Have you used the formation "Infernal Tetrad"? Do you have any suggestions as to how to use it, or improve it?
I'll share my experiences with it, and would like to know yours either fighting it or using it.
Edit :
I've updated all the of data learned from myself and others here.
Remember, a 6 on the stomp table isn't D, it just removes the models from play. I know you said a SS stomped two princes in one fight, but uh, how? The way the stomps have to be placed, even if you get three, makes it very hard to hit multiple large models, especially if the princes aren't B2B, which they really shouldn't be.
Swampmist wrote: Remember, a 6 on the stomp table isn't D, it just removes the models from play. I know you said a SS stomped two princes in one fight, but uh, how? The way the stomps have to be placed, even if you get three, makes it very hard to hit multiple large models, especially if the princes aren't B2B, which they really shouldn't be.
It was not in the same stomp. He rolled 3 stomps, the first stomp rolled a 6, the second a 2, then the third a 6. The princes were spaced, but within 5" of each other, allowing him to walk the stomp over to touch the base of the second prince. The only way I see to prevent that would be to assault the other side of the stormsurge, but that's hard due to the way the board works.
The problem was also the double stormsurge. If it had been a single stormsurge, I think the princes could have overwhelmed it with attacks. Having two in a unit was to many wounds for the princes to deal with. He assaulted the princes with his stormsurges, ensuring he could do the most damage. Standing back to try and 'get the assault' was not an option -- as the surges move 12" as well. Standing back to try and 'get the assault off' would only accomplish in taking fire the entire game, as the princes are an assault unit.
That was why I mentioned the best plan is to just swoop in those instances. If you are going to be shrieking at stormsurges anyway, you might as well be hard to hit.
Interestingly enough, in that game his riptides were unable to really effectively hurt princes. They did not have the punch to really get past their greater rewards, shroud, and toughness. I think that a riptide wing army would be steamrolled by the tetrad.
buo-ong wrote: If fateweaver can force an opponent's roll in his turn( to make him re-roll 6 of D weaponary), I would go with it but sadly it doesn't...
Agreed. Fatey is still awesome for what he brings through. 300 points for a ton of psychic powers, including two rolls on the daemonology table. He also knows all 6 of the new powers, some of which are extremely good -- like the D shot power.
I will hopefully be trying this out tonight at my LGS. I'll be adding Belakor and some pink horrors for WC. I feel like Belakor "fits" the Tetrad better than Fateweaver. Not only does he come with Shrouding that can help the Princes greatly, but he is THE Daemon Prince. Don't you want The DP in a list of DPs?
I also feel like pointing out a few downsides to Fateweaver. 1) Without an ideal Grimiore carrier or target, FW is less appealing. 2) In a list in which you need powers to enhance the Princes, bringing a character who needs more WC than he brings to be effective is actually a drain on making your Princes effective. 3) FW wants to be WL for the Warp Storm re-roll, but making him WL denies you one of the coolest benefits of the Tetrad. Don't get me wrong, FW is great in any other list that has more bodies to support, but in a Tetrad list, you force yourself to make hard tactical decisions. Belakor is good in CC, doesn't want to be WL and doesn't have to always cast, but when he does, it helps the Princes instead of taking away from them.
@ Labmouse42: I agreed with the overall tactics and 100% support 2x Greater rewards on every DP.
I just went to a tournament using the Tetrad, Belakor, and a chaos knight. I did fairly well for my first time playing a flying circus style list.
I did decide to probably switch out Belakor for a lord of change to have more points for buying upgrades. My princes were pretty minimal with 1 psyker level each (except khorne of course) and no greater rewards. They were still quite durable though, by flying for the first couple turns to whittle down some shooting I didn't have a lot of threats that could kill me anyways (except for a war convocation player that had lots of shots hitting on 5's rerolling).
I liked the khorne axe for having some potential strength D since I went against a lot of units that were tough to get through otherwise (superheavies, reanimation protocols, FNP, etc). I will probably switch out the soulstealer sword on my slaanesh one for the lash, too.
Belakor did some great work for me (including taking down a giant squiggoth almost singlehandedly) but I never cast invisibility so that's part of why I'm switching him out. He's also just very expensive and hard to justify unless I do land him and have him fighting through opponents. I decided the lord of change and tzeentch prince with +2 str would be just as effective at taking down vehicles and gargantuan creatures though.
I'd like to get your experiences and see what can be done to make the Infernal Tetrad more effective.
As long as I get a game in tonight, I'll post a brief Bat Rep.
Oh man, people are going to have some serious choices with their opponents tonight aren't they? I have a tetrad/tallyband in my trunk right now!
Tallyband is 6 min nurglings, 1 PB sqaud with Bell herald at ML2 for some extra dice. Going to throw it all at summoning. filled the rest of my case with stuff to summon. Figure if I get some good psychic rolls on my DPs, I might chuck some dice at malediction. Heck, Herald might summon pinkies that might turn into a D thirster, you never know.
Lets just not face each other. Tetrad vs Tetrad will make for a crappy bat rep.
gwarsh41, would you also be able to post your thoughts after trying the tetrad with the tallybrand?
Are you bringing the bell of -1 LD?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lessthanjeff wrote: I just went to a tournament using the Tetrad, Belakor, and a chaos knight. I did fairly well for my first time playing a flying circus style list.
labmouse42 wrote: gwarsh41, would you also be able to post your thoughts after trying the tetrad with the tallybrand?
Are you bringing the bell of -1 LD?
Yes, The bell seems like a must with the tallyband. Using nurglings to deny overwatch, and forcing that leadership to reduce S and T could be very useful. Also for the chance I face someone that isn't fearless or marines. Keeping furies AUX in reserves so they don't give first blood. The corruption seems like it could be pretty nice with the princes running up the field, tapping objectives as they go.
Swampmist wrote: Also, Bell+Shriek (or most of the telepathy table for that matter) OP
Oh snap! I didn't even think about that! I planned to give shriek to Slaanesh and Tzeentch DP. Nurgle will be Jinking all the time most likely. Tzeentch will have a ++3, so no need.
Khorne Prince The Armor of Scorn seems to be the default upgrade here. Given that warp armor is a 20 point upgrade, 10 more points for +1 toughness and Adamantium Will is a great upgrade. For gifts, I like to give him the Axe of Khorne, and in most games I'll trade a major reward for the Blade of Blood -- which gives Rampage as well as another specialist weapon. This increases the Khorne Princes attacks to most targets to 7+d3 when charging -- all at STR 7.
* Note * ITC FAQ states that to get rampage from the blade of blood, you need to use it -- which lowers the init of the prince.
I've had more than one opponent just start referring to the Khorne Prince as a bloodthirster, which is an apt title.
MC's not affected by Unwieldy. He will still strike at regular Init.
D Blues Stomps have killed my princes more than anything else in every game I've played. If you have some suggestions as to prevent a 250+ model from getting one shotted, I'm all ears!
If you are playing against a Knight army, consider rolling on the Escalation Warlord Traits table. There is one result that reduces a 6 on the D and Stomp table to a 5 (or something like that). However, if it is is just a single GMC/SH (like a WK), I'd just go with the Daemon Warlord Traits.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For Tzeentch, I like to equip him with the Impossible Robes as well. Then with Warlord Traits or Cursed Earth, you can easily make him a re-rollable 2++ without needing the Grimoire, which you can then use on another unit.
On top of that, if you get the Re-roll Inv or 4+ FNP greater gifts, he becomes near unkillable.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, btw, one more way for you to potentially get +1 Inv (or +1W) is with the Fighter Ace upgrade.
If you are playing against a Knight army, consider rolling on the Escalation Warlord Traits table. There is one result that reduces a 6 on the D and Stomp table to a 5 (or something like that). However, if it is is just a single GMC/SH (like a WK), I'd just go with the Daemon Warlord Traits.
In the Escalation supplement. What it says basically is if your opponent takes a Super-heavy/Gargant, then you can opt to roll on the Escalation WL table as well.
2 of my opponents at the LVO actually did that when playing against my Chaos Knight and actually got that (though one of my opponents did so illegaly but we didn't know it at the time).
All of these supplements - Escalation, Death From the Skies, Stronghold Assault - are legal in regular 40K unless the tourney FAQ expressly forbids them. They are definitely legal in the ITC system unless explicilty forbidden by the ITC. The ITC was even doing the +1VP/3HP or Wounds that you take off from a SH/GC from the Escalation supplement (this was before the most recent ITC changes).
But in a casual game, I suppose it will be up to the players. Then again, you can always refuse to play against your opponent if he brought a SH/GC and you didn't.
jy2 wrote: All of these supplements - Escalation, Death From the Skies, Stronghold Assault - are legal in regular 40K unless the tourney FAQ expressly forbids them. They are definitely legal in the ITC system unless explicilty forbidden by the ITC. The ITC was even doing the +1VP/3HP or Wounds that you take off from a SH/GC from the Escalation supplement (this was before the most recent ITC changes).
Yeah but the Escalation FAQ makes it clear that the rules in it are only used when playing escalation missions (not just in regular 40k) so ITC is specifically adding +1VP/3HP to their tournament packet and because it wouldn't be in place otherwise.
jy2 wrote: In the Escalation supplement. What it says basically is if your opponent takes a Super-heavy/Gargant, then you can opt to roll on the Escalation WL table as well.
2 of my opponents at the LVO actually did that when playing against my Chaos Knight and actually got that (though one of my opponents did so illegaly but we didn't know it at the time).
Well, they were mistaken, or your tournament was using house rules.
The FAQ/Errata clearly establishes when those Warlord traits are allowed.
"Furthermore, if you are playing an Altar of War: Escalation
or Gauntlet Challenge mission and your opponent has
a Lords of War unit as part of their army, your Warlord
can choose to roll on the Escalation Warlord Traits
table shown right instead of one of the Warlord Traits
normally available to your Warlord.’"
jy2 wrote: MC's not affected by Unwieldy. He will still strike at regular Init.
Thank you for the catch. I have made the correction.
jy2 wrote: If you are playing against a Knight army, consider rolling on the Escalation Warlord Traits table. There is one result that reduces a 6 on the D and Stomp table to a 5 (or something like that). However, if it is is just a single GMC/SH (like a WK), I'd just go with the Daemon Warlord Traits.
That is something to consider. It means losing one of the best perks of the formation, as the shared warlord trait is pretty awesome. In my last two games I had +1 spell levels to each prince, which made for fun when the khorne prince was casting 'boom of flame'
Oddly enough, I think that the princes, properly buffed will likely do better against knights. I need to run the numbers on this, but in most of my games at least one prince, sometimes two got fleshbane/armorbane. What makes the GC's so tough are the high number of wounds, invuln saves and FNP.
buo-ong wrote: Does anybody tried book or grimore with infernal tetrad?
Do they need it actually?
When I was playing last weekend, I did not find any need for it.
I was casting 'cursed earth' pretty regularly, which brought the tzeentch prince down to a 2++ and the rest of the princes down to a 4++
I was using Be'lakor to give shrounding to my Tzeentch, Khorne, and Slaanesh prince, so everyone was jinking on a 2+.
The other issue is that the grimoire means you cannot take another hellforged artifact. It also eats up a greater reward slot, and greater rewards really push the princes to the next level.
Being able to take 2 greaters and a hellforged from the wulfen book is a nice boost to DP's power.
I ended up facing off against a CSM/Daemons army.
CSM was ariham_cypher, 20 cultists and 10 cultists.
Daemons was a KoS and 3 flying slaanesh princes
Not exactly the match up i was looking for, as its pretty dang close to what I had.
I got the -1ws/bs warlord trait, it was pretty useful. Now, say its DP on DP, do I hit them on 3s? We played it where I don't, as I didn't think I would count them as -1 for the sake of me hitting them back only -1 for the sake of them hitting me. It still helped out a bit here and there.
I had tetrad+tallyband. Herald ML2 with bell. He got cursed earth and possession. My daemon princes got very few buffs. Tzeentch got cursed earth, which was awesome, nugle got incursion, just about everything else was witchfire. He had so many more dice than me that no witchfires of note were cast.
Turn 1 the herald turned into a D thirster, I brought one along just in case, I've never fielded it, and I wanted to put it on the table. Plus I needed some vector striking to try to bring those suckers down, as all his DP were flying. Tzeentch got off cursed earth and that was it.
His turn, just about everything tried to kill my Khorn DP, as he was the only one on the ground without a +2 of some sort. So like, 5 psychic shrieks and 4 lashes of slaanesh did 1 or 2 wounds (go FnP!). Adamantium will helped me deny 3 of the shrieks, my opponent threw lots of dice at invisibility for his giant warlord cultist blob.
Khorn DP charged KoS Thanks to warp storm and cursed earth, everyone had a ++3, all but I think my slaanesh prince and one of his. The bloothirster and tzeentch DP vector striked a prince and grouned it, nurgle charged it and killed it with balesword.
Oh yeah - Balesword / corruption. Major flub on my part. Corruption is a CC weapon. I learned this before the game started, so corruption/balesword combo isn't all that great. You will EITHER auto wound or instant death, not both, unless I am reading it wrong.
Slaaanesh prince vecrot struck and lashed his prince and did 2 wounds, bringing it to 1. KoS vs Khorn, I think I did 2 wounds, we were both feeling the pain. Nurgle prince also summoned some plague drones that assault moved to corrupt an objective, giving me 5/6.
I think at this point my opponent called it. I had scored first blood, putting me up 4-0. I had 5/6 objectives on the table and we were playing the maelstorm mission where you generate based on the objectives you have. He had 1, which he lost the next turn.
We played it out for the next few turns, just to see what would happen. All my DP landed. his blob charged the Khorne DP, glorious intervention invisible cypher did a wound, the khorn DP did a wound, they did hit and run. I then corrupted the objective they had been next to. Thirster ended up being charged by the blob I think, had 2 wounds, died before he could swing. Tzeentch and nurgle DP charged, nurglings did first, so no overwatch, they failed leadership on 11, so -1S and T for luls. Tzeentch called challenge, rolled 222225, killed the cultist champ, explosion killed 5 more, so it worke d out in the end. Nurgle dude killed 5 as well, cypher, ariham, and like, 10 cultists did 3 wounds to nurglings, who did 7 in return. I won combat, they ran and escaped, we shook hands.
It was definitely not the match up I was looking for. all but 2 or 3 of my powers were useless, just because he was able to throw twice my dice to deny, Then any invulnerable save manipulation I did would boost him too, so late in the game I just gave up. My Tzeentch DP would have been much better off fighting the KoS, but needed a 10" turn 2 charge, where it was a 6 for the khorne one, and I needed to slay an MC. I was bummed at the lack of CC I saw.
Ditching corruption seems like a plan, talking with Galef, there are only a very few enemies you will need it, and not combining with balesword is a big drop in power. Lesser reward on Khorne, I didn't bring one, but I think I should have. If I did, the KoS would have been dead turn 2, and that would have changed the game up a lot. I can grab it with the points from corruption.
Worst thing was the Nurgle DP rolling +3 armor and the S8 lance for his rewards.Also ended up with life leech, incursion and enfeeble. I really wanted something to boost his toughness. In the end it was standard daemon princes fighting better daemon princes with some cultists and loads of extra dice sitting on the side. I still would like to see how it does against a less mirrored army.
Battle Report as promised. Just like gwarsh41, most of my powers were crap, which was sad because I had the 3+ to cast WL trait. Biggest disappointment was loosing my Tz Prince due to a failed LD check. Otherwise I would have obliterated my opponent
Battle Report as promised. Just like gwarsh41, most of my powers were crap, which was sad because I had the 3+ to cast WL trait. Biggest disappointment was loosing my Tz Prince due to a failed LD check. Otherwise I would have obliterated my opponent
I'd like to pick your thoughts on some of your choices.
1) Why did you not grab summoning instead of 'dark flame' on your Tzeench prince? Were you just diving for cursed earth? You said your powers were crap, but when your harnessing on a 3+, 5 dice and reliably get your that summons.
2) Was there a reason you went for the greater eitherblade over the Blade of Blood? Was there a T4 target you needed to instakill?
3) Warpspeed and Endurance are pretty boss on your slaanesh prince. I don't see those as useless powers. +3 attacks is gross.
4) Grabbing the plague flail with the balesword would have given +1 attack for dual specialist weapons, in addition to giving the options of a STR 8 hit. The powers were pretty limp on him.
5) Why did you not grab psychic scream on each prince? It's a very good attack that is cheap to grab, and works great on gaunts etc.... Given that it's only 1 warp dice to throw, I'm just curious as to your thought process.
6) Did you feel that swooping turn one with 3 of the DPs did much good? I've been thinking more and more about I just want to keep them gliding when shrouding is being handed out. Were you worried about nid shooting? I ask this because on turn 2 you landed 2 princes to prepare for charging. You could have been doing the charging instead of preparing. For each prince that started swooping, it was one less turn of beating face -- which from reading what you posted was where you did a lot of your damage.
7) I saw you ID'ed with the Axe of Khorne. Pretty sweet. That had to hurt.
8) That sucks about the robes. I'm sure the FNP would have helped, but that is a risk of playing with the robes -- one bad round of bad luck will ruin your day.
1) I had already rolled Incursion, so since he had lots of gaunts and rippers, plus 1 Horror unit already had Summoning, I kept Dark Flame.
2) All the targets I wanted the K prince to go after were other MC's, so I would not have gotten Rampage. I only chose the 'magic weapon' because I rolled the 3+ armour reward (lame). The +1 str Master Craft really added to the +1str, reroll 1s from the formation. I was str8 on the turns after I charged the Zoans, rerolling all 1's and one 2 from the Master Craft.
3) I never had the dice to cast Warpspeed, but I did cast Endurance a few times. twice on the K Prince, once on the S princess. I didn't put that in the bat-rep because it didn't really impact the game.
4) Yeah this was my mistake. In my list, I actually had a lesser reward, but I forgot to roll it. I have been playing Daemons for years, but have never had a list with SOOOO much random rolling. Usually 1 LOC and 2 horror unit is the most I run.
5) My plan was to do that, but I didn't get the powers I wanted from Biomancy, so I had to keep fishing. Plus I wasn't going to waste a Shreik on gaunts and the other units in his army were LD10. I have had really bad experiences with Shreik, usually never rolling higher than the targets LD.
6) I felt that the K & N Princes were enough. The Swooping MCs flew over them to be more priority targets. And yes, Nid shooting is gross. He had over 30 shots per Devilgaunt unit. I was also waiting for his Mawlocs to come in since they cannot hit Swopping MCs. If all his army was on the board, Yes I would have just Glided up.
The Formation bonus for having 2+ Princes is re-rolling 1's to Hit, not all hits. Hence Etherblades and Greater Etherblades put that cherry on top with MC in case you roll a 2 to hit.
The reason most people just say "re-roll to hit" is due to the BS5, which 1's are the only miss, thus re-roll to hit
I can see the strength of the tallyband showing with the infernal tetrad. My opponent could have focused on my nurglings and messed up my objective grabbing pretty easily, but instead focused on my 4 super daemons, letting me take all the objectives I wanted.
Galef wrote: 1) I had already rolled Incursion, so since he had lots of gaunts and rippers, plus 1 Horror unit already had Summoning, I kept Dark Flame.
2) All the targets I wanted the K prince to go after were other MC's, so I would not have gotten Rampage. I only chose the 'magic weapon' because I rolled the 3+ armour reward (lame). The +1 str Master Craft really added to the +1str, reroll 1s from the formation. I was str8 on the turns after I charged the Zoans, rerolling all 1's and one 2 from the Master Craft.
3) I never had the dice to cast Warpspeed, but I did cast Endurance a few times. twice on the K Prince, once on the S princess. I didn't put that in the bat-rep because it didn't really impact the game.
4) Yeah this was my mistake. In my list, I actually had a lesser reward, but I forgot to roll it. I have been playing Daemons for years, but have never had a list with SOOOO much random rolling. Usually 1 LOC and 2 horror unit is the most I run.
5) My plan was to do that, but I didn't get the powers I wanted from Biomancy, so I had to keep fishing. Plus I wasn't going to waste a Shreik on gaunts and the other units in his army were LD10. I have had really bad experiences with Shreik, usually never rolling higher than the targets LD.
6) I felt that the K & N Princes were enough. The Swooping MCs flew over them to be more priority targets. And yes, Nid shooting is gross. He had over 30 shots per Devilgaunt unit. I was also waiting for his Mawlocs to come in since they cannot hit Swopping MCs. If all his army was on the board, Yes I would have just Glided up.
--
Thanks for your thoughts. It was very insightful and helpful
Overall it was a ton of fun to play, but too much book keeping for my taste and too much potential to make a mistake by not swapping for the right stuff or casting the wrong power over another. I'd definitely play it again, but never in a Tournament.
I think gwarsh41's list (with the Tallyband) is closer to competitive because all the benefits of the Incursion, but I still don't see this as really top tier competitive. Eldar, Tau and Gladius Marines will still be an uphill battle. Infernal Tertad might be a good counter to a Necron Decurion due to their lack of anti-flyer stuff and the Tetrads possibilities for durability and ID weapons.
It's a good counter to warp spider spam, which wound DPs on a 6. Sure, every wound might be rending, but if you get shrouded on any of the princes, the damage output of the spiders drops to nearly 0. While they can hit and run out, the spiders will be torn to shreds before getting out.
Galef wrote: Overall it was a ton of fun to play, but too much book keeping for my taste and too much potential to make a mistake by not swapping for the right stuff or casting the wrong power over another. I'd definitely play it again, but never in a Tournament.
I think gwarsh41's list (with the Tallyband) is closer to competitive because all the benefits of the Incursion, but I still don't see this as really top tier competitive. Eldar, Tau and Gladius Marines will still be an uphill battle. Infernal Tertad might be a good counter to a Necron Decurion due to their lack of anti-flyer stuff and the Tetrads possibilities for durability and ID weapons.
--
As a Necron player, I don't care about AA.
When I feel like it, though, I bring Scythes, and that's potentially nasty. S10 means, if you have no EW, you just die.
Galef wrote: Overall it was a ton of fun to play, but too much book keeping for my taste and too much potential to make a mistake by not swapping for the right stuff or casting the wrong power over another. I'd definitely play it again, but never in a Tournament.
I think gwarsh41's list (with the Tallyband) is closer to competitive because all the benefits of the Incursion, but I still don't see this as really top tier competitive. Eldar, Tau and Gladius Marines will still be an uphill battle. Infernal Tertad might be a good counter to a Necron Decurion due to their lack of anti-flyer stuff and the Tetrads possibilities for durability and ID weapons.
--
As a Necron player, I don't care about AA.
When I feel like it, though, I bring Scythes, and that's potentially nasty. S10 means, if you have no EW, you just die.
My point is that no one brings Scythes in a competitive Decurion, so the Tetrad doesn't really have to worry about that. Also Tetrads bonus makes all the Princes T6, so no ID for you! (unless you kill 1 Prince, then they revert back to T5)
Another point I was trying to get across is that the Necrons strength is not in their damage output (which is decent, but not outstanding), but rather their durability. The Tetrad is durable enough to whether Necron shooting & CC and powerfull enough to get through the RPs. I good Necron player (who also know a lot about Daemons) can tactically win over the Tetrad, but the majority of Necron players may not be as familiar with which Princes to target first. The Nid player I played was a good player, but had very little experience against Daemons. In fact, I think our game may have been his 2nd or 3rd time ever playing against Daemons.
