as a baseline troop do you guys think scions are worth 4 pts over a basic guardsman?
i was thinking of going guard with some tempestus thrown in but im really thinking of switching it and going tempestus with some guard thrown in... lol.
i was also wondering about taurox prime vs. the chimera.
chimera has one more toughness but the prime seems to be armed better. im leaning towards the prime.
ross-128 wrote: It is unfortunate that they're so fragile. On the one hand I guess we can only expect so much for 20 points, on the other hand it literally doesn't have a weapon and can't move, surely it could be bumped up to T5 or given a 3+ save.
It's a giant glass searchlight. Throw a rock at it and it will break and be useless...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, moving a vehicle kinda defeats the point if you take a -1 to hit.
Still waiting for my book. How fragile are they exactly. And do they hit automatically or require a hit roll like marker lights?
ross-128 wrote: It is unfortunate that they're so fragile. On the one hand I guess we can only expect so much for 20 points, on the other hand it literally doesn't have a weapon and can't move, surely it could be bumped up to T5 or given a 3+ save.
It's a giant glass searchlight. Throw a rock at it and it will break and be useless...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, moving a vehicle kinda defeats the point if you take a -1 to hit.
Still waiting for my book. How fragile are they exactly. And do they hit automatically or require a hit roll like marker lights?
T4 W3 Sv4+, no other defenses. Searchlights hit automatically.
Not fluffy at face value but wondering whether Dkok grenadiers or engineers in a valkyrie would make nice stand ins for assault scions? Not got the new index yet so can't way up the options but from what I've seen key words allows them to ride and be taken in a detachment with other guard flyers, could even chuck in priests and quarter masters to beef them up? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick here
The FW plasma gun has got to be a typo, same point cost but does 3w on supercharge?
The artillery batteries are not vehicles so therefore gets +1 save with toe in cover?
Also are the FW writers dumb? The batteries are like exactly the same as the carriages but does not require crew member tax so therefore a lot cheaper. Makes no sense
SonsofVulkan wrote: The FW plasma gun has got to be a typo, same point cost but does 3w on supercharge?
The artillery batteries are not vehicles so therefore gets +1 save with toe in cover?
Also are the FW writers dumb? The batteries are like exactly the same as the carriages but does not require crew member tax so therefore a lot cheaper. Makes no sense
The batteries lack the Infantry keyword and so do not get cover benefits just for being in it.
SonsofVulkan wrote: The FW plasma gun has got to be a typo, same point cost but does 3w on supercharge?
Most likely. Only the AM and Elysian ones have D3, DKoK and R&H ones do not.
The artillery batteries are not vehicles so therefore gets +1 save with toe in cover?
Don't exactly know the terrain rules, but most of the Battlefield Terrain ones say that infantry units gain if every model is inside, and otherwise only if every model is 50% obscured.
Also are the FW writers dumb? The batteries are like exactly the same as the carriages but does not require crew member tax so therefore a lot cheaper. Makes no sense
The crew can shoot their lasguns, so someone thought that it warrants an extra cost. They are also technically their own unit, just that they have to be within 3" of the artillery piece. And get cover like Unit1126PLL said.
Blightstar wrote: Heavy Carriages are Vehicles even if their retinue of guardsmen are infantry. Weapon itself doesnt get save unless its 50% hidden by terrain.
Where are you guys getting this 50% hidden to get cover from? BRBpg 181 just says units doesn't specify keywords.
Blightstar wrote: Heavy Carriages are Vehicles even if their retinue of guardsmen are infantry. Weapon itself doesnt get save unless its 50% hidden by terrain.
Where are you guys getting this 50% hidden to get cover from? BRBpg 181 just says units doesn't specify keywords.
Speaking of the basilisk it is only 28 points more than a battery, 4 more wounds, comes with a HB and most importantly is mobile. The con is that it will degrade, so I don't if the battery are worth taking compare to a regular basilisk?
28 pts is quite a lot when you are only talking about a 108 point unit. If you can save 20% off a unit but keep the same main gun, then you can fit a lot more into a list. You don't really want to move a basilisk anyway.
Fear of degraging before you unleash your payload? Worry not anymore! Just take Manticore Batteries and unleash all 4 missiles on a single turn!
Yeah. They kinda forgot the clause "cant fire more than one missile per turn" so you fire all 4. They are Heavy D6 S9 -3 Dd6 and only 90pts per one and in squadrons of 3. Drawback is that they cant move and their missiles need LOS.
(Earthshaker) Batteries are just better than their carriage variants.
Maybe, but this is where you can insist on WYSIWYG because the Earthshaker Platform is out of production.
Put basilisk on board, say engine is broken and it is out of bolter ammo.
WYSIWYG. Well, may be pushing it (-:
As long as the gun and floor is not glued in it can slide in and out of the basilisk. 1 magnet, cut some plastic, and glue some bits onto it. My home made version only took a couple of hours to make.
broxus wrote: Quick question how are people running sentinels? Are they using the scout or armored version and what weapons are being used? I need to field two to fill out my brigade detachment.
Scout Sentinels with heavy flamers, in squads of 3, have performed extremely well for me.
edit: They are surprisingly survivable too. T5 (or is it 6?) with 6 wounds each and a 4+ is rather survivable against small arms, and you should use them as bullies anyway. They totally massacre MEQS and below. Yes they will vanish to real antitank guns, but I found nobody wants to shoot at the lowly sentinel with their big guns. Then, when they are parked in front of some isolated troop squad unleashing HFs it begins to sink in that that troop squad is basically unable to hurt them back. They can't kill them quickly with small arms shooting, they can't charge them due to the overwatch, and they can't survive 3 HFs hosing them down. Great little unit and the scout move is wonderful.
SonsofVulkan wrote: Elysian CS are 2 points less than scions each but has a 5+ instead of 4+, hmmm tough choice.
No choice really. Both units die of you give them a mean look so going cheaper is not bad choice. Also currently Elysian plasmaguns are D3 instead of D2. Clear winners in my book.
Anyone able to do a quick run-down of the Elysian list? Lots of Discussion of the DKoK (awesome), but really interested in some thoughts on validity of our fly boys. Have my index ordered, but haven't seen the list as a whole yet.
-Are there snipers worth taking? Do they have the + range spotters in the rules?
-Are there mortar squads identical to AM? Cost more perhaps?
-Can there Valkyries be put into reserve and/or "deep strike"?
-Do they have unique orders? Do they get any orders at all?
Not sure how a mass of Vendettas/Vultures/Valkyries will do now. They don't seem overly hard to take down if you want to hit well. Although dropping in a OotF down next to a hovering Vendetta seems like it can do some real work. Vultures don't even seem to need that support with 40 shots a piece punisher cannons.
Thoughts?
Edit: Most important question: Do Elysians get orders (officially) in index?
broxus wrote: Quick question how are people running sentinels? Are they using the scout or armored version and what weapons are being used? I need to field two to fill out my brigade detachment.
I would just keep them as cheap as possible. I don't find any of the options particularly appealing, with them costing between 45-60 for a single heavy weapon. Almost any kind of fire support is better performed by other units (HWTs with orders, or tanks for survivability) in my opinion. But if you have extra points and can spend an additional 5-10 per Sentinel, sure, go for what you need to complement your other forces.
The worst part is even the cheapest option for weapons is 10pts. To get a lascannon is only 10pts more. I have heard of people using the scout sentinel w/heavy flames to move into position and flame things first thing. The problem I see with that concept is I expect to never get first turn and plan to always go second to to my number of units. A scout sentinel is pretty useless as it will die in seconds to every gun. This leads me to believe that putting a gun on them that can use a range advantage seems the way to go. I am just not sure which weapon I should use. Multi lasers and auto cannons are terrible which leads me to choose from lascannons, missile launchers, and plasma cannons.
Take an Armoured Sentinel, put a lascannon on it, put it on the flanks, preferably in cover, extending your 9" deep strike denial bubble. Fills your fast attack slots for the Brigade Detachement, is much more survivable than an entire lascannon heavy weapon squad (which WILL get pasted if your enemy gets first turn, they are a supremely easy to kill, high priority 72 points target), particularly in cover, isn't easy killpoint/first blood bait, extends your deep strike denial bubble quite nicely and can be used as a quite mobile and quite decent close combat intercept/blocking unit if things go south. Take potshots with the lascannon and it should earn it's points back quite well. Plasma Cannon is another good pick, though our infantry does cover plasma needs quite well already. Sure, it ain't uber stronk Scion command squad levels of point efficient but it has it's role (particularly filling FA slots) and the performance for the price is still not a problem if you squeeze in one or two even in a tournament list, particularly because the model is frickin awesome. If you aren't going all out tournament list then there is no reason not to take one or two, they are viable and not a waste of points like e.g. a LR Exterminator.
Leave off any upgrades though, particularly the chainsaw (no, -1 AP isn't worth 3 points on a model which hits on 4+ and has only one attack, buy 1 1/2 stormbolters for your tanks or 1pt bolters for three your squad sergeants instead).
Scout Sentinels with Flamer are 8 points cheaper and good too, but WILL die faster and will not make their points back or have sufficient impact in every match, particularly if the enemy goes first. Try to get it into cover with the scout move if you can.
Forget Multilasers, they are dead until they get a better profile or a massive point reduction (4 or 5 points at most) as they are simply not worth it with D1 and no AP modifier. Take a Heavy Bolter instead if you can or upgrade to a lascannon.
So how about a LC Tauros venator instead of a LC Armored sentinel?
26pts more gets you same toughness and wounds, a 4+ armor, 7 more inches of movement, a second lascannon and ignoring the -1 to hit for moving, and a 5+ invuln if it moves 10+ inches.
Ir0njack wrote:Definitely watching this, i love indepth examinations like this. Stellar job!
thanks!
Trickstick wrote:
Polonius wrote: For those interested, I've started a thread discussing every option and unit available to the AM. It's similar to a codex review, only, you know, without the codex!
I did rather like your 3.5 Codex review back in the day.
It was a labor of love, I'm glad you enjoyed it! But it was actually the 5th edition codex, not the 3.5 one.
Ragnar Blackmane wrote:- In the Missile Launcher entry you wrote that it's 15 points which makes it a questionable pick compared to the 20 point lascannon. Actually the ML costs 20 points as well on all AM units (and is as expensive as a Lascannon in every faction that can take them AFAIR)
- Gotta change the "Heavy flamer is priced between ML and lascannon" bit as well.
Otherwise a nice read and informative, looking forward to the unit breakdowns .
Yeah, somebody in the thread pointed out the 15pt thing. Proofreading is not my strong suit
thanks for the other useage as well, I might have missed it.
SonsofVulkan wrote: Elysian CS are 2 points less than scions each but has a 5+ instead of 4+, hmmm tough choice.
No choice really. Both units die of you give them a mean look so going cheaper is not bad choice. Also currently Elysian plasmaguns are D3 instead of D2. Clear winners in my book.
I guess the only downside is Elysians can't take Taurox Prime
broxus wrote: Quick question how are people running sentinels? Are they using the scout or armored version and what weapons are being used? I need to field two to fill out my brigade detachment.
Scout Sentinels with heavy flamers, in squads of 3, have performed extremely well for me.
edit: They are surprisingly survivable too. T5 (or is it 6?) with 6 wounds each and a 4+ is rather survivable against small arms, and you should use them as bullies anyway. They totally massacre MEQS and below. Yes they will vanish to real antitank guns, but I found nobody wants to shoot at the lowly sentinel with their big guns. Then, when they are parked in front of some isolated troop squad unleashing HFs it begins to sink in that that troop squad is basically unable to hurt them back. They can't kill them quickly with small arms shooting, they can't charge them due to the overwatch, and they can't survive 3 HFs hosing them down. Great little unit and the scout move is wonderful.
Quick question how do you use them in a game? It seems you will always go second so you don't want to push them to far forward since they will become an easy victory point. Can they stay in units of 3 or must they split apart and become separate units?
broxus wrote: Quick question how do you use them in a game? It seems you will always go second so you don't want to push them to far forward since they will become an easy victory point. Can they stay in units of 3 or must they split apart and become separate units?
Sentinels stay as a unit. I guess you want to use their scout move to push forward into cover or hide out of los. Games seem to need more los blocking terrain than in 7th, which could help.
SonsofVulkan wrote: Elysian CS are 2 points less than scions each but has a 5+ instead of 4+, hmmm tough choice.
No choice really. Both units die of you give them a mean look so going cheaper is not bad choice. Also currently Elysian plasmaguns are D3 instead of D2. Clear winners in my book.
I guess the only downside is Elysians can't take Taurox Prime
They actually can just fine. Elysians can also take drop pods, rhinoes and every other imperial dedicated transport. They cant just ride in any of them.
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: I've got a few questions regarding IG vehicles, if anyone can help:
1) Which do you think are better - Scout Sentinels or Armoured Sentinels?
2) What weapon do you think is best on those Sentinels?
3) Are Leman Russ tanks any good?
4) What are good choices for Leman Russ loadouts? (In terms of both the top gun and also the front gun and sponsons)?
What I'm thinking:
1+2: I think that scout sentinels are good if you want to move them forward armed with flamers. You can scout them out in front of your army to deny deepstrike, or get them into cover. Armoured sentinels I would give a lascannon and use them like HWTs in your main line. I don't particularly like moving a weapon and getting a -1 to hit, at least not with a base 4+. Losing -1 on a 4+ model is far worse than on a 3+ model.
3+4: I think they can be. It depends what you want to do with them. Sitting back as a fire platform seems a waste, as artillery will always beat them in damage/points ratio. So I would take them as linebreakers, giving an advancing force a tough unit to support them. So I like mass flamers and stormbolters on the shorter range tanks, the demolisher and punisher. They can do a fair pit of damage in overwatch or if they get near the enemy, which is possible with their 10" movement. However, I think that the best Russ is now the conqueror. It is 17pts cheaper than a similarly armed battlecannon russ, losing only some range yet gaining a co-ax storm bolter. I actually think their cost is a typo they are so good. Take a conqueror, give it 3x flamer and an extra stormbolter: it comes out at 188. Quite a nice russ.
Has anyone looked into the Marauder Destroyer seriously? 300 points for 3 twin autocannon, a twin assault cannon and a twin heavy bolter on a T7 3+Sv 20W platform with the ability to bomb something once per game seems quite nice - it can also take eight krak-only missile launchers for an extra 160 points.
Seems like a cheapish way to fill out a LoW detachment for those juicy command points if you're already planning on one or two big tanks. It's not that shooty for the cost, but a 20-wound flyer can absorb a lot of punishment for your other units.
Several posts have mentioned using Leman Russ tanks with heavy flamers to advance into the enemy deployment zone. It is a risky tactic because opponents will try to lock the tanks in close combat. If your heavy flamers don't kill all of the attackers in Overwatch, your tanks may not be able to fire for the rest of the game (as long as they are locked in combat and during your first shooting phase after a Fall Back move). Smart opponents will try to get their charging models into contact on multiple sides of your vehicle so that you will not be able to Fall Back. In 8E, the enemy does not have to charge the closest point on the target unit. His first model charging just has to get within 1 inch of the target by the end of his charge move. The other models in the unit only have to maintain coherency.
The key point is to support your tanks with other units to keep chargers away or at least prevent them from locking your tanks into combat for multiple turns.
And before someone mentions it, the normal AM orders do not work on vehicles so Get Back in the Fight is not going to help your vehicles to fire after a Fall Back move.
Oh of course. You need to use infantry and tanks to support each other. You could always use some infantry to engage the enemy, then fall back with your russes. You lose a turn of shooting but you got overwatch so it isn't too bad.
So far from the dozen or so games I've played with russes here are the things I've noticed:
The x3 heavy Flamers is no joke! 3d6 shots with -1ap has stopped assaults and does great on the offensive side.
Pask in a battle tank with lascannon and MM's is deadly. Dropped a stormraven by himself in 1 round of shooting. With him kitted out that way and his bs paired with ordering himself he can drop some big targets a turn.
Standard russes are pretty poor with their bs4. Most of the main guns struggle with hitting and not doing many shots. So if I have the hq slots open I try to make as many russes tank commanders as I can to get that bs3.
But I'm working on trying something else. Russes are expensive and do still take a lot of fire power. So I aim to run pask kitted out as he is above paired with 1 command battle tank with x3 Flamers and 1 standard battle tank with x3 Flamers. This way the command tank can order the standard russ and pask can then order the command tank and himself. This way the command tanks order isn't wasted. I was running 2 tank commanders and pask and the tank commanders orders were wasted as they couldn't order themselves. The bs3 is much better for their guns though.
As for hull weapons if you're running standard russes it's just better to go with that x3 Flamers. You're -1 to hit for moving and you've got a degrading profile.
Heavy bolters are alright as they just put out a lot of shots and that -1ap is nice.
Lascannons and Multi meltas are expensive so if you're using those it's best on pask or tank commanders and even then you may not want to move them much as tank commanders would be hitting on 4+ with hull and sponson weapons.
I've tried the plasma cannons and even if you have reroll 1's it's still too scary a risk. You're tank knocks itself down a profile if it blows up once and then can't use any plasma cannons the rest of the game. Your plasma is best brought from guardsmen or scions.
Only varient I haven't gotten to use yet is the punisher and demolisher. Exterminator got a nerf and autocannons can be brought else where, executioner is a risk even with orders, eradicator got -2 which is nice and ignores cover will probably become useful as I feel kicking units off objectives I cover will be difficult with that +1 to save, battle tank has been the most played and seems rather useful, battle cannon also out performed vanquisher just about every time.
I'm still looking to testing each russ out as much as possible.
I agree with your comments about Pask. I used him for six games in a Plasma Executioner + PC with hull lascannon and he was OK but I avoided supercharging. Now I am using him in a Punisher + MM + hull lascannon as a gunline tank. Oddly enough, he survives about half the battles because the enemy gets totally distracted by infantry squads and scions.
broxus wrote: Quick question how are people running sentinels? Are they using the scout or armored version and what weapons are being used? I need to field two to fill out my brigade detachment.
Scout Sentinels with heavy flamers, in squads of 3, have performed extremely well for me.
edit: They are surprisingly survivable too. T5 (or is it 6?) with 6 wounds each and a 4+ is rather survivable against small arms, and you should use them as bullies anyway. They totally massacre MEQS and below. Yes they will vanish to real antitank guns, but I found nobody wants to shoot at the lowly sentinel with their big guns. Then, when they are parked in front of some isolated troop squad unleashing HFs it begins to sink in that that troop squad is basically unable to hurt them back. They can't kill them quickly with small arms shooting, they can't charge them due to the overwatch, and they can't survive 3 HFs hosing them down. Great little unit and the scout move is wonderful.
Quick question how do you use them in a game? It seems you will always go second so you don't want to push them to far forward since they will become an easy victory point. Can they stay in units of 3 or must they split apart and become separate units?
I use their scout move to get closer to the enemy yet out of LoS, and if that is not possible than at least forward and into cover. From there I can either move them to intercept aggressive assault units (I don't charge them, just get into flamer range and sit there, forcing them to deal with me or burn, ideally walking past them so they have to charge backwards to assault me dragging them away from my deployment zone) or head towards weaker backfield units to start wreaking havoc. 18 T5 wounds with a 3+ (in cover) is not THAT easy to remove and they are a pretty low priority target so I'm not really afraid of them giving up first blood. If they do get charged first turn then great, they'll bleed whoever charged them fiercely with over watch, then disengage towards the enemy deployment if possible, so the assault unit either has to chase after me or open up his backfield to conflagration.
JB wrote: Several posts have mentioned using Leman Russ tanks with heavy flamers to advance into the enemy deployment zone. It is a risky tactic because opponents will try to lock the tanks in close combat. If your heavy flamers don't kill all of the attackers in Overwatch, your tanks may not be able to fire for the rest of the game (as long as they are locked in combat and during your first shooting phase after a Fall Back move). Smart opponents will try to get their charging models into contact on multiple sides of your vehicle so that you will not be able to Fall Back. In 8E, the enemy does not have to charge the closest point on the target unit. His first model charging just has to get within 1 inch of the target by the end of his charge move. The other models in the unit only have to maintain coherency.
The key point is to support your tanks with other units to keep chargers away or at least prevent them from locking your tanks into combat for multiple turns.
And before someone mentions it, the normal AM orders do not work on vehicles so Get Back in the Fight is not going to help your vehicles to fire after a Fall Back move.
