I know I for one have a couple ideas about what is wrong with the Orks in 7th edition, but I would like to hear from the community at large, what is the biggest weakness of the Ork Codex?

My opinion is that we are an assault oriented army that doesn't have any of the cool new assault things. Like Assaulting from deep strike, assaulting from outflank, assaulting from anything pretty much except a trukk/battlewagon. And even then when we do get to assault we are only good for 1 turn before we drop back down to S3 on Boyz and S4 on Nobz.

Another glaring weakness in our codex is we don't have a single HQ worth a damn do to not having an invul save. So the only way to get your IC a save against power weapons is with a painboy giving you a 5+ FNP which you don't get against S10 weapons.

So anyway, what do you think is the biggest weakness/problem with the ork dex.

From my limited knowledge of the Tabletop Orks as well as Ork fluff, two (arguably) big issues with the Orks are:

-- They need to be tougher (i.e. higher toughness values and more vehicles with higher AVs)

-- I feel like they should have a Feel No Pain (5+) or at least a Feel No Pain (6+) for most (if not all) of their units. It would allow them to survive longer and would be more in keeping with the fluff.

It depends on your angle.

The simple answer: Their point cost that is what is wrong with them. They are just not close to being worth its point.

The longer answer: There is noting wrong with orks. The ork codex seemed to be a start at rebalancing the game by powering down all the op madness in codexes. The nasty thing about it is that most codexes after it got a power increase instead of a nerf.

The biggest problem with the work codex is that there's a mechanic specifically to kill your own boyz. Compared to the old Mob Rule, the one in the new book is terrible. A chance to either have my mob run away or get pinned anyway (unless I'm in melee), take 1d6 str 4 hits or take 1d6 str 4 hits? Vs using the number of models as my leadership and getting fearless if there's 11 or more. Yes, that didn't help small units, but the current rule only helps heavily armored units (so, Meganobz and ork bikers only), and basically murders trukk boyz if their rides goes boom (and it will go boom)

Stuff like not having good assault stuff I think is less the fault of the ork codex and more a problem with the main rule book. There's now this expectancy that an assault codex will have an amazing death star or special rules/formations that'll make assault viable, when rather assault rule should not be the warm pile of wet newspaper that it is now.

It is rather a shame about the HQs. Painboyz are basically mandatory, the uselessness of a beat stick SQ like the warboss makes it awkward that you HAVE to take him if you want THE important ork rule, and it's sad that the Mek's main use is to cover for two terrible mechnaics (since he counts as a character for Breaking Heads and Challanges), the weirdboy is still just lousy (they actually made the powers worse than the 4th edition version!) and the Big Mek is alright but he lost quite a bit of flexibility with the KFF (and the SAG is still kinda meh).

Oh yeah, and WTF was GW thinking with turning Cyborks into a +6 FNP save?! I would have at least been okay (if not happy) if it was +5, but +6?! SERIOUSLY?!

Orks like AM are competative at low point games (750-) and High point games (3500+) but suck in between

The just look at the rules answer:

They are bad at shooting. Bs2 and no access to serious ranged weapons makes them bad at shooting. They don't have melta, lascannon or grav equivalents.Their best weapons are S8 plasma cannons and assault cannons with d3 shots.

They really don't like to get shot at. Their abysmal saves in combination with the lowest non FW LD in the game makes and no dirty defensive tricks makes their units really fragile. Shooting units can't really affort to be shot at back and footsloggers are having a bad time reaching the other side of the board.

They are bad at close combat. Orks have the immago to be a menace in close combat. Most orks strike last and only have S3. This doesn't really cut it. Ork terminators and almost all characters don't have inv saves in close combat this makes them inferior to all decent close combat armies.

Ork vehicles have generally low AV and are open topped, making them cinematic but also really dangerous for non terminator passengers.

This all isn't that bad actually. I would not really care if my units where hilariously bad as long as I could field enough of them to balance it all out. Its the point cost that's the real issue most ork models are just not worth its points this makes them really bad.

The other major issue is that GW makes Ork model too expensive. You can't really expect us to pay more euro's for a model that is less points then their equivalents in other armies.

 oldzoggy wrote:
The just look at the rules answer:

They are bad at shooting. Bs2 and no access to serious ranged weapons makes them bad at shooting. They don't have melta, lascannon or grav equivalents.Their best weapons are S8 plasma cannons and assault cannons with d3 shots.

They really don't like to get shot at. Their abysmal saves in combination with the lowest non FW LD in the game makes and no dirty defensive tricks makes their units really fragile. Shooting units can't really affort to be shot at back and footsloggers are having a bad time reaching the other side of the board.

They are bad at close combat. Orks have the immago to be a menace in close combat. Most orks strike last and only have S3. This doesn't really cut it. Ork terminators and almost all characters don't have inv saves in close combat this makes them inferior to all decent close combat armies.

Ork vehicles have generally low AV and are open topped, making them cinematic but also really dangerous for non terminator passengers.

This all isn't that bad actually. I would not really care if my units where hilariously bad as long as I could field enough of them to balance it all out. Its the point cost that's the real issue most ork models are just not worth its points this makes them really bad.

The other major issue is that GW makes Ork model too expensive. You can't really expect us to pay more euro's for a model that is less points then their equivalents in other armies.

This is more or less exactly what is wrong with Orks. Fragile units with morale issues that don't have the tools to handle the latest in a cost effective manner but yet our units aren't cheap enough to have quantity make up for the lack of quality. Fix their morale issues (mob rule as it currently stands is hot garbage), tweak some points, and give some durability options (like invuln saves for Nobz and Warbosses, cheaper armor upgrades, less explody transports, etc), and we can make our numbers become more effective.

Our army is geared for assault, but assault is really difficult compared to shooting.

A shooty unit gets in range, and then shoots. Done.

An assaulty unit gets within range, can fail its charge, gets shot at when it charges, makes itself more likely to fail a charge by shopting first, and then generally hits last so takes a beating before it can do anything.

On top of that casualties removed from the front make it harder to make a charge against shooty armies.

Add to that poor toughness/saves, gakky LD, and the ability to kill our own boyz because of said bad leadership and you have problems.

IMO, Orks are just too squishy. If they're not in a vehicle (which doesn't always help anyway) they're not going to go very far without being mowed down by... Anything really.

The only real selling point, at least for me, is that there's a lot of them, which can slightly increase the survivability of a squad as a whole, but will still get absolutely rekt if they don't get in melee ASAP. And even then...

Some of their weapons are decent, and can do a fair amount of damage before getting killed (if used correctly I guess) but, the bigger units who have said weapons become a serious bullet magnet, and will often get destroyed a lot quicker than you'd expect. Even Stompas.

All in all, Orks ain't tough enough for me.

We don't have means of dealing with cheeze point-effectively. That's it. Extremely mobile 2+ re-rollable with hit and run, getting overloaded with cheapo s6 and undercosted GMC we can't even hope to kill or something like that.

And yep, orks are not nearly as durable as they used to be. 6 pt boyz are less durable due to mob rule than they used to be. Yet, a 14 pt marine is more killy than a 16+ pt marine due to chapter tactics. And things like scat bikes and bolter cents just remove a squad of boyz per turn remaining un-reachable.

What is wrong with Orks ?

Everything



We have 0 shooting, we have no armor save, we are slow, we have str 3 ( WTF we are Orks ... ), we dont have any invu ( exept MFF... ), our psychic phase sucks ( which is fine tho ), our transports are bad and you can't win if you dont use the Big Mek Stompa in competitives games.

How could we fix it ? Drop the cost of a few units, give us a damn str 4 so we stop getting reck everytime in CC and make our transports viables. There we go !

alex0911 wrote:
What is wrong with Orks ?

Everything

Pretty much, yeah. :(

Like others said, I think dropping points costs everywhere would go a long way towards fixing at least part of the book. Orks are also lacking in effective anti-tank weaponry, too. Definitely need more/better guns, because as it is I think their best method for taking out vehicles is just walking up to them and punching them...doesn't really work.

Also, Mob Rule is fething stupid. Can't believe someone was paid to come up with that.

Nothing. Most (not all) non-Ork things are wrong.

When I faced Orks in my local meta, I saw 3 common problems with the lists :

1) Not enough bodies. Really, I was playing with roughly 40 Marines and they had no more than 50 to 60 boyz tops.

2) Limiting themselves to one CAD for 1850 points games, which meant they couldn't scale up their FA/HS slots. Which is a shame considering the cheap HQs available and the need for quite a generous number of boys.

3) A monodimensional list : I'm not sure if this is because of the choices in the codex or their list building, but a large majority of my opponnents were just spamming melee units with no fire support.
For example, within a single CAD at 1850 points, you can fit 30 Lootas for 420 points. With 2 CADs at 1850 points, you can fit 60 Lootas for 840 points and spend the rest on a more "assault" (as in not melee, but operating in the enemy table half) force of boys with Objective Secured, Nobz and Burnas/TankBustas

I would be very, VERY concerned to face 60 Deffguns on a table. That's between 20 and 60 autocannon hits per turn (so 60 to 180 shots).

The current state of 40k is usually "take a list that works at 750 points" and scale it up rather than add tactical elements.

I think 2 things are to blame: 1st) is the power creep. Other factions can do more for less points and still have greater resiliency. 2nd) a lot of people play them as you would marine or any other elite combined arms army. With orks, resiliency comes from numbers and from numbers comes redundancy. Never use 1 unit to do anything, use at least 2. Your opponent will eb able to shoot something, try and offer them the targets you'd prefer to get shot at.

Its not a winning formula against tough lists but for fun 1850pt play take 2 ork horde detachments or CADs, throw down 4x30 boyz with 4 painboyz for 1080pts for 120 FnP boyz. (if you want more points for play just do 3 x 30). get a da finkin kap and roll for 2 traits on strategic and hope for, infiltrate 3 units (6" free move towards the enemy at the cost of not charging turn 1), night fighting, and the city fighter one. IMO, its how orks should be played, over half your points on cannon fodder. Let your opponent have fun shooting your horde to bits but make sure you have enough other stuff to cripple them.

Aside from a few questionable rules, nothing is wrong with Orks.

The problem is everyone else. Eldar as everyone knows are OP. Tau shoot them off the board. IoM makes use of it's extensive armory to deal with whatever you might have. Necrons are way too durable to deal with.

The core BrB doesn't do them favours too. But when you've got an assault based army in 7th edition, yeah you're going to struggle in a shooty edition. Khorne Daemonkin gets by because they can dish out some good shooting but more importantly are fast (Bikes, Cavalry, Beasts, Deep Strike) and predominately Fearless (so no running back and increasing the distance you run).

Orks aren't the problem. They do fine against: CSM, Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, AM, SOB, even marines if they don't have grav, cents, and aren't white scars, and non-decurion Necrons.

The issue is more to do with Aspect hosts, Cents stars, and Super Friend type shenanigans.

As well, as far a mob rule goes, it's about 1-2 boys a turn, so the equivalent of summary execution for AM. The issue people seem to have is that it's random, so you can't rely on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, LOS blocking terrain. But, in all fairness, most armies need that now a days.

Hunam0001 wrote:
even marines if they don't have grav

Why would anyone pick grav against orks?

Hunam0001 wrote:
Orks aren't the problem. They do fine against: CSM, Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, AM, SOB, even marines if they don't have grav, cents, and aren't white scars, and non-decurion Necrons.

It's worth noting that Chaos Space Marines are in dire need of a codex update themselves, and Sisters of Battle even more so.

It's also worth noting that while the "Restrictions" you've imposed on Space Marines isn't crippling, it shows that there's elements which are lacking in the Ork Codex rather than anything else. The same goes for the Necrons.

TLDR? Orks (among others) need to be buffed first before they can be properly compared to other races.


As a side note: Every codex has the capability to produce a very powerful list. One of the main differences is that the weaker/more unbalanced the codex is, the harder it is to make such a list and the more limited the options are.

They're not terribly survivable, and everything gets to hit before them in close combat, even Guardsmen.

 Purifier wrote:

Hunam0001 wrote:
even marines if they don't have grav

Why would anyone pick grav against orks?

If you don't know you are playing Orks, you will have grav in your list.

Martel732 wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Hunam0001 wrote:
even marines if they don't have grav

Why would anyone pick grav against orks?

If you don't know you are playing Orks, you will have grav in your list.

Right, but it was mentioned as a problem for Orks if the enemy Space Marine had Grav. Their tshirts don't weigh very much.

If anything, everyone bringing Grav is the one thing Orks can capitalise on.

 Purifier wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Hunam0001 wrote:
even marines if they don't have grav

Why would anyone pick grav against orks?

If you don't know you are playing Orks, you will have grav in your list.

Right, but it was mentioned as a problem for Orks if the enemy Space Marine had Grav. Their tshirts don't weigh very much.

If anything, everyone bringing Grav is the one thing Orks can capitalise on.

Immobilized results are disproportionately crippling to most Ork vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 IllumiNini wrote:

Hunam0001 wrote:
Orks aren't the problem. They do fine against: CSM, Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, AM, SOB, even marines if they don't have grav, cents, and aren't white scars, and non-decurion Necrons.

It's worth noting that Chaos Space Marines are in dire need of a codex update themselves, and Sisters of Battle even more so.

It's also worth noting that while the "Restrictions" you've imposed on Space Marines isn't crippling, it shows that there's elements which are lacking in the Ork Codex rather than anything else. The same goes for the Necrons.

TLDR? Orks (among others) need to be buffed first before they can be properly compared to other races.


As a side note: Every codex has the capability to produce a very powerful list. One of the main differences is that the weaker/more unbalanced the codex is, the harder it is to make such a list and the more limited the options are.

Yeah, the point I'm trying to make is that the list of things that Orks are "competitive" against, is much longer that the list of things they really struggle with.