If the "big 4" are Necrons, Tau, Eldar and Marines, the Tetrad is only a counter to Necrons, thus making them not a top-tier list. But still fun as heck.
Yeah, fighting gladius would still be pretty rough. Eldar would also be a pain, as the wraithknights could still 1/6 chance remove a DP from play. Bikes could remove my nurglings from play and take objectives easier than I could.
I played an eldar player last week with my Tetrad list and found some interesting things out.
Vector striking 3 man squads of scat bikes is hilarious. During my game he had three squads of dragons in falcons and warp spiders on foot, so I kept my princes swooping until he arrived with all his deep striking units.
I spent the first two turns vector striking scat bike squads in the movement phase and summoning screamers and psychic shrieking the bikes.
I also learned that, as I mentioned earlier, that warp spiders are nearly useless vs daemon princes. Sure, they are hitting on a 2+ if you are not swooping, but they are wounding on a 6, and if you have shrouded you are getting a 2+ cover save. These are the chances of your prince actually taking a wound
(5/6 to hit) * (1/6 to wound) * (1/6 failed save) = 5/216 or 2.3% to wound. If you rolled the FNP 4+ gift, that is cut in half!
My Khorne prince assaulted a squad of 8 of them, killing most of them (including ID'ing the exarch) and the swept the rest.
The biggest worry that eldar can do is the WK. To tackle this you either need to feed it units every round, or hit it with every prince hoping you can take it down. The mathhammer shows that if all 4 princes hit it and you have the right gear/gifts its very doable to down the WK before it can swing.
-----------
Tau on the other hand are a show stopper. Double stormsurge is an auto-lose for this list, as you just can't bring what you need to handle the stormsurges. They are to damn durable and will stomp your princes to death.
jy2 wrote: All of these supplements - Escalation, Death From the Skies, Stronghold Assault - are legal in regular 40K unless the tourney FAQ expressly forbids them. They are definitely legal in the ITC system unless explicilty forbidden by the ITC. The ITC was even doing the +1VP/3HP or Wounds that you take off from a SH/GC from the Escalation supplement (this was before the most recent ITC changes).
Yeah but the Escalation FAQ makes it clear that the rules in it are only used when playing escalation missions (not just in regular 40k) so ITC is specifically adding +1VP/3HP to their tournament packet and because it wouldn't be in place otherwise.
jy2 wrote: In the Escalation supplement. What it says basically is if your opponent takes a Super-heavy/Gargant, then you can opt to roll on the Escalation WL table as well.
2 of my opponents at the LVO actually did that when playing against my Chaos Knight and actually got that (though one of my opponents did so illegaly but we didn't know it at the time).
Well, they were mistaken, or your tournament was using house rules.
The FAQ/Errata clearly establishes when those Warlord traits are allowed.
"Furthermore, if you are playing an Altar of War: Escalation
or Gauntlet Challenge mission and your opponent has
a Lords of War unit as part of their army, your Warlord
can choose to roll on the Escalation Warlord Traits
table shown right instead of one of the Warlord Traits
normally available to your Warlord.’"
I'm not sure if you guys are aware (I'm guessing probably not), but there is a discrepancy in the Escalation books.
Early in the rules (under Lords of War in 40K), they mention the Escalation rules that apply to all LoW units. These include:
1. Warlord Traits - you can roll on the Escalation traits if your opponent brings a LoWSH/GC and you do not.
2. Impending Doom - you get +1 to Seize if your opponent brings a SH/GC.
3. Through Attrition, Victory. (The ITC has since modified this in their scenarios but the other 2 above remains the same).
Then there are the optional Escalation scenarios later in the book, the Altar of War: Escalation and the Gauntlet Mission Challenges. In these Escalation campaign scenarios, it only makes mention of 2 things:
2. Impending Doom - you get +1 to Seize if your opponent brings a SH/GC.
3. Through Attrition, Victory. (The ITC has since modified this in their scenarios but the other 2 above remains the same).
What they left out was the ability to pick a Escalation Warlord trait if your opponent brought a SH/GC and you didn't.
The FAQ was to clarify precisely those specific campaign missions, not the Entire Escalation book.
jy2 wrote: If you are playing against a Knight army, consider rolling on the Escalation Warlord Traits table. There is one result that reduces a 6 on the D and Stomp table to a 5 (or something like that). However, if it is is just a single GMC/SH (like a WK), I'd just go with the Daemon Warlord Traits.
That is something to consider. It means losing one of the best perks of the formation, as the shared warlord trait is pretty awesome. In my last two games I had +1 spell levels to each prince, which made for fun when the khorne prince was casting 'boom of flame'
Oddly enough, I think that the princes, properly buffed will likely do better against knights. I need to run the numbers on this, but in most of my games at least one prince, sometimes two got fleshbane/armorbane. What makes the GC's so tough are the high number of wounds, invuln saves and FNP.
You still get the shared Warlord traits even if you don't roll on the Daemon Warlord Traits tables.
However, like I said, it isn't worth it unless you are playing against a Knight army with multiple SH's/GC's. The Daemon WL Tables are just too good.
The name of the supplement is Escalation. It is not Altar of War: Escalation.
The FAQ specifically addresses the Altar of War: Escalation missions within the Escalation book itself. It is a 2-part FAQ. The first part addresses the factions of the LoW units for the Escalation book. The 2nd part addresses 2 specific optional missions within the book.
This is the FAQ for Escalation (not Altar of War: Escalation) It says to replace the first 3 paragraph on page 34 with the new text. That removed your original permission to just use the escalation warlord table. It then added a new permission that if you are using alter of war missions that you can use the escalation warlord table.
I briefly bumped into him the night before NovaOpen2015 started and he was truly genuine man. His work on Dakka is legitimate and I'd love to play him one day on the table. I'm hoping this year at NovaOpen I'll get a chance. That is - if he's going
Thanks guys. Better to be flexible than stubborn, especially when giving out advice online. I wouldn't want to perpetuate bad/wrong advice/tactics to others and so I will freely admit when I am wrong.
@Saythings
Sorry, but I currently don't have plans to go to Nova this year. We'll see if that changes later though.
Hey guys, I've been thinking about the following: Do the Slaanesh & Nurgle Princes need the Warp Forged armour?
The Khorne & Tzeentch Princes will have Armour of Scorn & Impossibility Robes respectivetly, the Slaanesh Prince will be rolling Biomancy for Iron Arm, Nurgle has Shrouded, you might get 3+ armour or 4+FNP from Greater rewards, +1 invul from the Tz WL trait OR Cursed Earth.
It seems like dropping the Armour from both Princes might be a good option to save 40 points. Thnoughts?
I've been rolling with the warp forged armor for the following reasons.
1) When you get stuck in assault, the shrouded does not apply. I've been forced to make many 3+ saves in my Tetrad games thus far.
2) When I roll the 3+ save off a greater reward, that is usually the one I've been swapping for a weapon. Last time I rolled it with my tzeentch prince I gave him both a greater etherblade and the staff of change for +1 attack.
If I was trying to cut 40 points, I would drop the armor from those princes. I'm doing a 1250 doubles tourney this weekend and that was where I had to cut points, actually. After this weekend I'll let you know how they fared without the armor.
Is anyone running the Tetrad with less than wings and 1 lesser+2 greater all around, ML3 all around sans Khorne, and Impossible Robes and Armor of Scorn w/ warp forged on the other 2?
Roadhouse wrote: Is anyone running the Tetrad with less than wings and 1 lesser+2 greater all around, ML3 all around sans Khorne, and Impossible Robes and Armor of Scorn w/ warp forged on the other 2?
All the princes don't need a lesser. Only the Khorne and Tzeentch ones.
Otherwise, yes -- that seems to be the best loadout.
I've tried both corruption, soulstealer and silvershard and found those points are better spent elsewhere.
I also tried one game without any rewards, and they fell fast. Getting rewards like 4+ FNP go VERY far in keeping the princes alive.
I ran mine without greater rewards and only mastery level 1 for each. I did use the impossible robes and a couple other relics though. Even without all the greater rewards I was able to keep my princes alive pretty well anyways. The only armies that wiped them out were a tallyband with all those poison and instant death attacks and a war convocation.
labmouse42 wrote: I've been rolling with the warp forged armor for the following reasons.
1) When you get stuck in assault, the shrouded does not apply. I've been forced to make many 3+ saves in my Tetrad games thus far.
2) When I roll the 3+ save off a greater reward, that is usually the one I've been swapping for a weapon. Last time I rolled it with my tzeentch prince I gave him both a greater etherblade and the staff of change for +1 attack.
If I was trying to cut 40 points, I would drop the armor from those princes. I'm doing a 1250 doubles tourney this weekend and that was where I had to cut points, actually. After this weekend I'll let you know how they fared without the armor.
Very good points as usual, especially since the SP wants the Lash and the NP wants the Balwsword.
Not buying the Amour, then rolling it to have to chose is probably worse than buying the Armour, rolling it and having an easy choice
I have been rolling with out the armor on the Slaanesh and Nurgle ones. There is a crap ton of grav here. Plus usually with those two I am selling out on biomancy. T ten is pretty hard to wound or hopefully I will have endurance for a FNP save.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I am taking mine to Adepticon Thursday and will let you know how it goes....
I ran a 1250 point Tetrad in a doubles tourney yesterday, and with my friend's Eldar we scored first place. Here is a brief summary of our games.
Game One It was against khorne daemonkin and Tau. The khorne player threw 20 khorne dogs plus a herald into the nurgle and slaanesh prince, then summoned 5 more into the fray. The slaanesh prince killed the herald before anyone swung a blow, and after 5 round of combat, the slaanesh prince was killed and the nurgle prince, iron arm'ed the entire time, finally managed to splat the last dog.
The khorne prince did some work, killing a squad of CSM, then a squad of fire warriors. The Tzeench prince killed a squad of 8 khorne dogs. The tau player then dropped his farsight bomb next to my princes, throwing 20 plasma shots into the khorne princes who took a wound, then poured the other 11 or so into the tzeentch prince who laughed it off. Both princes then assaulted the farsight bomb and killed every single model.
They conceded at that point.
Game Two This game was against Tau and Marines. They got first turn and with all their tau's army's firepower were able to put 3 wounds onto the Slaanesh prince. The Slaanesh Prince went into swoop mode on the next turn and was then shot down by a stormtalon. I should have put shrounding on him.
My Nurgle prince, again with Iron Arm up, assaulted 3 assault centurians and a chapter master with a thunder hammer and shield of eternal. The nurgle prince slammed the chapter master into fine red paste, and the centurians were not able to score any wounds on it. The prince then doubled out all 3 centurians in the tau player's turn. The Nurgle prince consolidated forward, moved up and assaulted a riptide, causing it to fail LD with 1 wound and swept it. The prince did the same to another riptide on the next turn, and on the final turn, assauled the last riptide fleeing for it's life but did not manage to sweep it before the game was over. Once Nurgle prince did a LOT of work that game.
The Tzeentch and Khorne prince did a little work. The Tzeentch prince assaulted a rhino and then killed the 5 marines inside. During this time the Khorne prince assaulted the stormsurge with the Axe of Khorne. During this entire time I had been psychic shrieking the stormsurge and managed to do 2 wounds to it. The Khorne prince assaulted it and got 2 IDs on the Stormsurge, knocking the damn thing down to 2 wounds left. The stormsurge then stomped the Khorne prince to death.
The Tzeentch prince, seeing that the stormsurge had 2 wounds left assaulted the Khorne prince. The prince managed to do 1 more wound, and the f'ing stormsurge stompted the 2++ rerollable prince with FNP 4+ out of existing. Have I mentioned how much I hate stomp?
While the nurgle prince was working it's way to that 3rd riptide, it threw a psychic shriek on the stormsurge killing it. Yes, that one prince killed a chapter master, 3 assault centurians, 2 riptides, the killing blow on a stormsurge, and would have killed a 3rd riptide.
Game Three This game was against dual Eldar with a wraithknight, a wraithstar led by a wraithlord with a D shot gun, two falcons with some firedragons, a tank that shot D3 D barrage shots, and finally about 40+ scat bikes. This is as rough of a list as they come.
I deployed the princes far back near my deployment zone in ruins. This limited him to 10 scat bikes that could shoot at my princes, and he did 2 wounds to the slaanesh prince. He moved his D tank up and blasted our wraithknight for 3 wounds, and missed with this wraithblade squad's D shot.
I swept my 4 princes forward, not wanting to be on the ground until some of those scat bikes were cleared out. The khorne prince then did something completely amazing. He was a level 1 psyker due to the warlord trait, and he got prismatic gaze. I threw 7 dice at it and got it off with 5 which also caused a perils. He shot the tank and destroyed it with his D shot. He then fell out of the sky and landed hard, but saved the wound. Since he was now grounded, he assaulted the wraithstar killing the wraithlord and every single wraithblade. Roaring in victory, he then ate 20 scatter bikes worth of firepower, doing the last 3 wounds killing him. Sure, he was banished back to the warp, but he more than 'earned his points back' in that game!
My other 3 princes were each throwing out psychic shriek's and other various powers. On turn 4 I went into gliding mode, when there were about 20 scat bikes left. The game was going to end on turn 5, and we went last, so our opponents were trying to grab the objectives and keep us from contesting or killing them. They managed to kill the slaanesh prince with firepower from their entire army.
On the end of turn 5, the nurgle prince killed a falcon contesting an objective it was on, and the Tzeentch prince flew over and shrieked one bike squad off an objective then assaulted his warlord bike squad. The warlord refused a challenge, so I killed 4 bikes around it, swept the warlord and the last bike. We won that game 11 to 3.
During this entire time, my eldar partner was working hard to kill the wraithknight and scat bikes. It was a joint effort in all the games. I just highlighted the key areas where the princes were effective.
Final Thoughts Stormsurges should not be able to stomp princes. That is stupid as crap.
I should have just kept shrounding up and glided the princes starting on turn 2 in the final game.
Princes are highly random in effectiveness depending on rewards.
Make sure you avoid tarpit units like 20 khorne hounds.
Here is the final list I am taking to Adepticon
Unholy Tetrad
Tzeentch Prince Wings, Level 3, 2 Greater 1 Lesser Gifts, Robe
Slaanesh Prince Wings, Level 3, 2 Greater Gifts
Nurgle Prince Wings, Level 3, 2 Greater 1 Lesser Gift
Khorne Prince Wings, 2 Greater 1 Lesser Gift, Armor of Scorn
swanson4969 wrote: Here is the final list I am taking to Adepticon
Unholy Tetrad
Tzeentch Prince Wings, Level 3, 2 Greater 1 Lesser Gifts, Robe
Slaanesh Prince Wings, Level 3, 2 Greater Gifts
Nurgle Prince Wings, Level 3, 2 Greater 1 Lesser Gift
Khorne Prince Wings, 2 Greater 1 Lesser Gift, Armor of Scorn
swanson4969 wrote: Here is the final list I am taking to Adepticon
Unholy Tetrad
Tzeentch Prince Wings, Level 3, 2 Greater 1 Lesser Gifts, Robe
Slaanesh Prince Wings, Level 3, 2 Greater Gifts
Nurgle Prince Wings, Level 3, 2 Greater 1 Lesser Gift
Khorne Prince Wings, 2 Greater 1 Lesser Gift, Armor of Scorn
Usually it's standard to give the Endless Robe to the prince.
He probably ment that he wanted to ensure he got the D beam on the herald.
The Endless Grimoire grants its effect on the warlord, not on its bearer.
So as long as his prince is warlord, and generates all of its psychic from tzeentch's discipline the prince benefits by the Endless Grimoire the herald bears.
I thought you could take a max of 50 points of rewards per Prince? Two greaters, a lesser and AoScorne would be 65.
The Hellforged artifacts from Warzone Fenris do not count toward the point spent on the rewards.
timetowaste85 wrote: I thought you could take a max of 50 points of rewards per Prince? Two greaters, a lesser and AoScorne would be 65.
You can take up to 50 points of rewards/gifts, the new hellforged artifacts like AoScorn is neither and may be taken in addition to lesser/greater/exalted (but if you buy a hellforged artifact, you can't swap an exalted roll for grimoure or similar, because they're also hellforged artifacts and you can only have a max of 1 hellforged artifact per model)
Here is a wrinkle in the Endless Grimiore that might make it less appealing (if your local area plays this way): ML1 can only cast 1 power. So by making your WL ML1 to benefit from another model having the Endless Grimoire seems like a very inefficient use of points and rules: Yes I know all the Tzeencth powers, but I can only cast 1.
Again, though, this depends on how you interpret "The number of powers a psyker can attempt to cast depends on his Mastery Level". If you somehow still think a ML1 can cast more than 1 power, then this post is irrelevant and you can go about your business.
timetowaste85 wrote: I thought you could take a max of 50 points of rewards per Prince? Two greaters, a lesser and AoScorne would be 65.
The new hellforged artifacts go above the costs for rewards. It's a nice boost to tough models, like a Tzeentch prince who can now take The Impossible Robe, 2 greaters and 1 lesser.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jy2 wrote: It is impossible to take the Endless Robe, but you can take the Impossible Robes endlessly
That's awesome.
Also, if you will forgive the self-pimping...I wrote an article on the Infernal Tetrad here. Most of it is stuff we have already talked about, but I tried to summarize everything in the article.
Also, if you will forgive the self-pimping...I wrote an article on the Infernal Tetrad here. Most of it is stuff we have already talked about, but I tried to summarize everything in the article.
Great write up! 1 note though, you mention Paradox not being a good option for the Tzeentch Prince. I don't think you need to include that since Paradox if only for LoC & Heralds anyway.
Also, if you will forgive the self-pimping...I wrote an article on the Infernal Tetrad here. Most of it is stuff we have already talked about, but I tried to summarize everything in the article.
Great write up! 1 note though, you mention Paradox not being a good option for the Tzeentch Prince. I don't think you need to include that since Paradox if only for LoC & Heralds anyway.
I don't know what I would do without you guys to keep me honest
All right went 3 and 2. The first games was against on sec cent star was the scenario where holding the middle gets you bonus points for holding the middle. I killed all of his army off but the centstar and lost only 9 horrors. I lost because the centstar generated 20 points. Stupid draigo and eternal chapter master tanked all the wounds. By the time I finally got all the princes there was too late. The second game I played a battle company with pods in double kill points and eventually tabled him. He let me go first which allowed me to get all my spells up. The third game was against massive seer star and wraith knights. I took the bait and charged everybody into the powered up council. Forgot Baharroth gives them hit and run and fearless. He lost and hit and ran out of combat so the Knights could kill two princes and the council killed Belakor. We had enough time to replay where I stayed in the air and killed everything but the council and won 18 - 10. Last I played Grey Knights with an Imperial knight and Daemons. I d weaponed the knight vector struck Fateweaver and tabled him. Not counting the second game fiasco I only ever lost one Prince in two games. I am going to drop the armor on the Khorne guy as it makes him grav bait. He would always die.
timetowaste85 wrote: I thought you could take a max of 50 points of rewards per Prince? Two greaters, a lesser and AoScorne would be 65.
The new hellforged artifacts go above the costs for rewards. It's a nice boost to tough models, like a Tzeentch prince who can now take The Impossible Robe, 2 greaters and 1 lesser.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jy2 wrote: It is impossible to take the Endless Robe, but you can take the Impossible Robes endlessly
That's awesome.
Also, if you will forgive the self-pimping...I wrote an article on the Infernal Tetrad here. Most of it is stuff we have already talked about, but I tried to summarize everything in the article.
Great write up, I've been toying around with the Tetrad lately and your article gave me some great ideas! Thanks!
swanson4969 wrote: All right went 3 and 2. The first games was against on sec cent star was the scenario where holding the middle gets you bonus points for holding the middle. I killed all of his army off but the centstar and lost only 9 horrors. I lost because the centstar generated 20 points. Stupid draigo and eternal chapter master tanked all the wounds. By the time I finally got all the princes there was too late.
What were your princes doing during this time? Did you consider just slamming all 4 princes into the centstar?
swanson4969 wrote: The second game I played a battle company with pods in double kill points and eventually tabled him. He let me go first which allowed me to get all my spells up.
Was he trying to 'grav you' down? Were you just able to get shrouded up for the 2+ jink?
swanson4969 wrote: The third game was against massive seer star and wraith knights. I took the bait and charged everybody into the powered up council. Forgot Baharroth gives them hit and run and fearless. He lost and hit and ran out of combat so the Knights could kill two princes and the council killed Belakor. We had enough time to replay where I stayed in the air and killed everything but the council and won 18 - 10.
How did you hold objectives while swooping? Were you just using psychic shriek, or other offensive powers? Were you vector striking any bike squads as well?
Was the problem the double knights? Do you think you could have done well with only dealing with a single knight? Were you playing a guy named Jyson? That list sounds familiar....
swanson4969 wrote: Last I played Grey Knights with an Imperial knight and Daemons. I d weaponed the knight vector struck Fateweaver and tabled him.
Nice.
swanson4969 wrote: Not counting the second game fiasco I only ever lost one Prince in two games. I am going to drop the armor on the Khorne guy as it makes him grav bait. He would always die.
Nice. I lost a few more than that during my doubles tourney, but during the singles tourney I had the same thing. I lost one prince in two games and in the third I was tabled by double stormsurge.
IMHO, the armor of Scorn is still to good to give up, even with the risk of grav. Making the prince effectively toughness 7 is really, really good.
rabidguineapig wrote: Great write up, I've been toying around with the Tetrad lately and your article gave me some great ideas! Thanks!
In the first game he had a bunch of little stuff I had to go sort out first. I had finally got the a few of the princes into him at the end but he had eternal chapter master and draigo to suck up wounds.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In the second game he had a preponderance of grav. So I invised the Khorne Prince and swooped everyone else and just mulched everything as it came down.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The third game was pretty much hold objectives at the end so I just swooped, screamed, prismatic sprayed, and vector struck everything else to death. Was very nice I had ignore first perils so I could load up when need be. I had last turn so I just landed on five objectives to his one. The iron arm Slaanesh Prince was awesome as well.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm mildly interested in making a list based off these ideas, because the idea of a Prince of each mark + Belakor is pretty cool.
Are any of the artifacts outside the Scorn Armor and Robes worth it on the other Princes?
Not really any 'artifacts', but some 'rewards' are nice. The 6's to Hit are D axe is interesting, but the Armour of Scorn is just better. D-axe + regular Armour costs more that Armour of Scorn + lesser reward to get the Axe of Khorne.
Grotti the Nurgling is interesting for the Nurgle Prince, but you really need the other Princes to stay away from him. Sure the Nurgle Prince is the most self-sufficient Prince, but sometimes you need to tag-team a unit. Corruption is a nice weapon, but the Balesword and/or Plague Flail are more appealing options (and much cheaper).
Soulstealer for the Slaanesh Prince is really only good if you use the Slaanesh Prince in CC. Out of all the Princes, the Slaanesh one is the least durable (unless you roll Iron Arm) and the one you want to keep airborne popping Shriek & Lash of Despair,
Would there be any reason to roll the Slaanesh prince with Shriek+Slaanesh Powers? Specifically, if you take either a CAD with a Nurgle Herald or a Tallyband, and put the Bell on the Herald? IIRC, the powers are pretty decent, especially with army-wide -1 LD...