Still seems so odd that a tank isn't allowed to just fire or keep moving and crush the foot sloggers.
JB wrote: Several posts have mentioned using Leman Russ tanks with heavy flamers to advance into the enemy deployment zone. It is a risky tactic because opponents will try to lock the tanks in close combat. If your heavy flamers don't kill all of the attackers in Overwatch, your tanks may not be able to fire for the rest of the game (as long as they are locked in combat and during your first shooting phase after a Fall Back move). Smart opponents will try to get their charging models into contact on multiple sides of your vehicle so that you will not be able to Fall Back. In 8E, the enemy does not have to charge the closest point on the target unit. His first model charging just has to get within 1 inch of the target by the end of his charge move. The other models in the unit only have to maintain coherency.
The key point is to support your tanks with other units to keep chargers away or at least prevent them from locking your tanks into combat for multiple turns.
And before someone mentions it, the normal AM orders do not work on vehicles so Get Back in the Fight is not going to help your vehicles to fire after a Fall Back move.
This is why I don't want to use the HF Russes; getting into melee is still very bad because you're locked out of shooting, and if you don't kill the assault threat with something else they will just chase your tank down and keep it locked down. Like you say, you need that bubble wrap still because unlike your tank, your infantry can "Get back in the fight!" after withdrawing. So what about the dual HF Chimera? Think about it, you almost do as much burning as the 3x HF Russ, BUT you are carrying a bubble wrap squad inside in case you need it. I'm trying to wrap my head around properly using this. Dual HF Chimera with Platoon Commander and Infantry Squad inside. If an assault threat gets close, the infantry disembark in front of the Chimera with Commander behind. They absorb the assault, withrdaw, Get back in the fight!, and then shoot with the Chimera. The only issue is you have to be 1 turn ahead of your opponent (I think) because of when disembarkation happens in the movement phase. Interestingly, Dual HF Chimera + Inf Squad + Platoon Commander probably costs about the same as a 3xHF Russ.
Also, if you think a good HF over watch will finish the assault unit off, (I think) you can wrap your infantry around your Chimera in such a way that any attempt to charge the infantry will force a multi charge into the Chimera triggering its over watch and protecting the infantry. Seems like a very solid combination to me as you can react to the strength of the assault unit with either a round of shooting plus a round of over watch, or a round of shooting, infantry blocking and getting back into the fight followed by another round of shooting all depending on how you disembark the infantry.
If you want a linebreaker, flamer blaneblade is amazing for the job, amazing overwatch firepower, tough as nails, and can keep firing even if stuck in melee.
On the other hand, 2 Crassus Armored Assault Vehicles might be just as good (they cost about 250 each if equipped with 4 heavy flamers, and they also have the steel behemoth rule), plus they can transport 35 infantry models each.
I think a hellhammer is much better than a baneblade. It has better stats and ignores cover, and the range isn't that bad.
The crassus looks awesome. It can fire after advancing, making them very fast. Just fill it with 10 bullgryn and some characters and it is a very nasty thing indeed.
I really, REALLY don't see the point in taking heavy flamer Russes when Hellhounds/Bane Wolves do the job so much better for much cheaper. 105 points gets you two flamers that move 12" a turn, one of which has -3 AP and wounds everything besides vehicles on 2+, while 110 points get you 28" of flamer threat range with a buffed up S6 D2 Heavy Flamer and a regular HF, which also explodes on a 4+ if it dies and dishes out a whole bunch of mortal wounds by doing so if you manage to get it close to the enemy. And unlike Russes they fill those Fast Attack slots you need for Brigade detachements for those sweet extra CPs.
If you take a single Russ then take Pask with a Punisher, give him a lascannon (not taking one with Pask seems like a massive waste, he is the only option to get a BS 2+ one which is more than worth the 12 points over a HB), HB sponsons and a storm bolter and you have a massive amount of infantry murder dakka. The gattling and the two HBs alone kill around 13 ork boyz a turn if they don't have cover, without even counting the stormbolter, while you can split-fire the lascannon seperately and trounce most vehicles with D6 damage if you roll a 2 followed by a 3.
That unit will DEFINITELY grab any opponents attention and keep it away from targeting artillery. If you want more Russes then I'd throw in Executioners, Punishers, Eradicators or LRBTs, ideally without commanders to save a bunch of points, commander-less Russes profit much more from Pask's orders point for point than commanders do, while particularly Executioners benefit massively from them if you get to overcharge without much fear. Tank commanders, amazing Pask aside, are pricy for what they offer and are not the auto-take many make them out to be IMO.
Keep Russes as cheap as you can while being as longer-range shooty as you can make them, Pask being the only exception (if you take any Russes at all he is a must have). THEN they are worth it IMO. Turning them into much more expensive, slower and less effective Hellhounds is not the way to go. Two heavy flamer sponsons alone is 34 points on them, while 3 is 51 points, on top of the main gun and 133/134 point base price, for a minimum of 205 points for the cheapest version of a full flamer Russ (Punisher with 3x Heavy Flamer), for only 5 points more you can get two much more effective dual-flamer Bane Wolves.
@Sentinels: As the others have already pointed out I would either take Heavy Flamer Scout Sentinels or Lascannon/Plasma cannon Armoured Sentinels. Already planning to include 1-2 hellhounds/bane wolves in any list, I plan to include a lascannon armoured one for the flexibility as flank holding unit (extending the 9" deep strike protection and as a quite tough counter-charge/melee blocker unit if things go south, while getting a 2+ save in cover) while being much tougher than Lascannon HWS and getting that third fast attack selection without having to include a third hellhound. Also because the model looks awesome and it should reliably make its points back over the turns. Don't load up any upgrades on them besides the main gun, not even the sentinel chainsaw is worth it.
I do like the look of those Artemia pattern hellhounds. You pay 7 more points for a "2 dice pick highest" for the inferno cannon's hits. Not bad. I also like hellhounds for their explosive death powers.
broxus wrote: What are the stats for the conquer's gun in 8th?
Same as a battle cannon but with 48". The advantage it has is the co-axial storm bolter which allows you to re-roll your to hit rolls with the cannon. It's also cheaper. Seems totally superior to the LRBT to me.
I'm inclined to agree that the Russ isn't the best platform for HFs, though I though it would be for a time. Chimera, Hellhound and Scout Sents all do the job better for less. I also agree about keeping it cheap, which probably means a lascannon and HB sponsons for me. Probably on the Conqueror, but what are all of your thoughts on the Annihilator? 3 Lascannons and 2 HBs sounds great even on a non Commander Russ.
Trickstick wrote: I do like the look of those Artemia pattern hellhounds. You pay 7 more points for a "2 dice pick highest" for the inferno cannon's hits. Not bad. I also like hellhounds for their explosive death powers.
Yes there seems to be little reason not to always run that variant if you want a HH.
So i was looking over my book and I noticed for 42 Pts you get a bullgryn with your choice of shield and and a maul. For 45 points you get a Sentinel powerlifter who moves 9" with WS 4+, 6w, 3 attacks, with S10, -2 Ap, D3, and a 4+ armor and scout moves. Do i think its competitive, heck no but for just 3pts more tban a bullgryn I'd be willing to give powerfist AT-STs a try
One unit to note in this Flamer discussion is Crassus. The thing costs only 200pts+weapon so 268 with 4 H.Flamers. And since it has the unusual Unstoppable Behemoth rule, it can shoot its flamers in melee against assailants. It also has a rule that allows it to advance and still shoot.
And its a transport with capacity of 30. Not a bad deal at all for its role.
Ways I use battle tanks with x3 Flamers is with advancing infantry.
I have a blob of 30-40 conscripts, behind them is 2-4 infantry squads with various loadouts.
Mixed in with the infantry is commissars and company commanders.
Behind that are the russes. So if the enemy gets close to assault my infantry, the conscripts absorb the charge and then fall back an inch leaving the opponent open for x3 H. Flamers. Plus another x3 H. Flamers as I usually have 2 battle cannon flamer russes paired together with pask following behind.
Now granted hellhounds are cheaper they also only have 2 Flamers over the russes x3 with a battle cannon. Not to mention each has their own uses. Russes seem to work better when supported by foot infantry or mechanized infantry. Where hellhounds being faster seem to work well with mech infantry going forward or with scion deepstrikes.
I've used the flamer russes against thousand sons twice, khorne daemons/marines, ultramarines, and drukari. Won every game and the flamer russes haven't disappointed yet.
PUFNSTUF wrote: Does the incinerator leman Russ not exist anymore?
That one is only for 30k. Never been a thing in 40k.
Too bad.
Yeah. I use mine as an Eradicator because I like how it looks and nobody minds since it's visually distinct from the other ones. The Mars-Alpha hull is still by far the best one.
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Ir0njack wrote: So i was looking over my book and I noticed for 42 Pts you get a bullgryn with your choice of shield and and a maul. For 45 points you get a Sentinel powerlifter who moves 9" with WS 4+, 6w, 3 attacks, with S10, -2 Ap, D3, and a 4+ armor and scout moves. Do i think its competitive, heck no but for just 3pts more tban a bullgryn I'd be willing to give powerfist AT-STs a try
A Bullgryn has S7 AP-1 D2, 3 attacks (4 on the charge), a 2+ or 4++ save, M6" and WS3+ for 42 points.
A Powerlifter has S10 AP-2 Dd3, 3 attacks, M10" and 4+ save for 45 points
I would say that they are pretty even, with the Sentinel being a little better because it doesn't need a transport and a Chimera is 93 pts to transport 4 Bullgryns. But both seem pretty good.
As for the superheavy talk - think about the Stormhammer. It is CONSIDERABLY cheaper (on the order of 15-20% cheaper) for essentially the same firepower and durability.
What do people here think about the Shadowsword? The new volcano cannon is extremely good at taking out enemy superheavies (it'll wound most on 2+ and the rest on 3+, which it gets to re-roll), and with sponsons it can still be pretty good against everything else, but with so much threat concentrated into "just" 26 wounds, there's definitely a risk that an enemy would go out of their way to alpha-strike it off the board. Especially if they do have a superheavy that they're worried about losing to it.
Of course, considering how much it would take to remove 26 wounds of T8/3+ in one turn (short of having a Shadowsword yourself), drawing that much aggro onto a single unit might be beneficial in its own way.
The most obvious consideration I suppose is local meta, since if the local meta largely lacks superheavies there's not much point to bringing one rather than a less specialized variant (or one more specialized to the local meta).
Shadowsword's Volcano Cannon will do average ~10,2 wounds on a non-titanic T8/3+ target which lacks any sort of inv saves. 4 lascannons will deliver 3,9 wounds. So firing all your antitank weapons from the SS will give you pretty decent chance of crippling one heavy tank per turn.
But now since FW has released IA:IG I see almost no point running superheavies without supporting vehicles. Salamander Command Vehicle will give one vehicle +1-to-hit and Trojan Support Vehicle will give rerolls to hit. And if you want to use them even with their squishyness, Sabre Platforms with Searchlights will stack +1-to-hit per Searchlight. With boosts like that you'd do almost 50% more damage!
One thing I was thinking of was having an array of 4-5 searchlights to support it. Only one searchlight would actually support the Shadowsword at a time, the others would support the rest of the army until the one supporting the Shadowsword dies. Since they're only 20 points each, and the "backups" are still supporting other units while they wait, they should be able to get their value back easily.
The idea here would be to use the redundancy to not only provide backups, but to discourage targeting the searchlights in the first place: if you kill one, another will replace it and the Shadowsword will still delete something. Against an enemy superheavy it'd be hitting on 2, wounding on 2 with a re-roll, and using a command re-roll to get rid of 1s on the number of shots is likely to be very much worth it.
Though I suppose another option would be to use a Salamander, and put some artillery batteries back there with it to squeeze some more use out of its aura.
A tech-priest would probably be a good investment with any Baneblade variant, since repairing 5-15 wounds over the course of the game could be very much worth it, especially if it can delay or prevent stat degredation.
ross-128 wrote: One thing I was thinking of was having an array of 4-5 searchlights to support it. Only one searchlight would actually support the Shadowsword at a time, the others would support the rest of the army until the one supporting the Shadowsword dies. Since they're only 20 points each, and the "backups" are still supporting other units while they wait, they should be able to get their value back easily.
It seems like a waste. You roll the kill point mission and you lose. You are also going to lose first blood every game.
ross-128 wrote: One thing I was thinking of was having an array of 4-5 searchlights to support it. Only one searchlight would actually support the Shadowsword at a time, the others would support the rest of the army until the one supporting the Shadowsword dies. Since they're only 20 points each, and the "backups" are still supporting other units while they wait, they should be able to get their value back easily.
It seems like a waste. You roll the kill point mission and you lose. You are also going to lose first blood every game.
Cant win every scenario or army. And Sabres come in squadrons, you can deploy up to 3 independent sabres per turn. Also I personally use Ratlings so I'm always going first 30% time .
Edit: when talking about Sabres, I personally have been thinking of using massive amount of 6x3 searchlights. 4-5 is still easy to kill but almost no army has firepower to silence 18 of them since they are single units. Overkill? A bit. Overkill when rest of your army is plasmarusses/basilisks/superheavies? Dont think so.
ross-128 wrote: One thing I was thinking of was having an array of 4-5 searchlights to support it. Only one searchlight would actually support the Shadowsword at a time, the others would support the rest of the army until the one supporting the Shadowsword dies. Since they're only 20 points each, and the "backups" are still supporting other units while they wait, they should be able to get their value back easily.
It seems like a waste. You roll the kill point mission and you lose. You are also going to lose first blood every game.
That's pretty much going to be the fate of playing Imperial Guard in general. IG will always basically auto-lose kill points, and whoever goes first will always get first blood. So I see no reason to worry about either, they're a foregone conclusion.
If you want to win kill-point missions and reliably get first blood, play Knights. Imperial Guard just has to write those things off.
ross-128 wrote: That's pretty much going to be the fate of playing Imperial Guard in general. IG will always basically auto-lose kill points, and whoever goes first will always get first blood. So I see no reason to worry about either, they're a foregone conclusion.
If you want to win kill-point missions and reliably get first blood, play Knights. Imperial Guard just has to write those things off.
I've been musing on an IG "finish deployment first while still brigading" type lists. How much efficiency would you loose if you loaded most things up in Stormlords and Valkyries and minimized other drops, I wonder.
ross-128 wrote: That's pretty much going to be the fate of playing Imperial Guard in general. IG will always basically auto-lose kill points, and whoever goes first will always get first blood. So I see no reason to worry about either, they're a foregone conclusion.
If you want to win kill-point missions and reliably get first blood, play Knights. Imperial Guard just has to write those things off.
I've been musing on an IG "finish deployment first while still brigading" type lists. How much efficiency would you loose if you loaded most things up in Stormlords and Valkyries and minimized other drops, I wonder.
Honestly, I don't know. It sure would make your army mobile though. Since Vendettas have a capacity of 12 now they might be better transport options than Valkyries, especially since Valkyries pay 130 points for their base model, Vendettas pay 110, but both have to pay for all of their weapons. Which means the Valkyrie isn't getting anything for those 20 extra points.
Also the Stormlord will probably single-handedly give you all the anti-infantry you could ever ask for, so the Vendetta's anti-tank would complement it better.
I've been musing on an IG "finish deployment first while still brigading" type lists. How much efficiency would you loose if you loaded most things up in Stormlords and Valkyries and minimized other drops, I wonder.
I keep contemplating the Vendetta for this. They're expensive, but gonna be so much more durable than HWS and they'll actually DO something other than moving units around, unlike the Valkyrie.
Quick question guys - do you think an infantry-only IG list could work if it used elite infantry (like Veterans and Scions) in place of Infantry Squads?
vipoid wrote: Quick question guys - do you think an infantry-only IG list could work if it used elite infantry (like Veterans and Scions) in place of Infantry Squads?
I think so. I would use Conscripts and Scions as troops, and look at Veterans to provide las/plas fire. It's easy to point to HWSs for anti-tank, but in a pure all infantry list, all of the enemy heavy wepaons will be pointed at the HWSs, and most of them will never fire. A lascannon buried with 10 wounds is a lot safer.
argonak wrote: Is it worth upgrading sentinels to lascannons or missile launchers? Or are they too fragile for the point cost of the weapon?
They are alright if you want an armoured sentinel to provide long range fire and not move. You trade points for durability. I will probably give lascannon armoured sentinels a go at some point.
argonak wrote: Is it worth upgrading sentinels to lascannons or missile launchers? Or are they too fragile for the point cost of the weapon?
I would say probably not, although there are certainly those that disagree. A sentinel is basically the same price as an infantry squad, which is far more durable against anti-tank weapons, but more fragile to volume shooting. Sentinels don't' have a great damage output no matter what you do, so basically I would use them mostly to protect flanks from deepstrikers. The Heavy Flamer takes advantage of the sentinels speed, while Lascannons have the range to not need to move much.
On the flip side, in a vehicle heavy list, Sentinels will likely not be the focus of heavy weapons, and can be a good platform for lascannons.
argonak wrote: Is it worth upgrading sentinels to lascannons or missile launchers? Or are they too fragile for the point cost of the weapon?
I would say probably not, although there are certainly those that disagree. A sentinel is basically the same price as an infantry squad, which is far more durable against anti-tank weapons, but more fragile to volume shooting. Sentinels don't' have a great damage output no matter what you do, so basically I would use them mostly to protect flanks from deepstrikers. The Heavy Flamer takes advantage of the sentinels speed, while Lascannons have the range to not need to move much.
My issue with this is that Heavy Flamers leave Sentinels completely open to assault (due to their short range). And given how awful Sentinels are in combat, this allows an enemy unit to easily lock them down.
I think I'd rather take a long-range weapon even if doing so limits my movement.
Yeah, I definitely think they're too fragile to be putting weapons on. I think if I wanted a turret-based alternative to a HWS, I'd go with the tarantula turrets for their 10-point bases (though their need to target the closest unit is certainly a downside). HWS, or perhaps better HWT embedded in an infantry squad, are probably more competitive than either turret option for heavy weapons.
A Saber searchlight paired with a hydra battery might make good AA though, it'd shift the Hydra from 3/4/5 (fly/zoom/ground) to 2/3/4, and your opponent would have to choose between shooting the searchlight or the hydra.
I think mixed weapon HWS might be a good compromise. Mortars are only 4.5 points per wound. In a 2 mortar 1 lascannon team, you'd have to lose 6 wounds to lose the cannon.
Best way to look at it is 120 pts gets you 20 dudes with 2 cannons or 126 points gets you 18 wounds with 3 cannons which also might not need a commisar due to low model count... oh and 6 mortars that can fire even if they're hiding in your backfield.
Oh man... after reading this thread, I realized that I should be spending even more points on my Shadowsword and finding some way to make a Salamander (since they don't seem to be up on the FW website)?
A griffon can be a good starting point for a salamander conversion, since a salamander is more or less a griffon with an autocannon instead of a mortar.
ross-128 wrote: A griffon can be a good starting point for a salamander conversion, since a salamander is more or less a griffon with an autocannon instead of a mortar.
The command one now has a heavy flamer, but I guess that's close enough?
ross-128 wrote: A griffon can be a good starting point for a salamander conversion, since a salamander is more or less a griffon with an autocannon instead of a mortar.
The command one now has a heavy flamer, but I guess that's close enough?
er... I don't think they sell those either.
Both of them are discontinued. Shame really, but they don't have the capacity to produce everything and with the HH being the success it is, old stuff had to go. I would have liked to pick up another 2 Griffons.
While expensive, putting a trojan support vehicle and a salamander command vehicle next to a shadowsword with full sponsons(but with twin heavy bolters ) might work well actually. it will hit on 3+(2+ against titanic foes) and reroll misses upon that, or perhaps you could save 100 points and just use one of thoose to just reroll misses, might perhaps be better points wise.
Trying to come up with a "core" of a TAC list ar 1500. The idea is that I can either slide additional units in, change the loadout, or both for larger games. Any thoughts or critiques are welcome!
ThePie wrote: While expensive, putting a trojan support vehicle and a salamander command vehicle next to a shadowsword with full sponsons(but with twin heavy bolters ) might work well actually. it will hit on 3+(2+ against titanic foes) and reroll misses upon that, or perhaps you could save 100 points and just use one of thoose to just reroll misses, might perhaps be better points wise.
