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Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 14:48:21


Post by: Biophysical


 Polonius wrote:
Four autocannon shots will do some work, but I'm not sure that range is as big a deal as it's been in past editions. Four decent shots is still worse than 20 S4 shots...


30 with volley guns and storm bolter.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 14:53:01


Post by: ross-128


I expect pure infantry lists to be extremely strong in this edition, at least as long as the list is built well.

We've gone over the ninja stuff that plasma scions can do extensively, 4/model for BS4+ infantry is amazing, the buff to FRFSRF is stronk, 4/model for heavy weapon teams is an absolute steal that makes them by far the most cost-effective way (if a bit fragile) to put a heavy weapon on the field.

Commissars are good, all the orders are good, wounding anything on 6s is a huge deal for the lasgun that was already wounding most infantry on 5/6 anyway, and heavy weapon teams keep their lasguns now so an infantry squad with a heavy weapon still has 9 lasguns. The only thing that could have improved on the "get more lasguns" front would be if we could give sergeants lasguns too.

Multi-wound hits not transferring between models also means that all the AT weapons in an opposing all-rounder list will be seeing anywhere from 1/2 to 5/6 of their damage potential wasted, damage potential that they're paying for with across-the-board points hikes on AT weapons.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 14:55:04


Post by: labmouse42


 Therion wrote:
labmouse42: We're in agreement of all the maximally points efficient stuff, but what do you think about the 'cool' stuff, meaning, Knights and super-heavy tanks, and other tanks? Have you found any of them to be even remotely competitive?

I briefly looked at the Baneblade variants, and the Stormlord seemed decent enough due to the sheer amount of shots, but it pales in comparison to the trucks point by point both in offense and defense.

I've not looked the dakka-per-point of those.
At a 500 point cost, it seems to be very intensive.
I could swap out Pask and the 2 executioners for a LoW in the list below. I don't know if a knight / super heavy tank would be able to throw out the same firepower.

Spoiler:
HQ
Task Commander Pask w/Executioner + 2 PC + HB + SB
Company Commander
Company Commander

Troops
Scion Squad : 4 PGs
Scion Squad : 4 PGs
Scion Squad : 4 PGs
Scion Squad : 4 Hot Shot Volley Guns
Scion Squad : 4 Hot Shot Volley Guns
Scion Squad : 4 Hot Shot Volley Guns

Elites
Commissar
Commissar

Heavy
LR Executioner w/2 PC sponsons, HB hull, SB
LR Executioner w/2 PC sponsons, HB hull, SB

Dedicated Transports
Taurox Prime : 2 Hot Shot Volley Guns, Taurox Gatling Gun, Storm Bolter
Taurox Prime : 2 Hot Shot Volley Guns, Taurox Gatling Gun, Storm Bolter
Taurox Prime : 2 Hot Shot Volley Guns, Taurox Gatling Gun, Storm Bolter
Taurox Prime : 2 Hot Shot Volley Guns, Taurox Gatling Gun, Storm Bolter
Taurox Prime : 2 Hot Shot Volley Guns, Taurox Gatling Gun, Storm Bolter


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 14:58:51


Post by: Polonius


The main use I can envision for the base Taurox is to hold a cheap squad (infantry or SWS) and skulk until a final dash for an objective.

It's a quick little thing, and cheap as transports go. The problem is that it pays just a bit too much for it's weapons, and suffers from what Warmachine players call Skornergy: when a model has two different and exclusive abilities, yet pays for both.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 15:06:38


Post by: ross-128


I don't know if it would be better classed as "cool" or "amusing", but technically 500 conscripts with 10 company commanders and 6 carefully-placed commissars is a valid 2000-point list.

Doesn't strike me as terribly practical, and I pity the guy who has to paint it (or maybe not, since they would clearly have more free time and money than me), but any matchup that ends with "vs 500 Conscripts" automatically has a ton of entertainment value.

Better bring your movement trays though!

Hmm, one interesting thing I note is Color Sergeant Kell can grant an additional order to any Imperial Guard officer, not just Creed. He might be useful for someone running a vox network, since at 50 points he might actually save you a couple commanders if you cluster three or more around him.

Since it's a flat +1 he can also do the interesting trick of turning a platoon commander into a company commander. That would be more useful if platoon commanders were HQs though, as it is, by the time you fill up your mandatory HQ slots you usually have plenty of Orders to sling around and have no need for tricks like that.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 15:11:35


Post by: vipoid


By the way, anyone got any thoughts on Yarrick?

He's expensive, but he is a Commissar who basically hands out Take Aim! to everything within 6".


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 15:13:37


Post by: Therion


 labmouse42 wrote:
 Therion wrote:
labmouse42: We're in agreement of all the maximally points efficient stuff, but what do you think about the 'cool' stuff, meaning, Knights and super-heavy tanks, and other tanks? Have you found any of them to be even remotely competitive?

I briefly looked at the Baneblade variants, and the Stormlord seemed decent enough due to the sheer amount of shots, but it pales in comparison to the trucks point by point both in offense and defense.

I've not looked the dakka-per-point of those.
At a 500 point cost, it seems to be very intensive.
I could swap out Pask and the 2 executioners for a LoW in the list below. I don't know if a knight / super heavy tank would be able to throw out the same firepower.

Spoiler:
HQ
Task Commander Pask w/Executioner + 2 PC + HB + SB
Company Commander
Company Commander

Troops
Scion Squad : 4 PGs
Scion Squad : 4 PGs
Scion Squad : 4 PGs
Scion Squad : 4 Hot Shot Volley Guns
Scion Squad : 4 Hot Shot Volley Guns
Scion Squad : 4 Hot Shot Volley Guns

Elites
Commissar
Commissar

Heavy
LR Executioner w/2 PC sponsons, HB hull, SB
LR Executioner w/2 PC sponsons, HB hull, SB

Dedicated Transports
Taurox Prime : 2 Hot Shot Volley Guns, Taurox Gatling Gun, Storm Bolter
Taurox Prime : 2 Hot Shot Volley Guns, Taurox Gatling Gun, Storm Bolter
Taurox Prime : 2 Hot Shot Volley Guns, Taurox Gatling Gun, Storm Bolter
Taurox Prime : 2 Hot Shot Volley Guns, Taurox Gatling Gun, Storm Bolter
Taurox Prime : 2 Hot Shot Volley Guns, Taurox Gatling Gun, Storm Bolter


I don't think the superheavy is worth it. Those executioners with Pask are pretty cool. You should mathhammer them against the PG Scions, to test the point by point Dakka difference. The Leman Russ survivability is pretty weak points wise, but you definately have the right setup, and Pask works there perfectly. It'll look great.

The only thing a Knight would do is act as a counter assault unit against assault armies. The titanic feet tap dance is pretty strong. It won't come anywhere close to dishing that firepower in the shooting phase.

I don't know if it would be better classed as "cool" or "amusing", but technically 500 conscripts with 10 company commanders and 6 carefully-placed commissars is a valid 2000-point list.


A Brimstone Horror has a 4+ invulnerable save and T3 1 wound, and costs just 2 points. You can take 200 of them and still have 1600 points of actual army left. I pity both the guy who has to assemble and paint that army, and the guy who has to play against it.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 15:19:02


Post by: slargy


 vipoid wrote:
By the way, anyone got any thoughts on Yarrick?

He's expensive, but he is a Commissar who basically hands out Take Aim! to everything within 6".


Why not keyword your army <catachan> and use sgt harker for 50pts for the same take aim effect?

On an unrelated note, i am torn between using yarrik or straken as my "Ash" converted model since my army isnt Renegades, they are simply the army of darkness.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 15:20:12


Post by: ross-128


It's a tough call. Obviously he's replacing a Commissar that you would take anyway, but even so 100 points is a steep premium even for someone as amazing as Yarrick.

He does fill an HQ slot and basically bring one Order with him, so I guess theoretically you could also drop a company commander to bring the premium down to 70 points.

Another plus side is that since he grants it by an aura instead of an actual order, it can stack with other orders like FRFSRF. Definitely powerful against Orks, when it turns into full re-rolls.

Still, 70 points even after replacing a Commander and a Commissar is pretty expensive. It's actually kind of hard to say if he's actually worth quite that many points, but maybe that's a sign that he's well-balanced.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 15:25:01


Post by: vipoid


slargy wrote:
Why not keyword your army <catachan> and use sgt harker for 50pts for the same take aim effect?


Basically because I like Yarrick and not Harker.

 ross-128 wrote:
It's a tough call. Obviously he's replacing a Commissar that you would take anyway, but even so 100 points is a steep premium even for someone as amazing as Yarrick.

He does fill an HQ slot and basically bring one Order with him, so I guess theoretically you could also drop a company commander to bring the premium down to 70 points.

Another plus side is that since he grants it by an aura instead of an actual order, it can stack with other orders like FRFSRF. Definitely powerful against Orks, when it turns into full re-rolls.

Still, 70 points even after replacing a Commander and a Commissar is pretty expensive. It's actually kind of hard to say if he's actually worth quite that many points, but maybe that's a sign that he's well-balanced.


Yeah, I know what you mean. I kinda want to use him because I just like him in general, but compared to Commissars and Company Commanders he's pretty damn pricey.

I'm also sad that he doesn't get back up anymore.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 15:34:08


Post by: Trickstick


 vipoid wrote:
I'm also sad that he doesn't get back up anymore.


He gets a 3+ roll to avoid his last wound being lost, which is pretty similar.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 15:47:05


Post by: Therion


labmouse42:

I was bored so I did the mathhammer on fully kitted Stormlord vs Leman Russ Executioner vs T7 3+

Stormlord at 592 points, going with vulcan megabolters, 3 heavy stubbers, 5 twin heavy bolters and 4 lascannons does a grand total of 11,5 unsaved wounds to T7 3+ multiwound targets.

A Leman Russ Executioner at 192 points does a puny 1,91 unsaved wounds at normal setting (no supercharge).

Stormlord does 1 wound for every 51,47 points it spends, while the Leman Russ has to spend 100,52 points to do just 1 wound.

The 3,08 Executioners you get for the Stormlord's price tag do get 37 wounds though total as opposed to the 26 on the Stormlord, so the survivability is higher.

Lastly, just to remind ourselves, the Gatling Taurox only needed to spend 36 points to put 1 wound on the T7 3+, and survivability wise they already get 61 wounds for the Stormlord's price tag.

Verdict? Compared to the trucks, both the Russes and the superheavies suck ass.

Note: LR Exec isn't quite as terrible with Pask's force multiplier effect, and they can supercharge when the going gets tough and they're going to die anyway, but the standard numbers aren't encouraging.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 15:54:08


Post by: Biophysical


It's the age of Imperial Guard technicals, and I am incredibly excited by the conversion potential in this regard (since the Taurox is begging for a conversion)


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 15:54:17


Post by: gungo


my guess is this is the edition of scions, plasma scions everywhere.

Also I am sad GW didn't make the punisher 40x str 5 shots..... I wanted to play with a shoe box full of dice and just dump it on the table every time I get into the shooting phase. It makes me worry the vulture I bought from forgeworld wont be as cool as it use to be. Hopefully Fw made rules for the sentinel powerlifter. I had to buy that model, because it is so freakin cool looking.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 15:56:27


Post by: vipoid


 Trickstick wrote:
He gets a 3+ roll to avoid his last wound being lost, which is pretty similar.


The main difference is that the current rule means he can easily be overkilled (since you have to roll against every wound).


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 16:04:41


Post by: labmouse42


 Therion wrote:
labmouse42: We're in agreement of all the maximally points efficient stuff, but what do you think about the 'cool' stuff, meaning, Knights and super-heavy tanks, and other tanks? Have you found any of them to be even remotely competitive?

I briefly looked at the Baneblade variants, and the Stormlord seemed decent enough due to the sheer amount of shots, but it pales in comparison to the trucks point by point both in offense and defense.
I did some mathahmmering, and you are welcome to check my work.

This is the summary of what I found. I ran a comparison of Wounds of Damage per Point. I ran the numbers vs Rhinos, MEQ and GEQ
The takeaways are the following
* Always take 4 sponsons. You are already paying for the platform, you might as well grab the extra weapons
* These tanks are really good at killing big creatures. They are MUCH less effective against smaller targets.
* As a general all around winner, I would give it to the hellhammer.
Spoiler:
Rhinos
Shadowsword : 32.31
Hellhammer : 36.88
Banesword : 41.69
BaneBlade : 43.10
Taurox Prime : 34.81

MEQ
Stormlord : 51.13
Hellhammer : 54.34
BaneBlade : 63.61
Taurox Prime : 23.21

GEQ
Stormlord : 30.67
HellHammer : 39.61
BaneHammer : 42.41
Taurox Prime : 9.72


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 16:10:31


Post by: Trickstick


The fact that you get -1 to hit for all of the super heavies really hurts, making me only want to use them as "sit back and shoot" units. I love the idea of a flamer covered hellhammer burning and charging units, but you really hurt your fire by moving. I guess I'll use the shadowsword to sit and shoot. I wonder what size targets it can reliably one shot with just the main gun.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 16:11:14


Post by: Therion


I checked the Tempestus Scions too.

10 Scions with 4 plasma guns, 5 hot shot lasguns, one plasma pistol, for 128 points, at 9" so plasma gun rapid fire range, do 2,86 unsaved wounds to T7 3+. They spend 44,75 points to do one wound.

10 Scions with 4 hot shot volley guns but otherwise the same setup do 3,018 wounds to T7 3+, being stronger, but since they're slightly more expensive they spend 45,06 points per wound meaning they're weaker but marginally so. However, the supercharge potential is situationally so good that I can't imagine skipping on plasma.

What does this mean? Gatling Taurox is better than either of the Scion setups, but considering we need troops units, and the 44,75 score is still really good (and when you supercharge the damage goes through the roof), and the survivability by wound per point is also decent (there too weaker than the Taurox), it's an excellent addition.

I should run these numbers all again against MEQ too, but I don't think it will change the pecking order in any way.

EDIT: Thanks labmouse for your numbers and links. It's hilarious how strong this little truck is.




Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 16:16:50


Post by: labmouse42


 Therion wrote:
10 Scions with 4 hot shot volley guns but otherwise the same setup do 3,018 wounds to T7 3+, being stronger, but since they're slightly more expensive they spend 45,06 points per wound meaning they're weaker but marginally so. However, the supercharge potential is situationally so good that I can't imagine skipping on plasma.
I can think of a lot of times. You won't always be double tapping plasma. There are times you want to reach out and touch someone at 24"
If you are facing an assault army, you don't want to bunch up your units. Having a longer range means you can spread them out a bit more.
I plan on mixing up my PG scions and hot shot volley guns.

Edit :
And thanks again for your math work. I've just ordered 2 more taurox and I plan on getting 2 more today LOL
I was shocked to see just how bad LRBTs are. I'm very sad that I own 3 now...


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 16:18:14


Post by: Therion


 labmouse42 wrote:
 Therion wrote:
10 Scions with 4 hot shot volley guns but otherwise the same setup do 3,018 wounds to T7 3+, being stronger, but since they're slightly more expensive they spend 45,06 points per wound meaning they're weaker but marginally so. However, the supercharge potential is situationally so good that I can't imagine skipping on plasma.
I can think of a lot of times. You won't always be double tapping plasma. There are times you want to reach out and touch someone at 24"
If you are facing an assault army, you don't want to bunch up your units. Having a longer range means you can spread them out a bit more.

I plan on mixing up my PG scions and hot shot volley guns.


Do you think the grav chute insertion counts as movement? I'm thinking along the lines of the hot shot volley gun being a heavy weapon, so would the -1 to hit apply when they alpha strike?

I definately agree the 9" rapid fire range is being generous, but on the other hand, against multiwound targets you'd probably super-charge quite often to get rid of the targets for good, and considering it changes your to wound rolls against T7 from 4+ to 3+, and doubles the damage, it really is a dramatic change in kill potential. They really are incredible when going all super saiyan. Hardest point by point hitters in the game that I've checked at least. The 4 rapid firing plasma guns go from doing 2,22 wounds to 5,92, bringing the squads total to an amazing 19,48 points per 1 unsaved wound by a T7 3+ target. FIVE times more efficient than a Leman Russ Executioner =)

And thanks again for your math work. I've just ordered 2 more taurox and I plan on getting 2 more today LOL
I was shocked to see just how bad LRBTs are. I'm very sad that I own 3 now...


Use the LRBTs against your friends for more fun times, and save the trucks for your enemies ^_^





Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 16:26:59


Post by: labmouse42


 Therion wrote:
Do you think the grav chute insertion counts as movement? I'm thinking along the lines of the hot shot volley gun being a heavy weapon, so would the -1 to hit apply when they alpha strike?
It probably does. At worst, thats a -1 to hit for one turn. At best you deploy them ahead of time where you want them to be effective.
The key here is you can take some of both. You are not limited to either-or.

 Therion wrote:
I definately agree the 9" rapid fire range is being generous, but on the other hand, against multiwound targets you'd probably super-charge quite often to get rid of the targets for good, and considering it changes your to wound rolls against T7 from 4+ to 3+, and doubles the damage, it really is a dramatic change in kill potential. They really are incredible when going all super saiyan. Hardest point by point hitters in the game that I've checked at least.
Agreed.
I think an army of nothing by scions and taurox would have some range problems. Having some long range tools is useful. The trick is finding a cost-effective solution for this role.

Good point on the super-charging. Especially as you greatly lower the risk (1/36) by issuing orders to the unit.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 16:29:02


Post by: Otto von Bludd


I'm going to have to agree with Mr. Perkins that mech guard is definitely back. I think some people are really underestimating what vehicles are bringing to the table compared to infantry. Consider a dual Heavy Flamer Chimera loaded with 3xflamer 1xheavy flamer shotgun vets and a platoon commander. It's going to be in your face turn two and turn one it will be popping smoke and possibly in cover. That is a unit that you cannot ignore, and yet it is very difficult to remove that chimera. Those heavy flamers also ignore all to hit penalties and are quite terrifying weapons.

I wouldn't personally put the heavy flamers on the Russ because I would be keeping it back while the Hellhounds, Flameras and Heavy Flamer sents charge in.

 axisofentropy wrote:
another perspective


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 16:31:12


Post by: Therion


 labmouse42 wrote:
 Therion wrote:
Do you think the grav chute insertion counts as movement? I'm thinking along the lines of the hot shot volley gun being a heavy weapon, so would the -1 to hit apply when they alpha strike?
It probably does. At worst, thats a -1 to hit for one turn. At best you deploy them ahead of time where you want them to be effective.
The key here is you can take some of both. You are not limited to either-or.

 Therion wrote:
I definately agree the 9" rapid fire range is being generous, but on the other hand, against multiwound targets you'd probably super-charge quite often to get rid of the targets for good, and considering it changes your to wound rolls against T7 from 4+ to 3+, and doubles the damage, it really is a dramatic change in kill potential. They really are incredible when going all super saiyan. Hardest point by point hitters in the game that I've checked at least.
Agreed.
I think an army of nothing by scions and taurox would have some range problems. Having some long range tools is useful. The trick is finding a cost-effective solution for this role.

Good point on the super-charging. Especially as you greatly lower the risk (1/36) by issuing orders to the unit.


I agree there should be something more, but I'm not sure what it could be that wouldn't absolutely suck in comparison. The Taurox' are quite fast though, and the Scions deploy wherever they want, so I'm not that sure they'll struggle with range that much.

Heavy weapon squads will just get shot to death, but maybe it doesn't matter since they're really cheap? Infantry platoons are cheap but they don't really add you any reach that you didn't already have (they just add objective holders for a bargain basement price).

Maybe indirect fire? Wyverns and Manticores? They'll reach anything anywhere, and once again Yarrick bubble buffs all of their accuracy if he's camping there.




Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 16:33:12


Post by: labmouse42


 Therion wrote:
I agree there should be something more, but I'm not sure what it could be that wouldn't absolutely suck in comparison. The Taurox' are quite fast though, and the Scions deploy wherever they want, so I'm not that sure they'll struggle with range that much.
I wonder how HWS's stack up here...
They are stupid cheap right now (4 points per squad + weapon cost) but are very fragile.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 16:35:16


Post by: Trickstick


 Therion wrote:
Do you think the grav chute insertion counts as movement? I'm thinking along the lines of the hot shot volley gun being a heavy weapon, so would the -1 to hit apply when they alpha strike?


Disembarking counts as movement even if your don't move afterwards (page 183). So yeah, I'm not such a fan of the volley gun. I guess if you want to use scions for gunline, but it seems a waste of the awesome deepstrike.

I am rather concerned about the amount of table space what will be outside 9" of an enemy. That could be very hard to find in some games, 9" covers a lot of space.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 16:39:45


Post by: Therion


EDIT: I'm recalculating because I don't believe it

Yep, I miscalculated on the Wyvern. It isn't that great.

Manticore is efficient against all multiwound targets, and doesn't cost that much at all, but what I don't inherently like about it is that it sucks if there are no such targets available. In an army like this it might be a good place to use command re-rolls though (if you roll some 1's for the 2D6 shots).

It does have 120" range, and pays only 39,7 points to do 1 wound on T7 3+ multiwound, so if range to tough targets was a concern, there you go. Have three.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 16:45:07


Post by: Martel732


 Otto von Bludd wrote:
I'm going to have to agree with Mr. Perkins that mech guard is definitely back. I think some people are really underestimating what vehicles are bringing to the table compared to infantry. Consider a dual Heavy Flamer Chimera loaded with 3xflamer 1xheavy flamer shotgun vets and a platoon commander. It's going to be in your face turn two and turn one it will be popping smoke and possibly in cover. That is a unit that you cannot ignore, and yet it is very difficult to remove that chimera. Those heavy flamers also ignore all to hit penalties and are quite terrifying weapons.

I wouldn't personally put the heavy flamers on the Russ because I would be keeping it back while the Hellhounds, Flameras and Heavy Flamer sents charge in.

 axisofentropy wrote:
another perspective


But Perkins is clearly wrong because Master of Ordinance says everything got nerfed. Russes were unplayable in 7th. Nowhere to go but up.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 16:52:30


Post by: Red Corsair


Martel732 wrote:
 Otto von Bludd wrote:
I'm going to have to agree with Mr. Perkins that mech guard is definitely back. I think some people are really underestimating what vehicles are bringing to the table compared to infantry. Consider a dual Heavy Flamer Chimera loaded with 3xflamer 1xheavy flamer shotgun vets and a platoon commander. It's going to be in your face turn two and turn one it will be popping smoke and possibly in cover. That is a unit that you cannot ignore, and yet it is very difficult to remove that chimera. Those heavy flamers also ignore all to hit penalties and are quite terrifying weapons.

I wouldn't personally put the heavy flamers on the Russ because I would be keeping it back while the Hellhounds, Flameras and Heavy Flamer sents charge in.

 axisofentropy wrote:
another perspective


But Perkins is clearly wrong because Master of Ordinance says everything got nerfed. Russes were unplayable in 7th. Nowhere to go but up.


Bret should use numbers and facts to make his arguments rather then making an argument from authority based on his win in an edition where nobody really respects winning that much due to how busted it was. His leman russ comment is just wrong. He didn't even pick a good load out. 51 pts just in HF's lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Therion wrote:
EDIT: I'm recalculating because I don't believe it

Yep, I miscalculated on the Wyvern. It isn't that great.

Manticore is efficient against all multiwound targets, and doesn't cost that much at all, but what I don't inherently like about it is that it sucks if there are no such targets available. In an army like this it might be a good place to use command re-rolls though (if you roll some 1's for the 2D6 shots).

It does have 120" range, and pays only 39,7 points to do 1 wound on T7 3+ multiwound, so if range to tough targets was a concern, there you go. Have three.



I'm taking one manticore. seems like a solid objective campers behind/in some heavy cover in your back field. It also is good at throwing shots at the enemies units that fulfill a similar role to its own.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 16:58:47


Post by: Therion


 Red Corsair wrote:


I'm taking one manticore. seems like a solid objective campers behind/in some heavy cover in your back field. It also is good at throwing shots at the enemies units that fulfill a similar role to its own.


Can't see any fault in that logic. It's a tactical advantage to have unit(s) that fire indirectly, and if they're points efficient, even better.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 17:00:58


Post by: Red Corsair


 Therion wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:


I'm taking one manticore. seems like a solid objective campers behind/in some heavy cover in your back field. It also is good at throwing shots at the enemies units that fulfill a similar role to its own.


Can't see any fault in that logic. It's a tactical advantage to have unit(s) that fire indirectly, and if they're points efficient, even better.


Well I also need to take some variety for sanity sake, I love scions and Tprimes but lol, I can't be that guy...


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 17:06:31


Post by: Therion


 Red Corsair wrote:
 Therion wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:


I'm taking one manticore. seems like a solid objective campers behind/in some heavy cover in your back field. It also is good at throwing shots at the enemies units that fulfill a similar role to its own.


Can't see any fault in that logic. It's a tactical advantage to have unit(s) that fire indirectly, and if they're points efficient, even better.


Well I also need to take some variety for sanity sake, I love scions and Tprimes but lol, I can't be that guy...


Yep. Someone will be that guy though.

I'll have a mix of all types of stuff as well. But only the good stuff. We just have to go through everything with a calculator to see what our options are.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 17:07:46


Post by: Martel732


"Bret should use numbers and facts to make his arguments rather then making an argument from authority based on his win in an edition where nobody really respects winning that much due to how busted it was. His leman russ comment is just wrong. He didn't even pick a good load out. 51 pts just in HF's lol."

I agree, but neither he nor Master of Ordinance uses numbers. Without numbers, I know whom I'm going with.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 17:13:15


Post by: labmouse42


For heavy weapon teams. They are specialized, but work very well for what they do. In the AM army, they are pretty much the peak of efficiency for the LC, ML, AC, Mortar or HB as your entry cost is 4 points per weapon.
If you needed to add some extra anti-armor into your list, throwing in a squad or two of these is a bonus. Extra Mortar would help to clear out hordes. At 27 points for 3 mortar squads they are dirt cheap too.


Rhino
LC is 24.68
ML is 30.85
AC are 32.57
Mortars : 46.28
HB : 48

MEQ
LC is 69.12
ML is 86.4
AC are 48.85
Mortars : 30.85
HB : 24

GEQ
LC is 57.6
ML is 41.14
AC are 23.45
Mortars : 11.57
HB : 14.4


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 17:14:04


Post by: Red Corsair


 Therion wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
 Therion wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:


I'm taking one manticore. seems like a solid objective campers behind/in some heavy cover in your back field. It also is good at throwing shots at the enemies units that fulfill a similar role to its own.


Can't see any fault in that logic. It's a tactical advantage to have unit(s) that fire indirectly, and if they're points efficient, even better.


Well I also need to take some variety for sanity sake, I love scions and Tprimes but lol, I can't be that guy...


Yep. Someone will be that guy though. In fact, someone will be the guy with nothing but grav chuting Plasma Scions that super-charge on first turn.

I'll have a mix of all types of stuff as well. But only the good stuff. We just have to go through everything with a calculator to see what our options are.



Well I was discussing this with my brother, who loves hordes lol so he is happy right now. He made a solid point, if the enemy has a decent screen, the scions only army is screwed. Or take for example orks. I can get 300 shoota boys for only 1800 pts So you need to mix in some primes and maybe a counter assault unit IMO. I actually think orks are the best army now. Was thinking that initial conclusion would change but so far nothing is telling me so. They are in a very strong spot.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 17:15:05


Post by: labmouse42


 Red Corsair wrote:
I'm taking one manticore. seems like a solid objective campers behind/in some heavy cover in your back field. It also is good at throwing shots at the enemies units that fulfill a similar role to its own.
As a fair heads up. The way objectives now work is the player with the most models within 3" of the objective controls it. A single can easily lose the objective.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 17:17:07


Post by: Red Corsair


Martel732 wrote:
"Bret should use numbers and facts to make his arguments rather then making an argument from authority based on his win in an edition where nobody really respects winning that much due to how busted it was. His leman russ comment is just wrong. He didn't even pick a good load out. 51 pts just in HF's lol."

I agree, but neither he nor Master of Ordinance uses numbers. Without numbers, I know whom I'm going with.


Go with neither, I can't even count how many times Bret has claimed he had things figured out and was wrong. He usually wins based on tournament format flaws like time. I mean he is called slow play Bret now by a fair amount of opponents. I think in the LVO final his opponent literally played for maybe 15 minutes while Bret took over and hour...


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 17:19:36


Post by: Therion


 Red Corsair wrote:
 Therion wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
 Therion wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:


I'm taking one manticore. seems like a solid objective campers behind/in some heavy cover in your back field. It also is good at throwing shots at the enemies units that fulfill a similar role to its own.


Can't see any fault in that logic. It's a tactical advantage to have unit(s) that fire indirectly, and if they're points efficient, even better.


Well I also need to take some variety for sanity sake, I love scions and Tprimes but lol, I can't be that guy...


Yep. Someone will be that guy though. In fact, someone will be the guy with nothing but grav chuting Plasma Scions that super-charge on first turn.

I'll have a mix of all types of stuff as well. But only the good stuff. We just have to go through everything with a calculator to see what our options are.



Well I was discussing this with my brother, who loves hordes lol so he is happy right now. He made a solid point, if the enemy has a decent screen, the scions only army is screwed. Or take for example orks. I can get 300 shoota boys for only 1800 pts So you need to mix in some primes and maybe a counter assault unit IMO. I actually think orks are the best army now. Was thinking that initial conclusion would change but so far nothing is telling me so. They are in a very strong spot.


You're absolutely right. The counter assault unit is something that I'd prefer, both visually and gameplay wise. I've always liked hybrid armies because they give you the tactical advantage. If an enemy comes to you, you can sit back and shoot and then counter-assault just before they hit you, or after they've hit you. If an enemy doesn't come to you, you don't need to try to out-shoot them with your efficiency because your assault units gives you another win condition.

