Playing AM since a few months, had a game against my friends, 1000 pts 1v1v1v1, but quickly became a 1v1 and another 1v1 (other than me one shotting a dreadnought across the board). My opponent was a BA with HQ + Elites. Deployment zone was very tight, on a smaller than usual board, I came last, so even from the start I had problems. Every single unit of his had jump packs, so regardless all of the above, screening became impossible. I've been looking through forums on this, but found nothing on how to deal with fly units essentially being unscreenable. Even if I use a gakload of infantry, he comes closest he can get, makes some room for a charge, and boom, he's in. I would literally have to deploy my infantry base-to-base, and even that wouldn't help after a failed morale check.
I know this was a special situation, but got me thinking, that generally my gunline (regular Russ+Basilisk line + loads of infantry) is very much hard countered by jump pack infantry with regular sized bases. Numbers don't help, dedicated melee units don't help, I just have no clue what to do if I'm not playing in a large deployment zone.
Screen more and differently. Jump units can still only mostly charge 2D6". Lead your screen units that range from your hard shooters and they cant get in. Alternatively, screen tightly ariund your tank but leave approx a .5" gap radius around. Enemy units cant fit in to tap your russ and will only punch guardsmen. Fall back next turn and shoot fhem to kingdom come.
Check out D6 evolution on YouTube, they have an excellent screening video that demonstrates screening against a variety of units
I am looking to expand my collection of flyers a little with either a Thunderbolt, (2nd) Lightning or a Marauder destroyer. Is either of them worth it in competetive play at the moment? I saw some pictures of a guy at the US GT running two Thunderbolts but am not sure if they are worth it.
UMGuy wrote: Screen more and differently. Jump units can still only mostly charge 2D6". Lead your screen units that range from your hard shooters and they cant get in. Alternatively, screen tightly ariund your tank but leave approx a .5" gap radius around. Enemy units cant fit in to tap your russ and will only punch guardsmen. Fall back next turn and shoot fhem to kingdom come.
Check out D6 evolution on YouTube, they have an excellent screening video that demonstrates screening against a variety of units
Watch out for Chaplains. They have a new aura ability that allows for a 6" pile in.
Push your first screen out as far as you can to not allow the fly units in between them and your vehicles (1" from vehicles, an area slightly smaller than the fly unit's base, +1" to your screen). Then screen your screen far enough that the Fly unit can't engage them both and can't fit between them either. Use multiple squads per screen if you have to so a line isn't removed entirely by shooting. This gives you room to fall back and fire after it charges, and if it still alive, absorb another charge hopefully.
Hey Gents,
Regarding the melta versus plasma debate:
My opponent plays Dark Angels and hides his -1 to hit granting vehicle behind some cover. I feel like the only way that I can get a good shot at it is to deep strike some scions. In this case, is overcharging plasma still the best way to attack? I was thinking of using melta with the elimination protocol order.
thanks
Colonel Flashman wrote: Hey Gents,
Regarding the melta versus plasma debate:
My opponent plays Dark Angels and hides his -1 to hit granting vehicle behind some cover. I feel like the only way that I can get a good shot at it is to deep strike some scions. In this case, is overcharging plasma still the best way to attack? I was thinking of using melta with the elimination protocol order.
thanks
Remind me, is it a flat -1, or is it a -1 until you close within 12"? I'm assuming the former since you're reluctant to use plasma on it.
So we're talking hitting on 4's, wounding on 3's, rerolling. If it gets through, flat d6, no melta bonus. So a command squad full of melta has odds of doing roughly 6-7 damage average unless it's got an invuln, before cp reroll for damage.
Meanwhile plasma is doing 8 shots, odds are 1-2 guys are dying even with rerolls, and odds are you're doing probably 4 damage if I'm thinking right, since you'd reroll to hit in that instance.
Yeah, I'd say melta is probably the better choice there. The problem id argue there is your opponent will probably only fall for that once, if that. Once he realizes you plan on nuking the feth out of his critical -1 buff, he *should* screen the heck out of it to deny you doing that. Maybe that works to your advantage, but it does bring up the other issue melta has now, aka 9" deepstriking when it wants to be within 6", and can't shoot past 12".
So that would be a judgement call in my opinion, since any other target plasma is still probably superior against dark angels. For what it's worth, I still run melta on my stormtroopers too, not as much as plasma but I do run it. It's just way less flexible for the price. If GW would just swap the prices I think youd see a pretty healthy 50/50 split and there would be strong arguments for both. As it sits, melta is only superior in very select fringe cases, like your example. And even then, you're paying more per gun for a meager possible 2 or more damage. You could always roll ones for damage, as opposed to plasma which is flat damage.
Thanks for the responses. The darkshroud (I remembered the name pretty much as soon as I was done writing) gives a -1 to hit at all ranges. At least that is the way we have played it. The point of my post is that I am building some more scions, and face the question of whether to build 4 melta dudes. So the future beyond our next game is very relevant. Be that as it may, I was thinking to build the melta dudes, but then I read an earlier post by you, MrMoustaffa, regarding overcharging plasma even without the reroles on one, and I thought what difference does it really make? I mean, my friend is going to blow my deep striking scions away in the following turn anyway.
thanks
necron99 wrote: Now that we're starting to see at least one army that can DS turn 1 is anyone else taking a second look at the scout sentinel ?
Don't the new marine dreadsuit models still set up first, before scout sentinels? If so, sentinels are still pointless because those dreads are good anyways and it's a no brainer to use them to shut down pre game scout moves. Basically they can just stick a dread where they want the pod to go, and there's nothing you can do to stop it, they're golden.
necron99 wrote: Now that we're starting to see at least one army that can DS turn 1 is anyone else taking a second look at the scout sentinel ?
Don't the new marine dreadsuit models still set up first, before scout sentinels? If so, sentinels are still pointless because those dreads are good anyways and it's a no brainer to use them to shut down pre game scout moves. Basically they can just stick a dread where they want the pod to go, and there's nothing you can do to stop it, they're golden.
huh...hadn't heard about them being able to do that but you are right - I just looked it up...was thinking more about drop pods making a come back. I had like 9 back in 7th. I would think you'll be more likely to see a bunch of pods getting dusted off now. But yeah I could see people buying 2 or 3 deads to prep the landing zone as it were
Has anyone had much experience running Superheavy companies?
I've been toying with the idea for some time, both for competitive and derpy casual play. Competitively, I've been thinking something like a superheavy detachment with 3 baneblades or 2 and a Shadowsword, coupled with two basic IG batallions for competitive play a 2k, and just going whole hog in with 3 Baneblades and a Shadowsword (and only 6 CP with no screens) for more casual play.
Broadly, it seems like just running more basic units like Hellhounds and Russ Tanks in place of the superheavies will get you about 30-50% more wounds and firepower output than the Superheavies do, and they don't have invuls or any cool tricks or stratagems like Knights, so I don't feel too bad about them not being able to be locked down by close combat, but I'm curious as to what success people have had with such lists, what variants worked best and what kind of setups did you use? Any particularly bad matchups?
Vaktathi wrote: Has anyone had much experience running Superheavy companies?
I've been toying with the idea for some time, both for competitive and derpy casual play. Competitively, I've been thinking something like a superheavy detachment with 3 baneblades or 2 and a Shadowsword, coupled with two basic IG batallions for competitive play a 2k, and just going whole hog in with 3 Baneblades and a Shadowsword (and only 6 CP with no screens) for more casual play.
Broadly, it seems like just running more basic units like Hellhounds and Russ Tanks in place of the superheavies will get you about 30-50% more wounds and firepower output than the Superheavies do, and they don't have invuls or any cool tricks or stratagems like Knights, so I don't feel too bad about them not being able to be locked down by close combat, but I'm curious as to what success people have had with such lists, what variants worked best and what kind of setups did you use? Any particularly bad matchups?
As for bad matchups, I'd guess that a competitive GSC army would be a very tough nut to crack for a list based on superheavies. Mind Control, Mass Hypnosis and a bunch of rocksaw acolytes or buffed aberrants will ruin the day. In addition to it being mostly cheap infantry with no worhty targets for the big guns.
That said, a superheavy company will look awesome on the table.
Rocksaw Acolytes can charge from deepstrike on 7'' and Abberants on 6'' so then I think Morridan with defensive gunners maybe would be way to go considering additional sponsons?
So I know that the Take Cover strat was faq'd awhile back but I don't think I understand the implications of the nerf...can someone use smaller words for me
necron99 wrote: So I know that the Take Cover strat was faq'd awhile back but I don't think I understand the implications of the nerf...can someone use smaller words for me
It's been nerfed twice.
When it first dropped, all units in the codex could use it for all saves. So baneblades could take cover for a 2+ armor save. So GW realized that was dumb and made it infantry only.
But ogryn are infantry and get 4+ invuln Shields, and crusaders get stormshields, which meant using take cover got them up to a 3+ iand 2+ nvuln respectively, and pyschic barrier was a pretty easy 2+ invuln for ogryn, so GW nerfed it again.
Now, it only affects armor saves. So now the most cheesy thing you can do with it is have guardsmen with power armor tier saves taking cover in actual cover, or stormtroopers saving on 2+'s if they take cover in cover.
It should've been that way from the get go, but it lines up with the apparent GW mantra that no invulns are better than a 3+ aside from the odd relic or ability.
Vaktathi wrote: Has anyone had much experience running Superheavy companies?
I've been toying with the idea for some time, both for competitive and derpy casual play. Competitively, I've been thinking something like a superheavy detachment with 3 baneblades or 2 and a Shadowsword, coupled with two basic IG batallions for competitive play a 2k, and just going whole hog in with 3 Baneblades and a Shadowsword (and only 6 CP with no screens) for more casual play.
Broadly, it seems like just running more basic units like Hellhounds and Russ Tanks in place of the superheavies will get you about 30-50% more wounds and firepower output than the Superheavies do, and they don't have invuls or any cool tricks or stratagems like Knights, so I don't feel too bad about them not being able to be locked down by close combat, but I'm curious as to what success people have had with such lists, what variants worked best and what kind of setups did you use? Any particularly bad matchups?
Eldar casting Doom on a superheavy gives them a whole lot more utility from that one cast. And they can rinse Doomed units badly.
I only have 30 Guardsmen and once that screen went my tanks just got swamped by massed shuriken/Doom, Wraithcannons and cheap shots with Smite as the Eldar player closed the range.
With the changes to demolisher cannons I'm wondering how viable they are. The firepower is staggering now that they do a full D6 shots vs single targets. The weakness is still the short range which limits it to catachans IMO, but it is a lot of anti tank dakka. They average the same number of shots as a regular battle cannon now and hit like lascannons. I'm tempted to try them but don't see it working with Canadians
schadenfreude wrote: With the changes to demolisher cannons I'm wondering how viable they are. The firepower is staggering now that they do a full D6 shots vs single targets. The weakness is still the short range which limits it to catachans IMO, but it is a lot of anti tank dakka. They average the same number of shots as a regular battle cannon now and hit like lascannons. I'm tempted to try them but don't see it working with Canadians
Demolisher change didn't affect IG, that's space marines only. Don't take battlescribe at face value, we weren't mentioned in the marine FAQ so for the time being ours remain d3 shots base. That said we're still better than the marine ones because 2d3 is way more consistent than d6.
If we get that change though, it's definitely a good weapon. 2d6 Ap3 S10 shots with D6 damage can scare just about anything in the game, and with the Advent of T9 chaos knights the S10 is even more powerful than it used to be.
I'd argue that it'd become a no brainer tank commander for most regiments, although Catachans is an obvious one. With the vigilus formation you can move one 10" and grinding advance which gives you 34" threat radius (40 if Vostroyans) Thats very respectful for something that will punch far above it's weight class. If that happens, triple tank commanders running Hammer, Punisher, and Demolisher would be a given for most guard lists. That just covers so many bases for such a small pts investment you cant really go wrong no matter which regiment you run.
necron99 wrote: So I know that the Take Cover strat was faq'd awhile back but I don't think I understand the implications of the nerf...can someone use smaller words for me
It's been nerfed twice.
When it first dropped, all units in the codex could use it for all saves. So baneblades could take cover for a 2+ armor save. So GW realized that was dumb and made it infantry only.
But ogryn are infantry and get 4+ invuln Shields, and crusaders get stormshields, which meant using take cover got them up to a 3+ iand 2+ nvuln respectively, and pyschic barrier was a pretty easy 2+ invuln for ogryn, so GW nerfed it again.
Now, it only affects armor saves. So now the most cheesy thing you can do with it is have guardsmen with power armor tier saves taking cover in actual cover, or stormtroopers saving on 2+'s if they take cover in cover.
It should've been that way from the get go, but it lines up with the apparent GW mantra that no invulns are better than a 3+ aside from the odd relic or ability.
The cheesiest thing you can do with Take Cover is to stack Take Cover with Cover, with Psychic Barrier, on Slabshield Bullgryns. Gives you a -1+ save, so against AP -3 weapons you still get a 2+.
I didn't think you could stack cover on cover...but I'm not totally clear on what stacks and what doesn't. For instance I 3D printed a saber weapon platform searchlight. Can I give a unit +1 to hit with that on top of overlapping field of fire? My Vigilus Cadian Bassie double shooting and hitting on 2+ rerolling 1's sounds like fun (albeit expensive in CP).
necron99 wrote: I didn't think you could stack cover on cover...but I'm not totally clear on what stacks and what doesn't. For instance I 3D printed a saber weapon platform searchlight. Can I give a unit +1 to hit with that on top of overlapping field of fire? My Vigilus Cadian Bassie double shooting and hitting on 2+ rerolling 1's sounds like fun (albeit expensive in CP).
the take cover stratagem, while sharing a name, is independent of the mechanics for cover. It's kind of shame, because they could have just named it "go to ground"
necron99 wrote: I didn't think you could stack cover on cover...but I'm not totally clear on what stacks and what doesn't. For instance I 3D printed a saber weapon platform searchlight. Can I give a unit +1 to hit with that on top of overlapping field of fire? My Vigilus Cadian Bassie double shooting and hitting on 2+ rerolling 1's sounds like fun (albeit expensive in CP).
Yes, it stacks. But note that the searchlight now only applies to infantry units. You can't buff vehicles.
necron99 wrote: I didn't think you could stack cover on cover...but I'm not totally clear on what stacks and what doesn't. For instance I 3D printed a saber weapon platform searchlight. Can I give a unit +1 to hit with that on top of overlapping field of fire? My Vigilus Cadian Bassie double shooting and hitting on 2+ rerolling 1's sounds like fun (albeit expensive in CP).
Yes, it stacks. But note that the searchlight now only applies to infantry units. You can't buff vehicles.
Nope....missed that. Kinda makes it useless except for HWS units I guess. What about Rapier Laser Destroyers? Damage is a little on the random side but still 2D6 on average with a chance of 3D6 is pretty good in my book.
Regarding the Defence Searchlight:
It is nice in combination with Plasma weaponry, which can be fired safely against non-hard-to-hit units with the added +1 (and at least a bit less risky against hard to hit Units)
Furthermore (even if that is definitly not the most efficient use) conscript squads benefit a lot from unit wide +1 to hit due to their huge unit size and poor BS.
Oh yeah I saw that....meant as a separate discussion. Haven't seem them on the table much wasn't sure if it was because forge word is expensive/harder to get or if it's just plain bad. Looks like a glass cannon but for 88 points it seems very tempting.
Oh yeah I saw that....meant as a separate discussion. Haven't seem them on the table much wasn't sure if it was because forge word is expensive/harder to get or if it's just plain bad. Looks like a glass cannon but for 88 points it seems very tempting.
Oh, gotcha. The Rapier is trash, a LCHWS has better damage and the durability difference is negligible in the real world.
Is the Doomhammer currently the most versatile Baneblade variant?
I admit I've never used (nor do I own) any superheavy tank, so I don't know how they fare in practice. But the Doomhammer, despite not being one of the more iconic or unique Baneblade variants, seems to me like it has many solid advantages. Its magma cannon gives it 2d6 S10 AP-5 shots, with D6 damage. At half range (still a respectable 30 inches), it gets the melta rule, where you roll 2D6 for damage and pick the highest result. It also ignores cover, not that it matters all that much at AP -5. All in all, it appears to be a major threat to Land Raiders and Imperial Knights, without being as overspecialized as the Shadowsword. Its range of 60 inches is on the low side for a superheavy, but this will rarely ever matter except in a game of Apocalypse on a huuuge table (and even then, it won't be lacking for targets).
What sets it apart, however, is its transport capacity (25 models) and its firing deck (10 models may shoot), second only to the Stormlord's. It seems like a perfect place to stick three Heavy Weapon Squads (9 models in all) with lascannons. Heavy weapon teams count as two models each for transport capacity, but I don't believe this applies to the firing deck; according to my interpretation of the rules, all 9 models would still be able to shoot. Is that correct?
Is the Doomhammer currently the most versatile Baneblade variant?
I admit I've never used (nor do I own) any superheavy tank, so I don't know how they fare in practice. But the Doomhammer, despite not being one of the more iconic or unique Baneblade variants, seems to me like it has many solid advantages. Its magma cannon gives it 2d6 S10 AP-5 shots, with D6 damage. At half range (still a respectable 30 inches), it gets the melta rule, where you roll 2D6 for damage and pick the highest result. It also ignores cover, not that it matters all that much at AP -5. All in all, it appears to be a major threat to Land Raiders and Imperial Knights, without being as overspecialized as the Shadowsword. Its range of 60 inches is on the low side for a superheavy, but this will rarely ever matter except in a game of Apocalypse on a huuuge table (and even then, it won't be lacking for targets).
What sets it apart, however, is its transport capacity (25 models) and its firing deck (10 models may shoot), second only to the Stormlord's. It seems like a perfect place to stick three Heavy Weapon Squads (9 models in all) with lascannons. Heavy weapon teams count as two models each for transport capacity, but I don't believe this applies to the firing deck; according to my interpretation of the rules, all 9 models would still be able to shoot. Is that correct? .
You can do that, it's just not amazingly useful. If you move, the lascannons get a -1 to hit, and if you don't, you're spending three times the points to protect the lascannons as they cost.
The Stormlord wins out of the transport options because it can carry a full squad of bullgryns, which want to get closer.
The general consensus on superheavies is:
1) Shadowsword - does it's thing really well, can be kept relatively cheap without sponsons
2) Baneblade classic - good all rounder
3) Hellhammer - Arguably better main gun than the baneblade, and rewards getting stuck in with Crush 'Em
4) Stormlord - mega transport
...
Everything else is just weirdly specialized or redundant.
Regarding the Baneblade-variants and other LoW I would also like to ask a question to the more experienced players.
I'm building a Tallarn force and really like their rules for Infantry and Vehicles, but since I started building I try to get my head around IF and HOW you can make use of their rule that Lords of War can treat all their weapons as assault weapons.
So far it seems to me that one of these could work out:
1. Hellhammer with 4 x Heavy Flamer Sponsons => Move, Advance, Crush them and Fire everything up
2. Stormlord, a deck full of Special weapons (preferably Plasma/Melter) and Heavy Flamer sponsons => the same as above with the added advantage that the Special weapons users on the firing deck should be able to also fire their weapons after advancing without penalty
Has anyone ever tried this? Is this a dumb idea due to the high cost coupled with actively driving towards the enemy as fast as possible? I'm new to the hobby, and unsure if I want to invest in a LoW or keep to the smaller vehicles.
Pyroalchi wrote: HOW you can make use of their rule that Lords of War can treat all their weapons as assault weapons.
You don't. There's almost never going to be a situation where you're willing to trade -1 to hit for D6" (average 3.5", with a high chance of rolling only 1-2") of extra movement on a unit that can already move 12" without penalty. And you give up some extremely powerful bonuses to get this very weak and situational option. The Tallarn ability on LoW is effectively blank text and the only reason you'd ever have it is if you're taking a supreme command detachment to get your LoW slot and really want JSJ tank commanders in those HQ slots.
I believe its a rule for flamer equipped guys who need that inch to get into range with their 2 to 6 heavy flamer sponsons -- and maybe to make a charge possible. If your choice is flamers/no flamers or crush them!/ no charge, suddenly the change in hits from a vulcan cannon and 4 lazcannon are less crucial.
(Theoretically. IRL, I concede I don't actually have sponsons on my big tank, cause of that wierdo rule interpretation that tallarn can't put a sponson tank in off board ambush. Also cause its so many points in one target.)
Actually one would consider running Baneblade as Tallarn only to use Ambush Stratagem on it.
Currently it is the only viable option to ensure Baneblade will shoot. Baneblade is always priority target and having no inv makes it too easy to kill turn one
Also Baneblade with sponsons can be ambushed. Sponsons are not part of hull therefore can be hanging over the table edge
I thought along the line that with 12'' + 6'' advance (alongside a warlord with implacable determination) it would be possible on a 4' x 4' table to reach the first 4'' of the enemy deployment zone with a whole bunch of flamers on turn 1 (8 Heavy flamers from the sponsons + up to 20 flamers on the firing deck if you want to go crazy)
But I guess you are right, lacking an Inv the superheavy would most likely just be blown of the table before he can do that.
Gnollu wrote: Actually one would consider running Baneblade as Tallarn only to use Ambush Stratagem on it.
Currently it is the only viable option to ensure Baneblade will shoot. Baneblade is always priority target and having no inv makes it too easy to kill turn one
Also Baneblade with sponsons can be ambushed. Sponsons are not part of hull therefore can be hanging over the table edge
That’s not what the rule says. It says “no part of the model or it’s base” can be over the edge. Nothing about hull.
Random thought. Would HWT teams with lascannons be at all viable if they were semi immune to shooting? Unless GW fixes it in FAQ(so don't spend money yet for this) there just might be way. Take salamander detachment(and to hell their mono bonus). Play their heroic sacrifice stratagem to salamander character in front of HWT within 6". Unless enemy is closer to HWT than character he can't shoot at them(not even with snipers) and you obviously have plenty of stuff in front of character to ensure he won't be shot either.
Replace HWT with any other infantry model you can think off.
Well, heavy weapon squads are insanely points efficient for shooting, the trade off being they die to a stiff breeze. Problem is by taking a salamanders unit to protect them, you're spending more points, and CP, to make them more durable, which means you've now lost your cost effectiveness which was the whole point in bringing them. Especially since if someone wants the HWS gone they'll just murder the salamanders unit in question or get behind it. Any Salamanders unit tough enough to weather a round of shooting for the HWS ain't gonna be cheap.
That said, if there's a fairly cheap but insanely durable salamanders unit that has good ranged weapons, it might work. I've just not seen many salamanders rules yet. The guard would want to be cadians with an officer nearby for obvious reasons, since they could potentially be hitting on 3's and rerolling all hits and potentially all wounds depending on the target. 9 semi untargetable lascannons wouldn't be shabby.
