Games Workshop has always been scum about this. Majority of the reasons why none of my friends can get into this damn hobby is because
of the bs they pull off with their prices. Half the time me and my friends have to buy used models off ebay just so we could have enough to get a game going. My local games store owner tried to justify Game's workshop's business model, saying how there are certain models that have to be expensive in order to balance the game and not have everyone with really over powered units. He also went to explain how there had also been a tin shortage a couple years back which caused the models to skyrocket in price. While that's true, it doesn't justify the fact that all it is is just a plastic mold that costs ¢19 to manufacture and then have to slap a $45 price tag at the end of it.
Hell, even Magic the Gathering is cheaper than this. And on top of all that, my friends now have to buy the citadel paint sets and brushes for yet again another $30 - $40. What the hell GW?
The reality is that a small plastic squad of 10 Space Marines should only have to cost $10 - $20, and then Tanks such as Rhino cost $25 - $35. If GWREALLY wanted to get more people on board with this hobby, why not make it, I don't know, more available and affordable?
How is this any different from buying a plastic toy G.I. Joe tank at ToysRUs for $30? Or any sized action figure for $15 compared to a $90 Wraithlord? Companies like Matel and Hasbro sell toys around those price ranges and they seem to be holding pretty well.
At the end of the day, it's all just an overpriced miniatures hobby with breakable plastic held together by crazy glue. (Great fluff though, it's up there with J.R.R Tolkien)
If my argument is flawed on how GW is practically keeping newcomers out with their expensive hobby, please point me out on details I got and enlighten me.
Edit: What I said about MTG being 'cheaper', I meant the starting fee into the hobby. A $20 starter deck vs. $85 - $240 starting army (varying on what race you choose).
They also argue that because revenue is down, the only way to make up lost ground is to increase prices, but I would argue that they are so far past the supply and demand curve that they have priced themselves so high that it is hindering their revenue.
I would love to start second or third armies, but I wont because of the costs entailed. If I could get a box of marines for even 20-25 I would be a lot more likely to get it.
The flaw in your logic is characterizing GW as "a hobby."
GW is just one company, there are many other games available with much lower entry points, some with fluff that comfortably matches Warhammer (X Wing?)
Equally you don't need to buy Citadel anything, there are many other quality paint manufacturers and most of the time the tools and brushes can easily be bought without the branding for substantially less (brushes wise you can buy better than GW for less money.)
40K is, for me at least right now, offering very little ROI, but even if you're insistent that only 40K will do, there's Kill Team or One Page 40K that both offer the experience with smaller model counts, and subsequently less investment.
To be honest I don't think GW cares about attracting new players. They're kept afloat by the people who spend $5000 a year or more on miniatures. Some people collect every army and buy every kit that GW produces. When a new codex comes out and the power creeps forward, the competitive players just buy a new army from whatever faction is GW's flavour of the week. No point in playing a game that you can't win, after all.
Meanwhile forgeworld provides a way for the most "dedicated" fans to soar above the rest of us peasants. Now they have their own 40k with better minis and better rules, and it just happens to require three or four times as many models. So the 30K elites look down on us from their ivory towers and snicker while we struggle with our broken game and its ever-shifting, perpetually obsolete ruleset.
Luckily fans have run out of excuses to continue "supporting" GW, and Chinese pirates are taking full advantage of the situation.
A plastic toy that you can buy at toys R us is not even close to the same quality and durability as a GW plastic kit. Same with action figures/wraithlord. Its different because one is supposed to withstand the brunt force of children playing while the other is supposed to be a modeling display piece that lasts forever (theoretically).
Yes I agree that Warhammer is expensive. Buuuuuut I don't believe that certain models have to be expensive to balance them. Both the Wraithknight and the Gorkanaut are like 110 dollars, so that point is moot. Your game store owner is dumb. Yes 5 models for 50 is silly but that's pretty much been their standard.
Get a start collecting box, or play their board games which come with miniatures, or play a small game of AoS. Its really about how much you want to invest. Did I put off buying Dark Souls 3 to buy Thunderwolf Cavalry? Yes, because I wanted it. If you can't keep up with multiple expensive things than don't. As much as I want cheaper models the reality is its not happening at the moment.
And MTG cheaper? hehhhehehheheh......that depends on if you want to lose or not. A typical modern deck runs from 200-500 dollars. And don't tell me about building a budget deck, because I have a budget legacy deck: still 135 dollars.
For those of us invested in 40k, the money required to play the game is a very serious barrier to gathering new interest in our peer groups. I myself can think of 5 people in my small town that would be into 40k in a big way if it didn't cost as much as it does. I don't think it would even require a drastic change in price, just a bit.
I think if they lowered their prices, they would peddle far more product, we would have many more hobbyists wandering around out there, and the amount of unique armies I could face off against would increase twofold.
Not to mention that I myself would be giving them lots more money than I am now if I could get a little bit more stuff for it. I just can't buy some of their products because it offends my sensibilities, what I'm getting for the money doesn't even come close to making sense. Their hobby supplies especially...
For those of us invested in 40k, the money required to play the game is a very serious barrier to gathering new interest in our peer groups. I myself can think of 5 people in my small town that would be into 40k in a big way if it didn't cost as much as it does. I don't think it would even require a drastic change in price, just a bit.
I think if they lowered their prices, they would peddle far more product, we would have many more hobbyists wandering around out there, and the amount of unique armies I could face off against would increase twofold.
Not to mention that I myself would be giving them lots more money than I am now if I could get a little bit more stuff for it. I just can't buy some of their products because it offends my sensibilities, what I'm getting for the money doesn't even come close to making sense. Their hobby supplies especially...
Its all about the size. 85 dollars for a start collecting can get you a 500 point army. Glue is 4 dollars. You can borrow your friends paints (does nobody else borrow paints? just curious) You can play at a game store for their terrain. I don't think that's asking too much tbh. I mean, the only reason we think video games aren't bad is because we already have the console/PC that can play them. Starting from scratch is always going to be hard. Talking about getting into 40k specifically? There's some bloat from rules/formations that I think would be hard for anyone. I suggest getting a few models and play the fan rules for Kill Team. Theres always an alternative. We can talk about pricing until the cows come home but GW gave the cows a one way ticket out of the country.
Hasbro, mantic etc are cheap as 1) quality is mostly poorer and 2) its made mostly in china. I'm willing to spend a bit more on quality, UK manufactured models. Also, GW is not any more than lots of other manufacturers with similar quality: Hawk wargames, Anvil industry, privateer press etc.
I've ranted about GW prices before, but to be fair they're not that bad. You can't compare detailed multi-part minis to GI Joe. What gets me is the entry cost and the inconsistency. You and your buddy want to start 'hammering? You'll need the rules, and a codex each. That'll be £120 (not sure about dollars). That's a hell of an investment before even buying minis. Then the inconsistency - 10 tac marines are £25, so 5 assault marines are £12.50. Right? Wait, they have jump packs, so add £1 each. That's £17.50. Right? Nope, GW want £25 again. WTF? There's examples like that all over the place.
Oh, and if GW allow distributors to sell at up to 20% off, why don't they do that? They can obviously afford to sell at 20% off but decide to screw the people who show their local GW store some loyalty!!
Tailessine wrote: Hasbro, mantic etc are cheap as 1) quality is mostly poorer and 2) its made mostly in china. I'm willing to spend a bit more on quality, UK manufactured models.
That's a very solid point, quality always comes first.
But isn't all just with the use of plastic and a mold to produce these models? So how is it any different for if china lets say were to do it?
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Whittlesey40k wrote: 10 tac marines are £25, so 5 assault marines are £12.50. Right? Wait, they have jump packs, so add £1 each. That's £17.50. Right? Nope, GW want £25 again. WTF? There's examples like that all over the place.
Well keep in mind that's probably where shipping costs come in to which that extra gap of money compensates.
Guys and gals. Please, GW became a publicly listed company on the FTSE 100. That means it has shareholders, and what do shareholders like? Anyone? DIVIDENDS!
For those of us invested in 40k, the money required to play the game is a very serious barrier to gathering new interest in our peer groups. I myself can think of 5 people in my small town that would be into 40k in a big way if it didn't cost as much as it does. I don't think it would even require a drastic change in price, just a bit.
I think if they lowered their prices, they would peddle far more product, we would have many more hobbyists wandering around out there, and the amount of unique armies I could face off against would increase twofold.
Not to mention that I myself would be giving them lots more money than I am now if I could get a little bit more stuff for it. I just can't buy some of their products because it offends my sensibilities, what I'm getting for the money doesn't even come close to making sense. Their hobby supplies especially...
Its all about the size. 85 dollars for a start collecting can get you a 500 point army. Glue is 4 dollars. You can borrow your friends paints (does nobody else borrow paints? just curious) You can play at a game store for their terrain. I don't think that's asking too much tbh. I mean, the only reason we think video games aren't bad is because we already have the console/PC that can play them. Starting from scratch is always going to be hard. Talking about getting into 40k specifically? There's some bloat from rules/formations that I think would be hard for anyone. I suggest getting a few models and play the fan rules for Kill Team. Theres always an alternative. We can talk about pricing until the cows come home but GW gave the cows a one way ticket out of the country.
I agree with the points you make, but I counter with the fact that everyone who begins to look at 40k knows they would eventually want more than a start collecting box and a kill team game every now and then.
The way it is now, 40k is more of a lifestyle choice at first glance than a fun little game to play around with and some models to paint, especially for someone with little to no miniature wargaming background. It appears that it will require significant investments over time to continue the enjoyment of the hobby. If everyone could stop and be satisfied with their start collecting boxes, it wouldn't be a problem.
I will say however that this is the best time to get into 40k, because of the start collecting boxes. Hopefully we see more and more discount boxes, although I think it will stop at the start collecting ones.
TlR - I think it's not simply the cost of entry into the hobby, but the cost of upkeep as well, with new releases and rules changing what's viable.
With miniature games I'm playing, I try to aim for multiple uses out of the same minis if i can.
Currently building towards a Frostgrave warband, but i also want to collect Age of Sigmar, so I'll be using GW skeletons/zombies/banshees etc.
I know its not 100% possible for every model, but it definitely swung me towards collecting a death army as opposed to a savage orc army, as I'd still need skeletons for Frostgrave regardless
If the price is too high, don't buy them. It's up to the market to dictate the price, and if GW can't turn a profit by selling minis at the current price, then they'll have to reduce them to let more people into the hobby.
They're currently doing slightly below par when it comes to profits, at around £10 million before (I think) tax, which for an international company isn't huge numbers.
People ar willing to pay for their plastic toys, and they're willing to pay whatever GW has priced them at. Once that gets too high, then things will have to change.
Again, as others have said, it's a hobby. If you don't like the price, don't play.
NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote: Guys and gals. Please, GW became a publicly listed company on the FTSE 100. That means it has shareholders, and what do shareholders like? Anyone? DIVIDENDS!
They're on the LSE. Not in their wildest dreams will they ever make the FTSE100!
Besides, your point makes no sense. What are dividends made of? Profits! How do you make profits? Sell as much gak as possible!
Being a PLC may change some of a company's priorities, but making as much money as possible isn't one of them. Practices that limit the generation of profits is just as dumb an idea for a public company as a private. That GW has persisted in some apparently restrictive practices suggests that a) they're in possession of information we're not privy to that suggests that they're doing it right or b) they were run by an incompetent with a coterie of yes men.
Either is as possible as the other, but given some of the steps recently, I'd lean towards b.
My primary gripe with Games Workshop is the overwhelming inconsistency in their pricing.
Some of this is pay-to-win ($30 for a single character sprue?) and some is just inexplicable.
Then you have Start Collecting boxes and some of their board games (ie. Betrayal at Calth) which are quite fair, particularly with a retailer discount.
The only suggestions I can make:
1) Never buy from GW directly. This should be obvious but we live in the day of the internet/ebay/etc. It's incredibly common to find 20-25% discount and occasionally free shipping. So, obviously skip GW.
2) Never buy any peripheral products from Games Workshop as they're criminally priced. And normally crap to boot. Brushes, dice, templates, bases, glue, paints, etc. All can be purchased elsewhere for far less and often at better quality. This is money you're throwing away for zero reason. That $9-11 dollar bottle of PVA glue? It's frikkin' Elmer's glue, etc. Avoid their figure cases, etc.
3) If you're not playing in some kind of GW sanctioned tournament and you're playing an army with suitable 3rd party options...look into them.
4) Learn to strip models. While you can't make up for a poorly assembled model, there are some deals to be had on ebay if you're willing to spend a day soaking some figures in Super Clean and hitting them with a toothbrush etc. This is particularly important with metals as they can be 100% restored to factory condition with stripping and brushing...brand new. Don't let a 12 year old's terrible paintjob put you off an ebay auction.
But, at the end of the day...there are a lot of overpriced Games Workshop products and often they're linch pin units for certain armies. I only collect 2nd edition stuff so it's reasonable on ebay most of the time --- and I fill vehicle slots with modern plastics which are "okay" on the price front. Do I own any $42 boxes of resin (ugh!) Aspect Warriors? No. No I do not.
All of this being said, while 40K has a large "cool" factor there are a load of excellent miniatures games out there you could be doing. Consider downloading Necromunda rules and see about going that route. Kit-bashing up a gang can be tremendous fun and you'll end up with 15-20 figures each...max. Skirmish wargaming is a very good option if you want to get a great gaming experience with slightly less output (I say that, and I've spent $1500+ on an Old West table for a game I run...).
There are ways into it for reasonable prices...but not always. I feel your pain.
Griddlelol wrote: If the price is too high, don't buy them. It's up to the market to dictate the price, and if GW can't turn a profit by selling minis at the current price, then they'll have to reduce them to let more people into the hobby.
They're currently doing slightly below par when it comes to profits, at around £10 million before (I think) tax, which for an international company isn't huge numbers.
People ar willing to pay for their plastic toys, and they're willing to pay whatever GW has priced them at. Once that gets too high, then things will have to change.
Again, as others have said, it's a hobby. If you don't like the price, don't play.
It's not a hobby, it's a game within the hobby! For a company that doesn't 'do' marketing, GW have really done a number on a lot of people in convincing them otherwise!
As to profits, they announced that they didn't expect to break £16m in the interim report, but have subsequently issued a statement that they've actually performed slightly above expectations, so it's anyone's guess. The FYE report is due in a week or two.
If they have shown an upturn, I don't think the increase in good value Start Collecting boxes and games that offered great value in the miniatures will have had nothing to do with that.
It's not a hobby, it's a game within the hobby! For a company that doesn't 'do' marketing, GW have really done a number on a lot of people in convincing them otherwise!
As to profits, they announced that they didn't expect to break £16m in the interim report, but have subsequently issued a statement that they've actually performed slightly above expectations, so it's anyone's guess. The FYE report is due in a week or two.
If they have shown an upturn, I don't think the increase in good value Start Collecting boxes and games that offered great value in the miniatures will have had nothing to do with that.
Tomato, tomato. It's an entertainment product, which isn't necessary (also it's worth pointing out that OP complained about buying citadel paints, unquestionably part of the hobby). The pricing will work itself out. I hope they make things a bit more affordable, but it's always been a rather expensive hobby/game/tomato.
From what I can gather, is that they had a pretty OK year, but that Xmas last year was a little disappointing in terms of purchases.
@ Azrael(whatever). Yep, no probs with that first point, I am a bit squiffy at the moment so my share market is a bit off. However, how do you rebuke my argument with 'Profit!' when I said shareholders like dividends? Where do you think they come from? Fairy dust?
regarding 40k pricing it's worth noting that their minis aren't nesscarily HORRIFICLY priced, slightly more expensive sure but also better quality in most cases. the problem is that you also need so many minis to play the game. compare 40k to X-wing. an X-wing mini is actually not a great deal on a "mini to mini" cost (each x-wing mini is 15 bucks) BUT, with X-wing games only being about 100 points, the largest army you're looking at is maybe 10 models. meanwhile for 40k 10 models is your starting point.
that's 40ks biggest problem, scale. and honestly we're just as much the problem as GW. if people regularly played smaller games, maybe 750 points, it would reduce the cost of entry to new players. granted GW does enchourage the larger scale stuff, so it's hardly JUST OUR FAULT. but.. the scale of game play, is certainly a big contributing factor
Devils Advocate here. GW can be actually really cheap depending on how often you play. While the initial start up is expensive in the long run it's cheap.
People spend $1000s on drugs and that lasts what a few hours, minutes? A lot of people pay for sex. That is what 30 seconds of pleasure? Going out for dinner can be anywhere $20-$100 bucks, and you just crap it out. Same for drinking. People can put down $100-$200 at a bar and then just piss it out.
Then you have my wife, goes to bingo for what 2-3 hours and then most times looses. So who is actually spending a lot of money for their hobby? Once you buy GW you always have it.
Now that said, I agree with you, I find the prices asinine. But thing is, GW is a want, not a need. Do we want fancy cars? Of course most of us would love them but can't afford them. Does that mean we cry and rant about it?
If you really want that GW then you have to save for it. Since it's only your friends who want to play, you guys can set a limit on what points you want, and work with that, and slowly expand on it. If it takes not getting that Starbucks for a while, so be it. It all depends on how much you want it.
I use to rant about prices, hell sometimes I still complain about them. Thing is, you either accept it or not. I just basically buy what I can and miss out on what I want, but won't buy because I don't want to fund GW practices. It seems a lot of us are voting with our wallet now. We have accepted GW will charge high prices, we will not pay for it.
So going eBay is a good way to go. If you need to vote with your wallet do so. Rant about it, it's good to get it off your chest. Too bad a lot of people on Dakka can't see that some people need to vent and feel better after doing so, but will always need to make snide comments on it.
I just found a group of people to play with. We are starting small, basically 400 point games basically the Get Started box sets. We are slowly building off them. So do what you are doing, buy off eBay, save when you can, and just build slowly. I don't use GW paints as much anymore so that helps.
Just remember, you either accept or don't. If you don't accept, then just quit or take a break. I have done so, so many times. If you accept, rant a bit like you did, feel better, and just buy what you can. I know it sucks not being able to buy what we want, but use "counts as" when needed, but a pot of paint a week or every pay check and just work up slowly. Remember accept we are not GW customer base. We are just icing on the cake for them if we buy. Food we need. Air we need. Shelter we need. GW we don't need. GW needs us. If they will not do anything to get us to be customers so be it. That said, GW is changing. Time will tell if for the better or not. We are in a new age now with GW the Age of Rountree.
Also there is Kill Team rules we can all play for very small point games, and when needed adjust the rules if you want to play bigger point games. If you don't have the minis, then the minis that die, just bring them back from reserves. Adjust to what you guys need for fun. Then eventually you will see your collection get larger over time. We don't have to buy all at once no matter how much I/we would love to.
Also your rant wasn't very long. I think mine was.
Whittlesey40k wrote: I've ranted about GW prices before, but to be fair they're not that bad. You can't compare detailed multi-part minis to GI Joe. What gets me is the entry cost and the inconsistency. You and your buddy want to start 'hammering? You'll need the rules, and a codex each. That'll be £120 (not sure about dollars). That's a hell of an investment before even buying minis. Then the inconsistency - 10 tac marines are £25, so 5 assault marines are £12.50. Right? Wait, they have jump packs, so add £1 each. That's £17.50. Right? Nope, GW want £25 again. WTF? There's examples like that all over the place.
Oh, and if GW allow distributors to sell at up to 20% off, why don't they do that? They can obviously afford to sell at 20% off but decide to screw the people who show their local GW store some loyalty!!
You can compare detailed multi-part miniatures from GW to detailed multi-part miniatures from several other companies such as Perry Bros or Warlord.
When you do this it comes down to the fact that American Civil War infantry, Vikings, and Napoleonic Hussars did not adorn themselves with tentacles and mounds of skulls.
If you want a model with tentacles and skulls all over it, you will have to buy a GW model and accept whatever price GW sets.
Alternatively you can save 90% of the cost by not buying GW and buying a historical game instead.
I think a lot of it comes down to perceived 'value', I'm not denying GW stuff is a bit on the steep side but lets compare it to a few other things;
A Games Console, in the UK both the PS4 or Xbox1 will run you somewhere between £200-£250(ish) depending on bundle, a fair sized 1080p TV is about the same give or take, then a couple of games at say £40 a time, so we are already around the £500 mark,
I'm fairly sure you could get at least 3000pts or so of GW for that
Or maybe a gaming PC, at the low end / self build this is going to be £300-£400, with maybe another £100-£150 for an acceptable monitor, PC games tend to be a smidge cheaper than Consoles due to digital distrubtion etc but still say £30 a time, so again around the £500 mark
I'll grant you most physical hobbys might be cheaper but some are scary pricey, usually anything involving rackets or bicycles !
Also as others have mentioned GW is not the be all and end all of 'hobby', many other games have a much lower buy in, I'm fairly sure you could get a viable starting force in both Warmahordes or X-Wing for around the £100 mark, something you'd struggle with for 40k, same applies to paint, brushes etc, just because it's GW branded it doesn't make it magically superior, there is a whole Internet out there why not try using it.
GW models aren't priced "pay to win" or "pay more to balance the game" they are priced around expected sales upon release verses the cost of the production (molds/packaing/shipping/storage).
Clampacked generals for $30 aren't priced that way because they are soo bad ass they need to priced $30 to keep you from buying many of them, they are priced that way because it's expected you'll only buy 1, or 2, for your army. The cost of production has to be spread out through a significantly smaller amount of sales to recoup the investment.
The fact that's it's $.15 a model worth of plastic means little. It's the $10,000 for the steel mold that matters.
A Tactical Squad from a $50,000 mold will outsell a clampack HQ 10 to 1, bringing the price per model significantly down, even though it cost significantly more to produce to mold.
Comparing to other lines with equivalent materials, I'd say GW is not horribly off.
I think they're a bit overpriced compared to equivalents, that the volume they sell in could allow them to undercut the market and still make a profit off of greater volume, think they should really have made their army size more accessible, and don't agree with a lot of their aesthetic choices, but I don't think they're horribly off.
Re: brick and mortar selling at a discount, I can't tell if you're joking. Either way, GW isn't lowering their cut proportionally, they're just allowing stores to lower their own cut, and knowing retail, many can't handle the percentage difference.
Unless you are loaded with cash, you should consider GW to be a vendor of last resort, most GW products can be sourced online from 3rd party resellers or second hand from ebay for quite a bit less than GW's prices. GW probably maintain those prices in part to encourage resellers to stock them. When a manufacturer also does direct selling as GW does then it makes 3rd party resellers nervous of being undercut by their own supplier, when that happens they don't reorder, so GW steadily keeps up the high prices and allows the resellers room to be the ones to undercut GW. Or so I guess.
Another thing to consider is that the models actually retain their value quite well and can potentially last a lifetime. That £25 box of tactical marines can give you decades of enjoyment and then sell for quite a comparable amount when you finally tire of them. If you can give them a really good paint job they might well sell for quite a bit more than you paid for them.
Their main game 40k is fairly scalable, so you can play with just a 500pt army for starters and gradually add a little to it every few months. It looks hyper expensive if you draw up a 2500pt list then go look on GW's webstore for how much it will cost but that isn't the right way to do it. Draw up a few different lists from the codices you like, then make a mini list of around 500pts out of the units you would want in your mega list, then see about sourcing the models for the mini-list from resellers and ebay first, only dipping into GW direct if you can't find what you want elsewhere. That will do very well for starters and won't cost too much.
Also it never hurts to look out for models from other companies that might make a reasonable proxy, they aren't always cheaper though especially the resin ones. Also shop around on paints, tools and brushes, very often other brands are better value for money.
Finally you can play 40k with paper cut outs mounted on cardboard if you really want to save money.
NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote: @ Azrael(whatever). Yep, no probs with that first point, I am a bit squiffy at the moment so my share market is a bit off. However, how do you rebuke my argument with 'Profit!' when I said shareholders like dividends? Where do you think they come from? Fairy dust?
Erm..
What are dividends made of? Profits!
Perhaps have a coffee and then read my post again?
Yeah, don't bother with the GW tools and such. Some of the paints are fine but shop around a bit and you'll find better and cheaper tools in most cases. I really manage to get away with just using some, admittedly pretty nice, brushes I got for something like $6-8 at some random chinese dollar store.
Just need to have a good look at them to make sure they look decent and will work for what you need them for. So not stuff like brushes suited for water colours only or tougher bristles.
Glues, I haven't touched GW stuff for years as it seemed like watered down crap. It might be better now but I'm not going back from this to check it out.
Basing kits and stuff like that don't ever worry about except for maybe flocks and tufts you can get much, much cheaper from elsewhere.
GW wants about $25 here for 200, while I made an order with a seller on ebay who just does this stuff (gamer's grass or something like that) for the same I'm getting ~300 each of two different colours I was after. Flock and such check out any modelling stores if you have any nearby.
GW with its tools are kind of like apple where the price is marked up by the brand. Some of them are decent quality though, but a lot of them you'll find at least as good for a lot less.
Whittlesey40k wrote: I've ranted about GW prices before, but to be fair they're not that bad. You can't compare detailed multi-part minis to GI Joe. What gets me is the entry cost and the inconsistency. You and your buddy want to start 'hammering? You'll need the rules, and a codex each. That'll be £120 (not sure about dollars). That's a hell of an investment before even buying minis. Then the inconsistency - 10 tac marines are £25, so 5 assault marines are £12.50. Right? Wait, they have jump packs, so add £1 each. That's £17.50. Right? Nope, GW want £25 again. WTF? There's examples like that all over the place.
Oh, and if GW allow distributors to sell at up to 20% off, why don't they do that? They can obviously afford to sell at 20% off but decide to screw the people who show their local GW store some loyalty!!
You can compare detailed multi-part miniatures from GW to detailed multi-part miniatures from several other companies such as Perry Bros or Warlord.
When you do this it comes down to the fact that American Civil War infantry, Vikings, and Napoleonic Hussars did not adorn themselves with tentacles and mounds of skulls.
If you want a model with tentacles and skulls all over it, you will have to buy a GW model and accept whatever price GW sets.
Alternatively you can save 90% of the cost by not buying GW and buying a historical game instead.
Really? I don't know about historicals. Are you seriously saying that 10 historical figures is only £2.50 (i.e 10% the cost of a Tac squad). If so, sign me up!!
SolarCross wrote:Finally you can play 40k with paper cut outs mounted on cardboard if you really want to save money.
In the original Rogue Trader rules, there were tokens in the back to cut out and use to represent all the marines and orks you need to play Battle at the Farm.
