Saw this on Lady Atia's blog.
"Howdy Guys and Girls
A white raven appeared today and brought me a message - winter is coming ...
Warhammer 40k turns 30 years old next year. The new edition is due. The clock will be taken from 5 minutes to midnight to 1 minute to midnight with the return of the Daemonprimarchs - or will they return alone? This is the theme of the new setting - think along the lines of 13th Black Crusade - but this time, it's serious. They want to get the same excitement as the community had during the End Times - without actually going as far as Age of Sigmar did.
Chaos fans - this is your hour. Stop beeing grudgy, there will be lots of love for all of you - renegades, former legions, daemon lovers.
The lore already start to unfold, with the Shield of Baal and Warzone Fenris - so we are already within the action. As usual, this is a bit of an early talk, so stay cool and take it with a tiny bit of salt.
regards,
Lady Atia"
Can't wait. I've held off on a chaos army due to the plastics being older, maybe now they'll get some nice stuff?
I am hoping that we see more from Shield of Baal. Khorne Daemons (and possibly Chaos Space Marines) are attacking Baal while the Tyranids are making their way there. So the Blood Angels and their Successors are fighting on two fronts. This seems like a great place to release the Tyranid and Blood Angels Decurion-type detachments. They could even release more formations for Khorne Daemons or Khorne Daemonkin that could be used with their existing stuff.
If the CSM rules and units work it'll be great, if they don't the whole campaign and storyline just kinda falls flat on its face.
The fundamentals of the CSM codex are flawed and so grossly inadequate next to the Loyalists, that if its just a patch job in the form of the campaign add-on rules other armies have gotten, CSM will still fail as a viable threat. It needs so much more to be representative and capable. In all likelihood we'll just be pushed to play these 3, 4, or 5 new units/models spammed by a formation several times and then patted on the back by other players and told everything's good now. I hope that's not the case.
I heard that Fulgrim will have Doomrider's old rule where he has a chance to randomly disappear each turn. This is balanced by him being the cheapest of the daemon primarch's - only 666 pts.
So what, Space Wolves = Magnus?
That leaves most of the primarchs unaccounted for.
We know a large khornate force was headed to Baal, so maybe Angron will pop up there? Lots of potential with the Blood Angels.
Will be interesting for sure. Can only hope chaos becomes a true force, lorewise and on the tabletop. I have good faith in Roundtree so maybe they've made a book addressing all the chaos player complaints.
Yeah, i can see that already. It'll be 300 pages long.....XD jk
Been burned too many times by rumours of Legions, Platic Cult marines, new rules and the timeline moving forward. It's a nice thing to hope for but I'm not getting excited over new Chaos rumours anymore
casvalremdeikun wrote: I am hoping that we see more from Shield of Baal. Khorne Daemons (and possibly Chaos Space Marines) are attacking Baal while the Tyranids are making their way there. So the Blood Angels and their Successors are fighting on two fronts. This seems like a great place to release the Tyranid and Blood Angels Decurion-type detachments. They could even release more formations for Khorne Daemons or Khorne Daemonkin that could be used with their existing stuff.
As of the end of Mont'ka Farsight is fighting off another hive fleet and it sounds like he is having trouble with their numbers.
Charax wrote: Been burned too many times by rumours of Legions, Platic Cult marines, new rules and the timeline moving forward. It's a nice thing to hope for but I'm not getting excited over new Chaos rumours anymore
In this case, this is from someone that has been shown to be pretty accurate in the past. So, while this is hardly golden, it is pretty close.
The problem is that we will probably get all this stuff shortly before the edition change and then the stuff we get will be turned to crap.
Charax wrote: Been burned too many times by rumours of Legions, Platic Cult marines, new rules and the timeline moving forward. It's a nice thing to hope for but I'm not getting excited over new Chaos rumours anymore
In this case, this is from someone that has been shown to be pretty accurate in the past. So, while this is hardly golden, it is pretty close.
The problem is that we will probably get all this stuff shortly before the edition change and then the stuff we get will be turned to crap.
Actually, based on both this and Panda's rumours, it seems like the new chaos codex will be for 8th edition, not 7th. Though the new Thoasand Sons stuff is likely going to stay seventh, here's to hoping *8h's a bit better!
Exciting news. The end times seemed to be pretty well received by fantasy players, let's hope they do as good a job with 40K. I'm very interested to see where the studio goes with 8th edition. I'm really hoping for a grounds up rewrite.
Charax wrote: Been burned too many times by rumours of Legions, Platic Cult marines, new rules and the timeline moving forward. It's a nice thing to hope for but I'm not getting excited over new Chaos rumours anymore
In this case, this is from someone that has been shown to be pretty accurate in the past. So, while this is hardly golden, it is pretty close.
The problem is that we will probably get all this stuff shortly before the edition change and then the stuff we get will be turned to crap.
Actually, based on both this and Panda's rumours, it seems like the new chaos codex will be for 8th edition, not 7th. Though the new Thoasand Sons stuff is likely going to stay seventh, here's to hoping *8h's a bit better!
Being the first codex in an edition is worse. Look at Orks. First 7E codex, now they suck majorly. And wasn't CSM the first 6E codex?
Charax wrote: Been burned too many times by rumours of Legions, Platic Cult marines, new rules and the timeline moving forward. It's a nice thing to hope for but I'm not getting excited over new Chaos rumours anymore
In this case, this is from someone that has been shown to be pretty accurate in the past. So, while this is hardly golden, it is pretty close.
The problem is that we will probably get all this stuff shortly before the edition change and then the stuff we get will be turned to crap.
Actually, based on both this and Panda's rumours, it seems like the new chaos codex will be for 8th edition, not 7th. Though the new Thoasand Sons stuff is likely going to stay seventh, here's to hoping *8h's a bit better!
Being the first codex in an edition is worse. Look at Orks. First 7E codex, now they suck majorly. And wasn't CSM the first 6E codex?
This. Every single edition after 3rd the first codex in a new edition is invariably trash by the time the third codex rolls out. That spells doom for any hope in hell of chaos being relevant....... Yet again.
- New edition comes out
- First codex comes out, with rules suited to the meta of the previous edition because the new edition isn't widespread enough to have a functioning meta
- new edition gets played with previous edition's codices, develops own meta (MSUs, Rhino Taxis,Termicide units, whatever is suited to the way the two sets of rules interact)
- new codices for the new edition come out, making better use of the new edition's rules (like flyers with multiple weapons!) or new mechanics (formations)
- each new codex is built upon the advancements made in the previous ones (decurions, mobile fortifications)
- the first Codex ends up being the worst, because it ONLY takes into account the core rules, not the additions made afterwards, and even with the core rules it doesn't make full use of them
so yeah, the first codex in an edition always ends up sucking.
Charax wrote: Been burned too many times by rumours of Legions, Platic Cult marines, new rules and the timeline moving forward. It's a nice thing to hope for but I'm not getting excited over new Chaos rumours anymore
In this case, this is from someone that has been shown to be pretty accurate in the past. So, while this is hardly golden, it is pretty close.
The problem is that we will probably get all this stuff shortly before the edition change and then the stuff we get will be turned to crap.
Actually, based on both this and Panda's rumours, it seems like the new chaos codex will be for 8th edition, not 7th. Though the new Thoasand Sons stuff is likely going to stay seventh, here's to hoping *8h's a bit better!
Being the first codex in an edition is worse. Look at Orks. First 7E codex, now they suck majorly. And wasn't CSM the first 6E codex?
This. Every single edition after 3rd the first codex in a new edition is invariably trash by the time the third codex rolls out. That spells doom for any hope in hell of chaos being relevant....... Yet again.
Charax wrote: - New edition comes out
- First codex comes out, with rules suited to the meta of the previous edition because the new edition isn't widespread enough to have a functioning meta
- new edition gets played with previous edition's codices, develops own meta (MSUs, Rhino Taxis,Termicide units, whatever is suited to the way the two sets of rules interact)
- new codices for the new edition come out, making better use of the new edition's rules (like flyers with multiple weapons!) or new mechanics (formations)
- each new codex is built upon the advancements made in the previous ones (decurions, mobile fortifications)
- the first Codex ends up being the worst, because it ONLY takes into account the core rules, not the additions made afterwards, and even with the core rules it doesn't make full use of them
so yeah, the first codex in an edition always ends up sucking.
Good to know I am not the only one really disappointed by this turn of events. YAY! Chaos is getting updated in the worst way possible!
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: I heard that Fulgrim will have Doomrider's old rule where he has a chance to randomly disappear each turn. This is balanced by him being the cheapest of the daemon primarch's - only 666 pts.
Trust the chaos whiners to come whine even when good news comes.
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creeping-deth87 wrote: Exciting news. The end times seemed to be pretty well received by fantasy players, let's hope they do as good a job with 40K. I'm very interested to see where the studio goes with 8th edition. I'm really hoping for a grounds up rewrite.
Well it started well in first book. 2nd book was still good. Things went crazy in 3rd book and then it became clear it WAS literally end times and fantasy was going to go poof and replaced by something new.
This better be more on line of first two books and not make 40k fluff go poof and into totally new setting with only superficial touch to old one.
I really hope the new rules will be a HUGE revamp. The current edition is a complete mess of complicated and unintuitive rules. Halfway between AoS and 7th would be perfect.
I want them to stop the whole codex business. Noone is doing anything remotely similar and that's for good reasons. Paying close too 100 bucks just for the rules is nothing but an archaic ripoff.
tommse wrote: I want them to stop the whole codex business. Noone is doing anything remotely similar and that's for good reasons. Paying close too 100 bucks just for the rules is nothing but an archaic ripoff.
Especially when they say they are a model company. The fact the data sheets are available for Age of Sigmar is really how I wish it was for 40K. If I go online, I should be able to just print the data sheet out for the kits I am using. Looking at another game that used to have a huge buy-in, D&D has come to a point where one can play the game, IN ITS ENTIRETY, using free material from Wizards of the Coast. D&D Basic is freely available on their website.
I hope for the SoB players that they also get some love.
Seems like the perfect time to release some as the tide of mutant and heretic filth rises to drown the citizens of the Imperium, their faith will be needed more than ever.
Aaron Dembski-Bowden's (adding no insider info) thoughts on the rumor posted on B&C are an interesting read. Fleshing out the 2 minutes before midnight scenario like they did with the HH seems to be a more sensible approach to the rumors posted by Atia.
Neronoxx wrote: Can't wait. I've held off on a chaos army due to the plastics being older, maybe now they'll get some nice stuff?
I wouldn't expect any existing plastics to be updated. End Times is about dropping fancy new stuff, not redoing the rank and file. Expect Greater Daemons, Primarchs, daemon engines, maybe Obliterators or new Obliterator-sized superCSM.
Mymearan wrote: I really hope the new rules will be a HUGE revamp. The current edition is a complete mess of complicated and unintuitive rules. Halfway between AoS and 7th would be perfect.
Same here. 40k needs a complete re-write/reboot of the rules.
Neronoxx wrote: Can't wait. I've held off on a chaos army due to the plastics being older, maybe now they'll get some nice stuff?
I wouldn't expect any existing plastics to be updated. End Times is about dropping fancy new stuff, not redoing the rank and file. Expect Greater Daemons, Primarchs, daemon engines, maybe Obliterators or new Obliterator-sized superCSM.
They redid tau firewarriors. Albeit with new unit but you could see similar dual combo upgrade for existing stuff.
Though I'm afraid you are still right. GW isn't too keen on updating or even giving new regular sized stuff. It's bigger models all the time. They seem to assume bigger model=better quality.
The Ghostkeel wasn't too big for the Tau and obviously the FW/Breacher kit was small. So it's not outside the realm of possiblity.
Honestly? I think they have fatigue for Chaos and a lot of other factions with the small stuff. Every faction other than Tau, DE, and like one other have fairly large rosters. We have the smallest rosters so the most ways to creatively expand. Which is why you can see small stuff for us.
Chaos is kind of bloated with small stuff and many other factions. There's only so many ways you can sculpt troops without it basically just being a slight spin on an existing unit. So it kind of gets boring to create them. So they turn to the big stuff which was really lacking for most factions.
I think we'll see a return to small stuff eventually, but it will be a longer wait depending on how much your faction has of smaller things.
Or so goes my theory but trying to predict what a company does can be guesswork at the best of times and knowledge and doubly so with GW and its unpredictability.
Edit
In other words your suffering first factions syndrome. Heh. No doubt Tau, De, and Necrons will hit that point sometime in the future, but we don't get a lot of release so its far away. Chaos gets a lot and many of the other factions get tons compared to us.
Neronoxx wrote: Can't wait. I've held off on a chaos army due to the plastics being older, maybe now they'll get some nice stuff?
I wouldn't expect any existing plastics to be updated. End Times is about dropping fancy new stuff, not redoing the rank and file. Expect Greater Daemons, Primarchs, daemon engines, maybe Obliterators or new Obliterator-sized superCSM.
They redid tau firewarriors. Albeit with new unit but you could see similar dual combo upgrade for existing stuff.
Though I'm afraid you are still right. GW isn't too keen on updating or even giving new regular sized stuff. It's bigger models all the time. They seem to assume bigger model=better quality.
The vast majority of the 40K kits to come out in the past two years have been infantry...
Neronoxx wrote: Can't wait. I've held off on a chaos army due to the plastics being older, maybe now they'll get some nice stuff?
I wouldn't expect any existing plastics to be updated. End Times is about dropping fancy new stuff, not redoing the rank and file. Expect Greater Daemons, Primarchs, daemon engines, maybe Obliterators or new Obliterator-sized superCSM.
They redid tau firewarriors. Albeit with new unit but you could see similar dual combo upgrade for existing stuff.
Though I'm afraid you are still right. GW isn't too keen on updating or even giving new regular sized stuff. It's bigger models all the time. They seem to assume bigger model=better quality.
The vast majority of the 40K kits to come out in the past two years have been infantry...
Kind of a necessity when most of them belong to entirely new factions.
How many basic troops were redone for WHFB End Times?
Neronoxx wrote: Can't wait. I've held off on a chaos army due to the plastics being older, maybe now they'll get some nice stuff?
I wouldn't expect any existing plastics to be updated. End Times is about dropping fancy new stuff, not redoing the rank and file. Expect Greater Daemons, Primarchs, daemon engines, maybe Obliterators or new Obliterator-sized superCSM.
They redid tau firewarriors. Albeit with new unit but you could see similar dual combo upgrade for existing stuff.
Though I'm afraid you are still right. GW isn't too keen on updating or even giving new regular sized stuff. It's bigger models all the time. They seem to assume bigger model=better quality.
The vast majority of the 40K kits to come out in the past two years have been infantry...
Kind of a necessity when most of them belong to entirely new factions.
How many basic troops were redone for WHFB End Times?
Pretty much none.
Eldar got new models and surprise surprise no redone basic infantry that's sorely lacking. Instead new units and vechiles.
What's last resculpt of basic infantry that's not space marines? (space marines are bit of exception as they sell like hot cake so they have good reason to go for blood angels etc variants). Tau had one. Others?
New factions aren't resculpts(duh). So just because new faction gets new infantry sculpt doesn't mean chaos is likely to get new basic chaos marines(which they need).
Neronoxx wrote: Can't wait. I've held off on a chaos army due to the plastics being older, maybe now they'll get some nice stuff?
I wouldn't expect any existing plastics to be updated. End Times is about dropping fancy new stuff, not redoing the rank and file. Expect Greater Daemons, Primarchs, daemon engines, maybe Obliterators or new Obliterator-sized superCSM.
They redid tau firewarriors. Albeit with new unit but you could see similar dual combo upgrade for existing stuff.
Though I'm afraid you are still right. GW isn't too keen on updating or even giving new regular sized stuff. It's bigger models all the time. They seem to assume bigger model=better quality.
The vast majority of the 40K kits to come out in the past two years have been infantry...
Kind of a necessity when most of them belong to entirely new factions.
How many basic troops were redone for WHFB End Times?
Even if you take Harlequins and AdMech(the only two new armies) out, the majority of the kits have been infantry since 7th Edition came out (probably since 6th actually).
the_scotsman wrote: Fire Warriors, Harlequins, Plastic Wracks, new Windriders, Skiitari, SM Tacticals, BA Tacticals?
The one exception. New faction. Okay that's suitable though did they have existing plastics before? Not infantry. New faction. Last two are good examples but again space marines sell like hot cakes so less surprise they get. It's print money button. Chaos doesn't sell that much...
So again not much of good list for showing there's good chance existing infantry kits on chaos gets revamped...
New factions aren't relevant because well guess what? Those didn't exist before. Chaos space marine basic infantry kit does...So just because they released COMPLETELY NEW UNIT does not mean they will REDO EXISTING KIT.
So no. Still not holding much hope chaos kits will be getting revamps. New units yes. Especially terminator sized+, monsters and vechiles. But basic chaos marines or khorne berserkers or other old dated kits...Not holding my breath.
Neronoxx wrote: Can't wait. I've held off on a chaos army due to the plastics being older, maybe now they'll get some nice stuff?
I wouldn't expect any existing plastics to be updated. End Times is about dropping fancy new stuff, not redoing the rank and file. Expect Greater Daemons, Primarchs, daemon engines, maybe Obliterators or new Obliterator-sized superCSM.
They redid tau firewarriors. Albeit with new unit but you could see similar dual combo upgrade for existing stuff.
Though I'm afraid you are still right. GW isn't too keen on updating or even giving new regular sized stuff. It's bigger models all the time. They seem to assume bigger model=better quality.
I see 2 ways to look at this...
The troops choices are the rank and file marines and don't have much in common with the legions or veterans and such. They'll represent the renegade factions and their armor will be more in line with loyalist so the basic troops box won't be redone.
Alternatively, they're going to have to redo havocs and noise marines due to the hybrid/finecast kits. They'll likely redo berserkers and possessed as well since they're hideous. With needing to do so many 'infantry' type models with so much in common cosmetically, they may take this opportunity to make a standard tactical box that they can simply repackage with an additional frame to make havocs, berserkers, noise marines, and thousand sons, etc.
With thousand sons coming out later this year, it may give us some indication where they're taking things. If they turn out to be a combo box that can make multiple different units, or are highly ornate then we may not get a new infantry box.