I'm of the opinion that it's much less a question of buffiing Orks, and much more a question of balancing White Scar Centurions, Grav, Eldar, and Decurion.

To narrow it down to a few larger issues;
-Highly susceptible to Ld issues, morale, fear, pinning
-Lack of quality psychic abilities
-Lack of rending or fleshbane weapons
-Missing 'ere we go on walkers
-Lack of invul saves for ICs
-edition dakka clashes with race's innate assault based nature
-Some units are needlessly overcosted, Nobz, Flashgitz, Kanz, Kommandos, Dorkonaughts.
-Relic limitations

Yeah, the point I'm trying to make is that the list of things that Orks are "competitive" against, is much longer that the list of things they really struggle with.

I'm of the opinion that it's much less a question of buffiing Orks, and much more a question of balancing White Scar Centurions, Grav, Eldar, and Decurion.

Well realistically Orks aren't competitive against, Eldar, White Scars, Space Wolves, Vanilla Marines, Necrons, Tau and SoB.

Orks are competitive against Tyranids, DE, IG and CSM.

In all fairness SoB kind of beat stick orks because they love Flamers and Melta, so they kill our hordes and fry our elites

Orks really got hit hard by having a toned down codex, then everything that followed got beefed up.

Well see, they are green and loud. You would think being green would be good for the environment, but these guys cause more pollution than a coal factory burning at its fullest. And if they can ruin the environment with pollution, they can ruin the atmosphere with their noise. Have fun with your bursted ear drums after you've sat a few miles to close to an ork camp.

SemperMortis wrote:

Yeah, the point I'm trying to make is that the list of things that Orks are "competitive" against, is much longer that the list of things they really struggle with.

I'm of the opinion that it's much less a question of buffiing Orks, and much more a question of balancing White Scar Centurions, Grav, Eldar, and Decurion.

Well realistically Orks aren't competitive against, Eldar, White Scars, Space Wolves, Vanilla Marines, Necrons, Tau and SoB.

Orks are competitive against Tyranids, DE, IG and CSM.

In all fairness SoB kind of beat stick orks because they love Flamers and Melta, so they kill our hordes and fry our elites

You forgot Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Adeptus Mechanicus, Inquisition, and Harliquins.

As well, Orks can be very competitive against Necrons. Just not against Decurion Necrons.

Same goes for Vanilla Space Marines, White Scars, and Space Wolves.
It's more to do with Grav, Centurions, and Thunder Calv.

As for Tau, it's arguably Riptides and Stromsurges, but that Codex needs a re-do.

I'll concede Eldar.

 Moolet wrote:
I think 2 things are to blame: 1st) is the power creep. Other factions can do more for less points and still have greater resiliency. 2nd) a lot of people play them as you would marine or any other elite combined arms army. With orks, resiliency comes from numbers and from numbers comes redundancy. Never use 1 unit to do anything, use at least 2. Your opponent will eb able to shoot something, try and offer them the targets you'd prefer to get shot at.

Its not a winning formula against tough lists but for fun 1850pt play take 2 ork horde detachments or CADs, throw down 4x30 boyz with 4 painboyz for 1080pts for 120 FnP boyz. (if you want more points for play just do 3 x 30). get a da finkin kap and roll for 2 traits on strategic and hope for, infiltrate 3 units (6" free move towards the enemy at the cost of not charging turn 1), night fighting, and the city fighter one. IMO, its how orks should be played, over half your points on cannon fodder. Let your opponent have fun shooting your horde to bits but make sure you have enough other stuff to cripple them.

Exactly this ! I want to start a xenos army alongside my Marines and was considering Orks or Nids for hording it up. And the Orks just seem too damn fun with these amazing numbers.

120 Boys with 60 Lootas in 2 CAD will wreck much face. Might not be able to deal with AV14, but it'll deal with anything else without trouble through jsut weight of numbers

Hunam0001 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Yeah, the point I'm trying to make is that the list of things that Orks are "competitive" against, is much longer that the list of things they really struggle with.

I'm of the opinion that it's much less a question of buffiing Orks, and much more a question of balancing White Scar Centurions, Grav, Eldar, and Decurion.

Well realistically Orks aren't competitive against, Eldar, White Scars, Space Wolves, Vanilla Marines, Necrons, Tau and SoB.

Orks are competitive against Tyranids, DE, IG and CSM.

In all fairness SoB kind of beat stick orks because they love Flamers and Melta, so they kill our hordes and fry our elites

You forgot Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Adeptus Mechanicus, Inquisition, and Harliquins.

As well, Orks can be very competitive against Necrons. Just not against Decurion Necrons.

Same goes for Vanilla Space Marines, White Scars, and Space Wolves.
It's more to do with Grav, Centurions, and Thunder Calv.

As for Tau, it's arguably Riptides and Stromsurges, but that Codex needs a re-do.

I'll concede Eldar.

Orks beat BA if the Ork general knows what he's doing. BA don't have the firepower to whittle down the Orks like Eldar or Tau do, and our assault units are now jokes.

Hunam0001 wrote:

You forgot Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Adeptus Mechanicus, Inquisition, and Harliquins.

As well, Orks can be very competitive against Necrons. Just not against Decurion Necrons.

Same goes for Vanilla Space Marines, White Scars, and Space Wolves.
It's more to do with Grav, Centurions, and Thunder Calv.

As for Tau, it's arguably Riptides and Stromsurges, but that Codex needs a re-do.

I'll concede Eldar.

Kind of, let me fix that for you in that sense then

Orks can not compete against any sort of competitive list from Eldar, Space Marines, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, White Scars, Necrons, Tau and SoB.
Orks CAN compete against competitive(ish) Tyranid, DE, IG and CSM.
Orks Can usually beat up Blood Angels for the reasons that martel stated.
Adeptus Mechanicus I honestly haven't seen much of so I can't comment on how good they are against orks, As for Inquisition and Harlequins? both are supplement codices for the Imperium and Eldar Respectively (you can tell me all you want they are an independent army but they aren't. They are meant to act as allies for those 2 factions)

Orks are not competitive against Necrons, not just because Decurion but Necrons in general. Trust me, I have had a mob of boyz get stuck in combat with a unit of Warriors for 3 turns and then lose to them.
When a SM player brings grav I am usually pretty happy because my T-shirts don't give a flying feth about Grav. So I am never worried about grav.
As For Tau? No it isn't just the stupid OP ridiculous Riptide/Stormsurge/GhostKeel it is about 2/3rds of the codex that kills orks. Missile Sides eat through my bikes and boyz like they aren't there. Even Firewarriors kill Boyz faster then they can close the gap. And then you have all the fething jump/jet pack infantry that can outgun me, are faster then me, have better armor then me, and better leadership. After all of that then you get to add in the Iconic Riptide that every single Tau player in existence owns, at least one of.



Anyway back on topic as far as what is wrong with the orks. From what I gather people seem to think that Orks are either to squishy or conversely that Orks are perfectly fine it is just the rest of the game that needs to be toned down so that Orks aren't getting tabled every other game.

Well, in the history of GW they have never done an edition wide toning down, they do nerf codex's into the ground, but usually only if they are Xenos or BA, but they never do it to more then 1-3 codex's a edition. So those of you who are hoping Eldar/Necrons/SM/Tau get bumped back down to normal levels? well don't hold your breath. SO with that in mind I think the problem then becomes how squishy orks are and simple ways to make them tougher and more able to get into close combat, because GW will never give orks good weapons to shoot (The KMK was a mistake Im sure of it)

Army Wide 5+ or 6+ FNP would help a bit, the 5+ would really help but I have a feeling to many would complain because they wouldn't be able to steam roll orks anymore.
Conversely changing orks armor saves to 6++ instead of 6+ would make them a bit more durable.
Lastly, redoing the Ramshackle and Mob rules to make them a buff instead of a nerf would probably really help out in terms of getting boyz into CC.

RAMSHACKLE: Against Penetrating hits: On a 3+ the vehicle loses 1 HP and 1 passenger inside gets liquefied, ignore the vehicle damage chart.
Against Glancing hits: On a 4+ the vehicle ignores the glance, as it only blew off a chunk of armor that was bolted to the frame.

Mob Rule: If the mob has 10+ Models the unit is fearless
If the mob has 10 or less modes it uses the highest leadership of a model in the unit but is allowed to re-roll all leadership tests. (Nobs become Ld8 because reasons)

 Purifier wrote:

Hunam0001 wrote:
even marines if they don't have grav

Why would anyone pick grav against orks?

Grav will now hurt orks badly as meganobz is the only way you can deal with IK outside the HQ slot now.

SemperMortis wrote:

Orks are not competitive against Necrons, not just because Decurion but Necrons in general. Trust me, I have had a mob of boyz get stuck in combat with a unit of Warriors for 3 turns and then lose to them.
When a SM player brings grav I am usually pretty happy because my T-shirts don't give a flying feth about Grav. So I am never worried about grav.
As For Tau? No it isn't just the stupid OP ridiculous Riptide/Stormsurge/GhostKeel it is about 2/3rds of the codex that kills orks. Missile Sides eat through my bikes and boyz like they aren't there. Even Firewarriors kill Boyz faster then they can close the gap. And then you have all the fething jump/jet pack infantry that can outgun me, are faster then me, have better armor then me, and better leadership. After all of that then you get to add in the Iconic Riptide that every single Tau player in existence owns, at least one of.

I've also played against non-Decurion Necrons a bunch, and after learning a few tricks in the first few games, I've never had much a of a problem with them.

Did you have a nob with a PK in that boys squad? Personally, I throw Meganobz at things like warriors, boys are used to drown Wraiths.

As for Tau, I have 2000 points of Tau, and not a single Riptide.
I don't wanna get too bogged down with how infuriating the 6th ed codex for them was, but I do agree that everything in it is terrible balanced, and just... the worst... not even from the point of view of other players, but IT'S BAD FOR TAU PLAYERS. There's upgrades for the Hammerhead that make literally no sense. Broadsides lost their identity with the changes to HRR, and HYMP. What should have been the most flexible/coolest unit in the book (Pathfinders) was mishandled into mono builds.

Anyhow, yeah, you're right about Tau.

Anyhow, back on topic. I guess playing Kult of Speed skews a lot of my views on this. I'm super afraid of Grav as an immobilised vehicle is basically useless.

I think the issue that a lot of Ork players have is that this codex is that you can't just run up the middle of the field with a ton of boyz. Which, in all fairness, is exactly what they're described as doing in the fluff (the same fluff mind you, where they constantly get defeated).

I mean, sure our dedicated assault units can't take on other dedicated assault units, but they do a great job of killing non assault units. Which compliments the way boys units are pretty good at tying down dedicated assault units.

I think that's the strength of the Ork codex right now. Bully units, and distracting chaff.

Nearly every ork player I've faced takes some dang special sauce specialty army that worked in 3/4/5 editions....

MSU is very on the up and up, and combine that with grav spam and librarian conclaves all over the damn place.....

Why aren't ork players flooding the board?

Even in competitive, you are slowing the game down and bringing more scoring units then any army can reasonable deal with in the current Meta.

Flood the board! It works great!

 sfshilo wrote:
Nearly every ork player I've faced takes some dang special sauce specialty army that worked in 3/4/5 editions....

MSU is very on the up and up, and combine that with grav spam and librarian conclaves all over the damn place.....

Why aren't ork players flooding the board?

Even in competitive, you are slowing the game down and bringing more scoring units then any army can reasonable deal with in the current Meta.

Flood the board! It works great!

I'm glad we disagree about this.

I've been having success with fast moving MSU. The fact that you've been doing great with board control (hopefully) means we're not a mono-build codex.

Hunam0001 wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
Nearly every ork player I've faced takes some dang special sauce specialty army that worked in 3/4/5 editions....

MSU is very on the up and up, and combine that with grav spam and librarian conclaves all over the damn place.....

Why aren't ork players flooding the board?

Even in competitive, you are slowing the game down and bringing more scoring units then any army can reasonable deal with in the current Meta.

Flood the board! It works great!

I'm glad we disagree about this.

I've been having success with fast moving MSU. The fact that you've been doing great with board control (hopefully) means we're not a mono-build codex.

actually, as it stands right now, Orks are in fact a mono-build army. Your probably playing Zhadsnark's boyz, where you can use bikes as troops. That is literally the only Ork Army that placed in the top 100 at the LVO this year. Basically if you run anything besides that your screwed. Green tide used to be a thing for a bit, it was very gimmicky and easily defeated if your opponent wasn't stupid but teamed with a VSG and a painboy it was fairly resilient. But Orks can't have nice things so GW killed that formation entirely in the latest craptastic supplement they released for Orks. On top of that, if you play that army against any army that has access to a heavy flamer? Stand by, because there goes your Deathstar unit.

If I had to point out one that is wrong with orks, it's mob rule. It's a terrible rule that forces us to kill our own units en masse, even valuable ones like lootas or tankbustas, to pass any morale test.

Moreover, we are a melee centered army with no protection from fear whatsoever, and majority LD7. And fear is a pretty damned common special rule, it just doesn't affect anyone that much other than orks.

Do you have any idea how embarrassing it is to charge a unit of khorne dogs or a riptide with a warboss and nobz and to be afraid of them?

If mob rule didn't suck, or wasn't as punishing as it is (I've lost more models to mob rule than to the opposing enemy in melee, a time or two), offered protection from fear, orks would function better.

That being said, lack of invluns and saves in general also hurt, bad.

Thoughts on easy fixes:

All orks get 6+ FNP base. painboyz add +2 to FNP rolls.

Painboyz work exactly like (little) meks do now. Having to waste a HQ slot on a model that provides FNP and basically nothing else is annoying.

Mob rule counts wounds, not models. This makes Mob rule actually useful for things like nobz, deffkoptas, etc.

