With the game now including Gargantuan Creatures and other units that belong in Apocalypse, does anyone else think marine-sized models having EW is a little silly?

I guess it just seems weird to me that force weapons and other ID weapons can strip up to 3 wounds off a 3-story Wraithknight, but can only ever inflict one wound to the diminutive Asurmen.

Eternal Warrior just doesn't seem to fit in the game correctly in my opinion. As you said, a Wraithknight would lose 1-3 wounds, and only a measly one wound to a tiny dude. It would also completely eat a Carnifex in one go.

But then you have D-weapons being bled from every orifice now. And Eternal Warrior does nothing against D-weapons (not counting the 6 result, which theoretically shouldn't have anything that can block it).

40k is a sci-fi high fantasy setting. EW is one of the few things that allows the heroes/villeins of the piece set foot on the battlefield and not just be insta-gibbed by some random AV weapon. It’s plot armor, given rules. Giant 3 story monsters aren’t the named characters, so are subject to the “normal” rules of the setting.

As a related aside, the scale of the game is spiraling out of control. Games with things the scale of GCs, titans, etc, probably shouldn’t have man-sized characters roving around on their own, but part of a block of troops. But that’s a rant for another thread.

 Nevelon wrote:
40k is a sci-fi high fantasy setting. EW is one of the few things that allows the heroes/villeins of the piece set foot on the battlefield and not just be insta-gibbed by some random AV weapon.

But, in that case, why is it only on some characters?

Why is it fine for some characters to be insta-bigged by a high-strength weapon, but not others?

 vipoid wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
40k is a sci-fi high fantasy setting. EW is one of the few things that allows the heroes/villeins of the piece set foot on the battlefield and not just be insta-gibbed by some random AV weapon.

But, in that case, why is it only on some characters?

Why is it fine for some characters to be insta-bigged by a high-strength weapon, but not others?

I know what you mean, I have a long standing dislike of the lysander character having ew for no real reason, where as an actual "eternal warriors" like lucius, typhus and Kharn, don't get it.

As someone else said it's plot armour, so good guys get it in spades, bad guys don't get it much.

I agree with the plot armor explanation so perhaps just all named characters should get it?

The problem is Eternal Warrior (or at least the effect, if not the name of the rule) is an artifact from the days when Warhammer was still a skirmish level game. At those times you could reasonably expect a particularly heroic or stubborn model from dying to, say, a rail gun to the face.

Imo it's Gargantuan Creatures, D Weapons, Superheavies and flyers that don't belong in the game. Especially D Weapons, as they literally go off the scale used by the game system (surpasing Strength 10)

 vipoid wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
40k is a sci-fi high fantasy setting. EW is one of the few things that allows the heroes/villeins of the piece set foot on the battlefield and not just be insta-gibbed by some random AV weapon.

But, in that case, why is it only on some characters?

Why is it fine for some characters to be insta-gibbed by a high-strength weapon, but not others?

GW is nothing but inconsistent in it’s rules. And a lot of times rules are added on apparently my marketing. We don’t want people removing their super-expensive models to one hit, so we give them protection. Other times it’s legacy issues. A character never had it, so they don’t get it now. And in pervious editions, you didn’t need it. These days with all the overpowered stuff on the table, it’s getting hard to do without.

So if you were watching a sci-fi movie, and the hero of the story went up in a fight against a three story giant robot.

You would put money on the giant robot? Because I wouldn't. Especially if the movie had a sequel.

The problem is that, as noted, there are now ways around it.

Deathblow hits from destroyer weapons should be....exactly what they say on the tin.

The thing that bugs me more is stomp - because one roll of a 6 removes the entire template, with no chance of survival. That really feels like the sort of thing Look Out Sir! should be allowable against.

You guys are all crazy. Eternal Warrior is a very important buff. Sure it's "plot armour", but it's also a strong asset for a model to have, giving them extra resistance versus some very powerful enemies. There are certain units in the game that critically use Eternal Warrior. The Harlequin Solitaire inverses the game's normal modus operandi; the strong you are, the WEAKER you tend to be against the Solitaire! A Solitaire is way more scared of your squad of Bolters than it is of your dual-shot S10 AP1 monstrosity, because it's T3, with a 3+ Inv, 3 Wounds, but has Eternal Warrior.

 Yarium wrote:
You guys are all crazy. Eternal Warrior is a very important buff. Sure it's "plot armour", but it's also a strong asset for a model to have, giving them extra resistance versus some very powerful enemies. There are certain units in the game that critically use Eternal Warrior. The Harlequin Solitaire inverses the game's normal modus operandi; the strong you are, the WEAKER you tend to be against the Solitaire! A Solitaire is way more scared of your squad of Bolters than it is of your dual-shot S10 AP1 monstrosity, because it's T3, with a 3+ Inv, 3 Wounds, but has Eternal Warrior.

But why? Why is the Solitaire able to shrug off attacks that can take half the wounds off a Wraithknight?

 vipoid wrote:
But why? Why is the Solitaire able to shrug off attacks that can take half the wounds off a Wraithknight?

Because it's constantly described as performing the impossible. Running up kilometre-high walls, being in two places at once, and narrowly avoiding attacks that occur at the speed of light. Every hit on the Solitaire is a glancing hit ;-)

EDIT: Same goes for others with Eternal Warrior. Yeah, it's plot armour. "This guy is extra tough, because reasons..." Abbadon can't actually survive a Particle Whip to the face, but the Chaos Gods smile on him, so *something* happens that keeps him from taking the full brunt of the attack.

EDIT EDIT: Look up "Death And Return of Superman Elijah Wood", and watch the video. Now, with that in context... "Because 40k doesn't exist!" you can make up story-reasons for anything with a little hand-waiving. You can design the system first, then the fluff can come afterwards. It happens in D&D all the time "Well THAT god wouldn't do this!?!" "Well I'm the DM, and I say in my world the god would do that."

"""Well I'm the DM, and I say in my world the god would do that."
"

I don't play with such DMs for long. "Because the DM says so" was acceptable in high school, but no longer.

 Yarium wrote:
"Because 40k doesn't exist!" you can make up story-reasons for anything with a little hand-waiving. You can design the system first, then the fluff can come afterwards.

You know that makes for an awful system, right?

 Yarium wrote:
It happens in D&D all the time "Well THAT god wouldn't do this!?!" "Well I'm the DM, and I say in my world the god would do that."

So, the DM is retconning all existing fluff? Not sure this is a point in your favour.

Some systems, such as HERO, are designed to act as "skins" for whatever you want to model. However, for most systems, the fluff is important.

 vipoid wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
"Because 40k doesn't exist!" you can make up story-reasons for anything with a little hand-waiving. You can design the system first, then the fluff can come afterwards.

You know that makes for an awful system, right?

 Yarium wrote:
It happens in D&D all the time "Well THAT god wouldn't do this!?!" "Well I'm the DM, and I say in my world the god would do that."

So, the DM is retconning all existing fluff? Not sure this is a point in your favour.

Doesn't make an awful system at all! If anything, this is what you need to do both as a writer and as a game designer that has a strong story element. If you allow your story to hog-tie your game system, you'll also hog-tie your story. Both need to be able to incorporate the other.

For example, in 40k, a Carnifex is Strength 10. Are you telling me that it's the exact same strength as a Knight? Of course not! But a Knight's unmodified Strength is still 10 because that's the maximum in 40k without going to Strength D. Or a Chapter Master of the Grey Knights fighting off an army of Bloodthirsters. Really? How in the game could that happen? It happened because the story-teller said so. The game then said "well, we still want the game to be fun for people going against Grey Knight Chapter Masters, even when they field a Bloodthirster", so they made the Bloodthirster pretty darn good.

The fluff states that Space Marines can spit acid. Where's the ability in the rules? It's not there because, wow, that'd require a big change in the game. They're also practically immune to poisons, can shrug off fatal blows, and their bolters are rapid-fire rocket launchers that destroy tanks. Two Space Marines can fight off a mob of Orks single-handedly. Where are these rules? They're not there, because that wouldn't be fun.

Same goes for other games. Magic: The Gathering makes cards, works with some fluff, but the card comes first. In D&D shooting fire at a creature or player doesn't usually cause them to catch fire (even if it's ongoing fire!) because that's generally unfun. In most strategy games you don't keep upgrades from mission to mission. Why? Because that's usually unfun. There are always exceptions, but they're exceptions when the game and the fluff reinforce each other. Like in the game Homeworld, where upgrades, ships, and resources do carry over! Of course, the game's also super-frustrating, because a mistake you made 3 missions ago means you're screwed in the current mission.

And for D&D, it's a narrative game. I build worlds using the D&D system. In my current game, Pelor isn't just the God of Light, he's the physical embodiment of Light itself. Kill Pelor, and the world would be thrown out of balance. In my system, Vecna's not a Lich, but the God of Darkness, Secrets, and Undead, and is the physical embodiment of Darkness itself. Why is it like this? Because I said so - but it's consistent within the world I've created. Am I playing D&D wrong? Am I only supposed to use printed stories and published campaigns? Is it impossible for Lolth to be a dude just because the book says it's a woman?

For TV's and movies... cars don't actually explode when they get shot, but most shows, movies, and even games use this trope. Why? Because it's more engaging than reality.

Eternal Warrior is a game tool. That's it. You can use it also as a fluff tool. It's best when the two work in tandem (like with Abbadon), but the two can also work independently when needed.

 Yarium wrote:

Doesn't make an awful system at all! If anything, this is what you need to do both as a writer and as a game designer that has a strong story element.

Sorry but that is utter nonsense.

As a writer, you should be using the materials you have - not just making up new crap whenever it's convenient to do so. That's a hallmark of lazy writing and poor plotting.

 Yarium wrote:
If you allow your story to hog-tie your game system, you'll also hog-tie your story.

Whereas making up whatever crap you like as you go along - regardless of whether it destroys existing fluff - always leads to amazing stories.

 Yarium wrote:

For example, in 40k, a Carnifex is Strength 10. Are you telling me that it's the exact same strength as a Knight? Of course not! But a Knight's unmodified Strength is still 10 because that's the maximum in 40k without going to Strength D.

Know what would solve this problem? Not having Apocalypse models in standard 40k. Then you wouldn't have the problem of models that are so absurdly strong that they literally go off the end of your strength scale.

 Yarium wrote:
Or a Chapter Master of the Grey Knights fighting off an army of Bloodthirsters. Really? How in the game could that happen? It happened because the story-teller said so.

I don't even know what point you're making anymore. Frankly, I'm not even sure you know what point you're trying to make.

Okay, let me give you the tl;dr summation:

Games shouldn't strictly follow the fluff. Leave that to movies, tv shows, and stories.

Games should follow the Rule of Cool. It's cool that Abbadon can tussel with a Wraithknight and win because he doesn't get insta-gibbed.

Eternal Warrior exists because of the Rule of Cool, regardless of fluff-logic. All other writers, from DM's to Joss Whedon, follow the Rule of Cool. Sometimes plot holes are allowed because something is so cool that you can circumvent the plot. I bet you Steven Spielberg knew that it didn't make sense for the truck to apparently fall down a 50' wall, when the T-Rex was shown to be standing in that same spot a scene earlier. He went with it anyways because the emotion of the scene, the cool-factor, was high enough to warrant the plot hole. At the end of the day, that's what is more important.

The Rule of Cool gets tedious, however. The Rule of Cool has made things progressively worse and worse in cinema and gaming.

It's getting a bit heated in here.

In my opinion, all named characters should get EW and ID shouldn't do 3 wounds off Gargantuan creatures.

 Yarium wrote:

Games should follow the Rule of Cool. It's cool that Abbadon can tussel with a Wraithknight and win because he doesn't get insta-gibbed.

But, surely the issue is that players will have different ideas of what constitutes "cool" - especially when they're on opposite sides of the table.

I mean, you think it's cool that Abbadon can tussel with a WK and win, but what about the people who thinks it's cooler (or funnier ) if he tries and loses - with the WK kicking him into orbit or somesuch?

Furthermore, that also brings us to the other aspect in that "coolness" is arbitrarily handed out. e.g. what if I think it would be cool if my DE Archon or Necron Overlord could tussle with a WK without being insta-gibbed? They certainly don't get EW, no matter how cool it would be.

If you want that sort of thing in your games, it seems like it would be better to do it as a 'fate point' system - where each player has a certain number of fate points that they can spend each game to reroll a save or attack, or remove ID from a particular wound. Effectively, let the players decide who gets plot armour - rather than just handing it out to a few specific guys.

Martel732 wrote:
The Rule of Cool gets tedious, however. The Rule of Cool has made things progressively worse and worse in cinema and gaming.

