... get crushed by Chaos at Cadia?

First off - I love the new kit with Celestine and her Seraphim Guard ... but I wouldn't be a true Sisters fan if I didn't have ... concerns ... about something. And here's what concerns me, aside from still needing to SEE some more plastic Sisters kits: SoB have way too often been the whipping girls for the various enemies of Mankind. The Sisters make a valiant, self-sacrificial last stand against hopeless odds ... in essence, they get Worfed so that whatever flavor of SM shows up to actually save the day gets to really bask in the limelight. It's ... frustrating.

So here is my plea to GW - please please please do not make (or do not have made) Saint Celestine and the SoB the fall girls of Gathering Storm and beyond!

I really like Draenei in WoW and Sisters of Battle in WH40k.

Maybe I'm just drawn to the "evil guy's punching bag" factions for some reason.

"St Celestine at the head of a Black Templars Crusade into the Cadian Gate", he said in the video. I'm still not convinced "Sisters" will be involved beyond Celestine and her bodyguards - I want confirmation of that before I start worrying about narratives or anything.

 Manchu wrote:
... get crushed by Chaos at Cadia?
...
So here is my plea to GW - please please please do not make (or do not have made) Saint Celestine and the SoB the fall girls of Gathering Storm and beyond!

I love you guys. There is just no stopping.
You know that you basically play an army of jeanne d'arc's in a distopian sifi setting right, and that martyrdom is actually a rule in your codex ?
Ever considered what this is going to mean for the general theme of the army fluff ?

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
... get crushed by Chaos at Cadia?
...
So here is my plea to GW - please please please do not make (or do not have made) Saint Celestine and the SoB the fall girls of Gathering Storm and beyond!

I love you guys. There is just no stopping.
You know that you basically play an army of jeanne d'arc's in a distopian sifi setting right, and that martyrdom is actually a rule in your codex ?
Ever considered what this is going to mean for the general theme of the army fluff ?

I second that.
Why are my army the whipping boys!? Because that's the story they were modelled off.

lolwut the theme of SoB is get beaten so thr SM look tougher?

nooooooope

Won't all the Sisters just die when the Grey Knights come in and need to anoint their armour with Sisters blood so they can go up against the demons that will be passing through?

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
... get crushed by Chaos at Cadia?
...
So here is my plea to GW - please please please do not make (or do not have made) Saint Celestine and the SoB the fall girls of Gathering Storm and beyond!

I love you guys. There is just no stopping.
You know that you basically play an army of jeanne d'arc's in a distopian sifi setting right, and that martyrdom is actually a rule in your codex ?
Ever considered what this is going to mean for the general theme of the army fluff ?

I've, uh, read Sisters of Battle lore.

They're not really the Joan of Arc type.

They're more the intolerant, religious zealot nutjobs who burn nonbelievers at the stake and would not be able to tolerate the reality that the Emperor did not want humanity to have any religion whatsoever, if they knew that was even a thing.

Their god literally destroyed the concept of human religion and did not fancy himself a god, merely a powerful human.

I mean, there's a reason my own personal army's fanfiction has them being debrainwashed by alien technology to a degree that loyal Imperial citizens would consider them heretics, and they took refuge on a non-Imperial planet that was so utterly terrified of the Imperium they literally installed FTL engines into their planet and fled to a part of the galaxy beyond the Astronomican's light, to avoid any Imperial forces coming across them.

And that reason is that I cannot enjoy playing an army as inherently evil as Sisters of Battle are, so I had to invent my own fanfiction to be able to play my army.

You seem to have a lot of issues with 40k and your army are you sure that this is the best game for you ?

 oldzoggy wrote:
You seem to have a lot of issues with 40k and your army are you sure that this is the best game die you ?

I'm a roleplayer. I'm comfortable with fanfiction.

It's also worth noting that literally no other game in existence has an army like Sisters of Battle in their plastic model ranges. I checked. Repeatedly.

*plays a human in wow and space marines in 40k*

We'll give the bad guys a few more minutes to work them over before saving the day. After all, if we save a lot of them, it won't look as heroic to beat the great evil of the day!

But seriously, the downside to being in the first campaign book means that the next one you can get beaten down so they can sell whatever new models for the other faction. The only exception has been the Tau, who got two releases in the same campaign, thus didn't have to lose at all.

I mean, the wolves were holding back the Daemons and Chaos in book one, then the thousand sons and Magnus show up, and despite sort of reinforcements from every major chapter showing up in the Fenris system, Magnus completely wrecks house.

Maybe Celestine can break something important before being forced to cheese it. Take down a Daemon Primarch they don't want to make a model for, maybe? I mean, Celestine beating down Lorgar is something I am a-ok with, personally. What other Daemon Primarch would be more fitting for her to take on, after all?

 Crazyterran wrote:
*plays a human in wow and space marines in 40k*

We'll give the bad guys a few more minutes to work them over before saving the day. After all, if we save a lot of them, it won't look as heroic to beat the great evil of the day!

But seriously, the downside to being in the first campaign book means that the next one you can get beaten down so they can sell whatever new models for the other faction. The only exception has been the Tau, who got two releases in the same campaign, thus didn't have to lose at all.

I mean, the wolves were holding back the Daemons and Chaos in book one, then the thousand sons and Magnus show up, and despite sort of reinforcements from every major chapter showing up in the Fenris system, Magnus completely wrecks house.

Maybe Celestine can break something important before being forced to cheese it. Take down a Daemon Primarch they don't want to make a model for, maybe? I mean, Celestine beating down Lorgar is something I am a-ok with, personally. What other Daemon Primarch would be more fitting for her to take on, after all?

Erm, just want to mention something about Celestine's possible death on Cadia...

According to the lore for Celestine dating back to the Witch Hunters' Codex, she is effectively immortal, and shows up on the most dire battlefields, and has done so for literally thousands of years since her death (seriously, they tolled ALL the bells for her death). Even her rules include a special rule where she can literally ignore her death, and in 3e it used to be a permanent ability that could be used an infinite number of times (more recently they limited her to one attempt per game only).

The factual answer to any "which special character would win this fight if the combat persisted until death?" used to be Celestine in literally every instance she was capable of harming her opponent, because without the restriction on turn limits she could just keep coming back to life and fighting until she died until she got lucky enough to deal enough wounds to kill the target, which would happen eventually due to probability allowing for any possible dice roll to happen given enough attempts. The idea that a person could not guess the outcome of 100 dice rolls in a row based on pure luck goes out the window if you simply keep guessing and rolling an infinite number of times.

 Crazyterran wrote:
*plays a human in wow and space marines in 40k*

A proud Boringville citizen.

 koooaei wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
*plays a human in wow and space marines in 40k*

A proud Boringville citizen.

I wasn't going to comment, but Stormwind Humans and Space Marines are my most hated factions in their relative franchises, and for the same reason - they hog the limelight too damned much.

 Pouncey wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
*plays a human in wow and space marines in 40k*

A proud Boringville citizen.

I wasn't going to comment, but Stormwind Humans and Space Marines are my most hated factions in their relative franchises, and for the same reason - they hog the limelight too damned much.

Let's be honest now, Varian hogged all of the spotlight. The minute Varian died we have Tyrande and Genn getting attention, though I suppose if you are a Draenei fan it could be a little frustrating that the Legion expansion has such little Draenei presence. The Paladin order hall only has one Draenei! I'm pretty sure the priests only have one as well.

Probably a knee jerk reaction from Blizzard after the steaming turd that was WoD. You can tell Yrel was meant for more than WoD, but it probably got tossed after the fan base reacted negatively to everything WoD. At the very least, Yrel should be in the Paladin order hall over Boros.

As for Space Marines... my poor Ultramarines are soon to be the only loyalist Chapter without any special rules, relics, or warlord traits. Sure we got characters, but let's be honest, Only one of them are usable compared to Vulkan He'stan and the Khan. The real problem for people wanting to see more than space marines at this point is that the Horus Heresy has been selling so well - it sends a pretty clear signal to GW what the people want more of.

 koooaei wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
*plays a human in wow and space marines in 40k*

A proud Boringville citizen.

My head canon for my character is that he's from Stromgarde, is a fan of Warcraft 2s style of mounting their heads on pikes, and doesn't care much for the namby pambys in Stormwind and their constant slacking about the real issues. Like the Forsaken, and the Trolls.

Really, every other Alliance race has turned into a bootlick for Stormwind, which is just sad. I wish there was some friction between Tyrande/Anduin going on, since Anduin's peace mongering is so anti-Nelf interests. Though, Varians peace mongering got the Horde out of Ashenvale fluff wise, so...

As for Space Marines, the only way I could play a more vanilla, boring army is by playing Guardsmen. Literally the boring, vanilla masses!

 Pouncey wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
*plays a human in wow and space marines in 40k*

We'll give the bad guys a few more minutes to work them over before saving the day. After all, if we save a lot of them, it won't look as heroic to beat the great evil of the day!

But seriously, the downside to being in the first campaign book means that the next one you can get beaten down so they can sell whatever new models for the other faction. The only exception has been the Tau, who got two releases in the same campaign, thus didn't have to lose at all.

I mean, the wolves were holding back the Daemons and Chaos in book one, then the thousand sons and Magnus show up, and despite sort of reinforcements from every major chapter showing up in the Fenris system, Magnus completely wrecks house.

Maybe Celestine can break something important before being forced to cheese it. Take down a Daemon Primarch they don't want to make a model for, maybe? I mean, Celestine beating down Lorgar is something I am a-ok with, personally. What other Daemon Primarch would be more fitting for her to take on, after all?

Erm, just want to mention something about Celestine's possible death on Cadia...

According to the lore for Celestine dating back to the Witch Hunters' Codex, she is effectively immortal, and shows up on the most dire battlefields, and has done so for literally thousands of years since her death (seriously, they tolled ALL the bells for her death). Even her rules include a special rule where she can literally ignore her death, and in 3e it used to be a permanent ability that could be used an infinite number of times (more recently they limited her to one attempt per game only).

The factual answer to any "which special character would win this fight if the combat persisted until death?" used to be Celestine in literally every instance she was capable of harming her opponent, because without the restriction on turn limits she could just keep coming back to life and fighting until she died until she got lucky enough to deal enough wounds to kill the target, which would happen eventually due to probability allowing for any possible dice roll to happen given enough attempts. The idea that a person could not guess the outcome of 100 dice rolls in a row based on pure luck goes out the window if you simply keep guessing and rolling an infinite number of times.

Well, yes, but she can still die, even temporarily. There are things that Chaos has that even the Emperor feared - such as Drach'nyen, the End of Empires. A Daemon Blade powerful enough that the Emperor literally sealed it inside a Custodes and told him to run as far as he could, and buy Humanity as much time as he could by running. I guess it depends if Drach'nyen is powerful enough to devour her soul, but considering it has feasted on the blood of the Emperor, I think our good Saint has a reason to be worried.

Personally, I think if there's going to be an epic duel in the book (there always is, even when the tau are involved!) it will be Abaddon vs Celestine.

And didn't Celestine still have to roll to come back on like a 3+?

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
*plays a human in wow and space marines in 40k*

A proud Boringville citizen.

I wasn't going to comment, but Stormwind Humans and Space Marines are my most hated factions in their relative franchises, and for the same reason - they hog the limelight too damned much.

Let's be honest now, Varian hogged all of the spotlight. The minute Varian died we have Tyrande and Genn getting attention, though I suppose if you are a Draenei fan it could be a little frustrating that the Legion expansion has such little Draenei presence. The Paladin order hall only has one Draenei! I'm pretty sure the priests only have one as well.

Probably a knee jerk reaction from Blizzard after the steaming turd that was WoD. You can tell Yrel was meant for more than WoD, but it probably got tossed after the fan base reacted negatively to everything WoD. At the very least, Yrel should be in the Paladin order hall over Boros.

As for Space Marines... my poor Ultramarines are soon to be the only loyalist Chapter without any special rules, relics, or warlord traits. Sure we got characters, but let's be honest, Only one of them are usable compared to Vulkan He'stan and the Khan. The real problem for people wanting to see more than space marines at this point is that the Horus Heresy has been selling so well - it sends a pretty clear signal to GW what the people want more of.

Anduin is High King now. They made a borderline pacifist the supreme commander of all Alliance military forces purely because he is the King of Stormwind.

Honestly, as a Draenei fan, given what happened in Warlords, Legion, and the Warcraft movie, I wish we'd actually stayed neglected, because we've been in the spotlight a LOT over the past couple of years, and it has sucked to watch my favorite race die by the hundreds every time we come across them.

The opening scene of the Warcraft movie, showing the Dark Portal from Draenor's end, simultaneously writes the entire Draenei Genocide fiction out of existence by having no Path of Glory and hundreds of surviving Draenei prisoners (they literally killed every Draenei the moment they found them in the game lore, the concept of taking Draenei prisoners was never entertained, as they were literally just trying to exterminate the entire species and the planet was still habitable), while also killing WAY more Draenei on-screen than died to open the Dark Portal in the game canon (only one Draenei was murdered to open the Dark Portal in the game lore, and in the game the Dark Portal is permanently active, it does NOT need "fuel") and also having the one character in the game who tried to stop the murder of Draenei (Durotan) not even view it as being immoral.

Warlords of Draenor had dead and dying Draenei literally everywhere we went, the Draenei army in Hellfire Citadel cheered for the Orc Warlord who'd been waging a war to kill them all, and the change of capitol city from Karabor to Ashran was infuriating.

In addition, the Alliance is no longer definable as an Alliance of equals, it is now a Humans-first club and every other race are second-class citizens.

Also, Space Marines have half a dozen Codices dedicated to individual chapters with full model ranges. Name any other faction that has an equivalent to THAT. Sisters of Battle don't have Codices devoted to Major Orders. IG don't have Codices devoted to individual Regiments. Eldar don't have Codices devoted to individual Craftworlds. And on and on. And no, supplements do not count, as the Space Marine Codices are not in any way merely "supplements."

I also play a lot of video games, and the number of 40k-themed video games I've seen come out that are all about Space Marines is so high that I don't even care what genre a video game is anymore, the moment I hear it's about Space Marines I just shut off the ad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Well, yes, but she can still die, even temporarily. There are things that Chaos has that even the Emperor feared - such as Drach'nyen, the End of Empires. A Daemon Blade powerful enough that the Emperor literally sealed it inside a Custodes and told him to run as far as he could, and buy Humanity as much time as he could by running. I guess it depends if Drach'nyen is powerful enough to devour her soul, but considering it has feasted on the blood of the Emperor, I think our good Saint has a reason to be worried.

So then she could just, like, not be on the part of Cadia with the guy wielding that weapon? The odds that they'd even meet on the battlefield during the fall of Cadia, because an invasion from orbit results in a planet-wide war. Planets are kinda big.

Personally, I think if there's going to be an epic duel in the book (there always is, even when the tau are involved!) it will be Abaddon vs Celestine.

And didn't Celestine still have to roll to come back on like a 3+?

Yes she did, but previously she could just roll again the next turn if she failed in any particular attempt.

 Pouncey wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
You seem to have a lot of issues with 40k and your army are you sure that this is the best game die you ?

I'm a roleplayer. I'm comfortable with fanfiction.

That is fine many of us 40k players are also RPG player's s but what do you like about the game that is 40k?

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
You seem to have a lot of issues with 40k and your army are you sure that this is the best game die you ?

I'm a roleplayer. I'm comfortable with fanfiction.

That is fine many of us 40k players are also RPG player's s but what do you like about the game that is 40k?

It is the only game in existence with anything like Sisters of Battle. That's literally the only reason I didn't play something else and drop 40k entirely - there's nothing like Sisters of Battle anywhere else in tabletop gaming. Or in video games for that matter.

 Pouncey wrote:
I really like Draenei in WoW and Sisters of Battle in WH40k.

Maybe I'm just drawn to the "evil guy's punching bag" factions for some reason.

You paid attention to the "plot" and story of Wow after mid TBC? You have guts.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
I really like Draenei in WoW and Sisters of Battle in WH40k.

Maybe I'm just drawn to the "evil guy's punching bag" factions for some reason.

You paid attention to the "plot" and story of Wow after mid TBC? You have guts.

I started playing Warcraft games in 2007. You may recognize that as the year that TBC came out.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
*plays a human in wow and space marines in 40k*

A proud Boringville citizen.

I wasn't going to comment, but Stormwind Humans and Space Marines are my most hated factions in their relative franchises, and for the same reason - they hog the limelight too damned much.

Let's be honest now, Varian hogged all of the spotlight. The minute Varian died we have Tyrande and Genn getting attention, though I suppose if you are a Draenei fan it could be a little frustrating that the Legion expansion has such little Draenei presence. The Paladin order hall only has one Draenei! I'm pretty sure the priests only have one as well.

Probably a knee jerk reaction from Blizzard after the steaming turd that was WoD. You can tell Yrel was meant for more than WoD, but it probably got tossed after the fan base reacted negatively to everything WoD. At the very least, Yrel should be in the Paladin order hall over Boros.

As for Space Marines... my poor Ultramarines are soon to be the only loyalist Chapter without any special rules, relics, or warlord traits. Sure we got characters, but let's be honest, Only one of them are usable compared to Vulkan He'stan and the Khan. The real problem for people wanting to see more than space marines at this point is that the Horus Heresy has been selling so well - it sends a pretty clear signal to GW what the people want more of.

Anduin is High King now. They made a borderline pacifist the supreme commander of all Alliance military forces purely because he is the King of Stormwind.

Honestly, as a Draenei fan, given what happened in Warlords, Legion, and the Warcraft movie, I wish we'd actually stayed neglected, because we've been in the spotlight a LOT over the past couple of years, and it has sucked to watch my favorite race die by the hundreds every time we come across them.

The opening scene of the Warcraft movie, showing the Dark Portal from Draenor's end, simultaneously writes the entire Draenei Genocide fiction out of existence by having no Path of Glory and hundreds of surviving Draenei prisoners (they literally killed every Draenei the moment they found them in the game lore, the concept of taking Draenei prisoners was never entertained, as they were literally just trying to exterminate the entire species and the planet was still habitable), while also killing WAY more Draenei on-screen than died to open the Dark Portal in the game canon (only one Draenei was murdered to open the Dark Portal in the game lore, and in the game the Dark Portal is permanently active, it does NOT need "fuel") and also having the one character in the game who tried to stop the murder of Draenei (Durotan) not even view it as being immoral.

Warlords of Draenor had dead and dying Draenei literally everywhere we went, the Draenei army in Siege of Orgrimmar cheered for the Orc Warlord who'd been waging a war to kill them all, and the change of capitol city from Karabor to Ashran was infuriating.

In addition, the Alliance is no longer definable as an Alliance of equals, it is now a Humans-first club and every other race are second-class citizens.

Also, Space Marines have half a dozen Codices dedicated to individual chapters with full model ranges. Name any other faction that has an equivalent to THAT. Sisters of Battle don't have Codices devoted to Major Orders. IG don't have Codices devoted to individual Regiments. Eldar don't have Codices devoted to individual Craftworlds. And on and on. And no, supplements do not count, as the Space Marine Codices are not in any way merely "supplements."

I also play a lot of video games, and the number of 40k-themed video games I've seen come out that are all about Space Marines is so high that I don't even care what genre a video game is anymore, the moment I hear it's about Space Marines I just shut off the ad.

Anduin being High King means nothing, as he has done nothing since the pre launch of Legion. Even his orders to Genn and Roberts went ignored, and the Skyfire blew the hell out of the Forsaken fleet before dying in return. Genn literally robbed godhood from Sylvanas in Stormheim, and by god was it a glorious moment - Anduin literally had nothing to do with it in the only zone where the Alliance and Horde take up screen time.

The only reason any of the Alliance leaders will defer to Stormwind now is because Stormwind is by far the largest nation in population - it provides the most troops, it provides the ships. None of this is really represented well in game, but some of the books go over it in minor detail.

Yes, they did the Draenei's genocide no justice at all, but the Warcraft movie is non-canon to WoW. It was merely glossed over in the movie (disgustingly) undoubtedly due to time constraints and the fact it was supposed to be a retelling of Warcraft Orcs and Humans. I have so many complaints about that movie in general, though - I was ready to walk out if the box had a naaru in it.

As for Space Marines, I think Dark Angels and Blood Angels could be merged into the codex Black Templar style, making Death Company and Deathwing Knights the unique units and roll everything else in as upgrades and chapter tactics. Honor guard with jump packs or command squads with tl plasma guns isn't much of a stretch and would cut down on the book bloat.

Of course, having four different marine releases every year makes them more money than releasing anything else, so...

As for video games, of course you are going to take your most iconic part of the setting to make games out of it. like it or not, Marines are the bread and butter of their setting, and a video game developer will want to make as big a return on investment as possible - and Space Marines are their most popular faction.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Well, yes, but she can still die, even temporarily. There are things that Chaos has that even the Emperor feared - such as Drach'nyen, the End of Empires. A Daemon Blade powerful enough that the Emperor literally sealed it inside a Custodes and told him to run as far as he could, and buy Humanity as much time as he could by running. I guess it depends if Drach'nyen is powerful enough to devour her soul, but considering it has feasted on the blood of the Emperor, I think our good Saint has a reason to be worried.

So then she could just, like, not be on the part of Cadia with the guy wielding that weapon? The odds that they'd even meet on the battlefield during the fall of Cadia, because an invasion from orbit results in a planet-wide war. Planets are kinda big.

Personally, I think if there's going to be an epic duel in the book (there always is, even when the tau are involved!) it will be Abaddon vs Celestine.

And didn't Celestine still have to roll to come back on like a 3+?

Yes she did, but previously she could just roll again the next turn if she failed in any particular attempt.

(Going backwards up)

I vaguely remember that now, but I rarely saw Sisters in my times in third edition. Typically it was Guard, Nids, Marines and Eldar.

Celestine and Abaddon will fight because rule of cool demands it. Besides, Abaddon will want to demoralize his foe, and killing Celestine for a while would do that. Well, it would demoralize the guardsmen, the Sisters would probably just fight harder in the memory of the martyred saint.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Anduin being High King means nothing, as he has done nothing since the pre launch of Legion. Even his orders to Genn and Roberts went ignored, and the Skyfire blew the hell out of the Forsaken fleet before dying in return. Genn literally robbed godhood from Sylvanas in Stormheim, and by god was it a glorious moment - Anduin literally had nothing to do with it in the only zone where the Alliance and Horde take up screen time.

