So maybe it's because I've been out of the game for a while and the metas changed, but no one seems to bring termies to the table anymore and people rip them open online, wondering what's with the changes adittude towards the bulky marines?
They are poorly designed units. Nothing they do synergizes what any other element to the unit does.
They are points heavy. The reason behind that is terminators get a 2+/5++, gain relentless and deep strike, and have storm bolters and power fists.
The only one of these things that's a tangible benefit is the 2+/5++. Deep striking has it's usefulness, but space marines have plenty of other ways to deep strike units. Many of those units are significantly better in the turn they arrive from deep strike than Terminators are (Sternguard in general, Company Veterans for Dark Angels geared out with Combi-weapons, etc)
The Power Fists would be nice, but getting them in to close combat costs you 250 points by way of Land Raider, because a deep striking unit just gets shot off the table. Plus, they cannot sweeping advance. It's a unit with 25+ points worth of close combat related wargear that can't do the single most important function of close combat units, and due to how sweeping advance is worded, stop your other CC units from doing so. Awful design.
Storm Bolters are a joke of a weapon, especially for a deep striking, relentless unit. That means the only reason to even have relentless is if you bring an assault cannon or Cyclone Missiles. Assault Cannons are alright, but are kind of pricey for what they do. Cyclone Missiles are pretty good, but want to shoot at different targets than what storm bolters want to shoot at, typically. Dark Angels get to bring Plasma Cannons, which is nonsensical because you can't overwatch with blast weapons and if you deep strike, you're likely to get assaulted so you'd lose out on the primary benefit of your army (Grim Resolve granting BS2 overwatch).
They are simply too costly. 2+ isn't that much better than 3+ when you're talking shooting because AP values tend to be all-or-nothing in the shooting phase.
The single, only possible use of them is to go assault teams with Thunder Hammer/Storm Shields, and hunt down monstrous creatures, Gargantuan Creatures or Superheavies. Thing is, you are spending more points on 5 T4 wounds than the opponent is on 5 T6 or better wounds that probably has better shooting and better close combat abilities.
In 40k, specialization is the name of the game if you want your units to be effective. Terminators are 35 ppm and don't do any one thing extraordinarily well. You're better off using honor guard or something.
Traditio wrote: In 40k, specialization is the name of the game if you want your units to be effective. Terminators are 35 ppm and don't do any one thing extraordinarily well. You're better off using honor guard or something.
The same holds for tactical units. They are the master of none. Gw should have put more emphasize to the design.
Terminators are cool especially if they do have force weapons. I do field them regularly and enjoy it a lot, but I can only do this due to a lack off grav spam in my local meta.
I do play them in small squads moving them from line of sight blocking cover to line of sight blocking cover. You do not want them in line of sight with anything that has ap2 shooting attacks.
The whole sneaking around and insagibbing monsters is fun. Just never bring them to any game where you could face a grav biker list : P
Tactical Terminators are sucky because you have to pay for powerfists (which aren't cheap) no matter what, and you have to pay for storm bolters, which, as SRSFACE put it, suck. I mean, some factions' basic troops get better weapons for heaven's sake. There are also no really good special/heavy weapons. Like, assault cannons and heavy flamers are really inferior to stuff that tactical or devastator squads can take. Against grav, plasma, melta, even lascannons, they just are often not as useful. In a way, it's because Termies haven't gotten any better over the various editions.
In 40k, it's all about the ability to get there, and kill stuff, and sadly, Tactical Terminators are good at neither. They are a lot more tanky than regular PA marines, but so what? Everything that matters can crush them badly anyhow They also have no mean tricks, like move-shoot-move or rending, or anything really cool, and because their killing potential is pretty limited, it's not worthwhile to buff them with psychic powers and relics to get them to the point where they're really hard to kill.
I think the last time I liked terminators was a very long time ago, when they had cool cyclones with massive hit radii, at least for Frag
Really, you are better off spending the points on Centurions, which is kind of what Terminators should be. Or don't, and get tacticals, which at least can net you a free rhino or drop pod.
the biggest issue is that the game is currently silly aggressive, its why tyranids spam flying monstrous creatures and why bike armies or fast moving units like crisis suits have pretty much mothballed everything else in their codex that cant travel 18-24" in a single game turn. terminators require a slower game and marine both cannot slow a game down to let them be useful later in a game, or make them fast enough to deal with the aggression
in addition shooting has become absolutely ridiculous and terminators are a stabbing unit, if you cant assault from deepstrike, and ignore overwatch, and consolidate into combat nobody gives a flying feth about you or what weapons or kit you have unless you ahve a ridiculous baseline like 9 wounds at t6+ with deepstrike and strength d hammers of wrath (thats a really far out there example ut the point is you have to basically be broken as a cc unit or have a way to become broken).
terminators prices are also all out of whack with the current game because strength of weapons higher then 9 is becoming just common place. without trying to hard i can link about 5 items with strength D or 10 ranged weapons that are common place right now. its hard for them to exist in the current game
in addition gargantuans and superheavies are on the menu, terminators havent a prayer when it comes to being in an army that can make them work and handle threats like them
how would we change this?
1) no more gargantuans, or super heavies outside of apcoalypse, you dont like it too bad
2) bike units and jetbikes need a major price jack, and shooting centric specialists need to have some of their special rules packages and baselines either adjusted or be gutted. theyve grown out of control
3) you need to slow the game down, this will probably need to involve a reworking of the imbalance between shooting and melee (as noted in item 2) and a rebalancing of unit types where some unit types are objectively better then others because of their mechanics. such as jump infantry and jetpack infantry, jetbikes, cavalry, and bikes. formations that encourage shooting would also need to be re-examind ad well as CC patch job formations like the skyhammer annihilation force and shadowstrike killteam this is to make sure its not a totally worthless venture to buy shooting units. in some cases formations may simply be removed entirely.
option step 4) (as this mainly applies to terminator like units in other armies): you then need to go back and start fixing base armies and dropping supplemental things like formations and supplemental rules. in some cases armies could lose whole army supplements from legal use such as farsight enclave and clan raukkan, this would also include things like relics and warlord traits. for example anything granting eternal warriors would probably become very expensive, or any way to make a non troops base unit a troop such as bike marines in codex marines.
then and maybe then you will see terminators and middle men units like nobz, ogryn, wolf guard terminators, dreadnaughts, the gorkanaut/morkanaut, tyranid warriors/hive guard/genestealers that are just shoved out of the game by better units above them and below them come back on the level. and then wed need to run serious games testing to ensure that this balance is constantly in balance in the future
I've found Tactical Terminators slow, have low firepower and only access to one heavy weapon per five (which is rubbish).
Assault Terminators, bar not being able to sweeping advance, are still at least a silver standard for assault units with access to SS/TH or Dual LCs.
Grey Knight terminators are very versitile, with access to 5 (!) flavours of force weapon, better heavy weapons then vanilla termies (Psycannon and Incinerator ftw) and they're psykers, and only 33 ppm.
You do have to expect though, running Assault or GK Terminator flavours, you will be focused fired down before you get into combat. No one cares too much about tactical termies because, at range, they're rubbish, and are easily tarpitted.
Plus, if you want to be cheesy, take a GK Libby with Sanctic, roll for the power that gives +1 to your invul saves, put him in a unit of Iron Hands Assault terminators for a 2+/2++/6+++ fun times. You won't get anywhere fast, but damn you won't be killed.
Let's give some love to Chaos Terminators for a sec. They are overcosted, yeah, but it'll come down a bit when the next Chaos book finally comes out. In the meantime, the thing they've got over loyalist marines is the ability to bring Combi-weapons on every last dude in the squad.
If you could do that with Tactical Terminators, they'd be pretty solid especially in a Deathwing list. They'd at least have one really solid round of shooting and could be used as slightly more armored (but more expensive) Sternguard/Company Veterans.
Dark Angel Terminators any good? Can they still mix n match weapons?
Taking 10 and splitting them into combat squads (one with 2 heavy weapons, and a storm shield for tanking, the other loaded out for combat) could be an idea worth pursuing? Having 2 deployments might help the 'get shot off the table before they can do anything' problem?
nareik wrote: Dark Angel Terminators any good? Can they still mix n match weapons?
Taking 10 and splitting them into combat squads (one with 2 heavy weapons, and a storm shield for tanking, the other loaded out for combat) could be an idea worth pursuing? Having 2 deployments might help the 'get shot off the table before they can do anything' problem?
Any good? No. Mix and match weapons? Yes.
They don't have the Combat Squads special rule, else you could do what you suggested. Good thinking, but impossible.
It also doesn't solve the problem that close combat terminators are worthless without a land raider, because the vast majority of targets in today's meta they'd want to go after can get away from them.
I took a unit of Terminators once, was unlucky with my reserve roll for deepstriking them, arrived turn four, game was pretty much all over for me by then. Salt in the wounds, four out of the five got shot off the table, the last one never made close combat as everything moved away from it.
Won't take them again.
SRSFACE wrote: You know, we're all talking loyalist terminators.
Let's give some love to Chaos Terminators for a sec. They are overcosted, yeah, but it'll come down a bit when the next Chaos book finally comes out. In the meantime, the thing they've got over loyalist marines is the ability to bring Combi-weapons on every last dude in the squad.
If you could do that with Tactical Terminators, they'd be pretty solid especially in a Deathwing list. They'd at least have one really solid round of shooting and could be used as slightly more armored (but more expensive) Sternguard/Company Veterans.
theyd still be overcosted, 5 veterans + drop pod is 125, 5 combat shields is 25, and 5 combi weapons is 50. so for 50 points less you get a unit that has the same baseline and could live just as long. the only downside is there cc is inferior but nobody bothers with cc anyway on anybody unless your a skyhammer, on a bike/cavalry, or a shadowstrike killteam. the solution isnt to "make them shoot better" its to make them more useful and no amount of statline fixes or points adjustments, or upgrade tweaks will fix them unless they can just buy assault from deepstrike at the cost of their ranged weapon. if that was an upgrade terminators could acquire they would become a lot better
also id like to see deathwing knights get a buff in their baseline they need something, maybe +1 attack in either smite or normal mode
SRSFACE wrote: Let's give some love to Chaos Terminators for a sec. They are overcosted, yeah, but it'll come down a bit when the next Chaos book finally comes out. In the meantime, the thing they've got over loyalist marines is the ability to bring Combi-weapons on every last dude in the squad.
And the ability to take smaller squads. With a slightly lower cost per model anyway, deep striking in three combi-weapons is not too bad a use of points, and if they survive the experience they can still break face better than most throw-away suicide units (but are more expensive, obviously).
In Horus Heresy games, Legion Terminators are not bad. Enemies have a lot less access to, or at least tend to pay proportionally more for, massed AP2 weapons, and Cataphractii-pattern armour packs a 4++ save, rather than 5++, whilst Tartaros-pattern does let you sweeping advance (making it nice for assault units). Plus, given that scoring units are much more restricted, Implacable Advance (which makes you scoring) is very nice.
Yeah I think it's summed up by the phrase Jack of all trades, master of none.
I love terminators, I love the look, I love the look, and they scare the hell out of me on the table for some godforsaken reason.
I think it's easy to just say they suck, they don't suck, they are still a meaty threatening unit that are hard to kill unless you have the right tools to do so.
But..
The criticisms levelled at them in this thread are all valid. But I don't think, as one poster put it up thread, that the whole game needs to change to make them work. That's frankly ridiculous.
Basically, terminators need a big points reduction, coupled with a buff for the humble Storm bolter. Also give them access to special issue ammunition, and suddenly it's a whole different ball game.
Make the storm bolter salvo 2/4 or even 2/6 and cost 10-15 points, and on a relentless platform where they get it base, it becomes a beast of a weapon, with all sorts of fun ammo options.
Yet on an ordinary mook it's still pretty average.
General Kroll wrote: Basically, terminators need a big points reduction, coupled with a buff for the humble Storm bolter. Also give them access to special issue ammunition, and suddenly it's a whole different ball game.
Or, alternatively, give them a 2+/3++ standard so they can actually live through the AP race that is currently happening - They have an armor the size of a house, for goodness sake. Let's give them a save that reflects that.
General Kroll wrote: Basically, terminators need a big points reduction, coupled with a buff for the humble Storm bolter. Also give them access to special issue ammunition, and suddenly it's a whole different ball game.
Or, alternatively, give them a 2+/3++ standard so they can actually live through the AP race that is currently happening - They have an armor the size of a house, for goodness sake. Let's give them a save that reflects that.
Yeah give them that too, Terminators should be badass. I guess one of the main problems too is that they span maybe five or six different codices. You update one of them to be badass and everyone else throws a tantrum.
I play Deathwing, and have observed that specific problem with Terminators can be summed up basically as:
-They don't throw enough dice. 2+ save is great when your dice is hot but one poor roll and major part of your firepower is gone. Their ranged fire is poor by modern standards, nowadays Rapid Fire doesn't suffer from movement so Storm Bolters aren't so great anymore. Also, cost of basic troops for has gone down signifantly over last two editions, Terminators still cost the same. So they simply can't compete in points effectiveness anymore. Even with Deathwing assault which lets you reroll dice seldom does any signifant damage.
In close combat, they do not have enough attacks and are easily overwhelmed. They have 2 attacks at WS 4. Almost everything in the game is WS 4 so Termies get on average 1 hit. If you have a Power sword it is S4 and almost everyone in the game is T4. So your Terminator Sergeant can be expected to make 0.5 Wounds per assault phase. Not so great from 40pts model!
Power fists and hammers hit at I1 and at that point you have usually lost 2-3 Terminators already. So you get maybe 4 to 6 attacks at WS4. Granted they usually wound at 2+ but roll poorly, and you kill maybe 1 enemy figure. Even if you roll really well, you kill maybe 4-5 enemies. And next turn remaining 20 Ork Boyz wipe you off.
In my opinion, problem with both Tactical Marines and Terminators stem from the fact that they're meant to be 'elite' but all of their opponents get similar stats for cheaper. When your 200 point unit throws 10 attacks each of which has 50% chance of hitting, it's not so great value for points. It would help a little if WS4 wasn't so damn common. Ork Boyz and Necrons Warriors at least should be WS3. Terminators probably should be T5 and/or fire Overwatch on full BS. Also they should treat Storm Bolters as CC weapons, that would at least make Power Weapons bit more meaningful for Termies.
Lets not even go to things like Grav Weapons and various Plasma monstrosities which exist in todays game.
SRSFACE wrote: The only one of these things that's a tangible benefit is the 2+/5++. Deep striking has it's usefulness, but space marines have plenty of other ways to deep strike units. Many of those units are significantly better in the turn they arrive from deep strike than Terminators are (Sternguard in general, Company Veterans for Dark Angels geared out with Combi-weapons, etc)
That is true in SM, but CSM is different thing. You can take combis to all (example termicide) and deepstriking is valuable when CSM have not drop pods.
3++ is nonsense. If a gun can one shot a landraider it sure should murder a marine even if he wears the best armour in the imperium.
Its the availability of AP2 weapons that need to change. Make grav anti multi wound weapons instead of anti terminator weapons and tone down the spamability of all those rending and ap2 guns.
The alternative is buffing walkers, tanks, and terminators ; )
SRSFACE wrote: You know, we're all talking loyalist terminators.
Let's give some love to Chaos Terminators for a sec. They are overcosted, yeah, but it'll come down a bit when the next Chaos book finally comes out. In the meantime, the thing they've got over loyalist marines is the ability to bring Combi-weapons on every last dude in the squad.
If you could do that with Tactical Terminators, they'd be pretty solid especially in a Deathwing list. They'd at least have one really solid round of shooting and could be used as slightly more armored (but more expensive) Sternguard/Company Veterans.
theyd still be overcosted, 5 veterans + drop pod is 125, 5 combat shields is 25, and 5 combi weapons is 50. so for 50 points less you get a unit that has the same baseline and could live just as long. the only downside is there cc is inferior but nobody bothers with cc anyway on anybody unless your a skyhammer, on a bike/cavalry, or a shadowstrike killteam. the solution isnt to "make them shoot better" its to make them more useful and no amount of statline fixes or points adjustments, or upgrade tweaks will fix them unless they can just buy assault from deepstrike at the cost of their ranged weapon. if that was an upgrade terminators could acquire they would become a lot better
also id like to see deathwing knights get a buff in their baseline they need something, maybe +1 attack in either smite or normal mode
Let's actually parse this out.
Before doing so, let's also agree combi-weapon upgrades for terminators would only be 5 points instead of 10. Reason being that's what it is for terminator HQs replacing their stormbolter, so it stands to reason that'd be passed down to tacticals.
A 5 man team of Sternguard fully equipped with combi-whatever, and a drop pod for deep striking them, is 195 points. This tactical terminator team with an assault cannon and 4 combi-weapons would be 215 points. We're only 20 points difference away, and I have to tell you that's awfully tempting. You'd be giving special issue ammo (and a storm bolter by way of drop pod I guess) for a 2+/5++ and 4 powerfists and a powersword.
Does this not look tempting? That looks mighty fine to me. A lot of people already run that 5 man sternguard blob and feel like it's worth it even though they get shot off the table immediately after, because it's hard to argue with a boatload of melta/plasma on demand, where you need it, turn 1.
Then you gotta factor formations into this. 1st Company Taskforce has preferred enemy against whatever priority target you want to nuke. Having an additional combi-melta team deep striking alongside the podded Sternguard would be really awesome. If you look at Strike Force Ultra? Holy gak it'd make the entire thing worth doing because you'd just blow your combi-weapon load on the turn you'd gain an extra shot. That'd be amazing with some combi-meltas.
Let's talk Dark Angels for a sec, simply because we can. The pod veterans team is significantly cheaper than the Sternguard team as it just comes in at 175 points. The Deathwing terminators would come in at 240 points (again, assuming we bring an assault cannon.) It's a much bigger discrepancy but even before getting into Formations, keep in mind you're twin-linked the turn you arrive from Deep Strike so your blowing your combi-use is significantly more reliable. The Veteran team is still probably better in this case, but there's at least a reason you might wanna go with a Deathwing team instead.
...Seriously, guys, I think I figured it out. All terminators really need is combi-weapons as an option for any model in the squad. It really would solve a lot of their poor shooting issues. All you REALLY need is one turn to shoot with them, because turn 2 they want to get in close combat anyway, so from a unit design standpoint it's a lot better. Take away the sweeping advance restriction and you're there. It'd be a unit worth taking again.
That is true in SM, but CSM is different thing. You can take combis to all (example termicide) and deepstriking is valuable when CSM have not drop pods.
Already covered you, boss. I actually gave some CSM terminators love earlier. It's also the only way to get a 2+ armor save on an HQ unit for them, and the fact it confers an invulnerable save matters to them because they don't get one default.
SRSFACE wrote: You know, we're all talking loyalist terminators.
Let's give some love to Chaos Terminators for a sec. They are overcosted, yeah, but it'll come down a bit when the next Chaos book finally comes out. In the meantime, the thing they've got over loyalist marines is the ability to bring Combi-weapons on every last dude in the squad.
If you could do that with Tactical Terminators, they'd be pretty solid especially in a Deathwing list. They'd at least have one really solid round of shooting and could be used as slightly more armored (but more expensive) Sternguard/Company Veterans.
theyd still be overcosted, 5 veterans + drop pod is 125, 5 combat shields is 25, and 5 combi weapons is 50. so for 50 points less you get a unit that has the same baseline and could live just as long. the only downside is there cc is inferior but nobody bothers with cc anyway on anybody unless your a skyhammer, on a bike/cavalry, or a shadowstrike killteam. the solution isnt to "make them shoot better" its to make them more useful and no amount of statline fixes or points adjustments, or upgrade tweaks will fix them unless they can just buy assault from deepstrike at the cost of their ranged weapon. if that was an upgrade terminators could acquire they would become a lot better
also id like to see deathwing knights get a buff in their baseline they need something, maybe +1 attack in either smite or normal mode
Let's actually parse this out.
Before doing so, let's also agree combi-weapon upgrades for terminators would only be 5 points instead of 10. Reason being that's what it is for terminator HQs replacing their stormbolter, so it stands to reason that'd be passed down to tacticals.
