They're sort of borderline competitively useful in my mind, but now that they're more inconvenient to field without the combined squads rule, in terms of morale and orders, I'm struggling to see the point of them. If I need heavy weapons, I'll probably just take Heavy Weapon Squads instead seeing how they're obscenely cheap. I've always used my infantry like bubblewrap for the fire support elements with the strict purpose that the hope is if I get attacked head on with infantry they can peel them off and not have to worry about morale. I think with the changes we're seeing the ultra-multiplied Conscript blob with an officer, priest and commissar does this job better now.
What time will tell is basically if they can be made useful by having so many small units, so you can go about using the fight phase to stop enemy melee units from getting near your lines. Then you can start peppering them with another layer of squads if you go for some sort of staggered deployment.
Okay, here's my counterargument:
- Firstly, I don't see the loss of combined squads as being a huge detriment to them. There are downsides, sure, but there are also a lot of upsides - not least that you have far more control over where each unit moves and fires.
- What's more, Company Commanders are now half the price they were in 7th and can no longer be sniped by normal shooting. Not only that, but the FoC make it easy to bring several of them. Commissars are likewise cheap and also untargetable by non-sniper weapons, and now affect units in a large aura around them.
- Heavy Weapons are more efficient in terms of damage, but also vastly more vulnerable - as every casualty has to be a precious heavy weapon. They're also less rewarding to field in terms of both CPs and HQ slots.
- Meanwhile, in order to get to the Heavy/Special weapons in an infantry squad, you have to go through the entire squad. This also makes them much better at holding objectives and such - as you have far more expendable bodies to use.
- What's more, one of the biggest weaknesses in 7th has been removed - now each infantry squad can fire its lasguns, heavy weapon and special weapon at separate targets.
- Plasmaguns and plasma pistols are both very good and very cheap.
In essence, they provide bodies that are almost as cheap as conscripts, whilst having better BS and full access to special and heavy weapons.
(It could well be that I'm overvaluing them, but on paper they certainly seem very good to me. Maybe I'm blinded by my joy that infantry guard may finally be playable again. )
I overvalue them too, but I'm an old 5th edition powerblob player. I'm loading up on pistols and plasmaguns and shoot/charge/retreat/repeat until I'm blue in the face.
They're sort of borderline competitively useful in my mind, but now that they're more inconvenient to field without the combined squads rule, in terms of morale and orders, I'm struggling to see the point of them. If I need heavy weapons, I'll probably just take Heavy Weapon Squads instead seeing how they're obscenely cheap. I've always used my infantry like bubblewrap for the fire support elements with the strict purpose that the hope is if I get attacked head on with infantry they can peel them off and not have to worry about morale. I think with the changes we're seeing the ultra-multiplied Conscript blob with an officer, priest and commissar does this job better now.
What time will tell is basically if they can be made useful by having so many small units, so you can go about using the fight phase to stop enemy melee units from getting near your lines. Then you can start peppering them with another layer of squads if you go for some sort of staggered deployment.
Okay, here's my counterargument:
- Firstly, I don't see the loss of combined squads as being a huge detriment to them. There are downsides, sure, but there are also a lot of upsides - not least that you have far more control over where each unit moves and fires.
- What's more, Company Commanders are now half the price they were in 7th and can no longer be sniped by normal shooting. Not only that, but the FoC make it easy to bring several of them. Commissars are likewise cheap and also untargetable by non-sniper weapons, and now affect units in a large aura around them.
- Heavy Weapons are more efficient in terms of damage, but also vastly more vulnerable - as every casualty has to be a precious heavy weapon. They're also less rewarding to field in terms of both CPs and HQ slots.
- Meanwhile, in order to get to the Heavy/Special weapons in an infantry squad, you have to go through the entire squad. This also makes them much better at holding objectives and such - as you have far more expendable bodies to use.
- What's more, one of the biggest weaknesses in 7th has been removed - now each infantry squad can fire its lasguns, heavy weapon and special weapon at separate targets.
- Plasmaguns and plasma pistols are both very good and very cheap.
In essence, they provide bodies that are almost as cheap as conscripts, whilst having better BS and full access to special and heavy weapons.
(It could well be that I'm overvaluing them, but on paper they certainly seem very good to me. Maybe I'm blinded by my joy that infantry guard may finally be playable again. )
You make a particularly good point about plasma guns/plasma pistols. I'm not too impressed about taking the other special weapons with infantry squads but that amount of plasma making for a bargain 52 pt squad sounds like a pretty solid way of running them if you take a few squads. I'll have to playtest that at some point to see if Infantry Squads are as inconvenient as I think but its definitely promising.
It might be the case that a balance of conscripts with just a Commissar as a meatshield (seeing as how the ultra-multiplied blob is fairly all out), backed up by a second line of tooled out, cheap but effective infantry squads that can pour plasma and more accurate FRFSRF lasgun fire in as the Conscripts retreat is a good way to run Guard infantry.
You make a particularly good point about plasma guns/plasma pistols. I'm not too impressed about taking the other special weapons with infantry squads but that amount of plasma making for a bargain 52 pt squad sounds like a pretty solid way of running them if you take a few squads. I'll have to playtest that at some point to see if Infantry Squads are as inconvenient as I think but its definitely promising.
It's a shame the other weapons are so bad. I used to really love flamers but there doesn't seem much point to them now.
It might be the case that a balance of conscripts with just a Commissar as a meatshield (seeing as how the ultra-multiplied blob is fairly all out), backed up by a second line of tooled out, cheap but effective infantry squads that can pour plasma and more accurate FRFSRF lasgun fire in as the Conscripts retreat is a good way to run Guard infantry.
Personally, I'm going to try without the conscripts and just use a load of infantry squads. No idea if it'll work, but hopefully it will at least be fun.
1.) A Heavy Bolter, and the guys who carry it, cost about 11 points in. Heavy weapon squad. Harker's Heavy Bolter, Payback, is assault, AP2, and BS4. Maybe one thinks the HWS version is overdosed at 11, but let's be conservative and say Harker's shooting is woth about 10 points.
2.) A Company Commander is worth 30 points, and can put out 2 orders. Harker can put out an order equivalent for each unit in range, so he has a high ceiling, but less flexibility than the Commander.
3.) Harker works on vehicles. Orders work on infantry units.
4.) You can stack Harker's ability with orders. Each unit can only receive one order, so you get re-rolls on 1s from Harker, then another order from an officer.
lash92 wrote: I don't think that flamers are that bad. They cost the same like plasma guns and auto hit (even in overwatch).
So maybe give them to your frontline against assault based armys.
It's possible to mitigate the flamer overwatch pretty easily. All he needs to do is move his unit to 8.1" away from your closest model. There's a 58.33% chance he's going to roll a 7 or higher on 2d6.
I mean, your opponent risks losing his assault, but he's also the one who gets to make that choice against you.
1.) A Heavy Bolter, and the guys who carry it, cost about 11 points in. Heavy weapon squad. Harker's Heavy Bolter, Payback, is assault, AP2, and BS4. Maybe one thinks the HWS version is overdosed at 11, but let's be conservative and say Harker's shooting is woth about 10 points.
2.) A Company Commander is worth 30 points, and can put out 2 orders. Harker can put out an order equivalent for each unit in range, so he has a high ceiling, but less flexibility than the Commander.
3.) Harker works on vehicles. Orders work on infantry units.
4.) You can stack Harker's ability with orders. Each unit can only receive one order, so you get re-rolls on 1s from Harker, then another order from an officer.
Harker seems damn good. He does some work on his own with Payback, and his rerolling ones bubble can work on multiple units, or units that aren't eligible for orders, most notably superheavies....
lash92 wrote: I don't think that flamers are that bad. They cost the same like plasma guns and auto hit (even in overwatch).
So maybe give them to your frontline against assault based armys.
It's possible to mitigate the flamer overwatch pretty easily. All he needs to do is move his unit to 8.1" away from your closest model. There's a 58.33% chance he's going to roll a 7 or higher on 2d6.
I mean, your opponent risks losing his assault, but he's also the one who gets to make that choice against you.
But it wouldn't matter if he rolled a 7. 7+1=8, not 8.1. The relevant odds are those for rolling an 8 or higher.
lash92 wrote: I don't think that flamers are that bad. They cost the same like plasma guns and auto hit (even in overwatch).
So maybe give them to your frontline against assault based armys.
It's possible to mitigate the flamer overwatch pretty easily. All he needs to do is move his unit to 8.1" away from your closest model. There's a 58.33% chance he's going to roll a 7 or higher on 2d6.
I mean, your opponent risks losing his assault, but he's also the one who gets to make that choice against you.
But it wouldn't matter if he rolled a 7. 7+1=8, not 8.1. The relevant odds are those for rolling an 8 or higher.
Yes. You're right. I'm doing too many things at once. 41% or so then. It's still something you can mitigate if you're driven to do so.
lash92 wrote: I don't think that flamers are that bad. They cost the same like plasma guns and auto hit (even in overwatch).
So maybe give them to your frontline against assault based armys.
It's possible to mitigate the flamer overwatch pretty easily. All he needs to do is move his unit to 8.1" away from your closest model. There's a 58.33% chance he's going to roll a 7 or higher on 2d6.
I mean, your opponent risks losing his assault, but he's also the one who gets to make that choice against you.
But it wouldn't matter if he rolled a 7. 7+1=8, not 8.1. The relevant odds are those for rolling an 8 or higher.
Yes. You're right. I'm doing too many things at once. 41% or so then. It's still something you can mitigate if you're driven to do so.
You could make the argument that if flamers cause the enemy to try longer charges and thus fail them more often, then they are worthwhile for that fact alone.
1.) A Heavy Bolter, and the guys who carry it, cost about 11 points in. Heavy weapon squad. Harker's Heavy Bolter, Payback, is assault, AP2, and BS4. Maybe one thinks the HWS version is overdosed at 11, but let's be conservative and say Harker's shooting is woth about 10 points.
2.) A Company Commander is worth 30 points, and can put out 2 orders. Harker can put out an order equivalent for each unit in range, so he has a high ceiling, but less flexibility than the Commander.
3.) Harker works on vehicles. Orders work on infantry units.
4.) You can stack Harker's ability with orders. Each unit can only receive one order, so you get re-rolls on 1s from Harker, then another order from an officer.
My problem with Harker is that it has to be Catachans. I dont have the models, and im sure my opponent will raise an eyebrow when i point at my Cadians and say: those are Catachans and can thus benefit from Harker.
Doctoralex wrote: My problem with Harker is that it has to be Catachans. I dont have the models, and im sure my opponent will raise an eyebrow when i point at my Cadians and say: those are Catachans and can thus benefit from Harker.
I have never seen this be a problem with anyone who wouldn't be a pain to play against for other reasons anyway.
You can can convert your own using cadian and scout bits.
The rule seems to be in place to prevent Creed, Kell, Pask, Straken and Harker all in one detachment.
My problem with Harker is that it has to be Catachans. I dont have the models, and im sure my opponent will raise an eyebrow when i point at my Cadians and say: those are Catachans and can thus benefit from Harker.
I have an older metal SM Scout model with heavy bolter that I use for my "Cadian Harker". He's a little smaller than a modern SM, and still large for a guardsman, so he's a pretty good size. No one's complained yet.
Doctoralex wrote: My problem with Harker is that it has to be Catachans. I dont have the models, and im sure my opponent will raise an eyebrow when i point at my Cadians and say: those are Catachans and can thus benefit from Harker.
I have never seen this be a problem with anyone who wouldn't be a pain to play against for other reasons anyway.
Ditto...tomorrow night I'm going to have a gaggle of necron warriors stand in for scions
vipoid wrote: Any thoughts on the other Special Characters?
If you like tanks Pask is still pretty nice.
He hits on 2+ and can give 2 orders. He also has the ability to order himself and other tank commanders.
I haven´t looked on the other characters yet.
Pask is is going to be essential to any gun-line guard army. If you think about it, as soon as recieve a -1 to hit (Harlequin star weavers, conceal, Venomthropes etc) the guard line becomes almost unless (hitting on 5/6). Pask on the other hand is hitting on 3s with a re-roll of 1.
vipoid wrote: Any thoughts on the other Special Characters?
Creed is a somewhat more effective Company Commander for more than twice the price, but he also brings with him 2 Command Points.
Kell is basically terrible, as re-rolls for morale most likely won't matter as long as you have enough Commissars, the additional order he grants to an officer can be resolved by just taking another officer and his bodyguard rule for Creed requires Creed in the first place.
Pask has been discussed and is probably good enough to warrant use.
Straken is quite fighty and gives every Catachan unit close to him an additional attack, but I don't think his close combat prowess is good enough compared to what he might face. I'm not sure enough about a close combat Guard list to actually claim whether he's good enough or not.
Harker seems good.
Yarrick is pretty cool, but suffers from the same problem as Harker. He's a little tougher (due having a chance not to die), deals less daamge, acts as a Commissar and grants re-rolls of 1/failed hits vs Orks. But he's also quite expensive and I think you would be better served by simply including even more characters.
Nork hits stuff hard. Might as well include him if you want to melee a lot.
Nonetheless, but most of them, I think you need to ask yourself the question: do I need this character, or would I be better served by simply taking more Company Commanders, Platoon Commanders or Commissars? Considering how many units we might need to order around and how cheap our generic characters are, I think I would prefer not using unique ones but none of them seem terrible except Kell. Then again, I play Death Korps and won't use them anyway unless that list is godawful.
I'm having a hard time getting my head around Straken. He is roughly the cost of a Company Commander + an Eviscerator Priest, and has roughly similar skills and bonuses to those two models put together.
In editions past, his close combat ability has been formidable. Less so this edition, and it's an edition where close combat matters that much less, as your guys can fall back from combat while their friends shoot at the enemy. With no blobs, and no bonuses for charging, his +1 attack bubble is just not making any guard squads that significant. Maybe there's something to doubling him up with a Priest to get +2 attacks on squads in 6". 3 attack Guardsmen aren't doing a whole lot, though. Maybe it's enough to help squads finish off enemies that they charge to limit swings back, but I'm skeptical.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Straken is crazy tough compared to regular officers, however. 3+ save and T4 woth an extra sound is major, but how often are you getting officers in combat? I honestly don't know.
I imagine Yarrick and Harker are useful for situations where you can't use orders to give things rerolls on ones like superheavies (I doubt they can keep up with Hellhounds/variants.) or just a bunch of units. It would be pretty inefficient to order 3-5 heavy weapons teams directly (or you could order them to also reroll 1s on wounds).
vipoid wrote: Any thoughts on the other Special Characters?
If you like tanks Pask is still pretty nice.
He hits on 2+ and can give 2 orders. He also has the ability to order himself and other tank commanders.
I haven´t looked on the other characters yet.
Pask is is going to be essential to any gun-line guard army. If you think about it, as soon as recieve a -1 to hit (Harlequin star weavers, conceal, Venomthropes etc) the guard line becomes almost unless (hitting on 5/6). Pask on the other hand is hitting on 3s with a re-roll of 1.
I do not believe pask can order himself, since it says he can only order other characters. I believe the the best tank loadouts is a tank commander with buddy, both with demolishers and flamers, due to heavy bolter sponsons getting -1 to hit when moving. I wont use pask since i believe harker us a better force multiplier.
vipoid wrote: Any thoughts on the other Special Characters?
If you like tanks Pask is still pretty nice.
He hits on 2+ and can give 2 orders. He also has the ability to order himself and other tank commanders.
I haven´t looked on the other characters yet.
Pask is is going to be essential to any gun-line guard army. If you think about it, as soon as recieve a -1 to hit (Harlequin star weavers, conceal, Venomthropes etc) the guard line becomes almost unless (hitting on 5/6). Pask on the other hand is hitting on 3s with a re-roll of 1.
I do not believe pask can order himself, since it says he can only order other characters. I believe the the best tank loadouts is a tank commander with buddy, both with demolishers and flamers, due to heavy bolter sponsons getting -1 to hit when moving. I wont use pask since i believe harker us a better force multiplier.
Well yes, it is certainly implied that he cannot order himself, with the Note that Knight Commander Pask can issue orders to other Cadian Leman Russ Characters-line, but nothing expressly forbids him from ordering himself as well. We might get some clarification on this issue later on, but you are free to play as you wish.
IG players of 8th - what do you feel are the weakness' of your faction?
What should an opposing player try to capitalize on if they want to win a battle against you?
Between Conscripts (with orders), Scions, HWT, and all the quality vehicles running around - it's hard to try and deal with everything.
If you manage to make it to melee - the IG just fall back, and shoot your face in.
Just trying to figure out what to be doing as an Ork player, when the IG can field more models and more firepower at the same points cost; can't outshoot them, and horde armies just get decimated by Manticore/Wyvern/HWT, and Conscripts (50-200 shots is no joke).
Even if you kill a lot of them, morale kill isn't an option since the Commissar turns it into 1d3 dead, at most.
Lack of snipers makes it that much harder to take out the crucial backline characters as well.
Many of our most cost efficient units such as infantry squads bloat our drop count. We also need a lot of characters that bloat our drop count unless we buy expensive Chimeras.
I am struggling to find reliable and efficient tank killing other than melta guns on scions.
Pask with MM and Lascannon is pretty good but expensive. He would be a big target for your opponent and after a good amount of wounds, if you move him he is hitting on 4's.
Lascannon Heavy Weapon teams seem okay, but take a good amount of backfield support.
Anyone have any advice on how to get some good, reliable, and cost effective tank killing? I have been building towards a more mobile and mechanized AM, using Vets in Chimeras with a conscript blob to screen for my backline units like Manticores and Mortar HWTs
Evillain09 wrote: Lascannon Heavy Weapon teams seem okay, but take a good amount of backfield support.
You can put lascannons in your basic infantry squads. With split fire, you no longer have to worry about wasting the lasguns. This gives you a lot of ablative wounds and also lets you fire lascannons one at a time, so you are not wasting them through overkill.
I am trying to go a more mobile, mech build. I also like using Vets for their firepower. But I could see that being pretty good with charchater support.
The Tarux Prime seems pretty good. Missle launcer and 2 Autocannons. A little pricey, but a lot of firepower starting at BS3
I sort of like the idea of this core (inspired from Frontline):
A lot of mech firepower and then you compliment the HF's with Vets with plasma/melta and scions doing the same thing. You need to protect against alpha strikes and probably support with an assualt unit (Bullgyrns). Has anyone here tested this sort of mech, fast and hard hitting startegies?
Evillain09 wrote: I am trying to go a more mobile, mech build. I also like using Vets for their firepower. But I could see that being pretty good with charchater support.
Sure it´s a lot of firepower but imo too expensive. For so many points you can nearly add a LR.
I'm pretty sure that mathematically, the gatling gun and volley guns on the Taurox Prime are more dangerous agaidn t more targets, and a lot cheaper. Reduced range, but I think that's okay.
I really think the flexibility of the ML make it worth it. Also AM have access to super cheap infantry killing in dirt cheap flammers and Mortars. The one thing that bugs me about LRs is that they are BS4. When you move you need 5s to hit with side and front weapon. The Prime's defense is weaker, but it is more accurate and it's weapons are good.
I will have to try things out, but on paper the ML, 2xAC combo seems really good in a TAC list that can support it with screens and anti-infantry.
I'm still trying to figure out if I can build a list around a Shadowsword. The volcano cannon + 4 lascannons seem like a good enough way to remove 1-2 vehicles per turn, but I feel so many extra points are going into trying to protect it further and/or profit from the various auras around it that my army would mostly end up stationary and unable to actually take objectives even after I've shot the enemy off them.
I think that is a good way to look at the Baneblades. You don't want to move them becuase they still get punished by the -1. So you have to bring conscripts and other screens.
I want to play a fast more mobile army, so I am leaning towards our transports/Devil Dog variants/ Scions. I personally think HF on Chimeras are really good. You have to get every wound off the Chimera before it stops doing dmg, and the overwatch is great. It's expensive but in my mind effective.
I think static armies need to fine tune their lists and think a lot about positioning, the HQ buffs, and how defend against melee armies.
Sorry quoted the wrong sentence. I was talking about the Prime with Missle Launcher and 2 x Autocanon
Evillain09 wrote: The one thing that bugs me about LRs is that they are BS4. When you move you need 5s to hit with side and front weapon. The Prime's defense is weaker, but it is more accurate and it's weapons are good.
But the LRs accuracy can still be improved with tank orders.
Evillain09 wrote: I think that is a good way to look at the Baneblades. You don't want to move them becuase they still get punished by the -1. So you have to bring conscripts and other screens.
I want to play a fast more mobile army, so I am leaning towards our transports/Devil Dog variants/ Scions. I personally think HF on Chimeras are really good. You have to get every wound off the Chimera before it stops doing dmg, and the overwatch is great. It's expensive but in my mind effective.
I think static armies need to fine tune their lists and think a lot about positioning, the HQ buffs, and how defend against melee armies.
I think flamer costs went up too much this edition. They're good, but not that good, although maybe for vehicles that want to be that far forward for delivering troops, I could see it? I could also see it on a Hellhammer/other shortish range super-heavy to provide anti-melee overwatch protection, but the -1BS for moving is so painful.
On the other hand, you often want your baneblades in combat, since it means your opponents can't shoot at you, but you can shoot at them. Which is a pretty solid reason to keep moving and just deal with the -1 BS
Yeah I have read a lot of people saying HFs are over priced, but they auto hit, get around - to hit, rend, auto hits on overwatch and never degrade on vehicles. So I think you get the value.
I think the major thing about using them on vehicles is to build your list around it. Don't just throw it on a random vehicle. If your list is aggressive and uses transports and can threaten flanks than I think that's where flammers make sense and will shine.
Evillain09 wrote: From Tank commanders, which most likely means taking Pask. I see your point, but that also gets expensive.You can almost take 2 Primes for a Pask.
Thats right, but Pask gives you even the ability to hit on +2 with rerolling 1´s and the ability to order another tank.
I really also like the Prime but I just think that this load out is overkill, I prefer the Gatling Canon + Hot-Shot-Volley Gun against infantry.
For the points of the ML variant you could take 2 HWT with Lascanons, i guess that´s also quite effective for tank hunting
Pask fills in the -1 BS problem that a guard army can face. In terms of numbers, the primes are slightly better but Pask is significantly less random - if you need 29 S5 shots, that's what you'll get.
Evillain09 wrote: Yeah I have read a lot of people saying HFs are over priced, but they auto hit, get around - to hit, rend, auto hits on overwatch and never degrade on vehicles. So I think you get the value.
I think the major thing about using them on vehicles is to build your list around it. Don't just throw it on a random vehicle. If your list is aggressive and uses transports and can threaten flanks than I think that's where flammers make sense and will shine.
I was specifically talking about flamers. HF at least have that S5 and -1 going for them and overwatch from 8 is pretty murderous. Regular flamers are barely better than non-overcharged plasma against infantry and worse against all else.
So, reading through this thread I am just wondering how much I am hurting my army by not having any snipers. Are Command Squad snipers going to be worth it?
Thinking of having three snipers and a medic in two of my four command squads, and running triple Plasma Gun and medic in the other two.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And, looking back on some people's comments about Yarrick, he grants all friendly Astra Militarum units within 6" the ability to reroll 1's when attacking, it becomes rerolling ANY failed to hit rolls against Orks. I am very excited to use Yarrick with three infantry squads, it will definitely make the Bring it Down! order go that much further.
That, and I have always had a soft spot in my heart for the crazy old retiree kicking ass and taking names.
I think snipers are overrated since they're single shot and will have trouble putting wounds on anything major. Against IG though, I could see someone getting lucky and sniping a key commisar right before they unload one a blob or two.
Mavnas wrote: I think snipers are overrated since they're single shot and will have trouble putting wounds on anything major. Against IG though, I could see someone getting lucky and sniping a key commisar right before they unload one a blob or two.
I think Tyrannids have got a similar buff rule like IG. (something called synapses if I recall correctly?)
