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Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/10 00:44:50


Post by: deltaKshatriya


So, we're starting to learn more and more about the 8th Edition of Warhammer. One of the thing's I was really looking forward to is how the Guard was going to fair in this new update. And now that they've added some updates:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/09/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-astra-militarum/

And the source for general updates of course:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/warhammer-40000/

So I'm personally seeing a much more competitive Guard in this edition. It looks like vehicles in general are getting a boost with the new rules. As some of you here know, I've really loved running the Guard tank armies, even though they were woefully underpowered and very easily blown up by melta and grav guns. The new Leman Russ rules are basically stating that they have 12 wounds and toughness 8, along with a 3+ Armor save. That I think should make a huge difference in armored warfare in general, since one of the biggest issues with tanks (in particular LR) was that they don't have any sort of save, like jinking.

Orders are now automatic, and seem to be better, plus tons of lasgun shots from Guard armies that all have a chance to hurt will probably bring just about any kind of unit to its knees eventually.

I'm curious to hear what others thing though.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/10 01:19:53


Post by: SonsofVulkan


Seems so. Guard blobs can def be top tier again depending on how commissars and/or fearless work in 8th. The morale thing is in pain in the balls.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/10 05:32:32


Post by: Grimskul


Too early to say, points and what orders are available and in what amount is going to play a big role. Guard certainly are amongst the factions with the most to gain with this new edition, so they'll certainly be better in 8th ed than they are now.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/10 07:17:17


Post by: Bla_Ze


Theoretically it seems that we will get stronger this ed.

Heavy weapons become deadlier. We can how hide them in squads without reducing their effectiveness.

The tanks department im not so sure the LMBT is Toughness 8 and a 3+ save, 12 wounds. That feels only marginally better than for example a dreadnought with T7 3+ and 8 wounds.
But we will see where it places when we se the other tanks like the predator and landraider.

Im guessing it will have a 4+ To hit. That makes them a bit worse at hitting than with the blast rules.





Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/10 13:20:30


Post by: deltaKshatriya


Well the LR vs the dread is going to come down to how much they improved the weapons. In particular, weapons like the Vanquisher cannon were deadly when they hit armor.

Infantry hordes certainly seem better though.

I feel like vehicles in general are getting a boost this time, as opposed to before, when vehicles weren't superb for many roles unless they were skimmers, and even then, they weren't great.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/10 19:37:54


Post by: labmouse42


There are a few things that are making me break out guard again for this edition.

Transport Side Armor
Chimera's side armor has been a huge weakness of the platform. It was very easy to get around that front armor to the side armor, and AV 10 sides might have been toilet paper for armor.
This made it every easy to shake/stun the unit inside and prevent them from doing much. Moving your chimera's in shooting positions was tough.
This has all changed. Now the Chimera can be used to transport troops around into the thick of battle. Sure, they might get destroyed but overall their durability has increased.
Likewise, Taurox AV 10 sides and rear are not as much of an issue.

Guard are (a bit) tougher
In earlier editions, T3 was in a rough spot if you were facing STR 5 weapons. Tau would be wounding on a 2+. T3 is now a bit better, being wounded on a 3+ from both bolters and HBs.
Cover has also gotten a little bit better for the guard. In previous editions, guard were able to sit in cover to get that extra save, but in this edition their normal save just increases. This means light cover will give a nice boost to save from bolters.

50 Man Blocks Are a Thing
50 man blobs can do a ton of damage output. Since you don't have to worry about blast templates, you can throw two units like that behind an ADL with a commissar between them to reduce battle shock.
If the ADL gives a +1 save, the guard behind it will be at a 4+ save, and if the ADL gives +2 cover to units behind it, the guard would be rocking a 3+ save.
The only drawback with that block setup is that it's not very mobile. Holding objectives in ITC events may be an issue. Without the ADL, the block becomes a lot more mobile of a threat.
You can also use movement trays to move the blobs around.

LRBT
I've always loved the LRBT. It's been one of the most iconic images of 40k. The new tank is extremely durable and has a moderate amount of damage output. Sign me up for a few of those.
T8, 3+, 12 wounds is extremely tough. When compared to a dread, the LC is just as effective against both a LRBT and dread (as T7 is wounded as often as T8). When dealing with hits from meltaguns, MLs, or ACs the LRBT really pulls ahead.
Heavy flamers are a fun option for a LRBT. Throwing 3 heavy flamers on one of these is 3d6 hits (that are likely STR 5 and Rend 1). Personally I like the HF's on Chimera's more, but LRBT's are a place you could put them.
The PC sponsons are something that may make a comeback. The way blast templates worked did not make for very reliable weapons. If your opponent spaced correctly, you were only hitting 1-2 targets and likely deviated off. If they change to D3 shots, then it will make them more reliable.

ChimeraHounds
Flamers are now overall very good weapons. They auto-hit and do d6 hits per flamer.
We can expect the kits in the models to stay valid config choices. The chimera can take a heavy flamer in it's turrent and a heavy flamer in the hull. This does a solid ~2.33 MEQ kills. This is the same as 21 bolter shots from marines.
Sitting in that ChimeraHound will be a squad of vets with metaguns or orgyns. Something that wants to get close and personal.
If Chimeras stay cheap, then the ChimeraHounds may become a decent option for aggressive vehicles to move up and take objectives.

Assault Vehicles
Given that units can now assault out of all vehicles (unverified but I've read in multiple places), units like Orgyns can be useful.
Orgyns already have gotten a small buff in that the I2 they had is not as big of a flaw.
While I doubt they will be a match to a death company, five Orgyns hopping out of a Chimera and assaulting will slow down a squad of tactical marines.

Vehicle Squads
We know what specific models in a unit can fire at different targets. We also know that specific units on a vehicle can fire at different targets. This means that taking 3 LRBT in a squadren (if still an option) is not a bad idea. If you play in ITC events, this can make the goal 'kill a unit' much harder to accomplish when your unit has 36 wounds at a T8 with a 3+ save.

You may be able to issue one tank commander to the squadren and issue commands to the entire squadren. Since FRFSRF is still part of the rules, it's quite possible that "Gunners, Kill on Sight!" is. If that's the case the dmg output of the LRBT squadren might be quite significant. Imagine a squadren of 3 LRBT armed with battlecannons and 3 HBs each throwing out 6d6 battle cannon shots, and 54 heavy bolter shots a turn!

Taurox and Taurox Prime
The Taurox Prime looks really sweet. You have to take a unit of Militarum Tempestus, but might still be worth the investment.
The Taurox Prime can really take advantage of the new twin=linking rules. By taking a TL-AC and TL-Gating Cannon, the prime can throw out 20 'bolter' shots a turn, and 4 AC shots a turn. These shots are also done at 3+ to hit. Given that the vehicle is currently priced at 90 points, this might be a very sweet deal.
It's going to depend on how much Militarum Tempestus cost. In the new system a STR 3, Rend -2 gun is not that hot. MEQ are still saving 1/3 of the time. Hopefully they will be cheaper to buy.

Even the vanilla Taurox looks really solid for those units that would rather sit back and shoot. Being able to put a TL-AC on them means they are throwing 4, STR 7, Rend -1 shots downstream (numbers based upon current examples) I can easily see myself splitting up a mech unit between chimeras and Taurox. I'd probably go with ChimeraHounds and dual AC Taurox to get a variety of shooting ability with my transports.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/12 01:22:31


Post by: pantheralegionnaire


The biggest thing for me is the "every weapon has a chance of wounding scary things" rule change. That's huge for guard, as it means that lasguns are actually potentially dangerous, if in sufficient numbers. With the Fire 2/4 clarification, that indicates to me that if things get close to a Blob, they are risking being shot to pieces (in tiny increments). That's a major shift.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/12 01:50:55


Post by: labmouse42


 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
The biggest thing for me is the "every weapon has a chance of wounding scary things" rule change. That's huge for guard, as it means that lasguns are actually potentially dangerous, if in sufficient numbers. With the Fire 2/4 clarification, that indicates to me that if things get close to a Blob, they are risking being shot to pieces (in tiny increments). That's a major shift.
Lets take a 50 man blob with the following
- 5 flamers
- 5 heavy weapons of various loadouts
- 30 lasguns.
IMHO, the flamers pair really well with the blob.

In front of the blob drops a dreadnought. T7, 8 wounds, 3+ save.
The guard use FRFSRF and throw out a staggering 120 lasgun shots. They then shoot 5d6 flamers into the dread.

Each lasgun has the following chance to hurt the dread
1/2 (to hit) * 1/6 (to wound) * 1/3 (failed save) = 1/36 * 120 shots = ~3.33 wounds
Each flamer has the following effect.
1 (to hit) * 1/6 (to wound) * 1/3 (failed save) = 1/18 * 17.5 shots = ~.97 wounds

From just the small arms fire, a dread takes enough wounds to halfway kill it! Lets say that 5 LCs are buried into the squad as heavy weapons, and they come to bear on the dread.
1/2 (to hit) * 2/3 (to wound) * 5/6 (failed save) = 5/18 * 5 shots * 3.5 wounds per shot = ~4.86 wounds

This means that on a roll of average dice (which should be moderately consistant due to the law of large numbers) that 50 man block can drop a dread in a single round.

Edit :
If you are curious, the same blob with just the flamers will kill ~9.58 Marines. Thats ~6.67 from the 120 lasguns and ~2.91 from the flamers.
Owch. Imagine the face on a marine players face when he drops next to your blob and has his sternguard squad vaporized from lasgun fire.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/12 11:20:17


Post by: koooaei


What you didn't take into consideration is the cost of a 50-man blob + comsquad vs a dread. It's quite likely that guards will be more expensive as they pretty much got a 5+ save (it now matters). And that dread will likely be in cover while the blob won't. And that they'll loose a lot of guyz first as it's not their turn.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/12 12:15:07


Post by: labmouse42


 koooaei wrote:
What you didn't take into consideration is the cost of a 50-man blob ....
Respectfully, I think you missed the point of the exercise. It's to run numbers and see just how much firepower a commsquad has. Variables like "dread might be in cover" or "what if some guard are killed" or "what about the LRBT and Taurox right next to the dread" don't apply in these cases -- as we know we don't play in a void. The purpose for mathhammer is to build baselines of effectiveness (or the lack thereof) in the game.

I'm not sure if guard will get more expensive. We will have to see how that pans out. GW has claimed they have done extensive playtesting with this edition, so the best hope is that it will be balanced.

Edit : From the news release on 5/12/2017, we know the following
"The full squad totals up at a similar number of points to what it costs today. "
"Tactical Marines would cost 13 points each"
"With faster play times for most games, we’re expecting matched play games of a couple of hours to sit around the 2,000 points mark."
This strongly indicates that the squads will cost roughly the same as they do today. Based on what we saw for marines, the cost of the average guardsman might go down (!) but the cost of the weapon upgrades go up.
We will just have to see.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/13 22:27:36


Post by: deltaKshatriya


There are still a lot of unknowns. Melta, for example, is still fairly unknown. Is there still an armorbane rule?

Troops I feel like are definitely a bit better for Guard regardless of rules. Take a 50 man blob, with first rank fire, second rank fire, in rapid fire range. That's 150 shots. Say they keep old BS (which they probably will). About 75 should hit. They all have a chance to wound, as I understand. Correct me if I'm wrong.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/14 00:56:16


Post by: KayTwo


I'm still worried about the lack of blast templates. How will the MoO work? The Deathstrike Missile launcher?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/14 15:26:19


Post by: deltaKshatriya


Manticore and other artillery pieces can get worse because of no blast templates.

Is there any update on the rules for blasts? I think I might've missed it.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/14 15:27:53


Post by: Kanluwen


 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Seems so. Guard blobs can def be top tier again depending on how commissars and/or fearless work in 8th. The morale thing is in pain in the balls.

No, it's really not provided you don't do stupid things.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/14 16:27:41


Post by: creeping-deth87


You guys think the Russ got MORE durable? I gotta say, I very much disagree. Las Cannons went from needing 5s to needing 3s to damage you, which is literally double the odds it had before to do something, and are going to be doing D6 wounds with a -3 to your save every time they hit you. Missile launchers need 4s where before they needed 6s, and auto cannons which couldn't even hurt the Russ before now get through on 5s. Yes, you'll have an armor save now, but against the above weapons you're never getting that 3+ save and the variable wounds mechanic is probably going to leave you with something that takes about as many anti-tank shots as before but is wounded way more easily.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/15 02:44:47


Post by: Martel732


It's more durable vs melta, and can't be shaken with a single lucky shot. Also, think of all the ways to straight up ignore AV in 7th.

No one was using missiles or lascannons because they couldn't handle MCs worth a damn. Being good against weapons that no one uses is in itself worthless.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/15 05:30:13


Post by: Bla_Ze


 creeping-deth87 wrote:
You guys think the Russ got MORE durable? I gotta say, I very much disagree. Las Cannons went from needing 5s to needing 3s to damage you, which is literally double the odds it had before to do something, and are going to be doing D6 wounds with a -3 to your save every time they hit you. Missile launchers need 4s where before they needed 6s, and auto cannons which couldn't even hurt the Russ before now get through on 5s. Yes, you'll have an armor save now, but against the above weapons you're never getting that 3+ save and the variable wounds mechanic is probably going to leave you with something that takes about as many anti-tank shots as before but is wounded way more easily.


Durable or not, im happy we aint exploding on ONE lucky hit. Sure lascannons are now dangerous, but unreliable.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/15 06:42:41


Post by: koooaei


 creeping-deth87 wrote:
You guys think the Russ got MORE durable? I gotta say, I very much disagree.


It's more stable. It is easier to damage with weapons that couldn't be as reliable or wouldn't even have any effect before - like a lazgun or autocannon - but harder or close to impossible to get one-shotted with meltas, lazcannons, plazmas to the back and power fists/axes. And you can no longer expect a squad trukkboyz to reliably glance a leman russ to death.

Man, it took 7 edtions to drain the supply of expodium for vehicle-building purposes.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/15 19:03:49


Post by: labmouse42


 deltaKshatriya wrote:
There are still a lot of unknowns. Melta, for example, is still fairly unknown. Is there still an armorbane rule?
GW released the rules for the melta gun. It's STR 8, -4 AP, d6 wounds (rerolling wounds if within 6").


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 creeping-deth87 wrote:
You guys think the Russ got MORE durable? I gotta say, I very much disagree. Las Cannons went from needing 5s to needing 3s to damage you, which is literally double the odds it had before to do something, and are going to be doing D6 wounds with a -3 to your save every time they hit you.
You are assuming you are shot on the front. On the AV13 sides or rear the LRBT was less durable.
As others mentioned, the real big win on the LRBT is that they are not vulnerable to a sudden explosion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 deltaKshatriya wrote:
Troops I feel like are definitely a bit better for Guard regardless of rules. .
From what GW has released, low T troops are better. T3 models are wounded on a 3+ by STR 5, which is a good boost. Guard now get their 5+ save to bolters. My question is, how much better will vets be over regular guard? How much more will they cost?

I'm going to make another guess in that chimera's will be statically much like a razorback. Instead of AV 11/11/10, it's 12/10/10. You can get one with dual HB or HF, where the razorback can bring a TL-HB. The RB does not have any fire points, but has a 3+ to hit. The very nature of this way chimera's work now changes how they can be played. You don't need to worry about the sides any more, allowing you to be much more aggressive with them.

More Chimera Thoughts
As I mentioned, I think there are one of two practical configurations for the Chimera in this edition. Dual HB or Dual HF.

We know that heavy weapons will impose a -1 to hit, which means that a dual HB chimera needs to stand still to do much good. Leaving 4 empty dual HB chimeras on the side of a blob squad or russ squad to act as screening is not a horrible idea. Chimeras are decent sized models and can be used to block enemy movement.

Dual HF Chimeras (ChimeraHounds) do a little bit more than twice the damage output of a dual HB Chimeras. (~7 auto-hitting shots vs 6 shots that hit on a 4+/5+). The weakness is that they can't shoot at a target further than 8" away. Assuming a 6" move, that's a 14" threat range. Parking a few of these to screen your blobs is not really very wise, as they will not be able to shoot. Where I see these vehicles coming into play is if you can bring vet squads with meltas/flamers/PGs. Pushing 2-3 vets up to hold objectives and hit that BT with some melta is a great option. If they die ... well, that's just part of being in the guard!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 deltaKshatriya wrote:
Manticore and other artillery pieces can get worse because of no blast templates.

Is there any update on the rules for blasts? I think I might've missed it.
We know that a flamer template now does d6 hits (3.5 average) and a battle blast does d6 shots. It's reasonable to assume that all large blasts will do d6 shots.
I'm going to make a guess here and say that small blast templates will probably do d3 shots.

This has an impact for the Leman Russ Executioner. If my guess is right, that tank will be making 5d3 STR 7, AP -3 shots with PC sponsons.
The PC are not as big of a drawback since LRBT now get a save for overheating (assuming the mechanic stays the same).

More Russ Thoughts
"Gunners, Kill on Sight" has a good possibility of making a LRBT squad a mini-deathstar. Today we learned that the stormsurge's hooks will cause the stormsurge to get +1 to hit. If that order means that a LRBT gets the same benefit, then it will be a damage increase of 33%. If it doubles the shots then it's a damage increase of 100%. Given that split fire is a thing, 3 LRBTs in a squad with different configs might be a big guard thing. I know that I'm going to be taking a close look at this and playtesting it when the rules are dropped.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/15 19:47:23


Post by: daedalus


 labmouse42 wrote:

As I mentioned, I think there are one of two practical configurations for the Chimera in this edition. Dual HB or Dual HF.

We know that heavy weapons will impose a -1 to hit, which means that a dual HB chimera needs to stand still to do much good. Leaving 4 empty dual HB chimeras on the side of a blob squad or russ squad to act as screening is not a horrible idea. Chimeras are decent sized models and can be used to block enemy movement.

Dual HF Chimeras (ChimeraHounds) do a little bit more than twice the damage output of a dual HB Chimeras. (~7 auto-hitting shots vs 6 shots that hit on a 4+/5+). The weakness is that they can't shoot at a target further than 8" away. Assuming a 6" move, that's a 14" threat range. Parking a few of these to screen your blobs is not really very wise, as they will not be able to shoot. Where I see these vehicles coming into play is if you can bring vet squads with meltas/flamers/PGs. Pushing 2-3 vets up to hold objectives and hit that BT with some melta is a great option. If they die ... well, that's just part of being in the guard!


Do we actually know if vehicles treat heavy weapons the same as infantry do with the -1 to hit on a move?

Also, have we seen the stat block for a HB or a HF?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/15 19:53:11


Post by: labmouse42


 daedalus wrote:
Do we actually know if vehicles treat heavy weapons the same as infantry do with the -1 to hit on a move?

Also, have we seen the stat block for a HB or a HF?
Yes. It has been confirmed by GW.
"Heavy weapons are worth talking about too. These no longer snap fire if you move, and instead they have a flat -1 to hit modifier for moving units. This applies to all models with heavy weapons, vehicles included."
I'm willing to bet that the 'Lumbering Behemoth' rule will allow LRBT to move and not take that penalty. I've lost my share of bets, I'll admit.

We have seen the twin linked heavy bolter. They have not put out the rules for the heavy flamer, but at this point, we can see the pattern for weapons.
AP 4 : -1
AP 3 : -2
AP 2 : -3
AP 1 : -4

Large Blast : d6 shots
Flamer Template : d6 hits

All ranged weapons that I have seen have had the same STR. I doubt we will see a jump/drop in the STR of an autocannon, etc.
As such, we can bet the HF will be STR : 5, AP -1, D6 hits.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/15 19:59:33


Post by: daedalus


Huh. Good catch.

Yeah, that's going to be an interesting one. I guess whichever one I take will depend on how survivable in practice Chimeras are. I guess for a melta squad, flamers would actually make a lot of sense, as they'll be getting close, but if you have, say, a heavy weapon squad in the chimera, maybe the bolters instead.

Do we know anything about squads firing from a transport?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/16 00:20:37


Post by: labmouse42


 daedalus wrote:
I guess for a melta squad, flamers would actually make a lot of sense, as they'll be getting close, but if you have, say, a heavy weapon squad in the chimera, maybe the bolters instead.
That's what I was thinking too. Given the changes to the TL weapons (TL weapons now have twice the shots) the TL AC Taurox is not so unappealing. It's probably going to be weaker than the chimera, but it's something to think about.
6 HB shots are better against infantry, the 4 AC shots would be better against light armor. My thought was to have 2 melta-vets in ChimeraHounds and then normal guard for the other 3 transports, probably with 2 HBchimeras and 1 Taurox. I'll play with the blend to see what works.

 daedalus wrote:
Do we know anything about squads firing from a transport?
Nope.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/16 02:48:28


Post by: Otto von Bludd


Don't discount the Multilaser just yet. Hopefully it will be tweaked to somehow keep up with the new Heavy Bolter.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/16 10:51:48


Post by: labmouse42


 Otto von Bludd wrote:
Don't discount the Multilaser just yet. Hopefully it will be tweaked to somehow keep up with the new Heavy Bolter.
Based off what we can estimate, this will be the stats for the multi-laser. Again, this is based off all the weapon types we have seen thus far, and it might be different.

Multilaser : STR 6, AP 0 , Heavy .
Heavy Bolter : STR 5, AP -1, Heavy 3

The multilaser effectively trades out a point of AP for a point of STR. In 5th-7th edition, this was a good thing, as that extra AP was useless vs most targets. With the new wound chart, and AV now taking away from saves -- the dynamic changes.
Against MEQ targets, the HB and ML are wounding on a 3+. The MEQ is saving vs the HB on a 4+ and against the ML on a 3+. The HB is 50% more effective vs GEQ. (.5 killed vs .333 killed per shot)
Against GEQ targets, the ML is wounding on a 2+, and the HB is wounding on a 3+. The ML gives a 5+ save, where the HB gives a 6+ save. The ML and HB are equally good here. (.833 killed)
Against a dread, both weapon wound on a 5+. The AP on the ML means it's still 50% more effective vs a dread.
Likewise, if a rhino is T6 with a 3+ save they are equally as effective.

The ML pulls ahead when we get to T10-T11 targets.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/16 11:45:46


Post by: CovenantGuardian


 labmouse42 wrote:
 daedalus wrote:
Do we actually know if vehicles treat heavy weapons the same as infantry do with the -1 to hit on a move?

Also, have we seen the stat block for a HB or a HF?
Yes. It has been confirmed by GW.
"Heavy weapons are worth talking about too. These no longer snap fire if you move, and instead they have a flat -1 to hit modifier for moving units. This applies to all models with heavy weapons, vehicles included."
I'm willing to bet that the 'Lumbering Behemoth' rule will allow LRBT to move and not take that penalty. I've lost my share of bets, I'll admit.

We have seen the twin linked heavy bolter. They have not put out the rules for the heavy flamer, but at this point, we can see the pattern for weapons.
AP 4 : -1
AP 3 : -2
AP 2 : -3
AP 1 : -4

Large Blast : d6 shots
Flamer Template : d6 hits

All ranged weapons that I have seen have had the same STR. I doubt we will see a jump/drop in the STR of an autocannon, etc.
As such, we can bet the HF will be STR : 5, AP -1, D6 hits.



The Large blast is not confirmed, based on a FB post GW made they sort of hinted at leman russ battle cannon being downgraded to small blast to not make an OP anti tank gun. The newly released stats of a small blast frag grenade for marines does 1d6 hits. In AOS blasts are either 1d6 or 2d6 depending on the size of the target, we know that is not the case in 40k 8th but it does suggest 2d6 hits is for the large blasts might be possible.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/16 12:14:45


Post by: labmouse42


CovenantGuardian wrote:
The Large blast is not confirmed, based on a FB post GW made they sort of hinted at leman russ battle cannon being downgraded to small blast to not make an OP anti tank gun. The newly released stats of a small blast frag grenade for marines does 1d6 hits. In AOS blasts are either 1d6 or 2d6 depending on the size of the target, we know that is not the case in 40k 8th but it does suggest 2d6 hits is for the large blasts might be possible.
That would be really nice if large blasts were 2d6.

Would that mean that the Leman Russ Executioner with PC sponsons is doing 5d6 PC shots a turn? :O


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/16 12:42:37


Post by: CovenantGuardian


 labmouse42 wrote:
CovenantGuardian wrote:
The Large blast is not confirmed, based on a FB post GW made they sort of hinted at leman russ battle cannon being downgraded to small blast to not make an OP anti tank gun. The newly released stats of a small blast frag grenade for marines does 1d6 hits. In AOS blasts are either 1d6 or 2d6 depending on the size of the target, we know that is not the case in 40k 8th but it does suggest 2d6 hits is for the large blasts might be possible.
That would be really nice if large blasts were 2d6.

Would that mean that the Leman Russ Executioner with PC sponsons is doing 5d6 PC shots a turn? :O


Just like with the battle cannon, don't assume anything regarding the nature of blasts from 7th to 8th. If it sounds OP it was probably adjusted


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/16 13:07:41


Post by: labmouse42


CovenantGuardian wrote:
Just like with the battle cannon, don't assume anything regarding the nature of blasts from 7th to 8th. If it sounds OP it was probably adjusted
Agreed. GW has been pretty clear on trying to make this as 'balanced as possible'.

What have been your thoughts about the IG toolkit?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/16 13:10:02


Post by: Kanluwen


 labmouse42 wrote:
Agreed. GW has been pretty clear on trying to make this as 'balanced as possible'.

What have been your thoughts about the IG toolkit?

That I need Lasguns back for Sergeants and Tempestors.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/17 09:45:06


Post by: Humble Guardsman


Did anyone else catch that you can move units out of combat as a normal move? No hit-and-run roll or anything, just move them out.

That sounds pretty frikkin amazing. I might be inclined to actually run my IG infantry as 10-men squads instead of blobs. Have any guardsmen that survived an enemy charge move out of the way (and run since they can't shoot anyway) then lay into the enemy melee with a whole bunch of FRFSRF from another squad or three. Rinse and repeat if there are any choppy guys left still standing. That opens up a whole new realm of tactics for shooty armies, fire and withdraw style.

I think the IG are going to do just fine in this edition.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/17 14:19:28


Post by: deltaKshatriya


The rules for twin-linked and lascannons also make Vendetta gunships downright deadly to MCs and vehicles. I'd be curious to see how the artillery pieces, like Manticores and Basilisks, will fair.

The reserve rules are also very interesting imo. So at least half of the army has to be on the table, plus not everything can do reserves. But it looks like that some things can charge immediately after coming in from reserves. That's an...interesting tweak, which presents some interesting issues for Guard armies.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/17 23:02:10


Post by: Humble Guardsman


If the Trygon example is anything to go by, they'll need to roll a 9 on the 2D6 charge roll. A risky endevour, but I don't doubt assault heavy armies won't at least try it. They would probably be saving their Command Point re-rolls for that exact moment. What I'm not sure about is 'deep-striking' transports. Is disembarking from a vehicle over 9" from the enemy an easy way to cut that distance down before the charge?

It's clear that bubble-wrapping attractive targets with inexpensive infantry squads is going to be more vital than ever.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/17 23:25:25


Post by: labmouse42


 deltaKshatriya wrote:
The rules for twin-linked and lascannons also make Vendetta gunships downright deadly to MCs and vehicles
It will sure help! GEQ get a 33% damage increase from TL weapons under the new rules, where MEQ get a 50% increase in damage output. This is due to the MEQ hitting on a 3+, meaning that instead of going from a 8/9 chance to hit, they have two chances to hit at a 2/3 chance. GEQ go from hitting 75% of the time to having 2 chances to score 50% of the time.

Taurux prime (assuming they hit on a 3+) will reap the 50% benefit from their guns. I'm willing to bet some orders also will give a +1 to hit.

 deltaKshatriya wrote:
The reserve rules are also very interesting imo. So at least half of the army has to be on the table, plus not everything can do reserves. But it looks like that some things can charge immediately after coming in from reserves. That's an...interesting tweak, which presents some interesting issues for Guard armies.
It makes me a bit worried for vendettas. Do they start on the board? Will they be vulnerable on first turn? Will flyers be hard to shoot down?