A 5 man team of Sternguard fully equipped with combi-whatever, and a drop pod for deep striking them, is 195 points. This tactical terminator team with an assault cannon and 4 combi-weapons would be 215 points. We're only 20 points difference away, and I have to tell you that's awfully tempting. You'd be giving special issue ammo (and a storm bolter by way of drop pod I guess) for a 2+/5++ and 4 powerfists and a powersword.
Does this not look tempting? That looks mighty fine to me. A lot of people already run that 5 man sternguard blob and feel like it's worth it even though they get shot off the table immediately after, because it's hard to argue with a boatload of melta/plasma on demand, where you need it, turn 1.
Then you gotta factor formations into this. 1st Company Taskforce has preferred enemy against whatever priority target you want to nuke. Having an additional combi-melta team deep striking alongside the podded Sternguard would be really awesome. If you look at Strike Force Ultra? Holy gak it'd make the entire thing worth doing because you'd just blow your combi-weapon load on the turn you'd gain an extra shot. That'd be amazing with some combi-meltas.
Let's talk Dark Angels for a sec, simply because we can. The pod veterans team is significantly cheaper than the Sternguard team as it just comes in at 175 points. The Deathwing terminators would come in at 240 points (again, assuming we bring an assault cannon.) It's a much bigger discrepancy but even before getting into Formations, keep in mind you're twin-linked the turn you arrive from Deep Strike so your blowing your combi-use is significantly more reliable. The Veteran team is still probably better in this case, but there's at least a reason you might wanna go with a Deathwing team instead.
...Seriously, guys, I think I figured it out. All terminators really need is combi-weapons as an option for any model in the squad. It really would solve a lot of their poor shooting issues. All you REALLY need is one turn to shoot with them, because turn 2 they want to get in close combat anyway, so from a unit design standpoint it's a lot better. Take away the sweeping advance restriction and you're there. It'd be a unit worth taking again.
That is true in SM, but CSM is different thing. You can take combis to all (example termicide) and deepstriking is valuable when CSM have not drop pods.
Already covered you, boss. I actually gave some CSM terminators love earlier. It's also the only way to get a 2+ armor save on an HQ unit for them, and the fact it confers an invulnerable save matters to them because they don't get one default.
I actually do play chaos so that may have been a bit of my problem, seeing as how our terminators can actually be pretty useful at times, if a little impractical at others, but they've definently been the deciding factor in a few of my games, because when they work, they work great.
It's ROF. Too many units have access to too many dice worth of shots. Eldar scatter lasers, Tau firepower in general, Necron gauss weaponry (I'm thinking Ghost Arks, which have insane output), etc etc.
You drown the unit in wounds and each '1' you roll is a big points loss.
They should get a re-rollable 2+/3++ save. Make them damn hard to kill. Fluff - TDA is supposed to be used in reactor cores... it's tougher than a Land Raider's testicles
1) no more gargantuans, or super heavies outside of apcoalypse, you dont like it too bad
Superheavys and gargantuan creatures are probably gunna be here to stay. You don't like it too bad.
At this rate it's going to be too bad for those who do like superheavies because they aren't really doing any favours to the game. 40K being at the point where basic terminators and tactical squads are bad means it's in need of a serious overhaul.
zerosignal wrote:The problem is not high AP weaponry. It's ROF. Too many units have access to too many dice worth of shots. Eldar scatter lasers, Tau firepower in general, Necron gauss weaponry (I'm thinking Ghost Arks, which have insane output), etc etc.
You drown the unit in wounds and each '1' you roll is a big points loss.
hobojebus wrote:Too much easy access to ap2 weapons since 6th killed off terminators 50 points for something that dies as easy as a 15 point guy makes no sense.
The real problem is that it’s both You have an expensive elite unit that be be taken down with either massed small arms, or a few AP2 hits. The only thing it’s really good at is stopping low volume, better-then-average-but-not-the-best shots. Like one or two autocannons (but not more) or a handful of krack missiles. But once you have fire that can do more then half a dozen wounds to T4 models, or any amount of AP2 hits, they just start to evaporate. And for something that supposed to be the best armor in the universe, that’s kinda sad.
The slow erosion of the stormbolter does not help either. They used to be a good way to project fire on the move. Now everyone can do that.
1) no more gargantuans, or super heavies outside of apcoalypse, you dont like it too bad
Superheavys and gargantuan creatures are probably gunna be here to stay. You don't like it too bad.
While I agree they are going to be part of standard rules from now until the end of eternity, this kind of thinking needs to end.
It's a game. It should be enjoyable for both sides. Because I currently do not have a list that can even reasonably fight Tau, the people I know who have Tau armies and I never play and are still good friends. The thing about this hobby is that there's actual people actually involved, and it's never as bad in person as people make it out to be online. Ever.
If Superheavies and Gargantuan creatures are too difficult for your list to handle, talk to your opponent and decide on a game list you will both enjoy. If the person refuses to play you outright, rather than get mad and accuse the person of being a win at all cost guy, realize that person owns a really cool and powerful model so of course they want to play with it, and part ways with no hurt feelings.
General Kroll wrote: Yeah I think it's summed up by the phrase Jack of all trades, master of none.
I love terminators, I love the look, I love the look, and they scare the hell out of me on the table for some godforsaken reason.
I think it's easy to just say they suck, they don't suck, they are still a meaty threatening unit that are hard to kill unless you have the right tools to do so.
But..
The criticisms levelled at them in this thread are all valid. But I don't think, as one poster put it up thread, that the whole game needs to change to make them work. That's frankly ridiculous.
Basically, terminators need a big points reduction, coupled with a buff for the humble Storm bolter. Also give them access to special issue ammunition, and suddenly it's a whole different ball game.
Make the storm bolter salvo 2/4 or even 2/6 and cost 10-15 points, and on a relentless platform where they get it base, it becomes a beast of a weapon, with all sorts of fun ammo options.
Yet on an ordinary mook it's still pretty average.
Go play some Eldar. You won't be scared of terminators after that. 2+ armor is basically gak now in the game.
1) no more gargantuans, or super heavies outside of apcoalypse, you dont like it too bad
Superheavys and gargantuan creatures are probably gunna be here to stay. You don't like it too bad.
At this rate it's going to be too bad for those who do like superheavies because they aren't really doing any favours to the game. 40K being at the point where basic terminators and tactical squads are bad means it's in need of a serious overhaul.
These units have always been bad, though. Their concept just doesn't work in a game where people can customize and specialize. Even when terminators were 3+ on two dice, the loyalist terminators SUCKED.
In order for terminators to be worth their points one of two things need to happen to them, neither of which should increase their already high points cost.
One: Their base Toughness is increased to 5.
OR
Two: They be give a second wound per model (making them W:2 models)
In my view, doing one OR the other would get them closer to being worth their points. I personally favor making them T:5 models but there are merits to the additional wound instead.
You do that, and it makes them a bit more viable and worth their fairly high points per model cost.
Make Storm Bolters S5 (I'm the most vocal supporter of this change in the forum I believe), make the TH/SS upgrade just 5 points again, allow a minimum unit of Tactical Terminators to take two heavy weapons, and give Assault Terminators...I dunno, something else too.
Bam, Terminators are at least maybe mediocre somewhat.
You could make stormbolters shred as well. Two heavy weapons would help, even though those choices are rather weak, imo. Assault cannons need to be massed like scatterlasers to be effective, and the Imperium just can't do that because reasons.
Two wounds/ model; special issue ammo and two heavy weapons per 5 tactical terminators. I'd be alright with taking them back to 40/model if they came stock with 5+ fnp as well.
Aaaaaand I stopped comparing Codex to codex a while back, why? because why bother? Or an even better question Why are you comparing Terminators to Terminators when you should be comparing them to the entirety of the Eldar Codex?
/Thread, because these threads always end up escalating to comparing to Netlists X, Y and Z.
What you should be asking is the following points:
1) Does it have a role to play in your army? Yes. it butchers entire units in combat with little to no resistance.
2) Will it be ok in your area? Yes my terminators have been known to break the backs of units and has a maliciously good rep of sucess.
Done. Tested and approved. People can complain all they like on the forums but thats regressive and unproductive, we have been given the hand and it's utter but we have made our statements and if people were to ask what went wrong with GW if it were ever to burn down so to say, then we can point them to the reams of these threads but atm on the table how good is a complaint post on the board?
I refuse to shelve my CSM.
I refuse to abandon units to the isles of Ebay if I like 'em.
I set myself to be the underdog in this age of a bad CSM codex as I realize its the hand I've been dealt.
And you know what? I got good with them. How did I get good? because I stopped paying attention to what others had and what I didn't and I started paying attention to what I had and what what commonly seen in only my area. True it cost my my liver, right arm and the entirety of the 27th future generation with bits from FW here and there but by the Warp I got there.
Now I'm looking at Orks and what I can do with them with my current collection and I'm eyeing up Tyranids to see what possibilities I can draw up in my area.
Not saying GW are perfect by a long shot but times are good for me, but I think people need to look at what they can do in their area rather than just, and usually only complain on threads about how traitors aren't as loyalists. Yes they are, so what are you going to do about it? I'm going to continue to wage bitter war on the table instead of shelving them as you hear most people do on forums.
You compare Terminators to Terminators because they're based around the same kinda unit, you walnut.
A Loyalist version of what you're doing would be superior in every manner. You'd have better access to mobility (more Land Raider variants, Storm Ravens for those with a death wish, Teleport Homers), have access to formations (which means not taking up an Elite slot), and then access to Chapter Tactics as you feel like.
The only manner a CSM Terminator ends up better is when you take 3-4 of them with Combi-Melta or Plasma and give them Axes.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You compare Terminators to Terminators because they're based around the same kinda unit, you walnut.
A Loyalist version of what you're doing would be superior in every manner. You'd have better access to mobility (more Land Raider variants, Storm Ravens for those with a death wish, Teleport Homers), have access to formations (which means not taking up an Elite slot), and then access to Chapter Tactics as you feel like.
The only manner a CSM Terminator ends up better is when you take 3-4 of them with Combi-Melta or Plasma and give them Axes.
Except these threads usually end up comparing Terminators to likes likes of Eldar and Co. in hope of explaining why Terminators are bad and then ends up developing and becoming a thread about how/why Eldar are so good. Its happened before and will continue to happen.
Throwing AP 3 claws at AP 2 Hammernators (or any terminators tbh) always ends up badly, hence why no one does it, leading me back to my first question. Does it have a role in your force? Yup. Throwing it at a unit that it won't end up killing and at best locking it up in combat never ends well, but it does one hell of a job of clearing up objectives where troops are. Usually the tipping point as people forget that this isn't just an all-out killing game and has levels and scopes of depth because the usual game is Maelstrom games and therefore objective-based, so storming that objective that your opponent thought was safe ends up wining a game. Suddenly that unit just got very good because comparing points is nothing compared to a victory within a game.
And the Loyalist version is still doing that better, yet those still aren't taken.
You type a lot just to try and say "Git gud L2P". If a unit is mathematically bad in the first place, what makes you think the inferior version is worth even talking about?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: And the Loyalist version is still doing that better, yet those still aren't taken.
You type a lot just to try and say "Git gud L2P". If a unit is mathematically bad in the first place, what makes you think the inferior version is worth even talking about?
Because Math is not the game.
Math is an aspect that we use to simulate the game.
Forums are just too comfortable with averages and what they see in the top tiers in ITC's and LVO's to use as ammo to fuel fire, and whilst I agree I do partake in this at times I have my own fuel more fired up by my own experiences than what happened in some distant tourney in restrictions my own area does not use atm. If anyone plays the game then they know as well as I do that the dice will always surprise you and that averages are a lot less seen than to be believed.
Again, this has already been debated why Terminators are viewed as bad for the past two pages, then usually these threads end up developing to comparing to gold-plated hand grenades. We know those marines inside that marine Armour are better than Terminators but that does not mean that Terminators are outright bad, to which is why I disagree because this is an open forum and not some sort of Stalin-esque FB page where you must only be positive about GW or 40k. I disagree that Terminators are outright bad because you can do so much with them when you include the levels of scope that this game actually requires than just outright kill 'em all averages that the internet is too comfortable with these days.
thepowerfulwill wrote: So maybe it's because I've been out of the game for a while and the metas changed, but no one seems to bring termies to the table anymore and people rip them open online, wondering what's with the changes adittude towards the bulky marines?
It's not a "change in attitude". Terminators have generally been considered crap for at least 2-3 editions now.
They're WAY overpriced, they're WAY too squishy, and they're WAY too penalized for being what they are.
Terminators need the following things to compete with the Centurion(aka "Terminator Plus"):
2W on base models, 3 on Vet. Sergeants
T5
Re-rolls on armor saves against anything AP4 or higher.
Storm Bolters need to be given Special Issue Ammunition and turned into a minimum of 4-5 shots
2 Heavy Weapons per 5 Marines rather than 10.
Options for Combi-Weapons on all models rather than just Vet. Sergeants
Yeah if they gift those sorts of stats I'll be looking forward to my Mega Nobz getting W3 (W4 on Boss Nobz), T5, twin-linked rokkit launchas, re-rolling AP4 or worse for no price increase
xlDuke wrote: Yeah if they gift those sorts of stats I'll be looking forward to my Mega Nobz getting W3 (W4 on Boss Nobz), T5, twin-linked rokkit launchas, re-rolling AP4 or worse for no price increase
When Mega Nobz are wearing more than just scraps of armor plating, we'll talk.
thepowerfulwill wrote: So maybe it's because I've been out of the game for a while and the metas changed, but no one seems to bring termies to the table anymore and people rip them open online, wondering what's with the changes adittude towards the bulky marines?
It's not a "change in attitude". Terminators have generally been considered crap for at least 2-3 editions now.
They're WAY overpriced, they're WAY too squishy, and they're WAY too penalized for being what they are.
Terminators need the following things to compete with the Centurion(aka "Terminator Plus"):
2W on base models, 3 on Vet. Sergeants
T5
Re-rolls on armor saves against anything AP4 or higher.
Storm Bolters need to be given Special Issue Ammunition and turned into a minimum of 4-5 shots
2 Heavy Weapons per 5 Marines rather than 10.
Options for Combi-Weapons on all models rather than just Vet. Sergeants
Congrats, now terminator cost at least 70 points. For 35/model, T5, 2W special issue ammo.and two special weapons per 5 models is enough. Maybe give em 5+ FNP if you want them on par with current power creep, but they don't need everything and the kitchen sink to be worth the price of a tyranid warrior...
xlDuke wrote: Yeah if they gift those sorts of stats I'll be looking forward to my Mega Nobz getting W3 (W4 on Boss Nobz), T5, twin-linked rokkit launchas, re-rolling AP4 or worse for no price increase
When Mega Nobz are wearing more than just scraps of armor plating, we'll talk.
It's not 'eavy armour, it's mega armour and it's the best personal armour a mek can build. Not quite so clever as tactical dreadnaught armour, but that's represented by a lack of invulnerable save and deep strike ability and it still costs as much as an assault terminator. I was highlighting the fact that there isn't anything inherently wrong with Terminators and their equivalents (except being overpriced) and that it would be a bit unfair to buff Space Marine Terminators and not think about the effect it has on similar units.
xlDuke wrote: Yeah if they gift those sorts of stats I'll be looking forward to my Mega Nobz getting W3 (W4 on Boss Nobz), T5, twin-linked rokkit launchas, re-rolling AP4 or worse for no price increase
When Mega Nobz are wearing more than just scraps of armor plating, we'll talk.
It's not 'eavy armour, it's mega armour and it's the best personal armour a mek can build. Not quite so clever as tactical dreadnaught armour, but that's represented by a lack of invulnerable save and deep strike ability and it still costs as much as an assault terminator. I was highlighting the fact that there isn't anything inherently wrong with Terminators and their equivalents (except being overpriced) and that it would be a bit unfair to buff Space Marine Terminators and not think about the effect it has on similar units.
Our previous codex ( you know the 4th edition one ) allowed them to buy a 5++ for 5 pnts :\
but there is so much more wrong with those MANZ.
-They cant have any other close combat weapon aside from a chain fist and they don't have cool shooting weapon options aside from a crappy version of a combi weapon. The kit even comes with a cool Telleporta weapon that none of them can use :\ -They are LD 7! -They are slow and P. -Yes they are W2 but almost all ap2 weapons are at least S8.
Most players consider them one of the best units in the ork codex, but this tells us more about the codex then about MANZ
xlDuke wrote: Yeah if they gift those sorts of stats I'll be looking forward to my Mega Nobz getting W3 (W4 on Boss Nobz), T5, twin-linked rokkit launchas, re-rolling AP4 or worse for no price increase
When Mega Nobz are wearing more than just scraps of armor plating, we'll talk.
It's not 'eavy armour, it's mega armour and it's the best personal armour a mek can build. Not quite so clever as tactical dreadnaught armour, but that's represented by a lack of invulnerable save and deep strike ability and it still costs as much as an assault terminator. I was highlighting the fact that there isn't anything inherently wrong with Terminators and their equivalents (except being overpriced) and that it would be a bit unfair to buff Space Marine Terminators and not think about the effect it has on similar units.
Take a look at the actual Mega Nobz models. There's large chunks of exposed flesh.
Also, you can't just throw out the whole "My Mega Nobz need to be buffed too" when compared to C: SM or C: DA or C: BA Terminators.
Mega Nobz are minimum unit sizes of 3, come with grenades, and have a few other goodies that boost up their usefulness.
All the Terminators I mentioned are minimum unit sizes of 5, have no grenades, and really are just in the Codex because they've been there forever.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: And the Loyalist version is still doing that better, yet those still aren't taken.
You type a lot just to try and say "Git gud L2P". If a unit is mathematically bad in the first place, what makes you think the inferior version is worth even talking about?
Because Math is not the game.
Math is an aspect that we use to simulate the game.
Forums are just too comfortable with averages and what they see in the top tiers in ITC's and LVO's to use as ammo to fuel fire, and whilst I agree I do partake in this at times I have my own fuel more fired up by my own experiences than what happened in some distant tourney in restrictions my own area does not use atm. If anyone plays the game then they know as well as I do that the dice will always surprise you and that averages are a lot less seen than to be believed.
Again, this has already been debated why Terminators are viewed as bad for the past two pages, then usually these threads end up developing to comparing to gold-plated hand grenades. We know those marines inside that marine Armour are better than Terminators but that does not mean that Terminators are outright bad, to which is why I disagree because this is an open forum and not some sort of Stalin-esque FB page where you must only be positive about GW or 40k. I disagree that Terminators are outright bad because you can do so much with them when you include the levels of scope that this game actually requires than just outright kill 'em all averages that the internet is too comfortable with these days.
You're using "L2P" as a crutch.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Look at it like this:
Loyalist Assault Terminators at base are 175. With the same loadout and with MoS your Chaos ones are nearing 40 a pop. The only thing you're doing better is charging T4 3+ outside of cover for the points. THEN you look at the benefits Loyalists get, and then you realize how silly your statement sounds.
xlDuke wrote: Yeah if they gift those sorts of stats I'll be looking forward to my Mega Nobz getting W3 (W4 on Boss Nobz), T5, twin-linked rokkit launchas, re-rolling AP4 or worse for no price increase
When Mega Nobz are wearing more than just scraps of armor plating, we'll talk.
It's not 'eavy armour, it's mega armour and it's the best personal armour a mek can build. Not quite so clever as tactical dreadnaught armour, but that's represented by a lack of invulnerable save and deep strike ability and it still costs as much as an assault terminator. I was highlighting the fact that there isn't anything inherently wrong with Terminators and their equivalents (except being overpriced) and that it would be a bit unfair to buff Space Marine Terminators and not think about the effect it has on similar units.
Take a look at the actual Mega Nobz models. There's large chunks of exposed flesh.
Also, you can't just throw out the whole "My Mega Nobz need to be buffed too" when compared to C: SM or C: DA or C: BA Terminators.
Mega Nobz are minimum unit sizes of 3, come with grenades, and have a few other goodies that boost up their usefulness.
All the Terminators I mentioned are minimum unit sizes of 5, have no grenades, and really are just in the Codex because they've been there forever.