That's like not caring that Vol'jin was the Horde Warchief because he literally only did two things between being promoted and dying.

The only reason any of the Alliance leaders will defer to Stormwind now is because Stormwind is by far the largest nation in population - it provides the most troops, it provides the ships. None of this is really represented well in game, but some of the books go over it in minor detail.

Hey, remember Warcraft 1 and 2, when Stormwind's entire territory was completely overrun by an Orc army bent on genocide?

Yeah, that was less than 40 years ago. You don't get to be any sort of relevant military power after that kind of defeat.

Blizzard just ignores the lore and says that Stormwind's the most powerful. No losses or gains can ever sway that, they write that they are and expect it to be so. As a spectator, I call bs while knowing my opinion will not change it. I simply call bs on things that shouldn't happen but do in fiction.

Yes, they did the Draenei's genocide no justice at all, but the Warcraft movie is non-canon to WoW. It was merely glossed over in the movie (disgustingly) undoubtedly due to time constraints and the fact it was supposed to be a retelling of Warcraft Orcs and Humans. I have so many complaints about that movie in general, though - I was ready to walk out if the box had a naaru in it.

The Warcraft movie is considered 100% canon by Blizzard, actually. It even takes place in the same universe as the game, just in an alternate timeline.

Like AU Draenor.

The Warcraft movie is exactly as canonical as the events of Warlords of Draenor.

Oh, remember when no one had seen anything but the trailer, and we were like, "The feth? Does this movie have time travel? Dalaran's flying!"

As for Space Marines, I think Dark Angels and Blood Angels could be merged into the codex Black Templar style, making Death Company and Deathwing Knights the unique units and roll everything else in as upgrades and chapter tactics. Honor guard with jump packs or command squads with tl plasma guns isn't much of a stretch and would cut down on the book bloat.

I'd be pleased as punch to have one Space Marine book with a crapload of different loadout options for units, then the various models are just cosmetic differences. Like it should be.

Of course, having four different marine releases every year makes them more money than releasing anything else, so...

No gak. That's the PROBLEM.

As for video games, of course you are going to take your most iconic part of the setting to make games out of it. like it or not, Marines are the bread and butter of their setting, and a video game developer will want to make as big a return on investment as possible - and Space Marines are their most popular faction.

Meanwhile my army, which is elite enough they go to war with Space Marine Chapters and fight them to a stalemate, has Dawn of War: Soulstorm, and that's it, that's all.

Celestine and Abaddon will fight because rule of cool demands it. Besides, Abaddon will want to demoralize his foe, and killing Celestine for a while would do that. Well, it would demoralize the guardsmen, the Sisters would probably just fight harder in the memory of the martyred saint.

"Rule of Cool" technically demands NOTHING.

The "Rule of Cool" is simply that the audience will accept more bullgak in the story if it is cool enough. It is not a mandate to provide those bullgak moments.

Were just in time for me to finally, after years in a drawer, trade off my sisters as it's just too late and not enough for me to want to dump the money I had aside for them onto them anymore. Got daemons to do that with instead now.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Anduin being High King means nothing, as he has done nothing since the pre launch of Legion. Even his orders to Genn and Roberts went ignored, and the Skyfire blew the hell out of the Forsaken fleet before dying in return. Genn literally robbed godhood from Sylvanas in Stormheim, and by god was it a glorious moment - Anduin literally had nothing to do with it in the only zone where the Alliance and Horde take up screen time.

That's like not caring that Vol'jin was the Horde Warchief because he literally only did two things between being promoted and dying.

The only reason any of the Alliance leaders will defer to Stormwind now is because Stormwind is by far the largest nation in population - it provides the most troops, it provides the ships. None of this is really represented well in game, but some of the books go over it in minor detail.

Hey, remember Warcraft 1 and 2, when Stormwind's entire territory was completely overrun by an Orc army bent on genocide?

Yeah, that was less than 40 years ago. You don't get to be any sort of relevant military power after that kind of defeat.

Blizzard just ignores the lore and says that Stormwind's the most powerful. No losses or gains can ever sway that, they write that they are and expect it to be so. As a spectator, I call bs while knowing my opinion will not change it. I simply call bs on things that shouldn't happen but do in fiction.

Yes, they did the Draenei's genocide no justice at all, but the Warcraft movie is non-canon to WoW. It was merely glossed over in the movie (disgustingly) undoubtedly due to time constraints and the fact it was supposed to be a retelling of Warcraft Orcs and Humans. I have so many complaints about that movie in general, though - I was ready to walk out if the box had a naaru in it.

The Warcraft movie is considered 100% canon by Blizzard, actually. It even takes place in the same universe as the game, just in an alternate timeline.

Like AU Draenor.

The Warcraft movie is exactly as canonical as the events of Warlords of Draenor.

Oh, remember when no one had seen anything but the trailer, and we were like, "The feth? Does this movie have time travel? Dalaran's flying!"

As for Space Marines, I think Dark Angels and Blood Angels could be merged into the codex Black Templar style, making Death Company and Deathwing Knights the unique units and roll everything else in as upgrades and chapter tactics. Honor guard with jump packs or command squads with tl plasma guns isn't much of a stretch and would cut down on the book bloat.

I'd be pleased as punch to have one Space Marine book with a crapload of different loadout options for units, then the various models are just cosmetic differences. Like it should be.

Of course, having four different marine releases every year makes them more money than releasing anything else, so...

No gak. That's the PROBLEM.

As for video games, of course you are going to take your most iconic part of the setting to make games out of it. like it or not, Marines are the bread and butter of their setting, and a video game developer will want to make as big a return on investment as possible - and Space Marines are their most popular faction.

Meanwhile my army, which is elite enough they go to war with Space Marine Chapters and fight them to a stalemate, has Dawn of War: Soulstorm, and that's it, that's all.

Celestine and Abaddon will fight because rule of cool demands it. Besides, Abaddon will want to demoralize his foe, and killing Celestine for a while would do that. Well, it would demoralize the guardsmen, the Sisters would probably just fight harder in the memory of the martyred saint.

"Rule of Cool" technically demands NOTHING.

The "Rule of Cool" is simply that the audience will accept more bullgak in the story if it is cool enough. It is not a mandate to provide those bullgak moments.

Voljin was the speed bump on the road to Kosaks waifu becoming Warchief. Varian at least got to go out like a boss.

Stormwind has all of the refugees from the northern nations (being the only place to go) which accounts for its numbers. It also sat the Third War out relatively unscathed.

Ironforge got reamed during the second war with only the capital city standing, and Dun Morogh was liberated by the Alliance armies passing through. The gnomes still haven't retaken Gnomergan. The Night Elves have been fighting a constant war for over a decade in universe, and we're never extremely populous to begin with. The Draenei are the refugees of a tiny percentage of the original Eredar population, after most of them were murdered. The Gilneans are the same, to a lesser degree.

The Horde has an even smaller population that isn't really relative to Stormwind's power within the Alliance. The fact that either faction can continue fighting as they have is absolutely bonkers, but out of all of the above, there is in universe reasons why Stormwind, and the Alliance, is on top. Everyone got gakked on in the past 40 years of Warcraft.

If the Warcraft movie is considered canon by Blizzard, but in an alternate universe, that is still effectively the same as it having no canonical implications on the universe that WoW takes place in. Other than another place they could pull a Guldan from, of course, which seems to have been the entire reason they made WoD.

And if the problem with them making more space marines because it makes them more money, you need to convince everyone to stop buying Space Marines so they don't feel the need to make four different types of space marines to pad their bottom line. The fault isn't with GW, it's with people (like myself, I suppose) eating up Space Marine releases. Or with more people not buying into non-Marine releases.

I mean, I own four BAC boxes and a prospero box, buy Ultramarines bits from FW to make my UM stand out from the peasantry, bought enough ASM and Devs to make a Skyhammer loaded with Grav, and more. I'm not even the craziest one I know when it comes to that, either.

Do you really think that Abaddon and Celestine won't face off? I'm actually curious, because she seems like the kind of person that Abaddon would target. And Celestine seems to be the kind of heroic figure that would go straight to where the fighting is thickest, so likely where Abaddon is.

(For the record, I own UM, GKs, IKs, Harliequins, and Daemons for 40k, and Empire for fantasy.)

Edit: forgot my small deathwing, Tau, and my 30 custodes... I might need to see Plastic anonymous.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Voljin was the speed bump on the road to Kosaks waifu becoming Warchief. Varian at least got to go out like a boss.

Stormwind has all of the refugees from the northern nations (being the only place to go) which accounts for its numbers. It also sat the Third War out relatively unscathed.

Lordaeron was wiped out and are now the Forsaken. Dalaran is neutral and has no interest in joining the Alliance. Gilneas walled itself off until Cata and are now represented by the Worgen. Stromgarde left the Alliance of Lordaeron and never joined the new Alliance faction. Kul Tiras has been mostly MIA. Alterac betrayed the Alliance and now form the Syndicate faction.

So, what refugees? Most of the northern nations never wanted any part of the modern Alliance, and the survivors of Lordaeron who fled with Jaina ended up either dying in the mana bomb or being tortured to death in the streets of Orgrimmar after the Horde navy captured the civilian refugee ships.

Ironforge got reamed during the second war with only the capital city standing, and Dun Morogh was liberated by the Alliance armies passing through. The gnomes still haven't retaken Gnomergan. The Night Elves have been fighting a constant war for over a decade in universe, and we're never extremely populous to begin with. The Draenei are the refugees of a tiny percentage of the original Eredar population, after most of them were murdered. The Gilneans are the same, to a lesser degree.

Stormwind City burned to the ground in the First War. The Gnomes retook Gnomeregan during Cataclysm, it remains a dungeon for gameplay purposes only. The Night Elves have many forces that have never been represented adequately in their lore after Warcraft 3, and their civilization spanned the entirety of Kalimdor, which you can't do without a huge population, so no, they don't have low numbers. The Draenei were attacked by Stormwind forces during Cataclysm because humans are too dumb to tell a Draenei from a demon while the Draenei provide care and aid to Stormwind refugees. The Gilneans are some of those "Refugees" you just attributed to Stormwind's strength, because they surrendered their entire country to Sylvanas to save Lorna Crowley's life.

The Horde has an even smaller population that isn't really relative to Stormwind's power within the Alliance. The fact that either faction can continue fighting as they have is absolutely bonkers, but out of all of the above, there is in universe reasons why Stormwind, and the Alliance, is on top. Everyone got gakked on in the past 40 years of Warcraft.

The Horde lost so much of their military during MoP that canonically, the only reason they still exist as a faction is because the Alliance is willing to tolerate their existence as sovereign nations.

And if everyone got crapped on THAT badly, the Legion should never have had an issue conquering Azeroth.

If the Warcraft movie is considered canon by Blizzard, but in an alternate universe, that is still effectively the same as it having no canonical implications on the universe that WoW takes place in. Other than another place they could pull a Guldan from, of course, which seems to have been the entire reason they made WoD.

No, not an alternate universe. An alternate timeline. There's a difference, please look it up.

And if the problem with them making more space marines because it makes them more money, you need to convince everyone to stop buying Space Marines so they don't feel the need to make four different types of space marines to pad their bottom line. The fault isn't with GW, it's with people (like myself, I suppose) eating up Space Marine releases. Or with more people not buying into non-Marine releases.

Yeah, I once suggested someone play Sisters of Battle because the army needs the support. I was told to shut up and get out. Meanwhile the player suggesting Deathwatch wasn't argued with at all. Want a link? It happened on Dakka a day or two ago.

I mean, I own four BAC boxes and a prospero box, buy Ultramarines bits from FW to make my UM stand out from the peasantry, bought enough ASM and Devs to make a Skyhammer loaded with Grav, and more. I'm not even the craziest one I know when it comes to that, either.

Do you really think that Abaddon and Celestine won't face off? I'm actually curious, because she seems like the kind of person that Abaddon would target. And Celestine seems to be the kind of heroic figure that would go straight to where the fighting is thickest, so likely where Abaddon is.

Honestly, I think they'll face off. It'll just be stupid and make no sense when it happens, because there's no reason for Celestine to test her immortality against a weapon that killed the fething EMPEROR.

"Oh look, that's Abaddon, he's got the weapon that killed the Emperor. I'm gonna just go over there, where he's not, because I can literally fly and he cannot. Then I'm gonna kill his buddies who only have boltguns and chainswords."

You... do realize that not all of Lordaeron fell? There are even in game NPCs that reference running from Lordaeron to Stormwind. Ol' Emma is a prominent example for anyone who loiters in Stormwind. Sky Admiral Rogers is a Hillsbrad (thus, Lordaeron) native.

Stromgarde is in the Alliance, with the faction that represents it being the League of Arathor, and its surviving heir (Danath) currently MIA on the broken shore (warrior chain).

The Night Elves make up for their low numbers with the fact that nature literally rises to help them. I'm pretty sure their new found mortality and lack of children is referenced in one of the recent books (Wolfheart, I believe?).

The Gnomes didn't retake Gnomergan beyond the front door, essentially. Thermaplugg detonated another radiation bomb during the Operation: Gnomergan quests.

The Legion is only failing because plot. Or Khadgar, or something. They seem to be more interested in trying to use subterfuge, when, the backstory had built them up as capable of steamrolling Azeroth.

So, as for alternate timeline vs alternate universe... it still has no bearing on WoW proper, so who cares? Lothar is a shrimp when he's supposed to be a mountain, Dalaran flies and Stormwind didn't fall. Being an alternate timeline means it has a lower chance of affecting main WoW! Unless they pull some Caverns of Time malarkey.

And yeah, I saw the thread about the battle forces. Now is a good time to get at least some of the basics for Sisters (well, HQs and Celestine at least).

 Crazyterran wrote:
You... do realize that not all of Lordaeron fell? There are even in game NPCs that reference running from Lordaeron to Stormwind. Ol' Emma is a prominent example for anyone who loiters in Stormwind. Sky Admiral Rogers is a Hillsbrad (thus, Lordaeron) native.

Stromgarde is in the Alliance, with the faction that represents it being the League of Arathor, and its surviving heir (Danath) currently MIA on the broken shore (warrior chain).

Literally the problem is that Blizzard constantly ignores the massive losses humans have taken and continue to take. Their narrative is that Stormwind is the strongest military in the Alliance, and no matter how many of them die, they have continued to stick to that.

The Night Elves make up for their low numbers with the fact that nature literally rises to help them. I'm pretty sure their new found mortality and lack of children is referenced in one of the recent books (Wolfheart, I believe?).

Night Elves don't have low numbers to begin with. Their territory is massive, bigger than Stormwind's. They, in all likelihood, outnumber humans even without their allies.

And regarding Wolfheart, in that book, Ashenvale was retaken by the Night Elves without any help from Stormwind. Meanwhile, years later (so no, not a recent book) in the aftermath of the Siege of Orgrimmar, Varian signs away Azshara, a sacred Night Elf forest, to the Horde, in exchange for the Horde fething withdrawing troops from Ashenvale. They didn't need to do that, the Night Elves already pushed them out of it. And further, withdrawing troops from the victor's territory is a standard part of what the side that lost a war did, so there's no sense in making a concession to have the Horde do it anyways.

The Gnomes didn't retake Gnomergan beyond the front door, essentially. Thermaplugg detonated another radiation bomb during the Operation: Gnomergan quests.

You ever done the Gnomeregan dungeon? Thermaplugg's dead, so are all his cronies and troggs.

The Legion is only failing because plot. Or Khadgar, or something. They seem to be more interested in trying to use subterfuge, when, the backstory had built them up as capable of steamrolling Azeroth.

Likewise, Stormwind is only powerful because plot.

Also, the Legion are idiots. They have summoners capable of summoning other, equal summoners by themselves, and don't realize that with exponents they can have a million-strong force wherever they want within a few minutes. Feth summoning big stuff, just summon unstoppable swarms of weak demons and overwhelm with numbers, since if they die they just go back to the Twisting Nether and can be summoned again almost immediately.

So, as for alternate timeline vs alternate universe... it still has no bearing on WoW proper, so who cares? Lothar is a shrimp when he's supposed to be a mountain, Dalaran flies and Stormwind didn't fall. Being an alternate timeline means it has a lower chance of affecting main WoW! Unless they pull some Caverns of Time malarkey.

Warcraft lore doesn't even have alternate universes whatsoever.

Also, please look into the lore of Warlords of Draenor if you want to see two separate timelines interacting.

And yeah, I saw the thread about the battle forces. Now is a good time to get at least some of the basics for Sisters (well, HQs and Celestine at least).

After 13 years, I wish GW would stop being coy and just be up front with us. Say, "These are the kits coming out for Sisters of Battle over the next year, the months each kit comes out in, how much they cost," and literally every detail possible about the kits themselves. This is not a time for "wait and see" because for us that's been a road to disappointment for literally over a decade.

Orgrimmar is/was the leading force of the Horde, despite the amount of Orcs being in it being whatever they stuffed into a few boats.

I have done the Gnomergan dungeon probably hundreds of times over the last twelve or thirteen years. It doesn't change the fact that there has been no retaking of Gnomergan, considering the Rad Bomb during Operation Gnomergan.

The Gnome starting area now is evacuating leper gnomes (including the PC) from the blast area and curing their leprosy.

Having large territory doesn't mean much in terms of population in WoW - the Orcs control Northern Barrens, Durotar, Southern Barrens post Tides of War, as well as outposts throughout the world. Yet, population that can make it across the great sea in a few boats.

It'd be nice if GW gave us more heads up, but this Cadia thing is only like a week in advance if you take off the week between Xmas and New Years.

guyz, pls, no more wow

 Crazyterran wrote:
Orgrimmar is/was the leading force of the Horde, despite the amount of Orcs being in it being whatever they stuffed into a few boats.

Not anymore. Most of the Orc military died during MoP. The Orcs are now one of the weakest factions on the Horde, because most of them stood with Garrosh and died for him.

Consequently, while Vol'jin was Warchief, Trolls were the face of the Horde. Now Sylvanas is Warchief and the Forsaken are the face of the Horde.

I have done the Gnomergan dungeon probably hundreds of times over the last twelve or thirteen years. It doesn't change the fact that there has been no retaking of Gnomergan, considering the Rad Bomb during Operation Gnomergan.

If we can't even push into Gnomeregan because it's too radioactive, how exactly does the dungeon exist?

The Gnome starting area now is evacuating leper gnomes (including the PC) from the blast area and curing their leprosy.

Yeah, I played it.

Having large territory doesn't mean much in terms of population in WoW - the Orcs control Northern Barrens, Durotar, Southern Barrens post Tides of War, as well as outposts throughout the world. Yet, population that can make it across the great sea in a few boats.

In order to hold a large territory, you need a lot of troops to actually, you know, HOLD it. With, like, soldiers and stuff. So people don't just ignore the "Keep out" signs and do what they want since no one's around to stop them.

It'd be nice if GW gave us more heads up, but this Cadia thing is only like a week in advance if you take off the week between Xmas and New Years.

I'm suggesting that Sisters of Battle in particular be given an exception due to the circumstances of the last two decades of general neglect and mistreatment.

The Darkspear, who were a small jungle island tribe that nearly got murdered by Murlocs, killed by Kultiras, betrayed by a witch doctor, then started being executed in the streets by Garrosh, somehow managed to be the face of the Horde. But not really, because the Garrison was all Orc architecture, and the default guards are orcs.

Forsaken make sense, at least, as their numbers should be bolstered by the Gilnean campaign (they still don't hold it though) and Southshore.

I'm pretty sure Mekkatorque kills Thermaplugg during the Cut Short short story, so the reason the dungeon exists is as you said earlier - game play.

I'm pretty sure the way the Night Elves held Ashenvale for so long was the fact they had killed all of their enemies previously, and they patrolled the border with small groups, and if anyone tripped the wire, they came in force. Like in the Warcraft 3 Orc campaign, where the small patrol found Grom, failed to take him out, and over the ridge came Cenarius to lay down the smack down.

They should give us advance notice anyways, so people can budget, but then how would they hype? Or that's their line of logic, at least.

How ironic, it took World of Warcraft to derail a Sisters thread when it's Sisters that usually derail an thread.

Davor wrote:
How ironic, it took World of Warcraft to derail a Sisters thread when it's Sisters that usually derail an thread.

So, what class do you play?

Team HumanPaladin.

 Crazyterran wrote:
The Darkspear, who were a small jungle island tribe that nearly got murdered by Murlocs, killed by Kultiras, betrayed by a witch doctor, then started being executed in the streets by Garrosh, somehow managed to be the face of the Horde. But not really, because the Garrison was all Orc architecture, and the default guards are orcs.

Forsaken make sense, at least, as their numbers should be bolstered by the Gilnean campaign (they still don't hold it though) and Southshore.

I'm pretty sure Mekkatorque kills Thermaplugg during the Cut Short short story, so the reason the dungeon exists is as you said earlier - game play.

I'm pretty sure the way the Night Elves held Ashenvale for so long was the fact they had killed all of their enemies previously, and they patrolled the border with small groups, and if anyone tripped the wire, they came in force. Like in the Warcraft 3 Orc campaign, where the small patrol found Grom, failed to take him out, and over the ridge came Cenarius to lay down the smack down.

Erm, Kalimdor is a continent. And Warcraft tech is very bad.

Imagine patrolling territory that covers most of North America when you have no surveillance tech better than your troops' eyes and ears.

Are you envisioning millions of Night Elf soldiers? I sure hope so.

They should give us advance notice anyways, so people can budget, but then how would they hype? Or that's their line of logic, at least.

In this case the hype would come from actual confirmation of plastic Sisters of Battle being imminent.

I doubt most of the sister players that had waited for plastics are still even around; it's at the point Dark Eldar were at. They could do, and have recently actually with Magnus, done hype better and with a relaunch like sisters would need they could easily make quite a bit from it.

