In case it's of interest I played vs IG with my valorous heart sisters. In short: I got royally screwed by the range advantage. IG was able to keep distance with ease(helped by deployment zone). However being valorous heart all those battle cannons and earthshaker cannons were fairly useless with me saving on 3+ them. If you can try take out imagifiers(characters with big banner) if you can so that -2 armour save starts to affect.
What did scare the crap out of me was punisher. 49 shots at S5 is just what T3 3+/6+++ ignore up to -2 hates. Those were scything through my poor sisters like nothing. These will be your primary damage dealers vs sisters(though ordered lasguns will also be helpful since they have just T3 and AP0 is perfect anyway) so protect them at all cost. Remember sisters can drop seraphim with 6" melta pistols that can get extra range when they drop in so don't forget your screens(I did not have yet those as no models on sale yet).
Sisters will soak up damage with ease but being primarily 12"/24" weapon ranges you can limit damage in return for a while. -3 AP weapons will be handy vs their anti tank tanks who will also be ignoring -2 modifiers and will basically fire 3d3 S8 lascannons each.
I'm sure in PA we will get a new character, or at least a new sculpt of an existing model. I'm fairly sure everyone has gotten something in PA (craftworld and DE got redone banshees and incubi, iirc)
Fisheyes wrote: I'm sure in PA we will get a new character, or at least a new sculpt of an existing model. I'm fairly sure everyone has gotten something in PA (craftworld and DE got redone banshees and incubi, iirc)
Not everybody has got model. Eldar and DE got models. Blood angels got, tyranids didn't. Chaos got in PA2, black templars didn't. Dark angels got in PA4, grey kngiths and thousand sons didn't. In PA5 tau got new models, cult got start collecting set and previously in boxed set model came but IG doesn't look to be getting. Though guess theory is right but GW has only stated A hero will lead the book. In PA6 ghaz is coming and looks a lot like that's it.
IG will get new rules though. Likely build your own regiment rules, warlord traits, relics and stratagems like tyranids etc. Maybe solo bonus if you don't soup like GK and marines got.
Well it's not 100% official yet and seeing Ghaz comes with gretchin model as well that's already pushing the "1 model per book" idea though since they are coming likely in same box guess could still fit. But also odd no space wolf character(marines don't get character?)...
So there's still some hope but wouldn't hold out yet. But one would assume something would be shown by now if something comes. Also nothing on preorders this saturday so what? Surprise release week later from book?
Whelp first reveal we got is a 1cp strat that gives an infantry unit -1 to hit if it's near bullgryn. Sounds cool, but niche. I'm trying to think of serious ways to use it. Best I can come up with is helping protect a character from sniping (although if you're close enough to use this you should be close enough to just, you know, physically hide the model behind the bullgryn) perhaps you could run ogryn behind the bullgryn and use this, but that seems pointless. Other than that you have guardsmen, and most units don't have enough wounds for a measly -1 to hit to matter. Maybe a conscript screen for Valhallans to make them more annoying to remove, but I'm kind of grasping at straws here. Am I missing something with this?
MrMoustaffa wrote: Whelp first reveal we got is a 1cp strat that gives an infantry unit -1 to hit if it's near bullgryn. Sounds cool, but niche. I'm trying to think of serious ways to use it. Best I can come up with is helping protect a character from sniping (although if you're close enough to use this you should be close enough to just, you know, physically hide the model behind the bullgryn) perhaps you could run ogryn behind the bullgryn and use this, but that seems pointless. Other than that you have guardsmen, and most units don't have enough wounds for a measly -1 to hit to matter. Maybe a conscript screen for Valhallans to make them more annoying to remove, but I'm kind of grasping at straws here. Am I missing something with this?
Same to save a character from sniping as they won get mortal wounds on 6's
Consrcip blob, or using a single bullgryn bodyguard and tuck him out of LoS and then have a 9 man blob of bullgryn out in the open with Pychic Barrier and NIghtshourd, then use this stratagem to give them another -1 to hit, but thats assuming your opponent is actually trying to kill them.
take 2 min-mid size units of bullgryns. advance them up the center of the board, cast Nightshroud on the one furthest forward then pop the strat and take cover! over on the other one when the enemy targets them. You now have 2 units of -1 to hit bullgryns in the middle of the board, one of them with an additional +1 to their save.
Requires a heavy point investment however. That said I can see an argument for splitting a 6 man or larger bullgryn squad in two to try and take advantage of the strat where possible though there's an obvious trade off in pyschic and priest buffs for running 2 units.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Whelp first reveal we got is a 1cp strat that gives an infantry unit -1 to hit if it's near bullgryn. Sounds cool, but niche. I'm trying to think of serious ways to use it. Best I can come up with is helping protect a character from sniping (although if you're close enough to use this you should be close enough to just, you know, physically hide the model behind the bullgryn) perhaps you could run ogryn behind the bullgryn and use this, but that seems pointless. Other than that you have guardsmen, and most units don't have enough wounds for a measly -1 to hit to matter. Maybe a conscript screen for Valhallans to make them more annoying to remove, but I'm kind of grasping at straws here. Am I missing something with this?
Same to save a character from sniping as they won get mortal wounds on 6's
Consrcip blob, or using a single bullgryn bodyguard and tuck him out of LoS and then have a 9 man blob of bullgryn out in the open with Pychic Barrier and NIghtshourd, then use this stratagem to give them another -1 to hit, but thats assuming your opponent is actually trying to kill them.
COuld be good with scions as well.
So, going to respond to your ideas in order. Not intending to come across as snarky, just pointing out issues and why I didn't consider those
1. Doesn't affect snipers at all, mortals are done on wound not hit. Otherwise I could run Admech transuranic arquebuses that could mortal wound any target in the game on a 3+ thanks to all their hit buffs. There may be a few that do it on hit, but I'm unaware of them.
2.doesnt work with ogryn bodyguard. Even if you kit him exactly like a bullgryn, he never gets bullgryn keyword. Otherwise a bullgryn bodyguard backing up a bullgryn unit would be amazing. Conscripts could be useful, but I don't really like wasting CP on them. I guess if there's a blob you know you positively need to survive it could be useful combined with take cover, pyschic barrier, and nightshroud. That makes a conscript unit at -2 to hit with a 3+ armor save, but that's a lot of investment.
3. Seems rare stormtroopers would be near bullgryn, but in niche scenarios where you think only a couple stormbolters are shooting at them or something it could be worthwhile. Remember, you need to be 3" away from the unit you wish to give this to, that means basically touching in combat terms.
I think like gbghg said, the most practical use is say two squads of bullgryn and use this as a way to buff both. One squad gets nightshroud and pyschic barrier, the less likely to be shot squad gets the strategems if need be. You now have two squads with +1 armor and -1 to hit, one of which has 3+ invuln saves and the other a 4+. The problem with stacking all the buffs onto one squad just means the opponent will shoot the non buffed squad, so you have to spread them out. Keep in mind, you can do this already to a single big squad of 9 bullgryn already, and for less CP.
Question is if it's really worth it to run two smaller bullgryn squads that you need to invest 2cp and 2 pyskers a turn to keep running at peak efficiency. Granted you get slightly more attacks and can split them up for flexibility, but you're investing more things into keeping them alive as well. I guess if you're going for a super ogryn bomb like two maxed squads out of a gorgon or something it could be fun, but I don't see someone running 18 ogryn on anything less than a casual or Apocalypse game anytime soon.
Yeah, this is gonna be a niche strat for pure guard armies I think. More of "I'd rather this unit lived and the bullgryns just happened to be nearby" than something you plan around. It a gonna be cheasy as help in soup though, people have already noted -2 to hit custodes or -1 to hit centurions. Infantry is a very broad keyword and someone will undoubtedly find something disgusting to pair it with, if not in gw then in fw.
I don't know whether or not it will actually apply for soup, since it's an Astra Militarum stratagem for an Infantry unit--not applying to the Bullgryn.
The strat specifies "an infantry unit from your army" mentions nothing else about limiting the targeting to AM. The AM stratagem bit just limits you to only being able to use the strat if you have an AM detachment iirc.
Edit: Also, if the strat was meant to only affect AM it would be keyword "ASTRA MILATARUM INFANTRY" like "Take Cover!". In any case I half expect GW to FAQ the strat to exactly that in a couple of months when someone makes a nasty combo with it and takes it to a major tourney. (Also i just checked and wulfen have "Infantry" so are an eligible target for the strat, would help a blob of them survive their run up the board)
MrMoustaffa wrote: Whelp first reveal we got is a 1cp strat that gives an infantry unit -1 to hit if it's near bullgryn. Sounds cool, but niche. I'm trying to think of serious ways to use it. Best I can come up with is helping protect a character from sniping (although if you're close enough to use this you should be close enough to just, you know, physically hide the model behind the bullgryn) perhaps you could run ogryn behind the bullgryn and use this, but that seems pointless. Other than that you have guardsmen, and most units don't have enough wounds for a measly -1 to hit to matter. Maybe a conscript screen for Valhallans to make them more annoying to remove, but I'm kind of grasping at straws here. Am I missing something with this?
Bullgryn has legs open etc. It's pretty much impossible to physically block LOS to model with another model. Put rhino looking at enemy. Put infantry model behind that's shorter than rhino. Out of LOS? Nope. You get line BELOW rhino.
If there's even 1mm shown from some part of enemy(including base) to your model(including base) then you are in LOS.
As for idea for using it to shield custodians...I would wait for FAQ before investing any cash over that combo
I don't like that the strat they preview is pretty much useless for pure guard, and is great for souping them in. Not sure it bodes well for the rest of their supplement.
grouchoben wrote: I don't like that the strat they preview is pretty much useless for pure guard, and is great for souping them in. Not sure it 0.
So far this PA is a pile of s...t. Least fun army to play against in the game, Tau, get great stuff, other two armies get pure junk...
It most def does NOT bode well for the rest of the supplement... I was expecting somehin along these lines, but not so badly... Let's hope the rest proves this hunch wrong
The new bulgryn strat is actually useful on scions. Scions also want to be on the front lines and usually once they drop die horribly. This allows you to drop in behind your bullgryn and have an extra layer of durability from shooting.
On normal infantry and characters though that strat is useless. Eliminators and assassins don't care about the hit mod really, at least not on such squishy targets, and you can get an entire infantry squads for less then one bulgryn.
Nah this strat was made for scions but will be abused by soup 9/10 times.
Tank Aces, which is like the Tyranid Phsyiological Adaptations, I dont know if giving up WLT would be worth the 2nd, as Grand Stratagist is pretty solid. Plasma Executioner with the -1 AP can blow through Marine Armor save and kill the primaris.
Super Heavies can get REgiment doctrines now, thats nice.
12 custom regiments would like to see what else they got.
This looks like a solid start so far.
Tank Aces, which is like the Tyranid Phsyiological Adaptations, I dont know if giving up WLT would be worth the 2nd, as Grand Stratagist is pretty solid. Plasma Executioner with the -1 AP can blow through Marine Armor save and kill the primaris.
Super Heavies can get REgiment doctrines now, thats nice.
12 custom regiments would like to see what else they got.
This looks like a solid start so far.
That Sentinel stratagem looks really tempting with Plasma cannons. Even non-tallarn Sentinels would have perfectly safe plasma on the move. And also hunter killer missiles hitting on 2+ (if standing still or Tallarn): yes please!
So what, you want to drop a 5 man Scion squad WITH Tempestor Prime just to shoot some S3 AP-2 shots at something? What will that do? And if you want to drop a larger squad in, that's a lot of points to just shoot fancy lasguns and then easily die. The cost-benefit ratio doesn't seem worth it.
Colonel Cross wrote: So what, you want to drop a 5 man Scion squad WITH Tempestor Prime just to shoot some S3 AP-2 shots at something? What will that do? And if you want to drop a larger squad in, that's a lot of points to just shoot fancy lasguns and then easily die. The cost-benefit ratio doesn't seem worth it.
Actually:
2 units of 10 Scion plus a Tempestor with rod is just 180 points and averages 11,8 marine wounds,Some examples:
Tactical squad: 11.8 x 12 (points per wound) = 141.6 (points killed)
Intercesors: 11.8 x 17/2 = 100.3
Incursors: 11.8 x 19/2 = 112.1
Infiltrators: 11.8 x 22/2 = 129.8
Reivers: 11.8 x 16/2 = 94.4
Aggressors: 11.8 x 37/3 = 145.5
Suppresors: 11.8 x 30/2 = 177
Inceptors: 11.8 x 41/3 = 161.5
Is not to bad IMO, it gives some punch to cheap DS units
Thanks for showing the math on that. Guess we'll see. I wouldn't hold my breath on anyone using Scions in this manner. It would be cool if I were wrong, I have tons of Kasrkins and they're my favorite models ever.
Colonel Cross wrote: So what, you want to drop a 5 man Scion squad WITH Tempestor Prime just to shoot some S3 AP-2 shots at something? What will that do? And if you want to drop a larger squad in, that's a lot of points to just shoot fancy lasguns and then easily die. The cost-benefit ratio doesn't seem worth it.
It's not about running units with nothing but hot-shots, but the hot-shots actually being killy enough that they contribute meaningful damage instead of the special weapons having to pull all the weight. Enough that playing an entire detachement of Scions/Stormtroopers/Kasrkin actually becomes worthwhile instead of just being a deep-striking special weapons delivery service thanks to gimped small-arms. And yes, it's a hugely superior buff compared to the vanilla-Scion doctrine.
Not to mention that the doctrine means 30" plasma guns with 18" rapid fire. That's deadly even if you are footslogging and rather impossible to screen against if they deep-strike.
And yes, it makes FRFSRF on hot-shots actually very worthwhile if there is no target for Elimination Protocols around.
Also the +1 AP doctrine is pretty ace especially on plasma (both guns and the cheap pistols), -4 AP means 3+ models like Marines or tanks only get a 6+ rather than a 5+ save, which HALVES their chances of passing their save. It also gets past the -2 AP resistance of Valorous Heart with hot-shots (particularly good on the volley-gun), the currently most popular SoB Order and pretty much neuters them as they don't have much else going for them besides 6+ FnP and a strat that doesn't even do much against Guard. This will be even more the case if more regiments/orders/chapters/etc. with AP-2 immunity end up being introduced to the game.
Also AP-2 Krak and AP-1 frag grenades (including Grenade Launchers), AP -1 Flamers and an extra -1 on all melee weapons for the lulz.
Another point worth making is the 6" range doctrine lets you deepstrike outside of 12" and thus dodge all auspex scan strats, that new tau prototype system which blocks DS inside 12" etc. It's a much bigger buff than just "hotshots can rapid fire now".
Colonel Cross wrote: So what, you want to drop a 5 man Scion squad WITH Tempestor Prime just to shoot some S3 AP-2 shots at something? What will that do? And if you want to drop a larger squad in, that's a lot of points to just shoot fancy lasguns and then easily die. The cost-benefit ratio doesn't seem worth it.
It's not about running units with nothing but hot-shots, but the hot-shots actually being killy enough that they contribute meaningful damage instead of the special weapons having to pull all the weight. Enough that playing an entire detachement of Scions/Stormtroopers/Kasrkin actually becomes worthwhile instead of just being a deep-striking special weapons delivery service thanks to gimped small-arms. And yes, it's a hugely superior buff compared to the vanilla-Scion doctrine.
Not to mention that the doctrine means 30" plasma guns with 18" rapid fire. That's deadly even if you are footslogging and rather impossible to screen against if they deep-strike.
And yes, it makes FRFSRF on hot-shots actually very worthwhile if there is no target for Elimination Protocols around.
Also the +1 AP doctrine is pretty ace especially on plasma (both guns and the cheap pistols), -4 AP means 3+ models like Marines or tanks only get a 6+ rather than a 5+ save, which HALVES their chances of passing their save. It also gets past the -2 AP resistance of Valorous Heart with hot-shots (particularly good on the volley-gun), the currently most popular SoB Order and pretty much neuters them as they don't have much else going for them besides 6+ FnP and a strat that doesn't even do much against Guard. This will be even more the case if more regiments/orders/chapters/etc. with AP-2 immunity end up being introduced to the game.
Also AP-2 Krak and AP-1 frag grenades (including Grenade Launchers), AP -1 Flamers and an extra -1 on all melee weapons for the lulz.
Eh... It halves their chance (if they're in cover, otherwise it completely negates their chance of saving) but that's only actually a 25% (5+ to 6+) or 20% (6+ to nothing) increase in damage.
gbghg wrote: Another point worth making is the 6" range doctrine lets you deepstrike outside of 12" and thus dodge all auspex scan strats, that new tau prototype system which blocks DS inside 12" etc. It's a much bigger buff than just "hotshots can rapid fire now".
This is the real juicy bit of the buff. It's good to see a counter to all the anti-deepstrike shenanigans armies are receiving. It's a shame I can't use these in a Brood Brothers detachment lol
Also interesting to note the Kappic Eagles one, states "when resolving an attack made by a model with this doctrine in a turn in which it disembarked from a transport, add +1 to the hit roll". It does not specify only shooting, so you're getting +1 to hit in close combat too - nice edge for those power weapons.
Theoretically you could argue, it would also apply if they were disembarked from a destroyed transport, then got charged...
Kcalehc wrote: Also interesting to note the Kappic Eagles one, states "when resolving an attack made by a model with this doctrine in a turn in which it disembarked from a transport, add +1 to the hit roll". It does not specify only shooting, so you're getting +1 to hit in close combat too - nice edge for those power weapons.
Theoretically you could argue, it would also apply if they were disembarked from a destroyed transport, then got charged...
In the same vein it should stack with the bit from tempestus drop force so your scions are +2 to hit on the turn they jump out a valk which means plasma scions leaping out of a valk is arguably one of our better ways of killing flyers.
Man it's a tough call for Stormtroopers on if you want the +1 AP or the +6" range to rapid fire weapons, both have some very good uses. I bet you could build either to be very strong, it just depends on meta. The extra range I think will win out in utility, but AP4 plasma and ap3 hellguns is pretty tasty too. Guess it boils down to what you normally see. Either one would reward a large amount of stormtroopers dropping in and gives you an actual reason to bring more riflemen, always a plus. Curious to see their relics and WLT'S. They're the two I see being the best allied force
I wouldn't count out the others either for pure lists. For example, psian jackals, the one that makes each casualty count as two could actually be pretty nasty with proper setup. Kill 4 Primaris on a drop and they're passing leadership on a 1. Many units you fight you wouldn't even have to finish killing off, even LD 10 units aren't able to pass the test at all with just 5 casualties. Basically just drop in, maul stuff, and profit. Especially since that one works with tauroxes. On top of that in our own codex we have the pysker power Terrifying visions, that can drop 2 ld off something alone, and that doesn't even bring up abilities that admech, Inquisition, knights, etc. have. If that trait gets a good relic and WLT I could see it being a good curve ball sleeper style army. Yes, people can insane bravery to save a unit, but now they've burned two CP they probably never dreamed they would need and youre doing this potentially army wide. Heck these guys will murder chaff infantry that don't have autopass options, since a single taurox Gatling cannon shooting GEQ will be making them test at -14 with just 7 casualties. That ability shuts down an unofficial rule in the game for units that aren't usually meant to fail morale. Take Kastelan robots in admech for example. Usually even a full size unit can't fail morale at ld10 with 6 robots. With this, you kill 4 robots, and odds are extremely high at least one or possibly both will run. A full army of these guys makes battleshock actually scary for armies that have never had to worry about it much in the past, and is probably the nastiest one where you just deepstrike them in and have tauroxes as fire support tanks. Will it be taking top tables anytime soon? Probably not unless stormtroopers get additional buffs, but it's one to watch.
