50 conscripts
3x infantry (w weapon team)
2x scions w. Plasma
Astropath
Priest
Eversor assassin
Hellhound
2x scout sentinel (flamer)
Manticore
2x Mortars weapons teams
Then build from there... Lot of fun so far and does really well. Building from there I can either go more guard for anti tank, or bring a more elite Ally. Lots of fun. 11 command points. Good staying power and decent fire power.
Here's a question for the chat here: what're everyone's thoughts on Manticores vs Manticore platforms? Platforms are heavy d6 S9 -3 and damage d6 with a very long range. Compared to a normal manticore it's half the shots and double the damage but better AP value and a little bit cheaper. Felt worth it to me personally because it's a little better anti tank and can take 3 in one HS slot.
jifel wrote: Here's a question for the chat here: what're everyone's thoughts on Manticores vs Manticore platforms? Platforms are heavy d6 S9 -3 and damage d6 with a very long range. Compared to a normal manticore it's half the shots and double the damage but better AP value and a little bit cheaper. Felt worth it to me personally because it's a little better anti tank and can take 3 in one HS slot.
They're actually quite different animals for one big reason: the battery's manticore missiles don't have the "one per turn" restriction, so you can launch all of those puppies in a single volley. Of course, after that the battery is completely useless unless you managed to deploy it on an objective.
So if you need something to alpha strike enemy tanks/monsters off the board, take the batteries. Just be aware that they are essentially one-trick ponies, and don't get much of a discount over the Manticore tank.
The Manticore Platform is basically armed with 4D6 one-shot lascannons, with a much higher range for 120 points. (80 + 4 missiles). The Manticore Tank is armed with 2d6 S10 AP-2 D3, but it also does not require line of sight, for 133 points. It is also tougher with better save and 4 more wounds.
I think they're pretty well balanced. The Platform is worse against non-vehicles because it has less shots and more damage, and will frequently overkill. Against vehicles, it's slightly better because of its AP and because S10 very rarely matters. It also has the benefit of being able to fire everything in one volley (although I think that might get FAQ'd if they do another take).
So what one to take is dependent on what kind of situation you think you will face. Do you need very dedicated AT? Take the platform. Need a jack of all trades? Take the Manticore tank.
It can be worth noting that the platform would only really destroy one average heavy tank, with about 14 wounds caused, so it'll pay for itself and then do nothing.
Aenarian wrote: The Manticore Platform is basically armed with 4D6 one-shot lascannons, with a much higher range for 120 points. (80 + 4 missiles). The Manticore Tank is armed with 2d6 S10 AP-2 D3, but it also does not require line of sight, for 133 points. It is also tougher with better save and 4 more wounds.
I think they're pretty well balanced. The Platform is worse against non-vehicles because it has less shots and more damage, and will frequently overkill. Against vehicles, it's slightly better because of its AP and because S10 very rarely matters. It also has the benefit of being able to fire everything in one volley (although I think that might get FAQ'd if they do another take).
So what one to take is dependent on what kind of situation you think you will face. Do you need very dedicated AT? Take the platform. Need a jack of all trades? Take the Manticore tank.
It can be worth noting that the platform would only really destroy one average heavy tank, with about 14 wounds caused, so it'll pay for itself and then do nothing.
Now combine it with a Trojan and you get 20.46 wounds on turn 1 against something like a Leman Russ.
You even have 19% chance of one-shotting an Imperial Knight.
I've been pondering whether it would even be fair to bring to a friendly casual game.
Aenarian wrote: The Manticore Platform is basically armed with 4D6 one-shot lascannons, with a much higher range for 120 points. (80 + 4 missiles). The Manticore Tank is armed with 2d6 S10 AP-2 D3, but it also does not require line of sight, for 133 points. It is also tougher with better save and 4 more wounds.
I think they're pretty well balanced. The Platform is worse against non-vehicles because it has less shots and more damage, and will frequently overkill. Against vehicles, it's slightly better because of its AP and because S10 very rarely matters. It also has the benefit of being able to fire everything in one volley (although I think that might get FAQ'd if they do another take).
So what one to take is dependent on what kind of situation you think you will face. Do you need very dedicated AT? Take the platform. Need a jack of all trades? Take the Manticore tank.
It can be worth noting that the platform would only really destroy one average heavy tank, with about 14 wounds caused, so it'll pay for itself and then do nothing.
Now combine it with a Trojan and you get 20.46 wounds on turn 1 against something like a Leman Russ.
You even have 19% chance of one-shotting an Imperial Knight.
I've been pondering whether it would even be fair to bring to a friendly casual game.
Aenarian wrote: The Manticore Platform is basically armed with 4D6 one-shot lascannons, with a much higher range for 120 points. (80 + 4 missiles). The Manticore Tank is armed with 2d6 S10 AP-2 D3, but it also does not require line of sight, for 133 points. It is also tougher with better save and 4 more wounds.
I think they're pretty well balanced. The Platform is worse against non-vehicles because it has less shots and more damage, and will frequently overkill. Against vehicles, it's slightly better because of its AP and because S10 very rarely matters. It also has the benefit of being able to fire everything in one volley (although I think that might get FAQ'd if they do another take).
So what one to take is dependent on what kind of situation you think you will face. Do you need very dedicated AT? Take the platform. Need a jack of all trades? Take the Manticore tank.
It can be worth noting that the platform would only really destroy one average heavy tank, with about 14 wounds caused, so it'll pay for itself and then do nothing.
Now combine it with a Trojan and you get 20.46 wounds on turn 1 against something like a Leman Russ
You even have 19% chance of one-shotting an Imperial Knight.
Yes, and the Trojan itself is pretty expensive, with only a few units being great to pair with, such as Manticore Platforms (which honestly shouldn't be vehicles in the first case). I probably wouldn't hold my breath for actually killing a Knight because of all the shield and randomness, but you will at least damage it enough. You also need to actually have LoS, with might be difficult because of terrain, and a Knight-player is likely to have first turn.
But in all honesty, this is just a case of broken interactions just like Conscripts and them synergizing very well with orders, or the unpatched Defence Searchlight. Remove the vehicle keyword from all platforms which still have it.
Now combine it with a Trojan and you get 20.46 wounds on turn 1 against something like a Leman Russ
You even have 19% chance of one-shotting an Imperial Knight.
Yes, and the Trojan itself is pretty expensive, with only a few units being great to pair with, such as Manticore Platforms (which honestly shouldn't be vehicles in the first case). I probably wouldn't hold my breath for actually killing a Knight because of all the shield and randomness, but you will at least damage it enough. You also need to actually have LoS, with might be difficult because of terrain, and a Knight-player is likely to have first turn.
But in all honesty, this is just a case of broken interactions just like Conscripts and benefitting more from orders, or the unpatched Defence Searchlight. Remove the vehicle keyword from all platforms which still have it.
Why would you remove the vehicle keyword from platforms? Why should static artillery not get to benefit from a forward observer vehicle?
If the Manticore + Trojan combo is overpowered, the solution would be to nerf the already very good Manticore, not limit the usability of the rather expensive Trojan.
Do people have any recommendations in terms of target priority for AM against specific enemies based off experience with the 8th edition? A top 5 kind of thing. The removal of things that will cause movement buffs/attack buffs/ cause havoc with my tanks etc. I've only played Orks but..
Orks
1) Weirdboy (especially if its a foot slogger army). Taking him out slowed the entire army down. The opposite side of this is that he causes the orks to arrive piecemeal into a line of bayonets/FRFSRF/ a rough rider charge.
2)Anything with a custom forcefield (Orks should not be allowed saves against my big guns)
3) Tankbustas: Terrifyingly good against tanks especially if loaded into a battlewagon... I get its in the name but still...
Automatically Appended Next Post: I get this is 2 short of a top 5 but its just to get the ball rolling.
But the Trojan is already quite balanced, as is the Manticore (although it could stand two minor nerfs, see the next parapgraph). What we're doing by removing the interaction is removing a possibly broken first strike combination for game reasons. Of course it could be argued that fluffwise, an observer vehicle would benefit a static platform, but the Trojan is not a forward observer vehicle. The Trojan is basically a transport for ammunition and used for towing platforms. You might as well ask why the MoO does not benefit any static artillery. Furthermore, a vehicle is usually a mobile machine, so static emplacements would not be vehicles in general use.
You have a Manticore Platform which is about as good as a normal Manticore, so nerfing it very much would probably make it unusable. If we begin by making it able to fire one missile per shooting phase, it still remains quite easy to kill and not dealing extreme amounts of damage, about 4 Lascannon teams worth. Is this too good? Maybe, but then we can increase the points cost a bit. In this case, the Trojan combo might be balanced. Should one Manticore worth ~150 points be able to kill a tank during play? Yes, with all four missiles.
As you said, it has a decent although not spectacular chance of killing a Knight. A Knight costs more than double the price of the Manticore and Trojan combo, so even getting it to 12 wounds would be a very good result. Making a 220 points combo able to actually kill one Knight is broken. Then, we can consider that if we have two Manticore Platforms, we only need one trojan and hope the second one survives 'til turn two. Killing or crippling two knights for 350 points? Talk about efficiency!
So, if we actually balance the Manticore Platform better (i.e. one shot per turn to start with) the Trojan combination would be balanced. If further balancing is necessary, increase the cost of the platform. In this scenario, no need to break the combo. Otherwise, an easy fix would to actually do it.
In fact, I don't even understand why they made the Trojan as it is. Lorewise, it has no actual use with vehicles and should probably give its buffs to artillery instead.
Edit: I think you should know that I'm not advocating of breaking this combination just because, but its a quick and easy fix and would prevent some possibly broken combiations. I think a more elegant one would be as you said balancing the Manticore a bit better, but that would be more complicated. I also don't understandt the way they have gone with static guns being vehicles. Fixed artillery are not considered vehicles in any sense of the word.
Edit2: I also think they should probably limit the Trojan to normal vehicles as its currently silly when used with superheavies, granting 50% more firepower for 20% of the cost. In this case, it could also stand to be 10-15 points cheaper (or about 50% the cost of a Leman Russ).
I played an all-tank list and managed to win a tournament this past weekend, so I wanted to share my thoughts. My list was built to minimize drops - at 6 drops I had fewer than any of my opponents.
Super-Heavy Auxiliary Shadowsword - One set Lascannon + Heavy Flamer Sponsons, Heavy Stubber
My thoughts, in list order:
Pask - Didn't get to do much because he was tied up in CC constantly, mostly fell back and overwatched. That said, he overwatched beautifully, as the punisher cannon basically guaranteed a couple wounds through sheer volume. The one turn he did shoot he chewed through half an 8-man SM bike squad. Still, a no-brainer for 10 points over a Tank Commander unless you need to use a non-<Cadia> regiment. At the very least he was threatening enough that 2 opponents suicided Helldrakes into melee keep him from shooting.
Punishers - I had a great time with this configuration. Moving around 10" at full firepower felt great, and they were a huge pain to charge because of their great overwatch. I will say I am a bit disappointed in their durability. Even at +2T and +1W over the Basilisks, they did not feel significantly tougher, despite being significantly more expensive. Hard to say whether their durability is low or Basilisk durability is high, but I hope they get a small cost reduction or slightly better staying power.
Basilisks - A gold standard for reliability. Consistently puts 2d3 wounds on anything, anywhere, anytime. Great against anything with multiple wounds, serviceable against most everything else. More durable than you'd think, especially in an armor-saturation army. Probably terrible against hordes, but I didn't face many. They were fantastic for driving to objectives once I had whittled down enemy forces. Highly recommended, but definitely back them up with anti-horde stuff.
Hellhounds - The opposite of reliable, these guys were feast or famine. The 1d6 turret is so swingy that it's really hard to predict how well these guys will do in any given shooting phase. I brought them hoping they'd be anti-horde tools and they're pretty definitively not that, as they just don't push enough wounds. They're much better against stuff like bikes or thunderwolves than they are against regular infantry; they actually seem to overlap a lot with Basilisks in terms of ideal targets. Still, being able to zip around 12" at a time and fire at full effectiveness was nice. Just don't expect these guys to chew through cheap infantry.
Shadowsword - I saved the best for last. The Shadowsword was an absolute all-star from start to finish. I didn't care much for the twin heavy bolters or the lascannons, but the volcano cannon and especially the heavy flamers put in a ton of work. The main gun deleted a big enemy target per turn, as it claimed a Vindicator, a Land Raider, a Forge Fiend, and even a whole Renegade Knight each in a single turn of shooting. I got very lucky to one-shot the Knight and Raider, but the mere potential for that kind of damage is amazing. This was one 1d6 weapon that I didn't mind much at all, though it helped immensely that I saved nearly all my command points to re-roll that shot number.
The twin heavy flamer sponsons deserve their own paragraph. If you're on the fence about fielding your super-heavy with these, just do it. Yes, it's a lot of points, but it makes your super-heavy an absolute terror in close quarters, not to mention suicidal to charge. It means your super-heavy is still extremely dangerous to be around even if it's crippled and shooting everything else on 6+. These put in just as much work as the volcano cannon over the course of my 3 games, and the volcano cannon was no slouch. Two sets of sponsons is probably overkill, but I highly recommend taking at least one. They are simply a great buy.
Overall, if I was to revise the list I'd probably replace the Hellhounds with some sort of Infantry screen, as keeping stuff out of melee with my tanks proved challenging. It'd also help a small bit with anti-infantry firepower, which I felt was very concentrated into the Russes and Shadowsword (ironically) in this list.
Anyway, I hope that gives some insight into those units and helps you all with your future list-building.
Great to hear! I might try playing a bit more with my Shadowsword.
Also, if you want more reliability for the Hellhound, the Forge World Artemia Pattern Hellound has 2d6 discard lowest for number of shots, for 7 points more than a standard one.
Aenarian wrote: Also, if you want more reliability for the Hellhound, the Forge World Artemia Pattern Hellound has 2d6 discard lowest for number of shots, for 7 points more than a standard one.
Yeah, I would take that upgrade anytime. This particular event was not allowing Forge World models, or I would have definitely fielded two of those instead. The 2d6 discard lowest would hugely help with their reliability, but I actually don't think it will change their ideal targets much. They won't make a significant dent in hordes, and will be better served hunting for multi-wound infantry.
I'm looking to the Taurox w/ gatling cannon, the Vulture w/ twin punishers, or maybe even the Immolator w/ Immolation flamer for more vehicle-based anti-horde firepower in the future.
Well, the 1d6 shots at D2 was a weird decision. I think that 2d6 shots at D1 would have been preferable (with 4d6 pick 2 highest for the Artemia), as its considered an anti-horde weapon.
I play in a hyper-competitive club where, I've noticed since 8th came out, spam is the name of the game: Spamhammer40k. Even more so then 7th I think.
So far I've played against spamming stormravens, spamming dual autocannon dreads with a 4+ invuln and, shocker, spamming IG Russes and Bassies/Manticore/Wyverns. Against the flyers my newly acquired shadowsword literally blew up turn one taking out a chunk of my own hapless infantry - granted my opponent's entire army had to shoot at pretty much only shadowsword but that was 1/4 of my army gone turn one. Against IG I ran two knights with my guard and both were gone by turn two. Did well against the dreads as I went heavier infantry and 4 scion plasma command squads. Played a book mission and was winning by turn 5 but, naturally, we went to turn 7 at which point it was a tie on primaries and secondaries and finally lost to points destroyed as I ignored his dreads in favor of trying to hold the only two objectives on the board.
Admittedly most of my lists have been more me experimenting with different units rather than playing the latest net list (so glad I didn't invest in another two storm ravens now). I like to think I lean more towards being a casual player vs WAAC who crawls off in a corner and pouts when one of their cheesier units stubs a toe.
That being said does anyone else have a "boilerplate" list they've been running that they feel will stand up to the spammy lists being put forth lately? I'm going to Nova in a couple of weeks and really need to nail down what I want my IG to look like modelwise. I have 2 bassies, 3 valks, 3 russes, 1 manticore, 100 or so infantry, 1 HWS/heavy bolter, 2 HWS/lascannon, 2 HWS/autocannon, 1 HWS/mortar, lots of chimeras, 4 plasma scion command squads and primes, 3 wyverns, 2 scout sentinals, 2 armored sentinals, 1 shadowsword, moo, astropath, fleet guy, couple of commissars, command squad with sniper rifles, 3 defense searchlights.
Great to hear! I might try playing a bit more with my Shadowsword.
Also, if you want more reliability for the Hellhound, the Forge World Artemia Pattern Hellound has 2d6 discard lowest for number of shots, for 7 points more than a standard one.
CaptainO wrote: Do people have any recommendations in terms of target priority for AM against specific enemies based off experience with the 8th edition? A top 5 kind of thing. The removal of things that will cause movement buffs/attack buffs/ cause havoc with my tanks etc. I've only played Orks but..
Orks
1) Weirdboy (especially if its a foot slogger army). Taking him out slowed the entire army down. The opposite side of this is that he causes the orks to arrive piecemeal into a line of bayonets/FRFSRF/ a rough rider charge.
2)Anything with a custom forcefield (Orks should not be allowed saves against my big guns)
3) Tankbustas: Terrifyingly good against tanks especially if loaded into a battlewagon... I get its in the name but still...
Automatically Appended Next Post: I get this is 2 short of a top 5 but its just to get the ball rolling
Anything with fly. Anything with long range anti armour. (Depending on the amount of bubble you have). It really depends on what you have.
necron99 wrote: I play in a hyper-competitive club where, I've noticed since 8th came out, spam is the name of the game: Spamhammer40k. Even more so then 7th I think.
So far I've played against spamming stormravens, spamming dual autocannon dreads with a 4+ invuln and, shocker, spamming IG Russes and Bassies/Manticore/Wyverns. Against the flyers my newly acquired shadowsword literally blew up turn one taking out a chunk of my own hapless infantry - granted my opponent's entire army had to shoot at pretty much only shadowsword but that was 1/4 of my army gone turn one. Against IG I ran two knights with my guard and both were gone by turn two. Did well against the dreads as I went heavier infantry and 4 scion plasma command squads. Played a book mission and was winning by turn 5 but, naturally, we went to turn 7 at which point it was a tie on primaries and secondaries and finally lost to points destroyed as I ignored his dreads in favor of trying to hold the only two objectives on the board.
Admittedly most of my lists have been more me experimenting with different units rather than playing the latest net list (so glad I didn't invest in another two storm ravens now). I like to think I lean more towards being a casual player vs WAAC who crawls off in a corner and pouts when one of their cheesier units stubs a toe.
That being said does anyone else have a "boilerplate" list they've been running that they feel will stand up to the spammy lists being put forth lately? I'm going to Nova in a couple of weeks and really need to nail down what I want my IG to look like modelwise. I have 2 bassies, 3 valks, 3 russes, 1 manticore, 100 or so infantry, 1 HWS/heavy bolter, 2 HWS/lascannon, 2 HWS/autocannon, 1 HWS/mortar, lots of chimeras, 4 plasma scion command squads and primes, 3 wyverns, 2 scout sentinals, 2 armored sentinals, 1 shadowsword, moo, astropath, fleet guy, couple of commissars, command squad with sniper rifles, 3 defense searchlights.
My core always includes 50 conscripts, 3x guardsmen squads with plasma and Las Cannon, basilisk, mortar heavy weapons squads, and some Scions.
My strategy for list building thus far is redundancy and barely any armor. Typically, I can keep a Basilisk and Wyvern/Hydra out of LoS so I offer the enemy 0 worthwhile targets for their anti armor weapons which brings me great joy. Then I just sit back and shoot and use Scions and rough Riders to cap OBJs or hit HVTs.
Thanks @Colonel Cross so what's the magic behind conscripts? I admit that I sort of shelved my IG during 6th & 7th in favor of my Necrons but 8th seems to have put a lot more life in IG. So I don't know maybe conscripts have been a thing all along - I just haven't seen them played locally.
I just use them to be a nuisance, board control, and psychological warfare.
I managed to tie up almost an entire space wolf wave for 2 turns by spacing them out, assaulting, surviving, then using orders to fall back and shoot. This works great against elite armies. It would only hold up for 1 turn against orks or Tyranids. They're a speed bump to protect your social and heavy weapons or bubble wrap your tanks if you have any. They're also great for denying deep striking units.
necron99 wrote: Thanks @Colonel Cross so what's the magic behind conscripts? I admit that I sort of shelved my IG during 6th & 7th in favor of my Necrons but 8th seems to have put a lot more life in IG. So I don't know maybe conscripts have been a thing all along - I just haven't seen them played locally.
They're very cheap and you can give 50 of them an order with one platoon commander.
You can use them for effective bubble wrapping, or for order efficiency (not really both, since bubble wrapping requires them to be spread out and they won't be in range of the target anymore). Give them a commissar and they'll stick around a long time.
Point for point shooting wise, they're worse than normal guardsman unless you are giving them orders, at which point they become more efficient at 3.1 hits per point versus 2.4 points per hit.
So if you can get all 50 in range of a target, they're 30% more points efficient. But without orders they're worse per point. And they're only ever shooting pathetic s3 ap0 lasguns too. They get no special or heavy weapons, and no sergeants. The mathematical breakeven point for conscripts versus guards with orders is 20. After 20 you're saving points on orders while getting the same number of hits. Unless I hosed my math up.
If you were to run some Sentinels for infantry support/vehicle escort, would you guys prefer Missile Launchers or Lascannons? Or does the HF Sentinel do its job well enough on its own?
Zuri Prime wrote: If you were to run some Sentinels for infantry support/vehicle escort, would you guys prefer Missile Launchers or Lascannons? Or does the HF Sentinel do its job well enough on its own?
I dont like running any weapons that will be hitting on 5's (assuming moving). Youll end up being disappointed. Run Heavy Flamers. Run them towards the enemy. You want them to get charged. Overwatch. Fall back. Get charged again, overwatch again. Etc. Continue until dead.
Look into FW powerlifters too. 10pts a model. Ive had awesome luck with them. I scout moved. Went first. Moved up. charged my opponents demolisher shutting down a pretty big threat to me. Ended up killing it turn 2.
What about Lascannons on Sentinels? Was thinking of using those just because solo platforms are annoying to kill. (I was thinking 4 to 6 Sentinels with Las/HK). Just Scout up into range then start plinking away.