The majority of major releases we have seen coming out of GW in the past few years have included new basic troops, I really don't get where you're coming from with this "nobody ever gets basic troops" kick. Are there basic troop kits that need to be updated? Sure. Eldar Guardians, CSM, arguably Orks (though with the exception of the boss nob theirs have aged relatively well), Necron Warriors, and 'Nid basic troops are all pretty old.
But looking back...
Dark Eldar line relaunch: Kabalite warriors and Wytches get new plastics
Necron Line relaunch: Immortals get new plastics
Guard Update: Stormtroopers get new plastics
Eldar Update: Windriders (they are troops) get new plastics
Tau Update: Fire Warriors get new plastics
Dark Eldar 7th update: Wracks get new plastics (finecast before)
Space Marine Update: Tacticals get new plastics
Blood Angels 7th update: Tacticals get new plastics
The only major updates we've had where troops didn't get an update to my memory are the Tyranid "chapter house wave" (with the spores, flyrant kit, and big bugaboo), the recent ork update with the big gunz meganobz and gitz, and the chaos update with the dinobots. In every other launch we've had for years, basic troops choices of at least some kind get a relaunch...which makes sense because basic troops sell quite well for GW.
According to GW itself the basic CSM kit was one of their top sellers last year along side the updated Tactical Squad box.
Admittedly that''s probably because you need it to build every infantry unit in the CSM codex that aren't Bezerkers, Terminators, Cultists or Possessed, but it selling should be enough of a reason for them to update it when they release a new codex if they use the same logic they did with the updated Tactical Squad box.
Neronoxx wrote: Can't wait. I've held off on a chaos army due to the plastics being older, maybe now they'll get some nice stuff?
I wouldn't expect any existing plastics to be updated. End Times is about dropping fancy new stuff, not redoing the rank and file. Expect Greater Daemons, Primarchs, daemon engines, maybe Obliterators or new Obliterator-sized superCSM.
the_scotsman wrote: The majority of major releases we have seen coming out of GW in the past few years have included new basic troops, I really don't get where you're coming from with this "nobody ever gets basic troops" kick.
Well, if you read what I said, you wouldn't be listing a bunch of irrelevant examples. Or you still would, I dunno. Some folks just want to be contrary. I'll give you SM Tacticals and Fire Warriors. Two examples in how many years? And neither part of a big escalating event like End Times.
Oh God please no. This sounds absolutely horrible.
I'm perfectly fine with new model releases and updates, hell, I'm fine with daemon primarchs making their way into 40k (those who are still alive, that is).
But we are talking about GW here. They won't stop there. They barely even know how to stop, especially with all the possibilities to utterly screw 40k setting and lore to make more money off those shiny primarch models.
I can only hope that AoS disaster had teached them something, so this won't be as garbadge as end of times, but there is still much more potential for it to be bad, than to be good.
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: Oh God please no. This sounds absolutely horrible.
I'm perfectly fine with new model releases and updates, hell, I'm fine with daemon primarchs making their way into 40k (those who are still alive, that is).
But we are talking about GW here. They won't stop there. They barely even know how to stop, especially with all the possibilities to utterly screw 40k setting and lore to make more money off those shiny primarch models.
I can only hope that AoS disaster had teached them something, so this won't be as garbadge as end of times, but there is still much more potential for it to be bad, than to be good.
Then again AOS might have been best thing eva that has happened to FB. Finally push players needed to take the game into their own hands rather than be at the mercy of whatever crap GW throws up.
40k could benefit from same.
Either way luckily won't affect me. I switched to 2nd ed long time ago. Short of good models won't bother me either way. I have only to gain from this. Good models gets released? I can buy them. Bad models gets released? I skip them. It's not like I need them to play since I don't have to worry about being at the top of meta. Rules gets screwed? Well good luck for GW for trying to twist me from 2nd ed. Fluff gets raped? I have all the fluff I need already in books and ebay gives me rest as I wish.
So I'm comfortably on win-win scenario. It can never be bad for me. Only neutral or various level of good.
the_scotsman wrote: The majority of major releases we have seen coming out of GW in the past few years have included new basic troops, I really don't get where you're coming from with this "nobody ever gets basic troops" kick.
Well, if you read what I said, you wouldn't be listing a bunch of irrelevant examples. Or you still would, I dunno. Some folks just want to be contrary. I'll give you SM Tacticals and Fire Warriors. Two examples in how many years? And neither part of a big escalating event like End Times.
He literally just proved you wrong. All of the units he listed were basic troops from existing faction, not new releases. GW has been updating troops, you just refuse to admit it.
the_scotsman wrote: The majority of major releases we have seen coming out of GW in the past few years have included new basic troops, I really don't get where you're coming from with this "nobody ever gets basic troops" kick.
Well, if you read what I said, you wouldn't be listing a bunch of irrelevant examples. Or you still would, I dunno. Some folks just want to be contrary. I'll give you SM Tacticals and Fire Warriors. Two examples in how many years? And neither part of a big escalating event like End Times.
He literally just proved you wrong. All of the units he listed were basic troops from existing faction, not new releases. GW has been updating troops, you just refuse to admit it.
Very scarcely. Immortals are also hardly basic troops more. Windriders ARE NOT BASIC INFANTRY! Since when is JET BIKE MOUNTED GUYS basic infantry? Try to put them on 25mm round base. Or even 32mm...That's like claiming new terminators would be resculpting basic troops!
Scions. Again elite unit. Not basic bogstandard troop. Not to mention unit that did not exists in plastic before.
Space marines sell like hotcake so that's less of surprise. Special snowflake treatment.
Only good example from that was dark eldars which was basically full range rework and even older kit than chaos.
Again bad examples for hoping basic chaos marines gets reworked. Elites, space marines, units that didn't even exists as plastic before(so hardly redoing) and then even bike unit that wasn't even part of consideration. Yes no surprise they got new unit. Not basic troop and was done like over a decade ago and was just waiting for release...So that unit was even done when the new units rather than redo's policy became effective. Gee really good indication of current policy mentioning unit that did not even fit into parameters and that was sculpted before GW shifted releases to focus on new units not existing on previous version...Yeah really good!
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: Oh God please no. This sounds absolutely horrible.
I'm perfectly fine with new model releases and updates, hell, I'm fine with daemon primarchs making their way into 40k (those who are still alive, that is).
But we are talking about GW here. They won't stop there. They barely even know how to stop, especially with all the possibilities to utterly screw 40k setting and lore to make more money off those shiny primarch models.
I can only hope that AoS disaster had teached them something, so this won't be as garbadge as end of times, but there is still much more potential for it to be bad, than to be good.
Then again AOS might have been best thing eva that has happened to FB. Finally push players needed to take the game into their own hands rather than be at the mercy of whatever crap GW throws up.
40k could benefit from same.
Either way luckily won't affect me. I switched to 2nd ed long time ago. Short of good models won't bother me either way. I have only to gain from this. Good models gets released? I can buy them. Bad models gets released? I skip them. It's not like I need them to play since I don't have to worry about being at the top of meta. Rules gets screwed? Well good luck for GW for trying to twist me from 2nd ed. Fluff gets raped? I have all the fluff I need already in books and ebay gives me rest as I wish.
So I'm comfortably on win-win scenario. It can never be bad for me. Only neutral or various level of good.
But you could literally do the same when FB was alive. There was probably a stronger psychological barrier for doing that at the time, but I'm pretty sure most of the dedicated FB fans would still take that over their game being walked into backyard and then shot in the had like GW did. I sure as hell would if I was given a similar choice about 40k.
You may not care about new rules and lore changes and I can understand that. But there are still a lot of people who do.
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: But you could literally do the same when FB was alive. There was probably a stronger psychological barrier for doing that at the time, but I'm pretty sure most of the dedicated FB fans would still take that over their game being walked into backyard and then shot in the had like GW did. I sure as hell would if I was given a similar choice about 40k.
You may not care about new rules and lore changes and I can understand that. But there are still a lot of people who do.
Except players have this strong disinclination of going against official stance. Even when said official stance gives out trashy rules and stupid fluff. So until GW killed FB off no the player base wasn't going to take matters to their own hands.
But GW killed, players took matters to own hand and FB rules have never been better as a result. Yeah there's also that crappy AOS but in a world where crappy games are countless what's one more. With luck you can still get models if you like WoW style in your models(I don't but others do so for them it's source of good models in better rules).
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: But you could literally do the same when FB was alive. There was probably a stronger psychological barrier for doing that at the time, but I'm pretty sure most of the dedicated FB fans would still take that over their game being walked into backyard and then shot in the had like GW did. I sure as hell would if I was given a similar choice about 40k.
You may not care about new rules and lore changes and I can understand that. But there are still a lot of people who do.
Except players have this strong disinclination of going against official stance. Even when said official stance gives out trashy rules and stupid fluff. So until GW killed FB off no the player base wasn't going to take matters to their own hands.
But GW killed, players took matters to own hand and FB rules have never been better as a result. Yeah there's also that crappy AOS but in a world where crappy games are countless what's one more. With luck you can still get models if you like WoW style in your models(I don't but others do so for them it's source of good models in better rules).
I see what you mean, but I still think it's more on the side of fixing a bad haircut with a decapitation. Even if it was a really, really awful haircut.
There are possibilities to fix maybe not all, but a lot of stuff with house rules, unofficial, but widely accepted FAQs, etc. without, you know, your beloved game being murdered and it's setting being taken huge dump on.
This is both off topic and pointless, and I'm not interested in continuing. People have an opinion and they will place the goalposts wherever they need to be to make that opinion correct - it seems that you've put yours on "anything that didn't exist in 2nd edition doesn't count" so that's your perogative.
I thought when going into this that the premise was "GW only produces big/monster kits" and I thought the best way to evaluate the claim was to look at the percentage of kits that have been released that were large/monsters vs the percentage of kits that were troops (handily designated by the "troop" category in the codex).
My mistake. Please by all means continue to do your thing however you want.
40 has no reason to go forwards when it has 9000 years backwards to address. 40k has a small section at the HH, and most of the stuff at the end of M41, and nothing in the middle. GW have realised that with the success of FWHH series and Calth, and with box games being a hit, they now have 2 huge cash cows.
Fantasy didn't have that, because we knew the beginning of that story via Time of Legends novels, and the whole background only being a few centuries. They had to push on and pushed too far and now they won't do that with 40k, because AoS was ripped by the customer and community upon release.
the_scotsman wrote: The majority of major releases we have seen coming out of GW in the past few years have included new basic troops, I really don't get where you're coming from with this "nobody ever gets basic troops" kick.
Well, if you read what I said, you wouldn't be listing a bunch of irrelevant examples. Or you still would, I dunno. Some folks just want to be contrary. I'll give you SM Tacticals and Fire Warriors. Two examples in how many years? And neither part of a big escalating event like End Times.
He literally just proved you wrong. All of the units he listed were basic troops from existing faction, not new releases. GW has been updating troops, you just refuse to admit it.
And you refuse to read what I really wrote. Not hard to prove someone wrong in that case. I said existing plastic kits do not get updated and half his list was metal/finecast going plastic, and even so he had to go back 6 years to find a total 8 examples, of them 2 actually relevant to what I said, and I admitted those freely. The second part of my argument was that I would not expect basic troop kits in an End Times type event, based on WHFB releases, which were all big, flashy kits, which ya'all willfully ignored so you could "prove me wrong" without actually addressing my arguments.
Vulcan wrote: Looks like the Age of Sigmarines is coming to 40K...
Not gonna happen. 40k is selling well enough that there's no need for a massive shift like that, plus the rumour says 'They want to get the same excitement as the community had during the End Times - without actually going as far as Age of Sigmar did.'
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: There are possibilities to fix maybe not all, but a lot of stuff with house rules, unofficial, but widely accepted FAQs, etc. without, you know, your beloved game being murdered and it's setting being taken huge dump on.
There are possibilities but good luck trying to convince people take them. Go on. Try to convince 40k players to take game to their own hands and fix it from the ground up like fantasy players did. I'm waiting. But not holding my breath while doing it! I'm not suicidial
There are individuals here and there who might be doing but wide movement? Nope that's not going to happen easily. And prerequisite is pretty much official support going poof.
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Deadshot wrote: 40 has no reason to go forwards when it has 9000 years backwards to address. 40k has a small section at the HH, and most of the stuff at the end of M41, and nothing in the middle. GW have realised that with the success of FWHH series and Calth, and with box games being a hit, they now have 2 huge cash cows.
Fantasy didn't have that, because we knew the beginning of that story via Time of Legends novels, and the whole background only being a few centuries. They had to push on and pushed too far and now they won't do that with 40k, because AoS was ripped by the customer and community upon release.
FB had thousands of years to cover as well so...
And btwAOS result won't be really affecting new 40k THAT much. If it's coming first half of next year book etc are pretty much done by now. Design started long time ago.
the_scotsman wrote: This is both off topic and pointless, and I'm not interested in continuing. People have an opinion and they will place the goalposts wherever they need to be to make that opinion correct - it seems that you've put yours on "anything that didn't exist in 2nd edition doesn't count" so that's your perogative.
I thought when going into this that the premise was "GW only produces big/monster kits" and I thought the best way to evaluate the claim was to look at the percentage of kits that have been released that were large/monsters vs the percentage of kits that were troops (handily designated by the "troop" category in the codex).
My mistake. Please by all means continue to do your thing however you want.
If you are looking at possibility of chaos getting revamp of existing plastic basic troops isn't relevant comparison to see how much of THAT they have done? Yes chaos will be getting new models. Nobody has ever denied that. But if they haven't been doing much in form of revamping existing plastic kits of basic troops recently why you think chances of them doing that is high for chaos?
They haven't even released plastic aspect warriors and THAT would be plastic kit that has never existed so even higher priority than revamping existing plastic kits. Not to mention release eldar players have been waiting anxiously.
They had the jetbikes done decade ago. They even postponed them in favour of plastic wraithguards that also gave up brand new unit.
Revamping existing plastic kits has been on very low priority. Ask any high elf player how long they had been waiting to have their core troops get new plastics! (that never materialized).
And you know what? This actually has business sense. Revamps would need to be very good to move people to replace existing models with new ones(especially with GW prices). You already have that unit! Why buy them again? New unit sells for both old and new players...
tneva82 wrote: Try to convince 40k players to take game to their own hands and fix it from the ground up like fantasy players did. I'm waiting.
40K players have been 'fixing' the game for decades.
Oh really? I have yet to see any tournament that doesn't use the official rules.
What do you call FAQs like ITC, ETC, and all of the others? They're attempts to fix the game.
Band-aid. What FB players did as well. But that won't fix them at the core and there's limit how far they are willing to go. Have they redone points from the ground up? Changed rules completely to fix balance issues?
Small band-aids aren't enough. Wasn't in FB, even less for 40k.
To all the Chaos-haters who think we don't deserve a proper model line overhaul, keep in mind a few cold, hard facts;
1. None of our basic kits prior to the newest stuff, (Raptors, Fiends, Hellbrute, Burny-Chicken), come with more than half their basic upgrade options.
The basic Marine kit is the only thing that's remotely close to a 'complete' kit, yet it is still missing a decent amount of basic wargear, and due to its extreme age, is also highly prone to miscasts & badly molded detailing. (despite being one of the least 'detailed' kits still on the shelf!)
The Terminator kit? I challenge anyone to find another kit outside of the even more lamentable Khorne Berserkers that's missing as many basic options as our dumpster fire of a Termie kit! Keep in mind, you can't even build 5 basic grunts from the kit because shockingly, you only get 3x Combi-bolters + Power weapon!! (and of that, 2 are axes and one is a maul!)
That kit is literal garbage in plastic form... Beyond the fact you can't even build anything remotely close to a functional squad, it's still missing even a single option for the Combi-Plasma, Power sword & Lightning claw (god forbid getting a pair of 'em!)
Our kits are from a different era altogether, and there is now so much wasted, empty space on our sprues, unlike the newer kits of the past 6-7 years which are literally packed to the point of bursting with wargear options & additional 'extras' from ammo pouches, grenades, purity seals, gubbins, etc...
Imagine for a second a Space Marine Tactical Squad that was still stuck using just a missile launcher/flamer/melta/plasma gun + power sword/fist/plasma pistol - and then realising that is the single most complete kit from which 80%+ of your various infantry squads are then built from.
That is the problem with keeping the current Chaos kits; they're missing too many basic options, while everyone else gets access to their stuff.
2. Visually, the entire Chaos line is a complete and utter mess...
We have almost ALL of our characters + Berserkers who are still sporting the 90's "death metal & hamfists the size of their heads" goofiness. Meanwhile half our line is early to mid 2000's of being "Loyalists but with SPIKES!" styles, and then the newer Dark Vengeance era stuff with the super mutated (mono-pose) Chosen & Raptors.
There is absolutely NOTHING that visually ties the army together. It's just a giant conglomeration of nearly three decades of radically differing styles all lumped together, leaving the Chaos line with no identity or theme beyond, "lolz!randumb!"
Chaos Marines really need & at this point are well deserving of the Dark Eldar treatment...
It's only right that they finally get such a total re-boot, considering the sheer importance of Chaos to entire story of 40k as a whole!
Most regular posters will be aware of your one note posts ranting about the state of Chaos, but where ITT are people saying anything to the contrary that they're at worst neutral about them getting updated?
tneva82 wrote: Try to convince 40k players to take game to their own hands and fix it from the ground up like fantasy players did. I'm waiting.
40K players have been 'fixing' the game for decades.
Oh really? I have yet to see any tournament that doesn't use the official rules.
What do you call FAQs like ITC, ETC, and all of the others? They're attempts to fix the game.
Band-aid. What FB players did as well. But that won't fix them at the core and there's limit how far they are willing to go. Have they redone points from the ground up? Changed rules completely to fix balance issues?
Small band-aids aren't enough. Wasn't in FB, even less for 40k.
I was never into FB, but 40k's mechanics and principles are not inherently flawed. There is no instance anywhere in the rules for anything that justifies shutting down a whole game and ceasing all support for it so a bunch of folks could have easier time having their way with the rules, when most of the things can be tweaked inside the borders of those mechanics via house rules and FAQs.
Besides, I doubt that those rule changes you are talking about are as widely and unquestionably accepted as official rules for FB. Same goes for 40k.
Experiment 626 wrote: The people who think that ancient kits full of missing options isn't an issue in any way shape or form maybe?!
Apparently we're not allowed to have basic toys because... "Chaos!"