Substitute # of remaining wounds for your LD value. If over 10, fearless.

Or, keep mob rule the way it is now, but count wounds instead of models. Breakin' eads causes D3 wounds at the characters base strength, squabble causes D6 at the majority base strength (generally, 3). How do S3 boyz hit each other for S4? Mob rule also counts for fear tests.

If more than one group of your orks is involved in a close combat, you count all wounds involved in the close combat. That way, smaller trukk boy squads can bolster each other's mob rule results.

If they fixed mob rule and actually made orks tough and resistant to fear (like in the fluff), they could be fixed pretty damn quick.

SemperMortis wrote:

Hunam0001 wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
Nearly every ork player I've faced takes some dang special sauce specialty army that worked in 3/4/5 editions....

MSU is very on the up and up, and combine that with grav spam and librarian conclaves all over the damn place.....

Why aren't ork players flooding the board?

Even in competitive, you are slowing the game down and bringing more scoring units then any army can reasonable deal with in the current Meta.

Flood the board! It works great!

I'm glad we disagree about this.

I've been having success with fast moving MSU. The fact that you've been doing great with board control (hopefully) means we're not a mono-build codex.

actually, as it stands right now, Orks are in fact a mono-build army. Your probably playing Zhadsnark's boyz, where you can use bikes as troops. That is literally the only Ork Army that placed in the top 100 at the LVO this year. Basically if you run anything besides that your screwed. Green tide used to be a thing for a bit, it was very gimmicky and easily defeated if your opponent wasn't stupid but teamed with a VSG and a painboy it was fairly resilient. But Orks can't have nice things so GW killed that formation entirely in the latest craptastic supplement they released for Orks. On top of that, if you play that army against any army that has access to a heavy flamer? Stand by, because there goes your Deathstar unit.

No Zhad. I do have a unit with bikes with a Warboss and a Big Mek with KFF (specifically because of baleflamers). After that, it's Trukk boys and Manz Missiles mostly.

Also of note, I've been running my Warboss with Headwoppa's Kill Choppa, and an attack squig, and go fishing for 6s to wound. Catches quite a few opponents off guard.

Anyhow, back on topic, I think the big thing that Orks are missing most games is LOS blocking terrain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
If I had to point out one that is wrong with orks, it's mob rule. It's a terrible rule that forces us to kill our own units en masse, even valuable ones like lootas or tankbustas, to pass any morale test.

Moreover, we are a melee centered army with no protection from fear whatsoever, and majority LD7. And fear is a pretty damned common special rule, it just doesn't affect anyone that much other than orks.

Do you have any idea how embarrassing it is to charge a unit of khorne dogs or a riptide with a warboss and nobz and to be afraid of them?

If mob rule didn't suck, or wasn't as punishing as it is (I've lost more models to mob rule than to the opposing enemy in melee, a time or two), offered protection from fear, orks would function better.

That being said, lack of invluns and saves in general also hurt, bad.

Thoughts on easy fixes:

All orks get 6+ FNP base. painboyz add +2 to FNP rolls.

Painboyz work exactly like (little) meks do now. Having to waste a HQ slot on a model that provides FNP and basically nothing else is annoying.

Mob rule counts wounds, not models. This makes Mob rule actually useful for things like nobz, deffkoptas, etc.

Substitute # of remaining wounds for your LD value. If over 10, fearless.

Or, keep mob rule the way it is now, but count wounds instead of models. Breakin' eads causes D3 wounds at the characters base strength, squabble causes D6 at the majority base strength (generally, 3). How do S3 boyz hit each other for S4? Mob rule also counts for fear tests.

If more than one group of your orks is involved in a close combat, you count all wounds involved in the close combat. That way, smaller trukk boy squads can bolster each other's mob rule results.

If they fixed mob rule and actually made orks tough and resistant to fear (like in the fluff), they could be fixed pretty damn quick.

Yeah, if mob rule could be taken against fear test that'd be great.

The worst was charging a unit of Manz into a Crimson Slaughter Land raider... and being forced to hit on 4s.

As for mob rule itself, I don't find it that damaging, but I tend to run boys in 'Eavy armor.

Anyhow, back on topic, I think the big thing that Orks are missing most games is LOS blocking terrain.

This more then anything else bugs me the most. This is the most useless comment that is capable of being made in regards to what Orks lack or need.

Every army in the game uses Terrain and LoS blocking terrain, even shooty armies like Tau use LoS blocking terrain. Stating Orks need LoS blocking terrain is just silly.

Sorry I went off on a rant. Anyway, in your meta this might be the case, but in the competitive gaming environment Orks have 1 build that can work, thats Zhad and his biker boyz. everything else failed at LVO ant hose are arguably some of the best players in the game.

SemperMortis wrote:

Anyhow, back on topic, I think the big thing that Orks are missing most games is LOS blocking terrain.

This more then anything else bugs me the most. This is the most useless comment that is capable of being made in regards to what Orks lack or need.

Every army in the game uses Terrain and LoS blocking terrain, even shooty armies like Tau use LoS blocking terrain. Stating Orks need LoS blocking terrain is just silly.

Sorry I went off on a rant. Anyway, in your meta this might be the case, but in the competitive gaming environment Orks have 1 build that can work, thats Zhad and his biker boyz. everything else failed at LVO ant hose are arguably some of the best players in the game.

True, but I find a lot of people who complain about Orks tend to be playing on planet bowling ball, and running foot slogging hordes directly at the foe.

Anyhow, in my meta, Kult of Speed Orks are doing pretty well (even without Zhad). It'd be nice to see some more walker armies, but that seems to be an issue with walkers in general more than anything else.

What do you feel they lack in your meta?

Doesn't help that the allies matrix sucks for orks.
Tankbustas were one of the MVP units but they just got nerfed in the faq.
best units are in the heavy slot but maxing on lootas and mek gunz only gets you so far.

Why does an army that supposed loves to fight spend so much time running away from fights?

Mob rule is crap. bring back the old mob rule. it worked and was fluffy as hell!

Biggest problem - leadership ans mob rule. If the boyz were fearless orks would do much better. And no invuln is just stupid why do orks get their only 5++ only agaibst shooting?

I would say because some units (Stormboyz, Kommandos, Flashgitz) only have a T-Shirt save (6+) which makes them undesirable to use

And also the lack of some stuff that is in the fluff (Tellyporta, i would make it a 30 point upgrade to a Big Mek that grants him and his unit Deep Strike, but has a -1 to Deep Strike Mishap (2 becomes a 1))

However the FW support for orks is quite good, some examples are Grot Tanks, Dread Mob List, Kustom Stompa, Mega/Meka Dreads and Buzzgob (300 Point Stompa!!)

Plus the Lack of giving your Custom HQs a Rokkit pack (Stormboy) or Sneekey Gear (Kommando)

A few things could really fix Orks without throwing the baby out with the bath water:

1) bring back the old mob rules.
2) bring back the save modifier for choppas, maybe just a simple -1 to armour save and AV.
3) make gorka/morkanaught a SH Walker.
4) give all Orks (not grots) FNP 6+, allow increases with cybork and painboys.
5) give trukks jink.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
5) give trukks jink.

I would actually say give it the thing Grot Tanks have, a 5+ Invun against anything that doesnt have the Ordnance


Automatically Appended Next Post:
However orks DID get a buff in the new FAQ, Ramshackle turns D hits into 1 Hullpoint

The lack of things above bs2. Although theres killa kans, grots, and plane gunners. Theres a lack in leadership in them.

 Commissar Terrence wrote:
The lack of things above bs2. Although theres killa kans, grots, and plane gunners. Theres a lack in leadership in them.

Nah, Orks have been BS 2 since 3rd, and it fits. They are meant to be an assault army, not a shooty army.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Commissar Terrence wrote:
The lack of things above bs2. Although theres killa kans, grots, and plane gunners. Theres a lack in leadership in them.

Nah, Orks have been BS 2 since 3rd, and it fits. They are meant to be an assault army, not a shooty army.

However i believe that Ork Vehicles should be able to buy "Grot Gunnerz" making shooting weapons BS3

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Commissar Terrence wrote:
The lack of things above bs2. Although theres killa kans, grots, and plane gunners. Theres a lack in leadership in them.

Nah, Orks have been BS 2 since 3rd, and it fits. They are meant to be an assault army, not a shooty army.

Except orks aren't an assault army. They are a bully army. Our best assault units can't stand up to average assault units from other factions. Realistically the best unit we have for assault is a mob of boyz. BS2 fits I get that, but why give Orks stuff like the 1 shot rokkit? 2/3rd chance to waste those 5pts.

However orks DID get a buff in the new FAQ, Ramshackle turns D hits into 1 Hullpoint

How is that a buff? nobody was wasting Strength D weapons on trukkz. and realistically the only army that can put out D weapons to the point where they might waste that shot is Eldar, and they have Scat Bikes, Fire Dragons, Reapers, and a host of other things that auto-deletes trukkz without having to waste those D shots.

And also the lack of some stuff that is in the fluff (Tellyporta, i would make it a 30 point upgrade to a Big Mek that grants him and his unit Deep Strike, but has a -1 to Deep Strike Mishap (2 becomes a 1))

This is a problem I have with a lot of peoples suggestions for orks. GW has this habit of fething orks over with random table rolls and giving them equipment that might be useful but sucks because they add negatives to it, and because of that a lot of people feel that when they make suggestions on buffs for the ork army they have to likewise add in a HUGE negative to whatever they are suggesting, otherwise its not Orky enough apparently. When your fething units Deep strike they have a 1 in 6 chance of something horrible happening. That is already terrible and I usually tell my opponent not to even roll on that table because it makes the game no fun after his unit is gone. So because Orks aren't competitive lets double that chance to 1/3 chance. AND make it a 30pt upgrade.

Do SM and other factions have to pay 30pts for a teleport ability? pretty sure they don't.

Orks are already one of the bottom tier armies, stop giving us "Buffs" That are really nerfs in disguise.

What is Wrong with Orks?

Games workshop thinks releases like THESE are acceptable. Just like the gork/morkanaut their crap game stats just cost them sales, and im sure not just from me.

SemperMortis wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Commissar Terrence wrote:
The lack of things above bs2. Although theres killa kans, grots, and plane gunners. Theres a lack in leadership in them.

Nah, Orks have been BS 2 since 3rd, and it fits. They are meant to be an assault army, not a shooty army.

Except orks aren't an assault army. They are a bully army. Our best assault units can't stand up to average assault units from other factions. Realistically the best unit we have for assault is a mob of boyz. BS2 fits I get that, but why give Orks stuff like the 1 shot rokkit? 2/3rd chance to waste those 5pts.

However orks DID get a buff in the new FAQ, Ramshackle turns D hits into 1 Hullpoint

How is that a buff? nobody was wasting Strength D weapons on trukkz. and realistically the only army that can put out D weapons to the point where they might waste that shot is Eldar, and they have Scat Bikes, Fire Dragons, Reapers, and a host of other things that auto-deletes trukkz without having to waste those D shots.

And also the lack of some stuff that is in the fluff (Tellyporta, i would make it a 30 point upgrade to a Big Mek that grants him and his unit Deep Strike, but has a -1 to Deep Strike Mishap (2 becomes a 1))

This is a problem I have with a lot of peoples suggestions for orks. GW has this habit of fething orks over with random table rolls and giving them equipment that might be useful but sucks because they add negatives to it, and because of that a lot of people feel that when they make suggestions on buffs for the ork army they have to likewise add in a HUGE negative to whatever they are suggesting, otherwise its not Orky enough apparently. When your fething units Deep strike they have a 1 in 6 chance of something horrible happening. That is already terrible and I usually tell my opponent not to even roll on that table because it makes the game no fun after his unit is gone. So because Orks aren't competitive lets double that chance to 1/3 chance. AND make it a 30pt upgrade.

Do SM and other factions have to pay 30pts for a teleport ability? pretty sure they don't.

Orks are already one of the bottom tier armies, stop giving us "Buffs" That are really nerfs in disguise.

I was gonna add "if a WAAAGH is called on the turn a unit Telleports, they may charge after deep striking"

I was gonna add "if a WAAAGH is called on the turn a unit Telleports, they may charge after deep striking"

Which is something most orks should already have the ability to do. It would make taking a couple of weirdboyz and hoping for the teleport power more likely.

The problem I have with your suggestion is that the only useful units orks have right now are basically Boyz and Tankbustas/Meganobz. If you throw in that Big Mek with that expensive teleport device your probably going to suffer a mishap, IE Landing on impassable terrain or off the board a bit. Imagine making a giant 30 boy blob into a big circle. Your going to take up a lot of the board with that giant circle. So when you do mishap, our unit is Dead 1/3rd of the time, useless 1/3rd of the time and delayed 1/3rd of the time.



I would love for orks to have more "Assault from" outflanking, scouting, infiltrating, deep strike and such but we currently don't have any units that do that. Just imagine how much more often you would see over priced Kommando units if they could assault from outflank, or from scout. Or that ridiculous formation with the Stormboyz that lets you deepstrike.

 sfshilo wrote:
Nearly every ork player I've faced takes some dang special sauce specialty army that worked in 3/4/5 editions....

MSU is very on the up and up, and combine that with grav spam and librarian conclaves all over the damn place.....

Why aren't ork players flooding the board?

Even in competitive, you are slowing the game down and bringing more scoring units then any army can reasonable deal with in the current Meta.

Flood the board! It works great!

215 points for 29 boyz with a boss nob, 335 if they have heavy armor for the 4+

I have run them either way, most armies just kill them by the droves and at least in my meta everybody brings pie plates.

