Per recent discussions and in order to avoid spillover that seems likely to occur...
I have opened this to discuss the following.
Which rules are basic rules.
Which rules are advanced rules.
Which rules are special rules.
I would assert the following...
1. All basic rules are contained within the BRB.
a. The core rules section tells us how all of the basic rules function in action.
b. That all rules, not located in the Special Rules, section of the BRB, are basic rules.
c. The splash page for the Core Rules section tells us that it contains ALL basic rules.
2. All Special Rules or USR's are located in the Special rules section of the BRB.
a. The first page of the special rules section notates it presents ALL special rules.
b. This does state that the list is not exhaustive and that other special rules can be found in other documents, codex, datasheets.
c. I would assert that all special rules located within the BRB are indeed located in that section.
d. Datasheet point 10. Will state that all special rules located in a Codex will be found on the Army List Entry or Appendix for the codex, or located in the special rules section of the BRB.
d2. The above correlates what the BRB already states.
3. All advanced rules are contained within codex's.
a. If you check the physical BRB for advanced rules it only provides you page 13. which is the Basic Vs Advanced box.
b. Basic vs advanced tells us "The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex."
c. Basic vs advanced also tells us "Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules."
d. The only rules that pertain to SPECIFIC models are located in Codex's. Such as giving a model in a unit a relic, or giving a sargeant melta bombs, or a plasma pistol.
If you feel that any of these are incorrect, or that I have missed something that contradicts these assertions, feel free to point them out.
Your schema is flawed. 1b is wholly incorrect, 2 contradicts itself, and all of 3 is wrong.
Let's start over based on what the rules actually say.
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section.
Spoiler:
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules. The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB (except for the Core Rules section which is for basic rules) and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
I have some contentions with where you find advanced rules.
1. Basic rules apply to all models in the game.
The unit types section only tells us rules for movement, shooting, assault and morale.
Can you tell us what rules are located in that section that are not basic rules?
2. If the advanced rules are calling out how they apply to specific models, and the unit types section is about unit types, not models, this seems to contradict itself.
Can you tell us what specific models are discussed in the unit types section?
3. The Basic Vs Advanced tells us "The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry."
If the Army List Entry is supposed to tell us what advanced rules a unit has, how can the unit types section tell us what advanced rules a unit type has?
Ceann wrote: I have some contentions with where you find advanced rules.
1. Basic rules apply to all models in the game.
The unit types section only tells us rules for movement, shooting, assault and morale.
Can you tell us what rules are located in that section that are not basic rules?
None of the rules that are in the Unit Type section are basic rules. All of the rules in the Unit Type section are advanced rules since the section is concerned with rules for specific models which are not the basic infantry model.
All of the basic rules can be found in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
Ceann wrote: 2. If the advanced rules are calling out how they apply to specific models, and the unit types section is about unit types, not models.
Can you tell us what specific models are discussed in the unit types section?
You are confused. Advanced rules apply to units and/or models.
"[The Unit Type] section explores all the different unit types that describe your models."
"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section."
So the models that are described in the Unit Type section are bikes, jetbikes, artillery, jump models, jet pack models, monstrous creatures, beasts, tanks, chariots, characters, etc.
Ceann wrote: 3. The Basic Vs Advanced tells us "The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry."
If the Army List Entry is supposed to tell us what advanced rules a unit has, how can the unit types section tell us what advanced rules a unit type has?
An Army List Entry tells us what advanced rules a unit has and those advanced rules can be anywhere in the BRB (except for the Core Rules section) or any 40k publication.
The Unit Type section itself has nothing but advanced rules in it. The basic infantry rules are mentioned but the Unit Type section specifically says "there are no additional rules to present here".
An Army List Entry will list a unit type such as "jet pack infantry" so the Army List Entry is indicating that the jet pack unit type rules are advanced rules applying to that model. The advanced rules for Jet Pack models can be found in the Unit Type section.
We have two statements. From the same section of rules.
1.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike,a swarm or even a tank).
I don't see any mention of the Unit Types section here. I also do not see where it tells you to find advanced rules. Can you highlight in red for me where it tells you to look at the Unit Types section?
2.
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
I don't see any reference to the unit types section here either. But it looks like it does tell me where to find advanced rules.
Can you explain to me how you are following RAW for the #1 and RAW for #2?
I just really want to make sure I know how to find these rules correctly.
We have two statements. From the same section of rules.
1.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike,a swarm or even a tank).
I don't see any mention of the Unit Types section here. I also do not see where it tells you to find advanced rules. Can you highlight in red for me where it tells you to look at the Unit Types section?
"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike,a swarm or even a tank)."
The advanced rules for "not normal infantry models" are located in the Unit Type section (e.g. bikes, jetbikes, artillery, jump models, jet pack models, monstrous creatures, beasts, tanks, chariots, characters, etc.).
Ceann wrote: 2.
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
I don't see any reference to the unit types section here either. But it looks like it does tell me where to find advanced rules.
Can you explain to me how you are following RAW for the #1 and RAW for #2?
That quote does not tell you where to find advanced rules. It does tell you where to find Army List Entries. An Army List Entry will indicate what advanced rules apply but the Army List Entry itself will not necessarily contain those rules.
An Army List Entry tells us what advanced rules a unit has and those advanced rules can be anywhere in the BRB (except for the Core Rules section) or any 40k publication.
The Unit Type section itself has nothing but advanced rules in it. The basic infantry rules are mentioned but the Unit Type section specifically says "there are no additional rules to present here" for the basic infantry type.
An Army List Entry will list a unit type such as "jet pack infantry" so the Army List Entry is indicating that the jet pack unit type rules are advanced rules applying to that model. The advanced rules for Jet Pack models can be found in the Unit Type section.
Basic are the rules which apply to all models unless another advanced rule says otherwise
Advanced rules any rule that does not apply to all models these override basic
Special rule a catch all term used 444 times in the Base rulebook alone. These are any rule that alters one of the main game rules and are therefore all advanced rules. these make up the majority of the Base rulebook and codexs and covers everything from unit types to mission rules to keyworded special abilities such as 'furious charge' to unusual grenades
U02dah4 wrote: Basic are the rules which apply to all models unless another advanced rule says otherwise
Advanced rules any rule that does not apply to all models these override basic
Special rule a catch all term used 444 times in the Base rulebook alone. These are any rule that alters one of the main game rules and are therefore all advanced rules. these make up the majority of the Base rulebook and codexs and covers everything from unit types to mission rules to keyworded special abilities such as 'furious charge' to unusual grenades
This is incorrect sir.
"keyworded special abilities such as 'furious charge' to unusual grenades"
I would like to present you two points to consider.
1. This is on the Datasheet guide of any Codex.
Per section 9. of the Datasheet - Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here. Special rules that are unique to models in that unit are described in full here, whilst others are detailed either in the Appendix of this book or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.
2. Per Special Rules section of the BRB - We’ve presented them all in a single section to make your life easier when trying to track down the effect of a particular special rule.
If the Codex tells you all special rules are located in the Codex or the Appendix or the Special rules section of the BRB, and the BRB tells you all special rules are located in the special rules section of the BRB.
How can 'furious charge' to unusual grenades" be special rules as you claim?
Example jump units section is advanced rules they do not apply to all models as not all models are jump infantry
Jump units have the folowing special rules
An unnamed special rule telling you the jump packs may be used in either the movement or assault phase
Sky borne- how it moves over other models
Movement phase- what happens if you jump it in the movement phase
Assault phase- what happens if you use it in the assault phase
Fall back moves - how they fall back
Special rules - the rules which feature multiple times in the BRB and codexs and have been keyworded to save space and are explained in the special rule section of the codex sometimes referred to as nested rules or universal special rules
U02dah4 wrote: Basic are the rules which apply to all models unless another advanced rule says otherwise
Advanced rules any rule that does not apply to all models these override basic
Special rule a catch all term used 444 times in the Base rulebook alone. These are any rule that alters one of the main game rules and are therefore all advanced rules. these make up the majority of the Base rulebook and codexs and covers everything from unit types to mission rules to keyworded special abilities such as 'furious charge' to unusual grenades
This is incorrect sir.
"keyworded special abilities such as 'furious charge' to unusual grenades"
I would like to present you two points to consider.
1. This is on the Datasheet guide of any Codex.
Per section 9. of the Datasheet - Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here. Special rules that are unique to models in that unit are described in full here, whilst others are detailed either in the Appendix of this book or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.
2. Per Special Rules section of the BRB - We’ve presented them all in a single section to make your life easier when trying to track down the effect of a particular special rule.
If the Codex tells you all special rules are located in the Codex or the Appendix or the Special rules section of the BRB, and the BRB tells you all special rules are located in the special rules section of the BRB.
How can 'furious charge' to unusual grenades" be special rules as you claim?
If we are talking catch-all terms here.
Basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Advanced rules are any rule that adds on top of the basic rules to describe a specific model beyond the basic rules in the Core Rules section. You can find those advanced rules in any section outside of the Core Rules section of the BRB and any codex or 40k publication.
Special rules are in the Special Rules section of the BRB. All special rules are advanced rules. Not all advanced rules are special rules.
Advanced rules (whether special Rule, codex rule, or advanced rule in the BRB) have the ability to override any basic rules.
Spoiler:
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
U02dah4 wrote: Example jump units section is advanced rules they do not apply to all models as not all models are jump infantry
Jump units have the folowing special rules
An unnamed special rule telling you the jump packs may be used in either the movement or assault phase
Sky borne- how it moves over other models
Movement phase- what happens if you jump it in the movement phase
Assault phase- what happens if you use it in the assault phase
Fall back moves - how they fall back
Special rules - the rules which feature multiple times in the BRB and codexs and have been keyworded to save space and are explained in the special rule section of the codex sometimes referred to as nested rules or universal special rules
I marked in orange what is, technically speaking, actually 'advanced rules'
I marked in red what is actually specifically special rules. Remember special rules are also advanced rules.
In game terms, the distinction doesn't really matter since all advanced rules (whether special rules or not) have the ability to override basic rules.
"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike,a swarm or even a tank)."
The advanced rules for "not normal infantry models" are located in the Unit Type section (e.g. bikes, jetbikes, artillery, jump models, jet pack models, monstrous creatures, beasts, tanks, chariots, characters, etc.).
1. The data sheet states this for the unit section in the codex. """This refers to the unit type rules in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. For example, a unit may be classed as Infantry, Cavalry or Vehicle, which will subject it to a number of rules regarding movement, shooting, assaults, etc."""
Basic vs advanced tells us "Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise."
The codex is telling us that the unit types section contain the rules for movement, shooting, assaults, which are basic rules per basic vs advanced.
2. The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
This is the part I really need help with them.
I pull up my Necron Night Scythe and it said it was a flyer, I searched the entire codex but I couldn't find the rules for flying. It tells me to check the BRB. Now I couldn't remember where in the BRB to find them, so I checked the index.
The index told me to go to page 13 of the BRB to find advanced rules, when I got to page 13 of the BRB it told me to check the codex for advanced rules.
Can you tell me how to locate advanced rules? I am following exactly what the books tell me to do and I can't find them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
U02dah4 wrote: Example jump units section is advanced rules they do not apply to all models as not all models are jump infantry
Jump units have the folowing special rules
An unnamed special rule telling you the jump packs may be used in either the movement or assault phase
Sky borne- how it moves over other models
Movement phase- what happens if you jump it in the movement phase
Assault phase- what happens if you use it in the assault phase
Fall back moves - how they fall back
Special rules - the rules which feature multiple times in the BRB and codexs and have been keyworded to save space and are explained in the special rule section of the codex sometimes referred to as nested rules or universal special rules
Can you provide page numbers that tell us this?
I did not create any of the words I told you, they are directly from the rulebooks.
1. Per section 9. of the Datasheet - Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here. Special rules that are unique to models in that unit are described in full here, whilst others are detailed either in the Appendix of this book or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.
2. Per Special Rules section of the BRB - We’ve presented them all in a single section to make your life easier when trying to track down the effect of a particular special rule.
Those two statements are what the rulebooks say, can you tell me what why you are saying is more clear than that?
U02dah4 wrote: Basic are the rules which apply to all models unless another advanced rule says otherwise
Advanced rules any rule that does not apply to all models these override basic
Special rule a catch all term used 444 times in the Base rulebook alone. These are any rule that alters one of the main game rules and are therefore all advanced rules. these make up the majority of the Base rulebook and codexs and covers everything from unit types to mission rules to keyworded special abilities such as 'furious charge' to unusual grenades
This is incorrect sir.
"keyworded special abilities such as 'furious charge' to unusual grenades"
I would like to present you two points to consider.
1. This is on the Datasheet guide of any Codex.
Per section 9. of the Datasheet - Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here. Special rules that are unique to models in that unit are described in full here, whilst others are detailed either in the Appendix of this book or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.
2. Per Special Rules section of the BRB - We’ve presented them all in a single section to make your life easier when trying to track down the effect of a particular special rule.
If the Codex tells you all special rules are located in the Codex or the Appendix or the Special rules section of the BRB, and the BRB tells you all special rules are located in the special rules section of the BRB.
How can 'furious charge' to unusual grenades" be special rules as you claim?
Well 1 furious charge is listed in the section your quoting 2 if you read that whole secton not the one line it's referring to the universal special rules and shortens what it's saying half way through to just special rules 3 the unusual grenade rule modifies a main game rule therefore is special
4 go back to the beginning of the BRB have a look in the contents section (what's in this book)
Unit types listed as containing special rules
Preparing for battle special rules again
Appendix a compendium of special rules "frequently used throughout the book" ie they have keyworded it rather than write the same rule again and again
5 refer to the rad grenades discussion where for 18 pages multiple people well versed in the rules explain to someone who doesn't understand why unusual grenades are a special rule and he just trolls them it's very funny
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's called the jump unit section it's not small I can't imagine you'll have difficulty locating it
U02dah4 wrote: Basic are the rules which apply to all models unless another advanced rule says otherwise
Advanced rules any rule that does not apply to all models these override basic
Special rule a catch all term used 444 times in the Base rulebook alone. These are any rule that alters one of the main game rules and are therefore all advanced rules. these make up the majority of the Base rulebook and codexs and covers everything from unit types to mission rules to keyworded special abilities such as 'furious charge' to unusual grenades
This is incorrect sir.
"keyworded special abilities such as 'furious charge' to unusual grenades"
I would like to present you two points to consider.
1. This is on the Datasheet guide of any Codex.
Per section 9. of the Datasheet - Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here. Special rules that are unique to models in that unit are described in full here, whilst others are detailed either in the Appendix of this book or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.
2. Per Special Rules section of the BRB - We’ve presented them all in a single section to make your life easier when trying to track down the effect of a particular special rule.
If the Codex tells you all special rules are located in the Codex or the Appendix or the Special rules section of the BRB, and the BRB tells you all special rules are located in the special rules section of the BRB.
How can 'furious charge' to unusual grenades" be special rules as you claim?
Well 1 furious charge is listed in the section your quoting 2 if you read that whole secton not the one line it's referring to the universal special rules and shortens what it's saying half way through to just special rules 3 the unusual grenade rule modifies a main game rule therefore is special
4 go back to the beginning of the BRB have a look in the contents section (what's in this book)
Unit types listed as containing special rules
Preparing for battle special rules again
Appendix a compendium of special rules "frequently used throughout the book" ie they have keyworded it rather than write the same rule again and again
5 refer to the rad grenades discussion where for 18 pages multiple people well versed in the rules explain to someone who doesn't understand why unusual grenades are a special rule and he just trolls them it's very funny
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's called the jump unit section it's not small I can't imagine you'll have difficulty locating it
Well you haven't quoted any page numbers.
Unusual Grenades is not located in the special rules section. Why is it a special rule? Did they put it in the wrong place in the book?
Because it's not a universal special rule as it only features once.
Also if sky borne is not a special rule then it applies to all units so I can jump land raiders non jump infantry and even imperial knights awesome
Also I'm not giving you the page number because you spent 18 pages arguing incorrectly about it on the rad grenade thread where you were given the page number so any pretence at not knowing it is trolling
It's quite simple really.
The breakout box "Basic vs Advanced" on page 13 tells you what basic and advanced rules are.
The first sentence straight up tells you " Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise."
Everything else is an advanced rule. Page references and sections don't really enter the equation.
Roknar wrote: It's quite simple really.
The breakout box "Basic vs Advanced" on page 13 tells you what basic and advanced rules are.
The first sentence straight up tells you " Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise."
Everything else is an advanced rule. Page references and sections don't really enter the equation.
Yea?
What about this?
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike,a swarm or even a tank)."
The advanced rules for "not normal infantry models" are located in the Unit Type section (e.g. bikes, jetbikes, artillery, jump models, jet pack models, monstrous creatures, beasts, tanks, chariots, characters, etc.).
1. The data sheet stats this for the unit section in the codex.
This refers to the unit type rules in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. For example, a unit may be classed as Infantry, Cavalry or Vehicle, which will subject it to a number of rules regarding movement, shooting, assaults, etc.
Basic vs advanced tells us "Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise."
The codex is telling us that the unit types section contain the rules for movement, shooting, assaults, which are basic rules per basic vs advanced.
You are confused here. Not all the rules that can apply to a specific model's movement, shooting, assault, morale, etc.are basic rules. The basic rules for movement, shooting, assault, and morale are located only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
Any rules that apply to a specific model's movement, shooting, assault, morale that are not in the Core Rules section and depart from those basic rules in the Core Rules section are advanced rules by definition.
So all the rules in the Unit Type section are advanced rules by definition since that section contains all the rules for unit types except for the basic infantry type. Only the basic infantry type is a basic rule.
Ceann wrote: 2. The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
This is the part I really need help with them.
I pull up my Necron Night Scythe and it said it was a flyer, I searched the entire codex but I couldn't find the rules for flying. It tells me to check the BRB. Now I couldn't remember where in the BRB to find them, so I checked the index.
The index told me to go to page 13 of the BRB, when I got to page 13 of the BRB it told me to check the codex for advanced rules.
Can you tell me how to locate advanced rules? I am following exactly what the books tell me to do and I can't find them.
The Army List Entry rule allows you to look anywhere for an advanced rule, so anywhere in the BRB and anywhere in any 40k publication.
The unit type for flyer is not the unit type for basic infantry so you know not to look in the Core Rules section since that section contains only basic rules.
The Unit Type section contains advanced rules for anything not basic infantry so you know to go there. In the Unit Type section there is a 'flyer' unit type. Easy.
Or alternatively you can simply check the index for 'flyer'. It tells you to go to page 84.
Roknar wrote: It's quite simple really.
The breakout box "Basic vs Advanced" on page 13 tells you what basic and advanced rules are.
The first sentence straight up tells you " Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise."
Everything else is an advanced rule. Page references and sections don't really enter the equation.
Yea?
What about this?
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
Cool. You just pointed out where Army List Entries are located. An Army List Entry merely indicates the advanced rules that a unit has. An Army List Entry does not necessarily contain the advanced rules.
The advanced rules that the Army List Entry refers to can be found anywhere in the BRB or any 40k publication.
Ceann wrote: 1. Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles
So everything that is in here is a core rule?
Is that correct?
(I am going to interpret that by 'core rule' you mean 'basic rule')
Not necessarly. The logic of this statement . . .
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles
. . . is only indicating that ALL of the basic rules are in the Core Rules section. It is not saying that there is nothing but basic rules in the Core Rules section.
The Core Rules section could contain an advanced rule or two - probably in the psychic phase rules. We just know that ALL of the basic rules in the BRB are in the Core Rules section.
Well a rule cannot be a basic rule AND an advanced rule.
Since ALL basic rules are located in the core rule section, therefore ALL basic rules are in the core rule section, since it says ALL we have to assume that every single rule in the core section is a basic rule.
Ceann wrote: Well a rule cannot be a basic rule AND an advanced rule.
Since ALL basic rules are located in the core rule section, therefore ALL basic rules are in the core rule section, since it says ALL we have to assume that every single rule in the core section is a basic rule.
Do you disagree with this?
That is not what the statement is logically saying.
The Core Rules section has ALL the basic rules. That is what we know. But the statement is NOT saying that there is nothing but basic rules in the Core Rules section.
Ceann wrote: Well a rule cannot be a basic rule AND an advanced rule.
Since ALL basic rules are located in the core rule section, therefore ALL basic rules are in the core rule section, since it says ALL we have to assume that every single rule in the core section is a basic rule.
Do you disagree with this?
That's something you bring up often it seems.
Consider X is the set of all basic rules in the core rules and O the set of all stuff that isn't a basic rule. And let [ ] be the entirety of the core rules section.
Now consider these examples.: A) [X], B) [XO]
The statement " Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles",
is true for Both A and , despite B also having other stuff in the core rules and thus not everything in the core rules section being a basic rule.
We have two statements. From the same section of rules.
1.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike,a swarm or even a tank).
I don't see any mention of the Unit Types section here. I also do not see where it tells you to find advanced rules. Can you highlight in red for me where it tells you to look at the Unit Types section?
2.
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
I don't see any reference to the unit types section here either. But it looks like it does tell me where to find advanced rules.
Can you explain to me how you are following RAW for the #1 and RAW for #2?
I just really want to make sure I know how to find these rules correctly.
So just to get to the crux of this argument on the first page, if not second;
Col assumes that this statement emboldened in red above, specifically "bike" and "tank", means you then make the jump to unit types since bike is a unit type and tanks is a vehicle. This is not surprising since he made the same assumption with the word "grenades" in the wargear entry for rad grenades. However, he conveniently leaves out "swarm" of the above part because it doesn't contribute to his desired narrative. IIRC since I am not home yet, swarm is not a unit type, but a special rule. So therefore, the above emboldened text cannot be an indicator of unit types, but much more likely a description of models that just have advanced rules that apply to them that happen to be "a bike" or "a tank" or "a swarm". Of course, I would need examples of this right?
Sammael on Corvex: Not a normal infantry model, IC jetBIKE
Logan on Stormrider: Not a normal infantry model, IC TANK
As for SWARM, the little bugs from Nids and beetles from Necron seem to fit that bill as not being normal infantry models. Note, that all these models have advanced rules.
Just a different perspective on what the emboldened above statement can mean, besides col-impact's fascination words that he thinks are actual important so he hinges his whole argument on them without actually reading them.
If a rule is an advanced rule, advanced rules supersede basic rules. An advanced rule can never be a basic rule.
I understand your X and O example.
However we are not told while reading the book, how to separate X from O in order to determine the quantity of X is accurate and quantity of O is accurate.
The criteria that Col is using to determine what is and is not an advanced rule is not specific enough for you to be able to do this.
The only way to determine that the quantity of X is accurate is by all rules in the section being X.
We have two statements. From the same section of rules.
1.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike,a swarm or even a tank).
I don't see any mention of the Unit Types section here. I also do not see where it tells you to find advanced rules. Can you highlight in red for me where it tells you to look at the Unit Types section?
2.
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
I don't see any reference to the unit types section here either. But it looks like it does tell me where to find advanced rules.
Can you explain to me how you are following RAW for the #1 and RAW for #2?
I just really want to make sure I know how to find these rules correctly.
So just to get to the crux of this argument on the first page, if not second;
Col assumes that this statement emboldened in red above, specifically "bike" and "tank", means you then make the jump to unit types since bike is a unit type and tanks is a vehicle. This is not surprising since he made the same assumption with the word "grenades" in the wargear entry for rad grenades. However, he conveniently leaves out "swarm" of the above part because it doesn't contribute to his desired narrative. IIRC since I am not home yet, swarm is not a unit type, but a special rule. So therefore, the above emboldened text cannot be an indicator of unit types, but much more likely a description of models that just have advanced rules that apply to them that happen to be "a bike" or "a tank" or "a swarm". Of course, I would need examples of this right?
Sammael on Corvex: Not a normal infantry model, IC jetBIKE
Logan on Stormrider: Not a normal infantry model, IC TANK
As for SWARM, the little bugs from Nids and beetles from Necron seem to fit that bill as not being normal infantry models. Note, that all these models have advanced rules.
Just a different perspective on what the emboldened above statement can mean, besides col-impact's fascination words that he thinks are actual important so he hinges his whole argument on them without actually reading them.
A boltgun, and "unusual skills" are also not unit types.
Ceann wrote: So we get to decide which rules in the core rules section are basic rules or not?
If the entire section does not encompass strictly basic rules, how are we supposed to sort them?
The topic of the Core Rules section is basic rules.
So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game.
So we can assume the discussion of rules in the Core Rules section centers around basic rules as the driving topic. This means that it will be the norm that basic rules show up, and that it will be the exceptional case where an advanced rule shows up in the Core Rules section, if any do at all.
The rules are also not telling us that unit types is where advanced rules are located, nor are specific models located in unit types.
Why are you leaping to that conclusion?
By your very same logic, there can be basic rules in the Unit Types section, if there can be Advanced rules in the Core rules section.
The core rules section has been given a quantity of "all" for the basic rules.
So any rule involved with the basic rules is therefore also a basic rule.
Ceann wrote: If a rule is an advanced rule, advanced rules supersede basic rules. An advanced rule can never be a basic rule.
I understand your X and O example.
However we are not told while reading the book, how to separate X from O in order to determine the quantity of X is accurate and quantity of O is accurate.
The criteria that Col is using to determine what is and is not an advanced rule is not specific enough for you to be able to do this.
Yes you are, it's in the break out box on page 13.
Ceann wrote: If a rule is an advanced rule, advanced rules supersede basic rules. An advanced rule can never be a basic rule.
I understand your X and O example.
However we are not told while reading the book, how to separate X from O in order to determine the quantity of X is accurate and quantity of O is accurate.
The criteria that Col is using to determine what is and is not an advanced rule is not specific enough for you to be able to do this.
Yes you are, it's in the break out box on page 13.
1.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a
special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability
to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader
or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike,
a swarm or even a tank).
2.
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games
Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
Explain this to me Roknar.
How is 1, more accurate than 2?
How can 2, state it applies to UNITS, but we are using critera for 1, that states it applies to SPECIFIC MODELS, rather than 2 to UNITS, in the UNIT TYPE, section?
I am having a bit of trouble understanding how we are making this leap.
Which of these is a specific model?
Unit 1
1 Tactical Marine Sargent model
4 Tactical Marines models
So just to get to the crux of this argument on the first page, if not second;
Col assumes that this statement emboldened in red above, specifically "bike" and "tank", means you then make the jump to unit types since bike is a unit type and tanks is a vehicle. This is not surprising since he made the same assumption with the word "grenades" in the wargear entry for rad grenades. However, he conveniently leaves out "swarm" of the above part because it doesn't contribute to his desired narrative. IIRC since I am not home yet, swarm is not a unit type, but a special rule. So therefore, the above emboldened text cannot be an indicator of unit types, but much more likely a description of models that just have advanced rules that apply to them that happen to be "a bike" or "a tank" or "a swarm". Of course, I would need examples of this right?
Sammael on Corvex: Not a normal infantry model, IC jetBIKE
Logan on Stormrider: Not a normal infantry model, IC TANK
As for SWARM, the little bugs from Nids and beetles from Necron seem to fit that bill as not being normal infantry models. Note, that all these models have advanced rules.
Just a different perspective on what the emboldened above statement can mean, besides col-impact's fascination words that he thinks are actual important so he hinges his whole argument on them without actually reading them.
I am not assuming anything. Where you find the rules for "not normal infantry models" is in the Unit Types section.