If you want to add some snipers I would take a look at the Vindicare. He looks not to shabby for 90pts.
Mavnas wrote: I think snipers are overrated since they're single shot and will have trouble putting wounds on anything major. Against IG though, I could see someone getting lucky and sniping a key commisar right before they unload one a blob or two.
Word on the street is that 2 Vindicares is a thing now. Ratlings are good but it all depends on what type of system you're playing in (ETC vs ITC etc), as they are an easy kill point.
Although unless you're investing heavily, snipers won't actually do that much (1-2 weak characters a game IF you can draw line of sight etc), what they are good at is forcing your opponent to play conservatively.
I'm uncertain if pask can issue orders to himself as well. Because under the "knight commander" ability it states the can issues orders to "other" cadian leman russ characters. I understand his profile both has leman russ and characters but it didn't say he could order himself.
tankboy145 wrote: I'm uncertain if pask can issue orders to himself as well. Because under the "knight commander" ability it states the can issues orders to "other" cadian leman russ characters. I understand his profile both has leman russ and characters but it didn't say he could order himself.
The main thing is that, unlike normal tank commanders, Pask never has the restriction on ordering characters in the first place. The wording of his rule is different.
tankboy145 wrote: I'm uncertain if pask can issue orders to himself as well. Because under the "knight commander" ability it states the can issues orders to "other" cadian leman russ characters. I understand his profile both has leman russ and characters but it didn't say he could order himself.
The main thing is that, unlike normal tank commanders, Pask never has the restriction on ordering characters in the first place. The wording of his rule is different.
But that's so he can order other tank commanders. Because it says to give and order pick a friendly leman russ within 6"
I am struggling to find reliable and efficient tank killing other than melta guns on scions.
It doesn't exist in this edition, because tanks are much more durable.
6 lascannon impacts would do the trick, or two times this number of manticore misiles impacts, or four times this number of autocannon impacts, they are all reliable and efficient tank killing options. IG have plenty options about it.
But 12 lascannon are about 450 points, 4 manticores about 530... At this range of points you can also deploy a shadowsword, that is also, another way of kill an enemy tank per turn with some reliability.
A turox prime could be an even more efficient tank killer with hotshot volley and gatling, at close range and stationary, 3 of them kill a tank at average for les than 300 points, of course is hard to be at 12" of the enemy without any movement, but on the other hand, they are at the same time excellent anti-orde machines and fairly resistant for their cost, and versatilty comes with a price (not in points in this case).
And yes, cuatrimelta tempestus command squad are even more efficient, at 84 points the unit, two of them could deep strike and destroy a tank with reliability at just 170 points, ultra efficient, but after that, if they can shoot other things, is only because your opponent is doing very very weird things...
Are those options efficient? Well, yes, in 8° ed you will usually need between 2 and 4 times the points of the víctim in specialized weaponrry to kill it in one turn, so to kill tanks of more than 100 points you will have to invest in anti tank about 300-600, thats sound reasonable.
There are few armys, if any, with such a plethora of efficient ways of destroying enemy tanks.
lash92 wrote: I don't think that flamers are that bad. They cost the same like plasma guns and auto hit (even in overwatch).
So maybe give them to your frontline against assault based armys.
It's possible to mitigate the flamer overwatch pretty easily. All he needs to do is move his unit to 8.1" away from your closest model. There's a 58.33% chance he's going to roll a 7 or higher on 2d6.
I mean, your opponent risks losing his assault, but he's also the one who gets to make that choice against you.
I don't see many assault forces taking that risk. Free Overwatch, plus the unit is hung out to dry over 50% of the time. More likely they just assault somewhere else if they can't eat the flamer. Flamers are going to be an important part of the meta.
Evillain09 wrote: Yeah I have read a lot of people saying HFs are over priced, but they auto hit, get around - to hit, rend, auto hits on overwatch and never degrade on vehicles. So I think you get the value.
I think the major thing about using them on vehicles is to build your list around it. Don't just throw it on a random vehicle. If your list is aggressive and uses transports and can threaten flanks than I think that's where flammers make sense and will shine.
I was specifically talking about flamers. HF at least have that S5 and -1 going for them and overwatch from 8 is pretty murderous. Regular flamers are barely better than non-overcharged plasma against infantry and worse against all else.
Overwatch is significant, especially when units can Fall Back and get charged multiple times in a game.
Everyone who are saying that the superheavies are troublesome doesn't realize how actually good they are.
They do have the -1 to hit when moving, true, but they are absolutely fantastic at melee and desire to be in melee where they are immune to enemy shooting but can themselves continue to fire to essentially full effectiveness.
The only one I wouldn't move into melee with is the Shadowsword but it's primary armament has a +1 to hit against its intended target types anyways, mitigating the -1.
I am struggling to find reliable and efficient tank killing other than melta guns on scions.
It doesn't exist in this edition, because tanks are much more durable.
6 lascannon impacts would do the trick, or two times this number of manticore misiles impacts, or four times this number of autocannon impacts, they are all reliable and efficient tank killing options. IG have plenty options about it.
But 12 lascannon are about 450 points, 4 manticores about 530... At this range of points you can also deploy a shadowsword, that is also, another way of kill an enemy tank per turn with some reliability.
A turox prime could be an even more efficient tank killer with hotshot volley and gatling, at close range and stationary, 3 of them kill a tank at average for les than 300 points, of course is hard to be at 12" of the enemy without any movement, but on the other hand, they are at the same time excellent anti-orde machines and fairly resistant for their cost, and versatilty comes with a price (not in points in this case).
And yes, cuatrimelta tempestus command squad are even more efficient, at 84 points the unit, two of them could deep strike and destroy a tank with reliability at just 170 points, ultra efficient, but after that, if they can shoot other things, is only because your opponent is doing very very weird things...
Are those options efficient? Well, yes, in 8° ed you will usually need between 2 and 4 times the points of the víctim in specialized weaponrry to kill it in one turn, so to kill tanks of more than 100 points you will have to invest in anti tank about 300-600, thats sound reasonable.
There are few armys, if any, with such a plethora of efficient ways of destroying enemy tanks.
Thanks for your opinons. I haven't played much, so I'm basing my information on math hammer. Maybe I am underestimating estimating my firepower. The lists I am making have 2xManticores, Taruox Primes, Vets with plasma and MG, Bullgyrns and Scions to deal with Tank/MCs.
I am super excited for this edition, I just think it will be really hard to build a list that can go through a tournament and be ready to face both an all Mechanized army and an Infantry army. But that's what I love about 8th, at least the idea of 8th. SO many armies seem improved that it should create more diversity and that makes the game better. Just harder for list builders
Mavnas wrote: I think snipers are overrated since they're single shot and will have trouble putting wounds on anything major. Against IG though, I could see someone getting lucky and sniping a key commisar right before they unload one a blob or two.
Word on the street is that 2 Vindicares is a thing now. Ratlings are good but it all depends on what type of system you're playing in (ETC vs ITC etc), as they are an easy kill point.
Although unless you're investing heavily, snipers won't actually do that much (1-2 weak characters a game IF you can draw line of sight etc), what they are good at is forcing your opponent to play conservatively.
180 pts in two vindicares are not such a heavy inversion, I think, and they can kill with some reliability a weak character per turn, or a big one every 2-3 turns, two in a game, and that is pretty heavy damage for some armies.
From afar, nearly invulnerables to non mellee retaliation thanks to be characters, even they can deploy from deep strike to ensure LOS to their targets... certainly disrruptive for some armies very dependant of auras.
Another thing other armies strugle to achieve. All have some kind of sniper, cheaper ones (ratlings are among the best point wise anyway), can do more damage for 180 pts, but not such good positioning and with that invulnerability to retaliation that let vindicares to shoot more turns.
Yes, I'm agree with you, they are gonna be part of the meta.
I got my first 8E game in last night against a guy who only ever plays Eldar and is very good at it (although this was only his 3rd 8E game). I made a ton of tactical mistakes, errors in my list, just bad all around but I did learn a lot. My biggest problem against his Eldar was conceal and his rangers. Way too many 2+ cover saves. I haven't had a chance to really absorb the new AM rules but what tools do we have to get around 2+ cover saves in shooting?
I am struggling to find reliable and efficient tank killing other than melta guns on scions.
It doesn't exist in this edition, because tanks are much more durable.
6 lascannon impacts would do the trick, or two times this number of manticore misiles impacts, or four times this number of autocannon impacts, they are all reliable and efficient tank killing options. IG have plenty options about it.
But 12 lascannon are about 450 points, 4 manticores about 530... At this range of points you can also deploy a shadowsword, that is also, another way of kill an enemy tank per turn with some reliability.
A turox prime could be an even more efficient tank killer with hotshot volley and gatling, at close range and stationary, 3 of them kill a tank at average for les than 300 points, of course is hard to be at 12" of the enemy without any movement, but on the other hand, they are at the same time excellent anti-orde machines and fairly resistant for their cost, and versatilty comes with a price (not in points in this case).
And yes, cuatrimelta tempestus command squad are even more efficient, at 84 points the unit, two of them could deep strike and destroy a tank with reliability at just 170 points, ultra efficient, but after that, if they can shoot other things, is only because your opponent is doing very very weird things...
Are those options efficient? Well, yes, in 8° ed you will usually need between 2 and 4 times the points of the víctim in specialized weaponrry to kill it in one turn, so to kill tanks of more than 100 points you will have to invest in anti tank about 300-600, thats sound reasonable.
There are few armys, if any, with such a plethora of efficient ways of destroying enemy tanks.
Thanks for your opinons. I haven't played much, so I'm basing my information on math hammer. Maybe I am underestimating estimating my firepower. The lists I am making have 2xManticores, Taruox Primes, Vets with plasma and MG, Bullgyrns and Scions to deal with Tank/MCs.
I am super excited for this edition, I just think it will be really hard to build a list that can go through a tournament and be ready to face both an all Mechanized army and an Infantry army. But that's what I love about 8th, at least the idea of 8th. SO many armies seem improved that it should create more diversity and that makes the game better. Just harder for list builders
necron99 wrote: I got my first 8E game in last night against a guy who only ever plays Eldar and is very good at it (although this was only his 3rd 8E game). I made a ton of tactical mistakes, errors in my list, just bad all around but I did learn a lot. My biggest problem against his Eldar was conceal and his rangers. Way too many 2+ cover saves. I haven't had a chance to really absorb the new AM rules but what tools do we have to get around 2+ cover saves in shooting?
Anything with -ap would be pretty good at helping against that.
Cover is negated by -1 or -2 depending on how good their cover is.
I am struggling to find reliable and efficient tank killing other than melta guns on scions.
It doesn't exist in this edition, because tanks are much more durable.
6 lascannon impacts would do the trick, or two times this number of manticore misiles impacts, or four times this number of autocannon impacts, they are all reliable and efficient tank killing options. IG have plenty options about it.
But 12 lascannon are about 450 points, 4 manticores about 530... At this range of points you can also deploy a shadowsword, that is also, another way of kill an enemy tank per turn with some reliability.
A turox prime could be an even more efficient tank killer with hotshot volley and gatling, at close range and stationary, 3 of them kill a tank at average for les than 300 points, of course is hard to be at 12" of the enemy without any movement, but on the other hand, they are at the same time excellent anti-orde machines and fairly resistant for their cost, and versatilty comes with a price (not in points in this case).
And yes, cuatrimelta tempestus command squad are even more efficient, at 84 points the unit, two of them could deep strike and destroy a tank with reliability at just 170 points, ultra efficient, but after that, if they can shoot other things, is only because your opponent is doing very very weird things...
Are those options efficient? Well, yes, in 8° ed you will usually need between 2 and 4 times the points of the víctim in specialized weaponrry to kill it in one turn, so to kill tanks of more than 100 points you will have to invest in anti tank about 300-600, thats sound reasonable.
There are few armys, if any, with such a plethora of efficient ways of destroying enemy tanks.
Thanks for your opinons. I haven't played much, so I'm basing my information on math hammer. Maybe I am underestimating estimating my firepower. The lists I am making have 2xManticores, Taruox Primes, Vets with plasma and MG, Bullgyrns and Scions to deal with Tank/MCs.
I am super excited for this edition, I just think it will be really hard to build a list that can go through a tournament and be ready to face both an all Mechanized army and an Infantry army. But that's what I love about 8th, at least the idea of 8th. SO many armies seem improved that it should create more diversity and that makes the game better. Just harder for list builders
How big is your list in total?
From what I found in my game last night was that, while killing tanks outright is preferable, reducing their ability to move and shoot can be a force multiplier in the opposite direction. Would it be better to destroy a tank a turn or neuter three tanks a turn?
necron99 wrote: I got my first 8E game in last night against a guy who only ever plays Eldar and is very good at it (although this was only his 3rd 8E game). I made a ton of tactical mistakes, errors in my list, just bad all around but I did learn a lot. My biggest problem against his Eldar was conceal and his rangers. Way too many 2+ cover saves. I haven't had a chance to really absorb the new AM rules but what tools do we have to get around 2+ cover saves in shooting?
Anything with -ap would be pretty good at helping against that.
Cover is negated by -1 or -2 depending on how good their cover is.
Ah, gotcha - I'm still figuring out how cover works and the new weapon stat lines but I see what you're saying now.
What are good options for Fast Attack slots? I don't have Sentinels so these as cheap fillers are out. I already have taken two Hellhounds and i am looking for something else, even from another Imperium army. Anyone got ideas for what to take to maybe fill a hole in a TAC army?
mahddoc wrote: What are good options for Fast Attack slots? I don't have Sentinels so these as cheap fillers are out. I already have taken two Hellhounds and i am looking for something else, even from another Imperium army. Anyone got ideas for what to take to maybe fill a hole in a TAC army?
I am a fan of rough riders. Solid counter assault unit with their hunting lances, especially if you got a priest nearby. I want more of them in my list but sadly I run DKOK and it will be awhile before I can buy a second squad haha
So I have an important question that I haven't seen answered on this thread:
How about Ogryns and Bullgryns? I know that they are better just from not having to worry about Instant Death, but I haven't seen anything really mentioned about them yet.
And what loadout would be better for Bullgryns? Can't they mix up their weapons and shields now? Like, taking their maul with the Slabshield?
I am struggling to find reliable and efficient tank killing other than melta guns on scions.
It doesn't exist in this edition, because tanks are much more durable.
6 lascannon impacts would do the trick, or two times this number of manticore misiles impacts, or four times this number of autocannon impacts, they are all reliable and efficient tank killing options. IG have plenty options about it.
But 12 lascannon are about 450 points, 4 manticores about 530... At this range of points you can also deploy a shadowsword, that is also, another way of kill an enemy tank per turn with some reliability.
A turox prime could be an even more efficient tank killer with hotshot volley and gatling, at close range and stationary, 3 of them kill a tank at average for les than 300 points, of course is hard to be at 12" of the enemy without any movement, but on the other hand, they are at the same time excellent anti-orde machines and fairly resistant for their cost, and versatilty comes with a price (not in points in this case).
And yes, cuatrimelta tempestus command squad are even more efficient, at 84 points the unit, two of them could deep strike and destroy a tank with reliability at just 170 points, ultra efficient, but after that, if they can shoot other things, is only because your opponent is doing very very weird things...
Are those options efficient? Well, yes, in 8° ed you will usually need between 2 and 4 times the points of the víctim in specialized weaponrry to kill it in one turn, so to kill tanks of more than 100 points you will have to invest in anti tank about 300-600, thats sound reasonable.
There are few armys, if any, with such a plethora of efficient ways of destroying enemy tanks.
Thanks for your opinons. I haven't played much, so I'm basing my information on math hammer. Maybe I am underestimating estimating my firepower. The lists I am making have 2xManticores, Taruox Primes, Vets with plasma and MG, Bullgyrns and Scions to deal with Tank/MCs.
I am super excited for this edition, I just think it will be really hard to build a list that can go through a tournament and be ready to face both an all Mechanized army and an Infantry army. But that's what I love about 8th, at least the idea of 8th. SO many armies seem improved that it should create more diversity and that makes the game better. Just harder for list builders
How big is your list in total?
2k List: WIP mechanized AM with Conscript screen (that list is like 20 points over):
• HQ CC- 30
Commissar – 30
Tempestor Prime, rod- 40
• Heavy Support
-1x HWT Mortars
-1x HWT Mortars
-1x Manticore
-1x Manticore
I want to test out if the Primes are worth the points also try Hellhounds vrs Banewolfs. I actually like idea of using 3 HF Scout Sentinels. I love the models and I think they are pretty good.
BunkhouseBuster wrote: So I have an important question that I haven't seen answered on this thread:
How about Ogryns and Bullgryns? I know that they are better just from not having to worry about Instant Death, but I haven't seen anything really mentioned about them yet.
And what loadout would be better for Bullgryns? Can't they mix up their weapons and shields now? Like, taking their maul with the Slabshield?
I would say that bullgryns with Slabshield and maul, with a couple of brute shields for high AP weapons. Not perfect, as you would have to allocate to an already wounded model, but can save you some pain.
I'm actually liking the look of Nork. He is a good way to keep your warlord alive if you are having a problem with snipers, and he is pretty good in a fight.
Yeah I think Nork would be good at that, but if you run Bullgyrns, 2 Bullgyrns will probably do more damage in melee than Nork. But he could have his uses to protect an HQ. Him next Yarrick in an infantry list would make Yarrick incredibly difficult to kill.
necron99 wrote: From what I found in my game last night was that, while killing tanks outright is preferable, reducing their ability to move and shoot can be a force multiplier in the opposite direction. Would it be better to destroy a tank a turn or neuter three tanks a turn?
That's actually a fairly good point and highlights the need to move out of 7th edition mindset.
Some tanks/beasts (or all/most, depending on the degradation) could really be hurt in terms of movement and to-hit modifiers. Great point
necron99 wrote: I got my first 8E game in last night against a guy who only ever plays Eldar and is very good at it (although this was only his 3rd 8E game). I made a ton of tactical mistakes, errors in my list, just bad all around but I did learn a lot. My biggest problem against his Eldar was conceal and his rangers. Way too many 2+ cover saves. I haven't had a chance to really absorb the new AM rules but what tools do we have to get around 2+ cover saves in shooting?
Like as has been said - cover is no longer a separate form of invulnerable save, just go for the high AP weaponary.
One vehicle I have seen talked about much is the hydra!
It isn't open topped and is more survivable like all other vehicles.
It actually fires at ground targets on 5's instead of 6's so it hits them more now-used to snap fire on 6's.
Against air targets it hits on 3's which is most flyers, skimmers, jump infantry and flying monsters which is more targets.
It's ap-1 and damage 2 with 8 shots has done very well for me! I took 1 hydra one game who brought down Magnus by himself. Then the following game brought 2 hydras and they brought down a helldrake and hellbute. The -1 and 2 damage makes short work at whatever it fires at.
Sure it went up in points as most vehicles did but I think the hydra is a pretty decent fire support unit with good range to sit back and take down flying units.
Along with 2 wyverns my list will also auto include 2 hydras.
tankboy145 wrote: Against air targets it hits on 3's which is most flyers, skimmers, jump infantry and flying monsters which is more targets.
Don't forget that you still have to take the -1 from the "Hard to Hit" rule for most fliers, the +1 that the hydra gets just counteracts it and doesn't get rid of it. So you are only hitting something like a Valkyrie on a 4+ if it doesn't hover.
tankboy145 wrote: I'm uncertain if pask can issue orders to himself as well. Because under the "knight commander" ability it states the can issues orders to "other" cadian leman russ characters. I understand his profile both has leman russ and characters but it didn't say he could order himself.
The answer seems very simple. Yes, he can issue orders to his own tank. The logic is RAW in his Tanks Orders rule. His unit is Cadian, it is a Leman Russ [Keyword], and the tank is within six inches of Pask. He has no rule that prevents him from issuing orders to himself or to Cadian LR characters. The Knight Commander rule says that he "can" issue orders to other Cadian Leman Russ characters but it does not say that he cannot issue an order to himself.
tankboy145 wrote: Against air targets it hits on 3's which is most flyers, skimmers, jump infantry and flying monsters which is more targets.
Don't forget that you still have to take the -1 from the "Hard to Hit" rule for most fliers, the +1 that the hydra gets just counteracts it and doesn't get rid of it. So you are only hitting something like a Valkyrie on a 4+ if it doesn't hover.
While that's certainly true, there are actually an awful lot of units that fly but are not hard to hit. Basically true flyers are mostly hard to hit (though helldrakes aren't) but skimmers, jetbikes, jump packs and jet pack units are all perfectly easy to hit. It's extremely likely that the Hydra will have something to shoot at.
The only downside to it is that you could almost have a bastion with a quad gun for the same price, and keep a bunch of guns inside. But actually the Hydra hits better and is reasonably tough, so it's still a very valid option.
xmbk wrote: Overwatch is significant, especially when units can Fall Back and get charged multiple times in a game.
Again, I see many people suggesting 1-2 flamers would be scary. Consider that each flamer (not HF, those are decent) puts out 3.5 hits. Against the humble guardsmen that turns into 3.5 * 2/3 * 2/3 = 1.5 dead guardsmen. Against marines 1/2 wound * 1/3 unsaved that's less than a single dead marine per flamer.
There's a big difference between a guard super-heavy with 4 twin heavy flamers on its sponsons and some random squad with the odd flamer thrown in. I agree the first is scary, the second isn't much worse than the odd lucky roll of a 6 from normal guns.
daedalus wrote: Oh. Hellstrike missiles don't appear to be one use only anymore.
Interesting, right? It's something that's happened across the board. Things like Storm Ravens, Nephilims and Burna Bommerz all just have a things that fire multiple times, but without the nova effect that they once had.
Notice therefore that the valk only has one Hellstrike launcher. It can only fire one a turn, but can keep on firing them.
xmbk wrote: Overwatch is significant, especially when units can Fall Back and get charged multiple times in a game.
Again, I see many people suggesting 1-2 flamers would be scary. Consider that each flamer (not HF, those are decent) puts out 3.5 hits. Against the humble guardsmen that turns into 3.5 * 2/3 * 2/3 = 1.5 dead guardsmen. Against marines 1/2 wound * 1/3 unsaved that's less than a single dead marine per flamer.
There's a big difference between a guard super-heavy with 4 twin heavy flamers on its sponsons and some random squad with the odd flamer thrown in. I agree the first is scary, the second isn't much worse than the odd lucky roll of a 6 from normal guns.
How is killing .58 marines on Overwatch shooting not a good deal? If the unit doesn't get wiped, you get another 1-2 shots when you Fall Back. Two dead marines for the cost of a flamer is a pretty good deal.
tankboy145 wrote: Against air targets it hits on 3's which is most flyers, skimmers, jump infantry and flying monsters which is more targets.
Don't forget that you still have to take the -1 from the "Hard to Hit" rule for most fliers, the +1 that the hydra gets just counteracts it and doesn't get rid of it. So you are only hitting something like a Valkyrie on a 4+ if it doesn't hover.
The Hydra has 72" range and is tall enough to see over your infantry line, just stick it in the middle of your deployment edge and it can hit the whole board without ever moving.
The Hydra is pretty much why I was excited about the Exterminator autocannon potentially getting Heavy 8, and disappointed it got turned into Heavy 4. As long as you're fighting something with lots of jump and skimmer units though (looking at you, Tau), the Hydra is a fine substitute.
I also don't like flamers. A considerable number of assaults are going to be launched from outside their range - especially by people who deep strike in. You don't even get to fire your flamers in that situation.
Meanwhile all the marines have to do is have their rhino charge first. You'll be extremely lucky to hurt it with a flamer (which is yet another reason why drop pods, which obviously can't do this, are dead).
I think that 8th is the edition of the plasma gun. Give your vets 3 plasma guns and have somebody order them not to blow themselves up. Many problems will go away.