There is indeed parts of the Ork that are shown beneath the armour and that's probably what the 1-in-6 chance of failure represents with the 2+ save, similar to the 'hit in the joints or gorget' that is often the fluff explanation of terminator armour failing. They come with grenades but can only equip unwieldy power klaws so it doesn't matter, and I'm not sure what other goodies you mean if you're talking about wargear. Mega Nobz were my example but not my point, if Terminators get a buff then other chapters, CSM and Ork versions should as well along with any other armies that have something similar.
No one here is talking about changes to minimum unit size or adding grenades to their wargear, both of which are great and down-to-earth ideas to improve them especially alongside a points reduction and extra heavy/special weapons. We've already got into buffing them with stats that would make most HQ's envious which in my opinion isn't necessary.
Look at it like this:
Loyalist Assault Terminators at base are 175. With the same loadout and with MoS your Chaos ones are nearing 40 a pop. The only thing you're doing better is charging T4 3+ outside of cover for the points. THEN you look at the benefits Loyalists get, and then you realize how silly your statement sounds.
C'mon dude, can't you see what he is saying? Internal balance=/=external balance, Chaos don't have the same options as Loyalists hence units are priced differently based on the role they play within an army. You shouldn't compare unit to unit between codexes without looking extensively at the rest of the list. Chaos have little access to 2+ Sv's, making the 2+ svs they DO get a little more expensive, probably not what they deserve but you can understand the logic behind the decision. Chaos Terminators also start off cheaper than Loyalists therefore pay more to be upgraded to a similar level. It's the same concept behind Fantasy's Tomb Guard vs Grave Guard, very similar units but Tomb Guard are more expensive because the TK army syngerised better with them.
Also MoS terminators are better then loyalist terminators if both have Lightning Claws against I4 opponents, which is statistically a large category. So there is that.
I think the issue with termies is that they don't do anything well, their not hard to kill with shooting, they don't represent a serious threat in close combat and they've no way of getting there! In the fluff they teleport in then wreck/get wrecked but that isn't what they do on the table instead they give up cheap VPs. What I'd like to see to be more in keeping with what their like in the fluff is either re-roll armour saves (their armour is supposed to be incredible) or allow them to assault from deep strike. People would say i
that is OP but then people always like to bitch about better rules! I'm even saying this as a guy who wouldn't run them even with those rules
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: And the Loyalist version is still doing that better, yet those still aren't taken.
You type a lot just to try and say "Git gud L2P". If a unit is mathematically bad in the first place, what makes you think the inferior version is worth even talking about?
Because Math is not the game.
Math is an aspect that we use to simulate the game.
Forums are just too comfortable with averages and what they see in the top tiers in ITC's and LVO's to use as ammo to fuel fire, and whilst I agree I do partake in this at times I have my own fuel more fired up by my own experiences than what happened in some distant tourney in restrictions my own area does not use atm. If anyone plays the game then they know as well as I do that the dice will always surprise you and that averages are a lot less seen than to be believed.
Again, this has already been debated why Terminators are viewed as bad for the past two pages, then usually these threads end up developing to comparing to gold-plated hand grenades. We know those marines inside that marine Armour are better than Terminators but that does not mean that Terminators are outright bad, to which is why I disagree because this is an open forum and not some sort of Stalin-esque FB page where you must only be positive about GW or 40k. I disagree that Terminators are outright bad because you can do so much with them when you include the levels of scope that this game actually requires than just outright kill 'em all averages that the internet is too comfortable with these days.
You're using "L2P" as a crutch.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Look at it like this:
Loyalist Assault Terminators at base are 175. With the same loadout and with MoS your Chaos ones are nearing 40 a pop. The only thing you're doing better is charging T4 3+ outside of cover for the points. THEN you look at the benefits Loyalists get, and then you realize how silly your statement sounds.
Chaos Terminator w/Mark of Slaanesh + paired Lightning claws = 42pts a pop. (Champion = 57! pts as he must buy his Lightning claws from the armoury at a huge mark-up!!)
For a unit of 5 you're spending 234pts, while Loyalists only spend 175pts for the exact same unit, bar the I5 that the MoS confers.
However, Loyalists get better delivery systems, either through the variant Land Raiders or accurate Deep Strike. And can also give the unit far better buffs with various IC's such as a Termie Chaplain.
For CSM's to gain the benefit of an attached IC, we end up being forced to take only 4 Terminators, since we lack proper transport capacity in our sole Land Raider option. As well as the fact that our Chaplain variant has 0 access to a 2+ save.
Look at it like this:
Loyalist Assault Terminators at base are 175. With the same loadout and with MoS your Chaos ones are nearing 40 a pop. The only thing you're doing better is charging T4 3+ outside of cover for the points. THEN you look at the benefits Loyalists get, and then you realize how silly your statement sounds.
C'mon dude, can't you see what he is saying? Internal balance=/=external balance, Chaos don't have the same options as Loyalists hence units are priced differently based on the role they play within an army. You shouldn't compare unit to unit between codexes without looking extensively at the rest of the list. Chaos have little access to 2+ Sv's, making the 2+ svs they DO get a little more expensive, probably not what they deserve but you can understand the logic behind the decision. Chaos Terminators also start off cheaper than Loyalists therefore pay more to be upgraded to a similar level. It's the same concept behind Fantasy's Tomb Guard vs Grave Guard, very similar units but Tomb Guard are more expensive because the TK army syngerised better with them.
Also MoS terminators are better then loyalist terminators if both have Lightning Claws against I4 opponents, which is statistically a large category. So there is that.
Except, for their price, they're not survivable or killy for a 2+. Even in the codex by itself it isn't a unit worth taking.
xlDuke wrote: Yeah if they gift those sorts of stats I'll be looking forward to my Mega Nobz getting W3 (W4 on Boss Nobz), T5, twin-linked rokkit launchas, re-rolling AP4 or worse for no price increase
When Mega Nobz are wearing more than just scraps of armor plating, we'll talk.
It's not 'eavy armour, it's mega armour and it's the best personal armour a mek can build. Not quite so clever as tactical dreadnaught armour, but that's represented by a lack of invulnerable save and deep strike ability and it still costs as much as an assault terminator. I was highlighting the fact that there isn't anything inherently wrong with Terminators and their equivalents (except being overpriced) and that it would be a bit unfair to buff Space Marine Terminators and not think about the effect it has on similar units.
Take a look at the actual Mega Nobz models. There's large chunks of exposed flesh.
Also, you can't just throw out the whole "My Mega Nobz need to be buffed too" when compared to C: SM or C: DA or C: BA Terminators.
Mega Nobz are minimum unit sizes of 3, come with grenades, and have a few other goodies that boost up their usefulness.
All the Terminators I mentioned are minimum unit sizes of 5, have no grenades, and really are just in the Codex because they've been there forever.
Lol, yes they have assault grenades...
Now lets look at their cool close combat weapon options.
- Powerklaw (unwieldy)
- Killsaw (unwieldy)
They don't have any other close combat options at all. No storm shields, no thunderhammers, no lightning claws.
So yeah those grenades and cool upgrades make a world of difference ; )
Most people mention that Terminators don't seem to have anything going for them and are poorly designed, but I argue that they're another victim of the power creep the game has incurred over the years.
Back when I first started 40k, Terminators were actually feared in my local meta because:
1.) The vanilla versions brought the Assault Cannon and Power Fists, along with the occasional Chainfist for heavy armor cracking. Close Combat Terminators were the only source of massed, cheap Lightning Claws and Thunderhammer/Storm Shields.
2.) While they cost even more in points back then, everything else also cost MUCH more. A termagant, universally considered a swarm unit, cost 8 points back then, and a Hormagaunt costed 9.
3.) Widespread access to quick, efficient transports and fast movement were rare or flat out nonexistant for most armies. A rhino costs 50 points base and came with much less fun stuff than it does now. And that's just a Rhino; stuff like Chimeras, Wave Serpents and all other junk came at even higher premiums, often costing more than the squad they were bought for! In addition, running was nonexistant too, so while Terminators weren't necessarily faster back then, it meant they got a lot more mileage out of their weapon's superior range back then (They could, at the very least, keep pace with most enemy troops).
Terminators were made for a very different time, and aside from the change to Storm Shields that happened in 5th edition, very little has otherwise been done to help them adapt to the times. Weapons have gotten stronger and cheaper, which rendered their armor moot; back then it would probably take your entire army's shooting to take out a squad of Terminators in one or two turns, while now most squads of comparable cost can probably do it if they can field enough bodies (Death by flashlights is a very real fear for them now).
With Transports, Running, and all sorts of movement modifiers (in the form of buffs, special rules, etc.) running around, Terminators no longer have the luxury of simply running forward and shooting things. Nerfs to CCand Power Weapons in general also neutered CC terminators since they would often get shot up before closing the distance without an expensive land raider, and even if they did close the distance often something else would have done the job faster, better and cheaper than them.
Finally, Terminators, especially the vanilla variants, no longer have their niche of armor busting; back then units didn't come with grenades as standard; you had to pay for them. Quite a lot too (2 points per model for Krak Grenades usually, 1 point for Frags. Imagine all of that for EVERY MODEL). Now these things come as standard on almost every trooper. Why bother with a 200 point squad that has a hard time catching up to vehicles when you can spend the same amount of points on a unit that can probably throw out Grav attacks, high Strength volume attacks to shave off Hull Points, or some weird special rule like Haywire? Their weapons also got more widespread; now a lot more guys can take Storm Shields, Lightning Claws, Thunderhammers and so on. What was once almost near-exclusive to them is now basically handed out like candy. Candy to people who cost less and can do far more with them, and with the option to mix and match.
Reduce the cost of each model to 30 points base, add the ability for each to take one heavy or one special weapon at cost, and then add +4 FNP. Much better unit.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: Most people mention that Terminators don't seem to have anything going for them and are poorly designed, but I argue that they're another victim of the power creep the game has incurred over the years.
Back when I first started 40k, Terminators were actually feared in my local meta because:
1.) The vanilla versions brought the Assault Cannon and Power Fists, along with the occasional Chainfist for heavy armor cracking. Close Combat Terminators were the only source of massed, cheap Lightning Claws and Thunderhammer/Storm Shields.
2.) While they cost even more in points back then, everything else also cost MUCH more. A termagant, universally considered a swarm unit, cost 8 points back then, and a Hormagaunt costed 9.
3.) Widespread access to quick, efficient transports and fast movement were rare or flat out nonexistant for most armies. A rhino costs 50 points base and came with much less fun stuff than it does now. And that's just a Rhino; stuff like Chimeras, Wave Serpents and all other junk came at even higher premiums, often costing more than the squad they were bought for! In addition, running was nonexistant too, so while Terminators weren't necessarily faster back then, it meant they got a lot more mileage out of their weapon's superior range back then (They could, at the very least, keep pace with most enemy troops).
Terminators were made for a very different time, and aside from the change to Storm Shields that happened in 5th edition, very little has otherwise been done to help them adapt to the times. Weapons have gotten stronger and cheaper, which rendered their armor moot; back then it would probably take your entire army's shooting to take out a squad of Terminators in one or two turns, while now most squads of comparable cost can probably do it if they can field enough bodies (Death by flashlights is a very real fear for them now).
With Transports, Running, and all sorts of movement modifiers (in the form of buffs, special rules, etc.) running around, Terminators no longer have the luxury of simply running forward and shooting things. Nerfs to CCand Power Weapons in general also neutered CC terminators since they would often get shot up before closing the distance without an expensive land raider, and even if they did close the distance often something else would have done the job faster, better and cheaper than them.
Finally, Terminators, especially the vanilla variants, no longer have their niche of armor busting; back then units didn't come with grenades as standard; you had to pay for them. Quite a lot too (2 points per model for Krak Grenades usually, 1 point for Frags. Imagine all of that for EVERY MODEL). Now these things come as standard on almost every trooper. Why bother with a 200 point squad that has a hard time catching up to vehicles when you can spend the same amount of points on a unit that can probably throw out Grav attacks, high Strength volume attacks to shave off Hull Points, or some weird special rule like Haywire? Their weapons also got more widespread; now a lot more guys can take Storm Shields, Lightning Claws, Thunderhammers and so on. What was once almost near-exclusive to them is now basically handed out like candy. Candy to people who cost less and can do far more with them, and with the option to mix and match.
Exalted!
Terminators essentially suffer from the same problem that the entire Chaos Marine codex has suffered from; the game has long since changed & evolved past them, yet Terminators stubbornly refuse to change at all. (or rather, GW refuses to admit that Termies need to change & evolve with the times!)
What I'd honestly do for them;
- Reduce base cost to 30pts/model.
- T5/2++
- Add +1W to the Vet Sergeant (he's a damned Veteran Sergeant for feth's sake!) Note I'd also make this change codex wide, so ALL Vet Sergeants & Aspiring Champions become W2 characters. (it would also give more of a reason to spend the extra pts to upgrade to Veteran status)
- Reduce unit size to 3+ for SW's, DA's, BT's, GK's & CSM's. Codex adherent Chapters remain 5-10.
- 3-5 strong unit may take 0-1 Heavy weapon. 6+ may take 0-2 Heavy weapons.
- Change Storm Bolter to S4/ap5, Shred, Salvo 2/3. Salvo rule itself changes to always use the maximum range, moving units may only fire the lesser number of shots, may not shoot & assault in the same turn. Relentless units ignore the latter two penalties. (ie: always shoot max shots + can shoot & assault same turn)
- Combi-weapons remain only accessible to SW & CSM versions.
Martel732 wrote: Why are people acting like they were ever good?
Because they were decent against non-Eldar armies in 3rd, and 3.5ed + 4th ed Loyalist versions were great in 4th when they had access to cheap Veteran skills. (double Ass-cans w/Tank-hunter were disgustingly good back in the day!)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I disagree. They were at best mediocre in 4th. I won't speak for 5th.
Tank-hunting Assault cannons came at the same time that the cannons themselves got a huge power boost to Heavy 4 + Rending.
It essentially gave Vanilla Marines & Templars 5th ed GK's Psycannons vs. vehicles, back when vehicles in general cost an arm and a leg. Only Necrons and their monolith laughed at them.
And iirc, that squad was only 250pts total, since back then the Assault cannon was still just 20pts, +2pts/model for the Vet skill.
Edit: Rending itself was also better, since it hurt infantry on the To-hit rolls of 6, and auto-wounded with no armour save.
I used the codex space marine strike force ultra formation today. FOr those who dont know it has 20 terminators base (2 squads of standard ones and 2 squads of assault) and 1 termy captain who can be replaced by Lysander.
I played one game with them and in another game a played with assault centurions.
The standard terminators deep struck on the right side of the field and did some decent damage with their krak missle shooting and mass storm bolter fire, but all they did was wipe out some minor enemy units. The Assault terminators on the other hand fell victim to their classic weakness of being vulnerable to mass shooting. Being only toughness 4 means they are wounded easily and they will eventually fail their 2 up armor or 3 up invuln. They didnt feel like a threat at all and while I did win the game it was only because my opponent was not bringing a competitive list on top of being a Tyranid player.
On the other the assault centurion game was a slaughter. Centurions just ran over anything and everything they touched with their superior toughness and wounds in addition to having S10 armorbane attacks at initiative. They just totally blew the terminators out of the water in terms of effectiveness and even in terms of survivability. Yeah termies get a 3 up or 5 up invuln, but cents get t5 and 2 wounds.
If I were to buff terminators (which I think they need to be buffed) I would give them t5 and have the sarge have 2 wounds on top of the unit having fear. They are the ELITES of the space marines. I do believe that title alone would strike fear into the hearts of their enemies.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I disagree. They were at best mediocre in 4th. I won't speak for 5th.
As a guy who still plays 4th edition, they still have a strong place in any list, there just isn't the massed firepower to take them down quickly anymore. And as for them being mediocre, even a mediocre unit can perform well when used correctly in that edition, because there just wasn't the huge disparity between units in the same codex.
The big problem is that they stayed the same, while the crazy power creep passed them by a couple of editions ago. Which considering long-standing fluff (and how that actually impacts game mechanics) is insane.
Just too many hot new crazy things being released. Updated terminators with increased oprions could have been released instead of Centurions, easily.
Terminators mainly lack a cheap means of transportation. For their points they aren't terrible (if you get them into close combat) but the issue remains of how your going to get them up the field in one piece. Deepstriking is risky and opens you to being shot in the face when you stand around in your post teleport haze. Landraiders cost an arm and a leg for what amounts to a AV14 rolling assault box. Compare them to something like Meganobz who function in a very similar manner but the real factor that makes Meganobz great compared to Terminators is that you can throw them in a 35 point trukk (or a pricier Battlewagon that is still half the cost and nearly twice the transport capacity of a Landraider) to zoom down the battlefield and assault out from the vehicle. The entire MANz Missile tactic works because your throwing MSU Meganobz down field in fast and cheap transports into the enemy's face forcing a response from the enemy. Terminators could function in a very similar manner and yet they can't because their only means of transportation is either high risk of suicide and reserve reliant or so expensive that the only way to make the transport cost effective is to take a big squad of terminators to justify the 250 point box, Now your sitting on a 600 point unit which is 1/3 of your entire army.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You compare Terminators to Terminators because they're based around the same kinda unit, you walnut.
A Loyalist version of what you're doing would be superior in every manner. You'd have better access to mobility (more Land Raider variants, Storm Ravens for those with a death wish, Teleport Homers), have access to formations (which means not taking up an Elite slot), and then access to Chapter Tactics as you feel like.
The only manner a CSM Terminator ends up better is when you take 3-4 of them with Combi-Melta or Plasma and give them Axes.
Point of contention: Not better in every manner. Chaos Landraiders have dozer blades, which is a way in which chaos land raider terminators are better. Chaos are also better at exploiting fearless characters joining units which have gone to ground (i.e. shooting/charging despite having g2g the previous round).
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I disagree. They were at best mediocre in 4th. I won't speak for 5th.
Assault Terminators weren't bad in 5th. Fearless Wound mechanics made them effective against Orks, Daemons etc because Terminators nearly always won the CC even if they didn't kill that many models in actual combat.
I've been out for the last couple editions, but how would they be if they had a special rule that allowed them to act normally in the turn they deepstrike?
Unfortunately in true GW fashion soon everyone would have that skill, making Terminators surpassed again.....
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I disagree. They were at best mediocre in 4th. I won't speak for 5th.
Assault Terminators weren't bad in 5th. Fearless Wound mechanics made them effective against Orks, Daemons etc because Terminators nearly always won the CC even if they didn't kill that many models in actual combat.
General Kroll wrote: Yeah I think it's summed up by the phrase Jack of all trades, master of none.
I love terminators, I love the look, I love the look, and they scare the hell out of me on the table for some godforsaken reason.
I think it's easy to just say they suck, they don't suck, they are still a meaty threatening unit that are hard to kill unless you have the right tools to do so.
But..
The criticisms levelled at them in this thread are all valid. But I don't think, as one poster put it up thread, that the whole game needs to change to make them work. That's frankly ridiculous.
Basically, terminators need a big points reduction, coupled with a buff for the humble Storm bolter. Also give them access to special issue ammunition, and suddenly it's a whole different ball game.
Make the storm bolter salvo 2/4 or even 2/6 and cost 10-15 points, and on a relentless platform where they get it base, it becomes a beast of a weapon, with all sorts of fun ammo options.
Yet on an ordinary mook it's still pretty average.
so you beolieve in a race to the bottom to solve all our problems? perhaps ud like to make power armoured marines free, i hear people dont like paying for things XD
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You compare Terminators to Terminators because they're based around the same kinda unit, you walnut.
A Loyalist version of what you're doing would be superior in every manner. You'd have better access to mobility (more Land Raider variants, Storm Ravens for those with a death wish, Teleport Homers), have access to formations (which means not taking up an Elite slot), and then access to Chapter Tactics as you feel like.
The only manner a CSM Terminator ends up better is when you take 3-4 of them with Combi-Melta or Plasma and give them Axes.
Point of contention: Not better in every manner. Chaos Landraiders have dozer blades, which is a way in which chaos land raider terminators are better. Chaos are also better at exploiting fearless characters joining units which have gone to ground (i.e. shooting/charging despite having g2g the previous round).