You also have the Kappic Eagles who with the vigilus Valkyrie detachment can have BS1+ on the drop between the drop commander wlt and their regiment ability. They can essentially drop all over the board with 0 risk of dying to overcharge and lighting people up with Hotshot Volleyguns hitting on 2's. They're probably your best bet if you're set on using Valkyries with stormtroopers or actually transporting stuff with tauroxes. Honestly the only two unexciting ones are the ones that generate additional shots on a 6+, unless they get ways to buff BS they won't do much, but maybe their wlt and relics save them.
Onto regular guard stuff, some really cool stuff there. Lots of it is more fun for narrative games, like the Jerry rigging trait, but combining Catachans reroll shot count and mordians 5+ overwatch goes a long way to giving you the ability to survive as an armored company. Not to mention tank aces and presumably some more abilities targeting tanks. Inversely, you can pick two abilities that affect infantry as well. Not seen much for infantry abilities yet but the 18" rapid fire is very strong, especially if some of the other abilities give us say cover saves like the Raven guard trait or Catachan s4.
I'm assuming the main regiments are going to have their niches as being the only way to get certain combos of traits, and cadians and Catachans obviously have some very powerful characters and abilities to keep them in the running. Only 12 traits to choose from means we're not getting every single bog standard regiment trait most likely, so in all likelihood some of the more unique ones like s4 Catachan infantry or Valhallans half degrading tanks will probably remain unique to them.
Has anyone mentioned that the Tank Aces strat looks like it can apply to all AM Vehicles, like Vultures, etc.? -1 AP punisher vulture sounds pretty nice, anything else that would benefit much?
yeah, the wording is a super loose. You could give it to a sentinel or arvus lighter if you really wanted to...
I'm interested to see the full list and whether there's anything worth sticking on a superheavy etc. Unfortunately the -1ap trait is fairly worthless on anything not a leman russ, it specifies that the extra -1AP only applies to turret weapons, and punishers have a twin punisher cannon, not a punisher cannon like the russ so technically wouldn't benefit from it.
Cleric wrote: Has anyone mentioned that the Tank Aces strat looks like it can apply to all AM Vehicles, like Vultures, etc.? -1 AP punisher vulture sounds pretty nice, anything else that would benefit much?
This doesn't work on the Vulture. But other Tank ace traits (once we have not seen yet€ might work on stuff like thunderbolts, marauders (!) or a Baneblade for example. Can't wait till the book is out to see what can be done.
The Kappic Eagles (? The guys who get bonuses for disembarking basically) get a WLT that let's them give orders from transports out to 24". On top of that stormtroopers get a generic strat that let's a single Valkyrie gravchute its contents just outside of 5" away instead of 9", so even meltas can be within half range. With all these combos Valkyrie inserted stormtroopers might actually be decent. Also, it's just aeronautica imperialis with the grav insertion ability, so if GW ever fixes the Vendetta that can be used with it as well.
It was stated stormtroopers are getting 8 regular strats and an additional regiment specific one. One of which let's you take a Scion Commander and give him a WLT, much like Vigilus detachments or we are Alpharius. Pretty neat. It means that stormtrooper armies can have 3 WLT's going around between regular warlord, vigilus drop warlord, and a stormtrooper specific bonus wlt with the strat as well. Stormtroopers, between these buffs and their points drops, might actually be halfway viable after this.
Overall not a whole lot was spoiled that wasn't already shown in yesterday's regiment post, but I'm liking what I'm seeing. At bare minimum they could prove to be a fun backup batallion for my guardsmen. GW seems to have tried very hard to cover a lot of the issues stormtrooper armies have faced in the past with this. No way of telling if it's successful yet, but it's a start. May not be taking LVO but I can easily see these new abilities holding their own in a casual game night in a local club.
I'm liking what got revealed today. That master vox trait works from inside a vehicle and you measure from the hull so a tempestor prime in a valk will be a massive and very mobile order bubble. The pistol is kinda gimmicky but it still 2mw's on the hit with 6's granting an additional hit and thus mortal wound for a potential 4mw's every time you shoot it. Not something to go out of your way to grab but if you're running that doctrine anyway and can take another relic you could have some fun with it.
New precision drop is a straight upgrade over the old one and doesn't require the drop force so it's all pluses. The ability to drop at 5"'s opens the possibility of taking melt as and powerfists and going tank hunting though cost and screens will probably see people continue to favour plasma.
Progeny of conflict is something we'll probably use every game, along with tank aces. The ability to get essentially 4 warlord traits on the field is crazy and could open up some nasty combos and stacking going.
Fairly new astra militarum player (main army is stormtroopers with krieg support). A point to note is that with the old vigilus stratagem that let you jump out without taking casualties, its named the same as the new one. does that mean you can only use one or can you use both on a turn? I have 2 valks filled with guys so it would be pretty nice if they could both jump out turn one with no casualties for 2 cp
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, one problem I see with the -1 ap trait is that all your anti-tank stuff will just have too much ap, so many vehicles with invuln saves out there. Then again marine vehicles don't really have them and they're whats taking over. However, putting that trait on a superheavy with the tank ace strat could be juicy. I use a doomhammer so -4 on the main gun and lascannons, -2 on the heavy bolters is kinda wack. Also, has anyone thought about the stormlord? Wouldnt its gun now be 20 shots at ap -3 2dmg
Did we already see the exact wording of the Tank Ace rules? I am wondering if they can be slapped onto planes, being Astra Militarum but not having the regiment keyword there might be an obstacle. But I would love to have my Light use 'Full payload' as a tank ace trait. (" Do not roll to determine the Damage characteristic of weapons that model is equipped with; they have their maximum values.")
Singleton Mosby wrote: Did we already see the exact wording of the Tank Ace rules? I am wondering if they can be slapped onto planes, being Astra Militarum but not having the regiment keyword there might be an obstacle. But I would love to have my Light use 'Full payload' as a tank ace trait. (" Do not roll to determine the Damage characteristic of weapons that model is equipped with; they have their maximum values.")
Tank Aces (Leman Russ)
Master Mechanic
When resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon against this unit, reduce the Damage characteristic of that weapon by 1 to a minimum of 1 for that attack.
Slow and Purposeful
In your shooting phase, when resolving an attack made by this model, if it did not move or moved a distance less than half its Move characteristic in the preceding Movement phase, re-roll a wound roll of 1.
Weapon Expert
Improve the AP characteristic of its turret weapons by 1.
Armoured Rush
In your shooting phase, this model can shoot with turret weapons if is equipped with even if it Advanced this turn.
Up-armoured
This model has a Save characteristic of 2+
Steel Commander
Tank Commander models with this ability can use an additional Tank Order each turn.
Support Aces (Basilisk, Wyvern, Hydra, Manticore, Deathstrike)
Full Payload
Do not roll to determine the Damage charateristic of weapons this model is equipped with,. they always have the maximum values.
Shatterer of Will
In the shooting phase, after you have resolved all of the attacks made by this model, select one enemy unit that any of those attacks scored a hit against. Until the end of the turn, subtract 2 from the Leadership characteristic of that unit.
Well-stocked Magazines
When roling to determine the Type charateristic of a ranged weapon this model is equipped with, you can re-roll any or all the dice.
Super-heavy Aces (Titanic Vehicles)
Inspiring Might
When a Morale test is taken for a friendly Astra Militarum unit within 6" of this model, roll one additional D6 and discard one of the dice.
Hull-down Deployment
This models receives the benefit of the cover until the first time it moves in the battle.
Steadfast Leviathan.
If your army is Battle-forged, this model gains the Regimental Doctrines of its <REGIMENT> even if it is in a Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachment
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Full Payload
Do not roll to determine the Damage charateristic of weapons this model is equipped with,. they always have the maximum values.
I've always wanted a Deathstrike Missile Launcher. Not because it's good, but because KABOOM. Now it's even more silly! I love it!
Not to be a negative Nancy, but this stratagem actually doesn't do anything for Deathstrikes. They don't have a random Damage characteristic, they don't even use the normal shooting rules, they use a completely bespoke snowflake rule to inflict mortal wounds.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Full Payload
Do not roll to determine the Damage charateristic of weapons this model is equipped with,. they always have the maximum values.
I've always wanted a Deathstrike Missile Launcher. Not because it's good, but because KABOOM. Now it's even more silly! I love it!
Would that count for the MW it inflicts? I would think it means literal damage but then again it does specifically list deathstrikes for this. A deathstrike with that would be insane with halfway decent rolls. That's what, the most potential MW from a single unit in the game?
Yeah you're investing something like 4-5 CP into it to get it off and once your opponent sees what you're up to he's going to throw everything he has at it but it's a hell of a distraction. You're pretty much pointing a nuke at the table and saying "make my day"
Robcio wrote: Fairly new astra militarum player (main army is stormtroopers with krieg support). A point to note is that with the old vigilus stratagem that let you jump out without taking casualties, its named the same as the new one. does that mean you can only use one or can you use both on a turn? I have 2 valks filled with guys so it would be pretty nice if they could both jump out turn one with no casualties for 2 cp
Pretty sure faq says same name, can't use both. Could be wrong though
You can't use the old one because the new one replaces it (at least when they eventually FAQ it like they did for Space Marines, until then it's not clear and you can argue either way).
Either way you can't use both versions in the same phase due to the Tactical Restraint rule.
So my Catachans just jumped ahead mutiple notches lol. My manticore can now reroll the number of shots, add 1 to hit rerolling ones near a character (harker or yarrick) and does a flat 3 damage
Then theres the hammer of sundrance battle canon commander with AP -3 or the demolisher commander that can pop off for 12 shots
and i can always still take a tempestor prime and use strats to ensure I can still take grand strategist.
What would a hard reset accomplish? It would just be a temporary release from the rules bloat until it isn't again. Meanwhile, your entire library of codices/CA/Vigilus/PA books become completely worthless all at once.
If they're going to do a 9th Ed, it'd better be changing over to a full D10 or even D12 based system so they can finally give themselves more design space to make balance and points changes.
Has anyone laid eyes on the custom doctrines page? I'm wondering whether the wording would allow them to replace <Krieg>, thus giving Kriegers some actual doctrines....
What would a hard reset accomplish? It would just be a temporary release from the rules bloat until it isn't again. Meanwhile, your entire library of codices/CA/Vigilus/PA books become completely worthless all at once.
If they're going to do a 9th Ed, it'd better be changing over to a full D10 or even D12 based system so they can finally give themselves more design space to make balance and points changes.
It would give at least some room to play working game. As it is bloat and power creep will just grow exponentially. Only matter of time before gw gives ability to alpha strike in deployment phase
Has anyone got info on new psychic things in Psychic Awakening? I was looking forward to a small exansion in our warp-cursed abilities. From what I have seen we get a stratagem (psychic barrage?) but I can't find much info on it, as all the talk is about more sexy changes. I've heard it described as similar to the seer council, but I don't really know what that means.
I would also like to see the possible combinations.
By the way, as I would like to try some kind of melee Guard some day (as ineffective as it seems), I mathhammered around a little bit how the two leaked CC traits (+1 hit on a 6 in CC and +1 AP when in range of an officer) stack up against the Catachan +1S. Of corse the catachans still have the advantage of Straken, that makes them the best melee regiment, but just looking at a barebones Infantry squad (11 S3 attacks):
The custom melee regiment is slightly better against T3, T5 and T8+ (regardless of save) as well as T4 with Sv 4+ or better, and T6/T7 with Sv2+. In all other cases the Catachans are still better even without Straken. Do with that info what you want. What I draw from that is that melee guard is still more of a fun option and Catachans are still best at it. A pity, since it would have been a funny alternative in my opinion.
Well, you're forgetting that you can stack your traits to have 2 infantry/tank ones. So while a normal guard army just shoves everything into a detachment be it tank or infantry because they get one of each, if you're going to run custom regiments you should be putting all infantry in one detachment and all your tanks in another.
So yes, Catachan are the best melee regiment, absolutely. But you could take say +1 AP and the 18" rapid fire ability or the one that gives you cover on your infantry in a batallion. Then take your tanks in a spearhead and give them Catachan style reroll shots and the repair or overwatch ability. With use of Vigilus and PA, you're actually closing the gap on a regular Catachan forces effectiveness pretty quickly. At that point it's more preference and how well you can leverage your regiment traits and if you have the detachments spare to do it. Yes you lose Catachan characters and strat/wlt, but you gain double the traits for.pretty much the same units you were going to run anyways
With all the leaks, seems like Tempestus Scions should have their own Tactica thread. When I get home from I am more than willing to get it started. If someone else does though I won't mind.
Nah, they're still a subfaction. They have a couple of tricks but they're still reliant on the rest of the army for heavier units. I'd prefer if we keep the discussions in one place personally as the best way to run scions will probably be in conjunction with other guard detachments.
Once i get my hands on the book I'm gonna start looking at running a scion battalion alongside another guard detachment or two. scions deepstrike in and take the fight to the enemy while regular guard bring the heavy firepower.
Also for what it's worth, Dragons make Deep Strike Flamers something that can actually happen. 14" threat range is nothing to sneeze at, but likely you'd just want to use something else as anti-infantry
@ Mr. Moustaffa: Yes, I totally agree. I might have been unclear in my post. What I tried to indicate was if you would be better of with a custom regiment with both melee traits compared to Catachan if you for some reason want to have a Guard-Melee-Infantry detachment. If my math is not totally of the answer would be, as soon as Straken gets involved, Catachan is still superior for a potential melee guard detachment.
But as "pure melee" is a dumb idea anyway I agree wholeheartedly, that the new mix and match allows for customizing an infantry detachment and another vehicle detachment.
To be honest I'm just a bit sad because I really would have wanted to try a melee oriented detachment that's not Catachan and had a bit of hope that PA would give the tools for that. I know it's not a competetive idea, but personally it would have been fun.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Also for what it's worth, Dragons make Deep Strike Flamers something that can actually happen. 14" threat range is nothing to sneeze at, but likely you'd just want to use something else as anti-infantry
Flamers are not rapid fire weapons, and so do not benefit from the crack shots doctrine.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: With all the leaks, seems like Tempestus Scions should have their own Tactica thread. When I get home from I am more than willing to get it started. If someone else does though I won't mind.
I can put one together if you haven't already started, I have most of the new stuff written down from yesterday lol.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Also for what it's worth, Dragons make Deep Strike Flamers something that can actually happen. 14" threat range is nothing to sneeze at, but likely you'd just want to use something else as anti-infantry
Flamers are not rapid fire weapons, and so do not benefit from the crack shots doctrine.
I thought I read it was supposed to be Rapid Fire and Assault Weapons. My mistake and sorry for the misinformation.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: With all the leaks, seems like Tempestus Scions should have their own Tactica thread. When I get home from I am more than willing to get it started. If someone else does though I won't mind.
I can put one together if you haven't already started, I have most of the new stuff written down from yesterday lol.
I'm probably working until 9 so have a crack at it.
Regarding my earlier post:
actually my math was a bit off, as I calculated an additional attack on a 6 with slum fighters not an additional HIT.
Taking that into account the custom melee regiment (Lords Approval and Slum fighters) beats out Catachan (without Straken), vs T3, T4, T5, T8 (regardless of save), T6 and T7 with 2+. It is equal against T6 and T7 with 3+ and worse against T6 and T7 with 4+ or worse.
But of course it's still nothing to write home about.
Interesting thing with that extra hit: for Conscripts with their WS5+ it amounts to +50% melee hits. As instead of hitting 2/6 times on average (once each on a 5 and 6), they hit 3/6 times (once on a 5 and twice on a 6).
I know Ogryns aren't exactly a staple of IG armies at the best of times, but I imagine their fans will be disappointed to hear that their increased cost in CA 2019 wasn't amended in the errata.
So i think the go to Tank Ace is going to be Full Payload Basilisk in a Vigilus Detachement as Catachan, shooting twice eash turn.
Bad boy can shred multiwound stuff.
Also, i think i finally found a leadership/morale mechanic.
Needs a Detachment of Tempestus Jackals, a stratagem and an Astropath.
Shatter of Will Stratagem on a HIT for -2 leadership. Then use astropath for Terrifying visoins for another -2.
Now, Jackals scions double the causalities 2 for 1 on leadership test.
So one killed guy is at a -6 on leadership, 2 guys is at -8.
So killing 2 Marine Intercessors Ld8 is going to be an autofail even with rerolls, if they are Ultramarine's or using some buffs to get a Ld 9/10, then you need to kill 3.
But you can make 10 man intercessors unit run, or 6 man Centurions run if you can pop 2 guys from the Jackals your making the whole squad run, or at worst forcing them to burn 2 CP. Remember that the Apocathary cant bring back units that flee from morale. Really think this can be a nasty trick on those multiwound elite unit models.
That's [pretty awesome and I will one up you there -- I run an inquisitor psyker up front in my lines who gets out of the valkyries to psy support the scion troops. Terrify gets another 1 ld minus on the troop, by which point you have 3 ld minus on it, and its time to dominate, causing one centurion to attack another in melee, and quite possibly starting your clock of dead centurions at 1 (thus FOUR ld minus before your backfield shatterer of will fires in to add a sixth minus.) As that makes it very likely you have 1 dead centurion one way or the other and a -6ld debuf, the fire from your squad of scions need only kill one to move it to 8.
Now, our enemy starts with leadership, if I am doing the math right, of 0, and you roll to see if you wipe the squad of three. There is good odds the squad melts away in terror. A pile of mere primaris intercessers, I am thinking, you would probably have killed a couple with the manticore and probably 1 more with plasma fire from the squad, so they are going to start at 8 -2(astro spell) -1(inquisitor spell) -2 -2or3(manticore kills) -4or6 (your plasma in the squad kills 2 or so) = somewhere around -3 leadership, which ... I don't even have a damn clue what that does, does he roll a 1 and lose 4 models, or a 2 and lose the squad?
You sir, are my new hero. I am so using this today! "Those lazy scions weren't at close range, they didn't need to be, cause centurions are terrified of scions."
Lets be blunt, I have enough scion firepower ot straight up kill a six centurion squad ... but if I can do it on the cheap, I can get a couple repulsor executioners to explode as well, on my alpha strike, or I can do it from a bit disadvantaged range. The implications of this are something I will have to long consider, most especially cause jakals get the scion version of master of ambush and the scion version of jink, both things I wanted pretty badly.
It's a lot of investment for something that can be negated with a 2cp strat.
It is definitely fun, but I think stacking to wipe one squad is a risk. It will be great for horde clearing and making 5 man squads actually fear moral.
Sentineil wrote: It's a lot of investment for something that can be negated with a 2cp strat.
It is definitely fun, but I think stacking to wipe one squad is a risk. It will be great for horde clearing and making 5 man squads actually fear moral.
The list that won LVO started the game with 5 CP. Obviously some Marine lists will have more, but centurions are probably also spending 2CP for transhuman physiology if plasma is hitting them So you're either burning a lot more of your opponent's CP than they planned on or like Dukeofstuff said, you can spend your firepower elsewhere if the unit you shoot at is ok living
I've been thinking about how powerful you could make a manticore with these rules, mainly because some of the new stratagems last all phase so you can double shoot them. Tell me if I have missed anything major or gone too far:
Emperor's wrath manticore
- Well stocked magazines for reroll shot number.
- Direct onslaught for +1 to hit. (1cp)
- MoO for reroll 1s over 36", which is probably possible on turn 1.