But GW mishandling sisters would be nothing new.

 n0t_u wrote:
I doubt most of the sister players that had waited for plastics are still even around; it's at the point Dark Eldar were at. They could do, and have recently actually with Magnus, done hype better and with a relaunch like sisters would need they could easily make quite a bit from it.

But GW mishandling sisters would be nothing new.

Uhh, I'm still around. And I intend on buying the plastics if/when they come out.

 Pouncey wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
I doubt most of the sister players that had waited for plastics are still even around; it's at the point Dark Eldar were at. They could do, and have recently actually with Magnus, done hype better and with a relaunch like sisters would need they could easily make quite a bit from it.

But GW mishandling sisters would be nothing new.

Uhh, I'm still around. And I intend on buying the plastics if/when they come out.

I was still around too, but I decided to trade them off with this announcement after waiting so long. Too little too late for me.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
The Darkspear, who were a small jungle island tribe that nearly got murdered by Murlocs, killed by Kultiras, betrayed by a witch doctor, then started being executed in the streets by Garrosh, somehow managed to be the face of the Horde. But not really, because the Garrison was all Orc architecture, and the default guards are orcs.

Forsaken make sense, at least, as their numbers should be bolstered by the Gilnean campaign (they still don't hold it though) and Southshore.

I'm pretty sure Mekkatorque kills Thermaplugg during the Cut Short short story, so the reason the dungeon exists is as you said earlier - game play.

I'm pretty sure the way the Night Elves held Ashenvale for so long was the fact they had killed all of their enemies previously, and they patrolled the border with small groups, and if anyone tripped the wire, they came in force. Like in the Warcraft 3 Orc campaign, where the small patrol found Grom, failed to take him out, and over the ridge came Cenarius to lay down the smack down.

Erm, Kalimdor is a continent. And Warcraft tech is very bad.

Imagine patrolling territory that covers most of North America when you have no surveillance tech better than your troops' eyes and ears.

Are you envisioning millions of Night Elf soldiers? I sure hope so.

They should give us advance notice anyways, so people can budget, but then how would they hype? Or that's their line of logic, at least.

In this case the hype would come from actual confirmation of plastic Sisters of Battle being imminent.

Uh, post sundering the Night Elves only really controlled Ashenvale and Azshara up (Azshara being practically abandoned), their fortresses in Silithus and Feralas, and the peak of Stonetalon. The rest of Kalimdor was Centaur, Trolls, Tauren, Quillboar, harpies, etc. All battling it out.

Still a good chunk of land, but not as much as you are making it seem.

 Manchu wrote:
lolwut the theme of SoB is get beaten so thr SM look tougher?

nooooooope

It's unfortunate, but I think there is some truth to that. The Ecclesiarchy are even less sympathetic and relatable than the Space Marines and Inquisition, and tend to wind up occupying the 'enemy within' narrative space in stories about the Imperium. (Oddly, the Mechanicus are often treated the same, but don't seem to generate the same level of player bitterness.)

I can understand your frustration, but we probably shouldn't be surprised if the story plays out as 'Ecclesiarchy fail owing to their fanatical dogmatism, after they have died tragically but futilely, the comparatively more reasonable Astartes and Inquisition clean up the mess.'. It's happened in dozens of stories before, and it does so because it's one of the more logical endpoints of stories constructed from 40k's themes.

Pouncey, CrazyTerran, this is a 40K forum, not a WoW forum. If you want to discuss WoW at length, please take it to a WoW forum or to PM. I'm as disinterested in WoW as a nerd can possibly be.

I can't tell if I'm excited or aggravated by this. On the one hand, plastc Sisters is cool, the models look good, and the SoB fans will finally shut up because they're not being squatted. On the other hand, there will probably still be something in the release for people to complain about.

I wonder what differences we will see form the IA dex and the possible SoB dex, besides more troop choices possibly.

BTW, in the artwork showing Celestine, are those new Seraphim behind her? I can't quite make them out but they look to have the same organ jet pack as Celestines bodyguards?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vash108 wrote:
I wonder what differences we will see form the IA dex and the possible SoB dex, besides more troop choices possibly.

Troops are fine. Its the fact that the army lacks more specialized unit types that aren't just variations of normal battle sisters. They also need more tanks and heavy armor. Plus a flyer since most armies have been given a flyer.

 Pouncey wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
*plays a human in wow and space marines in 40k*

A proud Boringville citizen.

I wasn't going to comment, but Stormwind Humans and Space Marines are my most hated factions in their relative franchises, and for the same reason - they hog the limelight too damned much.

What? ewww no kirin tor are by far the worst human organization objectivly, but this is 40k not wow lol

 jreilly89 wrote:
I can't tell if I'm excited or aggravated by this. On the one hand, plastc Sisters is cool, the models look good, and the SoB fans will finally shut up because they're not being squatted. On the other hand, there will probably still be something in the release for people to complain about.

Yes, people tend to stop complaining when you finally give them what they've been wanting for a decade. Funny how that works, isn't it?

And of course there will still be complaints. Has any army's fans ever been completely happy with their latest version of stuff?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Troops are fine. Its the fact that the army lacks more specialized unit types that aren't just variations of normal battle sisters.

You mean like Repentia and Battle Conclaves and Priests and Penitent Engines?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Fishface wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
lolwut the theme of SoB is get beaten so thr SM look tougher?

nooooooope

It's unfortunate, but I think there is some truth to that. The Ecclesiarchy are even less sympathetic and relatable than the Space Marines and Inquisition, and tend to wind up occupying the 'enemy within' narrative space in stories about the Imperium. (Oddly, the Mechanicus are often treated the same, but don't seem to generate the same level of player bitterness.)

I can understand your frustration, but we probably shouldn't be surprised if the story plays out as 'Ecclesiarchy fail owing to their fanatical dogmatism, after they have died tragically but futilely, the comparatively more reasonable Astartes and Inquisition clean up the mess.'. It's happened in dozens of stories before, and it does so because it's one of the more logical endpoints of stories constructed from 40k's themes.

They don't actually characterize the Astartes and Inquisition as "reasonable" do they?

I mean, compared to the Sisters, maybe, but that's like calling arctic water "warm compared to liquid nitrogen."

This thread exploded into WoW and I was not even here? For shame.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Lord Fishface wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
lolwut the theme of SoB is get beaten so thr SM look tougher.

nooooooope

It's unfortunate, but I think there is some truth to that. The Ecclesiarchy are even less sympathetic and relatable than the Space Marines and Inquisition, and tend to wind up occupying the 'enemy within' narrative space in stories about the Imperium. (Oddly, the Mechanicus are often treated the same, but don't seem to generate the same level of player bitterness.)

I can understand your frustration, but we probably shouldn't be surprised if the story plays out as 'Ecclesiarchy fail owing to their fanatical dogmatism, after they have died tragically but futilely, the comparatively more reasonable Astartes and Inquisition clean up the mess.'. It's happened in dozens of stories before, and it does so because it's one of the more logical endpoints of stories constructed from 40k's themes.

They don't actually characterize the Astartes and Inquisition as "reasonable" do they?

I mean, compared to the Sisters, maybe, but that's like calling arctic water "warm compared to liquid nitrogen."

Within the confines of 40k's deliberately ridiculous setting, yes, it's a much easier task to read (and indeed to write) space-spies and space-soldiers (i.e. the Inquisition and Astartes) as relatable, sympathetic human protagonists than it is to do so with the Ecclesiarchy, who might as well be ISIS in space.

 Pouncey wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:


That is fine many of us 40k players are also RPG player's s but what do you like about the game that is 40k?

It is the only game in existence with anything like Sisters of Battle. That's literally the only reason I didn't play something else and drop 40k entirely - there's nothing like Sisters of Battle anywhere else in tabletop gaming. Or in video games for that matter.

We might be getting somewhere.
If I understand it correctly you don't like.

- The 40k game mechanics / rules.
- The 40k Fluff.
- The Sisters of battle Fluff
- Sisters of battle rules.
and you would love to convert them all into furries, right ?

So what do you exactly like about the sisters of battle that ties you down to the 40k game.
You don't have to be a 40k player to play with 40k models you know. Many of my RPG playing friends use lots of GW models and none of consider themselves to be 40k / AoS players.

 Pouncey wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I can't tell if I'm excited or aggravated by this. On the one hand, plastc Sisters is cool, the models look good, and the SoB fans will finally shut up because they're not being squatted. On the other hand, there will probably still be something in the release for people to complain about.

Yes, people tend to stop complaining when you finally give them what they've been wanting for a decade. Funny how that works, isn't it?

And of course there will still be complaints. Has any army's fans ever been completely happy with their latest version of stuff?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Troops are fine. Its the fact that the army lacks more specialized unit types that aren't just variations of normal battle sisters.

You mean like Repentia and Battle Conclaves and Priests and Penitent Engines?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Fishface wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
lolwut the theme of SoB is get beaten so thr SM look tougher?

nooooooope

It's unfortunate, but I think there is some truth to that. The Ecclesiarchy are even less sympathetic and relatable than the Space Marines and Inquisition, and tend to wind up occupying the 'enemy within' narrative space in stories about the Imperium. (Oddly, the Mechanicus are often treated the same, but don't seem to generate the same level of player bitterness.)

I can understand your frustration, but we probably shouldn't be surprised if the story plays out as 'Ecclesiarchy fail owing to their fanatical dogmatism, after they have died tragically but futilely, the comparatively more reasonable Astartes and Inquisition clean up the mess.'. It's happened in dozens of stories before, and it does so because it's one of the more logical endpoints of stories constructed from 40k's themes.

They don't actually characterize the Astartes and Inquisition as "reasonable" do they?

I mean, compared to the Sisters, maybe, but that's like calling arctic water "warm compared to liquid nitrogen."

Yeah only one of those is actually a Sister of Battle unit and none of them are tanks or fliers. They're also units I probably won't take unless they're redesigned to fit the look and theme of the army. They're an army of Joan of Arcs in power armor, that doesn't mesh with freaky torture machines which are basically a hold over from the Witch Hunters dex. I don't care what buffs he confers why would I be collecting an all female army to put Joe from accounts in the squad?

I think they might reimagine Celestians and have an a dual kit for Seraphim. Throw in a dual kit for the Exorcist and you're probably fine. But I would like the option to do a pure SoB army without recourse to the Witch Hunters stuff.

Agree with Pouncey that it makes no sense to say, the Sisters fail because they are too dogmatic so that's why the SM have to save the day. I know it varies by Chapter, but the SM are generally as hidebound as the rest of the IoM when it comes to myopic devotion to doctrine.

 Pouncey wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I can't tell if I'm excited or aggravated by this. On the one hand, plastc Sisters is cool, the models look good, and the SoB fans will finally shut up because they're not being squatted. On the other hand, there will probably still be something in the release for people to complain about.

Yes, people tend to stop complaining when you finally give them what they've been wanting for a decade. Funny how that works, isn't it?

And of course there will still be complaints. Has any army's fans ever been completely happy with their latest version of stuff?

Except they don't. There's already people complaining in the Sisters' rumors thread and there's people complaining about the new Traitor Legion rules. I think it's less about giving people what they want and more people just like to hate on GW.

I finally understood the design of the Seraphim jump packs when I saw Celestine's bodyguards - they're supposed to resemble angel wings.

Rules-wise, GW has kind of painted itself into a corner with Imperial Agents. If they change the rule for any of the units in that book, it makes them look like idiots. About all they can do at this point is create formations and detachments that give good bonuses. Mind you, they could go a long way with that.

I suppose they might also release some new units, but what they'd do with the theme they have is beyond me. Maybe have a cultist-type unit for Troops, and a flyer of some sort. I'd say they should port over the Avenger Strike Fighter, but so far GW proper taking over a model from Forge World is kind of a rare occurrence.

 Pouncey wrote:


I'm suggesting that Sisters of Battle in particular be given an exception due to the circumstances of the last two decades of general neglect and mistreatment.

3-4 months after finally getting an update, Wood Elves' most scared place was destroyed in End Times: Nagash IIRC.

Brettonia players similarly waited for an update, but instead, Nagash killed one of their major special characters without needing to strike a blow AFAIK.

Crazyterran wrote:

Davor wrote:
How ironic, it took World of Warcraft to derail a Sisters thread when it's Sisters that usually derail an thread.

So, what class do you play?

Team HumanPaladin.

Never played the game.

jreilly89 wrote:I can't tell if I'm excited or aggravated by this. On the one hand, plastc Sisters is cool, the models look good, and the SoB fans will finally shut up because they're not being squatted. On the other hand, there will probably still be something in the release for people to complain about.

They will complain because a new codex is not coming out and they are again relegated to a story book, the first being what Shield of Baal. Also there will be no other new releases and why are Sisters of Battle not getting a new line only one mini at a time.

Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:Pouncey, CrazyTerran, this is a 40K forum, not a WoW forum. If you want to discuss WoW at length, please take it to a WoW forum or to PM. I'm as disinterested in WoW as a nerd can possibly be.

Again this is funny. A lot of Sister (and Chaos) players do this all the time. I find it funny it's finally being done in a dedicated Sister thread. How ironic it is being done but not with a GW product. At least Sister (and Chaos) players do it when it's 40K related.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I can't tell if I'm excited or aggravated by this. On the one hand, plastc Sisters is cool, the models look good, and the SoB fans will finally shut up because they're not being squatted. On the other hand, there will probably still be something in the release for people to complain about.

Yes, people tend to stop complaining when you finally give them what they've been wanting for a decade. Funny how that works, isn't it?

And of course there will still be complaints. Has any army's fans ever been completely happy with their latest version of stuff?

Except they don't. There's already people complaining in the Sisters' rumors thread and there's people complaining about the new Traitor Legion rules. I think it's less about giving people what they want and more people just like to hate on GW.

I'll just leave you with this thought.

Your army is not Sisters of Battle. Your army spent the past 20 years getting new models on a semi-regular basis, with new units being added with every new Codex. Your models were sold on the shelves of every GW store around the world. Your standard infantry squads did not cost over one hundred dollars each to buy.

Sisters of Battle are getting their first plastic models during their army's 20th anniversary. The last time they got any new models was in 2003, during the third edition of the BRB. They lost units since then. The models we did have were gradually taken out of production and never replaced with anything. Our models stopped being stocked on GW shelves entirely, along with most LGS, so we had to order them from the Internet if we wanted to expand our armies in any way. In 2006, a full decade ago, Jes Goodwin, a model designer for GW, told people at a Games Day that plastic Sisters of Battle models were "nearly complete, just some kinks to work out with the robes".

When you saw things like Imperial Knights, Militarum Tempestus, Mechanicum, Warhammer 30k, and Skitaari came out, I have no doubts you saw them as fun additions to the game that enhanced the flavor.

When I saw those things come out, what I saw was GW inventing entirely new factions with full model ranges while my own 20 year metal models still weren't being updated.

If your army had been treated like Sisters of Battle had, you would be just as damned negative as Sisters of Battle players are, and exactly as unwilling to trust GW. Just imagine how pissed you'd be if your army had been using only the models they had in 3rd edition and earlier, up until the present day.

You would be just as pissed as we've been. You simply don't understand because you've never tried to understand. You've never imagined how you might feel in the Sisters of Battle's place. You've never cared to try to understand where that hate comes from. It is completely justified.

I don't understand because I see a faction get new things and then immediately complain after months of whining about never getting anything.

 Pouncey wrote:


I'll just leave you with this thought.

Your army is not Sisters of Battle. Your army spent the past 20 years getting new models on a semi-regular basis, with new units being added with every new Codex. Your models were sold on the shelves of every GW store around the world. Your standard infantry squads did not cost over one hundred dollars each to buy.

Sisters of Battle are getting their first plastic models during their army's 20th anniversary. The last time they got any new models was in 2003, during the third edition of the BRB. They lost units since then. The models we did have were gradually taken out of production and never replaced with anything. Our models stopped being stocked on GW shelves entirely, along with most LGS, so we had to order them from the Internet if we wanted to expand our armies in any way. In 2006, a full decade ago, Jes Goodwin, a model designer for GW, told people at a Games Day that plastic Sisters of Battle models were "nearly complete, just some kinks to work out with the robes".

When you saw things like Imperial Knights, Militarum Tempestus, Mechanicum, Warhammer 30k, and Skitaari came out, I have no doubts you saw them as fun additions to the game that enhanced the flavor.

When I saw those things come out, what I saw was GW inventing entirely new factions with full model ranges while my own 20 year metal models still weren't being updated.

If your army had been treated like Sisters of Battle had, you would be just as damned negative as Sisters of Battle players are, and exactly as unwilling to trust GW. Just imagine how pissed you'd be if your army had been using only the models they had in 3rd edition and earlier, up until the present day.

You would be just as pissed as we've been. You simply don't understand because you've never tried to understand. You've never imagined how you might feel in the Sisters of Battle's place. You've never cared to try to understand where that hate comes from. It is completely justified.

I would have kept with them for as long as I could, or perhaps moved to another army. I would have adapted and likely not have complained much. There's a limit to the usefulness of complaints, I'm in no position to demand anything, and GW certainly doesn't owe me jack.

"Some mutha****** always want to ice skate up a hill."

pm713 wrote:
I don't understand because I see a faction get new things and then immediately complain after months of whining about never getting anything.

We've gotten two special characters thus far. That's ALL.

We haven't gotten a single squad kit yet, only Celestine and a resin Canoness.

Battle Sisters Squads? Haven't seen em yet.
Dominions? Nope.
Retributors? Uh-uh.
Seraphim? Nope, they dual-wield pistols and Celestine's guards have power swords.
Exorcist in all-plastic? Not a sign of it yet.
Penitent Engines? Nope.
Repentia? Nope.
Literally anything whatsoever than two Special Characters? No.

You may assume that those will follow. Frankly, I agree, but Sisters of Battle players have had to deal with the reality for over 10 years that simply assuming that GW will update the models does not mean it will actually happen. So we simply don't get excited for things we ASSUME will come anymore.

And that hatred will absolutely NOT vanish at the first plastic kit to ever see the light of day.

Games Workshop's handling of this update has also been terrible. Their "announcement" a few months ago was a brief snippet after the closing logos of a video about Magnus' model, and frankly it came off as a joke rather than a serious announcement. No models were shown. No actual evidence was given that the kits were coming at all. They seem to fail to recognize that Sisters of Battle are a special case, that their mistreatment of the army should demand a higher-than-standard level of information being given out. They don't seem to realize how bad their conduct's been in the eyes of players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:


I'll just leave you with this thought.

Your army is not Sisters of Battle. Your army spent the past 20 years getting new models on a semi-regular basis, with new units being added with every new Codex. Your models were sold on the shelves of every GW store around the world. Your standard infantry squads did not cost over one hundred dollars each to buy.

Sisters of Battle are getting their first plastic models during their army's 20th anniversary. The last time they got any new models was in 2003, during the third edition of the BRB. They lost units since then. The models we did have were gradually taken out of production and never replaced with anything. Our models stopped being stocked on GW shelves entirely, along with most LGS, so we had to order them from the Internet if we wanted to expand our armies in any way. In 2006, a full decade ago, Jes Goodwin, a model designer for GW, told people at a Games Day that plastic Sisters of Battle models were "nearly complete, just some kinks to work out with the robes".

When you saw things like Imperial Knights, Militarum Tempestus, Mechanicum, Warhammer 30k, and Skitaari came out, I have no doubts you saw them as fun additions to the game that enhanced the flavor.

When I saw those things come out, what I saw was GW inventing entirely new factions with full model ranges while my own 20 year metal models still weren't being updated.

If your army had been treated like Sisters of Battle had, you would be just as damned negative as Sisters of Battle players are, and exactly as unwilling to trust GW. Just imagine how pissed you'd be if your army had been using only the models they had in 3rd edition and earlier, up until the present day.

You would be just as pissed as we've been. You simply don't understand because you've never tried to understand. You've never imagined how you might feel in the Sisters of Battle's place. You've never cared to try to understand where that hate comes from. It is completely justified.

I would have kept with them for as long as I could, or perhaps moved to another army. I would have adapted and likely not have complained much. There's a limit to the usefulness of complaints, I'm in no position to demand anything, and GW certainly doesn't owe me jack.

"Some mutha****** always want to ice skate up a hill."

I don't like any other armies.

New Celestine, new Canoness, TWO new Detachments, new and improved rules or at worst copy and pasted rules with the exception of Celestine who will get rules with the shiny new model.

Hatred just makes me think you're way too invested in this emotionally. Everyone gets the nasty end of the stick by GW.

I don't see why Sisters need to be treated differently from any other army. GW has handled this just fine - it was transparently obvious that their tease of plastic Sisters in the Magnus video was explicit confirmation, not a joke.

Given that the one bit of art we've seen featuring Celestine at Cadia depicts a massive host of Seraphim behind her, it seems clear that Sisters will indeed have a major presence during the battle.

I'd also be shocked if we didn't see a wider range of plastic kits. It's clear that the stultifying influence of GW's old management has given way to an environment where fleshing out deserving factions is now seen as a way to both please the fans and profit. We've seen plastic AdMech, whose fans have been waiting longer than anyone , and now Deathwatch and Genestealer Cults as well. I don't see why GW would go to the trouble of working up plastic Seraphim for the Celestine kit and then call it a day there.

I'm sure AdMech fans would have been exceedingly grateful to be stuck with an extremely limited range of models for the last 15 years, as opposed to nothing at all.

 Pouncey wrote:
They seem to fail to recognize that Sisters of Battle are a special case

This about sums up all sisters players in these threads.

pm713 wrote:
New Celestine, new Canoness, TWO new Detachments, new and improved rules or at worst copy and pasted rules with the exception of Celestine who will get rules with the shiny new model.

Hatred just makes me think you're way too invested in this emotionally. Everyone gets the nasty end of the stick by GW.

You're kinda making me want to research the release dates of currently-available models and provide a list of all models that would never have been created if GW stopped creating new models for each and every army after 2003, instead of just Sisters of Battle.

To represent Celestine and Veridyan, I'd make a note of the first two character models created for each army after 2003. The first would've gone on pre-order three weeks ago. The second will go on pre-order two weeks from now and you wouldn't even know about it at all had someone not received a WD in the mail early and decided to share.

Do I really have to go through all that trouble?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
They seem to fail to recognize that Sisters of Battle are a special case

This about sums up all sisters players in these threads.