Valid point. It has to be respected as a tool. Like any tool, it can harm you. I'd say a bad use of the Rule of Cool are there being so many D-weapons. A few are fine... too many and you run into problems. I don't think Eternal Warrior has this problem. Call it personal taste.

 Yarium wrote:

Valid point. It has to be respected as a tool. Like any tool, it can harm you. I'd say a bad use of the Rule of Cool are there being so many D-weapons. A few are fine... too many and you run into problems.

Honestly, I think *any* D-weapons outside of Apocalypse are too many.

If you need a gun that's bigger than S10 AP1... stop trying to compensate.

 Yarium wrote:
I don't think Eternal Warrior has this problem. Call it personal taste.

In gameplay terms, it was probably less of an issue when characters couldn't just stand in front of a squad and tank all the incoming fire.

That aside, I dislike the uneven and, in many cases, rather arbitrary distribution of EW.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Imo it's Gargantuan Creatures, D Weapons, Superheavies and flyers that don't belong in the game. Especially D Weapons, as they literally go off the scale used by the game system (surpasing Strength 10)

Yeah, this. Or there should be a separate game mode where they are included in the actual BRB ( just include apo in it and put them back there. )

Sensible or not, I personally think EW being present is a good thing.

 Harley Quinn wrote:
It's getting a bit heated in here.

In my opinion, all named characters should get EW and ID shouldn't do 3 wounds off Gargantuan creatures.

Yeah, it should do all the wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yarium wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Rule of Cool gets tedious, however. The Rule of Cool has made things progressively worse and worse in cinema and gaming.

Valid point. It has to be respected as a tool. Like any tool, it can harm you. I'd say a bad use of the Rule of Cool are there being so many D-weapons. A few are fine... too many and you run into problems. I don't think Eternal Warrior has this problem. Call it personal taste.

There's nothing wrong with EW, since most models that have it now pale in comparison to our GMC overlords.

The problem is without EW it almost never makes sense to tool up a character, as anyone can get popped by being doubled out. I think this is a complicated issue because it would involve an overhaul of instant death is well.

Martel732 wrote:

 Harley Quinn wrote:
It's getting a bit heated in here.

In my opinion, all named characters should get EW and ID shouldn't do 3 wounds off Gargantuan creatures.

Yeah, it should do all the wounds.

No, I meant it should do only 1 wound to Gargantuan Creatures. If you're paying high points for a single model, and being such a large war machine, ID shouldn't matter.

 Harley Quinn wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Harley Quinn wrote:
It's getting a bit heated in here.

In my opinion, all named characters should get EW and ID shouldn't do 3 wounds off Gargantuan creatures.

Yeah, it should do all the wounds.

No, I meant it should do only 1 wound to Gargantuan Creatures. If you're paying high points for a single model, and being such a large war machine, ID shouldn't matter.

Except the points aren't that high in many cases. So they should fall to ID at the very least. MCs and GMCs need more drawbacks. They currently have very few.

GMC don't need more help at this point. Of the strongest units in the game, many of them are GMC whose only weakness is grav.

I would say just get rid of instant death by double str entirely. Not just for special character/ HQ models, but also units like footslogging nobs and tyranid warriors are just considered completely useless compared to an equal points in one wound models from the same armies. Ultimately people ARE going to take str 8+, vs people MIGHT take dedicated anti-infantry weapon, and those units that don't have the benefit of 5+ toughness and/or +2 or better saves are just naturally cost ineffective. It's even encouraged with Slay the Warlord, it's more to your benefit to go out of the way to kill your enemy's leader over anything else, even if killing him doesn't actually do anything else. So you have this situation where people are hiding their warlords in the back, when in the setting these characters are meant to be leading from the front with their royal guard, not cowering behind a wall of expendibles.

I'm not against weapons with Instant death, like force weapons or the hex rifle. These have actual drawbacks, since they're rarer, more expensive, and require more thought that "I shoved a melta squad in a drop pod and now your HQ is dead". D weapons shouldn't change, but they also shouldn't be in standard 40k.

I know some people want to keep that stuff around because it's more realistic, but I'm not sure if realism really helps in this instance

EW is one thing keeping assault based armies in the game. It's really not that hard to kill a T4-5 model with up to four wounds. I'd love for synapse to provide an EW bubble like it used to do.

Loathe it, hate it, can't stand, its almost on par with anything related to Orks.

Get rid of EW entirely. I don't care how heroic you are, if you take a direct hit from a tank's main gun you're dead. In fact, I'd even change the instant death rules to ignore toughness. Any weapon with STR 8 or higher is instant death to all infantry, period. Riding a bike shouldn't change the fact that you're dead in one hit.

This would require a massive change in point cost for so many units and further push the game to favor MC/GMCs. Not to mention steal one more aspect of fluff from the table top. The background makes it clear that some warriors are that tough and stubborn to keep going through pain and loss. EW to is something that can't be separated from the universe.

Stubborness won't help you when you've repainted the battlefield with well, you.

The way I have interpreted EW was as an indicator of toughness/elusiveness that doesn't compromise basic stat rules to accommodate. As an example, look at the Eldar Phoenix Lords. All of them are the epitome of their respective aspects who spiritually subsume the spirit of whatever Exarch found their armor to become reborn. In this instance, EW represents the undying spirit refusing to give in. Should such a spirit be snuffed by one shot that happens to be S8+? That doesn't represent a very impressive legendary character. You could improve the T value of the model to 6+ in order to avoid the most popular means of IDing a character (S6, S8 or S10), but then that deviates from the racial background of Eldar. Another approach could be granting more Wounds to the model, but that gets out of hand, as well, since a player can just tank up front, make most of the saves and take names rather than strategically advancing up the field as a spirit of a particular Aspect shrine would've done before becoming a Phoenix Lord. In the end, EW keeps everything balanced: you have a character with reasonable Toughness consistent with the racial profile it represents without too many Wounds to make it imbalanced.

The Solitaire was mentioned earlier as another example of "Why that?". In the Solitaire's case it's a matter of elusiveness. The low T is consistent with the racial profile. The inordinately high Initiative, Attacks, WS and BS represent the favored touch of the only surviving Eldar god still out and about in return for sacrificing his (or her) life to Slaanesh when s/he passes on. As a devout follower of the Laughing God, he's given a 3++ save w/ a low T giving it a fighting chance to dodge all those Bolter shots, but not too great to make it unfair. But to have one stray Scatter Laser shot take him out all at once? Not very impressive. So the Solitaire is given EW to represent his elusive nature, but he has only W3 to keep it within reason.

I like the amount of EW in the game right now. It used to be worse (remember old Synapse and Daemon rules?). The only characters who have it are those who have the fluff to back it up without breaking the game. The fact Gargantuans can lose up to 3 Wounds vs ID causing strikes is a balancing mechanism that plays into the blatant benefit those models have: inordinately high Wound counts. Give them no other effect from ID causing weapons and you wouldn't see many Gargantuans die at all, not to mention they have inordinately high Toughness to make small arms fire not matter at all. There's a lot of real estate to strike when shooting ID weaponry, so you're going to see meat fall in massive chunks. Elusiveness and small stature makes it harder to get off such a massive strike on a smaller target, but small arms fire shot in volume should and does hit and cause damage to them. Not so the Big Guys.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The background makes it clear that some warriors are that tough and stubborn to keep going through pain and loss.

Which is stupid background. No amount of toughness and stubbornness will keep you alive if a melta shot vaporizes your body.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tropic Thunder wrote:
Should such a spirit be snuffed by one shot that happens to be S8+?

Of course it should. One of the best parts of the tabletop game is heroic characters dying to random tank shots from across the table. In the grim darkness of the future there is no heroic survival against all odds, there is only anonymous death in the brutal meat grinder of attrition warfare.

Let's play "spot the imperial guard players". I imagine it's a lot easier to want the ability to kill tough enemies with ease when you pay little for your own HQs, and can take the highest quantity of high strength weapons.

While 40k is GRIM and DARK (which is two big reasons why most of us are here), It's also a character driven story. This is particularly true with armies like Chaos and Orks, whom entire structure is based around these powerful personalities, holding them together long enough to get something done. And while the idea "You will not be remembered in this time of untold war" is extremely important to the setting, it can be really contrived when you get down to specifics. How, exactly, did your guardsman with a meltagun saunter up to my guy and not die a million times before then? Or, why are you throwing all your artillery at one person and not at the army that's about to tear you to shreds?

Of course I care more about ID and how poorly it works mechanically. As I mentioned some units rely on more wounds to be tough against anti-infantry but no one bothers with anti-infantry anyway. All models should be viable and not the wargame equivalent of the "giant glowly 'feth me' sign" that special characters would be if they die to anything stronger than a hard breeze, And I'm particularly against Peregrine's idea of making high strength weapon able to kill anything they hit because that makes anti tank weapon the even more "anti-everything" weapon than they already are.

I think maybe eternal warrior might work better if it only came into play during 1 vs 1 challenges to cater for their exceptional skill in combat, e.g. Commander Dante's years of experience enabling him to just avoid the killing blow. Those EW characters are still susceptible to instant death firepower during the shooting phase etc.

What do you think?


Oh and I agree that the likes of Kharn and Typhus etc should have EW. The fact that they are alive after all those years of constant battle shows they are very tough to kill.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
I imagine it's a lot easier to want the ability to kill tough enemies with ease when you pay little for your own HQs, and can take the highest quantity of high strength weapons.

So don't over-pay for your HQs. Nobody is forcing you to take a 250+ point HQ.

How, exactly, did your guardsman with a meltagun saunter up to my guy and not die a million times before then?

Because a million other guardsmen died attempting the shot, and there are a million more in reserve in case that one fails.

Or, why are you throwing all your artillery at one person and not at the army that's about to tear you to shreds?

I'm not throwing all of my artillery at them. I'm throwing some at them, some at the rest of their army, some more at the army, a random shot at the character, etc. There's plenty of artillery for everyone.

 Peregrine wrote:
Get rid of EW entirely. I don't care how heroic you are, if you take a direct hit from a tank's main gun you're dead. In fact, I'd even change the instant death rules to ignore toughness. Any weapon with STR 8 or higher is instant death to all infantry, period. Riding a bike shouldn't change the fact that you're dead in one hit.

At the very least, I agree that bikes shouldn't improve a model's toughness vs ID. Honestly, I'm not sure they should improve a model's toughness at all.

 Peregrine wrote:
I'm not throwing all of my artillery at them. I'm throwing some at them, some at the rest of their army, some more at the army, a random shot at the character, etc. There's plenty of artillery for everyone.

EDIT: One thing I keep hearing is that Eternal Warrior represents a model's spirit or will to keep going or somesuch. But, to me, Eternal Warrior doesn't fit this at all. It seems an enduring spirit/will should be represented by FNP or an extra wound - something that will let the model keep going even after others have collapsed in exhaustion/pain or died of their wounds. What it shouldn't do is let the model keep going after being scattered over a wide area.

I'd have also thought that would suit 40k's Grimdark feel a lot more - an enduring spirit can only get you so far.

Agree with the obvious point that a man-size model should never be able to survive several lascannon/battlecannon/eaten by monster attacks and keep going. However this would need addressing by lower points for these characters, more for big guns, and maybe hqs being focused for support more than their combat ability.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
I imagine it's a lot easier to want the ability to kill tough enemies with ease when you pay little for your own HQs, and can take the highest quantity of high strength weapons.

So don't over-pay for your HQs. Nobody is forcing you to take a 250+ point HQ.

I guess that would depend on how you define "forced". There are HQs that cost 250 points or more, so if I wanted to use those models, I don't have a cheaper option (I COULD call my generic warboss "ghazghkull thraka" but he'll never really be Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka).

More importantly, for a lot of armies a barebones HQ model is also a useless one. For around 60 (usually more) points the only thing they bring to the table normally is a better leadership score and a better WS/BS, but they would only have a knife and a pistol which is not doing anything (particularly if he's hiding in the back to avoid giving Slay the Warlord). So I want to get him a better gun and a power weapon so he's not just trying to punch guys to death, some added toughness so he doesn't just fall over to bolters, something that makes him fast enough that he won't just die on the way to the party and perhaps something that makes him more than just a beat stick. So terminator armor + a vehicle or a bike and a power weapon will set me back +75 point and then something like a chaos mark or a boss pole or if you're willing to shell out for a chapter master for the orbital bombardment. And even that is based on taking cheap stuff and emperor forbid I take a better melee weapon or a better vehicle or a relic that'll make the model actually useful at the job it's suppose to do but now costs 150-200 points. And that's before considering what squad I would want to put them in to get the most out of their abilities.

And this is all very different from a company command squad or a tau ethereal, who cost 60 and 50 points respectively, and is useful without any further investment. Maybe this is a problem more specificly with how GW treats beatstick HQ units, but right now it's basicly a choice between a kinda expensive guy who might be good at what he's suppose to do vs a cheap one who definitely isn't. (or the third choice, taking something that's BS like Chapter Master Smashfether or Flyrants or psykers with Invisibility, which everyone agrees is cheese but you take them away what exactly do we have left?)