I've always wanted to do a true gaming club for my area, where I get a group together and we all put in the money to purchase a set of "club" armies at maybe 500pts, and all the needed codices. Then, as people join, we add, maybe charge 5 bucks a month to come in and use our stuff. It would be a good way for everyone to afford to play these games. The reality of the expense and advert for such a thing though has caused me to never have it happen.
Another thing to consider is what else would you spend your money on if you weren't spending it on wargaming (GW or other game)?
Beer? £3 per pint, 4 pints a night + taxi home = £20 minimum for a few hours. All, literally, pissed away to boot.
Motocross? £3000+ for the bike, £300 for the leathers and helmet, + extas for maintenance, insurance etc...
Video games? £300 to 1000 for the platform, £20 to £40 per game. Do it all over again in a few years when a new gee-whizz system comes out.
Cinema? £10 per seat, £5 to £10 for snacks per person, for less than a couple of hours of enjoyment.
Golf? £1000 to £10,000 for kit, £10 to £100 per play.
Music concert? £20 to £60 per ticket + travel expenses, for a few hours of enjoyment.
You can go nuts and spend a fortune on wargaming (forgeworld, limited edition codices) but it can certainly be cheaper than other recreational activities too if you shop around and get crafty.
Daemonhost Cherubael wrote: My local games store owner tried to justify Game's workshop's business model, saying how there are certain models that have to be expensive in order to balance the game and not have everyone with really over powered units.
Either you've misunderstood, or he's confused.
It's not about limiting what everyone has, it's about how many of a given unit they can expect to sell. Character models are priced higher than equivalent-sized troop models because you generally won't buy as many of them... While you need multiple units of troops in your army, most players will only buy a single leader model.
GW's models have been priced that way since at least the early '90s.
And on top of all that, my friends now have to buy the citadel paint sets and brushes for yet again another $30 - $40.
No, they don't. There are plenty of cheaper alternatives out there for paint and brushes.
The reality is that a small plastic squad of 10 Space Marines should only have to cost $10 - $20, and then Tanks such as Rhino cost $25 - $35
The reality is that GW are free to price their product however they please. If you're not prepared to pay those prices, there are alternatives - buying second hand, using alternate (cheaper) models, buying through discounters... Or, of course, just buying what you can afford to start with and building up slowly as you can afford it. You don't actually have to buy an entire army all at once.
How is this any different from buying a plastic toy G.I. Joe tank at ToysRUs for $30? Or any sized action figure for $15 compared to a $90 Wraithlord? Companies like Matel and Hasbro sell toys around those price ranges and they seem to be holding pretty well.
Companies like Mattel and Hasbro benefit from economy of scale - that $30 GI Joe tank will sell exponentially more copies than a Space Marine predator, and so can be priced lower as a result. And as the large toy companies have such massive infrastructure, their production costs are also lower.
If my argument is flawed on how GW is practically keeping newcomers out with their expensive hobby, please point me out on details I got and enlighten me.
The thing is, you could make the same argument about just about anything. And while it's true that higher prices potentially keep some players out of the game, it's only part of the story. The other part is that GW, as a company, have to build a business strategy around what they think will make them the most money. The trick is finding the pricing point that balances out revenue against the effort required to get that revenue... If they can sell 10 models for a dollar each, or one model for $10, then (at least on paper) they're better off selling the one model than the ten as it takes less effort... and therefore less expense.
Ultimately, while it can be disappointing when you can't afford something that you want... that's life. You either wait for it until you can afford it, or you buy something else instead.
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Daemonhost Cherubael wrote: But isn't all just with the use of plastic and a mold to produce these models? So how is it any different for if china lets say were to do it?
The difference is that it's considerably cheaper to manufacture in China than in the UK, due to lower wages and lower overheads.
Whittlesey40k wrote: I've ranted about GW prices before, but to be fair they're not that bad. You can't compare detailed multi-part minis to GI Joe. What gets me is the entry cost and the inconsistency. You and your buddy want to start 'hammering? You'll need the rules, and a codex each. That'll be £120 (not sure about dollars). That's a hell of an investment before even buying minis. Then the inconsistency - 10 tac marines are £25, so 5 assault marines are £12.50. Right? Wait, they have jump packs, so add £1 each. That's £17.50. Right? Nope, GW want £25 again. WTF? There's examples like that all over the place.
Oh, and if GW allow distributors to sell at up to 20% off, why don't they do that? They can obviously afford to sell at 20% off but decide to screw the people who show their local GW store some loyalty!!
You can compare detailed multi-part miniatures from GW to detailed multi-part miniatures from several other companies such as Perry Bros or Warlord.
When you do this it comes down to the fact that American Civil War infantry, Vikings, and Napoleonic Hussars did not adorn themselves with tentacles and mounds of skulls.
If you want a model with tentacles and skulls all over it, you will have to buy a GW model and accept whatever price GW sets.
Alternatively you can save 90% of the cost by not buying GW and buying a historical game instead.
Really? I don't know about historicals. Are you seriously saying that 10 historical figures is only £2.50 (i.e 10% the cost of a Tac squad). If so, sign me up!!
SolarCross wrote:Finally you can play 40k with paper cut outs mounted on cardboard if you really want to save money.
In the original Rogue Trader rules, there were tokens in the back to cut out and use to represent all the marines and orks you need to play Battle at the Farm.
Typical price for 28mm plastic historical models is about 50p for a figure.
Another thing to consider is what else would you spend your money on if you weren't spending it on wargaming (GW or other game)?
Beer? £3 per pint, 4 pints a night + taxi home = £20 minimum for a few hours. All, literally, pissed away to boot.
Motocross? £3000+ for the bike, £300 for the leathers and helmet, + extas for maintenance, insurance etc...
Video games? £300 to 1000 for the platform, £20 to £40 per game. Do it all over again in a few years when a new gee-whizz system comes out.
Cinema? £10 per seat, £5 to £10 for snacks per person, for less than a couple of hours of enjoyment.
Golf? £1000 to £10,000 for kit, £10 to £100 per play.
Music concert? £20 to £60 per ticket + travel expenses, for a few hours of enjoyment.
You can go nuts and spend a fortune on wargaming (forgeworld, limited edition codices) but it can certainly be cheaper than other recreational activities too if you shop around and get crafty.
What about comparing warhammer to yachting? I know my yacht ran well into the 8 figure range, so in comparison, warhammer is practically pocket change.
Alternatively, compared to a sport like soccer or running, it can be as cheap as the cost of a dirt cheap pair of second hand runners and/or a dirt cheap ball. Less than $10 can get you hours daily of fun! Warhammer would be infinitely more expensive. Or how about the hobby of writing? Pen and paper, good to go. Less than a dollar.
Point is, comparisons to other hobbies isn't relevant when the issue at hand is that this one particular game in a hobby is overpriced. Comparisons to other wargames are more appropriate.
HCMistborn wrote: I've always wanted to do a true gaming club for my area, where I get a group together and we all put in the money to purchase a set of "club" armies at maybe 500pts, and all the needed codices. Then, as people join, we add, maybe charge 5 bucks a month to come in and use our stuff. It would be a good way for everyone to afford to play these games. The reality of the expense and advert for such a thing though has caused me to never have it happen.
The club expense should be to cover gaming tables, shared terrain, and a single GW starter game for the 2 basic "house" armies.. That's still quite a fair chunk of change, and you'll need labor to build the tables, get the terrain together, etc. I doubt $5/mos covers it.
Buying armies and codices for people to play with is a terrible idea, as they won't take care of them. They'll get broken and stolen and stuff. Instead, simply play smaller games of 500, 750, 1000 pts. With bigger battles as 2v2 or even 3v3, per Magic 2-headed giant / General..
Also, this presumes you are gaming out of someone's garage / basement. Having to rent space gets expensive in a hurry.
Ultimately, while it can be disappointing when you can't afford something that you want... that's life. You either wait for it until you can afford it, or you buy something else instead.
Exactly this. We aren't talking about a loaf of bread here.
HCMistborn wrote: I've always wanted to do a true gaming club for my area, where I get a group together and we all put in the money to purchase a set of "club" armies at maybe 500pts, and all the needed codices. Then, as people join, we add, maybe charge 5 bucks a month to come in and use our stuff. It would be a good way for everyone to afford to play these games. The reality of the expense and advert for such a thing though has caused me to never have it happen.
I thought about doing something similar though in a bit more of a commercial manner. I am planning on opening a LGS with wargaming tables (yeah ok I'm crazy), so I thought the store could have some painted up ready to play armies that the punters can rent for a game. Would suit newbies who are interested enough to try it but not yet commited enough to shell out the time and money on their own army. Might also suit veterans who want to try out a different force than the one(s) they already have.
Fair enough, and good on you for being the exception to how most people play Magic.
I would guess that 'most' people who play Magic play pretty much the same way I do. There are (supposedly) more then 10 million MtG players out there... and only a tiny proportion of those are registered for DCI.
It's easy to look at all of the 'visible' people playing a game, and assume that they represent the majority. In reality, most games have a much higher base of people playing casually at home than they do playing in stores or tournaments.
Which is important when you're looking at the cost of playing said game, as in general if you're not playing competitively, there's not actually any particular need to keep up with new releases, or build your collection at any particular rate... You can just buy enough to get started, and go from there as you can afford it. I started playing 40K with the second edition starter set... and for the first few years, the bulk of the additions to my collection came from scratchbuilds, and from an Oz mailorder store selling out their last stocks of the Space Crusade boardgame for $5 a copy.
What I had wasn't particularly competitive, but it got me by for quite a while until I could afford to add to it.
It's been said before (like a million times) but it's always worth a remind.
40k is not a hobby. It's a game.
"Wargaming" or "Modelling" are hobbies. 40k is just a mere game/brand among many others.
GW is certainly expensive. As I see it, too expensive for what they offer. But that's why I never buy from them directly. Most of my CSM army is made up from second-hand models I picked on eBay.
There are also many other manufacturers that offer models perfectly suited to play 40k, at a much lower price. Just have a look around and you'll find them.
If you feel you're being ripped off yet continue to pay their prices when the market is filled with cheaper alternatives, you deserve everything you may get.
@insaniak - I don't recall registering for the DCI way back when I played the most. But I was buying a box with each release to play the more competitive formats with my friends. I liked having interesting decks, and those required cards.
Had I just wanted to play Pauper magic with castoffs of commons and uncommons, that would have been a lot cheaper. But Pauper didn't even exist as a concept when I first started playing. .
People spend $1000s on drugs and that lasts what a few hours, minutes? A lot of people pay for sex. That is what 30 seconds of pleasure? Going out for dinner can be anywhere $20-$100 bucks, and you just crap it out. Same for drinking. People can put down $100-$200 at a bar and then just piss it out.
Then you have my wife, goes to bingo for what 2-3 hours and then most times looses. So who is actually spending a lot of money for their hobby? Once you buy GW you always have it.
This is probably the best response so far imo. This was somewhat enlightening!
I disagree with every person who justifies GW price gouging. I feel bad for you guys, because you are brain washed into mindless zombies to buy buy buy.
Nobody is ' justifying' GWs prices.... Because there is no need to. They're a company selling a product... They can choose to do so at whatever price they want.
I'm not a fan of their current prices... So I don't pay them.
HCMistborn wrote: I've always wanted to do a true gaming club for my area, where I get a group together and we all put in the money to purchase a set of "club" armies at maybe 500pts, and all the needed codices. Then, as people join, we add, maybe charge 5 bucks a month to come in and use our stuff. It would be a good way for everyone to afford to play these games. The reality of the expense and advert for such a thing though has caused me to never have it happen.
The club expense should be to cover gaming tables, shared terrain, and a single GW starter game for the 2 basic "house" armies.. That's still quite a fair chunk of change, and you'll need labor to build the tables, get the terrain together, etc. I doubt $5/mos covers it.
Buying armies and codices for people to play with is a terrible idea, as they won't take care of them. They'll get broken and stolen and stuff. Instead, simply play smaller games of 500, 750, 1000 pts. With bigger battles as 2v2 or even 3v3, per Magic 2-headed giant / General..
Also, this presumes you are gaming out of someone's garage / basement. Having to rent space gets expensive in a hurry.
Really? Magic is like $20 bucks a week, just to play FNM. Plus the box of cards you get with each new release, 3x per year. Plus chase rares.
I've been playing Magic for at least 5 or 6 years now... and so far it's cost me around $30, for a pre-built deck.
Fair enough, and good on you for being the exception to how most people play Magic.
Yeah, that was just me throwing out a random number, yo. I understand the reality of running a business and all the expenses that go into it, which is why I haven't attempted it. We have one game store near us that is run by a local dude, he is a cool guy and doesn't mind letting us use the space and offers the use of terrain. His cost is a lot smaller, due to him having inherited the property in a small town that is near enough big towns to drawn in about 20 of us, but he is in no way a millionaire. I think most of dream of this, but most of us realize it's not all fun and games(haha). You're right, it would have to cost more and follow strict rules, but I think it could be possible to have small armies and club codices, with the right people, it is when you get the wrong people involved that things get stolen and broken.
Fair enough, and good on you for being the exception to how most people play Magic.
I would guess that 'most' people who play Magic play pretty much the same way I do. There are (supposedly) more then 10 million MtG players out there... and only a tiny proportion of those are registered for DCI.
It's easy to look at all of the 'visible' people playing a game, and assume that they represent the majority. In reality, most games have a much higher base of people playing casually at home than they do playing in stores or tournaments.
Which is important when you're looking at the cost of playing said game, as in general if you're not playing competitively, there's not actually any particular need to keep up with new releases, or build your collection at any particular rate... You can just buy enough to get started, and go from there as you can afford it. I started playing 40K with the second edition starter set... and for the first few years, the bulk of the additions to my collection came from scratchbuilds, and from an Oz mailorder store selling out their last stocks of the Space Crusade boardgame for $5 a copy.
What I had wasn't particularly competitive, but it got me by for quite a while until I could afford to add to it.
While I agree with your points, when concerning most games, but not when dealing with MTG, at least not how it's played in the U.S.
Any, but the most casual, MTG Card Players play in weekly leagues. Those who don't play in leagues are just people who happen to own MTG cards and occasionally play with them.
I've played poker before, at home or with friends, and I own plenty of poker cards, but it doesn't make me a Poker Player.
Avid MTG players buy booster boxes upon their release and packs weekly as they play. Compared to when I played CCGs, 40K is better investment.
Any, but the most casual, MTG Card Players play in weekly leagues. Those who don't play in leagues are just people who happen to own MTG cards and occasionally play with them.
For my mind, those who don't play in leagues and just own cards and play occasionally would pretty much fit the definition of 'casual player'...
In all fairness, GW, like most hobbies are luxury goods they aren't making you money (unless you are a professional painter or batrep youtuber and even then you have to be very good/funny), it does suck that they are rather expensive but so many things that we enjoy now a days are like such as things solarclub said.
insaniak wrote: Nobody is ' justifying' GWs prices.... Because there is no need to. They're a company selling a product... They can choose to do so at whatever price they want.
I'm not a fan of their current prices... So I don't pay them.
I definitely agree with insaniak on this. The only way GW will adjust prices is by people not buying product. We've seen their pricing bouncing all over the place as they try to find those sweet spots for maximum charging. Value factors pretty heavily into whether or not I'll buy GW products nowadays. Sometimes they're great (like Betrayal at Calth), sometimes they're fething absurd (like purchasing the individual components of Betrayal at Calth!).
With the increase in the cost of the 40k experience, I believe we'll see smaller numbers of players, and people branch out to games that require less investment. If that works for GW- if they're able to maintain their desired profits with less customers- more power to them. However, if they ever want to reach the level of penetrance they had a decade ago, I think the pricing/game will have to change dramatically.
When I was 15 I put my Warhammer stuff away and started playing rock music. That's how I learned what truly constitutes an expensive hobby. Entry price is $300 for a toy electric guitar from China or Indonesia, $1200 for a guitar that actually stays in tune long enough to play an entire song, at least $500 for an amp that's loud enough to compete with a drum kit. Then you spend $60 to $200 on gas money for each gig, very rarely getting paid $50 or so in return. Meanwhile you're paying to replace your strings and every other little thing that gets broken, lost, left behind or stolen. Some of my friends who still do this are homeless. They live on the road and have dedicated their lives entirely to their art. They travel hundreds of miles every week in order to play empty coffeehouses and empty house party basements. When I had a recording studio I would pay $800 for a single microphone and $1500 for a box that does nothing but make the microphone sound a little bit better. You also have to pay for a place where you can record and rehearse without getting a visit from the police.
When people display astonishment at how much you spend on your hobby, you have to realize that there's some cognitive dissonance at work. They don't realize that their hobbies are in fact hobbies. They think that the activities you pay money for (as opposed to getting paid) are actually important.
Several people drawing false equivalencies with other pastimes.
Sure, powerboat racing is much more expensive than GW, but then sitting in silence is considerably cheaper.
As has already been stated, the cost is irrelevant, it's the perceived value that's important, and if people aren't getting a perceived return in enjoyment from the money invested, that's when GW have a problem.
Azreal13 wrote: Several people drawing false equivalencies with other pastimes.
Sure, powerboat racing is much more expensive than GW, but then sitting in silence is considerably cheaper.
As has already been stated, the cost is irrelevant, it's the perceived value that's important, and if people aren't getting a perceived return in enjoyment from the money invested, that's when GW have a problem.
Well, okay but even if you look at plebian poor man's hobbies like boozing and smoking instead of something fancy like powerboat racing, it isn't all that expensive. I spend about £15 a week on rolling tobacco which is about £800 a year and that is smoking on the cheap.. If I bought a GW box at £30 every month instead it would only cost me £360 a year.
As for perceived value well that varies from one person to the next, I would like it to be cheaper even though so far I have gotten everything from ebay on the cheap, but I really love this hobby, it ticks all the boxes for me so I am not put off. YMMV as always.
As has already been stated, the cost is irrelevant, it's the perceived value that's important, and if people aren't getting a perceived return in enjoyment from the money invested, that's when GW have a problem.
Nobody cares what "has already been stated". You don't own the thread. I didn't even read your earlier posts, so I don't care what you said.
The cost is not "irrelevant". We're talking about it. It's what the thread is about. This is a message board where random strangers congregate to contribute their two cents. Your two cents are worth no more than anybody else's, so don't act like you're in charge of the discussion. If you choose to miss my point, that's your loss.
Clearly you missed the memo where Azreal does, in fact, own this particular thread. I'll have to put you on the dist list for all future memo's relating to thread ownership.
As has already been stated, the cost is irrelevant, it's the perceived value that's important, and if people aren't getting a perceived return in enjoyment from the money invested, that's when GW have a problem.
Nobody cares what "has already been stated". You don't own the thread. I didn't even read your earlier posts, so I don't care what you said.
The cost is not "irrelevant". We're talking about it. It's what the thread is about. This is a message board where random strangers congregate to contribute their two cents. Your two cents are worth no more than anybody else's, so don't act like you're in charge of the discussion. If you choose to miss my point, that's your loss.
If I were replying directly to you, I'd have quoted you. You just happened to be the most recent, and it hadn't been me that stated that, at least not in this thread. You're right that this is a discussion, we're talking about this subject, and if you jump directly into discussions in real life with no respect for what's already been said you must really piss people off.
Cost is irrelevant, on the assumption that you have enough money to do any given activity, then it's whether the expenditure is worth what you get out of it that counts. One can be very wealthy and still see the cost of something and think "£X for that? No fething way." One's ability to pay for something is independent from one's desire to buy it.
But good job in jumping down someone's throat even when you've not read anything they may have said, as well as cropping the quote so the bit where I made it clear I was making a general point is missing so you can take it personally, good form!
People who enjoy building and painting models can get hours of enjoyment out of each model, BEFORE it ever hits a gaming table.
Spoiler:
I just grabbed a Battle for Vedros Box set. Spent $42 for 28 models. Each night I've spent 3-4 hours, while watching Netflix, customizing a single Ork Meganob model.
There are 15 Orks in the box I'll end up working on, spending something like 50+ hours building and converting. Not even considering the Marine Models, we are talking 50+ hours of entertainment for $42. Some day, I might actually get around to painting and fielding them as well, for additional value.
For someone who's just looking at how much a shiny new 2000 point army will cost, as their sole consideration, GW's pricing likely seems insane.
Turnip Jedi wrote: I think a lot of it comes down to perceived 'value'...
Also as others have mentioned GW is not the be all and end all of 'hobby', many other games have a much lower buy in, I'm fairly sure you could get a viable starting force in both Warmahordes or X-Wing for around the £100 mark, something you'd struggle with for 40k, same applies to paint, brushes etc, just because it's GW branded it doesn't make it magically superior, there is a whole Internet out there why not try using it.
Thing is, if you want to play GW, other games are not really an option then. Also, I wouldn't say PP is cheaper. As you say, "perceived value". For me PP minis are not worth it since I rather pay a bit more and have an easier time to put together the mini and paint it. I find I have a harder time with PP minis crap plastic and metal and take those mold lines off, GW is so much easier to do. Yes PP has some great minis, but also have some horrible minis as well. So is it really worth saving that $10-$30 a mini when I get more aggravated trying to put the dang thing together? I ruined my Thrash and spent hours trying to put it together and I still can't do it. So yeah, the savings are not worth it at all.
Really? Magic is like $20 bucks a week, just to play FNM. Plus the box of cards you get with each new release, 3x per year. Plus chase rares.
Again "perceived value" For a lot of people that is cheap and worth it. For you it might not be worth it and seem like a lot of money.
It's like going to a movie and a dinner where it can cost you a $100 a nite. You had your fun, but buying something like minis that you have to buy paint for and cut off a sprue and put together just doesn't seem worth it when there are other minis or toys already made ready to go and far cheaper.
Perceived value is one thing but at the end of the day, when you told someone you spent 35 bucks on a 2-inch tall plastic figurine that does nothing else, people will be giving you funny looks.
It's especially worse if you have a local card game scene, and I'm not just talking about MTG. Three Weeks ago I spent 32 bucks on a box of Netrunner. Between deckbuilding, playing, and looking up strategies that one box of cards has already made me sunk something like 60 hours into it.
When I played Raw Deal, I dropped about $300 every 6 months on a box of Boosters and Starters, then $5-10 every week on packs, plus 20-$50 a month on Ebay buying up rares for deck building, not to mention $50 or so on the special edition sets that came out once or twice a year. While I was playing weekly, it didn't seem all that bad. After a few years the game died out, and I'm left with thousands of dollars spent on pieces of paper, with no resale value.
Grief wrote:I disagree with every person who justifies GW price gouging. I feel bad for you guys, because you are brain washed into mindless zombies to buy buy buy.
Who says we are justifying GW price gouging. All we are saying is what one person finds expensive another persons doesn't. Something like one mans garbage is another treasure.
I am curious though, if you disagree where are you explanations with what you are disagreeing with? I don't see what you disagree with. So now because people have a different opinion you are resulting to name calling then eh?
Azreal13 wrote:As has already been stated, the cost is irrelevant, it's the perceived value that's important, and if people aren't getting a perceived return in enjoyment from the money invested, that's when GW have a problem.
That is so true.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Perceived value is one thing but at the end of the day, when you told someone you spent 35 bucks on a 2-inch tall plastic figurine that does nothing else, people will be giving you funny looks.
Sorry I believe you are wrong. Who cares what other people think or give us funny looks. It does come down perceived value. What I find expensive, other people find it worth it. Some people can drop $500 on one spin on roulette table and walk away when they loose. This person was just dressed like a blue collar worker, so not made of money. So what I thought was crazy, was just normal for him. Are you going to laugh at him or mock him? Do you think he will care? Just like I don't care if I buy a GW product and someone gives me a funny look. Just like I won't give someone a funny look for buying a GW product that I don't find worth it.
It's the whole "it's my money and I don't care" mentality that enables GW's price gouging. Again, people do give you funny looks for spending 35 on a 2 inch plastic figure, because it is excessively expensive. You wouldn't mock the guy for dropping 500 on a roulette table openly but you will think it was a poor choice of money. I know a guy who blows 500 a week on bullets for his shooting club (he has several really expensive guns. All legal mind you) and even he thinks my hobby is excessive (mind you, he also has no illusions about his hobby. He just thinks we both made bad choices). As my old teacher said, if you feel the need to justify it, then there's already something inherently wrong.
I personally make no attempt at hiding the fact that this is an excessively expensive hobby for me, which is why I do wish things will change. Not just so it would hurt less on my wallet, but also to get more friends playing. Currently the only reason I can't get more friends into it is cost because, again, for 32 bucks a person we can all get netrunner and play together. Or 25 bucks for Catan. If I can get a 2000 point army for even just 100 bucks, I'd get a lot more converts to this hobby.
I used 2000 points because that was how much they were actually expecting when I showed them the starter set, cuz that's all the games they hear about from me.
When I tell them the ACTUAL amount needed for a 2000 point army and try to break it down for them into 500 point chunks, that's when they run for the hills. For them it's literally seeing the future addiction laid out before their eyes. it doesn't help that most of them are MTG players, so they know how deep that rabbit hole goes.
EDIT: Also 85 (actually 100 in canada) bucks is a pretty high bar considering two of those sets are needed minimum for two people to play, and it's not always the models my friends want. One wants to do Aspect Warriors and the other one wants to run Kans and Gobbos. Compared to MTG Pauper decks, which are at most 40 per deck, and we get to choose what we want to go into it. Or just one of the other board games.
For 40k the scale and breadth of options is really appealing, you wont find a game that can meet the same perks. But the game design is not bad, but a bit dated at this point.
Sure the models are good quality, but at the end of the day they are marked up at nearly the same percent as printer ink.
I dont mind paying for a quality hobby, I play other mini games, but out of all of them GW is the most expensive on an average per model basis, rules, and it multiplies significantly because of the scale.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: I used 2000 points because that was how much they were actually expecting when I showed them the starter set, cuz that's all the games they hear about from me.
Yes, that was my point. If you don't make them expect 2000 points to be the standard, they will be less likely to think they need 2000 points.
. Compared to MTG Pauper decks, which are at most 40 per deck, and we get to choose what we want to go into it. Or just one of the other board games.
Which, again, is irrelevant unless you're actually looking at MtG or boardgames as an alternative.
Those Alternatives are not irrelevant when they're the primary obstacles to get people into the game. Again a bare minimum 500 point playable force averages out to about 100 canadian. Whenever I try to get someone to play this, I gotta somehow justify them jumping down this rabbit hole of high expense instead of me dropping a one-time fee of about 30 bucks on something else.