In regards to the 'deep strike' assault, it will make placement more important. If your units are all clumped together, you can get assaulted and then consolidated into assault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Humble Guardsman wrote:
It's clear that bubble-wrapping attractive targets with inexpensive infantry squads is going to be more vital than ever.
Yep. Infantry surrounding a LRBT squadron sounds very thematic to me.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/17 23:44:57


Post by: Desubot


KayTwo wrote:
I'm still worried about the lack of blast templates. How will the MoO work? The Deathstrike Missile launcher?


Oh man never even though about DSML

i hope its something absolutely ridiculous.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/18 16:24:30


Post by: daedalus


So with the Necron Barge thingy being T6 W8 Sv4+, what's everyone thinking as far as their tankbusting at this point?

If that's an AV11 skimmer, I think we can expect other lightweight vehicles to be somewhat similar. Since that doesn't look too hard to punch through at this point, I'm not sure how comfortable that makes me about my Chimeras now.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/18 16:26:17


Post by: Desubot


 daedalus wrote:
So with the Necron Barge thingy being T6 W8 Sv4+, what's everyone thinking as far as their tankbusting at this point?

If that's an AV11 skimmer, I think we can expect other lightweight vehicles to be somewhat similar. Since that doesn't look too hard to punch through at this point, I'm not sure how comfortable that makes me about my Chimeras now.
while not being too hard to punch through dont forget armor saves and large pool of wounds.

im thinking with proper use of cover it wont be that bad.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/18 16:33:47


Post by: Martel732


 daedalus wrote:
So with the Necron Barge thingy being T6 W8 Sv4+, what's everyone thinking as far as their tankbusting at this point?

If that's an AV11 skimmer, I think we can expect other lightweight vehicles to be somewhat similar. Since that doesn't look too hard to punch through at this point, I'm not sure how comfortable that makes me about my Chimeras now.


As long as they are appropriately priced, it won't matter.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/18 16:59:24


Post by: Otto von Bludd


 Humble Guardsman wrote:


It's clear that bubble-wrapping attractive targets with inexpensive infantry squads is going to be more vital than ever.


I think quite the opposite actually, bubble wrap will be far less important than it previously was. Not only will vehicles be far more survivable in melee but they will actually be able to fight back on their own. No longer will your Leman Russ fear a squad of tactical marines in melee, it will take those marines forever to do any damage rather than only needing 3 6s to kill your tank. That isn't to say bubblewrap is a bad idea, but it is far less important in 8th.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2617/05/18 17:29:04


Post by: labmouse42


 daedalus wrote:
So with the Necron Barge thingy being T6 W8 Sv4+, what's everyone thinking as far as their tankbusting at this point?
Lets run some math on it. Lets look at what an average set of weapons will do.
Weapon.......................Wounds Done.................Shots Until Dead
GEQ MG.......................1.167...............................6.87
GEQ AC.......................0.444...............................18
GEQ LC.......................0.875...............................9.14
GEQ LG.......................0.041...............................192
GEQ HB.......................0.333...............................24
GEQ ML.......................0.555................................14.4
GEQ SL.......................0.375...............................21.33
That's nearly 7 MG shots to wreck the annihilation barge. It would still take just over 5 vet MG shots to kill the barge. If the vets are within 6", then it will take
~4 MGs to wreck the barge.

Those are are actually tough nuts to crack. That's 24 different HB shooting at the barge before it wrecks. The balancing factor is that the vehicle gets weaker before it's gone.

Even the old say of Eldar scatbikes would have a hard time cracking this. It would take 16 different scatbikes (that are moving and hitting on a 4+, 12 if they are standing skill) to wreck the barge. Under the 7th edition rules, it takes 3.5 bikes shooting to wreck the AV11 vehicle. That means the vehicles are nearly 500% more resiliant to scat bikes! And that's just a transport....

 daedalus wrote:
If that's an AV11 skimmer, I think we can expect other lightweight vehicles to be somewhat similar. I'm not sure how comfortable that makes me about my Chimeras now.
My guess is that the Chimera will be T6 as well. It's a reasonable guess to assume it will also have around 8 wounds. I'm guessing the Chimera will be a 3+ save.
The Taurox may only be T5. It might be T6 with less wounds. I'm hoping the Taurox will be able to move 12". I'm guessing the Taurox will be 4+ save.

The question is -- can units still fire out of the vehicles? Can you have 6 vets grabbing the lasguns on the chimera and 3 still pop out the hatch to shoot their melta guns? Can you still have 8 guys shoot out of a Taurox (2 fire points on each side of the hull, units getting split fire so can use all 4 fire points) I think that will be the real test of the vehicles. If your units can stay at near full effectiveness when in a transport, then they will be awesome. They will be a turtle shell around squishy troops. If they cannot shoot out, then the transports will just be that -- transports. Useful, but nowhere nearly as good.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/18 17:41:15


Post by: daedalus


 labmouse42 wrote:
 daedalus wrote:
So with the Necron Barge thingy being T6 W8 Sv4+, what's everyone thinking as far as their tankbusting at this point?
Lets run some math on it. Lets look at what an average set of weapons will do.
Weapon.......................Wounds Done.................Shots Until Dead
GEQ MG.......................1.167...............................6.87
GEQ AC.......................0.444...............................18
GEQ LC.......................0.875...............................9.14
GEQ LG.......................0.041...............................192
GEQ HB.......................0.333...............................24
GEQ ML.......................0.555................................14.4
GEQ SL.......................0.375...............................21.33
That's nearly 7 MG shots to wreck the annihilation barge. It would still take just over 5 vet MG shots to kill the barge. If the vets are within 6", then it will take
~4 MGs to wreck the barge.

Those are are actually tough nuts to crack. That's 24 different HB shooting at the barge before it wrecks. The balancing factor is that the vehicle gets weaker before it's gone.

That feels way more crazy durable than I was expecting, though I haven't actually ran my own projections yet. Out of curiosity, does that take into account the d6 wounds on the lascannon? What about AP modifications vs the 4+ save? Given that the ML and HB are basically swap one point of AP for one point of penetration, I'd think the numbers would be near identical.

Are those assuming average results? Maybe I just need to alter my expectations.

 daedalus wrote:
If that's an AV11 skimmer, I think we can expect other lightweight vehicles to be somewhat similar. I'm not sure how comfortable that makes me about my Chimeras now.
My guess is that the Chimera will be T6 as well. It's a reasonable guess to assume it will also have around 8 wounds. I'm guessing the Chimera will be a 3+ save.
The Taurox may only be T5. It might be T6 with less wounds. I'm hoping the Taurox will be able to move 12". I'm guessing the Taurox will be 4+ save.

The question is -- can units still fire out of the vehicles? Can you have 6 vets grabbing the lasguns on the chimera and 3 still pop out the hatch to shoot their melta guns? Can you still have 8 guys shoot out of a Taurox (2 fire points on each side of the hull, units getting split fire so can use all 4 fire points) I think that will be the real test of the vehicles. If your units can stay at near full effectiveness when in a transport, then they will be awesome. They will be a turtle shell around squishy troops. If they cannot shoot out, then the transports will just be that -- transports. Useful, but nowhere nearly as good.


I really hope you're right about the saves. Transports are going to be pretty interesting. I think they keep saying an article is going to come up about that soon. I think it would be the swift death of quite a few AM armies if they removed the fire point rules though. I'd probably still play them, but I'd play with much fewer of them.

I wonder how morale is going to work with squadrons now, or if squadrons are even going to be in the new edition.

Unrelated to vehicles:
Also, we haven't really seen melee weapons yet, but the "defender chooses casualties" bit makes me think that power blobs can become viable again. I guess that depends on how Priests and Commissars look like though.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/18 18:00:13


Post by: labmouse42


 daedalus wrote:
That feels way more crazy durable than I was expecting, though I haven't actually ran my own projections yet. Out of curiosity, does that take into account the d6 wounds on the lascannon? What about AP modifications vs the 4+ save? Given that the ML and HB are basically swap one point of AP for one point of penetration, I'd think the numbers would be near identical.
Sorry, ML was for missile launcher, and SL for the multi-laser.
They are identical when shooting at a dread. The 4+ going to a 5+ is not as big of a drawback as 3+ to a 4+, which causes it to go from 24 to 21.1 hits to wreck.
Part of the big reason for this durability increase is that STR 8 weapons are only wounding on a 3+.
You can look at my work here, likes 77-84. Please check and make sure I'm honest
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WTQyvPyRlR7fRzHuDLmybt9sR4bFyF0IXJV3Hn0MIdg/edit?usp=sharing
 daedalus wrote:
Are those assuming average results? Maybe I just need to alter my expectations.
Yes, they are average results. 2 lucky LC shots will still wreck a barge.
 daedalus wrote:
I really hope you're right about the saves. Transports are going to be pretty interesting. I think they keep saying an article is going to come up about that soon. I think it would be the swift death of quite a few AM armies if they removed the fire point rules though. I'd probably still play them, but I'd play with much fewer of them.
Agreed.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/18 18:11:50


Post by: daedalus


I think your math is good. I hadn't considered ML=missile launcher in spite of the fact that it's by far the more common weapon. The numbers make much more sense with that in mind. I guess I just had Chimeras on the brain.

I guess vehicles really are tougher than they look. I wonder how point cost is going to reflect these changes.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/18 18:13:53


Post by: Desubot


 daedalus wrote:
I think your math is good. I hadn't considered ML=missile launcher in spite of the fact that it's by far the more common weapon. The numbers make much more sense with that in mind. I guess I just had Chimeras on the brain.

I guess vehicles really are tougher than they look. I wonder how point cost is going to reflect these changes.
speaking of ML i wonder if taking upgrades is going to be worth it now.

always liked the look of a single missile rack on the top of my vehicles.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/18 21:04:30


Post by: Freddy Kruger


Hmm. I've always wanted to run a Guard army, and with 8th looking promising and Anvil Industry doing very nice "trench fighter" models, my dream of creating a British WW1 themed guard army might FINALLY become a reality...


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/19 14:28:48


Post by: Leth


Cant wait to see what FW does for my Kriegers!! In regards to the OP's question, they almost had nowhere to go but up so I am betting they will be more competative, however the way to play will be COMPLETELY different. So I am excited to revisit how I build my units(how awesome would it be to work in MORTARs for god sakes!!)


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/20 00:08:48


Post by: deltaKshatriya


So while not directly related to Guard, the rules for the Imperial Knights also seems to be fairly interesting. I find it interesting that the Knight is double the wounds of an LR tank.

I wonder if the Vanquisher cannon is going to be deadlier this time around, given the rules for Lascannons.

I really did like my Guard armor list with infantry and a Knight in tow, so I really love the changes so far.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/20 15:31:26


Post by: deltaKshatriya


Does anyone know if close combat wounds still carry over in vehicle squadrons? Like if one tank in a squad is stuck in close combat, do the wounds from that still carry over to the other tanks in the squad? Just wondering if they changed that up at all.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/20 15:53:13


Post by: Crimson Devil


Do we even know if vehicle squadrons exist in 8th?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/21 17:00:01


Post by: Gibblets


What does everyone think about the Taurox now being 20 shots Gatling Cannon and 8 shots Volley gun? What an anti infantry beast.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/21 21:30:18


Post by: labmouse42


 Gibblets wrote:
What does everyone think about the Taurox now being 20 shots Gatling Cannon and 8 shots Volley gun? What an anti infantry beast.
It looks sweet. The question will be all about the point costs.
The new vehicles article suggests that the Taurox will be at least a T5 with 6 wounds, and likely tougher.

Edit : The new rules about CoD gives some indications of interesting things.

It suggests a grenade is D6 shots. Does that mean that the grenade launcher might be a useful weapon for a change?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/23 04:38:27


Post by: SonsofVulkan


I'm very excited for the new IG but the biggest thing I worry about is the potential increase in price of special and heavy weapons like meltaguns and LC. The more those cost, the less tanks and artilleries we can take, and we need anti-veh/MC badly in 8th.

Also I hope priests still grant fearless.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/24 04:16:14


Post by: dreadlybrew


Very excited for 8th.

if extra Armor grants 2-6 more woulds will it be playable?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/24 14:59:23


Post by: Leth


Just finished repairing my vulture and vendetta, cant wait to see the rules for our crazy number shots fliers. Between IG and the orks we are going to need buckets of dice


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/24 15:19:53


Post by: BlaxicanX


If they want extra armor to work in a similar fashion to how it did before, I imagine the simplest way would be for it to increase the wounds threshold for suffering permanent damage, ie if a vehicle were to lose 1bs at 8 wounds, extra armor would make it so that a vehicle only loses the 1bs at 5 wounds, etc.

What I'm hoping for is camo-netting still giving a +1 cover save. That means Leman Russ will have a 2+ save by default.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/24 18:47:54


Post by: Desubot


 Crimson Devil wrote:
Do we even know if vehicle squadrons exist in 8th?
Possibly

the new fw leviathan machina malifcawhatever says a "unit" with this rule.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/24 19:23:13


Post by: Leth


No reason they wouldnt. Plus with split fire most of the downsides go away and the benefits might actually make it worth doing.

Would be sweet if we could drop pod in full dread talons now since there is no scatter on the drop pods.

Honestly I just hope they give DKOK meaningful rules and platoons instead of getting worthless bonuses and a 10 point increase......


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/24 19:44:28


Post by: labmouse42


I don't expect them to get rid of vehicle squads.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/25 02:05:21


Post by: deltaKshatriya


Mainly I hope that wounds accumulated on one unit in a vehicle squad don't spill over to other units. Remember when one tank would get attacked in melee and all the other ones would blow up too because of the shear amount of wounds inflicted on that one tank? That's something I'd hate to see continue.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/25 22:56:49


Post by: Cpt. Icanus


Multiple damage doesn't spill over to other models, obly multiple shots/hits do. Stated in the weapons teaser iirc.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/26 14:59:42


Post by: vipoid


 daedalus wrote:
So with the Necron Barge thingy being T6 W8 Sv4+, what's everyone thinking as far as their tankbusting at this point?


Where's that information from?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/26 15:33:07


Post by: daedalus


It's in the vehicle page they did:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/18/new-warhammer-40000-vehicles-may18gw-homepage-post-4/

Profile is for "Annihilation Barge".

I don't know if that's going to be an accurate baseline for most vehicles, but I'm operating under the assumption that anything less than a Land Raider/LR is going to be roughly around that statline, plus or minus maybe a point on any given stat. At least, that's what I'm assuming. And converting my new mordians to be ready to deal with.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/26 17:34:50


Post by: Leth


 daedalus wrote:
It's in the vehicle page they did:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/18/new-warhammer-40000-vehicles-may18gw-homepage-post-4/

Profile is for "Annihilation Barge".

I don't know if that's going to be an accurate baseline for most vehicles, but I'm operating under the assumption that anything less than a Land Raider/LR is going to be roughly around that statline, plus or minus maybe a point on any given stat. At least, that's what I'm assuming. And converting my new mordians to be ready to deal with.


I would guess that most AV 10 things will be toughness 6 at most.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/26 18:40:46


Post by: vipoid




Ah, cheers. I was wondering if I'd missed a Necron preview.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/26 18:49:11


Post by: Martel732


IG is going to be much better off because the heavy bolter and lascannon aren't jokes.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/26 19:03:43


Post by: vipoid


I wonder if Lord Commissars will have a point in this edition.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/26 19:32:33


Post by: labmouse42


 Leth wrote:
I would guess that most AV 10 things will be toughness 6 at most.
We have seen what an AV 10 open topped skimmer looks like. T5
Spoiler:


We have seen what an AV 11 vehicle looks like. T6
Spoiler:


We have seen what an AV12 walker looks like T7
Spoiler:


We have seen what an AV13/13/12 walker looks like. T8
Spoiler:


We have seen an AV 13 knight : T8
Spoiler:


We have some of the stats of the LRBT : T8
Spoiler:
Leman Russes, for example, have Toughness 8 and a 3+ save, so they won’t be slowing down until they’ve lost half of their 12 Wounds.


At this point, we don't have enough information to guess what will make for good AM builds.
I have heard Reece say in his playtesting (on the FLG podcast) that he had a tough time maneuvering all his tanks between ruins. He cracked about how it's no longer 'parking lots' but 'rush hour traffic'. This is a suggestion that armored firsts might be pretty good. There might even be multiple builds that are really good. We only have a few more weeks until we find out.

Edit
------
Reece also mentioned in his Faction Review that Sentinels are really good. If they are T5 with 6 wounds, that makes them much more durable than they are in 7th.
How good they are really depends on their point cost and their weapon loadout.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/26 20:11:02


Post by: Leth


 labmouse42 wrote:
 Leth wrote:
I would guess that most AV 10 things will be toughness 6 at most.
We have seen what an AV 10 open topped skimmer looks like. T5
Spoiler:


We have seen what an AV 11 vehicle looks like. T6
Spoiler:


We have seen what an AV12 walker looks like T7
Spoiler:


We have seen what an AV13/13/12 walker looks like. T8
Spoiler:


We have seen an AV 13 knight : T8
Spoiler:


We have some of the stats of the LRBT : T8
Spoiler:
Leman Russes, for example, have Toughness 8 and a 3+ save, so they won’t be slowing down until they’ve lost half of their 12 Wounds.


At this point, we don't have enough information to guess what will make for good AM builds.
I have heard Reece say in his playtesting (on the FLG podcast) that he had a tough time maneuvering all his tanks between ruins. He cracked about how it's no longer 'parking lots' but 'rush hour traffic'. This is a suggestion that armored firsts might be pretty good. There might even be multiple builds that are really good. We only have a few more weeks until we find out.

Edit
------
Reece also mentioned in his Faction Review that Sentinels are really good. If they are T5 with 6 wounds, that makes them much more durable than they are in 7th.

How good they are really depends on their point cost and their weapon loadout.


One thing I think they highlighted in the terrain rules was that only infantry really get free reign in ruins. So vehicles have to move around them. Something to consider.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/27 00:07:17


Post by: NH Gunsmith


Leth, that is a very good point. But, that would require people to actually put a decent amount of terrain on the table to begin with. Most games I have seen barely have any since it is an inconvenience to a lot of people. My group seemed to be the only people that packed terrain into our games.

I am truly excited to see how the basic infantryman navigating freely through cover changes the game, and, if we get any mobility boosting orders.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/27 02:42:18


Post by: Leth


 NH Gunsmith wrote:
Leth, that is a very good point. But, that would require people to actually put a decent amount of terrain on the table to begin with. Most games I have seen barely have any since it is an inconvenience to a lot of people. My group seemed to be the only people that packed terrain into our games.

I am truly excited to see how the basic infantryman navigating freely through cover changes the game, and, if we get any mobility boosting orders.


Yeah then its going to impact how things work for you. I play at least 25% with one or two LOS blockers on each side of the table. Otherwise its just a shooting gallery and that is boring.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/27 17:59:35


Post by: Otto von Bludd


The new rules for cover will affect AM; it appears that in order to get a cover save the entire unit must be in or on a terrain feature. If that is the extent of the rules for cover then it will be nearly impossible for a large Guard blob to get a cover save.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/27 19:20:09


Post by: Leth


From what I understand I think the advanced rules has more rules for terrain. Since we know that terrain types are affected by the unit type we can infer there is more specific information to come.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/27 22:26:11


Post by: Ravajaxe


 Otto von Bludd wrote:
The new rules for cover will affect AM; it appears that in order to get a cover save the entire unit must be in or on a terrain feature. If that is the extent of the rules for cover then it will be nearly impossible for a large Guard blob to get a cover save.
Then build or convince the guys at your club to build large terrain elements.

OK easier said than done...


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/27 22:42:28


Post by: Trickstick


I think that large blobs of Guard moving upfield may be viable again:

-Defender removes casualties, so no losing inches anymore and you can keep all your good models safe at the front

-Can use rapid fire weapons and still charge

-Charger goes first

-Templates are no more, so you can squash as many bodies together as can fit. This allows insane concentration. It used to be that a 50 man blob was really hard to move around and generally a lot more trouble than it was worth. Possibly not anymore.

The death of the power blob was the inches you would lose from casualties as well as losing power weapons before combat. Now, as long as Guard get some kind of morale negating buff, large power blobs may be back!


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/27 23:33:51


Post by: Leth


We also have no idea what the mission objectives are or how things like an aegis work. Plenty of awesome potential for the guard.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/28 01:41:27


Post by: labmouse42


 Otto von Bludd wrote:
The new rules for cover will affect AM; it appears that in order to get a cover save the entire unit must be in or on a terrain feature. If that is the extent of the rules for cover then it will be nearly impossible for a large Guard blob to get a cover save.
Why? AM don't have to worry about blast templates any more. I'm planning on using movement trays 10 guard wide and 5 guard deep, or slightly differently shaped if blobs can still have 5 heavy weapon teams embedded in them.

 Leth wrote:
We also have no idea what the mission objectives are or how things like an aegis work. Plenty of awesome potential for the guard.
An ADL will most likely be +1 or +2 cover.
If it's +2 cover, that will be insanely good, giving the blobs behind it the same saves as MEQ.

Even if it's +1 cover, and you stick your LRBT behind it, they will be getting a 2+ save -- making them much more durable against many weapons.
Of course, the flaw with the ADL is that it limits your movement. I don't expect guard to play like a leaflower list again.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/28 02:40:27


Post by: Otto von Bludd


The entire unit must be on or in a terrain feature. Seems difficult to get all 50 guardsmen on or in a terrain feature to me, but I guess it depends on the terrain you use.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/28 17:23:38


Post by: Biophysical


I've been out of the game for all of 7th edition, but 8th ed is reeling me back in. The stats for grenades have me wondering the great red-headed stepchild of special weapons might have a better role in the world of armor save modifiers. Grenade Launchers might be true multipurpose weapons if they're cheap enough to be spammed in a platoon command squad or special weapon squad, if those make the transition intact. 3 grenade launchers would be 3d6 s3 attacks at 24", even while advancing. Alternatively, the krak option is actually a threat to higher armor saves, and is potentially very useful in the world of multiwpund models everywhere. The plasma gun, with its modulated power, looks like a major winner, but the price might be prohibitive to bring in the huge numbers that AM can bring special weapons.

Special weapons aside, AM look like one of the armies that can really generate a lot of CPs, either through a brigade detachment or multiple battalion detachment (if that's a thing that's possible). Even with just the standard ways to spend CPs, if you can amass 9 CPs, you can drive an old-style powerblob pretty hard. You could feasibly counterattack every turn that matters, blunting the ability of high offense, low defense attackers to shank a lot of guardsmen. Alternatively, liberal use of CPs to automatically pass Battle Shock could keep a front line squad fighting after sustaining horrendous casualties. This is all assuming combined squads are possible, so who knows.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/28 17:40:19


Post by: KommissarKiln


 Humble Guardsman wrote:
If the Trygon example is anything to go by, they'll need to roll a 9 on the 2D6 charge roll. A risky endevour, but I don't doubt assault heavy armies won't at least try it. They would probably be saving their Command Point re-rolls for that exact moment. What I'm not sure about is 'deep-striking' transports. Is disembarking from a vehicle over 9" from the enemy an easy way to cut that distance down before the charge?

It's clear that bubble-wrapping attractive targets with inexpensive infantry squads is going to be more vital than ever.


Fortunately, I do not think disembarking from a deep strike vehicle is a legal exploit. It seems that arriving from reserves/deep striking is in and of itself a movement in the movement phase. Hence regular deep strikers only get to attempt to charge after they arrive-- no moving or advancing between showing up and attempting to charge. And since disembarking must occur before movement, deep striking transports will likely end up a very poor tactic. Except for Orks with their 'Ere We Go reroll, I wouldn't be *too* concerned about this strategy (a little caution will go a long way, of course).


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/29 12:47:19


Post by: Ivan


 deltaKshatriya wrote:
So, we're starting to learn more and more about the 8th Edition of Warhammer. One of the thing's I was really looking forward to is how the Guard was going to fair in this new update. And now that they've added some updates:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/09/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-astra-militarum/

And the source for general updates of course:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/warhammer-40000/

So I'm personally seeing a much more competitive Guard in this edition. It looks like vehicles in general are getting a boost with the new rules. As some of you here know, I've really loved running the Guard tank armies, even though they were woefully underpowered and very easily blown up by melta and grav guns. The new Leman Russ rules are basically stating that they have 12 wounds and toughness 8, along with a 3+ Armor save. That I think should make a huge difference in armored warfare in general, since one of the biggest issues with tanks (in particular LR) was that they don't have any sort of save, like jinking.

Orders are now automatic, and seem to be better, plus tons of lasgun shots from Guard armies that all have a chance to hurt will probably bring just about any kind of unit to its knees eventually.

I'm curious to hear what others thing though.


I'm also super excited about how tough normal Leman Russes are! And since everything in 8th edition is going to be point-costed appropriately, their toughness plus the awesomeness of the 8th edition Battle Cannon ensures that it'll be the best 30 point model in the game!


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/29 13:10:53


Post by: vipoid


Do you guys think infantry-IG might become viable again?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/29 14:04:28


Post by: Trickstick


 vipoid wrote:
Do you guys think infantry-IG might become viable again?


Well they got a large boost from how the core rules work, though it really depends on the list itself and how it is organised. Things I have seen that make IG infantry more effective:

-Removal of blasts makes movement and force concentration so much easier.
-Defender chooses casualties. No more worrying about putting weapons/characters at the front of a unit. Also, no more losing inches of movement to deaths.
-Can use rapid fire and charge.
-Chargers goes first in combat.
-Can get saves against a lot more weapons that previously.
-Split fire, so no more worries about mixing weapon types.
-Can exit combat, so enemy can't stay safe from your firepower.
-Terrain doesn't seem to slow movement, so no more 50 men moving 1".

That's just off the top of my head. What waits to be seen is how Commissars work. If they have to sit out of units then they will be sniper fodder. I am hopeful for this edition, as I love running 2 types of Guard: Armoured Company and infantry wave.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/29 14:36:13


Post by: Kanluwen


 Trickstick wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
Do you guys think infantry-IG might become viable again?


Well they got a large boost from how the core rules work, though it really depends on the list itself and how it is organised. Things I have seen that make IG infantry more effective:

-Removal of blasts makes movement and force concentration so much easier.
-Defender chooses casualties. No more worrying about putting weapons/characters at the front of a unit. Also, no more losing inches of movement to deaths.
-Can use rapid fire and charge.
-Chargers goes first in combat.
-Can get saves against a lot more weapons that previously.
-Split fire, so no more worries about mixing weapon types.
-Can exit combat, so enemy can't stay safe from your firepower.
-Terrain doesn't seem to slow movement, so no more 50 men moving 1".

That's just off the top of my head. What waits to be seen is how Commissars work. If they have to sit out of units then they will be sniper fodder. I am hopeful for this edition, as I love running 2 types of Guard: Armoured Company and infantry wave.

They can't be in units. NOTHING that was a character can join a unit.

Anything less than a certain Wound value cannot be targeted by ballistic weapons unless they have "Sniper".


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/29 14:56:22


Post by: Trickstick


 Kanluwen wrote:

They can't be in units. NOTHING that was a character can join a unit.

Anything less than a certain Wound value cannot be targeted by ballistic weapons unless they have "Sniper".


Well IG Commissars and Priests have a history of weird rules when it comes to joining units, so it is not beyond the realm of possibilities. Either that, or they need a large boost in resilience, as a 1w model is just going to die to snipers. I think that snipers are going to be a lot more common now, as almost everyone can get a small unit of scout snipers, ratlings or something. I guess they could just turn normal Commissars into something similar to the old Lord Commissar, it probably fits the fluff better anyway.

Thinking about snipers, the 5 model command squads are going to be really vulnerable without an additional rule. Would be nice if they counted as characters for that sniper rule, so they don't just die turn 1 and you have no orders.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/29 14:59:40


Post by: Kanluwen


 Trickstick wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:

They can't be in units. NOTHING that was a character can join a unit.

Anything less than a certain Wound value cannot be targeted by ballistic weapons unless they have "Sniper".


Well IG Commissars and Priests have a history of weird rules when it comes to joining units, so it is not beyond the realm of possibilities. Either that, or they need a large boost in resilience, as a 1w model is just going to die to snipers. I think that snipers are going to be a lot more common now, as almost everyone can get a small unit of scout snipers, ratlings or something. I guess they could just turn normal Commissars into something similar to the old Lord Commissar, it probably fits the fluff better anyway.

Who said they're going to remain 1 Wound?

You have to understand that a big part of how they did things in Age of Sigmar is that anything that was a character before now has a minimum of 4-5 Wounds in exchange for not being able to hide in a unit..

