Jokes aside, I can't decide what I'd like more. A supplement for Traitor Legions or a Fallen Angels supplement.
To say nothing of the potential of models to go along with this. Cypher and his merry band of closet loyalists.
Please GW make it so lol.
Luther lived. He's the prophet in the heart of the Rock. Near the sleeping Lion. I thought they'd killed Astelan but maybe not. Maybe they decided to keep him alive because he wanted death.
Luther was imprisoned in the Rock, if he is getting rules then he probably got out when the lion awoke, the question is is he on the lions side or the other side, and who's side is the lion on. I would say Astelan is the madman but thats just a guess. This should be good if its true.
Fezza213 wrote: Luther was imprisoned in the Rock, if he is getting rules then he probably got out when the lion awoke, the question is is he on the lions side or the other side, and who's side is the lion on. I would say Astelan is the madman but thats just a guess. This should be good if its true.
Hazard a guess that if the Lion is awake, and there is a Primarch fight going down in Warzone Fenris.. then he's up and fighting as a Loyalist. If him and Magnus combined forces that'd really suck.
The Dark Angels invade Fenris because of the changeling only to find out that the changeling was working for Magnus all along and trying to hunt down and kill the Lion before he awakes.
Magnus is invading Fenris now to push the Dark Angels back because he was always loyal only for the Lion to awake and make his legion whole by bringing the fallen back into the fold and attacking Earth so he can be the one true Emperor of Mankind.
LightKing wrote: how is it that Luthor has been able to live 10,000 years when even Dante is only 1100 years old and he is the oldest astarte currently?
Luther is not an Astartes, he was too old, they gave some treatments but he is not a full Astartes he is probably similar to Kor Phaeron
LightKing wrote: how is it that Luthor has been able to live 10,000 years when even Dante is only 1100 years old and he is the oldest astarte currently?
Current fluff is that first generation SM (i.e. perfect geneseed) are immortal. The seed has devolved quite a bit since original implantation. In fact Dante/Logan probably accidentally got a less mutated geneseed.
Also what Jehan said. My guess is "Something" is keeping him alive. Or he could be an eternal without knowing it.
LightKing wrote: how is it that Luthor has been able to live 10,000 years when even Dante is only 1100 years old and he is the oldest astarte currently?
A lot of his "longevity" is due to the fact when the Supreme Grand Master is not talking to Luther, they keep him in Stasis Lock.
Kharn, Ahriman, and Cypher are all first gen from what I understand but any CSM character still alive can also put a fair bit of stock in one of the following reasons;
-supposed immortality due to the geneseed
-patron god keeping them alive
-time moves differently in the warp
Current fluff is that first generation SM (i.e. perfect geneseed) are immortal. The seed has devolved quite a bit since original implantation. In fact Dante/Logan probably accidentally got a less mutated geneseed.
Really? Well, that's stupid.
What's the source for this nonsense?
I always thought that Dante being the oldest Astartes alive was because GRIMDARK: Astartes never live long enough to die a natural death. (If they even can die a natural death: perhapsthey have inherited enough of what ever makes the Emperor special via the primarchs to be immortal.)
Current fluff is that first generation SM (i.e. perfect geneseed) are immortal. The seed has devolved quite a bit since original implantation. In fact Dante/Logan probably accidentally got a less mutated geneseed.
Really? Well, that's stupid.
What's the source for this nonsense?
Carlovonsexron wrote: I always thought that Dante being the oldest Astartes alive was because GRIMDARK: Astartes never live long enough to die a natural death. (If they even can die a natural death: perhapsthey have inherited enough of what ever makes the Emperor special via the primarchs to be immortal.)
This is my preferred take. But then, I also want the Eldar to be immortal.
LightKing wrote:how is it that Luthor has been able to live 10,000 years when even Dante is only 1100 years old and he is the oldest astarte currently?
As was said, Luthor is not an Astarte, he was too old. Thing is, the only reason he was able to go toe to toe with El'Johnson was because he took on the ruinous powers of Chaos. So that giving him powers could have given him long life. I never thought of what was said earlier about keeping him in statis as well. So long life from Chaos powers and being in statis could let him live for over 10 000 years.
LightKing wrote:how is it that Luthor has been able to live 10,000 years when even Dante is only 1100 years old and he is the oldest astarte currently?
As was said, Luthor is not an Astarte, he was too old. Thing is, the only reason he was able to go toe to toe with El'Johnson was because he took on the ruinous powers of Chaos. So that giving him powers could have given him long life. I never thought of what was said earlier about keeping him in statis as well. So long life from Chaos powers and being in statis could let him live for over 10 000 years.
well i was just recently told that The Lion actually could of won the fight, but hesitated killing Luthor, allowing Luthor to chaos blast the Lion
Yes the lion could have killed him, even though Luther was supercharged by chaos. He hesitated as he truly cared for his friend Luther. The lion did have his moments where he sent a bunch of the legion home if the upset him, but he didn't wish death on them.
However, it sounds like the lion can kill Luther once and for all now! It will be interesting to see if the fallen join the angels. Cypher isn't all bad when you read about him. He still cares for the legion, and the lion's sword
455_PWR wrote: Yes the lion could have killed him, even though Luther was supercharged by chaos. He hesitated as he truly cared for his friend Luther. The lion did have his moments where he sent a bunch of the legion home if the upset him, but he didn't wish death on them.
However, it sounds like the lion can kill Luther once and for all now! It will be interesting to see if the fallen join the angels. Cypher isn't all bad when you read about him. He still cares for the legion, and the lion's sword
Dark Angels already have formations and their codex was not too long ago... interesting to see what their successor chapters will be like though (or if it's just a nice way to say "paint however you feel").
Requizen wrote: Dark Angels already have formations and their codex was not too long ago... interesting to see what their successor chapters will be like though (or if it's just a nice way to say "paint however you feel").
Well, their formations are not all that great at representing all three wings.
I mean, you can't even RUN a pure deathwing.
And the greenwing is underwhelming.
And once you factor in the new dudes that need to be inserted, there is an update needed at least.
And then there are the fallen.
And obviously it won't be JUST the dark angels there, someone else has got to stick their noses in, its the IoM after all.
before this last month or two i'd say this all sounded like wishful thinking bs. i mean, it still does, but, that doesn't mean it's not going to happen with this new world order GW.
Well, that's unfortunate. I was, perhaps naively, still holding out hope GW would have the good sense to stop their nonsense before they started reviving Loyalist Primarchs, but it seems they really have managed to forget why 40K was unique and interesting and are determined to turn it into a Big Supermen Punchy Face setting.
Yodhrin wrote: Well, that's unfortunate. I was, perhaps naively, still holding out hope GW would have the good sense to stop their nonsense before they started reviving Loyalist Primarchs, but it seems they really have managed to forget why 40K was unique and interesting and are determined to turn it into a Big Supermen Punchy Face setting.
one primarch coming back doesn't make it "Big Supermen Punchy Face"
i mean GW kept them alive for a reason, that someday they might return.....Russ said he would come back at "Wolf Time"
I highly doubt they will bring all of the possible loyalists back...im thinking 1-2 at the most to be honest
Silent Puffin? wrote: So if Lion El Johnson (perhaps the most poorly named character in all of Sci Fi) is awake does that mean that 40K's End Times have arrived?
Age of the Emperor is just around the corner....
I highly dobut GW will do a reboot like they did for Fantasy
Yodhrin wrote: Well, that's unfortunate. I was, perhaps naively, still holding out hope GW would have the good sense to stop their nonsense before they started reviving Loyalist Primarchs, but it seems they really have managed to forget why 40K was unique and interesting and are determined to turn it into a Big Supermen Punchy Face setting.
one primarch coming back doesn't make it "Big Supermen Punchy Face"
i mean GW kept them alive for a reason, that someday they might return.....Russ said he would come back at "Wolf Time"
I highly doubt they will bring all of the possible loyalists back...im thinking 1-2 at the most to be honest
If you really believe they're going to stop at one or two now they've committed, you're even more naive than I was in hoping they wouldn't go there in the first place. If they bring back a Loyalist, that's that, GW have painted themselves into a corner, because either they honour the existing fluff you point out and actually make this the for-reals 40K End Times and start bringing back all the players who've been foreshadowed as being there, plus blowing up important planets, wiping out significant characters and factions etc as they did during WHF End Times(note; I'm not suggesting they're going to follow exactly the same pattern, they will doubtless take a boiling frog approach and stretch it out over several years rather than "Bing, bang, boom - everyone's dead", but that's the direction the narrative has to take if they do End Times of any sort, fast or slow), or they break all the narrative promises that have been made over the years and bring back Primarchs without actually doing any of the things Primarchs coming back are supposed to be the catalyst for.
Either way, the setting is going to narrow its focus and begin to resemble 30K in some regards(the least entertaining ones IMO, but the whole point of 30K was supposed to be to give those kinds of stories a place where they fit in thematically, since GW used to understand that they don't in 40K), with the teeming masses and their struggles being insignificant background to the clash of titans/fate of the galaxy/Big Supermen Punchy Face(delete as applicable based on which option GW choose) nonsense. Any SM subfaction that gets a Primarch back will be defined by that Primarch's story from then on, and the Imperium as a whole will be defined by their collective story as will Chaos by the Daemon Primarchs. Your brave Guardsmen or dashing Inquisitor can defeat all the impossible odds and stand every last stand they can find, none of it will matter because in the end it will come down to a "dramatic" Big Supermen Punchy Face battle.
I do not play the game, so as a painter I look forward to any kind of these high level character models (if they are not the size of a demon primarch) ...
Unlike 30k, is not just IoM vs chaos. There are other players involved, some as small as the tau, others as massive as the necron and nids.
The primes alone, do not make the story any more, as they got competitors all over the place, and not everyone is playing the same game.
Sad Panda said that the Tau plot and the end times of 40k plot is in motion now. It's been speculated to death where it will go. I imagine we'll see at least 2 more campaigns next year possibly 3 of two books each and large model releases to accompany them. Also the big 8th edition at one point as well.
Also my friend is not taking this well since he is a huge Dark Angels fan. I am laughing my ass off naturally.
I freakin' love it! I understand this change isn't for everyone, but the idea of the Primarchs returning just makes me feel so warm and fuzzy inside!
The heroes, the myths, the legends I have always read, the tiny bits of lore giving the idea they'd one day return / wake / heal, the prophecies, GODS, it's all coming together, maybe, just maybe, the End Times will actually end this time.
It's gonna be sweet, sweet carnage and I can't wait for the books using this new lore <3 . Tau, Eldar, Tyranids, Orks, all the shitstorms that already exist and a glorious battle royale of Primarchs.
Yodhrin wrote: Well, that's unfortunate. I was, perhaps naively, still holding out hope GW would have the good sense to stop their nonsense before they started reviving Loyalist Primarchs, but it seems they really have managed to forget why 40K was unique and interesting and are determined to turn it into a Big Supermen Punchy Face setting.
one primarch coming back doesn't make it "Big Supermen Punchy Face"
i mean GW kept them alive for a reason, that someday they might return.....Russ said he would come back at "Wolf Time"
I highly doubt they will bring all of the possible loyalists back...im thinking 1-2 at the most to be honest
Initial primarch wave is 4 primarch back and that's no quarantee they stop.
And originally 40k was supposed to be setting for players to make their own stories, not story being force feed and screw the player stories...
Yodhrin wrote: Well, that's unfortunate. I was, perhaps naively, still holding out hope GW would have the good sense to stop their nonsense before they started reviving Loyalist Primarchs, but it seems they really have managed to forget why 40K was unique and interesting and are determined to turn it into a Big Supermen Punchy Face setting.
one primarch coming back doesn't make it "Big Supermen Punchy Face"
i mean GW kept them alive for a reason, that someday they might return.....Russ said he would come back at "Wolf Time"
I highly doubt they will bring all of the possible loyalists back...im thinking 1-2 at the most to be honest
Initial primarch wave is 4 primarch back and that's no quarantee they stop.
And originally 40k was supposed to be setting for players to make their own stories, not story being force feed and screw the player stories...
No one is forcing you to stop your current stories. Take the example of RPGs: Nothing stops you from using a previous version of a setting or your own setting just because the publishers made a new book that has a crazy event you don't like.
I wonder how they're going to play Luther, at the end of their fight he shakes off the influence of chaos and doesn't kill that Lion and surrenders mumbling about the watchers forgiving him, but now apparently bonkers. I mean, if he's got nothing going upstairs, how will he perform on the table?
Also wondering how the Chapter is gonna react to the Lion just waltzing out of the rock like "I was here all along!"