I've had the idea of using a tetrad + Warpflame host + Forgehost and giving the nurgle prince Grotti, and supporting him with soul grinders of tzeentch that deepstrike up field or if possible deploy normally while my Warpflame host shoots a bunch of stuff high str enough to instant death models that normally would have gotten a feel no pain save or normally would have had multiple wounds to chew through. Helps against necron RP as well. The Warpflame host stays out of charge range and Grotti range, while the soul grinders are unaffected and can team up with the nurgle prince in melee, or remove scary things/open metal bawkses with shooting while the nurgle prince does what he pleases.
I know this is only possible around 2500 pts, but what do you guys think of the tactic? I feel the tetrad + Forgehost is just too few models to really survive heavy shooting armies.
I'll be trying this list out against a friend in awhile, I'll post my results here.
Conversion tip for those who are thinking of running the Tetrad but haven't got the models yet: 2 DP kits can make all 4 Princes with a bit of extra attention.
There are more than enough arms, heads torso fronts, tabards, and "Flight" options (wings and the 'back vent' thingies) for 4 Princes. The trick is the legs and back torso bits.
The back torso is pretty easy, Using Green stuff or Hot glue, you can fill in the space between the front torso and wings (or back vents).
The Legs are a bit more tricky. I have seen people use Canrifex legs or Trygon tails etc, but this requires getting more bits. If you use your imagination (or google) I am sure you can come up with something.
I liked using the soulstealer Slaanesh prince myself. It made it easier to throw him into combats against big units because there was much less risk of him getting brought down by large numbers of attacks.
I am surprised about not running armor on the princes though. I was spending the first couple turns shrieking and I would have had to jink a lot if I hadn't had the armor to keep them alive. The last event I played at, only one of the 5 opponents even had grav and it was just on a couple units.
lessthanjeff wrote: I liked using the soulstealer Slaanesh prince myself. It made it easier to throw him into combats against big units because there was much less risk of him getting brought down by large numbers of attacks.
I am surprised about not running armor on the princes though. I was spending the first couple turns shrieking and I would have had to jink a lot if I hadn't had the armor to keep them alive. The last event I played at, only one of the 5 opponents even had grav and it was just on a couple units.
It's the same for me. People have different meta's where they live though. It's possible that where someone lives every other person is bringing a grav cent-star.
Is the impossible robe really must have? The chance that you can fail, and then be removed from play is too much for me. Even though the odds are against me, I'll be the person that does it. I like the melee weapon he can take, giving him fleshbane.
Out of interest, I think corruption looks epic for the nurgle prince, my meta has a lot of armies with single wraithknights, and chucking a model at him that doesn't even have to sound seems to good to turn down. Add in Be'Lakor or the Tzeench prince with fleshbane and I fancy dropping it in a turn. Perhaps this is just my meta though. I also tend to only see one storm surge.
I've found that the impossible robe is definitely worth taking, if you get cursed earth a lot of people won't even bother shooting at a 2++ re rollable prince. I think it's worth that small chance that he gets removed for the general durability of that invul.
Also got another game in yesterday with the Tetrad. I won't go into a ton of detail because it was a weird 2v2 game, but the dice were just not on my side. Warlord trait was +1 to invul so that was nice because it automatically made my Tzeentch prince a 2++. Turn 1 I swooped up with Be'Lakor to try to dominate and then Shriek a Wraithknight, but I rolled two 6's on the test, then a 1, and then 11 on 2D6 for the perils ld test. Well, there goes 350 pts before my opponent fires a shot - great start right!
Didn't do a ton of damage first turn, but got two wounds on the Wraithknight, killed a squad of BA scouts with my nurgle prince, and got off a couple of cursed earths to keep my princes alive. The following turn I took a wound or two but nothing major after a three storm Ravens came in (some BA formation rules with turn 1 reserves). Most things had run away from me so I ended up vector striking a bunch of stuff, killing a raven in the process, while also doing one more wound to the WK. My opponents turn rolls around and my opponent decides to snap fire at my now swooping tzeentch prince with the WK. He rolls two 6's to hit, and then another 6 on the D chart. There goes another 360 pts to ridiculous dice rolls.
Despite losing Be'lakor and my Tzeentch prince the remaining triad managed to kill the WK on my next then and then wreak havoc on my opponents back field, killing Eldrad, warp spiders, a serpent, a couple squads of tac marines, and some vauls support batteries. My teammate didn't have luck on his side with Nids either, so I didn't have enough of our backfield objectives to win the game (it was the 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4 objective marker game mode). Final score was 16-10 with maelstrom and objectives, and despite the awful luck the Tetrad put in a good showing and was able to force my opponent into a lot of running and hiding. Unfortunately we just didn't have the troops left at the end to grab the loads of objectives.
What are thoughts on best MC for an accompanying CAD?
Be'lakor is fluffy, and telepathy always good, but he's expensive for a DP stat line that doesn't benefit from formation bonuses.
I like Fateweaver for his Swiss Army knife versatility and 4 WC. Even without the warlord trait his once a turn reroll is amazing. But as people point out he needs to use up WC that could help other places or he doesn't do much.
GUO just seems too slow.
Thirsters are okay, but the D thirster seems best of them and it needs too much support.
KoS with Soulstealet could be good. Doesn't fly but Daemon of Slaanesh is still pretty mobile and regaining wounds adds nice durability.
LoC is pretty mobile and beaty as well. Add Paradox for a guaranteed summon or 3WC Flickering Fire as an extra perk.
Ok. Perhaps I can see it's worth for the 3++. But I like the idea of fleshbane on him. The ability to have fleshbane on two princes (including Be'Lakor) and with corruption on the nurgle prince the WK's and Storm surges I'm guaranteed to run into are going to hopefully be mincemeat before they get a chance to do anything. That's kind of the hope anyway.
So this is what I'm thinking. It's built as such as this is what I own. I'm returning to the daemons codex, so some of these choices might not be optimal as its been a while and I've just got my hands on the wulfen book. So help/advice on what powers to roll for and relics to go for would be appreciated.
Tetrad
Khorne Prince, wings, armour of scorn, 2 greater, 1 lesser
Tzeench Prince, wings, armour, ML3, 2 greater, 1 lesser, soul bane
Slannesh Prince, wings, armour, ML3, 2 greater, 1 lesser, soul stealer (thought about the mark of excess)
Nurgle Prince, wings, armour, ML3, 2 greater, 1 lesser, corruption
It's 1845 points. I'll be running it soon. But I could with your guys help to tinker with it. Also, I don't really want to be summoning. So cursed earth is unlikely. I'm feeling telepathy and biomancy, but I like the new powers trees in the codex. I'm thinking Tzeench prince as warlord as all but the number 6 seem decent. Help!!!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Belakor doesn't need to benefit though. He already has EW, an MC weapon, and has plenty of Warp Charges for distribution.
True. No question he is a GOOD option, but he is more expensive than the GDs for a generally worse stat line in a list that already eats up points like crazy. His wargear, abilities, and general consitency may be worth the additional cost. Just opening the door for other possibile considerations.
jy2 wrote: It is impossible to take the Endless Robe, but you can take the Impossible Robes endlessly
That's awesome.
Also, if you will forgive the self-pimping...I wrote an article on the Infernal Tetrad here. Most of it is stuff we have already talked about, but I tried to summarize everything in the article.
Thanks for taking the time to write the article.
Ok, here are some comments/additional tactics:
Balesword: This is a great upgrade for a Nurgle Prince. It is what will give him a fighting chance against D-thirsters, Wraithknights, riptides and other multi-wound enemies. It'll also work great against the Stormsurge. It does D3 Wounds on any failed saves and they don't get their FNP's. He may actually kill a SS in 1 turn of combat! Give him Warp Speed on top of that and the chances of him killing the Surge in 1 go is really good. Definitely highly recommended against more elitist armies, especially the ones with multiple multi-wound models.
Grimoire: Is it necessary in a Infernal Tetrad army? That depends. It is useful against armies that can ignore cover (i.e. Tau, Centstars), armies with strong assault elements (i.e. D-thirsters, Imperial Knights, Wulfen, Canoptek Wraiths) and deathstar armies. In essence, it is always useful especially in competitive play because most competitive armies will include aspects of their army where the Grimoire can be useful against. Worst-case scenario, you can run around with 2 near-invincible units as opposed to only just 1. Is it absolutely mandatory? No, but I definitely recommend it, even for an Infernal Tetrad build. Also, consider taking Fateweaver if you plan on taking the Grimoire. In additional to being just a great all-around force-multiplier, Fateweaver also makes the Grimoire much more reliable.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Khaine's Wrath wrote: Ok. Perhaps I can see it's worth for the 3++. But I like the idea of fleshbane on him. The ability to have fleshbane on two princes (including Be'Lakor) and with corruption on the nurgle prince the WK's and Storm surges I'm guaranteed to run into are going to hopefully be mincemeat before they get a chance to do anything. That's kind of the hope anyway.
So this is what I'm thinking. It's built as such as this is what I own. I'm returning to the daemons codex, so some of these choices might not be optimal as its been a while and I've just got my hands on the wulfen book. So help/advice on what powers to roll for and relics to go for would be appreciated.
Tetrad
Khorne Prince, wings, armour of scorn, 2 greater, 1 lesser
Tzeench Prince, wings, armour, ML3, 2 greater, 1 lesser, soul bane
Slannesh Prince, wings, armour, ML3, 2 greater, 1 lesser, soul stealer (thought about the mark of excess)
Nurgle Prince, wings, armour, ML3, 2 greater, 1 lesser, corruption
It's 1845 points. I'll be running it soon. But I could with your guys help to tinker with it. Also, I don't really want to be summoning. So cursed earth is unlikely. I'm feeling telepathy and biomancy, but I like the new powers trees in the codex. I'm thinking Tzeench prince as warlord as all but the number 6 seem decent. Help!!!
Drop the Lesser Gifts on the Slaanesh and Nurgle Princes and then upgrade Soulbane for the Impossible Robes on the Tzeentch Prince.
Any reason why you are running bloodletters? Is it because of personal preference? Otherwise, I'd recommend swapping them out for 11+ Pink Horrors to act as a Warp battery. You're going to need it to buff up all of your FMC's.
Khaine's Wrath wrote: Is the impossible robe really must have? The chance that you can fail, and then be removed from play is too much for me. Even though the odds are against me, I'll be the person that does it. I like the melee weapon he can take, giving him fleshbane.
It's really good. This is because it's pretty common to get that save reduced to a 2+ with something like Cursed Earth, a warlord trait, or the warp storm table.
Fleshbane is not as important for the Tzeentch prince as he will be swinging at STR 9 anyway with the Staff of Change -- the 10 point item that grants +2 STR. He will be wounding wraithknights on a 3+ instead of a 2+. That's not much of a difference.
Khaine's Wrath wrote: Out of interest, I think corruption looks epic for the nurgle prince, my meta has a lot of armies with single wraithknights, and chucking a model at him that doesn't even have to sound seems to good to turn down. Add in Be'Lakor or the Tzeench prince with fleshbane and I fancy dropping it in a turn. Perhaps this is just my meta though. I also tend to only see one storm surge.
Your best bet is to psychic shriek a stormsurge. If you are going to assault it, go in with 3-4 princes.
In all my games with Tetrads (about 12 so far), Stormsurges have been the biggest problems, followed closely by wraithknights. It's not that the stormsurges can hurt my princes with their fists, it's all about the stomps.
@ Labmouse42: Have you tried the Balesword against a StormSurge? Doing D3 wounds per failed Invul save that ignores FNP seems like enough to kill a Stormsurge with just the Nurgle Prince. Especially good since the Nurgle Prince's S7 will be naturally wounding T6 on 3+ AND getting poison re-rolls to wound. Check the rules, the GMC rule about poison doesn't change this, it only says that poison wounds on 6+, unless you would naturally wound on a better value (which the NP does).
You don't need the armor on really any of them except for the Khorne Prince. The Nurgle Prince has innate shrouding. Anything that is wounding your toughness five probably ignores your armor. The Slaanesh Prince should be swooping and shooting. Belakor gets shrouding and the Tzeentch Prince has the robe. Belakor is better than Fatey imho. He hands out shrouding, is eternal warrior, has armor bane and flesh bane and don't forget shriek and invis. Plus he can come down and do work if need be.
It's 1845 points. I'll be running it soon. But I could with your guys help to tinker with it. Also, I don't really want to be summoning. So cursed earth is unlikely. I'm feeling telepathy and biomancy, but I like the new powers trees in the codex. I'm thinking Tzeench prince as warlord as all but the number 6 seem decent. Help!!!
Can't have an allied detachment with the same codex as your primary (unless you're Marines or houseruled). Can get Be'lakor and some cultists as Allies though, or drop the letters for 2X Min nurglings.
swanson4969 wrote: Anything that is wounding your toughness five probably ignores your armor.
Except for scatter lasers or smart missile systems. It all depends on your meta, but it seems like every other bloody list I face has one of those two.
Edit : Corrected FNP Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galef wrote: @ Labmouse42: Have you tried the Balesword against a StormSurge? Doing D3 wounds per failed Invul save that ignores FNP seems like enough to kill a Stormsurge with just the Nurgle Prince. Especially good since the Nurgle Prince's S7 will be naturally wounding T6 on 3+ AND getting poison re-rolls to wound. Check the rules, the GMC rule about poison doesn't change this, it only says that poison wounds on 6+, unless you would naturally wound on a better value (which the NP does).
That's a good thought. Lets check the mathhammer on it.
(7/9 to hit) * (8/9 to wound) * (1/2 failed invun) = 35% of wounding per swing.
This means that every round of combat you can expect to get about ~2.3 wounds done to the stormsurge since each 'wound' will do D3 wounds. It will take ~4 rounds to kill the stormsurge, depending on luck or other targets engaged with it.
Each round the stormsurge will drop ~2 stomps on the prince, and if either one gets a 6 the prince is removed from play. The chances of getting a 6 on either dice 11/36 or ~30.5%. Odds are the stormsurge will still stomp out the prince before it dies. If your luck is like mine, the Nurgle, Tzeentch and Khorne prince will all get stomped out
That said, those are better odds than most. I think if my opponent is bringing a wraithknight without a Dsword that Nurgle prince should do some heavy work. The difference is the 4++ on the stormsurge and the extra wounds that are a problem.
That's a good thought. Lets check the mathhammer on it.
(7/9 to hit) * (8/9 to wound) * (1/2 failed invun) * (2/3 failed FNP) = 23% of wounding per swing.
This means that every round of combat you can expect to get about ~2.3 wounds done to the stormsurge since each 'wound' will do D3 wounds. It will take ~4 rounds to kill the stormsurge, depending on luck or other targets engaged with it.
Each round the stormsurge will drop ~2 stomps on the prince, and if either one gets a 6 the prince is removed from play. The chances of getting a 6 on either dice 11/36 or ~30.5%. Odds are the stormsurge will still stomp out the prince before it dies. If your luck is like mine, the Nurgle, Tzeentch and Khorne prince will all get stomped out
I'm not sure how you got that math. I may not be aware of some special rule the SS has, but if it is only T6 with a 4++, Nurgle Prince charges, goes first, 6 atx, 5 should hit (3+ to hit, re-rolling 1's) 4-5 should wound (3+ re-rolling). SS should save 2 of those, leaving 2-3 wounds. If the average on D3 is 2, you just dealt 4-6 wounds to that SS. That's an average roll. If you roll even slight above average (or the Tau player fails more saves) DEAD StormSurge before stomps.
I also play Eldar with a WK and I find stomps to be unreliable. I usually only get 1 stomp and rare do I roll the '6'. You must have had some unlucky games.
Galef wrote: @ Labmouse42: Have you tried the Balesword against a StormSurge? Doing D3 wounds per failed Invul save that ignores FNP seems like enough to kill a Stormsurge with just the Nurgle Prince. Especially good since the Nurgle Prince's S7 will be naturally wounding T6 on 3+ AND getting poison re-rolls to wound. Check the rules, the GMC rule about poison doesn't change this, it only says that poison wounds on 6+, unless you would naturally wound on a better value (which the NP does).
That's a good thought. Lets check the mathhammer on it.
(7/9 to hit) * (8/9 to wound) * (1/2 failed invun) * (2/3 failed FNP) = 23% of wounding per swing.
This means that every round of combat you can expect to get about ~2.3 wounds done to the stormsurge since each 'wound' will do D3 wounds. It will take ~4 rounds to kill the stormsurge, depending on luck or other targets engaged with it.
Each round the stormsurge will drop ~2 stomps on the prince, and if either one gets a 6 the prince is removed from play. The chances of getting a 6 on either dice 11/36 or ~30.5%. Odds are the stormsurge will still stomp out the prince before it dies. If your luck is like mine, the Nurgle, Tzeentch and Khorne prince will all get stomped out
That said, those are better odds than most. I think if my opponent is bringing a wraithknight without a Dsword that Nurgle prince should do some heavy work. The difference is the 4++ on the stormsurge and the extra wounds that are a problem.
No FNP against attacks that causes ID.
It should be 7/9 x 8/9 x 1/2 = 35% x 6 attacks (on the charge) x 2 wounds average = 4.15W. The DP should kill the SS in about 2 rounds of combat.
Galef wrote: I'm not sure how you got that math. I may not be aware of some special rule the SS has, but if it is only T6 with a 4++, Nurgle Prince charges, goes first, 6 atx, 5 should hit (3+ to hit, re-rolling 1's) 4-5 should wound (3+ re-rolling).
That's how you get 7/9 * 8/9. Those are pretty good odds.
Galef wrote: SS should save 2 of those, leaving 2-3 wounds.
That's not quite how mitigation works. You multiply all the elements of mitigation together. jy2 adjusted for the FNP removal leaving a 35% of delivering a wound per swing -- which is pretty darn good all things considered.
Something as simple as a 5+ FNP actually increases the 'Time to Live' of a unit by 50%. You might just think "Oh, that's 1/3 more wounds" but it has a greater effect than that. I've got an article I'm writing up on that concept I'll IM you.
Galef wrote: I also play Eldar with a WK and I find stomps to be unreliable. I usually only get 1 stomp and rare do I roll the '6'. You must have had some unlucky games.
I admit I've had some bad luck, such as when I had 3 princes stomped out in 2 turns, but a 30% of stomping out of existence every round of combat are not odds you want to be dealing with.
jy2 wrote: It should be 7/9 x 8/9 x 1/2 = 35% x 6 attacks (on the charge) x 2 wounds average = 4.15W. The DP should kill the SS in about 2 rounds of combat.
I agree with your math.
There are a few exceptions. You will likely be charged by the stormsurge, not the other way around. If your squaring off 20" apart trying to get the 'perfect charge distance" the stormsurge will be happy to keep shooting at your prince. This is because the prince has limited firing.
On the other hand, the prince will be shrieking the stormsurge, which can take off wounds before the assault begins. You also might be assaulting with the Khorne prince who ID's on 6s.
If you are allowing a SS to make FNP from an ID wound, you are letting them break the rules. GMCs may only take D3 wound from ID, but ID wounds always ignore FNP.
Which is why you should be taking the Balesword in EVERY game against a WK or SS. A couple wounds from Shriek and the Nurgle Prince can finish him in CC before stomps
jy2 wrote: It should be 7/9 x 8/9 x 1/2 = 35% x 6 attacks (on the charge) x 2 wounds average = 4.15W. The DP should kill the SS in about 2 rounds of combat.
I agree with your math.
There are a few exceptions. You will likely be charged by the stormsurge, not the other way around. If your squaring off 20" apart trying to get the 'perfect charge distance" the stormsurge will be happy to keep shooting at your prince. This is because the prince has limited firing.
On the other hand, the prince will be shrieking the stormsurge, which can take off wounds before the assault begins. You also might be assaulting with the Khorne prince who ID's on 6s.
That is true. The SS can very likely charge the DP.
OR....he could just forgo the +1 bonus attack (that's hitting on 5's!) and shoot twice at the DP instead (and with Markerlight support).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galef wrote: If you are allowing a SS to make FNP from an ID wound, you are letting them break the rules. GMCs may only take D3 wound from ID, but ID wounds always ignore FNP.
Which is why you should be taking the Balesword in EVERY game against a WK or SS. A couple wounds from Shriek and the Nurgle Prince can finish him in CC before stomps
--
He made a mistake with the FNP. I corrected him. It's all good now.
So, I'm looking at making up a Tetrad+Incurion list for my eventual daemons army, and I decided to take a look at the new psychic powers. I really like the look of the Slaanesh powers, especially with the Doomsday Bell in the Tallyband. Do you guys think there is any way to effectively run the Slaanesh
prince with the Excess powers, or is it not worth the hassle? I feel like 1-2 Biomancy, then filling with Slaanesh should be fine, but I wanted to ask before I start theory crafting more.
Dunno when i'm going to get to, I'm gonna see if my friend who's constantly asking for 40k games will let me do some proxy work to run a test game with the incursion because I'm tired of SM VS BA every game . What size is the base if a Prince? I might be able to use my Perturabo as a Slaanesh prince to atleast test out the powers...
Swampmist wrote: Dunno when i'm going to get to, I'm gonna see if my friend who's constantly asking for 40k games will let me do some proxy work to run a test game with the incursion because I'm tired of SM VS BA every game . What size is the base if a Prince? I might be able to use my Perturabo as a Slaanesh prince to atleast test out the powers...
A prince is roughly the same size as a marine dreadnought. Just use those as proxies, with a different colored dice at each one to designate what god they represent.
Swampmist wrote: Dunno when i'm going to get to, I'm gonna see if my friend who's constantly asking for 40k games will let me do some proxy work to run a test game with the incursion because I'm tired of SM VS BA every game . What size is the base if a Prince? I might be able to use my Perturabo as a Slaanesh prince to atleast test out the powers...
A prince is roughly the same size as a marine dreadnought. Just use those as proxies, with a different colored dice at each one to designate what god they represent.
Ah, good enough! Perturabo has the same base size, so I have options. will post my trial list here, probably having to have to go bigger than the 1850 lists I'm writing as he wants to play a 4k game whenever I get back to the shop
i just have a doubt about warp storm and this kind of list. Playing demons since years i experimented how much a bad rolls on warp storm can cripple that list, was no unusual for me lost a DP 1st turn for a 3 on warp storm table, so uhmmm i dont know, play them without fateweaver and where i play we play at 1650-1700pts and fatey cant fit into it.
blackmage wrote: i just have a doubt about warp storm and this kind of list. Playing demons since years i experimented how much a bad rolls on warp storm can cripple that list, was no unusual for me lost a DP 1st turn for a 3 on warp storm table, so uhmmm i dont know, play them without fateweaver and where i play we play at 1650-1700pts and fatey cant fit into it.
If you run full Daemonic Incursion you can add or subtract 1 from your Warp Storm rolls - it gets you out of trouble more often than not.
blackmage wrote: i just have a doubt about warp storm and this kind of list. Playing demons since years i experimented how much a bad rolls on warp storm can cripple that list, was no unusual for me lost a DP 1st turn for a 3 on warp storm table, so uhmmm i dont know, play them without fateweaver and where i play we play at 1650-1700pts and fatey cant fit into it.
If you run full Daemonic Incursion you can add or subtract 1 from your Warp Storm rolls - it gets you out of trouble more often than not.
I would do this instead of running FW. As I have mentioned before, FW doesn't jive well with the Tetrad since he takes away from them rather than giving anything (he needs more WC than he brings and wants to be WL, taking away the best rule of the Tetrad).
