Is it better to run them either as medium range anti infantry (with gattling cannon and hot-shot volley guns), or as long range fire support (missile launcher or battle cannon, with autocannons).
While the anti infantry version is cheaper, i think the long range version might be more survivable, while still providing good value (plus they don't have to move so they don't take movement penalty).
Pro for Wyvern:
- Way cheaper to buy with real money.
- Easier to hide on the battlefield.
Going to dispute these two points. You should have plenty of mortars lying around from your normal heavy weapons teams so really all you need are 65mm bases and crews. Even buying full crews from bitz sellers for mine it came to about even with the retail cost of a Hydra.
As for the second, I had a revelation in the shower after losing a game partially because the mortars were taking up valuable los blocking space and my warlord (Pask) got sniped turn one because I didn't have anywhere safe to put him. That is that mortars could fire at targets from a sealed box if they were allowed to deploy inside of one. I now prioritize placing them inside buildings, typically in the corners, leaving the rest of my deployment zone a lot roomier than it used to be.
So its pretty aggressive and fits perfect into my playstyle,
What do you think about them? Would you take a other (better?) unit comp.?
I'll just take about -500 points for dkok, maybe you have netter ideas for some "dkok-bombs"
Looks mean! I think it would be a great compliment to a standard guard force. One question though, why the command squad death riders instead of the standard ones?
So I've been looking and can't find anyone anywhere selling it. Does anyone know where I can pick up a sabre defense platform with searchlight or a decent equivilant. I'd prefer a FW varient, but oop model and all. You can pm me so not to further derail.
I have been thinking about how to use my models in the new edition and how to satisfy my inner Dorn at the same time and I've come up with an idea I want to pass by you guys to see if it'll be even close to effective before I commit to it;
3 Tarantulas (Heavy Bolters)
2 Sabre Platforms (Autocannons)
3 Defence Emplacements
3 SWS w/ max plasma (in the defence emplacements)
1 Void Shield Generator
Together it's a firebase. I'd set it up at chokepoints or as far forward as possible in order to apply pressure and hold the enemy back from my artillery etc.
I have been debating the effectiveness of having the SWS inside Defence Emplacements inside a VSG bubble. I could just rely on the 5++ BUT if the enemy uses AP- weaponry, the 4+ from the Defence Emplacements comes into its own.
I've also been debating using it so aggressively because if the enemy ends up taking it - I've just given them defence emplacements and a VSG close to my deployment or in a critical area --- I'm just hoping that the effort spent to take it is disproportionate to the benefits they get from it.
So its pretty aggressive and fits perfect into my playstyle,
What do you think about them? Would you take a other (better?) unit comp.?
I'll just take about -500 points for dkok, maybe you have netter ideas for some "dkok-bombs"
Looks mean! I think it would be a great compliment to a standard guard force. One question though, why the command squad death riders instead of the standard ones?
Cause they can outflank and give this abillity up to 5 other "Deathriders" (the comander in my case)
/edit: i think im gonna scratchbuild a DKOK-Yarick and put him into the chimera together with the engineers, and drop out the whole Deathriders. Dont know of they worth the points...or maybe 10 "normal" Deathriders, without outflank for a beta strike...?
Going to dispute these two points. You should have plenty of mortars lying around from your normal heavy weapons teams so really all you need are 65mm bases and crews. Even buying full crews from bitz sellers for mine it came to about even with the retail cost of a Hydra.
That's quite alot of work to end up "about even" in price.
You also assume that everyone has plenty of heavy weapon team bitz lying around.
Is it better to run them either as medium range anti infantry (with gattling cannon and hot-shot volley guns), or as long range fire support (missile launcher or battle cannon, with autocannons).
While the anti infantry version is cheaper, i think the long range version might be more survivable, while still providing good value (plus they don't have to move so they don't take movement penalty).
The former. For not many more points, the manticore or even earthshaker batteries are better long range fire support.
vipoid wrote: I've got a question for you guys (based off something that came up in a different thead):
If plasmaguns ceased to exist, would you start taking Grenade Launchers instead?
You could take all the special weapons we have but grenade launchers out of the codex and I still probably wouldn't bring the dumb things, I'd just spam heavy weapons instead. Grenade Launchers are awful.
vipoid wrote: I've got a question for you guys (based off something that came up in a different thead):
If plasmaguns ceased to exist, would you start taking Grenade Launchers instead?
You could take all the special weapons we have but grenade launchers out of the codex and I still probably wouldn't bring the dumb things, I'd just spam heavy weapons instead. Grenade Launchers are awful.
What conceptual change could make grenade launchers worth bringing?
Right now its 5 points, plus the trooper, so 9 points total. For 8 points we can bring two troopers with rapid fire 1 Lasguns which have the same range and can receive (and let's be honest, will) FRFSRF. That gives minimum 4 shots, 8 at short range. That completely eclipses the frag grenade aspect, which has an average of 3.5 hits. The assault aspect of a grenade launcher seems completely worthless. I can't see any purpose to using that feature.
So really, the most grenade launchers should cost is 3 points, if we're only considering the frag option. And given their randomness, I'd say 2 points might not be unreasonable. The Krak option is honestly nothing to write home about, I think that ought to be free.
So if Grenade launchers were 2 points, would I include them? Yeah at that point I probably would, if I didn't have the spare points for anything better. What do you think?
Imperial_Wolf wrote: How would you guys run a unit of three armored sentinels? Three las cannons?
Well, I wouldn't run them as a unit - I'd run them separately. That aside, yeah, I'd use Lascannons. Maybe add some Hunter Killers if I have any spare points (aiming to fire them ASAP). For the most part, I'd aim to have them start in decent locations and remain stationary for as long as its practical for them to do so.
What conceptual change could make grenade launchers worth bringing?
Right now its 5 points, plus the trooper, so 9 points total. For 8 points we can bring two troopers with rapid fire 1 Lasguns which have the same range and can receive (and let's be honest, will) FRFSRF. That gives minimum 4 shots, 8 at short range. That completely eclipses the frag grenade aspect, which has an average of 3.5 hits. The assault aspect of a grenade launcher seems completely worthless. I can't see any purpose to using that feature.
So really, the most grenade launchers should cost is 3 points, if we're only considering the frag option. And given their randomness, I'd say 2 points might not be unreasonable. The Krak option is honestly nothing to write home about, I think that ought to be free.
So if Grenade launchers were 2 points, would I include them? Yeah at that point I probably would, if I didn't have the spare points for anything better. What do you think?
I think that's the wrong direction. I'd much rather pay more and have a weapon that is actually worth a damn than pay a tiny price for a weapon that barely outclasses a lasgun. Otherwise, I'm just going to ignore the option entirely and take a more meaningful special weapon.
vipoid wrote: I've got a question for you guys (based off something that came up in a different thead):
If plasmaguns ceased to exist, would you start taking Grenade Launchers instead?
You could take all the special weapons we have but grenade launchers out of the codex and I still probably wouldn't bring the dumb things, I'd just spam heavy weapons instead. Grenade Launchers are awful.
What conceptual change could make grenade launchers worth bringing?
Right now its 5 points, plus the trooper, so 9 points total. For 8 points we can bring two troopers with rapid fire 1 Lasguns which have the same range and can receive (and let's be honest, will) FRFSRF. That gives minimum 4 shots, 8 at short range. That completely eclipses the frag grenade aspect, which has an average of 3.5 hits. The assault aspect of a grenade launcher seems completely worthless. I can't see any purpose to using that feature.
So really, the most grenade launchers should cost is 3 points, if we're only considering the frag option. And given their randomness, I'd say 2 points might not be unreasonable. The Krak option is honestly nothing to write home about, I think that ought to be free.
So if Grenade launchers were 2 points, would I include them? Yeah at that point I probably would, if I didn't have the spare points for anything better. What do you think?
Eh, I mean at that point it's not terrible, but now it's directly competing with the sniper rifle, which, when fielded in the numbers IG is capable of, is actually a pretty viable choice if you're tight on points but don't want the special weapon slot to go to waste
Vipoid wrote:
I think that's the wrong direction. I'd much rather pay more and have a weapon that is actually worth a damn than pay a tiny price for a weapon that barely outclasses a lasgun. Otherwise, I'm just going to ignore the option entirely and take a more meaningful special weapon.
This guy gets it.
If we really wanted Grenade Launchers to become a serious choice again, they need to fill some sort of niche or purpose. Just being cheap doesn't really do them any favors when literally every possible role they have is done by something else, and usually at the same cost or cheaper or just so much better that it doesn't even warrant a comparison. IG is never hurting for S3 shooting, even if a single command squad can theoretically spit out 24 S3 shots in a single phase, I'd just rather bring a conscript or infantry squad instead, who have more numbers, better board control, and only take up a troops slot. S6 is just in a really weird spot this edition and with a random damage profile can be quite hit and miss.
This is getting into proposed rules territory and would never ever happen, but in order to get me to take grenade launchers with their attack profile the way it is they really need some sort of utilitarian or toolbox rounds, such as say a flare round that helps with night fighting, or a smoke round that can be used to disrupt an enemy unit's aim. It would make the grenade launcher unique in that compared to most other weapons it's more of a tool and would have a variety of uses depending on the matchup. However, this adds more special rules to the game when the whole point of 8th is to try and dial these back.
As it sits I just don't think you'll ever see them show up in any serious list. Most of the time I've ever seen one fielded is either a new IG player who doesn't have anything better to run in his army, and even then they're normally proxies. If they show up in an older IG player's list, 99/100 times it's because he still has the models from when he started and just wants to get them out of the case for a game.
Think about it. Sure, you can make Grenade Launchers 2pts a piece all day long, but I still have to pay 40pts base for the infantry squad carrying it. If I've already set down 40pts for the squad, odds are I'm willing to pay the 5-10pts extra it takes to get a proper special weapon. The old saying "you get what you pay for" immediately springs to mind.
Which one would you pick and why? (Taking both rules or aesthetics into account.)
I'm having trouble deciding ...
They are about the same amount of points;
Macharius Heavy Tank with it's Battle Cannon, 2 Heavy Flamers, Heavy Stubber and Twin Heavy Stubber kicks in at 390 pts.
Valdor Tank Hunter with it's Neutron Laser, Heavy Flamer and 2 Heavy Stubbers kicks in at 395 pts.
Macharius Pro's:
- +2 Wounds.
- More secondary weapons (2 Heavy Flamers instead of 1, and 1 more Heavy Stubber.)
- Superior against smaller stuff due to higher rate of fire.
Valdor Pro's:
- £35 cheaper.
- Superior against vehicles.
- A vehicle damaged but not destroyed will be slightly gimped.
Jury is out:
- Valdor's Unstable Reactor. This thing is hilarious. The problem is that the Valdor is more likely to be in the middle of your own army when it explodes.
- They're surprisingly similar against monsters and the like, with the Macharius pulling ahead if there are invuln's involved.
That wasn't the question, altough it would've been a good answer if not for the fact that I already own a Baneblade-variant (Stormlord) and I don't really want another one.
As much as I enjoy how powerful Imperial Guard is at the moment, I feel that it isn't a fun army to fight against anymore.
Fighting a shooty army already isn't fun for a more melee-focused army, but our current firepower just turns it into a one-sided slaughterhouse.
No-one wants to see his beloved Khorne Beserkers in a Rhino first get obliterated by Basilisks and then shot to pieces by infantry squads.
No-one wants their favourite character (often representing the player himself or the reason they play said army) get sniped turn one by two Vindicare Assassins.
I mean, even with taking 'mediocre' units like grenade/missile launchers, sentinels etc, it still was very un-fun for my opponent...
As much as I enjoy how powerful Imperial Guard is at the moment, I feel that it isn't a fun army to fight against anymore.
Fighting a shooty army already isn't fun for a more melee-focused army, but our current firepower just turns it into a one-sided slaughterhouse.
No-one wants to see his beloved Khorne Beserkers in a Rhino first get obliterated by Basilisks and then shot to pieces by infantry squads.
No-one wants their favourite character (often representing the player himself or the reason they play said army) get sniped turn one by two Vindicare Assassins.
I mean, even with taking 'mediocre' units like grenade/missile launchers, sentinels etc, it still was very un-fun for my opponent...
What can I do to help their experience?
I'll been thinking along the same lines. I've used IG a few times now (led by St. Celestine - both because I have a conversion that I really like using and to give myself a more interesting HQ) and all but one of them have been pretty brutal for my opponents.
My army is entirely infantry, save for a few Sentinels (they're the only FA choices I own). I've got infantry squads with flamers in the front and then ones with lascannons and missile launchers behind, with HB HWSs right at the back (along with CCs and Commissars to give them orders and keep them around). Basically, it's just too many bodies for my opponents to kill. I feel especially sorry for my opponents' melee units - which will usually butcher a 47pt screening squad and then get obliterated by massed lasgun and plasma fire. What's more, even if they take out those screening squads, the positioning of my other units basically means that the next squad in line takes their place (so if they kill the flamer squad, the plasma and missile squad will act as a screening unit for the plasma and lascannon squad - preventing most multi-charges). And then of course there are the dreaded MT command squads with plasmaguns. Even with the new faq, I can still afford plenty of them (or just ordinary scions).
Anyway, for my next game, I was wondering about proxying DKOK and trying to play them as flavourfully as possible - taking flamers and meltas (maybe some plasma) and rushing them forward with the intention of getting close and even charging the enemy. Incidentally, Celestine will probably appreciate this change of tactic.
I honestly don't know whether this will work but I'm hoping that it will at least be more fun for my opponents (perhaps for me at well).
I've updated the post with some pro's/con's and some mathhammer.
Well, I've no experience whatsoever with these tanks or their weapons, so I can't really comment on which has the best rules.
But from a purely aesthetic point of view, I think the Valdor Tank Hunter has the more interesting design.
I have used both, and they're pretty self explanatory and I would say incomparable. The Valdor Tank Hunter hunts tanks (reeeeeeally well, to the point of imposing To Hit modifiers just for bapping the enemy on the nose) , and the Macharius hunts most everything else adequately but not exceptionally.
I still wouldn't take them over any of our other special weapons.
- Flamer is better against hordes and for guaranteed overwatch.
- Plasma is still a better all-rounder (even if you increase its cost).
- Melta is vastly superior against hard targets.
The issue with the grenade launcher (which I'm afraid your proposed fix doesn't address) is that it serves no purpose. It's anti-infantry mode is basically the equivalent of a few lasgun shots. If I might employ a Monty Python quote "We've already got one!"
As for the Krak mode, the strength and AP are both far too low to be a meaningful threat to MCs, vehicles or even Heavy Infantry.
Also, I honestly don't know why you'd want to reduce the range and thus remove the synergy with lasguns. Is it not bad enough already?
Anyway, I think you either need to give it better stats (not merely an extra shot at close-range) or else give it the option to fire some utility grenades.
As much as I enjoy how powerful Imperial Guard is at the moment, I feel that it isn't a fun army to fight against anymore.
Fighting a shooty army already isn't fun for a more melee-focused army, but our current firepower just turns it into a one-sided slaughterhouse.
No-one wants to see his beloved Khorne Beserkers in a Rhino first get obliterated by Basilisks and then shot to pieces by infantry squads.
No-one wants their favourite character (often representing the player himself or the reason they play said army) get sniped turn one by two Vindicare Assassins.
I mean, even with taking 'mediocre' units like grenade/missile launchers, sentinels etc, it still was very un-fun for my opponent...
What can I do to help their experience?
Sounds like you have a pretty good set of models on your hands and that your army works really well. Congrats! Even with a powerful army, not everyone knows how to construct a good list with synergy.
Now that you are starting to have an understanding of what your army can do well, start trying to understand your opponent's army better. Those berserkers, for example, aren't doing bad in a rhino but the name of the game for assault units is shot mitigation. They need to get to combat before they get shot to all hell. So how can Zerkers do that, for example?
Well, the Dreadclaw drop pod is a good start. It's not cheap but the pod itself does tons of work too. It gets the zerkers a 9" charge on turn 1. But you won't always make a 9" charge, even with an icon of wrath letting you re-roll your charge distance. Let's see if we can do better (we can)
Step 1: turn that dreadclaw into a Kharybdis. You definitely did need 20 zerkers (also known in my circle as Kharn and his 19 closest friends)
Step 2: pray that Khorne will forgive you for taking a daemon prince that is not Khorne
Step 3: pray that the phrase "Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows; only that it flows" covers the inevitable bludgeoning that you will take from casting warptime on your zerkers
Step 4: auto make charge unless you roll snake eyes twice
If he doesn't like Forge World, grab a storm raven and call it a "storm eagle". The Chaos version is a pretty good gunboat and it can also carry 20 zerkers. And it's much more hardy than a rhino. And FWIW, I am a big fan of proxying something like a drop pod as a dreadclaw before you commit to the forge world purchase. But I doubt he'd regret it.
For you, have fun continuing to try out units that you think are just bad. Try crazy things. Maybe they'll work and maybe they won't but if you just bring all the best units, then yeah it probably won't often end well for your opponent.
Which one would you pick and why? (Taking both rules or aesthetics into account.)
I'm having trouble deciding ...
Ruleswise, I think it depends on what you need it for. The Valdor is obviously the best one against vehicles due to both higher damage and the -1 to BS, but it is not as flexible and it does worse against monsters. So for this, I guess it depends on what you're usually facing but in general vehicles are more prevalent. I would probably pick the Valdor if I'm just choosing one in a vacuum, but consider I have a lot of Rapier Laser Destroyers and other stuff to kill tanks, so the Heavy Tank gets my vote for this although it is very close.
Aesthetically, I love the Macharius and both the Vulcan and Heavy Tank are on my list of things to buy, right after another platoon of DKoK, some Earthshaker and Medusa Carriages and some other bits and bobs.
I'd like to try a DKoK army, but I don't have the rules. If I was to try making one with regular guardsmen, how do you think I could best represent them? (In terms of army composition, loadouts and general strategy.)
Ideally, I'd like to favour infantry over vehicles whenever possible. Is that also feasible?
Requizen wrote: Anyone taken a GSC detachment with their AM? Is there anything in their list that really benefits us as much as it does vice versa for them?
I'm taking an IG Detachment with my GSC
Purestrains are great. An assault threat that your opponent HAS to deal with really takes the pressure off of your backline units
Or, put in GSC context, "man these IG guns really let my Purestrains get to the good stuff on the turn they come in!"
im looking at GSC now myself too.
they really are just IG with some super close combat support.
they lack orders but if you run a GSC detachment and a separate IG detachment you can get around that super easy.
Yeah I'm wondering if GSC are interesting to put with my Scions. A few Goliaths or Chimaeras full of melee GSC units to rush up the field might be good support for DSing Scion units.
Which one would you pick and why? (Taking both rules or aesthetics into account.)
I'm having trouble deciding ...
Ruleswise, I think it depends on what you need it for. The Valdor is obviously the best one against vehicles due to both higher damage and the -1 to BS, but it is not as flexible and it does worse against monsters. So for this, I guess it depends on what you're usually facing but in general vehicles are more prevalent. I would probably pick the Valdor if I'm just choosing one in a vacuum, but consider I have a lot of Rapier Laser Destroyers and other stuff to kill tanks, so the Heavy Tank gets my vote for this although it is very close.
Aesthetically, I love the Macharius and both the Vulcan and Heavy Tank are on my list of things to buy, right after another platoon of DKoK, some Earthshaker and Medusa Carriages and some other bits and bobs.
Exactly the kind of reply I was hoping for, thanks.
I'm about to order a Malcador Infernus and a DKOK Death Rider Squadron, and only got the budget left for either the Valdor or the Macharius.
I'll probably end up getting the Valdor this time (I don't have any Rapier Laser Destroyers of my own ), but the Macharius is definately on my "to-get-list" in the future.
Speaking about the Malcador Infernus, you (or anyone really) don't happen to have any tips regarding it Aenarian?
Requizen wrote: Anyone taken a GSC detachment with their AM? Is there anything in their list that really benefits us as much as it does vice versa for them?
I'm taking pure IG detachment and a patriarch with as many Gene stealers as I can fit with my IG detachment. That's it.
There really is no reason NOT to take genestealers. They are one of the best assault units in game and when you include a separate detachment you can take whatever you want from Astra militarum. And I don't even need to buy that many more models since space hulk gave me a patriarch and 20 stealers, However I would like at least another 20 stealers. That's really a powerful <500point detachment you opponent has to deal with.
Of course I do play PURE imperium but stealers just make some narrative battles better since SO many people play pure imperium.
Which one would you pick and why? (Taking both rules or aesthetics into account.)
I'm having trouble deciding ...
They are about the same amount of points;
Macharius Heavy Tank with it's Battle Cannon, 2 Heavy Flamers, Heavy Stubber and Twin Heavy Stubber kicks in at 390 pts.
Valdor Tank Hunter with it's Neutron Laser, Heavy Flamer and 2 Heavy Stubbers kicks in at 395 pts.
Macharius Pro's:
- +2 Wounds.
- More secondary weapons (2 Heavy Flamers instead of 1, and 1 more Heavy Stubber.)
- Superior against smaller stuff due to higher rate of fire.
Valdor Pro's:
- £35 cheaper.
- Superior against vehicles.
- A vehicle damaged but not destroyed will be slightly gimped.
Jury is out:
- Valdor's Unstable Reactor. This thing is hilarious. The problem is that the Valdor is more likely to be in the middle of your own army when it explodes.
- They're surprisingly similar against monsters and the like, with the Macharius pulling ahead if there are invuln's involved.