I just don't know what an efficient assault unit for <Imperial> armies is. It'll take some time to go through every <Imperial> unit. Thunderwolves is what I used in the past. I had a brief look at them and they pack a punch with lightning claws but aren't exactly cheap either. I'd really like the unit to have some speed so they can advance if need be, instead of being relegated to purely "wait here and assault if something comes here" duty. Terminators, because of their teleport strike, are something that need to be mathhammered also.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 17:20:39


Post by: Red Corsair


 labmouse42 wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
I'm taking one manticore. seems like a solid objective campers behind/in some heavy cover in your back field. It also is good at throwing shots at the enemies units that fulfill a similar role to its own.
As a fair heads up. The way objectives now work is the player with the most models within 3" of the objective controls it. A single can easily lose the objective.


Wow, thanks for the heads up thats a major change and I am not sure I like it. This just makes infantry that much better I mean this edition is really pushing people into infantry only. The more we crunch it the worse it gets. Why waste points on a transport even in guard when Move Move Move is guaranteed to resolve and get you there now?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 17:21:33


Post by: Trickstick


 labmouse42 wrote:
For heavy weapon teams. They are specialized, but work very well for what they do. In the AM army, they are pretty much the peak of efficiency for the LC, ML, AC, Mortar or HB as your entry cost is 4 points per weapon.
If you needed to add some extra anti-armor into your list, throwing in a squad or two of these is a bonus. Extra Mortar would help to clear out hordes. At 27 points for 3 mortar squads they are dirt cheap too.


With the split fire changes, along with the wound allocation changes, I think that mixed HWSs are really the way to go. Put a ML/LC along with 2 HB/Mortar. You can allocate to a cheaper weapon, unlike a squad of 3 LC where they can reduce fire power with 1 kill. You can split fire much more efficiently, shooting 1 LC at a time instead of trying to guess how many are needed out of your 3. You can spread your LCs around a larger area, instead of all in one space that can be hidden from.

Mixed squads are really the way to go. I would put LCs in infantry squads to keep them safe, but then you are giving up better orders for frfsrf and you will get into melee much quicker too.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 17:22:33


Post by: Red Corsair


 Therion wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
 Therion wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
 Therion wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:


I'm taking one manticore. seems like a solid objective campers behind/in some heavy cover in your back field. It also is good at throwing shots at the enemies units that fulfill a similar role to its own.


Can't see any fault in that logic. It's a tactical advantage to have unit(s) that fire indirectly, and if they're points efficient, even better.


Well I also need to take some variety for sanity sake, I love scions and Tprimes but lol, I can't be that guy...


Yep. Someone will be that guy though. In fact, someone will be the guy with nothing but grav chuting Plasma Scions that super-charge on first turn.

I'll have a mix of all types of stuff as well. But only the good stuff. We just have to go through everything with a calculator to see what our options are.



Well I was discussing this with my brother, who loves hordes lol so he is happy right now. He made a solid point, if the enemy has a decent screen, the scions only army is screwed. Or take for example orks. I can get 300 shoota boys for only 1800 pts So you need to mix in some primes and maybe a counter assault unit IMO. I actually think orks are the best army now. Was thinking that initial conclusion would change but so far nothing is telling me so. They are in a very strong spot.


You're absolutely right. The counter assault unit is something that I'd prefer, both visually and gameplay wise. I've always liked hybrid armies because they give you the tactical advantage. If an enemy comes to you, you can sit back and shoot and then counter-assault just before they hit you, or after they've hit you. If an enemy doesn't come to you, you don't need to try to out-shoot them with your efficiency because your assault units gives you another win condition.

I just don't know what an efficient assault unit for <Imperial> armies is. It'll take some time to go through every <Imperial> unit. Thunderwolves is what I used in the past. I had a brief look at them and they pack a punch with lightning claws but aren't exactly cheap either. I'd really like the unit to have some speed so they can advance if need be, instead of being relegated to purely "wait here and assault if something comes here" duty. Terminators, because of their teleport strike, are something that need to be mathhammered.


I haven't gotten around to checking but I heard assassins are really cheat and solid not. No limit to the number you can take either. maybe a half dozen of these could help?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 17:24:28


Post by: Trickstick


 Therion wrote:
I just don't know what an efficient assault unit for <Imperial> armies is...


I'm hoping that Bullgryns are at least not horrible in terms of efficiency. Can take orders, get good mauls and mix slab/brute shields to counter both high and low AP weaponry. They also gain the benefits of priests, commissars and all the other buff units we can use, unlike things such as terminators.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 17:26:14


Post by: Therion


 Red Corsair wrote:
 Therion wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
 Therion wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
 Therion wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:


I'm taking one manticore. seems like a solid objective campers behind/in some heavy cover in your back field. It also is good at throwing shots at the enemies units that fulfill a similar role to its own.


Can't see any fault in that logic. It's a tactical advantage to have unit(s) that fire indirectly, and if they're points efficient, even better.


Well I also need to take some variety for sanity sake, I love scions and Tprimes but lol, I can't be that guy...


Yep. Someone will be that guy though. In fact, someone will be the guy with nothing but grav chuting Plasma Scions that super-charge on first turn.

I'll have a mix of all types of stuff as well. But only the good stuff. We just have to go through everything with a calculator to see what our options are.



Well I was discussing this with my brother, who loves hordes lol so he is happy right now. He made a solid point, if the enemy has a decent screen, the scions only army is screwed. Or take for example orks. I can get 300 shoota boys for only 1800 pts So you need to mix in some primes and maybe a counter assault unit IMO. I actually think orks are the best army now. Was thinking that initial conclusion would change but so far nothing is telling me so. They are in a very strong spot.


You're absolutely right. The counter assault unit is something that I'd prefer, both visually and gameplay wise. I've always liked hybrid armies because they give you the tactical advantage. If an enemy comes to you, you can sit back and shoot and then counter-assault just before they hit you, or after they've hit you. If an enemy doesn't come to you, you don't need to try to out-shoot them with your efficiency because your assault units gives you another win condition.

I just don't know what an efficient assault unit for <Imperial> armies is. It'll take some time to go through every <Imperial> unit. Thunderwolves is what I used in the past. I had a brief look at them and they pack a punch with lightning claws but aren't exactly cheap either. I'd really like the unit to have some speed so they can advance if need be, instead of being relegated to purely "wait here and assault if something comes here" duty. Terminators, because of their teleport strike, are something that need to be mathhammered.


I haven't gotten around to checking but I heard assassins are really cheat and solid not. No limit to the number you can take either. maybe a half dozen of these could help?


Yup. I was always planning on having one Culexus, depending on how the meta shapes up. 85 points and he stops Horror units from manifesting Smite completely, and puts a dent in good psykers chances as well. On top of that, he shoots and fights decently enough. People need 6's to hit him both with shooting and close combat, and he has 5 wounds. I wonder what kind of tarpit a couple of these could make, since people can't hit them.

Eversor is the actual fighter, and dirt cheap too. 70 points for a guy with 6 wounds, a bunch of special rules, and 8 attacks with good close combat weapons on the charge. A couple of these could do the trick too.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 17:26:16


Post by: Martel732


 Red Corsair wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"Bret should use numbers and facts to make his arguments rather then making an argument from authority based on his win in an edition where nobody really respects winning that much due to how busted it was. His leman russ comment is just wrong. He didn't even pick a good load out. 51 pts just in HF's lol."

I agree, but neither he nor Master of Ordinance uses numbers. Without numbers, I know whom I'm going with.


Go with neither, I can't even count how many times Bret has claimed he had things figured out and was wrong. He usually wins based on tournament format flaws like time. I mean he is called slow play Bret now by a fair amount of opponents. I think in the LVO final his opponent literally played for maybe 15 minutes while Bret took over and hour...


Why bother even playing at that point?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 17:32:02


Post by: Aaranis


 Therion wrote:

You're absolutely right. The counter assault unit is something that I'd prefer, both visually and gameplay wise. I've always liked hybrid armies because they give you the tactical advantage. If an enemy comes to you, you can sit back and shoot and then counter-assault just before they hit you, or after they've hit you. If an enemy doesn't come to you, you don't need to try to out-shoot them with your efficiency because your assault units gives you another win condition.

I just don't know what an efficient assault unit for <Imperial> armies is. It'll take some time to go through every <Imperial> unit. Thunderwolves is what I used in the past. I had a brief look at them and they pack a punch with lightning claws but aren't exactly cheap either. I'd really like the unit to have some speed so they can advance if need be, instead of being relegated to purely "wait here and assault if something comes here" duty. Terminators, because of their teleport strike, are something that need to be mathhammered also.


May I suggest something from the Mechanicus to fill that role ?

The file I attached is the profiles for the Sicarians, the Infiltrators cost 130 pts/5 guys for the Taser Goads and Flechette Blasters loadout. I can tell you the costs of the other loadouts and the ones from the Ruststalker if you want.

[Thumb - Sicarians.jpg]


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 17:32:17


Post by: Trickstick


 Red Corsair wrote:
Go with neither, I can't even count how many times Bret has claimed he had things figured out and was wrong. He usually wins based on tournament format flaws like time. I mean he is called slow play Bret now by a fair amount of opponents. I think in the LVO final his opponent literally played for maybe 15 minutes while Bret took over and hour...


Wait, major tournaments don't use something like round timers to stop slow play? That seems really open to abuse.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 17:35:27


Post by: Red Corsair


Hmmm, callexus does meh damage but is a solid speed bump since you hit him on 6+ now and he has 5 wounds with a 4++ Essentially he can answer the green tide equation since he can charge them and force them to fall back, hence disallowing them from shooting and assaulting. Rinse repeat.

It takes 120 strength 4 attacks to kill him... you have a melee range of 1"... I think I solved it....

So he is 85 points, eversore is 70 and much killier but he will definitely die to a mob of orks UNLESS you get a cheaky flank and they can't pile in with many, that said I could see running a pair up either flank and pulling a unit in two directs with dual charges each round. You will do more damage and have a similar effect to the callexus. Callexus is still the better choice though. He can't be killed efficiently by your opponent and can repeatedly force them to disengage which essentially loses them a round of actions.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 17:49:09


Post by: Therion


 Red Corsair wrote:
Hmmm, callexus does meh damage but is a solid speed bump since you hit him on 6+ now and he has 5 wounds with a 4++ Essentially he can answer the green tide equation since he can charge them and force them to fall back, hence disallowing them from shooting and assaulting. Rinse repeat.

It takes 120 strength 4 attacks to kill him... you have a melee range of 1"... I think I solved it....

So he is 85 points, eversore is 70 and much killier but he will definitely die to a mob of orks UNLESS you get a cheaky flank and they can't pile in with many, that said I could see running a pair up either flank and pulling a unit in two directs with dual charges each round. You will do more damage and have a similar effect to the callexus. Callexus is still the better choice though. He can't be killed efficiently by your opponent and can repeatedly force them to disengage which essentially loses them a round of actions.


They're both great. Culexus, while serving as a shooter and a speed bump, totally ruins psychic heavy armies. Eversor has so good weapons and the bio-meltdown that I'm pretty sure point by point he's decent in point by point efficiency.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 17:51:56


Post by: gungo


 Red Corsair wrote:
Hmmm, callexus does meh damage but is a solid speed bump since you hit him on 6+ now and he has 5 wounds with a 4++ Essentially he can answer the green tide equation since he can charge them and force them to fall back, hence disallowing them from shooting and assaulting. Rinse repeat.

It takes 120 strength 4 attacks to kill him... you have a melee range of 1"... I think I solved it....


You do realize a single 30 choppaboy unit does 120 atks in combat, they get to pile in and consolidate. This does not include if a waaagh banner is in range which is another 30 atks and this does not include shooting with 30 str4 pistols their next shooting phase. Why would they fall back with leadership 30 and falling back doesn't stop shooting?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 17:53:01


Post by: Fenris-77


 Therion wrote:

You're absolutely right. The counter assault unit is something that I'd prefer, both visually and gameplay wise. I've always liked hybrid armies because they give you the tactical advantage. If an enemy comes to you, you can sit back and shoot and then counter-assault just before they hit you, or after they've hit you. If an enemy doesn't come to you, you don't need to try to out-shoot them with your efficiency because your assault units gives you another win condition.

I just don't know what an efficient assault unit for <Imperial> armies is. It'll take some time to go through every <Imperial> unit. Thunderwolves is what I used in the past. I had a brief look at them and they pack a punch with lightning claws but aren't exactly cheap either. I'd really like the unit to have some speed so they can advance if need be, instead of being relegated to purely "wait here and assault if something comes here" duty. Terminators, because of their teleport strike, are something that need to be mathhammered also.
Death Company seem to be pretty hitty for the points. Rerolls struff with Lemartes, mobile with the jump packs, lots of weapon options, and Black Rage makes them a little more survivable than normal MEQs. They're not quite the beasts in HtH that Berserkers are, but they're pretty solid.

I'm planning to take a look at GK Interceptors too, but I doubt they'll be as effiicient, or even efficient period. Terminators are also something I'll be looking at. I think DS is very much the way to go rather than transports (read Pods) and Teminators do pack a punch (and I like the RF Storrmbolters).


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 18:02:00


Post by: Biophysical


 Trickstick wrote:
 labmouse42 wrote:
For heavy weapon teams. They are specialized, but work very well for what they do. In the AM army, they are pretty much the peak of efficiency for the LC, ML, AC, Mortar or HB as your entry cost is 4 points per weapon.
If you needed to add some extra anti-armor into your list, throwing in a squad or two of these is a bonus. Extra Mortar would help to clear out hordes. At 27 points for 3 mortar squads they are dirt cheap too.


With the split fire changes, along with the wound allocation changes, I think that mixed HWSs are really the way to go. Put a ML/LC along with 2 HB/Mortar. You can allocate to a cheaper weapon, unlike a squad of 3 LC where they can reduce fire power with 1 kill. You can split fire much more efficiently, shooting 1 LC at a time instead of trying to guess how many are needed out of your 3. You can spread your LCs around a larger area, instead of all in one space that can be hidden from.

Mixed squads are really the way to go. I would put LCs in infantry squads to keep them safe, but then you are giving up better orders for frfsrf and you will get into melee much quicker too.


I think mortars get their own squads, but I do like mixing Heavy Bolters in with Lascannons or Missile Launchers. The mortars don't have to worry about LOS, so they can occupy less useful real estate and still contribute maximally. Additionally, since they can shoot almost anywhere, they are pretty flexible in their target, so you can fire last and see where they're needed the most.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 18:10:04


Post by: Fenris-77


3 Hvy Squads with HBs and orders enough to reroll all of them every turn is less than 200 pts. Efficient? I dunno, probably not like the TP, but that's a special case.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 18:19:13


Post by: Biophysical


 Trickstick wrote:
 Therion wrote:
I just don't know what an efficient assault unit for <Imperial> armies is...


I'm hoping that Bullgryns are at least not horrible in terms of efficiency. Can take orders, get good mauls and mix slab/brute shields to counter both high and low AP weaponry. They also gain the benefits of priests, commissars and all the other buff units we can use, unlike things such as terminators.


Bullgryns, Ogryns, and Ratlings don't have the <Regiment> keyword. They do have the Militarum Auxilia keyword, though. Does this count as their Regiment, as Militarum Tempestus does for Scions? I'm thinking it does, so the issuing officer must have that Regiment keyword as well. The rules say you can't make <Regiment> be Militarum Tempestus, but I think you could take an officer and make their regiment be Militarum Auxilia, essentially a liaison officer with the weirdos, which is well supported in the fluff.

This is worthwhile, I think, because the Ogryn variants seem like they can really make use of the orders. Both Move! Move! Move! And Fix Bayonets! are pretty strong for supporting the big guys.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 18:31:08


Post by: Red Corsair


gungo wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
Hmmm, callexus does meh damage but is a solid speed bump since you hit him on 6+ now and he has 5 wounds with a 4++ Essentially he can answer the green tide equation since he can charge them and force them to fall back, hence disallowing them from shooting and assaulting. Rinse repeat.

It takes 120 strength 4 attacks to kill him... you have a melee range of 1"... I think I solved it....


You do realize a single 30 choppaboy unit does 120 atks in combat, they get to pile in and consolidate. This does not include if a waaagh banner is in range which is another 30 atks and this does not include shooting with 30 str4 pistols their next shooting phase. Why would they fall back with leadership 30 and falling back doesn't stop shooting?


I bolded the part your clearly missed in my post. A base is 1" your getting a max of 10 orks when the assassin charges in after you pile in. good luck with that.

BTW your gonna want to mix your ork boys for this reason, better to get more shots in some cases especially when your never getting a full strength mob within melee range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Therion wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
Hmmm, callexus does meh damage but is a solid speed bump since you hit him on 6+ now and he has 5 wounds with a 4++ Essentially he can answer the green tide equation since he can charge them and force them to fall back, hence disallowing them from shooting and assaulting. Rinse repeat.

It takes 120 strength 4 attacks to kill him... you have a melee range of 1"... I think I solved it....

So he is 85 points, eversore is 70 and much killier but he will definitely die to a mob of orks UNLESS you get a cheaky flank and they can't pile in with many, that said I could see running a pair up either flank and pulling a unit in two directs with dual charges each round. You will do more damage and have a similar effect to the callexus. Callexus is still the better choice though. He can't be killed efficiently by your opponent and can repeatedly force them to disengage which essentially loses them a round of actions.


They're both great. Culexus, while serving as a shooter and a speed bump, totally ruins psychic heavy armies. Eversor has so good weapons and the bio-meltdown that I'm pretty sure point by point he's decent in point by point efficiency.



Yea I might run all but the calledus, she was always my least favorite. I think it's the most flexible, charge them in on either flank of a mob and split their pile ins where they are thinest. Vindicare can pop support characters or force them inside vehicles making their buffs go away either way. I imagine a pair of vindicares will kill most characters quickly. Luckily tempestors are expendable themselves


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 18:52:03


Post by: Trickstick


Biophysical wrote:
Bullgryns, Ogryns, and Ratlings don't have the <Regiment> keyword. They do have the Militarum Auxilia keyword, though. Does this count as their Regiment, as Militarum Tempestus does for Scions? I'm thinking it does, so the issuing officer must have that Regiment keyword as well. The rules say you can't make <Regiment> be Militarum Tempestus, but I think you could take an officer and make their regiment be Militarum Auxilia, essentially a liaison officer with the weirdos, which is well supported in the fluff.

This is worthwhile, I think, because the Ogryn variants seem like they can really make use of the orders. Both Move! Move! Move! And Fix Bayonets! are pretty strong for supporting the big guys.


I hadn't spotted that. I think that the auxilia thing could work, but it is definitely gamey and not intended to work like that. I'll just avoid doing it.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 19:02:30


Post by: Biophysical


 Trickstick wrote:
Biophysical wrote:
Bullgryns, Ogryns, and Ratlings don't have the <Regiment> keyword. They do have the Militarum Auxilia keyword, though. Does this count as their Regiment, as Militarum Tempestus does for Scions? I'm thinking it does, so the issuing officer must have that Regiment keyword as well. The rules say you can't make <Regiment> be Militarum Tempestus, but I think you could take an officer and make their regiment be Militarum Auxilia, essentially a liaison officer with the weirdos, which is well supported in the fluff.

This is worthwhile, I think, because the Ogryn variants seem like they can really make use of the orders. Both Move! Move! Move! And Fix Bayonets! are pretty strong for supporting the big guys.


I hadn't spotted that. I think that the auxilia thing could work, but it is definitely gamey and not intended to work like that. I'll just avoid doing it.


RAW it works, and it's in synch with the background. A single liaison officer feels totally okay to me. Making your whole army of guys "Auxilia" so all your officers can issue orders to Ogryns feels off. I guess if GW rules that "Auxilia" isn't a Regiment, there's no orders one way or another.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 19:10:03


Post by: gungo


 Red Corsair wrote:
gungo wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
Hmmm, callexus does meh damage but is a solid speed bump since you hit him on 6+ now and he has 5 wounds with a 4++ Essentially he can answer the green tide equation since he can charge them and force them to fall back, hence disallowing them from shooting and assaulting. Rinse repeat.

It takes 120 strength 4 attacks to kill him... you have a melee range of 1"... I think I solved it....


You do realize a single 30 choppaboy unit does 120 atks in combat, they get to pile in and consolidate. This does not include if a waaagh banner is in range which is another 30 atks and this does not include shooting with 30 str4 pistols their next shooting phase. Why would they fall back with leadership 30 and falling back doesn't stop shooting?


I bolded the part your clearly missed in my post. A base is 1" your getting a max of 10 orks when the assassin charges in after you pile in. good luck with that.

BTW your gonna want to mix your ork boys for this reason, better to get more shots in some cases especially when your never getting a full strength mob within melee range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Therion wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
Hmmm, callexus does meh damage but is a solid speed bump since you hit him on 6+ now and he has 5 wounds with a 4++ Essentially he can answer the green tide equation since he can charge them and force them to fall back, hence disallowing them from shooting and assaulting. Rinse repeat.

It takes 120 strength 4 attacks to kill him... you have a melee range of 1"... I think I solved it....

So he is 85 points, eversore is 70 and much killier but he will definitely die to a mob of orks UNLESS you get a cheaky flank and they can't pile in with many, that said I could see running a pair up either flank and pulling a unit in two directs with dual charges each round. You will do more damage and have a similar effect to the callexus. Callexus is still the better choice though. He can't be killed efficiently by your opponent and can repeatedly force them to disengage which essentially loses them a round of actions.


They're both great. Culexus, while serving as a shooter and a speed bump, totally ruins psychic heavy armies. Eversor has so good weapons and the bio-meltdown that I'm pretty sure point by point he's decent in point by point efficiency.



Yea I might run all but the calledus, she was always my least favorite. I think it's the most flexible, charge them in on either flank of a mob and split their pile ins where they are thinest. Vindicare can pop support characters or force them inside vehicles making their buffs go away either way. I imagine a pair of vindicares will kill most characters quickly. Luckily tempestors are expendable themselves


I believe its not 1in from the target its 1 in from a model in contact with the target. try it at home you can get ALOT more models in range with at least 3 layers of orks. So the culexus dies in maybe tops 2 turns with 2 rounds of combat each turn and a round of shooting. Not a huge deal with a squad that costs 150.

The culexus is a beatstick still. But you act as if an ork player is going to flee combat with a squad of orks vs them and that wont happen.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 19:10:52


Post by: Spinner


Biophysical wrote:
 Trickstick wrote:
Biophysical wrote:
Bullgryns, Ogryns, and Ratlings don't have the <Regiment> keyword. They do have the Militarum Auxilia keyword, though. Does this count as their Regiment, as Militarum Tempestus does for Scions? I'm thinking it does, so the issuing officer must have that Regiment keyword as well. The rules say you can't make <Regiment> be Militarum Tempestus, but I think you could take an officer and make their regiment be Militarum Auxilia, essentially a liaison officer with the weirdos, which is well supported in the fluff.

This is worthwhile, I think, because the Ogryn variants seem like they can really make use of the orders. Both Move! Move! Move! And Fix Bayonets! are pretty strong for supporting the big guys.


I hadn't spotted that. I think that the auxilia thing could work, but it is definitely gamey and not intended to work like that. I'll just avoid doing it.


RAW it works, and it's in synch with the background. A single liaison officer feels totally okay to me. Making your whole army of guys "Auxilia" so all your officers can issue orders to Ogryns feels off. I guess if GW rules that "Auxilia" isn't a Regiment, there's no orders one way or another.


My first impression is 'how rules-lawyer-y', but honestly, it does fit with the background, and you're no longer able to give the rest of your army orders with that officer so it's not like it's consequence-free. I kinda like it!

What do people think of using Conscripts as a second-line unit to use against aggressive charging? Let a couple of Infantry squads or even another unit of Conscripts take a charge and die or fall back, step forward into rapid fire range with forty or so poorly-trained expendables, and use First Rank Fire on them.

Sure, it's just 5+ lasguns, but it's a lot of lasguns.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 19:21:13


Post by: Trickstick


gungo wrote:
The culexus is a beatstick still. But you act as if an ork player is going to flee combat with a squad of orks vs them and that wont happen.


I don't understand why you would use assassins against Ork boyz. Wait for a point in the first 3 turns for a warboss to expose itself, then _Assassinate_ him. An eversor can charge 3d6, which is a 74% chance of making a 9" charge. 8 attacks, hitting on 2+ and 4 pistol shots with rerolls to wound. Now, I don't know if this can kill the top level characters in armies but you should be able to rip out some section of their buffing abilities. The callidus can do something similar with the d6+3 infiltrate distance.

After you do this, they have to divert some section of their army to deal with you, which can really stall an advance. Even if the assassin just takes pressure away from one side of your line for a turn, that can be enough to withstand the tide.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 19:24:26


Post by: Red Corsair


gungo wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
gungo wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
Hmmm, callexus does meh damage but is a solid speed bump since you hit him on 6+ now and he has 5 wounds with a 4++ Essentially he can answer the green tide equation since he can charge them and force them to fall back, hence disallowing them from shooting and assaulting. Rinse repeat.

It takes 120 strength 4 attacks to kill him... you have a melee range of 1"... I think I solved it....


You do realize a single 30 choppaboy unit does 120 atks in combat, they get to pile in and consolidate. This does not include if a waaagh banner is in range which is another 30 atks and this does not include shooting with 30 str4 pistols their next shooting phase. Why would they fall back with leadership 30 and falling back doesn't stop shooting?


I bolded the part your clearly missed in my post. A base is 1" your getting a max of 10 orks when the assassin charges in after you pile in. good luck with that.

BTW your gonna want to mix your ork boys for this reason, better to get more shots in some cases especially when your never getting a full strength mob within melee range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Therion wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
Hmmm, callexus does meh damage but is a solid speed bump since you hit him on 6+ now and he has 5 wounds with a 4++ Essentially he can answer the green tide equation since he can charge them and force them to fall back, hence disallowing them from shooting and assaulting. Rinse repeat.

It takes 120 strength 4 attacks to kill him... you have a melee range of 1"... I think I solved it....

So he is 85 points, eversore is 70 and much killier but he will definitely die to a mob of orks UNLESS you get a cheaky flank and they can't pile in with many, that said I could see running a pair up either flank and pulling a unit in two directs with dual charges each round. You will do more damage and have a similar effect to the callexus. Callexus is still the better choice though. He can't be killed efficiently by your opponent and can repeatedly force them to disengage which essentially loses them a round of actions.


They're both great. Culexus, while serving as a shooter and a speed bump, totally ruins psychic heavy armies. Eversor has so good weapons and the bio-meltdown that I'm pretty sure point by point he's decent in point by point efficiency.



Yea I might run all but the calledus, she was always my least favorite. I think it's the most flexible, charge them in on either flank of a mob and split their pile ins where they are thinest. Vindicare can pop support characters or force them inside vehicles making their buffs go away either way. I imagine a pair of vindicares will kill most characters quickly. Luckily tempestors are expendable themselves


I believe its not 1in from the target its 1 in from a model in contact with the target. try it at home you can get ALOT more models in range with at least 3 layers of orks. So the culexus dies in maybe tops 2 turns with 2 rounds of combat each turn and a round of shooting. Not a huge deal with a squad that costs 150.

The culexus is a beatstick still. But you act as if an ork player is going to flee combat with a squad of orks vs them and that wont happen.


No it definitely is 1" range to enemies, check the rules. I think your hung up on rules from older editions, which is understandable, I keep forgetting things like vehicles overwatching and flamers now doing d6 auto hits on overwatch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Trickstick wrote:
gungo wrote:
The culexus is a beatstick still. But you act as if an ork player is going to flee combat with a squad of orks vs them and that wont happen.


I don't understand why you would use assassins against Ork boyz. Wait for a point in the first 3 turns for a warboss to expose itself, then _Assassinate_ him. An eversor can charge 3d6, which is a 74% chance of making a 9" charge. 8 attacks, hitting on 2+ and 4 pistol shots with rerolls to wound. Now, I don't know if this can kill the top level characters in armies but you should be able to rip out some section of their buffing abilities. The callidus can do something similar with the d6+3 infiltrate distance.

After you do this, they have to divert some section of their army to deal with you, which can really stall an advance. Even if the assassin just takes pressure away from one side of your line for a turn, that can be enough to withstand the tide.


I would use a callexus to charge the flanks of hordes to guarantee his survival forcing them to remain locked in their turn or fall back to shoot and charge him with something else. Run the math yourself he takes 120 s4 attacks to kill, and as I said, your dreaming if you think your getting that many attacks in range with 1". That one turn gives me time to reposition and target another flank. Plus nothing is stopping me from running multiple assassins.

Just because GW wants to use them for character assassination doesn't mean I can't repurpose them. The best part is that fact that I can kill enemy characters if I get the chance instead, meaning they aren't bad against anyone.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 19:42:10


Post by: Biophysical


Has anyone had any luck with good ideas for Sentinels (either type)?

I'm not sold on the Scout move for most heavy weapons, and having a -1 modified for moving with no flanks to exploit means the speed and movement is only important to close range weaponry. 52 poijts gets you a Heavy Flamer that is probably in range on turn 1. 9" Scout + 9" move + Advance is pretty far for putting autohitting flamers into people. Heavy Flamers are solid in that role. If you don't Advance, but have someone in charge range, you can charge, prevent someone from shooting, and if they fall back, hit them with flamers. If you get charged, it's a pretty mean overwatch. It's less about raw firepower (10.5 S5ap-1 hits per turn for 156 points) than about disrupting enemy options.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 19:45:11


Post by: Red Corsair


Biophysical wrote:
Has anyone had any luck with good ideas for Sentinels (either type)?