Honestly though if this is your plan just take Ryza Kataphrons instead. They do far more damage than HWS can, have more strategems that help them, and are more durable for when the marines finally die.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Well, heavy weapon squads are insanely points efficient for shooting, the trade off being they die to a stiff breeze. Problem is by taking a salamanders unit to protect them, you're spending more points, and CP, to make them more durable, which means you've now lost your cost effectiveness which was the whole point in bringing them. Especially since if someone wants the HWS gone they'll just murder the salamanders unit in question or get behind it. Any Salamanders unit tough enough to weather a round of shooting for the HWS ain't gonna be cheap.
Well that salamander provides protection to all infantry within 6" that is further to enemy than salamander so not just hwm. Secondly salamander wil' be character so your front line(you do have screens don't you?) means he won't be able to shoot at the salamander screening rest of the units.
To shoot at the units protected by salamander he either needs enough snipers to kill that hero or first wipe out all units closer to him than salamander hero. Until that salamander and units he cover are 100% immune to shooting.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Well, heavy weapon squads are insanely points efficient for shooting, the trade off being they die to a stiff breeze. Problem is by taking a salamanders unit to protect them, you're spending more points, and CP, to make them more durable, which means you've now lost your cost effectiveness which was the whole point in bringing them. Especially since if someone wants the HWS gone they'll just murder the salamanders unit in question or get behind it. Any Salamanders unit tough enough to weather a round of shooting for the HWS ain't gonna be cheap.
Well that salamander provides protection to all infantry within 6" that is further to enemy than salamander so not just hwm. Secondly salamander wil' be character so your front line(you do have screens don't you?) means he won't be able to shoot at the salamander screening rest of the units.
To shoot at the units protected by salamander he either needs enough snipers to kill that hero or first wipe out all units closer to him than salamander hero. Until that salamander and units he cover are 100% immune to shooting.
Have we got an official picture of the strategems showing it works with characters? Because even if that does work, that seems pretty much guaranteed to get faq'd. Granted GW doesn't always FAQ the gamey rules in the 2 week FAQ but that one seems pretty obviously unintentional. Otherwise we're back to 7th ed invisibility level shenanigans.
I dunno, maybe I'm naively optimistic but I don't think GW was stupid enough to deliberately make invincible infantry an option for salamanders. Like I believe you mentioned earlier, I wouldn't even bother building a list with this in mind just yet because odds of it working this way for long are low. Odds are it will be non characters infantry only, which means using it with something like centurions or stormshields terminators. Stuff that would still be useful because you now need far more powerful AT weapons to chew through them and get to the yummy HWS, but not the end of the world.
It's totally broken until it gets a FAQ. The character being sacrificed can just hide out of LOS so no snipers. If a 2nd character in phobos armor infiltrates out of LOS they will be the closest model and immune to indirect fire because they are a character. If cheesed to the max an entire army can be set up where nothing can shoot at it.
Gnollu wrote: Actually one would consider running Baneblade as Tallarn only to use Ambush Stratagem on it.
Currently it is the only viable option to ensure Baneblade will shoot. Baneblade is always priority target and having no inv makes it too easy to kill turn one
Also Baneblade with sponsons can be ambushed. Sponsons are not part of hull therefore can be hanging over the table edge
That’s not what the rule says. It says “no part of the model or it’s base” can be over the edge. Nothing about hull.
Yup doesnt matter though as the baneblade with sponsons is less than 7" wide so can deploy side ways with Ambush
Gnollu wrote: Actually one would consider running Baneblade as Tallarn only to use Ambush Stratagem on it.
Currently it is the only viable option to ensure Baneblade will shoot. Baneblade is always priority target and having no inv makes it too easy to kill turn one
Also Baneblade with sponsons can be ambushed. Sponsons are not part of hull therefore can be hanging over the table edge
That’s not what the rule says. It says “no part of the model or it’s base” can be over the edge. Nothing about hull.
Yup doesnt matter though as the baneblade with sponsons is less than 7" wide so can deploy side ways with Ambush
I believe the FAqd this. the sponsons dont count as far as the"Hull"
I have a theory. GW introduced the Ironstone-effect (reduce damage by one to minimum one) as a way to create more difference between anti elites weapons (several shot, damage 2 and 1d3) and anti tank weapons (few shots, damage 3 and 1d6). And I believe we will see more similar effects in the future.
What do you think?
And how common does the ironstone-effect have to be to make melta a good choice over plasma when building allcomers lists? Lascannons over battlecannons?
Mellon wrote: I have a theory. GW introduced the Ironstone-effect (reduce damage by one to minimum one) as a way to create more difference between anti elites weapons (several shot, damage 2 and 1d3) and anti tank weapons (few shots, damage 3 and 1d6). And I believe we will see more similar effects in the future.
What do you think?
And how common does the ironstone-effect have to be to make melta a good choice over plasma when building allcomers lists? Lascannons over battlecannons?
Its possible. Given the fact that all marine models are 2+ wounds (except the old stuff). Im starting to get tired of all the marine releases and concerned Codex creep is starting to become a thing.
What would guard trait be? Sloped armor: reduce damage by 1 on multi-wound weapons?
Mellon wrote: I have a theory. GW introduced the Ironstone-effect (reduce damage by one to minimum one) as a way to create more difference between anti elites weapons (several shot, damage 2 and 1d3) and anti tank weapons (few shots, damage 3 and 1d6). And I believe we will see more similar effects in the future.
What do you think?
And how common does the ironstone-effect have to be to make melta a good choice over plasma when building allcomers lists? Lascannons over battlecannons?
The problem with that is that it just makes damage 1 weapons with mid-range AP the best weapons in the game. Space marine heavy bolters, for example, are AP-2, str5... and are now one of the best anti-tank weapons in the game because they have just enough AP to force an inuln save, and just enough strength the wound on 5's instead of 6's. Firing at T8 targets, I'd rather have more shots from a SM heavy bolter than from a Tank Commander. The only difference between the two against an Ironstone buffed tank is that the heavy bolter wounds on a 5+ instead of a 4+, and the battle cannon has a 1/3 chance to deal 2 damage per hit. Not worth the cost premium. It's a sad state of affairs when anti-infantry weapons like that are better against vehicles than dedicated anti-tank weapons.
So does this mean that we're going to see more use out of stuff like punisher cannons? Because they're not great for AT but when none of our weapons are really gonna do anything more than one damage may as well just throw as many shots as possible at them.
MrMoustaffa wrote: So does this mean that we're going to see more use out of stuff like punisher cannons? Because they're not great for AT but when none of our weapons are really gonna do anything more than one damage may as well just throw as many shots as possible at them.
Possibly. When shooting at an Executioner with an Ironstone buff....
Punisher =
40 shots * .66 to hit *.33 to wound * .33 unsaved * .84 get past FNP = 2.41 damage.
Battle Cannon =
8 shots * .66 to hit * .5 to wound * .66 unsaved * 1.333 average damage * .84 get past FNP = 1.94 damage
The punisher cannon is a better weapon to kill Executioners with than the battle cannon now.
Jesus that is depressing. I really hope that gets faqd to take at least one of those out. Knocking off one damage or just cutting it in half I can deal with. A single dread is gonna be harder to drop than a knight
At least with Knights, every point of damage you do is pretty much permanent. They really don't have a way to repair. I mean sure, you can use AdMech allies, and if you make the AdMech guy your warlord and use a stratagem, you can heal 4 wounds per turn, max. That's spending a LOT of points to do it.
Iron Hands, their primary buff character can heal for 6 wounds for 1 extra CP per turn, and a librarian can heal for D3 more. So if you fail to one shot one of these vehicles, they'll just instantly repair back up to full health and you're wasting your time.
Some madman just FAQ'd the Demolisher cannon to d6 shots. Its official now, Demolisher Russe's are insane anti armor now. I apologise for not having faith we'd get the buff
Lol... looking at the Leman Russes it is kind of funny that they decided to buff the Demolisher... makes the Vanquisher and Eradicator even more pointless competetively in my opinion
So Demolisher for anti knight T8+ and Punisher for horde. Battle cannon for range anti tank? Im really liking Tallarn Demolishers to get the extra move to get in range and still get Grinding Advance.
Vostroyan Demolishers (with 30" range) can be pretty good also. Tallarn is better for shoot and hide shenanigans.
At least in my area, there is a trend leaning to more heavily terrain loaded tables. In a LOS blocking environment, a quite short ranged gun is not a big liability.
So what would you put on a Tallarn demolisher? My first instinct is would be las/bolter and stubber. Heavy terrain could make meltas more useable I guess. Or three bolters to save some points.
Trickstick wrote: So what would you put on a Tallarn demolisher? My first instinct is would be las/bolter and stubber. Heavy terrain could make meltas more useable I guess. Or three bolters to save some points.
If you're hunting armor may as well take multi meltas and Las but I feel like that's crazy overkill. I mean, what target is surviving a Demolisher cannon and two multimeltas and a lascannon? Because that's gonna be a tank commander with some rerolls. Maybe if you're dead set on sponsons just something anti infantry to keep it safe but honestly I'd keep them cheap. They're gonna be close, they're gonna get charged and take fire, no point in making them more expensive when the points you put into other weapons go a good way to another tank.
I could see demolishers being good as basic leman Russe's, using your commanders for the mandatory hammer and probably punishers or tank commander Demolishers. A basic demolisher is a little cheaper and isn't affected much by the change from bs3 to 4. It will overkill many targets as is, and can gang up on anything it can't. Itll draw a hell of a lot of fire which buys the tank commanders time, and is still a points efficient brick.
How exactly you use them depends on regiment, but it'll mostly boil down to "shove brick down throat, repeat".
I'll tell you one thing, Catachan Demolishers spam will be one hell of a ride. Oh I hit you on 6's, that's cool, I reroll both shot amounts on the demolisher cannon, and I only really need to hit you once or twice to ruin your day. And even if you run into hordes, you just need a punisher or two and your golden. Staple that onto a straken/priest melee mob of guardsmen and you've got a good time in the making. You can outrun some guardsmen and a couple tanks, but you can't outrun something like 10 tanks and a 100 guardsmen charging across the table
Spoiler:
so not quite 100 guardsmen and 10 tanks but you get the basic idea. I'm sure there's a way to get Harker in too.
I think the Tallarn or Voystroyan would beat out catachan in this regards. the Range factor is really limiting on the Demolisher. Dont forget Vigilus strat to move them at full and still shoot twice as well.
I think HB will still be the way to go on sponsons. If they do get charged your getting more shots.
I don't think the Demolisher change really makes it a game-changer. Yes, it makes them something to consider rather than the pointless junk they used to be, but honestly, you really do not want to close in at 24'' range.
Our infantry have hit rock bottom, honestly. There's no point in strategizing around them being a capable force that can drive off enemy troops or elites because between Conscripts being unreliable with orders and with combined squads ceasing to exist (impractical strategem aside), its difficult to get enough FRFSRF shots to do the job. You need four squads of infantry and two commanders just to have enough FRFSRF lasgun shots roughly to kill a single basic Custodes, generously assuming you're in the ideal rangeband with every single model, that it doesn't have the FNP banner effect, and that you haven't taken any casualties yet. Veterans in a Chimera are no longer an efficient choice either since they don't even use up mandatory troops slots anymore.
On the melee side of things, things aren't that much better. They're maybe just okay if you're playing Catachans with Straken and a Priest or something.
When I sit down and think about how to write a competitive list right now, when it comes to infantry my only concern is how much bubblewrap I need and sometimes I toy with the idea that Scions can be objective grabbers. Our infantry are only good for protecting our heavy hitters at this point on a competitive level. If your heavy hitters have to be mobile and get in the 24'' threat range, you are severely complicating the bubblewrap problem and serving your army up on a silver platter to any opponent that makes use of fast elements, assault units and deepstrikers.
The only reason I can see for taking a Demolisher Russ is if you're going to take 1 or 2 of them at most as a cost effective counter-measure to the threat of multi-wound elite deepstrikes and rambo beatstick characters that can be right on top of you in turn 2.
Edit:
And no I don't think this problem goes away just by being Vostroyans, 30'' range or not. I'm consistently having to adjust the position of my Executioners with 36'' range in my games at the moment as it is.
I'm constantly shifting position too. But not due range. As we don"t play with planet bowling balls any range beyond 30" after moving is bonus that sometimes comes to play
Mr.Omega wrote: I don't think the Demolisher change really makes it a game-changer. Yes, it makes them something to consider rather than the pointless junk they used to be, but honestly, you really do not want to close in at 24'' range.
Our infantry have hit rock bottom, honestly. There's no point in strategizing around them being a capable force that can drive off enemy troops or elites because between Conscripts being unreliable with orders and with combined squads ceasing to exist (impractical strategem aside), its difficult to get enough FRFSRF shots to do the job. You need four squads of infantry and two commanders just to have enough FRFSRF lasgun shots roughly to kill a single basic Custodes, generously assuming you're in the ideal rangeband with every single model, that it doesn't have the FNP banner effect, and that you haven't taken any casualties yet. Veterans in a Chimera are no longer an efficient choice either since they don't even use up mandatory troops slots anymore.
On the melee side of things, things aren't that much better. They're maybe just okay if you're playing Catachans with Straken and a Priest or something.
When I sit down and think about how to write a competitive list right now, when it comes to infantry my only concern is how much bubblewrap I need and sometimes I toy with the idea that Scions can be objective grabbers. Our infantry are only good for protecting our heavy hitters at this point on a competitive level. If your heavy hitters have to be mobile and get in the 24'' threat range, you are severely complicating the bubblewrap problem and serving your army up on a silver platter to any opponent that makes use of fast elements, assault units and deepstrikers.
The only reason I can see for taking a Demolisher Russ is if you're going to take 1 or 2 of them at most as a cost effective counter-measure to the threat of multi-wound elite deepstrikes and rambo beatstick characters that can be right on top of you in turn 2.
Edit:
And no I don't think this problem goes away just by being Vostroyans, 30'' range or not. I'm consistently having to adjust the position of my Executioners with 36'' range in my games at the moment as it is.
Why do combined squads cease to exist now? And our FRFSRF still does the same damage it has been doing. Are you just playing against a lot of new marine lists or something?
Custodes also are simply not going to be killed by lasgun fire, they also cost 50 pts/model (minimum) so bring out your plasma and heavy weapons. This isn't a "guard squads are worse" problem, it's a problem of shooting at literally the worst target for your weapons. You'll do more damage to a Knight than a custodes biker with lasguns because of their 2+ saves.
Mr.Omega wrote: I don't think the Demolisher change really makes it a game-changer. Yes, it makes them something to consider rather than the pointless junk they used to be, but honestly, you really do not want to close in at 24'' range.
Our infantry have hit rock bottom, honestly. There's no point in strategizing around them being a capable force that can drive off enemy troops or elites because between Conscripts being unreliable with orders and with combined squads ceasing to exist (impractical strategem aside), its difficult to get enough FRFSRF shots to do the job. You need four squads of infantry and two commanders just to have enough FRFSRF lasgun shots roughly to kill a single basic Custodes, generously assuming you're in the ideal rangeband with every single model, that it doesn't have the FNP banner effect, and that you haven't taken any casualties yet. Veterans in a Chimera are no longer an efficient choice either since they don't even use up mandatory troops slots anymore.
On the melee side of things, things aren't that much better. They're maybe just okay if you're playing Catachans with Straken and a Priest or something.
When I sit down and think about how to write a competitive list right now, when it comes to infantry my only concern is how much bubblewrap I need and sometimes I toy with the idea that Scions can be objective grabbers. Our infantry are only good for protecting our heavy hitters at this point on a competitive level. If your heavy hitters have to be mobile and get in the 24'' threat range, you are severely complicating the bubblewrap problem and serving your army up on a silver platter to any opponent that makes use of fast elements, assault units and deepstrikers.
The only reason I can see for taking a Demolisher Russ is if you're going to take 1 or 2 of them at most as a cost effective counter-measure to the threat of multi-wound elite deepstrikes and rambo beatstick characters that can be right on top of you in turn 2.
Edit:
And no I don't think this problem goes away just by being Vostroyans, 30'' range or not. I'm consistently having to adjust the position of my Executioners with 36'' range in my games at the moment as it is.
Why do combined squads cease to exist now? And our FRFSRF still does the same damage it has been doing. Are you just playing against a lot of new marine lists or something?
Because you need to spend CP to merge infantry squads, and you can only do this once per turn. So, by turn 2 you can have a merged squad of 30 Guardsmen for 2 CP. Every casualty you take before your CP sink deathblob gets to shoot, makes it less and less worthwhile and honestly its not difficult to give 3 infantry squads FRFSRF so there is virtually no reason to aggressively use the combined squads strategem. By the time the strategem becomes meaningful halfway through the game, its already too late, and you've invested a whole 3-4 CP into it that could be used far better elsewhere.
The other problem is that while FRFSRF itself strictly speaking got better from last edition, its relative effectiveness plummeted through the floor. Last edition it was rare to encounter squads where each member had more than one wound and even then, the vast majority of the time they had a 4+ save or worse. The only real exceptions were things like Grey Knight Paladins, or at the end, Custodes, and both were 50+ pt models. This meant that a blob of just grunts that hit on 4's with their rifles could usually punish heavy infantry because with just 90 shots, you would get 45 hits, 15 wounds, resulting in 5 dead regular MEQ or 2 and a bit TEQ, which would severely hurt either unit.
This edition, hobbitmarines with 1 wound are rarer, elite assault infantry commonly have multiple wounds and high saves, and at the high end, they get so many wounds that is futile to expect FRFSRF to make a dent. Take a squad of Allarius Custodians. 4 wounds a piece, 2+ save. Lets say you had the good fortune by some elaborate miracle to get 30 fresh guardsmen in 12'' range, and another fresh 20 outside that bracket from a blob of 50, all with FRFSRF. That translates as 140 shots, turning into 70 hits, 23 wounds, and 3.89 unsaved wounds. Therefore you'll kill one of them if your luck is average. If they have the FNP banner, you'll be doing even less wounds. Otherwise, that would be barely 2 dead Terminators, which can now cost as little as 33 points iirc.
Compare that to Tank Commander in a regular Leman Russ. 2D6 shots, averaging 7, resulting in 4.62 hits, 3 wounds, and 1.5 unsaved wounds that do an average of 2 damage each, which creates a near equal damage output at 170 pts, vs the minimum cost of the infantry at 260 (5 IS + 2 Commanders + Inspired Tactics [1cp]). This is before you even consider re-rolls from the Cadian doctrine and orders and other things, which you will probably have with the tank commander. Even with Cadian infantry on the opposite hand, you need to move most of those infantry to get the extra FRFSRF shots from the 12'' band, whereas the tank will not have to move most likely.
So what you have is a 260 pt infantry combo that requires set-up, significant points and maybe CP investment, prayer to the almighty, that barely hinders elite infantry that land right on top of you. Assuming that you don't take significant infantry losses from the elite infantry shooting (unlikely) or other sources. This also fails to account for the 30-35 pt Commissar tax or the 2CP Commissar tank tax to keep all those infantry from taking heavy morale losses.
Its not that you shouldn't take them, because 2 Commanders, Commissars and 5+ infantry squads is still a neccessary investment for most Guard lists to meet force org requirements and to have bubblewrap for the important things. Its just that unlike in the past, they're not going to do much work. A list that tries to spam Guardsmen and their required force multipliers isn't going to have a consistently respectable damage output, and is nowhere near as efficient as a list that uses heavy hitters as the backbone of its damage output.
Custodes don't have a FNP banner, they have a -1 to hit, +1 attack, and infantry get 5++ options. Only way to get FNP is a warlord trait on one model.
The point you're missing is that your guardsmen aren't supposed to be dropping 80 pt terminators. You need tanks and special weapons to do that...it's not a bug. And your guardsmen are there because that 237 pt unit of 3 hyper-elite infantry can kill at most 12 of them, or 48 pts of your army. Your guardsmen stop elite stuff from getting to your tanks, artillery, and heavy weapons teams...the stuff that actually does the killing by body-blocking them. That's how Imperial Guard have always worked. Run your numbers for say a squad of Ork boyz, or Acolytes or Gaunts...guardsmen exist to kill those things.
greyknight12 wrote: Custodes don't have a FNP banner, they have a -1 to hit, +1 attack, and infantry get 5++ options. Only way to get FNP is a warlord trait on one model.
The point you're missing is that your guardsmen aren't supposed to be dropping 80 pt terminators. You need tanks and special weapons to do that...it's not a bug. And your guardsmen are there because that 237 pt unit of 3 hyper-elite infantry can kill at most 12 of them, or 48 pts of your army. Your guardsmen stop elite stuff from getting to your tanks, artillery, and heavy weapons teams...the stuff that actually does the killing by body-blocking them. That's how Imperial Guard have always worked. Run your numbers for say a squad of Ork boyz, or Acolytes or Gaunts...guardsmen exist to kill those things.
Actually, that minimum size unit can kill a maximum of 21 Guardsmen once you take into account shooting from their grenade launchers. But the main problem is that even one Custodian being left alive is a nightmare for a Guard player because it only takes one Custodian to tie up 1-2 of your tanks/artillery during a critical phase of the game. So even a minimum size squad can present a massive threat.
Adding in special weapons makes little difference. 5 BS4+ Plasma guns turns into 5 hits, 3.3 wounds, 1.65 unsaved wounds, which sometimes will kill one extra Custodian IF the lasguns rolled average and also killed one. . Now you've invested another 35-60 pts in your infantry by giving every squad a plasma gun, which might not ever get to fire in other match-ups.
Also, I'd like to again point out that the example I gave was an ideal, perfect example that assumes no positioning problems and no casualties. Even then the damage output and deterrent impact is pitiful.
You seem to have basically repeated the conclusion I made - that you need the heavy hitters to kill them. Which again, draws us to the inevitable conclusion that our infantry can't consistently deal with enemy infantry. So like I said, outfitting them under the expectation that they'll pull their weight and have a respectable damage output is pretty pointless, because if you keep them simple and cheap as bubblewrap, those extra points can go into your points pool for heavy hitters and be consistently useful instead.
Yes, Guardsmen kill Boys, Acolytes and Gaunts, but then so does the 2pt storm bolter mounted on my tanks, and pretty much everything else. The minimum bubblewrap setup will offer a decent amount of counter-punch against them, but you're always taking that anyway so you don't lose easily, so what's your point? The existence of Boys, Acolytes and Gaunts does little to justify putting extra points into outfitting your infantry for anti-infantry duty.
greyknight12 wrote: Custodes don't have a FNP banner, they have a -1 to hit, +1 attack, and infantry get 5++ options. Only way to get FNP is a warlord trait on one model.
The point you're missing is that your guardsmen aren't supposed to be dropping 80 pt terminators. You need tanks and special weapons to do that...it's not a bug. And your guardsmen are there because that 237 pt unit of 3 hyper-elite infantry can kill at most 12 of them, or 48 pts of your army. Your guardsmen stop elite stuff from getting to your tanks, artillery, and heavy weapons teams...the stuff that actually does the killing by body-blocking them. That's how Imperial Guard have always worked. Run your numbers for say a squad of Ork boyz, or Acolytes or Gaunts...guardsmen exist to kill those things.
This. Your not going to kill a Primaris marine on steroids. Guardsmen are for screenings, objective grabbing, and kill other enemy chaff.