If you want the prettier one, I vote for the Macharius. I personally love the look of the Macharius, but I can't justify something that expensive that I'd never use.
If you want it for the rules... Uh, don't. Not worth 400 points.
I played my first game of 8th with my Scion army this weekend against some Tau. Right off the bat, I like how storm troopers finally feel like they're the highly trained operatives they're supposed to be! They seem to really reward you for bringing the right tools for the job.
One trick I found devastating was dropping a 5-man squad with 2 meltas from a Valkyrie. Grav-Chute Insertion restricts you to disembark over 9" away from enemy models, but doesn't restrict your ability to move afterwards (models disembarking can act normally). Furthermore, you only have to roll for casualties if you move more than 20" - the minimum necessary to still be airborne.
My melta squad wrecked a Devilfish on the drop, then tied up the unit of Fire Warriors and Ethereal for the rest of game (even after losing 3 to the ensuing explosion, and not a single dirty Tau dying in the wreckage).
Which one would you pick and why? (Taking both rules or aesthetics into account.)
I'm having trouble deciding ...
Ruleswise, I think it depends on what you need it for. The Valdor is obviously the best one against vehicles due to both higher damage and the -1 to BS, but it is not as flexible and it does worse against monsters. So for this, I guess it depends on what you're usually facing but in general vehicles are more prevalent. I would probably pick the Valdor if I'm just choosing one in a vacuum, but consider I have a lot of Rapier Laser Destroyers and other stuff to kill tanks, so the Heavy Tank gets my vote for this although it is very close.
Aesthetically, I love the Macharius and both the Vulcan and Heavy Tank are on my list of things to buy, right after another platoon of DKoK, some Earthshaker and Medusa Carriages and some other bits and bobs.
Exactly the kind of reply I was hoping for, thanks.
I'm about to order a Malcador Infernus and a DKOK Death Rider Squadron, and only got the budget left for either the Valdor or the Macharius.
I'll probably end up getting the Valdor this time (I don't have any Rapier Laser Destroyers of my own ), but the Macharius is definately on my "to-get-list" in the future.
Speaking about the Malcador Infernus, you (or anyone really) don't happen to have any tips regarding it Aenarian?[/quote
]I don't sorry, but I was going to get either the valdor or the infernus myself next month. Let us know how they play for you when you get them!
Requizen wrote: Yeah I'm wondering if GSC are interesting to put with my Scions. A few Goliaths or Chimaeras full of melee GSC units to rush up the field might be good support for DSing Scion units.
Scions are actually one of the worst units to pair with GSC (en masse, anyhow) because both want to be deployed in reserves. Can't have your whole army do that (RIP 7th ed GSC)
Requizen wrote: Yeah I'm wondering if GSC are interesting to put with my Scions. A few Goliaths or Chimaeras full of melee GSC units to rush up the field might be good support for DSing Scion units.
Scions are actually one of the worst units to pair with GSC (en masse, anyhow) because both want to be deployed in reserves. Can't have your whole army do that (RIP 7th ed GSC)
Hm, just trying to figure out what would be a good pairing for them. I want a melee element - GSC seemed cool for that. But also was looking at things like TWC? They're a bit expensive now though.
vipoid wrote:Oh, I've got a question for you guys:
I'd like to try a DKoK army, but I don't have the rules. If I was to try making one with regular guardsmen, how do you think I could best represent them? (In terms of army composition, loadouts and general strategy.)
Ideally, I'd like to favour infantry over vehicles whenever possible. Is that also feasible?
Depends on what kind of army you'd like. You have the core Siege Regiments, which are basically normal troops complemented by a massive amount of artillery, preferably the Earthshaker or Medusa carriages but most would work depending on what you have. Then there is the Assault Brigade, which is basically Shock Troops designed to quickly break through enemy lines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_troops). The core here would be Grenadiers in Storm Chimeras supported by normal infantry, Death Riders and vehicles (Basilisks, Medusas, Leman Russ or others you might have).
The Death Korps can and does produce armoured regiments, but the infantry and artillery formations are the heart and soul of the Korps, so favouring infantry over vehicles is definitely feasible. In fact, with all the buffs hordes have received, I think infantry-heavy DKoK are in a better place than they've been for years. Remember that you are just a variant of the Imperial Guard, with your troops are more mobile (cannot take heavy weapons in the infantry squads, so no reason to just stand still), better in close combat (WS3+ is universal) and disregard casualties from shooting when taking morale.
If you wanted to represent them with things a normal IG army might have, I would say a lot of infantry, with Basilisks and HWT filling the HS slots, Death Riders or Hellhounds for FA (as they do not use Sentinels) and supporting units (Commissars, Priests, Command Squads with Company Standards) for Elites.
Which one would you pick and why? (Taking both rules or aesthetics into account.)
I'm having trouble deciding ...
Ruleswise, I think it depends on what you need it for. The Valdor is obviously the best one against vehicles due to both higher damage and the -1 to BS, but it is not as flexible and it does worse against monsters. So for this, I guess it depends on what you're usually facing but in general vehicles are more prevalent. I would probably pick the Valdor if I'm just choosing one in a vacuum, but consider I have a lot of Rapier Laser Destroyers and other stuff to kill tanks, so the Heavy Tank gets my vote for this although it is very close.
Aesthetically, I love the Macharius and both the Vulcan and Heavy Tank are on my list of things to buy, right after another platoon of DKoK, some Earthshaker and Medusa Carriages and some other bits and bobs.
Exactly the kind of reply I was hoping for, thanks.
I'm about to order a Malcador Infernus and a DKOK Death Rider Squadron, and only got the budget left for either the Valdor or the Macharius.
I'll probably end up getting the Valdor this time (I don't have any Rapier Laser Destroyers of my own ), but the Macharius is definately on my "to-get-list" in the future.
Speaking about the Malcador Infernus, you (or anyone really) don't happen to have any tips regarding it Aenarian?
Tips? Get it into range and flame on.
It's a beautiful unit able to put out a lot of hits with 2d6 autohits, but it's damage may be a little less than expected (About 4-6 dead marines per turn with Chemical Fuel, 2-4 or so with Flammable Fuel). It's one of the vehicles you need to make a choice with. The Chemical Fuel murders non-vehicles with 1 wound, but usually not much more. The Flammable Fuel deals with Primaris Marines, Monstrous Creatures or Vehicles (the D2 pushes it ahead against targets it cannot overkill), while being decent against infantry, although it is not as good as specialised weapons. You need to choose which one depending on what you face, although with a Valdor I'd gamble on the Chemical Fuel to start with.
If I used it, I would just load it up with Heavy Flamers instead of Heavy Weapons, as it does get -hit from moving and this is one vehicle that wants to get in close, and try to burn everything in my way whilst daring my opponent to charge 2d6-4d6 autohits depending on range. Of course, if it explodes among their army so much better. The main ammunition would vary, but I think Chemical Fuel suits my needs better.
Going to dispute these two points. You should have plenty of mortars lying around from your normal heavy weapons teams so really all you need are 65mm bases and crews. Even buying full crews from bitz sellers for mine it came to about even with the retail cost of a Hydra.
That's quite alot of work to end up "about even" in price.
You also assume that everyone has plenty of heavy weapon team bitz lying around.
5 minutes on Ebay/bitz sites is a lot of work?
Even with me not shopping around/waiting for deals, it was about 55 bucks for 9 mortars. That's almost $100 in Heavy Weapons Teams at retail price and only five dollars more than a Hydra/Wyvern at retail.
As for having enough HWT bitz lying around, I guess if you play mechanized it could be a problem, but any infantry guard player should have more than enough to make 9 mortars.
Which one would you pick and why? (Taking both rules or aesthetics into account.)
I'm having trouble deciding ...
Ruleswise, I think it depends on what you need it for. The Valdor is obviously the best one against vehicles due to both higher damage and the -1 to BS, but it is not as flexible and it does worse against monsters. So for this, I guess it depends on what you're usually facing but in general vehicles are more prevalent. I would probably pick the Valdor if I'm just choosing one in a vacuum, but consider I have a lot of Rapier Laser Destroyers and other stuff to kill tanks, so the Heavy Tank gets my vote for this although it is very close.
Aesthetically, I love the Macharius and both the Vulcan and Heavy Tank are on my list of things to buy, right after another platoon of DKoK, some Earthshaker and Medusa Carriages and some other bits and bobs.
Exactly the kind of reply I was hoping for, thanks.
I'm about to order a Malcador Infernus and a DKOK Death Rider Squadron, and only got the budget left for either the Valdor or the Macharius.
I'll probably end up getting the Valdor this time (I don't have any Rapier Laser Destroyers of my own ), but the Macharius is definately on my "to-get-list" in the future.
Speaking about the Malcador Infernus, you (or anyone really) don't happen to have any tips regarding it Aenarian?
I have two Malcador Infernii - they're helpful "interceptor vehicles" - I used them to support larger tanks (or a larger group of tanks if I hit my head and forgot to bring other superheavies) to good effect. They aren't actually all that impressive when they do fire, but 2d6 autohits with a CP reroll is enough psychological stress to keep people from charging you, in my experience.
Does anyone know if the Death Rider Squadron Commander can issue orders to Death Riders? It seems like that was their intent, yet they didn't adjust anything in the Voice of Command. Meaning, it still only applies to infantry.
I just bought 11 bikes from ramshackle games so debating how to model the 11th bike. Either commissar or squadron commander. I'm leaving towards the commander because I think that 5pt BS 3+ demo charge would be tasty.
Colonel Cross wrote: Does anyone know if the Death Rider Squadron Commander can issue orders to Death Riders? It seems like that was their intent, yet they didn't adjust anything in the Voice of Command. Meaning, it still only applies to infantry.
I just bought 11 bikes from ramshackle games so debating how to model the 11th bike. Either commissar or squadron commander. I'm leaving towards the commander because I think that 5pt BS 3+ demo charge would be tasty.
For the Commisar or Commander, I would go with the latter. The Commisar will only benefit them in CC, and you shouldn't really charge anything you can't kill.
Requizen wrote: Yeah I'm wondering if GSC are interesting to put with my Scions. A few Goliaths or Chimaeras full of melee GSC units to rush up the field might be good support for DSing Scion units.
Scions are actually one of the worst units to pair with GSC (en masse, anyhow) because both want to be deployed in reserves. Can't have your whole army do that (RIP 7th ed GSC)
Hm, just trying to figure out what would be a good pairing for them. I want a melee element - GSC seemed cool for that. But also was looking at things like TWC? They're a bit expensive now though.
Interestingly, if you pair with GSC you can no longer use other Imperium units because you lose that common faction keyword. You can, however pair with Tyranids freely
If you're looking for a melee element, I honestly would look no further than GSC. Cult Ambush Genestealers are probably the best assault unit, pound for pound, in 8th edition. They can do everything and the psychic power support from their patriarch is nothing short of incredible. And he's an amazing force multiplier on top of that. I could go on and on. My point is, as long as you have enough units still on the board, go for it. But you might struggle with that if you previously had a heavy scions element since they all want to deepstrike, right?
Requizen wrote: Yeah I'm wondering if GSC are interesting to put with my Scions. A few Goliaths or Chimaeras full of melee GSC units to rush up the field might be good support for DSing Scion units.
Scions are actually one of the worst units to pair with GSC (en masse, anyhow) because both want to be deployed in reserves. Can't have your whole army do that (RIP 7th ed GSC)
Hm, just trying to figure out what would be a good pairing for them. I want a melee element - GSC seemed cool for that. But also was looking at things like TWC? They're a bit expensive now though.
Interestingly, if you paid with GSC you can no longer use other Imperium units because you lose that common faction keyword. You can, however pair with Tyranids freely
If you're looking for a melee element, I honestly would look no further than GSC. Cult Ambush Genestealers are probably the best assault unit, pound for pound, in 8th edition. They can do everything and the psychic power support from their patriarch is nothing short of incredible. And he's an amazing force multiplier on top of that. I could go on and on. My point is, as long as you have enough units still on the board, go for it. But you might struggle with that if you previously had a heavy scions element since they all want to deepstrike, right?
Yeah that's the downside. So maybe something that starts on the table would be better. Veterans on Bikes seem pretty good, decent midrange dakka and you can kit them out for melee pretty well on the cheap.
Colonel Cross wrote: Does anyone know if the Death Rider Squadron Commander can issue orders to Death Riders? It seems like that was their intent, yet they didn't adjust anything in the Voice of Command. Meaning, it still only applies to infantry.
I just bought 11 bikes from ramshackle games so debating how to model the 11th bike. Either commissar or squadron commander. I'm leaving towards the commander because I think that 5pt BS 3+ demo charge would be tasty.
For the Commisar or Commander, I would go with the latter. The Commisar will only benefit them in CC, and you shouldn't really charge anything you can't kill.
I just bought Imperial Armor the other day, I didn't see that section. Thanks!
Imperial_Wolf wrote: Huge 40k noob here...is all forgeworld 40k stuff legal in regular 40k games?
100% yes. Some places may say no, for a couple reasons, all of which are a little strange IMO. Some think that the forge world stuff is too OP (not categorically true) or that if they allow people to use stuff from forge world, then those people will spend less money at their shop (is categorically true, but if you categorically tell people how to spend their money, they may just categorically spend no money at your store and take their business elsewhere).
All that being said, I've never been to or heard of an actual local store or event that had this policy, and I'm in the greater NY/NJ/PA tri state area. At least 10 hobby shops within 30 miles, and I've been to more events over the years that I can count.
At the biggest tournament level (ITC, NOVA, etc) sometimes individual forge world units do get banned (usually because they are not suited for medium sized games and gamers will try to take them anyway, making a big event less fun for the attendees - I mean who wants to go up against a Revenant Titan in a 2000 point game?) but that's about it.
Tbh, I wouldn't tolerate any place that took this stance. I know that they have to make rent and this is increasingly difficult because some people will just do anything to save a buck by buying from online retailers, but as long as you buy the products that the store actually sells at the store, there's no reason to take an unreasonable stance about what you do with money that the store wasn't getting anyway.
FYI, not hating on people who buy from online retailers - I know that some people just play at their own house or whatever. That's fine. But if you regularly frequent a store and never buy their models...how do you think that's going to work out for the store if everyone did that? And why should everyone but you have to spend extra to help the store pay the bills?
FYI, not hating on people who buy from online retailers - I know that some people just play at their own house or whatever. That's fine. But if you regularly frequent a store and never buy their models...how do you think that's going to work out for the store if everyone did that? And why should everyone but you have to spend extra to help the store pay the bills?
I'm extremely reluctant to answer since this always turns into a flame war, but the basic premise you put forward is why you don't understand shopping online. I happen to play at a local store, but only buy things there I can't get cheaper online, paints, etc. I don't expect anyone else to subsidize me, If the shop closed down tomorrow that would be fine, Me and my friends would just rent out a space to play once a week or build tables at home.
The real question to ask, is of the store owner, "why should I pay you more for the same product I can get cheaper elsewhere"? I've yet to meet a store owner who even tried to earn my money, instead of assuming they're entitled to it, because they happened to open a shop.
I was thinking about purchasing a $135 model, but, I could get it for $88 online, no tax, free shipping. I asked my Flgs owner if he'd consider cutting me a deal on it even a little because of that. He basicly told me to feth off. So now he doesn't get my money.
About to play a 3000pt game versus space wolves and a couple Knights. I played a 1500pt game with him the other day and I wiped him at the end of turn 3. I'm trying something a bit different with this list. I actually have to take some battle tanks since I'm still building the rest of my heavy weapons and autocannons and my missile launchers aren't very optimal against wolves and knights. And I've liked Skitarii since they came out and finally bought some and got them built. Really excited to give them a shot. My plan is to eventually get 2 more dune crawlers and just run a Spearhead of them since I prefer them to our tanks. So definitely 1 more get started box since they only come with 1 of each special weapon :/
I paraphrase of course, but you're right that this is neither here nor there.
What do you guys think of the shadowsword? Looks pretty killy and isn't too expensive. Can even give it flashlights to make it hit on 2's (re-rolling 1's with harker since everyone is a catachan now )
It's a beautiful unit able to put out a lot of hits with 2d6 autohits, but it's damage may be a little less than expected (About 4-6 dead marines per turn with Chemical Fuel, 2-4 or so with Flammable Fuel). It's one of the vehicles you need to make a choice with. The Chemical Fuel murders non-vehicles with 1 wound, but usually not much more. The Flammable Fuel deals with Primaris Marines, Monstrous Creatures or Vehicles (the D2 pushes it ahead against targets it cannot overkill), while being decent against infantry, although it is not as good as specialised weapons. You need to choose which one depending on what you face, although with a Valdor I'd gamble on the Chemical Fuel to start with.
If I used it, I would just load it up with Heavy Flamers instead of Heavy Weapons, as it does get -hit from moving and this is one vehicle that wants to get in close, and try to burn everything in my way whilst daring my opponent to charge 2d6-4d6 autohits depending on range. Of course, if it explodes among their army so much better. The main ammunition would vary, but I think Chemical Fuel suits my needs better.
I have two Malcador Infernii - they're helpful "interceptor vehicles" - I used them to support larger tanks (or a larger group of tanks if I hit my head and forgot to bring other superheavies) to good effect. They aren't actually all that impressive when they do fire, but 2d6 autohits with a CP reroll is enough psychological stress to keep people from charging you, in my experience.
Thanks for the input.
I will play it with 2 additional Heavy Flamers, fits the maingun better and no point in expensive heavy weapons that will only hit on 5+ anyway (since it will most likely keep moving).
Can't wait to field it, I do really have the hots (pun intended) for massive flametanks which tend to explode in a blaze of glory.
I'm extremely reluctant to answer since this always turns into a flame war, but the basic premise you put forward is why you don't understand shopping online. I happen to play at a local store, but only buy things there I can't get cheaper online, paints, etc. I don't expect anyone else to subsidize me, If the shop closed down tomorrow that would be fine, Me and my friends would just rent out a space to play once a week or build tables at home.
The real question to ask, is of the store owner, "why should I pay you more for the same product I can get cheaper elsewhere"? I've yet to meet a store owner who even tried to earn my money, instead of assuming they're entitled to it, because they happened to open a shop.
I was thinking about purchasing a $135 model, but, I could get it for $88 online, no tax, free shipping. I asked my Flgs owner if he'd consider cutting me a deal on it even a little because of that. He basicly told me to feth off. So now he doesn't get my money.
I get both angles, really. The people opposite to you look at it as though it's a form of "tipping" for the people who have this place they can gather to play their games, like of like you do a waitress or bartender or barber. At the same time, I have too many hobbies to be buying $135 mandollies as full price. I scour ebay and buy what I can from there usually. I also exclusively play in people's basements and only go into the LGS if I need something that night, like paint or green stuff for a last minute project.
What's the best way to deal with Tau Stormsurges? Thier 4+ invulnerable save makes them tough to shoot down and thier missile spamm annihilates any heavy weapon teams or scions i bring.
ThePie wrote: What's the best way to deal with Tau Stormsurges? Thier 4+ invulnerable save makes them tough to shoot down and thier missile spamm annihilates any heavy weapon teams or scions i bring.
surround it in melee. It can fall back and shoot, but it cannot move over infantry like an Imperial Knight.
I killed 3 stormsurges with a 3 Stormsword company for the loss of only 1 stormsword which was alpha-struck by the markerlight destroyer missile thingies.
As much as I enjoy how powerful Imperial Guard is at the moment, I feel that it isn't a fun army to fight against anymore.
Fighting a shooty army already isn't fun for a more melee-focused army, but our current firepower just turns it into a one-sided slaughterhouse.
No-one wants to see his beloved Khorne Beserkers in a Rhino first get obliterated by Basilisks and then shot to pieces by infantry squads.
No-one wants their favourite character (often representing the player himself or the reason they play said army) get sniped turn one by two Vindicare Assassins.
I mean, even with taking 'mediocre' units like grenade/missile launchers, sentinels etc, it still was very un-fun for my opponent...
What can I do to help their experience?
I'll been thinking along the same lines. I've used IG a few times now (led by St. Celestine - both because I have a conversion that I really like using and to give myself a more interesting HQ) and all but one of them have been pretty brutal for my opponents.
My army is entirely infantry, save for a few Sentinels (they're the only FA choices I own). I've got infantry squads with flamers in the front and then ones with lascannons and missile launchers behind, with HB HWSs right at the back (along with CCs and Commissars to give them orders and keep them around). Basically, it's just too many bodies for my opponents to kill. I feel especially sorry for my opponents' melee units - which will usually butcher a 47pt screening squad and then get obliterated by massed lasgun and plasma fire. What's more, even if they take out those screening squads, the positioning of my other units basically means that the next squad in line takes their place (so if they kill the flamer squad, the plasma and missile squad will act as a screening unit for the plasma and lascannon squad - preventing most multi-charges). And then of course there are the dreaded MT command squads with plasmaguns. Even with the new faq, I can still afford plenty of them (or just ordinary scions).
Anyway, for my next game, I was wondering about proxying DKOK and trying to play them as flavourfully as possible - taking flamers and meltas (maybe some plasma) and rushing them forward with the intention of getting close and even charging the enemy. Incidentally, Celestine will probably appreciate this change of tactic.
I honestly don't know whether this will work but I'm hoping that it will at least be more fun for my opponents (perhaps for me at well).
