casualty in the Horus Heresy Visions book. But they're even more absurdly limited in numbers than Space Marines are, and weren't, even in the Great Crusade, sent out to fight anything except by the Emperor's side in close physical proximity.
They have a different role and different capabilities, but man for man and squad for squad, they're obviously superior to Space Marines. Given that they don't take the field in the 41st millenium unless it's in direct defense of the Imperial Palace however, they're largely irrelevant.
Similar is the Assassin, who is faster and more skilled, but who is an assassin, not a soldier. They are neither equipped, trained nor modified for war, just assassination. Besides, an Astartes can well defeat one 1v1 - in Soul Hunter, a Night Lords Apothecary took one down alone. She dodged his shots and charged, so he spat acid in her face. She staggered back and dodged another salvo, so he screamed loud enough to burst her eardrums. Blinded and deafened, she was easy prey.
At the hands of a prophetic, warp-touched Space Marine with visions of the future, and an augmented screaming ability, who was able to match blades with the Eldar Phoenix Lord Jain Zar. This was no ordinary Space Marine by any stretch of the imagination.
Likewise, in the book "Iron Warrior", when the Ultramarines discover that an Assassin is aboard their station, they react with almost terror at the presence and capability of such a monster, equating the Assassin (IIRC an Eversor) with something akin to a WMD, even though it's on their side, they're clearly uncomfortable with its existence, even in the face of direct attack by the forces of Chaos.
Assassins are a strategic asset only deployable on the orders of the High Lords of Terra, clearly typically capable of engaging Space Marines on a 1v1 basis and typically coming out on top, with equal or greater genetic manipulation and enhancement.
Still on my phone until Monday, so this will be painful. But let's see what I can do.
Vaktathi wrote:By many definitions, that *would* make them better Warriors, it would make them inferior *soldiers*.
Custodes are not intended to fight the same types of battles as Space Marines. They're a "watcher of the watchers", they're not a conventional combat force, but they are absolutely trained in tactics and working as a team. In every instance of them fighting Space Marines that I can recall, they typically wipe the floor with the Space Marines. IIRC a squad of Custodes slays a company of Thousand Sons without a casualty in the Horus Heresy Visions book. But they're even more absurdly limited in numbers than Space Marines are, and weren't, even in the Great Crusade, sent out to fight anything except by the Emperor's side in close physical proximity.
They have a different role and different capabilities, but man for man and squad for squad, they're obviously superior to Space Marines. Given that they don't take the field in the 41st millenium unless it's in direct defense of the Imperial Palace however, they're largely irrelevant.
Custodes are a... Difficult case. Much like Titans, they are better fighters than Astartes, but because they never leave the palace I am not sure if they qualify for 'foremost defenders of the imperium' that SM are titled in BL, in the rulebooks, in FW's books and site, etc.
Vaktathi wrote:At the hands of a prophetic, warp-touched Space Marine with visions of the future, and an augmented screaming ability, who was able to match blades with the Eldar Phoenix Lord Jain Zar. This was no ordinary Space Marine by any stretch of the imagination.
Likewise, in the book "Iron Warrior", when the Ultramarines discover that an Assassin is aboard their station, they react with almost terror at the presence and capability of such a monster, equating the Assassin (IIRC an Eversor) with something akin to a WMD, even though it's on their side, they're clearly uncomfortable with its existence, even in the face of direct attack by the forces of Chaos.
Assassins are a strategic asset only deployable on the orders of the High Lords of Terra, clearly typically capable of engaging Space Marines on a 1v1 basis and typically coming out on top, with equal or greater genetic manipulation and enhancement.
Mind you, he got rekt badly by Jain Zar, and he fought the Assassin centuries before fighting the Phoenix Lord. He also never used his prophetic abilities for actual combat.
How old is Iron Warrior and who wrote it? Times change, and if it's by Goto or something I'll be more sceptical
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Or maybe, that Astartes you were talking about was the protagonist of the book, with tons of plot armor and stuff, but Assassins are way better than marines
The way he defeated the assassin seemed rather logical and did not smell of plot armour. Have you read the scene? It is well written.
Furyou Miko wrote:Ashi's answer to that one is that the strike force was probably only fifty or so Marines. heh.
Plausible. The numbers were never given.
Redcruisair wrote:
The Custodes are teached by none other than the Emperor himself. Are we going to take the words of a salty Word Bearer for hard facts now?
But what did he train them at? They are better swordsmen and guards, for sure, but that alone won't make you the best warrior on the battlefield.
Yes, and every other Astartes is obvioulsy on Talos level right? You're being disingenuous here Ash, it's quite obvious to anyone, who has read the Night Lord series that Talos' psychic forsight and massive plot armor won him that fight against the assassin, whom I might add, was described in the book as being the better combatant of the two.
I explained above, but
1. He can't use his prophetic abilities for actual combat. It's vague visions of the future.
2. Talos has plot armour, for sure (they ambushed a BA squad who totally forgot to look up...) but not in that fight. His victory was logical. The Assassin would have won a fencing match, but there's more to fighting than fencing, which the Space Marine exploited to win.
Ashiraya wrote: The way he defeated the assassin seemed rather logical and did not smell of plot armour. Have you read the scene? It is well written.
Have you read the scene where Cain pwns some Khorne berserker?
You did not mention which kind of assassin it was. An Eversor would have ignored the acid and killed the marine anyway. A Vindicare would not have charged, just killed him from far away. A Callidus would have killed him from behind without him even knowing about it. So I guess she was a Culexus somehow fighting a non-psyker, or what?
Ashiraya wrote: Still on my phone until Monday, so this will be painful. But let's see what I can do.
Vaktathi wrote:By many definitions, that *would* make them better Warriors, it would make them inferior *soldiers*.