IMO if you're gonna do lascannons on sentinels you should do several of them. Just one or two will set you up for disappointment. They only get one shot, which only hits half the time, and can't get orders to reroll 1s. A trio of armored sentinels with lascannons are basically a more expensive and more durable heavy weapons squad, but in the fast attack slot.
jifel wrote: What about Lascannons on Sentinels? Was thinking of using those just because solo platforms are annoying to kill. (I was thinking 4 to 6 Sentinels with Las/HK). Just Scout up into range then start plinking away.
Not a bad go. But depending on game type you might be giving up easy kill points if you run sentinels solo. Lascannons again, hitting on 4's.
If you want lascannons run Elysian Tarous. 15" movement. same wound and toughness but doesnt suffer the -1 after moving. Gets a 5++ save and can deepstrike.
jifel wrote: What about Lascannons on Sentinels? Was thinking of using those just because solo platforms are annoying to kill. (I was thinking 4 to 6 Sentinels with Las/HK). Just Scout up into range then start plinking away.
Not a bad go. But depending on game type you might be giving up easy kill points if you run sentinels solo. Lascannons again, hitting on 4's.
If you want lascannons run Elysian Tarous. 15" movement. same wound and toughness but doesnt suffer the -1 after moving. Gets a 5++ save and can deepstrike.
Tauros are amazingly good, but I'm actually asking as a Genestealer Cult player... same stats so I figured this was the best place for it. Please ignore the fact that our Heavy Flamers and HK missiles cost more because... reasons? Anyways, my current list has 5 Scout Sentinels but I've yet to test it. Probably gonna start off with Lascannon/HK but I am sorely tempted by the idea of Heavy Flamers
I actually think the best thing to give armored sents is autocannons. You usually get at least one hit per sentinel, and they're five points cheaper than lascannons. I'd never give scouts anything more than a heavy flamer or multilaser, due to 4+ save being kinda bad for a vehicle.
What I'd use them for is as more durable heavy weapons teams. HWTs can be annihilated quickly by long-range shooting, while sentinels take a bit longer to take down and unlike most vehicles don't lose stats as they lose wounds.
That said, mortar spam HWTs looks downright amazing.
Melissia wrote: What I'd use them for is as more durable heavy weapons teams. HWTs can be annihilated quickly by long-range shooting, while sentinels take a bit longer to take down and unlike most vehicles don't lose stats as they lose wounds.
That said, mortar spam HWTs looks downright amazing.
In that case go for it. But maybe take them in groups of 2-3. Just to make it harder for you opponent to get some easy kills and to reduce drops.
Melissia wrote: What I'd use them for is as more durable heavy weapons teams. HWTs can be annihilated quickly by long-range shooting, while sentinels take a bit longer to take down and unlike most vehicles don't lose stats as they lose wounds.
That said, mortar spam HWTs looks downright amazing.
In that case go for it. But maybe take them in groups of 2-3. Just to make it harder for you opponent to get some easy kills and to reduce drops.
Melissia wrote: What I'd use them for is as more durable heavy weapons teams. HWTs can be annihilated quickly by long-range shooting, while sentinels take a bit longer to take down and unlike most vehicles don't lose stats as they lose wounds.
That said, mortar spam HWTs looks downright amazing.
I never liked HWTs. Too easy to kill. That's why I embed 3:1 Heavy Bolters to Autocannons in my regular squads with a lascannon and 2 snipers in my 3 command squads. That said, I am really feeling HWT mortars. Doing the math, they really outperform Wyverns big time. Wow are they cheap!
Question on using Pask....
Seems like everyone still likes Paskisher. I was thinking Vanquisher cannon with lascannon and 2 MMs to kill off the tough stuff. Am I missing something?
Yeah, mortars are I feel the best way to use HWTs this edition.
For that matter-- take a single commander and three HWTs is 111 points, for +1CP, nine mortars, and a commander to give six of those HWTs rerolling 1s. Add a platoon commander and for 131 points you give all three rerolling 1s.
Melissia wrote: What I'd use them for is as more durable heavy weapons teams. HWTs can be annihilated quickly by long-range shooting, while sentinels take a bit longer to take down and unlike most vehicles don't lose stats as they lose wounds.
That said, mortar spam HWTs looks downright amazing.
I never liked HWTs. Too easy to kill. That's why I embed 3:1 Heavy Bolters to Autocannons in my regular squads with a lascannon and 2 snipers in my 3 command squads. That said, I am really feeling HWT mortars. Doing the math, they really outperform Wyverns big time. Wow are they cheap!
Question on using Pask....
Seems like everyone still likes Paskisher. I was thinking Vanquisher cannon with lascannon and 2 MMs to kill off the tough stuff. Am I missing something?
Think the math says that a lascannon is actually better than a vaquisher. But use what you want. Vanq or punisher are both good.
Make sure to run him with meltas and a lascannon. Make use of the BS2
Think the math says that a lascannon is actually better than a vaquisher. But use what you want. Vanq or punisher are both good.
Make sure to run him with meltas and a lascannon. Make use of the BS2
It depends on the target. Against T7 or less, the Vanquisher is better because S8 has the same chance to wound as S9, while the Vanquisher also has 2d6 pick highest for damage (2d6 pick highest is abut ~28% better than 1d6). However, when talking about T8, the Lascannon wounds 33% more (2/3 vs 1/2), so it is in fact better against these targets.
Melissia wrote: Bear in mind in order to get 2d6 pick the highest, normally you have to be using melta at super-short range. So it's pretty nice.
But you don't have to go either-or. Vanquishers can take hull lascannons, and almost always should
Well, it's mostly to prove that the Vanquisher is about as effective as a standard lascannon, whereas it can be argued it should be a little more exciting than one of the most common weapon in the IG arsenal. If a Lascannon is balanced for ~20 points, the Vanquisher is almost balanced for 25 if we're talking about them in a vacuum. Opportunity costs are a thing however, as instead of one hull lascannon and one "lascannon" in the turret, you could pay 15 points more and get two lascannons in the turret, granting you a 50% increase in firepower for <10% increase in cost.
8th game today. Once more, I tabled my opponent. I tried again 6x tempestus command squad + 6x tempestus prime with plasma pistol. Very effective units.
This was only 40% of my 2000 point list. And my 24 DKoK engineers --only 192pts-- were amazing. Did something like 6 wounds on Guilliman.
Melissia wrote: Bear in mind in order to get 2d6 pick the highest, normally you have to be using melta at super-short range. So it's pretty nice.
But you don't have to go either-or. Vanquishers can take hull lascannons, and almost always should
Against another Russ (T8, 3+ save), a Vanquisher will score an average of 0.94 wounds per turn. Compare that to the regular Battle Cannon, at 1.17 wounds per turn. Why take the Vanquisher when the regular old Battle tank is better against both infantry and tanks?
Or why take a Leman Russ at all, the Hellhound is much cheaper and will also inflict 1.17 wounds per turn against an enemy Leman Russ.
http://www.3plusplus.net/2017/06/astra-militarum-tank-weapons-40k-8th-ed/
RenegadeKorps wrote: 8th game today. Once more, I tabled my opponent. I tried again 6x tempestus command squad + 6x tempestus prime with plasma pistol. Very effective units.
This was only 40% of my 2000 point list. And my 24 DKoK engineers --only 192pts-- were amazing. Did something like 6 wounds on Guilliman.
Melissia wrote: What I'd use them for is as more durable heavy weapons teams. HWTs can be annihilated quickly by long-range shooting, while sentinels take a bit longer to take down and unlike most vehicles don't lose stats as they lose wounds.
That said, mortar spam HWTs looks downright amazing.
I never liked HWTs. Too easy to kill. That's why I embed 3:1 Heavy Bolters to Autocannons in my regular squads with a lascannon and 2 snipers in my 3 command squads. That said, I am really feeling HWT mortars. Doing the math, they really outperform Wyverns big time. Wow are they cheap!
Question on using Pask....
Seems like everyone still likes Paskisher. I was thinking Vanquisher cannon with lascannon and 2 MMs to kill off the tough stuff. Am I missing something?
I've used 1-3 mortar squads in every game. And sometimes plus a Wyvern. They are actually very handy. Dirt cheap, tons of range and out of LoS so very survivable, excellent psychological unit too.
With regards to Pask: I actually like to keep him cheap as he is typically #1 on my enemies Target Priority List. Also, if you want a Vanquisher, run the forge world version.
Melissia wrote:Yeah, mortars are I feel the best way to use HWTs this edition.
For that matter-- take a single commander and three HWTs is 111 points, for +1CP, nine mortars, and a commander to give six of those HWTs rerolling 1s. Add a platoon commander and for 131 points you give all three rerolling 1s.
Why use their orders to reroll 1s to hit when you can keep them within 6" of Harker and use their orders to reroll 1s to wound!
Seems like everyone still likes Paskisher. I was thinking Vanquisher cannon with lascannon and 2 MMs to kill off the tough stuff. Am I missing something?
Trying to decide how best to run him too. The Exterminator cannons seem like a decent choice. Range is great, hits supersonics on 3's and had solid board reach. Even a stock battle cannon seems like a good choice for him if you can get the # of hit rolls.
Punisher looks good too but the 24" range seems too limiting. I'm still finding LR tanks slow and ponderous, especially with -1 to hit on hull and sponsons.
I played with him yesterday using the Exterminator, hull LC and 2x plasmas. My dice were garbage with him (3 misses on the Exterminator cannon T1) but his dual orders to my 2x King Plasmas were worth it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW, I don't know if you guys have already discussed this buy Hydras are amazing again.
Speaking of that, how are Vanquishers in this edition? Vanquishers are by far my favorite variant, but after looking over their stats, the main gun does not look too impressive compared to the battle cannon. Unless I am missing something. (I'm finally going to be playing my first game of 8th this Friday or next.)
Cothonian wrote: Speaking of that, how are Vanquishers in this edition? Vanquishers are by far my favorite variant, but after looking over their stats, the main gun does not look too impressive compared to the battle cannon. Unless I am missing something. (I'm finally going to be playing my first game of 8th this Friday or next.)
It's strange.
The main-gun has better damage 'spikes' than the Battlecannon, because of the 2d6/highest for damage, but the Battlecannon is more averagely reliable overall against every target type.
I think the Stygian variant is what you'll want to run, hits on 3's if you didn't move.
Honestly throwing 1 S8 shot at something just isn't cutting it, even against flimsy vehicles your best to-wound roll is a 3+ which I have been failing to do way more than rolling 4+'s to hit so far.
Yeah, I'm thinking I'll keep my pask cheap - at least no sponsons. Right now he's the biggest target since he has to start closer than the bassies or the manticore to become effective.
Is pask targetable if there's something closer? I forgot to ask that in my last game and he got shot to pieces turn one so running him with some cheap fodder to take the hits sounds like a good plan if he falls under that shooting characters rule.
necron99 wrote: Yeah, I'm thinking I'll keep my pask cheap - at least no sponsons. Right now he's the biggest target since he has to start closer than the bassies or the manticore to become effective.
Is pask targetable if there's something closer? I forgot to ask that in my last game and he got shot to pieces turn one so running him with some cheap fodder to take the hits sounds like a good plan if he falls under that shooting characters rule.
You're paying for BS2. might as well get use out of it.
And Characters with wounds of 10 or more? Can be targeted as normal. I might just make my company commander my warlord depending. Usually pask gets targeted quickly but generally hasn't been an issue because of how resilient vehicles are.
Aye, not getting Sponsons on Pask seems like a massive waste of his BS 2+.
If you want to make him more resilient I'd suggest giving him the 6+ FNP Warlord Trait, and have a Techpriest Enginseer babysit him since he can restore D3 wounds to him per turn.
I put an enginseer next to Pask to heal his Punisher. I use HB sponsons and a hull lascannon. He doesn't get shot up much since I run two Hellhounds and five artillery vehicles along with a lot of infantry and Scions. My enemies get overwhelmed by so many targets that are threatening.
Yeah, definitely throw heavy bolter sponsons on Pask, at the very least. Even if you cruise around you're needing 3s to hit and can help put wounds downrange. It's a paltry upgrade cost compared to his base price.
Vanquishers are terrible. You pay a (small) premium over the battle cannon to do less average damage, not to mention making your main gun completely useless against infantry. If you want a long-range, tank killing gun, the battle cannon does it better, for fewer points. To drive the point home, consider this: the Vanquisher cannon is inferior to a meltagun on a standard Guardsman in terms of damage output. The only thing it has over the meltagun is range, and it loses a point of AP for the privilege.
If you find the Leman Russ too static, try out the Punisher with hull heavy flamer and storm bolter. I fielded two in my last tournament and they felt great.
World eaters tabled AM in 2/3 turns. Why you ask? Because the guy playing world eaters normally plays AM and knew the weaknesses.
+1
Dude you need to spread this all over the forum. There is so much whining about guard it is driving me nuts.
Ya man its nuts. The Rhinorush strategy isn't a new thing. He really shows that all vehicles (not just AM ones) are now super tough and even when transports are shot loads the majority of them will get to deploy the troops inside, who then can charge directly into the squishy AMs front line. The shadow sword took out a Rhino in one turn... so what!?!? The word bearers were almost certainly still in combat by turn 2. It was clever the way he avoided charging the shadowsword until he had mopped up the rest of the softer target.
People talking about running handicapped AM lists so others can have a chance is nuts. If they wanted a challenge just hand the other guy first go and explain the guards weakness. (over reliance on special characters, gak in cc and superheavies are a lot of points in one place so either destroy or avoid)
Agreed, vehicles are tough as nails now, esp transports like Rhinos where the controlling player doesn't give a crap about how beat up they get, as long as they get across the board.
I tried out Pask with 2x LR Executioners and they're a fantastic distraction carnifex. They soaked up 3 turns of shooting and only Pask died, I actually killed the other King Plasma myself with a last ditch full strength volley at a flyer (which I didn't even need to do)
Doctoralex wrote: Im trying a Tank commander Vanquisher and a regular Vanquisher russ vs Eldar tonight. Lets see if it can prove the math-hammering wrong!
The Vanquisher is actually interesting from a mathematical perspective. You have a very large of doing nothing not all because its only one shot (so outright 33-50% chance of missing, and then 33-50% chance of nothing wounding on the hits), but when it actually wounds, it'll probably deal 4+ damage. The same argument goes for all of the 1-shot weapons, including the volcano cannon. If luck smiles on you, you'll hurt what you're firing at, but you'll usually do nothing.
Thing about Vanquisher now is that its mathematically impossible for the gun itself to actually kill a tank, and its incredibly unlikely even when taking the other weapons into account. Add to that the fact that the only way to get a vanquisher cannon is by getting the tank, and you'll probably want a hull lascannon, so in the end, you're paying 177 points for something that's no more exciting than two lascannons. Want to add multi-melta sponsons? 40 points extra. I would much rather have 9 HWT with lascannons, or use my heavy artillery which can do both anti-armour and anti-infantry duties.
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Otto von Bludd wrote: If you are considering taking a Vanquisher just pay a few more points and take an Annihilator instead. It does the job way better.
Yes, this is how you should do it. You pay ~10% more points (192 vs 177) but you gain almost 50% more firepower without sponsons. A vanquisher cannon is nothing more than a different-looking lascannon right now. The only bad part is that you can't use tank commanders with them, but the Annihilator is actually better than a TC Vanquisher.
Otto von Bludd wrote: If you are considering taking a Vanquisher just pay a few more points and take an Annihilator instead. It does the job way better.
FORGEWORLD MAKES ME GO REEEEEE!
*ahem* I mean, its a friendly game and I asked my friend what kind of list he wants in terms of WAAC-ness between 1 and 5. He said 3, thus I'm going to try a Vanquisher.
Otto von Bludd wrote: If you are considering taking a Vanquisher just pay a few more points and take an Annihilator instead. It does the job way better.
FORGEWORLD MAKES ME GO REEEEEE!
*ahem* I mean, its a friendly game and I asked my friend what kind of list he wants in terms of WAAC-ness between 1 and 5. He said 3, thus I'm going to try a Vanquisher.
A Vanquisher is literally one of the least competitive turret options, with the Exterminator maybe being worse. So I guess it works?
But in all honesty, I don't think any of the Leman Russ options are especially competitive. Some of the Pask-options might be there, but in general, they range from bad to decent.
Pask isn't half bad in a Vanquisher with Hull Lascannon and Multimelta Sponsons. I've only fielded him once with that setup in 8th but he did pretty well. It's a very dangerous 24" bubble for enemy vehicles and monsters, since he can theoretically deal 24 wounds to anything within it.
With that said, that's probably the only way I'd field a Vanquisher at the moment. With BS4+ they're terrible.
In my first game I noticed that I kind of walled up my LR Executioners and they suffered from their fairly short range. They were really tough though so I think I might try to use them in more of a close support/blitz formation next time.
Thinking of this:
Pask
Punisher
LC and MM sponsons
LR Punisher
Hull HF 2x HF sponsons
LR Punisher
Hull HF 2x HF sponsons
Just run them right up the field in close support of my Chimeras and Hellhounds to sweep objectives and provide a juicy target to keep fire off of the real killers (Manticores, Hydras and Bassys)
I want to try that out so bad! Unfortunately most of my sponson weapons are glued in... (a mix of having gotten the tanks second-hand, and having put the new ones together before becoming well-versed in the hobby.)
In this scenario I have my 20+ conscript in a flat line, base to base.
An enemy declares a frontal charge, I overwatch, the charge role is a success and the enemy has at least one model within 1" of my line. This enemy unit is chosen to fight first. All models are able to pile in 3" provided they end up closer to the nearest enemy (in this case my conscripts)
My question is, are the enemy models able to "jump" my wall of models (and invariably their own "already in combat models" and therefore be on the other (back) side of my line of conscripts or do they have to move 3" around the edge of my existing wall/line of models?
Depending on the answer I assume it would be the same of the consolidation move.
If the answer is no and they can't "jump" over my wall of models which are in base to base contact would the enemy be able to "slip through" gaps between my wall of models, <1", >1" or = 2" (assuming for ease that the base of the enemy model =1"?
This question has been bugging me so any guidance based on experience or even better someone from GW making it clear would be sweet!
I believe that they can go through gaps, but they'd have to be at least 3". They cannot go through your models as far as I know. Things with FLY might be able to though, because I wouldn't put anything past them.
daedalus wrote: I believe that they can go through gaps, but they'd have to be at least 3". They cannot go through your models as far as I know. Things with FLY might be able to though, because I wouldn't put anything past them.
When you say they can go through gaps but they'd have to be at least 3" you're talking about between units right? If the unit of conscripts remain in coherencey then the gaps wouldn't be >2" so does that mean the enemy couldn't go through?
Yeah, right. You have to get in 1" of another mini to be able to fight. But I don't think you can walk out of 1" of a mini if you're already engaged, unless you're falling back.
I might be wrong about that. Don't have a rulebook with me right now.
CaptainO wrote: Ok I'd really appreciate some help with this.
In this scenario I have my 20+ conscript in a flat line, base to base.
An enemy declares a frontal charge, I overwatch, the charge role is a success and the enemy has at least one model within 1" of my line. This enemy unit is chosen to fight first. All models are able to pile in 3" provided they end up closer to the nearest enemy (in this case my conscripts)
My question is, are the enemy models able to "jump" my wall of models (and invariably their own "already in combat models" and therefore be on the other (back) side of my line of conscripts or do they have to move 3" around the edge of my existing wall/line of models?
Depending on the answer I assume it would be the same of the consolidation move.
If the answer is no and they can't "jump" over my wall of models which are in base to base contact would the enemy be able to "slip through" gaps between my wall of models, <1", >1" or = 2" (assuming for ease that the base of the enemy model =1"?
This question has been bugging me so any guidance based on experience or even better someone from GW making it clear would be sweet!
They can jump your guys in the movement phase only if they have the fly keyword. That is, if they are jump infantry, jetbikes, crisis suits etc. In the charge phase they can shoot through gaps in the line if the gaps are at least 25 mm in width (assuming 25 mm bases). Only one model has to end in CC with the charged unit, the rest of the models can go anywhere upto their full charge roll as long as they don't engage units that they did not declare charge on. In principle you can do the same with the pile in move, but you need to end the move closer to the closest enemy model, which really puts a very low limit on any practical backfield penetration. But a screen with more than 25 mm base-to-base model spacing is not a screen. You can charge right through it.
As an ork player I have on two occasions charged right through a sloppy screen, and in both cases it won me the game. What happened in one of the games was that a couple of my charging boys engaged the conscript screen (that had already been charged with a trukk to eat overwatch), the rest of the boyz used the rest of their charge move to move just short of an inch away from the stuff behind the screen. In the ensuing pile-in move a leman russ, three weapons teams and one of those half-track thingys were engaged without getting to fire overwatch. And because of the way the trukk and boyz bracketed his lines, and how his russ was placed up against some terrain he could not fall back with either unit. Regards
Now that I've gotten a chance to look at my rulebook, I think I was mistaken and the above is right.
Something else they have to do is declare whatever they're trying to sneak past your screen to get to as a target of the charge, which entitles it to fire overwatch.
daedalus wrote: Something else they have to do is declare whatever they're trying to sneak past your screen to get to as a target of the charge, which entitles it to fire overwatch.
Only if the attacker wants to attack the target in his own fight phase. But often your main concern, as an attacker, is to engage whatever is behind the screen, so it will stop shooting for a turn. And for that to happen you do not need to declare a charge, as you can typically engage it by piling in to it, and thus not declaring a charge and not being hit by overwatch. In certain cases you can even use the consolidate move to wrap around the tank so it cannot fall back, or pin it against terrain or other units. The best counter-tactic to this is spacing between screen and core, and spacing between individual units behind the screen. And of course keeping the screen tight.
Also, if you are moving forward with both screen and army, it might be necessary to have some kind of screen at the back, or you might be hit by units that can charge out of deepstrike. A ninety point squad of kommandoes has more than a 50% chance of making a nine inch charge (with rerolling), and can easily charge one defending unit while piling into a couple more, typically only declaring a charge on units that has weak overwatch. They probably wont kill much, but they can be mightily annoying.
Back to the topic of Russes, I'm going to run 3 LR Annihilators with Lascannons and MM sponsons buffed by Harker in a Brigade Detachment. I think this is actually where the non Pask/non TC Russ can be OK, in a Brigade filling out a HS slot. They aren't that expensive compared to a HQ options and if you take them to replace the Basilisks you would probably take otherwise it's kind of like subtracting the cost of the Basilisk from the cost of your Russ. These will be screened by 50 infantry inside 5 dual HF chimeras with Straken and a Priest riding along.