Dozer Blades aren't worth the worst version of the Land Raider. You're literally grasping at straws.
1st Company Task Force Terminators also gain Fearless, so that isn't something totally exclusive either. The other units aren't even a tax because you were likely to bring them anyway!
We're looking at land raiders as a delivery system, not as a gun wagon. The ability to get there is more important than their weaponry in this case. No straws in my hand.
I think you are missing my point about fearless. You don't want the unit to be fearless, as that removes their ability to go to ground. You want a fearless independent character to join the unit AFTER they've gone to ground as this cancels go to ground, letting the unit shoot and charge normally despite having claimed an improved cover save. Is this not something you've ever done/had done to you?
No, you don't want Terminators to be swept, and that's all that will happen to the CSM ones without characters.
Regarding going to ground, Terminators don't benefit a lot from cover anyway because they have a 5++, or you cast Sanctuary for a slightly better one. TAGK once again show how much superior they are to the CSM ones.
FYI, fearless doesn't stop loyalists from being swept as they also have ATSKNF. On these models fearless mainly stops them being TRAPPED!, pushed off the board, safely getting out of losing combats and G2Ging. On balance fearless isn't much of a buff as it is for other units.
On a d6 system a +1 modifier is a big deal, especially when you don't have to sacrifice shooting or charging to get it. Find a crater behind a tank trap and you're golden .
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: Most people mention that Terminators don't seem to have anything going for them and are poorly designed, but I argue that they're another victim of the power creep the game has incurred over the years.
Back when I first started 40k, Terminators were actually feared in my local meta because:
1.) The vanilla versions brought the Assault Cannon and Power Fists, along with the occasional Chainfist for heavy armor cracking. Close Combat Terminators were the only source of massed, cheap Lightning Claws and Thunderhammer/Storm Shields.
2.) While they cost even more in points back then, everything else also cost MUCH more. A termagant, universally considered a swarm unit, cost 8 points back then, and a Hormagaunt costed 9.
3.) Widespread access to quick, efficient transports and fast movement were rare or flat out nonexistant for most armies. A rhino costs 50 points base and came with much less fun stuff than it does now. And that's just a Rhino; stuff like Chimeras, Wave Serpents and all other junk came at even higher premiums, often costing more than the squad they were bought for! In addition, running was nonexistant too, so while Terminators weren't necessarily faster back then, it meant they got a lot more mileage out of their weapon's superior range back then (They could, at the very least, keep pace with most enemy troops).
Terminators were made for a very different time, and aside from the change to Storm Shields that happened in 5th edition, very little has otherwise been done to help them adapt to the times. Weapons have gotten stronger and cheaper, which rendered their armor moot; back then it would probably take your entire army's shooting to take out a squad of Terminators in one or two turns, while now most squads of comparable cost can probably do it if they can field enough bodies (Death by flashlights is a very real fear for them now).
With Transports, Running, and all sorts of movement modifiers (in the form of buffs, special rules, etc.) running around, Terminators no longer have the luxury of simply running forward and shooting things. Nerfs to CCand Power Weapons in general also neutered CC terminators since they would often get shot up before closing the distance without an expensive land raider, and even if they did close the distance often something else would have done the job faster, better and cheaper than them.
Finally, Terminators, especially the vanilla variants, no longer have their niche of armor busting; back then units didn't come with grenades as standard; you had to pay for them. Quite a lot too (2 points per model for Krak Grenades usually, 1 point for Frags. Imagine all of that for EVERY MODEL). Now these things come as standard on almost every trooper. Why bother with a 200 point squad that has a hard time catching up to vehicles when you can spend the same amount of points on a unit that can probably throw out Grav attacks, high Strength volume attacks to shave off Hull Points, or some weird special rule like Haywire? Their weapons also got more widespread; now a lot more guys can take Storm Shields, Lightning Claws, Thunderhammers and so on. What was once almost near-exclusive to them is now basically handed out like candy. Candy to people who cost less and can do far more with them, and with the option to mix and match.
Exalted!
Terminators essentially suffer from the same problem that the entire Chaos Marine codex has suffered from; the game has long since changed & evolved past them, yet Terminators stubbornly refuse to change at all. (or rather, GW refuses to admit that Termies need to change & evolve with the times!)
What I'd honestly do for them;
- Reduce base cost to 30pts/model.
- T5/2++
- Add +1W to the Vet Sergeant (he's a damned Veteran Sergeant for feth's sake!) Note I'd also make this change codex wide, so ALL Vet Sergeants & Aspiring Champions become W2 characters. (it would also give more of a reason to spend the extra pts to upgrade to Veteran status)
- Reduce unit size to 3+ for SW's, DA's, BT's, GK's & CSM's. Codex adherent Chapters remain 5-10.
- 3-5 strong unit may take 0-1 Heavy weapon. 6+ may take 0-2 Heavy weapons.
- Change Storm Bolter to S4/ap5, Shred, Salvo 2/3. Salvo rule itself changes to always use the maximum range, moving units may only fire the lesser number of shots, may not shoot & assault in the same turn. Relentless units ignore the latter two penalties. (ie: always shoot max shots + can shoot & assault same turn)
- Combi-weapons remain only accessible to SW & CSM versions.
Ahh yes, this is what these threads always eventually turn into. The unit is currently overcosted, so let us decrease the point buff the ever living out of them at the same time. Now we have an ultra-broken unit - but it is cool, it is in my army. Haha, love it.
OP They've been hamstrung by bad stats ever since the rule overhaul in 3rd ed, and very little has been done by GW to fix it.
They need 4+ invul save, 5+ is pants with the volume of AP2 firepower out there. Storm bolters are also fairly mediocre and need more shots.
Classic example of great model, bad rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grumblewartz wrote: [spoiler]
Ahh yes, this is what these threads always eventually turn into. The unit is currently overcosted, so let us decrease the point buff the ever living out of them at the same time. Now we have an ultra-broken unit
Lol. Agree, it can be one or the other, never both.
There's a lot of good terminator variants for 30k. All the 2W ones like Red Butchers or Firedrakes. The sheer amount of S8 AP3 rockets coming out of Iron Warriors terminators is pretty spectacular, too.
Then again, there's bad ones like the Phoenix Guard or whatever the Alpha Legion ones are called.
Proof that all terminators really need is increased firepower loadouts, or 2W apiece.
@Grumblewartz: It is pretty funny. My favorite part about that logic is the same people are the ones who complain that GW can't balance their codices.
Traditio wrote: In 40k, specialization is the name of the game if you want your units to be effective. Terminators are 35 ppm and don't do any one thing extraordinarily well. You're better off using honor guard or something.
Thats not entirely true, Chaos Terminators Termicide and die in droves quite efficiently It's almost guaranteed!
In order to make termies good let them assault the turn they deep strike let them deep strike turn 1 with no scatter (hell teleport homers right) make them I5 and give them sweeping advance.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: Most people mention that Terminators don't seem to have anything going for them and are poorly designed, but I argue that they're another victim of the power creep the game has incurred over the years.
Back when I first started 40k, Terminators were actually feared in my local meta because:
1.) The vanilla versions brought the Assault Cannon and Power Fists, along with the occasional Chainfist for heavy armor cracking. Close Combat Terminators were the only source of massed, cheap Lightning Claws and Thunderhammer/Storm Shields.
2.) While they cost even more in points back then, everything else also cost MUCH more. A termagant, universally considered a swarm unit, cost 8 points back then, and a Hormagaunt costed 9.
3.) Widespread access to quick, efficient transports and fast movement were rare or flat out nonexistant for most armies. A rhino costs 50 points base and came with much less fun stuff than it does now. And that's just a Rhino; stuff like Chimeras, Wave Serpents and all other junk came at even higher premiums, often costing more than the squad they were bought for! In addition, running was nonexistant too, so while Terminators weren't necessarily faster back then, it meant they got a lot more mileage out of their weapon's superior range back then (They could, at the very least, keep pace with most enemy troops).
Terminators were made for a very different time, and aside from the change to Storm Shields that happened in 5th edition, very little has otherwise been done to help them adapt to the times. Weapons have gotten stronger and cheaper, which rendered their armor moot; back then it would probably take your entire army's shooting to take out a squad of Terminators in one or two turns, while now most squads of comparable cost can probably do it if they can field enough bodies (Death by flashlights is a very real fear for them now).
With Transports, Running, and all sorts of movement modifiers (in the form of buffs, special rules, etc.) running around, Terminators no longer have the luxury of simply running forward and shooting things. Nerfs to CCand Power Weapons in general also neutered CC terminators since they would often get shot up before closing the distance without an expensive land raider, and even if they did close the distance often something else would have done the job faster, better and cheaper than them.
Finally, Terminators, especially the vanilla variants, no longer have their niche of armor busting; back then units didn't come with grenades as standard; you had to pay for them. Quite a lot too (2 points per model for Krak Grenades usually, 1 point for Frags. Imagine all of that for EVERY MODEL). Now these things come as standard on almost every trooper. Why bother with a 200 point squad that has a hard time catching up to vehicles when you can spend the same amount of points on a unit that can probably throw out Grav attacks, high Strength volume attacks to shave off Hull Points, or some weird special rule like Haywire? Their weapons also got more widespread; now a lot more guys can take Storm Shields, Lightning Claws, Thunderhammers and so on. What was once almost near-exclusive to them is now basically handed out like candy. Candy to people who cost less and can do far more with them, and with the option to mix and match.
Exalted!
Terminators essentially suffer from the same problem that the entire Chaos Marine codex has suffered from; the game has long since changed & evolved past them, yet Terminators stubbornly refuse to change at all. (or rather, GW refuses to admit that Termies need to change & evolve with the times!)
What I'd honestly do for them;
- Reduce base cost to 30pts/model.
- T5/2++
- Add +1W to the Vet Sergeant (he's a damned Veteran Sergeant for feth's sake!) Note I'd also make this change codex wide, so ALL Vet Sergeants & Aspiring Champions become W2 characters. (it would also give more of a reason to spend the extra pts to upgrade to Veteran status)
- Reduce unit size to 3+ for SW's, DA's, BT's, GK's & CSM's. Codex adherent Chapters remain 5-10.
- 3-5 strong unit may take 0-1 Heavy weapon. 6+ may take 0-2 Heavy weapons.
- Change Storm Bolter to S4/ap5, Shred, Salvo 2/3. Salvo rule itself changes to always use the maximum range, moving units may only fire the lesser number of shots, may not shoot & assault in the same turn. Relentless units ignore the latter two penalties. (ie: always shoot max shots + can shoot & assault same turn)
- Combi-weapons remain only accessible to SW & CSM versions.
Ahh yes, this is what these threads always eventually turn into. The unit is currently overcosted, so let us decrease the point buff the ever living out of them at the same time. Now we have an ultra-broken unit - but it is cool, it is in my army. Haha, love it.
Yeah, god forbid Terminators become usable...
Terminator/Chaos Terminator; add +1T 30pts/model
Terminator Sergeant/Terminator Champion; add +1W to profile in addition to the basic +1T boost
- nothing else profile wise changes. They're still base 2+/5++. All current upgrades stay the same cost. (so chaos versions are still royally fethed!)
This wouldn't magically make Termies suddenly OP by any stretch... There's more than enough multi-shot S5/6 in the game to hose them down, however it would allow them to shrug off basic small arms fire in a way that's much more fitting to how they're perceived in the background.
For Codex Space Marines & Codex Blood Angels, base unit size is 5 - 10 max.
For Chaos Terminators, Black Templars, Wolfguard, Deathwing & Grey Knights, base unit size is 3 - 10 max.
- why? because of the Loyalist Chapters, those 4 are the most dramatically divergent from their 'codex' brethren. 3 min has also long been a staple difference of Chaos as well.
Units of 3-5 may take a single Heavy weapon upgrade. Units of 6-10 may take a second upgrade.
- why? Because currently one of the biggest factors holding Termies back in general is that you can't viably generate any kind of decent firepower from such an expensive unit! They're not going to suddenly 'break the game' buy having to pay only an extra 30pts 'tax' to unlock a second upgrade... Scatbikes, everything Tau in general, Grav cannons, dakka Tyrants/'Fexes et all will still outgun paired Assault cannons.
However, with 2 for only 6 models, Termies can suddenly fight back some!
Storm Bolters become 24"/S4/ap5/Salvo 2/3 + Shred.
- Storm Bolters are among the single worst weapons in the game currently. They were 'good' back when Rapid Fire weapons couldn't move and shoot effectively, and everything in general was 10-50% more costly. Now, they're a ****ing joke, even more so than basic Bolters!
All Bolt weapons should probably have the Shred rule as standard anyways, which would at least bring them up to the same standard as every other basic gun, bar the Lasgun/Autogun. (which should be noticeably weaker anyways, and a better Bolter would also merit Guardsmen going down to 4pts/model)
Combi-weapons can only be taken by Chaos & Wolfguard Termies. Everyone else has gotten with the modern times after all!
For Orkky versions, (Ork players please help me out here!), I'd give them the following;
T5/W2/2+ @40pts/model base
Standard weapons load is Kustom-Shoota + Power klaw. (all upgrades remain the same)
Kustom Kombi-Shoota = 18"/S5/ap5/Assault D3+1 (roll once for entire unit)
- let Kombi-Skorchas & Rokkits use the newer shoota profile...
Like Terminators, Meganobz lack decent shooting output for such a costly unit. They could use a bit more punch, especially since they lack the ability to take actual heavy weapons to augment their basic guns.
add Cybork Body upgrade for +5pts/model - gives 5++, re-rolling 1's.
- Adds a level of randomness to the Orks, but on the whole, works out to be roughly on par with a strait-up 4++.
add Kustom Mega-Boosta for +2pts/model - declare if using at the beginning of the Ork player turn, unit gains the 'Fleet' USR, but models may only make Snapshots in their next Shooting phase.
- with only Trukks & Battlewagons as delivery systems, helps to give an otherwise slow assault unit a bit of a boost.
Assault Terminators weren't bad in 5th. Fearless Wound mechanics made them effective against Orks, Daemons etc because Terminators nearly always won the CC even if they didn't kill that many models in actual combat.
They were still bad.
They were quite good early in the edition, especially against Orks, then gradually got worse as edition progressed and new more powerful codices came out.
SRSFACE wrote: The only one of these things that's a tangible benefit is the 2+/5++. Deep striking has it's usefulness, but space marines have plenty of other ways to deep strike units. Many of those units are significantly better in the turn they arrive from deep strike than Terminators are (Sternguard in general, Company Veterans for Dark Angels geared out with Combi-weapons, etc)
That is true in SM, but CSM is different thing. You can take combis to all (example termicide) and deepstriking is valuable when CSM have not drop pods.
CSM have a whole bucketload of problems. The fact they're reliant on Terminators to access Deep Striking (with all the same weaknesses but no ATSKNF) or a 2+ save for a character is just the tip of a sad iceberg.
Doubly so when you realise that their actual kit is tragic - not quite including enough combi weapons or variety of power weapons to make building a solid squad feasible.
But like I said, CSM have a whole slew of problems of their own. Terminators are literally the tip of an iceberg.
Martel732 wrote: Loyalist termies were bad in 2nd because of cost and -6 armor save weapons.
They became permabad after plasma was made ap2 rapid fire. It's only gotten worse since.
The irony that TDA was originally made for usage in plasma reactors, and yet is so commonly destroyed by plasma guns, always amuses me.
Without a massive global ruleset overhaul (toning down invul and AP2 availability), my approach to redesigning Terminators would simply changing their base model stats:
39pts, T5, 4++,, allow up to 2 special/heavy weapons per squad, options to change powerfists for power weapons free, give them an Autocannon option.
Would result in models that are more resistant to massed low S firepower (as they should be) and can still pack a fair amount of firepower and can strike at I if swapping fists.
man i played termies when they didnt even have the 5 up. BACK IN MY DAY..........
I feel like termies need a point reduction, way to get into assault easier, additional wound, or what about a 3 up invuln with shield. termies and dreads are what attracted me to space marines originally
Martel732 wrote: Loyalist termies were bad in 2nd because of cost and -6 armor save weapons.
They became permabad after plasma was made ap2 rapid fire. It's only gotten worse since.
I don't personally find Plasma rifles so bothersome. They are expensive and have low volume of fire. It is small arms volume fire and some Codex specific weapons which always kills my Termies, not so much Plasma rifles.
Martel732 wrote: Loyalist termies were bad in 2nd because of cost and -6 armor save weapons.
They became permabad after plasma was made ap2 rapid fire. It's only gotten worse since.
I don't personally find Plasma rifles so bothersome. They are expensive and have low volume of fire. It is small arms volume fire and some Codex specific weapons which always kills my Termies, not so much Plasma rifles.
They often come together. Yes, scatterlasers will kill you from 36" away laughing the whole time. This is not news. 2nd ed shuriken cannons were -3 armor save and also mowed down termies from a range with weight of wounds. Termies have always had this problem. But old CSM terminators could shoot back.
I think Terminators sucking partly comes down to the way 40k works at its core. Just the way the wounds, toughness and armour save system works it makes it hard for a unit of "tactical dreadnoughts" to do anything but suck.
Make them T5 to reduce the effect of small arms. You could potentially make them W2 to reduce the effect of a bad roll and so it takes more shots from things like plasma guns to kill them. Make it so a lot of single shot anti tank weaponry (ie. stuff that is powerful but designed to hit large targets) has a negative "to hit" modifier when targeting infantry targets so that turning your heavy weapons on elite infantry becomes a harder choice.
I have no idea how much they'd be worth with those changes and it might cause other issues that also need to be solved, but it would make Terminators play like the walking tanks they should be,
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: Most people mention that Terminators don't seem to have anything going for them and are poorly designed, but I argue that they're another victim of the power creep the game has incurred over the years.
Back when I first started 40k, Terminators were actually feared in my local meta because:
1.) The vanilla versions brought the Assault Cannon and Power Fists, along with the occasional Chainfist for heavy armor cracking. Close Combat Terminators were the only source of massed, cheap Lightning Claws and Thunderhammer/Storm Shields.
2.) While they cost even more in points back then, everything else also cost MUCH more. A termagant, universally considered a swarm unit, cost 8 points back then, and a Hormagaunt costed 9.
3.) Widespread access to quick, efficient transports and fast movement were rare or flat out nonexistant for most armies. A rhino costs 50 points base and came with much less fun stuff than it does now. And that's just a Rhino; stuff like Chimeras, Wave Serpents and all other junk came at even higher premiums, often costing more than the squad they were bought for! In addition, running was nonexistant too, so while Terminators weren't necessarily faster back then, it meant they got a lot more mileage out of their weapon's superior range back then (They could, at the very least, keep pace with most enemy troops).
Terminators were made for a very different time, and aside from the change to Storm Shields that happened in 5th edition, very little has otherwise been done to help them adapt to the times. Weapons have gotten stronger and cheaper, which rendered their armor moot; back then it would probably take your entire army's shooting to take out a squad of Terminators in one or two turns, while now most squads of comparable cost can probably do it if they can field enough bodies (Death by flashlights is a very real fear for them now).
With Transports, Running, and all sorts of movement modifiers (in the form of buffs, special rules, etc.) running around, Terminators no longer have the luxury of simply running forward and shooting things. Nerfs to CCand Power Weapons in general also neutered CC terminators since they would often get shot up before closing the distance without an expensive land raider, and even if they did close the distance often something else would have done the job faster, better and cheaper than them.
Finally, Terminators, especially the vanilla variants, no longer have their niche of armor busting; back then units didn't come with grenades as standard; you had to pay for them. Quite a lot too (2 points per model for Krak Grenades usually, 1 point for Frags. Imagine all of that for EVERY MODEL). Now these things come as standard on almost every trooper. Why bother with a 200 point squad that has a hard time catching up to vehicles when you can spend the same amount of points on a unit that can probably throw out Grav attacks, high Strength volume attacks to shave off Hull Points, or some weird special rule like Haywire? Their weapons also got more widespread; now a lot more guys can take Storm Shields, Lightning Claws, Thunderhammers and so on. What was once almost near-exclusive to them is now basically handed out like candy. Candy to people who cost less and can do far more with them, and with the option to mix and match.