I have run 180 boyz (really 174 with 6 pk nobz) many times and they usually just take a long time to move and get removed in buckets as your opponent zips around in vehicles out of range picking off the close models so you never get an assault (losses off the back in 5th made this a non issue, if you don't bunch to avoid this templates kill you, if you spread out you never get in the assault so... yea

really changing their save to a 5 or 6+ fnp and no armor save would help though. the issue is they almost never even get to try that 6 tshirt save except in cc. eavy armor boyz then become worth it more 4+ then 5 or 6 fnp

Here are some fluffy and simple fixes that would make Orks viable without slowing the game down or increasing model count.

1) Mob Rule: If you fail a leadership kill D3 boyz than treat as having passed. That would work on Fear and regroup tests as well.
2) Ramshackle. Downgrade Pens to glances on a 2+
3) Speed: Units with Ere We Go can run and charge every turn (not just the WAAAGH)
4) Survivability: 20+ Orks in a unit = T6 vs shooting and explosions. 10-19 Orks in a unit = T5 vs shooting .
5) Waaagh!: On the turn Orks declare their Waaagh they gain fearless, fleet, and rending.
6) Gorkanaught and Morkanaut = Super Heavy Vehicles.
7) Walkers gain Ere We Go.
8) Bosspole: Can send a boy in your place to meet a challenge.

I think that the ork flyer is far from bad, honestly. It's fast, decent ranged AP2 shooting for a price that is consistent with the other (ork) flyers.

Even has an included 5++ save from one hit per turn, and a half price upgrade for a KFF.

Hell, the blitza bommer is more and has to physically fly over a target to get an AP2 blast without jinking, and only gets to do that twice. Large blast, admittedly.

It's not amazing, but hell, a fast tellyport blasta isn't awful.

And with most flying vehicles losing skyfire, means fewer things can hit it.

I'm not going to say it's amazing, but A) welcome to orks, and B) welcome to ork flyers.

Any rate, it's a fun model, and I intend to enjoy it.

SemperMortis wrote:
This is a problem I have with a lot of peoples suggestions for orks. GW has this habit of fething orks over with random table rolls and giving them equipment that might be useful but sucks because they add negatives to it, and because of that a lot of people feel that when they make suggestions on buffs for the ork army they have to likewise add in a HUGE negative to whatever they are suggesting, otherwise its not Orky enough apparently.

absolutly this. like many ork players i found myself discussing ork buffs with friends... and every frikking time i catch myself undermining great ideas with pointless ways to kill of my own army...
but somehow it IS orky and IF the pay off is good enough it would be fine.

anyway... i think there are two main problem with the current ork dex.

1) limited CAD and no Decurion style formations
first off the ghazkull formation is ridiculous and useless in normal sized games. 900+ points for a core choice is insane.
but what really hinders the current ork dex is the lack of options to min manx our lists. we can generally take only one CAD and this limits what options we can take. the best defence against super units like centurions or other op crap is offensive MSU play. i would glady take 5 man tankbusta squads in a trukk for measly 100points per mob but i cant. i would love to take multiple biker mobs to threaten high value targets across the table but i cant. because i also NEED outflanking skorcha buggys, dakkajets and koptaz. same goes for the heavily crowded support section. taking many small mobs would also mitigate the leadership problems orks have... you just shot 5 lootaz and they ran of the board? well i dont care, because i ljust lost about 65 points and have 5 more loota mobs waiting...
also this would open up possibilitys of themed ork armys like goffs or speed freaks which would get minor bonuses depending on their playstyle (like good old trukkboyz which would only get hurt by their exploding trukk on 6+)
also let every aproppiate mob take meks or painboyz (and give painboyz a freaking boy profile or call him painboss for gork/mork's sake) that would clear up the much crowded HQ slot a bit. also while we're at it... make 3 HQ slots the norm or give the horde cad objective secured.


2) morale and durability in general
this is i think we all agree the big one. ld 7 and no save is a gamebreaker. first off the save.
generally i like the idea of orks having no invul save, its kinda fluffy and lets us stand out compared to other armies. but the downside has to be mitigated somehow. in this sense just give every ork an armywide 6+ FNP, the 6+ tshirt save can stay. why? because it doesnt matter for shooting anyway... and where does it matter?`in CC. it would buff the general survivalbility of orks and give em a bit more punch in CC, while not making em op in any sense. painboys and cyborks should buff this save by 1. so that some hq characters would get a 4+ fnp IF an painboy is around and he brought a cybork with him. doesnt sound too op to me. next would be morale. my favorite fix would be orks always can substitue their number of orks (or better wounds) for their LD value up to a maximum of 10. no substractions, no modifiers whatsoever. you got 8 orks left after losing a CC? you need to roll 8 or less. this is simple fast and effective. on a whaagh everyone is fearless for one turn.
an alternative would be a streamlined and improved version of the mob rule. roll a D3 if its a 1 the test is failed (unless in CC), 2 is passed but you take d3 wounds (with saves allowed AND ork player chooses casulites, no endless and pointless efforts to find a d20 and roll it 5 times to determine which git bites the dust), 3 is passed no malicious things happen. further wounds cause no further testing. done. its easy, fast and effective.


...of course there is also the problem of slightly overprized units. yes there are some really ridiculous pointed units like naughts, killa kans and stompas. but for the most part a small point reduction would do the trick.
like make nobs tax-free and give em a bosspole as gear, scimp off 5 points for trukks or give all ork vehicles rams for free (we all take em anyway) stuff like that should do the trick.

EDIT:

oh and for feth sake... make the red paint job give you +1 inch to your regular movement again. -.-

The ork codex just sucks almost every unit got worse. Tank hunters are one of the few good choices

Overcosted of most units. Most of units should cost the half or 1/3 less than actual. Is funny how overcosted is but GW sell us the army as an horde full of cheap stuff....and usually you can see near the same amoun of marines than orks on games.

Lack of supervivence (think that if GW doesnt raise general armor on the army, every single ork should have a 5+ feel no pain)

All vehicles are stupidy weak and easy to blow up.

Special mention to our dreads/kans...pfff

No MC, something funny because the kind of army...even more if you realiced even Imperium have MC

No psiquic powers (the ones of the books are so terrible i dont think on them) and no acces to any powers from the book but daemonology.

Weaponry
- no melta
- no lass canon (the smasha gun is a joke)
- no cheap or decent option to decent large blast
- no weapons with special cool effects (no gravs, no strange Admecg weapons, no tessla or gauss, no shurikens....)
- no classic plasma. And plasma canons are just as heavy support or stupid bad units like morkanaut
- Huge lack of anti large vehicles weapons. A land raider becomes near inmmune to our range weapons.

Actually, even if not good shooting, ork are not so good at melee: S3, no armor, no invulnerable saves on IC, poor iniciative (with not resistente to could answer the attack), por amount of weapons choices for characters....

No personalization on the units, with none or near none weapon choices

Again, overcosted army xD



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ah, and the new flyer is gak. The morkanaunt of the skies xD


And after saw the rules and weapns of the new marine ship...I am sure GW hates orks' players, because it owned the ork plane in every single aspect...and is cheaper than the ork....cool

Spot on except ork plasma is one point stronger then classic plasma capable of glancing AV14 and IDs T4. But there's ork bs2 to deal with.

hahaha, not only the bs2, you only can buy that plasma canons on very few units, being the mek gun the only decent xD

Franarok wrote:
hahaha, not only the bs2, you only can buy that plasma canons on very few units, being the mek gun the only decent xD

As of right this moment the only way you can bring the KMK (Kustom Mega Kannon) is with Mek Gunz (BEST OPTION), Morkanaut (terrible option almost 300pts) or the new fething stupid ork flyer which I will nickname fethstick. Which costs around 180pts upgraded, and ohh did I Mention its an AV10 flyer that can't jink because if it does it loses the ability to fire its fething weapon?

Looted wagons with killkannons are cheap pie plates. Yea its 24 inches but its CHEAP. like 65 points base.

Yea seriously though, they want me to buy 3-5 mek guns when they're 60 dollars each? what a joke.

I mean, GW can't have their entire staff with their head in the sand right? Someone has to be aware that the entire internet has a problem with the balance of the ork/csm/nid/ig codexes compared to the other ones. I like to think that someone is going to help us someday.

commander dante wrote:

However the FW support for orks is quite good, some examples are Grot Tanks, Dread Mob List, Kustom Stompa, Mega/Meka Dreads and Buzzgob (300 Point Stompa!!)

Mwhaaa ha ha I'm sorry. Their FW support is abysmal really. Ia8 is no longer supported by them. Sure we use it, but supported na not at all, and that 400pt stopa isn't FW that's just a desperate houserule in order to buff orks a bit.

 oldzoggy wrote:

commander dante wrote:

However the FW support for orks is quite good, some examples are Grot Tanks, Dread Mob List, Kustom Stompa, Mega/Meka Dreads and Buzzgob (300 Point Stompa!!)

Mwhaaa ha ha I'm sorry. Their FW support is abysmal really. Ia8 is no longer supported by them. Sure we use it, but supported na not at all, and that 400pt stopa isn't FW that's just a desperate houserule in order to buff orks a bit.

Beyond the mek stompa, what good stuff comes from FW for orks? That is an honest question because I don't use forgeworld and the only things I can think of are the stompas and that stupid walker that isn't worth its points.

You can make a pretty good shooty Kustom Stompa from the Imperial Armour book and the Gunwagons look good as a Battlewagon/Trukk alternative. Grot Tanks are better than Kans since our 7th codex and Zhadsnark da Rippa is a great warbike-Warboss. Other than that the FW stuff doesn't seem amazing to me.

xlDuke wrote:
You can make a pretty good shooty Kustom Stompa from the Imperial Armour book and the Gunwagons look good as a Battlewagon/Trukk alternative. Grot Tanks are better than Kans since our 7th codex and Zhadsnark da Rippa is a great warbike-Warboss. Other than that the FW stuff doesn't seem amazing to me.

So FW has A cheaper Stompa (not game breaking since the current stompa is 200-300pts over priced), Gunwagonz which are ok as alternative, cheaper then BW and tougher then Trukkz, Grot Tanks which are basically Killa Kanz with horrible movement for a tracked vehicle (roll 2D6 to get how far you can move, garbage) but the upside is that they are 30pts a model and for 10pts more can pack a grotzooka, one of the better weapons in the ork codex. Then you have Zhadsnark who is good, but only because Ork Bikers are one of the better units in our otherwise unusable codex.


I forgot about a number of these. And I also looked over the FW weapons/units and upgrades and even that made me cringe :(

SemperMortis wrote:

xlDuke wrote:
You can make a pretty good shooty Kustom Stompa from the Imperial Armour book and the Gunwagons look good as a Battlewagon/Trukk alternative. Grot Tanks are better than Kans since our 7th codex and Zhadsnark da Rippa is a great warbike-Warboss. Other than that the FW stuff doesn't seem amazing to me.

So FW has A cheaper Stompa (not game breaking since the current stompa is 200-300pts over priced), Gunwagonz which are ok as alternative, cheaper then BW and tougher then Trukkz, Grot Tanks which are basically Killa Kanz with horrible movement for a tracked vehicle (roll 2D6 to get how far you can move, garbage) but the upside is that they are 30pts a model and for 10pts more can pack a grotzooka, one of the better weapons in the ork codex. Then you have Zhadsnark who is good, but only because Ork Bikers are one of the better units in our otherwise unusable codex.


I forgot about a number of these. And I also looked over the FW weapons/units and upgrades and even that made me cringe :(

Yeah those units are the ones that standout as good to me, the Battle Fortresses (a few different varieties of Super Heavy Transports) could be decent as well. It's a really old book and the game was very different back then from what I hear. If it ever gets updated we made might be in for a bit of luck with improved units and altered costs. That's a big "if" though, it was removed from Forgeworld's website last December (if memory serves) and I haven't seen anything about an update since then. As it stands a lot of the rules are too old and too clunky in 7th edition for my liking so I steer clear of most the IA units.

I just want to throw my 2 cents in about more cover on the table being beneficial. I have found with my daemons, orks, and Tyranids, that more terrain can be a double edged sword.

Difficult terrain slows your army down, causes you to bottle neck your forces, and form queues, especially if going horde. Though it can provide cover and block LOS, wrecked vehicles in the wrong place or trapped units can also make it a nightmare. It's also a good way for small units to dominate horde armies piecemeal with counter assaults.

Not that I'm a master ork tactician or anything. I just love horde armies

 Norn Queen Yurei wrote:
I just want to throw my 2 cents in about more cover on the table being beneficial. I have found with my daemons, orks, and Tyranids, that more terrain can be a double edged sword.

Difficult terrain slows your army down, causes you to bottle neck your forces, and form queues, especially if going horde. Though it can provide cover and block LOS, wrecked vehicles in the wrong place or trapped units can also make it a nightmare. It's also a good way for small units to dominate horde armies piecemeal with counter assaults.

Not that I'm a master ork tactician or anything. I just love horde armies

That, exactly that. Everyone keeps touting MORE TERRAIN but they fail to realize that the enemy benefits from it just as much as the ork player does. And in some situations even more so, Eldar/Tau can jump out, shoot you and then jump back behind cover, so that they only possible way to kill them is to assault them, which will be costly because his unit keeps depleting your unit while you can only run forward and take it.

IA8 is amazing. It is everyting an ork player would like to use. But its all written for 5th edition. FW has currently 0 ork models written for the 7th edition rules / new ork codex.

 Brother SRM wrote:
They're not terribly survivable, and everything gets to hit before them in close combat, even Guardsmen.

This. If you look at an ork, there is no way he is ST3 and I2. A REAL Ork would be ST5 and I6 or so (Yes, I know, 40k isn't "real") but st3/I2? Just, um, no.

Is a Burna boy (6+ save, st3) really worth 16 points? really? Is a killa kan really worth 25? Nob 18? too much of our codex is just like that, and anytime we get something good (Green Tide, Melta Bombs) GW in their infinite wisdom deletes it.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Brother SRM wrote:
They're not terribly survivable, and everything gets to hit before them in close combat, even Guardsmen.