And I know you understand this, since CCS do get expensive and you've probably used Tau commanders before which have to buy their weapons as well, but the difference is that you can just hide the CCS or a buff-mander in the back of an army without any loss of effectiveness to your army. And not everyone can, or wants to, play that way.

How, exactly, did your guardsman with a meltagun saunter up to my guy and not die a million times before then?

Because a million other guardsmen died attempting the shot, and there are a million more in reserve in case that one fails.

And they're all armed with meltaguns?

Here's thing: If you did have to throw a million guardsman to kill my guy, I would be fine with that. My character dying is not what I have a problem with. That's just part of the game. As long as I feel like it's a good death, being forgotten in the time of untold billions is okay because at least it's my story to tell. It's dying like a chump that I have a problem. it's being the gag kill in someone else story I don't like. And then that makes me the chump. And you can say be smart about it, but in reality there's no way to stop it. If you want to kill my HQ, there's no way to stop it. Maybe I can make them a less appealing target by putting him in a large squad of chaff, but if all you need is that 1/3 chance of a hit on the scatter die and I'm dead then it's very hard to believe you'll ever pay more that the cost of the special character

(although I think you've said you're against 6th/7th edition style wound allocation, so I'm not sure if you include that with barrage blasts, so *shrug*)

Or, why are you throwing all your artillery at one person and not at the army that's about to tear you to shreds?

I'm not throwing all of my artillery at them. I'm throwing some at them, some at the rest of their army, some more at the army, a random shot at the character, etc. There's plenty of artillery for everyone.

Cute. And again, if this was represented on the table, I wouldn't have a problem. When all you need is a lucky hit with a demolisher cannon, or a single squad of melta vets, that's not really what you're describing

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
. And not everyone can, or wants to, play that way.

So don't. Man up and take a risk.

Sorry but as a DE player I have no sympathy whatsoever. You think you have it rough? I'm paying barely less points than you for a T3 "beatstick" HQ with crap weapons, useless armour and an invulnerable save that's lost the first time it's failed (assuming the HQ isn't paste anyway). Other HQ options include a T3 Succubus who doesn't even get a save outside of combat, or a T4 Haemonculus with only FNP to protect him. And you're complaining that your T4 2+/3+ character still isn't durable enough?

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

Cute. And again, if this was represented on the table, I wouldn't have a problem. When all you need is a lucky hit with a demolisher cannon, or a single squad of melta vets, that's not really what you're describing

Those melta vets or demolisher cannon still has to get through both the rest of your squad and your invulnerable save.

And, again, see above. At least it takes a meltagun or demolisher cannon to ID your guy - mine can be insta-killed my a Multilaser or Thunderfire Cannon.

Well

1: I don't play space marines, I play orks, so the best invulv save I get is +5 (or +2 for one phase with Thraka). And before you say "but warbosses are T5!", that post is based off of Peregrine's idea of making 8+ str weapons ID everyone regardless of toughness. I know full well that I don't give two gak about instant death due to that t5 and I would like to keep it that way.

2:I completely agree that DE have it bad, and if anything what I want (removing ID from double str) benefits you more so than anyone else. I DON'T like the situation now where people feel like they NEED to have 2+/3++ or better or their character isn't worth it, I would prefer that isn't the case

At this point I just want to taunt the DEldar player with three words. "Mantle of Ophelia".

Because... yes. I don't object to Eternal Warrior inherently. I just think that it should be the preserve of relics, magic items and supernatural effects.

A Daemon should have Eternal Warrior because it can just rebuild its body from the mist you just turned it into. The Mantle of Ophelia should grant Eternal Warrior because it carries with it the spirit of a saint who survived Chaos Champions, artillery barrages, heavy weapons fire, and then was killed by a lasgun.

Marneus Calgar should not have Eternal Warrior, because he's just a bionic Space Marine. If anything, he should be vulnerable to Melta because of all the metal.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
1: I don't play space marines, I play orks, so the best invulv save I get is +5 (or +2 for one phase with Thraka).

Sorry. Although, your talk of taking terminator armour in the post above did rather imply marines.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
At this point I just want to taunt the DEldar player with three words. "Mantle of Ophelia".

If you really want to taunt me with something, try the Living Saint. It's one more Jump HQ than we get...

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Marneus Calgar should not have Eternal Warrior, because he's just a bionic Space Marine. If anything, he should be vulnerable to Melta because of all the metal.

 vipoid wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
1: I don't play space marines, I play orks, so the best invulv save I get is +5 (or +2 for one phase with Thraka).

Sorry. Although, your talk of taking terminator armour in the post above did rather imply marines.

No worries I originally had "Terminator armor/megaarmor," but when I rewrote the sentence I forgot the second part. And I think it's fair to say most people just assume other people play space marines, since most people do play space marines to some degree.

I did also miss one of your points, so:

. And not everyone can, or wants to, play that way.

So don't. Man up and take a risk.

I do take the risk, because at the end of the day I usually do like to play a foot slogging mega warboss or SAG big mek, but at the end of the day I still feel like i'm paying more for a risky unit vs someone who's playing less without that risk

HoundsofDemos wrote:
This would require a massive change in point cost for so many units and further push the game to favor MC/GMCs. Not to mention steal one more aspect of fluff from the table top. The background makes it clear that some warriors are that tough and stubborn to keep going through pain and loss. EW to is something that can't be separated from the universe.

Considering MC/GMC cost more than most units price wise, I can get behind GW doing this.

EW still has a use in today's meta, albeit a slim one. I blame the insertion of Apocalypse into standard games and devolving all responsibilities of rules to the players. You could probably make EW have an effect on the tabletop, if you leave all your Destroyer weapons and spam lists at home.

Luke, you can have a 4++ or 3++, but the former is a relic KFF, the other is a 6 on a Perils chart. I wish Cybork Bodies were what they were before 7th.

The new IA:11 taunts me as a DE player tbf..£50 to play good DE? Uhhh, it's bad enough paying £30 for a Codex that rapidly aged.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

I do take the risk, because at the end of the day I usually do like to play a foot slogging mega warboss or SAG big mek, but at the end of the day I still feel like i'm paying more for a risky unit vs someone who's playing less without that risk

A few points on this note:

I think some cheap support HQs (CCS, Ethereal) aren't too bad, because they're at least fragile and useless in combat. I mean, even at the back of the field, a CCS is still a unit of 5 T3 models - one barrage weapon or a few Scatter Laser shots and the squad is gone.

However, then you have stuff like Jetbike Farseers and Tau Commanders. The former is an absurdly cheap and mobile Lv3 psyker, with built-in protection from Perils, an optional reroll, and access to the best psychic lores in the game (including the obscene Eldar one). The Tau Commander is stupidly durable for his cost and can either buff his unit with rerolls to-hit and Ignore Cover, or just shoot units to death himself.

If anything EW should be beefed up due to the uber shooty nature of the game now. I'd love to see some form of protection from SD.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If anything EW should be beefed up due to the uber shooty nature of the game now. I'd love to see some form of protection from SD.

I agree with this. Maybe imposing a -1 penalty to the Strength D or Stomp roll. Maybe even changed to:

"Whether by alien technology, being insubstantial, hyper-regeneration, or just plain old luck, this model is able to turn even the most grievous injuries into glancing blows. No weapon may ever cause more than 1 wound to a model with Eternal Warrior, regardless of how many additional wounds that weapon can cause, or whether it has the Instant Death special rule (such as a Strength D weapon, or Rad Ammo)."

 Yarium wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If anything EW should be beefed up due to the uber shooty nature of the game now. I'd love to see some form of protection from SD.

I agree with this. Maybe imposing a -1 penalty to the Strength D or Stomp roll. Maybe even changed to:

"Whether by alien technology, being insubstantial, hyper-regeneration, or just plain old luck, this model is able to turn even the most grievous injuries into glancing blows. No weapon may ever cause more than 1 wound to a model with Eternal Warrior, regardless of how many additional wounds that weapon can cause, or whether it has the Instant Death special rule (such as a Strength D weapon, or Rad Ammo)."

Actually the spacing and base size for scatbikes is what makes the TFC not so hot against them.

 Frozocrone wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
This would require a massive change in point cost for so many units and further push the game to favor MC/GMCs. Not to mention steal one more aspect of fluff from the table top. The background makes it clear that some warriors are that tough and stubborn to keep going through pain and loss. EW to is something that can't be separated from the universe.

Considering MC/GMC cost more than most units price wise, I can get behind GW doing this.

EW still has a use in today's meta, albeit a slim one. I blame the insertion of Apocalypse into standard games and devolving all responsibilities of rules to the players. You could probably make EW have an effect on the tabletop, if you leave all your Destroyer weapons and spam lists at home.

Luke, you can have a 4++ or 3++, but the former is a relic KFF, the other is a 6 on a Perils chart. I wish Cybork Bodies were what they were before 7th.

The new IA:11 taunts me as a DE player tbf..£50 to play good DE? Uhhh, it's bad enough paying £30 for a Codex that rapidly aged.

The problem is that GMC/MC are often to good for the points you payed for them. wraith knights, broadsides, stormsurges basically have no weakness outside of grav weapons, and if the supremacy armor is a sign of things to come big stompy monsters are only going to get stronger.

Martel732 wrote:
Actually the spacing and base size for scatbikes is what makes the TFC not so hot against them.

Really, honestly not trying to sound mean here; what did what I said have to do with scatbikes and Thunderfire Cannons? I'm not seeing the connection, but maybe I missed something.

I do think the EW should be done away with. Though that is because I feel like instant death should also be done away with. As many have said losing your cool epic hero to one shot to a Demolisher cannot is just not enjoyable. I'd prefer the mechanics be replaced by weapons doing multiple wounds.

So activating a force weapon causes it to do 2 wounds for ever successful to wound roll.

Further for weapon strength once the weapon wounds on 2s for every 2 toughness points lower the defender takes an additional wound.

For example S8 wounds

T 10 6+
T 9 5+
T 8 4+
T 7 3+
T 6 2+
T 5 2+
T 4 2+ (causes 2 wounds)
T 3 2+ (Causes 2 Wounds)
T 2 2 + (causes 3 wounds)
T 1 2 + (causes 3 wounds)

OR something like that.

This would actually make St 10 weapons better against most MCs as they would deal 2 wounds against T6.

Furthermore it means S8 still instant kills most Lower toughness models by doing 2 wounds, but most expensive characters have 3 or more meaning it would take 2 hits to finish them off.

It would also improve durability of T 3 heros as S6 would no longer do double wounds to those models.

So essentially a better way to say this might be

S+2 = wounds on 2s
S + 4 = Double wounds
S + 6 = Tripple wounds
S + 8 = Quadruple wounds

This also makes odd strength weapons better in comparison for doing extra damage (old double out rule meant that S6 and 7 and 8 and 9 were the same for extra damage) Now S7 does 2 wounds to T 3 but S 6 does not, and S9 does double wounds to S5 where before it had no special bonus against those models.

As for S D just make it count as S11 for wounding purposes, and remove the random roll for how many wounds it does, because that is dumb anyway. Meaning it would do 2 wounds to T6-7, 3 to 4 and 5, etc.

In the grim darkness of the future there is no heroic survival against all odds, there is only anonymous death in the brutal meat grinder of attrition warfare.

What a great line

 Furyou Miko wrote:


A Daemon should have Eternal Warrior because it can just rebuild its body from the mist you just turned it into. The Mantle of Ophelia should grant Eternal Warrior because it carries with it the spirit of a saint who survived Chaos Champions, artillery barrages, heavy weapons fire, and then was killed by a lasgun.

So... what you're saying is that models with the mantle of ophelia should suffer Instant Death against any unsaved wounds caused by lasguns?

unless you get rid of instant death, getting rid of EW would require a lot of HQs to have significant price drops. What is the main critique of almost every tooled up HQ or combat beast. It's usually that they are to fragile because they can be doubled out by a powerfist

HoundsofDemos wrote:
unless you get rid of instant death, getting rid of EW would require a lot of HQs to have significant price drops. What is the main critique of almost every tooled up HQ or combat beast. It's usually that they are to fragile because they can be doubled out by a powerfist

But then, a lot of HQs can either take PFs or equivalents themselves (and hence ID other HQs), or else kill sergeants and such before they get to swing.

And, once again I bring you back to stuff like DE HQs - which can already be IDed by a Power Maul. So, in terms of your HQ being IDed by a melee weapon, all I can say is 'join the club'.