If running the Tetrad competitively, I highly recommend the Tallyband to make it an Incursion list. It gets you plenty of objective grabbers, is cheap, provides Warp Storm manipulation that is arguably better than FW, and gives the Tetrad re-roll Instability checks.
I play the Tetrad in casual list, so I am a fan of bringing Belakor for fluff.
If running the Tetrad competitively, I highly recommend the Tallyband to make it an Incursion list. It gets you plenty of objective grabbers, is cheap, provides Warp Storm manipulation that is arguably better than FW, and gives the Tetrad re-roll Instability checks.
Alternatively, (this was suggested to me in a different thread) you could take the warpflame host with exalted flamers. It is 135pts more expensive than the tetrad but you do get 9 models who can sit on objectives and spue out 9xd3 Str10 Ap2 shots every turn. It is less models than the Tetrad but it can do a bit more.
jy2 wrote: Grimoire: Is it necessary in a Infernal Tetrad army? That depends. It is useful against armies that can ignore cover (i.e. Tau, Centstars), armies with strong assault elements (i.e. D-thirsters, Imperial Knights, Wulfen, Canoptek Wraiths) and deathstar armies. In essence, it is always useful especially in competitive play because most competitive armies will include aspects of their army where the Grimoire can be useful against. Worst-case scenario, you can run around with 2 near-invincible units as opposed to only just 1. Is it absolutely mandatory? No, but I definitely recommend it, even for an Infernal Tetrad build. Also, consider taking Fateweaver if you plan on taking the Grimoire. In additional to being just a great all-around force-multiplier, Fateweaver also makes the Grimoire much more reliable.
The problem with Grimoire as I try to put together a Tetrad list is trying to figure out where to put it. All the DPs really want 2 Greater Rewards for survivability which prevents any of them from taking it. I'm not sure where you could drop a greater that wouldn't lose more in survivability than it brings. Fateweaver really helps Grimoire consistency, but he can't be the one to take if you do that (and it opens up the discussion about whether he brings enough to the table over other options). Any of the Greater Daemons probably benefit more from the 2xGreater Reward. A Herald seems like the only real choice, but that means probably putting him on a mount to keep up with the rest of the list and almost definitely devoting points to some unit for him to hide, which is a pretty hefty point investment.
TLDR - Grimoire of True Names sounds great, but who takes it?
blackmage wrote: i just have a doubt about warp storm and this kind of list. Playing demons since years i experimented how much a bad rolls on warp storm can cripple that list, was no unusual for me lost a DP 1st turn for a 3 on warp storm table, so uhmmm i dont know, play them without fateweaver and where i play we play at 1650-1700pts and fatey cant fit into it.
That's a reasonable doubt. If you are really worried about this, run a Daemonic Incursion. Being able to shift the result one pip has a huge effect on your game, and being able to reroll daemonic instability tests is huge.
I'll post more on this later. That's the subject of my next essay.
Galef was right on the money. A tallyband works really well with the Tetrad.
blackmage wrote: i just have a doubt about warp storm and this kind of list. Playing demons since years i experimented how much a bad rolls on warp storm can cripple that list, was no unusual for me lost a DP 1st turn for a 3 on warp storm table, so uhmmm i dont know, play them without fateweaver and where i play we play at 1650-1700pts and fatey cant fit into it.
If you run full Daemonic Incursion you can add or subtract 1 from your Warp Storm rolls - it gets you out of trouble more often than not.
but at 1650-1700 very hard squeeze tallyband into.
Automatically Appended Next Post: i think i will go with Tz herald 3° level+paradox and 2x11 horrors to play tetrad, may i ask why lash of despair with Sl prince the weapon has np ap
i think i will go with Tz herald 3° level+paradox and 2x11 horrors to play tetrad, may i ask why lash of despair with Sl prince the weapon has np ap
It is on average a fairly large number of shots at at least DP strength. Works with Iron Arm if you roll it and absolutely eats through vehicles (or anything else with AV).
blackmage wrote: i just have a doubt about warp storm and this kind of list. Playing demons since years i experimented how much a bad rolls on warp storm can cripple that list, was no unusual for me lost a DP 1st turn for a 3 on warp storm table, so uhmmm i dont know, play them without fateweaver and where i play we play at 1650-1700pts and fatey cant fit into it.
If you run full Daemonic Incursion you can add or subtract 1 from your Warp Storm rolls - it gets you out of trouble more often than not.
but at 1650-1700 very hard squeeze tallyband into.
Automatically Appended Next Post: i think i will go with Tz herald 3° level+paradox and 2x11 horrors to play tetrad, may i ask why lash of despair with Sl prince the weapon has np ap
That's very true, you definitely need 1850 to effectively run the Tetrad + a Tallyband. At that point level I think no matter what you do, you'll find that something you want is missing. The fully kitted tetrad is about 1300-1310 points so unless you ditch some of their goodies it leaves you with 3-400 points to play with. If you run Fateweaver for his warlord trait, you're missing out on one of the best parts of the Tetrad - the four way tzeentch warlord trait. If you run it without Fatey, you have to worry about the warp storm table more than usual. To get the cheapest possible Tallyband you're looking at about 395 points including the Daemon Flock as an auxiliary choice to complete the Daemonic Incursion, so you'd need to get your Tetrad down between 1250-1300
My idea at 1700 would be:
Tallyband (360):
Herald with no upgrades
7x Nurglings
Tetrad (1305):
Khorne Prince (GR, GR, LR, Armour of Scorn, Wings)
Nurgle Prince (GR, GR, ML3, Armor, Wings)
Slaanesh Prince (GR, GR, ML3, Armor, Wings)
Tzeentch Prince (GR, GR, LR, ML3, Robes, Wings) - WL
Daemon Flock (35):
5x Furies
1700 on the dot. This way you still have kitted out Princes, along with a whole crapload of backfield objective grabbers (assuming you have 7 squads of nurglings haha). On top of that you get the warp storm table modifier, and the sweet Tzeentch warlord traits. If you drop down to 1650, I'd take the lesser reward off of the Khorne prince and the armor off of the Nurgle and Slaanesh princes. That way you can just give the Slaanesh prince the lash and fly him around, while just jinking with the nurgle prince until he gets into combat. Just avoid tarpit units unless you have cursed earth or iron arm.
jy2 wrote: Grimoire: Is it necessary in a Infernal Tetrad army? That depends. It is useful against armies that can ignore cover (i.e. Tau, Centstars), armies with strong assault elements (i.e. D-thirsters, Imperial Knights, Wulfen, Canoptek Wraiths) and deathstar armies. In essence, it is always useful especially in competitive play because most competitive armies will include aspects of their army where the Grimoire can be useful against. Worst-case scenario, you can run around with 2 near-invincible units as opposed to only just 1. Is it absolutely mandatory? No, but I definitely recommend it, even for an Infernal Tetrad build. Also, consider taking Fateweaver if you plan on taking the Grimoire. In additional to being just a great all-around force-multiplier, Fateweaver also makes the Grimoire much more reliable.
The problem with Grimoire as I try to put together a Tetrad list is trying to figure out where to put it. All the DPs really want 2 Greater Rewards for survivability which prevents any of them from taking it. I'm not sure where you could drop a greater that wouldn't lose more in survivability than it brings. Fateweaver really helps Grimoire consistency, but he can't be the one to take if you do that (and it opens up the discussion about whether he brings enough to the table over other options). Any of the Greater Daemons probably benefit more from the 2xGreater Reward. A Herald seems like the only real choice, but that means probably putting him on a mount to keep up with the rest of the list and almost definitely devoting points to some unit for him to hide, which is a pretty hefty point investment.
TLDR - Grimoire of True Names sounds great, but who takes it?
Why, on the least close combat one, of course. The Slaanesh one would be the perfect candidate. She isn't as resilient as the other 3 and so would be better off swooping. She's also got (or can get) Lash so she'd be perfect just flying around, buffing the other princes and then shooting the enemy with both regular and psychic shooting. I'd go 1 attempt at Telepathy for Invis/Shrouding or Shriek, 1 attempt at Biomancy for Iron Arm/shooty power and 1 attempt for either Cursed Earth/Summoning or a Slaanesh power. Of course she can always land to help out with assaults, but if it is too dangerous, she can help out from the air.
jy2 wrote: Grimoire: Is it necessary in a Infernal Tetrad army? That depends. It is useful against armies that can ignore cover (i.e. Tau, Centstars), armies with strong assault elements (i.e. D-thirsters, Imperial Knights, Wulfen, Canoptek Wraiths) and deathstar armies. In essence, it is always useful especially in competitive play because most competitive armies will include aspects of their army where the Grimoire can be useful against. Worst-case scenario, you can run around with 2 near-invincible units as opposed to only just 1. Is it absolutely mandatory? No, but I definitely recommend it, even for an Infernal Tetrad build. Also, consider taking Fateweaver if you plan on taking the Grimoire. In additional to being just a great all-around force-multiplier, Fateweaver also makes the Grimoire much more reliable.
The problem with Grimoire as I try to put together a Tetrad list is trying to figure out where to put it. All the DPs really want 2 Greater Rewards for survivability which prevents any of them from taking it. I'm not sure where you could drop a greater that wouldn't lose more in survivability than it brings. Fateweaver really helps Grimoire consistency, but he can't be the one to take if you do that (and it opens up the discussion about whether he brings enough to the table over other options). Any of the Greater Daemons probably benefit more from the 2xGreater Reward. A Herald seems like the only real choice, but that means probably putting him on a mount to keep up with the rest of the list and almost definitely devoting points to some unit for him to hide, which is a pretty hefty point investment.
TLDR - Grimoire of True Names sounds great, but who takes it?
Why, on the least close combat one, of course. The Slaanesh one would be the perfect candidate. She isn't as resilient as the other 3 and so would be better off swooping. She's also got (or can get) Lash so she'd be perfect just flying around, buffing the other princes and then shooting the enemy with both regular and psychic shooting. I'd go 1 attempt at Telepathy for Invis/Shrouding or Shriek, 1 attempt at Biomancy for Iron Arm/shooty power and 1 attempt for either Cursed Earth/Summoning or a Slaanesh power. Of course she can always land to help out with assaults, but if it is too dangerous, she can help out from the air.
That leaves it with no defensive rewards that apply to itself (since Grim can't target the bearer. Is just swooping and armor enough to keep it alive?
Yeah, basically. It can also land to assault isolated units, backfield units or particular targets where a retalitorial counter-strike is minimal.
IMO, they can't all be unstoppable assault juggernauts. Each DP needs a role for the army to gel. Nurgle, Khorne and Tzeentch are pretty darn resilient and so can take the brunt of the enemy's offense. With Slaanesh being more fragile, you need to play her with a little more finesse and not just shove her down the enemy's throat. Hence, her role as shooter/support unit/part-time assaulter makes sense, at least to me.
LValx wrote: You can always use the Grimoire in movement, run off the board then come back on next turn and use it to keep the Slaanesh prince safe.
Grimoire is too good not to take if you are running Fateweaver..
Flying off the board with ANY of the Princes is a very bad, awful, horrible idea. The rest of your Princes will only be T5. The Formation bonuses work when the number of Princes is "On the board".
My issue with Grimoire isn't just who takes it, but who do you use it on? Typically you are casting Grimiore on a big unit like Screamers, FleshHounds, Seekers, etc. Something that has a big footprint and can handle a failed Grimoire by turboboosting or running into cover. In a Tetrad list, you will most likely be casting on a DP and even with a FW re-roll, a failed Grimoire will be devastating to that DP.
Alternatively, players use the Grimoire on FW, which again begs the question as to why you have FW in a Tetrad list. FW should support the Tetrad, but instead keeps taking away from them.
LValx wrote: You can always use the Grimoire in movement, run off the board then come back on next turn and use it to keep the Slaanesh prince safe.
Grimoire is too good not to take if you are running Fateweaver..
Flying off the board with ANY of the Princes is a very bad, awful, horrible idea. The rest of your Princes will only be T5. The Formation bonuses work when the number of Princes is "On the board".
My issue with Grimoire isn't just who takes it, but who do you use it on? Typically you are casting Grimiore on a big unit like Screamers, FleshHounds, Seekers, etc. Something that has a big footprint and can handle a failed Grimoire by turboboosting or running into cover. In a Tetrad list, you will most likely be casting on a DP and even with a FW re-roll, a failed Grimoire will be devastating to that DP.
Alternatively, players use the Grimoire on FW, which again begs the question as to why you have FW in a Tetrad list. FW should support the Tetrad, but instead keeps taking away from them.
--
Generally, I'd put the Grimoire on the Khorne Prince, assuming the opponent does not have a way to ignore the Nurgle Prince's 2+ shrouded cover. BTW, you use the Grimoire before you move the target DP. This way, if you fail, you can try to hide him behind BLOS terrain and in the extreme case, let him swoop for a turn. But if he's already moved, then he's just a sitting duck.
I almost never put the Grimoire on Fatey. If you do it right, you shouldn't have to against all but the most extreme lists (i.e.Tau with Skyfire on all of their riptides, a 4-5 flyrant Tyranid list, etc). Swoop him forwards against armies with little or no Skyfire. Keep him near the board edges or behind BLOS terrain against armies with some Skyfire, or fly him off the table against extreme Skyfire armies (like the ones above). One good trick with Fatey is to swoop him near the board edges, blast the enemy with Psychic shooting and then run him off the table in the Shooting phase.
jy2 wrote: One good trick with Fatey is to swoop him near the board edges, blast the enemy with Psychic shooting and then run him off the table in the Shooting phase.
Can you do that? I thought you could only fly off the board in the movement phase.
Yes, as long as he is in swooping mode, you can "run" him off the table in the Shooting phase. Don't forget that he runs 2D6" while swooping and he can only move in a straight line. Thus, he has to be facing the board edge in order to run him off.
jy2 wrote: Generally, I'd put the Grimoire on the Khorne Prince, assuming the opponent does not have a way to ignore the Nurgle Prince's 2+ shrouded cover.
If you were planning to Grim the Khorne prince would you still go Armor of Scorn for him or pick up one of the other artefacts? The strength reduction on attacks is still nice, but he'd have 3++ or better with Grim so the armor save would do nothing but open him up as a grav target most turns.
jy2 wrote: Generally, I'd put the Grimoire on the Khorne Prince, assuming the opponent does not have a way to ignore the Nurgle Prince's 2+ shrouded cover.
If you were planning to Grim the Khorne prince would you still go Armor of Scorn for him or pick up one of the other artefacts? The strength reduction on attacks is still nice, but he'd have 3++ or better with Grim so the armor save would do nothing but open him up as a grav target most turns.
Keep the Armor of Scorn. It is still useful to all but Grav. Grimoire protects against AP1-3 shooting, but the majority of the shooting will be small-medium (S6) arms fire. Against those, the Armor is much better due to the increased Toughness.
blackmage wrote: yes but then only 9+d6wc average 12 you think that is enough?
To be honest the only powers you NEED to get off are maybe cursed earth, shrouding, or something good you roll on biomancy which are all WC1. If you only need 3-4 powers max all at WC1 then 9+D6 should be doable I think. Your plan should really be to get up close and beat the crap out of people. Flying circus style doesn't work well with the Tetrad from what I've read/experienced - get the few psychic buffs you need and then punch someone's lights out in CC.
Edit: Maybe Iron Arm is WC2 but I never roll it anyway... But still, not too much you need to rely on in the psychic phase with the Tetrad.
someome tried tetrad against armies like gladius or mono drop marines? how it works? thanks, i m still undecided if play a straight demon list with fatey+Loc+belakor and knight or infernal tetrad so i m gathering infos.
blackmage wrote: someome tried tetrad against armies like gladius or mono drop marines? how it works? thanks, i m still undecided if play a straight demon list with fatey+Loc+belakor and knight or infernal tetrad so i m gathering infos.
I think the sheer number of units in a Gladius will make it hard for the Tetrad. You would need to roll quite a few more witchfires to try to pop more than a few units per Prince per turn, otherwise a smart opponent will just speedbump the Tetrad and win on objectives. The brightside is that the Primaris for Tzeencth, Slaanesh and Nurgle are already really good against Rhino/Razorback/MSU Marines spam.
blackmage wrote: and what about who play drop pods kind of gladius with many units with obj sec.? anyway steam of corruption do nothing against veichles he have str 0
but it murders marines. It's probably pretty good against pod lists as such; they all have to get out after they drop so they will just get eaten by the poison.
Against BC, you NEED shooting. Otherwise, you lose unless you're playing strictly Kill Point missions. You need ways to de-mech your opponents other than just assault. It is here where the shooty Slaanesh Prince and Fatey will help the army the most. Their jobs are to destroy as many vehicles as possible with shooting so that your other princes have targets for their assaults. It'll still be an uphill battle against Gladius Battle Company in objectives missions but at least it won't be an auto-lose battle.
Also, against armies like BC, you need bodies. This is where 1) Tallyband can be really useful and 2) Summoning will help you out a lot. While not ObSec, those extra bodies will be useful to eat Overwatch, help de-mech enemy vehicles (for Summoned units, not for Nurglings) and to tarpit enemy units so as to minimize their return fire against the Princes. Against those armies, you need either shooting or more bodies in order to have a fighting chance. Otherwise, it is almost an auto-lose in objectives-based missions against Battle Company.
And Kairos is also a big BIG help against BC. At least 3 witchfires able to hurt tanks plus the ability to summon the flamer chariot (potential triple-tap lascan or mini-baleflamer anyone ?) is just invaluable.
I wish we could fit a Tallyband + Kairos + Tetrad :-(
I don't know at Adepticon I really liked Belakor. The auto invis and shrouding were awesome. Plus he can be a pretty decent combat monster himself. The little herald and horrors just hid and summoned. Plus that allowed me to ensure getting the d shot on the Prince as needed. A couple of times I was able to get sacrifice on the horrors which made Belakor even more effective. Nothing like having -1 leadership for terrify, dominate and shriek with the Nurgle herald ringing the bell.
You can't with a tetrad, but you can if you just want to bring another greater daemon or a rotswarm. Honestly I'd be more scared of the Fateweaver + Tallybrand + Rotswarm build. Having 9 plague drones charging a unit after a dubious command would have 63 poisoned 3+ attacks, in addition to letting the herald get 6 attacks and whatever Hammer of Wrath hits are inflicted! Owch!
So here is a less competitive objective securing list, and a more "kill you with big scary stuff" list that might be fun.
Infernal Tetrad- The usual stuff here, I think we can all agree on what is good and hearty for this list. I tossed the Nurgle prince a lesser reward for kicks from left over points. Standard armor of scorn and impossible robes, everyone gets armor wings, double greater and whatnot.
Then instead of daemons, bring Vraks renegades with the Purge detachment. This is a 1HQ 2 elite detachment.
HQ: Command squad (manditory HQ for R&H, so bring it)
Elite: 3x units of 3 spawn. Renegades get units of 3 spawn for just under 60pt. Its a steal. This detachment allows a few extra elites and heavy.
Heavy: 4x3 Rapier laser destroyer arrays. These are 36" range twin linked ordnance lascannon artillery with. Each group is 3 shots with 6 crew, toss on militia training for BS/WS3. Ordnance lascannons are amazingly awesome. A unit of 3 of these clocks in at just under 80pt, they make wraithknights look overpriced. Though, I guess you will have 320pt of 12 twin linked T7 ordnance lascannons. Which would lay the hurt on any GCs and SHs you run into that get close enough, also pop transports.
Spawn are not exactly incursion nurglings. I would keep them handing in the back field to prevent anything from getting into CC with the artillery, as in CC they are T3 with no save.
On the subject of the rotswarm, I ran some tests when I got the book, because I was super excited about it. There isn't much in the game that will survive a charge from 9 plague drones outside of another death star or a GC/SH, and even then, the SH is most likely going to die. The boon from rotswarm is horrible and disgustingly awesome overkill, especially after fateweaver casts prescience on the unit.
The new Black Legion supplement coming out apparently has a formation that lets you take 3-5 Sorcerers, no other support units required. It's not a lot of extra bodies, but they don't have to be taken as a unit so can be spread out to prevent them all dying to a single attack. At ML 3 each that is 9-15 extra WC, which really opens up summoning to drop more bodies on the table as objective grabbers or tarpit units.
What are thoughts on this as a support formation for the Tetrad?
gwarsh41 wrote: On the subject of the rotswarm, I ran some tests when I got the book, because I was super excited about it. There isn't much in the game that will survive a charge from 9 plague drones outside of another death star or a GC/SH, and even then, the SH is most likely going to die. The boon from rotswarm is horrible and disgustingly awesome overkill, especially after fateweaver casts prescience on the unit.
I have been toying with the idea of a rotswarm holding 7 squads of 3 drones each, for 21 drones total. Not a single death star, but instead multiple threats. Do you think that would work?
Fhionnuisce wrote: The new Black Legion supplement coming out apparently has a formation that lets you take 3-5 Sorcerers, no other support units required. It's not a lot of extra bodies, but they don't have to be taken as a unit so can be spread out to prevent them all dying to a single attack. At ML 3 each that is 9-15 extra WC, which really opens up summoning to drop more bodies on the table as objective grabbers or tarpit units.
What are thoughts on this as a support formation for the Tetrad?
The problem is that they cannot join any of the Daemon units. Thus they are stuck with each other or they are on their own, unless you want to pay for a CSMCAD just so that they have units to hide in. Actually, I suppose they could work with Renegades.....on second thought, nah.
If you want to go that route, just get 3-4 Lvl 3 Tzeentch Heralds instead. Cheaper and they can actually hide in Daemon units.
gwarsh41 wrote: On the subject of the rotswarm, I ran some tests when I got the book, because I was super excited about it. There isn't much in the game that will survive a charge from 9 plague drones outside of another death star or a GC/SH, and even then, the SH is most likely going to die. The boon from rotswarm is horrible and disgustingly awesome overkill, especially after fateweaver casts prescience on the unit.
I have been toying with the idea of a rotswarm holding 7 squads of 3 drones each, for 21 drones total. Not a single death star, but instead multiple threats. Do you think that would work?
It could, just not with the Infernal Tetrad unless you're playing at 2K+.
Fhionnuisce wrote: The new Black Legion supplement coming out apparently has a formation that lets you take 3-5 Sorcerers, no other support units required. It's not a lot of extra bodies, but they don't have to be taken as a unit so can be spread out to prevent them all dying to a single attack. At ML 3 each that is 9-15 extra WC, which really opens up summoning to drop more bodies on the table as objective grabbers or tarpit units.
What are thoughts on this as a support formation for the Tetrad?
The problem is that they cannot join any of the Daemon units. Thus they are stuck with each other or they are on their own, unless you want to pay for a CSMCAD just so that they have units to hide in. Actually, I suppose they could work with Renegades.....on second thought, nah.
If you want to go that route, just get 3-4 Lvl 3 Tzeentch Heralds instead. Cheaper and they can actually hide in Daemon units.
Darn. I thought for a moment I might have a reason to play with my CSM models but you are right, TzHeralds probably play better.
Galef wrote: CSM Sorcerer formation + KDK Gorepack + Tetrad. Need I go on?
Please, don't go on with more bad ideas. Haha....j.k.!
Lol. Just saying the Gorepack is what you could put the (unmarked) Sorcerers in. Maybe not great for the Tetrad, but I'm sure someone will try it soon enough.
