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Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 11:36:22


Post by: Biophysical


 Leth wrote:
Where are people getting this competing slot idea from? We literally have a dedicated elite detachment. Slot restriction is no longer a problem. I am personally looking at sniper cmd squads.


Very much this. Guard/AM also have so many cheap troop options that They can still take the Elites detachment and still have plenty of Command Points.


A really interesting side effect of detachments is that you really only take Troops if you want to. Our Troops are so competitively priced (and nicely buffable) that one actually wants to take them. I'm seriously thinking 40 point infantry squads are a thing I want to run.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 13:10:55


Post by: Therion


Edited for speaking the truth.






Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 13:27:34


Post by: Leth


 Therion wrote:
We have the best troops unit in the entire game, the Tempestus Scions. We also have access to the best elites slot assault unit in the game, the best dedicated transport in the game, and very, very points efficient heavy weaponry from the heavy support (HWT with mortar 9 points total). Our HQ has more synergy with units than almost any other army (Only Tyranids really complete) making them very worthwhile. Our guys are the second most resistant to morale in the entire game (Tyranids again the only army more resistant to morale). Our Fast Attack isn't top tier, but it's far from garbage. Both Hellhounds and Scout Sentinels are decent enough to be used every now and then. We have by far the largest amount of competitive options available to us than anyone else, giving us flexibility.

Yeah, I think we have it pretty good. In fact, the only way from here is down. Astra Militarum is the best army in the game today. It was a long break between the 'Leafblower' days and now, but the humans got to the top again.



From what I hear Orks and Tyranids are at the top. Luckily the imperial guard have the best counters to them.....lots and lots of bullets!!! I really want to caution people to be careful with the all in on scions. That is the 7th edition mindset taking over.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 13:38:17


Post by: Therion


Edited for speaking the truth.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 13:45:02


Post by: Leth


 Therion wrote:
 Leth wrote:
 Therion wrote:
We have the best troops unit in the entire game, the Tempestus Scions. We also have access to the best elites slot assault unit in the game, the best dedicated transport in the game, and very, very points efficient heavy weaponry from the heavy support (HWT with mortar 9 points total). Our HQ has more synergy with units than almost any other army (Only Tyranids really complete) making them very worthwhile. Our guys are the second most resistant to morale in the entire game (Tyranids again the only army more resistant to morale). Our Fast Attack isn't top tier, but it's far from garbage. Both Hellhounds and Scout Sentinels are decent enough to be used every now and then. We have by far the largest amount of competitive options available to us than anyone else, giving us flexibility.

Yeah, I think we have it pretty good. In fact, the only way from here is down. Astra Militarum is the best army in the game today. It was a long break between the 'Leafblower' days and now, but the humans got to the top again.



From what I hear Orks and Tyranids are at the top. Luckily the imperial guard have the best counters to them.....lots and lots of bullets!!! I really want to caution people to be careful with the all in on scions. That is the 7th edition mindset taking over.



Yeah, they're right behind us, because we have all the tools anyone would ever need to beat them. I'm very confident I can utterly annihilate those armies with my list that's been posted in this thread. My list isn't all in on the Scions. I'll be beating them in assault too. On average rolls, my alpha strike, shooting, fighting and morale combined, wastes over 150 Orks in one turn. "Yeah, that just happened."



I am confused as to what situation would have all of that happen in the same turn? Does your opponent just sit there? That might be the most you could wipe in a turn true but it is not likely to get even close to that. Following that math a mob of 30 orks will wipe out 20 guardsman a turn. Also you know that tyranids and orks have pretty reliable first turn charges right?

I am not saying it is a bad list at all, I guess I am just trying to temper your expectations. Get a few games in before making declarations. I am still wrapping my head around how differently things play now.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 13:51:35


Post by: Therion


Edited for speaking the truth.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 14:00:02


Post by: Leth


Spoiler:
 Therion wrote:
 Leth wrote:
 Therion wrote:
 Leth wrote:
 Therion wrote:
We have the best troops unit in the entire game, the Tempestus Scions. We also have access to the best elites slot assault unit in the game, the best dedicated transport in the game, and very, very points efficient heavy weaponry from the heavy support (HWT with mortar 9 points total). Our HQ has more synergy with units than almost any other army (Only Tyranids really complete) making them very worthwhile. Our guys are the second most resistant to morale in the entire game (Tyranids again the only army more resistant to morale). Our Fast Attack isn't top tier, but it's far from garbage. Both Hellhounds and Scout Sentinels are decent enough to be used every now and then. We have by far the largest amount of competitive options available to us than anyone else, giving us flexibility.

Yeah, I think we have it pretty good. In fact, the only way from here is down. Astra Militarum is the best army in the game today. It was a long break between the 'Leafblower' days and now, but the humans got to the top again.



From what I hear Orks and Tyranids are at the top. Luckily the imperial guard have the best counters to them.....lots and lots of bullets!!! I really want to caution people to be careful with the all in on scions. That is the 7th edition mindset taking over.



Yeah, they're right behind us, because we have all the tools anyone would ever need to beat them. I'm very confident I can utterly annihilate those armies with my list that's been posted in this thread. My list isn't all in on the Scions. I'll be beating them in assault too. On average rolls, my alpha strike, shooting, fighting and morale combined, wastes over 150 Orks in one turn. "Yeah, that just happened."



I am confused as to what situation would have all of that happen in the same turn? Does your opponent just sit there? That might be the most you could wipe in a turn true but it is not likely to get even close to that. Following that math a mob of 30 orks will wipe out 20 guardsman a turn. Also you know that tyranids and orks have pretty reliable first turn charges right?



I'm confused as to what you think a footslogging Ork army's options are (that's what we're discussing). He'll deploy on the table and run towards anything I deploy on the table. His shooting is pathetic, because his army is built for points efficiency in wounds and close combat.

You kill 19 Orks from every mob of 30, and the rest explode to morale immediately. Taurox Primes shoot 180 times, hitting on 3+, and you can get re-rolls to that. Eversor Assassins have 12 attacks each, hitting on 2+, re-rolling wounds. 60 Scions shoot a ridiculous amount of shots. Mortar teams pound them at a great cost efficiency.

Yeah I know what they have. Tyranids have one reliable first turn charge, which you can counter with deployment. It's pretty standard anti-deepstrike tactics which I think I don't need to explain to you. Let them charge something you want destroyed.

If you can wipe their whole army out in one turn in an optimal situation, that should explain to you how you can probably win a 7 turn battle. If it doesn't, then we have nothing further to talk about. Why people 'think Tyranids and Orks are at the top' is because the same people are building completely inefficient Astra Militarum lists. There's nothing to 'discuss' or 'debate' what the best units in the game are. We have them. If you can't win with them due to consistently getting outplayed by your opponents, well, hey, that's on you, not me.

I'll demonstrate this by winning the first GT I attend in 8th edition once my army is complete. Due to summer vacations and painting, it should be around September. All the casuals who come with fun armies will get tabled on turn one if I seize initiative.



That tells me you have not read the ork rules as they dont explode to morale. They typically lose at most 1-3 guys. But alright if you think it will be that easy I look forward to seeing you at the top GT tables with your list that relies on going first and them totally not killing anything and just running straight into your guns. I never said it was a bad list, you seem to be taking it personally. I was just providing caution on saying how "completely optimized and impossible to beat" it is. Honestly, a well constructed tau list really doesnt seem to have much to fear. It out ranges you and your plasma deep strike is easily countered.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 14:02:29


Post by: Therion


Edited for speaking the truth.




Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 14:04:47


Post by: Leth


 Therion wrote:

Did you really just write that? Completely and utterly embarassing for you.

19 deaths in one turn + average roll of 3.5 = 22.5. The unit has 11 guys remaining, so their Mob Rule LD is 11. 22.5-11=11.5. 11.5 more die. The unit is dead.

No further questions?



Not at all, because if you knew how to read you would see that the warboss limits them to D3 casualties. Or do aura and bubble effects only work for you/magically being able to protect your characters also only work for you?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 14:06:30


Post by: Therion


Edited for speaking the truth.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 14:08:14


Post by: Leth


 Therion wrote:
 Leth wrote:
 Therion wrote:

Did you really just write that? Completely and utterly embarassing for you.

19 deaths in one turn + average roll of 3.5 = 22.5. The unit has 11 guys remaining, so their Mob Rule LD is 11. 22.5-11=11.5. 11.5 more die. The unit is dead.

No further questions?



Not at all, because if you knew how to read you would see that the warboss limits them to D3 casualties. Or do aura and bubble effects only work for you/magically being able to protect your characters also only work for you?


I have no aura or bubble effects that I magically apply to 2000 points of Imperial Guard. In fact, all of my calculations that I've presented in this thread have been without orders or synergy buffs of any kind.



MMMhhhmmm and so you are going to ignore the fact that I corrected you after you insulted me? Yeah, keep riding your high horse buddy. I just tried to engage in conversation and you started insulting and being condescending. Get your final point in, I wont see it.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 14:09:16


Post by: Therion


Edited for speaking the truth.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 14:11:54


Post by: Ragnar Blackmane


 Leth wrote:
 Therion wrote:

Did you really just write that? Completely and utterly embarassing for you.

19 deaths in one turn + average roll of 3.5 = 22.5. The unit has 11 guys remaining, so their Mob Rule LD is 11. 22.5-11=11.5. 11.5 more die. The unit is dead.

No further questions?



Not at all, because if you knew how to read you would see that the warboss limits them to D3 casualties. Or do aura and bubble effects only work for you/magically being able to protect your characters also only work for you?


Not to mention that he would have to wipe out a massive amount of Orcs to even get past the built in Mob Rule morale protection (and that's before all the additional morale protection that comes from Warbosses as you have mentioned). You can reduce an entire Orc mob from 30 to two models and as long as there is still another mob of 30 boyz, or even two 15 model mobs, within 6" of them then they won't even run away. And the fact that Orcs will be rolling with Custom Force fields, can field plenty of faster disruption units, have plenty of other tools to disrupt lines or even teleport a full mob right in your face.

Not to mention that a cheap chaff line of Grots could easily keep all those deep-striking Scions stranded away from the main bulk of the horde.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 14:16:22


Post by: xmbk


Lol, anyone going into a tournament thinking nids will only get one first turn charge is likely a store bully - in a small store.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 14:17:00


Post by: Leth


 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:


Not to mention that he would have to wipe out a massive amount of Orcs to even get past the built in Mob Rule morale protection (and that's before all the additional morale protection that comes from Warbosses as you have mentioned). You can reduce an entire Orc mob from 30 to two models and as long as there is still another mob of 30 boyz, or even two 15 model mobs, within 6" of them then they won't even run away. And the fact that Orcs will be rolling with Custom Force fields, can field plenty of faster disruption units, have plenty of other tools to disrupt lines or even teleport a full mob right in your face.

Not to mention that a cheap chaff line of Grots could easily keep all those deep-striking Scions stranded away from the main bulk of the horde.



Exactly, thank you very much for backing up my point. Also completely ignoring the teleporting units, the charging battlewagons/trucks that are open topped, the dok tools.

A t8 battle wagon takes some work to kill, and then you have to deal with the guys on the inside. One turn of movement+advance and a unit of Orks is now in your face.

You can tell he has not actually played a round of 8th edition yet with how he talks about things. Maybe against a 7th edition list at most. I bet he doesnt even know how stupid useful tau drones are now. I would be curious to see what his scion list would do against a storm surge with bubble wrap and 15 shield drones.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 14:17:51


Post by: Therion


Edited for speaking the truth.




Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 14:21:18


Post by: Blacksails


 Therion wrote:
walk away boy.



How to lose credibility and respect in 3 simple words. [Edit] Just saw your post above. Could you sound any more like an donkey-cave? There is quite simply no need for that level of hostility.

Anyways, the numbers floating around about average wounds dealt for the Russ weaponry is pretty convincing. Looks like its all about the Battle Cannons, Punishers, and Demolishers. I might still try out some plasma boats with tank orders to help, but I'm definitely magnetizing my turrets for this edition.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 14:24:41


Post by: Leth


Okay, Show me the math of how easy it is to kill a battlewagon considering your deep striking scions wont be inside of 12 inches, hell its easy enough to keep you outside of 24 if I really wanted to or I am going first. and most of your army will be over 18 inches away if you are going first? Before you say anything, three models is all it takes to protect my battle wagon from deep strike.

Same for a stormsurge instead of a battle wagon with 10 shield drones

Well, lets see it.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 14:24:57


Post by: Therion


Edited for speaking the truth.







Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 14:26:02


Post by: NenkotaMoon


 Blacksails wrote:
 Therion wrote:
walk away boy.



How to lose credibility and respect in 3 simple words. [Edit] Just saw your post above. Could you sound any more like an donkey-cave? There is quite simply no need for that level of hostility.

Anyways, the numbers floating around about average wounds dealt for the Russ weaponry is pretty convincing. Looks like its all about the Battle Cannons, Punishers, and Demolishers. I might still try out some plasma boats with tank orders to help, but I'm definitely magnetizing my turrets for this edition.


That's why I don't really give a damn what he has said, not like his ideas had much merit on the table to begin with.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 14:27:03


Post by: Leth


 Therion wrote:
 Blacksails wrote:
 Therion wrote:
walk away boy.



How to lose credibility and respect in 3 simple words. [Edit] Just saw your post above. Could you sound any more like an donkey-cave? There is quite simply no need for that level of hostility.

Anyways, the numbers floating around about average wounds dealt for the Russ weaponry is pretty convincing. Looks like its all about the Battle Cannons, Punishers, and Demolishers. I might still try out some plasma boats with tank orders to help, but I'm definitely magnetizing my turrets for this edition.


You are gamers. Anonymous gamers. I don't want your respect. What would that be worth? As far as credibility is concerned, my arguments speak for themselves, and so does the math. Historically, I also have a very good success rate at tournaments. You refuse to acknowledge straightforward bulletproof logic, and flawless math, and you think my credibility is in question. Yeah. Walk away.



Well I gave you an opportunity to show me this math, lets see it.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 14:27:39


Post by: daedalus


Where is this supposedly unbeatable list? I haven't seen it in the last three pages.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 14:29:46


Post by: Blacksails


Probably best for the thread to not engage with that level of donkey-cave behaviour. We have 20+ pages of good discussion, lets not get it ruined by one guy having a bad day.

What are the thoughts on the best Assassin to bring? Vindicaire still good this edition? Or is it still with the anti-psyker one (Culexus?) for shutting down enemy powers?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 14:30:31


Post by: Alpharius


GENERAL IN THREAD WARNING TIME:

RULE #1.

NOT OPTIONAL.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 14:31:28


Post by: Leth


 Alpharius wrote:
GENERAL IN THREAD WARNING TIME:

RULE #1.

NOT OPTIONAL.


Thank you!

Swear if he was not a foreigner I would have sworn calling me boy was him being racist.

Assassins are a difficult one. One of the nice things I like about the callidus is with a decently low roll(with a re-roll) she can get inside the bubble wraps we can expect to see. Eversor is basically a really good chance to charge the first turn it comes in. Vindicare is mixed. If you dont deploy him on the first turn he is hitting on 3's the turn he shows up. Also you have to be very careful of the "infantry" keyword. I found that out the fun way that battlesuits are not infantry....


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 14:34:05


Post by: NenkotaMoon


 Leth wrote:
 Alpharius wrote:
GENERAL IN THREAD WARNING TIME:

RULE #1.

NOT OPTIONAL.


Thank you!

Swear if he was not a foreigner I would have sworn calling me boy was him being racist.


Boy you got a pretty mouth, I'll let you date my sister XD.

Jokes aside, Rule #1 is important. Keep it civil.





Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 14:36:00


Post by: Blacksails


 Leth wrote:


Assassins are a difficult one. One of the nice things I like about the callidus is with a decently low roll(with a re-roll) she can get inside the bubble wraps we can expect to see. Eversor is basically a really good chance to charge the first turn it comes in. Vindicare is mixed. If you dont deploy him on the first turn he is hitting on 3's the turn he shows up. Also you have to be very careful of the "infantry" keyword. I found that out the fun way that battlesuits are not infantry....


Good points.

I'm not gonna lie, its a little overwhelming playing an Imperium army with how easy it is to mix and match elements that used to be shoehorned in separate detachments.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 14:42:26


Post by: Leth


 Blacksails wrote:
 Leth wrote:


Assassins are a difficult one. One of the nice things I like about the callidus is with a decently low roll(with a re-roll) she can get inside the bubble wraps we can expect to see. Eversor is basically a really good chance to charge the first turn it comes in. Vindicare is mixed. If you dont deploy him on the first turn he is hitting on 3's the turn he shows up. Also you have to be very careful of the "infantry" keyword. I found that out the fun way that battlesuits are not infantry....


Good points.

I'm not gonna lie, its a little overwhelming playing an Imperium army with how easy it is to mix and match elements that used to be shoehorned in separate detachments.


Yeah, I just counted up all my DKOK and I have 89 of them before heavy weapons platforms. So I will have one of the most expensive moneywise 50 man conscript squads you can have.............

For 150 points plus 20 for a character and 35 for a commissar(feels wrong without a power sword and bolt pistol) for 205 points it is a no brainer in any imperial list (IMO)


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 14:43:19


Post by: NenkotaMoon


I think honestly I do like the Detachment thing, but would still like for IG to gain back Platoons and Blob. It is what made them unique to me, that and the flavor and fluff to be had with some sort of combination of Platoon and Detachment would be awesome. Blobs for suitability in melee for regular Guard. Turn one charges will destroy regular squads of 10.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Leth wrote:
 Blacksails wrote:
 Leth wrote:


Assassins are a difficult one. One of the nice things I like about the callidus is with a decently low roll(with a re-roll) she can get inside the bubble wraps we can expect to see. Eversor is basically a really good chance to charge the first turn it comes in. Vindicare is mixed. If you dont deploy him on the first turn he is hitting on 3's the turn he shows up. Also you have to be very careful of the "infantry" keyword. I found that out the fun way that battlesuits are not infantry....


Good points.

I'm not gonna lie, its a little overwhelming playing an Imperium army with how easy it is to mix and match elements that used to be shoehorned in separate detachments.


Yeah, I just counted up all my DKOK and I have 89 of them before heavy weapons platforms. So I will have one of the most expensive moneywise 50 man conscript squads you can have.............

For 150 points plus 20 for a character and 35 for a commissar(feels wrong without a power sword and bolt pistol) for 205 points it is a no brainer in any imperial list (IMO)


Conscripts will be necessary to survive melee and to shrink wrap more vehicles and other units.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 14:45:31


Post by: Leth


In regards to the loss of blobs. While it has its advantages in the current edition it is also a liability. With how easy it is for enemies to get multi-charges, engage multiple units at once and the loss of IC unit buffs having a 50 man blob is much easier to counter. Also considering how cheap and easy it is to get orders now(I mean 2 orders for 30 points? madness!!) Its not as big of a deal to have blobs.

It feels more fluffy now that you can have overlapping squads covering fire, dedicated advancing units and long range units within a platoon. So on and so forth.

Now I just need to try and get enough tanith models to have 1-2 "Veteran" Squads.

Anyone know of any third party lines that would make good tanith?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 15:01:04


Post by: Trickstick


 Leth wrote:
Anyone know of any third party lines that would make good tanith?


Well I know Victoria Miniatures are well regarded. Had a look for a Tanith-style model, found these.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 15:01:04


Post by: Blacksails


 Leth wrote:


Anyone know of any third party lines that would make good tanith?


I don't know what Tanith looks like specifically, but Victoria Miniatures has tons of GW compatible bits. Could probably find a combo that fits your needs.

No fair Trickstick, our time stamps are literally the same, but yours is first.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 15:14:39


Post by: daedalus


I'll third Victoria. I think they've been making resin models for all the retired ig lines. I picked up some not-mordians from them that arrived about a week ago. The styles are different, but will blend in pretty well. Their lasguns in particular are pretty different looking, so I'm using mine for sniper riflea. I don't care much for the rest of their weapons, but they also have empty arms so you can use the gw weapons if you want.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 15:19:49


Post by: NenkotaMoon


Yea, Victoria Miniatures are what you want. They gots the gudz.

I just don't like the 10 mans. They lack BS even with orders, and from my experience with them on small games using what we know, get deleted in melee before you could say "Everyday we stray farther and farther from the Emperors Light".


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 15:26:36


Post by: Trickstick


 Blacksails wrote:
No fair Trickstick, our time stamps are literally the same, but yours is first.


I guess I just have a better quality of Navigator, no warp-delays for me.

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
I just don't like the 10 mans. They lack BS even with orders, and from my experience with them on small games using what we know, get deleted in melee before you could say "Everyday we stray farther and farther from the Emperors Light".


You could see getting deleted as an advantage. If they charge you and do 23 wounds, yet only kill 10, that is a win. As long as you pay attention to spacing and avoid multi-charges.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 15:32:30


Post by: Leth


 NenkotaMoon wrote:
Yea, Victoria Miniatures are what you want. They gots the gudz.

I just don't like the 10 mans. They lack BS even with orders, and from my experience with them on small games using what we know, get deleted in melee before you could say "Everyday we stray farther and farther from the Emperors Light".


I agree it is definatly an adjustment. and they probably have lost a lot of their usefulness with the changes to everything else. However one thing I really like is that they have a vox, and so it is easy to get orders to the guys at the front who are holding the line without actually risking one of your characters to do it.

Also I think those Victoria cloaked torsos and legs are perfect. I think if I can get some loose hands and find a different set of heads then it should work just fine! Thanks for the heads up. I am already getting their sniper rifles to add to my kriegers after I saw an awesome conversion with them.

But one thing I am strongly considering is taking advantage of our command squads. I think two snipers and a heavy weapons team for sub 50 points is a solid investment when they have the veterans profile.

Personally I am thrown off on the pricing but maybe that is intentional as we dont have a profile for "heavy weapon teams" specifically. I assumed it was going to be the cost of two guardsmen, however if you look at the cost for a heavy weapons squad it is 4 points per model not 8.

So do we pay for both guardsmen like it implies, or do we just pay for one as the pricing for the heavy weapons squads imply.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 15:44:38


Post by: ross-128


Huh, that's a good point. If taking a heavy weapon shaves 4 points off the base cost of the squad, that's pretty significant.

In a large, infantry-heavy army those 4 points can really add up. Could probably get a whole extra squad out of that.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 15:49:14


Post by: Trickstick


 Leth wrote:
So do we pay for both guardsmen like it implies, or do we just pay for one as the pricing for the heavy weapons squads imply.