This. If you look at an ork, there is no way he is ST3 and I2. A REAL Ork would be ST5 and I6 or so (Yes, I know, 40k isn't "real") but st3/I2? Just, um, no.

Is a Burna boy (6+ save, st3) really worth 16 points? really? Is a killa kan really worth 25? Nob 18? too much of our codex is just like that, and anytime we get something good (Green Tide, Melta Bombs) GW in their infinite wisdom deletes it.

I'm reminded of a discussion I had with a guy on this forum where he was explaining that orks are supposed to be as durable as wet paper because books and the Space Marine video game had space marines chopping orks up with no resistance.

I mean, we're clearly the NPC badguy race so why should we be anything but cannon fodder?

hahaha, true

Green tide? the orks players actually use a formation? no no no, it cant be, delete it

Oh, they use tankbustas and actually they kill tanks with them? no no no, the orks cant kill high armored tanks, will faq it.

Invulnerable saves on IC? no no no, we already gave them poor armor and iniciative to make them die agains marines before attack....we cant allow something like a invulnerable saves an ork.

Oh, orks loves lootas.....will more them to heavy support , that way can use elite slots on BURNAS! xD

Orks used kans instead dreads? mini-dreads of WS 2 and BS 3 with F11? to much op, will raise the cost 20 points, reduce the S of the melee atacks by 3 and add some kind of coward rule.

Oh, we love the idea of create a new marine flyer....but we should do something to orks to avoid hate.....but the ork must be more expensive, have less number of weapons and the orkweapon choices wil lbe mostly garbage. Ah, also the marine will be F12 and the ork just F10

Will create new psi powers for marines, they only had all the big book ones in addittion some special ones...clearly very few. for ork we gave one psi table that is garbage, muahahhaa

And orks having something "similar" to "and they shall no rules"?? no no no, will create a new garbage mob rule




Ok ok ok, i know comparison between armies is odd...but hell, I love the army and I feel really dow because how GW treat orks players

You are forgetting the lifta wagon, the big suiggoth, and the codex biker list ; )


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A you got a tank that can destroy vehiclces with ease. Lets make is so that it never hit again.

You got cheap monsterous transport. Lets raise the points to just under landraider lv.

So you like to build biker lists do you lets remove all characters who make you do this .

By mork if we just had 50 pts big squiggoths again that would help so much.

Someone was talking about a "tellyporta" which is mentioned in background texts - where have you read about this and is it a well known thing amongst ork fans?

Chaospling wrote:
Someone was talking about a "tellyporta" which is mentioned in background texts - where have you read about this and is it a well known thing amongst ork fans?

Nazdreg + PIscina IV? His prototype before the 3rd Amageddon War?

 oldzoggy wrote:
You are forgetting the lifta wagon, the big suiggoth, and the codex biker list ; )


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A you got a tank that can destroy vehiclces with ease. Lets make is so that it never hit again.

You got cheap monsterous transport. Lets raise the points to just under landraider lv.

So you like to build biker lists do you lets remove all characters who make you do this .

By mork if we just had 50 pts big squiggoths again that would help so much.

Anything that was orky and fun was removed. (E.G. Ramshackle)

Anything that was competitive was removed. (Deff Rolla, Wazdakka, Cybork)

What is left is a shell of a codex designed for players to have all of the fun of playing the NPC that is always doomed to lose.

SemperMortis wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
You are forgetting the lifta wagon, the big suiggoth, and the codex biker list ; )


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A you got a tank that can destroy vehiclces with ease. Lets make is so that it never hit again.

You got cheap monsterous transport. Lets raise the points to just under landraider lv.

So you like to build biker lists do you lets remove all characters who make you do this .

By mork if we just had 50 pts big squiggoths again that would help so much.

Anything that was orky and fun was removed. (E.G. Ramshackle)

Anything that was competitive was removed. (Deff Rolla, Wazdakka, Cybork)

What is left is a shell of a codex designed for players to have all of the fun of playing the NPC that is always doomed to lose.

Wait, so if Martel is the one always complainig about BA, is Semper the one who will always complain about Orks? If so, we need to fill in someone for each faction!

 oldzoggy wrote:
By mork if we just had 50 pts big squiggoths again that would help so much.

All GW has to do is change 1 freaking little number and I will empty my wallet.

I for the life of me can't understand why they don't do this.

 jreilly89 wrote:


Wait, so if Martel is the one always complainig about BA, is Semper the one who will always complain about Orks? If so, we need to fill in someone for each faction!

You should start a whole new thread on this one. There's gona be a heck of a fierce competition for the №1 CSM Whiner.

Is Martel vs Semper the new Stormtroopers vs Redshirts?

 jreilly89 wrote:

Wait, so if Martel is the one always complainig about BA, is Semper the one who will always complain about Orks? If so, we need to fill in someone for each faction!

Said the Marine Player hiding behind his wall of 2+ rerollable cover saves and abundance of other great options. But please continue to explain how me pointing out the flaws in my army and wishing for better rules is whining. I remember a fair amount of DA players "whining" before this edition and their recent codex update.

 Don Savik wrote:
I mean, GW can't have their entire staff with their head in the sand right? Someone has to be aware that the entire internet has a problem with the balance of the ork/csm/nid/ig codexes compared to the other ones. I like to think that someone is going to help us someday.

This will never be fixed until the studio abandons this Forge the Narrative crap and realizes that 40k is a wargame with 2 players who both would like an even chance at winning, not an RPG with 2 GMs and no players. Because in The Narrative some armies are winners and others are losers. How many novels do you know of when Orks win?

I don't think we should devolve to petty name calling when there are legitimate complaints and frustrations felt by customers. I too felt the Ork codex, however weak in the last edition, was needlessly downgraded this time around.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Don Savik wrote:
I mean, GW can't have their entire staff with their head in the sand right? Someone has to be aware that the entire internet has a problem with the balance of the ork/csm/nid/ig codexes compared to the other ones. I like to think that someone is going to help us someday.

This will never be fixed until the studio abandons this Forge the Narrative crap and realizes that 40k is a wargame with 2 players who both would like an even chance at winning, not an RPG with 2 GMs and no players. Because in The Narrative some armies are winners and others are losers. How many novels do you know of when Orks win?

Uh...I guess I'll get started then.

Its called "Da Biggest Ork"

Once der was an ork.
He was da biggest and meanest ork of dem all.
One day he punched all da 'umies and they died.

The End.

It'll be a popup book eventually. With tabs you pull to send the 'umies heads flying.
(black library hire me)

SemperMortis wrote:
I know I for one have a couple ideas about what is wrong with the Orks in 7th edition, but I would like to hear from the community at large, what is the biggest weakness of the Ork Codex?

My opinion is that we are an assault oriented army that doesn't have any of the cool new assault things. Like Assaulting from deep strike, assaulting from outflank, assaulting from anything pretty much except a trukk/battlewagon. And even then when we do get to assault we are only good for 1 turn before we drop back down to S3 on Boyz and S4 on Nobz.

Another glaring weakness in our codex is we don't have a single HQ worth a damn do to not having an invul save. So the only way to get your IC a save against power weapons is with a painboy giving you a 5+ FNP which you don't get against S10 weapons.

So anyway, what do you think is the biggest weakness/problem with the ork dex.

Well... I like orks. i don't play them that often but now that i own some, I have really enjoyed them.

In my games and this is just personal experience, but the only weakness i usually see is that Orks do not crack the really big armor very well. We also don't challenge 2+ and re-rollable type Invul saves very well. I got tied up by a Wraithguard unit and a couple of characters for a WHILE with a 30 man blob with a Nob. It was a little odd because everything needed 6's to wound. So i was pouring dice by the bucketload onto the table but ultimately causing about 1, maaaaaybe 2 unsaved wounds a phase. Now I am not totally against this since the Wraithguard are supposed to be tough (they were the sword and board ones) but it reminded me of playing Necron Scarabs where you essentially lose every round of combat until the enemy is dead. Lol.

the irony in that cannot be lost on anyne.

Now to be fair i tabled that guy and so it was not as if the end result wasnt satisfactory But I will admit that it seemed pretty amazing that we were stuck in that combat for three game turns. That's a pretty long time to get a decisive victory over something in close combat by almost any measure.

What can be done? Well whittling. Whittling is what can be done if you have the shooting to do it in the army. And that is the true dichotomy. Orks who are a Melee army really are avery good in the role of a shooting army! I have had so muh success when i commited them more to shooting, even though its really not as fun. But it is true that shooting stuff with orks actually works if you're committed to the task.

So i dunno whats to be done about it. orks are already so fun to play that its hard for me to want to change them over much. But i think Ard Boyz being more affordable would probably be a really good step in the right directions. Maybe only 2 points for Eavy armor?

Those are good points Jancoran. The shooting aspect of orks is definitely a problem. Lootas being a unit that could be fixed so easily by making it D3+1 shots a turn instead of the D3 that it currently is. (10 lootas with 4 shots each = 40 shots, with ork shooting that is about 13-14 hits at S7.)

Mek Gunz are another unit that could be fixed by simply giving them access to git findaz and fixing the ridiculous rules for most of the guns they have. Zzap gunz, Bubble Chuckas and the Smasha gun would be worth taking if they weren't so terrible with the random dice rolling. Maybe changing Smasha Gunz from S4+D6 to S7+D3 would alleviate the weapon going from useless against any armor 11+ to being an effective anti-vehicle weapon. The Zzap gun is the same thing S2D6 is just ridiculous for a single shot weapon. your either going to be swinging for the fences with an amazing shot S10 or you just bounced a S2 shot off the front armor of a rhino. And the BubbleChucka should be S6 AP D6, because as it stands shooting a S1 AP1 large blast is kind of pointless.

Flash Gitz are another model that is good at shooting but terrible in the game, over priced, random AP means your never sure of what they are going to do and with a 6+ save on such an expensive model.......yeah not worth the risk of using this. Another side note is that the only effective way to use these guys is in a battlewagon or a trukk and when that thing blows up your going to lose a fair amount of points. And even if you dont lose anyone to a vehicle explosion your going to be shot off the table with ease the next turn.

 koooaei wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:


Wait, so if Martel is the one always complainig about BA, is Semper the one who will always complain about Orks? If so, we need to fill in someone for each faction!

You should start a whole new thread on this one. There's gona be a heck of a fierce competition for the №1 CSM Whiner.

I'll happily volunteer as representative for the Black Templars.

What's that? We're not our own faction anymore?

EXACTLY!

Test the One Page 40K rules, forget GW rules.

I don't understand these threads... Orks are actually very good still... Yeah, they don't have all the cool toys and rules, and they are missing invuls, but otherwise they are solid.

I play BAs against my buddies orks. A cad with sm formations. I use a Librarius conclave and the formation with land speeders & whirlwinds. The rest is tac & jump marines. I almost always table him.

GW needs to fix mob rule really badly and power up Elite and Heavy Support choice a little. Ork vehicle's also need a little something, idk what, but a little something. Lower the cost of Boyz by one point. Change the number of special weapons ratio to one per 5 Boyz. One unit of basic Boyz should be able to get 'eavy armor for 1 point a piece. They should also bring back Scar boyz. Thats 1 unit per army that can get a +1 Str, I'd say for 1 point. That way ork players could get one unit of demi nobz for 8 points an ork.

I'll compare them to IG, which aren't quite as weak but focus on the same MOAR MODELS theme. I won't compare them to nids, because most good nid players have a circus instead of a horde.

The thing is, both armies focus on having waves and waves of garbage units. Small units are vulnerable to leadership tests, basic troops have terrible armor, and they aren't particularly powerful except in huge numbers.

Guard, however, can do decent shooting en masse. It works, because they can be 24" away and still put out 100 shots with first rank. This also lets them sit in cover which, while there is a lot of ignores cover, they're somewhat safe chilling out in the backfield. On top of that, heavy tank support.

Now orks. They have garbage shooting, so the only way they can do heavy killing is to get up close. This is they key weakness. A foot blob of orks has terrible armor or you overpay for armor, so they get gunned down by the hundreds trying to cross the field. In vehicles, you're running small squads. Vehicle pops, your orks now have terrible leadership and crumble.

You either get shooty armies that you never get in combat with (eldar, tau, certain marine builds, sort of guard) or you get armies that also excel in CC (various marine builds, demons) that beat you in init and you die before you swing. Then there's necrons who are sort of rounded and they still murder you. Every army has something that beats orks, because orks can't get close to shooting and can't match other melee focused armies.

Long story short, everyone does something better than them. Unless they get more durable or stop running away or get better at melee (which is weak in the edition to begin with) they'll lose to most armies.

 Btothefnrock wrote:
I don't understand these threads... Orks are actually very good still... Yeah, they don't have all the cool toys and rules, and they are missing invuls, but otherwise they are solid.

Said no Ork Player ever.

We are a close combat army without invul saves in Close combat. We are a close combat army that relies on S3 boyz. We are a close combat army that isn't fearless. The list goes on, but hey your right, there is nothing wrong.

 kingbobbito wrote:
Now orks. They have garbage shooting, so the only way they can do heavy killing is to get up close. This is they key weakness. A foot blob of orks has terrible armor or you overpay for armor, so they get gunned down by the hundreds trying to cross the field. In vehicles, you're running small squads. Vehicle pops, your orks now have terrible leadership and crumble.

Which is why the Green Tide was so awesome. You could take a couple of armored units and distribute the armor in a tactical way...away from AP4 or better and near the lasguns.

The potential for Actual Tactics was awesome. Don't even get me started on multi-charge blobology...an AWESOME science.