Spoiler:
Unit Types
So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game. However, whilst the definition of Infantry is incredibly broad (it can cover anything from the most diminutive Gretchin to the mightiest Space Marine), it’s not enough to capture the full variety, scope and splendour of a war-torn galaxy teeming with all manner of alien beasts.
To do justice to the full pomp and panoply of xenos creatures (as well as some of the weirder beings in service to the Emperor of Mankind), we will now cover a series of unit types, each with their own abilities and special rules. Vehicles are distinct enough to require their own section later on.
A not normal infantry model?
That is an advanced rule that applies to a specific model.
We would find that in a Codex, in the army list entry, where we are told to find advanced rules.
There we can find independent characters, hero's, or sergeants who are not normal infantry models.
You find the rules for Infantry models on page 62 of the unit types section.
So just to get to the crux of this argument on the first page, if not second;
Col assumes that this statement emboldened in red above, specifically "bike" and "tank", means you then make the jump to unit types since bike is a unit type and tanks is a vehicle. This is not surprising since he made the same assumption with the word "grenades" in the wargear entry for rad grenades. However, he conveniently leaves out "swarm" of the above part because it doesn't contribute to his desired narrative. IIRC since I am not home yet, swarm is not a unit type, but a special rule. So therefore, the above emboldened text cannot be an indicator of unit types, but much more likely a description of models that just have advanced rules that apply to them that happen to be "a bike" or "a tank" or "a swarm". Of course, I would need examples of this right?
Sammael on Corvex: Not a normal infantry model, IC jetBIKE
Logan on Stormrider: Not a normal infantry model, IC TANK
As for SWARM, the little bugs from Nids and beetles from Necron seem to fit that bill as not being normal infantry models. Note, that all these models have advanced rules.
Just a different perspective on what the emboldened above statement can mean, besides col-impact's fascination words that he thinks are actual important so he hinges his whole argument on them without actually reading them.
I am not assuming anything. Where you find the rules for "not normal infantry models" is in the Unit Types section.
Spoiler:
Unit Types
So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game. However, whilst the definition of Infantry is incredibly broad (it can cover anything from the most diminutive Gretchin to the mightiest Space Marine), it’s not enough to capture the full variety, scope and splendour of a war-torn galaxy teeming with all manner of alien beasts.
To do justice to the full pomp and panoply of xenos creatures (as well as some of the weirder beings in service to the Emperor of Mankind), we will now cover a series of unit types, each with their own abilities and special rules. Vehicles are distinct enough to require their own section later on.
You linked a spoiler that has does not have "not normal infantry models" in the text at all. And you completely dismissed the four examples I gave you that fit the bill for "not normal infantry models" much better then the downward facing dog pose you just tried to commit by stretch them to Unit Types.
I just gave you prime examples of what the BRB much more likely means by "not normal infantry models" than your assumption. Please address it.
How can 2, state it applies to UNITS, but we are using critera for 1, that states it applies to SPECIFIC MODELS, rather than 2 to UNITS, in the UNIT TYPE, section?
You are getting confused about the difference between units and models and are forcing a false dichotomy between the usage of the two when the BRB often interchanges their usage. The topic of Unit Type is a topic that is about models and the unit that comprises those models.
Unit Types
This section explores all the different unit types that describe your models.
In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section.
A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, a tank, a war engine or a rampaging monster, is also considered to be a unit in its own right.
In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model falls into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile, you’ll be able to find that information in the relevant codex or Army List Entry.
In addition to their unit type, some models might also be noted as being characters.
'Unit' and 'model' are used in the appropriate context in the Unit Type section. The Unit Type section freely switches between discussing 'units' and 'models' and is not confined to discussing just models or just units.
Spoiler:
JUMP UNITS
Jump units are equipped with jump packs, wings, teleport devices or other means of moving quickly over short distances. Unlike most other unit type categories, ‘Jump’ is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you’ll find it occurs before another category – commonly Infantry, sometimes Monstrous Creatures and perhaps, rarely, other things. Jump units therefore share two sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.
Jump units can use their jump packs once each turn to move more swiftly in either the Movement phase or the Assault phase – they cannot use their jump packs in both phases in the same turn. If not using its jump pack, a model moves as a normal model of its type. Indeed, a Jump unit can always choose to move as a normal model of their type if they wish. Note that the entire unit must always use the same form of movement. Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
SKYBORNE
When using its jump pack (whether moving, charging or Falling Back, as we’ll discuss in a moment) a model can move over all other models and all terrain freely. However, if the model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test.
Jump models cannot end their move on top of other models and can only end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the models on top of it. If they do this, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain.
MOVEMENT PHASE
If a Jump model uses its jump pack (or equivalent) in the Movement phase, it can move up to 12".
ASSAULT PHASE
If a Jump model uses its jump pack to charge into assault, it can re-roll its chargedistance.
Furthermore, to represent the crushing impact of such a charge, a model that uses its jump pack to charge gains the Hammer of Wrath special rule for the remainder of the turn.
FALL BACK MOVES
Jump units always use their jump packs when Falling Back, and their Fall Back moves are 3D6", even if they already used their jump pack to move that turn.
SPECIAL RULES
Jump units have the Bulky and Deep Strike special rules.
A not normal infantry model?
That is an advanced rule that applies to a specific model.
We would find that in a Codex, in the army list entry, where we are told to find advanced rules.
There we can find independent characters, hero's, or sergeants who are not normal infantry models.
You find the rules for Infantry models on page 62 of the unit types section.
The Army List Entry only indicates the advanced rules that apply to a unit or specific model. Those advanced rules are not necessarily contained in the Army List Entry.
An Army List Entry can point to advanced rules that can be found anywhere in the BRB or in any 40k publication
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote: Col, I am getting EXTREMELY confused.
Let me explain to you why.
The Unit Type for Infantry is accounted for on the first page of the Unit Type section.
So are Infantry an advanced rule or a basic rule?
You told me there are no basic rules here.
No actual rules for basic infantry are in the Unit Type section. They are just mentioned by the Unit Type section as already covered by the Core Rules section.
Infantry are the most common and dependable units in Warhammer 40,000. As the bulk of the rules are concerned with them, there are no additional rules to present here.
A not normal infantry model?
That is an advanced rule that applies to a specific model.
We would find that in a Codex, in the army list entry, where we are told to find advanced rules.
There we can find independent characters, hero's, or sergeants who are not normal infantry models.
You find the rules for Infantry models on page 62 of the unit types section.
The Army List Entry only indicates the advanced rules that apply to a unit or specific model. Those advanced rules are not necessarily contained in the Army List Entry.
An Army List Entry can point to advanced rules that can be found anywhere in the BRB or in any 40k publication
So is the infantry unit type, a basic rule or an advanced rule?
The codex tells me this...
This refers to the unit type rules in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. For example, a unit may be classed as Infantry.
This means infantry are an advanced rule right?
The codex told me to find the rules here.
So is the infantry unit type, a basic rule or an advanced rule?
The codex tells me this...
This refers to the unit type rules in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. For example, a unit may be classed as Infantry.
This means infantry are an advanced rule right?
The codex told me to find the rules here.
The infantry rules are basic rules.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
The Unit Type section will point you to the basic rules in the Core Rules section. So if you start off in the Unit Types section (which is an advanced rule section) you will be directed there to the Core Rules section.
Spoiler:
So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game. However, whilst the definition of Infantry is incredibly broad (it can cover anything from the most diminutive Gretchin to the mightiest Space Marine), it’s not enough to capture the full variety, scope and splendour of a war-torn galaxy teeming with all manner of alien beasts.
To do justice to the full pomp and panoply of xenos creatures (as well as some of the weirder beings in service to the Emperor of Mankind), we will now cover a series of unit types, each with their own abilities and special rules. Vehicles are distinct enough to require their own section later on.
Spoiler:
INFANTRY
Infantry units include all types of foot soldiers, whether human or alien. A typical unit of Infantry is between five and ten models strong but they can be much larger.
In rare cases, an Infantry unit may comprise only a single model. Infantry are fairly slow moving, but can cross almost any terrain (given enough time) and make the best use of cover to avoid enemy fire.
Infantry are the most common and dependable units in Warhammer 40,000. As the bulk of the rules are concerned with them, there are no additional rules to present here.
An advanced rule or a basic rule?
It is located in the section you told me contained only advanced rules.
I need to know if the type is a basic rule or an advanced rule.
I am not asking about where to find the rules for infantry.
An advanced rule or a basic rule?
It is located in the section you told me contained only advanced rules.
I need to know if the type is a basic rule or an advanced rule.
I am not asking about where to find the rules for infantry.
Ceann wrote: Do you know what the word pertain means Col?
IF they have discussed the rules as they pertain to infantry, SO FAR.
That means they are about to tell us the basic rules as they pertain to things that are not infantry.
No that does not logically follow at all. All that it means is that "they have discussed the basic rules as they pertain to infantry, so far" - they can tell us whatever they want from that point on.
Remember . . .
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
The Unit Types section does not have any basic rules in it.
Mr. Shine wrote: Is it not simply the case that Infantry as a unit type is an advanced rule that defers to basic rules?
No, because his entire basis for an argument is contingent upon no basic rules existing outside of the Core Rules section.
His standard for what the basic rules are is driven from this idea that Infantry are the standard for basic rules for "movement, assault, shooting, morale, etc"
So he has two decisions, right Col?
1.
Either we have a basic rule located outside of the core rules section.
2.
Or Infantry are also an advanced rule and cannot be the standard for basic rules.
Which is it Col?
Is the unit type Infantry and advanced rule or basic rule?
Mr. Shine wrote: Is it not simply the case that Infantry as a unit type is an advanced rule that defers to basic rules?
No, because his entire basis for an argument is contingent upon no basic rules existing outside of the Core Rules section.
His standard for what the basic rules are is driven from this idea that Infantry are the standard for basic rules for "movement, assault, shooting, morale, etc"
So he has two decisions, right Col?
1.
Either we have a basic rule located outside of the core rules section.
2.
Or Infantry are also an advanced rule and cannot be the standard for basic rules.
Which is it Col?
Why are you asking me? Let the rules answer you.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Unit Types
So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game.
Infantry are the most common and dependable units in Warhammer 40,000. As the bulk of the rules are concerned with them, there are no additional rules to present here.
There are no basic rules located outside the Core Rules section.
Ceann wrote: Is the unit type Infantry and advanced rule or basic rule?
There are two answers to this question.
1. Advanced rule
2. Basic rule
Answered for the third time. The infantry rules are basic rules.
Infantry being the default template has nothing to do with the infantry type being basic or advanced.
Infantry just happens to be the lowest common denominator to which no additional rules need to be added.
Infantry doesn't change anything from the basic principles, they even tell you that much.
Is the unit type Infantry and advanced rule or basic rule?
There are two answers to this question.
1. Advanced rule
2. Basic rule
Unit Type as a definition/category is a basic rule.
The infantry rules are basic rules.
The Unit Types section is comprised of advanced rules for unit types that "are not normal infantry"
Excellent.
So now we have a basic rule being discussed on a page outside of the core rules section.
We are not talking about any NEW rules, we are simply talking about rules that already exist.
Movement is a basic rule.
Lets look at the Core rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
Other Important Information
In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry
or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section.
MOVEMENT DISTANCE -
Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase. This represents MOST creatures moving at
a reasonable pace but stopping several times to scan the surrounding landscape for
enemies, communicate with their commanders, identify the best lines of advance and so
on.
Different Movement Distances Within a Unit -
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the
case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains
in unit coherency.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
A Beast unit can perform movement, shooting and close combat.
A Jump Pack Unit can perform movement, shooting and close combat
Etc.
All rules pertaining to something from the basic rules section are references, just like the Unit Type Infantry references them too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Roknar wrote: Infantry being the default template has nothing to do with the infantry type being basic or advanced.
Infantry just happens to be the lowest common denominator to which no additional rules need to be added.
Infantry doesn't change anything from the basic principles, they even tell you that much.
Please explain.
1.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a
special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability
to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader
or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike,
a swarm or even a tank).
2.
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games
Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
Explain this to me Roknar.
How is 1, more accurate than 2?
How can 2, state it applies to UNITS, but we are using critera for 1, that states it applies to SPECIFIC MODELS, rather than 2 to UNITS, in the UNIT TYPE, section?
I am having a bit of trouble understanding how we are making this leap.
Which of these is a specific model?
Unit 1
1 Tactical Marine Sargent model
4 Tactical Marines models
So now we have a basic rule being discussed on a page outside of the core rules section.
You are getting hopelessly confused here. Mentioning does not entail containing.
There are no basic rules outside of the Core Rules section. Mentioning 'infantry' does not bring the basic rules that are required to be in the Core Rules section into the Unit Types section. Those basic rules for Infantry stay in the Core Rules section and are contained in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
Unit Types
So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry [i.e. in the Core Rules section], the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game.
Infantry are the most common and dependable units in Warhammer 40,000. As the bulk of the rules are concerned with them, there are no additional rules to present here.
So now we have a basic rule being discussed on a page outside of the core rules section.
You are getting hopelessly confused here.
There are no basic rules outside of the Core Rules section. Mentioning 'infantry' does not bring the basic rules that are required to be in the Core Rules section into the Unit Types section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
Unit Types
So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game.
Infantry are the most common and dependable units in Warhammer 40,000. As the bulk of the rules are concerned with them, there are no additional rules to present here.
No.
I am 100% not confused.
You are sir.
Movement is a basic rule, shooting is a basic rule, assaulting is a basic rule, morale is a basic rule, psyker powers are basic rules.
They are all located in the core rules section.
The rules located in the Unit Types section are just exactly that, Unit types. Unit types are explained in the core rules section.
The rules for movement, shooting, assaulting, morale etc that apply to different unit types are being explained.
All basic rules are still located in the core rules section.
What is discussed in the Unit Types section does not involve any NEW rules.
Basic vs advanced states this...
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
All rules located in the Unit Types section are for the above mentioned basic rules.
There are no new rules attempting to be presented in the unit types section.
It is merely providing you the unit profiles.
Just like if you flip to the back of the BRB you are provided the profiles for psyker powers. Those are not new rules, they are simply the profiles for rules located in the core rules section.
Another basic rule is choosing a weapon to shoot. The weaponry section profiles provides for the purpose of choosing a weapon, which is a basic rule, no new rules are mentioned.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
GodDamUser wrote: I do feel Ceann is chasing a dead end here.. the point he is fishing for is just not there...
I feel like you are trying to meaninglessly gloat and don't actually know the rules.
Sorry for trying to teach you.
The unit types section is chock-full of new rules.
Bikes cannot go to ground for example, that is a departure from the basic rules which state that you can go to ground.
They can move 12", that to is a departure from the default 6" inch and presents a change to the basic rules.
Aka, they are advanced rules that take precedence over the basic rules.
Or more simply put, the rules for models with the bike type do not apply to all models in the game.
By definition, they can't be basic rules.
What is discussed in the Unit Types section does not involve any NEW rules.
Dude, you are still hopelessly confused.
The Unit Types section is all new rules.
This section describes the different types of units that can wage war in the 41st Millennium and the rules you will need to use them.
And the Unit Types section is all advanced rules.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
So the advanced rules in the Unit Type section will override any basic rules for infantry.
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
A jump unit that is granted 12" movement overrides the basic infantry rule for 6" movement.
Roknar wrote: The unit types section is chock-full of new rules.
Bikes cannot go to ground for example, that is a departure from the basic rules which state that you can go to ground.
They can move 12", that to is a departure from the default 6" inch and presents a change to the basic rules.
Aka, they are advanced rules that take precedence over the basic rules.
Roknar wrote: The unit types section is chock-full of new rules.
Bikes cannot go to ground for example, that is a departure from the basic rules which state that you can go to ground.
They can move 12", that to is a departure from the default 6" inch and presents a change to the basic rules.
Aka, they are advanced rules that take precedence over the basic rules.
Where are you finding that basic movement = 6"?
Page 18, Movement Distance:
"Models move up to 6" in the movement phase."
I'm on holiday and don't have my books, but it seems to me Ceann from what's been said that you're getting hung up on there being a mention of Infantry amongst part of the rules we're told are advanced rules, when that mention simply states it's already been dealt with in the Core Rules section and are basic rules.
If that's the case then I don't think the fact there is a mention in an advanced rules section, which refers back to it being dealt with already in the basic rules, therefore makes it an advanced rule, or both an advanced and a basic rule.
Roknar wrote: The unit types section is chock-full of new rules.
Bikes cannot go to ground for example, that is a departure from the basic rules which state that you can go to ground.
They can move 12", that to is a departure from the default 6" inch and presents a change to the basic rules.
Aka, they are advanced rules that take precedence over the basic rules.
Where are you finding that basic movement = 6"?
Page 18, Movement Distance:
"Models move up to 6" in the movement phase."
Cool. Thats great.
What else does page 18 say?
Different Movement Distances Within a Unit
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the
case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains
in unit coherency.
6" is the minimum value for unit movement. There is no unit that has a default value under 6"
You are not TOLD that 6" is the default value, ANYWHERE. You assume that without even reading the rest of the page.
Does a bike use the movement rules to move more than 6"?
Yes?
Then it is using the movement rules, which are a basic rule. The basic rules do NOT consist purely of the value "6".
Mr. Shine wrote: I'm on holiday and don't have my books, but it seems to me Ceann from what's been said that you're getting hung up on there being a mention of Infantry amongst part of the rules we're told are advanced rules, when that mention simply states it's already been dealt with in the Core Rules section and are basic rules.
If that's the case then I don't think the fact there is a mention in an advanced rules section, which refers back to it being dealt with already in the basic rules, therefore makes it an advanced rule, or both an advanced and a basic rule.
"Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase" is pretty cut and dry.
You quoted different movement distances within a unit.
That's explaining how to handle different speeds in the same unit.
It doesn't affect the previous statement of models moving 6", meaning ALL models.
Well maybe you should chip in instead of /popcorn?
Everyone has this standard that somehow the infantry rules are the standard for all the basic rules. This is fabricated from the fact that the rules use infantry as the examples to explain the rules
People are focused on you saying movement and going...
Movement = 6"
Movement does not = 6"
Movement = The movement phase. All of the basic rules PERTAINING to movement are in the movement phase section. You don't get to cherry pick 6" out of and ignore the rest of it.
You are told in the movement pages that other units move at different movement values, you are told this specifically and explicitly.
Movement = 6"
Movement = 12"
These use the EXACT SAME RULES to perform the task.
Ceann wrote: No, it really isn't. I am just dealing with some very dense opinions.
So what I stated was not the case, and the mention of Infantry outside of the Core Rules section in the Unit Types section, which is a section of advanced rules, doesn't say something along the lines of having been dealt with in the basic rules/Core Rules section?
I'm trying to engage here, fresh and untarnished from the other thread and mudslinging, so it'd be nice if you did me the courtesy of actually engaging back.
Roknar wrote: "Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase" is pretty cut and dry.
You quoted different movement distances within a unit.
That's explaining how to handle different speeds in the same unit.
It doesn't affect the previous statement of models moving 6", meaning ALL models.
Sigh...
Do you even look at your rulebook man?
Or do you just read the 5 words like Col does.
""""""""""""For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by
far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.""""""""""""
That is on the first page of the movement phase man. I don't know what else to tell you. It tells you that its going to talk about infantry now and that its going to talk about other things later. This is in the core rules section. In fact you would have had to read this if you hadn't just skipped to "movement = 6" and used that as your answer.
Read the entire chapter and then come back and tell me how I am wrong, not read a one liner.
Ceann wrote: No, it really isn't. I am just dealing with some very dense opinions.
So what I stated was not the case, and the mention of Infantry outside of the Core Rules section in the Unit Types section, which is a section of advanced rules, doesn't say something along the lines of having been dealt with in the basic rules/Core Rules section?
I'm trying to engage here, fresh and untarnished from the other thread and mudslinging, so it'd be nice if you did me the courtesy of actually engaging back.
Here is the issue.
You have people running under this assumption that the STANDARD for movement, shooting, assault, morale, all basic rules etc. Is an Infantry Unit.
They are then therefore asserting that all of the rules located in the unit type section, rather than being the profiles for how those units use the basic rules, are instead advanced rules.
So they are saying a bike moving 12" is an advanced rule. etc.
It boils down to this to them saying.
movement = 6' is a basic rule
movement = 7+ is an advanced rule
They disregard that unit types are mentioned in the core rules, that they are stated that they are an extension of the units profile, or that pages that reference them in the core rules are not basic rules.
Ceann wrote: Well maybe you should chip in instead of /popcorn?
I'm at work at the moment so don't have the rulebook on hand. So I am not gonna directly try to influence the argument when I don't have the rule to quote
But I am enjoying the popcorn, and you two seem to be throwing around a lot of rule book quotes.. but at this stage in the argument from what I have been reading, you are losing this argument.. and are resorting to the same tactic that Col uses of just repeating yourself.
I am suggesting you change up your argument to show what you are saying from different angles
Ceann wrote: Well maybe you should chip in instead of /popcorn?
Everyone has this standard that somehow the infantry rules are the standard for all the basic rules. This is fabricated from the fact that the rules use infantry as the examples to explain the rules
People are focused on you saying movement and going...
Movement = 6"
Movement does not = 6"
Movement = The movement phase. All of the basic rules PERTAINING to movement are in the movement phase section. You don't get to cherry pick 6" out of and ignore the rest of it.
You are told in the movement pages that other units move at different movement values, you are told this specifically and explicitly.
Movement = 6"
Movement = 12"
These use the EXACT SAME RULES to perform the task.
You are NOT told that units move at different speeds as a rule. At least not in the way you think
You are misinterpreting the paragraph about models moving at different speeds within the same unit.
All models move up to 6" as a basic rule. A rule that is changed by many units.
That paragraph is telling you what to do when you have models with different speeds in the same unit.
Which is a situation that all models can find themselves in and needs to be dealt with in the core rules.
The core rules are't blind to the fact that advanced rules exist and can change them.
That doesn't magically turn advanced rules into basic rules.
So they are saying a bike moving 12" is an advanced rule. etc.
It boils down to this to them saying.
movement = 6' is a basic rule
movement = 7+ is an advanced rule
They disregard that unit types are mentioned in the core rules, that they are stated that they are an extension of the units profile, or that pages that reference them in the core rules are not basic rules.
Well they are saying that the Basic Rule for movement is 6" (not feet), the basic rule for moment makes mention that there are units that don't use the Basic movement and are mentioned elsewhere.
Which would make them Advance rules as they are not in the Core Rules section...
The Core Rules mentions the unit types but doesn't go into Detail, unlike the Units section of the book which is not the Core Rules
You have people running under this assumption that the STANDARD for movement, shooting, assault, morale, all basic rules etc. Is an Infantry Unit.
They are then therefore asserting that all of the rules located in the unit type section, rather than being the profiles for how those units use the basic rules, are instead advanced rules.
So they are saying a bike moving 12" is an advanced rule. etc.
It boils down to this to them saying.
movement = 6' is a basic rule
movement = 7+ is an advanced rule
They disregard that unit types are mentioned in the core rules, that they are stated that they are an extension of the units profile, or that pages that reference them in the core rules are not basic rules.
It seems to me that the Core Rules are the standard, which we are told Infantry simply adhere to.
I understand from the other thread part of your argument may be that the Core Rules tells us that all models will have a unit type and therefore you say the various Unit Types must be basic rules, but what would you say to the idea that having a unit type may be a basic rule, but that the Unit Types themselves introduce advanced rules by virtue of breaking various other basic rules, either by applying special rules to models of a given Unit Type, or for example by directly changing movement values from that introduced in the Core Rules?
Lets do this.
Assume I am correct. For argument's sake.
Now ask me whatever questions I need to provide answers to, for you to be convinced of what I am saying is correct. The methods I have been trying to use have obviously been not effective.
Because I don't know what criteria you are using to come your conclusion.
They disregard that unit types are mentioned in the core rules, that they are stated that they are an extension of the units profile, or that pages that reference them in the core rules are not basic rules.
'Mentioning' does not entail 'containing'. The actual rules need to be in the Core Rules section for them to be basic rules.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
Any rules that are movement abilities for specific models that are not in Core Rules section are not basic rules. They are advanced rules.
You have people running under this assumption that the STANDARD for movement, shooting, assault, morale, all basic rules etc. Is an Infantry Unit.
They are then therefore asserting that all of the rules located in the unit type section, rather than being the profiles for how those units use the basic rules, are instead advanced rules.
So they are saying a bike moving 12" is an advanced rule. etc.
It boils down to this to them saying.
movement = 6' is a basic rule
movement = 7+ is an advanced rule
They disregard that unit types are mentioned in the core rules, that they are stated that they are an extension of the units profile, or that pages that reference them in the core rules are not basic rules.
It seems to me that the Core Rules are the standard, which we are told Infantry simply adhere to.
I understand from the other thread part of your argument may be that the Core Rules tells us that all models will have a unit type and therefore you say the various Unit Types must be basic rules, but what would you say to the idea that having a unit type may be a basic rule, but that the Unit Types themselves introduce advanced rules by virtue of breaking various other basic rules, either by applying special rules to models of a given Unit Type, or for example by directly changing movement values from that introduced in the Core Rules?
What information do I need to provide to you, in order for you consider my point of view?
So they are saying a bike moving 12" is an advanced rule. etc.
It boils down to this to them saying.
movement = 6' is a basic rule
movement = 7+ is an advanced rule
They disregard that unit types are mentioned in the core rules, that they are stated that they are an extension of the units profile, or that pages that reference them in the core rules are not basic rules.
Well they are saying that the Basic Rule for movement is 6" (not feet), the basic rule for moment makes mention that there are units that don't use the Basic movement and are mentioned elsewhere.
Which would make them Advance rules as they are not in the Core Rules section...
The Core Rules mentions the unit types but doesn't go into Detail, unlike the Units section of the book which is not the Core Rules
Exactly. Where are the rules actually contained? If the rules are contained in the Core Rules section then they are almost assuredly basic rules. If they rules are not in the Core Rules section then they are advanced rules.
That's another points I'd like to address.
People are not saying that the basic rules are built on infantry.
The opposite is true.
Infantry rules are based on the basic rules, as are all types, except that infantry rules don't add or change any of the basic rules.
Ceann wrote: What information do I need to provide to you, in order for you consider my point of view?
That I am offering a counter-argument in direct reference to what you're saying evidences that I am considering your point of view. Could you please respond to my counter-point suggesting that all models simply having a unit type is the basic rule, while the specific unit types themselves apply advanced rules?
Indeed, it seem to me this is the only way we can resolve the following quote:
"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."
Because if being a Bike, Swarm or Tank model is a basic rule, it cannot apply as an advanced rule as we are told above. It also accords with the rules telling us all basic rules are found in the Core Rules section, because that too would not work if the actual rules for Unit Types were found outside of the Core Rules section (which of course they are not).
They disregard that unit types are mentioned in the core rules, that they are stated that they are an extension of the units profile, or that pages that reference them in the core rules are not basic rules.
Mentioning does not entail containing. The actual rules need to be in the Core Rules section for them to be basic rules.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
Any rules that are movement abilities for specific models that are not in Core Rules section are not basic rules. They are advanced rules.
This is incorrect Col.
You are using Basic vs Advanced to justify that you are correct. That is the rule section you are using.
Does basic vs advanced TELL YOU to use the unit type section and that those are all advanced rules?
No.