Daedalus I'm not sure how you are getting those numbers (not arguing, just genuinely don't know). For reference, a Tau devilfish has the same toughness and save as a rhino. Crisis suits are T5 3+, 3 wounds (so every second wounding hit wastes a wound).
Best target for a hydra might be the new Primaris Intercessors (the flying ones). It averages 1.78 wounding hits on them, so it should tend to kill two, for a value of 150 points/turn.
Kaeldran wrote: 6 lascannon impacts would do the trick, or two times this number of manticore misiles impacts, or four times this number of autocannon impacts, they are all reliable and efficient tank killing options. IG have plenty options about it.
But 12 lascannon are about 450 points, 4 manticores about 530... At this range of points you can also deploy a shadowsword, that is also, another way of kill an enemy tank per turn with some reliability.
A turox prime could be an even more efficient tank killer with hotshot volley and gatling, at close range and stationary, 3 of them kill a tank at average for les than 300 points, of course is hard to be at 12" of the enemy without any movement, but on the other hand, they are at the same time excellent anti-orde machines and fairly resistant for their cost, and versatilty comes with a price (not in points in this case).
And yes, cuatrimelta tempestus command squad are even more efficient, at 84 points the unit, two of them could deep strike and destroy a tank with reliability at just 170 points, ultra efficient, but after that, if they can shoot other things, is only because your opponent is doing very very weird things...
Are those options efficient? Well, yes, in 8° ed you will usually need between 2 and 4 times the points of the víctim in specialized weaponrry to kill it in one turn, so to kill tanks of more than 100 points you will have to invest in anti tank about 300-600, thats sound reasonable.
There are few armys, if any, with such a plethora of efficient ways of destroying enemy tanks.
Whoever convinced you to pay 450pts for 12 lascannons is robbing you blind. 12 lascannons on HWSs would only be about 288pts. For 450 you could get 18 lascannons. Furthermore, looking at the Taurox prime, you pay about 75pts per wound inflicted on T8 3+ targets, whereas with lascannon HWSs you only pay 25pts per wound, making lascannons much more efficient tank hunters. Scion command squads with melta are even more efficient points-wise, needing less than 18pts per wound, but you need to dedicated 2-3 to kill a vehicle reliably. They are still brokenly cheap.
mahddoc wrote: What are good options for Fast Attack slots? I don't have Sentinels so these as cheap fillers are out. I already have taken two Hellhounds and i am looking for something else, even from another Imperium army. Anyone got ideas for what to take to maybe fill a hole in a TAC army?
I am a fan of rough riders. Solid counter assault unit with their hunting lances, especially if you got a priest nearby. I want more of them in my list but sadly I run DKOK and it will be awhile before I can buy a second squad haha
I have used Hydras in my games supporting my Baneblade company and found them to be a thunderous 'meh.'
Against their designated targets (things with W2) then they're fantastic; they shred Terminators (every failed 3+ is a dead model - only Plasma can say that but it has to be overcharged!), Primaris Marines, and other light-armoured vehicles with the Fly keyword (fantastic against Land Speeders!).
However, against heavy armour (e.g. Leman Russ tanks or Land Raiders) that doesn't fly, or against 1W models, its potential is largely wasted.
I've also found that firing 8 Autocannon shots at 72" attracts inordinate amounts of attention from enemy anti-tank assets. Even with three Baneblades roaming the field, the enemy will dedicate some portion of their power to removing the Hydras first.
SuspiciousSucculent wrote: Whoever convinced you to pay 450pts for 12 lascannons is robbing you blind. 12 lascannons on HWSs would only be about 288pts. For 450 you could get 18 lascannons. Furthermore, looking at the Taurox prime, you pay about 75pts per wound inflicted on T8 3+ targets, whereas with lascannon HWSs you only pay 25pts per wound, making lascannons much more efficient tank hunters. Scion command squads with melta are even more efficient points-wise, needing less than 18pts per wound, but you need to dedicated 2-3 to kill a vehicle reliably. They are still brokenly cheap.
I think the question with HWS is are they still alive after turn 1? This question is extra relevant if you're constantly going second. I think some of the sturdier platforms for Lascannons make up for cost by firing for more than a round or two.
I think the question with HWS is are they still alive after turn 1? This question is extra relevant if you're constantly going second. I think some of the sturdier platforms for Lascannons make up for cost by firing for more than a round or two.
Well, it's easy, you just hide them behind your tan....
From the games i have played so far, against any ranged army. Heavy weapons teams are going to die extremely quickly, especially since you go second most times. Its more effective to use them in infantry squads for ablative wounds or put them in a baneblade transport variant
That's pretty much why I've been saying expensive stuff like lascannons should be embedded in infantry squads. The squad can keep them alive by taking hits for them. It also deters your opponent from targeting them with multi-wound weapons, because most of those hits are going to be absorbed by 1-wound models.
You're also not really paying any more for them than a HWS would, since I don't see anything about the two models that form the HWT giving up their lasguns (something that is reinforced by the HWS having lasguns in addition to their heavy weapon), so the squad isn't actually losing anything to take that heavy weapon. They go from having 9 lasguns and 10 wounds to 9 lasguns, 10 wounds, and a heavy weapon. And because neither is a pistol, RAW you can fire the heavy weapon and the HWT's lasguns in the same turn, with full split-fire.
Or you could embed them in Veteran squads if you want them to hit on 3+. Or give them to Command Squads if you want to have 2 ablative wounds per weapon instead of 8 (and still hit on 3+).
An independent HWS should be the domain of cheap things you won't miss much, like mortars.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I have used Hydras in my games supporting my Baneblade company and found them to be a thunderous 'meh.'
Against their designated targets (things with W2) then they're fantastic; they shred Terminators (every failed 3+ is a dead model - only Plasma can say that but it has to be overcharged!), Primaris Marines, and other light-armoured vehicles with the Fly keyword (fantastic against Land Speeders!).
However, against heavy armour (e.g. Leman Russ tanks or Land Raiders) that doesn't fly, or against 1W models, its potential is largely wasted.
I've also found that firing 8 Autocannon shots at 72" attracts inordinate amounts of attention from enemy anti-tank assets. Even with three Baneblades roaming the field, the enemy will dedicate some portion of their power to removing the Hydras first.
So, it's a specialist piece of kit. That's fine, especially in larger games, and depending on the meta, it's ideal targets might be shockingly common.
Per the hydra as mentioned only a few flyers actually have the hard to hit rule.
Skimmers, jump infantry and flying monstrous creatures from my knowledge don't have hard to hit. Unless on its data sheet.
But as other said with 72" range you park it in your back field and you will pretty much be able to target the whole board aside from los blocking terrain.
But obviously hydras have a specific target to fire at and they seem to do very well with it. It would seem if they don't have targets then they will still be able to add some decent fire support coupled with wyverns to focus infantry and manticores for antitank. Get some conscript blobs to screen from assault. Plasma scions to intercept any big scary targets. Sounds like a rather decent fire base.
So, are infantry platoons and combined squads gone? I can't seem to find anything saying they are still there.
If they are gone...what's the point of even playing guard if you can't have large infantry squads, which need to be large to do anything other than do a simple trade of models with the enemy, in my experience.
A Hydra is 123 points, with a Hydra Quad Autocannon and a Heavy Bolter, 125 or 127 with a Storm Bolter or Heavy Stubber respectively. A HWS with autocannons (if you'd ever want them for some reason) is 57 points, or about half.
Against any non-flying targets, you get 2.67 hits with the autocannons and 1.5 with the Heavy Bolter. The HWS gets 3 hits with their autocannons.
So you pay little more than double the points cost for equal or slightly superior damage output and more than double the toughness (T6, W11, 3+) against most targets and weapons. Versus fliers, it's not even funny how much better the Hydra is.
So if you know you are likely to face anything with fly, you might as well bring a Hydra if you are worried about it as it's not that crippled against other targets.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heafstaag wrote: So, are infantry platoons and combined squads gone? I can't seem to find anything saying they are still there.
If they are gone...what's the point of even playing guard if you can't have large infantry squads, which need to be large to do anything other than do a simple trade of models with the enemy, in my experience.
Yes, they are gone apart from massive squads of Conscripts. Instead, you get a lot of squads as each squad is a single troop choice (or elite/heavy for SWS/HWS respectively), leading to a) almost never becoming first player b) having an obscene amount of command points.
Playing as DKoK, I've certainly managed without combined squads, and with our new morale buffs etc. I'm sure it won't be that bad.
How can you field everything you need wish the platoon being broken up? How are there enough slots? HWTS competing with tanks are artillery for slots?!
what do mean under point a? (never becoming first player)
and about point b... i'm not quite sure on command points. I'm just now starting to look into 8th.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean 6 in infantry squads taking up 6 troop slots?! What the hell. That's not impressive at all. I rarely used all the troop slots in the guard, but still...I usually ran 100 or more infantry on foot...how do you get those numbers now?
And with those 100 guys on foot there would be heavy weapons squads and special weapons squads providing support. Which left slots open for tanks and artillery.
I am very downcast on the appeal (for me a least) of the guard now that its basic building block is gone, and one that was my favorite part of the game.
Heafstaag wrote: So, are infantry platoons and combined squads gone? I can't seem to find anything saying they are still there.
If they are gone...what's the point of even playing guard if you can't have large infantry squads, which need to be large to do anything other than do a simple trade of models with the enemy, in my experience.
So, we lost combined squads, but the commissar is a bubble now. Long as you keep your squads within 6", they're all affected.
Other than that, what did those rules actually get you? Ablative bodies? You have those again to a certain extent with choosing your casualties. Not as many as in 5th ed, but it's still an improvement over 7th. Orders? Get a company commander per two squads. HQs are crazy easy to dump into your force org nowadays. I can't think of that many situations where losing blobs made guard weaker at this point.
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Heafstaag wrote: How can you field everything you need wish the platoon being broken up? How are there enough slots? HWTS competing with tanks are artillery for slots?!
what do mean under point a? (never becoming first player)
and about point b... i'm not quite sure on command points. I'm just now starting to look into 8th.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean 6 in infantry squads taking up 6 troop slots?! What the hell. That's not impressive at all. I rarely used all the troop slots in the guard, but still...I usually ran 100 or more infantry on foot...how do you get those numbers now?
And with those 100 guys on foot there would be heavy weapons squads and special weapons squads providing support. Which left slots open for tanks and artillery.
I am very downcast on the appeal (for me a least) of the guard now that its basic building block is gone, and one that was my favorite part of the game.
You can take multiple detachments, and it's super easy to get extra FOC slots. Go check out a store copy of the rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For example, this is a detachment now:
HQ 3-5
Elite 3-8
Troops 6-12
Fast attack 3-5
Heavy 3-5
Flyer 0-2
Don't think of this in terms of 7th edition. Things are very different now.
Heafstaag wrote: How can you field everything you need wish the platoon being broken up? How are there enough slots? HWTS competing with tanks are artillery for slots?!
what do mean under point a? (never becoming first player)
and about point b... i'm not quite sure on command points. I'm just now starting to look into 8th.
We can take up to three Brigade detachments now, instead of one of the old FoC. So while our platoons have been scattered to the four winds, we have quite a lot of slots to put them into (max 15 HQ, 36 Troops, 24 Elites, 15 Fast Attack, 15 Heavy Support, and 6 Flyers).
However, the change to the mandatory minimums has also moved the platoon's tax units into the other slots so we still have about the same "overhead" of mandatory models.
A lot of our former HQ and Troops units got put into Elites though, so our Elite section is a bit over-crowded, and our Troops section is a bit anemic (your choices are infantry, conscripts, or scions). The HQ slot can also be a bit on the anemic side, unless you're putting tanks in it you're going to find that you're taking more Company Commanders than you could possibly need just to meet your mandatory minimums.
Also vehicle squadrons are still a thing, so we can still get some deceptively long mileage out of those HS, FA, and Flyer slots.
I just had a revelation. You can field 2 mortar 1 lascannon HWTs since everyone can split fire now. For barely more than one troop squad you can get 2 of those with 20% more wounds, double the lascannons and low dependence on commisars since at most you lose 2 models before the squad is enirely gone.
People need to look at 8th as a new game. Don't think in terms of 7th.
HWS are better now but still suffer from a lot of the same weaknesses. Lascannons are already slighly unreliable, then add on that they die very easily, hit on 5's if they move and need leadership and reroll 1's support. You can compare them to things like the Prime and point out how much cheaper they are but there are glarring weaknesses for the HWS. It also puts you into a infantry heavy army. I don't think they work very well combined with a mechanized, fast army.
I probably will look towards the Mortars as my HWS, but I'm sure if you build around the Lascannon ,AC, or even HB HWSs you could make them work.
Evillain09 wrote: People need to look at 8th as a new game. Don't think in terms of 7th.
HWS are better now but still suffer from a lot of the same weaknesses. Lascannons are already slighly unreliable, then add on that they die very easily, hit on 5's if they move and need leadership and reroll 1's support. You can compare them to things like the Prime and point out how much cheaper they are but there are glarring weaknesses for the HWS. It also puts you into a infantry heavy army. I don't think they work very well combined with a mechanized, fast army.
I probably will look towards the Mortars as my HWS, but I'm sure if you build around the Lascannon ,AC, or even HB HWSs you could make them work.
In my example above that would be 15 kps now, if kill points are still a thing, vs 3 in 7th edition. That is a huuuge change!
Cheap screening units are gold now. Having access to conscripts is a huge boon for guard players. You can still bring 150 models in 3 squads via conscripts.
I was originally bummed by the platoon going away as I loved my blob guard with lascannons and axes. But there are ways to build around that. Use conscripts for the large blocks of models to hold objectives (they can even go about 20 inches per turn with "move move move"). Use dedicated anti assault units like ogryn to throw back assaults. It's harder to hide heavy weapons in squads now, but I don't think that's a viable way to run them anymore anyway. Using a bunker, a bastion or a stomlord to carry heavy weapon teams is probably the better way to go.
Heafstaag wrote: How can you field everything you need wish the platoon being broken up? How are there enough slots? HWTS competing with tanks are artillery for slots?!
what do mean under point a? (never becoming first player)
and about point b... i'm not quite sure on command points. I'm just now starting to look into 8th.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean 6 in infantry squads taking up 6 troop slots?! What the hell. That's not impressive at all. I rarely used all the troop slots in the guard, but still...I usually ran 100 or more infantry on foot...how do you get those numbers now?
And with those 100 guys on foot there would be heavy weapons squads and special weapons squads providing support. Which left slots open for tanks and artillery.
I am very downcast on the appeal (for me a least) of the guard now that its basic building block is gone, and one that was my favorite part of the game.
As others have said, you can bring as many detachments as you want and you have a lot of slots for everything.
a) You deploy unit by unit, the first player who has deployed everything goes first unless you can seize. If you have 15 units of guardsmen as well as supporting elements whilst your opponent has 10 units in total, he or she will go first.
b) It's just a bonus you get for bringing everything, but it's always nice having a lot of re-rolls when necessary. We will also get stratagems in the codex, so we'll see if it doesn't get even better.
Considering that the largest detachment is 6-12 troops and 3-5 HQ's (20-30 a piece at their cheapest), you could almost field three of them with what you have, which without equipment would be about 1000 points. You would also have 30 command points, or about 1 every phase for 6 whole turns.
But yeah, you will most likely get absolutely crushed in kill points missions. But then again, you could play with Conscripts there.
Okay, I've read up on some of the detachments, and I'm not worried about slots now! lol, there's plenty to go 'round!
My worry now is the lack of durability of guard infantry now that there are no combined squads, besides conscripts, I guess. But I have catachans and i don't think they use conscripts. I could just use catachans with a homebrew regiment, I suppose.
Still, there is a lot to think about. I do love that rough riders seem pretty good now, and with the...outrider? detachments 6 units can be taken! I may have to actually convert up a ton of rough riders. (my dream was to have more cavalry options this edition, but oh well)
One of the things that we can do better than most as IG, is fielding detachments that give us lots of command points.
So what is the best way to maximize return on those command points?
I have yet to play my first game of 8th edition, but my speculations run along the following lines.
Re-roll on weapons that have d6 attacks or similar when rolling a 1, even flamers on over watch as that would allow you to wield your command points in your opponents turn.
Re-roll on weapon damage of d6 or similar when rolling a 1, maybe even re-roll 1's on d3 damage.
Re-roll psychic rolls that fail if you bring psychers.
Strike first in melee appears to be very situational, but very good when the situation arises.
And use our command points as soon as it is possible, saving command points to turn 4 or 5 does not appear to be a good strategy from my point of view.
If you end the game with command points on hand, those points are wasted.
Is there a point where we cannot get to use all our command points?
5 turns, 4 points per turn = 20 command points. This might be the limit on what we would benefit from using only the three standard stratagems.
Trickstick wrote: On the plus side, if a squad takes 12 wound from a shooting attack then you are saving 2 wounds. Conscripts take the full 12.
Very true, but it also means the squad is dead a kill point is given up. Its a trade off, which is as it should be I suppose. Pros and cons to every choice you make in creating your army.
Only 1 of the Eternal War missions uses Kill Points though (2 if you count the one where Heavy Supports yield kill points), as well as some of the Tactical Objectives (51-55, 64).
However, most missions are reliant on capturing objectives, and you do that by a) having units near them and b) having more models near them than your enemy. Guess what army has a lot of units that can be spread out, AND can have a lot of models near an objective as well?
Yes, your squads will be easy to destroy, but you can literally buy three squads of guardsmen for every Tactical Squad. Some of them ought to survive and if you play infantry heavy lists you should not be unfamiliar with heavy losses.
I'd also like to add that I hope it would be a viable tactic for DKoK. I absolutely loved the Forlorn Hope rule, even if it was pretty awful a lot of times. If they price our basic infantry at 7 points a model again I will be very mad.
Cthugha wrote: One of the things that we can do better than most as IG, is fielding detachments that give us lots of command points.
So what is the best way to maximize return on those command points?*snip*.
Hellhounds and Manticores for hits. Lascannons for damage. Rolling to-hit for Meltas.
Or any key dice rolls, a stray lasgun shot failing to put a wound on a lone single-wound character/battlesuit/etc. More situational.
A good example of a bad option is the Wyvern, rolling how many shots it gets.
Aenarian wrote: Only 1 of the Eternal War missions uses Kill Points though (2 if you count the one where Heavy Supports yield kill points)
That rather sours me on the idea of HWSs and makes vehicle heavy support far more attractive. I know it is only one mission, but we already have problems with kill points. No need to double the amount of battles it counts for.
Cthugha wrote: One of the things that we can do better than most as IG, is fielding detachments that give us lots of command points.
So what is the best way to maximize return on those command points?
I have yet to play my first game of 8th edition, but my speculations run along the following lines.
Re-roll on weapons that have d6 attacks or similar when rolling a 1, even flamers on over watch as that would allow you to wield your command points in your opponents turn.
Re-roll on weapon damage of d6 or similar when rolling a 1, maybe even re-roll 1's on d3 damage.
Re-roll psychic rolls that fail if you bring psychers.
Strike first in melee appears to be very situational, but very good when the situation arises.
And use our command points as soon as it is possible, saving command points to turn 4 or 5 does not appear to be a good strategy from my point of view.
If you end the game with command points on hand, those points are wasted.
Is there a point where we cannot get to use all our command points?
5 turns, 4 points per turn = 20 command points. This might be the limit on what we would benefit from using only the three standard stratagems.
Don't forget you can use reroll on your opponent's turns, once per phase, so technically you can use 70 command points.
-6 Phases per player turn, even when it's not your turn, there are dice in each phase you might roll, and thus can reroll. Plus you can spend 2CP on morale tests and fight interrupts.
Movement Phase: Your turns 5, opponent's turn 0
Psychic Phase: Your turns 5, opponent's turn 5
Shooting Phase: Your turns 5, opponent's turn 5
Charging Phase:Your turns 5, opponent's turn 5
Fight Phase: Your turn 5, opponent's turn 10
Morale Phase: Your turn 10, opponent's turn 10
However in match play your limited to 3 detachents at 2k points, thus 36 CPs
Aenarian wrote: Only 1 of the Eternal War missions uses Kill Points though (2 if you count the one where Heavy Supports yield kill points)
That rather sours me on the idea of HWSs and makes vehicle heavy support far more attractive. I know it is only one mission, but we already have problems with kill points. No need to double the amount of battles it counts for.
Of course, but it's a nice, somewhat hidden balancing factor. If you could take a unit which is (perhaps very?) overpowered on paper, but will lose you 33% of all the battles you play because of mission rules, will you use it?
Not saying that HWS are overpowered or anything, but it might reduce the power of some horde armies without necessarily increasing points costs etc.
Aenarian wrote: Only 1 of the Eternal War missions uses Kill Points though (2 if you count the one where Heavy Supports yield kill points)
That rather sours me on the idea of HWSs and makes vehicle heavy support far more attractive. I know it is only one mission, but we already have problems with kill points. No need to double the amount of battles it counts for.
Of course, but it's a nice, somewhat hidden balancing factor. If you could take a unit which is (perhaps very?) overpowered on paper, but will lose you 33% of all the battles you play because of mission rules, will you use it?
Not saying that HWS are overpowered or anything, but it might reduce the power of some horde armies without necessarily increasing points costs etc.
But some armies don't really have good options not to drop lots of small units. Especially now that all units can split fire, kill points are just dumb.
Aenarian wrote: Only 1 of the Eternal War missions uses Kill Points though (2 if you count the one where Heavy Supports yield kill points)
That rather sours me on the idea of HWSs and makes vehicle heavy support far more attractive. I know it is only one mission, but we already have problems with kill points. No need to double the amount of battles it counts for.
Of course, but it's a nice, somewhat hidden balancing factor. If you could take a unit which is (perhaps very?) overpowered on paper, but will lose you 33% of all the battles you play because of mission rules, will you use it?
Not saying that HWS are overpowered or anything, but it might reduce the power of some horde armies without necessarily increasing points costs etc.
But some armies don't really have good options not to drop lots of small units. Especially now that all units can split fire, kill points are just dumb.
And some don't have a lot of options to cover 6 objectives. It isn't optimal for anyone, but you would most likely have to rewrite the mission rules so that certain objective-based missions don't favour MSU armies and KP-based missions don't favour armies with a few large ones.
However, I'd just like to say that I fully agree with you in that it hurts us disproportionately. In fact, I think that IG is the most hurt by KP as Orkz and Tyranids can make pretty large units with 30 models while we cannot. Would I like to see combined squads back? Of course. But it's not the end of the world.
I think it's always going to be a problem with the kill point mechanic. It just gives some armies a straight up advantage over others. If Imperial knights were truly balanced and always did as well as any other army, they should win kill points every time as they only have 4-5 up for grabs. I'd much rather see something along the lines of scoring the points cost for each unit destroyed - even if it is a bit more mathematical...
Aenarian wrote: Only 1 of the Eternal War missions uses Kill Points though (2 if you count the one where Heavy Supports yield kill points)
That rather sours me on the idea of HWSs and makes vehicle heavy support far more attractive. I know it is only one mission, but we already have problems with kill points. No need to double the amount of battles it counts for.
Of course, but it's a nice, somewhat hidden balancing factor. If you could take a unit which is (perhaps very?) overpowered on paper, but will lose you 33% of all the battles you play because of mission rules, will you use it?
Not saying that HWS are overpowered or anything, but it might reduce the power of some horde armies without necessarily increasing points costs etc.
But some armies don't really have good options not to drop lots of small units. Especially now that all units can split fire, kill points are just dumb.
And some don't have a lot of options to cover 6 objectives. It isn't optimal for anyone, but you would most likely have to rewrite the mission rules so that certain objective-based missions don't favour MSU armies and KP-based missions don't favour armies with a few large ones.
However, I'd just like to say that I fully agree with you in that it hurts us disproportionately. In fact, I think that IG is the most hurt by KP as Orkz and Tyranids can make pretty large units with 30 models while we cannot. Would I like to see combined squads back? Of course. But it's not the end of the world.