Thinking about snipers, the 5 model command squads are going to be really vulnerable without an additional rule. Would be nice if they counted as characters for that sniper rule, so they don't just die turn 1 and you have no orders.

From what's been said, the officers are going to be individual models with a Wound boost and the 4 model Command Squads are going to give them some kind of additional protection when purchased.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/29 15:09:24


Post by: Trickstick


 Kanluwen wrote:
Who said they're going to remain 1 Wound?


Yeah that is what I meant by making them more like the Lord Commissar, boosting the wounds a bit. I actually like the idea of Commissars being vulnerable to snipers somewhat, as they would really be the #1 target of any sniper unit.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/29 22:32:11


Post by: labmouse42


Out of the leaks I've seen the Rhino is coming in 5 more points than the razorback.

Does anyone have any guesses as to why that might be the case?

I was thiking that's probably going to be the price point for the IG transports


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/29 22:47:18


Post by: Trickstick


 labmouse42 wrote:
Out of the leaks I've seen the Rhino is coming in 5 more points than the razorback.

Does anyone have any guesses as to why that might be the case?

I was thiking that's probably going to be the price point for the IG transports


It is the point cost without weapons. A naked 10 person transport is more expensive than a naked 6 person transport.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/30 02:09:11


Post by: gungo


You know what's going to be great about Astra militarism? So many units buff or improve or have special keywords that expand this army. Scions, inquisitors, ecclesiastical, sisters units like Celestine, gene stealer cults and likely renegade all inherently benefit and buff the guard. I am sure we will have one of the better armies with the amount of synergy that's being leaked.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/30 02:28:52


Post by: labmouse42


gungo wrote:
You know what's going to be great about Astra militarism? So many units buff or improve or have special keywords that expand this army. Scions, inquisitors, ecclesiastical, sisters units like Celestine, gene stealer cults and likely renegade all inherently benefit and buff the guard. I am sure we will have one of the better armies with the amount of synergy that's being leaked.
A commissar is not as tough or strong as a C:SM captain in power armor.
That's a good thing. I means that the buff-characters for AM will be cheaper and more common than other armies.

 Trickstick wrote:
It is the point cost without weapons. A naked 10 person transport is more expensive than a naked 6 person transport.
Good point.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/30 02:32:17


Post by: Trickstick


gungo wrote:
You know what's going to be great about Astra militarism? So many units buff or improve or have special keywords that expand this army. Scions, inquisitors, ecclesiastical, sisters units like Celestine, gene stealer cults and likely renegade all inherently benefit and buff the guard. I am sure we will have one of the better armies with the amount of synergy that's being leaked.


It does add a bit of variety to the mirror match. I really want to face off against traitors, heretics and xenos without it always being superhuman death gods or insane space horrors. A battle against standard humans with a bit of a twist will be fun.

I wonder if we will see many Gue'vesa armies.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/30 02:34:17


Post by: labmouse42


 Kanluwen wrote:
Who said they're going to remain 1 Wound?
+1 to this.
I don't think they will get 5 wounds, but I expect them to have ~3.
As I mentioned earlier, they are probably going to be cheaper than characters as well.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/30 08:16:38


Post by: Trickstick


Commissars: Gives his LD to each AM unit within 6". Those units also can't lose more than 1 model from a failed battleshock test.


Pretty powerful if you can keep the Commissar alive and assuming blobs are still around.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/30 12:12:59


Post by: labmouse42


 Trickstick wrote:
Commissars: Gives his LD to each AM unit within 6". Those units also can't lose more than 1 model from a failed battleshock test.


Pretty powerful if you can keep the Commissar alive and assuming blobs are still around.
Target their snipers first.

I also wonder if the 'chimera' as a command vehicle will let ICs use their aura's form inside -- or will they just be able to give orders?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/30 12:23:01


Post by: SonsofVulkan


 Trickstick wrote:
Commissars: Gives his LD to each AM unit within 6". Those units also can't lose more than 1 model from a failed battleshock test.


Pretty powerful if you can keep the Commissar alive and assuming blobs are still around.


Blobs better be around!


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/30 12:38:33


Post by: Trickstick


 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Blobs better be around!


Well I'm 99% certain they will be but who knows? We haven't seen such a shakeup of the rules since the 2nd-3rd edition change. Also, blobs only came about in the 5th edition codex. Platoon structure is so weird that it could always change.

You really do have to throw away everything you know, A fair few people in 8th edition discussion use previous edition knowledge, which could have gone the way of the Squat, the Datafax or the outflanking charge of doom.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/30 13:14:39


Post by: labmouse42


I was taking a look at the SoB Rhino leak and I noticed a few things.

It's T7 with 10 wounds and a 3+ save. Wow. That's one tough vehicle to crack. I expect the Chimera to be similar.
I don't see anything about 'fire points'. In the DE faction review it was said "Open Topped vehicles allow you to shoot out of them still, which is a massive benefit."
This is a strong indicator that the only thing that will be able to shoot out of Chimeras are the lasguns on the side, plus the internal weapons.

In the AM Faction focus, it was written "Your squads will no longer pop out of their Chimera, shoot one thing, and then die or run away immediately after the enemy returns fire. Nope, now, with the added “encouraging” presence of a nearby Commissar – which limits the losses of a bad Morale test – Astra Militarum are downright stalwart."
This is another indicator that AM squads will need to leave the chimera to be effective.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/30 13:35:34


Post by: Trickstick


So I am looking over my regimental motor pool and I think that I have some remodeling to do. In the past, I put a lot of faith in battle cannons and demolisher cannons with just a hull flamer. They were a great, cheap unit with a backup weapon. However, sponsons seem like a great idea now that all weapons can be fired. With split fire, the standard las/bolt combo may be making a comeback.

Chimeras I can see going dual flamer if advancing or dual bolter if standing. The -1 to hit when moving will hurt my current multilaser/flamer combo but dual flamers could be a great assault unit.

I always stuck my back line artillery with flamers too, as it gave them a useful weapon if something got close and snap firing a bolter was kinda pointless. Now? Extra bolter shots seem more useful.

Well, my vehicles have had so many remodels over the years that another one is pretty much routine now. Will be interesting to see what turns out to be good. Of course, point are key. I may even decide to cut back on all the options for a larger force,


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/30 13:52:48


Post by: Leth


Shoot, at T7 and 10 wounds it makes sense it is 70 points before weapons now...wowzers twin bolt gun is 2 points though....so you can buy two twin boltguns for 4 points thats not bad in the dakka department.

Also the new barrage rules basically being "ignores line of sight" no other modifiers will be good for guard


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/30 14:14:32


Post by: Trickstick


Plasma cannon sponsons seem far better than meltas now, so I expect them to be super expensive. Maybe just save them for the command tanks and use bolters on other things to keep the costs down. Have to be very careful about inflating the cost of units that are not that hard to kill.

Sat here looking at my Stormsword. With the changes to twin-link, it has 30 heavy bolter shots, 4 lascannons and the main gun of doom. Also, not having to worry about fire arcs gives it a massive boost! You currently can barely get the guns on target.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/30 14:20:26


Post by: labmouse42


I also saw a 'leak' earlier of SoB prices. The thing that hit me the most was the power sword for a SoB was 4 points -- the same as a marine.
This sucks for SoB, as the power sword is a lot less effective in their hands. In the case of normal sister squad, it's hitting on a 4+ and wounding MEQ on a 5+. A C:SM power sword hits on a 3+ and wounds on a 4+
AM sergeants with power swords will have the same odds of hitting. If IG are paying 4 points for power swords, it's less of a 'bang for your buck' than C:SM get. I hope that AM power weapons only cost 3 points each.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/30 14:26:47


Post by: vipoid


 labmouse42 wrote:
I also saw a 'leak' earlier of SoB prices. The thing that hit me the most was the power sword for a SoB was 4 points -- the same as a marine.
This sucks for SoB, as the power sword is a lot less effective in their hands. In the case of normal sister squad, it's hitting on a 4+ and wounding MEQ on a 5+. A C:SM power sword hits on a 3+ and wounds on a 4+
AM sergeants with power swords will have the same odds of hitting. If IG are paying 4 points for power swords, it's less of a 'bang for your buck' than C:SM get. I hope that AM power weapons only cost 3 points each.


This has been a problem since 6th. It used to be that, for example, sergeants got cheaper melee weapons than HQs. Otherwise, a 25pt Sergeant has to pay 60% of his cost for a power sword, whilst a 100pt Captain need only pay ~7% of his cost for the same - and he gets more value out of it with his improved WS, A and wounds.

Likewise, IG used to pay less for power weapons and fists than marines (10 and 15pts, respectively). Then that too changed, so that a guardsman sergeant has to pay 150% of his value for a power sword, in spite of getting less value from it than either the SM sergeant or the SM captain.

Seemingly, as with many things, GW haven't bothered to address the issue.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/30 14:32:03


Post by: labmouse42


 Leth wrote:
Shoot, at T7 and 10 wounds it makes sense it is 70 points before weapons now...wowzers twin bolt gun is 2 points though....so you can buy two twin boltguns for 4 points thats not bad in the dakka department.
It's a hell of a deal. That's basically 4 extra bolters on every Rhino. Sure, it's not a huge amount of firepower, but the upgrade cost is well worth it.

If the AM Vehicle Equipment List offers heavy subbers and storm bolters as options, then I expect they will also be auto-includes.
An extra storm bolter, even if fired as BS3, is a great guy on a chimera with dual Flamers.

A heavy stubber is great to place on a LRBT (assuming they can ignore the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons). It's also a good spot for dual HB chimeras.

As a side note, the way the math works, the -1 to hit for moving and shooting heavy weapons impacts AM a lot more than C:SM. Going from a 3+ to a 4+ to hit is not as bad as going for a 4+ to a 5+ to hit.
MEQ lose 33% damage output when they move and shoot. GEQ lose 50% firepower when they move and shoot.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/30 14:34:45


Post by: Leth


 labmouse42 wrote:
 Leth wrote:
Shoot, at T7 and 10 wounds it makes sense it is 70 points before weapons now...wowzers twin bolt gun is 2 points though....so you can buy two twin boltguns for 4 points thats not bad in the dakka department.
It's a hell of a deal. That's basically 4 extra bolters on every Rhino. Sure, it's not a huge amount of firepower, but the upgrade cost is well worth it.

If the AM Vehicle Equipment List offers heavy subbers and storm bolters as options, then I expect they will also be auto-includes.
An extra storm bolter, even if fired as BS3, is a great guy on a chimera with dual Flamers.

A heavy stubber is great to place on a LRBT (assuming they can ignore the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons). It's also a good spot for dual HB chimeras.

As a side note, the way the math works, the -1 to hit for moving and shooting heavy weapons impacts AM a lot more than C:SM. Going from a 3+ to a 4+ to hit is not as bad as going for a 4+ to a 5+ to hit.
MEQ lose 33% damage output when they move and shoot. GEQ lose 50% firepower when they move and shoot.


I think one thing is that at 4 points there is not much wiggle room to drop it down. Luckily the new wounding mechanics make it less punishing than it was before in that they can wound toughness 5 on a 5+ instead of the 6+ before. And they can always wound anything on a 6. So power swords for them got a lot cheaper and are still a worthwhile investment at 4 points.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/30 14:35:29


Post by: labmouse42


 vipoid wrote:
Seemingly, as with many things, GW haven't bothered to address the issue.
Yep. The issue is with 'copy and paste' for point costs across armies.
Take the HK missile. For 6 points on a rhino, I'd consider it. It's a nice upgrade for the point cost, especially given the number of vehicles/MCs I expect to see in this edition.
However, if that's also 6 points for guard, it's a kick in the nuts because thats less effective for the same cost. It should cost 4 points for guard because it's 1/3 less effective.
I'd like to think that GW would be smarter enough to realize that but honestly I don't have much hope. I expect there will be some things that are great for AM, and others that remain sub-par.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Leth wrote:
I think one thing is that at 4 points there is not much wiggle room to drop it down. Luckily the new wounding mechanics make it less punishing than it was before in that they can wound toughness 5 on a 5+ instead of the 6+ before. And they can always wound anything on a 6. So power swords for them got a lot cheaper and are still a worthwhile investment at 4 points.
If look at Celestian's they also hit on a 3+ in assault.
That might be incentive for players to put power swords in their elite units but not for the rank and file guard.

Edit :
I don't mean to come across as sounding like I'm complaining. I'm not. I'm looking to see what's the most effective bangs for the buck. If a weapon costs the same for AM as C:SM, and it's less effective -- it's probably not the best buy. Instead focus on the things that make AM really effective on the table.


Edit 2: From 4chan.
>taurox and taurox prime m14" w10 r6 3+
>chimera m12" w10 r7 3+
>veterans have same stats as normal infantry except bs 3+; can have 3 special weapons, a heavy weapon a heavy flamer; 6ppm without equip
>valkyrie m20"(min)-45"(max); w14 s7 t7 3+
>can go in stationary flight mode and reduce its movement to up to 20", but loses the other rules of fliers (-1 to be hit, can only be charged by flying stuff)
>grav-chute deployment still in: if performed when moving more than 20" 1/6 models die
>hellstroke missiles: heavy1 s8 ap-2 d6
>ogryns w3 s5 t5; ws3+; +1 attack on charge; weapon is 12" ass3 s5 ap- d1
>vanquisher is heavy 1 72" s8 ap-3 d6, roll 2 dice for damage and discard the lower
>basilisk 240" heavyD6 s9 ap-3 d3, roll 2 dice for determining the number of shots and discard the lower; can shoot on units it can't see
>confirmed characters: yarrick, pask, creed, kell, harker, straken, nork


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/30 15:39:04


Post by: SeraphimXIX


What am I missing with the vanquisher? It can't be as bad as it looks can it?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/30 16:05:36


Post by: Trickstick


 SeraphimXIX wrote:
What am I missing with the vanquisher? It can't be as bad as it looks can it?


To be fair, it's not that great in 7th. I pretty much only use them with the bs4, co-axial stubber and beasthunter shells from FW.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/30 16:47:39


Post by: labmouse42


Looking at this army list. it shows a few things.
- Transports are limited to 1 for every other units. This army has 2 HQ and 1 flyer, then 3 units each with a transport. This means that making a fully armored company is easily possible.
- All transports are expensive. Even raiders are 95 points before upgrades. In the case of warriors, the transport is more expensive than the unit inside. I expect AM will have the same.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/30 18:42:00


Post by: Trickstick


Saw the stats of the shotgun in the sisters leak. Same as now but with +1str within half range. Maybe my squads of shotgun/melta vets won't be useless, as they can run and shoot with assault weapons. This makes shotguns better at hurting t6-7, so could be a decent MC/Vehicle hunting squad. HAve to get within 6" though.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/30 18:55:53


Post by: gungo


 SeraphimXIX wrote:
What am I missing with the vanquisher? It can't be as bad as it looks can it?

To be fair str8 ap -3 and d6 (2 rolls choose highest) isn't bad but at 4+ to hit or even 3+ to hit it's not good enough for the cost, it needs the coaxial rule on hull mounted weapons to be reliable enough.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/30 18:59:49


Post by: Leth


Depends on the cost to be honest. If it is cheap enough to bring two of them, or they have solid access to re-rolls it can put the hurt on.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/30 21:55:15


Post by: Biophysical


 Leth wrote:
Depends on the cost to be honest. If it is cheap enough to bring two of them, or they have solid access to re-rolls it can put the hurt on.


I sort of agree, but S8 hurts it pretty bad. Even if you reliably hit, with only one shot and S8, you're wounding the targets you care about only half the time. I'd almost rather have the Battle Cannon and get multiple shots, even if they do fewer wounds.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/30 22:14:48


Post by: SeraphimXIX


You need three shots from the vanquisher profile we know of to average a single unsaved wound on a T7 vehicle. They'll have to be pretty cheap to justify taking them in enough numbers for them to be useful.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 12:33:45


Post by: labmouse42


Guard leaks here

Rules on LRBT
Spoiler:
Stats
WS 6+, S7, T8, W12, L7, 3+ save
7-12 wounds: 4+ BS, 10" move
4-6 wounds: 5+ BS, 7" move
1-3 woundsL 6+BS, 4" move

Turrent Weapons
Battle Cannon : Heavy d6, STR 8 AP -2 D3 Damage
Eradicator Nova Cannon : Heavy D6, STR 6, AP -2, D3 Damage - Ignores Cover
Exterminator Autocannon : Heavy 4, STR 7, AP -1, D2
Vanquisher Battle Cannon : Heavy 1, STR 8, AP -3, D6 Damage : Roll 2 dice for damage, discard the lower result.

Wargear Options
- Replace HB with HF, or LC
- Take Sponons of HB, HF, MM, or PC
- Take Heavy Stubber or storm bolter
- Take HK missile

Abilities
- Vehicle Squadron : The first time this unit is set up, all models in this unit must be placed within 6" of each other. From that point onwards, each operates independently and is treated as a separate unit for all rules purposes.

- Grinding Advance : This model does not suffer the penalty to turret weapon hit rolls for shooting a heavy weapon on a turn it has moved.

- Exploders : When reduced to 0 wounds, roll a D6. On a 6 it explodes - each unit with in 6" suffers D3 mortal wounds.

- Smoke Launchers : ONce per game instead of shooting weapons, the model can use smoke launchers. Until your next shooting phase all ranged attacks are -1 to hit.

- Take 6 mortal wounds instead of being destroyed from plasma cannon. Also lose gun


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 12:52:47


Post by: Trickstick


 labmouse42 wrote:
Guard leak on LRBT

Rules

Spoiler:
Stats
WS 6+, S7, T8, W12, L7, 3+ save
7-12 wounds: 4+ BS, 10" move
4-6 wounds: 5+ BS, 7" move
1-3 woundsL 6+BS, 4" move

Turrent Weapons
Battle Cannon : Heavy d6, STR 8 AP -2 D3 Damage
Eradicator Nova Cannon : Heavy D6, STR 6, AP -2, D3 Damage - Ignores Cover
Exterminator Autocannon : Heavy 4, STR 7, AP -1, D2
Vanquisher Battle Cannon : Heavy 1, STR 8, AP -3, D6 Damage : Roll 2 dice for damage, discard the lower result.

Wargear Options
- Replace HB with HF, or LC
- Take Sponons of HB, HF, MM, or PC
- Take Heavy Stubber or storm bolter
- Take HK missile

Abilities
- Vehicle Squadron : The first time this unit is set up, all models in this unit must be placed within 6" of each other. From that point onwards, each operates independently and is treated as a separate unit for all rules purposes.

- Grinding Advance : This model does not suffer the penalty to turret weapon hit rolls for shooting a heavy weapon on a turn it has moved.

- Exploders : When reduced to 0 wounds, roll a D6. On a 6 it explodes - each unit with in 6" suffers D3 mortal wounds.

- Smoke Launchers : ONce per game instead of shooting weapons, the model can use smoke launchers. Until your next shooting phase all ranged attacks are -1 to hit.


Missing the bottom, which is "Emergency Plasma Vents". Take 6 mortal wounds instead of being destroyed from plasma cannon. Also lose gun.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 13:43:49


Post by: Biophysical


Looking at the spoiled AM pages on the main news&rumors thread, looks like we lost all elaborate organization options. The downside is no blobs at the moment, unless there are missing pages. The upside is that Guard will have a ridiculously easy time filling out detachment charts. Platoon Commanders are HQs, SWS are elites, HWS are heavy support. Vets are elites, unfortunately, and it looks like they lost some special rules options (hard to tell, pics are pretty low res).

A Brigade detachment of 6 infantry squads, 3 SWS, 3 HWS, 3 Scout Sentinels, and whatever mix of HQ you want looks to be pretty cheap, and leave a ton of points for customization as you desire. Orders being automatic is good, but without blobs they'll lose some bite. Cheap platoon commanders to keep dishing out orders is probably going to mitigate this, though.

Depending on points, I could see running 3 SWS with a platoon Commander as the Elites detachment (can't remember the name). You get +1 CP, special weapons everywhere, and it doesn't cost you much. The same could apply to vets or HWS.

Not too impressed with Leman Russes so far, but I haven't seen the points.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 13:47:20


Post by: Trickstick


Platoon commanders are elites, Company commanders are HQ.

Our elite slots look very full. Psykers, enginseers, commissars, all of the advisors and more.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 13:52:01


Post by: Biophysical


My bad, missed that. It's cut off in the picture I have. I guess I made an assumption.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 13:55:48


Post by: labmouse42


Flyers are completely changed.
Vendettas are gone.
Valkyrie chassies are 3 points more than a LRBT with more wounds and 1 less toughness. They are also transports.
Hellstrike missiles might be more than 1 shot weapons. They seem to be Heavy 1.
A vendettas with a LC, 2 multiple rocket pods, and 2 HB is 193pts. A chimera is 111 points, just to put things in comparison.

Infantry squads are cheap.
10 guard with a flamer and a heavy bolter are 55 points.

Melta-Hounds are Nasty
For 128 points, you get d3+1 MM shots. T7 with 11 wounds makes it tough to kill.

LRBT
A LRBT with a battle cannon and 3 HBs is only 178 points.
Plasma cannon sponons are only 14 more points. Given how good PC's are, that's a pretty good deal.

Spamming Special Weapons
5 militarum Tempestus Scions can bring 2 PG in their squad for 59 points. These are troops.
A special weapons squad can bring 3 PGs for 45 points.
10 Vets can do the same 81. Vets can bring 3 special weapons, 1 heavy flamer, and 1 heavy weapon in a single unit. All hitting on a 3+


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 14:08:59


Post by: Trickstick


 labmouse42 wrote:
Vendettas are gone.


Probably a forge world unit now. In fact, I guess that they will be 250. 130 base for Valk, 6xlascannon (going off similar twin las in space marines that are simply double normal las).


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 14:13:51


Post by: Ragnar Blackmane


So, the indices in their entirety have been leaked, the rules for the Guard in their entirety (all data sheets, weapon rules and point costs can be found here:: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/6edukc/full_rules_leak/

So glancing over it, here are some of the BIG things I found:
- The standard Guardsman is only FOUR points now [Conscripts are three points but unless you go for special synergies (haven't gone through all the character rules), but no big reason to pick them].
Also the sergeant can get special melee and ranged weapons, e.g. a 5pt. plasma pistol. Combined squads are gone, but buffs work in a bubble now, e.g. a commissar can BLAM for any unit in 6" around him (as mentioned above, which results in a squad only ever losing one model to a morale test max.

- Tempestus Scions/Stormtroopers are NINE points now (ten points with thehot-shot lasgun/pistol they come with, but they don't have to pay that point when they pick a special weapon instead). So only 4 points more than naked veterans with lasguns for Hotshot weapons (18" S3 AP -2 D1 for rifles, though 6" for pistols [that sucks]), 4+ saves and an on the spot accurate "everywhere 9" away from the enemy" teleoport. while grenade launchers (5pts) and plasma guns (SEVEN points) are much, much cheaper now, while melta is much more expensive as it should be (12 points).
Standard Scion squads are TROOP choices while the command squads are elite. Strong choice as far as I see it both as suicide melta delivery with grav chutes (21 pts per melta Scion) as well as full-size frontline units with plasma. Bad choices seem to be flamers (7pts and wastes the BS) and hot shot volley guns (8/9 pts (source image blurred) and 24" Heavy 4, otherwise same as a Hotshot-Rifle). Also getting a vox now forces the radioman to replace his rifle with a hotshot-pistol.

Can't stress the value per point of plasma scions now though, one stormtrooper with a plasma gun is only 16 points (guardsman would be 11 and a Veteran 13 with all the attached drawbacks).

- Veterans, as mentioned above, finally got their price brought in line and balanced with both guardsmen and stormtroopers, so 2 points more than grunts and 4 points less than stormies.
Also, grab your chairs and hold your butts for this: They are now an elite choice while Tempestus Scions are troops. Also no upgrade for a 4+ save available as far as I could see.

Orders: Vox-system reworked, an officer needs to be within 3" of a unit with a vox caster (so e.g. you could skip the one in the command squad if the officer keeps close to a regular guardsmen squad with one) to use it and a vox in target units effectively increases the range of orders to 18" from the officer. Without vox the range for orders is 6" (this includes tank commanders/Pask which hand out a different set of orders to other Russes [Russ orders are: -reroll all 1s to hit, or forgoe shooting and move your full movement distance in the shooting phase, as well as one order that allows the use of smoke and shooting in the same turn). Orders are only for the shooting phase (including one that allows infantry units in combat to pre-emptively fight in close combat in the shooting phase rather than in-melee, which prevents enemy models from striking back). Orders are potent as far as I see it, especially FRFSRF which effectively gives FOUR shots in rapid fire range to both regular and hotshot lasguns. There is also one to re-roll 1s of to-hit rolls as well as one for re-rolling 1s for to-wound (whoever would ever use that one). Obviously non-tank commander orders are infantry only.

Also no more boosted order range from Chimeras.

Equipment:
- Plasma pistols are only FIVE points now, so a good choice on any character with 3+ to hit. Bolters, bolt pistols, hotshot lasguns/pistols are 1 pt and part of the regular ranged weapon list, looks to me as if all sergeants can equip them if I didn't miss something.
- Heavy Flamer is an outrageous 17 points and comletely overprized, while heavy bolters are 8, multi-lasers 10 and auto-cannons 15 points. If you have flamers on any of your tanks you better start tearing them off now, now that vehicles have to pay points for them as well. Hellhounds with inferno cannons are 93 and with chem-cannons are 88 points if you want flame tanks.

- Common Heavy Weapons: Heavy Bolter 8pts, Autocannon 15pts, Lascannon 20pts, Missile Launcher 20pts. (premium cost for ammo type flexibility I guess). Multilasers are 10pts, while the one-use hunter-killer missiles are only 6pts.
- Start collecting those plasma gun bits.

Important note: You have to pay for ALL the wargear on units, even those they come with to begin with, unless the specific weapon is 0 points (all the grenades, lasguns and interestingly enough many primary vehicle weapons such as manticore rockets, hydra autocannons or even the deathstrike missile). Overall pretty confusing which vehicles have to pay extra for their standard equipment and which don't. But considering a Hydra is 115pts. and a Manticore 125 while a Leman Russ without weapons is only 132pts (or a weaponless Hellhound:73 pts), I guess they are included in the rather hefty unit price in those cases.

That's just from me glancing over the admittingly rather blurry part of the Imperium 2 Index for things that interest me for my planned Cadian army, I didn't dig deep, especially not for vehicles and characters.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 14:36:50


Post by: labmouse42


I disagree about HF being useless on chimeras.

A HF may cost 17 points, 9 more points than a HB. If you are moving the chimera, the HF will be autohitting where the HB will be hitting on a 5+. The HF will be hitting 3.5 times for each single time the HB hits. Even if stationary, the HB will only hit 1.5 times vs the HF 3.5 times.

The HF never degrades in effectiveness as the vehicle takes damage. It's always auto-hitting, where other weapons start to hit on a 5+ and 6+.

The Chimera can move 12" when undamaged. That's an effective threat range of 20" -- which is pretty good.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 14:43:21


Post by: Ragnar Blackmane


 labmouse42 wrote:
I disagree about HF being useless on chimeras.

A HF may cost 17 points, 9 more points than a HB. If you are moving the chimera, the HF will be autohitting where the HB will be hitting on a 5+. The HF will be hitting 3.5 times for each single time the HB hits. Even if stationary, the HB will only hit 1.5 times vs the HF 3.5 times.

The HF never degrades in effectiveness as the vehicle takes damage. It's always auto-hitting, where other weapons start to hit on a 5+ and 6+.

You have to get within 8" to use it first though. That's likely several rounds of firing that Heavy Bolter with 5+ to hit. 17pts is a big price to pay especially if you might never get to use it if the vehicle bites the dust (the weapon remains fully effective even if the tank gets slowly crippled, but it also makes it much harder to get into the 8" range).

Want to add that the Chimera can also efficiently overwatch with that flamer though.