Galef wrote: CSM Sorcerer formation + KDK Gorepack + Tetrad. Need I go on?
Please, don't go on with more bad ideas. Haha....j.k.!
Lol. Just saying the Gorepack is what you could put the (unmarked) Sorcerers in. Maybe not great for the Tetrad, but I'm sure someone will try it soon enough.
Have you tried fitting all that in an 1850 list? Standard Tetrad (about 1300-pts), 4 Lvl 3 sorcerers, 2 hounds and 2 bikers?
Galef wrote: CSM Sorcerer formation + KDK Gorepack + Tetrad. Need I go on?
Please, don't go on with more bad ideas. Haha....j.k.!
Lol. Just saying the Gorepack is what you could put the (unmarked) Sorcerers in. Maybe not great for the Tetrad, but I'm sure someone will try it soon enough.
Yeah I think sorcerer formation + Gorepack might actually have merit on it's own, but too many points needed to put it with a Tetrad.
What do you think of the Forgehost as a secondary detachment to the Tetrad? It would continue the theme of hard-hitting and tough big guys rushing in, with some shooting to disrupt enemy positioning and clear bubbblewrap. They could also tarpit enemy tarpits to keep the peinces in action.
On the downside they don't add warp dice and don't buff the princes directly
ptapanin wrote: What do you think of the Forgehost as a secondary detachment to the Tetrad? It would continue the theme of hard-hitting and tough big guys rushing in, with some shooting to disrupt enemy positioning and clear bubbblewrap. They could also tarpit enemy tarpits to keep the peinces in action.
On the downside they don't add warp dice and don't buff the princes directly
As long as you aren't in a Grav-happy meta - where almost every single MEQ player is sporting Grav - then you're good. The Forgehost is a great board control formation as long as Grav isn't too widespread.
yes jy2 is right i found forgeghost be a good answer to heavy mech army list, also D thirster with all the buffs infernal tetrad can bring on the table, could be an option.
Just got my first game in tonight, at 1500. Brought a Tetrad with allied cad of 7 nurglings and a ML1 Nurgle Herald with the bell. My opponent was trying out his first game as grey knights. He brought two ML3 Librarians, two squads of terminators, a Dreadknight, two Redeemers and a big interceptor blob. He used Gate of Infinity to teleport right behind the Khorne Prince, and as he had first turn he killed it with them and a few other shooting attacks. The club I play at has very little LOS-blocking terrain, so it happens. I then got lucky and killed two Termies with a The Dark Prince thirsts result on the Warp-Storm table, and began mopping up with princes. I took a lesser reward on the nurgle prince, since I had 10 points spare, and the extra attack from two specialiast weapons really helped, since he was wounding on 2s rerolling from poison. By the end of turn two, he had only the two LRs left, and I had lost two nurgling bases, the Khorne Prince, and a a couple of wounds off of the others. Most hilariously, the Tzeentch prince did like two wounds to himself with the Staff Explosions, which was fun. Over-all, I had a ton of fun with the list, and have picked up a Prince to begin building it for real, instead of just proxying to test
Swampmist wrote: Just got my first game in tonight, at 1500. Brought a Tetrad with allied cad of 7 nurglings and a ML1 Nurgle Herald with the bell. My opponent was trying out his first game as grey knights. He brought two ML3 Librarians, two squads of terminators, a Dreadknight, two Redeemers and a big interceptor blob. He used Gate of Infinity to teleport right behind the Khorne Prince, and as he had first turn he killed it with them and a few other shooting attacks. The club I play at has very little LOS-blocking terrain, so it happens. I then got lucky and killed two Termies with a The Dark Prince thirsts result on the Warp-Storm table, and began mopping up with princes. I took a lesser reward on the nurgle prince, since I had 10 points spare, and the extra attack from two specialiast weapons really helped, since he was wounding on 2s rerolling from poison. By the end of turn two, he had only the two LRs left, and I had lost two nurgling bases, the Khorne Prince, and a a couple of wounds off of the others. Most hilariously, the Tzeentch prince did like two wounds to himself with the Staff Explosions, which was fun. Over-all, I had a ton of fun with the list, and have picked up a Prince to begin building it for real, instead of just proxying to test
Yeah, the more I think about and test the Tetrad, the more I like it. I will be testing out a Tally Band Tetrad today in preparation for a Tourney in August. I won't be playing myself since the TO has asked me to help judge the event, but he and I are testing some of the missions.
I really think that having the Bell, bonuses from the Incursion and tons of Nurglings to cap objectives really pushes the Tetrad from "just fun" to "competitive & fun". Don't forget that Nurglings can throw defensive grenades, meaning you can Blind a few units to make them Snap fire at the Princes. This is especially great against Necrons & Tau (if you can get close enough)
I do not recommend joining the same combats as the Nurglings, though. While it is tempting to negate overwatch by having the Nurglings charge in first, then charge with the Princes, Nurglings being so easy to kill may make you lose combat and take an Instability test on the Prince
Fhionnuisce wrote: The new Black Legion supplement coming out apparently has a formation that lets you take 3-5 Sorcerers, no other support units required. It's not a lot of extra bodies, but they don't have to be taken as a unit so can be spread out to prevent them all dying to a single attack. At ML 3 each that is 9-15 extra WC, which really opens up summoning to drop more bodies on the table as objective grabbers or tarpit units.
What are thoughts on this as a support formation for the Tetrad?
I'm going to use it, running 4 Nurgle bike sorcerers, ML2 each, with my Tetrad. I think it will be fun. I'm going to paint each sorcerer to match one of the princes. So it's my four riders of the apocalypse army. I think it will be a lot of fun.
I'll run them separately and keep them moving to grab objectives. Every shot dedicated to taking down a sorcerer with T6 and 2 wounds is a shot not aimed at the princes. The cabal trick will mess with some people. Maybe get a lucky shot using their big guns. Probably get in some people's heads and distract them. Mess with their target priority. Early on it will give me 8-9 more warp.
Will it be the most competitive build possible? Probably not. I'll find out. It will probably be enough. Everyone I play with does competitive fluff. We have more Dark Eldar players than Tau or Wraithknight players at our GW.
Fhionnuisce wrote: The new Black Legion supplement coming out apparently has a formation that lets you take 3-5 Sorcerers, no other support units required. It's not a lot of extra bodies, but they don't have to be taken as a unit so can be spread out to prevent them all dying to a single attack. At ML 3 each that is 9-15 extra WC, which really opens up summoning to drop more bodies on the table as objective grabbers or tarpit units.
What are thoughts on this as a support formation for the Tetrad?
I'm going to use it, running 4 Nurgle bike sorcerers, ML2 each, with my Tetrad. I think it will be fun. I'm going to paint each sorcerer to match one of the princes. So it's my four riders of the apocalypse army. I think it will be a lot of fun.
I'll run them separately and keep them moving to grab objectives. Every shot dedicated to taking down a sorcerer with T6 and 2 wounds is a shot not aimed at the princes. The cabal trick will mess with some people. Maybe get a lucky shot using their big guns. Probably get in some people's heads and distract them. Mess with their target priority. Early on it will give me 8-9 more warp.
Will it be the most competitive build possible? Probably not. I'll find out. It will probably be enough. Everyone I play with does competitive fluff. We have more Dark Eldar players than Tau or Wraithknight players at our GW.
Oh man that's a cool idea, although why not have each Sorcerer marked for each god? 1 Tzeentch, 1 Nurgle, 1 Slaanesh and 1 unmarked & painted red to represent "Khorne". 4 Bikers of the Apocalypse!
Fhionnuisce wrote: The new Black Legion supplement coming out apparently has a formation that lets you take 3-5 Sorcerers, no other support units required. It's not a lot of extra bodies, but they don't have to be taken as a unit so can be spread out to prevent them all dying to a single attack. At ML 3 each that is 9-15 extra WC, which really opens up summoning to drop more bodies on the table as objective grabbers or tarpit units.
What are thoughts on this as a support formation for the Tetrad?
I'm going to use it, running 4 Nurgle bike sorcerers, ML2 each, with my Tetrad. I think it will be fun. I'm going to paint each sorcerer to match one of the princes. So it's my four riders of the apocalypse army. I think it will be a lot of fun.
I'll run them separately and keep them moving to grab objectives. Every shot dedicated to taking down a sorcerer with T6 and 2 wounds is a shot not aimed at the princes. The cabal trick will mess with some people. Maybe get a lucky shot using their big guns. Probably get in some people's heads and distract them. Mess with their target priority. Early on it will give me 8-9 more warp.
Will it be the most competitive build possible? Probably not. I'll find out. It will probably be enough. Everyone I play with does competitive fluff. We have more Dark Eldar players than Tau or Wraithknight players at our GW.
Oh man that's a cool idea, although why not have each Sorcerer marked for each god? 1 Tzeentch, 1 Nurgle, 1 Slaanesh and 1 unmarked & painted red to represent "Khorne". 4 Bikers of the Apocalypse!
Thanks! I thought myself clever. I thought the Cabal was neat. I like Chaos bikers. I wanted to include them in the Tetrad. But it seemed tacked on having four bikers with four demons. Then the four and four hit me and I thought of the apocalypse. And Good Omens.
The competitive part of me is thinking just Nurgle for the 6 toughness, since the sorcerers will be kinda pricey each and standing out on their own. The fluffy part wants to paint them each to seem distinctive and match the gods. I think the Khorne sorcerer is devoted to Khorne but Khorne doesn't recognize him.
If I was playing a weaker opponent or the list works better than expected, then I'd probably give them different marks.
I just bought my first demon prince. Looking forward to using this.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: If anything you should leave the Sorcerers unmarked. Nobody wants to roll on those tables. I ENTIRELY support painting them that way though!
The tables suck, but ML2 will give them each another power and they will have the Cabal power to use. And I'm taking the artifact that gives a psyker a nova flame power and another ML. Outside of their special trick, I assume they'll mostly be batteries for the princes and objective grabbers.
I was thinking a Leviathan detachment with three Hive Tyrants would be a perfect compliment. They don't need the Charges they gain for the most part, can perfectly handle either light vehicles or heavy ones, and with THAT many shots it is easy to soften plausibly dangerous enemies up.
I was thinking a Leviathan detachment with three Hive Tyrants would be a perfect compliment. They don't need the Charges they gain for the most part, can perfectly handle either light vehicles or heavy ones, and with THAT many shots it is easy to soften plausibly dangerous enemies up.
The problem with that is ground control. In many tournament scenarios - ITC, Nova, Adepticton - you need a ground force to take Maelstrom/progressive-type objectives. Running a flyer-heavy army will mean that you will always be fighting an uphill battle in these types of missions. In order to win those types of missions, you will need to either 1) rely on Summoning rather than buffing your DP's or 2) try to table your opponent.
And not to mention the points that type of army will take....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
blackmage wrote: 3 tyrants are 720 points unless you play 2000+pts you cant use, tetrad usually cost around 1300pt with decent DP.
Don't forget the 3 mucolid troops you need to take. That's another 45-pts.
for me tetrad is fine with tallyband cheap troops with good resilience, help with maelstrom or with a CAD which can field obj secure troops.
yes you cant play levhiatan+tetrad at standard formats you need at least 2000pts.
jy2 wrote: The problem with that is ground control. In many tournament scenarios - ITC, Nova, Adepticton - you need a ground force to take Maelstrom/progressive-type objectives. Running a flyer-heavy army will mean that you will always be fighting an uphill battle in these types of missions.
That's why your tetrad usually will spend it's games gliding instead of swooping. You want to corrupt objectives on your way to smash the face of anything that looks funny.
blackmage wrote: for me tetrad is fine with tallyband cheap troops with good resilience, help with maelstrom or with a CAD which can field obj secure troops.
I agree. Even in mission without objectives, that many Nurglings can do some fun stuff. I played a kill point mission last night vs about 120+ Orks and Ghaz. It was funny to watch 3 Nurglings blind a 20 mob of Orks with their grenades, then charge and make the Orks -1S & T because of the Tallyband bonus + Doomsday bell. Nurglings being hit and wounded on 5s is hilarious. I did this to tie up a few units while the Tetrad smashed through some other units.
My Tzeentch Prince single handedly ran though Ghaz's entire MegaNob council on the charge (Insta-killed all of them) before being tied up with Ghaz for the rest of the game. I managed to charge the unit in a way that put Ghaz in the rear of the unit and not engaged so he could not challenge.
My Slaanesh Prince didn't fair so well. She got charged by 16+ Orks and even with a re-rollable 4++ she died. Then my nearby Nurglings got sweet revenge on those Orks.
I actually would have won the game, but I forgot to turbo-boost my summoned Disc Herald out of LoS after Zapping most of his Lootas. That cost me linebreaker and gave up another KP.
Tallyband effect happens at the beginning of the Assualt phase, not the beginning of the fight sub-phase iirc, so you can't lower stats until the second round of combat...
Swampmist wrote: Tallyband effect happens at the beginning of the Assualt phase, not the beginning of the fight sub-phase iirc, so you can't lower stats until the second round of combat...
You would be correct, I missed that bit. Still, if you can manage to blind them first, it is worth charging in. Tons of Nurglings are worth it on that ability alone. Tau, Necrons and Orks all have low Initiative so Blinding them is a fairly reliable tactic, making it safer for the Tetrad to stay on the ground
jy2 wrote: The problem with that is ground control. In many tournament scenarios - ITC, Nova, Adepticton - you need a ground force to take Maelstrom/progressive-type objectives. Running a flyer-heavy army will mean that you will always be fighting an uphill battle in these types of missions.
That's why your tetrad usually will spend it's games gliding instead of swooping. You want to corrupt objectives on your way to smash the face of anything that looks funny.
While I agree that you should spend most of the time gliding with the Tetrad, unfortunately, you can't corrupt objectives unless you're also running a core for the Daemonic Incursion as well. Tetrad + Tyranids does not satisfy the requirements for Daemonic Corruption.
I was thinking a Leviathan detachment with three Hive Tyrants would be a perfect compliment. They don't need the Charges they gain for the most part, can perfectly handle either light vehicles or heavy ones, and with THAT many shots it is easy to soften plausibly dangerous enemies up.
I've built my list with the Tetrad at 1305. The upgrades made sense to me and are basically the same ones everyone else is taking. Maybe playing will make me change my mind, but to be honest, freeing up a few extra points won't get me anything more to use with them. Putting more points into them doesn't seem beneficial either, but I'll find out.
Swampmist wrote: I'm tempted to try to get another 10 points to give the Slaanesh prince a melee weapon, don't know if there's much point to it though...
The best weapon I've found for her is soulstealer. The problem is that it's not a specialist weapon, so I can't combine it with an etherblade.
Going to try the Tetrad today or tomorrow. A friend wants to play 2K. So I've added a herald with upgrades to what I'd otherwise be running. I almost dropped an upgrade and Be'Lakor for Fateweaver. It's still a pretty tough choice. I just think Be'Lakor synergises better. So, is it worth keeping the grimoire of true names if I don't have a re roll from fatey?
Khaine's Wrath wrote: So, is it worth keeping the grimoire of true names if I don't have a re roll from fatey?
Not really. If you fail on a DP he will die
Ok, well the idea is to use it on Be'Lakor. If it fails, he's only down to a standard 5++. He's also an eternal warrior, and lastly he can always jink with his built in shrouded. Though I know that's less desirable with the penalty to shriek.
why use grimorie on be'lakor'? he already has shrouded and anyway shrouded doesn't grant you survive, many armies have ways to overcome shroud and when they do be'lakor die quick.
Using Grimoire on Belakor isn't a bad idea, actually. You can always just fly him off the board or fly behind LoS blocking terrain if Grim fails. Belakor doesn't have to be on the board for the Tetrad to get its bonuses, while Belakor is also weaker than the other Princes
However the next question is who has the Grim? All your DPs should have 2x Greater rewards and at 1850 you won't have points for a Herald to put Grim on. You will at 2k however, so if that's the plan, sure, keep the Grimiore.
Worst case scenario, you decide not to swap for Grim, the Portalglyph is a good idea to spawn some WC in the form of Horrors.
So, I ran the Tetrad yesterday against quite a tough space wolf friend of mine. We played s standard BRB maelstrom mission as it was a friendly game. So no ITC or NOVA formats or anything. I wanted 1850 points, but he wanted 2K. So we went for 2K. I took the Tetrad with a daemons CAD. The CAD had Be'Lakor, a herald on disc, 10 horrors and 3 nurglings. The Tetrad was kitted out with 2 greaters each, ML3 everywhere, a lesser on all but the nurgle and relics on all but the slannesh. Armour of scorn, impossible robes, and corruption.
I pulled a LOT of defensive powers, and with them I quickly realised how god damn resilient this list is. It took a crap tonne of punishment and survived. He managed to kill Be'Lakor on turn 4 and the Khorne prince on turn 5. Then I tabled him on turn 6. I was exceptionally impressed with its durability. Yet a pretty decent damage output.
Khaine's Wrath wrote: I pulled a LOT of defensive powers, and with them I quickly realised how god damn resilient this list is. It took a crap tonne of punishment and survived. He managed to kill Be'Lakor on turn 4 and the Khorne prince on turn 5. Then I tabled him on turn 6. I was exceptionally impressed with its durability. Yet a pretty decent damage output.
4++ FNP and 'Rerolling Invulns' make for one insanely durable unit. If you got the warlord trait of +1 invuln, and cast cursed earth thats a 3++ rerollable, combined with a 4++ FNP. That's a 1/18 chance of taking any wound delivered.
I've not tried the tetrad yet but after hearing the good reports here I'm keen to give it a try. It will probably be in a Maelstrom game so I think it best to take it in a Daemonic Incursion detachment as that Daemonic Corruption ability is great for that format. I'm thinking of a Tallyband and Tetrad list as follows, is this the best load out for that combo or are there any recommended changes? This is at 1850 btw. Also I play in a low grav meta so the Warp Forged armour isn't a big worry for this.
Command - Infernal Tetrad
DP of Khorne, Flight, Armour of Scorn, 2xGR, 1xLR 280
DP of Nurgle, Flight, Corruption, ML3, Armour, 2xGR 360
DP of Slaanesh, Flight, ML3, Armour, 2xGR 330
DP of Tzeentch, Flight, Impossible Robes, ML3, 2xGR, 1xLR 360
Auxiliary - Daemon Flock
5x Furies 35
Herald would join Plaguebearers and probably lurk in some backfield ruins. Nurglings to infiltrate/DS and deny overwatch against DPs by charging things first. DPs to stay on the ground apart from maybe the Slaanesh one with a lash and Psychic Shriek.
Command - Infernal Tetrad
DP of Khorne, Flight, Armour of Scorn, 2xGR, 1xLR 280
DP of Nurgle, Flight, Corruption, ML3, Armour, 2xGR 360
DP of Slaanesh, Flight, ML3, Armour, 2xGR 330
DP of Tzeentch, Flight, Impossible Robes, ML3, 2xGR, 1xLR 360
Auxiliary - Daemon Flock
5x Furies 35
Herald would join Plaguebearers and probably lurk in some backfield ruins. Nurglings to infiltrate/DS and deny overwatch against DPs by charging things first. DPs to stay on the ground apart from maybe the Slaanesh one with a lash and Psychic Shriek.
This is almost the exact list I ran the other day, except my Herald was only ML1 so that he and the PB champ could have Etherblades just in case.
Make sure to throw a grenade from the Nurglings before charging in. If the unit doesn't get blinded, it may not be a great idea to have them in combat with the DP, because your opponent can just hit them and make you possible lose combat. Your DP does NOT want to take Instability.
Hmm yeah that is a good point even with the reroll instability tests from the Detachment benefit. Perhaps the Nurglings will be best as a nuisance unit unless there's a strong shooting unit but poor in CC that you're pretty confident the DP can kill most of in combat before they retort.
Command - Infernal Tetrad
DP of Khorne, Flight, Armour of Scorn, 2xGR, 1xLR 280
DP of Nurgle, Flight, Corruption, ML3, Armour, 2xGR 360
DP of Slaanesh, Flight, ML3, Armour, 2xGR 330
DP of Tzeentch, Flight, Impossible Robes, ML3, 2xGR, 1xLR 360
Auxiliary - Daemon Flock
5x Furies 35
Herald would join Plaguebearers and probably lurk in some backfield ruins. Nurglings to infiltrate/DS and deny overwatch against DPs by charging things first. DPs to stay on the ground apart from maybe the Slaanesh one with a lash and Psychic Shriek.
This is almost the exact list I ran the other day, except my Herald was only ML1 so that he and the PB champ could have Etherblades just in case.
Make sure to throw a grenade from the Nurglings before charging in. If the unit doesn't get blinded, it may not be a great idea to have them in combat with the DP, because your opponent can just hit them and make you possible lose combat. Your DP does NOT want to take Instability.
Just keep in mind that the "thrown" grenades won't affect most Tau units.
I'm building a Tetrad list right now and trying to figure out what I want to do with the rest of my points. I've got the models for either the Tallyband or a Be'lakor CAD. However, I just saw the rules for the new Renegade Knights.
Is this a dumb plan, or a good plan?
1850 Points:
Infernal Tetrad
····Daemon Prince of Khorne [Armour of Scorn, 2x Greater Reward, 1x Lesser Reward, Flight]
····Daemon Prince of Nurgle [2x Greater Reward, 1x Lesser Reward, Flight, ML 2]
····Daemon Prince of Slaanesh [2x Greater Reward, Flight, ML 2]
····Daemon Prince of Tzeentch [The Impossible Robe, 2x Greater Reward, 1x Lesser Reward, Flight, ML 2]
Symbiode wrote: I'm building a Tetrad list right now and trying to figure out what I want to do with the rest of my points. I've got the models for either the Tallyband or a Be'lakor CAD. However, I just saw the rules for the new Renegade Knights.
Is this a dumb plan, or a good plan?
1850 Points:
Infernal Tetrad
····Daemon Prince of Khorne [Armour of Scorn, 2x Greater Reward, 1x Lesser Reward, Flight]
····Daemon Prince of Nurgle [2x Greater Reward, 1x Lesser Reward, Flight, ML 2]
····Daemon Prince of Slaanesh [2x Greater Reward, Flight, ML 2]
····Daemon Prince of Tzeentch [The Impossible Robe, 2x Greater Reward, 1x Lesser Reward, Flight, ML 2]
The CC-Knights are only about 325 each so it's doable. However, Knights don't make for very good objective-babysitters and squander their potential in that role. I'd rather go 1 knight and a Daemon CAD for objective purposes.
Command - Infernal Tetrad
DP of Khorne, Flight, Armour of Scorn, 2xGR, 1xLR 280
DP of Nurgle, Flight, Corruption, ML3, Armour, 2xGR 360
DP of Slaanesh, Flight, ML3, Armour, 2xGR 330
DP of Tzeentch, Flight, Impossible Robes, ML3, 2xGR, 1xLR 360
Auxiliary - Daemon Flock
5x Furies 35.
If you are not taking Be'lakor this is the standard. Personally I perfer soulstealer over Corrupion, though both are good options.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jy2 wrote: The CC-Knights are only about 325 each so it's doable. However, Knights don't make for very good objective-babysitters and squander their potential in that role. I'd rather go 1 knight and a Daemon CAD for objective purposes.
What I like about this approach is that is also frees up a few more points for the knight. A bare bones knight at 325 makes me a little worried. I would rather make sure they have a mark.