I don't see how you can't cover 6 objectives at 2K points especially since you don't have to hold them the whole time.
I don't see how you can't cover 6 objectives at 2K points especially since you don't have to hold them the whole time.
Because stuff dies. If you have 15-20 units and at least half of them die, covering 6 objectives can suddenly be quite difficult. Remember that IG has an almost unparalleled amount of firepower at their disposal.
What if you are playing an elite army, you will often not have more than 10-15 units (Terminators are about 200, heavy vehicles like Land Raiders far more etc), so losing half of them and suddenly you cannot cover close to as much ground. Or you remember that the amount of models near an objective are the important part, and your 5 terminators or 1 tank are much less than 30-50 guardsmen at the same price.
Missions are not fair for everyone, and if you believe that you are unfairly hit by Kill Points, you have a few choices at your disposal to mitigate it.
1) Talk with your opponent about rebalancing, for example that you get the unit cost in kill points instead of 1/unit. 2) Don't play kill points missions 3) Ask GW to write an errata. 4) Ask your opponent if you could be allowed to combine squads.
My army has never had combined squad while being almost as easy to kill as normal IG, plus having a rule where I can bring back dead platoons. So in a kill points mission, they could kill a platoon, wait for it to come back, and then kill it again. Of course it felt unfair, but the game isn't always fair.
shank911 wrote: Can manticore/basilisj/mortars choose to target characters if they are out of LoS??
A character can only be chosen if it is the closestvisible enemy unit. The argument can be made that Earthshaker Cannon etc. ignores the visible restriction, but it still needs to be the closest.
Has anyone done much play-testing for conscript blobs?
I've just bought some staggered movement trays for my 100 conscripts. Given that there hasn't been a competitive guard army since 5th, this should be really fun.
Naix wrote: Has anyone done much play-testing for conscript blobs?
I've just bought some staggered movement trays for my 100 conscripts. Given that there hasn't been a competitive guard army since 5th, this should be really fun.
Can you post a pic/link so I can see what a "staggered movement tray" looks like?
Cheap stuff. HWS don't have character protection, and with multiwound weapons floating around their 2 wounds can vanish real quick. Putting expensive stuff on them is asking them to get picked off. Put cheap stuff on them, and your opponent might be more reluctant to target them when there are bigger fish to fry.
Expensive stuff should be embedded in infantry squads, which will likely draw about the same amount of fire whether they have a heavy weapon or not, and if your opponent tries to throw a multi-wound weapon at them, you can just allocate it to a single-wound model to waste a big chunk of its damage potential. The return to the 5th ed wound allocation system is basically an auto-pass Look Out Sir! for any model you like.
vipoid wrote: By the way, what do you guys think are the best weapons for Heavy Weapon Squads?
Expensive weapons like Lascannons or Missile Launchers?
Cheap stuff like Heavy Bolters and Mortars?
Also, do you think there's any value in mixing weapons (e.g. 2 Autocannons and a single Missile Launcher)?
Mortars are probably the best option. Cheap enough to not be a huge loss, while still being able to hide outside LoS and still be effective. The other heavy weapons should probably be hidden in squads, I think.
vipoid wrote: By the way, what do you guys think are the best weapons for Heavy Weapon Squads?
Expensive weapons like Lascannons or Missile Launchers?
Cheap stuff like Heavy Bolters and Mortars?
Also, do you think there's any value in mixing weapons (e.g. 2 Autocannons and a single Missile Launcher)?
Mortars are probably the best option. Cheap enough to not be a huge loss, while still being able to hide outside LoS and still be effective. The other heavy weapons should probably be hidden in squads, I think.
Looking at the Designer's Notes, am I right in thinking you get a cover save for shooting outside LOS with mortars/artillery?
How about 2 mortars and 1 lascannon in hws? It's a lower points total so less likely to be shot at. And if it has the Lascannon has 2/4 wounds before it's hit?
Also I am loving the manticore. yes it only has 4 shots but a game only lasts 5 turns so if it's still alive use it to drive onto an objective? Or assault a unit on an objective on the last turn?
Useless Sidekick wrote: How about 2 mortars and 1 lascannon in hws? It's a lower points total so less likely to be shot at. And if it has the Lascannon has 2/4 wounds before it's hit?
Also I am loving the manticore. yes it only has 4 shots but a game only lasts 5 turns so if it's still alive use it to drive onto an objective? Or assault a unit on an objective on the last turn?
I would probably go 2 bolters and las. If you put a las with mortars then you are throwing way some of the use you can get from indirect fire: hiding them out of sight.
Mixed HWTs are a great idea! Didn't realise it was an option until it was just mentioned here. Heavy bolters and mortars have excess survivability and can used mixed squads to donate this to the lascannons.
It also helps stop opponents from sniping out lascannons if they have an all-tank army, or sniping the heavy bolters if it's an all-infantry force.
DoomMouse wrote: With split fire there's basically no disadvantage
There is actually a decent advantage to split fire. If you have three lascannons in one squad, you have to decide how to split them when you fire. If they are in three squads then you can fire one at a tank, see if it dies, then fire another and so on. You don't have to worry about firing 3 lascannons when 2 would do.
vipoid wrote: By the way, what do you guys think are the best weapons for Heavy Weapon Squads?
Expensive weapons like Lascannons or Missile Launchers?
Cheap stuff like Heavy Bolters and Mortars?
Also, do you think there's any value in mixing weapons (e.g. 2 Autocannons and a single Missile Launcher)?
Mortars are probably the best option. Cheap enough to not be a huge loss, while still being able to hide outside LoS and still be effective. The other heavy weapons should probably be hidden in squads, I think.
Looking at the Designer's Notes, am I right in thinking you get a cover save for shooting outside LOS with mortars/artillery?
Edit: +1 save I mean.
From the notes I take it to mean if they would have benefitted from cover if they were in LOS then they still do vs mortars.
I played a couple of games today, and while they aren't enough to draw any conclusions, I know a lot more than simple theory hammer. some of my thoughts:
1) the argument between more buffs/auras or more dudes ignores how cramped deployment zones get with 2000 points of even mixed AM, let along mostly/all infantry. We can dump a lot of dudes on the table, but that doesn't mean they're all going to contribute. I ran one CC in the first game, and two in the second, and I'm glad I had them. "Get back in the fight" "FRFSRF" and "take aim" are the standouts so far.
2) Scions are legit. Full stop. The Prime might honestly be a luxury, as the squads will often be shot to hell after appearing anyway, but in both games they were the primary offensive power.
3) Lascannons do work, but HWSs are fragile. That doesn't mean they aren't worth taking, but expect to lose a HWS a turn.
4) AM will be going last, every time. tournaments might tweak this, but get used to getting alpha struck. 8th edition is savage, and you'll lose 10% or more of your army before anything you get to roll a dice. Side note: both games were kills points, which was an uphill climb.
5) Chimeras are solely for transporting now. Their offensive output hasn't been impressive in a while, but with no fire ports, a -1 to hit for moving, and the overall devaluing of mid strength shooting, the chimera's only job is moving a squad. OTOH, it does that pretty well. Valyries are the same, only more so!
6) Plasma is the clear winner. i'm not saying you should only take plasma guns in every possible slot... but I don't think you'd lose out if you did. Flamers sound cute, but they don't actually ignore cover, and they are erratic. That said, flamers are great against units that are -1 to hit.
7)aside from kill points, the basic infantry squad is solid. 67 points for plasma/LC is a good buy. I also enjoyed squads with heavy bolter, flamer, and power sword. Being able to rapid fire and then charge is great!
8) Compared to other armies, I feel that our vehicles are somewhat limited in their damage. I was deeply unimpressed with the LRBT, and the straight d6 hits and AP1 on the inferno cannon left me a bit cold about hellhounds. My opponent had a stormclaw (or some sort of flying brick space wolfe flyer) and it just murdered my vehicles, while my tanks struggled to accomplish anything.
9) Sentinels, at least with multilasers, are complete trash. They are cheap drops, they pay the Fast Attack tax, and they can engage in some board control, but they actually accomplish nothing. I've heard good things about scout Sentinels with heavy flamers, but they're another 7 more points...
10) Multi-lasers and Autocannons are dead. Dont' even bother with them. Range doens't mean much anymore, and while the D2 and Ap1 of the Autcannon is nice, just spring for a lascannon.
11) mortal wounds are great, and Primaris psykers are a stupidly cheap source of them.
vipoid wrote: Oh, I have a question for you guys - which of the 3 shooting orders (FRFSRK, reroll 1s to-hit, and reroll 1s to-wound) do you use for what situation?
e.g. if you have an infantry squad with plasmagun and lascannon, which of those orders would you favour? Would the target make a difference?
Or if you had a HWS (ruling out FRFSRK), would you go for rerolls to-hit or to-wound?
As a different thread points out rerolling 1s to hit or 1s to damage is exactly the same effectiveness. The only thing that matters if if something special happens on a 1 or a 6. So definitely re-roll your hit rolls with overcharged plasma. If you have snipers, reroll their damage rolls. (Also if you have someone like Harker or Yarrick, reroll damage as you're already rerolling hits). FRF is better, though obviously doesn't help when you're firing special weapons.
11) mortal wounds are great, and Primaris psykers are a stupidly cheap source of them.
True, but if you want cheap Mortal Wounds, look to the Astropath.
For one Primaris Psyker you can get almost three of them.
Here's my math on the difference:
We cast Smite on a 5+ with 2D6, Overcast it on a 11+.
However, Astropaths can only use 1D6 instead of the regular 2D6 for Smite.
Primaris Psyker;
66% chance to cast Smite, 17% chance to Overcast. 17% chance for Perils as well.
Astropath;
33% chance to cast Smite. No chance for Overcast or Perils.
Damage output:
3x Primaris Psyker:
3x 0,66= 1.98, meaning on average one Primaris will fail to cast.
3x 0,17= 0,51. There's a 50% chance that one of them will Overcast and 50% chance that one of them will get Perils.
Let's say for the sake of argument that one Primaris will cast a regular Smite and one will Overcast it, but will also suffer from Perils.
D3 + D6 = average of 5,5 Mortal wounds.
One Primaris suffers 2 mortal wounds himself from Perils.
9x Astropath:
9x 0,33= 2.97, meaning on average three Astropaths will successfully cast Smite.
3x D3: 6 Mortal wounds.
As you can see the difference isn't extreme. However, given how expandable Astropaths are and them having a nice boon if giving Ignore Cover to nearby units gives them my preference.
The fact that they are so expandable also means you can set one up (pretty much on a suicide mission) for a nice Gaze of the Emperor.
Laugh as your opponent forgot to spread out his men to the ONLY THING IN THE GAME WHERE YOU STILL DO IT, MUHAHAHAHA.
Eldar: Farseer
5 Wraithguard with melee stuff
~5 Dire Avengers
~5 Striking Scorpions
~5 Swoopping Hawks
~5 Warp Spiders
Wraithlord
AdMech Tech Priest Dominus
2 Kastelan Robots
3 Either Destroyers or Breachers (no clue which)
1 Dunecrawler
10 Vanguard
5 Rangers (I think) with a single, big sniper rifle
~5 Ruststalkers
Our Opponents:
Chaos Daemon Prince with Wings
Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster
3 Bikes with 2 Meltas
3 Bikes with 2 Meltas
3 Bikes with 2 Meltas
~10 Raptors with 2 Flamers
~8 Warp Talons
~8 Warp Talons
Tyranids Broodlord
Deathleaper
4 Zoanthropes w/ Neurothrope (or something like that)
10 Genestealers
Old One Eye
2 Carnifexes
Exocrine
Tyrannofex w/ 20-shot weapon
It was mostly just a game for trying things out, so none of our lists were optimised. Since this was out first game of 8th, we didn't bother with objectives and instead just opted to kill each other.
Deployment: Admech clustered in and around a building in the centre (save for the unit of Ruststalkers, which went in reserve), Eldar went on the far right (the swooping hawks and scorpions went in reserve). I put my 2 Autocannon teams on the far left of our deployment zone (only place they had good LoS across the table). A Lascannon Infantry squad went in front of one and a Missile Infantry squad went in front of the other. A flamer team went in front of the missile unit. 2 Company Commanders (one with a Plasma Pistol) and a Commissar went in the middle of all of them. My remaining infantry went in the middle of our deployment zone, with the flamer team screening the Admech stuff. Celestine and the remaining officers and commissar went in the middle of them. The Tempestor Prime and Tempestor Command Squads went into reserve.
Chaos bikes went on the left with the daemon prince and bloodthirster just left of centre (warp talons and raptors went into reserve). The carnifexes (inc. Old One Eye), broodlord and genestealers went on the left, Exocrine went in the centre, tyrannofex, gaunts and zoanthropes went on the right. Deathleaper went into reserve.
Enemy Turn 1 They elected to go first and everything moved forward, with the chaos bikes Advancing to get within melta range of our lines. Raptors arrived on the far left (in front of my lascannon team), and both warp talons went on the right (one in front of the dire avengers, another in front of the wraithguard). Shooting inflicted a few casualties to my guard (nothing noteworthy), but meltas took out 2 of the Admech Destroyers/Breachers and the Exocrine obliterated one of the Robots and damaged the other. Ouch. One unit of Warp Talons managed to charge the Wraithguard, the others failed their charges. However, they found themselves outmached - inflicting 2 wounds but taking about 4 back, and then losing a further 2 from morale at the end of the turn.
Our Turn 1
Wraithguard stayed in combat with warp talons, Wraithlord moved up to get near the other warp talons, my middle guys shuffled around a bit to get in range of the bikers, my left lascannon squad moved to make way for some Ruststalkers, which arrived just in front of the Raptors. The swooping hawks also arrived and landed in the top right corner, near the zoanthropes. The Tech Priest repaired the damaged robot.
Shooting from me and Admech wiped out all 3 bike units, along with about half the raptors. They also knocked some wounds off the exocrine. Eldar shooting killed off all but one of the warp talons.
In combat, the Ruststalkers failed their charge, the Wraithlord charge and killed the surviving warp talon and the wraithguard finished off the warp talons in combat with them.
Enemy Turn 2 The daemon prince and raptors moved up, ready to charge my lefthand guardsmen. Meanwhile, the bloodthirster, genestealers and broodlord moved up to threaten my middle guardsmen ("Do your duty, men, those Admech are far more valuable than any of you."). The gaunts moved within range of the wraithguard and the tyrannofex moved to get a bead on my centre guardsmen. Deathleaper arrived behind the Farseer. On the left, the 3 carnifexes plodded up the field, still well out of charge range.
In shooting, the exocrine damaged the remaining Robot (but didn't kill it this time) and the tyrannofex killed some of my middle guardsmen (nothing important). The gaunts managed to get a wraithguard down with sheer volume of shots.
In combat, the daemon prince and raptors charged my front 2 infantry squads on the left (the depleted lascannon squad and flamer squad), killing both. The daemon prince consolidated into my missile team. The genestealers failed their charge, but the broodlord and bloodthirster succeeded in charging my middle guardsmen. They killed all but the sergeant, who managed to put a wound on the broodlord before fleeing (or at least he tried to before the commissar executed him). Deathleaper charged the Farseer but only managed a single wound.
Our Turn 2 I brought my scions down near the carnifexes, with the tempestor prime behind them. My missile team withdrew from the daemon prince and the ruststalkers moved round to get nearer to him. In the middle, my troops moved into rapid fire range of the bloodthirster (save for their HWTs, which remained where they were). Zuriel moved into position to charge either the broodlord or bloodthirster.
Shooting was devastating. The daemon prince and raptors were both obliterated by fire from my guys and the Ruststalkers. Combined fire in the middle knocked the bloodthirster down to just 3 wounds. My scions vaporised one carnifex and left another clinging to life on 2 wounds. I can't remember what happened on the Eldar side.
Zuriel charged the bloodthirster, taking a couple of wounds from overwatch but then killing it.
At this point, the enemy team conceded – the Chaos player had been tabled and the 'nid player was badly outgunned, with many of his units out of position.
I know this was a very short battle but it's the only one I've managed to play thus far so I thought I might as well post it.
I think the main problem for our opponents was that their armies moved at completely different speeds (Chaos was much faster). This allowed us to focus only on the closest units each turn, whilst remaining largely untouched by the others. By the time the nids started to get close, the Chaos stuff was already dead or dying.
Anyway, here are my initial thoughts regarding IG:
- Infantry guard is fun. I think my army took far more of a pounding than either of the others on my team, and it was still relatively intact when the game ended.
- Flamers are meh. I love flamer models and I wanted some in my army if only for the sake of variety, but they really don't do much. The only nice thing was having d6 automatic hits on overwatch.
- Autocannons seem rather poor rubbish. 2 damage is nice. A measly -1AP is not. I think I'll try Heavy Bolters next time (probably worse but also cost a lot less).
- Plasma is wonderful. It was just devastating and pulled far more weight than any of my heavy weapons. When overcharged it was just brutal against multi-wound models.
- Unsurprisingly then, Scion command squads with plasmaguns are fantastic. Their firepower was just devastating, especially when I could land in rapid-fire range of my target. I'm not sure whether the Prime is worth it.
- Company Commanders and Commissars are both really useful. I'm tempted to take plasma pistols on both of them – as these really helped them contribute when the enemy armies reached my lines.
- I really enjoyed having St. Celestine in my army. I don't know if she was the best use of points, but she did some decent work during the game and it was fun to be able to put my HQ in danger, safe in the knowledge that if things went wrong she could resurrect somewhere safe. It was also reassuring to have one unit in my army that could do melee really well.
For anyone interested, my current idea when building IG armies is to create pseudo-platoons and then basically copy and paste them to form the backbone of my army. In this case, I started with this:
Battalion: Company Commander
Company Commander
Commissar
Infantry squad w/ Lascannon, Plasmagun
Infantry squad w/ Missile Launcher, Plasmagun
Infantry Squad w/ Flamer, Plasma Pistol
HWS w/ 3x Autocannon
This gives me a full battalion (giving me 3CP of each of these platoons) and can basically act as a self-contained army on the battlefield. The HWS goes at the back, screened by either the Lascannon or ML squad. Then the remaining infantry squads can go nearer the front and advance as necessary. Each pair gets a company commander and the commissar will go wherever I think needs him most (he's the one element that might overlap with others, so that I can get the best use out of his aura).
I started with two of these in my army, then I added Celestine and the MT stuff (The Scions give my army significant reach without relying on the HWTs having LoS). Finally, I added a few plasma pistols to make up the points.
After this game I'll probably be changing my basic platoons a bit (Autocannons out, Heavy Bolters in), but the basic idea will remain the same. I'm also wondering whether to make the Scions a core part of the army and put one unit of them into each platoon. However, I thought I'd see if anyone had thoughts on building an army this way.
Sorry, this post ended up far longer than I'd intended.
As you can see the difference isn't extreme. However, given how expandable Astropaths are and them having a nice boon if giving Ignore Cover to nearby units gives them my preference.
The fact that they are so expandable also means you can set one up (pretty much on a suicide mission) for a nice Gaze of the Emperor.
Laugh as your opponent forgot to spread out his men to the ONLY THING IN THE GAME WHERE YOU STILL DO IT, MUHAHAHAHA.
What do you guys think?
I agree with your main point that Astropaths are a better option than Primaris but I don't think the Gaze of the Emperor is quite as good as you think it is. The 2D6 inches is fairly random and you have to avoid your own units. Then it only has a 50% chance of causing a mortal wound per enemy unit under the 2D6 line.
DoomMouse wrote: I think it's always going to be a problem with the kill point mechanic. It just gives some armies a straight up advantage over others. If Imperial knights were truly balanced and always did as well as any other army, they should win kill points every time as they only have 4-5 up for grabs. I'd much rather see something along the lines of scoring the points cost for each unit destroyed - even if it is a bit more mathematical...
Easiest way would be Kill Points based on the Power Level of the unit killed. No need to do crazy math and the number is right there in the index to use.
As a different thread points out rerolling 1s to hit or 1s to damage is exactly the same effectiveness. The only thing that matters if if something special happens on a 1 or a 6. So definitely re-roll your hit rolls with overcharged plasma. If you have snipers, reroll their damage rolls. (Also if you have someone like Harker or Yarrick, reroll damage as you're already rerolling hits). FRF is better, though obviously doesn't help when you're firing special weapons.
Not quite. Rerolling a 1 on a 3+ roll is more useful than rerolling a 1 on a 6+ roll. Same odds of each happening, but the success afterward is different. I completely agree with the rest of it though.
One thing we managed to math out was that re-rolling 1s increases your number of expected successes by 1/6 in any situation (so 6 becomes 7, for example), which might actually be a more useful way to look at it.
So for example, 30 6+ rolls is equal to 6 2+ rolls: both would expect 5 successes, so they'd both receive the same total benefit from re-rolling 1s. You can weigh quantity vs quality by boiling both down to the number of expected successes that the re-roll is being applied to.
Though obviously, when the number of rolls is equal, "apply to the strongest roll" still applies. Because when rolling an equal number of dice the stronger roll will expect more successes, which will be further magnified by the re-roll.
I suppose a 5-success equivalence might be a handy quick reference for that purpose.
6+: 30
5+: 15
4+: 10
3+: 7.5 (so effectively 8, since you can't roll half a die)
2+: 6
Using those values, you can quickly compare any two roll values to determine the point at which rolling more dice will out-weigh rolling "better" dice. For example, a 4+ is worth 1.5 5+s, a 3+ is worth 2 5+s. This is also interesting for other applications: if using only lasguns, a 3+ veteran has exactly the same firepower as two 5+ Conscripts. (though as a whole squad they fall behind because the sergeant can't take a lasgun) Convenient, seeing as it's also exactly twice the price. Though using veterans just for their lasguns would be a bit wasteful considering how good their wargear options are.
1 Tempestor, chainsword and boltgun
1 Plasma
1 Melta
2 Hot Shot Lasguns
I have a start collecting box on the way.
I'm thinking of doing:
1 Tempestor Prime
1 Plasma
1 Melta
2 Hot Shot Volly Gun
5 Hot Shot Lasguns
I feel like this would give me some good variety of weapon options for the squad, plus the associated character. I don't want to lock myself into anything too hard, as this is my starting foray into 8th. I'm leaving my orks and space marines on their shelves for now.
Any thoughts? Would a flamer and grenade launcher be worth putting together? They seem a bit lackluster in comparison to the other three weapon types.
As you can see the difference isn't extreme. However, given how expandable Astropaths are and them having a nice boon if giving Ignore Cover to nearby units gives them my preference.
The fact that they are so expandable also means you can set one up (pretty much on a suicide mission) for a nice Gaze of the Emperor.
Laugh as your opponent forgot to spread out his men to the ONLY THING IN THE GAME WHERE YOU STILL DO IT, MUHAHAHAHA.
What do you guys think?
I agree with your main point that Astropaths are a better option than Primaris but I don't think the Gaze of the Emperor is quite as good as you think it is. The 2D6 inches is fairly random and you have to avoid your own units. Then it only has a 50% chance of causing a mortal wound per enemy unit under the 2D6 line.
True, but that's why you throw a sacrifical Astropath to an enemy blob.
On average Emperor's Gaze will be 7". You have to be more than an inch away, but let's say that you create a line of 6" to cover a blob.
You can easily get 10+ models under the beam, meaning you will on average kill 5 of them, meaning the Astropath has already well made up it's cost even if it's just Hormagaunts or Boyz.
Keep in mind that you can move + advance and then still cast psychic abilities, to help get you as close as possible and cover as many models as possible with the beam.
Heck, even if you get four terminators covered in it. You will take down one termi, well worth it!
Emperor's Gaze is also a lot easier to cast (6 or higher, 59,3%) compared to the Astropath's 33% for Smite.
And bonus points if you Perils with double 6 and blow yourself up, taking even more guys with you
1 Tempestor, chainsword and boltgun
1 Plasma
1 Melta
2 Hot Shot Lasguns
I have a start collecting box on the way.