So far I've only been successful twice (out of the hundred or so times I've tried). First one was because he ended up agreeing to playing with my models (and thus didn't actually need to spend money himself) and the second one was because she landed a high-paying job with excessive amounts of MONAY~! And even that didn't take; the first one couldn't make consistent trips out and didn't like how he couldn't build the army while the second one just...sorta got distracted by something else (netrunner. There's a reason I keep mentioning this).
As has already been stated, the cost is irrelevant, it's the perceived value that's important, and if people aren't getting a perceived return in enjoyment from the money invested, that's when GW have a problem.
Nobody cares what "has already been stated". You don't own the thread. I didn't even read your earlier posts, so I don't care what you said.
The cost is not "irrelevant". We're talking about it. It's what the thread is about. This is a message board where random strangers congregate to contribute their two cents. Your two cents are worth no more than anybody else's, so don't act like you're in charge of the discussion. If you choose to miss my point, that's your loss.
Hi new guy, welcome to Dakka Dakka.
I remember when my father bought me my first boat, it was only the $80,000 Bayliner, I was so mad. I knew all the other guys at the country club would make fun of me, so I told my Father that he would HAVE to return it and buy me the $180,000 Bayliner or everyone there would think he was a cheap old man especially since he only got me the lotus instead of the lambo....
See I can jump into a thread a post a asinine comment also that has no relation to the OP..... Hi Welcome ( waits for the pee pee smack by the mods, but soooo worth it )
How is this any different from buying a plastic toy G.I. Joe tank at ToysRUs for $30? Or any sized action figure for $15 compared to a $90 Wraithlord? Companies like Matel and Hasbro sell toys around those price ranges and they seem to be holding pretty well.
At the end of the day, it's all just an overpriced miniatures hobby with breakable plastic held together by crazy glue. (Great fluff though, it's up there with J.R.R Tolkien)
If my argument is flawed on how GW is practically keeping newcomers out with their expensive hobby, please point me out on details I got and enlighten me.
While I agree that price is too high few counter things to consider:
a) are the matel and hasbro kits as detailed? Design costs as well
b) until GW can sell in quantities matel and hasbro sells they cannot sell for same price. The more you sell the cheaper you can sell. If they would cut the prices to same level now do you think they would instantly sell equally many? This is niche hobby which doesn't have equally wide potential as matel and hasbro has...Ergo it can never compete with price with them.
Price is too high yes but expecting them to sell for same price as matel and hasbro is deluding yourself. Business realities kicks in. It costs them more than matel/hasbro(economics of scale) so they need to price them higher up.
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adamsouza wrote: GW models aren't priced "pay to win" or "pay more to balance the game" they are priced around expected sales upon release verses the cost of the production (molds/packaing/shipping/storage).
Clampacked generals for $30 aren't priced that way because they are soo bad ass they need to priced $30 to keep you from buying many of them, they are priced that way because it's expected you'll only buy 1, or 2, for your army. The cost of production has to be spread out through a significantly smaller amount of sales to recoup the investment.
The fact that's it's $.15 a model worth of plastic means little. It's the $10,000 for the steel mold that matters.
A Tactical Squad from a $50,000 mold will outsell a clampack HQ 10 to 1, bringing the price per model significantly down, even though it cost significantly more to produce to mold.
This too.
The "plastic for everything" decision was deathblow for reasonable priced characters. Right material for the right job. GW forgot that rule.
Don Savik wrote: A plastic toy that you can buy at toys R us is not even close to the same quality and durability as a GW plastic kit. Same with action figures/wraithlord. Its different because one is supposed to withstand the brunt force of children playing while the other is supposed to be a modeling display piece that lasts forever (theoretically).
Yes I agree that Warhammer is expensive. Buuuuuut I don't believe that certain models have to be expensive to balance them. Both the Wraithknight and the Gorkanaut are like 110 dollars, so that point is moot. Your game store owner is dumb. Yes 5 models for 50 is silly but that's pretty much been their standard.
Get a start collecting box, or play their board games which come with miniatures, or play a small game of AoS. Its really about how much you want to invest. Did I put off buying Dark Souls 3 to buy Thunderwolf Cavalry? Yes, because I wanted it. If you can't keep up with multiple expensive things than don't. As much as I want cheaper models the reality is its not happening at the moment.
And MTG cheaper? hehhhehehheheh......that depends on if you want to lose or not. A typical modern deck runs from 200-500 dollars. And don't tell me about building a budget deck, because I have a budget legacy deck: still 135 dollars.
And here I always thought 'Budget Legacy Deck' was an oxymoron.
I'm in full agreement with you about Magic being expensive but I play modern and cough up maybe $500 a year on Magic cards, that's four pre-releases and a fat pack on order for each one. I trade and sell to get what I want and but still manage to have a fairly competitive self-designed burn deck, several variants on an Izzet land base, theft, human tribal and dragon tribal and a weird paradise variant. Each of these decks is carrying around $500 worth of cards but because there is a collecting, trading and purchasing culture in MTG I've never had to cough up money to get cards that I want but didn't draw and being a modern player rather than a standard player I can afford to be patient. 40k doesn't have that. There is no randomness to what you buy unless you trust GW there isn't really such a thing as 'rare' or 'limited' models *Cough Krom Dragongaze cough*, people getting out of the hobby seem to believe that their 2nd hand models are worth retail and the market is small because each army is a market in its own right. Magic is expensive but it's still so much easier to get into than 40k.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: It's the whole "it's my money and I don't care" mentality that enables GW's price gouging.
GW is not price gouging. Price gouging refers to taking advantage of temporary scarcity to significantly increase the price on a must-buy item. For example, selling bottled water at 10x the normal price after a natural disaster knocks out the water supply is price gouging. When there's no water available from any other source people have to pay whatever you demand because the alternative is death. It is NOT price gouging to sell an item at a higher cost than some of your customers want to pay for it, or to sell an item at a price that some people think is "unfair". And given the fact that GW sells toys, which are clearly luxury products and not an item you could ever be forced to buy regardless of the price, it is impossible for them to be guilty of price gouging.
Daemonhost Cherubael wrote: [b][u] At the end of the day, it's all just an overpriced miniatures hobby with breakable plastic held together by crazy glue. (Great fluff though, it's up there with J.R.R Tolkien)
That perfectly sums it up. And we all love it and are willing to spend literally thousands of dollars on it, while also cursing the GW policies. That's what it means to be a fan, I guess.
MTG is incredibly expensive. I'd love to play Legacy, but with dual lands upwards of £250 (*each*)... not happening.
Even standard is expensive (I've just dropped ~£100 on singles and £150 on two boxes of the new set. These sets are released every 3-4 months. This might give me a base but it's unlikely to give me coverage for 2-3 decks).
Brexit didn't help... used to buy everything from the states via ebay, but with the pound shafted versus the dollar, even that's becoming pointless.
Back to 40K though: buy second hand on ebay. Strip and repaint. Convert or proxy. Build up an army slowly.
The constant whining on these forums is becoming offputting...
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: f I can get a 2000 point army for even just 100 bucks, I'd get a lot more converts to this hobby.
You might also get more converts if you don't make them think they need a 2000point force in order to play.
$85 gets you a starter force. It's not huge, and it doesnt have all the fancy stuff... But it's enough to start playing the game.
Yeah but £25 gets you the x-wing starter, that's a much smaller risk your taking if you don't know if you'll even enjoy the game.
Recently I got into fow it cost me £63 for an American force plus £7 for the relevant book and I was ready to play.
If I wanted to try kow I could get a 70+ model army for £100.
GW's pricing is what's driving people away and keeping others from starting, it's not the only game in time anymore and frankly it's not even the best, you can't demand quality prices when your not delivering
Yeah but £25 gets you the x-wing starter, that's a much smaller risk your taking if you don't know if you'll even enjoy the game.
It's a smaller risk if what you're looking for is a space fighter combat game. You're going to be somewhat disappointed with it if you wanted squad-based land warfare...
While I get that some people just like games, and don't much care what they're actually about, to a lot of players this matters. I've met quite a few gamers over the years, including myself, who stuck with 40k despite not being entirely happy with the prices of the minis and/or the state of the rules simply because, while there are indeed plenty of other games out there these days, there are none that are actually like 40K.
For gamers wanting a 28mm scifi skirmish game that scales up to large battles with warmachines and masses of infantry, pointing out that they can get a bunch of 10mm WWII minis for less cash isn't going to float a lot of beans.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: f I can get a 2000 point army for even just 100 bucks, I'd get a lot more converts to this hobby.
You might also get more converts if you don't make them think they need a 2000point force in order to play.
$85 gets you a starter force. It's not huge, and it doesnt have all the fancy stuff... But it's enough to start playing the game.
Yeah but £25 gets you the x-wing starter, that's a much smaller risk your taking if you don't know if you'll even enjoy the game.
Recently I got into fow it cost me £63 for an American force plus £7 for the relevant book and I was ready to play.
If I wanted to try kow I could get a 70+ model army for £100.
GW's pricing is what's driving people away and keeping others from starting, it's not the only game in time anymore and frankly it's not even the best, you can't demand quality prices when your not delivering
Well from a reseller you could get the Dark Vengence boxset for £50. That gives you all you need to play, including 2 different armies, 50 models. That doesn't seem to be a world apart from X-wing, FoW or KoW.
Yeah but £25 gets you the x-wing starter, that's a much smaller risk your taking if you don't know if you'll even enjoy the game.
It's a smaller risk if what you're looking for is a space fighter combat game. You're going to be somewhat disappointed with it if you wanted squad-based land warfare...
Yes but for a lot of "noobs" or non-nerds, that is a non-existing distinction. Most non-nerds (i.e. people who are not already heavily invested - fluff-wise or financially) will know the mainstream geek tropes, like Star Wars or Star Trek, but nothing else.
If those people would like to start playing a miniature game, then in 7 of 10 cases they do it because one of their friends is already invested or because they like the looks of particular miniatures / set ups. Some more will come to WHFB/WH40K because of the video games.
And for all those, the price is a killer argument, especially when a fallback to something cheap and instantly recognizable, such as X-Wing/Star Wars or historicals, is possible.
Worst case, they turn away from tabletop games for good.
The pricing on models can be debated, but does anyone think that the price of the rules and codices is at all reasonable? Models can at least be used every edition of the game... but the rules expire. It wasn't so bad when each codex was $20 USD but now it's $60+?
I don't play that often, but when I come back to the game after a long break, I have to spend $150 just for the rules for my army and the game in order to be 'current'. Nevermind new wargear or models.
At least with magic you can play a draft tournament for $20 and still end the day with some new cards. Buying a new set of rules doesn't give me any new value to my collection since those rules will expire in 1 to 2 years. It's just an entry fee.
Zimko wrote: The pricing on models can be debated, but does anyone think that the price of the rules and codices is at all reasonable? Models can at least be used every edition of the game... but the rules expire. It wasn't so bad when each codex was $20 USD but now it's $60+?
I don't play that often, but when I come back to the game after a long break, I have to spend $150 just for the rules for my army and the game in order to be 'current'. Nevermind new wargear or models.
At least with magic you can play a draft tournament for $20 and still end the day with some new cards. Buying a new set of rules doesn't give me any new value to my collection since those rules will expire in 1 to 2 years. It's just an entry fee.
It could be that 40k is becoming more or less finalised and so rules & codices will not be made obsolete so much as supplemented. You can see this with how the Tau codex released after 7th did not invalidate the Tau codex released in 6th. The 6th ed Tau book remains a current rules legal book. I'm guessing that the switch from cheap but flimsy softbacks to more expensive long lasting hardbacks is more or less justified by this new approach.
This is speculation but I would hazard a guess that if and when 8th ed hits, it will just be 7th ed rules, + errata + FAQs + some supplementary material and it won't invalidate at all your 7th ed book or mean you have to buy it to stay current.
BrianDavion wrote: regarding 40k pricing it's worth noting that their minis aren't nesscarily HORRIFICLY priced, slightly more expensive sure but also better quality in most cases. the problem is that you also need so many minis to play the game. compare 40k to X-wing. an X-wing mini is actually not a great deal on a "mini to mini" cost (each x-wing mini is 15 bucks) BUT, with X-wing games only being about 100 points, the largest army you're looking at is maybe 10 models. meanwhile for 40k 10 models is your starting point.
that's 40ks biggest problem, scale. and honestly we're just as much the problem as GW. if people regularly played smaller games, maybe 750 points, it would reduce the cost of entry to new players. granted GW does enchourage the larger scale stuff, so it's hardly JUST OUR FAULT. but.. the scale of game play, is certainly a big contributing factor
I have to agree with every word you wrote, and say that this is largely why I have been buying and playing much more X-wing than 40k this year.
If I drop $20 on something like a TIE Punisher, I get just one lousy model, and the sculpting is not as crisp or perfect as a GW model. But, it's pretty good, and more importantly, when I put it on the table it will be a large, important model that completely changes the way my "army" plays. And, it came with its own rules, so I can mod it out and send it out with different pilots to suit my plans. And, I can play it the day I bought it.
In contrast, if I buy a $50 Leman Russ I get a much larger, high quality model. And the first thing I think, after building it for a month, is that it's of little use without two more to fill out a squadron, or at least one to make an HQ unit, and it needs six or seven boxes of guard to go with it to make an army...
So, 40k is a grander, more amazing game when done up right. But, in terms of recruiting friends and actually playing games, its a heap easier to say "You need between two to five of these relatively cheap blister packs, and we can play this afternoon."
In contrast, if I buy a $50 Leman Russ I get a much larger, high quality model. And the first thing I think, after building it for a month, is that it's of little use without two more to fill out a squadron, or at least one to make an HQ unit, and it needs six or seven boxes of guard to go with it to make an army...
I don't know, a single Leman Russ is more than a little use in a 500pt game, and bit of a monster in a 250pt game. I think part of the reason why people are freaking out over the cost of gaming in 40k is that they are just assuming that because there are like a dozen different factions and each faction has dozens of different units each with a great variety of upgrades and that large combinations get substantial game bonuses that you have to buy it all to play. Yeah if you have 7 leman Russes you get some bonus or another in some formation but you don't have to play on that scale, you can play 40k with just one russ and a squad or two. You have the rest of your life to build up to the big scale armies, why not start small to start with?
The good thing about 40k is that there is always room to grow. This is what draws me to 40k over Xwing, either can be played on small scale with just a few models but I think with only like 3 factions and a dozen different ships, X-wing is quite limited in how far you can take it. After a few years you have most all the ships, the game play will get samey, and have nowhere else to go with it.
As people have already said there are many alternatives, a big one that comes to mind is bolt action, pretty popular and much cheaper.
Besides, with all hobbies, is ALWAYS expensive to get into, thats not going to change.
There are ways to get the models much cheeper, TWS sells GW stuff for 20% off. All things considering, GW is getting much better with prices, still really high, but getting better.
SolarCross wrote: This is speculation but I would hazard a guess that if and when 8th ed hits, it will just be 7th ed rules, + errata + FAQs + some supplementary material and it won't invalidate at all your 7th ed book or mean you have to buy it to stay current.
You know exact same idea was tossed around before 7th ed came around...And we all know how that ended up.
Word is Tau was going to get beefier update but then 8th ed came around quickened because 7th ed was deemed of not a success. So I wouldn't count too much to it. GW wants to sell stuff and stuff sells most when they are brand new. If they release new book it generates instant income. When not they sell in small streams that are annoyance to warehouses.
Real News wrote: To be honest I don't think GW cares about attracting new players. They're kept afloat by the people who spend $5000 a year or more on miniatures. Some people collect every army and buy every kit that GW produces. When a new codex comes out and the power creeps forward, the competitive players just buy a new army from whatever faction is GW's flavour of the week. No point in playing a game that you can't win, after all.
Meanwhile forgeworld provides a way for the most "dedicated" fans to soar above the rest of us peasants. Now they have their own 40k with better minis and better rules, and it just happens to require three or four times as many models. So the 30K elites look down on us from their ivory towers and snicker while we struggle with our broken game and its ever-shifting, perpetually obsolete ruleset.
Luckily fans have run out of excuses to continue "supporting" GW, and Chinese pirates are taking full advantage of the situation.
As far as the prices, you got it right before your eyes. As far as the behavor, I just can't figure out how they urned this way.
But actually, i pesonnally own like 75% of my army from second hand market and that's all fine for much cheaper.
Otherwise, you can get on to other games and companies: many fabulous other games exist and prove to be by far less costy.
Hopefully, I read they were little by little gnawed by smaller but at under all aspects better companies. Just hope those aren't going to end up the same way. But it's up to us then to force the decrease in prices. Too expensive? Ok, I make turn away and look somewhere else. If every guy made this way, they'd to react so as not to go bankrupt. And that's where the kind of guy Real news spoke about becomes a pain: they allow GW to strive on this track.
Zimko wrote: At least with magic you can play a draft tournament for $20 and still end the day with some new cards.
This creates a side decision, of whether you are going to money draft to keep a chase rare that passes, or if you're going to power draft to win the event.
Thing is we know the last three years have seen a 14% drop in model sales people very clearly are buying less GW and more from someone else.
Roundtree got lucky this year because total war was a massive smash hit but he's not going to have royalties like that to plug the gaps every quarter.
It's catch 22 he needs to drop prices and increase sales volume while growing his customer base but if he does profits will drop in the short term decimating his share price, damned either way.
The problem is GW just focuses on selling new models which cost money to develop.And feeds the 'churn and burn' ethos of the company Chairman.
Where as if they focused on rules quality, to add value to the existing minatures.
They could increase sales volumes and reduce overheads , and follow the steady expansion of other companies in the same market.
Lanrak wrote: The problem is GW just focuses on selling new models which cost money to develop.And feeds the 'churn and burn' ethos of the company Chairman.
Where as if they focused on rules quality, to add value to the existing minatures.
They could increase sales volumes and reduce overheads , and follow the steady expansion of other companies in the same market.
The rules and gameplay are a major issue. When you ask for premium dollars for your kits and rules, but put out an inconsistent mess between rubbish and gold, in a mess of codex, pdf, white dwarf, kit exclusive, expansion books, you will turn off any new player from even wanting to attempt to try the game.
Because it takes a serious amount of effort and research to even determine wtf you need to even play correctly.
I imagine gw is trying to fix that with 8th, but we will see.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:It's the whole "it's my money and I don't care" mentality that enables GW's price gouging. Again, people do give you funny looks for spending 35 on a 2 inch plastic figure, because it is excessively expensive.
DUDE. We are grown men playing with plastic toy soldiers. I think that is why we are would get funny looks from people. Thing is I haven't got any funny looks for spending $35 on a 2 inch plastic figure because it's expensive. The funny I look I got from my parents when they were alive was because their "boy" is a man now playing with plastic toy soldiers still. Not the price.
You wouldn't mock the guy for dropping 500 on a roulette table openly but you will think it was a poor choice of money. I know a guy who blows 500 a week on bullets for his shooting club (he has several really expensive guns. All legal mind you) and even he thinks my hobby is excessive (mind you, he also has no illusions about his hobby. He just thinks we both made bad choices).
Again dude. Those are MANLY things. That is why people will not get funny looks. No matter how much they spend. We are geeks and nerds playing with little toys. It doesn't matter the cost. It can be GW toys or Dollar store toy soldiers. WE ARE PLAYING WITH TOY SOLDIERS. That is why we get funny looks. Again, I don't get them.
As my old teacher said, if you feel the need to justify it, then there's already something inherently wrong.
I am not justifying anything. It seems you are. I am a geek. I am not smart enough to be a nerd, not cool enough for people to hang around me. Maybe not a geek but a dork then. I don't care what I am labeled. Still I don't care what people think when I buy my plastic toy soldiers. It doesn't bother me, and I don't have to justify anything.
I personally make no attempt at hiding the fact that this is an excessively expensive hobby for me, which is why I do wish things will change. Not just so it would hurt less on my wallet, but also to get more friends playing. Currently the only reason I can't get more friends into it is cost because, again, for 32 bucks a person we can all get netrunner and play together. Or 25 bucks for Catan. If I can get a 2000 point army for even just 100 bucks, I'd get a lot more converts to this hobby.
I agree. Yes it's expensive for us. Yes we would wish it was cheaper so other can get into it. It sucks it's not. What I don't understand is, where are you getting this "funny looks" thing? While you make no attempt at hiding that it's expensive, there is something why you feel you have to hide it.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: It's the whole "it's my money and I don't care" mentality that enables GW's price gouging.
GW is not price gouging. Price gouging refers to taking advantage of temporary scarcity to significantly increase the price on a must-buy item. For example, selling bottled water at 10x the normal price after a natural disaster knocks out the water supply is price gouging. When there's no water available from any other source people have to pay whatever you demand because the alternative is death. It is NOT price gouging to sell an item at a higher cost than some of your customers want to pay for it, or to sell an item at a price that some people think is "unfair". And given the fact that GW sells toys, which are clearly luxury products and not an item you could ever be forced to buy regardless of the price, it is impossible for them to be guilty of price gouging.
So raising the price because the Pound and American Dollar was stronger than the Canadian dollar was weak, then proceed to "forget" about that price hike literally a year down the road because the Pound went down again just to keep charging the higher prices is not "gouging"? Same goes for Australian and New Zealand prices. Not to mention if you want to play GW's game, you pretty much have to use GW models. We get enough people here complaining about proxies as is. I never see DnD players get so uppidy about which orcs and dragons you use, but heavens forbid you use a third party Forge World Lookalike in a 30k game.
Also Davor, the moment you started challenging my manhood and level of nerdness in a discussion about pricing and barrier of entry is when there can be no more meaningful dialogue.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: So raising the price because the Pound and American Dollar was stronger than the Canadian dollar was weak, then proceed to "forget" about that price hike literally a year down the road because the Pound went down again just to keep charging the higher prices is not "gouging"? Same goes for Australian and New Zealand prices. Not to mention if you want to play GW's game, you pretty much have to use GW models. We get enough people here complaining about proxies as is. I never see DnD players get so uppidy about which orcs and dragons you use, but heavens forbid you use a third party Forge World Lookalike in a 30k game.
No it's not gouging. You don't need to buy GW models(yes not even to play GW games) so they aren't raising price on what you MUST buy. Ergo not gouging.
They are too expensive, you can simply buy something else. And yes still be able to play GW games. Well except GW stores but who cares. Those aren't only places you can play.
Then I will gleefully use my metal 20 dollar dreadnoughts as contemptors and my coffee tin as a Spartan and scoff at anyone who thinks I should get forge world models for my 30k army for not understanding what "gouge" means
But seriously, you can see the gouging because similar models within GW's own range have different values. Compare a vanilla Dreadnought to a Venerable Dreadnought to a Space Wolves Dreadnought. Or the various flavours of space marine characters.
And if anyone says "it's ok because no one uses dreadnoughts!" then there's really no more hope for this hobby.
Nothing wrong with GW prices, I wish they were cheaper but their product so they pick the price. Can't afford it? Think it os not worth it then dont do it.
I like 3d printers but the quailty for the price is not worth it for me so moving on.
GW's prices are what they are, whether they make sense or are "fair" or not. Buy or not, those are the choices. I don't think anybody needs to be upset over it.
In my case, yes, I overbought and have considerably more than a I "need", but still less than I want. Yes, I am (very!) slowly working through my backlog. I blame nobody but myself for those decisions.
JohnHwangDD wrote: GW's prices are what they are, whether they make sense or are "fair" or not. Buy or not, those are the choices. I don't think anybody needs to be upset over it.
In my case, yes, I overbought and have considerably more than a I "need", but still less than I want. Yes, I am (very!) slowly working through my backlog. I blame nobody but myself for those decisions.
Many of the arguemwnts here point towards a healthy demand, but the supply becoming very limited because of the high prices. If GW did market research they might discover they are pricing themselves out of the market, it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong, these are toy soldiers after all.
The problem comes because GW could foster growth fairly easily by reducing prices across the board which would spurr growth because that really expensive hobby is now just costly, but not unattainable.
Look at the formula that caused the explosive growth in the early years, readonably costed kits, good quality kits, decent rules. These are the foundations for healthy market growth, which all the competition is currently focusing on with fantastic results.
I love this hobby and I make great money, but I look at kits and say do I really need this? Hell I spend way more buying resale and used stuff simply because I feel that I'm not getting the value I should be.
If GW felt that "high" price was actually hurting them (i.e. reduce pay & reduce bonuses), they could easily do something about it (i.e. reduce prices). That hasn't happened, so GW's production cost reductions and gross margin improvements mean they're not concerned. I look at IKR, WHQ:ST and think GW is doing just fine.
I have more than enough, and I buy almost nothing now, so it doesn't matter that much.
Also Davor, the moment you started challenging my manhood and level of nerdness in a discussion about pricing and barrier of entry is when there can be no more meaningful dialogue.
I never challenged your manhood, if I did how? I am sorry if I have upset you, it was never my intent. Maybe I guess I thought you were trying to embarrass me and I somehow defended myself. What ever, water under the bridge, I am sorry. But please let me know how I offended so I don't do it again.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: . Not to mention if you want to play GW's game, you pretty much have to use GW models.
That's going to depend on where you play, of course... but I've never encountered any serious resistance to third-party models, so long as they look appropriate and aren't confusing for opponents.
Even most tournaments these days will allow third party models, since the only reason for requiring GW models was to encourage GW prize support... which stopped a decade ago.
JohnHwangDD wrote: If GW felt that "high" price was actually hurting them (i.e. reduce pay & reduce bonuses), they could easily do something about it (i.e. reduce prices). That hasn't happened, so GW's production cost reductions and gross margin improvements mean they're not concerned. I look at IKR, WHQ:ST and think GW is doing just fine.
I have more than enough, and I buy almost nothing now, so it doesn't matter that much.
They can't while profits are dropping, as soon as you lower prices you lower profits which means you can't pay dividends which means stock get sold which means stock price drops.
Ever increasing prices are covering the fact that sales are in decline.
They don't want to suffer the short term pain necessary to kick sales back into positive numbers.
JohnHwangDD wrote: To be fair, those ever-increasing prices are making some pretty awesome models. Valkyrie. Imperial Knight. End Times. Wraithknight. Huge Scenery.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: So raising the price because the Pound and American Dollar was stronger than the Canadian dollar was weak, then proceed to "forget" about that price hike literally a year down the road because the Pound went down again just to keep charging the higher prices is not "gouging"? Same goes for Australian and New Zealand prices.
No, because as I already pointed out, price gouging is about essential goods and services. If a natural disaster destroys your only source of clean water then you have to buy bottled water or die, even if that water is selling for $1000 a bottle. If GW raises prices for whatever reason and you don't like those prices you're free to stop buying. At no point are you forced to pay the increased price.
