I've seen people say tau aren't in a good spot, and that competitively they're lackluster. I also see people say they're op and unfair to play against whilst also tabling people all the time. Can someone explain to me where they stand and why tau seem to be both lacking and op at the same time?

Because there WERE op during early sixth, but seventh shut down tau's op combo.


Fact is that beyond a single fire Base formation, tau don't even make an appearance in higher tables of big competitions, let alone won anything.

Heck, even orks and nids who are considered generally poor, are doing better for n scores.

Tau in 6th ed were the big dogs, and the Riptide+Missileside combo was quite potent for tabling enemies. Their best opponent is also Power Armored Folks, which make up like 90% of the armies people play casually since SMs are so popular.

So between those thoughts tau are considered really strong because they are easy to build a strong list for casual play.

That's why in casual play Eldar and Tau are quite often hated on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Because there WERE op during early sixth, but seventh shut down tau's op combo.


Fact is that beyond a single fire Base formation, tau don't even make an appearance in higher tables of big competitions, let alone won anything.

Heck, even orks and nids who are considered generally poor, are doing better for n scores.

Except, you know, the most recent top level ITC tournament, where Tau and FSE made it to top 8.

Tau has the Firebase Support Cadre (which is really good).
Apart from that, they have a couple good choice, but nothing crazy.

They were boring to play against in 6th, but in 7th, they feel more balance, and fun to play against, especially in Maelstorm (because it will force the Tau to build more mobile squad, and they are decent at it and fun to play with and against in those scenario)

If you face a firebase on a parking lot then sure, they are OP. If there's actual terrain to block some LOS and you can get close enough to shoot/charge (depending on your army) they're easy pickings. The Tau army works on units supporting each other - people cry about markerlights increasing BS or taking away cover saves but fail to notice that those ML units are usually very soft. And ofc, if the "too cheap" Riptide does stuff while supported by ML Pathfinder teams you really should count those Pathfinders into the cost of the Riptide shouldn't you? Take them out and the Tau are crippled. People also cry about special wargear that allow interceptor - but it's rare and the Tau might not even want to use it since they can't boost the shots with markerlights.

Most people that scream OP are still butthurt from 6th. But they are not bad at all. Upper mid still. BAO was last week (?) and tau took 4th. That's pretty strong showing still.

Most Tau and Necrons lists are like magic combo decks. They aren't interactive at all for the other player. It doesn't matter what the other army has, the strategy doesn't change. That's the main reason people tend to dislike playing them.

If you haven't played against magic combo decks, it's something like:
-you get 4-7 turns to kill the opponent past a small token defense.
-on one of his turns in the 4-7 range, if he's still alive, he will suddenly tell you that you lost.

As for being OP, the typical tau list tears people up in flgs games, where people try to run khorne berserkers in rhinos and the Sanguinor and junk like that. Middle-table and higher tourney lists is where they start getting wrecked though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hawkeye888 wrote:
Most people that scream OP are still butthurt from 6th. But they are not bad at all. Upper mid still. BAO was last week (?) and tau took 4th. That's pretty strong showing still.

A strong showing, but one high placing in one 5 round event is not significant data. Izzy's list is also farsight enclave with a bunch of crisis suits + firebase formation, not standard tau codex junk.

In tournaments... no tau are not op, but that is because most tournaments nerf and limt what units you can bring.

In non competitive games... Yes and no. I say yes because they could use the FW units(decent to good) and can wreck elder and Ravenwing bike list and anything else if the list uses certain units. No, because it depends on how a player uses them, and everyone has a different experience. Look through this thread and you can tell who here has a negative experience and who has a positive(some are obvious).

Fun list to use is Fist of fury in non competitive matches. Once used to be the most OP thing tau had , but now it can catch you off guard but wont work as well the 2nd+ time.

niv-mizzet wrote:
Most Tau and Necrons lists are like magic combo decks. They aren't interactive at all for the other player. It doesn't matter what the other army has, the strategy doesn't change. That's the main reason people tend to dislike playing them.

If you haven't played against magic combo decks, it's something like:
-you get 4-7 turns to kill the opponent past a small token defense.
-on one of his turns in the 4-7 range, if he's still alive, he will suddenly tell you that you lost.

As for being OP, the typical tau list tears people up in flgs games, where people try to run khorne berserkers in rhinos and the Sanguinor and junk like that. Middle-table and higher tourney lists is where they start getting wrecked though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hawkeye888 wrote:
Most people that scream OP are still butthurt from 6th. But they are not bad at all. Upper mid still. BAO was last week (?) and tau took 4th. That's pretty strong showing still.

A strong showing, but one high placing in one 5 round event is not significant data. Izzy's list is also farsight enclave with a bunch of crisis suits + firebase formation, not standard tau codex junk.

Yeah, F those people, running what they enjoy instead of at the very least a mid-tier competitive list from the internet. When will they learn?

But yeah, the combo-deck comparison is pretty dang accurate. Scatbike/Dspam Eldar is the same way.

Jaxler wrote:
I've seen people say tau aren't in a good spot, and that competitively they're lackluster. I also see people say they're op and unfair to play against whilst also tabling people all the time. Can someone explain to me where they stand and why tau seem to be both lacking and op at the same time?

Take away their marker lights, and they are IG without the Leman Russ' or orders system.

Tau are a shooty army in a shooty edition. Furthermore, they tend toward a gunline style of play, which can be very boring to play against.

However, Tau suffer in terms of rapid mobility. Maelstrom hurts them significantly. As others have said, their shooting is powerful, but reliant on markerlights to be effective. Kill the markerlights and their long-range firepower and they crumple like wet paper.

I think one of the problems is also that most people don't KNOW the tau codex. It can come as a surprise when your careful maneuver suddenly offers less cover, and the enemy has higher ballistic skill than you thought.

For Imperial and chaos, most players know what the units are capable of.

If you don't play or fight tau often, it's easy to be taken off guard by their unique special rules.

 zgort wrote:
I think one of the problems is also that most people don't KNOW the tau codex. It can come as a surprise when your careful maneuver suddenly offers less cover, and the enemy has higher ballistic skill than you thought.

For Imperial and chaos, most players know what the units are capable of.

If you don't play or fight tau often, it's easy to be taken off guard by their unique special rules.

People can know the Tau codex all they want, it's simply a case of Tau ignore the main game rules.

People aren't necessarily used to charging a lone unit and then getting Overwatched at BS3+(depending on how many Markerlights hit from a unit providing Supporting Fire with Markerlights at BS1) by multiple units with some serious fire power that are within a certain distance of the unit being charged.

Tau Empire? No

Farsight Enclaves? Can be pretty damn good with a TE detachment.

In a recent tournament a FSE/TE army took fourth. Which is pretty darn good given how old both our dexes are. TE alone is pretty okay.

Tau just have many shenanigans as other armies, including Imperium of Man armies which in my experience are the ones that are the most vocal when it comes to the silly "Tau are OP" complaint. Especially with the release of the latest Imperium Codex's, Mechanicum, Space Marines & Dark Angels. All have the tools necessary to absolutely mess up Tau, Eldar and other Xenos forces quite nicely.

Tau are not op, yes they have some great Models, but in all reality they are only good if the player knows how to use each model and tactic properly and to a T other than that any half-competent player can eradicate a Tau firing line as tau are horrendous in Melee. Most people complain because in competitive you will see things like riptides and missilesides which are the Tau's best attribute once those are dead even a swarm of cultists can finish the rest of the tau army on their own.

Also I would like to add that I see a lot of people complaining about our markerlights. For gods sake people for one we are BS3 standard Most armies are 4 and 5 so there is that for you, and second you can't fire markerlights into overwatch unless you have a marker unit within 6" of other unit being overwatched and this can only overwatch once and each markerlight must hit on a 6 THEN ANOTHER unit can use those markerlights the only other exception to this rule is the counterfire defense system which is 5pts PER model and you must sacrifice another upgrade slot to even take it and it only raises your BS by 1. So please for all of you haters learn to play and stop complaining about markerlights.

 Kanluwen wrote:

People can know the Tau codex all they want, it's simply a case of Tau ignore the main game rules.

People aren't necessarily used to charging a lone unit and then getting Overwatched at BS3+(depending on how many Markerlights hit from a unit providing Supporting Fire with Markerlights at BS1) by multiple units with some serious fire power that are within a certain distance of the unit being charged.

I'm not convinced that higher overwatch is a game breaker (said the DA player haha). You still can only overwatch once per turn, so maybe a little strategy will be required. If they are not used to tau overwatch, they don't know the codex, that was my point.

Also consider tau have NO psychic phase and most are absolutely awful in CC. Play to their weaknesses.

Is the sky blue?
Yes Tau are OP. Their whole codex is OP. (With the exception of maybe Shadowsun).

I'm not saying that Tau is the only thing that's OP in 40k, I'm just saying that they're in general, the most OP codex as a whole.

 zgort wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

People can know the Tau codex all they want, it's simply a case of Tau ignore the main game rules.

People aren't necessarily used to charging a lone unit and then getting Overwatched at BS3+(depending on how many Markerlights hit from a unit providing Supporting Fire with Markerlights at BS1) by multiple units with some serious fire power that are within a certain distance of the unit being charged.

I'm not convinced that higher overwatch is a game breaker. You still can only overwatch once per turn, so maybe a little strategy will be required. If they are not used to tau overwatch, they don't know the codex, that was my point.

I can know all the statlines that I want to, it doesn't mean I remember that they can Overwatch to support an Overwatch or that they can get Markerlights to Overwatch and then boost up their other Overwatches.

And quite frankly, "only Overwatching once per turn" isn't exactly a weakness for Tau. Not when you're talking about people setting their army up in a legitimate "gunline" where everything is more or less within range to use Supporting Fire.

Also consider tau have NO psychic phase and most are absolutely awful in CC. Play to their weaknesses.

Speaking as someone playing Skitarii, the no Psychic Phase doesn't matter. And CC? My assault units are too expensive to be sending in for charges outside of anything but the Sicarian Kill-Clade formation where I can debuff BS,WS,I, and LD in a 12" bubble around the Infiltrators and can have all of the Ruststalkers Move, Run, then Charge once per game past turn 1.

It's also not helped by the fact that Tau have a rather large abundance of weaponry that doubles out T3...

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
Is the sky blue?
Yes Tau are OP. Their whole codex is OP. (With the exception of maybe Shadowsun).

I'm not saying that Tau is the only thing that's OP in 40k, I'm just saying that they're in general, the most OP codex as a whole.

Yes, because giving Move Through Cover, Stealth, and Shrouded to any unit isn't good or anything. Everything ELSE is the problem with that codex. Ee gads.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 zgort wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

People can know the Tau codex all they want, it's simply a case of Tau ignore the main game rules.

People aren't necessarily used to charging a lone unit and then getting Overwatched at BS3+(depending on how many Markerlights hit from a unit providing Supporting Fire with Markerlights at BS1) by multiple units with some serious fire power that are within a certain distance of the unit being charged.

I'm not convinced that higher overwatch is a game breaker. You still can only overwatch once per turn, so maybe a little strategy will be required. If they are not used to tau overwatch, they don't know the codex, that was my point.

I can know all the statlines that I want to, it doesn't mean I remember that they can Overwatch to support an Overwatch or that they can get Markerlights to Overwatch and then boost up their other Overwatches.

And quite frankly, "only Overwatching once per turn" isn't exactly a weakness for Tau. Not when you're talking about people setting their army up in a legitimate "gunline" where everything is more or less within range to use Supporting Fire.

Also consider tau have NO psychic phase and most are absolutely awful in CC. Play to their weaknesses.

Speaking as someone playing Skitarii, the no Psychic Phase doesn't matter. And CC? My assault units are too expensive to be sending in for charges outside of anything but the Sicarian Kill-Clade formation where I can debuff BS,WS,I, and LD in a 12" bubble around the Infiltrators and can have all of the Ruststalkers Move, Run, then Charge once per game past turn 1.

It's also not helped by the fact that Tau have a rather large abundance of weaponry that doubles out T3...

I support this.

Not anymore. The more recent codices really outshine them. Not saying they are weak but they are definitely not top dog anymore with the advent of all the "decarons."

Depends. If you have Eldar, Space marines, Dark Angels or Necrons your fighting at their level.

If you have anything else then you are well and truly f*cked.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
Is the sky blue?
Yes Tau are OP. Their whole codex is OP. (With the exception of maybe Shadowsun).

I'm not saying that Tau is the only thing that's OP in 40k, I'm just saying that they're in general, the most OP codex as a whole.

This is coming from an Eldar player. I lol'd.

Then again I dunno, I mean you are playing the most broken army in the game, so you'd probably know all about what it means to be OP.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
Is the sky blue?
Yes Tau are OP. Their whole codex is OP. (With the exception of maybe Shadowsun).

I'm not saying that Tau is the only thing that's OP in 40k, I'm just saying that they're in general, the most OP codex as a whole.

This is coming from an Eldar player. I lol'd.

Then again I dunno, I mean you are playing the most broken army in the game, so you'd probably know all about what it means to be OP.

I'm not saying Eldar aren't OP. I'm saying Tau are the most OP.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
Is the sky blue?
Yes Tau are OP. Their whole codex is OP. (With the exception of maybe Shadowsun).

I'm not saying that Tau is the only thing that's OP in 40k, I'm just saying that they're in general, the most OP codex as a whole.

Er, lulwhut?

Not even close mate. Necrons and CWE do a number on Tau.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
I'm not saying Eldar aren't OP. I'm saying Tau are the most OP.

Except you're wrong.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
I'm not saying Eldar aren't OP. I'm saying Tau are the most OP.

Except you're wrong.

This will keep going on and on and on. You support Space Communist Fish people and nothing I say will change that. It's useless to try and argue with you.

I can sometimes beat them with BA. That should tell right there that they aren't OP.

The top 4 (OVERALL) OP codexs are:
Tau
Eldar
Necrons and;
Space Marines

No argument about it. You pick anything in the Tau codex and it is strong, with most options being OP. Riptides being the worst.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
The top 4 (OVERALL) OP codexs are:
Tau
Eldar
Necrons and;
Space Marines

No argument about it. You pick anything in the Tau codex and it is strong, with most options being OP. Riptides being the worst.

So.. you're telling me firewarriors are overpowered?

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
The top 4 (OVERALL) OP codexs are:
Tau
Eldar
Necrons and;
Space Marines

No argument about it. You pick anything in the Tau codex and it is strong, with most options being OP. Riptides being the worst.

Are you a troll?

Martel732 wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
The top 4 (OVERALL) OP codexs are:
Tau
Eldar
Necrons and;
Space Marines

No argument about it. You pick anything in the Tau codex and it is strong, with most options being OP. Riptides being the worst.

So.. you're telling me firewarriors are overpowered?

Oh man.... I can't even begin to describe how broken they are.

30" S5 AP5 Rapid Fire is ridiculous already. Let's set the scene.
12 Fire Warriors. Add a Cadre Fireblade in, put an Ethereal nearby. That one Fire Warrior team is spitting out 48!!! shots of S5 (wounding most things on 2+) AP5 (Ignoring armour of basically anything that's not MEQ) and all these have the potential of both ignoring cover and shooting at BS5.
If you have the time, pick up 48 dice and roll to hit on 2s, wound on 3s and take all them armour saves of 3+. You can't make that many saves.
Keep in mind that's from one squad.

Okay, say you had 2 squads of 12 with a Cadre and Etherael nearby and a squad of Pathfinders.
I declare I'm going to charge at your Fire Warriors.
You overwater with the Pafinders. Getting, say only 2 markerlights. You then overwatch with Fire Warriors. Sgt overwatches with markerlight and say he hits. That makes it 96 shots at S5 AP5 hitting on 4s.
You realise how ridiculous that is.
I realise that not everyone may take this combo, but still having S5 weapons at 30" range is ridiculous when every single model has one. It's almost like your army has heavy bolters army-wide (almost).

I just can't even....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
The top 4 (OVERALL) OP codexs are:
Tau
Eldar
Necrons and;
Space Marines

No argument about it. You pick anything in the Tau codex and it is strong, with most options being OP. Riptides being the worst.

Are you a troll?

Not at all.

Okay, maybe Commander Shadowsun is the only thing that is sensible.

Scatterbikes and heavy bolters kill them from outside 30".

 Kanluwen wrote:

I can know all the statlines that I want to, it doesn't mean I remember that they can Overwatch to support an Overwatch or that they can get Markerlights to Overwatch and then boost up their other Overwatches.

And quite frankly, "only Overwatching once per turn" isn't exactly a weakness for Tau. Not when you're talking about people setting their army up in a legitimate "gunline" where everything is more or less within range to use Supporting Fire.

Why do you struggle to remember this? You should only be burned by markerlights and multiple overwatch once. After that you should know. Kill the markerlights, pathfinders are squishy. Charge with more than one unit. Outflank. Force morale checks. Stay out of RF range. Figuring out a working strategy is part of the game's appeal.

I look at Taus pros as fair, not OP. Maybe it is the lists I play against, but I would gladly face Tau over Eldar, Necrons, and free Razorbacks right now.

Hey look, it's the guy who thinks that Vespids are OP!

Seriously though, Tau are hardly as powerful as Eldar. Eldar can dominate in every phase of the game with the right units. Tau may be good in the shooting phase, which is admittedly the most important phase, but movement/psychic/assault are just as important to victory. Tau are nonexistant in two of those phases.

Tau are the strongest of the pre-Necron books, able to hold their own against the newer codexes and utterly dominate the ones from 6th/early 7th edition. But compared to what has come after them, Tau are no longer at the top tier of power. Fortunately, rumor has it they're going to be updated soon.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Hey look, it's the guy who thinks that Vespids are OP!

Seriously though, Tau are hardly as powerful as Eldar. Eldar can dominate in every phase of the game with the right units. Tau may be good in the shooting phase, which is admittedly the most important phase, but movement/psychic/assault are just as important to victory. Tau are nonexistant in two of those phases.

Tau are the strongest of the pre-Necron books, able to hold their own against the newer codexes and utterly dominate the ones from 6th/early 7th edition. But compared to what has come after them, Tau are no longer at the top tier of power. Fortunately, rumor has it they're going to be updated soon.

Sorry, but I have to ignore your opinions. I've already made myself clear to you. It'd be a waste trying to talk sense into you.

But on this...
You did just strengthen my view. Saying that Tau are non existent in the movement phase is exactly my point. They just have to castle in a corner. And in the assault phase, they still get over watch with everything nearby.

Martel732 wrote:
Scatterbikes and heavy bolters kill them from outside 30".

Ahahahahahahahaha, if I deploy HB units then the Tau player just deploys 6" forward of the board edge and wipes them in turn one.

I love how the Tau players immediately jump on the Eldar player, even though he admits openly that his army is OP as well, and try to lynch him for having an opinion that goes against what they want us to think.

I have played alongside and against Tau. They are broken as hell, but so are the other 3 metadex's.

Got beat as tau by blood angels rocking corbulo and a full deathcompany in a raven, allied nemesis strike force which i managed to kill all but the 2 dreadknights with interceptor. As soon as those dreadknights and death company got close i was rolled.
Everyone needs to get over themselves and play to the weaknesses of the opposing codex. Tau have plenty to exploit, unlike eldar, who generally dont have easily exploited weaknesses.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Hey look, it's the guy who thinks that Vespids are OP!

Seriously though, Tau are hardly as powerful as Eldar. Eldar can dominate in every phase of the game with the right units. Tau may be good in the shooting phase, which is admittedly the most important phase, but movement/psychic/assault are just as important to victory. Tau are nonexistant in two of those phases.

Tau are the strongest of the pre-Necron books, able to hold their own against the newer codexes and utterly dominate the ones from 6th/early 7th edition. But compared to what has come after them, Tau are no longer at the top tier of power. Fortunately, rumor has it they're going to be updated soon.

Sorry, but I have to ignore your opinions. I've already made myself clear to you. It'd be a waste trying to talk sense into you.

But on this...
You did just strengthen my view. Saying that Tau are non existent in the movement phase is exactly my point. They just have to castle in a corner. And in the assault phase, they still get over watch with everything nearby.

Two of them being assault and psychic.
You derped n your hate.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Hey look, it's the guy who thinks that Vespids are OP!

Seriously though, Tau are hardly as powerful as Eldar. Eldar can dominate in every phase of the game with the right units. Tau may be good in the shooting phase, which is admittedly the most important phase, but movement/psychic/assault are just as important to victory. Tau are nonexistant in two of those phases.

Tau are the strongest of the pre-Necron books, able to hold their own against the newer codexes and utterly dominate the ones from 6th/early 7th edition. But compared to what has come after them, Tau are no longer at the top tier of power. Fortunately, rumor has it they're going to be updated soon.

Sorry, but I have to ignore your opinions. I've already made myself clear to you. It'd be a waste trying to talk sense into you.

But on this...
You did just strengthen my view. Saying that Tau are non existent in the movement phase is exactly my point. They just have to castle in a corner. And in the assault phase, they still get over watch with everything nearby.

Two of them being assault and psychic.
You derped n your hate.

They compensate in the lack of Psychic ability in shooting twenty times over. And I had already covered the Assault phase. They don't allow the enemy one.

Martel732 wrote:
Scatterbikes and heavy bolters kill them from outside 30".

That's like saying Gravstar can be killed with Str D. Sure, it can, but it doesn't make it any less powerful to its intended targets.

Tau are super strong. Their special abilities are uncounterable (markerlights) and they chew through invisibility no problem. In terms of mid range high volume fire they are at the same level as eldar AND they have interceptor literally everywhere. Plus fire warriors are probably the best troop in the game outside of scatter bikes - and they are much much cheaper.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Scatterbikes and heavy bolters kill them from outside 30".

Ahahahahahahahaha, if I deploy HB units then the Tau player just deploys 6" forward of the board edge and wipes them in turn one.

I love how the Tau players immediately jump on the Eldar player, even though he admits openly that his army is OP as well, and try to lynch him for having an opinion that goes against what they want us to think.

I have played alongside and against Tau. They are broken as hell, but so are the other 3 metadex's.

This is also the same guy who has problems beating Tau while playing Eldar with no less than two Wraithknights. His credibility is somewhere south of zero.

His group also subscribes to the Tau hate, to the point where they won't play against them. I'm honestly surprised that they haven't kicked the Eldar player out for being a massive block of solid cheddar.

Heavy Bolters are not an effective counter to Tau, Wyverns, on the other hand...

TFC also wreck any imaginary tau overwatch castle.

Or that thing called maelstrom when sitting in a corner isn't an option.

"fire warriors are probably the best troop in the game outside of scatter bikes"

Better than those super-broken Cult Mechanics grav cannon guys? I think not

 Selym wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Scatterbikes and heavy bolters kill them from outside 30".

That's like saying Gravstar can be killed with Str D. Sure, it can, but it doesn't make it any less powerful to its intended targets.

Except the gravstar can't be killed with STR D because of invis.

"Their special abilities are uncounterable (markerlights)"

I know a counter; kill the extremely fragile markerlight platforms...

The primary strength of the Tau is their place in the meta. I can't just load up on drop pods to hammer Tau lists because there are many OTHER lists that I don't want to have to commit against with mass drop pods. I know many non-vanilla marine players are rocking mass drop pods anyway, but that is not my favored tactic. Obviously, if you can take Skyhammer, you do so, but for BA and DA I don't think pods are that strong over all. Against Tau, yes, but not overall.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Scatterbikes and heavy bolters kill them from outside 30".

Ahahahahahahahaha, if I deploy HB units then the Tau player just deploys 6" forward of the board edge and wipes them in turn one.

I love how the Tau players immediately jump on the Eldar player, even though he admits openly that his army is OP as well, and try to lynch him for having an opinion that goes against what they want us to think.

I have played alongside and against Tau. They are broken as hell, but so are the other 3 metadex's.

This is also the same guy who has problems beating Tau while playing Eldar with no less than two Wraithknights. His credibility is somewhere south of zero.

His group also subscribes to the Tau hate, to the point where they won't play against them. I'm honestly surprised that they haven't kicked the Eldar player out for being a massive block of solid cheddar.

Heavy Bolters are not an effective counter to Tau, Wyverns, on the other hand...

You're not reading my posts right.

I had no problems with fighting Tau with dual Wraithknights. As I've said a thousand times, I've taken a listl like that only for Tau. Every other person I play against, I dull my lists down so they can have fun too.
I'm under no delusions, Eldar are OP. I know that. I'm happy to admit, but fair lists can be made with them and the whole game isn't running across the field to attempt to get into CC.