The current setting is pretty tapped out in terms of what can be told. I want it to advance then pause for awhile to see the new sights. Maybe someday we'll get the full end times.
Ir0njack wrote: I wonder how they're going to play Luther, at the end of their fight he shakes off the influence of chaos and doesn't kill that Lion and surrenders mumbling about the watchers forgiving him, but now apparently bonkers. I mean, if he's got nothing going upstairs, how will he perform on the table?
Also wondering how the Chapter is gonna react to the Lion just waltzing out of the rock like "I was here all along!"
Fairly certain the Dark Angels will know it's him.
Ir0njack wrote: I wonder how they're going to play Luther, at the end of their fight he shakes off the influence of chaos and doesn't kill that Lion and surrenders mumbling about the watchers forgiving him, but now apparently bonkers. I mean, if he's got nothing going upstairs, how will he perform on the table?
Also wondering how the Chapter is gonna react to the Lion just waltzing out of the rock like "I was here all along!"
Perhaps he truly is sick in the head and will side with the Fallen.
"They'll never stop 40k!
Have no fears we've got stories for years, like
Ferrus Manus becomes a robot,
Maybe the Emperor gets a cell phone,
Has Russ ever owned a bear?"
Gamgee wrote: The current setting is pretty tapped out in terms of what can be told. I want it to advance then pause for awhile to see the new sights. Maybe someday we'll get the full end times.
The current setting isn't tapped out as there are vast regions of space with untold stories and multitude of armies out there that have barely been touched upon. Plus there is the freedom to make up any number of new chapters/regiments/waaaghs/etc or even make up new named characters for existing forces. You can even go back to an earlier time if needed with the only factions that would work for being the Tau and Tyranids to a lesser extend due their arrival being more time restrictive. Personally I think the end times stuff is directly related to the success of 30k so GW wants to push the clock up to let the Primarchs return.
Yodhrin wrote: Well, that's unfortunate. I was, perhaps naively, still holding out hope GW would have the good sense to stop their nonsense before they started reviving Loyalist Primarchs, but it seems they really have managed to forget why 40K was unique and interesting and are determined to turn it into a Big Supermen Punchy Face setting.
one primarch coming back doesn't make it "Big Supermen Punchy Face"
i mean GW kept them alive for a reason, that someday they might return.....Russ said he would come back at "Wolf Time"
I highly doubt they will bring all of the possible loyalists back...im thinking 1-2 at the most to be honest
Initial primarch wave is 4 primarch back and that's no quarantee they stop.
And originally 40k was supposed to be setting for players to make their own stories, not story being force feed and screw the player stories...
No one is forcing you to stop your current stories. Take the example of RPGs: Nothing stops you from using a previous version of a setting or your own setting just because the publishers made a new book that has a crazy event you don't like.
That's a crock and always has been, for at least two reasons.
First, because there's a difference between something being hypothetically possible and the practical reality, and the practical reality is that the "official" story, the "official" setting, the "official" rules are the baseline experience and the one most people will have. Plenty of folk don't have a small, regular group of like-minded players they can retreat into their own little world with, they have to go to clubs and stores and play in the same sandbox as everybody else, and that's invariably a sandbox bounded by the official product as it is exists at that moment, because wargaming isn't an RPG, you can't just pull out some pen & paper with the rulebook and play, you have to spend huge chunks of cash and time to create an army and most people are going to do that with maximum value in mind, ie making sure they can use it as often and easily as possible, ie they'll build it within the confines of the official setting that everyone uses as a common frame of reference.
Second, because not wanting the story to advance and in so doing change the setting doesn't mean people don't want any new content at all, which is what freezing your own little headcanon version of the universe in amber and ignoring what GW put out means. I can putter about in the Warhammer World as it was prior to the End Times as much as I like, in theory, but even if the first issue wasn't a problem, I'd still be playing a setting that probably won't ever see investment and development by GW again. They're never going to flesh out Araby or tell us the history of Grand Cathay or provide us with Indan miniatures, and creating whole new chunks of background as fanfiction just serves to even further isolate your own little version of the setting from other gamers you might meet.
More than that though, it's a complete waste. 40K has 10,000 years of history, the "story" of the setting has already been told(or rather, is assumed to have been) - the present day of 40K is the penultimate chapter of the final book in the series, it's the moments before the Rebel fleet arrives to battle the second Death Star, and the conclusion has already been throughly foreshadowed, so either they pay off that foreshadowing and give us a final and expected conclusion(ie, the Rebels win, Luke defeats the Dark Side, Han gets the girl - or in 40K's case, the Primarchs come back, everything goes to gak, and the galaxy dies burning in a four-way cage match between Chaos, Necrons, 'Nids, and whatever else is left to band together in a futile effort to defeat those three catastrophic forces) and the whole thing is over and done with, or they don't and everyone ends up feeling cheated by the inevitable deus ex machina. And before anyone tries it, don't give me the "oh well they can just advance the story a leeetle bit" line, because that's also a crock. Why? Well, either they swap things around a little but don't change anything functionally, in which case those demanding story advancement will remain unsatisfied and continue demanding, or they'll move it on significantly but stop again at two minutes to midnight instead of five, which merely creates a new status quo every bit as "stagnant" as the status quo ante and in a couple of years people will begin demanding they advance it again. So they edge forward and stop at one minute, then thirty seconds, then ten seconds etc etc - in the end, they still either have to end it or renege on their narrative promises.
40K cannot be an advancing story and remain 40K in any meaningful sense, because the setting was designed originally to sit right before the end of the story.
It's somewhat of an overreaction. Everything is basically the same except instead of being asleep in the rock, Lionel is up and having his own story around the fallen.
Vorian wrote: It's somewhat of an overreaction. Everything is basically the same except instead of being asleep in the rock, Lionel is up and having his own story around the fallen.
It's really not. You can continue to obfuscate the background implications of a loyalist Primarch returning or see that this will completely feth up 40k's overarching theme.
Except it won't. People have always wanted to play with a primarch in 40k, this will let them do it. Increasing the scope and length of a story does not mean that parts of it are invalidated.
We had a literal Demi-God born just the other day! Everything is just being turned up to 11 for the 13th crusade.
If you want to continue having your ork/governors militia off shoot story on planet Blibbidy V then I don't see why having all the big boys in play in that campaign is going to stop you
BoomWolf wrote: Yodhrin, you made one mistake in your analysis.
Unlike 30k, is not just IoM vs chaos. There are other players involved, some as small as the tau, others as massive as the necron and nids.
The primes alone, do not make the story any more, as they got competitors all over the place, and not everyone is playing the same game.
Really?? Any Primarch will facesmash the Tau, they have NOTHING to stand against them. They had a very tenuous existence considering any large scale conflict could just wipe them out. Even Farsight would fold very fast.
The Necrons, unless the Silent king returns and unites them again, I don't see them standing up to the IoM for long if Super Duper Primarchs return.
Orcs probably will be about, and the Eldar? A crusade against any Wraithworld and it is Toast. Dark Eldar, might survive, might unless Khan stomps them from within.
The Primarchs in 40k is what they did with fantasy with End times regardless of the shiny models we may get.
While it won't be as big as AoS wiping fantasy clean, it's going to be bad. Very bad.
BoomWolf wrote: Yodhrin, you made one mistake in your analysis.
Unlike 30k, is not just IoM vs chaos. There are other players involved, some as small as the tau, others as massive as the necron and nids.
The primes alone, do not make the story any more, as they got competitors all over the place, and not everyone is playing the same game.
Really?? Any Primarch will facesmash the Tau, they have NOTHING to stand against them. They had a very tenuous existence considering any large scale conflict could just wipe them out. Even Farsight would fold very fast.
The Necrons, unless the Silent king returns and unites them again, I don't see them standing up to the IoM for long if Super Duper Primarchs return.
Orcs probably will be about, and the Eldar? A crusade against any Wraithworld and it is Toast. Dark Eldar, might survive, might unless Khan stomps them from within.
The Primarchs in 40k is what they did with fantasy with End times regardless of the shiny models we may get.
While it won't be as big as AoS wiping fantasy clean, it's going to be bad. Very bad.
And it's begun.
S.Y.
If this means even more awesome models like Nagash and friends, or the Orruk and the Sylvaneth that were created in the AoS timeline, the true end times can't come soon enough
If you want to continue having your ork/governors militia off shoot story on planet Blibbidy V then I don't see why having all the big boys in play in that campaign is going to stop you
You mean like how warhammer players are still fighting Beastmen in the great forest?
If you want to continue having your ork/governors militia off shoot story on planet Blibbidy V then I don't see why having all the big boys in play in that campaign is going to stop you
You mean like how warhammer players are still fighting Beastmen in the great forest?
Actually a "skrimish" like game without trays and stringent formation might let you do this more realistically than with WHF...
Introducing Primarchs isn't going to blow up the galaxy.
AoS has given you much more room to invent whichever forest you want, with whichever factions there you want. By design.
Tau couldn't stand up to a Primarch? It's fiction. Much as I'm sure they would invent some way for Tau to remain a viable force, I find it much more likely the Primarchs will be busy with the 13th crusade for the next half decade or so
Yes please, give me all the Primarchs! Been waiting for this for years, and it's wonderful (and now fairly obvious) that Magnus and the Lion would be released for 40k instead of 30k first, as neither of them currently have a FW model. Definitely loving this new direction from GW.
The current setting isn't tapped out as there are vast regions of space with untold stories and multitude of armies out there that have barely been touched upon. Plus there is the freedom to make up any number of new chapters/regiments/waaaghs/etc or even make up new named characters for existing forces. You can even go back to an earlier time if needed with the only factions that would work for being the Tau and Tyranids to a lesser extend due their arrival being more time restrictive.
You can add side stories to LotR too but the fact remains that the main story has been told and everything else is just window dressing. The zany adventures of that one Elf that appeared briefly in chapter 213 might be fun pulp, but they have no emotional impact because we know they are meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
There is no added value in making up countless new warzones in 40k that have zero importance because we know the main story is frozen 5 seconds to midnight of humanity's extinction.
The plot needs to advance and GW have painted themselves into a corner. The End Times are the only solution. Not a good solution, but the only one.
Countless warzones that you've made up yourself are the entire point of 40k. There are tens of thousands of ongoing wars, raids, skirmishes etc., none of which have any lasting impact on the slow march towards either the end of humanity or its ascendance to a major psychic species. That's the entire POINT. Your "Governors militia vs some Orks" skirmishes have just as much impact on the actual functioning of the Imperium as that one time Chaos killed an entire hive world because it's Tuesday, i.e. none whatsoever.
It's right there at the start of the books. "To be a man in such times is to be one amongst countless billions...... and whatever happens, you will not be missed". It's the big joke! You have all these powerful characters and even they can't achieve anything.
Non-deaemon primarchs returning changes all this. For a start they're going to tear up the established order of the Imperium, since I'm pretty sure they won't be keen on how the high lords have been running things. And it'll make it NONSENSE, another bloody "soap opera miniatures game" like Warmachine, Battletech (or even, whisper it, X-wing) where there's a galaxy of trillions and only about 17 people who know each other have any effect on anything.
Also for the record people in the 40k community call it the end times, but it's not the end times. Very reliable rumor mongers have said the setting will not detonate and be restarted like 99.9999% accuracy rating rumor folks.
It's a large lore advancement but it won't see the universe blown up like age of sigmar. It's just easier saying end times than advancing times.
BoomWolf wrote: Yodhrin, you made one mistake in your analysis.
Unlike 30k, is not just IoM vs chaos. There are other players involved, some as small as the tau, others as massive as the necron and nids.
The primes alone, do not make the story any more, as they got competitors all over the place, and not everyone is playing the same game.
Really?? Any Primarch will facesmash the Tau, they have NOTHING to stand against them. They had a very tenuous existence considering any large scale conflict could just wipe them out. Even Farsight would fold very fast.
The Necrons, unless the Silent king returns and unites them again, I don't see them standing up to the IoM for long if Super Duper Primarchs return.
Orcs probably will be about, and the Eldar? A crusade against any Wraithworld and it is Toast. Dark Eldar, might survive, might unless Khan stomps them from within.
The Primarchs in 40k is what they did with fantasy with End times regardless of the shiny models we may get.
While it won't be as big as AoS wiping fantasy clean, it's going to be bad. Very bad.
And it's begun.
S.Y.
What do you think the Xenos races are going to do during the end times? Regress? Lose models? Cease existing? Not participate? They are very much apart of these ends times. Much like in age of sigmar where all the factions had something cool and interesting going on all the factions here have something interesting (and all got cool models). I don't expect any faction to be farting rainbows either it's going to be dark and tough times all around for the 40k protagonist factions. They'll likely all get stuff to match a primarch even if it's not directly a primarch.