Custodes are not intended to fight the same types of battles as Space Marines. They're a "watcher of the watchers", they're not a conventional combat force, but they are absolutely trained in tactics and working as a team. In every instance of them fighting Space Marines that I can recall, they typically wipe the floor with the Space Marines. IIRC a squad of Custodes slays a company of Thousand Sons without a casualty in the Horus Heresy Visions book. But they're even more absurdly limited in numbers than Space Marines are, and weren't, even in the Great Crusade, sent out to fight anything except by the Emperor's side in close physical proximity.
They have a different role and different capabilities, but man for man and squad for squad, they're obviously superior to Space Marines. Given that they don't take the field in the 41st millenium unless it's in direct defense of the Imperial Palace however, they're largely irrelevant.
Custodes are a... Difficult case. Much like Titans, they are better fighters than Astartes, but because they never leave the palace I am not sure if they qualify for 'foremost defenders of the imperium' that SM are titled in BL, in the rulebooks, in FW's books and site, etc.
Yeah, they're not really something relevant in game terms as they have no representation at all.
Mind you, he got rekt badly by Jain Zar, and he fought the Assassin centuries before fighting the Phoenix Lord. He also never used his prophetic abilities for actual combat.
To him, the time difference was only about a century IIRC and about the only thing that could be pointed to that would be a qualitative improvement in his fighting capability was the acquisition of Aurm. He did get wrecked by Jain Zar, but did manage to inflict significant harm on her. Talos could not in any way be considered a typical marine. He was always clearly something "special", capable of matching blades with at least some degree of ability against characters which have always consistently been portrayed as vastly more capable than a typical Space Marine. Even though Kurze allowed himself to be killed, that was not known by anyone prior to his actual death, and it was very clearly felt that an Assassin like M'Shen possessed the capability to at least potentially slay the Primarch on the assumption that he would resist, which would indicate that everyone assumed the that such an assassin would have a combat capability far in excess of that of a typical Space Marine.
M'shen's death also felt rather, forced. An assassin has an unreal physical resiliency, for an assassin that's capable of undergoing dramatic bodily form changes, breaking bonds of flesh, bone and nervous system through "sheer willpower" as the dataslate defines it, acid being spit in her face seems somewhat trivial, and there's a reason Assassins are W3 beyond simple game mechanics, they're *tough*.
How old is Iron Warrior and who wrote it? Times change, and if it's by Goto or something I'll be more sceptical
It's part of the Honsou storyline, it was a limited print run in 2010, written by Graham McNeill.
Ashiraya wrote: The way he defeated the assassin seemed rather logical and did not smell of plot armour. Have you read the scene? It is well written.
Have you read the scene where Cain pwns some Khorne berserker?
One I discard because I find it significantly more implausible.
I am aware you don't agree on that, which is your prerogative.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vaktathi wrote: Even though Kurze allowed himself to be killed, that was not known by anyone prior to his actual death, and it was very clearly felt that an Assassin like M'Shen possessed the capability to at least potentially slay the Primarch on the assumption that he would resist, which would indicate that everyone assumed the that such an assassin would have a combat capability far in excess of that of a typical Space Marine.
Not known by anyone beforehand? But he told his entire Legion to stand down, let him be killed, and let M'shen escape afterward!
Vaktathi wrote: Even though Kurze allowed himself to be killed, that was not known by anyone prior to his actual death, and it was very clearly felt that an Assassin like M'Shen possessed the capability to at least potentially slay the Primarch on the assumption that he would resist, which would indicate that everyone assumed the that such an assassin would have a combat capability far in excess of that of a typical Space Marine.
Not known by anyone beforehand? But he told his entire Legion to stand down, let him be killed, and let M'shen escape afterward!
Not known by the Imperial forces or the Assassin. They clearly felt this individual was capable of at least potentially slaying a Primarch unwilling to die.
Ashiraya wrote: The way he defeated the assassin seemed rather logical and did not smell of plot armour. Have you read the scene? It is well written.
Have you read the scene where Cain pwns some Khorne berserker?
You did not mention which kind of assassin it was. An Eversor would have ignored the acid and killed the marine anyway. A Vindicare would not have charged, just killed him from far away. A Callidus would have killed him from behind without him even knowing about it. So I guess she was a Culexus somehow fighting a non-psyker, or what?
You...... don't know who M'shen was?
She was a Callidus, and no, Callidus Assassins are pretty much screwed if their cover is blown and they're surrounded by something like a whole bloody Legion. Polymorphing does nothing for you when the enemy can sense your heartbeat and thus blow your cover, or simply murder anything the Callidus might disguise herself as. M'shen was doomed the second she set down on Tsagualsa. The only reason why she nearly escaped was thanks to the Night Lords trying to loot their own Primarch and then the later arrival of the Eldar.
Also, Talos' prophecies didn't factor into the fight with M'shen. He only gains shaky looks into the future that while more accurate than the average Chaos Sorcerer, are more like the enemy's plans for deployments than any Jedi-style precognition in a fight. He just knew that he was going to hunt down and kill M'shen, not where she was going to swing her sword.
Ashiraya wrote: The way he defeated the assassin seemed rather logical and did not smell of plot armour. Have you read the scene? It is well written.
Have you read the scene where Cain pwns some Khorne berserker?
You did not mention which kind of assassin it was. An Eversor would have ignored the acid and killed the marine anyway. A Vindicare would not have charged, just killed him from far away. A Callidus would have killed him from behind without him even knowing about it. So I guess she was a Culexus somehow fighting a non-psyker, or what?
You...... don't know who M'shen was?