I'm thinking of doing:
1 Tempestor Prime
1 Plasma
1 Melta
2 Hot Shot Volly Gun
5 Hot Shot Lasguns
I feel like this would give me some good variety of weapon options for the squad, plus the associated character. I don't want to lock myself into anything too hard, as this is my starting foray into 8th. I'm leaving my orks and space marines on their shelves for now.
Any thoughts? Would a flamer and grenade launcher be worth putting together? They seem a bit lackluster in comparison to the other three weapon types.
I would advise you to build as many plasma dudes as possible, with a pinch of meltaguns for good measure. Hot shot volley guns are mediocre.
GW still sells packs of 5 plasmaguns in their Finecast line. They come with a right SM hand that would not be out of place on a scion model.
This is the most direct way to have a lot of this very useful weapon without paying absurd amounts of money from bitz ebay stores.
To switch gears a litte, if you can support a backfield and protect it, I.E. conscripts and maybe some Bullgyrn,is there any reason to not bring 2-3 Manticores?
They seem very well positioned, as long as you can prevent alpha strikes/deepstrikes. Their price seems competitive, especially compared to LRs.
One Manticore, certainly, two most probably if you like it, tree is maybe too many.
The manticore is not an all-purpose ordnance tank, it is best at chasing down heavy stuff like transports, monsters, multi-wound heavy infantry. You will still need to dedicate some slots to deal with lighter and more numerous targets. For this work you will need units like mortars HWS , wyverns, dakka leman russ.
Yeah I agree, you need the balance.My whole thought process is that HWT Mortars are so cheap, that a backfield of Manticores and Mortars would compliment each other well. It's just about protecting them.
I wonder if a full Dakka version of Pask would work. 225 points for Gatling, 3x HB, Heavy Stubber. It's a cheaper verison and all those shots are hitting on 2's until you take dmg.
As you can see the difference isn't extreme. However, given how expandable Astropaths are and them having a nice boon if giving Ignore Cover to nearby units gives them my preference.
The fact that they are so expandable also means you can set one up (pretty much on a suicide mission) for a nice Gaze of the Emperor.
Laugh as your opponent forgot to spread out his men to the ONLY THING IN THE GAME WHERE YOU STILL DO IT, MUHAHAHAHA.
What do you guys think?
I agree with your main point that Astropaths are a better option than Primaris but I don't think the Gaze of the Emperor is quite as good as you think it is. The 2D6 inches is fairly random and you have to avoid your own units. Then it only has a 50% chance of causing a mortal wound per enemy unit under the 2D6 line.
True, but that's why you throw a sacrifical Astropath to an enemy blob.
On average Emperor's Gaze will be 7". You have to be more than an inch away, but let's say that you create a line of 6" to cover a blob.
You can easily get 10+ models under the beam, meaning you will on average kill 5 of them, meaning the Astropath has already well made up it's cost even if it's just Hormagaunts or Boyz.
Keep in mind that you can move + advance and then still cast psychic abilities, to help get you as close as possible and cover as many models as possible with the beam.
Heck, even if you get four terminators covered in it. You will take down one termi, well worth it!
Emperor's Gaze is also a lot easier to cast (6 or higher, 59,3%) compared to the Astropath's 33% for Smite.
And bonus points if you Perils with double 6 and blow yourself up, taking even more guys with you
JB wrote: You still do not understand how it works. If your 7 inch line covers 1 model or 10 models from the same unit, your astropath has a 50% chance to cause one mortal wound to the unit. It does not attack each model.
"Roll a dice for each model the centre of the line passes over. On a 4+ that model's unit suffers a mortal wound."
So if you cover 10 models, you roll 10 dice, get 5 4+ and the unit takes 5 mortal wounds.
EDIT: And now you have me thinking of adding a few more astropaths since all five available psyker powers have some utility. While I cannot use the same power twice, other than Smite, in each turn, I can find a good use for Pyschic Barrier every turn and the others will likely be useful against any army that likes to assault. May not be so useful versus other gunline armies due to the short range of the powers.
Aw, but you are supposed to twist the meaning of the rule until we are arguing about models having eyes or not! Stop being so mature!
(-:
I'm not sure I like how disposable astropaths seem to be. They seem really suited to getting stuck in, denying some cover and using gaze to get some cheap wounds in. This seems weird when in the fluff they are quite rare and would never even be used on a battlefield.
"Roll a dice for each model the centre of the line passes over. On a 4+ that model's unit suffers a mortal wound."
So if you cover 10 models, you roll 10 dice, get 5 4+ and the unit takes 5 mortal wounds.
It could be really powerful to drop an Astropath out of a Valkyrie since you could get the distance to put him wherever you wanted for maximum damage on the Gaze.
I will try using just two astropaths in a 2000 point list. I have been using one and he only cast Smite over and over again. I should have used him to cast Psychic Barrier on Pask's tank, whenever a target was not available for Smite.
EDIT: I only have six games of 8th edition so far and my local meta is not using many psykers yet.
Disregarding a baneblade with 4 twin heavy flamer sponsons (very much worth it, considering its alot of focused overwatch firepower, and that it can overwatch even if it is in assault). Ive found that taurox prime with gatling cannon and hot-shot volley guns are the best anti horde option AM currently has. 3+ ballistic skill, 20 str 4 shots and 8 str 4 -2ap shots, all on a decently durable vehicle for just 96 pts.
ThePie wrote: Disregarding a baneblade with 4 twin heavy flamer sponsons (very much worth it, considering its alot of focused overwatch firepower, and that it can overwatch even if it is in assault). Ive found that taurox prime with gatling cannon and hot-shot volley guns are the best anti horde option AM currently has. 3+ ballistic skill, 20 str 4 shots and 8 str 4 -2ap shots, all on a decently durable vehicle for just 96 pts.
Yeah but I really hate playing parking lot vehicles, I much prefer moving around with them. Which makes me lean towards fireball russes, hellhounds and flamer chimera. I may even pick back up the armoured lists I used to run if the FW index gives me some good things. The Death Riders already look good and would suit my cold one cadians quite well.
For their points, the Taurox Prime with gatling and volley is one of the better, if not the best, antihorde weaponry of all the imperium, or maybe of all 40k. The same could be said about the plasma scion elites with primer against multiwound enemies.
Plasma Scions were absoultely stunning as adjuncts to my Adepta Sororitas against Orks at 1000 points. They completely shut down two units of Warbikers that were on the way to ruin my backfield. Totally awesome.
I've got two orders of Forge World's Hostile Environment Troopers with Plasma on the way to match my existing Kasrkin. Once I backfill with some extra plastic Cadians I have around, I'll be able to deploy six min/maxed squads for a Brigade.
Do you guys think the Baneblade variants are more worthwhile to bring than a Knight for a LoW? They seem to have better shooting from a glance, but not as good combat (which makes sense).
I'm thinking of building my next army around a nice big model like a LoW, still deciding which ones to look at.
Requizen wrote: Do you guys think the Baneblade variants are more worthwhile to bring than a Knight for a LoW? They seem to have better shooting from a glance, but not as good combat (which makes sense).
I'm thinking of building my next army around a nice big model like a LoW, still deciding which ones to look at.
The Baneblande tanks are stonking great in combat. Can freely shoot out of it, has a pretty strong attack AND can't be targeted by shooting. 9 attacks at Ws 5+ S9 AP-2 Dd3 isn't something to scoff at.
Requizen wrote: Do you guys think the Baneblade variants are more worthwhile to bring than a Knight for a LoW? They seem to have better shooting from a glance, but not as good combat (which makes sense).
I'm thinking of building my next army around a nice big model like a LoW, still deciding which ones to look at.
The Baneblande tanks are stonking great in combat. Can freely shoot out of it, has a pretty strong attack AND can't be targeted by shooting. 9 attacks at Ws 5+ S9 AP-2 Dd3 isn't something to scoff at.
True! I've always been intrigued by a Guard army but the idea of building/painting so many dudes is pretty daunting to me. But it seems now that mechanized (or at least more vehicles than before) is more viable than in 7th?
Requizen wrote: Do you guys think the Baneblade variants are more worthwhile to bring than a Knight for a LoW? They seem to have better shooting from a glance, but not as good combat (which makes sense).
I'm thinking of building my next army around a nice big model like a LoW, still deciding which ones to look at.
The Baneblande tanks are stonking great in combat. Can freely shoot out of it, has a pretty strong attack AND can't be targeted by shooting. 9 attacks at Ws 5+ S9 AP-2 Dd3 isn't something to scoff at.
True! I've always been intrigued by a Guard army but the idea of building/painting so many dudes is pretty daunting to me. But it seems now that mechanized (or at least more vehicles than before) is more viable than in 7th?
Indeed, Taurox Prime to deal with hordes, with plasma scions embarked that can deal with any heavy and elite targets. A shadowsword baneblade with 4 sponsons (each with twin heavy flamer and lascannons) will be able to deal with every single type of target in the game, especially titanic units like wraith knights and imperial knights.
Kaeldran wrote: Why embark the plasma scions instead of just deepstrike them when and where they are most needed?
Seriously, you can get 9 Stormtroopers with Hellguns for less points than the cheapest possible Chimera. As is the Chimera is either an expensive transport that is only good at transporting and surviving or an overpriced weapon plattform compared to other available Chimera chassis variants as all your shots will only hit on 5+ as soon as you move (and you know, that's what a transport is there for). And yes, that includes the Flamer Chimera (hello there 105 point heavy flamer Bane Wolf, you sexy little beast~).
One of the reasons that Scions are so good is not that they are undercosted or overpowered (slightly too cheap Plasma guns aside, 9-10 points for a plasma gun would be fine too, but hellgun scions for the first time are finally at a good spot for 10 points now compared to bolter nuns and SM), it's simply that they massively benefit from having the super awesome teleport deployment that saves you a gazillion points in Chimeras that you would have to invest for mechanized vets. If you want your Scion squads to be more survivable (to hold objectives better, have more ablative wounds for your specials and also to benefit more from orders with fewer Primes (1 Tempestor Prime for 2 full Scion Squads is a massive amount of 1s to hit re-rolling dakka) then just deploy full squads of 10 with 4 special weapons.
Have people been using Infantry squads? It looks like a lot of people are skipping them either for just Conscript blobs or doing Spearhead detachment and taking tanks on tanks.
Requizen wrote: Have people been using Infantry squads? It looks like a lot of people are skipping them either for just Conscript blobs or doing Spearhead detachment and taking tanks on tanks.
I'm taking infantry squads over conscripts. Mainly because I'm using them as the core of my army - not just to bubble-wrap a vehicle.
Currently, I have 2 builds:
- Infantry with plasmagun and lascannon or missile launcher.
- Infantry with plasma pistol and flamer
The first build can either sit on an objective or else advance up the field. The second build is meant for advancing and/or screening a more valuable squad.
The main things I'm considering at the moment is:
- Is it worth giving plasma pistols to the sergeants of mid- or back-field infantry squads?
- Is it worth giving heavy bolters to the advancing/screening squads?
Requizen wrote: Have people been using Infantry squads? It looks like a lot of people are skipping them either for just Conscript blobs or doing Spearhead detachment and taking tanks on tanks.
Let's make a short summary of what Infantry squads offer over Conscripts for a measly 1 extra PPM:
- Leadership 7 instead of 4. Infantry Squads benefit from Commissars alot, but Conscripts NEED one around or half the blob will run away after the first few casualties (and we all know how potent snipers are this edition, particularly Rattlings). If the enemy has snipers and murders even just one of your commissars (let alone two or three) then the Conscripts turn into dead weight. My list will for example have 10 rattlings for only 70pts who will do that really well.
-A free Sergeant with 3 attacks in close combat and Leadership 7. The Sarge alone has the same amount of attacks as 9 points worth of Conscripts while hitting on 4+ instead of 5+. He can also get a Boltgun (while keeping the Chainsword) for only 1 point which while not being much does benefit alot from take aim and supporting heavier weapons (remember that Bolters wound anything up to T7 on a 5+)
- Hit on 4+ both in close combat and with their ranged weapons instead of 5+. Particularly in close combat conscripts will do nothing but put extra bodies between you and the enemy. Even with a hundred attacks you will only end up with a MEQ unit having to take 11 armour saves.
- While you need more officers than for big conscript units, Infantry squads benefit from FRFSRF and Take Aim! much more thanks to their higher BS. You can also take a vox, which means the officer won't have to be within 6" of the squad (leaving him vulnerable to getting tied up in close combat as well).
- Being able to take Special and Heavy Weapons is huge. Lascannon HWS are extremely squishy high-point value targets that will get wiped fast (even with cheaper teams thrown in, they are still only T3 models with a 5+ save even with 2 wounds) which are much safer and more reliable embedded in infantry squads. 5pt Grenade Launchers and 7pt Plasma Guns are great for those units, while cheap speedbump squads with a flamer (47 points) or flamer+ HB (55 points) make for excellent and expendable screening and charge blocking units. With a vox also much easier to order for commanders (remember that an officer needs to be within 6" of a HWS to do so) and the rest of the squad, particularly the special, benefits from Take Aim! a lot too.
- Infantry squads can throw grenades much more efficiently. While not much you probably WILL do that once the enemy is within the 6" range (particularly with the sarge if he only got his pistol) for example after a failed charge and especially in overwatch against short range charges.
- Concript overwatch might be "as good" as the overwatch of Infantry Squads, but without the option of having a flamer and it will also achieve almost nothing even against T3 hordes once you start calculating the numbers
- If you want Conscripts to do anything then you need a whole bunch of points in support characters, even moreso if you actually want them to inflict any damage
- No insane headache of having to buy, paint, deploy and move giant blobs of Conscripts that might well be nerfed once the Codex or first Chapter Approved Rules update rolls out. Math- and Theoryhammer is all nice and good until you actually have to deploy those blobs on the table and many of them won't do much with their 24" range BB guns on a 72" board if the enemy spreads out. Not to mention getting them all into close combat or rapid-fire range if they do get charged
- Rules aside, Infantry squads get you more bang for your quids and bucks and can save you a whole lot of money if you put a heavy weapon team in them (which replaces two models in the unit... which you can then use to build another heavy weapon team with a spare 60mm base or even an entire new squad if you got 8 spares) and we all know how expensive playing Guard is to begin with, it adds up quickly. Also infantry squads with all the Sarges, voxes and special weapons have much more individuality than just dozens of dudes with lasguns which makes them nicer to look at and more bearable to paint
Sure, Conscripts are good, but not necessarily superior to Infantry squads, particularly from a flexibility point of view with their cheap special and heavy weapons and much better accuracy and close combat ability (pretty bad but not complete trash like Concripts) for 1 point.
The main things I'm considering at the moment is:
- Is it worth giving plasma pistols to the sergeants of mid- or back-field infantry squads?
- Is it worth giving heavy bolters to the advancing/screening squads?
I would give all your 3+ to hit characters a plasma pistol before handing them out to your sarges, makes them more efficient and keeps them in the game much longer while the price stays the same. Give every Scion/Stormtrooper Sarge one though if the points allow, you are guaranteed to deploy them in range and they benefit as much from Take Aim! as all the plasma guns do. Also Hotshot-pistols are crap and not worth the point you pay for them, so plasma pistols are only 4 points as an upgrade over them.
Thinking about the HBs myself, but I think they are definitely worth the points, especially for all-comers lists. If you end up fighting other IG or Tau players the squad can still contribute besides being a teleport/infiltration denial wall. I'll include them simply for saving money as well until I got more money for another box or two of snapfit Cadians to pluck holes in units if I leave the HWTs out.
In addition, infantry squads are much better at filling out troop requirements in detachments for more command points.
And what do people think about las cannons vs missile launchers? While las cannons are superior against heavy targets, would the lesser power of missile launchers be worth for the versatility of being able to help deal with hordes?
Oh and another question, which baneblade variant do people think is the superior one, im kind of torn between the Shadowsword and the Doomhammer. On one hand, the shadowsword is extremely good at eliminating big targets, especially titanic ones since it gets +1 ballistic skill and gets to reroll to wound against such targets. On the other hand, the doom hammer is decently effective against big targets as well, and it can transport and protect your squishy heavy weapons teams.
I would give all your 3+ to hit characters a plasma pistol before handing them out to your sarges, makes them more efficient and keeps them in the game much longer while the price stays the same. Give every Scion/Stormtrooper Sarge one though if the points allow, you are guaranteed to deploy them in range and they benefit as much from Take Aim! as all the plasma guns do. Also Hotshot-pistols are crap and not worth the point you pay for them, so plasma pistols are only 4 points as an upgrade over them.
Thinking about the HBs myself, but I think they are definitely worth the points, especially for all-comers lists. If you end up fighting other IG or Tau players the squad can still contribute besides being a teleport/infiltration denial wall. I'll include them simply for saving money as well until I got more money for another box or two of snapfit Cadians to pluck holes in units if I leave the HWTs out.
That's great advice on both counts. Thank you very much.
And what do people think about las cannons vs missile launchers? While las cannons are superior against heavy targets, would the lesser power of missile launchers be worth for the versatility of being able to help deal with hordes?
I haven't made my mind up yet. My current plan is to use a 50/50 split and see which performs best.
However, I'd probably lean a bit towards the lascannon. Mostly because I already have Lasguns and FRFSRF for anti-infantry (and plasma for anti-heavy infantry), but I lack weapons that can do a lot of wounds to a single target in one shot.
Also, I think the ML's Frag mode overlaps a lot with Heavy Bolters and Mortas, whilst there isn't really anything that can stand in for Lascannons that way.
Regardless, I plan to try both and see each performs.
I f I were to start an army around a Baneblade variant (probably Shadowsword, but eyeing up Banehammer or Stormlord), do you guys find it better to supplement with mostly Infantry, mostly Tanks, or a mix of the two?
Semi-related question - with objectives still being the way to win games and now being based on number of models in range, is it worth taking Transports for units to get them on the field or is it better to just sit back and blow things up and not move out until T4/T5?
ThePie wrote: Oh and another question, which baneblade variant do people think is the superior one, im kind of torn between the Shadowsword and the Doomhammer. On one hand, the shadowsword is extremely good at eliminating big targets, especially titanic ones since it gets +1 ballistic skill and gets to reroll to wound against such targets. On the other hand, the doom hammer is decently effective against big targets as well, and it can transport and protect your squishy heavy weapons teams.
The Shadowsword looks really nice but it depends on what enemies you are going to see. If infantry hordes become common then a Shadowsword is not going to be great. I'm really liking the look of a flamer Hellhammer. It is very expensive but a beast in melee combat and overwatch. No unit will want to charge a unit with 8 heavy flamers, especially if it can just sit in combat and fire like nothing is wrong. The baneblade variants are now extremely good in close combat, it may be a surprise to your opponent if you are hyper aggressive with them.
Requizen wrote: I f I were to start an army around a Baneblade variant (probably Shadowsword, but eyeing up Banehammer or Stormlord), do you guys find it better to supplement with mostly Infantry, mostly Tanks, or a mix of the two?
Semi-related question - with objectives still being the way to win games and now being based on number of models in range, is it worth taking Transports for units to get them on the field or is it better to just sit back and blow things up and not move out until T4/T5?
I can't answer your first question because I have neither the interest nor the inclination to use super-heavies.
As to your second question, I've got two thoughts on the matter:
1) If I was going to take a transport, it would be one of the MT ones as I find the Chimera expensive and lacklustre at best.
2) I don't think not taking a transport equates to not advancing. At the moment, I'm playing IG armies with 0 vehicles in them, but I still plan to advance about half my units early on. Indeed, with orders like 'Forwards for the Emperor!' and 'Move! Move! Move!', I'd argue that infantry really don't need transports to quickly make their way up the field. And for the price of a couple of Chimera, you can probably have about 3 infantry squads - so you'll have more bodies to advance and soak up wounds. What's more, this is the edition with the fewest drawbacks to moving. Your heavy weapons used to only hit on 6s after moving, now they hit on 5s - that's literally twice the odds.
Also, don't discount stuff like Scions who can drop down into your opponent's back field to further increase your reach (without needing transports).
Transports are still a big deal if you want to try and go first. And going first is very powerful. I'm thinking of mechanizing all my infantry and characters for this reason alone. The Chimera with dual HF is no slouch in the damage department either.
Otto von Bludd wrote: Transports are still a big deal if you want to try and go first. And going first is very powerful. I'm thinking of mechanizing all my infantry and characters for this reason alone. The Chimera with dual HF is no slouch in the damage department either.
So, you take turns setting up units. If you deploy a transport, do you also implicitly deploy all of its passengers? Or do I have to say "I deploy this Chimera." "You deploy x" "I deploy this infantry squad inside the Chimera." and so on?
Otto von Bludd wrote: Transports are still a big deal if you want to try and go first. And going first is very powerful. I'm thinking of mechanizing all my infantry and characters for this reason alone. The Chimera with dual HF is no slouch in the damage department either.
So, you take turns setting up units. If you deploy a transport, do you also implicitly deploy all of its passengers? Or do I have to say "I deploy this Chimera." "You deploy x" "I deploy this infantry squad inside the Chimera." and so on?
Yes, Transports in the basic rules say "When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately - declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up"
That means you can deploy like 4-8 units in a Stormlord (depending on their sizes) as a single drop.
That means you can deploy like 4-8 units in a Stormlord (depending on their sizes) as a single drop.
That was exactly what I was thinking. Sounds like I have a potential alternative to not going last every time.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, trying to find edge cases where Veterans work. . Incoming rabbit hole.
Idea 1:
Foot? Probably too squishy to make it, though if you run them like infantry it might not be too bad, but naked they're the cost of my power infantry squads.
Idea 2:
Chimeras? Adds 93 points to the unit, and it has to survive long enough for them to bail out to attack since they can't shoot out the top anymore (unless I missed something).
Thinking...
Uhh... Valkyrie Grav Chute disembarks models, stating that they must be 9" away, but it's not reinforcements, it's disembarkation. That means they can still move/advance after disembarking, right? Vets have a lot of weapons, lets see how that works:
Crazy rabbit hole idea!
Okay, how about vets (3 x PG, PP and PF) with a Priest (Eviscerator, PG) and a Commissar (PP, PF) in a Valkyrie? They can get an almost guaranteed charge turn 1, which is impossible anywhere else in guard that I can see. Shooting they get average 4.8 dead MEQ and assaulting they get average 3.5 dead MEQ. With all the plasma, PFs and Eviscerators, they have the potential to tear up characters, and with the assault, you put something in the position of not being able to shoot on its next turn because it either has to stick in melee or fall back. That's 217 points though, not counting the Valk, so it's probably not worth it though. Dropping the Priest reduces the shooting to 4.3 dead MEQ and 1.7 dead MEQ, but it drops the point cost to 147 points, which probably makes it more point efficient. Vets (and commissar) are about 24.5 points per average MEQ killed Interesting, but doesn't make its points up in one turn..
Valkyrie is 160 points with the default options, which halves the Vet efficiency, or 162 with the rocket pods (which is probably how I'd do it. I'd probably toss the lascannon on there too for funsies, so 172. That's pricey. How does it do? Well, not great against MEQ. That gets us .5 MEQ dead for the shooting. Yikes, not so good. The heavy bolters increase this to .66 dead MEQ, but probably not enough to justify the points. That's fine. Maybe it's better at hard targets. With the LC/Hellstrike, that gets us about .29 unsaved wounds on a T8 eq. Not great either for the points.
By comparison, 5 man 2x Plasma scions with a PP are 69 points. They don't require the Valk, but get 2.2 dead MEQ on average between hotshot and plasma. They also probably don't get the assault though. Let's double them to make up for the point difference: That gives us 4.4 average dead MEQ for 138 points, or 31.36 points per average MEQ killed. Well, they don't make their points up in a turn either.