Not to mention if you want to play GW's game, you pretty much have to use GW models. We get enough people here complaining about proxies as is. I never see DnD players get so uppidy about which orcs and dragons you use, but heavens forbid you use a third party Forge World Lookalike in a 30k game.
So what? Nobody is forcing you to play GW's games. If the people you're playing with don't like proxies or alternate models then play a different game. GW doesn't owe you cheaper prices just because you really want to have their stuff.
JohnHwangDD wrote: To be fair, those ever-increasing prices are making some pretty awesome models. Valkyrie. Imperial Knight. End Times. Wraithknight. Huge Scenery.
Although some people would call those pretty bad.
Some would tell them to go play another, cheaper game.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: But seriously, you can see the gouging because similar models within GW's own range have different values. Compare a vanilla Dreadnought to a Venerable Dreadnought to a Space Wolves Dreadnought. Or the various flavours of space marine characters.
Again, you don't understand what "price gouging" means. It is a term with a very specific meaning, and that meaning is NOT "setting different prices for two models that I think should have the same price".
100% agree. Since I started gaming again in 2007-2008 I have lost 60% of my gaming group. Left 40k because money and time investment is too steep. I have gained zero players in that time. I have met at least half a dozen people who would now be 40k addicts, but will never pay the astronomical prices for what they perceive as toys. The starter boxes seem like good deals to us veterans who know what the retail prices are. Anyone else will still scoff at them. Our group is dying a slow death. While we can always get noobs into D&D or magic, it is dramatically more difficult to get a new 40k gamer. In fact it hasn't happened since the price hike in 2009 when storm ravens jumped from $60 usd to....what is it now? $85 lol. I also used to spend @ least $50-$100 per month for a hobby budget. Now that money just goes in to savings if I don't find a deal. There are loads of new releases since the heldrake came out that I want in my collection...some for my main armies, and I will NEVER pay the asking prices. NEVER. Sure...40k is a cheap hobby compared to underwater exploration, but comparing it to anything but other tabletop mini games is pointless. It should also be stated that many of these tabletop games base their prices off GWs insane price model only slightly cheaper. Someone is paying those prices tho and they are fine with it, otherwise it would have to change. Rumor has it (from local shop owners) that no GW stuff is moving off the shelves they way they used to tho, so maybe GW will get their collective head out of their collective ass and start selling noobs armies again.
JohnHwangDD wrote: If GW felt that "high" price was actually hurting them (i.e. reduce pay & reduce bonuses), they could easily do something about it (i.e. reduce prices). That hasn't happened, so GW's production cost reductions and gross margin improvements mean they're not concerned. I look at IKR, WHQ:ST and think GW is doing just fine.
I have more than enough, and I buy almost nothing now, so it doesn't matter that much.
They can't while profits are dropping, as soon as you lower prices you lower profits which means you can't pay dividends which means stock get sold which means stock price drops.
Ever increasing prices are covering the fact that sales are in decline.
They don't want to suffer the short term pain necessary to kick sales back into positive numbers.
This is what I don't get. Cutting the price means less profits. How come Walmart makes billions then from selling things cheap? After all cutting the price should mean less profit, so how come Walmart is making millions?That said, a gaming store I know says they can sell stuff at 30% off but sell in huge volumes for profit. So that to me is something like what Walmart does, sell price but in volume.
So you would think cutting prices, would mean more of us buying and buying more product. I guess the thing is, GW doesn't want to sell in volumes. So that is why they sell so expensive. GW use to sell in volumes but they stopped, I wonder how come. First they close down the US production site for minis and paints. Then just did everything in UK, but now some stuff or a lot of stuff in China now. Thing is, I thought when you make stuff in China you make in bulk so you sell in volumes.
I don't know, trying to figure out how GW works or thinks just makes my head spin.
Things are 'expensive'. Warhammer, like many hobbies, has a high entry cost (300-600 dollars), a "monthly" cost (generally 60 dollars, assuming you buy 1-2 boxes a month), and the value is based on how you value it.
a PS4 (400 dollars), + a game a month (60)
1 HQ, 2 Troops, and 1 Elite & rules(~150 + 100 dollars for rules (assuming codex + ebay for rule book)), + 1 box a month (anywhere from 20 to 100+ dollars) + occasional 50 bucks for rule update
1 warcaster, 2 jacks, 1 unit (~100-150 assuming no starter box) + 1 kit a month (anywhere from 20 to 60+ bucks)
1 gaming PC (600-1000+), + a game a month (5-70 dollars)
GWs pricing for things like brushes and paints are high, HOWEVER when compared to other companies, they tend to cost about the same per box model wise, but warhammer involves typically larger armies, as such more money is needed to play said larger games HOWEVER there is no rule forcing you to play large. Additionally, you don't HAVE to use GW brushes and paints, you can always go to a local hobby store, and drop 5-6 bucks per brush, and 1-2 dollars per paint.
Do I think GW is expensive? Yes, about as expensive as warmachine/hordes, magic (when you play competitive), video gaming, and many MANY other hobbies. The only thing that is different is where you hold the value of the hobbies.
This is what I don't get. Cutting the price means less profits. How come Walmart makes billions then from selling things cheap? After all cutting the price should mean less profit, so how come Walmart is making millions?That said, a gaming store I know says they can sell stuff at 30% off but sell in huge volumes for profit. So that to me is something like what Walmart does, sell price but in volume.
Walmart makes money because of gakky business practices, and paying dirt to their employees. NOT really a business to aspire to be like
Davor wrote: How come Walmart makes billions then from selling things cheap? After all cutting the price should mean less profit, so how come Walmart is making millions?
Walmart leverages their immense buying power to buy stuff at significant wholesale discounts, direct from the manufacturers, then retails them for only slightly less than the MSRP, so they can say they are cheaper than their competitors. Walmart pay is low, they use part timers and seasonal staff to avoid paying benefits to it's employees. There are areas where they encourage their employees to seek federal assistance and keep them part time, instead of offering them full time benefited jobs that would lift them out of poverty.
To be honest, picking Walmart is a TERRIBLE example of how to do buissiness.. A quick Google search will find multiple documentaries on how atrocious Walmart is. If you think GW is an evil empire they are nothing in comparison to Walmart.
JohnHwangDD wrote: To be fair, those ever-increasing prices are making some pretty awesome models. Valkyrie. Imperial Knight. End Times. Wraithknight. Huge Scenery.
Although some people would call those pretty bad.
Some would tell them to go play another, cheaper game.
I did and its been a massive improvement I can get more than one game in a night, no need to stop playing to check rules like always happened with 40k which means zero arguments it's heaven.
It was so much cheaper I actually started several other games and still had money left over to upgrade my pc.
Still spending the same but it's going to several companies instead of GW, I voted with my wallet I urge others too.
In contrast, if I buy a $50 Leman Russ I get a much larger, high quality model. And the first thing I think, after building it for a month, is that it's of little use without two more to fill out a squadron, or at least one to make an HQ unit, and it needs six or seven boxes of guard to go with it to make an army...
I don't know, a single Leman Russ is more than a little use in a 500pt game, and bit of a monster in a 250pt game. I think part of the reason why people are freaking out over the cost of gaming in 40k is that they are just assuming that because there are like a dozen different factions and each faction has dozens of different units each with a great variety of upgrades and that large combinations get substantial game bonuses that you have to buy it all to play. Yeah if you have 7 leman Russes you get some bonus or another in some formation but you don't have to play on that scale, you can play 40k with just one russ and a squad or two. You have the rest of your life to build up to the big scale armies, why not start small to start with?
The good thing about 40k is that there is always room to grow. This is what draws me to 40k over Xwing, either can be played on small scale with just a few models but I think with only like 3 factions and a dozen different ships, X-wing is quite limited in how far you can take it. After a few years you have most all the ships, the game play will get samey, and have nowhere else to go with it.
I don't generally buy models (at retail) anymore. With that said, I have a NiB Leman Russ on my hobby pile. Reason for that being is that I am going back into Guard, and I have been offered 4 damaged Leman Russes for $60USD. The one that I have is essentially a 'patch kit' for the other four. How did I get it? I watched a buddy's animals while he went away over the holiday weekend.
I know Walmart is atrocious to it's workers. GW seems like that as well. Do their workers get benefits? Funny I don't see or read about long time GW workers in thier stores. There is a high turn over rate there.
But business practice aside, I meant to compare about buying in a lots quality and selling volumes for profit. Ok, let's forget Walmart if that is a bad example. What about what I said before.
So if a gaming store I went to sells stuff cheaper, a lot cheaper basically American prices or less in Canada, and I said how do you stay in business when other stores claim they can't sell cheap, the gaming store they sell in volume.
So GW can lower prices, we buy more for our army, I am sure a lot of would start buying for other armies as well. That would mean more sales right?
Isn't that what GW wants, more sales or just make as little as possible and charge as much as they can. Thing is, I am sure we all can agree this isn't working for GW anymore.
JohnHwangDD wrote: To be fair, those ever-increasing prices are making some pretty awesome models. Valkyrie. Imperial Knight. End Times. Wraithknight. Huge Scenery.
Although some people would call those pretty bad.
Some would tell them to go play another, cheaper game.
I did and its been a massive improvement I can get more than one game in a night, no need to stop playing to check rules like always happened with 40k which means zero arguments it's heaven.
It was so much cheaper I actually started several other games and still had money left over to upgrade my pc.
Still spending the same but it's going to several companies instead of GW, I voted with my wallet I urge others too.
Break out of the walled garden.
I hope another ground combat miniatures game quickly fills the void left by 40k in the American gaming scene. 40K has become strictly a tournament game, which means strictly Eldar, Space Marines and multi-codex armies with tacky combos like Eldar+Dark Eldar+Tau. The FLGS doesn't want 40K people hanging around, they tend to create a hostile atmosphere and scare away social gamers. There's nothing popular enough to really step up as a mainstream replacement in the LGS scene. I just want to play a skirmish game that forms a coherent in-universe narrative, but nothing other than GW has achieved the sort of mainstream recognition necessary for pickup games in a small-town FLGS the way M:TG, YuGiOh and X-wing have.
Daemonhost Cherubael wrote: [b][u]
Hell, even Magic the Gathering is cheaper than this. And on top of all that, my friends now have to buy the citadel paint sets and brushes for yet again another $30 - $40. What the hell GW?
I'm sorry, were you not around for the $1200 Standard deck era? $1200 for something that rotated out and pretty much fell out of favour because it didn't hold up in Modern or Legacy?
Ebay and Local Stores. GW has always sold things at a premium but this statement that MtG is cheaper had me laughing.
No, it really isn't. That squad of Space Marines will still be viable in 20 years time. The flippy Origins Jace is a thing with a 2 year lifespan tops. And you know what? The squad of Space Marines is actually cheaper than that single card was for the longest time.
We just talked about some guys deck who placed 1st in most recent WMCQ...ended up calculating that this deck is worth around 1.1k euros if not more. So please...
Back on topic about GW's pricing, don't forget that they still have a small army of staff, their retail shops, their designers, writers, artists, lawyers. All, who also add up to the cost. Unless their payments come from different sources...
I wonder if all those who think GW's prices are too much also think that the price at which the resellers of GW's products sell is too much?
GW direct sells a box of 10 tactical marines for £25, all the online resellers seem to sell that same box for £20.
Which is a discount of 20%. If you look at anything else GW on the reseller sites it is pretty much all at a 20% discount under GW's direct price.
Those same resellers never seem to sell X-wing or Malifaux or any other games for more than a 15% discount.
See I have heard that GW's trade discount relative to their MSRP is actually much better than other manufacturers, so resellers have more room to discount whilst still making a profit. You kind of need to factor that in when comparing the price of KoW, X-Wing and the rest with GW.
Davor wrote: So GW can lower prices, we buy more for our army, I am sure a lot of would start buying for other armies as well. That would mean more sales right?
There is no guarantee that lower prices would increase the volume of sales, but lower prices guarantees that GW would need to make more sales to make the same amount of money. If you sell it for less, you need to sell more of them. It's a mantra they jam into the head of all of their sales reps and independent retailers.
GW thinks like the movie industry and is interested in making back their investment during the first week of sales.
(Cost of Manufacture and Distribution)
----------------------------------------------------- x (Profit Margin) = Wholesale Cost
Expected Number of Sales at Release
It's also why GW's reprints are being offered at a discount now. Betrayal at Calth went from $180 to $150, the Get Started sets are hovering around a $50 discount on average, Imperial Knights Renegade is about a $150 dollar discount , etc...
Some people will also be priced out reguardless of what GW could reasonabley charge. Let's say GW decided to cut all their prices in half. They would have to make more than TWICE as many sales from then on to make what they are making now. The greater would incur greater manufaturing costs, greater shipping costs, greater storage costs, al least twice as much labor etc...
All so a hypothetical army would cost $500 instead of $1000. Many of the same people would still be priced out, even at that level, and GW can't reasonabley lower all their prices by 50%.
Not to mention that if GW changed prices on an existing product down, retailers currently with the product would get screwed.
SolarCross wrote: I wonder if all those who think GW's prices are too much also think that the price at which the resellers of GW's products sell is too much?
GW direct sells a box of 10 tactical marines for £25, all the online resellers seem to sell that same box for £20.
Which is a discount of 20%. If you look at anything else GW on the reseller sites it is pretty much all at a 20% discount under GW's direct price.
Those same resellers never seem to sell X-wing or Malifaux or any other games for more than a 15% discount.
See I have heard that GW's trade discount relative to their MSRP is actually much better than other manufacturers, so resellers have more room to discount whilst still making a profit. You kind of need to factor that in when comparing the price of KoW, X-Wing and the rest with GW.
So, in other words, GW set their RRP much higher relative to the production costs than other manufacturers?
Azreal13 wrote: So, in other words, GW set their RRP much higher relative to the production costs than other manufacturers?
Or other manufacturers are settling for a lower percentage of profit per model because they don't feel their brand can justify the higher MSRP. Or it could other reasons, we don't know.
So, in other words, GW set their RRP much higher relative to the production costs than other manufacturers?
You could look at it that way but it is beside the point, GW gives more room for resellers to discount. The reason for doing that is that right from the earliest days GW intended to create a luxurious excess of products from which the punters could choose but that means having a vast inventory which realistically they couldn't expect any reseller to stock completely. If a reseller doesn't stock it then it may as well not be made in the first place as it will never be sold. Consequently GW had to also have a retail presence in addition to being a manufacturer so that there would always be at least one place that a given product in their enormous range could be found by the punters if no one else felt it profitable to stock. But then GW as a manufacturer is in the awkward position of being in competition with the substance of their customers who are the resellers. This makes resellers nervous because if their supplier chose to undercut them they will be left with stock they can't sell except at a loss. To ensure the confidence of the resellers that GW will not undercut them they make a resolute policy to set their trade prices quite generously lower than their own retail prices and never discount or do deals on their own retail price.
Kill Team lets one buy a few boxes, and enjoy 40k quite well. Wounds allocations and Morale is about the only thing lacking in an environment where every model is pretty much Combat Squaded to themselves, and the lack of 2+ ARMOUR saves, and 4+ wounds... I can dig it.
I think that's a great way to get into the Game, with a low budget
Only other real rules differences are the particular tables to choose three "Specialists" on, and the Leader must be the highest LD Character in the army.
So, in other words, GW set their RRP much higher relative to the production costs than other manufacturers?
You could look at it that way but it is beside the point, GW gives more room for resellers to discount.
You realize their trade terms prevent excessive discounts, right?
The reason for doing that is that right from the earliest days GW intended to create a luxurious excess of products from which the punters could choose but that means having a vast inventory which realistically they couldn't expect any reseller to stock completely. If a reseller doesn't stock it then it may as well not be made in the first place as it will never be sold.
Citation needed. If you've any evidence of any grand plan from GW, feel free to share, because pretty much any interview I've ever seen with some of the founders and influential staff describes and environment where they were making it up as they went along. The large range is more an inevitable consequence of using new releases to drive sales and the irrelevance of discontinuing a product when you've already sunk the majority of the development costs into it up front.
Consequently GW had to also have a retail presence in addition to being a manufacturer so that there would always be at least one place that a given product in their enormous range could be found by the punters if no one else felt it profitable to stock. But then GW as a manufacturer is in the awkward position of being in competition with the substance of their customers who are the resellers.
GW's retail presence is more a product of the Kirby regime's desperate need to control the message, it's a massive financial liability and barely turns a profit. Of course, given a lengthy track record of burning bridges with third party retailers, they're now painted into a corner. Producers also being retailers is hardly new or unique and many companies manage it just fine, they accept that different company profiles appeal to different consumers and accept the lower margin in exchange for higher volume.
Plus "a given product in their enormous range could be found by punters?" Gimme a break, I expect the number of direct only items probably outnumbers the ones held in stock in a GW retail store, I expect many independent stores have a wider range, if only by dint of having stuff ordered new and sat on the shelf.
This makes resellers nervous because if their supplier chose to undercut them they will be left with stock they can't sell except at a loss. To ensure the confidence of the resellers that GW will not undercut them they make a resolute policy to set their trade prices quite generously lower than their own retail prices and never discount or do deals on their own retail price.
This is just rubbish, sorry. GW trade discount is ~40%, which is nothing significant in retail terms. Neither is there anything generous about it, it's simply standard wholesale practice, they're not cutting anyone some sort of break.
I agree with hobby cost comparison. Yes, every kind of hobby, be it sport, video games, music, even learning four different languages (hundred euros in various books and dictionnary for my part ). So, this is right. Though, this said, when I look at warlord games' prices, despite of a lower quality which in fact means quite nothing as they are not as fine as great too, I just can't stand such trashfanness from GW, this love for expensive gigantic minis and that I get one leman russ allost at the lrice of 3 STUGS ( stuggy fan alert). And of course a kit of three russes offers no NO single euro off...
To cut it short: yes, having a hobby is costy, but yes, GW is fooling us. That's why I hope they'll lose much costumers and be forced to have to prices go done.
JohnHwangDD wrote: If GW felt that "high" price was actually hurting them (i.e. reduce pay & reduce bonuses), they could easily do something about it (i.e. reduce prices). That hasn't happened, so GW's production cost reductions and gross margin improvements mean they're not concerned. I look at IKR, WHQ:ST and think GW is doing just fine.
I have more than enough, and I buy almost nothing now, so it doesn't matter that much.
Sale #'s are dropping steadily though. Last year core product profits fell. Only thing that saved overall profits was royalties from 3rd party(total war warhammer) going up. Sale #'s been going down steadily so unless they are total idiots they know they HAVE to do something to it. Sale # dropping constantly isn't sustainable(after all if it drops constantly eventually it hits 0).
However just because they realize something needs to be done doesn't mean it's same conclusion players might do. FB was 3rd best selling in USA but dropping in sales. What players would have done? Reduce prices, increase support, improve rules. What GW did? Drop support to life support, keep upping prices, start working on replacement game.
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Davor wrote: So GW can lower prices, we buy more for our army, I am sure a lot of would start buying for other armies as well. That would mean more sales right?
Let's say prices drop 50%. Would you buy MORE than double what you did? Ie you spend 100£/month now. Would you then spend 130£/month?
It's not as black and white. For starters miniatures are niche product. They have user base cap they cannot really exceed. For second it's worse for them if they drop price say 50% and sale # doubles. Also dropping prices isn't quarantee to even result in old players buying more or new players joining up. GW has generated lots of ill will so simply dropping prices isn't going to cause quick change in buying habits...
As people have said it is a very niche market to sell to. To make enough profit y out have to do one of two things; either sell lots of cheaper product, or smaller amounts of expensive stuff.
With GW, it has to be the second as there aren't that many players in the grand scheme of things. And then you have to factorij costs other than just the plastic it self. There's the machinery, the molds themselves, the designers, the day labour in the factory, artists for box covers, shipping costs and so on. It can fairly rack up expenses. Hell the metal molds for plastic injection are hugely expensive as they have to be used over and over while subject to high heat and pressure, and still retain all the details.
Then there's shop costs, electric for the shop, staff wages, leaflets, pens, rent, even toliet paper. for every single shop they own they have to buythise things. This is why third party can do 20% off, because GW don't have to pay for anything extra beyond making and shipping.
If they cut costs more people would have to buy more, but most people already have a sizable army. That puts pressure on selling to new players, which leads to that horrible pushy sales tactic in stores everybody hates. It's why they did age of sigmar, because most players already had a huge army and wouldn't buy more to add to their collection of ancient models that they got 15 years ago. They needed to makeit more accessible because theonly way to play was to buy a massive army to compete with veterans.
If everyone really wants lower prices in gw, it would have to take more people buying more stuff first to show GW that it wouldbe worthwhile to actually lower prices. But nobody wants to do that because it's too expensive right now. It's a catch 22 for both parties
It costs literally pennies to make a sprue including material costs and labour.
The cardboard costs more than the sprues they hold.
The cost comes from the mold and even then that's only the steel ones the aluminium ones are cheap but wear out quicker.
No let's make no bones about it your paying that price because they are locked into long term leases on shops that don't make enough money to pay for themselves, and dividends to bloat kirbys bank balance and to keep shareholders from selling up.
GW are set up for mass production they should be selling in bulk, instead they are trying to run a boutique.
You realize their trade terms prevent excessive discounts, right?
I heard that they complained of online retailers discounting so much that B & M stores couldn't compete. That does not imply they against their resellers discounting just that they wanted to protect the LGS who they imagine do more to support the hobby. As I understand it they now have a variable trade discount depending on whether the reseller has a B&M presence. B&Ms get a better discount. Actually Privateer Press also complained of online retailers hurting B&M stores.
Citation needed. If you've any evidence of any grand plan from GW, feel free to share, because pretty much any interview I've ever seen with some of the founders and influential staff describes and environment where they were making it up as they went along. The large range is more an inevitable consequence of using new releases to drive sales and the irrelevance of discontinuing a product when you've already sunk the majority of the development costs into it up front. ----
Well I was speculating there. It seemed plausible to me, but equally your own narrative is also plausible.
This is just rubbish, sorry. GW trade discount is ~40%, which is nothing significant in retail terms. Neither is there anything generous about it, it's simply standard wholesale practice, they're not cutting anyone some sort of break.
I was told it was 50% by an independent stockist from whom I bought up a rack of GW stock for resale on ebay (He mostly sold Airfix kits & similar with only one bay for GW, when a new LGS opened nearby dedicated to wargaming & GW with tables and big selection of stock, he no longer had customers coming in for GW so wanted to redeploy his capital on something that would sell faster). The distributor from whom I buy everything that doesn't come from GW such as Army Painter, X-Wing, Malifaux, has a trade discount of 45%. That 5% difference would seem to account for how it is that online retailers like Goblin Games can sell ALL their GW at 20% off whilst selling everything else at not better than 15% off.
SolarCross wrote: That 5% difference would seem to account for how it is that online retailers like Goblin Games can sell ALL their GW at 20% off whilst selling everything else at not better than 15% off.
Not necessarily. A larger discount can be counter-balanced by larger volume of sales. It's not necessarily anything to do with the trade price.
I dunno, I see price gouging on a whole new level between FLGS here:
I see Renegade selling for $190 at the more high volume FLGS and then $250 for the more local store and still see the old Knights on the shelf for $190.
My Polish friend is such an enthusiastic guy commented that "They are all gouging Bas@$%^&*!"... and made a marine company completely out of used models.
The more messed up the models the more he liked them (cheap!!!!).
He soaked them, cleaned them, took them all apart into components and put them all together again.
An entire 2nd edition style mechanized marine company for a couple hundred bucks.
Yes GW sucks at this time for affordability, but there is enough product out there to be easily found.
I am sure the "plumbing drop pods" still have great utility:
You realize their trade terms prevent excessive discounts, right?
I heard that they complained of online retailers discounting so much that B & M stores couldn't compete. That does not imply they against their resellers discounting just that they wanted to protect the LGS who they imagine do more to support the hobby. As I understand it they now have a variable trade discount depending on whether the reseller has a B&M presence. B&Ms get a better discount. Actually Privateer Press also complained of online retailers hurting B&M stores.
That's a different issue, and not the one I was referring to. There is a clause that was introduced more recently which is along the lines of "discount deeper than 20% will not be tolerated."
Price fixing is illegal of course, but a supplier does retain the right to refuse to sell to a company for an infinite number of other reasons, many of which would be spurious and vague enough to be unprovable in court, so anyone wishing to continue to sell GW has no choice but to toe the line.
I was told it was 50% by an independent stockist from whom I bought up a rack of GW stock for resale on ebay (He mostly sold Airfix kits & similar with only one bay for GW, when a new LGS opened nearby dedicated to wargaming & GW with tables and big selection of stock, he no longer had customers coming in for GW so wanted to redeploy his capital on something that would sell faster). The distributor from whom I buy everything that doesn't come from GW such as Army Painter, X-Wing, Malifaux, has a trade discount of 45%. That 5% difference would seem to account for how it is that online retailers like Goblin Games can sell ALL their GW at 20% off whilst selling everything else at not better than 15% off.
There are tiers of discount, but the highest I've ever heard from anyone is ~40 (maybe 45?.) Your guy could have been including the VAT or all sorts that would fudge the discount as a % of RRP, or maybe he got some sort of special deal as a new account or any number of other reasons.
I don't know, a single Leman Russ is more than a little use in a 500pt game, and bit of a monster in a 250pt game. I think part of the reason why people are freaking out over the cost of gaming in 40k is that they are just assuming that because there are like a dozen different factions and each faction has dozens of different units each with a great variety of upgrades and that large combinations get substantial game bonuses that you have to buy it all to play.
Absolutely true, and I think on that front the fault is with me .
I've been into 40k since the mid-90s. That means I've been kicking around in this hobby for twenty years now. In my time I've built two full sized ork armies, three space marine armies, one Tau, one Dark Eldar, three Chaos Marine, two Tyranid, three Imperial Guard, and countless little projects like Armorcast titans and the like, to say nothing of Epic and Necromunda and all of the spin-off games.
As my collection grew larger and larger over the years, I always wanted to play full 2000 point games to get as much of it out there on the board as possible. I had a whole room stuffed with terrain and a full sized gaming table.
Now, Emperor protect, I'm getting middle aged. I'm married, and have a kid, and our lives are full of responsibilities I never imagined ten years ago. I still love my old hobby, but suddenly it seems really inconvenient to wedge the gaming table into the kitchen, and drag all of the terrain out of the basement, and try to schedule kid-free time for a friend to visit and play a game. My collection has shrunken tremendously, and I've not played a game of 40k in over a year.
And, while this has been happening to me, GW has been ballooning the game out of control - now there are aircraft, and routine super heavies, and endless formations, and on and on, which seems impossible to keep up with if I wanted to pack an army and head to a store for a pickup game.