She was a Callidus, and no, Callidus Assassins are pretty much screwed if their cover is blown and they're surrounded by something like a whole bloody Legion. Polymorphing does nothing for you when the enemy can sense your heartbeat and thus blow your cover, or simply murder anything the Callidus might disguise herself as. M'shen was doomed the second she set down on Tsagualsa. The only reason why she nearly escaped was thanks to the Night Lords trying to loot their own Primarch and then the later arrival of the Eldar.
Well, a Calldus isn't going to fight through a Legion of Astartes, but given that they've had Callidus assassins successfully impersonate things like Genestealers and other alien races, and twist and contort their body into all sorts of unnatural forms and get into all sorts of otherwise unreachable places, and still nearly instantly shift into fighting form, the idea that a Space Marine could simply sense her heartbeat and instantly murder her is a bit far fetched.
The Callidus who impersonated a genestealer had to be surgically modified to do so and was rendered incapable of impersonating anything else afterwards.
I know about her what I can find in GW studio materials. I had no idea about her fight against Mr Gary Stu.
Wyzilla wrote: Callidus Assassins are pretty much screwed if their cover is blown and they're surrounded by something like a whole bloody Legion.
Indeed. However, if their cover is blown and they are surrounded by one marine rather than a legion, it means that this marine is going to become their new cover very soon!
What is wrong about about WS3/4 BS4 S3 T3 and WS3 BS3 S4 T4?
Seems fine to me. Seemed fine to GW too for quite a long time actually.
I've always thought Scouts should be WS4 BS4 S3 T3 because they're not in power armor. I've also always thought Terminators ought to be WS4 BS4 S5 T5.
If I recall correctly, Scouts had the same stats as Marines (aside from saving throw and leadership) for many, many editions in the past. This is simply a return to that form.
I know about her what I can find in GW studio materials. I had no idea about her fight against Mr Gary Stu.
Wyzilla wrote: Callidus Assassins are pretty much screwed if their cover is blown and they're surrounded by something like a whole bloody Legion.
Indeed. However, if their cover is blown and they are surrounded by one marine rather than a legion, it means that this marine is going to become their new cover very soon!
Callidus can't take Astartes as a disguise, they lack the black carapace to make the armor move with any grace, not to mention they literally couldn't fit inside unless they spontaneously generated free mass.
You also might want to actually bother reading the Night Lords Omnibus before continuing, because it's incredibly obvious you know nothing on the subject you speak of. M'shen was running like a scared cat to get to her ship and escape, Talos was hot on her heels all along and ambushing her at several points because he knew the layout of the fortress- she didn't.
I know about her what I can find in GW studio materials. I had no idea about her fight against Mr Gary Stu.
Wyzilla wrote: Callidus Assassins are pretty much screwed if their cover is blown and they're surrounded by something like a whole bloody Legion.
Indeed. However, if their cover is blown and they are surrounded by one marine rather than a legion, it means that this marine is going to become their new cover very soon!
Callidus can't take Astartes as a disguise, they lack the black carapace to make the armor move with any grace,
They've been described as having about the nearest closest equivalent
" These implants consist of flex-cartilage and hardened synthskin, similar to that used in the Black Carapace gene-seed organ of the Space Marines. "
not to mention they literally couldn't fit inside unless they spontaneously generated free mass.
In the real world? Probably. In the 40k universe? The Callidus Assassin's have portrayed large-ish beings before. They may not necessarily need to imitate exactly the large mass, just certain parts to move "well enough" to look like they wear the armor correctly for a very short time. Hardly the most egregious violation of "real world" mechanics in the 40k universe.
j31c3n wrote: I've always thought Scouts should be WS4 BS4 S3 T3 because they're not in power armor.
The S3 T3 is not the power armor, else Sisters would be WS3 BS4 S4 T4.
j31c3n wrote: I've also always thought Terminators ought to be WS4 BS4 S5 T5.
Well, now you get Centurions.
Wyzilla wrote: Callidus can't take Astartes as a disguise, they lack the black carapace to make the armor move with any grace, not to mention they literally couldn't fit inside unless they spontaneously generated free mass.
If a Callidus can pass for an ork, they can pass for a marine with no trouble.
There is nothing at all in the list of implants given to marines that would result in them having the superspeed and superintelligence that people are ascribing to them.
The super-intelligence is inferred from the processing ability needed to handle perfect recall and the additional sensory input provided by the poorly-defined ocular enhancements the Occulobe prepares the body for, the Omophagea, the Lyman's Ear, and the Neuroglottis.
Lexicanum's entire section on the mental upgrades is pure fanon, but it is, for the most part, somewhat logical fanon.
Alcibiades wrote: There is nothing at all in the list of implants given to marines that would result in them having the superspeed and superintelligence that people are ascribing to them.
The details are fuzzy but we know that the result is true. They are very commonly described with the traits you mention.
We could run a study, but sadly those genetic enhancement do not exist, and therefore we just have to go by what the fluff and/or crunch say. Scouts are in-between 3 and 4, depending on edition. Stormtroopers and Sisters are always consistently BS4.
If I recall correctly, Scouts had the same stats as Marines (aside from saving throw and leadership) for many, many editions in the past. This is simply a return to that form.
You do recall correctly, infact many people had a reaction much like peoples reaction to Scouts getting WS/BS4, to them going down to WS/BS3 I was pissed and stopped using scouts.
Ashiraya wrote: Is it your opinion that your average Boy is a significantly more skillful melee combatant than a fully trained Battle Sister?
Well, apparently Sisters do not train to melee that much, and boyz constantly fight and are quite skilled already by their genetic memory whatever, so… yes ?
j31c3n wrote: I've always thought Scouts should be WS4 BS4 S3 T3 because they're not in power armor.
The S3 T3 is not the power armor, else Sisters would be WS3 BS4 S4 T4.