- Pounding barrage for an extra shot with direct onslaught. (2cp)
Are there any more stratagems that could be doubled with pounding barrage? You could switch to a basilisk and use aerial spotter instead of direct onslaught, or a wyvern can use both at once. Then of course there are all sorts of psychic buffs (Aradia Madellan) and auras, or even cadian/catachan/new doctrines.
Sentineil wrote: It's a lot of investment for something that can be negated with a 2cp strat.
It is definitely fun, but I think stacking to wipe one squad is a risk. It will be great for horde clearing and making 5 man squads actually fear moral.
I think the key to making it work is not to stack it all on one enemy squad, but to spread it among a whole enemy army. He can only autopass one morale check. So you spread the damage a bit across a few units. So this probably works best as a mono or mostly mono stormtroopers force. This trait also works with tauroxes as well, so you can use some hiding in the back to help plink units for morale checks. Super deathstacking a single enemy squad is perhaps too easily countered, but say casting terrify on one enemy lynchpin unit while using the artillery debuffs on another gives you reasonable chances to wreck both squads, and the opponent will have to choose. He's more likely to pass the squad with less casualties, but if he's wrong he can lose more men. He can auto pass the squad with more casualties but is it worth two CP to save 1-2 centurions for example, especially when the average tournament list is not planning on reserving 2 cp for autopass morale of all things.
Also, making a marine player burn 2 cp could be a big deal. We tend to be swimming in CP as mono guard. Perhaps it's worth it for us to burn 2-3 cp just to make the opponent burn 2, because he may start the game with 10 while we can easily start the game with 20. Perhaps one of the biggest bits of utility this list has is forcing your opponent to burn CP he can't afford. I mean take an army like admech or CSM. They're needing every CP planned to the wire usually. Forcing them to burn 2cp is a doubletap robbed from a CSM chaincannons squad, or a wrath of Mars from a Kastelans castle. You're quite literally fighting a war of attrition with CP at that point. Even better if you can force him to auspex scan and burn even more CP, killing a small Scion squad only for more to drop in behind it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Trickstick wrote: I've been thinking about how powerful you could make a manticore with these rules, mainly because some of the new stratagems last all phase so you can double shoot them. Tell me if I have missed anything major or gone too far:
Emperor's wrath manticore
- Well stocked magazines for reroll shot number.
- Direct onslaught for +1 to hit. (1cp)
- MoO for reroll 1s over 36", which is probably possible on turn 1.
- Pounding barrage for an extra shot with direct onslaught. (2cp)
Are there any more stratagems that could be doubled with pounding barrage? You could switch to a basilisk and use aerial spotter instead of direct onslaught, or a wyvern can use both at once. Then of course there are all sorts of psychic buffs (Aradia Madellan) and auras, or even cadian/catachan/new doctrines.
Can't use pounding barrage with manticore, it's not one of the keywords allowed with that vigilus detachment, same for deathstrike.
Additionally, even if it was, manticore datasheet explicitly stated it may only fire one missile a turn
Manticore's don't get to use pounding barrage unless I missed an faq somewhere. In any case, make it vostrayan, pop firstborn pride and that manticore is now hitting on 2's.
Compounding this issue is the fact that basilisks don't benefit from Direct onslaught either. The wyvern does however and while the idea of an bs2+ 8d6, rerolling shot count, rerolling hits, rerolling wounds against infantry wyvern is hilarious I don't think there's anything in the meta that really requires that many shots that couldn't be dealt with better by something else.
Edit: so I decided to plug the above into the stat engine cause i have nothing better to do this evening apparently. Assuming the following buffs are in place.
Emperor's wrath detachment (+1CP)
Well stocked magazines (which i'm assuming lets you reroll all shot die as i don't have know the specific wording) (+1CP)
Aerial Spotters to reroll all hits (+2CP)
Pounding Barrage to shoot twice (+2CP)
Direct Onslaught for +1 to hit (+1CP)
Firstborn Pride for +1 to hit (+1CP)
I'd stick the trait Lord of ordnance on their as well but i have no idea how to add 6's grant AP-1 in the stat engine. So 8 CP gets us the following
I'd be interest to see how it performs against MEQ's with the warlord trait but that's a massive CP investment for relatively little result against the current meta army. The performance against GEQ is hilarious however.
The Catachan (reroll random shots) Basilisk in vigilus with Harker (reroll 1s_ Acadia (+1 to hit pysker power). Shoot twice stratagem and max damage 3 from full payload. WIth Vigiulus warlord on a 6 (5's with Acada) get extra -1 AP. relic Agripina Orbtial Trackers to ignore cove. Can take Old Grudges as well.
Assuming shoot twice and ignores cover emperors Wrath Artillery. Vs T5 2+ Save Centurions
Catachan (reroll random dice), Harker(reroll 1s_, Acadia(+1 to hit), Old Grudges (erroll wounds) 16.59 wounds
Above without old grudges: 12.44 wounds
Without Acadia and with Old Grudges 12.44
*so +1 to hit or Old Grudges are effectively the same in this case.
Above without Acadia or old grudges:9.33 Wounds
Above without Harker as well: 8 wounds even.
I couldnt figure out how to get the extra AP on 6s in the stats so everything should be slightly better.
Aggressors Die even faster. 10wounds
With Harker: 11.67 wounds
with acadia or old grudges 15.56 wounds
WIth Harker, Acadia, Old Grudges: 20.74 Wounds
Again likely higher as you are getting AP -4 on 6's so some of those aggressors wont even get saves.
With all 3 buffs Vs T8 5+ Invul IK its 16.59 wounds; with a 4+ invul its 12.44
The key is to make sure to go first and not lose this guy to any indirect fire. I think taking other basiilks or stuff that kill any TFC/Whirlwinds is important.
No one's going to bring up a Vostroyan Tank Commander Ace?
Give it re-roll 1's to wound or bonus AP, Order Gunners Kill on Sight, play Hail of Fire and Fury of the First.
12 shots hitting on 2's rerolling 1's to hit. Reroll 1's to wound or a bonus AP (statistically the same?).
Hammer of Sunderance gives most things a bad day. Demolisher ruins everyone's day.
EDIT: What would be the best way to bring one of these? Vostroyan Battalion with a Company Commander? (...I don't have enough Vostroyan models is why I ask)
Edit: On further thought about the only thing you can do to buff a manticore is give it +1/+2 to hit, reroll ones and reroll wounds so you can't buff it as much as you can a basilisk and the basilisk looks to out perform the manticore even if you drop the basilisk down to the same buffs the manticore can get.
I keep thinking of little synergies, and then deciding that it is a waste and better to just go with more tanks/men. For example, I was thinking about a supreme command shadowsword with a trojan, the overwatch trait, the reapair trait, and a techpriest. Then I think it would just be better to have like 100 more men or some russes or something, instead of bothering to buff the shadowsword.
That's the rub I guess. All the points and CP you put into things reduces the amount of wounds you can flood the game with. It's one reason I actually like basic russes, they are much cheaper for exactly the same durability.
Trickstick wrote: I keep thinking of little synergies, and then deciding that it is a waste and better to just go with more tanks/men. For example, I was thinking about a supreme command shadowsword with a trojan, the overwatch trait, the reapair trait, and a techpriest. Then I think it would just be better to have like 100 more men or some russes or something, instead of bothering to buff the shadowsword.
That's the rub I guess. All the points and CP you put into things reduces the amount of wounds you can flood the game with. It's one reason I actually like basic russes, they are much cheaper for exactly the same durability.
On the other hand, mathammering it out, it takes around 3 regular Russes to get the same firepower as two Tank Commanders, for more points. To be fair, you do get 12 more T8 3+ wounds, but I'd rather save the points for either more Guardsmen or something else.
Arcanis161 wrote: On the other hand, mathammering it out, it takes around 3 regular Russes to get the same firepower as two Tank Commanders, for more points. To be fair, you do get 12 more T8 3+ wounds, but I'd rather save the points for either more Guardsmen or something else.
To each their own I guess.
I usually go for a bit of both, so like 2 TC 3 LR or something. However, I am considering 1 TC with Sundrance, then 3 plain demolishers. Try to give the enemy something to think about when it comes to target priority. If I made one of the demolishers a TC it would be the first choice every time, so the points are sort of wasted.
Arcanis161 wrote: No one's going to bring up a Vostroyan Tank Commander Ace?
Give it re-roll 1's to wound or bonus AP, Order Gunners Kill on Sight, play Hail of Fire and Fury of the First.
12 shots hitting on 2's rerolling 1's to hit. Reroll 1's to wound or a bonus AP (statistically the same?).
Hammer of Sunderance gives most things a bad day. Demolisher ruins everyone's day.
EDIT: What would be the best way to bring one of these? Vostroyan Battalion with a Company Commander? (...I don't have enough Vostroyan models is why I ask)
I looked at it. You better off just taking a Tank Commander. ANd a super heavy has no invul still.
Just a quick question: the Furious Charge stratagem says "use this stratagem when an ogryn unit...". Would this be units with the Ogryn keyword? I know that things like tank commanders count as russes for things because they have the russ keyword. I ask because Bullgryns still have the Ogryn keyword, and it would be a useful thing for them to have.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also: Hail of Fire (the max shots one). Does it state turret weapon at all? Because getting 6 plasma shots from your sponsons would be nice, on top of the demolisher or sunderance.
Arcanis161 wrote: No one's going to bring up a Vostroyan Tank Commander Ace?
Give it re-roll 1's to wound or bonus AP, Order Gunners Kill on Sight, play Hail of Fire and Fury of the First.
12 shots hitting on 2's rerolling 1's to hit. Reroll 1's to wound or a bonus AP (statistically the same?).
Hammer of Sunderance gives most things a bad day. Demolisher ruins everyone's day.
EDIT: What would be the best way to bring one of these? Vostroyan Battalion with a Company Commander? (...I don't have enough Vostroyan models is why I ask)
I looked at it. You better off just taking a Tank Commander. ANd a super heavy has no invul still.
Can you please clarify? I'm not following. I was talking about a Tank Commander.
Can you not make a Tank Commander a Tank Ace? Or play Hail of Fire on a Tank Commander?
"All multi shot weaponry" is what i've seen it posted as. Plasma sponsons are probably worth it but i feel kinda nervous sticking so much investment into a single model.
Goonhammer put a combo article out btw. Got some maths on a vostroyan TC with hammer of sunderance vs one with a demolisher. The demolisher TC looks scary, you trade rerolls sure but gain the firstborn pride strat and 6" on the cannon which becomes AP-4 with the trait. I'm toying with the idea of a vostroyan Emperor's fist supreme command detachment, take 2-3 TC's (maybe sub a primaris pysker in for one of the TC's), one with the hammer the other with the demolisher and expert gunner's trait. Demolisher uses the strat to move and still get grinding advance, then you pop the buff strats on whichever tank is best positioned (or still alive on your turn) to kill a priority target.
gbghg wrote: "All multi shot weaponry" is what i've seen it posted as. Plasma sponsons are probably worth it but i feel kinda nervous sticking so much investment into a single model.
Nice.
I don't really consider the plasma to be expensive any more. They are only 4 points more than bolters these days. Its not like when they used to be 40 points. The worst bit is probably overheating, especially with 6 shots, although there are plenty of ways to get rerolls and mitigate that.
Trickstick wrote: Just a quick question: the Furious Charge stratagem says "use this stratagem when an ogryn unit...". Would this be units with the Ogryn keyword? I know that things like tank commanders count as russes for things because they have the russ keyword. I ask because Bullgryns still have the Ogryn keyword, and it would be a useful thing for them to have.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also: Hail of Fire (the max shots one). Does it state turret weapon at all? Because getting 6 plasma shots from your sponsons would be nice, on top of the demolisher or sunderance.
Hail of Fire reads:
Use this Strategem in your Shooting phase, when a Leman Russ model from your army is chosen to shoot with. Until the end of that phase, when resolving an attack made with a weapon by that model against a VEHICLE unit, do not roll to determine the Type characteristic of that weapon; it has the maximum value (e.g. a Heavy D6 weapon makes 6 shots).
So yeah, it applies to all Leman Russ weapons that roll for a number of shots.
Use this Strategem in your Shooting phase, when a Leman Russ model from your army is chosen to shoot with. Until the end of that phase, when resolving an attack made with a weapon by that model against a VEHICLE unit, do not roll to determine the Type characteristic of that weapon; it has the maximum value (e.g. a Heavy D6 weapon makes 6 shots).
So yeah, it applies to all Leman Russ weapons that roll for a number of shots.
Nice.
Having another thought: tallarn demolisher tank commander with triple flamers. Unyielding advance for extra demolisher shot even from ambush, order to get within 8" from ambush, some tank ace thing and whatever other buffs/stratagems you care to bring. I know it is a lot of CP (6+) but 18 heavy flamer shots and 12 demolisher shots is going to mess a lot of things up.
I still think Tallarn Tank commanders are the only way to go, vehicles without invuls melt. You got to shoot and scoot out of line of sight to survive.
Dynas wrote: I still think Tallarn Tank commanders are the only way to go, vehicles without invuls melt. You got to shoot and scoot out of line of sight to survive.
I prefer Tallarn tanks for a single reason: I hate the idea of moving degrading my weapon fire. If I have to consider a -1 to hit, I know that I will stay still for extra firepower when the best idea would be to move.
However, I am considering a regiment split. Something like all the vehicles as Tallarn and all the infantry with the new permacover/18" rapidfire doctrines. Not sure yet but may experiment with it.
I'm not sure how good the cover trait will be in a world with imperial fists and other cover ignoring factions. I'm kind of leaning towards the advance and still shoot for the extra mobility
gbghg wrote: I'm not sure how good the cover trait will be in a world with imperial fists and other cover ignoring factions. I'm kind of leaning towards the advance and still shoot for the extra mobility
I was not a fan of that trait, as you take a -1 to hit when advancing. I would just take Tallarn who avoid that consequence.
Having another thought: tallarn demolisher tank commander with triple flamers. Unyielding advance for extra demolisher shot even from ambush, order to get within 8" from ambush, some tank ace thing and whatever other buffs/stratagems you care to bring. I know it is a lot of CP (6+) but 18 heavy flamer shots and 12 demolisher shots is going to mess a lot of things up.
Unfortunately, Hail of Fire forces the tank to fire at a vehicle. Plasmas will still do a better job there than 18 flamer shots.
Honestly, I think anything that is a vehicle keyword should be able to move and shoot heavy weapons without the -1 to hit. Vehicles should be able to advance at -1 on heavy weapons (on vehicles) and assault weapons on vehicles can advance at no penalty.
This fixes that.
Then the trait for Tallarn should be able to do the full movement and still get grinding advance I think.
But now im wishilisting/rules writing and digressing.
Need to be able to hide, even an uparmor 2+ tank ace is still gonna get shredded by stalker bolt rifles.
gbghg wrote: I'm not sure how good the cover trait will be in a world with imperial fists and other cover ignoring factions. I'm kind of leaning towards the advance and still shoot for the extra mobility
I was not a fan of that trait, as you take a -1 to hit when advancing. I would just take Tallarn who avoid that consequence.
Sure but in a custom reg you can get 18" rapid fire as well. So you get more shots at a worse bs. Its probably worth mathing out to see which does better tbh.
gbghg wrote: Sure but in a custom reg you can get 18" rapid fire as well. So you get more shots at a worse bs. Its probably worth mathing out to see which does better tbh.
Oh it's much better in that 12"-18", I hadn't thought about that. On the other hand, you really don't want to be using plasma with a -1 to hit. I guess it is just preference really.
I would take the -1D tank Ace trait before the 2+ armour. I am planing to use a pair of Tank commanders with those 2, and I will give the hammer of sundance to the -1D as it feels safer
Babar_babar wrote: I would take the -1D tank Ace trait before the 2+ armour. I am planing to use a pair of Tank commanders with those 2, and I will give the hammer of sundance to the -1D as it feels safer
Babar_babar wrote: I would take the -1D tank Ace trait before the 2+ armour. I am planing to use a pair of Tank commanders with those 2, and I will give the hammer of sundance to the -1D as it feels safer
Yeah it never restricts you from taking the same trait twice. The restrictions are that you can't give it to a named character, and you can't give more than one to a single model.
Something I haven't seen discussed much though is that you have to give up your warlord trait to get a tank ace (edit: for one of them anyway). Is it really worth giving up something like old grudges or grand strategist for these? I think it will probably depend on the list. You can always use 1cp to get one anyway. Also, I saw someone saying they could give up their Vigilus warlord trait for a tank ace, although I don't think that works as Vigilus traits are not from true Warlord units. You could still use them to get some extra "warlord" traits though. So 2 aces and whatever Vigilus stuff you want.
Thinking about it, losing your Warlord trait may actually be a good thing. It makes your Warlord less of a target, and also reduces the loss if they die.
Babar_babar wrote: I would take the -1D tank Ace trait before the 2+ armour. I am planing to use a pair of Tank commanders with those 2, and I will give the hammer of sundance to the -1D as it feels safer
You can just take the -1 damage trait twice.
Not on the same tank, but yeah, most likely. With Nids i take the Enhanced Resistance Physical Adaption on warriors twice (2 separate units). This tank ace rule is basically that.
Yeah it never restricts you from taking the same trait twice. The restrictions are that you can't give it to a named character, and you can't give more than one to a single model.
Something I haven't seen discussed much though is that you have to give up your warlord trait to get a tank ace (edit: for one of them anyway). Is it really worth giving up something like old grudges or grand strategist for these? I think it will probably depend on the list. You can always use 1cp to get one anyway. Also, I saw someone saying they could give up their Vigilus warlord trait for a tank ace, although I don't think that works as Vigilus traits are not from true Warlord units. You could still use them to get some extra "warlord" traits though. So 2 aces and whatever Vigilus stuff you want.
Thinking about it, losing your Warlord trait may actually be a good thing. It makes your Warlord less of a target, and also reduces the loss if they die.
Well, with the scion strat and field commander we can buy 2 warlord traits, with the caveats that one has to be a vigilus trait and the other has to go on a scion so we can have a warlord with no trait and 4 other models with traits instead (for 3cp admittedly). Which way is best is probably gonna be down to the kind of army you're running, tank heavy will probably favour 2 aces and a scion/vigilus trait, whereas more scion/balances heavy lists probably want 1 ace, native warlord trait and another warlord trait (probably a scion one) on a tempestor.
Given new stratagems and new point values, what's the new look of Bullgryns and Ogryns? Caveat: I'm not looking to be talked out of them altogether, as I love the models and was about to build a squad of each when the changes came along... mine is more a question of how-to rather than whether-to.
MacPhail wrote: Given new stratagems and new point values, what's the new look of Bullgryns and Ogryns? Caveat: I'm not looking to be talked out of them altogether, as I love the models and was about to build a squad of each when the changes came along... mine is more a question of how-to rather than whether-to.
Im interested to see if Furious Charge is much use for Bullgryns (it totatally works, Bullgryns still have the Ogryn keyword). Extra mortal wounds are always nice, even if it is only likely to be a handful of them.
So I realized that, besides the obvious choice of a Punisher Russ / Commander, the new Monster Hunters regimental doctrine is actually really nasty on Wyverns and gives them a dual role as anti-infantry and anti-monster.
It is significantly cheaper than a Punisher Russ, much longer range, ignores LOS, and gets innate full rerolls to wound to score more Mortal Wounds.
Each Wyvern averages around 2-3 Mortals plus a handful of forced saves.
A trio of them would be a serious threat to Riptides, Princes etc. in addition to shredding light infantry. And they can do this at a safer range from our backfield.
slobulous wrote: So I realized that, besides the obvious choice of a Punisher Russ / Commander, the new Monster Hunters regimental doctrine is actually really nasty on Wyverns and gives them a dual role as anti-infantry and anti-monster.
