Ever noticed how everyone thinks Chaos is evil? I disagree. The Imperium is evil. Chaos are those few people brave enough to stand up against an injust, racist society, those who really value the freedom to worship who they want, be led by who they want and do whatever the heck they think they want, within reason.
Yeah, lets stand up to the injustice and racist society of the Imperial Hierarchy by pillaging, raping, murdering, sacrificing, enslaving and infecting every innocent civillian that had no choice in the way they were brought up.
That sounds totally within reason to me....
Chaos are *Chaotic* Evil, Imperium are Chaotic Neutral, there is still a whole tier between them.
The Imperium never really struck me as evil. Just (to an extent) pragmatic. They know from experience that simply seeing a daemon can be enough to permanently taint a lesser human. They know from experience that even the slightest of Chaos Taints can lead to a full-blown Daemon incursion that takes down half a Sector. They don't just kill people willy-nilla, they have a reason for everything they do. sure, it's morally grey (considering the fact that their murdering a few to save a billion more), but at least they do it to preserve other lives and keep ther species alive.
Chaos, on the other hand, doesn't give a rat's furry hindquarters about the species or morality period. All that they care about is raping, pillaging, murdering, and having fun. Unless you're nurgle, of course, in which case you're just trying to bring more people into the loving arms of your family.
Chaos Spawn wrote: Ever noticed how everyone thinks Chaos is evil? I disagree. The Imperium is evil. Chaos are those few people brave enough to stand up against an injust, racist society, those who really value the freedom to worship who they want, be led by who they want and do whatever the heck they think they want, within reason.
Edgy post is edgy. I think if we compare the actions of the average servant of the Dark Gods with the average imperial citizen then the Imperium comes off better. Guardsman A is doing it to protect the Imperium, Space Marine A is doing it for the Chapter, blah blah, and the Chaos Space Marine is doing it out of jealousy, a desire for power etc.
We fight the Imperium and commit all of our crimes only because they each and every one of them, even the lowliest human civilian, pledges themselves to protect our greatest enemy, when they come of age. We do give them a choice: if they renounce the False Emperor we let them be. But few do, because that would mean that the evil corpse God would eat their souls...
Automatically Appended Next Post: By the way I'm a follower of Tzeentch not Nurgle...
Automatically Appended Next Post: By the way I'm a follower of Tzeentch not Nurgle...
That's why people that don't worship the Emperor (neutral human worlds that aren't part of the Imperium, plus 99% of all of humanity before the end of the Heresy) have absolutely nothing to fear from Chaos.
Chaos Spawn wrote:Ever noticed how everyone thinks Chaos is evil? I disagree. The Imperium is evil. Chaos are those few people brave enough to stand up against an injust, racist society, those who really value the freedom to worship who they want, be led by who they want and do whatever the heck they think they want, within reason.
... I agree with everything you said, except the last part. 'Within reason'? There is no such limit to Chaos. The closest Chaos gets to respecting limits is 'enlightened self-interest'.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote:Yeah, lets stand up to the injustice and racist society of the Imperial Hierarchy by pillaging, raping, murdering, sacrificing, enslaving and infecting every innocent civillian that had no choice in the way they were brought up.
That sounds totally within reason to me....
Chaos are *Chaotic* Evil, Imperium are Chaotic Neutral, there is still a whole tier between them.
Imperium is Lawful Evil, Chaos is Chaotic Evil. Might call the Imperium Lawful Neutral at a stretch, but they are by no means Chaotic anything.
Chaos Spawn wrote: Ever noticed how everyone thinks Chaos is evil? I disagree. The Imperium is evil. Chaos are those few people brave enough to stand up against an injust, racist society, those who really value the freedom to worship who they want, be led by who they want and do whatever the heck they think they want, within reason.
If they hadn't turned to the Ruinous Powers, sure. I reckon Horus and his bunch could be classified as the "Lesser Evil".
BUT
They turned to the Ruinous Powers, making them more evil than the Imperium. How much more evil are they than the Imperium? That's really up to how you want to quantify it.
My Take on it:
(1) All Chaos Forces that serve the Ruinous Powers are more evil than the Imperium.
(2) The above point should not imply that the Imperium are the good guys, but should imply that they are definitely not as evil as Chaos is.
@Furyou Miko:
I reckon Lawful Evil doesn't quite describe the Imperium properly, but it is probably the best fit for them. Lawful Evil with a a bit of Lawful Neutral thrown in is probably how I'd put it. And I agree with you in the sense that the Imperium is not Chaotic anything.
The fact that one faction consists of deamon worshippers doesn't make the religious extremist / fascist technobararian faction the good guys.
The good guys might be the renegades outside of the empire don't who any of those evil gods.
Don't forget that the emperor demands more sacrifices then most of the gods that we now consider to be evil barbaric gods of the past.
Chaos Spawn wrote: We do give them a choice: if they renounce the False Emperor we let them be.
That's untrue. Chaos does not let new converts be.
[quoteoldzoggy]Don't forget that the emperor demands more sacrifices then most of the gods that we now consider to be evil barbaric gods of the past.
What the Imperium does is generally for the greater good. Sacrificing 1000 Psykers a day to the Golden Throne? Required so that the Imperium can hold itself together and humanity have a chance of survival. The Psykers would likely have to be killed anyway due to being unable to control their powers.
oldzoggy wrote: The fact that one faction consists of deamon worshippers doesn't make the religious extremist / fascist technobararian faction the good guys.
The good guys might be the renegades outside of the empire don't who any of those evil gods.
Don't forget that the emperor demands more sacrifices then most of the gods that we now consider to be evil barbaric gods of the past.
Also, 1000 Psykers a day is less than .0000000001 percent of the population of humans (assuming there are 1 Quadrillion Humans, though there are likely more) in the Imperium. That's a raindrop in the ocean; It's nothing worth mentioning.
Chaos Spawn wrote: Ever noticed how everyone thinks Chaos is evil? I disagree. The Imperium is evil. Chaos are those few people brave enough to stand up against an injust, racist society, those who really value the freedom to worship who they want, be led by who they want and do whatever the heck they think they want, within reason.
Here's something to put a skew on this conversation. I'm actually arguing that the Ruinous Powers themselves are less evil than the False Emperor. And whoever questioned after the real Emperor, well we'll find out once the Crimson Path reaches Terra.
They are not. They are, at best, equally evil, through different means, but there are many examples of Chaos, especially its mortal followers, being evil for evil's sake.
Psienesis wrote: They are not. They are, at best, equally evil, through different means, but there are many examples of Chaos, especially its mortal followers, being evil for evil's sake.
The Night Lords would be a great example of such.
And the followers of the Emperor have not committed worse? They have not annihilated entire planetary systems for the crime of not being human? Even when those systems were peaceful towards them?
This is 40k. The sin (not crime, sin) of being non-human permits total extermination. This galaxy will belong to Mankind and Mankind alone. The Emperor wills it.
This is 40k. The sin (not crime, sin) of being non-human permits total extermination. This galaxy will belong to Mankind and Mankind alone. The Emperor wills it.
This statement reinforces the whole argument of how evil the Imperium and False Emperor are...
A clean death at the hands of orbital bombardment or virus bombing is kind compared to what the Night Lords will do to you.
The Imperium is less evil, because it does not cause unnecessary suffering. Where it kills, it kills cleanly (unless you act against them, in which case it's justified). Imperial torturers are grim-faced and furious.
Chaos is more evil, because it revels in causing suffering. When it kills, it does so in the most gruesome, horrific way possible, often for no better reason than because it enjoys it. Chaos torturers are grinning madly and laughing.
it all depends on the perspective of the person really, the average chaos joe will hate the imperium with all of his spite for making his life so miserable and hopeless and worships chaos to try to get revenge and to get to the top no matter the cost
However the average imperial will hate chaos for the gruesome atrocities it commits
Anyone who seriously thinks the Imperium is more or as evil as Chaos has a pretty twisted view of things. The Night Lords will flay you alive for fun, and the Emperor's Children... well let's not even go there. The Imperium does plenty of evil things but it doesn't exist to do evil. Chaos pretty much does (or what do you think Khorne berserkers do?).
Oh and you also have things like the Iron Warriors feeding their slave workers by grinding the dead ones into nutritional paste. Or the Purge, who only exist to exterminate all life. And comparing the 1000 psykers a day to what the Word Bearers do is ridiculous. I get all warm and fuzzy inside thinking about how nice Chaos is.
EngulfedObject wrote: Anyone who seriously thinks the Imperium is more or as evil as Chaos has a pretty twisted view of things. The Night Lords will flay you alive for fun, and the Emperor's Children... well let's not even go there. The Imperium does plenty of evil things but it doesn't exist to do evil. Chaos pretty much does (or what do you think Khorne berserkers do?).
Oh and you also have things like the Iron Warriors feeding their slave workers by grinding the dead ones into nutritional paste. Or the Purge, who only exist to exterminate all life. And comparing the 1000 psykers a day to what the Word Bearers do is ridiculous. I get all warm and fuzzy inside thinking about how nice Chaos is.
you gotta look at it from the perspective of the average joe if his life on random hive #2342 is so hopeless he will feel justified to fall to chaos to get a taste of freedom
Scorpionov wrote: you gotta look at it from the perspective of the average joe if his life on random hive #2342 is so hopeless he will feel justified to fall to chaos to get a taste of freedom
Only because average joe on random hive #2342 is ignorant of what Chaos is, which is quite possibly an eternity of torment. With the Imperium, the torment ends with death.
Furyou Miko wrote: He does know that - Imperial Dogma is very clear on the fact that deviating from the Ecclesiarchy's path leads to destruction!
actually knowledge of chaos is kept secret for the sheer amount of damage it could do
No, it's not. Knowledge of "The Ruinous Powers" is fairly common - it's in scripture that Horus was an agent of them, after all.
What's secret is the details, such as the ability of daemons to manifest physically, the fact that there are distinct factions among Chaos, and so on.
The fact that Chaos exists, mutates people, and is the source of all human evil in the galaxy is the threat held over the heads of common people by the Ecclesiarchy to get them to behave.
The Imperium is a tyrannical and oppresive regime, that fanatically worships the rotten corpse of a flawed demigod killed as a result of his own incompetence.
Chaos is freedom in its most brutal, unmerciful and savage kind. It's a neccesary evil. In the end, imperials will understand.
Furyou Miko wrote: He does know that - Imperial Dogma is very clear on the fact that deviating from the Ecclesiarchy's path leads to destruction!
actually knowledge of chaos is kept secret for the sheer amount of damage it could do
No, it's not. Knowledge of "The Ruinous Powers" is fairly common - it's in scripture that Horus was an agent of them, after all.
What's secret is the details, such as the ability of daemons to manifest physically, the fact that there are distinct factions among Chaos, and so on.
The fact that Chaos exists, mutates people, and is the source of all human evil in the galaxy is the threat held over the heads of common people by the Ecclesiarchy to get them to behave.
im guessing you have a source for this?
Cause if this is true this the most pants on incompetent policy anyone can come up with whats to stop millions of would be arch heretics from researching the finer teachings of chaos for their own black ends which would cause whole plantes and sectors to be damned
Search up on the first war of Armageddon to see how the imperium deals with taint of chaos...its pretty brutal
The Black Library in general. The Tanith, ordinary Guardsmen, are all familiar with the signs of Chaos.
The fact Mutants are reviled as unclean beings, as shown most clearly in Malleus.
The attitudes and mutterings of the vast civilian cast of the Lords of Mars trilogy.
It's not stupid at all. Trying to pretend there's no such thing would be stupid - its impossible to hide.
It's not that easy to just "research the finer points of evil" anyway. There's no internet to search "hur hur, chaos cults in my area" on. Most people are illiterate, how are you meant to research Chaos when you can't even read?
The Black Library in general. The Tanith, ordinary Guardsmen, are all familiar with the signs of Chaos.
The fact Mutants are reviled as unclean beings, as shown most clearly in Malleus.
The attitudes and mutterings of the vast civilian cast of the Lords of Mars trilogy.
It's not stupid at all. Trying to pretend there's no such thing would be stupid - its impossible to hide.
It's not that easy to just "research the finer points of evil" anyway. There's no internet to search "hur hur, chaos cults in my area" on. Most people are illiterate, how are you meant to research Chaos when you can't even read?
If most people are illiterate (Which may not be true depends on the world) then they are easy to corrupt they could led astray from the emporers light by a new faith or charismatic leader claiming to revere the emporer in better fashion while slowly poisoning their minds to worship chaos these are how chaos cults starts
Why do you think there are so many missionaries and priests travelling the galaxy? Because the only reason that doesn't happen constantly is because there's already a highly charismatic preacher keeping them honest and faithful.
Chaos Cults happen all the time, that's why the Ecclesiarchy is so ready to whip up a mob and hand out the torches and pitchforks at a moment's notice.
but even those missionaries and priests don't know much about chaos if anything at all also they are just as corruptible as everyone else so if they were taught about chaos many would feel repulsed but there is also the one or two canidetes for corruption they could use their influence to get the masses to rise up and cause massive damage to a planet
Also the Brotherhood of Horned Darkness a chaos cult has infiltrated the Ecclesiarchy on more than one occasion
Scorpionov wrote: Cause if this is true this the most pants on incompetent policy anyone can come up with whats to stop millions of would be arch heretics from researching the finer teachings of chaos for their own black ends which would cause whole plantes and sectors to be damned
He did say specific details aren't common knowledge. Inquisitors are very rare, they can't be everywhere and find everything immediately. They must often rely on ordinary people reporting something out-of-place to their local priest or other official, who then sends the report higher up. The Chaos Gods are called "the Ruinous Powers", ordinary citizens know little more than that and during religious functions they are always told to keep away from such things and to report anything suspicious. People are told to watch for certain signs - mutation, praising others than the Emperor and approved saints, magic.
Another example of knowing something but not details: Everyone on a warp-capable ship is told that there are things out there that would want to eat them and if the warning klaxon sounds everyone regardless of rank must pick up a weapon and kill anything that doesn't look human. They might not know exactly what it is but they know they have to fight it.
Scorpionov wrote: Cause if this is true this the most pants on incompetent policy anyone can come up with whats to stop millions of would be arch heretics from researching the finer teachings of chaos for their own black ends which would cause whole plantes and sectors to be damned
He did say specific details aren't common knowledge. Inquisitors are very rare, they can't be everywhere and find everything immediately. They must often rely on ordinary people reporting something out-of-place to their local priest or other official, who then sends the report higher up. The Chaos Gods are called "the Ruinous Powers", ordinary citizens know little more than that and during religious functions they are always told to keep away from such things and to report anything suspicious. People are told to watch for certain signs - mutation, praising others than the Emperor and approved saints, magic.
Another example of knowing something but not details: Everyone on a warp-capable ship is told that there are things out there that would want to eat them and if the warning klaxon sounds everyone regardless of rank must pick up a weapon and kill anything that doesn't look human. They might not know exactly what it is but they know they have to fight it.
That would be far better policy for if the Ecclesiarchy preached about the dangers of chaos as in actually giving it a name instead of just branding as creatures that want to kill you and your family it would take just one muppet who didn't know what he/she was getting her/himself into to damn a planet or sector
This is why chaos is kept a secret from the average citizen the imperium is paranoid cannot trust the average citzen to have knowledge of chaos
ok so what you are saying no matter how low in life on any planet you are, you are free to have knowledge of all powerful, evil deities of unimaginable terror from which no harm could possibly come from having that knowledge
No, I'm saying that no matter what planet you're on, as long as it is subject to the Imperium, you know that there is, out there, a great, horrible, monstrous force that wants to kill your children, rape your husband and eat your cat, an that it wants YOU to help it.
You know that at any time, any of your friends, your neighbours, could fall victim to this evil force, and that the only way to protect yourself and your soul is to report an suspicions to the authorities.
You know that every day that this evil force does not affect you is a gift and blessing from the Emperor.
You know that this force is called The Ruinous Powers of Chaos.
People still don't seem to get what I mean. I'm not only talking about CSM, but all of Chaos, including the Gods.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Chaos in less evil. People talk about the Night Lords. READ THE FLUFF. They ARE a Traitor Legion but they DO NOT worship any individual Chaos God or even the idea of Chaos Undivided, therefore they cannot be classed as Chaos!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furyou Miko wrote: A clean death at the hands of orbital bombardment or virus bombing is kind compared to what the Night Lords will do to you.
The Imperium is less evil, because it does not cause unnecessary suffering. Where it kills, it kills cleanly (unless you act against them, in which case it's justified). Imperial torturers are grim-faced and furious.
Chaos is more evil, because it revels in causing suffering. When it kills, it does so in the most gruesome, horrific way possible, often for no better reason than because it enjoys it. Chaos torturers are grinning madly and laughing.
Death is not the end in the Imperium. Your soul is then tortured by Chaplains before being shipped to Terra and fed to the False Emperor.
Yea, nah brah. The Imperium is evil as a matter of maintaining control and keeping Chaos from destroying everything. Chaos is just trying to destroy everything. Just 'cause. Laying worlds to waste, spreading plagues and disease everywhere possible, killing, torturing, manipulation against your friends and allies, devouring souls, all for no good reason other than it's a good time and a way to beat each other and conquer the galaxy first, or destroy it first.
KharnsRightHand wrote: Yea, nah brah. The Imperium is evil as a matter of maintaining control and keeping Chaos from destroying everything. Chaos is just trying to destroy everything. Just 'cause. Laying worlds to waste, spreading plagues and disease everywhere possible, killing, torturing, manipulation against your friends and allies, devouring souls, all for no good reason other than it's a good time and a way to beat each other and conquer the galaxy first, or destroy it first.
No, it's done for the Gods, who you can't blame because they are animalistic and work on instinct.
You aren't getting it then. The Chaos Gods want to pretty much drown the materiel realm in Chaos. They have their followers kill, maim, burn, and do all sorts of horrible things to increase their power. The Imperium is evil because it has no choice but to do so to ensure Mankind's survival. Chaos and it's followers are evil because they wanted to be.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Yeah, lets stand up to the injustice and racist society of the Imperial Hierarchy by pillaging, raping, murdering, sacrificing, enslaving and infecting every innocent civillian that had no choice in the way they were brought up.
That sounds totally within reason to me....