I was totally unaware that Sisters had the Black Carapace and all the other genetic and biological modifications of Space Marines that are necessary for them to operate their power armor at peak efficiency.
Also, Centurions are fugly and Terminators are not.
j31c3n wrote: I've always thought Scouts should be WS4 BS4 S3 T3 because they're not in power armor.
The S3 T3 is not the power armor, else Sisters would be WS3 BS4 S4 T4.
I was totally unaware that Sisters had the Black Carapace and all the other genetic and biological modifications of Space Marines that are necessary for them to operate their power armor at peak efficiency.
The Black Carapace isn't going to effect strength or toughness, it's going to impact agility, mobility, and speed. IIRC.
Furyou Miko wrote: Even if that is true, you're still looking at eight years training compared to fifteen.
Eight years of training, augmented by Aspirants generally having been brought up in the same kind of "grueling conditions"--if not harder conditions-- as the Scions/Sororitas were.
Remember that Astartes worlds are not all sunshine and roses. They also recruit from feral or death worlds, which are strictly offlimits to the Munitorum to recruit Guard regiments from.
Kanluwen wrote: Eight years of training, augmented by Aspirants generally having been brought up in the same kind of "grueling conditions"--if not harder conditions-- as the Scions/Sororitas were.
Remember that Astartes worlds are not all sunshine and roses. They also recruit from feral or death worlds, which are strictly offlimits to the Munitorum to recruit Guard regiments from.
But Scions and Sororitas are not brought up to the conditions of a feral or death world. They are recruited from a Scola Progenium, where they learn how to use bolters and hotshot lasgun and chainswords and all that rather than learning how use a pointy stick and how to avoid places where there is bungasaurus dung, because bungasaurus are lethal.
See how one would actually help to learn what a model is going to do on the tabletop, and the other would not?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
j31c3n wrote: I was totally unaware that Sisters had the Black Carapace and all the other genetic and biological modifications of Space Marines that are necessary for them to operate their power armor at peak efficiency.
Except the black carapace is mostly useful to read braille in armor. Hurray, your armor is now a second skin, you can decipher what the blind guy was reading without removing your gauntlet!
j31c3n wrote: Also, Centurions are fugly and Terminators are not.
Kanluwen wrote: Eight years of training, augmented by Aspirants generally having been brought up in the same kind of "grueling conditions"--if not harder conditions-- as the Scions/Sororitas were.
Remember that Astartes worlds are not all sunshine and roses. They also recruit from feral or death worlds, which are strictly offlimits to the Munitorum to recruit Guard regiments from.
But Scions and Sororitas are not brought up to the conditions of a feral or death world. They are recruited from a Scola Progenium, where they learn how to use bolters and hotshot lasgun and chainswords and all that rather than learning how use a pointy stick and how to avoid places where there is bungasaurus dung, because bungasaurus are lethal. See how one would actually help to learn what a model is going to do on the tabletop, and the other would not?
Why do you assume that they only give a Scout limited training before shoving them off to the front? Its training, Implants and Training, then more training, then Fighting which is also training, then they get back from the fight to train more. Oh and since they dont really need sleep they can train 24 hours a day and cover that length of time the Sisters and Scions need in less time
Except the black carapace is mostly useful to read braille in armor. Hurray, your armor is now a second skin, you can decipher what the blind guy was reading without removing your gauntlet!
That same feature that allows them to read braille with out taking off your glove also lets you move more naturally with it on, cause like you said its a second skin now. You'd feel at home with it on and unencumbered by it, allowing you to be more agile.
That same feature that allows them to read braille with out taking off your glove also lets you move more naturally with it on, cause like you said its a second skin now. You'd feel at home with it on and unencumbered by it, allowing you to be more agile.
FFG represents the agility well I think, making the Astartes as hard to hit as if they were human-sized.
That same feature that allows them to read braille with out taking off your glove also lets you move more naturally with it on, cause like you said its a second skin now. You'd feel at home with it on and unencumbered by it, allowing you to be more agile.
FFG represents the agility well I think, making the Astartes as hard to hit as if they were human-sized.
Yeah, I really like how FFG represents them, hell I like how they represent everyone for the most part.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Why do you assume that they only give a Scout limited training before shoving them off to the front? Its training, Implants and Training, then more training, then Fighting which is also training, then they get back from the fight to train more. Oh and since they dont really need sleep they can train 24 hours a day and cover that length of time the Sisters and Scions need in less time
Twenty hours a day - the catalepsian node explicitly does not replace sleep entirely and, in fact, has detrimental effects if used continuously.
That same feature that allows them to read braille with out taking off your glove also lets you move more naturally with it on, cause like you said its a second skin now. You'd feel at home with it on and unencumbered by it, allowing you to be more agile.
Which has what, exactly, to do with the armour protecting the wearer?
Space Marines should be S4 T4.
Scouts should be S3 T3.
WS/BS should be 4 for both. They're all elite soldiers.
Scouts should have the same stats as Sororitas. They're effectively the same thing although with less armor. Surely the lack of S and T is because they're not equipped with the Black Carapace and can't make full use of their Power Armor's enhanced strength. It's not because they're women. All basic humans are S3 T3.
The only real difference between a Space Marine Scout and an Imperial Storm Trooper is their armament. They've had similarly grueling training and are similarly equipped for the most part.
Furyou Miko wrote: Twenty hours a day - the catalepsian node explicitly does not replace sleep entirely and, in fact, has detrimental effects if used continuously.
If used constantly year round, of course they'd get weekends where they only have to train 20 hours a day.
Which has what, exactly, to do with the armour protecting the wearer?