Exalted!
Terminators essentially suffer from the same problem that the entire Chaos Marine codex has suffered from; the game has long since changed & evolved past them, yet Terminators stubbornly refuse to change at all. (or rather, GW refuses to admit that Termies need to change & evolve with the times!)
What I'd honestly do for them;
- Reduce base cost to 30pts/model.
- T5/2++
- Add +1W to the Vet Sergeant (he's a damned Veteran Sergeant for feth's sake!) Note I'd also make this change codex wide, so ALL Vet Sergeants & Aspiring Champions become W2 characters. (it would also give more of a reason to spend the extra pts to upgrade to Veteran status)
- Reduce unit size to 3+ for SW's, DA's, BT's, GK's & CSM's. Codex adherent Chapters remain 5-10.
- 3-5 strong unit may take 0-1 Heavy weapon. 6+ may take 0-2 Heavy weapons.
- Change Storm Bolter to S4/ap5, Shred, Salvo 2/3. Salvo rule itself changes to always use the maximum range, moving units may only fire the lesser number of shots, may not shoot & assault in the same turn. Relentless units ignore the latter two penalties. (ie: always shoot max shots + can shoot & assault same turn)
- Combi-weapons remain only accessible to SW & CSM versions.
Ahh yes, this is what these threads always eventually turn into. The unit is currently overcosted, so let us decrease the point buff the ever living out of them at the same time. Now we have an ultra-broken unit - but it is cool, it is in my army. Haha, love it.
Yeah, god forbid Terminators become usable...
Terminator/Chaos Terminator; add +1T 30pts/model
Terminator Sergeant/Terminator Champion; add +1W to profile in addition to the basic +1T boost
- nothing else profile wise changes. They're still base 2+/5++. All current upgrades stay the same cost. (so chaos versions are still royally fethed!)
This wouldn't magically make Termies suddenly OP by any stretch... There's more than enough multi-shot S5/6 in the game to hose them down, however it would allow them to shrug off basic small arms fire in a way that's much more fitting to how they're perceived in the background.
For Codex Space Marines & Codex Blood Angels, base unit size is 5 - 10 max.
For Chaos Terminators, Black Templars, Wolfguard, Deathwing & Grey Knights, base unit size is 3 - 10 max.
- why? because of the Loyalist Chapters, those 4 are the most dramatically divergent from their 'codex' brethren. 3 min has also long been a staple difference of Chaos as well.
Units of 3-5 may take a single Heavy weapon upgrade. Units of 6-10 may take a second upgrade.
- why? Because currently one of the biggest factors holding Termies back in general is that you can't viably generate any kind of decent firepower from such an expensive unit! They're not going to suddenly 'break the game' buy having to pay only an extra 30pts 'tax' to unlock a second upgrade... Scatbikes, everything Tau in general, Grav cannons, dakka Tyrants/'Fexes et all will still outgun paired Assault cannons.
However, with 2 for only 6 models, Termies can suddenly fight back some!
Storm Bolters become 24"/S4/ap5/Salvo 2/3 + Shred.
- Storm Bolters are among the single worst weapons in the game currently. They were 'good' back when Rapid Fire weapons couldn't move and shoot effectively, and everything in general was 10-50% more costly. Now, they're a ****ing joke, even more so than basic Bolters!
All Bolt weapons should probably have the Shred rule as standard anyways, which would at least bring them up to the same standard as every other basic gun, bar the Lasgun/Autogun. (which should be noticeably weaker anyways, and a better Bolter would also merit Guardsmen going down to 4pts/model)
Combi-weapons can only be taken by Chaos & Wolfguard Termies. Everyone else has gotten with the modern times after all!
[/spoiler]
Dude, you aren't helping your point. You say each upgrade isn't a big deal individually, but somehow miss the very basic point that adding ALL OF THEM together AND REDUCING points would make the unit swing in the entirely opposite direction. I love it.
1) no more gargantuans, or super heavies outside of apcoalypse, you dont like it too bad
2) bike units and jetbikes need a major price jack, and shooting centric specialists need to have some of their special rules packages and baselines either adjusted or be gutted. theyve grown out of control
3) you need to slow the game down, this will probably need to involve a reworking of the imbalance between shooting and melee (as noted in item 2) and a rebalancing of unit types where some unit types are objectively better then others because of their mechanics. such as jump infantry and jetpack infantry, jetbikes, cavalry, and bikes. formations that encourage shooting would also need to be re-examind ad well as CC patch job formations like the skyhammer annihilation force and shadowstrike killteam this is to make sure its not a totally worthless venture to buy shooting units. in some cases formations may simply be removed entirely.
option step 4) (as this mainly applies to terminator like units in other armies): you then need to go back and start fixing base armies and dropping supplemental things like formations and supplemental rules. in some cases armies could lose whole army supplements from legal use such as farsight enclave and clan raukkan, this would also include things like relics and warlord traits. for example anything granting eternal warriors would probably become very expensive, or any way to make a non troops base unit a troop such as bike marines in codex marines
So what your saying is ramp up the price of everything that can beat terminators to the point where every ary that can has to take them because other viable options are too expensive and slow down a game which based on the average time it takes to play a game at my lgs already takes at least an hour, as well as this you also want to turn an already dodgey rules system on its head
General Kroll wrote: Basically, terminators need a big points reduction, coupled with a buff for the humble Storm bolter. Also give them access to special issue ammunition, and suddenly it's a whole different ball game.
Or, alternatively, give them a 2+/3++ standard so they can actually live through the AP race that is currently happening - They have an armor the size of a house, for goodness sake. Let's give them a save that reflects that.
Honestly, I don't even see it as massive amounts of AP2, because in my experience, that's really not the case unless I'm playing against Eldar. No, the biggest problem is the fact that mass small arms fire kills terminator squads dead pretty easily. Being a single wound on a 45+ point model is a problem, and its particularly annoying given that terminator armour is supposed to be, per the fluff, immune to small arms fire.
Honestly, terminator armour for all but maybe Grey Knights will be largely considered a waste unless its completely redesigned from the ground up for all armies using it. This will likely not happen until the entire game is overhauled (ala Age of Sigmar) because so many different armies use terminator armour. It can't suddenly be dirt cheap or function completely different for Chaos when their book drops because it throws off everybody else using the same armour.
Terminators might be able to get away with the old Thousand Sons rule where they were immune to any weapons S5 or lower. Its been done before on several units, it could be done again.
Jayden63 wrote: Terminators might be able to get away with the old Thousand Sons rule where they were immune to any weapons S5 or lower. Its been done before on several units, it could be done again.
Not a terrible idea, but it might make terminators a little too durable against armies that, fluff wise, don't really care about terminator armour, particularly Tyranids with Genestealers (the traditional termie threat) and Chaos Daemons. I think a better solution would be to give a 4+ FNP roll, or heck, even a 3+ if you REALLY want to make them durable. A 3+ FNP would make them largely immune to small arms, help them against mid-range AP2 stuff like plasma guns and rending, and keep them just as vulnerable to heavy anti-tank weaponry such as lascannons, melta, and rail guns (as they should be). You'd just have to make it so that it couldn't be improved, kind of like they do with Necrons and Reanimation Protocols (can't be better than 4+).
Would significantly increased durability against small to mid arms fire be enough to make even the tactical termie worth the points? It would certainly make TH/SS termies a very enticing option as a LR wouldn't be a necessity, as well as combi termies for Chaos. I still think tactical termies should be pushed up in points to match TH/SS, and improved on their offensive capabilities.
Jayden63 wrote: Terminators might be able to get away with the old Thousand Sons rule where they were immune to any weapons S5 or lower. Its been done before on several units, it could be done again.
Not a terrible idea, but it might make terminators a little too durable against armies that, fluff wise, don't really care about terminator armour, particularly Tyranids with Genestealers (the traditional termie threat) and Chaos Daemons. I think a better solution would be to give a 4+ FNP roll, or heck, even a 3+ if you REALLY want to make them durable. A 3+ FNP would make them largely immune to small arms, help them against mid-range AP2 stuff like plasma guns and rending, and keep them just as vulnerable to heavy anti-tank weaponry such as lascannons, melta, and rail guns (as they should be). You'd just have to make it so that it couldn't be improved, kind of like they do with Necrons and Reanimation Protocols (can't be better than 4+).
Would significantly increased durability against small to mid arms fire be enough to make even the tactical termie worth the points? It would certainly make TH/SS termies a very enticing option as a LR wouldn't be a necessity, as well as combi termies for Chaos. I still think tactical termies should be pushed up in points to match TH/SS, and improved on their offensive capabilities.
I'd rather see Termie armour itself grant +1T, as that way S3 will need 6's to-wound, while S4 would at least need 5's.
Without a source of re-rolls and combined with a 2+ save, it would make Termie armour much less vulnerable to basic small arms & bare fisticuffs.
Otherwise, if they were to get a 3+ FnP, you would probably have to drop the Storm shield down to a 4++ save, as a re-rolled 3++ or 2+/3++ is just insane to try and get through.
The concern I have with making Terminators T5 is what do you do with things like Deathwing Knights who can increase their toughness. T6 termies seems a bit much.
I'd rather see Termie armour itself grant +1T, as that way S3 will need 6's to-wound, while S4 would at least need 5's.
Without a source of re-rolls and combined with a 2+ save, it would make Termie armour much less vulnerable to basic small arms & bare fisticuffs.
Otherwise, if they were to get a 3+ FnP, you would probably have to drop the Storm shield down to a 4++ save, as a re-rolled 3++ or 2+/3++ is just insane to try and get through.
+1T steps on the toes of centurions though.
While a 2+/3++/3+++ is pretty darn brutal I readily admit, it all comes down to what you feel the capabilities should be for a 45 point model geared for assault with no shooting, cannot sweeping advance, and has a single wound. Personally, I think that save line would require a points increase, at least pushing them up by 5 points per model. I'd rather terminators have better capabilities that fit close to the fluff as possible and be pointed appropriately. Terminators SHOULD be insanely difficult to kill with anything but the strongest firepower.
At their current price, maybe a 4+ FNP would be more fitting. Still makes them very durable against non-AP2 small arms, and still have a decent chance at surviving plasma and rending. Add another shot or two to stormbolters, and I think you've got a pretty decent unit in tactical termies, not over powered at all but pretty darn hard to get rid of, and an outstanding unit in assault termies with TH/SS, again, not OP because their damage output is limited because they HAVE to assault to do anything, but darn near indestructible to anything short of an anti-tank weapon..
pm713 wrote: The concern I have with making Terminators T5 is what do you do with things like Deathwing Knights who can increase their toughness. T6 termies seems a bit much.
Keep in mind that for Deathwing Knights to get their +1T bonus, they have to essentially put themselves into the stupidest formation you can in 40k... Anything in BtB is nothing more than fodder to templates/blasts.
pm713 wrote: The concern I have with making Terminators T5 is what do you do with things like Deathwing Knights who can increase their toughness. T6 termies seems a bit much.
Keep in mind that for Deathwing Knights to get their +1T bonus, they have to essentially put themselves into the stupidest formation you can in 40k... Anything in BtB is nothing more than fodder to templates/blasts.
Good point. Although you can spread them out and move them back together when you charge.
pm713 wrote: The concern I have with making Terminators T5 is what do you do with things like Deathwing Knights who can increase their toughness. T6 termies seems a bit much.
They have like NO damage output so does that even matter?
All they need is the changes I proposed earlier. S5 Storm Bolters, two Heavy Weapons per five, and TH/SS become a 5 point upgrade, and then pepper in whatever to make Assault Terminators more special-snowflakey.
pm713 wrote: The concern I have with making Terminators T5 is what do you do with things like Deathwing Knights who can increase their toughness. T6 termies seems a bit much.
Keep in mind that for Deathwing Knights to get their +1T bonus, they have to essentially put themselves into the stupidest formation you can in 40k... Anything in BtB is nothing more than fodder to templates/blasts.
I just don't feel that T5 helps all flavors of terminators that much, at least not enough to make them viable. Sure, they become largely immune to lasguns, and more resistant to boltguns and shootas, but that's about it. Eldar and Tau still cut through them with their basic small and mid level firepower. Dark Eldar and Nids have tons of ranged poison shots. Plasma still chews through them with relative ease. I just feel that something referred to as Tactical Dreadnaught Armour should have emphasis on extreme durability against anything short of a weapon designed to take down an actual dreadnaught.
pm713 wrote: The concern I have with making Terminators T5 is what do you do with things like Deathwing Knights who can increase their toughness. T6 termies seems a bit much.
They have like NO damage output so does that even matter?
All they need is the changes I proposed earlier. S5 Storm Bolters, two Heavy Weapons per five, and TH/SS become a 5 point upgrade, and then pepper in whatever to make Assault Terminators more special-snowflakey.
I'm not arguing that because it's clear we have very different experiences of the game.
i personally like them as a marine player, i often play orks and once took twenty regular termies and 10 assaults, they formed an indestructible wall of green killing death
It's kind of funny that on one hand lots of people think they are underpowered, and then it's so easy to make other people think "Oh, that'd make them too powerful", when other things in the game are already that powerful!
AegisGrimm wrote: It's kind of funny that on one hand lots of people think they are underpowered, and then it's so easy to make other people think "Oh, that'd make them too powerful", when other things in the game are already that powerful!
General Kroll wrote: Yeah I think it's summed up by the phrase Jack of all trades, master of none.
I love terminators, I love the look, I love the look, and they scare the hell out of me on the table for some godforsaken reason.
I think it's easy to just say they suck, they don't suck, they are still a meaty threatening unit that are hard to kill unless you have the right tools to do so.
But..
The criticisms levelled at them in this thread are all valid. But I don't think, as one poster put it up thread, that the whole game needs to change to make them work. That's frankly ridiculous.
Basically, terminators need a big points reduction, coupled with a buff for the humble Storm bolter. Also give them access to special issue ammunition, and suddenly it's a whole different ball game.
Make the storm bolter salvo 2/4 or even 2/6 and cost 10-15 points, and on a relentless platform where they get it base, it becomes a beast of a weapon, with all sorts of fun ammo options.
Yet on an ordinary mook it's still pretty average.
so you beolieve in a race to the bottom to solve all our problems? perhaps ud like to make power armoured marines free, i hear people dont like paying for things XD
I beolieve that it's a pretty big leap to go from a suggested price reduction to an under used and arguably over costed unit, to suggesting that a standard troop choice should be free.
AegisGrimm wrote: It's kind of funny that on one hand lots of people think they are underpowered, and then it's so easy to make other people think "Oh, that'd make them too powerful", when other things in the game are already that powerful!
People, for some reason, accept GW's power units.
Or think that rather than making everything stronger it's best to mix nerfs and buffs.
AegisGrimm wrote: It's kind of funny that on one hand lots of people think they are underpowered, and then it's so easy to make other people think "Oh, that'd make them too powerful", when other things in the game are already that powerful!
I don't think the solution is to go to the other extreme, is all. That's how a lot of those other power units came to exist, and they are obnoxious as a result.
I'd rather move a unit toward usable by inches than by miles.
I have been playing for about 4 editions now and the only time i thought terminators were good was for a short time when they released assault terminators. i think that if you could take 1 heavy weapon per model they would be competitive. though 35 points a model was a much needed boost.
That said chaos terminators in min squads with combi are not bad. nice distraction.
svengarr wrote: I have been playing for about 4 editions now and the only time i thought terminators were good was for a short time when they released assault terminators. i think that if you could take 1 heavy weapon per model they would be competitive. though 35 points a model was a much needed boost.
That said chaos terminators in min squads with combi are not bad. nice distraction.
Absolutely not! Then we're right back with the exact same obnoxious BS that Scatbikes cause.
2 Heavies in 5 seems a bit on the cheap side of things. Allowing for 2 heavies for simply taking that 6th man at least is fairly balanced & allows 0 room for whining.
That alone would go some distance in at least making Tactical Termies look much more attractive, when they only have to pay an additional 35pts 'tax' instead of a frankly insultingly stupid 175pts tax! (seriously, who the flying ever though THAT was a good idea?!)
+1T to their profile or else innate FnP 4+ AND +1W for the squad Sergeant/Champion would bring Termies much closer to their 'elite walking tank' status.
A fix for Storm Bolters & Combi-Bolters in general is just a no-brainer at this point, as is finally giving all Bolt weapons something like 'Shred' or re-roll 1's to-wound... They're fething explody-grenade-bullets for gak's sake. They're meant to remove large chunks of your average individual's entire body mass when they hit home afterall!
How about they shake things up and make them an actual 1+ armor save? Still fails on a die roll of 1, but only AP'd by actual AP1 weapons like melta, railgun, etc, and not all the AP2 that's out there? Then add FNP to give them a little extra against small arms. Second heavy weapon, slight points adjust, and I think there you're at a pretty decent unit.
Would +1 T in addition to +1 Wound be over the top? Without T5 the anti tank weapons of the game double them out. Without the additional wound they get killed by small arms fire. FNP should be reserved for Command Squads and the like.
Their speed (or lack of) requires them to be tough enough to be able to get to other end of the board with at least half their squad alive.
So like everyone has already discussed, it is the question what is a reasonable amount of firepower to have? Stormbolters are their baseline weapon, it is iconic and something GW won't change out. So we have to look at their upgrades. Having 2 assault cannons in a 5-man squad i snot overpowered. Most Grey Knight players know this as we have literally an assault cannon +1 equivalent AND terminators who have two wounds who can carry 2 psycannons per 5 men. The firepower is not good even then.
2 special weapons per 5 men is good for standard tactical termies. But their durability that must also be increased.
-2k point game.
-vsing Tau
-almost all termie armoured(Captain in termie armour)
-25 termies and captain in reserve
-3 scout squads sitting in 2++ cover
-EVERYTHING lands 1st turn
-nothing mishaps(5 direct hits feth yea!)
-2 assault cannons shoot Riptide
-6 total 6's
-He flunks all 6
-Put two krak missles into the side armour of devilfish
-Roll to hit: 6,6
-Roll to pen: 6,6
-Double Immobolized
-Breachers inside ahve to sit in the naughty corner(by the wreck of devilfish)
-5 man squad with cappy shoot at ethereal in back of fire warrior blob
-Hits everything
-Wound everything
-He flunks 8 LOS -Ethereal dies
-I love my life
-Opponent is lying on the floor dying of laughter
-We shake hands turn 2
-Best friends since
Sgt. Vanden wrote: -2k point game.
-vsing Tau
-almost all termie armoured(Captain in termie armour)
-25 termies and captain in reserve
-3 scout squads sitting in 2++ cover
-EVERYTHING lands 1st turn
-nothing mishaps(5 direct hits feth yea!)
-2 assault cannons shoot Riptide
-6 total 6's
-He flunks all 6
-Put two krak missles into the side armour of devilfish
-Roll to hit: 6,6
-Roll to pen: 6,6
-Double Immobolized
-Breachers inside ahve to sit in the naughty corner(by the wreck of devilfish)
-5 man squad with cappy shoot at ethereal in back of fire warrior blob
-Hits everything
-Wound everything
-He flunks 8 LOS -Ethereal dies
-I love my life
-Opponent is lying on the floor dying of laughter
-We shake hands turn 2
-Best friends since
TERMIES MAKE FRIENDS!
How many children did you sacrifice to the Dice-Lords to get those results, Vanden?
I like the idea of two specials in a 5 man termie squad. Deathwing would be pretty gross on the turn they come in. 2 Twinlinked assault cannons would chew stuff up, especially since they can split fire into two different targets if necessary.
ZergSmasher wrote: I like the idea of two specials in a 5 man termie squad. Deathwing would be pretty gross on the turn they come in. 2 Twinlinked assault cannons would chew stuff up, especially since they can split fire into two different targets if necessary.
The thing is, you need a LOT of S6 to make the most of it. Going from one assault cannon to two assault cannons is really marginal in the scheme of the game.
I agree being able to give all 5 Tactical Terminators AC would hardly be gamebreaking as the range and slow movement of the unit means you can engage them mostly on your terms.
But saying its not good as Eldar doesn't help anyone, because Eldar is the definition of broken.