I would say both. The "infantry squad" entry in the point list states that it is a 10 model squad, it doesn't have the option to pay for just 8. It's not like you pay for the sergeant separately, why the HWT?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 16:03:22


Post by: Leth


 Trickstick wrote:
 Leth wrote:
So do we pay for both guardsmen like it implies, or do we just pay for one as the pricing for the heavy weapons squads imply.



I would say both. The "infantry squad" entry in the point list states that it is a 10 model squad, it doesn't have the option to pay for just 8. It's not like you pay for the sergeant separately, why the HWT?


Yep, that is how I plan to go about it, however it does help mitigate the cost of the HWTs and so they become a little more attractive. Still not as attractive as the cmd squads to me lol.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 16:12:37


Post by: Ragnar Blackmane


 Leth wrote:

So do we pay for both guardsmen like it implies, or do we just pay for one as the pricing for the heavy weapons squads imply.


As I read it you still have to buy the 2 guardsmen that form the heavy weapon team, so they are 4 pts more expensive than a standalone heavy weapons team in a HWS. Considering how cheap the heavy weapons are, paying 8 points for the crew is still a good deal... especially with the durability you gain by having better morale and ablative wounds to keep them alive, as well as easier order access with a vox in the squad.

Also another big incentive to put heavy weapon teams into squads is that you effectively get back the 2 guardsmen models per squad that get replaced with the heavy weapons team, which you can then use to build yet another heavy weapon team with a spare base or for forming an entire new squads (especially SWS or CCS). Saves a bunch of money.

I see the point of conscripts but I think I'll stick with regular squads for the forseeable future, vox access, special weapons and a 1pt bolter for the sergeant (who keeps his chainsword for the extra attack!) as well as not being completely reliant on Commissars (in case they get sniped or end up outside their aura bubbles) justifies the exta 1PPM for me. Even as chaff units they do a good and cheap job for 48 points per squad with a bolter and a flamer (which can put some serious hurt on turn one chargers such as Gaunts or Orcs, especially if they do get to pull off a multi-charge). If you want some long range all-comers punch then throw in a 8 pt heavy bolter (hey, you only lose one lasgun doing that too ^^!) One thing to consider when comparing Infantry to conscript squads is that the Sergeant is a free upgrade and that you get to use grenades more efficiently and more of them (the latter admittingly a really minor bonus).


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 16:15:59


Post by: Leth


 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
 Leth wrote:

So do we pay for both guardsmen like it implies, or do we just pay for one as the pricing for the heavy weapons squads imply.


As I read it you still have to buy the 2 guardsmen that form the heavy weapon team, so they are 4 pts more expensive than a standalone heavy weapons team in a HWS. Considering how cheap the heavy weapons are, paying 8 points for the crew is still a good deal... especially with the durability you gain by having better morale and ablative wounds to keep them alive, as well as easier order access with a vox in the squad.

Also another big incentive to put heavy weapon teams into squads is that you effectively save the 2 guardsmen models per squad that get replaced with the heavy weapons team back, which you can then use to build yet another heavy weapon team with a spare base. Saves a bunch of money.

I see the point of conscripts but I think I'll stick with regular squads for the forseeable future, vox access, special weapons and a 1pt bolter for the sergeant (who keeps his chainsword for the extra attack!) as well es being not completely reliant on Commissars (in case they get sniped or end up outside their aura bubbles) justifies the exta 1PPM for me. Even as chaff units they do a good and cheap job for 58 points per squad with a bolter and a flamer (which can put some serious hurt on turn one chargers such as Gaunts or Orcs, especially if they do get to pull off a multi-charge). If you want some long range all-comers punch then throw in a 8 pt heavy bolter (hey, you only lose one lasgun doing that too ^^!) One thing to consider when comparing Infantry to conscript squads is that the Sergeant is a free upgrade and that you get to use grenades more officiently and more of them (the latter admittingly a really minor bonus).


O yeah I totally agree, I will also be taking infantry squads. Just one unit of 50 for the bubble wrap while I invest points elsewhere.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 16:34:45


Post by: RegulusBlack


sorry if i missed this, i know i can take multiple detachments (IG, plus sisters, plus Knights for example)

But can i have (in a Battalion detachment) Vulkan (HQ), with BA chaplains (ELITE) and IG scions (Troops) and Space Wolf Bikes (FA), and Sister Excorcists (HEAVY) and still get my +3 CP for a legitimate BN detachment?

If that's the case Imperium Forces are (somewhat objectively) broken compared to the stand alone races (Orks, Tau) as we can mitigate any drawbacks with optimized units.

That being said whoot, SUPER AWESOME IMPERIUM FORCE DELTA NINJA TEAM to the rescue (trademarked and copyrighted)


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 16:41:01


Post by: Trickstick


 RegulusBlack wrote:
sorry if i missed this, i know i can take multiple detachments (IG, plus sisters, plus Knights for example)

But can i have (in a Battalion detachment) Vulkan (HQ), with BA chaplains (ELITE) and IG scions (Troops) and Space Wolf Bikes (FA), and Sister Excorcists (HEAVY) and still get my +3 CP for a legitimate BN detachment?

If that's the case Imperium Forces are (somewhat objectively) broken compared to the stand alone races (Orks, Tau) as we can mitigate any drawbacks with optimized units.

That being said whoot, SUPER AWESOME IMPERIUM FORCE DELTA NINJA TEAM to the rescue (trademarked and copyrighted)


Yeah, you can just build an army using the Imperium keyword. You are giving up on synergy though, as a lot of auras only work on their own armies.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 16:43:55


Post by: Aesthete


 NenkotaMoon wrote:
Yea, Victoria Miniatures are what you want. They gots the gudz.

I just don't like the 10 mans. They lack BS even with orders, and from my experience with them on small games using what we know, get deleted in melee before you could say "Everyday we stray farther and farther from the Emperors Light".


Victoria is great for sure. I don't think they have much in the way of Tanith style heads though -- but check out these from Max Mini: http://maxmini.eu/conversion-bits/head-swaps/desert-dwellers-heads-bits

I have those heads and they fit great with existing IG bodies (and presumably with Victoria's male IG bodies as well, if you like the uniform styling there).


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 16:44:53


Post by: Crimson


 RegulusBlack wrote:

But can i have (in a Battalion detachment) Vulkan (HQ), with BA chaplains (ELITE) and IG scions (Troops) and Space Wolf Bikes (FA), and Sister Excorcists (HEAVY) and still get my +3 CP for a legitimate BN detachment?

Yes, you can. It is not as awesome as it sounds though, as most of the buffs on those models won't work on each other. In your example Vulkan and BA chaplain could not use their buff abilities on any of your other units, as those abilities work only on the members of their chapters.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 16:47:43


Post by: Desubot


 Crimson wrote:
 RegulusBlack wrote:

But can i have (in a Battalion detachment) Vulkan (HQ), with BA chaplains (ELITE) and IG scions (Troops) and Space Wolf Bikes (FA), and Sister Excorcists (HEAVY) and still get my +3 CP for a legitimate BN detachment?

Yes, you can. It is not as awesome as it sounds though, as most of the buffs on those models won't work on each other. In your example Vulkan and BA chaplain could not use their buff abilities on any of your other units, as those abilities work only on the members of their chapters.


Yeah honestly finding that some of those auras are just as good if not more consistent that Command point rerolls. having a few points is nice for other strats though.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 17:02:58


Post by: NenkotaMoon


 Aesthete wrote:
 NenkotaMoon wrote:
Yea, Victoria Miniatures are what you want. They gots the gudz.

I just don't like the 10 mans. They lack BS even with orders, and from my experience with them on small games using what we know, get deleted in melee before you could say "Everyday we stray farther and farther from the Emperors Light".


Victoria is great for sure. I don't think they have much in the way of Tanith style heads though -- but check out these from Max Mini: http://maxmini.eu/conversion-bits/head-swaps/desert-dwellers-heads-bits

I have those heads and they fit great with existing IG bodies (and presumably with Victoria's male IG bodies as well, if you like the uniform styling there).


Those look more Tallarn that Tanith

Still, a lot of strategies have to deal with Turn 1 deletion. Melee will kill us more than ever with how quick we'll be getting into it. Im not actually scared of us against more shooty armies or combos, but Tyranids and Orks can wipe the floor if we aren't too careful. More and more I am really liking vehicle mounted or infantry based flamers.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 17:07:23


Post by: Otto von Bludd


So what kind of upgrades, if any, are people thinking about for infantry squads? I'm seriously having trouble deciding how I want to equip them now. Flamers or plasma guns, even plasma pistols and power swords, seem like a good choice, and maybe a missile launcher for versatility? Then again though, those prices quickly add up to the price of the squad itself. There is definitely a case to be made for pure lasguns too. Missile launcher and flamer though seems like a pretty good idea.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 17:08:25


Post by: Trickstick


 NenkotaMoon wrote:
Still, a lot of strategies have to deal with Turn 1 deletion. Melee will kill us more than ever with how quick we'll be getting into it. Im not actually scared of us against more shooty armies or combos, but Tyranids and Orks can wipe the floor if we aren't too careful. More and more I am really liking vehicle mounted or infantry based flamers.


Gotta love old Mr. Yellow. Just be careful about units that can make long charges, as it is easy to stay outside of the 8" flamer range.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 17:45:02


Post by: daedalus


 Trickstick wrote:

I would say both. The "infantry squad" entry in the point list states that it is a 10 model squad, it doesn't have the option to pay for just 8. It's not like you pay for the sergeant separately, why the HWT?


I agree with this. You buy 10 models at the regular price per model. You must buy 10, no more, and no less. At that point, two of them may form into a heavy weapons team. This doesn't cost anything since you're not buying more models, but having two of the models you've bought form a team, but then they must take wargear from the heavy weapons list (which does cost something).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What I still don't quite get is when you pay for wargear. So, say a Rough Rider is 8 points per model. But each one comes standard with a riding lance, which is 2 points per model. So then is the actual points per model 10?

That's what it seems like, but I would appreciate clarification.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 18:12:28


Post by: condon


 daedalus wrote:
What I still don't quite get is when you pay for wargear. So, say a Rough Rider is 8 points per model. But each one comes standard with a riding lance, which is 2 points per model. So then is the actual points per model 10?

That's what it seems like, but I would appreciate clarification.


You've got this right. Another way to frame it is that you select your wargear options THEN go add up points.

Take the example of a Leman Russ.

It comes with battle cannon and heavy bolter, I want to add 2 more bolters and a hunter killer. When I cost out that unit I do:

Base + BC + 3x heavy B + HK.

If instead I wanted to switch the battle cannon for a vanquisher, and maybe not take the extra stuff, it would just be:

Base + VC + HB + HK.

Rather than fiddling with 'well switching the battle cannon on THIS model costs X, but on THAT model costs Y' you just add the base and all the wargear at the end of the process.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 18:20:10


Post by: daedalus


Man, that's a rough switch to get my head wrapped around after 4 editions of doing it the other way. Thanks for confirming though.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 18:32:22


Post by: Aesthete


As for builds... here's what I'm thinking:

At 1K - Brigade (for 12 CP)

HQ: Company Commande x2, Tempestor Prime w/ Rod
Troops: 4 x Infantry Squad, 2 x Scions (5, w/ 2 x Plasma Gun, 1 x Plasma Pistol)
Elite: Ratling Snipers (5), 2 x Commissar (w/ Bolt Pistol), Priest, 2 x Astropath (w/ Las Pistol)
Fast Attack: Rough Riders (5), 2 x Scout Sentinel (w/ Hvy. Flamer, Chainsaw)
Heavy: 2 x Mortar Squad, Manticore w/ Heavy Flamer
Transport: Taurox Prime (w/ Gatling, 2 x Volley Guns)

The strategy is fairly simple I think, the heavies hang back with a couple of squads for wrap + CO & Commissar. The Taurox likely starts there as well. Midfield has a couple of squads + CO + Commissar + Priest + Astropat. Ratlings and Sentinels are up front to distract, redirect, and slow giving their lives to slow advances down. Scions (incl. Tempestor) look for potential enemy backline assassination, wave attack disruptions (to buy more heavy firing time) or where ever needed. Rough Riders outflank looking for a cheap shot or to distract enemy advances.

At 1500 pts, I go up to 13 cp with the addition of a Vanguard detachment and the following units:

HQ: Commissar Yarrick (for rerolling ones on artillery and a last ditch melee fighter should enemies reach the firebase).
Troops: One of the infantry squads gets replaced by another 5 person Scion plasma squad.
Elites: another Astropath, an Eversor Assassin (to test them out), and a Command Squad w/ four Plasma Guns.
Heavy: another Manticore w/ heavy flamer.
Transport: another Taurox Prime.

At 2K I get more of the basic infantry back (6 squads total), another Rough Rider Squad, another Priest, a couple more Eversor Assassins (in case Therion is right - I might as well give it a go and I'm converting some "mean girls" models to do it), another Ratling squad, a Primaris Psyker, and a total of 4 5-person Scion Plasma Squads. The plasma command squad gets replaced by a special weapons flamer squad though. In terms of structure I'll be running a Brigade and a Batalion for a cool 15 cp.

The general tactical approach remains the same as it was at 1K with 1.5K and 2K just with more of the different tools, basically. I reckon I'll have fun playing them and I think they'll be decent.

... I do want to experiment with some crusader squads out front to soak up fire and slow down advances, but that'll be for another list I think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NenkotaMoon wrote:

Those look more Tallarn that Tanith


Right. My mistake, confusing the "Ta-" IG regiments...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Otto von Bludd wrote:
So what kind of upgrades, if any, are people thinking about for infantry squads? I'm seriously having trouble deciding how I want to equip them now. Flamers or plasma guns, even plasma pistols and power swords, seem like a good choice, and maybe a missile launcher for versatility? Then again though, those prices quickly add up to the price of the squad itself. There is definitely a case to be made for pure lasguns too. Missile launcher and flamer though seems like a pretty good idea.


Personally I'm starting out with pure lasgun, and concentrating upgrades in their own squads.

If through play I find that I need better range for command I might get voxes, but in general my philosophy is that those squads are there to die in the place of more valuable troops so I aim to keep them cheap.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 19:07:20


Post by: iddy00711


@ Aesthete

The Taurox would be more useful with 2 Auto-cannons over the Volley guns.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 19:19:33


Post by: Ragnar Blackmane


It kinda got drowned and ignored, but I want to pick it up again:
What do you guys think of the Imperial Defense Line?
For 85 points you get this:


For a pretty huge terrain piece with quite some coverage, especially if you use the end pieces to extend the line (it's the long trench piece in the front, except with two more end pieces):


The thing to note is that while infantry units on/in the terrain piece gain +1 Leadership and cover (+1 on their save), all the infantry BEHIND it (from the POV of the model shooting at them) gain the cover bonus too. As you can see on the pic that trench covers a serious part of the board even without toying with the 4 end pieces, so you can probably get cover saves for most of your guardsmen infantry hordes and heavy weapon teams (and particularly important for Scions for that sweet 3+ save, LS buff helps them too), which is big now that intervening terrain doesn't give cover in most cases (the entire unit needs to stand in it). IMO way better than the Aegis line which is only 10 points cheaper and only gives cover to models within 1" behind it (now that emplacement guns were hit with the nerf hammer big time you won't pick up an Aegis for the AA guns anyway).


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 19:21:13


Post by: Polonius


 iddy00711 wrote:
@ Aesthete

The Taurox would be more useful with 2 Auto-cannons over the Volley guns.


Probably not. Strength isn't as important as it was in the past. S4 wounds up to T7 on a 5+, making the AP2 far more valuable. Also, twice the shots.

Mid strength shooting (s6-7) is the big loser so far in 8th. It's better to have either more shots or more AP, or with the HSVG, both.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
It kinda got drowned and ignored, but I want to pick it up again:
What do you guys think of the Imperial Defense Line?


My concern is that enemy infantry will get cover from anything shooting from behind it. You can just put anti-infantry weapons in the trenches, and the anti-big stuff weapons behind, but I can see a lot of time savvy opponents are going to gain cover from your own shooting.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 19:53:09


Post by: Ragnar Blackmane


 Polonius wrote:

My concern is that enemy infantry will get cover from anything shooting from behind it. You can just put anti-infantry weapons in the trenches, and the anti-big stuff weapons behind, but I can see a lot of time savvy opponents are going to gain cover from your own shooting.

I think this is a definition issue, if the model is considered to have a front (with the skulls and additional shields) and back facing (with the supplies and ammo boxes), all units on your side would be behind it and all units on the side facing the front would be in front, no matter the perspective of the model.

If it actually gives cover to infantry on both sides then I agree, the fortification would be too expensive for what it provides and too limited in application.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 19:57:51


Post by: daedalus


 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
 Polonius wrote:

My concern is that enemy infantry will get cover from anything shooting from behind it. You can just put anti-infantry weapons in the trenches, and the anti-big stuff weapons behind, but I can see a lot of time savvy opponents are going to gain cover from your own shooting.

I think this is a definition issue, if the model is considered to have a front (with the skulls and additional shields) and back facing (with the supplies and ammo boxes), all units on your side would be behind it and all units on the side facing the front would be in front, no matter the perspective of the model.

If it actually gives cover to infantry on both sides then I agree, the fortification would be too expensive for what it provides and too limited in application.


I read it like it goes both ways. "[units] behind it from the point of view of the firing unit receives the benefit of cover" seems pretty universal.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 20:01:31


Post by: gigabite244


I just really dont like that platoons arent an option for guard anymore, yea conscripts can dish out more shots at 12 inches, but that doesnt exscuse the fact that its not on a 4+ so 5+ to hit and more than likely 5-6+ to wound, why would i be okay with that? And i do like how heavy weapons teams are now heavy support as they should be, but now commissars are mandatory in elites so i cant spam those either. Finally i dont like how fast attack choices are mandatory for a brigade, i had a solid 1500 point army last edition, but now i struggled to find 1000. Also they killed the vendetta, screw that. But tbh im looking to field alot of rough riders because of how cheap they are and "outflank any baddie that wants to sit back and snipe idk about yall but i feel alot less flexible with who i can choose because i know that sime units i just didnt want to field at all.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 20:05:50


Post by: Leth


 gigabite244 wrote:
I just really dont like that platoons arent an option for guard anymore, yea conscripts can dish out more shots at 12 inches, but that doesnt exscuse the fact that its not on a 4+ so 5+ to hit and more than likely 5-6+ to wound, why would i be okay with that? And i do like how heavy weapons teams are now heavy support as they should be, but now commissars are mandatory in elites so i cant spam those either. Finally i dont like how fast attack choices are mandatory for a brigade, i had a solid 1500 point army last edition, but now i struggled to find 1000. Also they killed the vendetta, screw that. But tbh im looking to field alot of rough riders because of how cheap they are and "outflank any baddie that wants to sit back and snipe idk about yall but i feel alot less flexible with who i can choose because i know that sime units i just didnt want to field at all.


You know there is an entire elite detachment right? There is almost ZERO slot restriction now.....


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 20:13:01


Post by: Trickstick


 gigabite244 wrote:
Also they killed the vendetta, screw that.


Not really, it's just a FW unit now. There have been other units that they have passed off to FW in the past, such as the Griffon and Medusa, so it's not a new thing. I don't know how effective the Vendetta will be though, if it hits on a 5+.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 20:14:16


Post by: Blacksails


I'm thinking FW will really enhance a few slots/vehicle platforms. TL HF chimera turrets, Vendettas and Vultures, alternative Russes, and more will be more than welcome.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 20:15:19


Post by: iddy00711


@ Polonius

Actually you're right, I just did the maths. In terms of stats it's neck and neck but the extra Ap gives the Volley gun a 15% better chance at wounding.

Although the Autocannon has a longer range (so no need to move and no -1 BS) and it does 2 damage per wound, so I wouldn't dismiss it!


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 20:18:10


Post by: Polonius


I want to write a textbook on abstinence only education called "slot restriction."


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 20:19:28


Post by: Trickstick


 Blacksails wrote:
TL HF chimera turrets, Vendettas and Vultures, alternative Russes, and more will be more than welcome.


I think you meant TL HB. I got really excited over the idea of a 3 flamer chimera, and had to look it up in IA1. Unless it is from another book?

Annihilator Russ could be fun, depending on the points.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 20:22:37


Post by: Blacksails


 Trickstick wrote:
 Blacksails wrote:
TL HF chimera turrets, Vendettas and Vultures, alternative Russes, and more will be more than welcome.


I think you meant TL HB. I got really excited over the idea of a 3 flamer chimera, and had to look it up in IA1. Unless it is from another book?

Annihilator Russ could be fun, depending on the points.


Bah, you're right. Excitement levels dropped a touch there. Still be fun.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 20:26:57


Post by: Polonius


 iddy00711 wrote:
@ Polonius

Actually you're right, I just did the maths. In terms of stats it's neck and neck but the extra Ap gives the Volley gun a 15% better chance at wounding.

Although the Autocannon has a longer range (so no need to move and no -1 BS) and it does 2 damage per wound, so I wouldn't dismiss it!


I think consensus is that the Gatling cannon is the winner among the turret weapons, so the ranges will match.

Maybe I'm underthinking it, but I really don't see a lot of engagements at much more than 24" iin 8th. Things move fast, they deepstrke at will, and deployment is aggressive. While longer range allows you to be picky about your targets, 24" range will allow you to shoot something unless things are going very well.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 20:39:52


Post by: daedalus


Okay, I'm gonna think out loud about choppy guard for a while and see what comes of it.

Priest with evicerator - 57
Commissar with powerfist - 41
Infantry with power sword - 44
Infantry with power sword - 44
Total 186

I want to pause for a moment and point out that you can give the infantry squads both plasmaguns and that comes out just under 200 points.

Those units have a D3 attack that hits 2/3 of a MEQ, and a D3 attack that hits 1 MEQ on average. The squads (including the sarge) get 3 total together. That's almost half a squad of marines dead there, and you don't really care much about counterattacks.

That's not horrible for what's supposed to be a shooty army, but definitely not the best in the world either. It certainly makes them capable of cleaning up something that they shot into after. I'm not married to the evicerator for the points vs effectiveness.

Are there any holdouts from the powerblob era that have a better way of doing it yet?

Bah. Thanks for the correction.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 20:46:56


Post by: Trickstick


 daedalus wrote:
Commissar with powerfist - 40


41. I found out that I had been forgetting the 1pt bolt pistol in all of my list drafting. It's a bit annoying.

As for power blobs, I used to really love them. I am interested in seeing some mathhammer between sword/axe/maul, and how the str vs ap works.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 20:50:02


Post by: daedalus


Okay, immediate considerations I just came up with:

I think the priest loses the evicerator. Frees up 22 points.

Company commander gets added. 30 points.