Chaos are *Chaotic* Evil, Imperium are Chaotic Neutral, there is still a whole tier between them.
Scorpionov wrote: ok so what you are saying no matter how low in life on any planet you are, you are free to have knowledge of all powerful, evil deities of unimaginable terror from which no harm could possibly come from having that knowledge
Your logic is making no sense
Along these lines did peasants not know of the devil etc? or did the church keep that a secret too? All religions need people to be aware of the boogymen otherwise they can't scare people into following as easily.
War Kitten wrote: You aren't getting it then. The Chaos Gods want to pretty much drown the materiel realm in Chaos. They have their followers kill, maim, burn, and do all sorts of horrible things to increase their power. The Imperium is evil because it has no choice but to do so to ensure Mankind's survival. Chaos and it's followers are evil because they wanted to be.
I created this thread and so I do get it. The Chaos Gods do not only create evil. Without Khorne there would be no bravery, honour, glory or valour. Without Tzeentch there would be no change, Magic, hope or knowledge. Without Nurgle there would be no death. And without Slaanesh there would be no pleasure or happiness. Could the Imperium truly claim to give all this as powerfully as Chaos? And could the galaxy go on without all this?
Chaos Spawn wrote: People still don't seem to get what I mean. I'm not only talking about CSM, but all of Chaos, including the Gods.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Chaos in less evil. People talk about the Night Lords. READ THE FLUFF. They ARE a Traitor Legion but they DO NOT worship any individual Chaos God or even the idea of Chaos Undivided, therefore they cannot be classed as Chaos!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furyou Miko wrote: A clean death at the hands of orbital bombardment or virus bombing is kind compared to what the Night Lords will do to you.
The Imperium is less evil, because it does not cause unnecessary suffering. Where it kills, it kills cleanly (unless you act against them, in which case it's justified). Imperial torturers are grim-faced and furious.
Chaos is more evil, because it revels in causing suffering. When it kills, it does so in the most gruesome, horrific way possible, often for no better reason than because it enjoys it. Chaos torturers are grinning madly and laughing.
Death is not the end in the Imperium. Your soul is then tortured by Chaplains before being shipped to Terra and fed to the False Emperor.
I'm not sure what prolific fluff everyone else is reading, all the fluff I've ever read (codex, white dwarf, short stories, etc) has been clear Night Lords are chaos space marines, but online this seems not to be a common perspective.
Could you point me to the source where it is stated that Night Lords aren't chaos marines? I appreciate most of them look down on chaos's most fervent worshippers, but up until now I've taken the studio's word that a space marine doesn't need to be a devout follower of chaos to be considered a chaos space marine.
KharnsRightHand wrote: Yea, nah brah. The Imperium is evil as a matter of maintaining control and keeping Chaos from destroying everything. Chaos is just trying to destroy everything. Just 'cause. Laying worlds to waste, spreading plagues and disease everywhere possible, killing, torturing, manipulation against your friends and allies, devouring souls, all for no good reason other than it's a good time and a way to beat each other and conquer the galaxy first, or destroy it first.
No, it's done for the Gods, who you can't blame because they are animalistic and work on instinct.
Not true in the slightest. The Chaos Gods are fully sentient beings, they know exactly what they're doing and why they're doing it. Tzeentch, for example, couldn't be the master planner he is if he "working on animalistic instinct." The Great game is the Chaos Gods trying to gain power over each other, with huge collateral damage in the form of the material universe to which they couldn't give half a gak if everything were thrown into the same chaos as the Warp; in fact, that would be all the better for them. That's pretty damn evil.
War Kitten wrote: You aren't getting it then. The Chaos Gods want to pretty much drown the materiel realm in Chaos. They have their followers kill, maim, burn, and do all sorts of horrible things to increase their power. The Imperium is evil because it has no choice but to do so to ensure Mankind's survival. Chaos and it's followers are evil because they wanted to be.
I created this thread and so I do get it. The Chaos Gods do not only create evil. Without Khorne there would be no bravery, honour, glory or valour. Without Tzeentch there would be no change, Magic, hope or knowledge. Without Nurgle there would be no death. And without Slaanesh there would be no pleasure or happiness. Could the Imperium truly claim to give all this as powerfully as Chaos? And could the galaxy go on without all this?
Again, no. The Chaos Gods don't provide these things, they just kind of represent them. They were originally formed from the emotions of mortals, so they were actually created because those things you listed already existed. Don't forget that the Eldar had a pleasure-seeking society for millennia before they birthed Slaanesh.
Chaos Spawn wrote: People still don't seem to get what I mean. I'm not only talking about CSM, but all of Chaos, including the Gods.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Chaos in less evil. People talk about the Night Lords. READ THE FLUFF. They ARE a Traitor Legion but they DO NOT worship any individual Chaos God or even the idea of Chaos Undivided, therefore they cannot be classed as Chaos!
Now you're just getting ridiculous. Night Lords suffer from delusions of being renegades and not agents of Chaos, yet they're led by a Daemon Prince and their assault marines worship Chaos itself and turn into possessed Marines. Plus the lot of them suffer from chaotic taint and mutation, endemic to all those who end up an agent of the Chaos Gods. Chaos doesn't ask if you want to serve their will, you don't need to worship it. They just decide you're a pawn they want to move.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furyou Miko wrote: A clean death at the hands of orbital bombardment or virus bombing is kind compared to what the Night Lords will do to you.
The Imperium is less evil, because it does not cause unnecessary suffering. Where it kills, it kills cleanly (unless you act against them, in which case it's justified). Imperial torturers are grim-faced and furious.
Chaos is more evil, because it revels in causing suffering. When it kills, it does so in the most gruesome, horrific way possible, often for no better reason than because it enjoys it. Chaos torturers are grinning madly and laughing.
Death is not the end in the Imperium. Your soul is then tortured by Chaplains before being shipped to Terra and fed to the False Emperor.
KharnsRightHand wrote: Yea, nah brah. The Imperium is evil as a matter of maintaining control and keeping Chaos from destroying everything. Chaos is just trying to destroy everything. Just 'cause. Laying worlds to waste, spreading plagues and disease everywhere possible, killing, torturing, manipulation against your friends and allies, devouring souls, all for no good reason other than it's a good time and a way to beat each other and conquer the galaxy first, or destroy it first.
No, it's done for the Gods, who you can't blame because they are animalistic and work on instinct.
No they aren't. The Chaos Gods are completely cognitive, sentient beings fully aware of their actions and the suffering they cause. FFS we see Tzeentch actually holding a conversation with this Court in the final Ahriman book.
War Kitten wrote: You aren't getting it then. The Chaos Gods want to pretty much drown the materiel realm in Chaos. They have their followers kill, maim, burn, and do all sorts of horrible things to increase their power. The Imperium is evil because it has no choice but to do so to ensure Mankind's survival. Chaos and it's followers are evil because they wanted to be.
I created this thread and so I do get it. The Chaos Gods do not only create evil. Without Khorne there would be no bravery, honour, glory or valour. Without Tzeentch there would be no change, Magic, hope or knowledge. Without Nurgle there would be no death. And without Slaanesh there would be no pleasure or happiness. Could the Imperium truly claim to give all this as powerfully as Chaos? And could the galaxy go on without all this?
...
Stop watching the fething Alfa Legion videos, it's purely fanfiction. The Chaos Gods don't create positive emotions, they are the product of emotion. There was plenty of happiness and pleasure prior to the Fall, indeed there probably was more considering the Eldar weren't having their souls raped for eternity and their gods devoured by She Who Thirsts. The Chaos Gods don't cause gak besides suffering, they're a literal cancer upon reality formed from the nightmares of life.
The Black Library in general. The Tanith, ordinary Guardsmen, are all familiar with the signs of Chaos.
The fact Mutants are reviled as unclean beings, as shown most clearly in Malleus.
The attitudes and mutterings of the vast civilian cast of the Lords of Mars trilogy.
It's not stupid at all. Trying to pretend there's no such thing would be stupid - its impossible to hide.
It's not that easy to just "research the finer points of evil" anyway. There's no internet to search "hur hur, chaos cults in my area" on. Most people are illiterate, how are you meant to research Chaos when you can't even read?
If most people are illiterate (Which may not be true depends on the world) then they are easy to corrupt they could led astray from the emporers light by a new faith or charismatic leader claiming to revere the emporer in better fashion while slowly poisoning their minds to worship chaos these are how chaos cults starts
Which happens... except when the Arbites, the Inquisition (specifically, the Ordo Hereticus), the Ecclesiarchy, or the Sisters of Battle happen to notice. All of these organizations are the vanguard against such things... but, make no mistake, such things as that do happen in the Imperium. The Ecclesiarchy regularly launches Wars of Faith against other Imperial worlds when it is viewed that the teachings of the Imperial Cult on that world have strayed too far from the proper course.
Chaos Spawn wrote: People still don't seem to get what I mean. I'm not only talking about CSM, but all of Chaos, including the Gods.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Chaos in less evil. People talk about the Night Lords. READ THE FLUFF. They ARE a Traitor Legion but they DO NOT worship any individual Chaos God or even the idea of Chaos Undivided, therefore they cannot be classed as Chaos!
Now you're just getting ridiculous. Night Lords suffer from delusions of being renegades and not agents of Chaos, yet they're led by a Daemon Prince and their assault marines worship Chaos itself and turn into possessed Marines. Plus the lot of them suffer from chaotic taint and mutation, endemic to all those who end up an agent of the Chaos Gods. Chaos doesn't ask if you want to serve their will, you don't need to worship it. They just decide you're a pawn they want to move.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furyou Miko wrote: A clean death at the hands of orbital bombardment or virus bombing is kind compared to what the Night Lords will do to you.
The Imperium is less evil, because it does not cause unnecessary suffering. Where it kills, it kills cleanly (unless you act against them, in which case it's justified). Imperial torturers are grim-faced and furious.
Chaos is more evil, because it revels in causing suffering. When it kills, it does so in the most gruesome, horrific way possible, often for no better reason than because it enjoys it. Chaos torturers are grinning madly and laughing.
Death is not the end in the Imperium. Your soul is then tortured by Chaplains before being shipped to Terra and fed to the False Emperor.
And now you're just trolling. i.e I have no answer.
KharnsRightHand wrote: Yea, nah brah. The Imperium is evil as a matter of maintaining control and keeping Chaos from destroying everything. Chaos is just trying to destroy everything. Just 'cause. Laying worlds to waste, spreading plagues and disease everywhere possible, killing, torturing, manipulation against your friends and allies, devouring souls, all for no good reason other than it's a good time and a way to beat each other and conquer the galaxy first, or destroy it first.
No, it's done for the Gods, who you can't blame because they are animalistic and work on instinct.
No they aren't. The Chaos Gods are completely cognitive, sentient beings fully aware of their actions and the suffering they cause. FFS we see Tzeentch actually holding a conversation with this Court in the final Ahriman book.
War Kitten wrote: You aren't getting it then. The Chaos Gods want to pretty much drown the materiel realm in Chaos. They have their followers kill, maim, burn, and do all sorts of horrible things to increase their power. The Imperium is evil because it has no choice but to do so to ensure Mankind's survival. Chaos and it's followers are evil because they wanted to be.
I created this thread and so I do get it. The Chaos Gods do not only create evil. Without Khorne there would be no bravery, honour, glory or valour. Without Tzeentch there would be no change, Magic, hope or knowledge. Without Nurgle there would be no death. And without Slaanesh there would be no pleasure or happiness. Could the Imperium truly claim to give all this as powerfully as Chaos? And could the galaxy go on without all this?
...
Stop watching the fething Alfa Legion videos, it's purely fanfiction. The Chaos Gods don't create positive emotions, they are the product of emotion. There was plenty of happiness and pleasure prior to the Fall, indeed there probably was more considering the Eldar weren't having their souls raped for eternity and their gods devoured by She Who Thirsts. The Chaos Gods don't cause gak besides suffering, they're a literal cancer upon reality formed from the nightmares of life.
By all of this logic, Chaos cannot possibly be considered evil because they simply represent human evil, information which case the Imperium is evils any Chaos does not exist. Also, if the Night Lords are Chaos, which I won't oppose for now, so what? I never saw them attempt to eradicate a species, oily a single planet.
Chaos Spawn wrote: People still don't seem to get what I mean. I'm not only talking about CSM, but all of Chaos, including the Gods.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Chaos in less evil. People talk about the Night Lords. READ THE FLUFF. They ARE a Traitor Legion but they DO NOT worship any individual Chaos God or even the idea of Chaos Undivided, therefore they cannot be classed as Chaos!
Now you're just getting ridiculous. Night Lords suffer from delusions of being renegades and not agents of Chaos, yet they're led by a Daemon Prince and their assault marines worship Chaos itself and turn into possessed Marines. Plus the lot of them suffer from chaotic taint and mutation, endemic to all those who end up an agent of the Chaos Gods. Chaos doesn't ask if you want to serve their will, you don't need to worship it. They just decide you're a pawn they want to move.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furyou Miko wrote: A clean death at the hands of orbital bombardment or virus bombing is kind compared to what the Night Lords will do to you.
The Imperium is less evil, because it does not cause unnecessary suffering. Where it kills, it kills cleanly (unless you act against them, in which case it's justified). Imperial torturers are grim-faced and furious.
Chaos is more evil, because it revels in causing suffering. When it kills, it does so in the most gruesome, horrific way possible, often for no better reason than because it enjoys it. Chaos torturers are grinning madly and laughing.
Death is not the end in the Imperium. Your soul is then tortured by Chaplains before being shipped to Terra and fed to the False Emperor.
KharnsRightHand wrote: Yea, nah brah. The Imperium is evil as a matter of maintaining control and keeping Chaos from destroying everything. Chaos is just trying to destroy everything. Just 'cause. Laying worlds to waste, spreading plagues and disease everywhere possible, killing, torturing, manipulation against your friends and allies, devouring souls, all for no good reason other than it's a good time and a way to beat each other and conquer the galaxy first, or destroy it first.
No, it's done for the Gods, who you can't blame because they are animalistic and work on instinct.
No they aren't. The Chaos Gods are completely cognitive, sentient beings fully aware of their actions and the suffering they cause. FFS we see Tzeentch actually holding a conversation with this Court in the final Ahriman book.
War Kitten wrote: You aren't getting it then. The Chaos Gods want to pretty much drown the materiel realm in Chaos. They have their followers kill, maim, burn, and do all sorts of horrible things to increase their power. The Imperium is evil because it has no choice but to do so to ensure Mankind's survival. Chaos and it's followers are evil because they wanted to be.
I created this thread and so I do get it. The Chaos Gods do not only create evil. Without Khorne there would be no bravery, honour, glory or valour. Without Tzeentch there would be no change, Magic, hope or knowledge. Without Nurgle there would be no death. And without Slaanesh there would be no pleasure or happiness. Could the Imperium truly claim to give all this as powerfully as Chaos? And could the galaxy go on without all this?
...
Stop watching the fething Alfa Legion videos, it's purely fanfiction. The Chaos Gods don't create positive emotions, they are the product of emotion. There was plenty of happiness and pleasure prior to the Fall, indeed there probably was more considering the Eldar weren't having their souls raped for eternity and their gods devoured by She Who Thirsts. The Chaos Gods don't cause gak besides suffering, they're a literal cancer upon reality formed from the nightmares of life.
By all of this logic, Chaos cannot possibly be considered evil because they simply represent human evil, in which case the Imperium is evil and Chaos does not exist. Also, if the Night Lords are Chaos, which I won't oppose for now, so what? I never saw them attempt to eradicate a species, only a single planet.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Yeah, lets stand up to the injustice and racist society of the Imperial Hierarchy by pillaging, raping, murdering, sacrificing, enslaving and infecting every innocent civillian that had no choice in the way they were brought up.
It worked for most of human history, why not in 40k?
Chaos is not evil. It is a force of nature. The IOM is needfully evil.
By all of this logic, Chaos cannot possibly be considered evil because they simply represent human evil, in which case the Imperium is evil and Chaos does not exist. Also, if the Night Lords are Chaos, which I won't oppose for now, so what? I never saw them attempt to eradicate a species, only a single planet.
No, by that logic, Chaos is not evil because it has no choice in the matter. It is a reflection of what sentient beings do.
curran12 wrote: Nah. Chaos is just another flavor of evil. The Imperium is also evil, but don't delude yourself into thinking there are 'good guys' out there in 40k.
Tau seem relatively "good". I'm really out of the loop with fluff though so don't hold me to that
EngulfedObject wrote: Anyone who seriously thinks the Imperium is more or as evil as Chaos has a pretty twisted view of things. The Night Lords will flay you alive for fun, and the Emperor's Children... well let's not even go there. The Imperium does plenty of evil things but it doesn't exist to do evil. Chaos pretty much does (or what do you think Khorne berserkers do?).
Oh and you also have things like the Iron Warriors feeding their slave workers by grinding the dead ones into nutritional paste. Or the Purge, who only exist to exterminate all life. And comparing the 1000 psykers a day to what the Word Bearers do is ridiculous. I get all warm and fuzzy inside thinking about how nice Chaos is.
Yo, where'd you read that?? That Iron Warriors worker paste is freaky stuff, man....
curran12 wrote: Nah. Chaos is just another flavor of evil. The Imperium is also evil, but don't delude yourself into thinking there are 'good guys' out there in 40k.
Tau seem relatively "good". I'm really out of the loop with fluff though so don't hold me to that
While Tau are one of the more "relatively" good factions, if you read into their fluff there are some very, very dark implications. If I remember right, Mind Control, certain species being treated as second class citizens, and other things. It's just not as obviously and in your face grim dark like most of the other factions are. I might be wrong though.
Ok, people. there seems to be a serious disconnect between the reality of 40k and what some people think it should be instead. I'm sure somebody here has heard of Machiavelli. He was a Florentine diplomat that wrote "The Prince", and in it he says some pretty real stuff. He basically says "Great evil must be done to preserve the greater good". To put things in perspective, he lived in a world where his small Republic was assaulted constantly and held hostage by bigger forces- the French took gak over, the Germans threatened, the Pope raged, and the other Italians were little pricks. There was a real need for a dude to get his hands dirty.