I'm not sold on the Scout move for most heavy weapons, and having a -1 modified for moving with no flanks to exploit means the speed and movement is only important to close range weaponry. 52 poijts gets you a Heavy Flamer that is probably in range on turn 1. 9" Scout + 9" move + Advance is pretty far for putting autohitting flamers into people. Heavy Flamers are solid in that role. If you don't Advance, but have someone in charge range, you can charge, prevent someone from shooting, and if they fall back, hit them with flamers. If you get charged, it's a pretty mean overwatch. It's less about raw firepower (10.5 S5ap-1 hits per turn for 156 points) than about disrupting enemy options.


I think rough riders are much better personally but that said I could see a stalk ML sentinel as something for objective grabbing. 9" scout plus 9" move + advance is a solid move. Just don't expect it to do much damage or survive long vs main line troops anymore.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 20:16:29


Post by: Therion


Eversor does almost as much damage point by point as Ork Boyz with Choppas and Sluggas, against MEQ. Pistols and close combat included

Eversor 16.66 points spent per wound caused, Orks 15,46 points per wound caused.

In the survivability section, the Orks come with with almost twice the wounds for the price (11.6 wounds), but the Eversor has a pretty good save, again closing the gap somewhat, but not quite. If the Eversor ever does become the target of shooting, he's vulnerable to multiwound weapons, while the Ork Boyz aren't.

What the Eversor does have over the Orks, is speed.

My opinion? If the Eversor comes rather close to Ork Boyz both in offensive bang for buck, and decently close in survivability, and Ork Boyz are the benchmark for close combat effectiveness, the Eversor is so far the best <Imperial> assault unit that's been mentioned in this thread. It even has a decent chance of the first turn charge, if you want to play a bunch of them aggressively, charging whatever the Plasma Scions already shot to pieces.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 20:18:15


Post by: Polonius


 Red Corsair wrote:
Biophysical wrote:
Has anyone had any luck with good ideas for Sentinels (either type)?

I'm not sold on the Scout move for most heavy weapons, and having a -1 modified for moving with no flanks to exploit means the speed and movement is only important to close range weaponry. 52 poijts gets you a Heavy Flamer that is probably in range on turn 1. 9" Scout + 9" move + Advance is pretty far for putting autohitting flamers into people. Heavy Flamers are solid in that role. If you don't Advance, but have someone in charge range, you can charge, prevent someone from shooting, and if they fall back, hit them with flamers. If you get charged, it's a pretty mean overwatch. It's less about raw firepower (10.5 S5ap-1 hits per turn for 156 points) than about disrupting enemy options.


I think rough riders are much better personally but that said I could see a stalk ML sentinel as something for objective grabbing. 9" scout plus 9" move + advance is a solid move. Just don't expect it to do much damage or survive long vs main line troops anymore.


Unless I missed something, heavy flamers are heavy, so they cannot shoot after advance. Which is a bummer!


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 20:20:04


Post by: Fenris-77


Does it make anyone else feel even a little bit dirty that we're now talking about taking "a bunch of" Eversor Assassins? Not a criticism at all btw, I'm all about strapping on the beard when it's that time. Maybe it's that I like the idea a little too much...


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 20:23:27


Post by: Sincollector


 Red Corsair wrote:


No it definitely is 1" range to enemies, check the rules. I think your hung up on rules from older editions, which is understandable, I keep forgetting things like vehicles overwatching and flamers now doing d6 auto hits on overwatch.



No, it's definitely within 1" of an enemy model OR 1" of a model from its unit that is within 1" of an enemy model. Looking at it right now. Page 182, Section 5, 3. Choose Targets.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 20:25:29


Post by: Trickstick


 Therion wrote:
Eversor does almost as much damage point by point as Ork Boyz with Choppas and Sluggas, against MEQ. Pistols and close combat included

Eversor 16.66 points spent per wound caused, Orks 15,46 points per wound caused.

In the survivability section, the Orks come with with almost twice the wounds for the price (11.6 wounds), but the Eversor has a pretty good save, again closing the gap somewhat, but not quite. If the Eversor ever does become the target of shooting, he's vulnerable to multiwound weapons, while the Ork Boyz aren't.

My opinion? If the Eversor comes rather close to Ork Boyz both in offensive bang for buck, and decently close in survivability, and Ork Boyz are the benchmark for close combat effectiveness, the Eversor is so far the best <Imperial> assault unit that's been mentioned in this thread. It even has a decent chance of the first turn charge, if you want to play a bunch of them aggressively, charging whatever the Plasma Scions already shot to pieces.


It's not the point per wound that is important with assassins, but more the opportunity to remove the opponents supporting units. If you can use an assassin to take out a key part of the opponents army at the right time then you are getting far more value from your points than just the wounds you have caused. I would guess that the support characters will be deep inside enemy units though, if you are already threatening them with Scion drops. It depends on what form deepstrike and counter-deepstrike tactics take when 8th gets underway in full.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 20:30:50


Post by: Therion


 Fenris-77 wrote:
Does it make anyone else feel even a little bit dirty that we're now talking about taking "a bunch of" Eversor Assassins? Not a criticism at all btw, I'm all about strapping on the beard when it's that time. Maybe it's that I like the idea a little too much...


It's a brand new day, a whole new era

Three of them cost just 210 points which is fairly standard for an assault unit. The three guys go through 12,6 Marines on the charge It might look like it's just three guys, but they got 18 wounds and 4+ invulnerable saves, so it's really an assault squad

 Trickstick wrote:
 Therion wrote:
Eversor does almost as much damage point by point as Ork Boyz with Choppas and Sluggas, against MEQ. Pistols and close combat included

Eversor 16.66 points spent per wound caused, Orks 15,46 points per wound caused.

In the survivability section, the Orks come with with almost twice the wounds for the price (11.6 wounds), but the Eversor has a pretty good save, again closing the gap somewhat, but not quite. If the Eversor ever does become the target of shooting, he's vulnerable to multiwound weapons, while the Ork Boyz aren't.

My opinion? If the Eversor comes rather close to Ork Boyz both in offensive bang for buck, and decently close in survivability, and Ork Boyz are the benchmark for close combat effectiveness, the Eversor is so far the best <Imperial> assault unit that's been mentioned in this thread. It even has a decent chance of the first turn charge, if you want to play a bunch of them aggressively, charging whatever the Plasma Scions already shot to pieces.


It's not the point per wound that is important with assassins, but more the opportunity to remove the opponents supporting units. If you can use an assassin to take out a key part of the opponents army at the right time then you are getting far more value from your points than just the wounds you have caused. I would guess that the support characters will be deep inside enemy units though, if you are already threatening them with Scion drops. It depends on what form deepstrike and counter-deepstrike tactics take when 8th gets underway in full.


I agree with you, but if the utility came at the cost of being points ineffective, I doubt I would entertain the idea of using them. If you find that they're also quite cheap for their actual combat abilities, we can rank them high.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 20:41:22


Post by: Fenris-77


I think we may see a lot of Eversors in AM armies in competitive contexts. The list needs some punch anyway, and those guys do hit like a ton of bricks. I'd rather not field a trio of models jumping off that half-moon piece of masonry though, so maybe some converting is in order. Or mix in the the older sculpt. Something anyway.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 20:46:43


Post by: Therion


 Fenris-77 wrote:
I think we may see a lot of Eversors in AM armies in competitive contexts. The list needs some punch anyway, and those guys do hit like a ton of bricks. I'd rather not field a trio of models jumping off that half-moon piece of masonry though, so maybe some converting is in order. Or mix in the the older sculpt. Something anyway.


Looks good, because of their deployment and the 3D6 charge, and because of how much damage they do point by point. We haven't even taken into account the bio-meltdown, which is worth something.

That said, we're discovering some useful additions to the core of the army every few hours, so we'll see how this ends up developing. Right now we got Scions in two setups, Gatling T Primes, Heavy Weapon Squads, Manticores and Eversor and Culexus Assassins. It's already an army, but more variety and additions wouldn't hurt.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 20:49:53


Post by: Fenris-77


 Therion wrote:
Spoiler:
 Fenris-77 wrote:
I think we may see a lot of Eversors in AM armies in competitive contexts. The list needs some punch anyway, and those guys do hit like a ton of bricks. I'd rather not field a trio of models jumping off that half-moon piece of masonry though, so maybe some converting is in order. Or mix in the the older sculpt. Something anyway.


Looks good, because of their deployment and the 3D6 charge, and because of how much damage they do point by point. We haven't even taken into account the bio-meltdown, which is worth something.

That said, we're discovering some useful additions to the core of the army every few hours, so we'll see how this ends up developing. Right now we got Scions in two setups, Gatling T Primes, Heavy Weapon Squads, Manticores and Eversor and Culexus Assassins. It's already an army, but more variety and additions wouldn't hurt.
Don't forget Yarrick - that re-roll bubble has a breakpoint where I think it's friggin' awesome. Say, on three or four Manticores in a box...


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 20:53:18


Post by: Therion


 Fenris-77 wrote:
 Therion wrote:
Spoiler:
 Fenris-77 wrote:
I think we may see a lot of Eversors in AM armies in competitive contexts. The list needs some punch anyway, and those guys do hit like a ton of bricks. I'd rather not field a trio of models jumping off that half-moon piece of masonry though, so maybe some converting is in order. Or mix in the the older sculpt. Something anyway.


Looks good, because of their deployment and the 3D6 charge, and because of how much damage they do point by point. We haven't even taken into account the bio-meltdown, which is worth something.

That said, we're discovering some useful additions to the core of the army every few hours, so we'll see how this ends up developing. Right now we got Scions in two setups, Gatling T Primes, Heavy Weapon Squads, Manticores and Eversor and Culexus Assassins. It's already an army, but more variety and additions wouldn't hurt.
Don't forget Yarrick - that re-roll bubble has a breakpoint where I think it's friggin' awesome. Say, on three or four Manticores in a box...


Yep. He's a force multiplier in a lot of deployments. If you get a good firebase at a central location, depending on terrain, you might be able to buff all of your T Primes and Manticores. Someone not as tired as me could math hammer that too (How many additional unsaved wounds to the enemy his proximity to friendly units causes and what the damage per point value of that is). He seems like a solid competitor for the HQ job.

As a bonus, since we're so worried about Orks, I think he's a soft counter of sorts. 6 Taurox Primes unleashing 180 shots total, hitting on 3+ and re-rolling all misses, well, that's not going to be pretty for the Ork Boyz.




Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 20:59:23


Post by: Polonius


 Fenris-77 wrote:
I think we may see a lot of Eversors in AM armies in competitive contexts. The list needs some punch anyway, and those guys do hit like a ton of bricks. I'd rather not field a trio of models jumping off that half-moon piece of masonry though, so maybe some converting is in order. Or mix in the the older sculpt. Something anyway.


or something indeed....



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 21:06:03


Post by: Fenris-77


 Therion wrote:
 Fenris-77 wrote:
 Therion wrote:
Spoiler:
 Fenris-77 wrote:
I think we may see a lot of Eversors in AM armies in competitive contexts. The list needs some punch anyway, and those guys do hit like a ton of bricks. I'd rather not field a trio of models jumping off that half-moon piece of masonry though, so maybe some converting is in order. Or mix in the the older sculpt. Something anyway.


Looks good, because of their deployment and the 3D6 charge, and because of how much damage they do point by point. We haven't even taken into account the bio-meltdown, which is worth something.

That said, we're discovering some useful additions to the core of the army every few hours, so we'll see how this ends up developing. Right now we got Scions in two setups, Gatling T Primes, Heavy Weapon Squads, Manticores and Eversor and Culexus Assassins. It's already an army, but more variety and additions wouldn't hurt.
Don't forget Yarrick - that re-roll bubble has a breakpoint where I think it's friggin' awesome. Say, on three or four Manticores in a box...


Yep. He's a force multiplier in a lot of deployments. If you get a good firebase at a central location, depending on terrain, you might be able to buff all of your T Primes and Manticores. Someone not as tired as me could math hammer that too (How many additional unsaved wounds to the enemy his proximity to friendly units causes and what the damage per point value of that is). He seems like a solid competitor for the HQ job.

As a bonus, since we're so worried about Orks, I think he's a soft counter of sorts. 6 Taurox Primes unleashing 180 shots total, hitting on 3+ and re-rolling all misses, well, that's not going to be pretty for the Ork Boyz.
Getting all 6 Tauroxes within 6" of Yarrick could be tricky for LOS, but I bet you could do a wagon laager of four Taurox Primes up front and four Manticores in back and be able to shoot everything with rerolls. And .... now i feel dirty again.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 21:06:48


Post by: Therion


 Fenris-77 wrote:
 Therion wrote:
 Fenris-77 wrote:
 Therion wrote:
Spoiler:
 Fenris-77 wrote:
I think we may see a lot of Eversors in AM armies in competitive contexts. The list needs some punch anyway, and those guys do hit like a ton of bricks. I'd rather not field a trio of models jumping off that half-moon piece of masonry though, so maybe some converting is in order. Or mix in the the older sculpt. Something anyway.


Looks good, because of their deployment and the 3D6 charge, and because of how much damage they do point by point. We haven't even taken into account the bio-meltdown, which is worth something.

That said, we're discovering some useful additions to the core of the army every few hours, so we'll see how this ends up developing. Right now we got Scions in two setups, Gatling T Primes, Heavy Weapon Squads, Manticores and Eversor and Culexus Assassins. It's already an army, but more variety and additions wouldn't hurt.
Don't forget Yarrick - that re-roll bubble has a breakpoint where I think it's friggin' awesome. Say, on three or four Manticores in a box...


Yep. He's a force multiplier in a lot of deployments. If you get a good firebase at a central location, depending on terrain, you might be able to buff all of your T Primes and Manticores. Someone not as tired as me could math hammer that too (How many additional unsaved wounds to the enemy his proximity to friendly units causes and what the damage per point value of that is). He seems like a solid competitor for the HQ job.

As a bonus, since we're so worried about Orks, I think he's a soft counter of sorts. 6 Taurox Primes unleashing 180 shots total, hitting on 3+ and re-rolling all misses, well, that's not going to be pretty for the Ork Boyz.
Getting all 6 Tauroxes within 6" of Yarrick could be tricky, but I bet you could do a wagon laager of four Taurox Primes up front and four Manticores in back and be able to shoot everything with rerolls. And .... now i feel dirty again.


Since all models can now draw LOS and shoot from any point of the model, even the corner of a track, I don't think it'll be that hard. If those 6 Taurox shoot Orks, Yarrick's ability will cause 40 additional hits ^_^


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 21:11:28


Post by: Trickstick


If you have seen a Taurox, the thing is tiny. I think 6 would be doable. Of course, as soon as something multi-charges you then everything is dead. A mass of conscripts and a backup commissar can handle that though.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 21:11:38


Post by: Biophysical


 Polonius wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
Biophysical wrote:
Has anyone had any luck with good ideas for Sentinels (either type)?

I'm not sold on the Scout move for most heavy weapons, and having a -1 modified for moving with no flanks to exploit means the speed and movement is only important to close range weaponry. 52 poijts gets you a Heavy Flamer that is probably in range on turn 1. 9" Scout + 9" move + Advance is pretty far for putting autohitting flamers into people. Heavy Flamers are solid in that role. If you don't Advance, but have someone in charge range, you can charge, prevent someone from shooting, and if they fall back, hit them with flamers. If you get charged, it's a pretty mean overwatch. It's less about raw firepower (10.5 S5ap-1 hits per turn for 156 points) than about disrupting enemy options.


I think rough riders are much better personally but that said I could see a stalk ML sentinel as something for objective grabbing. 9" scout plus 9" move + advance is a solid move. Just don't expect it to do much damage or survive long vs main line troops anymore.


Unless I missed something, heavy flamers are heavy, so they cannot shoot after advance. Which is a bummer!


Aww, crap, you're right. 18"+8" gun is still a lot if threat first turn, I suppose.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 21:13:56


Post by: Fenris-77


It's the R-rated version of 40K. Close your eyes kids, Yarrick is going to whip out his beat stick and give those Orks the business. Dakkadakkadakka...


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 21:17:45


Post by: Desubot


 Polonius wrote:
 Fenris-77 wrote:
I think we may see a lot of Eversors in AM armies in competitive contexts. The list needs some punch anyway, and those guys do hit like a ton of bricks. I'd rather not field a trio of models jumping off that half-moon piece of masonry though, so maybe some converting is in order. Or mix in the the older sculpt. Something anyway.


or something indeed....



Dude fantastic idea.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 21:43:04


Post by: STG


Can anyone tell me more about the demolisher? i'm not well informed but it is my understanding that blasts suck ass now.
I'm hoping its not true because I bought one of the forgeworld demolisher turrets. :sadface:


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 23:21:57


Post by: Cothonian


I'm actually seriously looking at Yarrick now. Previously he was just way too expensive points-wise to justify the cost.

But now...


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 23:41:26


Post by: deltaKshatriya


 STG wrote:
Can anyone tell me more about the demolisher? i'm not well informed but it is my understanding that blasts suck ass now.
I'm hoping its not true because I bought one of the forgeworld demolisher turrets. :sadface:


Actually, I feel that it might be getting a bit better this edition, when combined with certain orders.

Is the general feeling that LR tanks are better than before, but not as good as mechanized?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 23:50:35


Post by: Ragnar Blackmane


 deltaKshatriya wrote:


Is the general feeling that LR tanks are better than before, but not as good as mechanized?


Depends. Most variants are overpriced by a fair bit compared to their firepower, while the Punisher is extremely good now, especially with Pask. No reason to take Exterminators whatsoever (they took a massive hit with the nerf bat for whatever reason) and little reason to take a LRBT when you can just take an Eradicator for +3 points instead. Vanquisher still very situational (and suffers from Punishers now being more flexible against MCs and tanks) and Executioners suffer from the fact that plasma stormtroopers do their job much better, cheaper, are more reliable and take less of an investment to reliably overcharge.

I also doubt that mechanized will be much of a meta for the Guard, Veterans got nerfed, Stormtroopers get free "place 'em when and where you want" transportation, Chimeras are very, very pricy (let alone the Valkyrie which easily breaches 200 points now) and it seems people will be more interested in the Taurox, at least the Prime, as an immobile shooting plattform than as a troop transport.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 00:00:36


Post by: deltaKshatriya


Well, I was hoping for improved BS this edition, but ah well, I guess not.

The Vanquisher imo suffers mainly from BS issues: math works out to not enough wounds.

The Demolisher seems ok to me.

Eradictor is a lot better now, surprisingly.

The Punisher, which imo, was pretty good before, is now even better.

I feel an all armored list is possible tho to be competitive. Before it wasn't very possible tbh


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 00:02:16


Post by: Trickstick


Mechanised suffers from the fact that moving vehicles lose BS. It just makes keeping them still much more tempting. Even sentinels are better off standing still. About the only vehicle I could see myself moving are the hellhounds using flamers and chem cannons, because they auto hit.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 00:04:05


Post by: ThePie


Can Pask give orders to himself? From what i can read it doesen't seem so cuz the rules say he can give orders to other russ characters. And if he cannot, would it be a good idea to bring 2 executioner buddies that super charge all the time with pask's reroll 1 order.

And what is the best Heavy Weapons Team loadout? Im thinking if its better to bring Loads of mortars (they are dirt cheap and will be a good way to deal with hordes) and Las Cannons, or to only go Missile Launchers due to thier versatility


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 00:14:50


Post by: Trickstick


 ThePie wrote:
Can Pask give orders to himself? From what i can read it doesen't seem so cuz the rules say he can give orders to other russ characters. And if he cannot, would it be a good idea to bring 2 executioner buddies that super charge all the time with pask's reroll 1 order.


Yeah he can't, which makes putting him into a plasma tank pretty dangerous. He would probably do well in an exterminator or punisher with HBs and lascannon, instead of taking plasma.

 ThePie wrote:
And what is the best Heavy Weapons Team loadout? Im thinking if its better to bring Loads of mortars (they are dirt cheap and will be a good way to deal with hordes) and Las Cannons, or to only go Missile Launchers due to thier versatility


I would say mortars out of LOS, or 2 bolters and a las for other teams. Split fire made it unnecessary to take 3x the same weapon, and firing 1 lascannon at a time is a great way to not overkill. Plus, a HWT with a bolter is like 12 points...


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 00:23:26


Post by: ThePie


 Trickstick wrote:
 ThePie wrote:
Can Pask give orders to himself? From what i can read it doesen't seem so cuz the rules say he can give orders to other russ characters. And if he cannot, would it be a good idea to bring 2 executioner buddies that super charge all the time with pask's reroll 1 order.


Yeah he can't, which makes putting him into a plasma tank pretty dangerous. He would probably do well in an exterminator or punisher with HBs and lascannon, instead of taking plasma.

 ThePie wrote:
And what is the best Heavy Weapons Team loadout? Im thinking if its better to bring Loads of mortars (they are dirt cheap and will be a good way to deal with hordes) and Las Cannons, or to only go Missile Launchers due to thier versatility


I would say mortars out of LOS, or 2 bolters and a las for other teams. Split fire made it unnecessary to take 3x the same weapon, and firing 1 lascannon at a time is a great way to not overkill. Plus, a HWT with a bolter is like 12 points...


Ah, i meant if i should take pask (probably a punisher) with 2 plasma russes buddies (so not to waste his orders), since it seems that super charging russes can put out alot of damage, and pask lets them do it pretty safely, from what i can see, the emergency plasma vents only affects plasma cannon sponsons, so emergency plasma vent wont mess up your main cannon (which only gives 1d6 mortal wounds if you would happen to roll 3 1's in a row).

And yeah, Using Heavy Bolter's instead of Mortars might be a good idea, The extra Str and -1 AP will make dealing with infantry alot easier, especially for just 3 points extra over the mortar.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 00:34:11


Post by: Trickstick


 ThePie wrote:
Ah, i meant if i should take pask (probably a punisher) with 2 plasma russes buddies (so not to waste his orders), since it seems that super charging russes can put out alot of damage, and pask lets them do it pretty safely, from what i can see, the emergency plasma vents only affects plasma cannon sponsons, so emergency plasma vent wont mess up your main cannon (which only gives 1d6 mortal wounds if you would happen to roll 3 1's in a row).

And yeah, Using Heavy Bolter's instead of Mortars might be a good idea, The extra Str and -1 AP will make dealing with infantry alot easier, especially for just 3 points extra over the mortar.


Oh yeah, Pask can be a really useful buffer for Russes. Don't forget that he is allowed to give orders to tank commanders, which normally have a restriction saying that they can't give orders to characters.

I would probably still use some mortars because of how cheap and effective they are. They can go in those places in your deployment zone which are usually such horrible places to put units, like behind a building or your vehicle line.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 00:40:34


Post by: ThePie


 Trickstick wrote:
 ThePie wrote:
Ah, i meant if i should take pask (probably a punisher) with 2 plasma russes buddies (so not to waste his orders), since it seems that super charging russes can put out alot of damage, and pask lets them do it pretty safely, from what i can see, the emergency plasma vents only affects plasma cannon sponsons, so emergency plasma vent wont mess up your main cannon (which only gives 1d6 mortal wounds if you would happen to roll 3 1's in a row).

And yeah, Using Heavy Bolter's instead of Mortars might be a good idea, The extra Str and -1 AP will make dealing with infantry alot easier, especially for just 3 points extra over the mortar.


Oh yeah, Pask can be a really useful buffer for Russes. Don't forget that he is allowed to give orders to tank commanders, which normally have a restriction saying that they can't give orders to characters.

I would probably still use some mortars because of how cheap and effective they are. They can go in those places in your deployment zone which are usually such horrible places to put units, like behind a building or your vehicle line.


Is it worth upgrading normal russes to tank commanders for 35 pts? They cant command other characters so with pask and 2 commanders thier orders goes to waste (and i hate being wasteful hehe), on the other hand they help fill up HQ slots, which makes it easier to get thoose delicous command points.

And how many Heavy Weapon Teams do you think is enough? I was thinking something like 3 Heavy Bolter Squads, 3 Las Cannon Squads and 3 Mortar Squads at 1500 pts


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 00:47:20


Post by: ross-128


If you have enough of them and space them out right, you could also use cheap HWTs to turn everything within 18" of your board edge (9" from the edge to the HWTs, then 9" from the HWTs to the front end of their exclusion zone) into a no-teleport zone, which would give your front lines a good deal of room to push forward without worrying about things appearing behind them.

Well, other than the occasional unit like Lictors that ignore the 9" rule. When something only has a 3" exclusion zone (or 1", in the case of the Mawloc) there's not much you can do about it other than shoot it to death after it appears.

With 2" coherency and three 60mm two-man bases per team, let's see... 60mm is a bit over 2" itself, so each HWS can theoretically cover a 10" stretch on its own, and then you have 18" between teams for 28" of coverage per team. (although you'll probably want to place them closer together to avoid holes along the edges of the no-teleport zone). If you're deploying along the long board edge you've got 72" you want to cover, which you can do if you have 3 or more HWS.

Of course, it probably won't take your opponent long to figure out that he can just kill one of the HWS to put a hole in your no-teleport zone, but adding that extra step might at least stall him for a turn. Especially since with them sitting comfortably in the rear with their 48" range weapons, their options for shooting at them will be limited to weapons they probably wanted to use on something more expensive.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 00:50:04


Post by: Trickstick


 ThePie wrote:
Is it worth upgrading normal russes to tank commanders for 35 pts? They cant command other characters so with pask and 2 commanders thier orders goes to waste (and i hate being wasteful hehe), on the other hand they help fill up HQ slots, which makes it easier to get thoose delicous command points.


The BS is nice just buy itself. You could take 2 normal russes to take orders from them, put then you have a 5 russ list and it is pretty bloated with low damage units.

 ThePie wrote:
And how many Heavy Weapon Teams do you think is enough? I was thinking something like 3 Heavy Bolter Squads, 3 Las Cannon Squads and 3 Mortar Squads


No idea! I'm having a hard time writing lists right now, so many things I want to try out. Also, I am really having trouble deciding how many infantry squads to take. It is all well and good dreaming about Scion drops, ratling fire and manticore volleys, but without the core Infantry squads to absorb charges and take wounds then everything else will just fold like paper.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 01:00:51


Post by: Fenris-77


I think you'd be better off with a limited castle - deny as much of the deployment zone as possible and use more durable units (tanks maybe) on the weak flank. If you're more densely packed you're not as vulnerable to losing a single model. Just not too close so as to make getting sucked into HtH too easily.

As for the HW Teams, I think it all depends on your build. They are super cheap, and its not too hard to get enough officers in a list to get rerolls for almost all of them. Personally, I like ACs and HBs for those guys. It depends on what kind of dakka you have elsewhere I suppose. MLs would be a good all-round choice too, especially with rerolls TH.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 03:22:12


Post by: Otto von Bludd


Biophysical wrote:
Has anyone had any luck with good ideas for Sentinels (either type)?

I'm not sold on the Scout move for most heavy weapons, and having a -1 modified for moving with no flanks to exploit means the speed and movement is only important to close range weaponry. 52 poijts gets you a Heavy Flamer that is probably in range on turn 1. 9" Scout + 9" move + Advance is pretty far for putting autohitting flamers into people. Heavy Flamers are solid in that role. If you don't Advance, but have someone in charge range, you can charge, prevent someone from shooting, and if they fall back, hit them with flamers. If you get charged, it's a pretty mean overwatch. It's less about raw firepower (10.5 S5ap-1 hits per turn for 156 points) than about disrupting enemy options.


This is exactly how I was thinking of using them.

 Red Corsair wrote:


I think rough riders are much better personally but that said I could see a stalk ML sentinel as something for objective grabbing. 9" scout plus 9" move + advance is a solid move. Just don't expect it to do much damage or survive long vs main line troops anymore.


Scount sentinels will survive much longer vs "main line troops" such as those using bolters. They have double the wounds as well as a save now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Trickstick wrote:
Mechanised suffers from the fact that moving vehicles lose BS. It just makes keeping them still much more tempting. Even sentinels are better off standing still. About the only vehicle I could see myself moving are the hellhounds using flamers and chem cannons, because they auto hit.


And this is the reason the Heavy Flamer is going to be a key component of mechanized lists. I'm converting my Chimeras to dual HFs as we speak. Is it pricey? Yes, but you are definitely getting what you pay for. You ignore all penalties to hit, including movement and damage. You have a very scary overwatch. You ignore mediocre BS. You have the potential to do heavy damage to both single models as well as squads. The damage potential of 2 heavy flamers on a chimera is so far ahead of any of the other combinations it isn't even funny. Since the only reason to buy a Chimera now is to drive forwards, as they are useless as bunkers, the 8" range won't be much of an issue. They are going to work very well with Hellhounds, as the Hellhounds can takle any double wound squads while the Chimeras surge into single wound units.

 Trickstick wrote:


No idea! I'm having a hard time writing lists right now, so many things I want to try out. Also, I am really having trouble deciding how many infantry squads to take. It is all well and good dreaming about Scion drops, ratling fire and manticore volleys, but without the core Infantry squads to absorb charges and take wounds then everything else will just fold like paper.