Overall seems to me that taking a heavy flamer instead of a HB on Russes or chimera chassis support vehicles such as basillisks or Manticores is not a choice that should be even considered anymore, while it's a debatable choice on chimeras and hellhounds. Also completely wasted on infantry (particularly looking at those 3 Special weapons + 1 HF veterans) as the price is just too prohibitive.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 14:50:40


Post by: labmouse42


 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
You have to get within 8" to use it first though. That's likely several rounds of firing that Heavy Bolter with 5+ to hit. 17pts is a big price to pay especially if you might never get to use it if the vehicle bites the dust (the weapon remains fully effective even if the tank gets slowly crippled, but it also makes it much harder to get into the 8" range).
A 20" threat range means you will likely be there by turn 2. The chimera will also be transporting troops and dropping them off at an objective, so it's not a waste.

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
Overall seems to me that taking a heavy flamer instead of a HB on Russes or chimera chassis support vehicles such as basillisks or Manticores is not a choice that should be even considered anymore, while it's a debatable choice on chimeras and hellhounds. Also completely wasted on infantry (particularly looking at those 3 Special weapons + 1 HF veterans) as the price is just too prohibitive.
I agree on the Russ or support chassis. The Russ should be taking the PC every day of the week.
Just to toss this out there. Overwatch has changed 'wall of flame' a little bit. Flamers now still auto-hit in overwatch, so they do d6 hits. That's twice as effective as before.

Taurox Thoughts
- The Taurox prime no longer seems limited to who can take it. It's tempting to take it for the gating gun and hot shot volley guns.
It's not as durable as the Chimera, but for only 50 points for the base chassis it's tempting to take for it's firepower.

Vehicle Upgrades
- At 2 points a pop, storm bolters on every chassis you can take are a great buy. Time to glue them on your chimeras, taurox, and LRBT. There are no better damage increases for the point cost.
- The base chassis cost are now things to consider. It seems that throwing as many weapons on per chassis is the way to go.

Orders
- Unless you are wounding on a 3+, the order "Take Aim!" increases your damage output. It also combo's amazingly well with PGs to lower damage.
- Orders seem great force multipliers. Vox casters can significantly increase your cost per entry, but greatly increase the effectiveness of the range of one commander.

Commisars
These are insanely good. Stick one of them close to 4 seperate squads and the damage of morale is greatly mitigated.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 15:20:15


Post by: Biophysical


7 point plasma guns seems like a typo. The mass quantity you can bring in an army that a) doesn't care about losing guys and b.) has plentiful access to extolling 1s seems absurdly good. If you like dudes with guns, now is your tume.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 15:25:18


Post by: Trickstick


Why would anyone buy a command squad now? Medpacks seem bad, banners are useless with Commissars around and a vox network is expensive for what it does. So you get a veteran squad with no ablative wounds at all. Just get some Veterans or Scions if you want bs3+.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 15:25:59


Post by: Leth


Seems about right but luckily it is easily tuned going forward haha. Really like the new system, will have to get a solid idea of what points look like but I really like the direction it is going. Will be interesting to see I do find it interesting how marine apothecaries are the only ones that can bring back dead models. Still with all of the multi wound characters out there healing wounds is gonna be a big thing for keeping them alive against snipers


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 15:35:46


Post by: labmouse42


Even though normal guard are 4 ppm, I think vets at 6 ppm are a better bang for the buck.
Hitting on a 3+ vs a 4+ means they do 33% more damage with their lasguns. As you can pack 3 PGs per squad, they produce a lot of damage.

Scions are 10ppm, and their PGs are 16 ppm with the infantry. While they get a 4+ save, I'm just not seeing them as worthwhile.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 15:44:05


Post by: Trickstick


So, have been looking into writing a battalion list. All the slots seem super competitive, except for fast attack. Now that fliers are their own slot, a battalion needs to pick three units from the following:

Rough riders: Better than they used to be but if you want to charge from outflanking you need to roll 9 on 2 dice. I guess if the enemy is behind a barricade you only need an 8 (barricades give units a 2" combat zone because of terrain size).

Sentinels: I'm tempted with armoured sentinels with lascannons, although they are 60pts each. Scout sentinels get a scout move and are 5pts cheaper, but only have a 4+ save.

Hellhounds: Maybe melta hounds are good but that -1 to hit is going to hurt them. Flame hounds are probably a good choice but chem hounds also look good because of the matched 8" chem/flamer range. 105 for a chem/flame hound, which you advance and smoke if you cant get within 8".

So, what fast attack appeals to you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 labmouse42 wrote:
Scions are 10ppm, and their PGs are 16 ppm with the infantry. While they get a 4+ save, I'm just not seeing them as worthwhile.


It's the deep strike within rapid fire plasma range, with orders as well. Expensive I guess but worth it if it works. Also, no scatter or reserve rolls make planning so much easier.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 15:57:38


Post by: labmouse42


 Trickstick wrote:
It's the deep strike within rapid fire plasma range, with orders as well. Expensive I guess but worth it if it works. Also, no scatter or reserve rolls make planning so much easier.
Truth.
5 of these guys in dropping with 2 PGs is pretty intense.

Honestly, I'm seeing armies where These are the troops choices and then taking gun tanks for the rest of the army.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 15:58:31


Post by: Biophysical


Well, Scions are troops, so that's a point in their favor. But yeah, accurate deep-striking plasma is righteous.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 15:59:58


Post by: ross-128


Well, I'm sure going to miss 50-man blobs. Though I suppose conscripts can be taken without any tax now...

However, the loss of platoon blobs also brings with it an opportunity: it looks like the Guard can fill out a Brigade detachment more easily than any other faction, because we have dirt-cheap options in every single FoC slot. And we'll probably want to, so we can get all those tasty HQ slots for our Commissars.

We may have to turn our list-building mentality upside-down for the new detachment system: instead of thinking of models as competing for slots, think of them as padding slots to help you fill out those detachments.

Bring one brigade detachment with six infantry squads, three special weapon squads with something cheap like grenade launchers (or three Ratling squads perhaps?), three Heavy Weapon Teams with something cheap like mortars or heavy bolters, some multilaser sentinels or maybe hellhounds to fill out the fast attacks, and all the HQ picks you please. Then bring a second brigade detachment with even more infantry, maybe some artillery or tanks, etc, points permitting. Enjoy having 18 command points.

Or maybe take four to five Battalion detachments with 12-15 infantry squads and 8-10HQs to fill out the minimum for all of those (easily done with PCS and Commissars), that way you don't have to worry about anything else being mandatory. You now have 12-15 command points and all the optional slots you could ask for.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 16:03:08


Post by: Trickstick


 labmouse42 wrote:
 Trickstick wrote:
It's the deep strike within rapid fire plasma range, with orders as well. Expensive I guess but worth it if it works. Also, no scatter or reserve rolls make planning so much easier.
Truth.
5 of these guys in dropping with 2 PGs is pretty intense.

Honestly, I'm seeing armies where These are the troops choices and then taking gun tanks for the rest of the army.


I was thinking 10s with 4x plasma and a pistol. Makes the orders affect more bodies. I guess the problem is dealing with 9" exclusion zones. Is the meta going to allow for good drop locations?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 16:04:48


Post by: labmouse42


One question is : How good are transports if you are deep striking in Scions?
Take a chimera. With dual HB the tank comes in at ~90 points. While the platform is durable, how good is that? At this point I'm just not seeing it as 'awesome'. The dual HF version is 110 points.
A Taurox prime is also fairly expensive once you add on a battle cannon and 2 autocannons. It clocks in at 120 with a storm bolter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Trickstick wrote:
I was thinking 10s with 4x plasma and a pistol. Makes the orders affect more bodies. I guess the problem is dealing with 9" exclusion zones. Is the meta going to allow for good drop locations?
Can you deep strike in a character to give orders? Adding in vox casters and getting within 18" gets tricky.
Honestly the scions will just be wiped the following turn. T3 with a 4+ save is not that tough. I would rather drop 2 squads instead of 1.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 16:06:18


Post by: ross-128


That probably just depends on which faction your facing, some factions inherently have better board control than others.

Though there's probably a lot of overlap between "factions with poor board control" and "factions with models you want to delete with a plasma strike".


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 16:10:52


Post by: Trickstick


Sentinels hit on a 5+ when they move...

Seriously, for my hard hitting vehicle play style that 1 rule is really messing me up. It is making all vehicles want to sit still to shoot, or exclusively use flame weapons. Even the stubber is heavy. I guess stormbolters really are a much better advancing weapon now.

Hmm, flame sentinels though... Vehicles can overwatch now right?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 16:14:04


Post by: labmouse42


One thing to consider -- Look at the way scoring objectives now works.
"A player controls an objective marker if they have more models within 3" of the center of it than their opponent does"

This means a single tank sitting on an objective can easily be overridden by infantry.
I've not seen any advantage to using 'troops' over unlocking extra CPs.
This gives strong arguments to fielding 10 man squads with just lasguns to sit on objectives. 40 points is dirt cheap. Throw them onto objectives like candy.
If you play lots of ITC games, which is something to consider. Bodies on objectives are really important.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Trickstick wrote:
Hmm, flame sentinels though... Vehicles can overwatch now right?
That's what I've seen

ADLs
Check out the quad-gun. Heavy 8. Add 1 to hits for weapons that can fly. -1 for other targets. Sticking a squad of vets behind there, or a lord commissar is pretty tight.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 16:24:06


Post by: ross-128


It's too bad that Move! Move! Move! forces you to Advance when you use it (though even with that restriction, getting a whole extra movement phase is AWESOME), because if it didn't I would grav-chute a demo-charge team, use MMM to get them within 6", and yell "Bombs away!"

Ah well, the lulz that could have been.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 16:24:37


Post by: Biophysical


Harker, right? I mean, 6" plasma safe bubble, no orders needed, with a nasty gun in his own right. I've got probably 10 or 12 catachan plasma gunners modeled up right now that are digging their way out of my mini case when they heard about this guy.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 16:26:34


Post by: Trickstick


 ross-128 wrote:
It's too bad that Move! Move! Move! forces you to Advance when you use it (though even with that restriction, getting a whole extra movement phase is AWESOME), because if it didn't I would grav-chute a demo-charge team, use MMM to get them within 6", and yell "Bombs away!"

Ah well, the lulz that could have been.


One thing I noticed is that demo bombs are grenades, so you can only use 1 a turn. Maybe some flamers?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 16:30:13


Post by: ross-128


Oh hey, you're right. Harker would be great for plasma drops, though he might not work with Tempestus because it looks like those can't take a Regiment keyword, so they can't be considered Catachans. I blame 6th/7th for that one, I miss being able to have Catachan Stormtroopers.

Also, since a Valkyrie does have 12 seats, you could fit a 10-man squad (veterans I guess, since Harker won't work on Tempestus?), Harker, and a platoon commander (because he's just one model now) all in one Valkyrie.

Hmm, the change to transports also means that two SWTs can share a single transport. Interesting, might be a cheaper if somewhat less killy suicide squad option.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 16:31:26


Post by: Biophysical


 ross-128 wrote:
It's too bad that Move! Move! Move! forces you to Advance when you use it (though even with that restriction, getting a whole extra movement phase is AWESOME), because if it didn't I would grav-chute a demo-charge team, use MMM to get them within 6", and yell "Bombs away!"

Ah well, the lulz that could have been.


I think it's the "you have 50 conscripts in your face RIGHT NOW order".

I also love Fix Bayonets! Enemy charges in, burn CP to strike first. Burn CP to pass Morale, fight in Shooting phase with Fix Bayonets, strike first in combat phase again. Without blobs, I'm not sure if we really have a unit that it will be good on (Ogryn?), but it's an interesting option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ross-128 wrote:
Oh hey, you're right. Harker would be great for plasma drops, though he might not work with Tempestus because it looks like those can't take a Regiment keyword, so they can't be considered Catachans. I blame 6th/7th for that one, I miss being able to have Catachan Stormtroopers.

Also, since a Valkyrie does have 12 seats, you could fit a 10-man squad (veterans I guess, since Harker won't work on Tempestus?), Harker, and a platoon commander (because he's just one model now) all in one Valkyrie.

Hmm, the change to transports also means that two SWTs can share a single transport. Interesting, might be a cheaper if somewhat less killy suicide squad option.


I wasn't even thinking drops, I was thinking 4 trip plasma squads within 6" of him on foot, not getting hot all that often. A couple vets in Chimeras with him in an extra seat probably works, too. I think he also works on Tanks, as they have the regiment keyword, so he could babysit a trio of plasma toting Russes so they can overcharge and not kill themselves.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 16:38:30


Post by: ross-128


Biophysical wrote:
 ross-128 wrote:
It's too bad that Move! Move! Move! forces you to Advance when you use it (though even with that restriction, getting a whole extra movement phase is AWESOME), because if it didn't I would grav-chute a demo-charge team, use MMM to get them within 6", and yell "Bombs away!"

Ah well, the lulz that could have been.


I think it's the "you have 50 conscripts in your face RIGHT NOW order".

I also love Fix Bayonets! Enemy charges in, burn CP to strike first. Burn CP to pass Morale, fight in Shooting phase with Fix Bayonets, strike first in combat phase again. Without blobs, I'm not sure if we really have a unit that it will be good on (Ogryn?), but it's an interesting option.


You can't shoot or charge after advancing (well, there's Forward for the Emperor, but I think we still can't stack orders), so I wouldn't use MMM offensively, it's more of either an objective-grabber or a Brave Sir Robin maneuver.

Getting your guys to book it 14"-24" in one turn is one sweet objective grabber though.

Oh wait. Wait a second. I just though of something. Most deep-strikes you can't move after striking because they specifically occur at the end of the movement phase. But the Valkyrie's grav-chute insertion is different.

The Valkyrie's grav-chute insertion happens during the Valkyrie's move. That means your movement phase is still going, and there's nothing that says the dropped unit can't move! You totally can drop a squad out of a Valkyrie, do a standard move, and then attack! That's awesome!


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 16:40:50


Post by: Mr.Moe


How do you feel about adding Heavy Weapons to Vet Squads. I can see using 10 Vets with Vox+ 3x Plasma +Autocannon for 101 pts even though not a troop choice. I can't really make my mind up on how to field regular infantry squads though...

Also I don't see the point on using Valkyries as transports at all, sadly they can't drop Sentinels anymore. But as a gunship they seem not to bad in my eyes.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 16:46:15


Post by: ross-128


I actually think Valkyries might be the best transport in the game now, if a bit pricey.

Every other transport has to disembark its passengers before it moves. The Valkyrie can disembark them after moving (technically "while" moving, but you know, plastic models), and it can drop them off at any point on the board that it covered during that movement. And, if I've read correctly, those models can still move and shoot normally after using a grav-chute.

Which means dropping two flamethrower SWTs (12 seats, and units can share transports now) with six flamethrowers total, walking them toward the enemy, and having a barbecue is totally legit. All while the Valkyrie is doing a drive-by.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 16:48:15


Post by: Trickstick


*Reads Valkyrie and Transport rules.*

By Jove it checks out! Do any other vehicles have a grav cute style rule, or are we alone in our awesome move-attacks? I can see valkyries being popular transports if you can move attack.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 17:02:12


Post by: Biophysical


If that Valkryrie interpretation stands up to FAQing, that's super cool.

I'm liking infantry squads as cheap objective grabbers and screeners. Flamer, Power Maul, Plasma Pistol is 52 points. Call it 60 for a Heavy Bolter. Maybe just 40 for the lasguns. Either one is okay, I think.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 17:02:31


Post by: labmouse42


 ross-128 wrote:
I actually think Valkyries might be the best transport in the game now, if a bit pricey.

Every other transport has to disembark its passengers before it moves. The Valkyrie can disembark them after moving (technically "while" moving, but you know, plastic models), and it can drop them off at any point on the board that it covered during that movement. And, if I've read correctly, those models can still move and shoot normally after using a grav-chute.

Which means dropping two flamethrower SWTs (12 seats, and units can share transports now) with six flamethrowers total, walking them toward the enemy, and having a barbecue is totally legit. All while the Valkyrie is doing a drive-by.
Or dropping a bunch of ogryns to 'get close and personal'

 Mr.Moe wrote:
How do you feel about adding Heavy Weapons to Vet Squads. I can see using 10 Vets with Vox+ 3x Plasma +Autocannon for 101 pts even though not a troop choice. I can't really make my mind up on how to field regular infantry squads though....
Point for point, vets are pretty decent on the amount of damage they can deal out. You need to give them a chimera to ride in though.

LRBT Spam
This group of 5 LRBTs costs 1000 points on the nose.
Pask w/ Executioner PC, 2 PC, HB, SB
Tank Commander w/ Executioner PC, 2 PC, HB, SB
LR Demolisher w/ Executioner PC, 2 PC, HB, SB
LR Demolisher w/ Executioner PC, 2 PC, HB, SB
LR Demolisher w/ Executioner PC, 2 PC, HB, SB

Pask gives "Gunners Kill on Sight!" to 2 LRBT every turn. The other commander gives the order to the final LRBT.
Every round they, on average HIT with this..
19.375 PC shots : STR 7, -3 AP 1 Damage. 13.125 of those can be safely overcharged to target vehicles or other large creatures
7.75 HB hits : STR 5, -1 AP 1 damage
5.166 SB hits : STR 4, AP -, 1 damage. Double if targets are within 12".

That's an insane amount of damage. It's picking up entire enemy units each turn.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 17:07:17


Post by: Trickstick


Ogryns take up 3 slots each, so not great. However, shotgun vets are perfect! Shotguns with str4 within 6", 3 flamers and a heavy flamer. That leaves a spot in the transport for a priest (+1 attack aura) and a Commissar. Nasty little surprise really.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 17:12:11


Post by: ross-128


 Trickstick wrote:
Ogryns take up 3 slots each, so not great. However, shotgun vets are perfect! Shotguns with str4 within 6", 3 flamers and a heavy flamer. That leaves a spot in the transport for a priest (+1 attack aura) and a Commissar. Nasty little surprise really.


Hmm, now that you mention it, shotguns are assault weapons too. So shotgun vets actually can shoot after using MMM. Talk about a nasty surprise there, with MMM shotgun vets can have a threat range of 36" with an average of 31" (due to the average of two Advance rolls). They can just go Speedy Gonzalez across the board, shotgunning and burninating as they go.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 17:14:54


Post by: Trickstick


 ross-128 wrote:
 Trickstick wrote:
Ogryns take up 3 slots each, so not great. However, shotgun vets are perfect! Shotguns with str4 within 6", 3 flamers and a heavy flamer. That leaves a spot in the transport for a priest (+1 attack aura) and a Commissar. Nasty little surprise really.


Hmm, now that you mention it, shotguns are assault weapons too. So shotgun vets actually can shoot after using MMM. Talk about a nasty surprise there, with MMM shotgun vets can have a threat range of 36" with an average of 31" (due to the average of two Advance rolls). They can just go Speedy Gonzalez across the board, shotgunning and burninating as they go.


Stick Harker near them, with his assault heavy bolter, and you have a beastly Catachan force.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 17:21:40


Post by: Biophysical


MMM is in place of shooting, so I don't think you can still fire.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 17:26:50


Post by: ross-128


 Trickstick wrote:
 ross-128 wrote:
 Trickstick wrote:
Ogryns take up 3 slots each, so not great. However, shotgun vets are perfect! Shotguns with str4 within 6", 3 flamers and a heavy flamer. That leaves a spot in the transport for a priest (+1 attack aura) and a Commissar. Nasty little surprise really.


Hmm, now that you mention it, shotguns are assault weapons too. So shotgun vets actually can shoot after using MMM. Talk about a nasty surprise there, with MMM shotgun vets can have a threat range of 36" with an average of 31" (due to the average of two Advance rolls). They can just go Speedy Gonzalez across the board, shotgunning and burninating as they go.


Stick Harker near them, with his assault heavy bolter, and you have a beastly Catachan force.


See, now I'm just imagining them double-timing through a jungle, singing a running cadence while they shoot stuff.

"I said MP, MP, don't arrest me,
Arrest Sgt. Harker behind the tree!
He stole the whisky, I stole the wine,
And all I do is double time!"


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 17:31:26


Post by: labmouse42


 Trickstick wrote:
Ogryns take up 3 slots each, so not great. However, shotgun vets are perfect! Shotguns with str4 within 6", 3 flamers and a heavy flamer. That leaves a spot in the transport for a priest (+1 attack aura) and a Commissar. Nasty little surprise really.
4 Bullgryns might not be a 'death star', but they are pretty darn good.

Have you taken a close look at the Bullgryn Maul? It's +2 STR, -1 AP, 2 damage.
The unit, on the turn it charges, basically has 17 autocannon attacks that hit on a 3+.
The unit has T5, 3 wounds and a 2+ save.

That would kill ~3.7 terminators or ~5 Primus marines.
It would do ~7.5 wounds to a T7 vehicle.

Those 4 models clock in at 168 points.

Edit :
10 vets with 3 PGs and 1 HF would be killing 3.5 MEQ, 1.2 TEQ, or 1.76 primus marines.
Frankie and Reece said Bullgryns are the bomb. The math is checking out. 4 Bullgryns in a valk can be a very nasty shock for an opponent.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 17:36:42


Post by: ross-128


Biophysical wrote:
MMM is in place of shooting, so I don't think you can still fire.


Hmm, reading it again that does seem to be the case. Guess they already thought of that. Guess the only benefit to that setup then is they basically have Aim! and Forward for the Emperor! passively, so you can use your orders on something else.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised, if they had let something that silly get through they probably would have FAQ'd it later.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 17:40:13


Post by: Ragnar Blackmane


 labmouse42 wrote:
One question is : How good are transports if you are deep striking in Scions?
Take a chimera. With dual HB the tank comes in at ~90 points. While the platform is durable, how good is that? At this point I'm just not seeing it as 'awesome'. The dual HF version is 110 points.
A Taurox prime is also fairly expensive once you add on a battle cannon and 2 autocannons. It clocks in at 120 with a storm bolter.

At that point it seems smarter to use the Scions without transport. Guard is a shooting army and with the necessity of keeping units together for buff bubbles in the new edition it will be even more important to keep your army together, making you vulnerable to assault units that can get multiple units to you.
Ork hordes are not that much of a problem with massed lasguns alone, but take e.g. horde marines, especially with former AP3 pie plates being much less potent...

Then a 10 men Scion squad anchoring your gunline with FOUR plasma guns, a sergeant with a 5pt plasma pistol, a vox (which I would leave out for deep-striking units to be honest, you are likely to be outside of the order range if you don't deepstrike a scion command nearby and it costs you 15 points for a scion who has to replace his hellgun with a hotshot-pistol with a pathetic 6" range) and 4 ablative rifle guys that can pewpew 16 hotshot rounds at 9" (and 8 at 18") with an insta-passed order costs you 133 points and they will easily murder or cripple an entire marine squad each turn (yes, even at 24" with 4 plasma shots) becomes pretty attractive . And with the new cover system the better your armour save the more you profit from cover, getting a 3+ save rather than a 4+ save is easily worth the extra 3 points over vets, especially if you need troops for capturing objectives.

In short for 133 points you get absolute MEQ and TEQ murder with a 3+ save in terrain. And that's just the 4-9 plasma shots before taking any hotshots and orders into account. And you get a scatter-free 0 point deployment anytime (even turn 1) everywhere on the table to grab objectives (extra hilarity if it's in cover and the opponent has all that plasma waiting for him) or if you play against another shooty army, so why even consider a transport?
That's also what puts Scions above Vets for me. Sure, you can save a few points by taking Vets, but with that transport they'll need you'll end up paying more for worse performance and less flexibility. Especially in all-comers lists.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 18:00:57


Post by: gungo


The death strike is cut 3d6 hits which hit on a 4+ and do mortal wounds WOW. then on a 4+ it does d3 mortal wounds to any unit within 6in.

I think its time I buy and magnetize a baneblade. Those vehicles are amazing.

Now the big issue is this vehicle doesn't shoot immediately when everything s clumped together in turn 1 or 2 and likely fire off in turn 5-6 or may never fire and the game ends =(.

Its not really competitive but it sure is a fun item.

If anyone enjoys playing apoc the shadwosword is a must have to quickly kill off those titananic models.

There is SOOOO much you can do with the guard and astra militarum in general its going to take a while to digest all this info.
Cant wait to see the forgeworld book either.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 18:28:25


Post by: ross-128


Huh, I didn't notice before that pretty much all our "Support HQ" units got moved to the Elite slot. Commissars, Master of Ordinance, Astropath, Officer of the Fleet, Techpriest, Priest, and Command Squad, all Elites now. The Platoon Commander also went from Troops to Elite. Filling HQ slots might be harder than I thought, and our Elite slots might be a bit crowded.

Looks like our actual HQ options consist of the Company Commander, Lord Commissar/Yarrick, the named Company Commanders, Tank Commander/Pask, Tempestor Prime, and the Primaris Psyker.

Of those, the Company Commander is the cheapest way to fill an HQ slot at 30 points, the Tempestor Prime is second at 40. The Lord Commissar and Primaris Psyker are both 50 (due to the latter coming with a 12-point Force Stave).

On the bright side, that means if you're going for a Brigade detachment, the only requirement that will be difficult to fill will be Fast Attack. I suppose it also means you should mostly take a Company Commander over a Platoon Commander: they're the best way to fill up those HQ slots anyway, while a Platoon Commander would be taking Elite slots away from your Commissars.

It also means if you go for Battalion spam you're going to have plenty of CCs by the time you're done filling those minimum HQ slots, because that's just about all you've got to put in there. Though Battalion spam will give plenty of Elite slots to work with (and plenty of slots in general).


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 18:52:28


Post by: Trickstick


 ross-128 wrote:
...Ordinance...


It's ordnance, vile heretic scum! (-:

Going to make a bit of a mock list, although I'm thinking Tempestor and 20 scions may have to fit. Other things I really want to try:

10 ratlings,
Manticores and a MoO,
Conscripts backed up with priest and commissar.
Valkyrie with Shotgun vets.

So many options to try!


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 18:55:55


Post by: CountCyrus


Is it just me or do Leman Russ' seem disturbingly weak for what used to be an AV14 vehicle?

1 T and 2 W tougher than a rhino?

Just noticed a valkyrie has 14! And hard to hit! What the hell!

Also, chimeras and rhinos are identical? Where'd my AV12 go? Same place as my fire points I guess.

Why do artillery, some of which were open topped, have an extra wound?

Lastly, rest in peace Exterminator, twin link will be missed.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 19:05:17


Post by: gungo


I'm just confused why the demolisher base cost more than the Leman russ base when its the EXACT SAME. The increased cost is already baked into the turret weapon.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 19:08:49


Post by: labmouse42


This is my first stab at a 2k list. It uses a supreme command and vanguard detachment.

The amount of firepower it has is pretty darn good. The big weakness is that it's lacking in bodies.
I might turn the 4 scions command squads into just scions and drop a prime. Right now it's set to drop 1 prime next to each other squad to give orders. This lets them maximize their PGs with very little risk to themselves.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
gungo wrote:
I'm just confused why the demolisher base cost more than the Leman russ base when its the EXACT SAME. The increased cost is already baked into the turret weapon.
Oh my screen both are showing as 132 base.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 19:13:50


Post by: gungo


 labmouse42 wrote:
This is my first stab at a 2k list. It uses a supreme command and vanguard detachment.

The amount of firepower it has is pretty darn good. The big weakness is that it's lacking in bodies.
I might turn the 4 scions command squads into just scions and drop a prime. Right now it's set to drop 1 prime next to each other squad to give orders. This lets them maximize their PGs with very little risk to themselves.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
gungo wrote:
I'm just confused why the demolisher base cost more than the Leman russ base when its the EXACT SAME. The increased cost is already baked into the turret weapon.
Oh my screen both are showing as 132 base.

Sorry was looking at powerlevel I forgot the weapon cost isn't baked into power level.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 20:16:39


Post by: ross-128


Hmm... here's something to consider: Mortar teams are 9 points per model (keeping in mind that a HWT counts as a single 2-wound model) for one mortar each. A Wyvern is 93 points per model (85 base plus an 8 point heavy bolter) for four mortars and a heavy bolter... but for those 93 points it gets to re-roll wounds on its mortars, T6, and a 3+ armor save.

So, which would be better, 9 mortars with 18 T3/5+ wounds for 81 points, or 4 re-rolling mortars and a HB with 11 T6/3+ wounds for 93 points? Seems like a tough call to me.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 20:35:53


Post by: Trickstick


 ross-128 wrote:
So, which would be better, 9 mortars...


And 9 lasguns!