FYI, this is the first post I created after seeing the Celestine picture:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/711521.page#9089038

I am negative now, in this thread, because the constant assertion that Sisters of Battle were treated equally to other armies has become just as tiresome and annoying to me as Sisters of Battle players' negativity has become to players of other armies. The constant accusations of "Oh, you're just a jerk who loves to complain," ignores the reality of the situation for me, as that absolutely is not true for me.

Sisters could have been treated better, but the fact remains that they've been supported with a playable range of good models and official rules since their release. It's not a pre-5th Dark Eldar situation where the entire model range was hot garbage and desperately needed an overhaul.

TheTuninator wrote:
Sisters could have been treated better, but the fact remains that they've been supported with a playable range of good models and official rules since their release. It's not a pre-5th Dark Eldar situation where the entire model range was hot garbage and desperately needed an overhaul.

I think most Sisters of Battle players agree that the models we had were very, very well-designed and the aesthetic has held up very well over time.

The issue is just that our army didn't get anything new for 13 years. Players who love to experiment with new units and options didn't get new units or loadout options (though I do recall there was a lot of excitement for Battle Conclaves) to try out. Collectors didn't get anything new to collect. People who love to customize models were hampered by the models all being monopose, solid metal which are difficult to customize at all. New players were turned away by the high prices.

The issue wasn't that what we have in terms of models sucks. They look good, I don't deny that, and I'm 100% hoping the plastics have the same aesthetic designs. It's that the metal models are too expensive and hard to work with, and we didn't get any new toys to play with (though again, we did get Battle Conclaves and they were positively appreciated), and it went on for over a decade while GW created entirely new armies instead of updating one that seriously needed it.

 Pouncey wrote:

If your army had been treated like Sisters of Battle had, you would be just as damned negative as Sisters of Battle players are, and exactly as unwilling to trust GW. Just imagine how pissed you'd be if your army had been using only the models they had in 3rd edition and earlier, up until the present day.

You would be just as pissed as we've been. You simply don't understand because you've never tried to understand. You've never imagined how you might feel in the Sisters of Battle's place. You've never cared to try to understand where that hate comes from. It is completely justified.

Nope not at all. I am also an wfb battle bretonnia player or at least I used to be. am also a rakham player..... no need to explain that any further. If GW somehow released a new plastic green knight together with an army list that made it possible to play wrb again, or hell even just new men at arms. I would have reacted in quite an other way than you just did. You are in an extreme luxuary position. Your game is still alive, your codex is in production, you just got a supplement, and there are new models on the horizon and you have access to the disposable money to buy it all. Get a hold of yourself, man / girl up and enjoy the times ahead.
Use that attitude for when times are truly dire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also are you sure that you are a 40k player and not just a 40k mini collector who likes to play other games with those mini's ?

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

If your army had been treated like Sisters of Battle had, you would be just as damned negative as Sisters of Battle players are, and exactly as unwilling to trust GW. Just imagine how pissed you'd be if your army had been using only the models they had in 3rd edition and earlier, up until the present day.

You would be just as pissed as we've been. You simply don't understand because you've never tried to understand. You've never imagined how you might feel in the Sisters of Battle's place. You've never cared to try to understand where that hate comes from. It is completely justified.

Nope not at all. I am also an wfb battle bretonnia player or at least I used to be. am also a rakham player..... no need to explain that any further. If GW somehow released a new plastic green knight together with an army list that made it possible to play wrb again, or hell even just new men at arms. I would have reacted in quite an other way than you just did. You are in an extreme luxuary position. Your game is still alive, your codex is in production, you just got a supplement, and there are new models on the horizon and you have access to the disposable money to buy it all. Get a hold of yourself, man / girl up and enjoy the times ahead.
Use that attitude for when times are truly dire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also are you sure that you are a 40k player and not just a 40k mini collector who likes to play other games with those mini's ?

Hey, uh, I have a question for you.

Have you, like, actually seen the posts containing my reaction to the Celestine photograph?

Do you want to?

Like, do you actually care about learning how I reacted to the first plastic Sisters of Battle kit ever, or would you instead prefer to continue imagining how I must have reacted according to your erroneous assumption that I simply enjoy complaining and look for any excuse to do so whatsoever?

 Pouncey wrote:

TheTuninator wrote:
Sisters could have been treated better, but the fact remains that they've been supported with a playable range of good models and official rules since their release. It's not a pre-5th Dark Eldar situation where the entire model range was hot garbage and desperately needed an overhaul.

I think most Sisters of Battle players agree that the models we had were very, very well-designed and the aesthetic has held up very well over time.

The issue is just that our army didn't get anything new for 13 years.

You know, Chaos players would have given you their dinobots and mutilators to have had an army-wide aesthetic that remained constant, in both appearance and theme for 13 gods damned years instead of going from....

Traitor Legions.
Renegades.
Bit of Both.
Lost and the Damned?
TRANSFORMERS, DAEMONS IN DISGUISE.
Traitor Legions again.

The Thousand Sons release was beautiful because GW realised, by this point, that Chaos players were dipping into 30k rather than use the sad excuse of a ramshackle range we currently have and so they made the miniatures very reminiscent of the 30k aesthetic for Mk IV armour and Tartaros terminators.

I can only hope further releases do the same, bringing some semblance of unity to our aesthetic.

But back to this thread.

'You would have been just as pissed as we've been. You simply don't understand because you've never tried to understand'

Which I'm guessing is exactly why every damn Sisters player on this forum was damned and determined to piss all over the CSM playerbase's unrefined joy after seeing the book we've been waiting for, for over a decade finally come to be. Our range is, hilariously, mismatched, half of it was OLDER than your newest parts and we've basically just been gak on by Sisters players the whole damn time.

But I find it somewhat hilarious that an army who have an entire theme consisting of martyrdom and religious self-sacrifice has a playerbase that is outraged that martyrdom and self-sacrifice is a dominant part of what the sisters do in significant events in the game's setting.

I suppose it's like a World Eaters player posting about how there's far too much blood and gore in World Eaters background fluff and how that's just not right.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

TheTuninator wrote:
Sisters could have been treated better, but the fact remains that they've been supported with a playable range of good models and official rules since their release. It's not a pre-5th Dark Eldar situation where the entire model range was hot garbage and desperately needed an overhaul.

I think most Sisters of Battle players agree that the models we had were very, very well-designed and the aesthetic has held up very well over time.

The issue is just that our army didn't get anything new for 13 years.

You know, Chaos players would have given you their dinobots and mutilators to have had an army-wide aesthetic that remained constant, in both appearance and theme for 13 gods damned years instead of going from....

Traitor Legions.
Renegades.
Bit of Both.
Lost and the Damned?
TRANSFORMERS, DAEMONS IN DISGUISE.
Traitor Legions again.

The Thousand Sons release was beautiful because GW realised, by this point, that Chaos players were dipping into 30k rather than use the sad excuse of a ramshackle range we currently have and so they made the miniatures very reminiscent of the 30k aesthetic for Mk IV armour and Tartaros terminators.

I can only hope further releases do the same, bringing some semblance of unity to our aesthetic.

But back to this thread.

'You would have been just as pissed as we've been. You simply don't understand because you've never tried to understand'

Which I'm guessing is exactly why every damn Sisters player on this forum was damned and determined to piss all over the CSM playerbase's unrefined joy after seeing the book we've been waiting for, for over a decade finally come to be. Our range is, hilariously, mismatched, half of it was OLDER than your newest parts and we've basically just been gak on by Sisters players the whole damn time.

But I find it somewhat hilarious that an army who have an entire theme consisting of martyrdom and religious self-sacrifice has a playerbase that is outraged that martyrdom and self-sacrifice is a dominant part of what the sisters do in significant events in the game's setting.

I suppose it's like a World Eaters player posting about how there's far too much blood and gore in World Eaters background fluff and how that's just not right.

No, seriously. Do you actually want to see the first post I made after seeing the Celestine model? Do you want to see how I actually feel about the Celestine leak?

 Pouncey wrote:


No, seriously. Do you actually want to see the first post I made after seeing the Celestine model? Do you want to see how I actually feel about the Celestine leak?

No. Because attempting to defend yourself AFTER stating that you've had a consistent aesthetic in terms of appearance and design for 13 years and then producing THIS old chestnut...

'You would have been just as pissed as we've been. You simply don't understand because you've never tried to understand'

Pretty much is for nothing.

You've already shot yourself in the foot as this thread shows.

It's yet another Sisters' victim complex, yet another bleatfest.

And by the gods it's getting real old.

 Manchu wrote:
... get crushed by Chaos at Cadia?

First off - I love the new kit with Celestine and her Seraphim Guard ... but I wouldn't be a true Sisters fan if I didn't have ... concerns ... about something. And here's what concerns me, aside from still needing to SEE some more plastic Sisters kits: SoB have way too often been the whipping girls for the various enemies of Mankind. The Sisters make a valiant, self-sacrificial last stand against hopeless odds ... in essence, they get Worfed so that whatever flavor of SM shows up to actually save the day gets to really bask in the limelight. It's ... frustrating.

So here is my plea to GW - please please please do not make (or do not have made) Saint Celestine and the SoB the fall girls of Gathering Storm and beyond!

Just be glad you're getting a new codex and new models. I used to play fantasy when skaven still had an 8 page FAQ. Then we had End Times followed by AoS. I can't play 8th at the GW now and the FAQ isn't around anymore which helped tremendously.

I realize Sisters needed new stuff but at least you are getting new stuff. My game is dead and a couple armies got totally squatted (beastmen and bretonnia). Just realize you're getting something and accept it. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Oh and my first army was guard. They're the punching bags of 40k with space marines glory hogging the day for them every single time. Seriously in our 5th ed army book we only won about half the noted battles.

-------

Btw with the exception of End Times which wasn't a full blown army release (and we got only vermin lords and stormfiends which were good) we haven't had an update since probably '08. Also no AoS doesn't count. It didn't add both new models and new rules for an existing game. Most of the skaven model line remains the same since '08 or '09.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:


No, seriously. Do you actually want to see the first post I made after seeing the Celestine model? Do you want to see how I actually feel about the Celestine leak?

No. Because attempting to defend yourself AFTER stating that you've had a consistent aesthetic in terms of appearance and design for 13 years and then producing THIS old chestnut...

'You would have been just as pissed as we've been. You simply don't understand because you've never tried to understand'

Pretty much is for nothing.

You've already shot yourself in the foot as this thread shows.

It's yet another Sisters' victim complex, yet another bleatfest.

And by the gods it's getting real old.

Really? You don't even want to, like, read it? I can go find the link, it's not a very long post.

Also, you sound pretty upset at your own model range. Maybe we're more alike than we think, we simply have different issues with our model ranges and our own personal preferences lead us to want what the other one got. I mean, people like different things. You like a consistent aesthetic and don't care about getting new models at all, so if you liked Sisters of Battle and not Chaos you'd've been happy. I like getting lots of new kits to kitbash together and convert models, so if I liked Space Marines I'd've been happy.

But really we both like our factions for reasons that make it so we don't even entertain the idea of switching to the army that's getting the kind of model range we want. So we're both deeply unhappy with our model ranges, for different reasons, because we prioritize different things.

Your issue with Sisters of Battle complaints is really just that you haven't considered maybe other people want something different out of their models, so you never considered that maybe Sisters of Battle players who are upset with the lack of updates might've been just fine if we'd gotten updates, even if they changed our aesthetic in some ways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
... get crushed by Chaos at Cadia?

First off - I love the new kit with Celestine and her Seraphim Guard ... but I wouldn't be a true Sisters fan if I didn't have ... concerns ... about something. And here's what concerns me, aside from still needing to SEE some more plastic Sisters kits: SoB have way too often been the whipping girls for the various enemies of Mankind. The Sisters make a valiant, self-sacrificial last stand against hopeless odds ... in essence, they get Worfed so that whatever flavor of SM shows up to actually save the day gets to really bask in the limelight. It's ... frustrating.

So here is my plea to GW - please please please do not make (or do not have made) Saint Celestine and the SoB the fall girls of Gathering Storm and beyond!

Just be glad you're getting a new codex and new models. I used to play fantasy when skaven still had an 8 page FAQ. Then we had End Times followed by AoS. I can't play 8th at the GW now and the FAQ isn't around anymore which helped tremendously.

I realize Sisters needed new stuff but at least you are getting new stuff. My game is dead and a couple armies got totally squatted (beastmen and bretonnia). Just realize you're getting something and accept it. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Oh and my first army was guard. They're the punching bags of 40k with space marines glory hogging the day for them every single time. Seriously in our 5th ed army book we only won about half the noted battles.

You, uh, should probably look at the examples you're picking for armies and games that were treated worse than Sisters of Battle, and consider what they have in common.

WHFB, Beastmen, Bretonnia.

The things all your examples have in common is that they don't exist at all anymore.

That is literally how low you have to set the bar to say Sisters of Battle haven't had it as rough as some others.

I'm saying you're getting something as opposed to be written off entirely. You don't get to complain. I know of others that would kill to be in your position getting an update. In fact as a Fantasy player i'd love to still have the Fantasy setting even if skaven got written off because then i could just play vampire counts or something. I realize you got treated like crap by 40k standards but that's infinitely better than having your entire game setting destroyed and possibly having your army squatted entirely. You can't understand how filled with jealousy i am and yet you continue to complain. I actually considered doing beastmen at one point because i liked the models and one of my friends was actually an avid fan of them. I can only imagine how bad he feels now. Keep in mind he played beastmen and they didn't even get an update in End Times and their army book was about as old as skaven.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I'm saying you're getting something as opposed to be written off entirely. You don't get to complain. I know of others that would kill to be in your position getting an update. In fact as a Fantasy player i'd love to still have the Fantasy setting even if skaven got written off because then i could just play vampire counts or something. I realize you got treated like crap by 40k standards but that's infinitely better than having your entire game setting destroyed and possibly having your army squatted entirely. You can't understand how filled with jealousy i am and yet you continue to complain. I actually considered doing beastmen at one point because i liked the models and one of my friends was actually an avid fan of them. I can only imagine how bad he feels now.

So again I ask.

Are you really content to merely assume how I feel about the current situation based on your imagination?

Or would you like me to link you the post where I react to the Celestine photo after having seen it for the first time?

Why turn down the opportunity to use the actual facts of that post against me?

 Pouncey wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I'm saying you're getting something as opposed to be written off entirely. You don't get to complain. I know of others that would kill to be in your position getting an update. In fact as a Fantasy player i'd love to still have the Fantasy setting even if skaven got written off because then i could just play vampire counts or something. I realize you got treated like crap by 40k standards but that's infinitely better than having your entire game setting destroyed and possibly having your army squatted entirely. You can't understand how filled with jealousy i am and yet you continue to complain. I actually considered doing beastmen at one point because i liked the models and one of my friends was actually an avid fan of them. I can only imagine how bad he feels now.

So again I ask.

Are you really content to merely assume how I feel about the current situation based on your imagination?

Or would you like me to link you the post where I react to the Celestine photo after having seen it for the first time?

Why turn down the opportunity to use the actual facts of that post against me?

I don't care. Link it. I'm just saying you guys can't complain. Some GW fans have been treated far worse than Sisters players. I practically left when they murdered Fantasy. You realize i have about 3,000 points of skaven i can never play with again just lying around.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I'm saying you're getting something as opposed to be written off entirely. You don't get to complain. I know of others that would kill to be in your position getting an update. In fact as a Fantasy player i'd love to still have the Fantasy setting even if skaven got written off because then i could just play vampire counts or something. I realize you got treated like crap by 40k standards but that's infinitely better than having your entire game setting destroyed and possibly having your army squatted entirely. You can't understand how filled with jealousy i am and yet you continue to complain. I actually considered doing beastmen at one point because i liked the models and one of my friends was actually an avid fan of them. I can only imagine how bad he feels now.

So again I ask.

Are you really content to merely assume how I feel about the current situation based on your imagination?

Or would you like me to link you the post where I react to the Celestine photo after having seen it for the first time?

Why turn down the opportunity to use the actual facts of that post against me?

I don't care. Link it. I'm just saying you guys can't complain. Some GW fans have been treated far worse than Sisters players. I practically left when they murdered Fantasy. You realize i have about 3,000 points of skaven i can never play with again just lying around.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/711521.page#9089038

You may notice a level of enthusiam and excitement and happiness in that post which you typically do not associate with me.

It's getting to the point where the mods should just consolidate all the SoB salt into one mega whinge thread.

 MarsNZ wrote:
It's getting to the point where the mods should just consolidate all the SoB salt into one mega whinge thread.

It's getting to the point where there is more salt about Sisters salt than there is Sisters salt itself, actually.

 Pouncey wrote:

The constant accusations of "Oh, you're just a jerk who loves to complain," ignores the reality of the situation for me, as that absolutely is not true for me.

One doesn't contradict the other.

As an imperial guard player I can empathize with the feeling that your army only exists so that another army can save them. I would really like to see some more variation in how GW handles its lore and its heroes. Those that save the day are almost always space marines and I'd like the love to be shared a little more so as to give the rest of the armies something to cheer for.

 koooaei wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

The constant accusations of "Oh, you're just a jerk who loves to complain," ignores the reality of the situation for me, as that absolutely is not true for me.

One doesn't contradict the other.

Look, here's my point.

Tons of people have argued with me that I should be happy now that my army's got Celestine on the horizon.

And the point of me offering to link that post I made after I saw that Celestine model is that, YES, I actually AM happy now, which you would KNOW if you read the freaking post I kept offering to link. I even found a clip from the Get Smart movie with the Cone of Silence where Maxwell is promoted to Agent, something he has wanted for a long time, and he takes the control for the cone of silence, activates it so no one can hear him, but it fizzles out, so we get to hear him shout loudly, "I'M SO HAPPY I'M SO HAPPY THIS IS THE BEST DAY OF MY LIFE!" I then link the GIF with the enormous text "It's happening!"

Yet you don't freaking KNOW that, because you never cared to actually ask how I feel about it and you never took me up on the offer for me to show you. You just assumed that I was still unhappy despite the update, PURELY because it fits the narrative in your own minds of what all Sisters of Battle players are like. And you ignored REALITY to keep that narrative intact.

When have i ever accused any sob player of being an unjustified complainer?

I miss the WoW talk.

But seriously, hopefully Sisters at least get a Seraphim and sister squad box. Even if they only give it one if each heavy soecialmweapon, you could slowly build those Retributor squads!

 koooaei wrote:
When have i ever accused any sob player of being an unjustified complainer?

The post you quoted there was me saying that I'm not the kind of person who complains for the sake of complaining.

You then tried to tell me that what I said wasn't true.

I play Sisters of Battle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazyterran wrote:
I miss the WoW talk.

But seriously, hopefully Sisters at least get a Seraphim and sister squad box. Even if they only give it one if each heavy soecialmweapon, you could slowly build those Retributor squads!

I miss when people around here sympathized with Sisters of Battle players instead of insulting them constantly for talking about their army.

 Pouncey wrote:

I miss when people around here sympathized with Sisters of Battle players instead of insulting them constantly for talking about their army.

Kinda hard to sympathise when every thread about model lines from any other faction, although usually Chaos, would get derailed into "wont someone please think of the Sisters".

 Pouncey wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:
It's getting to the point where the mods should just consolidate all the SoB salt into one mega whinge thread.

It's getting to the point where there is more salt about Sisters salt than there is Sisters salt itself, actually.

That's called the Principle of Causation.

To the op, it's fall of cadia.

Its the guard that need saving. Pretty sure the sisters are there to help defend the planet.

And with all the new sneakpeaks being released, so far its just looks like a lone celestian, a lone admech dude and a lone inquisitor with a bunch of dark templars.

 MarsNZ wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

I miss when people around here sympathized with Sisters of Battle players instead of insulting them constantly for talking about their army.

Kinda hard to sympathise when every thread about model lines from any other faction, although usually Chaos, would get derailed into "wont someone please think of the Sisters".

You'll have to forgive me for thinking you might be overstating things there. Earlier this week I saw a few people trash-talking Sisters of Battle players for dominating the conversation in pretty much all Codex: Imperial Agents thread, as though it were an unholy sin for Sisters of Battle players to talk at length primarily about the army they themselves play in topics about a multi-faction Codex that included Sisters of Battle as one of the factions in the Codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:
It's getting to the point where the mods should just consolidate all the SoB salt into one mega whinge thread.

It's getting to the point where there is more salt about Sisters salt than there is Sisters salt itself, actually.

That's called the Principle of Causation.

No, I think what's literally happened is that a lot of you guys have started just complaining about Sisters of Battle players incessantly because you have a deep-seated view of them you're unwilling to consider might be wrong. You're just like you think Sisters of Battle players are, only your targets for endless complaints are Sisters of Battle players, not GW.

Over the past week, I've had numerous conversations with you guys that suggests some very unusual things about how you think about Sisters of Battle players. After expressing my jubilation at the Celestine kit, one guy started telling me how unusual it was that I was being happy and excited instead of angry and mopey. It literally never even occurred to him that it was possible that my attitude might change upon witnessing first-hand the start of the army's update in plastics, he believed that even with the plastic updates I would forever be angry and negative.

I've offered to show people how I reacted to the Celestine model after they accuse me of not being happy no matter what. They all flat-out refused to even consider the possibility that a Sisters of Battle player was capable of anything other than complaining about everything.

 Pouncey wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

I miss when people around here sympathized with Sisters of Battle players instead of insulting them constantly for talking about their army.

Kinda hard to sympathise when every thread about model lines from any other faction, although usually Chaos, would get derailed into "wont someone please think of the Sisters".

You'll have to forgive me for thinking you might be overstating things there. Earlier this week I saw a few people trash-talking Sisters of Battle players for dominating the conversation in pretty much all Codex: Imperial Agents thread, as though it were an unholy sin for Sisters of Battle players to talk at length primarily about the army they themselves play in topics about a multi-faction Codex that included Sisters of Battle as one of the factions in the Codex.

Those same Sisters players were trying to take over the conversation in the Traitor Legions thread.

You know, the supplement for a completely different army.

They also tried with Wrath of Magnus - because for some reason they were angry that a campaign focused on Thousand Sons, Tzeentchian Daemons and Space Wolves didn't have new content for Sisters of Battle.