Our infantry have hit rock bottom, honestly. There's no point in strategizing around them being a capable force that can drive off enemy troops or elites because between Conscripts being unreliable with orders and with combined squads ceasing to exist (impractical strategem aside), its difficult to get enough FRFSRF shots to do the job. You need four squads of infantry and two commanders just to have enough FRFSRF lasgun shots roughly to kill a single basic Custodes, generously assuming you're in the ideal rangeband with every single model, that it doesn't have the FNP banner effect, and that you haven't taken any casualties yet. Veterans in a Chimera are no longer an efficient choice either since they don't even use up mandatory troops slots anymore.
So I'm not the only one who feels this way. On the tabletop, my infantry often do little more than die. Most of the time it feels like the few tanks I have on the board are doing dramatically more heavy lifting, despite me having 70+ infantry on the table (I like to play fluffy, I know my lists aren't optimal.) I feel like the loss of effectiveness in infantry is that weapons in 8th edition tend to put out a lot more shots. Like, A LOT. Despite having a ton of cheap infantry on the board, they just don't last against the sheer amount of dice being thrown.
Moving along... I need to read up on this Demolisher update. I really like the tank thematically, but prior to now it was always very expensive for what you got. I'm kind of excited to see it getting a buff.
I'm thinking of starting collecting Guard and really wanted to go with a "Valhallan" Emperor's Conclave detachment. Very specific idea here while we're on the topic of infantry, but has anyone thought of running conscripts in the front with a bunch of flamers (maybe a command squad with the heavy flamer and more regular flamers) right behind next to characters, bogging the enemy down in combat then using the Valhallan Order on the non-conscripty flamers behind to fire into the units in combat? Avoids the to-hit roll which is the only chance to harm the squad in combat. I was thinking about making an inquisition-themed Emperor's Conclave force with this strategy as its primary anti-infantry. Too much setup?
So I'm not the only one who feels this way. On the tabletop, my infantry often do little more than die. Most of the time it feels like the few tanks I have on the board are doing dramatically more heavy lifting, despite me having 70+ infantry on the table (I like to play fluffy, I know my lists aren't optimal.) I feel like the loss of effectiveness in infantry is that weapons in 8th edition tend to put out a lot more shots. Like, A LOT. Despite having a ton of cheap infantry on the board, they just don't last against the sheer amount of dice being thrown.
Moving along... I need to read up on this Demolisher update. I really like the tank thematically, but prior to now it was always very expensive for what you got. I'm kind of excited to see it getting a buff.
So you have 280 pts infantry. You shouldn't thus expect firepower of even 2 russ commander.
If you have 3+ tanks on board doing more lifting then no surprise. You have invested more points on them!
So I'm not the only one who feels this way. On the tabletop, my infantry often do little more than die. Most of the time it feels like the few tanks I have on the board are doing dramatically more heavy lifting, despite me having 70+ infantry on the table (I like to play fluffy, I know my lists aren't optimal.) I feel like the loss of effectiveness in infantry is that weapons in 8th edition tend to put out a lot more shots. Like, A LOT. Despite having a ton of cheap infantry on the board, they just don't last against the sheer amount of dice being thrown.
Moving along... I need to read up on this Demolisher update. I really like the tank thematically, but prior to now it was always very expensive for what you got. I'm kind of excited to see it getting a buff.
So you have 280 pts infantry. You shouldn't thus expect firepower of even 2 russ commander.
If you have 3+ tanks on board doing more lifting then no surprise. You have invested more points on them!
Yep, I agree. And more to the point if you're using your infantry to kill stuff you're missing the point. I use mine to fill the role of screens, objective holders and on occasion wrap transports so when the tank commanders take it out the contents go poof. Screens are an obvious tactic but a lot of armies don't have as flexible a screen as we have. We can give them orders or use strats to do crazy stuff like fall back and shoot normally or assault in the shooting phase, reroll shots, throw a ton more shooting dice. What does cult mechanicus shields do? And if I'm on an objectives everywhere or have multiple units on an objective you have to decide do I try to kill the troops or do I try to kill Tank Commanders? And they can be stupidly fast with move, move, move like to the tune of 19" on average. I think we have awesome troops - just need to watch for openings to exploit their advantages.
kinnairdclan wrote: I'm thinking of starting collecting Guard and really wanted to go with a "Valhallan" Emperor's Conclave detachment. Very specific idea here while we're on the topic of infantry, but has anyone thought of running conscripts in the front with a bunch of flamers (maybe a command squad with the heavy flamer and more regular flamers) right behind next to characters, bogging the enemy down in combat then using the Valhallan Order on the non-conscripty flamers behind to fire into the units in combat? Avoids the to-hit roll which is the only chance to harm the squad in combat. I was thinking about making an inquisition-themed Emperor's Conclave force with this strategy as its primary anti-infantry. Too much setup?
As a guy who runs Valhallans, the flamer is a terrible option because it's not going to kill much in combat with conscripts that the conscripts can't drag down with weight of dice. You're getting d6 Bolter shots, whoop de Doo. A priest near even a half strength conscript unit probably does more.
You want something like plasma for firing into combat. You want a weapon that'll drop something like a tank or monster that the conscripts can't deal with. That or mortars that don't need to see the target and have 6x the range. Flamers will struggle to be in range and won't do much when they arrive.
Honestly I've never used the Valhallan order offensively. It has always been a reactionary order to deal with the fact that my meta consists mostly of insanely aggressive assault armies. Stuff like cadians just get tied up too easily, even with lots of guardsmen, so I needed ways to get tanks out of combat. And in those instances I never really cared if I hit the friendly unit because Valhallans don't care too much about an extra wound. I either hit the target, which is what I wanted, or I hit myself, which if I kill my unit, hooray I can now shoot the assault unit stranded in the open. So it's a win win.
Just my 2 cents but I'd back up Valhallans conscripts with SWS plasma, HWS mortars, and tanks. And even there, infantry squads do almost the same job the conscripts do, but are way more reliable and accurate.
I've been thinking about a barmy idea. Has anybody tried fitting in 3 bare-bones baneblade variants in a 1850-2000 point game (in a superheavy detachment)?
I'm thinking of taking 3 Cadian Banehammers with no sponsons. The tremor cannons put out a nice amount of firepower while also having the (pretty rare) ability to tag enemy units that want to get close to you or go to an objective and slow them right down. Firing decks would contain HWTs with mortars or ratlings. The 3 Banehammers would put me in the vicinity of 1150pts. Rest of the list would be filled mainly with infantry. I'd take a tank commander or two to trigger the overlapping fire strategem, and maybe take a company commander with the Cadian relic for a turn of buffing to wound rolls (or everything if I face chaos) if I turtle all 3 up together. Banehammers would benefit from Cadian doctrines in this setup.
Probably pretty silly/noncompetitive, but I think it would be a nasty surprise to many opponents. Really plays to the Imperial Guard archetype of a few massive tanks and swarms of light infantry, which appeals to me.
I tried this earlier as I have a shadowsword, octoblade, and Macharius Vulcan and I can tell you it may have worked early on but since knights took over the meta, you'll just get crushed. We simply don't have the stratagems or invuln saves to do anything significant. And at only BS 4, as soon as you get bracketed, it's just a big brick.
Against Chaos Knights at least one can rely on Vengeance for Cadia, that'll typically double the firepower output of most IG superheavies against such targets for a measly 1CP.
I think if you're going to really run superheavies and want them to do guaranteed work, they need to be run as Valhallans so an opponent can't just degrade them but really has to concentrate on destroying them (since they don't degrade until they've lost 20 wounds instead of 13 and even at only 4 or 5 wounds can still easily destroy many full strength units). If you've got 3 superheavies on the board, a lot of armies can bracket all 3 in one turn, but might not quite be able to concentrate enough firepower to destroy one entirely, allowing a Valhallan force to respond far more effectively than others might.
Double and triple super heavy lists are not meant to be competitive. They are gate keeper list. In some instances they can do well if you get the first turn. I remember when I had a Castellan and pulled a triple shadowsword list 1st round who went first. Outcome decided pretty quicky.
Hello all! I'm just rebooting my 40k armies for 8th edition, and I'd like to run my Rebel Grots (Heresy, I know) who use the IG rules.
I've got (roughly):
Spoiler:
lord commissar
2 x commanders
3 x 10 guardsmen with a smattering of special weapons (flamer, grenade launcher, plasma)
4 chimeras, 1 with heavy flamer, the rest heavy bolters.
priest
techpriest
5 ratlings
2 command squads
2 armoured sentinels w/ lascannons
Valkyrie, standard loadout
Valkyrie (originally used as a skytalon but it'll work alright as a normal one) with MMP's and multilaser
Hydra or Wyvern (guns are interchangeable)
I'm hoping for a game tonight, at 1250pts, which I should be able to make without having to use absolutely everything.
what advice can you give me on this? Should I run a hydra or a wyvern? What will work best in a Valkyrie? is 2 fliers excessive in 1250pts? are chimeras much good any more (thinking roll into range where the grots can get out and shoot at rapid fire).
I want to run Stormtroopers for the more shots on 6's, as it's close to dakkadakkadakka, so fits my grots theme well.
If the Hydra Autocannon shoots something that has the FLY keyword, does the stormtroopers ability trigger on a 5 or a 6? similarly, if I use superior intelligence, I assume the ability will never trigger as it is -1 to hit rolls (so the roll maxes out at 5)?
some bloke wrote: Hello all! I'm just rebooting my 40k armies for 8th edition, and I'd like to run my Rebel Grots (Heresy, I know) who use the IG rules.
I've got (roughly):
Spoiler:
lord commissar
2 x commanders
3 x 10 guardsmen with a smattering of special weapons (flamer, grenade launcher, plasma)
4 chimeras, 1 with heavy flamer, the rest heavy bolters.
priest
techpriest
5 ratlings
2 command squads
2 armoured sentinels w/ lascannons
Valkyrie, standard loadout
Valkyrie (originally used as a skytalon but it'll work alright as a normal one) with MMP's and multilaser
Hydra or Wyvern (guns are interchangeable)
I'm hoping for a game tonight, at 1250pts, which I should be able to make without having to use absolutely everything.
what advice can you give me on this? Should I run a hydra or a wyvern? What will work best in a Valkyrie? is 2 fliers excessive in 1250pts? are chimeras much good any more (thinking roll into range where the grots can get out and shoot at rapid fire).
I want to run Stormtroopers for the more shots on 6's, as it's close to dakkadakkadakka, so fits my grots theme well.
If the Hydra Autocannon shoots something that has the FLY keyword, does the stormtroopers ability trigger on a 5 or a 6? similarly, if I use superior intelligence, I assume the ability will never trigger as it is -1 to hit rolls (so the roll maxes out at 5)?
Chimeras unfortunately aren't terribly productive in the current edition, neither are Valkyries really, they don't really bring much killing power to the table and aren't bringing a whole lot of utility either for what they cost.
Between the Hydra or Wyvern, go with the Wyvern.
I believe the Hydra would trigger Stormtroopers on a 5+ against Fly targets, but I'd probably still take the Wyvern.
Vaktathi wrote: Chimeras unfortunately aren't terribly productive in the current edition, neither are Valkyries really, they don't really bring much killing power to the table and aren't bringing a whole lot of utility either for what they cost.
Between the Hydra or Wyvern, go with the Wyvern.
I believe the Hydra would trigger Stormtroopers on a 5+ against Fly targets, but I'd probably still take the Wyvern.
ended up being 1500pts, I ran Armageddon as tempestus can't be chosen as a regiment.
It went very badly. I was facing ultramarines with 2 repulsors, one anti-tank and the other anti-infantry, with a lieutenant and a chapter master behind them to give them all the rerolls.
I conceded turn 5, as he had a lot left and I had 2 conscripts and a commissar.
Chimeras were indeed rubbish, the multilaser I've found is so unabatingly meh, I will be replacing them with heavy bolters for the next game!
Valkyries were slightly less meh, but there's not a lot of firepower in there - heavy weapons teams will probably do better here. I'll be scrounging myself some 60mm bases and making me some lascannons!
Ratlings were poorly positioned, but getting a 4+ save in cover with a T2 dude is just appalling. they died when someone looked at them.
2 units of 20 conscripts put out a decent amount of firepower, and with a lord commissar behind them they were quite difficult for the enemy to route.
All in all, my main issues were:
lack of anti-tank - to be corrected with lascannon teams
lack of defence - methinks a baneblade variant may be on the cards
lack of options - I was boxed in with my limited army, I need some room to choose!
Lack of luck - I landed not one hellstrike missile, and one out of 5 lascannon shots hit!
I also need more of the vehicles which did work - more wyverns, and more basilisks. They did well, until they were shot. I need redundancies!
After that, it's more infantry units - 3 is simply not enough, and I don't want to keep using my 2nd edition grots as conscripts (it looks terrible!)
Chimeras were indeed rubbish, the multilaser I've found is so unabatingly meh, I will be replacing them with heavy bolters for the next game!
the amount of nerfs multilater has got is ridiculous.
Valkyries were slightly less meh, but there's not a lot of firepower in there - heavy weapons teams will probably do better here. I'll be scrounging myself some 60mm bases and making me some lascannons!
Just remember to put the lascannons into infantry squads. Not in 3 lascannon teams.
some bloke wrote: ended up being 1500pts, I ran Armageddon as tempestus can't be chosen as a regiment.
Just to clarify, because this mistake happens a lot:
You cannot pick MILITARUM TEMPESTUS as your <REGIMENT> keyword. However, you can give any custom <REGIMENT> the Storm Troopers doctrine, they just can't use any of the MILITARUM TEMPESTUS special snowflake units as though they were your custom <REGIMENT>.
E.g. A detachment of TWILIGHT SPARKLES PONY BRIGADE can have the Storm Troopers Doctrine, and have a unit of Militarum Tempestus Scions in the detachment (as per the Auxillia rules), but the Scions will gain no Regimental Benefit.
some bloke wrote: ended up being 1500pts, I ran Armageddon as tempestus can't be chosen as a regiment.
Just to clarify, because this mistake happens a lot:
You cannot pick MILITARUM TEMPESTUS as your <REGIMENT> keyword. However, you can give any custom <REGIMENT> the Storm Troopers doctrine, they just can't use any of the MILITARUM TEMPESTUS special snowflake units as though they were your custom <REGIMENT>.
E.g. A detachment of TWILIGHT SPARKLES PONY BRIGADE can have the Storm Troopers Doctrine, and have a unit of Militarum Tempestus Scions in the detachment (as per the Auxillia rules), but the Scions will gain no Regimental Benefit.
ooh, that opens up some possibilities! Thanks for the clarification!
this codex seems a lot more complex than the Ork one! there seems no end of additional caveats!
What are people's thoughts on the Leman Russ Demolisher since the change to it's profile? My maths says it kills on average as many Primaris Marines as the Executioner (4 if Catachan Tank Commander, 6 with Plasma Sponsons and Lascannon too), but deals far, far more damage against vehicles. (Still does almost nothing against the Iron Hands Uber Leviathan with 4+/4++ 1/2 -1 damage). Also 2 points cheaper than a Battle Cannon Commander similarly equipped.
Only sticking point right now is the range. 24 inches is fairly short. I feel like you'd have to bring a minimum of 3-5 as Tank Commanders to make them work. Infantry Squads are absolutely needed as screens.
Speaking of (sorry for all the rambling), why no Plasma on Infantry Squads? Overcharged, it's got a good chance at killing a whole Primaris Marine for only 8 points. Again, my maths calculates that, on average, a Catachan Demolisher Commander and an escorting Catachan Squad with Plasma, if the squad FRFSRF, then those two combined kill 8 Primaris out of a squad of 10. So, why no Plasma?
If the range is an issue for you, take them as Vostroyan or Tallarn.
As for plasma people like to keep their infantry squads cheaps. But otherwise if you get the opportunity to use it, it could be worth it. You would also need to spam it in every squad to get a chance as using it. Often times infantry squads get cut down well before they get to shoot multiple times.
Plasma sponsons on the tank commanders is a good idea though.
Smirrors wrote: First off you are capped at 3 tank commanders.
If the range is an issue for you, take them as Vostroyan or Tallarn.
As for plasma people like to keep their infantry squads cheaps. But otherwise if you get the opportunity to use it, it could be worth it. You would also need to spam it in every squad to get a chance as using it. Often times infantry squads get cut down well before they get to shoot multiple times.
Plasma sponsons on the tank commanders is a good idea though.
Capped at 3? Where is that? Not seeing it anywhere; unless you're referring to the generalized rule of 3? (A recommended rule, but one I often build around anyways).
So, maybe 3 Tank Commanders and 3 regular Russes, all Catachan (for the innate shot reroll and Gunners Kill on Sight), Demolisher Cannon, Plasma Sponsons, and Lascannon. Catachan Infantry Squad escort with officers. Lots of points sunk into tanks, but that's a lot of damage potential, and should be enough tanks to weather incoming fire so long as you hug cover on your way to the enemy.
(I know Vostroyan gives more range, but the Catachan Shot Reroll gives higher damage potential).
Arcanis161 wrote: Speaking of (sorry for all the rambling), why no Plasma on Infantry Squads? Overcharged, it's got a good chance at killing a whole Primaris Marine for only 8 points. Again, my maths calculates that, on average, a Catachan Demolisher Commander and an escorting Catachan Squad with Plasma, if the squad FRFSRF, then those two combined kill 8 Primaris out of a squad of 10. So, why no Plasma?
Might want to re-read FRFSRF. Namely, it doesn't affect plasmaguns. I made this mistake initially too.
Arcanis161 wrote: Speaking of (sorry for all the rambling), why no Plasma on Infantry Squads? Overcharged, it's got a good chance at killing a whole Primaris Marine for only 8 points. Again, my maths calculates that, on average, a Catachan Demolisher Commander and an escorting Catachan Squad with Plasma, if the squad FRFSRF, then those two combined kill 8 Primaris out of a squad of 10. So, why no Plasma?
Might want to re-read FRFSRF. Namely, it doesn't affect plasmaguns. I made this mistake initially too.
Yep. However, 8 Lasguns doing FRFSRF deals an average of two wounds to MEQ in Rapid Fire range (though I've only seen 0 or 4+ in my gaming). Add a single overcharged Plasma shot going through and that's another Primaris gone.
Arcanis161 wrote: Speaking of (sorry for all the rambling), why no Plasma on Infantry Squads? Overcharged, it's got a good chance at killing a whole Primaris Marine for only 8 points. Again, my maths calculates that, on average, a Catachan Demolisher Commander and an escorting Catachan Squad with Plasma, if the squad FRFSRF, then those two combined kill 8 Primaris out of a squad of 10. So, why no Plasma?
Might want to re-read FRFSRF. Namely, it doesn't affect plasmaguns. I made this mistake initially too.
Yep. However, 8 Lasguns doing FRFSRF deals an average of two wounds to MEQ in Rapid Fire range (though I've only seen 0 or 4+ in my gaming). Add a single overcharged Plasma shot going through and that's another Primaris gone.
Fair enough. I'd probably use Take Aim (unless Cadian and standing still) when overcharging.
In my army as is, I feel I'm lacking any concerted firepower, all I seem to do is chip away at things. I want some oomph!
What can people recommend for a unit to do some serious damage in a single turn? I'm thinking either a unit of russes, a baneblade variant, or a unit of basilisks (2 more to bring me to 3).
In my army as is, I feel I'm lacking any concerted firepower, all I seem to do is chip away at things. I want some oomph!
What can people recommend for a unit to do some serious damage in a single turn? I'm thinking either a unit of russes, a baneblade variant, or a unit of basilisks (2 more to bring me to 3).
Tank commander with hammer of sunderance battle cannon relic, then a couple Demolisher commanders. That'll do some damage. That, or a shadowsword, are our serious damage units. Really though a lot of guard stuff is death of a thousand cuts.
In my army as is, I feel I'm lacking any concerted firepower, all I seem to do is chip away at things. I want some oomph!
What can people recommend for a unit to do some serious damage in a single turn? I'm thinking either a unit of russes, a baneblade variant, or a unit of basilisks (2 more to bring me to 3).
Tank commander with hammer of sunderance battle cannon relic, then a couple Demolisher commanders. That'll do some damage. That, or a shadowsword, are our serious damage units. Really though a lot of guard stuff is death of a thousand cuts.
I am thinking that a few leman russes will be in order. I'm also thinking of making a (let me get this right...) Banesword with a quake cannon, to do me some tank hunting. Not sure what we have to support it though. I'm wondering if a few leman russes would be able to hide it, using their shoot-then-move command, so it can shoot and then hide from return fire. I'd have to get the models and compare their sizes. I don't trust the survivability of a baneblade chassis, not in this climate!
Reason for a banesword rather than shadowsword is volume of shots = better chance of average damage. average of 7 shots with minimum 3 damage, 3.5 hits, 3 wounds, 12 damage on a normal vehicle. max potential 72 damage.
Shadowsword would be... ...6 shots... actually that seems better. 6 shots, 3 hits, 2.5 wounds (say 2 wounds), 14 damage. max potential 108 damage. yeah, definitely better!
OK, so a shadowsword then. possibly blocked in by leman russes (with long range guns) so people can't see it. maybe.
How are ya'll running your bullgryns for those that do? I just got a box to make a squad of 9 and I've been debating on going full slabshield or like 5 slabs and 4 brutes for those random ultra high AP shots from space marines.
Stus67 wrote: How are ya'll running your bullgryns for those that do? I just got a box to make a squad of 9 and I've been debating on going full slabshield or like 5 slabs and 4 brutes for those random ultra high AP shots from space marines.
I've run mine with a mix of shields and mauls plus an astropath and a priest
I tend to go with more slabs than brutes. If I ran 9, I'd probably do 6 and 3 or even 7 and 2. If the slabs are in cover, Take Cover!, or Psychic Barrier'd, the AP would have to be higher than -3 to make a difference. That's against shooting though, melee might be more reason to have those invulns.
So what are people opinions on sponsons for tanks? While I feel they are a no brainer for Tallarn, but what about other Regiments (building a Preatorien army using Mordian regiment rules even if others are better)
Also is there any viable way to use Sentinels. I really would like to include as few for theme reasons. What's the best way that they could be used and what weapons to give them?
Salted Diamond wrote: So what are people opinions on sponsons for tanks? While I feel they are a no brainer for Tallarn, but what about other Regiments (building a Preatorien army using Mordian regiment rules even if others are better)
Also is there any viable way to use Sentinels. I really would like to include as few for theme reasons. What's the best way that they could be used and what weapons to give them?
*edit for spelling/grammer*
I occasionally throw them on my tank commanders - usually plasma cannons since they are cheap. Wouldn't bother with them on leman russes as they'll be hitting on 5's on the move and 4's are bad enough.
If I take Sentinels I take the scout ones for the Go Recon strat. I put multilasers on them so they won't be a priority target and try and hide them up field somewhere and do some late game objective grabbing.
Also is there any viable way to use Sentinels. I really would like to include as few for theme reasons. What's the best way that they could be used and what weapons to give them?