BoomWolf wrote: Yodhrin, you made one mistake in your analysis.
Unlike 30k, is not just IoM vs chaos. There are other players involved, some as small as the tau, others as massive as the necron and nids.
The primes alone, do not make the story any more, as they got competitors all over the place, and not everyone is playing the same game.
Really?? Any Primarch will facesmash the Tau, they have NOTHING to stand against them. They had a very tenuous existence considering any large scale conflict could just wipe them out. Even Farsight would fold very fast.
The Necrons, unless the Silent king returns and unites them again, I don't see them standing up to the IoM for long if Super Duper Primarchs return.
Orcs probably will be about, and the Eldar? A crusade against any Wraithworld and it is Toast. Dark Eldar, might survive, might unless Khan stomps them from within.
The Primarchs in 40k is what they did with fantasy with End times regardless of the shiny models we may get.
While it won't be as big as AoS wiping fantasy clean, it's going to be bad. Very bad.
And it's begun.
S.Y.
Will be looking very forward to your exiting of the game then, since it causes you so much anguish
The joy of fantasy and sci fi is that everything and anything can happen.
"Primarchs will smash *"
If you think that on the gaming table it would be that easy, you are sadly mistaken and as far as lore goes there is a never ending range of ways to tie things down or balance them.
The world evolves as do the races and the characters.
I get it, you have bought in and have been drinking the Flavor Aid that rumor mongers have been feeding even though none of the credible ones have said anything to support what you are saying and you are scared.
No reason to be up in everyone else's grill about it.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Except it won't. People have always wanted to play with a primarch in 40k, this will let them do it. Increasing the scope and length of a story does not mean that parts of it are invalidated.
GW already made an entire game to cater to people who want to use Primarchs. Why do we need them in 40K too? They obviously fit in 30K but they utterly ruin the theme of 40K.
People like different things. Someone getting something you don't like takes NOTHING from you. The world does not revolve around your likes and dislikes.
If you find yourself at a table with someone that brought a Primarch or Daemon Primarch, and you're not into that, simply say "No thank you" and then shake his fething hand. Don't by a grumpy gus. Just smile and move on.
Same as I would do if someone plopped an army of 5 knights in a pick up game. "No thanks. Nice paint job!"
(of course, you and I know that the guy bringing 5 knights to pick up games doesn't fething paint!) Nudge-nudge, wink-wink!
Countless warzones that you've made up yourself are the entire point of 40k. There are tens of thousands of ongoing wars, raids, skirmishes etc., none of which have any lasting impact on the slow march towards either the end of humanity or its ascendance to a major psychic species. That's the entire POINT. Your "Governors militia vs some Orks" skirmishes have just as much impact on the actual functioning of the Imperium as that one time Chaos killed an entire hive world because it's Tuesday, i.e. none whatsoever.
It's right there at the start of the books. "To be a man in such times is to be one amongst countless billions...... and whatever happens, you will not be missed". It's the big joke! You have all these powerful characters and even they can't achieve anything.
Non-deaemon primarchs returning changes all this. For a start they're going to tear up the established order of the Imperium, since I'm pretty sure they won't be keen on how the high lords have been running things. And it'll make it NONSENSE, another bloody "soap opera miniatures game" like Warmachine, Battletech (or even, whisper it, X-wing) where there's a galaxy of trillions and only about 17 people who know each other have any effect on anything.
Gah. Horrid.
10-15 years ago you would have been right. It didn't need to advance. When I came in at the start of 3rd edition, the universe was grim and dark and mankind was fighting for survival and that was great. Everything you said applied. But GW escalated. They advanced the clock to a point where everything but the main fight is meaningless. Like I said, they painted themselves into a corner. It could have stayed the way it was in 3rd and 4th forever but they messed it up and it can't stay the way it is now and there's no way out but forward. And I agree with your view on those other games' fluff. I hope it doesn't end up that way but GW has been trying to copy PP's design principles in many ways for years now. Outlook grim.
If you find yourself at a table with someone that brought a Primarch or Daemon Primarch, and you're not into that, simply say "No thank you" and then shake his fething hand. Don't by a grumpy gus. Just smile and move on.
Same as I would do if someone plopped an army of 5 knights in a pick up game. "No thanks. Nice paint job!"
(of course, you and I know that the guy bringing 5 knights to pick up games doesn't fething paint!) Nudge-nudge, wink-wink!
Note how we're all referring to the background, not the game.
If you find yourself at a table with someone that brought a Primarch or Daemon Primarch, and you're not into that, simply say "No thank you" and then shake his fething hand. Don't by a grumpy gus. Just smile and move on.
Same as I would do if someone plopped an army of 5 knights in a pick up game. "No thanks. Nice paint job!"
(of course, you and I know that the guy bringing 5 knights to pick up games doesn't fething paint!) Nudge-nudge, wink-wink!
Note how we're all referring to the background, not the game.
Crimson, StupidYellow and others were not. Please note that.
Ruin wrote: No they were not. Not sure how the theme of 40k is represented on the TT.
Read this from Crimson: "GW already made an entire game to cater to people who want to use Primarchs. Why do we need them in 40K too? They obviously fit in 30K but they utterly ruin the theme of 40K."
Crimson specifically talking about the GAME of 30k is where Primarchs should stay and that Primarchs in the GAME of 40k ruins his theme.
If you're going to call someone out, Ruin, you need to make sure you're in the right.
My friends and I are guessing that Magnus will win and Fenris will be destroyed making the Space Wolves a fleet bound chapter. Lion will be killed, and Cypher will take his place. Calling it now. For once, the bad guys will actually win.
As for all the complaining, it's just a rehash of Imp Knights. People complain that it's not fair, shouldn't be allowed, etc etc, blah blah. Then once they actually play against them, realize it's not a big deal.
I don't see them bringing back the Lion for a one-off with Magnus just to immediately die in a throw-away campaign book that will be obsolete with the release of 8th edition in 6 months.
People making their own stories doesn't make GW any significant money, especially now that there are no Warhammer 40kRPGs at the moment with FFG's contract expired.
If a minis company wants to make more money, they need to make new minis to sell. And the best way to do that is to advance the plot. You can only do the "Oh, they actually had this all along!" thing so often and it doesn't drum up nearly as much excitement.
Also, the setting doesn't have to end. If the loyalist primarchs and the daemon primarchs awake or come out at the same time, they kind of cancel each other out in a way, just with a lot more superman punching (and even the superman punching doesn't have to be in every WH40k story. It's a huge galaxy and I doubt all the primarchs can even begin to be everywhere at once. Look at how there are only some AoS stories that feature Nagash and Alarielle and Sigmar, and Malerion on the battlefield, all of whom are now tangible walking gods, while the majority of AoS official stories don't. And I don't think there's been many or any stories that feature any two gods fighting each other in the AoS timeline to my knowledge.
True or not, I don't think it's unlikely at all for the lion to return and if wrath of Magnus is any indication, he would come with a campaign book of goodies.
All I'm praying for is that they turn 40k into a threeway battle with the return of the primarchs. They weren't terribly amused about the high lords of terra even way back when. For a cluesless primarch to return right now and look at the imperium, it would look an awful lot like Horus was right after all. Of course looking at the misshapen abominations that so many legionnaires have become, not to mention being mindless slaves to their gods, they might think that serving the chaos gods might not be the solution either lol
Roknar wrote: True or not, I don't think it's unlikely at all for the lion to return and if wrath of Magnus is any indication, he would come with a campaign book of goodies.
All I'm praying for is that they turn 40k into a threeway battle with the return of the primarchs. They weren't terribly amused about the high lords of terra even way back when. For a cluesless primarch to return right now and look at the imperium, it would look an awful lot like Horus was right after all. Of course looking at the misshapen abominations that so many legionnaires have become, not to mention being mindless slaves to their gods, they might think that serving the chaos gods might not be the solution either lol
Normally I am not a fan of the whole Primarch concept because its a bit too hero focused and relegates the common man (including all the elite things like space marines, nobz, lychguard, etc) to being irrelevant. That said if we get a renegade side with Konrad Curze having faked his death to be the Primarch version of batman against both sides then ill at least be interested in seeing how things develop
BoomWolf wrote: Yodhrin, you made one mistake in your analysis.
Unlike 30k, is not just IoM vs chaos. There are other players involved, some as small as the tau, others as massive as the necron and nids.
The primes alone, do not make the story any more, as they got competitors all over the place, and not everyone is playing the same game.
Really?? Any Primarch will facesmash the Tau, they have NOTHING to stand against them. They had a very tenuous existence considering any large scale conflict could just wipe them out. Even Farsight would fold very fast.
The Necrons, unless the Silent king returns and unites them again, I don't see them standing up to the IoM for long if Super Duper Primarchs return.
Orcs probably will be about, and the Eldar? A crusade against any Wraithworld and it is Toast. Dark Eldar, might survive, might unless Khan stomps them from within.
The Primarchs in 40k is what they did with fantasy with End times regardless of the shiny models we may get.
While it won't be as big as AoS wiping fantasy clean, it's going to be bad. Very bad.
And it's begun.
S.Y.
Will be looking very forward to your exiting of the game then, since it causes you so much anguish
The joy of fantasy and sci fi is that everything and anything can happen.
"Primarchs will smash *"
If you think that on the gaming table it would be that easy, you are sadly mistaken and as far as lore goes there is a never ending range of ways to tie things down or balance them.
The world evolves as do the races and the characters.
I get it, you have bought in and have been drinking the Flavor Aid that rumor mongers have been feeding even though none of the credible ones have said anything to support what you are saying and you are scared.
No reason to be up in everyone else's grill about it.
I think I have a right to be scared when a single model can determine the fate of a game, and you need to counter it with an equally powerful figure. that doesn't seem to fit the theme of 40k compared to 30k. Will i be required to take x or y just to counter big poppa Magnus or whomever. Or even worse Ally with somebody who can?
30k was about titanic individuals fighting against each other like the legends of Hercules or Perseus. 40k was about your, army your leader if that becomes a kind of warmmachine 30k hybrid thats not the game I signed up for is it?
if you dont think Primarchs wont smash literally half your opponents force then yeah, okay! I overreacted. But if they don't why bother? will Draigo Get a superboost as hes supossed to be able to go toe to toe with them if not, They are kinda weak for demigods.
Angron was only for Apoc games. Knights you can ago are kinda Lords of war, but you can field an army of them, if faced them its a face roll army. Its Power creep... flyers okay i see ill just have an ati air unit... now bigger n bigger.... I already needed a ridiculous amount of Kits just to be able to handle the Landraider spam I face weekly. If they add Demigod like things what separates it from 30k? a few weapon profiles?, the odd rule?
I'm talking as a Chaos player, (perhaps the most ignored of the 4 major cult players but still) I don't want the Primarch of the EC. Am I happy about the TS stuff? yes absolutely, i'll be jumping in.
Im not going to leave. but I dont want 40k to be AoS 2.0
S.Y.
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Gamgee wrote: Also for the record people in the 40k community call it the end times, but it's not the end times. Very reliable rumor mongers have said the setting will not detonate and be restarted like 99.9999% accuracy rating rumor folks.
It's a large lore advancement but it won't see the universe blown up like age of sigmar. It's just easier saying end times than advancing times.
BoomWolf wrote: Yodhrin, you made one mistake in your analysis.
Unlike 30k, is not just IoM vs chaos. There are other players involved, some as small as the tau, others as massive as the necron and nids.
The primes alone, do not make the story any more, as they got competitors all over the place, and not everyone is playing the same game.
Really?? Any Primarch will facesmash the Tau, they have NOTHING to stand against them. They had a very tenuous existence considering any large scale conflict could just wipe them out. Even Farsight would fold very fast.
The Necrons, unless the Silent king returns and unites them again, I don't see them standing up to the IoM for long if Super Duper Primarchs return.
Orcs probably will be about, and the Eldar? A crusade against any Wraithworld and it is Toast. Dark Eldar, might survive, might unless Khan stomps them from within.
The Primarchs in 40k is what they did with fantasy with End times regardless of the shiny models we may get.
While it won't be as big as AoS wiping fantasy clean, it's going to be bad. Very bad.
And it's begun.
S.Y.
What do you think the Xenos races are going to do during the end times? Regress? Lose models? Cease existing? Not participate? They are very much apart of these ends times. Much like in age of sigmar where all the factions had something cool and interesting going on all the factions here have something interesting (and all got cool models). I don't expect any faction to be farting rainbows either it's going to be dark and tough times all around for the 40k protagonist factions. They'll likely all get stuff to match a primarch even if it's not directly a primarch.