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 20:36:10


Post by: Ir0njack


I know I'm not the only person wondering how our beloved baneblades were treated by 8th so BEHOLD the points of a stock (chassis+basic weapons) baneblade vs other superheavies

Baneblade 499pt
knight paladin 458pt
Wraithknight 502pt


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 20:44:50


Post by: Biophysical


I think it honestly depends on which models you have. Both seem good.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 20:45:16


Post by: Trickstick


 Ir0njack wrote:
I know I'm not the only person wondering how our beloved baneblades were treated by 8th so BEHOLD the points of a stock (chassis+basic weapons) baneblade vs other superheavies

Baneblade 499pt
knight paladin 458pt
Wraithknight 502pt


I'm rather surprised what they did to the Stormsword. It used to be a huge 10" template. Now it is d6 shots, albeit with 2 and pick highest. Just seems really odd.

I'm rather intrigued by the idea of 4 flamer sponsons, although moving is probably a bad idea with the -1 to hit on your main gun.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 20:45:21


Post by: ross-128


 Trickstick wrote:
 ross-128 wrote:
So, which would be better, 9 mortars...


And 9 lasguns!


You know, that's a good point, it doesn't say anything about replacing the lasguns. The option to form a HWT out of two Infantry Squad models doesn't say anything about replacing lasguns either (though the special weapon one does, so that's one lasgun gone).

I wonder if they can fire their heavy weapon and both lasguns in the same turn. Though that's mostly relevant for Infantry Squads with an integrated HWT getting a FRFSRF order.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 20:46:26


Post by: Trickstick


 ross-128 wrote:
 Trickstick wrote:
 ross-128 wrote:
So, which would be better, 9 mortars...


And 9 lasguns!


You know, that's a good point, it doesn't say anything about replacing the lasguns. The option to form a HWT out of two Infantry Squad models doesn't say anything about replacing lasguns either (though the special weapon one does, so that's one lasgun gone).

I wonder if they can fire their heavy weapon and both lasguns in the same turn. Though that's mostly relevant for Infantry Squads with an integrated HWT getting a FRFSRF order.


They sure can fire both! The only restrictions are that you have to choose all pistols or all other weapons.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 20:48:43


Post by: ross-128


Well that's really nice. A fully kitted infantry squad can fire 8 lasguns instead of 6 (in addition to their heavy/special weapons) now. Now if only I could give the Sergeant a lasgun too. I guess a bolter will do, but a bolter can't FRFSRF.

Still, an extra two lasguns per squad really adds up!


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 21:34:07


Post by: labmouse42


This is another list I threw together at 1850. It has 164 models total. Including the base 3 CP every army starts with, it has 14 CP to use during the game (!!)
The idea with this list is to maximize the number of 4 point models and just spam the board with tons of them.
The army can throw out 7 orders a turn. Each troop has a vox caster, so the order range is pretty decent.
There are 27 PGs, 12 HBs, and 18 LCs and 7 plasma pistols.

HQ
Creed
Company Commander w/Plasma Pistol
Company Commander w/Plasma Pistol
Lord Commissar w/Plasma Pistol
Lord Commissar w/Plasma Pistol

Troops
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster

Elites
Special Weapon Squad w/3 PGs
Special Weapon Squad w/3 PGs
Special Weapon Squad w/3 PGs
Special Weapon Squad w/3 PGs
Special Weapon Squad w/3 PGs
Commissar w/Plasma Pistol
Commissar w/Plasma Pistol
Commissar w/Plasma Pistol

Heavy Support
Heavy Weapons Squad w/3 LasCannons
Heavy Weapons Squad w/3 LasCannons
Heavy Weapons Squad w/3 LasCannons
Heavy Weapons Squad w/3 LasCannons
Heavy Weapons Squad w/3 LasCannons

Fast Attack
Scout Sentential w/LasCannon
Scout Sentential w/LasCannon
Scout Sentential w/LasCannon


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 21:38:43


Post by: Desubot


Glad to see those sentinels


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/05/31 21:39:27


Post by: Biophysical


Company Commander 30
Harker 50
Veterans + 3 Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistol 86
Veterans + 3 Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistol 86
Veterans + 3 Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistol 86

338 points

Harker buffs all the squads, the Officer buffs 2 with Orders. Everybody overcharges all the time. At 12", your're looking at 21 plasma gun shots. Overcharged, not counting orders, that's probably 16 hits thanks to Harker. So that murders a couple terminator squads. It also wounds 8 times against T8 heavy armor, after a couple saves, your're looking at 12 wounds thanks to 2 damage on the overcharging plasmas. That's a Russ Equivalent. Not quite a Land Raider.

Now, this group of miscreants isn't all that tough, and their damage output is less than half at 24", but the low 300s seems really solid for the damage they can put out.

More extreme:

Harker 50
Special Weapon Squad 24 + 3 Plasma Guns 21 = 45
6 if these plasma squads is 270
320 total

24" = 9-10 hits (overcharged)
12" = 19-20 hits (overcharged)

Is this as good as I think it is?




Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 00:24:36


Post by: Trickstick


I'm having a hard time deciding on troops. I manage ok with all the other slots, I know what I want from them. Troops, however...

I'm thinking some medium sized conscript squads with Commissar backup, then some infantry squads to give a fire base with officers. It is just difficult. I know they are cheap (60 for a simple ac/gl squad) but I am just so used 20+ man platoon squads with voxes that it is hard to break the habit.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 00:49:07


Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


Don't think this has been mentioned yet, but command squads and special weapons squads have the same points cost and both take up an elites slot, but you get BS 4 and an extra special weapon in the command squad (at the expense of two guys with lasguns). Doesn't this mean that command squads are strictly better than special weapons squads as suicide units (which was there primary purpose anyways)?

BONUS: You can fit 3 command squads in a Valkyrie.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 00:56:58


Post by: labmouse42


 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
Don't think this has been mentioned yet, but command squads and special weapons squads have the same points cost and both take up an elites slot, but you get BS 4 and an extra special weapon in the command squad (at the expense of two guys with lasguns). Doesn't this mean that command squads are strictly better than special weapons squads as suicide units (which was there primary purpose anyways)?

BONUS: You can fit 3 command squads in a Valkyrie.
That's not a bad idea. Good for suicide squads. 4 meltas dropping in with a vox caster next to a land raider is pretty sweet.

Edit :
I've been looking and I don't see anything that says you are not locked in combat with a vehicle. It appears that you can throw your chimera at an incoming squad to keep it tied up in combat until they either fall back or destroy it.
That's a nice looking tactical squad there. It would be a shame if something were to RAM it...


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 07:07:21


Post by: Therion


 labmouse42 wrote:
This is another list I threw together at 1850. It has 164 models total. Including the base 3 CP every army starts with, it has 14 CP to use during the game (!!)
The idea with this list is to maximize the number of 4 point models and just spam the board with tons of them.
The army can throw out 7 orders a turn. Each troop has a vox caster, so the order range is pretty decent.
There are 27 PGs, 12 HBs, and 18 LCs and 7 plasma pistols.

HQ
Creed
Company Commander w/Plasma Pistol
Company Commander w/Plasma Pistol
Lord Commissar w/Plasma Pistol
Lord Commissar w/Plasma Pistol

Troops
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster

Elites
Special Weapon Squad w/3 PGs
Special Weapon Squad w/3 PGs
Special Weapon Squad w/3 PGs
Special Weapon Squad w/3 PGs
Special Weapon Squad w/3 PGs
Commissar w/Plasma Pistol
Commissar w/Plasma Pistol
Commissar w/Plasma Pistol

Heavy Support
Heavy Weapons Squad w/3 LasCannons
Heavy Weapons Squad w/3 LasCannons
Heavy Weapons Squad w/3 LasCannons
Heavy Weapons Squad w/3 LasCannons
Heavy Weapons Squad w/3 LasCannons

Fast Attack
Scout Sentential w/LasCannon
Scout Sentential w/LasCannon
Scout Sentential w/LasCannon


A list along those lines will be very strong, no matter the faction. A lot of armies will stock up on multiwound guns and won't have even nearly enough anti-infantry weaponry to take out that many guys. Everyone who can do hordes to support points efficient shooting will be doing well, I'm guessing. If you don't have even one model with more than one wound, you're nerfing your opponents weaponry before the game even begins. All the excess damage will be lost automatically.

You can throw a Culexus Assassin or two in there if psykers become a thing in the meta.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 09:45:13


Post by: deltaKshatriya


CountCyrus wrote:
Is it just me or do Leman Russ' seem disturbingly weak for what used to be an AV14 vehicle?

1 T and 2 W tougher than a rhino?

Just noticed a valkyrie has 14! And hard to hit! What the hell!

Also, chimeras and rhinos are identical? Where'd my AV12 go? Same place as my fire points I guess.

Why do artillery, some of which were open topped, have an extra wound?

Lastly, rest in peace Exterminator, twin link will be missed.


TBH Leman Russ tanks were super weak in the current edition too. If guys came up close to you with melee/melta bombs/etc those tanks were decimated. I believe that tanks are now much more survivable than before.

Does anyone know how formations are still supposed to be legal? They did say that there are no formations but the armies would still be legal.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 09:46:29


Post by: Blacksails


 deltaKshatriya wrote:


Does anyone know how formations are still supposed to be legal? They did say that there are no formations but the armies would still be legal.


No formations. You have to fit your formation based army into the new detachments, which are flexible enough to work for your old formations.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 10:26:08


Post by: Mr.Moe


Btw do I read that correctly that I can disembark my troops from a Valkirie safely without it having to use hover jets when I fly the minimum distance of 20"? Valk movement has to be 20"-45" and the grav chute insertion states "if the unit moves MORE than 20"". Or is that cheesecake for the FAQ?

Also the Valk can only hit on 5+ when moving? Or did I miss a special rule? I can't see my Valk ever using Lascannons if that's the case. I'll probably go for max shots with 2x heavy bolter; 2x multi rockets + multi laser.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 10:54:52


Post by: Trickstick


 Mr.Moe wrote:
Also the Valk can only hit on 5+ when moving? Or did I miss a special rule? I can't see my Valk ever using Lascannons if that's the case. I'll probably go for max shots with 2x heavy bolter; 2x multi rockets + multi laser.


Yeah, -1 to hit. Firing from planes is hard. )-:


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 12:20:49


Post by: Paintalist


I have to build 6 heavy weapon teams. I am glad that I waited until the rules were leaked. What do you suggest? 3 Autocannons and 3 Lascannons?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 12:34:24


Post by: labmouse42


 Mr.Moe wrote:
Also the Valk can only hit on 5+ when moving? Or did I miss a special rule? I can't see my Valk ever using Lascannons if that's the case. I'll probably go for max shots with 2x heavy bolter; 2x multi rockets + multi laser.
The multi-laser is pretty crappy as a weapon now. It's 10 more points to upgrade to the LC, which actually has some bite when it hits.
You are correct, the valk hits on a 5+ unless it enters hover mode and stands still.

 Paintalist wrote:
I have to build 6 heavy weapon teams. I am glad that I waited until the rules were leaked. What do you suggest? 3 Autocannons and 3 Lascannons?
Why not both? Seriously, mix and match them. I would start with 2 LC and 1 AC. I expect as the edition starts, lots of people will take vehicles because having a model with 10-24 wounds just sounds sexy.
Last night I was looking at a daemon army for this Friday and the first thing I grabbed were 3 soul grinders, because who does not love a 14 wound model with a 3+ save and 5++ and FNP. At the start I expect there to be lots of that thinking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Therion wrote:
A list along those lines will be very strong, no matter the faction. A lot of armies will stock up on multiwound guns and won't have even nearly enough anti-infantry weaponry to take out that many guys. Everyone who can do hordes to support points efficient shooting will be doing well, I'm guessing. If you don't have even one model with more than one wound, you're nerfing your opponents weaponry before the game even begins. All the excess damage will be lost automatically.

You can throw a Culexus Assassin or two in there if psykers become a thing in the meta.
That's good advice on the assassins. It will take some playtesting, and I'll need to make some movement trays.
I worry about horde assault armies. I think that a green tide or 80 slannesh daemonettes would tear right through it.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 12:46:31


Post by: Therion


 labmouse42 wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Therion wrote:
A list along those lines will be very strong, no matter the faction. A lot of armies will stock up on multiwound guns and won't have even nearly enough anti-infantry weaponry to take out that many guys. Everyone who can do hordes to support points efficient shooting will be doing well, I'm guessing. If you don't have even one model with more than one wound, you're nerfing your opponents weaponry before the game even begins. All the excess damage will be lost automatically.

You can throw a Culexus Assassin or two in there if psykers become a thing in the meta.
That's good advice on the assassins. It will take some playtesting, and I'll need to make some movement trays.
I worry about horde assault armies. I think that a green tide or 80 slannesh daemonettes would tear right through it.


I very much doubt Daemon hordes will be a thing, due to the cost and effort in building such an army, and the comparable rarity of such dedicated Daemon players. Footslogga Orks might make a big return though. They can really flood the table. Tyranids might do the same with Stealers and Gaunts of all kinds. All the other armies will just have to try to keep up. 6 Razorbacks with twin assault cannons is probably a decent starting point for Marines.

I'm wondering if 'elite' armies consisting of a lot of vehicles or monsters, or armies that have Titans/Knights have any chance at all in this edition. The only large model that I like a lot is Magnus, due to the fact he's 'only' 415 points and charges and destroys one unit on turn one already. But even him would be almost useless against your IG infantry list.




Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 13:25:46


Post by: ross-128


That kind of meta expectation is also why I'm wondering if missile launchers might be worth taking instead of lascannons, especially with the change to toughness meaning they have extremely similar performance against a wide variety of targets (though there is the d3 vs d6 damage to consider).

If high-wound models are relatively rare overall and have a poor point/wound ratio, and running into a horde that you don't have enough dakka to clear is a bigger concern, it might be useful to have my anti-tank weapon capable of toggling into a fairly decent anti-infantry mode.

Alternatively, especially since heavy weapons teams apparently keep their lasguns now, I could just assume that I have enough lasguns (and mortars, and grenade launchers) to handle all my anti-infantry needs, and therefore run with lascannons because I don't actually need any more anti-infantry.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 13:29:34


Post by: SonsofVulkan


Wtf pretty much everything gets -1BS for firing a heavy weapon if the model moves except the turret weapon of a LRBT.

Even a baneblade gets -1BS dammit


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 13:39:49


Post by: ross-128


Yeah, I was really disappointed in the Baneblade getting hit by the -1 rule considering that Tau superheavies and Knights get an exception. All superheavy walkers do actually, which is kind of funny, you would think it'd be harder to aim while bouncing up and down on legs, than it would be while smoothly rolling on tracks with good suspension and a gyro-stabilized turret...

Edit: A Baneblade is surprisingly good in melee though. It gets 9 S9 AP-2 D3 attacks, is WS5+ instead of the 6+ most IG vehicles get, and it can fire up to eight flamers while in melee. And it can fire all its other weapons at other targets, so it has no reason to even want to leave. And while it's locked in melee, it's sitting still...

I think I know how you're supposed to use a Baneblade now. To troll melee armies, just park it in the center of their blob and start smashing.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 14:29:28


Post by: Trickstick


 ross-128 wrote:
Edit: A Baneblade is surprisingly good in melee though. It gets 9 S9 AP-2 D3 attacks, is WS5+ instead of the 6+ most IG vehicles get, and it can fire up to eight flamers while in melee. And it can fire all its other weapons at other targets, so it has no reason to even want to leave. And while it's locked in melee, it's sitting still...


Also, vehicles can overwatch now. Charging a unit with 8 heavy flamers could be a bit painful. I would probably still go with bolters though, generally a lot more useful and cheaper.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 14:38:53


Post by: Ragnar Blackmane


 Paintalist wrote:
I have to build 6 heavy weapon teams. I am glad that I waited until the rules were leaked. What do you suggest? 3 Autocannons and 3 Lascannons?

Get some spare 60mm bases and use some left over guardsmen (if you use heavy weapons in your infantry squads you will have two per squad left over anyways) to build three or six mortar squads. They are extremely cheap and efficient and put Wyverns to shame.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 14:40:41


Post by: ross-128


Yeah, I'm not sure why they made the heavy flamer 17 points. There's really not enough difference between it and the regular flamer to justify such a huge price difference, there's no reason for infantry squads (well, veterans/stormtroopers really) to ever take the heavy flamer when the regular flamer has similar enough performance and is only 7 points.

Honestly I would have priced the heavy flamer closer to 10 points, considering how it compares to the regular flamer and the heavy bolter.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 14:42:26


Post by: labmouse42


 ross-128 wrote:
Yeah, I'm not sure why they made the heavy flamer 17 points. There's really not enough difference between it and the regular flamer to justify such a huge price difference, there's no reason for infantry squads to ever take the heavy flamer when the regular flamer has similar enough performance and is only 7 points.

Honestly I would have priced the heavy flamer closer to 10 points, considering how it compares to the regular flamer and the heavy bolter.
There are vehicles that you can put the HF on that you cannot put a flamer on -- like a Chimera.

I do agree though. A cost of 12 points for the HF would have been more palatable.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 14:50:26


Post by: Trickstick


 labmouse42 wrote:
I do agree though. A cost of 12 points for the HF would have been more palatable.


I really like the idea of fireball demolishers or punishers (3xhf, stormbolter), the 24" range really goes well with flamers. They are pretty expensive though. 205 for a punisher or 225 for the demolisher. Hell, I can get 2 banewolves with flamers and stormbolters for 214...


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 15:00:55


Post by: Leth


Heavy Flamer is significant in that it wounds marines and t4 on 3s instead of 4s and it has a -1 ap. Strength is the biggest differentiator of damage output for most armies with the new wound tables.

Look at things like terminators: It goes from a 1/6 failed to 1/3, effectively doubling its damage output against those units while also having an easier time wounding.

Heavy flamers are more for dealing with elite infantry compared to the flamer which is better against hordes. As such it makes sense that it is more expensive.

One thing I really like is that supplemental weapons like storm bolters are really really cheap now. As such it is easy to get a lot more fire power on our relatively expensive vehicles.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 15:18:13


Post by: Ragnar Blackmane


The hilarious thing is that the Hellhound Chem-Cannon seems to only cost 13 points (I think, might be 15, my leak is rather blurry and I'm not 100% sure), while being much, MUCH better than a Heavy Flamer. S5 vs autowound on 2+ and -3 AP instead of -1 AP, same range. For four points LESS. And no one cares about only wounding vehicles as well (ESPECIALLY if you still retain the -3AP against them). I think 1-2 Hellhounds with Chem cannons should be more than enough to cover any barbeque needs, especially if you slap on a regular heavy flamer as hull-mount. Ba dum-tsch, Chem cannon + heavy flamer combo that murders even an entire MEQ squad for 103 points on a vehicle with 12" movement and as a result an effective 20" threat range. Also 11 wounds instead of 10 compared to a chimera.

The regular Hellhound will still be better against Tyranids and Orks, you pay 7 points more but you'll have another 8" of range on your main gun, murder their hordes as efficiently as a chem-gun and it's also still good against monsters and shooting vehicles is a valid choice as well thanks to the D6 S6 -1AP autohits with Damage 2.

With that in mind, if you want those extra 9 command points you'll need 3 fast attack choices anyway, so no real need to spend extra points on heavy flamers if you are going to take 1-2 Hellhounds anyway. You would be mad not to with how good they are Unless you can convert Rough Riders (conversions from historic models are rather cheap... but will be banned in GW stores) or have too much money to spend on FW squads of them, the only other choice is sentinels anyway.

When the first general's handbook comes out in a year they better cut the point cost for heavy flamers dramatically, it should be 10-12 points max, particularly for infantry. And buff the Exterminator-autocannon, that thing is an overprized joke now.

 Leth wrote:

Look at things like terminators: It goes from a 1/6 failed to 1/3, effectively doubling its damage output against those units while also having an easier time wounding.

Heavy flamers are more for dealing with elite infantry compared to the flamer which is better against hordes. As such it makes sense that it is more expensive.

Except that Plasma cannons are better at that, will get far more shots off thanks to their range... and are two points cheaper than a heavy flamer.
Also when two heavy bolters still cost one point less than a single heavy flamer, that pushes the odds in their favor as well as auxiliary weapon.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 15:36:28


Post by: ross-128


 Leth wrote:
Heavy Flamer is significant in that it wounds marines and t4 on 3s instead of 4s and it has a -1 ap. Strength is the biggest differentiator of damage output for most armies with the new wound tables.

Look at things like terminators: It goes from a 1/6 failed to 1/3, effectively doubling its damage output against those units while also having an easier time wounding.

Heavy flamers are more for dealing with elite infantry compared to the flamer which is better against hordes. As such it makes sense that it is more expensive.

One thing I really like is that supplemental weapons like storm bolters are really really cheap now. As such it is easy to get a lot more fire power on our relatively expensive vehicles.


Oh sure, they should certainly cost more than flamers. No argument about that. It's just that 17 points is a little bit too much more.

I'd put them around 10 points on the low end or 14 points (ie exactly two flamers) on the high end. The often-suggested 12 points is a pretty good compromise between the two.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 15:37:26


Post by: Leth


 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
The hilarious thing is that the Hellhound Chem-Cannon seems to only cost 13 points (I think, might be 15, my leak is rather blurry and I'm not 100% sure), while being much, MUCH better than a Heavy Flamer. S5 vs autowound on 2+ and -3 AP instead of -1 AP, same range. For four points LESS. And no one cares about only wounding vehicles as well (ESPECIALLY if you still retain the -3AP against them). I think 1-2 Hellhounds with Chem cannons should be more than enough to cover any barbeque needs, especially if you slap on a regular heavy flamer as hull-mount. Ba dum-tsch, Chem cannon + heavy flamer combo that murders even an entire MEQ squad for 103 points on a vehicle with 12" movement and as a result an effective 20" threat range. Also 11 wounds instead of 10 compared to a chimera.

The regular Hellhound will still be better against Tyranids and Orks, you pay 7 points more but you'll have another 8" of range on your main gun, murder their hordes as efficiently as a chem-gun and it's also still good against monsters and shooting vehicles is a valid choice as well thanks to the D6 S6 -1AP autohits with Damage 2.

With that in mind, if you want those extra 9 command points you'll need 3 fast attack choices anyway, so no real need to spend extra points on heavy flamers if you are going to take 1-2 Hellhounds anyway. You would be mad not to with how good they are Unless you can convert Rough Riders (conversions from historic models are rather cheap... but will be banned in GW stores) or have too much money to spend on FW squads of them, the only other choice is sentinels anyway.

When the first general's handbook comes out in a year they better cut the point cost for heavy flamers dramatically, it should be 10-12 points max, particularly for infantry. And buff the Exterminator-autocannon, that thing is an overprized joke now.

 Leth wrote:

Look at things like terminators: It goes from a 1/6 failed to 1/3, effectively doubling its damage output against those units while also having an easier time wounding.

Heavy flamers are more for dealing with elite infantry compared to the flamer which is better against hordes. As such it makes sense that it is more expensive.

Except that Plasma cannons are better at that, will get far more shots off thanks to their range... and are two points cheaper than a heavy flamer.
Also when two heavy bolters still cost one point less than a single heavy flamer, that pushes the odds in their favor as well as auxiliary weapon.


You are paying a premium for the guaranteed hits, including on overwatch, as well as the ability to fire it after advancing with no penalties. Plasma cannons still need to roll to hit, flamers do not. Once again I am not saying that the pricing is 100% accurate, I am just saying that it makes sense. Also you have to remember that the plasma cannon was priced with the types of models that can use it in mind. Many more units can get a heavy flamer than a plasma cannon. We cant just look at one options pricing as a X or Y without factoring in the limitations of what it can be mounted on. A vindicators main gun is zero points, well thats not fair. O wait it can only take that right now and it is the only model that can take it? Well then


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 15:38:31


Post by: Trickstick


 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
The hilarious thing is that the Hellhound Chem-Cannon seems to only cost 13 points (I think, might be 15, my leak is rather blurry and I'm not 100% sure)


They are 15. I'm rather liking the idea of banewolves, as they can pop smoke turn 1 if they can' get the weapons on target. In 7th, the main advantage of the hellhound over the banewolf was not so much the range but the special template placement. Now, that isn't a problem. Also, being within 8" isn't as bad at all. No side armour to worry about and if they charge you then you can hose them down with more chems!

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
Unless you can convert Rough Riders (conversions from historic models are rather cheap... but will be banned in GW stores) or have too much money to spend on FW squads of them, the only other choice is sentinels anyway.


I don't think that rough riders are a good unit, and I say that as someone with cold one riding guardsmen who really wants to use them. They may be a good counter charge unit, if you can keep them alive. However the outflanking move relies on their ability to make a 9" charge roll, something that is far too unreliable to base a unit around. If they has some kind of "roll 3 and discard lowest" rule, to represent cavalry, then I think I would use them.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 15:41:20


Post by: Paintalist


What is the "best" choice for Pask (of course it always depends on your playstyle and the opponent you face).

Pask in a Punisher: hits on 2+ (+ 3xHB, 1xHS)--> Infantry killer
Pask in an Executioner: (plasma sponsons, lascannon) again nice hits but you cannot be affected by your own orders, so no overcharge,
Pask in LMBT: (mulitmelta sponsons, lascannon) decent antitank unit

What do you think?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 15:47:57


Post by: Biophysical


I think 27 point mortar squads will be really good. Bring 2-3 of those to clean up whatever your line of sight weapons fail to kill, since you have great targeting flexibility. It's also one of the only things that puts a dent into hordes of stuff at a really good price point.

I'm also looking at the 4-man Command Squads as cheap special weapon carriers. Vets or SWS have more bodies, so they get Melta or Plasma, but you can bring 4 BS3+ Sniper Rifles for 32 points, or 4 Grenade Launchers for 44 points. They'll contribute, but be a lot lower priority than the hotter squads.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 15:48:46


Post by: Leth


50 points for a unit of 5 who can also be really good at taking objectives? Heck yeah. It is pretty cheap for what they can do, add in the potential to clear a unit off an objective with the hunting lances. Not bad for what you are paying


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 15:50:57


Post by: labmouse42


Biophysical wrote:
I'm also looking at the 4-man Command Squads as cheap special weapon carriers. Vets or SWS have more bodies, so they get Melta or Plasma, but you can bring 4 BS3+ Sniper Rifles for 32 points, or 4 Grenade Launchers for 44 points. They'll contribute, but be a lot lower priority than the hotter squads.
The BS3+ is pretty cool.
The lack of bullet catchers hurts.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 15:52:37


Post by: Therion


I just don't understand how they converted template weapons.

Like, you guys are talking about the Hellhound.

101 points, right? Hits 3.5 times on average with S6 and 1 times with S5 when moving.

Yet, a 100 point Razorback with twin Assault Cannons hits 6 times with S6 when moving, and 9 times if not moving.

Wasn't the Hellhound supposed to be an awesome short range anti-horde tank? It has damage 2, yes, which is great against... not hordes of infantry.

I really don't like how they converted blasts and flamer templates to D6 shots or D6 hits. They're too ineffective, and they don't punish masses of infantry that stack up too close to each other at all.




Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 16:05:29


Post by: Leth


 Therion wrote:
I just don't understand how they converted template weapons.

Like, you guys are talking about the Hellhound.

101 points, right? Hits 3.5 times on average with S6 and 1 times with S5 when moving.

Yet, a 100 point Razorback with twin Assault Cannons hits 6 times with S6 when moving, and 9 times if not moving.

Wasn't the Hellhound supposed to be an awesome short range anti-horde tank? It has damage 2, yes, which is great against... not hordes of infantry.

I really don't like how they converted blasts and flamer templates to D6 shots or D6 hits. They're too ineffective, and they don't punish masses of infantry that stack up too close to each other at all.





Because it forced people to spend all this time micromanaging their movement to limit the effects of blast weapons. I used to literally walk up to a game and ask "Do you have any blast weapons or not" if not it would shave a good 20-30 minutes off the game because I didnt have to micromange unit coherency and the like during every phase of the game. Does it add some realism? Maybe but the additional annoyance factor is not worth it IMO

Also its 3.5 auto hits, which you can still fire at 16 inches even after moving. That is really good, especially when you consider it does two wounds automatically.