People are playing against 8th ed IG as if it was 6th or 7th ed. The ability of infantry to pull themselves out of combat allowing the next line of infantry to open up (while possibly shooting themselves thanks to" get back in the fight") is a lethal combo against 7th ed style of play but I'm sure good competitors will find a way to combat it. That or GW will just re-nerf the orders (maybe bring back the requirement to pass a leadership test.)
The way you play your lines of infantry sounds similar to my own. What distance do you leave between the lines to ensure they second and third lines ca'nt be consolidated into?
People are playing against 8th ed IG as if it was 6th or 7th ed. The ability of infantry to pull themselves out of combat allowing the next line of infantry to open up (while possibly shooting themselves thanks to" get back in the fight") is a lethal combo against 7th ed style of play but I'm sure good competitors will find a way to combat it. That or GW will just re-nerf the orders (maybe bring back the requirement to pass a leadership test.)
To be fair, the Orders are pretty weak already. They offer some nice utility, but I think cheap infantry and solid special weapons are the real killers. For the first time since I started playing IG, the 'drown them in bodies' strategy is actually functional.
The way you play your lines of infantry sounds similar to my own. What distance do you leave between the lines to ensure they second and third lines ca'nt be consolidated into?
Usually the second and third lines are pretty close, with the first line further in front.
The thing is though, I really don't care if an enemy consolidates into my secondary line. I'll take my free attacks on them, Fall Back in my turn and then use Get Back in the Fight to shoot them anyway.
Might not be quite as good as FRFSRK or such, but frankly it rarely matters.
I've avoided any additional weaponry on the tanks and used the mortar team to keep points as low as possible. The idea being Pask will be firing off 23 shots at 2+ and will be able to give "gunners kill on sight" to the two Executioners in the event they decide to supercharge their plasma cannons (I've heard people suggest that Pask can give orders to himself but think thats not really keeping to the spirit of the game.
A competition I'm thinking of entering is 2000pts so I'll be giving Pask two more heavy bolters but was looking at attaching a Techpriest Enginseer at 52pts to the three tanks in order to offset some of the wounds Pask is invariably going to attract. However, for just 45pts I could take 3 astropaths with las pistol who not only could up the tanks armour save to 2+ but also removes cover bonus for 3 different units within 18" of them. (also deny the witch)
My 1500pt build has 13 command dice while the 2000 pt would have 14 meaning at I can reroll 1 failed perils of the warp roll each Psychic phase.
Problem is with the size of my army I'll invariably be going second meaning I won't be able to give Pask and the two other tanks a 2+ until its probably too late. Any suggestions?
Why bring Leman Russes when you can take a Supreme Command Detachment with Pask + Commanders, getting that sweet 3+ to hit? Bring a cheap HQ to get the HWS in a separate Spearhead.
See the thing with the Executioner.... an overcharged shot only get -1ap compared to the regular Battle Cannon and 2 damage instead of D3.
And following that, its more expensive and has only half its range.
Even with re-roll 1's, you re still gonna damage youraelf at least twice per game. Is that really worth taking over a regular battle cannon?
The executioner is definitely underwhelming currently. There's no reason for it to cost more than a battle cannon when it has less strength, the same number of shots, and less damage. Or the same strength, less damage, and a chance of lopping off half your wounds (a chance that can severely punish you for rolling well on your number of shots).
The executioner either needs to drop drastically in price, or it needs to be buffed. One good buff would be to just make its rate of fire 3d3 or 3d6 to reflect its previous incarnation's three small blasts. Spewing so many shots would make up for the lower strength, so you could happily just fire non-overcharged so you don't have to worry about blowing yourself up. It would also of course make firing overcharged a huge gamble (you're likely firing more than 6 shots, good luck not getting any 1s!) that has a potentially huge payoff (tons of S8 AP-3 hits).
Requizen wrote: Why bring Leman Russes when you can take a Supreme Command Detachment with Pask + Commanders, getting that sweet 3+ to hit? Bring a cheap HQ to get the HWS in a separate Spearhead.
I never thought of that, cool idea.
I'm tight on points though and upgrading the two Russes to commanders would be 70 more points versus the 27 I would save by not "having" to take the HWS. Also the two commanders wouldn't be able to give their tank orders to each other.
Doctoralex wrote: See the thing with the Executioner.... an overcharged shot only get -1ap compared to the regular Battle Cannon and 2 damage instead of D3.
And following that, its more expensive and has only half its range.
Even with re-roll 1's, you re still gonna damage youraelf at least twice per game. Is that really worth taking over a regular battle cannon?
The executioner is cheaper than the battle cannon (160pts vrs 162pts) and the mathhammer shows that while its is slightly worse in standard mode than the battle cannon, when overcharged its better.
Pasks ability to give the both the Leman Russes a re-roll of 1 would further reduce the possibility of a screw up.
The shorter range is a pain but the idea would be to keep the three tanks together (in range of Pasks orders and either the Enginseer or the three Astropaths to buff them) and since my Pask is rocking the Punisher gatling cannon they're going to be within the 36" range.
ross-128 wrote: The executioner is definitely underwhelming currently. There's no reason for it to cost more than a battle cannon when it has less strength, the same number of shots, and less damage. Or the same strength, less damage, and a chance of lopping off half your wounds (a chance that can severely punish you for rolling well on your number of shots).
The executioner either needs to drop drastically in price, or it needs to be buffed. One good buff would be to just make its rate of fire 3d3 or 3d6 to reflect its previous incarnation's three small blasts. Spewing so many shots would make up for the lower strength, so you could happily just fire non-overcharged so you don't have to worry about blowing yourself up. It would also of course make firing overcharged a huge gamble (you're likely firing more than 6 shots, good luck not getting any 1s!) that has a potentially huge payoff (tons of S8 AP-3 hits).
I know it boosts the cost to silly levels, but a Salamander Command Vehicle would make an executioner immune to overheat when stationary, right?
ross-128 wrote: The executioner is definitely underwhelming currently. There's no reason for it to cost more than a battle cannon when it has less strength, the same number of shots, and less damage. Or the same strength, less damage, and a chance of lopping off half your wounds (a chance that can severely punish you for rolling well on your number of shots).
The executioner either needs to drop drastically in price, or it needs to be buffed. One good buff would be to just make its rate of fire 3d3 or 3d6 to reflect its previous incarnation's three small blasts. Spewing so many shots would make up for the lower strength, so you could happily just fire non-overcharged so you don't have to worry about blowing yourself up. It would also of course make firing overcharged a huge gamble (you're likely firing more than 6 shots, good luck not getting any 1s!) that has a potentially huge payoff (tons of S8 AP-3 hits).
I know it boosts the cost to silly levels, but a Salamander Command Vehicle would make an executioner immune to overheat when stationary, right?
It would, but I think I would prefer an array of 5 searchlights over a 100 point Salamander (75 base, 8 heavy bolter, 17 heavy flamer). The redundancy provided by the searchlights makes them less vulnerable to being sniped despite each one being more fragile, and the other lights can support other units while they're up.
Also, while discussing the FW buff units with a friend, they pointed out that I had overlooked something about the Salamander and Trojan: their aura only applies to a SINGLE model within their range. Don't know how I kept skipping over that word every time I read it, maybe my brain just refused to accept it until someone else pointed it out to me, but there it is.
This unfortunately means that building a firebase around a Salamander and a Trojan doesn't work, and it makes the searchlight the best buff option by far in my opinion. It works on any <REGIMENT> unit instead of only vehicles, it can support a friendly model anywhere on the board as long as it has an enemy within a very generous 48" to target, the auras can only affect a single unit anyway, and its dirt-cheap price allows you to build a good amount of redundancy into the network.
A Trojan might be worth taking to support a Baneblade variant though. If you can only buff one unit, that unit might as well be a Baneblade. And unlike the Salamander, the Trojan enjoys a monopoly on its buff type: it's the only AM unit (that I know of) that can provide full re-rolls to a vehicle. However, Harker beats it out for anything that is rolling on 2+ (whether baseline or due to buffs) because at that point, his buff becomes equivalent and he's about half the price. And of course, Harker beats it if you want to buff multiple units because while his buff may be weaker, it applies to his entire aura instead of just one unit.
But yes. You can make plasma cannons immune to exploding with a bit of support.
Requizen wrote: Why bring Leman Russes when you can take a Supreme Command Detachment with Pask + Commanders, getting that sweet 3+ to hit? Bring a cheap HQ to get the HWS in a separate Spearhead.
Well for one you can't take all Leman Russes with a Commander or Pask. The Annihilator, Conqueror, Stygies Vanquisher and Mars-Alpha Vanquisher remain out of reach for now.
Just a small detail of course, the Commander deals a ~33% more damage while costing ~22% more at most so it's usually a decent proposition.
Here is a question, do you think that RAI Tank commanders should be able to ride in Annihilators and Conquerors, and their exclusion from taking these tanks RAW is an oversight? I'm really wishing for a BS 3+ Annihilator.
Just finished my 3000pt game against space wolves with 2 knights. I held 5/6 OBJs by the end of turn 4. He only had 1 wolf claw, Bjorn, and a Vindicare left.
I managed to seize and then roll poorly enough to only kill a predator turn 1 and knock a knight and land raider down a level. With 14 weapons S9 or more I was expecting a better showing. Plus 2 battle cannons and all the deep striking plasma.
All I know is that I had Harker buffing a blob of troops, a Manticore and a Basilisk, and Yarrick buffing troops, the Vendetta, and 3 tanks. Which allowed Pask to issue Strike & Shroud. It felt wrong. Haha.
Requizen wrote: Why bring Leman Russes when you can take a Supreme Command Detachment with Pask + Commanders, getting that sweet 3+ to hit? Bring a cheap HQ to get the HWS in a separate Spearhead.
Only issue I have with taking pask and tank commanders is obviously pask can order himself and the other tank commanders but those other tank commanders don't have russes to give orders to unless you take more. With how expensive russes are I have a hard time taking more than 3. But what I'm getting at is, the tank commander upgrade is 30pts more than a standard russ so is bs +3 worth that if you're also not ordering anyone?
Otto von Bludd wrote: Here is a question, do you think that RAI Tank commanders should be able to ride in Annihilators and Conquerors, and their exclusion from taking these tanks RAW is an oversight? I'm really wishing for a BS 3+ Annihilator.
Intended? I have no idea. The Krieg Assault Brigade could make any of its Leman Russ tanks into a Forward Command Tank, granting it BS4 and some nifty rules in previous editions, and it included both the Conqueror, Annhilator and all three kinds of Vanquishers (Mars-Alpha, Stygies and normal one). The Armoured Battlegroup could make any non-Demolisher variant (i.e, not the Demolisher, Executioner or Punisher) into a Company Command Tank or Commissar Tank. But all three were still different units from the codex version, which could never take any Forge World tank (as, even though IA1 2nd stated that Annihilator and Conqueror ones could be taken as parts of a codex LR Squadron, the TC had to choose one from pg 102 of the codex).
If and when we get rules for ABG or other FW Tank Commanders, I believe they will have the option to take Conquerors, Annihilators or Vanquisher variants and that they were just omitted for space right now. Of course, adding a rule stating that TC could take them to the unit entries right now would have been a solution to both, but I don't think they actually intended to add that kind of rule to any of the tanks in Index Astra Militarum. It could just have been an omission but if they just copy-pasted rules from previous publications then it was probably not.
Nonetheless, all the errors in the Index makes it hard to discern RAI and RAW. I would have no problem with anyone running either as a tank commander, if they just increased the points cost of the Conqueror by about 25-30 points.
I've not got a chance to field my ABG in 8th yet. After looking over the rules this is the list I came up with using DKoK and Tanks.
Spearhead Detachment:
HQ-
Field Marshal (DKoK) Bolter + Power sword
Tank commander (Vanquisher tank, stubber, heavy bolters x3)
Troops-
DKoK storm squad with plasma x2 in storm chimera
Heavy support
DKoK Heavy weapon team Missile Launcher x3 in Storm chimera
Hydra with heavy flamer
Mars-Alpha Conqueror battle tanks Storm bolter, lascannon and heavy bolter x2 (Squad of 3)
Mars-Alpha Demolishers battle tank Storm bolter lascannon
Super heavy Aux:
Stormsword with 2x lascannons and 2x heavy bolters.
Since most fights are fought at close range for tanks, I decided to go with stormbolters instead heavy stubbers to benefit from the rapid fire. In addition, running conqueror style tanks gives me a second stormbolter. Mean at 24" range 4 shots, 12" range 8 shots. The Conqueror battle tanks are the way to go in this edition. Used to be you didn't use them because it was a small blast and not a large blast like its brother LR-BT. Now the only difference between the two is the LR-CQ has a reduced range, but even then its 48" with a 24" Stormbolter. It makes for a great close range to medium range tank. Demolisher is in the list just because I have one on hand for the army. Same for the heavy weapon team. They have proven themselves before. Hydra is my anti-air (fly keyword) unit.
Then we come to the big boy. I usually take some form of a LoW in my tank army to give it the extra muscle it needs. Normally this is a baneblade. After looking over the rules for the baneblade, I was not impressed. So looked into some of the other variants and found the Stormsword. Stormsword siege cannon is 36" range, str 10 -4 d6 damage. Roll 2 dice, pick the highest for number of shots. Re-roll 1's for damage. This seems like a win win. There is a FW version of this model, but the rules are exactly the same.
What do you guys think of this for a beginner friendly starter list?
Supreme Command Detatchment
HQ
Elysian Company Commander with Plasma Pistol (Deepstriking) - 45 points
Elysian Company Commander with Plasma Pistol (Deepstriking) - 45 points
Elysian Company Commander with Plasma Pistol (Deepstriking) - 45 points
Elysian Company Commander with Plasma Pistol (Deepstriking) - 45 points
Elysian Company Commander with Plasma Pistol (Deepstriking) - 45 points
Elites
Elysian Command Squad with 4 Veterans with 4 Plasma Guns (Deepstriking) - 56 Points
Dedicated Transport
Taurox Prime with Two Hot-shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter, Taurox Gatling Cannon - 98 Points
Taurox Prime with Two Hot-shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter, Taurox Gatling Cannon - 98 Points
Vanguard Detachment
HQ Elysian Company Commander with Plasma Pistol (Deepstriking) - 45 points
Elysian Company Commander with Bolt Pistol (Deepstriking) - 41 points
Elites
Elysian Command Squad with 4 Veterans with 4 Plasma Guns (Deepstriking) - 56 Points
Elysian Command Squad with 4 Veterans with 4 Plasma Guns (Deepstriking) - 56 Points
Elysian Command Squad with 4 Veterans with 4 Plasma Guns (Deepstriking) - 56 Points
Elysian Command Squad with 4 Veterans with 4 Plasma Guns (Deepstriking) - 56 Points
Elysian Command Squad with 4 Veterans with 4 Plasma Guns (Deepstriking) - 56 Points
Elysian Command Squad with 4 Veterans with 4 Plasma Guns (Deepstriking) - 56 Points
Heavy Support
x3 Sabre Weapon Platforms with Spotlight - 60 Points
x3 Sabre Weapon Platforms with Spotlight - 60 Points
Dedicated Transport
Taurox Prime with Two Hot-shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter, Taurox Gatling Cannon - 98 Points
Taurox Prime with Two Hot-shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter, Taurox Gatling Cannon - 98 Points
Taurox Prime with Two Hot-shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter, Taurox Gatling Cannon - 98 Points
Taurox Prime with Two Hot-shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter, Taurox Gatling Cannon - 98 Points
Taurox Prime with Two Hot-shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter, Taurox Gatling Cannon - 98 Points
Taurox Prime with Two Hot-shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter, Taurox Gatling Cannon - 98 Points
Taurox Prime with Two Hot-shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter, Taurox Gatling Cannon - 98 Points
Taurox Prime with Two Hot-shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter, Taurox Gatling Cannon - 98 Points
Taurox Prime with Two Hot-shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter, Taurox Gatling Cannon - 98 Points
Taurox Prime with Two Hot-shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter, Taurox Gatling Cannon - 98 Points
- 1999 Points (14 On the field / 14 Deepstriking) (5 CPs)
Elysian Commanders can issue 2 orders without sacrificing their guns like Tempestus Primes. They also come with a 5++ stock
Elysian's Plasmaguns for some reason have 3 damage when overcharged and 2 damage standard. Pretty sure it's a typo but it's printed that way about 15 times throughout the book. Makes them insane considering they're cheaper than Tempestus Scions.
The Taurox comfortably kill 115 Conscripts in 1 turn. The Elysians using the Spotlights comfortably kill 6 Stormravens in a single turn.
@Zande4: What about this list is "beginner friendly" and "starter", or where you being sarcastic? If so, disregard the rest of my post.
This is about as spammy and boring as it gets. 12 (!) completely identical vehicles (which will cost about 500 Euros by themselves), 28 Plasma gunners (have fun finding the bitz for those and converting them, beginner!), and 6 models that are OOP and need to be converted or picked up off ebay or forums. Plus a bunch of identical characters. Okay, I'm being unfair. One has a bolt pistol.
Soooooo... not commenting on efficacy or anything, but if that is your idea of what a beginner should get, I'd recommend some reflection...
Aldaris wrote: @Zande4: What about this list is "beginner friendly" and "starter", or where you being sarcastic? If so, disregard the rest of my post.
This is about as spammy and boring as it gets. 12 (!) completely identical vehicles (which will cost about 500 Euros by themselves), 28 Plasma gunners (have fun finding the bitz for those and converting them, beginner!), and 6 models that are OOP and need to be converted or picked up off ebay or forums. Plus a bunch of identical characters. Okay, I'm being unfair. One has a bolt pistol.
Soooooo... not commenting on efficacy or anything, but if that is your idea of what a beginner should get, I'd recommend some reflection...
Does anyone actually have the Sabre Searchlight models? If so could you please post some measurements. I want to build some but the pictures available only help to a degree.
That's an amusing list, though there is one small problem with it: Elysians can't take searchlights or Tauroxes. Also, Tauroxes are locked to the Militarum Tempestus regiment, which searchlights can't take.
So the searchlights can't support anything in that list. In fact, both Elysians and MT can't use any of the shooting-buff units at all except for their own Commanders and Yarrick. Harker, Pask, Sabers, Salamanders, and Trojans are all off-limits to them. Though you can at least get away with bringing the Tauroxes by running the army under the AM banner, since you're not actually using them as transports their different Regiment won't cause a problem there.
Yeah, I was disappointed when I found out Elysians couldn't take Saber batteries (even though they can take Tarantula batteries). They would have been so great together.
Glitcha wrote: I've not got a chance to field my ABG in 8th yet. After looking over the rules this is the list I came up with using DKoK and Tanks.
Spearhead Detachment:
HQ-
Field Marshal (DKoK) Bolter + Power sword
Tank commander (Vanquisher tank, stubber, heavy bolters x3)
Troops-
DKoK storm squad with plasma x2 in storm chimera
Heavy support
DKoK Heavy weapon team Missile Launcher x3 in Storm chimera
Hydra with heavy flamer
Mars-Alpha Conqueror battle tanks Storm bolter, lascannon and heavy bolter x2 (Squad of 3)
Mars-Alpha Demolishers battle tank Storm bolter lascannon
Super heavy Aux:
Stormsword with 2x lascannons and 2x heavy bolters.
Since most fights are fought at close range for tanks, I decided to go with stormbolters instead heavy stubbers to benefit from the rapid fire. In addition, running conqueror style tanks gives me a second stormbolter. Mean at 24" range 4 shots, 12" range 8 shots. The Conqueror battle tanks are the way to go in this edition. Used to be you didn't use them because it was a small blast and not a large blast like its brother LR-BT. Now the only difference between the two is the LR-CQ has a reduced range, but even then its 48" with a 24" Stormbolter. It makes for a great close range to medium range tank. Demolisher is in the list just because I have one on hand for the army. Same for the heavy weapon team. They have proven themselves before. Hydra is my anti-air (fly keyword) unit.
Then we come to the big boy. I usually take some form of a LoW in my tank army to give it the extra muscle it needs. Normally this is a baneblade. After looking over the rules for the baneblade, I was not impressed. So looked into some of the other variants and found the Stormsword. Stormsword siege cannon is 36" range, str 10 -4 d6 damage. Roll 2 dice, pick the highest for number of shots. Re-roll 1's for damage. This seems like a win win. There is a FW version of this model, but the rules are exactly the same.
Thoughts?
The Vanquisher is terrible and should never be used. A Battle Cannon is on average more efficient, although the Vanquisher does have a probability of sometimes dealing a lot of damage in a single shot (and usually nothing at all).
RAW the Mars-Alpha Conqueror does not benefit from the Grinding Advance rule (but this is most definitely an oversight).
The Stormsword isn't very good actually. 2d6 pick highest means that you go from 3.5 to 4.5 shots on average, the re-roll ones only ever gives a small benefit. Problem is, only half of its shots will ever hit a target because of its bad ballistic skill, further worsened by the fact that it gets BS5+ when moving, so your big cannon will usually have 2-3 hits. This just isn't good enough on most targets for 400-500 points of models, and usually goes for every one. The Shadowsword has the benefit having almost as many shots, a better chance to wound and a much better chance of crippling a vehicle.
The Shadowsword also has the benefit of being an excellent insurance policy against enemy superheavies, and a prime beneficiary of single-target buffs.
The Stormsword isn't the best, but it at least comes with the advantage of being 40 points cheaper than the Shadowsword. Along with the Banesword, it's the cheapest of the Baneblade-chassis options.