I was thinking of using Harker to save a few points. He's just as good against Titanic units when reroll 1s is the same as reroll all misses. I figure that's the only time the volcano cannon really, really needs to hit. I think with a CP to reroll the number of attacks, it can probably take out any vehicle somewhat reliably at 3+, reroll 1s. He's easier to hide too.
Ir0njack wrote: Trying to come up with a "core" of a TAC list ar 1500. The idea is that I can either slide additional units in, change the loadout, or both for larger games. Any thoughts or critiques are welcome!
Hellhounds [ 220pts]
. Hellhound: Heavy Flamer, Turret-mounted Inferno Cannon
. Hellhound: Heavy Flamer, Turret-mounted Inferno Cannon
+ Heavy Support +
Heavy Weapons Squad [27pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
Heavy Weapons Squad [ 72pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
Leman Russ Battle Tanks [534pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolters
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolters
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolters
Nice core list! If you have tried H Flamers on russes I would recommend it! 1 of my standard russes will always have x3 H Flamers.
I pretty much will always include a heavy weapon in my infantry squads. Particularly a missile launcher. It's versatile to fire at vehicles and monster and do d6 damage with -2 or fire at infantry with d6 shots. Now that heavy weapons hit on 5's if they move I usually advance my squads.
The core to my army is:
30conscripts at the front. Followed by 3-4 infantry squads each with vox, melta and missile launcher.
I have 2 commanders and 2 commissars to hold the whole group together.
There's also a command squad with standard, vox and 2 plasma.
This infantry core has played 6 games this edition and advanced forward every game. It hasn't been destroyed or beaten yet.
I am limited to using Sentinels to fill the fast attack slots in my current list (infantry only, in so far as that is possible, and I have always hated the concept of rough riders).
So scout or armoured sentinels and what should they be armed with?
I am planning on using armoured with an autocannon and a hunter killer missile. This does make them 1 point more than a lascannon variant which would have a much better sustained damage output but as they are the only vehicles in the entire list should I just accept their swift demise and take the multilaser scout variant to minimise the cost?
So newbie question, but I'm trying to understand the advantages of taking conscripts in larger blocks as opposed to multiple smaller units that stick close together. Is it just better overwatch and orders efficiency?
I.e. If I'm trying to fill out a Brigade and want to run 40 cons with a Commander and commissar, is 2x20 worse than 1x40?
The commander gives 2 orders per turn, so that wouldn't be an issue, and if you keep the 2 con squads close, they'll both benefit from the commissar. Plus if one unit gets charged, the other is still free, and can provide fire support when the charged unit fails back.
If bigger blocks are better, I wanna use them; I'm just trying to see why most generals favor them
How does everyone feel about the Vulture as opposed to the Vendetta?
Sure the Vendetta will get you 6 lascannons at 230 points, but then you can get a vulture for 160 points with heavy 40 and a heavy bolter. Seems like it could be more cost effective for the points levels?
Naix wrote: How does everyone feel about the Vulture as opposed to the Vendetta?
Sure the Vendetta will get you 6 lascannons at 230 points, but then you can get a vulture for 160 points with heavy 40 and a heavy bolter. Seems like it could be more cost effective for the points levels?
Depends on what you need. The twin punisher will deal about 3 wounds to most heavy vehicles (T6+ Sv3+) little less than 4.5 against those with a 4+ save. A Vendetta can expect to deal almost double the wounds in the first case, and 7 in the second, and it can transport as well if that is of interest.
Against lighter units the Vulture wins without a doubt. So if you're facing monsterous creatures or lots of vehicles (or if you need a transport), I would take the Vendetta and otherwise the Vulture.
Then again, I would never take any of them because they are not artillery.
I think the fliers are going to be better used as they were back in 5th, pretty much in hover mode not moving. It drastically ups their damage. They are also not that squishy, being pretty much leman russes with -1t +2w.
Naix wrote: How does everyone feel about the Vulture as opposed to the Vendetta?
Sure the Vendetta will get you 6 lascannons at 230 points, but then you can get a vulture for 160 points with heavy 40 and a heavy bolter. Seems like it could be more cost effective for the points levels?
Depends on what you need. The twin punisher will deal about 3 wounds to most heavy vehicles (T6+ Sv3+) little less than 4.5 against those with a 4+ save. A Vendetta can expect to deal almost double the wounds in the first case, and 7 in the second, and it can transport as well if that is of interest.
Against lighter units the Vulture wins without a doubt. So if you're facing monsterous creatures or lots of vehicles (or if you need a transport), I would take the Vendetta and otherwise the Vulture.
Then again, I would never take any of them because they are not artillery.
The Vulture isn't stuck with the punisher cannons though; you can give it two lascannons and 2 hellstrike missiles (Str 8, AP-2, D6 damage roll two dice pick highest for damage, NOT one use only). You can also take 6 HKM for dirt cheap with your two lascannons for one powerful alpha strike. A Vulture hitting on 3s with either of those loadouts (the 6 AA missile loadout is also pretty amazing, but expensive) should be the one we compare to the Vendetta.
I think the Vendetta is pretty outclassed by the Vulture now, especially since if you try and take advantage of the Vendetta's transport capacity your neuter its damage.
Wow, played a 1000 pts game today against Tyranids to try out my new Scions, really impressed by the Command Squad. 2 Meltas and 2 Plasma guns, I dropped them and the Tempestor besides a unit of 3 Warriors and the reroll ones to hit order, and I melted them in one go. Afterwards the Command Squad got evaporated by shooting but still, impressed by the lethality of the thing. Going to keep only one though, don't want to overwhelm my AdMech army with other models and I want to stay classy to my opponent. It will hurt less when it's going to get nerfed too haha
You know, I was thinking about my earlier statement of "if you want to go first and win on kill points, play knights".
I was thinking that we can use a LoW detachment too now. Baneblades are pretty comparable to Knights, to be honest, and unlike Knights we can bring support units for them. What if we tried to make a Baneblade death star? It's almost like playing Knights, but with tanks.
From the looks of it, in a 2000 point list I probably can fit in 3 Shadowswords (or equivalently costed variants) with full HB sponsons, a Salamander command tank, a Trojan support vehicle, and a company commander as a tax for those elite slots. If only I could use a platoon commander for the tax, then I could swap one of the Shadowswords for one of the 390 point Baneblade variants to squeeze out enough points for a techpriest.
I kind of would like to replace one of the Shadowswords with a Stormlord to give the list a little more anti-infantry instead of being so focused on titan-slaying, but the mandatory heavy stubber the Stormlord comes with pushes it 2 points over. Though maybe if I dropped one pair of sponsons I could have that plus a techpriest. Considering a 3-Baneblade list would only have 78 wounds total, having a techpriest would probably be useful.
Hmm, the Macharius Vulcan probably would be a good substitute, especially with its ability to sit still and fire twice (or time travel, in its current state).
So I have a bunch of Scions (which I bought in 7th) and I'm not sure the best things to put with them. I know the current "meta" thing is a bunch of Conscripts and Yarrick, but I'm not really about that life.
My main thoughts are split between three options:
1) Pure Scions, using Tauroxes and Valkyries on the table
2) More AM, maybe Artillery and a Baneblade variant or something similar
3) Some sort of tough melee/midfield unit like TWC, Grey Knights, Ravenwing, Kastellan Robots, etc.
Naix wrote: How does everyone feel about the Vulture as opposed to the Vendetta?
Sure the Vendetta will get you 6 lascannons at 230 points, but then you can get a vulture for 160 points with heavy 40 and a heavy bolter. Seems like it could be more cost effective for the points levels?
Depends on what you need. The twin punisher will deal about 3 wounds to most heavy vehicles (T6+ Sv3+) little less than 4.5 against those with a 4+ save. A Vendetta can expect to deal almost double the wounds in the first case, and 7 in the second, and it can transport as well if that is of interest.
Against lighter units the Vulture wins without a doubt. So if you're facing monsterous creatures or lots of vehicles (or if you need a transport), I would take the Vendetta and otherwise the Vulture.
Then again, I would never take any of them because they are not artillery.
The Vulture isn't stuck with the punisher cannons though; you can give it two lascannons and 2 hellstrike missiles (Str 8, AP-2, D6 damage roll two dice pick highest for damage, NOT one use only). You can also take 6 HKM for dirt cheap with your two lascannons for one powerful alpha strike. A Vulture hitting on 3s with either of those loadouts (the 6 AA missile loadout is also pretty amazing, but expensive) should be the one we compare to the Vendetta.
I think the Vendetta is pretty outclassed by the Vulture now, especially since if you try and take advantage of the Vendetta's transport capacity your neuter its damage.
A Vulture with twin lascannon and two hellstrike missiles are 200 points (112 base, 8 heavy bolter, 40 for two hellstrike missiles and 40 for the twin lascannon), and still deals less damage to vehicles if I've done my math correctly. Of course, the 6 hunter-killers are scary, but each hunter-killer has an expected value of about one wound against heavier vehicles, and .perhaps 1.3 against lighter. In fact, if the Vendetta shoots twice it should better and your Vulture now has two lascannons and a heavy bolter.
The Vulture may be more flexible, but it's never as good as the Vendetta at dealing with hard targets (unless both die after one shooting phase and the Vulture has hunter-killers), and if you're wanting anti-air, why not a Thunderbolt or something? Besides, the Vendetta has actual in-game flexibility as it can transport if that is necessary, and otherwise it does its job just fine. The Vulture has one specific load-out as well, but cannot do anything but fight.
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RegulusBlack wrote: The Sabre Defense Platform - Searchlights, are those Heavy Weapon Slots and are they cumulative?
One Sabre Weapons Battery (1-3 Sabre Platforms) is a heavy support choice. The rule is literally:
Defence Searchlight: If this model has a defence searchlight, at the start of each Shooting phase it may select a single enemy model within 48" and line of sight. One friendly <REGIMENT> unit that attacks the chosen unit, adds 1 to any hit rolls until the end of the Shooting phase
I would say that it is not cumulative, besides the obvious problem with selecting a single model and then referring to a chosen unit.
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ross-128 wrote: Hmm, the Macharius Vulcan probably would be a good substitute, especially with its ability to sit still and fire twice (or time travel, in its current state).
Well, if anyone tries to fight you, just use it as written and fire twice, once in the shooting phase before. But then you have to replay the target unit's turn, as it may have lost additional models and suffered morale damage, as well as being less effective in general.
Unit1126PLL wrote: If you guys have any superheavy questions I would be happy to answer them. Been running 3 tank companies for a while now and own all the variants!
I'd love to hear your thoughts on most of them. Ever run one with a Titan or dual heavies? I want to pick up one and run it with my Acheron.
I used an Astropath (15pts) to give a 2+ save to my stormlord. It was OP... but the super-heavy died in 2-3 turns anyway. A engineseer might be necessary. In that tank I put 24 special weapon guys (=12 plasma). It was very strong!
I think tarantulas with twin lascannon are very effective. 150pt for 6 shots, a total of 15w at T5. They are small enough to get cover easily. The restriction to shoot at the closest non-infantry unit is not so much a big deal when you have other anti-vehicle units. I'll play 9 tarantulas in my next game and let you know.
Do you think the manticore battery is better than the tank? The missiles are not the same. The tank's : 2d6 s10 -2 D3. The battery's : d6 s9 -1 D6. The battery is 35pts cheaper but has -4w and -1save. I think the battery is better since in the end the damage output is the same (even though the battery has less shots, d6 is twice as good as d3 damage).
Do you think the DKK Grenadier Centaur Light Assault is worth it? I'm not sold on grenadiers. DKK Engineers seem good by the way. Has anyone tried them?
DKK has access to heavy flamer in HWT. 22pts each, 66pts for 3d6 automatic hits. Seems good, no? Obviously, they need a transport, but which one?
If the missiles were the same it would be, much like the earthshaker is, but going from 2d6 to 1d6 kills it in my opinion.
I think the two most efficient artillery options are either the manticore on tracks, with its 2d6 shots for 133 points, or an earthshaker platform with its 2d6 drop lowest for 80 points.
1d6 instead of 2d6 has the exact same damage output when the damage is d6 instead of d3. But the AP of the battery's missile is -3 instead of -2. It seems a better weapon overall, and cheaper.
My Tempestus Scion set just came in the mail. I'm going to make a Taurox Prime.
I haven't decided what to do about the autocannon and volley guns, I really don't like their placement on the side of the vehicle.
I plan on magnetizing it to switch between the battle cannon and the gatling gun, but I don't see much advantage in the missile launcher as an option, am I off base?
argonak wrote: My Tempestus Scion set just came in the mail. I'm going to make a Taurox Prime.
I haven't decided what to do about the autocannon and volley guns, I really don't like their placement on the side of the vehicle.
I plan on magnetizing it to switch between the battle cannon and the gatling gun, but I don't see much advantage in the missile launcher as an option, am I off base?
Well the missile launcher is quite expensive, and what it will do is normally better covered by the rest of your army so I'd stay out of it, don't expect your Taurox to live more than 2 turns if you want to unload your passengers in range for their weapons. 2d6 hits at 48" looks nice on paper but you could just have the cheaper Gatling that does 20 hits flat at 24". Your Taurox shouldn't be parked at 48" of your targets anyway, there's other units that do that job better. Use your Taurox as a saturation shooting platform after you disembarked your guys, because the pilots know it was a one-way trip so might as well use it to the fullest.
RenegadeKorps wrote: 1d6 instead of 2d6 has the exact same damage output when the damage is d6 instead of d3. But the AP of the battery's missile is -3 instead of -2. It seems a better weapon overall, and cheaper.
Less shots and more damage make the missiles far worse against infantry, where anything above 2 damage is mostly useless. Also, 2d6 shots gives a more consistent average number, avoiding some of the extreme swing of a 1d6 weapon.
Requizen wrote: All my Tauroxes are glued with Missiles on the top... Am I going to be sad?
I'm new to this edition of 40k, but no one I ever played with in the old days made a big deal of WYSIWYG as long as you clearly told them what things were and were willing to remind them later. We used to just swap army lists when I played WFB, and we helped each other remember what we had. But then I almost always played with friends or at least acquaintances I was on friendly terms with.
If you still have your turrets you could probably find a way to modify the Tauroxes to take them with a magnet. I'm quite liking the vehicle, other than the silly tracks. And I have wheels on order from Victoria miniatures to fix that. From a model perspective, GW really packed a lot of detail and options into a relatively simple model. I'm impressed.
I just gotta figure out what to do with these autocannons/volley guns.
argonak wrote: My Tempestus Scion set just came in the mail. I'm going to make a Taurox Prime.
I haven't decided what to do about the autocannon and volley guns, I really don't like their placement on the side of the vehicle.
I plan on magnetizing it to switch between the battle cannon and the gatling gun, but I don't see much advantage in the missile launcher as an option, am I off base?
Well the missile launcher is quite expensive, and what it will do is normally better covered by the rest of your army so I'd stay out of it, don't expect your Taurox to live more than 2 turns if you want to unload your passengers in range for their weapons. 2d6 hits at 48" looks nice on paper but you could just have the cheaper Gatling that does 20 hits flat at 24". Your Taurox shouldn't be parked at 48" of your targets anyway, there's other units that do that job better. Use your Taurox as a saturation shooting platform after you disembarked your guys, because the pilots know it was a one-way trip so might as well use it to the fullest.
Yeah that's what I was figuring. I think with a little plasticard I can make a replacement roof and then magnetize it so it attaches to the existing roof. I just wasn't sure if it was worth the effort.
Unit1126PLL wrote: If you guys have any superheavy questions I would be happy to answer them. Been running 3 tank companies for a while now and own all the variants!
I'd love to hear your thoughts on most of them. Ever run one with a Titan or dual heavies? I want to pick up one and run it with my Acheron.
My tank companies are 3 of the same tank for consistency, but mixed tank companies would actually be more competitive I believe.
I wouldn't run it with a Titan this edition; Titans are very expensive and in order to field three vehicles you'll need a ton of points; Baneblades and their variants are comparatively cheap. As for the Acheron - I think that'd be a fantastic aide to a few of the Baneblade platforms, such as Shadowswords, but generally Baneblades want to be in combat with hordes so perhaps bringing something to frighten off or distract enemy heavy anti-tank assets (rather than hordes) which the Baneblades themselves will have difficulty confronting by themselves would be good. For example, in the absence of a Shadowsword, a Porphyrion or a Atrapos would be awesome.
Pseudomonas wrote: I will be using sentinels as a fast attack 'tax', minimalist scout sentinels or armoured with weapon upgrades ad if so, which?
The prevailing opinions thus far are:
1. Scout sentinel with heavy flamer. Deploy far forwards into cover with scout move, deny deepstriking space, and harass/screen troops. Always fall back if they charge so they eat more overwatch.
2. Armored sentinel with lascannon. More antitank in your gun line. That's about it.
I'm a little more of a fan of option 1, but both are decent options. Other weapons and wargear are essentially wasted points, however.
Heavy Weapons - 3x Mortar
Heavy Weapons - 3x Lascannon
Heavy Weapons - 3x Autocannon
Wyvern
Basilisk
Manticore
Superheavy Shadowsword - both sponsons
1975/2000
Focusing on backfield long range shooting, and then Scions to drop forward and go for objectives. Not sure which artillery pieces are best, so I took a mix.
I went out and bought 4 boxes of scions to make into 4 command squads loaded with plasma looking for that alpha/beta strike on one of my peeps AM list. In my second 8E game I ran 2 command squads and dropped them near his pack of Russes. I believe I killed one tank which didn't explode. Then in his turn he killed both command squads and a second IK Knight. Lesson learned? Artillery/Russes are king in the AM world.
If I could do a null deployment I'd go straight command squads with plasma and tempestor primes and always lose the kill point game
I just bought a shadowsword but I fear he will befall the same fate as my pair of knights in my last game (of course it helped that he went first and we were playing the long board). But the model is cool and will be fun to watch roll around the terrain for a turn or two before blowing up...and for the same points I could be rocking 3 bassies and 2 manticores.
The other problem I've found with running shadowsword is that (for me anyway) if you go to Nova you'll be giving up a secondary as kill a detachment is a secondary.
necron99 wrote: The other problem I've found with running shadowsword is that (for me anyway) if you go to Nova you'll be giving up a secondary as kill a detachment is a secondary.
If thats a problem then take Supreme Command detachment. It allows one LoW and since it also includes 3 HQ, it is much harder to wipe out.
argonak wrote: My Tempestus Scion set just came in the mail. I'm going to make a Taurox Prime.
I haven't decided what to do about the autocannon and volley guns, I really don't like their placement on the side of the vehicle.
Try building the main gun as normal, then mounting a single autocannon or volley gun on the other side of the turret.
Displays your choice of wargear while avoiding the side mounts, and looks more balanced than trying to cram both auto/volley on the turret.
TankCmdr wrote: So newbie question, but I'm trying to understand the advantages of taking conscripts in larger blocks as opposed to multiple smaller units that stick close together. Is it just better overwatch and orders efficiency?
I.e. If I'm trying to fill out a Brigade and want to run 40 cons with a Commander and commissar, is 2x20 worse than 1x40?
The commander gives 2 orders per turn, so that wouldn't be an issue, and if you keep the 2 con squads close, they'll both benefit from the commissar. Plus if one unit gets charged, the other is still free, and can provide fire support when the charged unit fails back.
If bigger blocks are better, I wanna use them; I'm just trying to see why most generals favor them
If you're trying to fill out a Brigade 6 x 10 man Infantry squads are the cheaper way to go. You'd end up with less guys. (60 rather than 120) and In points 6 x 40 rather than 6 x 50 (important if youre trying to fill out the brigade while keeping pts down) but as you said separate squads with separate lines would allow counter attacks. With the new consolidate rules I'd be afraid that a large blob would allow the enemy to consolidate into a near by unit.
I get that with Straken, a priest and a commisar your would give your conscritps plus two attacks and an effective leadership of 8 but I feel the WS of 4+ and BS of 4+ of the infantry would mean they'd do more damage.
Also I don't feel like buying and painting 120 models...
Does anyone have any experience laying out AM gunlines so as to prevent the enemy from consolidating into the next line following the fight phase. Will a 4" gap between each straight line of infantry guarantee the line behind will get to shoot (and then charge) the next turn?
Otto von Bludd wrote: The Taurox missile launcher is a really good all purpose option paired with the autocannons. I think it's the best variant personally.
argonak wrote: My Tempestus Scion set just came in the mail. I'm going to make a Taurox Prime.