Company commander can FRFSRF or Bring it Down as needed, and then post charge, issue Fix Bayonettes! or Get Back in the Fight! as needed.

That puts me at 208 points using 1 HQ, 2 Elites, and 2 Troops. I think my infantry is going to be organized in 'units' of that basic configuration. Three of these would run me 621 points, and get me a brigade with 2 HQ and 2 Elite slots left to play with, which is pretty good.

Editing this and the above for the +1 point for the damn bolt pistol. That's gonna get old.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 20:55:16


Post by: Blacksails


I like it. Brings back a 5th ed debate I had for power blobs being organized into 20 or 30-man blobs. I might do something similar with 3 squads to get a slightly better meat to support ratio.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 20:57:05


Post by: Trickstick


 Blacksails wrote:
I like it. Brings back a 5th ed debate I had for power blobs being organized into 20 or 30-man blobs. I might do something similar with 3 squads to get a slightly better meat to support ratio.


30, unless you are talking an Al'Rahem blob. Then you go 2x20 with melta and priests.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 20:58:17


Post by: Blacksails


 Trickstick wrote:
 Blacksails wrote:
I like it. Brings back a 5th ed debate I had for power blobs being organized into 20 or 30-man blobs. I might do something similar with 3 squads to get a slightly better meat to support ratio.


30, unless you are talking an Al'Rahem blob. Then you go 2x20 with melta and priests.


You're making me sad reminding we don't have him.

Also, we don't have melta bombs either eh? Just remembered that now that you mention it.

So clocking in at 642pts, you could get;

2x Flamer/HB/Power Sword Infantry Squads
2x Las/Plas/Power Sword Infantry Squads
2x GL/AC/Power Sword Infantry Squads

2x PS/BP Company Commanders
2x PS/BP Commissars
2x Eviscerator Priests

Slots in nicely to a battalion detachment, run them as 2 30-man blobs each getting one of the support characters. Double it for a little shy of 1300pts and fill the other slots with whatever you need to make a brigade.

I think that'll end up as my rough core for any foot slogging force. Weapons subject to change. Except those las/plas squads. Love me some of those.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 21:04:52


Post by: Trickstick


 Blacksails wrote:
Also, we don't have melta bombs either eh? Just remembered that now that you mention it.


Wow, you are right. I had not noticed. The Eversor can get them I guess, although at 4" range they are not the most useful grenade.

We do get demo charges, which are better really. It is just a shame that you can't throw all 3 from a SWS in a single go, as grenades are limited to 1 a turn.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 21:12:10


Post by: Blacksails


 Trickstick wrote:
 Blacksails wrote:
Also, we don't have melta bombs either eh? Just remembered that now that you mention it.


Wow, you are right. I had not noticed. The Eversor can get them I guess, although at 4" range they are not the most useful grenade.

We do get demo charges, which are better really. It is just a shame that you can't throw all 3 from a SWS in a single go, as grenades are limited to 1 a turn.


I was just thinking how nice they were in power blobs for messing up vehicles. With everything being T/Sv, they'd be pretty cool with likely D6 damage.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 21:15:42


Post by: Chris521


I'm curious about how the keywords for the forgeworld stuff will work. Obviously Death Corps and Elysians will have a regiment, but how about the other stuff? I know it's not a problem to fit things in an Imperium detachment, but I hope most of the armored goodies will be able to be apart of any regiment we want.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 21:17:52


Post by: Trickstick


 Chris521 wrote:
I'm curious about how the keywords for the forgeworld stuff will work. Obviously Death Corps and Elysians will have a regiment, but how about the other stuff? I know it's not a problem to fit things in an Imperium detachment, but I hope most of the armored goodies will be able to be apart of any regiment we want.


I would place a significant bet on the normal vehicles being Imperium, Astra Militarum, <Regiment>.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 21:25:00


Post by: daedalus


 Trickstick wrote:

As for power blobs, I used to really love them. I am interested in seeing some mathhammer between sword/axe/maul, and how the str vs ap works.


I'm staring at the melee table now. So, the power weapons are all balanced so that you get 3 points worth of effect on them. You can either put it all into AP (power sword), put two of them into AP and 1 into S (power axe) or one into AP and two into S (power lance/maul). Powerfists are weird, because it gives you three points in strength (for AM) and 4 into AP, but you lose to hit in the process. They're also more expensive, which makes sense. This strange way of explaining it is to break down where each point counts for what percentage. WS and AP are a direct 16.6% of effectiveness per point one way or the other, while S is trickier nowadays. For guard vs MEQ, the first two points translate into 16.6% more effectiveness, but the next point doesn't, since S6 vs T4 is still 3+ just like S5 vs T4.

As far as math goes, the best one depends mostly on what you're fighting. If you assume the world is T4 / SV 3+, then:

- a normal guard attack has a 5.5% chance of killing a SM (50% * 33.3% * 33.3%)
- power sword has a 13.8% kill chance (50% * 33.3% * 83.3% [normal: 33.3%])
- power axe has a 16.6% kill chance (50% * 50% [normal 33.3%] * 66.6% [normal: 33.3%])
- power maul has a 16.6% kill chance (50% * 66.6% [normal 33.3%] * 50% [normal 33.3%])
- power fist has a 22% kill chance (33.3% * 66.6% [normal 33.3%] * 100% [normal 33.3%]) and does D3 wounds.

Seems like the power fist is the best overall, though it also costs more than double. Looking at it though, against greater toughness, I think the maul would actually lose out until T9 or so, and even then, I'm not sure it would ever be worth the loss of AP.

EDIT: There were errors in my math. Now corrected (referring to those errors. Future errors not impossible)


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 21:33:21


Post by: Trickstick


 daedalus wrote:
As far as math goes, the best one depends mostly on what you're fighting. If you assume the world is T4 / SV 3+, then:

- a normal guard attack has a 5.5% chance of killing a SM (50% * 33.3% * 33.3%)
- power sword has a 16.6% kill chance (50% * 33.3% *100 [normal: 33.3%])
- power axe has a 16.6% kill chance (50% * 50% [normal 33.3%] * 66.6% [normal: 33.3%])
- power maul has a 16.6% kill chance (50% * 66.6% [normal 33.3%] * 50% [normal 33.3%])
- power fist has a 22% kill chance (33.3% * 66.6% [normal 33.3%] * 100% [normal 33.3%]) and does D3 wounds.


So they are all pretty much the same against MEQ, other than fists. It is a shame that Infantry Sqauds can't take them. I assume that fists are the best choice for anything 3+ or better. So it really comes down to points.

I guess that using a mix of weapons could work, and that no weapon is the best for everything you could face with standard sergeants.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 21:36:33


Post by: bogalubov


 Trickstick wrote:
 daedalus wrote:
Commissar with powerfist - 40


41. I found out that I had been forgetting the 1pt bolt pistol in all of my list drafting. It's a bit annoying.

As for power blobs, I used to really love them. I am interested in seeing some mathhammer between sword/axe/maul, and how the str vs ap works.


All the power weapons are about the same in terms of killing marines. The power maul and axe are equal, while the sword is a little worse. Against toughness 5 targets with 3+ save the sword becomes marginally better.
Until you get to toughness 8, the axe will generally be better. Which is easy enough as I converted all my dudes to axes in 6th and 7th edition.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 21:37:57


Post by: Blacksails


I'll be sticking to the sword for modelling purposes. I think it looks the prettiest too.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 21:44:20


Post by: bogalubov


 daedalus wrote:
 Trickstick wrote:

As for power blobs, I used to really love them. I am interested in seeing some mathhammer between sword/axe/maul, and how the str vs ap works.


I'm staring at the melee table now. So, the power weapons are all balanced so that you get 3 points worth of effect on them. You can either put it all into AP (power sword), put two of them into AP and 1 into S (power axe) or one into AP and two into S (power lance/maul). Powerfists are weird, because it gives you three points in strength (for AM) and 4 into AP, but you lose to hit in the process. They're also more expensive, which makes sense. This strange way of explaining it is to break down where each point counts for what percentage. WS and AP are a direct 16.6% of effectiveness per point one way or the other, while S is trickier nowadays. For guard vs MEQ, the first two points translate into 16.6% more effectiveness, but the next point doesn't, since S6 vs T4 is still 3+ just like S5 vs T4.

As far as math goes, the best one depends mostly on what you're fighting. If you assume the world is T4 / SV 3+, then:

- a normal guard attack has a 5.5% chance of killing a SM (50% * 33.3% * 33.3%)
- power sword has a 16.6% kill chance (50% * 33.3% *100 [normal: 33.3%])
- power axe has a 16.6% kill chance (50% * 50% [normal 33.3%] * 66.6% [normal: 33.3%])
- power maul has a 16.6% kill chance (50% * 66.6% [normal 33.3%] * 50% [normal 33.3%])
- power fist has a 22% kill chance (33.3% * 66.6% [normal 33.3%] * 100% [normal 33.3%]) and does D3 wounds.

Seems like the power fist is the best overall, though it also costs more than double. Looking at it though, against greater toughness, I think the maul would actually lose out until T9 or so, and even then, I'm not sure it would ever be worth the loss of AP. I think that the power axe loses to the sword from T5-T8. I'm going to say that the power fist is the way to go if you have the points, and the power sword is the second best. The other weapons are worse than the power sword unless you're specifically going after high toughness (T7+) with paper armor, and even then, the powerfist is still much better.


I might be reading your notations wrong, but marines still get a 6+ against a power sword. With the change to the wounding table, the axe takes a dip in effectiveness against T5, but gains effectiveness compared to the sword against T6 and 7. Then the sword is slightly better against t8 and above.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 22:19:05


Post by: NenkotaMoon


 gigabite244 wrote:
I just really dont like that platoons arent an option for guard anymore, yea conscripts can dish out more shots at 12 inches, but that doesnt exscuse the fact that its not on a 4+ so 5+ to hit and more than likely 5-6+ to wound, why would i be okay with that? And i do like how heavy weapons teams are now heavy support as they should be, but now commissars are mandatory in elites so i cant spam those either. Finally i dont like how fast attack choices are mandatory for a brigade, i had a solid 1500 point army last edition, but now i struggled to find 1000. Also they killed the vendetta, screw that. But tbh im looking to field alot of rough riders because of how cheap they are and "outflank any baddie that wants to sit back and snipe idk about yall but i feel alot less flexible with who i can choose because i know that sime units i just didnt want to field at all.


I know how you feel, though Vendetta's are still around as everyone else has stated, just under FW.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 22:29:47


Post by: daedalus


bogalubov wrote:

I might be reading your notations wrong, but marines still get a 6+ against a power sword. With the change to the wounding table, the axe takes a dip in effectiveness against T5, but gains effectiveness compared to the sword against T6 and 7. Then the sword is slightly better against t8 and above.


Nope. I was rushing to get out of the office and blew the mathhammer. You're absolutely right.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 23:26:13


Post by: Humble Guardsman


 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
It kinda got drowned and ignored, but I want to pick it up again:
What do you guys think of the Imperial Defense Line?
Spoiler:

For 85 points you get this:


For a pretty huge terrain piece with quite some coverage, especially if you use the end pieces to extend the line (it's the long trench piece in the front, except with two more end pieces): to


The thing to note is that while infantry units on/in the terrain piece gain +1 Leadership and cover (+1 on their save), all the infantry BEHIND it (from the POV of the model shooting at them) gain the cover bonus too. As you can see on the pic that trench covers a serious part of the board even without toying with the 4 end pieces, so you can probably get cover saves for most of your guardsmen infantry hordes and heavy weapon teams (and particularly important for Scions for that sweet 3+ save, LS buff helps them too), which is big now that intervening terrain doesn't give cover in most cases (the entire unit needs to stand in it). IMO way better than the Aegis line which is only 10 points cheaper and only gives cover to models within 1" behind it (now that emplacement guns were hit with the nerf hammer big time you won't pick up an Aegis for the AA guns anyway).


I'm with you on the importance of fortifications, with a few disputing points. I themed my guard after a WW1 Brit regiment so trenches hold a special in my heart.

1) The Quad-Gun is nerfed, yes. But it is also significantly cheaper. For its points it's pumping out a not insignificant amount of damage against flyers. It is mathematically possible (though not likely) to down a W12 flyer in one turn with it. Also, I may not be correct but I can't actually find the wound stats for a gun emplacement at all, the enemy might not be able to even target it. I've probably missed something there.

2) The Defence Line grants cover to troops behind it unlike the Aegis, however it also probably locos line of sight for a lot of those models you would have firing out. Excellent for a Mortar team, not ideal for the majority of your other infantry units.

3) it's frikkin difficult to place heavy weapons teams in there.

4) I believe the Aegis is a little longer. It should be possible to reliably grant a +1 cover to infantry sitting on not one but two objectives in many matches.

I think both GW models for these are ugly though. I plan on crafting my own trenches and sandbag emplacements to the same measurements.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NenkotaMoon wrote:
 gigabite244 wrote:
I just really dont like that platoons arent an option for guard anymore, yea conscripts can dish out more shots at 12 inches, but that doesnt exscuse the fact that its not on a 4+ so 5+ to hit and more than likely 5-6+ to wound, why would i be okay with that? And i do like how heavy weapons teams are now heavy support as they should be, but now commissars are mandatory in elites so i cant spam those either. Finally i dont like how fast attack choices are mandatory for a brigade, i had a solid 1500 point army last edition, but now i struggled to find 1000. Also they killed the vendetta, screw that. But tbh im looking to field alot of rough riders because of how cheap they are and "outflank any baddie that wants to sit back and snipe idk about yall but i feel alot less flexible with who i can choose because i know that sime units i just didnt want to field at all.


I know how you feel, though Vendetta's are still around as everyone else has stated, just under FW.


Most tournaments disallow FW models. At least in my neck of the woods.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 23:42:09


Post by: Biophysical


Just a thought for close-combat interested IG commanders: Colonel Straken gives the +1 attack bubble that Priests do, and he's a Company Commander, and he's pretty solid on attack (effectively a 2+ S6 power maul that does 2 wounds). He's about as much as an Eviscerator Priest+Naked Company Commander, and does the job of both. He's also got T4, 5 wounds, and a 3+ save, so he's sticking around longer as well.

Of course, you can stack him with a Priest to double up on the bonus, I think. 3 attack Guardsmen, 4 attack Sgts with power weapons.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 00:13:01


Post by: SonsofVulkan


 Therion wrote:
We have the best troops unit in the entire game, the Tempestus Scions. We also have access to the best elites slot assault unit in the game, the best dedicated transport in the game, and very, very points efficient heavy weaponry from the heavy support (HWT with mortar 9 points total). Our HQ has more synergy with units than almost any other army (Only Tyranids really complete) making them very worthwhile. Our guys are the second most resistant to morale in the entire game (Tyranids again the only army more resistant to morale). Our Fast Attack isn't top tier, but it's far from garbage. Both Hellhounds and Scout Sentinels are decent enough to be used every now and then. We have by far the largest amount of competitive options available to us than anyone else, giving us flexibility.

Yeah, I think we have it pretty good. In fact, the only way from here is down. Astra Militarum is the best army in the game today. It was a long break between the 'Leafblower' days and now, but the humans got to the top again.







The best troops for IG in my opinion are conscript blobs back by a commissar(Yarrick) and a commander for FRSRF. Scions look very good on paper but they def are not the best is only because they are just too fragile and die too quickly. Your list do have a lot of plasmas to deal with veh and monsters, but you need to get into rapid fire range to be effective, Orks and Nids can easily bubble wrap their heavy hitters to prevent you from doing so. Scions are glass-cannons, they hit hard but will die fast. I honestly would recommend you bring at least 1 or 2 conscript blobs to at least secure your home objectives and bubble wrapping your tauroxs in case you don't get first turn against a similar alpha strike army.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 00:32:52


Post by: Humble Guardsman


Scions do work as a cheap deepstrike unit that can pop onto an undefended or I'll-defended remote objective on short notice.

You're not going to really suffer by letting a 60pt unit stay in reserve until Turn 3 (your last turn to deep strike). By that point your opponent has definitely committed his forces. Mentally, your opponent is likely to forget that the Scions are even in play since most people will be doing Turn 1 deep strikes. Or, if they are mindful of the threat, they're likely to overcommitt to their own objectives. It's hard to proportionally counter 60pts, so even then that's a win as your Scions can instead be directed to tip the balance in a contested objective.

To sum up, if you're going light on the Scions then it may serve you better to delay their arrival for as long as possible until your opponents forces are fully committed.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 00:46:22


Post by: SonsofVulkan


 Leth wrote:


From what I hear Orks and Tyranids are at the top. Luckily the imperial guard have the best counters to them.....lots and lots of bullets!!! I really want to caution people to be careful with the all in on scions. That is the 7th edition mindset taking over.



In my opinion Orks will struggle hard against IG, Nids has a better chance of winning. Boyz are not the best troops because each of them cost more than double a conscript (30 Pistol boyz cost 180pts) and don't shoot as good and weaker save. His Scion list has 6 Taurox Primes and 6x3 mortar teams, them alone if combined with Yarrick will easily mow down 2 maybe 3 blobs of 30 Boyz per turn regardless of the mobs rule. On top of that, those boyz are foot slogging and that teleport power can only be used once per turn, it is a huge gamble because that single unit will most likely die immediately next turn.

Nids on the other hand are more effective because the Gaunts are cheaper and much faster. Turn 1 they can bring 3x30 units of Gaunts with 3xTrygons in your face, and that is why I recommended at least a couple units of conscript blobs to hopefully absorb the shock. And Nids got better supporting fire platforms such as Carnifexs and Exocrine.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 01:13:09


Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


 daedalus wrote:
 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
 Polonius wrote:

My concern is that enemy infantry will get cover from anything shooting from behind it. You can just put anti-infantry weapons in the trenches, and the anti-big stuff weapons behind, but I can see a lot of time savvy opponents are going to gain cover from your own shooting.

I think this is a definition issue, if the model is considered to have a front (with the skulls and additional shields) and back facing (with the supplies and ammo boxes), all units on your side would be behind it and all units on the side facing the front would be in front, no matter the perspective of the model.

If it actually gives cover to infantry on both sides then I agree, the fortification would be too expensive for what it provides and too limited in application.


I read it like it goes both ways. "[units] behind it from the point of view of the firing unit receives the benefit of cover" seems pretty universal.


If you read the rules, it states that the units must be both in it and behind it from the point of view of the firing unit. So enemy units will not benefit unless they are in it, but your own units behind but not in the fortification don't either.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 03:17:48


Post by: daedalus


 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:

If you read the rules, it states that the units must be both in it and behind it from the point of view of the firing unit. So enemy units will not benefit unless they are in it, but your own units behind but not in the fortification don't either.


"Infantry units within an Imperial Defence Line, and behind it from the point of view of the firing unit, receive the benefit of cover."

Yeah. Huh. I actually misparsed that as an independent clause and let common sense carry me the rest of the way to not getting it the first time around. So... if a unit is standing where only its shins are covered by the Imperial Defence Line (inside it) you get a cover save. But if you're standing BEHIND it, where most of you is going to be covered up by the walls and the models inside? Nope. Nothing. That's fantastic.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 06:50:14


Post by: gally912


Hey fellas, just a friendly thought from guy on receiving end of some guard today!

Mortar squads are criminally efficient. 6d6 shots that dont need los for ~50 pts just mulched my Skitarii.

Orders felt effective and worthwhile, cycle charges were had against me. (He was valhallan, go figure)

Lascannons did work popping kastelens, Flamer SWS could put the hurt out with surprising speed.

Guard CC had very little to deal with my HQs. Eliminated PF commissar and then it was just some guardsmen needing 5/6's to wound and a 2+ save to deal with. Both my TPD and Cawl survived till end of game against 4+ guard squads)

Just some thoughts!


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 12:38:34


Post by: labmouse42


Last night I ran a friendly game with a friend using the following.
Spoiler:
Tempestor Prime
Tempestor Prime
Lord Commissar w/Plasma Pistol + Power Sword

Commissar w/Plasma Pistol + Power Sword

LR Executioner w/2 PC
LR Executioner w/2 PC

Scion Squad w/4 PGs
Scion Squad w/4 PGs
Scion Squad w/4 PGs
Scion Squad w/4 PGs

Chimera w/2 HF
Chimera w/2 HF
Chimera w/2 HF
Taurox Prime w/ 2 Volley Guns, Gatling Gun and SB
He brought the following
Spoiler:
Chaos Lord on Jugg
Dark Apostate

10 Bezerkers
10 Bezerkers
20 Cultists
20 Cultists

5 Havocs
5 Havocs

1 Hellbrute
5 Terminators with various combi weapons
It was an educational game. While it was a 'just for fun beer and popcorn game' there were a few things I picked up.
* Chimeras are not as bad as I thought they would be. The fact that they never degrade shooting is pretty nice. One did 2 wounds to the chaos lord when it tried to charge.
* Chimeras are tougher than Taurox'. That 1 point of toughness does matter when getting shot by autocannons.
* Taurox' prime can mow down cultists like it's nobody's business. With the moral test, my taurox killed 18 in one round.
* Terminators deep striking with combi-meltas is nasty.
* The LRBTs were underwhelming. They killed a few terminators, a few havocs but I did not have an 'OMG' moment with them.
* I deep struck a scion squad and opened up a can of Havocs. After rapid firing I killed them all. On the following turn they were charged by bezerkers and wiped out. The counter charge can really hurt.
* Even with commissar support, the scion squads were completely wiped out when assaulted. Be it by a chaos lord, by bezerker squads or whatever. Out of the 4 squads, I lost 3 to assault.
* The lord commissar used a power sword to kill his Chaos Lord who was down to 1 wound. I used to command point to break sequence and was able to kill him before he could swing.
* I used my chimeras to lock bezerkers in assault.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 13:37:27


Post by: NenkotaMoon


Chimera's never were bad, just expensive for what you get. Pretty everything I thought seems to be true.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 13:46:59


Post by: MinscS2


Am I missing something or what is the point of the Deathstrike? It seems really bad for it's cost now (both powerlevel and pointcost).
On average it will once per game deal 5 mortal wounds to it's target, then 1 mortal wound to any unit within 6" (if any), which on it's own isn't that impressive. Then add the fact that it will rarely shoot before turn 4.

As a huge fan of the LR Vanquisher I'm also saddened by the fact that this tank seems inferior to the regular LR BT in pretty much every way, and as a huge fan of melee-oriented blob-guard I'm sad that we can no longer combine plutoons.