Remember, vehicles can absorb charges now just as well as an infantry squad, if not better in many cases. Of course, it all comes down to points. Sticking with the example of the dual HF Chimera, it will absorb charges much better than a squad of infantry but of course it costs much more. However it can be anywhere you need it to be and packs an overwatch so strong that many units won't want to charge it. Is that worth the increased point cost? I guess that remains to be seen.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 04:04:31


Post by: Ir0njack


So by no means am I a super competitive guy but I figured I'd take a shot at a list up to 1850. Be prepared thought this might be... rough, here's what I've go so far

---HQs---
Straken 90
Tempestor Prime 40
- Command rod
Company Commander 30

---TROOPS---
Infantry Squad 48
- Heavy bolter
Infantry Squad 48
- Heavy bolter
Infantry Squad 48
- Heavy bolter
Infantry Squad 48
- Heavy bolter
Infantry Squad 48
- Heavy bolter
Infantry Squad 48
- Heavy bolter

---ELITES---
Command Squad 34
-Voxcaster
-Regimental Standard
Tempestus Command Squad 62
- Voxcaster
- Plasmagun x3
Tempestus Command Squad 64
- Plasmaguns x4
Commissar 30
Commissar 30

---FAST ATTACK---
Armored Sentinel x3 171
- Autocannon x3
- Sentinel chainsaw x3
Armored Sentinel x3 171
- Autocannon x3
- Sentinel chainsaw x3
Armored Sentinel x3 171
- Autocannon x3
- Sentinel chainsaw x3

---HEAVY SUPPORT---
Heavy weapons Squad 72
- Lascannon x3
Heavy weapons Squad 72
- Lascannon x3
Heavy weapons Squad 72
- Lascannon x3


The idea is command squad acts as ablative wounds to Straken and Company Commader while boosting order range withe the vox. Meanwhile the standard boosts commissars to Ld9 to mitigate any battleshock on the infantry squads as they use the massed lasgun and HB fire for light infantry or hordes. Tempestus drop in for priority targets, Sentinels gun for med toughness while HWTs take down hard targets. worse case scenario Straken can boost guardsmen with +1attack while being pretty resilient himself, I even Though of a Bullgryn bodyguard unit with slabshields and mauls for 5 S7 AP-1 attacks on a charge with W3 and a 2+save.
Atm the list totals up to about 1397 I'm totally open any suggestions



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 04:31:36


Post by: Biophysical


Here's a thought:

Armored Sentinel + Plasma Cannon is 55.

A Plasma Sponson Excecutioner with hull Heavy Bolter is 132+15+15+20+8 = 190 points

The executioner is 25.3 points per plasma shot.
The sentinel is 27.5 points per plasma shot.

The Sentinel has a lower toughness, but is 9.2 points per wound as opposed to the Russ, which is 15.8 points per wound.

Obviously, there are other differences. The Executioner's turret can move without loss of accuracy. The Executioner can get orders from Tank Commanders. The Sentinel can be taken in more granular quanties, however, and it's a Fast Attack slot instead of Heavy Support, if that matters for your list.

Now, if you don't rate the Executioner, you don't rate the Plasma Sentinel, probably, but I think there's not an obvious winner if you're interested in Plasma Cannons.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 04:33:48


Post by: Therion


Here's my 2000 points army based on the brainstorming last night. It'll still change a lot:

BRIGADE DETACHMENT + 9 COMMAND POINTS

HQ:
-Company Commander, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
-Company Commander, Laspistol, Chainsword
-Company Commander, Laspistol, Chainsword
ELITES
-Eversor Assassin
-Eversor Assassin
-Eversor Assassin
TROOPS
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
Dedicated Transports
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
FAST ATTACK
-Scout Sentinel, Heavy Flamer
-Scout Sentinel, Heavy Flamer
-Scout Sentinel, Heavy Flamer
HEAVY SUPPORT
-Heavy Weapons Squad, 3 Mortars
-Heavy Weapons Squad, 3 Mortars
-Manticore, Storm Eagle Rockets, Heavy Bolter

Total Points: 2000
Total Models: 82
Total Wounds: 189
Command Points: 12

It's pretty great in my opinion, considering there's some tax involved to get all the command points. Also, the math really supports this army. Everything outshoots or outfights almost every other choice that could've been taken instead of it point by point.

The Sentinel configuration I'm most unsure about. They are the tax, but the command points make the Eversors very likely to reach their charges when they appear.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 04:53:32


Post by: ross-128


Since you're running Scions in all your troops slots, you'll probably want to re-shuffle your points to replace your Company Commanders with Tempestor Primes.

Company Commanders issue orders to units that they share a <regiment> keyword with. Their <regiment> keyword cannot be Tempestus. The <regement> keyword of a Scion is always Tempestus. I'm sure you can see where the problem is there.

If you want to give orders to Scions, you need a Tempestor Prime. He's the only unit that can do it.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 04:56:59


Post by: Therion


 ross-128 wrote:
Since you're running Scions in all your troops slots, you'll probably want to re-shuffle your points to replace your Company Commanders with Tempestor Primes.

Company Commanders issue orders to units that they share a <regiment> keyword with. Their <regiment> keyword cannot be Tempestus. The <regement> keyword of a Scion is always Tempestus. I'm sure you can see where the problem is there.

If you want to give orders to Scions, you need a Tempestor Prime. He's the only unit that can do it.


You're absolutely right. I missed it. Although, the idea was never to give orders to the Scions, but to the Taurox that are deployed more defensively. Well, the idea wasn't really orders at all, more than filling the mandatory HQ slots for as cheap as possible.

It'll be a tough squeeze to replace them all with Tempestor Primes who are a bit more expensive.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 05:14:38


Post by: Red Corsair


Sincollector wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:


No it definitely is 1" range to enemies, check the rules. I think your hung up on rules from older editions, which is understandable, I keep forgetting things like vehicles overwatching and flamers now doing d6 auto hits on overwatch.



No, it's definitely within 1" of an enemy model OR 1" of a model from its unit that is within 1" of an enemy model. Looking at it right now. Page 182, Section 5, 3. Choose Targets.


Awesome I am glad I was wrong, makes orks much stronger.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 05:35:00


Post by: ross-128


 Therion wrote:
 ross-128 wrote:
Since you're running Scions in all your troops slots, you'll probably want to re-shuffle your points to replace your Company Commanders with Tempestor Primes.

Company Commanders issue orders to units that they share a <regiment> keyword with. Their <regiment> keyword cannot be Tempestus. The <regement> keyword of a Scion is always Tempestus. I'm sure you can see where the problem is there.

If you want to give orders to Scions, you need a Tempestor Prime. He's the only unit that can do it.


You're absolutely right. I missed it. Although, the idea was never to give orders to the Scions, but to the Taurox that are deployed more defensively. Well, the idea wasn't really orders at all, more than filling the mandatory HQ slots for as cheap as possible.

It'll be a tough squeeze to replace them all with Tempestor Primes who are a bit more expensive.


On the bright side, three Primes plus the Scions is still less than half your units. So the Tempestor Primes can stay in reserves, and deep strike with the Scions. It's also conveniently enough to give re-rolls to all the Scions you took, as long as they have their (free) command stick. Overcharge re-rolls for everyone!


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 05:48:03


Post by: Therion


 ross-128 wrote:
 Therion wrote:
 ross-128 wrote:
Since you're running Scions in all your troops slots, you'll probably want to re-shuffle your points to replace your Company Commanders with Tempestor Primes.

Company Commanders issue orders to units that they share a <regiment> keyword with. Their <regiment> keyword cannot be Tempestus. The <regement> keyword of a Scion is always Tempestus. I'm sure you can see where the problem is there.

If you want to give orders to Scions, you need a Tempestor Prime. He's the only unit that can do it.


You're absolutely right. I missed it. Although, the idea was never to give orders to the Scions, but to the Taurox that are deployed more defensively. Well, the idea wasn't really orders at all, more than filling the mandatory HQ slots for as cheap as possible.

It'll be a tough squeeze to replace them all with Tempestor Primes who are a bit more expensive.


On the bright side, three Primes plus the Scions is still less than half your units. So the Tempestor Primes can stay in reserves, and deep strike with the Scions. It's also conveniently enough to give re-rolls to all the Scions you took, as long as they have their (free) command stick. Overcharge re-rolls for everyone!


Yeah, I can do that. I just need to drop the Manticore and replace it with heavy weapons squads and the Tempestor Primes will fit in. The extra points between the Manticore and a heavy weapons squad, either buys a fourth assassin, or more heavy weapons squads.

Alternatively, here's a setup with just 6 command points instead of 12, but it has no tax units, and there's been some changes:

BATTALLION Detachment:

HQ
-Commissar Yarrick
-Tempestor Prime, Tempestus Command Rod, Power Axe
ELITES
-Eversor Assassin
-Eversor Assassin
-Eversor Assassin
-Eversor Assassin
TROOPS
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
Dedicated Transports
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
HEAVY SUPPORT:
-Heavy Weapons Squad, 3 Mortars
-Heavy Weapons Squad, 3 Mortars
-Manticore, Storm Eagle Rockets, Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter

Total Points: 2000

This list makes sense from the command perspective. There's still enough re-rolls for the crucial stuff. Yarrick bubble buffs the firebase at home, while the other HQ grav drops with the Scions. It also has considerably more close combat power, and it's a lot stronger vs Orks.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 07:25:16


Post by: Aesthete


I don't think the standard works in the Commissars as they lack the <regiment> keyword.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 10:37:10


Post by: MrMoustaffa


Jesus after reading some of the other indexes today I'm kind of wondering what the play testers were smoking when they gave us 7pt plasma guns and 5pt plasma pistols.

I would not get too used to these prices sticking around. If GW is committed to balance like they say, we'll be seeing a price rise pretty quickly. I think they gave us a discount because of poor accuracy on regular troops but forgot that we primarily bring these kind of guns on 3+ models. Either way we may as well be "Codex Plasma" right now. We can overcharge with such laughably small risk it's kind of insulting. I would also expect an update saying HWT's go up to 8pts per base, but honestly they'll still be great even at 24pts base for the unit before weapons.

I'm not sure yet if we're going to be dominating tournaments, but it definitely seems like we have all the tools we'll need to be a top contender. I just don't see other armies having the weight of fire to shift an infantry horde army and at the same time having the tools to deal with "start collecting Stormtroopers" doom force. Both are terrifying for completely different reasons but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. The only concern I have with tournaments is if they set the points limit stupidly high (say 2000pts) and yet limit the amount of detachments you can take. If that happens it'll hurt our options a bit, but not be the end of the world.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 10:47:49


Post by: Fenris-77


@Therion - yeah, that looks about how it should. If the math fits right? My major problem with that list is aesthetic. I effing hate the Taurox models with a grim passion. They're awful. I don't think I could bring my self to either buy or paint one.

Other than that I think it looks about as top drawer as 8th lists get at this point. *soft golf clapping*


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 10:51:42


Post by: Coyote81


 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Jesus after reading some of the other indexes today I'm kind of wondering what the play testers were smoking when they gave us 7pt plasma guns and 5pt plasma pistols.

I would not get too used to these prices sticking around. If GW is committed to balance like they say, we'll be seeing a price rise pretty quickly. I think they gave us a discount because of poor accuracy on regular troops but forgot that we primarily bring these kind of guns on 3+ models. Either way we may as well be "Codex Plasma" right now. We can overcharge with such laughably small risk it's kind of insulting. I would also expect an update saying HWT's go up to 8pts per base, but honestly they'll still be great even at 24pts base for the unit before weapons.

I'm not sure yet if we're going to be dominating tournaments, but it definitely seems like we have all the tools we'll need to be a top contender. I just don't see other armies having the weight of fire to shift an infantry horde army and at the same time having the tools to deal with "start collecting Stormtroopers" doom force. Both are terrifying for completely different reasons but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. The only concern I have with tournaments is if they set the points limit stupidly high (say 2000pts) and yet limit the amount of detachments you can take. If that happens it'll hurt our options a bit, but not be the end of the world.


Well the base rules give us 4 detachments to work with, You can probably fill a double set of battalion detachments at 2k points, or at least one with some other detachments filling in for sure.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 11:09:24


Post by: vipoid


By the way, am I right in thinking that we can freely mix and match Imperium stuff now?

e.g. could we have an IG army led by a Tech-Priest Dominus or an Inquisitor?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 11:15:36


Post by: axisofentropy


 vipoid wrote:
By the way, am I right in thinking that we can freely mix and match Imperium stuff now?

e.g. could we have an IG army led by a Tech-Priest Dominus or an Inquisitor?
yes but the bonus bubbles only work on nearby units with faction keywords. Inquisitor is an exception that works on all Imperials but only leadership.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 11:17:07


Post by: vipoid


yes but the bonus bubbles only work on nearby units with faction keywords. Inquisitor is an exception that works on all Imperials but only leadership.


Yeah, I know it wouldn't be optimal or anything.

I was just musing on having my army led by a super tech-priest.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 11:19:46


Post by: Therion


 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Jesus after reading some of the other indexes today I'm kind of wondering what the play testers were smoking when they gave us 7pt plasma guns and 5pt plasma pistols.

I would not get too used to these prices sticking around. If GW is committed to balance like they say, we'll be seeing a price rise pretty quickly. I think they gave us a discount because of poor accuracy on regular troops but forgot that we primarily bring these kind of guns on 3+ models. Either way we may as well be "Codex Plasma" right now. We can overcharge with such laughably small risk it's kind of insulting. I would also expect an update saying HWT's go up to 8pts per base, but honestly they'll still be great even at 24pts base for the unit before weapons.

I'm not sure yet if we're going to be dominating tournaments, but it definitely seems like we have all the tools we'll need to be a top contender. I just don't see other armies having the weight of fire to shift an infantry horde army and at the same time having the tools to deal with "start collecting Stormtroopers" doom force. Both are terrifying for completely different reasons but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. The only concern I have with tournaments is if they set the points limit stupidly high (say 2000pts) and yet limit the amount of detachments you can take. If that happens it'll hurt our options a bit, but not be the end of the world.


There's a lot of other good stuff in the game than just Scions. Let the meta settle. I'm not sure we'll see a rebalancing of any kind until at least a year when multiple actual codex books are out. They're still selling paper indexes and paper codices and don't want them to be completely worthless due to nonstop patch versions. If and when any kind of adjustments come, it needs to be a similarly massive launch as this one. All the overpriced units (dozens upon dozens of them) adjusted down in price, and some stuff adjusted up.

In fact, they could change these points costs when the AM codex is released, if they want, without having multiple versions of the indexes going around. But like I said, being committed to balance means more than just nerfing something that's good. The AM index has about 15 units that are grossly overpriced for what they do. I'm expecting serious buffs to them whenever something else gets toned down.

Regarding the 7 point plasma, sure it's a good deal, but the same trend is true for all the armies that get plasma. Plasma, especially with the supercharge, is incredibly strong. Space Marines pay 13 points for the gun. I guess Scions could pay 10. In my list it'd be a 72 point increase, but then I'd probably switch a couple squads to volley guns, and then just pay the 40 or so points I need from somewhere. Big deal? The reason the plasmas are so good isn't so much the points cost, it's the fact the gun's statline is better than actual heavy weapons, and it's mobile and doesn't suffer from -1 to hit. A better fix might be toning the super-charge down a bit. Even if it had the same strength and ap as the normal mode, but did twice the wounds, it'd still be worth using in a lot of situations.

But what do I know. I like the Tempestus army. I put an order for six GET STORMTROOPERS boxes, but it looks like I'll have to wait a couple weeks to get them because of availability






Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 11:32:06


Post by: Biophysical


 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Jesus after reading some of the other indexes today I'm kind of wondering what the play testers were smoking when they gave us 7pt plasma guns and 5pt plasma pistols.

I would not get too used to these prices sticking around. If GW is committed to balance like they say, we'll be seeing a price rise pretty quickly. I think they gave us a discount because of poor accuracy on regular troops but forgot that we primarily bring these kind of guns on 3+ models. Either way we may as well be "Codex Plasma" right now. We can overcharge with such laughably small risk it's kind of insulting. I would also expect an update saying HWT's go up to 8pts per base, but honestly they'll still be great even at 24pts base for the unit before weapons.

I'm not sure yet if we're going to be dominating tournaments, but it definitely seems like we have all the tools we'll need to be a top contender. I just don't see other armies having the weight of fire to shift an infantry horde army and at the same time having the tools to deal with "start collecting Stormtroopers" doom force. Both are terrifying for completely different reasons but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. The only concern I have with tournaments is if they set the points limit stupidly high (say 2000pts) and yet limit the amount of detachments you can take. If that happens it'll hurt our options a bit, but not be the end of the world.


Yeah, after seeing the capabilities of plasma in the previews, and how armored stuff was increasing in price, I imagined we'd see plasma priced at a premium level, because it was so strong against everything. Then I saw the army list, and saw how we could easily ignore the only downside of plasma (which hit guard much less than elite armies). Then I'm looking through the points. I see the Grenade Launcher for 5, and think plasma seems fair for 15-ish. Then I see 7, and thought that the must have accidentally dropped a 1 from before the 7.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 11:44:29


Post by: Trickstick


 Fenris-77 wrote:
@Therion - yeah, that looks about how it should. If the math fits right? My major problem with that list is aesthetic. I effing hate the Taurox models with a grim passion. They're awful. I don't think I could bring my self to either buy or paint one.


Is it mainly the weird tracks? There are some decent options to deal with that:
Spoiler:


Also, the FW Index index (double index!) is on their website:
Spoiler:


I think that I am going to wait until I know the vulture's points to do much list building. It is my favorite model and one of my best painted, it would be a shame to drop it.

Also, I find it funny how everyone is pretty much talking about starting a full tempestus army. (-:




Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 11:48:27


Post by: Therion


The Vendetta with 6 lascannons might be a pretty nice firebase if it's not terribly overpriced. WIth Forgeworld, you never know, but I'm eagerly waiting for the indexes to be released.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 12:34:43


Post by: gungo


Who needs tempestus when you can just field an army of DKOK grenadiers they have carapace and hotshot guns. No volley guns but tons of plasma bits too.

And yes my sentinel powerlifter is back baby
Given the fact gene cults can use any Astra vehicle now this model would be a great looking conversion for someone to do.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 13:07:19


Post by: Biophysical


I'm starting to try and get my head around new rules some more. Vehicles have changed so I starting thinking about mechanized forces. I think there's some real benefits to combined arms at this point. We're used to thinking about bubble-wrapping with infantry. This edition has real benefits to armor-wrapping. Light armor now can stand up pretty well to close combat, so you can deploy armor in a defensive position to block first turn assault against more vulnerable infantry.

The movement and force protection available also seem useful, but without more experience it's hard to gauge what sort of points are optimal.

Unfortunately, the Taurox Prime isn't an option for non-Tempestus, which hurts regular guard, and your ability to field larger infantry forces. The Taurox has decent firepower and a pretty okay cost. The Chimera is a little tougher, and a 12 man capacity is really useful for protecting a pair of Special Weapon Squads, or a Veteran squad and some characters. Aside from the Prime, though, I wonder what loadout is optimal.

I'm wondering if a punchy squad can tag-team with its transport. Say you're facing a first-time assault. The squad is loaded up, and the transport gets assaulted. On your turn, the transport withdraws, losing shooting, but the squad piles out, shoots at close range, and assaults (if that's useful). The squad cant deploy within 1" of an enemy model, but after a 9" charge, that's probably not too hard to do. Alternatively, assault with a different transport to tie an attacking squad up.

On attack, moving in a transport is obviously easier than running on foot, and vehicle assaults let you tie up units that would counter-attack against squishy IG squads.

Any thoughts?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 13:34:51


Post by: Red Corsair


 Fenris-77 wrote:
@Therion - yeah, that looks about how it should. If the math fits right? My major problem with that list is aesthetic. I effing hate the Taurox models with a grim passion. They're awful. I don't think I could bring my self to either buy or paint one.

Other than that I think it looks about as top drawer as 8th lists get at this point. *soft golf clapping*






it actually is an awesome model with the drive train swapped out


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 13:47:50


Post by: Biophysical


Both of those conversions are worlds better than the original.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 13:56:21


Post by: vipoid


The second one is amazing.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 14:01:08


Post by: Trickstick


 Therion wrote:
The Vendetta with 6 lascannons might be a pretty nice firebase if it's not terribly overpriced. WIth Forgeworld, you never know, but I'm eagerly waiting for the indexes to be released.


If it is similar points to the Valkyrie then we are looking at 250 (Valkyrie + 6 lasannons). It'll probably get a slight discount for a smaller transport capacity though, so maybe 220-230?

 vipoid wrote:
The second one is amazing.


Pretty nice, although I would prefer the tracks the other way round. Imperial vehicles usually have the tall part at the front.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 14:20:38


Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


I grabbed a couple of cheap Chimera hulls that I was working on converting into base Tauroxes (Tauroxi? Taurocksicillians?). Should I convert them back to Chimeras or into Primes at this point? The autocannons are decent, but lower rate of fire combined with BS 4+ means they don't have the damage output of primes, though they do have longer range. They just seem so pricey now that they have to pay 30pts for their guns...


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 16:12:20


Post by: nevertellmetheodds


The vendetta returns, Praise the Emperor! 250 ish pts seems about right.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 16:34:40


Post by: Blightstar


Have you guys noticed how insane Ratlings are? 7pts a pop, sniper rifles are very good weapon especially on such cheap platform, they get extra cover save (so they have 4+ in cover), they deploy anywhere over 18" from enemies and they get to move extra 6" when they shoot so they basically have 12" movement as long as they can shoot something.

But few things people dont understand about these little dudes:
-You go first if you deploy first and this DOESNT count in those who "infiltrate". Your army has 5 other units, 8 units of ratlings and 12 units of scions and primes in deepstrike? You do 5 of them and then opponent deploys his army. And then ratlings deploy and you go first with massive alpha. Damn.
-This ability and their cheap cost makes them very good "screens" against deepstriking and outflanking units.
-And the most insane part (which again makes them better screens): they get to move when they shoot. Even in overwatch. Holy poop!

Oh and they have T2, ld5 and sv6+ so they die to stiff breeze and then run away. But who cares they cost 70pts there is plenty more where those came from!


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 17:50:41


Post by: Otto von Bludd


Blightstar wrote:
Have you guys noticed how insane Ratlings are? 7pts a pop, sniper rifles are very good weapon especially on such cheap platform, they get extra cover save (so they have 4+ in cover), they deploy anywhere over 18" from enemies and they get to move extra 6" when they shoot so they basically have 12" movement as long as they can shoot something.

But few things people dont understand about these little dudes:
-You go first if you deploy first and this DOESNT count in those who "infiltrate". Your army has 5 other units, 8 units of ratlings and 12 units of scions and primes in deepstrike? You do 5 of them and then opponent deploys his army. And then ratlings deploy and you go first with massive alpha. Damn.
-This ability and their cheap cost makes them very good "screens" against deepstriking and outflanking units.
-And the most insane part (which again makes them better screens): they get to move when they shoot. Even in overwatch. Holy poop!

Oh and they have T2, ld5 and sv6+ so they die to stiff breeze and then run away. But who cares they cost 70pts there is plenty more where those came from!


Yeah I think they are really great, and look forward to using them. The trick will be keeping them alive.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 17:56:19


Post by: Biophysical


Holy crap, I did not think about the ability to make a move after an Overwatch move. I wonder if that was intentional.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 18:08:16


Post by: ross-128


That definitely sounds interesting. A 6" move could easily ruin a lot of charges.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 18:14:03


Post by: Trickstick


Biophysical wrote:
Holy crap, I did not think about the ability to make a move after an Overwatch move. I wonder if that was intentional.


Yeah, I had to double check the rules when I read that. But overwatch "...uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required...".

Ratlings got a bit more fun...


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 18:37:20


Post by: vipoid


Blightstar wrote:
Have you guys noticed how insane Ratlings are? 7pts a pop, sniper rifles are very good weapon especially on such cheap platform, they get extra cover save (so they have 4+ in cover), they deploy anywhere over 18" from enemies and they get to move extra 6" when they shoot so they basically have 12" movement as long as they can shoot something.

But few things people dont understand about these little dudes:
-You go first if you deploy first and this DOESNT count in those who "infiltrate". Your army has 5 other units, 8 units of ratlings and 12 units of scions and primes in deepstrike? You do 5 of them and then opponent deploys his army. And then ratlings deploy and you go first with massive alpha. Damn.
-This ability and their cheap cost makes them very good "screens" against deepstriking and outflanking units.
-And the most insane part (which again makes them better screens): they get to move when they shoot. Even in overwatch. Holy poop!

Oh and they have T2, ld5 and sv6+ so they die to stiff breeze and then run away. But who cares they cost 70pts there is plenty more where those came from!


Yeah, they look pretty brutal against characters and MCs. Especially given how cheap they are.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 18:40:33


Post by: gungo


Ok that's funny declare charge, overwatch, move back another 6in, roll charge dice,
Oh sorry that 7in charge now requires a 13in charge. So sorry you failed your charge.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 18:50:25


Post by: Biophysical


A decently efficient alternative to Ratlings are Command Squads with Sniper Rifles. You get 4 for 32 points. It's a point more than a Ratling per model, and you lose special rules, but you get higher toughness and better leadership, so you are a little more resilient to fire.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 19:15:19


Post by: Trickstick


So, I was looking at all the get started + index bundles. I noticed that the Militarum Tempestus one is already gone. I think we may be seeing a top-tier meta-breaking army being forged here. That plasma gun price, B3+ and special deployment, backed up by a really good transport, is insane.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 19:40:18


Post by: Spinner


I know ogryns didn't get a whole lot of people excited...but what about a squad of four in a Valkyrie? Grav-chute deployment means you can disembark, walk up, and charge basically whoever you want.

Not entirely as exciting as Scion plasma spam, but I'm still amused


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 19:42:01


Post by: iddy00711


@ MrMoustaffa

Any game can be broken if you push it enough. And Brimstone horrors are significantly more broken.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 20:05:52


Post by: Paintalist


I miss a discussion about the LR variants a little in this thread. Furthermore, Tank commander and Pask in which tank?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 20:11:32


Post by: gungo


 Trickstick wrote:
So, I was looking at all the get started + index bundles. I noticed that the Militarum Tempestus one is already gone. I think we may be seeing a top-tier meta-breaking army being forged here. That plasma gun price, B3+ and special deployment, backed up by a really good transport, is insane.

It's to hard to tell but it's not just the fact scions are one of the best troop choices it's the entire imperial soup this edition creates not even including all the FW items with tons of new rules. The meta will definitely be some type of imperial multi detachment shenanigans, Maybe necrons, maybe some demon list. To early to tell.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 21:18:00


Post by: ross-128


So, I attempted to run a practical test of the 500 conscript army. 544 conscripts actually, in 11 blobs, overseen by 6 commanders and 6 commissars. Many, many placeholders (paper, I don't have *nearly* that many physical models) were involved. Fortunately, placeholders are easy to keep track of when the entire army consists of only three unit types, only one of which is the fighting component. Obviously this wasn't a real game with an opponent, merely a practical experiment.

It is remarkably effective. In the first turn, typically only the first three ranks will be able to fire, and they'll pretty much only be able to target whatever is directly in front of them so they can't concentrate well. However, with the models packed shoulder to shoulder, the first three ranks is 180 lasguns under FRFSRF orders. Most of the squads have to deploy five across and ten deep in order to let them all participate in the shooting, with the ends thinning their depth to improve their frontage. It inflicted roughly 30 casualties on the all-comers infantry list I tested it against, four different squads were reduced to two or three models with two others losing a couple models each.

Now, the return fire did kill 42 conscripts and drop 6 more from battleshock, but the Commissars limiting battleshock to one per squad and giving them LD8 to actually pass some tests did a lot to hold them together. With the ability to allocate your own wounds, models who weren't in range to fire anyway could be removed from the back so that very little actual firepower was lost. And of course, 48 conscripts is less than 10% of the army anyway. By the second turn the first rank would be in rapid-fire range, and the first five or six ranks would be at least in firing range. It certainly brings an intimidating sense of inevitability to the table.

And with the removal of difficult terrain, in a forest or trench-line environment there's little to prevent the blocks of conscripts from just grinding their way up the board until they get into rapid-fire range.

Now, the downsides. Logistics. 556 models in total. Difficult to transport, difficult to put on the board, difficult to keep the squads separated (if someone actually attempts this insanity with real models, they'll probably want to paint their helmet stripes different colors to keep track of who belongs in which squad). City terrain would be sure to bog them down, a couple well-placed buildings in their deployment zone might even make them unable to deploy all their models because they just don't have enough room. Moving all those models is incredibly time-consuming even with difficult terrain being gone.

Deploying along the short board edges would handicap them too, since it would limit how many models they can shove in the front. Forcing them to deploy narrow and deep limits their first-turn firepower, and causes them to ramp up more slowly.

It is an amusing and scary gimmick/theory list though. "They'll need hundreds of shots to kill X big thing" is a lot less comforting when you're facing 360 lasgun shots on the first turn, ramping up to potentially 2000 per turn if they manage to get in range.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 21:36:15


Post by: SonsofVulkan


I'm very curious what the point costs and effectiveness of the FW arty stuff. That's why I'm not going ham on the GW stuff just yet.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 22:47:38


Post by: Leth


Got to stop thinking in terms of single charges. Every CC unit will be multi charging or pile in engaging unless your army is super spread out, in which case you are not taking advantage of buffs.

Also deploying into deep strike counts as a unit deploying so be aware of that. All those scions in reserve count.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 23:35:37


Post by: Otto von Bludd


 Paintalist wrote:
I miss a discussion about the LR variants a little in this thread. Furthermore, Tank commander and Pask in which tank?


I think Leman Russes are going to be fine, the Battle Cannon variant included. As for Pask I'm really torn between the Vanquisher and the regular LR. I think the Vanq will be more consistent but the Battle Cannon sure has the potential to do a ton of damage, especially with Pask. I don't like the short ranged variants as much, but then again I think people are going to be closing to short range very quickly so Punisher Pask definitely has a ton of potential still. I don't like the Eradicator much, and I'm not sure about the Executioner either. It's also worth noting, as a bit of a counterpoint to all of the criticism directed at the Russ, that the guys at Frontline gaming, who helped balance this edition, consider the battle cannon to be one of the best weapons in the game. With a decent BS and the potential to re-roll that D6 shots, I can see why.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/03 23:50:13


Post by: SeraphimXIX


 Paintalist wrote:
I miss a discussion about the LR variants a little in this thread. Furthermore, Tank commander and Pask in which tank?
Taking Leman Russ instead of HWS or plasma Scions is going to lower your chances of winning games, but if you really want to take some Russ go with the Executioner. Tank orders will allow you to re-roll gets hot so you can maximize your damage output.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 00:11:20


Post by: Aaranis


Any thoughts on the Hellhounds ? Thinking about the flamer role they could fill in my army. The Chem Cannon looks fun, and the short range is not a problem with the speed of the vehicle.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 00:17:02


Post by: Coyote81


 Leth wrote:
Got to stop thinking in terms of single charges. Every CC unit will be multi charging or pile in engaging unless your army is super spread out, in which case you are not taking advantage of buffs.