9 Lascannons and 6MMs re-rolling 1s is death to anything within 24" but I admit I am somewhat torn because for the price of these 3 Russes I could get about 5-6 T7 vehicles. I think though the T8 of the Russ combined with the ability to pop out of a concealed position and shoot the turret at full BS (if I go turn 2) should be worth it. Thoughts?
daedalus wrote: Something else they have to do is declare whatever they're trying to sneak past your screen to get to as a target of the charge, which entitles it to fire overwatch.
Only if the attacker wants to attack the target in his own fight phase. But often your main concern, as an attacker, is to engage whatever is behind the screen, so it will stop shooting for a turn. And for that to happen you do not need to declare a charge, as you can typically engage it by piling in to it, and thus not declaring a charge and not being hit by overwatch. In certain cases you can even use the consolidate move to wrap around the tank so it cannot fall back, or pin it against terrain or other units. The best counter-tactic to this is spacing between screen and core, and spacing between individual units behind the screen. And of course keeping the screen tight.
Also, if you are moving forward with both screen and army, it might be necessary to have some kind of screen at the back, or you might be hit by units that can charge out of deepstrike. A ninety point squad of kommandoes has more than a 50% chance of making a nine inch charge (with rerolling), and can easily charge one defending unit while piling into a couple more, typically only declaring a charge on units that has weak overwatch. They probably wont kill much, but they can be mightily annoying.
Assuming you can get them closer to the desired unit to pile in against during the charge move, yeah, that's right.
CaptainO wrote: Ok I'd really appreciate some help with this.
In this scenario I have my 20+ conscript in a flat line, base to base.
An enemy declares a frontal charge, I overwatch, the charge role is a success and the enemy has at least one model within 1" of my line. This enemy unit is chosen to fight first. All models are able to pile in 3" provided they end up closer to the nearest enemy (in this case my conscripts)
My question is, are the enemy models able to "jump" my wall of models (and invariably their own "already in combat models" and therefore be on the other (back) side of my line of conscripts or do they have to move 3" around the edge of my existing wall/line of models?
Depending on the answer I assume it would be the same of the consolidation move.
If the answer is no and they can't "jump" over my wall of models which are in base to base contact would the enemy be able to "slip through" gaps between my wall of models, <1", >1" or = 2" (assuming for ease that the base of the enemy model =1"?
This question has been bugging me so any guidance based on experience or even better someone from GW making it clear would be sweet!
They can jump your guys in the movement phase only if they have the fly keyword. That is, if they are jump infantry, jetbikes, crisis suits etc. In the charge phase they can shoot through gaps in the line if the gaps are at least 25 mm in width (assuming 25 mm bases). Only one model has to end in CC with the charged unit, the rest of the models can go anywhere upto their full charge roll as long as they don't engage units that they did not declare charge on. In principle you can do the same with the pile in move, but you need to end the move closer to the closest enemy model, which really puts a very low limit on any practical backfield penetration. But a screen with more than 25 mm base-to-base model spacing is not a screen. You can charge right through it.
As an ork player I have on two occasions charged right through a sloppy screen, and in both cases it won me the game. What happened in one of the games was that a couple of my charging boys engaged the conscript screen (that had already been charged with a trukk to eat overwatch), the rest of the boyz used the rest of their charge move to move just short of an inch away from the stuff behind the screen. In the ensuing pile-in move a leman russ, three weapons teams and one of those half-track thingys were engaged without getting to fire overwatch. And because of the way the trukk and boyz bracketed his lines, and how his russ was placed up against some terrain he could not fall back with either unit. Regards
Thanks for the explanation man, very much appreciated. With so many models in an AM army its going to be tricky to have enough of a space between a conscript screen and the second line while also giving enough space in your back lines for your tanks and artillery to maneuver in the event they are charged. I can see the tactic of surrounding and trapping vehicles being used a lot against AM players.
"Oh no my LR is stuck in cc"
"I'll just use my cc experts to clear them off.... oh right "
When your LR gets into CC you back off and shoot the crap out of what was assaulting it. I like the new mechanic overall, the trick is to not put all your shooting eggs in one basket.
Typically, at least for me, it's difficult to really spread things out in the deployment zone by the time assault happens. Particularly when I want my already lackluster tanks to fire at full BS for at least the first turn.
Granted, that depends heavily on what the opponent is, and that's probably my fault for not using conscripts.
More Dakka wrote: When your LR gets into CC you back off and shoot the crap out of what was assaulting it. I like the new mechanic overall, the trick is to not put all your shooting eggs in one basket.
LR will only be able to "back off" if they can move without going through terrain and enemy units. Also the LR wouldn't be able to shoot the turn it backed off. The new tactic will involve the enemy pilling in "around" the LR, trapping it, which means the enemy unit can't get the crap shot out of it next turn.
AM deployment areas are normally pretty packed with 100+ models especially if you are using a conscript screen. Once the enemy is back there tearing gak up, successfully backing up could require a lot of movement of several vehicles further reducing AM shooting ability (-1 to hit). Deep strike denial through the use of the 9" distance rule could mean MSU or characters will be used to prevent the enemy getting behind your lines at least until they've slogged through the conscript screen.
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daedalus wrote: Sure, if your line didn't get multiassaulted.
Typically, at least for me, it's difficult to really spread things out in the deployment zone by the time assault happens. Particularly when I want my already lackluster tanks to fire at full BS for at least the first turn.
I think that the static parking lot or gunline just doesn't work anymore and really hasn't since 5th. IG have to actually maneuver to get objectives in most missions even if playing Eternal War.
About to buy 3 heavy artillery carriages. Should I buy Earthshakers or Medusas?
Going to buy the other 3 by christmas in any case, so this is mostly about what you think would be most cool. Don't really care about gameplay differences between them.
I think high T spam list in general counter AM. All our high strength weaponry is easy to remove, and/or is very inaccurate. It's very easy to overwhelm AMs ability to deal with enemy armor. Yes we can have 14 cannons but they will not survive turn 1 and of any that do only 50% will actually hit the target.
Otto von Bludd wrote: I think high T spam list in general counter AM. All our high strength weaponry is easy to remove, and/or is very inaccurate. It's very easy to overwhelm AMs ability to deal with enemy armor. Yes we can have 14 cannons but they will not survive turn 1 and of any that do only 50% will actually hit the target.
I've not even come close to losing against toughness spam. Melta, and or Plasma scions drop in and kill everything, with only about 500 points dedicated to it, I'm dropping in 21 plasma guns with orders, and overcharging killing everything.
Otto von Bludd wrote: I think high T spam list in general counter AM. All our high strength weaponry is easy to remove, and/or is very inaccurate. It's very easy to overwhelm AMs ability to deal with enemy armor. Yes we can have 14 cannons but they will not survive turn 1 and of any that do only 50% will actually hit the target.
I've not even come close to losing against toughness spam. Melta, and or Plasma scions drop in and kill everything, with only about 500 points dedicated to it, I'm dropping in 21 plasma guns with orders, and overcharging killing everything.
I mean great.. approx 13-15 wounding hits, 30 wounds dealt. Assuming no cover and some orders. That will nuke two tanks, two MC's.
So why a tiny bit hyperbolic, it will put out a very efficient amount of damage.
I wonder if people would shy away from a first turn alpha strike if everything had a native 4+++. That would simply allow for an epic beta strike yet while allowing the opposing player more board control vs. a smaller force.
Otto von Bludd wrote: I think high T spam list in general counter AM. All our high strength weaponry is easy to remove, and/or is very inaccurate. It's very easy to overwhelm AMs ability to deal with enemy armor. Yes we can have 14 cannons but they will not survive turn 1 and of any that do only 50% will actually hit the target.
I've not even come close to losing against toughness spam. Melta, and or Plasma scions drop in and kill everything, with only about 500 points dedicated to it, I'm dropping in 21 plasma guns with orders, and overcharging killing everything.
True, but Scions are one of, if not the, best units in the game right now and will likely be toned down so I'm not running any of them. It is also possible to deny them their alpha strike with careful placement. So other than Scions, which are a bit of an outlier and will likely be toned down, what do we have reliably battle high T spam?
It was a 1500 point friendly game vs Eldar.
He had a lot three Wave Serpents filled with either Wraithblades or Wraithguard, a Fire Prism, some Dark Reapers and some Snipers.
Here's the new units I used:
Budget Guardsmen squads:
With a Grenade Launcher and a Heavy Bolter, these squads are some of out cheapest infantry options.
Are they good? Eh. The grenade launcher, like my last explanation, is not good. The frag version is only slightly better than a basic lasgun and with FRF + rapid-fire range, the lasgun is straightup better.
The krak version is pretty poor too. Even for what is supposed to be an anti-MEQ, it still wounds on 3+ and has only -1ap.
The Heavy Bolter? It was ok. They mostly shot at the Wraithguard which was a pretty good target for them. If you'r anti-tank is sorted, I would recommend getting a LOT of these. I mean, they are soooo cheap, just spam them. Should help vs if the enemy has a horde army too.
Banewolves:
I tried two Banewolves in the match and they did... ok. I can't really say a lot about them.
They are a weird mixed bunch. Wounding anything but vehicles on 2+ with ap-3 sounds great, but then you get.... 1 dmg per wound.
To make the most out its weapon, you should be shooting it at high T fleshy targets. Guess what, those will pretty much always have two or more wounds. Which means the Hellhound with it's 2dmg gun will probably be better.
Hydra:
So there were plenty of key-word fly target to shoot at with my Hydra and let me tell you, it is a blast to finally have something that hits on 3+.
Unfortunately, I didn't get a good taste of what it can do. The Wave Serpent all had their shields, which means that the normal 2dmg from the autocannons became 1dmg. I'll try him again, that many autocannon shots at bs 3+ does sound pretty good.
uuuuuntil you face an army with 0 fly keywords in it and it's hitting on 5+....
Leman Russ Vanquishers:
Ah yes, the famous 'worst tank of the new AM'. I tried an odd combination of a regular tank commander and a normal leman russ, both with Vanquishers.
Why not Pask you ask? Like I said its was a friendly game, and Pask does turn the try-hardness of any Guard army up a notch.
However, I was suprised by their effectiveness. Maybe I got lucky on my rolls, but to me it really felt like they could put out reliable anti-tank damage.
I think the one-shot instead of the Batllecannon's D6 shots actually isn't too bad. On top of that the extra AP was quite noticable, leaving my enemy with only a petty 6+ save.
This resulted to something interesting I've noticed, the higher the AP of your weapon, the less likely the enemy will use a command point to re-roll a save. Even if it means taking a lot of damage, they won't risk a command re-roll for only a 6+ save. They will however more than likely re-roll a 5+.
And then 2D6 take the highest for damage added another layer of reliability to these babies.
But are they better than the Battle-cannons? Eh, dunno. I'm sure Battle-cannons on a whole will perform better, as they can hit a better variety of targets and a poor roll on the amount of shots can be fixed with a command re-roll.
So that's it, another review of my 'uncommon Guard units!' Let me know what you think and if you want a more detailed version of the battle.
Otto von Bludd wrote: I think high T spam list in general counter AM. All our high strength weaponry is easy to remove, and/or is very inaccurate. It's very easy to overwhelm AMs ability to deal with enemy armor. Yes we can have 14 cannons but they will not survive turn 1 and of any that do only 50% will actually hit the target.
I've not even come close to losing against toughness spam. Melta, and or Plasma scions drop in and kill everything, with only about 500 points dedicated to it, I'm dropping in 21 plasma guns with orders, and overcharging killing everything.
True, but Scions are one of, if not the, best units in the game right now and will likely be toned down so I'm not running any of them. It is also possible to deny them their alpha strike with careful placement. So other than Scions, which are a bit of an outlier and will likely be toned down, what do we have reliably battle high T spam?
I'd be honestly surprised if Scions keep their deep strike in the IG codex without it costing some points. I think removing deep strike from scions would instantly fix them as a unit. Then you have to either bring their Taurox or Valkyrie, which is way more fluffy.
If it was up to me, I'd bring out a new version of Scions with jump packs. That would fill a slot that IG is completely missing right now, and be a route for deep strike without overall nerfing scions.
It was a 1500 point friendly game vs Eldar.
He had a lot three Wave Serpents filled with either Wraithblades or Wraithguard, a Fire Prism, some Dark Reapers and some Snipers.
Here's the new units I used:
Budget Guardsmen squads:
With a Grenade Launcher and a Heavy Bolter, these squads are some of out cheapest infantry options.
Are they good? Eh. The grenade launcher, like my last explanation, is not good. The frag version is only slightly better than a basic lasgun and with FRF + rapid-fire range, the lasgun is straightup better.
The krak version is pretty poor too. Even for what is supposed to be an anti-MEQ, it still wounds on 3+ and has only -1ap.
The Heavy Bolter? It was ok. They mostly shot at the Wraithguard which was a pretty good target for them. If you'r anti-tank is sorted, I would recommend getting a LOT of these. I mean, they are soooo cheap, just spam them. Should help vs if the enemy has a horde army too.
Banewolves:
I tried two Banewolves in the match and they did... ok. I can't really say a lot about them.
They are a weird mixed bunch. Wounding anything but vehicles on 2+ with ap-3 sounds great, but then you get.... 1 dmg per wound.
To make the most out its weapon, you should be shooting it at high T fleshy targets. Guess what, those will pretty much always have two or more wounds. Which means the Hellhound with it's 2dmg gun will probably be better.
Hydra:
So there were plenty of key-word fly target to shoot at with my Hydra and let me tell you, it is a blast to finally have something that hits on 3+.
Unfortunately, I didn't get a good taste of what it can do. The Wave Serpent all had their shields, which means that the normal 2dmg from the autocannons became 1dmg. I'll try him again, that many autocannon shots at bs 3+ does sound pretty good.
uuuuuntil you face an army with 0 fly keywords in it and it's hitting on 5+....
Leman Russ Vanquishers:
Ah yes, the famous 'worst tank of the new AM'. I tried an odd combination of a regular tank commander and a normal leman russ, both with Vanquishers.
Why not Pask you ask? Like I said its was a friendly game, and Pask does turn the try-hardness of any Guard army up a notch.
However, I was suprised by their effectiveness. Maybe I got lucky on my rolls, but to me it really felt like they could put out reliable anti-tank damage.
I think the one-shot instead of the Batllecannon's D6 shots actually isn't too bad. On top of that the extra AP was quite noticable, leaving my enemy with only a petty 6+ save.
This resulted to something interesting I've noticed, the higher the AP of your weapon, the less likely the enemy will use a command point to re-roll a save. Even if it means taking a lot of damage, they won't risk a command re-roll for only a 6+ save. They will however more than likely re-roll a 5+.
And then 2D6 take the highest for damage added another layer of reliability to these babies.
But are they better than the Battle-cannons? Eh, dunno. I'm sure Battle-cannons on a whole will perform better, as they can hit a better variety of targets and a poor roll on the amount of shots can be fixed with a command re-roll.
So that's it, another review of my 'uncommon Guard units!' Let me know what you think and if you want a more detailed version of the battle.
I took a regular Leman Russ in my last game and was extremely disappointed in it. I only got 3 battle cannon shots off with it, and I think overall it killed two marines. The enemy easily killed it with hellfire missiles and a soulreaper cannon. And that was with me maneuvering successfully staying out of his multimelta range. Maybe I'd have had better luck if I could have found some cover, but there wasn't any available for my russ.
It tanked some shots, but it was otherwise pretty ineffective for a 180 point unit. I just kept thinking how much I'd rather have brought a taurox prime.
So purely hypothetically if plasma guns didn't exist (say they hit the nerfbat hard) what would you guys think of meltaguns and HSVGs on Tempestus Scions?
Would it be worth to bring melta/HSVG scions if plasma was gone or would you just not bother with scions?
The HSVG is quite fun in my experience as it threatens pretty much anything while primarily seems to do well against MEQ and GEQ. Its heavy profile is troublesome but a four man Command Squad kitted out with these things is just nasty, flinging 16 S4 AP-2 shots at a decent range and are auto-include for me. Haven't played with meltas yet so I can't comment on them.
Invinciblebug wrote: So purely hypothetically if plasma guns didn't exist (say they hit the nerfbat hard) what would you guys think of meltaguns and HSVGs on Tempestus Scions?
Would it be worth to bring melta/HSVG scions if plasma was gone or would you just not bother with scions?
I'd probably just use melta.
I might give HSVGs a go, but honestly the fact that they're Heavy on a unit that's supposed to be highly mobile just kills them for me.
Otto von Bludd wrote: I think high T spam list in general counter AM. All our high strength weaponry is easy to remove, and/or is very inaccurate. It's very easy to overwhelm AMs ability to deal with enemy armor. Yes we can have 14 cannons but they will not survive turn 1 and of any that do only 50% will actually hit the target.
I've not even come close to losing against toughness spam. Melta, and or Plasma scions drop in and kill everything, with only about 500 points dedicated to it, I'm dropping in 21 plasma guns with orders, and overcharging killing everything.
Invinciblebug wrote: So purely hypothetically if plasma guns didn't exist (say they hit the nerfbat hard) what would you guys think of meltaguns and HSVGs on Tempestus Scions?
Would it be worth to bring melta/HSVG scions if plasma was gone or would you just not bother with scions?
Plasma could go up to 15pts a gun and I would still take it, they're that good. I can't imagine GW doing anything crazier than that to them that wouldn't just horribly nerf everything else with access to plasma even worse. There are way too many things with the plasma statline in the game for it to go away. They will do a points adjustment and that's it, it's all they can do. This in mind the plasma gun fills an important role for guard special weapons, hence why I said I'd still buy them at 15pts. I'm used to that from last edition and to be honest that plasma gun was way inferior to the one we have now.
As for the other weapons, I tried both out on stormtroopers this weekend. I actually really liked them, they had a niche they filled pretty well. I took the HSVG's in a full 10 man squad, so 4 HSVG's, 5 lasguns, and a sarge with a plasma pistol. Puts out a stupid amount of fire and if they survive the drop to move into rapid fire range, their lasgun buddies get 4 shots as well with an officer nearby. Worked really well for hollowing out space marine squads and high save units in cover like scouts. Also draws a crazy amount of fire when you drop a unit in and are rolling something like 20 AP -2/-3 dice, which helped take heat off the plasma and melta elements.
As for melta, I had a 5 man troop squad with 2 meltas and plasma pistol. With a 4 man plasma command squad, an officer, and the 10 man volley gun squad, the opponent ignored the melta unit as the other units are far more flashy on the drop. I ended up sicking the meltas on his characters and being able to advance to point blank range for that 2d6 pick highest damage is excellent. Plasma is still the ultimate jack of all trades gun but I will absolutely continue to use the meltas. Even at 7-12", that potential for a money high damage roll and completely negating most armor saves is very handy. It really lets you punish a sloppy player leaving their characters exposed, that's for sure.
Will someone please sell me on astropaths? I don't have my index in front of me but I looked at them this weekend and I just don't see them as an autotake and yet I seem to see them everywhere (like apparently the winning BAO list that has two for crying out loud).
necron99 wrote: Will someone please sell me on astropaths? I don't have my index in front of me but I looked at them this weekend and I just don't see them as an autotake and yet I seem to see them everywhere (like apparently the winning BAO list that has two for crying out loud).
For 15 points you get:
1 x Deny the Witch
1 x remove cover for 1 enemy unit
1 x Power @ 2D6 (say +1 Save) or 1 x Smite @ 1D6
1 x Laspistol shot !
It's worth it for the DtW & deny cover alone. Giving a Russ, Superheavy or Bullgryns an extra save is lush too. The odd smite that comes off if you run 2 is pure gravy. I use 2 for 30 pts, well worth it.
necron99 wrote: Will someone please sell me on astropaths? I don't have my index in front of me but I looked at them this weekend and I just don't see them as an autotake and yet I seem to see them everywhere (like apparently the winning BAO list that has two for crying out loud).
I think the main selling point is that (with Laspistols) they're a mere 15pts each, barely more than a 1/3 of what a Primaris Psyker costs.
- Their smite is weaker, but with almost 3 times as many it hardly matters (hell, if any army can extol the virtues of quantity over quality, it's ours).
- They can cast other powers normally (and their other powers are pretty decent).
- Their Deny the Witch is as good as any other psyker (with the advantage that you can have more of them)
- They have a bonus rule that lets you remove cover saves for enemy units.
It was a 1500 point friendly game vs Eldar.
He had a lot three Wave Serpents filled with either Wraithblades or Wraithguard, a Fire Prism, some Dark Reapers and some Snipers.
Here's the new units I used:
Budget Guardsmen squads:
With a Grenade Launcher and a Heavy Bolter, these squads are some of out cheapest infantry options.
Are they good? Eh. The grenade launcher, like my last explanation, is not good. The frag version is only slightly better than a basic lasgun and with FRF + rapid-fire range, the lasgun is straightup better.
The krak version is pretty poor too. Even for what is supposed to be an anti-MEQ, it still wounds on 3+ and has only -1ap.
The Heavy Bolter? It was ok. They mostly shot at the Wraithguard which was a pretty good target for them. If you'r anti-tank is sorted, I would recommend getting a LOT of these. I mean, they are soooo cheap, just spam them. Should help vs if the enemy has a horde army too.
Banewolves:
I tried two Banewolves in the match and they did... ok. I can't really say a lot about them.
They are a weird mixed bunch. Wounding anything but vehicles on 2+ with ap-3 sounds great, but then you get.... 1 dmg per wound.
To make the most out its weapon, you should be shooting it at high T fleshy targets. Guess what, those will pretty much always have two or more wounds. Which means the Hellhound with it's 2dmg gun will probably be better.
Hydra:
So there were plenty of key-word fly target to shoot at with my Hydra and let me tell you, it is a blast to finally have something that hits on 3+.
Unfortunately, I didn't get a good taste of what it can do. The Wave Serpent all had their shields, which means that the normal 2dmg from the autocannons became 1dmg. I'll try him again, that many autocannon shots at bs 3+ does sound pretty good.
uuuuuntil you face an army with 0 fly keywords in it and it's hitting on 5+....