Other than that though, I'm a happy general. Can't wait to try out my new and improved Bullgryns and Rough Riders.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 13:53:59


Post by: Blacksails


 labmouse42 wrote:
Spoiler:
Last night I ran a friendly game with a friend using the following.[]Tempestor Prime
Tempestor Prime
Lord Commissar w/Plasma Pistol + Power Sword

Commissar w/Plasma Pistol + Power Sword

LR Executioner w/2 PC
LR Executioner w/2 PC

Scion Squad w/4 PGs
Scion Squad w/4 PGs
Scion Squad w/4 PGs
Scion Squad w/4 PGs

Chimera w/2 HF
Chimera w/2 HF
Chimera w/2 HF
Taurox Prime w/ 2 Volley Guns, Gatling Gun and SB[r]He brought the following]Chaos Lord on Jugg
Dark Apostate

10 Bezerkers
10 Bezerkers
20 Cultists
20 Cultists

5 Havocs
5 Havocs

1 Hellbrute
5 Terminators with various combi weapons[]It was an educational game. While it was a 'just for fun beer and popcorn game' there were a few things I picked up.
* Chimeras are not as bad as I thought they would be. The fact that they never degrade shooting is pretty nice. One did 2 wounds to the chaos lord when it tried to charge.
* Chimeras are tougher than Taurox'. That 1 point of toughness does matter when getting shot by autocannons.
* Taurox' prime can mow down cultists like it's nobody's business. With the moral test, my taurox killed 18 in one round.
* Terminators deep striking with combi-meltas is nasty.
* The LRBTs were underwhelming. They killed a few terminators, a few havocs but I did not have an 'OMG' moment with them.
* I deep struck a scion squad and opened up a can of Havocs. After rapid firing I killed them all. On the following turn they were charged by bezerkers and wiped out. The counter charge can really hurt.
* Even with commissar support, the scion squads were completely wiped out when assaulted. Be it by a chaos lord, by bezerker squads or whatever. Out of the 4 squads, I lost 3 to assault.
* The lord commissar used a power sword to kill his Chaos Lord who was down to 1 wound. I used to command point to break sequence and was able to kill him before he could swing.
* I used my chimeras to lock bezerkers in assault.



How did you find the Russ durability though? It seems like people are generally saying that arty is for damage, but tanks are for staying power. Did they take a beating, or generally just avoided by your opponent?

Did you play with objectives? How was your ability to score?

Thanks for the quick batrep though. Your list seems similar to ideas I've been tossing around for a mech list.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 14:01:31


Post by: NenkotaMoon


 MinscS2 wrote:
Am I missing something or what is the point of the Deathstrike? It seems really bad for it's cost now (both powerlevel and pointcost).
On average it will once per game deal 5 mortal wounds to it's target, then 1 mortal wound to any unit within 6" (if any), which on it's own isn't that impressive. Then add the fact that it will rarely shoot before turn 4.

As a huge fan of the LR Vanquisher I'm also saddened by the fact that this tank seems inferior to the regular LR BT in pretty much every way, and as a huge fan of melee-oriented blob-guard I'm sad that we can no longer combine plutoons.

Other than that though, I'm a happy general. Can't wait to try out my new and improved Bullgryns and Rough Riders.


Really for 8E, it is either Conscript gak shooting blobs or suicide scions. Maybe some flamers to counter and artillery (including mortars), everything else is not that good. Mech suck, Tank suck, Guard blob non-existent. I know weren't top tier with that besides the mass of decent tanks, but jeez, not much variety in lists.

Personally I want to see some Rough Riders.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 14:24:01


Post by: daedalus


 NenkotaMoon wrote:

Really for 8E, it is either Conscript gak shooting blobs or suicide scions. Maybe some flamers to counter and artillery (including mortars), everything else is not that good. Mech suck, Tank suck, Guard blob non-existent. I know weren't top tier with that besides the mass of decent tanks, but jeez, not much variety in lists.

Welp, meta declared before the edition is released.

Seriously though, I think it's going to be far more interesting than that. Give it some time.


Personally I want to see some Rough Riders.

I completely agree with this. Hopefully they'll put out some models in the next decade or so.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 14:31:59


Post by: NenkotaMoon


 daedalus wrote:
 NenkotaMoon wrote:

Really for 8E, it is either Conscript gak shooting blobs or suicide scions. Maybe some flamers to counter and artillery (including mortars), everything else is not that good. Mech suck, Tank suck, Guard blob non-existent. I know weren't top tier with that besides the mass of decent tanks, but jeez, not much variety in lists.

Welp, meta declared before the edition is released.

Seriously though, I think it's going to be far more interesting than that. Give it some time.


Personally I want to see some Rough Riders.

I completely agree with this. Hopefully they'll put out some models in the next decade or so.


It's already released technically. I can look at a whole damned book at my local FLGS, playing with the rules already provided. I just can't buy the book.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 14:39:18


Post by: Twoshoes23


Can ratlings really "run" away from a charge? Their rule shoot and scarper says they can move as if in the movement phase after making a Shooting attack, i know it sounds obvious, but does Overwatch count as a shooting attack technically in the rules?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 14:39:26


Post by: Leth


You are all not seeing the big picture. Play a few games against a variety of opponents and you will see that spam is not going to win you all of the games. The number and types of targets are too vast for anything really to take advantage of being spammed. Many things are now more appropriately points costed in the context of the game rules now. One of the reasons that I caution so much against the scion drop is this: It will work once, maybe twice on each opponent. Then they will read the rules, learn how to stop it and now you have invested a bunch into a strategy that is not reliable from game to game.

With the extent that we can bubble wrap, how durable things are, and the returns of hordes will require people to adjust how they think and approach the game and specific units in general.

I think one thing that would be good is to sort of break things into general categories and identify the types of units they are good against. Honestly now that we dont really have slot restrictions we can do it on a per point basis.

Personally I think Mortar heavy weapon teams, 1-2 units of conscripts, 2-3 units of scions, and a bunch of officers will for a solid basis for any IG list.

2x mortar HWT - 54
1x50 conscript - 150
2x Scions - Plasma - 132
Scion Officer - 30ish
2x commisar - 80 ish
2x senior commander - 60

All of that is 560ish points, leaving nearly 3/4ths of your remaining army to adjust based on your desires. I am currently a fan of cmd teams with two snipers and a lascannon. For 48 points you get some random sniper shots and a lascannon shot. For every two you take a company commander, I mean two orders for 30 points? Crazy cheap so 63 points gets you 2 bs 3+ sniper shots re-rolling ones, and a lascannon re-rolling ones, all with 36+ range. Pretty solid IMO. Add in some 27 point mortar heavy weapon teams and you can deal with a bunch of units while also having a lot of models on the table. This allows plenty of space to invest in more expensive models while still covering your bases. I think that assassins have a lot to offer the standard IG army. At their price point it seems like a no brainer to take some eversors or vindicares. Dont drop them on the first turn. Wait till they either have an opportune target or the third turn. Either way their strength is in forcing your opponent to limit his movement and maintain a bubble wrap while they are in reserve. That is the main strength of reserves IMO, not for the damage they can do, but for how they force your opponent to limit their movement and play to the mission objectives.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 14:48:11


Post by: labmouse42


 Blacksails wrote:
How did you find the Russ durability though? It seems like people are generally saying that arty is for damage, but tanks are for staying power. Did they take a beating, or generally just avoided by your opponent?
They were able to take 4 combi-meltas to the face, then a chainfist terminator hitting the side and it was not wrecked (though it did lose 9 wounds)
The T8 really helped in this case, as it was being wounded on a 4+ vs a 3+. That same firepower was a lot more dangerous to the chimeras/taurox.

 Blacksails wrote:
Did you play with objectives? How was your ability to score?
He did not want to play objectives as it was his first 8th edition game. I think objectives would have been fairly easy to get.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 15:04:58


Post by: RegulusBlack


The Scions/Scripts is essentially my list with Sisters (Celestine and Priests) as support.
Yarrick to reroll (all) to hit 1’s
Straken and priests for 3 attack Script squads,
Celestine and Eversor for melee madness
Scions with (Optimus) Primes to deal with specialty units, (4x Rapid fire plasma is gross)
Rough riders (objective seizure) and Heavy Bolter guns to round out the list
13 CP’s at 2k points with 3 named characters

I like the Taurox firepower (but for essentially a similar cost) I can have bullet sponge Scripts that deal nearly the same amount of damage. 4 wounds to T8 tanks (+3 save) or 8 in Rapid fire (with FRFSRF) with a 150 point blob. Plus they have a ++6.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 15:19:02


Post by: ross-128


Conscripts and drop scions definitely won't carry a list by themselves.

Well, conscripts might if you have over 500 of them, but nobody's got time for that so you'll never see that list in a real game. That's entirely a theoryhammer list, as fun as it is.

They are just very strong tools in the toolbox. Conscripts are a good way to get ablative wounds, board control and charge defense. Drop scions are good assassins (but actual assassins are also good assassins now).

It seems like the main takeaway for Guard players is that as long as you have a solid foundation of infantry and/or conscripts, lasguns will be sufficient to take care of opposing light infantry hordes. We have quite a few different options for taking care of enemy vehicles and heavy infantry, though.

Heavy weapons squads are dirt-cheap and can use Orders, but they're fragile. Probably best for mortars that can hide out of LoS while being a minimal loss if they die, or heavy bolters that aren't much of a loss when they die.

Heavy weapon teams integrated into an infantry blob are a bit more expensive due to how the infantry squad rules are written, but they do benefit from the protection of their squad. This is probably where you'll want to put pricey stuff like lascannons, missile launchers, and autocannons, so the infantry squad can keep them alive.

Manticores and Basilisks are good artillery options. A good deal more expensive than sticking a lascannon in an infantry squad, but they do force an enemy to use expensive anti-tank weapons to counter them and they can be repaired by a techpriest. They also bring a heavy bolter and heavy stubber to the party to help improve their hull:weapon ratio. Manticores bring the better firepower-per-point between the two, but Basilisks can form squadrons so you can bring more of them if you have a large budget. Basilisks are also cheaper per model, so on the tight budget end you can also use them to free up points at the cost of firepower. So basically Basilisks fit into large and small budgets, with Manticores covering mid-size budgets.

Hellhounds are pretty much purely for dealing with heavy infantry, though the inferno cannon can pull some light anti-vehicle duty thanks to doing two damage per wound. Hellhounds are very good at their job.

With the Vendetta returning as a FW model, the Vendetta will likely be very expensive (its weapons alone will run 120 points), but an exceedingly good tankbuster. On the one hand all your eggs will be in one basket, but on the other hand it'll probably only need one turn (of sitting still in hover mode, unless FW gives it a way to counter the movement penalty) to turn the enemy's basket into a smoking crater. Unless it gets the Exterminator treatment and they just take away its Twin Linked.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 15:27:40


Post by: daedalus


Going back to assassins, I think the Vindicare is good. Easily 80 points good. Maybe even take two for that price good.

He's a character, which radically increases his survival rate. He wounds most characters 50% of the time or better, ignores cover, denies invul saves, and can do a D3 (or D6!) damage from a successful shot.

Sure, they're not taking down Rowboat, but two have a reasonable possibility of having a character evaporate by round two or three, and unlike scions, you can't deepstrike screen for that stuff. It's a "get in the opponent's head" kind of character. I like that. I like that a lot.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 15:29:48


Post by: Leth


 daedalus wrote:
Going back to assassins, I think the Vindicare is good. Easily 80 points good. Maybe even take two for that price good.

He's a character, which radically increases his survival rate. He wounds most characters 50% of the time or better, ignores cover, denies invul saves, and can do a D3 (or D6!) damage from a successful shot.

Sure, they're not taking down Rowboat, but two have a reasonable possibility of having a character evaporate by round two or three, and unlike scions, you can't deepstrike screen for that stuff. It's a "get in the opponent's head" kind of character. I like that. I like that a lot.


Just remember he is limited by the infantry keyword as I learned against TAU which I am guessing most monstrous creatures wont have either. So he is pretty strong, but his target selection can be limited.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 15:33:51


Post by: daedalus


 Leth wrote:


Just remember he is limited by the infantry keyword as I learned against TAU which I am guessing most monstrous creatures wont have either. So he is pretty strong, but his target selection can be limited.


Honestly, I don't consider that to be that much of a limitation for everything else you get. Even a 4+ to wound is pretty good for everything else that comes along with him.

Of course, I may always change my mind once I put him in a game or two.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 15:37:18


Post by: Trickstick


 Twoshoes23 wrote:
Can ratlings really "run" away from a charge? Their rule shoot and scarper says they can move as if in the movement phase after making a Shooting attack, i know it sounds obvious, but does Overwatch count as a shooting attack technically in the rules?


Overwatch rule, page 182: "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack... and uses all the normal rules except a 6 is always required..."

Shoot Sharp and Scarper: "Immediately after making a Shooting attack..."

So overwatch is a normal shooting attack, and Ratlings can move after a shooting attack. It sort of suits the idea of scarpering too!


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 15:37:35


Post by: ross-128


He's definitely highly specialized. He has one job, and he's got a good union. He kills characters.

The good news about him being limited to the infantry keyword, is that anything that doesn't have the infantry keyword can be taken out with ordinary heavy weapons. So as long as you have him in a well-balanced list, his one job is also conveniently the only thing you need him for.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 15:40:52


Post by: Leth


 ross-128 wrote:
He's definitely highly specialized. He has one job, and he's got a good union. He kills characters.

The good news about him being limited to the infantry keyword, is that anything that doesn't have the infantry keyword can be taken out with ordinary heavy weapons. So as long as you have him in a well-balanced list, his one job is also conveniently the only thing you need him for.


Yep, but we have to remember that there are lots of things that are characters but not infantry and so to think about that within your lists. Durable things like daemon princes and tyranid monstrous creatures that he will be wounding on 5's. We also have to prepare for things like seeker missiles and destroyer missiles that do flat mortal wounds. While few in number they can be deadly with the right combination of marker lights and hitting bonuses.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 15:44:28


Post by: ross-128


 Leth wrote:
 ross-128 wrote:
He's definitely highly specialized. He has one job, and he's got a good union. He kills characters.

The good news about him being limited to the infantry keyword, is that anything that doesn't have the infantry keyword can be taken out with ordinary heavy weapons. So as long as you have him in a well-balanced list, his one job is also conveniently the only thing you need him for.


Yep, but we have to remember that there are lots of things that are characters but not infantry and so to think about that within your lists. Durable things like daemon princes and tyranid monstrous creatures that he will be wounding on 5's


Yeah, but non-infantry characters don't benefit from the Character screening rule. Like I said, you can target those with ordinary heavy weapons.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 15:47:15


Post by: Leth


 ross-128 wrote:
 Leth wrote:
 ross-128 wrote:
He's definitely highly specialized. He has one job, and he's got a good union. He kills characters.

The good news about him being limited to the infantry keyword, is that anything that doesn't have the infantry keyword can be taken out with ordinary heavy weapons. So as long as you have him in a well-balanced list, his one job is also conveniently the only thing you need him for.


Yep, but we have to remember that there are lots of things that are characters but not infantry and so to think about that within your lists. Durable things like daemon princes and tyranid monstrous creatures that he will be wounding on 5's


Yeah, but non-infantry characters don't benefit from the Character screening rule. Like I said, you can target those with ordinary heavy weapons.


Character rules make no mention of infantry, only that they be characters without a wound characteristic of 10 or more


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 17:00:15


Post by: NenkotaMoon


 ross-128 wrote:
.Heavy weapon teams integrated into an infantry blob are a bit more expensive due to how the infantry squad rules are written, but they do benefit from the protection of their squad. This is probably where you'll want to put pricey stuff like lascannons, missile launchers, and autocannons, so the infantry squad can keep them alive.


You can't blob regular squads anymore, you can only have 10 man squads.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 20:08:01


Post by: Ragnar Blackmane


 ross-128 wrote:
 Leth wrote:
 ross-128 wrote:
He's definitely highly specialized. He has one job, and he's got a good union. He kills characters.

The good news about him being limited to the infantry keyword, is that anything that doesn't have the infantry keyword can be taken out with ordinary heavy weapons. So as long as you have him in a well-balanced list, his one job is also conveniently the only thing you need him for.


Yep, but we have to remember that there are lots of things that are characters but not infantry and so to think about that within your lists. Durable things like daemon princes and tyranid monstrous creatures that he will be wounding on 5's


Yeah, but non-infantry characters don't benefit from the Character screening rule. Like I said, you can target those with ordinary heavy weapons.

Characters with jump packs in a jump pack unit. Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf in a Thunderwolf unit. Crisis suit Commander sitting in a Crisis suit unit. Any support character with jump packs or sitting on a bike hiding in/behind a jump pack/bike unit. You'll wound all of those on a 4+, 3+ if you are lucky (if the target is T4 as you got S5 on the Exitus rifle). And they all profit from being screened by abovementioned units.

Just something to consider when you decide between a Vindicare and almost 13 Rattlings (91 points) who hit on 3+ with S4 and D1 and have their own tricks.
And that's coming from someone who loves his Vindicare and will definitely put him on the table regularly ;-).
I wouldn't use more than one in any case.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 20:46:07


Post by: Leth


Spoiler:
 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
 ross-128 wrote:
 Leth wrote:
 ross-128 wrote:
He's definitely highly specialized. He has one job, and he's got a good union. He kills characters.

The good news about him being limited to the infantry keyword, is that anything that doesn't have the infantry keyword can be taken out with ordinary heavy weapons. So as long as you have him in a well-balanced list, his one job is also conveniently the only thing you need him for.


Yep, but we have to remember that there are lots of things that are characters but not infantry and so to think about that within your lists. Durable things like daemon princes and tyranid monstrous creatures that he will be wounding on 5's


Yeah, but non-infantry characters don't benefit from the Character screening rule. Like I said, you can target those with ordinary heavy weapons.

Characters with jump packs in a jump pack unit. Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf in a Thunderwolf unit. Crisis suit Commander sitting in a Crisis suit unit. Any support character with jump packs or sitting on a bike hiding in/behind a jump pack/bike unit. You'll wound all of those on a 4+, 3+ if you are lucky (if the target is T4 as you got S5 on the Exitus rifle). And they all profit from being screened by abovementioned units.

Just something to consider when you decide between a Vindicare and almost 13 Rattlings (91 points) who hit on 3+ with S4 and D1 and have their own tricks.
And that's coming from someone who loves his Vindicare and will definitely put him on the table regularly ;-).
I wouldn't use more than one in any case.


It doesnt matter because his initial premise is incorrect. Character protection applys to any character that is sub 10 wounds, regardless of infantry or other such things.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 21:10:42


Post by: ross-128


Well, that's annoying. Of course Tau would have non-infantry characters with less than 10 wounds. Tau seem to always find a way to be an exception to every rule.

Though it doesn't really make sense that jump infantry would not be considered infantry.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 22:21:05


Post by: xmbk


Overwatch is resolved like a shooting attack, but it is not a Shooting attack, it is Overwatch. I would not use Scamper without a ruling. Last thing I want is cheesy ratlings.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 22:41:27


Post by: Twoshoes23


xmbk wrote:
Overwatch is resolved like a shooting attack, but it is not a Shooting attack, it is Overwatch. I would not use Scamper without a ruling. Last thing I want is cheesy ratlings.


I agree with you that i'm on the fence as to if this is rules as intended. That said, who charges ratlings??? I think this rule, if it remains as is, is great for ratlings in general. They are so flimsy.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 22:46:54


Post by: Trickstick


 Twoshoes23 wrote:
xmbk wrote:
Overwatch is resolved like a shooting attack, but it is not a Shooting attack, it is Overwatch. I would not use Scamper without a ruling. Last thing I want is cheesy ratlings.


I agree with you that i'm on the fence as to if this is rules as intended. That said, who charges ratlings??? I think this rule, if it remains as is, is great for ratlings in general. They are so flimsy.


I view it as really fluffy too. Those little halflings are nimble and tricksy, and definitely sensible enough to do a tactical relocation in the face of impending Genestealers. Best cooks in the Guard too, just don't ask where they got the ingredients from.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 23:21:14


Post by: Aesthete


 Trickstick wrote:

I view it as really fluffy too. Those little halflings are nimble and tricksy, and definitely sensible enough to do a tactical relocation in the face of impending Genestealers. Best cooks in the Guard too, just don't ask where they got the ingredients from.


"It only seems fair we fry up one of them Teeranits and give 'em a go, innit? Turnaround and all that."

"Right you are. They'd eat us if we gave 'em half a chance."

"Better them than us, I say" [takes bite] "Hm. Not bad... what do you reckon?"

"Hmm... not bad at all. Somewhere between chicken and shrimp."

"Right you are. Fancy another drumstick? The bugger's got like eight of them."

[Pours a drink] "To the Teeranits, the tastiest of space-shrimp-chickens!"



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 23:28:53


Post by: Trickstick


I was more thinking that they stole all the best stuff from the quartermaster.

Also, I was reading my old Codex the other day. A Ratling had the honour of the first Imperial kill of an Ethereal. Don't forget to rub that in those Tau noses. Or weird face holes. Whatever Xenos filth they have.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/07 23:52:58


Post by: Cothonian


Spoiler:
 Aesthete wrote:
 Trickstick wrote:

I view it as really fluffy too. Those little halflings are nimble and tricksy, and definitely sensible enough to do a tactical relocation in the face of impending Genestealers. Best cooks in the Guard too, just don't ask where they got the ingredients from.


"It only seems fair we fry up one of them Teeranits and give 'em a go, innit? Turnaround and all that."

"Right you are. They'd eat us if we gave 'em half a chance."

"Better them than us, I say" [takes bite] "Hm. Not bad... what do you reckon?"

"Hmm... not bad at all. Somewhere between chicken and shrimp."

"Right you are. Fancy another drumstick? The bugger's got like eight of them."

[Pours a drink] "To the Teeranits, the tastiest of space-shrimp-chickens!"



First off, +1!

Moving along... What do you gents think of the new Regimental Standards? If I remember correctly, in the new rules they just grant a +1 to the leadership values of surrounding units.

I really liked using them in the previous edition, looked great thematically and provided a great boost to a horde stationed in an Aegis. I'll have to double check the points cost, but I'm not really feeling them for 8th.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 00:00:27


Post by: Trickstick


 Cothonian wrote:
Moving along... What do you gents think of the new Regimental Standards?


I used to like them too. Unfortunately, they have gone the way of the old Platoon Standard and are useless. Even if they were free, you are giving up a valuable vox/medic/weapon slot for little gain. Which is a shame, as I really liked the visuals they gave. Well, I'll just have to make do with my tank commander banners.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 00:46:54


Post by: Razerous


How about lots and lots of flamers?

Where flamers start not to become viable, add in very heavy weaponry.

Who needs to roll to hit?