If you're going to go with the Stormsword, though, you should really try out the heavy flamer sponsons. Ideally, shell out for the full set. This bloats the price up significantly, but it's hard to overstate how ridiculous it is to be able to pump out 8d6 heavy flamer hits in shooting, and in overwatch, even while engaged!
KestrelM1 wrote: The Stormsword isn't the best, but it at least comes with the advantage of being 40 points cheaper than the Shadowsword. Along with the Banesword, it's the cheapest of the Baneblade-chassis options.
If you're going to go with the Stormsword, though, you should really try out the heavy flamer sponsons. Ideally, shell out for the full set. This bloats the price up significantly, but it's hard to overstate how ridiculous it is to be able to pump out 8d6 heavy flamer hits in shooting, and in overwatch, even while engaged!
Thing is, 390 vs 430 points isn't that much for a better unit at this level. 40 points don't really do much.
A Superheavy costs ~400-500 points. You will want to make that back within at least 5 turns. You will almost never make that back by just shooting at normal infantry. No, you want to fire at expensive things. Shooting at things with high armour but also invulnerable saves (i.e., a Terminator), your Stormsword can expect to kill one or two models a turn. Those models will have to be worth almost 100 points to make it worth it, which might not happen often. Against vehicles, you can usually degrade them once or twice, but you will rarely outright destroy them. The same goes for monsters.
Now, a Shadowsword will deal less damage to infantry because it usually fires less shots (1D6 vs 2D6 pick highest is about 1 shot) and the re-roll 1s to wound matters more when you have a 2+ to wound, so it becomes worse at that. However, a Shadowsword will deal almost 70% more damage against vehicles or monsters because its S16 wounds almost everything on a 2+, it ignores virtually all armor saves in game and it has double the expected damage on an unsaved wound, meaning that even one unsaved wound might hurt those big baddies. If you roll a 4 for the number of shots, you could expect to blow up a Leman Russ!
I've disregarded all sponsons and range differences, but the sponsons should be equal unless you're really short of points. The Shadowsword benefits from a much higher range on its main gun, also meaning it doesn't have to reposition itself as often (although it doesn't synergize well with secondary weapons), and it has some nifty rules when you fight Titanic enemies. But this is why I think the Shadowsword is the good "cheap" option when choosing your superheavy.
I'd use that as a 'budget' Shadowsword: D6 shots (meh, probably needs a Command re-roll) But S14 means you are gonna be wounding everything on 2+ apart from the heaviest enemies.
AP-4 means the enemy will either get a 6+ armour save or their invuln save. AP- 5 is kind of overkill IMO.
And then it has it's ace in the hole: Damage numbers of 1 or 2 always count as at least 3.
On top of that, it sports a wooping 140 range. Though overkill, you won't have to worry about range ever.
I'd use that as a 'budget' Shadowsword: D6 shots (meh, probably needs a Command re-roll) But S14 means you are gonna be wounding everything on 2+ apart from the heaviest enemies. AP-4 means the enemy will either get a 6+ armour save or their invuln save. AP- 5 is kind of overkill IMO.
And then it has it's ace in the hole: Damage numbers of 1 or 2 always count as at least 3.
On top of that, it sports a wooping 140 range. Though overkill, you won't have to worry about range ever.
Thing is, you might face those T8+, and then it will matter. The special damage rule also doesn't do much, changing your possible rolls from [1,2,3,4,5,6] to [3,3,3,4,5,6] or from 3.5 to 4 average. What it does is that it reduces the worst case scenario, but considering that 2D6 is worse in 1/36 cases (roll of 2), has a 1/18 chance to deal 3 damage compared to 1/2, 1/12 to deal 4 instead of 1/6, 1/9 to deal 5 instead of 1/6 and 5/36 to deal 6 instead of 1/6, and then 21/36 to deal more damage than the Banesword ever could.
If we're talking about units costing more than 400 points, I don't see why we would need to talk about "budget options". Why would you save 40 points to get a worse unit, when you're already paying 400-450 points?
The Stormsword really isn't that bad. I have a company of 3, and ran them against 3 Stormsurges and pretty much won easily.
The 2d6+pick the highest is usually a 5 or 6, I had one roll (out of three tanks firing for six turns, so 18 shots) that was a 4. The rest were 5s or 6s. My Baneblade company usually fired between 4 and 10 shots each, so sometimes it would spike and sometimes it would whiff.
The 2d6+ picking the highest, better statline, and then damage re-roll on a 1 made the stormsword WAY more consistent than my baneblades, and for cheaper to boot.
Though if I had to pick 'best superheavy' it would be the Stormhammer because it's way better than the rest at the Stormsword price point.
My stormhammers have 2 battlecannons, 1 Stormsword Cannon (essentially) that re-rolls all to hit rolls, 4 lascannons, and 4 heavy bolters for like 550 odd points. It's insane.
Glitcha wrote: I've not got a chance to field my ABG in 8th yet. After looking over the rules this is the list I came up with using DKoK and Tanks.
Spearhead Detachment:
HQ-
Field Marshal (DKoK) Bolter + Power sword
Tank commander (Vanquisher tank, stubber, heavy bolters x3)
Troops-
DKoK storm squad with plasma x2 in storm chimera
Heavy support
DKoK Heavy weapon team Missile Launcher x3 in Storm chimera
Hydra with heavy flamer
Mars-Alpha Conqueror battle tanks Storm bolter, lascannon and heavy bolter x2 (Squad of 3)
Mars-Alpha Demolishers battle tank Storm bolter lascannon
Super heavy Aux:
Stormsword with 2x lascannons and 2x heavy bolters.
Since most fights are fought at close range for tanks, I decided to go with stormbolters instead heavy stubbers to benefit from the rapid fire. In addition, running conqueror style tanks gives me a second stormbolter. Mean at 24" range 4 shots, 12" range 8 shots. The Conqueror battle tanks are the way to go in this edition. Used to be you didn't use them because it was a small blast and not a large blast like its brother LR-BT. Now the only difference between the two is the LR-CQ has a reduced range, but even then its 48" with a 24" Stormbolter. It makes for a great close range to medium range tank. Demolisher is in the list just because I have one on hand for the army. Same for the heavy weapon team. They have proven themselves before. Hydra is my anti-air (fly keyword) unit.
Then we come to the big boy. I usually take some form of a LoW in my tank army to give it the extra muscle it needs. Normally this is a baneblade. After looking over the rules for the baneblade, I was not impressed. So looked into some of the other variants and found the Stormsword. Stormsword siege cannon is 36" range, str 10 -4 d6 damage. Roll 2 dice, pick the highest for number of shots. Re-roll 1's for damage. This seems like a win win. There is a FW version of this model, but the rules are exactly the same.
Thoughts?
Are Leman Russ Conquerors with storm bolter really 20pts less than a regular Leman Russ with a Battle Cannon and heavy bolter?
For tournament games (and therefor smaller board) they seem an obvious choice.
A Leman Russ BT with a Battle Cannon and Heavy Bolter is 162 pts.
A Leman Russ Conqueror with Conqueror Battle Cannon, Co-axial Storm Bolter and Heavy Bolter is 143.
Yes, it's an obvious choice and a classic case of FW underpricing. WIth that said, the regular LR with a Battle Cannon isn't really worth 162 pts to begin with.
MinscS2 wrote: A Leman Russ BT with a Battle Cannon and Heavy Bolter is 162 pts.
A Leman Russ Conqueror with Conqueror Battle Cannon, Co-axial Storm Bolter and Heavy Bolter is 143.
Yes, it's an obvious choice and a classic case of FW underpricing. WIth that said, the regular LR with a Battle Cannon isn't really worth 162 pts to begin with.
Yeah in this case the Conqueror is fine and the regular Russ is nonsense.
Yes, it's an obvious choice and a classic case of FW underpricing. WIth that said, the regular LR with a Battle Cannon isn't really worth 162 pts to begin with.
Actually, it's more likely a mistake. The Mars-Alpha Leman Russ can also take a Conqueror cannon, but it costs 165 and has the same base hull cost as the normal Leman Russ, just like all Mars-Alpha Leman Russes. I don't subscribe to them just underpricing that particular one when they also have ten other variants they didn't drop the cost of.
Also, fun fact: the R&H Conqueror from Vraks 2nd ed. was 110 points base.
So that this gets me 3x10 squads with 4 plasmaguns and 1x10 squad of 4 meltaguns, with two sergeants with power swords to swap in should I choose to.
The reason why I'm putting this here and not in P&M is because I want to know what the most reasonable options to give the odd man out are. Since I have complete squads, the obvious choices are:
Medipack in case I want to run one as a command squad (and for some reason think a medipack makes more sense than a 4th weapon)
- or -
Another Sarge so that I could run 3x10 and 2x5 all with chainswords, or some other combination if I wanted to add the power sword guys.
- or -
Voxcaster in case I want to go that route, but I don't have anyone else with a voxcaster, so it's kind of worthless. Also: fixed pewter backpacks probably aren't fun to try to cut off.
Note that these are mostly kasrkin with the gaps filled in by Cadian Hazardous Teams, so their loadout is largely nonnegotiable, since I'm not up for heavily cutting up irreplaceable pewter models.
So that this gets me 3x10 squads with 4 plasmaguns and 1x10 squad of 4 meltaguns, with two sergeants with power swords to swap in should I choose to.
The reason why I'm putting this here and not in P&M is because I want to know what the most reasonable options to give the odd man out are. Since I have complete squads, the obvious choices are:
Medipack in case I want to run one as a command squad (and for some reason think a medipack makes more sense than a 4th weapon)
- or -
Another Sarge so that I could run 3x10 and 2x5 all with chainswords, or some other combination if I wanted to add the power sword guys.
- or -
Voxcaster in case I want to go that route, but I don't have anyone else with a voxcaster, so it's kind of worthless. Also: fixed pewter backpacks probably aren't fun to try to cut off.
Note that these are mostly kasrkin with the gaps filled in by Cadian Hazardous Teams, so their loadout is largely nonnegotiable, since I'm not up for heavily cutting up irreplaceable pewter models.
If you've only got 1 tempestor prime, I say convert up another one. Otherwise, I say put on a HSVG, because I'm betting that plasma guns will eventually get a point increase as they're a bit too good right now. The HSVG is almost as good point per wound as a plasma gun on standard fire, so I think its a good option for the future.
My next game I'm going to split my squads up so that all the HSLGs are in one squad, which will then greatly benefit from FRFSRF, and then keep the plasma guns for command squads. I'm not sure how it will work out, but I think I'd prefer to keep the Prime with the HSLGs squad. I'll put the 10 men in a Taurox Prime, and grav schute the Tempestor Prime in when I unload them to give them an order. The command squad are essentially suicide bombers, so there's no point sending the Prime with them in my opinion.
I'm converting my Primes from the greatcoat and some other Cadian bits, so I don't need him to make another one of those. I probably should have mentioned that somewhere beforehand.
Thing about plasma is that even if they beef up the points, they'd probably have to go up to, like, 20 per gun before it would get to the point where they weren't worth spamming. Supercharge is just TOO good as is.
daedalus wrote: I'm converting my Primes from the greatcoat and some other Cadian bits, so I don't need him to make another one of those. I probably should have mentioned that somewhere beforehand.
Thing about plasma is that even if they beef up the points, they'd probably have to go up to, like, 20 per gun before it would get to the point where they weren't worth spamming. Supercharge is just TOO good as is.
If I was the one responsible for nerfing it (not that I want to be, hah), I'd change the Plasma Gun's range across the board to 18". This would mean it would no longer rapid fire on a deep strike. And at that point I think its mostly fixed. Most people would probably go back to using melta guns for their deep strike units, while plasma guns would stay on troops in transports. I think that would be an nice way to diversify their utility. Right now Meltaguns are just too niche.
I'd like some input guys. I'm about to convert my own Death Riders, to include a Squadron Commander. What loadout do you think would work best on the squadron commander or SGTs? I don't like the idea of only a lance, on the commander at least, since they can only use it on the charge. I'm thinking give him a plasma pistol and a Power Maul (although I hate the look of mauls :/ )
Colonel Cross wrote: I'd like some input guys. I'm about to convert my own Death Riders, to include a Squadron Commander. What loadout do you think would work best on the squadron commander or SGTs? I don't like the idea of only a lance, on the commander at least, since they can only use it on the charge. I'm thinking give him a plasma pistol and a Power Maul (although I hate the look of mauls :/ )
Model the maul as a Polo hammer?
Speaking of Rough Riders, what is the accepted base size? Since they're unavailable right now I'm thinking of converting up some from my various plastic detritus.
Colonel Cross wrote: I'd like some input guys. I'm about to convert my own Death Riders, to include a Squadron Commander. What loadout do you think would work best on the squadron commander or SGTs? I don't like the idea of only a lance, on the commander at least, since they can only use it on the charge. I'm thinking give him a plasma pistol and a Power Maul (although I hate the look of mauls :/ )
Model the maul as a Polo hammer?
Speaking of Rough Riders, what is the accepted base size? Since they're unavailable right now I'm thinking of converting up some from my various plastic detritus.
Interesting question because my original Rough Riders are on rectangular bases, bike units now have those oval kind of bases, and the Forge World Death Riders come on round bases. So what I would say is, choose whatever base you prefer!
Colonel Cross wrote: I'd like some input guys. I'm about to convert my own Death Riders, to include a Squadron Commander. What loadout do you think would work best on the squadron commander or SGTs? I don't like the idea of only a lance, on the commander at least, since they can only use it on the charge. I'm thinking give him a plasma pistol and a Power Maul (although I hate the look of mauls :/ )
argonak wrote: Speaking of Rough Riders, what is the accepted base size? Since they're unavailable right now I'm thinking of converting up some from my various plastic detritus.
I'd go with 40mm round bases. That is what the FW models come with. I tried bike bases for my conversions but they look horrible and non-round bases lead to all sorts of gaming problems.
Colonel Cross wrote: I'd like some input guys. I'm about to convert my own Death Riders, to include a Squadron Commander. What loadout do you think would work best on the squadron commander or SGTs? I don't like the idea of only a lance, on the commander at least, since they can only use it on the charge. I'm thinking give him a plasma pistol and a Power Maul (although I hate the look of mauls :/ )
Demolition Charge,
Haha that is a no brainer! It is tough to get BS3+ demo charges, so definitely doing that one!
Trickstick wrote:
argonak wrote: Speaking of Rough Riders, what is the accepted base size? Since they're unavailable right now I'm thinking of converting up some from my various plastic detritus.
I'd go with 40mm round bases. That is what the FW models come with. I tried bike bases for my conversions but they look horrible and non-round bases lead to all sorts of gaming problems.
argonak wrote: Speaking of Rough Riders, what is the accepted base size? Since they're unavailable right now I'm thinking of converting up some from my various plastic detritus.
I'd go with 40mm round bases. That is what the FW models come with. I tried bike bases for my conversions but they look horrible and non-round bases lead to all sorts of gaming problems.
Why did the bike bases look terrible?
Well, you can see how they compare. The round base is a bit smaller than 40 mm, maybe 37 mm, but it should give you an idea. Also beware, it's an enormous picture.
Well, you can see how they compare. The round base is a bit smaller than 40 mm, maybe 37 mm, but it should give you an idea. Also beware, it's an enormous picture.
Spoiler:
Off-topic, but did you know that you can make it smaller by adding an 'l' or 'h' to the end of link (before the '.jpeg')?
Spoiler:
That aside, what sort of gaming problems do the non-round bases lead to?
That aside, what sort of gaming problems do the non-round bases lead to?
Historically, vehicles had some cheesy things you could do with turning the vehicle and getting another inch or so of movement, however, that's been inadvertently resolved by the 8th edition Scooty Puff Junior vehicle movement.
I bring the above up because it also affected things like the Vendetta and other flyers. 5th ed got weird with the stuff you could and couldn't do with them. See "Is the ruler on the table?"
Well, you can see how they compare. The round base is a bit smaller than 40 mm, maybe 37 mm, but it should give you an idea. Also beware, it's an enormous picture.
Spoiler:
Off-topic, but did you know that you can make it smaller by adding an 'l' or 'h' to the end of link (before the '.jpeg')?
Spoiler:
That aside, what sort of gaming problems do the non-round bases lead to?
vipoid wrote: That aside, what sort of gaming problems do the non-round bases lead to?
Being longer than normal bases, it was a lot easier to get within 2" of combat and get more models fighting. Also, they were bigger for the purpose of blasts. I also hate having a model moving sideways towards the enemy because it gives some sort of tactical advantage, which having a wider unit could do. You still see that with people moving vehicles sideways, which I loathe with a fiery passion.
Well, considering that FW is part of GW, I believe the Warlord Battle Titan would be classified as the best titanic unit in that it can beat every other titanic unit.
Aenarian wrote: Well, considering that FW is part of GW, I believe the Warlord Battle Titan would be classified as the best titanic unit in that it can beat every other titanic unit.
Aenarian wrote: Well, considering that FW is part of GW, I believe the Warlord Battle Titan would be classified as the best titanic unit in that it can beat every other titanic unit.
Well yes, I missed the "AM" part. But more on the topic, I would choose the Shadowsword, Stormlord or Stormhammer if it came to Baneblade variants, and probably a Macharius Vulcan if we pick the other ones.
I say fill the Stormlord with something that wants to get up close and use it as an assault vehicle instead of a bunker. Get the tank into CC as soon as possible and unload 30 Combat Engineers with a priest, Death Korps Regimental Banner and Yarrick. You can imagine the carnage of 60 Carcass Shells wounding all non vehicles on 2s, re-rollings 1s to hit, followed by 99 attacks on the charge from the Engineers alone.
Otto von Bludd wrote: I say fill the Stormlord with something that wants to get up close and use it as an assault vehicle instead of a bunker. Get the tank into CC as soon as possible and unload 30 Combat Engineers with a priest, Death Korps Regimental Banner and Yarrick. You can imagine the carnage of 60 Carcass Shells wounding all non vehicles on 2s, re-rollings 1s to hit, followed by 99 attacks on the charge from the Engineers alone.
Im gonna do this with 10 Veterans, Straken, Priest and Yarick, just for Style, cause i Love my Veterans + Straken...
Veterans with 3 flamer and HeavyFlamer.
The rest Will be LasCanon-Teams or something like that
Which setup should i go for the Tank? 2 or 4 sponsons?
/edit are Lascanons worth to put into the stormlord? Cause "only" 10 can Fire and hitting on 5's when stormi moves...
Otto von Bludd wrote: I say fill the Stormlord with something that wants to get up close and use it as an assault vehicle instead of a bunker. Get the tank into CC as soon as possible and unload 30 Combat Engineers with a priest, Death Korps Regimental Banner and Yarrick. You can imagine the carnage of 60 Carcass Shells wounding all non vehicles on 2s, re-rollings 1s to hit, followed by 99 attacks on the charge from the Engineers alone.
Im gonna do this with 10 Veterans, Straken, Priest and Yarick, just for Style, cause i Love my Veterans + Straken...
Veterans with 3 flamer and HeavyFlamer.
The rest Will be LasCanon-Teams or something like that
Which setup should i go for the Tank? 2 or 4 sponsons?
/edit are Lascanons worth to put into the stormlord? Cause "only" 10 can Fire and hitting on 5's when stormi moves...
I let my # of sponsons be dictated by the rest of my list and points available. Or sometimes how many models I don't feel like pushing around, haha.
jim300 wrote:Is there anybody who are considering to use rough rider? I think it can be good option for fast attack slot when you use brigade detachment.
P.S What is the best base for rough rider conversion
I have used my rough riders to harass my opponent's support units and lighter backfield units. But perhaps their greatest use thus far has been to bring them on turn 3 in a well hidden place, hoping my opponent will forget about them, then sprint to cap OBJs with their 11-16" movement.
I think we just discussed the base issue a few posts back.
sumi808 wrote: Is the destroyer tank hunter still a thing in 8th ed ?
It exists, yes. A Leman Russ body with an additional wound and armed with a 60" D3 Lascannon with damage D6 or 2D6 pick highest against vehicles. 170 points.
Do you think its worth to take a Trojan support vehicle together with the Stormlord? It costs ~100 points, but it lets the Stormlord reroll hits and you can put 6 guys into it
Bluthusten wrote: Do you think its worth to take a Trojan support vehicle together with the Stormlord? It costs ~100 points, but it lets the Stormlord reroll hits and you can put 6 guys into it
Yes, it is definitely worth it on any superheavy that itself is worth getting.
Klone12 wrote: What do you guy think about the praetor armoured assault launcher ?
Looks just worth its price.
I don't like that it requires LOS. It's my ideal replacement for basilisks. Other than that, it's pretty solid. I've got one that's been sitting in foam for a while. I'm thinking next time I play, I might take it out and set it next to the Stormlord just to watch color drain from my opponent's face. That doesn't leave me with enough points to really do much otherwise, but it'll be fun.
Bluthusten wrote: /edit are Lascanons worth to put into the stormlord? Cause "only" 10 can Fire and hitting on 5's when stormi moves...
20 can fire. HWTs take up 2 transport slots but nothing mentions them taking up 2 firing slots.
If you want a large assault transport, take a CRASSUS. That thing is so evil if you give it heavy flamers. It can shoot after advancing and fire in combat. 35 transport slots means you can field a full unit of Bullgryn with character support, or a mix of other squads. Fast and durable too, at only 268pts, it is pretty much a Guard Land Raider. I think that whilst the Stormlord makes a very good bunker, the CRASSUS makes the superior assault transport. I mean, it is called the CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT for a reason...