Expanding on Martel's point, that's the same reason why Orks do well.

"I dull my lists down so they can have fun too. "

You shouldn't have to.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Scatterbikes and heavy bolters kill them from outside 30".

Ahahahahahahahaha, if I deploy HB units then the Tau player just deploys 6" forward of the board edge and wipes them in turn one.

I love how the Tau players immediately jump on the Eldar player, even though he admits openly that his army is OP as well, and try to lynch him for having an opinion that goes against what they want us to think.

I have played alongside and against Tau. They are broken as hell, but so are the other 3 metadex's.

This is also the same guy who has problems beating Tau while playing Eldar with no less than two Wraithknights. His credibility is somewhere south of zero.

His group also subscribes to the Tau hate, to the point where they won't play against them. I'm honestly surprised that they haven't kicked the Eldar player out for being a massive block of solid cheddar.

Heavy Bolters are not an effective counter to Tau, Wyverns, on the other hand...

Wyverns are.... Debatable. On the one hand a few good shots will wreck the Fire Warriors. On the other hand the Firewarriors basic pulse guns can kill the wyvern if they get on the flank, railguns and pulse cannon and any form of battlesuit will eat the wyverns. Said wyverns are also pricey.

Martel732 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Scatterbikes and heavy bolters kill them from outside 30".

That's like saying Gravstar can be killed with Str D. Sure, it can, but it doesn't make it any less powerful to its intended targets.

Except the gravstar can't be killed with STR D because of invis.

Ah. Forgot that.

Point still stands though. Replace the Str D part with whatever can kill them, then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
"I dull my lists down so they can have fun too. "

You shouldn't have to.

Tru dat.

" Replace the Str D part with whatever can kill them, then."

I was hoping someone could clue me in on that.

Martel732 wrote:
"I dull my lists down so they can have fun too. "

You shouldn't have to.

That's my point. I have to to enjoy the games. Talk to the writers at GW. I don't write the codexs. I've already admitted Eldar are OP.
But I'm making the point that Tau are the worst offenders.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"I dull my lists down so they can have fun too. "

You shouldn't have to.

That's my point. I have to to enjoy the games. Talk to the writers at GW. I don't write the codexs. I've already admitted Eldar are OP.
But I'm making the point that Tau are the worst offenders.

And I'm telling you that Tau can't hold the Eldar's jock strap. Eldar are rocking awesome psychic powers, shoot and scoot scatbikes, undercosted WKs that are now gargantuan creatures. pseudo rending on all their infantry weapons, the best transport in the game, awesome firepower from Warp Spiders, and Autarchs for reserve shenanigans if necessary. Even Eldar "bad" units are better than most marine units.

Tau have an immortal MC with a ridiculous gun, but the rest of the army is very mortal. I don't think marine players need to be reminded how fragile a 2+ save is now and so broadsides are removed with reasonable firepower and the tau infantry themselves crumple to bolters and flamers and heaven forbid heavy flamers.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"I dull my lists down so they can have fun too. "

You shouldn't have to.

That's my point. I have to to enjoy the games. Talk to the writers at GW. I don't write the codexs. I've already admitted Eldar are OP.
But I'm making the point that Tau are the worst offenders.

Yes but you aren't making a good point. All your point is "I say they're OP and so they are" with no logic to back you up

Martel732 wrote:
" Replace the Str D part with whatever can kill them, then."

I was hoping someone could clue me in on that.

I kinda want to know, too. Just got a text from my friend saying that he wants to put that in his army.

 Selym wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" Replace the Str D part with whatever can kill them, then."

I was hoping someone could clue me in on that.

I kinda want to know, too. Just got a text from my friend saying that he wants to put that in his army.

Be prepared for a lot of hard games. A 24" death radius is no fun.

Tau aren't OP, they're just no fun to play against because they remove core elements of the game (cover, moving and adapting to the enemy).

SGTPozy wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"I dull my lists down so they can have fun too. "

You shouldn't have to.

That's my point. I have to to enjoy the games. Talk to the writers at GW. I don't write the codexs. I've already admitted Eldar are OP.
But I'm making the point that Tau are the worst offenders.

Yes but you aren't making a good point. All your point is "I say they're OP and so they are" with no logic to back you up

Not entirely sure if it was in this post, but I've made plenty of examples to strengthen my argument. That's all I can do. I know everyone won't agree with me because they think their beloved Tau is perfect and completely fair.

Well, they're more fair than Eldar or Necron. Or SKyhammer. Don't get me started on Skyhammer.

Skyhammer is totally fair. I mean what's wrong with Deep Strike Assault Turn one without any overwatch to face, letting you tactically take out core units in the enemy army?

Now Hammerheads, oh man, lemme tell you about Hammerheads. One shot straight at my Ork Trukk and blew the poor thing out of the sky! I had to footslog all my boyz! Tau OP!

/sarcasm

Martel732 wrote:
Well, they're more fair than Eldar or Necron. Or SKyhammer. Don't get me started on Skyhammer.

I'll agree with you on Skyhammer. That thing shouldn't exist. Nor should decurion.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well, they're more fair than Eldar or Necron. Or SKyhammer. Don't get me started on Skyhammer.

I'll agree with you on Skyhammer. That thing shouldn't exist. Nor should decurion.

But they do. And that's the reality, and I have to play them because that's what everyone uses where I play. If I didn't play against strong options, I wouldn't play at all. You can't force other players to self-nerf.

Martel732 wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well, they're more fair than Eldar or Necron. Or SKyhammer. Don't get me started on Skyhammer.

I'll agree with you on Skyhammer. That thing shouldn't exist. Nor should decurion.

But they do. And that's the reality, and I have to play them because that's what everyone uses where I play. If I didn't play against strong options, I wouldn't play at all. You can't force other players to self-nerf.

That legitimate saddens me that no one where you play can take normal, fair lists.
That is an exception for you then. I'm sorry to hear it.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well, they're more fair than Eldar or Necron. Or SKyhammer. Don't get me started on Skyhammer.

I'll agree with you on Skyhammer. That thing shouldn't exist. Nor should decurion.

But they do. And that's the reality, and I have to play them because that's what everyone uses where I play. If I didn't play against strong options, I wouldn't play at all. You can't force other players to self-nerf.

That legitimate saddens me that no one where you play can take normal, fair lists.
That is an exception for you then. I'm sorry to hear it.

Those ARE normal fair lists. No one is taking in illegal option. So how it is not fair for them to be able to choose legal options from their own codex? It's not an exception. There are lots of people using scatterbike/WK lists.

So far as I'm concerned, anyone who can't beat Tau, even with 2-3 riptides, needs to sit down and -think- about what they're fighting. If I can somewhat reliably beat tau with freaking khorne berzerkers and maulerfiends, you really have no leg to stand on.
I hate being that guy to spout out the 'lern2play scrubz' rant, but anyone who has a codex that was printed after Jan 1, 2015 has NO excuse in regards to defeating the cobalt-blooded fascioust meritocracy that are the Tau (seriosly kids, learn what comunism is...) Eldar can no-scatter deep strike 5 d-scythe wraithguard for about the cost of a squad of th/ss termies from what I hear. Blue/Green power armour can point-click their grav-cannons and erase a riptide with impunity. Necrons just march forward their psuedo-immortal infantry spam decurion and delete the Tau.
Has C:TE/FSE aged well? Heck yes. Fusion/Plasma suits are probably second only to warp spiders in overall shooting utility combined with excellent mobility. Riptides still do their Mobile Suite Distraction-Octopus thing. But next time to take your wraithhost, gravstar, or wraithspam decurion against a (now fairly predictable) Tau force... ask to switch sides with them andsee how "OP" they are in comparison.

Moral of the story? Being a pot or kettle, and then accusing a black coffee mug of holding too much water makes you seem like a jerk when you could be an AWESOME person to get an actual fun game in against.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
Not entirely sure if it was in this post, but I've made plenty of examples to strengthen my argument. That's all I can do. I know everyone won't agree with me because they think their beloved Tau is perfect and completely fair.

Allow me to summarize the arguments you have made so far:

Everything in the Tau codex is OP except for Commander Shadowsun.
Riptides are the most OP.
Fire Warriors are OP because they have supporting fire, makerlight support, and a S5 30" rapid fire gun. This is OP compared to lasguns, the worst basic gun in 40k.
People are misreading your posts.

I'm afraid I'm still unconvinced. If you could put together an itemized list of every single unit, relic, and piece of wargear in the Tau codex and explain why every one is "OP", then I might be more sympathetic.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
Not entirely sure if it was in this post, but I've made plenty of examples to strengthen my argument. That's all I can do. I know everyone won't agree with me because they think their beloved Tau is perfect and completely fair.

I don't play Tau, I just burn them off the board with SoB. I'd have more problems if my opponent bought a Riptide, sure. But he'd still need to buff it with Markerlights to make it stronger and that's a lot of points if he wants to be sure.

The Tau can be crippled by taking out Markerlight units unlike certain other armies where every unit either has their own buffs or receives them from some formation. And those poor guys carrying the MLs are soft. Pathfinders are welcome to have their 2+ cover save, my flamers care not.

StarHunter25 wrote:
So far as I'm concerned, anyone who can't beat Tau, even with 2-3 riptides, needs to sit down and -think- about what they're fighting. If I can somewhat reliably beat tau with freaking khorne berzerkers and maulerfiends, you really have no leg to stand on.
I hate being that guy to spout out the 'lern2play scrubz' rant, but anyone who has a codex that was printed after Jan 1, 2015 has NO excuse in regards to defeating the cobalt-blooded fascioust meritocracy that are the Tau (seriosly kids, learn what comunism is...) Eldar can no-scatter deep strike 5 d-scythe wraithguard for about the cost of a squad of th/ss termies from what I hear. Blue/Green power armour can point-click their grav-cannons and erase a riptide with impunity. Necrons just march forward their psuedo-immortal infantry spam decurion and delete the Tau.
Has C:TE/FSE aged well? Heck yes. Fusion/Plasma suits are probably second only to warp spiders in overall shooting utility combined with excellent mobility. Riptides still do their Mobile Suite Distraction-Octopus thing. But next time to take your wraithhost, gravstar, or wraithspam decurion against a (now fairly predictable) Tau force... ask to switch sides with them andsee how "OP" they are in comparison.

Moral of the story? Being a pot or kettle, and then accusing a black coffee mug of holding too much water makes you seem like a jerk when you could be an AWESOME person to get an actual fun game in against.

I've Already stated multiple times about how I know Eldar are OP. I'm trying to say, that against Tau, basically all armies struggle.
I'm getting a little tired of this same argument over and over, but thank you for recognising that I am just trying to make the game, you know, enjoyable.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:


30" S5 AP5 Rapid Fire is ridiculous already. Let's set the scene.
12 Fire Warriors. Add a Cadre Fireblade in, put an Ethereal nearby. That one Fire Warrior team is spitting out 48!!! shots of S5 (wounding most things on 2+) AP5 (Ignoring armour of basically anything that's not MEQ) and all these have the potential of both ignoring cover and shooting at BS5.
If you have the time, pick up 48 dice and roll to hit on 2s, wound on 3s and take all them armour saves of 3+. You can't make that many saves.
Keep in mind that's from one squad.

Most things in the game are T4, so not wounding on 2s. And the Ethereal can only make one squad shot extra per turn. And Eldar can move 12", shoot 36" S6 guns (better than S5) and kill the firewarriors before they even get to shoot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

I've Already stated multiple times about how I know Eldar are OP. I'm trying to say, that against Tau, basically all armies struggle.
I'm getting a little tired of this same argument over and over, but thank you for recognising that I am just trying to make the game, you know, enjoyable.

Well, what do you think of Nids?

Because other than Flyrants, they're considered terrible, and I've tabled Tau everytime I've fought them with my Nids, using non-net lists.

And my Necrons struggle a whole 0% while fighting them.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
Not entirely sure if it was in this post, but I've made plenty of examples to strengthen my argument. That's all I can do. I know everyone won't agree with me because they think their beloved Tau is perfect and completely fair.

Allow me to summarize the arguments you have made so far:

Everything in the Tau codex is OP except for Commander Shadowsun.
Riptides are the most OP.
Fire Warriors are OP because they have supporting fire, makerlight support, and a S5 30" rapid fire gun. This is OP compared to lasguns, the worst basic gun in 40k.
People are misreading your posts.

I'm afraid I'm still unconvinced. If you could put together an itemized list of every single unit, relic, and piece of wargear in the Tau codex and explain why every one is "OP", then I might be more sympathetic.

There's only so much I can do. And your summarisations are taking the context out.
I never expected people like you to be convinced. You will just keep firing back another response after response. It's impossible for you to understand. I'm sorry, but I'll have to just ignore your further responses. It's nothing personal. Just in the interest of preventing a stalemate.

I actually recall when 6th ed tau came out and they WERE op.

Nowadays, they're still a solid army, imo, but others have gotten just ridiculous.

I am a little concerned to see what the new tau codex is going to be.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:


30" S5 AP5 Rapid Fire is ridiculous already. Let's set the scene.
12 Fire Warriors. Add a Cadre Fireblade in, put an Ethereal nearby. That one Fire Warrior team is spitting out 48!!! shots of S5 (wounding most things on 2+) AP5 (Ignoring armour of basically anything that's not MEQ) and all these have the potential of both ignoring cover and shooting at BS5.
If you have the time, pick up 48 dice and roll to hit on 2s, wound on 3s and take all them armour saves of 3+. You can't make that many saves.
Keep in mind that's from one squad.

Most things in the game are T4, so not wounding on 2s. And the Ethereal can only make one squad shot extra per turn. And Eldar can move 12", shoot 36" S6 guns (better than S5) and kill the firewarriors before they even get to shoot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

I've Already stated multiple times about how I know Eldar are OP. I'm trying to say, that against Tau, basically all armies struggle.
I'm getting a little tired of this same argument over and over, but thank you for recognising that I am just trying to make the game, you know, enjoyable.

Well, what do you think of Nids?

Because other than Flyrants, they're considered terrible, and I've tabled Tau everytime I've fought them with my Nids, using non-net lists.

And my Necrons struggle a whole 0% while fighting them.

Ethereals make ALL pulse weapons fire an extra shot within 12" of him.

Also, it may be the way he's playing. I understand that not every game will end up in a win with Tau. The people you're fighting must be absolutely abhorrent with them to lose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I actually recall when 6th ed tau came out and they WERE op.

Nowadays, they're still a solid army, imo, but others have gotten just ridiculous.

I am a little concerned to see what the new tau codex is going to be.

I can only assume they will be buffed even more. It's the trend lately.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:


30" S5 AP5 Rapid Fire is ridiculous already. Let's set the scene.
12 Fire Warriors. Add a Cadre Fireblade in, put an Ethereal nearby. That one Fire Warrior team is spitting out 48!!! shots of S5 (wounding most things on 2+) AP5 (Ignoring armour of basically anything that's not MEQ) and all these have the potential of both ignoring cover and shooting at BS5.
If you have the time, pick up 48 dice and roll to hit on 2s, wound on 3s and take all them armour saves of 3+. You can't make that many saves.
Keep in mind that's from one squad.

Most things in the game are T4, so not wounding on 2s. And the Ethereal can only make one squad shot extra per turn. And Eldar can move 12", shoot 36" S6 guns (better than S5) and kill the firewarriors before they even get to shoot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

I've Already stated multiple times about how I know Eldar are OP. I'm trying to say, that against Tau, basically all armies struggle.
I'm getting a little tired of this same argument over and over, but thank you for recognising that I am just trying to make the game, you know, enjoyable.

Well, what do you think of Nids?

Because other than Flyrants, they're considered terrible, and I've tabled Tau everytime I've fought them with my Nids, using non-net lists.

And my Necrons struggle a whole 0% while fighting them.

Ethereals make ALL pulse weapons fire an extra shot within 12" of him.

Also, it may be the way he's playing. I understand that not every game will end up in a win with Tau. The people you're fighting must be absolutely abhorrent with them to lose.

How long have you played this game? I see you're new on DakkaDakka, but how long have you been playing 40k?

BA can bring a large number of drop pods with heavy flamer armed troops and frag cannon dreadnoughts. The frag cannon dreadnoughts are especially bad, because most of your interceptor fire means nothing to them. This combination will cripple Tau in short order. However, this combo is not universally efficacious which is what saves the Tau.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:


30" S5 AP5 Rapid Fire is ridiculous already. Let's set the scene.
12 Fire Warriors. Add a Cadre Fireblade in, put an Ethereal nearby. That one Fire Warrior team is spitting out 48!!! shots of S5 (wounding most things on 2+) AP5 (Ignoring armour of basically anything that's not MEQ) and all these have the potential of both ignoring cover and shooting at BS5.
If you have the time, pick up 48 dice and roll to hit on 2s, wound on 3s and take all them armour saves of 3+. You can't make that many saves.
Keep in mind that's from one squad.

Most things in the game are T4, so not wounding on 2s. And the Ethereal can only make one squad shot extra per turn. And Eldar can move 12", shoot 36" S6 guns (better than S5) and kill the firewarriors before they even get to shoot.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

I've Already stated multiple times about how I know Eldar are OP. I'm trying to say, that against Tau, basically all armies struggle.
I'm getting a little tired of this same argument over and over, but thank you for recognising that I am just trying to make the game, you know, enjoyable.

Well, what do you think of Nids?

Because other than Flyrants, they're considered terrible, and I've tabled Tau everytime I've fought them with my Nids, using non-net lists.

And my Necrons struggle a whole 0% while fighting them.

Ethereals make ALL pulse weapons fire an extra shot within 12" of him.

Also, it may be the way he's playing. I understand that not every game will end up in a win with Tau. The people you're fighting must be absolutely abhorrent with them to lose.

How long have you played this game? I see you're new on DakkaDakka, but how long have you been playing 40k?

Since 2008. Why?

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

Since 2008. Why?

I'm just wondering if you ever played against Taudar, is all. That was OP.

I don't know what you normally run in your lists, but if you're having this much trouble with Tau, just apply some force to their weak spots. Shoot their Firewarriors from out of range. D the Riptides, ext. Eldar literally have an option to do anything and everything.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

Since 2008. Why?

I'm just wondering if you ever played against Taudar, is all. That was OP.

I don't know what you normally run in your lists, but if you're having this much trouble with Tau, just apply some force to their weak spots. Shoot their Firewarriors from out of range. D the Riptides, ext. Eldar literally have an option to do anything and everything.

Ah, see that's not the point I'm making. It has nothing to do with me having troubles. If I want to obliterate Tau, believe me, I can. What I'm saying is that their whole codex is unbelievably strong. I'm trying to make it better for the other players.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

Since 2008. Why?

I'm just wondering if you ever played against Taudar, is all. That was OP.

I don't know what you normally run in your lists, but if you're having this much trouble with Tau, just apply some force to their weak spots. Shoot their Firewarriors from out of range. D the Riptides, ext. Eldar literally have an option to do anything and everything.

Ah, see that's not the point I'm making. It has nothing to do with me having troubles. If I want to obliterate Tau, believe me, I can. What I'm saying is that their whole codex is unbelievably strong. I'm trying to make it better for the other players.

So....wait....how does that make them OP then? You can easily beat them, I can easily beat them with 2 different armies, and most of the internet don't have issues with them. No one at my store has issues with them. Do you know more people complaining about them?

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I actually recall when 6th ed tau came out and they WERE op.

Nowadays, they're still a solid army, imo, but others have gotten just ridiculous.

I am a little concerned to see what the new tau codex is going to be.

Probably adds cheap CC weapons, and +1 WS and +1 A to all tau models.

Including drones and vehicles.

Tau aren't overpowered. Just use more kroot, pathfinders and stealth suits. Maybe some broadsides with rail rifles and crisis suits with plasma/fusion.
If you really want to handicap yourself, take a bunch of devilfish.

Any list is OP if you just spam the most effective unit.

My army's most effective unit is:

Pask [70 pts]
-Punisher w/Multimeltas, Lascannon, Dozer Blade [175 pts]
-Executioner w/Plasma Cannons, Dozer Blade [190 pts]

[435 points]

Take three or four of those, and you have a "sort of okay" list.

Stay 24" away, outside of gate shenanigans its not gonna be moving very fast.
Its a reletivley easy unit to avoid.

Anyone who says tau deny their enemy an assault phase is off their meds, the combined power and shots is nice if your charging me with one unit, but you get me on the multicharge and that power goes way down really fast.

Coming from someone who had ~10k worth of farsight enclave Tau (sold'em to expand my WE, crazy I know) I'd say the only armies that truely -struggle- against Tau the way that most struggle against the 7.5 dexes are probably orks, tyranids, and DE. And that is literally only because all 3 of those armies rely on one or two gimmicks (normally cover saves of some sort) to keep themselves alive. Everyone else has multiple tools in their arsenal to deal with C:TE.

Necrons: Most of the book, largely because of Decurion, 1-2 units of wraiths with RUIN just about any tau army, unless the tau player knows their stuff.
SW: TWC, Hellfrost and psykers.
BA: Drop podding tacs to clear infantry. Grav bikers/DC to take out suits.
CW:E basically anything in the book.
SM: Grav bikers, cents, and devs for suits. The amazingness that are new ironclads to clear out infantry. FYI podding in ironclads will RUIN Tau. they generally dont handle AV13 well, hate heavy flamers, and abhore close combat. Guess what it has all 3 of?
DA: Basically copypaste SM here, but add in your quite amazing psykers what with their debuffotron5000 powers.
GK: Can be triky but if you're good with NSF and your scatter dice love you, most of the intercepter fire can be mitigated.
IG: AV14. You have tons of it, most Tau seem to leave their fusions/hammerheads at home.
AdMech: Honestly probably the fairest fight. Two very shooty armies that are relatively squishy against one another. Comes down to whose 1st turn of shooting does more.
Knights: Primary knight armies (3-5 knights) are going to drink their tears. Good job, you are basically a hard counter, until he gets fed up and goes FSE and spams fusion suits, then you're boned.
Nids: Dont bother. Flyrants get destroyed by all Tau's skyfire. They're the rock to your scissors.
Orks: See "ignores cover". Look at your saves. Pray you have enough boyz.
DE: See Orks. Replace Boyz with CWE allies.

I play tau and the only army ive had problems with is Daemonkin. Not surewhy, but the mass amount of 12' movers makes it a pain...and everyone basically has a inv save.

Tau had one major advantage: They where the first Sixth Edition Codex.

This meant they had Rules more in line with the nature of Sixth, and also Seventh as it isn't that different, and simply functioned better within the system put forth. Couple that with Sixth Edition's move towards Shooting, and Tau being nothing but a shooting army, and you can see when they picked up the title of 'Most Powerful.' Naturally, as more and more Codex's where upgraded to the modern Rule-set, Tau became less and less powerful in comparison but that reputation has stuck. There are now many more powerful choices, Unit and Army wise, out there but a lot of people refuse to fight the Tau simply on this reputation alone. Even refusing to fight players like myself, who don't touch Rip-tides (Tar-pit lures, nothing but Tar-Pit lures) and prefer to customize characters to make them unique snowflakes instead of the 'must take' options, thinking they have no chance to win against even a fluffy Tau army.

There is one thing to keep in note, that does make them quite powerful, but is sadly something outside of the Rules of the Game. The Tau are one of the most versatile Armies out there, capable of hyper-specializing to meet any situation simply by changing out a few pieces of war-gear! If the Tau player has an idea as to what their opponent is bringing to the table they can hard-counter it easily, and often by simply changing a few lines on the roster and magnetizing pieces to appease the 'What You See' crowd. Given that many players create a few lists, due to limited number of models as those are damn expensive, it can be quite simple for the Tau player to derive hard-counters to what their opponents bring after only a few matches against them. This is the only real 'over-powered' element to the Tau, and it is not something enshrined in Rules but just a side-effect of the Codex being so well written when it comes to versatility.

It is something other Codex's need to enshrine themselves, either through a Unit for every situation or options for upgrading existing Units to fit every situation, in order to create a more balanced game overall. This isn't just to combat the second most versatile Army in the game, but simply because it is common sense for Armies to be able to field a solution to every problem if need be. Yes, I believe they are second best at versatility as I personally believe the Imperial Guard are able to do this a lot better. The big difference is that the Imperial Guard player will need to own more models to gain access to this flexibility, while the Tau only need to change War-gear. Not needing as many models to make a list for every situation is a huge 'out-of-game' buff for the Tau to have!