Eternal Warrior is an important rule, but it's important to look at it's origin. Eternal Warrior was originally a Phoenix Lord rule, because in the fluff, that's just what they were. A Phoenix Lord *cannot* be utterly destroyed, they are fated to be there in the last batte agaiinst Chaos. But on the other hand, they didn't want to explain why a Melta Shot glances off him but the intention is still there. The idea is that when something that would disintegrate the character comes his way something gets in the way to prevent it from utterly destroying him. Maybe it glances him, knocks him unconcious, blows a hole in the ground he could fall into, whatever, all that matters if for the sake of the fluff that character cannot die. Yes it's plot armour, but it's an important part of the game setting, at least in the Phoenix Lords case.

On the other hand I do agree with your point that it is weirdly distributed and some times used as nothing more than a game mechanic. For example The Sanguinor having it and Dante not, or Lysander only having it because his theme was a Tanky Character. But the rule should not disappear, it just has to be applied better. And it should always remain with the Phoenix Lords.

**EDIT** And you *KNOW* the Dark Eldar dex has bad HQ's. I know it as well, we have tax HQ's and no fun special characters anymore. But it's not fair to compare other armies HQ's to ours when GW so obviously did ours wrong. If we complain about our HQ's then we are basically calling for other armies to be brought down to a similar level, something i would not wish on anyone because our HQ's simply aren't fun.

 Yarium wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Actually the spacing and base size for scatbikes is what makes the TFC not so hot against them.

Really, honestly not trying to sound mean here; what did what I said have to do with scatbikes and Thunderfire Cannons? I'm not seeing the connection, but maybe I missed something.

Just pointing out some of the things that the TWC should be good against, it isn't.

 vipoid wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

I do take the risk, because at the end of the day I usually do like to play a foot slogging mega warboss or SAG big mek, but at the end of the day I still feel like i'm paying more for a risky unit vs someone who's playing less without that risk

A few points on this note:

I think some cheap support HQs (CCS, Ethereal) aren't too bad, because they're at least fragile and useless in combat. I mean, even at the back of the field, a CCS is still a unit of 5 T3 models - one barrage weapon or a few Scatter Laser shots and the squad is gone.

However, then you have stuff like Jetbike Farseers and Tau Commanders. The former is an absurdly cheap and mobile Lv3 psyker, with built-in protection from Perils, an optional reroll, and access to the best psychic lores in the game (including the obscene Eldar one). The Tau Commander is stupidly durable for his cost and can either buff his unit with rerolls to-hit and Ignore Cover, or just shoot units to death himself.

Well, the Tau commander is only stupidly durable when you spend the points on it, otherwise he's just 4 T4 wounds with a 3+, who will therefore be instantly taken out by a krak missile.

This is one of the problems that Farsight has, he is only T4 with a 3+/4++, so every other krak missile to the face will kill him, on average.

You can make him into a tank, but you do have to pay for it. A commander with Iridium armour, stims and a shield generator (so the tankiest build possible) costs 150 points and doesn't even have a gun or any unit support capabilities yet. If we add in the upgrades required for full buffmander build (drone controller, CnC, M3S, PEN) then he's now 208 points and still has no weapon.

To be fair, lots of people argue Farsight should have EW because of his sword and whatnot.

It's not like GW is handing out EW like candy.

There's still too much of it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
To be fair, lots of people argue Farsight should have EW because of his sword and whatnot.

Yup but whilst he and other unique characters are left vulnerable to Instant Death, the Space Marines get a chapter relic that grants a 3++ invulnerable save, Adamantium Will and Eternal Warrior. So many of the unique, legendary characters of the 40k background who have survived countless campaigns and battles end up being easier to kill than some random space marine captain/chapter master.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's not like GW is handing out EW like candy.

They are if you play a Marine army.

While my Imotekh sits there and dies from a Helbrute in CC....

If Imotekh gets caught in battle with a Helbrute and LOSES, that's bad luck. They hit 4+, wound 2+, have to get through a 4+ and THEN a 5+. That's about a 14% of each attack getting through, and Helbrutes have TWO attacks!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If Imotekh gets caught in battle with a Helbrute and LOSES, that's bad luck. They hit 4+, wound 2+, have to get through a 4+ and THEN a 5+. That's about a 14% of each attack getting through, and Helbrutes have TWO attacks!

7

Yet a 14% chance to kill a SM character with a Storm Shield would be totally unfair. Because reasons.

Vipoid, I get the butthurt about Dark Eldar, but you have to remember it's a terribly written codex in the first place.

It is the ID mechanic that is outdated, not EW.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Well, the Tau commander is only stupidly durable when you spend the points on it, otherwise he's just 4 T4 wounds with a 3+, who will therefore be instantly taken out by a krak missile.

He's 4 T4 wounds with a 3+, that can be placed into a Crisis Bodyguard Team where he passes "Look Out, Sir!" automatically for 64 points(for two bodyguards).

This is one of the problems that Farsight has, he is only T4 with a 3+/4++, so every other krak missile to the face will kill him, on average.

Oh no, an independent character is squishy by themselves!
Seriously? That's your complaint?

Sure, he's squishy by himself--but remember that he can be placed into a Crisis Bodyguard Team of up to 8 models where he automatically passes "Look Out, Sir!". That is huuuuuuuuuuuuge.

You can make him into a tank, but you do have to pay for it. A commander with Iridium armour, stims and a shield generator (so the tankiest build possible) costs 150 points and doesn't even have a gun or any unit support capabilities yet. If we add in the upgrades required for full buffmander build (drone controller, CnC, M3S, PEN) then he's now 208 points and still has no weapon.

There is no other army in the game where you can spend anywhere near that number of points on a character to make them anywhere near have such great synergy...where they will have no weapon of their own.

Really not sure what your point was here. To make an effective character that isn't just an HQ tax for a CAD, you're generally going to have to spend points.

Also, even just Iridium Armour makes him a T5 model with a 2+ save and 4 wounds. Considering he can also jump back behind cover after shooting, how much more protection does he need?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Vipoid, I get the butthurt about Dark Eldar

Feel free to bugger off.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:


A Daemon should have Eternal Warrior because it can just rebuild its body from the mist you just turned it into. The Mantle of Ophelia should grant Eternal Warrior because it carries with it the spirit of a saint who survived Chaos Champions, artillery barrages, heavy weapons fire, and then was killed by a lasgun.

So... what you're saying is that models with the mantle of ophelia should suffer Instant Death against any unsaved wounds caused by lasguns?

lol, not needed, given she's T3 with only 3 wounds, and you can field twenty lasguns for her points.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Eternal Warrior is an important rule, but it's important to look at it's origin. Eternal Warrior was originally a Phoenix Lord rule, because in the fluff, that's just what they were. A Phoenix Lord *cannot* be utterly destroyed, they are fated to be there in the last batte agaiinst Chaos. But on the other hand, they didn't want to explain why a Melta Shot glances off him but the intention is still there. The idea is that when something that would disintegrate the character comes his way something gets in the way to prevent it from utterly destroying him. Maybe it glances him, knocks him unconcious, blows a hole in the ground he could fall into, whatever, all that matters if for the sake of the fluff that character cannot die. Yes it's plot armour, but it's an important part of the game setting, at least in the Phoenix Lords case.

On the other hand I do agree with your point that it is weirdly distributed and some times used as nothing more than a game mechanic. For example The Sanguinor having it and Dante not, or Lysander only having it because his theme was a Tanky Character. But the rule should not disappear, it just has to be applied better. And it should always remain with the Phoenix Lords.

**EDIT** And you *KNOW* the Dark Eldar dex has bad HQ's. I know it as well, we have tax HQ's and no fun special characters anymore. But it's not fair to compare other armies HQ's to ours when GW so obviously did ours wrong. If we complain about our HQ's then we are basically calling for other armies to be brought down to a similar level, something i would not wish on anyone because our HQ's simply aren't fun.

In the 3.5 CSM codex you could also buy the same ability via a daemonic rune for a character (well, at least against attacks that had a S value that was double or more their toughness), on the basis that they were marked by the dark gods themselves for greatness, and therefore hard to kill unless the ruinous powers decided otherwise...

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Let's play "spot the imperial guard players". I imagine it's a lot easier to want the ability to kill tough enemies with ease when you pay little for your own HQs, and can take the highest quantity of high strength weapons.

Shittiest HQ 2k16, they get instant-deathed by litteraly everything people spam nowadays, have no way whatsoever to get EW or decent invulnerable, there's a reason they're cheap.

As for high strenght weapon, noone cares about them nowadays, the real deal is high amount of shots with mid strenght weapons, something the IG fails at, having large blast beign actually a threat to stuff again would be nice.

The Wyvern is pretty darn good IMO.

At killing hordes of weak stuff, its not going to do much on bigger targets. And the heavy stuff might take a wound of an MC or something big, but then that's it, blasts aren't much of a threat.

So it's looking like mostly DE and IG are hating on EW. The Phoenix Lords are balls.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So it's looking like mostly DE and IG are hating on EW. The Phoenix Lords are balls.

Daemons also hate EW. But mainly because we use to have it, and it got despicably torn away from us :C

(my bloodcrusher is sitting in a corner weeping about the days that use to be)

Daemons can easily cast Endurance so No.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Daemons can easily cast Endurance so No.

Not when you're Khorne.

(bloodcrusher continually weeps)

There's always the option not to play pure Khorne.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
There's always the option not to play pure Khorne.

But then you are punishing players for their choice of a playstyle that should be viable, from a fluff perspective.

I've always advocated for Eternal Warrior to be more accessible. In a game like 40k where you are at the whims of RNG, a little bit of insurance for your favorite unit should be available, I mean look at all the units that are avoided because they get doubled out so easily.

I agree, make it so that every codex has a way for it be purchased, it's odd that some books allow it for points and others don't

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I agree, make it so that every codex has a way for it be purchased, it's odd that some books allow it for points and others don't

Well there are some HQ that it just makes sense that have eternal warrior; Kaldor Draigo comes to mind. He is supposed to wonder the warp slaying demons for eternity and every once in a while comes back to reality to help, so giving him eternal warrior makes perfect sense fluff wise. But there are other HQ that have it whom really shouldn't

I miss when the tallest unit on the table was a dreadnought. Most of the complaints in this thread seem to be coming from people who think wraithknights shouldn't be killed by anything. In the fluff, Angron takes a lascanon to his bare chest and ignores it. These are the kinds of things EW is there to represent.

 deviantduck wrote:
In the fluff, Angron takes a lascanon to his bare chest and ignores it.

This is stupid fluff that has no place in the game.

 deviantduck wrote:
I miss when the tallest unit on the table was a dreadnought. Most of the complaints in this thread seem to be coming from people who think wraithknights shouldn't be killed by anything.

If you're referring to me, no I don't think the WK shouldn't be killed by anything. I don't even think the bloody thing should be in the game.

However, since it is (along with many other GCs and such), it just seems strange that a minute character can be more resilient to ID than a 3-story monster.

I thought it was kind of like how if you shoot 12 Gretchin with a Volcano Cannon, ~2 of those (on average) will be able to just walk it off.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Shittiest HQ 2k16, they get instant-deathed by litteraly everything people spam nowadays, have no way whatsoever to get EW or decent invulnerable, there's a reason they're cheap.

Canoness says hi. She can get a 4++, but… since she can't do anything useful, that's just a way to waste more points.

 Peregrine wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
In the fluff, Angron takes a lascanon to his bare chest and ignores it.

This is stupid fluff that has no place in the game.

No, it isn't.

Yay for definitive statement!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Shittiest HQ 2k16, they get instant-deathed by litteraly everything people spam nowadays, have no way whatsoever to get EW or decent invulnerable, there's a reason they're cheap.

Canoness says hi. She can get a 4++, but… since she can't do anything useful, that's just a way to waste more points.

Canoness can get Eternal Warrior though, so she's not really relevant to the gakky-because-lack-EW debate.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Shittiest HQ 2k16, they get instant-deathed by litteraly everything people spam nowadays, have no way whatsoever to get EW or decent invulnerable, there's a reason they're cheap.

Canoness says hi. She can get a 4++, but… since she can't do anything useful, that's just a way to waste more points.

Canoness can get Eternal Warrior though, so she's not really relevant to the gakky-because-lack-EW debate.

77

Indeed, you'll have to wait for the 'gakky for a lot of other reasons' debate.

EW is cool because it makes gameplay still doable with all the buttloads of D-weapons around anything that wasnt GMC or superheavy would be useless

 Ubl1k wrote:
EW is cool because it makes gameplay still doable with all the buttloads of D-weapons around anything that wasnt GMC or superheavy would be useless

Given that EW doesn't protect you from D-weapons, I don't follow your meaning here.

The effect isn't always crazy.

But in some cases, it makes sense.

So you get some nasty ID weapon that need only nick the body to kill the body. Scary stuff.