So lets compare, Twin autocannon razorback moves, gets 6 hits, 4 wounds on a terminator causes 1.33 wounds
Inferno cannon gets 3.5 hits, 2 wounds, 2/3 chance to outright kill a terminator so 1.33 wounds

So roughly the same, only one is guaranteed while the other is more variable and subject to +s and -s to hit.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 16:09:04


Post by: Biophysical


 labmouse42 wrote:
Biophysical wrote:
I'm also looking at the 4-man Command Squads as cheap special weapon carriers. Vets or SWS have more bodies, so they get Melta or Plasma, but you can bring 4 BS3+ Sniper Rifles for 32 points, or 4 Grenade Launchers for 44 points. They'll contribute, but be a lot lower priority than the hotter squads.
The BS3+ is pretty cool.
The lack of bullet catchers hurts.


Yeah, that's why I was thinking cheaper special weapons are preferred. Most people aren't going to target them in preference of a Veteran plasma squad, but the grenade CS is still more firepower for the points than an Infantry squad is.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 16:09:20


Post by: ross-128


7-point flamers are more impressive with infantry models (with the obvious caveat that you've got to get them within 8" of something, but there's ways to do that).

A 45 point SWT (24 for models, 21 for three flamers) is getting 10.5 automatic hits at S4, plus an average of 3 S3 hits for rapid-firing their lasguns.

A 40 point infantry squad in rapid-fire is only looking at 9 S3 hits, though they can jump to an impressive 18 if they FRFSRF, but still S3.

I kind of wish I had 4-point Guardsman and/or 3-point Conscript versions of Command Squads. Something like "Junior Command Squads" and "Conscript Cadets" maybe. I'd love to be able to take 16/12 points of infantry models, give them 28 points of flamers, and kick them out the back of a plane for a barbecue. Low BS? No BS? No problem!


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 16:15:52


Post by: Therion


 Leth wrote:
 Therion wrote:
I just don't understand how they converted template weapons.

Like, you guys are talking about the Hellhound.

101 points, right? Hits 3.5 times on average with S6 and 1 times with S5 when moving.

Yet, a 100 point Razorback with twin Assault Cannons hits 6 times with S6 when moving, and 9 times if not moving.

Wasn't the Hellhound supposed to be an awesome short range anti-horde tank? It has damage 2, yes, which is great against... not hordes of infantry.

I really don't like how they converted blasts and flamer templates to D6 shots or D6 hits. They're too ineffective, and they don't punish masses of infantry that stack up too close to each other at all.





Because it forced people to spend all this time micromanaging their movement to limit the effects of blast weapons. I used to literally walk up to a game and ask "Do you have any blast weapons or not" if not it would shave a good 20-30 minutes off the game because I didnt have to micromange unit coherency and the like during every phase of the game. Does it add some realism? Maybe but the additional annoyance factor is not worth it IMO

Also its 3.5 auto hits, which you can still fire at 16 inches even after moving. That is really good, especially when you consider it does two wounds automatically.

So lets compare, Twin autocannon razorback moves, gets 6 hits, 4 wounds on a terminator causes 1.33 wounds
Inferno cannon gets 3.5 hits, 2 wounds, 2/3 chance to outright kill a terminator so 1.33 wounds

So roughly the same, only one is guaranteed while the other is more variable and subject to +s and -s to hit.


Yeah man I get why they did that. Simplicity and convenience. Yet, a flamer is now a lot more effective against a single model than it was before, and a lot less effective against infantry which it was intended against. The Hellhound's Inferno Cannon is actually pretty good vs tanks and monsters or characters. Lots of auto-hits that all do 2 damage each. Yet, 60 points of Brimstone Horrors, which is 30 models with 4+ invulnerable saves, stacked and moving with a movement tray, now completely laugh at that weapon. You won't kill even 10 points of models with the Hellhound.

THAT's the price of "simplicity and convenience" and bad balancing. All types of hordes are nearly impossible to deal with. Astra Militarum hordes included.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 16:37:45


Post by: labmouse42


I want to touch base on just how awesome the 4 point guardsman is...

Chaos cultists have a worse LD, a worse save and cost 5 points.
Acolytes, getting 1 more attack are 8 points each.

Guard also get the ability to form heavy weapons teams.
Guard also get the ability to benefit form commissars to only lose 1 model max from morale.
Guard get the ability to receive orders.

Guardsmen are top contenders for the best-low cost unit in the game. It's arguably the best feature of the new list.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 16:41:45


Post by: Trickstick


One thing about vehicle flamers that I haven't seen mentioned is that they retain their effectiveness no matter how hurt the vehicle is. That razorback is going to get worse as as it takes wounds. Hell, a Russ that has 3 wounds can't even use it's sponsons if it moves.

Also, with regards to mortars. A Wyvern is 93 points for 4d6 str4 reroll wounds. You can get 6 mortars and a company commander for 84, or just 9 mortars for 81. I don't think that rerolls are as good as double the fire power. It seems really weird that mortars may actually be good. Especially with how indirect fire is able to pick off any unit that tries to use LOS shenanigans.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 16:43:44


Post by: Biophysical


What's everybody's preferred HQ to bring en mass? We're gonna need a lot of HQ to open up the huge quantities of cheap elites and heavies we can field.

Company Commander is pretty cheap and supports the squads, and for a few points can contribute modestly in combat or close-range shooting. 30 points base is nice.

Primaris Psyker gives psykic defense, and the protection power seems really solid to keep key squads protected. He's also okay in a counter-attack role, although I'm not sure this is going to be important in this edition. He's 40.

Tempestor Prime is 40 base, with some wargear options. A lot like the Company Commander, but only works on Tempestus squads. If you've got those, probably a good choice.

Tank Commander: Good, but not cheap enough to take just to unlock slots.

Lord Commissar: 55 with the required Power Sword and Bolt Pistol. Best generic close combat character, and awesome special rules. Regular Commisar has the same special rules, but isn't as tough, so there's a bit of a tax if you don't want your Commissar to fight



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 17:00:31


Post by: Trickstick


Biophysical wrote:
What's everybody's preferred HQ to bring en mass?


I would say a mix of all of them, although they all fit differently depending on what else you have.

Company commander: the best order/cost ratio, these are going to be seen a lot. I know I used to hate 2 CCS lists because it felt like a really weird army structure, but now I think I'll just call 1 the Colonel and give him a weapon to make him stand out. Call the rest Majors or Captains.

Primaris: I will probably take one just to play around with psykers. I really don't know how many you need to effectively shield from power, or even if it is necessary. One thing that I have always remembered when looking at buffs and defenses for Guard: is it more efficient to just bring more of the thing I am trying to buff instead?

Tempestors: Take the number of scion squads you have and divide by two. That is how many rod wielding tempestors you should have. A great guy to have in those deep strikes.

Tank Commander: Want to use Russes? Bring a commander or two. Otherwise, don't bother. They are good at upping your Russ damage but are no harder to kill than a normal russ.

Lord Commissar: As you said, this is a Commissar that fights. If you want to get stuck in then a LC with a fist can be pretty good. Otherwise, just bring a normal one.

Overall, I am guessing that company commanders will be the one spammed. However, don't do so to the exclusion of other options. Some will see the cheapest option and take as many as they need to unlock the slots they want. However, the other options can all offer something useful to your army too.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 17:00:59


Post by: axisofentropy


 labmouse42 wrote:
I want to touch base on just how awesome the 4 point guardsman is...

Chaos cultists have a worse LD, a worse save and cost 5 points.
Acolytes, getting 1 more attack are 8 points each.
notice that acolytes have 3 Wounds each.

and i think ork boys are competing for best low-cost model.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 17:01:41


Post by: ross-128


Honestly, company commander. Shotguns are free, basically turns him into an extra lasgun within 12" and with his 6" order range he's going to be hugging a nearby squad anyway. And if I have leftover points, boltguns are 1 point. Great for wringing the last point out of a list.

Of course, there's also the fact that if you're just looking to unlock slots he is the cheapest after all. With our blobs broken up into MSUs we're going to want a lot more Orders to sling around anyway. So if you need to fill an HQ slot, it's hard to go wrong with even more commanders.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 17:16:30


Post by: Trickstick


 ross-128 wrote:
With our blobs broken up into MSUs we're going to want a lot more Orders to sling around anyway. So if you need to fill an HQ slot, it's hard to go wrong with even more commanders.


I've actually been pondering this point slightly. A plasma/autocannon squad is 62 point. So if we give it one order a turn from a company commander, it is pretty much costing half his points as well. That is about a 24% increase in cost. Do the orders increase the effectiveness of the squad 24%? I guess the mathhammer would show it but I personally don't know. Then we have the other problem, which is unit death. Say you have 10 infantry squads, with a mix of officers that give out 10 orders. Great, you can buff all of your squads! However, as soon as you lose a squad (which will happen about 17 femtoseconds after the game starts) then you are wasting orders.

Getting the right number of officers and squads is actually quite a tricky thing. I am starting to think that less officers, which can apply the orders to key units when needed, is actually a better method than trying to spam them.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 17:16:53


Post by: Therion


 axisofentropy wrote:
 labmouse42 wrote:
I want to touch base on just how awesome the 4 point guardsman is...

Chaos cultists have a worse LD, a worse save and cost 5 points.
Acolytes, getting 1 more attack are 8 points each.
notice that acolytes have 3 Wounds each.

and i think ork boys are competing for best low-cost model.


Orks are pretty great, but nothing will beat Brimstone Horrors. 2 points for 1 wound 4+ invulnerable and mini smite.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 17:18:48


Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


 Trickstick wrote:
 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
Unless you can convert Rough Riders (conversions from historic models are rather cheap... but will be banned in GW stores) or have too much money to spend on FW squads of them, the only other choice is sentinels anyway.


I don't think that rough riders are a good unit, and I say that as someone with cold one riding guardsmen who really wants to use them. They may be a good counter charge unit, if you can keep them alive. However the outflanking move relies on their ability to make a 9" charge roll, something that is far too unreliable to base a unit around. If they has some kind of "roll 3 and discard lowest" rule, to represent cavalry, then I think I would use them.


On the other hand, 9" is within range of rapid fire plasma guns and plasma pistols, so you could use rough riders as an alternative to suicide scions. They are a bit less flexible in deployment than scions and less good at shooting, but they have two wounds and are better at combat. They pop in, shoot up a high value target, and then attempt their reenactment of the charge of the light brigade. Not super reliable, but if they do pull off the charge after shooting, they are much higher impact than scions, and if they don't they aren't that much worse, while being comparable in cost.

vs 1 wound Marines

Scions: 5 plasma shots => 1.85 kills 2 hot-shots => 0.30 kills Charge (assuming 9" charge is made) => 0.39 kills
TOTAL: 2.54 kills assuming charge is made (2.26 kills including probability of making charge)

Rough Riders: 5 plasma shots => 1.39 kills 2 las-shots => 0.11 kills Charge (assuming 9" charge is made) => 1.89 kills
TOTAL: 3.39 kills assuming charge is made (1.91 kills including probability of making charge)

This doesn't take into account the added benefit of D3 damage hunting lances have against multiwound models, but it makes it clear that while on average a bit worse, Rough Riders do have higher upside if you make the charge, and their point costs are comparable.

Though if my math is off, please do correct me!


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 17:27:20


Post by: Red Corsair


Don't have time to read everything in here yet, will later, but anyone else notice scions are troops?

10 scions can take 4 plasma guns and a PP and it comes to 128 including the hellguns for the other 5.

I right now own enough Storm troopers to take 9 of those units one has 4 flamers at the moment and 3 have 4 melta guns....

I laso own 6 hellhounds which are 110....

10 ST squads with all plasma is 1280 add in 6 HH with couple flamers at 660 and I have points to spam in tempestor primes for double order greatness.... Rerolls to over charging plasma or rerolls on melta or wounding with flamers amd hellguns... Utterly broken.

This is the edition of hordes. I mean what in the feth were they thinking making a scion 10ppm and a troop while vets are elites at 6ppm with no kit and no delivery lol. Tanks that transport and are not open topped are dead, no fire points, get out start of turn. Why pay for a transport, a chinera with dual heavy F is 109, it's 110 for the hellhound LMAO you get a flat out superior turret weapon, moves faster and has 1 more wound.. Chimera lost command tank ability, amphibious (lol) but has those useful las gun arrays *eyeroll*


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 17:28:23


Post by: NH Gunsmith


Here is what I came up with, I wasn't trying to be super competitive, and thankfully with a few tweaks, my current army equalled 2,000 exactly. I know that missile launchers aren't as good as lascannons, but I have 18 Tallarn missile teams and don't plan on hunting down 18 Tallarn lascannons to replace them. Only thing I will have to do is track down 2 more Roughrider Sergeants and 3 more Roughriders to finish getting all 20.

HQ:
-Inquisitor Coteaz
-Inquisitor with Force Sword and Plasma Pistol
-Commissar Yarrick
-Company Commander with Plasma Pistol
-Company Commander with Boltgun

ELITE:
-2x Commissar with Boltgun and Power Sword
-2x Platoon Commander with Chainsword and Laspistol (well Autopistol haha)
-4x Command Squad with 2x Plasma Guns and Medi-Pack

TROOPS:
-6x Infantry Squads with Plasma Pistol, Plasma Gun and Missile Launcher

FAST:
-4x 5 man Roughrider Squads with Plasma Pistol

HEAVY:
-4x Heavy Weapon Squads with 3x Missile Launcher
-2x Leman Russ Demolishers with Executioner Plasma Cannon, Plasma Cannon Sponsons and Heavy Stubbed

2,000 Points


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 17:30:44


Post by: ross-128


 Trickstick wrote:
 ross-128 wrote:
With our blobs broken up into MSUs we're going to want a lot more Orders to sling around anyway. So if you need to fill an HQ slot, it's hard to go wrong with even more commanders.


I've actually been pondering this point slightly. A plasma/autocannon squad is 62 point. So if we give it one order a turn from a company commander, it is pretty much costing half his points as well. That is about a 24% increase in cost. Do the orders increase the effectiveness of the squad 24%? I guess the mathhammer would show it but I personally don't know. Then we have the other problem, which is unit death. Say you have 10 infantry squads, with a mix of officers that give out 10 orders. Great, you can buff all of your squads! However, as soon as you lose a squad (which will happen about 17 femtoseconds after the game starts) then you are wasting orders.

Getting the right number of officers and squads is actually quite a tricky thing. I am starting to think that less officers, which can apply the orders to key units when needed, is actually a better method than trying to spam them.


My current plan is to bring just enough for the infantry squads (or just barely enough to fill my mandatory HQ slots, whichever is more relevant at the time), but nothing for the heavy weapon teams. So when infantry squads start getting wiped I can just start dropping Aim or Bring it Down orders on heavy weapon teams instead. Though the officers that lost their squads will have to leg it to the back line unless I'm running a vox network to let them lead from behind. But they could issue themselves a MMM order to do that.

The commander is Infantry, he's the same regiment as himself, there's nothing that says he can't give an Order to himself, there's nothing that says you can't give an Order after advancing, and the MMM order says "instead of shooting", it doesn't say "instead of issuing Orders".

So the way I read it, if a commander loses his infantry squads then he can move and advance in the movement phase, then start the shooting phase by giving himself a MMM order to reach the back line, then issue an order to one of the HWTs.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 17:38:51


Post by: labmouse42


 axisofentropy wrote:
 labmouse42 wrote:
I want to touch base on just how awesome the 4 point guardsman is...

Chaos cultists have a worse LD, a worse save and cost 5 points.
Acolytes, getting 1 more attack are 8 points each.
notice that acolytes have 3 Wounds each.

and i think ork boys are competing for best low-cost model.
Nice. I did not see that they had 3 wounds each. That's pretty tight.

I also agree that ork boys are amazing, especially now with their STR boost.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 17:39:06


Post by: Trickstick


 Red Corsair wrote:
...anyone else notice scions are troops?


Yeah I'm quite liking the new Scions. However, I wouldn't use flamers on them because of the 8" range and the 9" deepstrike limit. I'm planning to use a 4x plasma and a 4x melta squad, backed up by a Tempestor with a rod to give orders. Also, don't forget that only up to half of your units can go in reserve, so you will need a decent army on the board as well.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 17:40:26


Post by: Red Corsair


 ross-128 wrote:
 Trickstick wrote:
 ross-128 wrote:
With our blobs broken up into MSUs we're going to want a lot more Orders to sling around anyway. So if you need to fill an HQ slot, it's hard to go wrong with even more commanders.


I've actually been pondering this point slightly. A plasma/autocannon squad is 62 point. So if we give it one order a turn from a company commander, it is pretty much costing half his points as well. That is about a 24% increase in cost. Do the orders increase the effectiveness of the squad 24%? I guess the mathhammer would show it but I personally don't know. Then we have the other problem, which is unit death. Say you have 10 infantry squads, with a mix of officers that give out 10 orders. Great, you can buff all of your squads! However, as soon as you lose a squad (which will happen about 17 femtoseconds after the game starts) then you are wasting orders.

Getting the right number of officers and squads is actually quite a tricky thing. I am starting to think that less officers, which can apply the orders to key units when needed, is actually a better method than trying to spam them.


My current plan is to bring just enough for the infantry squads (or just barely enough to fill my mandatory HQ slots, whichever is more relevant at the time), but nothing for the heavy weapon teams. So when infantry squads start getting wiped I can just start dropping Aim or Bring it Down orders on heavy weapon teams instead. Though the officers that lost their squads will have to leg it to the back line unless I'm running a vox network to let them lead from behind. But they could issue themselves a MMM order to do that.

The commander is Infantry, he's the same regiment as himself, there's nothing that says he can't give an Order to himself, there's nothing that says you can't give an Order after advancing, and the MMM order says "instead of shooting", it doesn't say "instead of issuing Orders".

So the way I read it, if a commander loses his infantry squads then he can move and advance in the movement phase, then start the shooting phase by giving himself a MMM order to reach the back line, then issue an order to one of the HWTs.



Honestly if his squishy ass survives all that then he deserves the reward


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Trickstick wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
...anyone else notice scions are troops?


Yeah I'm quite liking the new Scions. However, I wouldn't use flamers on them because of the 8" range and the 9" deepstrike limit. I'm planning to use a 4x plasma and a 4x melta squad, backed up by a Tempestor with a rod to give orders. Also, don't forget that only up to half of your units can go in reserve, so you will need a decent army on the board as well.


Yea thought of that, just split a couple units and spam hellhounds I know flamers are not the best choice for them but just mentioned I have 4 modeled, probably magnetize their barrel to look like meltas if I need it to. Can't break apart those converted flamers they look too sweet.

I am noticing every army is best off as a horde. I mean, look at orks. 6ppm was WAY to cheap IMO for marine stats (trade the BS for the attack and your there) while also having that insanely strong mob rule and ere we go... I mean what on earth were they thinking, with weird boys they can literally encircle someone and cover the table with battle shock immune marine equivalents. 30 choppa boys is 180... so 300 for 1800... come on GW. Nothing can kill that much while being hit 4 times in the face at s4. Thats 1200 attacks turn 1, obviously it will decline but thats insane damage output for the cost cost. hell go all shootas and thats 600 s4 shots a turn PLUS 900 s4 attacks in assault. It feels like we need to prepare for the ork meta IMO.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 17:53:36


Post by: NH Gunsmith


You know Red Corsair, that is a great point... but in all honesty I would have nothing against seeing more Ork players. I've grown quite use to uphill battles anyways, and I think it's finally time Orks got a boost. Plus, I use Yarrick, I love me some thematic battles


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 17:56:57


Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


The elites slots have so much competition now, is there any reason to bring junior officers? They are less points efficient for orders take up valuable space that could be filled with commissars or special weapons-toting guardsmen.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 17:58:17


Post by: ross-128


 Red Corsair wrote:


Honestly if his squishy ass survives all that then he deserves the reward



In practical terms Brave Sir Robin would probably be fleeing when the squads become combat ineffective rather than being completely wiped out, so they should have a small handful of models left to protect him with the IC targeting rule.

Technically doing that would probably raise a few eyebrows among the Commissars though. Lucky for him that's not represented in the rules!


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 17:59:49


Post by: Red Corsair


 NH Gunsmith wrote:
You know Red Corsair, that is a great point... but in all honesty I would have nothing against seeing more Ork players. I've grown quite use to uphill battles anyways, and I think it's finally time Orks got a boost. Plus, I use Yarrick, I love me some thematic battles


Hey don't get me wrong, I think the two best armies as of now are Orks and Nids, and I welcome both. But you have to facepalm at the math. Lets say we spam marines, 150 marines is 1950, not bad, but it only puts out 150 shots over 12, then in close range gets 300 plus another 100 in assault... just comparing that to the shear volume of the ork attack.. it's 50 bolter wounds at range, 100 at close vs t4 plus ~45 in assault. Compare that to the orks 100 wounds at only 6" shorter plus 300!!! wounds in assault! Oh and it is 150 pts cheaper


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
The elites slots have so much competition now, is there any reason to bring junior officers? They are less points efficient for orders take up valuable space that could be filled with commissars or special weapons-toting guardsmen.


Well i'd say its a trade, sure vets are elites but storm troopers are troopers now. I am banging that same drum, but if you want special weapons now, the best two ways are storm troops at the #1 and hilariously rough riders at the #2 as they are FA and much better then special weapon or vet/basic infantry. They move double, can take 2 guns per 5 and yet again come with special deployment rules and double the wounds... The costs are all over the map in these indexes. I mean what would you take, a primaris marine hellblaster 39 pts or a storm trooper with a plasma gun at 16?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 18:06:52


Post by: labmouse42


 Red Corsair wrote:
Hey don't get me wrong, I think the two best armies as of now are Orks and Nids, and I welcome both. But you have to facepalm at the math. Lets say we spam marines, 150 marines is 1950, not bad, but it only puts out 150 shots over 12, then in close range gets 300 plus another 100 in assault... just comparing that to the shear volume of the ork attack.. it's 50 bolter wounds at range, 100 at close vs t4 plus ~45 in assault. Compare that to the orks 100 wounds at only 6" shorter plus 300!!! wounds in assault! Oh and it is 150 pts cheaper
I played horde orks for a while, and I can tell you that's getting them all into the fight takes time.
Orks are going to be awesome. I expect they will be 'fully competitive'. I don't however, expect them to auto-win every game.

Slaanesh daemonettes will tear orks a new donkey-cave. 3 of them actually. Artfully arranged in a random pattern.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 18:09:43


Post by: Leth


Honestly with orders I have a hard time justifying special weapons on the scions. Keep them cheap and sacrificial. A few scions drop in with a tempestor and you try to position them for some character hunting.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 18:13:33


Post by: Red Corsair


 labmouse42 wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
Hey don't get me wrong, I think the two best armies as of now are Orks and Nids, and I welcome both. But you have to facepalm at the math. Lets say we spam marines, 150 marines is 1950, not bad, but it only puts out 150 shots over 12, then in close range gets 300 plus another 100 in assault... just comparing that to the shear volume of the ork attack.. it's 50 bolter wounds at range, 100 at close vs t4 plus ~45 in assault. Compare that to the orks 100 wounds at only 6" shorter plus 300!!! wounds in assault! Oh and it is 150 pts cheaper
I played horde orks for a while, and I can tell you that's getting them all into the fight takes time.
Orks are going to be awesome. I expect they will be 'fully competitive'. I don't however, expect them to auto-win every game.

Slaanesh daemonettes will tear orks a new donkey-cave. 3 of them actually. Artfully arranged in a random pattern.


Yea my fast and lose math is at a very basic scenario because I hate trying to play the hypothetical game. That said, this edition is way easier on the orks then early 5th. Nothing is an auto win against anyone worth playing, that said if your assume equal skill on both sides (which I always do for these hypotheticals) orks are much more forgiving, thus easier to play. In regard to demonettes, they are a great counter, but I am not sold on their durability yet since they dont have a solid answer to battleshock like the orks and are much more fragile.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 18:14:05


Post by: Mr.Moe


On the topic of HQ choices:

What do you think about putting an Officer of the Fleet on a fighting Valkyrie? Rerolling 1s on targets within 18" for 20pts plus his little strafe ability. It seems a bit expensive but fun. Probably totally worth it if you use more than 1 Valkyrie.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 18:15:51


Post by: Red Corsair


 Leth wrote:
Honestly with orders I have a hard time justifying special weapons on the scions. Keep them cheap and sacrificial. A few scions drop in with a tempestor and you try to position them for some character hunting.
Seriously? a plasma gun is 6 points, a hellgun is 1. So for 6 points you get another -1 rend, more then double the strength and nearly triple the strength and double the damage with over charging. It is cheap and sacrificial lol.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 18:16:25


Post by: ross-128


 Leth wrote:
Honestly with orders I have a hard time justifying special weapons on the scions. Keep them cheap and sacrificial. A few scions drop in with a tempestor and you try to position them for some character hunting.


Well, keep in mind two of the orders are re-rolling 1s to hit and re-rolling 1s to wound. So you do have damage-boosting options for non-lasguns, though they're not nearly the straight-up doubling you get from FRFSRF.

Re-rolling 1s on plasma guns lets you recklessly overcharge them though, and that does quite literally double their damage.

I think it would be interesting to see how the mathhammer works out though for wounds-per-point though, for FRFSRF hot-shot squads vs Aim+Overcharge plasma squads (though I'm sure it depends very much on the Toughness of your target).


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 18:19:07


Post by: Red Corsair


 Mr.Moe wrote:
On the topic of HQ choices:

What do you think about putting an Officer of the Fleet on a fighting Valkyrie? Rerolling 1s on targets within 18" for 20pts plus his little strafe ability. It seems a bit expensive but fun. Probably totally worth it if you use more than 1 Valkyrie.
Well a Valkyrie is 160 with it's base guns, plus now your adding in the OotF for 25. So 185 isn't terrible compared to other armies fliers but your not puting out all that much damage. I really dislike the one time use abilities that only work half the time, granted you can make it a 75% chance with a command point, but I don't want to spend those before the game starts personally.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 18:20:19


Post by: NH Gunsmith


Is this where we can start to see the merit of the Missile Launcher over the Lascannon for a good all around heavy weapon? S8 AP-2 with D6 damage is still nothing to sneeze at, but the Frag option, what is it D3 shots at S4? Against the standard Ork Boyz save it will give us some good ranged anti horde firepower if there isn't any good hard targets.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 18:25:16


Post by: ross-128


 NH Gunsmith wrote:
Is this where we can start to see the merit of the Missile Launcher over the Lascannon for a good all around heavy weapon? S8 AP-2 with D6 damage is still nothing to sneeze at, but the Frag option, what is it D3 shots at S4? Against the standard Ork Boyz save it will give us some good ranged anti horde firepower if there isn't any good hard targets.


The Krak missile is Heavy 1 S8 AP-2 D6, so certainly competitive with the lascannon.
The frag missile is Heavy d6 S4 AP0 D1, not bad for a secondary fire.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 18:25:25


Post by: labmouse42


 Red Corsair wrote:
Yea my fast and lose math is at a very basic scenario because I hate trying to play the hypothetical game. That said, this edition is way easier on the orks then early 5th. Nothing is an auto win against anyone worth playing, that said if your assume equal skill on both sides (which I always do for these hypotheticals) orks are much more forgiving, thus easier to play. In regard to demonettes, they are a great counter, but I am not sold on their durability yet since they dont have a solid answer to battleshock like the orks and are much more fragile.
Greater daemons and icons seem to be the keys to mitigate battleshock. The greater daemon gives the unit a LD of 10. A herald gives them STR 4. A DP lets them reroll 1's to hit, which works well with rending. Banners mean that 1/6 of the time they get bigger when suffering battleshock tests.
I'm noticing a theme with this edition where support units are really critical.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 18:29:23


Post by: Red Corsair


 ross-128 wrote:
 Leth wrote:
Honestly with orders I have a hard time justifying special weapons on the scions. Keep them cheap and sacrificial. A few scions drop in with a tempestor and you try to position them for some character hunting.


Well, keep in mind two of the orders are re-rolling 1s to hit and re-rolling 1s to wound. So you do have damage-boosting options for non-lasguns, though they're not nearly the straight-up doubling you get from FRFSRF.

Re-rolling 1s on plasma guns lets you recklessly overcharge them though, and that does quite literally double their damage.