The real gripe against the Tau is not their over-powered nature, but their lack of 'interaction and imagination.' The Tau are more then willing to skip three of the four phases, favouring the single tactic of hiding behind cover and shooting at you, which can get boring fast. Coupled with fighting the same Units over-and-over, because the Tau player has customized the list against you like a **** or simply believes spamming riptides and missile-sides is the only way to win, and the boredom will get to you long before the dakka-dakka does. This is why most people lose to Tau, in my opinion, because battles of attrition are boring and many people do not want to prolong a boring game any more then necessary so they stop caring what mistakes they make.

Knowing that you are about to play one of the more boring games of Warhammer 40k quickly becomes a 'why bother' exercise... that is the biggest power of the Tau, demoralizing their opponents with boredom!

StarHunter25 wrote:
Coming from someone who had ~10k worth of farsight enclave Tau I'd say the only armies that truely -struggle- against Tau the way that most struggle against the 7.5 dexes are probably orks, tyranids, and DE. And that is literally only because all 3 of those armies rely on one or two gimmicks (normally cover saves of some sort) to keep themselves alive. Everyone else has multiple tools in their arsenal to deal with C:TE.

Aye. Even my SoB can give them hell. My choices of special weapons is melta and flamers, and I can drown Tau in PA bodies. So what if Firewarriors wound on 2+, I still get the 3+ saves. And if I get to firing range those little rats run or die. Once all the infantry is gone they have nothing to win with. My opponent has actually started assaulting me with crisis suits and driving Devilfish at me so I'll destroy them and take losses from the explosions...

If I may farseer you obviously don't have a great eldar army because the list in anyones book is Eldar, Necron, SM, and Tau I have won and lost games against cheesedar before and also been decimated by Eldar and Necrons it all depends on the player, but there are many ways around the tau gunline and seems like you are just one of those people who need to learn the way around it. So please if you feel this is wrong why not say a detailed reason why we are op instead of just listing things that are wrong to begin with. Like for instance riptides are not that bad actually half the time they kill themselves and in most cases a smart player will just engage in melee with it and renders 230pts useless. So have fun sir

as a dark eldar player, I will say, tau are not OP, however, they are annoying and not fun to play against for me, because all my survivability comes from cover, and tau have access to alot of ignores cover.

Tau stuggle with alpa strike lists (drop pods, or in my case, assault on turn 2) if they are tied up (or dead) via combat turn 2, they can't shoot.

scatbikes are OP, razorback spam is OP, steel hordes are OP, but tau are not on the level of those.

I say they are tier 2, eldar are tier 1.

Happy wargaming,

-mikey

JinxDragon wrote:

Knowing that you are about to play one of the more boring games of Warhammer 40k quickly becomes a 'why bother' exercise... that is the biggest power of the Tau, demoralizing their opponents with boredom!

Lel

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
What I'm saying is that their whole codex is unbelievably strong.

Couldn't be farther from the truth in regards to the Tau codex. "The whole codex is unbelievably strong," yet everyone playing Tau uses the same 3-4 units because...because we're just stupid and don't know how our own codex is supposed to work?

Meanwhile, this is actually the case for the Eldar codex; there is literally not one bad unit in the entire book. The only thing that even comes close is the wraithlord and that's just because the spammable wraithknight is so much better, not because the wraithlord is really bad...it's just kinda pointless. But in any case your opinion as an Eldar player is ultimately worthless, you simply have no right to talk.

It really does come off as trolling, like how can anyone seriously believe this? How can someone play hands down the most broken army in the game and yet keep going on about Tau, when the vast majority of the community, full of Tau haters and donkey-caves in general, is still reasonable enough to see the power of the Eldar codex and rank the books appropriately? But whatever.

I don't even necessarily disagree with the idea that Tau need some nerfs. I hate the Tau codex and I'm convinced at this point the army needs to be re-imagined from the ground up because GW's minor tinkering isn't going to change the fact that the army doesn't participate in three out of the game's four phases by design. I'd be cutting gak from the book left and right if I were in charge, and Supporting Fire would be the first thing to go. But if you want to fix Tau proper and make the army more engaging or just plain fun to play with and against then you can't just take, take, take, you need to give something back, too. Massive, heavy-handed, codex-wide nerfs like some people are calling for isn't the way to go. Some specific things need to be nerfed, and many others need buffs, but you can't even mention the word "Tau" and "buff" in the same sentence without some people losing their fething minds.

After seeing the kinda crap I've seen in regards to Tau over the years it's really got me convinced that people just don't want Tau to be viable at all. According to some Tau aren't even supposed to exist, let alone actually win games, and every change they want for Tau is just to see to that end. Because if you make the army worthless and unplayable then you won't have to see the models on the table anymore, and it's easier to pretend they're not even there.

Yeah, the Tau Codex as a whole is certainly not OP.

If I see Riptides, I go nopenopenope, sure.

But if I see stealth suits or something, I don't really see them as big problem. And I play CSM, lol.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
What I'm saying is that their whole codex is unbelievably strong.

Couldn't be farther from the truth in regards to the Tau codex. "The whole codex is unbelievably strong," yet everyone playing Tau uses the same 3-4 units because...because we're just stupid and don't know how our own codex is supposed to work?

Meanwhile, this is actually the case for the Eldar codex; there is literally not one bad unit in the entire book. The only thing that even comes close is the wraithlord and that's just because the spammable wraithknight is so much better, not because the wraithlord is really bad...it's just kinda pointless. But in any case your opinion as an Eldar player is ultimately worthless, you simply have no right to talk.

It really does come off as trolling, like how can anyone seriously believe this? How can someone play hands down the most broken army in the game and yet keep going on about Tau, when the vast majority of the community, full of Tau haters and donkey-caves in general, is still reasonable enough to see the power of the Eldar codex and rank the books appropriately? But whatever.

I don't even necessarily disagree with the idea that Tau need some nerfs. I hate the Tau codex and I'm convinced at this point the army needs to be re-imagined from the ground up because GW's minor tinkering isn't going to change the fact that the army doesn't participate in three out of the game's four phases by design. I'd be cutting gak from the book left and right if I were in charge, and Supporting Fire would be the first thing to go. But if you want to fix Tau proper and make the army more engaging or just plain fun to play with and against then you can't just take, take, take, you need to give something back, too. Massive, heavy-handed, codex-wide nerfs like some people are calling for isn't the way to go. Some specific things need to be nerfed, and many others need buffs, but you can't even mention the word "Tau" and "buff" in the same sentence without some people losing their fething minds.

After seeing the kinda crap I've seen in regards to Tau over the years it's really got me convinced that people just don't want Tau to be viable at all. According to some Tau aren't even supposed to exist, let alone actually win games, and every change they want for Tau is just to see to that end. Because if you make the army worthless and unplayable then you won't have to see the models on the table anymore, and it's easier to pretend they're not even there.

Quoted and Exalted for truth.

Tonight I played my Eldar (Guardian Battlehost + Aspect Host) against a Tau army that had a Riptide, an XV-109 Y'Vahra, and an XV-107 R'Varna (and FNP on all three) at 1750 points. Eldar won. That is the level of power of Craftworld Eldar. Tau are nothing in comparison to what the Eldar codex is capable of bringing.

The reason people only see the same units in Tau is because those are literally the only good units; there is simply no reason to take the other choices as they are simply sub-optimal. I agree that the Tau codex does not need a nerf. What is needs is a substantial redesign. Why can't they have units that are meant for assaulting? Why can't they have psychic powers, or even something like IG orders? Where is the mobility with the codex? Are markerlights a benefit to the army or a crutch?

Knowing GW, all they will do is change some points values around and slap the book full of formations. Hey, it might even fix more problems then it inevitably creates.

Farseer Uruvion this is the second thread you have pitched your crap in. If you can't see it for yourself I'll enlighten you.
In both threads multiple people have told you that Tau as a whole are not overpowered. All you reply with is that you are right and everyone else is wrong.
It's obvious that you have an extremely negative bias toward Tau and you keep putting forth terrible arguments because you have no real argument to begin with.

Yes, it's true have have a handful of strong units that can be a pain in the arse to deal with.
But how come 99% of people can still deal with these fine without multiple Wraithknights on the field? Maybe it has something to do with ability to play the game? Can you even win a game without bringing at least two Wraithknights?

Like seriously you were complaining that Vespids are overpowered because they have S5 AP3 weapons, have you read your codex? What are Darkreapers armed with these days (I haven't seen the new Eldar codex) last codex they were S5 AP3 and I'm betting they are still that. That means they must be horribly broken like Vespids.

You just joined the forums and all you have done is whinge, bitch and complain about how the Tau are broken this and Tau are OP that.

How about you use the forum for what it was made for and contribute to the community and try to learn from others instead of trying to ram your opinion down everyone else's throat.

 master of ordinance wrote:


I have played alongside and against Tau. They are broken as hell, but so are the other 3 metadex's.

False but you can think what you want, ignorance is bliss as they say.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
What I'm saying is that their whole codex is unbelievably strong.

Couldn't be farther from the truth in regards to the Tau codex. "The whole codex is unbelievably strong," yet everyone playing Tau uses the same 3-4 units because...because we're just stupid and don't know how our own codex is supposed to work?

Meanwhile, this is actually the case for the Eldar codex; there is literally not one bad unit in the entire book. The only thing that even comes close is the wraithlord and that's just because the spammable wraithknight is so much better, not because the wraithlord is really bad...it's just kinda pointless. But in any case your opinion as an Eldar player is ultimately worthless, you simply have no right to talk.

It really does come off as trolling, like how can anyone seriously believe this? How can someone play hands down the most broken army in the game and yet keep going on about Tau, when the vast majority of the community, full of Tau haters and donkey-caves in general, is still reasonable enough to see the power of the Eldar codex and rank the books appropriately? But whatever.

I don't even necessarily disagree with the idea that Tau need some nerfs. I hate the Tau codex and I'm convinced at this point the army needs to be re-imagined from the ground up because GW's minor tinkering isn't going to change the fact that the army doesn't participate in three out of the game's four phases by design. I'd be cutting gak from the book left and right if I were in charge, and Supporting Fire would be the first thing to go. But if you want to fix Tau proper and make the army more engaging or just plain fun to play with and against then you can't just take, take, take, you need to give something back, too. Massive, heavy-handed, codex-wide nerfs like some people are calling for isn't the way to go. Some specific things need to be nerfed, and many others need buffs, but you can't even mention the word "Tau" and "buff" in the same sentence without some people losing their fething minds.

After seeing the kinda crap I've seen in regards to Tau over the years it's really got me convinced that people just don't want Tau to be viable at all. According to some Tau aren't even supposed to exist, let alone actually win games, and every change they want for Tau is just to see to that end. Because if you make the army worthless and unplayable then you won't have to see the models on the table anymore, and it's easier to pretend they're not even there.

Okay, let's have a game where I use Storm Guardians, Rangers, Illic Nightspear, Shining Spears and some Night Weavers and we'll see how amazingly destroyed I get.

 gmaleron wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:


I have played alongside and against Tau. They are broken as hell, but so are the other 3 metadex's.

False but you can think what you want, ignorance is bliss as they say.

Really? In what imaginary world are Tau not over powered? Its the same with the Dark Angels, the Necrons, the Eldar and the Space Marines. They just beat the seven bells of hell out of their opponents and stomp all over them.

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:
Farseer Uruvion this is the second thread you have pitched your crap in. If you can't see it for yourself I'll enlighten you.
In both threads multiple people have told you that Tau as a whole are not overpowered. All you reply with is that you are right and everyone else is wrong.
It's obvious that you have an extremely negative bias toward Tau and you keep putting forth terrible arguments because you have no real argument to begin with.

Yes, it's true have have a handful of strong units that can be a pain in the arse to deal with.
But how come 99% of people can still deal with these fine without multiple Wraithknights on the field? Maybe it has something to do with ability to play the game? Can you even win a game without bringing at least two Wraithknights?

Like seriously you were complaining that Vespids are overpowered because they have S5 AP3 weapons, have you read your codex? What are Darkreapers armed with these days (I haven't seen the new Eldar codex) last codex they were S5 AP3 and I'm betting they are still that. That means they must be horribly broken like Vespids.

You just joined the forums and all you have done is whinge, bitch and complain about how the Tau are broken this and Tau are OP that.

How about you use the forum for what it was made for and contribute to the community and try to learn from others instead of trying to ram your opinion down everyone else's throat.

You obviously haven't been reading my posts. I always claim that Eldar are OP too. I'm referencing it in comparison to the other fair codexes.
Before you try making a counterpoint, please do some sort of research. You're taking everything out of proportion.
I only ever said I use dual Wraithknights to deal with Tau, just so I don't have to deal with the cheese. If I play against anyone, I use weakened lists or just don't use Eldar at all.

Please get help for your ignorance. It will help you in life.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Really? In what imaginary world are Tau not over powered? Its the same with the Dark Angels, the Necrons, the Eldar and the Space Marines. They just beat the seven bells of hell out of their opponents and stomp all over them.

Nothing imaginary about it, yes they are a strong army but nothing higher than upper mid tier at the moment especially when compared to the armies you just listed. As mentioned by several people the Tau only have a few units that are good and a lot of the Codex is useless. Maybe you can explain why you think Tau are overpowered instead of just saying they are would be a great help so I can better understand your reasoning.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

You obviously haven't been reading my posts. I always claim that Eldar are OP too. I'm referencing it in comparison to the other fair codexes.
Before you try making a counterpoint, please do some sort of research. You're taking everything out of proportion.
I only ever said I use dual Wraithknights to deal with Tau, just so I don't have to deal with the cheese. If I play against anyone, I use weakened lists or just don't use Eldar at all.

Please get help for your ignorance. It will help you in life.

You literally said that everything in the Tau codex is OP a couple pages ago so you can't get on peoples case about ignorance before you look at yourself. And the fact that you think a standard Tau Army is to me screams that you as a general may need to change some things up when playing against them, instead of bitching and moaning about it why not talk to Tau players to try to find good ways to counter them? And don't pull the whole nothing works bowl excuse because trust me I play in a very competitive environment and my Tau have the ability to lose just like every army.

 gmaleron wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Really? In what imaginary world are Tau not over powered? Its the same with the Dark Angels, the Necrons, the Eldar and the Space Marines. They just beat the seven bells of hell out of their opponents and stomp all over them.

Nothing imaginary about it, yes they are a strong army but nothing higher than upper mid tier at the moment especially when compared to the armies you just listed. As mentioned by several people the Tau only have a few units that are good and a lot of the Codex is useless. Maybe you can explain why you think Tau are overpowered instead of just saying they are would be a great help so I can better understand your reasoning.

Quite simple really. They can counter everything I have and do it well. Their riptides wipe out entire vehicle squadrons and infantry sections on their own, the Hammerheads snipe at long range and take out specific tanks or infantry sections, their basic gun has me out ranged and outgunned and ignores my armour. I can go to ground and use cover with my camo gear but the magic marker light lets them ignore that.
Nothing I have can compete with them on an equal footing.

 gmaleron wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Really? In what imaginary world are Tau not over powered? Its the same with the Dark Angels, the Necrons, the Eldar and the Space Marines. They just beat the seven bells of hell out of their opponents and stomp all over them.

Nothing imaginary about it, yes they are a strong army but nothing higher than upper mid tier at the moment especially when compared to the armies you just listed. As mentioned by several people the Tau only have a few units that are good and a lot of the Codex is useless. Maybe you can explain why you think Tau are overpowered instead of just saying they are would be a great help so I can better understand your reasoning.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

You obviously haven't been reading my posts. I always claim that Eldar are OP too. I'm referencing it in comparison to the other fair codexes.
Before you try making a counterpoint, please do some sort of research. You're taking everything out of proportion.
I only ever said I use dual Wraithknights to deal with Tau, just so I don't have to deal with the cheese. If I play against anyone, I use weakened lists or just don't use Eldar at all.

Please get help for your ignorance. It will help you in life.

You literally said that everything in the Tau codex is OP a couple pages ago so you can't get on peoples case about ignorance before you look at yourself. And the fact that you think a standard Tau Army is to me screams that you as a general may need to change some things up when playing against them, instead of bitching and moaning about it why not talk to Tau players to try to find good ways to counter them? And don't pull the whole nothing works bowl excuse because trust me I play in a very competitive environment and my Tau have the ability to lose just like every army.

I'm not going to take this post seriously if you're not able to think with intelligence.

Every army has a potential to lose. Of course they do.
You're missing my point, like many others.

Let me try and spell it out for you nice and slow...

Eldar are overpowered. Okay? Still with me?
Necrons are slightly OP. Not everything is for them though.
Daemons are OP.
Tau are overpowered. No doubt about it. Are you seeing what I'm trying to point out?

Stop trying to rush to your battlestations just because your saintly Tau are being talked about.
I'm starting to lose effort in this as people just spout out illogical arguments spurred by blind ignorance.
Take a step back from your device and reevaluate yourself before posting. It will help.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Really? In what imaginary world are Tau not over powered? Its the same with the Dark Angels, the Necrons, the Eldar and the Space Marines. They just beat the seven bells of hell out of their opponents and stomp all over them.

Nothing imaginary about it, yes they are a strong army but nothing higher than upper mid tier at the moment especially when compared to the armies you just listed. As mentioned by several people the Tau only have a few units that are good and a lot of the Codex is useless. Maybe you can explain why you think Tau are overpowered instead of just saying they are would be a great help so I can better understand your reasoning.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

You obviously haven't been reading my posts. I always claim that Eldar are OP too. I'm referencing it in comparison to the other fair codexes.
Before you try making a counterpoint, please do some sort of research. You're taking everything out of proportion.
I only ever said I use dual Wraithknights to deal with Tau, just so I don't have to deal with the cheese. If I play against anyone, I use weakened lists or just don't use Eldar at all.

Please get help for your ignorance. It will help you in life.

You literally said that everything in the Tau codex is OP a couple pages ago so you can't get on peoples case about ignorance before you look at yourself. And the fact that you think a standard Tau Army is to me screams that you as a general may need to change some things up when playing against them, instead of bitching and moaning about it why not talk to Tau players to try to find good ways to counter them? And don't pull the whole nothing works bowl excuse because trust me I play in a very competitive environment and my Tau have the ability to lose just like every army.

I'm not going to take this post seriously if you're not able to think with intelligence.

Every army has a potential to lose. Of course they do.
You're missing my point, like many others.

Let me try and spell it out for you nice and slow...

Eldar are overpowered. Okay? Still with me?
Necrons are slightly OP. Not everything is for them though.
Daemons are OP.
Tau are overpowered. No doubt about it. Are you seeing what I'm trying to point out?

Stop trying to rush to your battlestations just because your saintly Tau are being talked about.
I'm starting to lose effort in this as people just spout out illogical arguments spurred by blind ignorance.
Take a step back from your device and reevaluate yourself before posting. It will help.

Yet another exalt Farseer.

Do you know that he actually had the gaul to call me inexperienced in the other thread? I have been playing this game for years and years, probably long before he got involved and he calls me inexperienced?
Oh, and he was also calling for yet more buffs to the Tau.
Some people....

 master of ordinance wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Really? In what imaginary world are Tau not over powered? Its the same with the Dark Angels, the Necrons, the Eldar and the Space Marines. They just beat the seven bells of hell out of their opponents and stomp all over them.

Nothing imaginary about it, yes they are a strong army but nothing higher than upper mid tier at the moment especially when compared to the armies you just listed. As mentioned by several people the Tau only have a few units that are good and a lot of the Codex is useless. Maybe you can explain why you think Tau are overpowered instead of just saying they are would be a great help so I can better understand your reasoning.

Quite simple really. They can counter everything I have and do it well. Their riptides wipe out entire vehicle squadrons and infantry sections on their own, the Hammerheads snipe at long range and take out specific tanks or infantry sections, their basic gun has me out ranged and outgunned and ignores my armour. I can go to ground and use cover with my camo gear but the magic marker light lets them ignore that.
Nothing I have can compete with them on an equal footing.

QFT.

You accuse me of posting unintelligent posts yet all you two are coming off as typical Tau haters who instead of thinking constructively of ways to overcome an army complain and moan and demand army be nerfed into the ground to satisfy you. All I've seen you guys do in this thread is complain and moan how every single unit in the Tau codex is broken which is clearly not the case as has been demonstrated by multiple tell players in this thread. The fact that you continue to ignore what everyone else has said continuously or dismiss their comments as "you don't know what you're talking about" proves how immature you really are. Tau are not broken no matter how much you wish them to be, instead of crying think constructively.

So Farseer Uruvion, you'd say power levels are like this?


Tau > Eldar > Daemons > Necrons > Everything else?

If so... I have to lol. Excuse me while I do...


Necrons are overpowered because of 2 things: Decurion is too good (much more acceptable if it was re-roll 1's instead of +1 to RP) and Wraiths (because GW for some reason decided an already OP unit should get buffed because reasons).

Daemons? Aside from Tzeentch summon spam, Tzeentch flying circus and Tzeentch re-roll 2++ shenanigans, daemons are pretty meh.

Eldar are overpowered because of Scatbikes, WKs, D-spam and apparently Warp Spiders? (This I'm not so sure on as I haven't faced Eldar since way back in 5th. This is just from what I've heard on the interwebs.)

Tau? I mean sure there's the IA Riptide but that's it really...

It's more like:

Eldar > Necrons > Daemons and Space Marines > Dark Angels and Tau (this I'm not to sure of since I haven't seen the new DA in game yet) > Everything else > Chaos Space Marines (we miss you DAs </3)



And before you go calling me a Tau lover... this is coming from the guy who has only won against Tau once since their new codex, and that was back when 7th first came out.>

MattKingsley Mechanicum is well ahead of Tau as well. They have the ability to have 30 inch range 18 shot grav weapons which absolutely murders riptides and other monstrous creatures as well as their standard troopers being able to wound anything with a toughness value on a roll of a six. On top of that they also can boost their ballistic skill to 7 and get 3 shot plasma guns, they are absolutely dirty against Tau and Eldar wraithknight spam and MEQ armies in general. I'm kind of surprised they are constantly overlooked but they are a very strong army. This is especially true when thanks to Imperium of Man armies ally shenanigans you put them all in drop pods with plasma and haywire rifles and annihilate everything.

Ah yes, forgot about Cult Mech and Skitarri, again probably because no one here plays them.

That said, Skitarii only get BS7 for 1 turn, and those 3 shot plasma guns aren't cheap... (Vanguard with Plasma costs ~40pts from memory) Unless of course you run the restrictive WD formation with Knights and Cult Mech to get free upgrades.

That's the one I played against and its rough, but the plasma guns aren't even the dirtiest part. 30 inch 18 shot grav weapons, it will wreck any Riptide or Crsis Suit unit with ease. I believe the unit is the Kataphron destroyers and all of that for only a hundred sixty five points.

Yeah Kataphron Destroyers with Grav are broken has heck. No two ways about it.

 gmaleron wrote:
You accuse me of posting unintelligent posts yet all you two are coming off as typical Tau haters who instead of thinking constructively of ways to overcome an army complain and moan and demand army be nerfed into the ground to satisfy you. All I've seen you guys do in this thread is complain and moan how every single unit in the Tau codex is broken which is clearly not the case as has been demonstrated by multiple tell players in this thread. The fact that you continue to ignore what everyone else has said continuously or dismiss their comments as "you don't know what you're talking about" proves how immature you really are. Tau are not broken no matter how much you wish them to be, instead of crying think constructively.

All right, you tell me how my Imperial Guard are meant to fight something which hard counters everything that we have. You tell us how an army which has been nerfed and nerfed into a static gunline force is meant to compete with a fast and mobile army which has them out ranged and out gunned. You tell us how we are supposed to even get close when everything we have has to endure 1 to 2 turns of indiscriminate pulse fire which ignores our armour and with the magic markerlights is firing at BS5 and/or ignoring our cover - the only defence that we get. You tell us how we are supposed to fight when the rapetides/hammerheads destroy most of our armour on turn 1 and the proceed to massacre our infantry.