Command - Infernal Tetrad
DP of Khorne, Flight, Armour of Scorn, 2xGR, 1xLR 280
DP of Nurgle, Flight, Corruption, ML3, Armour, 2xGR 360
DP of Slaanesh, Flight, ML3, Armour, 2xGR 330
DP of Tzeentch, Flight, Impossible Robes, ML3, 2xGR, 1xLR 360
Auxiliary - Daemon Flock
5x Furies 35.
If you are not taking Be'lakor this is the standard. Personally I perfer soulstealer over Corrupion, though both are good options.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jy2 wrote: The CC-Knights are only about 325 each so it's doable. However, Knights don't make for very good objective-babysitters and squander their potential in that role. I'd rather go 1 knight and a Daemon CAD for objective purposes.
What I like about this approach is that is also frees up a few more points for the knight. A bare bones knight at 325 makes me a little worried. I would rather make sure they have a mark.
it's the new Renegade knight; doesn't yet have rules for a mark as far as i know. Can take double ranged weapons though, so double battle cannon might work.
The double battle cannon adds a lot to the cast and I'd probably recommend that gatling cannon more.
I liked running the Tetrad with Belakor and a knight, so I'll probably do the same with the new renegade knights. I expect I'll do one with two guns and have to cut belakor out to give more buffs to the tetrad though.
Swampmist wrote: it's the new Renegade knight; doesn't yet have rules for a mark as far as i know. Can take double ranged weapons though, so double battle cannon might work.
What book is it from? I'd like to look into this.
Another good perk of the Tetrad is that they are easy to carry. I'm looking at flying out to the BAO, and the idea of bringing 5 models with me is appealing.
New dataslate in the 2 knight game. The Renegade knight is basically every knight pattern mashed into one, and can upgrade either arm to any of the shooting weapons. So tetrad+double gattling knight is a very real thing.
Yeah, the renegade knight is a dream come true for both my daemons and my renegades and heretics, who previously couldn't take knights at all. Getting a legitimate knight formation was is just awesome. Now I just need my lgs to hold one for a week. until I get paid.
Swampmist wrote: New dataslate in the 2 knight game. The Renegade knight is basically every knight pattern mashed into one, and can upgrade either arm to any of the shooting weapons. So tetrad+double gattling knight is a very real thing.
At 2k points it is. I've ran the numbers, and can only find a way to fit one in an 1850 list.
This is the best I can make. You need to buff up your princes to make it work.
Tetrad
Khorne Prince w/Wings, Greater, Greater, Lesser, Armor or Scorn
Tzeentch Prince w/Wings, Lesser, Greater, Greater, Impossible Robe
Nurgle Prince w/Wings, Warp Armor, Greater, Greater, Grotti
Slaanesh Prince w/Wings, Warp Armor, Greater, Greater, Soulstealer
Renegade Knights
Renegade Knight w/Dual Avenger Cannon and Stormspear Pod
Thoughts
I chose Grotti to go on the nurgle prince, as syngarizes really well with the dual avenger gatling cannon.
I'm not sold that this solves the problems of the Tetrad -- namely having problems with enemy GMCs.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Symbiode wrote: I'm building a Tetrad list right now and trying to figure out what I want to do with the rest of my points. I've got the models for either the Tallyband or a Be'lakor CAD. However, I just saw the rules for the new Renegade Knights.
Is this a dumb plan, or a good plan?
1850 Points:
Infernal Tetrad
····Daemon Prince of Khorne [Armour of Scorn, 2x Greater Reward, 1x Lesser Reward, Flight]
····Daemon Prince of Nurgle [2x Greater Reward, 1x Lesser Reward, Flight, ML 2]
····Daemon Prince of Slaanesh [2x Greater Reward, Flight, ML 2]
····Daemon Prince of Tzeentch [The Impossible Robe, 2x Greater Reward, 1x Lesser Reward, Flight, ML 2]
I pulled out a ML from each psyker prince to make it work. Would it be better to have the levels distributed more towards one prince?
We will have to test it and see. This is one of those things that might be awesome or horrible. The knights really fit in well with the facebeating aspect of the army -- but losing psychic levels is hard.
Also it's unknown if the formation will be legal in ITC as it has multiple super heavy walkers. I'm guessing it will be as they are all 'knights'.
Just keep in mind that the "thrown" grenades won't affect most Tau units.
Any particular reason why not? I was fairly familiar with Tau before their new book and I have heard not much changed (other than a few significant new units and tons of formations). IIRC, nothing makes then immune to Blind. Did Blacksun filter change or am I just miss remembering?
CrownAxe wrote: Blacksun Filter makes them immune to blind and been like that since 6ed
Well &^$*! Here I thought BSF only ignored Night Fight. And I bet all suits still have BSF too.
Well there goes a good chuck of my "Nurglings are awesome" arguments. Only being able to Blind Necrons & Orks makes using the "poo-throwing" tactics a bit situational, rather than giving an edge against Tau.
CrownAxe wrote: Blacksun Filter makes them immune to blind and been like that since 6ed
Well &^$*! Here I thought BSF only ignored Night Fight. And I bet all suits still have BSF too.
Well there goes a good chuck of my "Nurglings are awesome" arguments. Only being able to Blind Necrons & Orks makes using the "poo-throwing" tactics a bit situational, rather than giving an edge against Tau.
Ironically, the Stormsurge doesn't have it, though all the other suits do.
CrownAxe wrote: Blacksun Filter makes them immune to blind and been like that since 6ed
Well &^$*! Here I thought BSF only ignored Night Fight. And I bet all suits still have BSF too.
Well there goes a good chuck of my "Nurglings are awesome" arguments. Only being able to Blind Necrons & Orks makes using the "poo-throwing" tactics a bit situational, rather than giving an edge against Tau.
Well at worst its a 1/6 chance to blind anything that isn't immune. Still worth throwing them! I mean, you still try to seize the initiative right? Don't forget about fear tests, at least tau have to take those!
Just played against 5 Riptides. It was brutal. We played Vangaurd so I didn't see combat til turn 4, then I couldn't even wound because of their 3++ & FNP. I was pissed.
Tip for the future, Fly for 2 turns to make sure there is nowhere they can run. I landed turn 2 and because of that I wasn't close enough to charge until turn 4.
I only managed to kill 1 due to Psychic Shreik. I would have won on objectives, but a couple of Riptides squeezed out of their corner past the Princes and made short work of all my Nurglings....in combat non-the-less.
What I should have done was stay in the air on turn 2 and spread out to trap them all in his corner, try to shriek another one to death, land turn 3, then charge turn 4. Even if I couldn't kill them, they would not have been able to cap my objectives. The only saving grace in this whole game was that my WL trait was the -1BS/WS when targeted. It made if harder for him to do anything. I only lost the Slaanesh Princess, which was my fault for not casting Invisibility on her (or keeping her in the air)
We did come to the conclusion that Drones can be Blinded even if they are in a unit with Blacksun Filters. He had a unit of Crisis Suits with marker Drones and the Drones don't have BSF, so if I was able to get any Nurlgings in range (not possible), I could have attempted to blind them.
How would you kit out a Renegade knight, if its run alongside the standard Tetrad, and you're mostly worried about Space Marines (Gladius, Cent-star etc.) and Eldar bikes + Wraith Knight?
I was thinking the Thermal Cannon + Gatling + Stormspear rockets.
Rockets + Thermal to open Razorbacks and kill Centurions. Gatling to kill bikes & marines...But what about GMCs like the Wraith Knight?
Spiky Norman wrote: How would you kit out a Renegade knight, if its run alongside the standard Tetrad, and you're mostly worried about Space Marines (Gladius, Cent-star etc.) and Eldar bikes + Wraith Knight?
I was thinking the Thermal Cannon + Gatling + Stormspear rockets.
Rockets + Thermal to open Razorbacks and kill Centurions. Gatling to kill bikes & marines...But what about GMCs like the Wraith Knight?
Double Gatling (which you can do) will absolutely mess up Marines and Scatterbikes. That many shots might also kill do some serious damage to a WK, enough so that the Balesword wielding Nurgle Prince can finish it off. You may not be able to use the poison, but the ID will ignore the FNP and cause D3 wounds. Cast Enfeeble and you'll wound on 4+
I also had a game with my Infernal Tetrad against a Tau army run by one of the best players in my area, multiple-GT winner The French Overlord running ObSec Farsight-bomb + Riptide Wing. It was a tough but close game. Perhaps I will do a special mini-batrep exclusive here on this thread.
Galef wrote: Just played against 5 Riptides. It was brutal. We played Vangaurd so I didn't see combat til turn 4, then I couldn't even wound because of their 3++ & FNP. I was pissed.
Tip for the future, Fly for 2 turns to make sure there is nowhere they can run. I landed turn 2 and because of that I wasn't close enough to charge until turn 4.
I only managed to kill 1 due to Psychic Shreik. I would have won on objectives, but a couple of Riptides squeezed out of their corner past the Princes and made short work of all my Nurglings....in combat non-the-less.
What I should have done was stay in the air on turn 2 and spread out to trap them all in his corner, try to shriek another one to death, land turn 3, then charge turn 4. Even if I couldn't kill them, they would not have been able to cap my objectives. The only saving grace in this whole game was that my WL trait was the -1BS/WS when targeted. It made if harder for him to do anything. I only lost the Slaanesh Princess, which was my fault for not casting Invisibility on her (or keeping her in the air)
We did come to the conclusion that Drones can be Blinded even if they are in a unit with Blacksun Filters. He had a unit of Crisis Suits with marker Drones and the Drones don't have BSF, so if I was able to get any Nurlgings in range (not possible), I could have attempted to blind them.
--
That's the sort of list I would enjoy playing my Cyclopial Cabal again. Not saying my list would do any better. I just think it would be fun and cathartic to take over a Riptide each turn to fire at the others. But only after hitting it with that Nurgle psychic power that gives Gets Hot to an enemy unit.
Galef wrote: Double Gatling (which you can do) will absolutely mess up Marines and Scatterbikes. That many shots might also kill do some serious damage to a WK, enough so that the Balesword wielding Nurgle Prince can finish it off. You may not be able to use the poison, but the ID will ignore the FNP and cause D3 wounds. Cast Enfeeble and you'll wound on 4+
Unfortunately there is only 1 Gatling cannon in the new Imperial Knight: Renegade kit, so if I cannot find a gatling cannon at a bits seller, which guns would be next best then? :-)
Khorne - +1W, It Will Not Die, Greater Etherblade
Nurgle - +1W, It Will Not Die, Balesword, Cursed Earth, Psychic Shriek
Slaanesh - Grimoire, Lash of Despair, Sacrifice, Shriek
Tzeentch - 4+ FNP, Greater Etherblade, Summoning, Shriek (Tzeentch)
WL Trait: +1 Inv
Tau deployment.
In reserves, the Farsight bomb, 2 tetras (outflanking), normal Riptide (not from the Riptide Wing) and all of his single suits. With the exception of the tetras, everyone will be deepstriking.
Daemon deployment. Bell Herald is hiding behind my VSG all by himself.
BTW, it is ruled in the ITC that markerlights cannot affect units behind a VSG. You need to take down the shields first before the Markerlights can affect the units within.
Nurglings will be deepstriking in from Reserves.
So what do you think of the matchup and who do you think wins? I will be updating this report throughout the day.
jy2 wrote: I also had a game with my Infernal Tetrad against a Tau army run by one of the best players in my area, multiple-GT winner The French Overlord running ObSec Farsight-bomb + Riptide Wing. It was a tough but close game. Perhaps I will do a special mini-batrep exclusive here on this thread.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I noticed you didn't opt for lesser rewards on the MoT and MoK ones. Why is that?
Not enough points for them. I was going for Psychic Shriek-spam and opted to add psychic levels to my Herald rather than to boost my CC-prowess. Otherwise, I could have made him Level 1 only to add those gifts.
jy2 wrote: Otherwise, I could have made him Level 1 only to add those gifts.
Not worth it IMHO.
[edit] well actually the lesser on both Khorne guys would have been very good here. Lots of juicy target to decapitate.
jy2 wrote:So what do you think of the matchup and who do you think wins? I will be updating this report throughout the day.
Barring any crazyness from the warpstorm... I'd say the Tetrad takes the game. I'm betting on you man !
Between the rewards and the awesome warlord trait (why do I keep getting 5 and 6 on that table... sigh), you rolled pretty good. You have the resistance buff you need.
And the Tau seems very vulnerable to your shriek-spam with bell (he didnt purchased the FNP on the riptides did he?).
Apologies in advance, but I lost my notes for the Maelstrom objectives.
Tau Turn 1
Spoiler:
Tau movement. Despite the Nova re-roll, his Burstide still fails and takes a Wound.
I believe MikhailLenin does hailfire this turn (shooting twice with his stationary riptides). He brings down my void shields first. Then his tetras shoot at my Nurgle Prince and remove his cover. Finally, he takes off 4W from my Nurgle Prince. If not for the +1W, my Prince would have been dead.
Daemons Turn 1
Spoiler:
Daemons advance. Khorne, Nurgle and Slaanesh Princes swoop forwards. Slaanesh Grimoires the Thirster.
Psychic phase is a total dud. I fail to cast Cursed Earth, Shriek or Summoning (he might have denied one of them).
Daemons run. Nurgle Prince fails to run off the table!
Tau Turn 2
Spoiler:
1 Tetra and all his suits come in. His Riptide and star stay in Reserves. Suits deepstrike off of his Tetra without scatter.
Riptides back away, but not before they Nova.
Tau shooting fail to bring down any of my Princes. However, his single suits do manage to take out my Bell Herald for First Blood.
Daemons Turn 2
Spoiler:
Nurgle and Slaanesh Prince continue to swoop. Thirster prepare to assault. However, I make the mistake of using the Grimoire on him after he had moved. Doh!
Tzeentch DP goes back towards my deployment zone and after the solo-suits.
Interceptor wipes out the 1 unit of Nurglings who came in. Unfortunately, scatter leaves them out in the open and the Burstide shoots them down.
It is a combination of Vector Strike and Psychic Shriek from my Nurgle DP which takes down the broadsides. However, that then leaves my Thirster with no target to charge. Doh!
Slaanesh Prince summons a Tzeentch Herald on disc. He then turbo-boosts behind terrain but takes 1W to Dangerous Terrain. Doh!
I fail Psychic Shriek attempts from both the Slaanesh and Tzeentch Princes.
Next turn is potentially going to be very painful for me if his star comes in, as I have my Thirster on the ground with only a 6++ Invuln save.
Galef wrote: Double Gatling (which you can do) will absolutely mess up Marines and Scatterbikes. That many shots might also kill do some serious damage to a WK, enough so that the Balesword wielding Nurgle Prince can finish it off. You may not be able to use the poison, but the ID will ignore the FNP and cause D3 wounds. Cast Enfeeble and you'll wound on 4+
Unfortunately there is only 1 Gatling cannon in the new Imperial Knight: Renegade kit, so if I cannot find a gatling cannon at a bits seller, which guns would be next best then? :-)
Conversions
Battle cannons are nice, the cannon/gatling is a solid option for my SW army. It will still put out a world of hurt with 2 large blasts, and will scare off any large hordes that might want to tarpit your princes.
jy2 wrote: Daemons run. Nurgle Prince fails to run off the table!
It's a minor point bit I don't think you can run Nurgle Daemons anyway due to S and P.
Right. I forgot during the game as I hadn't run Nurgle Princes in, like, forever.
BTW, glad he didn't run off the table, because that would have reduced the remaining Princes back to T5. Just another rule subtlety I wasn't aware of at that time as this was actually my first game with the Tetrad.
Report shall continue today. Yesterday, I got a little too busy to work on it.
jy2 wrote: Daemons run. Nurgle Prince fails to run off the table!
It's a minor point bit I don't think you can run Nurgle Daemons anyway due to S and P.
Right. I forgot during the game as I hadn't run Nurgle Princes in, like, forever.
BTW, glad he didn't run off the table, because that would have reduced the remaining Princes back to T5. Just another rule subtlety I wasn't aware of at that time as this was actually my first game with the Tetrad.
Report shall continue today. Yesterday, I got a little too busy to work on it.
Galef wrote: Double Gatling (which you can do) will absolutely mess up Marines and Scatterbikes. That many shots might also kill do some serious damage to a WK, enough so that the Balesword wielding Nurgle Prince can finish it off. You may not be able to use the poison, but the ID will ignore the FNP and cause D3 wounds. Cast Enfeeble and you'll wound on 4+
Unfortunately there is only 1 Gatling cannon in the new Imperial Knight: Renegade kit, so if I cannot find a gatling cannon at a bits seller, which guns would be next best then? :-)
Conversions
Battle cannons are nice, the cannon/gatling is a solid option for my SW army. It will still put out a world of hurt with 2 large blasts, and will scare off any large hordes that might want to tarpit your princes.
I was going to use forgefiend hades autocannons. Does anyone know if they would be too small to look right?
Galef wrote: Double Gatling (which you can do) will absolutely mess up Marines and Scatterbikes. That many shots might also kill do some serious damage to a WK, enough so that the Balesword wielding Nurgle Prince can finish it off. You may not be able to use the poison, but the ID will ignore the FNP and cause D3 wounds. Cast Enfeeble and you'll wound on 4+
Unfortunately there is only 1 Gatling cannon in the new Imperial Knight: Renegade kit, so if I cannot find a gatling cannon at a bits seller, which guns would be next best then? :-)
Conversions
Battle cannons are nice, the cannon/gatling is a solid option for my SW army. It will still put out a world of hurt with 2 large blasts, and will scare off any large hordes that might want to tarpit your princes.
I was going to use forgefiend hades autocannons. Does anyone know if they would be too small to look right?
It's ok. They are a bit on the small side but they can definitively work (i was checking exactly that yesterday).
With a nice junction between the hades gatling and the knight arm ((a few armor pieces, things like that) it should look good.
The other tetra and riptide comes in. Fortunately for me, his Farsight-bomb doesn't come in.
Riptide takes 1W from failed Nova.
The Tau spreads out.
Burstide shoots down the Herald with SMS.
Solo suits take off 1W from the Tzeentch DP.
Lastly, his riptide jumps onto the Relic.
Daemons Turn 3
Spoiler:
Nurgle DP comes in from Ongoing Reserves and vector-strikes a suit for 1W of damage.
Slaanesh DP shrieks a riptide, killing him!!!
However, both Nurgle and Tzeentch DP fail to shriek.
She summons another Herald but suffers Perils in the process....and then fails her Grounding Test! Doh!
Tzeentch DP assaults and massacres a solo suit.
Lastly, the Thirster assaults the Burstide. I opt to Smash so as not to kill him this turn. I want to kill him on my opponent's turn instead.
Tau Turn 4
Spoiler:
His star finally comes in. Yes, that's a risk you take when you reserve your units. You run the risk of your main unit not coming in until Turn 4!
Suits spread out.
His riptide picks up the Relic.
He shoots down my Khorne Prince on the ground.
Both the Slaanesh Prince and my Herald go down as well.
In close combat, my Thirster finish off his riptide.
Daemons Turn 4
Spoiler:
Last unit of Nurglings come in.
I don't have very much left. Both my Thirster and my Nurgle DP swoops 24" towards his star and the Relic. Tzeentch DP glides towards them as well. They all then run.
I ran a doubles tourney yesterday with this list.
We played Eldar/Corsairs/Eldar for the first round. We played Nids/Eldar for the second round, and Tau/Eldar in the third round.
Here are some takeaways from the games.
Deep striking daemonettes is really good
In every case our opponents were hiding on the back side of the table edge, so assaults would not happen until our turn 3.
Our tactic was to start with the majority of the dameonettes off the board, and to outflank the seekers. The four princes swooped forward on turn one, taking no damage casting cursed earth while moving up. Each prince (save nurgle) ran while swooping to get as close to the enemy as possible to limit their options in movement while keeping within 12" of the cursed earth.
On the start of turn 2, we deep struck in all the daemonettes within 12" of the cursed earth, right in our opponents faces. Each prince then went into glide mode, also getting in the opponents face. The seekers came in behind the opponent limiting their movement and adding additional threat.
At that point, our opponents could either shoot the princes or damonettes. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
Daemonettes Rend WraithKnights Out of Existence
In one game, our opponent shoved his wraithknight in our face, right in front of the 13 girl daemonette squad with the herald. The 'nets rushed up and shrieked the WK for 2 wounds then poured dice onto the knight, killing it. With the locus up, they were hitting 8/9 of the time, and rending on 6s. I was floored to see how fast they took the knight down.
This is nice as it serves as a nice counter to one of the big weaknesses of the tetrad, which are GMC.
Princes Fling Poo Too
Thanks to the people on this thread pointing it out, I learned that anyone with defensive grenades can throw a blind grenade.
This means that in every possible opportunity before assault with the Nurgle prince, I was throwing a blind grenade before assaulting.
Also remember that each prince has the primaris of their tree due to the daemon rule for focus. This means that the nurgle prince has the AP3 4+ poisoned template, and the slaanesh prince has the STR 6 24" beam. I wound up using those powers a good deal this event.
Tau movement. My opponent uses his star to screen out the riptide with the Relic. They are somewhat safe from assault this turn due to my Thirster swooping.
They shoot down the Nurgle DP.
As well as my Nurglings.
He then uses his jump moves in the Assault phase to completely screen out his Relic riptide.
Daemons Turn 4
Spoiler:
Crap. I don't have very much left and my opponent's army is still largely intact. Moreover, my Thirster needs to land this turn and survive 1 round of shooting. I don't like my chances....
But as long as there is still a chance, I will go for it. Thirster lands. Tzeentch DP goes for the long assault....
.....and makes it. Booyah!
My opponent makes a huge mistake. He went with Monster Hunter last turn instead of making his star Stubborn.
In one fell sweep (literally), I take out his star and his Warlord!
I then consolidate to surround his 'tides.
Tau Turn 5
Spoiler:
Riptides scramble to get away but there is no where for them to run.
Shooting does not do anything.
Daemons Turn 5
Spoiler:
My FMC's go in for the kill.
They charge and finish off both 'tides.
However, I need for the game to continue. Currently, the Relic is contested by his tetras. However, he is beating me badly on the Maelstrom objectives due to rolling for more favorable objectives. I need at least 1 more turn to take control of the Relic.
We roll to see if the game continues and....
Spoiler:
Game ends. Tau wins.
Just for fun, we played out the next turn and I would have controlled the Relic. I also had his Warlord. He would have taken the Maelstroms and Table Quarters. We would have tied had the game continued.
It's cool to see a battle report with the Tetrad, but having it in the middle of a tactics thread is making it confusing, especially with the big pictures and how it's spread out over more posts.
Would you be able to go back and put all the pictures in spoiler tags at least, so as not at least make it less intrusive and take up less (vertical) space?
I'd say so, if nothing more than taking out the Riptide. I played a games recently against 5 Riptides with FNP and neither my Tz Prince or Kh Prince could take them down. 3++ with FNP made them super hard to even wound, much less kill. In 3 rounds of CC I only did 1 wound to one of them. Having a D-weapon would have ignored the FNP and possible chopped through the 3++.
Spiky Norman wrote: It's cool to see a battle report with the Tetrad, but having it in the middle of a tactics thread is making it confusing, especially with the big pictures and how it's spread out over more posts.
Would you be able to go back and put all the pictures in spoiler tags at least, so as not at least make it less intrusive and take up less (vertical) space?