I haven't decided what to do about the autocannon and volley guns, I really don't like their placement on the side of the vehicle.
Try building the main gun as normal, then mounting a single autocannon or volley gun on the other side of the turret.
Displays your choice of wargear while avoiding the side mounts, and looks more balanced than trying to cram both auto/volley on the turret.
I played a 2000 pts game against Grey Knight. Three turns of shooting and everything he had was dead. He played 2 stormravens, 2x5 terminators, draigo, 2 dread knights. His list was weak imo.
I had 12 plasma3x4=12 plasma tempestus command squad (arrived turn 3 when all the job was done) 2 earthshaker carriages (I will convert them to play the battery since there is no reason to take the carriage) 9 tarantulas twin lascannon (they were apparently my opponent's priory target; Imo they are very good, but not game breaking) 2x2=4 medusas carriage 2 commissars Yarrick (not sure he's worth it; I take him only for the re-roll; to make its point back, he has to be around units worth together six times its price since he ''adds'' 1/6 shot : it means at least 800 pts of units must be within 6'' of him at all time; not impossible though. EDIT : wow Harker has the same buff for 50pts! totally worth it.) 3x20 = 60 conscripts 1 Void shield generator (my opponent said it was game changing because It helped my conscripts keep the line) 3 defence searchlights (they were good when I didn't forget them; my opponent apparently ignored them) and... best unit of the game... tadam : 6 cyclops demolition vehicles. Totally brutal. They won't be ignored next time... 2 astropaths -- competing for the best unit spot.
No orders. I used to play Renegades so I forget to include them in my lists. The new Imperial Guard is very similar to 7th edition Renegades.
Requizen wrote: So the Superheavy tanks don't ignore the -1 to hit when moving and firing Heavy? Seems odd that they don't when Leman Russes have a rule for it.
Where is the rule that says they don't I must have missed that.
Ir0njack wrote: Trying to come up with a "core" of a TAC list ar 1500. The idea is that I can either slide additional units in, change the loadout, or both for larger games. Any thoughts or critiques are welcome!
Hellhounds [ 220pts] . Hellhound: Heavy Flamer, Turret-mounted Inferno Cannon . Hellhound: Heavy Flamer, Turret-mounted Inferno Cannon
+ Heavy Support +
Heavy Weapons Squad [27pts] . Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar . Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar . Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
Heavy Weapons Squad [ 72pts] . Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon . Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon . Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
Leman Russ Battle Tanks [534pts] . Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolters . Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolters . Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolters
Cool list dude but you're so close to a brigade and those sweet sweet 9 re-rolls. Hell you could easily run a separate spearhead with the Leman Russes just by replacing them with a 27 pt mortar team (or a 36pt Heavy bolter team) and giving them a Company commander/upgrading one of the commisars with a Lord Commisar. It would cost 16 conscripts (19 for the Heavy bolters) but an extra re-roll, Lord commisar (including his better leadership, power sword and ballistic skill) plus three heavy bolters are probably going to do more damage than the conscripts.
Have you thought about the Straken, Priest, combo for your conscript blobs, +2 attacks combined with any nearby commisars "discipline" would make them a pretty good fighting force. Thats before Straken gives two of the blobs re-roll 1s to wound.
At 1st glance Manticore batteries seemed awesome. D6 lascannon shots for less than 75% of the cost of a Manticore. Then I saw they have to buy their rockets 4 times for 4 rockets leaving it 5 points under the cost of a regular Manticore.
Renegades are disappointing except for ogres and their dogs and malefic lords. Unnatural vigor is insane, but needs a little 10+ every turn. Definitely worth burning a command point on the roll if one of the dice is already a 6.
Ir0njack wrote: Trying to come up with a "core" of a TAC list ar 1500. The idea is that I can either slide additional units in, change the loadout, or both for larger games. Any thoughts or critiques are welcome!
Hellhounds [ 220pts]
. Hellhound: Heavy Flamer, Turret-mounted Inferno Cannon
. Hellhound: Heavy Flamer, Turret-mounted Inferno Cannon
+ Heavy Support +
Heavy Weapons Squad [27pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
Heavy Weapons Squad [ 72pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
Leman Russ Battle Tanks [534pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolters
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolters
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolters
Cool list dude but you're so close to a brigade and those sweet sweet 9 re-rolls. Hell you could easily run a separate spearhead with the Leman Russes just by replacing them with a 27 pt mortar team (or a 36pt Heavy bolter team) and giving them a Company commander/upgrading one of the commisars with a Lord Commisar. It would cost 16 conscripts (19 for the Heavy bolters) but an extra re-roll, Lord commisar (including his better leadership, power sword and ballistic skill) plus three heavy bolters are probably going to do more damage than the conscripts.
Have you thought about the Straken, Priest, combo for your conscript blobs, +2 attacks combined with any nearby commisars "discipline" would make them a pretty good fighting force. Thats before Straken gives two of the blobs re-roll 1s to wound.
Orders math hammer 18 conscripts for number of wound rolls
FRFSRF 24 wound rolls from flashlights, 18 from CC=42
Bring it down 12 from flashlight, 18 CC= 30 hits+6 from rerolls to wound =36
Fix bayonets= 36 CC hits when already locked in CC.
Well it seems most games in the local meta are going to be in the 100pw/2000pt range so this was my attempt at a "Core" that can be filled out woyh things like priest, psykers, MOAR conscripts, infantry squads, etc etc. I'll more than likely push it oit to fill a brigade in most cases but really wanted to get other eyes on it first as I'm almost exclusively casual so noy the greateat at building "good" lists.
Anyways, thanks for the feedback, you folks definitely have me some idea to work on!
At 1st glance Manticore batteries seemed awesome. D6 lascannon shots for less than 75% of the cost of a Manticore. Then I saw they have to buy their rockets 4 times for 4 rockets leaving it 5 points under the cost of a regular Manticore.
I did not notice, thanks. I can only hope it is an oversight. It should be 10 pts for all 4 missiles. Even then, though, it is better point investment than the tank for the damage output (I did the math). Still, the tarantula twinlascannon is the superior choice.
Page 10 – Astra Militarum Army List
Add the following rule:
‘Matched Play – Command Squads If you are playing a matched play game, a Battle-forged army can include a maximum of one <Regiment> Command Squad (pg 15) in a Detachment for each <Regiment> Officer in that Detachment. Similarly, if you are playing a matched play game, a Battleforged army can include a maximum of one Militarum Tempestus Command Squad (pg 51) in a Detachment for each Tempestor Prime (pg 50) in that Detachment.
So, no more spamming MT Command Squads unless you also plan to spam Tempestor Primes along with them.
Page 10 – Astra Militarum Army List
Add the following rule:
‘Matched Play – Command Squads If you are playing a matched play game, a Battle-forged army can include a maximum of one <Regiment> Command Squad (pg 15) in a Detachment for each <Regiment> Officer in that Detachment. Similarly, if you are playing a matched play game, a Battleforged army can include a maximum of one Militarum Tempestus Command Squad (pg 51) in a Detachment for each Tempestor Prime (pg 50) in that Detachment.
So, no more spamming MT Command Squads unless you also plan to spam Tempestor Primes along with them.
So very not surprised. Regular MT Scion squads FTW
In all honesty this is a weak nerf. I expected scions to go up in cost and plasmaguns to be nerfed across the board given how much better then grenade launchers and poorly melta works w deepstrike. Command squads isn't that big a deal as people said regular scion squads are still awesome.
And the match play undersized unit ruling is ripe for abuse.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Colonel Cross wrote: They also nerfed the crap out of the Void Shield Generator :( haha I was going to have some fun with that.
I read it quickly what got nerfed? Sounded like they completely removed the damage chart. How is that a nerf?
Played my first game today with my Scions against Dark Eldar. Put my list together before the FAQ dropped but still only brought 3 Tempestus Command Squads and 3 Primes, so it all worked out
A bunch of drop Scions, 5 Tauroxes, and a Knight vs Bikes, some transports with dudes, and a few Talos Engines. Ended up calling it on T4 since he only had a few units left and I controlled 3/4 of the objectives on Big Guns, and he hadn't put a scratch on the Knight.
Quite powerful. I feel like maybe 2 Knights with Scions would be better, since armies with ranged anti-tank could bust it T1, but honestly the Tauroxes did most of the heavy lifting. Their shooting is so strong and long ranged, and they aren't exactly made of paper.
Page 10 – Astra Militarum Army List
Add the following rule:
‘Matched Play – Command Squads If you are playing a matched play game, a Battle-forged army can include a maximum of one <Regiment> Command Squad (pg 15) in a Detachment for each <Regiment> Officer in that Detachment. Similarly, if you are playing a matched play game, a Battleforged army can include a maximum of one Militarum Tempestus Command Squad (pg 51) in a Detachment for each Tempestor Prime (pg 50) in that Detachment.
So, no more spamming MT Command Squads unless you also plan to spam Tempestor Primes along with them.
So very not surprised. Regular MT Scion squads FTW
Regular scion squads hits no where as hard as a CS with 2 less special weapons and not very cost effective for suicide drop purposes. Still better than nothing lol
Requizen wrote: Played my first game today with my Scions against Dark Eldar. Put my list together before the FAQ dropped but still only brought 3 Tempestus Command Squads and 3 Primes, so it all worked out
A bunch of drop Scions, 5 Tauroxes, and a Knight vs Bikes, some transports with dudes, and a few Talos Engines. Ended up calling it on T4 since he only had a few units left and I controlled 3/4 of the objectives on Big Guns, and he hadn't put a scratch on the Knight.
Quite powerful. I feel like maybe 2 Knights with Scions would be better, since armies with ranged anti-tank could bust it T1, but honestly the Tauroxes did most of the heavy lifting. Their shooting is so strong and long ranged, and they aren't exactly made of paper.
Out of curiosity, what sort of loadouts did you run on your Tauroxes?
Requizen wrote: Played my first game today with my Scions against Dark Eldar. Put my list together before the FAQ dropped but still only brought 3 Tempestus Command Squads and 3 Primes, so it all worked out
A bunch of drop Scions, 5 Tauroxes, and a Knight vs Bikes, some transports with dudes, and a few Talos Engines. Ended up calling it on T4 since he only had a few units left and I controlled 3/4 of the objectives on Big Guns, and he hadn't put a scratch on the Knight.
Quite powerful. I feel like maybe 2 Knights with Scions would be better, since armies with ranged anti-tank could bust it T1, but honestly the Tauroxes did most of the heavy lifting. Their shooting is so strong and long ranged, and they aren't exactly made of paper.
Out of curiosity, what sort of loadouts did you run on your Tauroxes?
Missiles and Autocannons. Expensive, but powerful.
What's the thoughts about Primaris Psykers ? For 40 pts, having a Psyker with 2 powers looks good. And, as Sisters of Silence no longer hinder your own Psykers I'm considering adding one or two in my army. Wyrdvane Psykers look awful (and their models, ugh) and the Astropath looks like a very specific support, maybe to help some Snipers ? I already have a 7 points Omnispex to negate Cover.
Regular scion squads hits no where as hard as a CS with 2 less special weapons and not very cost effective for suicide drop purposes. Still better than nothing lol
Why do you say that a regular scion squad has 2 less special weapons than a scion command squad? They can both take four.
Regular scion squads hits no where as hard as a CS with 2 less special weapons and not very cost effective for suicide drop purposes. Still better than nothing lol
Why do you say that a regular scion squad has 2 less special weapons than a scion command squad? They can both take four.
Yeah we may very well see more maxed out Scion squads now for those 4 specials. Plus, bullet catchers are always nice.
Aaranis wrote: What's the thoughts about Primaris Psykers ? For 40 pts, having a Psyker with 2 powers looks good. And, as Sisters of Silence no longer hinder your own Psykers I'm considering adding one or two in my army. Wyrdvane Psykers look awful (and their models, ugh) and the Astropath looks like a very specific support, maybe to help some Snipers ? I already have a 7 points Omnispex to negate Cover.
I like using one astropath to buff the saving throw for Pask so that his tank gets a 2+ save.
gungo wrote: In all honesty this is a weak nerf. I expected scions to go up in cost and plasmaguns to be nerfed across the board given how much better then grenade launchers and poorly melta works w deepstrike. Command squads isn't that big a deal as people said regular scion squads are still awesome.
And the match play undersized unit ruling is ripe for abuse.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Colonel Cross wrote: They also nerfed the crap out of the Void Shield Generator :( haha I was going to have some fun with that.
I read it quickly what got nerfed? Sounded like they completely removed the damage chart. How is that a nerf?
Halved the bubble to wholly within 6", reduced the invuln to 5+.
Regular scion squads hits no where as hard as a CS with 2 less special weapons and not very cost effective for suicide drop purposes. Still better than nothing lol
Why do you say that a regular scion squad has 2 less special weapons than a scion command squad? They can both take four.
Yeah we may very well see more maxed out Scion squads now for those 4 specials. Plus, bullet catchers are always nice.
I'd been leaning toward running them maxed even before the FAQ. Hot Shots are pretty solid this edition, depending on the matchup, and they can sometimes finish the job the plasma gunners started, especially if that job was hunting heavy infantry. I'll be running 2x10 with Prime in most lists.
gungo wrote: In all honesty this is a weak nerf. I expected scions to go up in cost and plasmaguns to be nerfed across the board given how much better then grenade launchers and poorly melta works w deepstrike. Command squads isn't that big a deal as people said regular scion squads are still awesome.
And the match play undersized unit ruling is ripe for abuse.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Colonel Cross wrote: They also nerfed the crap out of the Void Shield Generator :( haha I was going to have some fun with that.
I read it quickly what got nerfed? Sounded like they completely removed the damage chart. How is that a nerf?
Halved the bubble to wholly within 6", reduced the invuln to 5+.
Look at it from a tactical perspective, it is a nerf (not even talking about the bubble size) because with the damage chart your opponent had a valid tactical choice;
Shoot the VSG, do some damage and reduce it's effectiveness OR
Shoot the units it's protecting and deal with the increased invuln.
Now there's no point in shooting the VSG unless you intend to fully delete it -- there's no deliberate play to reduce its effectiveness.
One amusing thing is Elysians didn't get hit quite as hard by the command squad cap as Scions did, because they can unlock a command squad with a 30-point platoon commander (though that PC does take up an elite slot, which is likely to be a rather scarce resource if you're running drop squads).
In terms of cost breakdown for two full squads:
Elysian command squads: 60 points for 2 PCs, 56 points for 8 Elysian veterans, 56 points for 8 plasma guns, 172 points total.
Scion command squads: 80 points for two TPs, 72 points for 8 Scions, 56 points for 8 plasma guns, 208 points total. (but you do get 4+ armor)
Scion trooper squads: 40 points for one TP, 180 points for 20 Scions, 56 points for 8 plasma guns, 12 points for 10 hot-shot lasguns and 2 hot-shot laspistols, 288 points total (so you basically pay 80 points for 12 extra bodies with hot-shots)
Elysian Veteran squads: 40 points for CC, 140 points for 20 Elysian veterans, 42 points for 6 plasma guns, 222 points total.
Elysian SWS: 40 points for CC, 60 points for 12 Elysian infantry, 42 points for 6 plasma guns, 142 points (downside is, the SWS is BS4+)
Trying to figure out the best way to kill infantry at 36" range or longer. I was going to go with the Taurox Prime (so efficient it's crazy) but I don't like that I can't buff its ballistic skill at all, especially when it hits on 4+ if it moves.
Is there some way to buff the BS (or give re-rolls to) a Taurox Prime other than Yarrick?
I had planned to use defense searchlights to increase the Prime's ballistic skill but I see that they buff REGIMENT units, and I see that the Taurox prime has a REGIMENT of Tempestus and that apparently you can't choose for your REGIMENT to be Militarum Tempestus.
So what's a good long range infantry killer to use? Wyverns? Heavy Quad Launcher Batteries? I think I might like those better anyhow since I can grab what's his face to give re-rolls of 1 to hit to catachans, and I like catachans....but I just feel like the Taurox is just so ridiculously efficient
Mortar HWS are good if you can hide them out of LoS, and the Taurox Prime is still pretty good despite its inability to receive buffs.
The vast majority of our good anti-infantry options are within 24" range now though, because most of our blast weapons got changed to be mostly anti-tank and most of our long-range anti-infantry used to be blast weapons. So in general the best way to kill infantry as Guard now is to just get within 24" and hit them with lasguns (or a Punisher).
A cluster of Earthshaker platforms huddling around a Salamander Command Tank and Trojan Support vehicle might make good general-purpose fire support base though. Each Earthshaker would be rolling 2d6 dropping the lowest for shots (so should be getting around 4 most of the time), hitting on 3+ thanks to the Salamander, and re-rolling all misses thanks to the Trojan. So while it may not have the most volume of fire, the support auras it's getting sure would make it accurate. Much like the mortar teams you'll want to hide them somewhere out of LoS, especially since Earthshakers explode on 3+ for some reason.
If you have a lot of vehicles, one thing that can provide a bit of an anti-infantry boost at 36" is to stick a heavy stubber on everything that can take one. It's 3 S4 shots at 36" for just 4 points, it adds up.
MacPhail wrote: I'd been leaning toward running them maxed even before the FAQ. Hot Shots are pretty solid this edition, depending on the matchup, and they can sometimes finish the job the plasma gunners started, especially if that job was hunting heavy infantry. I'll be running 2x10 with Prime in most lists.
That's what I've been running, and they've been all stars. Basic hotshot lasguns do work against heavy infantry, and 10 men with 4+ saves are tougher in 8th than you realize, especially if you can drop into cover.
U02dah4 wrote: Isn't military tempests a regiment so can't you name tempestus the regiment for the platoon commander
No.
Also cleared up in the FAQ, along with no regiments called Militarum Auxillia as well.
that one actually annoyed me. there's nothing OP or unfluffy about assigning officers to abhuman regiments. It seemed gamey, but it also was a good way to get a bit more out of some mid level units.
ross-128 wrote: Mortar HWS are good if you can hide them out of LoS, and the Taurox Prime is still pretty good despite its inability to receive buffs.
The vast majority of our good anti-infantry options are within 24" range now though, because most of our blast weapons got changed to be mostly anti-tank and most of our long-range anti-infantry used to be blast weapons. So in general the best way to kill infantry as Guard now is to just get within 24" and hit them with lasguns (or a Punisher).
A cluster of Earthshaker platforms huddling around a Salamander Command Tank and Trojan Support vehicle might make good general-purpose fire support base though. Each Earthshaker would be rolling 2d6 dropping the lowest for shots (so should be getting around 4 most of the time), hitting on 3+ thanks to the Salamander, and re-rolling all misses thanks to the Trojan. So while it may not have the most volume of fire, the support auras it's getting sure would make it accurate. Much like the mortar teams you'll want to hide them somewhere out of LoS, especially since Earthshakers explode on 3+ for some reason.
If you have a lot of vehicles, one thing that can provide a bit of an anti-infantry boost at 36" is to stick a heavy stubber on everything that can take one. It's 3 S4 shots at 36" for just 4 points, it adds up.
I think I'd sooner just take Harken and call my guys Catachan (which I certainly plan to do anyhow) to give re-rolls of 1 to the artillery. The Sabre defense searchlights can boost the ballistic skill of anything regiment, so the earthshakers are already set. But I think you're right that the Taurox prime is still more effective even without the ballistic skill buffs
has it been mentioned(and i'm sorry if it has) that technically a tempestor prime cant issue any orders since it doesn't have the <Regiment> keyword?
scions also cant receive them...
is this just being ignored for now?
Voice of Command - This unit may issue one order per turn at the start of their shooting phase. Orders may only be issued to Infantry units within 6" of this unit that have the same <REGIMENT> keyword as this unit. To issue an order pick a target unit and choose which order you wish to issue from the ORDERS table. A unit may only be affected by one order per turn.
usernamesareannoying wrote: has it been mentioned(and i'm sorry if it has) that technically a tempestor prime cant issue any orders since it doesn't have the <Regiment> keyword?
scions also cant receive them...
is this just being ignored for now?
Voice of Command - This unit may issue one order per turn at the start of their shooting phase. Orders may only be issued to Infantry units within 6" of this unit that have the same <REGIMENT> keyword as this unit. To issue an order pick a target unit and choose which order you wish to issue from the ORDERS table. A unit may only be affected by one order per turn.