The main reason why Florence wasn't able to be a major player was because of how leaders behaved. Most were idealistic fools that believed in morals and kindness and other unnecessary junk. They would be indecisive, afraid to offend or act, and preferred to be "good" and "moral" rather than do what had to be done. So Machiavelli took one look at them and saw that a different leader needed to rise.
This is where the Imperium steps in. Just like Renaissance Florence, the Imperium is assailed on all sides by enemies- Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, Chaos, Dark Eldar, etc. These enemies cannot be reasoned with. They cannot be talked to. It's like... Orks can be bought off, they can. You can bribe them to leave you alone, but only if you give them weapons. And inevitably, those weapons will be turned against you in a short time. So in the end, the only options are to fight or die against these monsters.
Machiavelli's main idea is basically that if you're in charge, you have a responsibility and duty to your people- if you're in charge, you'd better be ready and willing to commit some pretty atrocious acts to protect them. Because if you don't, the forces of Chaos will corrupt your people. A rogue psycher can nuke an entire city. A planet that isn't cleansed of the Ork spores could see an entire system fall under a future Waaagh. The threats are infinite and your people are not expendable. There's another thing he said- you can't be a saint and a ruler. It's one or the other. Because to rule a group of people in tumultuous times means you're gonna have to be willing to commit some pretty evil acts in the sake of the greater good.
So anyways, that's my point. The Imperium does things because it has to. If it doesn't, it'll get swallowed up like Florence. Unfortunately for the Imperium, Florence only suffered a few humiliations, an occupation, and a couple of close shaves with complete bankruptcy. The Imperium risks absolute death. So yeah, the Imperium is evil because it has to, so feth off with that comparison to Chaos. Chaos does stuff because it can, not because it has to. Machiavelli said that being TOO evil was also a bad thing. A balance has to emerge, and Chaos is anything but balanced. They're just looking out to destroy and rape and burn. The Imperium wants you to live.
Essentially what urbanknight4 said with his anecdote, but his explanation explains why they're needfully evil.
@ curran12, BaconUprising & War Kitten:
It's all a matter of degrees. Nobody is good in 40K. But relative to the Dark Eldar, the Eldar and Exodites are good; and in relation to the thread topic, the IoM is relatively good compared to Chaos. But the simple fact remains that, by necessity brought on by the nature of the 40K universe, everyone is evil.
Mudrat wrote: The Iron Warriors using their slaves as food comes from "The Siege of Castellax", one of the Space Marine battle novels. It's alright in my opinion.
Brootal, dood
I really need to get started reading the books. It's just that thanks to uni I haven't had much time (or inclination to, after reading Space Marine)
All the factions are evil to differing extents, there can be enormous differences in gradients of evil between certain factions, no one faction can justify its evil purely as 'necessity' since they all indulge in far more than what is 'necessary' in numerous documented cases throughout the fluff where they do actions which are evil or immoral but could easily have been removed or altered with better consequences. Attempting to justify a faction as being the 'good guy' of the setting and arguing that it is justified in all its actions misses the point, in my opinion, of 40k considerably. Ultimately though everyone is differing levels of evil.
Anemone wrote: All the factions are evil to differing extents, there can be enormous differences in gradients of evil between certain factions, no one faction can justify its evil purely as 'necessity' since they all indulge in far more than what is 'necessary' in numerous documented cases throughout the fluff where they do actions which are evil or immoral but could easily have been removed or altered with better consequences. Attempting to justify a faction as being the 'good guy' of the setting and arguing that it is justified in all its actions misses the point, in my opinion, of 40k considerably. Ultimately though everyone is differing levels of evil.
Oh, well, to be honest I didn't really feel like joining in the conversation in nuance, more just making the point that everyone's bad in the setting.
However if you want a matter of degree, and more specifically I assume an answer to your question, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed because, though they are also of course a horrid and evil organization which ought to be replaced by something far better, Chaos is definitively, in my opinion, more evil than the Imperium.
I'll grant that I think Chaos could have been done better, and more morally ambiguous, if it was treated as more of a force of nature with no inherent moral qualities (Change need not always be for the worse, Life need not only end and such) but the fluff has overwhelmingly chosen to depict the Chaos Gods as entities with very anthropomorphic desires to kill and torture people. I can't remember the last time I read Fluff in which Tzeentch had nothing akin to a goal, simply represented the observable phenomenon of change, and thus adherents to it used their powers for something benign like reformation of a decayed institution or, quite honestly, simply pointless change like they grew taller or forgot something or the near endless Changes occurring every millisecond even as you read this single word. Change is, after all, a ridiculously ENORMOUS purview.
But, to my knowledge, virtually every plot is about killing, torturing, damning or some combination of the three. Not that I'm an expert on Daemon Fluff. I would prefer a setting in which they were far more neutral forces capable of being channelled for different purposes by whosoever wishes to with the great danger they pose being that use of the power is inherently dangerous to the operation of reality but, to my knowledge, the Four and most of their servants have shown a very strong desire to only ever do harm to anyone. For example I know of no Chaos Forces who are anymore friendly to Aliens now that they are free of the Imperium's mandated xenophobia. Nor, for example, do they tragically treat commoners much better since every Chaos group I've read about tends to simply be a brutal martial aristocracy practising some form of slavery. Even that time when millions flocked to Abaddon because they thought he'd help them get a better life he simply had them all instantly enslaved and sent to horrible conditions when one would think, from a pragmatic point of view, encouraging dissent by presenting yourself as a far more desirable hegemon to live under would have helped Abaddon's cause greatly. It is, after all, something that has occurred throughout human history.
Unfortunately the truth is that GW doesn't play Chaos followers as very different, ideologically, to the Imperium beyond often owing allegiance to a different higher power (Chaos Gods as opposed to the Emperor) or choosing to hold allegiance to themselves only instead. I agree Chaos could have been done more interesting, could have been done by making it that Chaos followers don't need to simply emulate Imperium style settings with Daemons and pointless death thrown in, but I've not personally encountered in the Fluff that Chaos followers ever take advantage of their ideological freedom to form a new ideology which isn't simply more 'kill' and 'torture' and 'might makes right' in some form. Not that you'd imagine a Tzeentch or Nurgle group of followers should even be primarily interested in Combat but, hey, that's what we get for having a War Game, it wouldn't be interesting to have extensive information of groups not primarily devoted to or associated with war.
To be clear though this does not reduce the immorality or evil of other factions which wish to wipe out all life, innocent or not, threatening or not from the galaxy but them; the Tyranids or Imperium (I remember in the newest Fluff that Necron no longer require extinction, becoming a tributary can ensure survival since Imotekh is mentioned as having several Alien Empires as his tributaries) or of groups with explicit evil goals such as Dark Eldar or even of the less evil but still practising Immoral actions of groups such as the Craftworld Eldar or Tau Empire. After all if Daemons win then technically the race of 'Daemons' will be secure and not need fearing destruction or suffering which is a similar justification as used by the Imperium. In that regard the two have one interesting mirror in that both simply desire the elimination of everything but themselves in order to be safe. No, I apologize, that's not fair. Chaos has made clear in 40k it does not want life to end, it requires humans and aliens to exist and desires it That makes calling this more difficult since Chaos desires other life forms but for the express purpose of feeding on them whereas the Imperium wishes to destroy anything which does not conform to its ideological view.
Nor should it stop a player, who wishes too, crafting a faction for themselves within the settings (Daemon or Chaos Follower) who need be evil. If someone wants to create their own force within the setting of Chaos Daemons or Followers who do represent something morally positive or neutral they are free to do so, its their privilege within this accessible fictional work. It is often the most enjoyable part, to me, of the process of army creation. Ultimately I'd hold this point as most important. I've become disenchanted with most 'moral' discussions about 40k.
EDIT: And, to be absolutely clear, I do think my answers are far from absolute on this murky topic, due to the nature of 40k they'll most likely change as evidence changes, and on this matter would rather stay my judgement. What I wrote above is, is pushed at the moment to make a call what I'd say, but my official answer would be that though I believe the Chaos Gods, as shown so far, are definitively more evil than the Imperium (or, if one subscribes to the belief that they cannot act except as they must then they are amoral entities and cannot be morally judged, akin to animals, but if they cause harm they must still be stopped) but that for followers of Chaos this need not necessarily be the case. Since there is no homogenous centralized hegemon of Chaos Followers I cannot compare them as a group to the Imperium and would have to compare individual empires and polities to the Imperium. In this case I would say that, compared to the Followers of Chaos, I'd assume (I have little evidence so mostly this is my own extrapolation) that they can run the gamut from being far worse than the Imperium to being far better than the Imperium. Ultimately though I'll stick by answering that there are no strict 'good guys' within the setting.
Ok,
Just one thing. Tyranids are animals and do not have a conscience and so should not be used as an example in moral debates.
But still, thanks. I think here is an answer that can satisfy every party, even those few weird people who voted that neither were evil.
Chaos Spawn wrote: Tyranids are animals and do not have a conscience and so should not be used as an example in moral debates.
Generally, yes. But just because they have no conscience (and thus no set of morals) doesn't mean that their actions can't be used as examples of what is morally right or wrong, but that's a whole other ball game and way off topic. So the Tyranids still can be used in these examples, but because of the aforementioned point, they are probably not be the best examples to use.
Chaos Spawn wrote: ...[there are a] few weird people who voted that neither were evil.
I agree (sort of). Honestly, I can see people getting away with the fact that one is just as evil as the other (at a bit of a stretch) or that Chaos is definitely more evil that the IoM, but I'm not gonna lie: I find it rather unusual that people would vote for the other two options ('Chaos is Less Evil than the IoM', and 'Niether is Evil') for any reason other than for kicks.
Chaos Spawn wrote: Ok,
Just one thing. Tyranids are animals and do not have a conscience and so should not be used as an example in moral debates.
But still, thanks. I think here is an answer that can satisfy every party, even those few weird people who voted that neither were evil.
In one of the Valedor stories (one set in space) the Hive Mind is said to feel a great hatred for the lead Farseer which implies sapience which would suggest it can be judged in moral terms.
True, I remember that, it was said in Wraithflight where the Hive Mind was described as having a personal vendetta against the Spiritseer who played a role in stopping it and who seeks the Tears of Morai-Heg. It is, to be knowledge, the only instance of the Hive Mind being treated as such a entity. Since the Fluff of 40k is unlikely to ever be rigorously internally consistent problems like this do emerge in discussing the Fluff. My personal take on it is, until the evidence becomes more overwhelming, to for now go with the assumption that Tyranid are more akin to animals and thus cannot be morally held accountable. That being said, to be clear, since evidence now exists to point in the other direction; Wraithflight, I would also not call someone choosing to conceive of them as being agents possessed of potential moral or immoral states incorrect to refer to them as such. They can be interpreted in both ways and, until a definitive answer is produced as to how they operate (if a definitive answer is ever produced) I think in this dimension it is largely up to the individual interpretation of the reader/player.
Anemone wrote: True, I remember that, it was said in Wraithflight where the Hive Mind was described as having a personal vendetta against the Spiritseer who played a role in stopping it and who seeks the Tears of Morai-Heg. It is, to be knowledge, the only instance of the Hive Mind being treated as such a entity. Since the Fluff of 40k is unlikely to ever be rigorously internally consistent problems like this do emerge in discussing the Fluff. My personal take on it is, until the evidence becomes more overwhelming, to for now go with the assumption that Tyranid are more akin to animals and thus cannot be morally held accountable.
The Hive Mind was often depicted as very intelligent. Not sure if such a level of intelligence automatically requires a sense of morality of some sort.
Ubl1k wrote:Chaos is bettererer than silly imperial cowards hiding behind their corpse God
Essentially what urbanknight4 said with his anecdote, but his explanation explains why they're needfully evil.
@ curran12, BaconUprising & War Kitten:
It's all a matter of degrees. Nobody is good in 40K. But relative to the Dark Eldar, the Eldar and Exodites are good; and in relation to the thread topic, the IoM is relatively good compared to Chaos. But the simple fact remains that, by necessity brought on by the nature of the 40K universe, everyone is evil.
Speak for yourself heretic, I'm as pure as a newly baptised baby *chastising look*
Essentially what urbanknight4 said with his anecdote, but his explanation explains why they're needfully evil.
@ curran12, BaconUprising & War Kitten:
It's all a matter of degrees. Nobody is good in 40K. But relative to the Dark Eldar, the Eldar and Exodites are good; and in relation to the thread topic, the IoM is relatively good compared to Chaos. But the simple fact remains that, by necessity brought on by the nature of the 40K universe, everyone is evil.
Speak for yourself heretic, I'm as pure as a newly baptised baby *chastising look*
To be fair, Logan Griminir seems like a pretty all round good guy. What with the whole Armageddon 1 debacle vs the Iquisition
Chaos Spawn wrote: Tyranids are animals and do not have a conscience and so should not be used as an example in moral debates.
Generally, yes. But just because they have no conscience (and thus no set of morals) doesn't mean that their actions can't be used as examples of what is morally right or wrong, but that's a whole other ball game and way off topic. So the Tyranids still can be used in these examples, but because of the aforementioned point, they are probably not be the best examples to use.
Chaos Spawn wrote: ...[there are a] few weird people who voted that neither were evil.
I agree (sort of). Honestly, I can see people getting away with the fact that one is just as evil as the other (at a bit of a stretch) or that Chaos is definitely more evil that the IoM, but I'm not gonna lie: I find it rather unusual that people would vote for the other two options ('Chaos is Less Evil than the IoM', and 'Niether is Evil') for any reason other than for kicks.
I voted that neither are evil, because neither are evil. The IOM is a product of its situation. Exterminatus? Had to; Chaos. Executions? Had to; must hold the line.
Chaos is a metaphysical reflection of the material universe, like some kind of galactic exposition. The sentient beings within have to perpetuate their actions in order to survive. Khorne needs war, Nurgle needs disease. It has no choice, and thus cannot be evil. Amoral, however...
And theres a case to be made for Chaos having Orange and Blue morality.
Essentially what urbanknight4 said with his anecdote, but his explanation explains why they're needfully evil.
@ curran12, BaconUprising & War Kitten:
It's all a matter of degrees. Nobody is good in 40K. But relative to the Dark Eldar, the Eldar and Exodites are good; and in relation to the thread topic, the IoM is relatively good compared to Chaos. But the simple fact remains that, by necessity brought on by the nature of the 40K universe, everyone is evil.
Speak for yourself heretic, I'm as pure as a newly baptised baby *chastising look*
To be fair, Logan Griminir seems like a pretty all round good guy. What with the whole Armageddon 1 debacle vs the Iquisition
A pretty good all round guy who will happily let a billion die to save his "bros" who could spread Chaos taint. And who lets his beef with the Inquisition kill far more than the original purges would.
Cowering? We are not cowering! You imprisoned us for the crime of believing your leader to be nothing more than a fascist dictator. We do not hide, but rather wait until we amass the might to escape! Then we will have our vengeance! Death to the False Emperor!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
So say those cowering in the Eye of Terror.
Cowering? We are not cowering! You imprisoned us for the crime of believing your leader to be nothing more than a fascist dictator. We do not hide, but rather wait until we amass the might to escape! Then we will have our vengeance! Death to the False Emperor!
Essentially what urbanknight4 said with his anecdote, but his explanation explains why they're needfully evil.
@ curran12, BaconUprising & War Kitten:
It's all a matter of degrees. Nobody is good in 40K. But relative to the Dark Eldar, the Eldar and Exodites are good; and in relation to the thread topic, the IoM is relatively good compared to Chaos. But the simple fact remains that, by necessity brought on by the nature of the 40K universe, everyone is evil.
Speak for yourself heretic, I'm as pure as a newly baptised baby *chastising look*
To be fair, Logan Griminir seems like a pretty all round good guy. What with the whole Armageddon 1 debacle vs the Iquisition
A pretty good all round guy who will happily let a billion die to save his "bros" who could spread Chaos taint. And who lets his beef with the Inquisition kill far more than the original purges would.
"Good all round guy" right?
A fair point but my response was tounge in cheek. Nobody in the 40k setting can really be called a "good guy", even 'innocent' imperial citizens are propergating the brutal regime by accepting living under it. I just liked the overall story of Grimir standing up to the tyrannical inquisition
A pretty good all round guy who will happily let a billion die to save his "bros" who could spread Chaos taint. And who lets his beef with the Inquisition kill far more than the original purges would.
"Good all round guy" right?
I really hope it gets mentioned somewhere that some of the Guardsmen saved do turn.
Chaos Spawn wrote:Cowering? We are not cowering! You imprisoned us for the crime of believing your leader to be nothing more than a fascist dictator. We do not hide, but rather wait until we amass the might to escape! Then we will have our vengeance! Death to the False Emperor!
More the crime of waging war against the Emperor, killing trillions and almost giving over humanity to the whims of the Ruinous Powers.
No. Chaos is not the good guys. They are not 'freedom fighters'. They merely want to replace the existing tyranny (which they helped create) with a different tyranny - the tyranny of chaos, disorder, anarchy, murder, rape, filth, disease and social Darwinism (strong devour the weak).
This kind of thinking is very much the kind of rationale terrorists use in the real world to justify their horrific acts, with much the same result. Only the powers that be in the real world are far less oppressive than the totalitarian IOM.
A fair point but my response was tounge in cheek. Nobody in the 40k setting can really be called a "good guy", even 'innocent' imperial citizens are propergating the brutal regime by accepting living under it. I just liked the overall story of Grimir standing up to the tyrannical inquisition
Yeah, and what a noble stand he made. I mean, he showed the Inquisition how to kill MORE people, put MORE in danger for LESS gain!
What a hero that Grimnar is, right?
His whole claim was "they are killing innocents", so his protest dooms many, many more innocents to death. As much as you want to drape Logan with praise for standing up to the Inquisition, it was not out of nobility. He did it for pride, and would have escalated it to consume more lives to assuage his ego.
LethalShade wrote: Anyone fething with the Inquisition is, if not a good guy, a badass.
It's easy to screw with the inquisition when you're using the lives of Guardsmen and civilians to do it. Easy to gamble when it ain't your money you're betting, so to speak.
curran12 wrote: Yeah, and what a noble stand he made. I mean, he showed the Inquisition how to kill MORE people, put MORE in danger for LESS gain!
What a hero that Grimnar is, right?