So the totals there for the Valk and Vets is 319, or 66.46 per dead MEQ, and the Scions are 138, or 31.36 points per dead MEQ. That's not great for Vets, though they get to force something to not shoot for a round, and can do it turn 1. There's definitely some utility there, but if that's your only point, there could well be more cost effective ways of doing that, like 3 command squads armed with plasmas that jump out of the Valk, because then you could charge three things. Even more lulzy is 12 acolytes bailing out. Turn 1 charge up to 12 things that are horrible at close combat in the hopes of surviving long enough to deny them shooting on their turn? Sign me up.
Anyone have any thoughts on what Vets are for then?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Dropping the commissar actually makes the efficiency of the vets + valk go up overall. 49.4 points per average MEQ killed. Still not better than the scions, at least, point for point.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, as long as I'm going crazy, apparently you don't have to take full strength squads as long as you pay full price for them.
So you can put three squads of three man strong sws into a Valkyrie, along with three platoon commanders to give them orders, then rush them to 3 inches away with meltas and demo packs.
I'll have to price that when I'm not just on my phone, but Jesus I think that one wins.
Heh I've had a similar idea with using the Valkyrie.
My first one is quite similar:
-Vets with Shotguns, 3x Meltagun, 1x Heavy Flamer + Plasma Pistol/Power Axe
-Platoon Commander + Plasma Pistol/Power Axe to give them rerolling 1's
+ either a Commissar or a Priest
to kill big monsters or enemy tanks
The Second Idea vs. horde armies was:
3x4 Command Squads with Flamethrowers. Which would be 12d6 autohits, that will get rid of a 20 man ork unit if need be.
The Valk is definitely a great place to deploy flamers and meltas from. Much better than deepstrike due to the fact that you can get in range, but you do pay for it. 2 Melta Command squads with 2 Platoon Commanders could be interesting.
Okay, so the valk with the melta/demo SWS and Harker above:
It's about 390 points (depending on options) for everything, including the Valk. But the SWS average about 18.9 damage by themselves on average to a land raider (!) if they have Harker's reroll. I think I calc'ed the probability on the rolls to hit properly there. Should come out to about 80% or so. Anyway, so that's an overkilled Land Raider on average, and you still get to fire Harker and the Valkyrie and assault with all of the above.
It's a lot of points, but I think it might be my alpha strike goto. Only way you can really stop it is by screening your vehicles. But since the occupants can move after deploying, their screen really has to be at least 3" in front of the targets otherwise you can still be within melta range, and 9" in front of the target to deny firing the meltas at all.
Only thing I might do different is mix in some plasma instead. Cheaper, and it's more universal, though that would mean probably not popping land raiders, it would still give me some good turn 1 options.
Or, you're playing against horde players, in which case you just hang back and blast with the rocket pods and use the occupants as late game objective takers, maybe tossing Harker in with the rest of your army to buff them instead.
Now to convert me a Mordian... err, "Catachan" Harker model...
KommissarKiln wrote: I don't think those ideas will quite work because the sws requires 6 dudes. Maybe a sws, and command squad, a (company) commander and Harker?
No, no. That's the hilarious thing. They look like they require six dudes. They should require six dudes. But they don't and it's the craziest thing I've ever seen!
daedalus wrote: Okay, so the valk with the melta/demo SWS and Harker above:
It's about 390 points (depending on options) for everything, including the Valk. But the SWS average about 18.9 damage by themselves on average to a land raider (!) if they have Harker's reroll. I think I calc'ed the probability on the rolls to hit properly there. Should come out to about 80% or so. Anyway, so that's an overkilled Land Raider on average, and you still get to fire Harker and the Valkyrie and assault with all of the above.
It's a lot of points, but I think it might be my alpha strike goto. Only way you can really stop it is by screening your vehicles. But since the occupants can move after deploying, their screen really has to be at least 3" in front of the targets otherwise you can still be within melta range, and 9" in front of the target to deny firing the meltas at all.
Only thing I might do different is mix in some plasma instead. Cheaper, and it's more universal, though that would mean probably not popping land raiders, it would still give me some good turn 1 options.
Or, you're playing against horde players, in which case you just hang back and blast with the rocket pods and use the occupants as late game objective takers, maybe tossing Harker in with the rest of your army to buff them instead.
Now to convert me a Mordian... err, "Catachan" Harker model...
I don't see how you get anywhere near 18.9 damage. The SWS can only take 2 meltas and a demo charge. They have half a chance to hit, half chance to wound, and the attacks from the demo charge also have to overcome a 6+ save. But .5 melta shots + .875 demo charge doesn't equal a dead land raider. More like 4 damage? Drop 390 points of plasma scions instead.
edit: So even if you field 2 SWS, that's still like 8 damage. You can't field 3 because you can only field one under-strength unit per type. In this particular case, you'd also be claiming you don't have 3 more guardsmen with lasguns, which is unlikely to win you any friends.
I don't see how you get anywhere near 18.9 damage. The SWS can only take 2 meltas and a demo charge. They have half a chance to hit, half chance to wound, and the attacks from the demo charge also have to overcome a 6+ save. But .5 melta shots + .875 demo charge doesn't equal a dead land raider. More like 4 damage? Drop 390 points of plasma scions instead.
I was assuming that, given the 9" distance from the enemy during your deploy, and you move 6" forward, you'd be well within melta range. That makes average damage around 5-6 per melta shot. I was also trying to math the reroll of a 1 from Harker into the math. I think I was speculating a 70% chance on that. Maybe that was too high? It's definitely better than 50% though.
390 points of scions is 12 plasma guns (and a whole lot more dakka on top of that). That's 24 shots, at BS3+ that's 14.6 hits, At S8, that's 7.3 saves, which is 5.3 unsaved, which is 14.6 wounds. You lost 4 gunners also, It'd get you some nasty damage, sure, but guard are cheap enough to afford to specialize, and having a portion of your army specialized to alpha strike the front half of theirs immediately is a reasonable expenditure of points.
edit: So even if you field 2 SWS, that's still like 8 damage. You can't field 3 because you can only field one under-strength unit per type.
So, I can only have one. Fair enough. That's fine, because you could still do two command squads with 4 melta and a (reduced strength) sws with 2 melta and a demo pack.
So, 10 melta at probably.. you know, lets actually do about 60% chance (just to be safe) to hit, 50% chance to wound, and 83.3% chance to bypass armor, and 2d6 wounds drop highest--which sits much closer to the 5-6 range.
10 * .6 * .5 * .833 * = 2.5 unsaved and then 2.5 * 5.5 = about 13.75
Demo pack
1 * 3.5 (average on d6) * .6 * .5 * .667 = 0.7 unsaved and then 0.7 * 2 (average on d3) = 1.4
Okay, so that's 15.15 wounds to a land raider. A bit better than the Scions, but then you can assault with these turn 1. That's not going to do anything much to slow down an assaulty army, but anything that survives getting beat on prevents the opponent from firing that thing turn one. That's something the scions won't be able to do. And it's really cheap enough that it's not like you don't have points to take the plasmascions either. The idea here is so that you don't have to spend your plasma firing at a land raider or something equally nasty, and can use them for popping characters/rhinos/xenos paper vehicles/wraithlords.
In this particular case, you'd also be claiming you don't have 3 more guardsmen with lasguns, which is unlikely to win you any friends.
Maybe. I play Mordian Iron Guard. They're difficult to get your hands on nowadays.
I don't see how you get anywhere near 18.9 damage. The SWS can only take 2 meltas and a demo charge. They have half a chance to hit, half chance to wound, and the attacks from the demo charge also have to overcome a 6+ save. But .5 melta shots + .875 demo charge doesn't equal a dead land raider. More like 4 damage? Drop 390 points of plasma scions instead.
I was assuming that, given the 9" distance from the enemy during your deploy, and you move 6" forward, you'd be well within melta range. That makes average damage around 5-6 per melta shot. I was also trying to math the reroll of a 1 from Harker into the math. I think I was speculating a 70% chance on that. Maybe that was too high? It's definitely better than 50% though.
2d6 pick highest is 4.5 average :( Rerolling 1s bumps them to 58.333%. It's 1/6th chance of 1/2 a hit :(
390 points of scions is 12 plasma guns (and a whole lot more dakka on top of that). That's 24 shots, at BS3+ that's 14.6 hits, At S8, that's 7.3 saves, which is 5.3 unsaved, which is 14.6 wounds. You lost 4 gunners also, It'd get you some nasty damage, sure, but guard are cheap enough to afford to specialize, and having a portion of your army specialized to alpha strike the front half of theirs immediately is a reasonable expenditure of points.
You can get 4 plasma guns for 64 points on the scion command squad. 390 is 6+ or better yet add a tempestor prime at 40 points for every two squads and they also reroll their 1s to hit. You could easily drop 16 guns, 2 primes for that and not worry that their transport gets shot up before they arrive. Granted, they won't really be going far afterwards, but I'd expect the enemy to shoot either squad up afterwards anyway.
So, 10 melta at probably.. you know, lets actually do about 60% chance (just to be safe) to hit, 50% chance to wound, and 83.3% chance to bypass armor, and 2d6 wounds drop highest--which sits much closer to the 5-6 range.
10 * .6 * .5 * .833 * = 2.5 unsaved and then 2.5 * 5.5 = about 13.75
13.12 (assuming no saves). 11.375 otherwise. So close.
And it's really cheap enough that it's not like you don't have points to take the plasmascions either. The idea here is so that you don't have to spend your plasma firing at a land raider or something equally nasty, and can use them for popping characters/rhinos/xenos paper vehicles/wraithlords.
A single squad of plasma scions is 64 points. 400ish points isn't cheap. If the enemy doesn't have any landraiders, you can deploy them all over the opponent's face and shoot up many targets.
A sws with 2 meltaguns and a demolitión charge is 53 points, a valkirie can transport two of them (or 2 + plus Harker with one under max strenght). The valks themself are 170 a piece, with lascannon, Harker is 50 pts, with 4 sws the total is 602 points.
That is 8 meltas not 10, with BS4+ rerolling 1 (hit 7 of 12 times) and causing each one 9/2 damage at average instead 7/2 for being at 6" or less.
So, 8 * 7/12 * 1/2 * 5/6 * 9/2 = 70/8, nearly 9 damage at average against a land raider.
The 4 demolitión charge will do:
4 * 7/2 * 7/12 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 2 = 49/12, about 4 more damage.
And we have 11 lasgun at close range
22 * 7/12 * 1/6 * 1/6 = 77/216, probably they will do nothing to a land raider, but every bit of a chance counts.
Valk is 170 pts with lasscannon and missiles, but she have to shot heavy weapons after moving, so BS5+, and a valk can't be catachan, so Harker can't do nothing for her, so she will do:
1/3 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 7/2 + 1/3 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 9/2 = 7/8 each, 7/4 the two of them, of damage at average to a land raider.
Harker himself is 50pts, and will shoot well with a good weapon:
3 * 7/9 * 1/3 * 1/2 = 7/18 at average against a land raider.
And then everybody charge, to a land raider, because catachans have balls of steel instead of brain.
23/2 of bits for the sws, and 8/3 for Harker, all with 1/6 of damage, 1/6 of passing the armor, about 4/9 of average damage, but as with the lasgun, everything count.
Total 70/8 + 49/12 + 13/36 + 7/4 + 7/18 + 4/9 = 142/9, nearly 16 damage to a land raider, impresive but. Is actually so impresive for 700 points.
8 tempestus command squads, with 4 plasmagun each, and 4 tempestor prime with command rod to give orders to every INE, and force axes just for the badass look, are 692 points.
They can deepstrike at plasma close range to 64 shots at BS3+ thanks to the orders reroling 1, so they can shoot oveegarge and take only 1 or 2 cassualties for their own guns instead about 11.
64 * 7/9 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 2 = 896/27, more than 33 average damage, two land raider, and without charge, with perfecto deep strike, without the risk of the transport being destroyed before arrive the destination, and far far more usefull against other units.
KommissarKiln wrote: I don't think those ideas will quite work because the sws requires 6 dudes. Maybe a sws, and command squad, a (company) commander and Harker?
No, no. That's the hilarious thing. They look like they require six dudes. They should require six dudes. But they don't and it's the craziest thing I've ever seen!
Check Page 242, "Understrength Units".
I forgot that was even a thing. Loophole exploitation ftw, I guess.
Only one squad could be "under strenght" and only if you actually haven't the models to complete it. It hard to tell tour oponent, "sorry dude, but really really I have no more lasgun guardsmen", but even then, you can transport Harker and two sws, one without a guarda to ley Harker in.
That was 4 meltaguns, 2 demolitión charge, 5 lasguns and Harker for 316 points, for 20 more points elite scions could do twice the same, safer and better.
Lots of questions about which superheavy is best; let's wait to see the Stormhammer rules.
Compared to the other variants it has essentially two main guns, which may put it over the top of the others in terms of damage output.
In the Heresy, it was also the only Baneblade variant that could take Targeters (making it BS +1) without reducing any of its firepower.
It's primary weapon had Shred, giving it re-rolls to wound (we'll see what they do with that) and Pinning (*shrug* for 8th), and it's secondary weapon both fired two shots and was twin-linked. I know the Exterminator tank got nerfed, but it'd be hilarious to see a BS3+ stormhammer with a 4d6 battlecannon.
Trickstick wrote: If I had to guess, pinning could be -1 ld or something.
Quite so. I doubt it will keep all of it's heresy options; we may just lose that in the conversion. As it stands, though, if everything is preserved, we'll end up with a superheavy with up to 8 or 9 lascannons, a primary weapon which is essentially a Baneblade cannon with Shred and Pinning but only a 7" blast (however they translate that to 8th; it's inconsistent), and a secondary weapon which is a twin-linked two-shot Stormhammer battlecannon, which in 8e might make it a 4-shot battlecannon.
Unit1126PLL wrote: ...only a 7" blast (however they translate that to 8th; it's inconsistent)...
I know. I'm still weeping over the Stormsword Cannon going from 10" blast to 1d6 shots. It is supposed to be one of the largest shells a tank can fire!
Unit1126PLL wrote: ...only a 7" blast (however they translate that to 8th; it's inconsistent)...
I know. I'm still weeping over the Stormsword Cannon going from 10" blast to 1d6 shots. It is supposed to be one of the largest shells a tank can fire!
Yeah, me too. The primary companies of my regiment are Baneblades and Stormswords, so having half the regiment nerfed so hard is a sad. But I also have one stormhammer company so I am waiting to see...
... and it's weird. Some 7" blasts became 2d6 (Hellhammer?) but some 10" blasts became 1d6 (stormsword, obviously).
I have a shadowsword that can switch to banesword or stormsword. Not hard to do as it is just a barrel swap. I'm probably going to run the shadowsword just for the fun of having a mega death beam.
Trickstick wrote: I have a shadowsword that can switch to banesword or stormsword. Not hard to do as it is just a barrel swap. I'm probably going to run the shadowsword just for the fun of having a mega death beam.
I like to have actual in-universe TO&Es built up for my units, so my Stormswords are staying Stormswords, since that's all the regiment has. With the Indomitus Crusade and Dark Imperium, I may add a Shadowsword Tank Destruction Company but I haven't decided; I want to see the rules for the Forge World one Stormsword first as that may improve it.
I need to go over my fluff, it's been like 6 years since I even looked at it. I think that I wrote it out as that most are of regiments, the mixed infantry/armour regiment. Rare things but they do exist.
What does everyone think of the siege variant Leman Russ's now? Demolishers seem like they can put out some serious damage now, albeit expensively.
I was thinking about running a few with lascannons and meltas, but 232 points each is a bit steep. Especially considering the -1 hit when moving (which they will be constantly).
Either that or punishers with lascannons and meltas. since they get split fire now.
The demolisher actually as a reasonable gun on it, although it is pretty expensive. I would take one with three flamers and use it very aggressively. Decent overwatch and can move around without penalty. I guess a punisher would work too. Really, I'm looking forward to running triple flamers on any russ that wants to move.
Hey guys, I'm thinking about adding more and more Astra Militarum units to my AdMech as time passes, I think I'll focus on being able to run a Brigade Detachment for those sweet 9 CP. Thing is I need to fill Fast Attack slots and the options of the AdMech currently are the Dragoons and Ballistarii, both being quite expensive in money for a small cost in points and a doubtful efficiency. I own one Dragoon but I'd like to fill the 2 other slots with Hellhounds, thinking about the Bane Wolf variant, with a Chem Cannon and maybe a Multi-Melta, that raises the cost to 108 points per vehicle. What do you think of this ?
Also, was curious about the efficiency of Bullgryns, I love the models but I have no idea how they perform (let's talk without a transport for now), and which loadout is the best for them. They look impressive with the CC weapons but I don't know what they'll go fight with it.
I still haven't got round to playing a game yet, although my stuff arrived today so it shouldn't be long. I am looking forward to using hellhounds though, they seem really fun. I will probably go with inferno cannon and flamer, so that I don't take the -1 to hit on a melta. I also like the fact the hellhound explodes on a 4+, so you can be really aggressive with it and hopefully take something out in the explosion.
I believe the cheapest Fast Attack units available to IG are the sentinels, which you can take either variant with a weapon for under 50 points.
Bullgryns I have not made use of yet in 8th, but I actually used them a lot in 7th and got enough use from them. Hilariously, the mauls are now cheaper than the grenade gauntlets, so I'd probably tend towards CC-focused now. You can mix and match weapon and shield, so you can take the invul or improved armor save with the maul, and both of these saves are better than they were in 7th. I'd take the 4++ if you're expecting lots of/very high ap, otherwise 2+ is looks pretty awesome too. Optimal shield choice may also depend on the makeup of the rest of your army. If you've got lots of tanks or a super heavy, they probably won't waste their best ap weapons on some Bullgryns, go 2+. In an infantry heavy armor, the opposite may hold true, so go 4++. I'm tempted to try dropping 4 from a valk when I get to test their capabilities.
Trickstick wrote: The demolisher actually as a reasonable gun on it, although it is pretty expensive. I would take one with three flamers and use it very aggressively. Decent overwatch and can move around without penalty. I guess a punisher would work too. Really, I'm looking forward to running triple flamers on any russ that wants to move.
Interesting idea... Are really any other sponsons worth it at all for tanks that'll be mobile?
Trickstick wrote: The demolisher actually as a reasonable gun on it, although it is pretty expensive. I would take one with three flamers and use it very aggressively. Decent overwatch and can move around without penalty. I guess a punisher would work too. Really, I'm looking forward to running triple flamers on any russ that wants to move.
Interesting idea... Are really any other sponsons worth it at all for tanks that'll be mobile?
Well bolters are not too bad on the move, they are pretty cheap and you don't lose much from a -1 compared to plasma/melta.
As for sentinels, I like the idea of scout sentinels with flamers. You get a scout move, which you can use to expand your 9" zone of no-deepstrike. You also get to run into things, flame them and kick them. If you like you can take a chainsaw, although it seems pointless for just -1ap with 1 attack.
I find myself really loving heavy flamers in this edition. I think I understand why they are so many points. That -1 to hit is bad for Space Marines, but for Guard it is really a lot more painful.
Wow, such an epic game! The twists! The turns! I was gripped from beginning to end.
(-:
Seriously though, I always feel pretty horrible when I slaughter the enemy like that. It just seems boring.
I was on the recieving end vs scion comsquad spam 2 times. 1-st time with orks - they managed to win cause hores are less vulnerable to plasma drops (although scions made their points back in 1 turn vs stormboyz that were too far from a boss to keep order). But my sm list had 0 chances. I'm thinking we got to house-rule scion comsquads to require an actual commander or cost more points.
Cheapest "Imperial" Fast Attack for the Brigade attachment are the Space Wolf - Cyberwolves (which actually meshes well with your Admech themed army. (15 pts. per, so 45 for the Fast attack tax) if you went with AM exclusively Scout Sentinels or bare bones Rough riders are the cheapest options.
Bullygruns are extremely resilient with a mix and match of ++4, and +2 shields a Taurox prime (Gatling and Autocannons w/ Storm Bolter) is only doing 2 wounds to 1 model. and a scion plasma boat (4 Plasmaguns and 5 Hot Shot Lasers) only drops 5 wds total with overcharge.
Their dmg output is reasonable (basically 2 Autocannons per model on the charge with the maul) but wont blow dedicated assault off the floor. overall they are not a bad counter charge unit for their price.
Personally I think scout sentinels are the way to go. For 45 points they fill a fast attack slot and with their scout move provide a solid bubble for deep strike denial. Give them a multi-laser. IF they dont drop turn one then you just pop smoke for turn two.
Leth wrote: Personally I think scout sentinels are the way to go. For 45 points they fill a fast attack slot and with their scout move provide a solid bubble for deep strike denial. Give them a multi-laser. IF they dont drop turn one then you just pop smoke for turn two.
I'd go for the 52 pt flamer version. You get so much more firepower. Also, you can pop smoke turn 1 if nothing is in range.
Leth wrote: Personally I think scout sentinels are the way to go. For 45 points they fill a fast attack slot and with their scout move provide a solid bubble for deep strike denial. Give them a multi-laser. IF they dont drop turn one then you just pop smoke for turn two.
Ah, I miswrote what I'd like with my army, I'm looking for models that are a good deal money and points wise, the reason I don't like Ironstriders that much is because of their questionable efficiency on the battlefield, their cheap point cost and their expensive price in money, I don't want to have to buy lots of a single model that are so expensive (yeah I'm playing Budgethammer for the moment), so I looked at the Hellhounds because for one they are faster and more versatile in their loadout options, while being a quite tough model and with a point cost that justifies its price in money. See what I mean ?
I bought my Start Collecting Scions today, going to mount the Command Squad half plasma half melta, Tempestor Prime with Command Rod, and the regular squad with either flamers or Volley Guns. Going to play mostly my regular squad + Lord Commisar in the Taurox while dropping the Command Squad + Tempestor if the conditions on the table are right.
You could buy a blister of 5 Finecast plasma guns, they will add a lot of value to your scions squads by releasing a lot of firepower for cheap.
I've run some numbers on scions guns, and seriously, plasma is too good for the price.
Wow, such an epic game! The twists! The turns! I was gripped from beginning to end.
(-:
Seriously though, I always feel pretty horrible when I slaughter the enemy like that. It just seems boring.
I was on the recieving end vs scion comsquad spam 2 times. 1-st time with orks - they managed to win cause hores are less vulnerable to plasma drops (although scions made their points back in 1 turn vs stormboyz that were too far from a boss to keep order). But my sm list had 0 chances. I'm thinking we got to house-rule scion comsquads to require an actual commander or cost more points.
I guess it pays to read...I've been using 10 man scion squads to get me my 4 plasma guns Won't be doing that again!
So about scions here are some simple numbers (mean number of damage) :
Take a half-size scion troop squad with 2 special weapons and always a plasma pistol on the sergeant. In the turn they drop between 9.5 - 12 inches of a big target, they fire all their weapons at it. I do count the 2 hot-shot lasguns as contributing to the firepower. On overcharge, I assume there is a tempestor order to reroll .I have put also the humble grenade launcher to stress out the gap between this weapon and plasma guns which costs only 2 points more.
vs. T'au Piranhas , ork warbuggies & Co (T5 Sv 4+) :
squad with grenade launchers : 2.000
squad with plasma guns : 2.593
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 5.099
squad with melta guns : 3.926
vs. Killa kans or t'au commander (T5 Sv 3+) :
squad with grenade launchers : 1.556
squad with plasma guns : 2.148
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 4.667
squad with melta guns : 3.778
vs average tyranid monster (T6 Sv 3+)
squad with grenade launchers : 1.185
squad with plasma guns : 2.000
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 4.494
squad with melta guns : 3.630
vs. Aeldari War Walker, Drukhari vehicles (T6 Sv 4+ i5++)
squad with grenade launchers : 1.333
squad with plasma guns : 1.630
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.630
squad with melta guns : 2.519
vs Carnifex, Wraithlord or the average tank (T7 Sv 3+)
squad with grenade launchers : 0.870
squad with plasma guns : 1.537
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.414
squad with melta guns : 3.537
vs Riptide (T7 Sv 2+ i5++)
squad with grenade launchers : 0.630
squad with plasma guns : 1.963
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.093
squad with melta guns : 2.556
Tough tank like Vindicator (T8 Sv 3+)
squad with grenade launchers : 0.778
squad with plasma guns : 1.074
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.414
squad with melta guns : 2.667
Houston, we've got a problem !