It wouldn't be so bad - except the complaints generally go from 'Sisters never have new models' to 'Sisters never have new rules' and 'OMG Sisters never get represented in fluff.'

And when they DO get represented the immediate response is to throw the teddy out of the pram and scream about not being represented right.

You know why there's salt? Because you do gak like this. Repeatedly. To the point where it's a meme.

Sisters players have become the Tumblrinas of DakkaDakka and that's just sad.


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 Pouncey wrote:

I've offered to show people how I reacted to the Celestine model after they accuse me of not being happy no matter what. They all flat-out refused to even consider the possibility that a Sisters of Battle player was capable of anything other than complaining about everything.

Your offer to show it, desperate as that was, comes out a hell of a lot like the 'I'm not racist, I have black friends' defense.

Your offer was also incredibly pointless - it's not going to magically erase the contradictions you've already produced in this thread alone. You don't get to say 'I'm not negative' and then produce a rant about how everyone else wouldn't understand because they haven't suffered nearly as much as you have. It doesn't work like that. Really.

oldzoggy wrote:[ You are in an extreme luxuary position. Your game is still alive, your codex is in production, you just got a supplement, and there are new models on the horizon and you have access to the disposable money to buy it all. Get a hold of yourself, man / girl up and enjoy the times ahead.
Use that attitude for when times are truly dire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also are you sure that you are a 40k player and not just a 40k mini collector who likes to play other games with those mini's ?

He boasts that he hasn't played 40K in over 2 years. For someone who has "given" up 40K he sure is passionate about something he doesn't care about which he also has claimed.

flamingkillamajig wrote:[I don't care. Link it. I'm just saying you guys can't complain. Some GW fans have been treated far worse than Sisters players. I practically left when they murdered Fantasy. You realize i have about 3,000 points of skaven i can never play with again just lying around.

You can play with them, you just choose not to play with them. Is someone holding a gun to your head that you can't play Age of Sigmar or old editions of Fantasy or use them for something else?

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

I miss when people around here sympathized with Sisters of Battle players instead of insulting them constantly for talking about their army.

Kinda hard to sympathise when every thread about model lines from any other faction, although usually Chaos, would get derailed into "wont someone please think of the Sisters".

You'll have to forgive me for thinking you might be overstating things there. Earlier this week I saw a few people trash-talking Sisters of Battle players for dominating the conversation in pretty much all Codex: Imperial Agents thread, as though it were an unholy sin for Sisters of Battle players to talk at length primarily about the army they themselves play in topics about a multi-faction Codex that included Sisters of Battle as one of the factions in the Codex.

Those same Sisters players were trying to take over the conversation in the Traitor Legions thread.

You know, the supplement for a completely different army.

They also tried with Wrath of Magnus - because for some reason they were angry that a campaign focused on Thousand Sons, Tzeentchian Daemons and Space Wolves didn't have new content for Sisters of Battle.

It wouldn't be so bad - except the complaints generally go from 'Sisters never have new models' to 'Sisters never have new rules' and 'OMG Sisters never get represented in fluff.'

And when they DO get represented the immediate response is to throw the teddy out of the pram and scream about not being represented right.

You know why there's salt? Because you do gak like this. Repeatedly. To the point where it's a meme.

Sisters players have become the Tumblrinas of DakkaDakka and that's just sad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:

I've offered to show people how I reacted to the Celestine model after they accuse me of not being happy no matter what. They all flat-out refused to even consider the possibility that a Sisters of Battle player was capable of anything other than complaining about everything.

Your offer to show it, desperate as that was, comes out a hell of a lot like the 'I'm not racist, I have black friends' defense.

Your offer was also incredibly pointless - it's not going to magically erase the contradictions you've already produced in this thread alone. You don't get to say 'I'm not negative' and then produce a rant about how everyone else wouldn't understand because they haven't suffered nearly as much as you have. It doesn't work like that. Really.

Like I said earlier.

I'm happy about the new models.

But the only armies that can claim worse mistreatment than Sisters of Battle are ones that have been Squatted, so the assertion that all armies are equally as mistreated as Sisters of Battle is erroneous, and it has been such a common statement for people to make that I have a negative reaction to it.

My negativity in this thread is not about the CURRENT situation, it is about the assertion that all armies had it as bad as Sisters.

 Pouncey wrote:

But the only armies that can claim worse mistreatment than Sisters of Battle are ones that have been Squatted, so the assertion that all armies are equally as mistreated as Sisters of Battle is erroneous, and it has been such a common statement for people to make that I have a negative reaction to it.

My negativity in this thread is not about the CURRENT situation, it is about the assertion that all armies had it as bad as Sisters.

CSM players have only now gotten the first steps to becoming more than punching bags for the story. Like I said, we're bloody thankful for that. They've also started to realise that even if only for certain Legions/powers that a unified aesthetic is perfect. Hell, I personally believe the CSM range should have its aesthetic deeply rooted in 30k armour and weapon designs as opposed to just sculpting trims on current Imperial kits.

Dark Eldar players were literally ignored for about a decade - then had almost all their special characters conveniently forgotten about. I think they're allowed to be a bit annoyed.

GSC players can rejoice that 6 editions later people remember they existed and give them rules again.

Legion of the Damned players...are still stuffed - I mean sure, they can run as SM or they can use an odd detachment that takes away half the units they'd probably converted and painted up. But something.

Ork players feel pretty damn neglected on a rules front. Their codex is a hot mess of underperformance to be honest.

If you think SM players have been complaining then stop sipping Traditio's Kool-Aid, thanks.

 Pouncey wrote:

But the only armies that can claim worse mistreatment than Sisters of Battle are ones that have been Squatted, so the assertion that all armies are equally as mistreated as Sisters of Battle is erroneous, and it has been such a common statement for people to make that I have a negative reaction to it.

My negativity in this thread is not about the CURRENT situation, it is about the assertion that all armies had it as bad as Sisters.

Try leaving the goalposts alone. Nobody made that assertion. The assertion is that SoB players don't get sympathy because they derail discussion about any other factions model line into a discussion about how "Sisters have been mistreated", exactly what you're doing here.

 MarsNZ wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

But the only armies that can claim worse mistreatment than Sisters of Battle are ones that have been Squatted, so the assertion that all armies are equally as mistreated as Sisters of Battle is erroneous, and it has been such a common statement for people to make that I have a negative reaction to it.

My negativity in this thread is not about the CURRENT situation, it is about the assertion that all armies had it as bad as Sisters.

Try leaving the goalposts alone. Nobody made that assertion. The assertion is that SoB players don't get sympathy because they derail discussion about any other factions model line into a discussion about how "Sisters have been mistreated", exactly what you're doing here.

You, uh... might want to read the title of the thread you're posting in.

 Pouncey wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:


Try leaving the goalposts alone. Nobody made that assertion. The assertion is that SoB players don't get sympathy because they derail discussion about any other factions model line into a discussion about how "Sisters have been mistreated", exactly what you're doing here.

You, uh... might want to read the title of the thread you're posting in.

REVENGE

pm713 wrote:New Celestine, new Canoness, TWO new Detachments, new and improved rules or at worst copy and pasted rules with the exception of Celestine who will get rules with the shiny new model.

Hatred just makes me think you're way too invested in this emotionally. Everyone gets the nasty end of the stick by GW.

No one who plays 40K has more reason to be salty than Sisters of Battle players. The reason their army has had a consistent aesthetic since 3rd ed? They haven't gotten anything new since 3rd ed.

Chaos players have had an embarrassment of riches by comparison. They've at least had new physical dexes since then, and a fairly extensive plastic model range that you could mix-and-match with. I quite liked the 4th ed dex. Built a robust little renegade chapter force with it. I didn't take it to tournaments, but it was fun to play in pickup games. Since 6th ed dropped alone, Chaos players have gotten a codex, Black Legion, Khorne Daemonkin, and Traitor's Hate. Sisters players have had the stale digital dex. Right when Chaos players are gleefully celebrating Traitor Legions, Imperial Agents drops. GW could have taken the opportunity to give Sisters the rules update they need so badly. Instead, they get a worse set of rules - no Celestine. Not even a good meta-formation - instead Sisters get a worse version of a CAD. Then the Celestine model gets pulled. Sisters players had every reason to assume they were getting the shaft from GW yet again.

So, any Chaos players who are comparing their woes to what Sisters players have been going through can shut the feth up. GW has at least been trying to give Chaos players something new. They may have gone about it in a clueless, bungling fashion, but Chaos players have at least not been completely ignored by the company. They've been getting new product, and most of the range is in plastic.. Imperial Agents being so bad when Traitor Legions is so good is salt in the wound for Sisters players.

A few Sisters players have voiced their displeasure in Chaos threads? The situation is kind of like having your neighbor celebrate winning the lottery when you've just been told you have terminal cancer. You might then understand how they might be inclined to be wet blankets.

FInally, Sisters players have every reason to be jaded and suspicious. If you beat a dog every day for ten years, then one day pet the dog and give him treats, the dog isn't going to simply accept this as the new normal right away. We've seen the new Celestine and her Seraphim bodyguards, but we have no way of knowing they are anything other than a token effort for the upcoming 13th Black Crusade release, with Celestine intended to get murdered by Abaddon to up the drama. Sisters players are completely justified in being skeptical until we see pictures of new plastic Sisters models. So, stop pointing to the new Celestine and saying "See, it's all going to be better now", because history is on the side of skepticism on this one.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

A few Sisters players have voiced their displeasure in Chaos threads? The situation is kind of like having your neighbor celebrate winning the lottery when you've just been told you have terminal cancer. You might then understand how they might be inclined to be wet blankets.

So how many levels of irony is it for a Dark Angels player to be complaining about CSM players in a Sisters thread?

Did we literally go to a new level from this alone?

So I guess I'm a book 40k nerd? I also love playing sisters.

In like 80% of cases in the books/canon the sisters USUALLY take everyone with them.

Like it's not even a surprise anymore:
-In the black templar novels the sisters hold off to the last person taking a massive ork invasion down.
-In the comics, literally an entire group of them get enslaved to a daemon for 100 years, and even then they resist until their destruction and screw over the daemon prince when the inquisition/saint take it down.
-In the red/black novels they manage hold off the enemy forces so that a single sister can escape with the item the chaos dudes are looking for.

It is their "thing", humanity is CONSTANTLY over-run with no resistance.

What sets the sisters apart is IF you try to take the planet/city/whatever they are on, you are GOING to get a hell of a fight. Like it's not even a troupe, they will literally smash the hell out of anything trying to fight them before they all die.

*Edit: What is hilarious is when I play it's usually the same situation, they go until the last turn and all die, but the person I'm playing is sweating bullets the entire time due to their tenacity. (Those 6++ saves always seem to happen when I most need them lol.)

 koooaei wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:


Try leaving the goalposts alone. Nobody made that assertion. The assertion is that SoB players don't get sympathy because they derail discussion about any other factions model line into a discussion about how "Sisters have been mistreated", exactly what you're doing here.

You, uh... might want to read the title of the thread you're posting in.

REVENGE

Exalted! lol

I am one of those who thinks the Sisters of Battle have been neglected and want to see new models. I am also skeptical about announcements and will believe it when I see it. I know Sisters are not the only range that have been neglected, people have mentioned Dark Eldar and Chaos Space Marines.

My view is that GW should spend more time doing things for these factions: Sisters, Dark Eldar, Chaos Space Marines the already established factions before going out and creating a new one. They let these groups sit for years without any improvement and instead roll out a new factions like Deathwatch: Mechanicus, Skittari and Imperial Knights. I fear that these new groups will probably be neglected and left to stagnate like the Sisters and instead of supporting and expanding them, GW will instead choose to create yet another newer faction.

 sfshilo wrote:
So I guess I'm a book 40k nerd? I also love playing sisters.

In like 80% of cases in the books/canon the sisters USUALLY take everyone with them.

Like it's not even a surprise anymore:
-In the black templar novels the sisters hold off to the last person taking a massive ork invasion down.
-In the comics, literally an entire group of them get enslaved to a daemon for 100 years, and even then they resist until their destruction and screw over the daemon prince when the inquisition/saint take it down.
-In the red/black novels they manage hold off the enemy forces so that a single sister can escape with the item the chaos dudes are looking for.

It is their "thing", humanity is CONSTANTLY over-run with no resistance.

What sets the sisters apart is IF you try to take the planet/city/whatever they are on, you are GOING to get a hell of a fight. Like it's not even a troupe, they will literally smash the hell out of anything trying to fight them before they all die.

*Edit: What is hilarious is when I play it's usually the same situation, they go until the last turn and all die, but the person I'm playing is sweating bullets the entire time due to their tenacity. (Those 6++ saves always seem to happen when I most need them lol.)

That's awesome. More of that theme of tenacity, please!

Haha oh wow - so SoB fans should be thankful for 13 years of no releases because the result is a consistent model range. Amazing.

The other "argument" seems to be: you guys got four new figures, be happy already! This totally ignores that many SoB fans are really happy about these new figures. But unsurprisingly, they don't cover 13 years of neglect. Or did you seriously think the only thing we could ever want is a resin Canoness plus a plastic special character and her two-figure retinue?

To be clear - the point is not that CSM shouldn't get new models, or that whatever other faction shouldn't get new models. The point is, SoB also need some new models.

On top of that, this thread is not even about the lack of support for Sisters ... it's about the tendency to throw them under the bus in the fluff for the sake of glorifying the precious, precious Space Marines. I am aware that IG and non-IoM factions often get the same treatment. It is no less annoying when the only reason a CSM storyline exists is so that the SM can triumph (or, almost as bad, when some loser Chapter is invented to get smacked so the popular ones remain unscathed).

What I'd really like to see is a story or campaign where the IG or a Space Marine chapter is in a tight spot, and Sisters save the day. Take the upcoming 13thBC, for instance. It would be badass if, say, Creed went down, the Cadian resistance was about to buckle, and Celestine shows up to rally the defenders into a fighting retreat instead of a complete rout. Or, Helbrecht gets ripped apart, but Celestine shows up to rally the Black Templars to a counterattack that buys time for something that slows down Abaddon. Something along those lines would be cool.

I've never said Sisters shouldn't get new models.

But at the same time, I've pointed out that Sisters would benefit greatly from a Grey Knight style release - 1-2 boxes would literally cover more than half their range, considering their aesthetic and the fact that a base Sister in Power Armour is like 90% of your army.

But at the same time a lot of Sisters players want a Dark Eldar scale rework. Take this from a Chaos player - you don't want constant staggered releases otherwise your army will start looking like a hot mess.

Please note - Sisters players have this habit of wandering into 80% of the threads and stirring up a gakfest about their army. End of the day, people are tired of it. Even more so when you realise that all the rumour folks were saying late January-February and you're all flipping tables in December.

Real talk time - Imperial Agents is much like Traitor Legions was - a consolidation of all the digital supplements, campaign supplements and dataslates in a single product.

Do I feel it was perhaps a bit rushed? Maybe. But the Warhammer Live video was stressing the fact next year is 40k's 30th anniversary. So perhaps it makes sense to get those two books out beforehand so they can focus on the planned campaign and storyline progression itself.

Are Space Marines GW's Mary-Sue? Yes.

But let's be real here - they're by far the easiest range to assemble, easiest range to paint and easiest range to play. Their stats aren't complicated, their special rules make them disregard the more complicated aspects of the game and their very image is a key part of 40k's IP. A GW Space Marine is a very, very distinct thing in its appearance and is a sort of brand recognition by itself.

Hell, the Space Marines are integral to 30k as well - you know, that series of books BL are producing that is actually doing rather well.

So yes, they will pamper them. They will preen them. They will heap love and glory on them. If you're honestly surprised by that then I'll be straight up and call you a fething idiot.

It's the same reason Cygnar and Cryx get so much love in Warmachine. It's the same reason that 'feature' ships are artificially better in X-Wing compared to less known, less prominent background ships. It's all to do with brand recognition and their borderline paranoia with regards to their IP.

Yea, verily, ya'll want a series of books where Sisters are not punching bags or sacrificial fodder. That will never happen in 40k.

Black Library on the other hand? Well, there was the Faith and Fire series and that was okay in itself. But the same could be said of the Night Lords and Word Bearers trilogies.

The other reason Sisters aren't being thrust so openly into the limelight? Their theme has very, very strong religious nods to it. They are carrying around their equivalent of crosses and rosary beads. They're literal Nuns with guns. And religion is a mighty uncomfortable subject for a company to throw in the limelight simply because of how people will react - you'd get both sides attacking them over it and that would not be good in the slightest.

Non-Imperial factions regularly get crapped on in 40k's background. Chaos are literally a 10,000 year old punching bag that GW seem to want to wander between genuine malice and THE EVULZ.

I can't recall Orks actually having any sort of meaningful success...ever.

Tyranids are there for the bug hunt trope - because it gets really uncomfortable pushing forward the wholesale slaughter of an intelligent species.

And Eldar? Well, let's be frank. Elves in Space. There's that Trope covered.

At this point in time the rules are also incredibly distant from the fluff as well and, well GW don't exactly care too much about who dies and who doesn't.

I doubt we're going to see an AoS scale nuke of 40k starting with the Sisters. If anything it looks like they're probably going to make the setting go from 5 Minutes to Midnight on the Doomsday Clock to 4 Minutes to Midnight.

Please try to resist making idiotic arguments on behalf of others. No one here is surprised that GW coddles the SM. The point is, it's overdone. It's boring. It's poor storytelling. It doesn't even make the SM more interesting or special; it just diminishes the brand of every other faction. In a word, it's a dumb way to sell models and GW is just beginning to come out of its decade-long stupidity coma. GW is just beginning to show an interest in what its customers think and want. So now is the time to say, YES making new Sisters models is great THANK YOU and NO PLEASE don't undermine the faction by continuing along with this moronic trope of SM needing to rescue or clean up after the Sisters.

 Manchu wrote:
Please try to resist making idiotic arguments on behalf of others. No one here is surprised that GW coddles the SM. The point is, it's overdone. It's boring. It's poor storytelling. It doesn't even make the SM more interesting or special; it just diminishes the brand of every other faction. In a word, it's a dumb way to sell models and GW is just beginning to come out of its decade-long stupidity coma. GW is just beginning to show an interest in what its customers think and want. So now is the time to say, YES making new Sisters models is great THANK YOU and NO PLEASE don't undermine the faction by continuing along with this moronic trope of SM needing to rescue or clean up after the Sisters.

I don't think it's idiotic, I think it's a damn relevant point that hey, guess what, Sisters of Battle, just like the Guard, Orks, CSM, Tau, etc. are just foils to the poster boy that is the Space Marine. Does it suck you guys haven't been getting updated releases? Yeah, but that's typical for any army not Space Marines. Hell, Daemons are only now just getting some new plastic monstrous creatures. Some of those models are editions old as well.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Some of those models are editions old as well.

Oh some of them are? Quelle domage.

Also, I don't think you quite understand the conversation - DarkStarSabre and I both agree - and you seem to agree as well - that it would be dumb to be surprised that GW showers the SM with praise and glory. My point was, no one is surprised by that. But the obvious reasoning doesn't make it any better.

 Manchu wrote:
Please try to resist making idiotic arguments on behalf of others.

Irony is delicious.

No one here is surprised that GW coddles the SM.

Really? What was the point of this entire thread then? If you're not surprised then why are you going on about it? It's been a staple approach they have taken for YEARS. They're not going to stop and go 'Oh feth, the Sisters players at Dakka are upset, we better change our approach to this.' No chance in hell mate.

The point is, it's overdone. It's boring.

Just like every other SoB complaint, rant or derailing on this forum. Huh.

It's poor storytelling. It doesn't even make the SM more interesting or special; it just diminishes the brand of every other faction.

You ever wonder why fairytales all follow the same sort of pattern? Why mythology has a similar approach? Why so many movies, TV series and books have the same boring and poor approach? Because it works. It may not appeal to you. But if it ain't broke they're not going to fix it. It still hooks in new players. It still establishes the SM as the Ultimate Good Guys. It still supports their IP. It's a tried and tested method - the whole damsel in distress approach. Going back thousands of years in human history...it's there. It's a pretty gakky approach, sure, but it's one that works and that is exactly why they do it.

In a word, it's a dumb way to sell models

It's worked up til now.

and GW is just beginning to come out of its decade-long stupidity coma. GW is just beginning to show an interest in what its customers think and want.

Six to one, half a dozen to the other. They're making concessions, I'll give them that. But for all Traitor Legions' good points it still uses the core CSM codex - which is still horrendously overpointed, has inflated unit costs based on a random table and some of the most asinine rules I've ever seen. What its customers wanted here was a new Codex. We got a compromise.

Sisters got a compromise with IA - you got your rules in hardback format. You got them all in one place with a detachment to boot. A compromise, considering that TL and IA were also GW's way of trimming down supplementary and digital materials.

So now is the time to say, YES making new Sisters models is great THANK YOU and NO PLEASE don't undermine the faction by continuing along with this moronic trope of SM needing to rescue or clean up after the Sisters.

Thing is - this happens on a regular basis. Because the Sisters are more often than not the FIRST real line of defense for a planet. The covenant stationed there is the first defense and when they go dark the Imperium sends other forces in. This is an unfortunate part of the way they are established in the setting.

HOWEVER, take note of the artwork shown recently - it shows Celestine at the head of a host. It shows her alongside the Black Templars - a chapter known for aggressively taking the initiative. This does not imply that the Sisters done fethed up and the Imperium is cleaning up. This implies that the Sisters and Templars are the forces being sent in as a counter-attack. As a crusade.

Even the Shield of Baal supplements did the Sisters some good - yeah, they had to be bailed out. But they continued fighting until the very end. Which, as someone said a few posts back is the Sisters' way.

If you're not surprised then why are you going on about it?

Are you really having trouble distinguishing between someone being surprised at X versus someone objecting to X?

Let's just start there, I guess.

I take it back, I do hope Sisters got squatted. It'd be a merciful end rather than them dragging this out for editions to come.

 Manchu wrote:

If you're not surprised then why are you going on about it?

Are you really having trouble distinguishing between someone being surprised at X versus someone objecting to X?

