I backed also. I haven't played the under city, which is the first version of this game, but the support it constantly in no quarter with new missions. I'm sure they will do the same with this, which is one of the reasons I've been excited for this.
I should probably take some of that excitement and just go play undercity.
I dig this. I haven't ever gotten around to building a WM/H army, but I've always liked the Hordes background and this looks like a perfect opportunity to get into that universe on the lighter side of investment.
Just to be clear they note that the models are not accepted in competitive play as models or bases for conversions. I will say it looks interesting. I know it'll deliver so if the value gets there I'll consider it. Granted I'm not sure it won't be cheaper at retail so the exclusives and stretches have a lot to make up for.
Hulksmash wrote: Just to be clear they note that the models are not accepted in competitive play as models or bases for conversions. I will say it looks interesting. I know it'll deliver so if the value gets there I'll consider it. Granted I'm not sure it won't be cheaper at retail so the exclusives and stretches have a lot to make up for.
Oh yeah, I just wanted this as a foray into the universe as opposed to starting any armies with it. That is odd that they specify that though, are the models of a different scale than the existing WM/H stuff? I mean, not even as the base for conversions sounds odd (although I realize WM/H is pretty damn strict on count-as and conversions for games).
That seems strange.. is there a reason why they won't let you use these models for Warmahordes? Or just "because we said so" ? is it like that for the Iron Kingdom RPG too? Haven't followed that.
Seems like a silly idea to not try and make some extra cash from crossover sales..
The bases are slightly smaller than they are supposed to be. But the models in some cases are the same sculpts. If you rebase and paint them the only way to tell is by picking them up since, most of the original models are still metal.
squall018 wrote: I backed also. I haven't played the under city, which is the first version of this game, but the support it constantly in no quarter with new missions. I'm sure they will do the same with this, which is one of the reasons I've been excited for this.
I should probably take some of that excitement and just go play undercity.
That's great IF you subscribe to NQ. But as it is, Undercity as a game by itself is horribly overpriced at it's RRP of 95 usd and I feel this might be the same.
squall018 wrote: I backed also. I haven't played the under city, which is the first version of this game, but the support it constantly in no quarter with new missions. I'm sure they will do the same with this, which is one of the reasons I've been excited for this.
I should probably take some of that excitement and just go play undercity.
That's great IF you subscribe to NQ. But as it is, Undercity as a game by itself is horribly overpriced at it's RRP of 95 usd and I feel this might be the same.
I agree that 95$ is over priced for seven scenarios, but the fact that they continue with support helps a lot with that. Plus, you can get it anywhere for 70$ on any online retailer. Seems reasonable to me, but I do get NQ, which helps a lot.
Right now the KS is probably a little high, but I expect them to fill it out with some stretch goals. We'll see.
I got it at gencon. For full RRP. Was a huge mistake since the scenarios were so limited.
I feel like at the very least for their rrp of 95, it should have everything that imperial assault does in terms of replayability. Yet, it's not even close. I would even have accepted zombicide type scenarios but nope.
They really should release those scenarios for free imo because putting it in NQ is a bit like releasing it as DLC since you have to pay for them and the base game by itself feels incomplete without additional scenarios.
I'm really interested in this, and where it goes, but the initial offering was pretty sad.
High initial goal for what amounts to the same thing we'll see at retail, with nothing extra to entice us to pledge now? Sure. Why not.
Pictures of the content? Nah. At least they got content lists up pretty quickly. When this went up there was no explanation at all about the included expansion either.
What will be real telling is how they do the stretches.
Still, it's the first day, but for a "big" company like Privateer to step up to the KS plate, I'd expect a better showing.
Yeah I agree, I was hoping for a bit more. I like what I see so far though and just like the other big boys I'm sure it will be a great deal in the end
Sure, make good Gatormen and a great Pendrake and forbid people from playing with them to protect your hideously expensive units cast in a terrible plastic. Your fanboys will protect you from mean comments on your forums and praise you for being the underdog compared that other company (as they call GW).
Same as with GW I'd enjoy PP products if they were cheaper with higher quality standards (finecast, PP's crap plastic, Trollkin changing their hand sizes, brutal scale variations a la Black 13, wrong amount of fingers even for some models) and just a sliiight attitude makeover.
Binabik15 wrote: Sure, make good Gatormen and a great Pendrake and forbid people from playing with them to protect your hideously expensive units cast in a terrible plastic.
To be fair, these box will be "Board game plastic" which is a rubbery PVC derivative anyway, so if you hate the PVC figures (and as a big PP fan, I loathe it and won't have it in my collection if at all possible) then this box won't improve your situation. PVC killed any and all interest in Relic Knights for me, which was a big shame as I am not afraid to admit I enjoy the anime aesthetic in all its forms. Its a blight on the hobby that needs to go away, but sadly its ever increasing in popularity among companies as it lets them sculpt in metal style (undercuts) but cast in plastic prices :(
I've played half of undercity and its not a bad game at all, the criticisms of the maps were fair, but it doesn't hamper the fun too much.
I'd be looking to pick this up as much for the IKRPG possibilities than anything else, but the initial pledge price is a little rich for my blood. maybe when the expansions arrive it will be better value.
Having backed all the SDE kickstarters to date, I don't mind PVC as much for board gaming, but it is a shame PP can't get a hustle on with the conversion to HIPs. Its slowly gaining pace, but China keeps throwing them curveballs I fear.
I hate the PP plastic as well, it is way worse than even modern boardgame stuff. My Blood Rage minis blow away my PP plastics (some of the Fennblades have almost completly flat arms, wth, resculpted every single one of them). With their joints set up like SDE minis I have I guess it's the same factory and my SDE stuff was wayyy cheaper. Which is why I probably wouldn't have backed this game anyway, but how they immediatly make the minis tournament illegal is rubbing me the wrong way. And I never, ever would even WANT to play in on official setting, but it's so needlessly restricitive right off the bat.
Perry Miniatures and other small-ish companies can afford to make HIPS moulds partnering with Renedra or Chinese companies, PP are not that small, I bet they could. But why do it if you can sell 5 mould-line brimming Trollkin with soft details for 45€.
Until they switch to HIPS I'll continue to sculpt my own minis or convert other ranges to expand my Circle force (except for a metal figure every now and then, but the distiribution kerfuffle made my favourite shop stop selling PP, so that'll stop as well).
wuestenfux wrote: Not really interested in board games. Is it worth it?
How familiar with the WM/H combat system? It uses that, with a little bit of game AI, to create a dungeon crawl a la Descent/SDE/Warhammer Quest etc.
Undercity is good enough fun, though a little limited in replayability due to the scenario nature of the game (though NQM has included new scenarios and the cahracters have a skill tree that means you can play in different styles every campaign) This is essentially the hordes (wilderness) version.
If you IKRPG its great for some useful models (the tatzylwurms for example) as well as giving some new options for gaming tiles.
I've certainly played worse board games, and I think the PP core ruleset is pretty solid, and actually works well at lower model counts, so is well suited to a board game nature. If you have never played WM or IKRPG, this is as good a way to learn it as any other option as they all use the same core 2d6 + stat vs stat system. Its a much better system than single die rolling as there is a curve.
Though if you are not interested in board games, it might have limited appeal. Still, board gaming is my go to these days, I have gone off competitive gaming, so a team game where you all win or lose together is a lot more enjoyable for me at present.
Perry Miniatures and other small-ish companies can afford to make HIPS moulds partnering with Renedra or Chinese companies, PP are not that small, I bet they could. But why do it if you can sell 5 mould-line brimming Trollkin with soft details for 45€.
Until they switch to HIPS I'll continue to sculpt my own minis or convert other ranges to expand my Circle force (except for a metal figure every now and then, but the distiribution kerfuffle made my favourite shop stop selling PP, so that'll stop as well).
They have started. They are (were) using a factory in China for their expansion into HIPs. So far we have two battle engines (CoC and Minions, two (soon to be four) Warjack of renown kits and the just announced Cryx Colossal which highly suggest the rest of the new Colossal kits will also be HIPs.
They have stated they will keep doing PVC for "organic" kits which means hordes will likely see not much styrene, and we have seen a lot of lines changed over on the infantry front (Trolls Skorne and ret have been hit hard recently) but I do hope they eventually put the energy into fully embracing HIPs and bringing PVC to a close.
Still feel they would be better off investing in bringing it in house as per GW, that's what gives GW a lot of their market strength. By the time you have dealt with the hiccups working with China can bring, maybe investing in the tooling and staff training would pay off...
Hulksmash wrote: Just to be clear they note that the models are not accepted in competitive play as models or bases for conversions.
That's pretty weak isn't it?
Why artificially limit the usefulness of the models?
I guess that's the way PP roll, and their customer base seem to accept it. But there is a difference between not allowing models from another range and not allowing your own models.
Hulksmash wrote: Just to be clear they note that the models are not accepted in competitive play as models or bases for conversions.
That's pretty weak isn't it?
Why artificially limit the usefulness of the models?
Their hardcore, livestreamed, full-metal mayhem, pro championship tier 1 events are serious business. You better play like you got a pair and bring the proper, more expensive models. They don't want plebs showing up with cheap board game figures to tarnish the awesomeness.
Their official reasoning don't make much sense either.
Steven Gregor wrote:Eesh... I hate to be a downer, but I just read the FAQ and I might need to withdraw. While I was looking forward to playing this with my gaming group, realistically I can only expect to get a couple games of Widower's Wood in per year; not enough to justify shelling out $140 when I could buy three or four indie games for the price. What sold me, however, was the idea of getting to sprinkle some exciting resculpts into my Minions army (Pendrake and the Club Gators look amazing) during my weekly Warmachine/Hordes sessions. While I doubt many PGs will care if I bring some well-painted WW minis to a tournament, the fact that they aren't allowed tells me that they're either A) so low in quality that no amount of skilled painting can make them usable in Hordes or B) that Privateer Press doesn't want its players to 'get over' by using these (slightly) cheaper minis in their flagship game, which is a very cavalier way to treat someone willing to spend two weeks' grocery money on a product they won't see for a year.
Privateer Press wrote:Hi Steven, in a way you've hit the nail on the head. The quality of the figures in Widower's Wood is not of the same quality as WARMACHINE and HORDES figures. The material is a less rigid plastic and while it is perfectly suitable for the needs of a casual board game is not meant to be a substitute for our high quality wargaming figures.
It could be reasoned that the WW models are of such bad quality that it would lessen the experience of the people attending a official tournament and they should be able to expect "high quality wargaming figures". That would mean that the WW models are horrible products however and they're not really that much different from the metal versions?
Even if the rule would be to protect tournament participants against facing sub-par miniatures, do Warmahorde players really care that much about that. Are there even painting requirements in most officlal tournaments? I bet a well painted and based WW model is a lot more pleasing to look at than a "high quality" metal model that's unpainted, only primed or just with a really lazy paintjob anyway.
wuestenfux wrote: Not really interested in board games. Is it worth it?
If you're not interested in board games, there's no point in backing a board game KS I guess? The models can't be used in tournaments and in terms of the material used, they're made of a very soft and cheap plastic.
Hulksmash wrote: Just to be clear they note that the models are not accepted in competitive play as models or bases for conversions. I will say it looks interesting. I know it'll deliver so if the value gets there I'll consider it. Granted I'm not sure it won't be cheaper at retail so the exclusives and stretches have a lot to make up for.
Oh common. Some of the minis look better. than the ones they produce for the regular warmahordes game..
It makes sence, if they are not size compatible though. Are they even out of the material, that can be painted properly, i.e. not rubbery boardgame crap?
PS: actualy managed to read the comments above, and got answers to all my questions
The amount of elitism on display here is staggering.
They freely admit to making a gak product and tell people not to bring them to official events because it would detract from the "high-quality" figures?