But of course that was deleted.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
Now orks. They have garbage shooting, so the only way they can do heavy killing is to get up close. This is they key weakness. A foot blob of orks has terrible armor or you overpay for armor, so they get gunned down by the hundreds trying to cross the field. In vehicles, you're running small squads. Vehicle pops, your orks now have terrible leadership and crumble.

Which is why the Green Tide was so awesome. You could take a couple of armored units and distribute the armor in a tactical way...away from AP4 or better and near the lasguns.

The potential for Actual Tactics was awesome. Don't even get me started on multi-charge blobology...an AWESOME science.

But of course that was deleted.

Wholeheartedly agree, Green Tide was really fun the one time I played against it. It was a close loss on my part, only one point apart, and almost nothing for either of us left on the table. Blobology truly is a great thing... rest in pieces, poor Green Tide.

How about a special rule that allows ork units of a certain size to ignore the penalties of multi charging? As part of Mob Rules mobs of 20+ ignore that penalty.

We also need to bring back "Mobbing up". That was where a mob that was at or below 25% of original strength could combine with another unit. They simply merged. This could keep tiny units from scarpering off the board.

 Red Marine wrote:
How about a special rule that allows ork units of a certain size to ignore the penalties of multi charging? As part of Mob Rules mobs of 20+ ignore that penalty.

Yea. The 'certain size' should be 1.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Red Marine wrote:
How about a special rule that allows ork units of a certain size to ignore the penalties of multi charging? As part of Mob Rules mobs of 20+ ignore that penalty.

Yea. The 'certain size' should be 1.

Nope.

Mob size and ork leadership has always been a problem for orks. Its their Achilles heel, its in the fluff.

There is nothing wrong with Orks.
Now hear me out.
The game changed around our codex and our codex never adjusted to the changes.
Shooting became more powerful than assault.
Challanges and target priority was added to the game killing our linchpin ICs.
Trukks were nerfed with ramshackle changes
Mob rule was nerfed from fearless.
And on and on until our codex just didn't work well with the current rules.

Str3 ap- assault spam failed to keep up with the numerous assault oriented units with better and better saves. 2+ is no longer the toughest armour in the galaxy And units with tougher more numerous attacks just steamed rolled a blob of tshirts wearing low str no ap assault blobs. Sadly this is the same problem guard have.

There are numerous threads on how to update aka fix Orks so I won't get to much into it here.

Personally I think Orks need ICs that act as force multipliers.
We need cheap painboys (25pts) who can be added to groups of boys for 5+ fnp to go along with a painboss HQ that grants a fnp buff (such as reroll) and can access an upgraded doc tools that acts like a poisened PK (seriously his fist is huge on that model)
We need nobs to come with each group of boys for free and affordable PKs (15pts) to go with warbosses who can waaagh each turn
We need(15pt) meks who can purchase affordable killsaws (20pts) and affordable kffs (35pts)(that gives a 5++ to shooting and works on friendly models within 6in) these can go with big mek warlords who can make dreads obj secured.
I'd like cheap ML1 weirdboyz who have access to a orc psychic power that increases str+2 of a unit.
And ml2 warpeads like the current pskyer with access to the above spell as well.
I'd like to see most ork named characters as squad upgrades except for ghaz (still LoW) and Maddoc (painboss hq upgrade).

I'd like stickbomb flinga 10pt options on all ork vehicles for a 5++ on the first glance or pen each turn. (Seriously the current stickbomb launcher rules are useless and each model already has access to a bit that can easily represent this.)

I'd like ere we go on all ork models including dreads.

I'd like cybork to be a +1 fnp modifier

I'd prefer if the mob rule table was just redone and the waagh supplement gave +2 making it a benefit instead of detriment.

Something like
1- unit fails morale test
2-3- if unit has a character it suffers 1d6 str4 ap-hits and automatically pass if not see 1
4- if unit is in combat automatically pass if not see 3
5- units of 10 or more automatically pass if not see 4
6+- unit is fearless until end of turn

Boss pole adds +1 to roll.
Ghaz supplement adds +2 to roll but increases the breaking heads result +3 hits (a roll of 2-3 on above chart).

Do the above changes and Adjust the cost on a few units And Orks would be a decent codex.

 Red Marine wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Red Marine wrote:
How about a special rule that allows ork units of a certain size to ignore the penalties of multi charging? As part of Mob Rules mobs of 20+ ignore that penalty.

Yea. The 'certain size' should be 1.

Nope.

Mob size and ork leadership has always been a problem for orks. Its their Achilles heel, its in the fluff.

Yes, but disordered charges are what the orks do best. It fits their combat style. No ork was ever worried that his left flank is exposed or whether his line was dressed while he swings his choppa, so the idea that he should reduce the number or strength of his swings in those cases is just silly.

Orks receive both confidence and psychic benefits when there's a lot of them. Plus charging 2 separate units that outnumber you, while under overwatch fire is daunting to say the least. Its a benefit similar to the ones received when using a full unit in otjer codexes. I'm also proposing this with the idea of reinstating Mobbing Up.

That makes sense, the orks should have some advantages of large units apart from the opportunity to kill yourselves. I just wouldn't use the disordered charge benefit for that. Even if they had a graduated scale of leadership bonuses like

10-14 +1
15-19 +2
20-24 +3
25+ fearless

that would be pretty fun and awesome, yet still give the opponent some hope after the orks get whittled down. I read somewhere that GW got serious grumbling from other factions about fearless orks. It's too bad their complaints got heard and ours get ignored.

If I had to pick one thing, I would say Trukks.
Core infantry choice relies on an AV10 transport to get into CC with a 12 maximum capacity.

Runner ups are no close combat invulnerable saves.

Might have posted this already, but Orks are OK, aside a few questionable rules. It's the external balance that's the problem.

You look at Orks, IG, BA and DE and they can all stand up against each other. You could probably through in CSM, SW (no TWC) and Tyranids (no Flyrants) in there too. Against any 2015 Codex (including Khorne Daemonkin, because they do combat way better and can rock Fear which Orks are vulnerable too), it's an uphill battle.

Well, almost all the units of the codex are overpriced. Some just a bit and others greatly overpriced

Also the S3 on an ork sucks (and is irreal, looks those arms!). If someone charge you or you dont win the battle on your assault....you are terrible fethed

The resistance of the army is terrible. Long long long ago when the weapons were not soo destructive as today, that was logic: you are soft but you have to many to get killed.... But now the armies can kill buckets of orks in a turn... Think the ork codex was designed for the 4th edition xDD

The walkers are terrible

The psiquic poers are poor.

The lack of invulnerables make our IC the fun of the melee IC


so many things.... The army sucks....and that hurt me since i love them xD

If something, mob rule and ramshackle are buffs compared to previous versions. That's not where the problems lie at all.

 koooaei wrote:
If something, mob rule and ramshackle are buffs compared to previous versions. That's not where the problems lie at all.

Trolling or serious? sometimes it is hard to tell with people on Dakka. I know when the codex first dropped everyone thought the New Mob rule was a buff and now it has finally become common knowledge that it is utter trash and ruined a lot of ork builds.

And for Ramshackle....that is physically impossible. Turning a pen into a glance on a 6 is not even close to as useful as the old ramshackle table....nor is it as fun.

I don't find mob rule all that terrible, actually. It's not bad for smaller squads. I'm not as familiar with the old mob rule, but it apparently screwed over small squads even worse than the current one. Sure, it hurts when my boyz die due to a failed morale test but at least my MANz or small tankbusta squads won't just run if they fail their morale.

Can't comment on ramshackle, though. I have literally no idea what it used to do.

One great use of trukks, if you have a lot. drive them 24 inches and park them 1" away from the enemy. If they shoot it, it blows them up too.

30 points isn't that bad for a 24" bomb.

I push two trucks on my "slow flank" in order to provide cover while I trudge behind it. Its pretty effective on tournament tables as there is usually an LOSW blocker that the trucks an form a wall with. It makes it a lot easier to bring the orks to the fight this way.

My last game was against a Battle Company

morfydd wrote:
Orks like AM are competative at low point games (750-) and High point games (3500+) but suck in between

Hahahahaha.
WraithKnight 295
Warlock on bike 50
3x Scatbikes for 81

Youre so cute.

That was kinda rude.

Also as an aside: It was Hammer and Anvil and I did table this fellow. Just saying. His Battle Company and all his free stuff couldn't save him. His Whirlwinds couldn't save him. He would be the first to tell you that codex's don't win Champinships. Orks win championships. Hehehe..

In all serous, orks are a tougher one to win with but it can be done and it will be done. =)

 koooaei wrote:
If something, mob rule and ramshackle are buffs compared to previous versions. That's not where the problems lie at all.

Koooaei, how can you say this is a buff? Brother you know better.
Trukk pops.
Boyz die
Fail pinning Test
boyz die
>25% dead in shooting
Boyz die.

Its like your opponents work is done for him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Jancoran and morfydd... Youre right I apologize. Nerd rage misdirected

 doktor_g wrote:

Koooaei, how can you say this is a buff? Brother you know better.
Trukk pops.
Boyz die
Fail pinning Test
boyz die
>25% dead in shooting
Boyz die.

The difference is that in previous edition when truck popped, you just got pinned. And pinned boyz are worse than a few more dead boyz. Now you can loose a few boyz and still stay a threat. Furthermore, 'ard boyz and meganobz now have a chance to NOT run away or get pinned. And this chance is 5/9. That's the thing that made them actually playable. The focus has shifted from naked boyz to armored boyz and meganobz. And i like it cause it's fewer bodies. Too tired of hordes by this point.

Mob rule is only worse for larger squads. But let's be fair. Our large squads are hordes of footslogging boyz and hordes suck since 6-th. The only viable horde was Greentide and they were fearless via bosspole. Current mob rule is >> than previous mob rule for smaller squads. That's my math. So, all in all, it's benefical. The only real drawback is fear tests.

As for trukks, they now have a chance to save against a freaking D-weapon. And they're 5 pt cheaper than they used to be. Old ramshackle was fun but it wasn't too good. s3 explosion hits was simply a loophole back from...4-th ed i think. Ramshackle with s4 explosion would be worse than no ramshackle at all now. Don't forget than trukks will get wrecked more often than explosed now. And ramshackle worked on any destroyed result.

Nothing is wrong with the Orks, is the Eldar, Space Marine, Necrons, and GKs that need to be walloped with a nerf bat. Their biggest problem is the same as the Imperial Guard's, you have to spam units to make things work, and you don't have near the variety of problem solving vehicles and equipment other armies have.

 Jancoran wrote:
That was kinda rude.

Also as an aside: It was Hammer and Anvil and I did table this fellow. Just saying. His Battle Company and all his free stuff couldn't save him. His Whirlwinds couldn't save him. He would be the first to tell you that codex's don't win Champinships. Orks win championships. Hehehe..

In all serous, orks are a tougher one to win with but it can be done and it will be done. =)

Ah yes, who could forget all those times Orks won LVO and BAO? Yeah it can be done, but that doesn't mean A) you have to be extremely lucky and B) it's not hard as hell.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
That was kinda rude.

Also as an aside: It was Hammer and Anvil and I did table this fellow. Just saying. His Battle Company and all his free stuff couldn't save him. His Whirlwinds couldn't save him. He would be the first to tell you that codex's don't win Champinships. Orks win championships. Hehehe..

In all serous, orks are a tougher one to win with but it can be done and it will be done. =)

Ah yes, who could forget all those times Orks won LVO and BAO? Yeah it can be done, but that doesn't mean A) you have to be extremely lucky and B) it's not hard as hell.

Anyone winning the BAO had to be lucky. its a dice game.

And it being harder...I think...was pretty clearly acknowledged so i dont know why you're bothering to say so.

But sure.

 Vitali Advenil wrote:


Can't comment on ramshackle, though. I have literally no idea what it used to do.

The big thing about the old ramshackle was it still had S3 explode damage. Also, you could possibly avoid having an explodes result (I think it downgraded to a wreck) and there was kareen, which sent the wreckage flying in a random direction determined by scatterdie.

Overall, it was FAR superior to the garbage 6+ downgrade to a glance rule. Maybe if they made it a 5+ it would be okay. Even then, just give Trukks AV11 and be done with it.

Better yet what Orks really need is the Gunwagon and mid-tier AV13 wagon from the Forgeworld book. Both of those sound great. Looted Wagons should be Fast Attack/dedicated transport options. Trukks just don't cut the mustard and I hesitate to even get engaged in this army for that reason. 12 models? It made sense when there were hidden power klaws.

I mis careening into stuff. Even your own stuff.

I think I have a few ideas for 'fixing' Orks:

First of all, make Boyz S4. It's ridiculous that they're as strong as simple 'umies.

Maybe lower the price to 5 points.

Maybe they should be able to buy a Big Choppa for every 5 Orks in the squad.

Maybe lower Nob prices?

Also, implement some sort of Chaos Mark system but for Ork clans. Maybe 4 different ones, each giving a buff applying to its corresponding tribe. Maybe

Evil Sunz/Red Paint Job: Unit may run 6 inches and charges 6+1D6 inches

Deathskulls/Blue Paint: Unit may re-roll any die once a turn.

Goffs/Armour Plates: Units receives a 6+ FnP

Bad Moons/Teef: Not sure about this one. How do you implement richness into a game?

Also, what about a Dakka Dakka rule for Big Shootas and other big guns? Maybe for every pair ofsixes youg et when rolling makes the target go to ground.

Does this sound good?

 Jancoran wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
That was kinda rude.

Also as an aside: It was Hammer and Anvil and I did table this fellow. Just saying. His Battle Company and all his free stuff couldn't save him. His Whirlwinds couldn't save him. He would be the first to tell you that codex's don't win Champinships. Orks win championships. Hehehe..

In all serous, orks are a tougher one to win with but it can be done and it will be done. =)

Ah yes, who could forget all those times Orks won LVO and BAO? Yeah it can be done, but that doesn't mean A) you have to be extremely lucky and B) it's not hard as hell.