Let's just start there, I guess.

No. I'm failing to see the point of it. You can object to it without turning it into the same old gakfest that these forums see on every other Rumour thread or every other discussion thread from Sisters. But hey, if you did that we wouldn't be here now, would we?

I feel this is a suitable image for exactly what you are doing.

In short, you're venting. That's great. Wonderful. Fantastic. Why are the rest of us being subjected to this again?

Worry about Sisters being marginalized this story seems a bit premature when the one bit of art we have on Cadia so far is Celestine blowing a hole in a Greater Demon whilst descending at the head of an entire army of Seraphim.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Why are the rest of us being subjected to this again?

I see. So you just don't understand how a forum works. Reading and posting in a thread are completely voluntary. No one is forcing you to have this discussion. Even when SoB fans complain in "muh Chaos thread" you don't have to read their posts, much less respond to them. You see, this whole time you have chosen to get into the very discussion you claim is such a terrible burden on you. So go now, be free! You were only ever a prisoner in the salt mine of your own building.

TheTuninator wrote:
Worry about Sisters being marginalized this story seems a bit premature when the one bit of art we have on Cadia so far is Celestine blowing a hole in a Greater Demon whilst descending at the head of an entire army of Seraphim.

Someone gets it. Look at the art people. What we've seen so far doesn't say the Sisters need help.

It says that they are the help.

TheTuninator wrote:
Worry about Sisters being marginalized this story seems a bit premature when the one bit of art we have on Cadia so far is Celestine blowing a hole in a Greater Demon whilst descending at the head of an entire army of Seraphim.

But its the End Times of 40k, 40k is going to get Sigmarized!!

/s

TheTuninator wrote:
Worry about Sisters being marginalized this story seems a bit premature when the one bit of art we have on Cadia so far is Celestine blowing a hole in a Greater Demon whilst descending at the head of an entire army of Seraphim.

I don't know how it can be premature when I am referencing considerably over a decade of the same stuff. And keep in mind that we are talking about Sisters' role in defending Cadia in a book called "the Fall of Cadia."

Let's just refresh our memories about the OP - I did NOT say "GW will feth over Sisters yet again" - I DID say, "please GW do not feth over Sisters yet again."

 Manchu wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Why are the rest of us being subjected to this again?

I see. So you just don't understand how a forum works. Reading and posting in a thread are completely voluntary. No one is forcing you to have this discussion. Even when SoB fans complain in "muh Chaos thread" you don't have to read their posts, much less respond to them. You see, this whole time you have chosen to get into the very discussion you claim is such a terrible burden on you. So go now, be free! You were only ever a prisoner in the salt mine of your own building.

Might I recommend for you then...Tumblr? Or even Facebook? Is Myspace still around? What about Livejournal?

Because, a lot of these threads are posted, in general for discussion. Not for adamant pity parties from the same salty subsection of the forum that less than a few weeks ago was so god damned toxic that one of the guys giving us the leaks had said elsewhere that he was reluctant to give out any information here because of the abuse he had received previously from them.

I mean, hey, you made a guy who spilled the beans - quite reliably and quite on point - say 'Feth Dakka, they're bloody nasty there.'

And someone else has already pointed out that your worries are remarkably premature - you're worrying about your faction being damsels in distress in need of rescue when the imagery we've seen of them so far shows them doing the rescuing with minimal distress.

A discussion forum is for ... discussion! Believe it or not. Only one of the two of us is objecting to this being a discussion, DarkStarSabre. And it ain't me.

 Manchu wrote:

TheTuninator wrote:
Worry about Sisters being marginalized this story seems a bit premature when the one bit of art we have on Cadia so far is Celestine blowing a hole in a Greater Demon whilst descending at the head of an entire army of Seraphim.

I don't know how it can be premature when I am referencing considerably over a decade of the same stuff. And keep in mind that we are talking about Sisters' role in defending Cadia in a book called "the Fall of Cadia."

We also are talking about Sisters' role in defending Cadia(and maybe more, since the warzone/campaign books aren't necessarily relegated to a single planet) as part of a book called "Fall of Cadia", which is the opening volume in a series called "Gathering Storm".

We get it though. Sisters have been marginalized. But realistically, the same damn thing could be said about Wood Elves before The End Times of WHFB...where they ended up playing a relatively significant role.

 Manchu wrote:
A discussion forum is for ... discussion! Believe it or not. Only one of the two of us is objecting to this being a discussion, DarkStarSabre. And it ain't me.

And yet when there is discussion - you immediately go on the defensive. Adorable.

And who said I was objecting to the discussion. I am objecting to the same old tired whine that bleeds over into multiple threads on a regular basis.

While you are apparently counting chickens before they hatch and believing your army is in dire straits in a campaign supplement's fluff despite all evidence available at the moment showing otherwise.

Hmmm.

 Kanluwen wrote:
We get it though. Sisters have been marginalized. But realistically, the same damn thing could be said about Wood Elves before The End Times of WHFB...where they ended up playing a relatively significant role.

Kan, I definitely believe that GW can turn a corner on these issues. I think that has already begun! This thread is about hoping GW continue to go in that direction, specifically regarding Sisters of Battle.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
who said I was objecting to the discussion. I am objecting to the same old tired whine that bleeds over into multiple threads on a regular basis.

So you aren't objecting to the discussion, you are simply objecting to the discussion. Got it.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
A discussion forum is for ... discussion! Believe it or not. Only one of the two of us is objecting to this being a discussion, DarkStarSabre. And it ain't me.

And yet when there is discussion - you immediately go on the defensive. Adorable.

And who said I was objecting to the discussion. I am objecting to the same old tired whine that bleeds over into multiple threads on a regular basis.

While you are apparently counting chickens before they hatch and believing your army is in dire straits in a campaign supplement's fluff despite all evidence available at the moment showing otherwise.

Hmmm.

To be fair to Manchu GW's recent fluff has been fairly consistent. Chaos Space Marine kills population. X Imperial faction comes in. X Imperial faction loses and/or gets wiped to a man. Space Marine chapter of the day comes in and saves x Imperial faction. Space Marines have some token victory while Chaos runs off into the night cackling like a Saturday morning cartoon villain.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
A discussion forum is for ... discussion! Believe it or not. Only one of the two of us is objecting to this being a discussion, DarkStarSabre. And it ain't me.

And yet when there is discussion - you immediately go on the defensive. Adorable.

And who said I was objecting to the discussion. I am objecting to the same old tired whine that bleeds over into multiple threads on a regular basis.

While you are apparently counting chickens before they hatch and believing your army is in dire straits in a campaign supplement's fluff despite all evidence available at the moment showing otherwise.

Hmmm.

To be fair to Manchu GW's recent fluff has been fairly consistent. Chaos Space Marine kills population. X Imperial faction comes in. X Imperial faction loses and/or gets wiped to a man. Space Marine chapter of the day comes in and save x Imperial faction. Space Marine has some token victory while Chaos runs off into the night cackling like a Saturday morning cartoon villain.

Sorry, but did you read the Damocles Gulf stuff? Shield of Baal?

Because that's not even remotely 'consistent' with what happens.

It might be consistent with CSM as the enemy, but there's more than just CSM.

Exactly TheCustomLime - it's not just a problem Sisters fans face. It is just as gakky when it happens to CSM. I am actually hoping Abaddon blows the gak out of Cadia for this very reason. The thing I'm not looking forward to is SoB being the losers here, like GW brought them back just to make them lose. I feel this concern could also apply to the Black Templars.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
A discussion forum is for ... discussion! Believe it or not. Only one of the two of us is objecting to this being a discussion, DarkStarSabre. And it ain't me.

And yet when there is discussion - you immediately go on the defensive. Adorable.

And who said I was objecting to the discussion. I am objecting to the same old tired whine that bleeds over into multiple threads on a regular basis.

While you are apparently counting chickens before they hatch and believing your army is in dire straits in a campaign supplement's fluff despite all evidence available at the moment showing otherwise.

Hmmm.

To be fair to Manchu GW's recent fluff has been fairly consistent. Chaos Space Marine kills population. X Imperial faction comes in. X Imperial faction loses and/or gets wiped to a man. Space Marine chapter of the day comes in and save x Imperial faction. Space Marine has some token victory while Chaos runs off into the night cackling like a Saturday morning cartoon villain.

Sorry, but did you read the Damocles Gulf stuff? Shield of Baal?

Because that's not even remotely 'consistent' with what happens.

It might be consistent with CSM as the enemy, but there's more than just CSM.

Ah, right. Then it's Imperium gets ass kicked, Space Marines have some token victory and the Imperium shrinks just a little more.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
A discussion forum is for ... discussion! Believe it or not. Only one of the two of us is objecting to this being a discussion, DarkStarSabre. And it ain't me.

And yet when there is discussion - you immediately go on the defensive. Adorable.

And who said I was objecting to the discussion. I am objecting to the same old tired whine that bleeds over into multiple threads on a regular basis.

While you are apparently counting chickens before they hatch and believing your army is in dire straits in a campaign supplement's fluff despite all evidence available at the moment showing otherwise.

Hmmm.

To be fair to Manchu GW's recent fluff has been fairly consistent. Chaos Space Marine kills population. X Imperial faction comes in. X Imperial faction loses and/or gets wiped to a man. Space Marine chapter of the day comes in and save x Imperial faction. Space Marine has some token victory while Chaos runs off into the night cackling like a Saturday morning cartoon villain.

Sorry, but did you read the Damocles Gulf stuff? Shield of Baal?

Because that's not even remotely 'consistent' with what happens.

It might be consistent with CSM as the enemy, but there's more than just CSM.

Ah, right. Then it's Imperium gets ass kicked, Space Marines have some token victory and the Imperium shrinks just a little more.

Damocles--Raven Guard lose their Chapter Master, two Chapters(White Scars and Raven Guard) get stomped all over the place and the only 'victory' the Imperium have is that as they pull out of the Gulf they set it ablaze as a giant middle finger to the Tau.
Imperial Guard basically get roflstomped as well.

Tau casualties?
Aun'va killed by a Culexus Assassin(one of four Assassins tasked with going after Aun'va, Shadowsun, and Farsight--the remaining three all died and failed their missions. Vindicare who went after Farsight got killed by Darkstrider, Eversor who went after Farsight got killed by Farsight and maybe scratched the paint on his suit, the Callidus who went after Shadowsun got killed by what was effectively a 'named' Pathfinder Shas'ui.). Aun'va's death is ignored since they just replace him with a hologram.
Shas'ui Starbreeze. A Pathfinder Shas'ui literally introduced to die defending Shadowsun.

 Manchu wrote:

TheTuninator wrote:
Worry about Sisters being marginalized this story seems a bit premature when the one bit of art we have on Cadia so far is Celestine blowing a hole in a Greater Demon whilst descending at the head of an entire army of Seraphim.

I don't know how it can be premature when I am referencing considerably over a decade of the same stuff. And keep in mind that we are talking about Sisters' role in defending Cadia in a book called "the Fall of Cadia."

Let's just refresh our memories about the OP - I did NOT say "GW will feth over Sisters yet again" - I DID say, "please GW do not feth over Sisters yet again."

As much as I love the Sisters, they aren't the faction whose fans need to worry about jobbing in the fall of Cadia. Celestine will assuredly be a tremendous presence in the story.

Guard fans are the ones who should be worried, and for good reason. No world sits closer to the beating heart of IG than Cadia. The Guard failing to hold Cadia would be like the Sisters losing Ophelia or the Ultras losing Macragge, and yet Sisters and BT seem set to form the linchpin of the defense.

By rights, this should be the Guard's moment in the sun, even in failure, and I hope to see the story deliver on that.

TheTruinator, that is a good point and I think there is definitely a lot for people who like IG - as opposed to "Tempestus Scions" or whatever - to be concerned about since Cadia is the home of the previous concept of the IG, which perhaps is on the way out. OTOH, I am hoping this means there will be some new "standard" IG trooper kits on the horizon. The current plastic IG ("Cadians") really need refreshing.

Completely agreed. I would love to see Guard come out of this with some more weather-beaten, hard-bitten Cadians, plus maybe plastics for one or two other regiments.

 Manchu wrote:
TheTruinator, that is a good point and I think there is definitely a lot for people who like IG - as opposed to "Tempestus Scions" or whatever - to be concerned about since Cadia is the home of the previous concept of the IG, which perhaps is on the way out. OTOH, I am hoping this means there will be some new "standard" IG trooper kits on the horizon. The current plastic IG ("Cadians") really need refreshing.

Manchu, I highly doubt that. For 4 pages now, it's been all about SoB need to be updated, refreshed, touted about as the warrior supremes, and now you're saying the IG deserve some recognition. Your OP mentions nothing of the Guard, even though the book that supposedly brings the Sisters doom is called the Fall of Cadia, one of the Guards' major homeworlds. That's pretty scummy.

 jreilly89 wrote:
That's pretty scummy.

LOL no. My posts have consistently advocated for new Sisters stuff in addition to rather than instead of and treating all the factions, not just Sisters, more evenly in the fluff.

Post 1:

... get crushed by Chaos at Cadia?

First off - I love the new kit with Celestine and her Seraphim Guard ... but I wouldn't be a true Sisters fan if I didn't have ... concerns ... about something. And here's what concerns me, aside from still needing to SEE some more plastic Sisters kits: SoB have way too often been the whipping girls for the various enemies of Mankind. The Sisters make a valiant, self-sacrificial last stand against hopeless odds ... in essence, they get Worfed so that whatever flavor of SM shows up to actually save the day gets to really bask in the limelight. It's ... frustrating.

So here is my plea to GW - please please please do not make (or do not have made) Saint Celestine and the SoB the fall girls of Gathering Storm and beyond!

Post 2:

No one here is surprised that GW coddles the SM. The point is, it's overdone. It's boring. It's poor storytelling. It doesn't even make the SM more interesting or special; it just diminishes the brand of every other faction. In a word, it's a dumb way to sell models and GW is just beginning to come out of its decade-long stupidity coma. GW is just beginning to show an interest in what its customers think and want. So now is the time to say, YES making new Sisters models is great THANK YOU and NO PLEASE don't undermine the faction by continuing along with this moronic trope of SM needing to rescue or clean up after the Sisters.

Nothing about this says anything about IG, DE, Orks, or any other faction. It's literally just "Pay attention to MY army!"

For your convenience:

 Manchu wrote:
To be clear - the point is not that CSM shouldn't get new models, or that whatever other faction shouldn't get new models. The point is, SoB also need some new models.

 Manchu wrote:
It is no less annoying when the only reason a CSM storyline exists is so that the SM can triumph

 Manchu wrote:
Exactly TheCustomLime - it's not just a problem Sisters fans face. It is just as gakky when it happens to CSM. I am actually hoping Abaddon blows the gak out of Cadia for this very reason. The thing I'm not looking forward to is SoB being the losers here, like GW brought them back just to make them lose. I feel this concern could also apply to the Black Templars.

And then:

 Manchu wrote:
I am hoping this means there will be some new "standard" IG trooper kits on the horizon. The current plastic IG ("Cadians") really need refreshing.

I'm out, enjoy your Sisters' pity party. Bemoan the fact you're actually getting new releases. That'll encourage GW to pay attention to Sisters' again. /s

TheTuninator wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

TheTuninator wrote:
Worry about Sisters being marginalized this story seems a bit premature when the one bit of art we have on Cadia so far is Celestine blowing a hole in a Greater Demon whilst descending at the head of an entire army of Seraphim.

I don't know how it can be premature when I am referencing considerably over a decade of the same stuff. And keep in mind that we are talking about Sisters' role in defending Cadia in a book called "the Fall of Cadia."

Let's just refresh our memories about the OP - I did NOT say "GW will feth over Sisters yet again" - I DID say, "please GW do not feth over Sisters yet again."

As much as I love the Sisters, they aren't the faction whose fans need to worry about jobbing in the fall of Cadia. Celestine will assuredly be a tremendous presence in the story.

Guard fans are the ones who should be worried, and for good reason. No world sits closer to the beating heart of IG than Cadia. The Guard failing to hold Cadia would be like the Sisters losing Ophelia or the Ultras losing Macragge, and yet Sisters and BT seem set to form the linchpin of the defense.

By rights, this should be the Guard's moment in the sun, even in failure, and I hope to see the story deliver on that.

I hate to break it to you, but the overarching tone of this story's already been written.

Us Guard will lose Cadia. But it ain't over till we're over. Cadians are everywhere. Remember that Cadian Shock Troops, as a Regiment, are just those raised from Cadia herself. There's a whole damn star system full of men and women descended from the same stock, with the same training and equipment. And those men and women have settled elsewhere too. They're serving elsewhere too.

I'm going to quote from "The 13th Black Crusade" book that Black Library published after the campaign.

Ursukar Creed wrote:
Soldiers, I speak to you to tell you to keep faith with the God-Emperor. We have a sacred duty greater than any of us. We are Cadians, we bar the gate to hell; if it is breached, we will seal it.

Wherever you are, recruit, recruit and train. Seek out pious men and bring them under your colours. While the Shock Troops march toward Cadia hope remains. Know that we will never cease the fight while our world lies desecrated and burned. March on my soldiers, march on, till we are together again, tomorrow, on Cadia.

I fully expect Cadia to fall or become a guerrilla campaign.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Bemoan the fact you're actually getting new releases.

Actually reading the posts can be tremendously helpful:

 Manchu wrote:
First off - I love the new kit with Celestine and her Seraphim Guard

 Manchu wrote:
now is the time to say, YES making new Sisters models is great THANK YOU

 Pouncey wrote:
Or would you like me to link you the post where I react to the Celestine photo after having seen it for the first time?

 Pouncey wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/711521.page#9089038

You may notice a level of enthusiam and excitement and happiness in that post which you typically do not associate with me.

Also my reactions to the new models from the N&R thread:

 Manchu wrote:
I have been waiting for this for a long, long time and GW has not disappointed! St Celestine and here Seraphim guards look AMAZING! Cannot wait to get them. Wow painting those long trailing scrolls is pretty intimidating however!

 Manchu wrote:
Wow I am so happy with St Celestine and those Seraphim, I like them more every time I see them. Didn't realize how worried I was that GW would sweep them aside or redesign them into something unrecognizable. But here they are and they look exactly right.

 Manchu wrote:

 pretre wrote:
I do like that they didn't redo the aesthetic, but kept it largely with where we were just better.

This x1000000000 and more, all the way around. Great job GW!

 Manchu wrote:

Davor wrote:
all this time waiting was expecting something more epic

I'm actually very thankful GW did not go too far here. Her wings are already huge, so I am glad they showed some restraint overall especially compared to some of the AoS stuff which, as techically masterful as it is, is sometimes a little bit busy.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
... get crushed by Chaos at Cadia?

First off - I love the new kit with Celestine and her Seraphim Guard ... but I wouldn't be a true Sisters fan if I didn't have ... concerns ... about something. And here's what concerns me, aside from still needing to SEE some more plastic Sisters kits: SoB have way too often been the whipping girls for the various enemies of Mankind. The Sisters make a valiant, self-sacrificial last stand against hopeless odds ... in essence, they get Worfed so that whatever flavor of SM shows up to actually save the day gets to really bask in the limelight. It's ... frustrating.

So here is my plea to GW - please please please do not make (or do not have made) Saint Celestine and the SoB the fall girls of Gathering Storm and beyond!

Just be glad you're getting a new codex and new models. I used to play fantasy when skaven still had an 8 page FAQ. Then we had End Times followed by AoS. I can't play 8th at the GW now and the FAQ isn't around anymore which helped tremendously.

I realize Sisters needed new stuff but at least you are getting new stuff. My game is dead and a couple armies got totally squatted (beastmen and bretonnia). Just realize you're getting something and accept it. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Oh and my first army was guard. They're the punching bags of 40k with space marines glory hogging the day for them every single time. Seriously in our 5th ed army book we only won about half the noted battles.

-------

Btw with the exception of End Times which wasn't a full blown army release (and we got only vermin lords and stormfiends which were good) we haven't had an update since probably '08. Also no AoS doesn't count. It didn't add both new models and new rules for an existing game. Most of the skaven model line remains the same since '08 or '09.

It'd probably help if you knew what armies actually got discontinued, namely the fact that it's Bretonnia and TOMB KINGS. Beastmen are both still sold, and infact getting old god specific Tzaangors by the dozen now, they are still within the fluff and enjoying themselves some conquest.

And even the discontinued armies are still given points and are allowed to play in Age of Sigmar.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
... get crushed by Chaos at Cadia?

First off - I love the new kit with Celestine and her Seraphim Guard ... but I wouldn't be a true Sisters fan if I didn't have ... concerns ... about something. And here's what concerns me, aside from still needing to SEE some more plastic Sisters kits: SoB have way too often been the whipping girls for the various enemies of Mankind. The Sisters make a valiant, self-sacrificial last stand against hopeless odds ... in essence, they get Worfed so that whatever flavor of SM shows up to actually save the day gets to really bask in the limelight. It's ... frustrating.

So here is my plea to GW - please please please do not make (or do not have made) Saint Celestine and the SoB the fall girls of Gathering Storm and beyond!

Just be glad you're getting a new codex and new models. I used to play fantasy when skaven still had an 8 page FAQ. Then we had End Times followed by AoS. I can't play 8th at the GW now and the FAQ isn't around anymore which helped tremendously.

I realize Sisters needed new stuff but at least you are getting new stuff. My game is dead and a couple armies got totally squatted (beastmen and bretonnia). Just realize you're getting something and accept it. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Oh and my first army was guard. They're the punching bags of 40k with space marines glory hogging the day for them every single time. Seriously in our 5th ed army book we only won about half the noted battles.

-------

Btw with the exception of End Times which wasn't a full blown army release (and we got only vermin lords and stormfiends which were good) we haven't had an update since probably '08. Also no AoS doesn't count. It didn't add both new models and new rules for an existing game. Most of the skaven model line remains the same since '08 or '09.

It'd probably help if you knew what armies actually got discontinued, namely the fact that it's Bretonnia and TOMB KINGS. Beastmen are both still sold, and infact getting old god specific Tzaangors by the dozen now, they are still within the fluff and enjoying themselves some conquest.

And even the discontinued armies are still given points and are allowed to play in Age of Sigmar.