Plasma guns are much better than grenade launchers for just a little more price. They retain their efficiency better against big targets.
Overcharged plasma guns consistently outshine meltaguns in all but one scenario at their job of chasing down tough stuff.
What the developers were thinking when they made plasma guns only 7 points ? This thing needs to be at least 10 points !
I see no reason to not spam plasma in scions squads. They are better than any other weapon and very versatile, except maybe at horde control.
I have always run the LR without sponsons, and that's not going to change in 8th. I wonder how just Nobody does the same (but I have to say, that I do it for background and because I don't like the look of tanks with sponsons).
So about scions here are some simple numbers (mean number of damage) :
Take a half-size scion troop squad with 2 special weapons and always a plasma pistol on the sergeant. In the turn they drop between 9.5 - 12 inches of a big target, they fire all their weapons at it. I do count the 2 hot-shot lasguns as contributing to the firepower. On overcharge, I assume there is a tempestor order to reroll .I have put also the humble grenade launcher to stress out the gap between this weapon and plasma guns which costs only 2 points more.
vs. T'au Piranhas , ork warbuggies & Co (T5 Sv 4+) :
squad with grenade launchers : 2.000
squad with plasma guns : 2.593
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 5.099
squad with melta guns : 3.926
vs. Killa kans or t'au commander (T5 Sv 3+) :
squad with grenade launchers : 1.556
squad with plasma guns : 2.148
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 4.667
squad with melta guns : 3.778
vs average tyranid monster (T6 Sv 3+)
squad with grenade launchers : 1.185
squad with plasma guns : 2.000
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 4.494
squad with melta guns : 3.630
vs. Aeldari War Walker, Drukhari vehicles (T6 Sv 4+ i5++)
squad with grenade launchers : 1.333
squad with plasma guns : 1.630
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.630
squad with melta guns : 2.519
vs Carnifex, Wraithlord or the average tank (T7 Sv 3+)
squad with grenade launchers : 0.870
squad with plasma guns : 1.537
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.414
squad with melta guns : 3.537
vs Riptide (T7 Sv 2+ i5++)
squad with grenade launchers : 0.630
squad with plasma guns : 1.963
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.093
squad with melta guns : 2.556
Tough tank like Vindicator (T8 Sv 3+)
squad with grenade launchers : 0.778
squad with plasma guns : 1.074
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.414
squad with melta guns : 2.667
Houston, we've got a problem !
Plasma guns are much better than grenade launchers for just a little more price. They retain their efficiency better against big targets.
Overcharged plasma guns consistently outshine meltaguns in all but one scenario at their job of chasing down tough stuff.
What the developers were thinking when they made plasma guns only 7 points ? This thing needs to be at least 10 points !
I see no reason to not spam plasma in scions squads. They are better than any other weapon and very versatile, except maybe at horde control.
Now what is the math if you are pushed out beyond 14-15 inches? Many players will start having bubble wraps that prevent your plasma from getting into range on the drop.
Plasma guns are much better than grenade launchers for just a little more price. They retain their efficiency better against big targets.
Overcharged plasma guns consistently outshine meltaguns in all but one scenario at their job of chasing down tough stuff.
What the developers were thinking when they made plasma guns only 7 points ? This thing needs to be at least 10 points !
I see no reason to not spam plasma in scions squads. They are better than any other weapon and very versatile, except maybe at horde control.
The AM guns are priced for BS 4+, but handed out to command squads with BS 3+. It works with veterans because they have a tax of 10 models. With the 5 models of command squads it becomes rediculous, especially with Scions who can deep strike and can't be killed before they deliver (what is pretty easy with T3 4+ W 1 models)
So about scions here are some simple numbers (mean number of damage) :
Take a half-size scion troop squad with 2 special weapons and always a plasma pistol on the sergeant. In the turn they drop between 9.5 - 12 inches of a big target, they fire all their weapons at it. I do count the 2 hot-shot lasguns as contributing to the firepower. On overcharge, I assume there is a tempestor order to reroll .I have put also the humble grenade launcher to stress out the gap between this weapon and plasma guns which costs only 2 points more.
vs. T'au Piranhas , ork warbuggies & Co (T5 Sv 4+) :
squad with grenade launchers : 2.000
squad with plasma guns : 2.593
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 5.099
squad with melta guns : 3.926
vs. Killa kans or t'au commander (T5 Sv 3+) :
squad with grenade launchers : 1.556
squad with plasma guns : 2.148
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 4.667
squad with melta guns : 3.778
vs average tyranid monster (T6 Sv 3+)
squad with grenade launchers : 1.185
squad with plasma guns : 2.000
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 4.494
squad with melta guns : 3.630
vs. Aeldari War Walker, Drukhari vehicles (T6 Sv 4+ i5++)
squad with grenade launchers : 1.333
squad with plasma guns : 1.630
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.630
squad with melta guns : 2.519
vs Carnifex, Wraithlord or the average tank (T7 Sv 3+)
squad with grenade launchers : 0.870
squad with plasma guns : 1.537
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.414
squad with melta guns : 3.537
vs Riptide (T7 Sv 2+ i5++)
squad with grenade launchers : 0.630
squad with plasma guns : 1.963
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.093
squad with melta guns : 2.556
Tough tank like Vindicator (T8 Sv 3+)
squad with grenade launchers : 0.778
squad with plasma guns : 1.074
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.414
squad with melta guns : 2.667
Houston, we've got a problem !
Plasma guns are much better than grenade launchers for just a little more price. They retain their efficiency better against big targets.
Overcharged plasma guns consistently outshine meltaguns in all but one scenario at their job of chasing down tough stuff.
What the developers were thinking when they made plasma guns only 7 points ? This thing needs to be at least 10 points !
I see no reason to not spam plasma in scions squads. They are better than any other weapon and very versatile, except maybe at horde control.
Now what is the math if you are pushed out beyond 14-15 inches? Many players will start having bubble wraps that prevent your plasma from getting into range on the drop.
My strategy will be to kill the bubble wrap with my wyverns and taurox primes before the scions drop in to decimate their vehicles
So about scions here are some simple numbers (mean number of damage) :
Take a half-size scion troop squad with 2 special weapons and always a plasma pistol on the sergeant. In the turn they drop between 9.5 - 12 inches of a big target, they fire all their weapons at it. I do count the 2 hot-shot lasguns as contributing to the firepower. On overcharge, I assume there is a tempestor order to reroll .I have put also the humble grenade launcher to stress out the gap between this weapon and plasma guns which costs only 2 points more.
vs. T'au Piranhas , ork warbuggies & Co (T5 Sv 4+) :
squad with grenade launchers : 2.000
squad with plasma guns : 2.593
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 5.099
squad with melta guns : 3.926
vs. Killa kans or t'au commander (T5 Sv 3+) :
squad with grenade launchers : 1.556
squad with plasma guns : 2.148
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 4.667
squad with melta guns : 3.778
vs average tyranid monster (T6 Sv 3+)
squad with grenade launchers : 1.185
squad with plasma guns : 2.000
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 4.494
squad with melta guns : 3.630
vs. Aeldari War Walker, Drukhari vehicles (T6 Sv 4+ i5++)
squad with grenade launchers : 1.333
squad with plasma guns : 1.630
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.630
squad with melta guns : 2.519
vs Carnifex, Wraithlord or the average tank (T7 Sv 3+)
squad with grenade launchers : 0.870
squad with plasma guns : 1.537
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.414
squad with melta guns : 3.537
vs Riptide (T7 Sv 2+ i5++)
squad with grenade launchers : 0.630
squad with plasma guns : 1.963
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.093
squad with melta guns : 2.556
Tough tank like Vindicator (T8 Sv 3+)
squad with grenade launchers : 0.778
squad with plasma guns : 1.074
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.414
squad with melta guns : 2.667
Houston, we've got a problem !
Plasma guns are much better than grenade launchers for just a little more price. They retain their efficiency better against big targets.
Overcharged plasma guns consistently outshine meltaguns in all but one scenario at their job of chasing down tough stuff.
What the developers were thinking when they made plasma guns only 7 points ? This thing needs to be at least 10 points !
I see no reason to not spam plasma in scions squads. They are better than any other weapon and very versatile, except maybe at horde control.
Now what is the math if you are pushed out beyond 14-15 inches? Many players will start having bubble wraps that prevent your plasma from getting into range on the drop.
My strategy will be to kill the bubble wrap with my wyverns and taurox primes before the scions drop in to decimate their vehicles
That means a minimum of 1-2 turns off the table with them having nothing to then replace the holes in their bubble wrap. I just need to bubble wrap during your movement phase, if you shoot them off after its not as much of a big deal. Meanwhile all of their damage dealers are still going while you are focusing on the bubble wrap.
Not saying its not a solid strategy, just something to think about.
I figure there's probably not much difference between 1-2 turns off the table waiting for chaff to clear, and 1-2 turns walking up the table or 1-2 turns sitting in a transport because you have to disembark at the beginning of the movement phase.
Other than I guess getting to contribute to shooting at the chaff while they try to break through, and the risk of the enemy shooting back.
Malcadors don't get Grinding Advance so are more expensive worse Leman Russes as they get -1 if they move. The Defender and Annihilator do get it for their Demolisher cannons though.
The Griffon is 22pts cheaper than one Heavy Mortar carriage and gets to re-roll the number of attacks on a harder to kill platform, not sure how they priced that one up.
Malcadors don't get Grinding Advance so are more expensive worse Leman Russes as they get -1 if they move. The Defender and Annihilator do get it for their Demolisher cannons though.
The Griffon is 22pts cheaper than one Heavy Mortar carriage and gets to re-roll the number of attacks on a harder to kill platform, not sure how they priced that one up.
They do anything interesting with the co-ax stubber? My book is coming by snail mail and could well be a week.
Malcadors don't get Grinding Advance so are more expensive worse Leman Russes as they get -1 if they move. The Defender and Annihilator do get it for their Demolisher cannons though.
The Griffon is 22pts cheaper than one Heavy Mortar carriage and gets to re-roll the number of attacks on a harder to kill platform, not sure how they priced that one up.
I guess if I go to bed the whole thing will have hit the net by tomorrow. I kinda wish I had got the digital one, then I remember books are superior! (-:
So a gew things I'm looking at are really nifty, Saber spotlights giving us +1 BS tell the end of the shooting phas for a single friendly REGIMENT unit on its target. Not that tough but they're dirt cheap
Salamander command Vehicles can do the same thing for a vehicle withing 6" of it as well
Tatantulas stuuuupidly cheap but not fast attsck anymore
Looks like DKK Russes (and some other DKK vehicles) get a +1 armor vs S1-4 shooting
STORMHAMMER BANEBLADES
Tauros actually look pretty good, they get the invuln insyead of a jink thst black knights get, the heavy weapon one ignores penalties for moving with heavy weapons which can have lascannons or multilasers, and they are cheap, looks like a winner fpr fast attack slots.
Stygies vanquisher looks cool with coaxial reroll (but its a storm bolter so danger close)and +1 bs if it sits still.
Hades drill melta cutter is a melee weapon now with regular melta rules and wprking like a powerfist with -4AP. Gets a invuln, comes in like all the other former deepstrikers, and comes with a squad of 10 IG vets with all the choices they'd normally get.
Griffpns seem.. hrm.. their geared towards med infantry I'd say, roll 2d6 for shots and keep the highest with S6 ap-1 D3
Stormblade only takes 1 mortal wound of each 1 to hit with it overcharges its blastgun, same for the macharius omega.
Quad launchers still pump out stupid number of shots and I think will give Taurox primes a run for their money as the most effective for dealing with hordes.
So...the Leman Russ Conqueror looks totally superior to the regular LRBT unless I'm missing something. You get a 48" range battle Cannon with built in co-ax stormbolter which allows you to re-roll hits with the BC. That's a great trade for a bit of range loss!
The Stygies Vanquisher is better too; +1 to hit on the vanq canon if you don't move and a built in co-ax storm bolter to give the canon re-rolls like above.
Both these tanks sounds great.
Edit again: My word the Vendetta is back. With 3 twin lascannons, a transport capacity of 12 and the same PL as a Russ. The Vulture is also buffed with more viable loadouts now, as well as a twin Punisher Cannon that's, you guessed it, heavy 40.
Yeah i'm just not a gan if them being storm bolters, 24" its abit too vlose for comfort just to be getting re roll ones now if it were coax hvy stunners...
man I'm kind of disappointed with the Death Korps of Krieg rules,
The bad their orders are just awful... and they lose the best ones which lets you re-roll 1s to hit as well as FRFSF for the ability to turn their lasguns into pistol 2
This has to be a typo but it looks like they can't take artillery Heavy carriages according to the special rules page as its not listed in the approved units. How can normal guard take them but Death Korps can't?
Grenadiers do nothing special and can only take 2 special weapons, no matter how big they are. garbage compared to Scions
marshal Venner is basically a worse creed and doesn't give you free command points
The Good cult of sacrifice lets them ignore wounds caused by shooting during the morale phase
Mars pattern leman russes get +1 to their armor save against attacks of STR 4 or lower.
Engineer Shotguns are really good as you can overcharge them and always wound on a 2+ and do 2 damage (must be why the Aim order was taken away)
If you wanted to make a full death rider army you can, as there are Mounted Marshalls in the HQ choices
rapier laser destroyers are 1 shot this time but are STR 12 and D6dmg but you roll a dice before you roll for dmg and on a 3-5 you do 2d6dmg on a 6 you do 3d6dmg!!!
Overall I'd say don't bother once again this edition to not use Death Korps of Krieg rules unless you want to do a death rider army.
Regular IG is just sooooo much better and I guess can take all the good things like the hades breaching drill and the rapier laser destroyers anyway. The death korps index feels like it was super rushed and no thought was put into it, literally they are just worst guard with super limited choices on what you can include in the army. I can't even rant about it anymore I'm so angry and sad, its killed my motivation for 8th edition.
Manticore platforms being the same price as earthshaker platforms is... interesting. Very likely to be a preferred method of deploying Manticores, 80pts vs 133, quite a deal.
Vendettas with 12 transport capacity and LRs with re-rolls to hit are also pretty sweet.
ross-128 wrote: Manticore platforms being the same price as earthshaker platforms is... interesting. Very likely to be a preferred method of deploying Manticores, 80pts vs 133, quite a deal.
Vendettas with 12 transport capacity and LRs with re-rolls to hit are also pretty sweet.
paladinknight62 wrote: man I'm kind of disappointed with the Death Korps of Krieg rules,
The bad their orders are just awful... and they lose the best ones which lets you re-roll 1s to hit as well as FRFSF for the ability to turn their lasguns into pistol 2
This has to be a typo but it looks like they can't take artillery Heavy carriages according to the special rules page as its not listed in the approved units. How can normal guard take them but Death Korps can't?
Grenadiers do nothing special and can only take 2 special weapons, no matter how big they are. garbage compared to Scions
marshal Venner is basically a worse creed and doesn't give you free command points
The Good cult of sacrifice lets them ignore wounds caused by shooting during the morale phase
Mars pattern leman russes get +1 to their armor save against attacks of STR 4 or lower.
Engineer Shotguns are really good as you can overcharge them and always wound on a 2+ and do 2 damage (must be why the Aim order was taken away)
If you wanted to make a full death rider army you can, as there are Mounted Marshalls in the HQ choices
rapier laser destroyers are 1 shot this time but are STR 12 and D6dmg but you roll a dice before you roll for dmg and on a 3-5 you do 2d6dmg on a 6 you do 3d6dmg!!!
Overall I'd say don't bother once again this edition to not use Death Korps of Krieg rules unless you want to do a death rider army. Regular IG is just sooooo much better and I guess can take all the good things like the hades breaching drill and the rapier laser destroyers anyway. The death korps index feels like it was super rushed and no thought was put into it, literally they are just worst guard with super limited choices on what you can include in the army. I can't even rant about it anymore I'm so angry and sad, its killed my motivation for 8th edition.
I agree about the orders. What the hell? It's because they are based upon the Assault Brigade which couldn't take Carriage Batteries. Lord Castellan Creed costs more than the Death Korps Marshal, and you get 12" leadership bubble as well as a Memento Mori (basically reducing all multiple wound weapons to 1 when damaging a character with it) They were the same before, but they are slightly cheaper per model. Instead of seeing them as a replacement for Scions, see them are heavy assault infantry like cheaper Space Marines.
I agree about the good points. The re-roll hits order was probably removed because it wasn't in the list before, although why they removed FRFSRF is still anyone's guess. The Rapier however isn't that good however. It has worse damage output that a lascannon squad but is tougher, with about 2.1 expected wounds against anything not T6 or below (2.67 against those), while a Lascannon Squad has 3.5.
I do not agree with not using the DKoK. There is absolutely nothing prevent you from using Astra Militarum units in the army as well. You could simply bring a Space Marine Captain, Death Korps Infantry Squads and Heavy Artillery Carriages in a single detachment if you wanted to. What it has done is removing the ability for Death Korps auras etc. to benefit them, and removed a lot of flavour of having Death Korps artillerymen, Combat Engineer Rapier crews and so on. But the army itself is in a much better spot.
ross-128 wrote: Manticore platforms being the same price as earthshaker platforms is... interesting. Very likely to be a preferred method of deploying Manticores, 80pts vs 133, quite a deal.
Vendettas with 12 transport capacity and LRs with re-rolls to hit are also pretty sweet.
Can Manticores squadrons as platforms?
You can buy 3 platforms in a single unit, they need to be set up within 6" of each other but otherwise act independently. However, they only get either Manticore Missiles (S9 AP-3 D d6, can only fire 4 missiles per battle) or Sky Eagle rockets (Heavy 1 S9 AP -3 D d6 +1 to hit vs fliers -1 vs everything else), compared to Storm Eagle missiles (2d6 S10 AP-2 D d3 can fire without LoS). I'm not too impressed with the platforms. Compared to Medusas, Earthsakers etc. they only have more range.
schadenfreude wrote: I guess now the big question is how earth shaker platform compare to basilisks, is the durability loss worth a 20% discount?
Griffins and quad mortars need to be dirt cheap to compare to wyverns. The reroll to wound means the s4 hits are often better than the s6 or s5.
The Basilisks come up worse in a comparison I'd say. The Platforms and Carriages are cheaper for the damage output, but has -4 wounds, +1T, has a 4+ save instead of 3+, no damage table, can fire when locked in combat and cannot move (not that it's any problem). While not as dumb as in 6th and 7th with 75 pts heavy artillery and 125 pts Basilisks, the artillery batteries should probably see an increase to 100 points at least.
The Griffon is T7 W11 3+ save Heavy D6 S6 AP-1 Dd3 roll two dice, discard lowest, no LoS required and no cover bonus for 78 points.
The Heavy Mortar is T7 W6 4+ save Heavy D6 S6 Ap-1 Dd3 no LoS required, for 72 pts with 3 crew (which are mandatory).
The Heavy Quad Launcher has the same statline but Heavy 4D6 S5 AP0 D1 no LoS required, for 85pts with mandatory crew
Compared to a Wyvern for 93 pts, the Wyvern probably comes out ahead in most cases with either superior damage output or superior body.
schadenfreude wrote: I guess now the big question is how earth shaker platform compare to basilisks, is the durability loss worth a 20% discount?
Griffins and quad mortars need to be dirt cheap to compare to wyverns. The reroll to wound means the s4 hits are often better than the s6 or s5.
The Basilisks come up worse in a comparison I'd say. The Platforms and Carriages are cheaper for the damage output, but has -4 wounds, +1T, has a 4+ save instead of 3+, no damage table, can fire when locked in combat and cannot move (not that it's any problem). While not as dumb as in 6th and 7th with 75 pts heavy artillery and 125 pts Basilisks, the artillery batteries should probably see an increase to 100 points at least.
The Griffon is T7 W11 3+ save Heavy D6 S6 AP-1 Dd3 roll two dice, discard lowest, no LoS required and no cover bonus for 78 points.
The Heavy Mortar is T7 W6 4+ save Heavy D6 S6 Ap-1 Dd3 no LoS required, for 72 pts with 3 crew (which are mandatory).
The Heavy Quad Launcher has the same statline but Heavy 4D6 S5 AP0 D1 no LoS required, for 85pts with mandatory crew
Compared to a Wyvern for 93 pts, the Wyvern probably comes out ahead in most cases with either superior damage output or superior body.
Given the points I concur. I hope my book arrives in the mail soon.
I heard people say tarantulas are good, but even if they are free 16 points for the heavy bolters seems steep on a bs2 platform.
+1 to hit from spotlights seems fantastic especially for a 50 block of conscripts with frfsrf orders. How cheap are they?
Are cyclops any good? I loved cyclops in 7th edition
schadenfreude wrote: I guess now the big question is how earth shaker platform compare to basilisks, is the durability loss worth a 20% discount?
Griffins and quad mortars need to be dirt cheap to compare to wyverns. The reroll to wound means the s4 hits are often better than the s6 or s5.
The Basilisks come up worse in a comparison I'd say. The Platforms and Carriages are cheaper for the damage output, but has -4 wounds, +1T, has a 4+ save instead of 3+, no damage table, can fire when locked in combat and cannot move (not that it's any problem). While not as dumb as in 6th and 7th with 75 pts heavy artillery and 125 pts Basilisks, the artillery batteries should probably see an increase to 100 points at least.
The Griffon is T7 W11 3+ save Heavy D6 S6 AP-1 Dd3 roll two dice, discard lowest, no LoS required and no cover bonus for 78 points. The Heavy Mortar is T7 W6 4+ save Heavy D6 S6 Ap-1 Dd3 no LoS required, for 72 pts with 3 crew (which are mandatory). The Heavy Quad Launcher has the same statline but Heavy 4D6 S5 AP0 D1 no LoS required, for 85pts with mandatory crew
Compared to a Wyvern for 93 pts, the Wyvern probably comes out ahead in most cases with either superior damage output or superior body.
Given the points I concur. I hope my book arrives in the mail soon.
I heard people say tarantulas are good, but even if they are free 16 points for the heavy bolters seems steep on a bs2 platform.
+1 to hit from spotlights seems fantastic especially for a 50 block of conscripts with frfsrf orders. How cheap are they?
Are cyclops any good? I loved cyclops in 7th edition
The Tarantulas are 24 pts each with a Twin Heavy Bolter (10 base + 14 for the weapon) or 50 with Twin Lascannon, at BS4+. They are very cost-effective and pretty tough (T5, W5, 4+), but they cannot move at all, so they can basically only serve as backline defence and area denial. They can also fire when in combat, but cannot fight at all.
20 points each for the Sabres with Defence Searchlight. While the wording is a bit weird (you select a model within 48" and LoS, but then it says when you shoot at the unit, so they probably need to fix that), they are most likely quite broken.
Cyclops are stupidly good. 10" move T6 W4 3+, at the start of any of your shooting phases if it hasn't advanced, it can detonate its charge, attacking EVERY unit within D6", at Heavy 2D6 S9 AP-2 Dd3 AUTO-HIT, one use. Then you remove it and it does not award victory points if removed in this manner. 40 points each.
schadenfreude wrote: I guess now the big question is how earth shaker platform compare to basilisks, is the durability loss worth a 20% discount?
Griffins and quad mortars need to be dirt cheap to compare to wyverns. The reroll to wound means the s4 hits are often better than the s6 or s5.