It gives you an odd jumble of descriptive factors that do not clearly identify what it is talking about. You are taking that ball and running with it as hard as you can.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
Is movement a basic rule? Yes.
Is assaulting a basic rule? Yes.
Is shooting a basic rule? Yes.
is morale a basic rule? Yes.
Are all of these located somewhere in the unit type section? Yes.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise.
Has it been stated otherwise? Anywhere?
Is Tank Shock a movement rule?
Yes. "declare how many inches the vehicle is going to move"
Is Thrustmove a movement rule?
Yes. "can move up to 2d6"
So you are claiming that in Basic vs Advanced.
Out of these 3 statements.
That 1 is MORE CLEAR than 2 or 3?
1.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability
to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
2.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules or morale.
3.
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games
Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex. Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
If anything 1. is the MOST VAGUE out of all these statements and should be the last one you consider when identifying what is and is not an advanced rule.
You are taking a vaguely worded sentence and using it to conflate it however you wish.
Ceann wrote: What information do I need to provide to you, in order for you consider my point of view?
That I am offering a counter-argument in direct reference to what you're saying evidences that I am considering your point of view. Could you please respond to my counter-point suggesting that all models simply having a unit type is the basic rule, while the specific unit types themselves apply advanced rules?
Indeed, it seem to me this is the only way we can resolve the following quote:
"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."
Because if being a Bike, Swarm or Tank model is a basic rule, it cannot apply as an advanced rule as we are told above. It also accords with the rules telling us all basic rules are found in the Core Rules section, because that too would not work if the actual rules for Unit Types were found outside of the Core Rules section (which of course they are not).
Note that the line you are quoting talks about SPECIFIC MODELS, not Units.
Why are we taking a line that talks about models and conflating it to Units?
If you want me to explain what that term means... a boltgun = a combi melta, unusual skills = IWND, or a medicpack for FNP, unit leader = sargeant or an IC, not normal infantry models = swarm special rule, a tank and bike have relentless and/or splitfire. Infantry by default have NO special rules. Ex. Beasts have Fleet, a Vehicle relentless.
That phrase is just descriptive, I would say it implies special rules, options and wargear that are available to specific models in a unit. For example if you have a unit of infantry and an IC joins who has shroud, they would gain shroud, because of a specific model. But if the IC joined a unit that had shroud, he would gain it. The different being the ability being sourced from a unit or sourced from an individual model. In each circumstance if you nearly kill the entire unit, shroud is still there, but in the other if you just kill the IC, it goes away.
If you want me to explain what that term means... a boltgun = a combi melta, unusual skills = IWND, or a medicpack for FNP, unit leader = sargeant or an IC, not normal infantry models = swarm special rule, a tank and bike have relentless and/or splitfire. Infantry by default have NO special rules. Ex. Beasts have Fleet, a Vehicle relentless.
This is ridiculously bad argumentation. How are you expecting us to accept that the BRB would mean 'combi-melta' when it wrote 'boltgun' or 'relentless' when it wrote 'tank'?
If you can't accept what the rules actually say then your argument has no rule support and you should post your wild ruminations in the Proposed Rules section.
At this point you are making up your own rules.
'Bike', 'tank', 'boltgun', 'swarm', 'character' are the advanced rules. Accept it. It is written.
Ceann wrote: Note that the line you are quoting talks about SPECIFIC MODELS, not Units.
Why are we taking a line that talks about models and conflating it to Units?
If you want me to explain what that term means... a boltgun = a combi melta, unusual skills = IWND, or a medicpack for FNP, unit leader = sargeant or an IC, not normal infantry models = swarm special rule, a tank and bike have relentless and/or splitfire. Infantry by default have NO special rules. Ex. Beasts have Fleet, a Vehicle relentless.
That phrase is just descriptive, I would say it implies special rules, options and wargear that are available to specific models in a unit. For example if you have a unit of infantry and an IC joins who has shroud, they would gain shroud, because of a specific model. But if the IC joined a unit that had shroud, he would gain it. The different being the ability being sourced from a unit or sourced from an individual model. In each circumstance if you nearly kill the entire unit, shroud is still there, but in the other if you just kill the IC, it goes away.
You've completely lost me. Where am I conflating references to specific models with references to units, and why is it relevant here?
As for what the quote refers to, the rules don't place such specific terminology in there, so why are you? You've got no rules basis to claim the quote refers only to situations of a model having for example a Combi-melta, or the It Will Not Die or Feel No Pain special rules, or being a Character, or having the Relentless special rule by virtue of being a bike (but not being a bike itself).
Indeed, having the Relentless special rule because of being a Bike would fit perfectly into your definition of "unusual skills". If it simply meant that, why repeat itself in a different and vastly more confusing way by referring to being a Bike? Because it actually means what it says, that being of a given Unit Type can apply advanced rules.
Also, you've not addressed the issue of Unit Types not being in the Core Rules section if they're basic rules.
Is movement a basic rule? Yes.
Is assaulting a basic rule? Yes.
Is shooting a basic rule? Yes.
is morale a basic rule? Yes.
Are all of these located somewhere in the unit type section? Yes.
1. The rules for movement, assault, shooting, and morale that are in the Core Rules section are basic rules.
2 .Any rule for a specific movement ability for a specific type of model that is not in the Core Rules section is an advanced rule.
3 .So any rule for specific movement abilities for the unit types in the Unit Types section are advanced rules.
1. Correct. Here is one of the rules from that section.
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the
case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains
in unit coherency.
This is a basic rule for movement.
2. Wrong, there are no specific model types in the Core Rules.
Ex. how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.
Seems pretty specific to me.
3. Wrong.
We are told that those rules exist in the core rules, they just do not physically reside on those pages.
Just like we are told psyker powers exist, and different weapon profiles exist, they also do not physically reside on those pages.
Ceann wrote: Note that the line you are quoting talks about SPECIFIC MODELS, not Units.
Why are we taking a line that talks about models and conflating it to Units?
If you want me to explain what that term means... a boltgun = a combi melta, unusual skills = IWND, or a medicpack for FNP, unit leader = sargeant or an IC, not normal infantry models = swarm special rule, a tank and bike have relentless and/or splitfire. Infantry by default have NO special rules. Ex. Beasts have Fleet, a Vehicle relentless.
That phrase is just descriptive, I would say it implies special rules, options and wargear that are available to specific models in a unit. For example if you have a unit of infantry and an IC joins who has shroud, they would gain shroud, because of a specific model. But if the IC joined a unit that had shroud, he would gain it. The different being the ability being sourced from a unit or sourced from an individual model. In each circumstance if you nearly kill the entire unit, shroud is still there, but in the other if you just kill the IC, it goes away.
You've completely lost me. Where am I conflating references to specific models with references to units, and why is it relevant here?
As for what the quote refers to, the rules don't place such specific terminology in there, so why are you? You've got no rules basis to claim the quote refers only to situations of a model having for example a Combi-melta, or the It Will Not Die or Feel No Pain special rules, or being a Character, or having the Relentless special rule by virtue of being a bike (but not being a bike itself).
Indeed, having the Relentless special rule because of being a Bike would fit perfectly into your definition of "unusual skills". If it simply meant that, why repeat itself in a different and vastly more confusing way by referring to being a Bike? Because it actually means what it says, that being of a given Unit Type applies advanced rules.
Your quote is kinda messed up.
I was not claiming I understand what that statement applied too, all I was saying that anyone "myself, you, col" could only HAZARAD A GUESS as to what all of that means, it is not specific enough. That statement is being used with a CLAIM that the Unit Types section is all advanced rules. I am disputing that claim.
The conflating I was referring too, was that rule line you quoted says specific models.
These below are both units. Tell me which unit has the specific model.
Unit 1
1 Tactical Marine Sargent model
4 Tactical Marine models
Unit 2
3 Elder Jetbike models
Can you see how disingenuous it is to apply that statement to unit types?
1. Correct. Here is one of the rules from that section.
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the
case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains
in unit coherency.
This is a basic rule for movement.
2. Wrong, there are no specific model types in the Core Rules.
Ex. how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.
Seems pretty specific to me.
3. Wrong.
We are told that those rules exist in the core rules, they just do not physically reside on those pages.
Just like we are told psyker powers exist, and different weapon profiles exist, they also do not physically reside on those pages.
'Mentioning' does not entail 'containing'.
The advanced rules for movement for the various unit types are contained in the Unit Types section. All basic rules are contained in the Core Rules section.
You are trying to magically relocate rules by just having a term mentioned in the Core Rules section. Mentioning does not change where the rules are contained.
Skyborne, an advanced rule for movement, is in the Unit Types section. It doesn't magically relocate to be contained in the Core Rules section because 'unit type' is mentioned or 'movement' is mentioned or 'certain other types' is mentioned.
Ceann wrote: I was not claiming I understand what that statement applied too, all I was saying that anyone "myself, you, col" could only HAZARAD A GUESS as to what all of that means, it is not specific enough. That statement is being used with a CLAIM that the Unit Types section is all advanced rules.
But it clearly tells us that not being a normal Infantry model applies as an advanced rule. It doesn't need to be more specific than that - if it is not a normal Infantry model, whatever makes it not a normal Infantry model applies as an advanced rule. There doesn't need to be any more to it than that.
The conflating I was referring too, was that rule line you quoted says specific models.
These below are both units. Tell me which unit has the specific model.
Unit 1
1 Tactical Marine Sargent model
4 Tactical Marine models
Unit 2
3 Elder Jetbike models
Can you see how disingenuous it is to apply that statement to unit types?
The reference to "specific types of models" is in contrast to the basic rules applying, subject to any advanced rules, to all models. You've simply misunderstood it completely.
That statement necessarily must apply to Unit Types, as they are something that differentiates specific types of models from being normal Infantry models.
The advanced rules for movement for the various unit types are contained in the Unit Types section.
This is a 100% fabricated statement by you.
The only location we are given for Advanced Rules.
Is the Army List Entry's.
That's not correct at all.
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
The Army List Entry only indicates what advanced rules a specific model has. Army List Entries might themselves contain the advanced rules but most often will not. The advanced rules can be located anywhere in the BRB or in any 40k publication.
This is what I mean by you quoting rules and then saying something that does not follow from those rules quotes. Stick to what the rules say!
The words "Unit Types" never appears in the basic vs advanced terminology.
Where are you directed to consider all unit types are advanced rules?
Spoiler:
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Ceann wrote: What information do I need to provide to you, in order for you consider my point of view?
That I am offering a counter-argument in direct reference to what you're saying evidences that I am considering your point of view. Could you please respond to my counter-point suggesting that all models simply having a unit type is the basic rule, while the specific unit types themselves apply advanced rules?
Indeed, it seem to me this is the only way we can resolve the following quote:
"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."
Because if being a Bike, Swarm or Tank model is a basic rule, it cannot apply as an advanced rule as we are told above. It also accords with the rules telling us all basic rules are found in the Core Rules section, because that too would not work if the actual rules for Unit Types were found outside of the Core Rules section (which of course they are not).
Note that the line you are quoting talks about SPECIFIC MODELS, not Units.
Why are we taking a line that talks about models and conflating it to Units?
1) Because units are made up of models.
2) Unit Type rules are applied to the models.
3) The majority of Unit Type rules address their affects on the models, not the unit.
4) And then there's:
In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model falls into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile, you’ll be able to find that information in the relevant codex or Army List Entry.
You are taking the name of the rule group "Unit Type" far too literally.
Ceann wrote: That phrase is just descriptive, I would say it implies special rules, options and wargear that are available to specific models in a unit. For example if you have a unit of infantry and an IC joins who has shroud, they would gain shroud, because of a specific model. But if the IC joined a unit that had shroud, he would gain it. The different being the ability being sourced from a unit or sourced from an individual model. In each circumstance if you nearly kill the entire unit, shroud is still there, but in the other if you just kill the IC, it goes away.
It does indeed imply Special Rules, sometimes explicit, sometimes subtly in a Wargear, sometimes as an optional purchase of a Special Rule or Wargear. Universal Special Rules are Advanced Rules as they sure as heck are not basic rules, by their very definition. Nor are the Universal Special Rules being Codex Rules.
Models are affected by things that affect their unit. That's how Blind, Stubborn, and Shrouded work. A unit that comes with Shrouded is full of models with the Shrouded Special Rule. Indeed, Shrouded requires at least one model have this Special Rule in order to work. If the unit and not the models had the Special Rule, then Shrouded does nothing for them. Shrouded also has to affect the models, because only models take Cover Saves, not units.
What would be a not normal infantry model?
It doesn't say a NON infantry model.
A not normal infantry model, would be a squad sergeant. Or an Independent Character.
The physical page 155 of the BRB states.
This section contains a collection of advanced rules, weaponry and abilities.
We have 3 sub sections in this section.
Special rules, weaponry, and psyker powers.
This means that all advanced rules are special rules.
Please note these two pieces of information.
BRB Page 156.
1. A Compendium of Special Rules
We’ve presented them all in a single section to make your life easier when trying to track down the effect of a particular special rule.
2. Data sheet point reference 9. Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here. Special rules that are unique to models in that unit are described in full here, whilst others are detailed either in the Appendix of this book or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.
Now consider this Basic vs advanced tells us...
1. Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex. Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
We have in the Basic vs Advanced section, specific wording telling us to look at the Army List Entires to find advanced rules. The index for advanced rules in the BRB tells us to look at page 13 which is advanced vs basic.
Nowhere in the basic vs advanced section are we told to apply rules ourselves to the Unit Types section. This is assumed.
The special rules section, which is called advanced rules on the Appendix splash page, has a statement that confirms all special rules in the BRB are contained there and the Army List Entry confirms that per the above I quoted. We have clear information all advanced and special rules within the BRB are located in the Appendix.
It is therefore impossible for any advanced rules to be in Unit Types section.
Ceann wrote: What information do I need to provide to you, in order for you consider my point of view?
That I am offering a counter-argument in direct reference to what you're saying evidences that I am considering your point of view. Could you please respond to my counter-point suggesting that all models simply having a unit type is the basic rule, while the specific unit types themselves apply advanced rules?
Indeed, it seem to me this is the only way we can resolve the following quote:
"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."
Because if being a Bike, Swarm or Tank model is a basic rule, it cannot apply as an advanced rule as we are told above. It also accords with the rules telling us all basic rules are found in the Core Rules section, because that too would not work if the actual rules for Unit Types were found outside of the Core Rules section (which of course they are not).
Note that the line you are quoting talks about SPECIFIC MODELS, not Units.
Why are we taking a line that talks about models and conflating it to Units?
1) Because units are made up of models.
2) Unit Type rules are applied to the models.
3) The majority of Unit Type rules address their affects on the models, not the unit.
4) And then there's:
In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model falls into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile, you’ll be able to find that information in the relevant codex or Army List Entry.
You are taking the name of the rule group "Unit Type" far too literally.
Ceann wrote: That phrase is just descriptive, I would say it implies special rules, options and wargear that are available to specific models in a unit. For example if you have a unit of infantry and an IC joins who has shroud, they would gain shroud, because of a specific model. But if the IC joined a unit that had shroud, he would gain it. The different being the ability being sourced from a unit or sourced from an individual model. In each circumstance if you nearly kill the entire unit, shroud is still there, but in the other if you just kill the IC, it goes away.
It does indeed imply Special Rules, sometimes explicit, sometimes subtly in a Wargear, sometimes as an optional purchase of a Special Rule or Wargear. Universal Special Rules are Advanced Rules as they sure as heck are not basic rules, by their very definition. Nor are the Universal Special Rules being Codex Rules.
Models are affected by things that affect their unit. That's how Blind, Stubborn, and Shrouded work. A unit that comes with Shrouded is full of models with the Shrouded Special Rule. Indeed, Shrouded requires at least one model have this Special Rule in order to work. If the unit and not the models had the Special Rule, then Shrouded does nothing for them. Shrouded also has to affect the models, because only models take Cover Saves, not units.
What do you mean I am taking Unit Type too literally?
The line you commented on that was DIRECTLY FROM THE BRB. I didnt make that statement I quoted it.
So if you think the BRB is taking Unit Type very literally then, I agree with it.
Ceann wrote: The advanced rules for movement for the various unit types are contained in the Unit Types section.
This is a 100% fabricated statement by you.
The only location we are given for Advanced Rules.
Is the Army List Entry's.
That is it.
You are in error. They are indicated on the Army List Entry, not defined. Unit Types are indicated on the Army List Entry, are they not?
Edit: I should also point out that this statement of indication does not mean that is the only place one will find these things. You are far to concerned by restricting things by location without any authority to do so.
Ceann wrote: The words "Unit Types" never appears in the basic vs advanced terminology.
Where are you directed to consider all unit types are advanced rules?
Well, aside from Infantry, they are not listed as Basic Rules.
Aside from Infantry, Unit Types different from Infantry are specifically listed as being Advanced Rules in the paragraph which defines Advanced Rules.
So, the better question is, with so many statements which tells us that Infantry follow Basic Rules and anything that differentiates something from Infantry in the rulebook is Advanced Rules, why should I NOT consider Unit Types as Advanced Rules?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote: What do you mean I am taking Unit Type too literally?
The line you commented on that was DIRECTLY FROM THE BRB. I didnt make that statement I quoted it.
So if you think the BRB is taking Unit Type very literally then, I agree with it.
That "Unit Type" only applies to "units", and not "models". At least, that is how you have been presenting this argument.
What would be a not normal infantry model?
It doesn't say a NON infantry model.
A not normal infantry model, would be a squad sergeant. Or an Independent Character.
But it doesn't say, "because it is a not normal Infantry model". It says, "because it is not a normal Infantry model".
The former would apply only to Infantry models, which are not of the normal type. The latter would apply to anything that is not a normal Infantry model, which includes non-Infantry type models.
So, the better question is, with so many statements which tells us that Infantry follow Basic Rules and anything that differentiates something from Infantry in the rulebook is Advanced Rules, why should I NOT consider Unit Types as Advanced Rules?
1. Other Important Information
In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section.
Unit Types are specifically mentioned in core rules, if a unit type was not a basic rule it cannot be mentioned here as the Core Rules section contains ALL basic rules.
2. Vehicle Characteristics
In the Warhammer 40,000 universe, there are many tanks, war machines and other combat vehicles. Vehicle characteristics are described in the vehicles section.
Still in the core rules.
3. Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules
for morale.
If the Unit Type's contain anything pertaining to movement, shooting, close combat etc basic rules. Then they must be basic rules.
4. THE MOVEMENT PHASE
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
Not 6", their maximum value, basic rule.
5. MOVEMENT DISTANCE
Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase. This represents most creatures...
Keyword MOST CREATURES. This is never stated to be a required standard movement speed.
6.Different Movement Distances Within a Unit
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains
in unit coherency (see below).
Again, maximum movement, not 6".
6" is never declared the basic movement standard.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is the part all of you guys are getting stuck on...
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
What do a special kind of weapon, an unusual skill, because they are different from their fellows or because they are not normal infantry models..... ALL have in common.
Well we have a weapon and a skill, so it can't be Unit Types.
The rest of the descriptors would imply a model or models, but a weapon and a skill don't apply there making an application of the ENTIRE statement to be inaccurate.
But wait...
What if we applied that statement to special rules.
You know the section labled as advanced rules in the Appendix?
Does a special kind of weapon have a special rule?
Melta, Get's Hot
Do we have unusual skills that are special skills that regenerate? IWND, FNP
Because they are different from their fellows? IC
Or because they are not normal infantry models? Swarm, special rule, bike, tank, relentless, special rules.
Do normal infantry models have any special rules?
No.
Zero.
Not a single one.
Plain jane vanilla as possible unit.
If you think applying "advanced rules" which state they can be found in Army List Entry's which have a specific field for Special Rules, noted in the Appendix as Advanced Rules, makes more sense to unit types than to special rules then I am not sure how much more clear I can make it.
If anything my explanation accounts for the entire paragraph a lot better than cherry picking a sentence out of it and turning it red.
Esp when we have a rule stating that movement, assault, shooting and morale are basic rules unless stated otherwise. No one stated otherwise.
Ceann wrote: So, the better question is, with so many statements which tells us that Infantry follow Basic Rules and anything that differentiates something from Infantry in the rulebook is Advanced Rules, why should I NOT consider Unit Types as Advanced Rules?
1. Other Important Information
In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section.
Unit Types are specifically mentioned in core rules, if a unit type was not a basic rule it cannot be mentioned here as the Core Rules section contains ALL basic rules.
2. Vehicle Characteristics
In the Warhammer 40,000 universe, there are many tanks, war machines and other combat vehicles. Vehicle characteristics are described in the vehicles section.
Still in the core rules.
3. Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules
for morale.
If the Unit Type's contain anything pertaining to movement, shooting, close combat etc basic rules. Then they must be basic rules.
4. THE MOVEMENT PHASE
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
Not 6", their maximum value, basic rule.
5. MOVEMENT DISTANCE
Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase. This represents most creatures...
Keyword MOST CREATURES. This is never stated to be a required standard movement speed.
6.Different Movement Distances Within a Unit
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains
in unit coherency (see below).
Again, maximum movement, not 6".
6" is never declared the basic movement standard.
'Mentioning' does not entail 'containing'.
The advanced rules for movement for the various unit types are contained in the Unit Types section. All basic rules are contained in the Core Rules section.
Spoiler:
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
You are trying to magically relocate rules by just having a term mentioned in the Core Rules section. Mentioning does not change where the rules are contained.
Skyborne, an advanced rule for movement, is in the Unit Types section. It doesn't magically relocate to be contained in the Core Rules section because 'unit type' is mentioned or 'movement' is mentioned or 'certain other types' is mentioned.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ceann,
Since you keep abusing the rules, let me remind the thread what a properly supported argument looks like.
This is the how we determine which rule is which
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Spoiler:
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
Captyn_Bob wrote: It's going to be sad when in a couple of months 8th drops and all this wonderful debate becomes completely pointless and meaningless.
Tell me any new rules that are CONTAINED in the Unit Types section.
Lets take a look at a beast for example.
BEASTS
Beasts are savage and swift-moving creatures.
1
MOVEMENT
Beasts can move up to 12" in the Movement phase. Beasts are not slowed by difficult
terrain (even when charging) and automatically pass Dangerous Terrain tests.
2
FALL BACK MOVES
Beasts make Fall Back moves just like Infantry, except that they move 3D6".
3
SPECIAL RULES
Beasts have the Fleet special rule.
1. This is a movement rule
2. This is a movement rule.
3. This is an advanced rule.
The Core Rules section still contains all basic rules.
The Unit Types section has values for basic rules.
It is a reference section for values.
Just like weaponry is a reference for "Choose a Weapon"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
U02dah4 wrote: Cienne why ask a rules question when you don't want to listen to anyone else anewer.
Says the guy that thinks unusual grenades is a special rule?
I quoted you pages that told you the exact location of special rules in the BRB.
Unusual grenades is not one of them.
Your "argument" was verbal confetti with no pages sourced and nothing that contradicted the information I gave you.
Tell me any new rules that are CONTAINED in the Unit Types section.
Lets take a look at a beast for example.
BEASTS
Beasts are savage and swift-moving creatures.
1
MOVEMENT
Beasts can move up to 12" in the Movement phase. Beasts are not slowed by difficult
terrain (even when charging) and automatically pass Dangerous Terrain tests.
2
FALL BACK MOVES
Beasts make Fall Back moves just like Infantry, except that they move 3D6".
3
SPECIAL RULES
Beasts have the Fleet special rule.
1. This is a movement rule
2. This is a movement rule.
3. This is an advanced rule.
The Core Rules section still contains all basic rules.
The Unit Types section has values for basic rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
U02dah4 wrote: Cienne why ask a rules question when you don't want to listen to anyone else anewer.
Says the guy that thinks unusual grenades is a special rule?
I quoted you pages that told you the exact location of special rules in the BRB.
Unusual grenades is not one of them.
Your "argument" was verbal confetti with no pages sourced and nothing that contradicted the information I gave you.
Ceann
1. Is an advanced rule. basic rule states you can move 6" only
2. Is an advanced rule. Basic rules states you fall back 2D6" only
3. Is a special rule (which are advanced rules). It is referencing fleet
I understand the thought process of why you are saying that. But I feel it is incorrect.
Per basic vs advanced.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
1. Is this a move? Yes.
a. Can you tell me where it says you can move 6" only?
b. First page of movement rules - In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance state.
2. Is this a move? Yes.
a. How is this not using movement rules located in the core rules section? The values are different, you are still using the same rules to dictate how you move.
Captyn_Bob wrote: It's going to be sad when in a couple of months 8th drops and all this wonderful debate becomes completely pointless and meaningless.
Why? I'm enjoying myself just find right now. Besides, I don't think this was ever a debate if you know what I mean .
Look Ceanne.
It's been easily ten different posters pointing out how your logic, on many points, is deeply flawed.
Including how you structure your own posts. You ask that people consider your perspective while repeatedly insulting their intelligence.
Has it ever occurred to you, even for just a second, that, perhaps, it might not be our understanding of the rules that is error?
If everybody else is wrong and you're the only one that understands, that's usually a good sign to re-evaluate your own beliefs.
It's not a debate when ten people make a reasoned argument and one person calls the others stupid for not understanding it's effectively ten people arguin with a brick wall.
Cienne I gave you quotes and sections in the last thread I won't waste time in this one because either you are trolling so wont care or by now after 10+ people 2 threads and 20+pages are genuinely lacking the capacity to understand the rules in which case it is a waste of my time
also since I have always used section and quote a page number won't make it any more or less sound I have ten plus agreeing with me and you have none
If my argument was confetti and yours was solid it would be the other way round
Captyn_Bob wrote: It's going to be sad when in a couple of months 8th drops and all this wonderful debate becomes completely pointless and meaningless.
Why? I'm enjoying myself just find right now. Besides, I don't think this was ever a debate if you know what I mean .
Look Ceanne.
It's been easily ten different posters pointing out how your logic, on many points, is deeply flawed.
Including how you structure your own posts. You ask that people consider your perspective while repeatedly insulting their intelligence.
Has it ever occurred to you, even for just a second, that, perhaps, it might not be our understanding of the rules that is error?
If everybody else is wrong and you're the only one that understands, that's usually a good sign to re-evaluate your own beliefs.
If we talked to a large group of people and gave them a complicated problem.
It would logically work out that a much smaller number of people would solve the problem, than those who thought they solved it or guessed.
Lets compare 1000 doctors vs 10,000,000 people? I would take the medical opinion of the 1000 doctors, they clearly have more credible knowledge.
The issue here is that the arguments being presented, are not credible, they all either make leaps that do not exist, or assert things that are not asserted.
You guys keep getting stuck on language in Basic vs Advanced.
Many of you use this "models move 6" as your reasoning.
Explain to me Roknar please.
1. In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
a. maximum movement distance.
2. Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase. This represents most creatures....
a. keyword MOST creatures, 6" is not called the standard, or base movement, or anything.
3. Different Movement Distances Within a Unit
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains in unit coherency (see below).
a. again, maximum movement.
So WHY is 2. correct. Which states "MOST" not all.
But 1 and 3 from the SAME PAGE, are not basic rules?
If we talked to a large group of people and gave them a complicated problem.
It would logically work out that a much smaller number of people would solve the problem, than those who thought they solved it or guessed.
Lets compare 1000 doctors vs 10,000,000 people? I would take the medical opinion of the 1000 doctors, they clearly have more credible knowledge.