I think they will be folded probably like what happened to warhammer on the worst case. On the best Possibly some HUUGEEE uber kit you need to compete even at a friendly level. If people thing going from a Personalized army to a characters one is fine. okay enjoy your 30kAoS/warmachine hybrid
Roknar wrote: True or not, I don't think it's unlikely at all for the lion to return and if wrath of Magnus is any indication, he would come with a campaign book of goodies.
All I'm praying for is that they turn 40k into a threeway battle with the return of the primarchs. They weren't terribly amused about the high lords of terra even way back when. For a cluesless primarch to return right now and look at the imperium, it would look an awful lot like Horus was right after all. Of course looking at the misshapen abominations that so many legionnaires have become, not to mention being mindless slaves to their gods, they might think that serving the chaos gods might not be the solution either lol
Normally I am not a fan of the whole Primarch concept because its a bit too hero focused and relegates the common man (including all the elite things like space marines, nobz, lychguard, etc) to being irrelevant. That said if we get a renegade side with Konrad Curze having faked his death to be the Primarch version of batman against both sides then ill at least be interested in seeing how things develop
Plus it would move on the story while at the same time creating another stalemate. Renegade primarchs wouldn't have the resources to seriously threaten either the imperium or traitor marines, but they sure could cause a lot of damage.
I don't see how a primarch could be a greater thread to any xenos race than an Emperor class titan for example. Do you really think they could easily shrug-off a barrage of Stormsurge D-missiles?
Also, with the 13th Black Crusade now starting they won't have time do deal with the High Lords. So I really don't see the Universe breaking effects others fear.
Ragnar69 wrote: I don't see how a primarch could be a greater thread to any xenos race than an Emperor class titan for example. Do you really think they could easily shrug-off a barrage of Stormsurge D-missiles?
Also, with the 13th Black Crusade now starting they won't have time do deal with the High Lords. So I really don't see the Universe breaking effects others fear.
Its bad though when your required to take that. Just to compete. I expect Farsight to get a Heroic form though.
If Gulliman comes back hes defacto leader of the Imperium. Meaning the Ultramarines RUN the Imperium Unless they wake dad up.
By all accounts, the 100 worlds of the Ultramarine Empire is one of the smoothest operating, efficient, safe, and prosperous places in the shithole that is the Imperium.
Why the feth wouldn't I want them running the show?
I want to be a citizen of their fething worlds, not the high lords of Terra.
Ragnar69 wrote: I don't see how a primarch could be a greater thread to any xenos race than an Emperor class titan for example. Do you really think they could easily shrug-off a barrage of Stormsurge D-missiles?
Also, with the 13th Black Crusade now starting they won't have time do deal with the High Lords. So I really don't see the Universe breaking effects others fear.
Its bad though when your required to take that. Just to compete. I expect Farsight to get a Heroic form though.
If Gulliman comes back hes defacto leader of the Imperium. Meaning the Ultramarines RUN the Imperium Unless they wake dad up.
If you are fine with that. okie dokie.
S.Y.
In-universe power level != tabletop power level. Magnus is a massive Daemon Prince and I expect him to not be a "need to take" model, personally.
If we were going off of that, then why would you ever play a game with Fateweaver in it? He can see the future and is the most powerful wizard ever short of Tzeentch. But... he's there, and he's not gamebreakingly powerful (not compared to anything else out there, anyway). He's easily as strong or stronger than a Primarch. Skarbrand as well, if you want to get into it.
Primarchs coming back aren't going to break the background. Stop fearmongering and doomsaying.
Ragnar69 wrote: I don't see how a primarch could be a greater thread to any xenos race than an Emperor class titan for example. Do you really think they could easily shrug-off a barrage of Stormsurge D-missiles?
Also, with the 13th Black Crusade now starting they won't have time do deal with the High Lords. So I really don't see the Universe breaking effects others fear.
Its bad though when your required to take that. Just to compete. I expect Farsight to get a Heroic form though.
If Gulliman comes back hes defacto leader of the Imperium. Meaning the Ultramarines RUN the Imperium Unless they wake dad up.
If you are fine with that. okie dokie.
S.Y.
You are already forced to take stuff to compete. Sure, facing a primarch unprepared sucks. But not more than facing 5 Knights or 60 scatbikes. 40k is already highly unbalanced, a few more models won't change that a bit.
If Guiliman would come back, it would take him decades or even centuries to take over the leadership of the Imperium even if nobody would resist him, just because it is so huge.
Ragnar69 wrote: I don't see how a primarch could be a greater thread to any xenos race than an Emperor class titan for example. Do you really think they could easily shrug-off a barrage of Stormsurge D-missiles?
Also, with the 13th Black Crusade now starting they won't have time do deal with the High Lords. So I really don't see the Universe breaking effects others fear.
Its bad though when your required to take that. Just to compete. I expect Farsight to get a Heroic form though.
If Gulliman comes back hes defacto leader of the Imperium. Meaning the Ultramarines RUN the Imperium Unless they wake dad up.
If you are fine with that. okie dokie.
S.Y.
In-universe power level != tabletop power level. Magnus is a massive Daemon Prince and I expect him to not be a "need to take" model, personally.
If we were going off of that, then why would you ever play a game with Fateweaver in it? He can see the future and is the most powerful wizard ever short of Tzeentch. But... he's there, and he's not gamebreakingly powerful (not compared to anything else out there, anyway). He's easily as strong or stronger than a Primarch. Skarbrand as well, if you want to get into it.
Primarchs coming back aren't going to break the background. Stop fearmongering and doomsaying.
You know people were saying the exact same thing about the End Times in Warhammer look how that turned out.... I understood why they did it but if 40k sells so well why??
I don't take characters period. To me they are cool figures to paint but in game I prefer not to use them. No tell a lie I used Grom the Paunch once, reinacting the battle of the invasion.
Primarchs belong in 30k not 40k. How is it fearmongering to say this would fundamentally change the state of playing the game and the background of it also when it totally will?
Ragnar69 wrote: I don't see how a primarch could be a greater thread to any xenos race than an Emperor class titan for example. Do you really think they could easily shrug-off a barrage of Stormsurge D-missiles?
Also, with the 13th Black Crusade now starting they won't have time do deal with the High Lords. So I really don't see the Universe breaking effects others fear.
Its bad though when your required to take that. Just to compete. I expect Farsight to get a Heroic form though.
If Gulliman comes back hes defacto leader of the Imperium. Meaning the Ultramarines RUN the Imperium Unless they wake dad up.
If you are fine with that. okie dokie.
S.Y.
You are already forced to take stuff to compete. Sure, facing a primarch unprepared sucks. But not more than facing 5 Knights or 60 scatbikes. 40k is already highly unbalanced, a few more models won't change that a bit.
If Guiliman would come back, it would take him decades or even centuries to take over the leadership of the Imperium even if nobody would resist him, just because it is so huge.
You do know technically he still has a seat in the high Lord's right?
Wouldn't be that long as he's sooooo good at everything.
While I may grumble at sacrificing some of my armies theme for a Large model killer, ill need to take an uber hero too?
Please No
The fearmongering about Primarchs coming back needs to stop
regardless of how you feel about them, Im willing to bet 40k would be no where near as popular if it wasn't for the 30k era/Horus Heresy/Primarchs....people want to see these superhumans back
LightKing wrote: The fearmongering about Primarchs coming back needs to stop
regardless of how you feel about them, Im willing to bet 40k would be no where near as popular if it wasn't for the 30k era/Horus Heresy/Primarchs....people want to see these superhumans back
That's a very good point. And there's a game for exactly that. 30k.
In fact I'm willing to bet pre heresy Magnus will be cheaper than the DP version.
S.Y.
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Vash108 wrote: There would more than likely be friction between Lion and Guiliman about the state of affairs and how to proceed.
I wonder what each of them would say with how the Imperium is run and just the general state of things.
The Lion would probably wait like he did before. He's probably the least Damaging of the Primarchs Imperial side to do anything massively plot influence wise.
Looking at the 30k points values for Primarchs, they are roughly the cost of a Knight, even Horus. I can't see anything overly game-breaking happening with Primarchs that wouldn't already have happened with Knights.
You know people were saying the exact same thing about the End Times in Warhammer look how that turned out.... I understood why they did it but if 40k sells so well why??
Apples to oranges. EVERY reliable rumormonger has said that 40k is just moving forward and not exploding like Fantasy did. And many people like big events and campaigns. More material to read and consume is a good thing for consumers.
I don't take characters period. To me they are cool figures to paint but in game I prefer not to use them. No tell a lie I used Grom the Paunch once, reinacting the battle of the invasion.
Cool. Thousands (millions?) of players still do.
Primarchs belong in 30k not 40k.
That's complete opinion, and one that the people captaining the ship don't agree with.
How is it fearmongering to say this would fundamentally change the state of playing the game and the background of it also when it totally will?
It's fearmongering to say things like:
"While it won't be as big as AoS wiping fantasy clean, it's going to be bad. Very bad."
"a single model can determine the fate of a game"
"Its bad though when your required to take that. Just to compete."
In comparison, Primarchs aren't any more worldbreaking than Fateweaver, Skarbrand, Eldrad, or The Beast (which Ghazkull is supposed to become the successor to).
LightKing wrote: The fearmongering about Primarchs coming back needs to stop
regardless of how you feel about them, Im willing to bet 40k would be no where near as popular if it wasn't for the 30k era/Horus Heresy/Primarchs....people want to see these superhumans back
That's a very good point. And there's a game for exactly that. 30k.
In fact I'm willing to bet pre heresy Magnus will be cheaper than the DP version.
S.Y.
.
Ooops, nevermind, probably talking about points, not $$$
You know people were saying the exact same thing about the End Times in Warhammer look how that turned out.... I understood why they did it but if 40k sells so well why??
Apples to oranges. EVERY reliable rumormonger has said that 40k is just moving forward and not exploding like Fantasy did. And many people like big events and campaigns. More material to read and consume is a good thing for consumers.
I don't take characters period. To me they are cool figures to paint but in game I prefer not to use them. No tell a lie I used Grom the Paunch once, reinacting the battle of the invasion.
Cool. Thousands (millions?) of players still do.
Primarchs belong in 30k not 40k.
That's complete opinion, and one that the people captaining the ship don't agree with.
How is it fearmongering to say this would fundamentally change the state of playing the game and the background of it also when it totally will?
It's fearmongering to say things like:
"While it won't be as big as AoS wiping fantasy clean, it's going to be bad. Very bad."
"a single model can determine the fate of a game"
"Its bad though when your required to take that. Just to compete."
In comparison, Primarchs aren't any more worldbreaking than Fateweaver, Skarbrand, Eldrad, or The Beast (which Ghazkull is supposed to become the successor to).
How is opinion to say that a game about Troy should have Achilles where as a game about modern Greece shouldn't bad?
It's not what the game was its a fundamental change you have to admit that.
While some may call it fear mongering I think people need to be prepared to how gamebreaking they are going to be Plot and gameplay wise. It is going to be bad considering how they handled previous attempts of moving the plot forward.
AoS could exactly be called that moving the plot forward as after all Archon is still kicking as is Nagash. But not if you play Bretonians or Tomb Kings. I'm expecting something to get cut. And that is bad. It is.
You know I'm all for Campaigns as long as they don't alter the base game. Storm of Chaos was a perfect example.
Slayer armies were better suited against armies in that book or are completely broken rules filled with just masses of Elite units fine against armies that had zip to compete? But not everyone wants to be forced to play Storm of Chaos. That is what primachs will do.
Would you let someone take a War of the Beard Elf army against anything other than itself or the opposing Dwarf one? It's extremely powerful compared to others.
We will see won't we if we're forced into Primarchammer. Which I have a feeling we will be and I don't want that. If you do good fine I'm happy for you.
Read this from Crimson: "GW already made an entire game to cater to people who want to use Primarchs. Why do we need them in 40K too? They obviously fit in 30K but they utterly ruin the theme of 40K."
Crimson specifically talking about the GAME of 30k is where Primarchs should stay and that Primarchs in the GAME of 40k ruins his theme.
Yes, THEME! I was talking about fluff. The fluff of the game is part of the game. I have no problem with powerful models per se, I think Daemon Primarchs getting models is cool.
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unmercifulconker wrote: Checked on Adeptus Astartes and he posted this, is this where the rumour came from? I dunno what im supposed to believe.
Shame, was really liking those rumours.
Oh thank you!