And who's been saying chaos doesn't deserve? I know for sure I haven't(would love some to build up my 2nd ed chaos force). Just that they aren't likely since revamp of existing kits hasn't been that high priority...So I'm expecting more of daemon primarch, new thousand sons, maybe some new tzeentch themed elite unit...That sort of stuff.
I'm not expecting revamped basic chaos troops. Would be happily surprised and chance is >0% but it's hardly a done deal.
Plenty of other models have been deserving new models for ages and haven't received. Plastic aspect warriors, ork wartrakk(which is older than chaos line and 2nd ed orks simply don't fit with modern orks at all).
Tons of models that could benefit from revamp. But do they get them el pronto? Nope. Because GW prefers to focus most of design strength to NEW units that are easier to market than rehash of old. So while they might come one day it's not quickly.
tneva82 wrote: Try to convince 40k players to take game to their own hands and fix it from the ground up like fantasy players did. I'm waiting.
40K players have been 'fixing' the game for decades.
No, never.
They made their own FAQ's to get clear rules, but a massive rule change to correct mistakes from the official ones never happened no matter how bad the rules were
I welcome a re-vamp of 40k. The rules are darn near impenetrable for new players. Some simplification and streamlining would be a good thing, as far as I'm concerned.
Experiment 626 wrote: The people who think that ancient kits full of missing options isn't an issue in any way shape or form maybe?!
Apparently we're not allowed to have basic toys because... "Chaos!"
Pretty sure nobody here said that.
I was going to say, is there seriously anybody here that doesn't think the basic Chaos Marine kit needs an update? I think the confusion is because of the long string of comments about IF there will be a new kit. There is on question a new kit is needed, its more of a question of GW's intent.
There are some for old 3rd edition kits still being used that are good kits that don't need replacing. The old Ork Boyz are still great models, and really, what else more can be done with the Eldar guardian and Nid gaunt kits to make them much better? The same cannot be said for the Chaos Marine plastics. Not only are the wargear options not up to snuff, the design is dramatically out of sync with the rest of the army.
So much salt, so much... What CSM need (modelwise) are upgrade kits, like the Space marines got. One for Chosen, one for Havocs. And some legion specific ones. But I don't think we'll see Chaos soon.
I don't think anyone can argue the 40K ruleset as-is is healthy in any way, it's a lumbering behemoth built on an 18 year old corpse, there's a solid argument to be made for a reboot of the mechanics to something, if not simpler, then at least fundamentally different.
The problem with this (the same problem 2nd and 3rd edition faced) is that a fundamental shakeup of the rules requires that you immediately release rules (no matter how basic) for every single force you support, and all your players gop from massive customisable and varied forces to a handful of generic statlines for an unfamiliar system. It's a pain in the ass, as AoS players have discovered
There's no easy solution - too few changes and it feels like yet another patch on the bloated decades-old monstrosity, too few and you risk alienating a lot of people (and unlike WFB, GW seem to think 40K generates enough sales where that may actually be a concern
My take? a revamp might be fun, just not to quite the extent of AoS
So, just as a casual observance, does this mean we will finally rehit the attacks on the Blackstone fortresses, Eldrad's death, the 13th crusade finally succeeding, and the after effects of what I remember as incredibly inaccurate results of a world challenge in which chaos won?
Experiment 626 wrote: To all the Chaos-haters who think we don't deserve a proper model line overhaul, keep in mind a few cold, hard facts;
1. None of our basic kits prior to the newest stuff, (Raptors, Fiends, Hellbrute, Burny-Chicken), come with more than half their basic upgrade options.
The basic Marine kit is the only thing that's remotely close to a 'complete' kit, yet it is still missing a decent amount of basic wargear, and due to its extreme age, is also highly prone to miscasts & badly molded detailing. (despite being one of the least 'detailed' kits still on the shelf!)
The Terminator kit? I challenge anyone to find another kit outside of the even more lamentable Khorne Berserkers that's missing as many basic options as our dumpster fire of a Termie kit! Keep in mind, you can't even build 5 basic grunts from the kit because shockingly, you only get 3x Combi-bolters + Power weapon!! (and of that, 2 are axes and one is a maul!)
That kit is literal garbage in plastic form... Beyond the fact you can't even build anything remotely close to a functional squad, it's still missing even a single option for the Combi-Plasma, Power sword & Lightning claw (god forbid getting a pair of 'em!)
Our kits are from a different era altogether, and there is now so much wasted, empty space on our sprues, unlike the newer kits of the past 6-7 years which are literally packed to the point of bursting with wargear options & additional 'extras' from ammo pouches, grenades, purity seals, gubbins, etc...
Imagine for a second a Space Marine Tactical Squad that was still stuck using just a missile launcher/flamer/melta/plasma gun + power sword/fist/plasma pistol - and then realising that is the single most complete kit from which 80%+ of your various infantry squads are then built from.
That is the problem with keeping the current Chaos kits; they're missing too many basic options, while everyone else gets access to their stuff.
Come back when you have to buy two boxes(Cadian Shock Troop/Catachan Jungle Fighter main box and either a Heavy Weapon Squad box or a Heavy Weapon Team[Catachans can only get the Heavy Weapon Squad box now]) and a blister(Cadian Melta or Plasma Guns are sold in a blister, same with Sniper Rifles) or a third box(Cadian or Catachan Command Squad) to field one squad with the possibility of all its options(each box only includes a minute amount of the options; Cadian box comes with Flamer and Grenade Launchers only).
And that's if you run Veterans rather than Platoons.
Experiment 626 wrote: Visually, the entire Chaos line is a complete and utter mess...
One could say it's "chaotic."
I'm sorry, but does anyone else see the irony in arguing for a unified look for forces of Chaos ?
---
The whole point of the 40K fluff is that the universe is on the brink of destruction, and has been for 10,000 years, but never quite gets there.
The only thing they could do to shake it up without utterly destroying it is awaken the Emperor. Then the IoM would be free to fight each other over who is the heretic.
The idea was brought up in the old Inquisitor game that there are 3 outcomes.
If the Emperor awakens, some will think it's a work of the Chaos gods and divide the IoM into civil war.
If the Emperor dies, Warp Navigation will become difficult, the church will collapse, some will think it's a work of the Heretics and divide the IoM into civil war.
If the Emperor dies and instantly reincarnates, as some think he will do, some will think he's an imposter and it's a work of the Chaos gods and divide the IoM into civil war.
---
As already mentioned, pushing 30K is also viable route. New books, new models, same setting, doesn't break the 40K universe.
---
I'd absolutely poop my pants is Demiurg(Squats) reemerged.
--
There hasn't been anything other than clickbait and wishful thinking for the release of 8th Edition 40K, that I have seen.
With the work on the FAQ's the timing seems dubious. An actual 8th edition, and not an updated 7th edition, rulebook would require actual rules changes.
Funny thing is GW want to move the story forward -by bringing back primarchs, wulfen, and just go deeper in to the old grudges of 30k -that happen to be a highly popular setting.
Perhaps we will se some of the epic events of the heresy mirrored, just with the AoS promise of gaming events/tournaments that actually have consequense for the course of the end times.
Hey, It would actually be kind of cool if we the players actually could bring down the end times on the game. (spoiler: Tau is the new masters of the universe
If games workshop do this, they are playing with fire.
No not fire, thermite.
40K is want is keeping them afloat as a company. If they screw this up they will be finished. And given how they handled WHFB - AoS I assume they will screw this up.
Sorting out the rules, cutting out the bloat, these things are needed. F'ing about with the fluff, sounds like suicide.
Tamereth wrote: If games workshop do this, they are playing with fire.
No not fire, thermite.
40K is want is keeping them afloat as a company. If they screw this up they will be finished. And given how they handled WHFB - AoS I assume they will screw this up.
Sorting out the rules, cutting out the bloat, these things are needed. F'ing about with the fluff, sounds like suicide.
Think it's good moving the story on but sometimes its best to leave certain things in the long established history of the setting in the past and come up with new original ideas and characters. Messing about with the Primachs is the risky part of the fluff that I would be worried about.
Doing a 40K End Times would be cool, as long as it doesn't actually end like Fantasy. Building up to a cleaned-up (read slimmed down) 8th ed would be ok.
I just don't want to relearn a whole new ruleset and have to revamp all my army lists....again.
Tamereth wrote: If games workshop do this, they are playing with fire.
No not fire, thermite.
40K is want is keeping them afloat as a company. If they screw this up they will be finished. And given how they handled WHFB - AoS I assume they will screw this up.
Sorting out the rules, cutting out the bloat, these things are needed. F'ing about with the fluff, sounds like suicide.
Think it's good moving the story on but sometimes its best to leave certain things in the long established history of the setting in the past and come up with new original ideas and characters. Messing about with the Primachs is the risky part of the fluff that I would be worried about.
Forcing CSM Daemon Primarchs into 40K would exacerbate all of the current problems. Apocalypse has already crept into standard 40k way too much and there's so much rules bloat for everything and unbalanced units that throwing Daemon Primarchs into the mix would be awful. I'm the models would look great but what kind of points value would you need to play at to include Daemon Primarchs? If they have stats that reflect the fluff they'll cost a ton of points and now you're playing huge games with hundreds of models in a system with rules bloat that drags out gameplay even more. I don't see how putting more new and powerful units into 40k fixes anything.
Every rumor I've seen in past 9 months says move timeline forward but not destroy setting. Even wity lessons learned from AoS and rules simplifying I just can't see the exact AoS steps being taken.
Tamereth wrote: If games workshop do this, they are playing with fire.
No not fire, thermite.
40K is want is keeping them afloat as a company. If they screw this up they will be finished. And given how they handled WHFB - AoS I assume they will screw this up.
Sorting out the rules, cutting out the bloat, these things are needed. F'ing about with the fluff, sounds like suicide.
Think it's good moving the story on but sometimes its best to leave certain things in the long established history of the setting in the past and come up with new original ideas and characters. Messing about with the Primachs is the risky part of the fluff that I would be worried about.
Forcing CSM Daemon Primarchs into 40K would exacerbate all of the current problems. Apocalypse has already crept into standard 40k way too much and there's so much rules bloat for everything and unbalanced units that throwing Daemon Primarchs into the mix would be awful. I'm the models would look great but what kind of points value would you need to play at to include Daemon Primarchs? If they have stats that reflect the fluff they'll cost a ton of points and now you're playing huge games with hundreds of models in a system with rules bloat that drags out gameplay even more. I don't see how putting more new and powerful units into 40k fixes anything.
I suppose I was getting more at the risk to the fluff that has been built up over the past few decades but yeah you are right about the effect it will also have on the rules; irrespective of this I can see GW viewing the release of big epic Primarch models as fitting in with its current trend of bigger is better.Rules and Fluff wise there is a lot to be concerned about but I would still love to see what kind of models they put out all the same
Well, it'll be interesting to see how this shapes up. I'm waiting on 8th to determine if the future of 40k is something I want to continue to invest in (I just buy models I like from time to time). Honestly, the lore is an insignificant issue compared to what they do with the gameplay itself. If the game doesn't get any cheaper to play/introduce people into and/or if the bloat isn't managed, I think I'll just leave it behind for some other options.
A huge Chaos incursion could allow many reboot/soft reboot options. Anything from warping reality and bringing back missing races, like a comics crisis, to 'lost' personalities and units returning, to entirely new factions. Could be a smart move! Suspect crowd-pleasing resculpts of classic units plus some new showstoppers, if current trends are anything to go by.
lord_blackfang wrote: But the grognards rage every time something new is introduced and goo their pants every time a concept from Rogue Trader is brought back.
That's because one of these things is much cooler than the other:
There's a way to introduce new things, but they need to be well done and fit in with the 30-odd years of the established fluff and background. I don't think people have so much a dislike of "new" stuff, just that it needs to be done well, and not badly.
Am I the only one that thinks this will be a ten year project at least. A major mistake that Gw made with the warhammer end times was finishing it too quickly. I know a lot of people here hated it but it was a pretty big finincial success for gw. They could easily have made double the number of books.
With 40k I could easily see a 20 book series with 2 released each year. You could argue that this has already started with fenris and baal.
My hope that is that they will do at least two global campaigns and lean hard into the results. Meanwhile they can bring 30k more into the mainstream, perhaps expanding it beyond the end of the Heresy. I could easily see it being the leading product in ten years time.
Gw is a very different company now from a year ago. It is exciting to see where things will go.
JohnnyHell wrote: If multiple posters could stop referring to fluff as being raped that would be magical. Rape isn't funny or a clever comparison for the story that sells plastic figures being altered a bit and you not being happy about it. Just stop. Thanks. I've reported a few posts on a bunch of threads lately as it isn't acceptable, but let's save the mods work editing your inappropriate posts, yeah, and just not do it?
1. Internet Hyperbole is a thing. Everything is always the worst thing ever in the history of ever, even when it isn't (hell, especially when it isn't). You should know this by now.
2. Etymologically speaking, it's a perfectly fine word to describe the sundering of something else.
Can we please try to be a little bit better than 'fine' Using that word may be fine. Not using it is better.
Chikout wrote: Am I the only one that thinks this will be a ten year project at least. A major mistake that Gw made with the warhammer end times was finishing it too quickly. I know a lot of people here hated it but it was a pretty big finincial success for gw. They could easily have made double the number of books.
With 40k I could easily see a 20 book series with 2 released each year. You could argue that this has already started with fenris and baal.
My hope that is that they will do at least two global campaigns and lean hard into the results. Meanwhile they can bring 30k more into the mainstream, perhaps expanding it beyond the end of the Heresy. I could easily see it being the leading product in ten years time.
Gw is a very different company now from a year ago. It is exciting to see where things will go.
And Damocles even though most people don't like Tau it had a lot of stuff changing in it. Well more like a setup.
The demon primarchs will no doubt be the CSM equivilent to knights, wraithknight, etc. They'll have some fluff justification for them having their stats being 'mortal tier'.
If GW did global campaigns again, an easy way to guarantee you get the results you want is to write the rules in such a way that who you want to win can't lose. If all the opposing forces are mediocre while your protagonists are far more powerful you don't have to worry about major upsets.
Sinful Hero wrote: If GW did global campaigns again, an easy way to guarantee you get the results you want is to write the rules in such a way that who you want to win can't lose. If all the opposing forces are mediocre while your protagonists are far more powerful you don't have to worry about major upsets.
You mean like the Eye of Terror Campaign? Or the Armageddon Campaign?
Sinful Hero wrote: If GW did global campaigns again, an easy way to guarantee you get the results you want is to write the rules in such a way that who you want to win can't lose. If all the opposing forces are mediocre while your protagonists are far more powerful you don't have to worry about major upsets.
You mean like the Eye of Terror Campaign? Or the Armageddon Campaign?
I was trying to make the point you could prevent Chaos or Tyranids from "winning" if on a whole they're given less than stellar rules.
Or did Chaos win back then on the back of a dud codex?
I think my only concern with Daemon Primarchs is making sure they're priced properly and line up with FW's power level for primarchs... that is to say they should obviously be stronger and more expensive, but I half expect GW to cost them cheaper than their unascended versions just to sell more.
Sinful Hero wrote: I was trying to make the point you could prevent Chaos or Tyranids from "winning" if on a whole they're given less than stellar rules.
Or did Chaos win back then on the back of a dud codex?
Ah, I see what you mean.
And no, Chaos had the 3.5 'Dex then and the Eye of Terror Codex (Lost & The Damned armies were amazing!).
aka_mythos wrote: I think my only concern with Daemon Primarchs is making sure they're priced properly and line up with FW's power level for primarchs... that is to say they should obviously be stronger and more expensive, but I half expect GW to cost them cheaper than their unascended versions just to sell more.
And they'll be T6 as well, 'cause you just know they will be. 'Cept Mortarion. He'll be T7, and he'll have an extra wound.
If they do another campaign they need to make the results matter. The best way would be to plan at least two stories based on the results. The imperium resurgent with primarchs at the fore, or the imperium facing it Darkest hour both have the potential for some compelling future campaigns. They have gone a long way to ressurecting aos by heavily involving the community. 40k would benefit from the same attention.
Chikout wrote: If they do another campaign they need to make the results matter. The best way would be to plan at least two stories based on the results. The imperium resurgent with primarchs at the fore, or the imperium facing it Darkest hour both have the potential for some compelling future campaigns. They have gone a long way to ressurecting aos by heavily involving the community. 40k would benefit from the same attention.
The darkest future of all... IoM, Tau, and Craftworld Eldar all have to ally as a faction. Eugh.
Badab War and Reign of Blood are the closest it came to since the Heresy but the Imperium hasn't been forced into basically pre-Crusade era levels of separation yet.
"Beast Arises" is a major plot development happening right now.
You're welcome to say that it "never got rules for the game"(which is absolutely true) but it is also a thing going on right now.
It is seemingly laying the groundwork for the return of some Loyalist Primarchs(Vulkan states in "The Hunt for Vulkan" that he could not return yet to the Imperium as "this was not the war he was intended to return for"--and he tells one of the Last Wall that 'they are true Sons of Dorn and that when he next sees Dorn, he shall speak of his sons with pride') and possibly laying the groundwork for more Ork stuff later on.
Ok, how about this. Earth falls. The imperium is recentered in Ultramar. The major campaign is to take back Earth. As chaos comes close to victory, the tyranids invade the eye of terror. Etc. Etc. There are a hundred different ways they could take things that have not been done before.
adamsouza wrote: There hasn't been anything other than clickbait and wishful thinking for the release of 8th Edition 40K, that I have seen.
With the work on the FAQ's the timing seems dubious. An actual 8th edition, and not an updated 7th edition, rulebook would require actual rules changes.
This rumour comes from very reliable source though.
And what's so dubious about timing? FAQ's this year, 8th ed next year. GW has known history of releasing army books one year before new edition. Even when said edition INVALIDATED said army book! Nevermind End Times books which weren't even valid for more than few months for some. Short of you already having already huge collection you might not even have been able to build and paint force to take advantage of new rules before books got replaced by new game...
Compared to books that cost to produce free faq's invalidated ain't nothing.
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Prestor Jon wrote: Forcing CSM Daemon Primarchs into 40K would exacerbate all of the current problems. Apocalypse has already crept into standard 40k way too much and there's so much rules bloat for everything and unbalanced units that throwing Daemon Primarchs into the mix would be awful. I'm the models would look great but what kind of points value would you need to play at to include Daemon Primarchs? If they have stats that reflect the fluff they'll cost a ton of points and now you're playing huge games with hundreds of models in a system with rules bloat that drags out gameplay even more. I don't see how putting more new and powerful units into 40k fixes anything.