What is fast enough / cheap enough to make this idea valid, curiously? Hopefully it is IG/AM related?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 01:31:01


Post by: Blacksails


So Unit1126PLL (I think I got that right) just pointed in the other big IG thread in GD that the Baneblade chassis units are pretty awesome because of their oddly effective assault and overwatch properties.

I've always had a soft spot for the Shadowsword, so this might end up being my excuse to get one (though I'd love to get the old FW Arkurian pattern one) or two.

They're all roughly three times the cost of a decently equipped Russ, but have over twice the wounds and some pretty killy weaponry, and are somehow pretty good in close combat.

Definitely something I glossed over but now seriously considering.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 01:38:27


Post by: Peregrine


 Blacksails wrote:
So Unit1126PLL (I think I got that right) just pointed in the other big IG thread in GD that the Baneblade chassis units are pretty awesome because of their oddly effective assault and overwatch properties.


Wow, got to love 8th edition, where IG are all about the melee Baneblades...


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 01:44:48


Post by: Sincollector


 Blacksails wrote:
So Unit1126PLL (I think I got that right) just pointed in the other big IG thread in GD that the Baneblade chassis units are pretty awesome because of their oddly effective assault and overwatch properties.

I've always had a soft spot for the Shadowsword, so this might end up being my excuse to get one (though I'd love to get the old FW Arkurian pattern one) or two.

They're all roughly three times the cost of a decently equipped Russ, but have over twice the wounds and some pretty killy weaponry, and are somehow pretty good in close combat.

Definitely something I glossed over but now seriously considering.


I think the Stormlord and Shadowsword both look pretty good. The Stormlord can be taken as one of the cheapest options and has the most versatile main gun. You could pack it with eighteen mortar teams plus a Command squad with your choice of two more weapons to make it the greatest dakka pillbox in the game.

And the Shadowsword has a pretty decent chance to remove an enemy vehicle or monster every turn.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 02:34:20


Post by: NenkotaMoon


Probs the biggest and one of the few good things coming for 8E IG, Melee and Extreme Dakka Baneblades.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 02:55:52


Post by: Alcibiades


I think people are misconceptualizing the Leman Russ.

Previously, 40K was very offense-loaded. You had all these weapons capable of one-shotting vehicles, critters, and infantry squads. These weapons don't exist anymore, It's more durability now, and ability to do damage over time.

The LR turret weapon is one heavy weapon out of (usually) 4. It's supposed to be used in conjunction with them, not to be the point of the tank itself, and it's not supposed to be vastly superior to them, only somewhat. (Which it generally is -- the BC is superior against armor than a lascannon and superior to an HB against infantry, for instance.)

The Russ is not a giant cannon. It is, in effect, four (usually) heavy-weapons teams that are immune to Morale, are T8, are fully mobile, and have a 3+ armo(u)r save. It should be viewed in that light.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 MinscS2 wrote:
Am I missing something or what is the point of the Deathstrike? It seems really bad for it's cost now (both powerlevel and pointcost).
On average it will once per game deal 5 mortal wounds to it's target, then 1 mortal wound to any unit within 6" (if any), which on it's own isn't that impressive. Then add the fact that it will rarely shoot before turn 4.

As a huge fan of the LR Vanquisher I'm also saddened by the fact that this tank seems inferior to the regular LR BT in pretty much every way, and as a huge fan of melee-oriented blob-guard I'm sad that we can no longer combine plutoons.

Other than that though, I'm a happy general. Can't wait to try out my new and improved Bullgryns and Rough Riders.


I have a hunch that the S8 in the Vanquisher BC is supposed to be T9, since that's what the Genestealer Cult one has and is what would make it superior to a lascannon (see my point above).


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 03:16:31


Post by: Peregrine


Alcibiades wrote:
The LR turret weapon is one heavy weapon out of (usually) 4. It's supposed to be used in conjunction with them, not to be the point of the tank itself, and it's not supposed to be vastly superior to them, only somewhat. (Which it generally is -- the BC is superior against armor than a lascannon and superior to an HB against infantry, for instance.)


This might be ok rules-wise, but it's really stupid fluff-wise. Just look at the size of the main gun relative to the secondary weapons, and tell me that it's reasonable for such a massive weapon to be roughly equivalent in power to its sponson guns.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 03:26:22


Post by: ross-128


Technically, fluff-wise the LRBT main gun is 120mm. Which means it actually shouldn't be that huge, that's just GW modeling for you. It's a modern MBT cannon.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 03:35:48


Post by: Alcibiades


 Peregrine wrote:
Alcibiades wrote:
The LR turret weapon is one heavy weapon out of (usually) 4. It's supposed to be used in conjunction with them, not to be the point of the tank itself, and it's not supposed to be vastly superior to them, only somewhat. (Which it generally is -- the BC is superior against armor than a lascannon and superior to an HB against infantry, for instance.)


This might be ok rules-wise, but it's really stupid fluff-wise. Just look at the size of the main gun relative to the secondary weapons, and tell me that it's reasonable for such a massive weapon to be roughly equivalent in power to its sponson guns.


OK, but it's a general shift in game design. You have the same change across the board. There aren't any great, powerful weapons that blow things off the table.

It's better than the sponson guns. Just not massively so. So the BC is better than a LC against tanks (but not hugely so) and better than an HB against infantry (but not hugely so).


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 03:46:59


Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


Say what you will, I still wish the Leman Russ was a bit more killy. Durability is great and all, but there are enough things that specialize at killing armor that its durability just isn't enough in too many cases. And since it can't pull its weight in the damage category, you're basically hoping to apply your tank against units that can't deal with it effectively over the course of several turns while hiding from enemy AT. Which doesn't seem terribly feasible to me. I think it may have some effectiveness while the meta is still in flux and people are still adjusting to the new rules, but I think its survivability will tank (pun was not intended) as soon as people get things sorted out.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 04:07:50


Post by: Biophysical


 ross-128 wrote:
Technically, fluff-wise the LRBT main gun is 120mm. Which means it actually shouldn't be that huge, that's just GW modeling for you. It's a modern MBT cannon.


Which is still profoundly more powerful than any tank secondary weapon.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 04:35:16


Post by: NenkotaMoon


No, it's a main Battle Tank.......IN SPACE!!!1

Also, Im gonna miss deleting a Chaos Champion in one shoot.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 05:26:41


Post by: SeraphimXIX


Razerous wrote:
How about lots and lots of flamers?

Where flamers start not to become viable, add in very heavy weaponry.

Who needs to roll to hit?

What is fast enough / cheap enough to make this idea valid, curiously? Hopefully it is IG/AM related?
Riding on the coat-tails of this, anyone think it might be worth allying in a Sisters of Silence flamer squad?

200 points gets you 10 flamers, 3+sv and 20 s3 WS3+ attacks in melee.

Conga-lining them across the board seems like an excellent way to deter​ those 1st turn mass charges that nids and orks are quickly making infamous. 10d6 flamer overwatch will shut down genestealers and Boyz pretty hard.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 06:01:57


Post by: Kaeldran


 SeraphimXIX wrote:

200 points gets you 10 flamers, 3+sv and 20 s3 WS3+ attacks in melee.

Conga-lining them across the board seems like an excellent way to deter​ those 1st turn mass charges that nids and orks are quickly making infamous. 10d6 flamer overwatch will shut down genestealers and Boyz pretty hard.


In overwatch, all the weapons get a shot even if in normal fire they wont reach the charging unit?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 07:16:33


Post by: Blightstar


 Kaeldran wrote:
 SeraphimXIX wrote:

200 points gets you 10 flamers, 3+sv and 20 s3 WS3+ attacks in melee.

Conga-lining them across the board seems like an excellent way to deter​ those 1st turn mass charges that nids and orks are quickly making infamous. 10d6 flamer overwatch will shut down genestealers and Boyz pretty hard.


In overwatch, all the weapons get a shot even if in normal fire they wont reach the charging unit?


Nope. You need actually be in range to fire overwatch. So if your options are in charging a Baneblade sporting 4 twin-heavyflamers that you eat 8d6 S5 ap-1 hits or try to make 9" charge you'll probably want to try that 9" charge.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 08:44:29


Post by: Humble Guardsman


Blightstar wrote:
 Kaeldran wrote:
 SeraphimXIX wrote:

200 points gets you 10 flamers, 3+sv and 20 s3 WS3+ attacks in melee.

Conga-lining them across the board seems like an excellent way to deter​ those 1st turn mass charges that nids and orks are quickly making infamous. 10d6 flamer overwatch will shut down genestealers and Boyz pretty hard.


In overwatch, all the weapons get a shot even if in normal fire they wont reach the charging unit?


Nope. You need actually be in range to fire overwatch. So if your options are in charging a Baneblade sporting 4 twin-heavyflamers that you eat 8d6 S5 ap-1 hits or try to make 9" charge you'll probably want to try that 9" charge.


Excellent point you guys raise here. Assault units staying just over 8" from flamer-heavy units before they charge may become quite common.

How many units get something similar to the Eversor Assassin's 3d6 charge rule?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 11:49:48


Post by: Cothonian


Going back to the Regimental Standard, I just checked its points-cost and it's set as 5 points in the new edition. Extremely cheap... still not very useful.

I might include it purely looks at this point


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 11:53:03


Post by: Martel732


 Peregrine wrote:
Alcibiades wrote:
The LR turret weapon is one heavy weapon out of (usually) 4. It's supposed to be used in conjunction with them, not to be the point of the tank itself, and it's not supposed to be vastly superior to them, only somewhat. (Which it generally is -- the BC is superior against armor than a lascannon and superior to an HB against infantry, for instance.)


This might be ok rules-wise, but it's really stupid fluff-wise. Just look at the size of the main gun relative to the secondary weapons, and tell me that it's reasonable for such a massive weapon to be roughly equivalent in power to its sponson guns.


It's still better than the hammerhead railgun spending 3 editions or more causing a single wound to every T6 MC.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 13:07:37


Post by: Leth


Yep!! I am actually glad it is that cheap so I can include it without gimping myself.

Also for the 8 inch over watch. Remember they only need to get within 1 inch. So its an 8 inch charge which is not too difficult.

When flamers are in units also remember that you measure range from the model so if your flamers are not front and center then it is an even shorter range


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 13:25:57


Post by: Polonius


 Cothonian wrote:
Going back to the Regimental Standard, I just checked its points-cost and it's set as 5 points in the new edition. Extremely cheap... still not very useful.

I might include it purely looks at this point


Or... look at it the other way: a command squad with flag, medic, and two bullet catchers is 39pts. The standard basically saves one battleshock casualty from every squad within 6", while the medipack brings back a wound (or model!) on a 4+. It's not great, but that's really cheap for a support unit.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 13:28:34


Post by: Cothonian


I can roll with that.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 13:50:05


Post by: Humble Guardsman


 Polonius wrote:
 Cothonian wrote:
Going back to the Regimental Standard, I just checked its points-cost and it's set as 5 points in the new edition. Extremely cheap... still not very useful.

I might include it purely looks at this point


Or... look at it the other way: a command squad with flag, medic, and two bullet catchers is 39pts. The standard basically saves one battleshock casualty from every squad within 6", while the medipack brings back a wound (or model!) on a 4+. It's not great, but that's really cheap for a support unit.


That's exactly what I'm going with. I was excited to run all-medic squads (from a fluff point of view rather than effectiveness) until I noticed they were limited to one a squad. Still, might model a few of the vets as stretcher bearers and run a medic only command squad regardless.


It's worth keeping in mind that the CCS does grant your commander some protection that you might otherwise forget. I imagine a few guard players will run Company Commanders without them and have a nasty surprise when the infantry squads screening their character get mowed down or otherwise tied up.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 14:31:48


Post by: Leth


Medic, Vox, and heavy weapon team might not be a bad combo for a command squad. Especially since you can keep your officers from the front lines so they can buff units that will die without risking themselves as easily and still add a little fire power.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 15:07:32


Post by: Trickstick


 Leth wrote:
Medic, Vox, and heavy weapon team might not be a bad combo for a command squad. Especially since you can keep your officers from the front lines so they can buff units that will die without risking themselves as easily and still add a little fire power.


Make it a mortar and you can hide them and the commander out of LOS. Now that mortars roll to hit, the bs3+ is pretty nice.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 15:28:39


Post by: basedgigi


Heya yall,
I've been playing a bit of 8e with friends and I wanted to see what yall though of the list I'm running right now

2000 pts, Battleforged
BATTALION DETACHMENT
HQ
Tempestor Prime w/ command rod(40)
Tempestor Prime w/ command rod(40)
Company Commander w/ boltgun(31)

Troop
Tempestus Scionsx5 w/ 2x plasma and plasma pistol (66)
Tempestus Scionsx5 w/ 2x plasma and plasma pistol (66)
Tempestus Scionsx5 w/ 2x plasma and plasma pistol (66)
Tempestus Scionsx5 w/ 2x plasma and plasma pistol (66)
Conscriptsx40 (120)
Infantry Squad w/ plasma(47)

Elite
Eversor Assasin (70)

Heavy Support
Onager Dunecrawler w/ icarus array (130)
Manticore (133)
Manticore (133)

Ded Trans
Dakka Taurox(98)
Dakka Taurox(98)

SPEARHEAD DETACHMENT
HQ
Commissar Yarrick(130)

Heavy Support
Heavy Weapons w/3x mortar(27)
Heavy Weapons w/3x mortar(27)
Heavy Weapons w/3x mortar(27)
Heavy Weapons w/ 2x lascanon and 1x mortar (57)

SUPER HEAVY DETACHMENT
Knight Crusader w/ thermal cannon, gatling cannon, and ironstorm rockets (528)


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 15:59:21


Post by: Humble Guardsman


Leth wrote:Medic, Vox, and heavy weapon team might not be a bad combo for a command squad. Especially since you can keep your officers from the front lines so they can buff units that will die without risking themselves as easily and still add a little fire power.


Trickstick wrote:
 Leth wrote:
Medic, Vox, and heavy weapon team might not be a bad combo for a command squad. Especially since you can keep your officers from the front lines so they can buff units that will die without risking themselves as easily and still add a little fire power.


Make it a mortar and you can hide them and the commander out of LOS. Now that mortars roll to hit, the bs3+ is pretty nice.


A good idea if you're going to run a vox for your CC (Astra Militarum? Please, this edition will be Mortar Militarum). But is a vox really worth it?

18" means your Company Commander will probably still have to be moving up if you're advancing up the field with your infantry, and for the price of half a dozen vox-casters you can easily net yourself another Company Commander.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 16:12:56


Post by: daedalus


That looks pretty close to what people think the meta is geared toward. Scions/Conscripts as a core.

You don't have much long range anti tank. By that, I mean that I'm not as impressed with the manticore as some people are. I think better AP is going to be more important than better Strength. That might just be me. You might want another commissar to babysit the HWS squads. I dunno if it'd be worth it though.


I haven't played yet, but the first list I'm running (probably next weekend) is going to be:

(Batallion, 1500 pts)

Company Commander
Company Commander
Tempestor Prime
Primaris Psyker

Priest (eviscerator)
Priest (eviscerator)
Commissar (power fist/bolt pistol)
Commissar (power fist/bolt pistol)
Ratlings x 5
Ratlings x 5
Scion Command squad (medipack, 2 x melta)
MoO

Infantry (plasma gun, power sword)
Infantry (plasma gun, power sword)
Infantry (plasma gun, power sword)
Infantry (plasma gun, power sword)
Scions (2 x plasmagun) x 5
Scions (2 x plasmagun) x 5

Hellhound x 3

HWS (3 x Lascannon)
HWS (3 x Lascannon)
HWS (3 x Lascannon)
Basilisk x 2

Leaves me with 25 pts unless I forgot a hidden weapon in there somewhere. I may turn that into a few extra pistol upgrades and power swords.

Hmm. I can't remember if I added the hull weapon onto the Hellounds and basilisks. While I'm at it, I can't remember if I paid for the hotshot lasguns either. This edition is going to be the death of me.

Okay. This is silly. When I get a chance, I'm going to modify my sheet with a column for "Minimum wargear cost" for each unit.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 16:28:41


Post by: basedgigi


Commisars dont actually benefit heavy weapon squads at all, if they would benefit from the blamming the unit is lost anyways because its only 3 models


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 16:40:30


Post by: Humble Guardsman


That makes it one of the few areas a regimental flag will actually have an advantage over a Commissar, albeit a very minor one. Personally I wouldn't bother.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 16:47:35


Post by: Trickstick


 Humble Guardsman wrote:
That makes it one of the few areas a regimental flag will actually have an advantage over a Commissar, albeit a very minor one. Personally I wouldn't bother.


As Guard, you always have to ask yourself "is more guns better than this?" before spending points on upgrades. For instance, would getting another squad of bodies be better than getting an officer? Most of the time getting more models and guns is the better choice.

I'm off to find where I put the stormbolters for my Hellhounds...


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 17:19:48


Post by: Kaiyanwang


 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
Say what you will, I still wish the Leman Russ was a bit more killy.


I think that all the older large blasts (yes Riptide included, don't lynch me!) should be 2d6, drop lower.
Is easy to implement and makes the weapon a tad bit more reliable.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 17:20:57


Post by: Coyote81


Random thought as I was wondering if you could build a AM melee squad on the cheap and effective. This is the only thing i came up with, and it's not on the cheap.

Valkyrie transport
Colonel Iron hand Straken
Ministrum priest
10x Platoon Commanders with Power Maul

You get 5 attacks per model, 3+ to hit, S5 usually will be 3+ to wound, and every model has an invulnerable save.
After initial rounds of combat, they can issue themselves the orders to fight in the shooting phase.

519pts total, wow I completely ignored the cheap part.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 17:26:22


Post by: Martel732


 Kaiyanwang wrote:
 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
Say what you will, I still wish the Leman Russ was a bit more killy.


I think that all the older large blasts (yes Riptide included, don't lynch me!) should be 2d6, drop lower.
Is easy to implement and makes the weapon a tad bit more reliable.


Maybe they will be errataed in the future. They did state they are open to this.
As it is, I would focus on the cannon not turning off the other weapon slots. Lascannon/ MM X 2 is a bit horrifying.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 17:34:55


Post by: SeraphimXIX


 Humble Guardsman wrote:
Blightstar wrote:
 Kaeldran wrote:
 SeraphimXIX wrote:

200 points gets you 10 flamers, 3+sv and 20 s3 WS3+ attacks in melee.

Conga-lining them across the board seems like an excellent way to deter​ those 1st turn mass charges that nids and orks are quickly making infamous. 10d6 flamer overwatch will shut down genestealers and Boyz pretty hard.


In overwatch, all the weapons get a shot even if in normal fire they wont reach the charging unit?


Nope. You need actually be in range to fire overwatch. So if your options are in charging a Baneblade sporting 4 twin-heavyflamers that you eat 8d6 S5 ap-1 hits or try to make 9" charge you'll probably want to try that 9" charge.


Excellent point you guys raise here. Assault units staying just over 8" from flamer-heavy units before they charge may become quite common.


I doubt it. If a flamer squad is cowing you into making 9" charges then it's already done its job as a deterrent. An 8" charge has a 42% chance of success for about 95% of units in the game, and if you fail your unit is sitting in the middle of the board doing nothing, 9" away from the enemy army that will move up an inch or two next turn and shoot it off the board anyway.

In most cases you would be better off getting as close as possible and just making the charge. At least whatever models that survive the overwatch will be in combat doing their jobs.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 17:58:33


Post by: Humble Guardsman


The ability to spend a CP to re-roll one of the charge dice may make it more viable, but yes I agree. Few people aside from IG players will have that kind of CP to freely spend.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 18:07:15


Post by: Kaiyanwang


Martel732 wrote:
 Kaiyanwang wrote:
 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
Say what you will, I still wish the Leman Russ was a bit more killy.


I think that all the older large blasts (yes Riptide included, don't lynch me!) should be 2d6, drop lower.
Is easy to implement and makes the weapon a tad bit more reliable.


Maybe they will be errataed in the future. They did state they are open to this.
As it is, I would focus on the cannon not turning off the other weapon slots. Lascannon/ MM X 2 is a bit horrifying.


The FW one could have 3 laser and 2 melta. It can be costly but Russes are not one-shotted easily anymore.
Imagine a Tank Commander or Pask with this one.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 18:26:47


Post by: Aesthete


Yeah, I'm thinking Pask in a fully kitted out Russ of some sort may be pretty good value - he hits on 2+ and can give himself orders to reroll ones.

I have him at 239 points in a Plasma Russ with Plasma sponsons and Hvy. Bolter and Hvy. Stubber.

Rerollable 2+ seems pretty good for laying down some damage.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 19:27:33


Post by: Trickstick


 Kaiyanwang wrote:
The FW one could have 3 laser and 2 melta. It can be costly but Russes are not one-shotted easily anymore.
Imagine a Tank Commander or Pask with this one.


With the way datasheets work, I doubt that Pask can take an annihilator. Maybe get a regular commander though.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 19:34:24


Post by: Humble Guardsman


This talk of flamers and charging has got me thinking. At what point do you guys think players won't even bother trying to charge on 2d6"? If they're facing significant overwatch, will more players forgo attempting a 12", 11" or even 10" charge?

Obviously it depends on the units involved, but let's assume it's a melee focused unit eyeing up a healthy shooting focused squad that would do some serious damage to the charger if they were firing at normal BS.

1) Will people try it regardless because they'll likely be copping that full BS shooting in the next turn anyway?

2) Is it a valid tactic to move your shooty squads into just within 11-12" change range (after the nearest enemy unit moves towards you) to get off a free overwatch if/when they attempt that long-shot charge?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 19:54:21


Post by: Leth


 Humble Guardsman wrote:
This talk of flamers and charging has got me thinking. At what point do you guys think players won't even bother trying to charge on 2d6"? If they're facing significant overwatch, will more players forgo attempting a 12", 11" or even 10" charge?

Obviously it depends on the units involved, but let's assume it's a melee focused unit eyeing up a healthy shooting focused squad that would do some serious damage to the charger if they were firing at normal BS.

1) Will people try it regardless because they'll likely be copping that full BS shooting in the next turn anyway?

2) Is it a valid tactic to move your shooty squads into just within 11-12" change range (after the nearest enemy unit moves towards you) to get off a free overwatch if/when they attempt that long-shot charge?


Honestly if I was a charging enemy I would just throw a vehicle in first to eat the overwatch.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 20:45:49


Post by: Otto Weston


I'm really worried for my army in 8th edition.
From what I've seen so far - my army has been literally fethed over.

I ran Carapace Armoured, Camo Cloaked, Plasma gun toting Veterans for 5 troop slots...... none of which translates to 8th so far.