It is significantly cheaper than a Punisher Russ, much longer range, ignores LOS, and gets innate full rerolls to wound to score more Mortal Wounds.
Each Wyvern averages around 2-3 Mortals plus a handful of forced saves.
A trio of them would be a serious threat to Riptides, Princes etc. in addition to shredding light infantry. And they can do this at a safer range from our backfield.
I bet we will be seeing a lot more Riptides soon.
Riptides will just savior protocol and the mortal wound would be lost.
Riptides will just savior protocol and the mortal wound would be lost.
Ummm everyone knows you kill the drones first before you start shooting the suits...Thats how you fight Tau
Which the Wyverns are great at removing the drones first as well.
I'd like to point out that the 3 Wyverns are only 327 pts. Like barely 50pts more than one fully loaded riptide You still have almost 1700pts of firepower in the list remaining
I'd be loathe to pick a trait that only applies to monsters. There are far too many forces that simply don't have access to them. I know there are armies without vehicles too, but at least with a vehicle-only trait you have a decent chance of seeing them.
I guess if you are in a tailor-friendly situation then it can be decent. For example, if you are doing a Tyranid campaign it would make sense to have a monster hunting force.
Trickstick wrote: I'd be loathe to pick a trait that only applies to monsters. There are far too many forces that simply don't have access to them. I know there are armies without vehicles too, but at least with a vehicle-only trait you have a decent chance of seeing them.
I guess if you are in a tailor-friendly situation then it can be decent. For example, if you are doing a Tyranid campaign it would make sense to have a monster hunting force.
It is indeed situational. It will mostly be strong against Nids, Tau, and some Chaos and perhaps Dark Eldar such as Talos.
But I think Tau will be much more prevalent in the meta now with their new rules
What I am envisioning is a list with 3 detachments, each detachment using the new Doctrines that best fit the units in that detachment.
The detachments I would use would be:
Monster Hunters / Jury Rigging for the wyverns
Gunnery Experts / Spotter Detail for 30" range Demolisher Russes with reroll # of shots
And lastly, Gunnery Experts and Jury Rigging for a Vigilus Artillery detachment with Basilisks.
Riptides have been classified as Monsters / Monstrous Creatures since the model came out, Across multiple editions of the game over more than a decade.
In fact, their Monstrous Creature status used to give their melee attacks AP2 which negated all armor saves back in that edition.
Riptides will just savior protocol and the mortal wound would be lost.
Ummm everyone knows you kill the drones first before you start shooting the suits...Thats how you fight Tau
Which the Wyverns are great at removing the drones first as well.
I'd like to point out that the 3 Wyverns are only 327 pts. Like barely 50pts more than one fully loaded riptide You still have almost 1700pts of firepower in the list remaining
You say that like it's so easy. Shield drones with that 4++/5+++ are brutal to try and kill and it feels like it's more work to kill them directly than what they're shielding directly sometimes. I mean heck, something like a Punisher cannon is only really killing 4-5 a volley if you're lucky.
Riptides will just savior protocol and the mortal wound would be lost.
Ummm everyone knows you kill the drones first before you start shooting the suits...Thats how you fight Tau
Which the Wyverns are great at removing the drones first as well.
I'd like to point out that the 3 Wyverns are only 327 pts. Like barely 50pts more than one fully loaded riptide You still have almost 1700pts of firepower in the list remaining
True, but the wyverns are getting any orders like cadian mortar teams rerolling misses. You aren't getting the benefit of the moral wounds either.
Those 3 wyverns hitting on 4s are gonna kill 3.5 drones on average, if you shoot twice with one from vigilus your gonna kill 4.67 drones. Most Tau list can lose 3.5-4.5 drones a turn and still function.
Lets say somehow you survive to turn 6 with all 3, and manage to kill 3.5 on average, you killed 21 drones over the course of the game. Thats 327 points across the entire game used to kill 210 points of drones.
Ill take that trade.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unit1126PLL wrote: Riptides have the *Battlesuit* keyword, not the *Monster* keyword, if I recall correctly.
Sort of like how Crisis Suits aren't *infantry* and therefore don't get cover
They are MONSTER and BATTLESUIT, but not VEHICLES.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Riptides have the *Battlesuit* keyword, not the *Monster* keyword
MrMoustaffa wrote: Shield drones with that 4++/5+++ are brutal to try and kill and it feels like it's more work to kill them directly than what they're shielding directly sometimes. I mean heck, something like a Punisher cannon is only really killing 4-5 a volley if you're lucky.
Those 3 wyverns hitting on 4s are gonna kill 3.5 drones on average
Yikes guys....Like, wow....
There is some serious misinformation being posted here. It seems this thread is filled with people that have not done any research nor know how to do math-hammer to obtain expected averages.
I guess I could try to further explain but it's looking kind of futile. I think I'll be leaving now.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Riptides have the *Battlesuit* keyword, not the *Monster* keyword
MrMoustaffa wrote: Shield drones with that 4++/5+++ are brutal to try and kill and it feels like it's more work to kill them directly than what they're shielding directly sometimes. I mean heck, something like a Punisher cannon is only really killing 4-5 a volley if you're lucky.
Those 3 wyverns hitting on 4s are gonna kill 3.5 drones on average
Yikes guys....Like, wow....
There is some serious misinformation being posted here. It seems this thread is filled with people that have not done any research nor know how to do math-hammer to obtain expected averages.
I guess I could try to further explain but it's looking kind of futile. I think I'll be leaving now.
If you know more about Tau please enlighten me, I'm being completely serious, I will take any advice I can get. Because I've currently got a Tau player with some sort of FW drones that have a 4+ invuln and a 5+ fnp and if I find out he's cheating he's getting punched. Right now if I shoot a target, he savior protocols on a 2+, and regardless of whether it's a lasgun or a shadowsword wound it can only kill one drone. Except oh wait, he can use a 5+ FNP on savior protocol and not even lose the drone. Because it doesn't matter how much damage I do per shot, it converts to a single MW because whoever wrote the Tau codex needs to play against that and know what suffering he unleashed into the world. I try shooting the shield drones directly, and now they get a 4+ invuln and a 5+ fnp which means for every 10 wounds I get on them I'm getting maybe 3 kills. And that's if he rolls average. I've had two full volleys of Reaper chaincannons with VoTL hitting on 2's rerolling and wounding on 2's kill 1 drone per volley, and many times that weren't far off. I know part of that is luck but when you watch it happen every game and you know your opponent isn't fudging dice you just sort of go crazy after a while.
As far as I can tell, shield drones are the most busted thing in this game mechanically and if I ever meet the person who wrote their rules I might actually chew them out. Unless I screwed my math up, a tank commander rerolling ones with it's punisher turret kills between 6-7 drones total (ignoring sponsons and hull bolters just for ease of math), which would make my claim of 3-4 dead per volley correct. I really want to be wrong here, if you know a way to beat these damn things please tell me. Because best I can tell there is nothing in the game that efficiently kills drones, except maybe FRFSRF lasgun fire.
Shield drones are literal aids to play against. you focus stupid amounts of firepower into clearing them and bracketing the riptide they're protecting then the damn thing pops a strat and shoots at full BS anyway. They're very effective at what they do but they're horrible to play against, you're only real way around them is hoping the tau player fails their 2+ to pass the wound off.
I've had the most success with clearing drones with laguns and heavy bolters while you put the firepower that matters into the rest of the list to try and cut down the number of markerlights they can throw out/objectives they can cap.
Wow that's a lot of salt about shield drones. Well, as a Tau player I can give you some advice for playing against drones beyond the usual "shoot the drones first." For starters, read both the tactical drones datasheet and the latest FAQ since SP gets changed almost every FAQ. The basic shield drone has a 4++ and 5+++. FW drones are mostly overcosted across the board so the only ones you will ever see are usually technical drones which just repair suits. Once you know what they actually do, it should be a lot easier to keep from getting tilted and as a result less likely to misplay against them.
You've got 3 options for playing against drone heavy lists.
1. Forcing SP Rolls by targeting the suits:
Yes, SP turns any wound into a single mortal wound which is incredibly strong against things like lascannons with low ROF, but it also means they are significantly less effective against high strength, high ROF, and low/medium AP. The standard battle cannon and basilisks are pretty good at forcing lots of SP rolls and the Tau player will bleed through drones much more quickly while more shots will slip past the drones. This gets compounded even further in the morale phase because of the drones base leadership of 5 although ethereals can provide leadership much like commisars do without the blam reroll.
2. Targeting the drones directly: A T4 unit with 4++, 5+++ is incredibly tough for 10pts a pop, but you have to remember the points add up quickly. A typical list runs about 30-40 drones so that is a significant chunk of their list. For actually killing the drones, high ROF with 0 ap is ideal for getting through the invuln while multi damage drastically reduces the effectiveness of the FNP since they still only have 1 wound. Just like before, LD5 means that drone units are going to take significant losses to morale without an ethereal or 2 CP to autopass. Even if the drones are hidden out of LOS, mortars and basilisks can put a dent in the drones from safety since your non-LOS significantly out ranges Tau non-LOS.
3. Ignore the suits and the drones. Kill the infantry first
Pretty self explanatory. Infantry are t3 and heavy bolters etc will make quick work of them denying the Tau player board control. Without board control, you will outscore them while making it very risky to hunt your backline arty. Coldstars aren't cheap and losing one is a significant especially given the Commander limit. Enforcers obey the standard deep strike rules and typically have 18" range with CiB's so you can screen accordingly. If they are using a custom Sept it may be extended out to 22" with Hybridized weaponry. Crisis suits are no different.
As a side note, learn which units have fly and which do not:
Broadsides do not have fly like almost every other suit so tagging them in melee generally shuts them down if you can survive overwatch. Most of the suits have fly so tying them up in melee generally doesn't work. Do not charge a Y'Vahra from LOS. If it can overwatch it will end you.
Hope this helps. The new PA book might shift the meta a bit, but generally speaking these tactics work against non-mechanized tau. Mech tau cannot use SP for vehicles so blast away.
Edit: added some spacing so its easier to read
Regarding the drones SP I have an understanding question:
As far as I understand, SP is triggered, when the wound roll is passed and can than stop the attack sequence. When I understand the deathstrike datasheet right, there is never a wound roll made, as it just causes mortal wounds for every HIT. Does that mean, that SP can not tank the death strike missile?
Pyroalchi wrote: Regarding the drones SP I have an understanding question:
As far as I understand, SP is triggered, when the wound roll is passed and can than stop the attack sequence. When I understand the deathstrike datasheet right, there is never a wound roll made, as it just causes mortal wounds for every HIT. Does that mean, that SP can not tank the death strike missile?
Correct. SP can block mortal wounds but only if they are associated with an attack that passed the wound roll. So a deathstrike missile cannot be intercepted at all, but a ratling wound roll of 6+ can be intercepted with a single SP. Targeting suits with mortal wounds is extremely effective.
Direct firing drones also runs into major issue in los. Unless you can shoot indirect opponent just puts them behind terrain. Drones are easy to hide. So frfsrf lasguns etc are out. Wyverns, mortars etc can work at least.
But unlike say grots they don't need to be at front or in sight
At last, 2 years and a half later, they have fixed the Tempestus Doctrine problem and now I can use my bullgryns in my tempestus detachment without losing my special rules!
Bless be GW!
After reading this Psychic Awakening book, I have realized that most of the improvements both at least for Tau and Imperial Guard are for the worst units, or the worse weapon options (For example, railcannon hammerheads or broadsides). Theres a couple of competitive gems there but in general I don't see them improve that much the overall power of the faction, we aren't marines afterall. is more of a sidegrade, improving bad or underperforming units.
The level of that improvement... eh... nobody is gonna spent a relic slot to make a unit of pathfinders have their markerlights be assault (As they always should had been) instead of heavy.
more of a sidegrade, improving bad or underperforming units.
GW is a fashion retail sales company. Like any retail company, if a product line underperforms, they adjust the product for better market fit or pull it or use marketing to improve product appeal. GW adjusts underperforming (thus underselling) product lines to boost sales. Simultaneously they please their audience by appearing to gift them more toys or make existing toys more popular, thus improving their brand image. Veteran customers that already own the product line won't buy more unless there is a reason to keep buying the same products, so they bring out new flavours and styles (custom regiments, buffs) and push old popular products that everyone now owns out of style (not buffing good units, nerfs) so the audience feels good about replacing or augmenting their 'wardrobe'.
There's no need to detract from what GW does - every retail company does this. But there's no mystery why.
Chadians can do 6D6 with rerolling to hit snd potentially rerolling 1s to would with laurels.
Consolidate Squads only works on Infantry Squads (the data sheet on page 93) not on other infantry units. So your heavy weapons squad is only firing 3d6 mortar shots.
Those of you that use Baneblade chassis tanks (outside of full-on super-heavy detachments), I ask you how you use your Baneblade?
Are you taking it to supplement the mainstay strength of your army, or are you using it cover a weakness of your army?
For example, let’s say you have an artillery focused army. Are you taking a Banesword to strengthen your artillery core, or would you rather take a Stormlord to rush in and halt the enemy advance while your artillery pounds away at the enemy ?
I like to take the shadowsword so i can absolutely yeet enemy vehicles. Can't say i've taken it lately as I've mostly played smaller point values but it demolishes anything without an invun and provided you can roll somewhat decently for damage even the stuff with an invun won't like the wounds that slip through.
That said they cost so much that they kinda become the mainstay of whatever role you're having them, they're not very competitive however as tank commanders beat them on pretty much every metric.
When I take a Baneblade its because I don’t care about being efficient and just want to blow stuff up with the biggest, killiest machine Guard can throw down. Vostroyan with every upgrade in a detachment with Yarrick and a Salamander command vehicle for rerollable 2+ shots. The rest of the army is just there to support it.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Riptides have the *Battlesuit* keyword, not the *Monster* keyword
MrMoustaffa wrote: Shield drones with that 4++/5+++ are brutal to try and kill and it feels like it's more work to kill them directly than what they're shielding directly sometimes. I mean heck, something like a Punisher cannon is only really killing 4-5 a volley if you're lucky.
Those 3 wyverns hitting on 4s are gonna kill 3.5 drones on average
Yikes guys....Like, wow....
There is some serious misinformation being posted here. It seems this thread is filled with people that have not done any research nor know how to do math-hammer to obtain expected averages.
I guess I could try to further explain but it's looking kind of futile. I think I'll be leaving now.
If you know more about Tau please enlighten me, I'm being completely serious, I will take any advice I can get. Because I've currently got a Tau player with some sort of FW drones that have a 4+ invuln and a 5+ fnp and if I find out he's cheating he's getting punched. Right now if I shoot a target, he savior protocols on a 2+, and regardless of whether it's a lasgun or a shadowsword wound it can only kill one drone. Except oh wait, he can use a 5+ FNP on savior protocol and not even lose the drone. Because it doesn't matter how much damage I do per shot, it converts to a single MW because whoever wrote the Tau codex needs to play against that and know what suffering he unleashed into the world. I try shooting the shield drones directly, and now they get a 4+ invuln and a 5+ fnp which means for every 10 wounds I get on them I'm getting maybe 3 kills. And that's if he rolls average. I've had two full volleys of Reaper chaincannons with VoTL hitting on 2's rerolling and wounding on 2's kill 1 drone per volley, and many times that weren't far off. I know part of that is luck but when you watch it happen every game and you know your opponent isn't fudging dice you just sort of go crazy after a while.
As far as I can tell, shield drones are the most busted thing in this game mechanically and if I ever meet the person who wrote their rules I might actually chew them out. Unless I screwed my math up, a tank commander rerolling ones with it's punisher turret kills between 6-7 drones total (ignoring sponsons and hull bolters just for ease of math), which would make my claim of 3-4 dead per volley correct. I really want to be wrong here, if you know a way to beat these damn things please tell me. Because best I can tell there is nothing in the game that efficiently kills drones, except maybe FRFSRF lasgun fire.
No, how you described it is how it works. Its not FW drones, they are just basic shield drones. You are not getting cheated. Without Shield Drones/savior protocol mechanic tau would be like wood tier army, they would die so fast. You have to use a lot of shots to get them down, AP 0 is fine, unless you have something that can ignore invuls.
Badablack wrote: When I take a Baneblade its because I don’t care about being efficient and just want to blow stuff up with the biggest, killiest machine Guard can throw down. Vostroyan with every upgrade in a detachment with Yarrick and a Salamander command vehicle for rerollable 2+ shots. The rest of the army is just there to support it.
I've done stuff like that in pick-up games at my FLGS40K night. Throw every possible upgrade on something and just see how much havoc it can cause before it goes down.
So are 'Full Payload' support Tank Aces going to just be plain meta now? Hammer of Sunderance is good simply for the fixed damage and now you can have 2 more that fire indirectly at str 9 and AP 3?
Just seems like such an obvious firepower upgrade.
I do like the Full Payload upgrade on a manticore, the more shoots are amazing and sometimes ap-2 is enought. There is also the new strat to give them +1 to hit which is not available to Basilisks
Babar_babar wrote: I do like the Full Payload upgrade on a manticore, the more shoots are amazing and sometimes ap-2 is enought. There is also the new strat to give them +1 to hit which is not available to Basilisks
Yeah but Basilisk have access to 'Aerial Spotters' (at a higher CP cost though).
Either way I am finding it hard not to have 2 'Full Support' Tank Aces whether Manticore or Basilisk.
Are the Warlord traits really worth literally giving up 50% damage increase for an artillery piece?
Maxzero wrote: Are the Warlord traits really worth literally giving up 50% damage increase for an artillery piece?
I think that some of the Russ ace abilities are probably worth it. Putting the -1 damage on your Sunderance TC is pretty nice. Or a shadowsword with the perma-cover, as cover is hard to get on such a large model.
Maxzero wrote: Are the Warlord traits really worth literally giving up 50% damage increase for an artillery piece?
I think that some of the Russ ace abilities are probably worth it. Putting the -1 damage on your Sunderance TC is pretty nice. Or a shadowsword with the perma-cover, as cover is hard to get on such a large model.
Yeah but thats my point. 2 X Tank Ace seems like a no brainer.
I just like 'Fully Loaded' because the only thing better then one Sunderance is three.
I tend to agree, if for another reason. By removing the trait from your warlord, it makes it less of a target. So maybe it will live longer if you don't also lose a trait when they die.
Maxzero wrote: Are the Warlord traits really worth literally giving up 50% damage increase for an artillery piece?
I think that some of the Russ ace abilities are probably worth it. Putting the -1 damage on your Sunderance TC is pretty nice. Or a shadowsword with the perma-cover, as cover is hard to get on such a large model.
Yeah but thats my point. 2 X Tank Ace seems like a no brainer.
I just like 'Fully Loaded' because the only thing better then one Sunderance is three.
It is stronger than any of the warlord traits except old grudges when facing a 400+ point target. Losing old grudges will hurt when going up against knights.
Depending on whether you're taking scions or not you might want to take a scion trait rather than old grudges. Idk, I don't think we can outright say whether taking 2 tank aces is always the right decision, a lot is going to come down to how each army is built, a list that's banking on scions might well want 2 warlord traits and a single tank ace while other lists want 2 tank aces and a single warlord trait. Definitely nice to have the option however.
It's also worth noting that field commander is a thing and can let us gain one of the vigilus detachment warlord traits.