Bluthusten wrote: /edit are Lascanons worth to put into the stormlord? Cause "only" 10 can Fire and hitting on 5's when stormi moves...
20 can fire. HWTs take up 2 transport slots but nothing mentions them taking up 2 firing slots.
If you want a large assault transport, take a CRASSUS. That thing is so evil if you give it heavy flamers. It can shoot after advancing and fire in combat. 35 transport slots means you can field a full unit of Bullgryn with character support, or a mix of other squads. Fast and durable too, at only 268pts, it is pretty much a Guard Land Raider. I think that whilst the Stormlord makes a very good bunker, the CRASSUS makes the superior assault transport. I mean, it is called the CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT for a reason...
I bought it's brother, the PRAETOR. While its no CRASSUS, it's the same size and shape, so if I hate people I sometimes decide to counts-as a CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT.
With the removal of access points in 8th, having a large transport with only a rear access ramp is not the problem that it used to be. As for the Praetor, people would probably welcome using it as a counts as. It would be like me using my Vulture as a Valkyrie, I doubt people would object!
MinscS2 wrote: A Leman Russ BT with a Battle Cannon and Heavy Bolter is 162 pts.
A Leman Russ Conqueror with Conqueror Battle Cannon, Co-axial Storm Bolter and Heavy Bolter is 143.
Yes, it's an obvious choice and a classic case of FW underpricing. WIth that said, the regular LR with a Battle Cannon isn't really worth 162 pts to begin with.
I just started up again after a break and just started reading the relevant indices. When I saw points values for units that didnt include wargear, I assumed that meant ADDITONAL wargear, not things that the datasheet says it comes with, but thats not the case? So even though it says that the LRBT comes with a Battle Cannon and HB, I still have to add those points on to it, on top of the 132 base? That seems kinda wonky....youd think theyd give you the points values for how its equipped on the datasheet.
MinscS2 wrote: A Leman Russ BT with a Battle Cannon and Heavy Bolter is 162 pts.
A Leman Russ Conqueror with Conqueror Battle Cannon, Co-axial Storm Bolter and Heavy Bolter is 143.
Yes, it's an obvious choice and a classic case of FW underpricing. WIth that said, the regular LR with a Battle Cannon isn't really worth 162 pts to begin with.
I just started up again after a break and just started reading the relevant indices. When I saw points values for units that didnt include wargear, I assumed that meant ADDITONAL wargear, not things that the datasheet says it comes with, but thats not the case? So even though it says that the LRBT comes with a Battle Cannon and HB, I still have to add those points on to it, on top of the 132 base? That seems kinda wonky....youd think theyd give you the points values for how its equipped on the datasheet.
That's correct, You must add the cost of all gear. It changes up the cost of things like dramatically. It's annoying, but I use battlescribe so it's fine.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've been pondering, what do we think of Manticores vs basilisks?
Obviously, the manticore has the better gun, but with only shooting 4 times, and being about 25 points more expensive I'm not sure what I think...
Not sure if this has been discussed yet, but it would seem Nork Deddog can act as bodyguard for Pask ... meaning he is incredibly useful in blocking high damage weapons. Just a thought.
Page 27 – Sabre Weapons Battery, Defence Searchlight
Change this to read:
‘If this model has a defence searchlight, at the start of
your Shooting phase it may select a single enemy unit
within 48" and line of sight. One friendly <Regiment>
Infantry or <Regiment> Sabre Weapons Battery
unit adds 1 to any hit rolls that target the chosen unit
until the end of the Shooting phase. A single unit
cannot benefit from multiple Defence Searchlights.’
Page 27 – Sabre Weapons Battery, Defence Searchlight
Change this to read:
‘If this model has a defence searchlight, at the start of
your Shooting phase it may select a single enemy unit
within 48" and line of sight. One friendly <Regiment>
Infantry or <Regiment> Sabre Weapons Battery
unit adds 1 to any hit rolls that target the chosen unit
until the end of the Shooting phase. A single unit
cannot benefit from multiple Defence Searchlights.’
I wouldn't have expected it to stack anyway. I think the real difference is that it now only works for infantry and sabres.
Still decent for conscript blobs.
So does anyone know anywhere I can pick this OOP model up? I swear I've been looking for the last month plus and no one is selling them.
Are Vets worth taking in chimeras in a russ heavy list? Or is it better just to use cheap regular infantry squads?
Also Im seeing a lot of praise for HWS/HWT. They dont seem to have changed much since last edition, why are they better now? Autocannons still the go to loadout for them?
Billagio wrote: Are Vets worth taking in chimeras in a russ heavy list? Or is it better just to use cheap regular infantry squads?
Also Im seeing a lot of praise for HWS/HWT. They dont seem to have changed much since last edition, why are they better now? Autocannons still the go to loadout for them?
From what I've read here, people tend to be really into Mortar teams because the bang-for-point ratio is very very good (in point costed games, much less so in PL). People are also talking up lascannons because it's the heavy hitter. I don't think Autocannons are terrible, but the mathhammer says they're no longer the most-points-efficient-always-useful guns they were in 7th.
Also Im seeing a lot of praise for HWS/HWT. They dont seem to have changed much since last edition, why are they better now? Autocannons still the go to loadout for them?
Because they're much cheaper, and are now a heavy slot and doesn't require a infantry platoon for each.
in 7th a HWS with 3 Lascannons was 105 pts and a HWS with 3 Autocannons was 75 pts.
Now a HWS with 3 Lascannons is 72 pts and a HWS with 3 Autocannons is 57 pts
Some people also like to spamm HWS with Mortars at 27 pts per squad. Especially nifty for the Heavy Support-detatchment if you want some cheap command points.
Was thinking of running some death korps grenadies 5 man squads in chimeras with 2 meltaguns each, but my question is, how many melta is too much? I have 3 chimeras so i could fit 6 5 man squads in them, that would be 12 meltaguns that hit on 3+, overkill or just right?
With the FAQ the grenadies also got the option to take twin heavy stubbers as a special weapon, and can also separately from the special weapons take a heavy flamer team, which seem kind of a waste on bs 3+ models.
Big change also to artillery is that they're targeted as a single unit so you're either going to have to do a bunch of drops to separate them out or they all get focused down without any sort of split fire from your opponent.
Markerlights are still awesome. They just never should have stacked in the first place. Now I only need 6 instead of 9
DoomMouse wrote: Did the forge world FAQ NOT fix the elysians plasma guns? I hear they are still damage three...
They did fix them. Guess that's what happens when you get your information from the word on the street instead of straight from the horse's mouth
No they didn't fix them. They only fixed the Plasma Pistol, but the Plasma Gun still does 3 damage when overcharged. Maybe you should get your information from the FAQ itself and not some equine mouth.
I stand corrected. Thought they changed both. Reading comprehension is a tough life skill to master. As is reading internet tone apparently. No need to get any feathers ruffled over toy soldiers.
Wonder if that's an oversight or intentional. Can't really think of a reason why Elysian Plasma would be more powerful, but only if it comes out of the plasma guns...
I really don't know how they managed to miss it. Elysians aren't supposed to have super-plasma in the fluff are they? I'd not play it that way way if I were using Elysians personally, it just seems like a bizarre difference!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Against MEQ, do you think it would be better to bring a manticore or ~2 wyverns? The higher strength on the manticore would be nice but you dont get as many shots...
luke1705 wrote: I stand corrected. Thought they changed both. Reading comprehension is a tough life skill to master. As is reading internet tone apparently. No need to get any feathers ruffled over toy soldiers.
It was intended as a joke, no feathers were ruffled. Guess you weren't wrong about the difficulty of reading (or conveying) internet tone.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Against MEQ, do you think it would be better to bring a manticore or ~2 wyverns? The higher strength on the manticore would be nice but you dont get as many shots...
A Manticore is 133 vs 186 for two Wyverns. Purely against infantry, I would expect the Wyverns to perform better. You have twice the amount of (main) shots per vehicle, same chance to hit, only a little worse to wound against T4 and better versus T3. The Storm Eagle does bring the Sv3+ to a Sv5+, so you'll kill 2 out of 3 instead of 1 out of 3, but the Wyverns 4d6 vs 2d6 shots makes this more or less equal. So if we're only talking about T4 W1 Sv3+ infantry or worse, one Wyvern is only slightly worse than a Manticore and about 40 points cheaper. As such, two Wyverns will be the better choice, especially considering that you get almost twice the durability and can fire more than four shots.
However, if you actually expect to fight anything other than T4 infantry and don't feel confident in your ability to fight vehicles, I would bring a Manticore.
sumi808 wrote: The "oversight" on the drop troopers plasma guns could be a move to sell more models
TBH I really don't see that as a motivating factor for them. If it were, you'd see awful units becoming a lot better much more regularly. I honestly think the reason why they make bad units playable is so that people will enjoy playing with them. Just watch their play through video for Deathwatch Overkill. Like that's all that's on their mind. It's nice because it has a side-effect of making the unit better competitively too.
Nah, I'm sure what happened is they noticed they screwed up the plasma pistol, but were in such a hurry to squeeze this FAQ in between the first and second rounds of Space Marine FAQs that they didn't realize they had copy-pasted the same mistake over to the plasma gun.
SkuzlBuTt wrote: Quick question, elisian plasma guns still have 3 dmg per shot, am i right?
They do. Some people are speculating that this is a mistake that they failed to fix, but that is what the rules say they do currently
It's a pity. I was really banking on them getting these types of things fixed quickly with the swift errata, or at least address it in the FAQ. My local meta is really against FW largely because of these errors, the undercosting of many super strong units, and the belief that it's all pay to win rounding out the stigma. I can't do much about it, so I guess I either decide the expensive elysians I ordered are normal GW stand ins, or I return em :(
SkuzlBuTt wrote: Quick question, elisian plasma guns still have 3 dmg per shot, am i right?
They do. Some people are speculating that this is a mistake that they failed to fix, but that is what the rules say they do currently
It's a pity. I was really banking on them getting these types of things fixed quickly with the swift errata, or at least address it in the FAQ. My local meta is really against FW largely because of these errors, the undercosting of many super strong units, and the belief that it's all pay to win rounding out the stigma. I can't do much about it, so I guess I either decide the expensive elysians I ordered are normal GW stand ins, or I return em :(
I don't want to get up on too much of a soapbox but if I were you, I'd play the models I enjoy playing. Don't let anyone tell you you're having fun wrong. (Unless your fun makes it no fun for them. Then maybe you do need to reassess)
I would honestly just play the Elysians with 2 damage plasma. Then no one can complain on any grounds.
For what it's worth, when I put together my tournament imperial guard list, it included exactly two Forge World models - 2 vultures. And if I had to stray away from those and take 3 Taurox Primes instead, the sky isn't falling. My point being: you can take undercosted units from both GW and forge world. People who rag on Forge world are people whom I would like to play with GW only units and show them that banning Forge World units solves exactly nothing about OP units. And almost every "error" that wasn't immediately obvious has already been erratad and/or FAQ'd. People are always going to look for complaints and excuses about why they're a bad general and keep losing.
SkuzlBuTt wrote: Quick question, elisian plasma guns still have 3 dmg per shot, am i right?
They do. Some people are speculating that this is a mistake that they failed to fix, but that is what the rules say they do currently
It's a pity. I was really banking on them getting these types of things fixed quickly with the swift errata, or at least address it in the FAQ. My local meta is really against FW largely because of these errors, the undercosting of many super strong units, and the belief that it's all pay to win rounding out the stigma. I can't do much about it, so I guess I either decide the expensive elysians I ordered are normal GW stand ins, or I return em :(
Luke is wrong, fixed and reverted to 2 damage as of yesterday's FAQ
SkuzlBuTt wrote: Quick question, elisian plasma guns still have 3 dmg per shot, am i right?
They do. Some people are speculating that this is a mistake that they failed to fix, but that is what the rules say they do currently
It's a pity. I was really banking on them getting these types of things fixed quickly with the swift errata, or at least address it in the FAQ. My local meta is really against FW largely because of these errors, the undercosting of many super strong units, and the belief that it's all pay to win rounding out the stigma. I can't do much about it, so I guess I either decide the expensive elysians I ordered are normal GW stand ins, or I return em :(
Did your meta ban Tau and Eldar for the past 3 editions? Because if they didn't they're just hypocrites. Nothing in any 8th book, FW or otherwise is close to the under pointing and rules abuse in those codexes.
So I dunno if this has been covered in this thread yet, but I miss veterans. All I see is either conscripts or scions.
Can someone give me pros and cons of veterans vs scions?
<edit> Also, the forge world index errata did not change anything about the thunderbolt as far as I can see. Means it's gonna stay a baller borderline OP death machine.
ThePorcupine wrote: So I dunno if this has been covered in this thread yet, but I miss veterans. All I see is either conscripts or scions.
Can someone give me pros and cons of veterans vs scions?
<edit> Also, the forge world index errata did not change anything about the thunderbolt as far as I can see. Means it's gonna stay a baller borderline OP death machine.
Both have BS3+, but the Scions have Sv4+ as well. Veterans can take 3 special weapons, 1 heavy weapon and 1 heavy flamer, while Tempestus Scions can take 2 special weapons per five or 4 per command squad. Veterans are 60 points for a squad with lasguns, and Tempestus are 36/45 for a command squad/scion squad respectively. Scions also have deep strike, but needs their own Tempestor to get orders compared to Veterans who can use normal officers.
The benefits of veterans are that they are cheaper per model (although more expensive per unit) and have more possible weapons.
The benefits of Tempestus Scions are that you can get the units cheaper, giving you more special weapons per point spent (if we're doing command squads, less if we're talking normal scions). They also have the crucial deep strike rule, which means they can always strike first and likely at something vital.
So the problem with veterans are that they don't have a good way to get into the fray as quickly as Scions. Need to get rid of a model quickly? Veterans have to slog over there while Tempestus can actually just enter the fight where they are needed. If you want Veterans to move quickly, you have to buy an expensive transport, doubling the unit cost. I think this is one of the main reasons people don't use them, as well as the aforementioned higher weapons density on Scion Command Squads. Sure, Veterans fit better in a normal gunline, but then you could just use normal infantry who cost 2/3 of the Veterans without weapons and spend the rest on heavy weapons teams or other cool stuff.
The Thunderbolt is devastating yes, but it costs 190 points in its basic configuration, with Hellstrikes and Skystrikes making it 80/90 points more expensive. A Vendetta is 230 points and about as effective as its trades autocannons for lascannons. The Thunderbolt should also suffer the -1 to hit from using heavy weapons and moving.
Thunderbolt is 40 points more than a vendetta, yes, but it ups vendetta's 6 shots with 14 shots of its own at bs3+ to vendetta's 4+, and more survivability on top of that. It's ridiculous.
ThePorcupine wrote: Thunderbolt is 40 points more than a vendetta, yes, but it ups vendetta's 6 shots with 14 shots of its own at bs3+ to vendetta's 4+, and more survivability on top of that. It's ridiculous.
8 shots of S7 AP-1 2D
2 shots of S9 AP-3 D6
4 shots of S8 AP-2 D6
Oh, I never noticed the BS3+. That should probably get an errata, otherwise yes, it's a bit ridiculous. Same for Lightning and Avenger, with them getting strafing run if necessary (as they are strike fighters).
Did your meta ban Tau and Eldar for the past 3 editions? Because if they didn't they're just hypocrites. Nothing in any 8th book, FW or otherwise is close to the under pointing and rules abuse in those codexes.
This is offtopic, but I didn't know Eldars 4th Ed. Codex was considered OP during 5th Ed?
Did your meta ban Tau and Eldar for the past 3 editions? Because if they didn't they're just hypocrites. Nothing in any 8th book, FW or otherwise is close to the under pointing and rules abuse in those codexes.
This is offtopic, but I didn't know Eldars 4th Ed. Codex was considered OP during 5th Ed?
Yeah, it was in only in 6th that Eldar got silly. I don't remember Tau being complained about much in 5th either but I could just have forgotten.
ThePorcupine wrote: So I dunno if this has been covered in this thread yet, but I miss veterans. All I see is either conscripts or scions.
Can someone give me pros and cons of veterans vs scions?
<edit> Also, the forge world index errata did not change anything about the thunderbolt as far as I can see. Means it's gonna stay a baller borderline OP death machine.
Both have BS3+, but the Scions have Sv4+ as well. Veterans can take 3 special weapons, 1 heavy weapon and 1 heavy flamer, while Tempestus Scions can take 2 special weapons per five or 4 per command squad. Veterans are 60 points for a squad with lasguns, and Tempestus are 36/45 for a command squad/scion squad respectively. Scions also have deep strike, but needs their own Tempestor to get orders compared to Veterans who can use normal officers.
The benefits of veterans are that they are cheaper per model (although more expensive per unit) and have more possible weapons.
The benefits of Tempestus Scions are that you can get the units cheaper, giving you more special weapons per point spent (if we're doing command squads, less if we're talking normal scions). They also have the crucial deep strike rule, which means they can always strike first and likely at something vital.
So the problem with veterans are that they don't have a good way to get into the fray as quickly as Scions. Need to get rid of a model quickly? Veterans have to slog over there while Tempestus can actually just enter the fight where they are needed. If you want Veterans to move quickly, you have to buy an expensive transport, doubling the unit cost. I think this is one of the main reasons people don't use them, as well as the aforementioned higher weapons density on Scion Command Squads. Sure, Veterans fit better in a normal gunline, but then you could just use normal infantry who cost 2/3 of the Veterans without weapons and spend the rest on heavy weapons teams or other cool stuff.
The Thunderbolt is devastating yes, but it costs 190 points in its basic configuration, with Hellstrikes and Skystrikes making it 80/90 points more expensive. A Vendetta is 230 points and about as effective as its trades autocannons for lascannons. The Thunderbolt should also suffer the -1 to hit from using heavy weapons and moving.
I haven't seen much discussion on Vendetta's for 8th edition. Is there a general consensus on them yet? They're pricey but have more wounds than a Russ does. Thinking they may be worth it to just sit in hover mode and blaze away but will have to play with them a bit to determine that because 230 points is not a small investment.
Elysian veterans might be a good half-way point between vets and scions. Ten men deep striking with three plasma guns and a bolter (for the sergeant) is 92pts I believe. Their lasguns can rapid fire when dropped which is an advantage they have over hot shots. I think they compare pretty favourably against a similar points investment in plasma scions.
DoomMouse wrote: Elysian veterans might be a good half-way point between vets and scions. Ten men deep striking with three plasma guns and a bolter (for the sergeant) is 92pts I believe. Their lasguns can rapid fire when dropped which is an advantage they have over hot shots. I think they compare pretty favourably against a similar points investment in plasma scions.
Plasma Elysian drops do really well. I have been experimenting with this set up deep striking in...
Elysian commander
Elysian command with 4 plasma
2 vet squads with 3 plasma and plasma pistol
Elysian officer of the fleet.
Vulture
Officer of the fleet gains deep strike from being an Elysian so he can come in with that package and not be the closest model and still give targeting making a vulture 3+ on the move and 2+ if sitting still.
I haven't seen much discussion on Vendetta's for 8th edition. Is there a general consensus on them yet? They're pricey but have more wounds than a Russ does. Thinking they may be worth it to just sit in hover mode and blaze away but will have to play with them a bit to determine that because 230 points is not a small investment.
Compare them with a few other units! You can get about 9 heavy weapons teams for the same price (216 v 230 points), or a Leman Russ Annihilator with hull lascannon and multi-melta sponsons (232 points) or 3 Rapier Laser Destroyers, or any kind of units. The Vendetta has 6 lascannons compared to 9, 3+2 MM and 3 Laser Destroyers respectively. A lascannon is about the same as a multi-melta, so it would beat the Annihilator (6 v 5 weapons, more wounds but less toughness, faster movement, transport capacity). A single Laser Destroyer is a bit more than twice as good as a single Lascannon (but has a chance to utterly destroy a vehicle with its 3d6 damage on a "6" and seriously cripple when with 2d6 on 3-5), but it has shorter range and less flexibility in its movement, though you could spread them around. And the HWS beat everything in damage, but have the toughness of a wet noodle.
Another unit is the Manticore battery. You could have two of those, each with 4 Manticore Missiles (equal to a one-shot lascannon). You only get 8 shots, but you could frontload them and deal some hefty damage. Or good old heavy artillery, since an Earthshaker is just a bit worse than 2 Lascannons but has more flexibility in its preferred targets.
So I would say that a Vendetta definitely has its place.
SkuzlBuTt wrote: Quick question, elisian plasma guns still have 3 dmg per shot, am i right?
They do. Some people are speculating that this is a mistake that they failed to fix, but that is what the rules say they do currently
It's a pity. I was really banking on them getting these types of things fixed quickly with the swift errata, or at least address it in the FAQ. My local meta is really against FW largely because of these errors, the undercosting of many super strong units, and the belief that it's all pay to win rounding out the stigma. I can't do much about it, so I guess I either decide the expensive elysians I ordered are normal GW stand ins, or I return em :(
Did your meta ban Tau and Eldar for the past 3 editions? Because if they didn't they're just hypocrites. Nothing in any 8th book, FW or otherwise is close to the under pointing and rules abuse in those codexes.