Then I have a platoon currently (1 troop slot in 7th) that'll become 2 elites (Platoon Commander + Special Weapon Squad), 3 heavy support (3 Heavy Weapon Teams) and 2 troop slots (2 IG squads) in 8th...... 1 slot became 7 slots.

To cap it off, my Fortress (which currently held 4 units internally and benefited from BS from the units I put in) can only hold 1 unit + characters and never benefits from their BS -> meaning the Fortress becomes literally useless when it's at 1/3rd health.

:( I hope the Codex fixes some of my issues with 8th because I really wanted to play it after seeing the rules changes but the army specific changes fethed me over.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 20:49:36


Post by: Trickstick


 Otto Weston wrote:
I ran Carapace Armoured, Camo Cloaked, Plasma gun toting Veterans for 5 troop slots...... none of which translates to 8th so far.


That sounds like you could easily use them as Scions. Just fluff it as an infiltrating regiment, so instead of airdropping they are popping up out of their hiding spaces. It's not like they have to be Scions in fluff.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 21:03:11


Post by: daedalus


Yeah, I've got a similar problem to that. I have Kasrkin, actual Scion models, and some Cadians decked out in third party bits and greenstuffed armor for Carapace. So now I have three different types of models for Scions. I'd like to have one. I guess I'm going to have to ebay some of it or something.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 22:23:01


Post by: Humble Guardsman


 Trickstick wrote:
 Otto Weston wrote:
I ran Carapace Armoured, Camo Cloaked, Plasma gun toting Veterans for 5 troop slots...... none of which translates to 8th so far.


That sounds like you could easily use them as Scions. Just fluff it as an infiltrating regiment, so instead of airdropping they are popping up out of their hiding spaces. It's not like they have to be Scions in fluff.


That's a good way to do it. And Camo-Cloak guardsmen would have the same suitability anyway. Instead of Carapace you've got Flak and the cover of concealed positions. Instead of hot-shots you've got crack-shots good enough to find the chinks in armour with lasguns.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 22:32:43


Post by: Kaiyanwang


 Trickstick wrote:
 Kaiyanwang wrote:
The FW one could have 3 laser and 2 melta. It can be costly but Russes are not one-shotted easily anymore.
Imagine a Tank Commander or Pask with this one.


With the way datasheets work, I doubt that Pask can take an annihilator. Maybe get a regular commander though.


I hope that FW learned something and starts to integrate better its own rules into the main zeitgeist.
If they write them well, DKK could sell like hotcakes.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 22:37:25


Post by: Trickstick


 Kaiyanwang wrote:
If they write them well, DKK could sell like hotcakes.


Nah, I don't think the rules affect dkok sales much. Dkok are such an expenisve range to build armies from that people either love the models and get them, or don't. I think that well written rules may cause some people to run Cadians as Dkok, and lead to a general increase in FW consumption though.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/08 23:00:20


Post by: TzuWu


The more math I do the better Scions look. E.g. if you compare them to Veterans they have very marginally less pts/wound efficiency in an "idealized" scenario with no orders active. With FRFSRF active or Take Aim!+supercharged plasma the Scions come out ahead. And those are in idealized scenarios - it's much harder for the Veterans to get into RF position without taking hits. If you factor in non-RF'd shots for the Veterans they get demolished in efficiency. Face-striking Scions can get into RF range without taking any wounds every time. And this is ignoring other factors like Scions being 4+ Sv instead of 5+, you actually getting a good strategic drop some of the time instead of face dropping them, and the strategic advantage you get by being able to see more of your opponents army on the field before yours.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 01:02:14


Post by: ross-128


Keep in mind that, for hot-shot Scions, deep striking puts them just outside of rapid-fire range (because they're just outside of 9"). So they actually will have to fire single-shot for one turn, take one turn of return fire, then get into rapid-fire next turn.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 01:09:23


Post by: Leth


 Kaiyanwang wrote:
 Trickstick wrote:
 Kaiyanwang wrote:
The FW one could have 3 laser and 2 melta. It can be costly but Russes are not one-shotted easily anymore.
Imagine a Tank Commander or Pask with this one.


With the way datasheets work, I doubt that Pask can take an annihilator. Maybe get a regular commander though.


I hope that FW learned something and starts to integrate better its own rules into the main zeitgeist.
If they write them well, DKK could sell like hotcakes.


I just hope we get decent rules. At least we are no longer gimped by the lack of blobs. Really depends on what they give us.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 01:23:17


Post by: mtcwalker


I'm also hoping for some exciting DKoK / FW rules.

The Mars Pattern Russ is listed in the appendix, and I'm hopeful for a more effective Vanquisher. I would LOVE for beast hunter shells from the ABG to make an appearance but am very skeptical they will.

I'm also very excited to see Taros Squadron rules. I'd imagine they're going to be similar to a scout sentinel. Unfortunately, I think that they're going to suffer the same -1 to shooting and moving, and essentially loose a lot of effectiveness unless armed with the heavy flamer (contemplating switching my two GL Taros to flamers preemptively.

On another note: Valkyries. Does anyone know if I I move exactly 20" without declaring hover jet, and grab-chute, do I not need to test for losing models? This seems to be the case RAW from my perspective. It says: "...but if the Valkyrie moves more than 20" you must roll a d6 for each model disembarking". The move distance of the model is 20"-> 45" so this implies to me I can simply move minimum distance, retain my benefits from Airborne, Supersonic, and Hard to Hit, and not suffer any danger of disembarking.

Also not 100% sure on how the rules for disembarking will work; I thought that models have to disembark BEFORE a transport moves normally... and if thats true, does that mean Grav-Chute sort of bypasses that restriction, but allowing the move first? If so that seems like a nice benefit, for dropping in some nasty surprises...

I'm thinking, move 20", deploy 12" from enemy, unload 2 SWT with 3x plasma each, and shoot... then maybe even drop a eversor right next to them to assault anything thats about to threaten them.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 02:06:13


Post by: NenkotaMoon


Learned something. The Company Commander can get the range extension and all the special stuff for from any vox as long as you are 3" from a unit that has it.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 02:14:27


Post by: Trickstick


 mtcwalker wrote:
(contemplating switching my two GL Taros to flamers preemptively.


Never do this, you may as well just wait. The All Terrain Vehicle rule could easily remove the -1. Unless you are making them switchable, then no harm.

 mtcwalker wrote:
On another note: Valkyries. Does anyone know if I I move exactly 20" without declaring hover jet, and grab-chute, do I not need to test for losing models? This seems to be the case RAW from my perspective. It says: "...but if the Valkyrie moves more than 20" you must roll a d6 for each model disembarking". The move distance of the model is 20"-> 45" so this implies to me I can simply move minimum distance, retain my benefits from Airborne, Supersonic, and Hard to Hit, and not suffer any danger of disembarking.


It is pretty much impossible to move exactly 20". It is annoying that it is not just unavailable in the rules, but you are always going to move slightly more or less than 20".

 mtcwalker wrote:
Also not 100% sure on how the rules for disembarking will work; I thought that models have to disembark BEFORE a transport moves normally... and if thats true, does that mean Grav-Chute sort of bypasses that restriction, but allowing the move first? If so that seems like a nice benefit, for dropping in some nasty surprises...


Yeah, you can move, shoot and charge normally after grav-chute. It is a pretty nice ability.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 09:29:49


Post by: Ragnar Blackmane


 ross-128 wrote:
Keep in mind that, for hot-shot Scions, deep striking puts them just outside of rapid-fire range (because they're just outside of 9"). So they actually will have to fire single-shot for one turn, take one turn of return fire, then get into rapid-fire next turn.

They are ablative wounds more than anything. A 5 men Scion (Command) squad WILL get wiped out by shooting even in cover, while a 10 men squad with a 3+ save and 5 guys to kill before you even get to the plasma troopers (and then you still have the Sarge to sacrifice), quite likely resulting in another turn of full-on plasma carnage. They also hold objectives better (now that number of models is what counts), protect the Tempestor Prime buffing them way better (he can't do anything but hand out orders but he is still 40 points) and if enemies end up within 15" of them (e.g. trying to get into combat) then the hotshot lasguns do turn into quite an asset. And S3 -2AP is still better than boltgun rounds, so they do add some firepower as well even on single-shot (they profit from Take Aim! quite a bit as well, even if not to the extend that FRFSRF would).

It also makes them more flexible in all-comers lists (a full squad of 10 allows you to put them into the gunline if you face assault MEQ armies that WILL rush you) and also a fluffier choice that will see you take less WAAC accusations if you play outside of tournaments.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 12:00:56


Post by: Razerous


Please forgive if this has been discussed already.

However a few things strike me are fantastic with the new codex;
- Wyverns are awesome (Lots of hits/wounds at range. Still a shredder, the wound table has only got better)
- Manticores are really awesome. Happy with 4 shots, given their stat line.
- Hellhounds (and inferno cannons) are great! Decent speed coupled with a long range good damage gun. (Auto hits are the secret win sauce of this edition).
- Independant squadrons, for extremely efficient slot usage, if needed.
-Leman Russ tanks are best for being cheap-as-possible bulwarks. Better firepower elsewhere. Great toughness, mobility. I may even try to paint a small sword or two on the tracks...
-Ratlings = Yes please!
-Troop choice deep-striking Scions (are these still AM or are they a different army?!)
- Really considering trying to fill out a Battalion (the 9 command point version) with a 1500pt list.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 12:46:41


Post by: xmbk


 Humble Guardsman wrote:
The ability to spend a CP to re-roll one of the charge dice may make it more viable, but yes I agree. Few people aside from IG players will have that kind of CP to freely spend.


Most armies will have CP, if they want it. Guard a few more, but most will have what they need.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 12:50:07


Post by: DoomMouse


Celestine seems pretty crazily points efficient and looks like she'd fit in well to an AM army. She could start just behind the front line to buff conscript blobs with a 6+ invuln, then jump out as a counter-assault unit.

For 150pts she's a pretty decent buy - shooting has a heavy flamer, and 6 S7 AP-3 D2 attacks on the charge. She has 7 wounds with a 2+ save, 4+ invuln and gets back up at full health on a 2+ which you can re-roll with command points. For another 50pts you can take a gemini that auto-ressurects every turn too (though their damage output is a bit lacklustre)

Unless we get a codex that massively rewards solely taking astra militarum units then I see no reason not to include her in competitive lists.

Also there may be some 'act of faith' bonuses that I might have missed. If she can use one to get a turn one charge, then so much the better!


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 13:00:44


Post by: Trickstick


A couple of things I thought of:

-Scion command squads with banner could be really useful. You are unlikely to have a Commissar for most places you want to drop and battleshock may be a real problem. Of course, you lose a gun and the extra Scion bodies, but it isn't so much of an instant write off as the regimental standard for normal Guard.

- The hellhound's increased chance of exploding makes it a pretty good suicide unit. Just be careful to keep it outside of 6" if you plan to run 2 of them.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 13:32:11


Post by: Sonobovich


The astropath's psychic barrier power seems bad in an infantry army, but think of it on Pask or a Baneblade, improving the save of the tank to a 2+. Pretty darn good return on a 15 point investment. Is there anything stopping that from stacking with a cover save?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 13:44:33


Post by: Trickstick


 Sonobovich wrote:
Is there anything stopping that from stacking with a cover save?


It stacks.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 13:48:16


Post by: Sonobovich


I haven't actually seen the full rulebooks yet. Is there something that prevents a 1+ save? Or is there something preventing psychic barrier from applying to tanks?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 14:02:22


Post by: Unit1126PLL


Omg I cannot reiterate enough how good Baneblades are. I played Tyranids last night, put my old girls out front, got first-turn charged by Genestealers... and didn't really care. Eventually won combat with the old girls and mopped up.

Being able to shoot whilst immune to enemy shooting is hilarious. Forcing an enemy to fall back or get shot by 18 heavy bolter shots (I was running the classic configuration) and then 9 str 9 -2 d3 damage attacks is hilarious. Running fleeing Genestealers down with a baneblade because they Fell Back is hilarious.

It was a funny game. Genestealers got a first turn charge agains a guard gunline and lost!


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 14:05:03


Post by: Trickstick


 Sonobovich wrote:
I haven't actually seen the full rulebooks yet. Is there something that prevents a 1+ save? Or is there something preventing psychic barrier from applying to tanks?


There is a rule that 1s always fail. Psychic battier can affect any Astra Militarum unit. I actually just noticed that when looking it up, any other army gets far less use out of the Astra Telepathics because they can't get the +1 save.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 14:23:16


Post by: Humble Guardsman


xmbk wrote:
 Humble Guardsman wrote:
The ability to spend a CP to re-roll one of the charge dice may make it more viable, but yes I agree. Few people aside from IG players will have that kind of CP to freely spend.


Most armies will have CP, if they want it. Guard a few more, but most will have what they need.


At the 2000 point mark, sure. Anything much smaller and a lot of armies have to start being really selective to get those CP. For IG players they were going to fill up all those slots anyway.

I've seen non IG players here mention that they've reached 3CP in 1000pts and they think that's good. Every IG player worth his salt should be garnering enough to spend one in every shooting phase and still have enough left over to use on stratagems or seizing the initiative on a whim.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 14:38:36


Post by: KurtAngle2


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Omg I cannot reiterate enough how good Baneblades are. I played Tyranids last night, put my old girls out front, got first-turn charged by Genestealers... and didn't really care. Eventually won combat with the old girls and mopped up.

Being able to shoot whilst immune to enemy shooting is hilarious. Forcing an enemy to fall back or get shot by 18 heavy bolter shots (I was running the classic configuration) and then 9 str 9 -2 d3 damage attacks is hilarious. Running fleeing Genestealers down with a baneblade because they Fell Back is hilarious.

It was a funny game. Genestealers got a first turn charge agains a guard gunline and lost!


Your opponent sucks, plain and simple


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 14:43:14


Post by: Razerous


Can you only spend one CP per turn (or per phase?)


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 14:46:48


Post by: Trickstick


Razerous wrote:
Can you only spend one CP per turn (or per phase?)


It's per phase.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 15:07:45


Post by: WisdomLS


Razerous wrote:
Can you only spend one CP per turn (or per phase?)


It's per phase.


I believe you can spend as many command points as you like but the restriction is you can only spend them on a particular use once per phase. So only one re-roll per phase, but you could for instance interrupt the initiative order and gain a re-roll in the same phase as they are different uses.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 16:12:26


Post by: Commissar Benny


 Humble Guardsman wrote:
xmbk wrote:
 Humble Guardsman wrote:
The ability to spend a CP to re-roll one of the charge dice may make it more viable, but yes I agree. Few people aside from IG players will have that kind of CP to freely spend.


Most armies will have CP, if they want it. Guard a few more, but most will have what they need.


At the 2000 point mark, sure. Anything much smaller and a lot of armies have to start being really selective to get those CP. For IG players they were going to fill up all those slots anyway.

I've seen non IG players here mention that they've reached 3CP in 1000pts and they think that's good. Every IG player worth his salt should be garnering enough to spend one in every shooting phase and still have enough left over to use on stratagems or seizing the initiative on a whim.


I've been playing around with detachments & it seems entirely possible for guard to have 21+ command points in a 2000 pt game. 2 Brigade detachments = 18. +3 for being battle forged. Unless there is some rule preventing that.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 16:17:25


Post by: Unit1126PLL


KurtAngle2 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Omg I cannot reiterate enough how good Baneblades are. I played Tyranids last night, put my old girls out front, got first-turn charged by Genestealers... and didn't really care. Eventually won combat with the old girls and mopped up.

Being able to shoot whilst immune to enemy shooting is hilarious. Forcing an enemy to fall back or get shot by 18 heavy bolter shots (I was running the classic configuration) and then 9 str 9 -2 d3 damage attacks is hilarious. Running fleeing Genestealers down with a baneblade because they Fell Back is hilarious.

It was a funny game. Genestealers got a first turn charge agains a guard gunline and lost!


Your opponent sucks, plain and simple


I mean they could have not charged the Baneblades at all. Maybe the genestealers could have killed them with angry glares.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 16:46:53


Post by: Otto von Bludd


 Humble Guardsman wrote:
xmbk wrote:
 Humble Guardsman wrote:
The ability to spend a CP to re-roll one of the charge dice may make it more viable, but yes I agree. Few people aside from IG players will have that kind of CP to freely spend.


Most armies will have CP, if they want it. Guard a few more, but most will have what they need.


At the 2000 point mark, sure. Anything much smaller and a lot of armies have to start being really selective to get those CP. For IG players they were going to fill up all those slots anyway.

I've seen non IG players here mention that they've reached 3CP in 1000pts and they think that's good. Every IG player worth his salt should be garnering enough to spend one in every shooting phase and still have enough left over to use on stratagems or seizing the initiative on a whim.


It shouldn't be hard to fill up a full Brigade at 1000 points. I haven't tried it yet, but it seems pretty easy.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 16:59:55


Post by: BunkhouseBuster


 Trickstick wrote:
 Sonobovich wrote:
I haven't actually seen the full rulebooks yet. Is there something that prevents a 1+ save? Or is there something preventing psychic barrier from applying to tanks?


There is a rule that 1s always fail. Psychic battier can affect any Astra Militarum unit. I actually just noticed that when looking it up, any other army gets far less use out of the Astra Telepathics because they can't get the +1 save.
In Age of Sigmar, (and back in Warhammer Fantasy as well), the 1+ Armor Save fails, and is really there to keep the model/unit at a 2+ Save against Rend/AP -1. I would imagine that, if the 1+ Armor Save is legal in 40K, then a roll of 1 will still fail.

It's amazing to hear that Baneblades are combat monsters. This game is awesome.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 18:41:07


Post by: TzuWu


 ross-128 wrote:
Keep in mind that, for hot-shot Scions, deep striking puts them just outside of rapid-fire range (because they're just outside of 9"). So they actually will have to fire single-shot for one turn, take one turn of return fire, then get into rapid-fire next turn.


You're right - for some reason I was thinking they were 24". I'll rerun the numbers but it shouldn't really change the analysis. There would still be an advantage to face dropping vs foot slogging even if you're only getting RF on the plasma. First turn Veterans aren't getting RF on anything.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 18:58:17


Post by: bogalubov


 ross-128 wrote:
Keep in mind that, for hot-shot Scions, deep striking puts them just outside of rapid-fire range (because they're just outside of 9"). So they actually will have to fire single-shot for one turn, take one turn of return fire, then get into rapid-fire next turn.


Well it wouldn't be single shot. It would be 2 shots, it just wouldn't be 4 shots.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 19:35:36


Post by: Trollsmyth


Razerous wrote:

-Troop choice deep-striking Scions (are these still AM or are they a different army?!)


Kinda?

Yes, they share the ASTRA MILITARUM keyword and so can benefit from things like medi-packs and hop into Chimeras. However, they do not share the <REGIMENT> keyword so your Company Commander and Platoon Commanders can't give them orders. Likewise, most of your IG can't ride in a Taurox Prime.

I like the keyword system, but you have to watch it very carefully; it doesn't always work the way you expect.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 20:10:51


Post by: shank911


Can someone explain to me why a scion squad or command squad has to be taken in order to get a Taurox Primw??
Wouldn't the keyword astra militarium be enough to add the taurox prime for say an infantry squad?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just mean for the purpose of taking a Taurox not having units go inside it, just to clear that bit up.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 20:55:34


Post by: Razerous


Trollsmyth wrote:
Razerous wrote:

-Troop choice deep-striking Scions (are these still AM or are they a different army?!)


Kinda?

Yes, they share the ASTRA MILITARUM keyword and so can benefit from things like medi-packs and hop into Chimeras. However, they do not share the <REGIMENT> keyword so your Company Commander and Platoon Commanders can't give them orders. Likewise, most of your IG can't ride in a Taurox Prime.

I like the keyword system, but you have to watch it very carefully; it doesn't always work the way you expect.
So in terms of filling a force org, we're good to use Scions alongside say Wyverns?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 21:13:17


Post by: ThePie


I wonder if it's worth running a shadowsword with 4 heavy flamer sponsons, the shadowsword itself is extremely good at killing big targets and can easily make back it's 444 points, esoecially since its so durable and has long range.

The question is if its worth 200 extra points for 4 extra las cannons (that will also hit on 3+ against titanic targets) and 4 twin linked heavy flamers. It would make it more versatile being able to eliminate big targets and hirdes just as easily, and no hordes will be able to assault with its brutal 8d6 str 5 overwatch flamer hits


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 21:58:04


Post by: Chris521


 ThePie wrote:
I wonder if it's worth running a shadowsword with 4 heavy flamer sponsons, the shadowsword itself is extremely good at killing big targets and can easily make back it's 444 points, esoecially since its so durable and has long range.

The question is if its worth 200 extra points for 4 extra las cannons (that will also hit on 3+ against titanic targets) and 4 twin linked heavy flamers. It would make it more versatile being able to eliminate big targets and hirdes just as easily, and no hordes will be able to assault with its brutal 8d6 str 5 overwatch flamer hits


Personally, if I was gonna get the sponsons, I would save some points and get the heavy bolters. I wouldn't really move this thing too often, maybe park it on an objective. Even against non titanic models, it's main gun has a very good chance of popping a vehicle or creature every turn. There are better variants to put all those flamers on, like a storm lord loaded with units or a hellhammer.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 22:34:06


Post by: ThePie


 Chris521 wrote:
 ThePie wrote:
I wonder if it's worth running a shadowsword with 4 heavy flamer sponsons, the shadowsword itself is extremely good at killing big targets and can easily make back it's 444 points, esoecially since its so durable and has long range.

The question is if its worth 200 extra points for 4 extra las cannons (that will also hit on 3+ against titanic targets) and 4 twin linked heavy flamers. It would make it more versatile being able to eliminate big targets and hirdes just as easily, and no hordes will be able to assault with its brutal 8d6 str 5 overwatch flamer hits


Personally, if I was gonna get the sponsons, I would save some points and get the heavy bolters. I wouldn't really move this thing too often, maybe park it on an objective. Even against non titanic models, it's main gun has a very good chance of popping a vehicle or creature every turn. There are better variants to put all those flamers on, like a storm lord loaded with units or a hellhammer.


Indeed, i just feel like the shadowsword is a must, its just that awesome against big targets for its price and survability (especially with and enginseer for 52 pts behind it that repairs1d3 wounds every round). And the twin heavy flamers, while expensive, absolutely murders hordes. Getting thebest of both would be nice.

On the otherhand, it might be viable to run 2 baneblades in this edition, one shadowsword and one normal baneblade with sponsons, especially with such cheap bubblewrap we have acess too, and enginseers who can repair them.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 23:14:50


Post by: lash92


What is your take on the Chimera?