Babar_babar wrote: If you bring Militarum Tempestus you can always use the new strat to get a second WT and take OG
There are a few minor problems though. You would be giving OG to a Tempestor. So it sort of restricts the use of that model. You either can't buff your gunline or have to keep the Tempestor back near other units. Plus if you want to use another trait, like grand stratagist, you may lose it if you want to drop your Tempestor with you Scions.
A useful option but it does have drawbacks. I think the best part is that you can decide at the start of the battle, so you have some flexibility.
i think it depends on the matchup. WLT for Grand Stratagist and Old Grudges are very good, and I don't see a 2nd tank ace making up for that.
That tank ace is going to be priority number 1, even with 2+ armor or -1 . I don't think any of the leman russ tank aces are worth taking in this meta, to many things can 1 shot them. Better off just taking tallarn TC and using shoot and scoot to hide.
Indirct fire TA is going to be the go to IMO. Full payload with Emp Arty Wrath detachment shooting twice, ignore LoS and cover with the right combos.
Maxzero wrote: Are the Warlord traits really worth literally giving up 50% damage increase for an artillery piece?
I think that some of the Russ ace abilities are probably worth it. Putting the -1 damage on your Sunderance TC is pretty nice. Or a shadowsword with the perma-cover, as cover is hard to get on such a large model.
Yeah but thats my point. 2 X Tank Ace seems like a no brainer.
I just like 'Fully Loaded' because the only thing better then one Sunderance is three.
It is stronger than any of the warlord traits except old grudges when facing a 400+ point target. Losing old grudges will hurt when going up against knights.
Can you swap tank aces like you can wt depending on what you want?
tneva82 wrote: Can you swap tank aces like you can wt depending on what you want?
Yes. The first one is done instead of the warlord trait, so it would be whenever you normally do that. The second one is a stratagem, so you can do it at the start of the battle.
Kinda disappointed with the superheavy tank ace abilities tbqh.
I run a bunch of superheavies and these are largely useless. The only marginal one is the cover one, but I typically try to move (since they're quite good at combat and don't have NLOS weapons).
The morale one is cool for lore reasons but not really relevant to gameplay in my opinion.
The one where it keeps its regimental doctrines even while alone is naff.
Babar_babar wrote: I do like the Full Payload upgrade on a manticore, the more shoots are amazing and sometimes ap-2 is enought. There is also the new strat to give them +1 to hit which is not available to Basilisks
Yeah but Basilisk have access to 'Aerial Spotters' (at a higher CP cost though).
Either way I am finding it hard not to have 2 'Full Support' Tank Aces whether Manticore or Basilisk.
Are the Warlord traits really worth literally giving up 50% damage increase for an artillery piece?
Tank Ace stratagem specifies: "You can only use this Stratagem once per battle." So no having 2 tank aces I'm afraid.
Tank Ace stratagem specifies: "You can only use this Stratagem once per battle." So no having 2 tank aces I'm afraid.
2nd would be by replacing warlord trait. There's 3 ways to get tank ace(s):
a) replace warlord trait to tank ace. Free(but of course your warlord has no trait then)
b) spend 1CP to give tank ace instead. 1 tank ace, costs CP c) Combine and b for 2 losing your warlord's trait and CP
Kcalehc wrote: Tank Ace stratagem specifies: "You can only use this Stratagem once per battle." So no having 2 tank aces I'm afraid.
Though a Tallarn Deathstrike, coming on in T3 from Ambush, using Full Payload, and Vortex Missile, could be doing an average of 12 Mortal Wounds to a target, and then D3 MW on units nearby on a 3+, and potentially a further D6MW on any unit wounded. Pretty sure that's going to clip even a Knight down to next to nothing. Assuming you can get the shot off of course!
You are missing the fact that you can get two aces by trading in your warlord's trait.
Also, full payload won't affect the deathstrike, as it never uses it's damage characteristic.
Edit: beaten to it on that first point...
Edit2: I'm guessing you meant well-stocked magazines, for the shot number reroll. That would work.
Tank Ace stratagem specifies: "You can only use this Stratagem once per battle." So no having 2 tank aces I'm afraid.
2nd would be by replacing warlord trait. There's 3 ways to get tank ace(s):
a) replace warlord trait to tank ace. Free(but of course your warlord has no trait then)
b) spend 1CP to give tank ace instead. 1 tank ace, costs CP c) Combine and b for 2 losing your warlord's trait and CP
What? Can you clarify point C please. I am not following?
I thought you can only get 2 max, one to replace warlord, and a 2nd for the stratagem for 1 CP.
Tank Ace stratagem specifies: "You can only use this Stratagem once per battle." So no having 2 tank aces I'm afraid.
2nd would be by replacing warlord trait. There's 3 ways to get tank ace(s):
a) replace warlord trait to tank ace. Free(but of course your warlord has no trait then)
b) spend 1CP to give tank ace instead. 1 tank ace, costs CP c) Combine and b for 2 losing your warlord's trait and CP
What? Can you clarify point C please. I am not following?
I thought you can only get 2 max, one to replace warlord, and a 2nd for the stratagem for 1 CP.
I think that they meant "combine a and b for 2", so the same as you are saying.
I don't think it does. You could still make a company commander your warlord, he just wouldn't have a trait after you give it up. Unless I missed something.
In ITC format the warlord has to be declared during list submission so I think a tank ace warlord replacement would have to be at the same time, but I'm not sure they will have to FAQ that.
Upon more thought it's really list dependent on which is better.
If I go 2 demolisher manticore and hammer of sunderance tank commander then 2 aces is best.
If I dump the manticore for a 3rd demolisher then a warlord trait would be better. The extra defensive stats for the 3rd demolisher won't matter until the first 2 get blown up.
Id say taking a single ace you want it to be a flat 3 damage artillery piece. As for which you pick, depends on regiment. Manticore is pretty much Catachans and custom tank regiments only in my opinion, without the option to reroll shots it's far too swingy. The basilisk is far more reliable for all regiments and can fire twice a turn with full rerolls using aerial spotter. Yes that's 4cp a turn but that many flat 3 damage shots rerolling to hit is probably worth it, especially with the CP we have laying around.
I could see running two aces time to time, for example if you're fighting an opponent with lots of 2-3 damage weapons and want your hammer of sunderance to live longer, or are fighting VH sisters and know you need ap3 to do anything. But most of the time I'd stick with one I'd imagine. Old grudges and Grand Strategist are just too handy.
In other news, I find myself wondering if you can make the custom regiments Superior to the standby Cadian and Catachan builds. A custom combo regiment using 18" rapid fire and cover on infantry with the vehicle detachment taking reroll shot number and +6" range would be the nastiest I think. Your infantry are the toughest and shootiest point for point of the regiments, although I can see a use for ap1 melee weapons in areas that deal with a lot of ignores cover. Also our tanks can really abuse those two tank traits. Especially since the Spotter detail works on ALL heavy weapons, so hull heavy flamers are actually useful with a 14" range, and stuff like demolishers and Hellhounds have increased range to do their jobs. Yes it leaves Punishers in the cold a bit but even they get +6" range.
You lose regiment specific stuff but I feel being able to get essentially 4 traits on a single army is worth it. These traits let you stay mobile and give you good firepower, and even keeps your infantry around longer. Can't knock that. Key is just maximizing your traits and regular strats to make up for losing something like Overlapping fields of fire or straken. Shame we got relatively few traits, especially when some like the monster Hunter and pyromaniac ones are pretty trash. Eldar got what, 30? I know most were pretty bad but surely they had a few more ideas for IG regiments than that
Unfortunatly the +6'' for Leman Russ weapons only counts for weapons with a range of at least 24''. It would be great otherwise with the flamers, but hey, it's still really good.
I just can't give up the Tallarn movemement doctrine for my vehicles. It just opens up so many different weapon builds. For example, demolishers with plasma sponsons are bit dangerous without Tallarn, as you have a decent chance of melting yourself firing 2d3 plasma that overheat on 2s. Sentinels without Tallarn feel like expensive tarantulas. Same with transports, they just feel like they want to be bunkers.
I am tempted with custom super-heavy doctrines, as Tallarn doesn't really do much for them. A supreme command shadowsword with repairs and gunnery experts would be nice. Add in some combination of 3 commissars/psykers to fill up the slots without the doctrine being important. You could even use the auxilliary tank ace if you think the 3 hqs are a bit of a tax.
I think that I will use the Experienced Eye stratagem often for my Cadian plasma veterans. They usually grav chute from my Valkyries so they need a lieutenant to give them the Take Aim order so they can reroll ones to hit. Fire supercharged, hit on 3s, reroll ones, wound marines on 2s, negates their 3+ armor, and does 2 wounds to do more damage to Primaris marines and other multiwound models. Add an astropath if you want to ignore cover but pick your targets carefully if you want the vets to live more than one turn on their drop zone.
Is this combination good for an infantry army?
-Disciplined Shooters
-Wilderness Survivors
Those only affect infantry, so for vehicles I would probably put them in a separate detachment with a separate regimental doctrine, like say Catachans for my Basilisks, with Sergeant Harker giving them the reroll 1s to hit?
ph34r wrote: Is this combination good for an infantry army?
-Disciplined Shooters
-Wilderness Survivors
It seems to be the combo on everybody's lips. I think it will work quite well, although I don't know if things like Catachan/Cadian will be better. The unique relics/stratagems/orders they can get are pretty nice.
ph34r wrote: Is this combination good for an infantry army?
-Disciplined Shooters
-Wilderness Survivors
It seems to be the combo on everybody's lips. I think it will work quite well, although I don't know if things like Catachan/Cadian will be better. The unique relics/stratagems/orders they can get are pretty nice.
I'll still be bringing some Catachan, but my Cadians will likely be replaced with the custom regiment. The strategem they get is nice, but as most of the games I play are almost purely objective based and against higher toughness targets, I haven't had good use of their regimental bonus in some time.
Hello AM: Tactics - I havent even bought the codex yet and I've never played IG. However - I do have an IG army I picked up.
I want to know what HQs you would run with these tanks or how you would run the troops? I have no local Guard players that run Russes in this amount of spam.
1x Vanquisher LR 1x Executioner (Side Plasma) LR,
3x Leman Russ Main Battle Tank (Side Heavy Bolters)
2x Demolisher Siege Tanks (Side Multi-Meltas, HF Front)
2x Hell Hound
2x Manticores
and 70 Infantry that is mostly unbuilt.
I assumed I'd run some blobs of infantry for a CP battery and then run Valhalan or Catachan. I'm really unfamiliar with how a tank army such as this would run. Would I need to add manticores?
Unfortunately, the Vanquisher is horrible these days. However, it makes a really good model to represent the Hammer of Sunderance, a relic battlecannon from the Vigilus Defiant book. The Hammer of Sunderance is really good and makes a great tank commander HQ for your army.
Unfortunately, the Vanquisher is horrible these days. However, it makes a really good model to represent the Hammer of Sunderance, a relic battlecannon from the Vigilus Defiant book. The Hammer of Sunderance is really good and makes a great tank commander HQ for your army.
Saved / is Vigilus Defiant tournament legal/used often?
Just checked the rules and it looks great! I'll use that (and its for any regiment)
Looking at the greater good strategem "experiences eyes" I'm thinking a bit about putting a veteran squad with three flamers and a heavy flamer in a chimera... The +1 AP seems quite nice on those to me and assuming "bring it down" or if you are catachan "burn them out" being ordered they should be able to make quite some damage. I'm just really undecided if it is a sensible investment. Roughly calculating the combo should kill around 6 MEQs on average. What is your opinion on that?
If I move normally during the movement phase, then "Move, Move, Move" in the shooting phase, do the infantry still get cover?
Wilderness survivors specifically says the units that "did not advance in the previous movement phase" get benefits of cover.
Sounds like it would still work. But I bet you can expect an FAQ incoming to nerf that, just cuz.
Doubt it.
Its a pretty obviously intentional. 'Move! Move! Move!' is probably one of the most well know and used AM orders and 'Wilderness Survivors' rule specifically mentions advancing in the movement phase in an army known for it's infantry advancing in the shooting phase.
If I move normally during the movement phase, then "Move, Move, Move" in the shooting phase, do the infantry still get cover?
Wilderness survivors specifically says the units that "did not advance in the previous movement phase" get benefits of cover.
Sounds like it would still work. But I bet you can expect an FAQ incoming to nerf that, just cuz.
Doubt it.
Its a pretty obviously intentional. 'Move! Move! Move!' is probably one of the most well know and used AM orders and 'Wilderness Survivors' rule specifically mentions advancing in the movement phase in an army known for it's infantry advancing in the shooting phase.
You say that as if GW didn't accidentally give Meganobz a 2++ one time.
Honestly I wish MMM would be deleted. It seems to be the root cause of so many problems.
Would you all say that a Manticore is a must-have due to the Support Tank Ace abilities and the +1 to hit (visible enemy only) Strategem? Or would you say that they're tied in utility with bringing a second Basalisk in an Emperor's Wrath Artillery detachment?
I've already got a Basalisk, three Russes (2 BC, 1 Demo) and two Tank Commanders, so I want to know how much more vehicle I need.
Arcanis161 wrote: Would you all say that a Manticore is a must-have due to the Support Tank Ace abilities and the +1 to hit (visible enemy only) Strategem? Or would you say that they're tied in utility with bringing a second Basalisk in an Emperor's Wrath Artillery detachment?
I've already got a Basalisk, three Russes (2 BC, 1 Demo) and two Tank Commanders, so I want to know how much more vehicle I need.
Manticore is way less CP intensive, but it's only going to fire at most 4 times, and has way less ways to boost accuracy. You also need ways to reroll the shot, because I've tried manticores in non Catachan lists before and rolling something like 4 shots hurts, especially since you're relying on this to be a hammer of Sunderance that ignores LoS. I wouldn't bank on the +1 BS if you can see the target much, maybe if you were Tallarn I could see it. Issue being manticores die fast, if the opponent can see it it's dead. Also remember manticores trade ap3 for that s10, very helpful vs Chaos knights and T5 targets like thundercav.
Basilisk is way more consistent and shoots longer, but does less damage. This is countered by the fact that it gets way better accuracy (aerial spotters) and it can match the manticores rate of fire but we're talking 6 cp just to setup the first barrage between artillery formation, tank Ace, aerial spotters, and the fire again strat. Guard may have CP to burn but that's a bit excessive. It also has twice the range if that matters but S9 is inconvenient for a weapon with that flat 3 damage.
For what it's worth, manticores are easier to hide. And most likely neither of these tanks are living very long. Most likely they'll get 1 to 2 volleys before your opponent realizes what is going on and prioritizes it, most likely once he's dealt with your demolishers and hammer. I feel it depends on the list, but the manticore in the right regiment is probably more powerful than the basilisk in it's best regiment.
If you're planning on multiple artillery pieces, basilisks are a lot more consistent and with the 2d6 drop lowest shots do very well for regiments that don't have a reroll ability like cadians. That way they can just take advantage of their regiment ability like cadians hit bonuses or Valhallans better damage table. I feel like the manticore is better as a "I've got one slot for artillery and not a ton of points, but need as much bang for the buck as possible."
The Manticore is certainly the more efficient use of the support ace max damage ability because as Moustaffa has pointed out there's no additional CP tax to get extra shots.
I am going to be taking a Master of Ordnance while I test out the new custom regiment rules with Gunnery Experts, which seems like its going to be great on both the Manticore and Basilisk. The MoO is just a no brainer now I think even in a Cadian list, with 6 Basilisk-lite shots at BS3+ for only 30 pts and 1 CP, on top of the re-roll aura.
I'm weighing up whether to take a Wyvern personally at the moment alongside my Manticore and two Basilisks in my EW Artillery Battalion as trash clearance. Got the idea having read a few pages back on the shield drone debate, having looked at the numbers It looks like it can kill 8-9 Shield Drones in the first turn. Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to play the infamous Riptide/Drone list yet at my local so I don't know how disruptive that would be to a Riptide spam list along with everything else unloading as well
Shame about the 36" limit on the MoO though, it really hurts the usefulness of that ability. To get it to work you really have to put it in a corner. Plus if you want to use it you may have to give up shooting on something really vital that is about to hit your line. I think I would use a MoO in a wrath company, but not normally.
Trickstick wrote: Shame about the 36" limit on the MoO though, it really hurts the usefulness of that ability. To get it to work you really have to put it in a corner.
Am I the only person that always forms a geometrically sound parking lot at the most extreme corner of the board with my artillery?
Its something I do in competitive games, anyways. In casual games I prefer the battery to look visually interesting.
The Manticore is certainly the more efficient use of the support ace max damage ability because as Moustaffa has pointed out there's no additional CP tax to get extra shots.
I am going to be taking a Master of Ordnance while I test out the new custom regiment rules with Gunnery Experts, which seems like its going to be great on both the Manticore and Basilisk. The MoO is just a no brainer now I think even in a Cadian list, with 6 Basilisk-lite shots at BS3+ for only 30 pts and 1 CP, on top of the re-roll aura.
I'm weighing up whether to take a Wyvern personally at the moment alongside my Manticore and two Basilisks in my EW Artillery Battalion as trash clearance. Got the idea having read a few pages back on the shield drone debate, having looked at the numbers It looks like it can kill 8-9 Shield Drones in the first turn. Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to play the infamous Riptide/Drone list yet at my local so I don't know how disruptive that would be to a Riptide spam list along with everything else unloading as well
A single Mortar HWS with the Concentrated Fire Stratagem is 3D6str 4 attacks that hit on 3+ with +1 to wound for 45 points.
Haldawe wrote: Only want to notify that with the new errata, they have changed the demolisher cannon from 1D6 shots to 1 shot on all chasis (I guess because of the 12 shot strat)
Can you point out where you saw this? It does not seem correct.
Haldawe wrote: Only want to notify that with the new errata, they have changed the demolisher cannon from 1D6 shots to 1 shot on all chasis (I guess because of the 12 shot strat)
Can you point out where you saw this? It does not seem correct.
Because it is incorrect, my bad xD was checking all errata and somehow managed to read that wrongly
The Manticore is certainly the more efficient use of the support ace max damage ability because as Moustaffa has pointed out there's no additional CP tax to get extra shots.
I am going to be taking a Master of Ordnance while I test out the new custom regiment rules with Gunnery Experts, which seems like its going to be great on both the Manticore and Basilisk. The MoO is just a no brainer now I think even in a Cadian list, with 6 Basilisk-lite shots at BS3+ for only 30 pts and 1 CP, on top of the re-roll aura.
I'm weighing up whether to take a Wyvern personally at the moment alongside my Manticore and two Basilisks in my EW Artillery Battalion as trash clearance. Got the idea having read a few pages back on the shield drone debate, having looked at the numbers It looks like it can kill 8-9 Shield Drones in the first turn. Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to play the infamous Riptide/Drone list yet at my local so I don't know how disruptive that would be to a Riptide spam list along with everything else unloading as well
A single Mortar HWS with the Concentrated Fire Stratagem is 3D6str 4 attacks that hit on 3+ with +1 to wound for 45 points.
Wyvern is really hard to justify.
Mortars will average 10.5 shots.
Wyvern with full magazines will average 18 shots
Same to wound agaisnt shield drones if mortars spend a CP
Mortars hit on 3+ with a CP, wyverns get rerolls to wound.
They can compete against each other. If you need 1 a list should have both.
If you really need the mortars then the wyvern can shoot twice for 2 CP and dump out an average of 36 shots.