Leman Russ Vanquishers:
Ah yes, the famous 'worst tank of the new AM'. I tried an odd combination of a regular tank commander and a normal leman russ, both with Vanquishers.
Why not Pask you ask? Like I said its was a friendly game, and Pask does turn the try-hardness of any Guard army up a notch.
However, I was suprised by their effectiveness. Maybe I got lucky on my rolls, but to me it really felt like they could put out reliable anti-tank damage.
I think the one-shot instead of the Batllecannon's D6 shots actually isn't too bad. On top of that the extra AP was quite noticable, leaving my enemy with only a petty 6+ save.
This resulted to something interesting I've noticed, the higher the AP of your weapon, the less likely the enemy will use a command point to re-roll a save. Even if it means taking a lot of damage, they won't risk a command re-roll for only a 6+ save. They will however more than likely re-roll a 5+.
And then 2D6 take the highest for damage added another layer of reliability to these babies.
But are they better than the Battle-cannons? Eh, dunno. I'm sure Battle-cannons on a whole will perform better, as they can hit a better variety of targets and a poor roll on the amount of shots can be fixed with a command re-roll.
So that's it, another review of my 'uncommon Guard units!' Let me know what you think and if you want a more detailed version of the battle.
Agree with a lot of your findings, but a couple of points of note.
Yes on the Banewolf, it's there to dig out obnoxious infantry (like Marines on objectives), or to punk IC's that you can get close to (on a good role), but the Hellhound is pound for pound more reliable between the range, damage output and the fact that it can do solid damage to light vehicles as well as infantry.
Hydras are solid no matter what you're facing. They plug the AA hole, and as you noted, are amazing against anything else with the FLY keyword. Even if you face an army with 0 fly Keyword (which is unlikely these days), hitting on 5's is perfectly fine, just think of them as a squad of Lootaz, not the most efficient but they'll still reliably put wounds on most vehicles/heavy infantry.
RE the Vanquisher VS Battle Tank debate. You probably had better than average rolls. It's the S8 that kills me, every target for the vanquisher is 3+ to wound at best, typically 4+ for the choice targets. The Battle Cannon only has to roll a 2+ shots to have better odds at more damage even factoring the roll 2D6 mechanic. Now my experience is only on Pask, who shines when rocking the stock battle cannon, but I think it's somewhat comparable to the stock Tank Commander in that respect.
Honestly though I think Russes are best used to get on mid-field objectives and provide close support to up-field infantry, T8 12W is a distraction carnifex. I'm trying out my Punisher with 3x HF to test this theory, backed up by 2x plain Executioners with Hull LC, who are themselves backed up by Pask in a LRBT with LC and Plasma sponsons. All of this is just going to try to keep the fire off my stock infantry squads in Chimeras and the backfield artillery.
64 pages later, I think that the OP needs to take the question mark out of the thread title!
Back to what works best, has anyone used Elysian Taurox Venators? For their points they seem quite efficient if you take 2 Lascannons and a HK Missile you end up at $92 and can deepstrike, or just move very quickly without suffering the the to hit penalty. Basically they're Sentinels that lose scout and move faster but can take an extra Lascannon and don't take move penalties. The 5++ is just gravy on top!
necron99 wrote: Will someone please sell me on astropaths? I don't have my index in front of me but I looked at them this weekend and I just don't see them as an autotake and yet I seem to see them everywhere (like apparently the winning BAO list that has two for crying out loud).
jifel wrote: 64 pages later, I think that the OP needs to take the question mark out of the thread title!
Back to what works best, has anyone used Elysian Taurox Venators? For their points they seem quite efficient if you take 2 Lascannons and a HK Missile you end up at $92 and can deepstrike, or just move very quickly without suffering the the to hit penalty. Basically they're Sentinels that lose scout and move faster but can take an extra Lascannon and don't take move penalties. The 5++ is just gravy on top!
Im going to be running two of them. They seem awesome. For all the reasons you posts. But you can also deep strike them. and 15" movement. I think they will be an auto include for me.
Invinciblebug wrote: So purely hypothetically if plasma guns didn't exist (say they hit the nerfbat hard) what would you guys think of meltaguns and HSVGs on Tempestus Scions?
Would it be worth to bring melta/HSVG scions if plasma was gone or would you just not bother with scions?
Plasma could go up to 15pts a gun and I would still take it, they're that good. I can't imagine GW doing anything crazier than that to them that wouldn't just horribly nerf everything else with access to plasma even worse. There are way too many things with the plasma statline in the game for it to go away. They will do a points adjustment and that's it, it's all they can do. This in mind the plasma gun fills an important role for guard special weapons, hence why I said I'd still buy them at 15pts. I'm used to that from last edition and to be honest that plasma gun was way inferior to the one we have now.
As for the other weapons, I tried both out on stormtroopers this weekend. I actually really liked them, they had a niche they filled pretty well. I took the HSVG's in a full 10 man squad, so 4 HSVG's, 5 lasguns, and a sarge with a plasma pistol. Puts out a stupid amount of fire and if they survive the drop to move into rapid fire range, their lasgun buddies get 4 shots as well with an officer nearby. Worked really well for hollowing out space marine squads and high save units in cover like scouts. Also draws a crazy amount of fire when you drop a unit in and are rolling something like 20 AP -2/-3 dice, which helped take heat off the plasma and melta elements.
As for melta, I had a 5 man troop squad with 2 meltas and plasma pistol. With a 4 man plasma command squad, an officer, and the 10 man volley gun squad, the opponent ignored the melta unit as the other units are far more flashy on the drop. I ended up sicking the meltas on his characters and being able to advance to point blank range for that 2d6 pick highest damage is excellent. Plasma is still the ultimate jack of all trades gun but I will absolutely continue to use the meltas. Even at 7-12", that potential for a money high damage roll and completely negating most armor saves is very handy. It really lets you punish a sloppy player leaving their characters exposed, that's for sure.
My expectation is that Tempestus Scions will move to their own subsection of the codex and get their own wargear page, but retain their AM keyword. That way GW can raise the cost for them specifically (since they're BS3+) without nerfing it for guard (who are BS4+).
Seems reasonably that scions should pay about the same for a plasma gun as a space marine, since they have the same BS. I think they'll still have their place, but it won't be spammed quite as hard core.
Got another game in with my IG. Tank heavy list as follows:
Battalion Detachment
HQ Commander
Boltgun
Commissar
Boltgun/Power Sword
Troops
Infantry Squad
Infantry Squad
5x Tempestus Scions
2x plasma guns
Elites
Master of Ordinance
Fast Attack
2x Hellhounds
Heavy Support
2x Hydras
Dedicated Transport
Chimera Multi Laser hull HF
Chimera Multi Laser hull HF
Spearhead Detachment
HQ Pask
LRBT Hull LC, Plasma sponsons
Heavy Support
Leman Russ Demolisher Squad
Punisher
Hull HF, Sponson HF
Executioner
Hull LC
Executioner
Hull LC
Manticore
Hull HB
Manticore
Hull HB
Went up against GK
Draigo
2x Venerable Dreads w TLLC and TLAC
5x Incinerators in a Rhino
2x 5 man Paladin Squads w a Hammer in each
Eversor assassin
Knight w the twin battle cannon ML rack + CCW
We played KP and I won in the 3rd turn, took down the Knight T1 with shooting to spare.
General observation is that tanks are tough. T7+ is rock solid in my experience. We both had average dice without any big swings either way but my opponent just couldn't punch through my armor fast enough.
My opponents main mistake was not DSing his whole army T1, I was able to easily concentrate on the Knight, but I think I would have been able to spread the firepower around enough to weaken the Paladin squads and kill the knight anyways.
Overall everything in the army performed well. The only dead weight was the MoO, which I think I'll switch for Harker. I just had so many threats to deal with inside of 36" that I never got to use his re-rolls and his bombardment has wiffed 2 games in a row now.
Manticores are MVPs for sure, but we all knew that. I focused down the Knight with everything else in my kit and finished it off with 1 storm eagle rocket.
My opponents main mistake was not DSing his whole army T1, I was able to easily concentrate on the Knight, but I think I would have been able to spread the firepower around enough to weaken the Paladin squads and kill the knight anyways.
Hydras with no keyword Fly units, just fine, did I think 6 wounds to the Knight, helped to finish off 2 Paladins, overall solid performance in their worst case scenario.
Leman Russ tanks did OK, Pask got focused down fast like I was expecting. Did solid 4 wounds to the Knight with his battle cannon. I think that's the best gun for him, that or the Demolisher. Hard to say with him just getting knocked out right away.
Executioners solid again, really they're just doing distraction duty right now. They survived a lot of shooting and assault so that's about what I expect from them.
Punisher with HFs. Did OK, HFs did way more damage to the GKs because of the -1 AP, the Punisher cannon I think only picked off 1 wound. I ended up pointing it at the Eversor to take him down.
Chimeras were solid, very good at blocking and the HFs were a good investment. Would consider 2 but then they price out like a Hellhound
Hellhounds did great. Put consistent wounds into the Paladins, did a combined 4 wounds to the Knight as well. The static D2 is just really worth it.
After reading through the FW Index I am really keen on Conquerors to fill in my LR selections. Between the barebones cost and the coaxial Storm Bolter, I think they're going to be the go-to for my future lists.
Invinciblebug wrote: So purely hypothetically if plasma guns didn't exist (say they hit the nerfbat hard) what would you guys think of meltaguns and HSVGs on Tempestus Scions?
Would it be worth to bring melta/HSVG scions if plasma was gone or would you just not bother with scions?
Plasma could go up to 15pts a gun and I would still take it, they're that good. I can't imagine GW doing anything crazier than that to them that wouldn't just horribly nerf everything else with access to plasma even worse. There are way too many things with the plasma statline in the game for it to go away. They will do a points adjustment and that's it, it's all they can do. This in mind the plasma gun fills an important role for guard special weapons, hence why I said I'd still buy them at 15pts. I'm used to that from last edition and to be honest that plasma gun was way inferior to the one we have now.
As for the other weapons, I tried both out on stormtroopers this weekend. I actually really liked them, they had a niche they filled pretty well. I took the HSVG's in a full 10 man squad, so 4 HSVG's, 5 lasguns, and a sarge with a plasma pistol. Puts out a stupid amount of fire and if they survive the drop to move into rapid fire range, their lasgun buddies get 4 shots as well with an officer nearby. Worked really well for hollowing out space marine squads and high save units in cover like scouts. Also draws a crazy amount of fire when you drop a unit in and are rolling something like 20 AP -2/-3 dice, which helped take heat off the plasma and melta elements.
As for melta, I had a 5 man troop squad with 2 meltas and plasma pistol. With a 4 man plasma command squad, an officer, and the 10 man volley gun squad, the opponent ignored the melta unit as the other units are far more flashy on the drop. I ended up sicking the meltas on his characters and being able to advance to point blank range for that 2d6 pick highest damage is excellent. Plasma is still the ultimate jack of all trades gun but I will absolutely continue to use the meltas. Even at 7-12", that potential for a money high damage roll and completely negating most armor saves is very handy. It really lets you punish a sloppy player leaving their characters exposed, that's for sure.
My expectation is that Tempestus Scions will move to their own subsection of the codex and get their own wargear page, but retain their AM keyword. That way GW can raise the cost for them specifically (since they're BS3+) without nerfing it for guard (who are BS4+).
Seems reasonably that scions should pay about the same for a plasma gun as a space marine, since they have the same BS. I think they'll still have their place, but it won't be spammed quite as hard core.
Honestly I'm hoping gw nerfs plasmagun/pistol across the board for all armies so it's at best str6 and str7 overcharged.
It's not just the fact plasma is overpowered, but it completely throws off balance with all special weapons with grenade launchers and melta guns being worse in most situations.
And worst still most vehicles in 40k 8th are not as durable as they should be.
There is way to much easily accessible and cheap str8 multi damage weapons that make a mockery of t8 3+ save ~15 wound units....
if plasma guns get nerfed as I hope above it's almost garaunteed that leman russes and similar vehicles would be much much better. At str 7 a plasma gun can still do decent damage but it won't be nearly as bad as it currently is.
If you just raise plasma to 15ppm people will still spam they are just that good with deep strike at alpha striking. And it does very little to solve the bigger problem caused by plasmaguns.
With plasma nerfed to str 7 armies will need to rely on krak missiles, lascannons, melta wpns, melee, or high rate of fire, etc all of which are either vastly more expensive with less shots or have much shorter range to take down t8.
gungo wrote: Honestly I'm hoping gw nerfs plasmagun/pistol across the board for all armies so it's at best str6 and str7 overcharged.
It's not just the fact plasma is overpowered, but it completely throws off balance with all special weapons with grenade launchers and melta guns being worse in most situations.
And worst still most vehicles in 40k 8th are not as durable as they should be.
There is way to much easily accessible and cheap str8 multi damage weapons that make a mockery of t8 3+ save ~15 wound units....
if plasma guns get nerfed as I hope above it's almost garaunteed that leman russes and similar vehicles would be much much better. At str 7 a plasma gun can still do decent damage but it won't be nearly as bad as it currently is.
If you just raise plasma to 15ppm people will still spam they are just that good with deep strike at alpha striking. And it does very little to solve the bigger problem caused by plasmaguns.
With plasma nerfed to str 7 armies will need to rely on krak missiles, lascannons, melta wpns, melee, or high rate of fire, etc all of which are either vastly more expensive with less shots or have much shorter range to take down t8.
I really hope that doesn't happen. Frankly, I like that IG weapons are actually relevant again - as opposed to being worthless, overpriced garbage, compared with the D-weapons, Grav and such that dominated the battlefield in 7th.
I would argue that the issue lies not with plasma (save for it being a bit too cheap), but with the other special weapons.
- Grenade Launchers have been garbage for at the past 3 editions, and 8th has done nothing whatsoever to change that.
- Flamers went up in price (for some baffling reason) and, whilst decent, don't really offer much that the squad couldn't already achieve with lasguns. What's more, the changes to transports make them a less attractive option on the mechanised front and the new Deep Strike rule means you'll never land in flamer range.
- Meltas have a similar problem Re. Deep Striking (albeit not quite as bad), as well as the issue of transports shooting up in cost. However, I would argue that the greatest threat to meltas is not plasma but Lascannons. Why take a melta, which needs to get within 6" of its target to fire at full effect, when you could have a Lascannon that's almost as good from 48" away?
In effect, I don't want this to turn into "Too many people are using plasma because they've realised that it's the only special weapon that's actually worth a damn and which fits in with the new rules. So let's nerf plasma to oblivion and force IG players to choose between 4 special weapons, all of them bad. That'll fix things."
I really miss old deepstrike. I'm sure everyone's had at least one of those "parallax error" arguments about the scatter die, but man, I was a freaking wizard with the 5th edition melta Stormtroopers.
And since it doesn't take up a flier slot even if its all you have in the air you don't auto lose (Ref: New FAQ).
Plus it looks Bad friggen ass.
I tried the shadowsword, and the preator assault launcher. Both really cool. But I am finished with variable shots. 1D6 shots? I'd always seem to roll a 1 or a 2.
Also. Anybody use the Cyclops?? 40pts. Moves 10 inches. Auto hits everything within 1D6.
Awesome counter charge unit. And I like not having to roll to hit.
After a lot of research (math, stats, internet) and a few games:
Our army is very good. The guard was lame for several years now and its finally getting some glory. It was about time!
However, our units are VERY unbalanced. Its clear things are not even remotely close to the "all is well balanced" GW was saying. Following units I compare from a competitive point of view. In semi or friendly, everything is usable.
Conscripts are great unit! They can hold the line, which is great, but have a very small firepower. I dont see the reason to nerf this unit, its hardly spammable to win (like many other units from all armies) and are just a buffer, which is exactly its role fluffwise. With the new marine (and later possibly chaos) rule of objective secured, they will be much worse for a objective grap, which is one of their best use now.
Tauroxes are OP. Can not say anything more about a unit, which is so cheap, yet with so great firepower AND standing power.
Scions...I am not sure about them. Scion Command squads are brutal,possibly OP. However, only with plasma guns (other special weapons are meh, only melta is quite ok). However, if your opponent is tricky enough, he can lower your deepstrike results very well. And after the enemy space marines will use their auspex stratagem...well...its a unit of scion command squad down for sure before it even fires.
Scion infantry. Great, but not OP. This guys are very well balanced. I would only wish those hot-shots to be one inch more in range, because right now, the guys with hot shots are only ablative wounds for special weapons guys...
Artillery - good, all of them. Nice balance.
Leman Russes - impotent, totally. Go spend your points on something else. Only Pask have a decent amount of damage efficiency, but he is always picked first by the enemy, so he will not fire very often...
Chimeras - they should be cheap transports, but they are too bad for that purpose (horrribly overcosted). Because of that fact, the units like SWS, Command squads or veterans are poorly usable and I will not mention them any more..
Valkyries - better than chimeras thanks to grav chute rule. Still too expensive to be really usable, but otherwise ok, they have nice special rule.
Infantry squads and HWTs...they are ok, but outshined by other good choices. Since HWTs are very squishy, inaccurate and cheap, a player needs to use a lot of them to do something...but then you have quite a problem with positioning them effectively (LOS is quite a bitch ). Thats their biggest problem, which, unfortunately, has no solution known to me (except not using anything than mortars ).
Commanders - orders are great for massed conscripts and bad for everything else. If you calculate how much points you are paying for that slight firepower boost, you will discover its much more efficient to buy another gun/body, then to invest in commander. If only infantry squads could have 20 men and two HWTs...would make quite a difference withnout being too strong.
Commissars - also good only for conscripts. Everything else dies from the shooting, not the morale. Again, why no 20-man infantry squad.....
Sentinels, RR, ratlings, ogryns, hellhounds I dont know for sure. Ratlings are nice snipers, otherwise i dont use that units and they are not looking good math wise.
Just my two cents...well, yeah, i know, its several bucks...sorry for the wall of text, guys
dual heavy flamers is nice to have. Roll up right down the middle. If the enemy wants to lascannon it, great. It'll eat fire. If they want to charge even better.
Melta is underpowered and could do with upgrading maybe +1 dam would make it a more visbe alternative plasma
Don't make tanks any stronger yes non pask isn't brilliant but not everything needs to be top of the power curve.
Grenade launchers suffer from competing design space at the bottom end we have Las guns bolt guns flamers and mortars all trying to do the same thing
The solution would be to make grenade launchers do something completely different change grenade launcher damage to 1 mortal wound/5 models in the target unit rounded up for hoping large unit's.
Or make them ap1 mortars with an 18" range might give them a purpose
rhinoceraids wrote: Chimeras are some of the best transports in the game. Nice and low down. Good movement. Pretty good T.
Not for those points. Too expensive. I told you, guys, this is from a competitive point of view. You would not use something which costs about 100 points without decent firepower just for transport. Tournament wise its not a good unit. Not effective. Rhinos are slightly better and they are still not good for competitive tournaments.
Neither is Leman Russ (try to calculate his cost and firepower/durability with some of the good units in our army). Hes laughable.
It's not just what they do on the table though, it's how they interact with other elements of the army.
A Chimera is a bully of a transport, it can basically point at something head to it and make it there before it dies. A Taurox targeted by anything goes down quick by comparison.
Leman Russ tanks are not the real killers in the army, they're there to soak up anti-tank fire, get in the way of assault units and give your artillery breathing room to do the heavy lifting.
I tried out the triple HF on a Punisher and it did so-so the HF's were great the Punisher cannon is terrible against 3+ or better armor, but that also costs 200 points, for 100 pts a pair of HFs on a Chimera is similar damage output and can scoot a squad out to the other end of the table for objectives.
MinscS2 wrote: As someone who plays in a semi-competitive/casual environment, I'd say that list is quite tryhard.
W-hat? He's gimping Pask with a Vanquisher cannon, has 40 infantry with no Commissars to prevent runners as the only thing preventing his tanks from getting stunlocked by assault armies, and only took one mortar hws. And you STILL think that's tryhard? Yeah, he has a lot of arty, but 2-3 rhinos + deepstrikers are going to impact his frontline by turn 1/2, shred a hole in the infantry line, and charge the tanks/arty turn 3.
Chimeras belong to a rather small group of tanks currently; The heavily armored transport which also tots heavy weaponry-family
Some other units which belong to this "family" is the Razorback and the Waveserpent.
Out of these 3, I'd say that the Chimera is by far the worst off points/performance wise.
It wants to move, it's a transport. It's also BS4+, which means that if it does what it's intended to do (move) it's shooting is pretty lackluster, hitting on 5+ or worse.
The Razorback and Waveserpent don't have this problem due to BS3+.
The Razorback and Waveserpent also carry much better weapons, like Assault Cannons, Lascannons, Brightlances, etc.
The Razorback and Waveserpent also have the potential for a much deadlier cargo due to the nature of the army it belongs to (Space Marines and Eldar respectively.)
And yes, the Waveserpent costs noticeably more than the Chimer and Razorback, but it's also *much* more resilient.
I (used to) love the Chimera, I own 3 and I usually fielded at least one, but often all three in 6th and 7th Ed.
IG is by far the army I've played with the most in 8th, but I haven't fielded a Chimera a single time so far. I just don't know what I'd do with it.
It's no longer a bunker for my commanders. Not that it's needed anymore due to character's being almost immune to being singled out, but it couldn't even if it wanted to anymore.
It's no longer a bunker for the occupants to shoot out of safely like it used to be.
As a immobile dakka-tank it's lackluster due to it's poor weapons/cost-ratio. 2 BS4+ HB's at 91 ppm? No Tanks (pun intended.)
As a mobile harass-tank it's lackluster either due to it's poor Ballistic Skill (5+, yay!) or because it with Dual Flamers simply becomes a bad Hellhound.
I'm genuinely at a loss at what to do with my Chimeras at the moment. :/
MinscS2 wrote: As someone who plays in a semi-competitive/casual environment, I'd say that list is quite tryhard.
W-hat? He's gimping Pask with a Vanquisher cannon, has 40 infantry with no Commissars to prevent runners as the only thing preventing his tanks from getting stunlocked by assault armies, and only took one mortar hws. And you STILL think that's tryhard?
Is his list tryhard? No.
Is his list tryhard for someone who tries to be casual? Yes, I genuinely think that.
He has more artillery in 1250 pts than I have in 2000 pts.