The Militarum Tempestus are considered to be their own regiment as of page 10 of the Imperium 2 codex, so the Tempestor Prime can issue orders to other Tempestus Units.
usernamesareannoying wrote: has it been mentioned(and i'm sorry if it has) that technically a tempestor prime cant issue any orders since it doesn't have the <Regiment> keyword?
scions also cant receive them...
is this just being ignored for now?
Voice of Command - This unit may issue one order per turn at the start of their shooting phase. Orders may only be issued to Infantry units within 6" of this unit that have the same <REGIMENT> keyword as this unit. To issue an order pick a target unit and choose which order you wish to issue from the ORDERS table. A unit may only be affected by one order per turn.
'Militarum Tempestus' is a <regiment>. You're just not allowed to choose it as the <regiment> for other units.
MSU to the extreme, but should be able to play at almost all ranges - close up with dudes and Hellhounds, ranged with Manticores and Taurox Missiles.
Not sure if the Manticores/Hellhounds are better or worse than a Superheavy like a Knight or Shadowsword, but it is a lot less "eggs in one basket". Worried about the SHV getting one-shot if the meta shifts that way, this way the power is spread out across the army.
MSU to the extreme, but should be able to play at almost all ranges - close up with dudes and Hellhounds, ranged with Manticores and Taurox Missiles.
Not sure if the Manticores/Hellhounds are better or worse than a Superheavy like a Knight or Shadowsword, but it is a lot less "eggs in one basket". Worried about the SHV getting one-shot if the meta shifts that way, this way the power is spread out across the army.
Aren't you literally one troops and one Heavy away from a Brigade? Wouldn't it be worth dropping a Taurox or 2 for a manticore and more scions. To get all those extra CPs.
MSU to the extreme, but should be able to play at almost all ranges - close up with dudes and Hellhounds, ranged with Manticores and Taurox Missiles.
Not sure if the Manticores/Hellhounds are better or worse than a Superheavy like a Knight or Shadowsword, but it is a lot less "eggs in one basket". Worried about the SHV getting one-shot if the meta shifts that way, this way the power is spread out across the army.
Aren't you literally one troops and one Heavy away from a Brigade? Wouldn't it be worth dropping a Taurox or 2 for a manticore and more scions. To get all those extra CPs.
MSU to the extreme, but should be able to play at almost all ranges - close up with dudes and Hellhounds, ranged with Manticores and Taurox Missiles.
Not sure if the Manticores/Hellhounds are better or worse than a Superheavy like a Knight or Shadowsword, but it is a lot less "eggs in one basket". Worried about the SHV getting one-shot if the meta shifts that way, this way the power is spread out across the army.
Aren't you literally one troops and one Heavy away from a Brigade? Wouldn't it be worth dropping a Taurox or 2 for a manticore and more scions. To get all those extra CPs.
True, could split up the Hellhound into 3 squads and then go that route. Didn't even realize, that might be extra good. Though in this force any CPs would really only be used for rerolls - min units generally die before having to take Morale and I don't care about interrupting charges.
Still, 6 extra rerolls is nothing to sneeze at. Though I think wonder if another Manticore might be a bit redundant? Maybe Wyverns or a LRBT might be more all-arounder, multiple Wyverns is pretty meh if you're going against, say, MSU or hordes.
That's a pretty nasty list. I think we're going to see tons of Scions with Taurox Primes supported with a knight. It's just too mean. Blob up your Taurox Primes and protect them with conscripts. Then deep strike your Scions in whenever you need em.
Hilariously, there is almost no Militarum Tempestus stuff on eBay right now haha. Which is sad because I wanted a start collecting box so I can make a few more kit bashes to make melta Kasrkin.
Requizen wrote: I think one Knight lists is asking to be countered. You run across a Pylon or Shadowsword and that's over 500 points gone in a round of shooting.
As awesome as a Shadowsword is, it won't one-shot a Knight like everyone thinks it does. On average it will deal 10,5 wounds.
Though I'm sure you want to give it re-rolls of one to hit with Yarrick/Harker. Not to mention you'll throw a command point at it's number of hits roll.
With re-rolling the number of hits die using a command point and Yarrick/Harker, you get about 16 wounds on the titan on average.
And you can increase that by giving it Lascannon sponsons (who can benefit from his +1 to hit vs titanic).
However, this shows how much the Knight's Ion Shield helps him. A super-heavy without an invuln save (like the Stompa for instance) takes a bloody 16 wounds.
With Yarrick/Harker and re-rolling the hits roll, its 23.8 wounds!
So question about the Forge World Imperial Armour Index: Astra Militarum.
Thunderbolt. Can add up to 8 hellstrike missiles. (4? 8? I don't remember) These things aren't one shot?... You can fire 8 hellstrike missiles every turn?
Oversight? Busted as hell? Will you get your tires slashed if you try to play this?
ThePorcupine wrote: So question about the Forge World Imperial Armour Index: Astra Militarum.
Thunderbolt. Can add up to 8 hellstrike missiles. (4? 8? I don't remember) These things aren't one shot?... You can fire 8 hellstrike missiles every turn?
Oversight? Busted as hell? Will you get your tires slashed if you try to play this?
I think they cost 20 points a piece though? Good luck keeping that thing alive if you spend so much on its weaponry, also I'm seeing it as able to take only 4, am I missing something?
Nah you're not missing anything. Fully loaded the thunderbolt is 270 points I think. But I honestly think the firepower might be worth the investment. It sports multiple autocannons, lascannons, and hellstrikes.
8 shots of S7 AP-1 2D
2 shots of S9 AP-3 D6 4 shots of S8 AP-2 D6
That's honestly super-heavy levels of dakka. AND with 15 wounds, toughness 7, 3+ save, and hard to hit, this thing is survivable as hell. And, unlike most flyers, it has BS3+ to hit, so it'll be as accurate as anything else in the army hitting on 4+
Am I overestimating this? It seems amazing.
(edit) oh and lets not forget it tries to repair itself every turn
With the (apparent) consensus being that outside of Vendettas and the sub-par Vanquishers, there isn't too much in the way of long range anti tank (barring lascannons in infantry squads) has anyone considered allying in space marine predator annihilators?
Seems like it could fit a tank hunter role in most people's forces.
The best antitank imo is a Stormlord loaded up with HWTs. The main gun isn't amazing antitank (good but not like other variants), but you can get 4 Lascannon sponsons and then the dudes inside can shoot out.
But not great advice if you don't want to play with LoWs.
Naix wrote: With the (apparent) consensus being that outside of Vendettas and the sub-par Vanquishers, there isn't too much in the way of long range anti tank (barring lascannons in infantry squads) has anyone considered allying in space marine predator annihilators?
Seems like it could fit a tank hunter role in most people's forces.
Wait... people don't think there's good anti-tank? Am I wrong in thinking Twin Lascannon Tarantulas are amazing?
Recently took 170 conscripts to a very competitive event in the UK and was hitting the top tables.
Conscript spam is alive and well, although it only works in combination with motor spam and plenty of lascannons/ smite. Having 2-3 Eversors is indispensable in taking out opposing snipers.
Naix wrote: With the (apparent) consensus being that outside of Vendettas and the sub-par Vanquishers, there isn't too much in the way of long range anti tank (barring lascannons in infantry squads) has anyone considered allying in space marine predator annihilators?
Seems like it could fit a tank hunter role in most people's forces.
Wait... people don't think there's good anti-tank? Am I wrong in thinking Twin Lascannon Tarantulas are amazing?
Amazingly easy to kill. Earthshakers. Grab just the battery from FW. 80 points no crew needed
So, I just got 3x the Get started Tempestus kit as the start of my new guard army. What else should I be looking to add? What supports what I have? Conscripts?
I have scions with plasma for heavy stuff, and taurox's with mass str 4 shooting for mobs. I even have some commissars and tempestor primes. So maybe basilisks, or hellhounds?
So I've never played guard. Like, at all. But I do love your tanks. They're neat. Is it possible to build a viable tank and tracked vehicle army in 8th? If so, where would you suggest I start for a 500/1000 point army?
Hello fellow servants of the one true emperor. I have a ummm group of friends who wanted to barrow... use.... liberate??? some Astra Militarum equipment, and i was trying to figure out what is your best option for dealing with big tough model and super sonic flier.
Currently, i have a supreme command detachment and it contains
2 Primaris psykers
1 Tempestor prime
1 Millitarum Command squad w/ 4 plasma
and a chimera with 2 heavy flamers.
was wondering if anyone had any ideas for a force within 300pts that is all contained within one detachment that can deal with big heavy stuff and super sonic fliers.
Since 8E dropped I've been playing my guard. Spearhead with lots of artillery and russes. My problem was that I didn't have enough mech to get to 2k so I back filled with a shodowsword in one game and two knights in another game. In both cases I went second and my 500 points of LOW was dead turn 1 or 2. Someone else in my club is running the list I'm trying to build up to more or less (he has all vehicles except for 2 units of infantry where as I want to run a detachment of scion plasma command squads with primes).
I'd like to start looking at running foot lists too but don't have experience building those types of lists (what things do you sprinkle in to make them work). Anyone have a 8E foot list they'd like to share?
I'm looking for help with something. See, I've been playing infantry-guard recently and while it's been both fun and effective, moving so many models can be rather a pain at times.
Anyway, I'd like to still play infantry-IG, but with a focus on more 'elite' units (probably Scions).
I'm thinking of going MSU and having lots of 5-man Scion squads with Plasma Guns and Plasma Pistols (perhaps with an occasional Flamer or Volley Gun to break up the monotony a little). I'll also have a few Plasma Command Squads (since I'll be including a few Tempestor Primes to hand out orders).
Anyway, this gives me quite a lot of short-mid range shooting as well as a few squads that can drop near backfield targets. However, I'm currently really lacking in long-range weapons.
Do you think that I need long-range weapons, or should I just advance into plasma range ASAP and rely on my deep-striking MT Command Squads for pseudo-long-rang?
If you think I need long-range weapons, what do you think would work best?
- Veteran squads with HWTs?
- ISs with HWTs?
- HWSs?
- Sentinels with Lascannons and Hunter Killer missiles?
- Leman Russ of some variety?
Unfortunately, I don't have any artillery at the moment. The only vehicles I own are:
- 2 Leman Russ
- 5 Chimera
- 4 Sentinels
So, anyway, what do you thin?
Also, any other advice for running this sort of army?
Requizen wrote: Why would you ever take a Punisher when Taurox Primes and Wyverns exist?
Fixed it for you
Gatlings are nice but mass Heavy Bolter HWTs blow pretty much everything out of the water in terms of point effectiveness. Not a terribly mobile or exciting army, mind you, but for pure number and quality of shots you can do, they're the bomb dot com.
Anyway, this gives me quite a lot of short-mid range shooting as well as a few squads that can drop near backfield targets. However, I'm currently really lacking in long-range weapons.
Do you think that I need long-range weapons, or should I just advance into plasma range ASAP and rely on my deep-striking MT Command Squads for pseudo-long-rang?
If you think I need long-range weapons, what do you think would work best?
Depends what you want them to do. For killing big stuff, Manticore batteries are great. They're the FW version of the IG tank and they become an 80 point artillery piece (plus how much it costs for the missiles themselves, but it's really not much)
For killing medium to big stuff but firing all game, the same goes for Earthshaker batteries. They're the artillery version of the basilisk (literally just the top half of the tank ).
For killing smaller stuff you can use:
Taurox Primes (great for bringing your squads up too - I think they're so great that I use them and I don't even have guys for them to transport!)
Wyverns
HWTs Quad Heavy Mortar Batteries (kind of like a Wyvern but str 5 on the gun and no shred. A FW artillery piece)
Requizen wrote: Why would you ever take a Punisher when Taurox Primes and Wyverns exist?
Fixed it for you
Gatlings are nice but mass Heavy Bolter HWTs blow pretty much everything out of the water in terms of point effectiveness. Not a terribly mobile or exciting army, mind you, but for pure number and quality of shots you can do, they're the bomb dot com.
Perhaps but you lack durability and you can only get 3 per squad, right? That's 9 shots per FOC slot. The prime gives me 31 if I do the heavy stubber. So if I take 3 Taurox primes, I'm taking 31 HWT models to equal it. To be fair to the HWTs, they're str 5 and rend -1, but they're also 72 points more than the Prime and have a worse WS. If the Taurox can stand still, they wound an identical amount vs t4, which should be the place where the HWTs shine. While the HWT wounds are at rend -1 (the prime does have 8 shots at rend -2) I don't think that's worth an extra 72 points. Moreover, you're giving up 3x as many kill points, and its very easy to kill HWTs, especially since you're probably not going first with that many units (even under the ITC rules). The Taurox primes are harder to kill and keep shooting as they die. Dead HWTs fire no bullets.
It's actually unfair to the rest of the army how good a Taurox Prime is as a gunboat vs small stuff
Hellhound, heavy bolter
Hellhound, heavy bolter
Hellhound, heavy bolter
2x Basilisk, heavy bolter
Heavy weapon squad, 3x Lascannon
Heavy weapon squad, 3x Lascannon
Heavy weapon squad, 3x Lascannon
Hydra
Stormlord (2x sponson HB/LC)
His list was a bunch of GKSS, the guy with the banner, a rifleman dread, a single terminator squad, a single dreadknight, and an inquisitor with acolytes in razorbacks for backfield objective control.
HWS went into the stormlord, which parked on one of four objectives. All my other vehicles went behind/around it, with the hellhounds around the outer edges of the board. Infantry squads lined the deployment zone's edge to push his deep striking out as far as I could. He deep struck half of his SS with the banner guy and his grandmaster, and the infantry soaked the shooting and smite wounds. He failed to get any charges except for the banner guy, and I overwatched unseasonably well, taking out 2 strikes.
He got the infantry squads down to only about 2-4 people each, but then I returned fire with everything. Deep struck the scions, and the melta guys bagged the rifleman, while the plasma guys wiped out one of the SS. Hellhounds put some wounds on a few things, but nothing amazing because I can't roll above a 2 on their number of attacks. Vulcan mega bolter vaporizes the terminators, and enough people ganged up on the banner guy that he went away as well. Got the strikes back far enough that I could put some hurt on the grandmaster, and the lascannons took care of him.
Next turn he deep struck the other three SS in. I weather the storm from that pretty well, getting a few wounds on my vehicles and losing the infantry down to a sarge in one squad, and the sarge and a plasma guy in the other squad. He also takes out 4 of the 5 scions of one of those squads. I return fire, taking out most of the strikes again. I'm also hurting razorbacks at this point, for lack of other targets. I think he got the inquisitor out to smite with too.
(It's worth mentioning here that he's held his DK back because he's unhappy with the situation for his charge, and has been hoping to cause more of a dent so he can deep strike it in deeper. Though he's got the infantry removed, he's still not really closer to me, and he has no infantry to do much with.)
Finally he brings the DK in. Between it and the inquisitor, he takes out a hellhound and basically kills the remaining scions. He's moved up razorbacks and they and the acolytes put some wounds on another hellhound and my remaining characters. I think I was down to the company commander and the tempestor prime left as far as non-vehicle units go. Vehicles he hadn't been able to put much of a dent into.
The tempestor sees the writing on the wall and starts running the opposite direction. He's the warlord too, so he really doesn't want his head popped. By now it's bottom of turn 4, and he's spending most of his time trying to deny me line of sight with the 75% of my army still remaining. The basilisks don't care, and they manage to remove the last few razorbacks and acolyte squads over the next two turns, with the stormlord getting a lucky snipe on the inquisitor for want of his leg being exposed from behind the cover he was trying to take.
I table him by the end of turn 5, and I apologize for how one-sided that was, and comment about how we've only ever had maybe some 3-4 games it seems that have been genuinely evenly matched and don't just swing hard immediately one way or the other right out of the gate. He agrees and spends the next hour or so talking about how awesome Infinity is to me. I'm uncertain still at this point, but willing to consider giving it a shot.
Takeaways:
- Melta is better than I thought it would be, and despite netlisting, still has a purpose in 8th, though it's hardly the king of the table anymore that it once was.
- It's an old mantra, but if you're deep striking, deep strike everything at once.
- Also an old mantra, but "one is none, two is one, three is spam." He only had one DK and one dreadnought. I feel like if he'd brought more of that, rather than relying on melee for antitank, he'd have been better off.
- It's a deadlier edition, but that doesn't mean that you don't have to focus fire. I made sure I had a backup plan for everything I was shooting at, and I stuck to it as much as possible. That's kinda the power of guard I think.
- Basilisks are still amazing. Maybe we play with more LOS blocking terrain, but I was really satisfied with how well they didn't care about the hidden acolytes. As much as I hate to say it, I'm interested in trying out some manticores.
- I'm honestly still not any more or less sold on Scions than I was beforehand. They're not that much different than 5th ed stormtroopers at this point, and I continue to use them as such. I'm making more though, because they are cheap and fun to paint.
- Stormlord as a HWS bunker might be a little unfair.
Additional thought: The discrepancy between points and power is real. I ran the numbers on my last game against Eldar, and at 75 power, I was about 1400 points. My opponent was just over 1500, iirc. That's the difference of another hellhound. And I did the thing where I stuck upgrades on things I wouldn't have taken either, and took those into account with my point calculation. I feel like power is off, at least for guard. I take hull heavy bolters on stuff, and didn't take pintle mounts or hunterr killers, so maybe I was losing a power or two per tank there.
vipoid wrote: Well, among those things you listed, I see one that I actually have models for.
If you don't have the FW stuff, most of it is just the upper half of the GW model. Not too hard to get a hold of, or hopefully people magnetized them when they assembled the tank
If you're trying to fill out a Brigade 6 x 10 man Infantry squads are the cheaper way to go. You'd end up with less guys. (60 rather than 120) and In points 6 x 40 rather than 6 x 50 (important if youre trying to fill out the brigade while keeping pts down) but as you said separate squads with separate lines would allow counter attacks. With the new consolidate rules I'd be afraid that a large blob would allow the enemy to consolidate into a near by unit.
I get that with Straken, a priest and a commisar your would give your conscritps plus two attacks and an effective leadership of 8 but I feel the WS of 4+ and BS of 4+ of the infantry would mean they'd do more damage.
Also I don't feel like buying and painting 120 models...
Does anyone have any experience laying out AM gunlines so as to prevent the enemy from consolidating into the next line following the fight phase. Will a 4" gap between each straight line of infantry guarantee the line behind will get to shoot (and then charge) the next turn?
Thanks for the feedback. At this point I've settled on 2x30 cons and 4 infantry squads with various loadouts. I feel like it's a good compromise - an hundred guys to bubble wrap tanks, but more accurate and more special/hvy weapons than all conscripts
vipoid wrote: As a question, guys, what would you suggest for a Catachan-themed army?
Are there any weapons/units that would help cement that theme?
Likewise, are there any weapons/units I should avoid for them?
Go watch rambo and what he does
then do that x40 for the rest of the army
but really they have access to most things. mostly dudes. often pictured with sentinels.
Themey on a jungle table would be flamers. hellhounds probably and maybe basillisks clearing landing zones. just do vietnam stuff and you probably cant go wrong.
If you care about fluff, I'd bring a couple special weapons squads so you can throw some demo charges. I had the Catachan supplement from way back in 3rd edition and I'm pretty sure that's where demo charges and man portable heavy flamers entered the game.
Other than that, just more flame throwers, mortars, artillery, sentinels, and probably a Valkyrie. I could see a place for Tauroxes in their Army as well. Hell, toss in some Ratlings and Ogryns as they seem fitting. Probably take it easy on Commissars, Catachans aren't very fond of them, haha.
vipoid wrote: As a question, guys, what would you suggest for a Catachan-themed army?
Are there any weapons/units that would help cement that theme?
Likewise, are there any weapons/units I should avoid for them?
Lots of Catachan infantry models with some ghillie suits
Shotguns
Knifes
Sergeant Harker
HWT's with heavy flora
Catchans will have fewer vehicles than most regiments, simply because of the environments they are specialized in. Its not easy to navigate vehicles through dense heavy jungle. Which is why they bring Rambo instead.
Im running 6 searchlights combined with 5 veteran units congalined to Harker for rerolling 1's. As well as a few units of scions with 4x plasma. The firepower is just amazing when you hit on 2's rerolling 1's and usually wounding on 2's rerolling 1's with orders.