Nothing, I didn't say that it did. I was saying it more to agree with;
Vaktathi wrote:I was totally unaware that Sisters had the Black Carapace and all the other genetic and biological modifications of Space Marines that are necessary for them to operate their power armor at peak efficiency. The Black Carapace isn't going to effect strength or toughness, it's going to impact agility, mobility, and speed. IIRC.
Since Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl seems to think the only benefits are relatively minor.
There's a lot of stuff with Space Marine's that's pretty minor. Acid spit? It's a cool little nugget that pops up now and again for cool factor, but is hardly something that would be of such routine and critical importance to develop outside of "cool factor".
The Black Carapace has its benefits, but, like many things, likely something of a marginal one, something that makes a difference between foes of otherwise similar quality, tipping the edge, or that mitigates some sort of other drawback. Other units with similar armor don't have it and don't seem to be overly crippled by not having an equivalent.
It's something that mitigates mobility problems, not that really changes the effectiveness of the protection of the power armor. Even in FFG's 40kRPG's that often exaggerate SM capabilites in the eyes of many, the Black Carapace largely simply negates the to-hit bonus for being Hulk-Huge. It's a nice edge that has some benefit, but not something that's going to make a world of difference.
Vaktathi wrote: The Black Carapace has its benefits, but, like many things, likely something of a marginal one, something that makes a difference between foes of otherwise similar quality, tipping the edge, or that mitigates some sort of other drawback. Other units with similar armor don't have it and don't seem to be overly crippled by not having an equivalent.
The Luna Wolves fought the Auretian Technocracy during the Great Crusade, whose armies were Astartes in every way (with PA and boltguns and tanks and everything) except they were normal humans inside the suits instead of Space Marines.
They got utterly demolished, and it was made very clear that it's the soldier inside the suit that made the difference. So clearly all those 'marginal' organs are actually major stuff.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vaktathi wrote: Other units with similar armor don't have it and don't seem to be overly crippled by not having an equivalent.
It seems to be less 'you are crippled without it', and more 'it works without it but you're a monster with it'.
Personally I find that it mostly makes sense and is a good idea.
But I did have another possibility for your consideration...
How about WS3 and BS4? I could imagine that the "boost" from Power Armor is more effective on raw strength than aiming and Scouts seem to be set up in a shooty manner, plus them being shootier than they are choppy would be pretty sensible given their frequent role as snipers.
Vaktathi wrote: The Black Carapace has its benefits, but, like many things, likely something of a marginal one, something that makes a difference between foes of otherwise similar quality, tipping the edge, or that mitigates some sort of other drawback. Other units with similar armor don't have it and don't seem to be overly crippled by not having an equivalent.
The Luna Wolves fought the Auretian Technocracy during the Great Crusade, whose armies were Astartes in every way (with PA and boltguns and tanks and everything) except they were normal humans inside the suits instead of Space Marines.
They got utterly demolished, and it was made very clear that it's the soldier inside the suit that made the difference. So clearly all those 'marginal' organs are actually major stuff.
I honestly do not recall this since it's been years since I've read those HH books, particularly the early ones with the Luna Wolves (I think I read them back when the game was still solidly in 4th edition).
That said, attributing all that power simply to the Black Carapace would seem to be out of proportion with all other military advancements ever for its relative capability. The idea that the black carapace provides that much more battlefield value is very difficult to swallow.
Weren't the Luna Wolves also at this point in the Crusade in direct command of great hordes of Imperial Army auxiliaries and spaceships to cover their supply lines, consolidate and hold ground, resupply them, etc, allowing all the elite power armored troops to be concentrated to best effect?
It seems to be less 'you are crippled without it', and more 'it works without it but you're a monster with it'.
Hrm, it's more a "You move with more grace and aren't quite as hulky". Not quite turning something into a monster, but giving an edge over an otherwise similarly equipped opponent. It's also an edge that would largely only matter in close quarters firefights and hand to hand combat, and be utterly irrelevant against heavy weapons fire, stuff like artillery/air-dropped bombs/tank shells/etc that have historically accounted for the overwhelmingly vast majority of casualties in warfare. Not pointless, but also hardly an overwhelmingly insurmountable combat advantage either.
Furyou Miko wrote:
Twenty hours a day - the catalepsian node explicitly does not replace sleep entirely and, in fact, has detrimental effects if used continuously.
If used constantly year round, of course they'd get weekends where they only have to train 20 hours a day.
No, the fluff specifically states that it reduces their need to sleep so that they can get away with only four hours of sleep a night, and remain aware while sleeping.
Space Marines do not operate a 24 hour training schedule.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Why do you assume that they only give a Scout limited training before shoving them off to the front?
Because they are explicitly the rookies? And were even given WS3 BS3?
It is quite obvious that they have less training and experience than full on marines.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: That same feature that allows them to read braille with out taking off your glove also lets you move more naturally with it on, cause like you said its a second skin now. You'd feel at home with it on and unencumbered by it, allowing you to be more agile.
Will not give you S4, though. Will help you keep the WS4 and I4 with power armor on.
Ashiraya wrote: If the benefits of the Black Carapace had been in any way minor, then they would not bother with it!
40k, not bothering with things that brings only minor benefit? Are you kidding?
That said, attributing all that power simply to the Black Carapace would seem to be out of proportion with all other military advancements ever for its relative capability. The idea that the black carapace provides that much more battlefield value is very difficult to swallow.
Weren't the Luna Wolves also at this point in the Crusade in direct command of great hordes of Imperial Army auxiliaries and spaceships to cover their supply lines, consolidate and hold ground, resupply them, etc, allowing all the elite power armored troops to be concentrated to best effect?
It was not solely the Black Carapace, but the book made it very clear that the reason the Technocracy was so hopelessly outmatched was that one side's soldiers were human, and the other was Astartes.