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kronk wrote: By all accounts, the 100 worlds of the Ultramarine Empire is one of the smoothest operating, efficient, safe, and prosperous places in the shithole that is the Imperium.
Why the feth wouldn't I want them running the show?
I want to be a citizen of their fething worlds, not the high lords of Terra.
Because a huge part of 40K's appeal is that Imperium is a dystopia.
Roknar wrote: True or not, I don't think it's unlikely at all for the lion to return and if wrath of Magnus is any indication, he would come with a campaign book of goodies.
All I'm praying for is that they turn 40k into a threeway battle with the return of the primarchs. They weren't terribly amused about the high lords of terra even way back when. For a cluesless primarch to return right now and look at the imperium, it would look an awful lot like Horus was right after all. Of course looking at the misshapen abominations that so many legionnaires have become, not to mention being mindless slaves to their gods, they might think that serving the chaos gods might not be the solution either lol
Normally I am not a fan of the whole Primarch concept because its a bit too hero focused and relegates the common man (including all the elite things like space marines, nobz, lychguard, etc) to being irrelevant. That said if we get a renegade side with Konrad Curze having faked his death to be the Primarch version of batman against both sides then ill at least be interested in seeing how things develop
But this is true in real life as well. You never know the names of the squad that died saving a detachment of men held under fire by the enemy. You hear of the officer who lead them. Or in the rare case of a Medal of Honor, you hear of the individual who did a heroic feat (hero-hammer) and made a name for himself.
StupidYellow... of course a primarch should be able to smash half an army. They'll likely cost as much as half an army.
This is becoming irritating as all get out. People keep making this crap up and then acting surprised when it gets "shared by rumor sites". You post it on forums or groups or whereever, members share it (not necessarily knowing it was "made up") and then it spreads...
Read this from Crimson: "GW already made an entire game to cater to people who want to use Primarchs. Why do we need them in 40K too? They obviously fit in 30K but they utterly ruin the theme of 40K."
Crimson specifically talking about the GAME of 30k is where Primarchs should stay and that Primarchs in the GAME of 40k ruins his theme.
Yes, THEME! I was talking about fluff. The fluff of the game is part of the game. I have no problem with powerful models per se, I think Daemon Primarchs getting models is cool.
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unmercifulconker wrote: Checked on Adeptus Astartes and he posted this, is this where the rumour came from? I dunno what im supposed to believe.
Shame, was really liking those rumours.
Oh thank you!
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kronk wrote: By all accounts, the 100 worlds of the Ultramarine Empire is one of the smoothest operating, efficient, safe, and prosperous places in the shithole that is the Imperium.
Why the feth wouldn't I want them running the show?
I want to be a citizen of their fething worlds, not the high lords of Terra.
Because a huge part of 40K's appeal is that Imperium is a dystopia.
Ragnar69 wrote: I don't see how a primarch could be a greater thread to any xenos race than an Emperor class titan for example. Do you really think they could easily shrug-off a barrage of Stormsurge D-missiles?
Also, with the 13th Black Crusade now starting they won't have time do deal with the High Lords. So I really don't see the Universe breaking effects others fear.
Its bad though when your required to take that. Just to compete. I expect Farsight to get a Heroic form though.
If Gulliman comes back hes defacto leader of the Imperium. Meaning the Ultramarines RUN the Imperium Unless they wake dad up.
If you are fine with that. okie dokie.
S.Y.
In-universe power level != tabletop power level. Magnus is a massive Daemon Prince and I expect him to not be a "need to take" model, personally.
If we were going off of that, then why would you ever play a game with Fateweaver in it? He can see the future and is the most powerful wizard ever short of Tzeentch. But... he's there, and he's not gamebreakingly powerful (not compared to anything else out there, anyway). He's easily as strong or stronger than a Primarch. Skarbrand as well, if you want to get into it.
Primarchs coming back aren't going to break the background. Stop fearmongering and doomsaying.
But, but! Imperial Knights and Wraith Knights were promised to break the game too! They were going to be the end of all fair play!
You know people were saying the exact same thing about the End Times in Warhammer look how that turned out.... I understood why they did it but if 40k sells so well why??
Apples to oranges. EVERY reliable rumormonger has said that 40k is just moving forward and not exploding like Fantasy did. And many people like big events and campaigns. More material to read and consume is a good thing for consumers.
I don't take characters period. To me they are cool figures to paint but in game I prefer not to use them. No tell a lie I used Grom the Paunch once, reinacting the battle of the invasion.
Cool. Thousands (millions?) of players still do.
Primarchs belong in 30k not 40k.
That's complete opinion, and one that the people captaining the ship don't agree with.
How is it fearmongering to say this would fundamentally change the state of playing the game and the background of it also when it totally will?
It's fearmongering to say things like:
"While it won't be as big as AoS wiping fantasy clean, it's going to be bad. Very bad."
"a single model can determine the fate of a game"
"Its bad though when your required to take that. Just to compete."
In comparison, Primarchs aren't any more worldbreaking than Fateweaver, Skarbrand, Eldrad, or The Beast (which Ghazkull is supposed to become the successor to).
How is opinion to say that a game about Troy should have Achilles where as a game about modern Greece shouldn't bad?
It's not what the game was its a fundamental change you have to admit that.
While some may call it fear mongering I think people need to be prepared to how gamebreaking they are going to be Plot and gameplay wise. It is going to be bad considering how they handled previous attempts of moving the plot forward.
AoS could exactly be called that moving the plot forward as after all Archon is still kicking as is Nagash. But not if you play Bretonians or Tomb Kings. I'm expecting something to get cut. And that is bad. It is.
You know I'm all for Campaigns as long as they don't alter the base game. Storm of Chaos was a perfect example.
Slayer armies were better suited against armies in that book or are completely broken rules filled with just masses of Elite units fine against armies that had zip to compete? But not everyone wants to be forced to play Storm of Chaos. That is what primachs will do.
Would you let someone take a War of the Beard Elf army against anything other than itself or the opposing Dwarf one?
We will see won't we if we're forced into Primarchammer. Which I have a feeling we will be and I don't want that. If you do good fine I'm happy for you.
S.Y.
Primarchs have been in the game longer than most Xenos factions. Leman Russ was part of Rogue Trader and not Apocalypse only. The game changes as the years go on, they've been making 40k for more than 30 years now, I think it's insane to expect it to stay exactly the same over that stretch of time (especially when every single person has a different idea of what "correct and best" 40k is like).
Continued comparisons to Fantasy/AoS is illogical. Two completely different games and IP situations.
LightKing wrote: The fact is you ask most 40k fans if they want the loyalist primarchs back, the vast majority would say Yes....
I honestly don't see how The Lion coming back is any more "setting breaking" than Abaddon or the various other superhuman level characters out there
Many Chapter Masters have performed feats equal to what was attributed to Primarchs at this point. They probably aren't as strong just because of gene-seed whatevers, but Dante and Logan are basically talked about as if they're gods among Space Marines.
The plot needs to advance and GW have painted themselves into a corner. The End Times are the only solution. Not a good solution, but the only one.
No...it...doesn't.
Only time it needs to do that is if 40k is story. It's not. Never been. It's SETTING to allow players to MAKE THEIR OWN STORIES!
Changing setting means players either can't use ANYTHING GW publishesh or their stories gets wiped out constantly. Making player stories as meaningless as in AOS(where GW also made another screwup by deliberately designing it so that nobody CAN win. It's endless stalemate).
Setting has to advance is myth by those who can't separate story and setting.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
StupidYellow wrote: The Lion would probably wait like he did before. He's probably the least Damaging of the Primarchs Imperial side to do anything massively plot influence wise.
S.Y.
Yeah. He's just civil war quaranteed unless GW wants to break up all core concepts of 40k by plotholing it.
The plot needs to advance and GW have painted themselves into a corner. The End Times are the only solution. Not a good solution, but the only one.
No...it...doesn't.
Only time it needs to do that is if 40k is story. It's not. Never been. It's SETTING to allow players to MAKE THEIR OWN STORIES!
Changing setting means players either can't use ANYTHING GW publishesh or their stories gets wiped out constantly. Making player stories as meaningless as in AOS(where GW also made another screwup by deliberately designing it so that nobody CAN win. It's endless stalemate).
Setting has to advance is myth by those who can't separate story and setting.
The other side of the coin is this: "Setting cannot advance without breaking everything" is a myth by those who cannot accept change.
There's always two sides, neither more correct than the other. A setting doesn't have to change. But it can, and that's what's happening. It's not intrinsically a good or bad thing, it's just a thing that is.
Daemon Primarchs? Bring 'em on. They still exist in the setting, they existed in Epic way back in the day, including them doesn't change anything about the 40K universe.
Loyalist Primarchs? Keep 'em out. One of the best themes of the entire setting is that the heroes of old are lost and gone. Those who have fallen to evil gain immortality, but those who fight for good are only mortals.
If they brought them back my reaction would be: "Leman Russ is gonna get a face full of Grav/Las/Melta. Bring it on."
You know people were saying the exact same thing about the End Times in Warhammer look how that turned out.... I understood why they did it but if 40k sells so well why??
Apples to oranges. EVERY reliable rumormonger has said that 40k is just moving forward and not exploding like Fantasy did. And many people like big events and campaigns. More material to read and consume is a good thing for consumers.
I don't take characters period. To me they are cool figures to paint but in game I prefer not to use them. No tell a lie I used Grom the Paunch once, reinacting the battle of the invasion.
Cool. Thousands (millions?) of players still do.
Primarchs belong in 30k not 40k.
That's complete opinion, and one that the people captaining the ship don't agree with.
How is it fearmongering to say this would fundamentally change the state of playing the game and the background of it also when it totally will?
It's fearmongering to say things like:
"While it won't be as big as AoS wiping fantasy clean, it's going to be bad. Very bad."
"a single model can determine the fate of a game"
"Its bad though when your required to take that. Just to compete."
In comparison, Primarchs aren't any more worldbreaking than Fateweaver, Skarbrand, Eldrad, or The Beast (which Ghazkull is supposed to become the successor to).
How is opinion to say that a game about Troy should have Achilles where as a game about modern Greece shouldn't bad?
It's not what the game was its a fundamental change you have to admit that.
While some may call it fear mongering I think people need to be prepared to how gamebreaking they are going to be Plot and gameplay wise. It is going to be bad considering how they handled previous attempts of moving the plot forward.
AoS could exactly be called that moving the plot forward as after all Archon is still kicking as is Nagash. But not if you play Bretonians or Tomb Kings. I'm expecting something to get cut. And that is bad. It is.
You know I'm all for Campaigns as long as they don't alter the base game. Storm of Chaos was a perfect example.
Slayer armies were better suited against armies in that book or are completely broken rules filled with just masses of Elite units fine against armies that had zip to compete? But not everyone wants to be forced to play Storm of Chaos. That is what primachs will do.
Would you let someone take a War of the Beard Elf army against anything other than itself or the opposing Dwarf one?
We will see won't we if we're forced into Primarchammer. Which I have a feeling we will be and I don't want that. If you do good fine I'm happy for you.
S.Y.
Primarchs have been in the game longer than most Xenos factions. Leman Russ was part of Rogue Trader and not Apocalypse only. The game changes as the years go on, they've been making 40k for more than 30 years now, I think it's insane to expect it to stay exactly the same over that stretch of time (especially when every single person has a different idea of what "correct and best" 40k is like).
Continued comparisons to Fantasy/AoS is illogical. Two completely different games and IP situations.
You see Russ returning is a little different as he's probably on par to Grimnar with his sleigh I'm guessing maybe with IWnD and a few more Wounds / Attacks, he's also the last Primarch to vanish I believe?. Grimnar is basically the strongest Wolf Since Russ I actually remember him in game, then again imperial robot rules were a little micro management system in themselves back then. The game was very different. If the games returning to its roots that's cool. But. It's not been that way for 20odd years the big shake up seems odd to say the least. If Primachs Swinging in is happening I'd be quite willing to trade those for Squats in game, my lvl 4 w8 Ancestor lord please.
Ill refrain from AoS comparison then. However at worst we could see it happen. As nobody knows what's going on with Gw now. It's probable though.
Maybe I jumped the gun a little. Maybe. But it is going alter the fluff and game Significantly regardless.
Only time it needs to do that is if 40k is story. It's not. Never been. It's SETTING to allow players to MAKE THEIR OWN STORIES!
Changing setting means players either can't use ANYTHING GW publishesh or their stories gets wiped out constantly. Making player stories as meaningless as in AOS
Your stories are already meaningless, no matter what your special snowflake army does on backwaters planet X the Imperium will still fall.