Is there anything with the Imperium keyword that gives +1 to hit other than the Salamander Command Vehicle and the Searchlights?
Following that, would Ratlings/Snipers with a +1 to hit do mortal wounds on a 5 or 6? Similar to how weapons with Gets Hot shooting at fliers explode on 1's and 2's?
Is there anything with the Imperium keyword that gives +1 to hit other than the Salamander Command Vehicle and the Searchlights?
Following that, would Ratlings/Snipers with a +1 to hit do mortal wounds on a 5 or 6? Similar to how weapons with Gets Hot shooting at fliers explode on 1's and 2's?
6+ on to wound not to hit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ross-128 wrote: One amusing thing is Elysians didn't get hit quite as hard by the command squad cap as Scions did, because they can unlock a command squad with a 30-point platoon commander (though that PC does take up an elite slot, which is likely to be a rather scarce resource if you're running drop squads).
In terms of cost breakdown for two full squads:
Elysian command squads: 60 points for 2 PCs, 56 points for 8 Elysian veterans, 56 points for 8 plasma guns, 172 points total.
Elysian SWS: 40 points for CC, 60 points for 12 Elysian infantry, 42 points for 6 plasma guns, 142 points (downside is, the SWS is BS4+)
Without the rerolls factored in
Command squad 16.9 points per double tap hit
SWS with company commander 23 points per double tap plasma hit
vipoid wrote: As a question, guys, what would you suggest for a Catachan-themed army?
Are there any weapons/units that would help cement that theme?
Likewise, are there any weapons/units I should avoid for them?
If you can get your hands on some autorifle looking guns instead of the lasgun, maybe something from Victoria, you'll have a unique look to the basic troopers
Page 10 – Astra Militarum Army List
Add the following rule:
‘Matched Play – Command Squads If you are playing a matched play game, a Battle-forged army can include a maximum of one <Regiment> Command Squad (pg 15) in a Detachment for each <Regiment> Officer in that Detachment. Similarly, if you are playing a matched play game, a Battleforged army can include a maximum of one Militarum Tempestus Command Squad (pg 51) in a Detachment for each Tempestor Prime (pg 50) in that Detachment.
So, no more spamming MT Command Squads unless you also plan to spam Tempestor Primes along with them.
In order for the MT Command Squad to get FRFSRF they would need to be given the order by a Tempestor Prime (who you'd probably deep strike in with them anyway) rather than a Company Commander due to the <Regiment> rule
To get the most bang from your buck it becomes a three part unit
1) Tempestor Prime with command rod (and two orders)
2) MT Command Squad with 4 Plasma guns
3) Scion squad of 5, 2 with plasma (Or squad of 10, 4 with Plasma guns)
24 (or 32) plasma gun shots hitting on 3+ for 166 points (or 228)
To be honest I'd go for the scion squad of 5 and save the points for another one of these (match play legal) 3 part units.
In order for the MT Command Squad to get FRFSRF they would need to be given the order by a Tempestor Prime (who you'd probably deep strike in with them anyway) rather than a Company Commander due to the <Regiment> rule
I don't understand how that relates to anything I wrote. Why would you even need FRFSRF with a command squad? Surely they'd all have special weapons anyway.
To get the most bang from your buck it becomes a three part unit
1) Tempestor Prime with command rod (and two orders)
2) MT Command Squad with 4 Plasma guns
3) Scion squad of 5, 2 with plasma (Or squad of 10, 4 with Plasma guns)
24 (or 32) plasma gun shots hitting on 3+ for 166 points (or 228)
To be honest I'd go for the scion squad of 5 and save the points for another one of these (match play legal) 3 part units.
I'd probably take a plasma pistol on the Scion sergeant.
Regardless, do you think the Prime is worth it? If you drop him and just have 2 Scion squads, then you lose some plasma shots but gain enough points for a HWS with Heavy Bolters.
daedalus wrote: Assuming a case where you supercharge plasma, which do you guys like better for orders for scions, FRFSRF or Take Aim?
Might depend a bit on what you're shooting at, though I'd say Take Aim would definitely be the default choice (especially against an enemy tough enough to require overcharged plasma).
CaptainO wrote: In order for the MT Command Squad to get FRFSRF they would need to be given the order by a Tempestor Prime (who you'd probably deep strike in with them anyway) rather than a Company Commander due to the <Regiment> rule
To get the most bang from your buck it becomes a three part unit
1) Tempestor Prime with command rod (and two orders)
2) MT Command Squad with 4 Plasma guns
3) Scion squad of 5, 2 with plasma (Or squad of 10, 4 with Plasma guns)
24 (or 32) plasma gun shots hitting on 3+ for 166 points (or 228)
To be honest I'd go for the scion squad of 5 and save the points for another one of these (match play legal) 3 part units.
Spamming Command squads seems less fluffy than I'd like, but I wouldn't deny anyone the option. I'll probably run Primes with pairs of 5-man units w/ 2 plasma guns and a plasma pistol each, maybe taking some up to 10 in bigger games to give them staying power. My hope is to run six of them (maybe not all with Primes) at 2000 points to deliver the Troops requirement for a Brigade. The remaining battlefield roles will be filled out with Adepta Sororitas: melta Dominions in Immolators, hand flamer Seraphim, heavy bolter Retributers, heavy flamer Retributers in Rhinos, and Exorcists, with Celestine and a Canoness rounding out the HQ and Imagifiers providing Elites. I should be able to reach my opponent with melta, plasma, heavy bolter, and missile fire on Turn 1, followed by massed bolter and flamer output on Turn 2, all with lots of re-rolls from aura buffs and extra phases from Acts of Faith.
A guy earlier said a couple Eversors are essential for taking out enemy snipers.
So these things are placed more than 9 inches from an enemy model, but can't move when they come in, right? So they would shoot, and then attempt to charge in the assault phase? Is 3d6 reliable enough to hit someone 10 inches away? How likely are enemy snipers to be out in the open by themselves and not behind a screen of their own troops? You're spending 140 points banking on your opponent taking a bunch of out-on-the-field snipers. Do eversors make their points back easily even if they're not sniper-hunting?
Some rule clarification questions:
I keep hearing people saying that pistols give you +1 attack in combat. I don't see that. Do they mean you can fire the pistol even while in close combat so it's effectively "another attack?" You still have to shoot it in the shooting phase, right? And your "attack" stat in your stat block isn't changed, right?
Melta bombs seem really short ranged. From what I understand grenades act like any other ranged weapon but are limited to 1 per unit per turn. You can't throw them mid-charge and you can't throw them in melee, correct? Then how often do they even come into play? At 4 inches, I don't see an Eversor being able to throw one before charging considering he must start >9 inches away. And once in combat, I assume it's a suicide mission, people pile in, and eventually he dies and explodes.
Might depend a bit on what you're shooting at, though I'd say Take Aim would definitely be the default choice (especially against an enemy tough enough to require overcharged plasma).
Yeah, I think I agree with you there. It's probably the better way to go for anything that's not a suicide squad. FRFSRF MIGHT still be good against terminators while supercharging is a good idea, but that's about the only situation I can think of.
So I'm constructing a proper Ordo Xenos army, meaning an Inquisitor & retinue with a Deathwatch Kill Team and the meat of the force consisting of Storm Troopers(nope, no Latinicus Sillycus names, ain't happenin' GW) in Chimeras(the FW triple-HB version - and yes, I know they're "not optimal").
What I'm sticking on is how to arm my line Trooper squads. They'll be full size so I can take four special weapons(and yes, I know that's also "not optimal" but I won't be spamming command squads or MSU suicide units), and the consensus generally seems to be that plasma is king so far in 8th, but should I really be cramming four plasmaguns into every basic infantry unit in my army? I was considering going 2/2 plasma/melta which should in theory in combination with the HB output of the unit's Chimera let them handle any target.
Yodhrin wrote: So I'm constructing a proper Ordo Xenos army, meaning an Inquisitor & retinue with a Deathwatch Kill Team and the meat of the force consisting of Storm Troopers(nope, no Latinicus Sillycus names, ain't happenin' GW) in Chimeras(the FW triple-HB version - and yes, I know they're "not optimal").
What I'm sticking on is how to arm my line Trooper squads. They'll be full size so I can take four special weapons(and yes, I know that's also "not optimal" but I won't be spamming command squads or MSU suicide units), and the consensus generally seems to be that plasma is king so far in 8th, but should I really be cramming four plasmaguns into every basic infantry unit in my army? I was considering going 2/2 plasma/melta which should in theory in combination with the HB output of the unit's Chimera let them handle any target.
An anti xeno fighting force? Probably flamers are standard inquisitor style. but the question is what is your list missing and do you have enough of x y z to deal with a b c.
But generally plasma is good middle ground. enough shots to deal with general troops all the way up to desperation overcharge to knock a few wounds off tanks and MC.
Yodhrin wrote: So I'm constructing a proper Ordo Xenos army, meaning an Inquisitor & retinue with a Deathwatch Kill Team and the meat of the force consisting of Storm Troopers(nope, no Latinicus Sillycus names, ain't happenin' GW) in Chimeras(the FW triple-HB version - and yes, I know they're "not optimal").
What I'm sticking on is how to arm my line Trooper squads. They'll be full size so I can take four special weapons(and yes, I know that's also "not optimal" but I won't be spamming command squads or MSU suicide units), and the consensus generally seems to be that plasma is king so far in 8th, but should I really be cramming four plasmaguns into every basic infantry unit in my army? I was considering going 2/2 plasma/melta which should in theory in combination with the HB output of the unit's Chimera let them handle any target.
You might split your squads into all Plasma, all Melta, so each has a specific mission...
Yodhrin wrote: So I'm constructing a proper Ordo Xenos army, meaning an Inquisitor & retinue with a Deathwatch Kill Team and the meat of the force consisting of Storm Troopers(nope, no Latinicus Sillycus names, ain't happenin' GW) in Chimeras(the FW triple-HB version - and yes, I know they're "not optimal").
What I'm sticking on is how to arm my line Trooper squads. They'll be full size so I can take four special weapons(and yes, I know that's also "not optimal" but I won't be spamming command squads or MSU suicide units), and the consensus generally seems to be that plasma is king so far in 8th, but should I really be cramming four plasmaguns into every basic infantry unit in my army? I was considering going 2/2 plasma/melta which should in theory in combination with the HB output of the unit's Chimera let them handle any target.
I'd probably go 2/1/1 Plasma/Melta/Flamer.
Plasma are cheap, all-purpose weapons. Meltas are good against heavier targets. Flamers give you crowd-control (and are very flavourful).
For 1 point more than Ratlings, you get +1 toughness, the same save in cover and, most importantly, the ability to recieve orders!
They can also benefit from Sgt. Harker by making the Catachans.
Reroll 1's to hit AND giving them re-roll 1's to wound (can become great if the re-roll is a 6 for that sweet extra mortal wound).
It's expensive and might be difficult with only 1 command squad per commander, but I think it can have potential!
Yodhrin wrote: So I'm constructing a proper Ordo Xenos army, meaning an Inquisitor & retinue with a Deathwatch Kill Team and the meat of the force consisting of Storm Troopers(nope, no Latinicus Sillycus names, ain't happenin' GW) in Chimeras(the FW triple-HB version - and yes, I know they're "not optimal").
What I'm sticking on is how to arm my line Trooper squads. They'll be full size so I can take four special weapons(and yes, I know that's also "not optimal" but I won't be spamming command squads or MSU suicide units), and the consensus generally seems to be that plasma is king so far in 8th, but should I really be cramming four plasmaguns into every basic infantry unit in my army? I was considering going 2/2 plasma/melta which should in theory in combination with the HB output of the unit's Chimera let them handle any target.
I'd like to echo this question. As I mentioned above, I'm building six Scions units for my Brigade Troops requirement, and I've got one unit that still up in the air in terms of equipment. Constrained by my collection, they are as follows:
What does the last unit need to round out an all-comers list? I currently have one grenade launcher and one flamer (the Kasrkin models). I could easily build one more of either from my bitz box (or both, to have all options available). With four plasma squads and a melta squad, should the sixth squad run grenade launchers, flamers, or one of each? They'll be backed by Battle Sisters, so flamers and meltas are well covered and I'm leaning toward grenade launchers for that reason, but I also like the idea of plasma cracking a transport and flamers hosing down the survivors.
I can't invent a reason to ever take grenade launchers. I'm sad to say it, but plasma is too good for not enough price difference.
The problem with flamers is that you can't use them after deep striking. If you give them a ride, a flamer squad could be fun, but you can do that more cheaply (and effectively) with a SWS or a Command Squad or even a Vet squad.
I think I like meltas more than most people around here. I'd say more melta. Sadly, it and plasma are the only two options that really make sense for Scions.
For 1 point more than Ratlings, you get +1 toughness, the same save in cover and, most importantly, the ability to recieve orders!
They can also benefit from Sgt. Harker by making the Catachans.
Reroll 1's to hit AND giving them re-roll 1's to wound (can become great if the re-roll is a 6 for that sweet extra mortal wound).
It's expensive and might be difficult with only 1 command squad per commander, but I think it can have potential!
I ran this last night, CCS snipers that were catachan, had sarn't Harker nearby for the first half of the game (re roll of 1s in shooting phase) and I would order bring it down on them every turn for the re rolls of 1 to wound. they survived the whole game against blood angels and they put 4 mortal wounds on Dante throughout the course of the game. This was just one game though, but that thinking is pretty solid tactic regardless, and better than the hobbit snipers.
Well, I could swap out some of the plasmaguns for grenade launchers and hot shot volley guns for a bit more variety. I'd actually like to have some meltas, but finding the points for them is a pain.
If you have any advice or suggestions, I'm happy to hear them.
I presume you're not deep striking every Scion squad? You have a few too many for that. Maybe drop the couple that you're not DSing (assuming you don't have another purpose for them) and pick up another HWS (and your meltas) or something like that?
The only weak point I see here is that you don't really leave enough stuff on the table to soak damage from first turn shooting. Those sentinels won't last long on their own, and the chimeras are going to get the antitank pretty quickly.
daedalus wrote: I presume you're not deep striking every Scion squad? You have a few too many for that.
If/when I run six Scions and three Primes, I'll probably DS them all. That's nine deployments before I put anything on the table. There's no going first at that point, but you should get a good look at your enemy's armor and heavy infantry to inform your own deployment. On turn 1, DS everything you have. Maybe you get rapid fire range on a scary enemy unit, but even if you have to DS into your own deployment zones, you'll be set up opposite an ideal target. Alternatively, hold something until late to snag an objective. But I probably won't be putting then on the table during deployment.
If/when I run six Scions and three Primes, I'll probably DS them all. That's nine deployments before I put anything on the table. There's no going first at that point, but you should get a good look at your enemy's armor and heavy infantry to inform your own deployment. On turn 1, DS everything you have. Maybe you get rapid fire range on a scary enemy unit, but even if you have to DS into your own deployment zones, you'll be set up opposite an ideal target. Alternatively, hold something until late to snag an objective. But I probably won't be putting then on the table during deployment.
Yeah, that's my preferred way of doing it. You can only deep strike half your deployments though. He's got a few too many squads to do all of them.
daedalus wrote: I presume you're not deep striking every Scion squad? You have a few too many for that.
Well, 4 can start in the Chimeras plus 2 of the Primes, which I think would give me enough on the field to start the remainder in reserve. However, I was actually only planning to DS the 3 Command Squads and one of the Primes - the rest can footslog.
daedalus wrote: Maybe drop the couple that you're not DSing (assuming you don't have another purpose for them) and pick up another HWS (and your meltas) or something like that?
Well, as I said, I was actually planning to start some of them on the field. Still, I'll play around with my list and see if I want to replace any of them as you suggest.
Out of interest, do you think it would be worth trying to find the points for one or both of Celestine's guards?
daedalus wrote: The only weak point I see here is that you don't really leave enough stuff on the table to soak damage from first turn shooting. Those sentinels won't last long on their own, and the chimeras are going to get the antitank pretty quickly.
Yeah, that is a real concern.
Honestly, the reason I'm playing this list is that I like play Infantry-IG, but moving that many models is a pain. Hence, I thought I'd have a go at fielding a more elite army (and with their promotion to troops, Scions seemed like the obvious choice). I also wanted to use St. Celestine.
Do you think there would be a better way of playing an elite IG army (which still focuses on infantry over mech), but which would be able to survive the first turn of enemy shooting?
daedalus wrote: I presume you're not deep striking every Scion squad? You have a few too many for that.
Well, 4 can start in the Chimeras plus 2 of the Primes, which I think would give me enough on the field to start the remainder in reserve. However, I was actually only planning to DS the 3 Command Squads and one of the Primes - the rest can footslog.
daedalus wrote: Maybe drop the couple that you're not DSing (assuming you don't have another purpose for them) and pick up another HWS (and your meltas) or something like that?
Well, as I said, I was actually planning to start some of them on the field. Still, I'll play around with my list and see if I want to replace any of them as you suggest.
Out of interest, do you think it would be worth trying to find the points for one or both of Celestine's guards?
daedalus wrote: The only weak point I see here is that you don't really leave enough stuff on the table to soak damage from first turn shooting. Those sentinels won't last long on their own, and the chimeras are going to get the antitank pretty quickly.
Yeah, that is a real concern.
Honestly, the reason I'm playing this list is that I like play Infantry-IG, but moving that many models is a pain. Hence, I thought I'd have a go at fielding a more elite army (and with their promotion to troops, Scions seemed like the obvious choice). I also wanted to use St. Celestine.
Do you think there would be a better way of playing an elite IG army (which still focuses on infantry over mech), but which would be able to survive the first turn of enemy shooting?
If your not gonna deep strike any scions a command squad does the same thing but cheaper. Even more so if they are in a vehicle.
I haven't looked at Celestine's guards yet, so I can't really comment there. They would help you get a bit more out of the acts of faith though.
You could help survivability (for one squad anyway) by picking up an Astropath and casting that power that improves saving throw by 1. It's less effective on MSU, but it might help a squad weather the storm if it got too close to something nasty.
vipoid wrote: Out of interest, do you think it would be worth trying to find the points for one or both of Celestine's guards?
The difference between zero and one is way bigger than the difference between one and two, in my limited experience. Finding an extra 50 points unlocks a big part of what makes Celestine awesome, the ability to shift wounds to someone who can die and resurrect without actually risking Celestine's Miraculous Intervention roll... although it is an easy one to make, especially if you save a CP.
I'd go by game size: by herself at 1000, with one buddy at 1500, and with both at 2000. After a few games, you may slide the scale up or down depending on how awesome you find her to be (or how irritating your opponents find her to be, and how much you care about how they feel).
You really shouldn't take Celestine without both her bodyguards. Once you start taking wounds on her you need to continue to allocate wounds on her for subsequent failed saves, regardless of whether you revived the gemini.
Basically, you want to create a situation where you're constantly maintaining your two-two wound friends and stave off taking wounds on Celestine for as long as possible.
To that end, you should take another SoB unit with Celestine in order to make use of her Saintly Blessing ability and confuse target priority.
I've not run celestine yet, but I think that either 0 or 1 bodyguards is probably best. For 150pts she has a high damage output and is already hard to kill. If she's in the centre of an AM horde she should be hard to target, then can move 24 inches and assault in one turn! Then even if she does die, 35/36 of the time she should come straight back (with a CP). In all honesty I'd probably keep her cheap and just get another 100pts of other AM.
The difference between zero and one is way bigger than the difference between one and two, in my limited experience. Finding an extra 50 points unlocks a big part of what makes Celestine awesome, the ability to shift wounds to someone who can die and resurrect without actually risking Celestine's Miraculous Intervention roll... although it is an easy one to make, especially if you save a CP.
I'd go by game size: by herself at 1000, with one buddy at 1500, and with both at 2000. After a few games, you may slide the scale up or down depending on how awesome you find her to be (or how irritating your opponents find her to be, and how much you care about how they feel).
DoomMouse wrote: I've not run celestine yet, but I think that either 0 or 1 bodyguards is probably best. For 150pts she has a high damage output and is already hard to kill. If she's in the centre of an AM horde she should be hard to target, then can move 24 inches and assault in one turn! Then even if she does die, 35/36 of the time she should come straight back (with a CP). In all honesty I'd probably keep her cheap and just get another 100pts of other AM.