You're a Librarian with that Force Axe. If you can get a wound on a Carnifex, you don't care how strong he is. You kill it.

So lets take that Force Axe, and kill Asurmen. Or rather the body of the person most recently consumed by Asurmen. So, your Force effect ensures the corpse is dead. How is that supposed to stop Asurmen?

The axe does hurt Asurmen, just like any Power Axe. If you do enough damage, you can still stop him. But you can't kill him. If Eldar can recover him, someone else will sacrifice themselves. Now there is a new corpse in the armor.

Why would killing the corpse kill the armor?

There is a lot of stupid in this game (WKs, S D, etc), but a Force weapon not killing a Phoenix Lord isn't that strange.

(Or imbalanced - look at their points.)

Force Weapons works by the user channeling their mind and warp energy into the opponents mind to extinguish it. A Phoenix Lord has a mind full of hundreds, perhaps thousands of Eldar. It would make no sense if a Force Weapon could over power that many Eldar minds.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Force Weapons works by the user channeling their mind and warp energy into the opponents mind to extinguish it. A Phoenix Lord has a mind full of hundreds, perhaps thousands of Eldar. It would make no sense if a Force Weapon could over power that many Eldar minds.

What about other ID effects?

They have the same effect they have on a Sentinal.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Force Weapons works by the user channeling their mind and warp energy into the opponents mind to extinguish it. A Phoenix Lord has a mind full of hundreds, perhaps thousands of Eldar. It would make no sense if a Force Weapon could over power that many Eldar minds.

I always heard it as *severing* the connection to the Warp-presence, disconnecting the physical body from the "soul" (which is why daemons aren't permanently killed by such weapons and can return later after banishment), in which case, I could see a force weapon working there.

Bharring wrote:
They have the same effect they have on a Sentinal.

Well, a meltagun can ID a sentinel.

Fluffwise, a Phoenix Lord is more durable than a Sentinal.

Mechanics-wise, a Sentinal didn't pay 200+ points for a 3W T4 EW.

Bharring wrote:
Fluffwise, a Phoenix Lord is more durable than a Sentinal.

Mechanics-wise, a Sentinal didn't pay 200+ points for a 3W T4 EW.

What's your point exactly?

A SM player pays 240+pts for a Land Raider, but that's still susceptible to ID and, unlike a Phoenix Lord, can't hide in a squad.

Is your point that a LR is no more durable than t4 W . 2+4++? Asurmen costs about the same as an LR. A TL troop weapon and some S5 in CC.

A 5-man Termie squad is cheaper, more durable, and also can't be 1-shot.

Smashbane is annoying, but at least he's good at more than just dueling. And is much more durable for about the same points.

Well Land Raiders aren't durable for the price, so it could be argued how 2+ EW is pretty durable compared to the Land Raider.

I won't argue, though, that any of the Phoenix Lords are SUPER durable.

Overall EW just needs to be more available, or just actually improve the DE HQ choices.

EW needs to well, die.

It will never happen.

 vipoid wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Force Weapons works by the user channeling their mind and warp energy into the opponents mind to extinguish it. A Phoenix Lord has a mind full of hundreds, perhaps thousands of Eldar. It would make no sense if a Force Weapon could over power that many Eldar minds.

What about other ID effects?

While I've already advocated that EW has been over sprinkled as a game mechanic rather than it's original purpose of fluff justification but in the case of the Phoenix Lords it's perfectly justified. EW is the physical manifestation of plot armour. A Phoenix Lord within the setting of 40k cannot be utterly destroyed, not because they are immortal, but because they are fated to be present at the final war between Chaos and Mortals. On the other hand, despite being Demi-gods of battle a Melta shot would likely destroy their armour, releasing the soul inside. So the Eternal Warrior rule reprsents something happening that otherwise softens the blow to not be an insta-kill.

I always heard it as *severing* the connection to the Warp-presence, disconnecting the physical body from the "soul" (which is why daemons aren't permanently killed by such weapons and can return later after banishment), in which case, I could see a force weapon working there.

The Eisenhorn book goes into detail about the production of Force Weapons, at the the ones Eisenhorn used worked by momentarily enhancing his Psychic Potential so he could use his mind to destroy the opponent. He used this on a Daemonhost and due to a unusually powerful Psychic Catalyst he'd found he was able to completely obliterate the Daemon, killing it permanently.

Some characters deserve Eternal Warrior, the problem being some people who deserve it have missed out and some people who don't can get it in spades.

Vipod,
I think we agree on our general tastes (small random chance for ker-splat? Things not being nigh invincible?), but not on the specifics.

EW is a little weird. Smashbane and Biomancy always felt wrong that way. I just think that one place it actually makes sense is a PL. Perhaps because I love mine a bit too much.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

While I've already advocated that EW has been over sprinkled as a game mechanic rather than it's original purpose of fluff justification but in the case of the Phoenix Lords it's perfectly justified. EW is the physical manifestation of plot armour. A Phoenix Lord within the setting of 40k cannot be utterly destroyed, not because they are immortal, but because they are fated to be present at the final war between Chaos and Mortals. On the other hand, despite being Demi-gods of battle a Melta shot would likely destroy their armour, releasing the soul inside. So the Eternal Warrior rule reprsents something happening that otherwise softens the blow to not be an insta-kill.

With regard to this though, isn't it something that perhaps shouldn't be represented in individual battles? In the same way that Archons, haemonculi and such are effectively immortal because they can be regenerated - but obviously this doesn't happen fast enough to help them in a battle.

(This is an honest question as I know next to nothing about Phoenix Lords.)

Bharring wrote:
Is your point that a LR is no more durable than t4 W . 2+4++? Asurmen costs about the same as an LR. A TL troop weapon and some S5 in CC.

No - my point is that the cost of a unit shouldn't be enough to get it EW, unless you say that *every* unit over a certain point cost gains EW.

Bharring wrote:

I think we agree on our general tastes (small random chance for ker-splat? Things not being nigh invincible?), but not on the specifics.

Quite possibly. If nothing else, I really dislike the uneven and arbitrary distribution of EW. But, more than that, it just feels weird when present alongside gargantuan creatures without EW.

Bharring wrote:

EW is a little weird. Smashbane and Biomancy always felt wrong that way. I just think that one place it actually makes sense is a PL. Perhaps because I love mine a bit too much.

Well, on that front, I'm always kinda irritated when Special Characters are given all the best rules and wargear. So, that probably doesn't help.

It does help when you read more into PLs and think about Force and other non-double-T IDs, but EW helping against Orbital Bombardments is odd.

By the points argument, I was just trying g to separate fluff from tabletop. I wasn't clear, and you were talking fluff.

Honestly, EW to me is outdated and archaic by existence. Rules wise it's interesting on paper, but when used it's rather pointless when you consider the amount of StrD weapons in the game these days.

If I were to personally change EW, It would be to have Destroyer weapons only cause singular wounds against Models with EW. Right now any forms of StrD can take a 300+ EW model and vaporize it without thought. If it were actually scary and held presence on the board again, it would make costly units and models there in, more prominent.

How often do we see Abaddon in games these days? Probably never. Probably because hes a melee beatstick that cant get into melee without a dedicated LR and retinue of Chaos terminators so you're looking at 350+ points on top of his already 265 point base cost. 615 points for a model that is supposed to get up in your grill and beat your face in isn't scary when it dies to a single Str D weapon.

Maybe even give the EW model 2++ at all times and FNP4+++ that isn't ignored by ID nor double toughness ignoring high yeild weaponry.

There are a lot of things that can be done to make models with EW "Good" but right now it's usually just an over costed gimmick and tax on already expensive Models.

Or perhaps ID and Explodes! should be a bigger threat to GMCs and SHVs?

I had a conversation with one of my best friends the other day, about how GMCs and SHWs function when fighting things like Infantry and how they interact with regular Walkers / Vehicles / MCs.

Right now you can't Stomp on another GMC or SHV, they're too big and basically immune to each other's massive fat-fest shenanigans. I dont see why we cant assume that a MC would be large enough a threat to also be immune if not at least avoid being stepped on by a giant freaking robot or GMC. Hell, with the new Tau GMC I have a FW Great Unclean One that is apparently stompable... Makes pretty good sense....

SHVs and SHW + GMCs have too much going for them in terms of free wound causing effects. They should be immune to each others Str D weapons imo and it should simply be str 10 against one another. Against MCs and Walkers + Tank models, Stomps should be ineffective.

I don't really have a problem with Eternal Warrior, but I'm not too much of a fan of being able to buy it for stuff. Smashbane is one of my least favorite things about 40K, though that may have more to do with the rules for bikes than EW...

 deviantduck wrote:
I miss when the tallest unit on the table was a dreadnought. Most of the complaints in this thread seem to be coming from people who think wraithknights shouldn't be killed by anything. In the fluff, Angron takes a lascanon to his bare chest and ignores it. These are the kinds of things EW is there to represent.

I agree. When this was a skirmish game it made sense. Ever since this became Epic 40k 2.0, some of the rules have gotten...silly.

When a Primarch can be insta gibbed by SD you know EW can only do so much for you versus certain armies... And people roll 6s. You are investing a lot of points in a unit that can be potentially wiped out with one roll of a dice and it happens.

If you remember the previous SW codex there is no current codex that hands out as much EW. It's still really good but not as good now.

 Bobthehero wrote:
EW needs to well, die.

It can't. It has EW.

Slap it with a D weapon

I agree with plot armour. More named characters should have it IMHO. Especially Lucius and Kharn.

It just makes sense that CSM SCs would have this rule plus FNP.

It does not, nothing should have EW

 Bobthehero wrote:
It does not, nothing should have EW

Why? Its literally plot armour.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
It does not, nothing should have EW

Why? Its literally plot armour.

Well I'd say that plot armour belongs in stories, not tabletop games.

Yeah, pretty much.

I disagree, I like it because it adds a bit off cinematic flair to the table top for the heavy hitters. I don't like the idea of calgar or Abbadon going down to a melta shot or a random blast template.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
It does not, nothing should have EW

Why? Its literally plot armour.

Well I'd say that plot armour belongs in stories, not tabletop games.

That's why we put both together

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I disagree, I like it because it adds a bit off cinematic flair to the table top for the heavy hitters. I don't like the idea of calgar or Abbadon going down to a melta shot or a random blast template.

I love it

 Bobthehero wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I disagree, I like it because it adds a bit off cinematic flair to the table top for the heavy hitters. I don't like the idea of calgar or Abbadon going down to a melta shot or a random blast template.

I love it

I'm questioning if you actually don't like EW because you play Guard (DKoK no less) or there are other reasons...

No matter the army, I think its stupid.

I'd be fine with reducing the price tag of SC by a lot if they lost EW.

 Bobthehero wrote:
No matter the army, I think its stupid.

I'd be fine with reducing the price tag of SC by a lot if they lost EW.

I'd be willing to keep all the SC costs exactly as is if we keep EW.

The typical player that doesn't like either doesn't have access or don't want to play against it. The thing is no army has access to everything. You just have to deal with it.

There's a piece of wargear that could give EW to my commander, I don't use it because I don't like the EW mechanic.

For the record I rarely use any models that have EW outside of rolling it on the warlord chart. I find it a needed rule to keep characters alive as it's too easy to double out hqs

Too bad so sad, get hit by an artillery shell or a lascannon? You're toast.

I also think HQ's with more wounds than regular troops is stupid, for the record.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Too bad so sad, get hit by an artillery shell or a lascannon? You're toast.

I also think HQ's with more wounds than regular troops is stupid, for the record.

Unless your Kaldor Motherfething Draigo.

Draigo isn't dying to a stupid Lascannon shot.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Too bad so sad, get hit by an artillery shell or a lascannon? You're toast.

I also think HQ's with more wounds than regular troops is stupid, for the record.

It's definitely odd but it also really shows that we shouldn't take game stats as more than loosely connected to the setting's lore.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Too bad so sad, get hit by an artillery shell or a lascannon? You're toast.

I also think HQ's with more wounds than regular troops is stupid, for the record.

It's definitely odd but it also really shows that we shouldn't take game stats as more than loosely connected to the setting's lore.

It has flaws, but its far better than the collection of books all saying contradicting stuff.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Too bad so sad, get hit by an artillery shell or a lascannon? You're toast.

I also think HQ's with more wounds than regular troops is stupid, for the record.

Unless your Kaldor Motherfething Draigo.

Draigo isn't dying to a stupid Lascannon shot.

Because of his shield, maybe, otherwise, tough luck.

 Bobthehero wrote:


It has flaws, but its far better than the collection of books all saying contradicting stuff.

I'll take those books over Majors randomly tanking 3x as many heavy bolter shots as their men!

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The typical player that doesn't like either doesn't have access or don't want to play against it. The thing is no army has access to everything. You just have to deal with it.