So, for someone like me, X-wing is more attractive not because it's a better game, but because it's a smaller, simpler game, that fits better into my life. So, in retrospect, I guess my problem isn't price at all, but the perceived scale of the game I expect to play in 40k. Next time I get a chance, I should ask a friend to play a 500 point or less game with me, in a 3' x 3' space like X-wing, and see how it plays at that scale.
Talizvar wrote: I dunno, I see price gouging on a whole new level between FLGS here:
I see Renegade selling for $190 at the more high volume FLGS and then $250 for the more local store and still see the old Knights on the shelf for $190.
Again that's not gouging. Really people should at least use proper terms.
You claim that's gouging. How those are essentials you need to buy?
Their operating costs are probably what kills them and what forces the price increases in the models. Then they spin it by emphasizing the high quality of the product. The biggest lie they tried to sell was the "we're a model company"
....except for the fact that they're really a conglomerate of companies
a model design company
a model manufacturing company
a board games maker
a magazine publisher
a book publisher
a video game "producer" - not a developer or distributor or publisher - but they help to produce the games by offering creative consultation and licensing
I would have added paint and model supplies maker but I'm going to assume these are outsourced and GW/Citadel branding is applied.
When I look at the list above, I see so much overhead.
Each "division" has management teams and executives that are being paid in GBP, in a country with a high cost of living.
They manufacture products in 4 separate mediums - Without a doubt they require separate machines, chemicals, suppliers, industrial processes etc...
What really blows my mind is the fact that they're sales numbers are bad and have been trending downward for a few years. As a publicly traded company, their beholden to the shareholders to make money. So why are they still operating the business in a way that seems to not be aimed at increasing profits, lowering operating costs and expanding your customer base. Right now, they seem to think that the only way to make money is bleeding their existing customers as much as possible by repackaging existing products and rule set changes that improve under performing products, causing sales spikes.
Their really fudging the numbers to the board. No one wants to make the hard decision it seems. I get it though. It's an expensive business to operate. high detail, very small injection molding is costly. Those molds require artists, complex cad programs and precision machines.
So here's my fixes to lowering the cost of entry so the OPs and my friends will take the dive into the wonderful world of 40k:
Manufacturing Practices +Only manufacture in plastic. GW would cut costs by having to only work in 1 medium and not have to have specialized machines, processes. chemicals/materials, etc... that require you to make products in metal, resin and finecast. AOS has shown you can have amazing details via plastics.
Branding / Corporate Structure +Get rid of Citadel and Forgeworld - Market everything as Warhammer/WH40k. It far less confusing for newcomers when all they have to know is Warhammer or Warhammer40k. Also if they have separate management structures, you could combine staff and cut unneeded weight.
Creative +Take the best writers and IP people from the company and form the Warhammer Universe creative team - this team is basically responsible for all the lore and rules for AOS and 40k. They're job, is to keep everything coherent and to progress the story line. They keep continuity in the setting. make decisions as to what gets published - like George Lucas with the star wars expanded universe.
+Poach game designers from boardgame companies and form a rules team that cleans up the current 40k rule set and balances all the codices - THEY WOULD work in tandem with the creative team to provide the best product possible.
+Standardize rules - get rid of similar rules with different names - namely special rules for a unit in 1 codex that are similar to core rules.
+++You'd still have 40k, AOS, Horus Heresy, LotR - just not sperate rules teams for 40k units and forgeworld units
+Remove the most of internal modelers, diorama makers, painters....all art now digital or drawn art, not photos of the models on elaborate tables. Instead ask for fan submissions. if you want to include pictures of painted models. - Cost savings would bet huge - hire companies to paint the models for the events when required, or to do tutorial videos rather than keeping them on staff and paying salaries, benefits etc.... Hell they'll do it for free to get the advertising - "this Warhammer painting tutorial was provided by Awaken Realms painting...."
Publishing +Cease all published media and...Form a partnership with a major international publisher, license the rights to the Black Library to print and distribute to that publisher. Bantam or Random House (published a lot of the Star Wars expanded universe books) . Sign a deal to have Dark Horse, DC, Marvel, to publish comics or graphic novel series. - The marketing and distribution will be better than anything GW could do and the company will make money off of the licensing and not have to pay all the people to run the BL. The deal would be structured in a way where GW's creative team would need to vet the stories to ensure they fall in line with the established universe and the direction for the universe.
Additional Revenue Streams +Sell licensing rights to various manufactures to make paints "designed" for 40k/AOS. This lets people choose the paints they want, generates more money from licensing fees.
+Sell licensing rights to games makers to make boardgames - that's their core business, they'll do it better than GW. GW makes money and doesn't have to employ people to do this.
+Continue striving to make quality video games and sell licenses to quality game developers
Digital + Rules - RULES SHOULD BE ENTIRELY DIGITAL - EVERYONE HAS A PHONE, TABLET OR PC/LAPTOP available - if they only have a laptop / PC they can write their lists on pen and paper / print rules as needed
+Improve online presence
+Run 1 website
+Buy battlescribe
+Change digital codices to mainly rulesets for units.
+Integrate digital codices with battlescribe
+Allow people to buy codex subscriptions - live - updates, patches, errata, FAQ for $50USD per year.
+Codex subscription also includes 40K the Rules subscription free. Core rules would also be updated same as codices.
+Rules would still contain standard game types of Eternal War / Maelstrom
+Turn White Dwarf into a digital subscription - $20 for the year - now cheaper to produce, fanzine content, maybe work with your publishing partners to provide sneekpeek content to new books/comics coming out, provide sneekpeeks into new models
Codices need to change There should only be 3 book types you can optionally buy that can be produced for less because they are A. not produced by GW B. Don't have dioramas to create, all digital art, C. Contain less content D. Can put out the scenarios books more often
+Lore - artwork, history, short stories, unit descriptions - NO RULES or game scenarios - Full colour book - soft cover - $30 USD
+Collectors Editions - Lore +includes the standard collectors edition extras - full colour book hard - NO RULES - cover - $100 USD
+Scenarios and Campaigns - contain different scenarios for games types and settings - can put these out more often, $30 USD each
By cutting costs everywhere else in the business you can start offering lower priced products. By not attaching rules to all the books and lowering prices, you can put them out more frequently and generate more income. Lower priced products will mean people will buy more, boosting sales.
By moving to digital systems for rules and list creation you can charge subscription fees and release updates for all armies at once. By merging brands into 2 core brand, you eliminate confusion. The company is either Warhammer or Warhammer40k and all products related to those brands would be branded as such.
Lower prices, easy brand recognition, excellent digital presence and tools, new content for games, rules that are simplified and updated regularly would only help the company get new customers.
Manufacturing Practices +Only manufacture in plastic. GW would cut costs by having to only work in 1 medium and not have to have specialized machines, processes. chemicals/materials, etc... that require you to make products in metal, resin and finecast. AOS has shown you can have amazing details via plastics.
You do realize their fixation to going all plastic is why we end up with ridiculously priced character models? Since they sell less than basic troops but production costs are basically same they need to charge up more for them...
Buying used is good at the start. After you get set in your ways the missing bits, broken pieces, thick paint removal, spider webs, hair, and random bangs do not add up to the value you saved. The surprises never end buying used. I never save very much, just gave somebody almost market value for substandard kits. Plastic kits = Boxed only. YMMV.
Oggthrok wrote: I'm getting middle aged. I'm married, and have a kid, and our lives are full of responsibilities I never imagined ten years ago. I still love my old hobby, but suddenly it seems really inconvenient to wedge the gaming table into the kitchen, and drag all of the terrain out of the basement, and try to schedule kid-free time for a friend to visit and play a game. My collection has shrunken tremendously, and I've not played a game of 40k in over a year.
So, for someone like me, X-wing is more attractive not because it's a better game, but because it's a smaller, simpler game, that fits better into my life. So, in retrospect, I guess my problem isn't price at all, but the perceived scale of the game I expect to play in 40k. Next time I get a chance, I should ask a friend to play a 500 point or less game with me, in a 3' x 3' space like X-wing, and see how it plays at that scale.
Hi, old timer!
Some comments:
1. You can teach your kid to play. And set up a permanent game table in the basement, rather than dragging all of the stuff up and down. Make a nice gaming space down there.
2. My friends and I have also switched mostly to boardgaming: Memoir '44, BattleLore, Super Dungeon Explore, Flames of War (Open Fire! boxed set), Zombicide, X-wing, and so on. My rule for new games is that it ALL fits in ONE box (or storage tub). Having less "stuff" for the game simplifies the whole process tremendously.
3. 40k scale creep means that 1,000 is yesterday's 1,500. And there's nothing wrong with playing 1,500 pts of 3E-5E, if that's what you and your friends enjoy. We played 1,000 pts last weekend, and it was fine. 500 pts will play just fine on a kitchen table, especially if you look at Kill Team rules..
Davor wrote: So GW can lower prices, we buy more for our army, I am sure a lot of would start buying for other armies as well. That would mean more sales right?
Let's say prices drop 50%. Would you buy MORE than double what you did? Ie you spend 100£/month now. Would you then spend 130£/month?
It's not as black and white. For starters miniatures are niche product. They have user base cap they cannot really exceed. For second it's worse for them if they drop price say 50% and sale # doubles. Also dropping prices isn't quarantee to even result in old players buying more or new players joining up. GW has generated lots of ill will so simply dropping prices isn't going to cause quick change in buying habits...
Great explanation. Thank you very much for it. Yes I know that is not the answer now but my logic of thinking was, before GW had lots of stock, so they produced in volumes. People kept buying a lot. GW now increase prices, still had lots of stalk and people kept buying. Prices keep increasing and finally somewhere people didn't buy as much. Now GW had a lot of stock that wasn't moving. So now GW keeps increasing prices and selling less and less. Profits are going down less and less. GW finally has cut down to the bone because of the changes to one man stores in no where land in a lot of places. GW finally gets rid of all their stock, but still kept raising prices.
Now we see people are really not buying a lot. Why? Because prices were increasing. So if 1+1+1=3, (price increase, less sales, price increase less sales, price increase less sales) wouldn't that mean 3-1-1=2? (Price decrease, more sales)
The thing I find I can't understand is if price increase=less sales, how come a price decrease=/= more sales?
Davor wrote: The thing I find I can't understand is if price increase=less sales, how come a price decrease=/= more sales?
It increases sales but does it increase more than price lost? Remember not all sale losses are also from price.
If you sell 10 units at 100 each but then drop price to 90 how many you need to sell? 11.111... would be bad deal from GW. They need to sell more than that. Remember they are LOSING MONEY if only result is same people buy more boxes by same money. Price decreases need to either convince you to spend more OR get new players. If prices would drop by 50% say would you increase total money spent on GW stuff by say 20%? 30%?
Also all these price increases, rule quality issues etc have created substantial illwill among players. You don't clear up that and make them instantly return to GW customers just by dropping prices. Really how many of disgruntled ex-GW customers would start buying heavily even if prices would drop by 33%? (which of course is itself unreasonable expectation for price drop amount)
So while price drop could help in LONG TERM it would be very bad for short term. That's not going to be likely solution then at least unless GW decides it's really the last straw.
Also these days there's lot more competition for GW games. Some which has sprung up because GW mishandled their products before. It's harder for them to compete hobby money. Players don't spend X per game they play. They spend X per month which they divide among games they play. Before it was mainly "FB or 40k? Or both?". Now it's "FB? 40k? Warmachine? X-wing? Kings of war?" to name but a few...
SolarCross wrote: That 5% difference would seem to account for how it is that online retailers like Goblin Games can sell ALL their GW at 20% off whilst selling everything else at not better than 15% off.
Not necessarily. A larger discount can be counter-balanced by larger volume of sales. It's not necessarily anything to do with the trade price.
True enough, though when you figure in VAT in the UK being 20% then I don't see how Goblin Gaming can charge 20% less than MSRP on everything GW unless they had a better than average trade price from them.
Look again at the tactical marine box.
GW price £25, Goblin Games price £20
VAT on GG price is £4, meaning when you the punter pay them £20 they only actually get £16 as the VAT man eats the rest.
Now compare with hypothetical trade prices as a percentage of MSRP:
50% of £25 is £12.50
55% of £25 is £13.75
60% of £25 is £15
If GGs trade price is 50% they make £3.50 per box sold
If GGs trade price is 55% (as I know other distributors do) they make £2.25 per box sold
If GGs trade price is 60% (as Azreal thinks) they only make a £1 per box sold
That isn't even profit as that has to cover other selling expenses besides stock purchases. I don't see how GG could make any profit by selling everything at 20% less than MSRP unless their trade price was 55% or less.
Davor wrote: The thing I find I can't understand is if price increase=less sales, how come a price decrease=/= more sales?
It increases sales but does it increase more than price lost? Remember not all sale losses are also from price.
If you sell 10 units at 100 each but then drop price to 90 how many you need to sell? 11.111... would be bad deal from GW. They need to sell more than that. Remember they are LOSING MONEY if only result is same people buy more boxes by same money. Price decreases need to either convince you to spend more OR get new players. If prices would drop by 50% say would you increase total money spent on GW stuff by say 20%? 30%?
Thanks for the explanation, that makes more sense. In other words accounting. Thing is, I remember back then a lot of people kept buying even if they didn't need it or use it. They bought all the codices. They bought minis that were not in their army. Price increases stopped people from buying everything. Stopped buying all the codices and only bought for their army only. I would believe if prices dropped people would do this, BUT
Also all these price increases, rule quality issues etc have created substantial illwill among players. You don't clear up that and make them instantly return to GW customers just by dropping prices. Really how many of disgruntled ex-GW customers would start buying heavily even if prices would drop by 33%? (which of course is itself unreasonable expectation for price drop amount)
So are correct here. GW has created a lot of ill will and toxicity. Even dropping prices now is not the solution. Too bad they can't just say "sorry". Actually they can, but they won't for reasons "corporations don't do these things like say sorry.".
So while price drop could help in LONG TERM it would be very bad for short term. That's not going to be likely solution then at least unless GW decides it's really the last straw.
I guess I am looking at long term, while the accountants look at long term and short term. Short term I wasn't looking or thinking at. Thanks for reminding me about that.
Also these days there's lot more competition for GW games. Some which has sprung up because GW mishandled their products before. It's harder for them to compete hobby money. Players don't spend X per game they play. They spend X per month which they divide among games they play. Before it was mainly "FB or 40k? Or both?". Now it's "FB? 40k? Warmachine? X-wing? Kings of war?" to name but a few...
Yeah ironically it was GW who have introduced me to these games because of thier practices. Now my money goes else where as well. I am wondering though, if GW didn't do what they did and kept prices affordable and had a clear concise set of rules and great communication with their fans, would PP have taken off and would we be playing other games? I am sure some would, but I believe a lot of us like me wouldn't have known what PP was or X-wing and other games existed. I am sure the only reasons why PP and games like X-wing are so good is because they have learnt from GW mistakes and GW didn't.
Again, great post and I appreciate the time you took to explain it to me.
SolarCross wrote: That 5% difference would seem to account for how it is that online retailers like Goblin Games can sell ALL their GW at 20% off whilst selling everything else at not better than 15% off.
Not necessarily. A larger discount can be counter-balanced by larger volume of sales. It's not necessarily anything to do with the trade price.
True enough, though when you figure in VAT in the UK being 20% then I don't see how Goblin Gaming can charge 20% less than MSRP on everything GW unless they had a better than average trade price from them.
Look again at the tactical marine box.
GW price £25, Goblin Games price £20
VAT on GG price is £4, meaning when you the punter pay them £20 they only actually get £16 as the VAT man eats the rest.
Now compare with hypothetical trade prices as a percentage of MSRP:
50% of £25 is £12.50
55% of £25 is £13.75
60% of £25 is £15
If GGs trade price is 50% they make £3.50 per box sold
If GGs trade price is 55% (as I know other distributors do) they make £2.25 per box sold
If GGs trade price is 60% (as Azreal thinks) they only make a £1 per box sold
That isn't even profit as that has to cover other selling expenses besides stock purchases. I don't see how GG could make any profit by selling everything at 20% less than MSRP unless their trade price was 55% or less.
RRP = £25 inclusive of vat.
£20 ex vat (give or take a few pennies)
Goblin Gaming RRP = £20 incl VAT
£16 excl vat
GG don't pay VAT on purchase of stock.
Therefore they're paying the EX VAT price - 40%.
£20 ex vat - 40% = £12
So by selling it at £16 GG are in fact making £4 a box.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just to qualify this - I do know what I'm talking about, I've about 14 years of retail behind me, including 3 years doing it myself!
SolarCross wrote: That 5% difference would seem to account for how it is that online retailers like Goblin Games can sell ALL their GW at 20% off whilst selling everything else at not better than 15% off.
Not necessarily. A larger discount can be counter-balanced by larger volume of sales. It's not necessarily anything to do with the trade price.
True enough, though when you figure in VAT in the UK being 20% then I don't see how Goblin Gaming can charge 20% less than MSRP on everything GW unless they had a better than average trade price from them.
Look again at the tactical marine box.
GW price £25, Goblin Games price £20
VAT on GG price is £4, meaning when you the punter pay them £20 they only actually get £16 as the VAT man eats the rest.
Now compare with hypothetical trade prices as a percentage of MSRP:
50% of £25 is £12.50
55% of £25 is £13.75
60% of £25 is £15
If GGs trade price is 50% they make £3.50 per box sold
If GGs trade price is 55% (as I know other distributors do) they make £2.25 per box sold
If GGs trade price is 60% (as Azreal thinks) they only make a £1 per box sold
That isn't even profit as that has to cover other selling expenses besides stock purchases. I don't see how GG could make any profit by selling everything at 20% less than MSRP unless their trade price was 55% or less.
RRP = £25 inclusive of vat.
£20 ex vat (give or take a few pennies)
Goblin Gaming RRP = £20 incl VAT
£16 excl vat
GG don't pay VAT on purchase of stock.
Therefore they're paying the EX VAT price - 40%.
£20 ex vat - 40% = £12
So by selling it at £16 GG are in fact making £4 a box.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just to qualify this - I do know what I'm talking about, I've about 14 years of retail behind me, including 3 years doing it myself!
The distributor from which I get X-Wing, Malifaux and everything else non-GW sets their trade price from RRP. So it is 55% of RRP.
40% discount from exVAT RRP is a close equivalent to 50% discount from RRP.
£20 ex vat - 40% = £12
£25 RRP - 50% = £12.50
We are talking about the same thing, but either way 40% off of ex vat RRP is better than 45% of off RRP.
If we're talking about the same thing, how are my calculations making 400% more profit on the same figures?
When dealing B2B nobody talks about VAT incl prices, just nobody, because it isn't relevant.
The only way I can see your distributor doing that is that they're so tiny they're not VAT registered or they're actually just a retailer and not a distributor.
Azreal13 wrote: If we're talking about the same thing, how are my calculations making 400% more profit on the same figures?
When dealing B2B nobody talks about VAT incl prices, just nobody, because it isn't relevant.
The only way I can see your distributor doing that is that they're so tiny they're not VAT registered or they're actually just a retailer and not a distributor.
You are talking about a 40% discount from ex-Vat RRP whereas I was talking about 50% discount from RRP which is more or less the same thing. How are you not getting that?
The distributor I use, sends me a spreadsheet order form every week, it has the ex-VAT trade price next to the RRP for reference, from this I worked out that their discount is 45% of off RRP because that is just quicker than working out the ex-VAT RRP then working out the discount from that. (Yes they are a proper distributor and they are VAT registered).
Regardless GW's 50% of off RRP which you prefer to present as 40% of off ex-VAT RRP is better than 45% of off RRP which is roughly equivalent to 32% of off ex VAT RRP.
Talizvar wrote: I dunno, I see price gouging on a whole new level between FLGS here:
I see Renegade selling for $190 at the more high volume FLGS and then $250 for the more local store and still see the old Knights on the shelf for $190.
Again that's not gouging. Really people should at least use proper terms.
You claim that's gouging. How those are essentials you need to buy?
"Price gouging is a pejorative term referring to when a seller spikes the prices of goods, services or commodities to a level much higher than is considered reasonable or fair, and is considered exploitative, potentially to an unethical extent."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_gouging - pricing above the market when no alternative retailer is available (wordnet.princeton.edu) I think the definition you are working from on "price gouging" is different from what I have seen.
The definitions do not require the commodity to be "essential".
If a big event is being held in a city and hotel rooms double in cost: that is price gouging (even more so if it is the ONLY hotel).
Many would argue in most causes "gouging" is merely a response to market supply vs demand and "adjusting" accordingly.
My issue with my original statement is I WANT to buy from my local FLGS because he hosts games BUT he marks up his stuff so high I cannot with good conscience ever buy big items there.
Azreal13 wrote: If we're talking about the same thing, how are my calculations making 400% more profit on the same figures?
When dealing B2B nobody talks about VAT incl prices, just nobody, because it isn't relevant.
The only way I can see your distributor doing that is that they're so tiny they're not VAT registered or they're actually just a retailer and not a distributor.
You are talking about a 40% discount from ex-Vat RRP whereas I was talking about 50% discount from RRP which is more or less the same thing. How are you not getting that?
The distributor I use, sends me a spreadsheet order form every week, it has the ex-VAT trade price next to the RRP for reference, from this I worked out that their discount is 45% of off RRP because that is just quicker than working out the ex-VAT RRP then working out the discount from that. (Yes they are a proper distributor and they are VAT registered).
Regardless GW's 50% of off RRP which you prefer to present as 40% of off ex-VAT RRP is better than 45% of off RRP which is roughly equivalent to 32% of off ex VAT RRP.
A government levied sales tax has absolutely no relevance to the cost of a product to your business. You will confuse any number of people familiar with the process of buying goods at wholesale (me included evidently) by referring to this in the bass ackwards manner you're doing. It's not a preference, it's how it's done. VAT could change tomorrow, it will have no bearing on the cost of the same product to your business, nor will it alter the discount you're receiving, yet by your method, it would.
Say something costs £100ex vat RRP, with a discount of 40% meaning that the business pays £60 for it.
If you use your method, 50% of the VAT inclusive price is £60, which comes out the same.
Now, if Theresa puts VAT up to 25% when she moves into Downing St tomorrow, that same product will now retail for £125.
If we now apply your method, all of a sudden the cost of the product is £62.50, but there's been no change to wholesale discount or actual wholesale cost.
If we use my method, nothing has changed other than the final price the consumer pays, which is as it should be.
You're free to use any method you see fit in your own day to day operations, of course, but it would have been much easier if you communicated using the conventional expression because, frankly, it came across as you didn't have a clue what you were talking about. Also, personally, I'd feel more comfortable with tighter control over my margins than what appears to be a much woolier and imprecise method, but if it works for you I'm in no place to criticize.
My issue with my original statement is I WANT to buy from my local FLGS because he hosts games BUT he marks up his stuff so high I cannot with good conscience ever buy big items there.
Economics 101. Give the customer what they want. He is not giving you want you want so you have to go else where. You are looking for a cheaper price, you found a cheaper price, it's up to the store now to match or at least entice you to buy there still. If not he is not giving you what you want and it's the stores loss. Sometimes stores and GW forgets, they need us, we don't need them (to a point).
Plus, FW can actually cast stuff to order while you wait at WHW, and post isn't that fast
Forgeworld were for a time getting some stuff cast in China... (That was when the market was suddenly flooded with cheap Forgeworld knock-offs... Speculation at the time was that at least some of them were probably being cast 'out of hours' in Forgeworld's own moulds) but was eventually all pulled back to the UK.
Grief wrote: Cry a river. I am going to repeat what these dipships told me when I said GW was too expensive, "Get a better higher paying job."
"Its not GW's fault you are broke af poor low income trash."
While that's a somewhat indelicate way of putting it, it's not really wrong.
If you can't afford a given hobby, the answer is to either find a way to make it affordable, or find a different hobby. There is no obligation for the company that makes the product you want to lower their prices just because they're out of your price range.
I'd love to be in a position to buy as many miniatures now as I was buying 10 years ago... But I can't. So I don't.
Your using a false equivalency argument even if you don't know it thus invalidating the point you want to make.
Compare like to like which means miniature wargame to miniature wargame, doing anything else is absurd.
No, it is not absurd. People enjoy golf, like 40k. It takes about the same time, can be played with 2 in match play (or 4, like a game of 40k with friends.)
They are not identical, no, but the comparison is not a false equivalency. It is a near-true equivalency. Providing a counter-example that shows that other games are worse is quite illustrative.
Perhaps the OP can read this example and get a grip on himself. Yes, it's expensive, but few complain that golf is too expensive.
Why?
People who want to play golf save their pennies and buy golf clubs.
What do you know!! The OP can do the same thing! Does he want a wraithknight? He could work his minimum wage job for 20 hours and then he is done! Instant wraithknight! Do that a few times, and he has a VERY tough list for 40k.
And then OP can play and play and play, for free, gaining hundreds or thousands of hours of enjoyment out of his purchase.
"This is cheap because another thing is more expensive," while true, is a meaningless argument, and we can keep going in both directions with examples that don't actually prove anything.
Something else costing more money has absolutely no relevance, because this is not necessarily something I'm interested in spending money on, whereas other war games being cheaper/more expensive does, as, this being a wargame forum, it's a reasonable assumption other games may be something that would appeal to a typical poster.
I, for instance, might be a bit miffed that something I wanted to buy from GW is priced at a point I can't either afford, or where the price exceeds what I deem reasonable for it.
In contrast, I couldn't give three tenths of a purple feth that cross stitch kits have never been more affordable, or whatever.
JimOnMars wrote: Yes, it's expensive, but few complain that golf is too expensive.
If you Google 'Is golf too expensive?' the very first hit is an article talking about how golf is too expensive for beginners, and that the game is declining as a result.
So even if comparing two completely different hobbies did mean anything, golf is possibly not the best example for your argument...
Grief wrote: Cry a river. I am going to repeat what these dipships told me when I said GW was too expensive, "Get a better higher paying job."
"Its not GW's fault you are broke af poor low income trash."
While that's a somewhat indelicate way of putting it, it's not really wrong.
If you can't afford a given hobby, the answer is to either find a way to make it affordable, or find a different hobby. There is no obligation for the company that makes the product you want to lower their prices just because they're out of your price range.
I'd love to be in a position to buy as many miniatures now as I was buying 10 years ago... But I can't. So I don't.
But GW isn't the hobby wargaming is the hobby.
I can afford wargaming be it flames of war, x-wing or the batman game.
What I can't do is buy 40k without feeling ripped off even from 3rd party sellers.