Interesting way to "promote" the game you're trying to raise money for. They're certainly selling like they've got a pair.
Seeing as compatibility between games is something that PP has profited immensely from, it's an unusual position to take.
I guess.. lucky for me I don't play tournaments like ever? So I'll happily use the minis for whatever I want
I think 25k for the next goal was a little steep, but no different from the other big campaigns. Hopefully they close that gap a little for later goals when things slow down
Note that "official events" is really just the ones Privateer Press officially runs themselves... individual press gangers running tournies are free to do as they like and can allow / disallow conversions. I've got an entire converted army and many local press gangers have told me they're cool with it (it is fully painted, although not by me - and I'll also be labelling the bases before using it in a tourney).
Mostly I just need more practice because I'm terrible at the moment having just gotten back into playing Hordes . But while the PP policy is strict on paper, it's much like GW and other companies' policies of the past - in their stores, or at their events, you have to use their models. But in the end, even with PP, that is a small minority of events - most are run by volunteers and they can allow things if they wish. I can't imagine any of them not allowing this Pendrake model over the former version, for instance!
RiTides wrote: Note that "official events" is really just the ones Privateer Press officially runs themselves... individual press gangers running tournies are free to do as they like and can allow / disallow conversions.
So if it will only affect a small number of tournaments, why disallow the models in the first place?
It just comes off as petty, or as a lack of confidence in the WW miniatures.
Considering the elitism shown at WM/H official events, I don't doubt that Privateer is content to cash in on this while being adamant about the models being disallowed from proper play.
They are an incredibly hobby/conversion unfriendly company, and happily foster a "just show up with half-assembled, unpainted whatever...", but only insofar as it helps benefit them.
25k for 4 more additional figures that were already included in the box.
Literally said out loud "You've got to be kidding me, that's it?" after I saw your post. Seriously? Privateer Press really thinks that offering four more miniatures(of what may very well be the same sculpt) is a good idea for a stretch goal??
Not only that- they said in the comments that there won't be any add ons. Not sure how they expect to hit big goals when things are already starting to trickle.
It's really a bit of a head scratcher. Has nobody in the Privateer offices actively followed big money making Kickstarters before?
Are they just expecting to coast along on the strength of their tabletop game, especially considering the two will be officially incompatible?
I know it's early on, but considering how much funding usually comes in during the first few hours/ days, especially from larger properties and more established companies, I really feel like they squandered away a big opportunity.
Having both backed and watched triple digits worth of campaigns, I just see a lot of stumbles that could have been them really lighting things on fire.
Fully agree with you. It's also really strange not seeing a "track" for upcoming stretch goals - most, if not all, of the gaming related Kickstarters I've seen have done a graphic that shows what levels of funding the next stretch goals need, and maybe a tease about what it is. I almost wonder if they looked at a few successful campaigns but didn't spend enough time/energy researching the why's and how's of those successful Kickstarters.
RiTides wrote: Note that "official events" is really just the ones Privateer Press officially runs themselves... individual press gangers running tournies are free to do as they like and can allow / disallow conversions.
So if it will only affect a small number of tournaments, why disallow the models in the first place?
It just comes off as petty, or as a lack of confidence in the WW miniatures.
The official Steamroller rules include the following:
All models used in Privateer Press organized play events
must be Privateer Press miniatures from the WARMACHINE
or HORDES lines. The miniatures must be fully assembled
on the appropriately sized base for which the model
was designed. The use of non–Privateer Press models,
unassembled miniatures, or inappropriately based models is
not permitted.
So as of right now, the steamroller rules already disallow these models, as well as the models from the IKPRG Unleashed box and the Iron Kingdoms miniatures line. If I were a betting man, the reason d'etre for these rules are these beauties:
Privateer Press aren't saints, but they're pretty fan friendly As others have noted, I'm not sure they'd enforce the rule most the time.
Finally, I know there are some very old divisions in IP ownership between the various founders of PP, which is one of the reasons Warmachine (which was partially created by earlier members) and Hordes are still distinct game lines from a commercial and legal standpoint. I would not be surprised if they try to keep the universes separate as much as possible.
I think they are just running this as a streamlined "either you want the game or not" campaign.
I think they just really want the exposure kickstater gives and a backer # to show off. So no Add-ons because they want to see the backer # more than anything else. They don't want to sqease backers for every dime, thy just want people to buy the game.
So for 25k...and for a 100 dollar game, i get...9 missions now? Assuming it's the same length as undercity + 1 mission. WOW
Guess I'll just have to pay more and subscribe to No Quarter to supplement my 100 dollar game -_-
RiTides wrote: Note that "official events" is really just the ones Privateer Press officially runs themselves... individual press gangers running tournies are free to do as they like and can allow / disallow conversions.
So if it will only affect a small number of tournaments, why disallow the models in the first place?
It just comes off as petty, or as a lack of confidence in the WW miniatures.
The official Steamroller rules include the following:
All models used in Privateer Press organized play events
must be Privateer Press miniatures from the WARMACHINE
or HORDES lines. The miniatures must be fully assembled
on the appropriately sized base for which the model
was designed. The use of non–Privateer Press models,
unassembled miniatures, or inappropriately based models is
not permitted.
So as of right now, the steamroller rules already disallow these models, as well as the models from the IKPRG Unleashed box and the Iron Kingdoms miniatures line. If I were a betting man, the reason d'etre for these rules are these beauties:
Decent figures, the game just doesn't get much promotion for whatever reasons.
Stuff like Grind and Puppet Wars: Unstitched tend to suffer from "Wargame miniatures being sold to board game players" syndrome--too many parts in the way of someone wanting to just sit down and play.
Zywus wrote: It could be reasoned that the WW models are of such bad quality that it would lessen the experience of the people attending a official tournament and they should be able to expect "high quality wargaming figures". That would mean that the WW models are horrible products however and they're not really that much different from the metal versions?
Even if the rule would be to protect tournament participants against facing sub-par miniatures, do Warmahorde players really care that much about that. Are there even painting requirements in most officlal tournaments? I bet a well painted and based WW model is a lot more pleasing to look at than a "high quality" metal model that's unpainted, only primed or just with a really lazy paintjob anyway.
They can't be so bad that their presence is worse than the ugly paper circles that seem to pass for "terrain" at tournaments now. :( You might as well use wooden cylinders with the model name written on the top.
PPS_Simon wrote:Hey all, I just addressed this on BGG but wanted to repeat the info here.
As for how we're structuring stretch goals:
Spoiler:
We structured our stretch goals at $25,000 intervals in an attempt to make the campaign as simple as possible to follow and in hopes of creating a rhythm to the frequency with which we would cross stretch goals throughout the duration of the campaign. In other words our desire was to create a stretch goal progression that allowed us to offer bigger rewards (new heroes with all their accompanying cards or new groups of multiple villain figures) without having to threaten the momentum of the campaign by having to apply a larger funding goal to cover the required very real costs of creation and production.
The interval amount for the stretch goals was arrived at through much evaluation of the quotes provided to us by the factory that will manufacture the game. Until we are able to place an actual order with the factory (the quantity for which we will not know until the end of the Kickstarter campaign) the quotes are simply estimates provided at theoretical quantities.
The amount of money each stretch goal provides to the project must account for all of the costs associated with not only the creation of the goal, but with the continually increasing costs of providing that and all previous stretch goals to the growing number of backers who join the project and help reach the next goal. For instance, our current average pledge amount is approximately $175 per backer (rounding off), so based on that, achieving a stretch goal requires the addition of around 143 new backers to reach that $25k interval. When we cross the $175k interval and unlock the new Lanyssa Ryssyl figure, we’ll also be adding 143 more sets of swamp shambles, 143 sets of Crede & Jaggers, etc. The overall quantity of each stretch goal reward should grow by approximately that number, each time we cross a goal. As higher quantities are ordered, the price per unit does go down, which is part of what makes this system work, but the volume advantage to production pricing does not have a large impact on costs until we get into much higher quantities produced.
In the case of rewards that include new figures, there are also fixed tooling setup charges that aren’t affected by volume, which range from $4k-6k or more depending on the size and number of figures. A reward like the mission pack does not necessarily cost as much as a new miniature, but by alternating the stretch goals between new figures, more of existing figures, and print rewards or other rewards that do not have significant setup costs associated with them, we can amortize the sunk costs like the expensive tooling across all of the goals as the cost to fulfill each of those goals rises with the growing number of backers.
To sum it up, not all stretch goals cost the same amount to produce, but each new goal means we’re spending more to fulfill all the previous stretch goals, and by gauging our expenses against a consistent stretch goal interval, we can spread out the costs and keep the campaign simple without fear of running into production pitfalls that might impact delivery of the project down the road. With variable reward levels and no way of knowing how many people will back the project, what our final average pledge per backer looks like and what the final costs for the project will be is based on our best guess, informed by our years of producing these kinds of products. So, the campaign we’ve structure ensures that we will deliver the final rewards to our backers as efficiently and expediently as possible.
I was afraid logic of this type would be used to justify the structure of the campaign. Not least because it means that (unless this is complete bull) PP is committed to this layout of the campaign. Which in turn... means that I think this is very likely to under-perform.
It's rather telling how empty all the discussion sections are, whether here, on the official forums and on Kickstarter;
Compare this to my favorite campaign of Boardgame excess, Kingdom Death:Monster;
Again, this is a comparison of comments, not pledge amounts.
There are a lot of problems with this campaign, but the one that I think is really going to sting over time is... it's just so expensive.
It's also rather shocking when you actually notice how little the base $100 game contains: of the currently available 7 heroes, only 4 come in the retail game/base game. To me that says... that this is a money grab, to be honest. If that doesn't change, then the 'complete game' will functionally be the kickstarter exclusive game version.
That seems like it's motivated by the thinking that "hey, we don't want people to just wait and buy this at 10-20% off at a retailer... let's make it so that the KS version is the real version." To be clear, I'm not at all saying there shouldn't be things that are exclusive to KS, but when the difference is this profound, it really makes me contemplate what the thinking could be.
You only have to look at the Ghostbusters game to see how that "KS version is the real version" turned out. The core game is such a hollow and incomplete experience without the KS exclusive content. Even my FLGS manager discourages people from purchasing the game in it's current state.
Considering places like Miniature Market are already discounting Ghostbusters pretty heavily as well, that says something too.
For a Kickstarter "for the fans" it certainly doesn't feel like it. It feels like Privateer's going to do what they can to maximize their profits with as little fiscal impact on their own pocketbooks.
I'm most likely dropping this. I think we'll probably see an exodus in the next week or so if PP don't take some steps to get things even a *little* more exciting.
Comments are dead. Discussion here is dead.
Very sad.
At least I've got things like Masmorra and Darklight to look forward to.
wuestenfux wrote: Not really interested in board games. Is it worth it?
If you're not interested in board games, there's no point in backing a board game KS I guess? The models can't be used in tournaments and in terms of the material used, they're made of a very soft and cheap plastic.
This is a comparison of the previous PP models to other dungeon crawlers.
Well, I play Cryx and Cyriss. My only interest in the board game would be the usage of the models in regular games. So from what has been said, I'll not buy it.
Yeah, I was really hoping for something more. I love the IK IP in general but as time goes by even just being a few days old this one is feeling like a dud. Feels like they really need to do more on the promotion side, get some game play or painting videos going, have blogs and vlogs talking about it... I'd mention the stretch goals but that horse has been beaten.
My pet theory is that somebody at PP really likes boardgames, and keeps trying to make them. The problem is that they tend to not do very well. Undercity in particular got lit up like Chinese New Year for it's limited game play.
Hobby Board Games are serious business now, and competition is fierce. You can't sell a lot of units just by being the only box with heros and orcs.
My guess is that they went with Kickstarter to make sure they avoid taking a loss, and keeping somebody happy. In a smaller company, and PP is very much still a smaller company by any management standard, personalities are very important. If making board games is important to somebody, and that person is important to PP, they'll keep trying to figure out ways to make and market board games.