Well even space marines are seriously underpowered to fluff(you should be looking more like S6, T6, 2+ rerollable save calibre) so who says they have to be as good as in fluff?
In 30k primarches are hardly the "I'm gonna destroy titan alone" guys they are in fluff. No reason to expect suddenly new ones would match fluff when they take liberties with fluff EVERYWHERE.
aka_mythos wrote: I think my only concern with Daemon Primarchs is making sure they're priced properly and line up with FW's power level for primarchs... that is to say they should obviously be stronger and more expensive, but I half expect GW to cost them cheaper than their unascended versions just to sell more.
And they'll be T6 as well, 'cause you just know they will be. 'Cept Mortarion. He'll be T7, and he'll have an extra wound.
No eternal warrior either.
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Kanluwen wrote: The Imperium has been "facing its darkest hour" for almost 30 years now.
It'd be nice to have the Imperium on the upswing.
Just seeing the narrative advance would be nice. It sounds like we're heading towards Daemon Primarchs return and then some loyalist Primarchs will return to match them. Just the question of how the Imperium will respond to that is exciting enough even if it doesn't go further than a stalemate.
I think it's pretty clear and has been since Baal and Fenris that we are moving toward an End Times. However, GW just wont take it that final step this time.
This 'rumor' isn't really anything new that wasn't already surmised by previous rumors. More just a confirmation of what we thought.
Also GW probably will drag this out longer than the WFB End Times. GW is clearly taking their time.
We won't see the fall of Terra or the Death of the Emperor. We will see the return of some primarchs (demon and otherwise). It will probably end with Ababadaddaon in in the Sol system headed for earth and Rowboat and Vulkan on the stairs of the Palace waiting. And the Lion skewering mutant Russ on his blade (one can only hope).
Remeber, Atia said 'one minute to midnight'. That's 00:59. Not 00:01.
Badab War and Reign of Blood are the closest it came to since the Heresy but the Imperium hasn't been forced into basically pre-Crusade era levels of separation yet.
Wasn't there that event with Cacodominus in M34 that heavily distorted the light of Astronomican making warp travel impossible for most of the imperium?
As I was told (though it might be nonsense), the earliest sessions to start work on a new edition led to the decision to not update (for the most part) the Tau Codex and no longer re-do older books. Apparently they actually had more thorough rule-changes for the Tau, scrapped them, but still printed loads of not-new Tau Codex books because the printers were already booked, leading to the hybrid old/new Codex that is the Tau book.
But they are definitely working on a new edition. It just won't be released in 2016, not least (as I heard) because they want to move the story and need time for that.
Sad Panda wrote: As I was told (though it might be nonsense), the earliest sessions to start work on a new edition led to the decision to not update (for the most part) the Tau Codex and no longer re-do older books.
Does that imply the mechanical changes to 8th edition are planned to be significant enough to make the effort of creating more involved rules for 7th a waste of time and resources? Or is that wishful thinking on my part?
Sad Panda wrote: As I was told (though it might be nonsense), the earliest sessions to start work on a new edition led to the decision to not update (for the most part) the Tau Codex and no longer re-do older books. Apparently they actually had more thorough rule-changes for the Tau, scrapped them, but still printed loads of not-new Tau Codex books because the printers were already booked, leading to the hybrid old/new Codex that is the Tau book.
But they are definitely working on a new edition. It just won't be released in 2016, not least (as I heard) because they want to move the story and need time for that.
So they put on hold all non-7th edition codex while working on new rulebook?
Or it's a simultaneous work?
And I just wonder - was there any changes in game design department after Tim Kirby left?
Galef wrote: Doing a 40K End Times would be cool, as long as it doesn't actually end like Fantasy. Building up to a cleaned-up (read slimmed down) 8th ed would be ok.
I just don't want to relearn a whole new ruleset and have to revamp all my army lists....again.
To be fair though, do you want GW to disappear? I mean put yourself in there shoes. How will you make money if you keep everything the same? something has to change. So a new rule set keeps GW in business. After all we want to keep playing right? Yes it sucks learning a new rule set. Yes it sucks revamping the armies. For a lot of people making new armies is half the fun. Sometimes we have to suffer a bit or accept the minor annoyances to be able to keep playing. The other end is keeping everything the same, means no games to play in the short future.
Neronoxx wrote: Saw this on Lady Atia's blog.
"Howdy Guys and Girls
A white raven appeared today and brought me a message - winter is coming ...
Warhammer 40k turns 30 years old next year. The new edition is due. The clock will be taken from 5 minutes to midnight to 1 minute to midnight with the return of the Daemonprimarchs - or will they return alone? This is the theme of the new setting - think along the lines of 13th Black Crusade - but this time, it's serious. They want to get the same excitement as the community had during the End Times - without actually going as far as Age of Sigmar did.
Chaos fans - this is your hour. Stop beeing grudgy, there will be lots of love for all of you - renegades, former legions, daemon lovers.
The lore already start to unfold, with the Shield of Baal and Warzone Fenris - so we are already within the action. As usual, this is a bit of an early talk, so stay cool and take it with a tiny bit of salt.
regards,
Lady Atia"
Can't wait. I've held off on a chaos army due to the plastics being older, maybe now they'll get some nice stuff?
Will that Demon Primarch one of the two Primarchs of the two Legions declared 'In Damnio Memoria'?
VeteranNoob wrote: Even wity lessons learned from AoS and rules simplifying I just can't see the exact AoS steps being taken.
I can. Free data slate rules for all minis. Simplified rules. That doesn't mean AoS rules. Have a few pages on how to move, shoot, assault and psychic power phase or how it will work now. All individual or special rules be printed on a card or be on the data slates of the minis themselves as to not convolute the rule book.
While AoS only has 4 pages, really 2 pages of rules, there is so many special rules on the war scrolls, that AoS is really not a simple came but a simpler game now, with a lot of complexity. It works because you don't feel like you have to remember the entire rule book and when you need to find that rule, it's on the war scroll right in front of you and don't have to flip through book and waste time arguing how something works.
This can all be done without destroying the setting like what happened to Fantasy. I am sure Mr Roundtree will not let this happen. So you can say LESSON LEARNED.
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Sinful Hero wrote: [
I was trying to make the point you could prevent Chaos or Tyranids from "winning" if on a whole they're given less than stellar rules.
They don't have stellar rules now. I am not sure what you are trying to say. Please explain.
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Kanluwen wrote: The Imperium has been "facing its darkest hour" for almost 30 years now.
It'd be nice to have the Imperium on the upswing.
Be careful what you wish for. Fluff doesn't exactly go turn into power units in codices. Look at the rumours for Nids. Since they didn't have allies they were suppose to be strong codex so they didn't have to use allies. We all seen how that turned out. Just because the rumour is Chaos Space Marines will be the big focus and be all powerful in the fluff doesn't mean they will be top tier army in codex power. Yes they might get a new codex, but still be like it is or just better but not top tier. So going by that yes the Imperium might be on the upswing, but then the new codex might be weaker even though the fluff shows them to be powerful.
I don't know, it just seems a lot of times what is in the fluff or stories, is the exact opposite how the codex works for them.
Galef wrote: Doing a 40K End Times would be cool, as long as it doesn't actually end like Fantasy. Building up to a cleaned-up (read slimmed down) 8th ed would be ok.
I just don't want to relearn a whole new ruleset and have to revamp all my army lists....again.
To be fair though, do you want GW to disappear? I mean put yourself in there shoes. How will you make money if you keep everything the same? something has to change. So a new rule set keeps GW in business. After all we want to keep playing right? Yes it sucks learning a new rule set. Yes it sucks revamping the armies. For a lot of people making new armies is half the fun. Sometimes we have to suffer a bit or accept the minor annoyances to be able to keep playing. The other end is keeping everything the same, means no games to play in the short future.
Funny how other games manage to survive without redoing everything all the time though.
And besides GW has been insisten on them being MODEL company with MODELS being their main focus. That means they could release new models without redoing fluff and rules constantly. Indeed this would allow them more time to focus on models rather than spend some of time on rules as well.
Will that Demon Primarch one of the two Primarchs of the two Legions declared 'In Damnio Memoria'?
Not likely. While I don't think it's impossible those gets introduced one day in some form or other the daemon primarch has been pretty much confirmed to be Magnus.
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Davor wrote: They don't have stellar rules now. I am not sure what you are trying to say. Please explain.
I think that's his point. Conspiracy theory remember? He's suggesting enemies of Imperium have been in past given deliberately lousy rules to ensure they can't possibly win this campaign. Pretty long term planning that.
^ If so he will be the second Demon Primarch to show up in a materium, the first one since Angorn attacked Armageddon (and lose! banished (or killed?) by Grey Knights.
Lone Cat wrote: ^ If so he will be the second Demon Primarch to show up in a materium, the first one since Angorn attacked Armageddon (and lose! banished (or killed?) by Grey Knights.
The Daemon Primarchs show up all the time. Mortarion showed up (Draigo killed him to become SGM). Perturabo has a story in GK codex aboout unleashing a Nurgle plague. Angron at Armaggeddon and probably a few other times as well.
Galef wrote: Doing a 40K End Times would be cool, as long as it doesn't actually end like Fantasy. Building up to a cleaned-up (read slimmed down) 8th ed would be ok.
I just don't want to relearn a whole new ruleset and have to revamp all my army lists....again.
To be fair though, do you want GW to disappear? I mean put yourself in there shoes. How will you make money if you keep everything the same? something has to change. So a new rule set keeps GW in business. After all we want to keep playing right? Yes it sucks learning a new rule set. Yes it sucks revamping the armies. For a lot of people making new armies is half the fun. Sometimes we have to suffer a bit or accept the minor annoyances to be able to keep playing. The other end is keeping everything the same, means no games to play in the short future.
Funny how other games manage to survive without redoing everything all the time though.
And besides GW has been insisten on them being MODEL company with MODELS being their main focus. That means they could release new models without redoing fluff and rules constantly. Indeed this would allow them more time to focus on models rather than spend some of time on rules as well.
Most other games have fluff that moves forwards, and they still have edition changes and such. Edition changes generally not as often granted but they still change things.
As for them being a model company, I think that was Kirby who continually stated that. He's gone. Things are changing.
Lone Cat wrote: ^ If so he will be the second Demon Primarch to show up in a materium, the first one since Angorn attacked Armageddon (and lose! banished (or killed?) by Grey Knights.
The Daemon Primarchs show up all the time. Mortarion showed up (Draigo killed him to become SGM). Perturabo has a story in GK codex aboout unleashing a Nurgle plague. Angron at Armaggeddon and probably a few other times as well.
Fulgrim and Mortarion as well.
Though albeit most of them are mostly just...Well sitting. That's pretty lame excuse to avoid releasing model and rule. I mean Lorgar has been basically locked up in his hiding place all this time meditating or whatever he's doing. Could have them been doing BIT more in the years between HH and now and then have them go into hiding to build up for the final attack. Rather than just sit at the eye all this time
Lorgar doesn't do things though. That's part of his character. He's completely paralyzed when it comes to original thought and only acts when someone tells him what to do.
I was trying to make the point you could prevent Chaos or Tyranids from "winning" if on a whole they're given less than stellar rules.
They don't have stellar rules now. I am not sure what you are trying to say. Please explain.
Conspiracy theory:
GW is going to have a global campaign. They want Eldar, Tau, and Space Marines to "win" the campaign. They could intentionally give the other codexes mediocre rules, and the codexes they want to win more powerful rules to ensure the result they want. The fact that Chaos, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, etc already have less than stellar rules is exactly why they wouldn't do well in a global campaign, supporting my conspiracy theory.
Edit: thanks tneva82 for explaining for me last page.
Kanluwen wrote: "Beast Arises" is a major plot development happening right now.
You're welcome to say that it "never got rules for the game"(which is absolutely true) but it is also a thing going on right now.
It is seemingly laying the groundwork for the return of some Loyalist Primarchs(Vulkan states in "The Hunt for Vulkan" that he could not return yet to the Imperium as "this was not the war he was intended to return for"--and he tells one of the Last Wall that 'they are true Sons of Dorn and that when he next sees Dorn, he shall speak of his sons with pride') and possibly laying the groundwork for more Ork stuff later on.
It's set 1,000 years after the Heresy, that isn't " right now".
Well i for one will welcome our new primarch overlords. A revamp of 40k could be a real boon- im much more excited about AOS than i ever was from whfb; and although there was a slow start isn't it now selling three times as much?
Kanluwen wrote: "Beast Arises" is a major plot development happening right now.
You're welcome to say that it "never got rules for the game"(which is absolutely true) but it is also a thing going on right now.
It is seemingly laying the groundwork for the return of some Loyalist Primarchs(Vulkan states in "The Hunt for Vulkan" that he could not return yet to the Imperium as "this was not the war he was intended to return for"--and he tells one of the Last Wall that 'they are true Sons of Dorn and that when he next sees Dorn, he shall speak of his sons with pride') and possibly laying the groundwork for more Ork stuff later on.
It's set 1,000 years after the Heresy, that isn't " right now".
By "right now", I mean this is the first time the events of "The Beast Arises" have been explored. Not that it is set in the current time frame of 40k.
Tailessine wrote: Well i for one will welcome our new primarch overlords. A revamp of 40k could be a real boon- im much more excited about AOS than i ever was from whfb; and although there was a slow start isn't it now selling three times as much?
There's absolutely no information to support that outside of GW's own offices, so wherever you got that idea is likely nothing more than speculative or anecdotal.
Certainly there hasn't been any sort of seismic shift in their financial reports to suggest this, but the next one is due shortly, so we may be able to surmise something, but as they don't report by product line it will be purely educated guesswork unless there is something explicit in the CEO's statement or similar.
There's so much material between 30k and 40k that could be covered that going for a 40k End Times is generally pointless. It's a setting for stories, one that is much more easily copy-righted than the much more generic WHFB one was, not a story.
What other miniatures games have been around for 30 years and are still popular without having any updates? Even Monopoly gets new versions every year, though they do still sell the classic version.
While AoS only has 4 pages, really 2 pages of rules, there is so many special rules on the war scrolls, that AoS is really not a simple came but a simpler game now, with a lot of complexity. It works because you don't feel like you have to remember the entire rule book and when you need to find that rule, it's on the war scroll right in front of you and don't have to flip through book and waste time arguing how something works.
Mistaking convolutedness with complexity again. AoS is not complex, it's fundamentally simplistic but with hundreds of pages of garbage attached to it. It takes the single most impractical aspect of Warmachine - having to remember unique rules for every unit - which Warmachine is trying to minimize with USRs - and makes it the foundation of the system. But I do agree with you that 40k will head in the same direction, the formations with their free extra rules are a clear indicator of that.
To be honest, plastic primarchs with 40K rules (daemon or otherwise) is a license to print money, so I'm kind of shocked its taken them this long to get around to it. They've kept the loyalist primarchs' fluff so shrouded in mystery that pretty much all but one of them could return with an easy explanation (sorry Iron Hands players). With the daemon primarchs, they open the door to traitor legion rules, which would crank the fan frenzy to 11.
As for the campaign, all signs are really pointing toward a Thousand Sons army of some sort coming out this year, even if its a bunch dataslates in a campaign book. I seriously doubt GW is going to ever do a global interactive campaign such as Armageddon or Eye of Terror, they simply don't want the direction of the fluff to be in players' hands again. But I could see a series of campaign books in the same vein as End Times where they introduce new models, new units, etc without a proper codex release.
This would of course, likely lead up to a new edition of 40K, a system that is hopefully a bit more streamlined and sensible, but it will still use the formation/dataslate system already in place (and likely the current flyer rules in DFTS), so the current books aren't completely useless. There is nothing to prevent GW from doing the same thing for existing units that they did with AoS, redo the rules and publish the dataslates for older units for free until an updated book collecting each army comes out down the road.
Breotan wrote: Twenty bucks says the next edition of 40k will look very much like this. But with points. I think GW learned their lesson on that, at least.
I'm all kinds of ok with that. 40k in its current form has just become so bloated. It has ever bit the fringe cases, volume of rules, etc... of Sigmar, but at least that game has the decency to put your select rules right in front of you, for only the units you've selected, versus spreading them thinnly throughout formations, detachments, the big-rule-book, a Codex, a Codex supplement, and Forgeworld's books.
I was thinking about it today... do say, Skimmers really warrant a whole chunk of a page in the big-rule-book, when the actual flavor those rules suggest could've easily been a bullet-point in the unit? If we trimmed every one of those hyper extraneous rules out of the core-book you could have a significantly easier core set of rules to teach, with complexity coming from unit synergy etc... the way they do now anyway, but with a fraction of the up-front intimidation.
Oh, and I will gladly take a points-system given feedback by the 40k tournament community, etc... over what we have. Stuff like holding the pretense that CADs are still the default feels naive when its clear that at least the road GW has gone down is one of formations gone amok.
Breotan wrote: Twenty bucks says the next edition of 40k will look very much like this. But with points. I think GW learned their lesson on that, at least.
I just realized FW probably has more publication tied to the current rules than GW does. Some pretty high value ones too. Wonder if that will play into how far from 7th the next edition will land, or if they'll throw all the HH and IA stuff under the bus.
Funny how other games manage to survive without redoing everything all the time though.
Where are they? They are small potatoes compared to GW. Even PP has done an edition change and it's their third one now. Yes the rules are free, but a lot of people are buying new stuff now because of a new edition. This GW knows as well. PP is making a new edition because they know to it will make people spend more money and that is how they keep surviving. Look at Battletech. I love how time line always changes. Thing is the rules haven't changed much from the beginning, so people don't buy as much because once you have what you bought you don't need anymore. Again I said look at it from a business point of view or in GW eyes. How are you going to keep making the same money you are. While GW profits are no where near what they use to be, they are still in the millions of profit and the small potatoes companies that "don't" do it would love to have GW profits.
So again I ask you, how do you sustain the large profits and keep them up? You are running the business now.
Davor wrote: They don't have stellar rules now. I am not sure what you are trying to say. Please explain.
I think that's his point. Conspiracy theory remember? He's suggesting enemies of Imperium have been in past given deliberately lousy rules to ensure they can't possibly win this campaign. Pretty long term planning that.
Breotan wrote:Twenty bucks says the next edition of 40k will look very much like this. But with points. I think GW learned their lesson on that, at least.