I forgot because i haven't paid attention to Fantasy in GW since they rammed a middle finger up all Fantasy players butts. I care so little about AoS i forgot.

 jreilly89 wrote:
I'm out, enjoy your Sisters' pity party. Bemoan the fact you're actually getting new releases. That'll encourage GW to pay attention to Sisters' again. /s

I'm excited and happy, actually. I believe that the entire range will be updated over the course of 2017, because I can't fathom any reason why GW would stop the updates at two special characters. I know they haven't released EVERYTHING yet, but frankly, I'm not expecting them to, because GW's release strategy stopped being a huge flood of new kits in the first month at least a couple of years ago, and started being just small releases over long periods of time. I even think that's a better way to do it, because it spreads the releases over a long period of time, so players only have to spend their money on a couple of kits each month.

I mean, I don't even care what they do with the lore anymore, because if I wanted to read a good story, I wouldn't turn to WH40k anything, I'd go read a Baen sci-fi book and probably learn some things in the process. Also any canon they do write about the army literally does not affect my personal army, because my personal army's fanfiction makes them not part of the Imperium anymore.

Initially I was sad about Celestine not being in C:IA, but then I was like, "Wait, my not-Celestine is my least-favorite character in my fanfiction, why don't I just write her out of it entirely and make my HQ model my force's actual commander instead?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Bemoan the fact you're actually getting new releases.

Actually reading the posts can be tremendously helpful:

 Manchu wrote:
First off - I love the new kit with Celestine and her Seraphim Guard

 Manchu wrote:
now is the time to say, YES making new Sisters models is great THANK YOU

 Pouncey wrote:
Or would you like me to link you the post where I react to the Celestine photo after having seen it for the first time?

 Pouncey wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/711521.page#9089038

You may notice a level of enthusiam and excitement and happiness in that post which you typically do not associate with me.

Also my reactions to the new models from the N&R thread:

 Manchu wrote:
I have been waiting for this for a long, long time and GW has not disappointed! St Celestine and here Seraphim guards look AMAZING! Cannot wait to get them. Wow painting those long trailing scrolls is pretty intimidating however!

 Manchu wrote:
Wow I am so happy with St Celestine and those Seraphim, I like them more every time I see them. Didn't realize how worried I was that GW would sweep them aside or redesign them into something unrecognizable. But here they are and they look exactly right.

 Manchu wrote:

 pretre wrote:
I do like that they didn't redo the aesthetic, but kept it largely with where we were just better.

This x1000000000 and more, all the way around. Great job GW!

 Manchu wrote:

Davor wrote:
all this time waiting was expecting something more epic

I'm actually very thankful GW did not go too far here. Her wings are already huge, so I am glad they showed some restraint overall especially compared to some of the AoS stuff which, as techically masterful as it is, is sometimes a little bit busy.

Yeah, it's so weird how people who were unhappy and complained for years suddenly become happy and optimistic when you start giving them exactly what they wanted.

aside from still needing to SEE some more plastic Sisters kit

I'm pretty convinced this will won't happen anytime soon, if at all.

I think this new Celestine and the Seraphin guards are just a seperate set for the Fall of Cadia event and is not heralding a new Plastic SoB army. As a purely Sisters collector I'm more than happy to be proved wrong in this but I just don't think it's going to happen as the number of people who would collect Sisters is imo far too small to justify the set-up costs for GW.

I also don't think they will be a wipping boy for Cadia too, it sounds more like the entire Imperium is desperately defending such a strategically important world, and so some Sisters being there is just an obvious addition (Celestine being a small part of the reinforcements for defence).

Ultimately Celestine is a nice addition but not, in my view, a herald of a new SoB army.

 Priestess_Argent wrote:

I think this new Celestine and the Seraphin guards are just a seperate set for the Fall of Cadia event and is not heralding a new Plastic SoB army. As a purely Sisters collector I'm more than happy to be proved wrong in this but I just don't think it's going to happen as the number of people who would collect Sisters is imo far too small to justify the set-up costs for GW.

I think that's a justifiable suspicion, but GW has done whole army lists and ranges for more marginal forces in the pretty recent past - Militarum Tempestus and Harlequins spring to mind. Heck, Dark Eldar don't have that much more of an extensive range. Plus, there's a lot of room to come up with some new stuff.

Even if they kept the range the way it is, plastic kits wouldn't be an unreasonable investment, because GW wouldn't need too many. A kit for foot Sisters covers Command Squads, Celestians, Battle Sisters Squads, Dominions, and Retributors. Release a Rhino/Immolator kit - maybe if Sisters players are really lucky, it'll be an Immolator/Repressor kit. A kit for the Exorcist. A kit for Seraphim. Repentia can stay in pewter or resin. 4 Plastic kits can cover the entire range. GW could even cheap out and make it 3 by doing a combined Immolator/Exorcist kit - which at this point really only involves creating a new box. Maybe it'd be a little more involved if they make the Exorcist an all-plastic kit. Point is, it wouldn't actually take that much investment on GW's part.

Let's just address the real elephant in the room: if Sisters really go full plastic we won't have the ability to fight off bears using our army cases.

I have a feeling that Celestine is a Primarch equivalent model for all of the Imperials that wont get their own. And is not a herald of plastic sisters.

I don't know. I rather expect GW to push new stuff for Sisters first and then ride the hype train by updating the older stuff second.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Let's just address the real elephant in the room: if Sisters really go full plastic we won't have the ability to fight off bears using our army cases.

The easiest way to fight off a bear isn't clubbing it in the face, it's convincing it you're no longer a threat so it decides to wander off and go find food. I forget what the precise methodology there is, but if I lived somewhere that I fought bears often enough to choose my WH40k army around it, I'd probably look it up. Also I'd probably get a permit to carry a shotgun, explaining my reasoning for needing such a high-powered weapon as, "Bear attacks are a frequent problem in my life."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I don't know. I rather expect GW to push new stuff for Sisters first and then ride the hype train by updating the older stuff second.

So long as it all gets updated relatively quickly, I don't care what order they do it in. I'd have wait for some parts of the range anyways, and I'm in it for the long haul so waiting a year or two to get everything is fine with me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
I have a feeling that Celestine is a Primarch equivalent model for all of the Imperials that wont get their own. And is not a herald of plastic sisters.

If the other factions need a Primarch equivalent, they'd just get a big, honkin' vehicle.

Like a Baneblade or Titan.

Which they already have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Priestess_Argent wrote:

aside from still needing to SEE some more plastic Sisters kit

I'm pretty convinced this will won't happen anytime soon, if at all.

I think this new Celestine and the Seraphin guards are just a seperate set for the Fall of Cadia event and is not heralding a new Plastic SoB army. As a purely Sisters collector I'm more than happy to be proved wrong in this but I just don't think it's going to happen as the number of people who would collect Sisters is imo far too small to justify the set-up costs for GW.

I also don't think they will be a wipping boy for Cadia too, it sounds more like the entire Imperium is desperately defending such a strategically important world, and so some Sisters being there is just an obvious addition (Celestine being a small part of the reinforcements for defence).

Ultimately Celestine is a nice addition but not, in my view, a herald of a new SoB army.

I honestly can't fault you for being skeptical and preferring to wait for the squad kits to become available.

I just don't agree. But that's fine, my opinion that more kits are coming is purely an assumption that makes sense to me, and I don't expect anyone else to agree if they have doubts.

The joke was the army won't be heavy enough to give a bear a concussion.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The joke was the army won't be heavy enough to give a bear a concussion.

That's an upside rather than a downside for me, personally.

 Pouncey wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The joke was the army won't be heavy enough to give a bear a concussion.

That's an upside rather than a downside for me, personally.

Given that we're probably going to be keeping our old pewter-brick-stapled-to-a-plastic-Rhino Exorcists (because they're fantastic) the army might remain heavy enough to give a smaller animal a concussion. Perhaps a hostile dog.

Damn right those exorcists are fantastic, they're the only Imperial vehicle capable of doing wheelies which automatically makes them the most awesome.

 n0t_u wrote:
Damn right those exorcists are fantastic, they're the only Imperial vehicle capable of doing wheelies which automatically makes them the most awesome.

Tauroses (the FW dunebuggies, not the silly multi-tracked MRAP things with an 'x' in their name) can definitely do wheelies, but they aren't covered in baroque murals and topped with a pipe organ, so they've got to come second.

I meant physically and by themselves as well.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The joke was the army won't be heavy enough to give a bear a concussion.

That's an upside rather than a downside for me, personally.

Given that we're probably going to be keeping our old pewter-brick-stapled-to-a-plastic-Rhino Exorcists (because they're fantastic) the army might remain heavy enough to give a smaller animal a concussion. Perhaps a hostile dog.

I'm pretty sure an average human could swing a completely empty model case fast enough to kill a human with repeated blows to the head. Yes, a human could fight back to stop you from hitting them. So could a bear.

Am I the only one who uses soft cases?

 Lansirill wrote:
Am I the only one who uses soft cases?

So then it depends on your particular case. Some people use soft cases. Some people use hard plastic ones like GW makes. Others use high-end aluminum ones.

Ok so dakka was all salty bout chaos players complaining that their army was trash and making fun of them. I mean they did have a good reason to complain.

Now that chaos is half decent I guess people decided they need to pick on somrbody else and nominated the SoB players? I mean some of them are insane complainers that explecitaly needs to say he plays sob in every thread in existence and in my opinion is the god of trolling dakka because I fail to see how someone could be that annoying without being a complete troll master. Other the x person why peeps be bashing da sisers yo.

Be glad they got something. I'm damn happy chaos, sisters and inq are gettig dome sweet loving. Anyways thats my 2 cents.

 drunken0elf wrote:
Ok so dakka was all salty bout chaos players complaining that their army was trash and making fun of them. I mean they did have a good reason to complain.

Now that chaos is half decent I guess people decided they need to pick on somrbody else and nominated the SoB players? I mean some of them are insane complainers that explecitaly needs to say he plays sob in every thread in existence and in my opinion is the god of trolling dakka because I fail to see how someone could be that annoying without being a complete troll master. Other the x person why peeps be bashing da sisers yo.

Be glad they got something. I'm damn happy chaos, sisters and inq are gettig dome sweet loving. Anyways thats my 2 cents.

Erm, I know you didn't explicitly state a name, but given how easily I can see that the people you're talking about could include me, I want to give you my opinion.

Initially, yes, I was very negative about the recent stuff with Sisters of Battle. I wasn't happy about Codex: Imperial Agents or Canoness Veridyan, and I trash-talked them a lot, and not just on Dakka.

But then I do what I do a LOT. I started thinking. Like, actually thinking about things, with the knowledge that I can be wrong about things, because frankly, as a schizophrenic who has suffered from some pretty significant delusions over the years, I have had many occasions on which I had to provide myself with proof that things I believed were true were in fact false, to a degree I could convince myself absolutely. When I believed people were reading my thoughts, I had to come up with a concrete reason that I could not rationalize away, that that was impossible. Eventually I came up with the realization that things like passwords would literally be useless if a human could simply read your mind, so thus, humans could not read minds, since the process for breaking a password is not simply, "Wait until they think of it, then you know their password." As a result of being a schizophrenic who nearly made a complete recovery apart from crippling social anxiety problems (probably as a result of the antipsychotics, actually, as my Risperdal's documentation warns about the possibility the meds can cause social anxiety problems, and it was literally the only symptom to persist (social anxiety is also a symptom of schizophrenia, and one I had a lot of)), I'm probably one of the most rational and objective humans on the planet, and I am fully prepared to accept that I might be wrong about something if the reason I'm wrong is good enough. When I find out I'm wrong about something in an argument, I don't get mad or deny it or keep claiming something false, I just move on to another part of the argument. Many people have called this "moving the goalposts" because they misunderstand the logical fallacy they're referring to, and what they're calling "moving the goalposts" is more like not choosing to end the game immediately after one team scores a goal.

And the more I thought about it, the better I felt about the recent news about Sisters of Battle. It is literally the best news we could have reasonably asked for. We have a printed Codex. Jesus Christ, that is monumental on its own, because that is something I have not been able to say for literally five years, since 5e, and even then my printed Codex was from 3e, and was written eight years earlier. The loss of Celestine is acceptable, because it damned sure isn't the first time models have been invalidated by a change to a Codex, and I'll get used to not using her eventually. We are getting new models, slowly, yes, but that's how GW works nowadays, and there's no real reason to assume they'll just stop after Celestine, without assuming that they never intend to provide new models under any circumstances, which is factually incorrect since we can already buy one right now and a WD leak strongly implies Celestine will follow next month. Kirby being ousted as CEO earlier this year resulted in MANY changes to GW's policies, and it's entirely possible that the neglect was a result of his policies, which could easily have been changed as well.

And yes, I have been very negative within the past month. However, there is NOTHING I can do to take those words back, and now I have changed my mind about the situation. Are people not allowed to change their minds when they realize they were viewing the situation incorrectly earlier?

Does it really matter what they do in the end?

They've always been one of the consistently least popular armies. Even Daemonhunters when they were all metal were still more popular. I doubt this release will make much for them too. They'd literally have been better off squatting them instead of wasting shelf space that could go to new Guard or Marine or Eldar kits.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Does it really matter what they do in the end?

They've always been one of the consistently least popular armies. Even Daemonhunters when they were all metal were still more popular. I doubt this release will make much for them too. They'd literally have been better off squatting them instead of wasting shelf space that could go to new Guard or Marine or Eldar kits.

Frankly, I don't really mind being the least popular army when it comes down to it. My enjoyment of the game is not really impacted by how many OTHER people play my army.

So long as the army is supported enough to get new models every so often (there are plenty of Sisters players who would actually be happier never getting plastic models, since they enjoy the weight of the models. Personally I want plastics because they're easier to do kitbashing and conversions with, and if I liked metal models I wouldn't be mad at all, except maybe at previously-available stuff going OOP) I really don't care about which slot after Space Marines my army falls on the popularity chart.

For me, frankly, it's never been about the army being unpopular. It's entirely been about not having plastic models to do conversions with. I'm happy because I might be getting those relatively soon. Other people are unhappy because me getting plastics will mean the metal ones they like will go OOP. Others couldn't care either way and are more concerned about the lore. And no one of those opinions is objectively more valid than any of the others.

 Pouncey wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Does it really matter what they do in the end?

They've always been one of the consistently least popular armies. Even Daemonhunters when they were all metal were still more popular. I doubt this release will make much for them too. They'd literally have been better off squatting them instead of wasting shelf space that could go to new Guard or Marine or Eldar kits.

Frankly, I don't really mind being the least popular army when it comes down to it. My enjoyment of the game is not really impacted by how many OTHER people play my army.

So long as the army is supported enough to get new models every so often (there are plenty of Sisters players who would actually be happier never getting plastic models, since they enjoy the weight of the models. Personally I want plastics because they're easier to do kitbashing and conversions with, and if I liked metal models I wouldn't be mad at all, except maybe at previously-available stuff going OOP) I really don't care about which slot after Space Marines my army falls on the popularity chart.

For me, frankly, it's never been about the army being unpopular. It's entirely been about not having plastic models to do conversions with. I'm happy because I might be getting those relatively soon. Other people are unhappy because me getting plastics will mean the metal ones they like will go OOP. Others couldn't care either way and are more concerned about the lore. And no one of those opinions is objectively more valid than any of the others.

My point is that they shouldn't have bothered supporting the army. Nobody plays them. Everyone likes to cite Dark Eldar and that's not a good example, because that didn't exactly make them a lot of money either and nobody plays them still. Like Sisters, Dark Eldar are better off just being deleted with the exception of keeping 1-2 units in the Eldar codex or for Corsairs.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
My point is that they shouldn't have bothered supporting the army. Nobody plays them. Everyone likes to cite Dark Eldar and that's not a good example, because that didn't exactly make them a lot of money either and nobody plays them still. Like Sisters, Dark Eldar are better off just being deleted with the exception of keeping 1-2 units in the Eldar codex or for Corsairs.

Okay, but at that point you're literally advocating just squatting all unpopular armies.

There's a phrase I really, REALLY want to type here. It's only three words long, but I can't include it due to the politeness rule. Feel free to use your imagination as to what three words those might be.

 Pouncey wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
My point is that they shouldn't have bothered supporting the army. Nobody plays them. Everyone likes to cite Dark Eldar and that's not a good example, because that didn't exactly make them a lot of money either and nobody plays them still. Like Sisters, Dark Eldar are better off just being deleted with the exception of keeping 1-2 units in the Eldar codex or for Corsairs.

Okay, but at that point you're literally advocating just squatting all unpopular armies.

There's a phrase I really, REALLY want to type here. It's only three words long, but I can't include it due to the politeness rule. Feel free to use your imagination as to what three words those might be.

Yes I am because they're a waste of time for the majority of players and a waste of time for GW themselves. DE and SoB need to be squatted, AdMech needs consolidation into one codex, Harlequins and MT didn't need to be anything but a couple FOC's or formations for their parent codices, and Blood Angels and Dark Angels can easily be handled by a Chapter Tactic system. Deathwatch, Grey Knights, and Space Wolves get the exception. Then you got FW to handle the more niche stuff.

Also I don't care what the three words are because this is the Internet.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yes I am because they're a waste of time for the majority of players and a waste of time for GW themselves. DE and SoB need to be squatted, AdMech needs consolidation into one codex, Harlequins and MT didn't need to be anything but a couple FOC's or formations for their parent codices, and Blood Angels and Dark Angels can easily be handled by a Chapter Tactic system. Deathwatch, Grey Knights, and Space Wolves get the exception. Then you got FW to handle the more niche stuff.

Also I don't care what the three words are because this is the Internet.

I'm gonna guess that one of two things is true.

A-Your own army is not in danger of being unpopular enough to be Squatted
B-You enjoy a wide enough variety of armies you would be capable of enjoying the game even if most of the armies you are willing to play are squatted

 Pouncey wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yes I am because they're a waste of time for the majority of players and a waste of time for GW themselves. DE and SoB need to be squatted, AdMech needs consolidation into one codex, Harlequins and MT didn't need to be anything but a couple FOC's or formations for their parent codices, and Blood Angels and Dark Angels can easily be handled by a Chapter Tactic system. Deathwatch, Grey Knights, and Space Wolves get the exception. Then you got FW to handle the more niche stuff.

Also I don't care what the three words are because this is the Internet.

I'm gonna guess that one of two things is true.

A-Your own army is not in danger of being unpopular enough to be Squatted
B-You enjoy a wide enough variety of armies you would be capable of enjoying the game even if most of the armies you are willing to play are squatted

I play Necrons (which is very middle of the road outside being mildly popular in tournaments), Skitarii, and have about 1000 points of old school metal Daemonhunters in storage out of state. All my Marines and a majority of my Necrons were lost in a fire and otherwise I borrow models for the most part because I cannot fully explain how many points of models perished.

Otherwise, the setting and armies is fine. I'll never make an army of Eldar, IG, etc, because I don't care for the rule sets. However, there are unnecessary armies like SoB and DE that take away from potential kits for armies that people overall actually care about or matter for the setting.

That's another good point now that I think about it. The SoB codex is middle tier (if youre not playing it like you want to) and nobody uses it. It is because the army itself is unappealing.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yes I am because they're a waste of time for the majority of players and a waste of time for GW themselves. DE and SoB need to be squatted, AdMech needs consolidation into one codex, Harlequins and MT didn't need to be anything but a couple FOC's or formations for their parent codices, and Blood Angels and Dark Angels can easily be handled by a Chapter Tactic system. Deathwatch, Grey Knights, and Space Wolves get the exception. Then you got FW to handle the more niche stuff.

Also I don't care what the three words are because this is the Internet.

I'm gonna guess that one of two things is true.

A-Your own army is not in danger of being unpopular enough to be Squatted
B-You enjoy a wide enough variety of armies you would be capable of enjoying the game even if most of the armies you are willing to play are squatted

I play Necrons (which is very middle of the road outside being mildly popular in tournaments), Skitarii, and have about 1000 points of old school metal Daemonhunters in storage out of state. All my Marines and a majority of my Necrons were lost in a fire and otherwise I borrow models for the most part because I cannot fully explain how many points of models perished.

Otherwise, the setting and armies is fine. I'll never make an army of Eldar, IG, etc, because I don't care for the rule sets. However, there are unnecessary armies like SoB and DE that take away from potential kits for armies that people overall actually care about or matter for the setting.

That's another good point now that I think about it. The SoB codex is middle tier (if youre not playing it like you want to) and nobody uses it. It is because the army itself is unappealing.

So B then? Thought so. You made enough exceptions that I wasn't willing to assume you played any one particular army.

Also, I'm pretty sure that at least part of the army's unpopularity stemmed from the fact that a single Troops choice costing about 200 pts or so and consisting of 10 infantry and 1 transport vehicle costs about 130 CAD plus taxes. Seriously, go look at the prices of Sisters of Battle models on GW's sites and remember that those squads cost LESS points than Space Marines do,so you need MORE of them to meet the same points limit for a game than Space Marines do.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Otherwise, the setting and armies is fine. I'll never make an army of Eldar, IG, etc, because I don't care for the rule sets. However, there are unnecessary armies like SoB and DE that take away from potential kits for armies that people overall actually care about or matter for the setting.

You say that, but look how well Dark Eldar sold after their revamp in 5th. The reason they're not selling now is because their rules suck. Hard to care about an army whose rules suck.

That's another good point now that I think about it. The SoB codex is middle tier (if youre not playing it like you want to) and nobody uses it. It is because the army itself is unappealing.

That's one way of looking at it. The thing to remember is, if you SoB the "middle tier" way, you're talking 50-odd Sororitas alongside 8-12 Immolators and 0-3 Exorcists. That's nearly a grand for a middle tier army if you're starting from scratch. I don't think so.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Battle-Sisters-Squad

I plugged this squad and its precise loadout (which no competent player would EVER use, given how worthless Stormbolters are as a squad's special weapon, I use my Stormbolter models as Sister Superiors) into Battlescribe and found it costs 160pts. It costs 100 dollars to buy, and you don't get to choose a single thing about the models in the squad unless you want to start cutting apart solid, monopose metal models whose concept of "assembly" consists of gluing together 3 pieces: the backpack, the base, and everything else. Taxes in my location run me about an extra 15%, so that bumps the price up to 115 dollars or so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BBAP wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Otherwise, the setting and armies is fine. I'll never make an army of Eldar, IG, etc, because I don't care for the rule sets. However, there are unnecessary armies like SoB and DE that take away from potential kits for armies that people overall actually care about or matter for the setting.