Maybe the powerlifter sentinel variant? It's a forgeworld unit, that fight in melee. They are a bit expensive in points and the model is out of production at forgeworld. But they are interesting because they do something pretty unusual in an AM army. And you can mod your own!
PS: they come in units, and you can use the Crush Them stratagem on them.
I have not tried this yet, but generally I suspect all Sentinel variants could be interesting as relatively cheap, relatively sturdy CC traps. They will not kill anything in CC (except maybe the powerlifter), but in some cases (Hellhounds etc.) that might even be a good thing. For 35 points they are cheaper than a Bullgryn (to which I would compare them in this role) and while they don't have the 2+ or 4++ of those, 6 wounds, 3+/4+ sv and T5-6 are nothing to sniff at. Also in some very specific cases it can be interesting that they are vehicles and not infantry/monsters. The ability to use "crush them" was already mentioned, but furthermore this means that Knights and other giant walkers can not move over them and the Sororitas Repressor has "only" 3 and not 9 attacks. They can be healed by a strategem and Tech priests. And a quick visit to mathhammer told me that on average (!) a Knight Castelan only does 5.333 wounds in CC a turn against an armoured Sentinel, so if you manage to three point him you might (!) be able to keep him locked in CC for more than one turn.
Also (again: very situative) the Scout Sentinels can - on a board with both deploymentzones 24'' apart as some have - pull of a turn 1 charge by scout moving, normal moving, advancing (resulting in min 19 and average 21.5'') and then charging with "Crush them". At this point they are a maximum of 5'' from the enemy deployment zone, which is not very far.
Again: I have not tried this, I don't think its very competetive, but I suspect there might be some situations, were that might give you an edge when using Sentinels to just bind something in CC.
And on a last, even more situative point: if you draw the tactical mission 42 "behind enemy lines" (excuse me if it is has another name in english, I translated from my german book) you can getvictory points if you get models in the enemy deployment zone. For 1 CP you can move Scout Sentinels 18 + 3D6 inches (9 Scout move + 9 normal move + 1D6 advance + 2D6 "Go! Recon!), so an average of 28.5'' which is enough to get there. And costing only 35 points (with multilasers) it does not really hurt that much to just move them there and throw them away to get a victory point (or D3 if you pull this off more than once)
I've enjoyed using them as anti-charge roadblocks and cheap brigade fillers. Scout sentinels scouting forward to block the path from those Genestealers gave me an entire turn of free shooting. They'll probably die from whatever charged into it, and not do anything back, but at 35 points, it doesn't matter. You're in the Guard, it's the job description.
But why not just, you know, take bullgryn? Who can have stupidly high saves, and actually fight back in melee for a wee bit more points? And maybe its just me, but melee tarpits really don't help guard much unless you have something like the valhallan order (and even there, I'm only ever using it to get units out of melee). So many melee units now are designed to one shot knights or heavy hitter targets, a sentinel is a joke to them, even a few of them. And that's ignoring the fact that units like a smash captain will probably just ignore them and hunt your valuable armor anyways. Yeah, they might be able to tri point a castellan but how are you going to catch him? He moves as fast as you do, and a single arm of his can wipe a whole sentinel squad in shooting. Hell, he'll probably drop a sentinel or two just on overwatch with the sheer amount of firepower he has. I just don't see the point in the sentinel screen unless you want a narratively friendly armored company and aren't really able to use infantry as your screen. Or the fact that they look cool, I've made dumber lists for that reason. But rule of cool doesn't mean much for tactics.
Which sucks, I love the look of the sentinel and want to use them more, but it's really hard to find a genuine reason to run them from a tactical standpoint. Infantry move faster, screen better, and have better firepower. Ogryn are tougher to shift, and both orgyn and guardsmen do melee better than a sentinel can. So I don't know, only thing I can really think of is Tallarn Sentinels just functioning as mobile HWS that are harder to drop with small arms, but the cost of a sentinel with something like a lascannon is about the same as 3 heavy weapon teams that could just be spread among infantry squads to protect them. Or you know, just take some Leman Russes which will hit way harder than their weight in Sentinels and probably be tougher to shift to boot.
The scout move doesn't even work against certain lists. Like against Raven guard. What good is the free turn 1 move when your opponent can start 9" away anyways?
I want to take sentinels over bullygryn mainly for theme reasons. Sentinels fit the theme, bullygryn do not. In addition I run a Brigade Det, so I need 3 FA which are currently 3 squads of Rough Riders, and while I have never played competitively, if I were to play in a small local toury that did not allow index/legacy units I would need a substitute.
some bloke wrote: . I'm wondering if a few leman russes would be able to hide it, using their shoot-then-move command, so it can shoot and then hide from return fire. I'd have to get the models and compare their sizes. I don't trust the survivability of a baneblade chassis, not in this climate!
Not even close. Baneblade reach higher anyway. And is bloody big. And bottom of leman russ from front gives los as well. No way. Generally it's hard to block los from unit to unit with units. Ork boyz covering grots? Nope grots are smaller but still between legs etc los will be drawn.
Psykers about only defensive buff you can have. Maybe void shield generator tms building? But even if such still exists there's got to be reason thev don't show up...
I want to take sentinels over bullygryn mainly for theme reasons. Sentinels fit the theme, bullygryn do not. In addition I run a Brigade Det, so I need 3 FA which are currently 3 squads of Rough Riders, and while I have never played competitively, if I were to play in a small local toury that did not allow index/legacy units I would need a substitute.
Fair enough. I forgot brigade tax is just about their biggest draw. Although with guard usually the only time I find myself going brigade is if I plan on going soup. Otherwise it's just so easy to take 3 batallion I kind of feel stupid taking tax units when the batallions cover my needs. I want to spam hqs and troops anyways, so it's not a big sacrifice, and I can mix vigilus detachments.
If you're looking for a tax unit that fills fast attack, have you considered Hellhounds? I know their usefulness varies by regiment but they've felt well worth their points pretty much every time I've used them with my Valhallans and Catachans. If I'm gonna fill a slot, I like the unit to pull it's weight, and while a sentinel is just over a 1/3rd the points of a hellhound, I've never seen 3 of them do as much as even a single hellhound can. They're fast, draw fire, explode pretty reliably, and are a brick to help block los. Opponents don't like leaving them alone and they even kind of help screen a bit since most units don't like charging them. Plus if you're running armor they do more for armor saturation with your chimeras. Just a thought.
Hope I'm not coming across abrasive there, I've been trying to figure out a genuine use for sentinels other than as a tax unit for a while and I've just never been happy with them.
My uses are a bit biased because my usual opponent is a Tyranids player, so bigger guns are a bit more scarce and Kraken Genestealers are a real threat for a turn 1 charge if things go well for him. So if he dedicates his Tyrannofex or Exocrine or Hive Guard to shooting out 35 point sentinels... good. If not, it means those Scouted Sentinels are now in the way of his Genestealers, saving the rest of my army turn 1. He kills the sentinels, consolidates 3", and my guns light them up. Or he avoids them, and I still get a turn of shooting.
I don't take them all the time, but I think they do have good uses. Relatively tough for the points, and the scouting is good for pushing out your bubble against armies that push hard. But with any unit, it's a tool, and sometimes that tool won't be useful or less useful than others.
Although I did run 18 Tallarn Sentinels armed with lascannons in a friendly game once. That was hilariously fun.
Stus67 wrote: How are ya'll running your bullgryns for those that do? I just got a box to make a squad of 9 and I've been debating on going full slabshield or like 5 slabs and 4 brutes for those random ultra high AP shots from space marines.
I've run mine with a mix of shields and mauls plus an astropath and a priest
This. There is no need to go all in on one type unless your running smaller units. I run 5 often and even then I splash two brute shields. You could always build the models and leave the shields off and play some games until you decide what difference is important to you or not. It's been a while since I built mine, but maybe magnets are even an option?
Cleric wrote: My uses are a bit biased because my usual opponent is a Tyranids player, so bigger guns are a bit more scarce and Kraken Genestealers are a real threat for a turn 1 charge if things go well for him. So if he dedicates his Tyrannofex or Exocrine or Hive Guard to shooting out 35 point sentinels... good. If not, it means those Scouted Sentinels are now in the way of his Genestealers, saving the rest of my army turn 1. He kills the sentinels, consolidates 3", and my guns light them up. Or he avoids them, and I still get a turn of shooting.
No, he kills your sentinel, then uses Overrun to get even further up the board and then activates Adrenaline Surge to tripoint a different unit with a pile in move.
Your Tyranid buddy needs to up his game if he's just killing Sentinels turn 1 and not using them as speed boosts.
Cleric wrote: My uses are a bit biased because my usual opponent is a Tyranids player, so bigger guns are a bit more scarce and Kraken Genestealers are a real threat for a turn 1 charge if things go well for him. So if he dedicates his Tyrannofex or Exocrine or Hive Guard to shooting out 35 point sentinels... good. If not, it means those Scouted Sentinels are now in the way of his Genestealers, saving the rest of my army turn 1. He kills the sentinels, consolidates 3", and my guns light them up. Or he avoids them, and I still get a turn of shooting.
No, he kills your sentinel, then uses Overrun to get even further up the board and then activates Adrenaline Surge to tripoint a different unit with a pile in move.
Your Tyranid buddy needs to up his game if he's just killing Sentinels turn 1 and not using them as speed boosts.
This. Or tripoint the sentinel and dont kill it until your fight phase so he cant get shot.
Eh, 4cp to get into the Infantry Squad screens doesn't sound too great. Even if they tri-point and can't be shot until they kill the squad, you can make them next to worthless again. If they have another 4 cp to do that combo again, surround the screen they are tri-pointed with with a few more squads. Still can't get to your important stuff, again. So 2 turns in, they've spent 8 cp to kill your sentinel(s?), and somewhere between 2 and maybe 6 if they get really killy. So at absolute max, that's about 345 points dead at the end of turn 2 after 8 cp spent. In the meantime, move away and kill stuff, and when they run out of CP, which they should be out of or nearly out of at this point, mow them down.
This assumes that the guard has many Infantry Squads (of course they do) and know how to space for pile ins and consolidates
Cleric wrote: Eh, 4cp to get into the Infantry Squad screens doesn't sound too great. Even if they tri-point and can't be shot until they kill the squad, you can make them next to worthless again. If they have another 4 cp to do that combo again, surround the screen they are tri-pointed with with a few more squads. Still can't get to your important stuff, again. So 2 turns in, they've spent 8 cp to kill your sentinel(s?), and somewhere between 2 and maybe 6 if they get really killy. So at absolute max, that's about 345 points dead at the end of turn 2 after 8 cp spent. In the meantime, move away and kill stuff, and when they run out of CP, which they should be out of or nearly out of at this point, mow them down.
This assumes that the guard has many Infantry Squads (of course they do) and know how to space for pile ins and consolidates
I'm not so sure about how feasible it is to get that surround. A Dawn of War deployment zone is only 12" deep and the tanks are 3" wide. For the surround to work, you need to get multiple squads in blocking positions more than 4"+ around the captured unit on your turn. If you mess up even a little, they can pile in/consolidate to a point where they can spend 3 cp on your turn to fight again and wipe your reinforcements or take new hostages. At that point, their turn two becomes an all-you-can-tag buffet in your backlines as they fall back and charge through the holes they made on your turn.
If you do get that perfect surround, they then don't need to spend CP on their second turn. They'll charge 2-3 of the guard squads you used to surround, move three or four stealers 3" from the fourth squad using the charge move, kill the charge targets and take the fourth hostage with the consolidate move. Arguably, at this point, the screen has done it's job by holding out for two turns, but the stealers are still mostly alive and can comfortably threaten most of the tank/arty line and you probably don't have another forty guardsmen to throw at the problem within move move move distance.
Still feel offering up the sentinels as an easy charge target turn one is an unnecessary move. I'd rather have some bullgryn or a gallant to counter charge that first turn and just murder the stealers in combat.
There's also the issue of the stealers tearing up multiple small units in your screen almost guaranteeing the Nid player gets killed one and killed more for the first two turns of the game in ITC or a guaranteed first blood/strike outside of ITC.
So Guardsmen that can string out 25+" per squad isn't feasible to surround stealers, but stealers can tri-point those squads every time? Also, even with your example, that's now 7 cp to get into infantry squads twice, and any mess up for the genestealers is a fallback and shoot for guard, meaning dead stealers. They're also taking Overwatch (not great but it's some damage) and fight back (not great but also some damage).
Two regiments make this better, being Valhalan for the order to shoot the stealers anyway, and Catachan to make the melee fight back better.
And of course you'd rather have the Gallant. It's more than 10x the cost, of course it'd be better. That's like saying I'd rather have a Battle Cannon than a lasgun. But that wasn't the question. Bullgryn are also good, but aren't likely to kill them all, and then the Genestealers fallback/charge something else. And a single Bullgryn is 47 points.
Infantry squads keeping things off your vehicles for 2 turns is the goal of screens, yes. I'm happy with that, and the 7 cp my opponent spent is even better. If this is happening in a game, I'm likely winning.
It's also not hard to get first strike against guard. At all.
Also, "you probably don't have another 40 guardsmen" don't underestimate me friend! XD
These are not the best tools, but it is a decent use for the unit in my experience.
Cleric wrote: So Guardsmen that can string out 25+" per squad isn't feasible to surround stealers, but stealers can tri-point those squads every time? Also, even with your example, that's now 7 cp to get into infantry squads twice, and any mess up for the genestealers is a fallback and shoot for guard, meaning dead stealers. They're also taking Overwatch (not great but it's some damage) and fight back (not great but also some damage).
Two regiments make this better, being Valhalan for the order to shoot the stealers anyway, and Catachan to make the melee fight back better.
And of course you'd rather have the Gallant. It's more than 10x the cost, of course it'd be better. That's like saying I'd rather have a Battle Cannon than a lasgun. But that wasn't the question. Bullgryn are also good, but aren't likely to kill them all, and then the Genestealers fallback/charge something else. And a single Bullgryn is 47 points.
Infantry squads keeping things off your vehicles for 2 turns is the goal of screens, yes. I'm happy with that, and the 7 cp my opponent spent is even better. If this is happening in a game, I'm likely winning.
It's also not hard to get first strike against guard. At all.
Also, "you probably don't have another 40 guardsmen" don't underestimate me friend! XD
These are not the best tools, but it is a decent use for the unit in my experience.
Not saying the Nid player is going to have an easy time of it. They're just as likely to screw it up as the Guard player, but I think the Guard player has more to lose if they mess up than the Nid player.
I did not intend to have it come across that I'd rather take a Gallant than Sentinels as a one for one swap. Im saying that I'd rather take a list design approach that focuses on killing the stealers in melee than one that focuses on containing them.
I have no doubt you will have forty more guardsmen left on the board after the first forty die, but they can't all be in the same place is the point I'm trying to make. If you run 120+ guardsmen it becomes harder to space them out properly and to avoid traffic jams in the deployment zone.
I am looking to build a second Guard army. Jungle themed and air heavy (as opposed to my current winter- themed armour heavy army). Think of slough-hat jungle fighters rapping from Valkyries and an air wing of thunderbolts + a vulture gunship.
Now since I mainly play tanks I know nothing about this type of AS army. Which units to use, msu or elite infantry etc? Should I go Elysian, Tallarn or choose another regiment instead? And is it possible to create a 2000 pts army with this theme which is not blown from the table in the current meta?
Singleton Mosby wrote: I am looking to build a second Guard army. Jungle themed and air heavy (as opposed to my current winter- themed armour heavy army). Think of slough-hat jungle fighters rapping from Valkyries and an air wing of thunderbolts + a vulture gunship.
Now since I mainly play tanks I know nothing about this type of AS army. Which units to use, msu or elite infantry etc? Should I go Elysian, Tallarn or choose another regiment instead? And is it possible to create a 2000 pts army with this theme which is not blown from the table in the current meta?
I'm currently building a Catachan themed list in this same vein. I've only played a couple games, but just remember you'll need boots on the ground to not get tabled. So no matter how cool your theme, some guys will need to start the game on foot and survive or you'll be tabled immediately. Also be warned most of our air units aren't very good.
My plan was a ton of infantry squads with straken and priest support, with SWS, CCS, and vets dropping from Valkyries while an avenger and a couple vultures provided fire support. All the valks got hellstrikes and lascannons since I already have a ton of anti infantry. I don't think it's super competitive, you struggle against armor, but it's fun to play at least. Infantry swarm helps pin things in place and all the air support can rapidly redeploy to deal with tough spots. Problem is all the new marine lists just eat guardsmen for breakfast so I have a feeling the infantry would be wiped in short order unless you really commit. It's why I picked Catachan, it at least have me some melee punch the list otherwise lacks. Bullgryn would be a good choice too.
Only other regiments I really see doing aircav are Stormtroopers, steel legion, and maybe Vostroyans. I chose Catachans for theme but their abilities don't do much, it's mainly the characters that make it work. Steel legion can drop out and doubletap plasma out to 18 making landings easier, Stormtroopers can drop turn 1 with it as well as get the vigilus detachment, and Vostroyans just make use of range and being able to shoot even if tied up.
While I have not played them in 8th yet, I heavily played Elysians in past editions and I agree with MrMoustaffa. In past editions Vendettas, Vultures, and suicide MM Drop Sentinels could deal with tanks, but with 8th I see it being a tougher fight. And don't even get me started on the new Marine BS (Inceptor's, 3 jump pack models putting out 18 shots with assault HB's?!?!). Elysians taught me that guard drop infantry will need to hit hard and fast for any chance. Expect to take severe casualties. With this in mind, If you want to jump out of Valkyries, I'd consider Steal Legion for the extra distance for rapid fire "might" help, or Catachan for the strength boost as you will get charged being so close. Too bad that Valkyries don't benefit from doctrines as both would help.
And going this route remember the following Elysian motto.
"Elysians: For when you absolutely, positively, must have 100% casualties"
I’ve been running Tallarn Russes with Demolisher cannons and they’re pretty great. Flat D6 shots makes them much better now, and Tallarns can reach the enemy nearly anywhere on the table now with their order. I’ve been thinking of trying them as Catachans next though. They wouldn’t have as much reach and non turret weapons would suffer for a turn, but that could pack a good punch, maybe with plasma sponsons.
Badablack wrote: I’ve been running Tallarn Russes with Demolisher cannons and they’re pretty great. Flat D6 shots makes them much better now, and Tallarns can reach the enemy nearly anywhere on the table now with their order. I’ve been thinking of trying them as Catachans next though. They wouldn’t have as much reach and non turret weapons would suffer for a turn, but that could pack a good punch, maybe with plasma sponsons.
That's my current plan ATM. I'll need to get at least a couple more though as, while I've able to maneuver my current one to not be killed Turn 1, it's still focused enough to be on its last bracket.
Badablack wrote: I’ve been running Tallarn Russes with Demolisher cannons and they’re pretty great. Flat D6 shots makes them much better now, and Tallarns can reach the enemy nearly anywhere on the table now with their order. I’ve been thinking of trying them as Catachans next though. They wouldn’t have as much reach and non turret weapons would suffer for a turn, but that could pack a good punch, maybe with plasma sponsons.
That's why I'm running mine in a Emperor’s Fist Tank Company Supreme Command detachment. The tank commander demolisher can move 10" pay 1CP and still fire the turret twice. That's a 34" threat range turn 1.
Badablack wrote: I’ve been running Tallarn Russes with Demolisher cannons and they’re pretty great. Flat D6 shots makes them much better now, and Tallarns can reach the enemy nearly anywhere on the table now with their order. I’ve been thinking of trying them as Catachans next though. They wouldn’t have as much reach and non turret weapons would suffer for a turn, but that could pack a good punch, maybe with plasma sponsons.
That's why I'm running mine in a Emperor’s Fist Tank Company Supreme Command detachment. The tank commander demolisher can move 10" pay 1CP and still fire the turret twice. That's a 34" threat range turn 1.
Tallarn would make that even better. Would give a 40" threat range to one Demo and 34" to the rest. In addition it would still be able to fire all it's sponson and Hull weapons to full effect as well. HB sponsons and a Heavy stubber are just 18 points but gives (with Hull HB) 12 x BS3 str 4-5 attacks.
To put that in perspective that is almost as much firepower as 5 Mortars. Across 3 TCs that is almost 15 Mortars (5 HW squads) for 54 points. When you consider that Demo's always want to move Tallarn becomes such an obvious choice.
I like Demo's because they are (along with Punishers) the only turret weapons that can actually draw attention away from your Hammer of Sunderance TC.
Agreed that gets you even more range but I play straight Cadian specifically so I can take the Lost Relic of Cadia when playing against chaos and using the Overlapping Fields of Fire strat which is awesome sauce in so many situations...especially when you can use one of your TCs to cause the wound followed by a barrage of bassies who are now hitting on 3's rerolling 1's. Just too good.
Badablack wrote: I’ve been running Tallarn Russes with Demolisher cannons and they’re pretty great. Flat D6 shots makes them much better now, and Tallarns can reach the enemy nearly anywhere on the table now with their order. I’ve been thinking of trying them as Catachans next though. They wouldn’t have as much reach and non turret weapons would suffer for a turn, but that could pack a good punch, maybe with plasma sponsons.
With specifically demolishers imo extra speed is better than extra hit catachan gives.
Pretty much the choice between Tallarn, Vostroyan, and Catachan is whether you want movement, range, or damage, respectively. I'm trying out Catachan first myself, figuring the extra damage is worth the extra time to get into position, but another Guard player in my area is using Vostroyan.
What other successes/shortcomings are other people finding with their Demolishers? Also, how many are people taking? I'm seeing a lot of people taking the Hammer of Sunderance, but wouldn't another Demolisher TC (if already taking 1-2) be better as that would be more for the opponent to deal with? Or are people of the opinion that 2 more points and longer range is better than the potential extra damage? (In other words, would you take 3 Demo TCs or 2 and a TC with the relic?)
Thing about relic battlecannon is that flat 3 can be superior to d6. Yes average goes to 3 rather than 3.5 but you'll be happy about that flat 3 when you come against 3 wound models where demolisher gives essentially extra 5+ save for him.
Ability to roll 6 is averaged out by rolling 1 and there are times you don't even out. Rolling 6 is irrelevant if opponent has 3 wounds!
Add to this range and don't see need for 3rd demolisher. 1 or 2 is max i would take anyway
Im trending towards at least one hammer and one demolisher, with the third TC a Demolisher as well. My local meta is a ton of hyper aggressive assault armies with knights, vehicles, and monsters, so the range is a non issue and I need all the damage I can get. Nobody here runs hordes but me so punisher doesn't do a lot but if I go elsewhere I bring a few punisher cannons. However I'm finding vultures do the same job and usually better, so I don't really run TC Punishers anymore. They're fun, don't get me wrong, but they're nowhere near as mobile to deal with threats, and vulturess can cheekily snipe characters sometimes. Losing the +1bs against fly units does hurt though.
As Catachans and Valhallans my guardsmen and vultures have no issue dealing with whatever infantry I tend to face so I figure let the tanks do as much heavy lifting as they can. Between tank commanders, hellhounds, basilisk, and vulture I feel a lot of bases are covered pretty well.