OH I would so LOVE this to happen. All the rules for the units on a warscrolls, or I should say dataslates.
You know what i don't see on those warscrolls ? Options.
If you can't pick unit sizes, weapon options, upgrades etc.. you might as well be playing Warmachine with their neat little stat cards.
If I wanted to play War Machine I can already do that.
Don't make 40K War Machine.
Don't make 40K Kings of War in Space.
Don't make 40K Age of Sigmar in Space.
Don't make 40K Anything that automaticaly invalidates every codex.
In AoS unit options are listed under the description, with language to the effect of "sometimes models in this unit wield X and Y, othertimes they go to battle with twin Zs" and "A unit of These Fighty Dudes and Dudettes has N or more models".
I have the feeling that the FAQs they're putting out right now for 40k are a dry run for similar things in the future. if this process works for them, they'll likely use it going forward with the next edition of the game.
The Daemon Primarchs aren't returning alone? So, with Angron, Perturabo, Magnus, and the rest I don't really care about, we are going to see...
Guilliman getting off the toilet? Lion is getting a kiss from Prince Charming? The Khan remembers he's a primarch and punches his way out of prison? Vulkan stops being a dick and comes back?
I kind of want to see Guilliman/Fulgrim round two, now that Fulgrim has had ten thousand years to rot his brain with Slaanesh...
ClassicCarraway wrote: To be honest, plastic primarchs with 40K rules (daemon or otherwise) is a license to print money, so I'm kind of shocked its taken them this long to get around to it. They've kept the loyalist primarchs' fluff so shrouded in mystery that pretty much all but one of them could return with an easy explanation (sorry Iron Hands players). With the daemon primarchs, they open the door to traitor legion rules, which would crank the fan frenzy to 11.
Well BA primarch got killed by Horus so if he comes back so too can Iron hands primarch
His killing got confirmed by Emperor and Dorn and his death scarred his legion by psychic effect enough that otherwise noblest and best space marines have ever since been plagued by that memory that can turn them to lunatics.
Man, if Dorn comes back, he better have a huge power fist in place of his missing hand. Like Dreadnought-sized Power Fist or Knight Warden-sized Power Fist.
adamsouza wrote: You know what i don't see on those warscrolls ? Options.
If you can't pick unit sizes, weapon options, upgrades etc.. you might as well be playing Warmachine with their neat little stat cards.
If I wanted to play War Machine I can already do that.
Don't make 40K War Machine.
Don't make 40K Kings of War in Space.
Don't make 40K Age of Sigmar in Space.
Don't make 40K Anything that automaticaly invalidates every codex.
Warmachine with space marines would be a vast improvement
adamsouza wrote: Don't make 40K Anything that automaticaly invalidates every codex.
This is the only way to make 40k good, tho. The 20 years of backwards compatibility is the fundamental reason why 40k is the complete trainwreck that it is.
adamsouza wrote: Don't make 40K Anything that automaticaly invalidates every codex.
This is the only way to make 40k good, tho. The 20 years of backwards compatibility is the fundamental reason why 40k is the complete trainwreck that it is.
Exactly. They need to do what they did with Age of Sigmar. Completely overhaul everything at once, but release the rules for each army for free.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Man, if Dorn comes back, he better have a huge power fist in place of his missing hand. Like Dreadnought-sized Power Fist or Knight Warden-sized Power Fist.
Nah, Dorn will be squeezed into a centurion suit that he's been hiding in for a few thousand years, waiting for the right moment to reveal himself.
adamsouza wrote: Don't make 40K Anything that automaticaly invalidates every codex.
This is the only way to make 40k good, tho. The 20 years of backwards compatibility is the fundamental reason why 40k is the complete trainwreck that it is.
Exactly. They need to do what they did with Age of Sigmar. Completely overhaul everything at once, but release the rules for each army for free.
I actually agree with this 100% the struggle of maintaining past framework for the armies coupled with the catch 22 task of introducing new units/rules/weapons into a game defined by its past editions is simply put, an exercise in futility. This is how we end up with heavy bolters being useless, autocannons garbage, Missile Launchers trash, grav-weapons dominating, and 90% of the issues in 40k stem from this practice of keeping the old, ancient theories and mechanics.
40k should play like AOS with a bit more tactical depth, army construction that is flexible, fluid, balanced, retain the weapon options, and introduce an adaptive and responsive turn system.
adamsouza wrote: You know what i don't see on those warscrolls ? Options.
If you can't pick unit sizes, weapon options, upgrades etc.. you might as well be playing Warmachine with their neat little stat cards.
If I wanted to play War Machine I can already do that.
Don't make 40K War Machine.
Don't make 40K Kings of War in Space.
Don't make 40K Age of Sigmar in Space.
Don't make 40K Anything that automaticaly invalidates every codex.
With this I can completley agree. Let 40k be 40k, trim it, make it better, but don't change the game completley. I really apreciate the complexity of the game. Making it like AoS or anything else would kill it completley for me.
If you do want to play a faster game, just turn down the points value! I have had fun games with armies at 300-750 points. It much more fast paced and easy.
I've always thought that the 40k will go the way of AoS. I think GW are heading towards one core ruleset so the basic rules will be the same for both 40K and AoS. In effect you can then stop endlessly cycling editions and the differences in the settings will be purely how they set up the armies with either a 40k/Warcraft vibe going on.
The special rules will be all included within the unit stats.
GW are also moving away from large armies that people collect one or two of and instead want people to own multiple small armies so they can maximise profits/sales from as many sets as possible. We have already seen this in some ways with the Admech, Skitarii, Harlequins, and probably future genestealer cult.
I full expect for example elder split into multiple small factions (raiders, harlequins, wraith). It's the one reason I think we have not seen plastic aspects because I think many of them will be going the way of the dodo. I also expect marines to be factionised (so might get heavy bias, assault bias, speed bias etc).
40k is - despite its obvious flaws - the most played and best sold tabletop wargame.
And GW is not able to redo all 40 or so factions - GW and FW - at once or anything similiar. A more conservative approach to whats happening with 40k would be they will release an 8th edition rule set that has not that many bad written rules. A complete overhaul of main rules and codex/campaign books at once is not likely.
And a year before the first Warhammer Fantasy End Times Campaign rumors surfaced several sources (most prominent the spanish ones) said WFB is dead and there is going to be a replacement. This is the opposite of what we have in this rumor set from Atia.
Warhams-77 wrote: 40k is - despite its obvious flaws - the most played and best sold tabletop wargame.
It's also by far the most difficult for new players to pick up and relies heavily on a shrinking base of long-time addicts. It is the only major wargame whose player base is shrinking while the hobby industry as a whole is rapidly expanding. Even GW has stopped sticking its head in the sand.
So hopefully they've learned from their mistakes and will blandify simplify everything and tone down the power creep going forward. Just in time for the new CSM codex.
Overall it may be the most played, but that is due to the plethora of other games available. I have gone from exclusively playing 40k 18 years ago to selling most and rarely playing it in 7th (I did play a lot in 6th). I now play wwx, infinity, mercs, relicblade, aos, and many miniature based board games.
I have learned most other games are far cheaper, less time inclusive, and easier to store as less is needed.
From what I've seen, 40k is slipping fast (no more flgs games being played, replaced by x wing). Maybe the end times or a new edition would help. I know smaller armies and no formations would help.
I don't mind an end times, or the return of the primarchs, as long as it doesn't make the game larger scale or create more balance issues. I wonder what xenoshyft armies will get to balance primarchs and demons?
Don't move the story forward anymore than you have GW, please... Just expand on the infinite things within the timeline we know! Many lifetimes of content there - leave this part to our individual groups and imaginations, please!
I don't really want the game to change too much. I would be fine with them keeping the game mostly as is. With a rulebook that isn't riddled with ambiguity and random choice. Something that most definitely requires a new edition. They could completely change the rules in detail, but still offer much the same game we have now. Even if that requires a simple version and an advanced ruleset that goes into all the gritty detail.
Maybe some changes to activation or at least a chance to react and some actual strategic layer.
I would hate to have the rules all over the place like AoS. My USR section is starting to get all frayed, but it takes me seconds to look up a rule.
The other maybe most important, thing 40k NEEDS to do, is make the games play faster and to give the player more control over their army. Such as choosing spells and traits, which would also remove needless rolling and management at the start of a game. You should be able to set up and play right away. Oh and put all that D back into apocalypse where it belongs.
The game doesn't feel bloated to me at all. It just needs to have a serious facelift to modernize it. It doesn't need to/shouldn't become a differernt game.
adamsouza wrote: You know what i don't see on those warscrolls ? Options.
If you can't pick unit sizes, weapon options, upgrades etc.. you might as well be playing Warmachine with their neat little stat cards.
If I wanted to play War Machine I can already do that. Don't make 40K War Machine. Don't make 40K Kings of War in Space. Don't make 40K Age of Sigmar in Space. Don't make 40K Anything that automaticaly invalidates every codex.
Pretty much this. This approach of "Hey, I don't really like how 40k is played, I want it to be just like X!" that many people take pisses me off to no end. Well how about no? How about we don't turn 40k into X just because you love X so much? How about you just go and play X? I have nothing against just trimming points values, changing OP/UP special rules and formations. That's balancing work. Moving all the special rules to datasheets is also fine, scince it literally changes nothing, just makes stuff more convenient. Hell, it's like the only good thing to come out of AoS. But that's not all people are suggesting, is it? Oh no. For some reason it never occurs to them that there are others that do like having a buttload of special rules and how they synergise with each other, the mechanic of formations and how they allow for more playstiles, etc., etc. Why did we come to a point where people think it's acceptable to compromise the fun of Y for others just so they could get more of their beloved X which they already have?
455_PWR wrote: Overall it may be the most played, but that is due to the plethora of other games available. I have gone from exclusively playing 40k 18 years ago to selling most and rarely playing it in 7th (I did play a lot in 6th). I now play wwx, infinity, mercs, relicblade, aos, and many miniature based board games.
I have learned most other games are far cheaper, less time inclusive, and easier to store as less is needed.
From what I've seen, 40k is slipping fast (no more flgs games being played, replaced by x wing). Maybe the end times or a new edition would help. I know smaller armies and no formations would help.
I don't mind an end times, or the return of the primarchs, as long as it doesn't make the game larger scale or create more balance issues. I wonder what xenoshyft armies will get to balance primarchs and demons?
At my FLGS, 40k night has the biggest turn out of any tabletop game other than the random D&D games going on. X-Wing only has an overall membership of like 5 people at most, and the 3 people that showed up to play Maulifaux eventually just stopped coming. Meanwhile, 40k is getting new players with regularity.
And the two monthly tourneys I go to are doing well. Always high turnout, always some of the same crowd but almost always there's at least one new person or a returning player who hasn't played since X edition and really wants to get back into it.
Couldn't they further separate FW's 30k and GW's 40k by using different core rules? Let Forgeworld publish their own "7th edition" ruleset to work with all the current 30k content, and Games Workshop can do whatever they want with their own core rules?
From what I understand isn't 30k mostly balanced against other 30k stuff already? If balance is a goal it might make sense to let FW continue with the current ruleset while GW revamps their codex system.
Pie in the sky I know, but it makes sense to me that of there's a big edition change it might be better for all the current FW products to stay in the 6-7th era rules.
Roknar wrote: I don't really want the game to change too much. I would be fine with them keeping the game mostly as is. With a rulebook that isn't riddled with ambiguity and random choice. Something that most definitely requires a new edition. They could completely change the rules in detail, but still offer much the same game we have now. Even if that requires a simple version and an advanced ruleset that goes into all the gritty detail. Maybe some changes to activation or at least a chance to react and some actual strategic layer. I would hate to have the rules all over the place like AoS. My USR section is starting to get all frayed, but it takes me seconds to look up a rule. The other maybe most important, thing 40k NEEDS to do, is make the games play faster and to give the player more control over their army. Such as choosing spells and traits, which would also remove needless rolling and management at the start of a game. You should be able to set up and play right away. Oh and put all that D back into apocalypse where it belongs. The game doesn't feel bloated to me at all. It just needs to have a serious facelift to modernize it. It doesn't need to/shouldn't become a differernt game.
Actually 40k is the game where you have the rules all over the place, not AoS. If you want to look up the rules for one unit you might have to look at their Codex entry, the equipment and weapons section of the codex or the rulebook (or both), the Unit Type section in the rulebook, the USR section, a formation, possibly a spell card, maybe even a Warlord Trait table... whereas in AoS you have the Warscroll and possibly a batallion (formation) and that's it. Much easier and player-friendly, and an approach I wish 40k would take.
adamsouza wrote: You know what i don't see on those warscrolls ? Options.
If you can't pick unit sizes, weapon options, upgrades etc.. you might as well be playing Warmachine with their neat little stat cards.
If I wanted to play War Machine I can already do that.
Don't make 40K War Machine.
Don't make 40K Kings of War in Space.
Don't make 40K Age of Sigmar in Space.
Don't make 40K Anything that automaticaly invalidates every codex.
Pretty much this.
This approach of "Hey, I don't really like how 40k is played, I want it to be just like X!" that many people take pisses me off to no end.
Well how about no? How about we don't turn 40k into X just because you love X so much? How about you just go and play X?
I have nothing against just trimming points values, changing OP/UP special rules and formations. That's balancing work. Moving all the special rules to datasheets is also fine, scince it literally changes nothing, just makes stuff more convenient. Hell, it's like the only good thing to come out of AoS.
But that's not all people are suggesting, is it? Oh no. For some reason it never occurs to them that there are others that do like having a buttload of special rules and how they synergise with each other, the mechanic of formations and how they allow for more playstiles, etc., etc.
Why did we come to a point where people think it's acceptable to compromise the fun of Y for others just so they could get more of their beloved X which they already have?
The problem for me personally is that 40k is often complicated for its own sake, with complicated rules and interactions that add very little or nothing to the tactical considerations a player has to make. You could trim SO much fat from 40k without decreasing the tactical aspect of the game, in fact you could easily increase it.
40k needs to be purged and whfb shows us they are making big changes and pushing in new directions. Hell the gold sigmarine outside hq shows that 40k is not untouchable.
I say by most marine dexes, by sisters,
It will be
Tyranids
Chaos
Marines ( sups to play your own)
Ncron
Orks
Eldar ( sup to play dark)
Add mech
Guard
But dont worry they will gove out free data sheets to never use.
OgreChubbs wrote: 40k needs to be purged and whfb shows us they are making big changes and pushing in new directions. Hell the gold sigmarine outside hq shows that 40k is not untouchable.
I say by most marine dexes, by sisters,
It will be
Tyranids
Chaos
Marines ( sups to play your own)
Ncron
Orks
Eldar ( sup to play dark)
Add mech
Guard
But dont worry they will gove out free data sheets to never use.
Was this... English?
They aren't going to AoS40k. That's been confirmed multiple times.
adamsouza wrote: You know what i don't see on those warscrolls ? Options.
If you can't pick unit sizes, weapon options, upgrades etc.. you might as well be playing Warmachine with their neat little stat cards.
If I wanted to play War Machine I can already do that. Don't make 40K War Machine. Don't make 40K Kings of War in Space. Don't make 40K Age of Sigmar in Space. Don't make 40K Anything that automaticaly invalidates every codex.
Pretty much this. This approach of "Hey, I don't really like how 40k is played, I want it to be just like X!" that many people take pisses me off to no end. Well how about no? How about we don't turn 40k into X just because you love X so much? How about you just go and play X? I have nothing against just trimming points values, changing OP/UP special rules and formations. That's balancing work. Moving all the special rules to datasheets is also fine, scince it literally changes nothing, just makes stuff more convenient. Hell, it's like the only good thing to come out of AoS. But that's not all people are suggesting, is it? Oh no. For some reason it never occurs to them that there are others that do like having a buttload of special rules and how they synergise with each other, the mechanic of formations and how they allow for more playstiles, etc., etc. Why did we come to a point where people think it's acceptable to compromise the fun of Y for others just so they could get more of their beloved X which they already have?
The problem for me personally is that 40k is often complicated for its own sake, with complicated rules and interactions that add very little or nothing to the tactical considerations a player has to make. You could trim SO much fat from 40k without decreasing the tactical aspect of the game, in fact you could easily increase it.
I'm not going to argue that there are a lot of bad ruling, vague ruling, blatantly unintuitive stuff, things that don't really make a lot of sence or could have the same effect just via tweaking the stats to be found in 40k in it's current state. But those are just particular instances in systems and mechanics that are not inherently flawed. I mean yes, there is a big amount of it, but that's because there is a big amount of everything in 40k. These things can easily be fixed inside the borders of those mechanics without the need to fundamentally change the game itself if GW could be bothered to do so. Sadly, it's GW so yeah…
I can agree on the codex side. The universal rules are a good thing and once you know them , they apply to all codices. The codex design is still lacking, but I find the newer codices like KDK even worse than 6th. I prefer to have the entire army summarized in the back like the 6ed codices and a nice wargear section. I can somewhat deal with the unit rules being somewhere else if they're elaborate like the possessed rules, it's not ideal but not a huge distraction either. I haven't had to look up a unit entry proper in a long time, but having the traits somewhere at the beginning an some special rules too, is annoying, as is having most of the rules somewhere in the middle.
I still think the formations are in theory a good idea, but they need to make them more adaptable. Something closer to rites of war, or even just different detachments. That means managing more rules, sure, but they add more than they hurt if done right.
Same for spells, though I would like to see the psychic phase simplified, there's too much rolling involved. Like I dunno, remove warp charges alltogether and tie perils to empowered versions of spells or something, and tie the amount of spells and power you can cast to your psyker level...something. But yea, spells add complexity but they add more to the game than you loose.
Obviously, they'd need to type them rather than having that be part of the text. IE, Shrouding would have the type blessing and nova with a range of 6. Then the spell text itself could be something like, Gain shrouded. The limitation of friendlies and the Aoe would be encoded in the range and type. But functionally nothing changed. You still get to boost mid game with spells, can deny and can suffer perils, it's just more streamlined. And not the kind of streamlined where you just remove everything that is interesting.
Requizen wrote: And the two monthly tourneys I go to are doing well. Always high turnout, always some of the same crowd but almost always there's at least one new person or a returning player who hasn't played since X edition and really wants to get back into it.
See? Anecdotal evidence doesn't mean anything.
Yes but dropping sales mean something.