On the flip side... I think this is, in a way, a pure sort of kickstarter. It's not presented as a monty haul for backers, it's not unrealistically low in its initial goal, nor does it promise more and more to build interest. It's a creator saying, "I want to make this. Anybody interested?"
Now, it's our duty as informed consumers to say, "hell no, I can get a better $100 board game any time I want!"
The more time (and money) I waste on Kickstarter, the more I wish GW would get off their duff and do us all a proper and bring Quest up to date.
Even on this game's comments, people were asking for WHQ's mechanics to make an appearance.
There's an awful lot of desire out there for a game of similar quality- AI opponents, random dungeons, persistent character progression, money to waste on phat loot and swag, (somewhat) quick playtime...
....none of these companies seem to get it. Some have come close, but nobody's made it. Yet.
Privateer is one company that really could have done it too.
PP had a stated goal. They met stated goal. I don't forsee them taking the massive hit financially a lot of other Kickstarters do when they try to make it a 'can't miss' opportunity.
They wanted to gauge interest in a super limited designer box version of their board games. Clearly, they got their answer.
Privateer Press wrote:Hi Tyler,
Sorry if you missed that posted thread on our forums and on the BGG forums. I thought it had been referenced here but was apparently lost to a draft.
I'm sorry if you're not satisfied with the campaign but I should point out that a retail release is only contingent upon retailer demand post-Kickstarter. We are of course always taking the feedback of our backers into account and I hope you'll find reason to continue to support us.
Emphasis mine. Now, perhaps I am misreading (or reading too much into it) but that seems to indicate that there are no firm plans to actual bring the "retail" version to retail. Again, I could be wrong, but that would seem to jibe with the overall feel of the campaign.
Speaking of, the latest update is... well, I'd say, underwhelming;
LANYSSA RYSSYL UNLOCKED AND FREE SHIPPING ON THE UNDERCITY IN THE PRIVATEER ONLINE STORE!
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In just three days we’ve knocked out three stretch goals! Now that we’ve hit $175,000 the sorceress Lanyssa Ryssyl will join the heroes available in your games of Widower’s Wood.
For illustrative purposes only. Final product may vary.
The indomitable sorceress, Lanyssa Ryssyl has seen her people destroyed and their lands despoiled. Having fled her ancestral lands, she wanders seeking the means to revenge against the horrors of the Legion of Everblight, and has vowed to use every means at her disposal in their annihilation.
This means that once more the time has come to unveil our next stretch goals…
For illustrative purposes only. Final product may vary.
For illustrative purposes only. Final product may vary.
For illustrative purposes only. Final product may vary.
Despite being the smallest known speices of its kind, viper tatzylwurms are believed to have developed their lethal adaptations as a result of competition with other dangerous creatures and the need to kill resilient prey. They are vicious pack hunters, capable of coordinating their hunting activities with chilling efficiency.
But of course, there are several goals between here and there. Next up is the first supplemental mission for the game and a few more.
For illustrative purposes only. Final product may vary.
For illustrative purposes only. Final product may vary.
For illustrative purposes only. Final product may vary.
For illustrative purposes only. Final product may vary.
For illustrative purposes only. Final product may vary.
Finally, we’ve received a lot of requests to make The Undercity part of this campaign. While we won’t be doing that, we are offering free shipping on The Undercity for domestic orders and reduced shipping for international orders!
The Undercity is fully compatible with Widower’s Wood and will be a great way to spend your gaming time until Widower’s Wood arrives in early 2017.
To get your free domestic shipping, enter promo code gamenight when checking out.
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Thanks so much for your continued support. Keep sharing the Kickstarter and we’ll keep knocking down those stretch goals!
Once again, all the stretch goals of substance are reserved for the KS exclusive levels. I think that we can be safe in saying that they have little to no interest in actually selling this game at retail, unless they expect it to be the stuff of bargan bin sales, because there is no way the existing (and extended) retail version is a $100 game.
Privateer Press wrote:Hi Tyler,
Sorry if you missed that posted thread on our forums and on the BGG forums. I thought it had been referenced here but was apparently lost to a draft.
I'm sorry if you're not satisfied with the campaign but I should point out that a retail release is only contingent upon retailer demand post-Kickstarter. We are of course always taking the feedback of our backers into account and I hope you'll find reason to continue to support us.
Emphasis mine. Now, perhaps I am misreading (or reading too much into it) but that seems to indicate that there are no firm plans to actual bring the "retail" version to retail. Again, I could be wrong, but that would seem to jibe with the overall feel of the campaign.
Once again, all the stretch goals of substance are reserved for the KS exclusive levels. I think that we can be safe in saying that they have little to no interest in actually selling this game at retail, unless they expect it to be the stuff of bargan bin sales, because there is no way the existing (and extended) retail version is a $100 game.
I read that as saying, "BACK THIS NOW!! NOW NOW NOW!"
I don't believe we won't actually see this boardgame out in retail stores now that it's been funded and if it's produced and I feel PP is being disingenuous by hinting that people who don't back this won't see the game ever considering PP keeps trying to get into the boardgame market.
Also, what's more interesting about this campaign are the pledge levels. There are very few at the base 100 pledge, which already feels overpriced. Instead, most of them are at 140 and 40% of them are at the whopping 250 level. I'm not sure who's backing this but it probably isn't the average board game fan.
I took it as a reference to how Undercity failed to take off.
I've always felt this Kickstarter was a result of Undercity's lack of momentum. And this is coming from someone who loves Undercity, but is did not fair well with the board gamer crown.
Also the $100 pledge is $5 over MSRP and gets very few extras, plus shipping
Undercity had a lot of issues with it. It was fun to play but it's repetitive and only had 8 scenarios in it. The monster AI was also screwy at times so you could really just game the system and not break a sweat playing through missions.
I think PP needs a better board game designer rather than letting in-house people design them if they're serious about breaking into the boardgame market
Also they kind of need to realise that boardgames have come a long way and that their plastic is kind of crappy for a miniatures boardgame.
The sad thing is Zombies Keep out was a good game with lots of potential to catch on with peopel outside the W/H community, but they never really pushed it to anybody outside of the W/H community. The same goes for most of the bodgers games, PP mostly presented to the wargamers who for the most part seem to resent PP doing anything that isn't W/H.
I know some players that get mad about IKRPG because it takes focus from W/H.
High Command had potential also, but the W/H theme ment it mostly forcued on those players, and again they mostly resented it ot being the actual miniatures game.
A lot of WMH players I know played High Command. It died because PP killed it off with slow release dates. When it came out over here, a lot of people I know who play WMH bought the WM High command box. But the original box was so damn broken and iirc, Khador could just VP spam like a madman, which made for some very unfun games/tourneys.
At which point everyone dropped it. By the time PP released enough cards to supplement the other factions, no one played HC here anymore.
Sining wrote: A lot of WMH players I know played High Command. It died because PP killed it off with slow release dates. When it came out over here, a lot of people I know who play WMH bought the WM High command box. But the original box was so damn broken and iirc, Khador could just VP spam like a madman, which made for some very unfun games/tourneys.
At which point everyone dropped it. By the time PP released enough cards to supplement the other factions, no one played HC here anymore.
True, that's pretty much what happened here also, that and Dropzone Commander.
Also PP seemed to lose interest in the game themselves. The 2 player pack they released at Gencon came off as a token gesture.
If they want to break into board games, get someone who actually designs board games for a living and not do it in-house. Hire that person full-time, give him his own small department and just let him do his thing.
I mean if the past few years have shown us anything, small companies CAN grow a lot bigger suddenly in the boardgame market. They just need to be dedicated and not make horrible boardgames.
This reminds me of the huge build up there was to the first Level 7 game that PP put out: I don't know if folks remember, but PP went and made... well, a short movie, for lack of a better term, for the announcement.
Seriously, remember this?
Written and directed by Matthew D. Wilson and shot on the RED Epic camera system, [WELCOME TO] LEVEL 7 takes viewers on a terrifying eight-minute thrill-ride into the bowels of a secret government-run underground facility where humans work side-by-side with extraterrestrials in an effort to forward a mysterious agenda.
Sometimes I get the feeling that Matt simply isn't happy with just having WM/H on his plate, which leads to these outings into areas beyond his or PP's core competence. I have a vague memory of getting shadowbanned on the PP forums for criticizing Level 7 and the baffling decision to include no miniatures in the first game (my understanding is that the follow-ups to L7 include miniatures).
By the by, in support of my feeling about Wilson's frustrated desires? That video is hosted on Wilson's YouTube channel, and doesn't seem to be anywhere on PP's own channel. I remember hearing a rumor at the time that video came out that Wilson had moved to California with heady dreams of producing more films, but that's completely unconfirmed (EDIT: as pointed out below, it's completely confirmed).
What really gets me is that PP is letting their core products suffer, if for no other reason then they are still, still, using vastly inferior materials and charging top prices. Years after GW has gone completely plastic it is simply unacceptable that PP is using metal, PVC and hybrid kits. PP has some simply shockingly bad sculpts, and are now producing line troops that are markedly inferior to stuff being put out by one and two man operations off Kickstarter (Dreamforge and Kingdom Death in particular show how poorly many PP kits have aged).
Man, I remember the first lvl 7 game. They were hinting they were doing something scifi and back then, a lot of people, me included, thought it was a scifi skirmish game.
By the by, in support of my feeling about Wilson's frustrated desires? That video is hosted on Wilson's YouTube channel, and doesn't seem to be anywhere on PP's own channel. I remember hearing a rumor at the time that video came out that Wilson had moved to California with heady dreams of producing more films, but that's completely unconfirmed.
He did move. A couple people that used to work there told me that he did have a house in Los Angeles and he was turning up to a couple WMH tournaments (store level) in the LA area. Have to find the Long Beach store that had pictures of him turning up. Not sure if he still lives in LA. That was 3-5 years ago. Wilson wants to get into Hollywood and make movies. The Grind game was pitched as a cartoon. There were kids piloting those jacks.
Well, it's still climbing slow and steady, I'm sure over time it will add enough to make it a better value, and I'm sure the last couple days will do great. There's been some campaigns that were dull the whole time then suddenly doubled on the last day.
I remember getting all excited for Level 7 when I saw that video, then I was like "where's the minis?" and forgot all about it till now. Same thing kinda with Xenoshift, being a cool "mini" or not game, I was expecting cool minis and was disappointed that there wren't any. Guess I just love my army men.
Level 7: Omega Protocol (the minitatures based dungeon crawler) was pretty good from what I heard. It actually got pretty good reviews from Boardgame reviewers. A lot of the same people that didn't like Undercity, Really liked Omega Protocol
Buzzsaw wrote: What really gets me is that PP is letting their core products suffer, if for no other reason then they are still, still, using vastly inferior materials and charging top prices. Years after GW has gone completely plastic it is simply unacceptable that PP is using metal, PVC and hybrid kits. PP has some simply shockingly bad sculpts, and are now producing line troops that are markedly inferior to stuff being put out by one and two man operations off Kickstarter (Dreamforge and Kingdom Death in particular show how poorly many PP kits have aged).
Given that no-one else has challenged you on this - why are metal and resin/metal hybrid kits unacceptable? I'll give you the PVC/Restic stuff has a bad reputation, though the kits I've bought in it from PP have been fine, but I very rarely see anything negative about the metal or hybrid kits. A detailed metal sculpt, taking advantage of the strengths of the medium, will look better to me than the result of the average plastic kit, where the detail suffers from certain angles due to the limitations of the medium.
PP is moving into "traditional" plastic for kits that suit the medium, in their eyes, but don't have it set-up in-house - I'd agree that that is something they should look at, but so far they've chosen other avenues. And if they think it is the right material for only certain types of kit, then I can understand why they are hesitant to invest in an in-house set-up.