If you don't own a vulture, I think a strong argument could be made for punisher/Demolisher/hammer but since I own two vultures punisher leman Russe's don't really do much for me.
tneva82 wrote: Thing about relic battlecannon is that flat 3 can be superior to d6. Yes average goes to 3 rather than 3.5 but you'll be happy about that flat 3 when you come against 3 wound models where demolisher gives essentially extra 5+ save for him.
Ability to roll 6 is averaged out by rolling 1 and there are times you don't even out. Rolling 6 is irrelevant if opponent has 3 wounds!
Add to this range and don't see need for 3rd demolisher. 1 or 2 is max i would take anyway
Well let's also not forget that the Demolisher is Strength 10 while the relic is still Strength 8. More will go through against most big things, like Knights, Leviathan Dreads, and other vehicles.
I was basing the idea of having 3 TC Demolishers (and possibly 3 regulars too) off of something I heard on a podcast: if you have something crucial to your strategy, take more of it. This way, your opponent can't efficiently deal with all of it. I figured that more firepower would be crucial to beating most Marine opponents.
...this same guy came back in a later podcast, stating that he only had one in his list. Given that the podcast heavily discussed RG/WS Assault Centurions and the recent IF release, and given what they said each could do, it looks as though a competitive Marine list would chew through all 3-6 tanks in a single turn.
So, I guess the moral of the story is strategy is always more complicated, and I know nothing.
tneva82 wrote: Thing about relic battlecannon is that flat 3 can be superior to d6. Yes average goes to 3 rather than 3.5 but you'll be happy about that flat 3 when you come against 3 wound models where demolisher gives essentially extra 5+ save for him.
Ability to roll 6 is averaged out by rolling 1 and there are times you don't even out. Rolling 6 is irrelevant if opponent has 3 wounds!
Add to this range and don't see need for 3rd demolisher. 1 or 2 is max i would take anyway
Well let's also not forget that the Demolisher is Strength 10 while the relic is still Strength 8. More will go through against most big things, like Knights, Leviathan Dreads, and other vehicles.
I was basing the idea of having 3 TC Demolishers (and possibly 3 regulars too) off of something I heard on a podcast: if you have something crucial to your strategy, take more of it. This way, your opponent can't efficiently deal with all of it. I figured that more firepower would be crucial to beating most Marine opponents.
...this same guy came back in a later podcast, stating that he only had one in his list. Given that the podcast heavily discussed RG/WS Assault Centurions and the recent IF release, and given what they said each could do, it looks as though a competitive Marine list would chew through all 3-6 tanks in a single turn.
So, I guess the moral of the story is strategy is always more complicated, and I know nothing.
Don't get me wrong IF shooting is good but not that good.
tneva82 wrote: Thing about relic battlecannon is that flat 3 can be superior to d6. Yes average goes to 3 rather than 3.5 but you'll be happy about that flat 3 when you come against 3 wound models where demolisher gives essentially extra 5+ save for him.
Ability to roll 6 is averaged out by rolling 1 and there are times you don't even out. Rolling 6 is irrelevant if opponent has 3 wounds!
Add to this range and don't see need for 3rd demolisher. 1 or 2 is max i would take anyway
Well let's also not forget that the Demolisher is Strength 10 while the relic is still Strength 8. More will go through against most big things, like Knights, Leviathan Dreads, and other vehicles.
I was basing the idea of having 3 TC Demolishers (and possibly 3 regulars too) off of something I heard on a podcast: if you have something crucial to your strategy, take more of it. This way, your opponent can't efficiently deal with all of it. I figured that more firepower would be crucial to beating most Marine opponents.
...this same guy came back in a later podcast, stating that he only had one in his list. Given that the podcast heavily discussed RG/WS Assault Centurions and the recent IF release, and given what they said each could do, it looks as though a competitive Marine list would chew through all 3-6 tanks in a single turn.
So, I guess the moral of the story is strategy is always more complicated, and I know nothing.
Certainly multiple threats is good but thing is the flat 3 adds so much utility that the relic battle cannon I deem automatic. I don't see 3 demolisher better than relic+2 demolisher. You still have 2 demolisher for the S10 shots but that doesn't pop up all the time. Meanwhile plenty of 3 wound infantry out there you don't want to give them extra 5+ save to survive. Like those centurions, aggressors, custodians etc.
There's reason why helverin is so bloody good. Flat dam3 being large part in that.
Does anyone here run a list that is entirely tanks? My current 40K project is close to completion, so I am looking to the future for my next 40K adventure.
My plan is to make an Imperial Guard army that has no infantry at all. I have never played Imperial Guard in any capacity; however, I love the look of Leman Russes, and I think it would be fun to have a list that is all tanks.
This is in no way intended to be competitive, so it being "good" is not a concern of mine. I just wanted to know if anyone has experience with it, if you enjoy playing it, or if you have had any negative experiences with it.
I just threw together a 1500 point list in Battlescribe that has seven Leman Russes and three Basilisks. Let me know how you feel about all tank Imperial Guard lists! Thanks!
Entirely tanks doesn't work because Knights exist, ergo every list is either Knights or tailored to kill Knights, which means Tanks without an Invulnerable save get melted off the table.
And without infantry, the enemy infantry will just reach your tanks and you won't be able to shoot anymore for the rest of the game. Basically, T2 at best is your last shooting phase of you play like this.
Yeah, even a single model reaching a tank takes it out of the game unless you can fall back and kill it with something else. Not to mention if they have anything swarmy at all, they'll control the board/objectives while pushing your tanks out.
If you're deadset on playing that for fun, I would bring at least 6-8 Punishers to try and take care of infantry before they become a problem. Also Vigilus for the field commander bonus (reroll failed overwatch) on them would be a good idea, but given that you're likely to only have 6 CP (3 base, +3 for each detachment of Spearhead or Supreme Command) makes this an investment of a third of your CP. At this point, it's less about making the list "good", and more of making sure you can actually play the game past turn 1 or 2.
If you play Mordian, tanks with Punishers getting 20 shots, mordian so hitting on 5's, Defensive Gunners strat pushing it to 4's and rerolling failed hits is pretty good, but again, lack of CP is a problem.
Good luck if you do this, let us know how it goes.
Mud Turkey 13 wrote: Does anyone here run a list that is entirely tanks? My current 40K project is close to completion, so I am looking to the future for my next 40K adventure.
My plan is to make an Imperial Guard army that has no infantry at all. I have never played Imperial Guard in any capacity; however, I love the look of Leman Russes, and I think it would be fun to have a list that is all tanks.
This is in no way intended to be competitive, so it being "good" is not a concern of mine. I just wanted to know if anyone has experience with it, if you enjoy playing it, or if you have had any negative experiences with it.
I just threw together a 1500 point list in Battlescribe that has seven Leman Russes and three Basilisks. Let me know how you feel about all tank Imperial Guard lists! Thanks!
You'll probably want a front-line (or two) of hellhounds to be the 'screen'. Then the three mandatory Russ Tank Commanders and add other artillery/tanks to taste
I’m gonna be trying a Catachan supreme command with 3 Russes, some sort of big superheavy tank and then Harker sitting in the back screaming at them to reroll 1’s. I’m thinking the basic Baneblade is the ideal chassis for rerolling numbers of shots?
I've bought myself a Sledgehammer bfg gun (amazing model). I realise it is not as effective as a tracked basilisk, but I just like the look of the thing. Now, 1d4chan guard tactics says it is possible to give orders to the Earthshaker carriage battery. How would this work? I can understand the crew can be ordered to Reroll 1's with their lasguns, but not the artillery piece as it is no infantry. Or am I wrong here?
I'm thinking of adding an Ordo Minoris Inquisitor to my Mordian list. The inquisition Requisition stratagem along with the Form Firing Line order might make for some fun character sniping.
Badablack wrote: I’m gonna be trying a Catachan supreme command with 3 Russes, some sort of big superheavy tank and then Harker sitting in the back screaming at them to reroll 1’s. I’m thinking the basic Baneblade is the ideal chassis for rerolling numbers of shots?
I hate doing this on phone, gonna have to split the answers between two replies.
Since no one has responded to you for a week, I'll do my best and start with you.
Any of the superheavies besides the Stormlord should work. Remember with the Demolisher Cannon you would need to get close, like really close. If that's your game plan, go for it.
Though, I will note the reason many like bringing Tallarn Superheavies is to ambush with them. Used correctly, that can be valuable too.
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necrontyrOG wrote: I'm thinking of adding an Ordo Minoris Inquisitor to my Mordian list. The inquisition Requisition stratagem along with the Form Firing Line order might make for some fun character sniping.
Thoughts?
Could work theoretically, just be sure to bring Plasma as the order is for "rapid fire weapons". Plasma, while making the squads more expensive than Ratlings, will increase the damage you could potentially do.
Any tips for using the ambush stratagem ? I could use it to protect a precious tank T1 but it will only fire once then. The same if I try to bring a punisher into the enemy zone / at range.
I can't bring melta weapon in short range and I don't need it for plasma.
So ?
I unfortunately do not have practical experience yet, but potential interesting candidates would include:
Hellhounds (they can drop in their optimal range and you don't have them in your own deployment zone turn 1 where they can be blown up to cause you mortal wounds)
Devil Dogs (IF you want to use them. Contrary to Leman Russ they don't loose efficiency for coming in on deep strike)
Leman Russ tanks in the Emperors Fist tank Squad (with the Strategem to double tap after moving)
Tarantula and Hydra Guns and other immobile artillery pieces (very situational, but depending on terrain, ambush allows for placing them on very inaccessible points with good LOS like on top of buildings etc. Fun fact: last time I looked the Tarantula Gun still had not the "vehicle" keyword and therefore can taken alongside other vehicles).
There are definitely more and maybe much better things, but those are the ones I have in mind.
I know I will need to get a Basilisk. With Eliminators being common, Basilisks are almost mandatory.
I'll need a 3rd Tank Commander too. However, I'm not sure if I would prefer a standard Russ or a second Demolisher. I almost want the second Demolisher for the firepower and some level of redundancy, but I already have a standard Leman Russ I can just add sponsons to. What do you guys think?
EDIT: also, any point in having Lascannon Teams at the moment? I guess you could run Cadian, but you would have to keep the squad very still. Not seeing much use overall IMHO.
Lascannon teams are useless. T3, 5+ and must be in LOS = dead very fast. At most they get 1 turn shooting, and on average you'll do ~1 wound to a T8 3+ model. All that for 78 points. Don't waist points on them. Lascannons are an IG trap.
Edit: there is one exception where I'd consider taking lascannon teams: bring in a Tallarn Stormlord via Ambush, filled with 3 lascannon HWS and 3 command squads armed with a Lascannons and Plasma Guns, supported by 2 Astropaths with Psychic Barrier and Nightshroud. On the turn you bring it in either 1) park it in cover and pop smoke to make the Stormlord -2 to hit with a '1+' save, or 2) bring it in 9" away from an enemy unit that is near an infantry squad which is within ~guaranteed charge distance, use a CP and your reserve of spiritual luck to get the Stormlord into combat, and then surround the enemy unit with the infantry squad, locking it into combat, and make sure you do not kill the enemy unit all game so your Stormlord and Lascannon teams are immune from shooting attacks all game but can themselves shoot all game. Competitiveness rating: low. Likelihood of fun: high.
I am currently building a Tempestus air-heavy list. Think of melta scions in Valkyries with vulture gunship and thunderbolt support. Add in some officers of the fleet (never seen any on the table before!) and Psykers to beef them up.
Now, my main concern is the 'boots on the ground' rule. I am not sure yet if three units of ratlings will suffice or if I should go for a tooled-up Ravenguard Eliminator detachment. They have more staying power and bring more options as well. But they are 2.5 times as expensive. What are your thoughts on this?
Singleton Mosby wrote: I am currently building a Tempestus air-heavy list. Think of melta scions in Valkyries with vulture gunship and thunderbolt support. Add in some officers of the fleet (never seen any on the table before!) and Psykers to beef them up.
Now, my main concern is the 'boots on the ground' rule. I am not sure yet if three units of ratlings will suffice or if I should go for a tooled-up Ravenguard Eliminator detachment. They have more staying power and bring more options as well. But they are 2.5 times as expensive. What are your thoughts on this?
Don’t put your meltas in Valks. Put plasma and volley una in there. Use Taurox Primes for gunboats. Get them into a nice spot and sit them there.
BaconCatBug wrote: Yeah since the nerf melta are useless out of Valks since they can't get the melta effect after a drop.
I am not running any Tauroxes. So the meltas also go on the valks. D6 damage is nothing to be shrugged at. And with rerolls and +1 to hit they can be quite effective that way as well.
BaconCatBug wrote: Yeah since the nerf melta are useless out of Valks since they can't get the melta effect after a drop.
I am not running any Tauroxes. So the meltas also go on the valks. D6 damage is nothing to be shrugged at. And with rerolls and +1 to hit they can be quite effective that way as well.
Plasma Guns can do up to 4 Damage, which is superior to D6 Damage. With +1 to hit you can't even kill yourself with overheat so that's even MORE reason to run plasma.
BaconCatBug wrote: Yeah since the nerf melta are useless out of Valks since they can't get the melta effect after a drop.
I am not running any Tauroxes. So the meltas also go on the valks. D6 damage is nothing to be shrugged at. And with rerolls and +1 to hit they can be quite effective that way as well.
Still more effective to air drop the meltas. Also run Taurox Primes.
BaconCatBug wrote: Yeah since the nerf melta are useless out of Valks since they can't get the melta effect after a drop.
I am not running any Tauroxes. So the meltas also go on the valks. D6 damage is nothing to be shrugged at. And with rerolls and +1 to hit they can be quite effective that way as well.
Plasma Guns can do up to 4 Damage, which is superior to D6 Damage. With +1 to hit you can't even kill yourself with overheat so that's even MORE reason to run plasma.
OK. Point taken. The plasmas also generate an extra shot on a 6+. Meltas don't.
Take plasma pistols on the serges or not? And what about the ratlings vs Eliminators?
BaconCatBug wrote: Yeah since the nerf melta are useless out of Valks since they can't get the melta effect after a drop.
I am not running any Tauroxes. So the meltas also go on the valks. D6 damage is nothing to be shrugged at. And with rerolls and +1 to hit they can be quite effective that way as well.
Plasma Guns can do up to 4 Damage, which is superior to D6 Damage. With +1 to hit you can't even kill yourself with overheat so that's even MORE reason to run plasma.
OK. Point taken. The plasmas also generate an extra shot on a 6+. Meltas don't.
Take plasma pistols on the serges or not? And what about the ratlings vs Eliminators?
If you’re using Scion squads and not command and you want all the damage, yeah.
BaconCatBug wrote: Yeah since the nerf melta are useless out of Valks since they can't get the melta effect after a drop.
I am not running any Tauroxes. So the meltas also go on the valks. D6 damage is nothing to be shrugged at. And with rerolls and +1 to hit they can be quite effective that way as well.
Plasma Guns can do up to 4 Damage, which is superior to D6 Damage. With +1 to hit you can't even kill yourself with overheat so that's even MORE reason to run plasma.
OK. Point taken. The plasmas also generate an extra shot on a 6+. Meltas don't.
Take plasma pistols on the serges or not? And what about the ratlings vs Eliminators?
If not plasma at least use bolt pistols. Hotshot pistols are almost universally useless since they can never be used on the initial drop. All my Sarge's have plasma pistols for that reason.
And yes, plasma all the way for Stormtroopers either way. Be it out of a valk or deepstrike, there's really no reason to run melta over plasma. Plasma is more consistent, more range, can generate extra shots, and is cheaper. It's really embarrassing that melta weapons STILL cost more than plasma despite the math regularly proving otherwise. Until the prices flip flop, there really is 0 reason for the melta to cost more.
The only other special weapon worth considering for Stormtroopers is the volleygun, but it's very niche and can easily be replaced by a vulture or something. I mainly run them to fill out squads since the Stormtroopers box only comes with 1 plasma per 5 men and it's an awful pose at that. I run meltas as well, but purely for casual games and the freak chance that GW learns how to do basic logic and fix the prices of plasma vs melta.
Still trying to decide what I want to have as my 3rd Tank Commander, regular Russ or Demolisher. Should I go for range and saved $ (converting an existing Russ) with a regular Russ Commander, or should I go for damage potential and redundancy with a second Demolisher Commander?
Arcanis161 wrote: Still trying to decide what I want to have as my 3rd Tank Commander, regular Russ or Demolisher. Should I go for range and saved $ (converting an existing Russ) with a regular Russ Commander, or should I go for damage potential and redundancy with a second Demolisher Commander?
Needs more information. Unless it's Tallarn you want the normal cannon.
Arcanis161 wrote: Still trying to decide what I want to have as my 3rd Tank Commander, regular Russ or Demolisher. Should I go for range and saved $ (converting an existing Russ) with a regular Russ Commander, or should I go for damage potential and redundancy with a second Demolisher Commander?
Needs more information. Unless it's Tallarn you want the normal cannon.
I was going more for Catachan for the reroll number of shots order. I mean, I have enough Guardsmen to go either/or (old metal Cadian can count as Tallarn, right?). Doing mostly Battalion detachments, and do intend to take the Vigilus tank detachment (and some form of the Artillery detachment once I get/make room for a Basilisk).
Overall build is just tanks, Artillery piece, and blobs of infantry (lots of Infantry, like 9 minimum) with characters. Fairly simplistic. May throw in Crusaders for close combat blocking (not opposed to Ogryns/Bullgryns, but dislike the aesthetics and, again, storage space is an issue with 2 40k armies, 1 30k army, and a growing AoS army).
So, what are people's thoughts on the points changes from CA?
I feel we got a mixed bag. We now have a cheaper Command Points battery with the price reduction for Scions and Tempestor Primes (2 Tempestor Primes, 3 Scion squads for a total price of 175 points). Not as durable as the Loyal 32, but for five fewer points, they can drop on a far away objective and try to hold it.
I feel with the increase to the Mortar teams, we now have a final nail in the coffin for cheap Brigades, though I personally feel that's already been on the way out as Mortars don't do a lot versus MEQs on average. Sentinels (cheapest Fast Attack slot) are only good for a momentary distraction, and the next cheapest Heavy Support slot are Heavy Bolter toting HW squads, which need LoS and thus will die almost instantly. That's 231 points easily dead turn 1 for 7 command points more that a battalion. Not sure that's worth it.
Never took Ogryns, so not sure how I feel about their point increase, same goes for Wyvern.
Russ tanks took a point cut, but by how much I don't know as of yet. Not sure if it's enough to justify them over/alongside the Tank Commanders.
Lascannons went down 5 points, so that shaves some points here and there. Don't think it makes them worth taking either in HWS or buried in a Cadian Gunline.
I’m happy with the changes overall. I wasn’t running Ogryns or Wyverns but I was running two mortar squads and a punisher tank commander. I swapped the punisher for a demolisher (magnetized turret weapons). The drops to astropaths (running three), lascannons, missile launchers, and leman russes (two in my list in addition to three TC’s) more than made up for the mortar points increase. I’m even thinking of picking up a baneblade variant now for higher point games.
I always liked missile launchers just out of personal preference and therefore I'm quite happy that they dropped. I think they might now be an interesting alternative for Tallarn or Cadian Sentinels as they are the second cheapest weapons option and seem useful enough against light vehicles.
Also a potentially interesting take if you want to put HW in your squads. Don't get me wrong, they are still not Metabreaking great, but it seems to me they are an OK option now.
The punisher matters less but the mortars and wyvern is an annoyance as outside of marines, they do the emperors work against many other armies. I still think you need them so have to find points elsewhere.
I feel as these changes were relevant 6 months ago but hurts us now as they are all less effective in the marine meta and are more expensive..
I too started thinking about adding Missile Launchers to regular Infantry Squads, since they dropped to 10p(?) from 15p.. So far I left my Vostroyan Infantry squads bare, just with a single Plasma Gun, and had heavy weapons only in HWSs
The increase to mortars is fair, as it's still quite efficient in a HWS, but this should have been bumped up a year ago, not now. 45pts is still real cheap for what you get. I think we'll stop seeing them splashed into infantry squads though.
The Ogryn price hike is mystifying. I'd bet it was a typo, because even with the big cut, I still never saw anybody actually play Ogryn.
Scions getting a drop (really the second drop, with hotshots going down last year) keep them around as an interesting aspect to our army. They still come in turn 2, usually bottom of two, making them more of a beta strike.
Cheaper lascannons and Missiles are long overdue. MLs splashed onto infantry squads sounds vaguely interesting. Lascannon veteran squads now run 65pts. Squad based heavy weapons are now the garnish on the IG plate, not the meat, but at least GW is helping to keep them alive. Alternatively, missile launcher armored sentinels at 40pts give brigades a durable, cheap option that will do at least some work against any target.
With the points change, what are people thoughts on the griffon vs wyrven. I've seen some talk about how the wyvren is not effective enough vs MEQ.
Griffion (85pts w/ HB) heavy D6 (roll 2 pick highest) S6 AP-1 D-D3 vs Wyvren (113 w/ HB) 4D6 S4 AP0 D1 reroll wound. Does the better S, AP, and possible better D of the griffon more efficient now?
Mainly asking as I HATE the wyvren model, have been using my griffons as wyvren already anyway.
Salted Diamond wrote: With the points change, what are people thoughts on the griffon vs wyrven. I've seen some talk about how the wyvren is not effective enough vs MEQ.
Griffion (85pts w/ HB) heavy D6 (roll 2 pick highest) S6 AP-1 D-D3 vs Wyvren (113 w/ HB) 4D6 S4 AP0 D1 reroll wound. Does the better S, AP, and possible better D of the griffon more efficient now?
Mainly asking as I HATE the wyvren model, have been using my griffons as wyvren already anyway.
Why not just take a basilisk though? It's a 23pt upgrade to the griffon to gain S9 and AP-3.
Salted Diamond wrote: With the points change, what are people thoughts on the griffon vs wyrven. I've seen some talk about how the wyvren is not effective enough vs MEQ.
Griffion (85pts w/ HB) heavy D6 (roll 2 pick highest) S6 AP-1 D-D3 vs Wyvren (113 w/ HB) 4D6 S4 AP0 D1 reroll wound. Does the better S, AP, and possible better D of the griffon more efficient now?
Mainly asking as I HATE the wyvren model, have been using my griffons as wyvren already anyway.
Why not just take a basilisk though? It's a 23pt upgrade to the griffon to gain S9 and AP-3.
I field 2 basilisks, but also have 2 griffons I got when they were codex. Used them as wyvren as they used to be pretty good pre-primaris days
Apologies if I've missed the discussion, but what's the thinking on Scions with the points drop? In my airborne list I'm considering running more bare Scions as objective-grabbers, now that a min squad is a mere 35pts.
Are we still stuck with plasma command squad spam as the only viable build, or can full-size squads be useful?