Yes 40k still sells well but it does not sell as well as it used to. Only thing that's been keeping GW profits at least around same is cost cutting and price increases. Units of sales are dropping. So either people are buying less boxes or there's less players.
While it can be OK for a while dropping sales is not sustainable.
Actually 40k is the game where you have the rules all over the place, not AoS. If you want to look up the rules for one unit you might have to look at their Codex entry, the equipment and weapons section of the codex or the rulebook (or both), the Unit Type section in the rulebook, the USR section, a formation, possibly a spell card, maybe even a Warlord Trait table... whereas in AoS you have the Warscroll and possibly a batallion (formation) and that's it. Much easier and player-friendly, and an approach I wish 40k would take.
.
Which will then result in bazillion slightly different rules from what could easily have been simply same rule. And updating them is major pain. Say hello to smoke launchers that work differently based on what army you happen to use.
I think 40K will get the AOS treatment as far as rules and gameplay go. There may be differences, for instance, I think there will be points included from the start. I know that people like Attia have stated that it won't be AOS, but it will be a more simple version. I think it will end up more like AOS and less as it is now for several reasons. The first is barriers to game play. The current 40K rulebook is daunting. It discourages a lot of potential customers. GW is competing against pre-painted mini games like X-wing. A recent X-wing tournament at my store had 117 players. That's larger than any 40K tournament that I've seen locally. X-wing has maybe 10 pages of rules, including illustrations. AOS has 4 pages. The new Mk.3 Warmachine has big rulebooks, but rules don't take up that many pages. I think mass combat games are being replaced by skirmish games, and skirmish games are getting fewer rules. That's the trend. The second reason I think it will be more like AOS is something that a lot of the posters on this site feel upset about: simplification. In AOS I don't need cross reference charts, I don't need to spend hours min/maxing my army, I don't need templates and deviation dice. I like variety, but as a former WFB player, I really don't miss that part much. And GW has moved towards simplification in 40K before. Psyker phase used to be a lot more complicated, and everyone didn't used to move 6". There used to be shooting modifiers for cover, movement, etc. People complained when those things were changed, but 40 K is still drawing players. GW made the decision to change 40K two years ago, and it will take time for them to correct problems that are identified by the community, so they have to roll out the new version first. Changing the story line can be a good thing. 40K has been at 1 minute to midnight for a long time, it's time to shake things up! Maybe the emperor can't reincarnate himself because his well meaning subjects have been keeping him alive. Maybe the emperors' offspring will come out of the shadows once he dies to help save the universe (they actually used to be a thing). Maybe chaos will break the empire apart and each space marine chapter will found its' own feudal empire. If you like the Grimdark, things can get darker. If you are looking for hope, the seeds of hope are out there. So for ease of play, growing their customer base, and shaking up the storyline, I think the next 40K will look more like AOS.
The meta story is already in there. They've been teasing it for years.
I just want reasonable prices, and a desire to play a game that doesn't want to shaft me at every turn.
The sham that is AOS is another nail in their coffin, if they want to keep it up, they can just start shutting more stores to keep the shareholders paid.
I like the new starter sets, they are a step in the right direction. They need to tie in some other factions in starters, such as Nids- Eldar, or Admech- Necrons, and sell smaller starters of 2 squads and a small vehicle/ walker and some scenery. Metaq story can add in some more tease, and at least push product, while adding to the story.
Its not nessesary to kill everything and end up with starjammer part 2.
Smaller sets, sell them cheaper, and generate interest.
ClassicCarraway wrote: To be honest, plastic primarchs with 40K rules (daemon or otherwise) is a license to print money, so I'm kind of shocked its taken them this long to get around to it. They've kept the loyalist primarchs' fluff so shrouded in mystery that pretty much all but one of them could return with an easy explanation (sorry Iron Hands players). With the daemon primarchs, they open the door to traitor legion rules, which would crank the fan frenzy to 11.
Well BA primarch got killed by Horus so if he comes back so too can Iron hands primarch
His killing got confirmed by Emperor and Dorn and his death scarred his legion by psychic effect enough that otherwise noblest and best space marines have ever since been plagued by that memory that can turn them to lunatics.
Oh yeah, I keep forgetting about Sanguinius. Apologies to Blood Angels players as well, no returning primarch for you either.
Angry mobs of players always agree that the game needs an overhaul. But it's only when changes actually occur that it's revealed that they don't agree even a little on WHAT needs to change.
This forum has seen voluminous amounts of teeth-gnashing with each 40K edition change, and yet it's a game that's only evolved a little with each update since 3rd edition.
Imagine if they were to REALLY overhaul the system. It'd be like the AOS reaction squared, no matter the quality of the new ruleset.
There is some good info about the Warzone Fenris developments from the author of the 2nd novel/ebook series in this ~1 1/2 h podcast. I'm halfway through his part and it gets surprisingly interesting. Good stuff to listen to during a paint session - although the sound quality could be better (it is an voip interview).
Warhams-77 wrote: There is some good info about the Warzone Fenris developments from the author of the 2nd novel/ebook series in this ~1 1/2 h podcast. I'm halfway through his part and it gets surprisingly interesting. Good stuff to listen to during a paint session - although the sound quality could be better (it is an voip interview).
gorgon wrote: Angry mobs of players always agree that the game needs an overhaul. But it's only when changes actually occur that it's revealed that they don't agree even a little on WHAT needs to change.
This forum has seen voluminous amounts of teeth-gnashing with each 40K edition change, and yet it's a game that's only evolved a little with each update since 3rd edition.
Imagine if they were to REALLY overhaul the system. It'd be like the AOS reaction squared, no matter the quality of the new ruleset.
Except Pancake edition largely makes that whole statement a lie. That's because it largely addressed the issues people had with the current edition (5th at the time) and added some new and interesting throwback stuff.
While I'm sure there was some criticism, my recollection of that "leak" was largely one of positivity and excitement, which only went south when it became apparent it wasn't real, and then when actual 6th landed it was extra disappointing.
This whole "yeah, but even if they gave you a free puppy you'd still wail on it" rubbish is just tired and inaccurate. Examine any thread where people largely think good things about a release and it will be populated with largely positive posts, the reverse also applies. If you think people are negative about this stuff, maybe it's because they don't like it? Not because they're being deliberately negative?
No matter what will happen, GW did not learn from their mistakes.
If the 8th is just 6.2 oder Age of Whatever, they will not stick to a design or game style for the whole edition but change it soon after release.
They will carry over the problems of the game even with a complete restart.
That's cool and all, but if you've got your crystal ball out I'd rather have this week's Euromillions numbers?
Or are you just making assumptions that fly in the face of the fact that GW have been repeatedly doing stuff differently for some time now, and are showing real signs of reengagement and actually listening?
Azreal13 wrote: TGW have been repeatedly doing stuff differently for some time now, and are showing real signs of reengagement and actually listening?
Yeah, they listen now and yes they make things different regarding how to treat their customers.
But I have not seen any change how they care about their rules or that the quality of writing improved.
I really hope that I am wrong, but I just don't see any sign that the next edition will not change its design style every 6th month.
Which will then result in bazillion slightly different rules from what could easily have been simply same rule. And updating them is major pain. Say hello to smoke launchers that work differently based on what army you happen to use..
As opposed to smoke launchers which might work differently depending on which formation of the same units you happen to have taken?
Its a mystery to me whenever I see anyone defend 40k's rules. We all, or many many of us, love the game to various degrees, or else we wouldn't be in this thread, but to say it has good rules is mad. Its unquestionably bloated, often unclear, and its rules are spread across far too many possible sources.
Azreal13 wrote: TGW have been repeatedly doing stuff differently for some time now, and are showing real signs of reengagement and actually listening?
Yeah, they listen now and yes they make things different regarding how to treat their customers.
But I have not seen any change how they care about their rules or that the quality of writing improved.
I really hope that I am wrong, but I just don't see any sign that the next edition will not change its design style every 6th month.
So the first FAQ in years, based on soliciting questions that are actually frequently asked by the community, publicly sharing the first draft and inviting feedback before locking it in isn't some sort of indication that their attitude towards the rules may be changing?
Azreal13 wrote: TGW have been repeatedly doing stuff differently for some time now, and are showing real signs of reengagement and actually listening?
Yeah, they listen now and yes they make things different regarding how to treat their customers.
But I have not seen any change how they care about their rules or that the quality of writing improved.
I really hope that I am wrong, but I just don't see any sign that the next edition will not change its design style every 6th month.
So the first FAQ in years, based on soliciting questions that are actually frequently asked by the community, publicly sharing the first draft and inviting feedback before locking it in isn't some sort of indication that their attitude towards the rules may be changing?
Come on...
GW has no redeeming factors. None. Absolutely zero and acknowledging anything to the contrary means you're just a gakking shill.
Warhams-77 wrote: There is some good info about the Warzone Fenris developments from the author of the 2nd novel/ebook series in this ~1 1/2 h podcast. I'm halfway through his part and it gets surprisingly interesting. Good stuff to listen to during a paint session - although the sound quality could be better (it is an voip interview).
- His ebooks will be released as a novel later, they were written with that in mind and are set at the middle of the WZF story
- He is not allowed to say exactly what but there is more than just stories released by BL coming
- Midgardia, which - as we have known since the artist of that artwork pointed it out - is getting bombarded by the Dark Angels not Fenris and burned to the ground. It is not blown apart though.
- The Changeling is so excellent at hiding, only Tzeentch knows his real form and has much respect for that ability. The Changeling had sneaked into a SW fortress earlier. The Inquisition is investigating. Maybe I missed it but he hasnt been detected in part 1-5 afaik - Known Characters will die (not the big ones)
- He was able to write about a lot of Space Wolves characters, both recently introduced and those well known
- Epic scale story, taking place on several planets, moons and space ports - More than 14 main characters, at least 12 SM chapters involved
This is what Robbie MacNiven knows and/or allowed to say and/or his impressions regarding the game itself - do not quote him on that:
- The storyline/conflict of the Daemonic Incursion is going to expand to other areas and is not limited to the Fenris system
- My interpretation: Sounds like more Warzone campaigns for 40k in other areas
- No AoS-ification
- No Destruction of the 40k universe to start anew
Story development:
- The characters (like Azrael, Stern etc) have individual reactions to and opinions of the Wulfen. Pretty interesting stuff actually
- SW and DA arent driven by hatred for each other
- The Daemon incursions are so severe that bombing a planet was one of the last measures available
- There are different kinds of Wulfen characters, some are feral, some more human than animal
- In Part 8 everything escalates (not his words)
He is also writing a Charadon's novel and two top secret projects including a short story.
A Stormtrooper/Militarum Tempestus and more Imperial Guard stories is something he would like to work on next as they havent gotten much for a while and he also collects and plays IG. He played a lot of WFB and there will be an AoS book by him some time in the future.
The Warzone Fenris ebook series is going to end sometime in August, he doesnt know 100%, but earlier than fall 2016. There are two ebooks left.
There was a lot more talk, especially about the SW characters involved.
The first part of the WZF ebook series is available for free by the way.
Azreal13 wrote: isn't some sort of indication that their attitude towards the rules may be changing?
Come on...
Jup, it is not.
I see things different, and while most people come up with the hype "GW is changing because we get a real FAQ", I also look at the AoSFAQ and read the answers we get.
The actual answers to real questions (not that stuff that can be answered with reading the rules and the codex) indicate that nothing changed at all.
Just look at the recent BAFAQ.
It shows 2 problems of the rule design process that should have been solves long time ago.
First, they cannot decide what they want and change their mind with every codex.
The Errata for BA Scouts is nice, but now be are back in time were the only difference between a Space Marine trainee and a veteran is the armour he wears. In between they thought that there should be a difference in the profile value between trainees and veterans. But this idea was thrown away before all SM Codex books get the change.
The other thing is that in the same FAQ, they made clear that if a rule for similar units with the same same has a different wording, this is indented and not a mistake.
So no change to the "we never make mistakes while writing our rules" which is a huge problem since 3rd edition.
And the FAQ is full of such examples
What I see is that their attitude toward their customers have changed. They realized that communication with players is important and they need to give them the feeling that they take care.
But their attitude towards the rules is absolutely the same and did not change at all.
Look at AoS, the new Handbook is not even out yet and the new FAQ give tipps how to abuse it.
I really would like some streamlined rules, personally. I think they have realized that the rules are really the biggest barrier to entry, more so than even the price. I used to play 40K, up until 6th edition. I don't anymore. I've had some opportunities to play games since then, but the amount of effort that would be required to get caught up with the rules just wouldn't be worth it. I can't imagine it's very easy to show a prospective player the game and get them interested in it, when you're flipping through piles of books and formations to find the rules you need.
Crazyterran wrote: The Daemon Primarchs aren't returning alone? So, with Angron, Perturabo, Magnus, and the rest I don't really care about, we are going to see...
Guilliman getting off the toilet? Lion is getting a kiss from Prince Charming? The Khan remembers he's a primarch and punches his way out of prison? Vulkan stops being a dick and comes back?
I kind of want to see Guilliman/Fulgrim round two, now that Fulgrim has had ten thousand years to rot his brain with Slaanesh...
Azreal13 wrote: None of this seems to be showing there hasn't been a change in attitude?
So because the answers FAQ's the same way, or put out the same quality of rules like 8 years ago, is an indication for a change?
And no, saying that GW now wants to write good rules but is not able to do so is not an indication for a change (if it take them 10 years to realise that their rules are not good, how long it would take to learn how to write good ones)
Warhams-77 wrote: There is some good info about the Warzone Fenris developments from the author of the 2nd novel/ebook series in this ~1 1/2 h podcast. I'm halfway through his part and it gets surprisingly interesting. Good stuff to listen to during a paint session - although the sound quality could be better (it is an voip interview).
- His ebooks will be released as a novel later, they were written with that in mind and are set at the middle of the WZF story
- He is not allowed to say exactly what but there is more than just stories released by BL coming
- Midgardia, which - as we have known since the artist of that artwork pointed it out - is getting bombarded by the Dark Angels not Fenris and burned to the ground. It is not blown apart though.
- The Changeling is so excellent at hiding, only Tzeentch knows his real form and has much respect for that ability. The Changeling had sneaked into a SW fortress earlier. The Inquisition is investigating. Maybe I missed it but he hasnt been detected in part 1-5 afaik - Known Characters will die (not the big ones)
- He was able to write about a lot of Space Wolves characters, both recently introduced and those well known
- Epic scale story, taking place on several planets, moons and space ports - More than 14 main characters, at least 12 SM chapters involved
This is what Robbie MacNiven knows and/or allowed to say and/or his impressions regarding the game itself - do not quote him on that:
- The storyline/conflict of the Daemonic Incursion is going to expand to other areas and is not limited to the Fenris system
- My interpretation: Sounds like more Warzone campaigns for 40k in other areas
- No AoS-ification
- No Destruction of the 40k universe to start anew
Story development:
- The characters (like Azrael, Stern etc) have individual reactions to and opinions of the Wulfen. Pretty interesting stuff actually
- SW and DA arent driven by hatred for each other
- The Daemon incursions are so severe that bombing a planet was one of the last measures available
- There are different kinds of Wulfen characters, some are feral, some more human than animal
- In Part 8 everything escalates (not his words)
He is also writing a Charadon's novel and two top secret projects including a short story.
A Stormtrooper/Militarum Tempestus and more Imperial Guard stories is something he would like to work on next as they havent gotten much for a while and he also collects and plays IG. He played a lot of WFB and there will be an AoS book by him some time in the future.
The Warzone Fenris ebook series is going to end sometime in August, he doesnt know 100%, but earlier than fall 2016. There are two ebooks left.
There was a lot more talk, especially about the SW characters involved.
The first part of the WZF ebook series is available for free by the way.
I thought they stated no characters will die.
That he wanted to kill canis but GW and BL said no touching characters/fenris itself. but they gave him free reign to the extended fenris system
If they're bringing Primarchs and Daemon Primarchs I could see some of the Chapter Masters and certain chaos characters being seen as narratively redundant.
None of the characters we have models for or are of importance. He mentioned that because of the amount of SW fluff already out there we have a lot of minor characters with names (mentioned before) and he had to be cautious what he did with them. GW/BL did not allow him to kill major characters. Look at the SW painting guide, Companies of Fenris, in which basically every pack leader of several companies has a name. Now imagine writing a story in which lots of SW die, it is basically unavoidable that known characters (which doesnt mean important ones) will be amongst them.
8th ed should just be a tighter version of 7th. The big thing is that all the codexes need to come out at the same time. That way all codex developers can communicate with editors and/or project leads to coordinate similar power levels across all codexes.
Also, Odin should return to inform all the monotheists that their wrong.
*Codecies. I have been informed that my use of "codexes" is grammatically, morally, and spiritually wrong.
adamsouza wrote: They will never have all the codexes come out at the same time.
That would be terrible for sales.
I would prefer to have them do something like AoS, where we get the datasheets when the new edition comes out. We can then get the new codexes staggered the way they always have, with formations, new model rules, and hard copy versions of the data sheets.
My heart wants it to be Canis Wolfborn, but my head knows it's Ahriman.
Ha Abadon will die and Ahriman will become the new leader!
What i don't understand is why can't GW just split the 8th edition in a aos version and and rule heavy version, like in old wargames where you have simple rules and advanced rules section in the rule book, keep it simple and stupid for beginners and rule and loophole heavy for the power players in the advanced section.
Crazyterran wrote: The Daemon Primarchs aren't returning alone? So, with Angron, Perturabo, Magnus, and the rest I don't really care about, we are going to see...
Guilliman getting off the toilet? Lion is getting a kiss from Prince Charming? The Khan remembers he's a primarch and punches his way out of prison? Vulkan stops being a dick and comes back?
I kind of want to see Guilliman/Fulgrim round two, now that Fulgrim has had ten thousand years to rot his brain with Slaanesh...
Don't forget Ferrus growing his head back!
It'll be made of the same stuff his hands are. He secretly managed to find a way to keep his brain in his chest, so losing his head was only a 10,000 year inconvenience.
Crazyterran wrote: The Daemon Primarchs aren't returning alone? So, with Angron, Perturabo, Magnus, and the rest I don't really care about, we are going to see...
Guilliman getting off the toilet? Lion is getting a kiss from Prince Charming? The Khan remembers he's a primarch and punches his way out of prison? Vulkan stops being a dick and comes back?