You say that, but look how well Dark Eldar sold after their revamp in 5th. The reason they're not selling now is because their rules suck. Hard to care about an army whose rules suck.

That's another good point now that I think about it. The SoB codex is middle tier (if youre not playing it like you want to) and nobody uses it. It is because the army itself is unappealing.

That's one way of looking at it. The thing to remember is, if you SoB the "middle tier" way, you're talking 50-odd Sororitas alongside 8-12 Immolators and 0-3 Exorcists. That's nearly a grand for a middle tier army if you're starting from scratch. I don't think so.

Sisters of Battle come in minimums of 5 per squad. Immolators are dedicated transports. If you're taking 12 Immolators, you're taking at least 60 Sororitas.

Also, why would you ever take 0 Exorcists? We literally have no other long-range anti-vehicle weapons.

Bruh we can't just delete entire armies because ''nobody plays them''. Theres angood damn reason nobody plays them, its because gw neglected the heck out of them. Imagine if gw decided that feth the space marines for 10 years and they aint getting any releases. Everybody is going to quit playing them thats for sure.

Not because something is unpopular that we need to scrape it out. Wheres the variety at? If i want to be playing space marines vs space marines ill be playing 30k. Inq, sob, dark eldar just bring flavor to the game. Playing the same thing over and over again might get repetive. Look at orks. Everybody lobes playing vs orks yet its extremely rare to get to play vs orks because they're so god damned trash.

And off topic, pouncey you keep beong yourtself you beautiful creature. <3 may the dakka gods be ever with you.

 Pouncey wrote:
Also, why would you ever take 0 Exorcists?

Because you have 12 TLMM Immolators with 2 Meltaguns in them apiece, 2-4 of which are Outflanking or Scouting. Also, gorgeous as it is, the GW Exorcist is a pain in the arse to assemble. Yes I know FW do an alternate turret, but I want "Exorcist", not "gakky Whirlwind".

We literally have no other long-range anti-vehicle weapons.

But Sisters are a close-range shooting army whose best build involves filling the table with LoS-blocking vehicles that become LoS-blocking terrain when they die. Long range weapons don't synergise well with that. You want stuff that can move around or through the terrain so stuff isn't getting hull-down cover saves and Jetbikes aren't hiding behind your wrecks. That's not what Exorcists are built to do.

Exorcists tend to help a little with mcs and such too, sometimes flyers... Also screw that alternate turret, it's just the rocket pods from the valkyrie; using a whirlwind and an immolator kit looks better than that.

 Pouncey wrote:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Battle-Sisters-Squad

I plugged this squad and its precise loadout (which no competent player would EVER use, given how worthless Stormbolters are as a squad's special weapon, I use my Stormbolter models as Sister Superiors) into Battlescribe and found it costs 160pts. It costs 100 dollars to buy, and you don't get to choose a single thing about the models in the squad unless you want to start cutting apart solid, monopose metal models whose concept of "assembly" consists of gluing together 3 pieces: the backpack, the base, and everything else. Taxes in my location run me about an extra 15%, so that bumps the price up to 115 dollars or so.

Wait, it has a meltagun now? Used to be a flamer.
Problem I had with the box other than what you mentioned and the even higher price was this.

 n0t_u wrote:
Wait, it has a meltagun now? Used to be a flamer.

They redid all the squad kits at the start of December.

The Retributor kit is actually 100% useless for creating a Retributor Squad if you want to make an effective army. Literally, every model, completely useless.

Well, unless you want to just use a stock weapon loadout on your Superior. Then I guess you could use one model as the Superior.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BBAP wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Also, why would you ever take 0 Exorcists?

Because you have 12 TLMM Immolators with 2 Meltaguns in them apiece, 2-4 of which are Outflanking or Scouting. Also, gorgeous as it is, the GW Exorcist is a pain in the arse to assemble. Yes I know FW do an alternate turret, but I want "Exorcist", not "gakky Whirlwind".

Hmm, given the FOC chart, you COULD have 12 Immolators AND 3 Exorcists in the same lists, but then you'd need to take 15 units out of a total maximum of 18 in all standard slots. At that point, you're getting very, very close to armies being so large in standard games that they'd probably have to expand the standard FOC with extra slots.

Good point. 12 Immolators probably does mean you're taking 0 Exorcists.

We literally have no other long-range anti-vehicle weapons.

But Sisters are a close-range shooting army whose best build involves filling the table with LoS-blocking vehicles that become LoS-blocking terrain when they die. Long range weapons don't synergise well with that. You want stuff that can move around or through the terrain so stuff isn't getting hull-down cover saves and Jetbikes aren't hiding behind your wrecks. That's not what Exorcists are built to do.

We don't really expect Exorcists to synergize with anything. We expect them to hit things that are out of range of our other units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 drunken0elf wrote:
Bruh we can't just delete entire armies because ''nobody plays them''. Theres angood damn reason nobody plays them, its because gw neglected the heck out of them. Imagine if gw decided that feth the space marines for 10 years and they aint getting any releases. Everybody is going to quit playing them thats for sure.

Not because something is unpopular that we need to scrape it out. Wheres the variety at? If i want to be playing space marines vs space marines ill be playing 30k. Inq, sob, dark eldar just bring flavor to the game. Playing the same thing over and over again might get repetive. Look at orks. Everybody lobes playing vs orks yet its extremely rare to get to play vs orks because they're so god damned trash.

And off topic, pouncey you keep beong yourtself you beautiful creature. <3 may the dakka gods be ever with you.

13. 13 years.

Before Veridyan, our youngest sculpts were teenagers and our oldest were old enough to vote.

Pouncey wrote:Also, why would you ever take 0 Exorcists? We literally have no other long-range anti-vehicle weapons.

Scouting Dominions puts you at midfield before 1st turn. Unless they deploy less than 6" from the table edge you should be able to nuke somebody into a special snowflake that turn. Bring six.

Some formations in FoCadia would be nice. My Raven Guard got some love. My Iron Warriors got some love. My Tzeentch Daemons got some love. My Night Lords got some love. My Death Guard got a lot of love.

If SoB have to get blown to pooh in the fluff to get rules this time I am all for it. Unless the rules suck, then I will blame all you newb SoB players for breaking rule #1. Then I will keep burning Heretics.

 dracpanzer wrote:

Pouncey wrote:Also, why would you ever take 0 Exorcists? We literally have no other long-range anti-vehicle weapons.

Scouting Dominions puts you at midfield before 1st turn. Unless they deploy less than 6" from the table edge you should be able to nuke somebody into a special snowflake that turn. Bring six.

It's starting to occur to me that maybe the reason I keep getting tabled by turn 4 after 10 years of playing Sisters is that I simply never learned to play the game well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dracpanzer wrote:
If SoB have to get blown to pooh in the fluff to get rules this time I am all for it. Unless the rules suck, then I will blame all you newb SoB players for breaking rule #1. Then I will keep burning Heretics.

The only occasion in which casualties in the lore resulted in rules changes was the time when GW made a conscious decision to write the Squats out of the setting. Other than that, both lore and rules have been considered secondary to selling models.

I also believe that if I want to read quality fiction, I'm not going to find it in any sort of gaming industry, and I should probably just go read some Baen sci-fi instead because their writers have to impress Baen enough to get published. And I might learn some stuff about physics too, given Baen's rules about what works they accept and reject.

 Pouncey wrote:
Good point. 12 Immolators probably does mean you're taking 0 Exorcists.

At 1850pts it does, although if you run dual CADs you can pack a respectable number of Immos in around 4 Exorcists at that level - but that's not the army I play, and I don't think it's necessarily the best way to run SoB. Not a bad way by any means - they're still Exorcists, after all - but not the best way.

We don't really expect Exorcists to synergize with anything. We expect them to hit things that are out of range of our other units.

Are you one of those gun-line footslogging Sisters players who lines their models up at the edge of the deployment zone? If so, I have some exciting news for you that will revolutionise the way you play this army.

 BBAP wrote:
Are you one of those gun-line footslogging Sisters players who lines their models up at the edge of the deployment zone? If so, I have some exciting news for you that will revolutionise the way you play this army.

No.

I'm the kind who moves my Battle Sisters Squads within charge range of mobs of Ork Boyz, intending to rapid-fire into them when they crest the hill that is blocking my line of sight, because on occasion I forget to treat this game as "turn based" instead of "real time".

HAHAHAHAHHA....

"Lets delete anything that I think isnt popular"
Can we delete him from the forum? B.c he isnt popular atm XD

AFI Im a avid DE player, with 15k+ points. There are more DE armies in tournaments than your would think. Its an amazing aesthetic army, just b.c you dont like it doesnt mean it doesnt sale, we can't see GW army sales, so you dont know if players are buying them or not.

Ok Ok on topic
But I dont take Exorcist, They never do enough for me, tho with the New Canoness coming out and the Bubble it gives out, I might give it a try again.

It's starting to occur to me that maybe the reason I keep getting tabled by turn 4 after 10 years of playing Sisters is that I simply never learned to play the game well.

How do you get tabled playing Sisters of Battle? My Sororitas have had some pretty spectacular trouncings since I started 40k-ing again in October, but I've never even come close to being tabled. I'm not even sure how it would be possible, unless you're playing blobs without Priests and forgetting to Overwatch so they get Swept.

 BBAP wrote:

It's starting to occur to me that maybe the reason I keep getting tabled by turn 4 after 10 years of playing Sisters is that I simply never learned to play the game well.

How do you get tabled playing Sisters of Battle? My Sororitas have had some pretty spectacular trouncings since I started 40k-ing again in October, but I've never even come close to being tabled. I'm not even sure how it would be possible, unless you're playing blobs without Priests and forgetting to Overwatch so they get Swept.

I think my previous post answers the "how" pretty solidly.

 Pouncey wrote:
No.

I'm the kind who moves my Battle Sisters Squads within charge range of mobs of Ork Boyz, intending to rapid-fire into them when they crest the hill that is blocking my line of sight, because on occasion I forget to treat this game as "turn based" instead of "real time".

I see the problem now. HF Rets in Immolators will sort that for you. Also everything in Immolators. Especially Dominions.

PS: Immolators.

 BBAP wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
No.

I'm the kind who moves my Battle Sisters Squads within charge range of mobs of Ork Boyz, intending to rapid-fire into them when they crest the hill that is blocking my line of sight, because on occasion I forget to treat this game as "turn based" instead of "real time".

I see the problem now. HF Rets in Immolators will sort that for you. Also everything in Immolators. Especially Dominions.

PS: Immolators.

I have 2 lists, 1 with 12 immolators spam, another with a Knight and still 7-9 Immolators and 2-3 rhinos.

I love scouting Immolators

 BBAP wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
No.

I'm the kind who moves my Battle Sisters Squads within charge range of mobs of Ork Boyz, intending to rapid-fire into them when they crest the hill that is blocking my line of sight, because on occasion I forget to treat this game as "turn based" instead of "real time".

I see the problem now. HF Rets in Immolators will sort that for you. Also everything in Immolators. Especially Dominions.

PS: Immolators.

Generally I got the idea that Immolators are important when you mentioned a standard list having up to 12 of them.

Any vehicle you include 12 of is god damned important beyond the point of simply requiring back-ups. At that point you're having back-ups for your back-ups' back-ups. Though I do recall that the intention is that they will simply provide mobile LOS-blocking terrain to clog the battlefield with so many tanks the enemy can't shoot you.

As such, my next purchase for my army, which I will order at the same time I buy the new Codex, will be a veritable crapload of Immolators,because I only have 2 or 3 right now and I run my list as footsloggers. I will also purchase a sizable number of Heavy Flamer models.

Yes, I do recognize I have been playing the army ENTIRELY wrong, hence my plan to correct it.

Any other suggestions? I'm not attached enough to Exorcists to insist on using them if they're not needed.

Pray to the God Emperor FW brings repressors back?

 Pouncey wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
No.

I'm the kind who moves my Battle Sisters Squads within charge range of mobs of Ork Boyz, intending to rapid-fire into them when they crest the hill that is blocking my line of sight, because on occasion I forget to treat this game as "turn based" instead of "real time".

I see the problem now. HF Rets in Immolators will sort that for you. Also everything in Immolators. Especially Dominions.

PS: Immolators.

Generally I got the idea that Immolators are important when you mentioned a standard list having up to 12 of them.

Any vehicle you include 12 of is god damned important beyond the point of simply requiring back-ups. At that point you're having back-ups for your back-ups' back-ups. Though I do recall that the intention is that they will simply provide mobile LOS-blocking terrain to clog the battlefield with so many tanks the enemy can't shoot you.

As such, my next purchase for my army, which I will order at the same time I buy the new Codex, will be a veritable crapload of Immolators,because I only have 2 or 3 right now and I run my list as footsloggers. I will also purchase a sizable number of Heavy Flamer models.

Yes, I do recognize I have been playing the army ENTIRELY wrong, hence my plan to correct it.

Any other suggestions? I'm not attached enough to Exorcists to insist on using them if they're not needed.

The thing about Exorcists is, if they roll hot they are amazing, they are long range, S81 ap1 etc.., but they have the potential to suck. I know many that live by them and take 6, and I know some that hate them (including me)

I honestly like my 5 Units of Scouting Immolators with Ignore cover Melta guns and Rending HB/HF

Also depending on your meta, if you are facing MSU then Exorcists arent as good, they shine at Long range elite fights. If you are facing Necrons or Tau, I would take them. (at least from my experience)

 Amishprn86 wrote:
The thing about Exorcists is, if they roll hot they are amazing, they are long range, S81 ap1 etc.., but they have the potential to suck. I know many that live by them and take 6, and I know some that hate them (including me)

I honestly like my 5 Units of Scouting Immolators with Ignore cover Melta guns and Rending HB/HF

Also depending on your meta, if you are facing MSU then Exorcists arent as good, they shine at Long range elite fights. If you are facing Necrons or Tau, I would take them. (at least from my experience)

I play against only one person due to my personal circumstances, and she rarely changes her list, so the difference between "designing my list for my local meta" and "list tailoring to defeat a particular opponent's specific list" is effectively zero. As such, I have, erm, moral issues with choosing units based on my local meta, which I understand do not apply to anyone else.

I will simply eschew the Exorcists because they probably won't be useful and I like neither the model nor the concept, anyways.

Plus, I've always been wanting a reason to use Immolators. I like the idea of an APC with a turret weapon.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
The thing about Exorcists is, if they roll hot they are amazing, they are long range, S81 ap1 etc.., but they have the potential to suck. I know many that live by them and take 6, and I know some that hate them (including me)

I honestly like my 5 Units of Scouting Immolators with Ignore cover Melta guns and Rending HB/HF

Also depending on your meta, if you are facing MSU then Exorcists arent as good, they shine at Long range elite fights. If you are facing Necrons or Tau, I would take them. (at least from my experience)

I play against only one person due to my personal circumstances, and she rarely changes her list, so the difference between "designing my list for my local meta" and "list tailoring to defeat a particular opponent's specific list" is effectively zero. As such, I have, erm, moral issues with choosing units based on my local meta, which I understand do not apply to anyone else.

I will simply eschew the Exorcists because they probably won't be useful and I like neither the model nor the concept, anyways.

Plus, I've always been wanting a reason to use Immolators. I like the idea of an APC with a turret weapon.

There is a difference in list tailor for 1 person and for a local meta, if your meta had 9-12 players and ALL of them brought Knights you will bring Anti knight, or if they all bring Fliers, your would bring AA.

But sense you play against 1 person mostly that must be hard to not list tailor :( (I dont mean on purpose but self-conscientiously)

 Pouncey wrote:
Any other suggestions?

Be aware that no matter how "optimal" you make your Sisters, there's stuff they can only beat on a really good day. MSU mech Sisters (i.e. based around min squads with 2 Meltaguns in TLMM Immos) hurt more lists than footslogging armies and have fewer hard counters, but they're still a light mech army, so there are still hard counters.

Beyond that, bring 6 Dominions, like dracpanzer said, and put a Laud Hailer on a couple of their Immos. These are your backbone, and they are disgustingly awesome. You'll need 4 HFs max, 24+ Meltaguns, although they're easy enough to convert from boltguns using net bitz. Also get a Priest, or convert one - he'll be leading the second CAD. Veridyan is a good bet if you can fit her in, so you can snipe with Meltaguns - if not just take another Priest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Also depending on your meta, if you are facing MSU then Exorcists arent as good, they shine at Long range elite fights. If you are facing Necrons or Tau, I would take them. (at least from my experience)

Pretty much this. Exorcists are all but worthless against the likes of Genestealer Cults - at best you'll kill 6 of my dudes, and I'll either Summon more or RttS and get most of them back.

One other thing that might be worth a look now that Immos can be taken as FA - Sisters of Silence. Two Flamers, three Greatblades, and a big massive anti-psyker bubble jumping out in midfield. Could be useful. Not as useful as a Knight though.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
There is a difference in list tailor for 1 person and for a local meta, if your meta had 9-12 players and ALL of them brought Knights you will bring Anti knight, or if they all bring Fliers, your would bring AA.

But sense you play against 1 person mostly that must be hard to not list tailor :( (I dont mean on purpose but self-conscientiously)

I am aware of the difference, yes.

Are you aware of the difference between "most people" and "this one guy"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BBAP wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Any other suggestions?

Be aware that no matter how "optimal" you make your Sisters, there's stuff they can only beat on a really good day. MSU mech Sisters (i.e. based around min squads with 2 Meltaguns in TLMM Immos) hurt more lists than footslogging armies and have fewer hard counters, but they're still a light mech army, so there are still hard counters.

Beyond that, bring 6 Dominions, like dracpanzer said, and put a Laud Hailer on a couple of their Immos. These are your backbone, and they are disgustingly awesome. You'll need 4 HFs max, 24+ Meltaguns, although they're easy enough to convert from boltguns using net bitz. Also get a Priest, or convert one - he'll be leading the second CAD. Veridyan is a good bet if you can fit her in, so you can snipe with Meltaguns - if not just take another Priest.

I would prefer winning half of the time, actually, not almost all the time. That way my opponent and I both get to share the fun of winning.

I would actually make my list deliberately less powerful if it were winning too much.

Also, erm, I might decide to swap half of the meltaguns for flamers. My opponent doesn't bring a lot of vehicles.

If you're going to ask why only half, consider the implications of what I just said in this post, and that "not a lot" does not, in fact, mean "none."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BBAP wrote:
One other thing that might be worth a look now that Immos can be taken as FA - Sisters of Silence. Two Flamers, three Greatblades, and a big massive anti-psyker bubble jumping out in midfield. Could be useful. Not as useful as a Knight though.

Uhh, I play Sisters of Battle, not Sisters of Silence. To me there's an important difference, but I understand if you don't agree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BBAP wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Any other suggestions?

Be aware that no matter how "optimal" you make your Sisters, there's stuff they can only beat on a really good day. MSU mech Sisters (i.e. based around min squads with 2 Meltaguns in TLMM Immos) hurt more lists than footslogging armies and have fewer hard counters, but they're still a light mech army, so there are still hard counters.

Beyond that, bring 6 Dominions, like dracpanzer said, and put a Laud Hailer on a couple of their Immos. These are your backbone, and they are disgustingly awesome. You'll need 4 HFs max, 24+ Meltaguns, although they're easy enough to convert from boltguns using net bitz. Also get a Priest, or convert one - he'll be leading the second CAD. Veridyan is a good bet if you can fit her in, so you can snipe with Meltaguns - if not just take another Priest.

Also, uh, my Google skills are sufficient to research netlists if I wanted to go that route. I don't.

 Pouncey wrote:

I would prefer winning half of the time, actually, not almost all the time. That way my opponent and I both get to share the fun of winning.

I would actually make my list deliberately less powerful if it were winning too much.

Also, erm, I might decide to swap half of the meltaguns for flamers. My opponent doesn't bring a lot of vehicles.

If you're going to ask why only half, consider the implications of what I just said in this post, and that "not a lot" does not, in fact, mean "none."

All good - these are general tips rather than specific ones. Do what works for you. If you're going to swap the Meltas though, take a Flamer/ HF instead of just two Flamers. You only save 5pts but the HF is worth it. Leave the Doms with their Meltas though.

Dropping some Dominions would make the list less powerful and give you space for Exorcists, if that's your wont.

The Sisters of Silence are a utility thing not a fluff thing. They are a great way to make a 650pt Magnus leave the table while he's flying around.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
There is a difference in list tailor for 1 person and for a local meta, if your meta had 9-12 players and ALL of them brought Knights you will bring Anti knight, or if they all bring Fliers, your would bring AA.

But sense you play against 1 person mostly that must be hard to not list tailor :( (I dont mean on purpose but self-conscientiously)

I am aware of the difference, yes.

Are you aware of the difference between "most people" and "this one guy"?

Well before you explain you only play with 1 person, I didnt know that before hand so....... now I know, you just said it in a way that i "read your comment as" I "told you to tailor" your list and was making sure we didnt miss understood each other.

 BBAP wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

I would prefer winning half of the time, actually, not almost all the time. That way my opponent and I both get to share the fun of winning.

I would actually make my list deliberately less powerful if it were winning too much.

Also, erm, I might decide to swap half of the meltaguns for flamers. My opponent doesn't bring a lot of vehicles.

If you're going to ask why only half, consider the implications of what I just said in this post, and that "not a lot" does not, in fact, mean "none."

All good - these are general tips rather than specific ones. Do what works for you. If you're going to swap the Meltas though, take a Flamer/ HF instead of just two Flamers. You only save 5pts but the HF is worth it. Leave the Doms with their Meltas though.

Dropping some Dominions would make the list less powerful and give you space for Exorcists, if that's your wont.

The Sisters of Silence are a utility thing not a fluff thing. They are a great way to make a 650pt Magnus leave the table while he's flying around.

Could use an Assassin too for Anti Psychic