Okay cool, but where is your credibility then, since you think you've solved this but I've seen you blatantly wrong on other threads, while posters with much more credibility due to being in many more rules debates here and arguing their points in much more coherent and understandable ways are disagreeing with you on the vast majority of points.
If you want to play the credibility game, you've already lost.
Ceann wrote: The rules are also not telling us that unit types is where advanced rules are located, nor are specific models located in unit types.
Why are you leaping to that conclusion?
By your very same logic, there can be basic rules in the Unit Types section, if there can be Advanced rules in the Core rules section.
The core rules section has been given a quantity of "all" for the basic rules.
So any rule involved with the basic rules is therefore also a basic rule.
Hoo boy, I guess the last thread wasn't enough.
Sorry if this is already covered, but I wanted to put this in before reading past this post of yours.
He is certainly not leaping to that conclusion.
As you stated the Core Rules section tells us that it contains "all" the basic rules. The consequence of this is that any section that is any additional rules in sections that are not the core rules section are by definition advanced rules because they are not part of "all" the rules in the basic section. So, all that's left is to look at where the Core Rules section ends. It ends just before the Unit Types section starts. This means any new rules starting in the Unit Types section are advanced rules.
We are told basic rules apply to all models. We know that all models have a unit type, but that does not make the unit type rules basic rules. Not all models are all unit types - Jetbikes are not artillery, are not beasts, so we know that each unit type being discussed is not applied to all models, so isn't a basic rule.
We know that, for example, we are told that bikes and jetbikes move up to 12". Now, we know that overrides the basic rule of moving up to 6" in the movement phase. Therefore, these rules have to be advanced rules. And, since the Core Rules section has ended, any rules after this section are also advanced rules.
This does mean your statement about advanced rules being only in codexes is wrong, as is the statement that all rules that are not special rules in the main rulebook are core rules. You ignore their own defiintion of what core rules are by trying to classify all non-special rules in the rulebook as basic rules.
Ceann wrote: The rules are also not telling us that unit types is where advanced rules are located, nor are specific models located in unit types.
Why are you leaping to that conclusion?
By your very same logic, there can be basic rules in the Unit Types section, if there can be Advanced rules in the Core rules section.
The core rules section has been given a quantity of "all" for the basic rules.
So any rule involved with the basic rules is therefore also a basic rule.
Hoo boy, I guess the last thread wasn't enough.
Sorry if this is already covered, but I wanted to put this in before reading past this post of yours.
He is certainly not leaping to that conclusion.
As you stated the Core Rules section tells us that it contains "all" the basic rules. The consequence of this is that any section that is any additional rules in sections that are not the core rules section are by definition advanced rules because they are not part of "all" the rules in the basic section. So, all that's left is to look at where the Core Rules section ends. It ends just before the Unit Types section starts. This means any new rules starting in the Unit Types section are advanced rules.
We are told basic rules apply to all models. We know that all models have a unit type, but that does not make the unit type rules basic rules. Not all models are all unit types - Jetbikes are not artillery, are not beasts, so we know that each unit type being discussed is not applied to all models, so isn't a basic rule.
We know that, for example, we are told that bikes and jetbikes move up to 12". Now, we know that overrides the basic rule of moving up to 6" in the movement phase. Therefore, these rules have to be advanced rules. And, since the Core Rules section has ended, any rules after this section are also advanced rules.
This does mean your statement about advanced rules being only in codexes is wrong, as is the statement that all rules that are not special rules in the main rulebook are core rules. You ignore their own defiintion of what core rules are by trying to classify all non-special rules in the rulebook as basic rules.
Here is the issue.
You are NOT told that moving 6" is the STANDARD.
The basic rules tell you HOW to move, not what the standard for movement is.
The core rules tell what MOVEMENT is, what MOVEMENT means, how to use movement in the game.
The core rules tell you SHOOTING is, what SHOOTING means, how to use shooting in the game.
Lets try shooting for example.
What is the basic standard for shooting?
What is the range?
What is the profile?
Is a Storm Bolter a basic rule or an advanced rule?
1. In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
a. maximum movement distance.
2. Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase. This represents most creatures....
a. keyword MOST creatures, 6" is not called the standard, or base movement, or anything.
3. Different Movement Distances Within a Unit
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains in unit coherency (see below).
a. again, maximum movement.
So WHY is 2. correct. Which states "MOST" not all.
But 1 and 3 from the SAME PAGE, are not basic rules?
I already have explained and I don't know how to make it any clearer.
All models move up to their maximum movement speed, that is irrespective of whatever the default is and doesn't conflict.
All models move up to 6". They even go on to say, still within "Movement Distance", that a model cannot end its move 6" away from where it started.
If other types moving more would be a basic rule then there would be a conflict here as their maximum move is 12 for example but they only get to move 6.
Your third point doesn't actually say anything. The core rules also use the word "special rules". According to that logic the entire BRB consists of only basic rules.
Other than that, the third point still does not conflict with the first two points of moving up to the maximum distance and basic movement being 6 inch.
The core rules have to account for advanced rules and know that there will be models with different speeds among other things.
In fact the basic vs advanced rule is itself a basic rule, which by your standards would make all advanced rules basic rules since they are mentioned in the core rules.
Which is obviously bolony.
Here is the issue according to Cienne - everyone else because they lack credibility.
However for everyone else it's Cienne who doesn't listen and who's argument's lack varacity
There are no doctors of 40k the closest would probably be regular etc/itc players and their TO''s but even then their is no formal academic training you just have to read everything in context
May I make a suggestion cienne it seems that 40k may not be right for you. You seem to have difficulty understanding the rules as everyone else does and this makes you very angry but never fear gw have war games designed with simplicity in mind where you wont have to worry about what is or isn't a special rule it's called age of sigmar and it's written expressly for those who find complex rules and tactical depth challengeing
Captyn_Bob wrote:It's going to be sad when in a couple of months 8th drops and all this wonderful debate becomes completely pointless and meaningless.
Or made completely worse. This is GW we are talking about, after all..
Ceann wrote:You are NOT told that moving 6" is the STANDARD.
Yes, we are. It is in Movement Distance in the Movement Phase section of the Core Rules. No allowance in this specific portion of the rules allows for different distances to be moved. It does not tell us to refer to the Unit Type rules for the distance.
Ceann wrote:The basic rules tell you HOW to move, not what the standard for movement is.
Incorrect. It is in Movement Distance in the Movement Phase section of the Core Rules. No allowance in this specific portion of the rules allows for different distances to be moved. It does not tell us to refer to the Unit Type rules for the distance.
Ceann wrote:The core rules tell what MOVEMENT is, what MOVEMENT means, how to use movement in the game.
Including Movement Distance.
Ceann wrote:The core rules tell you SHOOTING is, what SHOOTING means, how to use shooting in the game.
Correct. It also tells us to use the different Types involved with the Shooting. Types include Special Rules.
Ceann wrote:What is the basic standard for shooting?
* Models must be able to see the target.
* Models must be in range of any of the Weapons they carry.
* Take Type in to account when noting different affects.
* Use the BS Characteristic of the model to determine Chances To Hit.
* Use the Strength Characteristic of the Weapon to determine Chances To Wound.
* Use the majority Toughness of the unit when comparing to the Strength of the Weapon.
* Individual models have Wounds Allocated to them, with the model nearest to the Shooting unit.
* Individual models may roll to Save against the Wound Allocated to them.
* They may only use one Save against the Wound.
* Player determines the best Save, except when choosing between Cover Saves.
* Remove models who have not Saved against more Wounds than they have.
Ceann wrote:What is the range?
Nothing defined here, we are told to refer to the range on the Weapon's Profile. This is distinctly different from Movement Distance which does not tell us to refer to the Unit Type to determine the model's Movement Distance. It is set at 6", no variances noted.
Ceann wrote:What is the profile?
The listing of Characteristics of the Weapon.
No Movement Characteristic is noted for models. The is entirely contained within the Basic Rules, Unite Types, or Special Rules the model may have obtained.
Ceann wrote:Is a Storm Bolter a basic rule or an advanced rule?
It is Wargear. Much like a model, Wargear may be carrying Advanced Rules within it. In this case, unless we consider the Assault Type as Advanced Rules, it does not. Indeed, the Assault Type of Shooting Weapon is probably the most Basic of Weapon Types as it does nothing to change anything about how Shooting happens nor affects how Assault occurs.
1. In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
a. maximum movement distance.
2. Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase. This represents most creatures....
a. keyword MOST creatures, 6" is not called the standard, or base movement, or anything.
3. Different Movement Distances Within a Unit
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains in unit coherency (see below).
a. again, maximum movement.
So WHY is 2. correct. Which states "MOST" not all.
But 1 and 3 from the SAME PAGE, are not basic rules?
I already have explained and I don't know how to make it any clearer.
All models move up to their maximum movement speed, that is irrespective of whatever the default is and doesn't conflict.
All models move up to 6". They even go on to say, still within "Movement Distance", that a model cannot end its move 6" away from where it started.
If other types moving more would be a basic rule then there would be a conflict here as their maximum move is 12 for example but they only get to move 6.
Your third point doesn't actually say anything. The core rules also use the word "special rules". According to that logic the entire BRB consists of only basic rules.
Other than that, the third point still does not conflict with the first two points of moving up to the maximum distance and basic movement being 6 inch.
The core rules have to account for advanced rules and know that there will be models with different speeds among other things.
In fact the basic vs advanced rule is itself a basic rule, which by your standards would make all advanced rules basic rules since they are mentioned in the core rules.
Which is obviously bolony.
Your process is flawed. Lets do this.
I want to know about advanced rules, I have no idea what an advanced rule is.
I look at the index of the BRB, it states page 13 is advanced rules.
The only specific location I am given that tells me where advanced rules are located is "Army List Entry or other GW publications".
Does it tell me, go to the unit types section?
No.
Ceann wrote: The rules are also not telling us that unit types is where advanced rules are located, nor are specific models located in unit types.
Why are you leaping to that conclusion?
By your very same logic, there can be basic rules in the Unit Types section, if there can be Advanced rules in the Core rules section.
The core rules section has been given a quantity of "all" for the basic rules.
So any rule involved with the basic rules is therefore also a basic rule.
Hoo boy, I guess the last thread wasn't enough.
Sorry if this is already covered, but I wanted to put this in before reading past this post of yours.
He is certainly not leaping to that conclusion.
As you stated the Core Rules section tells us that it contains "all" the basic rules. The consequence of this is that any section that is any additional rules in sections that are not the core rules section are by definition advanced rules because they are not part of "all" the rules in the basic section. So, all that's left is to look at where the Core Rules section ends. It ends just before the Unit Types section starts. This means any new rules starting in the Unit Types section are advanced rules.
We are told basic rules apply to all models. We know that all models have a unit type, but that does not make the unit type rules basic rules. Not all models are all unit types - Jetbikes are not artillery, are not beasts, so we know that each unit type being discussed is not applied to all models, so isn't a basic rule.
We know that, for example, we are told that bikes and jetbikes move up to 12". Now, we know that overrides the basic rule of moving up to 6" in the movement phase. Therefore, these rules have to be advanced rules. And, since the Core Rules section has ended, any rules after this section are also advanced rules.
This does mean your statement about advanced rules being only in codexes is wrong, as is the statement that all rules that are not special rules in the main rulebook are core rules. You ignore their own defiintion of what core rules are by trying to classify all non-special rules in the rulebook as basic rules.
Here is the issue.
You are NOT told that moving 6" is the STANDARD.
"Models more up to 6" in the Movement phase." (page 18) That pretty much looks like we ARE being told 6" is the standard. Yes, they have a rule later on how to handle models with different movement rates, but they did not DEFINE any other movement rates. This means that anything that has a different movement rate would have to replace the rule that they state on page 18 that models move up to 6". We are never told that a basic rule overrides another basic rule, only that an advance rule will override a basic rule. This means any movement rules in the Unit Types section that do not move 6" are advanced rules. Which should really be obvious to you, since we are no longer in the Core Rules section, and therefore are not in the section that has all the basic rules we need. Any new rules in this section are advanced rules, and able to override rules in the Core Rules section if necessary.
Ceann wrote: The basic rules tell you HOW to move, not what the standard for movement is.
Disproved above.
Ceann wrote: The core rules tell what MOVEMENT is, what MOVEMENT means, how to use movement in the game.
This does not mean that all rules dealing with movement are basic rules. Fleet, for example, lets you reroll a movement distance. It is a special rule and therefore an advanced rule. Basic rules apply to all models; unit type rules apply to that specific unit type and therefore are not applied to all models. Movement rules for unit types are not applied to all models, only to models with that unit type, therefore they are not basic rules. You make the mistake of assuming that because the basic rules deal with movement, shooting, close combat and morale, that all rules dealing with movement, shooting, close combat and morale are basic rules. This isn't true. All Crimson Fists are Space Marines, but not all Space Marines are Crimson Fists. All Basic rules dealing with movement rules are movement rules, but not all movement rules are basic rules dealing with movement.
Ceann wrote: Is a Storm Bolter a basic rule or an advanced rule?
Given that a boltgun is given as an example of s special kind of weapon cited in the advanced rules paragraph on page 13, the rules for a Storm Bolter would be advance rules. Or are you trying to say that page 13 was lying to us when using boltgun as an example of an advanced rule? Note that storm bolters are contained in the appendix, not in the core rules section - supplementary evidence they are not basic rules.
Charistoph wrote: Incorrect. It is in Movement Distance in the Movement Phase section of the Core Rules. No allowance in this specific portion of the rules allows for different distances to be moved. It does not tell us to refer to the Unit Type rules for the distance.
PAGE 18 BRB.
Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book (pg61-71).
I want to know about advanced rules, I have no idea what an advanced rule is.
I look at the index of the BRB, it states page 13 is advanced rules.
The only specific location I am given that tells me where advanced rules are located is "Army List Entry or other GW publications".
Does it tell me, go to the unit types section?
No.
No, it does not state that the Advanced Rules are located on the Army List Entry, just that they are indicated on the Army List Entry. Do you know the difference between "indicate" and "locate"?
It provides the definition for Advanced Rules in the very place you looked it up. It also provides examples which can be found throughout the rulebook, such as what it means to be a "bike" or "tank".
Furthermore, in the following paragraph, it states that rules found in a codex will take precedence over Advanced Rules found in the rulebook.
I want to know about advanced rules, I have no idea what an advanced rule is.
I look at the index of the BRB, it states page 13 is advanced rules.
The only specific location I am given that tells me where advanced rules are located is "Army List Entry or other GW publications".
Does it tell me, go to the unit types section?
No.
You misrepresent. First, the location you reference tells us Unit Entries are advanced rules, but they say "advanced rules that apply to units". The next paragraph starts with "where advanced rules apply to a specific model", so that means there can be advanced rules for specific models, which would not be covered by the "advanced rules that apply to units" statement you cite, so therefore there have to be advanced rules in other locations. Second, I need to bring up again that we are told that the core rules section contains "all" the basic rules we need. Therefore, any rules we find outside the core rules section are by definition not basic rules since they're rules not listed in the section with "all" the basic rules we need, which makes them by definition advanced rules. It does require you to be able to have the knowledge to be able to read the book and know when you hit a different section, and to see if the rule is also listed in the core rules section. Infantry rules state that they are all covered by the basic rules. Other unit rules which introduce new rules - special rules or otherwise, are advanced rules.
Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book (pg61-71).
2.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Charistoph wrote: Incorrect. It is in Movement Distance in the Movement Phase section of the Core Rules. No allowance in this specific portion of the rules allows for different distances to be moved. It does not tell us to refer to the Unit Type rules for the distance.
PAGE 18 BRB.
Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book (pg61-71).
First paragraph of The Movement Phase.
And their movement rules are still advanced rules as they do not apply to all models, and they override that page 18 statement that models move at 6". If they were a basic rule, they do not have permission to override the statement that models move at 6".
Charistoph wrote: Incorrect. It is in Movement Distance in the Movement Phase section of the Core Rules. No allowance in this specific portion of the rules allows for different distances to be moved. It does not tell us to refer to the Unit Type rules for the distance.
PAGE 18 BRB.
Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book (pg61-71).
First paragraph of The Movement Phase.
Different "ways", not different "distances". Note the difference.
A way of movement is ignoring Terrain, or treating Difficult Terrain as Dangerous Terrain. Review Thrust in this regard.
A Distance of Movement is how far it goes. 6" is the standard, anything else is not a standard. You mentioned in the other thread that the Movement of a Flyer is outside the standard as it required a minimum movement. Yet, this follows the same standards for allowing a unit to move 12". You are applying a double standard in stating that Zooming movement is Advanced, but Beast Movement is Basic.
I want to know about advanced rules, I have no idea what an advanced rule is.
I look at the index of the BRB, it states page 13 is advanced rules.
The only specific location I am given that tells me where advanced rules are located is "Army List Entry or other GW publications".
Does it tell me, go to the unit types section?
No.
You misrepresent. First, the location you reference tells us Unit Entries are advanced rules, but they say "advanced rules that apply to units". The next paragraph starts with "where advanced rules apply to a specific model", so that means there can be advanced rules for specific models, which would not be covered by the "advanced rules that apply to units" statement you cite, so therefore there have to be advanced rules in other locations. Second, I need to bring up again that we are told that the core rules section contains "all" the basic rules we need. Therefore, any rules we find outside the core rules section are by definition not basic rules since they're rules not listed in the section with "all" the basic rules we need, which makes them by definition advanced rules. It does require you to be able to have the knowledge to be able to read the book and know when you hit a different section, and to see if the rule is also listed in the core rules section. Infantry rules state that they are all covered by the basic rules. Other unit rules which introduce new rules - special rules or otherwise, are advanced rules.
This is 100% disingenuous.
It says... SO FAR, they have discussed all the basic rule as they PERTAIN TO INFANTRY.
What does "So far" mean? (of a trend that seems likely to continue) up to this time.
TO CONTINUE.
What does "pertain to" mean? related, or applicable
People are cherry picking specific terms and words and ignoring the others.
Charistoph wrote: Incorrect. It is in Movement Distance in the Movement Phase section of the Core Rules. No allowance in this specific portion of the rules allows for different distances to be moved. It does not tell us to refer to the Unit Type rules for the distance.
PAGE 18 BRB.
Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book (pg61-71).
First paragraph of The Movement Phase.
Different "ways", not different "distances". Note the difference.
A way of movement is ignoring Terrain, or treating Difficult Terrain as Dangerous Terrain. Review Thrust in this regard.
A Distance of Movement is how far it goes. 6" is the standard, anything else is not a standard. You mentioned in the other thread that the Movement of a Flyer is outside the standard as it required a minimum movement. Yet, this follows the same standards for allowing a unit to move 12". You are applying a double standard in stating that Zooming movement is Advanced, but Beast Movement is Basic.
Everything you just said is irrelevant Charistoph.
Regardless of the words you want to gather from deconstruction what the rule says.
IT has the SPECIFIC page numbers.
Before your "models can move 6" is even mentioned, as a whisper.
We are told that those pages apply to the basic rules of movement.
Ceann, for more evidence that you are dealing with advanced rules in the Unit Types section, let's consider the Bikes and Jetbikes section. Ir leads off with Armoured Steed rules, which are separate from the Special Rules section for Bikes and Jetbikes. We are told that they get a +1 toughness (included in profile for a unit that already gets them as wargear), that they cannot go to ground and that they cannot be pinned.
The toughness increase modifies (overrides) the basic stat. Not being able to go to ground and not being able to be pinned override the basic rules for going to ground (pinning refers you back to the basic rules for going to ground). Since you are overriding the Go to Ground rule with this rule, it has to be an advanced rule.
Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book (pg61-71).
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
Ceann wrote: Everything you just said is irrelevant Charistoph.
Regardless of the words you want to gather from deconstruction what the rule says.
IT has the SPECIFIC page numbers.
Before your "models can move 6" is even mentioned, as a whisper.
We are told that those pages apply to the basic rules of movement.
Movement Distance is not a whisper. It is direct, clear statement as part of the normal flow of the rules. It is not separated out in a break-out box. It is not noted in parentheses or by commas. It is a very specific statement. You talk about cherry-picking, here is a good example of doing so.
Again, Movement Distance itself, which is concerned with Distance, does not direct us to review the Unit Types. How a unit moves does not translate to distance.
doctortom wrote: Ceann, for more evidence that you are dealing with advanced rules in the Unit Types section, let's consider the Bikes and Jetbikes section. Ir leads off with Armoured Steed rules, which are separate from the Special Rules section for Bikes and Jetbikes. We are told that they get a +1 toughness (included in profile for a unit that already gets them as wargear), that they cannot go to ground and that they cannot be pinned.
The toughness increase modifies (overrides) the basic stat. Not being able to go to ground and not being able to be pinned override the basic rules for going to ground (pinning refers you back to the basic rules for going to ground). Since you are overriding the Go to Ground rule with this rule, it has to be an advanced rule.
Incorrect.
Bike Units have the Relentless Special Rule as notated in the Unit Type profile.
A bike is a piece of wargear, which you will find located in the Army List Entry for Units.
The codex rules for a bike will tell you that you need to increase the toughness in circumstances where applicable.
Page 8 gives wargear permission to modify values, as a basic rule.
It says... SO FAR, they have discussed all the basic rule as they PERTAIN TO INFANTRY.
What does "So far" mean? (of a trend that seems likely to continue) up to this time.
TO CONTINUE.
What does "pertain to" mean? related, or applicable
People are cherry picking specific terms and words and ignoring the others.
None of this is disingenous. Let's go back to basics. The main rulbeook tells us the Core Rules give us all the basic rules we need. Do you agree with this? If so, where do you claim the core rules section ends? While accusing people of cherry picking some things and ignoring others, you seem to be cherry picking certain statements, such as you do here, while ignoring other basic statements (such as the core rules section containing "all" the basic rules we need. If you can't properly define where the section ends - and you haven't yet, there's no possibility of trying to come to an agreement on anything.
Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book (pg61-71).
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
Still no reference to find that distance in this location. Nor does it counter what is stated in Movement Distance.
Ceann wrote: Everything you just said is irrelevant Charistoph.
Regardless of the words you want to gather from deconstruction what the rule says.
IT has the SPECIFIC page numbers.
Before your "models can move 6" is even mentioned, as a whisper.
We are told that those pages apply to the basic rules of movement.
Movement Distance is not a whisper. It is direct, clear statement as part of the normal flow of the rules. It is not separated out in a break-out box. It is not noted in parentheses or by commas. It is a very specific statement. You talk about cherry-picking, here is a good example of doing so.
Again, Movement Distance itself, which is concerned with Distance, does not direct us to review the Unit Types. How a unit moves does not translate to distance.
Stop cherry picking, read the ENTIRE SECTION for the movement phase.
You asked for something that referenced the unit types pages specifically. I PROVIDED THAT with page numbers in the dead tree version of BRB.
Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.
Now you claim it doesn't mention movement, because apparently me pointing out exactly what you asked for did not meet your criteria.
THE NEXT SENTENCE states.
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
So now we have exact page numbers referenced in The Movement Phase and permission to move past 6".
Automatically Appended Next Post: Still no reference on how to find this?
Go to pages 61-71.
Page 67 BRB
MOVEMENT
Beasts can move up to 12" in the Movement phase. Beasts are not slowed by difficult terrain (even when charging) and automatically pass Dangerous Terrain tests.
Holy hotdogs! It says movement.
I wonder what it means.
It says Movement Phase, is movement phase a core rule?
doctortom wrote: Ceann, for more evidence that you are dealing with advanced rules in the Unit Types section, let's consider the Bikes and Jetbikes section. Ir leads off with Armoured Steed rules, which are separate from the Special Rules section for Bikes and Jetbikes. We are told that they get a +1 toughness (included in profile for a unit that already gets them as wargear), that they cannot go to ground and that they cannot be pinned.
The toughness increase modifies (overrides) the basic stat. Not being able to go to ground and not being able to be pinned override the basic rules for going to ground (pinning refers you back to the basic rules for going to ground). Since you are overriding the Go to Ground rule with this rule, it has to be an advanced rule.
Incorrect.
Bike Units have the Relentless Special Rule as notated in the Unit Type profile.
A bike is a piece of wargear, which you will find located in the Army List Entry for Units.
The codex rules for a bike will tell you that you need to increase the toughness in circumstances where applicable.
Page 8 gives wargear permission to modify values, as a basic rule.
I...wow.
Armoured Steed, page 63.
"Bike and Jetbike riders benefit from an increase to their Toughness characteristic by 1."
That doesn't mention any kind of wargear. Bikes and jet bikes are unit types that confer a +1T bonus.
Bikes can also be wargear as stated right after that, in which case the bonus is already applied when they come with it.
"If the Bike or Jetbike is part of the model's standard wargear, this bonus is already included on it's profile."
Ceann wrote: Stop cherry picking, read the ENTIRE SECTION for the movement phase.
You asked for something that referenced the unit types pages specifically. I PROVIDED THAT with page numbers in the dead tree version of BRB.
Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.
Now you claim it doesn't mention movement, because apparently me pointing out exactly what you asked for did not meet your criteria.
THE NEXT SENTENCE states.
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
So now we have exact page numbers referenced in The Movement Phase and permission to move past 6".
You are cherry-picking what you are listening to what I am saying. Quite disingenuous.
I said Movement Distance does not refer to Unit Types, not the Movement Section. What other portion of the Movement Phase defines Movement Distance in the Movement Phase?
Ceann wrote: Still no reference on how to find this?
Go to pages 61-71.
Page 67 BRB
MOVEMENT
Beasts can move up to 12" in the Movement phase. Beasts are not slowed by difficult terrain (even when charging) and automatically pass Dangerous Terrain tests.
Holy hotdogs! It says movement.
I wonder what it means.
It says Movement Phase, is movement phase a core rule?
So anything that refers itself to something in the core rules is a basic rule? I missed that definition.in Basic vs Advanced.
Nor does that change the double standard of considering Zooming Advanced for its Movement, but not Beasts.
doctortom wrote: Ceann, for more evidence that you are dealing with advanced rules in the Unit Types section, let's consider the Bikes and Jetbikes section. Ir leads off with Armoured Steed rules, which are separate from the Special Rules section for Bikes and Jetbikes. We are told that they get a +1 toughness (included in profile for a unit that already gets them as wargear), that they cannot go to ground and that they cannot be pinned.
The toughness increase modifies (overrides) the basic stat. Not being able to go to ground and not being able to be pinned override the basic rules for going to ground (pinning refers you back to the basic rules for going to ground). Since you are overriding the Go to Ground rule with this rule, it has to be an advanced rule.
Incorrect.
Bike Units have the Relentless Special Rule as notated in the Unit Type profile.
A bike is a piece of wargear, which you will find located in the Army List Entry for Units.
The codex rules for a bike will tell you that you need to increase the toughness in circumstances where applicable.
Page 8 gives wargear permission to modify values, as a basic rule.
Bike being a piece of wargear is irrelevant. They can define something as a bike unit, or a jump pack unit, or a jet pack unit, without it actually having wargear.
Let's go for something else then. Monstrous Creatures - They have a rule that lets them shoot two weapons per shooting phase, not just one weapon. That overrides normal shooting rules of firing one weapon. Therfore, it is an advanced rule.
Flying Monstrous Creatures - everything about flight modes are advanced rules. Gliding, it moves as a jump infantry unit (note that it does NOT have to be a piece of wargear making it a flying monstrous creature). Swooping is chock full of rules. Grounded test rules are not in the basic rules section. Not tank shocking a swooping FMC is an advance rule. These are all separate from the special rules.