I think it would be interesting to see how the mathhammer works out though for wounds-per-point though, for FRFSRF hot-shot squads vs Aim+Overcharge plasma squads (though I'm sure it depends very much on the Toughness of your target).
Yea your stuck with one order per unit I believe which makes the hellguns very strong honestly but once you hit that t6 mark they lode 50% of their damage while over charged plasma or melta runs away with the damage once you twin link the wounding or hitting.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 18:36:03


Post by: Trickstick


 Leth wrote:
Honestly with orders I have a hard time justifying special weapons on the scions. Keep them cheap and sacrificial. A few scions drop in with a tempestor and you try to position them for some character hunting.


Hotshots have a 9" rapid fire range, which you must be outside of if you drop. That makes the 12" range from melta or rapid fire plasma really useful.

 Mr.Moe wrote:
What do you think about putting an Officer of the Fleet on a fighting Valkyrie?


If you are in a transport, you cant interact in any way with anything unless specifically stated otherwise.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 18:36:09


Post by: Red Corsair


 labmouse42 wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
Yea my fast and lose math is at a very basic scenario because I hate trying to play the hypothetical game. That said, this edition is way easier on the orks then early 5th. Nothing is an auto win against anyone worth playing, that said if your assume equal skill on both sides (which I always do for these hypotheticals) orks are much more forgiving, thus easier to play. In regard to demonettes, they are a great counter, but I am not sold on their durability yet since they dont have a solid answer to battleshock like the orks and are much more fragile.
Greater daemons and icons seem to be the keys to mitigate battleshock. The greater daemon gives the unit a LD of 10. A herald gives them STR 4. A DP lets them reroll 1's to hit, which works well with rending. Banners mean that 1/6 of the time they get bigger when suffering battleshock tests.
I'm noticing a theme with this edition where support units are really critical.


Yea, it's similar to AoD where stacking buffs is the key. That said, I like the orks more still since they not only come with an engineered set of buffs but they also provide a buff themselves. That and they also work in both killing phases. That alone is the tie break IMHO, I have played slaanesh demons and love them, but the lack of shooting means smart players can restrict your mobility and charges with bubble wrap and smart movement which is frustrating at times. The heralds are awesome BTY and I like the keeper even though lets be honest, that buff is going away very quickly since he is exposed and he isn't cheap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Trickstick wrote:
 Leth wrote:
Honestly with orders I have a hard time justifying special weapons on the scions. Keep them cheap and sacrificial. A few scions drop in with a tempestor and you try to position them for some character hunting.


Hotshots have a 9" rapid fire range, which you must be outside of if you drop. That makes the 12" range from melta or rapid fire plasma really useful.

 Mr.Moe wrote:
What do you think about putting an Officer of the Fleet on a fighting Valkyrie?


If you are in a transport, you cant interact in any way with anything unless specifically stated otherwise.


Two awesome points, first one I KEEP forgetting. DEFINITELY take specials on scions...I mean storm troopers


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 18:45:14


Post by: Trickstick


 Red Corsair wrote:
Two awesome points, first one I KEEP forgetting. DEFINITELY take specials on scions...I mean storm troopers


Or Kasrkin... (-:

Actually, I have 30 Kasrkin and a Scion command squad. I'm conflicted in my loyalties.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 18:51:33


Post by: Red Corsair


 Trickstick wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
Two awesome points, first one I KEEP forgetting. DEFINITELY take specials on scions...I mean storm troopers


Or Kasrkin... (-:

Actually, I have 30 Kasrkin and a Scion command squad. I'm conflicted in my loyalties.


I converted my guardsmen with space marine scouts legs and heads for carapace vets so I have 90 uparmored guys I am fielding as scions, THEN I own 20 metal kasrkin and 40 of the original metal storm troopers LMAO. I have so fething many drop troopers and I hadn't really realized it. Time to get painting I guess

I am going to field an all storm trooper army with 6 hell hounds and characters, I think it will be quite strong, makes up for the nerfs that ruined my GSC and DE . I also have 50 painted berserkers, 7 painted berserker bikers and some terminators, I think that army will be funny too. My brother an I have strange tendancies toward tons of infantry, I think he has some 90 skitarii, 80+ guardians and around 90 greenwing dark angles... I think some bizarre gaming is about to hit our group


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 18:55:17


Post by: Mr.Moe


If you are in a transport, you cant interact in any way with anything unless specifically stated otherwise.


aaaah, I totally overlooked that, can someone tell me where the transport rules are specified?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 18:56:04


Post by: Trickstick


 Mr.Moe wrote:
If you are in a transport, you cant interact in any way with anything unless specifically stated otherwise.


aaaah, I totally overlooked that, can someone tell me where the transport rules are specified?


Box on page 183.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 19:02:43


Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


 ross-128 wrote:
 Leth wrote:
Honestly with orders I have a hard time justifying special weapons on the scions. Keep them cheap and sacrificial. A few scions drop in with a tempestor and you try to position them for some character hunting.


Well, keep in mind two of the orders are re-rolling 1s to hit and re-rolling 1s to wound. So you do have damage-boosting options for non-lasguns, though they're not nearly the straight-up doubling you get from FRFSRF.

Re-rolling 1s on plasma guns lets you recklessly overcharge them though, and that does quite literally double their damage.

I think it would be interesting to see how the mathhammer works out though for wounds-per-point though, for FRFSRF hot-shot squads vs Aim+Overcharge plasma squads (though I'm sure it depends very much on the Toughness of your target).


It's important to note that since Scions have to be set up "more than 9 inches" away, they will not be within rapid fire range.

Hotshot Only 10-man -- 90pts

Plasmaspam 10-man -- 118

vs T4 2+

Hotshots + FRFSRF => 2.11 wounds (42.65 points per wound)

Plasmaspam + Aim => 8.33 wounds (14.17 points per wound) (and an average of 0.25 brave scions lost to overheating)

vs T5 3+

Hotshots + FRFSRF => 2.81 wounds (32 points per wound)

Plasmaspam + Aim => 8.51 wounds (13.87 points per wound) (and an average of 0.25 brave scions lost to overheating)

Sooooooo yeah. Plasma is good.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 19:22:10


Post by: Leth


Good points!!

Didnt see how cheap the plasma was, in that case I would just take CMD squads with 4 plasma for 16 points each. 64 points, two of them and a Tempestor Prime. Do this twice and you got the elite detachment filled. Not bad for 336 points.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 19:34:21


Post by: ross-128


Yeah, what's really nice is that since overcharging gives you S8, you're getting that 3+ all the way up to T7. Overcharged plasma is actually quite a fine anti-tank weapon, and tempestor command squads are a great way to make it magically appear right next to a very expensive target.

If you can pop them into cover while you're at it you might even get a couple more rounds of shooting out of them.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 19:44:45


Post by: Red Corsair


 ross-128 wrote:
Yeah, what's really nice is that since overcharging gives you S8, you're getting that 3+ all the way up to T7. Overcharged plasma is actually quite a fine anti-tank weapon, and tempestor command squads are a great way to make it magically appear right next to a very expensive target.

If you can pop them into cover while you're at it you might even get a couple more rounds of shooting out of them.


Especially since terrain has zero negative impact in this edition. Always walk through it if you can. I actually really hate that fact.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 19:45:04


Post by: nevertellmetheodds


Has anyone seen the Vendetta rules anywhere? I am guessing this is now seriously powerful with 6 Lascannon shots so guessing it will get grouped in with the big boy stuff later?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 19:52:43


Post by: Trickstick


 ross-128 wrote:
Yeah, what's really nice is that since overcharging gives you S8, you're getting that 3+ all the way up to T7. Overcharged plasma is actually quite a fine anti-tank weapon, and tempestor command squads are a great way to make it magically appear right next to a very expensive target.


It's the 2 damage that struck me. Pretty much overcharge against anything with mroe than one wound, or if the str8 makes your roll better.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 20:30:51


Post by: deltaKshatriya


Well, I for one, believe that I could probably get away with not changing my old list:

Astra Militarum (1750/1850pt.) 1750 tank division with multiple detachments
http://hq-builder.com/shared/183266


@Primary Detachment [ 1 ]

'Emperor's Fist' Armoured Company
Astra Militarum;

Knight Commander Pask (425pt.)
> 1x - Command Leman Russ Punisher (175pt.); Searchlight; Smoke launchers; Punisher gatling cannon; Heavy bolter (x3); Camo netting;
> 1x - Leman Russ Vanquisher (180pt.); Searchlight; Smoke launchers; Vanquisher battle cannon; Lascannon; Multimelta (x2); Camo netting;
Leman Russ Squadron (185pt.)
> 1x - Leman Russ Demolisher (185pt.); Searchlight; Smoke launchers; Demolisher siege cannon; Heavy bolter; Camo netting;
Leman Russ Squadron (135pt.)
> 1x - Leman Russ Eradicator (135pt.); Searchlight; Smoke launchers; Eradicator nova cannon; Heavy flamer; Camo netting;
Leman Russ Squadron (180pt.)
> 1x - Leman Russ Vanquisher (180pt.); Searchlight; Smoke launchers; Vanquisher battle cannon; Lascannon; Multimelta (x2); Camo netting;
Enginseer (45pt.) Power armour; Laspistol; Power axe; Frag grenades; Krak grenades; Servo-arm; Melta bombs;
@Secondary Detachment [ 2 ]

Astra Militarum (Combined arms detachment)
Astra Militarum;

@HQ [ 2 ]

5x - Company Command Squad (60pt.)
> 1x - Company Commander ; Refractor field; Frag grenades; Close combat weapon; Laspistol; Flak armour;
> 4x - Veteran ; Frag grenades; Lasgun; Flak armour;


Ministorum Priest (25pt.) Flak armour; Frag grenades; Close combat weapon; Rosarius; Laspistol;

@Troops [ 2 ]

Infantry Platoon (220pt.)
# Platoon Command Squad (30pt.)
> 1x - Platoon Commander ; Flak armour; Frag grenades; Close combat weapon; Laspistol;
> 4x - Guardsman ; Flak armour; Frag grenades; Lasgun;
# 2x - Infantry Squad (50pt.)
> 1x - Sergeant ; Flak armour; Frag grenades; Close combat weapon; Laspistol;
> 9x - Guardsman ; Frag grenades; Flak armour; Lasgun;
# Conscripts (90pt.)
> 30x - Conscript ; Frag grenades; Flak armour; Lasgun;


10x - Veterans (125pt.)
> 1x - Veteran Sergeant ; Frag grenades; Close combat weapon; Laspistol; Flak armour;
> 9x - Veteran ; Frag grenades; Lasgun; Flak armour;
> 1x - Chimera (65pt.); Searchlight; Smoke launchers; Heavy bolter; Multi-laser;


Oathsworn detachment

@Lords of War [ 1 ]

Knight Paladin (375pt.) Heavy stubber (x2); Rapid-fire battle cannon; Ion shield; Reaper chainsword;

Statistics:
* Models: 79
* Units: 14

@Created by Head Quarters - online roster builder

The point totals haven't been updated, but something similar to this is what I will keep.

I may also just end up going for an all tank list, or maybe an armored division with a Knight, or with artillery.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
nevertellmetheodds wrote:
Has anyone seen the Vendetta rules anywhere? I am guessing this is now seriously powerful with 6 Lascannon shots so guessing it will get grouped in with the big boy stuff later?


I didn't see anything in the leaks, but I might've missed it.

Is it just me, or does it actually seem viable to use tank spam in the new edition?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 20:36:36


Post by: Ragnar Blackmane


 Leth wrote:
Honestly with orders I have a hard time justifying special weapons on the scions. Keep them cheap and sacrificial. A few scions drop in with a tempestor and you try to position them for some character hunting.

...
What.
Take two 10 men Scion Squads with 4 plasma guns and a plasma pistol. 133 points each with a vox. Take a Tempestus for 40. You now have 8 (overcharged) plasma shots at 24" and EIGHTEEN (overcharged) plasma shots at 12", that hit on 3+ and re-roll all 1s on the hit roll (massively limiting overheating casualties) thanks to orders. And that's before even considering all those hotshot guns throwing in their weight as well. They completely outclass Executioner Russes or those new plasma Primaris marines. And you can place them anywhere on the board where you want, right in cover for a 3+ save.

People should stop treating them as suicide units only, they now have serious potential in simply reinforcing a battle line. They are VERY cost efficient and extremely flexible as they come with a free and risk free "place anywhere on the board" transport built in (unlike veterans or command squads which need a very pricy chimera/taurox/valkyrie). Playing against assault armies that rush you? Place in your gunline and slaughter elite units after popping their transport. Playing a board with tons of spread out objectives? Nab them with the Scions and discourage units from going there with the massed firepower. Playing against tau? Place them 9" away, blast two suit units away and then proceed to move-rapid fire-assault with them in the following turns.

They are an extremely point efficient nightmare for any marine army and elite unit. 16 points for a 3+ to hit plasma gun with a 3+ save in cover who will re-roll 1s to hit and overcharge as much as they want. A single squad of them with the 5x plasma set-up will downright delete any terminator unit from the board in one shooting phase at 12" with the Take Aim! order if it doesn't have storm shields (if that is even enough to save them with all the D2 wounds they'll have to save).


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 20:45:27


Post by: Leth


 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
 Leth wrote:
Honestly with orders I have a hard time justifying special weapons on the scions. Keep them cheap and sacrificial. A few scions drop in with a tempestor and you try to position them for some character hunting.

...
What.
Take two 10 men Scion Squads with 4 plasma guns and a plasma pistol. 133 points each with a vox. Take a Tempestus for 40. You now have 8 (overcharged) plasma shots at 24" and EIGHTEEN (overcharged) plasma shots at 12", that hit on 3+ and re-roll all 1s on the hit roll (massively limiting overheating casualties) thanks to orders. And that's before even considering all those hotshot guns throwing in their weight as well. They completely outclass Executioner Russes or those new plasma Primaris marines. And you can place them anywhere on the board where you want, right in cover for a 3+ save.

People should stop treating them as suicide units only, they now have serious potential in simply reinforcing a battle line. They are VERY cost efficient and extremely flexible as they come with a free and risk free "place anywhere on the board" transport built in (unlike veterans or command squads which need a very pricy chimera/taurox/valkyrie). Playing against assault armies that rush you? Place in your gunline and slaughter elite units after popping their transport. Playing a board with tons of spread out objectives? Nab them with the Scions and discourage units from going there with the massed firepower. Playing against tau? Place them 9" away, blast two suit units away and then proceed to move-rapid fire-assault with them in the following turns.

They are an extremely point efficient nightmare for any marine army and elite unit. 16 points for a 3+ to hit plasma gun with a 3+ save in cover who will re-roll 1s to hit and overcharge as much as they want. A single squad of them with the 5x plasma set-up will downright delete any terminator unit from the board in one shooting phase at 12" with the Take Aim! order if it doesn't have storm shields (if that is even enough to save them with all the D2 wounds they'll have to save).


I missed how cheap special weapons were for guard. Corrected later.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 20:50:03


Post by: Ragnar Blackmane


 Leth wrote:
 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
 Leth wrote:
Honestly with orders I have a hard time justifying special weapons on the scions. Keep them cheap and sacrificial. A few scions drop in with a tempestor and you try to position them for some character hunting.

...
What.
Take two 10 men Scion Squads with 4 plasma guns and a plasma pistol. 133 points each with a vox. Take a Tempestus for 40. You now have 8 (overcharged) plasma shots at 24" and EIGHTEEN (overcharged) plasma shots at 12", that hit on 3+ and re-roll all 1s on the hit roll (massively limiting overheating casualties) thanks to orders. And that's before even considering all those hotshot guns throwing in their weight as well. They completely outclass Executioner Russes or those new plasma Primaris marines. And you can place them anywhere on the board where you want, right in cover for a 3+ save.

People should stop treating them as suicide units only, they now have serious potential in simply reinforcing a battle line. They are VERY cost efficient and extremely flexible as they come with a free and risk free "place anywhere on the board" transport built in (unlike veterans or command squads which need a very pricy chimera/taurox/valkyrie). Playing against assault armies that rush you? Place in your gunline and slaughter elite units after popping their transport. Playing a board with tons of spread out objectives? Nab them with the Scions and discourage units from going there with the massed firepower. Playing against tau? Place them 9" away, blast two suit units away and then proceed to move-rapid fire-assault with them in the following turns.

They are an extremely point efficient nightmare for any marine army and elite unit. 16 points for a 3+ to hit plasma gun with a 3+ save in cover who will re-roll 1s to hit and overcharge as much as they want. A single squad of them with the 5x plasma set-up will downright delete any terminator unit from the board in one shooting phase at 12" with the Take Aim! order if it doesn't have storm shields (if that is even enough to save them with all the D2 wounds they'll have to save).


I missed how cheap special weapons were for guard. Corrected later.

Yep, saw that a minute ago.
Was busy furiously typing my wall of text, sorry for that .

Really, REALLY happy with the scions though, just bought 20 2nd hand Kasrkin and 10 3rd Edition Stormtroopers to reinforce the 6 Kasrkin I already have a week ago because I love the models so much, it's amazing that I'll be able to field two full Kasrkin units and actually have them be a competitive choice. Only problem is I only own 3 of the Kasrkin plasma gunners, will have to build another 5 plasma gunners with an extra scion box.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 21:01:11


Post by: ross-128


Yeah, I think scion plasma ninjas might be my preferred method of assassination in 8th. Sure, I'll need a 9" gap to get behind/next to an IC, but I'm pretty sure my gunline can make a hole. And when they do, their warlord won't know what hit them.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 21:25:41


Post by: Trickstick


A thought that I had about heavy weapon squads and splitting fire. We are used to using matched sets, with 3 lascannons or autocannons etc. However, the 3 lascannons could result in overkill against a tank, making the 2nd or 3rd one waste firepower. Would it not be better to have mixed HWSs, with for example a lascannon bolter and mortar? That would mean you would shoot the first lascannon, with the other guns going into troops. If the tank needed another shot, shoot the second. You are saving fire by not having to guess how many lascannons are needed for a target, taking the gambling away slightly.

I thought orders may hurt this idea, but none of them need a target anymore and just giving reroll 1s to hit helps all of the weapons you could use anyway.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 21:56:51


Post by: ross-128


What I've been doing is embedding my anti-tank weapons in infantry squads, where they can benefit from ablative wounds. Each one can only take one heavy weapon anyway, so it has the same effect. I use independent heavy weapon squads for masses of cheap anti-infantry weapons like mortars or heavy bolters, so they won't be such juicy targets (or in the case of mortars, they can hide out of LoS).


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 22:00:05


Post by: Paintalist


 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
 Leth wrote:
Honestly with orders I have a hard time justifying special weapons on the scions. Keep them cheap and sacrificial. A few scions drop in with a tempestor and you try to position them for some character hunting.

...
What.
Take two 10 men Scion Squads with 4 plasma guns and a plasma pistol. 133 points each with a vox. Take a Tempestus for 40. You now have 8 (overcharged) plasma shots at 24" and EIGHTEEN (overcharged) plasma shots at 12", that hit on 3+ and re-roll all 1s on the hit roll (massively limiting overheating casualties) thanks to orders. And that's before even considering all those hotshot guns throwing in their weight as well. They completely outclass Executioner Russes or those new plasma Primaris marines. And you can place them anywhere on the board where you want, right in cover for a 3+ save.

People should stop treating them as suicide units only, they now have serious potential in simply reinforcing a battle line. They are VERY cost efficient and extremely flexible as they come with a free and risk free "place anywhere on the board" transport built in (unlike veterans or command squads which need a very pricy chimera/taurox/valkyrie). Playing against assault armies that rush you? Place in your gunline and slaughter elite units after popping their transport. Playing a board with tons of spread out objectives? Nab them with the Scions and discourage units from going there with the massed firepower. Playing against tau? Place them 9" away, blast two suit units away and then proceed to move-rapid fire-assault with them in the following turns.

They are an extremely point efficient nightmare for any marine army and elite unit. 16 points for a 3+ to hit plasma gun with a 3+ save in cover who will re-roll 1s to hit and overcharge as much as they want. A single squad of them with the 5x plasma set-up will downright delete any terminator unit from the board in one shooting phase at 12" with the Take Aim! order if it doesn't have storm shields (if that is even enough to save them with all the D2 wounds they'll have to save).


The rules say that the Tempestus Prime lose his pistol option for an commandrod upgrade (making 2 orders instead of one) So your boss cannot shoot anymore :( It doesnt matter anyway because you fire 8-16 plasma shots per squad.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 22:00:13


Post by: vipoid


I've got a question for you, chaps, if I was going to do an all-infantry army, what weapon combinations would you recommend for infantry squads?

e.g. is it worth putting a plasmagun with a lascannon? Does an autocannon go best with a grenade launcher, a plasmagun or something else (or nothing)? What heavy weapon (if any) would you recommend for infantry squads using short-ranged weapons like meltas or flamers?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 22:00:24


Post by: Trickstick


 ross-128 wrote:
What I've been doing is embedding my anti-tank weapons in infantry squads, where they can benefit from ablative wounds. Each one can only take one heavy weapon anyway, so it has the same effect. I use independent heavy weapon squads for masses of cheap anti-infantry weapons like mortars or heavy bolters, so they won't be such juicy targets (or in the case of mortars, they can hide out of LoS).


Not a bad idea. I guess the lascannons are best in the second line of infantry, as the front line is going to get assaulted very quickly sometimes. Or get conscripts for that front line.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 22:05:16


Post by: Leth


One thing I think we have to be careful of is going too far all in on anti elite. Hordes will most likely be making a comeback as well so a take all comers list needs to be ready to deal with that.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 22:21:07


Post by: Aaranis


Hey guys, I'm a Mechanicus player that was looking forward for 8th Ed. so I can finally buy the Start Collecting Scions because I absolutely love the models and their capacities, now that they're scatter-free I really want to use them, however finding a loadout with them is a nightmare. At first I was looking on using the 5 Scions as anti-tank with two Meltaguns via the Taurox Prime, backed by the Lord Commissar, and the Tempestor with Command Rod as support to deep-striking Command Squad full of plasma to make them reroll their 1s to hit and then to wound while supercharged. But now that we've been discussing it a bit on the Mechanicus thread it looks like the weakness of our army is dealing with hordes, so I had another idea. Deepstriking Tempestor Prime + Command squad, full of Hot-Shot volley guns, with the same orders. 16 shots at S4, AP -1 at 24" range. I love picturing the paratroopers deploying their miniguns atop a building to rain death from above. As for the other 5 Scions I don't know, I guess I'd give them two Meltaguns or leave them as they are. I'm not sure if the Taurox Prime is a great asset or not, on one hand it's fast and can equip a 20 shots Gatling Cannon + some other weapons, but on the other hand I wonder if Deepstriking is not a better option ? At least no one can blow them up this way.

What are your thoughts on this ?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 22:23:59


Post by: ross-128


That's one area where I'm definitely expecting missile launchers to shine.

Before:
S8 would wound 6-/7/8/9/10 on 2/3/4/5/6 respectively, S9 rolls 1 better at every level
S8 would wound AV 10/11/12/13/14 on 2/3/4/5/6 respectively, S9 rolls 1 better at every level
AP3 would deny 3+ or less, did nothing against cover
3" blast would get 2 hits at most with good spacing, could easily get 0-1 hits on scatter.
S4 useless against T6 or higher

After:
S8 will wound 4- on 2, 5-7 on 3, 8 on 4, 9-15 on 5. S9 is identical for everything except 8/9/16.
AP-2 works against all save values and negates cover
d6 damage can remove chunks from enemy vehicles
d6 blast averages 3.5 shots, 1.75 hits at BS4+. Can get up to 6 hits, complete misses much rarer. Can be improved by Orders.
S4 is still a 5+ to wound all the way up to T7, can wound anything.

It seems the missile launcher has gone from being mediocre at everything, good at nothing, to just being good at everything.

27 point mortar teams and 36 point heavy bolter teams will be a lot of help against hordes too.

Edit:
Regarding deep-striking: see the above discussion about plasma scions. Plasma is REALLY GOOD in 8th and REALLY CHEAP for the Imperial Guard. I'd say that for deep-striking, due to the 9" rule and the Tempestor Prime's ability to make the Scions re-roll Gets Hot rolls, plasma is far better at anti-tank than melta is and at a lower cost to boot.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 22:27:43


Post by: Ragnar Blackmane


 Paintalist wrote:
 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
 Leth wrote:
Honestly with orders I have a hard time justifying special weapons on the scions. Keep them cheap and sacrificial. A few scions drop in with a tempestor and you try to position them for some character hunting.

...
What.
Take two 10 men Scion Squads with 4 plasma guns and a plasma pistol. 133 points each with a vox. Take a Tempestus for 40. You now have 8 (overcharged) plasma shots at 24" and EIGHTEEN (overcharged) plasma shots at 12", that hit on 3+ and re-roll all 1s on the hit roll (massively limiting overheating casualties) thanks to orders. And that's before even considering all those hotshot guns throwing in their weight as well. They completely outclass Executioner Russes or those new plasma Primaris marines. And you can place them anywhere on the board where you want, right in cover for a 3+ save.

People should stop treating them as suicide units only, they now have serious potential in simply reinforcing a battle line. They are VERY cost efficient and extremely flexible as they come with a free and risk free "place anywhere on the board" transport built in (unlike veterans or command squads which need a very pricy chimera/taurox/valkyrie). Playing against assault armies that rush you? Place in your gunline and slaughter elite units after popping their transport. Playing a board with tons of spread out objectives? Nab them with the Scions and discourage units from going there with the massed firepower. Playing against tau? Place them 9" away, blast two suit units away and then proceed to move-rapid fire-assault with them in the following turns.

They are an extremely point efficient nightmare for any marine army and elite unit. 16 points for a 3+ to hit plasma gun with a 3+ save in cover who will re-roll 1s to hit and overcharge as much as they want. A single squad of them with the 5x plasma set-up will downright delete any terminator unit from the board in one shooting phase at 12" with the Take Aim! order if it doesn't have storm shields (if that is even enough to save them with all the D2 wounds they'll have to save).


The rules say that the Tempestus Prime lose his pistol option for an commandrod upgrade (making 2 orders instead of one) So your boss cannot shoot anymore :( It doesnt matter anyway because you fire 8-16 plasma shots per squad.

The Scion/Stormtrooper squad leader (non-prime Tempestor) can take a 5pt. plasma pistol, which I included in the 133pt. squads (4x Plasma Gun, 1x Plasma Pistol, 1x Vox+Pistol, 4 regular Hotshot-lasguns). I didn't calculate the 40pt. Tempestor Prime into my shooting because, well, he can't shoot anything with his command rod. Not that he needs to, he is simply there to hand out re-rollable 1s to hit for both plasma scion squads, which is a massive buff well worth the points considering your can supercharge your shots with abandon (in addition to basically hitting with almost 83% of your shots).

The vox casters are only there so you are not forced to place both Scion squads together but can keep one of them 18" away from the Prime (I like tactical flexibility). Theoretically you could leave those off, save 10 points and keep two hotshot lasguns instead of the two rather useless 6" range pistols you have to replace the rifle with on the vox guys, if you can live with always having to keep both squads within 6" of the Prime.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 22:30:04


Post by: NenkotaMoon


Did we lose blob?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 22:35:44


Post by: Trickstick


 Aaranis wrote:
Hey guys, I'm a Mechanicus player that was looking forward for 8th Ed. so I can finally buy the Start Collecting Scions because I absolutely love the models and their capacities, now that they're scatter-free I really want to use them, however finding a loadout with them is a nightmare. At first I was looking on using the 5 Scions as anti-tank with two Meltaguns via the Taurox Prime, backed by the Lord Commissar, and the Tempestor with Command Rod as support to deep-striking Command Squad full of plasma to make them reroll their 1s to hit and then to wound while supercharged. But now that we've been discussing it a bit on the Mechanicus thread it looks like the weakness of our army is dealing with hordes, so I had another idea. Deepstriking Tempestor Prime + Command squad, full of Hot-Shot volley guns, with the same orders. 16 shots at S4, AP -1 at 24" range. I love picturing the paratroopers deploying their miniguns atop a building to rain death from above. As for the other 5 Scions I don't know, I guess I'd give them two Meltaguns or leave them as they are. I'm not sure if the Taurox Prime is a great asset or not, on one hand it's fast and can equip a 20 shots Gatling Cannon + some other weapons, but on the other hand I wonder if Deepstriking is not a better option ? At least no one can blow them up this way.

What are your thoughts on this ?


Hmmm, Scions for anti-horde? I mean, it could work, I hadn't really thought about it. Guard don't really need anti-horde with frfsrf and lasguns, so I always though of Scions as taking out key, hard targets or being backfield menaces.