His whole claim was "they are killing innocents", so his protest dooms many, many more innocents to death. As much as you want to drape Logan with praise for standing up to the Inquisition, it was not out of nobility. He did it for pride, and would have escalated it to consume more lives to assuage his ego.
I doubt Grimnar realized the lengths the Inquisition would go to prevent IG troop transports from escaping, going full-on exterminatus against several planets... which turned out to be pointless anyway as they left the job unfinished. He also showed considerable restraint in the beginning (not returning fire when fired upon), only turning to violence after the Inquisition escalated matters.
And to be fair, it was the Inquisition murdering innocent civilians and IG troops, not Grimnar. The whole incident is pretty dumb anyway as IG troops are aware of Chaos (perhaps not daemon primarchs but how would they really know the difference anyway?).
A fair point but my response was tounge in cheek. Nobody in the 40k setting can really be called a "good guy", even 'innocent' imperial citizens are propergating the brutal regime by accepting living under it. I just liked the overall story of Grimir standing up to the tyrannical inquisition
Yeah, and what a noble stand he made. I mean, he showed the Inquisition how to kill MORE people, put MORE in danger for LESS gain!
What a hero that Grimnar is, right?
His whole claim was "they are killing innocents", so his protest dooms many, many more innocents to death. As much as you want to drape Logan with praise for standing up to the Inquisition, it was not out of nobility. He did it for pride, and would have escalated it to consume more lives to assuage his ego.
Phew, aggressive responses dude. I interpreted it as noble, maybe I'm wrong who knows. I'm not a fan of the inquisition
EngulfedObject wrote: I doubt Grimnar realized the lengths the Inquisition would go to prevent IG troop transports from escaping, going full-on exterminatus against several planets... which turned out to be pointless anyway as they left the job unfinished. He also showed considerable restraint in the beginning (not returning fire when fired upon), only turning to violence after the Inquisition escalated matters.
And to be fair, it was the Inquisition murdering innocent civilians and IG troops, not Grimnar. The whole incident is pretty dumb anyway as IG troops are aware of Chaos (perhaps not daemon primarchs but how would they really know the difference anyway?).
Really? "Grimnar was a good guy because he was, after several hundred years as a war leader of the Imperium, too thick to know what the Inquisition do for a living."
EngulfedObject wrote: I doubt Grimnar realized the lengths the Inquisition would go to prevent IG troop transports from escaping, going full-on exterminatus against several planets... which turned out to be pointless anyway as they left the job unfinished. He also showed considerable restraint in the beginning (not returning fire when fired upon), only turning to violence after the Inquisition escalated matters.
And to be fair, it was the Inquisition murdering innocent civilians and IG troops, not Grimnar. The whole incident is pretty dumb anyway as IG troops are aware of Chaos (perhaps not daemon primarchs but how would they really know the difference anyway?).
Really? "Grimnar was a good guy because he was, after several hundred years as a war leader of the Imperium, too thick to know what the Inquisition do for a living."
That's your argument?
Don't go putting words in my mouth. I'm simply saying Grimnar probably didn't realize the Inquisition would exterminatus several planets over a few troop transports carrying IG that happened to fight Chaos, since the average citizen is well aware of the existence of Chaos (as you argued in this same thread) and IG regularly fight Chaos.
Where did I say he was a good guy? Implying the Inquisition was simply doing what was necessary and Grimnar is to blame is a rather flawed argument, seeing how the IG transports that escaped didn't lead to an outbreak of Chaos corruption.
If it's about the secret existence of Chapter "666" then the whole incident becomes even dumber as IG would just think they are Space Marines.
Oh and I'll get back to you on the Tau script looks like Necron script (it doesn't) thing when I have the time.
If it's about the secret existence of Chapter "666" then the whole incident becomes even dumber as IG would just think they are Space Marines.
To be fair, when talking about GK, it's not about what the humans know.
It's about what secrets an agent of Chaos could cull from the simple guardmans memories.
Mantorok wrote: To be fair, when talking about GK, it's not about what the humans know.
It's about what secrets an agent of Chaos could cull from the simple guardmans memories.
What secrets? Shiny weapons? Psyker powers? Did the entire population of Armageddon stand by to watch the Grey Knights fight Angron?
I haven't read The Emperor's Gift so maybe there are details in there to make the purges justifiable. Otherwise the whole thing is still pretty dumb imo. Kill IG and civilians because they witnessed magical Chapter "666" in action - "one hundred and nine" terminators, banishing Angron for "hundred years and a day," with "only thirteen" surviving - reads like bad fan fic.
Mantorok wrote: To be fair, when talking about GK, it's not about what the humans know.
It's about what secrets an agent of Chaos could cull from the simple guardmans memories.
What secrets? Shiny weapons? Psyker powers? Did the entire population of Armageddon stand by to watch the Grey Knights fight Angron?
I haven't read The Emperor's Gift so maybe there are details in there to make the purges justifiable. Otherwise the whole thing is still pretty dumb imo. Kill IG and civilians because they witnessed magical Chapter "666" in action - "one hundred and nine" terminators, banishing Angron for "hundred years and a day," with "only thirteen" surviving - reads like bad fan fic.
Pretty much all of 40k reads like a bad fanfic. If you're not a fan of that, don't read the fluff.
The guardsmen were at risk of corruption merely from being in the Daemon Primarch's presence. It is true that the mere presence of a standard daemon can drive lesser men insane, what does it say about one of the most highly exalted of their kind? There is a reason that over a tenth of the Grey Knights (who rarely deploy in the first place) were there to fight Angron - he's a massive threat.
Imagine if the Inquisition hadn't been there that day. I can pretty much bet that ALL of Armageddon's population, and a hell of a lot more Space Furries, would be dead. More than what would've been culled by the Inquisition's safeguard.
Yet, wise Grimnar forgets all the knowledge he should know as a Chapter Master of a First Founding Chapter and decides that the Inquisition are just overexaggerating to the presence of a literal Warp conduit and chosen son of Khorne.
EngulfedObject wrote: Don't go putting words in my mouth. I'm simply saying Grimnar probably didn't realize the Inquisition would exterminatus several planets over a few troop transports carrying IG that happened to fight Chaos, since the average citizen is well aware of the existence of Chaos (as you argued in this same thread) and IG regularly fight Chaos.
It wasn't the 'knowledge of Chaos' that the transports were destroyed for, it was the fact that the guardsmen almost certainly had daemonic timebombs sitting in their heads.
Where did I say he was a good guy? Implying the Inquisition was simply doing what was necessary and Grimnar is to blame is a rather flawed argument, seeing how the IG transports that escaped didn't lead to an outbreak of Chaos corruption.
To be fair, Logan Griminir seems like a pretty all round good guy. What with the whole Armageddon 1 debacle vs the Iquisition
So I guess that's where you said he was a good guy - by telling us that Bacon was right... and actually, you have no idea if those transports led to corruption spreading or not. We're not given that information - but the Inquisition must have tracked them all down somehow.
Oh and I'll get back to you on the Tau script looks like Necron script (it doesn't) thing when I have the time.
I hardly said they were identical. Necron script is based on straight lines, mathematically perfect arcs and circles, and precise 45 degree and 90 degree angles. Tau script is based on straight lines and mathematically precise 90 degree angles, with one example of a perfect circle on the zero.
No chaos isn't inherently evil, in the same way JAWS isn't evil, its a fish, fish cant be evil, we as sentient creatures assign traits that we believe to be evil to it, thing with the warp is, once you decide to assign these traits to the warp, it starts popping out "evil" creatures, the warp isn't chaos and chaos isn't the warp, one is part of the other, without the warp, there is no chaos, without chaos, the warp still exists, its a case that once sentient creatures started to project their minds into the warp, that it would be damaged, chaos is a symptom of that damage.
Formosa wrote: No chaos isn't inherently evil, in the same way JAWS isn't evil, its a fish, fish cant be evil, we as sentient creatures assign traits that we believe to be evil to it, thing with the warp is, once you decide to assign these traits to the warp, it starts popping out "evil" creatures, the warp isn't chaos and chaos isn't the warp, one is part of the other, without the warp, there is no chaos, without chaos, the warp still exists, its a case that once sentient creatures started to project their minds into the warp, that it would be damaged, chaos is a symptom of that damage.
If nothing else, it could still be very reasonably argued that Chaos are still evil because of their actions. As the saying goes: 'Evil is as evil does'. So even if you argue that the Ruinous Powers and the Force of Chaos are not evil by nature, they are still evil by action.
Chaos is inherently evil because they are a manifestation of all that is bad in the material realm, the actions of sentient races fed them to the point they are at. To say they aren't evil because they had no choice in the matter is wrong.
So yes Chaos is literally a manifestation of evil. Yes the Imperium sucks, but they aren't inherently evil, I wouldn't even say they are evil just pragmatic.
Who would I rather win? fething Imperium of course, because at least life goes on with that path. Seriously people need to quit trying to invert a factions alignment, you can tell at a glance who is better.
Formosa wrote: No chaos isn't inherently evil, in the same way JAWS isn't evil, its a fish, fish cant be evil, we as sentient creatures assign traits that we believe to be evil to it, thing with the warp is, once you decide to assign these traits to the warp, it starts popping out "evil" creatures, the warp isn't chaos and chaos isn't the warp, one is part of the other, without the warp, there is no chaos, without chaos, the warp still exists, its a case that once sentient creatures started to project their minds into the warp, that it would be damaged, chaos is a symptom of that damage.
If nothing else, it could still be very reasonably argued that Chaos are still evil because of their actions. As the saying goes: 'Evil is as evil does'. So even if you argue that the Ruinous Powers and the Force of Chaos are not evil by nature, they are still evil by action.
You have to understand the concepts of good and evil in order to be either. A dog isn't evil because it bites someone, nor is it good because it leads the blind, it just does what it has been conditioned to do. The entities in the Warp are formed from pure emotion and power, and the vast majority of daemons don't seem to have enough self awareness to do anything beyond what their natural impulse is. A Slaaneshi daemon will try to take things to excess, a Khornate one will try to murder you. That certainly makes them dangerous and not something you'd want to be around, but no more evil than a swarm of hornets or a cloud of chlorine. The gods are certainly sentient, but are they evil? Nurgle seems to genuinely care for his followers, and if Khorne and Slaanesh are anything like their followers the concepts of good and evil hold no interest whatsoever for them.
Formosa wrote: No chaos isn't inherently evil, in the same way JAWS isn't evil, its a fish, fish cant be evil, we as sentient creatures assign traits that we believe to be evil to it, thing with the warp is, once you decide to assign these traits to the warp, it starts popping out "evil" creatures, the warp isn't chaos and chaos isn't the warp, one is part of the other, without the warp, there is no chaos, without chaos, the warp still exists, its a case that once sentient creatures started to project their minds into the warp, that it would be damaged, chaos is a symptom of that damage.
If nothing else, it could still be very reasonably argued that Chaos are still evil because of their actions. As the saying goes: 'Evil is as evil does'. So even if you argue that the Ruinous Powers and the Force of Chaos are not evil by nature, they are still evil by action.
You have to understand the concepts of good and evil in order to be either. A dog isn't evil because it bites someone, nor is it good because it leads the blind, it just does what it has been conditioned to do. The entities in the Warp are formed from pure emotion and power, and the vast majority of daemons don't seem to have enough self awareness to do anything beyond what their natural impulse is. A Slaaneshi daemon will try to take things to excess, a Khornate one will try to murder you. That certainly makes them dangerous and not something you'd want to be around, but no more evil than a swarm of hornets or a cloud of chlorine. The gods are certainly sentient, but are they evil? Nurgle seems to genuinely care for his followers, and if Khorne and Slaanesh are anything like their followers the concepts of good and evil hold no interest whatsoever for them.
Daemons weren't conditioned to do anything, they weren't born pure and innocent only to be shaped into a horrific killing machine by a malevolent influence. They're born evil (if you can call that birth), from evil, and do evil as soon as they live.
Formosa wrote: No chaos isn't inherently evil, in the same way JAWS isn't evil, its a fish, fish cant be evil, we as sentient creatures assign traits that we believe to be evil to it, thing with the warp is, once you decide to assign these traits to the warp, it starts popping out "evil" creatures, the warp isn't chaos and chaos isn't the warp, one is part of the other, without the warp, there is no chaos, without chaos, the warp still exists, its a case that once sentient creatures started to project their minds into the warp, that it would be damaged, chaos is a symptom of that damage.
If nothing else, it could still be very reasonably argued that Chaos are still evil because of their actions. As the saying goes: 'Evil is as evil does'. So even if you argue that the Ruinous Powers and the Force of Chaos are not evil by nature, they are still evil by action.
You have to understand the concepts of good and evil in order to be either. A dog isn't evil because it bites someone, nor is it good because it leads the blind, it just does what it has been conditioned to do. The entities in the Warp are formed from pure emotion and power, and the vast majority of daemons don't seem to have enough self awareness to do anything beyond what their natural impulse is. A Slaaneshi daemon will try to take things to excess, a Khornate one will try to murder you. That certainly makes them dangerous and not something you'd want to be around, but no more evil than a swarm of hornets or a cloud of chlorine. The gods are certainly sentient, but are they evil? Nurgle seems to genuinely care for his followers, and if Khorne and Slaanesh are anything like their followers the concepts of good and evil hold no interest whatsoever for them.
Daemons weren't conditioned to do anything, they weren't born pure and innocent only to be shaped into a horrific killing machine by a malevolent influence. They're born evil (if you can call that birth), from evil, and do evil as soon as they live.
That's the thing, they were not born evil, they were not born, hence the neverborn, they don't exist, they have never existed and yet, they are, they have no opertunity to ever be more than they are as they do not exist, they are literally formless until emotions are projected upon them or ideas and preconceptions, the thing with the warp is that it does not exist, but it's still there, once sentient creatures became aware, they inherently damaged the realm of the warp, so these formless benign pieces of anti energy started to become something from nothing, but still remained... Nothing, it's a hard concept to grasp I grant you, but only something that can choose, can be inherently evil, I don't consider wasps evil because they sting me, it's not something they choose to do on a intellectual level, it's something they must do to defend themselves.
It's entirely possible that the chaos gods are the warps inherent defence against sentient creatures, it's sick, and that sickness manifests in a force that is trying to cure itself by killing the very thing making it sick.
Remember that before the lesser sentient races existed the warp was calm, benign and freely traveled, it wasn't until the old ones started to meddle with it that it started to "fight back" manifesting gods and deamons, perhaps the warp manifested gods of order at first to try to aid the sentient races, to live with them and guide them, but this ultimately failed, this is why all the gods of order are dead, so it changed tack, manifested gods of disorder to speed the destruction of the sentient races and thus, heal itself and bring back the calm.
Formosa wrote: No chaos isn't inherently evil, in the same way JAWS isn't evil, its a fish, fish cant be evil, we as sentient creatures assign traits that we believe to be evil to it, thing with the warp is, once you decide to assign these traits to the warp, it starts popping out "evil" creatures, the warp isn't chaos and chaos isn't the warp, one is part of the other, without the warp, there is no chaos, without chaos, the warp still exists, its a case that once sentient creatures started to project their minds into the warp, that it would be damaged, chaos is a symptom of that damage.
If nothing else, it could still be very reasonably argued that Chaos are still evil because of their actions. As the saying goes: 'Evil is as evil does'. So even if you argue that the Ruinous Powers and the Force of Chaos are not evil by nature, they are still evil by action.
You have to understand the concepts of good and evil in order to be either. A dog isn't evil because it bites someone, nor is it good because it leads the blind, it just does what it has been conditioned to do. The entities in the Warp are formed from pure emotion and power, and the vast majority of daemons don't seem to have enough self awareness to do anything beyond what their natural impulse is. A Slaaneshi daemon will try to take things to excess, a Khornate one will try to murder you. That certainly makes them dangerous and not something you'd want to be around, but no more evil than a swarm of hornets or a cloud of chlorine. The gods are certainly sentient, but are they evil? Nurgle seems to genuinely care for his followers, and if Khorne and Slaanesh are anything like their followers the concepts of good and evil hold no interest whatsoever for them.
"You have to understand the concepts of good and evil in order to be either." - I reckon that's a highly debatable point. Also, extending your dog analogy: If it bits somebody once, it cannot be 'evil' in the same way that leading a blind person once doesn't make it good. It's the repeated actions which make it 'good' or 'evil'. Same concept here in 40K. As I said, if nothing else: Evil Is As Evil Does.
I also disagree with your position on daemons, but that's a little off topic if you ask me. As for Nurgle, showing car for your subjects and being good (or at least being not evil) don't have to go hand in hand. And as far as Slaanesh and Khorne having no interests in the concepts of good and evil, that doesn't preclude them from being either; it just means they don't care.
urbanknight4 wrote: Daemons weren't conditioned to do anything, they weren't born pure and innocent only to be shaped into a horrific killing machine by a malevolent influence. They're born evil (if you can call that birth), from evil, and do evil as soon as they live.
Chaos, as an elemental force, is not evil. Chaos is composed of all of the energies that mortals project into the Warp. This includes everything "good" (honor, valor, joy, etc.) and everything "bad" (anger, hatred, jealousy, lust, etc.). For the purpose of this post, we will refer to the two as "positive" (the former) and "negative" (the latter) energies.
Spoiler:
When a mortal dies, his/her/its soul is cut loose from the body and set adrift in the Warp. As the soul drifts around in the Warp, it slowly breaks down into it constituent energies; being both positive and negative. Those energies most similar to eachother, such as a warrior's courage and martyr's bravery, coalesce. As time goes on, they form whirlpools of energy. As warriors, with their powerful feelings of anger, bravery, and killing fervor, coalesce together, the current warriors might be particularly violent. These especially violent warriors' energies will come together with the murderers', then. Eventually, enough energy coalesces to form a sentience. Now, this sentient incorporates everything the violent parts of those warriors had - the honor, the rage, the hatred, and the bravery in equal measures. This sentience can now utilize the energy it is composed of; expending in order to acquire more (much as real-life organisms do). These sentiences can "consume" other energies by incorporating them into themselves; thereby becoming more powerful. As time goes on, more and more souls come into these sentiences; eventually providing them with enough power to interact with the Materium. As these warriors' souls reach a critical mass, they become a God of war; Khorne. This is how a God is formed.