I get that a points reduction would help terminators be more competitive, but I stubbornly cling to the idea that they are supposed to be some of the most elite Space Marines in the galaxy. Points reductions do work to fix these things, but they continue to contribute to the 'race to the bottom'. I recognize there is a valid concern that, as a game element, they aren't well constructed right now--but I think a worse problem is that they are not only ineffective as a game element, but do a very poor job of representing the fluff and internal consistency of the setting in the game.
'Elite' units get cheaper and cheaper, and new, more expensive, more powerful units get created to be the 'elite' units. Each adjusting of points seems to address the issue at hand, but it contributes towards this continual creep towards meaningless blandness. When Space Marines are hapless fodder, and terminators are ineffectual, the problem isn't their points cost--it's the relation of the rules towards the setting. If Marines (and Terminators in particular) are supposed to be broadly capable, deadly foes, then common, inexpensive units should not be a reliable way of dealing with them. Making Terminators cheaper just masks an underlying issue. We might as well just tell people to "count them as" power armored marines and pay less points!
Unfortunately, I think it would take a recalibration of the rules, as well as a dramatic rejiggering of the points costs to fix that. However, it does lead me to wonder--why is decreasing the points costs of things and increasing their power level seemingly considered so much more acceptable than increasing the points costs or decreasing the power of other units? For example (and I know plasma is not the only problem, by any means, with Terminators), why should terminators be cheaper if plasma is so capable of dealing with them? Why not (as noted by others), decide that Plasma is not capable of easily penetrating TDA, and change the AP of plasma weapons? Why make terminators cheaper (and thus, more common) instead of regarding plasma weapons as delicate, poorly understood artifacts of a prior age, and increasing their cost?
Is it just a matter of what's easiest to change? Entries in a few codices rather than stats across the board? That might be it, but it really seems like a mentality of 'more toys is always better'. I'd much rather have a game where cannon fodder was cannon fodder, and rare and powerful actually meant something, other than just "a good bargain for the points". I do think terminators need work, but I'd be much happier seeing more capable terminators costing more, not less, if they were given the characteristics that should define them.
I get that a points reduction would help terminators be more competitive, but I stubbornly cling to the idea that they are supposed to be some of the most elite Space Marines in the galaxy. Points reductions do work to fix these things, but they continue to contribute to the 'race to the bottom'. I recognize there is a valid concern that, as a game element, they aren't well constructed right now--but I think a worse problem is that they are not only ineffective as a game element, but do a very poor job of representing the fluff and internal consistency of the setting in the game.
'Elite' units get cheaper and cheaper, and new, more expensive, more powerful units get created to be the 'elite' units. Each adjusting of points seems to address the issue at hand, but it contributes towards this continual creep towards meaningless blandness. When Space Marines are hapless fodder, and terminators are ineffectual, the problem isn't their points cost--it's the relation of the rules towards the setting. If Marines (and Terminators in particular) are supposed to be broadly capable, deadly foes, then common, inexpensive units should not be a reliable way of dealing with them. Making Terminators cheaper just masks an underlying issue. We might as well just tell people to "count them as" power armored marines and pay less points!
Unfortunately, I think it would take a recalibration of the rules, as well as a dramatic rejiggering of the points costs to fix that. However, it does lead me to wonder--why is decreasing the points costs of things and increasing their power level seemingly considered so much more acceptable than increasing the points costs or decreasing the power of other units? For example (and I know plasma is not the only problem, by any means, with Terminators), why should terminators be cheaper if plasma is so capable of dealing with them? Why not (as noted by others), decide that Plasma is not capable of easily penetrating TDA, and change the AP of plasma weapons? Why make terminators cheaper (and thus, more common) instead of regarding plasma weapons as delicate, poorly understood artifacts of a prior age, and increasing their cost?
Is it just a matter of what's easiest to change? Entries in a few codices rather than stats across the board? That might be it, but it really seems like a mentality of 'more toys is always better'. I'd much rather have a game where cannon fodder was cannon fodder, and rare and powerful actually meant something, other than just "a good bargain for the points". I do think terminators need work, but I'd be much happier seeing more capable terminators costing more, not less, if they were given the characteristics that should define them.
I think this is sort of a symptom of marines in general being the middle-ground army by which other forces are measured. Marines are popular, and they're often thought of as THE starter army. So on some levels, it makes sense to make them the army with high-average WS/BS/T and a decent armor save. Because of how common they are, I feel like other books get designed with marines in mind. So Tau, being a shooty army, are as shooty as marines and then some. Orks are as choppy as marines and then some. Necrons are as durable as marines and then some. The thing is, marines are kind of meant to be Gary Stu's. Their narrative role is to be the band of action movie protagonists that do way better than logic dictates they should by virtue of plot armor. So while real life factors have caused marines to be okay but not great at shooting and okay but not great at taking a punch, the fluff tells us that a given tactical marine should be one of the shootiest, punchiest, toughest guys on the table.
And I don't mean this in a "Marines are my favorite army, so they should be extra special" kind of way. Tau shoot stuff and cooperate well. Eldar move fast and have potent/specialized gear. Orks are numerous melee-centric. Marines, in that same vein, should be few in number but very good at most things.
Personally, I'd like the average power armor marine to cost something like 25 points but to also be a lot more impressive. For those extra points, I'd love for bolters to be strength five and/or rending, for marines to have some sort of ward save, or for sargeants to have multiple wounds. Their fluff is that they're elite and individually powerful. Their mechanics are that they die slightly slower than carapce armor guardsmen and work best when spammed for free tanks.
1) no more gargantuans, or super heavies outside of apcoalypse, you dont like it too bad
2) bike units and jetbikes need a major price jack, and shooting centric specialists need to have some of their special rules packages and baselines either adjusted or be gutted. theyve grown out of control
3) you need to slow the game down, this will probably need to involve a reworking of the imbalance between shooting and melee (as noted in item 2) and a rebalancing of unit types where some unit types are objectively better then others because of their mechanics. such as jump infantry and jetpack infantry, jetbikes, cavalry, and bikes. formations that encourage shooting would also need to be re-examind ad well as CC patch job formations like the skyhammer annihilation force and shadowstrike killteam this is to make sure its not a totally worthless venture to buy shooting units. in some cases formations may simply be removed entirely.
option step 4) (as this mainly applies to terminator like units in other armies): you then need to go back and start fixing base armies and dropping supplemental things like formations and supplemental rules. in some cases armies could lose whole army supplements from legal use such as farsight enclave and clan raukkan, this would also include things like relics and warlord traits. for example anything granting eternal warriors would probably become very expensive, or any way to make a non troops base unit a troop such as bike marines in codex marines
So what your saying is ramp up the price of everything that can beat terminators to the point where every ary that can has to take them because other viable options are too expensive and slow down a game which based on the average time it takes to play a game at my lgs already takes at least an hour, as well as this you also want to turn an already dodgey rules system on its head
you act like this would be me not playtesting further and making additional changes. 40k as a whole as you stated is an absolutely cluster---- of rules and costs that make no damn sense. adjusting the terminators would then see you going back and asessing the other armies and codecies. and you act like there wouldnt be answers to terminator armour, i assure you that there are more answers then spam bikes/cav/jetbikes and bring gargantuans. people were killing terminators very effectively long before they came around.
and my suggestion is certainly better then overhauling their baselines, slashing costs, and loading up on special special rules like they have bike marines and wulfen and death company you just imbalance and cluster---- the game more.
terminators are a cc unit that needs to get to CC to be productive they are also a slow clumsy unit. if you can agree on that; then you also need to agree that the game is much too fast, much too aggressive for a terminator and that shooting units and big stated massive creatures and shooting specialists have punished the everliving feth out of terminator usage. this is also why orks arent doing well right now on the hole. theyd actually not be a half bad army if there werent stormsurge doomcannons, table travelling in less then 3 turn bikes with more special rules then filing an income tax return, and rules that punish and punish and punish you for trying to lock in close combat with someone unless as you surely must agree have ridiculous special rules packages in which case you become an isolated incident of intended use and design like the shadowstrike killteam.
the only other way you could make terminators work would be to imbalance the game more and just give say the tyranids some really silly rules like "the entire army gets to deploy from the midline instead of normal deployment rules". and other ridiculous stuff like that that basically forces you to accept that cc is a real possibility you need to deal with and expect. but doing that is just a race to the bottom of what army is the most bloody broken. (thought the idea of tyranids turn 2 ccing your entire army does sound rather amusing so id like to see it happen on table one day for the lulz)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sgt. Vanden wrote: My firstborn, secondborn, thirdborn...and most of my old Templars...
thats probably your allotment of good RNG for the year, i recommend you dont play till next year at any tournaments
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I think Terminators should gain a re-rollable armor save and the ability to take two heavy weapons per 5 men.
I've been told before that this makes them simply waaaay too powerful and yet I will have to disagree with that.
1. They were developed as armored suits to withstand working next to plasma reactors originally.
2. By fluff they are the most powerful suit of armor a Space Marine can wear, enhancing his strength and toughness even far more than standard marine power armor does. They are supposed to be walking tanks almost.
3. My suggestion of a re-rollable armor save (not their invuln) keeps it so that lesser weapons will have a hell of a time shooting through their tank-like armor, but weapons that are ap2 or 1 will still cut through them like a hot knife through butter.
4. People can whine all they want about this, but there are still TONS of ap2 and ap1 weapons in the game that can be brought to bear against Terminators like these.
5. I don't believe just adding 1 point of toughness fixes their situation enough. There are still plenty of weapons capable of harming you on a 2 or better.
6. I had considered extra wounds but after playing GK and some 30k Termies with 2 wounds each I will say it was a slight headache having to put dice counters around my guys to try and make sure I remember which guy took a wound already out of my squad of 5 or more.
Quickjager wrote: the anti tank weapons of the game double them out.
ROFLOL. you don't consider it a bonus to using terminators that the only real answer to terminators is to use AT weapons against your infantry? If GW doesn't do a third edition in eighth to deescalate the game, perhaps they could add a rule to the general rulebook that allows terminator armor to assault after a teleport move. . . then all of a sudden they are all Nightcrawler in X-men 2 (without Stryker).
Quickjager wrote: the anti tank weapons of the game double them out.
ROFLOL. you don't consider it a bonus to using terminators that the only real answer to terminators is to use AT weapons against your infantry? If GW doesn't do a third edition in eighth to deescalate the game, perhaps they could add a rule to the general rulebook that allows terminator armor to assault after a teleport move. . . then all of a sudden they are all Nightcrawler in X-men 2 (without Stryker).
If nightcrawler couldn't teleport again after he blew his first load and if nightcrawler moved like the blob afterwards, then yea, I guess you'd be right.
Terminators, across armies, I think should just be t5 and 2 wounds. For loyalists the storm bolter has to be fixed but in general these things are walking tanks and should at least reflect that.
Quickjager wrote: the anti tank weapons of the game double them out.
ROFLOL. you don't consider it a bonus to using terminators that the only real answer to terminators is to use AT weapons against your infantry? If GW doesn't do a third edition in eighth to deescalate the game, perhaps they could add a rule to the general rulebook that allows terminator armor to assault after a teleport move. . . then all of a sudden they are all Nightcrawler in X-men 2 (without Stryker).
Not when that infantry costs more than a lot of tanks....
There's a lot of good ideas here, all of which basically boil down to "let termies catch up with the power creep" I honestly think terminators became a moot point the moment Centurions were released. Seriously Centurions fill the same role as terminators and fill it better. And, sadly, I don't think there's a way to differentiate the 2 enough that it warrants keeping both of them around.
Terminators were made to be a deepstriking CC threat. Assault centurions are pretty terrible if they don't swing first. Heck even then they'll probably only do 2 or 3 wounds. Only really a big deal against armor and fortifications.
2 Heavies in 5 seems a bit on the cheap side of things
As someone playing an army who's sole claim to fame was having 2 heavies per 5 Terminators when others couldn't: it's not. Not at all.
How can anyone think that it's too efficient to have two S6 ROF 4 rending guns in a 200+ pt squad with only 5 wounds to give? This is 7th ed. Who is even scared of 8 S6 shots after experiencing Tau or Eldar?
2 Heavies in 5 seems a bit on the cheap side of things
As someone playing an army who's sole claim to fame was having 2 heavies per 5 Terminators when others couldn't: it's not. Not at all.
How can anyone think that it's too efficient to have two S6 ROF 4 rending guns in a 200+ pt squad with only 5 wounds to give? This is 7th ed. Who is even scared of 8 S6 shots after experiencing Tau or Eldar?
Anyone who is not playing against Tau and Eldar, and was hoping that, for one, they aren't going to get shot
svengarr wrote: I have been playing for about 4 editions now and the only time i thought terminators were good was for a short time when they released assault terminators. i think that if you could take 1 heavy weapon per model they would be competitive. though 35 points a model was a much needed boost.
That said chaos terminators in min squads with combi are not bad. nice distraction.
Absolutely not! Then we're right back with the exact same obnoxious BS that Scatbikes cause.
2 Heavies in 5 seems a bit on the cheap side of things. Allowing for 2 heavies for simply taking that 6th man at least is fairly balanced & allows 0 room for whining.
That alone would go some distance in at least making Tactical Termies look much more attractive, when they only have to pay an additional 35pts 'tax' instead of a frankly insultingly stupid 175pts tax! (seriously, who the flying ever though THAT was a good idea?!)
+1T to their profile or else innate FnP 4+ AND +1W for the squad Sergeant/Champion would bring Termies much closer to their 'elite walking tank' status.
A fix for Storm Bolters & Combi-Bolters in general is just a no-brainer at this point, as is finally giving all Bolt weapons something like 'Shred' or re-roll 1's to-wound... They're fething explody-grenade-bullets for gak's sake. They're meant to remove large chunks of your average individual's entire body mass when they hit home afterall!
Yeah, the 1 special weapon per 5 soldiers rule always baffled me. Why is that? It makes no sense.
Why impose such an arbitrary condition? Is having 2 or even 3 special weapons in a 5 man squad such a big deal?
2 Heavies in 5 seems a bit on the cheap side of things
As someone playing an army who's sole claim to fame was having 2 heavies per 5 Terminators when others couldn't: it's not. Not at all.
Which army was this?
Black Templars during 5th. Being stuck with a 4th edition Codex had the perk of allowing us to have 2 heavy weapons with only 5 Terminators.
But that was also when Termies themselves were 40pts a pop - more if you then gave the Tank Hunters to turn those Assault cannons into better Lascannons vs. vehicles.
Really, I'd prefer to see Termies drop to 30pts a pop. At that point, for a squad of 6 w/2x cannons, you're looking at 240pts total.
That's iirc, the same pts cost as what 5 w/2x A.cannons cost back in 4th, so you're essentially getting a 'free' additional wound.
Besides, I'd much rather see the handful of obnoxious power books, (Eldar & Tau), brought back down a little bit, and other glaring fixes such as the Grav cannon issues be addressed, rather than ramping everything under the sun up to insane levels.
If things like Scatbikes & a re-worked grav rule were put in place, it would also go a decent way to make Termies in general more viable again.
2 Heavies in 5 seems a bit on the cheap side of things
As someone playing an army who's sole claim to fame was having 2 heavies per 5 Terminators when others couldn't: it's not. Not at all.
Which army was this?
Black Templars during 5th. Being stuck with a 4th edition Codex had the perk of allowing us to have 2 heavy weapons with only 5 Terminators.
But that was also when Termies themselves were 40pts a pop - more if you then gave the Tank Hunters to turn those Assault cannons into better Lascannons vs. vehicles.
Really, I'd prefer to see Termies drop to 30pts a pop. At that point, for a squad of 6 w/2x cannons, you're looking at 240pts total.
That's iirc, the same pts cost as what 5 w/2x A.cannons cost back in 4th, so you're essentially getting a 'free' additional wound.
Besides, I'd much rather see the handful of obnoxious power books, (Eldar & Tau), brought back down a little bit, and other glaring fixes such as the Grav cannon issues be addressed, rather than ramping everything under the sun up to insane levels.
If things like Scatbikes & a re-worked grav rule were put in place, it would also go a decent way to make Termies in general more viable again.
Martel732 wrote: No, loyalist terminators have never been viable. Armor save modifiers killed them in 2nd, and plasma being AP 2 killed them in 3rd ed on.
Nerfing Eldar and Tau will not fix the terminator at all. They're not viable against things like TACTICAL squads.
4th edition was filled to the brim with Tank Hunting twin-asscan Termies.
5th edition was choke full of 3++ Hammernators.
Terminators desperately need help, but they've also had a couple of favourable editions they've exploited as well.
Martel732 wrote: No, loyalist terminators have never been viable. Armor save modifiers killed them in 2nd, and plasma being AP 2 killed them in 3rd ed on.
Nerfing Eldar and Tau will not fix the terminator at all. They're not viable against things like TACTICAL squads.
Didn't Space Wolves have that silly "Imma fire all my Vortex Missiles in one turn!" thing back in 2nd?
EDIT: I'm not sure that 250 points would be fair for a Terminator Squad with 2 Assault Cannons, even with an extra wound. 8 S6 shots at 215 points, which it'd be if we just let the current ones take an extra Assault Cannon, does not seem over the top to me. A squad of Havocs with Reaper Autocannons have similar damage output (longer range and higher strength vs. rending) while being cheaper, but lose out in durability, but it's not like autocannon Havocs are dominating the field.
Martel732 wrote: No, loyalist terminators have never been viable. Armor save modifiers killed them in 2nd, and plasma being AP 2 killed them in 3rd ed on.
Nerfing Eldar and Tau will not fix the terminator at all. They're not viable against things like TACTICAL squads.
Didn't Space Wolves have that silly "Imma fire all my Vortex Missiles in one turn!" thing back in 2nd?
Krak missiles? Yes. But it still sucked compared to what CSM had. And Eldar. And Tyranids.
Martel732 wrote: No, loyalist terminators have never been viable. Armor save modifiers killed them in 2nd, and plasma being AP 2 killed them in 3rd ed on.
Nerfing Eldar and Tau will not fix the terminator at all. They're not viable against things like TACTICAL squads.
4th edition was filled to the brim with Tank Hunting twin-asscan Termies.
5th edition was choke full of 3++ Hammernators.
Terminators desperately need help, but they've also had a couple of favourable editions they've exploited as well.
5th 3++ terminators were not an issue in my experience. Too slow to be a threat.
Martel732 wrote: No, loyalist terminators have never been viable. Armor save modifiers killed them in 2nd, and plasma being AP 2 killed them in 3rd ed on.
Nerfing Eldar and Tau will not fix the terminator at all. They're not viable against things like TACTICAL squads.
Didn't Space Wolves have that silly "Imma fire all my Vortex Missiles in one turn!" thing back in 2nd?
EDIT: I'm not sure that 250 points would be fair for a Terminator Squad with 2 Assault Cannons, even with an extra wound. 8 S6 shots at 215 points, which it'd be if we just let the current ones take an extra Assault Cannon, does not seem over the top to me. A squad of Havocs with Reaper Autocannons have similar damage output (longer range and higher strength vs. rending) while being cheaper, but lose out in durability, but it's not like autocannon Havocs are dominating the field.
Havocs only get regular Autocannons - not the twin-linked kind that Termies get.
Also, while the autocannon gains +1S + double the range, and a unit of Havocs puts out the same amount of shooting as two assault cannons, they're also forced to stay entirely static in order to be even remotely effective.
Meanwhile, Termies get an effective 30" range, are more mobile without sacrificing all accuracy, and have Rending which easily beats out the +1S of the autocannon.
Not saying that Autocannon Havocs are trash, (they not, just plainly average), but the Termies functionally have a lot more going for them, assuming a proposed price drop & lack or idiotic tax on their second gun.
Best armor in the imperium? Lets make the unit T4 with one wound!
Make them two wound. Make them T5. And do not ffs up the.point value.
Anyone who uses nurgle termies knows they work, but cost an ergegious amount of points.
Look at oblits, two wounds. Work freaking great. Nurgle oblits? Giant pain in the ass for everyone. Centurians do not even have an invuln.....t5 with two wounds.
Make them an anti infantry cheaper option to the shooty big boys and voila, fixed um for yah.