Also deploying into deep strike counts as a unit deploying so be aware of that. All those scions in reserve count.


Yup, the only way to cheat the deployment numbers is to put multiple units in the same transport as you deploy a transport.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 00:19:32


Post by: Trickstick


 Otto von Bludd wrote:
As for Pask I'm really torn between the Vanquisher and the regular LR. I think the Vanq will be more consistent but the Battle Cannon sure has the potential to do a ton of damage, especially with Pask.


I'm waiting to see the FW index. It has both the Stygies pattern Vanquisher (co-ax stormbolter) and the Krieg Mars Alpha patterns (the Mars alpha Vanquisher has a co-ax stubber). Just having the co-ax makes a Vanquisher's main gun better than 3+ to hit, never mind any possible alternative ammunition choices. Then you also have the annihilator tank, which could be the best russ out of them all. And the conqueror, which could turn out to be anything at all.

There are a few other FW models that could end up being really nice:

- The multiple sub-baneblade sized superheavies. A lot of them have either very scary guns (Macharius Omega, Malcador Infernus), or could be in a sweet spot of guns and point efficiency.
- Vulture and Vendetta. Depending on cost, these could be really nice. I am not too sure how great a Vendetta would be if it was hiting on a 5+, but if the Vulture keeps its +1 against ground targets then it would be getting 20 hits, which is nice.
- The many types of stationary artillery. They are usually just cheaper versions of the self-propelled artillery in the codex. Imagine a 100 point Manticore or a 75 point Basilisk.
- Hades breaching drills are always an interesting unit. Will probably be some sort of drop pod for veterans. That could really give veterans a chance to put the hurt on, depending on the exact rules and cost.
- Death riders. They have always been the version of rough riders that don't suck so much. Now that rough riders are ok, maybe death riders will be really good.

A bit of fanciful wish listing I guess, a whole lot of "maybe, if, and could be". One final thing to look forward to though: the lists themselves. Krieg, Elysian and Renegades could all have some little tweak that really fits with your play style. Something as simple as changing the reserve limits for an Elysian list could open up a proper aircav list for people who love that. There is even an entry for "Astra Militarum Army List", which has a chance of being some sort of Armoured Battle Group rules.

Will have to wait and see. The FW index is the last piece of the puzzle to how Guard are going to look for the foreseeable future, at least until a Codex drop.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 00:33:00


Post by: Biophysical


 Aaranis wrote:
Any thoughts on the Hellhounds ? Thinking about the flamer role they could fill in my army. The Chem Cannon looks fun, and the short range is not a problem with the speed of the vehicle.


The melta one looks weak, because it has to roll to hit, and it gets a -1 for moving. The Chem or Inferno with a hill flamer looks interesting because you can move forward to attack, charge support or shooting units to tie them up, and have brutal Overwatches if someone decides to assault you. This makes them potentially useful defensive pieces to help protect units from close combat.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 01:15:59


Post by: Red Corsair


Biophysical wrote:
 Aaranis wrote:
Any thoughts on the Hellhounds ? Thinking about the flamer role they could fill in my army. The Chem Cannon looks fun, and the short range is not a problem with the speed of the vehicle.


The melta one looks weak, because it has to roll to hit, and it gets a -1 for moving. The Chem or Inferno with a hill flamer looks interesting because you can move forward to attack, charge support or shooting units to tie them up, and have brutal Overwatches if someone decides to assault you. This makes them potentially useful defensive pieces to help protect units from close combat.


I already own 4 so I will be using them They are not as good as a taurox prime, but nothing else is. I won't spam just scions and primes though because that army is a meta army and I hat painting that many models just so it can be invalidated when the codex arrives. Thats something to keep in mind, I am sure they remain decent, but I'd rather have a few other options. It also is more fun to play with more different stuff.

I plan on fielding some hell hounds, rough riders, a lump of standard guardsmen, or conscripts some arty and then scions. Should be a blast to play.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 01:24:50


Post by: SeraphimXIX


Giving either one a heavy flamer sounds like a great 1-2 punch.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 01:31:29


Post by: ross-128


There's no doubt the Vendetta will be expensive, especially if it still has all six lascannons. That's 150 points in lascannons alone after all.

However, as long as the *hull* isn't too much, it can easily be worth it. The more the hull/weapons breakdown leans towards weapons, the better.

Definitely looking forward to the stationary artillery platforms though, especially since their crew are just 4 points per model now. It should allow us to put a big gun on the field with very little overhead.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 02:09:10


Post by: Trickstick


 ross-128 wrote:
Definitely looking forward to the stationary artillery platforms though, especially since their crew are just 4 points per model now. It should allow us to put a big gun on the field with very little overhead.


Is there any indication of how mixed toughness units work? Are there even any mixed toughness units in the game anymore? I can see artillery pieces having some odd special rules to do with crew, or maybe just not counting them at all and having them included in a single profile.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 02:20:40


Post by: Leth


I believe it says majority toughness for anything mixed.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 02:22:02


Post by: Trickstick


 Leth wrote:
I believe it says majority toughness for anything mixed.


Well artillery would really need a rule then. T3 basilisk platforms would be really bad.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 02:36:17


Post by: axisofentropy


There are very few mixed Toughness units and I think they all have the rule on their dataslates because 8th edition is very good.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 02:38:39


Post by: Leth


 Trickstick wrote:
 Leth wrote:
I believe it says majority toughness for anything mixed.


Well artillery would really need a rule then. T3 basilisk platforms would be really bad.


I know for the thunderfire cannon they are seperate units, and I think Weapons platforms for eldar became one combined base profile. So we can guess that for the earth shaker crew and the like it will be the same


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 02:57:32


Post by: ross-128


You know, I wouldn't mind stationary artillery being an independent model that just also needs infantry in coherency to function. Especially if it was fired at the operating unit's BS instead of its own... because I'd totally take a barebones command squad to use as a BS3+ artillery crew.

They probably won't do that though.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 04:00:01


Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


I think they might do something like what GW did for Ork artillery; the crew are a separate unit that can't be targeted unless it's the closest unit, but the gun can't shoot without a unit of crew is nearby.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 08:50:38


Post by: Ivan


the criticism directed at the Russ, that the guys at Frontline gaming, who helped balance this edition, consider the battle cannon to be one of the best weapons in the game. With a decent BS and the potential to re-roll that D6 shots, I can see why


I've been stressing about the battle cannon for a couple of weeks now since it's base numbers were announced. Have the full info now and am still mildly stressed... but I think it might be just that the battle cannon has changed from an anti-infantry weapon to an anti-tank weapon and my brain is somewhat slow to adapt.

Really, that's kinda the thing I've been running into over and over and over. This is the first time in 4 editions that things have changed so much that it's hard to theoryhammer without playing actual games (I know, right?!?!). For that alone... and eliminating 7th edition... I'm already grateful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So is anyone else concerned with (or happy for, we being Guard) the HeavyFlamer/HeavyFlamer Chimera? Which is available in virtually unlimited slots for 109 points? 2d6 autohits after moving 12" with range 8"... yeah, S5 is anti-infantry only but skipping the to-hit seems absurdly good.

I'm super new to things (like all of us) so please don't jump me if that's not viable. You can move 12" and go "LOL, heavy flamers don't have to take the -1 to hit penalty", right?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 10:42:56


Post by: Therion


Blightstar wrote:
Have you guys noticed how insane Ratlings are? 7pts a pop, sniper rifles are very good weapon especially on such cheap platform, they get extra cover save (so they have 4+ in cover), they deploy anywhere over 18" from enemies and they get to move extra 6" when they shoot so they basically have 12" movement as long as they can shoot something.

But few things people dont understand about these little dudes:
-You go first if you deploy first and this DOESNT count in those who "infiltrate". Your army has 5 other units, 8 units of ratlings and 12 units of scions and primes in deepstrike? You do 5 of them and then opponent deploys his army. And then ratlings deploy and you go first with massive alpha. Damn.
-This ability and their cheap cost makes them very good "screens" against deepstriking and outflanking units.
-And the most insane part (which again makes them better screens): they get to move when they shoot. Even in overwatch. Holy poop!

Oh and they have T2, ld5 and sv6+ so they die to stiff breeze and then run away. But who cares they cost 70pts there is plenty more where those came from!


Very good point to bring up the deployment. I was thinking about this yesterday. Having so many units deep strike, there's a very real chance that even in an army with this many units, we'll still get to take the first turn very often.

Ratling firepower point by point is quite good too. They beat HWS with mortars or heavy bolters point by point against Rhinos, only barely lose to mortars and hbs vs MEQ but beat LC/MS/AC teams by a landslide. They will shine against something like a Land Raider.

Funnily enough, they're even less survivable than HWS teams, but they do come with those nice special rules that you mentioned, and sniping weak characters might have more value than I think right now.

I'm not 100% sold on the unit, considering a unit of 10 buys an Eversor Assassin too for the same slot. Eversors, especially with a re-roll for charge distance used sometimes, have a very high chance of assaulting and finishing off/tying up anything that the Plasma Scions couldn't completely take out on the alpha strike, and the combined counter-assault potential against some Ork hordes, Tyranids (that assault with some stuff turn one and everything else turn two) is something I'd like to have.






Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 10:48:50


Post by: Trickstick


 Therion wrote:
Very good point to bring up the deployment. I was thinking about this yesterday. Having so many units deep strike, there's a very real chance that even in an army with this many units, we'll still get to take the first turn very often.


Placing a unit in deep strike still counts as deploying a unit for the purposes of alternating deployment. However, it could be really nice saying "I place this unit in a high-altitude transport" for the first six choices, then get to deploy your ground forces to counter whatever they put down.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 10:49:22


Post by: Therion


Ivan wrote:
the criticism directed at the Russ, that the guys at Frontline gaming, who helped balance this edition, consider the battle cannon to be one of the best weapons in the game. With a decent BS and the potential to re-roll that D6 shots, I can see why


I've been stressing about the battle cannon for a couple of weeks now since it's base numbers were announced. Have the full info now and am still mildly stressed... but I think it might be just that the battle cannon has changed from an anti-infantry weapon to an anti-tank weapon and my brain is somewhat slow to adapt.

Really, that's kinda the thing I've been running into over and over and over. This is the first time in 4 editions that things have changed so much that it's hard to theoryhammer without playing actual games (I know, right?!?!). For that alone... and eliminating 7th edition... I'm already grateful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So is anyone else concerned with (or happy for, we being Guard) the HeavyFlamer/HeavyFlamer Chimera? Which is available in virtually unlimited slots for 109 points? 2d6 autohits after moving 12" with range 8"... yeah, S5 is anti-infantry only but skipping the to-hit seems absurdly good.

I'm super new to things (like all of us) so please don't jump me if that's not viable. You can move 12" and go "LOL, heavy flamers don't have to take the -1 to hit penalty", right?


Yeah, no. There's nothing wrong with an MBT's main cannon becoming an anti-tank weapon. There's everything wrong with it costing as much as it does, and hitting so few times per turn for the price. The Leman Russ, frankly, given the alternatives for the same jobs, sucks.

But there's a lot more that the points team got horribly wrong than just the Leman Russ. Take a look at the Stompa, and it's points cost, and how miserably easy it is to kill for the price, and how absurdly little firepower it provides for the price. There's units literally five or six times more points efficient than it, both in offense and defense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Trickstick wrote:
 Therion wrote:
Very good point to bring up the deployment. I was thinking about this yesterday. Having so many units deep strike, there's a very real chance that even in an army with this many units, we'll still get to take the first turn very often.


Placing a unit in deep strike still counts as deploying a unit for the purposes of alternating deployment. However, it could be really nice saying "I place this unit in a high-altitude transport" for the first six choices, then get to deploy your ground forces to counter whatever they put down.


I really couldn't find anything that says it does. It says you don't have to deploy them. You 'set them up' in some teleport chamber or high altitude transport or whatever. There's a different fluff background thing for every unit. How on earth does that imply that you declare one by one that you don't deploy them, and that the declaration counts as a deployment? If it did, I guess Termagants in reserve for Tervigons, and Daemons waiting to be summoned, counted as deployments too? If you did find that rule though, thanks, and link the reference here.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 11:09:07


Post by: deltaKshatriya


Well tanks have got a ton more wounds than other units, so they are more survivable, plus they have the armor save. They are better and more balanced than last edition, but the problem really is that the weapons don't pack as much a punch as something like a ton of infantry (that Guard can throw out) would.

I do think that any army going against 6 or 7 LR tanks would have a pretty tough time against them.

Let me just clarify one thing: if a tank moves, and there's a heavy weapon on its turret, that weapon can still fire normally without any BS penalty? Or am I wrong?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 11:10:47


Post by: Therion


 deltaKshatriya wrote:
Well tanks have got a ton more wounds than other units, so they are more survivable, plus they have the armor save. They are better and more balanced than last edition, but the problem really is that the weapons don't pack as much a punch as something like a ton of infantry (that Guard can throw out) would.

I do think that any army going against 6 or 7 LR tanks would have a pretty tough time against them.

Let me just clarify one thing: if a tank moves, and there's a heavy weapon on its turret, that weapon can still fire normally without any BS penalty? Or am I wrong?


If you have a tank that has 40 wounds, and costs 1000 points, and you have an infantry model, that costs 2 points with a 4+ invulnerable save, which one is more survivable? By the way, this isn't a trick question. You're just pretty out to lunch in what we're actually discussing here.




Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 11:12:46


Post by: deltaKshatriya


 Therion wrote:
 deltaKshatriya wrote:
Well tanks have got a ton more wounds than other units, so they are more survivable, plus they have the armor save. They are better and more balanced than last edition, but the problem really is that the weapons don't pack as much a punch as something like a ton of infantry (that Guard can throw out) would.

I do think that any army going against 6 or 7 LR tanks would have a pretty tough time against them.

Let me just clarify one thing: if a tank moves, and there's a heavy weapon on its turret, that weapon can still fire normally without any BS penalty? Or am I wrong?


If you have a tank that has 40 wounds, and costs 1000 points, and you have an infantry model, that costs 2 points with a 4+ invulnerable save, which one is more survivable? By the way, this isn't a trick question. You're just pretty out to lunch in what we're actually discussing here.




Fair enough, I haven't I haven't been following very closely. I tried. :(

EDIT: if it's points cost we are debating, tbh, tanks have never afaik been cheap and I really doubt that's going to change in any updates. I hope they bring down the cost a bit, or at least add more punch to the tank or something.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 11:28:17


Post by: Trickstick


 Therion wrote:
I really couldn't find anything that says it does. It says you don't have to deploy them. You 'set them up' in some teleport chamber or high altitude transport or whatever.


Aerial Drop: During deployment, you can set up this unit in a high-altitude transport, ready to deploy via grav-chute, instead of placing it on the battlefield.

So setting up the transport is instead of placing on the battlefield, which implies that it would be a choice you had to make at the point in the deployment process that you would place it on the board. I can see there being some confusion, and am willing to admit fault, but that really is how I would read the rule. Other units, for example the drop pod, also use the "instead of" wording. However, a unit like Ratlings specifically states that they wait until both sides are deployed, taking them out of the normal deployment sequence.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 11:49:03


Post by: Therion


 Trickstick wrote:
 Therion wrote:
I really couldn't find anything that says it does. It says you don't have to deploy them. You 'set them up' in some teleport chamber or high altitude transport or whatever.


Aerial Drop: During deployment, you can set up this unit in a high-altitude transport, ready to deploy via grav-chute, instead of placing it on the battlefield.

So setting up the transport is instead of placing on the battlefield, which implies that it would be a choice you had to make at the point in the deployment process that you would place it on the board. I can see there being some confusion, and am willing to admit fault, but that really is how I would read the rule. Other units, for example the drop pod, also use the "instead of" wording. However, a unit like Ratlings specifically states that they wait until both sides are deployed, taking them out of the normal deployment sequence.


If I say, instead of deploying, I'm not going to deploy, does that to you count as deployment?

So, instead of eating ice cream, me eating chips, counts as eating ice cream?

Similarly as you, I'll admit if I'm wrong, but currently I can't see your interpretation being the actual rule.





Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 11:58:26


Post by: Trickstick


 Therion wrote:
If I say, instead of deployment, I'm not going to deploy, does that to you count as deployment?

So, instead of eating ice cream, me eating chips, counts as eating ice cream?



Well it seems enough of a disagreement to warrant wider discussion. To YMDC with this!


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 12:38:42


Post by: labmouse42


Ivan wrote:
So is anyone else concerned with (or happy for, we being Guard) the HeavyFlamer/HeavyFlamer Chimera? Which is available in virtually unlimited slots for 109 points? 2d6 autohits after moving 12" with range 8"... yeah, S5 is anti-infantry only but skipping the to-hit seems absurdly good.

I'm super new to things (like all of us) so please don't jump me if that's not viable. You can move 12" and go "LOL, heavy flamers don't have to take the -1 to hit penalty", right?
Don't forget to toss a storm bolter on for 2 points to get another 4 shots

You also can overwatch with it. You can also assault weaker infantry units with it and tie them up for a round while they flee combat (or stay locked in while a vehicle they likely cannot hurt). Power fists are a thing now and can be a quick end to that plan, just a fair warning. It does work great on units of snipers.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 12:46:27


Post by: Biophysical


Ivan wrote:

So is anyone else concerned with (or happy for, we being Guard) the HeavyFlamer/HeavyFlamer Chimera? Which is available in virtually unlimited slots for 109 points? 2d6 autohits after moving 12" with range 8"... yeah, S5 is anti-infantry only but skipping the to-hit seems absurdly good.

I'm super new to things (like all of us) so please don't jump me if that's not viable. You can move 12" and go "LOL, heavy flamers don't have to take the -1 to hit penalty", right?


I was pondering the Chimera yesterday, and I agree that dual Heavy Flamer looks like the best option. Multilaser is a joke this edition at 10 points, I have no idea how it was decided that it costs more than a Heaavy Bolter at 8. Chimeras used to be half-decent fire support platforms, but with the increased cost, and the drop in heavy weapon squad points cost, and the loss of Command Vehicle and firing points, you really have to leverage its transport ability. That means moving, and that means its shooting sucks unless you're taking Heavy Flamers. With vehicle overwatch, those flamers are even better. Not much makes assault less appealing than 7 S5, ap1 hits against you before you get to swing.

The downside is that Fast Attack choices are not the greatest for the Guard, and the HF Chimera pretty much overlaps with the best Sentinel and Hellhound variants. That being said, with increased speed of assaulters and the increased utility of the Heavy Flamer, I'm not sure this is a bad thing.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 12:54:02


Post by: Otto von Bludd


Ivan wrote:
the criticism directed at the Russ, that the guys at Frontline gaming, who helped balance this edition, consider the battle cannon to be one of the best weapons in the game. With a decent BS and the potential to re-roll that D6 shots, I can see why


I've been stressing about the battle cannon for a couple of weeks now since it's base numbers were announced. Have the full info now and am still mildly stressed... but I think it might be just that the battle cannon has changed from an anti-infantry weapon to an anti-tank weapon and my brain is somewhat slow to adapt.

Really, that's kinda the thing I've been running into over and over and over. This is the first time in 4 editions that things have changed so much that it's hard to theoryhammer without playing actual games (I know, right?!?!). For that alone... and eliminating 7th edition... I'm already grateful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So is anyone else concerned with (or happy for, we being Guard) the HeavyFlamer/HeavyFlamer Chimera? Which is available in virtually unlimited slots for 109 points? 2d6 autohits after moving 12" with range 8"... yeah, S5 is anti-infantry only but skipping the to-hit seems absurdly good.

I'm super new to things (like all of us) so please don't jump me if that's not viable. You can move 12" and go "LOL, heavy flamers don't have to take the -1 to hit penalty", right?


Totally agree about the Battle Cannon, it's role has completely changed. I would say it is now primarily an anti vehicle/MC weapon which retains a bit of usability against infantry/hordes.

I would really like to talk about the Chimera too, I think it has a lot of potential now. Like you said, 2 Heavy Flamers seems to be the only way to run it. I can't see any reason to run it with either ML or HB as it's useless as a bunker (fine by me) and hitting on 5s after moving is horrible, I wouldn't want to pay any points period for a gun that hits on 5s. 2 HFs though seems pretty savage when combined with the unit inside. You provide them with great assault protection on a very durable platform and can clear objectives for the guys inside. Keep your squad near it and deter enemy charges with a brutal overwatch. Ignore all BS modifiers, such as damage, overwatch and movement.

12 transport slots is also key, you can carry a squad as well as a supporting officer or two.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 13:32:03


Post by: McGibs


really couldn't find anything that says it does. It says you don't have to deploy them. You 'set them up' in some teleport chamber or high altitude transport or whatever. There's a different fluff background thing for every unit. How on earth does that imply that you declare one by one that you don't deploy them, and that the declaration counts as a deployment? If it did, I guess Termagants in reserve for Tervigons, and Daemons waiting to be summoned, counted as deployments too? If you did find that rule though, thanks, and link the reference here.


The operative wording is "set up". During deployment, players alternate setting up units (they don't 'deploy' them, they set them up. It's just the deployment phase) until they're finished and the first player to run out of units goes first.
All of the reinforcement style deployments are worded as "you may set up a unit in X instead of on the battlefield". It still counts as a set up for the purposes of alternating what units go where.
The things that get around it are units in transports and, as mentioned, infiltrating.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 14:07:10


Post by: vipoid


Do you think there'd be any value in having an IG army led by Saint Celestine?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 14:45:38


Post by: Therion


Remember that whoever chooses to take the first turn, the other one can still seize on a 6+, and you can use a command point to re-roll that dice ("You can re-roll any single dice." "You can spend Command Points to use a stratagem before or during a battle.")

Can you re-roll the re-roll too? I'm not sure that the clause "remember that a re-rolled dice can't be re-rolled" exists in 8th. If you got 12 command points, if no such clause exists, you'll just re-roll until you get to seize the initiative.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 14:51:18


Post by: Trickstick


 Therion wrote:
Can you re-roll the re-roll too? I'm not sure that the clause "remember that a re-rolled dice can't be re-rolled" exists in 8th.


Nope. Top left section of page 178: "You can never re-roll a dice more than once..."


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 14:53:52


Post by: Therion


 Trickstick wrote:
 Therion wrote:
Can you re-roll the re-roll too? I'm not sure that the clause "remember that a re-rolled dice can't be re-rolled" exists in 8th.


Nope. Top left section of page 178: "You can never re-roll a dice more than once..."


Allright. Well, that's good.

As far as the other issue of 'set up' being the same as deployment is concerned, that's weird, but it's another type of huge advantage for the deep strike heavy army. That means, if you for example have 6 units of Scions and 3 Tempestor Primes, that you can just tell your opponents to set up 9 units in a row (10 if they started deploying), because you're declaring one by one that they go into the dropship. You'll get to see most of your opponent's deployment before you have to put anything to the table.

It would also mean that Astra Militarum armies will never get to choose to go first, but will get to see most of the enemy's deployment before setting up any units, and will still get to start 1/3 of the games due to re-rolling the seize dice once. It's a good deal, and if you know you're probably not going to finish 'setting up' first, you might as well get the Brigade detachment for maximum command points and tons of MSU like Ratlings, Mortar HWS, Eversors, because of their points efficiency.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 15:15:19


Post by: Trickstick


 Therion wrote:
That means, if you for example have 6 units of Scions and 3 Tempestor Primes, that you can just tell your opponents to set up 9 units in a row (10 if they started deploying), because you're declaring one by one that they go into the dropship. You'll get to see most of your opponent's deployment before you have to put anything to the table.


I'd be much more tempted to screw with them by mixing it up a bit. Put down some fast/sacrificial units so that they base their plans around a false idea of what you are going to do, then do the deepstrikers while they set up, then use your main force to do something that they didn't expect at all. That's just a basic example, the mind games you can get into with alternating deployment are huge.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 15:23:52


Post by: ross-128


You can also do interesting things with a combination of deep-strike and Flying Circus list. Units that are in a transport still count as "on the board", even if that transport is a Valkyrie that might as well be giving them a deep strike anyway.

So you can take some infantry, enough Valkyries to put them in, and a bunch of deep-striking Scions. You'd practically be able to null-deploy, with only the Valkyries (in supersonic mode, for that -1 to hit them) and their passengers starting on the table.

Though due to how expensive Valkyries are, you'd end up with quite a low model count for a Guard army. You also wouldn't want to deploy like that against a very shooty army, those poor Valkyries would get swatted out of the sky with nothing else to distract the enemy from them. Of course, you could simply elect to deploy the passengers on foot in that situation and only use the Valkyries as gunships. The "ghetto null deploy" would be saved for choppy armies in order to avoid first-turn charging, because they can't charge the flyers and a choppy army likely doesn't have enough dakka to alpha-strike them.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 16:17:35


Post by: Therion


Here's another take on how to get around the 'Fast Attack tax' and still get a lot of Command Points. 2 Battallions. 9 Command Points.

Exactly half the units go on the table, and half can 'set up' in the dropship. Yarrick was lost, but there's more HWS in there now, and a Psyker to deny and to do some other stuff. He'll kill a few guys here and there. Also, now all of the Scions get re-rolls, and super-charged their firepower is the highest so they benefit from them the most. Power Maul is a decent weapon too for 4 points, pushing the Prime to S5 where it wounds Orks and Marines on 3+, at -1 AP.

BATTALLION Detachment
HQ
-Tempestor Prime, Tempestus Command Rod, Power Maul
-Tempestor Prime, Tempestus Command Rod, Power Maul
ELITES
-Eversor Assassin
-Eversor Assassin
TROOPS
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
Dedicated Transports
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
HEAVY SUPPORT
-Heavy Weapons Squad, 2 Mortars, Lascannon
-Heavy Weapons Squad, 3 Mortars
-Heavy Weapons Squad, 3 Mortars
BATTALLION Detachment:
HQ
-Tempestor Prime, Tempestus Command Rod, Power Maul
-Primaris Psyker
ELITES
-Eversor Assassin
-Eversor Assassin
TROOPS
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
Dedicated Transports
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
HEAVY SUPPORT
-Heavy Weapons Squad, 2 Mortars, Lascannon
-Heavy Weapons Squad, 3 Mortars
-Heavy Weapons Squad, 3 Mortars

Total Points: 2000
Total Models: 80
Total Wounds: 196

This army will smash faces in.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 16:23:45


Post by: Mr Morden


 vipoid wrote:
Do you think there'd be any value in having an IG army led by Saint Celestine?


She does give all Astra M units within 6" a 6+ invuln - hits hard and is hard to kill.

She can even go after flyers now and chop them into bits. Plus she has her own free Act of Faith - not sure if she can use that one on herself ( personally I think she can). If so even on her own she can AOF 12" , move 12" in move phase and then charge 2D6.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 16:26:25


Post by: vipoid


 Mr Morden wrote:

She does give all Astra Milletarium units within 6" a 6+ invuln - hits hard and is hard to kill.

She can even go after flyers now and chop them into bits. Plus she has her own free Act of Faith - not sure fi she can use that one on herself. If so even on her won she can AOF 12" , move 12" in move phase and charge 2D6.


I believe she can use the Act of Faith on herself, as she meets the criteria and the rulebook states that models are always considered to be within range of themselves.

Out of interest, would you take her bodyguard as well or just her?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 18:55:56


Post by: Leth


After having played a game of 8th I caution against too many deep striking units. Remember it is 9 inches from ANY enemy unit. It will be very very easy to box you out of your effective range for most targets you want to get with the plasma guns. Three independent models can completely block deep strike across the short side of the board.

However if you are still thinking in a 7th edition list building mentality it would still work.

Remember hordes are going to be a thing. Tyranids will literally just space out the 100+ Gants/Gaunts they can get . What is your plasma deep strike going to do now?

You need to build a take all comers list that can put out a pure volume of shots on top of dealing with elite units. Also wounding on threes with most things is a huge shift in damage output compared to what I am used to.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 19:09:14


Post by: ross-128


Yeah, as fun as it is to theorize about amusing gimmicks, I'm definitely expecting practical lists to center around large infantry core that is responsible for putting out the necessary volume of fire, supported by a small handful of highly specialized vehicles. Particularly vehicles that saw little or no cost increase between editions, such as the Hellhound, Manticore, and Basilisk.

Back-line vehicles like Manticores and Basilisks also benefit from how Techpriest Enginseers have been changed. They now have a 6" bubble where they can automatically repair a vehicle every turn. The Engineseer can only repair one vehicle at a time, but it's a guaranteed 1d3 repair ever turn. Unlike a medic, he doesn't have to roll for it: he's going to restore at least 1 wound.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 19:48:51


Post by: NenkotaMoon


So where does the humble Leeman Russ fall into that?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 19:50:19


Post by: vipoid


Any thoughts on this list:

Batallion I
Company Commander
Company Commander
Commissar
Infantry squad w/ Lascannon, Plasmagun and Plasma Pistol
Infantry squad w/ Lascannon, Plasmagun and Plasma Pistol
Infantry squad w/ Lascannon, Plasmagun and Plasma Pistol
HWS w/ 3 Lascannons

Batallion II
Company Commander
Company Commander
Commissar

Infantry Squad w/ Autocannon, Plasmagun and Plasma Pistol
Infantry Squad w/ Autocannon, Plasmagun and Plasma Pistol
Infantry Squad w/ Autocannon, Plasmagun and Plasma Pistol
HWS w/ 3 Missile Launchers

Batallion III
Company Commander
Company Commander
Commissar
Infantry Squad w/ Autocannon and Grenade Launcher
Infantry Squad w/ Autocannon and Grenade Launcher
Infantry Squad w/ Autocannon and Grenade Launcher
HWS w/ 3 Autocannons

Batallion IV
Company Commander
Tempestor Prime w/ Tempestor Command Rod, Power Sword
Commissar
Militarum Tempestus Command Squad w/ 4 Plasmaguns
Militarum Tempestus Command Squad w/ 4 Plasmaguns
Infantry Squad w/ Heavy Bolter, Flamer and Plasma Pistol
Infantry Squad w/ Heavy Bolter and Flamer
Infantry Squad w/ Heavy Bolter and Flamer

1500


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 20:16:04


Post by: Biophysical


The decrease in basic squad costs has me making some really interesting decisions. Heavy/special weapon upgrades used to be nearly automatic for me, but now, it doesn't take a lot of upgrades to increase a squad's cost by 50%. 3 lasgun squads vs 2+extra weapons is a much more interesting decision than 4 naked squads vs 3 with extra weaponry. Add in that special and heavy weapons are so relatively cheap in dedicated squads, and that lasguns get 4 shots at close range with orders, and 40 point basic infantry squads look pretty interesting.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 20:31:53


Post by: Ossa


After much deliberation I'm down to the following anchor points for my list:

First: We need the Ministorum. Proper divine guidance for our guardsmen is very important.
Second: Yarrik is needed. Reroll 1's for my Manticores and HWTs and... basically everything? Additionally he's hellingly annoying with his "3+ no die today" with all of my rerolls.
Third: Never leave home without 11 Rerolls. That way I can comfortably settle for a ~1/3 chance to sieze and plan to go second.