Does it matter that I tend to use Celestine defensively (for her aura and as a counter-charge unit)? So, for the first few turns at least, she's generally not exposed to any enemy fire. I ask just because spending 1/6 of my points on her and her guard makes me uncomfortable. It's basically the opposite of the strategy I usually employ with IG - wherein my army has no core units (or if it does, they're expendable in the grand scheme of things).
However, I've only played a few games with her so far (1 with her bodyguard, two without), so I'm open hearing advice from more experienced players with her.
Captain Joystick wrote: To that end, you should take another SoB unit with Celestine in order to make use of her Saintly Blessing ability and confuse target priority.
Is there a particular unit you'd recommend?
EDIT:
DoomMouse wrote: I've not run celestine yet, but I think that either 0 or 1 bodyguards is probably best. For 150pts she has a high damage output and is already hard to kill. If she's in the centre of an AM horde she should be hard to target, then can move 24 inches and assault in one turn! Then even if she does die, 35/36 of the time she should come straight back (with a CP). In all honesty I'd probably keep her cheap and just get another 100pts of other AM.
Yeah, that's what I'd been leaning towards so far. I know she's good, but 250pts is still an awful lot - especially when her bodyguards add very little in the way of actual damage.
DoomMouse wrote: I've not run celestine yet, but I think that either 0 or 1 bodyguards is probably best. For 150pts she has a high damage output and is already hard to kill. If she's in the centre of an AM horde she should be hard to target, then can move 24 inches and assault in one turn! Then even if she does die, 35/36 of the time she should come straight back (with a CP). In all honesty I'd probably keep her cheap and just get another 100pts of other AM.
I run Celestine with both her Geminae. If she's alone, she absolutely needs the protection because otherwise she won't last through the second turn. Also, you'd be wasting the Healing Tears ability, and each Gemini is pretty decent in their own right.
As far as bringing her as a single unit for the Guard goes, I suspect she'd just end up dead fast. The Guard can't keep up with her. Even with an escorting unit of Seraphim, she won't last long if she's out alone on the enemy table half, and 150/250/400 is an expensive price to pay for a distraction unit.
Captain Joystick wrote: To that end, you should take another SoB unit with Celestine in order to make use of her Saintly Blessing ability and confuse target priority.
Is there a particular unit you'd recommend?
Seraphim. I run 10. I'm debating between inferno pistol or hand flamer right now, because GW reduced hand flamers ability.
I agree that seraphim are probably the best choice to join her. Being able to fire pistols into their combat can help them pull their weight a bit, but you'll need some practice to figure out which units you'll want to charge with them first or Celestine first.
I think the concearn regarding the hand flamers is a bit of nerf-shock. Them reducing it to D3 shots instead of D6 is a pretty big blow, but you're still putting out two of them per seraphim. At 12 points for the hand flamers vs 24 for the inferno pistols the latter feels like an equally viable (but differently optimized) choice now.
Shame they don't actually sell seraphim with inferno pistols.
What are people's thoughts on Rough Riders? At first I wasn't too interested, their flanking ability means they can't move when they arrive. But then I started thinking about using them as just a straight up melee unit.
Their speed and hunting lances seems like they could fulfill the niche at a discount to ogryns, since you don't need a transport. Their flanking seems unlikely to be useful, since you won't be able to move, and you only have a 25% chance to get a charge off. But could potentially snack an objective or ambush an enemy's artillery.
5 of them is only 50 points. Or you can throw two plasma guns on them for 64.
I think I might convert up a few and give them a try.
I run Celestine with both her Geminae. If she's alone, she absolutely needs the protection because otherwise she won't last through the second turn. Also, you'd be wasting the Healing Tears ability, and each Gemini is pretty decent in their own right.
Well, in the games I used her without her guard, she lasted to the second turn both times. The only time I've lost her was when I took her with both of her guard.
As far as bringing her as a single unit for the Guard goes, I suspect she'd just end up dead fast. The Guard can't keep up with her. Even with an escorting unit of Seraphim, she won't last long if she's out alone on the enemy table half, and 150/250/400 is an expensive price to pay for a distraction unit.
As I said though, I don't use her like that. At least early on, she stays behind my lines to provide her aura and to be a counter-charge unit.
argonak wrote: What are people's thoughts on Rough Riders? At first I wasn't too interested, their flanking ability means they can't move when they arrive. But then I started thinking about using them as just a straight up melee unit.
Their speed and hunting lances seems like they could fulfill the niche at a discount to ogryns, since you don't need a transport. Their flanking seems unlikely to be useful, since you won't be able to move, and you only have a 25% chance to get a charge off. But could potentially snack an objective or ambush an enemy's artillery.
5 of them is only 50 points. Or you can throw two plasma guns on them for 64.
I think I might convert up a few and give them a try.
I think that rough riders may finally be usable in this edition. I'm with you on the flanking, not sure how well that is going to work for them but at 50 points a squad of 5 without any extra equipment that hide behind your lines will return their points cost handily against armies that charge in against your line. With all of the additional ways to get close to your opponent in 8th having a unit that can reliably reach most parts of your line and charge in to lay down some serious hurt for 50 points seems worth it to me.
argonak wrote: What are people's thoughts on Rough Riders? At first I wasn't too interested, their flanking ability means they can't move when they arrive. But then I started thinking about using them as just a straight up melee unit.
Their speed and hunting lances seems like they could fulfill the niche at a discount to ogryns, since you don't need a transport. Their flanking seems unlikely to be useful, since you won't be able to move, and you only have a 25% chance to get a charge off. But could potentially snack an objective or ambush an enemy's artillery.
5 of them is only 50 points. Or you can throw two plasma guns on them for 64.
I think I might convert up a few and give them a try.
They are great, I would use them to bully weak backfield units via outflank and a command re-roll to try and make the 9" charge, or as a counter charge unit that hides out of LoS behind my own lines. They don't do well vs real melee units, so treat them as what they are, light cavalry. If you want a straight up shock assault cavalry unit run them as Death Riders from the DKoK list and charge right down the middle with some armored vehicles.
edit: I just saw you didn't think outflank was useful but Rough Riders are one of the only units in the Codex that can do this (Scions being the other via deepstrike). Don't underestimate guaranteed line breaker up to turn 3!
vonjankmon wrote: I think that rough riders may finally be usable in this edition. I'm with you on the flanking, not sure how well that is going to work for them but at 50 points a squad of 5 without any extra equipment that hide behind your lines will return their points cost handily against armies that charge in against your line. With all of the additional ways to get close to your opponent in 8th having a unit that can reliably reach most parts of your line and charge in to lay down some serious hurt for 50 points seems worth it to me.
My thoughts on using Rough Riders as flankers is to bring them in to position them for counter charges rather than to position them for immediate charges.
I.e. if I drop a bunch of Scions and my enemy is likely to try to kill them in melee rather than shoot them off the board, having the cavalry show up nearby can be useful. Similarly, if something is positioned to charge me somewhere, positioning the cavalry to hit them back seems a good use of flanking.
Basically I look at the Rough Riders' flanking ability as a way reinforce a particular point of my line and to make my opponent potentially reconsider specific moves and charges, rather than an offensive ability (which the Scion's deep strike drop and blast is).
In order for the MT Command Squad to get FRFSRF they would need to be given the order by a Tempestor Prime (who you'd probably deep strike in with them anyway) rather than a Company Commander due to the <Regiment> rule
I don't understand how that relates to anything I wrote. Why would you even need FRFSRF with a command squad? Surely they'd all have special weapons anyway.
To get the most bang from your buck it becomes a three part unit
1) Tempestor Prime with command rod (and two orders)
2) MT Command Squad with 4 Plasma guns
3) Scion squad of 5, 2 with plasma (Or squad of 10, 4 with Plasma guns)
24 (or 32) plasma gun shots hitting on 3+ for 166 points (or 228)
To be honest I'd go for the scion squad of 5 and save the points for another one of these (match play legal) 3 part units.
I'd probably take a plasma pistol on the Scion sergeant.
Regardless, do you think the Prime is worth it? If you drop him and just have 2 Scion squads, then you lose some plasma shots but gain enough points for a HWS with Heavy Bolters.
Damn I misread FRFSRF! I thought it granted all rapid fire weapons rapid fire 2 not just the flashlights. This changes everything.
After being schooled I can concede that maybe the Prime is no longer the be all and end all.
Rough riders seem to be pretty similar to scions to me if you arm each 5 man squad with 2 plasma guns.
Scions advantages: ability to deep strike anywhere (not on board edges), better BS, better ranged damage (hotshots), can take orders, 4+ save, slightly better LD
Riders advantages: 2 wounds (so higher durability), faster movement, much higher melee damage output, 4pts cheaper than similar scion unit.
I think they both look pretty useful to be honest. Looking forward to using my outflanking plasma-riders soon!
I'm looking at running 6 x catachan Infantry squads of 10, Three lines of two squads 3" gap down the middle, 1" gap between each model in their respective unit/line and a 3" gap between each line. Then position Harker, Straken, a priest and a commisar at the back of the center but still within 6" of all 6 of the units. Finally a Commanding officer on both the far left and right of this "blob" (but within 6" of their three nearest squads)
Each Infantry squad model then benefits from re-roll 1s to hit in shooting (Harker) +2 attacks in close combat (Straken and the priest) a leadership of 8 (commisar) and only ever loses one extra model due to failed moral (the summary execution rule). Thats even before the six available orders are issued (2 for stracken, 4 for the two commanding officers almost certainly FRFSRF). Also Harker, Straken, a priest and a commisar cannot be targeted because there will be closer units to the enemy.
My question is, will that 3" gap between the lines guarantee that after the first line is invariably assaulted, the enemy cannot consolidate into the next line?
This would allow the first rank to disengage (if its still alive) in my next go and use "get back in the fight" to get off another round of shooting, while the second and third lines open fire with FRFSRF(Hell with 3 attacks the second line might even charge in after)
If the 3" gap between each line is sufficient you could also just move each line back keeping the gaps allowing for this tactic to continue indefinitely.
Those of you with a keen eye will notice with the above I've filled 3 HQ, 3 Elite and 6 Troop slots. Just 3 FA and 3 Heavy support away from a Brigade. I've compiled a list that contains the above into a brigade AND a spearhead detachment (containing 3 Lemann Russes)for 1500 on the head if anyone is interested in seeing it.
It depends on how wide your front is. That 3" consolidate to the closest enemy can be brutal. I also think some units like Hormagaunts can pile in or consolidate further. I suggest just keeping your heavy weapons back a bit further, as the situation develops don't be afraid to maneuver units around. You can move your lasgun dudes backward and keep the heavy weapons stationary, etc.
Additionally, I have played a lot of games and initially tried BDEs. But honestly, 3 BNs are far superior, in my opinion. Less taxes, more slot options. I think you should consider it.
All 6 Infantry squads are lasgun only. The two squads with 1" between them and 3 " in the middle would cover a front of 41" (19 + 19 + 3). Lets assume that combined with the rest of my force and the rule that units cannot deep strike within 9" I'd be able to ensure (to the best of my ability) the en won't be able to attack this unit from the side.
I just want to confirm that since each model base is 1" (at least) then if there is a 3" gap between each line the assaulting unit will not be able to consolidate into the next line (forgetting hormagaunts for now)
If not then will 4" gap guarantee it.
As I said with the mentioned HQ, Elites and Troops I'm already on my way to a BDE. 3 BNs would require 3 extra HQs and 3 extra troops. Taking Harker, a priest and a commisar seems like a no brainer with a large amount of infantry.
Colonel Cross wrote: It depends on how wide your front is. That 3" consolidate to the closest enemy can be brutal. I also think some units like Hormagaunts can pile in or consolidate further. I suggest just keeping your heavy weapons back a bit further, as the situation develops don't be afraid to maneuver units around. You can move your lasgun dudes backward and keep the heavy weapons stationary, etc.
Additionally, I have played a lot of games and initially tried BDEs. But honestly, 3 BNs are far superior, in my opinion. Less taxes, more slot options. I think you should consider it.
Reference Hormagaunts, you are correct they can consolidate/pile in 6" with "bounding leap". They are however the only ones I can see on the nids list. As This just means they would be the priority to kill before the nids hit my lines. Have you heard of any other units that can do the same (help create a "if you see these shoot em first list")
I'm not aware of any other units with larger pile in or consolidate moves. I would say your 3" spacing would be fine for most cases and in most turns. Just be aware that enemy units must be within only 1" to pull your other squads in. So as long as you're reacting to your opponent and pulling units back as your lines are hit you should be fine. Flying cc units or units like Khorne Berzerkers who attack twice should probably be priorities as they can create a deeper threat than other cc units. I'd also consider tossing some flamers in if those squads are only intending to be a first wave speed bump. Always remember to toss a Frag grenade with your SGTs too, since their las pistol doesn't really benefit from FRFSRF.
Yodhrin wrote: So, opinions please: on a Gryphonne Chimera, would you pick a Storm Bolter, a Heavy Stubber, or just not bother?
I'd throw on Storm Bolters if you have a bit of spare points. It's not uncommon to end up with 1996/2000 once you have everything you actually want. I'd probably not bother otherwise, I think it would be better to grab another Lasgun or two that can benefit from orders and actually move around and shoot at full effectiveness. Hard to say, though. Chimeras are so vastly different than previous editions that I'm finding them difficult to evaluate.
As a question, what do you guys think of Veterans vs Infantry Squads?
Would a Veteran-based infantry army work, using Vanguard detachments instead of Battalions or Brigades? You'd have fewer CPs (and probably fewer models, too), but they'd have better BS and 3 times as many special weapons.
I just use eight infantry squads and no veterans. I don't even use HWTs or special weapons in the squads. I have two commissars and three commanders to lead those squads. They kill some enemy with their flashlights and the orders are very useful, especially Get Back in the Fight and FRFSRF. My real killers though are DS Scions, artillery, a pair of Hellhounds, and KC Pask. The infantry just has to keep the enemy away from my killers and also disrupt the enemy's attack plan.
JB wrote: I just use eight infantry squads and no veterans. I don't even use HWTs or special weapons in the squads. I have two commissars and three commanders to lead those squads. They kill some enemy with their flashlights and the orders are very useful, especially Get Back in the Fight and FRFSRF. My real killers though are DS Scions, artillery, a pair of Hellhounds, and KC Pask. The infantry just has to keep the enemy away from my killers and also disrupt the enemy's attack plan.
I do something similar, except I use four with plasmas. Almost the exact same tactic though. Worked really well against GK. Hard to take out tanks when you have to waste a round clearing out their ablative armor first.
JB wrote: My real killers though are DS Scions, artillery, a pair of Hellhounds, and KC Pask.
KC Pask?
Knight Commander Pask. Cadian hero tank.
For 45 points more than a basic leman russ you get 2+ BS and two orders per turn (one of which he can use on himself, which is likely an oversight but very clearly allowed RAW)
DoomMouse wrote: Rough riders seem to be pretty similar to scions to me if you arm each 5 man squad with 2 plasma guns.
Scions advantages: ability to deep strike anywhere (not on board edges), better BS, better ranged damage (hotshots), can take orders, 4+ save, slightly better LD
Riders advantages: 2 wounds (so higher durability), faster movement, much higher melee damage output, 4pts cheaper than similar scion unit.
I think they both look pretty useful to be honest. Looking forward to using my outflanking plasma-riders soon!
I would add that if your taking a brigade you need something in your FA slots and their arn't a lot if good options
I started 8th Edition with him in a Plasma Executioner with a hull lascannon and plasma cannon sponsons. After six games, I switched to a Punisher with heavy bolter sponsons and kept the hull lascannon.
He kicks arse against armies that assault my lines and is still useful against enemy gunlines but you have to be more careful where you put him. One of the advantages of having more unit drops than my opponents is that I can put Pask down after I see where all of my opponent's units are placed.
JB wrote: I just use eight infantry squads and no veterans. I don't even use HWTs or special weapons in the squads. I have two commissars and three commanders to lead those squads. They kill some enemy with their flashlights and the orders are very useful, especially Get Back in the Fight and FRFSRF. My real killers though are DS Scions, artillery, a pair of Hellhounds, and KC Pask. The infantry just has to keep the enemy away from my killers and also disrupt the enemy's attack plan.
I do something similar, except I use four with plasmas. Almost the exact same tactic though. Worked really well against GK. Hard to take out tanks when you have to waste a round clearing out their ablative armor first.
I sometimes mix in some plasma guns in the squads that are furthest from the enemy if I have any extra points. I have a multilaser scout sentinel that is only in the list as part of the FA tax for a brigade detachment. Six plasma guns would be a better use of points.
In five games, no opponent has killed all of my infantry squads. I won all five games and tabled the enemy army in four of them. I also tried three games using several tanks, less artillery (only three bassies), no scions, and five veteran squads with plasma guns and lascannons instead of pure lasgun infantry squads. Those games were less successful. I still won two of three games but I had a far more difficult time.
I have only played one kill point scenario and all of my games were matched play with either 1000 or 2000 points. In the smaller games, I only used six infantry squads. My favorite artillery mix is three Wyverns with two Manticores.
This battle was versus Blood Angels. I messed up my point count and faced his 2000 points of mostly Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, and Dante with only 1792 points of imperial guard. I still tabled him in four turns because he hit my line in three waves: Death Company with Lemartes on turn two, Sanguinary Guard with an Ancient on turn three, and a Furioso Deadnought on turn four. Dante was shot down as the last model on turn four without ever entering the fight because he turned back to his deployment zone to face my scions that had wiped out two squads of objective guarding scouts.
DoomMouse wrote: Rough riders seem to be pretty similar to scions to me if you arm each 5 man squad with 2 plasma guns.
Scions advantages: ability to deep strike anywhere (not on board edges), better BS, better ranged damage (hotshots), can take orders, 4+ save, slightly better LD
Riders advantages: 2 wounds (so higher durability), faster movement, much higher melee damage output, 4pts cheaper than similar scion unit.
I think they both look pretty useful to be honest. Looking forward to using my outflanking plasma-riders soon!
I would add that if your taking a brigade you need something in your FA slots and their arn't a lot if good options
DoomMouse wrote: Rough riders seem to be pretty similar to scions to me if you arm each 5 man squad with 2 plasma guns.
Scions advantages: ability to deep strike anywhere (not on board edges), better BS, better ranged damage (hotshots), can take orders, 4+ save, slightly better LD
Riders advantages: 2 wounds (so higher durability), faster movement, much higher melee damage output, 4pts cheaper than similar scion unit.
I think they both look pretty useful to be honest. Looking forward to using my outflanking plasma-riders soon!
I would add that if your taking a brigade you need something in your FA slots and their arn't a lot if good options
Hellhounds are amazing.
I'd second that, I love hellhounds so much. They're just so effective with that 2 damage! I have an artemia Hellhound too, and that is awesome. The 2d6 hits take the highest is so good.
Banewolf can do some work too, especially against nids monstrous creatures.
There are a few promising options in 8th to take advantage of his BS2+. The two load outs I've been using is the Punisher with hull and sponson Heavy Bolters like I ran in 7th; that's 29 S5 shots of horde mowing goodness. I've also tried out a Vanquisher with hull Lascannon. The latter isn't exactly overwhelming, but it does almost guarantee two very hard hitting shots for taking on the heavier stuff across the table. Adding Multi Melta sponsons to the Vanquisher is an option too, but not one that fits in my own points lists. I've got enough deep striking Scions to handle those needs in closer quarters.
The Vanquisher is inferior to the Battle Cannon against every target. One better AP and 2D6 pick highest damage does not compensate for D6 shots with D3 damage. The same goes for the Demolisher, while the Punisher is almost as good against hard targets. In fact, a normal Leman Russ Annihilator Turret (Twin Lascannon turret) will deal more damage against heavy tanks than Pask in a Vanquisher.
In fact, the Vanquisher cannon is one I would never recommend anyone to take. alongside the Eradicator and the Exterminator.
So how do people think punisher russes compares to taurox primes (with gatling cannons and hot shot volley guns).
Im thinking of either running pask and a tank commander in punishers, or or the same points i could get 4 tauroxes and still have points over.
The russes have better str on thier weapons, higher survability and better accuracy(reroll1's and no penalty on main gun while moving), but the tauroxes put out double the volume of shots.
ThePie wrote: So how do people think punisher russes compares to taurox primes (with gatling cannons and hot shot volley guns).
Im thinking of either running pask and a tank commander in punishers, or or the same points i could get 4 tauroxes and still have points over.