Buzzsaw wrote: What really gets me is that PP is letting their core products suffer, if for no other reason then they are still, still, using vastly inferior materials and charging top prices. Years after GW has gone completely plastic it is simply unacceptable that PP is using metal, PVC and hybrid kits. PP has some simply shockingly bad sculpts, and are now producing line troops that are markedly inferior to stuff being put out by one and two man operations off Kickstarter (Dreamforge and Kingdom Death in particular show how poorly many PP kits have aged).
Given that no-one else has challenged you on this - why are metal and resin/metal hybrid kits unacceptable? I'll give you the PVC/Restic stuff has a bad reputation, though the kits I've bought in it from PP have been fine, but I very rarely see anything negative about the metal or hybrid kits. A detailed metal sculpt, taking advantage of the strengths of the medium, will look better to me than the result of the average plastic kit, where the detail suffers from certain angles due to the limitations of the medium.
PP is moving into "traditional" plastic for kits that suit the medium, in their eyes, but don't have it set-up in-house - I'd agree that that is something they should look at, but so far they've chosen other avenues. And if they think it is the right material for only certain types of kit, then I can understand why they are hesitant to invest in an in-house set-up.
Forgive me, I spoke somewhat inartfully: when I said 'hybrid kits' I was thinking of the metal-PVC kits like some older Banes I had purchased, that then the newer colossal kits (about which I know little). That said, while I am happy to hear about the quality of their resin kits, I can't go along with the idea that their trooper kits are fine. My experience with Convergence of Cyriss kits was nothing short of unacceptable (granted I have heard later offerings are less terrible).
With regards to plastics, I just can't follow you: as the satisfied owner of both Kingdom Death plastics and Dreamforge kits, I simply can no longer tolerate the idea of paying the prices they are charging for models of the quality of their trooper kits. Similarly, I just cannot accept that PP has kept pace with the rest of the field. In fact, while I am a huge fan of their rules (and a medium fan of their fiction), I haven't bought any models from PP in ages, simply because I have had such disappointment with their models. This is not to say that they never produce good stuff: they do occasionally hit it out of the park, generally with their character models (see Haley 3, for example), but I cannot say the same, by and large, about their trooper kits.
Moreso then any specific complaint, I simply don't believe that a company that is in PP's position should be putting out kits like they are. I am willing to be shown that I have misjudged them, but that has been my experience.
Buzzsaw wrote: I simply can no longer tolerate the idea of paying the prices they are charging for models of the quality of their trooper kits.
Pretty much sums up why I haven't bought anything from them in a long time. I go to look at their new models, look at the price, and instantly start thinking of how much more stuff I can get from other companies (heck, even from GW!) for the same price point. When confronted with $3-$4+ per mini for restic troops, I can't help but turn away.
I like how talk his completely moved on from the actual campaign.
The game recently passed the 200k mark, netting the extra KS- exclusive scenario.
They also unveiled the latest goal.
...of which there are already 10 in the box.
There's also this goal.
500 shares is a little under half of all the backers. Hope they can reach that goal.
Some new tile art to go with either this game or the Iron Kingdoms RPG.
The game recently passed the 200k mark, netting the extra KS- exclusive scenario.
Is anybody else a little surprised at this? While not exactly a runaway success, $200k with 20 days left is pretty impressive.
That's the thing: $200k is a lot of money for a small company or a start-up, but for PP? It's almost an embarrassingly low amount. PP has a world-wide fandom, a (comparatively) huge dedicated fan base and a history behind it. To put it in perspective, Deadzone opened with (I think) something like $175k in the first 48, and there is no question to me that PP should be better able to leverage their (vastly larger) fan base then Mantic.
That the amount seen thus far is what it is to me reflects the fact that the previous game in the series (Undercity?) has mixed reviews (or so I hear), and the reviews of the material and components seem to be a particular sticking point. Add to that the relatively parsimonious game contents and... a slow campaign, and frankly, I don't see it changing much given that we now see the SGs for the next 100k+.
PP fans are bidding on it. It's kind of obvious when most of the bids aren't even at the 100 usd pledge level but the 140 and there are so many on the 240 pledge level.
Also, KS exclusive scenarios? Really? Because it's not like the previous game is lacking in scenarios at all /s
Of all the things to be KS exclusive, a scenario makes the least sense, considering the original game came with so few scenarios. It's like they really don't want people to buy this after KS.
Ctaylor wrote: PP have mentioned in comments that they are revamping some of the stretch goals soon.
It seems the revamp is... using twitter polls to determine some things? Most recent update contains this;
Future stretch goals: Based on feedback and suggestions from our backers, we’ve made some adjustments to the stretch goal ladder. Notably, you’ll notice we’ve moved that big, juicy Ironback Spitter down a rung on the ladder. We didn’t come this far not to see that big guy make it into the game! (We would have swapped him for the Swamp Gobbers but we didn’t want to pull a bait & switch for anyone looking to build out their gobber horde!) And since we know our backers have great input, we’re now going to get you more involved with determining our stretch goal path though a series of polls! The first one you’ll get to vote on will determine which figures we’re going to add onto the $300k Supplemental Mission goal! It’s going to be a knock-down-drag-out fight between a pair of spectral Feral Geists or a 4-pack of tomahawk-wielding Gatormen! And whichever comes out on top will get combined with the supplemental mission at the $300k stretch goal level. And after that, just to make things interesting, we’re going to keep going with the polls. Rather than lock in the Bog Trog Spearmen, we’ll let you vote it out to decide whether it will be Bog Trog Spearmen or Club Gatormen. Let the best monsters win!
I'm... uncertain about the potential impact of these changes. Duplicate sculpts pretty much never motivate more pledges, IMO, unless they are originally in tiny numbers that the increase brings the numbers above some minimal standard. I think what they really need are new characters... which is a problem, because they seem shockingly to have not really planned to add more heroes. I'm not at all sure about that, except that the heroes they have added are all existing characters from their main miniature line.
I just don't understand the reasoning behind so many of their moves, except as a means of absolutely minimizing their costs. But... why? PP shouldn't be so hard up for cash that they need to be so parsimonious, so why run this like a complete cash grab?
I love PP as a company - but in many regards they always come off as kind of tightwads to me - never willing to really invest in things like quality plastics (which took ages to show up - and they'll now only use for certain kits).
And the Tactics KS was a disappointment too in terms of value. So many cool things they might have done - but stuck with a lot of lame stuff like in-game skins.
They could also pretty easily KS (or just sell) stuff that their fanbase is clamoring for (like a fluff anthology) - but never do.
And the repeat sculpts in things (like this, and the previous board game) borders on insulting. At least do 2 variants if you're giving us 12 of the same mini.
I decided to drop my pledge today. Hopefully if enough people aren't seeing the value, they do it sooner rather than later in the hopes that Privateer gets the message.
I'll certainly be checking back on this, but with a bunch of neat stuff coming up REALLY soon on Kickstarter, I'd rather spend my money on up and coming companies that need the support and in turn give a bit more to backers.
A shame the way this is being handled, as I was super excited at the possibilities of this one.
So, new update, and it definitely looks like PP has got the message that something wasn't right;
Good afternoon Widower’s Wood backers!
We here at Privateer Press are continuing to brainstorm different ways we can fine-tune this Kickstarter project and your input has been a great inspiration. Not content to let things sit, we’ve got another adjustment to make to our stretch goal ladder that we hope is going to please you.
After adding figures to our pending $300k Supplemental Mission Stretch Goal, we realized overnight that the $200k Stretch Goal was looking a little lonely. So in an effort to balance out our stretch goals a little more and at the same time bring that big, juicy, Ironback Spitter into…spitting distance…we’ve decided to collapse all the unlocked stretch goals down by one rung, so:
• The Swamp Gobbers, originally included in the $225k Stretch Goal will now be included in the already Unlocked $200k Stretch Goal along with the supplemental mission, available to ALL REWARD LEVELS! And that brings the current number of figures included in the Deluxe and Premium rewards to 74!
• The Ironback Spitter now moves from the $250k Stretch Goal to the $225k Stretch Goal, and at the time of this writing that puts us just over $21k away from that massive chunk of plastic! We’ve got too much fun planned for the Ironback — she’s just got to make it into the game!
• The 4 Small Tatzylwurms then move from $275k to the $250k goal…
• The $300k Supplemental Mission + “6 Spear Bog Trogs OR 4 Club Gatormen” (but really, we all know how this is going to turn out) moves to $275k.
• The $325k showdown between the Feralgeists and the Tomahawk Gatormen moves to $300k! (And don’t miss that exciting Twitter poll, kicking off at 6 PM PST, tonight!)
You’ll notice that crushing the stretch goal ladder down has temporarily removed the $325k Stretch Goal. We’ll replace this goal shortly as the campaign continues to develop. We’ve got even more ideas that we’re working on to inject into this project and are looking forward to your feedback before we lock in that next goal.
On the social front, we’re over 400 Shares with our Social Goal, and only need another 90 shares to unlock the Autumn Tiles set! Since you’ve only seen it in the grayed out duotone of the locked goal graphic, we’re including a peek here of what the tiles will look like in full color. Please don’t forget to share the post at the following link!
For illustrative purposes only. Final product may vary.
Last, we’d like to share today’s Privateer Press Insider article with you, by RPG producer Matt Goetz where he talks about his proclivity towards kleptomania and how that relates to The Undercity — a lesson that may be applied to Widower’s Wood, as well!
Schmapdi wrote: I love PP as a company - but in many regards they always come off as kind of tightwads to me - never willing to really invest in things like quality plastics (which took ages to show up - and they'll now only use for certain kits).
Honestly, I think this is just down to timing, rather than penny-pinching.
When PP started out, plastics were just too expensive to be an option. It's only really in the last few years that HIPS has been a viable option for smaller companies (and I suspect that for all their popularity we all vastly over-estimate just how 'big' a company PP really is) and the cheaper plastic that they went with instead was the best available option at the time.
Even with the better accessibility to plastic tooling available now, it's not a cheap exercise, and it would be unrealistic to expect everything to be updated immediately. Even GW, with their plastics all done in-house on their own machinery, can only afford to do so much plastic at a time.
And the repeat sculpts in things (like this, and the previous board game) borders on insulting. At least do 2 variants if you're giving us 12 of the same mini.
While I can certain understand the frustration on this (I find it a little disappointing as well) it's only really an issue if you're looking at this game as a source of Warmahordes minis rather than as a standalone boardgame. A boardgame including carbon copies of all of the identical creatures really isn't at all unusual - it's not just a cheaper option, it's much more straightforward for gameplay for those not as familiar with the existing games, as it's easier to tell what is what.
I´m still torn about kickstarter. I know what it´s for, and I like
seeing hobby projects do well. However, the people more likely
to see through their kickstarter projects are the established
companies, whereas the people kickstarter is meant to help
have been less successful at fulfilling their promises.
I should just admit to myself that Kickstarter is here to stay.
Kickstarter still is giving the new guys a chance to start up though- it's just they've got to get a lot more legwork done ahead of time, rather than like it used to be where you could just come with art and a dream and people would believe in you. I think a lot of it at this point is presentation just as much as it is getting things prepped for a campaign.
I can think of at least three upcoming projects that look seriously hot, all made by really small groups and individuals that could give some of the professional companies a good run for their money.
At least in the current KS environment there's room for both to succeed, provided everyone is bringing their A game to the campaign.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Kickstarter still is giving the new guys a chance to start up though- it's just they've got to get a lot more legwork done ahead of time, rather than like it used to be where you could just come with art and a dream and people would believe in you. I think a lot of it at this point is presentation just as much as it is getting things prepped for a campaign.
I can think of at least three upcoming projects that look seriously hot, all made by really small groups and individuals that could give some of the professional companies a good run for their money.