I think the problem with full size squads (as much as I want them to be viable), is that the bodies with the HSLG just don't do enough given how dinky their range is. You would have to give them FRFSRF to give them decent damage output, but that normally goes against the special weapons that you put on them in large squads, so it just ends up that the extra bodies (cheap as they are) are better off in a separate squad altogether. It also doesn't help that if they do kill enough, you'll probably lose a fair bit to morale.
I did some quick math in Excel, comparing five to ten man squads (all with max plasma/plasma pistol), with and without take aim (adding half the cost of a prime), the results of cheapest points per wound are, from worst to first:
five Man under Take aim (17.6 pph) Ten Man plain (17 pph) Ten Men under Take Aim (16.8) Five Man plain (15.9 pph)
This means over a 500 detachment, five man squads without orders will score about two more hits per turn than a ten man squad. With order, the ten man squads will score 1.5 more hits.
The above assumes stormtrooper doctrine, and does not take into account the value of the hot shots (marginal) or the value of a prime beyond orders (minimal but not nothing).
It looks like the play is to run minimum if you aren't running primes and max if you are. the question of running primes isn't a math question, but depends on what else you can take to fill the HQ slots you need.
EDIT: I also forgot that primes unlock Command squads, which are eye wateringly efficient at 13.2 pph under orders and 12.8pph plain.
Depending on how big you wanted to get, the most efficient MT battalion is probably two primes, two command squads, two max squads, and a min squad, all with full plasma. that's 540 points for 44 plasma shots on the drop, yeiling 39 plasma shots and 34.7 hits.
Been thinking about Scions and their durability in the new Marine Meta. Based on the math I've been looking at (comparing regular and Primaris Marines shooting at different squad sizes, reroll buff, and Tactical Doctrine), it looks like if you want to drop them somewhere to hold an objective, you'll want to take full 10 man squads for survivability. The 5 man squad, even in cover, just gets absolutely shredded in most cases. (The 10 man squad though also gets shredded if more than 5 Marines look at them during Tactical Doctrine).
5 man squads might be good for a quick drop to kill somethings.
Math on the Mortars is also interesting. No orders, 3 squads all Mortars does 2 unsaved wounds on MEQ, and 7 on GEQ (assuming 3+ and 5+ saves respectively), versus the 1 and 4 unsaved wounds, respectively, from 3 Infantry squads at range. However, when comparing 3 Cadian Mortar Squads with Take Aim order to 3 Infantry squads at range doing FRFSRF, they do the same unsaved wounds, 3 vs MEQ and 10 vs GEQ (same assumptions on saves respectively).
So, at that point, the Mortar squads are paying 5 extra points a piece for range and firing outside of LoS.
I know all of you have said as such, but the Mortar squads only suffer now thanks to the new Marine Meta. The only non-marine armies I've seen in my local meta in recent weeks have been Tau, Nids, and Guard. Mortars might help against Nids and Guard, but I've mainly seen Marines of one flavor or another, so they may be in the shelf for awhile.
I've always been underwhelmed by mortars, but I've been the only guard player in my area for a long time. They're just incredibly weak against marines that the points are better spent on another basilisk in my opinion. If you faced a lot of hordes they probably still have some use but that's about it. Yes that means you're not getting a cheap brigade but I honestly think 2-3 batallions is better anyways.
I've always felt the cheap brigade was a trap, and this kind of seals it. Yeah we have cheap filler units but by the time you have them all filled in you're losing almost 200pts just to get a couple of command points over a double batallion with units you wanted to spam anyways. Don't get me wrong, I'll still take batallions, but when I do I take units that are useful like Hellhounds and basilisks. Only point to a brigade these days is to maximize use out of vigilus detachments by putting all your infantry in one detachment for the infantry one and sticking stuff like the tanks or artillery in their own section.
They certainly weren't bad firepower for 33pts, but I was already leaving them out in lieu of other things. Maybe a 1-2pt nerf might have been acceptable, but 5pts per model? Won't be using them at all!
When brigades were triple the CP of battalions, paying the tax made sense. They still make sense if you aren't running pure guard.
The real appeal to brigades is that for some armies (catachan armor heavy in particular) there isn't a tax. Hellhounds and LRBTs are both great choices with Catachan doctrine. Tallarn can kind of slide in with truly mobile sentinels, but they remain mostly a tax.
Smirrors wrote: The punisher matters less but the mortars and wyvern is an annoyance as outside of marines, they do the emperors work against many other armies. I still think you need them so have to find points elsewhere.
I feel as these changes were relevant 6 months ago but hurts us now as they are all less effective in the marine meta and are more expensive..
This.
Wyvern and mortar nerf now is erroneous. I think someone at GW messed up Ogryns vs Bullgryns, bit im not complaining. Having publisher go up also sucks as I had all these units in my army. Not sure if scion drop is gonna be worth it as they will still be dying in droves, though we could see the return of plasma. Astorpaths, good i guess, always good to have another spell, but only need +1 armor and -1 save spells, so more than 2 is really not needed IMO.
The base leman going down is interesting. Im gonna see about making a Tallarn tank company that takes advantage of the shoot and scoot.
The baneblade chassis that no one uses went down, but I don't think we will see our Super Heavies in a competitive list environment be effective without invuls. They are too big to hide still.
I think it will be interesting to see if Brandon Grant changes armies or sticks with guard.
I feel like we got pretty lucky as far as points changes go. The few units that went up I never really used much and we had a ton get discounts. Lascannons on tank commanders is a lot more tempting when it's only a 7pt upgrade now for example. Regular Russe's are the cheapest I've ever seen them. If I'm doing the math right a leman Russ Demolisher with heavy Bolter is 135pts, that's pretty good. You can afford to keep tank commanders as longer ranged support variants and just shove demolishers up the table. I wouldn't take anything crazy but one or two is a hell of a distraction, especially with a trait like Catachan. You cannot let those tanks live, they just delete things.
Astropaths are probably autoinclude now. Yeah they can't all cast barrier and shroud but screw it, it's a 15pt chance at a deny, easy brigade filler, and you can just fish for an offensive spell like gaze of the emperor or smite. Start off with that power, and if it fails, who cares it's 15 points. If it goes off once over a game it pays for itself, you can bait a deny they'd prefer on barrier/shroud, and this is ignoring that they let your army just ignore cover on things like eliminators. That's ridiculous utility for a 15 pt character.
Finally, that's a serious discount on Stormtroopers. At 7ppm on basic squads that's some serious utility. Yeah their weapons suck on the drop but it's 35 pts to drop a troop unit onto an objective and fill a brigade. That's not bad at all. Plasma is still cheaper than melta for reasons I'll never understand so they still have the ability to drop in and kill things too. I think they're going to pop up a lot in CP soup batallions. The ability to jsut drop them where needed is pretty clutch. I may you around with them again and see how they do in a pure guard army.
Our new Forgeworld points seem to be a mixed bag (below just the changed point-cost of models I use a lot or intend to use):
- Artemia Pattern Hellhound: 108 -> 101 (nice)
- Death Riders: 14 -> 15 p/m (Hmmm, I got 30 of these lads)
- Vulture with punisher: 160 -> 185 (Ouch, that hurts!!!, just got one of those)
- Thunderbolt: chassis from 100 -> 125 (darn, I just bought two)
- Lightning strike fighter: chassis from 95 -> 125 (darn again, just started painting up my second Lightning!)
- Vendettas don't profit from the point reduction of lascannon since their twin lascannon still costs 40 points (can't I swap those for two single please?!?)
Seems like my new army (air heavy scions) is hurt a lot, even before I have started building it.
Bobthehero wrote: It probably balances out the -2ppm cost of Scions, in your case.
Two thunderbolts and two vultures gonna cost an additional 100 points in total. That's not compensated by the 40+10 (scions+primes) in the Valks. And it is not that these flyers were all that effective to start with.
I will build the army anyways, since i just need those 'Apocalyps now' moments, but don't expect to take it to a tourney.
I'm not going to be able to look at Chapter Approved for a couple of weeks due to a lot of holiday stuff going on. Did the Leman Russ Annihilator get a point decrease as well, or was that just the standard Leman Russ?
Arcanis161 wrote: I'm not going to be able to look at Chapter Approved for a couple of weeks due to a lot of holiday stuff going on. Did the Leman Russ Annihilator get a point decrease as well, or was that just the standard Leman Russ?
Don't forget, people upset about the forgeworld flyers, that the Hellstrike Missile went from 30 pts back to 12, making a Marauder Destroyer go from a absolutely bonkers 540 points to a more well-priced (though still overcosted) 350ish
tneva82 wrote: What's the common factor with the point increases? That's major hint.
Yeah, but what is the point in increasing the cost of flyers; it is not that they got so much table- time?
Unit1126PLL wrote: Don't forget, people upset about the forgeworld flyers, that the Hellstrike Missile went from 30 pts back to 12, making a Marauder Destroyer go from a absolutely bonkers 540 points to a more well-priced (though still overcosted) 350ish
Interesting, I didn't spot that. Thus the base cost is increased but a fully kitted Thunderbolt or Lightning will cost less. Hmmm, don't like to invest all those points in one unit but it might be better now to do so.
The Hunter- killer missles also got a decrease. I like those on a Vulture.
I'm looking at CA2018 next to CA2019 and the Thunderbolt and Lightning are identical in points. Other than the missile change, they seem identical. What am I missing?
I am looking to play a mainly tank (LRBT variants) army but I have played little of this edition and certainly no AM. Is is viable or even sensible to try? I have done a little research and i like the demolishers and executioners, perhaps in tallarn or vostroyan, however I'm not sure hat is a reasonable amount to have in and what the pitfalls of going tank heavy might be.
Any experienced treadheads want to give me a few pointers?
It's critical to decide how you are going to screen your tanks. If something gets into melee you lose so much fire power. So you either need an infantry screen or small outrider vehicles like sentinels/hellhounds to keep your big guns firing.
I am looking to play a mainly tank (LRBT variants) army but I have played little of this edition and certainly no AM. Is is viable or even sensible to try? I have done a little research and i like the demolishers and executioners, perhaps in tallarn or vostroyan, however I'm not sure hat is a reasonable amount to have in and what the pitfalls of going tank heavy might be.
Any experienced treadheads want to give me a few pointers?
I say go for it. My Imperial Guard army (~2000 points) has a lot of tanks and the LRBT is a great tank, especially with the recent points change. I have magnetized the demolisher, executioner, and punisher cannons from that kit so I can swap weapons as needed. I suggest running three as Tank Commanders, and then three more LRBT models so you can form a single unit if you desire. I like adding plasma on the sponsons and running my army as Tallarn to avoid the to-hit penalty for movement. I also bring six infantry squads, two sentinels and a hellhound, three astropaths, a basilisk and a couple mortar teams to form a brigade. You need infantry to screen your tanks; if the enemy gets into melee with your tanks they get shut down. Tallarn infantry are able to move quickly as well.
Also see if you can take the russes in a spearhead with the vigilus formation. Making the tanks get objective secured and getting the hammer of sundrance is great, as well as the extra abilities.
How would you handle a winged hive tyrant with -1 to be hit wt and the -1 to the damage suffered relics ? Statically, it's about 5 russes with hb sponsons to kill it ..
I thought about an Hydra but it's not that great. I do have acess to the assassinorum and the Inquisition.
on a purely theorethical basis uncharged Plasma should be good. It has just enough Strength to wound on 3+, if he the flyrant has -1 damage you don't gain anything from overcharging anyway so you can leave it and don't risk blowing up.
The Hydra is still good, but loosing half its damage really hurts.
I am looking to play a mainly tank (LRBT variants) army but I have played little of this edition and certainly no AM. Is is viable or even sensible to try? I have done a little research and i like the demolishers and executioners, perhaps in tallarn or vostroyan, however I'm not sure hat is a reasonable amount to have in and what the pitfalls of going tank heavy might be.
Any experienced treadheads want to give me a few pointers?
No, it's not viable.
Lists are made on the assumption they need to kill a Knight. Therefore any vehicle smaller than a Knight gets deleted instantly.
I am looking to play a mainly tank (LRBT variants) army but I have played little of this edition and certainly no AM. Is is viable or even sensible to try? I have done a little research and i like the demolishers and executioners, perhaps in tallarn or vostroyan, however I'm not sure hat is a reasonable amount to have in and what the pitfalls of going tank heavy might be.
Any experienced treadheads want to give me a few pointers?
No, it's not viable.
Lists are made on the assumption they need to kill a Knight. Therefore any vehicle smaller than a Knight gets deleted instantly.
They are designed to kill one knight a turn, in general. Not several smaller units so it may work. And not everyone play in such a competitive environment: I have never faced a single knight of my life for example (even in tournaments I never faced the knights lists !)
Pyroalchi wrote: on a purely theorethical basis uncharged Plasma should be good. It has just enough Strength to wound on 3+, if he the flyrant has -1 damage you don't gain anything from overcharging anyway so you can leave it and don't risk blowing up.
The Hydra is still good, but loosing half its damage really hurts.
Im looking at this list post CA ITC tourney list.
3 relics, 2 WLT, lots of CP, 2 vigilus detachments. Meant to tackle the marine meta.
Catachan Arty party with rerolls and relic for AP boost, ignore LOS and Cover relic with CC and MoO baby sitters. Shoot twice strat each turn.
Catachan Leman Russ Eradicator to ignore cover on those pesky stealthy marines. With catachan you should be getting 9 shots per tank with grinding advance at -2 AP and ignoring the cover. D3 damage good for taking out primaris. I considered the demolisher catachan which has higher strength and AP, but doesnt ignore cover. The goal for these Eradicators is to clear out eliminators with he 2+ cover so they dont pick off all my characters.
Spam astropath to take advantage of spells and ability to grant buff to ignore cover an units with 18" within 6.
Mortar teams are there to fill the brigade and can be used to provide some anti horde. WHich I could get them as cadian but oh well. Maybe make a squad engineers and hide on objective in back.
Sentinels can use outflank strat with Autocannon marine killing goodness, with tallarn no penalties to hit.
Tallarn Tank Commanders move and shoot and scoot to hide out of LoS to survive. Relic Hammer on one, punisher on one for anti horde in case run up against orks. (considering battle cannon)
Tallarn infantry can be fast and try and advance them up to within rapid fire range just within 12" to avoid the stealthy bonus.
Ardia seems like a good pysker option for the +1 to hit, too bad its infantry only. Not sure who to put her with? Camp with the mortars? Run around up front with the infantry squads? Bullgryn came to mind, but the Assault Centrurions are just going to melt them (unless i get Fight priority/charge off). I considered 7-9 bullgryn with Invul shields, priest, astropath save +1 buff for 3++, and Ardia +1 to hit (2s), can be good and would definitely kill 3 Aggressors in a charge, the issue is the thunderfire cannons slowing them down, and they are not an easy unit to hide.
Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 45pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [15pts]: Mortar [9pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [15pts]: Mortar [9pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [15pts]: Mortar [9pts]
Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 45pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [15pts]: Mortar [9pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [15pts]: Mortar [9pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [15pts]: Mortar [9pts]
Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 45pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [15pts]: Mortar [9pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [15pts]: Mortar [9pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [15pts]: Mortar [9pts]
Would it be acceptable to have some infantry for screens but also an allied SC detachment of BA captains to counter charge anything trying to lock me up (and to deal with example nid monsters, etc)?
You are totally right, I mixed up strength and toughness. In that case forget about my uncharged plasma comment.
In that case: if you can get around the short range the Banewolf and Hellhound might be worth a second look. At least they autohit and doing 1 damage they don't care about the -1 damage relict. The Hellhound has twice the shots, but wounds on 5+ compared to the Banewolfs 2+. But It would still take really long to killl the Hive Tyrant with that.
I just read again about the -1 Damage trait. Its a warlord trait that only starts at the end of the phase the bearer first took damage. So as long as you bring him down in one phase, you can make full damage.
Apart from that: maybe Psykers?
Dynas wrote: Sentinels can use outflank strat with Autocannon marine killing goodness, with tallarn no penalties to hit.
Do people think that AC sentinels took a bit of a hit? Both lascannon and missile versions are cheaper now, and cost was the main advantage of ACs. I'm a bit of a lascannon lover though.
Dynas wrote: Sentinels can use outflank strat with Autocannon marine killing goodness, with tallarn no penalties to hit.
Do people think that AC sentinels took a bit of a hit? Both lascannon and missile versions are cheaper now, and cost was the main advantage of ACs. I'm a bit of a lascannon lover though.
Taking a hit would imply they were good in the first place, but my heavily biased opinion on the uselessness of sentinels this edition is well documented so I'm probably not the best person to ask. Even with the points drops I'd rather just stick those lascannons on Russes since that's a 7pt upgrade now to give you the same firepower you're paying 45pts for in a sentinel.
You are totally right, I mixed up strength and toughness. In that case forget about my uncharged plasma comment.
In that case: if you can get around the short range the Banewolf and Hellhound might be worth a second look. At least they autohit and doing 1 damage they don't care about the -1 damage relict. The Hellhound has twice the shots, but wounds on 5+ compared to the Banewolfs 2+. But It would still take really long to killl the Hive Tyrant with that.
I just read again about the -1 Damage trait. Its a warlord trait that only starts at the end of the phase the bearer first took damage. So as long as you bring him down in one phase, you can make full damage.
Apart from that: maybe Psykers?
That's true, I tend to forget it and I think it tends to forget it too...
Well that improve things quite a bit tbh. Gonna check my codex and WD to find some tools now. Thanks !
There continues to only be a handful of useful ways to use sentinels. They have never, and continue to not, provide enough firepower to justify their cost. The uses continue to be:
1) deep strike blockers
2) objective grabbers
3) brigade tax fillers
The changes to the game have minimized the first, and they really aren't durable enough for the second after turn one or two. The third at least bundles nicely with the other two.
That leaves you with two basic options: keep them cheap, as scouts, and rely on mobility; or keep them cheap, as armored, to stand and shoot in a brigade. (Tallarn can run mobile armored, TBF, and Catachan heavy flamer scouts are semi spicy) I'd still pick plasma for the armored sentinels, especially under Cadian (both for rerolls and to trigger Overlap), but they're all semi viable.
Polonius wrote: They have never, and continue to not, provide enough firepower to justify their cost.
They were pretty good ouflankers when vehicles had facings. That's the last time I remember them really being super useful. Could be nostalgia though, I probably wasted too many points on my outflanking ac/hk sentinels. Great against those side armour 11 vehicles though.
Frankly I have 3 guard armies, but competitively all I see are butt naked Cadians pretending to be catachans and guarding basilisk's, baneblades, or knights
If they aren't spamming baneblades or knights it's valkyrie's full of ogryn, priests, and psykers.
That's not to say infantry IG is not viable just stating what I've seen competitively with the exception of 1 Krieg player...but he was running a bunch of super heavy forgeworld flame tanks.
It was cool but competitive wise it wasn't getting much traction on the tabletop.
Polonius wrote: They have never, and continue to not, provide enough firepower to justify their cost.
They were pretty good ouflankers when vehicles had facings. That's the last time I remember them really being super useful. Could be nostalgia though, I probably wasted too many points on my outflanking ac/hk sentinels. Great against those side armour 11 vehicles though.
I am including 3 sentinels for primarily for theme, but also for FA slots, and I had not thought about switching them to Lascannons with the point drop. Not competitive, but probably slightly more usable now. I don't play competitive outside of store events so no big issue for me
Which regimental doctrine is the best for handling morale, Valhallan or Mordian?
I looks like mordian is better when you lose less than half a squad, but valhallan become better when you lose more than half. I suppose valhallan is good because you might have one guardsmen left after a big attack, but it seems just as likely that the whole squad will be wiped. And even then, one guardsman won't do much except in very specific circumstances. But for mordian, I can't see then 1 point of LD making much a difference in any situation. I guess the question is: is 5+ overwatch worth a situational morale advantage? I don't play guard, but I am looking to get a loyal 32 of sorts and am trying to pick the best doctrine for it.
Eipi10 wrote: Which regimental doctrine is the best for handling morale, Valhallan or Mordian?
I looks like mordian is better when you lose less than half a squad, but valhallan become better when you lose more than half. I suppose valhallan is good because you might have one guardsmen left after a big attack, but it seems just as likely that the whole squad will be wiped. And even then, one guardsman won't do much except in very specific circumstances. But for mordian, I can't see then 1 point of LD making much a difference in any situation. I guess the question is: is 5+ overwatch worth a situational morale advantage? I don't play guard, but I am looking to get a loyal 32 of sorts and am trying to pick the best doctrine for it.
Eipi10 wrote: Which regimental doctrine is the best for handling morale, Valhallan or Mordian?
I looks like mordian is better when you lose less than half a squad, but valhallan become better when you lose more than half. I suppose valhallan is good because you might have one guardsmen left after a big attack, but it seems just as likely that the whole squad will be wiped. And even then, one guardsman won't do much except in very specific circumstances. But for mordian, I can't see then 1 point of LD making much a difference in any situation. I guess the question is: is 5+ overwatch worth a situational morale advantage? I don't play guard, but I am looking to get a loyal 32 of sorts and am trying to pick the best doctrine for it.
Valhallans are nice in that you really don't need to babysit the squads any, and they can spread out as needed. Mordians need to be B2B which really hurts their use as screens, grabbing objectives, etc. Usually if an opponent wants them gone they have to commit to killing them unless they knocked a squad down to 3 or less men in a single shooting phase. Main draw for them is mk45 conscripts, or kitting out some SWS and HWS to shoot into melee for various reasons. Strat is quite literally useless for them unfortunately.
Catachans are comparable to mordians in that they also get +1 ld, but just by being near officers, where they're going to be most of the time anyways. Catachans also have that really tasty S4 which is nice.
Simply put, most of the doctrines don't mean much for a 32 detachment. Maybe a few more guys stick around or you get a little better melee but they won't be doing a whole lot. If you just plan on adding a swarm of infantry to screen and grab objectives, you probably want the old standby of Catachans with a couple melee buff characters like straken and a priest or two. That way they're mobile, they have lasguns to clear hordes, LD 8, and melee to help protect your line and clear objectives or finish off something they shot.
Valhallans are nice in that you really don't need to babysit the squads any, and they can spread out as needed. Mordians need to be B2B which really hurts their use as screens, grabbing objectives, etc. Usually if an opponent wants them gone they have to commit to killing them unless they knocked a squad down to 3 or less men in a single shooting phase. Main draw for them is mk45 conscripts, or kitting out some SWS and HWS to shoot into melee for various reasons. Strat is quite literally useless for them unfortunately.
Catachans are comparable to mordians in that they also get +1 ld, but just by being near officers, where they're going to be most of the time anyways. Catachans also have that really tasty S4 which is nice.
Simply put, most of the doctrines don't mean much for a 32 detachment. Maybe a few more guys stick around or you get a little better melee but they won't be doing a whole lot. If you just plan on adding a swarm of infantry to screen and grab objectives, you probably want the old standby of Catachans with a couple melee buff characters like straken and a priest or two. That way they're mobile, they have lasguns to clear hordes, LD 8, and melee to help protect your line and clear objectives or finish off something they shot.