The russes have better str on thier weapons, higher survability and better accuracy(reroll1's and no penalty on main gun while moving), but the tauroxes put out double the volume of shots.
This is my problem with the Punisher Russ; there are better places to get the Punisher Cannon, specifically those Taurox Primes you mentioned as well as the Vulture, which is probably the ultimate Punisher Cannon platform.
I get that you're taking it for volume of shots, but there's something odd to me about the HB sponsons and hull gun on a Punisher having better range and AP than its main gun.
Does anyone know if the Forgeworld Vanquisher Stygies VIII Conversion Kit fit on the chassis of a regular Leman Russ?
I.e. does it fit without having to be glued on, like the regular Leman Russ turrets do?
Aenarian wrote: The Vanquisher is inferior to the Battle Cannon against every target. One better AP and 2D6 pick highest damage does not compensate for D6 shots with D3 damage. The same goes for the Demolisher, while the Punisher is almost as good against hard targets. In fact, a normal Leman Russ Annihilator Turret (Twin Lascannon turret) will deal more damage against heavy tanks than Pask in a Vanquisher.
In fact, the Vanquisher cannon is one I would never recommend anyone to take. alongside the Eradicator and the Exterminator.
Not exactly.
Without Pask, the Leman Russ Vanquisher has both a higher chance of doing nothing and a much higher cumulative chance of doing "a lot of wounds". This is rather important, as it does give the Vanquisher a better chance of completely destroying an enemy vehicle in one salvo. The Annihilator is strictly superior than it, though.
These guys are... ok for a cheap fast attack choice. You'll need to bring at least three if you want to create 'reserve deny' bubbles, simply because Guard usually fill their deployment zone.
If you really want a Brigade detachment, they are an ok choice.
Devildog.
These babies were surprisingly effective. With a multi-melta in the hull it forces enemies to deal with them or watch them take out a vehicle a turn. I'm not kidding, one of my Devildogs left 1 wound on a Helldrake.
However.... at 128 points, they are competing with the likes of a Manticore. Who can deal out a lot more damage and is oddly enough just as tanky.
Maybe not the best option but you will definitely not regret it if you want to take one or two.
Infantry squads with grenade launcher and missile launchers.
To try something other than the standard plasma/lascannon combo, i had several infantry squads with grenade launchers and missile launchers.
First the missile launcher. They actually aren't too bad. S8 means that they still wound pretty much anything on a 3+, and AP-2 isn't too shabby either.
However... I found that I almost never used the frag missile option. Granted I was playing against Marines. Frag missiles might be an option against horde armies, but you are probably gonna use the Krak option to take down their vehicles/transports anyway.
In short, it isn't a bad option, but you'll find yourself shooting the krak missile 9/10 times, thus making the Lacannon a better option.
Now the grenade launcher. Unfortunately, this baby has had it's days compared to plasma. The frag grenade is simply an average of 3,5 lasgun shots and the krak grenade isn't even anti-transport anymore, since it wounds most transports in bloody 5+'s!
Conclusion: spend two more points and grab yourself something much shinier and warmer (plasma gun).
MVP's from the match:
Astropaths. These.guys. They are 100% auto-include in any of my armies now. just.... sooo much utility for 15 points!
Deny the witch bubbles, ignore cover bubbles and some decent power as well.... just take em. NOW!
Vindicare Assassins. Nothing is more hilarious than to watch the likes of Kharn, Ahriman or Grahzkull cower in cover because their heads will get blown off by two of these. (Grazkhull with one wound left dove into the belly of a Gorkanaut and didn't dare to come out xD)
Just mention this sentence after you wounded a target: 'AP3, No invuln saves, no cover'. All my opponents so far called bs on that xD.
Surprisingly enough, they haven't killed anything yet in any of my matches. Mostly the enemy characters simply stay out of LoS. But watching Kharn spend two turns advancing just to hop from cover to cover kind is very interesting. Perhaps better positioning or splitting them up might be effective against this tactic.
Let me know if you have any questions about my matches!
I think your post just persuaded me to pick up a Vindicare next time I'm at my local GW. In all fairness, I've heard nothing but good things about them, I just always opted for a Culexus due to never running psykers to any avail with my Guard in 7th. All of the Assassins appears to have a decent role on the battlefield now.
Doctoralex, out of curiosity, what artillery have you been running?
Aenarian wrote: The Vanquisher is inferior to the Battle Cannon against every target. One better AP and 2D6 pick highest damage does not compensate for D6 shots with D3 damage. The same goes for the Demolisher, while the Punisher is almost as good against hard targets. In fact, a normal Leman Russ Annihilator Turret (Twin Lascannon turret) will deal more damage against heavy tanks than Pask in a Vanquisher.
In fact, the Vanquisher cannon is one I would never recommend anyone to take. alongside the Eradicator and the Exterminator.
Not exactly.
Without Pask, the Leman Russ Vanquisher has both a higher chance of doing nothing and a much higher cumulative chance of doing "a lot of wounds". This is rather important, as it does give the Vanquisher a better chance of completely destroying an enemy vehicle in one salvo. The Annihilator is strictly superior than it, though.
Ghorgul wrote: I did analysis on havoc weaponry and my conclusion was that missile launcher is all around best choice. It is same price as lascannon and inferior to it against heavy targets, but not by much. The best part about missile launcher is ability to use frag if needed, allowing the squad to work as anti-horde. My opinion is that Missile launcher is best choice for TAC list.
The thing is though, how often do you need the Frag mode? It seems like you can cover that pretty easily with other weapons and FRFSRF (not to mention cheap HWSs with Mortars or Heavy Bolters).
These guys are... ok for a cheap fast attack choice. You'll need to bring at least three if you want to create 'reserve deny' bubbles, simply because Guard usually fill their deployment zone.
If you really want a Brigade detachment, they are an ok choice.
Out of interest, have you tried Sentinels with other weapons?
Now the grenade launcher. Unfortunately, this baby has had it's days compared to plasma. The frag grenade is simply an average of 3,5 lasgun shots and the krak grenade isn't even anti-transport anymore, since it wounds most transports in bloody 5+'s!
Conclusion: spend two more points and grab yourself something much shinier and warmer (plasma gun).
Was there anything at all you liked about the Grenade Launcher?
Astropaths. These.guys. They are 100% auto-include in any of my armies now. just.... sooo much utility for 15 points!
Deny the witch bubbles, ignore cover bubbles and some decent power as well.... just take em. NOW!
I was about to correct you on the price . . . and then I realised that the 6pt Telepathica Stave is entirely optional.
...
Yeah, I think a few of these are going to make it into my lists now.
Vindicare Assassins. Nothing is more hilarious than to watch the likes of Kharn, Ahriman or Grahzkull cower in cover because their heads will get blown off by two of these. (Grazkhull with one wound left dove into the belly of a Gorkanaut and didn't dare to come out xD)
Just mention this sentence after you wounded a target: 'AP3, No invuln saves, no cover'. All my opponents so far called bs on that xD.
Surprisingly enough, they haven't killed anything yet in any of my matches. Mostly the enemy characters simply stay out of LoS. But watching Kharn spend two turns advancing just to hop from cover to cover kind is very interesting. Perhaps better positioning or splitting them up might be effective against this tactic.
Pleased to hear that these are good because I want to try one soon (I found I have a great conversion for one).
Out of interest, what do you shoot at when their characters are all hiding?
Doctoralex wrote: Let me know if you have any questions about my matches!
Just one more - could you post the full list(s) you used?
Aenarian wrote: The Vanquisher is inferior to the Battle Cannon against every target. One better AP and 2D6 pick highest damage does not compensate for D6 shots with D3 damage. The same goes for the Demolisher, while the Punisher is almost as good against hard targets. In fact, a normal Leman Russ Annihilator Turret (Twin Lascannon turret) will deal more damage against heavy tanks than Pask in a Vanquisher.
In fact, the Vanquisher cannon is one I would never recommend anyone to take. alongside the Eradicator and the Exterminator.
Not exactly.
Without Pask, the Leman Russ Vanquisher has both a higher chance of doing nothing and a much higher cumulative chance of doing "a lot of wounds". This is rather important, as it does give the Vanquisher a better chance of completely destroying an enemy vehicle in one salvo. The Annihilator is strictly superior than it, though.
He's still not accounting for the distributions. In my opinion, the CCDF is more important than the average value.
I ran off the numbers via monte carlo simulation before the edition dropped. If I can find them, I can re-post my charts.
Anyway, my 2c on the Leman Russes:
Pask should command a Battle Tank, Tank Commanders should select Annihilators, Demolishers, [or Vanquisher/Battle Tank, but less preferred], and the tank followers should be Punishers.
To that end, I made a Katherine style analysis script in python myself a while ago. Been meaning to post it, but I honestly forgot about it.
https://github.com/daed/mathhammer if anyone wants to work out their own mathhammer. It requires python and I think I have it set to do some 100,000 samples, but you can adjust that down if you don't want it to run so long or have an older computer.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Requires a pretty new python too, actually. I think it's like, 3.6 minimum. It uses the RNG from a relatively recent crypto library, which is why.
To that end, I made a Katherine style analysis script in python myself a while ago. Been meaning to post it, but I honestly forgot about it.
https://github.com/daed/mathhammer if anyone wants to work out their own mathhammer. It requires python and I think I have it set to do some 100,000 samples, but you can adjust that down if you don't want it to run so long or have an older computer.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Requires a pretty new python too, actually. I think it's like, 3.6 minimum. It uses the RNG from a relatively recent crypto library, which is why.
Complementary Cumulative Distribution Function. It's the chance of doing at least X wounds.
Nice script, by the way.
I've always thought that looking at the average along wasn't super useful. The game isn't long enough for the vehicle's results to reach it's average value. For example, the Vanquisher has a very, very high chance of doing nothing, and a fairly okay chance of doing a 5 or 6 wounds, but an almost zero percent chance of actually doing it's average value.
Fast attack
2x scout sentinel, heavy flamer
2x devildog, multi-melta
Heavy Support
3x basilisk
Automatically Appended Next Post:
slowclinic wrote: I think your post just persuaded me to pick up a Vindicare next time I'm at my local GW. In all fairness, I've heard nothing but good things about them, I just always opted for a Culexus due to never running psykers to any avail with my Guard in 7th. All of the Assassins appears to have a decent role on the battlefield now.
Doctoralex, out of curiosity, what artillery have you been running?
I would advice and get two. One doesn't really cut it in terms of damage. Yea it's heavy on the points, but being able to quite reliable snipe ANY character per turn....
You can't go wrong with 3x basilisk. They put out a reliable amount of shots and can really tear a new one into any enemy unit.
Manticores are pretty solid too, though they usually need a command point to re-roll one of the 2D6's. S10 also doesn't do that much more than S9, since T5 is quite uncommon (Where are all the bikers at? Haven't seen em in any of my matches!) You'll also very rarely see T9-10.
Wyvern is good, but competes heavily with the Heavy Weapons mortar team. Well it's not really compete, the mortar is just straight up better.
I've always thought that looking at the average along wasn't super useful. The game isn't long enough for the vehicle's results to reach it's average value. For example, the Vanquisher has a very, very high chance of doing nothing, and a fairly okay chance of doing a 5 or 6 wounds, but an almost zero percent chance of actually doing it's average value.
I agree. I mean, sure the average on a d6 is 3.5, but the likelihood of a single d6 disappointing you when you're expecting a 3.5 is about 50%. I used an excel spreadsheet that I did some bizarre math in to estimate probability spreads across all outcomes years ago, but that was more number porn and less useful information. I think your way of actually taking a couple thousand outcomes and modelling off that is much better, at least, from a practical point of view.
Thanks. I always feel it helps to have the whole picture.
I had a few other questions though (it was probably hard to tell because I messed up the quote thing in my last post):
1) Out of interest, have you tried Sentinels with other weapons?
2) Was there anything at all you liked about the Grenade Launcher?
3) Not a question, just wanted to thank you for making me realise that Telepathica staves on Astropaths were optional.
4) If the enemy characters are all hiding out of LoS, what do you aim for with your Vindicare?
1: Nope, though I see no reason not too. You can get any other weapon as a heavy weapons team for the same price, only a heavy weapons team easily get's you 2x-3x the firepower.
(scout) sentinels pretty much serve two purposes: Filling the Fast Attack slot for a Brigade and creating anti-deep strike bubbles. Giving them heavy flamers makes the most use out of their movement and let's you fire at least once (since you are gonna overwatch in their first turn when it dies).
2: I'm afraid there isn't. The Krak grenade was just such a disappointment with the fact that it wounded marines on 3+ and only had AP-1. And the frag version is barely better than a basic Lasgun in rapid-fire range!
3: Yea man, no probs! To tell you about a sweet trick I learned:
Give at least one of your Astropaths Gaze of the Emperor. Then, when an enemy melee blob is close, advance him as close as possible to them and cast it. You'll get an average of 7" on the beam, meaning you can easily cover 10+ models. With a 4+ mortal wound, that will kill 5 enemy models!
4: Usually any character with (high) invuln saves. Terminators (especially with Storm Shields) are great targets. A vindicare will probably snipe on a per turn. Though it's less point-efficient than him sniping a character, it still an easy kill for something that would take your other units a lot more effort.
I've always thought that looking at the average along wasn't super useful.
It's both looking at the averages and the chances of said averages.
A good example I always use is the Basilisk's 2D6 take the highest VS the Manticore's 2D6.
I don't know the exact percentages, but I believe the Basilisk has +- 80% chance to get a 4 shots, but the Manticore has +- 43% chance to get 7 shots on 2D6.
While the Manticore will do more damage on average, this damage is spread out over multiple rolls. With the first two-three turns being the most important, would you rather go for lower results, but more consistency (Basilisk), or a weapon that on 'average' is better, but can sway both ways more often (Manticore)?
Of course, the Manticore can heavily benefit from the command re-roll.
I, as an engineer myself, also agree with Inquisitor Lord Katherine that looking beyond the average is important, but I usually don't spend the time to write simulations for it, and I think the average will suffice in many ways. If you look at the number of wounds on battle tanks though, you will almost never be able to really cripple it in one turn (the Vanquisher does 2D6 pick highest for example, which could result in 6 wounds, which is still not enough for BS5+ on a Leman Russ), I think the average will tell you enough in most cases.
I mean yeah, that one time your Vanquisher saves the match will be an awesome memory (I still remember mine exploding a Necron Lord's barge the first shot it took), but all the times it just scratched the paint or simply botched the roll entirely? Much more likely.
Though I can say that this discussion has me wanting to write my own software to do mathhammer.
1: Nope, though I see no reason not too. You can get any other weapon as a heavy weapons team for the same price, only a heavy weapons team easily get's you 2x-3x the firepower.
(scout) sentinels pretty much serve two purposes: Filling the Fast Attack slot for a Brigade and creating anti-deep strike bubbles. Giving them heavy flamers makes the most use out of their movement and let's you fire at least once (since you are gonna overwatch in their first turn when it dies).
2: I'm afraid there isn't. The Krak grenade was just such a disappointment with the fact that it wounded marines on 3+ and only had AP-1. And the frag version is barely better than a basic Lasgun in rapid-fire range!
3: Yea man, no probs! To tell you about a sweet trick I learned:
Give at least one of your Astropaths Gaze of the Emperor. Then, when an enemy melee blob is close, advance him as close as possible to them and cast it. You'll get an average of 7" on the beam, meaning you can easily cover 10+ models. With a 4+ mortal wound, that will kill 5 enemy models!
4: Usually any character with (high) invuln saves. Terminators (especially with Storm Shields) are great targets. A vindicare will probably snipe on a per turn. Though it's less point-efficient than him sniping a character, it still an easy kill for something that would take your other units a lot more effort.
1) So far, I've only tried Armoured Sentinels with Lascannons and HKs. Both to fill out my FA slots in a Brigade and also to provide a little extra long-range fire (especially since I don't use artillery). They've actually been pretty decent so far. They're not especially hard to kill and their shooting is mediocre, but like everything in guard what they lack in quality they make up for in quantity.
Anyway, I'll try those scout sentinels with heavy flamers you mentioned. If nothing else, it will shave 24pts off my list that I can then use elsewhere.
2) That's a shame. I have a ton of models with Grenade Launchers and it would be nice to use them for something other than proxy R&F guys.
3) Thanks, I'll give that a whirl.
4) Ah, okay. I was wondering if you'd shoot him at vehicles, but yeah that makes a lot more sense. I have a Vindicare conversion that I'm eager to use, so I'll give him in try in the next game I play with IG.
Hey, been hoping to build a new army for 8th (a themed knight feudal world list) but pennies are tight at the moment so hoping to reconstruct an old raptors and scion force I had into a legal list as luckily folks are generally ok with proxying round here as long as its easy to tell whats what.
Going for scions supported with a few assassins and a couple of taurox and planes providing the heavy weaponry. Just want to check that my ideas are legal and not too cheesey as it does involves using several different types of AM regiments.
First of all am I right in understanding you can have multiple imperium forces in the same detachment? ie. guard and assassins and more specifically Elysians and DKOK with vanilla guard, reason being I want to use Elysian officers of the fleet with my the scions to buff up the shooting of the air support.
Secondly, can DKOK engineers go in Valkryies or vendettas? Fairly sure they can as the the valkryie rule say they can carry any astra militarum infantry and the DKOK engineers have that keyword. Do folks think they are a suitable unit to stick in the fliers and if so what load out do folks recommend for both the planes and the units inside. Personally I like the engineers due to the close range weapons and increased WS to represent Assault scions, chuck 2 meltas in a unit of 10 and bundle a priest and maybe a commissar in with them, original plan was to use a DKOK field officer rather than a commissar to reroll 1's to prevent over heating on carcass shells but apparently they have switched out the "take aim!" order for the regiment specific ones.
I really don't see the reason to take a punisher leman russ over the vulture. Even if the vulture's gatling cannon WASN'T twice as many shots (and still cost the same amount), it has 2 more wounds, hits on a 3+ if it doesn't move, and is hard to hit. The only benefit that the Leman Russ has over it is being T8 and 8 points cheaper.
Did I mention that the vulture gets twice as many shots?
Actually, though, being able to use sabre defense searchlights on the russ is nice too. In terms of efficiency, the vulture still comes out ahead (even if it's hitting on 4's).
Goodness that bird is just ridiculous. Maybe I should get 3 instead of 2
I am I the process of building an IG list and I am debating wyverns versus mortar heavy weapon teams. For the cost of one wyvern, I can bring three mortar squads for a total of nine D6 shots. The drawback of rerolling wounds seems minimal.
I'd like to hear the thoughts on this from more experienced Guard commanders.
crouching lictor wrote: I am I the process of building an IG list and I am debating wyverns versus mortar heavy weapon teams. For the cost of one wyvern, I can bring three mortar squads for a total of nine D6 shots. The drawback of rerolling wounds seems minimal.
I'd like to hear the thoughts on this from more experienced Guard commanders.
Pro for Mortar Squads:
- 9 D6 shots instead of 4 D6 shots.
Pro for Wyvern:
- Reroll to wound.
- Easy access to rerolling 1's to hit from Master of Ordnance.
- Way cheaper to buy with real money.
- Easier to hide on the battlefield.
- More resilient. 18 T3 5+ wounds vs 11 T6 3+ wounds? Overall I'd say the Wyvern is more resilient.
Let's do some math as well.
Vs. T3:
Wyvern: 14 shots on average, 7 hits, 6,27 wounds after reroll.
Mortars: 31,5 shots on average, 15,75 hits, 10,5 wounds. (+68%)
Vs T4:
Wyvern: 14 shots on average, 7 hit, 5,25 wounds after reroll.
Mortars: 31,5 shots on average, 15,75 hits, 7,88 wounds. (+50%)
Vs T5, T6, T7.
Wyvern: 14 shots on average, 7 hit, 3,89 wounds after reroll.
Mortars: 31,5 shots on average, 15,75 hits, 5,25 wounds (+35%)
Vs T8+
Wyvern: 14 shots on average, 7 hit, 2,14 wounds after reroll.
Mortars: 31,5 shots on average, 15,75 hits, 2,63 wounds. (+23%)
TLDR: Mortars do more damage per point than the Wyvern, but imo they aren't worth all the drawbacks compared to a Wyvern.
If you need them as cheap heavy support-choices for filling out a detatchment however, they're alright.
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