Pask isn't actually bad in a Vanquisher, it's probably the best way to field a Vanquisher. As a matter of fact, in a casual 1250 pts list, why even bring Pask in the first place??
40 Infantry don't become a bad choice just because there's no commissar. Infantry is solid regardless.
Yeah, he has a lot of arty, but 2-3 rhinos + deepstrikers are going to impact his frontline by turn 1/2, shred a hole in the infantry line, and charge the tanks/arty turn 3.
You assume a whole lot here.
I've likewise played 2000 pts vs Tyranids quite afew times in 8th, (without Conscripts!) and I never felt that I became overrun on turn 3.
In fact, it was mostly the other way around, and my opponent felt like he was getting shot of the table in turn 3, and I guess most people who play casual lists againt that IG-list will feel the same.
His list isn't WAAC, but it's not casual either - it's just solid.
This may be meant as a wider question in regards to the game rules as a whole, but none the less here goes...
Air units (in my case Valkyries) and weapon accuracy. As it stands anything that moves and shoots with a heavy weapon suffers a -1 to BS, this would mean that unless I go into hover, my Valkyries are stuck firing at 5+. Furthermore, if I engage an enemy air unit with my Valkyrie, I'm now firing at 6+. Is there a rule that I'm missing here, or are aircraft just really inaccurate when it comes to firing?
Also while I'm here: Hellstrike Missiles. I was initially excited to see that they were now unlimited ammo, but after using them (and realizing I could only fire one at a time...) they don't seem super useful, as their chances of hitting compared to the missile pods are not great. Thoughts?
Chimeras belong to a rather small group of tanks currently; The heavily armored transport which also tots heavy weaponry-family
Some other units which belong to this "family" is the Razorback and the Waveserpent.
Out of these 3, I'd say that the Chimera is by far the worst off points/performance wise.
It wants to move, it's a transport. It's also BS4+, which means that if it does what it's intended to do (move) it's shooting is pretty lackluster, hitting on 5+ or worse.
The Razorback and Waveserpent don't have this problem due to BS3+.
The Razorback and Waveserpent also carry much better weapons, like Assault Cannons, Lascannons, Brightlances, etc.
The Razorback and Waveserpent also have the potential for a much deadlier cargo due to the nature of the army it belongs to (Space Marines and Eldar respectively.)
And yes, the Waveserpent costs noticeably more than the Chimer and Razorback, but it's also *much* more resilient.
I (used to) love the Chimera, I own 3 and I usually fielded at least one, but often all three in 6th and 7th Ed.
IG is by far the army I've played with the most in 8th, but I haven't fielded a Chimera a single time so far. I just don't know what I'd do with it.
It's no longer a bunker for my commanders. Not that it's needed anymore due to character's being almost immune to being singled out, but it couldn't even if it wanted to anymore.
It's no longer a bunker for the occupants to shoot out of safely like it used to be.
As a immobile dakka-tank it's lackluster due to it's poor weapons/cost-ratio. 2 BS4+ HB's at 91 ppm? No Tanks (pun intended.)
As a mobile harass-tank it's lackluster either due to it's poor Ballistic Skill (5+, yay!) or because it with Dual Flamers simply becomes a bad Hellhound.
I'm genuinely at a loss at what to do with my Chimeras at the moment. :/
MinscS2 wrote: As someone who plays in a semi-competitive/casual environment, I'd say that list is quite tryhard.
W-hat? He's gimping Pask with a Vanquisher cannon, has 40 infantry with no Commissars to prevent runners as the only thing preventing his tanks from getting stunlocked by assault armies, and only took one mortar hws. And you STILL think that's tryhard?
Is his list tryhard? No.
Is his list tryhard for someone who tries to be casual? Yes, I genuinely think that.
He has more artillery in 1250 pts than I have in 2000 pts.
Pask isn't actually bad in a Vanquisher, it's probably the best way to field a Vanquisher. As a matter of fact, in a casual 1250 pts list, why even bring Pask in the first place??
40 Infantry don't become a bad choice just because there's no commissar. Infantry is solid regardless.
Yeah, he has a lot of arty, but 2-3 rhinos + deepstrikers are going to impact his frontline by turn 1/2, shred a hole in the infantry line, and charge the tanks/arty turn 3.
You assume a whole lot here.
I've likewise played 2000 pts vs Tyranids quite afew times in 8th, (without Conscripts!) and I never felt that I became overrun on turn 3.
In fact, it was mostly the other way around, and my opponent felt like he was getting shot of the table in turn 3, and I guess most people who play casual lists againt that IG-list will feel the same.
His list isn't WAAC, but it's not casual either - it's just solid.
Chimera looks like an assault transport to me, Minsc. Stick Ogryns in it, drive up to someone's face, flame them, shoot them, then get out and assault. If your chimera is still alive, ram it into them to eat overwatch. The Chimera has the staying power to survive doing that, a Taurox doesn't. The flamers work perfect with that plan. And the Ogryns can even shoot the silly looking lasgun array on the way up. 6 rapid fire shots isn't bad. I'm going to buy one and run it with two heavy flamers, stormbolter, and lasgun array, with bullgryns inside.
As to the Taurox, it would be a perfect guard truck if it wasn't for those damn autocannons. Make those optional and you'll see a lot of Tauroxes on the field I think.
I also look at Dual HF Chimeras as assault transports and run 4-5 (contemplating going up to 6 for a fully mechanized brigade) filled with either infantry squads or DKOK Engineers, though I am going to try Veterans loaded with flamers soon. The few more points it costs to give the Chimera heavy flamers change the vehicle from being an expensive rhino with no offensive output into a very dangerous medium assault tank that can also carry 12 men. A Dual HF Chimera with a squad inside is basically a self contained assault force; the men can pop out and screen the tank from assault if need be, or the tank can screen the men. It is now essentially a Hellhound that trades 1 damage and 1 STR for lasgun arrays and a transport capacity. It also has 12" move base which is huge and it gives the squad inside essentially 3 extra inches of movement when they disembark.
They are also very hardy! Turn one, drive 12", advance and pop smoke. Who cares if they charge you, you get your shooting in either way due to the HF overwatch. You are now in a great position for turn 2 to unleash your heavy flamers, unload your men into rapid fire range, FRFSRF and then bayonet charge while being buffed by the priest and Col. Straken who rode along with you.
Otto von Bludd wrote: I also look at Dual HF Chimeras as assault transports and run 4-5 (contemplating going up to 6 for a fully mechanized brigade) filled with either infantry squads or DKOK Engineers, though I am going to try Veterans loaded with flamers soon. The few more points it costs to give the Chimera heavy flamers change the vehicle from being an expensive rhino with no offensive output into a very dangerous medium assault tank that can also carry 12 men. A Dual HF Chimera with a squad inside is basically a self contained assault force; the men can pop out and screen the tank from assault if need be, or the tank can screen the men. It is now essentially a Hellhound that trades 1 damage and 1 STR for lasgun arrays and a transport capacity. It also has 12" move base which is huge and it gives the squad inside essentially 3 extra inches of movement when they disembark.
They are also very hardy! Turn one, drive 12", advance and pop smoke. Who cares if they charge you, you get your shooting in either way due to the HF overwatch. You are now in a great position for turn 2 to unleash your heavy flamers, unload your men into rapid fire range, FRFSRF and then bayonet charge while being buffed by the priest and Col. Straken who rode along with you.
Why Veterans with flamers? You're paying a 2 point premium for +1 BS to not use it. An SWS can also take 3 flamers and you can stuff two into a Chimera. I mean, you lose the HF from the vets and burn another elite slot (but that s what Vanguard dets are for), but that's still 6 flamers vs 3 + HF. Currently, I like to run run 2x Plasma CCS + Company Commander in a BBQ Chimera. Works pretty well in normal games, but I got stomped 0-3 in a tournament last week so I'm probably going to cut them.
Pask isn't actually bad in a Vanquisher, it's probably the best way to field a Vanquisher. As a matter of fact, in a casual 1250 pts list, why even bring Pask in the first place??
Using Pask is the only way to make a Vanquisher even remotely useful. It's still probably the worst tank to use Pask in, but if you'e dead set on using a Vanquisher (like me, I just love the model), then use it with Pask.
I don't see it as tryhard at all, even for a casual list.
His list isn't WAAC, but it's not casual either - it's just solid.
Ive changed Pask to a regular tank commander vanquisher and a normal LR vanquisher. Ive also replaced ome of the Basilisks with a Hydra. Hopefully that will tone down the WAAC-ness of the list a bit.
Why Veterans with flamers? You're paying a 2 point premium for +1 BS to not use it. An SWS can also take 3 flamers and you can stuff two into a Chimera. I mean, you lose the HF from the vets and burn another elite slot (but that s what Vanguard dets are for), but that's still 6 flamers vs 3 + HF. Currently, I like to run run 2x Plasma CCS + Company Commander in a BBQ Chimera. Works pretty well in normal games, but I got stomped 0-3 in a tournament last week so I'm probably going to cut them.
Haha yeah that is definitely not a competitive way to deploy Scions in a tournament, but it is fun. We are close though to having a viable mechanized, fun, competitive list. I don't see it happening, but if you don't mind losing you can certainly have some fun with our mech options.
For instance, SWSs can only chuck 1 demo charge at a time, it's 1 use, and they'll never survive to throw a 2nd. Only meltas or super charging plasmas synergize with it. You can put 2 of those in a Chimera and have a nice little punch putting out 4 meltas and 2 demo charges. But why go through all that trouble and pay all those points when our BS is so poor and demo charges are unreliable # of shots. It's just not very efficient. If they could include heavy flamers I'd seriously consider putting 2 SWSs in a Chimera with a total of 4x flamers and 2 heavy flamers. But as it stands they're just under powered. I hope they make that change in the codex.
1) What do you think of 10 Scions inside a Taurox Prime, just equipped with Hellguns plus a Prime dropping for orders, for hunting infantry.
Is it "wasting" the 4 special weapon slot?
2) Since the non commander Leman Russes have pretty weak damage output I am planing to add Pask.
Is it worth the extra points for +2BS if you don't plan to bring other tanks to oder?
1) What do you think of 10 Scions inside a Taurox Prime, just equipped with Hellguns plus a Prime dropping for orders, for hunting infantry. Is it "wasting" the 4 special weapon slot?
2) Since the non commander Leman Russes have pretty weak damage output I am planing to add Pask. Is it worth the extra points for +2BS if you don't plan to bring other tanks to oder?
1) Yes. The special weapons should improve your ability to hunt infantry, so why wouldn't you give them some? It's also not the best way to run them, but in principle, they should have some special weapons at least.
2) Yes. You gain 66% more offensive power for a 34% increase in base cost. Percentages are subject to change depending on loadout (flamers don't benefit at all, and adding weapon reduces the relative increase in points).
1) Yes. The special weapons should improve your ability to hunt infantry, so why wouldn't you give them some? It's also not the best way to run them, but in principle, they should have some special weapons at least.
2) Yes. You gain 66% more offensive power for a 34% increase in base cost.
1) Because more special weapon means less guys taking advantage of FRFSRF which would make the Prime not so useful anymore.
2) What are the numbers for a regular Tank Commander?
1) Yes. The special weapons should improve your ability to hunt infantry, so why wouldn't you give them some? It's also not the best way to run them, but in principle, they should have some special weapons at least.
2) Yes. You gain 66% more offensive power for a 34% increase in base cost.
1) Because more special weapon means less guys taking advantage of FRFSRF which would make the Prime not so useful anymore.
2) What are the numbers for a regular Tank Commander?
True, but I would still take the special weapons for redundancy. You never know what you might have to kill with it. At least two of them.
At worst, 27% cost increase for a 33% power increase. Pask is always better unless you want a flame tank.
At worst, 27% cost increase for a 33% power increase. Pask is always better unless you want a flame tank.
Sure the +10 points for +1BS and an extra order is a no-brainer.
But I was asking because I was considering adding some Tank Commanders additional to Pask.
CaptainO wrote: Do LR block LoS to other LR. Could you "hide" Pask behind two LR for turn 1 at least (I'm assuming I'm going second) ?
I mean theoretically yeah, but they could probably draw a model to hull line from somewhere. Fliers don't/won't care about that though, as they slide right on past your perimeter, kill Pask and probably something else important.
Hello all, long time Nid player here. I am wanting to run a big group of genestealers ambushing into the opponent (probably 3x20, a Patriarch and Primus in a Vanguard detachement) - issue being they are wasted on chaff, which can easily be used to bubble wrap. I have been looking at the tools I have in Nids and Cult to clear chaff, and keep coming to the same conclusion, that Guard is simply far, far better at it! Termagants are really solid for that role, but they only have 18" range whilst Guard's best options ignore LoS and have colossal range...
So what would you guys run with the above Vanguard detachment? It costs 1125pts, so a fair bit left. I am mulling over Thud guns, Wyverns, and Mortar squads (possibly with some Basilisks/Earthshakers/Manticores thrown in for really tough stuff that genes are also not phenomenal against) - but I have no experience with anything Guard (beyond what's in Cult) so really don't know what's best.
Benlisted wrote: Hello all, long time Nid player here. I am wanting to run a big group of genestealers ambushing into the opponent (probably 3x20, a Patriarch and Primus in a Vanguard detachement) - issue being they are wasted on chaff, which can easily be used to bubble wrap. I have been looking at the tools I have in Nids and Cult to clear chaff, and keep coming to the same conclusion, that Guard is simply far, far better at it! Termagants are really solid for that role, but they only have 18" range whilst Guard's best options ignore LoS and have colossal range...
So what would you guys run with the above Vanguard detachment? It costs 1125pts, so a fair bit left. I am mulling over Thud guns, Wyverns, and Mortar squads (possibly with some Basilisks/Earthshakers/Manticores thrown in for really tough stuff that genes are also not phenomenal against) - but I have no experience with anything Guard (beyond what's in Cult) so really don't know what's best.
Mortars, Manticores or Basilisks (or Earthshaker/Medusa Carriages and Platforms). Thudd Guns/Heavy Mortars/Griffons are pretty darn bad, and Wyvern is a little lackluster.
Mortars are a nice cheap throwaway unit. For 111 points and a spearhead detachment, you get +1 CP, and 9d6 S4 shots that range across most boards and don't need LoS to hit. Course they're fragile as hell and can easily be wiped out in turn one, but that's why I called them a "throwaway" unit.
Has anyone had any luck with assault bullgryns in transports? I want to try and run 2 valks filled with bullgryn. Had decent luck with 1 as my opponent wasnt expecting to be assaulted by them first turn and they effectively held up Arhiman and his squad of T. Sons for practically the entire game. Once Arhiman broke combat, I deployed my Vindicare from reserves to snipe him off.
I used 3 Chimera with 6 Bullgryn, a priest, Straken, Yarrick, and a pysker + 2 SWSs in one of my first games of 8th. As long as you hit non CC specialist units it should be quite brutal. It's pretty good in OBJ based games since we now have a very strong base of fire and the best deep strikers so these resilient mobile units are quite tough since it's hard for an opponent to prioritize targets.
Otto von Bludd wrote: I also look at Dual HF Chimeras as assault transports and run 4-5 (contemplating going up to 6 for a fully mechanized brigade) filled with either infantry squads or DKOK Engineers, though I am going to try Veterans loaded with flamers soon. The few more points it costs to give the Chimera heavy flamers change the vehicle from being an expensive rhino with no offensive output into a very dangerous medium assault tank that can also carry 12 men. A Dual HF Chimera with a squad inside is basically a self contained assault force; the men can pop out and screen the tank from assault if need be, or the tank can screen the men. It is now essentially a Hellhound that trades 1 damage and 1 STR for lasgun arrays and a transport capacity. It also has 12" move base which is huge and it gives the squad inside essentially 3 extra inches of movement when they disembark.
They are also very hardy! Turn one, drive 12", advance and pop smoke. Who cares if they charge you, you get your shooting in either way due to the HF overwatch. You are now in a great position for turn 2 to unleash your heavy flamers, unload your men into rapid fire range, FRFSRF and then bayonet charge while being buffed by the priest and Col. Straken who rode along with you.
Why Veterans with flamers? You're paying a 2 point premium for +1 BS to not use it. An SWS can also take 3 flamers and you can stuff two into a Chimera. I mean, you lose the HF from the vets and burn another elite slot (but that s what Vanguard dets are for), but that's still 6 flamers vs 3 + HF. Currently, I like to run run 2x Plasma CCS + Company Commander in a BBQ Chimera. Works pretty well in normal games, but I got stomped 0-3 in a tournament last week so I'm probably going to cut them.
You're right, I tried to make a list with them today and thought, why would I want to drive up and fire flamers when I could drive up and fire plasma. Then I thought, why would I want to drive up and fire plasma when I can just deep strike scions in and fire plasma and decided a cheap infantry squad was best to pop out and claim objectives / FRFSRF.
Otto von Bludd wrote: I also look at Dual HF Chimeras as assault transports and run 4-5 (contemplating going up to 6 for a fully mechanized brigade) filled with either infantry squads or DKOK Engineers, though I am going to try Veterans loaded with flamers soon. The few more points it costs to give the Chimera heavy flamers change the vehicle from being an expensive rhino with no offensive output into a very dangerous medium assault tank that can also carry 12 men. A Dual HF Chimera with a squad inside is basically a self contained assault force; the men can pop out and screen the tank from assault if need be, or the tank can screen the men. It is now essentially a Hellhound that trades 1 damage and 1 STR for lasgun arrays and a transport capacity. It also has 12" move base which is huge and it gives the squad inside essentially 3 extra inches of movement when they disembark.
They are also very hardy! Turn one, drive 12", advance and pop smoke. Who cares if they charge you, you get your shooting in either way due to the HF overwatch. You are now in a great position for turn 2 to unleash your heavy flamers, unload your men into rapid fire range, FRFSRF and then bayonet charge while being buffed by the priest and Col. Straken who rode along with you.
Why Veterans with flamers? You're paying a 2 point premium for +1 BS to not use it. An SWS can also take 3 flamers and you can stuff two into a Chimera. I mean, you lose the HF from the vets and burn another elite slot (but that s what Vanguard dets are for), but that's still 6 flamers vs 3 + HF. Currently, I like to run run 2x Plasma CCS + Company Commander in a BBQ Chimera. Works pretty well in normal games, but I got stomped 0-3 in a tournament last week so I'm probably going to cut them.
I'm also thinking that two packs of Rough riders running screen work perfectly for a chimera carrying ogryns too. Hah! We're close assault guard! Chaaaaaarge!
That'll surprise the hell out of your opponent for sure.
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Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote: Has anyone had any luck with assault bullgryns in transports? I want to try and run 2 valks filled with bullgryn. Had decent luck with 1 as my opponent wasnt expecting to be assaulted by them first turn and they effectively held up Arhiman and his squad of T. Sons for practically the entire game. Once Arhiman broke combat, I deployed my Vindicare from reserves to snipe him off.
My last game 3 Bullgryns were the stars of the show until they got charged by a dreadnought. Learned my lesson there. Make sure to mix them up with shield types, I forgot to do that.
Does anyone know what the cost and stats are for the Mars Pattern Alpha Tanks and the Stygios Vanquisher?
I know they both have a co-ax weapon (which for so whatever reason can only be a Storm Bolter I think) to give it re-roll to hit on the main gun, sounds pretty sweet!
The Mars Pattern also has +1 save VS S4 or lower attacks. I doubt your tank will be getting hit by those apart from a horde of S4 attacks (Boyz for instance).
The Stygios can unfortunately only be the Vanquisher, but get +1 BS for not Moving. Along with the Co-ax weapon, that's a 89% chance to hit! Too bad the Co-ax weapon will probably never be in range for the big gun....
CaptainO wrote: Do LR block LoS to other LR. Could you "hide" Pask behind two LR for turn 1 at least (I'm assuming I'm going second) ?
The second there is any high ground that some one can park a lascannon on the tactic wont work.
but it certainly does work if you are playing only on ground level.
It doesn't work in 8th because Pask is higher than the silhouette of the tanks in front of him. The enemy can simply aim at Pask.
I'll just be using a "normal" LR punisher as Pask. The fluff for my army is that they're from a toxic world so all infantry, rough riders and characters will have gas masks, conscripts will be zomified civilians/ex infantry (AoS zombies plus cadians) and all vehicles will be sealed (no dudes sticking their heads out)
I get that if someone can get a bead on the tank it can be shot. I just wanted to make sure that the enemy won't be able to shoot "through" the other tanks.
I get that if someone can get a bead on the tank it can be shot. I just wanted to make sure that the enemy won't be able to shoot "through" the other tanks.
I don't think that'll ever be possible without some creative modeling. The main problem is even if you can block the LRBT body with other LRBTs, the turret of the target tank will still be visible between the turrets of the intervening tanks.
I wouldn't plan on being able to keep an LRBT out of sight without a super-heavy, fortification, or terrain.
I get that if someone can get a bead on the tank it can be shot. I just wanted to make sure that the enemy won't be able to shoot "through" the other tanks.
I don't think that'll ever be possible without some creative modeling. The main problem is even if you can block the LRBT body with other LRBTs, the turret of the target tank will still be visible between the turrets of the intervening tanks.
I wouldn't plan on being able to keep an LRBT out of sight without a super-heavy, fortification, or terrain.
Gotcha. Ya it'll be hard to hide him and the big ass BS 2+ model on the board is going to attract a lot of attention. I have Pask "leading" a Cadian Spearhead detachment and Straken "leading" a brigade of catachans in my 2000 pt force. The real question is do I make Pask my Warlord and give him the FnP 6+ rule or make Straken my Warlord and not have to worry about gifting my opponent Kill the Warlord.
Gotcha. Ya it'll be hard to hide him and the big ass BS 2+ model on the board is going to attract a lot of attention. I have Pask "leading" a Cadian Spearhead detachment and Straken "leading" a brigade of catachans in my 2000 pt force. The real question is do I make Pask my Warlord and give him the FnP 6+ rule or make Straken my Warlord and not have to worry about gifting my opponent Kill the Warlord.
I would recommend Straken, as Pask dies very quickly to anti-tank fire. If your opponent wants him gone, he's gone, 6+ FNP or no. He's already a priority target given his damage output and buffs, so there's no reason to give up extra points for your opponent doing what they'd probably do anyway.
GreaterGood? wrote: What's everyone thoughts on creed? I'm kinda disappointed. How have your experiences been?