Vehicles - chock full of its own special rules, not the least of which is how to handle "to wound" on vehicles, which does not go by normal vehicles rules. You can buy a vehicle as a unit, not just as a piece of wargear.
doctortom wrote: Ceann, for more evidence that you are dealing with advanced rules in the Unit Types section, let's consider the Bikes and Jetbikes section. Ir leads off with Armoured Steed rules, which are separate from the Special Rules section for Bikes and Jetbikes. We are told that they get a +1 toughness (included in profile for a unit that already gets them as wargear), that they cannot go to ground and that they cannot be pinned.
The toughness increase modifies (overrides) the basic stat. Not being able to go to ground and not being able to be pinned override the basic rules for going to ground (pinning refers you back to the basic rules for going to ground). Since you are overriding the Go to Ground rule with this rule, it has to be an advanced rule.
Incorrect.
Bike Units have the Relentless Special Rule as notated in the Unit Type profile.
A bike is a piece of wargear, which you will find located in the Army List Entry for Units.
The codex rules for a bike will tell you that you need to increase the toughness in circumstances where applicable.
Page 8 gives wargear permission to modify values, as a basic rule.
I...wow.
Armoured Steed, page 63.
"Bike and Jetbike riders benefit from an increase to their Toughness characteristic by 1."
That doesn't mention any kind of wargear. Bikes and jet bikes are unit types that confer a +1T bonus.
Bikes can also be wargear as stated right after that, in which case the bonus is already applied.
"If the Bike or Jetbike is part of the model's standard wargear, this bonus is already included on it's profile."
It doesn't?
What unit are you talking about?
Space Marines on bikes?
I can tell you that with a 100% certantity that if I open my SM codex and go to that squad it will list a bike under their wargear.
Advanced Rules can be applied on the Army List Entry.
If i have a unit and a SINGLE MODEL, you know a SPECIFIC MODEL, in the unit purchases a bike.
Then THAT MODEL will have the bonus. Making it an advanced rule.
Take chaos bikers. They have the "bike" unit type as well as a chaos bike in their wargear.
A chaos bike changes the unit type to bike, which in this case doies nothing as they already are bikers, explaining their T5.
A chaos lord however can purchase a bike, changing his type from infantry to bike and as a result giving him the +1T for being of the bike type. The chaos bike wargear does NOT add +1T, it merely changes the unit type.
Space Marines on bikes?
I can tell you that with a 100% certantity that if I open my SM codex and go to that squad it will list a bike under their wargear.
Advanced Rules can be applied on the Army List Entry.
If i have a unit and a SINGLE MODEL, you know a SPECIFIC MODEL, in the unit purchases a bike.
Then THAT MODEL will have the bonus. Making it an advanced rule.
The Codex Bike Squad does not have a Wargear called simply "Bike". It has a Wargear called "Space Marine Bike".
The reason for this is two-fold.
1) Space Marine Bikes also provide a Twin-linked Bolter. This is above and beyond what the Unit Type will provide.
2) Several Infantry Characters can purchase this Wargear as an option. The Wargear handles the conversion from Infantry to Bike Unit Types.
Space Marines on bikes?
I can tell you that with a 100% certantity that if I open my SM codex and go to that squad it will list a bike under their wargear.
Advanced Rules can be applied on the Army List Entry.
If i have a unit and a SINGLE MODEL, you know a SPECIFIC MODEL, in the unit purchases a bike.
Then THAT MODEL will have the bonus. Making it an advanced rule.
The Codex Bike Squad does not have a Wargear called simply "Bike". It has a Wargear called "Space Marine Bike".
The reason for this is two-fold.
1) Space Marine Bikes also provide a Twin-linked Bolter. This is above and beyond what the Unit Type will provide.
2) Several Infantry Characters can purchase this Wargear as an option. The Wargear handles the conversion from Infantry to Bike Unit Types.
Likewise, the Eldar (Craftworld or Dark) do not purchase "jetbike", they purchase a specific warbike. An autarch, buying that changes his unit type to jetbike.
doctortom wrote: Ceann, for more evidence that you are dealing with advanced rules in the Unit Types section, let's consider the Bikes and Jetbikes section. Ir leads off with Armoured Steed rules, which are separate from the Special Rules section for Bikes and Jetbikes. We are told that they get a +1 toughness (included in profile for a unit that already gets them as wargear), that they cannot go to ground and that they cannot be pinned.
The toughness increase modifies (overrides) the basic stat. Not being able to go to ground and not being able to be pinned override the basic rules for going to ground (pinning refers you back to the basic rules for going to ground). Since you are overriding the Go to Ground rule with this rule, it has to be an advanced rule.
Incorrect.
Bike Units have the Relentless Special Rule as notated in the Unit Type profile.
A bike is a piece of wargear, which you will find located in the Army List Entry for Units.
The codex rules for a bike will tell you that you need to increase the toughness in circumstances where applicable.
Page 8 gives wargear permission to modify values, as a basic rule.
Bike being a piece of wargear is irrelevant. They can define something as a bike unit, or a jump pack unit, or a jet pack unit, without it actually having wargear.
Let's go for something else then. Monstrous Creatures - They have a rule that lets them shoot two weapons per shooting phase, not just one weapon. That overrides normal shooting rules of firing one weapon. Therfore, it is an advanced rule.
Flying Monstrous Creatures - everything about flight modes are advanced rules. Gliding, it moves as a jump infantry unit (note that it does NOT have to be a piece of wargear making it a flying monstrous creature). Swooping is chock full of rules. Grounded test rules are not in the basic rules section. Not tank shocking a swooping FMC is an advance rule. These are all separate from the special rules.
Vehicles - chock full of its own special rules, not the least of which is how to handle "to wound" on vehicles, which does not go by normal vehicles rules. You can buy a vehicle as a unit, not just as a piece of wargear.
Really? Lets check.
What shooting rule is a MC breaking?
SELECT ANOTHER WEAPON
After the attacks from the currently selected weapon have been completely resolved, if the firing unit is equipped with a differently named shooting weapon that has yet to fire, you can now select it and shoot with it at the same target unit. This is resolved in exactly the same way as the first weapon you selected, but you may now find that due to the casualties you inflicted that there are now fewer models in the target unit in range.
Looks to me like per the Core Rules he is 100% allowed to shoot two weapons.
Ok... FMC now.
Say it uses the jump rules, ok.
MOVEMENT PHASE
If a Jump model uses its jump pack (or equivalent) in the Movement phase, it can move up to 12".
Says movement phase, looks like a basic rule to me.
Per Core Rules - In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
Space Marines on bikes?
I can tell you that with a 100% certantity that if I open my SM codex and go to that squad it will list a bike under their wargear.
Advanced Rules can be applied on the Army List Entry.
If i have a unit and a SINGLE MODEL, you know a SPECIFIC MODEL, in the unit purchases a bike.
Then THAT MODEL will have the bonus. Making it an advanced rule.
The Codex Bike Squad does not have a Wargear called simply "Bike". It has a Wargear called "Space Marine Bike".
The reason for this is two-fold.
1) Space Marine Bikes also provide a Twin-linked Bolter. This is above and beyond what the Unit Type will provide.
2) Several Infantry Characters can purchase this Wargear as an option. The Wargear handles the conversion from Infantry to Bike Unit Types.
Likewise, the Eldar (Craftworld or Dark) do not purchase "jetbike", they purchase a specific warbike. An autarch, buying that changes his unit type to jetbike.
Excellent.
And buying items is part of advanced rules, located on the Army List Entry, in the case you are referring to A SPECIFIC MODEL, which is detailed in basic vs advanced.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Roknar wrote: Take chaos bikers. They have the "bike" unit type as well as a chaos bike in their wargear.
A chaos bike changes the unit type to bike, which in this case doies nothing as they already are bikers, explaining their T5.
A chaos lord however can purchase a bike, changing his type from infantry to bike and as a result giving him the +1T for being of the bike type. The chaos bike wargear does NOT add +1T, it merely changes the unit type.
Yes! You are getting it now.
So you see in basic vs advanced, this would be a case where it is referencing a SPECIFIC MODEL instead of a Unit.
If the Chaos Lord who bought a bike joins a unit, the bike is specific to him.
In a Bike Unit, all of the models have bikes.
If a chaos lord without a bike, joined a bike unit, he would not gain +1.
So when basic vs advanced it is talking about something a SPECIFIC model has.
All advanced rules for a unit are applied in it's Army List Entry.
I am attempting to contest various "one liners" that people seem to think validate this idea that all Unit Types are advanced rules.
So I guess the question is WHY do I think this?
Because all of the rules in the unit types section, pertain to, how those types of units take actions during those phases.
No rules that are introduced in the Unit Types section contradict anything in the core rules. In order for a rule to be an advanced rule, it has to follow the same requirement as a special rule, which is that it must be BREAKING a rule.
1.
A beast moving 12" is not breaking a rule. It is stated in the core rules section that units may move their maximum value. No rule is being broken.
2.
Choosing a weapon is a basic rule.
No one is on here arguing that Lasguns and Bolters are advanced rules. Because they aren't.
The option to choose a weapon, lets you pick a weapon from the list of weapons your unit has to use. Just like "movement" is letting you pick a movement from the movement options available to you.
Unit type merely defines what options you have, it does not introduce any new rules.
A unit type is no different than a weapon type. Both are basic rules.
Psyker powers are basic rules, choosing which branch of powers is in the back of the book, it however doesn't make them advanced rules, it is simply the location of the rules that apply to a particular type of powers.
Just like unit type discusses the core rules as they apply to those types of units.
Infantry were used as they are the least complicated unit type, to explain how the core rules function in action.
The statement that all of the basic rules are in the core rules section still remains true.
The Unit Types section is the "Weaponry" section for units.
Weapons have, assault, heavy, bombs, ordnance etc.
Units have, infantry, vehicle, MC, etc.
SELECT ANOTHER WEAPON
After the attacks from the currently selected weapon have been completely resolved, if the firing unit is equipped with a differently named shooting weapon that has yet to fire, you can now select it and shoot with it at the same target unit. This is resolved in exactly the same way as the first weapon you selected, but you may now find that due to the casualties you inflicted that there are now fewer models in the target unit in range.
Looks to me like per the Core Rules he is 100% allowed to shoot two weapons.
Look up More Than One Weapon in the Weapon section.
MOVEMENT PHASE
If a Jump model uses its jump pack (or equivalent) in the Movement phase, it can move up to 12".
Says movement phase, looks like a basic rule to me.
Per Core Rules - In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
Referring back to a Phase is not declaring itself to be Basic Rules. Please tell me where that is defined.
If we went by that, nothing would be and Advanced Rule except for List Building and Mission Rule, because every rule refers back to something in those areas.
And buying items is part of advanced rules, located on the Army List Entry, in the case you are referring to A SPECIFIC MODEL, which is detailed in basic vs advanced.
Unit Type is also listed on the Army List Entry, by the way. And that is the only place a model can be defined as such.
So you see in basic vs advanced, this would be a case where it is referencing a SPECIFIC MODEL instead of a Unit.
If the Chaos Lord who bought a bike joins a unit, the bike is specific to him.
In a Bike Unit, all of the models have bikes.
If a chaos lord without a bike, joined a bike unit, he would not gain +1.
So when basic vs advanced it is talking about something a SPECIFIC model has.
All advanced rules for a unit are applied in it's Army List Entry.
But that goes against your stance before now.
You have claimed that a Bike Character would become Infantry if it joined an Infantry unit.
Not to mention, the Unit Type is also defined for the specific models listed on the datasheet, so would then be an Advanced Rule.
But then, you are taking some of these phrases out to right field and declaring them to be the 3rd basemen.
In order for a rule to be an advanced rule, it has to follow the same requirement as a special rule, which is that it must be BREAKING a rule.
Why? The description of advanced rules doesn't say this.
The advanced rules are things which are not in the core rules section. There is no other definition, stated or intended. The only difference between core and advanced is to make the simple things easy to understand for beginners. This is a game written for children, so they put the simpler stuff first.
Ceann wrote: I am attempting to contest various "one liners" that people seem to think validate this idea that all Unit Types are advanced rules.
It doesn't help that you don't quote what you are responding to very well, this quoted post being a sample of that, and then you erroneously respond to someone else while we are are responding to your response.
In order for a rule to be an advanced rule, it has to follow the same requirement as a special rule, which is that it must be BREAKING a rule.
Why? The description of advanced rules doesn't say this.
The advanced rules are things which are not in the core rules section. There is no other definition, stated or intended. The only difference between core and advanced is to make the simple things easy to understand for beginners. This is a game written for children, so they put the simpler stuff first.
The definition of special rules does state this, though.
If we went by that, nothing would be and Advanced Rule except for List Building and Mission Rule, because every rule refers back to something in those areas.
The only rules located in the Unit Types section are basic rules for those type and any special rules notated to them in their Special Rules section.
Advanced rules that apply to units can be found in Army List Entry's, not found in the BRB.
I have not claimed a Bike Character would become infantry if it joined an infantry unit. I claimed it would meet the criteria of Advanced Rules as they apply to a SPECIFIC model.
Which is the critera that you all have been trying to conflate to an entire unit "because it contains models" A unit containing models is still not a specific model. A specific model is a specific model.
If the unit is an infantry unit, it will always be an infantry unti.
Just like a bike unit with 12 IC's attached is still a bike unit.
Each of those 12 ADVANCED RULES SPECIFIC MODELS may have individual rules that apply to them as a model and not the unit.
MOVEMENT PHASE
If a Jump model uses its jump pack (or equivalent) in the Movement phase, it can move up to 12".
Says movement phase, looks like a basic rule to me.
And that's your problem. All basic movement rules are movement rules, but not all movement rules are basic rules.
Ceann wrote: Per Core Rules - In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
Which is 6" according to the FIRST SENTENCE under "MOVEMENT DISTANCES" - "Models move up to 6" in the movement phase.' Okay, we've established that...wait a minute, they don't move 6". The basic movement rule of 6" must have been OVERRIDDEN. It can't be a basic rule overriding it, it has to be an advance rule.
Once again, answer this question: Where does the Core Rules section end? We are told this section contains all the core rules. What section are Unit Rules in, the Core Rules? (answer - no, the Unit Rules section). So, any rules that contradict a basic rule when the rule is not in the core rule section must be an advanced rule.
In order for a rule to be an advanced rule, it has to follow the same requirement as a special rule, which is that it must be BREAKING a rule.
Why? The description of advanced rules doesn't say this.
The advanced rules are things which are not in the core rules section. There is no other definition, stated or intended. The only difference between core and advanced is to make the simple things easy to understand for beginners. This is a game written for children, so they put the simpler stuff first.
From basic vs advanced...
"""For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does
not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex.
Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence."""
A special rule is an advanced rule, as notated above.
If an advanced rule is a special rule, it must be breaking a rule in order to be an advanced rule.
There are no basic rules for the various unit types. That notion goes against the very definition of a basic rule.
Basic rules apply to ALL models. The rules for the various unit types only apply to those specific models as opposed to ALL models.
That makes the unit types advanced rules. Advanced rules that apply to all models of a given type.
So yes, they are a template for a rather large sub set of models,.
And applying to only a subset of ALL models makes those rules NOT basic rules.
MOVEMENT PHASE
If a Jump model uses its jump pack (or equivalent) in the Movement phase, it can move up to 12".
Says movement phase, looks like a basic rule to me.
And that's your problem. All basic movement rules are movement rules, but not all movement rules are basic rules.
Ceann wrote: Per Core Rules - In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
Which is 6" according to the FIRST SENTENCE under "MOVEMENT DISTANCES" - "Models move up to 6" in the movement phase.' Okay, we've established that...wait a minute, they don't move 6". The basic movement rule of 6" must have been OVERRIDDEN. It can't be a basic rule overriding it, it has to be an advance rule.
Once again, answer this question: Where does the Core Rules section end? We are told this section contains all the core rules. What section are Unit Rules in, the Core Rules? (answer - no, the Unit Rules section). So, any rules that contradict a basic rule when the rule is not in the core rule section must be an advanced rule.
And I will ask you as I have asked everyone else.
We have THREE statements from the CORE RULES - MOVEMENT PHASE section.
1.
For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by
far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71).
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to
their maximum movement distance.
2.
Movement Distance - Subsection- Different Movement Distances Within a Unit
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the
case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains
in unit coherency (see below).
3.
Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase.
1, 2 and 3, cannot ALL be correct.
On 1. it states we are going to talk about Infantry first and the rest LATER, with the page numbers and then on 3, it tells us 6". Clearly it is only talking about infantry because it just TOLD US it was going to tell us about infantry. It did not state that 6" is the defacto standard for movement, it said we would talk about the others later and included the page numbers.
If we went by that, nothing would be and Advanced Rule except for List Building and Mission Rule, because every rule refers back to something in those areas.
The only rules located in the Unit Types section are basic rules for those type and any special rules notated to them in their Special Rules section.
Advanced rules that apply to units can be found in Army List Entry's, not found in the BRB.
Except, that is not the definition of either, and you are applying a double standard by pushing this definition.
You are taking something that refers back to something as a definition of it being basic. This is not the case at any point. It is only when those areas match exactly with those rules met for the Infantry Unit Type, that they are Basic. When they go beyond it, they are Advanced.
As the definition of the Advanced rules state, "whether it is because they possess a special kind of weapon, unusual skills, because they are different to their fellows, or because they are not normal infantry models."
By taking this stance, you are ignoring this very specific definition
Ceann wrote: I have not claimed a Bike Character would become infantry if it joined an infantry unit. I claimed it would meet the criteria of Advanced Rules as they apply to a SPECIFIC model.
Sorry, you said it the other way in the previous thread. You said, "If I add an IC with a bike to the unit that unit may have those rules, if the IC leaves those rules leave with him, that is advanced."
You were talking about the Bike rules that the IC carried with them.
Ceann wrote: Which is the critera that you all have been trying to conflate to an entire unit "because it contains models" A unit containing models is still not a specific model. A specific model is a specific model.
But they do apply to every specific model in the unit. You are deliberately blinding yourself to this.
Do the individual models in a Bike unit (without IC's) have Relentless, yes or no?
Ceann wrote: If the unit is an infantry unit, it will always be an infantry unti.
Just like a bike unit with 12 IC's attached is still a bike unit.
Each of those 12 ADVANCED RULES SPECIFIC MODELS may have individual rules that apply to them as a model and not the unit.
And I see you still have not read any of the Unit Type rules which specifically state that their rules apply to the models. I have quoted from the introduction of the Unit Types that this very thing happens.
You are considering that the "Unit Type" only applies to "units", which is taking the name far too literally and ignoring numerous other statements which states otherwise.
In addition, you do not seem to understand the relationship between unit and model. Anything that is applied to the unit whole, affects the individual models which make up the unit. This is how Stubborn and Shrouded work. This is not how Relentless works.
MOVEMENT PHASE
If a Jump model uses its jump pack (or equivalent) in the Movement phase, it can move up to 12".
Says movement phase, looks like a basic rule to me.
And that's your problem. All basic movement rules are movement rules, but not all movement rules are basic rules.
Ceann wrote: Per Core Rules - In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
Which is 6" according to the FIRST SENTENCE under "MOVEMENT DISTANCES" - "Models move up to 6" in the movement phase.' Okay, we've established that...wait a minute, they don't move 6". The basic movement rule of 6" must have been OVERRIDDEN. It can't be a basic rule overriding it, it has to be an advance rule.
Once again, answer this question: Where does the Core Rules section end? We are told this section contains all the core rules. What section are Unit Rules in, the Core Rules? (answer - no, the Unit Rules section). So, any rules that contradict a basic rule when the rule is not in the core rule section must be an advanced rule.
And I will ask you as I have asked everyone else.
We have THREE statements from the CORE RULES - MOVEMENT PHASE section.
1.
For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by
far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71).
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to
their maximum movement distance.
2.
Movement Distance - Subsection- Different Movement Distances Within a Unit
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the
case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains
in unit coherency (see below).
3.
Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase.
1, 2 and 3, cannot ALL be correct.
On 1. it states we are going to talk about Infantry first and the rest LATER, with the page numbers and then on 3, it tells us 6". Clearly it is only talking about infantry because it just TOLD US it was going to tell us about infantry. It did not state that 6" is the defacto standard for movement, it said we would talk about the others later and included the page numbers.
They can be correct when there is an ADVANCED rule later that OVERRIDES rule 3. We ARE given rule 3 as a specific basic rule, though. As others have told you before, rules 1 and 2 are not written in ignorance of there being advanced rules later in the book. Advanced rules will override rule 3.
Once again, answer this question: Where does the Core Rules section end? We are told this section contains all the core rules.
Roknar wrote: There are no basic rules for the various unit types. That notion goes against the very definition of a basic rule.
Basic rules apply to ALL models. The rules for the various unit types only apply to those specific models as opposed to ALL models.
That makes the unit types advanced rules. Advanced rules that apply to all models of a given type.
So yes, they are a template for a rather large sub set of models,.
And applying to only a subset of ALL models makes those rules NOT basic rules.
THESE are the requirements for advanced rules.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models...
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.
Which of these are A specific model Roknar?
Which of these is are units?
MOVEMENT PHASE
If a Jump model uses its jump pack (or equivalent) in the Movement phase, it can move up to 12".
Says movement phase, looks like a basic rule to me.
And that's your problem. All basic movement rules are movement rules, but not all movement rules are basic rules.
Ceann wrote: Per Core Rules - In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
Which is 6" according to the FIRST SENTENCE under "MOVEMENT DISTANCES" - "Models move up to 6" in the movement phase.' Okay, we've established that...wait a minute, they don't move 6". The basic movement rule of 6" must have been OVERRIDDEN. It can't be a basic rule overriding it, it has to be an advance rule.
Once again, answer this question: Where does the Core Rules section end? We are told this section contains all the core rules. What section are Unit Rules in, the Core Rules? (answer - no, the Unit Rules section). So, any rules that contradict a basic rule when the rule is not in the core rule section must be an advanced rule.
And I will ask you as I have asked everyone else.
We have THREE statements from the CORE RULES - MOVEMENT PHASE section.
1.
For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by
far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71).
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to
their maximum movement distance.
2.
Movement Distance - Subsection- Different Movement Distances Within a Unit
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the
case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains
in unit coherency (see below).
3.
Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase.
1, 2 and 3, cannot ALL be correct.
On 1. it states we are going to talk about Infantry first and the rest LATER, with the page numbers and then on 3, it tells us 6". Clearly it is only talking about infantry because it just TOLD US it was going to tell us about infantry. It did not state that 6" is the defacto standard for movement, it said we would talk about the others later and included the page numbers.
They can be correct when there is an ADVANCED rule later that OVERRIDES rule 3. We ARE given rule 3 as a specific basic rule, though. As others have told you before, rules 1 and 2 are not written in ignorance of there being advanced rules later in the book. Advanced rules will override rule 3.
Once again, answer this question: Where does the Core Rules section end? We are told this section contains all the core rules.
Where is the location of the Unit Type - Infantry located?
On the FIRST PAGE of unit types.
If the rules that apply to Unit Type - Infantry are located in the core rules section.
Then we know that those are values take from the Unit Types section and plugged into the core rules.
Otherwise because the Unit Infantry Type is in advanced rule section, none of the rules work because they have no values.
An advanced rule is not necessarily a special rule.
The definition of a special rule is "an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules." So, unless we're including Advanced Rules as part of the main game rules, then yes, advanced rules are special rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote:THESE are the requirements for advanced rules.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models...
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.
That's cherry-picking.
The requirements for Advanced rules are because of:
* Of a Weapon
* Unusual Skill
* Different from their fellows
* Not Normal Infantry Models
It is not a requirement that they be indicated on the Army List Entry, that part is just letting you know where to find them. Even if it were, where do I find out that a Codex Bike Marine is of the Bike Unit Type?
Ceann wrote:Where is the location of the Unit Type - Infantry located?
On the FIRST PAGE of unit types.
And what does it say? Does it say anything to exempt this unit type from the basic rules?
No. It specifically states the opposite. "As the bulk of the rules are concerned with them, there are no additional rules to present here."
Roknar wrote: There are no basic rules for the various unit types. That notion goes against the very definition of a basic rule.
Basic rules apply to ALL models. The rules for the various unit types only apply to those specific models as opposed to ALL models.
That makes the unit types advanced rules. Advanced rules that apply to all models of a given type.
So yes, they are a template for a rather large sub set of models,.
And applying to only a subset of ALL models makes those rules NOT basic rules.
THESE are the requirements for advanced rules.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models...
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.
Which of these are A specific model Roknar?
Which of these is are units?
1. Bikers
3 Bikers
2. Veterans
1 Sergeant:
4 Veteran:
You forgot another requirement for advanced rules - it must not be a basic rule.
Page 7: (beginning of Core Rules) "This secton contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight Warhammer 40,000 battles"
Once again, answer this question: Where does the Core Rules section end? We are told this section contains all the core rules
MOVEMENT PHASE
If a Jump model uses its jump pack (or equivalent) in the Movement phase, it can move up to 12".
Says movement phase, looks like a basic rule to me.
And that's your problem. All basic movement rules are movement rules, but not all movement rules are basic rules.
Ceann wrote: Per Core Rules - In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
Which is 6" according to the FIRST SENTENCE under "MOVEMENT DISTANCES" - "Models move up to 6" in the movement phase.' Okay, we've established that...wait a minute, they don't move 6". The basic movement rule of 6" must have been OVERRIDDEN. It can't be a basic rule overriding it, it has to be an advance rule.
Once again, answer this question: Where does the Core Rules section end? We are told this section contains all the core rules. What section are Unit Rules in, the Core Rules? (answer - no, the Unit Rules section). So, any rules that contradict a basic rule when the rule is not in the core rule section must be an advanced rule.
And I will ask you as I have asked everyone else.
We have THREE statements from the CORE RULES - MOVEMENT PHASE section.
1.
For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by
far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71).
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to
their maximum movement distance.
2.
Movement Distance - Subsection- Different Movement Distances Within a Unit
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the
case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains
in unit coherency (see below).
3.
Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase.
1, 2 and 3, cannot ALL be correct.
On 1. it states we are going to talk about Infantry first and the rest LATER, with the page numbers and then on 3, it tells us 6". Clearly it is only talking about infantry because it just TOLD US it was going to tell us about infantry. It did not state that 6" is the defacto standard for movement, it said we would talk about the others later and included the page numbers.
They can be correct when there is an ADVANCED rule later that OVERRIDES rule 3. We ARE given rule 3 as a specific basic rule, though. As others have told you before, rules 1 and 2 are not written in ignorance of there being advanced rules later in the book. Advanced rules will override rule 3.
Once again, answer this question: Where does the Core Rules section end? We are told this section contains all the core rules.
Where is the location of the Unit Type - Infantry located?
On the FIRST PAGE of unit types.
The infantry rules that say "no additional rules are required" There are no new rules written for Infantry, therefore the infantry is covered by the basic rules. The other units have new rules, though. These rules are not basic rules. They are not in the core rules section.
Ceann wrote: If the rules that apply to Unit Type - Infantry are located in the core rules section.
Then we know that those are values take from the Unit Types section and plugged into the core rules.
Otherwise because the Unit Infantry Type is in advanced rule section, none of the rules work because they have no values.