Go on. Tell this poor n00b how its done.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
You accuse me of posting unintelligent posts yet all you two are coming off as typical Tau haters who instead of thinking constructively of ways to overcome an army complain and moan and demand army be nerfed into the ground to satisfy you. All I've seen you guys do in this thread is complain and moan how every single unit in the Tau codex is broken which is clearly not the case as has been demonstrated by multiple tell players in this thread. The fact that you continue to ignore what everyone else has said continuously or dismiss their comments as "you don't know what you're talking about" proves how immature you really are. Tau are not broken no matter how much you wish them to be, instead of crying think constructively.

All right, you tell me how my Imperial Guard are meant to fight something which hard counters everything that we have. You tell us how an army which has been nerfed and nerfed into a static gunline force is meant to compete with a fast and mobile army which has them out ranged and out gunned. You tell us how we are supposed to even get close when everything we have has to endure 1 to 2 turns of indiscriminate pulse fire which ignores our armour and with the magic markerlights is firing at BS5 and/or ignoring our cover - the only defence that we get. You tell us how we are supposed to fight when the rapetides/hammerheads destroy most of our armour on turn 1 and the proceed to massacre our infantry.

Go on. Tell this poor n00b how its done.

Exalted.

 master of ordinance wrote:

All right, you tell me how my Imperial Guard are meant to fight something which hard counters everything that we have. You tell us how an army which has been nerfed and nerfed into a static gunline force is meant to compete with a fast and mobile army which has them out ranged and out gunned. You tell us how we are supposed to even get close when everything we have has to endure 1 to 2 turns of indiscriminate pulse fire which ignores our armour and with the magic markerlights is firing at BS5 and/or ignoring our cover - the only defence that we get. You tell us how we are supposed to fight when the rapetides/hammerheads destroy most of our armour on turn 1 and the proceed to massacre our infantry.
Go on. Tell this poor n00b how its done.

First and foremost stop being so defensive and angry, the inexperienced comment was directed towards Farseer because he even accused vespid of all things of being OP and the entire Tau codex. If that came off as a broad generalization consider it a side effect of hearing the same complaints over and over again in particular from Imperial armies while they ignore all the shenanigans they can do at the same time. And believe it or not I am actually in Imperial Guard player first and foremost, I am currently reconstructing an Elysian Drop Troop army as we speak after having to sell them due to a cancer scare and medical bills.

The best way to counter Tau with Imperial Guard I have found is mass Leman Russ spam, Armor 14 is still difficult for Tau to punch through especially at long range. Riptides need a six at best to glance the vehicle or risk a Nova Charge and even then they need a 6 to penetrate it. This also renders the scary Fire Warriors useless when presented with a literal wall of mobile armor 14. You mention Marker Lights, guess what eliminate them first and the Army's effectiveness goes down quite considerably. Also they are very easy to kill, Wyrvens and Leman Russ Eradicator are amazing at this and if you are having issue killing toughness three or four model with a 5 or 4 plus save then you have some other issues going on.

The Hammerhead is also not that good, considering the fact that without Marker Lights it has a 50% chance to miss outside of Longstrike, it is why the vast majority of Tau players take the Sky Ray over it. Also the Riptide is not nearly as scary in regards to its offensive capabilities as you make it out to be. Yes it is durable but outside of getting within 12 inches of you to utilize its fusion blaster which almost will never happen because you're just asking for it to get tar pit it by swarms of Guardsmen who are fearless with a priest it will have a difficult time harming the tanks. Vendettas are also good units both in terms of Firepower and are great Psychological weapons, a lot of fire will be taken off your ground forces to ensure it is brought down quickly. Another army list that I have found that works very well is my Elysian drop troops. Having that many Flyers on the table really cuts down on the damage received by Tau armies. If you would like to know some more advice and tips feel free to ask as long as you do it in a mature and constructive way.

Third and finally you are forgetting one of if not the BIGGEST strength of an Imperial Army, your Ally ability. You are literally Battle Brothers with over half of the Books in the game, cant find anything in your current book to deal with a particular item? Congratulations you now can borrow something from one of your Battle Brothers to fill the hole to accent your army quite nicely. This is the most overlooked things I have seen, especially when people are thinking of ways to construct an army to deal with a particular opponent they are having issue with, especially for Codex's that have not been updated yet this goes a long way in balancing things out until you a new book comes out, or even can be a permanent addition to your force.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
You accuse me of posting unintelligent posts yet all you two are coming off as typical Tau haters who instead of thinking constructively of ways to overcome an army complain and moan and demand army be nerfed into the ground to satisfy you. All I've seen you guys do in this thread is complain and moan how every single unit in the Tau codex is broken which is clearly not the case as has been demonstrated by multiple tell players in this thread. The fact that you continue to ignore what everyone else has said continuously or dismiss their comments as "you don't know what you're talking about" proves how immature you really are. Tau are not broken no matter how much you wish them to be, instead of crying think constructively.

All right, you tell me how my Imperial Guard are meant to fight something which hard counters everything that we have. You tell us how an army which has been nerfed and nerfed into a static gunline force is meant to compete with a fast and mobile army which has them out ranged and out gunned. You tell us how we are supposed to even get close when everything we have has to endure 1 to 2 turns of indiscriminate pulse fire which ignores our armour and with the magic markerlights is firing at BS5 and/or ignoring our cover - the only defence that we get. You tell us how we are supposed to fight when the rapetides/hammerheads destroy most of our armour on turn 1 and the proceed to massacre our infantry.

Go on. Tell this poor n00b how its done.

You do realise a Hammerhead with a Railgun has a 7.4% (9.2% at BS5) chance to actually get a destroyed result on your AV14 Leman Russ tanks and only a 14.8% (18.5% at BS5) chance to get the same on AV12 of a Chimera. Not exactly dependable odds, and that without any coversaves. Your very unlucky if your opponent every time manages to destroy your armour turn one.

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:
You do realise a Hammerhead with a Railgun has a 7.4% (9.2% at BS5) chance to actually get a destroyed result on your AV14 Leman Russ tanks and only a 14.8% (18.5% at BS5) chance to get the same on AV12 of a Chimera. Not exactly dependable odds, and that without any coversaves. Your very unlucky if your opponent every time manages to destroy your armour turn one.

Thank you for the Statistics (to put it plainly I suck at math ) I knew it was an exaggeration but having statistical proof helps!

 gmaleron wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

All right, you tell me how my Imperial Guard are meant to fight something which hard counters everything that we have. You tell us how an army which has been nerfed and nerfed into a static gunline force is meant to compete with a fast and mobile army which has them out ranged and out gunned. You tell us how we are supposed to even get close when everything we have has to endure 1 to 2 turns of indiscriminate pulse fire which ignores our armour and with the magic markerlights is firing at BS5 and/or ignoring our cover - the only defence that we get. You tell us how we are supposed to fight when the rapetides/hammerheads destroy most of our armour on turn 1 and the proceed to massacre our infantry.
Go on. Tell this poor n00b how its done.

First and foremost stop being so defensive and angry, the inexperienced comment was directed towards Farseer because he even accused vespid of all things of being OP and the entire Tau codex. If that came off as a broad generalization consider it a side effect of hearing the same complaints over and over again in particular from Imperial armies while they ignore all the shenanigans they can do at the same time. And believe it or not I am actually in Imperial Guard player first and foremost, I am currently reconstructing an Elysian Drop Troop army as we speak after having to sell them due to a cancer scare and medical bills.

The best way to counter Tau with Imperial Guard I have found is mass Leman Russ spam, Armor 14 is still difficult for Tau to punch through especially at long range. Riptides need a six at best to glance the vehicle or risk a Nova Charge and even then they need a 6 to penetrate it. This also renders the scary Fire Warriors useless when presented with a literal wall of mobile armor 14. You mention Marker Lights, guess what eliminate them first and the Army's effectiveness goes down quite considerably. Also they are very easy to kill, Wyrvens and Leman Russ Eradicator are amazing at this and if you are having issue killing toughness three or four model with a 5 or 4 plus save then you have some other issues going on.

The Hammerhead is also not that good, considering the fact that without Marker Lights it has a 50% chance to miss outside of Longstrike, it is why the vast majority of Tau players take the Sky Ray over it. Also the Riptide is not nearly as scary in regards to its offensive capabilities as you make it out to be. Yes it is durable but outside of getting within 12 inches of you to utilize its fusion blaster which almost will never happen because you're just asking for it to get tar pit it by swarms of Guardsmen who are fearless with a priest it will have a difficult time harming the tanks. Vendettas are also good units both in terms of Firepower and are great Psychological weapons, a lot of fire will be taken off your ground forces to ensure it is brought down quickly. Another army list that I have found that works very well is my Elysian drop troops. Having that many Flyers on the table really cuts down on the damage received by Tau armies. If you would like to know some more advice and tips feel free to ask as long as you do it in a mature and constructive way.

Third and finally you are forgetting one of if not the BIGGEST strength of an Imperial Army, your Ally ability. You are literally Battle Brothers with over half of the Books in the game, cant find anything in your current book to deal with a particular item? Congratulations you now can borrow something from one of your Battle Brothers to fill the hole to accent your army quite nicely. This is the most overlooked things I have seen, especially when people are thinking of ways to construct an army to deal with a particular opponent they are having issue with, especially for Codex's that have not been updated yet this goes a long way in balancing things out until you a new book comes out, or even can be a permanent addition to your force.

I couldn't agree more. As a Tau player I hate the cheap AV14 guard can put on the field. And just generally I hate how guard can get such good flyers for so cheap, their so effective for their points you could almost call them OP
bring a pair of them Vulture gunships with twin-linked Punisher cannons, you will rape more than Tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:
You do realise a Hammerhead with a Railgun has a 7.4% (9.2% at BS5) chance to actually get a destroyed result on your AV14 Leman Russ tanks and only a 14.8% (18.5% at BS5) chance to get the same on AV12 of a Chimera. Not exactly dependable odds, and that without any coversaves. Your very unlucky if your opponent every time manages to destroy your armour turn one.

Thank you for the Statistics (to put it plainly I suck at math ) I knew it was an exaggeration but having statistical proof helps!

No problem, anything to show people how ineffective Hammerhead are lol

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

All right, you tell me how my Imperial Guard are meant to fight something which hard counters everything that we have. You tell us how an army which has been nerfed and nerfed into a static gunline force is meant to compete with a fast and mobile army which has them out ranged and out gunned. You tell us how we are supposed to even get close when everything we have has to endure 1 to 2 turns of indiscriminate pulse fire which ignores our armour and with the magic markerlights is firing at BS5 and/or ignoring our cover - the only defence that we get. You tell us how we are supposed to fight when the rapetides/hammerheads destroy most of our armour on turn 1 and the proceed to massacre our infantry.
Go on. Tell this poor n00b how its done.

First and foremost stop being so defensive and angry, the inexperienced comment was directed towards Farseer because he even accused vespid of all things of being OP and the entire Tau codex. If that came off as a broad generalization consider it a side effect of hearing the same complaints over and over again in particular from Imperial armies while they ignore all the shenanigans they can do at the same time. And believe it or not I am actually in Imperial Guard player first and foremost, I am currently reconstructing an Elysian Drop Troop army as we speak after having to sell them due to a cancer scare and medical bills.

The best way to counter Tau with Imperial Guard I have found is mass Leman Russ spam, Armor 14 is still difficult for Tau to punch through especially at long range. Riptides need a six at best to glance the vehicle or risk a Nova Charge and even then they need a 6 to penetrate it. This also renders the scary Fire Warriors useless when presented with a literal wall of mobile armor 14. You mention Marker Lights, guess what eliminate them first and the Army's effectiveness goes down quite considerably. Also they are very easy to kill, Wyrvens and Leman Russ Eradicator are amazing at this and if you are having issue killing toughness three or four model with a 5 or 4 plus save then you have some other issues going on.

The Hammerhead is also not that good, considering the fact that without Marker Lights it has a 50% chance to miss outside of Longstrike, it is why the vast majority of Tau players take the Sky Ray over it. Also the Riptide is not nearly as scary in regards to its offensive capabilities as you make it out to be. Yes it is durable but outside of getting within 12 inches of you to utilize its fusion blaster which almost will never happen because you're just asking for it to get tar pit it by swarms of Guardsmen who are fearless with a priest it will have a difficult time harming the tanks. Vendettas are also good units both in terms of Firepower and are great Psychological weapons, a lot of fire will be taken off your ground forces to ensure it is brought down quickly. Another army list that I have found that works very well is my Elysian drop troops. Having that many Flyers on the table really cuts down on the damage received by Tau armies. If you would like to know some more advice and tips feel free to ask as long as you do it in a mature and constructive way.

Third and finally you are forgetting one of if not the BIGGEST strength of an Imperial Army, your Ally ability. You are literally Battle Brothers with over half of the Books in the game, cant find anything in your current book to deal with a particular item? Congratulations you now can borrow something from one of your Battle Brothers to fill the hole to accent your army quite nicely. This is the most overlooked things I have seen, especially when people are thinking of ways to construct an army to deal with a particular opponent they are having issue with, especially for Codex's that have not been updated yet this goes a long way in balancing things out until you a new book comes out, or even can be a permanent addition to your force.

I couldn't agree more. As a Tau player I hate the cheap AV14 guard can put on the field. And just generally I hate how guard can get such good flyers for so cheap, their so effective for their points you could almost call them OP
bring a pair of them Vulture gunships with twin-linked Punisher cannons, you will rape more than Tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:
You do realise a Hammerhead with a Railgun has a 7.4% (9.2% at BS5) chance to actually get a destroyed result on your AV14 Leman Russ tanks and only a 14.8% (18.5% at BS5) chance to get the same on AV12 of a Chimera. Not exactly dependable odds, and that without any coversaves. Your very unlucky if your opponent every time manages to destroy your armour turn one.

Thank you for the Statistics (to put it plainly I suck at math ) I knew it was an exaggeration but having statistical proof helps!

No problem, anything to show people how ineffective Hammerhead are lol

Cheap?! We are paying 120 points for an Exterminator, and that is 4 TL Autocannon shots with a 36" range and a HB in the hull. Our tanks vary from fairly priced to a little expensive to massively over priced (Demolisher I am looking at you) and they are very very vulnerable in close assault. Or to flanking attacks. Or to Melta. And they can only move 6" per turn. and we no longer have LB.
I would gladly take an AV 13/12/10 skimmer with a Railgun over a Leman Russ any day.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Cheap?! We are paying 120 points for an Exterminator, and that is 4 TL Autocannon shots with a 36" range and a HB in the hull. Our tanks vary from fairly priced to a little expensive to massively over priced (Demolisher I am looking at you) and they are very very vulnerable in close assault. Or to flanking attacks. Or to Melta. And they can only move 6" per turn. and we no longer have LB.
I would gladly take an AV 13/12/10 skimmer with a Railgun over a Leman Russ any day.

That is pretty fairly priced because you are also forgetting to add the fact they have 3 Hull Points and a 14-13-11/10 Armor stat line which is nothing to sneeze at, also throw Heavy Bolters on there. Now you have x4 TL-Autocannon Shots on top of x9 Heavy Bolter Shots. Also the same weakness of "Vulnerable to Close Assault or Flanking Attacks or to Melta" goes the same for ANY Tank, not just Imperial Ones. You can only move 6 inches a turn, whats the problem? You move up into range and start blasting away at the Tau player daring him to get close and leave his Gunline (if he is running it because I personally play very aggressive with mine) and again I will say it, Leman Russ Eradicators. These guys alone will do HORRIBLE things to heavy Fire Warrior Tau lists. A S6 AP4 Large Blast that Ignores Cover will decimate Fire Warriors, Pathfinders, Stealth Suits, Marker Light Drones and still wound Crisis Suits on a 2+ to inflict as many wounds as possible.

Cheap?! We are paying 120 points for an Exterminator, and that is 4 TL Autocannon shots with a 36" range and a HB in the hull. Our tanks vary from fairly priced to a little expensive to massively over priced (Demolisher I am looking at you) and they are very very vulnerable in close assault. Or to flanking attacks. Or to Melta. And they can only move 6" per turn. and we no longer have LB.
I would gladly take an AV 13/12/10 skimmer with a Railgun over a Leman Russ any day.

There's your problem, taking a glorified auto cannon as your tank hunter (just assuming lol)
that being said, Leman Russ tanks are like Tau crisis suit as in they are made for specific tasks. Don't take a punisher with pask and expect it to kill a riptide because its rending or kill a tank for the same reason. If your wondering pasks punisher will put out 3 armour saves and 3 rending shots per turn against a T6 model, and if its a riptide expect 1, or maybe 2 wounds if your lucky. see not that effective.
but that punisher against a fire warrior squad would be almost 14 wounds and 2 would be rending. after armour save you would expect to kill 9 (7 from fail saves and 2 from rending)
punisher vs crisis suits gives 3 wounds after saving throws.
punisher vs broadsides gives almost 2 wounds.

and for kicks,
Leman Russ Vanquisher has a 6.2% chance to get an explodes result on AV14. Thats only 1.2% less than a Hammerhead and the Vanquisher is only 10 more points than a Hammerhead. But for 10 points your getting 1 point more on your front and side AV's, plus you can move and shoot all your weapons.
against AV 12 it has a 7.1% to get an explodes result. not as good as the Hammerhead but mainly because its an AP2 weapon.
Just so you know your anti-tank tank is just as good as a Hammerhead i'll have you know it has a 75% chance to penetrate AV14 and an awesome 86% chance to penetrate AV12. thats some of the best odds in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the Demolisher is very well priced I think. Its 45 points more than a Vindicator and gets 1 point extra to its front armour, 2 points to its side armour and 1 point to its rear armour. plus it can get upgrades like +1 cover save.

I think its very reasonable indeed.

I like how the hammerhead railgun is now the most OP weapon in the game.

Yeah man, get those fething weak-sauce Eldar D-weapons out of here, the hammerhead railgun is true, indescribable power.

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:
There's your problem, taking a glorified auto cannon as your tank hunter (just assuming lol)

Which is hilarious because it probably is a more effective tank hunter than the hammerhead. Ever since the advent of hull points mid-strength, high-ROF weaponry has been better at taking out vehicles than high-strength, single-shot weapons. Tanks like the hammerhead and vanquisher, famed armor killers in the fluff, are garbage compared to just spamming as many autocannons, scatter lasers, or missiles as humanly possible.

Riptides need a six at best to glance the vehicle or risk a Nova Charge and even then they need a 6 to penetrate it{\

your also forgot to mention that to become strength 8 and be able to glance, they have a gets hot roll to make. That means a 16% chance to fail which is the same as their chance to glance meaning that a Riptide has a 2.7% to glance your AV14 providing it also scores a hit when rolling for scatter. To fire the Ordnance round and have a chance to destroy you it need to use its nova reactor. meaning 49% chance for the shot to not even be fired in the first place and all at the risk of hurting yourself.

Also the Riptide is not nearly as scary in regards to its offensive capabilities as you make it out to be. Yes it is durable but outside of getting within 12 inches of you to utilize its fusion blaster which almost will never happen because you're just asking for it to get tar pit it by swarms of Guardsmen who are fearless with a priest it will have a difficult time harming the tanks.

Fusion blaster is 18" so you do get to use it surprisingly a lot. And most of the time a Jetpack move will put you safely out of charge range assuming your trying to get close for a charge or for the extra D6 from melta.

And I completely agree. On offensive capabilities, the Riptide is more or less a pushover by himself. Without markerlights he is less likely to hit and with give cover saves to enemy models he shoots. Even with the IA he doesn't do a lot of damage quickly without markerlight support unless your lucky and get direct hits all the time. and if your me, you need to be lucky enough to pass your gets hot roll once a game.
And without markerlights a HBC Riptide is even more of a joke.

But his effectiveness is boosted considerably because unlike other useless models he with be alive most of, if not the entire game length giving him a chance to actually kill something.

IMOH


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sidstyler wrote:
I like how the hammerhead railgun is now the most OP weapon in the game.

Yeah man, get those fething weak-sauce Eldar D-weapons out of here, the hammerhead railgun is true, indescribable power.

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:
There's your problem, taking a glorified auto cannon as your tank hunter (just assuming lol)

Which is hilarious because it probably is a more effective tank hunter than the hammerhead. Ever since the advent of hull points mid-strength, high-ROF weaponry has been better at taking out vehicles than high-strength, single-shot weapons. Tanks like the hammerhead and vanquisher, famed armor killers in the fluff, are garbage compared to just spamming as many autocannons, scatter lasers, or missiles as humanly possible.

True, spamming mid-strength weaponry is probably more effective, but for some reason I always find myself taking my Hammerhead with Longstike and my pair of railsides, as well as the odd fusion blaster and my riptides lol I do struggle against armour but I love my Railguns. On a quick note, I do find Longstrike mostly useless because he always rolls a one to hit but if i ever use markerlights on him he rolls 5's and 6's hit lol its almost like the curse of the meltagun.

and just because i cant help myself, the Exterminator autocannon will average 1 hull point per shooting attack against AV 12. where as the Hammerhead will only average 0.5 hull points, making the exterminator twice as effective at taking hull points lol.

The difference is that you take hammerheads for lols, and if you want real anti tank, you have it in your codex. Missilisids, fusion suits etc. IG options you list that are a worse then the tau options you take for fun have no replacment. We don't have a high resilient multi shot unit with medium strenght. We don't have fast moving and long range melta, that doesn't die after it somehow gets in to range.

And the argument that riptides are not that good, because they need marker lights? Show me an tau army without them, what is worse those market light units are easier to protect and hide then IG order givers.

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:

Cheap?! We are paying 120 points for an Exterminator, and that is 4 TL Autocannon shots with a 36" range and a HB in the hull. Our tanks vary from fairly priced to a little expensive to massively over priced (Demolisher I am looking at you) and they are very very vulnerable in close assault. Or to flanking attacks. Or to Melta. And they can only move 6" per turn. and we no longer have LB.
I would gladly take an AV 13/12/10 skimmer with a Railgun over a Leman Russ any day.

There's your problem, taking a glorified auto cannon as your tank hunter (just assuming lol)
that being said, Leman Russ tanks are like Tau crisis suit as in they are made for specific tasks. Don't take a punisher with pask and expect it to kill a riptide because its rending or kill a tank for the same reason. If your wondering pasks punisher will put out 3 armour saves and 3 rending shots per turn against a T6 model, and if its a riptide expect 1, or maybe 2 wounds if your lucky. see not that effective.
but that punisher against a fire warrior squad would be almost 14 wounds and 2 would be rending. after armour save you would expect to kill 9 (7 from fail saves and 2 from rending)
punisher vs crisis suits gives 3 wounds after saving throws.
punisher vs broadsides gives almost 2 wounds.

and for kicks,
Leman Russ Vanquisher has a 6.2% chance to get an explodes result on AV14. Thats only 1.2% less than a Hammerhead and the Vanquisher is only 10 more points than a Hammerhead. But for 10 points your getting 1 point more on your front and side AV's, plus you can move and shoot all your weapons.
against AV 12 it has a 7.1% to get an explodes result. not as good as the Hammerhead but mainly because its an AP2 weapon.
Just so you know your anti-tank tank is just as good as a Hammerhead i'll have you know it has a 75% chance to penetrate AV14 and an awesome 86% chance to penetrate AV12. thats some of the best odds in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the Demolisher is very well priced I think. Its 45 points more than a Vindicator and gets 1 point extra to its front armour, 2 points to its side armour and 1 point to its rear armour. plus it can get upgrades like +1 cover save.

I think its very reasonable indeed.

No, that is my cheapest tank. My tankhunter is far pricier.
Okay, so those 2 sponsons are what, another 15 - 20 points. So now we have a 135 - 140 point infantry killer. But you still get your cover saves.

The Vanquisher is a joke tank right now and is about as nasty as a wet hanky against armour. From your comments thus far I can see that you have never used IG. Put bluntly a Vanquisher has a 50% chance of hitting. Then it has a 1/6 chance of blowing the target, assuming it penetrates (likely) and the target does not have cover/does not jink (unlikely) And it cant fire HE shells like the railgun.
Oh, and your Hammerhead has a 50% chance to damage AV14 too so, you know... Or if it is ordnance (I cant recall) then that is increased to a 75% chance.

It is also slower, no LRBT can fire its secondary weapons at anything other than snapfire if its main gun is an ordnance weapon, and the extra armour is negligible with the D strength spam.