Creed is 70 points, gives three orders and 2 command points.
1 Company commander and platoon commander is 50 points, gives you 3 orders, but you'll probably want voxes, so you're really looking at 75 points.
3 Platoon Commanders is 60 points, gives you 3 orders, and you skip the voxes.
I'd say if you use Creed, and assume you have to buy 3 voxes, then he's 85 points and you're paying an extra 10 points (or 25 with the PCs) to get 2 command points. I think that's pretty great. If you're willing to pile your troops up in one spot for him, then you don't need the voxes and he's absolutely worth it. He's in my list for my next game, so I'll see how he works out.
Once we have strategems of our own, I think he'll practically be mandatory.
I don't think I'd bother with Kell ever though. He seems useless. Once the battle starts, Creed is no more important or useful than 3 simple platoon commanders.
GreaterGood? wrote: What's everyone thoughts on creed? I'm kinda disappointed. How have your experiences been?
The only benefit Creed gives is his 2 additional command points just for taking him. He's more expensive than other sources of orders and requires more support because he can only be in 1 place at one time, whereas 2 or 3 other officers can spread out. You only need to cluster 2 squads per Company Commander to get full use of his orders, whereas Creed requires 3 within 6". Both are pretty achievable, but the latter less so and might spread out your power more than you'd like in some scenarios.
So how good are the command points he grants you? Well, he costs 70 points, and an equivalent number of order costs 50 or 60 points depending on how you spread it out. If we don't care about the additional bodies, as they are still pretty bad being guard, this is 5 or 10 points per command point. Given that the cheapest possible Brigade is ~500-600 for 9, this is actually really good. But if you have 20 command points already, is this worth it? Most likely in the future, depending on our codex stratagems, but right now I think we might reach a saturation point. He also only takes up one HQ slot, so all your detachments requiring more than this will become a little more expensive, but this is hardly something of consequence as you will either need mor orders anyway, and if you're taking tanks, you should almost always prioritize Pask > TC > Leman Russ.
Creed is good, but very boring and unenjoyable. You are not buying Creed, you are buying 2 command points. Thats the only thing you have to think about.
For orders, normal commanders are better.
Two commanders are 60 points. They have 4 orders a nd can be at two places (supporting larger field of battle). One order from commander is worth 15 points...so for 3 orders the cost is 45 points. Creed is 70 points. You are paying 25 points for 2 command points AND the disadvantage of shorter orders range (in comparison to two separate commanders on two places).
Its ok, but its...boring. Creed is in no way special, I was rather dissappointed when i saw his rules...
More Dakka wrote: Anyone have thoughts on AA for Guard? Specifically against tough flyers like Storm Ravens, Stormwolfs?
Not really. The FW fliers and the Praetor are more effective per unit, but also much more expensive costing at least 200 points for the cheapest option. The Manticore Platform with Sky Eagle is lackluster. You'd probably be better served looking outside of AM at least if you're not happy with the Hydra.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CplPunishment wrote: Flamers cost more and are less effective in 8th. Save two points and take grenade launchers, which are better in so many ways.
Spend the same amount of points and get Plasma Guns which are even better than the terrible Grenade Launcher.
More Dakka wrote: Anyone have thoughts on AA for Guard? Specifically against tough flyers like Storm Ravens, Stormwolfs?
Valks may as well be carrying slingshots
Vendettas are not going to happen at 240 pts hitting on 5s, unless you hover T1
Hydras are better suited to T6 and under/non hard-to-hit
Call me crazy, but I'm going to playtest basilisks against Flyers. My new policy is 4 basilisks every game anyhow. I know it sounds strange, but they roll 2d6 and pick the highest for determining shots, S9 AP-2 Dd3. They have range to the entire board, no more min range or firing arc, and don't have to see their target. All that for 108pts. Bonus: Master of Ordnance lets nearby artillery reroll 1s against targets more than 36" away.
I threw some dice at taking them down with Manticores with Harker helping them, it only sorta works because of the 5s to hit, typically I'm getting 3-4 hits, maybe 2-3 wounds, and they're 14W models. I can throw my whole army into one basically for a guaranteed kill, but I'm typically seeing 3 of them, with Scion back up so I can't kill enough fast enough to eliminate ground forces T1
More Dakka wrote: Anyone have thoughts on AA for Guard? Specifically against tough flyers like Storm Ravens, Stormwolfs?
Not really. The FW fliers and the Praetor are more effective per unit, but also much more expensive costing at least 200 points for the cheapest option. The Manticore Platform with Sky Eagle is lackluster. You'd probably be better served looking outside of AM at least if you're not happy with the Hydra.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CplPunishment wrote: Flamers cost more and are less effective in 8th. Save two points and take grenade launchers, which are better in so many ways.
Spend the same amount of points and get Plasma Guns which are even better than the terrible Grenade Launcher.
I have the Preator. It under performs often. The SAM ammo type is D6 shots. And only a +1 to hit. You're almost always better to just use the anti armour rounds because you get 2D6.
For AA Im using the Thunderbolt with Skyfire missiles. Pretty cool model. With an Elysian officer of the fleet he can order priority target and give it re'rolling 1's.
Hydras are good. But generally that's what your enemy is going to go for first. (HVT and all that)
Well yes, I stated that it was only more effective per unit, although I guess I should have written per model. A Praetor will most likely outperform a Hydra, but cost about 3x as much. I would never recommend it as a pure AA choice. The aircraft are better choices when going purely against air, but also pretty expensive, with the Thunderbolt being 280 points. It deals about as much damage as 2 Hydras, but costs a little more.
In all honesty, the Hydra is probably the best answer to flying enemies we have, with the Thunderbolt being a close second (and having a bit more flexibility). If you want better answers you will have to find them outside of the Astra Militarum.
More Dakka wrote: Anyone have thoughts on AA for Guard? Specifically against tough flyers like Storm Ravens, Stormwolfs?
Not really. The FW fliers and the Praetor are more effective per unit, but also much more expensive costing at least 200 points for the cheapest option. The Manticore Platform with Sky Eagle is lackluster. You'd probably be better served looking outside of AM at least if you're not happy with the Hydra.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CplPunishment wrote: Flamers cost more and are less effective in 8th. Save two points and take grenade launchers, which are better in so many ways.
Spend the same amount of points and get Plasma Guns which are even better than the terrible Grenade Launcher.
Grenade Launchers are actually worth their points now, and are better than plasma against infantry hordes.
Plasma is by far the most bang for its buck, I'll give you that. All my plasma goes into Veterans now, because it is more effective there. 3+ to hit (rerolling 1s because Harker is useful now!) And my company commander buffs both squads to reroll 1s to wound. If you can spare the points, a lascannon team will buff their damage output. BONUS: Commander, Harker and 2 Vet squads give you 1 CP (vanguard).
Grenade Launchers are actually worth their points now, and are better than plasma against infantry hordes.
I'm curious, but in what way do you actually have a lot of problems versus infantry hordes? A FRFSRF lasgun is better than a grenade launcher within 12" and you have heaps of those. At 24", you go from 9 lasguns to 11.5 (using averages), at 12" you go from 18 to 19,5. Hell, if you're using FRFSRF you go from 36 to 35,5 when picking a GL. You could also get mortar teams for the same cost, and they are strictly superior to the frag grenade if you're desperate for anti-horde weapons, while plasma gun or meltagun will let you deal with enemies you can't normally hurt well, while only being a little worse than the grenade launcher in the worst case scenario.
I don't doubt that a grenade launcher could be worth its points in a very specific scenario, namely when I want to purely deal with hordes T3 hordes and don't expect to face anything else, or very light vehicles for the krak grenades. But I have never come across a scenario where this small increase against these kinds of targets ever mattered enough to take the opportunity cost of not taking a meltagun or plasma gun for the vehicles or heavy infantry I expect to face.
Aenarian wrote: Well yes, I stated that it was only more effective per unit, although I guess I should have written per model. A Praetor will most likely outperform a Hydra, but cost about 3x as much. I would never recommend it as a pure AA choice. The aircraft are better choices when going purely against air, but also pretty expensive, with the Thunderbolt being 280 points. It deals about as much damage as 2 Hydras, but costs a little more.
In all honesty, the Hydra is probably the best answer to flying enemies we have, with the Thunderbolt being a close second (and having a bit more flexibility). If you want better answers you will have to find them outside of the Astra Militarum.
Oh for sure! I didn't mean to make it sound like I was arguing. Only providing my anecdotal evidence.
How much better is the Hydra Vs. a Wyvern at taking down a flyer (/vehicle). Because I'm looking at cost/benefits, the loss of the additional infantry slaying firepower vs. the AA / AV
How much better is the Hydra Vs. a Wyvern at taking down a flyer (/vehicle). Because I'm looking at cost/benefits, the loss of the additional infantry slaying firepower vs. the AA / AV
Well it's apples and pears really. The Wyvern is anti-(light) infantry and the Hydra is, perhaps not necessarily anti-flyer but simply a powerful weapons platform vs anything with the Fly keyword.
First of, there is a pretty big point difference; the Wyvern's 93 to the Hydra's 123.
As for the actual damage on a flyer:
Let's say a flyer has T7 and a 3+ save.
The Wyvern will do on average 0.83 wounds, the Hydra 2 wounds.
And keep in mind that the Wyvern has 4D6 shots, meaning there is another element of randomness compared to the Hydra's solid 8 shots.
Grenade Launchers are actually worth their points now, and are better than plasma against infantry hordes.
I'm curious, but in what way do you actually have a lot of problems versus infantry hordes? A FRFSRF lasgun is better than a grenade launcher within 12" and you have heaps of those. At 24", you go from 9 lasguns to 11.5 (using averages), at 12" you go from 18 to 19,5. Hell, if you're using FRFSRF you go from 36 to 35,5 when picking a GL. You could also get mortar teams for the same cost, and they are strictly superior to the frag grenade if you're desperate for anti-horde weapons, while plasma gun or meltagun will let you deal with enemies you can't normally hurt well, while only being a little worse than the grenade launcher in the worst case scenario.
I don't doubt that a grenade launcher could be worth its points in a very specific scenario, namely when I want to purely deal with hordes T3 hordes and don't expect to face anything else, or very light vehicles for the krak grenades. But I have never come across a scenario where this small increase against these kinds of targets ever mattered enough to take the opportunity cost of not taking a meltagun or plasma gun for the vehicles or heavy infantry I expect to face.
True, but can a lasgun be S6 AP-1 D d3(or is it d6?)? No. Neither does it have a potential for 6 S3 shots at 24". Anyway, my point is that it is better anti-horde than the flamer. The lasgun is better antihorde per point, but less versatile. It's not a must-have by any means, but it is versatile, mobile, low points, and the gun itself is more plentiful than the plasma gun (two in each infantry squad box compared to zero). I get that the plasma gun is only two points more, but how long do you honestly think that will last? When the new codex drops it will probably be around 10pts. For now it is affordable to add to an infantry squad, but at that point you are getting the least mileage possible for the plasma gun itself. Better to put your plasmas in vet squads and give them a reroll 1s buff.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Kraks wound primaris marines on 3+, reduce their save and have potential to do multiple wounds per shot. One krak grenade can kill a primaris outright. For 5 points. Without overheating.
True, but can a lasgun be S6 AP-1 D d3(or is it d6?)? No. Neither does it have a potential for 6 S3 shots at 24". Anyway, my point is that it is better anti-horde than the flamer. The lasgun is better antihorde per point, but less versatile. It's not a must-have by any means, but it is versatile, mobile, low points, and the gun itself is more plentiful than the plasma gun (two in each infantry squad box compared to zero). I get that the plasma gun is only two points more, but how long do you honestly think that will last? When the new codex drops it will probably be around 10pts. For now it is affordable to add to an infantry squad, but at that point you are getting the least mileage possible for the plasma gun itself. Better to put your plasmas in vet squads and give them a reroll 1s buff.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Kraks wound primaris marines on 3+, reduce their save and have potential to do multiple wounds per shot. One krak grenade can kill a primaris outright. For 5 points. Without overheating.
It's d3 damage on the krak grenade.
But can a Grenade Launcher do 2 S8 AP-3 D2 shots? No. Neither does it have a potential for 1 S3 shot at 24", as it is always at least S7 AP-3. It could kill two Primaris marines if you're lucky (and it wounds them on 2+ or 3+!), and is much more likely do to so than a krak grenade, that even the overheat chance is worth it. It also stands a good chance of killing the same number of horde units because its much more likely to wound and get through any armour, and its actually significantly better than the frag grenade when within 12" even without supercharging it.
I get your point that it's better than the flamer, but I have never seen anyone who claims that the flamer is actually good or recommend it, so being better than a bad choice does not necessarily mean that it is good. Especially as, right now, the plasma gun is a better choice and we cannot really make predictions on what might happen. The flamer might go down to 2 points or 0, the plasma gun might be reduced in price or not changing and Scions costing more as they are the prime carrier. Codex Space Marines saw basically no points increase whatsoever, even on choices that were considered incredible. The Stormraven was nerfed in other ways to prevent spamming. If the plasma gun is heavily nerfed, we could return to this discussion. But right now, even if we use the plasma gun in the worst possible situation as you said, giving it to infantry squads, it is superior to the grenade launcher. And right now is when it matters. As a sidenote, because I play Krieg, I'll probably have 7 pts plasma guns until 2019 or something when they update the army list.
But the point about you only having a limited number of plasma guns in the box is correct, and sadly just a remainder of how old the actual kit is. An updated one will likely include all of them, if that ever happens. And I stand by a previous suggestion I made, that guardsmen gets the option of a (possibly free) flamer, grenade launcher or heavy stubber in addition to the standard special weapon and heavy weapon choices.
Edit: To summarize, the grenade launcher has a very small niche. It's an anti-horde weapon slightly superior to the lasgun with its frag grenade, and anti-light vehicle/medium infantry (as it lacks the AP to really hurt heavy) with the krak option. But the frag grenade is almost always unnecessary, as it does not really fulfill its objective that well, and there are better options for the krak that does not reduce your horde-killing capability that much. A meltagun or plasma gun firing one shot deals two thirds of the damage a frag grenade does against T3 5+, the plasma gun deals more within 12", and they are both better against vehicles, monsters or heavy infantry apart from some specific situations. Right now, it's a bad option when you have superior ones. The same can be said for the flamer. I would only recommend the plasma gun or the meltagun as it stands right now, and if things change with the codex, I will change my recommendations.
Specifically; do you think a list of 3 super heavies at 2000 points would be durable enough? I don't think that 3 would be tough enough (considering 4 knights can be dealt with), but I'm just curious, because of the following list:
Frankly, it started with me being curious how much dakka I could get out of a Stormlord; ended up with ~119 Heavy Bolter-ish shots, for 800 points. The other two super heavies are for anti-vehicle duty, and extra dakka.
Sure; 800/600/600 points are tied up into the three vehicles which are more vulnerable than I'd like; but, that much dakka coming from the dakka-boat that would be the Stormlord; makes the Ork in me proud .
That said... if this list has to move at all (which it will, since it needs to get in range), its firepower goes down significantly... BS4 => BS5, ouch.
Still... I'm almost tempted to drop the ~$600 to make it a silly reality. But, I doubt I could find opponents down for facing triple-super heavy outside of a tournament (at least it's not quad-heavy Baneblades XD).
fe40k wrote: How viable are our super heavy tanks?
Specifically; do you think a list of 3 super heavies at 2000 points would be durable enough? I don't think that 3 would be tough enough (considering 4 knights can be dealt with), but I'm just curious, because of the following list:
Frankly, it started with me being curious how much dakka I could get out of a Stormlord; ended up with ~119 Heavy Bolter-ish shots, for 800 points. The other two super heavies are for anti-vehicle duty, and extra dakka.
Sure; 800/600/600 points are tied up into the three vehicles which are more vulnerable than I'd like; but, that much dakka coming from the dakka-boat that would be the Stormlord; makes the Ork in me proud .
That said... if this list has to move at all (which it will, since it needs to get in range), its firepower goes down significantly... BS4 => BS5, ouch.
Still... I'm almost tempted to drop the ~$600 to make it a silly reality. But, I doubt I could find opponents down for facing triple-super heavy outside of a tournament (at least it's not quad-heavy Baneblades XD).
I run an entire baneblade company routinely (my thoughts are earlier in the threat).
Your list looks fine, though imo the best for-the-price superheavy is the Stormhammer.
I honestly can't say that your summary is wrong. The plasmagun is the obvious choice *at its current price*
That being said, I only have a finite number of plasmagun-wielding guardsmen, so I'm going to put them where they will be the most potent (on BS 3+ veterans). I have a much larger finite quantity of grenade launchers, which I plan to add to my six infantry squads if I have 30pts to play with. Why? Because Grenade Launchers are better and I don't rely on my infantry squads to do the heavy lifting anyhow. They are bubble wrap for my basilisks and area-denial buffers for enemy deep-strikers. I'm going to take them because I own them and I have had successes with them so far.
No I can't be certain that plasma will become more expensive, but we all know that for what it does on the table, it should be more expensive, and due to their new rules writing ethos, it is not unreasonable to suspect that the points cost can increase in the near future.
fe40k wrote: How viable are our super heavy tanks?
Specifically; do you think a list of 3 super heavies at 2000 points would be durable enough? I don't think that 3 would be tough enough (considering 4 knights can be dealt with), but I'm just curious, because of the following list:
Frankly, it started with me being curious how much dakka I could get out of a Stormlord; ended up with ~119 Heavy Bolter-ish shots, for 800 points. The other two super heavies are for anti-vehicle duty, and extra dakka.
Sure; 800/600/600 points are tied up into the three vehicles which are more vulnerable than I'd like; but, that much dakka coming from the dakka-boat that would be the Stormlord; makes the Ork in me proud .
That said... if this list has to move at all (which it will, since it needs to get in range), its firepower goes down significantly... BS4 => BS5, ouch.
Still... I'm almost tempted to drop the ~$600 to make it a silly reality. But, I doubt I could find opponents down for facing triple-super heavy outside of a tournament (at least it's not quad-heavy Baneblades XD).
Can you squeeze in an Astropath to give the storm Lord +1 save?
I honestly can't say that your summary is wrong. The plasmagun is the obvious choice *at its current price*
That being said, I only have a finite number of plasmagun-wielding guardsmen, so I'm going to put them where they will be the most potent (on BS 3+ veterans). I have a much larger finite quantity of grenade launchers, which I plan to add to my six infantry squads if I have 30pts to play with. Why? Because Grenade Launchers are better and I don't rely on my infantry squads to do the heavy lifting anyhow. They are bubble wrap for my basilisks and area-denial buffers for enemy deep-strikers. I'm going to take them because I own them and I have had successes with them so far.
No I can't be certain that plasma will become more expensive, but we all know that for what it does on the table, it should be more expensive, and due to their new rules writing ethos, it is not unreasonable to suspect that the points cost can increase in the near future.
Well, that seems reasonable. I'm using a few of them because I like the idea of a grenade launcher and right now I don't have to maximize all my slots to win (like last edition, playing vs Necrons and Eldar), but I would never recommend it competitively. If it becomes more expensive, we'll see what happens.
I honestly can't say that your summary is wrong. The plasmagun is the obvious choice *at its current price*
That being said, I only have a finite number of plasmagun-wielding guardsmen, so I'm going to put them where they will be the most potent (on BS 3+ veterans). I have a much larger finite quantity of grenade launchers, which I plan to add to my six infantry squads if I have 30pts to play with. Why? Because Grenade Launchers are better and I don't rely on my infantry squads to do the heavy lifting anyhow. They are bubble wrap for my basilisks and area-denial buffers for enemy deep-strikers. I'm going to take them because I own them and I have had successes with them so far.
No I can't be certain that plasma will become more expensive, but we all know that for what it does on the table, it should be more expensive, and due to their new rules writing ethos, it is not unreasonable to suspect that the points cost can increase in the near future.
Well, that seems reasonable. I'm using a few of them because I like the idea of a grenade launcher and right now I don't have to maximize all my slots to win (like last edition, playing vs Necrons and Eldar), but I would never recommend it competitively. If it becomes more expensive, we'll see what happens.
I think we can agree that:
Flamers are lackluster
Grenade Launchers are fine for friendly pickup games
Plasma and Melta are optimal for competitive tournament games
And snipers? Well, at least they're cheap!
I see far too many people paying for stuff on their super-heavies. It's more than just a weapons platform:
-You are paying for 26! wounds with T8 3+ save.
-You are paying for 9 attacks with Adamantium Tracks.
-You are paying for Steel Behemoth.
It's simply meant to get stuck in.
I share similar sentiments. In my first game of 8th my shadowsword got swarmed by genestealers. I was shocked to see it not only survive but whittle the swarm down with its tracks. Even better, my opponent was shocked to find out that it could still fire its main gun whilst engaged! They are tough AND lethal.
I honestly can't say that your summary is wrong. The plasmagun is the obvious choice *at its current price*
That being said, I only have a finite number of plasmagun-wielding guardsmen, so I'm going to put them where they will be the most potent (on BS 3+ veterans). I have a much larger finite quantity of grenade launchers, which I plan to add to my six infantry squads if I have 30pts to play with. Why? Because Grenade Launchers are better and I don't rely on my infantry squads to do the heavy lifting anyhow. They are bubble wrap for my basilisks and area-denial buffers for enemy deep-strikers. I'm going to take them because I own them and I have had successes with them so far.
No I can't be certain that plasma will become more expensive, but we all know that for what it does on the table, it should be more expensive, and due to their new rules writing ethos, it is not unreasonable to suspect that the points cost can increase in the near future.
Why would you ever take a grenade launcher when you can get more hits by just taking another guardsman for 1 point less? I thought GLs were ok when I first looked at them, but in practice they're just terrible. Guards units are meant to get FRSRF, and a GL gets no benefit from that. Two guardsman get 4 shots total at 24", and cost less than one guardsman with a GL. At 12", they get 8 shots.
GL is bad for normal guardsman. I think its only useable place is on rough riders, if you're using them as a harrasing flanker unit rather than charging them in. RR only get laspistols anyway, and can't take orders. So even the crappy GL is an upgrade.
But since plasma is just better anyway for only 2 more points, the GL just seems like a solution looking for a problem.
Why would you ever take a grenade launcher when you can get more hits by just taking another guardsman for 1 point less?