It was Horus Rising, btw.
Hrm, it's more a "You move with more grace and aren't quite as hulky". Not quite turning something into a monster, but giving an edge over an otherwise similarly equipped opponent. It's also an edge that would largely only matter in close quarters firefights and hand to hand combat, and be utterly irrelevant against heavy weapons fire, stuff like artillery/air-dropped bombs/tank shells/etc that have historically accounted for the overwhelmingly vast majority of casualties in warfare. Not pointless, but also hardly an overwhelmingly insurmountable combat advantage either.
Keep in mind that in 40k, warfare is not fought like it is historically. Lance-equipped cavalry charges are seen alongside tank pushes, heavily armoured super-soldiers swing chainsaw swords and leap towards the enemy bearing great jump packs, and charging towards the enemy while swinging your sword furiously is generally a better idea than you'd assume it is.
People seem to take the DKoK and their way of war vastly out of proportion. 40k is fantasy-in-space, not sci-fi, and the clash of swords matters just as much as the exchange of artillery fire.
Because they are explicitly the rookies? And were even given WS3 BS3? It is quite obvious that they have less training and experience than full on marines.
Then why aren't basic Sisters and Scions only BS3? I mean they represent rookies fresh out of training.
When did you start 40k? Because I started back in the end of 3e start of 4e when Scouts were WS and BS4, so to me bringing them back to that makes sense, where as lowering them did not. I mean its quite obvious from the fluff that its not just Rookies that are Scouts, some are, but a large portion of them are gonna be guys that are in the area between that and being made into a full Battle Brother. Like I have said numerous times in this thread, you aren't a Scout for a preset time, you are there until you are ready to be a full Brother or until they need enough bodies to replace those that have been lost.
Will not give you S4, though. Will help you keep the WS4 and I4 with power armor on.
I wasn't saying it was, its just it seemed you were discounting it helping with the Agility.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Then why aren't basic Sisters and Scions only BS3? I mean they represent rookies fresh out of training.
No, they do not. You may have missed it, but actually Sisters and Scions, do not exactly receive the same amount of attention from GW that Marines take for granted, and therefore neither have a unit to represent their rookies.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Then why aren't basic Sisters and Scions only BS3? I mean they represent rookies fresh out of training.
No, they do not. You may have missed it, but actually Sisters and Scions, do not exactly receive the same amount of attention from GW that Marines take for granted, and therefore neither have a unit to represent their rookies.
So then, they like the Scouts, show these Rookies as well as those that have been their for a while is what you are saying. Because GW has yet to show Rookie Scouts, and Regular Scouts in the same book.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Because GW has yet to show Rookie Scouts, and Regular Scouts in the same book.
Scouts are rookie marines. You already have a tons of different marines unit. Sisters have very few units (6, with only 3 types of models, and one of those is so bad it almost does not count), marines have like millions of them. Scions only have one unit type.
So, that is why the rookie sisters and the rookie scions are not represented, and why Sisters and Scions have only models with BS4. Trust me, I would gladly exchange roles with marines on this.
Furyou Miko wrote: But Scouts are rookies, except for Space Wolf Scouts, who are veterans.
Why do your rookie scouts have the same ballistic and weapon skill as the SW veterans?
Scouts are the youngest and newest surgically and genetically enhanced fighters who have received extensive training that would have killed the majority of normal humans, but they are still surgically and genetically enhanced fighters who have received extensive training that would have killed the majority of normal humans.
The Chapters are not going to send their new guys out into a fight and risk wasting their genetic legacy unless they have figured out how to shoot a bolter and stab someone with their giant knife. They are not going "go and fight those people with limited training, gene-seed be damned!".
Ashiraya wrote: Ork Boyz are also WS4, whereas Battle Sisters are WS3.
Is it your opinion that your average Boy is a significantly more skillful melee combatant than a fully trained Battle Sister?
This is relevant.
Mostly because I believe WS/BS doesn't just take skill into account. An Ork will never have the finesse or skill of a Sororitas or a Tempestus, but it has the bulk and brutality to bring down even the most skilled fighters. The way I see it, WS is an amalgamation of gear, strenght and trained skill. Orks may be slow-witted brutes armed with crude axes and clubs, but have more than enough strenght to make up for those.
Here's the thing, though. What kind of firearms training would kill the majority of normal humans?
Firing field guns from the hip?
There is very little a Scout in Carapace can survive that a Sister in Power Armour cannot. Is some of the difference because the Sister has power armour and the Scout doesn't? Yes, probably - but that just means that they can train on the same level when equipped.
Sisters shoot guns while under fire during training. So do Scouts. Both will probably undergo sonic attacks, pain rays and whatever else the training officers can think of to disrupt the trainees' concentration and force them to learn to fire under the most adverse of conditions.
The training regimes are, ultimately, liable to be almost identical - except that the Scouts might do some of their drills in hard vacuum, which admittedly the Sisters are less likely to do.
Vaktathi wrote: The Black Carapace has its benefits, but, like many things, likely something of a marginal one, something that makes a difference between foes of otherwise similar quality, tipping the edge, or that mitigates some sort of other drawback. Other units with similar armor don't have it and don't seem to be overly crippled by not having an equivalent.
The Luna Wolves fought the Auretian Technocracy during the Great Crusade, whose armies were Astartes in every way (with PA and boltguns and tanks and everything) except they were normal humans inside the suits instead of Space Marines.
They got utterly demolished, and it was made very clear that it's the soldier inside the suit that made the difference. So clearly all those 'marginal' organs are actually major stuff.
That's funny. I rememer Loken (or was it Tarik?) Going into details about how the Auretian Technocracy's military was anything but pushovers.