Though he isn't a force-multiplier like Fatey or Be'lakor, he is great IMO as a board control unit and total bad-a$$. In my first game with them, I was just experimenting to see the synergy of having a Thirster in a Tetrad build.
Though he isn't a force-multiplier like Fatey or Be'lakor, he is great IMO as a board control unit and total bad-a$$. In my first game with them, I was just experimenting to see the synergy of having a Thirster in a Tetrad build.
That's the main part I worry about. Princes are still pretty squishy, eve with the bonuses handed out by the Tetrad. For the same points you could've used Belakor, so do you think that wouldn't made much of a difference?
I'd say so, if nothing more than taking out the Riptide. I played a games recently against 5 Riptides with FNP and neither my Tz Prince or Kh Prince could take them down. 3++ with FNP made them super hard to even wound, much less kill. In 3 rounds of CC I only did 1 wound to one of them. Having a D-weapon would have ignored the FNP and possible chopped through the 3++.
Yeah, the D-thirster can kill like no other. Doesn't matter if you have a 3++ or 2++ with re-rollable saves and/or Invis. One 6 (after hitting) and it is game over for that unit. My thirsters rarely disappoint me.
Though he isn't a force-multiplier like Fatey or Be'lakor, he is great IMO as a board control unit and total bad-a$$. In my first game with them, I was just experimenting to see the synergy of having a Thirster in a Tetrad build.
That's the main part I worry about. Princes are still pretty squishy, eve with the bonuses handed out by the Tetrad. For the same points you could've used Belakor, so do you think that wouldn't made much of a difference?
Not in this case. That is because a good player will force you to break them up. You can't really stay in Be'lakor's bubble for long. The moment I saw my opponent's deployment, I knew what he was planning to do. Moreover, with Tau's ability to ignore cover, Be'lakor wouldn't have lasted very long in this game.
Overall, Be'lakor might be a better fit for the Tetrad but there are some instances where he wouldn't. This (and Tau in general) is one of those games where Be'lakor wouldn't really have made too much of a difference IMO. But honestly, I didn't take Be'lakor because I already know how well he synergizes with the list. Rather, I wanted to experiment with how my Thirster synergizes with the Tetrad instead.
I've found Be'lakor's 6" bubble to be a bit restrictive. The 12" bubble from cursed earth gives a lot more room to maneuver if you are looking for a buff.
In all my tetrad games with Be'lakor I've found him to be the weak link and he always dies first. This is because the other princes are rocking FNP buffs, rerolling invulns or some other buff.
The best companion to the Tetrad I've seen has been this list.
Spoiler:
Infernal Tetrad (1315pts)
Daemon Prince of Khorne w/ Armour of Scorn, 2x Greater Daemonic Reward, Lesser Daemonic Reward, Daemonic Flight
Daemon Prince of Nurgle w/ 2x Greater Daemonic Reward, Daemonic Flight, Mastery 3, Warp-forged Armour
Daemon Prince of Slaanesh w/ 2x Greater Daemonic Reward, Daemonic Flight, Mastery 3, Warp-forged Armour, SoulStealer
Daemon, Daemon of Slaanesh, Daemonic Instability, Deep Strike, Fear, Fleet, Hatred (Daemon of Khorne), Rending
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch w/Greater Daemonic Reward, Lesser Daemonic Reward, Daemonic Flight, Mastery 3, The Impossible Robe, Warlord
CaD (535pts)
Herald of Slaanesh w/Greater Reward
10 Daemonettes of Slaanesh w/Icon of Chaos
10 Daemonettes of Slaanesh w/Icon of Chaos
10 Daemonettes of Slaanesh w/Icon of Chaos
10 Daemonettes of Slaanesh
10 Daemonettes of Slaanesh
Attache the heralds to the daemonettes. Deep strike them all. Swoop the tetrad up on turn one, go gliding on turn two when all the daemonettes appear who won't scatter with cursed earth or icons. Profit!
Ive been experimenting with the tetrad, and I can't emphasize enough that the skullreaver weapon is incredible on the khorne prince. The fact that the bonus acts on to hit rolls with the amount of rolls a khorne prince gets, and reroll 1s with the tetrad, I have never NOT rolled a 6 and gotten at least 1 Strength D hit. And initiative 8 melee strength D is so strong.
Didn't think of the lash on the slaanesh prince with iron arm...that sounds fun!
I am soooo nervous about the impossible robe on the tzeentch prince, havent tried it...but I shall give it a go.
I have actually been using the tetrad with the warpflame host and LOVE IT. Right now I am running x6 exalted flamers and 3x3 flamers of tzeentch. I attach the herald to the furies (required aux for the detachment) as ablative wounds, and the flexibility of the exalted flamers (especially since their weapons are +1 strength) is SO nice
Ive also considered just dropping the regular flamers entirely and having 9 exalted flamers, gets me more gifts on the tetrad and more S10 and S6 flamer action, but lowers my ability to have fast capture units
labmouse42 wrote: Have you found any problems with the maneuverability of the exalted flamers, since all their weapons are 'heavy'?
Yeah, it is a real problem... I wish they could take discs, but that would probably be WAY too good. At least most of the units you go after in an army dont have the maneuverability to escape the exalted flamers provided you are a little brave with them in deepstrike.
What I have liked about them though, is though they only snap shot in the initial DS, with the corruption bonus on objectives that the demon decurion has, if you just throw them onto objectives, they become a real problem to dislodge. Shoot at them from afar and they still hold the objective. Come close to them and they throw out some seriously dangerous ranged firepower. I wish they at least had relentless or access to slow and purposeful or something, but oh well.
I just find that what really helps the tetrad is when the rest of your army is good for mealstrom and provides excellent area denial, as this gives the enemy few options as to where they should send their army. As well, if facing an assault army or an army requiring close range (like marine bikes, or droppods, etc) you could always just deploy the exalted flamers, wait for them to arrive, and blast away.
Ugg I wish regular flamers were still Ap3 or less, but what can ya do.
Also, if the mission has less objectives, I tend to join the exalted flamers to the regular flamers, this makes them even harder to dislodge, allows for some rules shenanigans, and the flamers can still dance around and be in range of things while still attached to the exalted flamers, while the exalted stand still.
@gameandwatch I've been using the Robes for a bit now and haven't had any problems. Tbh I think I've had to take maybe 2 ld tests and that was only when I didn't get cursed earth or the +1 invul warlord trait. It's worth having the better base invul especially if you can get it to a 2++ and just glide across the board unscathed.
The Impossible Robes is pretty boss, especially if you get +1 Inv from either Warlord Traits, Psychic Powers or the Warpstorm. I've only failed my LD test once, and that was when I was playing against a DE/Eldar/Harlequin army with LD-reduction shenanigans (-5 to LD!!!). Other than that, take Fatey if you don't feel comfortable without re-rolls. Fatey is still an outstanding force-multiplier for any Daemon list.
gameandwatch wrote: Didn't think of the lash on the slaanesh prince with iron arm...that sounds fun!
It's AP-, so it can have limited function. Marines still still get their 3+ save, meaning 6 wounds will kill 2 of them.
That said --- it's still funny to see someone's expression when you say.
"OK, I'm taking 2d6 shots at your knight, hitting on 2's and rerolling 1s. Oh, and it's STR 10"
gameandwatch wrote: I am soooo nervous about the impossible robe on the tzeentch prince, havent tried it...but I shall give it a go.
As mentioned earlier, the prince takes so few wounds that it very rarely pops. I've played the tetrad in over 20 games now and only had it pop once.
Nidzrule! wrote: What sort of meta list counters the Infernal Tetrad / flying circuses in general?
Thunderwolf deathstar or bike deathstars probably dont do super against this sort of list, my opinion is that it is probably a skill matchup.
Shooty deathstars though like, farsight bomb or wraithstars or centstar, will probably be advantaged against this sort of list?
Stomps.
Over half of my lost princes have been from getting stomped out of existence by stormsurges or wraithknights.
D weapons are also rough, but with most tourneys doing "D Lite" with rolls of a 6 only doing 3 wounds, it's not as bad. I'm more scared of the stomps from the WK than it's D sword.
Edit :
If stomps were changed so they could not effect MCs, the Tetrad would jump from a good list to a tier 1 list IMHO. That is what's holding them back.
anytime i see tetrad lists i see so few CW, ok most powers are1-2 cw only, but sometimes you need summon and 7 dices out of 9 are burned.... you sure tetrad can last long with just cursed earth?
@labmouse you talked about 50 demonettes+herald with tetrad but how many units you assume enter 2nd turn? you have no ways to manipulate reserves so if they dont come or come just 1 is useless, any army list have firepower enough to wipe out 10 T3 ts 5++ models, also with grimorie on.
Usually i play old style flying circus (kinda baraijmovic LVO 2015 list) and also with 14+d6WC sometimes i fall short of dices, i cant imagine with only 9+d6.
Nidzrule! wrote: What sort of meta list counters the Infernal Tetrad / flying circuses in general?
Thunderwolf deathstar or bike deathstars probably dont do super against this sort of list, my opinion is that it is probably a skill matchup.
Shooty deathstars though like, farsight bomb or wraithstars or centstar, will probably be advantaged against this sort of list?
Stomps.
Over half of my lost princes have been from getting stomped out of existence by stormsurges or wraithknights.
D weapons are also rough, but with most tourneys doing "D Lite" with rolls of a 6 only doing 3 wounds, it's not as bad. I'm more scared of the stomps from the WK than it's D sword.
Edit :
If stomps were changed so they could not effect MCs, the Tetrad would jump from a good list to a tier 1 list IMHO. That is what's holding them back.
Ironically, I have never actually had a problem with stomps. If I go after a wraithknight or a surge in combat, I only ever go after them with the best combat option, or overwhelming force. Usually I find the khorne prince with skullreaver to be more than enough for a wraithknight, surge(s) I usually double team with the balesword prince and the khorne prince, but a baleprince will kill a surge fairly quickly. If a balesword prince has iron arm on, he will also take care of a wraithknight very quickly.
This is of course, if you are not charging through cover...as even flying...the no grenades thing sucks hahaha.
blackmage wrote: you sure tetrad can last long with just cursed earth?
Absolutely. What makes it work are the greaters you can roll. Cursed earth + rerolling failed saves = 75% invuln. At this point I've played over 20 games with the Tetrad and I'm really getting a feel for them.
blackmage wrote: @labmouse you talked about 50 demonettes+herald with tetrad but how many units you assume enter 2nd turn? you have no ways to manipulate reserves so if they dont come or come just 1 is useless, any army list have firepower enough to wipe out 10 T3 ts 5++ models, also with grimorie on.
You should get 3 of the squads in. If you are really worried, you can grab an instrument or two to help this.
That makes it work is that it's a 'damned if you do' and 'damned if you dont' concept. Sure, you might shoot at the daemonettes, but then the Tetrad is going to slam into you. You might shoot at the tetrad, but then getting assaulted by 30 daemonettes is extremely bad.
You can also bubble wrap your tetrad from any GMCs that can stomp you out of existance. GMCs are actually quite scared of daemonettes who can rend them down through volume of attacks.
blackmage wrote: Usually i play old style flying circus (kinda baraijmovic LVO 2015 list) and also with 14+d6WC sometimes i fall short of dices, i cant imagine with only 9+d6.
You have to use powers that just have 1 warp charge to cast -- 2 tops. The tetrad is to busy shrieking and buffing to spend powers on summoning in most cases.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gameandwatch wrote: This is of course, if you are not charging through cover...as even flying...the no grenades thing sucks hahaha.
The Nurgle prince has defensive grenades. He can fling poo too!
So this is the adjusted 1850 list Ill probably run in my next game:
Army of Unreason detachment
Warpflame host Herald of tzeentch, disk of tzeench, mastery level 1, exalted reward (grimoire) x6 exalted flamers of tzeentch x3 flamers of tzeentch x3 flamers of tzeentch x3 flamers of tzeentch
Demon flock x5 chaos furies, mark of tzeentch
Demon Tetrad Demon prince, mark of khorne, flight, skullreaver, lesser reward (axe of khorne), x2 greater reward (roll)
Demon prince, mark of slaanesh, flight, greater reward (lash of despair), mastery level 3
Demon prince, mark of nurgle, flight, x2 greater reward(roll and balesword), mastery level 3
Demon prince, mark of tzeentch, flight, lesser reward (staff of change), mastery level 3, impossible robe
I I misread the hellforged artifact entry, thanks for the catch BACK ONTO THE HERALD IT GOES!!!
Most of the time, I am willing to take the risk on the princes...now realizing I didn't give them armor...but they would mostly be jinking anyways...I dunno.
Do you guys think armor is worth the price? Giving them 3+ saves, but making them now vulnerable to grav?
gameandwatch wrote: I I misread the hellforged artifact entry, thanks for the catch BACK ONTO THE HERALD IT GOES!!!
Most of the time, I am willing to take the risk on the princes...now realizing I didn't give them armor...but they would mostly be jinking anyways...I dunno.
Do you guys think armor is worth the price? Giving them 3+ saves, but making them now vulnerable to grav?
Depends on your meta. 3+ is useful against Tau and Eldar, but a liability against Grav-happy marine armies. It really depends on which you see more in your meta.
gameandwatch wrote: I I misread the hellforged artifact entry, thanks for the catch BACK ONTO THE HERALD IT GOES!!!
Most of the time, I am willing to take the risk on the princes...now realizing I didn't give them armor...but they would mostly be jinking anyways...I dunno.
Do you guys think armor is worth the price? Giving them 3+ saves, but making them now vulnerable to grav?
Depends on your meta. 3+ is useful against Tau and Eldar, but a liability against Grav-happy marine armies. It really depends on which you see more in your meta.
I guess I meant more from a purely TAC standpoint. Obviously with impossible robe, the tzeentch one doesnt need it. I just don't know where Id find the points for it.
Also, per where to target the grimoire, it is great to have if you roll the tzeentch warlord trait that gives +1 to invuls. Success means 2++ for anyone, and fail means back to the stock 5++.
jy2 wrote: Depends on your meta. 3+ is useful against Tau and Eldar, but a liability against Grav-happy marine armies. It really depends on which you see more in your meta.
+1 to this.
Where I play, 3/4 of my opponents are either daemons, eldar or tau -- so I bring them.
In my area, Tau, Eldar and Grav are all prevalent tournament builds. But at least I have the Void Shield Generator that protects my DP's from Grav, at least initially.
Ok guys, a few days ago I tried a "Pacific Rim" army list:
Spoiler:
#Infernal Tetrad:
-DP of T (warlord)
Psyker lvl3, Robe, 2xGreater
-DP of S
Psyker lvl3, Armor, 2xGreater
-DP of K
Armor of Scorn, 2xGreater, 1xLesser
-DP of N
2xGreater (yeah no armor, had to find points somewhere)
Strategy is simple : your giant robots and creatures go towards the ennemy, punching him in the face. And sometimes you throw stuff at him too.
I faced a BA/SM/Inq player with the following:
Spoiler:
-Mephiston + Coteaz + Sang Priest + 5 assaults marines melta, inferno pistol in Drop-pod
-Librarian lvl1 with the Hunter's Eye and 3 Grav-centurions in Drop-pod
-Furioso dreadnought in Drop-pod
-5 scouts
-5 scouts in LS Storm
-5 assaults marines melta, inferno pistol in Drop-pod
-Empty pod (i think)
-Stormtalon
-Stormtalon
-Fire Raptor
Here's the battle:
Spoiler:
We were playing the ITC emperor's will (mission 2 i think?)
As usual I roll a 5 for my warlord trait, ignoring the first perils (which with only 2 psykers is kinda meh). I always roll 5 or 6 on that table, its depressing. But heym I rolled pretty well on the rewards, getting FNP4+ on all but the Slaanesh prince. I also got the S8 AP1 lance shot on Nurgle and Slaanesh and decided to keep them. I longly hesitated to swap that weapon for the balesword on the nurgle guy and I wrongly decided to keep it as my opponent field a ton of vehicles and only 7 multi-wound models. Big mistake, should have swapped for the balesword. Power-wise I got cursed Earth, precog and prescience on the Tzeentch prince, Enfeelbe, Warp Speed and Endurance on the slaanesh one (sadlt no iron arm).
My opponent chose his table side and got first turn.
Turn1: My nurgle prince was my right flank so he decided to strike here with everything so that the rest of my army cant charge first turn. He drops the centurions with hunter's eye but hopefully the 6 to wound and some FNP allows my prince to stay at 2W. He also drops the furioso nearby behind the same prince. The Mephiston unit drops as well but do nothing while the scouts and grab some objectives.
On my turn 1 not much happens. The Khorne prince (who was on my other flank) decide to go for an objective i need while the rest of my army walks towards the ennemy. My two knights are heavily slowed by terrain when i roll like crap for their movements. My nurgle dude happily engage the centurions in close combat though, killing 1 and wound 2 others (I really should have taken that balesword!). Sadly they fail their morale and break combat while my prince is unable to sweep 'em because of SnP.
Turn 2: The Storm talon comes as well as the 2 remaining pods. The raptor stays put. Mephiston cast his S10 power as well as the new 3+ invul power on him. His unit also go for Force but fails (or is denied, dont remember). In his shooting phase my closest knight loses 5HP (only 1 left!) to the centurions and Stormtalons, my Nurgle DP hold his ground against the rest with his cover/FNP and prepare himself to receive Mephiston's unit charge. Because of Coteaz's psykout grenade or whatever, he's striking at I1 so the whole unit of marines go first. Thanks to cursed earth and FNP, nurgle dude stays alive with 1W. He strikes back and wound mephiston once (again, why did i take that crappy shooting weapon, whyyyy?). It's a draw so no instability test.
On my turn both my 1HP knight and Tzeentch DP prepare to come to my nurgle prince rescue. My slaanesh prince flies towards the talons and will destroy one and shake the other during the psychic/shooting phase. The last knight and the Khorne disciple make their ways to the side of the table full of marines. The 1HP knight and Tzeentch prince successfully charge Mephiston's unit that is locked down by my nurgle dude. All regular marines dies but all 3 characters stays alive. Mephiston loses another wound. My knight stomps 3 times, but no 6. The marines fail their morale test but a encouraged to stay by the Tzeentch prince.
Turn 3: The Fireraptor comes in, the remaining Talon goes out. The 2 centurions and the Raptor try to brind down the second knight (first one is locked in combat) and remove a few HP but nothing dramatic. During the close combat, both my princes wipe out the last wound on Mephiston as well as Coteaz and the Sang Priest.
Consequently in my turn the Nurgle prince go say hello to the last 2 centurions with the Librarian and will kill them all. My Tzeentch prince flies in the back of the dread and wreck him with flicker fire while charging and destroying a nearby land speeder full of scouts. Slaanesh prince unleash hell on the Raptor who decide to jink... and do nothing.
But here's my favorite moment of the game: both knights go full quarterback mode. They each charge a pod, grab'em and make two wonderful pass to different units of scouts and marines. Sadly those guys must have skipped training day because they are terrible at receiving a drop-pod pass and lose a few bodies in the process.
We look on the table, a few marines here and there, a jinking Fireraptor... and 6 angry robots/creatures. We shake hands.
It's a nice army, really fun to play. Real good punch in close combat. Also it's not a time consumming army so no fear of not seeing the end of the game.
Obviously the big drawback is having only 6 models that kinda have to always go towards the ennemy. So grabbing objectives is difficult but with the new ITC missions you can get a lot of "kill a unit" or "be in the opponent deployment zone".
My lessons from the game:
- Nurgle prince really needs that balesword. It's stupid to say, I knew it before the game, but it's true. Unless there is litteraly no multi-wound models or antyhing T6+, this guys really needs the weapon to be effective in close combat. It synergize so well with the tetrad : reroll 1 to hit, then reroll to wounds thanks to poison and the +1S from the tetrad.
- My knights need to learn how to D. Seems like im cursed but i can count on one hand the number of 6 I ever made with D weapons or stomps.
- Keeping the rewards is better than keeping the psychic levels. When building this list, you can't fully kite out the princes. And the only option to free up some points is either to remove some mastery levels or some rewards. If I had sacrificed a few rewards instead of a few mastery levels, my princes would have been dead.
- Knights are a good fire magnet to protect the princes. It's awesome to get the opponent more afraid of something than the princes, gives them real freedom to rampage through his ranks.
i saw the battle report against Tau, wonder if d thirster is really so useful, i mean in general matchup ,or better use things like be'lakor. of course if you know you are going aagainst a Tau you wont bring in be'lakor , but when you dont know what you will face like in tournament? i love D thirster i played lot of times and never disappointed me but i m not sure it will 100% fit in tetrad. i dont think i can support it properly.
RabbitMaster wrote: #Infernal Tetrad:
-DP of T (warlord)
Psyker lvl3, Robe, 2xGreater
-DP of S
Psyker lvl3, Armor, 2xGreater
-DP of K
Armor of Scorn, 2xGreater, 1xLesser
-DP of N
2xGreater (yeah no armor, had to find points somewhere)
Why not go 2 levels on all 3 psykers? This lets you dive twice each into biomancy to hopefully get iron arm or something.
You might be able to lose a greater off your Tzeentch prince to grab warp armor on your nurgle prince. The robes will do wonders for keeping the tzeentch prince alive, and the armor would help nurgle. The tzeentch prince also benifits greatly from a lesser to get the boomstick for +2 STR.
There is a 2 day event next weekend and that is exactly the list I am considering bringing.
Do you have any other tips and tricks for playing the knights correctly?
blackmage wrote: i love D thirster i played lot of times and never disappointed me but i m not sure it will 100% fit in tetrad. i dont think i can support it properly.
The tetrad are not support units. They will wind up using most of their psychic dice available for self-buffing. Getting that extra space to buff out a D-thirster might be hard.
RabbitMaster wrote: #Infernal Tetrad:
-DP of T (warlord)
Psyker lvl3, Robe, 2xGreater
-DP of S
Psyker lvl3, Armor, 2xGreater
-DP of K
Armor of Scorn, 2xGreater, 1xLesser
-DP of N
2xGreater (yeah no armor, had to find points somewhere)
Why not go 2 levels on all 3 psykers? This lets you dive twice each into biomancy to hopefully get iron arm or something.
You might be able to lose a greater off your Tzeentch prince to grab warp armor on your nurgle prince. The robes will do wonders for keeping the tzeentch prince alive, and the armor would help nurgle. The tzeentch prince also benifits greatly from a lesser to get the boomstick for +2 STR.
There is a 2 day event next weekend and that is exactly the list I am considering bringing.
Do you have any other tips and tricks for playing the knights correctly?
With this army there is 2 power I really want:
Iron Arm on the Slaanesh prince for some S10 dakka with the lash.
Cursed Earth, preferrably on the Tzeentch, to buff up a lot of people.
Having those two princes lvl3 allows me to fish harder for those powers harder than if I had three lvl2 (cause you have to reroll duplicate power on a psyker).
Plus I don't really care about getting Iron Arm on the Nurgle prince. He wounds everything but GC on 3+ rerollable, so this power would be mostly defensive on him. Whereas on the slaanesh prince, it is used both offensively and defensively. Plus it creates a real good answer to flyers and heavily armored vehicles. And if there are GCs on the table, then I have 2 knights to deal with them, plus the Khorne prince if I'm feeling lucky.
The good side of going 3x lvl2 is being able to take 3 psychic shriek if you want. That is something I really miss with my current setup.