The Demolisher is considered over priced by most of the community. You are paying 170 points for a Demolisher cannon and a Heavy Bolter. Now bare in mind that to function it has to get close to the enemy, a position that leaves the tank incredibly vulnerable to enemy troops and to get there it has to spend 2-3 turns crossing the board. If it makes it in then once again it is not my problem.

So, a BS3 14/13/11 tank with a Demolisher cannon and a HB that can only move 6" a turn is worth 170 points? I think not.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:

Cheap?! We are paying 120 points for an Exterminator, and that is 4 TL Autocannon shots with a 36" range and a HB in the hull. Our tanks vary from fairly priced to a little expensive to massively over priced (Demolisher I am looking at you) and they are very very vulnerable in close assault. Or to flanking attacks. Or to Melta. And they can only move 6" per turn. and we no longer have LB.
I would gladly take an AV 13/12/10 skimmer with a Railgun over a Leman Russ any day.

There's your problem, taking a glorified auto cannon as your tank hunter (just assuming lol)
that being said, Leman Russ tanks are like Tau crisis suit as in they are made for specific tasks. Don't take a punisher with pask and expect it to kill a riptide because its rending or kill a tank for the same reason. If your wondering pasks punisher will put out 3 armour saves and 3 rending shots per turn against a T6 model, and if its a riptide expect 1, or maybe 2 wounds if your lucky. see not that effective.
but that punisher against a fire warrior squad would be almost 14 wounds and 2 would be rending. after armour save you would expect to kill 9 (7 from fail saves and 2 from rending)
punisher vs crisis suits gives 3 wounds after saving throws.
punisher vs broadsides gives almost 2 wounds.

and for kicks,
Leman Russ Vanquisher has a 6.2% chance to get an explodes result on AV14. Thats only 1.2% less than a Hammerhead and the Vanquisher is only 10 more points than a Hammerhead. But for 10 points your getting 1 point more on your front and side AV's, plus you can move and shoot all your weapons.
against AV 12 it has a 7.1% to get an explodes result. not as good as the Hammerhead but mainly because its an AP2 weapon.
Just so you know your anti-tank tank is just as good as a Hammerhead i'll have you know it has a 75% chance to penetrate AV14 and an awesome 86% chance to penetrate AV12. thats some of the best odds in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the Demolisher is very well priced I think. Its 45 points more than a Vindicator and gets 1 point extra to its front armour, 2 points to its side armour and 1 point to its rear armour. plus it can get upgrades like +1 cover save.

I think its very reasonable indeed.

No, that is my cheapest tank. My tankhunter is far pricier.
Okay, so those 2 sponsons are what, another 15 - 20 points. So now we have a 135 - 140 point infantry killer. But you still get your cover saves.

The Vanquisher is a joke tank right now and is about as nasty as a wet hanky against armour. From your comments thus far I can see that you have never used IG. Put bluntly a Vanquisher has a 50% chance of hitting. Then it has a 1/6 chance of blowing the target, assuming it penetrates (likely) and the target does not have cover/does not jink (unlikely) And it cant fire HE shells like the railgun.
Oh, and your Hammerhead has a 50% chance to damage AV14 too so, you know... Or if it is ordnance (I cant recall) then that is increased to a 75% chance.

It is also slower, no LRBT can fire its secondary weapons at anything other than snapfire if its main gun is an ordnance weapon, and the extra armour is negligible with the D strength spam.

The Demolisher is considered over priced by most of the community. You are paying 170 points for a Demolisher cannon and a Heavy Bolter. Now bare in mind that to function it has to get close to the enemy, a position that leaves the tank incredibly vulnerable to enemy troops and to get there it has to spend 2-3 turns crossing the board. If it makes it in then once again it is not my problem.

So, a BS3 14/13/11 tank with a Demolisher cannon and a HB that can only move 6" a turn is worth 170 points? I think not.

An Eradicator is your infantry killer, why try and make an exterminator be something it's not? Just a waste of points IMHO

A railguns function is not to glance vehicles to death, it would take an average of like 4 or 5 turns for that.
The blast on a Hammerhead is a purchased upgrade just so you know.

I don't play guard but I play against them, and there more than enough trouble trust me.
Hammerhead isn't ordnance.
Demolished cannon has 24" range, same as a lot of weapons in 40k. It's not getting close, and I don't know how you do your deployment but you and your opponent are seperated by a 24" gap, if you move 6" you will be in range of something more often then not. You shouldn't need two or three turns driving aimlessly. If it is incredibly vulnerable, that's because it's got a bullseye on it. If you park a weapon like that in the midfield, people are going to ignore your other units because it's the most immediate threat to their near by units.

 master of ordinance wrote:

No, that is my cheapest tank. My tankhunter is far pricier.
Okay, so those 2 sponsons are what, another 15 - 20 points. So now we have a 135 - 140 point infantry killer. But you still get your cover saves.
The Vanquisher is a joke tank right now and is about as nasty as a wet hanky against armour. From your comments thus far I can see that you have never used IG. Put bluntly a Vanquisher has a 50% chance of hitting. Then it has a 1/6 chance of blowing the target, assuming it penetrates (likely) and the target does not have cover/does not jink (unlikely) And it cant fire HE shells like the railgun.
Oh, and your Hammerhead has a 50% chance to damage AV14 too so, you know... Or if it is ordnance (I cant recall) then that is increased to a 75% chance.
It is also slower, no LRBT can fire its secondary weapons at anything other than snapfire if its main gun is an ordnance weapon, and the extra armour is negligible with the D strength spam.
The Demolisher is considered over priced by most of the community. You are paying 170 points for a Demolisher cannon and a Heavy Bolter. Now bare in mind that to function it has to get close to the enemy, a position that leaves the tank incredibly vulnerable to enemy troops and to get there it has to spend 2-3 turns crossing the board. If it makes it in then once again it is not my problem.
So, a BS3 14/13/11 tank with a Demolisher cannon and a HB that can only move 6" a turn is worth 170 points? I think not.

A few points:

-If you take the Exterminator then yes they would still get their Cover Saves, the Eradicator on the other hand negates that completely.

-I agree the Vanquisher is not that great UNLESS you take it from Imperial Armor Volume #1 Second Edition and the Armored Company list. You can give it a Stubber that acts like an old Scatter Laser (if it hits it Twin Links the Vanquisher Cannon) and Beast Hunter Shells (S8 AP2 Small Blast, Instant Death).

-The Railgun is only a Heavy 1 and your Math is flawed, you are not taking into account every aspect of the equation such as the Roll to Hit and Penetrate and then you have to take in other variables such as Cover. It suffers from the same problem as the Vanquisher where it is only a single shot with subpar Ballistic Skill, hence the dependency on Marker Lights and a unit that is dependent upon another is not what I would call cost effective.

-There is an actual debate on the Ordnace Weapons firing with Sponsons that I discovered when I had my Tanks. Apparently in the Rulebook it states you pick and choose which weapon to fire, so what is stopping you from firing the Sponsons First and then the main gun? Again id have to check it again with my Rulebook but just giving you a heads up.

-Also a 24 inch range weapon really is not that bad, one of the things that is exaggerated the most on here is the ranges of weapons. People often talk like the tables are infinitely huge when in reality because of the table limitations its not nearly as bad as its made out to be. And you need to think of it as effectively having a 30 inch range when combined with movement and if your having to spend more then 2 turns to get in range then I would be surprised. Also it is a DEMOLISHER CANNON! S10 AP2 is nothing to sneeze at and it terrifies most opponents, however between you and me I think a 10pt. decrease would be helpful as I do think its a little overcosted myself.

Makumba wrote:
The difference is that you take hammerheads for lols, and if you want real anti tank, you have it in your codex. Missilisids, fusion suits etc. IG options you list that are a worse then the tau options you take for fun have no replacment. We don't have a high resilient multi shot unit with medium strenght. We don't have fast moving and long range melta, that doesn't die after it somehow gets in to range.

And the argument that riptides are not that good, because they need marker lights? Show me an tau army without them, what is worse those market light units are easier to protect and hide then IG order givers.

A couple points:

-Marker Lights are easily countered by Wyrvens and Eradicators because you NEED them to have LOS when the game starts, you move them then have to snap shot because they are a Heavy 1 weapon. Also they are the Tau armies WEAKNESS, its the easiest thing to identify. Kill the Marker Lights first and the rest of the army is hurt.
-Missile Sides wont do anything against Leman Russes unless they are gifted a side shot and even then they need 6's to even glance it.
-Fusion Suits are great options, if they don't scatter when they arrive and hit with their Fusion Blasters, again dependent on Marker Lights.
-Im sorry? I fail to see how an Armor 14 tank is not considered a high resilient or with Punishers and Exterminators a multi-shot unit.

And I just have to point out again, why is the Ally option continuously ignored by Imperium players? Still easily your greatest strength at the moment.

I have an Eradicator, true they are great against medium infantry but with a 36" range it has to endure the Tau shooting phase to get within effective range.

No matter how you put it the Demolisher is still massively over priced. I use a Thunderer instead, it is 40 points cheaper and actually worth something.

Those three turns of driving are allowing for Devilfish airlifts dragging everything out of the way. But if not then it is two turns to advance within effective range.

And dont forget that it has to endure:
Stealth suits
Battle suits
Riptides
Other crazy stuff

Just to get there.

 master of ordinance wrote:
I have an Eradicator, true they are great against medium infantry but with a 36" range it has to endure the Tau shooting phase to get within effective range.
No matter how you put it the Demolisher is still massively over priced. I use a Thunderer instead, it is 40 points cheaper and actually worth something.
Those three turns of driving are allowing for Devilfish airlifts dragging everything out of the way. But if not then it is two turns to advance within effective range.
And dont forget that it has to endure:
Stealth suits
Battle suits
Riptides
Other crazy stuff
Just to get there.

-The Eradicator effectively has as 42 inch range (including movement) and it really can endure the Tau Shooting phase from that distance thanks to its Armor 14 front hull. Tau long range firepower that can effectively hurt an Eradicator is almost completely S8, besides the Riptide (to make it S9 it has a 1/3 chance to fail and get no save of any kind unless you get an expensive Feel no Pain upgrade) and the Hammerhead (which already mentioned has the same drawbacks as the Vanquisher). Also the Eradicator is VERY cheap even with Heavy Bolters and even better you can take squadrons of them!

-I agree the Demolisher is overcosted, but Devilfish shenanigans can be limited by good Deployment and Movement, remember you can still gun it 12 inches forward if you are out of range ensuring you get that turn 2 shot.

To break down the units you listed:

-Battle Suits: Great at taking out armor with Deep Striking Fusion Suits, however they wont appear on the table until Turn 2 at the earliest and Turn 4 at the latest. Also they have the potential to Scatter unless they take Farsight or get lucky on the Warlord table and then they have to bank on Marker Lights (which by turn 2 you will have made them a primary target) or be forced to rely on BS3. Also chances are you will have the back and side armor covered by your cheap infantry as you move up the table.

-Stealth Suits: They can only take x2 Fusion Blasters max per squad and they are VERY expensive points wise. Ironically this is where the Eradicator shines as well because it ignores cover! Granted they would still get a 3+ armor save however its much better then a 2+ armor save and you still wound on 2's.

-Riptides: Again a Riptide when it comes to Long Range Firepower against Heavy Armor is really only truly scary against Infantry. First it will have to pass its Nova Charge with a 1/3 chance to hurt itself, then it has to shoot a Large Blast at BS3 (unless supported by Markerlights) for a single S9 AP2 Ordnance hit, it will need to roll a 5 minimum on 2 dice which does favor the Tau player when it comes to Averages but crazy things have happened, then if it Penetrates it has to roll a 6 to blow you up. This is of course not counting if you are in cover or not, Psychic power ect. And the Fusion Blaster has an 18 inch range (so it would have to be within 9 inches to get the Melta bonus) and why would you ever move that close? Your doing the same thing he is doing but you can do it better.

-Other Crazy Stuff: May need to elaborate here ive never heard of this unit?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Yeah, the Tau Codex as a whole is certainly not OP. If I see Riptides, I go nopenopenope, sure. But if I see stealth suits or something, I don't really see them as big problem. And I play CSM, lol.

And I play SoB... the most neglected army left after the squats were squatted. I have no problems with Tau. Ofc, it could be because I have no special ponies they can shut down, and no choices of weapons that don't work perfectly against Tau. My longest-range gun is on a tank (Exorcist, 48'') and then there's Heavy Bolters (36'') that I never use. Everything else is 24 or 12 inches or flamers - Bolters, Bolt Pistols, Multimeltas, meltaguns, oh, and that's it. Transports are either Rhinos or Immolators (basically a SoB Razorback equivalent with TL Heavy Flamers or Multimeltas). Funny how I can use a suboptimal army to totally shut down the OP Tau.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Really? In what imaginary world are Tau not over powered? Its the same with the Dark Angels, the Necrons, the Eldar and the Space Marines. They just beat the seven bells of hell out of their opponents and stomp all over them.

Nothing imaginary about it, yes they are a strong army but nothing higher than upper mid tier at the moment especially when compared to the armies you just listed. As mentioned by several people the Tau only have a few units that are good and a lot of the Codex is useless. Maybe you can explain why you think Tau are overpowered instead of just saying they are would be a great help so I can better understand your reasoning.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

You obviously haven't been reading my posts. I always claim that Eldar are OP too. I'm referencing it in comparison to the other fair codexes.
Before you try making a counterpoint, please do some sort of research. You're taking everything out of proportion.
I only ever said I use dual Wraithknights to deal with Tau, just so I don't have to deal with the cheese. If I play against anyone, I use weakened lists or just don't use Eldar at all.

Please get help for your ignorance. It will help you in life.

You literally said that everything in the Tau codex is OP a couple pages ago so you can't get on peoples case about ignorance before you look at yourself. And the fact that you think a standard Tau Army is to me screams that you as a general may need to change some things up when playing against them, instead of bitching and moaning about it why not talk to Tau players to try to find good ways to counter them? And don't pull the whole nothing works bowl excuse because trust me I play in a very competitive environment and my Tau have the ability to lose just like every army.

I'm not going to take this post seriously if you're not able to think with intelligence.

Every army has a potential to lose. Of course they do.
You're missing my point, like many others.

Let me try and spell it out for you nice and slow...

Eldar are overpowered. Okay? Still with me?
Necrons are slightly OP. Not everything is for them though.
Daemons are OP.
Tau are overpowered. No doubt about it. Are you seeing what I'm trying to point out?

Stop trying to rush to your battlestations just because your saintly Tau are being talked about.
I'm starting to lose effort in this as people just spout out illogical arguments spurred by blind ignorance.
Take a step back from your device and reevaluate yourself before posting. It will help.

Yet another exalt Farseer.

Do you know that he actually had the gaul to call me inexperienced in the other thread? I have been playing this game for years and years, probably long before he got involved and he calls me inexperienced?
Oh, and he was also calling for yet more buffs to the Tau.
Some people....

I know. It's ridiculous. I've been playing since 2008, which is still a relatively long time.

And, the buffs... I can't believe that's even being called for. How utterly atrocious.

Also, I give you my exalts too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This will just keep going on and on with no end result. I'm thinking that this is now my leave.

I've proved my points completely. No need to continue on.
If you disagree with me, I respect your right to. But just stay out of my way. I've nothing else to prove.

Except your points were flawed.

The 48 S5 Ap5 shots you listed, hitting on 2's and wounding on 3's is dependant on three things - staying still, markerlights and rapid fire range.

Maelstrom solves the static gunline issue, since you can simply play to objectives.

Markerlights can be easily dealt with and should be the first things to go when fighting Tau.

Rapid Fire is a little more trickier to deal with, but you can remove the support elements (Ethereals, Cadre Fireblades) through Sniping/Precision Shots/Barrage and reduce the damage output. Pinning also helps since they are only leadership 7 and then snap shoot/can't fire overwatch.

96 S5 shots that hit on fours? I'll just repeat what I just said above, since you'll have the same answers. Also markerlights (which should have been gone) only work for one unit at a time, so that's not Tau being OP, thats exceptional dice rolling for Snap Shots. Cadre Fireblade also only works for the unit he's with and I'd be fine with that, as it means he's not taking Commanders which are hands down the best HQ in that Codex.

The Riptide, I'll give you, is OP, but it's still easily dealt with. Tarpit, AP2, ignoring are all fine strategies against it.

Unfortunately, while Markerlights "can be easily dealt with"--they aren't operating in a vacuum and Tau players aren't considerate enough to throw them out in the open.

Not every army has swathes of Ignore Cover weaponry.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Unfortunately, while Markerlights "can be easily dealt with"--they aren't operating in a vacuum and Tau players aren't considerate enough to throw them out in the open.

Not every army has swathes of Ignore Cover weaponry.

Something has to be exposed. And since Tau don't use Devilfish anymore, it's not a troop transport....

Correct you wouldn't put them out in the open and not every one has Ignore Cover.

But, every army has long range weaponry that can easily deal with them, or can get close enough quickly enough to remove them or at least reduce the amount of Markerlights you're facing. Think Drop Pods, TFC, FMCs, Artillery, Scatter Lasers...list goes on.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Correct you wouldn't put them out in the open and not every one has Ignore Cover.

But, every army has long range weaponry that can easily deal with them, or can get close enough quickly enough to remove them or at least reduce the amount of Markerlights you're facing. Think Drop Pods, TFC, FMCs, Artillery, Scatter Lasers...list goes on.

Do you really believe that?

Because it's not true. The most effective way for my Skitarii to remove Markerlight equipped units are Rangers/Vanguard with TAs(60" range Sniper, Armourbane) firing at them with an Omnispex in the unit.

That is 3 shots, tops, outside of Markerlight range that reliably will subtract a single point of cover.

Alternatively I can use Dunecrawlers or Ballistarii...but depending on the weapons used, that's like killing a unit of Fire Warriors with a Baneblade shot.

I might move back to Tau. Going to wait on the new CSM book to drop first, though i wont hold my breath for a berserker buff.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Correct you wouldn't put them out in the open and not every one has Ignore Cover.

But, every army has long range weaponry that can easily deal with them, or can get close enough quickly enough to remove them or at least reduce the amount of Markerlights you're facing. Think Drop Pods, TFC, FMCs, Artillery, Scatter Lasers...list goes on.

Do you really believe that?

Because it's not true. The most effective way for my Skitarii to remove Markerlight equipped units are Rangers/Vanguard with TAs(60" range Sniper, Armourbane) firing at them with an Omnispex in the unit.

That is 3 shots, tops, outside of Markerlight range that reliably will subtract a single point of cover.

Alternatively I can use Dunecrawlers or Ballistarii...but depending on the weapons used, that's like killing a unit of Fire Warriors with a Baneblade shot.

Or, you could use your Battle Brothers Blood Angels allies and stick them in Drop Pods, as has proven effective.

An army shouldn't have to use allies to be effective.

Tau and Ad Mech are a bad matchup because every single unit in the Skitarii dex dies to missile pods, which can be spammed to infinity with Tau.

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Correct you wouldn't put them out in the open and not every one has Ignore Cover.

But, every army has long range weaponry that can easily deal with them, or can get close enough quickly enough to remove them or at least reduce the amount of Markerlights you're facing. Think Drop Pods, TFC, FMCs, Artillery, Scatter Lasers...list goes on.

Do you really believe that?

Because it's not true. The most effective way for my Skitarii to remove Markerlight equipped units are Rangers/Vanguard with TAs(60" range Sniper, Armourbane) firing at them with an Omnispex in the unit.

That is 3 shots, tops, outside of Markerlight range that reliably will subtract a single point of cover.

Alternatively I can use Dunecrawlers or Ballistarii...but depending on the weapons used, that's like killing a unit of Fire Warriors with a Baneblade shot.

Or, you could use your Battle Brothers Blood Angels allies and stick them in Drop Pods, as has proven effective.

First of all, the list you're referring to isn't even Blood Angels. It's Flesh Tearers, and it's a formation from the Leviathan campaign books.

Second of all, no? It's my SKITARII army, not my SKITARII and FLESH TEARERS TAXI SERVICE army.

Quite frankly though--"You have X as Allies" isn't a valid response. It would be like me telling you "Play Farsight Enclaves instead of Tau Empire" to any complaint you might have about the Tau Empire book.

They still share the faction Blood Angels.

That said, I do agree that you shouldn't have to use allies to be an effective army. I would remove the allies matrix given the chance.

How well do Infiltrators work on the tabletop? 15 S4 with Infiltrate cause on average 2.7 wounds, assuming you shot at Pathfinders in ruins with Stealth up. Against Drones, you still killed 2.04 (done at BS5 with the Doctrine).
EDIT: Just seen the points for that, that's not cost efficient at all! Skitarii really do need something.

Also I don't have complaints about the Tau Codex, aside the Riptide, Broadsides and the Buffmander models. The thing I don't like most about them is the way they remove core elements of the game.

@Verveidi

Missile Pods are too cheap I will admit. Even my Tau friend admits that.

"FLESH TEARERS TAXI SERVICE"

This is now the #1 use for BA and it's frankly disgusting.

Martel732 wrote:
"FLESH TEARERS TAXI SERVICE"

This is now the #1 use for BA and it's frankly disgusting.

I agree. The detachment is supposed to enable people to take lots of Assault Marines, not fill the CAD with drop pods for one's allies.

Seriously though, Tau are not OP, at least compared to the newer codexes. Powerful, yes, but hardly overpowered or broken. If anything is needed for the Tau codex, it's a redesign not a nerf.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"FLESH TEARERS TAXI SERVICE"

This is now the #1 use for BA and it's frankly disgusting.

I agree. The detachment is supposed to enable people to take lots of Assault Marines, not fill the CAD with drop pods for one's allies.

Seriously though, Tau are not OP, at least compared to the newer codexes. Powerful, yes, but hardly overpowered or broken. If anything is needed for the Tau codex, it's a redesign not a nerf.

As I have said multiple times, the Riptide is the most outrageous thing in the list. S7 spam is strong, yes, but those units can be neutralized reasonably.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Really? In what imaginary world are Tau not over powered? Its the same with the Dark Angels, the Necrons, the Eldar and the Space Marines. They just beat the seven bells of hell out of their opponents and stomp all over them.

Nothing imaginary about it, yes they are a strong army but nothing higher than upper mid tier at the moment especially when compared to the armies you just listed. As mentioned by several people the Tau only have a few units that are good and a lot of the Codex is useless. Maybe you can explain why you think Tau are overpowered instead of just saying they are would be a great help so I can better understand your reasoning.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

You obviously haven't been reading my posts. I always claim that Eldar are OP too. I'm referencing it in comparison to the other fair codexes.
Before you try making a counterpoint, please do some sort of research. You're taking everything out of proportion.
I only ever said I use dual Wraithknights to deal with Tau, just so I don't have to deal with the cheese. If I play against anyone, I use weakened lists or just don't use Eldar at all.

Please get help for your ignorance. It will help you in life.

You literally said that everything in the Tau codex is OP a couple pages ago so you can't get on peoples case about ignorance before you look at yourself. And the fact that you think a standard Tau Army is to me screams that you as a general may need to change some things up when playing against them, instead of bitching and moaning about it why not talk to Tau players to try to find good ways to counter them? And don't pull the whole nothing works bowl excuse because trust me I play in a very competitive environment and my Tau have the ability to lose just like every army.

I'm not going to take this post seriously if you're not able to think with intelligence.

Every army has a potential to lose. Of course they do.
You're missing my point, like many others.

Let me try and spell it out for you nice and slow...

Eldar are overpowered. Okay? Still with me?
Necrons are slightly OP. Not everything is for them though.
Daemons are OP.
Tau are overpowered. No doubt about it. Are you seeing what I'm trying to point out?

Stop trying to rush to your battlestations just because your saintly Tau are being talked about.
I'm starting to lose effort in this as people just spout out illogical arguments spurred by blind ignorance.
Take a step back from your device and reevaluate yourself before posting. It will help.

Yet another exalt Farseer.

Do you know that he actually had the gaul to call me inexperienced in the other thread? I have been playing this game for years and years, probably long before he got involved and he calls me inexperienced?
Oh, and he was also calling for yet more buffs to the Tau.
Some people....

I know. It's ridiculous. I've been playing since 2008, which is still a relatively long time.

And, the buffs... I can't believe that's even being called for. How utterly atrocious.

Also, I give you my exalts too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This will just keep going on and on with no end result. I'm thinking that this is now my leave.

I've proved my points completely. No need to continue on.
If you disagree with me, I respect your right to. But just stay out of my way. I've nothing else to prove.