I want to give the benefit of the doubt about tone being lost in the text but that statement sounds really condescending. Personally I think EW is a decent mechanic but GW needs to be more fair about who has access to it. We have for example a Space Marine Captain with Shield Eternal which is fine as its a T4 model so it would be kinda meh to have him get insta gibed by a krak missile or a PK Nob, the fact that the Shield Eternal is a +3 Invuln is just that much more durability which is not inherently bad. The problem is when you have something like a Warboss which in the fluff is a big deal to tangle with in close combat but that Warboss can't get an Invuln save and doesn't have any access to Eternal Warrior. Sure its usually T5 with 2+ armor (Mega Armor) and the closest to EW an Ork will get is being on a bike for T6 but only has 4+ armor. It's just rather annoying when the message being sent is that X,Y,Z factions aren't important enough to be given protection to characters while A,B,C factions are.

 Vankraken wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The typical player that doesn't like either doesn't have access or don't want to play against it. The thing is no army has access to everything. You just have to deal with it.

I want to give the benefit of the doubt about tone being lost in the text but that statement sounds really condescending. Personally I think EW is a decent mechanic but GW needs to be more fair about who has access to it. We have for example a Space Marine Captain with Shield Eternal which is fine as its a T4 model so it would be kinda meh to have him get insta gibed by a krak missile or a PK Nob, the fact that the Shield Eternal is a +3 Invuln is just that much more durability which is not inherently bad. The problem is when you have something like a Warboss which in the fluff is a big deal to tangle with in close combat but that Warboss can't get an Invuln save and doesn't have any access to Eternal Warrior. Sure its usually T5 with 2+ armor (Mega Armor) and the closest to EW an Ork will get is being on a bike for T6 but only has 4+ armor. It's just rather annoying when the message being sent is that X,Y,Z factions aren't important enough to be given protection to characters while A,B,C factions are.

Or Daemon princes for that matter. I would say not enough things have it

 Bobthehero wrote:
Too bad so sad, get hit by an artillery shell or a lascannon? You're toast.

I also think HQ's with more wounds than regular troops is stupid, for the record.

So you would have Abbadon go down as easy as chaos terminator? The background often shows character level individuals to be much more durable and taking a lot more punishment.

 Bobthehero wrote:
There's a piece of wargear that could give EW to my commander, I don't use it because I don't like the EW mechanic.

Is it even worth it ?

Meh. I'll take that over stuff like a squad of SM's taking over a planet, thank you very much.

And for the record, I don't think PA fails 33% of the time, but its a good way to know what's better.

Cultist armor -> Flak -> Carapace -> PA -> Terminator armor

Or that SM's are stronger/faster/tougher than the average human, but outliners (Harker? Tempestor Primes, Elysians Veterans with some enhancements) can match the average SM in some physical ability.

Or that the average human is generally less capable than most Xenos, but not so much that they should roll over and die.

And then there's stupid stuff like EW, multi wound leaders and invisible stuff making weapons that would be good vs invisible stuff not work, amongst other things.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Too bad so sad, get hit by an artillery shell or a lascannon? You're toast.

I also think HQ's with more wounds than regular troops is stupid, for the record.

So you would have Abbadon go down as easy as chaos terminator? The background often shows character level individuals to be much more durable and taking a lot more punishment.

Totally

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
There's a piece of wargear that could give EW to my commander, I don't use it because I don't like the EW mechanic.

Is it even worth it ?

It only works for the first ID wound, but even then, yes, really, I've lost most commanders to some random STR 6+ shot. People rarely need more than a wound done to the guy, unless I get luck with saves.

It can simply be the Emperor wills his heroes to live on though which is plausible .

EW along with extra wounds is designed to represent a staple in nearly every story, that the main characters can take much more punishment than the rest of mooks. We see this in nearly every action genre nameless mooks go down to a shot or two, main guy takes a dozen and keeps going die hard style.

I'd like to see more armies having access to EW especially ways to give it to generic HQs. I also think named HQs should have EW.

Would also like to see more ID weapons

Melta should be ID against GMCs and Superheavies when within half range mark or at least the multimelta or better should.

 NorseSig wrote:
I'd like to see more armies having access to EW especially ways to give it to generic HQs. I also think named HQs should have EW.

Would also like to see more ID weapons

Melta should be ID against GMCs and Superheavies when within half range mark or at least the multimelta or better should.

I would like to see better rules, less "MCs that should be walkers or infantry," less GMCs and SHVs in non-apoc, but GW is bad at making games.

 Bobthehero wrote:

And for the record, I don't think PA fails 33% of the time

You have to roll a 3 or higher on a D6. There are 6 total numbers. It fails on a 1 or 2. 2/6 = 33%.

Yes it does. It's basic frickin math.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

And for the record, I don't think PA fails 33% of the time

You have to roll a 3 or higher on a D6. There are 6 total numbers. It fails on a 1 or 2. 2/6 = 33%.

Yes it does. It's basic frickin math.

I am sure he meant in the fluff. Don't get all angry because you divided a couple numbers.

And it doesn't matter if it is a grot blasta or an Eradicator cannon, it's always 33%.

 NorseSig wrote:

Melta should be ID against GMCs and Superheavies when within half range mark or at least the multimelta or better should.

Then nobody would ever take GMCs and SHs.

Will never happen.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

And for the record, I don't think PA fails 33% of the time

You have to roll a 3 or higher on a D6. There are 6 total numbers. It fails on a 1 or 2. 2/6 = 33%.

Yes it does. It's basic frickin math.

In universe, I meant, not in the game, I think that was pretty obvious

HoundsofDemos wrote:
EW along with extra wounds is designed to represent a staple in nearly every story, that the main characters can take much more punishment than the rest of mooks. We see this in nearly every action genre nameless mooks go down to a shot or two, main guy takes a dozen and keeps going die hard style.

Again, plot armour of that kind would be represented by an extra wound or FNP.

Eternal Warrior is the equivalent of Indiana Jones surviving a nuclear blast by hiding in a fridge.

To me it's a circular problem. The game has added more and more things that can kill instantly or cause many wounds at once. If that was toned down a bit, making it harder to peel off or instant kill models particularly t3 I'd be fine with EW going by the way side. But as is so many units would need massive cost reductions to compensate or a huge bump in invul saves.

ID just needs to be a mechanic where it inflicts D4 wounds (kinda like that Severing Cut ability that the Leviathan Dread has) and then EW ignores it. It places less importance on needing EW but still gives it value.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:
I'd like to see more armies having access to EW especially ways to give it to generic HQs. I also think named HQs should have EW.

Would also like to see more ID weapons

Melta should be ID against GMCs and Superheavies when within half range mark or at least the multimelta or better should.

I would like to see better rules, less "MCs that should be walkers or infantry," less GMCs and SHVs in non-apoc, but GW is bad at making games.

ID is too much (the dice could spike and be really bad) but I wouldn't mind melta and lance weapons causing 2 wounds/HP. It would make them dedicated tank/heavy killers, compared to the PG spam you see today, and also reign in some of the more abusive units (GMCs).
Maybe 2 wounds to GMC and +2 to the damage table for SHV, since SHV tend to be weaker than GMCs.

TBH I think every named Character should get EW standard, except Lucius, he should have some weird "the unit that kills him has to pass a LD-minus the number of wounds dealt this turn to Lucius- check or a random member is replaced with the Lucius with one wound" because that would be awesome.

The whole reason named characters BECOME named against all of the Generals across all of the galaxy is because they survive and excel.

I believe everything else shouldn't have access to EW, and ID weapons should do d6 wounds to GMC instead of whatever they currently do.

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:

The whole reason named characters BECOME named against all of the Generals across all of the galaxy is because they survive and excel.

I know I'll be laughed out of the room for saying this, but (Lucius aside) perhaps these characters survive because they didn't exchange their brains for marbles and shiny objects.

Hence, they don't go around trying to tank lascannon hits and such, even with Storm Shields.

 vipoid wrote:

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:

The whole reason named characters BECOME named against all of the Generals across all of the galaxy is because they survive and excel.

I know I'll be laughed out of the room for saying this, but (Lucius aside) perhaps these characters survive because they didn't exchange their brains for marbles and shiny objects.

Hence, they don't go around trying to tank lascannon hits and such, even with Storm Shields.

Another way to look at it is Eternal warrior on those units would serve as a way to demonstrate their intelligence.

 NorseSig wrote:

Another way to look at it is Eternal warrior on those units would serve as a way to demonstrate their intelligence.

By what possible measure?

near misses, other random plot events.

You don't near miss with a shell that has 75 meters lethal radius, especially not when you shoot said shell directly on target.

Depends, if its fired at a solitaire, is he really there?
The speed they move at in the fluff I think justifies the EW.

Some characters do receive plot armour, usually in the case of a ++ save.

However, this has become somewhat easy to obtain as of recent, so named characters are receiving EW aswell to show their ability to keep on going.



Having EW does not explicitly state they can take a cannon to the face, it could means a whole range of things.
Generally near misses as they move at the last second etc.

However, I highly doubt GW applied logic while creating most rules, so that's just my take on it.

The shell went off near them but a combination of toughness, determination, intervening cover and armor/shielding it didn't outright kill them. It takes a level of abstraction I admit but it fits with the view of an epic cinema. It's plot armor to be sure but this game isn't just mechanical dice throwing it does try to incorporate some background into the game.

 vipoid wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

Another way to look at it is Eternal warrior on those units would serve as a way to demonstrate their intelligence.

By what possible measure?

Marneus Calgar determines what will hurt him before it hits so he knows when to dodge anything lethal

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The shell went off near them but a combination of toughness, determination, intervening cover and armor/shielding it didn't outright kill them. It takes a level of abstraction I admit but it fits with the view of an epic cinema. It's plot armor to be sure but this game isn't just mechanical dice throwing it does try to incorporate some background into the game.

Toughness is covered by the toughness stat, determination is covered by number of wounds/feel no pain, intervening cover is determined by cover save and armour/shielding is covered by armour/invulnerable saves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:


Marneus Calgar determines what will hurt him before it hits so he knows when to dodge anything lethal

How does that work against, say an Archon who is a lot faster than Calgar?

Or protect Calgar from a railgun round which is travelling faster than the speed of sound and faster than his eyes can track so by the time he knows he's been hit the slug has already gone clean out the other side?
Or a Lascannon shot which travels at the speed of light and so he cannot possibly dodge out of the way after it has been fired as his reflexes can only act at the speed of electrons, which is much slower than the speed of light.

So some of you would be perfectly fine if Primarchs could be wounded by a Force Weapon and just die?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So some of you would be perfectly fine if Primarchs could be wounded by a Force Weapon and just die?

Why not?

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So some of you would be perfectly fine if Primarchs could be wounded by a Force Weapon and just die?

Why not?

Because Primarchs die to force swords all the time, right?

Hell I'd lower their T so they could be doubled out and die like they should.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Hell I'd lower their T so they could be doubled out and die like they should.

Lets make Carnies T3 too and hey, maybe Wraithknights while were at it. And lets give every weapon ID. Hell, lets just take armour out of the game entirely. Eh, maybe we should just remove models as we feel like it.

There's a difference between a carnifex and an oversized mutant

Your right the mutant would win.

Going by Horus Heresy novels killing a primarch is very tough

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Your right the mutant would win.

Going by Horus Heresy novels killing a primarch is very tough

Unless you have the right poison


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So some of you would be perfectly fine if Primarchs could be wounded by a Force Weapon and just die?

Why not?

Because Primarchs die to force swords all the time, right?

How many of them have been hit by one, in the fluff?

 Bobthehero wrote:
There's a difference between a carnifex and an oversized mutant

Not really. Perturabo is pretty big and so is Ferrus Headless.

 Bobthehero wrote:
You don't near miss with a shell that has 75 meters lethal radius, especially not when you shoot said shell directly on target.

Said shell (assuming we're talking battle cannon/earthshaker?) would just bounce off the model's artificer armour anyway, as if it was little more than a bayonette.

Which is stupid but eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh

That's why medusas are a thing, I guess. And I think stuff like Manticore Missiles, Battlecannons and Earthshakers should be able to penetrate any armor worn by infantry, but we can't have nice things, apparently.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Said shell (assuming we're talking battle cannon/earthshaker?) would just bounce off the model's artificer armour anyway, as if it was little more than a bayonette.

This. It's important to remember that high-end power armor is really durable. It's quite likely that the chapter will be able to hose out the bloody remains of a space marine after their armor is hit by an earthshaker shell and give the priceless relic to another worthy member of the chapter. This is why you should always follow an artillery barrage with dedicated anti-armor weapons to destroy the armor and prevent it from being used against you in the future.

Or what Peregrine said, that works too, eh.