I dropped £63 on grimballs beasts without batting an eyelid because it gave me a 1500 point force to start with, that same amount only gets me the codex and a single squad for 40k.
Wargaming is very affordable so long as you avoid GW and pp.
The comparison that really drives home the absurdity of some of GW's pricing is Gundam models. They prove that it is entirely possible to make large, detailed plastic models meant for serious collectors at a fraction of what GW asks.
TheWaspinator wrote: The comparison that really drives home the absurdity of some of GW's pricing is Gundam models. They prove that it is entirely possible to make large, detailed plastic models meant for serious collectors at a fraction of what GW asks.
Well, yes... All you have to do is manufacture them in China or Taiwan, and sell around a thousand times more of them...
The thing is, GW's prices have always been far more about 'perceived value' rather than just reliant on the cost of manufacture.
I can afford wargaming be it flames of war, x-wing or the batman game.
What I can't do is buy 40k without feeling ripped off even from 3rd party sellers.
I dropped £63 on grimballs beasts without batting an eyelid because it gave me a 1500 point force to start with, that same amount only gets me the codex and a single squad for 40k.
Wargaming is very affordable so long as you avoid GW and pp.
Affordable is a relative term though. I'm finding 40k quite affordable so far, mostly through mercilessly exploiting ebay, but still. Maybe I could have my wargaming for even less if I went with FoW, King's of War or X-Wing but none of those games interest me on any level. As an analogy if you were a passionate fine whiskey drinker would you be tempted by someone telling you that you could get pissed for half the cost if you drank vodka instead?
Talizvar wrote: The definitions do not require the commodity to be "essential".
The definition does require it. It's implied in the "exploitative" part, you can't be exploiting someone merely by having high prices unless that person is compelled to buy your product no matter what you charge. If, like GW, you're selling a luxury product then people are free to stop buying if you set your prices too high. And if they keep buying it's because they feel that your product is worth the price you're charging, not because refusing to buy would be unacceptable harm.
If a big event is being held in a city and hotel rooms double in cost: that is price gouging (even more so if it is the ONLY hotel).
This is kind of a gray area, but it still has some element of "essential". It might not be literal life-or-death essential, but if your plans for the big event are going to be ruined if you can't find a hotel then you're pretty strongly compelled to pay for a hotel room (almost) no matter what the cost is. You can argue about whether or not this gray area is actually unethical behavior or just really frustrating to deal with, but it's clear that this is a situation that has nothing to do with GW's business practices.
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Azreal13 wrote: Something else costing more money has absolutely no relevance, because this is not necessarily something I'm interested in spending money on, whereas other war games being cheaper/more expensive does, as, this being a wargame forum, it's a reasonable assumption other games may be something that would appeal to a typical poster.
Sure, one particular item might not be a relevant comparison for you, but that doesn't negate the general point. If you don't find a comparison with $150/hour airplane rentals relevant (I find it very relevant, as the primary competition for 40k-level spending) there's probably something out there that is relevant for you. For example, perhaps you go out drinking with friends and can consider your bar bill per hour of entertainment vs. 40k costs per hour of entertainment. Or maybe you enjoy traveling and can consider the cost of a weekend trip vs. the cost of a new 40k army. When you consider the whole range of things potential 40k customers could also spend their hobby budget on you find that a lot of them make 40k look pretty cheap, and even more of them are at least on the same level as 40k.
I would maintain that an "essential" part of my life is leisure time of some sort.
My preferred means is tabletop miniature wargaming.
It is not just to play Warhammer 40k.
So I can and do buy for other game systems.
People take their hobbies seriously, hence the various emotional outbursts in this thread.
But yes, "essential" is all relative, eating and drinking and a roof over my head during the Canadian winters are a less optional necessity.
We will all rail at exclusive vs inclusive pursuits.
Sometimes people can be jerks and just want to keep the "riff-raff" out, whomever they may be.
What about these people are telling you, "The onus is on you for not having a 2nd or 3rd job to buy wh40k. You chose that army. Its your choice and your fault. You have a big CHIP on your shoulders for thinking its not your responsibility to shoulder the blame."
JohnHwangDD wrote: Exactly so! Mantic is a lot cheaper than GW, and it shows. For example:
I'll see your derp dragon and raise you a GW dragon, read em and weep!
Yeah it's a "you gets wat youse pays fer" thing.
I don't mind people going for a "made in china" miniature wargame to save some pennies, I'd probably have mixed 'n' matched some of the better mantic models in with GW models if WHFB hadn't been taken out and shot, they'll do well enough as back line unit fillers that no one really looks at anyway. It is begining to grate though all the pissing on GW all the time. If it's too rich, play something else and quit complaining, and let those of us who enjoy GW's offering well enough to soldier on under heavy price rises actually enjoy it. Is that too much to ask?
SolarCross wrote: It is begining to grate though all the pissing on GW all the time.
No one forced you to open this, read it, and post it in several times.
Models aside, even the cost of the rules is bordering on the obscene. Many games are free for their rules online, or offer much cheaper books for those inclined. In similar veins to GW's larger hardback books, you can get RPG books with several times the content for the price of a single codex these days. It doesn't add up.
Feel free to keep spending your own money on whatever you want, but people have a right to complain/rant/bitch about things that bother them with this game, and prices are a common and real problem for this game.
I took to torrenting the rules (you shouldnt, go and buy them) and proxying/scratch building a few years back when the prices for even a single box of Guardsmen got obscenely high.
These days the entry cost is beyond laughable as a single playable army can easily cost around £250+ for even the smallest and most basic one, and most price in at £400. And that is before paints. And then you have the rules and codexes. The rule book alone costs almost as much as a full 2000 point Bolt Action army and the codexes can easily cripple ones wallet.
Unit prices are obscenely high, especially for those armies that need lots of infantry such as Orks and the Imperial guard and many people do not have enough money to waste a couple of hundred pounds on just basic Infantry figures. And then you have the tanks. These kits, which are not even particularly well made, can cost upwards of £40. To give you some idea of that, one can purchase a 1/35 scale Churchill III with working spring suspension, a turned aluminium gun barrel, etched brass components and a very large amount of extras to allow for different theatre modifications.
Hell, the quality of most of the products is comparatively low when you consider just how much you are paying for it. Even the core rule book is terrible, with poorly written rules and pretty pictures of models where there was once beautiful art work.
GW's pricing is beyond stupid and beyond crazy. It is ludicrous.
No one forced you to open this, read it, and post it in several times.
Models aside, even the cost of the rules is bordering on the obscene. Many games are free for their rules online, or offer much cheaper books for those inclined. In similar veins to GW's larger hardback books, you can get RPG books with several times the content for the price of a single codex these days. It doesn't add up.
Feel free to keep spending your own money on whatever you want, but people have a right to complain/rant/bitch about things that bother them with this game, and prices are a common and real problem for this game.
Okay fair point. Isn't there some point though when you just get tired of complaining and feel it's time to just move on to another game?
Otherwise live in hope that these new fangled Start Collecting boxes are a hit for GW encouraging them to lower the price per model for future releases. It could happen, but look out alternative wargame companies if they do though. If an alt companies main selling point is being cheaper than GW then they will die fast if GW choose to become just as cheap whilst still being much more desirable.
The problem with moving on Solar Cross, is that people have already invested a lot within this game and it is also still extremely popular when compared to others. If I visit my club I can be sure to see many games of 40K taking place and maybe one or two other games in a corner somewhere.
Okay fair point. Isn't there some point though when you just get tired of complaining and feel it's time to just move on to another game?
Flip it around. Isn't there some point where you get tired of defending a company you just stop caring? This is a forum, people will rehash the same arguments over and over again because we always get new people who haven't seen those arguments get rehashed over and over. There's also the fun in going over old topics when something has recently changed to see if anyone has changed their views. Think of it less like complaining and more of a discussion.
And I'm sure the overwhelming majority of people who have complained about GW prices here or in the past have moved on to other games. Understand that 40k is still among the most popular wargame, so for many people they continue to play it in spite of its price and poor rules because all their friends still play it. If it makes you feel any better, I'm currently getting half a dozen people into BFG and X-wing, so I like I've moved on. The group still plays 40k, so I'm working on a (3rd party) IG army at the moment too.
If an alt companies main selling point is being cheaper than GW then they will die fast if GW choose to become just as cheap whilst still being much more desirable.
Yes and no. 40k has a lot of momentum behind it, but the rules are frankly garbage. One of the big selling points of other games is how great the rules are. I've taught X-wing to total newcomers to the wargaming hobby in 15mins. As in, the entire ruleset of X-wing in two starter matches. And yet, that game still offers much deeper tactical game play and better balance than 40k for a fraction of the cost.
Prices are a significant problem for 40k, but certainly not the only one. As Azreal likes to point out, its about value. If the rules were the best on the market, I'd be more willing to spend that $60CAD for a codex.
I think the aggravation about pricing, is a product of the over all mismanagement of the game. I would think that most wargammers from one time or another dabbled in 40k. And if 40k is the #1 wargamming company, than their customers make up the largest wargaming player base. Those customers are pissed off at how they've been treated and how the investment they've made into 1 company, WHOSE PRODUCT BY THE WAY, HAS TERRIBLE RESALE VALUE. SO IF YOU WANTED TO GET OUT FOR A CHEAPER HOBBY YOU'D be no better off burning your GW minis than trying to sell them for 1/5 the retail price+the expense of putting them together and painting them. Players wouldn't be as pissed off about the pricing if it was comparable to other companies. if they wern't required to buy new products to stay competitive every 6 months. if they didn't have to buy 3-5 books for their army. if they had fair and competitive rules for each army.
I think the GW apologists have it twisted when they say its a hobby, hobbies are expensive, if you don't like it gtfo. Warhammer is game - with a creative element.
Using the golf analogy presented earlier in the thread -
+First of all GW is not Golf. GW is the PGA. Miniature wargaming is golf.
+Golf can be expensive. Some people can afford new clubs, shoes, clothing right away and pay for a membership at a course(GW player). Others really want to play but can't afford it so they buy used equipment and play when they can at lower end courses.
+What the PGA doesn't do is have different rules at different courses, ie. At the masters players can have 2 bags worth of clubs and at the Open, players can only golf on one foot.(GW v Forgeworld)
+Players who buy callaway clubs vs players that buy nike clubs arn't all of a sudden better than every other player on the course (eldar vs every other army)
+The rules of the PGA don't change every year or 2 so that all players should to go out and buy helmets and shin guards because the PGA rule makers have added beating opponents with a club as a new rule. Sure you don't have to go get that new gear....but you won't stand a chance with out it.(CAD vs Decurion with unit taxes, power creep)
+The PGA doesn't hold a license on golf clubs and balls and all other equipment so that players who want to play golf with PGA rules have to buy PGA products that drastically change in price and have not kept up with the average golfers income.
The GW problem is unique. Likening it to a sport as a hobby is fallacy because of said golf analogy. Likening it to other hobbies is a fallacy because other hobbies don't FORCE YOU TO CHOOSE one manufacturer, that then dictates all facets of the hobby for you. ALSO many other hobbies actually give you something tangible as a by-product of the hobby time other than enjoyment. Like Quilting, Woodworking, Dog breeding, cooking, baking, etc...
MAYBE that's it. GW doesn't even give people the enjoyment they should at least be getting. When you go to use the models you painstakingly spent time on building and painting, they don't give you competent rule sets and keep forcing you to buy more to even have a chance at having fun. Winning is FUN. Anyone who disagrees is a fething liar.
I love the gaming and model building aspect. Painting is iffy. I've tried to get other friends into the game. Only myself and 1 buddy play. Everyone else is shocked by the cost and time commitments. And they hear the complaints about the game system and GW.
It's a hard hobby to sell to new people.
WAIT. I Have it. GW is a gd real life video game, an MMO like World of Warcraft.
You pay to play.
You have detailed character creation abilities
People who pay more than you have an advantage.
Once you think you're done and achieved all you can achieve, they release new content on you that you compulsively need to pay for again. because you've already spent to much time and money, and you're addicted. plastic crack is right...
You can always pay a little extra to get better gear to one up people
Nothing really ever changes. You're doing the same things over and over again.
You'll always complain about cheesy tactics and abilities
You've invested so much time and money into it that switching to another MMO is really an incredible undertaking. You'd have to level up a new character, collect all gear. You can't take your existing character(s) with you...they're not really compatible...
It's actually hard to get friends interested in an MMO you like. They may not be gripped by the same things that grip you. When you tell them the cost they're gonna bolt.
What about these people are telling you, "The onus is on you for not having a 2nd or 3rd job to buy wh40k. You chose that army. Its your choice and your fault. You have a big CHIP on your shoulders for thinking its not your responsibility to shoulder the blame."
Games Workshop has always been scum about this. Majority of the reasons why none of my friends can get into this damn hobby is because
of the bs they pull off with their prices. Half the time me and my friends have to buy used models off ebay just so we could have enough to get a game going. My local games store owner tried to justify Game's workshop's business model, saying how there are certain models that have to be expensive in order to balance the game and not have everyone with really over powered units. He also went to explain how there had also been a tin shortage a couple years back which caused the models to skyrocket in price. While that's true, it doesn't justify the fact that all it is is just a plastic mold that costs ¢19 to manufacture and then have to slap a $45 price tag at the end of it.
Hell, even Magic the Gathering is cheaper than this. And on top of all that, my friends now have to buy the citadel paint sets and brushes for yet again another $30 - $40. What the hell GW?
The reality is that a small plastic squad of 10 Space Marines should only have to cost $10 - $20, and then Tanks such as Rhino cost $25 - $35. If GWREALLY wanted to get more people on board with this hobby, why not make it, I don't know, more available and affordable?
How is this any different from buying a plastic toy G.I. Joe tank at ToysRUs for $30? Or any sized action figure for $15 compared to a $90 Wraithlord? Companies like Matel and Hasbro sell toys around those price ranges and they seem to be holding pretty well.
At the end of the day, it's all just an overpriced miniatures hobby with breakable plastic held together by crazy glue. (Great fluff though, it's up there with J.R.R Tolkien)
If my argument is flawed on how GW is practically keeping newcomers out with their expensive hobby, please point me out on details I got and enlighten me.
Edit: What I said about MTG being 'cheaper', I meant the starting fee into the hobby. A $20 starter deck vs. $85 - $240 starting army (varying on what race you choose).
GW is an expensive hobby but at the same time you dont have a clue what you are talking about...
If you want to play MTG and play to win, you will easily spend $1000's.
You are not just paying for a plastic mold. Do you think GW's employees work for free?
Ill try and be as short with this as possible.
- GW needs to pay their employees, benefits, 401k, insurance, etc.
- All their facilities also need to be maintained and of course rent comes in to play.
- All of their manufacturing lines cost a TON of money, I know I worked in the packaging and processing industry. They are not printing these models on some simple cheap 3D printer. They do runs on certain models and then their lines and models will need to be changed out. This depends on box size and of course the sprue. This could take hours which again costs $.
- With a company like GW I am sure they have engineers on staff to take care of their manufacturing line, which again costs $.
- They need to dump money into design and game research. New model designs don't appear in a magic box.
I'm sure there's more I'm missing. So if you think you are just paying for a plastic model and GW is laughing all the way to the bank you are very mistaken. If they were to charge what you consider to be a good price, they would go out of business very quickly.
This is a game, there needs to be price differences between models, just like MTG cards, and other games as well.
No one is forcing you to buy from GW or from your LGS. There are plenty of places that charge much less for new models.
In close, do more research before starting a rant about not being able to afford something. With your logic a Lamborghini should be the same price as a Toyota.. cause they are both just made of of metal......
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Naaris wrote: WHOSE PRODUCT BY THE WAY, HAS TERRIBLE RESALE VALUE. SO IF YOU WANTED TO GET OUT FOR A CHEAPER HOBBY YOU'D be no better off burning your GW minis than trying to sell them for 1/5 the retail price+the expense of putting them together and painting them.
If this is happening to you, you are doing something wrong... I've been selling painted minis for years and never once lost money. Even paying ebay fees I still make a good amount, which is what keeps me doing it and also helps me pay for my own personal models. Sometimes it may take a while to sell a model, but it will eventually sell.
Cost of entry is certainly formidable for most, and insurmountable for many.
We have a new player in our group (yay!), and we're trying to help him mash together a chaos army with the extra spare bits and bobs that people have accumulated. Otherwise, we wouldn't have a new player in our group due to cost of entry.
Having players use existing armies is another way to avoid the entry expense, but it takes the hobby out of the hobby, and for some reason I can emotionally but not logically understand, many people don't like playing with other people's armies.
Naaris wrote: WHOSE PRODUCT BY THE WAY, HAS TERRIBLE RESALE VALUE. SO IF YOU WANTED TO GET OUT FOR A CHEAPER HOBBY YOU'D be no better off burning your GW minis than trying to sell them for 1/5 the retail price+the expense of putting them together and painting them.
If this is happening to you, you are doing something wrong... I've been selling painted minis for years and never once lost money. Even paying ebay fees I still make a good amount, which is what keeps me doing it and also helps me pay for my own personal models. Sometimes it may take a while to sell a model, but it will eventually sell.
I've never sold anythng myself. Just going by the prices I've seen people setting on eBay, and Kijiji (ebay classifieds in canada), craigslist etc...
I feel like it's probably time for folks here to move onto a different hobby/game or re-evaluate your life choices if you really do feel a "starter army + codex + paint" is actually an insurmountable amount of money.
Start Collecting Box - $85 USD
Codex - $40-$60
Paint/Accessories to get started - $50
If you buy the following at any LGS you are highly likely to get some kind of discount, probably at-least 15%. So roughly $180-$200 to get you started into this Hobby. This is your starting point, this is not "buy everything needed to play all of my formations at 1500 & 1850 pt value games". With that being said if $200 USD is actually an insurmountable amount of money like some of you are acting like it is...move onto something more appropriate for your budget instead of flaming the Hobby.
Blacksails wrote: Can you quote anyone who's said the prices represent an insurmountable amount of money?
Oh, and don't forget that you'll need to buy a rulebook, which'll be another $100.
That would probably be me. 'Insurmountable' was a bit overdramatic, but we all know that many people can't spare $280-$300 bucks to start a hobby.
Then those people should stop trying to live outside of their budget, and after they do that and learn how simple economics work they should also stop logging online to try and justify their own personal reasons why they can't get into said Hobby.
Great, one person used the word insurmountable and then admitted it was over dramatic.
The more sensible people in this thread have explained that the prices for 40k are not in line with several other related products. The rules are probably one of the easiest ones to use as an example.
Yes, people can save, or not play at all, or play other games entirely. All of these things represent a barrier to entry that doesn't have to be there to the degree it is, hence the widespread and common complaints about this game in particular in the wargaming hobby.
If the rules alone for 40k were priced more reasonably (or free like several other games/included with the models), the entry cost goes down significantly ($160 worth, being one and a half times a start collecting box) and makes the game much more appealing to all.
*Edit* I also don't understand the poor attitude some people have here. If someone says they think its too expensive and its stopping them (or friends) from playing, telling them get lost and say its not for them is a gakky attitude to have. At the very least, offer some alternatives or have some kind of sympathy or empathy.
Blacksails wrote: Can you quote anyone who's said the prices represent an insurmountable amount of money?
Oh, and don't forget that you'll need to buy a rulebook, which'll be another $100.
That would probably be me. 'Insurmountable' was a bit overdramatic, but we all know that many people can't spare $280-$300 bucks to start a hobby.
Then those people should stop trying to live outside of their budget, and after they do that and learn how simple economics work they should also stop logging online to try and justify their own personal reasons why they can't get into said Hobby.
I guess when the Grand Poobah speaks, who are the little people to argue?
Blacksails wrote: *Edit* I also don't understand the poor attitude some people have here. If someone says they think its too expensive and its stopping them (or friends) from playing, telling them get lost and say its not for them is a gakky attitude to have. At the very least, offer some alternatives or have some kind of sympathy or empathy.
So instead of being real and down right honest about the situation of someone complaining that they can't afford this Hobby (40k) and lack of money is the #1 reason all their friends can't get into the hobby you would rather me lie? Yes you could probably find some second hand models from somewhere or build some things from scratch but if you want the real deal, well you are going to pay for the real deal then aren't you?
I can't walk into a Honda dealership and tell them to take one of their Sedans and make it look like and perform like an Audi S4 and sell it to me for the price of the Honda can I? Nope, not how the real world works.
You get what you pay for at the end of the day in all things in life, and even though we are talking about a Game/Hobby it definitely applies here.
The truth generally tends to make people feel uncomfortable one way or another and I'm not about to sit on here and tell people that a rainbow unicorn island of models equivalent to what GW sells exist and you can get it all for half the price!!! Not happening.
Ill try and be as short with this as possible.
- GW needs to pay their employees, benefits, 401k, insurance, etc.
- All their facilities also need to be maintained and of course rent comes in to play.
- All of their manufacturing lines cost a TON of money, I know I worked in the packaging and processing industry. They are not printing these models on some simple cheap 3D printer. They do runs on certain models and then their lines and models will need to be changed out. This depends on box size and of course the sprue. This could take hours which again costs $.
- With a company like GW I am sure they have engineers on staff to take care of their manufacturing line, which again costs $.
- They need to dump money into design and game research. New model designs don't appear in a magic box.
The same can be said about every other model manufacturing company out there. Virtually all of them offer cheaper products than GW. If GW has a problem because their costs have got too high, then it's their problem, not mine.
BTW, about the incredibly derpy Mantic "dragons", those models have been out of production for a while. And you know who's even derpier and more expensive?
There's telling people the truth, and then there's being an ass.
As I've pointed out, we can have a reasonable discussion about this topic without devolving into people on their high horse shouting down to the peasants about how the real world works and to just not buy it if you think its too expensive.
Game would also be cheaper if players would simply decide "screw GW-officialdom". As long as players insist on following what GW says they are at the mercy of GW's pricing strategies.
tneva82 wrote: Game would also be cheaper if players would simply decide "screw GW-officialdom". As long as players insist on following what GW says they are at the mercy of GW's pricing strategies.
Oddly enough, I pay more for my 3rd party models than if I went with GW plastics.
tneva82 wrote: Game would also be cheaper if players would simply decide "screw GW-officialdom". As long as players insist on following what GW says they are at the mercy of GW's pricing strategies.
Oddly enough, I pay more for my 3rd party models than if I went with GW plastics.
What is your 3rd party models you are using then? I am curious.
Not talking just models. Though obviously more liberal use of alternative models helps. But whole rule thing. GW keeps changing rules and codexes so that you need to keep up buying more models. They keep decreasing point sizes so model sizes goes up.
To have playable force this days requires LOT more models than it used to.
Get rid of that and you would get rid of constant need of buying new models just to keep up with rule changes.
Blacksails wrote: There's telling people the truth, and then there's being an ass.
As I've pointed out, we can have a reasonable discussion about this topic without devolving into people on their high horse shouting down to the peasants about how the real world works and to just not buy it if you think its too expensive.
Well I've not called anyone a peasant, but do feel free to take what I said out of context and make up whatever words/reasoning you wish to try and justify whatever is you think is right or wrong rather than facing the actual truth of the matter.
Sally doesn't have enough time or money to play Golf as much as she would like to, especially on the nice Spring/Summer days. Sally has multiple hobbies which is one of the reasons she cannot/has not devoted more time/money to playing Golf. Sally doesn't spend time on the internet forums for Golf ranting about how she can't afford it because of other things she has going on in life. Sally is a realist.
master of ordinance wrote: The problem with moving on Solar Cross, is that people have already invested a lot within this game and it is also still extremely popular when compared to others. If I visit my club I can be sure to see many games of 40K taking place and maybe one or two other games in a corner somewhere.
If people have already "invested" into 40k, then they probably don't need to buy any more stuff.
Blacksails wrote: The peasant thing was a joke, but humour doesn't seem to be your forte.
And remember that you're here on the internet ranting as much as anyone. Plus, no one made you open this thread and comment in it several times.
This entire thread is humorous to me. We are just gonna have to agree to disagree here champ. This thread kept making it to the top of the General Section so I got interested and clicked. RIP my brain.
Thing is, no matter what hobby you get into its gonna cost a lot to get into it.
No one i forcing you to buy GW modeling supplies or paints so you cant try to stick that to GW.
Rules yes, they are expensive, but that is only part of the hobby, besides every shop i have been to has the rules for free, let alone all the video online that explain how to play and how to use each rule. Additionally most stores have a store copy of he codex, but even then they are a lot cheaper now then they were.
The models, yes they are expensive for what they are, fancy plastic bits, but here is the thing, there are other companies besides GW! IF you are in it for the modeling aspect, and dont want to pay GW, there are dozens of alternatives. If you wanna play the game, you are gonna pay the prices, ill use the video game example. I love MMOs, but if i dont think WoW is worth the cost, i can either pay to play it, or play another MMO. No one is forcing you to play GW stuff.
You CAN get your moneys worth out of every box. I can buy a box of terminators for 50 bucks, they will take me a whole week to cut, shave, pin, prime, paint and base. So you cant really say they are not worth the price, if you hap hazerdly slop paint on them. Hell i know painters that take a day for 1 mini, and it looks amazing.
This is like every other hobbies out there. You are going to get out, what you put in. So if you put in 200 bucks, but only hap haphazardly care about modeling them, or the rules/game, yeah your not going to have a good time with it/feel ripped off.
If you invest 200 bucks and pain painstakingly detail your models, and go all in on making a sweet fluffy/comp army (If comp is your thing,) Then you are gonna get a lot more value outta the hobby
TL;DR:
Hobbies are expensive, you get out what you put in, Dont like it then dont play it, and make do with what you have.
Backspacehacker wrote: Thing is, no matter what hobby you get into its gonna cost a lot to get into it.
No one i forcing you to buy GW modeling supplies or paints so you cant try to stick that to GW.
Rules yes, they are expensive, but that is only part of the hobby, besides every shop i have been to has the rules for free, let alone all the video online that explain how to play and how to use each rule. Additionally most stores have a store copy of he codex, but even then they are a lot cheaper now then they were.
The models, yes they are expensive for what they are, fancy plastic bits, but here is the thing, there are other companies besides GW! IF you are in it for the modeling aspect, and dont want to pay GW, there are dozens of alternatives. If you wanna play the game, you are gonna pay the prices, ill use the video game example. I love MMOs, but if i dont think WoW is worth the cost, i can either pay to play it, or play another MMO. No one is forcing you to play GW stuff.
You CAN get your moneys worth out of every box. I can buy a box of terminators for 50 bucks, they will take me a whole week to cut, shave, pin, prime, paint and base. So you cant really say they are not worth the price, if you hap hazerdly slop paint on them. Hell i know painters that take a day for 1 mini, and it looks amazing.