Thank you for kindly leaving the thread.

To me, Tau are not so much OP as they are boring and eliminate certain tactical aspects from the game.

It's not because they have a gunline. I've played gunlines while having just as much fun as playing an army entirely focussed on CC. However, Tau have 2 things that, when combined, take out a large chunk of tactical gameplay.

First of all, the elephant in the room, markerlights. People tell you to 'just kill the markerlights', while in reality, that's not as simple as people make it out to be.
First of all, they've got long range, so you they can be held back rather easily, and they'r'e VERY cheap. So this means I will need long range guns in order to deal with them if I want to do it sooner rather than later. Now, most guns that can reach Pathfinders easily, at least in the armies I collect, are also the stronger guns. However, the thing is that these guns don't a particularly high chance at killing the pathfinders, because they get a 4+ cover save.

If I want to get rid of around 130 points of pathfinders that are split into 2 units, I'll probably need around 7 to 10 times that points value in firepower. Good... job done, markerlights gone, now I win right? Except there's still 1720 points of Tau left on the field. In the time it took me to get rid of those markerlights, 130 points of Hammerhead just deleted 200 points of vehicle in a single shot because he got 2 markerlights in before I was able to remove every markerlight in the game. On the other side of the table, half a squad disappears to a single Riptide because again I didn't remove every single markerlight in a single turn. Meanwhile, in the middle, I lost another squad because I didn't remove every single markerlight on the board before the missilesides took a shot. I have armies (Skitarii for example) that almost rely solely on cover saves, not because I built my list that way, but because the army is just designed that way. Let me tell you, those games are some of the shittiest I've ever played.

That brings me to the second thing that makes Tau boring. You know what I find exciting about building an army? Having to make sure I balance out my squads/equipment so that I'm able to deal with stuff. If I bring nothing but heavy bolters, I will run into a big F'ing problem when there's a Ghost Ark on the table. On the other hand, if I bring nothing but Lascannons, I'm probably fethed if a green tide shows up.
You know what's the polar opposite of this (and thus, completely, utterly boring to me)? Having a single gun that A) can deal with just about anything and B) I can give to just about any model worth its points.

If you do like that however, boy have I got the army for you. Unless you're playing against guard Russ spam, the only thing you really need is missiles, doesn't matter where, Drones, suits or broadsides.
People say Riptides "really aren't that good", but that's only because they're comparing it to the missileside unit that's next to it.

Plz please please let me fight that Tau army.

I have an IG panzer battallion and this as an ally:

Black Templars:

-Chaplain [90 pts]
-Crusaders w/Grav-Pistol, Grav-Gun, Grav-Cannon, Drop Pod [170 pts]
-Crusaders w/Grav-Pistol, Grav-Gun, Grav-Cannon, Drop Pod [170 pts]
-Drop Pod [35 pts]
[Allied Total: 465 pts]

Ima feth some gak right up on T1.

 Verviedi wrote:
Tau and Ad Mech are a bad matchup because every single unit in the Skitarii dex dies to missile pods, which can be spammed to infinity with Tau.

Ad Mech is not a bad matchup at all, especially thanks to 30 inch Heavy Grav Cannon spam basically neutering all the scary stuff in our Codex. And again I find it amusing so many people think its an insult to bring in allies, its a strength!

DaPino wrote:
If I want to get rid of around 130 points of pathfinders that are split into 2 units, I'll probably need around 7 to 10 times that points value in firepower.

How do you figure that? 2 units of 6 with not subpar leadership. 2 wounds to force a leadership check or you could attempt to pin. There are loads of options available. Are thunderfire cannons still a thing?

130 points of Hammerhead just deleted 200 points of vehicle in a single shot because he got 2 markerlights in before I was able to remove every markerlight in the game.

Extremely good luck considering a BS4 hammerhead ignoring cover has a very remote chance of exploding a vehicle in a single shot. However I think you may just be exaggerating to prove some point.
Which appears the entire paragraph is a situation where everything always goes bad for you, and your opponent has markers from 8 different full strength sources that always hit all the time.

You know what I find exciting about building an army? Having to make sure I balance out my squads/equipment so that I'm able to deal with stuff. If I bring nothing but heavy bolters, I will run into a big F'ing problem when there's a Ghost Ark on the table. On the other hand, if I bring nothing but Lascannons, I'm probably ****ed if a green tide shows up.
You know what's the polar opposite of this (and thus, completely, utterly boring to me)? Having a single gun that A) can deal with just about anything and B) I can give to just about any model worth its points.

You mean like a grav gun? Those are pretty versatile. Thunderfire cannons? Is this another IA exclusive problem?

The thing about Tau is that they are extremely good at one thing (shooting) and completely innept at close combat and psychic powers. It makes them frustrating because they generally win in a shootout but will die horribly in close combat. There is almost no situation in which Tau would need to charge to neutralize a shooting threat which results in them playing the move and shoot game (or jump shoot jump) to keep a distance from the enemy. Most matchups boil down to Tau outshoots the enemy while the enemy attempts to close the gap and get into close combat to lock down multiple tau units and rip them apart. If Tau can gun down enough of the enemy then they can dominate the board and deter any assaults with their network of supporting fire. If the enemy can avoid enough casualties then it can get in close to mow through the rather squishy Tau infantry.

The problem with Tau is how they are designed to be extreme in their strengths and weaknesses and it creates some fairly binary results. Going 2nd vs Tau is often game losing vs a standard "start you guys on the table" deployment as you end up taking a ton of shooting to the face before you can do anything. In terms of their power they are strong but not nearly to the level of OP that was 6th edtion Taudar. Tau are absolutely horrible in CC still but their shooting isn't unmatched anymore and they still suffer from being rather fragile, especially their markerlight sources.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

How do you figure that? 2 units of 6 with not subpar leadership. 2 wounds to force a leadership check or you could attempt to pin. There are loads of options available. Are thunderfire cannons still a thing?

Thanks for reminding me, I'm ashamed of admitting I forgot that, because that's practically how I dealt with pathfinders last time I faced them.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Extremely good luck considering a BS4 hammerhead ignoring cover has a very remote chance of exploding a vehicle in a single shot. However I think you may just be exaggerating to prove some point.
Which appears the entire paragraph is a situation where everything always goes bad for you, and your opponent has markers from 8 different full strength sources that always hit all the time.

It is indeed an exaggeration, it doesn't happen every game but it does happen quite often.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

You mean like a grav gun? Those are pretty versatile. Thunderfire cannons? Is this another IA exclusive problem?

First of all, just because some other things are equally bad, doesn't mean that they're not bad.
That said, no I do not think grav guns are versatile in all situations as missile pods. Ever tried killing Orcs/nid swarm/skitarii with grav guns? Just to give a couple of examples.

Nor are Thunderfire cannons for that matter. Don't get me wrong, it's pretty versatile and definately a strong unit, but in a different manner. It's good against infantry blobs, but it's obviously less powerfull against anything else.
It's got less strength, less AP and against vehicles and MC's it can do 4 hits at most.

We're talking about missile pods? Missile pods are versatile, but not the most versatile weapon. Necrons have Gauss, Eldar have scatter lasers, IoM has autocannons and assault cannons.

They aren't even that easy to get a volume of missile pds on the field.

That's actually wrong. Spamming it is easy.

But it's not any better than grav at killing hordes, simple issue of shot count.

DaPino your exaggerations are so bad are absurd as a hammerhead taking out even a chimera is not a 25%, even at BS5 ignore cover. So losing big tanks frequently is funny.
Also having at least 3 of your units marked to oblivion after you took out two marker units suggest abnormal marker count, therefor little guns.
That or made up. Nonsense.

Single shot anti-tank weapons in this game are terrible. Which is the exact opposite of reality.

Somewhat late to the party, but here are my thoughts:

1) No, Tau don't have psychic powers. But, nor do several other armies and they don't get anything resembling markerlights.

2) No, Tau don't have any (good) assault units. But, if you have extra shooting to compensate for this... why do you need assault? It's a bit like a fighter in D&D focussing entirely on bows. Yeah, he's not great in melee... but the point is that he doesn't need to be. That's the whole point of being really good with a bow.

3) Back to markerlights for a minute, it should really take 1 markerlight to remove 1pt of cover (not 2 to remove it all). But then, I also think this game could do with fewer Ignores Cover weapons (make them modifiers instead), and fewer stacking cover saves.

4) I think Tau are possibly OP against some of the 6th edition (not that there are many left now) and early 7th edition books, but not against the 7.5 books.

EDIT: Actually, 'OP' is probably the wrong term here. 'Hard-counter' might be closer to the mark.

5) Another factor though is that Tau are the sort of army that *feels* OP, regardless of whether it actually is.
- Being shot by basic troops with S5 guns from the other side of the table *feels* OP.
- Having your cover save removed by 2 laser pointers *feels* OP - especially if you're an army like DE, which has sod-all else to protect it.
- Being overwatched by not just your target but everything near your target (often at higher BS) *feels* OP.
- Enemies that can shoot you, then jump behind LoS-blocking terrain *feels* OP.
- A MC with a 2+/5+ and FNP that can shoot a S8 AP2 Ignores Cover pie-plate *feels* OP.

My point is that a lot of things can certainly feel/appear OP, regardless of whether they actually are or not.

5) Somewhat related to the above, I think Tau is rarely fun to play against (which doesn't help people's perception of it). It's the sort of army that doesn't appear to be participating in much of the game (not to mention ignoring a number of rules), and just has a lot of un-fun mechanics - with JSJ being a particular bugbear in this regard.

 BoomWolf wrote:
That's actually wrong. Spamming it is easy.

I should have specified there are only a few units that actually get them. That and it isn't really anything new. Though thanks to the better wording of the 6th codex we can get double the shots per suit.

I have to ask this, but does anyone actually know why taudar was considered broken cheese in 6th? I had it carefully explained to me elsewhere, I'm just wondering after going through this thread. I'll post the answer I was given in a bit or I'll quote the answer if someone else has it.

beyond that, for everyone who hates facing Tau, what do your opponents usually bring as allies or fortifications? Keep in mind, I'm a FSE player, and I might consider copying them. Personally, I have an Aegis that I bring to games as well as one of each assassin, and 2 Culexii.

Martel732 wrote:
Single shot anti-tank weapons in this game are terrible. Which is the exact opposite of reality.

Well, it's because this game uses... dubious mechanics.

Your to-hit roll is only ever based on BS. You get no bonus for being stationary, you get no bonus for your target being stationary, tanks apparently contain no targeting systems whatsoever, there's no accounting for the size of your target - or even its distance. A stationary land raider 5ft away is exactly as hard to hit as a single jetbike, zooming around on the other side of the board.

And then there's the vehicle damage table, which is basically a 'screw you' to single-shot weapons.

 vipoid wrote:

And then there's the vehicle damage table, which is basically a 'screw you' to single-shot weapons.

Agreed. It sucks my Particle Whip can't even splode a tank no more.

 carldooley wrote:
I have to ask this, but does anyone actually know why taudar was considered broken cheese in 6th? I had it carefully explained to me elsewhere, I'm just wondering after going through this thread. I'll post the answer I was given in a bit or I'll quote the answer if someone else has it.

It was a decent mix of mobility and firepower. You got a cheap jetseer to throw in with an expensive unit that needed psychic protection or to buff and got to take a unit of jetbikes or two to keep in reserves and drop on objectives late in game.

Farseers could easily get two psychic powers that let two units re-roll misses, which works great for two Riptides that you had close by. Some other fun tricks that I'm sure more will elaborate on.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
I have to ask this, but does anyone actually know why taudar was considered broken cheese in 6th? I had it carefully explained to me elsewhere, I'm just wondering after going through this thread. I'll post the answer I was given in a bit or I'll quote the answer if someone else has it.

It was a decent mix of mobility and firepower. You got a cheap jetseer to throw in with an expensive unit that needed psychic protection or to buff and got to take a unit of jetbikes or two to keep in reserves and drop on objectives late in game.

Farseers could easily get two psychic powers that let two units re-roll misses, which works great for two Riptides that you had close by. Some other fun tricks that I'm sure more will elaborate on.

it was actually that. A farseer with guide cost a fraction of what a supporting unit would cost, whether that unit consisted of a buffmander and\or markerlights. We can still get similar effects, but they cost a boatload more points. Personally, I only take a riptide if I can properly support it, which roughly breaks down to 1 riptide per 600 points of my army. Plus in 6th, buffmanders could join MCs, which would allow what was called O'Vesa star, something that was fixed in 7th.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

And then there's the vehicle damage table, which is basically a 'screw you' to single-shot weapons.

Agreed. It sucks my Particle Whip can't even splode a tank no more.

Try Dark Eldar.

Which is your favourite DE anti-tank weapon?

The expensive, single-shot weapon, or the other expensive, single-shot weapon?

 vipoid wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

And then there's the vehicle damage table, which is basically a 'screw you' to single-shot weapons.

Agreed. It sucks my Particle Whip can't even splode a tank no more.

Try Dark Eldar.

Which is your favourite DE anti-tank weapon?

The expensive, single-shot weapon, or the other expensive, single-shot weapon?

Hmm, yes. I see your point.

At least you don't have to rely on 6s whenever you do hit. >.>

 carldooley wrote:
Personally, I only take a riptide if I can properly support it, which roughly breaks down to 1 riptide per 600 points of my army. Plus in 6th, buffmanders could join MCs, which would allow what was called O'Vesa star, something that was fixed in 7th.

I dropped out shortly into 7th after the maelstrom games proved to be too random and too big of a hassle.
But I did enjoy running a buffmander and a FSE commander in a full suit squad. Various loadouts and target locks had one unit that was very versatile at providing support. 6 markerdrones for use with my FSE HBC Riptide.
ECPA and BS5 made it so fun enough to be a sin. Good times I had with those units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait, are DE and Necrons complaining about anti-tank?
Don't Necrons have troop weapons that can glance anything?
Don't DE have dark lances by the dozen?

 krodarklorr wrote:

Hmm, yes. I see your point.

At least you don't have to rely on 6s whenever you do hit. >.>

Well, technically I do - as I play Necrons too.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Don't DE have dark lances by the dozen?

Not really, no.

Also, let's say we do have a dozen of them. Thats, what? ~500pts minimum (and 4 HS slots) to kill a single 65pt chimera out of cover. Yeah, can't imagine why DE players might feel a bit short-changed in the anti-vehicle department.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait, are DE and Necrons complaining about anti-tank?
Don't Necrons have troop weapons that can glance anything?
Don't DE have dark lances by the dozen?

No, Necrons are not complaining. Dark Eldar are, as they have every right to.

Dark Eldar have always been Game Workshop's whipping boys though... and not in the way the Dark Eldar enjoy.

 vipoid wrote:

Not really, no.

Also, let's say we do have a dozen of them. Thats, what? ~500pts minimum (and 4 HS slots) to kill a single 65pt chimera out of cover. Yeah, can't imagine why DE players might feel a bit short-changed in the anti-vehicle department.

Should have worded that better. I've known 2 DE players, one move away before 6th and the second doesn't really use DE that much. I was unaware of your AT status currently. I thought they had better access to lance weapons than that.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Should have worded that better. I've known 2 DE players, one move away before 6th and the second doesn't really use DE that much. I was unaware of your AT status currently. I thought they had better access to lance weapons than that.

No worries.

In any casel, it's not just access to dark lances - it's the fact that Dark Lances/Blasters just aren't good in this edition. Because AP2 is really unreliable at exploding vehicles, they've basically been reduced to stripping hull-points - which is incredibly inefficient for expensive, single-shot weapons.

The other aspect is that - especially with jink - there are a lot more cover saves these days. But, DE have no anti-tank weapons that ignore cover (nor any way to hand out ignores cover). So, we're often in a position where an enemy can ignore our jink/cover save (basically our only defence), but we can't do anything about their cover save.


But, I think we've gone ever so slightly off topic.

DE are in a really bad shape...for odd reasons.


They got all the tools per see, they are FAST, they got an answer to everything (MC with low armor? kabalite gunship! tanks? scourge haywire guns, etc, etc) and nothing (except witches) is too overpriced.

On paper they look amazing.

But the HQs are practically a tax, and many units require HQ support to truly function.
Add the fact their glass hammer nature makes them mostly want to come from reserves, without any ability to hit the board T1 on deepstrike, and they are relegated to a beta-strike, without the actual ability to endure an alpha-strike, nor any means to assure enough turns up on turn 2.

Then you realize all special-weapon duty (and you gonna need ALOT) actually falls on scourges if you want them in a meaningful, mobile platform, who are not that hard to remove-and you cant afford to have nothing BUT scourges.
All the good assaulty units are in elites-for example witches are nice, but mandrakes are far better at getting close, for marginal cost increase. but how many can you get?

To add insult to injury, they have a "hit first, hit alot" CC statline, with no 2+ armor, nor 2+ weapons. so they rely on rending and forcing saves, niether they got widely available.


So, they have all the right tools, in all the wrong places.

 BoomWolf wrote:
That's actually wrong. Spamming it is easy.

But it's not any better than grav at killing hordes, simple issue of shot count.

DaPino your exaggerations are so bad are absurd as a hammerhead taking out even a chimera is not a 25%, even at BS5 ignore cover. So losing big tanks frequently is funny.
Also having at least 3 of your units marked to oblivion after you took out two marker units suggest abnormal marker count, therefor little guns.
That or made up. Nonsense.

I explicitly said that it WAS an exaggeration, I refer you to my follow-up post where I said that all of those things might not happen at once, but one of them does rather frequently.

The thing is, you're right. A BS5, cover-ignoring hammerhead has abut 23% chance to outright kill an AV11 target and about 18% if the target is AV12, that doesn't look very impressive. But let's look at some other units. Tri-las pred has a 8% chance to explode AV11 and 6% chance against AV12 (assuming the targets are in cover). Same for 3 obliterators using Lascannons. Lascannon havocs 11% and 8% respectively.
Even if you double all those perentages (target without cover), the only thing comming close to the hammerhead is the havocs. So hammerheads do have a significantly increased chance at instantaneously blowing something up.

And I want to stress this again, I don't think Tau are OP, I think they are boring. Against just about any other army, I can mitigate these risks of getting blown up turn one simply by using my brain a bit and deploying so I get cover saves for the right units, against the right units. There are far better tank hunters around but, at least most of the time, I can either 1) stay away or if that's not possible 2) get a save against them. Almost impossible against Tau, which doesn't mean Tau are better at tank hunting, but it makes the game more boring because the tactical aspect of deployment and movement becomes smaller.

Terrain, normally, can both be advantageous or disadvantageous, depending on the situation. It's up to both players to figure out which of those holds true when they're taking a turn.
Unless, of course, Tau are involved. Then terrain becomes nothing but a bother you have to churn through, something that slows you down. It feels like the entire board is part of the Tau's army list because it's only there to help him keep your units away.

 BoomWolf wrote:
DE are in a really bad shape...for odd reasons.


They got all the tools per see, they are FAST, they got an answer to everything (MC with low armor? kabalite gunship! tanks? scourge haywire guns, etc, etc) and nothing (except witches) is too overpriced.

On paper they look amazing.

But the HQs are practically a tax, and many units require HQ support to truly function.
Add the fact their glass hammer nature makes them mostly want to come from reserves, without any ability to hit the board T1 on deepstrike, and they are relegated to a beta-strike, without the actual ability to endure an alpha-strike, nor any means to assure enough turns up on turn 2.

Then you realize all special-weapon duty (and you gonna need ALOT) actually falls on scourges if you want them in a meaningful, mobile platform, who are not that hard to remove-and you cant afford to have nothing BUT scourges.
All the good assaulty units are in elites-for example witches are nice, but mandrakes are far better at getting close, for marginal cost increase. but how many can you get?

To add insult to injury, they have a "hit first, hit alot" CC statline, with no 2+ armor, nor 2+ weapons. so they rely on rending and forcing saves, niether they got widely available.


So, they have all the right tools, in all the wrong places.

Night sheilds + nightfight = beta strike is basically an alpha strike unless the enemy has insane ignore cover.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
DE are in a really bad shape...for odd reasons.


They got all the tools per see, they are FAST, they got an answer to everything (MC with low armor? kabalite gunship! tanks? scourge haywire guns, etc, etc) and nothing (except witches) is too overpriced.

On paper they look amazing.

But the HQs are practically a tax, and many units require HQ support to truly function.
Add the fact their glass hammer nature makes them mostly want to come from reserves, without any ability to hit the board T1 on deepstrike, and they are relegated to a beta-strike, without the actual ability to endure an alpha-strike, nor any means to assure enough turns up on turn 2.

Then you realize all special-weapon duty (and you gonna need ALOT) actually falls on scourges if you want them in a meaningful, mobile platform, who are not that hard to remove-and you cant afford to have nothing BUT scourges.
All the good assaulty units are in elites-for example witches are nice, but mandrakes are far better at getting close, for marginal cost increase. but how many can you get?

To add insult to injury, they have a "hit first, hit alot" CC statline, with no 2+ armor, nor 2+ weapons. so they rely on rending and forcing saves, niether they got widely available.


So, they have all the right tools, in all the wrong places.

Night sheilds + nightfight = beta strike is basically an alpha strike unless the enemy has insane ignore cover.

Night shields + night fighting + deep striking raiders and venoms, I think clearly the way DE were designed to work.

Tau have some poorly implemented mechanics, which isn't the same thing as being overpowered. It isn't really worth trying to argue whether a book is overpowered or not because what history actually shows is that editions tend to elevate a codex to overpowered or underpowered moreso than any inherent units or mechanics in the codex itself. Eldar were monsters in 4th and irrelevant in 5th. IG and Grey Knights went from kings of the meta in 5th edition to crap in 6th. Tau were a dominant faction in 6th but struggle to reach the top of the leaderboard in 7th whereas Marines went from solidly average in 5th and 6th to a powerhouse in 7th. Tyranids have placed in the top 5 of almost every GT since 7th hit.

So I wouldn't say that Tau are overpowered so much as the vagaries of 6th edition favored their play-style immensely, whereas the mechanics of 7th don't.

Buuuut despite that, the Tau still have game mechanics that are boring at best and downright hostile to the spirit of the game at worst. Markerlights are one big issue, and their complete disregard for three out of the four phases in the game for most of the match is the other. Straight nerfs to all their best stuff isn't going to fix that though- they need buffs and tweaks to their underperforming units and abilities as well, to encourage a healthy variety of competitive builds and strategies.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Night sheilds + nightfight = beta strike is basically an alpha strike unless the enemy has insane ignore cover.

Yeah, our beta strike is just terrifying with all of our weapons hitting on 6s.

Also, you know Night Shields and Night Fighting don't stack, right?

I don't think Tau are OP. I think Ignores cover is OP.

... and Tau have the ability to have it everywhere. Now I know that shooting is the Tau thing, and I understand the investment in markerlights is an expensive one, but let's be honest... Having Ignores cover on practically everything is a bit crazy.

To me... It's getting ignores cover from other resources that makes it a little silly. Just popping a batman commander into some crisis suits makes them OP. Whine-worthy OP? nah... but still OP.

I am an Eldar player and to me... the OP wave serpent issue, was the ease of getting STR 7 ignores cover shots in multiples.

I know when I face a Tau list... at least the ones in my local meta... it always has an abundance of just that... STR 7 ignores cover.... often with Tank Hunter and/or monster hunter. With str 5 ignores cover (and LOS) backing it up.

I always bust my good friend who plays Tau by telling him, the new Eldar Codex made Tau OP. lol Obviously it's a joke, but my point is that Tau now have the most amount of Ignores Cover, and LOS ignoring weapons. They are still in a very good spot.

Again, I have no issue with Tau, I have an issue with Ignores cover being that prevalent in ANY army.

I read the majority of the thread. Personally I think Tau are very strong but not on a level with Necrons and SMs and NO WHERE NEAR Eldar levels!
All of those dexes have the ability to outshoot and also assault Tau if they decide to bring the fight close. Necrons can outshoot them due to their durability, SMs can outshoot them due to incredible amounts of free firepower they can bring, drop podding relentless grav-devs, cent stars etc, and Eldar are... well... Eldar.
I have always been able to outshoot Tau as Renegades too, every time! And still have the points for Spawn (and maybe Giant Spawn) to swat any suits that come close and capture objectives with beast speed. Point for point Renegades bring FAR more firepower to the table then Tau. I have been incredibly surprised that I have never seen renegades described as OP on Dakka. They are so powerful outside of the recent Asterix Magic potion dexes. I'd put my neck out to say the most powerful after the post BA dexes. Far more powerful than Tau in every way.