As long as everything falls flat before your artillery you're happy, eh?

Mhmm, haven't played much with my DKoK these past times, anyways, mostly been rolling out with my Scions.

So uh... make hotshot str: D

Hotshots bounce off artificer armour as well, even if they had been D.

I love AA.

I can give rending to my guns.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

Another way to look at it is Eternal warrior on those units would serve as a way to demonstrate their intelligence.

By what possible measure?

Marneus Calgar determines what will hurt him before it hits so he knows when to dodge anything lethal

I find it worrying that you apparently see nothing wrong with that statement.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
near misses, other random plot events.

Firstly, isn't that the point of a to-wound roll of 1 always failing? Second, why is it that "random plot events" can only protect arbitrary characters? Why can't they protect an Archon? Or a SM sergeant destined for greatness? Or even an IG sergeant?

 Bobthehero wrote:
but we can't have nice things, apparently.

Which is hilarious coming from you, since the crux of your argument is "I don't like it that other people are allowed to have nice things".

I think what people need to remember is that this is a game. As such it is designed in a specific way, currently that design involves lots of high cost special characters, many of which due to lack of EW are garbage. Essentially if it is highly likely for my 200+ point character to die before it does anything it won't get taken. Is it "realistic" for these characters to tank artillery shells, probably not, but in general dodging/evasion is not part of the game either.

If you are going to eliminate things like multiple wounds and EW you should also eliminate high cost leaders all together and have most HQ models run 50 points because all the fancy offensive stats in the world don't matter when you are dead.

I said it earlier in the thread both EW and instant death should be done away with in game and be replaced by a system where weapons due more wounds to a target based on the difference between the weapon strength and the targets toughness.

 vipoid wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

Another way to look at it is Eternal warrior on those units would serve as a way to demonstrate their intelligence.

By what possible measure?

Marneus Calgar determines what will hurt him before it hits so he knows when to dodge anything lethal

I find it worrying that you apparently see nothing wrong with that statement

Thats what my Spiritual liege said and I'm gonna take it

Breng77 wrote:
I think what people need to remember is that this is a game.

Agreed - hence there should be no plot armour.

Breng77 wrote:
As such it is designed in a specific way

'Badly.'

Breng77 wrote:
currently that design involves lots of high cost special characters, many of which due to lack of EW are garbage. Essentially if it is highly likely for my 200+ point character to die before it does anything it won't get taken.

Another way to look at it is that characters with EW make all other characters look bad by being ridiculously survivable for their cost.

Breng77 wrote:

If you are going to eliminate things like multiple wounds and EW you should also eliminate high cost leaders all together and have most HQ models run 50 points because all the fancy offensive stats in the world don't matter when you are dead.

Well, I certainly wouldn't want to remove multiple wounds.

Breng77 wrote:

I said it earlier in the thread both EW and instant death should be done away with in game and be replaced by a system where weapons due more wounds to a target based on the difference between the weapon strength and the targets toughness.

How would that work? As in, how many points over the target's toughness would a weapon need to be to cause 2 wounds or 3?

I'm presuming it's not a 1:1 ratio otherwise it might as well be ID in most cases.

 vipoid wrote:
With the game now including Gargantuan Creatures and other units that belong in Apocalypse, does anyone else think marine-sized models having EW is a little silly?

No, I think that including GCs and other unitst hat belong in Apocalypse is silly.

 Melissia wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
With the game now including Gargantuan Creatures and other units that belong in Apocalypse, does anyone else think marine-sized models having EW is a little silly?

No, I think that including GCs and other unitst hat belong in Apocalypse is silly.

Can't argue with that.

Man, the hate is strong in this thread. Gooooood, goooood.

But seriously, OT, none of you would have a problem if your named characters died like chaff in the wind? I could live with that change, but my 300 point Chapter Master should now cost WAY less.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Man, the hate is strong in this thread. Gooooood, goooood.

But seriously, OT, none of you would have a problem if your named characters died like chaff in the wind? I could live with that change, but my 300 point Chapter Master should now cost WAY less.

I play tau, my named characters already do that

 jreilly89 wrote:
Man, the hate is strong in this thread. Gooooood, goooood.

But seriously, OT, none of you would have a problem if your named characters died like chaff in the wind? I could live with that change, but my 300 point Chapter Master should now cost WAY less.

So, what exactly is not just killing but Instant Deathing all these named characters with no problems whatsoever?

Let's talk about Chapter Masters for a moment. I don't know what build you're using, but I've just made a biker one on battlescribe for 50pts less with T5, 4 wounds (obviously), a 2+/3+, and a S7 weapon that strikes at initiative with Digital Weapons (can even save 15pts by going Power Fist/Lightning Claw instead). And I haven't even applied Chapter Tactics yet.

Point being, why is he apparently so badly in need of EW? He can already take a Lascannon or Bright Lance to the face and shrug it off (assuming it even gets past his 3++). And, in fact, even a weapon that can ID him still has to get past that 3++. And that's before you even get into the protection offered by his squad (and LoS).

 vipoid wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Man, the hate is strong in this thread. Gooooood, goooood.

But seriously, OT, none of you would have a problem if your named characters died like chaff in the wind? I could live with that change, but my 300 point Chapter Master should now cost WAY less.

So, what exactly is not just killing but Instant Deathing all these named characters with no problems whatsoever?

Let's talk about Chapter Masters for a moment. I don't know what build you're using, but I've just made a biker one on battlescribe for 50pts less with T5, 4 wounds (obviously), a 2+/3+, and a S7 weapon that strikes at initiative with Digital Weapons (can even save 15pts by going Power Fist/Lightning Claw instead). And I haven't even applied Chapter Tactics yet.

Point being, why is he apparently so badly in need of EW? He can already take a Lascannon or Bright Lance to the face and shrug it off (assuming it even gets past his 3++). And, in fact, even a weapon that can ID him still has to get past that 3++. And that's before you even get into the protection offered by his squad (and LoS).

EW in this case would be for Force and the rare S10. In fact, some would argue that, if he's on a Bike, EW is less needed. However, assuming he's on foot, he's more likely to need it. Way too easy to get enough S8+ that the minimum for a Chapter Master, 130, is risky.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

EW in this case would be for Force and the rare S10.

But why does he need it?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
In fact, some would argue that, if he's on a Bike, EW is less needed. However, assuming he's on foot, he's more likely to need it. Way too easy to get enough S8+ that the minimum for a Chapter Master, 130, is risky.

But, again, why should Chapter Masters get EW and not other HQs?

You talk about S8-9 weapons being too much of a risk when he isn't on a bike, but what about characters who need bikes just to reach T4? If they can manage without EW then so can a Chapter Master.

Or, if Chapter Masters can't cope without EW, then other characters should also have EW. And when I say "characters" I mean actual customisable HQs, not 'one SC in the army'.

 vipoid wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Man, the hate is strong in this thread. Gooooood, goooood.

But seriously, OT, none of you would have a problem if your named characters died like chaff in the wind? I could live with that change, but my 300 point Chapter Master should now cost WAY less.

So, what exactly is not just killing but Instant Deathing all these named characters with no problems whatsoever?

Let's talk about Chapter Masters for a moment. I don't know what build you're using, but I've just made a biker one on battlescribe for 50pts less with T5, 4 wounds (obviously), a 2+/3+, and a S7 weapon that strikes at initiative with Digital Weapons (can even save 15pts by going Power Fist/Lightning Claw instead). And I haven't even applied Chapter Tactics yet.

Point being, why is he apparently so badly in need of EW? He can already take a Lascannon or Bright Lance to the face and shrug it off (assuming it even gets past his 3++). And, in fact, even a weapon that can ID him still has to get past that 3++. And that's before you even get into the protection offered by his squad (and LoS).

Because he's paying all those points for the protection? Let's look at a kitted out Chapter Master on a bike. With all his upgrades how much does he run? ~300? He should be able to take all those shoots and do that much damage, that's roughly 1/6 of your force (if playing 1850 points) for one guy!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

EW in this case would be for Force and the rare S10.

But why does he need it?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
In fact, some would argue that, if he's on a Bike, EW is less needed. However, assuming he's on foot, he's more likely to need it. Way too easy to get enough S8+ that the minimum for a Chapter Master, 130, is risky.

But, again, why should Chapter Masters get EW and not other HQs?

You talk about S8-9 weapons being too much of a risk when he isn't on a bike, but what about characters who need bikes just to reach T4? If they can manage without EW then so can a Chapter Master.

Or, if Chapter Masters can't cope without EW, then other characters should also have EW. And when I say "characters" I mean actual customisable HQs, not 'one SC in the army'.

I think all HQ's should get Eternal Warrior. It's crazy stupid guys like Azrael, Asmodai, Librarians, etc. don't, but random Chapter Master does.

 jreilly89 wrote:

Because he's paying all those points for the protection?

No, he's also paying a good deal of points for mobility and weapons. And, you know, the orbital bombardment.

Furthermore, T5 4 wounds and a 2+/3+ save is more than most armies can get even with their most heavily-armoured special characters - and few of those boast a 12" move and a S7 sword.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Let's look at a kitted out Chapter Master on a bike. With all his upgrades how much does he run? ~300?

Even a heavily kitted one is only 250. If you stick to basics he's barely over 200pts.

 jreilly89 wrote:
He should be able to take all those shoots and do that much damage, that's roughly 1/6 of your force (if playing 1850 points) for one guy!

Again, you're acting as if he dies to a stiff breeze without EW. He's still T5 4 wounds with a 2+/3+ save.

How the hell do you think other armies cope? Ones whose characters can't even come close to that level of protection, no matter how much they pay.

Chapter Masters fight in melee unlike Farseers, Ethereals, buffmanders and a whole host of other cowardly HQ.

CMs fight in CC, so shouldn't be IDed by Krak missiles on foot or Railgun shots on bikes, but Farseers and Autarchs fight at range, so should be IDed by Plasma Guns and Krak Grenades on foot?

How would that work? As in, how many points over the target's toughness would a weapon need to be to cause 2 wounds or 3?

I'm presuming it's not a 1:1 ratio otherwise it might as well be ID in most cases.

I explained my thought back on P. 2 of the thread. Essentially It ammounted to

S = T wound on 4s
S = T+1 Wound on 3s
S= T+2 or 3 wound on 2s
S = T + 4 or 5 wound on 2 causes 2 wounds
S = T + 6 or 7 wound on 2s causes 3 wounds
etc.

So for instance a T 4 model wound take 2 wounds from a S8 gun, which will instant death some models but not all. IT also improves T3 models by meaning S6 wound not cause 2 wounds, meaning it would take S7 to cause multiple wounds.


It is not a perfect system but it is better IMO than the current one.

Alternatively if you wanted to keep instant death and EW in the game but wanted some change a possibility would be to make Instant death causing attacks reduce EW models to a single wound.

Another way to look at it is that characters with EW make all other characters look bad by being ridiculously survivable for their cost

I don't feel that this is the case at all. IT makes them look bad because they are bad, they cost too many points and die to easily compared to noncharacter models/units of equal cost. Lets just look at say a 75 point HQ choice, without eternal warrior it is likely less durable than most units of equal cost due to instant death and having fewer wounds.

There's lots S10 in the game.

Demolisher
DCCW
GMC
SHW
SW IC on TW mount with fist or hammer
Daemonhammer with Hammerhand
Etc.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
There's lots S10 in the game.

Demolisher
DCCW
GMC
SHW
SW IC on TW mount with fist or hammer
Daemonhammer with Hammerhand
Etc.

There's vastly more S8-9 and S6-7. A T5 character already gets EW against those.

Breng77 wrote:

I explained my thought back on P. 2 of the thread. Essentially It ammounted to

S = T wound on 4s
S = T+1 Wound on 3s
S= T+2 or 3 wound on 2s
S = T + 4 or 5 wound on 2 causes 2 wounds
S = T + 6 or 7 wound on 2s causes 3 wounds
etc.

So for instance a T 4 model wound take 2 wounds from a S8 gun, which will instant death some models but not all. IT also improves T3 models by meaning S6 wound not cause 2 wounds, meaning it would take S7 to cause multiple wounds.


It is not a perfect system but it is better IMO than the current one.

I wouldn't object to that system.

One thing though - how would you do Force Weapons (and other ID stuff that doesn't involve strength)? Or, would they just be removed.

I just feel sorry for us Nid players, where is our smattering of EW rules?
Oh right yeah.....

 vipoid wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

Because he's paying all those points for the protection?

No, he's also paying a good deal of points for mobility and weapons. And, you know, the orbital bombardment.

Furthermore, T5 4 wounds and a 2+/3+ save is more than most armies can get even with their most heavily-armoured special characters - and few of those boast a 12" move and a S7 sword.