Martel732 wrote: No, loyalist terminators have never been viable. Armor save modifiers killed them in 2nd, and plasma being AP 2 killed them in 3rd ed on.
Nerfing Eldar and Tau will not fix the terminator at all. They're not viable against things like TACTICAL squads.
Didn't Space Wolves have that silly "Imma fire all my Vortex Missiles in one turn!" thing back in 2nd?
EDIT: I'm not sure that 250 points would be fair for a Terminator Squad with 2 Assault Cannons, even with an extra wound. 8 S6 shots at 215 points, which it'd be if we just let the current ones take an extra Assault Cannon, does not seem over the top to me. A squad of Havocs with Reaper Autocannons have similar damage output (longer range and higher strength vs. rending) while being cheaper, but lose out in durability, but it's not like autocannon Havocs are dominating the field.
Havocs only get regular Autocannons - not the twin-linked kind that Termies get.
Also, while the autocannon gains +1S + double the range, and a unit of Havocs puts out the same amount of shooting as two assault cannons, they're also forced to stay entirely static in order to be even remotely effective.
Meanwhile, Termies get an effective 30" range, are more mobile without sacrificing all accuracy, and have Rending which easily beats out the +1S of the autocannon.
Not saying that Autocannon Havocs are trash, (they not, just plainly average), but the Termies functionally have a lot more going for them, assuming a proposed price drop & lack or idiotic tax on their second gun.
Not really. For a little over the price of a Terminator squad carrying a single Assault Cannon, you get two Havoc squads with Autocannons.
Two Assault Cannons in the same unit is NOT going to break anything, not even close.
Look at it like this:
Loyalist Assault Terminators at base are 175. With the same loadout and with MoS your Chaos ones are nearing 40 a pop. The only thing you're doing better is charging T4 3+ outside of cover for the points. THEN you look at the benefits Loyalists get, and then you realize how silly your statement sounds.
C'mon dude, can't you see what he is saying? Internal balance=/=external balance, Chaos don't have the same options as Loyalists hence units are priced differently based on the role they play within an army. You shouldn't compare unit to unit between codexes without looking extensively at the rest of the list. Chaos have little access to 2+ Sv's, making the 2+ svs they DO get a little more expensive, probably not what they deserve but you can understand the logic behind the decision. Chaos Terminators also start off cheaper than Loyalists therefore pay more to be upgraded to a similar level. It's the same concept behind Fantasy's Tomb Guard vs Grave Guard, very similar units but Tomb Guard are more expensive because the TK army syngerised better with them.
Also MoS terminators are better then loyalist terminators if both have Lightning Claws against I4 opponents, which is statistically a large category. So there is that.
Whilst I appreciate the sentiment, there's no point trying to convince people who have already dug their own holes for their own graves so to say.
Whilst I agree that the CSM has a hand now and needs a drastic overhaul (would love some NL legion tactics and plastic Dreadclaws ), it still does not dictate that we still have a hand until then.
Ultimately people can be blue in the face about math to me and I could not give a care less. They have a role, I made that role and I made that role good in my area and that is all I care about.
In short the internet does not know your area and therefore can only grasp at math as their straws because that's all they have.
People can spite, bubble and toil all they like, meanwhile I will be breaking Decurions as I have done with that unit because I understand that CSM does not play survivability but plays the quantity is its own quality/ overwhelm target priority faction very well (just like Orks as I have found out ) and not the untouchable units that will wreck face as the internet so desperately craves for every unit in their book alone .
Terminators suffer the same problems as Meganobz, They are USELESS in about 90% of scenarios and only fit a single role inside an army. They are designed to go kill really expensive things that are vulnerable to there S8 Power Fists/Power Klaws. The problem with them is that other units inside both armies are just as capable of doing that job but for cheaper or with more flexibility.
I have a single unit of Meganobz because for significantly less points I can use a boyz squad with a Nob PK and get the job done, while at the same time being more durable and having a bigger threat/impact on the game.
The reason why is because in previous editions AP2 and mass firepower was RARE, but 4th edition and onward it became more and more common, at this point its easy for an army to grab a bunch of AP1-2 weapons that make having Terminators useless, or if they can't bring AP 1-2 weapons they can bring a bunch of weapons that put out a terribfic amount of shots and drown the terminators/Mega Nobz in weight of fire.
Look at it like this:
Loyalist Assault Terminators at base are 175. With the same loadout and with MoS your Chaos ones are nearing 40 a pop. The only thing you're doing better is charging T4 3+ outside of cover for the points. THEN you look at the benefits Loyalists get, and then you realize how silly your statement sounds.
C'mon dude, can't you see what he is saying? Internal balance=/=external balance, Chaos don't have the same options as Loyalists hence units are priced differently based on the role they play within an army. You shouldn't compare unit to unit between codexes without looking extensively at the rest of the list. Chaos have little access to 2+ Sv's, making the 2+ svs they DO get a little more expensive, probably not what they deserve but you can understand the logic behind the decision. Chaos Terminators also start off cheaper than Loyalists therefore pay more to be upgraded to a similar level. It's the same concept behind Fantasy's Tomb Guard vs Grave Guard, very similar units but Tomb Guard are more expensive because the TK army syngerised better with them.
Also MoS terminators are better then loyalist terminators if both have Lightning Claws against I4 opponents, which is statistically a large category. So there is that.
Whilst I appreciate the sentiment, there's no point trying to convince people who have already dug their own holes for their own graves so to say.
Whilst I agree that the CSM has a hand now and needs a drastic overhaul (would love some NL legion tactics and plastic Dreadclaws ), it still does not dictate that we still have a hand until then.
Ultimately people can be blue in the face about math to me and I could not give a care less. They have a role, I made that role and I made that role good in my area and that is all I care about.
In short the internet does not know your area and therefore can only grasp at math as their straws because that's all they have.
People can spite, bubble and toil all they like, meanwhile I will be breaking Decurions as I have done with that unit because I understand that CSM does not play survivability but plays the quantity is its own quality/ overwhelm target priority faction very well (just like Orks as I have found out ) and not the untouchable units that will wreck face as the internet so desperately craves for every unit in their book alone .
Ah. Yes. You're clearly the chosen one and the only person on the Internet to claim such a discovery, and it is why CSM's and Terminators in general are simply wrecking face at tournaments all over the globe!
For the record, MoSLC Terminators only perform better in that situation when the target isn't in cover, in which case, the unit costing more is performing exactly the same as the Loyalist counterpart.
Martel732 wrote: No, loyalist terminators have never been viable. Armor save modifiers killed them in 2nd, and plasma being AP 2 killed them in 3rd ed on.
I agree, except regarding 2nd edition. 3+ save on 2D6 made them very hard to being down even with modifiers, unless you were pumping lascannon shots into them. It's curious you should say that -they proved very resiliant in any game I played them in in 2nd ed. I particularly recall an incident where a single hammernator went on a a 20 killing spree against orks and gretchin.
If you run deep strike shooty nators, then there isnt much you cant kill in one turn. Sure, they might die the next turn, but hey, if you can kill a stormsurge in the process its worth it.
Martel732 wrote: No, loyalist terminators have never been viable. Armor save modifiers killed them in 2nd, and plasma being AP 2 killed them in 3rd ed on.
I agree, except regarding 2nd edition. 3+ save on 2D6 made them very hard to being down even with modifiers, unless you were pumping lascannon shots into them. It's curious you should say that -they proved very resiliant in any game I played them in in 2nd ed. I particularly recall an incident where a single hammernator went on a a 20 killing spree against orks and gretchin.
Anything with a -3 save modifier or greater was very lethal to them. Shuriken cannons being one of the main culprits. They died quickly every game I saw them in.
IIRC 2nd ed had some funky target priority rules where you could stick cheap, fast units in the open close to enemy units and they would be forced to shoot at that?
Sgt. Vanden wrote: If you run deep strike shooty nators, then there isnt much you cant kill in one turn. Sure, they might die the next turn, but hey, if you can kill a stormsurge in the process its worth it.
This confuses me, because you're paying Terminator tax on a suicide unit whose role is better filled by Sternguard in pretty much every aspect, including points.
Both can take Heavy flamers, terminators don't have access to Combi-weapons, melta-weapons, plasmaguns, grav-guns, meltabombs, grenades, droppod deepstrike security (i've seen more terminators killed by razorwire then should be possible), or special ammo.
Yeah they get assault cannons and cyclone missile launchers, which means, at max, only 2 of the models are doing anything of value while the other 8 are plinking away with stormbolters. And to even get a second special weapon, you are mandated to pay out ANOTHER 175 points for 5 more useless gits! A cheaper maxed unit of sternguard are infinitely better, and all 10 members are useful.
That Terminators suicide squad just cost you 400 points (10 guys, 2 upgrades).
That Sternguard squad cost you 320 points (355 with DP), with 10 guys, all armed with combi weapons.
Hell, a bare-bones Sternguard unit comes in at 220pts and will kill everything -expect- AV11 or higher. Stick in two meltaguns for 20 pts and you can deal with anything.
Martel732 wrote: No, loyalist terminators have never been viable. Armor save modifiers killed them in 2nd, and plasma being AP 2 killed them in 3rd ed on.
I agree, except regarding 2nd edition. 3+ save on 2D6 made them very hard to being down even with modifiers, unless you were pumping lascannon shots into them. It's curious you should say that -they proved very resiliant in any game I played them in in 2nd ed. I particularly recall an incident where a single hammernator went on a a 20 killing spree against orks and gretchin.
What they did have in 2nd was a method for getting into the enemies face reliably which was both valuable and rare.
nareik wrote: IIRC 2nd ed had some funky target priority rules where you could stick cheap, fast units in the open close to enemy units and they would be forced to shoot at that?
nareik wrote: IIRC 2nd ed had some funky target priority rules where you could stick cheap, fast units in the open close to enemy units and they would be forced to shoot at that?
Yes, you had to shoot the closest thing.
Trying to recall...did you have the choice between targeting the closest squad OR the closest vehicle?
thepowerfulwill wrote: So maybe it's because I've been out of the game for a while and the metas changed, but no one seems to bring termies to the table anymore and people rip them open online, wondering what's with the changes adittude towards the bulky marines?
It's a matter of point cost.
GW seems to think that something with a 2+/5++ save, a storm bolter, 2 attacks, and a power fist is still an amazing unit worth 35 points.
The problem is they don't have the damage output to justify those points. Lets look at a sample terminator army.
1st Company Task Force Alpha 6 Terminators w/Cyclone ML 6 Terminators w/Cyclone ML 6 Terminators w/Cyclone ML
1st Company Task Force Beta 5 Terminators w/Cyclone ML 5 Terminators w/Cyclone ML 5 Terminators w/Cyclone ML 5 Terminators w/Cyclone ML
The entire army has 41 terminators on the table. I would either take Imperial Fists or Iron Hands to increase their damage output. White scars librarians would give you some hit and run options as well.
With the Task Force benefits, you could get a lot of leverage with 'psychic scream' form your librarians. The Extremis Level Threat would also help your units punch down a wraithknight that got to close.
The army throws out 81 bolter dice a turn, and has 14 MLs a turn to shoot as well. It's MSU to it can hit multiple targets.
But there are some big flaws with this. Firstly, 41 terminators is just not that durable. In a game filled with scat bikes, warp spiders, wraithknights, stormsurges, and riptide spam -- killing 41 2+ models is not that hard. It won't happen in one turn, but it will happen over the course of a game. It's the reason you don't see armies of 80 marines anymore.
Secondly, the range is low. Sure, 24" seems great at first, but the reality is that you won't be able to focus your firepower where you need it to be to score kills without seriously bunching up your units. You might be able to deep strike 1-2 squads to help with this issue.
Finally, there are threats that will just wipe the army off the board. Wraithknights will give endless problems. Dual Stormsurges will just rush in and stomp the army to death. "But I have 10 STR 8, AP2 attacks per squad". The 2 stormsurges don't care. Hitting in 3's and wounding on 2's is a lot less effective when there is a 4++ and 5+ FNP added.
(2/3 to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * (1/2 failed save) * (2/3 failed FNP) = 5/27 chance to wound per attack. (~18%)
That means all 10 attacks will do ~2 wounds before the stormsurges start stomping the terminators to death. That is assuming the stormsurges don't just sit stationary and use their superior firepower to wipe the terminators.
How could GW fix this? Giving terminators a 5+ FNP would help greatly.
Making stomp not 'remove model from play' on the roll of a 6 would help greatly. Then the terminators could whittle down the stormsurge.
Letting all terminators start arriving from deep strike on turn 1 would help greatly.
nareik wrote: IIRC 2nd ed had some funky target priority rules where you could stick cheap, fast units in the open close to enemy units and they would be forced to shoot at that?
Yes, you had to shoot the closest thing.
Trying to recall...did you have the choice between targeting the closest squad OR the closest vehicle?
Models were grouped into several sizes, regular infantry, bigger stuff like dreads/tyranid warriors, and then vehicles. Had to shoot the closest or pick from another category. Vehicles were insanely durable compared with today.
Look at it like this:
Loyalist Assault Terminators at base are 175. With the same loadout and with MoS your Chaos ones are nearing 40 a pop. The only thing you're doing better is charging T4 3+ outside of cover for the points. THEN you look at the benefits Loyalists get, and then you realize how silly your statement sounds.
C'mon dude, can't you see what he is saying? Internal balance=/=external balance, Chaos don't have the same options as Loyalists hence units are priced differently based on the role they play within an army. You shouldn't compare unit to unit between codexes without looking extensively at the rest of the list. Chaos have little access to 2+ Sv's, making the 2+ svs they DO get a little more expensive, probably not what they deserve but you can understand the logic behind the decision. Chaos Terminators also start off cheaper than Loyalists therefore pay more to be upgraded to a similar level. It's the same concept behind Fantasy's Tomb Guard vs Grave Guard, very similar units but Tomb Guard are more expensive because the TK army syngerised better with them.
Also MoS terminators are better then loyalist terminators if both have Lightning Claws against I4 opponents, which is statistically a large category. So there is that.
Whilst I appreciate the sentiment, there's no point trying to convince people who have already dug their own holes for their own graves so to say.
Whilst I agree that the CSM has a hand now and needs a drastic overhaul (would love some NL legion tactics and plastic Dreadclaws ), it still does not dictate that we still have a hand until then.
Ultimately people can be blue in the face about math to me and I could not give a care less. They have a role, I made that role and I made that role good in my area and that is all I care about.
In short the internet does not know your area and therefore can only grasp at math as their straws because that's all they have.
People can spite, bubble and toil all they like, meanwhile I will be breaking Decurions as I have done with that unit because I understand that CSM does not play survivability but plays the quantity is its own quality/ overwhelm target priority faction very well (just like Orks as I have found out ) and not the untouchable units that will wreck face as the internet so desperately craves for every unit in their book alone .
Ah. Yes. You're clearly the chosen one and the only person on the Internet to claim such a discovery, and it is why CSM's and Terminators in general are simply wrecking face at tournaments all over the globe!
For the record, MoSLC Terminators only perform better in that situation when the target isn't in cover, in which case, the unit costing more is performing exactly the same as the Loyalist counterpart.
Yes. Because everything must be compared to far distant tournaments which is most likely not your area, and sure as hell ain't mine.
For the record, if your talking about tourneys then just play Eldar because that's clearly all the internet knows and craves tourney standard-wise
I'm not Sun Su, but I know by well what the CSM book has to offer and what it can pull off. If your just going to say why no one should be playing terminators because X tourneys says so then don't bother playing any form of marines at all and just play Eldar netlists X, Y and Z. But thanks for twisting my words to extreme lengths for pulling straws with passive aggressive attacks
Part of the problem seems to be that the scale of the game is out of whack and part seems to be that terminators are sold as generalist elite infantry instead of very specialised units. They seem customised for clearing out tunnels and punching their way through walls in places with extremely limited space rather than wide open battlefields.
Sgt. Vanden wrote: If you run deep strike shooty nators, then there isnt much you cant kill in one turn. Sure, they might die the next turn, but hey, if you can kill a stormsurge in the process its worth it.
How are tactical terminators killing a stormsurge in one turn, even with a heavy weapon (or two for that matter)???
MarsNZ wrote: Models were grouped into several sizes, regular infantry, bigger stuff like dreads/tyranid warriors, and then vehicles. Had to shoot the closest or pick from another category.
For my money, the big problem with Terminators (and indeed all expensive elite infantry) is that the type of firepower you'd take to clear out hordes is also effective against them precisely because of how expensive they are. If the same firepower you'd apply to killing 8 Guardsmen will also kill 1 Terminator with statistical reliability, then there's no reason not to take that type of firepower over firepower that will, say, kill 1 Terminator with statistical reliability but only kill 1-2 Guardsmen.
The easiest fix without fundamental rules changes would be to simply make Terminators 2-wound models. They are in general supposed to be the most elite units in their respective factions, and that's a fairly common mechanic for elite units in other factions. I don't mind the fact they'd be insta-killed by lascannons and the like because in general such weapons are not really the bane of Terminators. What is the bane is high-volume shooting that inflicts so many wounds that you're bound to fail some of those armor saves.
The problem with making Terminators 2-wound models, however, is that GW would have to change unit entries in a hojillion different codexes. Releasing an errata would be sufficient until dexes get updated, but we all know how recalcitrant GW is to errata things. Another idea would be to alter armor saves so they get to be rerolled against any wounds whose AP is, say, at least +2 what the target's save value is. So, 2+ save figures would get to reroll vs AP4 or higher, 3+ save figures would get to reroll vs AP5 or higher, and so on. It would make high-volume fire less effective against elite units, and require players to make some tactical choices rather than just being able to rely on high-volume fire for all occasions. I think this would work because I have a unit that has Terminator cost but gives the appropriate value for the points I pay - Ravenwing Knights, who can reroll their 3+ Jink save (they have Skilled Riders), and can get up to a 2+ with proximity to a Dark Shroud. I have to worry about Ignores Cover weapons, but short of that they give me an appropriate amount of bang for their buck.
The problem with making Terminators 2-wound models, however, is that GW would have to change unit entries in a hojillion different codexes. Releasing an errata would be sufficient until dexes get updated, but we all know how recalcitrant GW is to errata things. Another idea would be to alter armor saves so they get to be rerolled against any wounds whose AP is, say, at least +2 what the target's save value is. So, 2+ save figures would get to reroll vs AP4 or higher, 3+ save figures would get to reroll vs AP5 or higher, and so on. It would make high-volume fire less effective against elite units, and require players to make some tactical choices rather than just being able to rely on high-volume fire for all occasions. I think this would work because I have a unit that has Terminator cost but gives the appropriate value for the points I pay - Ravenwing Knights, who can reroll their 3+ Jink save (they have Skilled Riders), and can get up to a 2+ with proximity to a Dark Shroud. I have to worry about Ignores Cover weapons, but short of that they give me an appropriate amount of bang for their buck.
A good FNP roll would accomplish the same effect as rerolling based on AP. FNP is essentially a reroll on the save that is negated by high strength (aka, AT) attacks. Thing is, how good should that FNP roll be? 3+ FNP is too good without a points increase, but 4+ FNP would fit with their current points cost, and it keeps them different enough from Centurions. It would also help against rending and lower strength AP2.
Its also an easy fix to implement. A single errata or even WD article stating that ALL models wearing terminator armour now have FNP 4+. No points changes, no lengthy rules, no stat changes, just a simple blanket statement using an existing USR. It serves the purpose of making them largely immune to most forms of small arms fire, enhances durability against small arms specialized weaponry (plasma and grav for example), while true anti-tank weaponry negates much of their durability (leaving only the invulnerable save).
A good FNP roll would accomplish the same effect as rerolling based on AP. FNP is essentially a reroll on the save that is negated by high strength (aka, AT) attacks. Thing is, how good should that FNP roll be? 3+ FNP is too good without a points increase, but 4+ FNP would fit with their current points cost, and it keeps them different enough from Centurions. It would also help against rending and lower strength AP2.
Its also an easy fix to implement. A single errata or even WD article stating that ALL models wearing terminator armour now have FNP 4+. No points changes, no lengthy rules, no stat changes, just a simple blanket statement using an existing USR. It serves the purpose of making them largely immune to most forms of small arms fire, enhances durability against small arms specialized weaponry (plasma and grav for example), while true anti-tank weaponry negates much of their durability (leaving only the invulnerable save).