Anyone winning the BAO had to be lucky. its a dice game.

And it being harder...I think...was pretty clearly acknowledged so i dont know why you're bothering to say so.

But sure.

Because, like most of your arguments, you're saying Ork players just need to L2P. It gets old, fast. As a seasoned 40k, League, MtG, Competitive anything player, Orks are in a bad, bad spot. Even their best build (bikes) can get murdered via Ignores Cover and no Invulns.

Orks got toned down at the start of 7th, and then other armies got buffed starting with Necrons. That's what's wrong.

You know what would be fun? If every Painboy had the ability to "Pile on Da Pain", which is currently only available in that special formation from the Orks Start Collecting box. And if you bring Mad Doc Grotsnik, you can Pile on Da Pain every turn.

 Matthew wrote:
I think I have a few ideas for 'fixing' Orks:

First of all, make Boyz S4. It's ridiculous that they're as strong as simple 'umies.

Maybe lower the price to 5 points.

Maybe they should be able to buy a Big Choppa for every 5 Orks in the squad.

Maybe lower Nob prices?

Also, implement some sort of Chaos Mark system but for Ork clans. Maybe 4 different ones, each giving a buff applying to its corresponding tribe. Maybe

Evil Sunz/Red Paint Job: Unit may run 6 inches and charges 6+1D6 inches

Deathskulls/Blue Paint: Unit may re-roll any die once a turn.

Goffs/Armour Plates: Units receives a 6+ FnP

Bad Moons/Teef: Not sure about this one. How do you implement richness into a game?

Also, what about a Dakka Dakka rule for Big Shootas and other big guns? Maybe for every pair ofsixes youg et when rolling makes the target go to ground.

Does this sound good?

I think that STR 3 is appropriate. relativer to humans they are probably stronger, but certainly not as strong as Space Marine servo enginves or Necron Machines and so on. STR 4 is super human strength and i just dont think orks have that. So i support them being STR 3 relative to the rest of the 40K universe.

I like the Big Choppa idea. Perhaps every 10. 5 seems kinda extreme but yeah, giving them that extra OOMPH with a semi-special weapon seems like a fair tradeoff instead of the STR boost.

I definitely would love to see more in-game benefits for choosing a Klan but you INSTANTLY run into the problem of one Klan becoming preiminent for advantage. Klan benefits that are minor would be a better move but the way GW does things... Well I doubtr seriously that would happen.

An example though might be that BadMoons get 10 points of the cost of Vehicles and 1 point off the cost of vehicle upgrades. Not as extreme as a battle company but its still cool. But with it comes some kind of downside. For example, the BadMoons HAVE to take at least three units of Gretchin because lord knows they wouldnt be caught dead without servants around. I dunno. Something minor but flavorful.

And I would love it if the ones that like StormBoyz (Goffs?) were able to try and attack flyers when their Stormboyz Deep Strike! How fun would that be. Lol. Call it "Charge from the skies" or something and let each member of the unit take a single STR 4 swipe at its rear armor, and any successful hits, damaging or otherwise kills the associated Ork. I can just imagine a bunch of Kamikaze orks being dropped from above and pouncing on a plane until it explodes on them. Anyone who didint hit keeps falling and finishes the deep strike as normal.

Anyways, stuff like that. That would be fun.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
That was kinda rude.

Also as an aside: It was Hammer and Anvil and I did table this fellow. Just saying. His Battle Company and all his free stuff couldn't save him. His Whirlwinds couldn't save him. He would be the first to tell you that codex's don't win Champinships. Orks win championships. Hehehe..

In all serous, orks are a tougher one to win with but it can be done and it will be done. =)

Ah yes, who could forget all those times Orks won LVO and BAO? Yeah it can be done, but that doesn't mean A) you have to be extremely lucky and B) it's not hard as hell.

Anyone winning the BAO had to be lucky. its a dice game.

And it being harder...I think...was pretty clearly acknowledged so i dont know why you're bothering to say so.

But sure.

Because, like most of your arguments, you're saying Ork players just need to L2P. It gets old, fast. As a seasoned 40k, League, MtG, Competitive anything player, Orks are in a bad, bad spot. Even their best build (bikes) can get murdered via Ignores Cover and no Invulns.

I acknowledged that it takes more effort and you act as if i didn't just to pick a fight. What's your problem? Looking for a fight seems pointless.

Where I stop short and people like you DON'T stop short is saying that given Codex X, you're screwed against Codex Y. THAT is just a losing mentality.

As a longtime competitive blah blah blah, I've won tournaments you say i shouldn't have and I've beaten lists you say i shouldn't have using lists I had no business using in your opinion. At some point, my medals outweigh your skepticism.

Stop picking fights dude. I think we all agree the ork codex can use some help, i think I was pretty clear on my ideas and I dont think i ever gave the impression that there wasn't a need for improvement. Pretending I DID say any of those things so you can snipe at me for something i DIDNT say is dumb.

 Jancoran wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
That was kinda rude.

Also as an aside: It was Hammer and Anvil and I did table this fellow. Just saying. His Battle Company and all his free stuff couldn't save him. His Whirlwinds couldn't save him. He would be the first to tell you that codex's don't win Champinships. Orks win championships. Hehehe..

In all serous, orks are a tougher one to win with but it can be done and it will be done. =)

Ah yes, who could forget all those times Orks won LVO and BAO? Yeah it can be done, but that doesn't mean A) you have to be extremely lucky and B) it's not hard as hell.

Anyone winning the BAO had to be lucky. its a dice game.

And it being harder...I think...was pretty clearly acknowledged so i dont know why you're bothering to say so.

But sure.

Because, like most of your arguments, you're saying Ork players just need to L2P. It gets old, fast. As a seasoned 40k, League, MtG, Competitive anything player, Orks are in a bad, bad spot. Even their best build (bikes) can get murdered via Ignores Cover and no Invulns.

I acknowledged that it takes more effort and you act as if i didn't just to pick a fight. What's your problem? Looking for a fight seems pointless.

Where I stop short and people like you DON'T stop short is saying that given Codex X, you're screwed against Codex Y. THAT is just a losing mentality.

Assuming equivalent cheese builds, Codex X WILL beat Codex Y, 3/4 times. That's a fact. That's why in most tournaments people bring X number of Eldar, X number of Tau, X number of Space marines, and 1 or 2 Orks or Tyranids.

As a longtime competitive blah blah blah, I've won tournaments you say i shouldn't have and I've beaten lists you say i shouldn't have using lists I had no business using in your opinion. At some point, my medals outweigh your skepticism.

Oh, right, all your anecdotal evidence about how you're the latest and greatest player. I've seen you use that same argument in the Mutilators thread about how they are the latest and greatest unit, people just need to L2P them.

Stop picking fights dude. I think we all agree the ork codex can use some help, i think I was pretty clear on my ideas and I dont think i ever gave the impression that there wasn't a need for improvement. Pretending I DID say any of those things so you can snipe at me for something i DIDNT say is dumb.

You said this:

Orks win championships. Hehehe..

In all serous, orks are a tougher one to win with but it can be done and it will be done. =)

Pretty much implying that people just suck at playing the game.

 jreilly89 wrote:

Oh, right, all your anecdotal evidence about how you're the latest and greatest player. I've seen you use that same argument in the Mutilators thread about how they are the latest and greatest unit, people just need to L2P them.

You said this: Orks win championships. Hehehe.. In all serous, orks are a tougher one to win with but it can be done and it will be done. =)

Pretty much implying that people just suck at playing the game.

That...is me...implying... nothing?

Tongue in cheek is a thing. Your willful inability to detect it is not my problem. Your wish to pick a fight over nothing however is my problem.

"Anecdotal? There are 1500 people currently ranked in the ITC. Where do you sit on that list? I'll tell you where i sit: high enough not to care about whether you think its anecdotal, as of this last update. Lol.

I don't give a rip if you THINK I'm good or bad. last time i checked, this forum allowed any one of any skill or luck to post ideas, opinions or pictures, even you. It also, in theory, protects people who do and when that promise breaks down, I guess we gotta have this chat. But the LAST guy on that ITC list has as much right to post as you do and when he does, one hopes you'll be nicer to him than you are to me. Or not. Up to you. But you seem to feel justified in attacking me just because I do things differently than you and I hold my ground when you say I'm wrong. I just don't think that's enough reason to come at me, frankly. But I can certainly travel down this road if you really want to.

Do you wanna talk about orks, or my ITC standing? I can go either way. Up to you.

 Jancoran wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

Oh, right, all your anecdotal evidence about how you're the latest and greatest player. I've seen you use that same argument in the Mutilators thread about how they are the latest and greatest unit, people just need to L2P them.

You said this: Orks win championships. Hehehe.. In all serous, orks are a tougher one to win with but it can be done and it will be done. =)

Pretty much implying that people just suck at playing the game.

That...is me...implying... nothing?

Tongue in cheek is a thing. Your willful inability to detect it is not my problem. Your wish to pick a fight over nothing however is my problem.

"Anecdotal? There are 1500 people currently ranked in the ITC. Where do you sit on that list? I'll tell you where i sit: high enough not to care about whether you think its anecdotal, as of this last update. Lol.

I don't give a rip if you THINK I'm good or bad. last time i checked, this forum allowed any one of any skill or luck to post ideas, opinions or pictures, even you. It also, in theory, protects people who do and when that promise breaks down, I guess we gotta have this chat. But the LAST guy on that ITC list has as much right to post as you do and when he does, one hopes you'll be nicer to him than you are to me. Or not. Up to you. But you seem to feel justified in attacking me just because I do things differently than you and I hold my ground when you say I'm wrong. I just don't think that's enough reason to come at me, frankly. But I can certainly travel down this road if you really want to.

Do you wanna talk about orks, or my ITC standing? I can go either way. Up to you.

I would actually love to talk about your ITC standing and whether or not you brought Orks. First, I hope you don't think I'm attacking you, I'm attacking anyone who uses or SEEMS to use the L2P defense. It's an internet forum, barring a few lines of text, it's hard for me to tell whether you're being serious or not. Second, I find it funny you think I'm attacking you, when you got defensive first.

Finally, on to the ITC, this is old news from 2015, but relevant. A gentleman collected all the ITC rankings and sorted them by factions. Orks, while having a decent number of players at 35, only one made it in the Top 30 and none made it into the Top 10. So no, I don't think Orks can win championships, even with the most skilled of generals.

Despite apparently not using the faction, I've gotten L2P arguments from Jancoran with BA as well. This thread is not surprising.

Your reaction isn't either. Lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:


I would actually love to talk about your ITC standing and whether or not you brought Orks. First, I hope you don't think I'm attacking you, I'm attacking anyone who uses or SEEMS to use the L2P defense. It's an internet forum, barring a few lines of text, it's hard for me to tell whether you're being serious or not. Second, I find it funny you think I'm attacking you, when you got defensive first.

Finally, on to the ITC, this is old news from 2015, but relevant. A gentleman collected all the ITC rankings and sorted them by factions. Orks, while having a decent number of players at 35, only one made it in the Top 30 and none made it into the Top 10. So no, I don't think Orks can win championships, even with the most skilled of generals.

Great. I'm in the top 4% as of the most recent update. I don't play orks often, but I do play them and do enjoy them as that pic I posted implies. Just a ton of green. Lovely fields of green.

I already conceded, like four times, that orks will be harder for you to take all the way. I also don't think you can't take them all the way. I went 8 straight wins in tourney play with Orks before hitting a brick wall, and that was chronicled on my blog, so i wont go over it here. if you care, take a look. if not, that's cool.

I am mainly in this thread totalk about what we can change or alternatively what needs to change so that folks like you can be less frustrated with the codex.

It doesnt help that the codex thingee just came out. I dont anticipate a big change any time soon

well, S3 sucks. On games, novels and codex, GW usually mention how strong an ork is (just need to see the new dawn of war, dismembering a marine with his own hands xD)

Also orks are an army that shoots bad, but is not great in close combat and has units overpriced for their resistance

Franarok wrote:
well, S3 sucks. On games, novels and codex, GW usually mention how strong an ork is (just need to see the new dawn of war, dismembering a marine with his own hands xD)

Also orks are an army that shoots bad, but is not great in close combat and has units overpriced for their resistance

You mean the one where bodies fall from nowhere for no reason?

Franarok wrote:
well, S3 sucks. On games, novels and codex, GW usually mention how strong an ork is (just need to see the new dawn of war, dismembering a marine with his own hands xD)

Also orks are an army that shoots bad, but is not great in close combat and has units overpriced for their resistance

ork accuracy looks bad but its volume can be so copious that it kind of makes up for it. I kind of like shooty orks. thats how i played the first list i tried. Had a ton o Zzap guns and ammo runts, had gretchen and lots of them, shielding meganobz, war buggies and lootas... a lot of shooting. It seemed to work and with s many wounds to give meaninglessly almost in some cases, the eluge of dice was enough sometimes to make the enemy bite sized and tasty with ketchup.

 Cleatus wrote:
Orks got toned down at the start of 7th, and then other armies got buffed starting with Necrons. That's what's wrong.

I really want to know who the hell at GW thought Orks needed toning down in the first place.

 Matthew wrote:
Bad Moons/Teef: Not sure about this one. How do you implement richness into a game?

Anything that rewards you with free models, like the GSF.

But you can't put runts on everything, no mention only one use. Also runts make units even more expensive when they usually are overpriced for no reason.
And vehicles are bs2. With a lot of vehicles focused on shoot a powerful weapon that sucks (battlewawon, big trakk supa canon, lifta...) . Or the new flyer with the smasha gun (against the two s9 shoots of the Marine one we have one of bs2 of random strength haha). The morkanaut with his weapons of only one shot, etc etc

And yeah, I still can't understand why gw nerfed most of the codex (to lay things to comment here). Is was particularly odd with the kans: if the walkers usually are bad because rules, how they nerfed the Kans lowering their strength, being raised 20 pts and adding the rules of being coward?
I mean, they were so much gamebreaking to such large Nerf?