  • Saint Celestine is an absolute asset for our gunline army. She gives a 6++ bubble, is mobile enough to stand behind the meatshields and jump over (Act of Faith, so 24" flying Movement) and wreck face with nearly anything. If she gets killed, she will come back - and if needed that can even be on the objective on the other side of the battlefield. The shenanigans with her Gemina with that tears are nice - if she is killed after coming back, her gemina can AoF her back. Did I say she can also AoF to attack twice when in Melee?
    [list] Crusader squads are a joke. 22 Points for two 3++ models, who can AoF and SoF? There are enough units with high strengh, high AP attacks but low number of attacks who wont be able to kill them in a round of combat. No Movement for you this turn. Additionally that makes our Ministorum force a vanguard for +1CP.
    [list] Maxed Conscripts squads, who are spread out across the entire frontline love Yarrik, the saint and priests. And Astropaths for a 4+/5++ !
    [list] Ratlings were discussed at length - but I really love them.
    [list] An Adept Tel Vanguard with a Primaris and 3 Astros is 103 pts for reliable psyker defence, one good spell (+1 Save), one meh one (-2 Leadership - but hey, put them on his backline firewarriors and mortar them for 1-2 casualties) and one which explicitly allows model sniping - even if its only 2d6 range and only one mortal wound. Might come in handy.
    [list] Consripts... I'd take 50 for a meatshield to take any first turn chargers and a second troop as big as possible with sparepoints.


  • Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 20:49:37


    Post by: Mr Morden


     vipoid wrote:
     Mr Morden wrote:

    She does give all Astra Milletarium units within 6" a 6+ invuln - hits hard and is hard to kill.

    She can even go after flyers now and chop them into bits. Plus she has her own free Act of Faith - not sure fi she can use that one on herself. If so even on her won she can AOF 12" , move 12" in move phase and charge 2D6.


    I believe she can use the Act of Faith on herself, as she meets the criteria and the rulebook states that models are always considered to be within range of themselves.

    Out of interest, would you take her bodyguard as well or just her?


    Don't really see any reason not to take them - they are good in their own right, serve as renewable ablative armour and if you have bought the Celestine model then you likely have the two ladies anyway

    if she is killed after coming back, her gemina can AoF her back


    If Celestine leaves the battlefield (she can't actually die ) her gemina go with her.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 20:56:44


    Post by: Ossa


    No, that only happens when you roll a 1 on the ressurection - if it happens at a later date that rule doesnt apply


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 20:59:12


    Post by: vipoid


    Ossa wrote:
    No, that only happens when you roll a 1 on the ressurection - if it happens at a later date that rule doesnt apply


    Remember kids: always save a Command Point to reroll Celestine's resurrection roll.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 21:59:34


    Post by: Marzillius


    What does everyone think about the Shadowsword? If Titanic units turns out to be a common thing in this edition's meta it could be very valuable. A round of fire from it (considering that you use a Command Re-roll to avoid low-rolling on it's number of shots) should cripple most super-heavies, and if it high-rolls you could outright oneshot Titanic units. Even if there are no Titanic units it's very good at taking out tanks and monsters, and with sponsons it can support with loads of heavy bolter and lascannon shots. It seems like a very good unit, as long as the rest of your army is able to cover the Shadowsword's weaknesses, such as infantry hordes, deepstriking alpha units and vehicle-spam.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 23:58:37


    Post by: gungo


    At 2000 pts we will only see a few Titans. If you are playing apoc around 3000 by all means take one as super heavies are getting more common. We probably need more plastic lord of wars to see titans become more mainstream too and then we FW rules will help.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/04 23:59:10


    Post by: Biophysical


     Leth wrote:
    After having played a game of 8th I caution against too many deep striking units. Remember it is 9 inches from ANY enemy unit. It will be very very easy to box you out of your effective range for most targets you want to get with the plasma guns. Three independent models can completely block deep strike across the short side of the board.

    However if you are still thinking in a 7th edition list building mentality it would still work.

    Remember hordes are going to be a thing. Tyranids will literally just space out the 100+ Gants/Gaunts they can get . What is your plasma deep strike going to do now?

    You need to build a take all comers list that can put out a pure volume of shots on top of dealing with elite units. Also wounding on threes with most things is a huge shift in damage output compared to what I am used to.


    I think the mass-drop can still work, just not the way it would have in 7th. If you can get upfield with it, great, but if enemy units close off key areas, you just drop them in your own lines. Having a plan for that is just part of preparing deployment for your list. Its only really a problem if you want to drop units that are only good behind enemy lines, but I don't think that's the case for Scions.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 00:00:38


    Post by: RogueApiary


     NenkotaMoon wrote:
    So where does the humble Leeman Russ fall into that?


    The motor pool.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 00:03:50


    Post by: NenkotaMoon


    So what defends against dead commisars and charges?


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    RogueApiary wrote:
     NenkotaMoon wrote:
    So where does the humble Leeman Russ fall into that?


    The motor pool.


    No...


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 00:12:42


    Post by: Leth


    Biophysical wrote:
     Leth wrote:
    After having played a game of 8th I caution against too many deep striking units. Remember it is 9 inches from ANY enemy unit. It will be very very easy to box you out of your effective range for most targets you want to get with the plasma guns. Three independent models can completely block deep strike across the short side of the board.

    However if you are still thinking in a 7th edition list building mentality it would still work.

    Remember hordes are going to be a thing. Tyranids will literally just space out the 100+ Gants/Gaunts they can get . What is your plasma deep strike going to do now?

    You need to build a take all comers list that can put out a pure volume of shots on top of dealing with elite units. Also wounding on threes with most things is a huge shift in damage output compared to what I am used to.


    I think the mass-drop can still work, just not the way it would have in 7th. If you can get upfield with it, great, but if enemy units close off key areas, you just drop them in your own lines. Having a plan for that is just part of preparing deployment for your list. Its only really a problem if you want to drop units that are only good behind enemy lines, but I don't think that's the case for Scions.


    At that point they are just more expensive veterans , you are investing a lot into that. Without a lot of other ranged or cc units you are going to run into trouble. Right now tyrannies and orky are looking to be the dominant factions right now so keep that in mind.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 00:22:02


    Post by: NenkotaMoon


     Leth wrote:
    Biophysical wrote:
     Leth wrote:
    After having played a game of 8th I caution against too many deep striking units. Remember it is 9 inches from ANY enemy unit. It will be very very easy to box you out of your effective range for most targets you want to get with the plasma guns. Three independent models can completely block deep strike across the short side of the board.

    However if you are still thinking in a 7th edition list building mentality it would still work.

    Remember hordes are going to be a thing. Tyranids will literally just space out the 100+ Gants/Gaunts they can get . What is your plasma deep strike going to do now?

    You need to build a take all comers list that can put out a pure volume of shots on top of dealing with elite units. Also wounding on threes with most things is a huge shift in damage output compared to what I am used to.


    I think the mass-drop can still work, just not the way it would have in 7th. If you can get upfield with it, great, but if enemy units close off key areas, you just drop them in your own lines. Having a plan for that is just part of preparing deployment for your list. Its only really a problem if you want to drop units that are only good behind enemy lines, but I don't think that's the case for Scions.


    At that point they are just more expensive veterans , you are investing a lot into that. Without a lot of other ranged or cc units you are going to run into trouble. Right now tyrannies and orky are looking to be the dominant factions right now so keep that in mind.


    Pretty much my thoughts. All this deep striking for what, to be swarmed to death, tanks that can hit and would less and are more for tanks that are somwhat overpriced for the fire power and a lack of troop options is starting to hit me.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 00:47:27


    Post by: ThePie


    So what do you guyz think about using a stormlord and putting 18 heavy weapons teams in it? (Lets say lascannons in this case)

    The more i think about it the better it sounds

    The megabolter is a pretty decent weapon, and combined with sponsons can put out brutal anti infantry fire.
    At the same time your heavy weapons team are well protected and puts out amazing anti tank fire without having to worry about return fire

    Other bonuses its that its alot easier to deploy without having to put out 18 large bases. And your heavy weapons teams get better firing arcs due to baneblades height, plus you have better chance to go first against other horde armies since you save having to deploy 6 squads


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 00:58:44


    Post by: Leth


    Personally, I find it hard to not take a 50 man conscript blob in every army. it is 50 wounds, 50 lasguns for 150 points!!

    Shoot, take two! A commissar or two and a few orders? You got an amazing meat shield/area denile unit.

    Especially now that blobs are no longer a thing they are your best way to maximize unit buffs

    Also for 10 points rough riders are two wounds and can use their hunting lance every turn now!! 60 points for two outflanking plasmaguns is not bad.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 01:47:33


    Post by: ross-128


    I'd say conscripts are definitely a mech guard player's best friend.

    If you do want to do a mech guard list, you're taking advantage of the fact that mass conscripts are dirt cheap and difficult to sweep off the table. You spend about 20-30% of your list on Conscripts, and maybe 10-15% on their supporting officers, you have all the ablative wounds that your tanks could possibly ask for and you no longer have to worry about enemy light infantry, while having over half your budget to spend on tanks.

    Which is good, because that means all your tanks can focus on heavy infantry and enemy vehicles. All the ordinance weapons are primarily anti-tank now. Heavy bolters and heavy flamers for days can deal with heavy infantry. However, the normal heavy support slots in my opinion should still be occupied by artillery because of how much cheaper it is, Basilisks, Manticores, maybe a couple Hydras if you want some autocannon action.

    The Russes should be in the HQ slot, because they should be tank commanders. Why? BS3+. Sweet, delicious, BS3+. If only they could also give orders to each other, but at least there's Pask (and his amazingly entertaining BS2+) for that. Of course, since Pask is Cadian, you'll want to put him and his Tank Commanders in a Supreme Command detachment so they can sit off on the side being Cadians. Since you're stuffing your HQ slots with tanks, you'll probably appreciate the extra HQ slots anyway.

    And, of course, don't forget to toss in at least one Techpriest because regenerating health every turn is a wonderful thing.

    A mech list doesn't exactly have the slot stuffing for multi-Battalion spam, so instead stick some Hellhounds in the Fast Attack slots so you can take a Brigade instead. The Conscripts and Commissars that go with them will neatly take care of troops/elites anyway. The Hellhounds should also help the Conscript line do a better job of eating assaults.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 02:21:27


    Post by: NenkotaMoon


    So where do Vets factor in these days, the Chimera?


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 02:23:29


    Post by: Otto von Bludd


    I'm not denying Conscripts are great, but are they going to be that hard to kill? 10 Khorne Berzerkers would probably murder all 50 Conscripts in 1 turn and keep going. I'm also expecting snipers to be very common, so if that Commissar gets taken out they are going to start vanishing fast due to battle shock.

     NenkotaMoon wrote:
    So where do Vets factor in these days, the Chimera?


    I keep talking about the potential of dual HF flamer chimeras, but I'm thinking vets with 3 flamers and a HF in said Chimera is going to be nasty assault unit. A true sturm squad.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 02:49:49


    Post by: NenkotaMoon


    But you have no access point for the guard flamers on the Chimera now, just the HF on the Chimera?


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 02:53:34


    Post by: ross-128


    While Khorne Berzerkers are terrifying, they're also a fairly extreme case. Not many units can put out 64 attacks hitting on 3+ the way they can, probably the only other armies that can even think about it are 'Nids and Orks, and the units they use for that don't exactly have MEQ statlines.

    Though, in order to do that they have to use chainswords, which means the conscripts will get their armor save. 64 on 3+ is 42.67 hits, wounding on 3+ is 28.4 wounds, saving on 5+ is 19 dead conscripts. So on average it should actually take them three turns to chew through a Conscript blob, which is over half the game. And that's assuming they don't take any casualties in approach, overwatch, or withdraw-and-shoot.

    The Conscripts will ultimately die, of course, but not before managing to do their jobs.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 02:56:52


    Post by: NenkotaMoon


    Are conscripts 3+, thought they were far more that that, like 5+?


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 03:01:21


    Post by: Biophysical


     Otto von Bludd wrote:
    I'm not denying Conscripts are great, but are they going to be that hard to kill? 10 Khorne Berzerkers would probably murder all 50 Conscripts in 1 turn and keep going. I'm also expecting snipers to be very common, so if that Commissar gets taken out they are going to start vanishing fast due to battle shock.

     NenkotaMoon wrote:
    So where do Vets factor in these days, the Chimera?


    I keep talking about the potential of dual HF flamer chimeras, but I'm thinking vets with 3 flamers and a HF in said Chimera is going to be nasty assault unit. A true sturm squad.


    With Shotguns!

    The differences in how assault works make assaulting with guard squads a bit more reasonable, I think. You pound a bunch of flamers/shotguns/whatever into a squad, then charge to get another couple wounds in. This matters because of how Battle Shock works. Every extra wound you do during the turn has a good chance of translating to a wound in the morale phase. You do open yourself up to return wounds and your own Battle Shock, so the decision will depend on your target and the presence of supporting characters. No bonus attack for charging and no extra attack for two close combat weapons means the sergeants are doing less damage, though, so it's probably only a feasible tactic if you've got a priest or commissar supporting.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 03:01:42


    Post by: ross-128


     NenkotaMoon wrote:
    Are conscripts 3+, thought they were far more that that, like 5+?


    3+ is the khorne berzerkers' chance of hitting them, because that's their weapon skill.
    They then wound on 3+, because it's a S4 Berzerker vs a T3 Conscript.
    Then the Conscripts get a 5+ armor save.

    The point was that berzerkers would have to roll exceedingly well to wipe a Conscript blob in one turn.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 03:08:23


    Post by: Spinner


     NenkotaMoon wrote:
    So where do Vets factor in these days, the Chimera?


    I think a meltavet (maybe with a heavy flamer?) squad still works pretty well in a Valkyrie; grav-chutes let them drop, close in to half range, and start melting stuff.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 03:12:00


    Post by: NenkotaMoon


     Spinner wrote:
     NenkotaMoon wrote:
    So where do Vets factor in these days, the Chimera?


    I think a meltavet (maybe with a heavy flamer?) squad still works pretty well in a Valkyrie; grav-chutes let them drop, close in to half range, and start melting stuff.


    Can Chimera's fly now?


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Flying Chimera's.... a weapon to surpass Metal Gear.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 03:20:25


    Post by: ross-128


    So, what I'm reading here is that you have a chimera meltavet list and all you really care about is if you can still win games with it, without making any changes to your list or playstyle.

    The answer is no. The reason is simple: firing ports are gone. Driveby melta is dead.

    And because you have to get out at the beginning of the movement phase, the Chimera will have to spend at least one shooting phase sitting within 15" (3" disembark+6" movement+6" melta-bonus range) before they can hop out and slag something.

    If you are currently running a driveby melta list, you're going to have to re-organize your army and re-plan your strategy. That is all.

    If you want something that can achieve a somewhat similar effect, albeit with a lower survival rate for the vets, you can take Valkyries instead to do precision combat drops. Because Valkyries can disembark mid-move, allowing them to be super aggressive.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 03:22:19


    Post by: NenkotaMoon


    No more Melta Drift


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 04:05:50


    Post by: Spinner


     NenkotaMoon wrote:
     Spinner wrote:
     NenkotaMoon wrote:
    So where do Vets factor in these days, the Chimera?


    I think a meltavet (maybe with a heavy flamer?) squad still works pretty well in a Valkyrie; grav-chutes let them drop, close in to half range, and start melting stuff.


    Can Chimera's fly now?


    Depends on whether or not you leave them balanced on area terrain someone's likely to put a hand on...


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 06:42:03


    Post by: Therion


    Remember the effects of morale. You only need to kill about 70% of enemy units by average in one turn, and the rest will explode to morale immediately. Kill 19 Orks from a unit of 30, and the rest explode to morale. Kill 7 Khorne Berzerkers from a unit of 10, and the last 3 explode to morale. With careful focus fire, and counter-charges in the right places (like in my list), wiping out masses of the enemy isn't as hard as it first looks.

    Units under the effects of Commissars are an extremely rare exception to this. Conscripts are a good unit for more reasons than just taking hits in the fight phase. You're going to need expendable stuff at the perimeter of your army to prevent deep strikers from coming within 9" of the things you want to be shooting for more turns than one (or none).



    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 07:07:20


    Post by: Blightstar


    Ossa wrote:

  • Saint Celestine is an absolute asset for our gunline army. She gives a 6++ bubble, is mobile enough to stand behind the meatshields and jump over (Act of Faith, so 24" flying Movement) and wreck face with nearly anything. If she gets killed, she will come back - and if needed that can even be on the objective on the other side of the battlefield. The shenanigans with her Gemina with that tears are nice - if she is killed after coming back, her gemina can AoF her back. Did I say she can also AoF to attack twice when in Melee?
    [list] Crusader squads are a joke. 22 Points for two 3++ models, who can AoF and SoF? There are enough units with high strengh, high AP attacks but low number of attacks who wont be able to kill them in a round of combat. No Movement for you this turn. Additionally that makes our Ministorum force a vanguard for +1CP.
    [list] Maxed Conscripts squads, who are spread out across the entire frontline love Yarrik, the saint and priests. And Astropaths for a 4+/5++ !
    [list] Ratlings were discussed at length - but I really love them.
    [list] An Adept Tel Vanguard with a Primaris and 3 Astros is 103 pts for reliable psyker defence, one good spell (+1 Save), one meh one (-2 Leadership - but hey, put them on his backline firewarriors and mortar them for 1-2 casualties) and one which explicitly allows model sniping - even if its only 2d6 range and only one mortal wound. Might come in handy.
    [list] Consripts... I'd take 50 for a meatshield to take any first turn chargers and a second troop as big as possible with sparepoints.

  • -If celestine dies and fails her 2+/dies second time, her Geminae get removed too so no Spirit of Martyr resurrection
    -Crusaders are 15pts. 11 for model and 4 for power sword.
    -Terrify is a good power. 2 extra casulties might not intrest chaff like orks or IG but its good against elite units. Also you cant snipe models with Gaze of the Emperor since it causes mortal wounds to a unit. You can snipe characters thou but 2d6" range is very limiting.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 08:09:09


    Post by: Ir0njack


    Commissars definitely are supreme sniper bait. It sounds like it's going to be a pain in the arse to keep they from getting a bullet through the brain vs armies with easy access to numerous snipers.

    I keep looking at bullgryns and as much as I want to use them 42pt for 1 with slabshield and maul (+2 armor and S7 AP-1 D2) just really doesn't seem worth it. Granted they are statted as basically a worse custodes (-1WS.BS,LD) for 10pts cheaper. They cant be take orders or benefit from anything <Regiment> But you can stick a barebones ministorum priest with them for a extra attack but thats 35pts that could possibly just get sniped out.

    If one of you mathhammer wizards has some time I'd love to see how the maul/slabshield bullgryn stack up against the average custodes Vs various targets


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 09:37:17


    Post by: Therion


     Ir0njack wrote:
    Commissars definitely are supreme sniper bait. It sounds like it's going to be a pain in the arse to keep they from getting a bullet through the brain vs armies with easy access to numerous snipers.

    If one of you mathhammer wizards has some time I'd love to see how the maul/slabshield bullgryn stack up against the average custodes Vs various targets

    Whenever snipers are present, you park your characters behind a wall of vehicles where they can't be seen. 98 points buys 10 T6 3+ wounds and some of the most efficient firepower in the whole game.

    As far as Bullgryns are concerned, they're bad compared to Eversors in every which way.

    Against the target that the Bullgryns are best at, multiwound targets, for example T7 3+ vehicles, Bullgryns on the charge do 1 wound per every 31,5 points they spend. That's a good score, but that's their optimal situation.

    An Eversor Assassin will throw a melta bomb and attack at S5 which is very sub-optimal in the situation, and will still only spend 15,21 points per wound scored. That's an incredible score. Twice as effective as the Bullgryns, even against the Bullgryns' best target. Especially as you consider the 3D6 charge, the deep strike, and the ability to also chew through one wound units with the Executioner Pistol and Neuro Gauntlet.

    Against Orks, you see the unflexibility of the Bullgryns. They'll do 1 wound of damage for every 23,6 points they spend, but those are 6 point wounds that they're causing. An Eversor would do 1 wound for every 8,3 points he spends. Three times more efficient. An Eversor is so good he's better at killing Orks than Genestealers are, point by point. And you can have as many of those guys as you want. You can make an assault army that's stronger than many Tyranid armies.

    What about survivability? Well, the 2+ armour save is certainly great and T5 isn't bad either. Bullgryns pay 14,33 points per wound, but have no ranged weapons and have no delivery mechanism to combat on their own. Eversor pays only 11,66 points per wound, and still has T4 and a 4+ invulnerable too. He also gets a plethora of special rules. Including the bio-meltdown.

    It's not really up in the air which one we'd want, for all situations. That's why my list has 4 Eversors. Depending on how the meta shakes up, I could go all the way to 6.

    Of course, now I compared the Bullgryns to one of the best (maybe the best) assault units in the game. Only Boyz are more efficient at killing things in combat as the Eversor, but they have weaknesses that the Eversor doesn't have, like morale and not paying for actually getting to the combat in the point by point calculation. In a battle of Eversors vs Orks, the Eversors will almost certainly win, because they'll get the charge, and the surviving Orks will not be able to win, and will explode to morale.

    There ya go.



    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 10:20:18


    Post by: Commissar Benny


     Therion wrote:
     Ir0njack wrote:
    Commissars definitely are supreme sniper bait. It sounds like it's going to be a pain in the arse to keep they from getting a bullet through the brain vs armies with easy access to numerous snipers.

    If one of you mathhammer wizards has some time I'd love to see how the maul/slabshield bullgryn stack up against the average custodes Vs various targets

    Whenever snipers are present, you park your characters behind a wall of vehicles where they can't be seen. 98 points buys 10 T6 3+ wounds and some of the most efficient firepower in the whole game.

    As far as Bullgryns are concerned, they're bad compared to Eversors in every which way.

    Against the target that the Bullgryns are best at, multiwound targets, for example T7 3+ vehicles, Bullgryns on the charge do 1 wound per every 31,5 points they spend. That's a good score, but that's their optimal situation.

    An Eversor Assassin will throw a melta bomb and attack at S5 which is very sub-optimal in the situation, and will still only spend 15,21 points per wound scored. That's an incredible score. Twice as effective as the Bullgryns, even against the Bullgryns' best target. Especially as you consider the 3D6 charge, the deep strike, and the ability to also chew through one wound units with the Executioner Pistol and Neuro Gauntlet.

    Against Orks, you see the unflexibility of the Bullgryns. They'll do 1 wound of damage for every 23,6 points they spend, but those are 6 point wounds that they're causing. An Eversor would do 1 wound for every 8,3 points he spends. Three times more efficient. An Eversor is so good he's better at killing Orks than Genestealers are, point by point. And you can have as many of those guys as you want. You can make an assault army that's stronger than many Tyranid armies.

    What about survivability? Well, the 2+ armour save is certainly great and T5 isn't bad either. Bullgryns pay 14,33 points per wound, but have no ranged weapons and have no delivery mechanism to combat on their own. Eversor pays only 11,66 points per wound, and still has T4 and a 4+ invulnerable too. He also gets a plethora of special rules. Including the bio-meltdown.

    It's not really up in the air which one we'd want, for all situations. That's why my list has 4 Eversors. Depending on how the meta shakes up, I could go all the way to 6.

    Of course, now I compared the Bullgryns to one of the best assault units in the game. Only Boyz are more efficient at killing things in combat as the Eversor, but they have weaknesses that the Eversor doesn't have, like morale and not paying for actually getting to the combat in the point by point calculation. In a battle of Eversors vs Orks, the Eversors will almost certainly win, because they'll get the charge, and the surviving Orks will not be able to win.

    There ya go.



    I've been considering taking an assassin in my list, but correct me if I am wrong don't they give you -1 command points for each one you use? They are not part of the IG codex and from what I understand any allies you take outside of it subtracts one from your command points?


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 10:29:47


    Post by: Therion


     Commissar Benny wrote:
     Therion wrote:
     Ir0njack wrote:
    Commissars definitely are supreme sniper bait. It sounds like it's going to be a pain in the arse to keep they from getting a bullet through the brain vs armies with easy access to numerous snipers.

    If one of you mathhammer wizards has some time I'd love to see how the maul/slabshield bullgryn stack up against the average custodes Vs various targets

    Whenever snipers are present, you park your characters behind a wall of vehicles where they can't be seen. 98 points buys 10 T6 3+ wounds and some of the most efficient firepower in the whole game.

    As far as Bullgryns are concerned, they're bad compared to Eversors in every which way.

    Against the target that the Bullgryns are best at, multiwound targets, for example T7 3+ vehicles, Bullgryns on the charge do 1 wound per every 31,5 points they spend. That's a good score, but that's their optimal situation.

    An Eversor Assassin will throw a melta bomb and attack at S5 which is very sub-optimal in the situation, and will still only spend 15,21 points per wound scored. That's an incredible score. Twice as effective as the Bullgryns, even against the Bullgryns' best target. Especially as you consider the 3D6 charge, the deep strike, and the ability to also chew through one wound units with the Executioner Pistol and Neuro Gauntlet.

    Against Orks, you see the unflexibility of the Bullgryns. They'll do 1 wound of damage for every 23,6 points they spend, but those are 6 point wounds that they're causing. An Eversor would do 1 wound for every 8,3 points he spends. Three times more efficient. An Eversor is so good he's better at killing Orks than Genestealers are, point by point. And you can have as many of those guys as you want. You can make an assault army that's stronger than many Tyranid armies.

    What about survivability? Well, the 2+ armour save is certainly great and T5 isn't bad either. Bullgryns pay 14,33 points per wound, but have no ranged weapons and have no delivery mechanism to combat on their own. Eversor pays only 11,66 points per wound, and still has T4 and a 4+ invulnerable too. He also gets a plethora of special rules. Including the bio-meltdown.

    It's not really up in the air which one we'd want, for all situations. That's why my list has 4 Eversors. Depending on how the meta shakes up, I could go all the way to 6.

    Of course, now I compared the Bullgryns to one of the best assault units in the game. Only Boyz are more efficient at killing things in combat as the Eversor, but they have weaknesses that the Eversor doesn't have, like morale and not paying for actually getting to the combat in the point by point calculation. In a battle of Eversors vs Orks, the Eversors will almost certainly win, because they'll get the charge, and the surviving Orks will not be able to win.

    There ya go.



    I've been considering taking an assassin in my list, but correct me if I am wrong don't they give you -1 command points for each one you use? They are not part of the IG codex and from what I understand any allies you take outside of it subtracts one from your command points?


    No, you're mistaken. You're thinking about the auxiliary support detachment, which is intended for situations where you run out of force organisation slots, but really, really want one more unit. Like, you can take 6 heavy support choices, but you really, really want a 7th, so you take it as auxiliary.

    My Assassins are all taken as normal elites choices in the same battalion or brigade detachment as the rest of the army. As long as all your selections share one keyword (In this case <Imperium> ) you can mix and match as you choose. Before you ask, the answer is yes, if you want Saint Celestine or a Space Marines Captain or whatever else in the Imperium to lead your Astra Militarum army, you can take it as a normal HQ choice.





    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 10:41:06


    Post by: Commissar Benny


     Therion wrote:
    No, you're mistaken. You're thinking about the auxiliary support detachment, which is intended for situations where you run out of force organisation slots, but really, really want one more unit. Like, you can take 6 heavy support choices, but you really, really want a 7th, so you take it as auxiliary.

    My Assassins are all taken as normal elites choices in the same battalion or brigade detachment as the rest of the army. As long as all your selections share one keyword (In this case <Imperium> ) you can mix and match as you choose. Before you ask, the answer is yes, if you want Saint Celestine or a Space Marines Captain or whatever else in the Imperium to lead your Astra Militarum army, you can take it as a normal HQ choice.


    Very interesting. Thanks for the reply!


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 11:24:31


    Post by: Therion


    For some fun stuff, what do you guys think about the Stormlord, fully kitted out, carrying 20 Heavy Weapons Teams with mixed weaponry (mortars and lascannons). Yarrick would hide behind the Stormlord model, buffing all of them with the re-roll. A Primaris Psyker would hide right there too, buffing the Stormlord with a 2+ armour save. If there's some really big terrain, you could get cover too for a 1+ save.

    You could park two Manticores behind the Stormlord, so they'd get the Yarrick re-rolls too.

    Deploy everything in a corner on your deployment zone. Dakka dakka. Stormlord get assaulted? He has 9 attacks in combat that do D3 wounds each. Then he drives away from the combat and shoots right away with everything, including the passengers.