I kind of want to see Guilliman/Fulgrim round two, now that Fulgrim has had ten thousand years to rot his brain with Slaanesh...
Don't forget Ferrus growing his head back!
It'll be made of the same stuff his hands are. He secretly managed to find a way to keep his brain in his chest, so losing his head was only a 10,000 year inconvenience.
Whatever happened to his head in the first place? I know Fulgrim gave it to Horus, but then what happened to it? It could be that it isn't his body that grows his head back, but his head that grows his body back.
Also, it turns out that it wasn't Sanguinius that Horus killed, but the Sanguinor! And that the Sanguinor has actually been Sanguinius this entire time!
Warhams-77 wrote: There is some good info about the Warzone Fenris developments from the author of the 2nd novel/ebook series in this ~1 1/2 h podcast. I'm halfway through his part and it gets surprisingly interesting. Good stuff to listen to during a paint session - although the sound quality could be better (it is an voip interview).
Yeah, his audio on Skype was a bit rough to work in. But I'm glad you got something out of it. I think Robbie will be a rising star at BL in the years to come.
Crazyterran wrote: The Daemon Primarchs aren't returning alone? So, with Angron, Perturabo, Magnus, and the rest I don't really care about, we are going to see...
Guilliman getting off the toilet? Lion is getting a kiss from Prince Charming? The Khan remembers he's a primarch and punches his way out of prison? Vulkan stops being a dick and comes back?
I kind of want to see Guilliman/Fulgrim round two, now that Fulgrim has had ten thousand years to rot his brain with Slaanesh...
Don't forget Ferrus growing his head back!
It'll be made of the same stuff his hands are. He secretly managed to find a way to keep his brain in his chest, so losing his head was only a 10,000 year inconvenience.
Perhaps the head returns with a giant robo body.
And as for Sanguinus, they suppsosedly has some of his blood in Corbulos red grail, so how hard could it be to clone him, or even let the blood be part of some Sanguinus Avatar summoning ritual. BA got some weird mojo going.
The smartest thing would perhaps be to bring back one primarch and have him reopen the emperors secret lab and reboot the primarch project on the main cogitator.
Which will then result in bazillion slightly different rules from what could easily have been simply same rule. And updating them is major pain. Say hello to smoke launchers that work differently based on what army you happen to use..
As opposed to smoke launchers which might work differently depending on which formation of the same units you happen to have taken?
Its a mystery to me whenever I see anyone defend 40k's rules. We all, or many many of us, love the game to various degrees, or else we wouldn't be in this thread, but to say it has good rules is mad. Its unquestionably bloated, often unclear, and its rules are spread across far too many possible sources.
That issue precicely comes when units etc have their own rules rather than shared ruled. When you have rules in rulebook you can be sure each unit that uses that rule uses same rule.
The more you split them to unit specific rules the more things get convoculated. As GW has shown before. Dark angel smoke launchers turning pens to glances while normal ones gave cover save instead.
Solution to prevent that isn't to put even more rules to unit specific entries. That will just compound the issue.
Crazyterran wrote: The Daemon Primarchs aren't returning alone? So, with Angron, Perturabo, Magnus, and the rest I don't really care about, we are going to see...
Guilliman getting off the toilet? Lion is getting a kiss from Prince Charming? The Khan remembers he's a primarch and punches his way out of prison? Vulkan stops being a dick and comes back?
I kind of want to see Guilliman/Fulgrim round two, now that Fulgrim has had ten thousand years to rot his brain with Slaanesh...
Don't forget Ferrus growing his head back!
Nah, rather one of Fab'Biles clones -he made for Fulgrim- somehow gets away.
Wasn`t there some novel about the head being given to his Legion for "compliance" with the Codex ?
Crazyterran wrote: Wait, what? I'm pretty sure the current (or 6th edition) Dark Angels didn't have smoke launchers that reduced pens to glances.
No that's older codex. There was period when DA stuff and SM stuff was way off sync. Smoke launchers that turned pens to glances, cyclones that fired half the shots as others, stormshields that proved 4++ rather than 3++...
That's what you get when you give out special rules in individual unit rules rather than shared rules. Change one, other gets left behind. Dark angel players remember that lesson very well.
Not to mention point costs that kept lagging behind. Codex SM gets point decrease, codex DA kept old ones. Fun fun fun.
The Black Templar book was another good example. Two heavies per five for termies and veteran tactics are two things I remember. Having to buy Krak Grenades, as well.
I remember when the Dark Angels book came out in 6th, and their marines were cheaper than the SM variants, could buy mastery levels for their librarians, had zealot instead of Litany of Battle...
Or 5th Blood Angels getting free Razorbacks for their meltagun armed Assault Msrines, fast tanks, better parking lots than their Codex equivalents did (which ruled 5th edition, at least until GK and Necrons.)
I also remember those BA and DA players telling Codex Marines players to suck it up. Oh how the wheel turns...
Rules misalignment within factions is why I favour a core book / supplement model that they've only half-heartedly implemented at the moment.
For example, all basic SM vehicles, units and equipment should be in a single book. The more divergent chapters then have a supplement that just covers their unique bits, rather than a full codex.
Or you ditch the entire codex concept and go to free (or minimal cost) data sheet downloads that allows you to update everything as and when you need to make a change. I also think this can work as your "codex" can then become a collectors type book with all the fluff, artwork, painting guides etc. for your army. They'd still sell a bunch of them because the core market is enthusiastic completionists, who like to have everything to do with their chosen faction(s). See also collectors edition codices and the FW black books/red book arrangement.
Nvs wrote: What makes you think they'll kill off Ahriman? I could see if it there was another Tzeentch CSM special character, but I doubt they'd do that.
Thousand Sons only need one boss man. Ahriman is finecast. Magnus will be plastic.
Crazyterran wrote: The Daemon Primarchs aren't returning alone? So, with Angron, Perturabo, Magnus, and the rest I don't really care about, we are going to see...
Guilliman getting off the toilet? Lion is getting a kiss from Prince Charming? The Khan remembers he's a primarch and punches his way out of prison? Vulkan stops being a dick and comes back?
I kind of want to see Guilliman/Fulgrim round two, now that Fulgrim has had ten thousand years to rot his brain with Slaanesh...
Don't forget Ferrus growing his head back!
It'll be made of the same stuff his hands are. He secretly managed to find a way to keep his brain in his chest, so losing his head was only a 10,000 year inconvenience.
Whatever happened to his head in the first place? I know Fulgrim gave it to Horus, but then what happened to it? It could be that it isn't his body that grows his head back, but his head that grows his body back.
Or he could be like a planarian and we end up with two Ferruses (Ferri?)
Nvs wrote: What makes you think they'll kill off Ahriman? I could see if it there was another Tzeentch CSM special character, but I doubt they'd do that.
Thousand Sons only need one boss man. Ahriman is finecast. Magnus will be plastic.
Magnus and Ahriman aren't exactly BFFs after Ahriman took the book and cast the Rubric. I don't see why only one can exist considering the traitor legions tend not to operate coherently and are mostly just warbands.
Nvs wrote: What makes you think they'll kill off Ahriman? I could see if it there was another Tzeentch CSM special character, but I doubt they'd do that.
Thousand Sons only need one boss man. Ahriman is finecast. Magnus will be plastic.
Ahriman doesn't control the Thousand Sons, he has a Warband called The Prodigal Sons that was banished from the Planet of Sorcerers where Magnus rules. Magnus hates Ahriman, so unless he randomly shows up to help the Space Wolves, we won't see him die.
adamsouza wrote: You know what i don't see on those warscrolls ? Options.
If you can't pick unit sizes, weapon options, upgrades etc.. you might as well be playing Warmachine with their neat little stat cards.
If I wanted to play War Machine I can already do that.
Don't make 40K War Machine.
Don't make 40K Kings of War in Space.
Don't make 40K Age of Sigmar in Space.
Don't make 40K Anything that automaticaly invalidates every codex.
Pretty much this.
This approach of "Hey, I don't really like how 40k is played, I want it to be just like X!" that many people take pisses me off to no end.
Well how about no? How about we don't turn 40k into X just because you love X so much? How about you just go and play X?
I have nothing against just trimming points values, changing OP/UP special rules and formations. That's balancing work. Moving all the special rules to datasheets is also fine, scince it literally changes nothing, just makes stuff more convenient. Hell, it's like the only good thing to come out of AoS.
But that's not all people are suggesting, is it? Oh no. For some reason it never occurs to them that there are others that do like having a buttload of special rules and how they synergise with each other, the mechanic of formations and how they allow for more playstiles, etc., etc.
Why did we come to a point where people think it's acceptable to compromise the fun of Y for others just so they could get more of their beloved X which they already have?
that's not what I was saying at all...when I say "strip it down to the basics" I mean keep the core concepts and rules but make the REST more modern. I want that so that the game can GROW...right now except for a few stores that are REALLY pushing 40K it's no played nearly as much as...say X-wing or Warmachine/Hordes. much as I don't like the AoS rules I give GW props for getting people to TALK about the game....do that for 40k PLUS smooth out/modernize the clunkier parts of the game and it can be a contender again (IMHO of course)
adamsouza wrote: You know what i don't see on those warscrolls ? Options.
If you can't pick unit sizes, weapon options, upgrades etc.. you might as well be playing Warmachine with their neat little stat cards.
If I wanted to play War Machine I can already do that.
Don't make 40K War Machine.
Don't make 40K Kings of War in Space.
Don't make 40K Age of Sigmar in Space.
Don't make 40K Anything that automaticaly invalidates every codex.
Pretty much this.
This approach of "Hey, I don't really like how 40k is played, I want it to be just like X!" that many people take pisses me off to no end.
Well how about no? How about we don't turn 40k into X just because you love X so much? How about you just go and play X?
I have nothing against just trimming points values, changing OP/UP special rules and formations. That's balancing work. Moving all the special rules to datasheets is also fine, scince it literally changes nothing, just makes stuff more convenient. Hell, it's like the only good thing to come out of AoS.
But that's not all people are suggesting, is it? Oh no. For some reason it never occurs to them that there are others that do like having a buttload of special rules and how they synergise with each other, the mechanic of formations and how they allow for more playstiles, etc., etc.
Why did we come to a point where people think it's acceptable to compromise the fun of Y for others just so they could get more of their beloved X which they already have?
that's not what I was saying at all...when I say "strip it down to the basics" I mean keep the core concepts and rules but make the REST more modern. I want that so that the game can GROW...right now except for a few stores that are REALLY pushing 40K it's no played nearly as much as...say X-wing or Warmachine/Hordes. much as I don't like the AoS rules I give GW props for getting people to TALK about the game....do that for 40k PLUS smooth out/modernize the clunkier parts of the game and it can be a contender again (IMHO of course)
Are there any Warmachine/Hordes tournaments that are as big as LVO/BAO/Adepticon/NOVA/ATC/ETC? Honestly asking, I don't know the scene that well, but those 40k events are always massive.
Jadenim wrote: Rules misalignment within factions is why I favour a core book / supplement model that they've only half-heartedly implemented at the moment.
For example, all basic SM vehicles, units and equipment should be in a single book. The more divergent chapters then have a supplement that just covers their unique bits, rather than a full codex.
Or you ditch the entire codex concept and go to free (or minimal cost) data sheet downloads that allows you to update everything as and when you need to make a change. I also think this can work as your "codex" can then become a collectors type book with all the fluff, artwork, painting guides etc. for your army. They'd still sell a bunch of them because the core market is enthusiastic completionists, who like to have everything to do with their chosen faction(s). See also collectors edition codices and the FW black books/red book arrangement.
I like your ideas. I wonder if they went with a free download army list concept just how it would impact their cash flows.
Veteran gamers (anecdotally and personally) tend to buy less model-wise but still buy the new rulebook and army books if they want to stay current.
Wondering if enough of them would shift to buying more toys to make free army books a viable concept.
I'm a fan of 3rd 40k's core book with the get-you-by army lists in the back as a complete game.
I also liked Ravening Hordes for WFB (6th edition, I think) since it did the same thing.
yeah PP has their own major event in the US (Lock and load) and my experience with mid-size conventions in my area (Captaincon and Templecon) are several hundred people for the games. I tend to see more actual Warmahordes play than 40k too.
Are there any Warmachine/Hordes tournaments that are as big as LVO/BAO/Adepticon/NOVA/ATC/ETC? Honestly asking, I don't know the scene that well, but those 40k events are always massive.
Difficult to compare, but PP has their own official Events in US and EU and they are much bigger than the actual official GW Events (which are only in England).
While private tournaments for 40k tend to be bigger than the WM/H but the this is changing at least here because the 40k tournament scene is shrinking while WM/H tournaments are growing
Jadenim wrote: Rules misalignment within factions is why I favour a core book / supplement model that they've only half-heartedly implemented at the moment.
For example, all basic SM vehicles, units and equipment should be in a single book. The more divergent chapters then have a supplement that just covers their unique bits, rather than a full codex.
Or you ditch the entire codex concept and go to free (or minimal cost) data sheet downloads that allows you to update everything as and when you need to make a change. I also think this can work as your "codex" can then become a collectors type book with all the fluff, artwork, painting guides etc. for your army. They'd still sell a bunch of them because the core market is enthusiastic completionists, who like to have everything to do with their chosen faction(s). See also collectors edition codices and the FW black books/red book arrangement.
I like your ideas. I wonder if they went with a free download army list concept just how it would impact their cash flows.
Veteran gamers (anecdotally and personally) tend to buy less model-wise but still buy the new rulebook and army books if they want to stay current.
Wondering if enough of them would shift to buying more toys to make free army books a viable concept.
I'm a fan of 3rd 40k's core book with the get-you-by army lists in the back as a complete game.
I also liked Ravening Hordes for WFB (6th edition, I think) since it did the same thing.
GW needs people to buy models or rules or both to make money. If they want people to buy models then they have to keep adding new units so that they can appeal to both new and veteran gamers. New units can also lead to expanding model counts for games and more rules bloat as new models typically get new rules. If they want people to buy rulebooks then they have to keep cranking out new additions and codexes so that they can appeal to both new and veteran gamers. New rulebooks can also lead to invalidating units, changes to previous army comp and force org, rules bloat, and codex creep/power imbalances. Currently GW does both and 40k suffers from both sets of problems. How should GW change things so that they keep up their revenue stream while removing some of the problems in the game? I have no idea, I'm not a games designer. One idea that comes to mind is maybe pushing other gameplay options? GW could throw more support behind Necromunda, Inq28, Kill Team, etc. to try to encourage gamers to either buy additional rulesets at an affordable cost or be motivated by free rules to buy more models to create new forces to play in the different game types. I always thought it was odd how GW kept Necromunda separate and distinct from all the 40k lines when there was so much crossover potential and why they changed the scale for Inquisitor. I don't game much anymore so I could be off base with these ideas but that's what comes to mind.
I like your ideas. I wonder if they went with a free download army list concept just how it would impact their cash flows.
Veteran gamers (anecdotally and personally) tend to buy less model-wise but still buy the new rulebook and army books if they want to stay current.
Wondering if enough of them would shift to buying more toys to make free army books a viable concept.
I'm a fan of 3rd 40k's core book with the get-you-by army lists in the back as a complete game.
I also liked Ravening Hordes for WFB (6th edition, I think) since it did the same thing.
Look at PP.
Rules come for free with the models, core rules are free to download, and people are still buying the printed factions books or digital cards.
Another example how free stuff increase sales would be the monty pythons youtube page. After the put their sketches for free on YT, their DvD sales increased by 15%.
So free rules/codex books would mean that veterans more likely start another faction instead of sticking to one (back in time when books were cheaper most people I played with had 3 or 4 armies but after the change and they would had to spend 80€ just to get the latest rules they only updated their most favoured faction) while collectors would buy the hard copy anyway
Jadenim wrote: Rules misalignment within factions is why I favour a core book / supplement model that they've only half-heartedly implemented at the moment.
For example, all basic SM vehicles, units and equipment should be in a single book. The more divergent chapters then have a supplement that just covers their unique bits, rather than a full codex.
Or you ditch the entire codex concept and go to free (or minimal cost) data sheet downloads that allows you to update everything as and when you need to make a change. I also think this can work as your "codex" can then become a collectors type book with all the fluff, artwork, painting guides etc. for your army. They'd still sell a bunch of them because the core market is enthusiastic completionists, who like to have everything to do with their chosen faction(s). See also collectors edition codices and the FW black books/red book arrangement.
I like your ideas. I wonder if they went with a free download army list concept just how it would impact their cash flows.
Veteran gamers (anecdotally and personally) tend to buy less model-wise but still buy the new rulebook and army books if they want to stay current.
Wondering if enough of them would shift to buying more toys to make free army books a viable concept.
I'm a fan of 3rd 40k's core book with the get-you-by army lists in the back as a complete game.
I also liked Ravening Hordes for WFB (6th edition, I think) since it did the same thing.
On the flip side, buying the codex is a barrier to picking up more cool minis. If I wanted to field an Imperial Knight, not only would I need to grab the (expensive) mini, but the book as well. Or if I wanted to add a small guard detachment to hold the backfield for may marines. Not just the current rules, but committing to maintain buying the books to keep them up to date. I’ve got guard and blood angels on my shelf. Haven’t picked up rules for them since 3rd. I see new releases, and I’d love to grab them. But I already have two main armies (SM, Eldar) and I’m not going to commit to the rules for more then that. I spend more then I’m happy with on books right now.
The big question is if the number of minis sold to people like me would outweigh the losses of codex sales.
Also, how many more people would start the game is they didn’t have to drop the cash for all the books.
Nvs wrote: What makes you think they'll kill off Ahriman? I could see if it there was another Tzeentch CSM special character, but I doubt they'd do that.
Thousand Sons only need one boss man. Ahriman is finecast. Magnus will be plastic.
Ahriman doesn't control the Thousand Sons, he has a Warband called The Prodigal Sons that was banished from the Planet of Sorcerers where Magnus rules. Magnus hates Ahriman, so unless he randomly shows up to help the Space Wolves, we won't see him die.
You're missing the point he's making. He's not talking about fluff. He's talking about the minis.
Prestor Jon wrote: I have no idea, I'm not a games designer. One idea that comes to mind is maybe pushing other gameplay options? GW could throw more support behind Necromunda, Inq28, Kill Team, etc. to try to encourage gamers to either buy additional rulesets at an affordable cost or be motivated by free rules to buy more models to create new forces to play in the different game types.