At least in the current KS environment there's room for both to succeed, provided everyone is bringing their A game to the campaign.
To be fair, companies should have done their legwork before, which
is an argument for established companies using kickstarter.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Kickstarter still is giving the new guys a chance to start up though- it's just they've got to get a lot more legwork done ahead of time, rather than like it used to be where you could just come with art and a dream and people would believe in you. I think a lot of it at this point is presentation just as much as it is getting things prepped for a campaign.
I can think of at least three upcoming projects that look seriously hot, all made by really small groups and individuals that could give some of the professional companies a good run for their money.
At least in the current KS environment there's room for both to succeed, provided everyone is bringing their A game to the campaign.
To be fair, companies should have done their legwork before, which
is an argument for established companies using kickstarter.
I've backed a couple of projects by individuals who may have had a company name, but were pretty clearly just launching a solo project. Both were well prepared, and both delivered. One was late, not because of production delays, but because the creator was in Alaska, and didn't feel safe shipping acrylic paint in the winter.
Both were great projects to back, as I have some genuinely unique products. Neither is currently selling their products, which makes me happy I grabbed what I wanted when I did.
So, I think there are upsides to going with unknowns, but clearly apply a healthy sniff test.
It appears that PP is really putting in the effort, albeit in a regrettably uncoordinated way: they have added a new, lower stretch goal that was met this afternoon;
I say 'regrettably' because they seem to have only announced this goal only in the campaign comments, without putting out an update. If you aren't paying very close attention, difficult to notice it.
It is fascinating though, the amount of business justification thrown around at the beginning in order to explain the original SG layout seems to have been... rather more negotiable then originally presented.
malfred wrote: ...whereas the people kickstarter is meant to help have been less successful at fulfilling their promises.
I'd say Kickstarter's meant to help people who haven't made promises. The ones who have been less successful at fulfilling their promises shouldn't be using Kickstarter because people shouldn't be giving people like Tony Reid money in advance.
Yep. KS isn't "meant" do to anything. It's just another fundraising option that creators have, as opposed to, say, a loan from the bank, money from friends, family, or the day job, or profits from other projects they undertook.
If KS is used "wrong", then you might want to tell the people who run KS that. If they're not too busy counting all the money they have because they don't care how KS should be run, they might respond to you.
WW as a KS project seems reasonable enough. Why risk your company on a boardgame when you have a core product to support? Even after they do fund, this project will take resources that the company could use for other projects that they have a better understanding of, namely their core product.
Kickstarter is only being used 'wrong' when projects do not fulfill- and even not every time for those. It doesn't actually level the playing field for a large company and small companies- but it does allow for a lot more projects to get made from both large and small companies (and everything in between).
Buzzsaw wrote:
It is fascinating though, the amount of business justification thrown around at the beginning in order to explain the original SG layout seems to have been... rather more negotiable then originally presented.
Clearly, it was negotiated. And I mean it in that way: they must have held meetings about changing their campaign strategy.
Privateer Press is a larger company than some of the ones that run kickstarters- and a lot of the Kickstarters I've followed have been put together by someone who can make all of the decisions and changes to the plan by themselves (small group of game developers or sometimes a one man show). Yeah, sometimes they get excited and make poor financial choices (Adam Poots of Kingdom Death) but they also have a mobility to make quick changes to a kickstarter, and react to what is going on without taking hours or days to get the relevant people to talk about things.
For Privateer Press, I don't know who is actually at the keyboard posting comments, but it is pretty clear that they got the OK from above to make some of the changes that we're seeing. Honestly, I think it is pretty encouraging that they've been listening to their audience so much.
And Undercity is a pretty cool game, mechanically. And PP's sculpts are good minis (even with CMON and Ninja Division upping the bar for miniatures board games). I think that the project has a good chance of having a really strong finish.
odinsgrandson wrote: Kickstarter is only being used 'wrong' when projects do not fulfill- and even not every time for those. It doesn't actually level the playing field for a large company and small companies- but it does allow for a lot more projects to get made from both large and small companies (and everything in between).
I think the best example of an established company using Kickstarter is Reaper. They'd shown that Bones work, but each kickstarter allowed them to produce several times what they could have made in a year. Certainly by the second or third, they could have secured more traditional financing, but the thing with Bones is that it's so painfully cheap to manufacture that I wouldn't be surprised if Reaper is able to fulfill it's pledges for pennies on the dollar. So a person pledges $200, and reaper spends a tenth of that making the bones, and maybe another tenth sorting, packinging, and shipping them. That's a great deal, especially if you can benefit from economies of scale throughout the pipeline (something, say, Mantic struggles with).
The bottom line is that I trust that Reaper can do more with Kickstarter than it could with cash reserves, and arguably even more than if they had to take on debt.
I don't think that's true for this project. Privateer Press has produced several board games all on its own. That it's choosing to do so now is something that tips me off that they don't have the confidence in their product that I'd hope for. I'd never tell people not to back a product because I don't like something, but this strikes me less as a company branching out or expanding faster, and more about them just trying to hedge their risk with a new product. That's fine for some people, but it rubs me the wrong way. I'm also not in the market for hobby board games, so I might feel different if they were pitching something I liked.
odinsgrandson wrote: Reaper is a great example. Especially looking at how fiscally conservative they seem to run their business, KS is a real boon to their bones line.
Never been a huge fan of the PP style, but will definitely consider picking this game up at the 48 hour left mark if the shown stretch goals all get unlocked. I'm making a very mixed herd army for KOW and all the Gator folk would be welcome additions to the group.
I don't think that's true for this project. Privateer Press has produced several board games all on its own. That it's choosing to do so now is something that tips me off that they don't have the confidence in their product that I'd hope for. I'd never tell people not to back a product because I don't like something, but this strikes me less as a company branching out or expanding faster, and more about them just trying to hedge their risk with a new product. That's fine for some people, but it rubs me the wrong way. I'm also not in the market for hobby board games, so I might feel different if they were pitching something I liked.
Considering that they've apparently said this might not even make it to retail space; dependent on retailer demand, that's probably very true.
odinsgrandson wrote: Reaper is a great example. Especially looking at how fiscally conservative they seem to run their business, KS is a real boon to their bones line.
Privateer Press has really improved their communication and flexibility throughout the campaign, and since the last post in this topic they have unlocked three new stretch goals:
The Ironback Spitter
Spoiler:
The Spear Bog Trog Boss
Spoiler:
And two Feralgeists
Spoiler:
There is also currently a vote going on for determining whether the $350K stretch goal will be a Kickstarter exclusive Blackhide Wrastler or a Swamp Horror
Spoiler:
The way they have been handling it also makes it seem likely that whichever figure doesn't win will likely be added as a stretch goal or social stretch goal later on.
I think this kickstarter is definitely a good value at this point, and the more people who join in, the better it will get. At this point I'm thrilled that it looks like I'll be getting almost an entire Blindwater Congregation army out of it (I only play friendly games and local tournaments, so the whole "no use in organized tournaments" thing doesn't bother me) . I'd appreciate anybody helping to spread the word.
Great to have you on board! The poll has finished and the results are that the Blackhide Wrastler has been added as the $350K stretch goal and the Swamp Horror has been added as the $375K goal. Assuming the KS gets that far (which I have no doubt it will) it means that there will three different gator warbeasts, which I think is an awesome deal considering the price and everything else that comes in the set.
They will also be hosting a Twitch video showing a group playing through the game on March 4th at 4 PM PST, so anyone who wants to see the game in action can check that out.
We are currently just under $3700 away from unlocking another set of four viper tatzylwurms, which will bring the total up to 83 miniatures:
Spoiler:
As before, any help sharing news of this Kickstarter around would be appreciated.
odinsgrandson wrote: Reaper is a great example. Especially looking at how fiscally conservative they seem to run their business, KS is a real boon to their bones line.
I wouldn't mind painting for them, but they tend to keep their painters in-house- which means that I'd need to move.
I'm crazy. I could have sworn you had done something. I think I got you confused with jah joshua. Oops.
No offense taken. I've been mistaken for Ron Kruzie at Gencon, though never before for someone quite so hirsute. I was wearing a black tee-shirt and looking at the Avatars of War minis at the CMON booth- a guy came up to raz me about buying other company's minis.
I mentioned it to Ron later, and he talked about all of the many different companies' minis that he has.
Is there a map of what currently IS included? Things have shifted so much I'm a bit confused and I am not certain the image on the campaign page is up to date.
The map on the main page is currently up to date, but make sure to count everything listed for the pledge level you are interested in. Hopefully we will be unlocking the set of additional Tatzylwurms today, which would add another four models to all reward levels.
Slayer Dragonwing wrote: The map on the main page is currently up to date, but make sure to count everything listed for the pledge level you are interested in. Hopefully we will be unlocking the set of additional Tatzylwurms today, which would add another four models to all reward levels.
Thanks, I saw the discussion about MSRP value after posting that. Do we know how much of the "bonus" content that's getting tacked on as unlocks will be in the retail version? I'm extremely conflicted on this one because I'm looking at Undercity on MM at less than $60 and seeing where this is, I am trying to find logic that tells me to support this but feeling like I'd be better off buying Descent or just fantasy miniatures..
MLaw wrote: Do we know how much of the "bonus" content that's getting tacked on as unlocks will be in the retail version?
Again, we don't even know if this will go to retail at all. PP has said it depends on retailer interest.
Oh.. Doesn't that seem almost a bit like they're ransoming the availability of the game? It feels almost a bit like those furniture companies threatening to go out of business every other week. Do we REALLY think they'd invest the manpower and resources to developing a boardgames and NOT have it go to retail?
MLaw wrote: Do we REALLY think they'd invest the manpower and resources to developing a boardgames and NOT have it go to retail?
PP are producing a minimally viable product to cash in on the KS board game craze. They have admitted that they regard the quality as gak. I really would not be surprised if they only produced enough to fulfill backer pledges and not a copy more.
PP are producing a minimally viable product to cash in on the KS board game craze. They have admitted that they regard the quality as gak. I really would not be surprised if they only produced enough to fulfill backer pledges and not a copy more.
I wouldn't say that. They said that the figures are not quite as high quality as their hard plastic and metal figures, but I have handled the ones from Undercity and the quality is fine. I certainly wouldn't call them gak. Some of the figures do have bending issues, but that can be fixed with the old hot water/cold water treatment, and the thicker figures are solid. Some pictures of painted Undercity miniatures can be found here.
On another note, the project unlocked another stretch goal over the weekend, adding four more viper tatzylwurms, for a total of 83 miniatures currently included in the Deluxe Pledge and 54 in the core game pledge:
Spoiler:
The next stretch goal is the Boss Swamb Gobber:
Spoiler:
And hopefully a new social stretch goal will be posted soon.
PP are producing a minimally viable product to cash in on the KS board game craze. They have admitted that they regard the quality as gak. I really would not be surprised if they only produced enough to fulfill backer pledges and not a copy more.
I wouldn't say that. They said that the figures are not quite as high quality as their hard plastic and metal figures, but I have handled the ones from Undercity and the quality is fine. I certainly wouldn't call them gak. Some of the figures do have bending issues, but that can be fixed with the old hot water/cold water treatment, and the thicker figures are solid. Some pictures of painted Undercity miniatures can be found http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?246416-Post-Your-Painted-Undercity-and-Unleashed-miniatures.
On another note, the project unlocked another stretch goal over the weekend, adding four more viper tatzylwurms, for a total of 83 miniatures currently included in the Deluxe Pledge and 54 in the core game pledge:
Spoiler:
The next stretch goal is the Boss Swamb Gobber:
Spoiler:
And hopefully a new social stretch goal will be posted soon.
Ehhhh... I dunno that "the quality is fine" for the previous game is really an objective standard. The video evidence tends to mitigate towards them being... not so very high on the quality scale;
They seem a lot closer to Bones (Reaper miniatures) then anything else. But be that as it may, for a pure boardgame experience it may (or may not ,YMMV) be fine.