When you worship a God, you essentially promise your soul to it. In this manner, you can eventually become a Daemon Prince (by having power bestowed upon you) or just Khorne's fingernail in his ethereal manifestation. This is why Gods are constantly trying to get people to worship them; it gives them massive increases in power.
Gods also gain power from the basic energies mortals give off when their alive (for instance, every time you feel rage, you're feeding Khorne).
Now, it is important to remember that Chaos Entities generally incorporate a variety of attributes. The reasoning for this being that they 1.) are composed of entire portions of souls, and souls are incredibly diverse (just look at the bewildering amount of traits a single human mind can have) 2.) consume other entities' energies; thereby changing their own makeup and personality. Therefore, Khorne would very likely have incorporated a sense of Martial Honor from the many soldiers he incorporated - which he has completely and utterly ignored in favor of taking skulls from anyone and everyone. Therefore, Khorne is "evil"; for he has cast aside his sense of right and wrong in favor of utter gluttony regarding war "Khorne cares not from whom the blood flows, so long as it flows."
If we look at Slaanesh, Slaanesh represents sensation in all its forms; pleasure, pain, etc. She does not represent love in any way, shape or form. Slaanesh is sensuality incarnate; mistaking that for love is a grave mistake. Never - not once - has Slaanesh ever shown an iota of love for anyone, nor have her followers. Whenever you feel an intense sensation (pain, for instance), the energies you give off will feed Slaanesh. Of course, Slaanesh consumed the vast majority of the Eldar Pantheon, so she's also partially the God of whatever they were (outside of War, Life, and Joy/Laughter/trickery; the first went full C'tan shard, the second belongs to Nurgle, the third escaped Chaos entirely). I suppose, in a way, Slaanesh is the God of Eldar. Slaanesh isn't necessarily "evil" (she's literally the product of ten millenia of non-stop orgies), but her followers definitely are; they cast aside any morality that they had in favor of following the way of rape, torture, and doing everything you can for your next high at the expense of others.
I've already gone over Khorne, but suffice it to say that any intense anger or rage feeds him, and any Martial energies you give off will feed him. Also, he's a dick.
Tzeentch represents hope, change and magic. I don't know too much about Tzeentch, so I don't really know any of his more recessive traits, but these 3 seem to be his big ones. I'd say that he's one of the lesser evils, here, though that doesn't change the fact that he leaves behind his whole "hope" thing with virtually every change he brings about (seems like he brings about more despair than anything).
Last, but sure as hell not least, we come to Nurgle. Nurgle is, perhaps, the only Chaos God that isn't, in any way, "evil". Sure, he spreads disease and pestilence, but he's just doing it to expand his family. With every life he takes, he incorporates another soul into himself, and creates another Daemon. His followers refer to him as "papa Nurgle", and seem to genuinely love eachother. He could be considered the god of disease, pestilence, decay and paternal love.
tl;dr, Chaos isn't evil, but its current manifestation is. The current followers of Chaos are corrupted to the core with negative energies, and wreak evil for evil's sake (except for Nurgle's followers; they just want more bros). Slaanesh's followers and Daemons are raping and murdering for the sake of murdering and raping and finding the next high - all at the expense of someone else. Khorne's followers are murdering and pillaging for the sake of killing - all at the expense of others. Tzeentch's followers are bringing down worlds butchering billions for the sake of change - all at the expense of others. If they didn't know any better, then it would be different, but they do know better. They're human beings who cast aside morality and righteousness for their sorry states of being, and there is no viable excuse for them.
Source(s): Realms of Chaos: the Lost and the Damned, Lexicanum, False Gods, Fear to Tread, Fulgrim, a bunch of other novels and codices involving Chaos
You don't get to wave aside the evil/goodness of a sentient being just because they were made evil/good.
Each Daemon makes a choice at each step on what to do. To say Tzeentch's follower's butcher for change is laughable. There are plenty of ways to change things for the better or in a non-violent fashion, something those daemons never do. To not care about the expense of others for the end goal of satisfying yourself is itself evil.
No one has made a proper argument as why Chaos is not evil. So far all that has been said is "It is not their fault they were made that way", which doesn't matter because they were made evil.
I don't know about that. I think I prefer the explanation in a certain animated movie coming out next year.
"It is arrogant to assume it is evil just because it was born to be evil. Is it not love that allows a life to be born into the world?"
Daemons do desire to be made manifest in the material world. They're unreality trying to be real. Depending on certain philosophical viewpoints, existence is the highest form of good. And non-existence is evil unto itself.
"There's no crime in a baby even if it's born evil."
Think of the birth of the Chaos Gods
"Yes, their nature is evil. They were made that way after all. They were born to be evil from the very beginning. They're not like people. These are pure deities that people made. But we know exactly how they think about it."
"If the Chaos Gods consider their actions evil and agonizes over them, or considers them good and laughs about them. We know which of the two is true."
"If they have emotions like that of a human and agonizes over what they do, they are evil."
"But if they have no doubt about their existence, they are good. They were made that way by the collective unconscious of sentient beings after all. If they have no doubt about their function, they cannot be evil."
The only answer to be found is if Chaos succeeds. Would they be able to forgive themselves after destroying and losing everything? That's what I would like to know.
I want to know if it's a crime to live as you are, when you are different from others and could only do what others perceive as evil.
Formosa wrote: No chaos isn't inherently evil, in the same way JAWS isn't evil, its a fish, fish cant be evil, we as sentient creatures assign traits that we believe to be evil to it, thing with the warp is, once you decide to assign these traits to the warp, it starts popping out "evil" creatures, the warp isn't chaos and chaos isn't the warp, one is part of the other, without the warp, there is no chaos, without chaos, the warp still exists, its a case that once sentient creatures started to project their minds into the warp, that it would be damaged, chaos is a symptom of that damage.
If nothing else, it could still be very reasonably argued that Chaos are still evil because of their actions. As the saying goes: 'Evil is as evil does'. So even if you argue that the Ruinous Powers and the Force of Chaos are not evil by nature, they are still evil by action.
You have to understand the concepts of good and evil in order to be either. A dog isn't evil because it bites someone, nor is it good because it leads the blind, it just does what it has been conditioned to do. The entities in the Warp are formed from pure emotion and power, and the vast majority of daemons don't seem to have enough self awareness to do anything beyond what their natural impulse is. A Slaaneshi daemon will try to take things to excess, a Khornate one will try to murder you. That certainly makes them dangerous and not something you'd want to be around, but no more evil than a swarm of hornets or a cloud of chlorine. The gods are certainly sentient, but are they evil? Nurgle seems to genuinely care for his followers, and if Khorne and Slaanesh are anything like their followers the concepts of good and evil hold no interest whatsoever for them.
Daemons weren't conditioned to do anything, they weren't born pure and innocent only to be shaped into a horrific killing machine by a malevolent influence. They're born evil (if you can call that birth), from evil, and do evil as soon as they live.
That's the thing, they were not born evil, they were not born, hence the neverborn, they don't exist, they have never existed and yet, they are, they have no opertunity to ever be more than they are as they do not exist, they are literally formless until emotions are projected upon them or ideas and preconceptions, the thing with the warp is that it does not exist, but it's still there, once sentient creatures became aware, they inherently damaged the realm of the warp, so these formless benign pieces of anti energy started to become something from nothing, but still remained... Nothing, it's a hard concept to grasp I grant you, but only something that can choose, can be inherently evil, I don't consider wasps evil because they sting me, it's not something they choose to do on a intellectual level, it's something they must do to defend themselves.
It's entirely possible that the chaos gods are the warps inherent defence against sentient creatures, it's sick, and that sickness manifests in a force that is trying to cure itself by killing the very thing making it sick.
Remember that before the lesser sentient races existed the warp was calm, benign and freely traveled, it wasn't until the old ones started to meddle with it that it started to "fight back" manifesting gods and deamons, perhaps the warp manifested gods of order at first to try to aid the sentient races, to live with them and guide them, but this ultimately failed, this is why all the gods of order are dead, so it changed tack, manifested gods of disorder to speed the destruction of the sentient races and thus, heal itself and bring back the calm.
Yep... That's how my brain works....
I wpuld spoiler the quotes, but I'm on my phone.
Your argument liiens daemons to the human immune system. I like it. We do not consider ourselves evil when we enact the genocide of quadrillions of bacterium.
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Quickjager wrote: You don't get to wave aside the evil/goodness of a sentient being just because they were made evil/good.
Each Daemon makes a choice at each step on what to do. To say Tzeentch's follower's butcher for change is laughable. There are plenty of ways to change things for the better or in a non-violent fashion, something those daemons never do. To not care about the expense of others for the end goal of satisfying yourself is itself evil.
No one has made a proper argument as why Chaos is not evil. So far all that has been said is "It is not their fault they were made that way", which doesn't matter because they were made evil.
40k's Chaos isn't a thing like humans are. It is a reflection of the universe. We don't call our mirror images evil when we kill someone.
Selym wrote: 40k's Chaos isn't a thing like humans are. It is a reflection of the universe. We don't call our mirror images evil when we kill someone.
But our reflections in the mirror can't act independently. Chaos might be a reflection of all life in the galaxy, but they can act independently.
This is a mirror you can walk into, it's not quite as simple. While Chaos at higher levels has sentience, it is limited in the directions it can take.
If the universe were nicer, and the races stopped fighting, Khorne would die. He would likey be replaced by a god of diplomacy and charisma.
Selym wrote: 40k's Chaos isn't a thing like humans are. It is a reflection of the universe. We don't call our mirror images evil when we kill someone.
But our reflections in the mirror can't act independently. Chaos might be a reflection of all life in the galaxy, but they can act independently.
This is a mirror you can walk into, it's not quite as simple. While Chaos at higher levels has sentience, it is limited in the directions it can take.
If the universe were nicer, and the races stopped fighting, Khorne would die. He would likey be replaced by a god of diplomacy and charisma.
So what is the point you're making? The mirror metaphor doesn't work here really.
My point is that the actions of chaos are controlled by other species. It has no preference of actions, but must reflect the actions and emotions of physica beings. Thus proving that while Chaos can be harsh, it cannot be evil.
IllumiNini wrote: That would also mean that the thing it's reflecting cannot be evil. In other words, you're essentially saying that there is no evil in 40K.
The logic of that statement would be like saying rhat an owner has no control over his dog. Chaos reflects and is subservient to thematerial universe. Humans and the like have the capacity for evil, and when they do evil, Chaos becomes a nasty place.
EDIT: I must correct myself; It's like saying that because a dog cannot be considered evil, the owner cannot either and must therefore be forgiven for all crimes.
IllumiNini wrote: That would also mean that the thing it's reflecting cannot be evil. In other words, you're essentially saying that there is no evil in 40K.
The logic of that statement would be like saying rhat an owner has no control over his dog. Chaos reflects and is subservient to thematerial universe. Humans and the like have the capacity for evil, and when they do evil, Chaos becomes a nasty place.
You are confusing the Warp for Chaos, because of that I am afraid you are reading past what we are saying. The Warp is a reflection of the Materium, Chaos is not. Chaos is a byproduct of the emotions of sapient beings. Chaos was created and now has sentience. They wish to grow stronger and so force more emotions of their respective type to occur. They literally live off evil and commit it to further themselves.
IllumiNini wrote: That would also mean that the thing it's reflecting cannot be evil. In other words, you're essentially saying that there is no evil in 40K.
The logic of that statement would be like saying rhat an owner has no control over his dog. Chaos reflects and is subservient to thematerial universe. Humans and the like have the capacity for evil, and when they do evil, Chaos becomes a nasty place.
You are confusing the Warp for Chaos, because of that I am afraid you are reading past what we are saying. The Warp is a reflection of the Materium, Chaos is not. Chaos is a byproduct of the emotions of sapient beings. Chaos was created and now has sentience. They wish to grow stronger and so force more emotions of their respective type to occur. They literally live off evil and commit it to further themselves.
They manifest from emotion, not evil, a byproduct of those emotions is something we consider evil, thus, they become what we think they are, so if the sentient races stopped fighting, made peace, and didn't engage in total war, then the gods of Chaos would dissipate back into the warp, and something else would rise.
Many novels have shown us that deamons are literally formless anti energy, when the deamons encounter a mind, they begin to take shape, form themselves into the stuff of nightmares, but until that point, they are nothing but potential.
Deamons dedicated to a particular god are simply shadows of the gods being, they don't have any free will at all, but are extentions of the will of the greater being, the chaos gods made a sentient being and gave it free will, that ended badly for them, one was expelled from the warp with its followers, the other is belakor, the deamon primarchs are even said to be just extentions of the gods will at this point.
Sentience is important here, deamons are self aware, but don't have a soul or freewill, they lack the very moral and intellectual tools to choose right from wrong, thus they cannot be evil, they can commit acts of evil, but not through Any cognitive choice, thus they are not evil, merely slaves to their nature and our own.
IllumiNini wrote: That would also mean that the thing it's reflecting cannot be evil. In other words, you're essentially saying that there is no evil in 40K.
The logic of that statement would be like saying rhat an owner has no control over his dog. Chaos reflects and is subservient to thematerial universe. Humans and the like have the capacity for evil, and when they do evil, Chaos becomes a nasty place.
You are confusing the Warp for Chaos, because of that I am afraid you are reading past what we are saying. The Warp is a reflection of the Materium, Chaos is not. Chaos is a byproduct of the emotions of sapient beings. Chaos was created and now has sentience. They wish to grow stronger and so force more emotions of their respective type to occur. They literally live off evil and commit it to further themselves.
They manifest from emotion, not evil, a byproduct of those emotions is something we consider evil, thus, they become what we think they are, so if the sentient races stopped fighting, made peace, and didn't engage in total war, then the gods of Chaos would dissipate back into the warp, and something else would rise.
Many novels have shown us that deamons are literally formless anti energy, when the deamons encounter a mind, they begin to take shape, form themselves into the stuff of nightmares, but until that point, they are nothing but potential.
Deamons dedicated to a particular god are simply shadows of the gods being, they don't have any free will at all, but are extentions of the will of the greater being, the chaos gods made a sentient being and gave it free will, that ended badly for them, one was expelled from the warp with its followers, the other is belakor, the deamon primarchs are even said to be just extentions of the gods will at this point.
Sentience is important here, deamons are self aware, but don't have a soul or freewill, they lack the very moral and intellectual tools to choose right from wrong, thus they cannot be evil, they can commit acts of evil, but not through Any cognitive choice, thus they are not evil, merely slaves to their nature and our own.
Pure speculation on your part on all but your first and third point. Even if the majority of Demons didn't have free-will their respective Gods may have it. At this point you're arguing semantics which really don't have a place or purpose in the 40k universe, they commit acts defined as us by evil, they are evil by extension.
IllumiNini wrote: That would also mean that the thing it's reflecting cannot be evil. In other words, you're essentially saying that there is no evil in 40K.
The logic of that statement would be like saying rhat an owner has no control over his dog. Chaos reflects and is subservient to thematerial universe. Humans and the like have the capacity for evil, and when they do evil, Chaos becomes a nasty place.
You are confusing the Warp for Chaos, because of that I am afraid you are reading past what we are saying. The Warp is a reflection of the Materium, Chaos is not. Chaos is a byproduct of the emotions of sapient beings. Chaos was created and now has sentience. They wish to grow stronger and so force more emotions of their respective type to occur. They literally live off evil and commit it to further themselves.
You are righr, I mean Warp in a place where I said Chaos. The Warp being the place in which Chaos manifests (Chaos with a capital C), it contains the metaphysical.laws by which Chaos is created.
You cannot label something evil simply by the acts they commit. Killing things is evil, but we do it by the billions on a daily basis to survive. Some religious systems posit that burning a particular book is of the greatest evil, but will happily bomb a plane.
Serial theft can be considered an evil, but many do it just so they won't starve.
Morality is not as black and white as the statement "Their actions are evil, therefore they are evil" would suggest.
Khorne embidies war and rage not by choice, but because that is all he is. He has not the capacity to change that, and by not doing war stuff Khorne would surely die. Beings of the Warp/Chaos are stuck somewhere between Amorality and Orange/Blue morality.
IllumiNini wrote: That would also mean that the thing it's reflecting cannot be evil. In other words, you're essentially saying that there is no evil in 40K.
The logic of that statement would be like saying rhat an owner has no control over his dog. Chaos reflects and is subservient to thematerial universe. Humans and the like have the capacity for evil, and when they do evil, Chaos becomes a nasty place.
You are confusing the Warp for Chaos, because of that I am afraid you are reading past what we are saying. The Warp is a reflection of the Materium, Chaos is not. Chaos is a byproduct of the emotions of sapient beings. Chaos was created and now has sentience. They wish to grow stronger and so force more emotions of their respective type to occur. They literally live off evil and commit it to further themselves.
They manifest from emotion, not evil, a byproduct of those emotions is something we consider evil, thus, they become what we think they are, so if the sentient races stopped fighting, made peace, and didn't engage in total war, then the gods of Chaos would dissipate back into the warp, and something else would rise.
Many novels have shown us that deamons are literally formless anti energy, when the deamons encounter a mind, they begin to take shape, form themselves into the stuff of nightmares, but until that point, they are nothing but potential.
Deamons dedicated to a particular god are simply shadows of the gods being, they don't have any free will at all, but are extentions of the will of the greater being, the chaos gods made a sentient being and gave it free will, that ended badly for them, one was expelled from the warp with its followers, the other is belakor, the deamon primarchs are even said to be just extentions of the gods will at this point.
Sentience is important here, deamons are self aware, but don't have a soul or freewill, they lack the very moral and intellectual tools to choose right from wrong, thus they cannot be evil, they can commit acts of evil, but not through Any cognitive choice, thus they are not evil, merely slaves to their nature and our own.
Pure speculation on your part on all but your first and third point. Even if the majority of Demons didn't have free-will their respective Gods may have it. At this point you're arguing semantics which really don't have a place or purpose in the 40k universe, they commit acts defined as us by evil, they are evil by extension.
Pure speculation backed by a whole heap of fluff, so yes.
My second point is pretty much describing events from several black library books, where deamons are literally formless and don't actually manifest until the space marine is looking at it and it is using his perception and mind to form, same happens in thousand sons, the warp creatures attack ahirman are formless until he gives them form by comparing them to a shark, he even describes them as warp predators, not sentient beings.