I am searching for a way to use it. Probably with 2 x Heavy Flamer, but which units inside would complement this good?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 23:20:23


Post by: labmouse42


lash92 wrote:
What is your take on the Chimera?

I am searching for a way to use it. Probably with 2 x Heavy Flamer, but which units inside would complement this good?
Don't forget to add a storm bolter. 4 shots for 2 points. It's a great deal.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 23:26:58


Post by: Trickstick


 labmouse42 wrote:
lash92 wrote:
What is your take on the Chimera?

I am searching for a way to use it. Probably with 2 x Heavy Flamer, but which units inside would complement this good?
Don't forget to add a storm bolter. 4 shots for 2 points. It's a great deal.


I would put something that is good at sort range combat and objective grabbing inside. Shotgun melta/flamer vets are one choice, although I feel that they are better suited to Valkyrie play. Other than that, the two main options are basic infantry squads or command/special squads. With basic infantry you keep the cost right down whilst giving some objective capturing power to the unit. A few Chimeras with support characters (officers/commissars) mixed in can be a nice advancing force if you add some support units. Or, you can go with maximum special weapons for a nasty strike force.

I am tempted to go with basic infantry for both the fluff aspects and cheapness. If you spend a load of points on special weapons then it is a waste if they fail. Infantry squads are more of a bonus, which are not as bad if thrown away or not used immediately.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/09 23:42:57


Post by: Trollsmyth


Razerous wrote:
So in terms of filling a force org, we're good to use Scions alongside say Wyverns?


In terms of filling out detachments, you're fine using anything with the keyword IMPERIUM. So you can have your scions alongside Wyverns backed up by Custodes supported by Death Company all being led by Belisarius Cawl.

Granted, you'd lose some of the synergies doing that; the "bubble powers" of characters are generally tied to more selective keywords than just IMPERIUM.

Still, force orgs, as we've known them, are no longer a thing.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/10 00:13:13


Post by: Coyote81


shank911 wrote:
Can someone explain to me why a scion squad or command squad has to be taken in order to get a Taurox Primw??
Wouldn't the keyword astra militarium be enough to add the taurox prime for say an infantry squad?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just mean for the purpose of taking a Taurox not having units go inside it, just to clear that bit up.


This the way keywords work right now. Taurox Prime is an imperial unit, so you can purchase one for each other slot you purchase in an imperial army.
-Buy a Primaris Captain, buy a Taurox Prime
-Buy a Inquisitor, buy a Taurox Prime
-Buy a Landraider, buy a Taurox Prime (His escort buddy I guess)


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/10 01:36:30


Post by: shank911


 Coyote81 wrote:
shank911 wrote:
Can someone explain to me why a scion squad or command squad has to be taken in order to get a Taurox Primw??
Wouldn't the keyword astra militarium be enough to add the taurox prime for say an infantry squad?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just mean for the purpose of taking a Taurox not having units go inside it, just to clear that bit up.


This the way keywords work right now. Taurox Prime is an imperial unit, so you can purchase one for each other slot you purchase in an imperial army.
-Buy a Primaris Captain, buy a Taurox Prime
-Buy a Inquisitor, buy a Taurox Prime
-Buy a Landraider, buy a Taurox Prime (His escort buddy I guess)



So having an astral militarism army, with no scion (militarism tempestus) units would still allow me to bring it due to imperium and astral militarism keyword matching my company commander and rest of my list correct?? Or do i have to take a unit with the militarium tempestus keyword??


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/10 01:43:22


Post by: Coyote81


shank911 wrote:
 Coyote81 wrote:
shank911 wrote:
Can someone explain to me why a scion squad or command squad has to be taken in order to get a Taurox Primw??
Wouldn't the keyword astra militarium be enough to add the taurox prime for say an infantry squad?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just mean for the purpose of taking a Taurox not having units go inside it, just to clear that bit up.


This the way keywords work right now. Taurox Prime is an imperial unit, so you can purchase one for each other slot you purchase in an imperial army.
-Buy a Primaris Captain, buy a Taurox Prime
-Buy a Inquisitor, buy a Taurox Prime
-Buy a Landraider, buy a Taurox Prime (His escort buddy I guess)



So having an astral militarism army, with no scion (militarism tempestus) units would still allow me to bring it due to imperium and astral militarism keyword matching my company commander and rest of my list correct?? Or do i have to take a unit with the militarium tempestus keyword??


Yes, as long as they all share any keyword, even imperial, your good, you don't need a tempestus unit


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/10 02:05:13


Post by: Trollsmyth


shank911 wrote:
So having an astral militarism army, with no scion (militarism tempestus) units would still allow me to bring it due to imperium and astral militarism keyword matching my company commander and rest of my list correct?? Or do i have to take a unit with the militarium tempestus keyword??


You can take it. But only tempestusesesses can ride in it. But you can still add it to your detachment.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/10 06:52:06


Post by: shank911


I just want it the Taurox for the 20 gatling gun haha


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/10 16:15:59


Post by: lash92


Which setup do you prefer for a Scions drop squad:

- 10 x Scions (4 x Plasma, Plasmapistol on Tempestor) with Tempestor Prime (Plasma Pistol)

- 2 x Scions Command Squad (4 x Plasma each) with Tempestor Prime (Command Rod)




Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/10 18:24:55


Post by: Kaiyanwang


 lash92 wrote:
Which setup do you prefer for a Scions drop squad:

- 10 x Scions (4 x Plasma, Plasmapistol on Tempestor) with Tempestor Prime (Plasma Pistol)

- 2 x Scions Command Squad (4 x Plasma each) with Tempestor Prime (Command Rod)




I see people advocating for large squads but I doubt Scion have enough resilience. Isn't better to just equip well 4 and 5 men squads, give rods to tempestors and alpha-strike the enemy?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/10 19:56:49


Post by: Aesthete


Depends on your approach. I think there's value in using the regular squads since they're troops, so they can contribute to maximizing command points.

If it's purely about points paid for damage, command squads win. But regular squads can be the better choice if you want the versatility to contest objectives and/or fill up troop slots with deep strike capable plasma wielders.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/11 00:49:46


Post by: Trickstick


Thought some may be interested in this piece I found about Conscripts. I would never go to the extreme of an all conscript army, although I was thinking about 100 to be a nice manpower force. Temped to build some movement trays for them and march them forward Chenkov style.

Spoiler:


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/11 03:48:32


Post by: ross-128


Definitely seems to be an accurate assessment. The two biggest things I see holding it back would be dense terrain that simply don't leave enough room on the board to deploy them, and the Bob Ross levels of zen that would be required to paint them.

Though perhaps some of the Old Guard who have been around since Rogue Trader might have built up a large enough collection over time...


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/11 05:54:17


Post by: Polonius


One of my rules for buying and building at this point is to not go too far building anything based on what's good at this moment. GW could adjust points or even change things up in the codex, so I don't want to end up with piles of models that were optimized for the index, but are nerfed in six months.

I'm not spitting in the face of this thread, as I agree that theory hammer points to conscripts, plasma scions, and mortar squads... but aside from the stuff I have unpainted (which is plenty) I'm not investing too much money in my army right now.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/11 06:31:14


Post by: Twoshoes23


Wise choice


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/11 12:20:59


Post by: Biophysical


There's a lot of excitement about Conscripts right now, and I do think they're strong, but the more I think about it, the more I think 40 point infantry squads can perform a similar role as well, and be good at it.

Offensively, a minimally upgraded infantry squad (1 point Bolter on Sgt.) Puts out more small arms hits per point than the Conscripts. Defensively, you get 3 infantry squad wounds per 4 conscripts wounds. So without buffs, basic infantry is offensively stronger, but defensively weaker per point than a conscript squad. The inclusion of cover brings smaller squads closer to the defensive efficiency of conscripts, as conscripts will rarely get a cover bonus.

If you add in Orders, conscripts get stronger, because a single order can affect 20-50 models instead of just 10. However the "eggs in one basket" principle applies. A conscripts squad that is assaulted has all of its models locked down, instead of just 10. The Order efficiency gain is a little bit misleading as well. As casualties are taken, orders are applied to smaller and smaller conscript squads, but as infantry squads are lost, orders are applied to fill strength squads.

In assault, conscripts fare much worse than infantry squads. 100% of the squad is tied up in combat, and 100% of it is neutralized of forced to withdraw. A single order can bring it back into play, however. With multiple infantry squads, however, one squad can screen others, soak the assault, withdraw (if it's alive), and then the other squads can fire at close range, supported by orders. The multiple infantry squads are also quite flexible on the attack. They can all fire on an enemy unit, then a single squad can charge the enemy unit to tie it up for a turn, forcing a withdrawal or just tarpitting it in combat. Conscripts do bring more attacks to a fight die to bodies and order efficiency (Fix Bayonets! and Counterattack), but hitting on a 5+ and losing the bonus attack for charging really hurt their ability from previous editions to actually accomplish something in close combat beyond stalling for time, which Infantry squads do better anyway..

There are still plenty of reasons to take conscripts. The sheer number of bodies has a lot of value, as does the order efficiency. The the rules changes in this edition, however, mean that many smaller squads are very good at performing the overall tactical jobs that large blobs used to be needed for. All those cheap infantry squads make even easier to fill out your troops requirements for certain detachments as well, although 20-man conscripts are no burden in that category.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/11 12:46:44


Post by: Humble Guardsman


A good analysis.

One further argument in favour of Infantry Squads is the Leadership. The Sgt's Ld 7 is a huge difference. By the time an Infantry squad has taken enough losses in a turn to be automatically taking morale casualties, their combat effectiveness has already been reduced to fraction of what it was (3 models). Conscripts on the other hand, if they take 7 casualties in a turn they are already looking at between 3 or 9 more casualties. A bad roll on leadership will effectively only finish off an already mauled Infantry squad, but a bad roll on a Conscript squad may reduce a functional unit to nearly nothing.

Guardsmen benefit from having a Commissar around, but Conscripts absolutely -need- one.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/11 12:58:30


Post by: Biophysical


Very true, I didn't discuss that because I was thinking that Commissars would probably be automatic. But yeah, the leadership advantage is real. The general trend is that infantry squads are almost universally stronger without buffs and are sometimes stronger when buffs are around. The eventual calculus for which to choose comes down to a number of army build considerations.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/11 14:32:59


Post by: xmbk


 Humble Guardsman wrote:
xmbk wrote:
 Humble Guardsman wrote:
The ability to spend a CP to re-roll one of the charge dice may make it more viable, but yes I agree. Few people aside from IG players will have that kind of CP to freely spend.


Most armies will have CP, if they want it. Guard a few more, but most will have what they need.


At the 2000 point mark, sure. Anything much smaller and a lot of armies have to start being really selective to get those CP. For IG players they were going to fill up all those slots anyway.

I've seen non IG players here mention that they've reached 3CP in 1000pts and they think that's good. Every IG player worth his salt should be garnering enough to spend one in every shooting phase and still have enough left over to use on stratagems or seizing the initiative on a whim.


I think CP will have a sweet spot, with diminishing returns. For smaller games, IG will reach it easier. For 1850+, I don't think it's much of an advantage. I've made brigades lists for Nids, Tau, and Marines. It was slightly easier with Guard, only Eldar struggled to get there. But Eldar are the only ones out of that group that seem to suffer from wonky pricing.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/11 15:42:28


Post by: Biophysical


One shooting phase re-roll per turn is 6 CPs, probably well spent. You could spend one each turn defensively, probably on vehicle armor saves or character saves and it wouldn't be much of a waste. That's the 3 base + a brigade's 9. A seize re-roll and occasional use of Insane Bravery to avoid Battle Shock on key units for objective purposes could also be significant. On top of this, Advance or Charge re-rolls can be game-changing in later phases to secure or contest objectives, and re-rolling the number of heavy flamer shots you get on Overwatch is yet another impactful use.

I think, although I'm by no means certain, that a big pile of CPs will allow serious additional flexibility with how you use your forces, squeezing out key rolls when they have larger impact. 12 is a lot, but I can see using a lot more as long as your e not compromising your list to access them.

I've got a Brigade detachment that I think I like in 1000 points for 12 CPs, using largely basic infantry and light vehicles. 222 points of this are Chimeras that don't even contribute to a detachment requirement. It would be easy, and probably a solid choice, to throw in a battalion detachment of Scions (very solid troops) for another 3 CP at about 350 points, or a vanguard dedatchment of a Company Commander and 3 special weapon squads for a CP at well under 200 points. I'm very interested to see how much CPs actually matter.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/11 16:04:18


Post by: Leth


CPs only matter depending on how smart you are about using them. Saving them for the more important rolls as well as baiting them out.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/11 19:03:48


Post by: Wingeds


Anyone had good luck with bullgryns? They look like they have potential


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/11 19:58:54


Post by: Trollsmyth


 Polonius wrote:
One of my rules for buying and building at this point is to not go too far building anything based on what's good at this moment. GW could adjust points or even change things up in the codex, so I don't want to end up with piles of models that were optimized for the index, but are nerfed in six months.


Even before (and after) we get a codex, isn't adjusting point values every year the point of the promised Chapter Approved books? I think it's not unreasonable to expect the most popular units in all armies to see their points costs wax and wane every year, not just when their particular codex comes out.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/11 21:41:07


Post by: Formerly Wu


I had a thought about using Valkyries in an air cavalry role. Somebody check me if I've missed something here:

Put your Valkyrie in hover mode. Move it 20".

Grav-chute deploy the squad. Because they deployed during the movement phase (not at the end as in most cases of "deep strike" deployment), they can still move after deploying.

Shoot whatever you're prioritizing with the squad and the Valkyrie (taking -1 on the Valkyrie due to Heavy weapons).

Charge with the Valkyrie. Being in hover mode removes the Airborne rule, which is the only thing preventing this from happening. You're not looking to do damage here, just to protect your squad on the ground, safeguard your Valkyrie against reprisal fire, and maybe force a withdrawal. Pick a unit that's a threat to your squad but unlikely to deal crippling damage to the Valkyrie in 1 turn. You can charge with the squad too, if you're feeling spicy.

On your next turn, if you're still in combat, you can use your Fly disengage to reposition your Valkyrie.

The idea of a Valkyrie fighting in close combat is weird, but I'd just picture it as the pilot strafing around at low altitude laying down suppression fire.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/12 05:24:43


Post by: hotsauceman1


What does everyone think of a Tank Commander now?
and what weapon?
Im trying to expand, I used to play dual blob, but I cant anymore.
What is good now?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/12 06:50:01


Post by: lash92


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
What does everyone think of a Tank Commander now?
and what weapon?
Im trying to expand, I used to play dual blob, but I cant anymore.
What is good now?


If your army is Cadian I would definitely suggest that you get Pask, because he is just 10 points extra for +1BS and an additional order.
Furthermore he can issue orders to himself and other Tank commanders.

For weapons choice I like the Punisher. (For some numbers on the weapons check http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334215-improving-the-effectiveness-of-the-leman-russ/#)


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/12 10:15:00


Post by: Trickstick


 lash92 wrote:
If your army is Cadian I would definitely suggest that you get Pask, because he is just 10 points extra for +1BS and an additional order.


It's not like your army needs to be Cadian. Just call them whatever you like and if anyone asks say "totally Cadian, wink wink". The rule is only there to stop you mixing things like Creed and Straken. As long as you stick to one keyword it doesn't really matter what it is.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/12 16:09:23


Post by: hotsauceman1


Awesome,
Also, what do people think of Suicide command squads in Valkyries, Vendettas.
They are cheap, with a platoon commander in there you can re-roll ones and so forth, Im just curious


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/12 17:00:54


Post by: PUFNSTUF


For those who have used or want to use super heavies, do you find a baneblade variant is better than a knight?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/12 17:42:04


Post by: shank911


PUFNSTUF wrote:
For those who have used or want to use super heavies, do you find a baneblade variant is better than a knight?


The current builds appear to be shadowsword or baneblade.
Looking at the math it makes sense. For tournaments where you expect titans to be everywhere stormsword for sure, worst case it is killing a large wound creatures/a vehicle a turn.
Baneblade is slightly better due to the 2d6 for meq and hordes.

The only other variant I would look at is the banehammer since it can stop a unit from moving as quickly. Highly useful in the right scenario.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/12 18:06:54


Post by: lash92


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Awesome,
Also, what do people think of Suicide command squads in Valkyries, Vendettas.
They are cheap, with a platoon commander in there you can re-roll ones and so forth, Im just curious


I would just use 2 x Tempestus Command Squad (4 x Plasma each) + Tempestor Prime.
Deepstrike within 9"" and unleash 16 overcharged plasma shots, hitting on 3+ with rerolling 1s


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/12 18:27:35


Post by: Trickstick


shank911 wrote:
PUFNSTUF wrote:
For those who have used or want to use super heavies, do you find a baneblade variant is better than a knight?


The current builds appear to be shadowsword or baneblade.
Looking at the math it makes sense. For tournaments where you expect titans to be everywhere stormsword for sure, worst case it is killing a large wound creatures/a vehicle a turn.
Baneblade is slightly better due to the 2d6 for meq and hordes.

The only other variant I would look at is the banehammer since it can stop a unit from moving as quickly. Highly useful in the right scenario.


I think I prefer the Hellhammer over the Baneblade. 20 pts more but you get +1str, -1ap and ignore cover. 36" range is not great but if you are advancing with flamers then you will have plenty of targets. That 10str is pretty nice as it gets 2+ to wound against t5. Also, don't forget that lasgun!

I'm still quite disappointed at the Stormsword. It used to use the massive 10" template and the same stats as the Hellhammer cannon. Now it is 1d6 shots with various rerolls. It isn't horrible but no longer has the massive blast it had.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/12 22:46:38


Post by: Unit1126PLL


Wait to see the Arkurion Pattern superheavies in the Forge World index. They may improve the Stormsword and Shadowsword somewhat.

Also, they include the Stormhammer which I have 3 of (being a former heresy superheavy tank regiment) and if it is anything like its heresy incarnation it will trump the other superheavy tanks handsomely.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 00:02:37


Post by: PUFNSTUF


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait to see the Arkurion Pattern superheavies in the Forge World index. They may improve the Stormsword and Shadowsword somewhat.



Are the arkurion just different varients? Interestingly enough, I feel like the super heavy tanks gained a bit from the cover and los from anywhere on the vehicle now compared to a knight. With its lower profile, you can probably peek corners easier and shoot away.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 05:54:08


Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


 Trickstick wrote:
Thought some may be interested in this piece I found about Conscripts. I would never go to the extreme of an all conscript army, although I was thinking about 100 to be a nice manpower force. Temped to build some movement trays for them and march them forward Chenkov style.

Spoiler:


A small problem is that you can't keep your characters protected quite the way this suggests you can. During movement, you may not move through other models, friendly or enemy, and you must move units one at a time. So to keep your characters embedded in the conscript blobs, you would need to keep an open channel at the back, disrupting the formation and making it less efficient that portrayed. Not a huge amount worse, but a bit. It also means that to use movement trays you would also need to keep this channel, otherwise the movement of the tray would be illegal.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 06:15:46


Post by: shank911


 Trickstick wrote:
Thought some may be interested in this piece I found about Conscripts. I would never go to the extreme of an all conscript army, although I was thinking about 100 to be a nice manpower force. Temped to build some movement trays for them and march them forward Chenkov style.

Spoiler:


Wouldn't snipers be the downfall of this technique since they could shoot the commander out and commissar?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 06:45:54


Post by: Unit1126PLL


PUFNSTUF wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait to see the Arkurion Pattern superheavies in the Forge World index. They may improve the Stormsword and Shadowsword somewhat.



Are the arkurion just different varients? Interestingly enough, I feel like the super heavy tanks gained a bit from the cover and los from anywhere on the vehicle now compared to a knight. With its lower profile, you can probably peek corners easier and shoot away.


They are, except the Stormhammer is totally different.

And I think our superheavies are amazing now.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 06:46:23


Post by: Leth


shank911 wrote:
 Trickstick wrote:
Thought some may be interested in this piece I found about Conscripts. I would never go to the extreme of an all conscript army, although I was thinking about 100 to be a nice manpower force. Temped to build some movement trays for them and march them forward Chenkov style.

Spoiler:


Wouldn't snipers be the downfall of this technique since they could shoot the commander out and commissar?


Once you do the math on snipers it takes quite a few to reliably drop a character in one shooting phase.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 07:10:06


Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


10 Ratlings drop a commissar/commander a turn for 70pts.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 07:45:29


Post by: lash92


Since we are already talking about snipers:

10 Ratlings vs Vindicare Assassin?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 09:38:54


Post by: iddy00711


Snipers aren't terribly difficult to over come, a few over sized banners and Cadian flags would do the trick. If you can't see the model, you can't shoot it.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 10:25:39


Post by: Leth


 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
10 Ratlings drop a commissar/commander a turn for 70pts.


10 shoots
6.66 hits
1 mortal
4.44 wounds
2.22 get through

That i just over 3 wounds. Not seeing a reliable drop of a character from that.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 10:31:00


Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


 Leth wrote:
 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
10 Ratlings drop a commissar/commander a turn for 70pts.


10 shoots
6.66 hits
1 mortal
4.44 wounds
2.22 get through

That i just over 3 wounds. Not seeing a reliable drop of a character from that.


First off both commissars and commanders have only a 5+ armor, so 3.33 + 1 mortal wound get through, which will drop either in a single turn. Even if in cover, the commissars are only 3 wounds, and so are reliably dropped, and they are what really holds conscripts together.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 10:39:05


Post by: JB


 Leth wrote:
 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
10 Ratlings drop a commissar/commander a turn for 70pts.


10 shoots
6.66 hits
1 mortal
4.44 wounds
2.22 get through

That i just over 3 wounds. Not seeing a reliable drop of a character from that.

Three unsaved wounds will kill an ordinary commissar or platoon commander. A lucky fourth wound would finish off a lord commissar or company commander.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 11:06:26


Post by: MinscS2


 JB wrote:

Three unsaved wounds will kill an ordinary commissar or platoon commander. A lucky fourth wound would finish off a lord commissar or company commander.


At least they both have a 5++, so it's has to be very lucky indeed.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 11:19:37


Post by: schadenfreude


20 ratlings using shoot and scamper to stay out of LOS.
10 hits
1.66 mortal wounds
5 regular wounds
3.33 unsaved wounds against IG characters, 2.5 agaist eldar psykers

Not bad


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 11:34:54


Post by: Biophysical


Lord Commissars get 4+, so they're a little harder to kill, but definitely still don't want to get shot.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 11:37:35


Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


Biophysical wrote:
Lord Commissars get 4+, so they're a little harder to kill, but definitely still don't want to get shot.


They are also nearly twice the cost of a non-aristocratic commissar, so...