Besides, the Auretian Technocracy didn't get keeled over in one day. Rather, it took the brilliance of Horus' planning skills and the full might of two of the most brutal Astartes legions to bring an end to the Auretian Technocracy, and even after all that, victory only came after a long drawn out war of attrition.
Agent_Tremolo wrote: An Ork will never have the finesse or skill of a Sororitas or a Tempestus
Finesse, no. Orks are pretty much antithesis to finesse. Skill? I would not be so sure. Remember that the only two beings that were able to threaten the Emperor were a Primarch and an Ork. I doubt that was just brute force that allowed the Ork to do so. If she had been a slow-witted brute, she would never have posed any kind of threat.
Its funny, because all I remember of the Technocrazy was that it was rolled over in the first chapter with only the Invisibles giving anyone any trouble whatsoever, just for the sake of a doubletake gag.
As for the melee skill of Orks, there was a wonderful short passage in White Dwarf a while ago (around the release of the edition of Codex: Orks where choppas reduced your save to 4+) from the PoV of an Ork assaulting a Marine-held position that detailed quite clearly the lighting-fast battle instinct of the Ork boy in question - just a regular choppa boy, mind you - identifying all the weak points in the Marines' armour and the importance of smashing his bolter out the way and not giving him a chance to draw his knife.
Furyou Miko wrote: Here's the thing, though. What kind of firearms training would kill the majority of normal humans?
Firing field guns from the hip?
There is very little a Scout in Carapace can survive that a Sister in Power Armour cannot. Is some of the difference because the Sister has power armour and the Scout doesn't? Yes, probably - but that just means that they can train on the same level when equipped.
Sisters shoot guns while under fire during training. So do Scouts. Both will probably undergo sonic attacks, pain rays and whatever else the training officers can think of to disrupt the trainees' concentration and force them to learn to fire under the most adverse of conditions.
A Sister could survive shooting while under fire. A Space Marine Scout could reliably survive training that requires actually being shot with small-caliber weapons before they start.
Furyou Miko wrote: Its funny, because all I remember of the Technocrazy was that it was rolled over in the first chapter with only the Invisibles giving anyone any trouble whatsoever, just for the sake of a doubletake gag.
You got it mixed up, Miko. The invisibles are from the 'Pretender Imperium' in the first novel. The Technocrazy first appear in the second novel, after Horus corruption. They are not the same.
Furyou Miko wrote: Its funny, because all I remember of the Technocrazy was that it was rolled over in the first chapter with only the Invisibles giving anyone any trouble whatsoever, just for the sake of a doubletake gag.
I think you two are referring to two different groups. The other person's talking about False Gods. The Invisibles are from the very first book.
Furyou Miko wrote: Here's the thing, though. What kind of firearms training would kill the majority of normal humans?
Firing field guns from the hip?
There is very little a Scout in Carapace can survive that a Sister in Power Armour cannot. Is some of the difference because the Sister has power armour and the Scout doesn't? Yes, probably - but that just means that they can train on the same level when equipped.
Sisters shoot guns while under fire during training. So do Scouts. Both will probably undergo sonic attacks, pain rays and whatever else the training officers can think of to disrupt the trainees' concentration and force them to learn to fire under the most adverse of conditions.
A Sister could survive shooting while under fire. A Space Marine Scout could reliably survive training that requires actually being shot with small-caliber weapons before they start.
Sister could shoot with a small bullet in her too :p
Furyou Miko wrote: Here's the thing, though. What kind of firearms training would kill the majority of normal humans?
Firing field guns from the hip?
There is very little a Scout in Carapace can survive that a Sister in Power Armour cannot. Is some of the difference because the Sister has power armour and the Scout doesn't? Yes, probably - but that just means that they can train on the same level when equipped.
Sisters shoot guns while under fire during training. So do Scouts. Both will probably undergo sonic attacks, pain rays and whatever else the training officers can think of to disrupt the trainees' concentration and force them to learn to fire under the most adverse of conditions.
A Sister could survive shooting while under fire. A Space Marine Scout could reliably survive training that requires actually being shot with small-caliber weapons before they start.
Sister could shoot with a small bullet in her too :p
Not in a heart or lung... or the guts. Not if it hits a major artery or vein (unless she is very lucky and it is staunched early). Marines can easily survive such wounds. Sisters can't.
EmpNortonII wrote: A Space Marine Scout could reliably survive training that requires actually being shot with small-caliber weapons before they start.
Depend where. Shot him in the eye and he would not. Similarly, a Sister could survive depending on where you shoot her (might be a drawn nipple behind that link. Certainly is a buttload of stupidity. Seriously, we used to have that gak on TV for kids in France . ).
No, for selfish reasons -I run wolves and WSBS 4 scouts was one of their uniques advantages. Are claws untis now also going to be bumped up? I'm not in favour of that either, it makes the army less interesting.
thegreatchimp wrote: No, for selfish reasons -I run wolves and WSBS 4 scouts was one of their uniques advantages. Are claws untis now also going to be bumped up? I'm not in favour of that either, it makes the army less interesting.
Only their advantage in 5e and 6e, before that they had other bonus' to show the difference.
Agent_Tremolo wrote: An Ork will never have the finesse or skill of a Sororitas or a Tempestus
Finesse, no. Orks are pretty much antithesis to finesse. Skill? I would not be so sure. Remember that the only two beings that were able to threaten the Emperor were a Primarch and an Ork. I doubt that was just brute force that allowed the Ork to do so. If she had been a slow-witted brute, she would never have posed any kind of threat.
The Ork never threatened the Emperor, that was gone over by one of the HH books. Horus "saves" the Emperor, then the Emperor immediately erases the Ork Warboss from existence. Plus considering he's probably a perpetual, dying isn't an issue.