Because you can't always get another guardsman instead, although the PG is better unless you absolutely can't find 2 points somewhere. But having 5 points left and nowhere else to spend them would be my only scenario. Or well, I use them normally because I like the model, don't really have enough plasma guns to go around, and I don't play competitively that much.
I honestly can't say that your summary is wrong. The plasmagun is the obvious choice *at its current price*
That being said, I only have a finite number of plasmagun-wielding guardsmen, so I'm going to put them where they will be the most potent (on BS 3+ veterans). I have a much larger finite quantity of grenade launchers, which I plan to add to my six infantry squads if I have 30pts to play with. Why? Because Grenade Launchers are better and I don't rely on my infantry squads to do the heavy lifting anyhow. They are bubble wrap for my basilisks and area-denial buffers for enemy deep-strikers. I'm going to take them because I own them and I have had successes with them so far.
No I can't be certain that plasma will become more expensive, but we all know that for what it does on the table, it should be more expensive, and due to their new rules writing ethos, it is not unreasonable to suspect that the points cost can increase in the near future.
Why would you ever take a grenade launcher when you can get more hits by just taking another guardsman for 1 point less? I thought GLs were ok when I first looked at them, but in practice they're just terrible. Guards units are meant to get FRSRF, and a GL gets no benefit from that. Two guardsman get 4 shots total at 24", and cost less than one guardsman with a GL. At 12", they get 8 shots.
GL is bad for normal guardsman. I think its only useable place is on rough riders, if you're using them as a harrasing flanker unit rather than charging them in. RR only get laspistols anyway, and can't take orders. So even the crappy GL is an upgrade.
But since plasma is just better anyway for only 2 more points, the GL just seems like a solution looking for a problem.
Your sentiments are true in general, and I like the idea of putting them on Rough Riders. If you read all of my posts, you will understand my opinion more clearly. Grenade Launchers do fine on BS4+ guardsmen in friendly pickup games, but are underpowered in competitive games. That being said, they are not something you will regret if you have 5-30 points to spare and a few stock infantry squads without special weapons. Losing the 9th lasgun in a squad will never cost you a game, and most guard players have more grenade launchers anyhow, due to the way GW does their sprues.
Why would you ever take a grenade launcher when you can get more hits by just taking another guardsman for 1 point less?
Because you can't always get another guardsman instead, although the PG is better unless you absolutely can't find 2 points somewhere. But having 5 points left and nowhere else to spend them would be my only scenario. Or well, I use them normally because I like the model, don't really have enough plasma guns to go around, and I don't play competitively that much.
ross-128 wrote: Honestly, If I had a random 5 points left over I'd probably spend them giving bolters to Sergeants and company commanders before I picked up a GL.
Since then I'd be picking up 5 S4 shots at 24" for those 5 points instead of 1d6 S3.
I always take bolters where I can, when I can afford to. I agree that they come before Grenade Launcher. But as Ive said before, infantry squads don't do the heavy lifting in my force. They mostly just stand in the way.
fe40k wrote: How viable are our super heavy tanks?
Specifically; do you think a list of 3 super heavies at 2000 points would be durable enough? I don't think that 3 would be tough enough (considering 4 knights can be dealt with), but I'm just curious, because of the following list:
Frankly, it started with me being curious how much dakka I could get out of a Stormlord; ended up with ~119 Heavy Bolter-ish shots, for 800 points. The other two super heavies are for anti-vehicle duty, and extra dakka.
Sure; 800/600/600 points are tied up into the three vehicles which are more vulnerable than I'd like; but, that much dakka coming from the dakka-boat that would be the Stormlord; makes the Ork in me proud .
That said... if this list has to move at all (which it will, since it needs to get in range), its firepower goes down significantly... BS4 => BS5, ouch.
Still... I'm almost tempted to drop the ~$600 to make it a silly reality. But, I doubt I could find opponents down for facing triple-super heavy outside of a tournament (at least it's not quad-heavy Baneblades XD).
Can you squeeze in an Astropath to give the storm Lord +1 save?
Good question.
The list as it stands comes out to 1998 points; if I dropped one of the [2 Twin-Heavy Bolter, 2 Lascannon] sponsons from one of the vehicles I could fit in 2 Astropaths for a flat 2000 points.
That said, only one of them could fit onto the Stormlord, increasing my total drops from 3 to 4; but, +1Save on a tank, and 1 enemy within 18" not getting cover saves is kind of big.
That +1Save would go a LONG way on a super heavy. Hmm...
Those 2 astropaths are only going to run you 30 pts ... so you can still get some more goodies. Additionally, just start them embarked and disembark to use the power. That will save you the drop. Besides, you should only need 1 Astropath anyway since you can only cast 1 of each power.
What units are good counters to Rubric marines? The bonus to save against most of my weaponry is really causing me trouble. Especially when they're dug into cover. And their weaponry is generally nasty as well.
Overcharged plasma is obviously one option, but I don't want to spam it and I only have one real command squad built right now anyway, damn things are still sold out.
argonak wrote: What units are good counters to Rubric marines? The bonus to save against most of my weaponry is really causing me trouble. Especially when they're dug into cover. And their weaponry is generally nasty as well.
Overcharged plasma is obviously one option, but I don't want to spam it and I only have one real command squad built right now anyway, damn things are still sold out.
Hotshot volleyguns. I wipe out MEQ and give TEQ a hard time with them. Alternatively, Culexus assassins?
argonak wrote: What units are good counters to Rubric marines? The bonus to save against most of my weaponry is really causing me trouble. Especially when they're dug into cover. And their weaponry is generally nasty as well.
Overcharged plasma is obviously one option, but I don't want to spam it and I only have one real command squad built right now anyway, damn things are still sold out.
argonak wrote: What units are good counters to Rubric marines? The bonus to save against most of my weaponry is really causing me trouble. Especially when they're dug into cover. And their weaponry is generally nasty as well.
Overcharged plasma is obviously one option, but I don't want to spam it and I only have one real command squad built right now anyway, damn things are still sold out.
Hotshot volleyguns. I wipe out MEQ and give TEQ a hard time with them. Alternatively, Culexus assassins?
I was thinking about those. I'll give a unit with 4 a try in my next game via proxy.
argonak wrote: What units are good counters to Rubric marines? The bonus to save against most of my weaponry is really causing me trouble. Especially when they're dug into cover. And their weaponry is generally nasty as well.
Overcharged plasma is obviously one option, but I don't want to spam it and I only have one real command squad built right now anyway, damn things are still sold out.
How about heavy artillery, such as basilisks?
I really ought to get one of those, but I haven't been able to decide between it and a manticore. I'll try a basilisk and see what I think.
Hey first post in this thread - I'm looking at starting a guard army, but want to do a converted Ork as guard type crossover. It's going to be a fair bit of work so wanted to get a bit of a short rundown on which units to take and which to avoid. I checked the first post but you guys don't have a summary or anything there.
Im fairly new to 40k, haven't faced guard yet, but from what I've heard these units are good to great: Conscripts + commissar, scion command squads, heavy weapon teams, bullgryn and wyverns/basilisks.
Is that fairly accurate? What else would you add to the list? Doesn't have to be purely top tier stuff, but units you think are worthwhile taking in a list. If you can be bothered, a recommendation on weapons for HWTs and the like would be great.
Conscripts are a wall. You need to chew through them, but they don't really do much more damage than a tactical marine squad unless they get really, really lucky. Like "I roll sixes on everything" lucky. Any weapon that does a lot of shots will be their bane; any assault from units that have a lot of attacks will, as well, especially if you use a transport to absorb overwatch. A trio of flamer/combiflamer tactical squads with support (transports and HQ reroll buffs) can take a conscript squad down in one turn of shooting plus assault. Basically, expect to use more than equal points to take them down quickly, but it's not really that hard to do unless your list is kitted out to take on MEQ and only MEQ.
Scions though... scions are legitimately powerful-- equipped with plasmaguns and hitting on 3+, they're strong enough to threaten most units while being cheap enough that overcharging isn't really a problem for them, especially when combined with Orders to reroll ones. They're the real powerhouse unit behind the top tier IG list, and the complaints about conscripts are throwing a smokescreen in front of the actual problem.
cheesedupree wrote: Hey first post in this thread - I'm looking at starting a guard army, but want to do a converted Ork as guard type crossover. It's going to be a fair bit of work so wanted to get a bit of a short rundown on which units to take and which to avoid. I checked the first post but you guys don't have a summary or anything there.
Im fairly new to 40k, haven't faced guard yet, but from what I've heard these units are good to great: Conscripts + commissar, scion command squads, heavy weapon teams, bullgryn and wyverns/basilisks.
Is that fairly accurate? What else would you add to the list? Doesn't have to be purely top tier stuff, but units you think are worthwhile taking in a list. If you can be bothered, a recommendation on weapons for HWTs and the like would be great.
Theres no major "bad" units. Just think to yourself: Okay, can I deal with a landraider, can I deal with hordes? Can I deal with Flyers.
In my list I take zero HWT's, Wyverns, Basilisks, etc. So make it how you want.
Build your army around the units you really want to use. Also convert some meks into sentiels! Would look great I think, they're awesome units anyways (With flamers or powerlifters)
Also a a note, HWTs are super-fragile. Even with a cover bonus, a dev squad with heavy bolters will probably wipe out a full squad every turn. And they require LoS to fire, so if you're bringing a significant number of them, they're going to get shot at and you're going to lose a good portion of them.
Okay sweet cheers for the advice. General idea so far is Boyz as Conscripts, Stormboyz for Scions, Warbikes as Rough Riders and mega armoured Nobs as Bullgryn. Not sure what to duse for Sentinels as I love both the regular sentinel models and the killer kans! Should be a fun conversion project in any case.
Vehicles are going to be the expensive part, as unlike the infantry there isn't a huge amount that can be used as either ork or guard (trying to get two playable armies out of one set of models). Outside the wyvern/basilisk what would you recommend making? Thinking of maybe a Taurox? Not sure how big it is, but it could double as a hardtop battlewagon with some conversion.
argonak wrote: What units are good counters to Rubric marines? The bonus to save against most of my weaponry is really causing me trouble. Especially when they're dug into cover. And their weaponry is generally nasty as well.
Overcharged plasma is obviously one option, but I don't want to spam it and I only have one real command squad built right now anyway, damn things are still sold out.
Hotshot volleyguns. I wipe out MEQ and give TEQ a hard time with them. Alternatively, Culexus assassins?
I was thinking about those. I'll give a unit with 4 a try in my next game via proxy.
argonak wrote: What units are good counters to Rubric marines? The bonus to save against most of my weaponry is really causing me trouble. Especially when they're dug into cover. And their weaponry is generally nasty as well.
Overcharged plasma is obviously one option, but I don't want to spam it and I only have one real command squad built right now anyway, damn things are still sold out.
How about heavy artillery, such as basilisks?
I really ought to get one of those, but I haven't been able to decide between it and a manticore. I'll try a basilisk and see what I think.
I run a batallion of scions: 2 primes and 3 5-man scion units. 230 points base +3CP. Great for stealing objectives and punishing forces that advance quickly. A single five man squad won't be enough, I suspect.
Basilisks are good in multiples as well. If you can't afford 2, 1 might be ok (can't hurt). However many you take, remember that they roll 2d6 and pick the highest to determine the number of shots. A master of ordnance nearby allows them to reroll 1s to hit units more than 36" away.
Basilisks are great since they don't need line of sight, and no longer have a firing arc or minimum range. They are cheaper than the leman Russ, and the earthshaker cannon is better than the battle cannon in so many ways.
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Melissia wrote: Also a a note, HWTs are super-fragile. Even with a cover bonus, a dev squad with heavy bolters will probably wipe out a full squad every turn. And they require LoS to fire, so if you're bringing a significant number of them, they're going to get shot at and you're going to lose a good portion of them.
While I generally agree, 3 mortar teams are 27 pts, do 3d6 shots at 48" range and don't need line of sight. Added bonus: they are a great buffer for my basilisks.
CplPunishment wrote: Basilisks are good in multiples as well. If you can't afford 2, 1 might be ok (can't hurt). However many you take, remember that they roll 2d6 and pick the highest to determine the number of shots. A master of ordnance nearby allows them to reroll 1s to hit units more than 36" away.
If you're buying enough Basilisks that you want a Master of Ordnance as well, strongly consider Sergeant Harker (and <Catachan> Basilisks) over the MoO. Harker has a bigger bubble, no 36"+ restriction, a solid gun, and can affect units outside the Basilisks as well. All for only 12 points more.
Hello guys. Haven't you noticed that sentinels are now OOP / no longer available online ?
GW certainly is planning to redo a codex soon, with an update to sentinel.
necrontyrOG wrote: Anyone had any success with a pure Scion army? I've had a Air-Cav stormtrooper army for a few years now, and am wondering how they would play.
"Pure" Scions doesn't really work since there's the rule that you can't have more than half your units in Tactical Reserve, so you're either bringing lots and lots of Tauroxes or you're mixing in some foot units (Conscripts, Heavy Weapons, artillery vehicles). You can run a list that's like, a Valkyrie or two, several Tauroxes, and Scions, but there's not a lot of variance in something like that.
On the whole, Scions are great. They generally can pop in and remove an important model/unit per drop, especially with Orders. Just have to be careful in that they're made of paper.
CplPunishment wrote: While I generally agree, 3 mortar teams are 27 pts, do 3d6 shots at 48" range and don't need line of sight. Added bonus: they are a great buffer for my basilisks.
Mortar teams are nice, but be aware that having a lot of them takes up a lot of space so you're still gonna have them be shot at.
That said they aren't as efficient to be shot at as autocannon or lascannon teams, so...
CplPunishment wrote: Basilisks are good in multiples as well. If you can't afford 2, 1 might be ok (can't hurt). However many you take, remember that they roll 2d6 and pick the highest to determine the number of shots. A master of ordnance nearby allows them to reroll 1s to hit units more than 36" away.
If you're buying enough Basilisks that you want a Master of Ordnance as well, strongly consider Sergeant Harker (and <Catachan> Basilisks) over the MoO. Harker has a bigger bubble, no 36"+ restriction, a solid gun, and can affect units outside the Basilisks as well. All for only 12 points more.
Using Harker is a solid idea, provided you want to use the Catachan regiment keyword. Right now the only keywords worth using are CATACHAN and CADIA, but we'll see what happens in the upcoming codex (maybe the other regiments will get some lovin').
That is not how I prefer to use him, however. I field Harker with two Plasma/Lascannon Vet squads and a Company commander (3+ to hit, 2-3+ to wound, rerolling 1s to hit and wound is NICE). When I take a Shadowsword, I give it the CATACHAN keyword and park him and his cohort next to that for more fun.
When it comes to Basilisks, I field two pairs as far away from each other as possible--unless the deployment zone makes that inadvisable. Each pair has a MoO babysitting, preferably with a good vantage point so he hits on 3+. (A nearby company commander can further maximize the effectiveness of his one-use barrage by ordering him to take aim). The theory is that each battery can cover for the other, while infantry stymies incoming forces. So far it has worked well, but I have only recently adopted this strategy so time will tell.
necrontyrOG wrote: Anyone had any success with a pure Scion army? I've had a Air-Cav stormtrooper army for a few years now, and am wondering how they would play.
I'm planning to run one when I next get the chance. If/when I manage to get a game with it, I'll let you know how it goes.
CplPunishment wrote: While I generally agree, 3 mortar teams are 27 pts, do 3d6 shots at 48" range and don't need line of sight. Added bonus: they are a great buffer for my basilisks.
Mortar teams are nice, but be aware that having a lot of them takes up a lot of space so you're still gonna have them be shot at.
That said they aren't as efficient to be shot at as autocannon or lascannon teams, so...
They've worked nicely so far. They're cheap, have excellent range, harass things they can't see and act as a nice buffer for my basilisks. I want them to take up space to deny deepstrikers. As a rule of thumb, I take one mortar squad for every two basilisks. It's like a poor man's wyvern. I like it so far because it is a cheap way to fill out a Brigade and a Vanguard to maximize CPs.
Ravajaxe wrote: Hello guys. Haven't you noticed that sentinels are now OOP / no longer available online ?
GW certainly is planning to redo a codex soon, with an update to sentinel.
I think they're just getting repackaged for 8th, like a lot of things.
Not that I'd complain about a new sentinel, even if I did just buy two of them last month. The kit isn't terrible, but it could certainly benefit from a refurb. Especially if they upped it to 3 sentinels, and priced it similiarly to the killa kans.
necrontyrOG wrote: Anyone had any success with a pure Scion army? I've had a Air-Cav stormtrooper army for a few years now, and am wondering how they would play.
"Pure" Scions doesn't really work since there's the rule that you can't have more than half your units in Tactical Reserve, so you're either bringing lots and lots of Tauroxes or you're mixing in some foot units (Conscripts, Heavy Weapons, artillery vehicles). You can run a list that's like, a Valkyrie or two, several Tauroxes, and Scions, but there's not a lot of variance in something like that.
On the whole, Scions are great. They generally can pop in and remove an important model/unit per drop, especially with Orders. Just have to be careful in that they're made of paper.
Well, there's nothing that says you have to deep strike your scions. A unit with 4 HSVGs seems like it would make a solid base of fire for a battle line.
cheesedupree wrote: Hey first post in this thread - I'm looking at starting a guard army, but want to do a converted Ork as guard type crossover. It's going to be a fair bit of work so wanted to get a bit of a short rundown on which units to take and which to avoid. I checked the first post but you guys don't have a summary or anything there.
Im fairly new to 40k, haven't faced guard yet, but from what I've heard these units are good to great: Conscripts + commissar, scion command squads, heavy weapon teams, bullgryn and wyverns/basilisks.
Is that fairly accurate? What else would you add to the list? Doesn't have to be purely top tier stuff, but units you think are worthwhile taking in a list. If you can be bothered, a recommendation on weapons for HWTs and the like would be great.
CplPunishment wrote: Basilisks are good in multiples as well. If you can't afford 2, 1 might be ok (can't hurt). However many you take, remember that they roll 2d6 and pick the highest to determine the number of shots. A master of ordnance nearby allows them to reroll 1s to hit units more than 36" away.
If you're buying enough Basilisks that you want a Master of Ordnance as well, strongly consider Sergeant Harker (and <Catachan> Basilisks) over the MoO. Harker has a bigger bubble, no 36"+ restriction, a solid gun, and can affect units outside the Basilisks as well. All for only 12 points more.
Using Harker is a solid idea, provided you want to use the Catachan regiment keyword. Right now the only keywords worth using are CATACHAN and CADIA, but we'll see what happens in the upcoming codex (maybe the other regiments will get some lovin').
That is not how I prefer to use him, however. I field Harker with two Plasma/Lascannon Vet squads and a Company commander (3+ to hit, 2-3+ to wound, rerolling 1s to hit and wound is NICE). When I take a Shadowsword, I give it the CATACHAN keyword and park him and his cohort next to that for more fun.
When it comes to Basilisks, I field two pairs as far away from each other as possible--unless the deployment zone makes that inadvisable. Each pair has a MoO babysitting, preferably with a good vantage point so he hits on 3+. (A nearby company commander can further maximize the effectiveness of his one-use barrage by ordering him to take aim). The theory is that each battery can cover for the other, while infantry stymies incoming forces. So far it has worked well, but I have only recently adopted this strategy so time will tell.
Definitely seems viable although it costs a good bit just to allow reroll 1s.
CplPunishment wrote: Basilisks are good in multiples as well. If you can't afford 2, 1 might be ok (can't hurt). However many you take, remember that they roll 2d6 and pick the highest to determine the number of shots. A master of ordnance nearby allows them to reroll 1s to hit units more than 36" away.
If you're buying enough Basilisks that you want a Master of Ordnance as well, strongly consider Sergeant Harker (and <Catachan> Basilisks) over the MoO. Harker has a bigger bubble, no 36"+ restriction, a solid gun, and can affect units outside the Basilisks as well. All for only 12 points more.
Using Harker is a solid idea, provided you want to use the Catachan regiment keyword. Right now the only keywords worth using are CATACHAN and CADIA, but we'll see what happens in the upcoming codex (maybe the other regiments will get some lovin').
That is not how I prefer to use him, however. I field Harker with two Plasma/Lascannon Vet squads and a Company commander (3+ to hit, 2-3+ to wound, rerolling 1s to hit and wound is NICE). When I take a Shadowsword, I give it the CATACHAN keyword and park him and his cohort next to that for more fun.
When it comes to Basilisks, I field two pairs as far away from each other as possible--unless the deployment zone makes that inadvisable. Each pair has a MoO babysitting, preferably with a good vantage point so he hits on 3+. (A nearby company commander can further maximize the effectiveness of his one-use barrage by ordering him to take aim). The theory is that each battery can cover for the other, while infantry stymies incoming forces. So far it has worked well, but I have only recently adopted this strategy so time will tell.
Definitely seems viable although it costs a good bit just to allow reroll 1s.
I sure seems that way, but Basilisks are some of the heavy lifters in my army and I need them operating at peak performance. In addition, the MoO's barrage ability can be devastating. I am confident that an MoO is a unit that can earn back its 38 pts by buffing nearby units and calling in an artillery strike. Harker is needed elsewhere buffing my other heavy lifters. I will keep playtesting this list, and time will tell just how efficient it is.
How do people like Yarrick? I've been using Pask. But now that he can't order himself (Not that I'm implying he ever could, it was just how myself, and others, played it)
With the punisher turret, meltas, and lascannon. He is 257 pts which often gets destroyed very easily. Or charged. Or just doesn't do much.
I was looking at Yarrick as I will just have him, a company commander, and conscripts on the board.
Besides that a vulture, thunderbolt, marauder destroyer, 2 sentinels, 2 Cyclops, and 2 vindicares. Everything else is deepstriking.
Well Yarrick can allow rerolls of all Astra Militarum units. So if you can get him close to some flyers, he'll probably be more beneficial than Pask haha.
That's an interesting list haha. What's up with the 2 Vindicares? Those bums could net you a freaking Valkyrie!
Typically a 1-2 Punch of Scions then Eversor + Rough Riders. The Valkyries are also so bad offensively that I've had more than 1 game that I've been able to return to my lines, pick up a 2nd unit, then drop them off somewhere. Nobody cares to shoot them lol.
vipoid wrote: I've got a question for you guys: obviously IG can hold their own objectives just fine, but what about taking your opponent's objectives?