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 11:47:48


Post by: MinscS2


Lord Comissars are also infinitely cooler and better at fighting.

I know what I'm fielding.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 12:03:00


Post by: Trickstick


 schadenfreude wrote:
20 ratlings using shoot and scamper to stay out of LOS.
10 hits
1.66 mortal wounds
5 regular wounds
3.33 unsaved wounds against IG characters, 2.5 agaist eldar psykers

Not bad


If you try to use ssas like jsj, then you are taking the -1 to move with a heavy weapon.

Also, Ratlings will die to pretty much any fire. A couple of mortar squads would make short work of them.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 12:33:09


Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


You get to set up ratlings after mortars are set up, though, so this can be mitigated to an extent. And it would still take 2-3 turns of shooting with the mortars to wipe a squad of 10, depending on your luck. Ratlings will likely make their points back in dead characters by then.

Deepstriking Scion command squad with 2 volley guns has about the same damage output, costs 2 points more, can be positioned more accurately, and have a reasonable chance of making a charge and tying up the snipers in melee after shooting them up.

Ratlings are certainly fragile, but they are cheap and effective at what they do for what they cost.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 12:41:38


Post by: Leth


I think we are going to see plenty of indirect fire weapons making a comeback, thunderfire cannons, mortars, whirlwinds, etc.

They are pretty good in general and have a solid damage output.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 13:56:03


Post by: Twoshoes23


I cant find what platoon standards do, did I miss it somewhere? I see regimental standards, +1 leadership. Platoon standard is also 5 pts but cant find the rules.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 14:04:27


Post by: Lendys


 lash92 wrote:
Since we are already talking about snipers:

10 Ratlings vs Vindicare Assassin?


The vindicare has an advantage in survivability and range. Because it is a character it can only be targeted by counter snipers (which it may outrange) unless it is the closest unit.

A good artillery strike, like from a wyrven or HWS will seriously hurt ratlings. A wyrven will do an average of 3.39 wounds to a group of ratlings in cover. Doesn't seem bad except in the morale phase they will, on average, lose 5 more due to morale (they are LD 5). The wyrven can't even target the vindicare unless it is closest enemy unit. And even if it could, it will do an average of 1.15 wounds.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 15:24:08


Post by: Trickstick


 Twoshoes23 wrote:
I cant find what platoon standards do, did I miss it somewhere? I see regimental standards, +1 leadership. Platoon standard is also 5 pts but cant find the rules.


Platoon standards are just the version for Scion command squads. There is no longer a difference between ccs/pcs, or the different banners they had, it is all just the regimental standard and normal command squad.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 16:36:27


Post by: JB


I have played three games using 2000 points. My initial impression is that IG artillery is too good for the points cost. I have enjoyed using Wyverns, Basilisks, and Manticores with a Master of Ordnance. The Basilisk is fair but the others are beat sticks.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 17:18:00


Post by: Unit1126PLL


I am going to check on using another superheavy company in a game today. The last two games with it have been super duper badwrongfun for the opponent, since the Baneblades basically drove in a straight line forwards until everything was dead, so they may not want to play them and I won't force them too.

Might get something done with stormswords, or might play something else entirely.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 17:42:31


Post by: lash92


Lendys wrote:
 lash92 wrote:
Since we are already talking about snipers:

10 Ratlings vs Vindicare Assassin?


The vindicare has an advantage in survivability and range. Because it is a character it can only be targeted by counter snipers (which it may outrange) unless it is the closest unit.

A good artillery strike, like from a wyrven or HWS will seriously hurt ratlings. A wyrven will do an average of 3.39 wounds to a group of ratlings in cover. Doesn't seem bad except in the morale phase they will, on average, lose 5 more due to morale (they are LD 5). The wyrven can't even target the vindicare unless it is closest enemy unit. And even if it could, it will do an average of 1.15 wounds.


Good points.
Plus the Vindicare has imo the far cooler model.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 17:45:49


Post by: Razerous


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I am going to check on using another superheavy company in a game today. The last two games with it have been super duper badwrongfun for the opponent, since the Baneblades basically drove in a straight line forwards until everything was dead, so they may not want to play them and I won't force them too.

Might get something done with stormswords, or might play something else entirely.
Does the Baneblade have a Inv save?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 18:15:02


Post by: PUFNSTUF


Razerous wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I am going to check on using another superheavy company in a game today. The last two games with it have been super duper badwrongfun for the opponent, since the Baneblades basically drove in a straight line forwards until everything was dead, so they may not want to play them and I won't force them too.

Might get something done with stormswords, or might play something else entirely.
Does the Baneblade have a Inv save?


Don't think any of the super heavy tanks for AM do


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 18:26:36


Post by: hotsauceman1


me and my friends can find anything that says otherwise....but does the baneblade still suffer -1 to hit with special weapons?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 18:37:37


Post by: shank911


Wish you could put Pask in a baneblade haha


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 18:44:36


Post by: Trickstick


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
me and my friends can find anything that says otherwise....but does the baneblade still suffer -1 to hit with special weapons?


Yeah, -1 to hit with heavy weapons.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 19:45:26


Post by: Razerous


 Trickstick wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
me and my friends can find anything that says otherwise....but does the baneblade still suffer -1 to hit with special weapons?


Yeah, -1 to hit with heavy weapons.
Why.. can only think of the Titanic keyword?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 20:22:56


Post by: necron99


So what's everyone's opinion on wyverns? I own three and would hate to see them start collecting dust


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 20:27:12


Post by: Trickstick


Razerous wrote:
 Trickstick wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
me and my friends can find anything that says otherwise....but does the baneblade still suffer -1 to hit with special weapons?


Yeah, -1 to hit with heavy weapons.
Why.. can only think of the Titanic keyword?


Everything in the game gets -1 to hit with heavy weapons whilst moving, unless they have a rule on their datasheet that removes it. A lot of people are going to forget that things like fliers shoot most guns at -1. Most superheavies, like the knight, have a rule that stops the -1. However, the baneblades have a rule that lets them shoot in combat and after retreating, but nothing about the -1.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 20:46:04


Post by: ross-128


The "while moving" part is also important. Specifically, it only applies if you moved in the movement phase. Just another reason why a Baneblade generally wants to be in combat in 8th: if you're locked in melee you're not moving, the pile-in move doesn't count because that's part of the fight phase. So a Baneblade can happily sit in melee, getting 9 attacks in the fight phase on top of being able to shoot all of its weapons at full BS because it's considered to be not moving.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 21:01:46


Post by: Unit1126PLL


Yes, the Baneblade company is OP precisely because it earnestly enjoys being in close combat where it shoots best.

And is also immune to enemy shooting.

And gets 9 free attacks.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 22:22:24


Post by: vipoid


What do you guys think about plasma pistols? Are they worth giving to sergeants? Company Commanders? Commissars?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 22:24:12


Post by: JB


 necron99 wrote:
So what's everyone's opinion on wyverns? I own three and would hate to see them start collecting dust

Wyverns are very good in 8th edition. I use three of them plus two Manticores and a Master of Ordnance. They kill everything. Most of the rest of my army is just there to keep the enemy away from my artillery.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 22:31:19


Post by: Doctoralex


 JB wrote:
 necron99 wrote:
So what's everyone's opinion on wyverns? I own three and would hate to see them start collecting dust

Wyverns are very good in 8th edition. I use three of them plus two Manticores and a Master of Ordnance. They kill everything. Most of the rest of my army is just there to keep the enemy away from my artillery.


Huh really? Great to hear! I love me some artillery!

Did you not have trouble with the 'minimum range of 36" ' that you need for the Master of Ordnance's bonuses?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 22:34:47


Post by: Trickstick


Doctoralex wrote:
Did you not have trouble with the 'minimum range of 36" ' that you need for the Master of Ordnance's aura?


It does seem a pain, especially with the Wyvern. That 48" range means you only have a 12" window of usefulness. You also get hit with a -1 to hit if you try to move and bring something into that zone.

I'm not a fan of the MoO, since he only has a single shot with his pocket-basilisk. I guess he could be ok if you take more artillery than average.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 23:10:30


Post by: JB


I put the MoO with the Manticores. The Wyverns have so many possible attacks (4D6) and get to reroll wounds so they do not need the MoO buff.

My artillery has killed Land Raiders, multiple squads of terminators, and AM tanks and artillery. Abaddon has learned to fear Wyverns.

The 36" MoO limit hasn't been a problem in my three games. My hordes of infantry have kept the enemy far enough away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I played a couple games using three Basilisks but they seem a little less effective than massed Wyverns and Manticores. Admittedly, I haven't had to play past Turn 4 when the Manticores run out of rockets.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 23:37:13


Post by: ThePie


So what do people think about the Taurox and Taurox Prime? They seem kinda good actually (atleast better than the steaming pile of crap that the chimera has become), especially the prime, only 1 less toughness than a chimera and better movement and balistic skill, and for 108 pts you can get a taurox prime with gatling cannon and 2 auto cannons that hit on 3+ or 4+ while moving, seem kinda worth the points actually. You could make give the primes missile launchers, though it might be a bit expensive compared to the cheap gatling cannon.

And does the valkyrie have 2 hellstrike missiles, it doesent say two clearly, just that it has "hellstrike missiles", but considering that they can replace thoose with 2 multiple rocket pods i think you can shoot 2 hellstrike missiles in thier shooting phase. And loading up a valkyrie with 2 special weapons squads with demolition charges might make a cheap character hunting team, only 78 pts for 2 squads.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 23:50:41


Post by: Trickstick


 ThePie wrote:
And does the valkyrie have 2 hellstrike missiles, it doesent say two clearly, just that it has "hellstrike missiles", but considering that they can replace thoose with 2 multiple rocket pods i think you can shoot 2 hellstrike missiles in thier shooting phase. And loading up a valkyrie with 2 special weapons squads with demolition charges might make a cheap character hunting team, only 78 pts for 2 squads.


Valkyries have a single weapon called "Hellstrike Missiles", which gets one shot a turn. On the plus side, it isn't limited ammo anymore.

Don't forget that demolition charges are a grenade, so a squad can only throw one a turn. May want to put a couple of flamers in there instead.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 23:50:51


Post by: Formerly Wu


 ThePie wrote:

And does the valkyrie have 2 hellstrike missiles, it doesent say two clearly, just that it has "hellstrike missiles", but considering that they can replace thoose with 2 multiple rocket pods i think you can shoot 2 hellstrike missiles in thier shooting phase. And loading up a valkyrie with 2 special weapons squads with demolition charges might make a cheap character hunting team, only 78 pts for 2 squads.

"Hellstrike missiles" is a single profile with Heavy 1, so no, you can't shoot twice. There's nothing about them being single use any more, however, so you can use them all game long.

The demo charges strike does sound fun, but remember that demo charges have type Grenade now- so you can only throw one per squad per turn. On the other hand, they're very cheap.

Edit: sniped.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 23:52:07


Post by: Trickstick


Almost exactly the same post. Beat you by 10 seconds though!


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/13 23:54:52


Post by: Formerly Wu


 Trickstick wrote:
Almost exactly the same post. Beat you by 10 seconds though!

I'll get you next time, Gadget!


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/14 00:03:57


Post by: ThePie


 Formerly Wu wrote:
 ThePie wrote:

And does the valkyrie have 2 hellstrike missiles, it doesent say two clearly, just that it has "hellstrike missiles", but considering that they can replace thoose with 2 multiple rocket pods i think you can shoot 2 hellstrike missiles in thier shooting phase. And loading up a valkyrie with 2 special weapons squads with demolition charges might make a cheap character hunting team, only 78 pts for 2 squads.

"Hellstrike missiles" is a single profile with Heavy 1, so no, you can't shoot twice. There's nothing about them being single use any more, however, so you can use them all game long.

The demo charges strike does sound fun, but remember that demo charges have type Grenade now- so you can only throw one per squad per turn. On the other hand, they're very cheap.

Edit: sniped.


Bummer, seems like the multiple rocket pod is better then, since you actually get 2 of them.

And since you get 2 squads in a valkyrie you can throw 2 demo charges, which should be enough to assassin a character or cripple a vehicle' keeping them cheap is the key since they will die the turn after for sure. Which might be advantage, because you can grav chute insert them without fear, since atleast 1 of the demo charge models will survive for sure so you can prob assassin a character turn 1

Thinking about it more closely, chimeras with dual heavy flamers, and loaded with 2 special weapons team with heavy charges might be the only way to make the chimera point effective, heavy flamers kill infantry while demolition charges cheaply deals with heavy targets. And playing against tau, i wonder if its not more effective to put heavy weapons team into your infantry squad rather than keep them in heavy weapon squads, they just get shot to pieces straight away before they can do anything.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/14 02:20:05


Post by: iddy00711


 JB wrote:
I put the MoO with the Manticores. The Wyverns have so many possible attacks (4D6) and get to reroll wounds so they do not need the MoO buff.

My artillery has killed Land Raiders, multiple squads of terminators, and AM tanks and artillery. Abaddon has learned to fear Wyverns.

The 36" MoO limit hasn't been a problem in my three games. My hordes of infantry have kept the enemy far enough away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I played a couple games using three Basilisks but they seem a little less effective than massed Wyverns and Manticores. Admittedly, I haven't had to play past Turn 4 when the Manticores run out of rockets.



For 81 points you can get 9D6 S4 shots from 3 Mortar teams, compared with the 4D6 for the Wyvern. I'm not saying it's bad, there's just better (and cheaper) options.

Manticores are overrated - you're doing an average of 2-4 wounds per round and the 2d6 shot mechanic is far too random. If it had a higher AP and better BS it would be significantly better .



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/14 08:06:46


Post by: Mavnas


So I'm comparing the guard super heavies to knights, and I'm struggling to see why you'd take the tanks :(


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/14 08:30:54


Post by: ThePie


Mavnas wrote:
So I'm comparing the guard super heavies to knights, and I'm struggling to see why you'd take the tanks :(


The shadowsword is probably the best super heavy in the game, can take out anything in 1-2 turns for just 444 pts, the transport versions are also good since they can protect your squishy heavy weapins teans


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/14 08:53:50


Post by: vipoid


What do you guys think of plasma pistols on sergeants and HQs?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/14 09:05:55


Post by: Mavnas


 ThePie wrote:
Mavnas wrote:
So I'm comparing the guard super heavies to knights, and I'm struggling to see why you'd take the tanks :(


The shadowsword is probably the best super heavy in the game, can take out anything in 1-2 turns for just 444 pts, the transport versions are also good since they can protect your squishy heavy weapins teans


I mean if you roll really well, maybe? If you're shooting at a knight, you get an average of 3.5 shots (1.75 hits). All of them wound, but only 1.16 get through the saves for 8-9 damage. You can use CPs to do a bit better (but there's so many dice to be re-rolled if you want to really do well), but he can use CPs to re-roll his invuln save. The knights do so much better in melee and without support since they have better BS and don't suffer when they move and have a 5++ save against shooting.

I can see the Stormlord being useful for allowing you to potentially protect squishy dudes and/or go first despite having many squads.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/14 09:19:41


Post by: Trickstick


Mavnas wrote:
If you're shooting at a knight, you get an average of 3.5 shots (1.75 hits).


You are forgetting the +1 to hit against Titanic units. That can really help out and it applies to all of the guns, so with 4 lascannons you can really do some damage.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/14 09:39:29


Post by: Mavnas


 Trickstick wrote:
Mavnas wrote:
If you're shooting at a knight, you get an average of 3.5 shots (1.75 hits).


You are forgetting the +1 to hit against Titanic units. That can really help out and it applies to all of the guns, so with 4 lascannons you can really do some damage.


Ooh, that's true. The 500+ point version with sponsons is definitely better, I think. The knight crusader could get 12 shots at S6 AP-2 D2 + 3 shots at S8 AP -2 D d6 + 2d6 shots at S8 AP -2 D d3, all at regardless of whether it moved or what type of target. Both come in within less than 10 points of eachother. Granted, maybe once I do the math that AP won't be enough to be as impressive as the volume of fire implies, but I guess I was considering the support I could give the tank like a Void Shield Generator and Yarrick (is there a cheaper way to reroll 1s or a better reroll available?).


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/14 10:52:01


Post by: Unit1126PLL


The reason you take the tanks over a Knight is the tanks (yes, even the Baneblade) has a good chance of killing the knight between shooting and charging.

It is also worth noting that the Baneblade can fire out of combat, so you can more easily sit on an objective with it and win without being bogged down and unable to fire. A knight can't even hold and objective in the same situation.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/14 11:45:40


Post by: Mr.Omega


This is how I see things right now

Outright mandatory
Commissar

Competitively useful
Company Commanders
Platoon Commanders
Tank Commanders/Pask in either a standard Russ or Demolisher
Heavy Weapon Squads (Insanely cheap and efficient)
Conscripts (See image on last page)
Tempestus Scions
Tempestor Prime (particularly airdrop FRFSRF)
Officer of the Fleet (Very cost efficient firepower all things considered with the airstrike)
Taurox Prime (a lot of firepower)
Valkyries (not so much for firepower, but for transportation utility)
Manticores
Wyverns
Militarum Tempestus Command Squads (only if you're using them in a minimalist 4x special weapon spam capacity, otherwise they're awful)
Ministorum Priests
Edit Command Squads (Only for some sort of Valkyrie/transport related special weapon spam, otherwise they're awful)

Meh/passable
Leman Russ Battle Tank
Leman Russ Demolisher
Leman Russ Executioner (only with a tank commander buddy for constant orders to supercharge)
Leman Russ Punisher
Hellhounds and variants
Infantry squads
Special Weapon Squads (Possibly above category if you're doing some Valkyrie shenanigans and filling them with two squads)
Master of Ordnance
Ratlings
Ogryns
Lord Commissar (unless using just to fill out force org and be a slightly better Commissar in which case above category)
Veterans
Basilisks


Awful
Command Squads (all-round pointless since medics are rubbish, banners are made irrelevant by the existence of Commissars, and vox casters can be used from any unit near an officer)
Hydras (overcosted and overspecialised)
Sergeant Harker (way too overcosted for what he offers as a force multiplier)

That's hilarious! What are the actual rules?
Deathstrike Missile Launchers
Leman Russ Eradicator
Leman Russ Vanquisher
Leman Russ Exterminator

As for the rest, I won't be able to tell until I've tried them more. I think there's potential for Sentinels, Bullgryns and Rough Riders, but I'm not sure where I'd put them yet.






Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/14 11:49:54


Post by: vipoid


I'm surprised you rated Infantry Squads as only being passable. They seem great to me.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/14 11:57:32


Post by: Mr.Omega


 vipoid wrote:
I'm surprised you rated Infantry Squads as only being passable. They seem great to me.



They're sort of borderline competitively useful in my mind, but now that they're more inconvenient to field without the combined squads rule, in terms of morale and orders, I'm struggling to see the point of them. If I need heavy weapons, I'll probably just take Heavy Weapon Squads instead seeing how they're obscenely cheap. I've always used my infantry like bubblewrap for the fire support elements with the strict purpose that the hope is if I get attacked head on with infantry they can peel them off and not have to worry about morale. I think with the changes we're seeing the ultra-multiplied Conscript blob with an officer, priest and commissar does this job better now.

What time will tell is basically if they can be made useful by having so many small units, so you can go about using the fight phase to stop enemy melee units from getting near your lines. Then you can start peppering them with another layer of squads if you go for some sort of staggered deployment.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/14 11:59:33


Post by: Al Haquis


I think you will see Hydras come out when we start seeing the wave serpent spam, i find a lot of thinks have the key word FLY.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/14 12:00:08


Post by: iddy00711


@ Mr.Omega

What's the issue with Sergeant Harker, re-rolling ones on shooting is excellent and for only 50 points!


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/14 12:05:27


Post by: MinscS2


Bullgryns with Slabshields and Mauls are expensive, but they're also rocking a 2+ save and are quite dangerous in combat.
I'd put them in meh/passable at the very least.

I'm torn on rough riders as well. On the plus side they became slightly cheaper and the Lance is no longer one-use only.
On the downside they're only A1 with the lance (horse-attacks don't really compensate) and actually became slower.
I'll need to playtest before I judge them.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/14 12:06:02


Post by: Mr.Omega


 iddy00711 wrote:
@ Mr.Omega

What's the issue with Sergeant Harker, re-rolling ones on shooting is excellent and for only 50 points!


We can already do that with the take aim order if its really neccessary for something like HWS' and re-rolling ones only is a bit of a meh buff to begin with, not really something you'd start a concrete strategy with. Maybe I'm being a little harsh, but considering most of the other force multipliers are under 50 pts (i.e Priests, Commissars, Officers) I don't see his appeal


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/14 12:15:15


Post by: daedalus


 Mr.Omega wrote:
This is how I see things right now


Command squads come out to the same price per model as a SWS (4 models * 6 pts = 24 pts; 6 models * 4 pts = 24 pts) and they can take four special weapons or a heavy weapon, are BS 3+, and have the advantage of being able to be crammed 3 to a Valkyrie as opposed to the SWS 2 squads. They're almost always demonstrably better (and unlike other comparisons made they're better in the same role) except when you want to take demolition charges or you think those extra two bodies are worth the BS hit (which is never).


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/14 12:39:57


Post by: iddy00711


Harker has an AOE re-roll, place him in the back with Manticores and Mortars, Lascannons or Conscript blobs. The more units he has around him, the more efficient he is for the points.

As for Manticores I'd place them in 'Meh' group for competitive games. Having only 4 shots and rolling 2D6, both limits the overall damage output and increases the randomness, which is something you need less of. They also have a limited role - taking out 2w TEQs and light tanks, which can be done better by more versatile and predictable units.

The one mission they would do well in is Big Guns, purely for the fact that it becomes harmless after turn 4.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/14 12:40:50


Post by: Mr.Omega


 daedalus wrote:
 Mr.Omega wrote:
This is how I see things right now


Command squads come out to the same price per model as a SWS (4 models * 6 pts = 24 pts; 6 models * 4 pts = 24 pts) and they can take four special weapons or a heavy weapon, are BS 3+, and have the advantage of being able to be crammed 3 to a Valkyrie as opposed to the SWS 2 squads. They're almost always demonstrably better (and unlike other comparisons made they're better in the same role) except when you want to take demolition charges or you think those extra two bodies are worth the BS hit (which is never).


Whoops, you're right and that's a compelling argument, I seem to have got it into my head that they were still scarce whereas you can pretty much spam them now as support units. GW might FAQ that in future but even then it'll probably be future-proofed by how spammable officers are, if they make officers a requirement like I think they might. I think they're worth moving to competitive on that basis, having 3 tooled up Command Squads pop out of a Valkyrie definitely sounds interesting