You're preaching to the choir. I've been trying to get the closest group to me to start allowing it, largely because the models are super cool and the swift release of erratas and FAQs were supposed to address anything that could clearly be considered a mistake, but they're not really budging on those things. Alas, it isn't important so much anymore - I enjoy the group any way and I don't have much choice. I'll just do as they wish and abuse Scions since they can play a similar style to Elysians
DoomMouse wrote: Elysian veterans might be a good half-way point between vets and scions. Ten men deep striking with three plasma guns and a bolter (for the sergeant) is 92pts I believe. Their lasguns can rapid fire when dropped which is an advantage they have over hot shots. I think they compare pretty favourably against a similar points investment in plasma scions.
Plasma Elysian drops do really well. I have been experimenting with this set up deep striking in...
Elysian commander
Elysian command with 4 plasma
2 vet squads with 3 plasma and plasma pistol
Elysian officer of the fleet.
Vulture
Officer of the fleet gains deep strike from being an Elysian so he can come in with that package and not be the closest model and still give targeting making a vulture 3+ on the move and 2+ if sitting still.
Did I miss some change to Officer of the Fleet? I thought they only allowed rerolls of 1s, not +1 to hit.
SkuzlBuTt wrote: Quick question, elisian plasma guns still have 3 dmg per shot, am i right?
They do. Some people are speculating that this is a mistake that they failed to fix, but that is what the rules say they do currently
It's a pity. I was really banking on them getting these types of things fixed quickly with the swift errata, or at least address it in the FAQ. My local meta is really against FW largely because of these errors, the undercosting of many super strong units, and the belief that it's all pay to win rounding out the stigma. I can't do much about it, so I guess I either decide the expensive elysians I ordered are normal GW stand ins, or I return em :(
Did your meta ban Tau and Eldar for the past 3 editions? Because if they didn't they're just hypocrites. Nothing in any 8th book, FW or otherwise is close to the under pointing and rules abuse in those codexes.
You're preaching to the choir. I've been trying to get the closest group to me to start allowing it, largely because the models are super cool and the swift release of erratas and FAQs were supposed to address anything that could clearly be considered a mistake, but they're not really budging on those things. Alas, it isn't important so much anymore - I enjoy the group any way and I don't have much choice. I'll just do as they wish and abuse Scions since they can play a similar style to Elysians
DoomMouse wrote: Elysian veterans might be a good half-way point between vets and scions. Ten men deep striking with three plasma guns and a bolter (for the sergeant) is 92pts I believe. Their lasguns can rapid fire when dropped which is an advantage they have over hot shots. I think they compare pretty favourably against a similar points investment in plasma scions.
Plasma Elysian drops do really well. I have been experimenting with this set up deep striking in...
Elysian commander
Elysian command with 4 plasma
2 vet squads with 3 plasma and plasma pistol
Elysian officer of the fleet.
Vulture
Officer of the fleet gains deep strike from being an Elysian so he can come in with that package and not be the closest model and still give targeting making a vulture 3+ on the move and 2+ if sitting still.
Did I miss some change to Officer of the Fleet? I thought they only allowed rerolls of 1s, not +1 to hit.
Nope misread it is what I did. Still going to keep it in for the volume of shots that a vulture puts out.
What are people's thoughts on Primaris psykers? My last game I played my old space marines for fun however, and I was quite impressed with my Librarian.
Astropaths are just so cheap however, and their cover removing ability seems really useful.
34 points for a Primaris versus, 15 points for a Astropath. . .
Primaris have their place, if you need a way to get mortal wounds in your army. But Astropaths are seriously good. I think 2 is the magic number of them, if placed apart can create a massive deny bubble and both can remove cover to 2 separate enemy units while also generating 2 different powers. I prefer barrier and gaze.
argonak wrote: What are people's thoughts on Primaris psykers? My last game I played my old space marines for fun however, and I was quite impressed with my Librarian.
Astropaths are just so cheap however, and their cover removing ability seems really useful.
34 points for a Primaris versus, 15 points for a Astropath. . .
I just use whichever one I have the force org slots for - Primaris make good cheap HQs fillers if you don't need more orders. Also, don't forget to pay for their melee weapons - you have the base costs a bit off.
I just noticed the Astropath can trade his melee weapon for a Laspistol... so you actually have that correct. That really makes the Primaris a hard sell in comparison. I'd lean toward the Astropath unless you really need the HQ slots.
Just thought of this... don't know if it has been covered. A chimera full of primaris psykers for smite spam. Or just walking behind a squad of conscripts. That's a lot of cheap and pretty reliable smiting.
Each turn 10 could, with their powers combined, pull down a storm Raven. They can't be targeted. Costs 400 points.
Smotejob wrote: Just thought of this... don't know if it has been covered. A chimera full of primaris psykers for smite spam. Or just walking behind a squad of conscripts. That's a lot of cheap and pretty reliable smiting.
Each turn 10 could, with their powers combined, pull down a storm Raven. They can't be targeted. Costs 400 points.
You can't cast psykic powers from inside the chimera. See embarked section of BRB.
Smotejob wrote: Just thought of this... don't know if it has been covered. A chimera full of primaris psykers for smite spam. Or just walking behind a squad of conscripts. That's a lot of cheap and pretty reliable smiting.
Each turn 10 could, with their powers combined, pull down a storm Raven. They can't be targeted. Costs 400 points.
You can't cast psykic powers from inside the chimera. See embarked section of BRB.
So cast it from outside? The idea is still sensible, since the psykers literally cannot be targeted.
This is the reason why the game has been bonkers post 5th ed FOC.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 83% of the powers go off. 8 smites on average.
6-7 of those will do a d3 mortal.
1-2 of those will do a d6 mortal.
You're looking at about 20 or so mortal wounds in one turn from that squad. Of course, then you have to keep them alive to do it again, but I could see them making up their points pretty easily.
daedalus wrote: You're looking at about 20 or so mortal wounds in one turn from that squad. Of course, then you have to keep them alive to do it again, but I could see them making up their points pretty easily.
That's assuming that the closest target is the big, shiny thing you want to zap, and not just an opposing squad of Conscripts. It also doesn't factor Deny, but I don't think you'd lose more than 2 Smites at most to that.
It's definitely a cute, oblique counter to small footprint armies, like Knights or Stormravens. But in most cases your opponent will have a lot of control over what you are able to Smite. Probably worth trying out, though.
I agree, you wouldn't lose more than two or so. Gk would be the only thing that would reasonably counter the majority of smites.
Thing is that if you can keep them alive, they're going to start ripping through about anything.
From the thread whining about conscripts, you'd think 20 wounds on conscripts is amazing for 400 points. That's still a devastating unit against a mech or elite list.
I think this is taking advantage of the fact that a huge chunk of your army (and combat power) can be in characters, and those characters are literally untargetable given certain easily-met conditions.
daedalus wrote: That's still a devastating unit against a mech or elite list.
Definitely. A lot of armies don't have the luxury of having "throwaway" units to get in the way. The best part is that if you're bringing Conscripts anyway, you'll naturally want to include Commissars, and that will help immensely in preventing chain reactions from Perils of the Warp. I will definitely have to try it out sometime.
daedalus wrote: That's still a devastating unit against a mech or elite list.
Definitely. A lot of armies don't have the luxury of having "throwaway" units to get in the way. The best part is that if you're bringing Conscripts anyway, you'll naturally want to include Commissars, and that will help immensely in preventing chain reactions from Perils of the Warp. I will definitely have to try it out sometime.
Even 'throwaway' units will melt though. 20 wounds per turn isn't nothing, even on conscripts. And the psykers can do it while in melee and before shooting.
DoomMouse wrote: Detachments are going to be an issue if you're thinking of bringing 10 of them. (Assuming tourneys are limited to three or something)
If it's three then you go two supreme command. You get up to two extra elite and/or Lord of War units and +2 command points.
At that point, you get one for whatever you want, and it's guard, so it's hilariously easy to make yourself a brigade. Really, if you wanted to, you could drop one of the supreme commands if you didn't want any HQs other than Psykers.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I think this is taking advantage of the fact that a huge chunk of your army (and combat power) can be in characters, and those characters are literally untargetable given certain easily-met conditions.
And yet they can also be targetable given certain easily met conditions, and ours are squishy.
My ratlings would love to have an enemy astropath get in range. Most armies have decent snipers already, and I would expect the codexes to fill out that overtime to everyone.
I want everyone to swap out their conscripts for infantry squads in your next game. I know not everyone is going to do that, but humor me. Do whatever you want to them in the process, and support them as makes sense. Let us talk about how they perform. I want this knowledge for the conscript thread.
Elysian Drop Troops Army List
"Change the final sentence of the first paragraph to read: ‘Models that have the Aeronautica Imperialis keywords on their datasheets replace them in all instances with Elysian Drop Troops."
Which means Officer of the Fleet's Strafing Coordinates ability will affect all Elysian drop troopers. So basically your Elysian officers don't even have to use the Take Aim order but the Bring it Down one instead. This is pretty powerful that you can re-roll hits and wounds of 1s on whatever priority target.
daedalus wrote: I want everyone to swap out their conscripts for infantry squads in your next game. I know not everyone is going to do that, but humor me. Do whatever you want to them in the process, and support them as makes sense. Let us talk about how they perform. I want this knowledge for the conscript thread.
I have already played a game with only infantry squads and artillery. It was devastating. I ran out of heavy weapons to stick in squads so had quite a few obj snatchers as they only had meltas or flamers in them. It took forever to move that many troops. I mean, I had to have had over 200 models on the board that game.
daedalus wrote: I want everyone to swap out their conscripts for infantry squads in your next game. I know not everyone is going to do that, but humor me. Do whatever you want to them in the process, and support them as makes sense. Let us talk about how they perform. I want this knowledge for the conscript thread.
Personally, I use infantry squads instead of conscripts anyway. I much prefer being able to take special and heavy weapons. Also, I find it much more useful to have many 10-man squads rather than one or two 50-man squads. Gives me much more flexibility in terms of deployment and movement, and also allows my squads to screen each other.
The only reason I'd ever actually take Conscripts was if I wanted to recreate something akin to the fighting in Dead Men Walking, where my Death Korps basically pressgang civilians into being a meatshield. So they'd only benefit from orders and commissars if I actually bought dedicated <Regiment> units for them, and I don't consider them close to OP in this scenario.
Instead, for the price of one big Conscript blob with attached officers (~200 points), I could bring 2 heavy artillery pieces with some points to spare. It's a trade I would make most days of the week.
Elysian Drop Troops Army List
"Change the final sentence of the first paragraph to read: ‘Models that have the Aeronautica Imperialis keywords on their datasheets replace them in all instances with Elysian Drop Troops."
Which means Officer of the Fleet's Strafing Coordinates ability will affect all Elysian drop troopers. So basically your Elysian officers don't even have to use the Take Aim order but the Bring it Down one instead. This is pretty powerful that you can re-roll hits and wounds of 1s on whatever priority target.
Oh man! This is really awesome! Elysian veterans are so good this edition.
Aenarian wrote: The only reason I'd ever actually take Conscripts was if I wanted to recreate something akin to the fighting in Dead Men Walking, where my Death Korps basically pressgang civilians into being a meatshield.
Update on the tank/death korp of kreig list I posted last week.
I didn't get the chance to pay the list to its fullest potential. My opponent want to do 1750pts and he was not prepared to fight a super heavy. So I dropped the Stormsword from my list and adjusted my list to 1750pts. My opponent was running eldar guardian spam with 2 wraithlords and 3 units of wraithguard. We got Big guns never tire and vanguard strike. I load some extra LOS blocking piece of terrain to give my opponent an advantage. This seemed to not help him. I ended up going first. Deployment, Center was tank commander, demolisher, and missile teams in a chimera. Right flank 3 conqueror tanks. Left flank, Stormtroopers in a chimera with field marshal, hydra, and exterminator tank.
First turn, tanks on center and right, cleared my opponent's left flank killing guardian squad in a building holding an objective, squad of eldar bikers, wraithlord, and almost killed a wraith guard unit. My opponent attempted to us the LOS blocking terrain to this advantage and moved his whole army behind some of the buildings. Cutting LOS off to my right flank. During my second turn, the tank commander and demolisher shifted to the left flank to re-enforce the flank. Right flank moved forward and toward my opponent's table edge. On the battle field was a piece of castle wall in the middle being used as a LOS blocking piece. The wall had a castle gate in it. This gave me an opening for the tanks to fire through. I position the tanks to have line of sight on the opening. There was also an objective in the opening as well. My opponent made the mistake of moving forward too far and put units in the opening. During my next turn, my right flank open up again on him clearing more infantry.
End of the battle. Death korp of Krieg won 8-3. Loss 1 chimera and the stormtrooper squad. They served there purpose shielding the tank line from an assault that was able to make it to my front line. The demolishes tank was brought down to 4 wounds left, but managed to pull back deeper in my line to preserve the tank.
Overall, tanks performed very good. The conqueror tanks did not show there full potential, but they still proved to worth tanking. I did not noticed this when I was building the list, but the conquerors have an improved movement stat. 10" stead of 8". I made some mistakes with the tank commander. Forgot my orders 1 turn and kept giving the same order to the demolisher. Tho I did not see a reason to not keep ordering him since he was hitting the hardest. The FAQ on the demolishers is a great improvement.
Aenarian wrote: The only reason I'd ever actually take Conscripts was if I wanted to recreate something akin to the fighting in Dead Men Walking, where my Death Korps basically pressgang civilians into being a meatshield.
Just wanted to say that I love that idea.
Well, I have thought about it and it seems more feasible now that I can mix and match units from different factions in one detachment, and don't have to take goddamn platoons. I think the biggest hurdle right now is that the entire range of GW Astra Militarum looks terrible, incredibly dated or both, as well as DKoK actually have more realistic proportions compared to GW plastics or metals.
Glitcha wrote:Update on the tank/death korp of kreig list I posted last week.
I didn't get the chance to pay the list to its fullest potential. My opponent want to do 1750pts and he was not prepared to fight a super heavy. So I dropped the Stormsword from my list and adjusted my list to 1750pts. My opponent was running eldar guardian spam with 2 wraithlords and 3 units of wraithguard. We got Big guns never tire and vanguard strike. I load some extra LOS blocking piece of terrain to give my opponent an advantage. This seemed to not help him. I ended up going first. Deployment, Center was tank commander, demolisher, and missile teams in a chimera. Right flank 3 conqueror tanks. Left flank, Stormtroopers in a chimera with field marshal, hydra, and exterminator tank...
This made a bit more confident in using my Mars-Alpha tanks in the future. Great to hear!
The Commissar (30pts) comes with a bolt pistol (1pt) so would cost 31pts as per his description but can take up to two items from the AM melee list and replace the bolt pistol with with one item from the AM ranged weapon list.
Does this mean I can take him with a chainsword (0pts) and a las pistol (0pts) and he will cost 30pts flat. I know this doesn't sound like a lot but in tournament play I want to take exactly the point limit and that 1pt could make a difference.
CaptainO wrote: The Commissar (30pts) comes with a bolt pistol (1pt) so would cost 31pts as per his description but can take up to two items from the AM melee list and replace the bolt pistol with with one item from the AM ranged weapon list.
Does this mean I can take him with a chainsword (0pts) and a las pistol (0pts) and he will cost 30pts flat. I know this doesn't sound like a lot but in tournament play I want to take exactly the point limit and that 1pt could make a difference.
Laspistols are not on the Astra Militarum Ranged Weapons-list on pg. 11, and Chainswords are not on the Astra Militarum Melee Weapons-list on the same page. So unfortunately not. You can change the pistol for a Boltgun or Plasma Pistol, and you can take any two of Power Sword, Power Maul, Power Axe and Power Fist.
CaptainO wrote: The Commissar (30pts) comes with a bolt pistol (1pt) so would cost 31pts as per his description but can take up to two items from the AM melee list and replace the bolt pistol with with one item from the AM ranged weapon list.
Does this mean I can take him with a chainsword (0pts) and a las pistol (0pts) and he will cost 30pts flat. I know this doesn't sound like a lot but in tournament play I want to take exactly the point limit and that 1pt could make a difference.
It means that you can take weapons from the ranged weapon and melee weapon list on page 11 of your index. Las weapons of any sort are sadly not included on that selection.
Note that there are particular other units you can actually take cheaper than the default price.
Aenarian wrote: The only reason I'd ever actually take Conscripts was if I wanted to recreate something akin to the fighting in Dead Men Walking, where my Death Korps basically pressgang civilians into being a meatshield.
Just wanted to say that I love that idea.
Well, I have thought about it and it seems more feasible now that I can mix and match units from different factions in one detachment, and don't have to take goddamn platoons. I think the biggest hurdle right now is that the entire range of GW Astra Militarum looks terrible, incredibly dated or both, as well as DKoK actually have more realistic proportions compared to GW plastics or metals.
Glitcha wrote:Update on the tank/death korp of kreig list I posted last week.
I didn't get the chance to pay the list to its fullest potential. My opponent want to do 1750pts and he was not prepared to fight a super heavy. So I dropped the Stormsword from my list and adjusted my list to 1750pts. My opponent was running eldar guardian spam with 2 wraithlords and 3 units of wraithguard. We got Big guns never tire and vanguard strike. I load some extra LOS blocking piece of terrain to give my opponent an advantage. This seemed to not help him. I ended up going first. Deployment, Center was tank commander, demolisher, and missile teams in a chimera. Right flank 3 conqueror tanks. Left flank, Stormtroopers in a chimera with field marshal, hydra, and exterminator tank...
This made a bit more confident in using my Mars-Alpha tanks in the future. Great to hear!
Points be damned, Mars-alpha pattern Conqueror tank all day every day.
Points be damned, Mars-alpha pattern Conqueror tank all day every day.
Actually don't have the Conqueror one because it was pretty bad before, but I'm thinking about getting some Stygies Vanquisher turrets and converting them into Conquerors
ross-128 wrote: Actually, now that you mention it... it's kind of lame that you can't take a chainsword and laspistol Commissar.
I hope the codex goes about adding some stuff to the ranged weapon and melee weapon lists, they just feel really incomplete.
But Ross, none of the official GW models have laspistols or chainswords! It's obviously unrealistic to add all kinds of weird and rare equipment to the weapons lists!
ross-128 wrote: Actually, now that you mention it... it's kind of lame that you can't take a chainsword and laspistol Commissar.
Why? The Officio Prefectus is a cut above. They don't use the same equipment as the rabble.
Besides, are you really complaining about having to pay 1 point extra? It's a BS3+ model, I'd probably pay for a Bolter even if it wasn't mandatory.
Thing is, at least chainswords and laspistols have been used by Commissars in the lore, althoug both of them seem to be more or less non-existant on models. Also, to rub salt in the wounds, Death Korps Commissars can take both a laspistol and a chainsword.
An amusing way to utilize a grav-chute insertion if you happen to be an infantry Guard player who is, for some weird reason, worried about drop counts: cram all your officers into a single Valkyrie (or Vendetta, if you also want to use it as a gunship), and deploy it about 12" from one side of your deployment zone. On the first turn, fly it 20" toward the other side and grav-chute all your officers into their positions. Between the 20" line you just drew through the center of your deployment zone and their 6" of movement, they should be able to get pretty much anywhere you want them.
Kind of silly/pointless, but it does mean you can reduce your deployment footprint by 11 drops.
Probably the only list this would actually get you first turn against is another infantry guard list though.
CaptainO wrote: The Commissar (30pts) comes with a bolt pistol (1pt) so would cost 31pts as per his description but can take up to two items from the AM melee list and replace the bolt pistol with with one item from the AM ranged weapon list.
Does this mean I can take him with a chainsword (0pts) and a las pistol (0pts) and he will cost 30pts flat. I know this doesn't sound like a lot but in tournament play I want to take exactly the point limit and that 1pt could make a difference.
Laspistols are not on the Astra Militarum Ranged Weapons-list on pg. 11, and Chainswords are not on the Astra Militarum Melee Weapons-list on the same page. So unfortunately not. You can change the pistol for a Boltgun or Plasma Pistol, and you can take any two of Power Sword, Power Maul, Power Axe and Power Fist.
Which is really really annoying. Lasguns and Laspistols should both be there. I'd much rather give my sergeants lasguns just to simplify shooting. Instead I give them bolters, which means I have to roll them separately.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ross-128 wrote: An amusing way to utilize a grav-chute insertion if you happen to be an infantry Guard player who is, for some weird reason, worried about drop counts: cram all your officers into a single Valkyrie (or Vendetta, if you also want to use it as a gunship), and deploy it about 12" from one side of your deployment zone. On the first turn, fly it 20" toward the other side and grav-chute all your officers into their positions. Between the 20" line you just drew through the center of your deployment zone and their 6" of movement, they should be able to get pretty much anywhere you want them.
Kind of silly/pointless, but it does mean you can reduce your deployment footprint by 11 drops.
Probably the only list this would actually get you first turn against is another infantry guard list though.
That's a hilarious idea full of awesome.
"Sergeant, look!"
<its raining men starts to play>
"Incoming officers!"
ross-128 wrote: An amusing way to utilize a grav-chute insertion if you happen to be an infantry Guard player who is, for some weird reason, worried about drop counts: cram all your officers into a single Valkyrie (or Vendetta, if you also want to use it as a gunship), and deploy it about 12" from one side of your deployment zone. On the first turn, fly it 20" toward the other side and grav-chute all your officers into their positions. Between the 20" line you just drew through the center of your deployment zone and their 6" of movement, they should be able to get pretty much anywhere you want them.
Kind of silly/pointless, but it does mean you can reduce your deployment footprint by 11 drops.
Probably the only list this would actually get you first turn against is another infantry guard list though.