And why quit the invulnerable to IC? Maybe some marine player son of some directive couldn't kill a warboss in cqc? XD

Orks in FFG's 40K line are as strong as strong but not freakishly strong human beings, if that counts for something. I don't see any indication that they are supposed to be beyond the human range of the spectrum.

Ironically the best I have done against an Eldar player recently was when I surprised him by Bringing 2 Horde Detachments loaded up with Heavy Support slots. EG lots of Lootas, 5 Mek Gunz and some Battlewagonz toting those mostly useless Killkannonz.

He was a little shocked when on turn 1 I put out 3 big Pie Plates and 5 small ones at S7Ap3 and S8AP2 and the lootas (30 of them) rolled 3 shots each so 90 S7AP4 shots went downrange.

Turn 1 I immobilized or destroyed all his vehicles and forced 2 units of SCAT bikes to take leadership checks because my pie plates scattered off and fethed them up a bit (AP2 and they can't jink because they weren't the target).

Yeah, wouldn't spamming Lootas and Mek Gunz be the best way to win?

Alcibiades wrote:
Orks in FFG's 40K line are as strong as strong but not freakishly strong human beings, if that counts for something. I don't see any indication that they are supposed to be beyond the human range of the spectrum.

That's nice, but the 4th edition codex mentions how an ork boy could tear out a human's throat with their bare hands. It also talks about how orks are far more muscular than a human.

 Matthew wrote:
Yeah, wouldn't spamming Lootas and Mek Gunz be the best way to win?

Only when you are surprising your opponent. Otherwise no, ork shooting is terrible. 90 S7AP4 shots from 30 lootas equals 30 hits on 2 different targets. Don't get me wrong that is a lot, but look at it this way, against a Tac squad thats 12-13 wounds and 4 dead marines. And that is the BEST a Loota mob can do. the KMK Mek Gunz are good and at BS3 mind you, but they have "Gets Hot" special rule so your sinking more points into ammo grots (well not anymore). and Battlewagonz are just trash at this point. AV14/12/10 means you die to flanking fire every game.

Even against the Eldar opponent I surprised he was able to destroy all my Battlewagonz because Firedragons eat them for breakfast. I only won that game because I had 6 squads of Boyz running around as bubblewrap for those gunz and wagonz so they survived for a few turns to lay down some dakka.

I promise you, if I showed up with that list again I would get tabled. furthermore, HOLY CRAP is it boring! I don't know how Tau do it, I was so bored the entire game.

 Matthew wrote:
Yeah, wouldn't spamming Lootas and Mek Gunz be the best way to win?

Its never a bad idea.

Orks from warhammer are far different from clasic fantasy orcs. Indeed fantasy orks are stronger than humans but not freakingly.

but warhammer orks are FAR stronger than humans on lore and codex. And hell, only need see the miniature, an ork arm is more than twice the size of an guard xD

And yeah, orks are bad shooting. Lootas are our best shooting unit, but can be easily erased from the game haha

I still think what orks need is a midrange dedicated transport option, else a fast attack transport option that can be used with boyz.

If they made gunwagonz, looted wagons and the AV13 transport from IA8 available as dedicated transport options or fast attack options, I think it would actually fix a big achilles heel that has been with orks for a long time.

How about some sort of actual dedicated battle tank? Since the Battlewagon is mostly used as a transport, how about an actual tank?

Orks don't need tanks, they need a decent dedicated transport for boyz or a fast attack transport option. Read the codex.

We have a tank, its called the Looted Wagon. I think its a pretty good unit but most people overlook it since its rules came in a white dwarf and isn't in the codex.

They don't need a NEW transport, they need to fix the damn trukk. Make it less explody.

well, i cant name a F11 vehicle a "tank" xD

Think the most close to a tank are on FW: the grott mega tank and the big trakk (both with 40k seal)

If you oponent is not an donkey-cave who dont let you use FW units being you an ork player....well, look another rival xDD

 Don Savik wrote:
We have a tank, its called the Looted Wagon. I think its a pretty good unit but most people overlook it since its rules came in a white dwarf and isn't in the codex.

They don't need a NEW transport, they need to fix the damn trukk. Make it less explody.

Make trukks at least 11/11/10 so bolters can't plink them to death, make ramshackle a 5+ to glance, and bring back the looted wagon rules. That would solve a ton of issues we have right now. I really do think the main issue with trukks is that they're so vulnerable to S4 fire.

Or give trukks jink.

Non-skimmers can't jink, so maybe some other save would work. I'd rather take the 11/11/10 buff instead. That would mean marines couldn't touch it so heavier weapons would be forced to shoot at it, sparing your tougher units like MANz, wagons, bikes, etc.

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
Non-skimmers can't jink, so maybe some other save would work. I'd rather take the 11/11/10 buff instead. That would mean marines couldn't touch it so heavier weapons would be forced to shoot at it, sparing your tougher units like MANz, wagons, bikes, etc.

False, Bikes and Jetbikes can jink. It would make sense if all fast vehicles could jink.

I think raising the base cost of a trukk to 40pts and giving it 11/11/10 and jink would help out SIGNIFICANTLY! just so long as GW doesn't come out with some other new stupid rule that says a jinking trukk isn't allowed to unload its troops to assault the following turn.....and knowing GW that is exactly what they would do.

As well as fixing ramshackle to a 5+ and maybe bringing back a version of the older ramshackle rule for when it does explode.

 Matthew wrote:


Also, implement some sort of Chaos Mark system

Mark of Gork - gives you 'ere We Go and Furious Charge
Mark of Mork - gives you Furious Charge and 'ere We Go

 koooaei wrote:

 Matthew wrote:


Also, implement some sort of Chaos Mark system

Mark of Gork - gives you 'ere We Go and Furious Charge
Mark of Mork - gives you Furious Charge and 'ere We Go

Don't give GW ideas. They might actually implement this.

 Jancoran wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
That was kinda rude.

Also as an aside: It was Hammer and Anvil and I did table this fellow. Just saying. His Battle Company and all his free stuff couldn't save him. His Whirlwinds couldn't save him. He would be the first to tell you that codex's don't win Champinships. Orks win championships. Hehehe..

In all serous, orks are a tougher one to win with but it can be done and it will be done. =)

Ah yes, who could forget all those times Orks won LVO and BAO? Yeah it can be done, but that doesn't mean A) you have to be extremely lucky and B) it's not hard as hell.

Anyone winning the BAO had to be lucky. its a dice game.

And it being harder...I think...was pretty clearly acknowledged so i dont know why you're bothering to say so.

But sure.

Right you have to be lucky to win major 40k Tournaments. Thats why its the same people keep topping the same tournaments over and over

Oh wait...

 koooaei wrote:
Mark of Gork - gives you 'ere We Go and Furious Charge
Mark of Mork - gives you Furious Charge and 'ere We Go

I.,.. LoL'd...HARD

my two(4) cents:

1) its not only that orks are pretty weak they are TEDIOUS to play... a single freaking pen on a trukk can take foreever to resolve... its test after rerolled test after random allocation after test after rerolled test after random allocation....just streamline the whole thing.

2) mob rule... roll a d3 1: too bad, you failed 2: if char alive or 10+ boyz, you passed, take d3 wounds (saves allowed) 3: same as 2 but no casulties... DONE. its fast, easy, fair and effective.

3) how to fix trukks? make em cheaper. 150pts for 12 boyz (200pts if you want a 4+ armour)...is just plain ridiculous. also trukkboyz need to get back to only receiving s3 hits when the trukk explodes and need to auto pass the following ld check. also EVERY mob should get a mek as an upgrade option (lets face it... he will eat up exactly ONE challenge before beeing smushed into green tidy bits)

4) i actually like the idea of orks having no invul saves... its kinda unique and orky... just give every ork a flat 6+ FnP. dokz and other shenenigans should only modify the FnP. so big ork chars(Warbosses) can get a 4+ FnP (under certain circumstances... cybork body and painboy in the squad)

5) make useful formations... the ghaz formation is great and all but it costs a minimum of freakish 1000 points... we need stuff like the eldar aspect host... small useful semi effective things... like: field 3x30 boyz and they'll get fearless or take 3 spezialist mobs (meganobz, burnaz, lootaz, tankbustaz etc) and they get an random special rule each phase (tankhunter, preffered enemy or whatever)

EDIT:

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
I don't find mob rule all that terrible, actually. It's not bad for smaller squads. I'm not as familiar with the old mob rule, but it apparently screwed over small squads even worse than the current one. Sure, it hurts when my boyz die due to a failed morale test but at least my MANz or small tankbusta squads won't just run if they fail their morale.

Can't comment on ramshackle, though. I have literally no idea what it used to do.

ramshackle:

mob rule:
orks can always substitute their LD value for number of boyz left in mob (should have been wounds), 10+ orkmobs are fearless.
Bosspole lets you reroll moraletest after inflicting ONE wound on the mob



its not so much that the old rules were better (well, they WERE better, especially when you consider the powerlevel of the meta game back then) but it was fast and easy...
also on a similar note... orks used to double their initiative when attacking (old whaagh rule) which was later replaced by the OLD furious charge special rule (+1 strength AND +1 Initiative )

RedNoak wrote:
3) how to fix trukks? make em cheaper. 150pts for 12 boyz (200pts if you want a 4+ armour)...is just plain ridiculous. also trukkboyz need to get back to only receiving s3 hits when the trukk explodes and need to auto pass the following ld check. also EVERY mob should get a mek as an upgrade option (lets face it... he will eat up exactly ONE challenge before beeing smushed into green tidy bits)

12 boyz in a trukk is 102, 150 with armor.

 JimOnMars wrote:
12 boyz in a trukk is 102, 150 with armor.

so you play without nobs? without any upgrades?

12 boyz
nob, BP, PK
trukk, ram
-----> 147pts
with armour: 195pts
with armour and mek: 200pts

RedNoak wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
12 boyz in a trukk is 102, 150 with armor.

so you play without nobs? without any upgrades?

12 boyz
nob, BP, PK
trukk, ram
-----> 147pts
with armour: 195pts
with armour and mek: 200pts

Quite often I do. 12 choppas, trukk & ram at a clean 107 can hack through a lot of smaller units. If they don't, sometimes they can stay in combat and prevent a round of enemy shooting or charging. Often the trukk lives to score a maelstrom point somewhere. not great, but any unit that can do that a lot of the time, at 107, is usually worth it's points. Competitive? No, but in friendly games this can be enough. IMHO.

I actually was thinking this weekend on how to fix the issue of low I ork nobz being sort of made useless by challenge rules ... special rule "I'm the meanest and the greenest" when a challenge is issued an ork boy can accept rather than a character, if the ork boy wins the challenge replace the boy with a slug/choppa nob. one of the big current issues is the nob gets challenged, usually beaten by what did the challenge before ever getting to swing that claw, or if he does not accept cannot ever attack. A proper nob would send in the ladz to make sure they was fighting in before jumping in himself.

I love the idea. It's like a field promotion...watch the boy grow before your eyes!

Probably waaaaay too cool and fluffy for GW ever to give it to us.

It makes plenty of sense. I mean, the chances of a standard boy surviving a challenge is piss-poor, but hey, it keeps our nobs safe and it's even a chance to get another nob! Though I think to keep it balanced this should only work in a squad without any independent characters. Since boss nobs are only normal characters it would work great for them.

The problem is that, to GW eyes, they already did a great job with the last insulting suplement .

So they will no make a new ork codex on at least 2 years. specially since on the last fest announced a lot of gak to 30k and imperial titans, and imperial marines, and imperial robots from mechanicum, and imperial new ships, and imperial new dreads, and a bit tau



GW really fethed orks on 7th (and chaos too, but that is a different topic xD)

Cheaper trukkz don't fix the problem though, because unfortunately they tend to inflict more casualties on the passengers then enemy shooting does.

Honestly the biggest problem I see for Orks at the moment is that there isn't a whole lot you can do for them in the current meta because historically we are a horde army. Our only troop options are a horde of boyz or a horde of gretchen.

The biggest buff that needs to happen is increasing the durability of boyz. 6+ FNP across the board would be good, or give every unit the option of spending 15-20pts for a Painboy to be added to the unit, also every unit should be able to take a Mek or have some mechanic in place where the nob doesn't get splattered in the 1st round of combat due to a challenge.

Also I think a minor buff such as +1S would be VERY useful to help boyz become more playable. Honesty if you play orks and you don't win combat in the 1st round your in trouble, A lot of people will jump on board the band wagon and say something like "Well then don't charge that unit, use tactics" well that is kind of hard to do when the only real tactic an ork player has is tie up the shooty stuff with your choppy stuff.

Anyway back to buffing Orks in general. I think a number of units could use a significant price reduction, the worst offenders being Nobz in all their forms (Mega, regular, Biker). I think that Bikes should be cheaper across the board for orks. Every vehicle in the ork army is over priced horribly. Killa Kanz for how useless they are should be 30pts at the most, not 50. Deff dreads need a 20pt reduction and lower costs to buy more PKs.

Battlewagonz need a 20point reduction in price, or come standard with 4 Big Shootas/Rokkitz and a Kannon that can be upgraded.

Mork/Gork need to be completely reworked, as do the walker rules in general. They are to slow to get into CC, They are to big of a point sink, they are way to easy to kill with a single shot (AP1-2) and they HAVE NO DAKKA! The Gorkanaut is the worst offender but the KMK on the Morkanaut isn't that much better.

And finally Stompa....take 300pts off that bad boy and it becomes an actual choice instead of a gimmicky POS.