    Fun stuff? Best use of a big model yet? Everything else sucks.



    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 11:49:57


    Post by: vipoid


    Blightstar wrote:

    -If celestine dies and fails her 2+/dies second time, her Geminae get removed too so no Spirit of Martyr resurrection


    That's incorrect. The Geminae only get removed if Celestine rolls a 1 the first time she dies. If she successfully revives and is subsequently killed, the Geminae aren't removed as well.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 11:52:49


    Post by: Trickstick


     Therion wrote:
    It's not really up in the air which one we'd want, for all situations. That's why my list has 4 Eversors. Depending on how the meta shakes up, I could go all the way to 6.


    I can't really blame you for the choice but my fluff-loving side cringes at this. Are inquisitors any good now? I would give you less of a (albeit friendly) hard time for that choice if an Inquisitor was about.

     Therion wrote:
    For some fun stuff, what do you guys think about the Stormlord, fully kitted out, carrying 20 Heavy Weapons Teams with mixed weaponry (mortars and lascannons). Yarrick would hide behind the Stormlord model, buffing all of them with the re-roll. A Primaris Psyker would hide right there too, buffing the Stormlord with a 2+ armour save. If there's some really big terrain, you could get cover too for a 1+ save.


    It does seem like a lot of eggs in one basket. A Shadowsword could rip the heart out of you army in a single turn. Also, Yarrick can't buff the HWTs, as they can't be affected by anything whilst inside a vehicle, unless specifically stated otherwise.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 12:03:31


    Post by: Therion


     Trickstick wrote:
     Therion wrote:
    It's not really up in the air which one we'd want, for all situations. That's why my list has 4 Eversors. Depending on how the meta shakes up, I could go all the way to 6.


    I can't really blame you for the choice but my fluff-loving side cringes at this. Are inquisitors any good now? I would give you less of a (albeit friendly) hard time for that choice if an Inquisitor was about.

     Therion wrote:
    For some fun stuff, what do you guys think about the Stormlord, fully kitted out, carrying 20 Heavy Weapons Teams with mixed weaponry (mortars and lascannons). Yarrick would hide behind the Stormlord model, buffing all of them with the re-roll. A Primaris Psyker would hide right there too, buffing the Stormlord with a 2+ armour save. If there's some really big terrain, you could get cover too for a 1+ save.


    It does seem like a lot of eggs in one basket. A Shadowsword could rip the heart out of you army in a single turn. Also, Yarrick can't buff the HWTs, as they can't be affected by anything whilst inside a vehicle, unless specifically stated otherwise.


    Yeah, I realise the HWS can't be affected, but Yarrick buffing the Stormlord+2 Manticores (or something else) is already a force multiplier that should pay Yarrick's points back in just a single turn of shooting.

    The HWS are extremely points efficient firepower, and the Stormlord addresses their biggest weakness (line of sight and survivability). I really don't expect to see Shadowswords, ever, anywhere, but theoretically yeah that gun can do damage. But what kind of an egg basket would it really be? There's really no tax there, as the stuff you're taking with the Stormlord is something you could take otherwise too. So what we're talking about here is the price of the Stormlord (500-600) away from your other stuff, but in a 2000 points army you'll still be able to get Plasma Scions or Eversors or Taurox Primes or Ratlings a combination of them all, or something else.

    I'm not saying it's optimal, I'm just thinking it's a good enough use of a model with the titanic keyword. It really won't be easy to kill once it gets the armor buff from the Primaris Psyker, and this army might actually finish deploying first (7 units in the transport don't set up at all) and get the first turn the majority of the time.

    The bigger (more expensive) the target unit for a 're-roll to hit' or '+1 to saving throw' buff is, the more value you naturally get out of the one giving the buff. A 40 point Psyker buffing a 600 point tank is actually very much worth the points.

    As far as the background thing is concerned regarding the Eversors, I have a theme and backstory planned for my army that will make them fit in really well.






    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 12:05:08


    Post by: Biophysical


    How does thecStormlord drive away from combat without it being a withdraw move?


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 12:07:49


    Post by: Therion


    Biophysical wrote:
    How does thecStormlord drive away from combat without it being a withdraw move?


    The Steel Behemoth special rule, allowing it to Fall Back in the movement phase and still shoot or charge the same turn. It can also fire all of its weapons even if it chooses to remain in close combat.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 12:50:10


    Post by: Trickstick


     Therion wrote:
    I really don't expect to see Shadowswords, ever, anywhere, but theoretically yeah that gun can do damage.


    I was actually looking forward to fielding mine, as I can do an easy barrel swap between Shadowsword/Banesword/Stormsword. It seems like the best variant for sitting still and not getting the -1 to hit. I guess that the Stormlord is pretty nice but I really don't like using transports that I never plan to disembark from. Probably the fact that I don't like painting a load of models which, in an optimal game, will never actually need to come out of the case. I think if I was going for "fun Stormlord", I would put 4 flamer sponsons on it and fill it full of Bullgryns, Commissars, Priests, Culexus, Psykers and all kinds of other goodies. Then drive it into the enemy and try to wreck them.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 12:53:11


    Post by: Biophysical


     Therion wrote:
    Biophysical wrote:
    How does thecStormlord drive away from combat without it being a withdraw move?


    The Steel Behemoth special rule, allowing it to Fall Back in the movement phase and still shoot or charge the same turn. It can also fire all of its weapons even if it chooses to remain in close combat.


    Ah, thanks. I guess I haven't spent much time looking at Superheavies.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 13:18:17


    Post by: Leth


    Even if the conscripts die in one round of combat, its 150 points protecting your entire army.

    Also with commissars around you only lose 1 to battle shock at the end of the round.

    Also, someone correct me if I am wrong but I believe that models can actually kill themselves out of combat if they kill to far and cant pile in within 1". Same with units that have been charged if they are no longer within 1' they are no longer engaged.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 13:28:40


    Post by: Trickstick


     Leth wrote:
    Also, someone correct me if I am wrong but I believe that models can actually kill themselves out of combat if they kill to far and cant pile in within 1". Same with units that have been charged if they are no longer within 1' they are no longer engaged.


    Yup. You do have a lot of control over what you want to happen in combat now, as the defender removes casualties. You can choose to kill your front line, putting you out of combat and able to shoot and charge next turn. Or, you can kill the back models so that you can still get your melee attacks this turn, then fall back next turn to get fire on the enemy. Hell, I just realised that if you get charged by two units, then you use the casualties from the first unit to take the second one out of combat. Instantly saving yourself a lot of casualties there. These ideas work perfectly with a large, homogeneous unit like conscript, as you have no models that are better than any other and would hurt more to lose.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 14:02:09


    Post by: Leth


     Trickstick wrote:
     Leth wrote:
    Also, someone correct me if I am wrong but I believe that models can actually kill themselves out of combat if they kill to far and cant pile in within 1". Same with units that have been charged if they are no longer within 1' they are no longer engaged.


    Yup. You do have a lot of control over what you want to happen in combat now, as the defender removes casualties. You can choose to kill your front line, putting you out of combat and able to shoot and charge next turn. Or, you can kill the back models so that you can still get your melee attacks this turn, then fall back next turn to get fire on the enemy. Hell, I just realised that if you get charged by two units, then you use the casualties from the first unit to take the second one out of combat. Instantly saving yourself a lot of casualties there. These ideas work perfectly with a large, homogeneous unit like conscript, as you have no models that are better than any other and would hurt more to lose.


    Yeah, People are going to learn very quick how important activation order is.

    A few times I activated things in the wrong order and it cost me. The chargers always going first almost cost me a few times as he would be able to take casualties putting my guys out of combat without the required pile ins.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 14:11:28


    Post by: Trickstick


    I'm actually liking what I am seeing with the close combat rules. I have always hated how combat works, but now that characters are separate units and you do things a unit at a time, it seems much easier.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 14:36:25


    Post by: Ossa


    Terrify is a good power. 2 extra casulties might not intrest chaff like orks or IG but its good against elite units. Also you cant snipe models with Gaze of the Emperor since it causes mortal wounds to a unit. You can snipe characters thou but 2d6" range is very limiting.


    Reread the psykic power. You apply mortal wounds explicitly to the model underneath the line.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 14:42:15


    Post by: Trickstick


    Ossa wrote:
    Terrify is a good power. 2 extra casulties might not intrest chaff like orks or IG but its good against elite units. Also you cant snipe models with Gaze of the Emperor since it causes mortal wounds to a unit. You can snipe characters thou but 2d6" range is very limiting.


    Reread the psykic power. You apply mortal wounds explicitly to the model underneath the line.


    Nope. You roll a dice for each model under the line, but for every 4+ the unit takes a mortal wound. So the defender can still apply them wherever they like.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 14:48:19


    Post by: Chris521


     Therion wrote:
     Commissar Benny wrote:
     Therion wrote:
     Ir0njack wrote:
    Commissars definitely are supreme sniper bait. It sounds like it's going to be a pain in the arse to keep they from getting a bullet through the brain vs armies with easy access to numerous snipers.

    If one of you mathhammer wizards has some time I'd love to see how the maul/slabshield bullgryn stack up against the average custodes Vs various targets

    Whenever snipers are present, you park your characters behind a wall of vehicles where they can't be seen. 98 points buys 10 T6 3+ wounds and some of the most efficient firepower in the whole game.

    As far as Bullgryns are concerned, they're bad compared to Eversors in every which way.

    Against the target that the Bullgryns are best at, multiwound targets, for example T7 3+ vehicles, Bullgryns on the charge do 1 wound per every 31,5 points they spend. That's a good score, but that's their optimal situation.

    An Eversor Assassin will throw a melta bomb and attack at S5 which is very sub-optimal in the situation, and will still only spend 15,21 points per wound scored. That's an incredible score. Twice as effective as the Bullgryns, even against the Bullgryns' best target. Especially as you consider the 3D6 charge, the deep strike, and the ability to also chew through one wound units with the Executioner Pistol and Neuro Gauntlet.

    Against Orks, you see the unflexibility of the Bullgryns. They'll do 1 wound of damage for every 23,6 points they spend, but those are 6 point wounds that they're causing. An Eversor would do 1 wound for every 8,3 points he spends. Three times more efficient. An Eversor is so good he's better at killing Orks than Genestealers are, point by point. And you can have as many of those guys as you want. You can make an assault army that's stronger than many Tyranid armies.

    What about survivability? Well, the 2+ armour save is certainly great and T5 isn't bad either. Bullgryns pay 14,33 points per wound, but have no ranged weapons and have no delivery mechanism to combat on their own. Eversor pays only 11,66 points per wound, and still has T4 and a 4+ invulnerable too. He also gets a plethora of special rules. Including the bio-meltdown.

    It's not really up in the air which one we'd want, for all situations. That's why my list has 4 Eversors. Depending on how the meta shakes up, I could go all the way to 6.

    Of course, now I compared the Bullgryns to one of the best assault units in the game. Only Boyz are more efficient at killing things in combat as the Eversor, but they have weaknesses that the Eversor doesn't have, like morale and not paying for actually getting to the combat in the point by point calculation. In a battle of Eversors vs Orks, the Eversors will almost certainly win, because they'll get the charge, and the surviving Orks will not be able to win.

    There ya go.



    I've been considering taking an assassin in my list, but correct me if I am wrong don't they give you -1 command points for each one you use? They are not part of the IG codex and from what I understand any allies you take outside of it subtracts one from your command points?


    No, you're mistaken. You're thinking about the auxiliary support detachment, which is intended for situations where you run out of force organisation slots, but really, really want one more unit. Like, you can take 6 heavy support choices, but you really, really want a 7th, so you take it as auxiliary.

    My Assassins are all taken as normal elites choices in the same battalion or brigade detachment as the rest of the army. As long as all your selections share one keyword (In this case <Imperium> ) you can mix and match as you choose. Before you ask, the answer is yes, if you want Saint Celestine or a Space Marines Captain or whatever else in the Imperium to lead your Astra Militarum army, you can take it as a normal HQ choice.






    This doesn't make a difference now, but when the codexs are released, we may have some serious incentive to keep a list as all Astra Militarum or even a particular regiment. Guard, however, are pretty well equipped to deal with this. We would have to decide on whether to take another detachment with tax units, or just spending the one command point to get your assassin. With the amount of point guard can get, it may be worth considering.




    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 14:53:02


    Post by: Leth


    Spoiler:
     Chris521 wrote:
     Therion wrote:
     Commissar Benny wrote:
     Therion wrote:
     Ir0njack wrote:
    Commissars definitely are supreme sniper bait. It sounds like it's going to be a pain in the arse to keep they from getting a bullet through the brain vs armies with easy access to numerous snipers.

    If one of you mathhammer wizards has some time I'd love to see how the maul/slabshield bullgryn stack up against the average custodes Vs various targets

    Whenever snipers are present, you park your characters behind a wall of vehicles where they can't be seen. 98 points buys 10 T6 3+ wounds and some of the most efficient firepower in the whole game.

    As far as Bullgryns are concerned, they're bad compared to Eversors in every which way.

    Against the target that the Bullgryns are best at, multiwound targets, for example T7 3+ vehicles, Bullgryns on the charge do 1 wound per every 31,5 points they spend. That's a good score, but that's their optimal situation.

    An Eversor Assassin will throw a melta bomb and attack at S5 which is very sub-optimal in the situation, and will still only spend 15,21 points per wound scored. That's an incredible score. Twice as effective as the Bullgryns, even against the Bullgryns' best target. Especially as you consider the 3D6 charge, the deep strike, and the ability to also chew through one wound units with the Executioner Pistol and Neuro Gauntlet.

    Against Orks, you see the unflexibility of the Bullgryns. They'll do 1 wound of damage for every 23,6 points they spend, but those are 6 point wounds that they're causing. An Eversor would do 1 wound for every 8,3 points he spends. Three times more efficient. An Eversor is so good he's better at killing Orks than Genestealers are, point by point. And you can have as many of those guys as you want. You can make an assault army that's stronger than many Tyranid armies.

    What about survivability? Well, the 2+ armour save is certainly great and T5 isn't bad either. Bullgryns pay 14,33 points per wound, but have no ranged weapons and have no delivery mechanism to combat on their own. Eversor pays only 11,66 points per wound, and still has T4 and a 4+ invulnerable too. He also gets a plethora of special rules. Including the bio-meltdown.

    It's not really up in the air which one we'd want, for all situations. That's why my list has 4 Eversors. Depending on how the meta shakes up, I could go all the way to 6.

    Of course, now I compared the Bullgryns to one of the best assault units in the game. Only Boyz are more efficient at killing things in combat as the Eversor, but they have weaknesses that the Eversor doesn't have, like morale and not paying for actually getting to the combat in the point by point calculation. In a battle of Eversors vs Orks, the Eversors will almost certainly win, because they'll get the charge, and the surviving Orks will not be able to win.

    There ya go.



    I've been considering taking an assassin in my list, but correct me if I am wrong don't they give you -1 command points for each one you use? They are not part of the IG codex and from what I understand any allies you take outside of it subtracts one from your command points?


    No, you're mistaken. You're thinking about the auxiliary support detachment, which is intended for situations where you run out of force organisation slots, but really, really want one more unit. Like, you can take 6 heavy support choices, but you really, really want a 7th, so you take it as auxiliary.

    My Assassins are all taken as normal elites choices in the same battalion or brigade detachment as the rest of the army. As long as all your selections share one keyword (In this case <Imperium> ) you can mix and match as you choose. Before you ask, the answer is yes, if you want Saint Celestine or a Space Marines Captain or whatever else in the Imperium to lead your Astra Militarum army, you can take it as a normal HQ choice.






    This doesn't make a difference now, but when the codexs are released, we may have some serious incentive to keep a list as all Astra Militarum or even a particular regiment. Guard, however, are pretty well equipped to deal with this. We would have to decide on whether to take another detachment with tax units, or just spending the one command point to get your assassin. With the amount of point guard can get, it may be worth considering.




    If we look to the deathguard as an example of how it might function we can see that Deathguard might have everyone get "disgustingly resilient" or how according to the print version of the Faction books(someone saw in stores) all DW get access to the special issue ammunition as default, even if not in their profiles.

    If I had to guess we will see that specific factions get access to, and are the only ones who can use, specific strategems. In addition a lot of buffs are tied to specific faction keywords and so we can probably expect that to continue going forward as a way to specifically buff people who take single faction armies. Personally I think it is a great way to make it so you can take anything you want, but if you want to be fluffy here is a boost for your units to make them more efficient. Well done GW.

    I dont think we will see incentives to keep them ALL one faction within a detachment, I think it will just be that fewer units will benefit from access to strategems, character buffs, etc.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 15:10:53


    Post by: Therion


    I don't even consider my new army an Astra Militarum army. I'm building an <Imperial> army. One of the things I like most about the project. Tons and tons of options, and every future <Imperial> release might have a unit or two I could incorporate to the force. The army will have the exact strengths and weaknesses as I intend it to have. It's a new day. Astra Militarum don't have a weakness to close combat, unless you explicitly want it to have that weakness, and so and so forth.







    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 15:13:48


    Post by: Trickstick


     Therion wrote:
    I don't even consider my new army an Astra Militarum army. I'm building an <Imperial> army. One of the things I like most about the project. Tons and tons of options, and every future <Imperial> release might have a unit or two I could incorporate to the force. The army will have the exact strengths and weaknesses as I intended it to have.



    It does seem like a really good way to let people diversify their army, taking bits from all over. I guess that painting a unit from each different list may be more fun than your 200th Guardsman. Hell, you could even try out some Chaos and run your Guard as Renegades. Or a genestealer cult. Or maybe even Gue'vesa if they come around.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 15:17:28


    Post by: Therion


     Trickstick wrote:
     Therion wrote:
    I don't even consider my new army an Astra Militarum army. I'm building an <Imperial> army. One of the things I like most about the project. Tons and tons of options, and every future <Imperial> release might have a unit or two I could incorporate to the force. The army will have the exact strengths and weaknesses as I intended it to have.



    It does seem like a really good way to let people diversify their army, taking bits from all over. I guess that painting a unit from each different list may be more fun than your 200th Guardsman. Hell, you could even try out some Chaos and run your Guard as Renegades. Or a genestealer cult. Or maybe even Gue'vesa if they come around.


    That's what I have always done. My Space Marine armies were from a DIY chapter already back in 3rd edition, so that I could use any Space Marines codex, or even Chaos. I am doing exactly what you just said, giving my force a bit of a sinister theme, with some FW Renegade heads and bitz, and a paint scheme to match. It'll look evil, and it won't be clear whether the army are grim dark good guys, or bad guys. A Commissar could be some hooded priest with a laspistol and power sword. The freedom to use imagination is great. Weaponry wise, I always keep it WYSIWYG.

    With small effort nobody has ever had a problem. Quite the contrary in fact.



    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 15:20:15


    Post by: Trickstick


     Therion wrote:
    That's what I have always done. My Space Marine armies were from a DIY chapter already back in 3rd edition, so that I could use any Space Marines codex, or even Chaos. I am doing exactly what you just said, giving my force a bit of a sinister theme, with some FW Renegade heads and bitz, and a paint scheme to match. It'll look evil, and it won't be clear whether the army are grim dark good guys, or bad guys. A Commissar could be some hooded priest with a laspistol and power sword. The freedom to use imagination is great.

    With small effort nobody has ever had a problem. Quite the contrary in fact.



    Yeah, not much visual difference between heretic filth and loyal hive gangers. I would probably use the Commissar as a chance to change the theme of the army by having 2 models, a chaotic demagogue and an upstanding Commissar. Mainly for the visual contrast between the two models (but really because a black coated Commissar looks so cool!).


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 15:24:02


    Post by: vipoid


     Therion wrote:
    I don't even consider my new army an Astra Militarum army. I'm building an <Imperial> army.


    I'm considering building one that's almost entirely IG, but with a non-IG character leading it. I think the IG HQs are definitely functional, but I find them rather uninteresting for the overall leader (especially now that Company Commanders are dime a dozen).

    I might go with Celestine, albeit refluffed a bit. I want to have a go at making a sort of fallen-angel model based on a DE Scourge.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 15:27:40


    Post by: Therion


     Trickstick wrote:
     Therion wrote:
    That's what I have always done. My Space Marine armies were from a DIY chapter already back in 3rd edition, so that I could use any Space Marines codex, or even Chaos. I am doing exactly what you just said, giving my force a bit of a sinister theme, with some FW Renegade heads and bitz, and a paint scheme to match. It'll look evil, and it won't be clear whether the army are grim dark good guys, or bad guys. A Commissar could be some hooded priest with a laspistol and power sword. The freedom to use imagination is great.

    With small effort nobody has ever had a problem. Quite the contrary in fact.



    Yeah, not much visual difference between heretic filth and loyal hive gangers. I would probably use the Commissar as a chance to change the theme of the army by having 2 models, a chaotic demagogue and an upstanding Commissar. Mainly for the visual contrast between the two models (but really because a black coated Commissar looks so cool!).


    Really depends on the theme, yeah. I really love a lot of the models that will be used. The Tempestus Scions are great too when you don't paint the trims and go for black face masks. I'll be doing something similar to these. I'm absolutely psyched.

    http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee505/revmatt2/Tempestus%20Scions/IMG_8972_zps749bdad4.jpg
    http://awakenrealms.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/P10404391-1024x355.jpg

    I'm ordering some Eversors from Ebay, couple of the old models too, but in the future I might use some twisted creatures as assassins instead. Resident evil experiments? Depends how dark it goes. I'm starting with the 'cynical near future special forces who don't remember what the difference between good and evil was' theme. Anyway, we digress



    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 15:46:29


    Post by: Sincollector


     Therion wrote:
    For some fun stuff, what do you guys think about the Stormlord, fully kitted out, carrying 20 Heavy Weapons Teams with mixed weaponry (mortars and lascannons). Yarrick would hide behind the Stormlord model, buffing all of them with the re-roll. A Primaris Psyker would hide right there too, buffing the Stormlord with a 2+ armour save. If there's some really big terrain, you could get cover too for a 1+ save.

    You could park two Manticores behind the Stormlord, so they'd get the Yarrick re-rolls too.

    Deploy everything in a corner on your deployment zone. Dakka dakka. Stormlord get assaulted? He has 9 attacks in combat that do D3 wounds each. Then he drives away from the combat and shoots right away with everything, including the passengers.

    Fun stuff? Best use of a big model yet? Everything else sucks.



    I'm really liking this idea. One of my favorite parts about it is the Baneblade-chassis vehicles actually have a pretty decent close combat stat line. If an enemy unit does manage to get into melee with you, the Stormlord will average 3 S9 AP -2 D3 hits on them. Then you get to pull back and shoot.

    I think some people are going to be very, very surprised when the giant tanks smack their CC units around.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 15:59:07


    Post by: NenkotaMoon


    So what happens when you move your 50+ Conscripts to an objective and the Commissar has to get out of his cover? As well, what is his range on his instant orders?


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 16:06:03


    Post by: Trickstick


    Well you need to target snipers if they are going to be a problem to your battle plan. I'm considering taking 2x50 conscripts with 2 Commissars backing them up, so at least there is some redundancy. My plan is to rush waves of men at the enemy though, 5th ed Chenkov style.

     NenkotaMoon wrote:
    ...what is his range on his instant orders?


    Commissars have a 6" range. Also, it is more of an aura than an order.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 16:26:18


    Post by: Leth


    Yep, also with controlling of removing casualties and big units it is much easier to trail a unit back to the aura than it is with MSU. Just put the character behind LOS blocking terrain and you are safe from snipers.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 16:28:52


    Post by: Nazrak


    So platoons have gone, right? Seems a bit of a shame from a fluff standpoint, but as someone who's been wanting to give Guard a crack for ages but never really got round to it because of the high barrier to entry of painting up ANOTHER horde army, I feel like this could be a good jumping-off point. How would you more knowledgeable Guard folks rate a Company Commander, Tank Commander, 3-4 infantry squads and one or two more Russes as a starting point?


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 16:36:09


    Post by: Trickstick


     Nazrak wrote:
    So platoons have gone, right? Seems a bit of a shame from a fluff standpoint, but as someone who's been wanting to give Guard a crack for ages but never really got round to it because of the high barrier to entry of painting up ANOTHER horde army, I feel like this could be a good jumping-off point. How would you more knowledgeable Guard folks rate a Company Commander, Tank Commander, 3-4 infantry squads and one or two more Russes as a starting point?


    Jury is still out on Russes. Opinions are ranging from useless to awesome, citing their poor gun performance against their resilience. I guess they need some play testing to see if they have a good place in lists. Other than that, a Company Commander and some men is never going to go out of style.

    Unrelated, but I'm actually looking into using a couple of armoured fist squads in my army to make up 6 troops (2 Scions, 2 Conscripts). They seem cheap objective claimers that are not as bad to sit in transports as veterans are. Any thoughts on 2xflamer chimeras or taurox with a 10 man w/ special inside?


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 16:36:43


    Post by: daedalus


     Nazrak wrote:
    So platoons have gone, right? Seems a bit of a shame from a fluff standpoint, but as someone who's been wanting to give Guard a crack for ages but never really got round to it because of the high barrier to entry of painting up ANOTHER horde army, I feel like this could be a good jumping-off point. How would you more knowledgeable Guard folks rate a Company Commander, Tank Commander, 3-4 infantry squads and one or two more Russes as a starting point?


    Tanks are looking less impressive when compared to HWS, but I'm still going to use them. I'd say it's a good start, but maybe with another Commander. You might want to shove a couple commissars in there too to keep your LD7 guys on the table. If you have to pick something to drop to make room, I'd say drop the tank commander and maybe a russ for now.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 16:38:16


    Post by: Leth


     Nazrak wrote:
    So platoons have gone, right? Seems a bit of a shame from a fluff standpoint, but as someone who's been wanting to give Guard a crack for ages but never really got round to it because of the high barrier to entry of painting up ANOTHER horde army, I feel like this could be a good jumping-off point. How would you more knowledgeable Guard folks rate a Company Commander, Tank Commander, 3-4 infantry squads and one or two more Russes as a starting point?


    I would strongly recommend getting a commisar or two in there and make your tank commander pask if you are planning on running three russes. I know you said no hordes, but I would strongly recommend looking into a large unit of conscripts, especially since it seems you might be more interested in the vehicle side of things. They will provide the bubble wrap that will keep your units alive.

    One of the reasons that blobs are gone now is that orders and auras are super powerful and would be borderline busted on a blob, while at the same time ICs are gone so the need to blob up to maximize buffs are also gone.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 16:53:02


    Post by: STG


     Nazrak wrote:
    So platoons have gone, right? Seems a bit of a shame from a fluff standpoint, but as someone who's been wanting to give Guard a crack for ages but never really got round to it because of the high barrier to entry of painting up ANOTHER horde army, I feel like this could be a good jumping-off point. How would you more knowledgeable Guard folks rate a Company Commander, Tank Commander, 3-4 infantry squads and one or two more Russes as a starting point?

    No way! ah for goodness sake, so all my platoon command squads are useless now. grr


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 16:59:09


    Post by: NenkotaMoon


     Nazrak wrote:
    So platoons have gone, right? Seems a bit of a shame from a fluff standpoint, but as someone who's been wanting to give Guard a crack for ages but never really got round to it because of the high barrier to entry of painting up ANOTHER horde army, I feel like this could be a good jumping-off point. How would you more knowledgeable Guard folks rate a Company Commander, Tank Commander, 3-4 infantry squads and one or two more Russes as a starting point?


    If you've been reading, just take a bunch of conscripts.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 16:59:56


    Post by: daedalus


     STG wrote:

    No way! ah for goodness sake, so all my platoon command squads are useless now. grr


    Command squads still exist, so they can be taken if you want. They're about as configurable as the CCS was before, are 3+ to hit, and hardly "useless", though there may or may not be better choices at this point.

    I imagine I'll still run them.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 17:00:38


    Post by: NenkotaMoon


     Leth wrote:
     Nazrak wrote:
    So platoons have gone, right? Seems a bit of a shame from a fluff standpoint, but as someone who's been wanting to give Guard a crack for ages but never really got round to it because of the high barrier to entry of painting up ANOTHER horde army, I feel like this could be a good jumping-off point. How would you more knowledgeable Guard folks rate a Company Commander, Tank Commander, 3-4 infantry squads and one or two more Russes as a starting point?


    I would strongly recommend getting a commisar or two in there and make your tank commander pask if you are planning on running three russes. I know you said no hordes, but I would strongly recommend looking into a large unit of conscripts, especially since it seems you might be more interested in the vehicle side of things. They will provide the bubble wrap that will keep your units alive.

    One of the reasons that blobs are gone now is that orders and auras are super powerful and would be borderline busted on a blob, while at the same time ICs are gone so the need to blob up to maximize buffs are also gone.


    We need a blob but don't need a blob but do need a bob to blob the blob of the blob's blob.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     daedalus wrote:
     STG wrote:

    No way! ah for goodness sake, so all my platoon command squads are useless now. grr


    Command squads still exist, so they can be taken if you want. They're about as configurable as the CCS was before, are 3+ to hit, and hardly "useless", though there may or may not be better choices at this point.

    I imagine I'll still run them.


    Well they are in the Elite section now, which is pretty overpopulated to begin with.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 17:08:42


    Post by: daedalus


    How do people feel about the power blob at this point? I mean, yeah, I know "blobs" don't exist anymore, but with commissars and LCs hitting on 3+ and 2+ now, I wonder if tossing a few points that way would still be a useful thing to do.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 17:09:18


    Post by: Nazrak


    Cheers all. Prob won't take Pask as I've never been a Named Characters guy, but will take that other stuff on board.