Thank you for making me smile this morning, I will be trying to steal this idea in the future because it would be funny as hell.
Points be damned, Mars-alpha pattern Conqueror tank all day every day.
Actually don't have the Conqueror one because it was pretty bad before, but I'm thinking about getting some Stygies Vanquisher turrets and converting them into Conquerors
Same here. I was thinking about cutting the barrel down and putting a different muzzel on it or just cut out the back section and use the muzzel the stygies comes with.
Played the tank company again. This time 1250pts. No forge world.
1 tank commander Vanquisher
2 LR-BTs 1 LR-DM 1 Hydra
2 units of scions
1 Tempestor prime
1 Valkyrie
Opponent was running guard blobs with 5 balisk. One of the thing we discovered is that with the new rules that allows us to split fire with all over weapons. This means during the game, the LR-BT's fired their lascannons and battle cannons at the balisk. The heavy bolters and heavy stubbers firing at the guard blobs closest to the tank line.
I lost one of the LR-BT and the Valkyrie. The Valkyrie was able to deliver one of the tempest scion squads before being downed.
What's everyone's stand on vox casters this edition? Looks like you can significantly increase your order range which, I would think, would be very helpful. All for the cost of a couple of melta bombs.
Same here. I was thinking about cutting the barrel down and putting a different muzzel on it or just cut out the back section and use the muzzel the stygies comes with.
That was one idea I had. The other was to try to fit a plastic Battle Cannon onto it, since i have like 8 of those things just lying around.
necron99 wrote: What's everyone's stand on vox casters this edition? Looks like you can significantly increase your order range which, I would think, would be very helpful. All for the cost of a couple of melta bombs.
Its a decent upgrade, though you can often keep officers close enough that it isnt needed. The officer also isnt in too much danger thanks to the character rule.
Conscripts cant take em, so they need an officer close by.
Back-line firing squads can usually stay 6" from the officer. At most you need to make a small conga-line for which you can use the sergeant.
Scions pretty much deepstrike with the Tempestor Prime, so they dont need it either.
The only thing I can think of is:
Suicide special/command squads in a Valkyrie. Though they usually have to be deployed more than 18" away, making the vox-caster useless.
Sniper command squads. Though youd have to sacrifice one of the snipers for the vox-caster (remember, the model with the vox caster is not allowd to take a special weapon) making it kinda worthless.
necron99 wrote: What's everyone's stand on vox casters this edition? Looks like you can significantly increase your order range which, I would think, would be very helpful. All for the cost of a couple of melta bombs.
Personally for the armies I've considered it's seemed more efficient to just buy more officers for the same points. A shame really.
necron99 wrote: What's everyone's stand on vox casters this edition? Looks like you can significantly increase your order range which, I would think, would be very helpful. All for the cost of a couple of melta bombs.
I've never needed them. Given how cheap officers are, I can have enough to deploy one for every few squads I have. And if they're dead it's almost always going to be because their squads have been completely overrun anyway.
I think the main problem with voxes is how you are supposed to use them. A Company Commander has 2 orders, a Platoon Commander 1. To use a Vox Caster, you need to be within 3" if a unit with them. If you buy voxes for Platoon Commanders, why not just order the unit they're adjacent to? If you buy them for Company Commanders, can't you just keep two units at least partially within 6"? It might have some use if and when your units are almost dead, but I don't think I see a major benefit for spending at least 10 points to give orders via voxes.
If the range was a lot higher, I could see a use. Say, 36-48". Then you could feasibly use them for spearhead units without exposing your officers. But at 18... Not really sure I see the point.
necron99 wrote: What's everyone's stand on vox casters this edition? Looks like you can significantly increase your order range which, I would think, would be very helpful. All for the cost of a couple of melta bombs.
Company Commander, with two orders, is 30 points. He's the one you likely need the Vox for. Which means you need TWO voxes, so now he's 40 points to produce those two orders. On the other hand: 40 points is the same as two platoon commanders. And you could just stick them next to the squad they're commanding.
So in my opinion its really kind of a washout, and depends on how you want your HQs and Elites to work out. You're not going wrong by using them, and they may come in handy. Voxes on Infantry Squads also don't cost you a lasgun, unlike on Tempestus Scions.
Wow, they really killed the Vanquisher this time. VS another Leman Russ (T8, 3+sv), the hull lascannon has a higher chance of scoring damage, at 0.97 wounds per shot, VS 0.94 from the Vanquisher. And the Inferno cannon beats them both!
This is really sad, as it's always been my favorite unit. My armored company is almost exclusively made up of them, from the days when it could still choose to fire either standard Battlecannon ordnance blast rounds or its special anti tank round.
I hope it gets a buff of some kind when the Codex is released. I don't even care if it still won't be worth its points, I just want it to be good at the thing it's supposed to be good at - killing tanks.
Ya the punisher, Battlecannon and maybe the executioner (If you need to save 2 points/like playing with plasma) seem to be the only options.
I'm looking to base 6 infantry units of Infantry around Straken, Harker, a commissar, a priest and maybe some astropaths to mazimise buffs. I'm concerned about snipers targeting my characters (particularly the commissar) first turn because with so many drops I'll probably be going second, so was considering putting them in a Chimera (because for some reason they can't get in a Taurox Prime) when they deploy. Do any of their buffs (re-rol 1s, +1 attacks, Commissar ld etc) work if they are inside the chimera.
Or am I just being paranoid. Have many people fallen victim to character sniper fire turn one? Are snipers appearing as often as it looks like ratlings will due to their low point cost?
Personally if they made the regular vanquisers like the Macharius vanquisher I would be happy.
Also, for those folks looking for a Saber platform searchlight stand in You can try the Zinge Industries "Mandrill" static gun platform with the searchlight option.I have one on the way along with their taurox halftrack kit.
Ir0njack wrote: Personally if they made the regular vanquisers like the Macharius vanquisher I would be happy.
I don't really like the Heavy 2. I think the Vanquisher should be one shot with a big pay-off if it hits, and the Annihilator should be the more slow and steady one. But giving it more strength and a flat damage stat of 6 should probably be good enough.
(Assuming BS4+), This gives a ~72% chance to do nothing against T8 Sv3+, which is slightly better than the 79% chance to fail now, and it deals 6 instead of D6 damage when it actually deals damage.
Ir0njack wrote: Personally if they made the regular vanquisers like the Macharius vanquisher I would be happy.
I don't really like the Heavy 2. I think the Vanquisher should be one shot with a big pay-off if it hits, and the Annihilator should be the more slow and steady one. But giving it more strength and a flat damage stat of 6 should probably be good enough.
(Assuming BS4+), This gives a ~72% chance to do nothing against T8 Sv3+, which is slightly better than the 79% chance to fail now, and it deals 6 instead of D6 damage when it actually deals damage.
Ah sorry, I wasn't specific. I meant "like the macharius" in the regard that it has two modes of fire, a regular battle cannon and the S9 vanquisher shot. That would help it imo since currently it wounds most tanks and the like on a 4+, S9 would atlest make it basically a "better lascannon" and if theres no hard targets switch to the battlecannon shells
Sadly, just like with the LRBT vs LR Vanquisher, the Macharius HBT is better than the Macharius Vanquisher at dealing with enemy tanks.
Having two fireing-modes is cool, but GW/FW need to sort out the actual anti-tank part of the Vanquisher first, before they make rules for high explosive rounds.
But is there a good reason for it? The Macharius Vanquisher Blast Shell is worse than the Heavy Tank's, the AP shell is worse than the Heavy Tank's weapon, and the Vanquisher's blast shell is only a little better than its Blast Shell! Now, the AP shell is still a bit more of a gamble as when it hits, you can usually expect a very good hit, but it also has a very large chance of not doing anything, compared to the blast shells which usually do some damage every round.
While giving the normal Vanquisher some form of HE shell would be nice, it's still not especially attractive. If I needed some dedicated AT, I have literally one of the best possible selections already as AM (HWS with lascannons, LR Annihilators, Rapiers, Vendettas, Scions, Shadowsword, Valdor, Destroyer...) and a lot of things which can do AT-duty pretty effectively (Battle Cannons, heavy artillery of many different kinds, plasma overcharge, Demolishers, other superheavies).
So to echo MinscS2, they really need to sort out the Vanquisher's primary mode instead of just giving it a worse battle cannon-profile, since it will still be worse than standard Leman Russes and we have a lot of units which can supplant it.
The ability to hit things 48" away and out of LoS is certainly worth more than 5pts ...
Although, if facing a horde army, they're more often than not coming at you, so range is less of an issue. Additionally, your placement of the Taurox will be fairly easy to get it where you want it.
I'd say it comes down to your play style and whether or not you find that transport capacity useful, if you have other T7+ targets for your opponent to prioritize, and how much terrain you play with.
The Wyvern has 14 average, with 3 heavy bolt shots. Everything at 36" or more. The Taurox Prime has 28 shots at BS3+, but only within 24". Wyvern will hit 7 mortar shots, wound with 5.25 against T4 and then it will be dependent on save. The heavy bolter will deal an additional ~1 wound. The Taurox hits with ~13.3, wounds with 6.667. Then, the hot-shot volley gun will deal an additional 2.67 wounds.
So at first glance, we have about 6.25 vs 9.5 wounds. If the Taurox has moved, we have 6.25 vs 7.125. The Taurox gains some strength versus high armour due to -2 AP on the volley gun, the Wyvern is slightly better against higher toughness because it can re-roll its mortar and has S5 on the heavy bolter.
In all honesty, I think it depends on what you are facing. If it's a gunline, the Wyvern would probably be preferable. If you have to face down charging Orks, I would take the Taurox. I would also most likely take a lot of mortars over both of them if we're talking pure damage, as you get 12 mortars for the same price, have the same range as the Wyvern, as they can fire out of LoS and as they can be ordered.
Colonel Cross wrote: Can orders be given to heavy mortars, quad mortars, etc, from Imperial Armor that have crews?? I never thought of that ...
HKs on Pask and tank COs is nice.
You can give orders to the crew, but they won't affect the gun as they are separete units, with the gun being ARTILLERY and the crew being INFANTRY. So the way I presume you're thinking, no.
Nonetheless, the heavy artillery pieces (Earthshaker Platform, Earthshaker Carriage and Medusa Carriage) are decent units in and of themselves, with the Platform being great. The Field Artillery (Heavy Mortar, Heavy Quad Launcher) however are quite subpar when compared to basically any possible replacement.
So... I have found myself with a choice: Ogryns or Bullgryns
Ogryns come out to 30 ppm. Melee is good, and they have ranged capability with their ripper guns. Downside is that they pretty much don't have an armor save.
Bullgryns with Power Maul and Slab shield come out to 42 ppm. Melee is excellent with a 2+ armor save on top of their toughness 5. Downside is that they are very expensive, I could get three squads of guardsmen for a unit of these guys.
I was hoping to us them as a blitz unit, probably deploying from a Chimera alongside a Priest for even more melee goodness. Very expensive, but looks fun to use.
Anyone here have experience with these guys? It's a hard choice for me.
GreaterGood? wrote: I'm trying to do a pro-con of the Wyvern vs. the Taurox Prime (dakka)
It's tough, they're within 5 points of each other, both are designed to handle hordes and do so wildly differently...
I can't decide which is better.
The Taurox:
Hits on 3+
has double the average number of shots
some shots are -2 ap Transports 10
The Wyvern:
doesn't need line of sight
has double the range
rerolls failed to wound rolls.
+1 wound
I just can't decide which is better in what situation.
They do different things. Taurox Prime is great as a light battle tank and fire support unit. Stick 10 scions in it with their hot shot lasguns, and teleport in your Prime when you're ready. Play it smart and you can deploy them and then move them within 9" of an enemy, and then unload 40 or so shots with S3 AP-2. Dakka dakka dakka! Then the TP unloads its 32 shots. Dakka dakka dakka! All for a very reasonable 220 some points.
The wyvren just hangs out in the back and shoots, just like a manticore or basilisk. If that's what you want from it, its cleary better than the TP. TP is going to get shot up because it wants to get close (in the setup we're talking about).
GreaterGood? wrote: I'm trying to do a pro-con of the Wyvern vs. the Taurox Prime (dakka)
It's tough, they're within 5 points of each other, both are designed to handle hordes and do so wildly differently...
I can't decide which is better.
The Taurox:
Hits on 3+
has double the average number of shots
some shots are -2 ap Transports 10
The Wyvern:
doesn't need line of sight
has double the range
rerolls failed to wound rolls.
+1 wound
I just can't decide which is better in what situation.
They do different things. Taurox Prime is great as a light battle tank and fire support unit. Stick 10 scions in it with their hot shot lasguns, and teleport in your Prime when you're ready. Play it smart and you can deploy them and then move them within 9" of an enemy, and then unload 40 or so shots with S3 AP-2. Dakka dakka dakka! Then the TP unloads its 32 shots. Dakka dakka dakka! All for a very reasonable 220 some points.
The wyvren just hangs out in the back and shoots, just like a manticore or basilisk. If that's what you want from it, its cleary better than the TP. TP is going to get shot up because it wants to get close (in the setup we're talking about).
I think the bigger issue is, are you taking other artillery units. If so then you lose placement opportunities for those other units by taking a wyvern.
I want a basilisk/medusa or a manticore before terrain before I want my wvyern there most of the time. I doubt you could hide 5 or 6 tanks behind terrain on most tables completely.
So depends on what you need from the rest of your list and what other de0loyment issues you may find.
Cothonian wrote: So... I have found myself with a choice: Ogryns or Bullgryns
Ogryns come out to 30 ppm. Melee is good, and they have ranged capability with their ripper guns. Downside is that they pretty much don't have an armor save.
Bullgryns with Power Maul and Slab shield come out to 42 ppm. Melee is excellent with a 2+ armor save on top of their toughness 5. Downside is that they are very expensive, I could get three squads of guardsmen for a unit of these guys.
I was hoping to us them as a blitz unit, probably deploying from a Chimera alongside a Priest for even more melee goodness. Very expensive, but looks fun to use.
Anyone here have experience with these guys? It's a hard choice for me.
I've not had the opportunity to use ogryns yet, I don't have any so I'm going to proxy a squad the next time I play. But I've been running math between them and rough riders, and I think I like the rough rider options better.
Here's the optimal setup: Assume the enemy is MEQ (the Ogryns are going to be way better against GEQ though)
3 Bullgryns with Bullgryn Mauls and slabshields. 111 points.
Two squads of 5 rough riders with flame throwers, 120 points.
Bullgryns have no ranged weapons, so they just charge in. They do 13 attacks, 8.6 hits, 5.7 wounds, 2.8 unsaved wounds.
Now the 10 rough riders in two squads:
They shoot their 4 laspistols, throw two grenades, and fire 4 flame throwers. That's 2.5 unsaved wounds.
Next they charge. They get 8 lance attacks, 14 chainsword attacks, and 10 tramples. And that's another 5.2 unsaved wounds. And the lances are d3.
If you throw in the priest, the ogryns get 3 more attacks. That bumps them up to unsaved 3.5 wounds. If you can get the priest to the rough riders, which won't be be easy, that bumps them up to 9.6 unsaved wounds. Leaving that out they're still putting out less damage than the rough riders, although the priest brings his own pain if you outfit him right. If you're fighting GEQ, the Ogryns get one more unsaved wound.
That's how my mathhammer worked out anyway. The ogryns have more staying power though, the RR are going to feel the pain on the counter attack.
I have tried Ogryn and Bullgryn. It really depends on what you are facing. Ogryn were an awesome counter attack unit against GEQ. In another game they absolutely shredded some kroot and breachers in only 2 turns.
Bullgryn, while a far more effective unit in my opinion, draw way more fire as a consequence. Gotta admit, dropping them out of a Valk with a priest, Psyker (for that juicy +1 save), and Yarrick for a turn 1 charge was seriously fun. And actually quite effective. Nothing like throwing your opponent a curve ball when playing guard. Wish I had a pic of my opponents face when I dropped them in!
If you're comparing Bullgryns with how many Infantry Squads you can get for the same price, you're comparing apples to oranges.
Bullgryns don't shoot, but they are though, really tough for their points. A Bullgryn with Slab and Maul "pays" 14 points per T5 2+ wound.
They are also hit hard, really hard. Putting them up against 1 wound MEQ's is a bad example, because that's pretty much their worst target.
Against everything else though, be it Primaris Marines, GEQ's, TEQ's, MC's or Vehicles, they are outright nasty.
They can also get a 1+ armoursave pretty easily with psychic powers.
If they die to shooting, that just means that your opponent isn't shooting your other heavy stuff.
I've played with 6 Bullgryns in every game in 8th so far, and they've never been wiped out. Decimated yes, but never wiped out. With that said I used Bullgryns alot in 7th as well.
MinscS2 wrote: If you're comparing Bullgryns with how many Infantry Squads you can get for the same price, you're comparing apples to oranges.
Bullgryns don't shoot, but they are though, really tough for their points. A Bullgryn with Slab and Maul "pays" 14 points per T5 2+ wound.
They are also hit hard, really hard. Putting them up against 1 wound MEQ's is a bad example, because that's pretty much their worst target.
Against everything else though, be it Primaris Marines, GEQ's, TEQ's, MC's or Vehicles, they are outright nasty.
They can also get a 1+ armoursave pretty easily with psychic powers.
If they die to shooting, that just means that your opponent isn't shooting your other heavy stuff.
I've played with 6 Bullgryns in every game in 8th so far, and they've never been wiped out. Decimated yes, but never wiped out. With that said I used Bullgryns alot in 7th as well.
How do you equip your Bullgryns? The Maul seems like a no-brainer over the grenade gauntlet, but what kind of shields?
Ive heard people use 4 slabshields en 2 brute shields. Eat small arms fire with the slabs and heavy hitting stuff with the brute shields. While this might wound the brute shield guy and force him to take small arms fire, high dmg weapons usually do D3, 3 or D6dmg , which means he is most likely dead anyway if he fails his save.
And while a Psyker seems like an obvious support character for them, whats your take in the Priest? Giving them all +1 attack sounds wuite good, but is it worth the priests point cost?
I haven't thought much about Ogryn yet. I normally use infantry squads with power weapons when I want a countercharge unit, but that's mostly personal preference I think. My ogryn are old and metal, so they're strictly "Decently painted and to be ebayed on the off chance I need money for a down payment on a car."
I had a game today. 1250 AM vs Eldar: Eldar win.
I brought 2x10 plasmascions, 1x5 meltascions, plasmascion command squad, two primes, two taurox primes (gatling/HSVG), a basilisk, and two vendettas.
He had a couple Falcons, a couple serpents, and a large bike unit supported with farseer and a warlock. There were guardians in the serpents.
It was pitched battle (or the one where each person gets a long table edge deployment, whatever that's called nowadays) along with the Scouring mission type. Lots of objects for a small amount of points. I deep struck most of the scions, leaving the command squad inside one of the vendettas. Everything else lined up on or near objectives as best they could.
He got first turn (as usual) and immediately ghosted a taurox for first blood. I bring it all in and then I put a couple wounds on one of the falcons, and manage to wipe out a serpent with more focus fire than I wanted to spend. The bike squad is basically removed at this point, too.
He counter attacks with the guardians and manages to obliterate a squad of scions and most of the other. Slaps some damage on the vendettas. Charges one of the primes.
My remaining forces keep trying to put wounds on the vehicles (this continues for basically the rest of the game) while the prime spent a turn beating the hell out of guardians before the farseer got in there and finished him off. At one point around this time, I charged one vendetta and the remaining taurox, not realizing that his entire army has fly, and that lets you just walk out of combat with no repercussions. Made me lose some a lotta sympathy for the price you pay for those skimmers.
Anyway, he slowly wipes everything out until the bottom of 5th when I have my tempestor warlord and a basilisk left, and he's down to three mostly alive skimmers, his warlock, and his farseer. I'm set up for the tie, but we roll to continue. I concede at that point as he'll have me tabled that round.
Items of consideration for me:
- Mechdar is really strong, and you have to be careful what you're shooting at, because they can reduce multi-damage weapon effects quite a bit. Supercharge doesn't get you as much as it feels like it should, and some lucky rolling can make those lascannon shots just kinda disappear.
- In addition, bikes and skimmers having fly means you can't tie them up in melee, so they're gonna keep shooting at you. Needs to be something to plan for.
- I'm starting to see a case for 5 man squads. My opponent tonight was a good player; probably one of the best of the local guys around here. I see him regularly win the local tournaments we used to go to. Having that been said, if there was anyone who was going to appropriately split fire to take out 2x5 squads as opposed to 1x10 squads, it would have been him. Having that been said, I'd like to at least force him to have to try next time.
- The overall strategy that remained consistent through the game was that he kept his entire army surrounding his Farseer, and then kept them bubbled with conceal. That was hugely crippling to my efforts even in addition to all the damage reducing shields and whatnots they get.
- My deployment with the squad in the vendetta probably wasn't great. It's not like they couldn't shoot or anything, and I needed to deploy them somewhere for deep strike reasons, but I really need to think that through at list creation, not at deployment.
- The one taurox erased an entire 10 man guardian squad. I don't know if that's impressive or not, but it seems usable for anti-infantry. 96 points that can kill ~80 points in a turn seems reasonable.
- I'm still on the fence about the vendettas. Yeah, they were definitely more solid than two HWS would have been. I do not know if they were more solid than SIX HWS would have been, which is what they cost. Would have been an entire other vendetta's worth of damage output, and I could have issued it orders (if I had a CC instead of a second Prime). Might have to go that route next time.