I am not going anything fancy like that, my tentative list is 3 guardsmen squads, a CC, a PC, the blackstone primaris psyker (not to buff the guard, just because I need another deny + smite), and maybe a priest since it looks like I will have the points after CA and I have a model that will fit. While I know catachan is the best regiment overall, I would feel really bad about running non-catachan guard models as catachans. I figured one of the other morale boosting regiments would serve this detachment the best.
It looks to me like the valhallan RD will only really come into play if you get an 11-13 on the moral test. Anything more and no moral buff will help and anything less and it won't make a difference over +1 LD. Mordia will be better for anything less, especially with the overwatch buff. I just don't know how many models I can expect to loose in one turn when a squad gets targeted. Should I expect to lose most of the squad, the whole squad, or only a small part of the squad? I don't play horde armies so I really have no idea what to expect. I can't use my past experience either, since a frag cannon can eliminate a whole guard squad on it's own. Some quick math tells me an intercessor squad can take about 5 guardsmen in one turn, so that would make mordia better. But if my opponent decides to throw some storm bolters in on top of the intercessors, I will reach 6-8 casualties, valhalla is better. I don't know which I can should expect to happen, do people go in for the kill when targeting guard squads or just sprinkle them with some fire and continue on their way?
I've been having fun with a Mordian list. I have my command tank upgraded to a commissar tank (treat your leadership as 9 within 6". Add close order and a reg standard, my squads are Ld 11 while screening the tank moving with it. I don't think I've failed a morale check yet with them, and med packs in the command squads are useful IMO to keep he squads going. Yes they can get deleted outright, but any that get low simply swap places for a full up one and keep going. +1 to overwatch is also helpful here, and I have caught a few people by suprise with the Mordian order and plinked characters that get to close trying to buff squads.
I'm by no means saying it's better or competitive, but it's fun
*edit* other question, how are manticores in 8th. I've never fielded them in general, are they worth it any or are basilisks always better?
30 guardsmen isn't really a horde. I'm used to losing 60. Turn against a player that knows what theyre doing and in really intense games I've see a 100 die in one turn. It really depends on the rest of your list and what you're allying in, but most likely those guardsmen will all be dead turn 1-2 if they have any serious use for you. That said sometimes just taking bullets and wasting opponents time is the best thing guardsmen can do, and it can win you games. I've had games against knights for example where guardsmen were my most important unit. They never landed a wound all Game, but with proper spacing I was able to delay gallants hitting my line till turn 4.
Basically just realize they're going to die crazy fast if the opponent wants em dead.
Salted Diamond wrote: I've been having fun with a Mordian list. I have my command tank upgraded to a commissar tank (treat your leadership as 9 within 6". Add close order and a reg standard, my squads are Ld 11 while screening the tank moving with it. I don't think I've failed a morale check yet with them, and med packs in the command squads are useful IMO to keep he squads going. Yes they can get deleted outright, but any that get low simply swap places for a full up one and keep going. +1 to overwatch is also helpful here, and I have caught a few people by suprise with the Mordian order and plinked characters that get to close trying to buff squads.
I'm by no means saying it's better or competitive, but it's fun
*edit* other question, how are manticores in 8th. I've never fielded them in general, are they worth it any or are basilisks always better?
I won't be able to pull fancy tricks like that, I have about 200 points to work with once you take account of the psyker. But are lasguns really that good at character sniping? I looks like they will only do 1 wound to a SM captain on average. I guess that's about the same as it is against a normal SM when using FRFSRF, point for point. It's it more useful than Valhalla though? Letting guardsmen shoot into custodes who are tied up in melee seems like a decent ability.
I don't think manticores are worth their points compared to basilisks. They are better in most every way, but not 25 points better. A 4 attack limit is not a big deal and 2.5 extra shots is way better than an extra point of AP.
MrMoustaffa wrote: 30 guardsmen isn't really a horde. I'm used to losing 60. Turn against a player that knows what theyre doing and in really intense games I've see a 100 die in one turn. It really depends on the rest of your list and what you're allying in, but most likely those guardsmen will all be dead turn 1-2 if they have any serious use for you. That said sometimes just taking bullets and wasting opponents time is the best thing guardsmen can do, and it can win you games. I've had games against knights for example where guardsmen were my most important unit. They never landed a wound all Game, but with proper spacing I was able to delay gallants hitting my line till turn 4.
Basically just realize they're going to die crazy fast if the opponent wants em dead.
They are a very "That's what the Mobile Infantry is good for" kind of detachment. But I would rather take casualties from my opponent than from morale, so I want a RD good for that. But if what you say is true, does that mean a guard squad under fire will lose about 6-7 models per turn? mordians would get wiped with those kind of loses, but valhalla will still have 1 or 2 guys left. Anything more or less and I might as well go mordian, both for better combat efficiency while they are alive and for better moral against light loses.
Manticores are pricey compared to basilisks true, but it's worth it for the extra alpha turn 1 imo. Add on the stupid amount of invun's on the board meaning that AP-3 gets wasted most the time I'll tend to take manticore's unless the cost is an issue.
There's also the fact that manticore's are way more compact, and hence easier to hide behind cover and pack into my cases (which definitely isn't a major point in their favour personally...).
Also guardsmen have the durability of wet paper, you're more likely to lose the entire squad outright to wounds rather than morale. About the only thing you can do for them is keep them in cover (Except a bunch of stuff now ignores cover) and use the take cover strat if you really want them to live.
Expect your guardsmen to die a lot, and bring a sufficient quantity to ensure you still have some left by turn 5. Trying to make them more durable is a fools errand, they don't have the stats or rules to pull that off.
MrMoustaffa wrote: 30 guardsmen isn't really a horde. I'm used to losing 60. Turn against a player that knows what theyre doing and in really intense games I've see a 100 die in one turn. It really depends on the rest of your list and what you're allying in, but most likely those guardsmen will all be dead turn 1-2 if they have any serious use for you. That said sometimes just taking bullets and wasting opponents time is the best thing guardsmen can do, and it can win you games. I've had games against knights for example where guardsmen were my most important unit. They never landed a wound all Game, but with proper spacing I was able to delay gallants hitting my line till turn 4.
Basically just realize they're going to die crazy fast if the opponent wants em dead.
And a rare occasion where playing fluffy is also playing competitive at the same time
MrMoustaffa wrote: 30 guardsmen isn't really a horde. I'm used to losing 60. Turn against a player that knows what theyre doing and in really intense games I've see a 100 die in one turn. It really depends on the rest of your list and what you're allying in, but most likely those guardsmen will all be dead turn 1-2 if they have any serious use for you. That said sometimes just taking bullets and wasting opponents time is the best thing guardsmen can do, and it can win you games. I've had games against knights for example where guardsmen were my most important unit. They never landed a wound all Game, but with proper spacing I was able to delay gallants hitting my line till turn 4.
Basically just realize they're going to die crazy fast if the opponent wants em dead.
And a rare occasion where playing fluffy is also playing competitive at the same time
You say that, but I think Guard really does reward you for adopting the mindset of a guard general in the books. We all know the phases a guard player goes through as he learns the army.
1. Love every guardsman, name em, give em special little touches and backstories. "Little Jimmy will make it, just hang in there!" You feel every lost guardsman, many of them this is the first time you've seen them die.
2. "Oh God Emperor why is everyone dying?" Get real jaded, life is cheap. Send in the next wave, there's more where that came from. You've watched entire platoons get wiped at this point, sometimes all for nothing. You just shovel them into the grinder, knowing they don't stand a choice.
3. "A guardsman's LIFE is to die. My job has always been to send them to places where they can die. I'm not afraid to spend them, but I never waste them." Yes, you're perfectly willing to throw ten guardsmen at a knight. Others see you as a horrible monster, but none will see that you saved the rest of the platoon by buying them another turn of shooting to kill the knight.
Remember that third quote, and you'll understand a lot about how guard works. Our army works how it's supposed to in the lore far more than most, even in pretty competitive play. You should always be ready for losses, they're inevitable. The key is making those losses mean something. 9 guardsmen die to protect the plasma gun that kills that smash captain that jumped into your line. Those 3 squads died to protect the tank behind them to take out the enemy knight. Those 3 tanks died to keep the enemy off the objective one more turn to win the game. Guard plays the economy of war more than almost any faction in this game, and when you wrap your head around that, you really start to understand how guard works.
It's not something well represented with ITC unfortunately, what with killing units being a major part of winning, but with GW missions that mindset serves you well. It's not exactly something to bring up in the tactics thread though, most people here have reached that point a long time ago if they're looking at competitive play, but it's always good to remind the rookies of this from time to time.
I think I can best sum this up is the game I mentioned where I fought against a chaos knight army. I had a very bread and butter Valhallans list with 100 guardsmen, hellhounds, Russe's, and basilisks. I would sacrifice 30 guardsmen a turn feeding them into the chaos melee knights to buy me turns to shoot. At one point, a knight died, then got back up with one wound thanks to their strat. Shooting phase is over, I can't kill him... Or can I? So I charge in a weakened Hellhound, claiming that I'm just trying to prevent him from falling 'forward' for lack of a better term, and fighting. Knight player takes bait, squishes hellhound. Hellhound explodes, killing the knight and saving the right flank. Yes, I doomed that hellhound, it was sent into that fight specifically to die. But if I hadn't sacrificed the crew of that tank, several more tanks would die. I proceeded to lose the game due to some cold dice on my Hammer of Sunderance, but it's a good lesson all the same.
I won't be able to pull fancy tricks like that, I have about 200 points to work with once you take account of the psyker. But are lasguns really that good at character sniping? I looks like they will only do 1 wound to a SM captain on average. I guess that's about the same as it is against a normal SM when using FRFSRF, point for point. It's it more useful than Valhalla though? Letting guardsmen shoot into custodes who are tied up in melee seems like a decent ability.
I don't think manticores are worth their points compared to basilisks. They are better in most every way, but not 25 points better. A 4 attack limit is not a big deal and 2.5 extra shots is way better than an extra point of AP..
The order effects rapid fire weapons so plasma gets to join in as well, if you also happen to have "Laurels of Command" you can then trigger FRFSRF at the character. That is how I usually roll and I've now had opponents pull charcters out of aura range because they know I could do it. I should add they my local meta is only a couple of people even own a knight and there are zero Custodes players, not even as allies.
Brandon Grant did an interview recently (art of war I believe). where he was stating that catachan even with leadership and S4 are still not enough to crack marines. They just dont care.
Im really beginning to lean more toward Tallarn for Infantry and Tank commanders.
Infantry can move and advance and still shoot with regiment. Make sure to keep out of LoS.
Scions seem like an option but still die just as fast. not sure what would be the best option honestly.
Gotta agree with MrMoustaffa. I was speaking with someone in my gaming group about this the other day (I swear the guy is good enough to win tournaments); Guard aren't (or are no longer) a killy army, but they are perfect for objective based games. Blobs of infantry that are difficult to eliminate entirely, tanks and Basilisks to kill anything that can.
Dynas wrote: Brandon Grant did an interview recently (art of war I believe). where he was stating that catachan even with leadership and S4 are still not enough to crack marines. They just dont care.
Im really beginning to lean more toward Tallarn for Infantry and Tank commanders.
Infantry can move and advance and still shoot with regiment. Make sure to keep out of LoS.
Scions seem like an option but still die just as fast. not sure what would be the best option honestly.
Granted I haven't used Scions since the point change, but honestly I only see them as useful if part of your plan is to take and hold an objective on the opponents side of the table, especially since they die as quickly as Guardsmen (especially against Primaris)
Salted Diamond wrote: The order effects rapid fire weapons so plasma gets to join in as well, if you also happen to have "Laurels of Command" you can then trigger FRFSRF at the character. That is how I usually roll and I've now had opponents pull charcters out of aura range because they know I could do it. I should add they my local meta is only a couple of people even own a knight and there are zero Custodes players, not even as allies.
Unless it's been FAQ'ed, I'm pretty sure FRFSRF only affects lasguns and hotshot lasguns. But I won't have any relics or WL traits on my guard, except maybe the CP regen one.
gbghg wrote: Also guardsmen have the durability of wet paper, you're more likely to lose the entire squad outright to wounds rather than morale. About the only thing you can do for them is keep them in cover (Except a bunch of stuff now ignores cover) and use the take cover strat if you really want them to live.
Expect your guardsmen to die a lot, and bring a sufficient quantity to ensure you still have some left by turn 5. Trying to make them more durable is a fools errand, they don't have the stats or rules to pull that off.
I am just running a loyal 32 allied detachment, of sorts, I only have ~200 points of space after the psyker. But I always thought guard was one of the more durable factions, point for point. If you're right, then should I just run mordia for the marginal combat gains? I mean, out of all the possible moral states you could get, valhalla will only beat mordia in 6 of them.
Salted Diamond wrote: The order effects rapid fire weapons so plasma gets to join in as well, if you also happen to have "Laurels of Command" you can then trigger FRFSRF at the character. That is how I usually roll and I've now had opponents pull charcters out of aura range because they know I could do it. I should add they my local meta is only a couple of people even own a knight and there are zero Custodes players, not even as allies.
Unless it's been FAQ'ed, I'm pretty sure FRFSRF only affects lasguns and hotshot lasguns. But I won't have any relics or WL traits on my guard, except maybe the CP regen one..
It does only effect lasguns, but with Laurals it means that you *can combine FRFSRF with the Mordian "Form a Firing Squad" order to target charaters. While plasma does not benefit from FRFSRF, it does get effected by "Form A Firing Squad" as it is a rapid fire weapon.
Laurels of Command combined with Master of Command allows to you issue orders to three units and on 4+ to stack orders on such units.
I play my infantry as Vostroya and having 30" weapons (especially plasmas), that reroll 1s to hit and 1s to wound, along with 32 lasgun shots that do the same is nothing to scoff at, and this is only a single squad. You can have 3 (4 with a stratagem) to do the exact same thing.
You can combine regimental orders this way, or fall back from close combat and still return fire with FRFSRF, advance and fire FRFSRF and so on... It can be quite nasty of you roll those 4+.
Take Veterans, give them 3 plasmas, throw in a search light or the new BSF psyker, roll good on those 4+s and you have guardsmen hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, and wounding on 2s (Overloaded plasma), rerolling 1s. Very powerful in low-point games.
E// FRFSRF affects only Lasguns / HotShot Lasguns.
Hawky wrote: Laurels of Command combined with Master of Command allows to you issue orders to three units and on 4+ to stack orders on such units.
I play my infantry as Vostroya and having 30" weapons (especially plasmas), that reroll 1s to hit and 1s to wound, along with 32 lasgun shots that do the same is nothing to scoff at, and this is only a single squad. You can have 3 (4 with a stratagem) to do the exact same thing.
You can combine regimental orders this way, or fall back from close combat and still return fire with FRFSRF, advance and fire FRFSRF and so on... It can be quite nasty of you roll those 4+.
Take Veterans, give them 3 plasmas, throw in a search light or the new BSF psyker, roll good on those 4+s and you have guardsmen hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, and wounding on 2s (Overloaded plasma), rerolling 1s. Very powerful in low-point games.
E// FRFSRF affects only Lasguns / HotShot Lasguns.
How are you getting RR 1's to hit/wound and FRFSRF on a single unit? Only way I know is to have a character like Yarrick providing reroll 1 to hit and then ordering FRFSRF/bring it down if you're lucky.
While I love the idea of Laurels, I find it very risky to rely on and often not worth the CP to try and ensure it goes off. That 50/50 chance could not go off a single time in a turn and there's no way of knowing if you have it until you're committed. Which means you normally are doing Form Firing Line or FRFSRF first and then crossing your fingers your plan works. Not a great way to run a guard army unfortunately.
That said, Laurels combined with the Cadian WLT can be potentially powerful on something like a tank commander. Start with two orders, on a 4+ give the same order to an additional unit for free, and each of those orders can proc an additional order on the same unit. You're looking at up to 4 tanks getting 2 orders a piece if lucky, most likely 3 tanks ordered (using the extra order strat) with 1-2 getting a second. This could be reroll shots/pop smoke which is very powerful, or do reroll hit of 1 and shots, etc. Downside of course is a tank commander warlord that quite obviously needs to die asap, but a fun trick for tank armies, and possibly a way to distract from Pask and another tank commander with hammer of sunderance. Unfortunately you can't do a shooting order and then do full throttle thanks to how the order phase works, that would be insanely powerful.
How are you getting RR 1's to hit/wound and FRFSRF on a single unit? Only way I know is to have a character like Yarrick providing reroll 1 to hit and then ordering FRFSRF/bring it down if you're lucky.
I don't think he meant he's doing all 3 orders at once, although Cadian's can do some order shenanigans like that with the Cadian WL trait (effect an addition Cadian unti on a +4) trait and Laurals. Order unit 1, trigger WL to effect unti 2, trigger Laurals for unit 1, trigger WL again to effect unit. 2. This is all off 1 order. Now you can actually order unit 2 and reverse it, hence you have essentally gotten 4 orders off for a single unit.
I also usually would trigger FRFSRF first and try for Form Firing Squad if possible, so if it triggers, great, if not, I still get shots off
with Laurels of Command relic, you can stack multiple orders on one unit, you just need to roll 4+ for each new order, and you can keep stacking as long as you pass the roll. So you order FRFSRF, then roll, Then you order them reroll 1s to hit, then roll again, then order them to reroll 1s to wound... You get the idea.
So if you are lucky, you can have a single <Infantry> unit to shoot twice as much and reroll both 1s to hit and wound. You just need to pass 2 4+ rolls to achieve that.
And you can't have Laurels of Command on a Tank Commander IIRC. TC can't order Infantry and it has only 3 orders to choose from anyway.
Hawky wrote: with Laurels of Command relic, you can stack multiple orders on one unit, you just need to roll 4+ for each new order, and you can keep stacking as long as you pass the roll. So you order FRFSRF, then roll, Then you order them reroll 1s to hit, then roll again, then order them to reroll 1s to wound... You get the idea.
So if you are lucky, you can have a single <Infantry> unit to shoot twice as much and reroll both 1s to hit and wound. You just need to pass 2 4+ rolls to achieve that.
And you can't have Laurels of Command on a Tank Commander IIRC.
Thats not how that works. At most you're getting two on a unit. There is an explicit FAQ for this occurrence.
I would have to ask you for a citation. I just looked on a GW site, IG codex eratta and it has three entries on the Laurels of Command. I might have been getting wrong the no. 1, but shooting first with frfsrf, then shooting again normally but rerolling 1s etc.. seems odd to me. Or I don't get the wording. Enlighten me, please.
1) Q: Can I use The Laurels of Command to issue the same order
twice to the same unit?
A: No, the second order issued must be a different order.
2) Q: If I issue an order to a unit with an Officer who has the
Laurels of Command, and I roll a 4+ to issue another order
to the same unit, do I resolve the first order before issuing
the second?
A: Yes.
3) How do The Laurels of Command and Superior Tactical
Training interact? (not posting it whole, as its a wall of text)
Yeah read the orders in your codex and you'll see that most of the shooting orders just say "when you shoot, apply x from order" as opposed to Move Move Move and Fix Bayonets which require you to resolve their effects immediately.
Forgot laurels doesn't work on tank commanders, shame, that would've actually been useful for that relic.
Apple Peel wrote: How do you guys feel about 5-man squads with grenade launchers for beefier objective grabbers/reinforcements?
I assume you're talking Scions as Infantry squads can only be taken in 10 man squads.
A 5 man squad is not going to be nearly as survivable as a 10 man Guard squad under the same circumstances. A 10 man Scion squad will be more survivable, relatively speaking (unless you're up against Imperial Fists).
I'm thinking of trying a Scion battalion with three 10 man squads to take a far away objective (or reinforce one I have). This would be on top of three Catachan Battalions (9 Infantry squads), one with a Basalisk and 1cp spent to make it an Emperor's Wrath detachment, and a Russ Spearhead with Emperor's Fist and a second Tank Commander with a Demolisher Cannon.
Apple Peel wrote: How do you guys feel about 5-man squads with grenade launchers for beefier objective grabbers/reinforcements?
I assume you're talking Scions as Infantry squads can only be taken in 10 man squads.
A 5 man squad is not going to be nearly as survivable as a 10 man Guard squad under the same circumstances. A 10 man Scion squad will be more survivable, relatively speaking (unless you're up against Imperial Fists).
I'm thinking of trying a Scion battalion with three 10 man squads to take a far away objective (or reinforce one I have). This would be on top of three Catachan Battalions (9 Infantry squads), one with a Basalisk and 1cp spent to make it an Emperor's Wrath detachment, and a Russ Spearhead with Emperor's Fist and a second Tank Commander with a Demolisher Cannon.
I’m building a Militarum Tempestus list, and with Chapter Approved and some changes, I now have 170 points free. I need to fill the space. Minimum Scion squads for late objective grabbing are popular, but I wonder if giving them grenade launchers for just an extra six points would be good on one or two squads.
Apple Peel wrote: How do you guys feel about 5-man squads with grenade launchers for beefier objective grabbers/reinforcements?
I assume you're talking Scions as Infantry squads can only be taken in 10 man squads.
A 5 man squad is not going to be nearly as survivable as a 10 man Guard squad under the same circumstances. A 10 man Scion squad will be more survivable, relatively speaking (unless you're up against Imperial Fists).
I'm thinking of trying a Scion battalion with three 10 man squads to take a far away objective (or reinforce one I have). This would be on top of three Catachan Battalions (9 Infantry squads), one with a Basalisk and 1cp spent to make it an Emperor's Wrath detachment, and a Russ Spearhead with Emperor's Fist and a second Tank Commander with a Demolisher Cannon.
I’m building a Militarum Tempestus list, and with Chapter Approved and some changes, I now have 170 points free. I need to fill the space. Minimum Scion squads for late objective grabbing are popular, but I wonder if giving them grenade launchers for just an extra six points would be good on one or two squads.
Grenade launchers are so bad may as well just bring another guy or opt for plasma pistol. Unless you already have some built or just think they look cool, they're useless on scions. Either opt for plasma pistol or keep em barebones.
I need your opinion in choosing an army and a playing style for an escalation league. My two armies are custodes and IG, and for the love of god, I can't choose between them. The league is escalation, 500 base, plus 250 every round until 1500 in 5th. Missions are custom, based on the narrative, but generally objective based. Everyone has 11 CP, detachments are not used (1 HQ 2 troop minimum, that's it), rule of 3, fixed warlord, no LoW, armies must be built on the previous one, so the escalation means expansion of previous list. Also, units with FLY will not be able to capture.
Do you have any insights on how should I narrow down my search for a list I'd be successful with? I was thinking of a pure madness list of 100 guardsmen plus commanders for the first battle, then add armor slowly but steadily - this would be a fun way to play. Problem is, I will always have to include these guys in the upcoming matches as well.
I need your opinion in choosing an army and a playing style for an escalation league. My two armies are custodes and IG, and for the love of god, I can't choose between them. The league is escalation, 500 base, plus 250 every round until 1500 in 5th. Missions are custom, based on the narrative, but generally objective based. Everyone has 11 CP, detachments are not used (1 HQ 2 troop minimum, that's it), rule of 3, fixed warlord, no LoW, armies must be built on the previous one, so the escalation means expansion of previous list. Also, units with FLY will not be able to capture.