What units do you use to accomplish this?
Shoot them off it.
If that fails (or I need to capture it myself), Death Riders/Rough Riders, Hellhounds and Scions work just fine.
I haven't fielded it yet, but a Dual Heavy Flamer-Chimera with 2 SWS-squads can probably work well too.
vipoid wrote: I've got a question for you guys: obviously IG can hold their own objectives just fine, but what about taking your opponent's objectives?
What units do you use to accomplish this?
It's probably not the right answer, but whatever's left of the power weapon / plasmagun infantry squads I marched across the board.
Colonel Cross wrote: Typically a 1-2 Punch of Scions then Eversor + Rough Riders. The Valkyries are also so bad offensively that I've had more than 1 game that I've been able to return to my lines, pick up a 2nd unit, then drop them off somewhere. Nobody cares to shoot them lol.
You know that's rather an interesting bonus for being under armed and overly tough.
"Fly Valkyrie, no one will take you seriously until its too late."
I run one with my Ultramarines firebase consisting of Gullyman and 2 Terminus Ultras.
I have been running the Stormlord with 28 Conscripts, 4 plasma command squad, 3 plasma special weapons team a commander and an Astropath.
-Astropath buffs the tank +1 save.
- Plasma dudes usually stay in Stormlord and shoot out of it.
- Conscripts either shield my Tanks against deep strikers or they jump out when needed ( especially in relic missions)
Generally this setup seems to work pretty good. However there are some weaknesses.
The Strormlord generally wants to sit still due to bs4 if I move I go to bs5. I do however see that this thing might actually be better to get up close and get into combat.
I struggle against horde armies and I was thinking of ditching the Plasma dudes and conscripts and just adding in a scion squad with 2 plasma ( my troops) and adding 5 morter teams.
18 d6 s4 shots looks like it should do pretty good against all types of horde units. Especially with the ability to ignore cover and pretty much cover the field. I could use them to block deep strikes as well if needed.
My advice to you would be to put heavy bolter heavy weapons squads in the stormlord and then put heavy flamer sponsons on it. Then get that beast into CC with a horde unit.
Failing the points for that, the mortars would do ok, but S4 AP- and D6 shots isn't exactly the answer to horde armies if you ever move that thing as pretty much everything will still get a save. They are dirt cheap though, so try out a few different combos.
I will say this though, with that # of lascannons, why bother with plasma at all? haha.
yea I want to give the heavy flamers a try. seems so darn deadly. To add them I would have to go with 1, 10 man troop squad, 2 Heavy Bolter squads and 1 Morter squad. that puts me at 2000pts
I say good to go on that! Seems like a good ratio of everything. At that point, who cares about bubble wrapping the Stormlord if it has that many heavy flamers? haha. Just need those 10 dudes for your Terminus Ultras.
yea.. going to give this a run. the only time I might need more than the 10 dudes to bubble wrap is if I'm playing against a lot of deep striking plasma scions ( played against 6 of them last night) but I can toss out a heavy weapon squad if needed. 10 dudes are just shy at bubble wrapping the 3 vehicals.
scommy wrote: With no more combined squads, how can foot guard avoid getting rekt in kill point games?
From what I've seen, tell them they've won before the game begins and move on to the next game hoping for a different game mode.
A quick question for other Guard players, if you had a choice between bringing one Valkyrie or one Vendetta for a 50pl/1000pt list, which would you choose?
scommy wrote: With no more combined squads, how can foot guard avoid getting rekt in kill point games?
Might as well just concede.
I don't know why GW doesn't just give each side 50 KP have it divided by the number of units. At least then you'd have equivalent total possible scores.
Colonel Cross wrote: Well Yarrick can allow rerolls of all Astra Militarum units. So if you can get him close to some flyers, he'll probably be more beneficial than Pask haha.
That's an interesting list haha. What's up with the 2 Vindicares? Those bums could net you a freaking Valkyrie!
They do work. Tough to kill. Characters. And Character killers. They can delete a character every turn. And most armies need them in order to run their army.
Not only is it a good unit. Its an issue for my opponents. Knowing they are there. Popping off their characters. Besides, valkaries kinda suck.
Guess it's just my local meta but I initially was running 2x5 Ratling squads and a Vindicare. They did ok but I'd rather spend the 190pts on almost anything else.
scommy wrote: With no more combined squads, how can foot guard avoid getting rekt in kill point games?
Table the opponent?
If that's not possible, just play the game and have a laugh. Perhaps discuss with your opponent why the lives of guardsmen are suddenly being valued to highly. At the end, nod politely when your opponent says that he won and don't bother pointing out that his Space Marines have lost about half their gene seed or that his Eldar have lost yet more of their dwindling race, while you've only lost some of the most expendable troops in the universe.
scommy wrote: With no more combined squads, how can foot guard avoid getting rekt in kill point games?
Table them. Failing that, see if they'd be ok with PL value = KP. You'll still likely have more potential KP on the board, but it'll be a lot closer and it makes things like Knights actually meaningful to kill.
pismakron wrote: Or better yet: Don't play killpoints. Killpoints suck.
Yeah, I never liked them. Back in 7th they were basically an auto-lose for my DE, and in spite of being a 1/6 chance we seemed to end up playing them about 9 times out of 10.
scommy wrote: With no more combined squads, how can foot guard avoid getting rekt in kill point games?
Table them. Failing that, see if they'd be ok with PL value = KP. You'll still likely have more potential KP on the board, but it'll be a lot closer and it makes things like Knights actually meaningful to kill.
Has anyone tried running 3 x 10 ratlings? 210 points and they'd average 5 mortal wounds on characters per turn (no matter the characters toughness) with 2/3 more wounds on a MEQ (even more on a GEQ ) . I don't know Bobby Gs stats currently but that firepower would certainly kill any of our characters in a turn. There is a lot of talk of basing a list around Harker or Straken. Hell if someone took out my commissar then my conscripts are going to suffer a lot more wounds after a bit of close combat.
I get that due to their terrible Ld there is a good chance they're going to get wiped, especially if (as AM tend to ) go second. Alternatively just embrace it and take 6 x 5 ratlings and force the en to waste an entire turn shooting. (4+ save if they are in cover)
CaptainO wrote: Has anyone tried running 3 x 10 ratlings? 210 points and they'd average 5 mortal wounds on characters per turn (no matter the characters toughness) with 2/3 more wounds on a MEQ (even more on a GEQ ) . I don't know Bobby Gs stats currently but that firepower would certainly kill any of our characters in a turn. There is a lot of talk of basing a list around Harker or Straken. Hell if someone took out my commissar then my conscripts are going to suffer a lot more wounds after a bit of close combat.
I get that due to their terrible Ld there is a good chance they're going to get wiped, especially if (as AM tend to ) go second. Alternatively just embrace it and take 6 x 5 ratlings and force the en to waste an entire turn shooting. (4+ save if they are in cover)
I've really soured on Ratlings lately. My opponents have been singling them out with their 'loose change' firepower and utterly wrecking them. A 4+ save that is likely a 5+ or worse after AP doesn't do much when almost every gun in the game wounds them on 2's. The worst are Imperial Fists Intercessors. Hit on 3's, wound on 2's, no save. My only recourse is to have them out of LOS and move-shoot-move with them. But at that point, they're hitting on 4's.
Ya I thought that might be the case. With their low toughness and Ld they have the staying power of an absent father.
If you managed to have a low drop count army (shadow sword packed with dudes or lots of deep strike scions) then the 3 x 10 might actually get the first turn. The ability to take out a key character is really appealing .Taking out an ork weirdboy(z/s) would definitely cause havoc with greenskins and I'm sure the nids have something similar (characters with less than 10 wounds that buff a large number of units)
With "find the best spot" do ratlings count towards "who finished putting down the last unit first"?
tabling in a kill point game isn't always going to win you the game. The book mission, yes, NOVA and other tournaments where you can accumulate points it won't. But if you can manage to accumulate more than your opponent and do a final charge into his lines and die a glorious death that might work.
I have a recast Vulture on the way and will potentially be buying a second from Forge World this week and didn't see a lot of discussion on them, is anyone modeling/playing with them that could answer a few questions?
1. Do any of their weapon options compete favorably with the TL Punisher? At least one of them will be equipped with it but kitting one out as anti-armor would shore up a lot of holes in my lists.
2. People who have built them, it looks like it ships with Hellstrike missiles and multiple rocket pods and nothing else. I see that Punishers are sold separately, but what are you using to represent twin autocannon/lascannon/multi-laser? Twin las seemed like a good replacement if not going with Punishers.
3. What are reasonable alternatives/proxies or conversions people are using to represent Vultures, and would they look good alongside 1-2 regular Vultures?
I don't think you'll get more bang for your buck than the dual punishers. 43 S5 shots with strafing run sub 150pts is hard to top. The other weapon options can easily be fitted into the rest of your army (Hydras, LR Annihilator tanks)
Leth wrote: Honestly with orders I have a hard time justifying special weapons on the scions. Keep them cheap and sacrificial. A few scions drop in with a tempestor and you try to position them for some character hunting.
...
What.
Take two 10 men Scion Squads with 4 plasma guns and a plasma pistol. 133 points each with a vox. Take a Tempestus for 40. You now have 8 (overcharged) plasma shots at 24" and EIGHTEEN (overcharged) plasma shots at 12", that hit on 3+ and re-roll all 1s on the hit roll (massively limiting overheating casualties) thanks to orders. And that's before even considering all those hotshot guns throwing in their weight as well. They completely outclass Executioner Russes or those new plasma Primaris marines. And you can place them anywhere on the board where you want, right in cover for a 3+ save.
People should stop treating them as suicide units only, they now have serious potential in simply reinforcing a battle line. They are VERY cost efficient and extremely flexible as they come with a free and risk free "place anywhere on the board" transport built in (unlike veterans or command squads which need a very pricy chimera/taurox/valkyrie). Playing against assault armies that rush you? Place in your gunline and slaughter elite units after popping their transport. Playing a board with tons of spread out objectives? Nab them with the Scions and discourage units from going there with the massed firepower. Playing against tau? Place them 9" away, blast two suit units away and then proceed to move-rapid fire-assault with them in the following turns.
They are an extremely point efficient nightmare for any marine army and elite unit. 16 points for a 3+ to hit plasma gun with a 3+ save in cover who will re-roll 1s to hit and overcharge as much as they want. A single squad of them with the 5x plasma set-up will downright delete any terminator unit from the board in one shooting phase at 12" with the Take Aim! order if it doesn't have storm shields (if that is even enough to save them with all the D2 wounds they'll have to save).
So would you suggest using Scions with plasma weapons in exchange of guardsman? Or would you say they are better served reinforcing and supporting standard infantry guardsmen?
1. Do any of their weapon options compete favorably with the TL Punisher? At least one of them will be equipped with it but kitting one out as anti-armor would shore up a lot of holes in my lists.
Not at the price. I think the next-best option is probably twin lascannon and either 2 hellstrikes or 6 hunter-killer missiles, depending on whether you want to alpha or sustain. That or just fielding the Vendetta. Those gun options are ~40 points more than the twin punishers, and the Vendetta is 70 more, so it's pretty hard to make a case for them.
I used leftover HWT Lascannons to convert my Valkyries into Vendettas way back in 5th, I'm sure you could do the same for yours. Just use a bit of sprue as a rail, and glue the weapons to either side. Then attach to the hull, preferably with magnets.
More Dakka wrote: Vendettas are way overpriced without any Heavy Weapon rules mitigation. You're most things on 5's and you're hitting supersonic flyers on 6's
You can always just hover, and treat Supersonic like a short "bonus" before your first turn. I don't disagree that they're overpiced, though, and if they're just going to be static shooting you should probably just take Lascannon HWT instead. Or, you know, a super-heavy, since just two of them is already pushing Shadowsword-level cost.
But at that point you're better off just taking 2x LR Annihilators, which at least have some staying power and can move a considerable distance with orders.
on the topic of annihilators/anti tank, what does everyone think of the Valdor. I have two, and I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the fact that they're better at killing infantry than a Leman Russ battle tank is.
on the topic of annihilators/anti tank, what does everyone think of the Valdor. I have two, and I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the fact that they're better at killing infantry than a Leman Russ battle tank is.
Are valdors... actually good now?
Well, a Valdor is a 374 pts LoW choice... Two Leman Russes are better against infantry and cheaper.
Is it worth taking? It's basically a poor man's Shadowsword. Very high strength, a tad more shots but less damage along with a nice bonus -hit if the enemy is wounded. It'll kill a vehicle every other turn or so instead of one more or less every turn. I think a Shadowsword is a better choice but the Valdor can be usable, although it requires some good targets.
zedsdead wrote: Looks like with the upcoming "Chapter Approved " mission book. Mixing Astra Militarium and Scions will lose you Objective secured on your troops.
Fortunately 'Militarum Tempestus' is the regiment, not faction so we're not affected by it.
Also, is running a Vulture pretty cheesy? Thinking about converting a Valkyrie to one but I don't want to be 'That Guy'.
Razerous wrote: Roughly when is the new codex being released?
Rumor mill is saying October. Which means we'll probably know for sure in early September. I'm honestly a bit nervous about what GW is going to do to drum up sales once they've burned through all the codex releases.
zedsdead wrote: Looks like with the upcoming "Chapter Approved " mission book. Mixing Astra Militarium and Scions will lose you Objective secured on your troops.
Fortunately 'Militarum Tempestus' is the regiment, not faction so we're not affected by it.
Also, is running a Vulture pretty cheesy? Thinking about converting a Valkyrie to one but I don't want to be 'That Guy'.
They don't look at all overpowered, and they're forgeworld so they're entirely legal.
zedsdead wrote: Looks like with the upcoming "Chapter Approved " mission book. Mixing Astra Militarium and Scions will lose you Objective secured on your troops.
Fortunately 'Militarum Tempestus' is the regiment, not faction so we're not affected by it.
Also, is running a Vulture pretty cheesy? Thinking about converting a Valkyrie to one but I don't want to be 'That Guy'.
Actually objective secure requires all of the units in the same detatchement to share the same <faction> keyword. "Militarum Tempestus" can not be replaced by any other <regiment> name. So conscripts or other non Tempestus units will conflict with it. The requirement falls within what is in the parentheses not the other keywords.
zedsdead wrote: Looks like with the upcoming "Chapter Approved " mission book. Mixing Astra Militarium and Scions will lose you Objective secured on your troops.
Fortunately 'Militarum Tempestus' is the regiment, not faction so we're not affected by it.
Also, is running a Vulture pretty cheesy? Thinking about converting a Valkyrie to one but I don't want to be 'That Guy'.
The Leviathan Dreadnought can put out 22D3 str 9 ap -5 2D shots against a 50man unit of conscripts for about 280 points. I think the vulture is relatively tame compared to that.
zedsdead wrote: Looks like with the upcoming "Chapter Approved " mission book. Mixing Astra Militarium and Scions will lose you Objective secured on your troops.
Fortunately 'Militarum Tempestus' is the regiment, not faction so we're not affected by it.
Also, is running a Vulture pretty cheesy? Thinking about converting a Valkyrie to one but I don't want to be 'That Guy'.
The Leviathan Dreadnought can put out 22D3 str 9 ap -5 2D shots against a 50man unit of conscripts for about 280 points. I think the vulture is relatively tame compared to that.
Good heavens. O_O
Well, I was curious as to which gunship is better for an all rounder build, a Vendetta with 3 TLLCs or a Vulture with 1 TLLC and 6 HKMs/2 Hellstrike missiles? Both have a good chance to alpha the crap out an enemy's army and while the Vendetta's alpha is consistent, for some reason it's not able to shoot at BS3+ like the Vulture can.
The Mars-Alpha pattern is strictly superior to the normal one because it gets a bonus it does not have to pay for. The Conqueror battle cannon is better than the normal battle cannon because the loss of range usually does not matter much and it easily gets twin-linked within 24", for only 3 points more.
Realized yesterday just how savage Colonel Straken can be. He's 4 attacks base, which is ok, but it gets better: he himself benefits from his +1 attack buff in the fight phase. A nearby priest will buff him to 6 attacks. Even better, if he orders himself to fix bayonets, he gets to punch the enemy again in the shooting phase (he doesn't give himself the bonus attack here due to wording, but a nearby priest does).
In my last game he used heroic intervention and counter charge to disrupt combat. 17 attacks in Turn 1 (6 in his fight phase, 5 in my shooting phase, 6 in my fight phase) at WS2+ S6 D2, rerolling failed wounds against monsters was enough to remove the flying hive tyrant before Turn 2. His only down side is AP-1, meaning most heavily armored units will get a somewhat decent save against his attacks.
He was MVP, followed by the nearby Harker and his Lascannon/plasma vets.
Lessons learned: make sure your vets have some meatshields. Straken, a priest, a commissar lord and Harker buff themselves, each other and all around them nicely.
Straken, priest, commissar and Harker are a great buff supergroup. Throw in an astropath for only 15pts and you have a mini deathstar (more so if surrounded by infantry or conscripts) 225 pts with one plasma pistol on 2+ one on 3+(commissar) not to mention Harkers assault heavy bolter also on 3+. All with reroll ones.
Can straken definitely order himself to fix bayonets?
Plus it doesn't make sense that you can order yourself. "Shoot them again.....ME!" "OKAY!"
Pask was FAQ'd on this as well. Its different than an aura. Voice of command says something something, orders troops under their command. It would be cool if I was wrong. But I wouldn't play it like that in any case.
I haven't seen this explicitly FAQ'd. Maybe I need to check recent updates. That being said, he was standing next to a company commander. Can they orderceach other?
Plus it doesn't make sense that you can order yourself. "Shoot them again.....ME!" "OKAY!"
Pask was FAQ'd on this as well. Its different than an aura. Voice of command says something something, orders troops under their command. It would be cool if I was wrong. But I wouldn't play it like that in any case.
In the case of Straken, I think it would be more along the lines of "****it men! Do I have to kill everything myself? "
on the topic of annihilators/anti tank, what does everyone think of the Valdor. I have two, and I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the fact that they're better at killing infantry than a Leman Russ battle tank is.
Are valdors... actually good now?
Well, a Valdor is a 374 pts LoW choice... Two Leman Russes are better against infantry and cheaper.
Is it worth taking? It's basically a poor man's Shadowsword. Very high strength, a tad more shots but less damage along with a nice bonus -hit if the enemy is wounded. It'll kill a vehicle every other turn or so instead of one more or less every turn. I think a Shadowsword is a better choice but the Valdor can be usable, although it requires some good targets.
So probably shouldn't take one? I own 2 from the Heresy (where they were spectacular) and don't really know if I should bring them into 40k or not.
Straken is indeed a savage, I realized this when, after all his infantry died around him, he killed a unit of genestealers on his own and went on to kill their patriarch. Since them I've had him gut Celestine, finish off an Imperial Knight, and rip apart a Taurox with his bare hands all in the same game. You can absolutely build around him with a bunch of infantry and a priest. Give him the +1 attack on charge WL trait for SEVEN attacks on the charge and an Astropath to give him a 2+/4++. He is an absolute monster and no one sees him coming until it's too late.
Edit: Regarding Vulture loadouts I think there is a case to be made for the Rocket pods. No you don't get 40 shots (you get 4d6, 1D6 per pod), but you get 72" range and -1AP. This means you never need to move so you'll be hitting whatever you want on turn 1 at BS3+. -1AP is really nice; it's never wasted and STR5 is also the sweet spot. I'm considering trying out 2 pods with Lascannons or 4 pods on my Vulture instead of the Gatlings because they seems rather underwhelming to me this edition.
Plus it doesn't make sense that you can order yourself. "Shoot them again.....ME!" "OKAY!"
It also doesn't make sense that you can't shoot a CCB because there's a Scarab Swarm in front of it. Nor does it make sense that a unit that stops to shoot and then stops again to fight can somehow still cover more ground than one which spends its entire turn running. Those are the rules whether they make sense or not.
Plus it doesn't make sense that you can order yourself. "Shoot them again.....ME!" "OKAY!"
Pask was FAQ'd on this as well. Its different than an aura. Voice of command says something something, orders troops under their command. It would be cool if I was wrong. But I wouldn't play it like that in any case.
In the case of Straken, I think it would be more along the lines of "****it men! Do I have to kill everything myself? "
Otto von Bludd wrote: Straken is indeed a savage, I realized this when, after all his infantry died around him, he killed a unit of genestealers on his own and went on to kill their patriarch. Since them I've had him gut Celestine, finish off an Imperial Knight, and rip apart a Taurox with his bare hands all in the same game. You can absolutely build around him with a bunch of infantry and a priest. Give him the +1 attack on charge WL trait for SEVEN attacks on the charge and an Astropath to give him a 2+/4++. He is an absolute monster and no one sees him coming until it's too late.
You played AM against AM? (Straken v Taurox). How did you fair. I can't find any battle reports with guard on guard action.
Otto von Bludd wrote: Officers could order themselves in 7th couldn't they? I don't see anything forbidding it this edition.
Unfortunately precedent means nothing. That being said, I have yet to see anything that explicitly restricts it. I will take a closer look at rules and faqs later.
Otto von Bludd wrote: Edit: Regarding Vulture loadouts I think there is a case to be made for the Rocket pods. No you don't get 40 shots (you get 4d6, 1D6 per pod), but you get 72" range and -1AP. This means you never need to move so you'll be hitting whatever you want on turn 1 at BS3+. -1AP is really nice; it's never wasted and STR5 is also the sweet spot. I'm considering trying out 2 pods with Lascannons or 4 pods on my Vulture instead of the Gatlings because they seems rather underwhelming to me this edition.
On average, the twin punishers will do more damage moving around than the quad rocket pods will do while sitting stationary. Yeah, the 36"* range is neat, but you are nearly halving your firepower. And you pay 4 more points for the pods.
Edit: I thought something was off. MRPs are 36" range.
Given the Pask FAQ and inferring the intent of the rules as written, I'm inclined to believe officers cannot be ordered.
Possibly even more useful than ordering the likes of Yarrick or Pask to fight in the shooting phase is ordering an officer to MOVE MOVE MOVE! in order to keep up with the units that have already done so. I find myself running troops to grab OBJs and then the ordering officer is left in the dust.
and therefore be on the other (back) side of my line of conscripts or do they have to move 3" around the edge of my existing wall/line of models?
).
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