Again deamons have always been described as extentions of their god, their intelligence varies on the power they have reached and the favour of there god, some are incredibly intelligent but totally lack the ability to do anything other than what is in their nature, when you add the human factor to the warp, it manifests these creatures, they didn't exist before, but now they pop out of the warp and immediately size upon the first mental image they can, usually this is terror or fear.
The chaos gods subjects are slightly different in that they are already formed to an extent by our hatred etc. And these are far less dangerous to summon I'd imagine than a formless deamon that is unaligned.
I apologize if someone has already stated this but our current definition of good is basically the classical definition of altruism. Helping other, being compassionate, allowing others certain freedoms as long as they don't interfere in other people. Our current definition of evil is selfishness, self-preservation above the welfare of others, and the infliction, direct or indirect of harm or confinement, physical or metaphysical. These standards don't apply in 40k. There is no concept of it here on the macroscopic scale. When you talk about billions and trillions of people spread across thousands of different worlds, the Imperium operates on a level that cannot take the personal well-being of individuals into account. Also on this scale the interests of all out weight the liberties of the few so almost every action and its consequences will be perceived as evil to us who live in a society that is at least a millionth the size of the imperium. Galactic politics will make current geopolitics look like friendly disagreements and our wars look like military exercises rather than gut wrenching horrors. As a result of this the only ethical/moral axis that can be applied is the law vs chaos. And that axis is clearly delineated in the fluff.
Evil is a point of view. However, as Chaos is created by mortals, if they think it is evil then they by extension are evil for creating something evil. On the other hand, Chaos cannot possibly be considered evil because they simply represent certain aspects and would denature if not feeding those aspects. Can you blame a poison dart frog for killing someone who touches it? No, it's created with self-preservation already in the design, and cannot act other than that. Likewise with Chaos.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
No one has made a proper argument as why Chaos is not evil. So far all that has been said is "It is not their fault they were made that way", which doesn't matter because they were made evil.
And mortals created them:so mortals are more evil.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry meant to quote didn't work.
Keep in mind this does not apply to the mortal followers of Chaos but rather, the Gods and Daemons who cannot be any other way because of their nature.
They are essentially mentally handicapped beings operating on a grander scale. They have some semblance of choice, but they cannot act against what they are formed as.
Chaos Spawn wrote: Evil is a point of view. However, as Chaos is created by mortals, if they think it is evil then they by extension are evil for creating something evil. On the other hand, Chaos cannot possibly be considered evil because they simply represent certain aspects and would denature if not feeding those aspects. Can you blame a poison dart frog for killing someone who touches it? No, it's created with self-preservation already in the design, and cannot act other than that. Likewise with Chaos.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
No one has made a proper argument as why Chaos is not evil. So far all that has been said is "It is not their fault they were made that way", which doesn't matter because they were made evil.
And mortals created them:so mortals are more evil.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry meant to quote didn't work.
All I've been doing is explaining why they are not evil?
Selym wrote: 40k's Chaos isn't a thing like humans are. It is a reflection of the universe. We don't call our mirror images evil when we kill someone.
But our reflections in the mirror can't act independently. Chaos might be a reflection of all life in the galaxy, but they can act independently.
This is a mirror you can walk into, it's not quite as simple. While Chaos at higher levels has sentience, it is limited in the directions it can take.
If the universe were nicer, and the races stopped fighting, Khorne would die. He would likey be replaced by a god of diplomacy and charisma.
No he wouldn't. The Warp is connected to other universes, there's already enough beings in the warp to feed Chaos in the first place, and we don't even know anymore if Khorne was actually created, or if the Chaos Gods are eternal entities who weren't even spawned by mortal thoughts (see Slaanesh orgying itself into existence).
There was a moment in a book (I'm not sure which but I will find it) where a demon of Nurgle admitted that if he did not exist it would be beneficial for everyone.
The Demons are aware the acts they commit are by our definition evil. But they do them anyway, so they can get stronger. It isn't for survival.
Also to argue there will never be fighting in the universe so they fight for survival is pointless. Each of their aspects have been represented by humanity forever and always will be. They are not in danger of dying and never will be.
Chaos Spawn wrote:Evil is a point of view. However, as Chaos is created by mortals, if they think it is evil then they by extension are evil for creating something evil. On the other hand, Chaos cannot possibly be considered evil because they simply represent certain aspects and would denature if not feeding those aspects. Can you blame a poison dart frog for killing someone who touches it? No, it's created with self-preservation already in the design, and cannot act other than that. Likewise with Chaos.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
No one has made a proper argument as why Chaos is not evil. So far all that has been said is "It is not their fault they were made that way", which doesn't matter because they were made evil.
And mortals created them:so mortals are more evil.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry meant to quote didn't work.
No one has made a proper argument as why Chaos is not evil. So far all that has been said is "It is not their fault they were made that way", which doesn't matter because they were made evil.
All I've been doing is explaining why they are not evil?
No, the Gods were created after mortals died; mortals never had a choice in the matter. When mortal souls are generally peaceful, you end up with generally peaceful Gods of Chaos being the most powerful. When the galaxy is in great termoil (such as the War in Heaven, which created Chaos in the first place), negative energies become predominent; causing for the Gods of War and pain and despair to become more powerful. Those Gods are composed of souls - human souls - which understand right and wrong and morality. Therefore, the Gods understand right and wrong. Therefore, the Chaos Gods are evil because they have cast aside any sense of morality for personal gain.
Can you blame a man for punching in the face when you surprise him in the dead of night? no. Can you blame a man for seeking you out and punching in the face in the dead of night? yes. Chaos is evil as much by choice as anything. What originally made Chaos into what it is today is the innumerable souls that died and went into the Warp. These souls included a sense of morality; of right and wrong. The warrior's code went into Khorne just as much as the warrior's rage. The hopeful's desire for a better future went into Tzeentch just as much as the desire for change. The lover's affection went into Slaanesh just as much as the lover's lust. The father's love went into Nurgle just as much as despair. All of the Chaos Gods are composed of souls. Human Souls, Eldar Souls, Tau Souls, every sentient being that has ever lived and died is now inside of the Warp; part of an entity in the Warp. The Gods understand right and wrong; they just choose to ignore them.
Also, sorry, the quotes got all screwy, so I ended up deleting half of them.
Chaos Spawn wrote:Evil is a point of view. However, as Chaos is created by mortals, if they think it is evil then they by extension are evil for creating something evil. On the other hand, Chaos cannot possibly be considered evil because they simply represent certain aspects and would denature if not feeding those aspects. Can you blame a poison dart frog for killing someone who touches it? No, it's created with self-preservation already in the design, and cannot act other than that. Likewise with Chaos.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
No one has made a proper argument as why Chaos is not evil. So far all that has been said is "It is not their fault they were made that way", which doesn't matter because they were made evil.
And mortals created them:so mortals are more evil.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry meant to quote didn't work.
No one has made a proper argument as why Chaos is not evil. So far all that has been said is "It is not their fault they were made that way", which doesn't matter because they were made evil.
All I've been doing is explaining why they are not evil?
No, the Gods were created after mortals died; mortals never had a choice in the matter. When mortal souls are generally peaceful, you end up with generally peaceful Gods of Chaos being the most powerful. When the galaxy is in great termoil (such as the War in Heaven, which created Chaos in the first place), negative energies become predominent; causing for the Gods of War and pain and despair to become more powerful. Those Gods are composed of souls - human souls - which understand right and wrong and morality. Therefore, the Gods understand right and wrong. Therefore, the Chaos Gods are evil because they have cast aside any sense of morality for personal gain.
Can you blame a man for punching in the face when you surprise him in the dead of night? no. Can you blame a man for seeking you out and punching in the face in the dead of night? yes. Chaos is evil as much by choice as anything. What originally made Chaos into what it is today is the innumerable souls that died and went into the Warp. These souls included a sense of morality; of right and wrong. The warrior's code went into Khorne just as much as the warrior's rage. The hopeful's desire for a better future went into Tzeentch just as much as the desire for change. The lover's affection went into Slaanesh just as much as the lover's lust. The father's love went into Nurgle just as much as despair. All of the Chaos Gods are composed of souls. Human Souls, Eldar Souls, Tau Souls, every sentient being that has ever lived and died is now inside of the Warp; part of an entity in the Warp. The Gods understand right and wrong; they just choose to ignore them.
Also, sorry, the quotes got all screwy, so I ended up deleting half of them.
You clearly do not understand the fluff or you would not have mentioned Tau, for though they are sentient they have no Warp presence. The Chaos Gods DO represent these aspects you say they ignored and do act upon them. For example, when humanity's hope was at its highest in the Dark Age of Technology, Tzeentch became incredibly powerful but also incredibly positive. Here we also see that the Gods would not survive if they didn't embody their aspects because when hope was almost eradicated at the end of this era, Tzeentch shattered and was almost destroyed. Therefore they must act upon the evil parts of their nature to survive.
The warp is called the sea of souls, this is not literal, souls literally dissipate into the warp and what happens after no one knows, we know what happens when deamons get them, or when the souls are in the realm of Chaos (part of, but separate from the warp), the chaos gods are not made of souls, they are made of emotions, these emotions are squalls within the warp, they get larger and larger and start to pull on other squalls, brining them into the strongest (like how black holes pull in other or galaxies colliding) getting larger, at some point they start to gain sentience, but are still made up of the raw emotions and others they assimilated into themselves, invariably these are the strongest emotions, such as hate, desire for change, fear and pleasure, the chaos gods are the most powerful of these sentient storms, others appear and are absorbed or destroyed all the time.
You really need to read more fluff on the warp and chaos dusara.
There isn't really a strong argument for chaos being good at all.
Doesn't necessarily mean the Imperium is good either, but that's all been said already.
Chaos Spawn wrote: I would kindly ask that you don't talk about me in this way.
I whole heartedly agree, it's not warranted or nesseary.
And to the point, I and others have pointed out that Chaos is not evil, its defo not good however, it's neutral to its core, it's commits evil acts, but is itself not evil and cannot be.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: There isn't really a strong argument for chaos being good at all.
Doesn't necessarily mean the Imperium is good either, but that's all been said already.
There's no argument for chaos being good, because there is not much that can be considered good in it. But it also cannot be considered evil as it bypasses the logic of our morality system.
I think at this point, it only makes sense to either call Chaos amoral, or come to the conclusion that it operates on an entirely different morality scale.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: There isn't really a strong argument for chaos being good at all.
Doesn't necessarily mean the Imperium is good either, but that's all been said already.
There's no argument for chaos being good, because there is not much that can be considered good in it. But it also cannot be considered evil as it bypasses the logic of our morality system.
I think at this point, it only makes sense to either call Chaos amoral, or come to the conclusion that it operates on an entirely different morality scale.
Agreed, here's a conundrum, since the more powerful emotional vortexes absorb the weaker ones, is it possible that Chaos actually does good things, maybe the living saints and acts of divinity attributed to the big e, could actually be facets of the chaos gods innate chaotic nature, commiting both good and evil acts all the time seems pretty chaotic.
Chaos Spawn wrote:
You clearly do not understand the fluff or you would not have mentioned Tau, for though they are sentient they have no Warp presence. The Chaos Gods DO represent these aspects you say they ignored and do act upon them. For example, when humanity's hope was at its highest in the Dark Age of Technology, Tzeentch became incredibly powerful but also incredibly positive. Here we also see that the Gods would not survive if they didn't embody their aspects because when hope was almost eradicated at the end of this era, Tzeentch shattered and was almost destroyed. Therefore they must act upon the evil parts of their nature to survive.
That is the most broken logic I've ever read. Also, "you clearly don't understand the fluff or you would not have mentioned Tau"? Have a look at this, and this, and this, and this (fourth post down), and this (9 posts down). That was just from the first two pages of a google search (and 90% of it came from the first page), really not that hard. I find myself growing more and more disgusted with your attitude.
According to the Lost and the Damned, when a person's souls enters the Warp it breaks down into its constituent energies (mostly emotional), and then these energies pool with other energies; thereby creating Chaos Entities.
The Chaos Gods DO represent these aspects you say they ignored and do act upon them.
Oh, what specific examples of this do we have? When has Khorne ever spared the weak in favor of killing the strong? When has Slaanesh ever actually showed love to anybody? Any examples?
Also, this
The Chaos Gods DO represent these aspects you say they ignored and do act upon them. For example, when humanity's hope was at its highest in the Dark Age of Technology, Tzeentch became incredibly powerful but also incredibly positive. Here we also see that the Gods would not survive if they didn't embody their aspects because when hope was almost eradicated at the end of this era, Tzeentch shattered and was almost destroyed. Therefore they must act upon the evil parts of their nature to survive.
I have yet to see hide nor tail of this (outside of this thread), so would you mind citing a source? Pretty please?
Also, that is completely broken logic.
Tzeentch becomes composed of more hopeful energies, and thus his hopeful aspects become more pronounced (this makes sense). He is then (somehow) nearly obliterated by a period of great upheaval (sounds like one of Tzeentch's wet dreams, tbh), in which many great magicks are performed, that eradicates this hopeful attitude. Therefore, Tzeentch is effected by the Materium and must, therefore use his power to modulate Mortals and ensure that whatever aspects of himself he wants to be strengthened are strengthened. That is linear logic; it is logical and sensical. What isn't logical is Tzeentch being forced to act upon his evil tendecies to survive. Any time there is a significant portion of Psykers in the galaxy, Tzeentch will survive ( and you can be damned certain that Psykers are never going away). Any time there is change going on in the galaxy, you will find Tzeentch surviving. Any time you find a masterful scheme occuring, you will find Tzeentch surviving. Any time you find hopeful Mortals, you will find Tzeentch surviving. You may have left out a few steps there, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you made a jump in logic using information you failed to provide in the analogy. So please elaborate upon your logic
Chaos Spawn wrote:
You clearly do not understand the fluff or you would not have mentioned Tau, for though they are sentient they have no Warp presence. The Chaos Gods DO represent these aspects you say they ignored and do act upon them. For example, when humanity's hope was at its highest in the Dark Age of Technology, Tzeentch became incredibly powerful but also incredibly positive. Here we also see that the Gods would not survive if they didn't embody their aspects because when hope was almost eradicated at the end of this era, Tzeentch shattered and was almost destroyed. Therefore they must act upon the evil parts of their nature to survive.
That is the most broken logic I've ever read. Also, "you clearly don't understand the fluff or you would not have mentioned Tau"? Have a look at this, and this, and this, and this (fourth post down), and this (9 posts down). That was just from the first two pages of a google search (and 90% of it came from the first page), really not that hard. I find myself growing more and more disgusted with your attitude.
According to the Lost and the Damned, when a person's souls enters the Warp it breaks down into its constituent energies (mostly emotional), and then these energies pool with other energies; thereby creating Chaos Entities.
The Chaos Gods DO represent these aspects you say they ignored and do act upon them.
Oh, what specific examples of this do we have? When has Khorne ever spared the weak in favor of killing the strong? When has Slaanesh ever actually showed love to anybody? Any examples?
Also, this
The Chaos Gods DO represent these aspects you say they ignored and do act upon them. For example, when humanity's hope was at its highest in the Dark Age of Technology, Tzeentch became incredibly powerful but also incredibly positive. Here we also see that the Gods would not survive if they didn't embody their aspects because when hope was almost eradicated at the end of this era, Tzeentch shattered and was almost destroyed. Therefore they must act upon the evil parts of their nature to survive.
I have yet to see hide nor tail of this (outside of this thread), so would you mind citing a source? Pretty please?
Also, that is completely broken logic.
Tzeentch becomes composed of more hopeful energies, and thus his hopeful aspects become more pronounced (this makes sense). He is then (somehow) nearly obliterated by a period of great upheaval (sounds like one of Tzeentch's wet dreams, tbh), in which many great magicks are performed, that eradicates this hopeful attitude. Therefore, Tzeentch is effected by the Materium and must, therefore use his power to modulate Mortals and ensure that whatever aspects of himself he wants to be strengthened are strengthened. That is linear logic; it is logical and sensical. What isn't logical is Tzeentch being forced to act upon his evil tendecies to survive. Any time there is a significant portion of Psykers in the galaxy, Tzeentch will survive ( and you can be damned certain that Psykers are never going away). Any time there is change going on in the galaxy, you will find Tzeentch surviving. Any time you find a masterful scheme occuring, you will find Tzeentch surviving. Any time you find hopeful Mortals, you will find Tzeentch surviving. You may have left out a few steps there, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you made a jump in logic using information you failed to provide in the analogy. So please elaborate upon your logic
Firstly, before I answer your questions, you tried to counter my statement about Tau be linking me to this:
The Tau have no psykers whatsoever among their ranks, for their souls are so feeble they barely register in the Warp at all. They are largely oblivious to the malevolent forces of Chaos, who in turn take no interest in the crumbs that are Tau souls. No Tau has ever been corrupted by Chaos.
How does this counter my point?
Chaos Spawn wrote:
You clearly do not understand the fluff or you would not have mentioned Tau, for though they are sentient they have no Warp presence. The Chaos Gods DO represent these aspects you say they ignored and do act upon them. For example, when humanity's hope was at its highest in the Dark Age of Technology, Tzeentch became incredibly powerful but also incredibly positive. Here we also see that the Gods would not survive if they didn't embody their aspects because when hope was almost eradicated at the end of this era, Tzeentch shattered and was almost destroyed. Therefore they must act upon the evil parts of their nature to survive.
That is the most broken logic I've ever read. Also, "you clearly don't understand the fluff or you would not have mentioned Tau"? Have a look at this, and this, and this, and this (fourth post down), and this (9 posts down). That was just from the first two pages of a google search (and 90% of it came from the first page), really not that hard. I find myself growing more and more disgusted with your attitude.
According to the Lost and the Damned, when a person's souls enters the Warp it breaks down into its constituent energies (mostly emotional), and then these energies pool with other energies; thereby creating Chaos Entities.
The Chaos Gods DO represent these aspects you say they ignored and do act upon them.
Oh, what specific examples of this do we have? When has Khorne ever spared the weak in favor of killing the strong? When has Slaanesh ever actually showed love to anybody? Any examples?