I am creating an aircav army at the moment with three detachments:
1. Tempestus, Primes and Officers of the Fleet riding Valkyries
2. Airwing with Vulture, two thunderbolts and possibly a lightning
3. Fast attack detachment with 3 Lascannon Taurus Venators, a Hellhound and a Cyclops.
Now the Tempestus got some shiny new regimantal traits which make them very happy, but I am not certain at all what to do with the other detachments. Does it care for the airwing, is a regiment any use to them (perhaps for a strategem?) And is there anything better to choose for the Fast attack detachment then Gunnery expert (Reroll for the Hellhound and Cyclops) and Jury-Rigged?
Not sure will I ever create this but on facebook group there was photo of guy playing with 240 infantry model. So......I started looking at what sort of infantry mess I can create...
So start wit 3 battallions. First one has 2 company commanders, 6 infantry squads with lascannon and 3x3 mortar teams.
Second bat. Company commander, lord commisar, 2x30 conscript, 4 infantry squads with lascannon. 3 platoon commanders
Third bat. Scion one with extra AP trait. 2 primes, 6x10 scions, 2 command squad, all with volley shot guns.
This adds up to 1806(really I only added lascannons when I realized how little points I had spent yet...).
For 2k...dunno. Swap command squads to melta guns for deep strike AT busters...
The amount of bodies(246 I think) and shots(if it gets into range and replace all scions with infantry squads would be outshooting my ~100 sister army if I were stupid enough to march into range of every lasgun...) is just insane.
Tanks would have field day though. And numarines probably shoot them off board no problemo.
I might be able to upgrade one bat to brigade. Extra HQ, 3 fast attack so guess 3 sentinels.
In the dark days of 7th I was creeping up to 200 infantry in some games, along with the other infantry heavy players if I remember right. What I found was the biggest tactical issue wasn't firepower or staying power (at least if I wasn't fighting triptide) the biggest issue was fitting ten pounds of gak in a 5pound deployment zone.
You basically hit a point where you just don't have room to put squads down optimally. Squads start getting out in buildings, in corners, wherever you can find a space, just to get them out of the way. You have firepower, but you can't concentrate it. You have numbers, but you can't bring them to bear so you're defeated in detail. That said good luck to any opponent, even numarines, in chewing through all that. Especially if you took Valhallans or the new cover regiment.
Stormtroopers are definitely critical. I would take a full batallion of them if nothing else to just free up deployment space.
MrMoustaffa wrote: In the dark days of 7th I was creeping up to 200 infantry in some games, along with the other infantry heavy players if I remember right. What I found was the biggest tactical issue wasn't firepower or staying power (at least if I wasn't fighting triptide) the biggest issue was fitting ten pounds of gak in a 5pound deployment zone.
You basically hit a point where you just don't have room to put squads down optimally. Squads start getting out in buildings, in corners, wherever you can find a space, just to get them out of the way. You have firepower, but you can't concentrate it. You have numbers, but you can't bring them to bear so you're defeated in detail. That said good luck to any opponent, even numarines, in chewing through all that. Especially if you took Valhallans or the new cover regiment.
Stormtroopers are definitely critical. I would take a full batallion of them if nothing else to just free up deployment space.
Yeah that's why I took like 70 of the storm troopers. That's quite a lot of bodies that don't have to be in deployment zone.
One regular battalion could be tallarn for more outflanking fun. Other maybe catachan with sraken and couple priests.
Oh yeah I noticed. Pure infantry is very interesting right now because you have so few slots to work with. Without platoons, it's surprisingly difficult to pack guardsmen in without resorting to conscripts. Part of why I wish we had kept that system but I understand why it's gone. Filling out formations with platoons would have been a lot harder, especially since you'd be buying 4 units now that the command squad is split from it's commander.
Question is which regiments and abilities you go for. And really there's a lot of good answers
1. Catachans provide solid melee that you absolutely want in order to survive melee deathstars as well as LD and really good characters.
2. Cadians provide good fire support, and Creed really comes into his own in a Cadian guardsmen line.
3. Valhallans have somewhat usable conscripts and the ability to knock stuff out of combat, as well as morale mitigation.
4. Mordians offer orders for sniping, better overwatch, and LD.
5. Tallarn for mobility and flanking
6. Custom regiment for durability and better firepower since you'll have so many lasguns.
Really the only regiments that don't do much is Vostroyan and armegeddon. The question is which does the most for you and how you want to play. I feel the best option is the custom regiment for cover and rapid fire, but you could make strong arguments for many combos, and that's ignoring stormtroopers entirely, which are also strong.
Other than that, every squad gets a heavy weapon, at least a missile launcher, and with that many squads I'd say vox casters are probably worth it, so that your officers can be spread out but concentrate all their orders on the flank that matters most. Other than that, priests are mandatory just to double your melee and commissars might be worth it due to how much morale you'll roll. Lasguns handle anything t5 or under, missile launchers and lascannons handle the big things by volume, and you just hope your stormtrooper doom drop can actually fit somewhere useful
Playing in a narrative escalation campaign. Every month your army grows by 250, and you cannot change a thing from the previous one, you have to build on top. For the 500 and 750 I brought a more or less fun, narrative list (CC left alone on the crumbling planet, gathers troops around him, so no Sunderance Commander, only viable unit I have is a hellhound). I got Tyranids next turn, and he is an old friend of mine, and I really want to maximize my list against him from my 250 (345 actually, I used a vindicare, and since I used the strat during deployment, it's not in my list per se). No detachment constraints, fix 11 CP. My list for the 750 as follows (keep in mind, so far this was narrative and fun):
Catachan WL Trait Company Commander with Marmorth Tuskblade
Commissar
Priest
Nid guy brought 2 fly tyrants, 6-7 warriors, 1x3 ripper swarm, 1*20 hormagaunts previously, kraken hive fleet. Used flyrants for distraction, rushed objective with others.
Next mission will be on a regular 6*4, we start from the same side of a river, one bridge, have to melee the objective on the other side for points. FLY units cannot melee it, and no one is permitted to deploy outside the zone, no deep strikes. How would you approach it? Let's say I have every single unit available. (My fun tactic was to dick around with everyone until the bullgryns get in close with the HH and priest and maul everything.)
I thought of a valkyrie, maybe an inquisitor or Culexus against smite spam, and use the remaining 100-120 for kitting out the valk and a) putting some heavy firepower in it in the form of a veteran unit, or b) something othe than the bullgryns I can use for blocking the bridge, even though Kraken will get there before me with the 3d6 advances.
How would you approach this? I'm down for any cheesy mono IG stuff from these 345 that will help me win this game.
Keep in mind you still need to pay for assasin. You don't get him for free. You do get to choose WHICH assasin you take with the stratagem so can choose one suited for opponents army.
tneva82 wrote: Keep in mind you still need to pay for assasin. You don't get him for free. You do get to choose WHICH assasin you take with the stratagem so can choose one suited for opponents army.
Not in narrative play, that is only a rule in matched play.
tneva82 wrote: Keep in mind you still need to pay for assasin. You don't get him for free. You do get to choose WHICH assasin you take with the stratagem so can choose one suited for opponents army.
He made the point actually, he took the assassin via stratagem which means it isn't in the list so he can make the decision to drop it for the next step up, and use 250pt+95pt=345pts instead of 250pts and keeping the assassin
tneva82 wrote: Keep in mind you still need to pay for assasin. You don't get him for free. You do get to choose WHICH assasin you take with the stratagem so can choose one suited for opponents army.
He made the point actually, he took the assassin via stratagem which means it isn't in the list so he can make the decision to drop it for the next step up, and use 250pt+95pt=345pts instead of 250pts and keeping the assassin
Except he alrready said it's no balance so he plays with 95 pts more.
And one could arque removing reserve points is changing previous list
The Manticore is certainly the more efficient use of the support ace max damage ability because as Moustaffa has pointed out there's no additional CP tax to get extra shots.
I am going to be taking a Master of Ordnance while I test out the new custom regiment rules with Gunnery Experts, which seems like its going to be great on both the Manticore and Basilisk. The MoO is just a no brainer now I think even in a Cadian list, with 6 Basilisk-lite shots at BS3+ for only 30 pts and 1 CP, on top of the re-roll aura.
I'm weighing up whether to take a Wyvern personally at the moment alongside my Manticore and two Basilisks in my EW Artillery Battalion as trash clearance. Got the idea having read a few pages back on the shield drone debate, having looked at the numbers It looks like it can kill 8-9 Shield Drones in the first turn. Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to play the infamous Riptide/Drone list yet at my local so I don't know how disruptive that would be to a Riptide spam list along with everything else unloading as well
A single Mortar HWS with the Concentrated Fire Stratagem is 3D6str 4 attacks that hit on 3+ with +1 to wound for 45 points.
Wyvern is really hard to justify.
Mortars will average 10.5 shots.
Wyvern with full magazines will average 18 shots
Same to wound agaisnt shield drones if mortars spend a CP
Mortars hit on 3+ with a CP, wyverns get rerolls to wound.
They can compete against each other. If you need 1 a list should have both.
If you really need the mortars then the wyvern can shoot twice for 2 CP and dump out an average of 36 shots.
So I forego a Tank Ace on a Manticore/Basilisk and pay for a 150% point cost increase for an 80% increase in firepower? Seems like a great deal.
Yeah there is a reason they are not popular at the moment.
tneva82 wrote: Keep in mind you still need to pay for assasin. You don't get him for free. You do get to choose WHICH assasin you take with the stratagem so can choose one suited for opponents army.
He made the point actually, he took the assassin via stratagem which means it isn't in the list so he can make the decision to drop it for the next step up, and use 250pt+95pt=345pts instead of 250pts and keeping the assassin
Except he alrready said it's no balance so he plays with 95 pts more.
And one could arque removing reserve points is changing previous list
So for clarification: matched play, but because I brought in an assassin with the stratagem, technically it wasn't part of the list, I just left out 95 points for it. So instead of spending 250, I can spend 250+95 if I don't bring an assassin next time.
So any ideas? I thought of a Valkyrie, heavy bolter spam, I don't even have more ideas. I just need to get there faster than him, and close the bridge.
Some ideas to your problem, but please take it just as that, as I'm not really familiar with Tyranids and don't know how your table will look like.
So if I'm not completely mistaken those hormagaunts can move 8 + (3d6 pick the highest) x2 (with opportunistic advance) and might move a second time with metabolic overdrive. So they might move up to 40'', correct?
1. The Valkyrie is an excellent idea, especially since it will likely be useful in a variety of different scenarios, that you might encounter alongside your campaign.
2. One IG unit that moves surprisingly fast are Scout Sentinels. With Scout move (9''), normal move (9''), advance (D6') and "Go Recon" (2D6 Inch), you on average get 28''. IF you go first and this 28'' are enough to reach the bridge, the relatively large base of the Sentinels might(!) be enough to slow the bugs down a bit.
3. depending on how many rounds that mission will take a mean thing to do could be a Deathstrike that just remains in your deployment zone, ideally out of LOS. If the bugs just swarm the objective they risk being nicely bound up and eat a Vortex Missile turn 2 or 3. It's risky, but it might tempt him to spread his beasts more or divert some of them to your backfield.
You might even (it's not optimal, but in your case of limited Points possible), Exchange the Valks Hellstrikee Missiles with Missile Pods and ditch the Heavy Bolters to bring the Valk to 124 Points and squeeze in two of them. They can even fire their Missile Pods when advancing. So with this setup you could do the following:
a) order the Inf squads to "Move Move Move" and let them advance => they are 12+2D6'' from the Deployment Zone.
b) let all Bullgryns, the Commissar, Priest and Company Commander embark and fly+Advance to the objective (45+20'' should be enough for that). Don't forget to fire the Missile Pods at the Hormagaunts
c) go into hover mode turn two to let them savely disembark.
d) fly+ Advance back towards the Infantry squads that move again. Since they are now on average 25-28'' (depending on if they advanced) from the deployment zone and you have flown back ~24'' in their direction it could be enough that they can embark in the same turn. Fire the Missile Pods and the Multilaser again.
e) bring your Infantry to your Bullgryns.
=> that might be enough to even outrun the Tyranids.... maybe. But I'm just theorycrafting here
For my 345 poins, I thought of Hector Rex, a regular squad, a mortar HWS, and a Valkyrie. That would give me major psychic defence, some more bodies (if you table your enemy too soon, you are actually hindered, as the game ends and unopened loot is lost), and a cheap option to slowly clear his Terma blob and Ripper swarm.
However, there is a high risk version as well. Hector Rex, Valkyrie, Wyvern with vigilus artillery. I'll have enough CP for 2 turns of 4 CP stratagem shooting (shot twice, hit+1, reroll failed hits). That would clear the Terma blob first turn (18 dead models + possibly the rest of the squad if outside synapse), or a Genestealer squad, or the Warrior squad. I can't bring more bodies if I bring the Wyvern, but I can effectively clear out half his army with it.
Very, very nasty option, but the lack of 10 more bodies and the fast CP burning might be a big risk. How does this sound?
Pyroalchi wrote: Some ideas to your problem, but please take it just as that, as I'm not really familiar with Tyranids and don't know how your table will look like.
So if I'm not completely mistaken those hormagaunts can move 8 + (3d6 pick the highest) x2 (with opportunistic advance) and might move a second time with metabolic overdrive. So they might move up to 40'', correct?
1. The Valkyrie is an excellent idea, especially since it will likely be useful in a variety of different scenarios, that you might encounter alongside your campaign.
2. One IG unit that moves surprisingly fast are Scout Sentinels. With Scout move (9''), normal move (9''), advance (D6') and "Go Recon" (2D6 Inch), you on average get 28''. IF you go first and this 28'' are enough to reach the bridge, the relatively large base of the Sentinels might(!) be enough to slow the bugs down a bit.
3. depending on how many rounds that mission will take a mean thing to do could be a Deathstrike that just remains in your deployment zone, ideally out of LOS. If the bugs just swarm the objective they risk being nicely bound up and eat a Vortex Missile turn 2 or 3. It's risky, but it might tempt him to spread his beasts more or divert some of them to your backfield.
You might even (it's not optimal, but in your case of limited Points possible), Exchange the Valks Hellstrikee Missiles with Missile Pods and ditch the Heavy Bolters to bring the Valk to 124 Points and squeeze in two of them. They can even fire their Missile Pods when advancing. So with this setup you could do the following:
a) order the Inf squads to "Move Move Move" and let them advance => they are 12+2D6'' from the Deployment Zone.
b) let all Bullgryns, the Commissar, Priest and Company Commander embark and fly+Advance to the objective (45+20'' should be enough for that). Don't forget to fire the Missile Pods at the Hormagaunts
c) go into hover mode turn two to let them savely disembark.
d) fly+ Advance back towards the Infantry squads that move again. Since they are now on average 25-28'' (depending on if they advanced) from the deployment zone and you have flown back ~24'' in their direction it could be enough that they can embark in the same turn. Fire the Missile Pods and the Multilaser again.
e) bring your Infantry to your Bullgryns.
=> that might be enough to even outrun the Tyranids.... maybe. But I'm just theorycrafting here
Maybe, but doubtful. You forgot the 6" pile in and consolidate, and the 2d6 charge range. So now you are adding 13-24" more on the threat range. Hormagants are weak though. Screen properly, then just counter charge with bullgryns or Catachan infantry blobs and take them apart.
@ Dynas: My answer was specifically meant for the described scenario of both forces starting at the same table edge and racing towards an obective behind a bridge. Therefore I assume that screening/countercharging is in this scenario not really relevant for the guard player as the Tyranid does not move in his direction.
Regarding forgetting the charge + consolidate range: if they use metabolic overdrive to move a second time, they can not charge. So assuming they roll a 6 on their 3D6 advance they would have the choice between:
a) 8'' move + (2x3D6'' pick the highest) Advance + 2D6'' charge + 6'' consolidate = mean 33'' range, IF there is a unit they can charge on the way to the bridge/objective they want to reach.
b) 2 x (8'' move + (2x3D6'' pick the highest) Advance) = 40'' with metabolic overdrive (but no charge)
For you guys who have played lots of tournaments, which did you feel was worth more for it's weight in points. Shadowsword/Baneblade, or it's points in leman Russ variants, primarily Demolishers and a hammer of sunderance.
Trying to come up with a pure guard army that would play relatively quickly at events, and was considering a single shadowsword or Baneblade. However, with all the negative aura buffs out there and ways to shut down a single source of shooting, it feels like that many points in a single unit would leave you very vulnerable. Plus, you can easily take 3-4 Russe's now for the cost of a shadowsword properly kitted out and I can't help but feel that that is more flexible, durable, and has far more shooting. Yes, you can't buff the tanks as easily as the shadowsword and the tanks don't have anything for melee, but the other advantages just seem too useful to ignore.
My gut tells me to stick with the Russe's, but I've never actually used a Baneblade variant (heresy I know) so I'd appreciate any advice people familiar with them could give.
MrMoustaffa wrote: For you guys who have played lots of tournaments, which did you feel was worth more for it's weight in points. Shadowsword/Baneblade, or it's points in leman Russ variants, primarily Demolishers and a hammer of sunderance.
Trying to come up with a pure guard army that would play relatively quickly at events, and was considering a single shadowsword or Baneblade. However, with all the negative aura buffs out there and ways to shut down a single source of shooting, it feels like that many points in a single unit would leave you very vulnerable. Plus, you can easily take 3-4 Russe's now for the cost of a shadowsword properly kitted out and I can't help but feel that that is more flexible, durable, and has far more shooting. Yes, you can't buff the tanks as easily as the shadowsword and the tanks don't have anything for melee, but the other advantages just seem too useful to ignore.
My gut tells me to stick with the Russe's, but I've never actually used a Baneblade variant (heresy I know) so I'd appreciate any advice people familiar with them could give.
Stick with the Leman Russ. The baneblade will be shot off turn 1/2 at best. ITs too big to hide. You can sometimes get work done with it if you outflank with tallarn. Also, charging with it is great as well, as you can use stratagem grind em to dust. If you can somehow tripoint the unit the Baneblade is in combat with all the better. then just kill the unit in opponents fight phase so you are free to shoot next turn. Its difficult to do and the lack of invul save and massive size doesnt help.
MrMoustaffa wrote: For you guys who have played lots of tournaments, which did you feel was worth more for it's weight in points. Shadowsword/Baneblade, or it's points in leman Russ variants, primarily Demolishers and a hammer of sunderance.
Trying to come up with a pure guard army that would play relatively quickly at events, and was considering a single shadowsword or Baneblade. However, with all the negative aura buffs out there and ways to shut down a single source of shooting, it feels like that many points in a single unit would leave you very vulnerable. Plus, you can easily take 3-4 Russe's now for the cost of a shadowsword properly kitted out and I can't help but feel that that is more flexible, durable, and has far more shooting. Yes, you can't buff the tanks as easily as the shadowsword and the tanks don't have anything for melee, but the other advantages just seem too useful to ignore.
My gut tells me to stick with the Russe's, but I've never actually used a Baneblade variant (heresy I know) so I'd appreciate any advice people familiar with them could give.
My experience at tournaments(local and GT’s like Nova)is that baneblades and their variants aren’t too great. The meta was guard with knights and smash captains/custodes bikes but knights took a bit of a nerf and shortly after the meta was open a bit with a lot of eldar and choas up top. Now the meta being marines which has taken a necessary hit will change.
The above is important as once when knights were dominant they were everywhere. So most lists have enough anti tank to take of a knight which usually has a 4++. A baneblade does not have the invuln and is much easier to bring down in experience. If you don’t cripple your opponents anti tank your first turn, and that is if you go first then more than likely your super heavy is going to die. Also your super heavy unless vostroyan(strat for +1 to hit) or Cadian (overlapping) your tank is only hitting on bs4.