If the Tau get the Eldar treatment though, I will be furious. They need a buff of their weaker units and maybe a decurion list to be top tier again, but if Riptides get GMC for minute pts increase and D is given out like candy, as well as other strong units being made stronger, it'll just be as stupidly broken as the new Eldar dex.

DaPino wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
That's actually wrong. Spamming it is easy.

But it's not any better than grav at killing hordes, simple issue of shot count.

DaPino your exaggerations are so bad are absurd as a hammerhead taking out even a chimera is not a 25%, even at BS5 ignore cover. So losing big tanks frequently is funny.
Also having at least 3 of your units marked to oblivion after you took out two marker units suggest abnormal marker count, therefor little guns.
That or made up. Nonsense.

I explicitly said that it WAS an exaggeration, I refer you to my follow-up post where I said that all of those things might not happen at once, but one of them does rather frequently.

The thing is, you're right. A BS5, cover-ignoring hammerhead has abut 23% chance to outright kill an AV11 target and about 18% if the target is AV12, that doesn't look very impressive. But let's look at some other units. Tri-las pred has a 8% chance to explode AV11 and 6% chance against AV12 (assuming the targets are in cover). Same for 3 obliterators using Lascannons. Lascannon havocs 11% and 8% respectively.
Even if you double all those perentages (target without cover), the only thing comming close to the hammerhead is the havocs. So hammerheads do have a significantly increased chance at instantaneously blowing something up.

Yes, you said its an exaggeration, but its SO far off reality it makes you look like a fool, rather than like someone trying to make a point. exaggerations need to be somewhat rooted in reality.

Also, you are ignoring the fact that other than the hammerhead, all of them can also get a kill via hullpoint damage-if not alone then in work with a second unit, something a hammerhead is simply incapable of-a bare minimum of 3 is neede for a CHANCE to hullpoint a chimera. and its the most practical method to kill tanks in this day and age.

And you used units who are wildly accepted as subpar for your comparison to boot, good job. (oblits are not subpar in general, but they should only lascanon an MC, not a tank. you got MM for that.) and even there you got the numbers absurdly wrong.

Just for fun, I ran lascanon havocs (so 4 BS4 lascanons), and made them consider cover 5+ against an AV12 target. 8% for hullpoint death alone, on top of 14% to score an explosion. an unsupported hammerhead on the other hand has 9% to score an explosion, despite costing not much less. sure, at BS5 ignore cover its a "great" 23% (we'll get there), but at natural stats? mere 9%. a chimera.

So, 155 points of havocs got 14% to explode and 8% to wreck, without being willing to calculate the overlap we'll assume a generous of half wrecks explode as well, so its a 18% kill chance. the hammerhead when natural has HALF the chance, for 125 points. a simple ranking system made of "killchance/price" gives havocs a score of 0.116129, hammerhead gets 0.072. havoc efficency ranking is 62% above the hammerhead.
LASCANON HAVOCS. hardly the stuff of legends.

Looking at the buffed hammerhead, just to drive the point in. the buffed hammerhead (ignore cover, BS5) will cost you at the mot efficient method, ignoring all the strings attached a total of 191 minimum for netting it as the average result.
It will explode 18% of the time (wait what? not the 23 you claimed? shocker.)
Then we put it in the ranking system and it gets 0.09424, still 19% in ranking under the havocs.

So even the big bad buffed hammerhead, under the most optimal of conditions, is actually not any better than simple lascanon havocs when it comes to killing a chimera. while not wanting to run the numbers, I'm willing to bet the others are not faring much worse either, despite not fitting for a direct comparison (oblits got an aresnal of choices, including DS with MM, hardly fair. trilas is wildly considered bad anyway, etc...), and lets not forget that lascanon havoks will do more damage to ANYTHING with a T value other than T5 units with at least 5 wounds, or 3 wounds and FnP (you can calculated it if you want)

So unless you are going to claim lascanon havocs are OP, you better drop the act about hammerheads being a serious threat to tanks, or that they in any way "allow no reaction", I just proved to you that a reaction is not even needed-they can't get the job done anyway.

The only way hammerheads constantly take out your tanks T1, is if you are showing them the rear.

DaPino wrote:
And I want to stress this again, I don't think Tau are OP, I think they are boring. Against just about any other army, I can mitigate these risks of getting blown up turn one simply by using my brain a bit and deploying so I get cover saves for the right units, against the right units. There are far better tank hunters around but, at least most of the time, I can either 1) stay away or if that's not possible 2) get a save against them. Almost impossible against Tau, which doesn't mean Tau are better at tank hunting, but it makes the game more boring because the tactical aspect of deployment and movement becomes smaller.

Terrain, normally, can both be advantageous or disadvantageous, depending on the situation. It's up to both players to figure out which of those holds true when they're taking a turn.
Unless, of course, Tau are involved. Then terrain becomes nothing but a bother you have to churn through, something that slows you down. It feels like the entire board is part of the Tau's army list because it's only there to help him keep your units away.

If you think there are no tactics involved when playing against tau I have to assume you are a bad player.
The fact you claim that terrain becomes nothing but a bother is the most obvious alarm bell. against "classic" tau gunline types you want with nearly every army to have as much terrain as possible-its practically a rule of thumb against tau to make sure the table isn't empty.
Even if you won't get cover saves, every 2 markers used to ignore cover are 2 not used to increase BS. you just need to learn how to USE the terrain, rather than be bothered by it.
Against "enclaves" it becomes a double-edged sword, but given that its an army centered around mobility and trickery, I doubt you actually think THAT variation has no tactics involved.

Most of my wins derive directly from my opponents deploying wrong, making the wrong moves, prioritizing the wrong targets and not utilizing the full scope of the abilities of their armies. even simple things are choosing to combat squad wrong (against tau? 100% of the time you do. we find 2 five man squads much harder to remove than a single 10 man squad.), "feeding" me units into the meatgrinder (no, it dosent matter how tough is your unit, if its alone-I'll crack it, you have to dispaly multiple threats), don't take advantage of LOS blocking (markerlights don't help if I got no line of sight with either the marker, OR the shooter, you got 2 block chances-tau got no practical indirect fire.), and generally failing even simple tactics such as not thinking of the fact even a "shooty" unit is going to have an edge on me in CC and not assaulting ("why should I assault? this unit is better at shooting!", yes. but mine is an even better shot, but worse at assault. you go from being a 7 to being a 4, but take my guns from 8 to 3. its your edge.), and even going as foolish as ignoring my markerlights and going for the "real threats". ("it can't kill anything anyway.")

The point is, they are using the same tactics that work against your every day space marines against my tau, and that's simply not working, as tau play differently. our support units carry the "threats", not the other way around, we can shoot to oblivion, but have to focus fire, we consider a "nearly-dead" unit as a still legitimize threat in CC (that 1 assault marine survivor flying around can still disable an entire unit in CC if not dealt with) and we can little for deathstars-we find MSU far harder to deal with.
Your washed-up anti-everything tactics just don't work, so you think there are no tactics. in reality, you are just using all the wrong ones.

My losses on the other hand are mostly against players who figure out how differently they need to act, how to force my hand and how to counter my own tactics. they don't get it right every time-but WHO does it right is consistent. some players can give me a hard game/defeat with every army, others cant do it with any army. I can usually tell if I am going to have an easy game or an uphill battle before even the game starts, there is just that vibe that comes off from serious tacticians that you can simply tell are not going to fall for cheap tricks or repeating builds. some who I have to bring a different list with different MOs against them every time I play, otherwise they will figure me out, find my weaknesses and beat me-sometimes the shuffle isn't enough as they manage to anticipate it in advance.


Seriously, I can make a whole shopping list of the LIKELY tactical mistakes people are making then claiming "tau has no tactics". the same errors repeat with most of them.







Now, I'm going to risk sounding extremely rude and border on the inappropriate, but please don't make any more comments on the subject of tau being OP, boring, uncreative, offer no counterplay or whatnot unless you properly study the subject first to make sure the things you type are anchored with reality.
Its exhausting when I need to take off my precious time to defend empirical truths about my army by math, because otherwise notions like the one you are promoting that tau are somehow a problem are taught to the unknowing who takes them for granted despite not having any solid information, and they later ruin my gaming fun when I face baseless hate.
I do NOT enjoy repeating need to be proving that everything and anything tau haters say is outright wrong in a mathematical sense any more then I enjoy homework. its tedious. its almost like trying to unconvert a cult.
Its not fun for me, and I'm sure it not fun for you to get scolded. but you will get it as long as you keep spewing nonsense as you have done in this thread so far.
Hopefully you are among the people who will actually bother to read, learn and improve themselves, and many I have encountered in this forum keep returning to the same mistakes no matter how many times I prove them wrong. please don't be one of those people.



That being said, I have already ran the math of practically every tau unit in the past, proving them to be equal or inferior to the very same units that the haters try to compare them to (unsuccessfully), the TWO exceptions are the IA, and the broadside's HYMP, the very same things every reasonable tau player will have no problem admitting are just too good.
Unfortunately they are also the crutches the tau codex stands on. other then them, few tau units are actually worth it. even on the same units-the other guns are simply bad compared to anything.
People say the tau codex is bland, well. that's a given. its a very SMALL codex (despite supposedly representing a whole federation of races)
Beyond the two troublemakers the -good- units in the tau codex settle in crisis suits(and commander), ethreals, fire warriors and pathfinders, with skyrays and longstrike being "decent enough, and mandatory due to lack of alternative". with such a small pool to work with, there is hardly a reason to wonder tau armies repeat themselves.
We got not nearly the same amount of raw materials to work with as the likes of eldar or marines, even without counting allied mixing they got more options that are good then our entire codex, good and bad combined.
You want tau to be less repetitive? the first step it to make the entire rest of the codex not as mind-numbing irrelevant. and expand upon it. there is infinite room to expand, just add more alien races.

Poly Ranger wrote:
I
I have always been able to outshoot Tau as Renegades too, every time! And still have the points for Spawn (and maybe Giant Spawn) to swat any suits that come close and capture objectives with beast speed. Point for point Renegades bring FAR more firepower to the table then Tau. I have been incredibly surprised that I have never seen renegades described as OP on Dakka. They are so powerful outside of the recent Asterix Magic potion dexes. I'd put my neck out to say the most powerful after the post BA dexes. Far more powerful than Tau in every way.

I assume this is because of 2 reasons:
1-few people play renegades and heretics, so there is not much talk about them.
2-IoM and chaos players allow IoM and chaos armies get away with ANYTHING. but will hate anything a xeno has that is better, even if its only situational, marginal or requires a sacrifice elsewhere. its just their horde mentality for some reason, don't know why.

 Gangrel767 wrote:
I
I always bust my good friend who plays Tau by telling him, the new Eldar Codex made Tau OP. lol Obviously it's a joke, but my point is that Tau now have the most amount of Ignores Cover, and LOS ignoring weapons. They are still in a very good spot.

Tau has very little LoS ignoring guns. in fact, just the SMS. nothing else (well, there is that one "relic" gun but its only 18" anyway, and mere S4AP5 plate, not exactly game changing)

I second Boomwolf.

Was thinking about posting pretty much the same thing about Terrain myself, but figured it wouldn't be worth it as very few people have paid attention to it in the past. Too many players focus on the Cover Save as if that is all Terrain is good for, when it is the Line of Sight blocking element that every player should be looking to use to their advantage. I've had some people argue that they shouldn't have to rely on Terrain in order to beat any army, even against Tau, because it 'cheapens the experience.' They consider it a bad thing to ensure the Terrain favours them, probably because of opponent complaints when successful, even if the decision not to only allows their opponents a massive advantage. Yet, against Tau for sure, using Terrain to ensure there are 'blind spots' that prevent firing lanes is vital to ensure you are not fighting on Terrain that unfairly favours your opponent.

I never could understand this 'anti-terrain' mentality, as fighting on favourable ground is one of the things real world Armies try to do as much as possible.

 BoomWolf wrote:

DaPino wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
That's actually wrong. Spamming it is easy.

But it's not any better than grav at killing hordes, simple issue of shot count.

DaPino your exaggerations are so bad are absurd as a hammerhead taking out even a chimera is not a 25%, even at BS5 ignore cover. So losing big tanks frequently is funny.
Also having at least 3 of your units marked to oblivion after you took out two marker units suggest abnormal marker count, therefor little guns.
That or made up. Nonsense.

I explicitly said that it WAS an exaggeration, I refer you to my follow-up post where I said that all of those things might not happen at once, but one of them does rather frequently.

The thing is, you're right. A BS5, cover-ignoring hammerhead has abut 23% chance to outright kill an AV11 target and about 18% if the target is AV12, that doesn't look very impressive. But let's look at some other units. Tri-las pred has a 8% chance to explode AV11 and 6% chance against AV12 (assuming the targets are in cover). Same for 3 obliterators using Lascannons. Lascannon havocs 11% and 8% respectively.
Even if you double all those perentages (target without cover), the only thing comming close to the hammerhead is the havocs. So hammerheads do have a significantly increased chance at instantaneously blowing something up.

Yes, you said its an exaggeration, but its SO far off reality it makes you look like a fool, rather than like someone trying to make a point. exaggerations need to be somewhat rooted in reality.

Also, you are ignoring the fact that other than the hammerhead, all of them can also get a kill via hullpoint damage-if not alone then in work with a second unit, something a hammerhead is simply incapable of-a bare minimum of 3 is neede for a CHANCE to hullpoint a chimera. and its the most practical method to kill tanks in this day and age.

And you used units who are wildly accepted as subpar for your comparison to boot, good job. (oblits are not subpar in general, but they should only lascanon an MC, not a tank. you got MM for that.) and even there you got the numbers absurdly wrong.

Just for fun, I ran lascanon havocs (so 4 BS4 lascanons), and made them consider cover 5+ against an AV12 target. 8% for hullpoint death alone, on top of 14% to score an explosion. an unsupported hammerhead on the other hand has 9% to score an explosion, despite costing not much less. sure, at BS5 ignore cover its a "great" 23% (we'll get there), but at natural stats? mere 9%. a chimera.

So, 155 points of havocs got 14% to explode and 8% to wreck, without being willing to calculate the overlap we'll assume a generous of half wrecks explode as well, so its a 18% kill chance. the hammerhead when natural has HALF the chance, for 125 points. a simple ranking system made of "killchance/price" gives havocs a score of 0.116129, hammerhead gets 0.072. havoc efficency ranking is 62% above the hammerhead.
LASCANON HAVOCS. hardly the stuff of legends.

Looking at the buffed hammerhead, just to drive the point in. the buffed hammerhead (ignore cover, BS5) will cost you at the mot efficient method, ignoring all the strings attached a total of 191 minimum for netting it as the average result.
It will explode 18% of the time (wait what? not the 23 you claimed? shocker.)
Then we put it in the ranking system and it gets 0.09424, still 19% in ranking under the havocs.

So even the big bad buffed hammerhead, under the most optimal of conditions, is actually not any better than simple lascanon havocs when it comes to killing a chimera. while not wanting to run the numbers, I'm willing to bet the others are not faring much worse either, despite not fitting for a direct comparison (oblits got an aresnal of choices, including DS with MM, hardly fair. trilas is wildly considered bad anyway, etc...), and lets not forget that lascanon havoks will do more damage to ANYTHING with a T value other than T5 units with at least 5 wounds, or 3 wounds and FnP (you can calculated it if you want)

So unless you are going to claim lascanon havocs are OP, you better drop the act about hammerheads being a serious threat to tanks, or that they in any way "allow no reaction", I just proved to you that a reaction is not even needed-they can't get the job done anyway.

The only way hammerheads constantly take out your tanks T1, is if you are showing them the rear.

I'd seriously like you to show me the math. I've done it over and over against AV11, a hammerhead should have 23% chance of exploding it instantly.
If I'm doing this wrong, just tell me and that'll be that, you'll be right and I'll be wrong, no need to be so condescending.

For a BS5 hammerhead with ignores cover
1 shot
BS 5 so 0.833333... hits or a 83.33% chance to hit.
AV11 so needing a 2 to pen means 0.833333....*0.833333... = 69.44% chance to pen
Needing a 5 to explode, meaning 0.6944444...*0.33333 clearly = 0,23 or 23% chance to get an explodes result.

If that's wrong, fine, I just figured that's how it was. You'll have changed my view, just as you wanted.
Also, I did not ignore the fact that other things have a way bigger chance of glancing things to death because of their increased volume of shots, but that's just not what we're discussing. I said I'm bothered by the hammerheads increased chance to kill a vehicle in 1 shot on turn one, not because of it's immense anti-tank capabilities. Not a single unit I've named has a realistic potential to glance a vehicle to death turn one, unless I'm doing the math incorrectly again, in which case I'd be more than happy to believe you providing you give me some math.
True, all of the units I've listed are considered sub-par, but so is the hammerhead so I don't see why I can't compare them.

 BoomWolf wrote:

DaPino wrote:
And I want to stress this again, I don't think Tau are OP, I think they are boring. Against just about any other army, I can mitigate these risks of getting blown up turn one simply by using my brain a bit and deploying so I get cover saves for the right units, against the right units. There are far better tank hunters around but, at least most of the time, I can either 1) stay away or if that's not possible 2) get a save against them. Almost impossible against Tau, which doesn't mean Tau are better at tank hunting, but it makes the game more boring because the tactical aspect of deployment and movement becomes smaller.

Terrain, normally, can both be advantageous or disadvantageous, depending on the situation. It's up to both players to figure out which of those holds true when they're taking a turn.
Unless, of course, Tau are involved. Then terrain becomes nothing but a bother you have to churn through, something that slows you down. It feels like the entire board is part of the Tau's army list because it's only there to help him keep your units away.

If you think there are no tactics involved when playing against tau I have to assume you are a bad player.
The fact you claim that terrain becomes nothing but a bother is the most obvious alarm bell. against "classic" tau gunline types you want with nearly every army to have as much terrain as possible-its practically a rule of thumb against tau to make sure the table isn't empty.
Even if you won't get cover saves, every 2 markers used to ignore cover are 2 not used to increase BS. you just need to learn how to USE the terrain, rather than be bothered by it.
Against "enclaves" it becomes a double-edged sword, but given that its an army centered around mobility and trickery, I doubt you actually think THAT variation has no tactics involved.

Most of my wins derive directly from my opponents deploying wrong, making the wrong moves, prioritizing the wrong targets and not utilizing the full scope of the abilities of their armies. even simple things are choosing to combat squad wrong (against tau? 100% of the time you do. we find 2 five man squads much harder to remove than a single 10 man squad.), "feeding" me units into the meatgrinder (no, it dosent matter how tough is your unit, if its alone-I'll crack it, you have to dispaly multiple threats), don't take advantage of LOS blocking (markerlights don't help if I got no line of sight with either the marker, OR the shooter, you got 2 block chances-tau got no practical indirect fire.), and generally failing even simple tactics such as not thinking of the fact even a "shooty" unit is going to have an edge on me in CC and not assaulting ("why should I assault? this unit is better at shooting!", yes. but mine is an even better shot, but worse at assault. you go from being a 7 to being a 4, but take my guns from 8 to 3. its your edge.), and even going as foolish as ignoring my markerlights and going for the "real threats". ("it can't kill anything anyway.")

The point is, they are using the same tactics that work against your every day space marines against my tau, and that's simply not working, as tau play differently. our support units carry the "threats", not the other way around, we can shoot to oblivion, but have to focus fire, we consider a "nearly-dead" unit as a still legitimize threat in CC (that 1 assault marine survivor flying around can still disable an entire unit in CC if not dealt with) and we can little for deathstars-we find MSU far harder to deal with.
Your washed-up anti-everything tactics just don't work, so you think there are no tactics. in reality, you are just using all the wrong ones.

My losses on the other hand are mostly against players who figure out how differently they need to act, how to force my hand and how to counter my own tactics. they don't get it right every time-but WHO does it right is consistent. some players can give me a hard game/defeat with every army, others cant do it with any army. I can usually tell if I am going to have an easy game or an uphill battle before even the game starts, there is just that vibe that comes off from serious tacticians that you can simply tell are not going to fall for cheap tricks or repeating builds. some who I have to bring a different list with different MOs against them every time I play, otherwise they will figure me out, find my weaknesses and beat me-sometimes the shuffle isn't enough as they manage to anticipate it in advance.


Seriously, I can make a whole shopping list of the LIKELY tactical mistakes people are making then claiming "tau has no tactics". the same errors repeat with most of them.







Now, I'm going to risk sounding extremely rude and border on the inappropriate, but please don't make any more comments on the subject of tau being OP, boring, uncreative, offer no counterplay or whatnot unless you properly study the subject first to make sure the things you type are anchored with reality.
Its exhausting when I need to take off my precious time to defend empirical truths about my army by math, because otherwise notions like the one you are promoting that tau are somehow a problem are taught to the unknowing who takes them for granted despite not having any solid information, and they later ruin my gaming fun when I face baseless hate.
I do NOT enjoy repeating need to be proving that everything and anything tau haters say is outright wrong in a mathematical sense any more then I enjoy homework. its tedious. its almost like trying to unconvert a cult.
Its not fun for me, and I'm sure it not fun for you to get scolded. but you will get it as long as you keep spewing nonsense as you have done in this thread so far.
Hopefully you are among the people who will actually bother to read, learn and improve themselves, and many I have encountered in this forum keep returning to the same mistakes no matter how many times I prove them wrong. please don't be one of those people.



That being said, I have already ran the math of practically every tau unit in the past, proving them to be equal or inferior to the very same units that the haters try to compare them to (unsuccessfully), the TWO exceptions are the IA, and the broadside's HYMP, the very same things every reasonable tau player will have no problem admitting are just too good.
Unfortunately they are also the crutches the tau codex stands on. other then them, few tau units are actually worth it. even on the same units-the other guns are simply bad compared to anything.
People say the tau codex is bland, well. that's a given. its a very SMALL codex (despite supposedly representing a whole federation of races)
Beyond the two troublemakers the -good- units in the tau codex settle in crisis suits(and commander), ethreals, fire warriors and pathfinders, with skyrays and longstrike being "decent enough, and mandatory due to lack of alternative". with such a small pool to work with, there is hardly a reason to wonder tau armies repeat themselves.
We got not nearly the same amount of raw materials to work with as the likes of eldar or marines, even without counting allied mixing they got more options that are good then our entire codex, good and bad combined.
You want tau to be less repetitive? the first step it to make the entire rest of the codex not as mind-numbing irrelevant. and expand upon it. there is infinite room to expand, just add more alien races.

I never said no tactics are involved when playing against Tau, don't put words in my mouth. I said there's less tactics (as in fewer tactical choices), not that they're non-existant. For exampe, in a battle against another army I'll have to figure out what unit I need to deal with first. When playing Tau it's "go for the markerlights".

I am fully aware that every 2 markerlights spent on IC are 2 not spent on a BS upgrade, but that doesn't change the point that some armies are almost entirely designed about having cover saves.
I agree with you however that making people waste markerlights is a tactic in and of itself, but it's also just about the only tactic.

And I don't know how many times I've got to tell you before it gets through to you, it's not the strength of the army that bothers me. I've never said I'm bothered by how repetetive Tau lists are, nor have I said anything about having not being able to win against them. Again, don't put words in my mouth. I bet it's exhausting to defend empirical truths about your army, especially if you're going to do it every time even if they are not the point of discussion. You're right, it's not the players fault that they aren't given enough options, but that doesn't make those options more fun to play against.
Every battle vs Tau I have feels like a chore. And again, I'm not saying Hammerheads are OP tank-hunters, in fact broadsides would do a far better job at it than hammerheads, I realize that. But that doesn't make it any more fun to see how units get destroyed without so much as a save (whereas they would have gotten one vs just about anything that's not Tau).

Someone I play regularly (yes he's a Tau player) once said to me how boring the psychic phase is for him because he doesn't get to do anything and it takes so long (while in reality it doesn't even last 2 minutes). Well that's exactly how Tau shooting feels to me. It's sitting there, hoping on the off-chance that he's finally going to shoot something I DO have a realistic chance of saving against. Meanwhile I'll wait until I have to remove X amount of models from unit Y when called upon.