The Basilisks come up worse in a comparison I'd say. The Platforms and Carriages are cheaper for the damage output, but has -4 wounds, +1T, has a 4+ save instead of 3+, no damage table, can fire when locked in combat and cannot move (not that it's any problem). While not as dumb as in 6th and 7th with 75 pts heavy artillery and 125 pts Basilisks, the artillery batteries should probably see an increase to 100 points at least.
The Griffon is T7 W11 3+ save Heavy D6 S6 AP-1 Dd3 roll two dice, discard lowest, no LoS required and no cover bonus for 78 points.
The Heavy Mortar is T7 W6 4+ save Heavy D6 S6 Ap-1 Dd3 no LoS required, for 72 pts with 3 crew (which are mandatory).
The Heavy Quad Launcher has the same statline but Heavy 4D6 S5 AP0 D1 no LoS required, for 85pts with mandatory crew
Compared to a Wyvern for 93 pts, the Wyvern probably comes out ahead in most cases with either superior damage output or superior body.
Given the points I concur. I hope my book arrives in the mail soon.
I heard people say tarantulas are good, but even if they are free 16 points for the heavy bolters seems steep on a bs2 platform.
+1 to hit from spotlights seems fantastic especially for a 50 block of conscripts with frfsrf orders. How cheap are they?
Are cyclops any good? I loved cyclops in 7th edition
The Tarantulas are 24 pts each with a Twin Heavy Bolter (10 base + 14 for the weapon) or 50 with Twin Lascannon, at BS4+. They are very cost-effective and pretty tough (T5, W5, 4+), but they cannot move at all, so they can basically only serve as backline defence and area denial. They can also fire when in combat, but cannot fight at all.
20 points each for the Sabres with Defence Searchlight. While the wording is a bit weird (you select a model within 48" and LoS, but then it says when you shoot at the unit, so they probably need to fix that), they are most likely quite broken.
Cyclops are stupidly good. 10" move T6 W4 3+, at the start of any of your shooting phases if it hasn't advanced, it can detonate its charge, attacking EVERY unit within D6", at Heavy 2D6 S9 AP-2 Dd3 AUTO-HIT, one use. Then you remove it and it does not award victory points if removed in this manner. 40 points each.
So the Cyclops only has a threat range of 11 to 16",can not detonate on an opponent's turn, and went up in points in exchange for holy gak that is a lot of damage.
I'm very happy about the cyclops. It's raw power is stupid good, but it has a short threat range and there is room for counter play. I think a smart opponent will make them a high target priority early in the game, but they will soak up a good amount of anti vehicle firepower for their points if that us the case.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The cyclops may also be our answer agaist elite CC armies jumping in our face. They can close the distance stupid fast and even get off turn 1 charges, but lack the dakka and time to destroy the cyclops before going all in
So the Cyclops only has a threat range of 11 to 16",can not detonate on an opponent's turn, and went up in points in exchange for holy gak that is a lot of damage.
I'm very happy about the cyclops. It's raw power is stupid good, but it has a short threat range and there is room for counter play. I think a smart opponent will make them a high target priority early in the game, but they will soak up a good amount of anti vehicle firepower for their points if that us the case.
The cyclops may also be our answer agaist elite CC armies jumping in our face. They can close the distance stupid fast and even get off turn 1 charges, but lack the dakka and time to destroy the cyclops before going all in
Well, it couldn't really move quickly previously from what I've seen (although I guess you could transport it, which would have cost more) and it had to have an operator, which is gone now. It also went from 30 to 40 pts but gained 2 wounds and a better save. It also explodes if it loses its last wound, but that is on a 3+ on D6 and only causes D3 mortal wounds to units within 6". So I would say overall it is more mobile and somewhat tougher.
Don't forget that the cyclops is one of the smallest models in the game. It will be really easy to hide them in ruins, laying traps for an advancing enemy.
Just saw that the Medusa can indirect fire. Wasn't the whole point of that thing that it couldn't?
So am I wrong or are Malcadors pointless now? I worked out the points and they are like 60ish points more than a Leman Russ for only 6 more wounds. They lack Grinding advance so are -1 to hit and can't be squadroned so take up a slot each.
Just saw that the Medusa can indirect fire. Wasn't the whole point of that thing that it couldn't?
Spoiler:
Well, it looks like it would be capable of some indirect fire. Well, in fact most armoured vehicles with a vertically traversable gun can fire indirectly, and many historical tanks have had some form of indicator for that. I'm happy it has that capability. Nevertheless, the text in Imperial Armour 1 2nd Ed states that it is used in a direct fire role.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Loopstah wrote: So am I wrong or are Malcadors pointless now? I worked out the points and they are like 60ish points more than a Leman Russ for only 6 more wounds. They lack Grinding advance so are -1 to hit and can't be squadroned so take up a slot each.
6 wounds are still 6 wounds, and the other variants have some use. But yes, it's not really spectacular.
Honestly I got a different impression from the DKOK. I am super pumped for them. Their armywide rule makes it so that they dont need you to invest in things like commissars which helps with both slots and flexibility of movement. I think the pistol 2 order is interesting in its flexibility.
If you want to play regular guard play regular guard. DKOK will play very differently and honestly? I like it.
I've been going through the AM index from Forgeworld, and overall I'm quite pleased.
The DKoK list looks interesting, and I might finally field my Kriegers with the actual Krieg rules this edition. Lack of FRFSRF is disappointing though. And it's strange that we can't take artillery carriages or actual Combat Engineers with the Hades. The overall selection of general AM datasheets that can get the Krieg keyword is strange. For a bunch of them it doesn't matter because they don't get Krieg specific rules and you can always use any AM faction datasheet in the same detachment anyway.
No more autocannon turrets for normal Chimeras
The Leman Russ Conqueror is basically a normal LR with re-rolls for the Battle Cannon, yet it's actually 19 points cheaper.
Not being able to use the new LR variants for a Tank Commander sucks.
Talking about things that suck: this edition the Vanquisher is not redeemed by Forgeworld Stygies. The Destroyer Tank Hunter also remains thoroughly meh.
Am I reading the Thunderbolt entry correctly? It can take 4 Hellstrike missiles or 6 Skystrike missiles. As neither of these weapons mention being one use only, that means for 270 pts I'm throwing out 2 S9 AP-3 Dd6, 4 S8 AP-2 Dd6 and 8 S7 AP-1 D2 attacks per turn. The Lightning can pull off similar shenanigans.
Was looking up the Destroyer and thought it looked ok. D3 shots and tank hunter rule make it a pretty nice AT platform.
However, they screwed up the Thunderer. They forgot that you have to pay for weapons, so it is 210 points. You can get a naked demolisher for 172, the only difference being 1 less wound. Or you could stick 3 flamers on it for 223. Seems like a Thunderer would be nice at 170, as you swap orders for a wound.
I would rather have waited a month for the proof reading to be completed. The FAQ is going to be huge. If we get one I guess, ABG was never updated for 7th after all...
That's one reason I'm happy with getting the digital edition, as I might get all the edits without having to lug around printed FAQs.
Another thing I noticed is that the Rapier Crew has T4 S4 3+ save, so they're basically slightly less accurate Space Marines. The weapon itself got hit hard with nerfs, but on the other hand it's actually a choice between HWTs and Rapiers now.
Well, it lessens the pain of losing Combat Engineer crew a little. Goddamnit, I liked the cheap and tough BS4 Twin-linked Ordnance Lascannon in the Elite slot. I can only hope for a more complete IA book in due time.
Trickstick wrote: Was looking up the Destroyer and thought it looked ok. D3 shots and tank hunter rule make it a pretty nice AT platform.
I would rather have waited a month for the proof reading to be completed. The FAQ is going to be huge. If we get one I guess, ABG was never updated for 7th after all...
Compare the Destroyer to the LR Annihilator. For +22 pts and -1W the latter gets 3 shots instead of D3, and the option for sponsons.
And didn't ABG get updated for 7th ed in IA1 - Second Edition?
Another interesting error I found: the Veterans accompanying the Hades are BS4+ and not BS3+ like other Veterans.
Trickstick wrote: The demolisher actually as a reasonable gun on it, although it is pretty expensive. I would take one with three flamers and use it very aggressively. Decent overwatch and can move around without penalty. I guess a punisher would work too. Really, I'm looking forward to running triple flamers on any russ that wants to move.
Interesting idea... Are really any other sponsons worth it at all for tanks that'll be mobile?
Depends on the type of tank? On a standard russ, heavy flamers all the way, on a tank commander maybe heavy bolters or plasma, then for Pask go for the single shot stuff? Distinguishes their roles quite significantly.
daedalus wrote: Anyone have any idea what happened to the Hades Breaching Drill?
It's basically a str5 , t7, w7 drop pod with a power fist and can carry some shotgun troops. It can move around after it comes in. Gets double attacks against buildings too, and a 4++ in combat.
I would like to start and AM army but only to play in team matched play. So, I am currently looking for a competitive 500 pts list but I litterraly do not where to start (I only have the index right now).
I would like to start and AM army but only to play in team matched play. So, I am currently looking for a competitive 500 pts list but I litterraly do not where to start (I only have the index right now).
Thanks in advance for your ideas
What draws you to Guard? There are so many choices that it may help to narrow things down. Unless you just want to know what will be best. I guess a 500pt Scion army would be very good. A few squads mixed in with Taurox primes for fire support.
Also, I guess Scions aren't really an AM army, if you were set on that. They are sort of an offshoot.
What draws you to Guard? There are so many choices that it may help to narrow things down. Unless you just want to know what will be best. I guess a 500pt Scion army would be very good. A few squads mixed in with Taurox primes for fire support.
Yeah Scions are ok for me, i just want the best indeed
Outside of being compeitive, i really enjoy comissar models, Is it possible to fit him int he list?
I don't know how well a Commissar would fit, as it can't drop and with small squads they are not that useful. However, the Commissars are trained with the scions and are pretty much the same organisation. There is a decent fluff reason to use a commissar model conversion for a Tempestor Prime.
Would you, please, just show me an example of list (for 500) in order to know which weapons are good, which unit will come in deep strike, etc. ?
Just off the top of my head, without doing any actual points:
Tempestor with rod,
2x10 man with Plasmaguns, maybe vox
2x Taurox prime with some sort of guns, people seem to like the gatling/hotshot combo
Something else maybe if there is the points (maybe ratlings)
Problem is you can only reserve half of your army, so you would need a 3rd unit on the board if you wanted to drop the tempestor and 2x squads. Vox would let you drop the 2 squads further apart, as the tempestor's 6" order range would go up to 18" and give you a lot more options.
I don't even know how many points this is, I'm only guessing it is somewhere under 500. You could easily add some ratlings as your final unit if there are points, as they make great infiltrators. You could probably shave the 10 man squads a bit if needed, I just like to have some bodies to take wounds.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Tempestor Prime w/ Rod and power sword/maul
2x 8 man Scions w/ 4x plamsa and vox
2x Taurox Prime w/ gatling/volleys/stormbolter
6x Ratlings
500 points. No idea if it is good as I haven't played yet, just something I would try. Ratlings could get deleted early depending on how you use them.
Edit: Threw it up on the army list board, so as not to take this thread over.
Something I intend to do with my own Start Collecting: Scions is to use the Lord Commissar in the Taurox Prime with a 5 man squad equipped with one Flamer, one Hot-Shot Volley Gun, and Plasma pistols for the Sergeant and the Commissar. The plan being driving the Taurox as close as possible to the enemy's support units and drop them off turn two to shoot with all the power I can. That's a way to field a Commissar while still being with his men, the Lord is quite good in CC too.
And I'll be using the deep strike Command Squad with Tempestor Prime with two Plasma guns and two Meltaguns to kill whatever needs killing, preferably warlords and light vehicles.
Hmm Trying to debate the uses of Elysian Drop Troops vs Miltarum Tempestus Sions.
I think Command to Command Squad the Elysians are much better.
But as far as troops go the Sions are much better.
Elysians Command are a couple points cheap per models and unless they errata it (Or fix the typo) they rock a 3 Damage Plasma gun. Like Sions you only have to take 4 in the command and Have the same BS. In addition the Elysians have 2 points higher LD (REALLY?) I really see no reason to take a Tempestus Command Squad over an Elysian one.
Now as Troops Sions are much better Rocking +1 BS, The ability to take 4 Special weapons to the Elysian's 1 or take a smaller Group in general at 5 troops to the required 10 of the EDT. However they are much more expensive then the EDT and -1 LD.
A few other things to note. If I am reading this right you can take an Officer of the Fleet as an EDT to let you reroll 1s vs a target unit within 18" (And since he gains the Arial Drop ability that's pretty easy to set up).
So about Command Squads. I've yet to play 8th edition, but I'm slowly rebuilding my old Guard lists.
I want to use my Command Squads in support of my DKoK infantry squads. Basic setup would be a Regimental Standard, a meltagun to use that nice BS3+ and 2 meatshields. It's Krieg, so all the infantry is expected to be advancing on the enemy lines instead of cowering in cover.
How do I keep my Command Squads alive? They seem incredibly attractive targets, and even with a single casualty I'm testing morale on a 5-.
Nemo84 wrote: So about Command Squads. I've yet to play 8th edition, but I'm slowly rebuilding my old Guard lists.
I want to use my Command Squads in support of my DKoK infantry squads. Basic setup would be a Regimental Standard, a meltagun to use that nice BS3+ and 2 meatshields. It's Krieg, so all the infantry is expected to be advancing on the enemy lines instead of cowering in cover.
How do I keep my Command Squads alive? They seem incredibly attractive targets, and even with a single casualty I'm testing morale on a 5-.
Unfortunately, there is not really any way to keep them alive, since they are not characters, so they will probably be killed right away. 5 man squad with 1 wound, toughness 3 and 5+ save is just easy first blood.
DoomMouse wrote: What? So can you put 12 Cyclops in a Valkyrie? That would be fun.
Any news on rapier laser destroyers? I've got a few converted ones lying around.
36" range, str 12, -4 ap, deals 1d6 dmg (roll a d6, deals 2d6 on 3-5, and 3d6 on 6). Cost about as much as 3 heavy weapon teams with las cannons, is toughness 5 with 3 wounds and 3+ save.
Overall heavy weapons team is probably superior, though its not an extremely terrible choice to use your rapiers instead.
Well, they don't all have to get out at once (I think since each one is its own unit, they could even disembark at different locations on the same turn) so it probably would work for converting a Valkyrie into a bomber. Them being 480 points would still make the Valkyrie bomber a disproportionately juicy target though, so you would want to drop them ASAP.
One intresting idea i got, is that you can make a death korps assault army using the Gorgon Heavy Transporter
Load it up with 4 Infantry Squads, a command squad with regimental banner, 2 Commanders and Yarrick and you have one big and nasty assault unit (nobody will expect it!)
AND NOW FOR THE MOST IMPORTANT PART THAT EVERYONE HAS OVERLOOKED WITH DEATH KORPS
Death Korps heavy weapons teams can take heavy flamers!!!
So i totally believe that death korps can make an awesome agressive assault army, compared to the shooty normal guard.
Nemo84 wrote: So about Command Squads. I've yet to play 8th edition, but I'm slowly rebuilding my old Guard lists.
I want to use my Command Squads in support of my DKoK infantry squads. Basic setup would be a Regimental Standard, a meltagun to use that nice BS3+ and 2 meatshields. It's Krieg, so all the infantry is expected to be advancing on the enemy lines instead of cowering in cover.
How do I keep my Command Squads alive? They seem incredibly attractive targets, and even with a single casualty I'm testing morale on a 5-.
Target saturation and having more important things for your opponent to shoot. Ironically those 2 meatshields you threw in help with that quite a bit. If he shoots at the unit he's "only" going to get 2 regular guardsmen, a flag, and maybe the melta if he's lucky. Most players will just shoot something else instead at that point.
If your opponent wants them dead they will die, it's that simple. Bring a few, maybe hide them behind a tank, and just ensure there's enough going on in your list that if the opponent does anything aside from throw the odd heavy bolter at them he's wasting shots that he should be devoting elsewhere, like your heavy weapon squads, artillery, stormtroopers, vets, etc.
So why arent anyone more hyped about Sabre Platforms with Searchlights? Those things are insane. They cost next to nothing and the buffs they bring are humongous. And seeing how the text is worded, the +1 to hit actually stacks with other searchlights. Who cares if Vendetta hits on 5+? 60pts of searchlights and it hits on 2+. Plasmas overheating? One searchlight and they cant do it anymore.
Blightstar wrote: So why arent anyone more hyped about Sabre Platforms with Searchlights? Those things are insane. They cost next to nothing and the buffs they bring are humongous. And seeing how the text is worded, the +1 to hit actually stacks with other searchlights. Who cares if Vendetta hits on 5+? 60pts of searchlights and it hits on 2+. Plasmas overheating? One searchlight and they cant do it anymore.
Incredible piece of equipment.
Probably because they don't sell them anymore and most people can't be bothered to scratch build something.
Blightstar wrote: So why arent anyone more hyped about Sabre Platforms with Searchlights? Those things are insane. They cost next to nothing and the buffs they bring are humongous. And seeing how the text is worded, the +1 to hit actually stacks with other searchlights. Who cares if Vendetta hits on 5+? 60pts of searchlights and it hits on 2+. Plasmas overheating? One searchlight and they cant do it anymore.
Incredible piece of equipment.
Indeed they are incredible, they are also all going to die in the first turn, and are first blood bait, better hope you can get your points back before then.
If your enemy had a squad of three marines and it gave them +1 to hit, how long would it be until you killed them?
I guess they could have some use against very melee heavy armies, when they can just sit behind a wall of conscripts. Against shooting armies I can't see them lasting long.
It is unfortunate that they're so fragile. On the one hand I guess we can only expect so much for 20 points, on the other hand it literally doesn't have a weapon and can't move, surely it could be bumped up to T5 or given a 3+ save.
Its 48" range though means that if you position it well, most of the things that can reach it are anti-tank weapons. So if you have some scarier things for those anti-tank weapons to shoot at, an opponent might overlook an unarmed 20 point model. You'll definitely want to bring spares in case one does die in the first turn though, and if you're not going first, deploy your vehicles to block line of sight so you'll get at least one use out of them (because you can move the blocking vehicle when it's your turn).
ross-128 wrote: It is unfortunate that they're so fragile. On the one hand I guess we can only expect so much for 20 points, on the other hand it literally doesn't have a weapon and can't move, surely it could be bumped up to T5 or given a 3+ save.
It's a giant glass searchlight. Throw a rock at it and it will break and be useless...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, moving a vehicle kinda defeats the point if you take a -1 to hit.
The blocker and the buff target don't have to be the same thing. You can use something that won't care about moving, like a Hellhound (which you probably have for your fast attack slots), or something that's going to have to move anyway, like a Taurox Prime, as the blocker.
True but usually the tanks that want to roll out first turn are not near where I put safe backfield units. I guess I like to do attack flank/defend flank though, so ymmv.
For those interested, I've started a thread discussing every option and unit available to the AM. It's similar to a codex review, only, you know, without the codex!
Polonius wrote: For those interested, I've started a thread discussing every option and unit available to the AM. It's similar to a codex review, only, you know, without the codex!
Quick question how are people running sentinels? Are they using the scout or armored version and what weapons are being used? I need to field two to fill out my brigade detachment.
broxus wrote: Quick question how are people running sentinels? Are they using the scout or armored version and what weapons are being used? I need to field two to fill out my brigade detachment.
I would just keep them as cheap as possible. I don't find any of the options particularly appealing, with them costing between 45-60 for a single heavy weapon. Almost any kind of fire support is better performed by other units (HWTs with orders, or tanks for survivability) in my opinion. But if you have extra points and can spend an additional 5-10 per Sentinel, sure, go for what you need to complement your other forces.
Polonius wrote: For those interested, I've started a thread discussing every option and unit available to the AM. It's similar to a codex review, only, you know, without the codex!
Polonius wrote: For those interested, I've started a thread discussing every option and unit available to the AM. It's similar to a codex review, only, you know, without the codex!
Some corrections I would like to point out:
- In the autocannon entry you wrote that autocannons can instantkill heavy weapon teams. Instant-kills as a result of 2x strength compared to target toughness no longer exists in 8th. They will still die fast and everyone and his dog will aim all his heavy bolters at expensive and threatening autocannon, missile launcher and particularly lascannon squads (the main reason I think MLs and LCs are best hidden in infantry squads which also makes it easier to give them orders), not good as you are VERY likely to have to go 2nd when playing IG (unless you play a tank company)
- In the Missile Launcher entry you wrote that it's 15 points which makes it a questionable pick compared to the 20 point lascannon. Actually the ML costs 20 points as well on all AM units (and is as expensive as a Lascannon in every faction that can take them AFAIR)
- Gotta change the "Heavy flamer is priced between ML and lascannon" bit as well.
Otherwise a nice read and informative, looking forward to the unit breakdowns .
broxus wrote: Quick question how are people running sentinels? Are they using the scout or armored version and what weapons are being used? I need to field two to fill out my brigade detachment.
I would just keep them as cheap as possible. I don't find any of the options particularly appealing, with them costing between 45-60 for a single heavy weapon. Almost any kind of fire support is better performed by other units (HWTs with orders, or tanks for survivability) in my opinion. But if you have extra points and can spend an additional 5-10 per Sentinel, sure, go for what you need to complement your other forces.
The worst part is even the cheapest option for weapons is 10pts. To get a lascannon is only 10pts more. I have heard of people using the scout sentinel w/heavy flames to move into position and flame things first thing. The problem I see with that concept is I expect to never get first turn and plan to always go second to to my number of units. A scout sentinel is pretty useless as it will die in seconds to every gun. This leads me to believe that putting a gun on them that can use a range advantage seems the way to go. I am just not sure which weapon I should use. Multi lasers and auto cannons are terrible which leads me to choose from lascannons, missile launchers, and plasma cannons.
- In the autocannon entry you wrote that autocannons can instantkill heavy weapon teams. Instant-kills as a result of 2x strength compared to target toughness no longer exists in 8th.
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He meant that one shot instantly kills a HWT because autocannons deal 2 damage, not because of 2x strength of ye olden days.
broxus wrote: Quick question how are people running sentinels? Are they using the scout or armored version and what weapons are being used? I need to field two to fill out my brigade detachment.
I would just keep them as cheap as possible. I don't find any of the options particularly appealing, with them costing between 45-60 for a single heavy weapon. Almost any kind of fire support is better performed by other units (HWTs with orders, or tanks for survivability) in my opinion. But if you have extra points and can spend an additional 5-10 per Sentinel, sure, go for what you need to complement your other forces.
The worst part is even the cheapest option for weapons is 10pts. To get a lascannon is only 10pts more. I have heard of people using the scout sentinel w/heavy flames to move into position and flame things first thing. The problem I see with that concept is I expect to never get first turn and plan to always go second to to my number of units. A scout sentinel is pretty useless as it will die in seconds to every gun. This leads me to believe that putting a gun on them that can use a range advantage seems the way to go. I am just not sure which weapon I should use. Multi lasers and auto cannons are terrible which leads me to choose from lascannons, missile launchers, and plasma cannons.
That's why I added the last sentence. I don't think either Sentinel is worth it, but a multilaser isn't as terrible as you make it sound. It's better than autocannons in one important way (namely, 50% more shots against people where double the damage doesn't matter), and a cheaper alternative to Plasma Cannons. It is an anti-light infantry weapon. A Plasma Cannon would also cost 10 points more because you need an armoured Sentinel.
The problem I see with Sentinels are still that they are very unappealing. You pay 55-60 points for a Lascannon. You could get a Rapier for 30% more, dealing over twice the amount of expected damage. Or a HWT for even more. Nonetheless, if I had to use them, I would either keep them as cheap as possible (Scout, multi-laser) to grab objective and deny deep strike, or go with Plasma Cannon on Armoured ones (because I like how they look). I guess you don't want any of the alternative fast attacks, or can afford them pointswise?
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.I have put also the humble grenade launcher to stress out the gap between this weapon and plasma guns which costs only 2 points more.