Personally, it's the lack of new heroes that is killing my excitement for this. There are so many possibilities, and since the first dump that added 3 heroes (all humanoids) there hasn't been much talk about them. It's just turned into a bit of a grind, at least to me.
Ehhhh... I dunno that "the quality is fine" for the previous game is really an objective standard. The video evidence tends to mitigate towards them being... not so very high on the quality scale;
They seem a lot closer to Bones (Reaper miniatures) then anything else. But be that as it may, for a pure boardgame experience it may (or may not ,YMMV) be fine.
Personally, it's the lack of new heroes that is killing my excitement for this. There are so many possibilities, and since the first dump that added 3 heroes (all humanoids) there hasn't been much talk about them. It's just turned into a bit of a grind, at least to me.
I personally think they are more rigid and more detailed than Bones. It is hard to get a good idea of what they look like from an internet video, but I have the Undercity and think that they are similar quality to the Warmahordes tabletop figures. There are some examples of what the Undercity figures look like painted here. (I am reposting the link since it didn't work right in my previous post).
I feel your desire for more new heroes too, and am hoping we see some more as stretch goals, but we will have to wait and see.
Those painted models look good but the picture with the human shows the same problem bones have. These soft materials have a LOT of shrinkage and fine facial features on human sized heads (especially noses) tend to disappear. Her nose is almost non-existent. I don't know that that's a damning fact or anything since the main focus of WW is figures that don't have human noses..
As to the Bones comparison. I'm a backer of 2 of the Bones projects already. I have been painting Bones miniatures for a few. They are bendy.. yup. However.. the only problems I have with paint coming off are from me being an idiot and believing the whole "no need to prime" BS that Reaper was claiming. Bending hasn't (yet) been the cause of any of the paint on my figures coming off. That said, I also am not in the habit of grabbing my figures and furiously bending their arms around like that other video a few posts up. I imagine if I were, then maybe I would have some problems.
I'm not trying to take a stance either way, as I am not sold on these types of figures at anything above $1 each.. but.. it's also a game. Cashing in on the craze or not, you can't fault PP for a market that has established $150 board games as the norm. They just happen to be Johnny come lately in this case.
Buzzsaw wrote: But be that as it may, for a pure boardgame experience it may (or may not ,YMMV) be fine. .
That's the key, really. The people complaining about the quality seem to be holding them up against wargaming figures and finding them wanting... But they're not wargaming figures. They're tokens for a boardgame, and for that purpose they're more than good enough.
I do find it odd that I've never heard anyone complain about the bendiness of Zombicide minis or Blood Rage minis.
I have handled the material, and the quality is fine. They are made of PVC, and it is a softer PVC than they normally use (a little less bendy than Bones, but you'll need to straighten out spears).
The detail cast well- although not as well as their resin and metal lines.
Overall, I'd be very surprised if this game does not become available after the Kickstarter.
Ehhhh... I dunno that "the quality is fine" for the previous game is really an objective standard. The video evidence tends to mitigate towards them being... not so very high on the quality scale;
They seem a lot closer to Bones (Reaper miniatures) then anything else. But be that as it may, for a pure boardgame experience it may (or may not ,YMMV) be fine.
Personally, it's the lack of new heroes that is killing my excitement for this. There are so many possibilities, and since the first dump that added 3 heroes (all humanoids) there hasn't been much talk about them. It's just turned into a bit of a grind, at least to me.
I personally think they are more rigid and more detailed than Bones. It is hard to get a good idea of what they look like from an internet video, but I have the Undercity and think that they are similar quality to the Warmahordes tabletop figures. There are some examples of what the Undercity figures look like painted here. (I am reposting the link since it didn't work right in my previous post).
I feel your desire for more new heroes too, and am hoping we see some more as stretch goals, but we will have to wait and see.
I have the undercity models as well. Saying they're similar quality to the wmh models is a total lie, unless you think the wmh models are crap. At the least my wmh models aren't so damn bendy. I've had bases for the miniatures that are warped and the minis feel like rubber. Compared to a lot of other boardgames I own, under city has really bendy and soft figures
Sining wrote: I have the undercity models as well. Saying they're similar quality to the wmh models is a total lie, unless you think the wmh models are crap. At the least my wmh models aren't so damn bendy. I've had bases for the miniatures that are warped and the minis feel like rubber. Compared to a lot of other boardgames I own, under city has really bendy and soft figures
Being bendy isn't in itself a sign of poor quality. The level of detail is the important issue, if you're looking for wargaming-quality miniatures.
Sining wrote: I'd like my wargaming miniatures to not be incredibly bendy as well.
Really? These are not WARGAMING MINIATURES.. they're boardgame pieces. This is like comparing the WotC pre-paint D&D figures to the chainmail pieces they did in metal.
If these are going to be viewed as bulk purchase super cheap minis then their closest comparison is Reaper Bones. Which, from all accounts, they're comparable to. If they are to be compared to tabletop miniatures (which PP has made clear is NOT the goal) then the price would need to be substantially higher for that level of model. Thinking we can have our cake and eat it too is misguided.
Well, it looks like the 'lul' period is well and truly in force now;
Spoiler:
Two days of sub $1k gains in the last week, no backsliding at least though.
For those curious, I stand by my earlier critique that the real excitement that drives a boardgame campaign is different heroes, and WW (for some reason) frontloaded all the heroes and hasn't (to the best of my knowledge) even teased any of the ideas people were advancing (they totally should be making the female warpborn skinwalker I suggested).
There remain a lot of choices in this campaign that I simply don't understand. The most inexplicable is the decision that the models are outright banned from tournament play. That just strikes me as a completely unnecessary poke in the eye to backers.
*looks at unassembled pile of bent, moldline-ridden Convergence restic gak*
In fairness.. I just got in a box of Steelhead Halbrieders (for converting into Hobgoblins) and the quality is fantastic. Same for the Swamp Gobber chef.
skarsol wrote: It's avoiding a poke in the eye to existing players of their main game.
The problem with that idea, which I do understand, is that this kind of reasoning mitigates against ever making anything better. After all, somebody has to be the last person to buy the 'crappy PVC' version of a kit before it gets redone.
It seems like a variety of the gambler's/sunk cost fallacy: that making improved or alternate kits devalues existing kits. Which is, to a certain extent, true, but it's not the whole picture.
It would seem to em that the best argument against that logic is that new (better) kits, as well as new ways to get into the game... bring new and different people into the game.
So, let's imagine they let people use these in official events, what's the cost? Well, established gatorman players that had to buy metal gators earlier now see a lot of people using these PVC figures. But at the same time, loads more people will be getting into gators, because just by buying into WW, you now have a bunch of models that work for a gatorman force. But you still need to buy Gatorman warlocks, solos, beast, etc. It also means that people that are already in Warmahordes that had considered Gators, but avoided taking the plunge for fear of the costs, now have a reason to buy into WW because it does dual service.
Of course, like I said, to me the interesting part of these campaigns is the heroes. Would be nice to see some talk about a new one...
I dunno.. I see it as a way to familiarize people with models they might not be familiar with or willing to drop a bunch of money on. I own a fair amount of Bones... The models from that which really stood out to me have me adding the metal counterpart to my collection or at the very least my wish list (except for the big stuff which is usually quite good in bones).
I mention it because, I have window shopped Privateer Press stuff for a long time. Outside of the 2 purchases I mentioned earlier, I haven't bought anything of theirs since Warmachine came out. I used store credit from a 40k tournament I won to pick up some Hordes stuff when it was fairly new but I think that's been almost a decade ago. Cut to 2016, where I'm seeing units costing what I consider to be borderline absurd prices (some are purely absurd to me) so the sticker shock alone has me reluctant to buy anything or even break out my old stuff for a spin.
If I do back this, it'll give me exposure to a LOT of models and I think people like me who may have grown away from PP's games might be the target audience here (wild guess based on nothing). That sort of target audience is IMO unlikely to wander into an officially overseen tournament. Likewise, I think the diehard PP fans who are probably the other large portion of target audience probably already have tournament level armies. Again.. this is all speculation.. but I still maintain that people expecting to get $2 models that are comparable to their restic or metal counterpart aren't being realistic at all.
skarsol wrote: It's avoiding a poke in the eye to existing players of their main game.
Isn't that saying that these models are of such bad quality that they would disturb players if they were brought to tournaments?
If so that's a pretty damning indictment of models you're attempting to sell.
Privateer also has an RPG setting and as a father who wouldn't mind some of these bendy things for my 12 and 13 year olds, the lower cost entry level models aren't hurting my feelings. It allows me to teach them W/H without having to sell a kidney/car/house/family member..
Zywus wrote: Isn't that saying that these models are of such bad quality that they would disturb players if they were brought to tournaments?
If so that's a pretty damning indictment of models you're attempting to sell.
No it isn't.
If I have a company that makes, say, rally cars, and I run regular rally tournaments for people who own my rally cars... and then I release a little two-seater, battery-powered city hopper that I don't allow to enter my rally tournaments, is that a sign that my new car is poor quality?
Or is it just a sign that it's designed for a different purpose than the rally cars are?
Same thing here... If the miniatures aren't as good quality as wargaming miniatures, that's only an 'indictment' of them if they're actually being sold as wargaming miniatures.
spiralingcadaver wrote: What if your cheaper rally car you now sell is functionally identical, but less flashy?
Functionally identical? Meaning they serve the same function... which.. is to sit on the table and be a counter for a game? By that logic, a piece of toast is functionally identical as is a rock or a smudge of belly button lint. However, since the people who make this have exempted these from the rules.
This is the weirdest discussion/argument ever.. it's "these are terribly horrible bendy figures with really bad details.. but we demand the right to use them in tournaments!!!".. what? I .. don't even..
Some people want cheap armies, and the board game models represent (or can easily be slightly modified to represent) the same things.
And no, the analogy would be comparing a piece of okay but overpriced toast to a piece of burnt toast that happens to be cheaper. Some people wouldn't want the worse one, some people would want a deal, and the diner slaps the crappy one out of their hand and says crappy toast only goes with crappy coffee, not nice coffee!
I prefer nice toast at a decent price to either, though, so I don't like that diner.
Zywus wrote: Isn't that saying that these models are of such bad quality that they would disturb players if they were brought to tournaments?
If so that's a pretty damning indictment of models you're attempting to sell.
No it isn't.
If I have a company that makes, say, rally cars, and I run regular rally tournaments for people who own my rally cars... and then I release a little two-seater, battery-powered city hopper that I don't allow to enter my rally tournaments, is that a sign that my new car is poor quality?
Or is it just a sign that it's designed for a different purpose than the rally cars are?
Same thing here... If the miniatures aren't as good quality as wargaming miniatures, that's only an 'indictment' of them if they're actually being sold as wargaming miniatures.
They're not. They're tokens for a boardgame.
The difference between models and the car analogy is that cars have function beyond their appearance, models don't.
Either the miniatures for WW are of so low quality that there are legitimate reasons for why you won't allow them in your tournament. (They have such low quality that people can't see what the're supposed to represent) or it comes of as petty. A arbitrary restriction of what you're allowed to use the models for.
Judging from the pictures, to me it looks more like the latter.
Does Warhahorde 'official tournaments' usually have painting requirements BTW?
You're still missing the point - Being considered not good enough to be used in their wargaming tournaments doesn't make the miniatures bad. It just makes them bad for use as wargaming miniatures ... Which they're not designed to be in the first place.
A Monopoly token is also quite bad quality compared to most wargaming miniatures. But as a boardgame token, it's perfectly acceptable. And still would be even if the company that makes Monopoly also made a wargame that used similarly designed but better quality miniatures.