The plot needs to advance and GW have painted themselves into a corner. The End Times are the only solution. Not a good solution, but the only one.
No...it...doesn't.
Only time it needs to do that is if 40k is story. It's not. Never been. It's SETTING to allow players to MAKE THEIR OWN STORIES!
Changing setting means players either can't use ANYTHING GW publishesh or their stories gets wiped out constantly. Making player stories as meaningless as in AOS(where GW also made another screwup by deliberately designing it so that nobody CAN win. It's endless stalemate).
Setting has to advance is myth by those who can't separate story and setting.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
StupidYellow wrote: The Lion would probably wait like he did before. He's probably the least Damaging of the Primarchs Imperial side to do anything massively plot influence wise.
S.Y.
Yeah. He's just civil war quaranteed unless GW wants to break up all core concepts of 40k by plotholing it.
Players making their own stories will still happen for people who enjoy that aspect of 40k(which not everyone does, I don't care to write fluff and gameplay has always been more influenced by fluff than representative of it to me.), regardless. I mean, they completely nuked fantasy and people are still making their own fantasy stories, adding the primarchs back in will be like changing you desktop background to something really in your face, and that's the worst case.
The plot needs to advance and GW have painted themselves into a corner. The End Times are the only solution. Not a good solution, but the only one.
No...it...doesn't.
Only time it needs to do that is if 40k is story. It's not. Never been. It's SETTING to allow players to MAKE THEIR OWN STORIES!
Changing setting means players either can't use ANYTHING GW publishesh or their stories gets wiped out constantly. Making player stories as meaningless as in AOS(where GW also made another screwup by deliberately designing it so that nobody CAN win. It's endless stalemate).
Setting has to advance is myth by those who can't separate story and setting.
The other side of the coin is this:
"Setting cannot advance without breaking everything" is a myth by those who cannot accept change.
There's always two sides, neither more correct than the other. A setting doesn't have to change. But it can, and that's what's happening. It's not intrinsically a good or bad thing, it's just a thing that is.
That's simply not true. Tau altered the game, and although Fish of Frenzy was popular it was beatable.
There's a difference between adding a Character who rebuilt everything after a massive civil war. Just goes all you little people who fought yeah your stories mean Jack now I'm back. It changes the plot from your Captain fighting to him fighting. I'm not keen on Abaddon as honestly he's pathetically just limped along. They had to rewrite stuff just so he actually look like he accomplished anything.
And adding a race which adds a new gameplay and tactic. Adding an individual who takes over and steers the plot changes everything.
Change is fine. New races fine, New heroes ? Okay fine . Would you accept Horus returning?
I mean it be interesting but rather silly.
The plot needs to advance and GW have painted themselves into a corner. The End Times are the only solution. Not a good solution, but the only one.
No...it...doesn't.
Only time it needs to do that is if 40k is story. It's not. Never been. It's SETTING to allow players to MAKE THEIR OWN STORIES!
Changing setting means players either can't use ANYTHING GW publishesh or their stories gets wiped out constantly. Making player stories as meaningless as in AOS(where GW also made another screwup by deliberately designing it so that nobody CAN win. It's endless stalemate).
Setting has to advance is myth by those who can't separate story and setting.
The other side of the coin is this:
"Setting cannot advance without breaking everything" is a myth by those who cannot accept change.
There's always two sides, neither more correct than the other. A setting doesn't have to change. But it can, and that's what's happening. It's not intrinsically a good or bad thing, it's just a thing that is.
That's simply not true. Tau altered the game, and although Fish of Frenzy was popular it was beatable.
There's a difference between adding a Character who rebuilt everything after a massive civil war. Just goes all you little people who fought yeah your stories mean Jack now I'm back. It changes the plot from your Captain fighting to him fighting. I'm not keen on Abaddon as honestly he's pathetically just limped along. They had to rewrite stuff just so he actually look like he accomplished anything.
And adding a race which adds a new gameplay and tactic. Adding an individual who takes over and steers the plot changes everything.
Change is fine. New races fine, New heroes ? Okay fine . Would you accept Horus returning?
I mean it be interesting but rather silly.
The plot needs to advance and GW have painted themselves into a corner. The End Times are the only solution. Not a good solution, but the only one.
No...it...doesn't.
Only time it needs to do that is if 40k is story. It's not. Never been. It's SETTING to allow players to MAKE THEIR OWN STORIES!
Changing setting means players either can't use ANYTHING GW publishesh or their stories gets wiped out constantly. Making player stories as meaningless as in AOS(where GW also made another screwup by deliberately designing it so that nobody CAN win. It's endless stalemate).
Setting has to advance is myth by those who can't separate story and setting.
The other side of the coin is this:
"Setting cannot advance without breaking everything" is a myth by those who cannot accept change.
There's always two sides, neither more correct than the other. A setting doesn't have to change. But it can, and that's what's happening. It's not intrinsically a good or bad thing, it's just a thing that is.
That's simply not true. Tau altered the game, and although Fish of Frenzy was popular it was beatable.
There's a difference between adding a Character who rebuilt everything after a massive civil war. Just goes all you little people who fought yeah your stories mean Jack now I'm back. It changes the plot from your Captain fighting to him fighting. I'm not keen on Abaddon as honestly he's pathetically just limped along. They had to rewrite stuff just so he actually look like he accomplished anything.
And adding a race which adds a new gameplay and tactic. Adding an individual who takes over and steers the plot changes everything.
Change is fine. New races fine, New heroes ? Okay fine . Would you accept Horus returning?
I mean it be interesting but rather silly.
Please give me an example of how a Primarch returning will ruin everything for anybody. GW is not going to come to your door with a gun and force you to use a Primarch in your Space Marine army.
If you don't have any sort of actual specific situation you have in mind, then it is, by definition, baseless fearmongering.
Roknar wrote: True or not, I don't think it's unlikely at all for the lion to return and if wrath of Magnus is any indication, he would come with a campaign book of goodies.
All I'm praying for is that they turn 40k into a threeway battle with the return of the primarchs. They weren't terribly amused about the high lords of terra even way back when. For a cluesless primarch to return right now and look at the imperium, it would look an awful lot like Horus was right after all. Of course looking at the misshapen abominations that so many legionnaires have become, not to mention being mindless slaves to their gods, they might think that serving the chaos gods might not be the solution either lol
Normally I am not a fan of the whole Primarch concept because its a bit too hero focused and relegates the common man (including all the elite things like space marines, nobz, lychguard, etc) to being irrelevant. That said if we get a renegade side with Konrad Curze having faked his death to be the Primarch version of batman against both sides then ill at least be interested in seeing how things develop
Exactky, It completely remove the grimdark aspect of 40k and turns it into a manga. It's a very unfortunate development
Only time it needs to do that is if 40k is story. It's not. Never been. It's SETTING to allow players to MAKE THEIR OWN STORIES!
Changing setting means players either can't use ANYTHING GW publishesh or their stories gets wiped out constantly. Making player stories as meaningless as in AOS
Your stories are already meaningless, no matter what your special snowflake army does on backwaters planet X the Imperium will still fall.
Exactly this.... Warhammer 40k was never about the "End Times" of the universe
It was always about the "End Times" of the Imperium...Humantiy is at the brink of destruction, 2 minutes to midnight.... no matter what SM chapters, or the imperial guard achieve on the battlefield, once the Emperor dies and the golden throne fails, Chaos will take over
Bringing loyalist primarchs back will not really change the fact. I don't see it "ruining" the setting
Roknar wrote: True or not, I don't think it's unlikely at all for the lion to return and if wrath of Magnus is any indication, he would come with a campaign book of goodies.
All I'm praying for is that they turn 40k into a threeway battle with the return of the primarchs. They weren't terribly amused about the high lords of terra even way back when. For a cluesless primarch to return right now and look at the imperium, it would look an awful lot like Horus was right after all. Of course looking at the misshapen abominations that so many legionnaires have become, not to mention being mindless slaves to their gods, they might think that serving the chaos gods might not be the solution either lol
Normally I am not a fan of the whole Primarch concept because its a bit too hero focused and relegates the common man (including all the elite things like space marines, nobz, lychguard, etc) to being irrelevant. That said if we get a renegade side with Konrad Curze having faked his death to be the Primarch version of batman against both sides then ill at least be interested in seeing how things develop
Exactky, It completely remove the grimdark aspect of 40k and turns it into a manga. It's a very unfortunate development
Again, how? One man, even a Primarch, is a blip in the face of the full power of Chaos. Heck, Dorn got beaten/killed (depending on retcons) by just a bunch of Word Bearers.
They're heroes to follow, for sure, but so are Logan, Dante, and Calgar. All of them are looked on in the same light as Primarchs in the 41st millennium - are they an "unfortunate development"?
You mean like how warhammer players are still fighting Beastmen in the great forest?
Certainly nothing to stop them. Meanwhile, Beastmen are still being fought in forests round our way in Age of Sigmar...
Always sad to see some beastmens. Really liked the concept, the fluff and the minis, and always wanted to have an army. Ordered 500$ worth of them a few days before AOS dropped. After seing what a disaster the rule were, I quickly cancelled the order
Read this from Crimson: "GW already made an entire game to cater to people who want to use Primarchs. Why do we need them in 40K too? They obviously fit in 30K but they utterly ruin the theme of 40K."
Crimson specifically talking about the GAME of 30k is where Primarchs should stay and that Primarchs in the GAME of 40k ruins his theme.
Yes, THEME! I was talking about fluff. The fluff of the game is part of the game. I have no problem with powerful models per se, I think Daemon Primarchs getting models is cool
So what was that about calling people out and making sure you're in the right?
Roknar wrote: True or not, I don't think it's unlikely at all for the lion to return and if wrath of Magnus is any indication, he would come with a campaign book of goodies.
All I'm praying for is that they turn 40k into a threeway battle with the return of the primarchs. They weren't terribly amused about the high lords of terra even way back when. For a cluesless primarch to return right now and look at the imperium, it would look an awful lot like Horus was right after all. Of course looking at the misshapen abominations that so many legionnaires have become, not to mention being mindless slaves to their gods, they might think that serving the chaos gods might not be the solution either lol
Normally I am not a fan of the whole Primarch concept because its a bit too hero focused and relegates the common man (including all the elite things like space marines, nobz, lychguard, etc) to being irrelevant. That said if we get a renegade side with Konrad Curze having faked his death to be the Primarch version of batman against both sides then ill at least be interested in seeing how things develop
Exactky, It completely remove the grimdark aspect of 40k and turns it into a manga. It's a very unfortunate development
Again, how? One man, even a Primarch, is a blip in the face of the full power of Chaos. Heck, Dorn got beaten/killed (depending on retcons) by just a bunch of Word Bearers.
They're heroes to follow, for sure, but so are Logan, Dante, and Calgar. All of them are looked on in the same light as Primarchs in the 41st millennium - are they an "unfortunate development"?
No they aren't. They are vastly superior power wise than the current upper tiered human. They won't bring back the primarch only to make them similar to chapter masters power wise. The scale of power just went up in the game, and it makes the little guy more irrevelent.
Why do people continue to treat time as a 2d object... just because GW is moving forward doesn't mean it's going to end. There is an infinite amount of time in between seconds on a clock, so GW can create infinite more stories during the end times.
LightKing wrote: People just want the fluff to advance, we literally been at the same point since the 80s
Not everyone does. There is plenty of gak between the year 30,000 and 40,000 that they can cover.
Yes their is plenty of stories to be told, but they are not. It's almost the same story being told over and over again. So after 30 years of this, it's time to move it forward. I think it's too late now to tell those stories that "could have been told but didn't".
I am sorry, I am tired of the Imperium of Man, be it human, Imperial Guard/Astra Millitarium, Space Marines, Inquitision, are on the brink, but manage to survie, but are still 5 minutes or 1 minute to midnight now. So all the stories that "could have been told" basically mean nothing now. After 30 years, I know I don't care for stories that could have been told and mean nothing. I rather see stories that can be told that mean something and can make a difference now.
That is just my opinion, I am not saying people who think the 40K storyline shouldn't change are wrong. I just think differently than they do.
Again, how? One man, even a Primarch, is a blip in the face of the full power of Chaos. Heck, Dorn got beaten/killed (depending on retcons) by just a bunch of Word Bearers.
They're heroes to follow, for sure, but so are Logan, Dante, and Calgar. All of them are looked on in the same light as Primarchs in the 41st millennium - are they an "unfortunate development"?
No they aren't. They are vastly superior power wise than the current upper tiered human. They won't bring back the primarch only to make them similar to chapter masters power wise. The scale of power just went up in the game, and it makes the little guy more irrevelent.