Then blame GW for poor rules writing and for making SM their poster boys to sell the game. I'm all for leveling the playing field, but I think removing EW is a step in the wrong direction.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Let's look at a kitted out Chapter Master on a bike. With all his upgrades how much does he run? ~300?

Even a heavily kitted one is only 250. If you stick to basics he's barely over 200pts.

Compare a 200pt CM to a PL.

2+/3++ vs 2+/some have 4++ others don't
T5 vs T4
W4 vs W3
12" move vs mostly 6" move
S8ap2 I1 vs S4/5 AP2/3 I7
4A vs 4A
No EW vs EW

Clearly they get a lot for 200pts.

So you

 jreilly89 wrote:

That's still a heavy chunk of points, considering a Wraithknight is not much over that and a Riptide is around the same for better survivability and firepower.

Yes, because we all know Wraithknights are the epitome of balance.

 jreilly89 wrote:

Because if a guy really is rocking that much gear, he should be able to take that much damage.

And he can. Even without EW he can tank an absolutely ridiculous amount of firepower.

It takes 22 lascannon shots to kill this guy. That's 4 more than it takes to kill a land raider (which also have a small chance to get IDed by one), and 1 more than it takes to kill a Riptide with FNP. And, this isn't even including the Chapter Master's ability to divert wounds to his squad or get FNP (either through Iron Hands or via an Apothecary in the squad) or IWND.

 jreilly89 wrote:

Also, I think other armies cope by not investing that much in their HQs and spamming their best units.

So do the same. No one is forcing you to take a 250pt Chapter Master.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Even without EW, some armies can still have some nasty tricks up their sleeves

You mean like a T5 2+/3+ 4-wound character on a bike?

 jreilly89 wrote:

Also, back up with the hostility. I'm not saying you wrote the rules, I'm just saying getting red of EW would open up a whole new list of problems.

Then stop acting so entitled and maybe take a minute to appreciate what you've got. You have probably the single most durable non-SC in the game (not to mention also being one of the fastest and hardest hitting) - a character most other races would kill for - yet that's still not good enough for you. No, he has to be able to headbutt Demolisher Shells and take Force Weapons on the chin as well.

So basically this all comes down to jealousy. :(

A lot of armies have great things besides EW... Go complain about those.

Also that is really far fetched to say it takes 22 Lascannon shots... The first four could do it.

 vipoid wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

That's still a heavy chunk of points, considering a Wraithknight is not much over that and a Riptide is around the same for better survivability and firepower.

Yes, because we all know Wraithknights are the epitome of balance.

Right, my bad for analyzing the game and realizing that EW isn't the problem.

 jreilly89 wrote:

Because if a guy really is rocking that much gear, he should be able to take that much damage.

And he can. Even without EW he can tank an absolutely ridiculous amount of firepower.

It takes 22 lascannon shots to kill this guy. That's 4 more than it takes to kill a land raider (which also have a small chance to get IDed by one), and 1 more than it takes to kill a Riptide with FNP. And, this isn't even including the Chapter Master's ability to divert wounds to his squad or get FNP (either through Iron Hands or via an Apothecary in the squad) or IWND.

Laughable. One Vindicator will knock him flat without EW. Also, vehicles are woefully vulnerable, but nice try. And what's your point? Chapter Masters are broken when you take them to the cheesiest of extremes, but the same can be said for a lot of 40k. Again, I don't think EW is the issue here.

 jreilly89 wrote:

Also, I think other armies cope by not investing that much in their HQs and spamming their best units.

So do the same. No one is forcing you to take a 250pt Chapter Master.

Or just give every HQ EW and then everything's fine.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Even without EW, some armies can still have some nasty tricks up their sleeves

You mean like a T5 2+/3+ 4-wound character on a bike?

Cute.

 jreilly89 wrote:

Also, back up with the hostility. I'm not saying you wrote the rules, I'm just saying getting red of EW would open up a whole new list of problems.

Then stop acting so entitled and maybe take a minute to appreciate what you've got. You have probably the single most durable non-SC in the game (not to mention also being one of the fastest and hardest hitting) - a character most other races would kill for - yet that's still not good enough for you. No, he has to be able to headbutt Demolisher Shells and take Force Weapons on the chin as well.

That's hilarious considering I play Orks, Daemons, and DA. In DA, the ONLY one who gets EW is Sammael, who I don't even run, so way to make quick judgements.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So basically this all comes down to jealousy. :(

A lot of armies have great things besides EW... Go complain about those.

Also that is really far fetched to say it takes 22 Lascannon shots... The first four could do it.

Essentially. They're mad SM get all the best rules. EW isn't the problem.

 vipoid wrote:

But why does he need it?

Because he's a hero space marine and therefore needs to be able to reliably beat every other army's HQ in heroic 1-on-1 combat in order for The Narrative to be properly Forged? How else is he going to kill all the Chaos Lords? 1 extra Wound and 1 extra Attack and a better armor save and a better invulnerable save isn't always enough.

Just make it buyable for all HQs. In the fifth edition space wolf codex it was priced at 35. I say lower that to 25 or 30 and make an upgrade for every race. Problem solved.

Oh god no, no EW 2016!

There should be something like in Fantasy where there's generic Relics, and one of them is just a Relic giving EW. Would THAT make you happy, Vipoid?

Hell, I'm paying the 50 FOR EW. Instant Death is a badly done mechanic when the game runs the way it does right now.

wouldn't object to that system.

One thing though - how would you do Force Weapons (and other ID stuff that doesn't involve strength)? Or, would they just be removed.

Either you could remove them or simply have them count as a certain strength of wounds.

For example you could say Instant Death- wounds caused by this weapon count as S10. So have the weapon wound on its typical value but deal extra wounds at the S10 value.

Then make Strength D essentially count as S11.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Oh god no, no EW 2016!

Eternal warrior must live on

Bharring wrote:
CMs fight in CC, so shouldn't be IDed by Krak missiles on foot or Railgun shots on bikes, but Farseers and Autarchs fight at range, so should be IDed by Plasma Guns and Krak Grenades on foot?

Farsight fights in melee. He only gets T4 and a 3+/4++. He will, on average, die to two krak missiles. Hell, Kharn fights purely in melee and he only gets a 3+/5++.

And why shouldn't a chapter master be killed by a railgun shot just because he wants to hit stuff with a sword? Also, with a 3++ it will take, on average, three railgun wounds to kill him without EW. Railguns only have one shot so he's tanked two Hammerheads and then died against the third. That means that he has absorbed at least 375points of firepower (more likely 438 points once you add in disruption pods, submunition and BSF). It seems fair to me that a single 200 to 300 point model can be killed by ~400 points worth of shooting.

With EW he is instead taking a single unsaved wound for each 3 Railgun wounds and so it will take 4 turns of those 3 shots to kill him.

That means that to kill this ~300 point character you have to devote 4 turns of 400 point shooting at him. So 300 points which takes 1600 points worth of shooting to take down. Yeah, that's totally fair

Aren't Railguns terrible anyway?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So basically this all comes down to jealousy. :(

No, it comes down to most SM players going F*** you, got mine.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Also that is really far fetched to say it takes 22 Lascannon shots... The first four could do it.

Or he could tank lascannons all day and never fail a 3++ save, what's your point?

 jreilly89 wrote:

Laughable. One Vindicator will knock him flat without EW.

Or, far more likely, he'll just make his 3++ and shrug it off. But, even if he doesn't, why shouldn't he die? I've yet to hear any reasonable answer other than "my HQ that's already among the most resilient in the game should be more resilient still because I don't like the idea that he could possibly die to the strongest non-D weapon in the game." Once again, how do you think armies feel with T3 or T4 HQs, who can't match his 2+/3+ save? Yours can be downed by a Vindicator shell, they can be downed by a Battle Cannon or even just a Heavy Incinerator or Multilaser.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
There should be something like in Fantasy where there's generic Relics, and one of them is just a Relic giving EW. Would THAT make you happy, Vipoid?

It would certainly be preferable to the current situation.

 jreilly89 wrote:
I think all HQ's should get Eternal Warrior. It's crazy stupid guys like Azrael, Asmodai, Librarians, etc. don't, but random Chapter Master does.

I'd be fine with this.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Aren't Railguns terrible anyway?

Yup. So the argument that EW is needed to protect against the basically-never-used-as-missilesides-are-a-thing Railgun is a bit silly

Again the solution is to extend the rule to other races HQs not tank the durability of Space Marine HQs because you don't like one specific build. Yes chapter master smash is strong but he's hardly the worst thing in the game and cost a pretty penny to run.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again the solution is to extend the rule to other races HQs not tank the durability of Space Marine HQs because you don't like one specific build. Yes chapter master smash is strong but he's hardly the worst thing in the game and cost a pretty penny to run.

Why not reduce the durability of the space marine HQ? That's only one change as opposed to changing every other army.

Its... not?

The problem is that it takes way too many rialgun shots to kill something with EW and your ''solution'' is to make EW more prevalent, 10/10 logic right there

A rail gun is a terrible weapon in this edition generally. The reason I want more armies to have it is because I think it's a good rule. It's cinematic and allows for the fluff to better represented on the table top. How many 40k novels end with...... And then abbadon was hit by a krak missile and died.

Characters rarely get hit with stuff that will kill them. EW is amongst the worst rules of this game.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
A rail gun is a terrible weapon in this edition generally. The reason I want more armies to have it is because I think it's a good rule. It's cinematic and allows for the fluff to better represented on the table top. How many 40k novels end with...... And then abbadon was hit by a krak missile and died.

Abaddon is T5 with a 2+ save, he won't get instant death'd by a krak missile

They should just make it a faction-specific special rule. All Independent Characters with the Armies of the Imperium faction have EW standard. Done.

Angron had a titan step on him and stopped it, and calgar got ripped limb from limb and he kept fighting. Characters take some pretty bad blows all the time and come out swinging.

And again in a world were we have wraith knights, Imperial knights, multiple rip tides, and invisibility nonsense, having an HQ take all three wounds isn't that bad.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Characters rarely get hit with stuff that will kill them. EW is amongst the worst rules of this game.

I've ground a numerous amount of characters to paste with Vindicators. I beg to differ.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Angron had a titan step on him and stopped it, and calgar got ripped limb from limb and he kept fighting. Characters take some pretty bad blows all the time and come out swinging.

And again in a world were we have wraith knights, Imperial knights, multiple rip tides, and invisibility nonsense, having an HQ take all three wounds isn't that bad.

Calgar didn't keep fighting immediately after getting ripped limb from limb.

He was taken away and healed/fitted with a ton of bionics, then, after recuperating, rejoined his combat forces.

Which can be fluffed by having losing all wounds = incapable of continuing battle but not necessarily dead.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Characters rarely get hit with stuff that will kill them. EW is amongst the worst rules of this game.

I've ground a numerous amount of characters to paste with Vindicators. I beg to differ.

In books, I meant

As a compromise if the game didn't have doubling out based on toughness I would be good.

Getting hit with a force weapon or a roll a 6 to ID is balanced by not being guaranteed. I find it anti climatic and boring.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Characters rarely get hit with stuff that will kill them. EW is amongst the worst rules of this game.

I've ground a numerous amount of characters to paste with Vindicators. I beg to differ.

In books, I meant

I'd be happy with my characters losing EW if it meant that they could actually protect themselves in the way they do in the stories - where LOS matters, for example, because otherwise you'll just bomb my warlord with artillery for an easy STW victory point.

In the stories, there's fog of war (often literal as well as figurative) as well that ensures that the commanders are not bombed to paste the moment they appear from their landing craft. There is neither in the 40k game.

Yeah, but the killzone of artillery is much bigger and shells are a lot more accurate.

It doesn't matter if the killzone is bigger if my commander is coming in via aircraft.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again the solution is to extend the rule to other races HQs not tank the durability of Space Marine HQs because you don't like one specific build. Yes chapter master smash is strong but he's hardly the worst thing in the game and cost a pretty penny to run.

Why not reduce the durability of the space marine HQ? That's only one change as opposed to changing every other army.

That's actually the same thing I came away with with the above argument too. A chapter master tanking ten lascannon shots is not a problem with EW, it's a problem with how easy it is for space marines to get a +3 invulnerable save. This does not apply to every other army on the game, and the removal of EW hurts those armies more than it does SM because they can still take storm shields, and that if anything it would encourage stuff like that when the alternative is having your HQ eat a surprising accurate earthshaker round for the umpteenth time

Not wrong with being rewarded with a kill when you finally land an accurate shot with your artillery.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Not wrong with being rewarded with a kill when you finally land an accurate shot with your artillery.

Good, let the hate flow through you.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Not wrong with being rewarded with a kill when you finally land an accurate shot with your artillery.

When each one has a slightly better than 1/3 chance of directly landing in the back pocket of your target, I'm not sure "finally" applies