P.s. you shouldn't have been bothered by risking sounding rude because you've been pretty rude so far regardless.

I have always viewed Tau markerlights as our psychic powers. Other armies get to twin link a unit of thier choice, or make my units explode in some way or another, or turn something of theirs invisable or stupidly strong and tough. Or any number of choice crazily abuisable powers. And there is nothing a Tau player can do about it. Not a damn thing aside from the lucky Deny the witch if it ever applies.

So we have a method of boosting BS (pretty much the same over all effect as twin linking for example). The ignore cover save yeah, its a strong one, but so are a large number of other psychic powers that when cast onto the correct units.

I just dont get the hate, and I've played as Tau and against Tau for a very long time. And in the case of DE... Well, I guess Tau are just the sissors to their wet paper units. Bad match ups... we all have them.

Everything is scissors to the Dark Eldar's wet paper bags....

Dry paper bags are far easier to cut with scissors :-p.

Being wet doesn't stop the Dark Elder from being quite easy to cut.

On a slightly seperate note, I remember a WD article back in 3rd which covered a GW tournament and 3 of the top 10 armies included Dark Eldar, each force had 6 warrior units with 2 DLs each and something extra like 3 ravegers(?). Back then having 21 Dark Lance shots placed high in tournaments... oh how times have changed - that would be less firepower than a basic grav cent unit these days.

 Jayden63 wrote:
I have always viewed Tau markerlights as our psychic powers. Other armies get to twin link a unit of thier choice, or make my units explode in some way or another, or turn something of theirs invisable or stupidly strong and tough. Or any number of choice crazily abuisable powers. And there is nothing a Tau player can do about it. Not a damn thing aside from the lucky Deny the witch if it ever applies.

But you see, that's the thing. While you rely on getting lucky--there is nothing that can be done outside of staying out of range of Markerlights.

If it were an I test or something similar, I don't think there would be an issue.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I have always viewed Tau markerlights as our psychic powers. Other armies get to twin link a unit of thier choice, or make my units explode in some way or another, or turn something of theirs invisable or stupidly strong and tough. Or any number of choice crazily abuisable powers. And there is nothing a Tau player can do about it. Not a damn thing aside from the lucky Deny the witch if it ever applies.

But you see, that's the thing. While you rely on getting lucky--there is nothing that can be done outside of staying out of range of Markerlights.

If it were an I test or something similar, I don't think there would be an issue.

Or you can focus on them first and kill them and completely cripple the rest of the Tau players army. I still fail to see how killing something that is only T3 or T4 with a 4+ or 5+ save is that hard to kill, especially since if they are on Pathfinders they HAVE to be setup in line of sight since they are Heavy Weapons and would be forced to fire Snap Shots if they move. If you have not figured that out yet there are some other things that need to be worked out with your forces.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I have always viewed Tau markerlights as our psychic powers. Other armies get to twin link a unit of thier choice, or make my units explode in some way or another, or turn something of theirs invisable or stupidly strong and tough. Or any number of choice crazily abuisable powers. And there is nothing a Tau player can do about it. Not a damn thing aside from the lucky Deny the witch if it ever applies.

But you see, that's the thing. While you rely on getting lucky--there is nothing that can be done outside of staying out of range of Markerlights.

If it were an I test or something similar, I don't think there would be an issue.

And prior to 6th edition, psychic powers completely dominated Tau, because there was simply nothing to do but bend over and take it. In sixth edition they had no way of stopping buffs and only got their 6+ DTW if the other guy targeted them. Now, we get an abismal number of dice against any insane number that the other guy can generate.

So yeah. Markerlights are our powers. Be thankful that we have to roll to hit on a 4+, 6+ if the unit had to move. I'd much rather have a psycher who can hide in squads and buff to his hearts content only failing on a perils.

DaPino wrote:


I'd seriously like you to show me the math. I've done it over and over against AV11, a hammerhead should have 23% chance of exploding it instantly.
If I'm doing this wrong, just tell me and that'll be that, you'll be right and I'll be wrong, no need to be so condescending.

For a BS5 hammerhead with ignores cover
1 shot
BS 5 so 0.833333... hits or a 83.33% chance to hit.
AV11 so needing a 2 to pen means 0.833333....*0.833333... = 69.44% chance to pen
Needing a 5 to explode, meaning 0.6944444...*0.33333 clearly = 0,23 or 23% chance to get an explodes result.

If that's wrong, fine, I just figured that's how it was. You'll have changed my view, just as you wanted.
Also, I did not ignore the fact that other things have a way bigger chance of glancing things to death because of their increased volume of shots, but that's just not what we're discussing. I said I'm bothered by the hammerheads increased chance to kill a vehicle in 1 shot on turn one, not because of it's immense anti-tank capabilities. Not a single unit I've named has a realistic potential to glance a vehicle to death turn one, unless I'm doing the math incorrectly again, in which case I'd be more than happy to believe you providing you give me some math.
True, all of the units I've listed are considered sub-par, but so is the hammerhead so I don't see why I can't compare them.

You ran the numbers on AV11, the chemira has 12 in the front. apperantly that's what led to your missed numbers.
Does not change the fact that even against AV11, the result of the havocs would be better than the hammerhead, buffed or not. all the numbers i crunched are against AV12

Even at 23% to blow up an AV11, it means the hammer is useless even against that. clocking at 191 for a buffed hammer, to kill JUST a 35 point rhino? (possibly FREE rhino)
Do you honestly believe its a viable choice for a serious game? a "dedicated anti-tank" unit, that has a 23% to kill a tank less that is less then a fifth of its cost? in what world is that anywhere near efficient?

And what do you mean you "its not what we are talking about" with glances? how is dying to a couple of glances any different then dying to an explode result? the fact the opponent rolls more dice makes it somehow more interactive to you?

You say not a single one of the units you named as a realistic chance to glace anything to death, after I JUST crunched you the numbers and showed that in fact they got a better kill chance then the hammerhead, points compared. and this IS a game of points, not modelcount.

The worst of it, you say yourself that the hammerhead is subpar! why are we even arguing there!
The hammerhead needs improving! the fact the tri-las also needs improved not not contradict it. the fact havocs might be in need of improving also does not (though after running havoc numvers, they are not too bad)

 Jayden63 wrote:
I have always viewed Tau markerlights as our psychic powers. Other armies get to twin link a unit of thier choice, or make my units explode in some way or another, or turn something of theirs invisable or stupidly strong and tough. Or any number of choice crazily abuisable powers. And there is nothing a Tau player can do about it. Not a damn thing aside from the lucky Deny the witch if it ever applies.

So we have a method of boosting BS (pretty much the same over all effect as twin linking for example). The ignore cover save yeah, its a strong one, but so are a large number of other psychic powers that when cast onto the correct units.

I just dont get the hate, and I've played as Tau and against Tau for a very long time. And in the case of DE... Well, I guess Tau are just the sissors to their wet paper units. Bad match ups... we all have them.

I kind of understand where you're comming from, but psykers in general are far more expensive than markerlights. 2x8 Pathfinders (what you need to score 6 markerlights on average) cost 176 points, and generally speaking you get about 2 mastery levels for that. That's not nearly enough to base a reliable psychic phase on. It's just an example, but the comparisson only grows larger as the amount of points go up because you get a markerlight for every 11 points you spend (or 12 if it's marker drones IIRC). The cost for a ML varies wildly, because you need to buy a unit which can cost anywhere from 65 to 200+ for a single ML, but some of those can be upgraded to ML3 for 50 points.

Bottom line is, it's not as easy to stock up on ML's as it is to stock up on markers, unless you're playing Chaos daemons or Grey knights that is. If I play CSM and I stack up to the max, I'll maybe get to ML9 (single force org)? And that's using units everyone considers to be sub-par to say the least (Ahriman and thousand sons). Right, I'm going to have a strong psychic phase right there, that's true. If I can get Ahriman close, we're probably looking at a dead unit each turn in the psychic phase. But it costs me 865 points to get him the warp charges he needs in order to do that (well he probably could do with a bit less, with the D6 I get and all).

 Jayden63 wrote:


And prior to 6th edition, psychic powers completely dominated Tau, because there was simply nothing to do but bend over and take it. In sixth edition they had no way of stopping buffs and only got their 6+ DTW if the other guy targeted them. Now, we get an abismal number of dice against any insane number that the other guy can generate.

So yeah. Markerlights are our powers. Be thankful that we have to roll to hit on a 4+, 6+ if the unit had to move. I'd much rather have a psycher who can hide in squads and buff to his hearts content only failing on a perils.

Or failing because he can't get enough passes on his psychic test? You just literally said that we should be thankful that you need a 4+ to hit while completely ignoring that psykers need 1 or more 4+'s to get a power to go off (and if it's a witchfire, you need to roll to hit aswell, so the chance of that going through to the end are even lower). And even if the power goes off, you have a slight chance of denying it.

Read the first part of my post, it's not nearly as easy to get insane numbers of mastery levels as you make it out to be.

Prior to 6th edition, that's kind of key here. They changed it because they saw it was a problem and now some people are perceiving markerlights to be a problem because :

There was simply nothing to do but bend over and take it. In sixth edition they had no way of stopping buffs

Replace the word "was" by "is" and "buffs" by "markerlights" (and maybe "sixth" with "seventh").

You are blaming psychic powers for being OP because of reasons that are exactly the same reasons why people hate markerlights. And I think I'll need to say this again, but I don't think Tau nor markerlights are OP, just annoying and not fun to play against. I just wanted to point out that your point was kind of unfair.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:

.....

We are having wildly different discussion here. You are trying to prove to me that "Tau (or in this case hammerheads) are not OP", but that was never my intended discussion. I know that they're not OP, I said they were annoying and not fun to play against.
Yes it's true, every single unit I've listed is more damaging to vehicles. But what I find so annoying about hammerheads (and Tau in general) is their ability to do it in one turn (which is especially bothersome and not fun if it happens turn 1). You can't rely on it, but when it happens I can't help but think "Well, it's going to be one of those games again" because I just lost quite a chunk of my army without being able to do anything about it and that unit was basicly a paperweight I put on the table because it wasn't able to do anything about it.

And the thing is, I don't know why we're still dwelling on that hammerhead either, so let's drop it altogether okay?

I don't care about it's capabilities to win, I care about how fun it is to play. I'm going to skip over the hammerhead because as you've said it's not such a commonsight. What is a common sight however, is missilesides.
I know that a majority of Tau players that Broadsides are too strong. And while I agree that having a more internally balanced codex will allow Tau players to have a more varying army resulting in less broadsides, that does not change the current state Tau are in.

Now what bothers me about missilesides is that they have the ability to grind anything into the dirt in one turn. Again I don't care about it's capabilities of dishing out damage over the course of an entire game, but rather the damage it deals in one turn because that is what makes Tau a bother to play against. A broadside unit that has a single markerlight as support (so BS4 broadside and BS3 drones) is very likely to destroy an AV12 target in cover.

If Tau gets first turn, that's probably 3 vehicles gone without them being able to do so much as move. I don't care whether that's going to win or lose me the game in the end, it's boring and it means a fair chunk of my army is basicly a paperweight because all I did was set them up and put them back in their box.
And I see you coming from a mile away, yes there's always going to be models that don't do anything but step on and off the battlefield, but it's never as much the case as with Tau. I rarely have to take 3 whole units of the board before they get to do something, but it's becomming a common occurence with Tau.

And again, the end result doesn't bother me. I can win against Tau, they're not THAT strong. But it's god damn boring and tedious to do so.

What.
Just what.

All the other units CAN DO IT ON ONE TURN AND BETTER.
What the flying duck is your argument here?
"Its wrong when tau can shoot something T1, despite everyone else doing it, often better"?

If tau has first turn, its probably 3 vehicles gone? yea, you play like a scrub. against a good player I find it hard to garantee a single kill when I'm first. stop blaming tau if you can't take minimal precausions.
Broadsides has only 36" range and are immobile, rail weapons proven to be worthless even when markered (again 36" of immobile). if your tanks are not bumrushing like morons, they won't die like morons.
If you ARE bumrushing like a moron, the only one not using any stratagy and tactics, is you.
Furthermore, have you even read the TOPIC of this thread?

Plus, 176 area getting you 2 mastery points? what are you smoking?
2 mastery points can be achieved, with ease, at 85 points for CSM, 90 for SM, 110 for inqusition, 70 for deamons, (they can get 3 at 95) 70 for eldar, (100 for three), 75 for IG, etc, etc.
If mastery spam is what you are after, its not that hard. paying 175 for two is absurdly high.

That's if we allow ourselves to forget that most psykers take much more to kill than pathfinders as they can hide in units, often got useful CC equipment, and sometimes are freaking monsters. yaknow, in case that ever comes up.

Assuming a single force org, and that's a dumb assumption, a pure CSM force can net 6 mastery levels with 2 level 3 sorcerers with familiars each, at 250 points.
So, they get 6 spells to work with (up to 8 if you get focuses), re rolling failed harness tests, supply LD10 to the units that cover them, are not immobile, pack force weapons and WS5 so they provide relevant CC stats, and fill mandatory HQ slots for your extra force orgs if you want, giving you spread rather than taking it.

Sure, you could pack 22 pathfinder there, and they WILL provide better shooting buffs (11 marks on average), but they will not provide the rest of the support abilities, and will be limited by their own flaws.
So in the end, 2 sorcerers and the 22 pathfinders? provide similar value.


(PS, marker drones are 14 points when not in squads, and are BS2.)


I've lost hope of reasonable discussion with you.
Not a single thing you said, on any subject, has any relation to how the game actually works.
Not going to bother with you any more.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I have always viewed Tau markerlights as our psychic powers. Other armies get to twin link a unit of thier choice, or make my units explode in some way or another, or turn something of theirs invisable or stupidly strong and tough. Or any number of choice crazily abuisable powers. And there is nothing a Tau player can do about it. Not a damn thing aside from the lucky Deny the witch if it ever applies.

But you see, that's the thing. While you rely on getting lucky--there is nothing that can be done outside of staying out of range of Markerlights.

If it were an I test or something similar, I don't think there would be an issue.

Or you can focus on them first and kill them and completely cripple the rest of the Tau players army. I still fail to see how killing something that is only T3 or T4 with a 4+ or 5+ save is that hard to kill, especially since if they are on Pathfinders they HAVE to be setup in line of sight since they are Heavy Weapons and would be forced to fire Snap Shots if they move. If you have not figured that out yet there are some other things that need to be worked out with your forces.

Killing something before it kills you is not a counter - it called battle - a battle that tau tend to win automatically if they go first. I've had a buffmander deathstar take out 5 units coming out of deep strike before. He didn't even need to roll exceptionally well for that to happen.

Riptides are OP, markerlgihts are OP, and 1 unit coming out of DS without scatter and taking out 3-5 units is also OP.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I have always viewed Tau markerlights as our psychic powers. Other armies get to twin link a unit of thier choice, or make my units explode in some way or another, or turn something of theirs invisable or stupidly strong and tough. Or any number of choice crazily abuisable powers. And there is nothing a Tau player can do about it. Not a damn thing aside from the lucky Deny the witch if it ever applies.

But you see, that's the thing. While you rely on getting lucky--there is nothing that can be done outside of staying out of range of Markerlights.

If it were an I test or something similar, I don't think there would be an issue.

Or you can focus on them first and kill them and completely cripple the rest of the Tau players army. I still fail to see how killing something that is only T3 or T4 with a 4+ or 5+ save is that hard to kill, especially since if they are on Pathfinders they HAVE to be setup in line of sight since they are Heavy Weapons and would be forced to fire Snap Shots if they move. If you have not figured that out yet there are some other things that need to be worked out with your forces.

Because Cover isn't a thing, right? Once again: Not every army has Ignores Cover rules.

36" is really nothing to sneeze at for Markerlight range.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I've had a buffmander deathstar take out 5 units coming out of deep strike before. He didn't even need to roll exceptionally well for that to happen.

What were the units you lost? What was the composition of the deathstar? WHY DIDN'T YOU DEPLOY THEM NORMALLY?
What the heck was the deathstar? Farsight & seven bodyguards with Target Lock, EWO and missile pod? that isn't exactly an optimal loadout.

I call ********. oh wait, you mean over several turns? why was the unit alive to do this to you?

If you want to defeat EWOs in deployment, deploy everything on the table. Dang near every army can do this, no? (The only exception (I think) is daemons)

 carldooley wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I've had a buffmander deathstar take out 5 units coming out of deep strike before. He didn't even need to roll exceptionally well for that to happen.

What were the units you lost? What was the composition of the deathstar? WHY DIDN'T YOU DEPLOY THEM NORMALLY?
What the heck was the deathstar? Farsight & seven bodyguards with Target Lock, EWO and missile pod? that isn't exactly an optimal loadout.

I call ********. oh wait, you mean over several turns? why was the unit alive to do this to you?

If you want to defeat EWOs in deployment, deploy everything on the table. Dang near every army can do this, no? (The only exception (I think) is daemons)

No - in a single turn. They had a variety of weapons. Plasmas, fusions, and missles. He deep struck on me. Into his front lines.

Took out a 5 man GKT and libby/ a rhino/a 5 man purifer/ and a dreadknight. I think it had 7 suits in the squad.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Because Cover isn't a thing, right? Once again: Not every army has Ignores Cover rules.

36" is really nothing to sneeze at for Markerlight range.

An 8 man squad only needs 2 wounds to force a morale check.
It's a T3 unit. They are 5+ so easy enough to avoid armor and force cover saves.
Put on enough wounds and you can force them to go to ground.
Either way it's not that hard to hurt them badly or make them snap fire.

If a T3, 5+, and low model count unit with poor leadership is something you consider neigh unstoppable then I don't know what to tell you. It's not like they are the only unit to have cover either. How do you kill any unit that has cover? Just do the same thing to the pathfinders, but probably less because they are weak.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Because Cover isn't a thing, right? Once again: Not every army has Ignores Cover rules.

36" is really nothing to sneeze at for Markerlight range.

An 8 man squad only needs 2 wounds to force a morale check.
It's a T3 unit. They are 5+ so easy enough to avoid armor and force cover saves.
Put on enough wounds and you can force them to go to ground.
Either way it's not that hard to hurt them badly or make them snap fire.

If a T3, 5+, and low model count unit with poor leadership is something you consider neigh unstoppable then I don't know what to tell you. It's not like they are the only unit to have cover either. How do you kill any unit that has cover? Just do the same thing to the pathfinders, but probably less because they are weak.

No one has trouble killing pathfinders. In fact - I think pathfinders are a pretty poor choice for marker lights. Drones, characters, and skyrays are a much better choices. However - a few 5 man markerlight squads do their job pretty well - it forces you to shoot them up and they are very cheap units. If you don't shoot them up - you lose pretty quick.

I made a Farsight deathstar one day to see how it would function and I called it the 'Mega Unit' for a reason, the thing cost more then 1024 points to put together!

I would not deny it was a beast once it hit the table in Turn 2, in one round of shooting it appeared that it would alone win the Game as it chew men out of their Unit's in waves. However, good Terrain placement and Deployment by my opponent greatly limited which Units it could freely shoot at and that is a massive factor in dealing with any Deep-striking deathstar. As it was still Tau, it was Tar-pitted as soon as possible and I got to see a Unit that cost more then half my Army doing nothing for the remainder of the Game. I was actually amazed it managed to survive at that point, but armour saves and drone's to take the blows are useful things to have in Close Combat.

Not the worse deathstar out there, but one rarely worth it's costs even before Super-heavies became common place thing.

JinxDragon wrote:
I made a Farsight deathstar one day to see how it would function and I called it the 'Mega Unit' for a reason, the thing cost more then 1024 points to put together!

I would not deny it was a beast once it hit the table in Turn 2, in one round of shooting it appeared that it would alone win the Game as it chew men out of their Unit's in waves. However, good Terrain placement and Deployment by my opponent greatly limited which Units it could freely shoot at and that is a massive factor in dealing with any Deep-striking deathstar. As it was still Tau, it was Tar-pitted as soon as possible and I got to see a Unit that cost more then half my Army doing nothing for the remainder of the Game. I was actually amazed it managed to survive at that point, but armour saves and drone's to take the blows are useful things to have in Close Combat.

Not the worse deathstar out there, but one rarely worth it's costs even before Super-heavies became common place thing.

Getting into CC with is the best way to kill or make useless most deathstars. There is no reason to run this thing without hit and run though.

Honestly... I forgot I had it when it came time to test out the Unit.

 BoomWolf wrote:
What.
Just what.

All the other units CAN DO IT ON ONE TURN AND BETTER.
What the flying duck is your argument here?
"Its wrong when tau can shoot something T1, despite everyone else doing it, often better"?

If tau has first turn, its probably 3 vehicles gone? yea, you play like a scrub. against a good player I find it hard to garantee a single kill when I'm first. stop blaming tau if you can't take minimal precausions.
Broadsides has only 36" range and are immobile, rail weapons proven to be worthless even when markered (again 36" of immobile). if your tanks are not bumrushing like morons, they won't die like morons.
If you ARE bumrushing like a moron, the only one not using any stratagy and tactics, is you.

Well, you're right, staying out of 36" is a sound tactic. Can't really say much about that.
Yet I doubt you'll find lots of units that can take out vehicles easier than broadsides (with markers), altough I can think of a few. I can't say I've faced those units, but I'm pretty sure I'd find them boring aswell.

But come on, "everyone else doing it, often better", do you even believe it yourself? What was that about "looking like a fool" when making unrealistic exaggerations?

 BoomWolf wrote:

Furthermore, have you even read the TOPIC of this thread?

Yes I did, and I said "No, I don't think they're OP, just annoying and boring to play".
That's when people jumped me, trying to prove Tau are not boring and that's how we got here.

Plus, 176 area getting you 2 mastery points? what are you smoking?
2 mastery points can be achieved, with ease, at 85 points for CSM, 90 for SM, 110 for inqusition, 70 for deamons, (they can get 3 at 95) 70 for eldar, (100 for three), 75 for IG, etc, etc.
If mastery spam is what you are after, its not that hard. paying 175 for two is absurdly high.

That's if we allow ourselves to forget that most psykers take much more to kill than pathfinders as they can hide in units, often got useful CC equipment, and sometimes are freaking monsters. yaknow, in case that ever comes up.

Assuming a single force org, and that's a dumb assumption, a pure CSM force can net 6 mastery levels with 2 level 3 sorcerers with familiars each, at 250 points.
So, they get 6 spells to work with (up to 8 if you get focuses), re rolling failed harness tests, supply LD10 to the units that cover them, are not immobile, pack force weapons and WS5 so they provide relevant CC stats, and fill mandatory HQ slots for your extra force orgs if you want, giving you spread rather than taking it.

For someone claiming I make unfair points because I use sub-par units as examples, you certainly made a lot of points there using sub-par units as example.
Yes, 250 gets me 6 mastery levels if I run 2 sorcerers with nothing but ML upgrades and spell familiars, but assuming that's ever going to see the table is just ridiculous.

What does see some play however, is a ML3 sorcerer with a mark of Nurgle on a bike. That's a viable unit, 2 sorcerers on foot are not. That sorcerer costs 160 points, that's how I get to that "ludicrous" amount and I'll give it to you, that's 3 mastery levels, not 2.

But on his own, he isn't going to be useful unless he has some support/ a unit to hide in, just like your pathfinders won't be useful on their own. Commonly, support for HQ's with bikes tend to be either spawn or bikes. Let's say it's going to be bikes because if I can't rely on cover saves, spawn become less durable (unless of course vs AP3 and up).
So if I add 5 bikes (commonly with melta guns and MoN), that'll be 346 in total (20 points under 9 pathfinders and a broadside unit with 6 missile drones) . All in order to have 3 mastery levels that are actually going to be useful in a game instead of in some hypothetical build in which my only objective is to get as much mastery levels as possible regardless of how it will perform.

You told me I looked like a fool because my exaggerations are not based upon reality, yet you would make examples that are at least as unrealistic to support your case.

 BoomWolf wrote:

I've lost hope of reasonable discussion with you.
Not a single thing you said, on any subject, has any relation to how the game actually works.
Not going to bother with you any more.

Maybe that's for the best, because we're still holding two different discussion here.
You're still not getting that I'm not annoyed by the strength of the army, but rather by the army itself and the way it's played. Now I already acknowledged that that isn't the player's fault because it's a mono-build dex, but that doesn't change the fact that I have to face it and it's a boring experience.