This is like every other hobbies out there. You are going to get out, what you put in. So if you put in 200 bucks, but only hap haphazardly care about modeling them, or the rules/game, yeah your not going to have a good time with it/feel ripped off.
If you invest 200 bucks and pain painstakingly detail your models, and go all in on making a sweet fluffy/comp army (If comp is your thing,) Then you are gonna get a lot more value outta the hobby
TL;DR:
Hobbies are expensive, you get out what you put in, Dont like it then dont play it, and make do with what you have.
Yep. I'd love to see some of these peoples faces when you explain/show them the cost of something like....let's say Bow Hunting.
I'll never go broke bass fishing. There's lots of cheap hobbies...some are even free.
There's plenty of ways to mitigate the costs of 40K, as well. Helps to have generous friends, but you can do stuff like stretch out boxes with bits, scratch build, etc.
jasper76 wrote: I'll never go broke bass fishing. There's lots of cheap hobbies...some are even free.
There's plenty of ways to mitigate the costs of 40K, as well. Helps to have generous friends, but you can do stuff like stretch out boxes with bits, scratch build, etc.
Exactly, i lived out of a cigar box with 40 for my first year until i was able to actually buy a box for it all. All things considering 40k is a pretty cheap hobbies you can do all year round with out any problems.
Ill try and be as short with this as possible.
- GW needs to pay their employees, benefits, 401k, insurance, etc.
- All their facilities also need to be maintained and of course rent comes in to play.
- All of their manufacturing lines cost a TON of money, I know I worked in the packaging and processing industry. They are not printing these models on some simple cheap 3D printer. They do runs on certain models and then their lines and models will need to be changed out. This depends on box size and of course the sprue. This could take hours which again costs $.
- With a company like GW I am sure they have engineers on staff to take care of their manufacturing line, which again costs $.
- They need to dump money into design and game research. New model designs don't appear in a magic box.
The same can be said about every other model manufacturing company out there. Virtually all of them offer cheaper products than GW. If GW has a problem because their costs have got too high, then it's their problem, not mine.
BTW, about the incredibly derpy Mantic "dragons", those models have been out of production for a while. And you know who's even derpier and more expensive?
Spoiler:
No its not the same. No table top gaming company is like GW. GW is much bigger then the rest. Most others are much smaller and you also may not need as many models to play the game.
Smaller = Less employees, less manufacturing, less manufacturing lines, less benefits/insurance/salaries to pay out.
A lot of these companies run out of a small shed of a warehouse, or legit out of a garage... How do I know? Because of I have rented/sold them equipment to package their models. A lot of their models are even co packed/produced by other manufacturing companies, which is probably why their detail looks like garbage....you can't compare them to GW and if you do you have screws loose.
"If GW has a problem because their costs have got too high, then it's their problem, not mine." - if its a problem for you, guess what don't buy them, no one is forcing you.
Blacksails wrote: *Edit* I also don't understand the poor attitude some people have here. If someone says they think its too expensive and its stopping them (or friends) from playing, telling them get lost and say its not for them is a gakky attitude to have. At the very least, offer some alternatives or have some kind of sympathy or empathy.
I tend to think that there are a few things not being said about how these friends "Can't get into this hobby".
As you stated, there are other alternatives like buying used that can help this problem dramatically.
I see many "complaints" that the resale can sometimes be very poor with GW miniatures unless "expert painted" really is.
I think the poor attitude responding back may be that the demand or "entitlement" for more affordable miniatures, most likely new and not moving on to other possibly "better" games is disingenuine: it is making people detect some BS in the air.
There are the starter army kits or if you look, there are "push together" models for marines and imperial guard I used extensively for a really good price break for bulking up troops.
I really like Ferraris, love them in fact.
I could possibly buy one but it would hurt enough to kill the budget on necessities (and get it repossessed when I cannot afford an oil change).
I drive a Grand Caravan... I do have to on occasion suck it up and give things I want a pass.
40k for me has been seeing some hibernation due to me not liking the rules much but the cost is no small consideration.
I guess it is hard to have sympathy when someone rages over not being able to afford a leisure item: it is a part of life.
I have an adopted son because the birth-mother chose regularly a pack of cigarettes or a pretty dress over feeding her baby or buying diapers... we all make choices and live with the consequences.
Some comments:
1. You can teach your kid to play. And set up a permanent game table in the basement, rather than dragging all of the stuff up and down. Make a nice gaming space down there.
Believe me, I have my plans and schemes to nerdify my children. Sadly, one is a toddler, and the other still in her mother's womb for a couple more months. I have, however, managed to get my two year old to paint a Blood Angel for me. Which is excellent; I mean, who enjoys painting red?" (Although it is easier with base colors. Back in my day we had to make due with "Blood Red", uphill both ways!)
2. My friends and I have also switched mostly to boardgaming: Memoir '44, BattleLore, Super Dungeon Explore, Flames of War (Open Fire! boxed set), Zombicide, X-wing, and so on. My rule for new games is that it ALL fits in ONE box (or storage tub). Having less "stuff" for the game simplifies the whole process tremendously.
So agreed - there's nothing as nice as that rare time a box game all fits nicely back into its box, maybe in a battlefoam tray, all snug and complete and intact. I haven't taken them up on it yet, but I love that GW has made so many board games lately. Something like Calth or Killteam goes a long way toward scratching that 40k itch, in a (comparatively) tiny space.
It is if you're only playing crap cards and seconds out of a shoebox...
But that's the same as only playing the 40k BfV starter and never getting anything else. Apples to oranges argument, really.
If you're actually playing Magic; then you're doing FNM at $20 each; playing Standard at $200+ per quarter; or playing an Eternal format with a several-thousand USD minimum buy-in.
Magic is significantly more expensive than 40k, and the obvious evidence is how every card shop makes money hand over fist, while every gaming store folds.
All I can think of is that line in Starship Troopers, when Johnny turns and says "We're the old men, Ace."
It sneaks up on you quick, like when you realize Starship Troopers is almost twenty years old now...
Believe me, I have my plans and schemes to nerdify my children. Sadly, one is a toddler, and the other still in her mother's womb for a couple more months. I have, however, managed to get my two year old to paint a Blood Angel for me. Which is excellent; I mean, who enjoys painting red?" (Although it is easier with base colors. Back in my day we had to make due with "Blood Red", uphill both ways!)
So agreed - there's nothing as nice as that rare time a box game all fits nicely back into its box, maybe in a battlefoam tray, all snug and complete and intact. I haven't taken them up on it yet, but I love that GW has made so many board games lately. Something like Calth or Killteam goes a long way toward scratching that 40k itch, in a (comparatively) tiny space.
And to you! The best part of getting old, is that you have bigger joys and problems than Warhammer. (But it's still fun to throw the dice)
Thanks, you too! My boys are old enough to start, and we'll play more this summer, so you'll get there soon enough. Though you're in the tough part of the haul, no doubt. I basically did nothing for a few years, so I know where you're at. Paint-wise, I'm a fan of colored primer, and I won't basecoat anything ever again. I bought IKR for the Knights, built & played one for 40k, on the fence whether I should build or sell the 2nd... 1500 or smaller games of 40k are great, give time to kick back and shoot the breeze while pushing little toys around, making pew-pew noises. Seeing the new in my kids faces is pretty amazing.
It is if you're only playing crap cards and seconds out of a shoebox...
But that's the same as only playing the 40k BfV starter and never getting anything else. Apples to oranges argument, really.
If you're actually playing Magic; then you're doing FNM at $20 each; playing Standard at $200+ per quarter; or playing an Eternal format with a several-thousand USD minimum buy-in.
Magic is significantly more expensive than 40k, and the obvious evidence is how every card shop makes money hand over fist, while every gaming store folds.
Can I add to this man? I love your points 95% of the time so I want to add to this.
Furthermore - people state the best way to get cards in MtG is through doing well at FNM.
Now, bear in mind you already have an insanely expensive buy in to get a decent tier deck for Standard (which hilariously will rotate out and cease to be viable in Modern or Legacy because 'balance' has improved meaning newer cards are pure gak outside of Standard 95% of the time, so if you want to exploit that Eternal Format it costs EVEN MORE money - and while your deck won't rotate out in an Eternal Format rulings and banlists could slap your deck straight down - Eldrazi Temple anyone?) and FNM on a regular basis isn't cheap....
And if you're unfortunate enough to play in an area that has regular MtG tournament attendees....you're not getting those prize cards either as they'll be the ones winning. And they won't just pass you down the quality cards. Oh no, those things sell rather well and can be traded in, further funding them.
MtG is literally an uphill struggle of money.
As I said earlier in this thread... you may balk at the cost of a squad of Space Marines/Orks/Eldar Guardians - but in 20 years time your core troop choices will have exactly the same armaments and still be viable as what they are. And ultimately, those will be the bulk of your army.
Only one army had its base troop choice gain any major variance in their armament - Tyranids and this was when they introduced Spinefists and Devourers as Gaunt options back in the 3rd ed book. Space Marines, CSM, Orks, Eldar Guards? All the same. Same with DE Warriors, Necron Warriors, SoB and Tau Fire Warriors - your base armament is constant.
At most you might have to buy a single squad or some bits to convert over special or heavy weapons depending on meta changes...
Yeah, I'm still using the same Grey Hunters that I bought in the 90s.
GW is expensive. My son and wife also started now and they only picked up used models.
Everyone is talking about cheap alternatives. What? Where? I have never ever seen any nice and cheap models that would mix well with GW. Sure, Victoria minis are nice and better than what GW sells for IG, but they are also more expensive.
Other games are only less expensive because the the model count is lower, the rules are cheaper/free and/or the models are not that great. But model for model is not really much more expensive than other companies, except character clampacks maybe.
Most other hobbies are expensive. My boss does RC car racing. He burnt tires for 80€ in one day. Hell, even running is expensive. Have you an idea what special sports clothing and running shoes cost?
I'm not happy with GW prices, but I can (must?) live with them. You just have to carefully chose what and where you buy. I.e. I love the knight model, but I always found it to be too expensive. But IKR with a 20% discount was a definitive buy for me.
I mean, I own an incredibly diverse collection. I own more armies than I don't own, and some of them I own over 8k points in. I've been buying into this game, heavily, since 3rd edition. The current cost to me isn't a big deal...I haven't bought a rulebook since 5th, I just download everything (for 3rd, 4th, and 5th, I own everything).
The reason the high cost is so...difficult to me, personally, is I can't get anyone into the hobby. The first game is extremely expensive. Here is what it'll cost for a first game;
Rulebook, $100
Codex $ 40-50
Paint and other items $20-30
Mini's, usually around 50 per box, often need 4 boxes to start playing (2 Troops, HQ, one other thing).
So that's what, over 300 to start? And that's a 500 point game, hopefully. You can buy second hand, often at a 20-25% discount, which will help (about $75 off).
The starter sets were a great idea, but GW messed up there. They aren't available for every army, you and your friend have to want to play the armies in the box (not enough variety to pick and choose) and the armies are often not balanced (DV anyone?). Imagine buying DV and you pick chaos. You are in for some rough games and will feel cheated until you buy the codexes and find out you were playing at a huge handicap.
Compare this to WM/H, where for $135 you can get an all in one box that is 70 out of the 100 points you need. The rules are free, and the codex is about $5 and available on an Ipad with an army builder app (though to be fair, you often need 2 for mercs or minions). The all in one boxes are usually competitive choices and priced very well. Battle boxes are also a good deal, and WM/H encourages journeyman leagues.
I'm not getting into the rules and support, but comparing GW to other mini games is crazy. They are way more expensive. Keep in mind, the majority of my friends are professors, engineers, business owners...we aren't hurting for cash here. But its hard to convince someone to get 20 minis and 2 books instead of a Ps4, which is usually the argument. In WM/H, I'm asking them not to buy 2 video games with DLC and they are nearly ready to play.
Sure, other hobbies are pricey. I used to do MTG and moved to 40k because it was cheaper in the long run during 3rd edition. I play golf. I go hunting, scuba diving, fishing...all of these are very expensive. But if I want to hunt, I can decide what to hunt but I can't decide not to hunt. I can decide where to dive but I can't decide not to dive. With GW, if I want to play mini war games, I can just play something else.
I find for "pick-up" games 40k is a bit of a loser in my area.
It is because of their choices in making entry into their game hard I HAD to move-on to other systems: that is where everyone else is.
No sense being angry at GW for choices that are hurting their business even if they refuse to acknowledge that raising price and reducing quantity does not increase profit margin if the customer purchases are ramping down faster.
Pick up games for 40k have their own issues, mainly the rules and incredible imbalance going on. I can't do PUGs in 40k and haven't been able to since the end of 5th. That's strictly a WM/H or X-wing thing. Or guild ball.
master of ordinance wrote: The problem with moving on Solar Cross, is that people have already invested a lot within this game and it is also still extremely popular when compared to others. If I visit my club I can be sure to see many games of 40K taking place and maybe one or two other games in a corner somewhere.
If people have already "invested" into 40k, then they probably don't need to buy any more stuff.
Until GW changes the scale of the game or makes everything that they have irrelevant meaning that they have to buy even more.
I personally just wish more people could get into the game easier.
I'm not complaining about the prices for myself, I can afford more than I buy at gw, it just sucks that my group would more than double in size with more reasonable prices. I want more people to play the game.
It's about more than "people living beyond their budget" as was mentioned earlier. The prices don't bother me for myself, I can pay the price, and most kits are worth their money to me personally.. What saddens me is that the game doesn't seem reasonable to people even slightly below my income level. It would be better at least for my local scene if the game was slightly cheaper.
I think it would go a long way towards helping this issue if they simply reduced prices on kits that are extremely old sculpts that they've more than made profit on already. Then they can keep prices where they are on newer kits, while still having more incentive for people to start playing.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Magic is significantly more expensive than 40k, and the obvious evidence is how every card shop makes money hand over fist, while every gaming store folds.
Furthermore - people state the best way to get cards in MtG is through doing well at FNM.
while your deck won't rotate out in an Eternal Format rulings and banlists could slap your deck straight down - Eldrazi Temple anyone?
As I said earlier in this thread... you may balk at the cost of a squad of Space Marines/Orks/Eldar Guardians - but in 20 years time your core troop choices will have exactly the same armaments and still be viable as what they are. And ultimately, those will be the bulk of your army.
40k is a long term investment tbh.
I'm skeptical of FNM being best way to get cards. I think it's still box buy plus singles, if you know what you're looking for. FNM is just a way for spreading out that box buy over several weeks.
To be fair, banning something like Temple only affects a small portion of your deck, once you've taken the HUGE step and bought your core cards. Although, to be fair, the thing that replaced 1.5 is completely different from what I used to play. Oh, well...
You are right that I'm still playing with my original Eldar Harlequins and Aspects and monopose Guardians. Along with my Tallarn Guardsmen. Those OOP models are good pretty much forever.
Over the long term, 40k is not unreasonable, and much cheaper than Magic.
JohnHwangDD wrote: If people have already "invested" into 40k, then they probably don't need to buy any more stuff.
Until GW changes the scale of the game or makes everything that they have irrelevant meaning that they have to buy even more.
The biggest thing that people need to understand is that you don't have to play with the new stuff if you don't want to. Just agree to play small stuff or old school, and it's fine.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The biggest thing that people need to understand is that you don't have to play with the new stuff if you don't want to. Just agree to play small stuff or old school, and it's fine.
Been saying that for a while. I play 2nd ed so I got nice start of eldar army by buying(new) battleforce+start collecting box. Didn't cost that much and gives me already 1000 pts or so.
Say striking scorpion+wraithlord+one other box and I'm pushing on 1500 pts which is pretty standard size for game already.
For price LESS than 7th ed army I can get easily 3200+ pts army. That's huge game in 2nd ed terms.
A lot of things are expensive in the world. Doesn't matter if it's 40K, MtG, Warmahordes, Golf, Scuba diving, Car racing or car restoration, what ever. It doesn't matter how much it costs, the person finds it is worth it.
It all comes to worth. If you don't find it worth it, but want it, then you make excuses for not buying. Simple as that. I am not defending GW at all. As I said, I believe a lot of their products are not worth the price they are asking for. So I vote with my wallet. It seems a lot of people are voting with their wallet now.
Good thing to. I have discovered so many other games that are worth it and I buy them now as well as some GW products that I still find worth in it.
But to keep saying MtG is expensive so what. It is worth it to those people. It's not about price, but about worth. Maybe those people find more worth in spending $200 on MtG but will balk at a $200 GW purchase. Why? Maybe because the rules are more clear,consice and tighter than what GW offers. So right there, it is worth it for the person.
I will drop $200 on MtG for my son because it's worth it to see the joy and fun he is having with it. I bought him a $200 Necron stuff for him and he did nothing with it because of the crappy rules he finds boring as he says.
So again it doesn't matter if MtG is expensive, for a lot of people it is worth it, just like for how a lot of people find 40K worth it while others don't. Price doesn't matter. After all if price mattered we all would be going to the dollar store and buying our plastic toy soldiers there. We don't so it's not the price but the worth. We find that dollar store toy soldiers are not worth it. Be it money, time or effort to convert them.
But the funny thing about reality is that it doesn't give a crap. It is what it is.
And the stark reality is the GW is (has been) pricing themselves out of business. The financial reports don't lie. Number of sales has been steadily dropping. A year or so the only reason they made any profit was from their royalties off of THQ games.
They have borrowed money to pay dividends.
Yes consoles are $300. But to play a new game is only $60. Can you start a second 40k army for $60?
Davor wrote: A lot of things are expensive in the world. Doesn't matter if it's 40K, MtG, Warmahordes, Golf, Scuba diving, Car racing or car restoration, what ever. It doesn't matter how much it costs, the person finds it is worth it.
There is some truth to that, but you're comparing between activities a bit.
Let's take Scuba Diving for example. My girlfriend and I will bring out dive equipment with us on vacation, and obviously this is crazy expensive. Not only the initial costs of the equipment, but the hotel, flight, guide, and then restaurants...it all adds up. however, we see things we couldn't see normally.
I can, however, wake her up early and drive down to a local dive spot if we want to.
It's all diving, but one is clearly less expensive. We both make 6 figures, so can afford it, but her sister just does local since she barely clears 35k a year. We all get to dive, but one of us is spending more money than the other.
The same is true with golf, car racing and restoration. There are various levels of cost depending on how involved you are.
GW is basically charging luxury costs without providing luxury quality. For how much more expensive it is, and older, it should be superior to WM/H in most ways. It's not. Fluff is probably the biggest area they dominate in, as well as appearance, though the two are subjective. The rules are much worse in 40k, the games play out with less strategy/tactics, and the PUG environment is awful currently. It used to not be this way, but lately its gone downhill while prices are going higher and higher.
It all comes to worth. If you don't find it worth it, but want it, then you make excuses for not buying. Simple as that. I am not defending GW at all. As I said, I believe a lot of their products are not worth the price they are asking for. So I vote with my wallet. It seems a lot of people are voting with their wallet now.
Good thing to. I have discovered so many other games that are worth it and I buy them now as well as some GW products that I still find worth in it.
Right, I think the problem comes from the following;
some people view GW as the hobby . It's not, mini wargaming is the hobby, and you have other choices now. If that's worth it to you, great, but it's not GW and nothing else compares like some are claiming. That would like me saying you can't compare two sets of clubs, or two dive spots, or what have you.
But to keep saying MtG is expensive so what. It is worth it to those people. It's not about price, but about worth. Maybe those people find more worth in spending $200 on MtG but will balk at a $200 GW purchase. Why? Maybe because the rules are more clear,consice and tighter than what GW offers. So right there, it is worth it for the person.
I guess it depends how expensive MtG is compared to the other card games. Is it really bad compared to pokemon or one of the others? I don't know, I only played MtG and that was a long time ago. If MtG is, there might be other draws. The game might be easier to pick up (in terms of rules and finding games), it could be more balanced, it could have better support...there are many reasons why people might pay more.
But for GW there aren't as many reasons, where once there was. I think that's where people are becoming upset. I don't play much anymore (I only came back to 40k when Mk3 came out, I needed a break from the rules and salt).
To be fair, WM/H models are more expensive than GW models, and more cartoony.
Compared to WM/H, GW has better
* fluff (40k),
* variety/range (40k & AoS),
* models (40k & AoS), both detail and assembly.
GW also has huge models on a scale that WM/H cannot approach.
WM/H is better at:
* external competitive balance
Basically GW is better than WM/H at everything *except* being a game to play.
Both suck at internal faction balance, and this is nothing new. If you care about competition, then yeah, you will get more value out of WM/H. If you care about anything else, then GW is "better".
But the idea that WM/H is cheaper? Not when you look at what people actually buy...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Talizvar wrote: It all boils down to:
I have $50 to spend on "fun".
What kind of fun can I get from GW for $50?
We are in a time spoiled for choice and I can easily find things more "shiny" than GW product as they keep upping the price.
What's funny is that you need to use $50 to make your point. Why, back in my day, $20 would have been enough to buy a brand new Eldar Dreadnought with the a range of metal weapons, including a D-cannon.
JohnHwangDD wrote: To be fair, WM/H models are more expensive than GW models, and more cartoony.
Compared to WM/H, GW has better
* fluff (40k)
Opinion.
* variety/range (40k & AoS),
As a gamer you generally have a handful of valid choices and a bunch of chaff. Choice without actual choice is no choice at all
* models (40k & AoS), both detail and assembly
One could say detail, another could say excessive greeble and lack of design restraint.
.
GW also has huge models on a scale that WM/H cannot approach.
Except all the Collossals and Gargantuans you mean?
WM/H is better at:
* external competitive balance
Basically GW is better than WM/H at everything *except* being a game to play.
Seems that's pretty important for a lot of folks though, don't it?
Both suck at internal faction balance, and this is nothing new. If you care about competition, then yeah, you will get more value out of WM/H. If you care about anything else, then GW is "better".
How's MkIII? Serious question, just dipping my toe in, I've bought all I need to play with some variety (including 2 casters) for £50 brand new.
JohnHwangDD wrote: To be fair, WM/H models are more expensive than GW models, and more cartoony.
Here we will have to beg to differ. GW's sculpts look like something from a childrens cartoon, such as Scooby Doo.
Compared to WM/H, GW has better
Age?
* models (40k & AoS), both detail and assembly.
Not really. Look at the most recent releases with vast amounts of over the top muscle detail, skulls nailed everywhere and excess Things. They look horrible.
GW also has huge models on a scale that WM/H cannot approach.
Colossals. Those things are as big if not bigger than an Imperial Knight and they look better to boot.
WM/H is better at:
* external competitive balance
And internal balance too. Even the suboptimal choices can be useful.
Basically GW is better than WM/H at everything *except* being a game to play.
Nah, GW is better at being old and stale. Just about everything about WM is at least on par with GW's stuff and if not then it is usually better.
Both suck at internal faction balance, and this is nothing new.
Not really, as I said above even the less then perfect choices in Warmachine are still good. I run a Bloat Thrall and it is extremely useful even though it is less than optimal.
If you care about competition, then yeah, you will get more value out of WM/H.
Agreed. If you care about casual games you get a lot more too as the power disparity is no where near the level of 40K's.
If you care about anything else, then GW is "better".
Not really, the only thing GW is good for these days is being famous and over charging its customers.
But the idea that WM/H is cheaper? Not when you look at what people actually buy...
Because PP know that they dont have to charge through the roof to make a profit and they know that if they charge less they will actually make more.
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Talizvar wrote: It all boils down to:
I have $50 to spend on "fun".
What kind of fun can I get from GW for $50?
We are in a time spoiled for choice and I can easily find things more "shiny" than GW product as they keep upping the price.
What's funny is that you need to use $50 to make your point. Why, back in my day, $20 would have been enough to buy a brand new Eldar Dreadnought with the a range of metal weapons, including a D-cannon.
What is funny is that this just proves how horrendous GW's pricing has become.
Talizvar wrote: It all boils down to:
I have $50 to spend on "fun".
What kind of fun can I get from GW for $50?
We are in a time spoiled for choice and I can easily find things more "shiny" than GW product as they keep upping the price.
What's funny is that you need to use $50 to make your point. Why, back in my day, $20 would have been enough to buy a brand new Eldar Dreadnought with the a range of metal weapons, including a D-cannon.
Oh please.
Do we need to pull out the "back in the day"?
I have the "pleasure" of turning 47 this year, I am sure I can wax poetic about how I used to get a 20-man box of Imperial Guard for dirt.
(Wonder how many times over they made their money on that mold?)
Or how the original Apocalypse packs were actual DEALS rather than their funny "one click purchase" since we are really tired of clicking rather than saving money.
I am unsure where that point was going since the topic is that right now some "friends" seem to not be able to justify buying into 40k.
You are correct however that $50 was targeted: it seemed to be an entry price to be able to buy anything useful with GW.
BUT I see the push together 5 Cadians for $12 are there.
So for $24 you can have 10 guys without all the extra bits the $35 Cadian Shock Troop box gives.
For ~$15 you can buy an X-wing at FFG!
I still maintain that since some of us old types can eventually get sick of our collections and sell them off.
Plus since they were "cheap" back in the day, we would sell pretty low.
Speaking of "sick", I could mention "estate" sales... typically the wife has no idea what the man-dollies are or what they are worth.
Since we are on the topic of "old" and the game has been around longer than most.
honestly, i think that both GW and PP have a lot of products that are not worth parting with my money to own...
GW Finecast and PP restic are automatic passes for me...
there are zero of either in my collection...
neither are worth the frustration of the prep needed...
PP metals and proper resin, and now HIPS, are totally worth collecting, as are the GW metal and HIPS models, and FW resin, for me...
PP paints, washes, and inks, and GW Technical paints get my money...
i enjoy the books from both companies for the art and fiction...
there are good and bad examples of product quality on both sides of that argument...
it doesn't have to be one or the other...
it is possible to enjoy both
both are expensive, but i would say that neither are over-priced if they provide enjoyment, and thus value for the money spent...
OK, without you telling me the base diameter, there's no way for me to guess how big it is.
Using the base as the measuring basis, the body is about 6" tall, so it's roughly comparable to a modern GW End Times kit. Smaller than a Stompa, for sure.
JohnHwangDD wrote:OK, without you telling me the base diameter, there's no way for me to guess how big it is.
Using the base as the measuring basis, the body is about 6" tall, so it's roughly comparable to a modern GW End Times kit. Smaller than a Stompa, for sure.
So the regular human sized model in that picture makes it impossible to judge the size? The Imperial Knight is around 7" tall, so using the other model you asked for comparison to, the body is, by your own estimate, almost as long as the whole IK is high.