    As for the platoon command squads being "useless", I'm far from a Guard expert but it seems to me like you can still take them, just as a separate choice, but they just aren't compulsory any more.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 17:12:37


    Post by: Trickstick


     daedalus wrote:
    How do people feel about the power blob at this point? I mean, yeah, I know "blobs" don't exist anymore, but with commissars and LCs hitting on 3+ and 2+ now, I wonder if tossing a few points that way would still be a useful thing to do.


    I do like the idea of a Lord Commissar with a powerfist. Still hitting on a 3+ and can do some decent damage.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 17:13:12


    Post by: daedalus


     NenkotaMoon wrote:


    Well they are in the Elite section now, which is pretty overpopulated to begin with.


    Unless I'm missing something, and I've been deliriously sick lately, so it's possible, I feel like people are worrying too much about that. You can have multiple detachments still right? And HQs and Troops are the limiting factor to how many of the small detachments you can run, right? So instead of taking a big detachment, just take a bunch of small detachments. Since blobs don't exist anymore, you just run each detachment as what each of your former troop choices was, and you have a chunk of elites to support each individual blob.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 17:16:47


    Post by: Therion


     daedalus wrote:
     NenkotaMoon wrote:


    Well they are in the Elite section now, which is pretty overpopulated to begin with.


    Unless I'm missing something, and I've been deliriously sick lately, so it's possible, I feel like people are worrying too much about that. You can have multiple detachments still right? And HQs and Troops are the limiting factor to how many of the small detachments you can run, right? So instead of taking a big detachment, just take a bunch of small detachments. Since blobs don't exist anymore, you just run each detachment as what each of your former troop choices was, and you have a chunk of elites to support each individual blob.


    A Brigade for 12 CP allows 8 Elites units. That should be enough for anyone. If you don't want fast attack, you can organise the army into two Battallions for 9 CP. That will allow 12 Elites units. You're right that slots aren't a problem for Elites.



    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 17:22:04


    Post by: deltaKshatriya


     Trickstick wrote:
     Nazrak wrote:
    So platoons have gone, right? Seems a bit of a shame from a fluff standpoint, but as someone who's been wanting to give Guard a crack for ages but never really got round to it because of the high barrier to entry of painting up ANOTHER horde army, I feel like this could be a good jumping-off point. How would you more knowledgeable Guard folks rate a Company Commander, Tank Commander, 3-4 infantry squads and one or two more Russes as a starting point?


    Jury is still out on Russes. Opinions are ranging from useless to awesome, citing their poor gun performance against their resilience. I guess they need some play testing to see if they have a good place in lists. Other than that, a Company Commander and some men is never going to go out of style.

    Unrelated, but I'm actually looking into using a couple of armoured fist squads in my army to make up 6 troops (2 Scions, 2 Conscripts). They seem cheap objective claimers that are not as bad to sit in transports as veterans are. Any thoughts on 2xflamer chimeras or taurox with a 10 man w/ special inside?


    I, for one, have every intention of running a ton of tanks in the 8th edition army, now that they won't be one shot killed as easily. TANKS!

    Jokes aside, I'm gonna try a couple of games and then see how it goes. I used to run a heavy armor list in 7th edition too, with 30 or so conscripts, 1 platoon and 1 veterans squad along with a Knight Paladin. The list wasn't terrible. It was really really good against some armies and terrible against others. Now I feel that matches won't be as 1 sided anymore with that sort of a list. Just my 2 cents though, and a random interjection.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 17:41:28


    Post by: Polonius


    With the lose of fire points, and the decoupeling of all components of a platoon, I'm struggling to see a place for command squads. Commissars do the morale work better, and SWS and Veterans are better for fire platforms.

    I suppose if you really want to roll four flamer squads, they're still cheap. And in a chimera, they can pop out 3" from the hull, advance 6+d6", and still flame on.

    The days of IG armies have multiple command squads is probably over though. There are just far better options to do anything a CS can do.



    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 17:50:50


    Post by: Trickstick


     Polonius wrote:
    With the lose of fire points, and the decoupeling of all components of a platoon, I'm struggling to see a place for command squads.


    It seems that Command Squads are pretty much veteran special weapon squads now. I can see a couple of them in a Valkyrie/Taurox/Chimera with melta/plasma and an Officer, jumping out, taking an order and slagging something. Otherwise, I guess using them as medics could be useful. Maybe a medic and mortar, hiding outside of LOS yet within 6" of something could be good.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 18:09:53


    Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


     Polonius wrote:
    With the lose of fire points, and the decoupeling of all components of a platoon, I'm struggling to see a place for command squads. Commissars do the morale work better, and SWS and Veterans are better for fire platforms.

    I suppose if you really want to roll four flamer squads, they're still cheap. And in a chimera, they can pop out 3" from the hull, advance 6+d6", and still flame on.

    The days of IG armies have multiple command squads is probably over though. There are just far better options to do anything a CS can do.



    They are the same price as SWS, with BS 3+ and can take an extra weapon. And you can fit 3 in a Valkyrie instead of just 2 SWS. I think they are the better suicide unit over SWS, personally.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 18:21:52


    Post by: Blightstar


     vipoid wrote:
    Blightstar wrote:

    -If celestine dies and fails her 2+/dies second time, her Geminae get removed too so no Spirit of Martyr resurrection


    That's incorrect. The Geminae only get removed if Celestine rolls a 1 the first time she dies. If she successfully revives and is subsequently killed, the Geminae aren't removed as well.


    I stand corrected. Damn that gal is still quite a powerhouse. And you can even do unit with rerollable 2++ if you bring 4 celestines! And get your opponent to punch you! Many opportunities to have.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 18:32:34


    Post by: daedalus


     SuspiciousSucculent wrote:

    They are the same price as SWS, with BS 3+ and can take an extra weapon. And you can fit 3 in a Valkyrie instead of just 2 SWS. I think they are the better suicide unit over SWS, personally.


    Yup. They're good sniper squads, suicide special weapon squads. In pretty much any situation you'd use a SWS I can think of, they're better.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 18:33:32


    Post by: Polonius


     SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
     Polonius wrote:
    With the lose of fire points, and the decoupeling of all components of a platoon, I'm struggling to see a place for command squads. Commissars do the morale work better, and SWS and Veterans are better for fire platforms.

    I suppose if you really want to roll four flamer squads, they're still cheap. And in a chimera, they can pop out 3" from the hull, advance 6+d6", and still flame on.

    The days of IG armies have multiple command squads is probably over though. There are just far better options to do anything a CS can do.



    They are the same price as SWS, with BS 3+ and can take an extra weapon. And you can fit 3 in a Valkyrie instead of just 2 SWS. I think they are the better suicide unit over SWS, personally.


    Yeah, I can see that as an application. I didn't have the points in front of me. So, you want 12 specials popping out of a valk, they are the clear choice. Which, ironically, was much of what they did in the last few editions.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 18:39:41


    Post by: daedalus


     Polonius wrote:

    Yeah, I can see that as an application. I didn't have the points in front of me. So, you want 12 specials popping out of a valk, they are the clear choice. Which, ironically, was much of what they did in the last few editions.


    I actually converted mine from the valk gunner bodies because that was my main purpose for them (and because those bodies look more like carapace armor). I kind of giggled when I realized that they would still be doing the exact same thing as before, though I was a little miffed that there's no carapace upgrades anymore.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 19:01:24


    Post by: bogalubov


     Nazrak wrote:
    So platoons have gone, right? Seems a bit of a shame from a fluff standpoint, but as someone who's been wanting to give Guard a crack for ages but never really got round to it because of the high barrier to entry of painting up ANOTHER horde army, I feel like this could be a good jumping-off point. How would you more knowledgeable Guard folks rate a Company Commander, Tank Commander, 3-4 infantry squads and one or two more Russes as a starting point?


    My biggest issue of losing platoons is that now I will have to keep track of separate squads. Also, orders have been diluted in usefulness.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 19:03:03


    Post by: Ragnar Blackmane


     Leth wrote:
    Yep, also with controlling of removing casualties and big units it is much easier to trail a unit back to the aura than it is with MSU. Just put the character behind LOS blocking terrain and you are safe from snipers.

    That's not something I would ever rely on, especially not when you are playing tournaments and don't get to place the terrain. 6" is not much, especially if your character has to hand it out to several squads, and just parking him behind LOS blocking terrain, if there even is any in your deployment zone, won't do as soon as you need to move your units (which you will need to either when the enemy assault units come over and are going to pull off multi-assaults or you need to get moving to grab objectives... or the unit shielding your character gets shot to pieces).

    So you'll need something in your list that is capable of reliably dealing with Snipers. Snipers that are likely to have a 2+ save in cover if they have camo cloaks and will be more than 24" away. Eradicator Russes seem like a decent option, simply because they completely ignore cover bonuses and are essentially a LRBT with 36" range. Sure, they will only kill 1-3 models a turn if unbuffed, but they sould perform quite well if buffed with aim orders. No other IG units seem to ignore cover as far as I can see now that flamers are simply auto-hit without ignoring cover.

    ---
    Also, taking a look at fortifications, what so you guys think about the Imperial Defense Line? 10 points more expensive than an Aegis line without gun (85 instead of 75) but it not only gives +1 leadership to infantry units (nice for Scions/Stormtroopers) in the terrain piece but also gives +1 cover to both infantry units inside AND behind it from the PoV of the model shooting them, which can essentially mean that most if not all of your infantry units get a cover bonus simply for being somwhere behind the rather massive terrain piece (if you use the defense line kit with the two long stretches of trenches which you can extend with the end pieces). Gun emplacements are crap now anyway (hit on 5+ and models nearby only allow you to shoot something else besides the closest target) and aegis lines only give models within 1" behind it a cover save. And having a huge piece of trenches for your IG units is going to be awesome as heck.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 19:05:00


    Post by: daedalus


    I did a thing. I'll get real points on it later when I get time: Hopefully that will help someone, and I think it's right, but let me know if you spot a typo..

    Google Docs AM Spreadsheet


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 19:46:16


    Post by: Leth


     Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
     Leth wrote:
    Yep, also with controlling of removing casualties and big units it is much easier to trail a unit back to the aura than it is with MSU. Just put the character behind LOS blocking terrain and you are safe from snipers.

    That's not something I would ever rely on, especially not when you are playing tournaments and don't get to place the terrain. 6" is not much, especially if your character has to hand it out to several squads, and just parking him behind LOS blocking terrain, if there even is any in your deployment zone, won't do as soon as you need to move your units (which you will need to either when the enemy assault units come over and are going to pull off multi-assaults or you need to get moving to grab objectives... or the unit shielding your character gets shot to pieces).


    While I agree to some extent if the table does not have multiple LOS blocking pieces on the table then I need to have a conversation with my opponent haha. Even a tournaments they are getting much better about terrain.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 19:53:48


    Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


     daedalus wrote:
    I did a thing. I'll get real points on it later when I get time: Hopefully that will help someone, and I think it's right, but let me know if you spot a typo..

    Google Docs AM Spreadsheet


    Manticores and Deathstrikes don't come in squadrons.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 19:55:46


    Post by: Martel732


    I have an ultrasmurf buddy who hasn't lost to the IG since 5th ed. He's in for a rude awakening I think. Being the least spoiled marine chapter helps the transition a lot. BA were already used to fighting for everything.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 20:02:21


    Post by: daedalus


     SuspiciousSucculent wrote:

    Manticores and Deathstrikes don't come in squadrons.

    Good catch. I got carried away with the copy-paste.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 20:41:48


    Post by: Ragnar Blackmane


    Martel732 wrote:
    I have an ultrasmurf buddy who hasn't lost to the IG since 5th ed. He's in for a rude awakening I think. Being the least spoiled marine chapter helps the transition a lot. BA were already used to fighting for everything.

    Put a bunch of Stormtroopers with Plasma on the table and he will be in for a rude awakening .

     Leth wrote:

    While I agree to some extent if the table does not have multiple LOS blocking pieces on the table then I need to have a conversation with my opponent haha. Even a tournaments they are getting much better about terrain.

    Well, the existence of LOS blocking terrain probably won't be a problem, the question will be whether or not it will be in your deployment zone and in a location where you can actually use it for buff bubble purposes .


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 21:59:12


    Post by: Leth


     Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
    Martel732 wrote:
    I have an ultrasmurf buddy who hasn't lost to the IG since 5th ed. He's in for a rude awakening I think. Being the least spoiled marine chapter helps the transition a lot. BA were already used to fighting for everything.

    Put a bunch of Stormtroopers with Plasma on the table and he will be in for a rude awakening .

     Leth wrote:

    While I agree to some extent if the table does not have multiple LOS blocking pieces on the table then I need to have a conversation with my opponent haha. Even a tournaments they are getting much better about terrain.

    Well, the existence of LOS blocking terrain probably won't be a problem, the question will be whether or not it will be in your deployment zone and in a location where you can actually use it for buff bubble purposes .


    Worst case I bring a vehicle right? Haha


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/05 23:51:40


    Post by: Blacksails


    I'll likely end up building a mech/Russ army at some point (after I see what FW offers to help the russes), but seeing as I have 3 shiny Sledgehammer BFGs to act as Basilisks, I figure I'll have to run an arty regiment.

    Arty being as fragile as it is will be protected by my trusty, elite Mordian Iron Guard.

    The tactical question is how much should I spending in support points for each squad? I figure if I have a somewhat even split of Las/Plas squads with other cheaper anti-infantry squads (HB/GL, or Flamer/HB), how many should I bring and how many commissars are reasonable to ensure the bubbles are covered? How many officers should I bring? Are Priests worth it if I give my sergeants, officers, and commissars power weapons? Is it too much toys for too little meat?

    At ~1250 I could fit

    Company Commander w/ Power Sword and Bolt Pistol
    2x Platoon Commander w/Power Sword and Bolt Pistol

    Primaris Psyker w/ Force Stave

    2x Commissars w/Power Sword and Bolt Pistol

    Master of Ordnance

    3x Las/Plas Infantry Squad w/Power Sword
    3x GL/HB Infantry Squad w/Power Sword

    Manticore
    3x Wyvern
    2x Hydra

    Fits comfortably in the Battalion Detachment with ~250pts in Elites, FA, and another HQ I could add.

    Is that enough bodies? Too much support? Any thoughts? Is there any merit to a quality over quantity approach in troops?


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 00:06:28


    Post by: xmbk


    Hiding chars out of los is going to be trickier with all the units that will be popping up exactly where intended. That and snipers will make for an interesting dynamic.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 00:06:30


    Post by: Trickstick


    Seems reasonable. I would probably drop a wyvern for some mortar HWTs, although that is really just because I want to try them out. That would also need an officer to order them, so not really cheaper.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 00:12:10


    Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


    I'm not sold on the MoO, as his re-roll ability only kicks in if the arty is shooting at targets farther than 36" away. That and the barrage is only one use now...


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 00:43:51


    Post by: Blacksails


    Back in 5th I used to run power blobs of 20 or 30 Guardsmen, each squad armed with power swords and an attached commissar and priest. I figure if I have an officer for every 3ish squads, and a commissar for every 2-3, I think I can have some nice buffs without going overboard. I'm cautiously optimistic I can make some sort of power blob action happen again. Might have to dust up a stand-in Straken.

    Arty does look promising though. The MoO is pretty fething cheap for some early re-rolls. I think he'd be perfect is the min range was a little less or at least his own bubble was a little bigger. I don't know where to hide him though.

    The issue I have with HWS in an arty list is that it eats up heavy slots that I'd much rather fill with glorious rockets and vehicle mounted mortars. Plus I'd need to babysit them too with a commissar. I also realize I could try and squeeze the points out of all the support I'd bring to add a defense line. The army would be pretty stationary anyways, might as well get a good save out of it too.

    Even though there's a lot I dislike about this edition so far, and the lack of flavour the current indexes have, the internal balance is definitely better. There doesn't seem to be any units in our list that outright awful. Ogryn are still in a weird spot, but they didn't get worse. Rough Riders are actually useable, and Sentinels look pretty good in both variants. I'm scratching my head over the cost of plasma, but the rest of the wargear seems pretty reasonable. Can't complain about 4pts for a power sword. The Iron Guard is most definitely opening up the vaults to issue every sergeant and even aspiring corporals some dope power weaponry.

    Almost forgot about the Hellhound. A workable tank in the FA slot is a breath of fresh air.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 01:14:19


    Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


    Counterpoint: The MoO is almost the cost of an infantry squad all on his own. You need to weigh if the possibility of re-rolling ones sometimes and a one-shot barrage are more useful to you than an extra 10 bodies between your arty and the angry people they are busy shelling.

    HWS mortars, while competing with your bigger guns, can more consistently get re-rolls from commanders, so might be better than Wyverns in some situations. And since they are out of sight, they are less likely to need a commissar.

    Haven't had a chance to run the numbers or playtest this thought.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 01:24:37


    Post by: xmbk


    I like Ogryns/Bullgryns in a flamer Chimera.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 01:25:41


    Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


    Okay, so you got me curious and I ran some numbers.

    Two mortar heavy weapons squads and a company commander run you 84pts, and net you ~2 wounds against T4 3+ if you give both HWS the Aim order.

    A Wyvern will run you 93pts (since cheapest hull weapon is HB at 8pts) and gets you about 1.75 wounds against T4 3+ including the re-roll to wound.

    Wyvern is obviously more durable, but the HWS 's commander can also order other units as necessary, so I think it's down to preference.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 02:02:47


    Post by: Aesthete


    I'm recently feeling very positive about the Astropath. 15 points if you downgrade to a las pistol (and why would you care about melee weapons on him). You get your basic psyker functionality AND the ability to have a nearby units ignore cover (automatic) against a selected enemy within 18". That seems pretty useful for clearing out annoying units.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 02:18:59


    Post by: NenkotaMoon


    From friends whom played with 8th edition using IG at local shops. It seems orders are great and squads of regulars cheap, but being reduced to only 10 man squads has really hampered them, getting shredded in melee even worse than before, and no way of firing back effectively. Scion literally rule the day with melta and plasma. Flamers are legit good.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 02:33:24


    Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


     Aesthete wrote:
    I'm recently feeling very positive about the Astropath. 15 points if you downgrade to a las pistol (and why would you care about melee weapons on him). You get your basic psyker functionality AND the ability to have a nearby units ignore cover (automatic) against a selected enemy within 18". That seems pretty useful for clearing out annoying units.


    I'm a little worried that 18" may be a bit close given the buffs some melee units appear to have received. May just be paranoia on my part.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 02:40:39


    Post by: NenkotaMoon


     SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
     Aesthete wrote:
    I'm recently feeling very positive about the Astropath. 15 points if you downgrade to a las pistol (and why would you care about melee weapons on him). You get your basic psyker functionality AND the ability to have a nearby units ignore cover (automatic) against a selected enemy within 18". That seems pretty useful for clearing out annoying units.


    I'm a little worried that 18" may be a bit close given the buffs some melee units appear to have received. May just be paranoia on my part.


    It isn't. Expect melee within turn one. Mediocre ain't gonna do crap in 10 man squads. Hate to see Conscripts with less try. Orders are the only thing keeping them together.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 02:43:09


    Post by: Otto von Bludd


     NenkotaMoon wrote:
    From friends whom played with 8th edition using IG at local shops. It seems orders are great and squads of regulars cheap, but being reduced to only 10 man squads has really hampered them, getting shredded in melee even worse than before, and no way of firing back effectively. Scion literally rule the day with melta and plasma. Flamers are legit good.


    I think this does support my idea that Heavy Flamer equipped tanks/sentinels are going to be a useful, perhaps necessary screen for the infantry. Melee is incredibly brutal and without decent melee deterrents Guardsmen are going to get eaten alive. That said, a tank with 2/3 heavy flamers is indeed a good melee deterrent.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 02:50:13


    Post by: NenkotaMoon


    Pretty much. With possibilty of melee even during turn 1, expect a lot of dead guardsmen and wiped squads before you can move an inch. While you will be deploying more, the lost blob squads has really hit guard hard. Maybe conscripts can work after all, but from how quick a 10 man squad can go down with just a few basic tyranids un-upgraded..... ever see Starship Troopers, the first battle scene. Pretty much that.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 05:46:16


    Post by: Biophysical


    Thinking about the loss of blob squads, and I'm not sure it matters right now. When blobs were good, they were good because a single Commissar could keep the whole show running, and you could have multiple power weapons protected by a lot of bodies. They also helped a lot in kill point missions.

    Let's look at a similar formation

    Infantry Squad, Flamer, Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol = 56 points
    3 of these is 168
    Lord Commissar with Power Fist and Plasma Pistol is 65

    All total, you've got a group that costs 233. You can set up the three squads so it's very difficult to charge one squad without charging the other squads. This triggers serious Overwatch shots. It also brings more squads into combat to lend their swings. Heroic Intervention brings the Commissar in, if desired. So you can bring 3 squad's worth of combat power into play, same as the old powerblob.

    The downside is that you can't order all of the squads at once. The upside is that each squad has to be individually targeted, so it's harder to wipe the group out. More units allows more flexibility with how you engage, as well. Compared to old powerblobs, you get a lot fewer attacks, but you do get to fire those plasma pistols in close combat so squads that multicharge your infantry squads eat some pretty solid overwatch, and also have to worry about a handful of plasma pistols dropping some models once its your turn again. The big change compared to old powerblobs, though, is that you can get all your lasguns pouring into an enemy squad before you charge. That helps make up for the lack of bonus attacks for charging by quite a bit.

    The thing is, I'm really not sure if this group of 3 Infantry Squads is any better than a single squad of 50 Conscripts (you can forgo the upgrades and get 4 individual Infantry Squads that definitely have better shooting and close combat power than the Conscripts). It's about the same points and generates about the same level of hits in close combat, although a good chuck of those are power weapons with the Infantry Squads. The addition of Plasma Pistols adds more close combat potency. The Conscripts are clearly tougher, but have a huge footprint, so you might not be able to bring it all into play.

    Now, these are not close combat squads. They are squads that are capable of close combat, and can use that ability when the situation calls for it. The current morale rules are pretty forgiving of Infantry Squads in combat, and I think that if you used to like the old powerblobs in previous editions, you can use similar groups of models to perform similar tactical roles.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 05:51:29


    Post by: Humble Guardsman


    Biophysical wrote:

    This matters because of how Battle Shock works. Every extra wound you do during the turn has a good chance of translating to a wound in the morale phase. You do open yourself up to return wounds and your own Battle Shock, so the decision will depend on your target and the presence of supporting characters.


    This is worth raising again, expect charging Guardsmen to be a much more prevalent occurrence and not just because they can now. When a unit reaches a certain threshold of casualties taken that turn then, barring any character buffs, every additional wound inflicted effectively doubles. A marine tactical squad with a Ld8 Sergeant that has sustained 5, 6 or even 7 casualties in the shooting phase will already be losing additional models without a very good leadership roll. Even if the IG inflict only a single casualty in the combat phase the squad wipe of the marines is all but assured.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 05:57:48


    Post by: Klowny


    Sorry if this has been stated before, but I have a question for you guard players.

    How spammable are snipers in this edition for you guys? Are they spread across multiple units or are they dedicated sniper teams that are fielded?


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 06:11:04


    Post by: Humble Guardsman


     Klowny wrote:
    Sorry if this has been stated before, but I have a question for you guard players.

    How spammable are snipers in this edition for you guys? Are they spread across multiple units or are they dedicated sniper teams that are fielded?


    Ratlings, the dedicated sniper unit of choice, come in a squad of 5 base for 35pts. Otherwise Veterans and SWS can take them, Ratlings camo-cloaks only make them 4+ in cover due to their 6+ armour save, so they're not actually more survivable than other guardsmen in cover. They're damn well cheap enough that it's not so much of an issue though.

    The only downside is that unless you want to put sniper rifles in the hands of the average Infantry Squad then your sniper units are going to be vying for a spot in the Elites section that has a lot of decent options competing for it.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 07:53:35


    Post by: Crimson


     Klowny wrote:
    Sorry if this has been stated before, but I have a question for you guard players.

    How spammable are snipers in this edition for you guys? Are they spread across multiple units or are they dedicated sniper teams that are fielded?

    I'm really pleased that finally you can make somewhat decent non-ratling sniper squads. A command squad is perfect for this, as the guys have BS 3+ and can all have sniper rifles. And it is just four guys, so you can MSU them on rooftops, just like you'd imagine real snipers operating.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 08:36:11


    Post by: Leth


    Where are people getting this competing slot idea from? We literally have a dedicated elite detachment. Slot restriction is no longer a problem. I am personally looking at sniper cmd squads.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 08:50:54


    Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


    Two squads of command snipers and a full unit of ratlings have approximately the same point cost and durability vs bolters when in cover. The command squads get 2 fewer shots, but can take orders. Ratlings get their own set of tricks though.

    Either way you want to go is probably pretty similar in terms of efficiency, so go with what makes sense for your army.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 09:20:34


    Post by: koooaei


    Is it correct that a hwt with a heavy bolter is 12 pts?


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 09:25:05


    Post by: Trickstick


     SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
    Ratlings get their own set of tricks though.


    The ability to move 6" after firing overwatch seems really amusing to me. It almost makes them immune to being charged, unless the enemy gets really close.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 09:32:08


    Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


     koooaei wrote:
    Is it correct that a hwt with a heavy bolter is 12 pts?


    Yep. Each hwt also has a lasgun and frag grenades.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 09:57:37


    Post by: koooaei


     SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
     koooaei wrote:
    Is it correct that a hwt with a heavy bolter is 12 pts?


    Yep. Each hwt also has a lasgun and frag grenades.


    What's the point of fielding regular guardsmen than? Spam hwt as far as an eye can see.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 10:07:27


    Post by: Trickstick


     koooaei wrote:
    What's the point of fielding regular guardsmen than? Spam hwt as far as an eye can see.


    They are heavy support.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 10:13:30


    Post by: koooaei


    You're not forced to run cads with troops. You can easilly field only heavy support ones. That's definitely not a problem - especially for smaller games.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 10:25:53


    Post by: DoomMouse


    Can still take 18 of them though with a brigade and two spearheads.

    I like the way that 54 lascannon teams, 3 commanders, 3 commissars and 174 conscripts would now probably make a fairly competitive 2000pts list...


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 10:36:48


    Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


     koooaei wrote:

    What's the point of fielding regular guardsmen than? Spam hwt as far as an eye can see.


    Honestly? Let's find out. Big thing for basic infantry is FRFSRF.

    At 24" a basic infantry squad with no upgrades under orders puts out 18 lasgun shots. Vs T4 3+ that's one dead marine. At 12" they put out 37 lasgun shots. Vs T4 3+ that's 2.1 dead marines. Lose no effectiveness when moving.

    A full squad of HB hwts put out 9 HB and 3 lasgun shots at 24" dealing 1.67 wounds to marines. At 12" they do 1.83 wounds to marines. If you use the aim order on the hwts, then they also go up to 2.1 dead marines at 12" but they still lose considerable effectiveness when moving.

    So HWTs outshoot or equal basic guard at all ranges but are less mobile.

    How about survivability? 10 T3 wounds vs 6 T3 wounds gives advantage to basic guard squad. Add to that the fact that HWTs are vulnerable to multi-damage shots while basic guard are not makes standard infantry significantly more survivable.

    Melee? We honestly don't want to be here, and conscripts are probably better bubble wrap, but let's run the numbers.
    Infantry squad gets 12 attacks (9 +2 for sarge +1 for chainsword). HWT gets a flat 6. S3 at WS 4+ isn't impressive at all, but double the damage for infantry squads (0.66 wounds on marines vs 0.33 wounds on marines).

    How about morale? Regular infantry get Ld 7 with sarge, and so need to lose 2 wounds to be at risk of battleshock. Even if you roll poorly after taking 2 wounds, you only lose 4pts when a guard runs off. HWTs are Ld 6 but still need to take 2 wounds as well before they are at risk of battleshock, but if they roll poorly you're out 12pts instead of 4. Both of these units can be buffed by commissars, though, so hopefully not a major concern.


    So it looks like basic infantry are a fair bit tougher, a bit harder hitting in melee, and more mobile since they can move and shoot without penalty. They trade this for poorer damage at range and being 4pts more expensive. From this I can see the appeal of a front line of regular infantry, since they will likely be close enough the extra damage at range doesn't matter and can tank for other units a bit better.

    The question is now do regular infantry do this better than conscripts?


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 10:51:18


    Post by: koooaei


    Regular infantry is only dealing better damage at 12'. While hwt can be effective from 36'. It's a significant thing to consider as windrider bike spam is still a thing and you can now easilly meet armies consisting of heavy weapons only.


    Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/06 11:02:03


    Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


    10 regular guardsmen/women are about the same price as 13 conscripts, so let's compare their effectiveness.

    Both with FRFSRF.
    At 24" a basic infantry squad with no upgrades under orders puts out 18 lasgun shots. Vs T4 3+ that's one dead marine. At 12" they put out 37 lasgun shots. Vs T4 3+ that's 2.1 dead marines.

    13 conscripts put out 26 lasgun shots at 24" dealing just under 1 wounds to marines and 52 shots at 12" which deal 1.9 wounds to marines.

    Veeeeeery slight advantage to regular infantry.

    In terms of survivability, conscripts get an extra 3 wounds on regular infantry, so clear advantage there.

    Melee? 12 attacks hitting on 4+ vs 13 attacks hitting on 5+ puts regular infantry ahead with 0.66 wounds on marines vs the conscripts' 0.48 wounds. Not great for either, to be fair.

    Morale? Ld 7 for regular guard vs Ld 4 for conscripts means that you can lose up to 3 additional conscripts even after only a single wound, making it imperative that you keep them in line with commissars or something similar, while regular infantry are somewhat less fragile when away from the commissar's watchful eyes.

    Verdict? Conscripts are more survivable, but have somewhat less damage output both at range and in melee and need closer babysitting than regular guard. If you can reasonably ensure that your buff characters won't be sniped, conscripts are probably the better unit for tanking damage and early charges. But if you lose those key commissars, they will crumble much faster than regular guard squads. So whether or not there is a place for the standard guard squad really depends on the rest of your list.