We are told there are NO NEW RULES for infantry,, so the basic rules cover all the rules for infantry. This does NOT mean that ALL unit type rules are infantry rules. Advanced rules are rules that can override the basic rules. If there is no need to override the basic rules, they don't. For example, you do not see new shooting rules for jump packs or jet packs, so you use the basic rules. Any rule that is not in the basic section that's here, though, IS an advanced rule and overrides the basic rule. We are told Bike units move 12". The basic rules say you move 6". The rule for Bike units overrides the basic rule for moving 6". This is a rule for the unit (which is not a rule for the wargear - the wargear give a unit or a model the unit type, but it is the unit type that grants the movement rule. Again, it doesn not have to be wargear - see FMC).
Merely being told that there is a unit type does not mean that all the rules for the unit type are basic rules, which is the fundamental mistake you keep making.
We can't explain it to you. Not only do you not agree on what is a basic rule and what not, you don't even agree to the definition of a basic rule.
That makes it impossible to debate as you are basing all your statements on a completely different standard and you apply those standards to our arguments too.
Ceann wrote: This needs to be done a different way...
1.
Is a Stormbolter a basic rule, or advanced rule?
2.
Is Psychic Shriek a basic rule, or an advanced rule?
Why don't you respond to others' counter points rather than just changing tack without acknowledging them at all?
Without having my books on me I would say a storm bolter is an item if wargear which applies advanced rules by virtue of normal Infantry models not being equipped with it. Similarly with psychic shriek being a psychic power.
Ceann wrote: This needs to be done a different way...
1.
Is a Stormbolter a basic rule, or advanced rule?
2.
Is Psychic Shriek a basic rule, or an advanced rule?
Why don't you respond to others' counter points rather than just changing tack without acknowledging them at all?
Because the discussion involving movement is based upon a single flawed factor.
That infantry were used as the example to explain how the rules work.
Something has to be used an example when you are explaining something, in order to show how it functions.
If you actually read all of the movement rules, it tells you "a unit moves, when models move" It never says "when an infantry model moves".
Because they were used as the example movement is for some reason considered a standard even though it is never stated to be a standard, the unit type section is never specifically referred too by "basic vs advanced" and that page the Index directs us to page 13, which tells us to consult Army List Entry's, not the Unit Types section.
In order to separate that flaw from the argument I have referred to the above.
Ceann wrote: This needs to be done a different way...
1.
Is a Stormbolter a basic rule, or advanced rule?
2.
Is Psychic Shriek a basic rule, or an advanced rule?
Go back and answer our questions first, don't just dodge them because you're uncomfortable answering them. Others had their questions and challenges as well, but to try to start with a basic where we can agree on things, I really need you to answer my question:
Where does the Core Rules section end? We are told this section contains all the core rules
EDIT: I also already answered the Stormbolter part with the reason why, and asked you to answer your own question. You haven't yet. Do YOU think a Stormbolter is a basic rule or an advanced rule?
The rules for infantry have nothing to do with basic rules. At all. They could remove infantry from the game and the rules would still hold. All the rules for infantry just happen to be in line with the basic rules without the need for any additions or changes.
An advanced rule is not necessarily a special rule.
The definition of a special rule is "an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules." So, unless we're including Advanced Rules as part of the main game rules, then yes, advanced rules are special rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote:THESE are the requirements for advanced rules.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models...
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.
That's cherry-picking.
The requirements for Advanced rules are because of:
* Of a Weapon
* Unusual Skill
* Different from their fellows
* Not Normal Infantry Models
It is not a requirement that they be indicated on the Army List Entry, that part is just letting you know where to find them. Even if it were, where do I find out that a Codex Bike Marine is of the Bike Unit Type?
Ceann wrote:Where is the location of the Unit Type - Infantry located?
On the FIRST PAGE of unit types.
And what does it say? Does it say anything to exempt this unit type from the basic rules?
No. It specifically states the opposite. "As the bulk of the rules are concerned with them, there are no additional rules to present here."
Ignoring that statement is cherry-picking.
main game rules includes everything. A special rule can do anything it wants.
The basic rules are...
Models & Units,
General Principals,
The Turn,
The Movement Phase,
The Psychic Phase,
The Shooting Phase,
The Assault Phase,
And Morale.
Unit types merely tells you HOW a particular unit performs an action within one of those phases. It does not add any new phases, all phases have been discussed in the core rules section.
Unit types are the options for units within those phases.
Weaponry are the options for units within those phases.
Melee Weapons etc.
Psychic Powers etc.
If a model performs an action during any of those phases, those are basic rules and they apply to ALL MODELS.
You want to learn how to play football.
So you ask your friend.
Your friend puts together two teams to teach you how to play the game. On each team, each person is exactly identical to be the least confusing as possible.
You take your team and play against someone else.
You find out his players are all different from yours, they have different weights, some move faster than others, some are taller, some are shorter.
Did this person break any rules for his team?
No.
He is playing the same game you are, by the same set of rules you are. Some of his players are different than yours, since you decided to keep the team you were showed how to play with, that doesn't mean the other player is doing anything wrong.
This is exactly the scenario we have.
You claim that Unit Types in that section do things differently than infantry therefore... they are breaking basic rules! Those guys must be advanced rules then.
This is incorrect, what this means is that the flexibility available to you, was not demonstrated to you when you were learning how to play.
It's not even that you don't accept our arguments, your own standards don't hold up.
If both teams are identical, then they can't possibly be of different weights etc. That's kind of the point of being identical, they are 100% the same.
And if they're not, well...they're not. There isn't really any leeway there.
Same for the rules, they either apply to all models or they don't.
Roknar wrote: It's not even that you don't accept our arguments, your own standards don't hold up.
If both teams are identical, then they can't possibly be of different weights etc. That's kind of the point of being identical, they are 100% the same.
And if they're not, well...they're not. There isn't really any leeway there.
Same for the rules, they either apply to all models or they don't.
Dude...
Do you read the part where I said, takes his team and plays someone else.
Apparently not.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Discussing movement isn't working to get my point across.
This needs to be done a different way...
1.
Is a Stormbolter a basic rule, or advanced rule?
2.
Is Psychic Shriek a basic rule, or an advanced rule?
Ceann wrote:1. Is a Stormbolter a basic rule, or advanced rule?
Already answered. Neither. It is not a rule. It is a piece of Wargear known as a Weapon. It carries rules as part of its aspect. Some are basic. Some may be advanced. It is the equivalent of saying is a Tactical Marine a basic rule or advanced rule.
Ceann wrote:2. Is Psychic Shriek a basic rule, or an advanced rule?
Neither. It is a Psychic Power. It carries a butt-load of advanced rules, though. Some of which completely override its Witchfire nature.
These questions fail because the options exclude the nature of what the subject is.
Ceann wrote:Because the discussion involving movement is based upon a single flawed factor.
That infantry were used as the example to explain how the rules work.
Because they are stated to in several areas, including in the definition of Advanced Rules. Why do you ignore these statements, besides the fact that they do not agree with your paradigm?
Ceann wrote:Something has to be used an example when you are explaining something, in order to show how it functions.
If you actually read all of the movement rules, it tells you "a unit moves, when models move" It never says "when an infantry model moves".
Because Infantry models do not inherently change the Movement Distance rule that you consistently ignore. In addition, there are several other types of models which do follow Infantry Movement rules as well: Monstrous Creatures and Walkers to name two. In addition, the Character type does not address Movement at all, so being a Character does nothing to change the rules found in Movement Distance. Being a Jet Pack does not affect Movement Distance at all, just how it approaches some of Movement's interactions. It does add some optional movement in the Assault Phase, though.
It's been explained that way, but you have continued to ignore it. You would rather cherry-pick your rules and ignore the full context of their statements.
Ceann wrote:The basic rules are not "A model moves 6"
Error. The statement, "Models move up to 6" in the Movement Phase" can be found in Movement Distance in the Movement Phase rules. No instructions can be found in the Movement Distance to refer to the Unit Type to find a model's movement range.
Ceann wrote:The basic rules are...
Models & Units,
General Principals,
The Turn,
The Movement Phase, <Movement Distance can be found here, right at the beginning. Seriously, it is the very first subsection.
The Psychic Phase,
The Shooting Phase,
The Assault Phase,
And Morale.
Unit types merely tells you HOW a particular unit performs an action within one of those phases. It does not add any new phases, all phases have been discussed in the core rules section.
No, you are changing the location of a statement here. The Unit Type section never indicates this as a general rule for Unit Types. The Movement Phase does state that different unit types move in different ways, but it never tells us how, much less tell us to refer to them for their Movement Distance.
Ceann wrote:Unit types are the options for units within those phases.
Weaponry are the options for units within those phases.
Melee Weapons etc.
Psychic Powers etc.
If a model performs an action during any of those phases, those are basic rules and they apply to ALL MODELS.
Except the definition of Advance Rules states otherwise. The introduction to Unit Types states otherwise. The only thing that is saying this is you.
Between the book and another person, I usually lean on the book. Read my signature.>
The basic rules are...
Models & Units,
General Principals,
The Turn,
The Movement Phase,
The Psychic Phase,
The Shooting Phase,
The Assault Phase,
And Morale.
None of which answers my question - you are dodging.
Where is the end of the section called Core Rules?
Ceann wrote: Unit types merely tells you HOW a particular unit performs an action within one of those phases. It does not add any new phases, all phases have been discussed in the core rules section.
It gives you specific new rules that override rules given in the basic section. Special rules give you specific new rules that override and/or modify rules in the basic section. Fleet, for example, lets you reroll running distance. But, running is a basic rule. Going by your standards, however, fleet would have to be a basic rule and not an advanced rule despite being a special rule because it tells you HOW a particular units performs running within that phase. Yet, we know that isn't true, so obviously your assumption that telling you how to perform an action in another section is still a basic rule, even if it overrides rules in the basic section.
Different units are given different movement rules that overwrite the basic rule of a unit moving 6". If all movement rules are basic rules, then how can these rules override the basic rule on page 18 that models move 6"? Where are we given permission for basic rules to override other basic rules?
Ceann wrote: Unit types are the options for units within those phases.
Weaponry are the options for units within those phases.
Melee Weapons etc.
Psychic Powers etc.
If a model performs an action during any of those phases, those are basic rules and they apply to ALL MODELS.
Nope, sorry. Give us a rules quote to back up that statement. We've provided plenty of rules quotes and rules backings showing why the unit rules are advanced rules, yet you have not offered rules quotations to prove your assertiaon here.
So, again (and again and again and again), Where does the Core Rules section end? We are told this section contains all the core rules. Therefore, wherever that section ends has to be where the basic rules end.
Ceann, let me ask you this. If I handed you a box, and told you that it contained everything you needed to make the best fruit salad you've ever tasted, would you assume things in the box labeled "garbage" are part of the ingredient list?
1. Already answered. Neither. It is not a rule. It is a piece of Wargear known as a Weapon. It carries rules as part of its aspect. Some are basic. Some may be advanced. It is the equivalent of saying is a Tactical Marine a basic rule or advanced rule.
Sure, I can agree with that.
2. Neither. It is a Psychic Power. It carries a butt-load of advanced rules, though. Some of which completely override its Witchfire nature.
I can agree with this as well.
3. Because they are stated to in several areas, including in the definition of Advanced Rules. Why do you ignore these statements, besides the fact that they do not agree with your paradigm?
Disagree, I have quoted for you before, and the deadtree version has the page numbers, telling you where to find the movement rules for non-infantry types. The first page of the movement section explicitly explains it will be only discussing infantry now and will discuss the others later.
There are many times throughout the core rules section that specifically references the other unit types and that they will be discussed layer. You ignore all of these out of hand in favor of "6". You are doing, the very thing, you are accusing me of doing.
4.Error. The statement, "Models move up to 6" in the Movement Phase" can be found in Movement Distance in the Movement Phase rules. No instructions can be found in the Movement Distance to refer to the Unit Type to find a model's movement range.
Disagree, same as 3. I will quote, please compare them.
THE MOVEMENT PHASE
"""For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section pg (61-71)."""
This statement takes place, FIRST THING, before Movement Distance is even mentioned.
"""So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game. However, whilst the definition of
Infantry is incredibly broad it’s not enough to capture the full variety, scope and splendor of a war-torn galaxy teeming with all manner of alien beasts. In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model falls into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile, you’ll be able to find that information in the relevant codex or Army List Entry."""
Notice some relevant words here " For the time being, So far, as pertains to infantry, incredibly broad its not enough, extension of the characteristic profile.
5. No, you are changing the location of a statement here. The Unit Type section never indicates this as a general rule for Unit Types. The Movement Phase does state that different unit types move in different ways, but it never tells us how, much less tell us to refer to them for their Movement Distance.
Not sure what you mean, the statement I have quoted for the movement phase, is on the very first page of the movement phase, it exists even PRIOR to movement distance. We are told that they are going to explain the rules to us, using infantry.
6. Except the definition of Advance Rules states otherwise. The introduction to Unit Types states otherwise. The only thing that is saying this is you.
I can tell you up down and sideways what the Advanced Rules state. They DO NOT state, consult the Unit Types section, pull out a rubber stamp called "Advanced Rules" and put it on every page.
My questions for you.
1.Can a rule be a basic rule and an advance rule, simultaneously?
2. Why cannot a unit type, be to a unit profile, what wargear is, to a weapon profile. A combination of basic and advanced rules?
3. Does an Iron Halo have basic rules, or advanced rules?
Does a psyocculum have basic rules, or advanced rules?
4.
How do we determine which rules it carries?
- The rules for basic vs advanced only tell us about rules that apply to models and units.
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Spoiler:
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
Happyjew wrote: Ceann, where in the "Core Rules" section, do the rules talk about how Calvary moves, and how far?
BRB Page 18.
Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71).
A Chariot will move normally for a vehicle of their type.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
col_impact wrote: This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Spoiler:
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
1.Can a rule be a basic rule and an advance rule, simultaneously?
2. Why cannot a unit type, be to a unit profile, what wargear is, to a weapon profile. A combination of basic and advanced rules?
3. Does an Iron Halo have basic rules, or advanced rules?
Does a psyocculum have basic rules, or advanced rules?
4.
How do we determine which rules it carries?
- The rules for basic vs advanced only tell us about rules that apply to models and u
Happyjew wrote: Ceann, where in the "Core Rules" section, do the rules talk about how Calvary moves, and how far?
BRB Page 18.
Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71).
A Chariot will move normally for a vehicle of their type.
Cool. You just confirmed then that the movement rules for Calvary, etc. are not basic rules since the Core Rules section definitively says they are not in the Core Rules section by pointing to pg 61-71. That makes them advanced rules.
I figured I'd go back to your initial post.
Discussing from your point of view, which I strongly disagree with, so excuse me if I go off on a tangent here and there or get mixed up in what the actual rules are.
Ceann wrote: Per recent discussions and in order to avoid spillover that seems likely to occur...
I have opened this to discuss the following.
Which rules are basic rules.
Which rules are advanced rules.
Which rules are special rules.
I would assert the following...
1. All basic rules are contained within the BRB.
a. The core rules section tells us how all of the basic rules function in action.
b. That all rules, not located in the Special Rules, section of the BRB, are basic rules.
c. The splash page for the Core Rules section tells us that it contains ALL basic rules.
B and C contradict themselves.
B claims that all rules other than the universal special rules are basic rules.
C claims to that all basic rules are contained in the core rules section.
The core rules section only goes to page 59 while the USR start at page 155.
That leaves almost a hundred pages unaccounted for.
2. All Special Rules or USR's are located in the Special rules section of the BRB.
a. The first page of the special rules section notates it presents ALL special rules.
b. This does state that the list is not exhaustive and that other special rules can be found in other documents, codex, datasheets.
c. I would assert that all special rules located within the BRB are indeed located in that section.
d. Datasheet point 10. Will state that all special rules located in a Codex will be found on the Army List Entry or Appendix for the codex, or located in the special rules section of the BRB.
d2. The above correlates what the BRB already states.
A is false, as you yourself state in B.
If the list is not exhaustive, then the USR section can't possibly contain all the special rules.
Not sure what you mean by datasheet point 10, but if you're referring to the snippet in "basic versus advanced", then that's not at all what it says.
It's telling you that the army list entry lists what advanced rules apply to the unit, not where they are or what they do.
Also if A is true, then codices can't contain a single special rule since they are all in the USR section.
3. All advanced rules are contained within codex's.
a. If you check the physical BRB for advanced rules it only provides you page 13. which is the Basic Vs Advanced box.
b. Basic vs advanced tells us "The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex."
c. Basic vs advanced also tells us "Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules."
d. The only rules that pertain to SPECIFIC models are located in Codex's. Such as giving a model in a unit a relic, or giving a sargeant melta bombs, or a plasma pistol.
If you feel that any of these are incorrect, or that I have missed something that contradicts these assertions, feel free to point them out.
B and C are a quotes from the BRB, what's your point here exactly?
If your saying that advanced rules can only exist to override basic rules, that's not what that quote is saying.
It says that, in the case of a an advanced rule conflicting with a basic rule, the advanced rule takes precedence, no more , no less.
As for D, what about any of the universal special rules that only affect the model possessing said special rule. That's several pages worth of rules in the BRB right there.
1.Can a rule be a basic rule and an advance rule, simultaneously?
Nope. Basic rule applies to all models (generic movement, generic shooting, generic assault, generic morale, infantry rules)
Advanced rules apply to specific models (specific model movement, specific model shooting, specific model assault, specific model rules for unit type)
Ceann wrote: 2. Why cannot a unit type, be to a unit profile, what wargear is, to a weapon profile. A combination of basic and advanced rules?
Any given statement might contain a mix of basic and advanced rules but no one rule is a combination of a basic rule and an advanced rule. Don't confuse a statement with a rule which is a component of a statement.
Ceann wrote: 3. Does an Iron Halo have basic rules, or advanced rules?
Does a psyocculum have basic rules, or advanced rules?
Those have advanced rules. It's easy to tell. Just ask yourself do all wargear grant 4++ invul saves? No. Then it has an advanced rule. Same with psyocculum.
Ceann wrote: 4.
How do we determine which rules it carries?
- The rules for basic vs advanced only tell us about rules that apply to models and u
The rules for advanced rules cover models equipped with specific wargear such as a boltgun. So advanced rules cover the case of models equipped with iron halos or psyocculum.
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Spoiler:
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
Happyjew wrote: Ceann, where in the "Core Rules" section, do the rules talk about how Calvary moves, and how far?
BRB Page 18.
Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71).
A Chariot will move normally for a vehicle of their type.
Who said anything about chariots? I want a specific quote from the Core Rules section that tells me how far a cavalry model can move. Don't give me a quote saying it's on another page. That does not tell me how far Cavalry can move. You said it is a basic rule, and ALL basic rules are found in the Core Rules section.
1.
B and C contradict themselves.
B claims that all rules other than the universal special rules are basic rules.
C claims to that all basic rules are contained in the core rules section.
The core rules section only goes to page 59 while the USR start at page 155.
That leaves almost a hundred pages unaccounted for.
Is a lasgun a basic rule or an advanced rule?
It is neither, it USES basic rules or advanced rules.
Is Unit Type a basic rule, or an advanced rule?
It is neither, it USES basic rules or advanced rules.
The "hundred unaccounted for pages" are references for Unit Types. Which all use the basic rules found in core rules.
Just like the Weaponry section is a reference for weapons.
2.
A is false, as you yourself state in B.
If the list is not exhaustive, then the USR section can't possibly contain all the special rules.
Not sure what you mean by datasheet point 10, but if you're referring to the snippet in "basic versus advanced", then that's not at all what it says.
It's telling you that the army list entry lists what advanced rules apply to the unit, not where they are or what they do.
Also if A is true, then codices can't contain a single special rule since they are all in the USR section.
A is true. ??? I am quoting what the BRB STATES
B is also true. ??? I am quoting what the BRB STATES
C. is true.
D. is true.
I said it contains all special rules LOCATED IN THE BRB.
You say you don't know what datasheet point is, if you open any codex and look at the descriptor page for what sections of a data sheet pertain too, you will find that the special rules section of any data sheet will tell you where to find special rules. It agrees with the same terms located in the first page of the Special Rules section. We have the BRB itself and Codex telling us that any rules located in the BRB are located in the Special rules section. Any other special rules, such as Chapter Tactics, or Canticles, will be found in their own Codex, which they are. You need to finish reading the sentence, the sentence doesn't end on the word exhaustive.
The only special rules that exist are noted in their codex, or in the Special Rules section of the BRB. Nowhere else.
3.
B and C are a quotes from the BRB, what's your point here exactly?
If your saying that advanced rules can only exist to override basic rules, that's not what that quote is saying.
It says that, in the case of a an advanced rule conflicting with a basic rule, the advanced rule takes precedence, no more , no less.
As for D, what about any of the universal special rules that only affect the model possessing said special rule. That's several pages worth of rules in the BRB right there.
Are you saying that advanced rules are all special rules?
If you are, then all special rules are located in the special rules section of the BRB, thereby with the process of elimination, there are no advanced rules in the BRB.
Are advanced rules and special rules the same thing or something different?
Happyjew wrote: Ceann, where in the "Core Rules" section, do the rules talk about how Calvary moves, and how far?
BRB Page 18.
Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71).
A Chariot will move normally for a vehicle of their type.
Who said anything about chariots? I want a specific quote from the Core Rules section that tells me how far a cavalry model can move. Don't give me a quote saying it's on another page. That does not tell me how far Cavalry can move. You said it is a basic rule, and ALL basic rules are found in the Core Rules section.
Oh sure. Sorry I thought you said Chariot, not Calvary.
Page 18 BRB.
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to
their maximum movement distance.
For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by
far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to
their maximum movement distance.
Is the Calvary page located in the Core Rules section?
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
Happyjew wrote: Ceann, where in the "Core Rules" section, do the rules talk about how Calvary moves, and how far?
BRB Page 18.
Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71).
A Chariot will move normally for a vehicle of their type.
Who said anything about chariots? I want a specific quote from the Core Rules section that tells me how far a cavalry model can move. Don't give me a quote saying it's on another page. That does not tell me how far Cavalry can move. You said it is a basic rule, and ALL basic rules are found in the Core Rules section.
Oh sure. Sorry I thought you said Chariot, not Calvary.
Page 18 BRB.
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to
their maximum movement distance.
OK and where in the Core Rules does it state what that maximum movement is?
Ceann wrote: There is no maximum movement.
It states that for now they will explain how infantry work, being the most common unit you and the rest later.
Cool. So the Cavalry rules for movement are advanced rules then. They aren't in the Core Rules section.
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
Is the Calvary page located in the Core Rules section?
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
All unit type pages are located in the unit types section. Starting with infantry.
1.
B and C contradict themselves.
B claims that all rules other than the universal special rules are basic rules.
C claims to that all basic rules are contained in the core rules section.
The core rules section only goes to page 59 while the USR start at page 155.
That leaves almost a hundred pages unaccounted for.
Is a lasgun a basic rule or an advanced rule?
It is neither, it USES basic rules or advanced rules.
Is Unit Type a basic rule, or an advanced rule?
It is neither, it USES basic rules or advanced rules.
The "hundred unaccounted for pages" are references for Unit Types. Which all use the basic rules found in core rules.
Just like the Weaponry section is a reference for weapons.
I was showing you how your your section division doesn't add up, what does that have to do with a lasgun?
What you just said still doesn't add up though. You said that all sections outside of the special rules section ARE basic rules, not that they use them. That's a difference.
Now you're saying they USE them. Moreover, what about all the other sections? Battlefield terrain, preparing for battle, etc? Those are also still unaccounted for.
[
Spoiler:
2.
A is false, as you yourself state in B.
If the list is not exhaustive, then the USR section can't possibly contain all the special rules.
Not sure what you mean by datasheet point 10, but if you're referring to the snippet in "basic versus advanced", then that's not at all what it says.
It's telling you that the army list entry lists what advanced rules apply to the unit, not where they are or what they do.
Also if A is true, then codices can't contain a single special rule since they are all in the USR section.
A is true. ??? I am quoting what the BRB STATES
B is also true. ??? I am quoting what the BRB STATES
C. is true.
D. is true.
I said it contains all special rules LOCATED IN THE BRB.
You say you don't know what datasheet point is, if you open any codex and look at the descriptor page for what sections of a data sheet pertain too, you will find that the special rules section of any data sheet will tell you where to find special rules. It agrees with the same terms located in the first page of the Special Rules section. We have the BRB itself and Codex telling us that any rules located in the BRB are located in the Special rules section. Any other special rules, such as Chapter Tactics, or Canticles, will be found in their own Codex, which they are. You need to finish reading the sentence, the sentence doesn't end on the word exhaustive.
The only special rules that exist are noted in their codex, or in the Special Rules section of the BRB. Nowhere else.
No. You state that the special rules section contains all the special rules while simultaneously not containing all the rules, that's impossible.
A non exhaustive list is a list containing a subset of items and as such cannot contain all items, in this case special rules.
Give me a page number in the BRB for this datasheet point 10. I can't find it.
Spoiler:
3.
B and C are a quotes from the BRB, what's your point here exactly?
If your saying that advanced rules can only exist to override basic rules, that's not what that quote is saying.
It says that, in the case of a an advanced rule conflicting with a basic rule, the advanced rule takes precedence, no more , no less.
As for D, what about any of the universal special rules that only affect the model possessing said special rule. That's several pages worth of rules in the BRB right there.
Are you saying that advanced rules are all special rules?
If you are, then all special rules are located in the special rules section of the BRB, thereby with the process of elimination, there are no advanced rules in the BRB.
Are advanced rules and special rules the same thing or something different?
You're the one saying that all advanced rules are completely contained within the special rules section.
You said earlier that everything that isn't a special rule is a basic rule.
And since everything else is a basic rule, that leaves the special rules as the only candidate for being an advanced rule.
Unless of course you are arguing that there isn't a single advanced rule in the BRB, in which case I wonder what you think a special rule is.
Ceann wrote: There is no maximum movement.
It states that for now they will explain how infantry work, being the most common unit you and the rest later.
Cool. So the Cavalry rules for movement are advanced rules then. They aren't in the Core Rules section.
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
Is a lasguns a basic rule or an advanced rule?
It is neither, it is a profile you use to make a shooting attack.
Is a unit type a basic rule or an advanced rule?
It is neither it is a profile you use for units.
Ceann wrote: There is no maximum movement.
It states that for now they will explain how infantry work, being the most common unit to you now and the rest later.
You're avoiding answering the question.
Happyjew asked you, "Where in the 'Core Rules' section, do the rules talk about how Calvary moves, and how far?"
The 'Core Rules' tells us, as you yourself quoted, that it will "just explain how squads of Infantry move".
Infantry are not Cavalry.
Further, "up to their maximum movement distance" doesn't actually tell us how far, so that is not an answer to the question.
The rules for Cavalry movement aren't found in the Core Rules section.
Cavalry rules aren't found at all in the Core Rules section, because the rules for Cavalry are not basic rules, and the same applies for other unit types, which are found in the Unit Types section.
All unit type pages are located in the unit types section. Starting with infantry.
Cool. So again the Unit Types section is all advanced rules, as you admit.
Infantry, in the Unit Types section, is specifically mentioned as being contained in the Core Rules section, so you go there for the Infantry rules (which are basic rules btw).
Spoiler:
Infantry are the most common and dependable units in Warhammer 40,000. As the bulk of the rules are concerned with them, there are no additional rules to present here.
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
Ceann wrote: There is no maximum movement.