Edit, just in case I get accused of cherry picking..
Spoiler:
JamesY wrote:Az what is the product name of that dragon? My finger has been off the pp pulse for a while now. It's rather nice.
SickSix wrote: And the stark reality is the GW is (has been) pricing themselves out of business. The financial reports don't lie. Number of sales has been steadily dropping. A year or so the only reason they made any profit was from their royalties off of THQ games.
The financial reports don't lie, but they don't tell you everything. Is GW losing sales volume because they're pricing themselves out of the market, or are they losing sales volume because the rules are unplayable garbage and people do, despite GW's idiotic claims otherwise, want to have a game with functioning rules? I think there's a strong argument that the second factor is the more important one. GW's prices aren't that expensive relative to other things middle-class adults often buy, so would we really hear so much complaining about prices if GW increased prices by 10% but fixed all of the rules problems and made 8th edition the best miniatures game ever?
JohnHwangDD wrote:OK, without you telling me the base diameter, there's no way for me to guess how big it is.
Using the base as the measuring basis, the body is about 6" tall, so it's roughly comparable to a modern GW End Times kit. Smaller than a Stompa, for sure.
So the regular human sized model in that picture makes it impossible to judge the size?
Given that "regular human" varies from manufacturer to manufacture, no, it's not really possible.
Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I have never ever seen a Warmahordes miniature that I would prefer over my Space Wolves. Sure, there are some I like, but the range as a whole is not appealing to me. The same goes for all other games I have seen, be it Flames of War, Bolt Action, Infinity, Dropzone Commander, that Wild West thing or whatever.
I just love my pelt-bedecked Marines with man-sized chainswords and axe-heads the size of a torso
So to me, GW is the Hobby as I don't really see an appealing alternative. I don't have time to play often, so building and painting are my main joys at the moment.
In my younger days, when I had more spare time, I was also playing a lot of other miniature games. Most of them don't exist anymore. And even if they would, they would lose to 40k as I prefer the models and the fluff.
JohnHwangDD wrote:OK, without you telling me the base diameter, there's no way for me to guess how big it is.
Using the base as the measuring basis, the body is about 6" tall, so it's roughly comparable to a modern GW End Times kit. Smaller than a Stompa, for sure.
So the regular human sized model in that picture makes it impossible to judge the size?
Given that "regular human" varies from manufacturer to manufacture, no, it's not really possible.
Yeah, by the odd mm here or there.
If you're that ignorant of PP's product range, why all the sweeping statements earlier?
You know the scale of the game, you can see there's a human sized figure, if you really need leading by the nose through that simple an extrapolation then you're wasting my time and need to go and find something else to do.
@Ragnar: i agree nothing gets me as fired up to paint as a Space Wolves miniature!!!
they are definitely my favorite characters...
while i am happy to buy, and sometimes even paint, minis for current games like Warmachine/Hordes, Infinity, Dark-Age, Wargods, and defunct games like Celtos, Ilyad, and Confrontation, as well as collector's minis from companies like Studio McVey, Scale 75, Nuts Planet, Enigma, and Knight Models, nothing makes me want to paint more than a Space Marine...
even better if they are wearing pelts, and wielding axes
some people may not like the pricing or design of the new clampack plastic characters, but Krom, Ulric, and the Iron Priest feel like money well spent to me...
I have 1E Cryx and Khador, and those metals were larger than the GW metals. The largest models at the time were the Khador Jacks sized roughly the same as a SM Dreadnought.
The current stuff is no longer metal, and plastic tends to embiggen stuff, because they can.
Which is why I asked for a direct side-by-side comparison with a GW Imperial Knight or Stompa. Because I know how big those models are.
But thanks for reinforcing how WM/H players are...
It is still ludicrous that somehow you're happy to judge the size of the model by eyeballing the base size, but can't use the in-picture human sized model for reference because it might be off by a mm or so either way.
Either way, let's revisit your earlier statement..
GW also has huge models on a scale that WM/H cannot approach.
Whatever snark you want to throw around, and however you want to 'tweak' the criteria, this is objectively untrue. Far from "cannot approach" WMH has models that can quite happily walk up to a big GW kit, look it in the eye, then kick it in the balls.
I cannot get myself into warmahorde cause the models are not up to par with 40k, fantasy, flames of war. Its not just the finishing product, but the easily of assembling/converting, GW win by far.
No doubt there are some ugly models from GW(minotaurs, tainted chaos mauraders, old catachans etc.). But there are so much more excellent models(new dark eldar range, genestealer cult range, imperial knight, valkyrie, end of time fantasy range etc.).
I have painted quite a few of my friend's warmachine models as commission, none of them have pushed me into the game.
Big Mac wrote: I cannot get myself into warmahorde cause the models are not up to par with 40k, fantasy, flames of war. Its not just the finishing product, but the easily of assembling/converting, GW win by far.
No doubt there are some ugly models from GW(minotaurs, tainted chaos mauraders, old catachans etc.). But there are so much more excellent models(new dark eldar range, genestealer cult range, imperial knight, valkyrie, end of time fantasy range etc.).
I have painted quite a few of my friend's warmachine models as commission, none of them have pushed me into the game.
A friend of mine has a theory which I think may certainly apply for some people.
Some games have miniatures that excite you to play a game, other games have rules that get you excited about the models.
Certainly it's been like that for me with WMH. In no way do I hold the models up against the likes of Mierce, or even GW on a good day, but as my interest to play the game has increased, my appreciation of the WMH aesthetic has too.
JohnHwangDD wrote: To be fair, WM/H models are more expensive than GW models, and more cartoony.
There is nothing more cartoon villain then skulls on skulls on skulls.
I actually think WM/H is about the same in terms of quality, especially with their recent releases. Check out their larger models, they've come a long way while GW has remained stale for a few editions. Centurions in particular are hideous, and the detail is really lacking.
WM/H per model is roughly the same cost wise, but offers a ton of deals. There is nothing close to the all in one from GW. You can take that, spend another 100-120 on solos and units, and you have a competitive army with all the rules.
Comparably, just the rules for 40k cost more than the all in one and all the rules for WM/H. It's not even close, for a 2k army you'll run 400-500 easy. I can buy 2 separate armies for that in WM/H.
You'll have a hard time selling the cost is the same. GW uses too many generic copies of models to bulk up the size of the game that cost money but don't do much (Lasgun IG, Bolter Tacticals, etc).
Well, better is a bit more subjective no? I do like most of the 40k fluff more, personally, and its easier to get into due to the video games.
But WM/H is far more detailed and immersive if that's your thing. Check out their RPG line, its not really something you can argue against.
Okay, so we are comparing two different games that can't be played together against WM/H? Oh...okay...?
Regardless, I guess it depends on what you mean by variety. In terms of codex entries, its pretty close actually if we just look at 40k. There are a lot of entries in WM/H that make it closer than you think.
In terms of model variety, GW wins pretty handily.
In terms of variety in what you'll see played, WM/H wins. By quite a bit. Most codexes have at least a third that's unplayable, and that's the strong codexes. Many have half or more than that.
And internal balance. Every faction has dud choices, but it's nowhere near as bad as it is in 40k, where heavy bolters have been awful since 3rd edition, and Eldar OP in nearly every codex release since the same time.
Both suck at internal faction balance, and this is nothing new. If you care about competition, then yeah, you will get more value out of WM/H. If you care about anything else, then GW is "better".
Actually, Internal balance is very good in WM/H. It has a few duds but only a few. Even Storm Lances, one of the worst units in the game forever, saw play with H3. If you have a unit, its rare that it can't be run with a certain caster in faction. That's not always true, but its often the case. Especially in Mk3.
Not so for 40k. In 40k, units are bad for decades (RIP Genestealers, I remember you).
This translates into casual play too. Ever try to get someone to pick up 40k by getting them the DV set? The chaos player ends up quitting, and getting into the game will just make the chaos player more annoyed. Chaos Marines are awful, competitive or casual. An eldar or necron player will just destroy you, and a basic marine player is just naturally above a Chaos player and it shows really really quickly. Just the Chapter Tactics alone makes a Chaos Marine player go, "Well, what do I get?". And the answer is...not much.
This is not the case in WM/H. No faction is out of the game like in 40k, and units get buffed or nerfed twice a year.
But the idea that WM/H is cheaper? Not when you look at what people actually buy...
Really?
Cause I listed what people "actually buy" for a 500 point force and a 70 point force, and the price difference was massive. MKIII actually lowered the cost, since many jacks can have loadouts swapped and the game got about 2-3 solos smaller, which lowers the cost quite a bit. Keep in mind a 500 point force is about 25% of a completed army, and some armies get crazy expensive (Gladius?). For WM/H, it's not nearly as bad. You do need 2 lists for tournies, but lists often share characters or core units (PGBH for example, is typical in every skorne list. Same with Choir).
When was the last time you played WM/H? You seem to have a lot of outdated information if you haven't seen their biggest models.
They also have erratas every 6 months that introduce balance changes. Let me tell you, that is amazing coming from 40k and fantasy. Those games need some changes, I remember when fantasy was basically "Magic Suicide bullet, The Game!" for an entire edition, or "Daemons or GTFO".
The new edition dropped and changed a lot for the better too.
EDIT
Az, MKIII has fixed a lot of issues for many factions. Basically, a lot of the crazy combos got tuned down, and the weaker stuff got buffed (MoW from Khador are good now, shocker I know). The game allows pre-measuring which makes it easier, and leadership tests are gone. Shooting got a bit better, but Jacks now start with 1 focus so more heavies are on the field. Character restrictions are gone, and most solos have been changed a lot. There is more terrain on the table, with guidelines on how much and where to place it included in the steamroller document (really wish GW would do this).
I would say that, for the most part, the game is a lot better. I think Skorne needs work, they got one nerf too many, but they have viable playstyles. It's just not what people signed up for (Brick is one, shooting another). Cygnar, Khador, Mercs, and Minions are now viable factions instead of skews or allied forces entirely. I'm loving MK3. I keep making small mistakes since the rule changes are subtle, but the rule releases have markers where veteran players are likely to make mistakes, which helps.
Please start another thread if you want to continue this pissing contest between Warmahordes and Warhammer, it's massively off topic and begging for a flame war.
2 things. 1) please refrain from posting entirely in colour, it is hard for many users to read when they're on certain formats, 2) don't make posts like this that are just instructions, especially in colour. You're not a mod. If you're unhappy with how a thread is going, there's a yellow triangle for you to use.
That being said, please do ensure we don't get dragged off topic by a back and forth argument about two systems, thanks. motyak
how is it off-topic???
the OP compared 40K to Magic, which is not as good a comparison as Warmachine and 40K...
they are the two biggest competitors in the world of tabletop wargames where you have to assemble and (hopefully) paint your models...
both have similar costs per mini, and require about the same amount of effort to get to the table...
seems like a pretty fair comparison...
Yeah, we compared MtG to 40k for pages, and that isn't even a minis game.
I'm sorry, but if you say something is overpriced it's only natural to look at the directly competing product. For 40k, that's most likely WM/H, maybe X-wing.
I don't think it's begging a flame war. As long as you're somewhat aware of both systems and have played both, its easy to make statements about them. Some people will insult the players who prefer one system over another, but like most insults, it just signals a realization that their argument is falling apart.
I think the problem is GW is pricing its minatures as 'collectors items' .(..Jewel like objects of wander...)
Where as gamers see them as playing pieces for a game.(Delux counters?)
So in a game where you need 20-30 minatues for a full force, the price may seem acceptable when priced as 'collectors items'.
However when you need 60 to 120 minatures for a full force the price may seem excessive for gamers.
Lanrak wrote: I think the problem is GW is pricing its minatures as 'collectors items' .(..Jewel like objects of wander...)
Where as gamers see them as playing pieces for a game.(Delux counters?)
So in a game where you need 20-30 minatues for a full force, the price may seem acceptable when priced as 'collectors items'.
However when you need 60 to 120 minatures for a full force the price may seem excessive for gamers.
Maybe it is time for a reboot of epic scale 40k?
If the feedback from the punters is: this game isn't good enough and the counters cost too much. Then I'd be thinking oh "we are trying to sell big beautiful model kits with a funky excuse to get them out of the display cabinet that we call a "game" whereas what the punters want is an actual game with nicer than average but still cheap game counters, time to kill massive 28mm model kits and reboot epic.
Akiasura wrote:
GW is basically charging luxury costs without providing luxury quality. For how much more expensive it is, and older, it should be superior to WM/H in most ways. It's not. Fluff is probably the biggest area they dominate in, as well as appearance, though the two are subjective. The rules are much worse in 40k, the games play out with less strategy/tactics, and the PUG environment is awful currently. It used to not be this way, but lately its gone downhill while prices are going higher and higher.
Oh so true.
Talizvar wrote:It all boils down to:
I have $50 to spend on "fun".
What kind of fun can I get from GW for $50?
A 10-man tactical squad or a 5-man Assault squad.
(Oddly I notice for most armies many kits target $50)
What kind of fun can I get from somewhere else?
I could buy an Imperial Class Star Destroyer for Armada.
I could buy "Ghost" for X-wing.
Or a "Dr. Who Deluxe 12' Scarf" for that matter.
We are in a time spoiled for choice and I can easily find things more "shiny" than GW product as they keep upping the price.
You are oh so right. Thing is in a lot of cases I am just getting back to 40K, I have $50 Canadian dollars so even less than your $50 :p but it still holds. I have my $50 but I can't really do anything with it games wise in 40K. For X-wing or Armada as you suggested you only need one of to use right away, for 40K I will need 2 or maybe even 3 of these kits. If that is not the case and I only want one thing, that spare $50 will not buy me anything because in most cases everything is either about $60 or almost $100. Yes I can save it for the next time I have a spare $50 so now it will be $100. Thing is, I don't want to save, when I want to spend NOW.
Now GW money is just going to X-wing or Star Trek Attack wing or what not.
hobojebus wrote: I'd welcome a good edition of epic still have mk sw and ork armies.
I thought we had that?
http://www.netepic.org/ That is a great point to make that with many GW games, players just change the scale of play.
I am pretty sure near the end of the "Inquisitor" larger skirmish game they started doing reports with 28mm miniatures.
There is nothing wrong with looking at alternative rules or scales to get the games in you like provided you find enough "like minded" people to play.
A Leman Russ squadron that costs £2, and can actually move a bit without falling off a 6' by 4' table? What's not to like?
The miniatures.
This. Epic would be ok if the miniatures were at the same level as the FW Epic stuff (but with more consistent casting quality please!), but the scale still has its limits and the non-FW Epic stuff was almost all garbage.
A Leman Russ squadron that costs £2, and can actually move a bit without falling off a 6' by 4' table? What's not to like?
The miniatures.
This. Epic would be ok if the miniatures were at the same level as the FW Epic stuff (but with more consistent casting quality please!), but the scale still has its limits and the non-FW Epic stuff was almost all garbage.
It's just wound counters as long as you can tell tell what something is that's all I need.
It's just wound counters as long as you can tell tell what something is that's all I need.
But then I'm a gamer not a collector.
Yes, this ^
We need to face facts. 28mm is a scale nice for hobby model kits where you can happily spend hours painting each individual freckle on Captain Herodude's face but it is a terrible, terrible scale for gaming. It is okay only for squad vs squad level games like Necromunda or Space Hulk but utterly absurd for anything larger. ABSURD! GW knows this and they keep telling you, it's a hobby, it's a hobby, the game is not important. The game exists only so you can put your big pretty miniatures on display for someone else to admire. 40k is about collecting, crafting, storytelling, displaying and spending quality social time with fellow hobbyists.
If you are a gamer first, 40k is a slowed hyper-expensive monstrosity. If you are a hobbyist it is really fun!
In a sane world, tournaments in 40k should not exist unless you win by having the best paint job or the fluffiest back story.
If 40k is to be an actual real game it MUST be on a scale appropriate for gaming which for companies of infantry, artillery, fliers, giant mecha and tank squadrons armies must be 6mm or 10mm tops to be even remotely feasible.
6mm means you can:
- Play apocalypse size games comfortably on a 6' by 4' table.
- You can transport / store your entire 10,000pt army in a shoe box instead of a friggin freight container.
- You can paint your entire army in a single weekend instead of the 1000 weekends.
- Your entire army won't cost more to buy than a single night in a hotel would cost instead of the cost of brand new real car.
Every single one of you complaining of the cost of gaming in 40k you should just realise that epic is the game you want not 40k. That or try Dropzone Commander.
I find that argument to be pretty shallow. The true test of any game is whether or not people play it. Whether it's a board game, a video game, or a miniwar game, whatever. If it's good, people will play it. If it's not, they won't. And 40k has nothing to prove. The last 30 years of 40k gaming demonstrate that people like the format and want that scale of play.
Qlanth wrote: I find that argument to be pretty shallow. The true test of any game is whether or not people play it. Whether it's a board game, a video game, or a miniwar game, whatever. If it's good, people will play it. If it's not, they won't. And 40k has nothing to prove. The last 30 years of 40k gaming demonstrate that people like the format and want that scale of play.
lol, I made a shallow argument? Did I say something inanely vacuous like this:
"The true test of any game is whether or not people play it." or something stupidly specious like:
"If it's good, people will play it. If it's not, they won't."?
Qlanth wrote: I find that argument to be pretty shallow. The true test of any game is whether or not people play it. Whether it's a board game, a video game, or a miniwar game, whatever. If it's good, people will play it. If it's not, they won't. And 40k has nothing to prove. The last 30 years of 40k gaming demonstrate that people like the format and want that scale of play.
lol, I made a shallow argument? Did I say something inanely vacuous like this:
"The true test of any game is whether or not people play it." or something stupidly specious like:
"If it's good, people will play it. If it's not, they won't."
DERP
You're really opening a lot of eyes in this thread. I can feel it now. I really did want to play Epic this whole time after all. I never really was interested in 40k and it's all because of 28mm scale.
Qlanth wrote: I find that argument to be pretty shallow. The true test of any game is whether or not people play it. Whether it's a board game, a video game, or a miniwar game, whatever. If it's good, people will play it. If it's not, they won't. And 40k has nothing to prove. The last 30 years of 40k gaming demonstrate that people like the format and want that scale of play.
But at the same time, 40k seems to be going through a significant decrease in market penetrance, what with 7th being seen as the lame duck edition and whatnot. The unit sales have continued to decrease for years on end, and at the same time the 40k experience has shifted as bigger and bigger games making up the norm. Unless there substantial changes to the game, I don't see this process being reversed any time soon.
I think the scale of 40k has gotten significantly screwed up- troops play such a minor role in the game that everything has moved to the big expensive kits.
Repeating "7th edition is a lame duck" is 40K equivalent of "Obama is a muslim". There is no proof of either, and simply saying it over and over doesn't make it true.
6th Edition was a lame duck. We know that since it was the shortest, speed bump, of an edition in 40K history.
Rumors of 8th edition being just around the corner have existed since before 7th edition was even released. It's a snarky joke that people who were butthurt about 6ths short life span started, and that critics of GW and 7th edition won't let drop.
As for EPIC scaled 40K, it requires that you love the game enough that you don't care what the miniatures really look like.
EPIC sized figures are too tiny to sculpt detail. Too tiny to paint detail. EPIC scale is 1 step away from playing with figure flats and cardboard chits. Some people eat that up, most don't.
EPIC has been through 2 incarnations, neither of them sold well enough for GW to want to keep making them long term.
So dropping profits and a14% reduction in model sales mean nothing to you?
How about the fact x-wing has dethroned 40k as the best selling miniature game?
40k is decreasing in popularity because the games imbalanced and the cost is prohibitive, people have had enough of GW and are leaving for greener pastures.
adamsouza wrote: Repeating "7th edition is a lame duck" is 40K equivalent of "Obama is a muslim". There is no proof of either, and simply saying it over and over doesn't make it true.
6th Edition was a lame duck. We know that since it was the shortest, speed bump, of an edition in 40K history.
Rumors of 8th edition being just around the corner have existed since before 7th edition was even released. It's a snarky joke that people who were butthurt about 6ths short life span started, and that critics of GW and 7th edition won't let drop.
As for EPIC scaled 40K, it requires that you love the game enough that you don't care what the miniatures really look like.
EPIC sized figures are too tiny to sculpt detail. Too tiny to paint detail. EPIC scale is 1 step away from playing with figure flats and cardboard chits. Some people eat that up, most don't.
EPIC has been through 2 incarnations, neither of them sold well enough for GW to want to keep making them long term.
I'm ok with 7th, if you don't take it as a serious game, it can be fun. I sort of think of 7th as 6th merged with apocalypse, which makes sense as both use the same models. The issue with 7th is that it is not a wargame, it is a game for a hobby. Playing wargames with hobby kits is nuts though, just nuts. Who has the time, the money or storage to play a wargame with 28mm kits? Where do you get a playing area big enough? You could rent a tennis court I suppose, or a football pitch.
If you are gamer more than you are hobbyist and you like to play within the 40k fluff / lore then epic is the way to go. With all these people complaining of the cost of 40k, playing with forever to be unpainted armies and then giving up and just playing something else, it may be that epic's time has come.
28mm 40k is for people who are super-rich, unemployed (so they have time enough to paint a dozen leman russes and 200 guardsmen, including their freckles) and really, really dig painting freckles.
6mm 40k is for gamers whose disposable income is not unlimited, have leisure time limited by family, jobs and normal sleeping patterns and are not that bothered about painting freckles.
6mm 40k is for gamers whose disposable income is not unlimited, have leisure time limited by family, jobs and normal sleeping patterns and are not that bothered about painting freckles.
You know, sweeping assumptions just do not hold.
I didn't like Epic. I still do not like Epic. And it entirely has to do with the scale. Stating that Epic is for 'this type of person' and '40k is for that type of person' is petty tribalism at its finest. Plenty of people out there with family, jobs and sleeping patterns that don't like Epic. Plenty of people who are super rich or unemployed with enough time who do like Epic.
But assuming that if someone likes X then they must be Y?
Yeah, not on at all mate. Bit dickish if you ask me.
I didn't like Epic. I still do not like Epic. And it entirely has to do with the scale. Stating that Epic is for 'this type of person' and '40k is for that type of person' is petty tribalism at its finest. Plenty of people out there with family, jobs and sleeping patterns that don't like Epic. Plenty of people who are super rich or unemployed with enough time who do like Epic.
But assuming that if someone likes X then they must be Y?
Yeah, not on at all mate. Bit dickish if you ask me.
It is a matter of practicalities, just this. I'm not sure why you having a malfunction over this, do you imagine that 28mm scale will die if epic gets a reboot? Hardly, the hobbyists will keep it alive. If GW wants to coax back the gamers it is losing to X-Wing, then epic would be a good fit. GW is big enough to do both epic and 28mm. You like freckles? Fine play 7th with big kits! Like a game with room to manoeuvre on a standard gaming table that won't cost a fortune? Play epic!
Qlanth wrote: I find that argument to be pretty shallow. The true test of any game is whether or not people play it. Whether it's a board game, a video game, or a miniwar game, whatever. If it's good, people will play it. If it's not, they won't. And 40k has nothing to prove. The last 30 years of 40k gaming demonstrate that people like the format and want that scale of play.
Except for the past 30 years 40k hasn't been trying to fit superheavies in to your average game, that's a more recent phenomenon.
Personally I think with the size of games 40k tries to play (with tank squadrons, large monsters, walkers, etc), 15mm scale would be perfect. 6mm the models just become counters, which some people like but I don't think has wide appeal. 15mm the models are still clear enough to put some effort in to making individuals look nice, but also if you want to paint stuff quickly a basecoat and a wash goes a long way on 15mm models.
Of course for painting display models, 28mm (and larger) is great, but part of the problem with 40k is not knowing what it wants to be and that's driven a lot of people away in recent years.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Except for the past 30 years 40k hasn't been trying to fit superheavies in to your average game, that's a more recent phenomenon.
Personally I think with the size of games 40k tries to play (with tank squadrons, large monsters, walkers, etc), 15mm scale would be perfect. 6mm the models just become counters, which some people like but I don't think has wide appeal. 15mm the models are still clear enough to put some effort in to making individuals look nice, but also if you want to paint stuff quickly a basecoat and a wash goes a long way on 15mm models.
Of course for painting display models, 28mm (and larger) is great, but part of the problem with 40k is not knowing what it wants to be and that's driven a lot of people away in recent years.
I agree, even a drop to 15mm would make big games much more practical and affordable.
A 15mm mini is half the height, quarter the footprint and an eighth the volume. Which loosely implies minis being an 1/8th cost. Leman Russ for a £5? yes please!
Dropzone Commander is on a 10mm scale and even the infantry looks nice enough.
Dropping scale may mean a drop in material costs, but they're a tiny part of the cost, really really tiny.
There may be a small drop in production costs due to less time to actually sculpt a smaller model with less detail and less complex sprue design, but the reality is the drop won't be anything near enough to realise prices like you're suggesting.
Given the costs of packaging, logistics and the overhead of the retail chain would be almost completely unaffected, I'd be surprised if GW would/could sell a 15mm Russ for less than £25.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, probably closer £15-20, I'd got the Russ at £40 currently in my head, and they're £31.
Dropping scale may mean a drop in material costs, but they're a tiny part of the cost, really really tiny.
There may be a small drop in production costs due to less time to actually sculpt a smaller model with less detail and less complex sprue design, but the reality is the drop won't be anything near enough to realise prices like you're suggesting.
Given the costs of packaging, logistics and the overhead of the retail chain would be almost completely unaffected, I'd be surprised if GW would/could sell a 15mm Russ for less than £25.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, probably closer £15-20, I'd got the Russ at £40 currently in my head, and they're £31.
No your logic is wrong. Design costs (which you incorrectly call production costs) would be the same as for a 28mm russ, but those costs are tiny, tiny, tiny on large production runs. Large production runs are hardly a thing in wargaming but if there was any company that gets close to that it would be GW. All other costs are fairly proportional because a 28mm leman russ package would hold 8 15mm russes not 1 (Derp).
For a point of reference Dropzone Commander sells 10mm main battle tanks (in resin) in packs of 3 for £11.
If fow can do plastic tanks at £5 GW could certainly do a smaller kit for cheaper.
The idea it'd be £15 is bewildering.
GW don't set high prices because it costs them alot, they set them because their sales are abysmal and they have to keep profits up any means necessary.
Warning, very big rant ahead: 
R - I think it's not simply the cost of entry into the hobby, but the cost of upkeep as well, with new releases and rules changing what's viable.
I think mine was. 
. And of course a kit of three russes offers no NO single euro off...