I think we, as a thread, need to be clear if we're talking about fluff or tabletop mechanics.
In the fluff, there's little difference to most people in the universe. Dante is 1100 years old and instagibbed Skarbrand. He's basically a god to most people who know his legacy. There's little difference between the powerful/legendary Chapter Masters and a Primarch fluff-wise.
On the tabletop - it's just a shift. I have no doubt they'll be awesome, but there's plenty of things out there that can kill even 30k Primarchs without too much trouble. It seems odd to complain about Primarchs messing up the scale of power when Destroyer Weapons, Stomp, GCs/SHVs, and some of the more insane psychic powers exist in the game. The balance is already borked, a Primarch is just a new hammer. Imperial armies may even just ignore them because Deathstars are too good and fitting another expensive character is hard.
The plot needs to advance and GW have painted themselves into a corner. The End Times are the only solution. Not a good solution, but the only one.
No...it...doesn't.
Only time it needs to do that is if 40k is story. It's not. Never been. It's SETTING to allow players to MAKE THEIR OWN STORIES!
Changing setting means players either can't use ANYTHING GW publishesh or their stories gets wiped out constantly. Making player stories as meaningless as in AOS(where GW also made another screwup by deliberately designing it so that nobody CAN win. It's endless stalemate).
Setting has to advance is myth by those who can't separate story and setting.
The other side of the coin is this:
"Setting cannot advance without breaking everything" is a myth by those who cannot accept change.
There's always two sides, neither more correct than the other. A setting doesn't have to change. But it can, and that's what's happening. It's not intrinsically a good or bad thing, it's just a thing that is.
That's simply not true. Tau altered the game, and although Fish of Frenzy was popular it was beatable.
There's a difference between adding a Character who rebuilt everything after a massive civil war. Just goes all you little people who fought yeah your stories mean Jack now I'm back. It changes the plot from your Captain fighting to him fighting. I'm not keen on Abaddon as honestly he's pathetically just limped along. They had to rewrite stuff just so he actually look like he accomplished anything.
And adding a race which adds a new gameplay and tactic. Adding an individual who takes over and steers the plot changes everything.
Change is fine. New races fine, New heroes ? Okay fine . Would you accept Horus returning?
I mean it be interesting but rather silly.
Please give me an example of how a Primarch returning will ruin everything for anybody. GW is not going to come to your door with a gun and force you to use a Primarch in your Space Marine army.
If you don't have any sort of actual specific situation you have in mind, then it is, by definition, baseless fearmongering.
I've already given several but fine if you require them listed
40k at the moment is rather faceless for the odd hero here and there correct? I mean you can take x or y hero but in average games you don't. Right? It's a game of countless battles of basically generic heroes and their entourage.
The plot doesn't revolve around them, nothing for winning or losing save for trying to come up with a new tactic.
If Primarchs return it will be THEIR story not ours. That's fine for a historical setting like 30k .
Nobody is going to force me to play with them of course. I can take my existing force (that's if it will still exist) and get soundly beaten by anyone who fields them. Unless I take a counter which is turning it from My Hero to GWs understand?
The plot possibly is about them, the game will be about them. It's going to be GWs version of Warmachine with Primarchs. That isn't 40k, to me that is not the game I want.
Again, how? One man, even a Primarch, is a blip in the face of the full power of Chaos. Heck, Dorn got beaten/killed (depending on retcons) by just a bunch of Word Bearers.
They're heroes to follow, for sure, but so are Logan, Dante, and Calgar. All of them are looked on in the same light as Primarchs in the 41st millennium - are they an "unfortunate development"?
No they aren't. They are vastly superior power wise than the current upper tiered human. They won't bring back the primarch only to make them similar to chapter masters power wise. The scale of power just went up in the game, and it makes the little guy more irrevelent.
I think we, as a thread, need to be clear if we're talking about fluff or tabletop mechanics.
In the fluff, there's little difference to most people in the universe. Dante is 1100 years old and instagibbed Skarbrand. He's basically a god to most people who know his legacy. There's little difference between the powerful/legendary Chapter Masters and a Primarch fluff-wise.
On the tabletop - it's just a shift. I have no doubt they'll be awesome, but there's plenty of things out there that can kill even 30k Primarchs without too much trouble. It seems odd to complain about Primarchs messing up the scale of power when Destroyer Weapons, Stomp, GCs/SHVs, and some of the more insane psychic powers exist in the game. The balance is already borked, a Primarch is just a new hammer. Imperial armies may even just ignore them because Deathstars are too good and fitting another expensive character is hard.
we haven't been reading the same fluff then. Sure there is some part that make it seems that chapter master are equal to primarch (The Draigo Mortarion stupidity comes to mind), but for the most part, Primarchs are considered vastly more powerfull in the fluff.
The plot needs to advance and GW have painted themselves into a corner. The End Times are the only solution. Not a good solution, but the only one.
No...it...doesn't.
Only time it needs to do that is if 40k is story. It's not. Never been. It's SETTING to allow players to MAKE THEIR OWN STORIES!
Changing setting means players either can't use ANYTHING GW publishesh or their stories gets wiped out constantly. Making player stories as meaningless as in AOS(where GW also made another screwup by deliberately designing it so that nobody CAN win. It's endless stalemate).
Setting has to advance is myth by those who can't separate story and setting.
The other side of the coin is this:
"Setting cannot advance without breaking everything" is a myth by those who cannot accept change.
There's always two sides, neither more correct than the other. A setting doesn't have to change. But it can, and that's what's happening. It's not intrinsically a good or bad thing, it's just a thing that is.
That's simply not true. Tau altered the game, and although Fish of Frenzy was popular it was beatable.
There's a difference between adding a Character who rebuilt everything after a massive civil war. Just goes all you little people who fought yeah your stories mean Jack now I'm back. It changes the plot from your Captain fighting to him fighting. I'm not keen on Abaddon as honestly he's pathetically just limped along. They had to rewrite stuff just so he actually look like he accomplished anything.
And adding a race which adds a new gameplay and tactic. Adding an individual who takes over and steers the plot changes everything.
Change is fine. New races fine, New heroes ? Okay fine . Would you accept Horus returning?
I mean it be interesting but rather silly.
Please give me an example of how a Primarch returning will ruin everything for anybody. GW is not going to come to your door with a gun and force you to use a Primarch in your Space Marine army.
If you don't have any sort of actual specific situation you have in mind, then it is, by definition, baseless fearmongering.
I've already given several but fine if you require them listed
40k at the moment is rather faceless for the odd hero here and there correct? I mean you can take x or y hero but in average games you don't. Right? It's a game of countless battles of basically generic heroes and their entourage.
The plot doesn't revolve around them, nothing for winning or losing save for trying to come up with a new tactic.
If Primarchs return it will be THEIR story not ours. That's fine for a historical setting like 30k .
Nobody is going to force me to play with them of course. I can take my existing force (that's if it will still exist) and get soundly beaten by anyone who fields them. Unless I take a counter which is turning it from My Hero to GWs understand?
The plot possibly is about them, the game will be about them. It's going to be GWs version of Warmachine with Primarchs. That isn't 40k, to me that is not the game I want.
GW of course can do what they like
S.Y.
Couldn't say it any better. They are not retunring the primarch to make them wingmans. They will now be the central protagonist of the story. They will be much more present than any of the chapter masters or SC currently are. (bar maybe abadadon) Which will make for a very boring setting imo.
StupidYellow wrote: I've already given several but fine if you require them listed
40k at the moment is rather faceless for the odd hero here and there correct? I mean you can take x or y hero but in average games you don't. Right? It's a game of countless battles of basically generic heroes and their entourage.
The plot doesn't revolve around them, nothing for winning or losing save for trying to come up with a new tactic.
If Primarchs return it will be THEIR story not ours. That's fine for a historical setting like 30k .
Nobody is going to force me to play with them of course. I can take my existing force (that's if it will still exist) and get soundly beaten by anyone who fields them. Unless I take a counter which is turning it from My Hero to GWs understand?
The plot possibly is about them, the game will be about them. It's going to be GWs version of Warmachine with Primarchs. That isn't 40k, to me that is not the game I want.
GW of course can do what they like
S.Y.
40k is in no way faceless. All you need to do is open a codex or read a campaign to know that. Even Raven Guard, who are a minor founding chapter in the scheme of things, have multiple named characters who are referenced in the fluff and played major parts in Warzone: Damocles. The fact that there are dozens of unique characters around whom the plot revolves around already means it's not faceless. If you play Space Marines and the actions of Calgar don't mean anything to you, why should the actions of Guilliman? That was the point of breaking up the Legions in the lore as it was - that one man could not control that many soldiers at once.
If you read any of the Black Library books or even the fluff sections of the codices, you know that it's already not your setting. Abbadon is launching Black Crusades. Logan is leading the defenses around Fenris and the Eye. Calgar is leading the forces of Ultramar in his sector. Imotekh is the driving force behind most of the Necrons actions across the galaxy. Eldrad is basically the only Eldar that does anything anymore, though other ones get their time in the limelight. Hell, even the Swarmlord is a face for the Tyranid army, which is about as close to faceless as you can get - when it's a massive Tyranid action or invasion, it's because the Swarmlord is there controlling things.
The setting already belongs to a bunch of characters across different factions. Adding a few more that are higher up on the totem pole means nothing in the long run.
Again, how? One man, even a Primarch, is a blip in the face of the full power of Chaos. Heck, Dorn got beaten/killed (depending on retcons) by just a bunch of Word Bearers.
They're heroes to follow, for sure, but so are Logan, Dante, and Calgar. All of them are looked on in the same light as Primarchs in the 41st millennium - are they an "unfortunate development"?
No they aren't. They are vastly superior power wise than the current upper tiered human. They won't bring back the primarch only to make them similar to chapter masters power wise. The scale of power just went up in the game, and it makes the little guy more irrevelent.
I think we, as a thread, need to be clear if we're talking about fluff or tabletop mechanics.
In the fluff, there's little difference to most people in the universe. Dante is 1100 years old and instagibbed Skarbrand. He's basically a god to most people who know his legacy. There's little difference between the powerful/legendary Chapter Masters and a Primarch fluff-wise.
On the tabletop - it's just a shift. I have no doubt they'll be awesome, but there's plenty of things out there that can kill even 30k Primarchs without too much trouble. It seems odd to complain about Primarchs messing up the scale of power when Destroyer Weapons, Stomp, GCs/SHVs, and some of the more insane psychic powers exist in the game. The balance is already borked, a Primarch is just a new hammer. Imperial armies may even just ignore them because Deathstars are too good and fitting another expensive character is hard.
we haven't been reading the same fluff then. Sure there is some part that make it seems that chapter master are equal to primarch (The Draigo Mortarion stupidity comes to mind), but for the most part, Primarchs are considered vastly more powerfull in the fluff.
Of course they are more powerful, but to the average mook there's no difference. A Primarch returning isn't going to herald the end of the Imperium, for most Imperial Citizens it just means someone else is calling the shots. See above. They might be stronger as a person and smarter, but that means nothing for the overall workings of the 40k galaxy. It just changes who is leading the forces. And there already are superhuman characters calling the shots.
StupidYellow wrote:
I've already given several but fine if you require them listed
40k at the moment is rather faceless for the odd hero here and there correct? I mean you can take x or y hero but in average games you don't. Right? It's a game of countless battles of basically generic heroes and their entourage.
The plot doesn't revolve around them, nothing for winning or losing save for trying to come up with a new tactic.
If Primarchs return it will be THEIR story not ours. That's fine for a historical setting like 30k .
Nobody is going to force me to play with them of course. I can take my existing force (that's if it will still exist) and get soundly beaten by anyone who fields them. Unless I take a counter which is turning it from My Hero to GWs understand?
The plot possibly is about them, the game will be about them. It's going to be GWs version of Warmachine with Primarchs. That isn't 40k, to me that is not the game I want.
GW of course can do what they like
S.Y.
40k is in no way faceless. All you need to do is open a codex or read a campaign to know that. Even Raven Guard, who are a minor founding chapter in the scheme of things, have multiple named characters who are referenced in the fluff and played major parts in Warzone: Damocles. The fact that there are dozens of unique characters around whom the plot revolves around already means it's not faceless. If you play Space Marines and the actions of Calgar don't mean anything to you, why should the actions of Guilliman? That was the point of breaking up the Legions in the lore as it was - that one man could not control that many soldiers at once.