My opinion is so ready your firepower out amongst multiple units forcing your opponent to split fire. As now if he doesn’t kill a russ you just pop a strat for it to operate at full tier. And our other strat against vehicle for max number of shots is a huge boost.
Although rule of cool is most important and playing what you like!
MrMoustaffa wrote: For you guys who have played lots of tournaments, which did you feel was worth more for it's weight in points. Shadowsword/Baneblade, or it's points in leman Russ variants, primarily Demolishers and a hammer of sunderance.
Trying to come up with a pure guard army that would play relatively quickly at events, and was considering a single shadowsword or Baneblade. However, with all the negative aura buffs out there and ways to shut down a single source of shooting, it feels like that many points in a single unit would leave you very vulnerable. Plus, you can easily take 3-4 Russe's now for the cost of a shadowsword properly kitted out and I can't help but feel that that is more flexible, durable, and has far more shooting. Yes, you can't buff the tanks as easily as the shadowsword and the tanks don't have anything for melee, but the other advantages just seem too useful to ignore.
My gut tells me to stick with the Russe's, but I've never actually used a Baneblade variant (heresy I know) so I'd appreciate any advice people familiar with them could give.
Stick with the Leman Russ. The baneblade will be shot off turn 1/2 at best. ITs too big to hide. You can sometimes get work done with it if you outflank with tallarn. Also, charging with it is great as well, as you can use stratagem grind em to dust. If you can somehow tripoint the unit the Baneblade is in combat with all the better. then just kill the unit in opponents fight phase so you are free to shoot next turn. Its difficult to do and the lack of invul save and massive size doesnt help.
A baneblade in combat never ever wants to actually kill its foes, since being in combat prevents the baneblade from being shot, but does not actually restrict its shooting.
I run an infantry/leman russ heavy army with basilisk support, just read the new PA stuff. Any opinions on the Tank Ace? Worth taking? Im not sure id create a new regiment, cadian for infantry and catachan for Russes still seems pretty good.
Billagio wrote: I run an infantry/leman russ heavy army with basilisk support, just read the new PA stuff. Any opinions on the Tank Ace? Worth taking? Im not sure id create a new regiment, cadian for infantry and catachan for Russes still seems pretty good.
Well, full payload is a gimme for a manticore or basilisk. Id say that's usually an autotake unless you're fighting green tide or something like that. Either one, don't forget your Hunter killer missile for a flat 6 damage shot turn one. Might be the one thing on a vehicle worth spending an auger array on, a S8, ap2, flat 6 damage missile with a built in reroll is pretty solid for 11pts. If you don't end up using it for the hunter killer you just use it on a miss for the missile and it still does something.
As for tanks, that'll be heavily dependent on the opponent, since the actual skill is picked game to game. Lots of 2-3 flat damage enemy AT? Take the -1 damage. Lots of low APAT, 2+ armor save. Fighting Valorous Heart? Take additional AP on your hammer of sunderance to smash through their imagifier buff.
I know my first choice would the manticore, only burning my WLT for a second if I really needed it and didn't see grand Strategist or Old grudges paying off, and I'll be honest I can't think of a situation at the moment where that'd be true.
Also thanks to everyone for their input on the Russ vs Baneblade variant debate. I kind of had a feeling the Russe's were the right answer but wanted to give the Baneblade frames a fair shake. Gonna stick with my tried and true Russe's and Bullgryn.
Billagio wrote: I run an infantry/leman russ heavy army with basilisk support, just read the new PA stuff. Any opinions on the Tank Ace? Worth taking? Im not sure id create a new regiment, cadian for infantry and catachan for Russes still seems pretty good.
Well, full payload is a gimme for a manticore or basilisk. Id say that's usually an autotake unless you're fighting green tide or something like that. Either one, don't forget your Hunter killer missile for a flat 6 damage shot turn one. Might be the one thing on a vehicle worth spending an auger array on, a S8, ap2, flat 6 damage missile with a built in reroll is pretty solid for 11pts. If you don't end up using it for the hunter killer you just use it on a miss for the missile and it still does something.
As for tanks, that'll be heavily dependent on the opponent, since the actual skill is picked game to game. Lots of 2-3 flat damage enemy AT? Take the -1 damage. Lots of low APAT, 2+ armor save. Fighting Valorous Heart? Take additional AP on your hammer of sunderance to smash through their imagifier buff.
I know my first choice would the manticore, only burning my WLT for a second if I really needed it and didn't see grand Strategist or Old grudges paying off, and I'll be honest I can't think of a situation at the moment where that'd be true.
Also thanks to everyone for their input on the Russ vs Baneblade variant debate. I kind of had a feeling the Russe's were the right answer but wanted to give the Baneblade frames a fair shake. Gonna stick with my tried and true Russe's and Bullgryn.
Ah yeah full payload will be real helpful. Main opponent is tyranids and he loves hive guard, will be useful for wiping those out right away.
You can take the free tank ace ability, sacrifice your WLT for a second ace ability, and use the Scion strat to give a Tempestor Prime a WLT like old Grudges. That's what I've done in a few games and it's worked out pretty good
I feel like old grudges on a tempestor would be harder to use. Maybe it's because I like to drop them, but getting that 6" aura to fire is harder. I would probably take one of the MT traits instead.
Trickstick wrote: I feel like old grudges on a tempestor would be harder to use. Maybe it's because I like to drop them, but getting that 6" aura to fire is harder. I would probably take one of the MT traits instead.
I just drop him next to my artillery/LRTC. Figure losing his orders for the 1 Scion squad is worth getting Old Grudges on my big shooty things
Billagio wrote: Opinions on best LR variant for general use? Ive been partial to conquerors myself, or the executioner
Conqueror's are FW, so they have missed some of the point changes that normal Leman Russes have had. A battlecannon russ /w bolter is 137, a conqueror is 155. Not the end of the world but is the coax ability worth 18 points?
I would say it highly depends on what your army is. If we go off raw numbers, the demolisher is the most powerful gun. However, the short range means that it doesn't work in all armies. For example, a gunline Cadian army would probably be better with battlecannons or plasma, as you waste your doctrine if you have to move into range.
I'm a bit of a Tallarn demolisher lover, as I love throwing tanks into close range and blasting.
Have you considered a valkyrie as a high speed deployment for a 10 man squad of crusaders? backed by an astropath to give them +1 to saves and a minipriest to give them extra attack?
121 cheap flyer (2 multirocket, 1 mulilaser) .. (althouh I always spring for the heavy bolters and the lascannon!)
130 10 crusaders (s3/t3/pwersword 2 swings) (3++ invuln)
15 astropath (to grant a +1 save for the 3++)
35 minipriest (to grant a +1A for the 2 attack)
You can therefore drop the 301 pointblob on the bridge round 1, making a nice line of nearly unshiftable crusaders (you will probably lose a couple stepping out of the bird at high speed). 2++ invuln on the infantry, though, and a valkyrie that isn't in hover mode (thus -1 to hit even if you didn't buy the countermeasure strat, AND can't be charged by non-flyers) ...
I haven't foudn the original question but figure you need to (from context) take and hold the bridge before the termies do. If you were to come in LATER, though, you could do something similar with deepstriking 10 man iotan gorgonnes scions (70 point for 10 model) ... they can come in at short range, drop a tempest prime behind them, and order them to fire x4 shots each, pop the point blank strat, and that's an average 42 s4/-2/1 shots hitting on 3+.(cause six's give double hits) Total cost is 105 inculding a tempester, but it will clear a screen or two before it dies. Stormtroopers do slightly better, dropping from a valkyrie at the same range, but firing at +1 and increasing their firepower by 1/3.
Earlier in 8th edition we all tried to make crusaders work. The problem is there is so much anti infantry firepower it doesn't matter how good the save is, T3 infantry with only a single wound aren't worth all the effort and investment.
Billagio wrote: Opinions on best LR variant for general use? Ive been partial to conquerors myself, or the executioner
Conqueror's are FW, so they have missed some of the point changes that normal Leman Russes have had. A battlecannon russ /w bolter is 137, a conqueror is 155. Not the end of the world but is the coax ability worth 18 points?
I would say it highly depends on what your army is. If we go off raw numbers, the demolisher is the most powerful gun. However, the short range means that it doesn't work in all armies. For example, a gunline Cadian army would probably be better with battlecannons or plasma, as you waste your doctrine if you have to move into range.
I'm a bit of a Tallarn demolisher lover, as I love throwing tanks into close range and blasting.
Sure the coax storm bolter for 18 points isn’t worth it on its own but having it for the reroll hits is pretty good, no? Mainly run gun line cadian so I agree with battle cannons or plasma being the most effective choice for those lists
Billagio wrote: Opinions on best LR variant for general use? Ive been partial to conquerors myself, or the executioner
It's probably the Demolisher or the generic leman Russ, depends on regiment. I'm really partial to the Demolisher lately, that extra strength, AP, and d6 damage and at two points less is very powerful. I tend to run more aggressive guard lists (as in I actually try to move out of the deployment zone, not turn 1 charge enemy ) so the range usually isn't an issue. Either I'm moving in on the enemy or they're moving in on me.
However, whenever I rely on demolishers I'm always taking a hammer of sunderance, a full payload manticore (aka hammer of Sunderance number 2) and most likely another tank command with something like an executioner cannon, some basilisks, or even just missile launchers in my line squads to make sure I have something to reach out and touch someone.
Main plan to make demolishers work though is to take them with the spotter detail/gunnery experts traits. At that point you have a demolisher that rerolls its shot amount and has a 35" grinding advance threat range, that's enough to make it useable as your mainline tank in my opinion. Let's me take say 4 regular tanks as Demolishers and a couple tank commanders with support weapons like a hammer and Punisher. Then you take hammer of Sunderance two: manticore edition and you have a very powerful armor component to your army. I don't like tank commander demolishers because they tend to be in the thick of the fighting and I can only take 3 tanks, and I also don't have a shadowsword. For that reason if I want armor saturation I have to have regular tanks somewhere, and honestly with the discounts regular Demolishers got I think they're very solid at 135pts with those buffs.
Billagio wrote: Opinions on best LR variant for general use? Ive been partial to conquerors myself, or the executioner
It's probably the Demolisher or the generic leman Russ, depends on regiment. I'm really partial to the Demolisher lately, that extra strength, AP, and d6 damage and at two points less is very powerful. I tend to run more aggressive guard lists (as in I actually try to move out of the deployment zone, not turn 1 charge enemy ) so the range usually isn't an issue. Either I'm moving in on the enemy or they're moving in on me.
However, whenever I rely on demolishers I'm always taking a hammer of sunderance, a full payload manticore (aka hammer of Sunderance number 2) and most likely another tank command with something like an executioner cannon, some basilisks, or even just missile launchers in my line squads to make sure I have something to reach out and touch someone.
Main plan to make demolishers work though is to take them with the spotter detail/gunnery experts traits. At that point you have a demolisher that rerolls its shot amount and has a 35" grinding advance threat range, that's enough to make it useable as your mainline tank in my opinion. Let's me take say 4 regular tanks as Demolishers and a couple tank commanders with support weapons like a hammer and Punisher. Then you take hammer of Sunderance two: manticore edition and you have a very powerful armor component to your army. I don't like tank commander demolishers because they tend to be in the thick of the fighting and I can only take 3 tanks, and I also don't have a shadowsword. For that reason if I want armor saturation I have to have regular tanks somewhere, and honestly with the discounts regular Demolishers got I think they're very solid at 135pts with those buffs.
Currently I have my list as cadian infantry and basilisks with catachan LR Conqueror spearhead detachment (at 1500). Seems to be working ok, but I havent delved too much into the new PA stuff. Have not tried demolishers yet, with sunderance they do look nasty. General concensus that the stock LRBT is the best all-rounder due to the points drop over the conqs?
Demolishers in custom regiments for +6" range and shot re roll.
Amazing deal for 135 points.
I just can't give up the advantages of Tallarn tanks. The +6" looks nice, but better movement and orders is too nice.
True.
The outflank potential and the ability to move shoot move is big. Put in a Vigilus Tank Detachment.
Tallarn Tank Commander with Relic Battle Canon, lascannon, plasma sponsons, Tank Ace +1 AP Tank Commander Demolisher, lascannon, Plasma Sponsons, use unyielding advance for another 5" movement, So you can move at full, scoot, use tallarn tank order and really extend the threat range of this bad boy. Maybe make him tank Ace for slow and purposeful.
Spend CPC to double shoot the demolisher and use the new Hail of Fire stratagem for maximum shots.
You do have to watch out for hail of fire with plasma though. You are increasing your chance of overheats. Not that I wouldn't do it, but maybe use gunners kill on sight the round you plan on using it, to help mitigate the danger.
Trickstick wrote: You do have to watch out for hail of fire with plasma though. You are increasing your chance of overheats. Not that I wouldn't do it, but maybe use gunners kill on sight the round you plan on using it, to help mitigate the danger.
Regarding the MoO I think Tallarn is the only way to make him work. I run him with Manticores over basilisks for two reasons 1) Vigalus artillery detachment costs too much CP and 2) I'm already taking an Iotan Dragons detachment to make my scions useful (to get the regimental bonuses you can't have any non scion units such as basis or tank commanders) as well as a knight detachment so if I want to make my third detachment the Vigaluss Tank one (for the hammer of sunderance and to give my Demolisher tank commander a threat range of 40 +d6" threat range firing twice) I simply can't take the artillery detachment. I think the improvement to the manticore from PA means the artillery detachment is no longer an auto take.
In order to remain outside of 36" you need the Tallarns rule for firing heavy weapons. I find my self moving my two Manticores constantly to get the reroll 1s. I am tempted to go back to yarrick as he'll allow reroll of 1s at any range (and also in overwatch) also he'll give my hammer of sunderance, who hangs back with the artillery the ability to reroll 1s and pop smoke/shimmey back into cover. If I made Yarrick my warlord he'd be better able to survive all the eliminator/snipers in the Meta. I'd also have the ability to give him voice of command meaning he could give orders to both my tallarn infantry and my scions. I've never come up against orks in a tournament (although I do run them myself). Yarricks reroll all failed hits against orks would be a huge boon in a tournament setting.
If I take scions in my tallarn detachment can I make them Iotan Dragons. I know they won't get the added 6" range but it would mean my tempestus scions could order them.
I do feel like Yarrick is worth looking at, but man is he expensive. That said, he provides ld9, commissar reroll if needed, reroll 1's for all hit rolls, has a stormbolter hitting on 2's and a powerfist hitting on 3's, and even works for the pysker anti peril explosion ability. I'm looking at using him for custom regiments to help make up for the lack of reroll to hit abilities and make regular Russ demolishers/manticore more accurate, but his ability to help with hit rolls in melee helps too. I guess he even counts as a master of ordnance with the bonus that his works even if the enemy is in pistol range of his tanks.
Also who knows, orks could become really good with PA. If so, his viability goes up quite a bit. I don't really think he's as important for armies with natural hit rerolls like Cadian or Catachan though, but if you're playing an army that has to rely on orders for accuracy buffs he's a big force multiplier. Key is to make him have as much impact as the 100pts missing from your force could've done devoted to a tank like a Demolisher or a basilisk.
I only realised the master of ordinance could be ordered today and I’ve been playing them for a year. I’ve never considered it before but does forwards for the emperor negate the traditional inability to move and shoot the MOO. RAW it seems it does.
If and when orks are more in the meta yarrick may become an option.
CaptainO wrote: I only realised the master of ordinance could be ordered today and I’ve been playing them for a year. I’ve never considered it before but does forwards for the emperor negate the traditional inability to move and shoot the MOO. RAW it seems it does.
If and when orks are more in the meta yarrick may become an option.
Forwards for the Emperor only lets you fire if you advance. The Master of Ordnance has a rule that they can't fire after moving, nothing to do with advancing.
What are everyone's thoughts on these custom regiments? Are they worth giving up the regimental orders and stratagems for?
For example, say for an infantry regiment with +6" range and cover when not advancing, when compared to taking a Vostroyan regiment, is the bonus cover worth losing giving one squad +1 to hit? Or what about compared to Cadians and their +1 vs a target for everyone after dealing a wound to said target?
Arcanis161 wrote: What are everyone's thoughts on these custom regiments? Are they worth giving up the regimental orders and stratagems for?
For example, say for an infantry regiment with +6" range and cover when not advancing, when compared to taking a Vostroyan regiment, is the bonus cover worth losing giving one squad +1 to hit? Or what about compared to Cadians and their +1 vs a target for everyone after dealing a wound to said target?
I think the trick is you have to ruthlessly optimize it and go big or go home. Trying to make a balanced regiment with one infantry and one tank trait isn't doing much. You want to stack 2 infantry in one detachment and 2 tank in another. From there, you're banking on your base units being so good that you don't notice the missing straken/overlapping fields of fire/regimental pride/etc. Then you need to really make the most of non regimental buffs like the Vigilus detachments and PA abilities.
I do feel like infantry guard with 18" rapid fire/cover at all times is very powerful backed up by reroll shot type/+6" range tanks. That's strong enough to ensure your guardsmen put in work and you can even make a regular demolisher at 135pts a force to reckoned with.
Problem is I've not had a game using them yet. I feel the answer is yes, these abilities can stand toe to toe with Catachan or Cadians, but you really need to build your army with it in mind. With how quickly cp gets burned these days, I feel like the ability to have your units stand on their own with minimal strats is worth it. Especially with stuff like hydras wail out there. It also allows you to focus less on strats and more on units, which means less reliance on stuff like tank commanders and more ability to just take regular tanks or units.
Perma-cover is a really good ability, tactically speaking. You are suddenly free to completely disregard seeking cover with the majority of your force. Seeing as how difficult it can be to stick to cover if you have a decent amount of infantry, it opens up a lot of options.
CaptainO wrote: I only realised the master of ordinance could be ordered today and I’ve been playing them for a year. I’ve never considered it before but does forwards for the emperor negate the traditional inability to move and shoot the MOO. RAW it seems it does.
If and when orks are more in the meta yarrick may become an option.
Forwards for the Emperor only lets you fire if you advance. The Master of Ordnance has a rule that they can't fire after moving, nothing to do with advancing.
You're right on both accounts but surely if the MOO advances and is then issued "Forward for the Emperor" (unit can fire even if it advanced) then he can fire. Normal infantry cannot fire rapid fire or heavy weapons if they advance, this order supersedes that. It would be worth moving in LoS for the +1 to hit he receives for having eyes on the target. The MoOs BS3+ with Heavy 6 S8 AP-2 d3 shots for 1CP isn't too bad a combo. Easily sniped so the ordered ability to move and shoot would allow him to remain safe.
If a MoO advances, then there are two rules restricing shooting: the weapon rule and the advance rule. FFTE only removes one of these, the advancing one. It doesn't remove the basic restriction that the MoO has.
Plus you can only use it once per game, so you don't really need to move and shoot anyway.
FFTE doesn't specify that it removes any rule. It simply states that a model may shoot even if it advanced. A heavy weapon would not be able to shoot if the unit advanced, but it can with this order. The order does not specify which weapons are effected or not only "The ordered unit can shoot this turn even if it advanced in its movement phase"
At 2000 Points: How should I run infantry with the tanks I own? I was going to have small infantry blob and mortar group on foot. I have 70 unbuilt infantry and 6 unbuilt heavy weapon teams
1x Vanquisher LR (Count as relic battle cannon Sunderance)
1x Executioner (Side Plasma) LR 3x Leman Russ Main Battle Tank (Side Heavy Bolters)
2x Demolisher Siege Tanks (Side Multi-Meltas, HF Front)
1x Hell Hound
1x Manticore
At 2000 Points: How should I run infantry with the tanks I own? I was going to have small infantry blob and mortar group on foot. I have 70 unbuilt infantry and 6 unbuilt heavy weapon teams
1x Vanquisher LR (Count as relic battle cannon Sunderance)
1x Executioner (Side Plasma) LR 3x Leman Russ Main Battle Tank (Side Heavy Bolters)
2x Demolisher Siege Tanks (Side Multi-Meltas, HF Front)
1x Hell Hound
1x Manticore
Most people ATM are running their infantry bare.