Excellent idea. In fact, probably the best suggestion I've seen on the many threads that have discussed this.
One problem with FNP over armour reroll is that the terminators won't benefit from being joined by apothecaries... but I guess that can be fluff handwaved away as the life support/medical systems in TDA being just that darn good?
The problem with terminators is no sweeping advance and gakky weapons. I can buy one special weapon per 5 if they were better choices. The storm bolter needs a serious buff. Comparing to the Skitarii vanguards radium carbine (only other codex I have on hand) your trading 6" of range for -1s same ap, super rending (to wound roll of 6 causes 2 wounds regardless of toughness) and one extra shot.
That's a basic weapon for a basic and very cheap troop choice. Storm bolter, the basic weapon for an elite troop choice should be better. Imo make the storm bolter assault 4. It doesn't need some stupid special rule but termmies suffer from being low model counts so having more shots would significantly even the balance.
Terminators who are relentless not being able to sweeping advance makes no sense. In fluff these guys plow through enemies non stop, and charge through walls like they're paper. But in game these relentless cc specialists win combat and go "okay guys time to...relent on our enemies"
Assault 4 storm bolter, sweeping assault, let termmies take better weapons like lascanons, grav weapons, plasma rifles/cannons and they'll make a comeback
ClassicCarraway wrote: Its also an easy fix to implement. A single errata or even WD article stating that ALL models wearing terminator armour now have FNP 4+. No points changes, no lengthy rules, no stat changes, just a simple blanket statement using an existing USR. It serves the purpose of making them largely immune to most forms of small arms fire, enhances durability against small arms specialized weaponry (plasma and grav for example), while true anti-tank weaponry negates much of their durability (leaving only the invulnerable save).
So Iron Hands get 3+ FNP on their terminators, and all their characters can essentially count on 2+ with a warlord trait? Sure, this would work in the sense of making them ridiculous like everything else. 40K is broken as far as I'm concerned, it's only route now is to go into a AoS style system where everything is crazy.
If you want to use terminators, I would suggest playing 30K. With the increased cost of basic troops, they aren't as obnoxiously overpriced, and the overall power level of the game is lower, so there are no crazy Xenos hijinks. You also get two different varieties with better rules (Cataphracts get 4++ but can't overwatch or run; Tartaros can sweep after close combats, which is major in 30K as well).
In a D10 system, terminators could still be 2+, but make every blast in the game AP 3 or worse. You have to direct fire them down then. That's the only fix I see, which requires a complete rewrite. And make plasma AP 3 under such a system as well.
I don't think you guys truly understand the scale of the buff you want. Had terminator armor provide T5 and another wound, they would be overpower already.
Terminators don't need quite as much as you think. They just need to downgrade their weapons.
According to CSM a power fist terminator is 7 points over a power weapon terminator. Can you really not see 28 point tactical terminators with power weapons instead of fists being valuable?
Their main problem is that you don't need so many power fists. And the current codex forces it.
BoomWolf wrote: I don't think you guys truly understand the scale of the buff you want. Had terminator armor provide T5 and another wound, they would be overpower already.
Terminators don't need quite as much as you think. They just need to downgrade their weapons.
According to CSM a power fist terminator is 7 points over a power weapon terminator. Can you really not see 28 point tactical terminators with power weapons instead of fists being valuable?
Their main problem is that you don't need so many power fists. And the current codex forces it.
Well I never thought a downgrade would actually improve them. But you are correct. By simply removing the PF and allowing them to attack at initiative would be a pretty significant upgrade. Of course it would only be worth it with an appropriate points reduction.
I played a game yesterday where I (CSM) took 5 terminators and deep striked them against a riptide. They had MoN so that had that nice T5, but against Tau it didn't help a whole lot. Riptides can intercept DS units, I was lucky and none of his shots landed, but even with combi-meltas I barely did any damage and was destroyed in his shoot phase the next round...... however my next turn I charged him with 15 CCW cultists and destroyed that riptide, so I guess the termies were an expensive distraction.
sturgeondtd wrote: I played a game yesterday where I (CSM) took 5 terminators and deep striked them against a riptide. They had MoN so that had that nice T5, but against Tau it didn't help a whole lot. Riptides can intercept DS units, I was lucky and none of his shots landed, but even with combi-meltas I barely did any damage and was destroyed in his shoot phase the next round...... however my next turn I charged him with 15 CCW cultists and destroyed that riptide, so I guess the termies were an expensive distraction.
How did they hurt it? I've charged those things with 10 DC before and lost. They are truly immortal.
BoomWolf wrote: I don't think you guys truly understand the scale of the buff you want. Had terminator armor provide T5 and another wound, they would be overpower already.
Terminators don't need quite as much as you think. They just need to downgrade their weapons.
According to CSM a power fist terminator is 7 points over a power weapon terminator. Can you really not see 28 point tactical terminators with power weapons instead of fists being valuable?
Their main problem is that you don't need so many power fists. And the current codex forces it.
While I agree some of the wish listing is a bit OTT, are you really claiming nurgle mutilators / obliterators are over powered, or are you assuming no points increase for the upgrade?
Shred might be a good compromise. But only for the ones on terminators, due to their extra ammo capacity. Or, alternative, take away their storm bolters and give them a different weapon.
In response to Martel732, the gods must be crazy as the riptide had 3 HP left and way more dice hit than should have and he failed a lot of saves.
But back on topic, I think terminators need 2 wounds and immune to instant death or an invuln save at 3+ to be viable, especially for their price in the chaos codex. You would think termies would truly be VotLW and not die so easily against anything better than a bolter.
BoomWolf wrote: I don't think you guys truly understand the scale of the buff you want. Had terminator armor provide T5 and another wound, they would be overpower already.
Terminators don't need quite as much as you think. They just need to downgrade their weapons.
According to CSM a power fist terminator is 7 points over a power weapon terminator. Can you really not see 28 point tactical terminators with power weapons instead of fists being valuable?
Their main problem is that you don't need so many power fists. And the current codex forces it.
While I agree some of the wish listing is a bit OTT, are you really claiming nurgle mutilators / obliterators are over powered, or are you assuming no points increase for the upgrade?
Nurgle terminators are not with 2 wounds, nor have power fists built in, nor have the pletora of loyalist marine rules on their side, nor are 35 points. (not much more, but still more, while being inferior other than the T5)
Oblits with MoN cost nearly double double than terminators. (though weapons included, they SHOULD cost quite a bit just not quite as much as they do.)
And yes, generally when people call for a buff, I assume that the intended is with points remaining the same unless otherwise stated.
1.) Storm bolter being a salvo weapon (2/4), gives them volume of fire.
2.) 2 wounds and eternal warrior, doesn't solve the glut of ap 2 weapons, but makes it take a little work to kill termies.
3.) Better access to heavy/special weapons, say 1/5.
4.) Give the cyclone missile system split fire, which will help with the mixed weapon issue that heavy weapons in squads with small arms usually suffer from.
My ideas on how to buff termies. Note 1 and 2 are separate ideas. Its one or the other. Idea #3 however would apply to both changes.
Idea #1: If they fail a 2 up armor save they can opt to get a free re roll armor save, but on a 3+ instead of a 2+.
This makes them very resistant to small arms fire and will only go down to MASS small arms or dedicated anti tank weapons. They are still weak to AP2, but that is the point. You need anti tank weapons to deal with them.
Idea #2: Terminator armor provides FNP 5+ base. THis is the more mild version. FNP for all termies would be helpful in giving them more staying power on the field even against none s8 ap2 weapons. Would be even better with Iron Hands.
Idea #3: The sergeant (and only the sergeant) gains 2 wounds. The terminators are the elite of the elite and their sergeants are the leaders of the elite of the elite. They are the step down from captains and as such I think 2 wounds is fair for them.
Martel732 wrote: Shred might be a good compromise. But only for the ones on terminators, due to their extra ammo capacity. Or, alternative, take away their storm bolters and give them a different weapon.
I like that as a fluffy and game-worthy upgrade for Terminators. Not just Bolters, but what about any ranged weapon?
Fixing terminators would be pretty easy. Just do the following
2 Wounds. Suddenly, defensively, they are worth it over marines (currently they aren't unless you see AP 3 spam but still have a weakness against lascannons and stuff).
Storm bolters should be salvos. Something like 2/4. 4 bolter shots would mean that a squad of 5 kills
~4.5 DA/FW equivalents
~9 MeQ if no cover (about 6 with 5+ cover)
~2 Marines
Hmm, actually that's still not impressive for 200 points. Maybe give them shred as well, or Salvo 2/5. 2/5 w/o shred makes it
~5.5 DA/FW ~11 MeQ no cover, ~7.5 with 5+ cover
~3 Marines
That seems a bit more fair. Shred would make them brutal against infantry but still weak against larger/tougher infantry.
I always saw this as the Termies roll. Moving through huge amounts of gunfire and punching tanks or shooting up troops so the specialized marines can move in. It would make them interesting.
I also want to see more T4 multiple wound units. It would make lances, lascannons, and ML a lot better. Lascannons especially would be anti-terminator weapons, and you might see them actually get used.
5th 3++ terminators were not an issue in my experience. Too slow to be a threat.
When the meta was mainly comprised of parking lots (5E), Deathwing was actually very threatening. DS a bunch of squads, run after the DS, weather the next turn of shooting and charge. It was pretty reasonable to get 3 or 4 squads within range for a charge in the following turn.
5th 3++ terminators were not an issue in my experience. Too slow to be a threat.
When the meta was mainly comprised of parking lots (5E), Deathwing was actually very threatening. DS a bunch of squads, run after the DS, weather the next turn of shooting and charge. It was pretty reasonable to get 3 or 4 squads within range for a charge in the following turn.
Charge a bunch of cheap transports? Okay. Show me who's boss. Assuming they didn't move out of range of your slow infantry. That scheme absolutely did not work vs mech vet IG, which would be known to pack 20 meltas and 20 plasmas for starters.
The Imperial shooting options for terminators have always sunk them.
TH/SS Deathwing Terminators with CMLs back in 5th after the FAQ update where actually quite good vs the MSU Mech meta. I know I had a lot of fun with them.
Sadly all my Deathwing models have been sitting unloved in a box ever since 6th ed.
Terminators don't need quite as much as you think. They just need to downgrade their weapons.
According to CSM a power fist terminator is 7 points over a power weapon terminator. Can you really not see 28 point tactical terminators with power weapons instead of fists being valuable?
What makes Chaos Terminators better than loyalist Terminators isn't that they're cheaper because they're not obligated to have power fists (though that does help), it's that they can take combi-weapons, so their shooting on the turn they arrive can actually accomplish something useful. Loyalist Terminators have weak anti-infantry firepower they can't swap out. The best they can do is upgrade one guy per 5 to carry mediocre heavy weapons. Chaos Terminators can all be given combi-meltas, giving them a decent chance or slagging something on arrival.
Quickjager wrote: FNP makes no sense still. Just improve the toughness and invul.
Or all the AP2 pie plates keep having a field day.
How does increasing the toughness make sense but FNP doesn't? Ultimately, they are still just veteran marines, so a stat increase doesn't really fit, and we already have Centurian suits that increase wounds and toughness. FNP is easy enough to explain, the armour is just that dang tough. Only the biggest guns can reliably get through it. Increasing the invulnerable save does nothing to help against piddly small arms fire which wears the unit down through sheer volume (something that doesn't fit the terminator fluff in any way).
For those concerned that a FNP 4+ would be broken with all the rules that add to FNP, its an easy solution, put the stipulation in that it can't be increased beyond 4+ (much like Necrons and Reanimation Protocols).
Exactly. Four Termicide dudes is about 150 points to eliminate a specific target. There's no Deep Striking accuracy for CSM outside the stupid Key, but oh well...
Can someone explain to me the difference in the role Termies are supposed to fill in the Space Marine army and the role that Centurions are supposed to fill?
Martel732 wrote: Terminators are like shock troops. They are more choppy than shooty. Centurions are pure shooty.
Dev Cents (which is what most people think of) this is correct.
The oft-neglected assault cents fill a very similar role to tactical terminators. A bit of shooting, and a lot of chopping.
IMHO cents are an unnecessary add on to the fluff. I would have rather seen terminators boosted statwise to where Cents are, rather then a new unit made that has a very heavy overlap with the traditional TDA role. Or had Cents have inferior stats, with the fluff background of they were a easier to make substitute for the rare/hard to manufacture TDA armor. But that ship has sailed. We have what we got.
Martel732 wrote: Terminators are like shock troops. They are more choppy than shooty. Centurions are pure shooty.
Dev Cents (which is what most people think of) this is correct.
The oft-neglected assault cents fill a very similar role to tactical terminators. A bit of shooting, and a lot of chopping.
IMHO cents are an unnecessary add on to the fluff. I would have rather seen terminators boosted statwise to where Cents are, rather then a new unit made that has a very heavy overlap with the traditional TDA role. Or had Cents have inferior stats, with the fluff background of they were a easier to make substitute for the rare/hard to manufacture TDA armor. But that ship has sailed. We have what we got.
Agree with this statement. Additionally, Cents are probably the ugliest unit in C:SM in my opinion.
Martel732 wrote: Terminators are like shock troops. They are more choppy than shooty. Centurions are pure shooty.
Dev Cents (which is what most people think of) this is correct.
The oft-neglected assault cents fill a very similar role to tactical terminators. A bit of shooting, and a lot of chopping.
IMHO cents are an unnecessary add on to the fluff. I would have rather seen terminators boosted statwise to where Cents are, rather then a new unit made that has a very heavy overlap with the traditional TDA role. Or had Cents have inferior stats, with the fluff background of they were a easier to make substitute for the rare/hard to manufacture TDA armor. But that ship has sailed. We have what we got.
I think Assault Cents server a different role from Terminators. ACs are more about siege warfare, breaking through bunkers, tearing down gun emplacements and other fortifications, punching holes in tanks, stuff that is easy to hit in assault and doesn't hit back. The extra T and W serve the purpose of making them durable enough to get to their intended target. Terminators are meant as a more precise shock unit, teleporting behind enemy lines, weathering the initial fire and charging into key units such as enemy command squads or heavy weapon squads.
I've found that once in combat, Terminators of all kinds often do well enough to cause significant havoc providing the unit is largely intact. Its why Terminators in a land raider are effective (but prohibitively expensive) because it negates one of their biggest weaknesses. However, the land raider tax is ridiculously high, and even TH/SS termies are not currently durable enough to weather the incoming fire after a deepstrike.
Once you pay for a Drop Pod, though, Assault Centurions are just going to be better than Tactical Terminators AND Assault Terminators. The firepower they provide more than makes up for having four less attacks in the group (or just three if you pay for the Veteran upgrade).
At the same time they are still a gak assault unit because anything you can kill with Assault Centurions could be killed with Assault Termies for a lower cost.
If they come across anything with a Invul they start sucking even more.
You're going to be paying for 4-5 TH-SS because the Lightning Claws exist solely as challenge catchers. This makes the unit 215-225. Centurions with Melta Guns are 175, and the Drop Pod makes them 210. Add the Veteran upgrade or Omniscope or Deathwind for taste (or two or all of them, if points allow).
Immediately you have taken care of the mobility issue. The Deep Strike is accurate, and the Drop Pod can potentially sit on an objective too. 7 S10 attacks at I4 is just worth it over 10 S8 at I1.
Add different values for charging of course, but Terminators are DEFINITELY not killing the same targets for less.
Cents have the advantage in that they are more effective against all AV targets (which means Imperial Knights essentially) and SW melee (Due to ID).
However they are only I4 if they don't have to deal with difficult terrain, which an opponent will recognize and will as a result move into such a position. Hell depending on the board a unit could simply kite them as they can't run. This means you might not even get that charge you NEED off.
So they need a better delivery system, they need a goddamn Land Raider which is 245 points.
You're going to be paying for 4-5 TH-SS because the Lightning Claws exist solely as challenge catchers. This makes the unit 215-225. Centurions with Melta Guns are 175, and the Drop Pod makes them 210. Add the Veteran upgrade or Omniscope or Deathwind for taste (or two or all of them, if points allow).
Immediately you have taken care of the mobility issue. The Deep Strike is accurate, and the Drop Pod can potentially sit on an objective too. 7 S10 attacks at I4 is just worth it over 10 S8 at I1.
Add different values for charging of course, but Terminators are DEFINITELY not killing the same targets for less.
Depends on the target. If you are assaulting, or being assaulted by (as is usually the case), something fast or well equipped like a hive tyrant, greater daemon, or even a unit of necron wraiths, the TH/SS terminators generally do better than the assault centurions because they can survive that initial wave of AP2 hits better, and then every round after that, everybody strikes at Init 1. Against slower, more mundane targets such as vehicles, bunkers, or even some slower MCs like carnifexes, the assault cents should perform better because it allows them to take advantage of their faster, stronger attacks, killing their target outright before it ever gets a chance to hit back. In my mind, this is exactly how it should be.
Of course, deepstriking either unit is likely a death sentence for them, because any time a unit deepstrikes in or near an enemy deployment, every gun is pointed their way. At least assault cents can suicide melta a tank or something.
That's untrue regarding Daemon Princes and Wraiths, as both are T5 and are ID'd by Centurions. Plus they have the shooting to soften them up (if they're in charging range, they're being hit by 3 TL Melta Guns and 9 TL Bolters). That shooting makes up for it immediately. Also, nobody charges with Tyrants, and their 4 attacks make them pathetic to try and charge either target (you're looking at two hits and a little less than two wounds. Chances say the Centurions will be just fine).
Nevelon wrote: IMHO cents are an unnecessary add on to the fluff. I would have rather seen terminators boosted statwise to where Cents are, rather then a new unit made that has a very heavy overlap with the traditional TDA role. Or had Cents have inferior stats, with the fluff background of they were a easier to make substitute for the rare/hard to manufacture TDA armor. But that ship has sailed. We have what we got.
I completely agree, I just wanted to make sure there wasn't something I was missing. So, basically instead of giving terminators their much needed buff, the "design" team thought it better to create a whole new unit to fill basically the same role - just another reason to love GW......
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: That's untrue regarding Daemon Princes and Wraiths, as both are T5 and are ID'd by Centurions. Plus they have the shooting to soften them up (if they're in charging range, they're being hit by 3 TL Melta Guns and 9 TL Bolters). That shooting makes up for it immediately. Also, nobody charges with Tyrants, and their 4 attacks make them pathetic to try and charge either target (you're looking at two hits and a little less than two wounds. Chances say the Centurions will be just fine).
I think the centurion siege drill is S9, not S10. I don't have the book with me, so I could be wrong.
I want to try centurions instead of termies. You can cure their mobility problems with drop pods and their s10 at initiative attacks will ruin someone's day. Also don't forget their assault launchers that are both assault and defensive grenades. They can also fit one IC with them in their pod. Them +a chaplain will get work done.
IMHO cents are an unnecessary add on to the fluff. a new unit made that has a very heavy overlap with the traditional TDA role. Or had Cents have inferior stats, with the fluff background of they were a easier to make substitute for the rare/hard to manufacture TDA armor. But that ship has sailed. We have what we got.
That kind of implies that squads of Terminators exist primarily to lift heavy equipment for the support of other units and can't really operate by themselves.
I don't think that's really what Terminators do. I think Terminators, the individual marines who make up Terminator units, are elite self contained units, and centurion suits are the equivalent of finding the strongest, dumbest fire fighters in the room to do one specific task while 97 other guys get on with their own jobs. That's something I actually really like, because I like when everyone has a role to play and works together, but it is a totally different thing than a Terminator.
You understand that, right, like that Terminators are the actual five guys whose job it is to enter a space hulk by themselves, while coincidentally wearing TDA? They could conceivably be five guys in flak armor, but their survival time would be shorter than the mission, so they wear special armor. It is called "Terminator armor" because special units called Terminator squads that wear that kind of armor.
I also don't really think TDA can even give those kinds of bonus, but that's a whole other thing.
but we have made our statements and if people were to ask what went wrong with 
It's almost guaranteed!