It states that for now they will explain how infantry work, being the most common unit to you now and the rest later.
So then the rules for how far Cavalry move is not in the Core Rules?
3. Because they are stated to in several areas, including in the definition of Advanced Rules. Why do you ignore these statements, besides the fact that they do not agree with your paradigm?
Disagree, I have quoted for you before, and the deadtree version has the page numbers, telling you where to find the movement rules for non-infantry types. The first page of the movement section explicitly explains it will be only discussing infantry now and will discuss the others later.
There are many times throughout the core rules section that specifically references the other unit types and that they will be discussed layer. You ignore all of these out of hand in favor of "6". You are doing, the very thing, you are accusing me of doing.
So it references another section. That doesn't necessarily make it part of the basic rules when everything else is calling them advanced rules.
The Infantry section also states that it follows the basic rules. Before that the advanced rules definition specifically calls out anything that diverges it from an Infantry model as being an advanced rule. If the unit type of the model changes, it is changed to an advanced ruleset.
4.Error. The statement, "Models move up to 6" in the Movement Phase" can be found in Movement Distance in the Movement Phase rules. No instructions can be found in the Movement Distance to refer to the Unit Type to find a model's movement range.
Disagree, same as 3. I will quote, please compare them.
THE MOVEMENT PHASE
"""For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section pg (61-71)."""
This statement takes place, FIRST THING, before Movement Distance is even mentioned.
"""So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game. However, whilst the definition of
Infantry is incredibly broad it’s not enough to capture the full variety, scope and splendor of a war-torn galaxy teeming with all manner of alien beasts. In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model falls into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile, you’ll be able to find that information in the relevant codex or Army List Entry."""
Notice some relevant words here " For the time being, So far, as pertains to infantry, incredibly broad its not enough, extension of the characteristic profile.
Nothing on the section you referenced ever states anything about Distance, just method. The page we are referencing is talking about distance. You want to know the difference between method and distance, look up the difference between Cavalry and Jet Pack and ignore the USRs.
And before all that advanced rules states that anything that diverges from the Infantry rules makes it an advanced rule.
5. No, you are changing the location of a statement here. The Unit Type section never indicates this as a general rule for Unit Types. The Movement Phase does state that different unit types move in different ways, but it never tells us how, much less tell us to refer to them for their Movement Distance.
Not sure what you mean, the statement I have quoted for the movement phase, is on the very first page of the movement phase, it exists even PRIOR to movement distance. We are told that they are going to explain the rules to us, using infantry.
Because you are putting authority on a reference instead of a definition. Which defines Unit Type movement, the Unit Type section or the Movement Phase section?
6. Except the definition of Advance Rules states otherwise. The introduction to Unit Types states otherwise. The only thing that is saying this is you.
I can tell you up down and sideways what the Advanced Rules state. They DO NOT state, consult the Unit Types section, pull out a rubber stamp called "Advanced Rules" and put it on every page.
It does indirectly, but nor does it need to. The specific statement you continue to ignore is, "Advanced rules apply to specific types of models... because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)." That's all part of the same sentence, I just truncated out the part that didn't deal with unit types.
If you see a model and its datasheet does not say, "Infantry", does it meet the requirements of the quoted sentence of Advanced rules?
Ceann wrote: 1.Can a rule be a basic rule and an advance rule, simultaneously?
No. The Infantry type is noted as not being an advanced rule as it follows all the basic rules.
Ceann wrote: 2. Why cannot a unit type, be to a unit profile, what wargear is, to a weapon profile. A combination of basic and advanced rules?
Because a unit type is a rule group that provides a collection of special rules for easy reference, it is not noted as being equipment or a physical object. It also does not help that Wargear can change a unit type, such as a Space Marine Bike.
What tells you that a unit type is like Wargear?
Ceann wrote: 3. Does an Iron Halo have basic rules, or advanced rules?
Codex rules. These are rules that are presented exclusively provided by the codex.
Ceann wrote: 4. Does a psyocculum have basic rules, or advanced rules?
Codex rules. These are rules that are presented exclusively provided by the codex.
Ceann wrote: 5. How do we determine which rules it carries?
- The rules for basic vs advanced only tell us about rules that apply to models and units.
As explained in Basic vs Advanced, the basic rules are those rules that cover Movement, Shooting, Morale, and Assault that normally affect all models, or as advanced rules states, anything a basic Infantry model would follow.
Advanced rules are those rules which make a model different from a basic Infantry model, just like the sentence states.
Special Rules are those abilities which change the main rules of the game. The main rules of the game are largely those an Infantry model would be following.
It is neither, it is a profile you use to make a shooting attack.
Specific models equipped with lasguns are an advanced rule. Not all models are equipped with lasguns.
Ceann wrote: Is a unit type a basic rule or an advanced rule?
It is neither it is a profile you use for units.
Unit type is not a profile. How are you arriving at that conclusion? There is no rule to suggest that.
Infantry is a basic rule. Once you start dealing with specific Unit Types other than Infantry you have left the Core Rules section and therefore you are dealing with advanced rules.
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
It is neither, it is a profile you use to make a shooting attack.
Specific models equipped with lasguns are an advanced rule. Not all models are equipped with lasguns.
Ceann wrote: Is a unit type a basic rule or an advanced rule?
It is neither it is a profile you use for units.
Unit type is not a profile. How are you arriving at that conclusion? There is no rule to suggest that.
Infantry is a basic rule. Once you start dealing with specific Unit Types other than Infantry you have left the Core Rules section and therefore you are dealing with advanced rules.
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
Wrong col. The first page of the movement phase tells you that they are going to start explaining with infantry because they are most common, not because they are the standard.
Your beloved unit type page for infantry is located in the unit types section along with all the others.
Wrong col. The first page of the movement phase tells you that they are going to start explaining with infantry because they are most common, not because they are the standard.
Your beloved unit type page for infantry is located in the unit types section along with all the others.
I guess you missed these parts.
So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game.
As the bulk of the rules are concerned with them, there are no additional rules to present here.
So plainly stated rules contradict your argument.
Your argument then is wholly invalidated.
Are you ready to concede?
The only thing you have successfully presented is that your argument is entirely against the rules and belongs in the Proposed Rules forum.
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
Ceann wrote: Is a storm bolter a basic rule or an advanced rule col?
When a model is equipped with a storm bolter it's an advanced rule. Not all models are equipped with storm bolters.
Spoiler:
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Ceann wrote: And basic infantry have no baked in special rules. That is what it is talking about.
Not that calvary moves 12".
But that they have Fleet.
A vehicle or a bike, not because of how they move, but because the unit has relentless.
They are referencing the BAKED IN special rules on the unit types, not movement, assaulting, shooting, etc.
Having a model be a bike unit type is advanced rules.
What does Infantry state?
It follows all basic rules, with nothing additional noted for it.
What does being a Bike entail that separates it from Infantry?
Armoured Steed.
Movement.
2 sets of rules regarding interaction with Terrain, depending on the type of Bike.
Fall Back Moves.
Shooting.
Turbo-Boost.
And all that is not including the USRs of Hammer of Wrath, Jink, Relentless, and Very Bulky, or the Eldar Jet Bike rules. I'll not bother with the USRs, from here on out.
What does Cavalry List?
Movement.
Fall Back Moves.
What does Beast List?
Movement.
Fall Back Moves.
What does Jet Pack List?
Skyborne.
Thrust Move.
What does Character list?
2 Look Out, Sir rules.
Challenges.
What does the Vehicle list?
Characteristics.
Measuring Distances.
Movement Phase.
Psychic Phase.
Shooting Phase.
Line of Sight for Weapons.
Shooting and Assaulting a Vehicle which includes the Damage Table.
Obscured Vehicles, which addresses Cover Saves.
Squadrons.
And that's not going in to the numerous sub-types.
Ceann wrote: because storm bolter along with Las gun and Las cannon are found in the shooting phase section of the BRB.
So that makes them basic rules right?
Nope. What would make them basic rules is if all models were equipped with them.
Spoiler:
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The Core Rules section contains ALL the basic rules. But not all rules in the Core Rules section have to be basic rules.
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
Ceann wrote: And basic infantry have no baked in special rules. That is what it is talking about.
Not that calvary moves 12".
But that they have Fleet.
A vehicle or a bike, not because of how they move, but because the unit has relentless.
They are referencing the BAKED IN special rules on the unit types, not movement, assaulting, shooting, etc.
Having a model be a bike unit type is advanced rules.
What does Infantry state?
It follows all basic rules, with nothing additional noted for it.
What does being a Bike entail that separates it from Infantry?
Armoured Steed.
Movement.
2 sets of rules regarding interaction with Terrain, depending on the type of Bike.
Fall Back Moves.
Shooting.
Turbo-Boost.
And all that is not including the USRs of Hammer of Wrath, Jink, Relentless, and Very Bulky, or the Eldar Jet Bike rules. I'll not bother with the USRs, from here on out.
What does Cavalry List?
Movement.
Fall Back Moves.
What does Beast List?
Movement.
Fall Back Moves.
What does Jet Pack List?
Skyborne.
Thrust Move.
What does Character list?
2 Look Out, Sir rules.
Challenges.
What does the Vehicle list?
Characteristics.
Measuring Distances.
Movement Phase.
Psychic Phase.
Shooting Phase.
Line of Sight for Weapons.
Shooting and Assaulting a Vehicle which includes the Damage Table.
Obscured Vehicles, which addresses Cover Saves.
Squadrons.
And that's not going in to the numerous sub-types.
Need I go on?
Anything you have quoted, that is an action taken by a player, in the movement, shooting, assault, etc phases are a basic rule for that unit type for that phase. A thrust move is used when you would move. What does the first page of the movement phase say? They can move to their maximum value.
Are they moving? Yes. To their max value? Yes.
Then you are following the basic rules. What basic rule of the process of movement is being broken by a thrust move?
Ceann, could you please answer this straightforward question?
Am I right in thinking your reason for believing unit type rules are basic rules is, at least in part (or in large part, or even entirely?) because of references to unit types being found within the Core Rules section, for example from 'Other Important Information':
"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section."
Mr. Shine wrote: Ceann, could you please answer this straightforward question?
Am I right in thinking your reason for believing unit type rules are basic rules is, at least in part (or in large part, or even entirely?) because of references to unit types being found within the Core Rules section, for example from 'Other Important Information':
"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section."
There are other such statements, that is one of them.
Ceann wrote: There are other such statements, that is one of them.
Why then don't you believe having an additional save of some kind, carrying one or more shooting or Melee weapons or having one or more special rules are basic rules?
6" Movement is the Basic Rule in the Movement Phase for Unit Type Infantry:
All Unit Type Infantry have a maximum move of 6" barring any Advanced Rule that allows them to move more.
12" Movement is the Basic Rule for Unit Type Jump Infantry:
All Unit Type Jump Infantry have a maximum movement of 12" barring any Advanced Rule that allows them to move more.
This is across ALL Unit Types and a prime example of that is Logan Grimnar riding Stormrider, albeit not with the Movement phase, but in the Shooting phase and Assault phase.
Here we see that Stormrider has Unit Type Vehicle (Chariot, Open-topped). That means that it follows all the Basic Rules for Unit Type Vehicle (Chariot, Open-topped) for the Movement Phase, Shooting Phase, and Assault Phase. However then we have the entry for Stormrider;
Now wait a minute, Unit Type Vehicle (Chariot, Open-topped) Basic Rules do not allow their riders to make 4 additional Rending Strength 5 AP- Attacks in each Assault phase?!?!? And Unit Type Vehicle (Chariot, Open-topped) Basic Rules do not allow for a 4+ invulnerable or make all penetrating hits glancing?!?!? Oooohhh, that is because they are Advanced Rules that applies to this specific type of model aka Stormrider aka a non-infantry model.
You can run the same exact breakdown above of the Basic versus Advanced with Sammael from Codex Dark Angels, another non-infantry model or just about any model that fits the criteria set forth on page 13 Basic versus Advanced call-out box.
Now anticipating that there will be those of you saying that those are Special Rules, not so fast. Unit Type Vehicle (Chariot, Open-topped) have their Special Rules specifically spelled out in their entries, Jink and Hammer of Wrath, as do all the Unit Type entries.
Stormrider:
Uses Basic Rules and Special Rules that apply to all Unit Type Vehicle (Chariot, Open-topped). Uses Advanced Rules specific to model, Stormrider.
Ceann wrote: There are other such statements, that is one of them.
Why then don't you believe having an additional save of some kind, carrying one or more shooting or Melee weapons or having one or more special rules are basic rules?
Special rules CANNOT be basic rules.
Special rules BREAK the rules.
Fleet allows you to move differently, regardless of the unit type.
Relentless allows you to shoot differently, regardless of the unit type.
Hammer of Wrath allows you to make additional attacks, regardless of the unit type.
Page 8 of the BRB.
WARGEAR is given permission to modify characteristics.
The rules for the shooting section have rules for multiple weapons.
Under "Select a Weapon"
If a model can shoot with more than one weapon in the same phase and it is equipped with two or more identically named weapons, it shoots with all the same named weapons when that weapon is selected..
Special Rules are special rules and are ALWAYS identified as special rules.
Each unit type has a section dedicated to what special rules apply to that unit type.
Ceann wrote: Special rules CANNOT be basic rules.
Special rules BREAK the rules.
Fleet allows you to move differently, regardless of the unit type.
Relentless allows you to shoot differently, regardless of the unit type.
Hammer of Wrath allows you to make additional attacks, regardless of the unit type.
Page 8 of the BRB.
WARGEAR is given permission to modify characteristics.
The rules for the shooting section have rules for multiple weapons.
Under "Select a Weapon"
If a model can shoot with more than one weapon in the same phase and it is equipped with two or more identically named weapons, it shoots with all the same named weapons when that weapon is selected..
Special Rules are special rules and are ALWAYS identified as special rules.
Each unit type has a section dedicated to what special rules apply to that unit type.
Being told that wargear can modify characteristics isn't the same as a specific piece of wargear acting in a certain way being somehow a basic rule.
Phrased as you asked earlier, is an Iron Halo a basic or an advanced rule?
Didn't you agree earlier with Charistoph that having a storm bolter is an advanced rule? Please, be consistent.
6" Movement is the Basic Rule in the Movement Phase for Unit Type Infantry:
All Unit Type Infantry have a maximum move of 6" barring any Advanced Rule that allows them to move more.
12" Movement is the Basic Rule for Unit Type Jump Infantry:
All Unit Type Jump Infantry have a maximum movement of 12" barring any Advanced Rule that allows them to move more.
The only place we find basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Spoiler:
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
So the 12" movement that Jump Infantry have is an advanced rule.
In fact, all of the rules associated with any Unit Type that is not basic infantry are advanced rules.
When are you guys going to start adhering to plainly stated rules???
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
Ceann wrote: Special rules CANNOT be basic rules.
Special rules BREAK the rules.
Fleet allows you to move differently, regardless of the unit type.
Relentless allows you to shoot differently, regardless of the unit type.
Hammer of Wrath allows you to make additional attacks, regardless of the unit type.
Page 8 of the BRB.
WARGEAR is given permission to modify characteristics.
The rules for the shooting section have rules for multiple weapons.
Under "Select a Weapon"
If a model can shoot with more than one weapon in the same phase and it is equipped with two or more identically named weapons, it shoots with all the same named weapons when that weapon is selected..
Special Rules are special rules and are ALWAYS identified as special rules.
Each unit type has a section dedicated to what special rules apply to that unit type.
Being told that wargear can modify characteristics isn't the same as a specific piece of wargear acting in a certain way being somehow a basic rule.
Phrased as you asked earlier, is an Iron Halo a basic or an advanced rule?
Didn't you agree earlier with Charistoph that having a storm bolter is an advanced rule? Please, be consistent.
Sure, let me clarify for you.
An Iron Halo, modifys your save, which it is permitted to do.
An Iron Halo, is not a basic rule or an advanced rule, it is a piece of wargear, using the basic rule to modify stats.
What he said about the storm bolter was that it was NEITHER a basic rule, nor an advanced rule. Which I agreed with.
He stated that wargear has basic or advanced rules attached TO them. They themselves are not basic or advanced rules.
An example would be a Lasgun vs a Meltagun.
The Lasgun is only using basic rules.
The Meltagun has the Melta special rule.
Neither gun on its own is a basic or advanced rule, they have those added on to them based on their profile.
They both roll to hit against a vehicle the same, BUT when you go to roll to penetrate, this "Meltagun" gets an extra die roll. What gives?
It has the advanced rule Melta, breaking the rules to penetrate.
The Unit Type Infantry has no special rules attached to it.
The Unit Type Calvary has the Fleet special rule attached to it.
Both of those units use the same basic rules that dictate how they can move.
Both use the same basic rules that dictate how they shoot. etc etc.
A weapons profile determine what basic or advanced rules it is using.
Just like a Unit Types profile determines what basic or advanced rules it is using.
Per Basic vs Advanced """Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale."""
The basic rules tell you HOW to move, shoot, assault etc, not tell you what VALUES to use while doing so. The Unit Types tell you the values, just like weaponry tell you the profiles to use when "Choosing a Weapon".
Brother Ramses has done a better job of illustrating the point than have.
6" Movement is the Basic Rule in the Movement Phase for Unit Type Infantry:
All Unit Type Infantry have a maximum move of 6" barring any Advanced Rule that allows them to move more.
12" Movement is the Basic Rule for Unit Type Jump Infantry:
All Unit Type Jump Infantry have a maximum movement of 12" barring any Advanced Rule that allows them to move more.
The only place we find basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Spoiler:
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
So the 12" movement that Jump Infantry have is an advanced rule.
In fact, all of the rules associated with any Unit Type that is not basic infantry are advanced rules.
When are you guys going to start adhering to plainly stated rules???
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
Typical col_impact response that does not even encompass the entire post or examples given. Let me see you supply your rationale to Stormrider.
An Iron Halo, modifys your save, which it is permitted to do.
An Iron Halo, is not a basic rule or an advanced rule, it is a piece of wargear, using the basic rule to modify stats.
What he said about the storm bolter was that it was NEITHER a basic rule, nor an advanced rule. Which I agreed with.
He stated that wargear has basic or advanced rules attached TO them. They themselves are not basic or advanced rules.
An example would be a Lasgun vs a Meltagun.
The Lasgun is only using basic rules.
The Meltagun has the Melta special rule.
Neither gun on its own is a basic or advanced rule, they have those added on to them based on their profile.
They both roll to hit against a vehicle the same, BUT when you go to roll to penetrate, this "Meltagun" gets an extra die roll. What gives?
It has the advanced rule Melta, breaking the rules to penetrate.
The Unit Type Infantry has no special rules attached to it.
The Unit Type Calvary has the Fleet special rule attached to it.
Both of those units use the same basic rules that dictate how they can move.
Both use the same basic rules that dictate how they shoot. etc etc.
A weapons profile determine what basic or advanced rules it is using.
Just like a Unit Types profile determines what basic or advanced rules it is using.
Per Basic vs Advanced """Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale."""
The basic rules tell you HOW to move, shoot, assault etc, not tell you what VALUES to use while doing so. The Unit Types tell you the values, just like weaponry tell you the profiles to use when "Choosing a Weapon".
Brother Ramses has done a better job of illustrating the point than have.
Not all models are equipped with wargear or weapons. Any equipped wargear or weapon at all is an advanced rule.
Basic rules are rules that all models have. A model that does not have a unit type at all specified has the basic rules for Infantry automatically applied since the basic rules for Infantry apply to all models.
Spoiler:
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Typical col_impact response that does not even encompass the entire post or examples given. Let me see you supply your rationale to Stormrider.
You didn't have an argument of merit with regards to Stormrider. The Codex provided additional Codex special rules for Stormrider. Remember, all Codex rules are advanced rules too.
I think you should really really focus in and read this rule as you seem to be totally oblivious to it.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
Brother Ramses, the above rule totally invalidates your argument. Care to comment?
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
An Iron Halo, modifys your save, which it is permitted to do.
An Iron Halo, is not a basic rule or an advanced rule, it is a piece of wargear, using the basic rule to modify stats.
What he said about the storm bolter was that it was NEITHER a basic rule, nor an advanced rule. Which I agreed with.
He stated that wargear has basic or advanced rules attached TO them. They themselves are not basic or advanced rules.
An example would be a Lasgun vs a Meltagun.
The Lasgun is only using basic rules.
The Meltagun has the Melta special rule.
Neither gun on its own is a basic or advanced rule, they have those added on to them based on their profile.
They both roll to hit against a vehicle the same, BUT when you go to roll to penetrate, this "Meltagun" gets an extra die roll. What gives?
It has the advanced rule Melta, breaking the rules to penetrate.
The Unit Type Infantry has no special rules attached to it.
The Unit Type Calvary has the Fleet special rule attached to it.
Both of those units use the same basic rules that dictate how they can move.
Both use the same basic rules that dictate how they shoot. etc etc.
A weapons profile determine what basic or advanced rules it is using.
Just like a Unit Types profile determines what basic or advanced rules it is using.
Per Basic vs Advanced """Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale."""
The basic rules tell you HOW to move, shoot, assault etc, not tell you what VALUES to use while doing so. The Unit Types tell you the values, just like weaponry tell you the profiles to use when "Choosing a Weapon".
Brother Ramses has done a better job of illustrating the point than have.
Not all models are equipped with wargear or weapons. Any equipped wargear or weapon at all is an advanced rule.
Basic rules are rules that all models have. A model that does not have a unit type at all specified has the basic rules for Infantry automatically applied since the basic rules for Infantry apply to all models.
Spoiler:
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Typical col_impact response that does not even encompass the entire post or examples given. Let me see you supply your rationale to Stormrider.
You didn't have an argument of merit with regards to Stormrider. The Codex provided additional Codex special rules for Stormrider. Remember, all Codex rules are advanced rules too.
So on Logan Grimnar's profile has him listed as Unit Type Infantry, that is an Advanced Rule? But you have been arguing this entire time that Unit Type Infantry is a Basic Rule and all other Unit Types are Advanced.
My example clarifies completely how the Basic versus Advanced works out per the RAW where even your retort above is just another RAI assumption.
An Iron Halo, modifys your save, which it is permitted to do.
An Iron Halo, is not a basic rule or an advanced rule, it is a piece of wargear, using the basic rule to modify stats.
What he said about the storm bolter was that it was NEITHER a basic rule, nor an advanced rule. Which I agreed with.
He stated that wargear has basic or advanced rules attached TO them. They themselves are not basic or advanced rules.
An example would be a Lasgun vs a Meltagun.
The Lasgun is only using basic rules.
The Meltagun has the Melta special rule.
Neither gun on its own is a basic or advanced rule, they have those added on to them based on their profile.
They both roll to hit against a vehicle the same, BUT when you go to roll to penetrate, this "Meltagun" gets an extra die roll. What gives?
It has the advanced rule Melta, breaking the rules to penetrate.
The Unit Type Infantry has no special rules attached to it.
The Unit Type Calvary has the Fleet special rule attached to it.
Both of those units use the same basic rules that dictate how they can move.
Both use the same basic rules that dictate how they shoot. etc etc.
A weapons profile determine what basic or advanced rules it is using.
Just like a Unit Types profile determines what basic or advanced rules it is using.
Per Basic vs Advanced """Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale."""
The basic rules tell you HOW to move, shoot, assault etc, not tell you what VALUES to use while doing so. The Unit Types tell you the values, just like weaponry tell you the profiles to use when "Choosing a Weapon".
Brother Ramses has done a better job of illustrating the point than have.
Not all models are equipped with wargear or weapons. Any equipped wargear or weapon at all is an advanced rule.
Basic rules are rules that all models have. A model that does not have a unit type at all specified has the basic rules for Infantry automatically applied since the basic rules for Infantry apply to all models.
Spoiler:
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Typical col_impact response that does not even encompass the entire post or examples given. Let me see you supply your rationale to Stormrider.
You didn't have an argument of merit with regards to Stormrider. The Codex provided additional Codex special rules for Stormrider. Remember, all Codex rules are advanced rules too.
Dismiss, dismiss, dismiss.
That is all you do, dismiss everything.
Wargear are not basic or advanced rules. They are profiles.
In the shooting phase you CHOOSE A WEAPON.
That tells you what profile you are using to shoot.
The PROFILE has basic or advanced rules, based on what the profile states.
The weapon itself is not a basic or advanced rule.
A Unit Type is just that, a type of unit. Your silly argument falls flat on its face by the fact that the location of the Unit Type for Infantry is located on the first page of Unit Types.
Unit Types are the profiles that tell you the values different unit types use when performing the actions of movement, shooting, assault.
Just like a weapons profile tells you the values that weapon uses to shoot.
Neither of these tell you HOW to move or HOW to shoot. That is done in the core rules section, where the basic rules are.
These are the values you use when performing those basic rules.
So on Logan Grimnar's profile has him listed as Unit Type Infantry, that is an Advanced Rule? But you have been arguing this entire time that Unit Type Infantry is a Basic Rule and all other Unit Types are Advanced.
My example clarifies completely how the Basic versus Advanced works out per the RAW where even your retort above is just another RAI assumption.
All models have the infantry basic rules. If Logan is on a chariot then he has advanced chariot rules. If Logan is on Stormrider (which is a chariot) then he has additional Codex special rules (which are advanced rules) for Stormrider.
This is all very simple and supported by the rules.
Your argument isn't supported by the rules. See the quote below.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
Per your definition, the Unit Type Infantry is found on the first page of the Unit Type section.
That would make all rules associated to the Unit Type Infantry "advanced rules" which is not correct.
Show me the page that says "All models have basic infantry moves".
So on Logan Grimnar's profile has him listed as Unit Type Infantry, that is an Advanced Rule? But you have been arguing this entire time that Unit Type Infantry is a Basic Rule and all other Unit Types are Advanced.
My example clarifies completely how the Basic versus Advanced works out per the RAW where even your retort above is just another RAI assumption.
All models have the infantry basic rules. If Logan is on a chariot then he has advanced chariot rules. If Logan is on Stormrider (which is a chariot) then he has additional Codex special rules (which are advanced rules) for Stormrider.
This is all very simple and supported by the rules.
Your argument isn't supported by the rules. See the quote below.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
This does support my argument by the rules.
All rules governing the actions of movement, shooting, assault and morale are located in the Core Rules section.
The Unit Types section introduces no new rules. It has values that are used by the Core Rules.
The Weaponry section also introduces no new rules. It has values that are used by the Core Rules, namely weapon profiles.
Each of those sections has special rules, which are identifed as special rules that are attached to those profiles.
All basic rules are still in the Core Rules Section.
All special rules are still sourced from the Special Rules section.
Dismiss, dismiss, dismiss.
That is all you do, dismiss everything.
Wargear are not basic or advanced rules. They are profiles.
In the shooting phase you CHOOSE A WEAPON.
That tells you what profile you are using to shoot.
The PROFILE has basic or advanced rules, based on what the profile states.
The weapon itself is not a basic or advanced rule.
Incorrect. Not all models have wargear. When a specific model has a certain wargear such as a weapon or an iron halo it is an advanced rule.
Spoiler:
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
A Unit Type is just that, a type of unit. Your silly argument falls flat on its face by the fact that the location of the Unit Type for Infantry is located on the first page of Unit Types.
It has been pointed out numerous times with rules quotes that you are flat out wrong. The infantry rules are basic rules.
So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game.
As the bulk of the rules are concerned with them, there are no additional rules to present here.