If you read any of the Black Library books or even the fluff sections of the codices, you know that it's already not your setting. Abbadon is launching Black Crusades. Logan is leading the defenses around Fenris and the Eye. Calgar is leading the forces of Ultramar in his sector. Imotekh is the driving force behind most of the Necrons actions across the galaxy. Eldrad is basically the only Eldar that does anything anymore, though other ones get their time in the limelight. Hell, even the Swarmlord is a face for the Tyranid army, which is about as close to faceless as you can get - when it's a massive Tyranid action or invasion, it's because the Swarmlord is there controlling things.
The setting already belongs to a bunch of characters across different factions. Adding a few more that are higher up on the totem pole means nothing in the long run.
Again, how? One man, even a Primarch, is a blip in the face of the full power of Chaos. Heck, Dorn got beaten/killed (depending on retcons) by just a bunch of Word Bearers.
They're heroes to follow, for sure, but so are Logan, Dante, and Calgar. All of them are looked on in the same light as Primarchs in the 41st millennium - are they an "unfortunate development"?
No they aren't. They are vastly superior power wise than the current upper tiered human. They won't bring back the primarch only to make them similar to chapter masters power wise. The scale of power just went up in the game, and it makes the little guy more irrevelent.
I think we, as a thread, need to be clear if we're talking about fluff or tabletop mechanics.
In the fluff, there's little difference to most people in the universe. Dante is 1100 years old and instagibbed Skarbrand. He's basically a god to most people who know his legacy. There's little difference between the powerful/legendary Chapter Masters and a Primarch fluff-wise.
On the tabletop - it's just a shift. I have no doubt they'll be awesome, but there's plenty of things out there that can kill even 30k Primarchs without too much trouble. It seems odd to complain about Primarchs messing up the scale of power when Destroyer Weapons, Stomp, GCs/SHVs, and some of the more insane psychic powers exist in the game. The balance is already borked, a Primarch is just a new hammer. Imperial armies may even just ignore them because Deathstars are too good and fitting another expensive character is hard.
we haven't been reading the same fluff then. Sure there is some part that make it seems that chapter master are equal to primarch (The Draigo Mortarion stupidity comes to mind), but for the most part, Primarchs are considered vastly more powerfull in the fluff.
Of course they are more powerful, but to the average mook there's no difference. A Primarch returning isn't going to herald the end of the Imperium, for most Imperial Citizens it just means someone else is calling the shots. See above. They might be stronger as a person and smarter, but that means nothing for the overall workings of the 40k galaxy. It just changes who is leading the forces. And there already are superhuman characters calling the shots.
at the end of the day, there's always some heros/superhumans in every setting and story (even in real life, some guy can squat up to 11 plates, while a very strong dude can only squat 5. That's almost surhuman). The difference is the power scale between these heros and the average mook. THe introduction of primarchs up the power scale, and makes the game eer more toward superheroes than it is presently. And you can bet that if they re-introduce them, they'll be central to any plot/development in the future. You can be happy with this development, but saying that it doesn't dramatically change the setting of 40k is silly imo.
THe reapparition of the primarchs is as earth shattering in 40k as the reapparition of Jesus (if such a guy ever existed) would be in our current society.
at the end of the day, there's always some heros/superhumans in every setting and story (even in real life, some guy can squat up to 11 plates, while a very strong dude can only squat 5. That's almost surhuman). The difference is the power scale between these heros and the average mook. THe introduction of primarchs up the power scale, and makes the game eer more toward superheroes than it is presently. And you can bet that if they re-introduce them, they'll be central to any plot/development in the futre. You can be happy with this development, but saying that it doesn't dramatically change the setting of 40k is silly imo.
That's an extremely strange way of looking at it. The difference between a regular human and a Space Marine is already like a child vs a bodybuilder, and there are plenty of things in the game that make Marines look like mooks. Even Custodes and Grey Knights supposedly make your average Space Marine seem a joke in comparison. And if you look outside of humans, there are dozens of things that go beyond that from the Xenos, Chaotic, or mechanical side of things.
Primarchs will do nothing to the level of power that hasn't already been done to the game itself.
THe reapparition of the primarchs is as earth shattering in 40k as the reapparition of Jesus (if such a guy ever existed) would be in our current society.
Disagree completely. The Primarchs were around for a long time after the Heresy ended and the galaxy was in a pretty crappy place then. You're more thinking of the Emperor coming back.
it's been stated numerously in the fluff that the difference between a regular marine and a primarch is the same as the difference between a regular marine and a regular space marine. There's actually no human alive (or not MIA) that come close to the power of a primarch in the fluff. Denying it is strange.
No the reapparition if the emperor would be like God coming on earth (jesus is not god in multiple religions)
streetsamurai wrote: it's been stated numerously in the fluff that the difference between a regular marine and a primarch is the same as the difference between a regular marine and a regular space marine. There's actually no human alive (or not MIA) that come close to the power of a primarch in the fluff. Denying it is strange.
And there are plenty of things and characters already in the game that are at or above that power level. And the power level fluctuates basically on a book-by-book basis (Skarbrand, Avatar of Khaine, Swarmlord, etc) that the Primarchs will probably find something as strong as them in a day. Heck, look at the recent Beast Arises series, where an Ork Warboss nearly fights Vulkan (an actual Primarch) to a standstill.
It literally doesn't matter that the average human is getting more insignificant because they already were. But the game has never been about the average human.
streetsamurai wrote: it's been stated numerously in the fluff that the difference between a regular marine and a primarch is the same as the difference between a regular marine and a regular space marine. There's actually no human alive (or not MIA) that come close to the power of a primarch in the fluff. Denying it is strange.
And there are plenty of things and characters already in the game that are at or above that power level. And the power level fluctuates basically on a book-by-book basis (Skarbrand, Avatar of Khaine, Swarmlord, etc) that the Primarchs will probably find something as strong as them in a day. Heck, look at the recent Beast Arises series, where an Ork Warboss nearly fights Vulkan (an actual Primarch) to a standstill.
It literally doesn't matter that the average human is getting more insignificant because they already were. But the game has never been about the average human.
wait thats confusing
shouldn't that read the differnece between a primarch and a regular astarte is the difference between a astarte and a regular man?
Davor wrote: So have the rumour run it's course now since we are talking about how a Primarch should be game wise and we are not discussing rumours now?
Yeah this thread is basically over save for whining.
Davor wrote: So have the rumour run it's course now since we are talking about how a Primarch should be game wise and we are not discussing rumours now?
Yeah this thread is basically over save for whining.
It's been complete bull since the first page, not sure what you expected 5 pages in. Some people just don't understand what News and Rumours means.
Davor wrote: So have the rumour run it's course now since we are talking about how a Primarch should be game wise and we are not discussing rumours now?
Yeah this thread is basically over save for whining.
Nice.
I have a genuine concern 40k is going to be Primarchammer and that is whining?
fine.
I really dont want to be in a game where i can get blatted in 1 turn by my wolf, mr red, mr lion or whomever. if thats fine for you fine. good.
I hope you enjoy Primarch and friends the wargame.
Davor wrote: So have the rumour run it's course now since we are talking about how a Primarch should be game wise and we are not discussing rumours now?
Yeah this thread is basically over save for whining.
It's been complete bull since the first page, not sure what you expected 5 pages in. Some people just don't understand what News and Rumours means.
All this glamouring for plot advancement reminds me of White Wolf's World of Darkness RPGs. Some people were obsessed about the metaplot and demanded WW to advance the plot and bring the end times and have the antediluvians return and whatnot (instead of accepting that it is a setting and creating their own stories in it.) So eventually WW caved, the end times came, it sucked, everyone hated it. The setting was ruined and WW almost bankrupted. They rebooted the whole thing, but the new version never become nearly as popular as the old setting.
Davor wrote: So have the rumour run it's course now since we are talking about how a Primarch should be game wise and we are not discussing rumours now?
Yeah this thread is basically over save for whining.
Nice.
I have a genuine concern 40k is going to be Primarchammer and that is whining?
fine.
I really dont want to be in a game where i can get blatted in 1 turn by my wolf, mr red, mr lion or whomever. if thats fine for you fine. good.
I hope you enjoy Primarch and friends the wargame.
S.Y.
If you honestly can look at the current game of 40k and tell me that any foot character will break the meta of Wraithknights, Deathstars, Summoning, and MSU Battle Company, I think you don't actually play the game at any sort of level to even talk about "competitive". Even if he had 20 wounds and a 2+ invuln save, FNP, Eternal Warrior and Fleet, people wouldn't use him. Unless he had D guns of his own.
And before you say "well I don't play against Wraithknights or summoning or Deathstars so that's not my problem", then you can just maybe not play against Primarchs.
The idea that the game would be "Primarchhammer" is a complete joke and totally laughable. Even if they just straight brought over FW's 30k Primarchs and halved points, people wouldn't play them in most lists.
I have been a fan of 40/30k for nearly 10 years. having lurked on this forum forever I remember seeing many many wishful comments about bringing back the primarchs. now its happening, and everyone is just complaining. you people can never be happy.
Crimson wrote: All this glamouring for plot advancement reminds me of White Wolf's World of Darkness RPGs. Some people were obsessed about the metaplot and demanded WW to advance the plot and bring the end times and have the antediluvians return and whatnot (instead of accepting that it is a setting and creating their own stories in it.) So eventually WW caved, the end times came, it sucked, everyone hated it. The setting was ruined and WW almost bankrupted. They rebooted the whole thing, but the new version never become nearly as popular as the old setting.
Some of the WW End times stuff was fine. It just should have been what if stuff. It wasnt. V20 sold well because it put the clock back. setting advancement needs to be handled well and i cant see GW doing this.
Neronoxx wrote: Some people just don't understand what News and Rumours means.
Very true. Many posters mistakenly believe that discussion of News and Rumors on the News and Rumors section of this discussion board is somehow not allowed. Rest assured that it is not only allowed but even encouraged!
Neronoxx wrote: Some people just don't understand what News and Rumours means.
Very true. Many posters mistakenly believe that discussion of News and Rumors on the News and Rumors section of this discussion board is somehow not allowed. Rest assured that it is not only allowed but even encouraged!
Thanks!
I think the more germane reason for locking it down was that it was proved to be a hoax a few pages ago.
pretre wrote: I think the more germane reason for locking it down was that it was proved to be a hoax a few pages ago.
That would be a good reason. If the subject of a N&R thread proves to be a hoax, the way to get it locked is by pushing the mod alert on the post that proves the news and/or rumor is a hoax or otherwise link that post to a moderator. The moderators will then decide whether that proof is dispositive and, if so, lock the thread.
Davor wrote: So have the rumour run it's course now since we are talking about how a Primarch should be game wise and we are not discussing rumours now?
Yeah this thread is basically over save for whining.
Nice.
I have a genuine concern 40k is going to be Primarchammer and that is whining?
fine.
I really dont want to be in a game where i can get blatted in 1 turn by my wolf, mr red, mr lion or whomever. if thats fine for you fine. good.
I hope you enjoy Primarch and friends the wargame.
S.Y.
If you honestly can look at the current game of 40k and tell me that any foot character will break the meta of Wraithknights, Deathstars, Summoning, and MSU Battle Company, I think you don't actually play the game at any sort of level to even talk about "competitive". Even if he had 20 wounds and a 2+ invuln save, FNP, Eternal Warrior and Fleet, people wouldn't use him. Unless he had D guns of his own.
And before you say "well I don't play against Wraithknights or summoning or Deathstars so that's not my problem", then you can just maybe not play against Primarchs.
The idea that the game would be "Primarchhammer" is a complete joke and totally laughable. Even if they just straight brought over FW's 30k Primarchs and halved points, people wouldn't play them in most lists.
I play against all those things, they can be counterd. Yes I can say without a doubt that a Primarch level character will break the meta, not only fluff wise but game wise . You did know 2nd was herohammer right? that the reason 3rd was such a jump that profiles got moved about, Movement lost, We just, Just got Overwatch back. Heroes lost their bite.
To bring just one of those characters back is madness for regular play. Apoc, fine do whatever, EPIC okay good, you have different counters.
You have this 8 wound guy that basically auto hits, auto wounds anything you point him at and that is not broken? how? when a character is front and center in plot, why take anything else, Characters already don't need permission to use. even if he gets killed somehow oh wait IWnD plus some other uber rule.
I can say oh I don't play against Primarchs but thats a little mean to the other guy/gal who spent the time painting and assembling his/her stuff, and I'm not going to do that. I play against anything 30k vs 40k even if its a little one sided. I could stop playing but I have already lost 50% thanks to AoS
the fact you find it laughable is interesting. Epic is bleeding into 40k which you can counter. just. 30k i win buttons is too much.