EmpNortonII wrote: A Space Marine Scout could reliably survive training that requires actually being shot with small-caliber weapons before they start.
Depend where. Shot him in the eye and he would not. Similarly, a Sister could survive depending on where you shoot her (might be a drawn nipple behind that link. Certainly is a buttload of stupidity. Seriously, we used to have that gak on TV for kids in France . ).
Not only can humans survive being shot through the eye, it's pathetically easy for an Astartes to do the same. Ceramic bones coupled with them having insane durability. Space Marines have had entire sections of their face removed and reduced down to the bone. They walked off these kinds of wounds.
That's funny. I rememer Loken (or was it Tarik?) Going into details about how the Auretian Technocracy's military was anything but pushovers.
Besides, the Auretian Technocracy didn't get keeled over in one day. Rather, it took the brilliance of Horus' planning skills and the full might of two of the most brutal Astartes legions to bring an end to the Auretian Technocracy, and even after all that, victory only came after a long drawn out war of attrition.
I just said they were demolished, not how easily.
The book DID make it awfully clear that the Marine inside the armour made all the difference in that war.
Most SM recruits die in the modification process. This has been reiterated in the new SM codex - I will post the fluff when I get home. It's a nice little diagram of the steps to becoming a space marine.
For gods sake marines have acid spit! Ws4 on scouts just represents spitting acid into the enemies eyes to decrease their skill by a whole WS level.
There's all sorts of things that can spit nasty stuff in the 40k universe, never seen it used
It's also something of a stretch to assume that...spit can be so accurately shot as to routinely hit eyes. Superhuman or no, that's just not a particularly accurate projectile and there's not a ton of force behind it. It's a relatively lame crutch to stand on, and holds no water against something that's wearing a helmet or is composed of materials that an acid isn't going to interact with.
A simple modern day police riot helmet with a plastic see-through visor will make acid-spit rather pointless for trying to blind anyone. There are tons of units in the game with such equipment, half the IG regiments have some form of eye/face protection, Eldar almost all do, Tau sport face-encompassing helmets, as do Dark Eldar, all the Assassins, the Skitarii, while who knows what it does to Necrons or Daemons, while Tyranids spit acid right back
Should note that the Marine doesn't literally hawk it up and gob it at someone - its described as operating like a cobra's venom spit, which is accurate to 1.5m (5ft) against a moving target.
But it is trying to go against crazy space-helmet!
The fact it is almost never used in the fluff and literally never used on the tabletop is telling.
I think the most obvious weak point is that it requires the marine to remove the helmet, and offer the enemy a nice headshot.
Furyou Miko wrote: It was used in the first book of Brothers of the Snake against a DEldar.
I think the thickness of the spit all depends on Marines. Those in Brothers of the Snake lack the part of the gland that allow them to produce their own venom so he used the snake's venom from when he was bit.
I've heard of fluff examples of spit being used, but never heard it described like Cobra venom spitting, which have far more specialized hardware to accomplish that than I've ever heard of Space Marines being equipped for.
A spitting cobra has specialized poison glands able to be pressurized and force venom out of hypodermic-needle-like fangs, and I don't recall Space Marines having been described as having any sort of biological equipment like that. The Betcher's gland, at least as far as I recall, is not described as having this sort of capability.
It's also not something all Space Marines have anymore, and is lost to many Chapters, such as the Imperial Fists.
That's how it was described in Brothers of the Snake, although their geneseed variant did affect the Betcher's Gland in that it let them recycle poison used on them instead of creating poison fresh.
The lexicanum entry has this to say;
"Consists of two identical glands, implanted either into the lower lip, alongside the salivary glands or into the hard palette. The gland works in a similar way to the poison gland of venomous reptiles by synthesizing and storing deadly poison, which the Marines themselves are immune to due to the gland's presence. This allows a Space Marine to spit a blinding contact poison. The poison is also corrosive and can even burn away strong metals given sufficient time."
Which implies to me that it varies by chapter whether they really do hawk up and gob out, or projectile shoot like snakes.
I mean, hundreds of reptile species have venom glands, there's a rather broad array of options there, and in and of itself it's an ok vague generalization to describe them to an average joe with..
I've just never heard of them having Spitting Cobra abilities, which are relatively unique and function through basically having specialized fangs that act like hypodermic needles, and I just don't recall any instances of any SM's having something like that (at least, that weren't mutated CSM's or something).
The Betcher's Gland has never really been much of a thing in any form of 40k game I can recall at any scale, and not all marines retain it by any means (Imperial Fists, Raven Guard).
Going back to the earlier assertion, it's existence as part of any justification for a stat, particularly weapon skill, would be very thin indeed.
[quote=Formosa 652092 7915200 5fc866d985c125ea6fbb2d35ded1ea21.jpgHe's been that way since the idea first came up with the emperor, they just changed "immortal" to "perpetual" nowts changed, so no retcon needed.
The Emperor was just supposed not to die of old age. No stupid Doctor Who business.
By saying they were "demolished" you gave the impression they were beaten without much effort, and that is demonstrably false.
To me, demolished in the context of a civilisation implies 'utterly and completely destroyed', which they very much were. For all terms and purposes the Technocracy civilisation WAS demolished, and denying that is what is demonstrably false.
Semantics seem like a pointless way to try to marginalise that victory.
I don't remember the novel clarifying anything of that sort. Do you have quote for that?
My books are up in my other house and I am popping off to France over the weekend in a matter of hours, so I can't get you the exact passages right now, but I promise you that when I get home I will give you the quotes as soon as possible. I am 100% sure the book did say that.
no. Enough of this stat inflation where everyone gets to be 
But it's not like you can have 
those bolter tactical marines just wiped me out!!! Never. 
.
.
.