Do you have any insights on how should I narrow down my search for a list I'd be successful with? I was thinking of a pure madness list of 100 guardsmen plus commanders for the first battle, then add armor slowly but steadily - this would be a fun way to play. Problem is, I will always have to include these guys in the upcoming matches as well.
Thank you for your help in advance.
Well, the Guardsmen would be useful later on anyways. The question is how much firepower do you want versus bodies to hold objectives. I'd recommend something in the early game, perhaps a Tank Commander, to dedicate to taking out things that can threaten your blob of Guardsmen.
EDIT: I think I should point out: you will lose Guardsmen. You will always lose Guardsmen. But there are still things that can annihilate 4+ Guard Squads a turn, so you need something to take that out.
Obviously split into 3 battalions. Tournament is 1750 im working toward.
I know im 5pts over.
Just curious thoughts. Thanks!
Would strongly recommend finding 60pts for 3x sets of plasma cannons sponsons for the tank commanders, particularly as you're lacking anti tank. They're a phenomenal firepower increase for just 60pts, are better with catachan (reroll no. of shots) and are particularly strong as there are so many SM players around these days! And if those astropaths are just there to buff the bullgryns, find another 15pts for a psychic maelstrom astropath. That 15pts investment can make many times its points cost back against most armies, gives you another nuisance character and another psychic denial.
Interesting but seems like a tank commander outperforms 2 basilisks. Can alao drop harker and save 60ish points then.
Now to assemble them all with sponsons.
Can I take 4/5 Tank Commanders if I change up the loadout? As in Punisher Gatling Cannon, Demolisher and Battle Tanks?
Main reason you take Basalisks is to fire out of LoS and to use the Vigilus Emperor's Wrath Artillery detachment and all of the goodies (no cover, fire twice, etc). The other reason to bring at least one is that it's the only hard counter we have against Eliminators, which snipe our characters.
My understanding is the Rule of Three is an optional rule for matched play games. That said, I always build my lists around it in order to avoid any issues. The rule is that you can't bring more than three of any datasheet, other than troops, which means you can't bring more than three Tank Commanders, Company Commanders, Astropaths, etc. Loadout does not matter, it's a hard three regardless of how they're equipped.
That said, you can bring 9 of the regular Leman Russ Tanks as those datasheets each allow you to bring a squadron of up to three, so 3x3 =9 tanks.
Ranged or close Gunboat. Transportation restriction makes carrying support characters pretty much non-existent. Transport capacity is bad as a concept this edition, so not very good here. Could use Crush Them to ram into something.
I am using the Lightning Strike Fighter but am not sure which loadouts I can take. In Battlescribe I can choose to use the Long-barreled autocannon and either 4 or 6 Hellstrike missiles. Looking at the Index I only find a datasheet in which I have to take the LBautocannon and can use 4 hellstrike missles (not 6). Where do the other options in Battlescribe come from?
Singleton Mosby wrote: I am using the Lightning Strike Fighter but am not sure which loadouts I can take. In Battlescribe I can choose to use the Long-barreled autocannon and either 4 or 6 Hellstrike missiles. Looking at the Index I only find a datasheet in which I have to take the LBautocannon and can use 4 hellstrike missles (not 6). Where do the other options in Battlescribe come from?
From the errata.
If this model is equipped with four hellstrike missiles, it may replace its long-barrelled autocannon with two additional hellstrike missiles.
The FW books are literally not worth the paper they are printed on.
Singleton Mosby wrote: I am using the Lightning Strike Fighter but am not sure which loadouts I can take. In Battlescribe I can choose to use the Long-barreled autocannon and either 4 or 6 Hellstrike missiles. Looking at the Index I only find a datasheet in which I have to take the LBautocannon and can use 4 hellstrike missles (not 6). Where do the other options in Battlescribe come from?
From the errata.
If this model is equipped with four hellstrike missiles, it may replace its long-barrelled autocannon with two additional hellstrike missiles.
The FW books are literally not worth the paper they are printed on.
Thanks. I Googled the internet empty but could'nt find anything. Didn't think of looking for an errata.
So I recently got a lot on eBay of Guard vehicles that were painted the same scheme as I intend to paint my vehicles. However, the (currently usable) Leman Russ tanks from that lot all have glued in Heavy Bolter sponsons and Lascannons. These are also older models, so I won't be able to just swap turrets between these and my other tanks. My other Russ options are the following:
3 Hulls with no sponsons (swappable weapons)
2 hulls with sponsons (all swappable)
2 Battle Cannon turrets
1 Demolisher Turret
2 Annihilator turrets
My question is, should I run the older Russes as Tank Commanders, even with Heavy Bolter sponsons, and use the regular hulls with the Demolisher Cannon and the Battle Cannons, or should I run them as regular Russes (again with the sponsons) and use the hulls with sponsons that I have to make Demolisher and Battle Cannon Tank Commanders?
Arcanis161 wrote: So I recently got a lot on eBay of Guard vehicles that were painted the same scheme as I intend to paint my vehicles. However, the (currently usable) Leman Russ tanks from that lot all have glued in Heavy Bolter sponsons and Lascannons. These are also older models, so I won't be able to just swap turrets between these and my other tanks. My other Russ options are the following:
3 Hulls with no sponsons (swappable weapons)
2 hulls with sponsons (all swappable)
2 Battle Cannon turrets
1 Demolisher Turret
2 Annihilator turrets
My question is, should I run the older Russes as Tank Commanders, even with Heavy Bolter sponsons, and use the regular hulls with the Demolisher Cannon and the Battle Cannons, or should I run them as regular Russes (again with the sponsons) and use the hulls with sponsons that I have to make Demolisher and Battle Cannon Tank Commanders?
The turrets are what make or break tank commanders, not sponsons. If I'm stuck with a bunch of random tanks, the turrets that are best for tank commanders get allocated first, and the extra would be regular tanks, even if that meant some tanks got some weird combos.
In your case at least one battlecannon and one demolisher as TC's. The 3rd would be either a Demolisher, punisher, or depending on regiment, maybe executioner or non sunderance battlecannon. Annhilators would be a cool TC platform but sadly they're only for regular Russe's and they apparently didn't get a point drop, really hurts them. I'd still run them for fun and looks, but I'd avoid them for competitive. Demolishers are something like 35pts cheaper and put out way more shots, even if they sacrifice range to do so.
One thing regular Russe's would be good for is demolisher platforms, especially ITC in my opinion. Demolishers draw a lot of fire and only need a couple solid hits to kill most targets. Since most ITC scenarios make tank commanders gigantic points pinatas, I'd give the TC longer range weapons and use demolishers as basic tanks shoved up the board, provided you plan on using more than 3 tanks of course. You save a good chunk of points going to a regular tank and give up less points to boot for those tanks dying than a TC in a similar spot.
I was playing around with dropping my Supreme command of captains on jetbikes and instead taking a whole battalion of tempestus:
2x tempestor prime with command rods
3x 5 man squads with 2x plasma
1x 5 man commad squad with 4x plasma.
and just dropping them in to deal killing blows to lord of skulls. (my buddy and I play ITC and his new list runs 3 and if you play competitively I think they are going to make a big comeback)
Anyone had any luck just running these guys as scalpels or do they not fill that role good enough?
Edit: I run a brigade of guard that included 3x tank commanders, pask, 3x basilisks, 6x infantry, 3xscout sentinels, there is also a valkyrie gunboat. I should also add that I would run the valk in the detach and use the drop force tactics / abilities.
I have used a tempestus battalion full of plasma several times and it is IMO a good tool both to grab objectives on the mid turns and to erase a lot of armored treats (just watch out for those invuls). I have been using the following for a while:
Tempestor prime
Tempestor prime
Tempestus comand squad x 4 plasma
Tempestus comand squad x 4 plasma
Tempestus x 5
Tempestus x 5
Tempestus x 5
In total is 355p and gives you some nice tools (CP / Objective grabers / Plasma).
Greetings commanders! I could really do with some help with building my Krieg army. I know they're distant cousins to most regiments but I'm guessing you lot still know plenty about them.
I play in a big league that runs over about 20 weeks, and looking forward to the next one, I think I'm going to break out my first love, DKoK, knowing full well they're off the competitive curve. (I've been playing CWE in this one and I'm alright dialling it back a bit after feeling a bit dirty at times with what they can now do.)
I have a few questions:
Firstly, we allow for 500pts of allies - I'm weighing up 3 custodes bikes, or a single knight (Castigator perhaps), or even a pair of gmndk and crowe. So Custodes, Knight or GKs, or something else, what would be your pick? (Sorry, no Admech, can't get with the models).
Secondly, I'm thinking of going in for 2 Valkyries to drop 20 engineers and yarrick somewhere they can do the most harm. Engineers are probably the stand-out unit in the DKoK roster, and can threaten SMs like nobody's business (each two engineers equal a dead intercessor, basically). Are they at all viable now? I noticed they now have 'roving gunship' which makes them a bit more legit right? Any favourite loadouts?
Thirdly, Bullgryns. I needs some for sure, but how many? I was thinking 5 - not maximising their damage, but crutching on them instead for their durability as an excellent central assault/counter unit. Is that enough for my purposes or do I need to go all in?
Fourth, Deathriders used to be legit, but now it feels like the marine meta leaves them full of bullet holes. Would you agree?
Happy to post some sample lists if anyone's interested, but also aware that spamming them can be a bit tedious in tactica threads.
grouchoben wrote: Greetings commanders! I could really do with some help with building my Krieg army. I know they're distant cousins to most regiments but I'm guessing you lot still know plenty about them.
I play in a big league that runs over about 20 weeks, and looking forward to the next one, I think I'm going to break out my first love, DKoK, knowing full well they're off the competitive curve. (I've been playing CWE in this one and I'm alright dialling it back a bit after feeling a bit dirty at times with what they can now do.)
I have a few questions:
Firstly, we allow for 500pts of allies - I'm weighing up 3 custodes bikes, or a single knight (Castigator perhaps), or even a pair of gmndk and crowe. So Custodes, Knight or GKs, or something else, what would be your pick? (Sorry, no Admech, can't get with the models).
Secondly, I'm thinking of going in for 2 Valkyries to drop 20 engineers and yarrick somewhere they can do the most harm. Engineers are probably the stand-out unit in the DKoK roster, and can threaten SMs like nobody's business (each two engineers equal a dead intercessor, basically). Are they at all viable now? I noticed they now have 'roving gunship' which makes them a bit more legit right? Any favourite loadouts?
Thirdly, Bullgryns. I needs some for sure, but how many? I was thinking 5 - not maximising their damage, but crutching on them instead for their durability as an excellent central assault/counter unit. Is that enough for my purposes or do I need to go all in?
Fourth, Deathriders used to be legit, but now it feels like the marine meta leaves them full of bullet holes. Would you agree?
Happy to post some sample lists if anyone's interested, but also aware that spamming them can be a bit tedious in tactica threads.
Many thanks in advance.
Bullgryns are solid i run 7 with priest and astropath. Deathriders are fast but die way to quick.
grouchoben wrote: Greetings commanders! I could really do with some help with building my Krieg army. I know they're distant cousins to most regiments but I'm guessing you lot still know plenty about them.
I play in a big league that runs over about 20 weeks, and looking forward to the next one, I think I'm going to break out my first love, DKoK, knowing full well they're off the competitive curve. (I've been playing CWE in this one and I'm alright dialling it back a bit after feeling a bit dirty at times with what they can now do.)
I have a few questions:
Firstly, we allow for 500pts of allies - I'm weighing up 3 custodes bikes, or a single knight (Castigator perhaps), or even a pair of gmndk and crowe. So Custodes, Knight or GKs, or something else, what would be your pick? (Sorry, no Admech, can't get with the models).
Secondly, I'm thinking of going in for 2 Valkyries to drop 20 engineers and yarrick somewhere they can do the most harm. Engineers are probably the stand-out unit in the DKoK roster, and can threaten SMs like nobody's business (each two engineers equal a dead intercessor, basically). Are they at all viable now? I noticed they now have 'roving gunship' which makes them a bit more legit right? Any favourite loadouts?
Thirdly, Bullgryns. I needs some for sure, but how many? I was thinking 5 - not maximising their damage, but crutching on them instead for their durability as an excellent central assault/counter unit. Is that enough for my purposes or do I need to go all in?
Fourth, Deathriders used to be legit, but now it feels like the marine meta leaves them full of bullet holes. Would you agree?
Happy to post some sample lists if anyone's interested, but also aware that spamming them can be a bit tedious in tactica threads.
Many thanks in advance.
Bullgryns are solid i run 7 with priest and astropath. Deathriders are fast but die way to quick.
Agreed Deathriders die quickly but I'm liking them (I'm running rough riders - don't have the book in front of me but I assume they have the same come in from a board edge ability) better than the scout sentinels I usually take to fill my FA slot. Being able to magically appear along a board edge to get line breaker or start moving on to an objective can be very useful. You just need to make good use of los blockers and cover. Usually by turn 3 either I'm being totally routed or I've killed enough that the rough riders can go do their business for the remainder of the game.
I prefer the tallarn armor sentinels with autocannons for marines. But my local meta is very marine heavy. Or mutlilasers for cheap. Its also easier to hide a single sentinel and use them for recon ITC mission than it is a blob of horses.
Death Riders punch hard on the charge, and have some kind of defence against bolters spam with their S4>disgustingly resilient rule, and before the SM meta I had quite a lot of success with them (relative to their points). But they're the kind of unit that has really suffered. It's pretty trivial for most SM lists to put them down.
Yeah you can flank with them if you bring a deathrider command squad, but you're talking more of a points investment, minimum of 68pts, and you're bringing them to do damage (with no charge bonus) rather than just board control.
Anyone got experience running a tank commander as warlord?
I'm thinking of running a valhallan tank commander as my warlord. Probably not a competitive choice I know, due to being targetable and relatively fragile, but it'd be for the rule of cool. That being said, what would be the best warlord trait? I'd like to put the hammer of sunderance on it to give it some flexibility hunting heavy infantry and light/medium vehicles and monsters. I'm thinking either the vallhallan/BRB trait to ignore wounds on sixes or Old Grudges. Any thoughts?
ArikTaranis wrote: Anyone got experience running a tank commander as warlord?
I'm thinking of running a valhallan tank commander as my warlord. Probably not a competitive choice I know, due to being targetable and relatively fragile, but it'd be for the rule of cool. That being said, what would be the best warlord trait? I'd like to put the hammer of sunderance on it to give it some flexibility hunting heavy infantry and light/medium vehicles and monsters. I'm thinking either the vallhallan/BRB trait to ignore wounds on sixes or Old Grudges. Any thoughts?
For purely tactical reasons, don't give warlord hammer of sunderance. Whichever tank carries that will be drawing a lot of fire. Better to make him a secondary tank so he's not drawing all the heat at once. Master of command is a great trait for TC's, especially with a thematic armored company where your regular tanks outnumber the commanders quite a bit. Old grudges is also good on occasion to help cover Valhallans lack of rerolls, only issue is it only works on a single unit and telegraphs what you plan to do. Another one worth considering is the vigilus tank wlt. A tank company will find that really useful sometimes. Not every game, but it can matter.
Really that's Valhallans Achilles heel, they lack offensive punch. They can take hits, they have utility, and they can get out of tighter spots than most, but they just don't have that massive firepower an army like Catachan or cadians have. Anything you can take to fix that is key for Valhallans. Heck it's such a big deal I found myself running Yarrick sometimes just to eek out a little more damage.
ArikTaranis wrote: Anyone got experience running a tank commander as warlord?
I'm thinking of running a valhallan tank commander as my warlord. Probably not a competitive choice I know, due to being targetable and relatively fragile, but it'd be for the rule of cool. That being said, what would be the best warlord trait? I'd like to put the hammer of sunderance on it to give it some flexibility hunting heavy infantry and light/medium vehicles and monsters. I'm thinking either the vallhallan/BRB trait to ignore wounds on sixes or Old Grudges. Any thoughts?
Yeah. Don't do it. hes over 12 wounds and gives up slay the warlord T1 easy. Just give it to a Company Cmdr instead.
Haven't played 40k for 1,5 year or so, but want to end the hiatus to see my Wargames Atlantic Raumjagers (aka, not!Armageddon Steel Legion) in action. I already have a buckload of Catachans, so thought of combining them with Armageddon. This is my first idea:
Armageddon Battailon:
HQ
Company Commander with Boltgun, Warlord Grand Strategist
Lord Commissar with Boltgun and Powerfist
TROOPS
Infantry Squad, Sergeant with Boltgun
Infantry Squad, Sergeant with Boltgun
Infantry Squad, Sergeant with Boltgun
ELITES
Platoon Commander with Boltgun
Platoon Commander with Boltgun
Veteran Squad, Sergeant with Boltgun, 3 Plas Veteran Squad, Sergeant with Boltgun, 3 Plas
Chimera, 2 H.Bolters
Chimera, 2 H.Bolters
Catachan Battalion, Emperor's Wrath:
HQ
Company Commander, Boltgun, Kurov's Aquila
Tank Commander, Executioner PlasCannon, 2 PlasCannons, H.Bolter
TROOPS
Infantry Squad, Sergeant with Boltgun
Infantry Squad, Sergeant with Boltgun
Infantry Squad, Sergeant with Boltgun
ELITES
Harker
Platoon Commander, Boltgun
4 Bullgrys, 2 with Brute Shield, 2 with Slab Shield, Mauls
HEAVY SUPPORT
Basilisk
Basilisk
LR Executioner, 2 PlasCannons, H.Bolter
Capping at 1499 points and 12 CPs.
The idea is that the Armageddon Veterans go for overcharged PlasMEQ Hunting whereas the LR and Basilisks shoot from the distance, re-rolling ones thanks to Harker. The 6 bare bones infantry Squads screen the tanks and grab objectives, whereas the Bullgryns are to be kept as a response troop if CC and/or tank hunters should get close to my tanks.
My main concern at first glance - after being out of practice, mind - is that even with 2 LR and 2 Basilisks, the list might lack heavy fire power.
Thoughts and suggestions?
I got a question. Last year I read somewhere in this thread that units disembarking from a valk using the "grav chute" ability had to disembark 9" away from enemy's. I can't find this in any of the FAQ's, only that they cannot move after disembarking like that. Does anyone know where is says that they have to be 9" away too?
Robcio wrote: I got a question. Last year I read somewhere in this thread that units disembarking from a valk using the "grav chute" ability had to disembark 9" away from enemy's. I can't find this in any of the FAQ's, only that they cannot move after disembarking like that. Does anyone know where is says that they have to be 9" away too?
Robcio wrote: I got a question. Last year I read somewhere in this thread that units disembarking from a valk using the "grav chute" ability had to disembark 9" away from enemy's. I can't find this in any of the FAQ's, only that they cannot move after disembarking like that. Does anyone know where is says that they have to be 9" away too?
Look at the AM Codex rules for the Valkyrie.
I did.... -_-
Then an faq that stated what I said, but nothing on what someone said before on this thread, I guess they can disembark wherever, they just can't move after
Robcio wrote: I got a question. Last year I read somewhere in this thread that units disembarking from a valk using the "grav chute" ability had to disembark 9" away from enemy's. I can't find this in any of the FAQ's, only that they cannot move after disembarking like that. Does anyone know where is says that they have to be 9" away too?
Look at the AM Codex rules for the Valkyrie.
I did.... -_-
Then an faq that stated what I said, but nothing on what someone said before on this thread, I guess they can disembark wherever, they just can't move after
The AM Codex dataslate for the Valkyrie tells you that models that use the grav chute rule to disembark cannot setup within 9" of an enemy unit.
Robcio wrote: I got a question. Last year I read somewhere in this thread that units disembarking from a valk using the "grav chute" ability had to disembark 9" away from enemy's. I can't find this in any of the FAQ's, only that they cannot move after disembarking like that. Does anyone know where is says that they have to be 9" away too?
Look at the AM Codex rules for the Valkyrie.
I did.... -_-
Then an faq that stated what I said, but nothing on what someone said before on this thread, I guess they can disembark wherever, they just can't move after
The AM Codex dataslate for the Valkyrie tells you that models that use the grav chute rule to disembark cannot setup within 9" of an enemy unit.
On the note about grav chute insertion I've been looking for the FAQ that states they can't move after dropping but looking in the official GWFAQ pages I can't find it, which FAQ is it located in? I like to print them out and keep them with my books for easy reference.
grouchoben wrote: GW have announced a rework of FW rules with their own books... all I can think is Kriieeeeeg
I really really hope so. And i want rough riders.
FW rules do not have a very good track record in this edition. Let's just hope they are not as bad as the index, which is probably the worst GW book I own. So many errors and weird things.
grouchoben wrote: GW have announced a rework of FW rules with their own books... all I can think is Kriieeeeeg
I really really hope so. And i want rough riders.
FW rules do not have a very good track record in this edition. Let's just hope they are not as bad as the index, which is probably the worst GW book I own. So many errors and weird things.
Well, the FW indexes were pretty clearly written last second before 8th released. I get the feeling they were sitting there writing stuff like fires of Cyraxis with 7th in mind and GW just kicked down the door two months before launch and says "hey we're completely redoing the game in two months, we need you to write indexes for every model you've ever made without any idea of how 8th actually plays. Here's the free rules booklet, you have a week to get it done." Would explain a lot. FW isn't the main team so probably had little idea 8th was coming and I doubt their team had time to playtest at all, especially with a collection as eclectic as the FW range.
However, this time it's being written by the same team that writes all the codexes, supplements, and Pyschic awakening for regular 40k. So it *should* be to the same standard we know and love for the regular codexes. Let's just hope the team that wrote the space wolf codex and was in charge of proofreading it doesn't touch any of our FW stuff
On the bright side, this should be the final nail in the coffin of anyone attempting to say FW isn't allowed because it's not GW. The rules are being fully handled by GW now. I know people will still have hangups about it here and there, but hopefully it'll mean you can run FW on a regular basis in pickup games and tournaments without worry for the most part.
What I'm curious to see is if these are index 2.0's or proper campaign books, and if we see stuff like Krieg getting the proper regiment treatment on par with what a guard codex regiment gets. So for example the regiment trait adds an ability for vehicles, and then they get a WLT, relic, special order, the works. I've got a good amount of FW stuff, especially flyers, so I'm anxious to see if they fix the vendetta or work to ensure more vehicles properly work with the regular regiment traits.
MrMoustaffa wrote: On the bright side, this should be the final nail in the coffin of anyone attempting to say FW isn't allowed because it's not GW.
I think we both know that will never happen. It could shift the balance even more in FW's favour, but I think that at the heat-death of the universe, one psychic ascended gas cloud will be trying to argue that you can't use your Arvus Lighters.
So it sounds like this PA book will be the astra militarum book but it doesn’t sound like we are getting any new models. Was kinda hoping for a new basilisk dual build kit or some new hero.
gungo wrote: So it sounds like this PA book will be the astra militarum book but it doesn’t sound like we are getting any new models. Was kinda hoping for a new basilisk dual build kit or some new hero.