First thing, volley guns are not a good deep striking weapon as they are heavy. This gives them -1 to hit, as deep striking counts as movement. Maybe grenade launchers, although frag grenades are only str 3 so are not great against the like or Orks. You are probably better off deploying them in defensive positions with volley guns instead of deep striking, to get the most out of the heavy weapon. A squad of 10 with 4 volley guns can put out a lot of shots, maybe even frfsrf to double the normal hot shot fire. I would have to calculate if the double lasgun or reroll 1s order was better, no idea.

The Taurox with gatling would be a great anti-horde unit, although I am always loathe to buy a transport and not use it as one. I guess you could deploy it next to a gunline volley squad and use it to run away as needed, or if the way is clear then hop in and go grab an objective.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 22:38:54


Post by: SonsofVulkan


Aside from the mortar teams, I think Manticors are the next best Heavy for buck


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 22:56:38


Post by: Aaranis


 Trickstick wrote:

Hmmm, Scions for anti-horde? I mean, it could work, I hadn't really thought about it. Guard don't really need anti-horde with frfsrf and lasguns, so I always though of Scions as taking out key, hard targets or being backfield menaces.

First thing, volley guns are not a good deep striking weapon as they are heavy. This gives them -1 to hit, as deep striking counts as movement. Maybe grenade launchers, although frag grenades are only str 3 so are not great against the like or Orks. You are probably better off deploying them in defensive positions with volley guns instead of deep striking, to get the most out of the heavy weapon. A squad of 10 with 4 volley guns can put out a lot of shots, maybe even frfsrf to double the normal hot shot fire. I would have to calculate if the double lasgun or reroll 1s order was better, no idea.

The Taurox with gatling would be a great anti-horde unit, although I am always loathe to buy a transport and not use it as one. I guess you could deploy it next to a gunline volley squad and use it to run away as needed, or if the way is clear then hop in and go grab an objective.

Oh yeah wasn't sure about the Deepstrike still counting as a movement. Well they still hit on 4+ but I see the waste still. Yeah I'm conflicted as if I should buy the Start Collecting or just a Command Squad and 5 Scions. I guess I could deploy my Volley Gun squad in defensive positions, with the Scions in front to bubble a bit, maybe with some special weapons, and keep the Taurox Prime close to hop in to move positions if needed. I don't see anywhere that a vehicle can't move after having embarked units, is it legal ?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 22:57:53


Post by: Trickstick


 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Aside from the mortar teams, I think Manticors are the next best Heavy for buck


Was comparing the basilisk and manticore, I just don't see the need to take a basilisk. For 25pts you get double the shots and +1str, with the downside of not firing on turn 5. Most games are decided by turn 5 anyway, or at least doing 8d6 shots over 4 turns is better than 5d6 over 5.

If you take two or three manticores, it could be worth it to take a MoO. You get to reroll 1s for number of shots, and get a single use basilisk too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Aaranis wrote:
I don't see anywhere that a vehicle can't move after having embarked units, is it legal ?


Sure is, you just can't disembark after movement.

As for the start collecting box, looks nice. I don't know if you would want to use the Commissar much though. I guess you could use him as a fighting character. Is it still a good deal if you sit him out of games?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 23:15:21


Post by: Aaranis


 Trickstick wrote:


 Aaranis wrote:
I don't see anywhere that a vehicle can't move after having embarked units, is it legal ?


Sure is, you just can't disembark after movement.

As for the start collecting box, looks nice. I don't know if you would want to use the Commissar much though. I guess you could use him as a fighting character. Is it still a good deal if you sit him out of games?

Well the Commissar can limit the effects of Morale as well as filling up an HQ slot for my Detachments so there's that, he's a really good fighting character too, to a reasonable extent, I could use him to do an Heroic Intervention if I have any problems. He's also a source of Plasma shots too I guess.


The more I look at the Taurox Prime the more I consider its firepower with the right loadout, using him to clear up hordes so I can disembark Melta/Plasma guys looks like a nice idea too, I'll really have to play a few games to decide of the amount of anti-tank firepower I need in my army.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 23:28:25


Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


 Trickstick wrote:
 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Aside from the mortar teams, I think Manticors are the next best Heavy for buck


Was comparing the basilisk and manticore, I just don't see the need to take a basilisk. For 25pts you get double the shots and +1str, with the downside of not firing on turn 5. Most games are decided by turn 5 anyway, or at least doing 8d6 shots over 4 turns is better than 5d6 over 5.

If you take two or three manticores, it could be worth it to take a MoO. You get to reroll 1s for number of shots, and get a single use basilisk too.


Manticore also has T7, while Basilisk has T6.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 23:28:50


Post by: SonsofVulkan


 Trickstick wrote:
 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Aside from the mortar teams, I think Manticors are the next best Heavy for buck


Was comparing the basilisk and manticore, I just don't see the need to take a basilisk. For 25pts you get double the shots and +1str, with the downside of not firing on turn 5. Most games are decided by turn 5 anyway, or at least doing 8d6 shots over 4 turns is better than 5d6 over 5.

If you take two or three manticores, it could be worth it to take a MoO. You get to reroll 1s for number of shots, and get a single use basilisk too.



With how 8th ed is looking, game could be decided by bottom of turn 3 or 4 at the most. Turn 5, just use the depleted manticores to sit on objectives


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 23:32:58


Post by: Trickstick


 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
Manticore also has T7, while Basilisk has T6.


I guess that represents open-topped. I with that armoured sentinels were +1T...


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/01 23:57:01


Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


Math-hammering a bit, Basilisks average 2 wounds per turn on vehicles (T8 3+), while Manticores average about 3.1 wounds. So a Basilisk has to have 6 rounds of shooting to match a Manticore's damage output in 4 rounds.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 01:59:03


Post by: SonsofVulkan


 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
Math-hammering a bit, Basilisks average 2 wounds per turn on vehicles (T8 3+), while Manticores average about 3.1 wounds. So a Basilisk has to have 6 rounds of shooting to match a Manticore's damage output in 4 rounds.


In your math, did you factor in Ap-2?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 02:16:30


Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


 SonsofVulkan wrote:
 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
Math-hammering a bit, Basilisks average 2 wounds per turn on vehicles (T8 3+), while Manticores average about 3.1 wounds. So a Basilisk has to have 6 rounds of shooting to match a Manticore's damage output in 4 rounds.


In your math, did you factor in Ap-2?


Yes. I should be clear, however, that I'm listing wounds removed, not successful to-wound rolls (as each successful to-wound does an average of 2 damage). Manticores roll about 1.55 successful to-wounds while Basilisks manage only 1.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 05:58:05


Post by: axisofentropy


another perspective

[Thumb - Screenshot_20170602-002138.png]


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 06:13:22


Post by: Coyote81


I agree, I've been staring at all the autohitting weapons in various armies. Like the immolator for SoB, those do 2d6 by themselves.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 06:14:21


Post by: NenkotaMoon


 axisofentropy wrote:
another perspective


So what he is saying is blobs are nerfed? I thought they were buffed? Context?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NenkotaMoon wrote:
 axisofentropy wrote:
another perspective


So what he is saying is blobs are nerfed? I was told they were buffed? Context?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 06:18:05


Post by: Red Corsair


 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
 Trickstick wrote:
 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Aside from the mortar teams, I think Manticors are the next best Heavy for buck


Was comparing the basilisk and manticore, I just don't see the need to take a basilisk. For 25pts you get double the shots and +1str, with the downside of not firing on turn 5. Most games are decided by turn 5 anyway, or at least doing 8d6 shots over 4 turns is better than 5d6 over 5.

If you take two or three manticores, it could be worth it to take a MoO. You get to reroll 1s for number of shots, and get a single use basilisk too.


Manticore also has T7, while Basilisk has T6.


Another one of the horrible pricing problems. I like the basis of 8th VERY much and it was in dire need, but I really hope we are not waiting too long to get some points and rules readjusted. I hope as they introduce codexes, it both happens fairly quickly so armies don't languish and also that creep is no where near what it has been in the past.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 06:22:15


Post by: NenkotaMoon


No, what, im just gonna wait till the 17th. Someone tells me something is nerfed, someone tells me something is buffed. I really don't care anymore as it just is going crazy in my mind. Time for a break.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 07:27:04


Post by: Mr.Moe


Did anyone mathhammer the LR Guns yet? Even though everybody says that it should have double the shots, the exterminator autocannon looks quite tasty in my eyes!


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 07:51:15


Post by: Therion


Astra Militarum are looking good. Especially as if there's ever a problem regarding something, like, if you really, really, really need a counter-assault unit of some kind, you can fill that role with any <Imperial> unit.

I'm not sure I agree with that guy about Leman Russes and mech units though. The infantry units seem very points efficient. It's pretty easy to compare a Leman Russ to infantry, since both have toughness and wound values. One is vulnerable to multiwound weapons, while the other isn't, while both can still be taken down with hot-shot lasguns or whatever.

Likewise, a 17 point Heavy Flamer upgrade isn't exactly cheap. The flamer Russ is a 200+ point unit with just 12 wounds, and won't shoot much turn one. On the other hand, you could get a million plasma shots with those points with the Scions, and they'll always alpha strike whatever you want.

Manticore might be value for 133 points if you spend some command points sometimes in re-rolling that crucial 2D6, and get a re-rolls to hit for it. I benchmark vehicles to 100 point Razorbacks and less than 100 point Dakkafexes, but at least the Manticore has the advantage of not needing line of sight to the target.

The Taurox Prime with two hot-shot volley guns and the gatling cannon is a pretty interesting anti-infantry unit for 96 points. 10 wounds on a 3+ save T6, and shoots 28 times with a 3+ to hit at a decent enough range. I'm not sure if it's good enough to beat infantry for the same price, but at least it's not overpaying for wounds and toughness, and there isn't any RNG involved in how much you can shoot, and it's got a good ballistic skill.

Taurox Prime shooting at MEQ: 2.22 wounds from the gatling 1,77 wounds from volley guns for 3.90 total.
Razorback with twin AsC shooting at MEQ: 2,66 wounds. NOTE: S6 only wounds T4 on a 3+.

Taurox Prime beats the twin assault cannon Razorback against MEQ by over 30%, for less points.

Against T7 3+ units like Razorbacks, in this comparison, the Taurox really shines due to the to-wound mechanics. A S4 weapon is the same as a S6 weapon. Taurox would do 2,66 wounds total while the Razorback would do only 1,33 wounds. A Razorback shooting the Taurox back gets some help due to the T6, but it only raises the wounds amount to 2.

Upon short inspection, the Taurox Prime seems to be better than the twin assault cannon Razorback, for 4 less points.

Twin lascannons Razorback variant against T7 3+, 3.11 wounds. Again, the lascannon only wounds T7 on a 3+. It's enough to beat the gatling variant, but only by 0.5 wounds per turn funnily enough, and now it's 115 points vs 96, and there's a huge difference against non multiwound targets. The lascannons pull a bit further ahead against T8 however but the difference is still just one wound per shooting phase, for nearly 20 more points. The battle cannon Taurox Prime does LESS damage against Razorbacks than the gatling cannon variant (2.34 vs 2.66), for more points. That's how good S4 Heavy 20 is against T7.

I don't even need to do the math to know Taurox Primes completely destroy the heavy flamer Leman Russ point by point in firepower, and do it from a better range, while providing almost twice the wounds. And the T8 on the Leman Russ won't help you against many weapons. A S9 lascannon wounds both the Leman Russ and the Taurox on a 3+, and they have the same armour saves.

Now at this point I only need to figure out what Imperial unit does most damage to multiwound models, point by point, and at what kind of range and survivability can they do it from. In short, what beats the twin Lascannon Razorback (115 points) point by point, when shooting T7 3+ or T8 3+ with multiwounds. The heavy weapons squad beats it, naturally, in firepower (you get 4.79 lascannon guys for 115 points), but there's a big discrepancy in survivability.

I guess the rapid firing Plasma Scions will beat it, and if that's the case, there's no need to have lascannons anywhere. You'll just take anti-horde weapons, like the Taurox Prime (which actually does very well against tanks like we just demonstrated), or just men with lasguns if that mathhammers better, and plasmaguns.

Aerial dropping Tempestus Scions with mass plasma, Taurox Primes with gatlings, one Manticore for flavor and indirect fire, and a Culexus Assassin or two. Add HQ and infantry squads for a lot of bodies on the field. Yarrick might be able to do a pretty decent force multiplier bubble for the immobile elements of the army, but I haven't really looked at the HQs that much yet.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 09:59:24


Post by: Coyote81


@Therion For impmerial units that dish out serious multiwounds, the best I've found so far it the stormraven. It does come in at ~300pts (which is almost triple the cost) However it comes with a large amount of bonuses.

Twin Lascannon just like the Razorback, Stormstrike Missile Launcher that is arguably better then the Twin Las. And to finish, you take the Heavy Plasma Cannon. Doing 2d3 hits of plasma fury. This vehicle can hit whatever it wants with it's speed, have -1 to hit it and the topper, it will always hit on 3+ even if it moves and shoots, something the razorback suffers on, hitting on 4+ if it moves.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 10:07:18


Post by: Ragnar Blackmane


 axisofentropy wrote:
another perspective


I can't take that guy serious for his flamer Russ comment. Did he even calculate how many points that tank will be? If you are desperate for multiple flamers on a vehicle then just take a Hellhound, much cheaper, faster and in range much sooner.
Don't really see mech guard being back when a Chimera is 91+ points with the cheapest weapon loadout. Throwing more footslogging bodies at the problem is much more points efficient and last turn objective grabbing won't be a big problem with orders like move!move!move! (the Russ equivalent being even better) and teleporting Stormtroopers.

Yarrik seems good but is going to be sniper bait, but can't argue with the point cost, he is a beat stick in melee as well. Solid choice if you wanted to bring a lord commissar anyway and if you end up playing against Orks his buff becomes insane if you manage to keep your high rate of fire units near him.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 10:08:00


Post by: Therion


There was a problem in my math, I assumed lascannon to ignore the 3+ save, but it's only -3, meaning the gatling Taurox Prime comes actually BEATS a twin-lascannon Razorback for damage against T7 3+. It still loses against T8 3+, however, but not by much.

I haven't looked at the Stormraven, but it's hard to imagine that at that price it can beat the Plasma Scions or the Taurox, point by point. Model wise, sure, but then again, a Stormlord tank fully kitted out costs 558 points, and puts 13 wounds on T7 3+. But a bunch of Taurox Primes for the same cost would've done 15,5 wounds point by point.

Stormlord is actually pretty decent for a big flavor model. Park Yarrick behind it and it hits a lot more. And if you ever happen to play against Orks, and it re-rolls ALL misses, it's going to be ridiculous. But then again, so would the Taurox Primes, who by the way get 58 wounds for the same price as the Stormlord gets only 26. AND a lascannon wounds both on a 3+, and both have the same armour save. Most tough models got completely screwed in favour of light tanks and light monsters who offer a lot more bang for the buck. Light weapons too with high rates of fire are usually very efficient.

These are the holes in this edition, but hey, I kind of like those truck models, and I REALLY REALLY like stormtroopers, so good for me.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 10:36:42


Post by: Coyote81


 Therion wrote:
There was a problem in my math, I assumed lascannon to ignore the 3+ save, but it's only -3, meaning the Taurox Prime comes even closer to the twin lascannon Razorback, even against actual tanks (T7 3+ multiwound).

I haven't looked at the Stormraven, but it's hard to imagine that at that price it can beat the Plasma Scions or the Taurox, point by point. Model wise, sure, but then again, a Stormlord tank fully kitted out costs 558 points, and puts 13 wounds on T7 3+. But a bunch of Taurox Primes for the same cost would've done 15,5 wounds point by point.

Stormlord is actually pretty decent for a big flavor model. Park Yarrick behind it and it hits a lot more. And if you ever happen to play against Orks, and it re-rolls ALL misses, it's going to be ridiculous. But then again, so would the Taurox Primes, who by the way get 58 wounds for the same price as the Stormlord gets only 26. AND a lascannon wounds both on a 3+, and both have the same armour save. Most tough models got completely screwed in favour of light tanks and light monsters who offer a lot more bang for the buck. Light weapons too with high rates of fire are usually very efficient.

These are the holes in this edition, but hey, I kind of like those truck models, and I REALLY REALLY like stormtroopers, so good for me.


Sometimes you have to take the more firepower in one models vs higher number of slightly more efficient models due to multiple reason.

-Battlefield mobility, bringing 8 Taurox Primes and actually being able to bring all that firepower to bear on the targets that need it is a questionable venture more often then not. I can tell you for sure, the stormraven will put it's shots where you want it, 3x razorbacks not so much.

-Detachment slots. You can only bring a taurox for each other slot, so this will slowly hamper your list building.

-Tempestus in reserves is also limited to half you units.


My math might be off, but a Stormraven with the kit I have (not including hurricane bolters) does 7.41 wounds to a T7 3+ per turn.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 12:38:04


Post by: SonsofVulkan


 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
 Trickstick wrote:
 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Aside from the mortar teams, I think Manticors are the next best Heavy for buck


Was comparing the basilisk and manticore, I just don't see the need to take a basilisk. For 25pts you get double the shots and +1str, with the downside of not firing on turn 5. Most games are decided by turn 5 anyway, or at least doing 8d6 shots over 4 turns is better than 5d6 over 5.

If you take two or three manticores, it could be worth it to take a MoO. You get to reroll 1s for number of shots, and get a single use basilisk too.


Manticore also has T7, while Basilisk has T6.


Reason I wouldnt purchase a Basilisk right now is because I'm still waiting for forge world to release the points for artillery carriage(earth shaker). Why pay 108 for basilisk if the arty carriage is 50-60% of that right?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 12:53:40


Post by: Polonius


 Coyote81 wrote:

-Detachment slots. You can only bring a taurox for each other slot, so this will slowly hamper your list building.

-Tempestus in reserves is also limited to half you units.


My reading of the rules is that you can take a dedicated transport for every other choice. They are no longer tied to specific units, which means that in a Brigade detachment, you can bring six scion squads, three primes for orders, and then drop nine Tauroxes if you wanted to! You can start the Taurox on the ground, and deepstrike all of the scions.

Toss in three heavy weapon squads, three sentinels as a tax, conscripts for bubble wrap, and commissars to hold the line, and you have an army with an obscene amount of firepower.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 12:58:12


Post by: Therion


 Polonius wrote:
 Coyote81 wrote:

-Detachment slots. You can only bring a taurox for each other slot, so this will slowly hamper your list building.

-Tempestus in reserves is also limited to half you units.


My reading of the rules is that you can take a dedicated transport for every other choice. They are no longer tied to specific units, which means that in a Brigade detachment, you can bring six scion squads, three primes for orders, and then drop nine Tauroxes if you wanted to! You can start the Taurox on the ground, and deepstrike all of the scions.

Toss in three heavy weapon squads, three sentinels as a tax, conscripts for bubble wrap, and commissars to hold the line, and you have an army with an obscene amount of firepower.


Yes. In fact, you can take a unit of 5 Marines, and for that selection you get any dedicated transport, for example a Taurox Prime. It really doesn't matter. A Culexus Assassin is a choice, so again, for him, we get a Taurox Prime.

To the other guy: I don't agree with the focus fire being a problem, at all. There will be plenty of targets to shoot at, and yes, naturally they can't focus as well as a single model could, but they are better in more than just superior firepower. They have superior survivability. These Gatling Tauroxes only pay 9.6 points per T6 3+ wound, and bring very points efficient firepower to the table. Stack them together and park Yarrick behind them so he can't be targeted or sniped (because he can't even be seen), and we got a nice little firebase.

Scions alpha strike on one flank of the enemy, or if the enemy is coming to us, near our firebase. Culexus alpha strikes too because of the assassin rule.

And if you want something that can fight in close combat, and you're not confident that you can always shoot everything that's coming to you, and fall back with units that are in combat and then shoot with others, take an assault unit. It doesn't need to be Astra Militarum/Tempestus either. Any Imperial unit will do. As long as it's points efficient, I'm game.

I just ordered 6 'Start Collecting: Militarum Tempestus' boxes. What a bargain, as everything goes straight into a tournament army, and there's like 40% free stuff in there, and the models are beautiful too. The truck needs some conversion work though

PS: I like your list too, Polonius.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 13:07:37


Post by: labmouse42


 Therion wrote:
I guess the rapid firing Plasma Scions will beat it, and if that's the case, there's no need to have lascannons anywhere. You'll just take anti-horde weapons, like the Taurox Prime (which actually does very well against tanks like we just demonstrated), or just men with lasguns if that mathhammers better, and plasmaguns.
My mathhammer has been showing the same. Taurox primes are the way to go. Point for point they dish out so much more damage than Chimera's it's not even funny. Scions are also insanely good. The ability to deploy from grav-chute really helps them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Coyote81 wrote:

-Battlefield mobility, bringing 8 Taurox Primes and actually being able to bring all that firepower to bear on the targets that need it is a questionable venture more often then not. I can tell you for sure, the stormraven will put it's shots where you want it, 3x razorbacks not so much.

-Detachment slots. You can only bring a taurox for each other slot, so this will slowly hamper your list building.

-Tempestus in reserves is also limited to half you units..
How many primes you bring depends on your points.
I, personally, would not load up on tons of them. I plan on fielding 4-6 of them.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 13:09:52


Post by: Therion


 labmouse42 wrote:
 Therion wrote:
I guess the rapid firing Plasma Scions will beat it, and if that's the case, there's no need to have lascannons anywhere. You'll just take anti-horde weapons, like the Taurox Prime (which actually does very well against tanks like we just demonstrated), or just men with lasguns if that mathhammers better, and plasmaguns.
My mathhammer has been showing the same. Taurox primes are the way to go. Point for point they dish out so much more damage than Chimera's it's not even funny. Scions are also insanely good. The ability to deploy from grav-chute really helps them.


Yup. They'll never get shot before they get to do their damage, and they'll always get to rapid fire, and there's no randomness involved. It's incredible, really.

It's funny how I/we stumbled on this Taurox Prime by simply doing the math and testing. The way they changed the to-wound table affects so many things. T6 is the same as T8 against S9. S4 is the same as S6 against T7. Everything plays into the Taurox's advantage.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 13:14:00


Post by: labmouse42


 Therion wrote:
It's funny how I/we stumbled on this Taurox Prime by simply doing the math and testing. The way they changed the to-wound table affects so many things. T6 is the same as T8 against S9. S4 is the same as S6 against T7. Everything plays into the Taurox's advantage.
It's the 3+ shooting that really helps. Don't forget that SB upgrade is only 2 points, and is a must-have.
Sadly my Chimera's are going to have to go the way of the non-playable shelf. A dual HF chimera runs over 100 points and only delivers 7 hits at an 8" range. It's only advantage over the Taurox is +1 toughness and the ability to transport 2 more models.
In comparison, the Taurox Prime is faster, is cheaper, and has more firepower.

Edit :
On the subject of Hot-shot volley guns. They actually do more damage against Rhinos than a PG on standard charge. When out of rapid fire range, they do dramatically more damage.
The same applies to MEQ targets. The hot shot volley guns do more damage due to the number of shots.
It's food for thought. Some hot-shot volley guns in your Scion squads might be a good addition to just a horde of PGs. They also have a 24" range as well.

Edit 2 :
A funny thought. You can deploy your commisars/company commander in the Taurox Prime and grav-chute your scions. You can then move your Taurox Prime up on turn 1 to be near your squads. On turn 2 deploy out the characters to support your squads. This also puts your primes near your squads in case you need to use them to actually move. The 14" move is really helpful for getting the squads where they need to be.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 14:09:47


Post by: vipoid


Any thoughts on running an infantry-only IG army?

- Loads of Infantry with Lascannons, Missiles, Autocannons, Plasma, and maybe Flamers and Meltas.
- Perhaps some HWSs with Lascannons, Missiles or Autocannons.
- SWSs with Meltas or Flamers.
- Company Commanders and Platoon Commanders to hand out orders.
- Yarrick or other Commissars to keep them in line.
- Some Storm Troopers dropping into their backlines with Meltas or Plasma (perhaps accompanied by the Tempestor guy).

Any thoughts or suggestions?


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 14:16:00


Post by: Therion


labmouse42: We're in agreement of all the maximally points efficient stuff, but what do you think about the 'cool' stuff, meaning, Knights and super-heavy tanks, and other tanks? Have you found any of them to be even remotely competitive?

I briefly looked at the Baneblade variants, and the Stormlord seemed decent enough due to the sheer amount of shots, but it pales in comparison to the trucks point by point both in offense and defense.



Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 14:18:37


Post by: Trickstick


 vipoid wrote:
Any thoughts on running an infantry-only IG army?

- Loads of Infantry with Lascannons, Missiles, Autocannons, Plasma, and maybe Flamers and Meltas.
- Perhaps some HWSs with Lascannons, Missiles or Autocannons.
- SWSs with Meltas or Flamers.
- Company Commanders and Platoon Commanders to hand out orders.
- Yarrick or other Commissars to keep them in line.
- Some Storm Troopers dropping into their backlines with Meltas or Plasma (perhaps accompanied by the Tempestor guy).

Any thoughts or suggestions?


You would have to rely on rough riders to use up fast attack slots if you still wanted to fill a brigade.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 14:21:31


Post by: Polonius


 vipoid wrote:
Any thoughts on running an infantry-only IG army?

- Loads of Infantry with Lascannons, Missiles, Autocannons, Plasma, and maybe Flamers and Meltas.
- Perhaps some HWSs with Lascannons, Missiles or Autocannons.
- SWSs with Meltas or Flamers.
- Company Commanders and Platoon Commanders to hand out orders.
- Yarrick or other Commissars to keep them in line.
- Some Storm Troopers dropping into their backlines with Meltas or Plasma (perhaps accompanied by the Tempestor guy).

Any thoughts or suggestions?


I think it's the obvious starting point. Scions are the most cost effective and reliable source of damage in the list, there's no reason not to maximize those. LRBTs seem underwhelming, and chimeras are very pricy for what they do. Not providing any multi wound models (well, not counting characters or heavy weapon teams) will suck the life out of opposing lascannons and meltas.

I think we'll see conscripts for bubble wrap (first turn charges are real), and SWS or command squads for counter attacks, but all infantry looks like it might be very strong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Trickstick wrote:
You would have to rely on rough riders to use up fast attack slots if you still wanted to fill a brigade.


Riders don't seem bad now. Sentinels are still the cheapest FA if you just want to pay the tax. The problem is that they actually cost more now, while the multilaser is now deeply mediocre (instead of being fair to middling).


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 14:28:31


Post by: Biophysical


 Therion wrote:


It's funny how I/we stumbled on this Taurox Prime by simply doing the math and testing. The way they changed the to-wound table affects so many things. T6 is the same as T8 against S9. S4 is the same as S6 against T7. Everything plays into the Taurox's advantage.


I hadn't looked at offensive math yet, but I had been thinking from a defensive point of view, light armor is the optimal support vehicle for primarily infantry based armies. It's about as strong against heavy AT as a Russ, and the weapon types that are strong against it are often anti-infantry weapons, so you get an element of target saturation.

It's interesting with the new rules how much better the Prime is over the stock Taurox. The main thing the regular one has is that it can carry any AM infantry, while the Prime is limited to Tempestus and Commissars.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 14:33:26


Post by: Polonius


Four autocannon shots will do some work, but I'm not sure that range is as big a deal as it's been in past editions. Four decent shots is still worse than 20 S4 shots...


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 14:42:29


Post by: labmouse42


 vipoid wrote:
Any thoughts on running an infantry-only IG army?

- Loads of Infantry with Lascannons, Missiles, Autocannons, Plasma, and maybe Flamers and Meltas.
- Perhaps some HWSs with Lascannons, Missiles or Autocannons.
- SWSs with Meltas or Flamers.
- Company Commanders and Platoon Commanders to hand out orders.
- Yarrick or other Commissars to keep them in line.
- Some Storm Troopers dropping into their backlines with Meltas or Plasma (perhaps accompanied by the Tempestor guy).

Any thoughts or suggestions?
Yes, quite a bit. Here are two different lists that show examples of this.


Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition? @ 2017/06/02 14:47:28


Post by: Trickstick


Rough riders still only have a 45% ish chance to make a 9" charge, rerolling the lowest die with a CP. Not greatly reliable at outflanking charges.