Is the complaint that the models are of such crappy quality they're not worth buying like some people are saying or that they're so good, you want to use them as your army in tournaments?
And all that toast.. man.. now I'm hungry :(
Automatically Appended Next Post:
insaniak wrote: You're still missing the point - Being considered not good enough to be used in their wargaming tournaments doesn't make the miniatures bad. It just makes them bad for use as wargaming miniatures ... Which they're not designed to be in the first place.
A Monopoly token is also quite bad quality compared to most wargaming miniatures. But as a boardgame token, it's perfectly acceptable. And still would be even if the company that makes Monopoly also made a wargame that used similarly designed but better quality miniatures.
THIS!
Look at the Dungeon Saga pieces.. they are utter GAK.. I am not sure how Mantic feels about using them in events but would you really want to?
I don't think PP makes very good models- to the point that I consider them closer to board game pieces already, than to lines like wyrd, corvus belli, kingdom death, even GW in all their overwrought gaudiness, where the minis have varying degrees of merit and were considered a priority, beyond being game tokens (and yes, of course they're all game tokens, from the best display-painted character to the lowliest cardboard chit). I think that you should be allowed to use worse models regardless of if they're worse since they're still just game pieces.
In fact, I'd say that of all the above games- if they're recognizable and the right size, I think there's nothing wrong with discount space marines or monsters or whatever. I really like the hobby, but if you're just in it for the rules, why pay more for content you don't care about?
MLaw wrote: Look at the Dungeon Saga pieces.. they are utter GAK.. I am not sure how Mantic feels about using them in events but would you really want to?
Is this sarcasm?
Cause the Dungeon Saga models are more than good enough to stand up against the regular Mantic models, (some are arguably better) and not just compared to the lesser of Mantics offerings, like the much maligned men-at-arms, but they give the regular Undead range (generally considered Mantic's best stuff) a run for it's money.
Are people seriously claiming that the WW models, given a decent paintjob, would look out of place mixed in with PP's regular models?
spiralingcadaver wrote: I don't think PP makes very good models- to the point that I consider them closer to board game pieces already, than to lines like wyrd, corvus belli, kingdom death, even GW in all their overwrought gaudiness, where the minis have varying degrees of merit and were considered a priority, beyond being game tokens (and yes, of course they're all game tokens, from the best display-painted character to the lowliest cardboard chit). I think that you should be allowed to use worse models regardless of if they're worse since they're still just game pieces.
In fact, I'd say that of all the above games- if they're recognizable and the right size, I think there's nothing wrong with discount space marines or monsters or whatever. I really like the hobby, but if you're just in it for the rules, why pay more for content you don't care about?
If you're not a fan of PP models in the first place then you don't really have a dog in this fight..
On Mantic's DS stuff.. I'm not even going to respond to that. If you think they're of good quality then we don't have a legitimate frame of reference upon which to communicate.
No, not particularly, just discussing things b/c I used to like the company more, and a big discount on some okay-quality guys could have been enough to push me back their way, but they're not doing it.
MLaw wrote: On Mantic's DS stuff.. I'm not even going to respond to that. If you think they're of good quality then we don't have a legitimate frame of reference upon which to communicate.
This is going off topic so I won't belabor the point further. I'll just post some comparasion pictures and then leave it be.
Apparently you feel it's totally absurd to claim that these miniatures:
Spoiler:
Dungeon Saga undead:
are even comparable to these:
Spoiler:
Mantic Undead for KoW:
I obviously feel they are (and arguably better looking), but whatever. That's just like, my opinion, man.
Those aren't the production miniatures. Mantic has a bad habit of using the master sculpts to represent what you're going to kit in their KS.. Watch some unboxing videos of DS contents.
Back on-topic but related to that point.. DS and WW are using soft plastics which have shrinkage and bendyness. That's where most of the loss of detail comes from. I'm personally glad PP is being so up front about the quality of minis because if they used the existing game versions of those models painted by studio painters and then gakky boardgame plastics with soft details showed up people would be livid.
Well, it looks like they're going to close out the week with a majority of days over the $1k line, though today (Friday's) pledges seem in no small part buoyed by the addition of a new, 'luxury' pledge level. I'm a fan of woodwork, but this new addition is pushing it, price wise.
I continue to find it difficult to muster enthusiasm as the campaign continues, and I think the reason is the very limited hero selection. I understand it: heroes, being individual sculpts, are going to be some of the most expensive things to add. On the other hand, I really think that they are the animating force for a boardgame campaign of this type. Look at all the big campaigns; Zombicide, Arcadia Quest, Super Dungeon Explore, even going back to Sedition Wars.
Unlike table top games, these kinds of games lend them-self easily to the idea of player-avatar, and if there isn't a hero that interests you, I think that it is very difficult for people to get emotionally interested in the game. The current line-up of heroes is... well, rather lacking, IMO. Not least of which because it's supposed to be a 'monster hero' game, and most of the heroes are now humans/elves. Not only that, but two of the seven are characters that already exist in WM/Hordes, and already have miniatures.
Buzzsaw wrote: Well, it looks like the 'lul' period is well and truly in force now;
Spoiler:
Two days of sub $1k gains in the last week, no backsliding at least though.
For those curious, I stand by my earlier critique that the real excitement that drives a boardgame campaign is different heroes, and WW (for some reason) frontloaded all the heroes and hasn't (to the best of my knowledge) even teased any of the ideas people were advancing (they totally should be making the female warpborn skinwalker I suggested).
There remain a lot of choices in this campaign that I simply don't understand. The most inexplicable is the decision that the models are outright banned from tournament play. That just strikes me as a completely unnecessary poke in the eye to backers.
Zywus wrote: Does Warhahorde 'official tournaments' usually have painting requirements BTW?
The Steamroller format, as standard, doesn't - that's the one you're likely to see played at LGS-size events. I think there is a Steamroller variant that allows you to add a painting requirement, but if there is, I don't think it is a popular variant.
Some of the convention-level events may have painting requirements - I remember that the Hardcore format had them, for example, but I'm not sure if the replacement format does.
Zywus wrote: Does Warhahorde 'official tournaments' usually have painting requirements BTW?
The Steamroller format, as standard, doesn't - that's the one you're likely to see played at LGS-size events. I think there is a Steamroller variant that allows you to add a painting requirement, but if there is, I don't think it is a popular variant.
Some of the convention-level events may have painting requirements - I remember that the Hardcore format had them, for example, but I'm not sure if the replacement format does.
If so, I'd say it's pretty obvious that disallowing the WW models in the official tournaments have nothing to do with any concerns about the game's presentation, since a force of painted and based WW models (even to a fairly rudimentary standard) would still look far more appealing to than a unpainted force of 'proper' bare metal/plastic/resin/restic Warmahode models.
It's a purely artificial restriction, intended to discourage the use of cheaper but fully functional models.
Zywus wrote: Does Warhahorde 'official tournaments' usually have painting requirements BTW?
The Steamroller format, as standard, doesn't - that's the one you're likely to see played at LGS-size events. I think there is a Steamroller variant that allows you to add a painting requirement, but if there is, I don't think it is a popular variant.
Some of the convention-level events may have painting requirements - I remember that the Hardcore format had them, for example, but I'm not sure if the replacement format does.
Hardcore does/did
Champions (new format replacing Hardcore) will
Iron Gauntlet (PP's "premier" format) is also fully painted
Any SR event can be mandated as fully painted, but its rare to never enforced as it drives players away and that's never a good thing.
A Monopoly token is also quite bad quality compared to most wargaming miniatures. But as a boardgame token, it's perfectly acceptable. And still would be even if the company that makes Monopoly also made a wargame that used similarly designed but better quality miniatures.
THIS!
Look at the Dungeon Saga pieces.. they are utter GAK.. I am not sure how Mantic feels about using them in events but would you really want to?
MODS know that I give Mantic enough grief about their issues, but I have to stick up for their dungeon saga models. They are good quality and some like the troll zombies are great. the weak legged skeletons aside Dungeon saga has some great figures. Takes a little work with bending to fix them, but for the price they are great. But to each their own.
I haven't decided on this one yet, I don't play hordes or warmachine, but some of these will look good in my KOW Herd army that I am building.
For anyone who has much experience playing the Undercity game, what are your thoughts? Is the game fun? I like the premise, and really enjoy the Iron Kingdoms setting/fluff, the figures are all right looking (though, the rubbery nature of the minis kind of has me a little gun shy, as I'd like to use the figures for Warmahordes as well) .
And is this basically a carbon copy of Undercity, except in the woods rather than underground?
Fango wrote: (though, the rubbery nature of the minis kind of has me a little gun shy, as I'd like to use the figures for Warmahordes as well) .
Going by the painted pics shown earlier in the thread, they would be fine (outside of 'official' events, obviously). If they're the same plastic as the Grind miniatures, it's softer than the regular plastic and slightly flexible, but still more 'soft plastic' than 'hard rubber'..
Fango wrote: For anyone who has much experience playing the Undercity game, what are your thoughts? Is the game fun? I like the premise, and really enjoy the Iron Kingdoms setting/fluff, the figures are all right looking (though, the rubbery nature of the minis kind of has me a little gun shy, as I'd like to use the figures for Warmahordes as well) .
And is this basically a carbon copy of Undercity, except in the woods rather than underground?
I've played it. It's okish. You can level your characters and choose different traits/skills much like Imperial Assault. The game AI can be gamed so there are times where you will just steamroll the mission. The biggest question is if you subscribe to NQ, PPs magazine. If not, you're stuck with only the base 8 missions with NO variety in them. Yep, a 99usd rrp game only has base 8 missions with no variety. And it's linear too so if you fail the mission, it doesn't lead to another mission like imperial assault does. You just have to keep replaying it till you pass.
I've played it. It's okish. You can level your characters and choose different traits/skills much like Imperial Assault. The game AI can be gamed so there are times where you will just steamroll the mission. The biggest question is if you subscribe to NQ, PPs magazine. If not, you're stuck with only the base 8 missions with NO variety in them. Yep, a 99usd rrp game only has base 8 missions with no variety. And it's linear too so if you fail the mission, it doesn't lead to another mission like imperial assault does. You just have to keep replaying it till you pass.
That's a big reason I would recommend this Kickstarter if people are interested in getting the game, since the KS version will contain extra missions, including ones using the KS exclusive models. The heroes from Widower's Wood can also be used in the Undercity and vice-versa, which increases replayability as well.
Which brings me to a fairly sizable update. The Boss Swamp Gobber has been unlocked:
Spoiler:
The Blackhide Wrastler has also been converted into a social stretch goal, with 1000 Facebook shares and 500 Twitter retweets needed to unlock it:
Spoiler:
At the rate that it is going, it is likely that the Wrastler will be unlocked today or early tomorrow, before the 48 hour reminder emails go out. This is also good news, since it moves the Swamp Horror stretch goal down a slot, meaning that it is $25,000 closer than it was before.
The value of the KS is definitely still increasing, and I am hoping that we see a large upswing in the last 48 hours, so any help in spreading the word is appreciated. I also definitely recommend pledging to anyone who wants to get into the game, due to all the added value.
Which, come to think of it, should be showing up on store shelves fairly soon....
The KS sculpt is based on the new plastic Wrastler, but has a few unique features, for example the Ironback shell on the right arm and feathers added to the hood. As far as we know this particular sculpt will be KS exclusive.
The campaign is also halfway to the next stretch goal, which is another four club gatormen and another new scenario, which is another nice increase in value for people who want minis and increased replay value:
Spoiler:
I will try to get a post together later tonight to show the rough wargaming value of the KS for those, like myself, who are looking at using the miniatures from Widower's Wood in non-convention games of Hordes and Warmachine.
Zywus wrote: Does Warhahorde 'official tournaments' usually have painting requirements BTW?
The Steamroller format, as standard, doesn't - that's the one you're likely to see played at LGS-size events. I think there is a Steamroller variant that allows you to add a painting requirement, but if there is, I don't think it is a popular variant.