Also, this
The Chaos Gods DO represent these aspects you say they ignored and do act upon them. For example, when humanity's hope was at its highest in the Dark Age of Technology, Tzeentch became incredibly powerful but also incredibly positive. Here we also see that the Gods would not survive if they didn't embody their aspects because when hope was almost eradicated at the end of this era, Tzeentch shattered and was almost destroyed. Therefore they must act upon the evil parts of their nature to survive.
I have yet to see hide nor tail of this (outside of this thread), so would you mind citing a source? Pretty please?
Also, that is completely broken logic.
Tzeentch becomes composed of more hopeful energies, and thus his hopeful aspects become more pronounced (this makes sense). He is then (somehow) nearly obliterated by a period of great upheaval (sounds like one of Tzeentch's wet dreams, tbh), in which many great magicks are performed, that eradicates this hopeful attitude. Therefore, Tzeentch is effected by the Materium and must, therefore use his power to modulate Mortals and ensure that whatever aspects of himself he wants to be strengthened are strengthened. That is linear logic; it is logical and sensical. What isn't logical is Tzeentch being forced to act upon his evil tendecies to survive. Any time there is a significant portion of Psykers in the galaxy, Tzeentch will survive ( and you can be damned certain that Psykers are never going away). Any time there is change going on in the galaxy, you will find Tzeentch surviving. Any time you find a masterful scheme occuring, you will find Tzeentch surviving. Any time you find hopeful Mortals, you will find Tzeentch surviving. You may have left out a few steps there, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you made a jump in logic using information you failed to provide in the analogy. So please elaborate upon your logic
Firstly, before I answer your questions, you tried to counter my statement about Tau be linking me to this:
The Tau have no psykers whatsoever among their ranks, for their souls are so feeble they barely register in the Warp at all. They are largely oblivious to the malevolent forces of Chaos, who in turn take no interest in the crumbs that are Tau souls. No Tau has ever been corrupted by Chaos.
How does this counter my point?
You seemed to believe that the Tau had no souls. A soul is, by definition, the Psychic relfection of a person into the Warp (and is what makes up Chaos Gods). If Tau have souls, then they have an impact on Chaos (no matter how small it is).
I love these kinds of discussions, thanks for getting the mental juices flowing everyone, thought I'd inject some much needed positivity into the thread
Furyou Miko wrote: Misplaced full stop, Dusara, delete it off the end of the link.
thanks, I fixed it. Also, the article is marked as containing lots of fanfiction, in it, how am I to believe anything that it contains if it has fanfic info sprinkled randomly throughout it?
There's not a single reference on that page, unless you count referencing other 1d4 articles
If you're using something as a source, you should at least quote or highlight which part of it and leave a functioning link. And make sure it actually cites sources. Plus linking a page like that is lazy. That'd be the equivalent of me arguing the IoM is objectively good and then leaving a link to its 1d4chan page.
I don't have any references. I was pointing out that if there are references, you can work around the fanfic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also the IOMis objectively good, if all morality is slave to the survival of humanity, thus allowing an "ends justify the means" mentality to be morally acceptable.
Fanfic or no, there are no references on that page, unless I'm missing something. Besides, it'd make more sense to use the lexicanum and quote the text directly, instead of asking others to work around the fanfic. I mean if you're making a point, you're the one that has the burden of proof, right?
Selym wrote: Also the IOMis objectively good, if all morality is slave to the survival of humanity, thus allowing an "ends justify the means" mentality to be morally acceptable.
If the IoM being objectively good requires the condition of morality to be subservient to a certain subjective mentality, then the IoM is not objectively good.
In my subjective point of view, the IoM is certainly not as evil as Chaos, whether Chaos has a choice in being evil or not. Though I think Quickjager got to the crux of the matter with this:
Quickjager wrote: You are confusing the Warp for Chaos, because of that I am afraid you are reading past what we are saying. The Warp is a reflection of the Materium, Chaos is not. Chaos is a byproduct of the emotions of sapient beings. Chaos was created and now has sentience. They wish to grow stronger and so force more emotions of their respective type to occur. They literally live off evil and commit it to further themselves.
Chaos is like a cancer, consciously committing evil as a goal, knowing that any and all evil actions it commits will ultimately empower itself.
Fanfic or no, there are no references on that page, unless I'm missing something. Besides, it'd make more sense to use the lexicanum and quote the text directly, instead of asking others to work around the fanfic. I mean if you're making a point, you're the one that has the burden of proof, right?
Selym wrote: Also the IOMis objectively good, if all morality is slave to the survival of humanity, thus allowing an "ends justify the means" mentality to be morally acceptable.
If the IoM being objectively good requires the condition of morality to be subservient to a certain subjective mentality, then the IoM is not objectively good.
In my subjective point of view, the IoM is certainly not as evil as Chaos, whether Chaos has a choice in being evil or not. Though I think Quickjager got to the crux of the matter with this:
Quickjager wrote: You are confusing the Warp for Chaos, because of that I am afraid you are reading past what we are saying. The Warp is a reflection of the Materium, Chaos is not. Chaos is a byproduct of the emotions of sapient beings. Chaos was created and now has sentience. They wish to grow stronger and so force more emotions of their respective type to occur. They literally live off evil and commit it to further themselves.
Chaos is like a cancer, consciously committing evil as a goal, knowing that any and all evil actions it commits will ultimately empower itself.
That's fine if that's your interpretation of Chaos, but I cannot consider something evil if it cannot consciously make the decision to be good, or evil, Chaos simply is, it's a by product of the turbulence in the Warp, literally a sentient warp storm.
What you and others consider evil is simply the acts of evil that the sentient races emit into the warp, the warp in turn reflect it back out into realspace, they do so because that's all they know how to do, they have no choice, evil begets evil if you will, so no, Chaos is only as evil as the sentient races make them, therefore, they are not inherently evil, and chaos by its very definition commits acts of good, as it's chaotic.
cat_of_fur(r)y wrote: Imperium: fascist, autocratic, extremists
Chaos: kind of democratic (4 gods and peeps like eldar can make new ones.) Extremist, fascist
The Imperium is none of those things. It is composed of almost a million planets; each with its own government. YOu have utopic meritocracies (like Ultramar) and oppressive shitholes (like Krieg) alike.
Formosa wrote: ...Chaos simply is, it's a by product of the turbulence in the Warp, literally a sentient warp storm.
The fact that you attribute them with sentience gives them the power to have a morality, which in turn means that they can be classified as evil since at least a majority of their actions are evil. So you've really just shot yourself in the foot with that.
Formosa wrote: ...Chaos is only as evil as the sentient races make them, therefore, they are not inherently evil
Contradicting yourself there, mate. If the other sentient races make them and the other sentient races make them evil, then by the very definition of inherent combined with the idea that the other sentient races make them, Chaos are evil.
Formosa wrote: ... Chaos by its very definition commits acts of good, as it's chaotic.
I think it's an appropriate assessment when I say that at least a majority of the actions of Chaos are evil. They might do some good here and there (I really don't know and can think of no specific examples) but as I've said a couple of times now, they mostly do evil.
Formosa wrote: ...Chaos simply is, it's a by product of the turbulence in the Warp, literally a sentient warp storm.
The fact that you attribute them with sentience gives them the power to have a morality, which in turn means that they can be classified as evil since at least a majority of their actions are evil. So you've really just shot yourself in the foot with that.
Formosa wrote: ...Chaos is only as evil as the sentient races make them, therefore, they are not inherently evil
Contradicting yourself there, mate. If the other sentient races make them and the other sentient races make them evil, then by the very definition of inherent combined with the idea that the other sentient races make them, Chaos are evil.
Formosa wrote: ... Chaos by its very definition commits acts of good, as it's chaotic.
I think it's an appropriate assessment when I say that at least a majority of the actions of Chaos are evil. They might do some good here and there (I really don't know and can think of no specific examples) but as I've said a couple of times now, they mostly do evil.
No contradictions, I explained their level of sentience in previous posts, I assume you haven't read them however so I'll explain again for clarity.
The chaos gods (not mortal followers) are made up of pure emotions, these emotions pool in the Warp and form vortexes, the stronger negative emotions pull in the lesser emotions and absorb them into the whole, kinda like how galaxies collide or black holes absorb each other, forming a larger vortex, they grow larger and larger on the emotions projected into the warp and start to gain sentience, but are still slaves to their own nature's, they are sentient to a point, self aware enough to want to preserve their own "lives" but not the same level as humans and certainly not the level of eldar, this is evidenced by the acts of their greater deamons, which are lesser clones of the main god, different aspects and powerful avatar's of emotion that spawned them, so while the sentient storm has achieved it's own level of sentience, it is not possible to change its behavior to a less destructive path, as the emotions it is made of will not allow it.
As I've said before, Chaos commits acts of evil, but a shark is not considered evil when it kills, it's just acting in accordance to its nature, it can't change what it is, neither can the chaos gods.
This is all covered by liber chaotica, thousand sons, talon of horus and other books.
I did read it before hand, and that's my bad for neglecting to mention that, as a whole, I honestly disagree with that definition of sentience with regards to Chaos. I think what you are describing is better put under the umbrella of something like 'Self-Awareness', which would allow the preclusion of morality where sentience wouldn't. So my first comment in my previous post stands as long as you maintain that they are sentient. As for my other comments in that post, they stand regardless.
dusara217 wrote: So we're just going to ignore the fact that Khorne murders innocents, despite the many Martial Codes he has absorbed...
Well apparently Formosa is. :/
Now now, no need for snipes
Khorne embodies all aspects of rage, anger, the thrill of the hunt, bloodletting, the panic of being attacked, the cries of the unjustly slain, the terror of all the souls murdered for no reason and the insanity of war.
Khorne embodies martial pride, honour, brotherhood, fighting for the weak, pride in being promoted and all the others.
Khorne follows have shown all these traits through various books, deamons however have never shown any of the positive traits described above to my knowledge.
Which of these emotions are the strongest, as liber chaotica states there are a lot of crossovers between the gods, this manifests in them fighting over these emotions, or as we understand it, Khorne invading the garden of nurgle, or Slaanesh attacking Tzeentch, this last part is Conjecture, but it's backed by the fluff so it makes sense....sometimes they they fight for lols, it's chaos.
An example of a Khorne deamon, this deamon was made up of the emotions of a city that was ransacked in the dark ages (not daot), the city was attacked, it's people burned alive and put to the stake, and all the other lovely things that happen jn those situations, this creature was self aware, but was still controlled by its initial creation, it was a very powerful bloodletter, guess what it wanted to do... It was killing chaos space Marines left right and centre, does that make it evil... Of course not, it never had a choice in the matter, it is what it is, neither good nor evil, Chaos is simply energy given form by other races, they make it what it is, so it cannot be evil, the other races commit the qcts of evil which creates the beings of Chaos, which in turn commit acts of evil, don't commit evil, Chaos stops commiting these acts.
Chaos are slaves to the whims of the other races, which in turn creates more chaos as that is all it can do, due to the other races, it's ironic that the gods need the mortals more than the mortals need the gods, but the mortals do not know this.
dusara217 wrote: So we're just going to ignore the fact that Khorne murders innocents, despite the many Martial Codes he has absorbed...
Well apparently Formosa is. :/
Now now, no need for snipes
Khorne embodies all aspects of rage, anger, the thrill of the hunt, bloodletting, the panic of being attacked, the cries of the unjustly slain, the terror of all the souls murdered for no reason and the insanity of war.
Khorne embodies martial pride, honour, brotherhood, fighting for the weak, pride in being promoted and all the others.
Khorne follows have shown all these traits through various books, deamons however have never shown any of the positive traits described above to my knowledge.
Which of these emotions are the strongest, as liber chaotica states there are a lot of crossovers between the gods, this manifests in them fighting over these emotions, or as we understand it, Khorne invading the garden of nurgle, or Slaanesh attacking Tzeentch, this last part is Conjecture, but it's backed by the fluff so it makes sense....sometimes they they fight for lols, it's chaos.
An example of a Khorne deamon, this deamon was made up of the emotions of a city that was ransacked in the dark ages (not daot), the city was attacked, it's people burned alive and put to the stake, and all the other lovely things that happen jn those situations, this creature was self aware, but was still controlled by its initial creation, it was a very powerful bloodletter, guess what it wanted to do... It was killing chaos space Marines left right and centre, does that make it evil... Of course not, it never had a choice in the matter, it is what it is, neither good nor evil, Chaos is simply energy given form by other races, they make it what it is, so it cannot be evil, the other races commit the qcts of evil which creates the beings of Chaos, which in turn commit acts of evil, don't commit evil, Chaos stops commiting these acts.
Chaos are slaves to the whims of the other races, which in turn creates more chaos as that is all it can do, due to the other races, it's ironic that the gods need the mortals more than the mortals need the gods, but the mortals do not know this.
Liber Chaotica was written for WHFB, not for 40k. They are two separate Universes, according to current fluff; therefore, it has no place in this discussion.
IllumiNini wrote: I did read it before hand, and that's my bad for neglecting to mention that, as a whole, I honestly disagree with that definition of sentience with regards to Chaos. I think what you are describing is better put under the umbrella of something like 'Self-Awareness', which would allow the preclusion of morality where sentience wouldn't. So my first comment in my previous post stands as long as you maintain that they are sentient. As for my other comments in that post, they stand regardless.
As for the books, I haven't read them.
sen·tience (sĕn′shəns, -shē-əns, -tē-əns)
n.
1. The quality or state of being sentient; consciousness.
2. Feeling as distinguished from perception or thought.
(from The Free Dictionary)
Sentience by no means forces a concept of morality to exist within a being. You're thinking of sapience.
The property of being sapient, the property of possessing or being able to possess wisdom.
2009, Robert Brandom, Reason in Philosophy: Animating Ideas wrote:
"I then marked out three ways in which we can instead describe and demarcate ourselves in terms of the sapience that distinguishes us from the beasts of forest and field."
I'm still under the impression that choice isn't something Chaos gets for free.
You can't tell a Plaguebearer to stop spreading disease. It's origin is still in that very concept. You can't tell Skulltaker to not take skulls anymore, it's in its nature.
Relative to us, they do evil things. They perform evil actions to perpetuate their existence because such things help them develop. But they themselves aren't evil just because it's harmful to us.
If they do evil and not care about the consequences because it's in their nature, then they are in essence, not evil.
If they do evil and lament the fact that what they're doing is wrong, but still do it anyway, then they're really evil.
dusara217 wrote: So we're just going to ignore the fact that Khorne murders innocents, despite the many Martial Codes he has absorbed...
Well apparently Formosa is. :/
Now now, no need for snipes
Khorne embodies all aspects of rage, anger, the thrill of the hunt, bloodletting, the panic of being attacked, the cries of the unjustly slain, the terror of all the souls murdered for no reason and the insanity of war.
Khorne embodies martial pride, honour, brotherhood, fighting for the weak, pride in being promoted and all the others.
Khorne follows have shown all these traits through various books, deamons however have never shown any of the positive traits described above to my knowledge.
Which of these emotions are the strongest, as liber chaotica states there are a lot of crossovers between the gods, this manifests in them fighting over these emotions, or as we understand it, Khorne invading the garden of nurgle, or Slaanesh attacking Tzeentch, this last part is Conjecture, but it's backed by the fluff so it makes sense....sometimes they they fight for lols, it's chaos.
An example of a Khorne deamon, this deamon was made up of the emotions of a city that was ransacked in the dark ages (not daot), the city was attacked, it's people burned alive and put to the stake, and all the other lovely things that happen jn those situations, this creature was self aware, but was still controlled by its initial creation, it was a very powerful bloodletter, guess what it wanted to do... It was killing chaos space Marines left right and centre, does that make it evil... Of course not, it never had a choice in the matter, it is what it is, neither good nor evil, Chaos is simply energy given form by other races, they make it what it is, so it cannot be evil, the other races commit the qcts of evil which creates the beings of Chaos, which in turn commit acts of evil, don't commit evil, Chaos stops commiting these acts.
Chaos are slaves to the whims of the other races, which in turn creates more chaos as that is all it can do, due to the other races, it's ironic that the gods need the mortals more than the mortals need the gods, but the mortals do not know this.
Liber Chaotica was written for WHFB, not for 40k. They are two separate Universes, according to current fluff; therefore, it has no place in this discussion.
Liber chaotica was written from a whfb point of view, it's contains information on the followers of Chaos in 40k, 40k and fantasy are connected through the warp, as per the fluff.
Therefore it has every place in this discussion, I'd politely ask you to please keep up to date on this fact.
Years ago some magical gw rep claimed they were not connected.
This was almost immediately contradicted by several black library productions, gw Codex and campaign books
Gw has shown since that the 2 world's are connected through the warp, so, so many times.
Now fantasy has blown up and no longer exists, whether or not the "bubble" verse is connected to the 40k universe is unknown as the fluff doesn't interest me.
Oh and the deamon I was referring to....was a 40k one...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
IllumiNini wrote: My bad. In any case, the fact we're talking sapience vs sentience probably means this argument has gone a bit too far and a bit too deep.
The debate between good and evil, even in a made up world, can never go too far! What what!
Formosa wrote: Gw has shown since that the 2 world's are connected through the warp, so, so many times.
There are tons of online discussions on this subject but I've never seen any proof of GW saying the two are connected. Do you have any specific examples showing this to be the case?
All the deamon characters.
Soul grinder
40k weaponry in fantasy, including chainsword, power fist etc.
Liber chaotica books outright stating that it's possible for Chaos marines to turn up.
Deamon weapon in liber chaotica called "chainblade"
Chaos warriors "rending blade"
Note, I've never said they are the same universe, there not, they are connected through the warp, it touches all world and universes, this is also stated in several places. As stated, they have shown many times they are connected, in return, I've never seen evidence of this magical gw rep stating they are not connected.
All the deamon characters.
Soul grinder
40k weaponry in fantasy, including chainsword, power fist etc.
Liber chaotica books outright stating that it's possible for Chaos marines to turn up.
Deamon weapon in liber chaotica called "chainblade"
Chaos warriors "rending blade"
Note, I've never said they are the same universe, there not, they are connected through the warp, it touches all world and universes, this is also stated in several places. As stated, they have shown many times they are connected, in return, I've never seen evidence of this magical gw rep stating they are not connected.