- Psykers of my own are going to have to become an autoinclude at this point. Conceal is utterly amazing for a mobile army, and it's really, really easy to pull off. Even with just one casting of it a turn, I was really impressed with how badly it impacted me and how much of his army he was able to affect with it. Thankfully, astropaths are cheap, at least, and 15 points is pretty reasonable to try to shut down a power and be able to give a scion squad nearby power armor for a round. I have a squad of 9 Weirdname psykers that aren't ever going to see use anymore that are already painted. I'll either call them astropaths, or drop all of them in my page, and run that primaris smite spam thing we came up with a few pages ago.
From your writing it's unclear but conceal doesnt affect vehicles, only caster and eldar infantry. Considering how high you're rating conceal, you probably played that wrong.
I'd have avoided shooting the serpent early, focus on the squishy parts first (the bikes, Falcons)
I think I'll try rolling with a unit of Bullgryns, see how it works out. I must admit, I haven't actually used a dedicated melee unit in years! Going to be weird.
Cothonian wrote: I think I'll try rolling with a unit of Bullgryns, see how it works out. I must admit, I haven't actually used a dedicated melee unit in years! Going to be weird.
Weird but cool! BLOOD FOR THE... ahem. Emperor. That's what I meant.
I'd really like to try 2 units of 5 all-maul Bullgryns in a Crassus, with Straken and a Priest. That's 62 S7 Ap1 D2 attacks on the charge from the big boys. Only problem I see is I don't think the Crassus is durable enough to weather a round of shooting if your opponent goes first and really wants it dead (which he should).
MinscS2 wrote: If you're comparing Bullgryns with how many Infantry Squads you can get for the same price, you're comparing apples to oranges.
Bullgryns don't shoot, but they are though, really tough for their points. A Bullgryn with Slab and Maul "pays" 14 points per T5 2+ wound.
They are also hit hard, really hard. Putting them up against 1 wound MEQ's is a bad example, because that's pretty much their worst target.
Against everything else though, be it Primaris Marines, GEQ's, TEQ's, MC's or Vehicles, they are outright nasty.
They can also get a 1+ armoursave pretty easily with psychic powers.
If they die to shooting, that just means that your opponent isn't shooting your other heavy stuff.
I've played with 6 Bullgryns in every game in 8th so far, and they've never been wiped out. Decimated yes, but never wiped out. With that said I used Bullgryns alot in 7th as well.
How do you equip your Bullgryns? The Maul seems like a no-brainer over the grenade gauntlet, but what kind of shields?
Ive heard people use 4 slabshields en 2 brute shields. Eat small arms fire with the slabs and heavy hitting stuff with the brute shields. While this might wound the brute shield guy and force him to take small arms fire, high dmg weapons usually do D3, 3 or D6dmg , which means he is most likely dead anyway if he fails his save.
And while a Psyker seems like an obvious support character for them, whats your take in the Priest? Giving them all +1 attack sounds wuite good, but is it worth the priests point cost?
Bruteshields are nice for soaking that Lascannon shot, but I prefer Slabshields when combined with Psychic Barrier (+1 to saving throws.)
However, the latest FAQ clarified that this also increases your invuln, so now Bullgryns can get a 3++ with the Bruteshields as well.
So far in 8th I've run them with Slabshields only (1+ is better or equal to a 4++ against anything but AP4 and better), but now i might actually go with one or two Bruteshields mixed in since they clarified that in the FAQ.
As for the Priest, I have yet to actually try one in 8th. It seems I always have better things to spend those points on. The Primaris Psyker has replaced him as the Bullgryn-buffer. I'm gonna try field one the next time I play with Bullgryns though, and preferably I'll have some Infantry Squads with powerweapons in them nearby as well to make extra use of his aura.
So I found it odd they only chose 7 space marine chapters for tactics. So I wonder if this is deliberate to give each faction 7 "chapters". Orks coincidentally have 7 clans with freebooters. So which 7 regiments do you think guards will have?
Cadian
Catachan
Vostroyan
Valhallan
Steel legion
Mordian
Tallarn
Are my guesses. Which leaves out praetorian, which haven't had models in a long time. (And dkok and Elysian which fw will have to do) Or do you think gw will just do 8+ regiments for guard?
It will be good to see how they expand necron dynasties, tyranid hive fleets, and tau septs to create 7 chapters for each.
gungo wrote: So I found it odd they only chose 7 space marine chapters for tactics.
Not that odd, it's the exact same 7 chapters that was in the 7th Ed and 6th Ed codex.
I don't think every army will get the same number of "chapters".
There are for instance 5 major Eldar Craftworlds (6 if you count Altansar) and 9 Chaos Legions. Not sure how many "named" hive fleets there are, but I don't think it's 7.
With that said, it would be nice if AM got so many different regiments to choose from.
While alaitoc, bieltan, iyanden, saimhann, ulthwe are the main craft worlds. It's not as if Altansar isn't popular in lore and ilkaithe would be a great way to bring bone singers into the game or the many other craftworlds.
MinscS2 wrote: If you're comparing Bullgryns with how many Infantry Squads you can get for the same price, you're comparing apples to oranges.
Bullgryns don't shoot, but they are though, really tough for their points. A Bullgryn with Slab and Maul "pays" 14 points per T5 2+ wound.
They are also hit hard, really hard. Putting them up against 1 wound MEQ's is a bad example, because that's pretty much their worst target.
Against everything else though, be it Primaris Marines, GEQ's, TEQ's, MC's or Vehicles, they are outright nasty.
They can also get a 1+ armoursave pretty easily with psychic powers.
If they die to shooting, that just means that your opponent isn't shooting your other heavy stuff.
I've played with 6 Bullgryns in every game in 8th so far, and they've never been wiped out. Decimated yes, but never wiped out. With that said I used Bullgryns alot in 7th as well.
How do you equip your Bullgryns? The Maul seems like a no-brainer over the grenade gauntlet, but what kind of shields?
Ive heard people use 4 slabshields en 2 brute shields. Eat small arms fire with the slabs and heavy hitting stuff with the brute shields. While this might wound the brute shield guy and force him to take small arms fire, high dmg weapons usually do D3, 3 or D6dmg , which means he is most likely dead anyway if he fails his save.
And while a Psyker seems like an obvious support character for them, whats your take in the Priest? Giving them all +1 attack sounds wuite good, but is it worth the priests point cost?
Bruteshields are nice for soaking that Lascannon shot, but I prefer Slabshields when combined with Psychic Barrier (+1 to saving throws.)
However, the latest FAQ clarified that this also increases your invuln, so now Bullgryns can get a 3++ with the Bruteshields as well.
So far in 8th I've run them with Slabshields only (1+ is better or equal to a 4++ against anything but AP4 and better), but now i might actually go with one or two Bruteshields mixed in since they clarified that in the FAQ.
As for the Priest, I have yet to actually try one in 8th. It seems I always have better things to spend those points on. The Primaris Psyker has replaced him as the Bullgryn-buffer. I'm gonna try field one the next time I play with Bullgryns though, and preferably I'll have some Infantry Squads with powerweapons in them nearby as well to make extra use of his aura.
At 35 points, I think you're better off buying another ogryn if they're on foot. But if you've got room in the Valkyrie, seems reasonable. Rerolling 4+ isn't terrible, give him a power axe I guess? Eviscerator is too expensive for what it does in my opinion. It costs twice what a powerfist does for only one more ap.
gungo wrote: While alaitoc, bieltan, iyanden, saimhann, ulthwe are the main craft worlds. It's not as if Altansar isn't popular in lore and ilkaithe would be a great way to bring bone singers into the game or the many other craftworlds.
Or Yme-loc for superheavies or gravtank 'tactics'.
There is a constant call for rules to represent individual regiments, and GW did that somewhat successfully in the 3.5 codex, with the doctrines. So, you could buy little rules for squads based on what doctrines you took, and each regiment could be different.
GW moved away from that, choosing instead to have a single list, with regiment/craftworld/chapter determined by the choices a player made. So, an Ork player in 4th edition could build a Goff Army by taking extra Nobs, while adding the Kult of Speed special character allowed warbikes to be troops.
Now that GW is again providing chapter tactics, coupled with the keyword system, this indicates that there might be rules to distinguish different regiments of the IG. Ideally, I would keep regiments as just a way of group special characters and possibly strategems. Instead, I would suggest that they add a new keyword for regiment type: line, light, mechanized, airdrop, etc. After all, not all Catachan regiments fight in the same way.
I don't agree with that, as you're fundamentally unable to actually play many variations with the current GW imperial guard.
Almost all of your support is mechanized. You have one choice of Airborne troops, three if we count Scions (which are a distinct regiment in and of themselves). Light regiments does not have any meaning at all, but light infantry more or less restricts it to well, infantry without heavier support. Line infantry regiments would require support GW does not produce (modern divisional artillery is 105-155 mm). Unless GW actually starts producing FW models or make some new variants, we will never see these in the codex, an GW does not really make rules for FW models (or take them into consideration).
Right now, you can play mechanized infantry (infantry with transports) with armoured or mechanized support, standard infantry with possible armoured or mechanized support, or playing entirely armoured regiments. If we get stratagems for having no tanks or something like that, it would just be a massive restriction on what we can bring whereas Space Marines are free to bring whatever they want from the codex.
Aenarian wrote: I don't agree with that, as you're fundamentally unable to actually play many variations with the current GW imperial guard.
Almost all of your support is mechanized. You have one choice of Airborne troops, three if we count Scions (which are a distinct regiment in and of themselves). Light regiments does not have any meaning at all, but light infantry more or less restricts it to well, infantry without heavier support. Line infantry regiments would require support GW does not produce (modern divisional artillery is 105-155 mm). Unless GW actually starts producing FW models or make some new variants, we will never see these in the codex, an GW does not really make rules for FW models (or take them into consideration).
Right now, you can play mechanized infantry (infantry with transports) with armoured or mechanized support, standard infantry with possible armoured or mechanized support, or playing entirely armoured regiments. If we get stratagems for having no tanks or something like that, it would just be a massive restriction on what we can bring whereas Space Marines are free to bring whatever they want from the codex.
I mean, you can use Forge World stuff. I think if you include that the number of regiments reflected goes up dramatically.
I play a Superheavy Tank Regiment, for example, and don't expect to get anything from the codex at all.
Yeah, and I use Forge World. But I don't think that GW will provide for other than their semi- or fully mechanized playstyle. I would be content if they just copypasted the old doctrines (without points cost perhaps), and you could create some archetypes from that.
I am already well provided because I have my "regmental tactics" in that I get Cult of Sacrifice and WS3+, as well as a few other bits and bobs. I would like some additional rules like Forlorn Hope from IA12, and unique units such as Combat Engineer Hades and WS3+ artillery crew, but hey, I'm happy right now. I want people who play only using the codex to also be happy, and I don't think there are many ways that can be done if we just consider the present plastic model range because lets be honest, GW will not provide anything for FW units as it currently stands. They included Medusa and Griffon in a previous codex, and then they removed them the next edition.
Cothonian wrote: I think I'll try rolling with a unit of Bullgryns, see how it works out. I must admit, I haven't actually used a dedicated melee unit in years! Going to be weird.
Weird but cool! BLOOD FOR THE... ahem. Emperor. That's what I meant.
I'd really like to try 2 units of 5 all-maul Bullgryns in a Crassus, with Straken and a Priest. That's 62 S7 Ap1 D2 attacks on the charge from the big boys. Only problem I see is I don't think the Crassus is durable enough to weather a round of shooting if your opponent goes first and really wants it dead (which he should).
Let's up the ante a bit here, go airborne! Three Valkyries should be enough... Now I want a Crassus too though! lol
I'm wary of Bullgryns simply because they concentrate points too much for my liking.
Just personal preference but, aside from the occasional character, I prefer having several weaker squads to one big, expensive one.
That's what I typically do. I'm more so looking at the Bullgryns as a fun option. (So much damage to be done, so few models needed)
gungo wrote: So I found it odd they only chose 7 space marine chapters for tactics. So I wonder if this is deliberate to give each faction 7 "chapters". Orks coincidentally have 7 clans with freebooters. So which 7 regiments do you think guards will have?
Cadian
Catachan
Vostroyan
Valhallan
Steel legion
Mordian
Tallarn
Are my guesses. Which leaves out praetorian, which haven't had models in a long time. (And dkok and Elysian which fw will have to do) Or do you think gw will just do 8+ regiments for guard?
It will be good to see how they expand necron dynasties, tyranid hive fleets, and tau septs to create 7 chapters for each.
I would be surprised if we saw "Regimental Tactics" for anything besides Cadian, Catachan and MAYBE Steel Legion. The model lines for each of the other regiments is woefully incomplete or out of print at this point. It took some serious eBaying to collect my Tallarn army and have something that resembles options. I can guarantee that GW doesn't want to encourage people buying their models from second hand sources, with their fix of if something doesn't have a kit, it doesn't exist. I am fully expecting to have to choose the regimental doctrine of my Tallarn to be either Cadian or Catachan if there are any regiment specific strategems sadly.
What do you guys think is a good # of drops to aim for?
I'm building a Scion (Kasrkin) list right now and I have it down to 10 drops. Lowest I can go is 9. Had to sub out my Vulture to get my # of drops down :(
I have the same problem right now that guard are crushing other armies. I brought what I thought too be a toned down guard list the last few fights (Tau, death guard, grey knights) and o it was not fun. Short of bringing armored sentinels for every model, I don't feel like I can tone it down much more. This edition was so good to so many units in the guard.
Smotejob wrote: I have the same problem right now that guard are crushing other armies. I brought what I thought too be a toned down guard list the last few fights (Tau, death guard, grey knights) and o it was not fun. Short of bringing armored sentinels for every model, what am I supposed to do?
I think the real problem is people haven't adapted yet to hordes. 8th edition is all about alpha strike, or surviving the alpha, people are still bringing really inefficient options. I haven't lost yet against my local marine player, because he keeps bringing "fair" lists, people need to stop bringing varied forces and understand that the only thing that matters now is Kill power. Toughness isn't a thing anymore. If you don't have 12+ lascannon equivalents, and the ability to kill 40+ infantry a turn at the same time you can't compete. I think the reason AM is getting a rep for being good, is that Guard forces you to do that because of how cheap stuff is.
I have gotten the creeping feeling that this edition, even more than previous ones, sort of rewards you for just taking the best unit in your codex and spamming it as hard as you can. Not really any need to make room for anything else. Worst case, you spam two types of units so that you have the one weakness from your first spam choice mitigated.
See: Conscripts and Basilisks. Strike Squads. That elite Sisters squad that people keep talking about using a lot. Genestealers. I'm sure there's more.
They really need to bring back the FoC or build in army comp in such a way that you can't just cherry pick the best unit in your army and ignore everything else.
I think the real problem is people haven't adapted yet to hordes. 8th edition is all about alpha strike, or surviving the alpha, people are still bringing really inefficient options. I haven't lost yet against my local marine player, because he keeps bringing "fair" lists, people need to stop bringing varied forces and understand that the only thing that matters now is Kill power. Toughness isn't a thing anymore. If you don't have 12+ lascannon equivalents, and the ability to kill 40+ infantry a turn at the same time you can't compete. I think the reason AM is getting a rep for being good, is that Guard forces you to do that because of how cheap stuff is.
I think people might also need to adapt to the new transport rules. Or, more accurately, the new transport prices. I had a game against an Ork player today who used a Nob squad and Warboss in a battlewagon and 3 squads of Boyz in Trukks (a similar army to one he used in 7th). The thing is though, those trukks were ~80pts each and the battlewagon was about 200. So, almost half his army was spent on transports.
daedalus wrote: I have gotten the creeping feeling that this edition, even more than previous ones, sort of rewards you for just taking the best unit in your codex and spamming it as hard as you can. Not really any need to make room for anything else. Worst case, you spam two types of units so that you have the one weakness from your first spam choice mitigated.
See: Conscripts and Basilisks. Strike Squads. That elite Sisters squad that people keep talking about using a lot. Genestealers. I'm sure there's more.
I think the problem is that there are so many detachments and such variety of mandatory slots that you can basically fit whatever army you want into one.
My favourite detachment at the moment is the Brigade. You have to include 3 HQs. You have to include 3 Elites. You have to include 6 Troops. You have to include 3 FA units. You have to include 3 HS units. I like it because it actually makes me take stuff that I might not otherwise use in order to fill those slots.
Now, obviously there are quite a few armies that would struggle to fill a Brigade (at least at low-mid point levels), but I wish that the other detachments were effectively scaled down brigades - so one with 2 HQs, 2 Elites, 2 FA, 2 HS and 4 Troops. And one with 1 HQ, 1 Elite, 1 FA, 1 HS and 2 Troops (with the maximum number of each unit also scaled down accordingly).
Of course, doing this would also effectively lock people out of many builds that aren't overpowered.
I think the problem is that there are so many detachments and such variety of mandatory slots that you can basically fit whatever army you want into one.
My favourite detachment at the moment is the Brigade. You have to include 3 HQs. You have to include 3 Elites. You have to include 6 Troops. You have to include 3 FA units. You have to include 3 HS units. I like it because it actually makes me take stuff that I might not otherwise use in order to fill those slots.
Now, obviously there are quite a few armies that would struggle to fill a Brigade (at least at low-mid point levels), but I wish that the other detachments were effectively scaled down brigades - so one with 2 HQs, 2 Elites, 2 FA, 2 HS and 4 Troops. And one with 1 HQ, 1 Elite, 1 FA, 1 HS and 2 Troops (with the maximum number of each unit also scaled down accordingly).
Of course, doing this would also effectively lock people out of many builds that aren't overpowered.
I like your idea and think those should scale like that. I think there should also be some sort of actual cost to the specialized FOCs. And no, only +1 command point is not a cost. They're just encouraging spam right now as it is. Maybe troop choices should get better too? I don't know. I know a lot of people complained about their guardians or whatever back in the dey, but I assume it was just because they were boring.
I guess the alternative is you go back to special characters or special FoC per army that let you fiddle around with the chart, like in 5th and early 6th edition. There's gotta be an easier way of doing it though. Maybe even just "no more than x of any given unit per y points", but that still does stupid things to some armies. Maybe "no more than x of any given non-troop unit per y points", but then people are going to complain because you've broken Deathwing but are still allowing people 4 squads of conscripts.
Weird but cool! BLOOD FOR THE... ahem. Emperor. That's what I meant.
I'd really like to try 2 units of 5 all-maul Bullgryns in a Crassus, with Straken and a Priest. That's 62 S7 Ap1 D2 attacks on the charge from the big boys. Only problem I see is I don't think the Crassus is durable enough to weather a round of shooting if your opponent goes first and really wants it dead (which he should).
Bullgryn's cant benefit from Straken. He only gives +1 attack to Catachan units. Ogryns are Regiment 'Militarum Auxillary'.
I honestly just wouldn't worry about drops as foot guard, because no matter how low you go you won't be getting first turn. So just either plan around going second, or convince your group to roll off for first turn the old fashioned way.
Sure, Valkyries and Vendettas can squadron up, so you can get 3 Valkyries/Vendettas and any combination of up to 36 infantry models (6 SWS, 3 infantry squads and 6 officers, 9 command squads, etc.) in a single drop. But that's a lot of points to pay for a deployment manipulation gimmick.
Now, if you're playing a tank list, then squadrons could allow you to catch your opponent off-guard with a surprisingly small deployment footprint. And a superheavy list is functionally equivalent to a Knight list.
Right now I take fun lists with units I rarely got to play with the last 2-3 editions.
I bought 2 boxes of bullgryns I never played but built because they were cool looking. I get to play with them now.
I was never into spamming the same unit so I only have about 3x of each model. Death strikes I finally use for fun.
Chimeras I still use w melta vet squads and they aren't all that
I have 10 dkok riders I use as rough riders.
Hell hounds
Basic infantry w command squads with standards because they look cool.
I'm not spamming company commanders, scions or taking more then 40 conscripts (because all I have is 40 conscripts). I use my 4 sentinels 1 of which is a power lifter.
So basically playing stuff I owned and always wanted to play with even if I haven't painted them yet. I don't think this gravy train will last forever.
Out of curiosity, do any of you mind that you can only customise weapons on your characters? (I know that this is just an index, but would you mind if the codex was the same?)
I like your idea and think those should scale like that. I think there should also be some sort of actual cost to the specialized FOCs. And no, only +1 command point is not a cost. They're just encouraging spam right now as it is. Maybe troop choices should get better too? I don't know. I know a lot of people complained about their guardians or whatever back in the dey, but I assume it was just because they were boring.
I was actually thinking of just removing the specialised FoCs.
Otherwise, I agree that there should be a higher cost for using them. Honestly, my IG armies usually have about 12 Command Points and I rarely use any of them.
You could perhaps only be allowed 1 of the specialised detachments per army?
I'm in the camp of bringing gimped IG lists as well. I'm currently investing in scions to keep the model count down and I'll probably make use of tauroxes to transport them instead of deep striking all of them.
50 conscripts
3x infantry (w weapon team)
2x scions w. Plasma
Astropath
Priest
Eversor assassin
Hellhound
2x scout sentinel (flamer)
Manticore
2x Mortars weapons teams
Then build from there... Lot of fun so far and does really well. Building from there I can either go more guard for anti tank, or bring a more elite Ally. Lots of fun. 11 command points. Good staying power and decent fire power.
), but the Macharius is definately on my "to-get-list" in the future.