If GW would give rules out for free and keep everything streamlined and on the same level.
An option to keep sales going would be to add new units and upgrade kits. ForgeWorld is doing well with this System and there are enough Marine Chapters to keep people playing.
Next thing would be get a different playstyle to each faction. As long as all of them play the same there is no motivation to start a new one.
And of course new units help to keep sales up, but only if they are not over the top and have rules which are on the same level. This could be done with campaign books. (FW is doing this for a long time now and it works)
I have to say something here. Despite all the praise PP gets, sure their rules are free, but they have the same problems with balance as 40k does. Sure, they don't have as many formation and imbalance issues, but they still exist. There are still unusable units in WarmaHordes, OP units, and OP armies.
Quit acting like GW Is the first company to have imbalance between factions.
Are there any Warmachine/Hordes tournaments that are as big as LVO/BAO/Adepticon/NOVA/ATC/ETC? Honestly asking, I don't know the scene that well, but those 40k events are always massive.
Difficult to compare, but PP has their own official Events in US and EU and they are much bigger than the actual official GW Events (which are only in England).
While private tournaments for 40k tend to be bigger than the WM/H but the this is changing at least here because the 40k tournament scene is shrinking while WM/H tournaments are growing
WMH is a very tournament-oriented game though, so I'm not surprised. PP has like 3% the revenue of GW so they're not really competitors in that sense. X-Wing is a whole other matter though, that is crazy big.
Agreed. The sheer number of units and armies and now alliances makes balancing the game (even if they never made a new unit) extremely difficult if not impossible. You'd almost have to have a variable points calculator that took into account the enemy force composition and even that would be just a huge guessing machine.
I know it's anathema but playing games where players immediately refaced each other but had to swap sides and armies with identical deployment both games and same army getting the first go would really help improve balance in-match.
People won't do that because they don't want somebody touching their miniatures (and probably because deep-down that netlist or master list you've constructed probably isn't as much fun when you're on the receiving end).
jreilly89 wrote: I have to say something here. Despite all the praise PP gets, sure their rules are free, but they have the same problems with balance as 40k does. Sure, they don't have as many formation and imbalance issues, but they still exist. There are still unusable units in WarmaHordes, OP units, and OP armies.
Quit acting like GW Is the first company to have imbalance between factions.
The difference is that PP tries to have balance while GW just throws darts at a random chart, so Warmachine is reasonably balanced considering the complexity of the system, while 40k is worse than what an average 9th grader could write.
Prestor Jon wrote: I have no idea, I'm not a games designer. One idea that comes to mind is maybe pushing other gameplay options? GW could throw more support behind Necromunda, Inq28, Kill Team, etc. to try to encourage gamers to either buy additional rulesets at an affordable cost or be motivated by free rules to buy more models to create new forces to play in the different game types.
If GW would give rules out for free and keep everything streamlined and on the same level.
An option to keep sales going would be to add new units and upgrade kits. ForgeWorld is doing well with this System and there are enough Marine Chapters to keep people playing.
Next thing would be get a different playstyle to each faction. As long as all of them play the same there is no motivation to start a new one.
And of course new units help to keep sales up, but only if they are not over the top and have rules which are on the same level. This could be done with campaign books. (FW is doing this for a long time now and it works)
That sounds like a solid plan. I've never had the funds or inclination to get into the FW side of the game so I'm not familiar with the 30k books and rules. Seems odd that FW can get it right but GW struggles with it so much. Is faction bloat a problem for 40k? Isn't 30k basically just SM, CSM and AdMech? Adding in all the Xenos in 40k along with a fully developed IG faction brings in a lot more rules and balance issues.
Quit acting like GW Is the first company to have imbalance between factions.
But they are the only one that don't even try to solve it or work on the problems their rules have (just adding another random table to fix the issue)
A new edition is a complete new game instead of an improvement to the exiting rules and this makes it even harder to balance things.
PP is not perfect, but MKIII is re-balancing the factions and units and all of them getting new points/profiles at the same time, which is something 40k has never seen (and there are much less different units than in WM/H)
Look at AoS, the new Handbook is not even out yet and the new FAQ give tipps how to abuse it.
It also says talk to your opponent and play like you want. So change rules, ignore rules if we so like. Why is wrong with that? Oh yeah, we need to talk and be social.
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adamsouza wrote: They will never have all the codexes come out at the same time.
That would be terrible for sales.
It also says talk to your opponent and play like you want. So change rules, ignore rules if we so like. Why is wrong with that? Oh yeah, we need to talk and be social.
I see, I need to pay GW to be allowed to create my own rules to play with their models.
But why do I need to buy rules for 200 if I still need to create my own rules.
What is the reason to buy their rulebook.
I just go to the local store, meet a friend talk to him and play with our fresh created rules without spending money. Should work out perfect.
Nvs wrote: What makes you think they'll kill off Ahriman? I could see if it there was another Tzeentch CSM special character, but I doubt they'd do that.
Thousand Sons only need one boss man. Ahriman is finecast. Magnus will be plastic.
Ahriman doesn't control the Thousand Sons, he has a Warband called The Prodigal Sons that was banished from the Planet of Sorcerers where Magnus rules. Magnus hates Ahriman, so unless he randomly shows up to help the Space Wolves, we won't see him die.
GW can easily put him randomly there to kill him off though.
Depending on how much they want to change they could easily start killing off finecast characters. Too many models on sales isn't that effective and finecast is bit of a failure so wanting to reduce those isn't impossible.
GW can create all sort of weird storylines to kill off characters they want. 2 years ago who would have thought Teclis would help Malekith to become Phoenix king?
Prestor Jon wrote: Is faction bloat a problem for 40k? Isn't 30k basically just SM, CSM and AdMech? Adding in all the Xenos in 40k along with a fully developed IG faction brings in a lot more rules and balance issues.
There are SM, CSM, Mechanicum, Imperial Army and up to a point Orks and Eldar (using mor or less their 40k rules) but FW manage to keep things in line if new units are added.
If you Compare the 5 SM+AdMech Codex in 40k with the Legion lists and Mechanicum in 30k, the GW ones are a lot worse regarding balance while FW has more different units than GW.
Prestor Jon wrote: Is faction bloat a problem for 40k? Isn't 30k basically just SM, CSM and AdMech? Adding in all the Xenos in 40k along with a fully developed IG faction brings in a lot more rules and balance issues.
There are SM, CSM, Mechanicum, Imperial Army and up to a point Orks and Eldar (using mor or less their 40k rules) but FW manage to keep things in line if new units are added.
If you Compare the 5 SM+AdMech Codex in 40k with the Legion lists and Mechanicum in 30k, the GW ones are a lot worse regarding balance while FW has more different units than GW.
Sounds like the 40K End Times need to bring the game more in line with 30K than with AOS. I know 30K makes money but it seems like GW would be better off moving the FW team 40K.
Warhams-77 wrote: There is some good info about the Warzone Fenris developments from the author of the 2nd novel/ebook series in this ~1 1/2 h podcast. I'm halfway through his part and it gets surprisingly interesting. Good stuff to listen to during a paint session - although the sound quality could be better (it is an voip interview).
Yeah, his audio on Skype was a bit rough to work in. But I'm glad you got something out of it. I think Robbie will be a rising star at BL in the years to come.
A really enjoyable podcast with a lot of info, thank you for doing it. I will check out more episodes during the weekend.
adamsouza wrote: They will never have all the codexes come out at the same time.
That would be terrible for sales.
What like now?
Who ever I was answering commented that 8th edition and EVERY codex should drop at the same time.
Codex releases are spread out for multiple reasons, some are just physically practical, but mostly it's so they can hype each codex release and tempt us to try a new army EVERY time a codex is released.
Releasing new codexes all at once would be detrimental to sales of each. People would just pick their favorite faction, or the most competitive codex, and not buy the rest.
For people who only buy a single codex, they won't get that, or at least care for it, but a lot of us verterens buy damn near every codex, as they are released.
At best, we would get a Black Codex, like 2nd edition, or amry list summeries, like they did when 3rd edition released.
GW's best bet financially, if they release an 8th edition, is to release a ruleset that does not invalidate the current codexes with an errata booklet for any neccesary changes, and then release updated codexes.
Anyone with a force other than Space Marines, Craftworld Eldar, Space Wolves, and Necrons would probably appreciate an updated codex anyways.
Just because this is GW's concept of selling stuff doesn't mean that other concepts won't work.
But GW's concept is the problem why most people are complaining about the rules.
In best case scenario you get 6 months were all factions have content for the current edition
worst case is that the factions rules are spread over 3 editions.
Of course this system works good to sell stuff, but it also is the reason why lot of players are leaving after they have seen 2 edition changes and instead of buying all books, the buy 0.
Nvs wrote: What makes you think they'll kill off Ahriman? I could see if it there was another Tzeentch CSM special character, but I doubt they'd do that.
Thousand Sons only need one boss man. Ahriman is finecast. Magnus will be plastic.
Ahriman doesn't control the Thousand Sons, he has a Warband called The Prodigal Sons that was banished from the Planet of Sorcerers where Magnus rules. Magnus hates Ahriman, so unless he randomly shows up to help the Space Wolves, we won't see him die.
GW can easily put him randomly there to kill him off though.
Depending on how much they want to change they could easily start killing off finecast characters. Too many models on sales isn't that effective and finecast is bit of a failure so wanting to reduce those isn't impossible.
GW can create all sort of weird storylines to kill off characters they want. 2 years ago who would have thought Teclis would help Malekith to become Phoenix king?
There was a burst of light and then a figure appeared. It was Ahriman the Chief Librarian of the Thousand Sons!
"I am here to claim all the secrets of The Fang!" said Ahriman evilly as he stepped out of the warp portal.
"I don't think so," growled Logan Grimnar wet leopardly.
Grimnar punched Ahriman's head off so hard that Slaanesh died and all the noise marines!
"It looks like from now on you'll be Ahriman the Fell-headed" said Logan Grimnar.
Nvs wrote: What makes you think they'll kill off Ahriman? I could see if it there was another Tzeentch CSM special character, but I doubt they'd do that.
Thousand Sons only need one boss man. Ahriman is finecast. Magnus will be plastic.
Ahriman doesn't control the Thousand Sons, he has a Warband called The Prodigal Sons that was banished from the Planet of Sorcerers where Magnus rules. Magnus hates Ahriman, so unless he randomly shows up to help the Space Wolves, we won't see him die.
GW can easily put him randomly there to kill him off though.
Depending on how much they want to change they could easily start killing off finecast characters. Too many models on sales isn't that effective and finecast is bit of a failure so wanting to reduce those isn't impossible.
GW can create all sort of weird storylines to kill off characters they want. 2 years ago who would have thought Teclis would help Malekith to become Phoenix king?
There was a burst of light and then a figure appeared. It was Ahriman the Chief Librarian of the Thousand Sons!
"I am here to claim all the secrets of The Fang!" said Ahriman evilly as he stepped out of the warp portal.
"I don't think so," growled Logan Grimnar wet leopardly.
Grimnar punched Ahriman's head off so hard that Slaanesh died and all the noise marines!
"It looks like from now on you'll be Ahriman the Fell-headed" said Logan Grimnar.
What Chaos players need: Codex: Gods Legions, Codex: Legions Undivided, Codex: Renegades. What we going to get: Codex: Black Legion part IV, Codex Supplement: Black Legion Reloaded.
Nvs wrote: What makes you think they'll kill off Ahriman? I could see if it there was another Tzeentch CSM special character, but I doubt they'd do that.
Thousand Sons only need one boss man. Ahriman is finecast. Magnus will be plastic.
Ahriman doesn't control the Thousand Sons, he has a Warband called The Prodigal Sons that was banished from the Planet of Sorcerers where Magnus rules. Magnus hates Ahriman, so unless he randomly shows up to help the Space Wolves, we won't see him die.
GW can easily put him randomly there to kill him off though.
Depending on how much they want to change they could easily start killing off finecast characters. Too many models on sales isn't that effective and finecast is bit of a failure so wanting to reduce those isn't impossible.
GW can create all sort of weird storylines to kill off characters they want. 2 years ago who would have thought Teclis would help Malekith to become Phoenix king?
There was a burst of light and then a figure appeared. It was Ahriman the Chief Librarian of the Thousand Sons!
"I am here to claim all the secrets of The Fang!" said Ahriman evilly as he stepped out of the warp portal.
"I don't think so," growled Logan Grimnar wet leopardly.
Grimnar punched Ahriman's head off so hard that Slaanesh died and all the noise marines!
"It looks like from now on you'll be Ahriman the Fell-headed" said Logan Grimnar.
All the Space Wolves laughed.
The End.
I will accept this so long as Logan keeps that one-liner.
All of the CSM characters that are representative of a particular chaos god are "Renegades" and not strictly speaking legion conformists. It's an often overlooked detail but important to understanding the disconnect between GW's representation of CSM and the more legion-centric form the player base desires. The challenge with CSM has always been there are so many variations that it's a real challenge to include them all.
With the emergence of the Daemon Primarchs it opens up the possibility that these internal conflicts take centerstage. If the rumor of legion and renegade rule being separate and distinct are true the Daemon Primarchs maybe the characters for one while the current CSM characters are representative of the other.
Yaraton wrote: What Chaos players need: Codex: Gods Legions, Codex: Legions Undivided, Codex: Renegades. What we going to get: Codex: Black Legion part IV, Codex Supplement: Black Legion Reloaded.
Pretty much. They don't necessarily have to be separate books but they need to have distinct rules.
I thought typhus pretty much did his own thing at this point while Mortarion sits in the warp and tries to figure out how to get rid of scarring on his heart.
adamsouza wrote: For people who only buy a single codex, they won't get that, or at least care for it, but a lot of us verterens buy damn near every codex, as they are released.
Who the feth does that now? When a codex used to be $20 it was actually doable, but not when they're $50-60 a pop and they're being replaced within a year or two.
I still bought them at $50 a pop ($100 for the limited versions of the armies I played). Then they redid several books in less than two years... I stopped buying all books except for the few armies I have left that I play. The price is not worth the pictures, art, and fuff like it used to be.
Yeah, i remember someone saying something sbout Mark 3 being to much of a pain in plastic. Do we have any MK3 legs in plastic, now that I think about it?
Crazyterran wrote: Yeah, i remember someone saying something sbout Mark 3 being to much of a pain in plastic. Do we have any MK3 legs in plastic, now that I think about it?
Not that I can think of off-hand. I can see how that might be the case. Oh well, looks like my HH Era Imperial Fists will be in Mk IV armor if I decide to get them.
Fabius? Doesn't hang with his Legion. More interested in making Super-Marines.
Ahriman? Banished by his Legion for fething everything up.
Kharn? Essentially broke his own legion up due to his own insanity.
Only Typhus and Failbaddon seem to be sticking with their Legions.
Typhus is known as The Traveler because he was sick (har) of Mortarion rotting on the Plague Planet, and decided to go out and spread the word (and sickness) of Nurgle.
And Abbaddon is TOTALLY distanced from his former legion, painting their armor black, being the only legion to change their name and considering Horus a fool.
And Abbaddon is TOTALLY distanced from his former legion, painting their armor black, being the only legion to change their name and considering Horus a fool.
The entire legion did that. They painted their armour black to mark the shame and grief of their defeat and then united under Abaddon. If there are still Sons of Horus (or even Luna Wolves) floating around out there as any kind of organisation then that's a new addition. Being unified is what sets the Black Legion apart from the others.
Fabius? Doesn't hang with his Legion. More interested in making Super-Marines.
Ahriman? Banished by his Legion for fething everything up.
Kharn? Essentially broke his own legion up due to his own insanity.
Only Typhus and Failbaddon seem to be sticking with their Legions.
Typhus is known as The Traveler because he was sick (har) of Mortarion rotting on the Plague Planet, and decided to go out and spread the word (and sickness) of Nurgle.
And Abbaddon is TOTALLY distanced from his former legion, painting their armor black, being the only legion to change their name and considering Horus a fool.
True but at the same time it's more of a Sons of horus reborn thing he has going on. So of all the characters, Abaddon and Typhus are probably still the closest to their legions.
And Abbaddon is TOTALLY distanced from his former legion, painting their armor black, being the only legion to change their name and considering Horus a fool.
The entire legion did that. They painted their armour black to mark the shame and grief of their defeat and then united under Abaddon. If there are still Sons of Horus (or even Luna Wolves) floating around out there as any kind of organisation then that's a new addition. Being unified is what sets the Black Legion apart from the others.
Fabius? Doesn't hang with his Legion. More interested in making Super-Marines.
Ahriman? Banished by his Legion for fething everything up.
Kharn? Essentially broke his own legion up due to his own insanity.
Only Typhus and Failbaddon seem to be sticking with their Legions.
Typhus is known as The Traveler because he was sick (har) of Mortarion rotting on the Plague Planet, and decided to go out and spread the word (and sickness) of Nurgle.
And Abbaddon is TOTALLY distanced from his former legion, painting their armor black, being the only legion to change their name and considering Horus a fool.
True but at the same time it's more of a Sons of horus reborn thing he has going on. So of all the characters, Abaddon and Typhus are probably still the closest to their legions.
Eh, there were barely any Sons of Horus left by the time Abaddon created the Black Legion, and he'd abandoned them and gone off on his own. He more created a legion from scratch out of anyone that would follow him than it being a SoH reborn thing.
There is mention of some in the black legion supplement. The Sons of the Eye, which are butthurt about abaddon being the leader. The wolves of Horus who got a bad case of nostalgia wanted to be luna wolves again and the True Sons who keep the traditions of the Sons of horus alive and still worship horus. The rest all seem to pretty much seem to have followed abaddon or at least accept his position as warlord. Those that are left anyway, quite a few must have died as they fell to depression and fighting other legions with no real goal beyond survival.
But he didn't build the Black Legion from the fraction of the SoH that were left after Terra and the Legion Wars, he built the Black Legion and most of them happened to join it. The Black Legion aren't the Sons of Horus. I would definitely count Abaddon as one of the Chaos leaders who left their former legion.
ImAGeek wrote: But he didn't build the Black Legion from the fraction of the SoH that were left after Terra and the Legion Wars, he built the Black Legion and most of them happened to join it.
At it's core it was all Black Legion(still sons of horus at that time). After that he started taking anybody in who would accept his leadership. No idea how much That core of SoH affects the legion as a whole though.
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