Hm, I guess the Soul Grinder thing is kinda obvious and the Liber Chaotica thing too. I didn't know power fists and chainswords were in WFB. Is that a recent thing? I haven't seen any of that but maybe I'm not looking hard enough. The daemon characters don't mean much since they could just be two versions of the same characters and the background is tailored to the setting. And if they're connected through the Warp, isn't that the same as being in the same universe?
Remember that time when the 'Imperiums finest', the Grey Knights, slaughtered a bunch of Sisters of Battle and bathed in the blood. Yeah, the Imperium is just as evil as Chaos.
Formosa wrote: ...Chaos simply is, it's a by product of the turbulence in the Warp, literally a sentient warp storm.
The fact that you attribute them with sentience gives them the power to have a morality, which in turn means that they can be classified as evil since at least a majority of their actions are evil. So you've really just shot yourself in the foot with that.
I disagree with this. A number of humans have mental disorders that allow them to be exempted.from laws and normal morality as their brain pidgeonholes them into certain action patterns. They are sentient, but ate not always able to choose to act good.
Similar thing with Chaos.
The emperor was always the evil one. He is a tyrant and always was join me or die all those different from me die. If you come bringing peace and I do not like you, you die. He inslaved millions of world subjagated them to his law ,slaughtered all others. The chaos he speaks, Of that is evil allows you free will the right to choose your own path where the emperor brain washes his people.
I thought the americans on here would be really against the emperor since they acused the british king of the same things and revolted but I guess now it is him inslaving his own people lol. I.e. Space marines are not allowed to be anything more then what they allow them to be their puppets to maintain control of the weak.
OgreChubbs wrote: I thought the americans on here would be really against the emperor wince the acused the british king of the same things and revolted but I guess now it him inslaving his own people lol. I.e. Space marines are not allowed to be anything more thhen what they allow them to be their puppets to maintain controlof the weak.
Uh... you're going to bring the Revolutionary War into this? The fictional Imperium of 40k has very little in common with the British Empire of old... not that they "inslaved" the colonial population. Thinking that Americans should side against the Imperium because their ancestors fought the British Empire centuries ago... makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Seriously, what is up with this thread?
And you have no "choice" when you serve Chaos. Chaos takes you, then owns you, body and soul.
OgreChubbs wrote: I thought the americans on here would be really against the emperor wince the acused the british king of the same things and revolted but I guess now it him inslaving his own people lol. I.e. Space marines are not allowed to be anything more thhen what they allow them to be their puppets to maintain controlof the weak.
Uh... you're going to bring the Revolutionary War into this? The fictional Imperium of 40k has very little in common with the British Empire of old... not that they "inslaved" the colonial population. Thinking that Americans should side against the Imperium because their ancestors fought the British Empire centuries ago... makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Seriously, what is up with this thread?
And you have no "choice" when you serve Chaos. Chaos takes you, then owns you, body and soul.
All the deamon characters.
Soul grinder
40k weaponry in fantasy, including chainsword, power fist etc.
Liber chaotica books outright stating that it's possible for Chaos marines to turn up.
Deamon weapon in liber chaotica called "chainblade"
Chaos warriors "rending blade"
Note, I've never said they are the same universe, there not, they are connected through the warp, it touches all world and universes, this is also stated in several places. As stated, they have shown many times they are connected, in return, I've never seen evidence of this magical gw rep stating they are not connected.
Hm, I guess the Soul Grinder thing is kinda obvious and the Liber Chaotica thing too. I didn't know power fists and chainswords were in WFB. Is that a recent thing? I haven't seen any of that but maybe I'm not looking hard enough. The daemon characters don't mean much since they could just be two versions of the same characters and the background is tailored to the setting. And if they're connected through the Warp, isn't that the same as being in the same universe?
But I see where you're coming from. Interesting.
Power fist was 12 ish years ago if Albion campaign memory serves, chainsword was previous warriors of Chaos and dropped from the most recent version (called the rending blade).
The deamon characters are important as belakor was created in the fantasy universe and crossed over, and they are indeed 2 versions of the same character or manifested emotional force, and no being connected by the warp doesn't mean the same universe, the warp is not the same universe as the imperium occupies it is an alternate dimension, it sits along side all universes in all realities, but is a separate and District universe jn an of itself.
OgreChubbs wrote:The emperor was always the evil one. He is a tyrant and always was join me or die all those different from me die. If you come bringing peace and I do not like you, you die. He inslaved millions of world subjagated them to his law ,slaughtered all others. The chaos he speaks, Of that is evil allows you free will the right to choose your own path where the emperor brain washes his people.
I thought the americans on here would be really against the emperor since they acused the british king of the same things and revolted but I guess now it is him inslaving his own people lol. I.e. Space marines are not allowed to be anything more then what they allow them to be their puppets to maintain control of the weak.
I can't tell if you're trolling or just really, really ignorant of any 40k fluff ever published...
OgreChubbs wrote:The emperor was always the evil one. He is a tyrant and always was join me or die all those different from me die. If you come bringing peace and I do not like you, you die. He inslaved millions of world subjagated them to his law ,slaughtered all others. The chaos he speaks, Of that is evil allows you free will the right to choose your own path where the emperor brain washes his people.
I thought the americans on here would be really against the emperor since they acused the british king of the same things and revolted but I guess now it is him inslaving his own people lol. I.e. Space marines are not allowed to be anything more then what they allow them to be their puppets to maintain control of the weak.
I can't tell if you're trolling or just really, really ignorant of any 40k fluff ever published...
I assure you he isn't being offensive. It's a thin, sorry very thin, analogy but true nontheless. I would not tar all Americans with one brush, nor would I say this point has strong relevance, but I am sure that this was a point and not an insult. However, the first paragraph is very valid and I agree with it.
OgreChubbs wrote:The emperor was always the evil one. He is a tyrant and always was join me or die all those different from me die. If you come bringing peace and I do not like you, you die. He inslaved millions of world subjagated them to his law ,slaughtered all others. The chaos he speaks, Of that is evil allows you free will the right to choose your own path where the emperor brain washes his people.
I thought the americans on here would be really against the emperor since they acused the british king of the same things and revolted but I guess now it is him inslaving his own people lol. I.e. Space marines are not allowed to be anything more then what they allow them to be their puppets to maintain control of the weak.
I can't tell if you're trolling or just really, really ignorant of any 40k fluff ever published...
I assure you he isn't being offensive. It's a thin, sorry very thin, analogy but true nontheless. I would not tar all Americans with one brush, nor would I say this point has strong relevance, but I am sure that this was a point and not an insult. However, the first paragraph is very valid and I agree with it.
1.) The Emperor left most worlds to govern themselves, so long as they contributed to the War effort and subscribed to the Imperial Truth (as evidenced by Fallen Angels, Unremembered Empire, and A Thousand Sons).
2) The Emperor all but abolished slavery (as evidenced by Fear to Tread)
3.) There is no free will in Chaos. Chaos enslaves you mind, body, and soul (as evidenced by Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness, Realms of Chaos: the Lost and the Damned, The Blood Angels Omnibus, Space Wolves Omnibus, as well as virtually any other piece of fluff featuring Chaos).
4.) Every modern government employs brainwashing to some degree. The Emperor is hardly unique in this regard, not even in comparison to other great leaders in 40k.
5.) That last sentence made no sense whatsoever, would mind clarifying? Hopefully in proper english?
OgreChubbs wrote:The emperor was always the evil one. He is a tyrant and always was join me or die all those different from me die. If you come bringing peace and I do not like you, you die. He inslaved millions of world subjagated them to his law ,slaughtered all others. The chaos he speaks, Of that is evil allows you free will the right to choose your own path where the emperor brain washes his people.
I thought the americans on here would be really against the emperor since they acused the british king of the same things and revolted but I guess now it is him inslaving his own people lol. I.e. Space marines are not allowed to be anything more then what they allow them to be their puppets to maintain control of the weak.
I can't tell if you're trolling or just really, really ignorant of any 40k fluff ever published...
I assure you he isn't being offensive. It's a thin, sorry very thin, analogy but true nontheless. I would not tar all Americans with one brush, nor would I say this point has strong relevance, but I am sure that this was a point and not an insult. However, the first paragraph is very valid and I agree with it.
1.) The Emperor left most worlds to govern themselves, so long as they contributed to the War effort and subscribed to the Imperial Truth (as evidenced by Fallen Angels, Unremembered Empire, and A Thousand Sons).
2) The Emperor all but abolished slavery (as evidenced by Fear to Tread)
3.) There is no free will in Chaos. Chaos enslaves you mind, body, and soul (as evidenced by Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness, Realms of Chaos: the Lost and the Damned, The Blood Angels Omnibus, Space Wolves Omnibus, as well as virtually any other piece of fluff featuring Chaos).
4.) Every modern government employs brainwashing to some degree. The Emperor is hardly unique in this regard, not even in comparison to other great leaders in 40k.
5.) That last sentence made no sense whatsoever, would mind clarifying? Hopefully in proper english?
I think he meant:
Space Marines have no power to be more than their superiors allow, and that this allowance it merely to be a puppet of the Imperium.
OgreChubbs wrote:The emperor was always the evil one. He is a tyrant and always was join me or die all those different from me die. If you come bringing peace and I do not like you, you die. He inslaved millions of world subjagated them to his law ,slaughtered all others. The chaos he speaks, Of that is evil allows you free will the right to choose your own path where the emperor brain washes his people.
I thought the americans on here would be really against the emperor since they acused the british king of the same things and revolted but I guess now it is him inslaving his own people lol. I.e. Space marines are not allowed to be anything more then what they allow them to be their puppets to maintain control of the weak.
I can't tell if you're trolling or just really, really ignorant of any 40k fluff ever published...
I assure you he isn't being offensive. It's a thin, sorry very thin, analogy but true nontheless. I would not tar all Americans with one brush, nor would I say this point has strong relevance, but I am sure that this was a point and not an insult. However, the first paragraph is very valid and I agree with it.
1.) The Emperor left most worlds to govern themselves, so long as they contributed to the War effort and subscribed to the Imperial Truth (as evidenced by Fallen Angels, Unremembered Empire, and A Thousand Sons).
2) The Emperor all but abolished slavery (as evidenced by Fear to Tread)
3.) There is no free will in Chaos. Chaos enslaves you mind, body, and soul (as evidenced by Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness, Realms of Chaos: the Lost and the Damned, The Blood Angels Omnibus, Space Wolves Omnibus, as well as virtually any other piece of fluff featuring Chaos).
4.) Every modern government employs brainwashing to some degree. The Emperor is hardly unique in this regard, not even in comparison to other great leaders in 40k.
5.) That last sentence made no sense whatsoever, would mind clarifying? Hopefully in proper english?
1: very true, he even allowed world's to worship him as a god for a short while, the monacharia happened.
2: true to a point, he abolished blatant slavery, but introduced slavery to his will, don't agree, I kill you, is still a form of mental slavery.
3: following chaos as a mortal is all about free will, then it snags you, but the initial choice is... A choice.
4: so so true.
5: I think he means that when following chaos you can do whatever you like, as long as it's furthering the goals of the chaos gods, the more gifts you recieve and the closer to becoming a deamon you are, your desires are subsumed into the will of the gods.... I think that's what he means?
OgreChubbs wrote:The emperor was always the evil one. He is a tyrant and always was join me or die all those different from me die. If you come bringing peace and I do not like you, you die. He inslaved millions of world subjagated them to his law ,slaughtered all others. The chaos he speaks, Of that is evil allows you free will the right to choose your own path where the emperor brain washes his people.
I thought the americans on here would be really against the emperor since they acused the british king of the same things and revolted but I guess now it is him inslaving his own people lol. I.e. Space marines are not allowed to be anything more then what they allow them to be their puppets to maintain control of the weak.
I can't tell if you're trolling or just really, really ignorant of any 40k fluff ever published...
I assure you he isn't being offensive. It's a thin, sorry very thin, analogy but true nontheless. I would not tar all Americans with one brush, nor would I say this point has strong relevance, but I am sure that this was a point and not an insult. However, the first paragraph is very valid and I agree with it.
1.) The Emperor left most worlds to govern themselves, so long as they contributed to the War effort and subscribed to the Imperial Truth (as evidenced by Fallen Angels, Unremembered Empire, and A Thousand Sons).
2) The Emperor all but abolished slavery (as evidenced by Fear to Tread)
3.) There is no free will in Chaos. Chaos enslaves you mind, body, and soul (as evidenced by Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness, Realms of Chaos: the Lost and the Damned, The Blood Angels Omnibus, Space Wolves Omnibus, as well as virtually any other piece of fluff featuring Chaos).
4.) Every modern government employs brainwashing to some degree. The Emperor is hardly unique in this regard, not even in comparison to other great leaders in 40k.
5.) That last sentence made no sense whatsoever, would mind clarifying? Hopefully in proper english?
First let me say I ment no offence if any was given. I just mean the emperor taxes all planets and if they dont pay their due well they get hit aka war of independance.
1: No the emperor leaves them in charge if they agree with him pay tythes.... Or how every you spell that word. If not you are not yet compliant and need better training.
2: the emperor uses slaves forget the name of the book the one with the paychers. In the horus heresy lone, the guy was chosen to help the emperium because of his gifts and when his gifts run out he gets chopped up. Aka slave do what you are told do what your asked, when your of no use we will make you into dog food. Aka slave lack of free will.
3: their is free will in chaos they all choose the path to follow, but as of anything follow a path long enough and your road is already laid down before you, because it is all you know.
4: yes , yes they do.
5 sorry type with one or two kids wrestling or climbing on me on a tablet some tomes what I would say comes out wrong. Think I fixed it
P.s. Yes chaos spawn thats what I meant, they are allowed to rank up be in charge and so forth but at the end of the day. They obey pr they are traitors there is no wiggle room or choice simply the illision of choices you can make to let you feel you are free. When you are but just a hamster in a cage with the choice to run on the wheel or to walk throught the tunnel. Both are allowed by the master but you have a free will to do either.
Where as in chaos you choose your path and do it well enough you are imbraced lucius loves perfection and to fight so the gods let him do it be the very thing he is to his core. Same for kharn he seeks to slaughter and a endless buffet is offered. Forget his name the doc from emperors children who likes to cut things open and improve them gets to do it forever necer limited. What you see as bound to a path I see as given free will to follow your goals. I always seen chaos embracing your most basic nature of who you are and nuturing it to the extreme til it is all you are.
OgreChubbs wrote:The emperor was always the evil one. He is a tyrant and always was join me or die all those different from me die. If you come bringing peace and I do not like you, you die. He inslaved millions of world subjagated them to his law ,slaughtered all others. The chaos he speaks, Of that is evil allows you free will the right to choose your own path where the emperor brain washes his people.
I thought the americans on here would be really against the emperor since they acused the british king of the same things and revolted but I guess now it is him inslaving his own people lol. I.e. Space marines are not allowed to be anything more then what they allow them to be their puppets to maintain control of the weak.
I can't tell if you're trolling or just really, really ignorant of any 40k fluff ever published...
I assure you he isn't being offensive. It's a thin, sorry very thin, analogy but true nontheless. I would not tar all Americans with one brush, nor would I say this point has strong relevance, but I am sure that this was a point and not an insult. However, the first paragraph is very valid and I agree with it.
1.) The Emperor left most worlds to govern themselves, so long as they contributed to the War effort and subscribed to the Imperial Truth (as evidenced by Fallen Angels, Unremembered Empire, and A Thousand Sons).
2) The Emperor all but abolished slavery (as evidenced by Fear to Tread)
3.) There is no free will in Chaos. Chaos enslaves you mind, body, and soul (as evidenced by Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness, Realms of Chaos: the Lost and the Damned, The Blood Angels Omnibus, Space Wolves Omnibus, as well as virtually any other piece of fluff featuring Chaos).
4.) Every modern government employs brainwashing to some degree. The Emperor is hardly unique in this regard, not even in comparison to other great leaders in 40k.
5.) That last sentence made no sense whatsoever, would mind clarifying? Hopefully in proper english?
First let me say I ment no offence if any was given. I just mean the emperor taxes all planets and if they dont pay their due well they get hit aka war of independance.
1: No the emperor leaves them in charge if they agree with him pay tythes.... Or how every you spell that word. If not you are not yet compliant and need better training.
2: the emperor uses slaves forget the name of the book the one with the paychers. In the horus heresy lone, the guy was chosen to help the emperium because of his gifts and when his gifts run out he gets chopped up. Aka slave do what you are told do what your asked, when your of no use we will make you into dog food. Aka slave lack of free will.
3: their is free will in chaos they all choose the path to follow, but as of anything follow a path long enough and your road is already laid down before you, because it is all you know.
4: yes , yes they do.
5 sorry type with one or two kids wrestling or climbing on me on a tablet some tomes what I would say comes out wrong. Think I fixed it
P.s. Yes chaos spawn thats what I meant, they are allowed to rank up be in charge and so forth but at the end of the day. They obey pr they are traitors there is no wiggle room or choice simply the illision of choices you can make to let you feel you are free. When you are but just a hamster in a cage with the choice to run on the wheel or to walk throught the tunnel. Both are allowed by the master but you have a free will to do either.
Where as in chaos you choose your path and do it well enough you are imbraced lucius loves perfection and to fight so the gods let him do it be the very thing he is to his core. Same for kharn he seeks to slaughter and a endless buffet is offered. Forget his name the doc from emperors children who likes to cut things open and improve them gets to do it forever necer limited. What you see as bound to a path I see as given free will to follow your goals. I always seen chaos embracing your most basic nature of who you are and nuturing it to the extreme til it is all you are.
1,2, and 3 are all supported by sources. If you wish to dispute them, then at least provide your sources.
5.) Yes, that, in a way, makes sense. However, there are many examples of Space Marines having lives outside of endless war. Blood Angels spend most of their offtime making glorious art; sculptures, paintings, poetry, etc. And it is a well-known fact that virtually every Bangel is an Artificer of some degree (as evidenced by Codex: Blood Angels and Blood Angels Omnibus). This is why their armour is always so fancy. Salamanders are allowed to retire and care for their families (as evidenced by Codex Space Marines), Ultramarines spend much of their time as planetary governors, scholars, or even clerics (as evidenced by Codex Space Marines). The key thing with Space Marines is that every Chapter is different, so you might have one Chapter that is insanely strict, with every choice made for the grunts, while others allow a certain degree of leeway.