As for advices for the knights, I'm pretty new to them so I can't pretend to have THE truth about them. Oh yeah, sacrifice a kitten or a virgin before the battle to get 6s on those D swings/stomps
I think I might rather drop the armor on the slaanesh prince than the nurgle prince. After all, the slaanesh one will be hard to hit all the time. With the knights on the table, unless your opponent has very heavy anti tank, they will be hard pressed to fire at the slaanesh prince with air craft. The nurgle prince is going to be in CC all the time, and could use that armor save a bit more.
I also really like this list. I think I might give it a try sometime. It's simple, like the daemon version of knights!
blackmage wrote: if you play demons, chaos knight will be always a better choice 3++/2++ save is awsome against lot of armies which just cant handle it.
Isn't that a LoW choice?
That means that unless your taking a CAD you can't get one. The Renegade knights are open to all. Orks, Black Legion, Daemonic Incursion, etc...
Yeah a Chaos Knight is a lot tougher with daemon shenanigans or relics of the ruins, but he is also a lot more expensive than a basic close-combat knight (~100pts more) and it requires you to have a CAD, which depending what you want is less than ideal.
If it's the ranged firepower that you're into then again the rengade knight has better option (dual gatling, mmmmmh).
Don't get me wrong, Chaos Knights are awesome and frightening (I play one in my current tournament list), but Renegades Knights just offers some options the Chaos Knight can't, and is overall more flexible and less costly.
RabbitMaster wrote: Yeah a Chaos Knight is a lot tougher with daemon shenanigans or relics of the ruins, but he is also a lot more expensive than a basic close-combat knight (~100pts more) and it requires you to have a CAD, which depending what you want is less than ideal.
If it's the ranged firepower that you're into then again the rengade knight has better option (dual gatling, mmmmmh).
Don't get me wrong, Chaos Knights are awesome and frightening (I play one in my current tournament list), but Renegades Knights just offers some options the Chaos Knight can't, and is overall more flexible and less costly.
depend...less costly if you use just melee weapons if you start add firepower it cost a lot and anyway a grimoried chaos knight can try to stand any kind of close combat/shoot punishment, a normal knight cant, for example if I play a D thirster i m happy to see a renegade instead a grimoired chaos knight the renegade die in 1 single melee round the second one die only if i roll "6", just an example.
My LGS is 50/50. We have tourneys every 1st Saturday of the months and some allow Unbound, some require Battle-Forged with not Come the Apoc allies. It just depends on who is the TO
Infernal tetrad cannot take a daemon knight without going unbound. It can take 2 renegade knights and remain battle forged. It isn't about if it is allowed or not for me, its that I don't prefer to be unbound.
Plus, how would you get the ++3 save? Infernal tetrad rarely has the grimore. Additionally, naked renegade knights are cheaper, I could fit 2 naked renegade knights with my tetrad at 2k. 35pt to spare, so I could throw a missile pod on one of them I guess.
gwarsh41 wrote: Infernal tetrad cannot take a daemon knight without going unbound. It can take 2 renegade knights and remain battle forged.
If you are taking the tetrad anyway without incursion detachment then it doesn't matter about being unbound. (and honestly battle forged is overated) I would think it would be a close call who would win in a fight between to renegade knights and a chaos knight buffed up with a 2++ (possibly re-rollable) invulnerable save.
I personally like to give the grimoire to the Nurgle prince, I know he can be good in cc but his 2+ cover save makes him brilliant as the flying support unit. Aren't the renegade knights 50pts cheapper because they have no ranged weapons base?
This thread isn't about bound or unbound, or about R knight vs D knight.
Which prince would you drop the greater rewards on for the grimoire? Khonre or Tzeentch? Both can get by with just the lesser. Not having balesword option on nurgle is a big risk, and not having lash option on slaanesh just seems like a bad idea. I guess you could go for sword/grimoire on nurgle, but passing up the chance for a greater reward is risky. Nevermind, question answered!
Yeah, they have no ranged, and the battle report that used them reflected that. Really though, do you need the ranged? What tetrad lists have been discussed in this thread that have ranged abilities?
most time SL prince have exalted reward and still have the lash or Tz can have , is the DP more protected usually so he can drop a greater reward. Anyway i would be happy if i face renegade with my flying circus instead a grimoired 2++ chaos knight, my personal preference
RabbitMaster wrote: Yeah a Chaos Knight is a lot tougher with daemon shenanigans or relics of the ruins, but he is also a lot more expensive than a basic close-combat knight (~100pts more) and it requires you to have a CAD, which depending what you want is less than ideal.
If it's the ranged firepower that you're into then again the rengade knight has better option (dual gatling, mmmmmh).
Don't get me wrong, Chaos Knights are awesome and frightening (I play one in my current tournament list), but Renegades Knights just offers some options the Chaos Knight can't, and is overall more flexible and less costly.
depend...less costly if you use just melee weapons if you start add firepower it cost a lot [...]
Well here's how I see it : a Chaos Knight cost at least 425pts if you go with the dirge caster (pretty mandatory for 5pts only) and one of the two cheapest mark. He's good in close combat, but kinda meh in terms of dakka. From there 3 possibilities :
A/ If you're only interested into close-combat ability, the Renegade is wayyy cheaper (100pts less) for more or less the same prowess: a few D swings and stomps. It lacks the better D sword but has 1 more attack due to having two weapons, and it can throw stuff at your opponent face. Plus it doesnt requires you to take a CAD, which can be perceived as an additional tax sometimes. So you get a 100pts discount plus whatever the CAD is a tax for you.
B/ If you are only interested into the ranged firepower aspect, then a double-gatling Renegade Knight is just straight out better than the CK for the about the same price (435pts). Again, you also don't have to take a CAD, so if you did not intend to take one, the Renegade is actually cheaper by the amount of that CAD.
C/ If you want a mixed-bag knight (both CC and ranged), then you are looking at a 375pts Renegade (gatling+sword), again, cheaper than the CK and same problem for the potential CAD-tax
So yeah, overall the Renegade *is* cheaper than the Chaos Knight, that's just a fact.
If you want to pull out the 2++/3++ shenanigans you also need to factor something in : the cost of the grimoire and it's holder. Granted it's usually not too much of a problem for us demon player but still, it has one great effect : it put constraint on your list building process.
Typically, you don't want your grimoire holder to be easily killable, otherwise the ennemy will just eradicate him from the table. So either you put him on a flying MC (who tags at 300+pts) or on a herald in a strong enough unit (easily 250+pts). Even just a basic unit of say plaguebearer in cover with a grimoire herald clocks at 165pts. So by deciding that you want to play a grimoired CK, you are blocking 600-700pts of your army budget. Power-wise it's not bad because chances are your flying MC or herald in a unit will do a lot of work too during the game, but it really make your list building a lot less flexible (especially if you add the CAD requirement).
Now with a bit of luck, a well-supported Chaos Knight is indeed almost indestructible. But it cost a lot to field him + the support unit, and makes your army list building process more stringent. It's basically a death-star list building approach.
The Renegade Knights are far from indestructible, but they are always cheaper, and doesnt constraint your list building.
considering the actual meta, in most cases full with grav marines i prefer a more durable chaos knight which can make those nasty grav bounce and make them useless, grimorie on a piece hard to kill like a DP TZ with robes last enough and require a big amount of firepower to try to kill, so most armies just havent so much firepower to take down both, then usually i play also a D thirster (sometimes invisible or with a 4++ save and double rewarded) so what you try to kill 1st? i played it and i know that for sure, if try to kill grimorie bearer (and most time fail) you let knight rampage trough your army, if you try kill knight you anyway most time fail, with renegade just centurions with grav could potentially dispatch it in 1 turn... so i really dont know, in a list wich can easily play grimorie and cursed earth i feel chaos knight is still better than renegade, just my opinion of course, probably in tetrad renegade is better cause tetrad has less support for a chaos knight .
I agree with blackmage in the way to bring your knights. Here are two lists I'm thinking of bringing to a two day tourney next week. The first utilizes the support behind a daemon knight giving him a 3++ or 2++ in half the turns or more. Supported by a warphost, fatey, and objective secured spawning units -- it's a damn hard list.
The second list is one where that the Renegade Knights shine. A tetrad.
Grimiore the Knight Paladin of Slaanesh. With Fateweaver's warp storm manipulation that should be a 2++ on most turns. Fateweaver is flying around during this time just causing as much havoc as possible.
List Two: Pacific Rim - Tetrad with Renegades
Spoiler:
Infernal Tetrad ···Daemon Prince of Khorne [Armour of Scorn, 2x Greater Reward, 1x Lesser Reward, Flight] ···Daemon Prince of Nurgle [2x Greater Reward, 1x Lesser Reward, Flight, ML 2] ···Daemon Prince of Slaanesh [2x Greater Reward, Flight, ML 2] ···Daemon Prince of Tzeentch [The Impossible Robe, 2x Greater Reward, 1x Lesser Reward, Flight, ML 2]
Chaos Renegade Knights Forsworn Knight Detachment ···Renegade Knight [Reaper Chainsword, Thunderstrike Gauntlet] ···Renegade Knight [Reaper Chainsword, Thunderstrike Gauntlet] This is a lot more of a direct list. 6 high threat targets coming in hard and fast. It does not have the finesse of the first list, but has a lot more beat face elements. The idea is overwhelm your opponent with the sheer amount of incoming damage.
@labmouse: Portal Glyph troops are not ObSec. Both ITC and NOVAFAQs specify that spawned troops do not count as part of a detachment. Its a tough list though. Should do well generally.
List 1 is more balanced than the Tetrad list. I think its better over all. The high buy-in costs of the Tetrad make it vulnerable to more asymmetric matchups than the Incursion list.
PanzerLeader wrote: @labmouse: Portal Glyph troops are not ObSec. Both ITC and NOVAFAQs specify that spawned troops do not count as part of a detachment. Its a tough list though. Should do well generally.
List 1 is more balanced than the Tetrad list. I think its better over all. The high buy-in costs of the Tetrad make it vulnerable to more asymmetric matchups than the Incursion list.
Thanks for the catch. I just double checked and you are correct about the portalglyph units. We all help keep each other honest
I also think the first list will do better at in ITC missions. For NOVA missions, I think the second will do better -- mostly because you can't take chaos knights at NOVA. I would be forced to take a double gatling knight instead. Not that such a knight is bad, I just think that the daemon knight synargizes better since you can get it down to a 2++, which lets is possibly counter a WK.
In ITC you are, by default, always progressive scoring, where in NOVA you can choose to score at the end. This is something Tetrad's as a whole can do better. I've played the Tetrad's a LOT lately, and they have a hard time with progessive scoring as they want to be smashing face and not squatting on objectives. In NOVA style missions they just plan on tabling their opponents, or getting as close to it as possible.
Remember that NOVA missions are asymmetrical. Do you have enough units in list two to prevent them from running up a high score?
For example, against the monster list I'd do progressive scoring, strike the rank and file, line breaker, through attrition victory, and marked for death. I'd mark one of the two knights.
For scoring purposes, I'd start the game by automatically achieving Strike the Rank and File (+2). Every three hull points dealt to a knight give me a secondary point so killing the marked knight nets me a total of +4 (+6 total). If I kill the second knight or have a single unit line breaking, I will max out my secondary points (+8) total. Notice I don't actually have to engage the Tetrad itself to make this happen.
With only two ground units, it will be difficult to prevent me from maxing out on progressives but lets assume you prevent me on a turn or two and I end up with 7 out of 9 points (+15 total) for a realistic end of game total of 17 out of 21 points (assuming two tertiary points for killing the two renegade knights in different turns). It would be hard for a Tetrad list to match this total given that Nova end of game requires covering many objectives to max and not just covering a single objective more like ITC.
maybe a nice list for scoring obj also in nova/ITC could be murder host+burning skyhost
k herald 8x5 hounds
tz herald 9x3 screamers
fatey
fast, hit hard enough, lot of wounds a minimal psy support, tried it against eldar and gladius and works very fine.
The tetrad is gliding in 80% of it's turns. They are to expensive to swoop around and use as shooting. Their job is to get in there and beat face. 6 fast moving units can grab 6 objectives fairly easily if you are staying somewhat near the board center by turn 5. In most games, you will have removed enough of the opponents models by turn 5 where they can't lly stop you.
All of your other points are very valid, I'm just trying to understand what you ment by this?
Just that you can't count on the tetrad always being in glide because it's difficult to encapsulate all possible opponents/situations in one post. If you play a drop centurion army heavy army, you'd likely elect to swoop until they've landed and you've had a chance to counter deploy. The two knights will always score/deny, the princes may not depending on how the game unfolds.
The other problem with just six units in the Nova format is that killing just 2 prevents you from maxing out. It forces you to summon which is less optimal in terms of damage output and creates targets that your opponent can handle instead of being mostly irrelevant.
CHAOS KNIGHTS VS RENEGADE KNIGHTS - WHICH IS THE RIGHT KNIGHT FOR YOU?
For the release of the new Imperial Knights: Renegade, Chaos players now have options for their Super-heavy walkers. Assuming Forgeworld experimental units are allowed in your competitive meta, we now have the Khorne Lord of Skulls, the Kytan, the Chaos Knight and the Renegade Knight. The Lord of Skulls has its niche as an over-priced, under-performing LoW Super-heavy. The Kytan fills the need for an excellent and reasonably priced assault Super-heavy walker. As for the Chaos and Renegade Knights, they are more of a low-cost, all-purpose Super-heavy that can fit into the budget of many Chaos lists. The question then is, why should you take one over the other? What are their roles and how do they differ? Which one is better? In this mini-tactica, I will take a more in-depth look at the two knights. I will also rank them according to their strengths and weaknesses.
So why am I qualified to write about the Chaos and Renegade Knights? What is my expertise with them?
I am currently running a Chaos Knight with one of my Chaos armies. I currently run a Khorne Knight in a meta (the ITC) which allows one to use them in tournament play. I have had some success with him, going 5-1 and placing 13th at the LVO. As for the Renegade Knights, I admit that I have not actually run one yet. They are still so new that the rules actually have not even been officially released yet at the time of this article. However, I have and do run Imperial Knights. I have run anywhere from 1 to 5 Knights before. I have also played against anywhere from a 1 to 5 Knight army as well. Renegade Knights are almost identical to the Imperial ones, with the only difference being Imperial ones have better formations. But if you are talking about an apples to apples comparison (Forsworn versus the Oathsworn detachments), then the tactics you use between the two are basically the same. Hence, my experiences with the Imperial Knights should be fully applicable to the Renegade ones as well.
RENEGADE KNIGHT
So why should you take a Renegade Knight over a Chaos Knight?
Multiple Knights. With the Chaos Knight, you can only take one. With the Renegade Knight, you can take up to 3. If you want to run more than 1 knight in a tournament system/format like the ITC or others, then your only choice is the Renegade Knight. +1
Can be taken with non-Chaos factions. Many tournaments do not allow for Come the Apocalpyse allies. You want to run Imperial Knights with Orks or Necrons without resorting to Come the Apocalypse allies? Then your only choice are the Renegade Knights. +1
No Tax units. Unlike Chaos Knights, which would require you to take a Combined Arms Detachment, you do not need to take any other units to unlock the Renegade Knight. They are playable as is without requiring you to take any "tax" units. +1
Better shooters. The Renegade Knight can be configured to be a better shooter than the Chaos Knight. For up to 60-pts more, you can in essence double its firepower. The Renegade Knight is also a more flexible shooter, with options for 3 different guns as opposed to only 2 for the Chaos Knight. +1
Multiple Knights = more Stomps! While a single Renegade Knight is not better than a Chaos Knight in assault, multiple Renegade Knights in close combat are more dangerous simply because they are more stompy. Against normal units, that may not necessarily matter, but when you can assault multiple knights into an enemy deathstar unit, those extra stomp attacks will hurt. By the ways, I did not bring up the Destroyer attacks because a Chaos Knight with a D-Thirster will still out-punch 2 Renegade Knights, but they won't out-stomp 2 Renegades. +1
Better durability versus small-arms firepower. When you take a Chaos Knight + something else, the "something else" can usually be hurt by small-arms firepower (S5 or less). With multiple Renegades, you are basically immune to small-arms firepower as well as most normal close-combat attacks. +1
Ranking: +6
CHAOS KNIGHT
Contrarily, you should take a Chaos Knight over a Renegade Knight because....
Daemon Knight. This is a humongous and probably the main distinction between the 2 types of knights. This is what makes the Chaos Knight a Chaos Knight rather than just a Renegade Knight. But before I go on, I want to note that in a format such as the ITC, a Daemon Knight of <Specific God> also counts as a Daemon of <Specific God>. That means that a Chaos Knight will have a 5++ Invulnerable save along with some other bonuses. This is a huge boon. A 5++ save means that a Chaos Knight is 50% more survivable than a Renegade Knight overall (not counting Ion Shields). You need to deal 6HP of damage to kill a Renegade Knight. For a Chaos Knight, you need to deal an average of 9HP of damage to kill him. Furthermore, the more durable a Knight is, the more damage it can do simply by being able to survive longer to inflict more pain. Then there are the other bonuses that comes along with being a Daemon Knight. +2
Force-multiplier additions to increase durability. The Chaos Knight is way more durable than a Renegade Knight because of the force-multiplier effects you can bundle onto it. Just a successful Grimoire on it (3++ Invulnerable with a 2++ on its Ion Shield facing) means that you will need to do 18 HP's of damage on average to kill him! That increases his durability over a Renegade Knight by 300%. That means 1 Chaos Knight is just as survivable as 3 Renegade Knights!!! If you count the Ion Shield facings (assuming all of the enemy firepower is directed at the shielded facing), it will take 12HP of damage to kill a normal Renegade Knight (4++). Shooting a Grimoire'd Chaos Knight at his Ion Shield facing (2++) would require you to do 36HP of damage!!!
Then you have powers such as Cursed Earth, Forewarning and a Relic that can be cast/used to increase the Chaos Knight's durability even more. This essentially turns the Chaos Knight into a deathstar all by itself. In one game, I have had my Chaos Knight go through a Brass Scorpion and several Chaos walkers (Soulgrinders and Blood Slaughterers) all by himself. I have had him survive the firepower of an entire Tau army and a Gladius Battle Company as well. With force-multipliers, his durability becomes God-like. Not even 3 Renegade Knights can withstand the amount of punishment a fully-buffed Chaos Knight can. +2
Dirge Caster. This is a nifty option available to the Chaos Knight that his Renegade cousin does not have. While not necessarily useful at all times, it is a good feature against certain armies, namely Tau with their Supporting Fire and Dark Angels Battle Company with their full-BS Overwatch. +.5
Better in close-combat. Yes, a Chaos Knight is better than a Renegade Knight in close combat, even with the same configurations. Assuming ITC intepretations, just the 5++ Invuln save (potentially buffed up to a 3++ or even 2++) makes a big difference in assault. However, a Khorne Knight also gets +D3 Attacks on the charge and can re-roll the number of Stomp attacks. The Tzeentch Knight re-roll saves of 1 as well as To Hit rolls of 1. The Nurgle Knight has It Will No Die and Shroud, and the Slaanesh Knight is Fleet, runs an extra 3" and can potentially cause the enemy to strike at Initiative 1. +1
Chaos Relics. If you are playing in the ITC format, then you can take Chaos Legacy Relics on your Chaos Knights (under certain conditions). Each Relic has different abilities but there is one in particular that is really good on a Khorne Knight. I won't go into detail with it here, but suffice to say, being able to take Relics on a Chaos Knight is a boon. +1
Cost Effectiveness. Whereas a single Renegade Knight is cheaper on average, a Chaos Knight is the more cost effective unit especially when taking into account its durability. An unbuffed Chaos Knight is 1.5x more durable than a Renegade Knight. However, most of the time, you would want to buff up your Chaos Knight. A fully buffed Chaos Knight is potentially 3x more durable than a Renegade Knight. You are getting much more bang for the buck with the Chaos Knight. The Chaos Knight is much more resilient than even 2 Renegade Knights, but for the cost of the 2 Renegades, you can take a Chaos Knight as well as a Greater Daemon/Daemon Prince with the Grimoire. Not only are the Chaos Knight + FMC combo much more resilient, but they can do much more damage than the 2 Renegades. +1
Better scoring. You can actually build a more balanced Chaos list with better scoring units with the Chaos Knight than with multiple Renegade Knights. For example, for the price of 2 Renegade Knights (750-pts), you can get a Khorne Knight, a Herald of Nurgle and 6 units of 3 Nurglings (almost a full Tallyband!). Whereas the Renegade Knights will play better in a Victory Points mission, the Chaos Knight + troops is the better overall Take-All-Comer's build due to the fact that it plays the objective game much, much better. +1
Ranking: +7.5
CONCLUSION
To me, it is a no-brainer. The Chaos Knight is the better choice between the 2 types of Knights. For just a miminal cost increase, the performance of the Chaos Knight out-performs and out-survives the Renegade Knight at an exponential pace. The Chaos Knight is a threat that rivals that of a deathstar and with the resiliency to boot. You can also build a more balanced army with a Chaos Knight with much better scoring than you can with multiple Renegade Knights. There are reasons to run Renegades - when you want to run multiple Knights in your army, when you want to take a Knight with a Necron or Ork detachment, if you are so tight with points that you actually cannot afford to take a Chaos Knight or if your meta simply does not allow Forgeworld experimental units. Other than that, there really is no reason to take the Renegade over a Chaos Knight. The Chaos Knight is superior by far.
In closing, I will leave you with an 1850 Chaos Knight/Infernal Tetrad list that I am planning to run in the future.
Daemon Prince of Khorne - Flight, 2x Greater, 1x Lesser, Armour of Scorn
Daemon Prince of Nurgle - Flight, ML 2, 2x Greater
Daemon Prince of Slaanesh - Flight, ML 2, 1x Exalted (Grimoire), 1x Greater
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch - Flight, ML 2, 2x Greater, 1x Lesser, Impossible Robes
Herald of Tzeentch - ML 2
11x Pink Horrors
3x Nurglings
Chaos Knight of Tzeentch (or Khorne)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Unsure why you would ever take MoT, as the bonuses for MoK are just terribly tasty.
My only issue is having to take a CAD with the Chaos Knight. That said, if you already WERE taking a CAD...
The Tzeentch Knight is a more defensive Knight (though the re-roll 1's To Hit is also pretty good offensively). The Khorne Knight is a more offensive Knight. Actually, it all comes down to personal preference and sometimes, the theme of the army.
Yeah, one of the drawbacks to taking a Chaos Knight is that you need to take a CAD. However, it isn't so bad to take a CAD. There are many units in the CAD that can help, but if you really need to go dirt cheap, then go with a Renegades CAD. You can get a Renegade CAD for less than 100 (and with a Psyker)!
jy2 wrote: Yeah, one of the drawbacks to taking a Chaos Knight is that you need to take a CAD. However, it isn't so bad to take a CAD. There are many units in the CAD that can help, but if you really need to go dirt cheap, then go with a Renegades CAD. You can get a Renegade CAD for less than 100 (and with a Psyker)!
Well the problem with the Renegade CAD is that they can't take a Chaos Knight (also you have to take an Arch-demagogue as your HQ because they have a 1+ requirement)
. What size is the base if a Prince? I might be able to use my Perturabo as a Slaanesh prince to atleast test out the powers...