Some of the convention-level events may have painting requirements - I remember that the Hardcore format had them, for example, but I'm not sure if the replacement format does.
If so, I'd say it's pretty obvious that disallowing the WW models in the official tournaments have nothing to do with any concerns about the game's presentation, since a force of painted and based WW models (even to a fairly rudimentary standard) would still look far more appealing to than a unpainted force of 'proper' bare metal/plastic/resin/restic Warmahode models.
It's a purely artificial restriction, intended to discourage the use of cheaper but fully functional models.
Not artificial at all, actually. There's shrinkage in the models with attached bases in stuff like the Unleashed box and Undercity. The bases are 1-2mm smaller in diameter than an actual WM/H 30mm base.
I guess it would have been impossible to take shrinkage into account to have them be the same size.
And it would be equally, if not more so, impossible for anyone to move the models to official bases:
The only solution is to disallow the models outright from 'official tournaments' or people will try to gain unfair advantages with their boardgame miniatures with 1-2mm smaller bases. Not artificial at all.
Zywus wrote: I guess it would have been impossible to take shrinkage into account to have them be the same size.
And it would be equally, if not more so, impossible for anyone to move the models to official bases:
The only solution is to disallow the models outright from 'official tournaments' or people will try to gain unfair advantages with their boardgame miniatures with 1-2mm smaller bases. Not artificial at all.
I've gotta jump in here and defend PP. My mother in law can determine clay shrinkage with a ruler made from calculations freely available online and a photoshopped pair of rulers. Do you think PP could just browse around the internet for 10 minutes or, say, their spend a few minutes to ask for manufacturers' calculations, and find those numbers for free to scale their minis appropriately? Time is money! Due diligence is too expensive!
This is a really bizarre place for gamer outrage to show up.
I"m guessing the models don't account for shrinkage because it doesn't matter in boardgame materials, and they simply used the same (or altered) masters as the pewter models.
Still, they want to make some pretty cool boardgame tokens. They don't want people to use them instead of the more expensive proper kits. If you think you've just cracked the case of the profit seeking company, take a bow Nancy Drew.
Pretty sure I mentioned shrinkage a few pages back. I think Polonius' notion is the right direction. For them to have the boardgame pieces in the exact same size as the proper line that would've meant new sculpts and tooling and all that.
As I mentioned previously this is probably why the vast majority of this KS is non-humans with broader features. Shrinkage doesn't destroy noses and fingers on models that have massive snouts and webbed flippers.
@ polonius- Man, way to overreact. I'm just poking at 'em with a stick since I think it was lazy at best and more likely just about protecting their (overpriced) prices.
Polonius wrote: This is a really bizarre place for gamer outrage to show up.
I"m guessing the models don't account for shrinkage because it doesn't matter in boardgame materials, and they simply used the same (or altered) masters as the pewter models.
Still, they want to make some pretty cool boardgame tokens. They don't want people to use them instead of the more expensive proper kits. If you think you've just cracked the case of the profit seeking company, take a bow Nancy Drew.
Well, duh.
You could almost describe it like:
Zywus wrote: It's a purely artificial restriction, intended to discourage the use of cheaper but fully functional models.
I've never argued otherwise. I just think it's petty. And it's silly that people pretend that there is another reason for disallowing the models.
You can just clip the model off the bases and rebase them. Or even just stick them on the actual base size with the boardgame base included. Actual model height doesn't matter since WMH has fixed heights for models
The last social stretch goal is a success, and the Blackhide Wrastler has been added to the deluxe edition pledge rewards, meaning that a pledge of that level now includes two heavy warbeasts:
Spoiler:
We are currently less than $1500 away from the next stretch goal, four additional club gatormen and a new scenario, and look poised to unlock that goal before the 48 hour reminder e-mail goes out:
Spoiler:
I am personally hoping for a big upsurge in pledges over the last few days of the campaign, and am excited to see what other stretch goals have not yet been revealed. The value of the pledge has increased a lot since the beginning of the campaign, and I am hopeful it will increase a great deal more before the campaign is over. Any assistance spreading the word is appreciated.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The campaign has entered its last 48 hours and the pace has certainly accelerated. Just today we have unlocked an additional four gatormen and another scenario:
The deluxe edition pledge currently has 89 miniatures in it, as well as other Kickstarter exclusive material for the game, and I thought I would do a quick rundown of what is in it that could be proxied for Hordes. I know that these miniatures cannot be used in official tournaments, but with a simple rebasing (or without) they can easily be used in friendly games at home and at LGSs (the campaign coordinator even said that this would be acceptable, it is only official convention tournaments where this might be an issue). I have put together a list of models that can be easily proxied, as well as their points costs. I have not included miniatures that do not have a figure they naturally align with, like the small tatzylwurms (although some could be argued, like the Swamp Gobbers proxying for River Raiders); or miniatures that could be used to represent a large number of models (like Vaskis potentially standing in for almost any Druid of Orboros solo or unit leader).
At the current time the box contains:
Blindwater Congregation
2 Bog Trog Mist Speakers (2x?=?)
1 Full unit of Bog Trog Ambushers (8)
2 Full units of Gatormen Posse (2x9=18)
2 Gatormen Witch Doctors (2x3=6)
1 Unit of Gtorman Bokor and Bog Trog Swamp Shamblers (6)
2 Boneswarms (2x4=8)
1 Ironback Spitter (8)
1 Blackhide Wrastler (9)
Croak Hunter (2)
That's 65 points of Gatormen, more than enough for most games. All a player will need is a warlock (although the boss gatorman witch doctor could easily stand in) and they are ready to go. There are also 3 points of Circle Orboros solos and 6 points of assorted minion solos, and that is not counting the pistol wraiths or thralls that could be used in Warmachine. If people want to use the Privateer Press bits store it would be an even better value, since by purchasing two more models they can add Dahlia and Skarath and Alexia and her unit of thralls to their army. I don't have time to work out how much all of that would cost to buy individually, but I know it would be a huge amount.
If we reach all the stretch goals that are currently listed (and there are more beyond those that we can hope for) it will add:
1 More unit of Gatormen Posse (9)
3 More Gatormen Witch Doctors (3x3=9)
1 Swamp Horror (8)
Another 26 points of gatormen, plus a boss small tatzylwurm and three more missions for the board game.
Overall I think this is an awesome deal for people who are interested in the game itself, looking to start a Blindwater Congregation force, or simply want minis for the Iron Kingdoms RPG, and I am excited to see how far this campaign goes. I would once again like to ask people to consider pledging and spreading the word of the campaign (I may sound like a broken record, but I don't work for Privateer Press, I just want as much value in the box as I can get )
**Update**
The Boss Small Tatzylwurm has been unlocked, bringing the total included in the deluxe box up to 90 miniatures:
Spoiler:
And we are already more than halfway to unlocking a group of six tomahawk gatormen:
Spoiler:
We are less than $60K from unlocking every currently revealed stretch goal, and Privateer Press has assured us there are more beyond that, so I once again urge everyone who is interested to pledge and spread the word.
The campaign has unlocked the next stretch goal, adding six tomahawk gatormen to each deluxe and higher pledge, and increasing the total number of minis to 96:
Spoiler:
The next stretch goal after that is a Boss Gatorman Bokor:
Spoiler:
Privateer Press has also conducted a Twitter poll and changed the upcoming stretch goal beyond that, switching two additional Gatorman Bokors for ten Blowgun Bog Trogs. These will be unlocked when the campaign reaches $325K, and will bring the deluxe pledge up to 107 miniatures for $140:
Spoiler:
Another stretch goal has also been announced for after the Swamp Horror is unlocked at $350K, which will be another pair of Bog Trog Mist Speakers at $362K.
Privateer Press has also announced that any funds that are added to the campaign in the pledge manager will also count towards unlocking stretch goals, adding more incentive for people who would like to pledge but don't have the full amount now.
I'm not a WarmaHordes player and haven't been following this KS, but I see some potentially nice enough gatorman figures and some other stuff. Are they allowing $1 pledges and a later upgrade to the full kaboodle in the pledge manager? I don't have the cash right now, and would like to see what the actual costs to ship to Australia are because the way their estimate is worded it seems that it'd be entirely inaccurate at this stage of the game.
Azazelx wrote: I'm not a WarmaHordes player and haven't been following this KS, but I see some potentially nice enough gatorman figures and some other stuff. Are they allowing $1 pledges and a later upgrade to the full kaboodle in the pledge manager? I don't have the cash right now, and would like to see what the actual costs to ship to Australia are because the way their estimate is worded it seems that it'd be entirely inaccurate at this stage of the game.
Privateer Press has said that yes, you will be able to pledge at the $1 level, or any level, and then increase your pledge in the Pledge Manager after the campaign is over. They have also said that they will count funds added in the Pledge Manager into the total for purposes of unlocking stretch goals, which is a nice touch and will hopefully lead to more unlocks. However, they have also stated that the Pledge Manager will not be open for a particularly long time. I believe they said it would be open until the end of April, but I do not recall exactly.
In other news, Privateer Press has posted a pair of videos to address people's concerns about the rigidity of the miniatures:
-The first one can be found here , and shows a painted Undercity miniature, the level of detail on it and how well the paint job survives being bent.
-The second one can be found here , and shows a prototype for the new Black River Irregulars expansion set which is coming out this year. This new plastic is more rigid, but will hold the same level of detail, and is the same plastic that will be used in the Widower's Wood miniatures.
I hope this puts some people's concerns about the quality of the miniatures to rest. The campaign is moving ahead by leaps and bounds, with us currently less than $1000 away from unlocking the Boss Gatorman Bokor and moving towards the 10 Blowgun Bog Trogs. If anyone would consider pledging or spreading awareness of the campaign in its last day, it would be appreciated.
Automatically Appended Next Post: **update**
The Boss Gatorman Bokor has been unlocked, raising the current model count for the deluxe pledge to 97 miniatures. The next stretch goal to be unlocked will be the Blowgun Bog Trogs, and a stretch goal for two additional Gatorman Bokors has been added at the $375K mark.
PP posted a video of their not-yet-released Undercity expansion figures, which show a much higher rigidity, that they say should be how the Widowers Wood figures have as well.
As a fair few people expressed concern because of the bendiness of the undercity models, this may be of interest
The campaign is in its last 7 hours now, and has passed the stretch goal to unlock 10 Blowgun Bog Trogs, which will be added to all deluxe and higher pledge levels, raising the total to 107 miniatures:
Spoiler:
The next stretch goal is another set of three Kickstarter exclusive bonus missions, and we are currently just over $7000 away from unlocking those. Beyond that is the Swamp Horror, two additional Bog Trog Mist Speakers, two additional Gatormen Bokors, and the newest addition, which is a second Deathless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: **Update**
We are in the last three hours of the campaign now and another three additional scenarios have been unlocked:
Spoiler:
We are now in the final push for the Swamp Horror miniature, which is a little more than $10K away. Although the odds may seem slim there is still a possibility it will be unlocked. If it is not unlocked now, it is very likely that it will be unlocked through increased pledges in the pledge manager after the campaign ends.
If anyone would like to get in on the campaign, or even is on the fence waiting to decide, now is the time to get in on it! Even pledging $1 now leaves you with the decision to increase your pledge later, and means you don't have to worry about missing out on all the great Kickstarter exclusives.
The Swamp Horror is unlocked! That brings the total to 108 miniatures, including one each of all the Blindwater heavy warbeasts so far!
There are still 15 minutes left in the campaign, so any last minute pledgers should head over there now!
Automatically Appended Next Post: **Update**
And with that the Kickstarter is over. The campaign finished with a pledge total of $353,943, and 108 miniatures unlocked for the deluxe pledge level. With any luck even more will be added as people increase pledges in the pledge manager.
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