I would personally say that you can throw in Plasmas of you have them or want to use them. Gives your infantry threat versus MEQ. Can't see the point in any other special weapon IMHO.
The vox is a bit of a trap; you're spending at minimum 10 points to have someone order a unit further away. Just practice your positioning with your Company and Platoon Commanders.
Mortars are still good for your heavy weapons squads. Run them as Cadian with a Company Commander near them. Give a squad the strat for the bonus to hit, have the Company Commander order them to Take Aim, and you'll do work against GEQ enemies.
I would, just to take advantage of the bs 3+. You have to make the turns you can use it count. Plus, its like 20 points for plasma. Combine that with the max shot stratagem and you have a lot of shots. Would definitely use the reroll 1s order though.
At 2000 Points: How should I run infantry with the tanks I own? I was going to have small infantry blob and mortar group on foot. I have 70 unbuilt infantry and 6 unbuilt heavy weapon teams
1x Vanquisher LR (Count as relic battle cannon Sunderance)
1x Executioner (Side Plasma) LR 3x Leman Russ Main Battle Tank (Side Heavy Bolters)
2x Demolisher Siege Tanks (Side Multi-Meltas, HF Front)
1x Hell Hound
1x Manticore
That's a good core of vehicles, especially with the new tank Ace for manticores.
For infantry, most people run them bare, and that's a solid way to do it. Cheap screen, anti horde with FRFSRF, and MMM to claim objectives. I am seriously considering missile launchers for line infantry however. One point more than a mortar, 3 more than plasma. But, you're getting a 48" range weapon that can threaten tanks or infantry, and you only need a couple lucky hits to mess something up. Really nice for when you go first on hammer and anvil and have to shoot into the opponent's deployment or in general need to drop a big unit like a knight asap. They're best with Cadia but I could see them working for many regiments. I need to do some test games of course, but gut feeling is that they're a good way to make a 100 guardsmen screen do more than just screen, at the cost of a couple squads or something like a basilisk. The other standby would be a Bolter and plasma gun, especially with the new 18" rapid fire custom regiment ability. The issue I have with plasma is they're very swingy and often only able to be fired once or twice before the bearer dies. That said, if you get even one solid hit you're usually killing something the same cost as the bearer or even more expensive than he is, so they're not bad.
For the tanks, I've taken a liking to hull lascannons on commanders. It's a 7pt upgrade for a weapon that actually does something. From there it really depends on regiment for the sponsons. Really I only like them as plasma on an executioner or heavy bolters for a punisher, both only for TC's or just Tallarn in general. They suffer movement penalties which means that those points are usually better spent elsewhere. To give you an idea, 7 tanks with plasma sponsons gets an entire demolisher and most of the way to a hull lascannon. Sponsons add up fast and don't really add that much firepower for most armies so just keep that in mind. They can be good, just consider what you're getting and if those points are better spent elsewhere
Ok, so I’ve got a 2000 pt game vs space marines where I’ve told my opponent I will be bringing nothing but infantry. Apart from spamming an ungodly number of troops, anyone got anything spicy I can do? They’ll be playing imperium with mostly mixed space marine chapters, maybe a knight
C4790M wrote: Ok, so I’ve got a 2000 pt game vs space marines where I’ve told my opponent I will be bringing nothing but infantry. Apart from spamming an ungodly number of troops, anyone got anything spicy I can do? They’ll be playing imperium with mostly mixed space marine chapters, maybe a knight
Only infantry? I'm not sure why you agreed to that. Tanks and Artillery are one of our major strengths.
If that's the case, I'd say bring as many Plasmas as you can. Definitely bring a large amount of Lascannons and/or Rocket Launchers as you can (Rocket Launchers are lower strength but cheaper, so you might be able to squeeze more of them in.)
Definitely get some Scions as well, bring them as Iotan Dragons for more Hot Shot Las shots. Again, as many Plasmas as possible.
You're in for a very, very tough fight. I'd expect to lose at least 5 infantry squads per turn.
C4790M wrote: Ok, so I’ve got a 2000 pt game vs space marines where I’ve told my opponent I will be bringing nothing but infantry. Apart from spamming an ungodly number of troops, anyone got anything spicy I can do? They’ll be playing imperium with mostly mixed space marine chapters, maybe a knight
You could do stuff like take an Emperor's Conclave with Catachans, or a full Bullgryn squad to give yourself some meat. If they think you are bringing all infantry, Bullgryns may be a surprise as they are a lot tougher.
Arcanis161 wrote: What are everyone's thoughts on these custom regiments? Are they worth giving up the regimental orders and stratagems for?
I do feel like infantry guard with 18" rapid fire/cover at all times is very powerful backed up by reroll shot type/+6" range tanks. That's strong enough to ensure your guardsmen put in work and you can even make a regular demolisher at 135pts a force to reckoned with.
Agreed, these are the exact 2 pairings I was thinking as well. And then a 3rd regiment of Tallarn i think.
Has anyone deployed a tallarn superheavy with ambush? Im trying to envisage it with 2 shadowswords (I'd have to use the strategem twice). I presume its the only way to protect them from alpha strike, as you cant simply reserve any chosen unit in 8th, right? I love the guard super heavies but im trying to figure out how to make them last.
Also, anyone used tank ace on a superheavy? The three options seem pretty underwhelming.
ArikTaranis wrote: Has anyone deployed a tallarn superheavy with ambush? Im trying to envisage it with 2 shadowswords (I'd have to use the strategem twice). I presume its the only way to protect them from alpha strike, as you cant simply reserve any chosen unit in 8th, right? I love the guard super heavies but im trying to figure out how to make them last.
Also, anyone used tank ace on a superheavy? The three options seem pretty underwhelming.
To be honest its probably the only way to run your superheavies in the current climate. Its too easy for the enemy to delete a super heavy T1 so keeping them in reserve with ambush is a good idea. However, I think you are best just doing the 1 super heavy. Doing it with 2 is a lot of command points and also means that a lot of your army is off the board which is gonn amke it hard to get first blood/strike.
Oh what a surprise ! MordianGlory, glad to see you here. A forum like this one is a better place to engage discussions, rather than a youtube comment section, irrespective of the quality of a channel.
C4790M wrote: Ok, so I’ve got a 2000 pt game vs space marines where I’ve told my opponent I will be bringing nothing but infantry. Apart from spamming an ungodly number of troops, anyone got anything spicy I can do? They’ll be playing imperium with mostly mixed space marine chapters, maybe a knight
Only infantry? I'm not sure why you agreed to that. Tanks and Artillery are one of our major strengths.
If that's the case, I'd say bring as many Plasmas as you can. Definitely bring a large amount of Lascannons and/or Rocket Launchers as you can (Rocket Launchers are lower strength but cheaper, so you might be able to squeeze more of them in.)
Definitely get some Scions as well, bring them as Iotan Dragons for more Hot Shot Las shots. Again, as many Plasmas as possible.
You're in for a very, very tough fight. I'd expect to lose at least 5 infantry squads per turn.
Relating to this specific situation, I was wondering if anyone had feedback on this list. I have all the models, in the process of painting now:
(the following list is comprised of three battalions, and is posted as one block for convenience)
(18 rapid fire doctrine, counts as in cover doctrine, lambdan lions +1AP doctrine)
Why the master of ordnance? I'd definitely take as many psykers as possible with that list. Astropaths deny cover. Probably use Psychic barrier + Nightshroud on a blobbed infantry squad.
It may help to know more about your thought process on how to use all these components in a game so we can provide better feedback.
I see a few things I'd be concerned about in this list here are a few for starters:
I'd probably scrap the missile launchers in the infantry squads simply because they'll still probably move around. If you want them to build your castle, I'd put lascannons in them and ditch lascannon heavy weapon squads. Those things will simply be the first units targeted by your opponent's AT weapons. Change them to mortars and hide them.
Are you planning on deep striking all of your Scions? I'm not sure you realize how much space all of these bodies will take up.
Assassin's are still worth it IMHO. We are one of the few factions without a "META detachment" bonus, so we don't lose anything by taking them, and they definitely fill roles that we lack in our vanilla army
Are plasma guns worth it in infantry squads? My current standard gun line list has 10, which would mean 70 points freed up if I dropped them...not sure where else I’d put them.
Heres the list, any general C&C is appreciated as well!
Plasma is great, though risky to overheat due to the -1 to hit (explodes on natural 2's, can't re-roll them with the order). But generally worth the risk as it's only mortal wounds
Awesome! Dropped the plasma guns and gave 2 Tank Commanders plasma sponsons. Also had enough points to drop a regular LRBT and add a Tank Commander (barebones)
Billagio wrote: Are plasma guns worth it in infantry squads? My current standard gun line list has 10, which would mean 70 points freed up if I dropped them...not sure where else I’d put them.
Heres the list, any general C&C is appreciated as well!
It's tough. I used to be a firm believer in special weapons for my squads but the more I play the more I tend to just stay barebones. My main offensive order is FRFSRF anyways so the plasma rarely helps. It's great for finishing off things or plinking a marine but at competitive play you're far past that making a difference. Better to let the tanks and artillery handle the hard targets and sending the points there.
If infantry warrant any upgrades, I find myself looking at stuff like lascannons or missile launchers. It's a tough choice that I need to test though. I have the models to easily field 15 of any heavy weapon I wish, it's just a question of is it worth it. If you get first turn, especially as Cadian, that's a lot of extra firepower the guardsmen can contribute pt for PT. 10 lascannons is 150pts for example, 10 ML 100. The closest equivalent pt for PT firepower wise would be a leman Russ variant, which is either the Russ with d3 damage, or the Demolisher with half the range, and both of which have random shots so may not even compete on a shot per shot basis.
This is mainly only because I see so many big and scary things in my area that guardsmen were only good for screening and objectives. That said, those are very valuable roles and heavy weapons tempt you stay still and distract you from their main job. The flipside is that the armies scared of those weapons will have difficulty shutting down all the heavy weapons spread across your men, and it makes them focus squads more. Once the virus shenanigans is over I will try it for my metal Cadians. I have a ton of weapons laying around and may as well use them. Even if you only used them turn one with the relic of Cadia they could do some serious damage, especially vs chaos. Math seems to check out, just need to try it.
My Plasmas always end up exploding in my squads. I've killed more of my own guys than enemies with the Plasmas. I joke that they come from the shady Forgeworld of "Bee Jang".
I need to finish more models so I can bring basic lasgun squads.
ArikTaranis wrote: Has anyone deployed a tallarn superheavy with ambush? Im trying to envisage it with 2 shadowswords (I'd have to use the strategem twice). I presume its the only way to protect them from alpha strike, as you cant simply reserve any chosen unit in 8th, right? I love the guard super heavies but im trying to figure out how to make them last.
Also, anyone used tank ace on a superheavy? The three options seem pretty underwhelming.
Can you use the Tallarn stratagem twice? That's cool, if so. Never occurred to me.
ArikTaranis wrote: Has anyone deployed a tallarn superheavy with ambush? Im trying to envisage it with 2 shadowswords (I'd have to use the strategem twice). I presume its the only way to protect them from alpha strike, as you cant simply reserve any chosen unit in 8th, right? I love the guard super heavies but im trying to figure out how to make them last.
Also, anyone used tank ace on a superheavy? The three options seem pretty underwhelming.
Can you use the Tallarn stratagem twice? That's cool, if so. Never occurred to me.
You can indeed, use it as many times as you can afford, as its a pre-deployment stratagem that does not take place in a 'phase'.
Though you'd also have to be wary of the Tactical reserves rule, probably; so you might be hard pressed to get 2 SuperHeavies in Ambush, unless they were not more than half your force.
Razerous wrote: Hi Folks, can I check has anything (besides points) changed much for Astra Militarum since the newest rules have been released?
Can you run multiple detachments and have a battleforged (shares a keyword - Imperium, right?) army from multiple sources?
Thanks
Psychic Awakening: The Greater Good has rules for Custom Regiments, Scion Regiments and Tank Aces.
You can run multiple detachments and bind the army with IMPERIUM, you can't bind a detachment itself with IMPERIUM.
Legal Army: A Detachment of ADEPTUS ASTARTES (which itself contains ULTRAMARINES and SPACE WOLVES), a Detachment of CADIANS, a Detachment of CATACHANS.
Not a legal Army: A Detachment containing 2 CADIAN Company Commanders and 3 ULTRAMARINES Tactical Squads.
Razerous wrote: Hi Folks, can I check has anything (besides points) changed much for Astra Militarum since the newest rules have been released?
Can you run multiple detachments and have a battleforged (shares a keyword - Imperium, right?) army from multiple sources?
Thanks
Psychic Awakening: The Greater Good has rules for Custom Regiments, Scion Regiments and Tank Aces.
You can run multiple detachments and bind the army with IMPERIUM, you can't bind a detachment itself with IMPERIUM.
Legal Army: A Detachment of ADEPTUS ASTARTES (which itself contains ULTRAMARINES and SPACE WOLVES), a Detachment of CADIANS, a Detachment of CATACHANS.
Not a legal Army: A Detachment containing 2 CADIAN Company Commanders and 3 ULTRAMARINES Tactical Squads.
Sweet TY
Just getting back into it... Sooo many books but I'm glad to see, refinements on the glory that is 8th edition
Since Chapter Approved 2019, the price of the two most powerful heavy weapons of the Imperial Guard have been nicely lowered by 5 points.
Have you tested the missile launcher, or laser cannon in your line infantry squads ?
I lack recent play time due to taking my "duty" in the club painting some ruins elements, then the quarantine.
Previously I have fielded a few infantry squads with laser cannons (then @ 20 points), with mixed results to be fair... Now I'm planning to build 3 missile launcher teams, as I have the figurines since a looooong time.
Is it a false hope ?
Is the bare bones line squad the only competitive configuration ?
I feel like a missile launcher is an ok investment in an infantry squad. It kind of depends what role you want your infantry to play. If you have them camping in the back lines on an objective then it's not too bad a cost for some pot shots. But if you're using infantry to run to objectives you might find it might not be terribly productive. Maybe also abstain if they're screening and you know they'll get mowed down first turn.
What else is in your list? Also, the valhallan missile teams look awesome.
So I've finally collected enough minis to run a Brigade of Tanith 1st and Only. Now I'm trying to figure out how to run them. So far I'm thinking a custom Regiment with Woodland Survivors and Disciplined Shooters to represent their camo cloaks and rifle prowess. That or Tallarn to get some cool sneaky vibes coming in on the flanks.
Anyone ran anything similar or have any thoughts? I'm not super competitive, I just want the army to feel right.
Any thoughts on the Doomhammer as a super-heavy option? I keep thinking it might be decent - not very competitive, but might get good enough work done.
Are there liabilities I’m overlooking vs other options?
Ok
Devil Dogs. Asaault Melta with 24'' range on fast t7 chasis. It does not need Tallarn to move and shoot, can be taken with gunnery experts or Catachan to almost guarantee 2 shots. It occupies same role as Sentinel with Lascannons/Missle launcher.
Honestly I usually run 3 hellhounds (conversions from chimera) but thinking about buying some original kits from GW.
It is basically 1-3 multimelta shots at BS4+. It wants to get within 12" to use melta rule, but it doesn't have scary overwatch like the Hellhound and it doesn't explode on a 4+.
These are an easy pass for me, if you're trying to be competitive.
Gnollu wrote: Ok
Devil Dogs. Asaault Melta with 24'' range on fast t7 chasis. It does not need Tallarn to move and shoot, can be taken with gunnery experts or Catachan to almost guarantee 2 shots. It occupies same role as Sentinel with Lascannons/Missle launcher.
Honestly I usually run 3 hellhounds (conversions from chimera) but thinking about buying some original kits from GW.
Anybody tried running DDs?
Run a Demolisher for like 30 pts more and you'll see why no one runs a devil dog.
Demolisher averages over 3 times the shots of a devil dog, is 2 strength higher, and is on a far tougher frame. It's trade off is slower (although if you're cool with only d6 shots, only 2" slower, which is still about double the devil dog) and 1 less AP. The melta roll 2d6 pick the highest is easily outdone by the weight of fire the demolisher has and the ability to wound even T9 on 3's (chaos knights/buildings) and t5 infantry on 2's.
Hellhounds specifically are pretty good. I'm tempted to run the FW variant with d6 shots that deal 2 damage apiece, but have had good luck with the regular variant. I just fight so many marines I get little value out of the single damage shots the regular Hellhounds puts out. Plus one of the biggest advantages of a Hellhound is the 4+ explode, and the FW variant puts out d6 wounds which can be devestating. The devil dog just explodes on a 6+ so it offers nothing special sadly. You want a fast melta platform, run armiger warglaives, they're faster, have longer melta range, an invuln, and can fight in melee for about 40pts more. Hate giving that kind of advice but that's the truth
Yeah, the realy tragedy is that the devil dog isn't all that much better against vehicles than the hellhound. Even against it's premium target, T7, 3+, no invulnerable, the Dog does like twice the wounds. which sounds great, until your realize it then struggles against any other target.
Anyone have advice for what our best objective takers are? Was wondering about salamander scout tanks potentially, for speed and resilience. Or is the best bet to just throw guardsmen forward?
Also, is it essential to have a few scout sentinels/salamander tanks/ratlings/Rein & Raus to deny deepstrikers? Or is screening enough.
Just trying to figure out the balance of killyness and board control atm.
ArikTaranis wrote: Anyone have advice for what our best objective takers are? Was wondering about salamander scout tanks potentially, for speed and resilience. Or is the best bet to just throw guardsmen forward?
Also, is it essential to have a few scout sentinels/salamander tanks/ratlings/Rein & Raus to deny deepstrikers? Or is screening enough.
Just trying to figure out the balance of killyness and board control atm.
Guardsmen, they're very versatile. They'll have objective secured, move move move, are cheap, and overall only downside they have is durability, and even there if you look at them point for point they're pretty good.
For screening? Guardsmen. You should be aggressive with the front tank of guardsmen to push back deepstrike. Theoretically our scout type units are even better but with all the stuff that just deploys in the center in deployment, you'll often find our scout units never even leave our deployment zone. If our stuff could do it's scout move in deployment maybe, but as is not worth it.
right now infantry are the best holders but depending on how they reword things for ninth particularly in relation to points and blast weapons that could completely change.
takers is somewhat of a different question because infantry are not good at clearance - bullgryn or artillery/tanks are better at that
I would be pretty surprised if IG avoided the blast/horde thing because of having mass 10 man squads. Either 10 mans will be affected, or larger squads are coming. I like the idea of 30 man squads with a junior officer backing them up. Would simplify order numbers greatly.
Trickstick wrote: I would be pretty surprised if IG avoided the blast/horde thing because of having mass 10 man squads. Either 10 mans will be affected, or larger squads are coming. I like the idea of 30 man squads with a junior officer backing them up. Would simplify order numbers greatly.
So does this magical stratagem called "Consolidate Squads".
I don't see 10 being 'horde' sized. 15 or higher would be right for a start.
MordianGlory, glad to see you here. A forum like this one is a better place to engage discussions, rather than a youtube comment section, irrespective of the quality of a channel.