Why do you persist in arguing against plainly stated rules?
Ceann wrote: Unit Types are the profiles that tell you the values different unit types use when performing the actions of movement, shooting, assault.
Just like a weapons profile tells you the values that weapon uses to shoot.
Neither of these tell you HOW to move or HOW to shoot. That is done in the core rules section, where the basic rules are.
These are the values you use when performing those basic rules.
Unit type is not a profile. You are making that up.
The Unit Types section is a collection of advanced rules that override the basic infantry rules that all models have.
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
All rules governing the actions of movement, shooting, assault and morale are located in the Core Rules section.
The Unit Types section introduces no new rules. It has values that are used by the Core Rules.
The Weaponry section also introduces no new rules. It has values that are used by the Core Rules, namely weapon profiles.
Each of those sections has special rules, which are identifed as special rules that are attached to those profiles.
All basic rules are still in the Core Rules Section.
All special rules are still sourced from the Special Rules section.
A unit type is not a profile. You have made this up. You are not allowed to make stuff up.
The Unit Types section is literally nothing but new rules. They are all advanced rules by definition. Some of those advanced rules are special rules. None of them are basic rules. All basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
For example, the bike unit type has a number of advanced rules and a number of advanced rules that are special rules
advanced rules which are not special rules
1) ARMOURED STEED - Bike and Jetbike riders benefit from an increase to their Toughness characteristic by 1. If the Bike or Jetbike is part of the model’s standard wargear, this bonus is already included on its profile. In addition, Bikes and Jetbikes cannot Go to Ground, and cannot be Pinned.
2) MOVEMENT - Bikes and Jetbikes can move up to 12" in the Movement phase.
3) BIKES & TERRAIN - Bikes and Jetbikes are not slowed down by difficult terrain (even when charging). However, Bikes treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain instead.
4) FALL BACK MOVES - Bikes and Jetbikes move 3D6" when Falling Back, rather than 2D6".
5) SHOOTING - Each Bike or Jetbike in a unit can fire with one weapon for each rider on the Bike. Thus a Space Marine Attack Bike with a driver and passenger in sidecar can fire two weapons.
6) TURBO-BOOST - Bikes and Jetbikes cannot Run, but can make a special Turbo-boost move instead of firing in their Shooting phase. Turbo-boosting Bikes move up to 12", Turbo-boosting Jetbikes move up to 24". Controlling their Bikes at such speeds takes all the riders’ concentration and skill, however. Bikes and Jetbikes therefore cannot shoot, charge or execute any other voluntary action until the end of their turn after Turbo-boosting.
special rules which are advanced rules
Hammer of Wrath
Jink
Relentless
Very Bulky
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
An Iron Halo, modifys your save, which it is permitted to do.
An Iron Halo, is not a basic rule or an advanced rule, it is a piece of wargear, using the basic rule to modify stats.
What he said about the storm bolter was that it was NEITHER a basic rule, nor an advanced rule. Which I agreed with.
He stated that wargear has basic or advanced rules attached TO them. They themselves are not basic or advanced rules.
An example would be a Lasgun vs a Meltagun.
The Lasgun is only using basic rules.
The Meltagun has the Melta special rule.
Neither gun on its own is a basic or advanced rule, they have those added on to them based on their profile.
They both roll to hit against a vehicle the same, BUT when you go to roll to penetrate, this "Meltagun" gets an extra die roll. What gives?
It has the advanced rule Melta, breaking the rules to penetrate.
The Unit Type Infantry has no special rules attached to it.
The Unit Type Calvary has the Fleet special rule attached to it.
Both of those units use the same basic rules that dictate how they can move.
Both use the same basic rules that dictate how they shoot. etc etc.
A weapons profile determine what basic or advanced rules it is using.
Just like a Unit Types profile determines what basic or advanced rules it is using.
Per Basic vs Advanced """Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale."""
The basic rules tell you HOW to move, shoot, assault etc, not tell you what VALUES to use while doing so. The Unit Types tell you the values, just like weaponry tell you the profiles to use when "Choosing a Weapon".
Brother Ramses has done a better job of illustrating the point than have.
Not all models are equipped with wargear or weapons. Any equipped wargear or weapon at all is an advanced rule.
Basic rules are rules that all models have. A model that does not have a unit type at all specified has the basic rules for Infantry automatically applied since the basic rules for Infantry apply to all models.
Spoiler:
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Typical col_impact response that does not even encompass the entire post or examples given. Let me see you supply your rationale to Stormrider.
You didn't have an argument of merit with regards to Stormrider. The Codex provided additional Codex special rules for Stormrider. Remember, all Codex rules are advanced rules too.
I think you should really really focus in and read this rule as you seem to be totally oblivious to it.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
Brother Ramses, the above rule totally invalidates your argument. Care to comment?
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
It isn't a rule as that section does not contain all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles. You are literally breaking the game by using that as a lynch pin of your argument because the statement is patently false.
So on Logan Grimnar's profile has him listed as Unit Type Infantry, that is an Advanced Rule? But you have been arguing this entire time that Unit Type Infantry is a Basic Rule and all other Unit Types are Advanced.
My example clarifies completely how the Basic versus Advanced works out per the RAW where even your retort above is just another RAI assumption.
All models have the infantry basic rules. If Logan is on a chariot then he has advanced chariot rules. If Logan is on Stormrider (which is a chariot) then he has additional Codex special rules (which are advanced rules) for Stormrider.
This is all very simple and supported by the rules.
Your argument isn't supported by the rules. See the quote below.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
This is 100% b.s. that you have just pulled out of the rear of a male bovine. Like the biggest load that you may have ever written on these boards.
When Logan uses Stormrider, per the Unit Type Chariot Basic Rule he becomes the rider; just like any other model with Unit Type Infantry that is able to use a model that is Unit Type Chariot. Unlike every other model with Unit Type Infantry that is able to use a model that is Unit Type Chariot, the Advanced Rules specific to the model known as Stormrider, Logan gets to make 4 additonal Strength 5, AP- Attacks with the Rending Special Rule.
Dare I ask that you see how that works? Let me guess, you are going to spam the false statement from the Core Rules section.
Dismiss, dismiss, dismiss.
That is all you do, dismiss everything.
Wargear are not basic or advanced rules. They are profiles.
In the shooting phase you CHOOSE A WEAPON.
That tells you what profile you are using to shoot.
The PROFILE has basic or advanced rules, based on what the profile states.
The weapon itself is not a basic or advanced rule.
Incorrect. Not all models have wargear. When a specific model has a certain wargear such as a weapon or an iron halo it is an advanced rule.
Spoiler:
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
A Unit Type is just that, a type of unit. Your silly argument falls flat on its face by the fact that the location of the Unit Type for Infantry is located on the first page of Unit Types.
It has been pointed out numerous times with rules quotes that you are flat out wrong. The infantry rules are basic rules.
So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game.
As the bulk of the rules are concerned with them, there are no additional rules to present here.
Why do you persist in arguing against plainly stated rules?
Ceann wrote: Unit Types are the profiles that tell you the values different unit types use when performing the actions of movement, shooting, assault.
Just like a weapons profile tells you the values that weapon uses to shoot.
Neither of these tell you HOW to move or HOW to shoot. That is done in the core rules section, where the basic rules are.
These are the values you use when performing those basic rules.
Unit type is not a profile. You are making that up.
The Unit Types section is a collection of advanced rules that override the basic infantry rules that all models have.
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
All rules governing the actions of movement, shooting, assault and morale are located in the Core Rules section.
The Unit Types section introduces no new rules. It has values that are used by the Core Rules.
The Weaponry section also introduces no new rules. It has values that are used by the Core Rules, namely weapon profiles.
Each of those sections has special rules, which are identifed as special rules that are attached to those profiles.
All basic rules are still in the Core Rules Section.
All special rules are still sourced from the Special Rules section.
A unit type is not a profile. You have made this up. You are not allowed to make stuff up.
The Unit Types section is literally nothing but new rules. They are all advanced rules by definition. Some of those advanced rules are special rules. None of them are basic rules. All basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Oh Col, my special snowflake.
1. Incorrect. Not all models have wargear. When a specific model has a certain wargear such as a weapon or an iron halo it is an advanced rule.
Those are not advanced rules. The Appendix splash page tells us that it contains an advanced rules section, which is the Special Rules section.
2. whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun)
Can you name a type of boltgun that has a special rule? I can! A combimelta. Which has the special rule melta. Because advanced rules are special rules.
3. Why do you persist in arguing against plainly stated rules?
Stormbolters, lasguns and Lascannons are all located in the core rules section.
Are they advanced rules? No, they are not.
But the splash page says... as you like to quote """"Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.""""
This means that anything contained in the Core Rules section is a basic rule. But luckily for us the basic rules for shooting are "Choose a Weapon".
Just like the basic rules for movement are """In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.""""
So choosing a weapon is a basic rule, the profiles are different.
Moving a unit is a basic rule, the profiles are different.
4.It has been pointed out numerous times with rules quotes that you are flat out wrong. The infantry rules are basic rules
Where does it state, verbatim, that "Infantry rules are basic rules".
Basic vs advanced states "Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
Do you see where it says "Infantry rules apply to all models in the game".
I don't see that anywhere.
5. Unit type is not a profile. You are making that up.
CHARACTERISTIC PROFILES
Every model in Warhammer 40,000 has a profile that lists the values of its characteristics. You can find these profiles in a variety of Games Workshop publications, including codexes.
In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section.
A unit type is an addition to the profiles, per the basic rules under "Models and Units"
6" Movement is the Basic Rule in the Movement Phase for Unit Type Infantry:
All Unit Type Infantry have a maximum move of 6" barring any Advanced Rule that allows them to move more.
12" Movement is the Basic Rule for Unit Type Jump Infantry:
All Unit Type Jump Infantry have a maximum movement of 12" barring any Advanced Rule that allows them to move more.
Being basic to its own type is meaningless as that is not part of the definitions of advanced rules nor the basic rules as defined in Unit Type and Basic vs Advanced.
Advanced Rules are those which differentiate a model from being an Infantry model, among other things.
Jump Models can move 12" and ignore Terrain while doing so. Infantry cannot do this. Therefore, this aspect is an advanced rule.
Mr. Shine wrote:Didn't you agree earlier with Charistoph that having a storm bolter is an advanced rule? Please, be consistent.
I never actually said that, so he never agreed with me on that.
I said a Storm Bolter is neither basic or advanced rules, but Wargear which carries rules. Some are basic, and some may be advanced. That is what he agreed with.
Ceann wrote:An Iron Halo, modifys your save, which it is permitted to do.
An Iron Halo, is not a basic rule or an advanced rule, it is a piece of wargear, using the basic rule to modify stats.
1) The actual act of modifying Saves is never stated as a basic rule. It was just noting the capacity to define how to handle the process, not the method or the process.
2) Iron Halos do not modify a Save, they provide one. No matter what the Armour Save is or how many other Invulnerable Saves the model has already, if they have an Iron Halo, they have one more.
Ceann wrote:The Unit Type Infantry has no special rules attached to it.
The Unit Type Calvary has the Fleet special rule attached to it.
Both of those units use the same basic rules that dictate how they can move.
Both use the same basic rules that dictate how they shoot. etc etc.
No, they do not. Cavalry can move 12", Infantry can move 6". It specifically states this in the Unit Type for Cavalry. This is something that differentiates it from Infantry, so an advanced rule.
Ceann wrote:Brother Ramses has done a better job of illustrating the point than have.
Not really as he is ignoring the exact same things you are ignoring.
It isn't a rule as that section does not contain all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles. You are literally breaking the game by using that as a lynch pin of your argument because the statement is patently false.
So now your argument is that the BRB is lying to us? I guess you need to start posting in the Proposed Rules section since going against plainly stated rules is not allowed in this forum. You have basically conceded.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
The statement is completely true and I have no problem with it in my argument. I have all the basic rules I need in the Core Rules section. All the sections after the Core Rules section contain all the advanced rules I need.
If there is any problem with that rule it is because you are inventing it with your invalid argument.
Brother Ramses and Ceann, are all the basic rules located in the Core Rules section of Warhammer 40,000: The Rules, or are some of them located elsewhere?
Ceann wrote: A unit type is an addition to the profiles, per the basic rules under "Models and Units"
It is also indicated on the Army List Entry, like other Advanced Rules.
I need you to work with me here buddy.
1.
What is the basic rule for movement?
From "The Turn"
2. Movement phase. Here, you move any of your units that are capable of doing so. See the movement rules for more details of how to do this.
Okay, lets see the movement phase.
Noted under "The Movement Phase"
For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance
Before you bring this up...this statement?
Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase.
Has been preceded by THIS statement "For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move".
You are being told how infantry moves, you are not being told that infantry is the rule, or the standard.
The rule is "In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance." As noted from "The Turn"
I don't know about you but "For the time being" is pretty clear to me.
What unit from Unit Type is breaking these rules?
2.
What is the basic rule for shooting?
From "The Turn"
4. Shooting phase. You now shoot with any of your units that are capable of doing so. See the shooting rules for more details on how to resolve this.
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot , 2. Choose a Target, 3. Select a Weapon, 4. Roll To Hit, 5. Roll To Wound, 6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties, 7. Select Another Weapon
What unit from the Unit Type section is breaking these rules?
1. Incorrect. Not all models have wargear. When a specific model has a certain wargear such as a weapon or an iron halo it is an advanced rule.
Those are not advanced rules. The Appendix splash page tells us that it contains an advanced rules section, which is the Special Rules section.
The Appendix splash page says this.
This section contains a collection of advanced rules, weaponry, and abilities that you can use to add variety to your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
It does not say that the Appendix contains ALL of the advanced rules.
Why do you refer to rules that do not support what your are saying? This is rules abuse.
When a model is equipped with a specific kind of weapon it is an advanced rule. This is because not all models are equipped with a weapon. There is no basic shooting weapon that all models are assumed to have. All models are assumed to have a close combat weapon for assault purposes (see No Specified Melee Weapon rule).
2. whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun)
Can you name a type of boltgun that has a special rule? I can! A combimelta. Which has the special rule melta. Because advanced rules are special rules.
The actual rule lists boltgun and not combi-melta which proves my point and invalidates yours.
The rules statement is right there on the page and says 'boltgun' and not 'combi-melta'. You are not allowed to add words to the rules. Stick to what the rules actually say!
When a model is equipped with a specific kind of weapon such as a boltgun it is an advanced rule.
Ceann wrote: 3. Why do you persist in arguing against plainly stated rules?
Stormbolters, lasguns and Lascannons are all located in the core rules section.
Are they advanced rules? No, they are not.
But the splash page says... as you like to quote """"Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.""""
This means that anything contained in the Core Rules section is a basic rule. But luckily for us the basic rules for shooting are "Choose a Weapon".
Just like the basic rules for movement are """In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.""""
So choosing a weapon is a basic rule, the profiles are different.
Moving a unit is a basic rule, the profiles are different.
I have pointed this out multiple times.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
This statement says that all the basic rules are in the Core Rules section. The statement does not say that there is nothing but basic rules in the Core Rules section.
Quit making stuff up. Stick to what the rules actually say!
Ceann wrote: 4.It has been pointed out numerous times with rules quotes that you are flat out wrong. The infantry rules are basic rules
Where does it state, verbatim, that "Infantry rules are basic rules".
Basic vs advanced states "Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
Do you see where it says "Infantry rules apply to all models in the game".
I don't see that anywhere.
Again, this has been pointed out multiple times.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game.
As the bulk of the rules are concerned with them, there are no additional rules to present here.
Ceann wrote: 5. Unit type is not a profile. You are making that up.
CHARACTERISTIC PROFILES
Every model in Warhammer 40,000 has a profile that lists the values of its characteristics. You can find these profiles in a variety of Games Workshop publications, including codexes.
In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section.
A unit type is an addition to the profiles, per the basic rules under "Models and Units"
So then you prove my point, a unit type is not a profile.
Quit bending what the rules say and pay attention to what they actually say!
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
6" Movement is the Basic Rule in the Movement Phase for Unit Type Infantry:
All Unit Type Infantry have a maximum move of 6" barring any Advanced Rule that allows them to move more.
12" Movement is the Basic Rule for Unit Type Jump Infantry:
All Unit Type Jump Infantry have a maximum movement of 12" barring any Advanced Rule that allows them to move more.
Being basic to its own type is meaningless as that is not part of the definitions of advanced rules nor the basic rules as defined in Unit Type and Basic vs Advanced.
Advanced Rules are those which differentiate a model from being an Infantry model, among other things.
Jump Models can move 12" and ignore Terrain while doing so. Infantry cannot do this. Therefore, this aspect is an advanced rule.
Mr. Shine wrote:Didn't you agree earlier with Charistoph that having a storm bolter is an advanced rule? Please, be consistent.
I never actually said that, so he never agreed with me on that.
I said a Storm Bolter is neither basic or advanced rules, but Wargear which carries rules. Some are basic, and some may be advanced. That is what he agreed with.
Ceann wrote:An Iron Halo, modifys your save, which it is permitted to do.
An Iron Halo, is not a basic rule or an advanced rule, it is a piece of wargear, using the basic rule to modify stats.
1) The actual act of modifying Saves is never stated as a basic rule. It was just noting the capacity to define how to handle the process, not the method or the process.
2) Iron Halos do not modify a Save, they provide one. No matter what the Armour Save is or how many other Invulnerable Saves the model has already, if they have an Iron Halo, they have one more.
Ceann wrote:The Unit Type Infantry has no special rules attached to it.
The Unit Type Calvary has the Fleet special rule attached to it.
Both of those units use the same basic rules that dictate how they can move.
Both use the same basic rules that dictate how they shoot. etc etc.
No, they do not. Cavalry can move 12", Infantry can move 6". It specifically states this in the Unit Type for Cavalry. This is something that differentiates it from Infantry, so an advanced rule.
Ceann wrote:Brother Ramses has done a better job of illustrating the point than have.
Not really as he is ignoring the exact same things you are ignoring.
Wrong.
Kharn the Betrayer is Unit Type Infantry (Character), so he follows all the Basic rules for Unit Type Infantry, just like any other model that has Unit Type Infantry, for the Movement phase, Shooting phase, and Assault phase.
He has a set of Special Rules; Champion of Chaos, Fearless, Furious Charge, IC, Mark of Khorne, Veterans of the Long War.
But wait! In the Assault phase, he has an Advanced rule, The Betrayer, that results in unmodified rolls of one hitting a friendly model in the same unit.
So as I just showed you, Advanced Rules do not differentiate from being an Infantry model. Kharn is still Unit Type Infantry with an Advanced Rule in Assault and a list of Special Rules.
This is 100% b.s. that you have just pulled out of the rear of a male bovine. Like the biggest load that you may have ever written on these boards.
When Logan uses Stormrider, per the Unit Type Chariot Basic Rule he becomes the rider; just like any other model with Unit Type Infantry that is able to use a model that is Unit Type Chariot. Unlike every other model with Unit Type Infantry that is able to use a model that is Unit Type Chariot, the Advanced Rules specific to the model known as Stormrider, Logan gets to make 4 additonal Strength 5, AP- Attacks with the Rending Special Rule.
Dare I ask that you see how that works? Let me guess, you are going to spam the false statement from the Core Rules section.
You are just confused. There is nothing really of note in the Stomrider example.
Logan has the basic rules for Infantry.
He is in a chariot so that applies those advanced rules from the Unit Types section.
In addition, Stomrider is itself a Codex special rule (that is also an advanced rule).
These all work together just fine per the Basic Versus Advanced Rule.
Spoiler:
Basic Versus Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.
I suggest you read the entire rule carefully. It all works just fine in the Stormrider example. Just read the rules and apply them.
And also don't forget this rule!
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models
Do Infantry, located on the FIRST PAGE of the Unit Types section, possess any innate special rules?
No.
That is why those are "all the rules you will need for infantry" because infantry do not possess any innate special rules.
The special rules section state it PRESENTS ALL special rules.
The Datasheet entry for the special rules section also notates that all special rules are located in a codex, any special rule NOT located in the codex is located in the Special Rules section of the BRB.
We have the BRB and Codex's telling us to look in the same place within the BRB for special rules.
In order for a rule to be an advanced rule it MUST be conflicting with a basic rule. Any rule that conflicts with a basic rule is notated in the Special Rules section.
By the process of elimination, nothing located in the "Unit Types" section can be an advanced rul.
The other unit types DO have innate special rules.
Which can be found in the special rules section.
Kharn the Betrayer is Unit Type Infantry (Character), so he follows all the Basic rules for Unit Type Infantry, just like any other model that has Unit Type Infantry, for the Movement phase, Shooting phase, and Assault phase.
He has a set of Special Rules; Champion of Chaos, Fearless, Furious Charge, IC, Mark of Khorne, Veterans of the Long War.
But wait! In the Assault phase, he has an Advanced rule, The Betrayer, that results in unmodified rolls of one hitting a friendly model in the same unit.
So as I just showed you, Advanced Rules do not differentiate from being an Infantry model. Kharn is still Unit Type Infantry with an Advanced Rule in Assault and a list of Special Rules.
Are you nuts? The advanced rule and special rules (which are advanced rules) all differentiate him from a basic infantry. Basic infantry cannot hit friendly units in assault.
You guys are literally having trouble with basic logic and basic comprehension here.
WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. Most special rules are given to a model by the relevant Army List Entry or its unit type.
That said, a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.
A Compendium of Special Rules
For ease of consultation, we’ve presented the special rules in alphabetical order. There’s
also an index at the back of the book to help you locate any particular special rule you’re
after.
ARMY LIST ENTRIES
Each Army List Entry contains the following information:
9. Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here. Special
rules that are unique to models in that unit are described in full here, whilst others are
detailed either in the Appendix of this book or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer
40,000: The Rules
In order for a rule to be an advanced rule it MUST be conflicting with a basic rule. Any rule that conflicts with a basic rule is notated in the Special Rules section.
There is no such rule in the BRB. You are making this up. You are not allowed to make stuff up in YMDC. Post in the Proposed Rules section.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote: WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. Most special rules are given to a model by the relevant Army List Entry or its unit type.
That said, a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.
A Compendium of Special Rules
For ease of consultation, we’ve presented the special rules in alphabetical order. There’s
also an index at the back of the book to help you locate any particular special rule you’re
after.
ARMY LIST ENTRIES
Each Army List Entry contains the following information:
9. Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here. Special
rules that are unique to models in that unit are described in full here, whilst others are
detailed either in the Appendix of this book or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer
40,000: The Rules
Thanks for the rules quotes.
These rule quotes support my argument.
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
In order for a rule to be an advanced rule it MUST be conflicting with a basic rule. Any rule that conflicts with a basic rule is notated in the Special Rules section.
There is no such rule in the BRB. You are making this up. You are not allowed to make stuff up in YMDC. Post in the Proposed Rules section.
BRB SPECIAL RULES SECTION.
Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule.
Basic vs Advanced
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
Name all the special rules located in the Unit Types section?
In order for a rule to be an advanced rule it MUST be conflicting with a basic rule. Any rule that conflicts with a basic rule is notated in the Special Rules section.
There is no such rule in the BRB. You are making this up. You are not allowed to make stuff up in YMDC. Post in the Proposed Rules section.
BRB SPECIAL RULES SECTION.
Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule.
Basic vs Advanced
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
Name all the special rules located in the Unit Types section?
Let's just look at the bike unit type as an example
The bike unit type has a number of advanced rules and a number of advanced rules that are special rules
advanced rules which are not special rules 1) ARMOURED STEED - Bike and Jetbike riders benefit from an increase to their Toughness characteristic by 1. If the Bike or Jetbike is part of the model’s standard wargear, this bonus is already included on its profile. In addition, Bikes and Jetbikes cannot Go to Ground, and cannot be Pinned.
2) MOVEMENT - Bikes and Jetbikes can move up to 12" in the Movement phase.
3) BIKES & TERRAIN - Bikes and Jetbikes are not slowed down by difficult terrain (even when charging). However, Bikes treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain instead.
4) FALL BACK MOVES - Bikes and Jetbikes move 3D6" when Falling Back, rather than 2D6".
5) SHOOTING - Each Bike or Jetbike in a unit can fire with one weapon for each rider on the Bike. Thus a Space Marine Attack Bike with a driver and passenger in sidecar can fire two weapons.
6) TURBO-BOOST - Bikes and Jetbikes cannot Run, but can make a special Turbo-boost move instead of firing in their Shooting phase. Turbo-boosting Bikes move up to 12", Turbo-boosting Jetbikes move up to 24". Controlling their Bikes at such speeds takes all the riders’ concentration and skill, however. Bikes and Jetbikes therefore cannot shoot, charge or execute any other voluntary action until the end of their turn after Turbo-boosting.
special rules which are advanced rules 1) Hammer of Wrath
2) Jink
3) Relentless
4) Very Bulky
Automatically Appended Next Post: This statement that you made up . . .
In order for a rule to be an advanced rule it MUST be conflicting with a basic rule.
does not follow from this statement which is in the actual rules
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
An advanced rule can be an advanced rule that is not in conflict with a basic rule. The rule just says that an advanced rule will always override any contradicting basic rules.
Again, more logic and reading comprehension problems from you guys. Quit bending what the rules actually say!
This is 100% b.s. that you have just pulled out of the rear of a male bovine. Like the biggest load that you may have ever written on these boards.
When Logan uses Stormrider, per the Unit Type Chariot Basic Rule he becomes the rider; just like any other model with Unit Type Infantry that is able to use a model that is Unit Type Chariot. Unlike every other model with Unit Type Infantry that is able to use a model that is Unit Type Chariot, the Advanced Rules specific to the model known as Stormrider, Logan gets to make 4 additonal Strength 5, AP- Attacks with the Rending Special Rule.
Dare I ask that you see how that works? Let me guess, you are going to spam the false statement from the Core Rules section.
You are just confused. There is nothing really of note in the Stomrider example.
Logan has the basic rules for Infantry.
He is in a chariot so that applies those advanced rules from the Unit Types section.
In addition, Stomrider is itself a Codex special rule (that is also an advanced rule).
These all work together just fine per the Basic Versus Advanced Rule.
Spoiler:
Basic Versus Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.
I suggest you read the entire rule carefully. It all works just fine in the Stormrider example. Just read the rules and apply them.
And also don't forget this rule!
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
First, Stormrider is not a Special Rule. It is a model with Unit Type (Chariot, Open-topped) as shown clearly in the screenshots attached to that post that you must have skipped over. It follows all the Basic Rules for Unit Type (Chariot, Open-topped) for Movement, Shooting, and Assault. However unlike other models that are Unit Type (Chariot, Open-topped) it has Advanced Rules as shown in the screenshot, that you must have skipped over as well, for Shooting and Assault.
Can you try and not just make up stuff? I have now provided two ironclad examples, one with Stormrider and one with Kharn on how the process works and yet everything you have posted in this thread has been RAI.
First, Stormrider is not a Special Rule. It is a model with Unit Type (Chariot, Open-topped) as shown clearly in the screenshots attached to that post that you must have skipped over. It follows all the Basic Rules for Unit Type (Chariot, Open-topped) for Movement, Shooting, and Assault. However unlike other models that are Unit Type (Chariot, Open-topped) it has Advanced Rules as shown in the screenshot, that you must have skipped over as well, for Shooting and Assault.
Can you try and not just make up stuff? I have now provided two ironclad examples, one with Stormrider and one with Kharn on how the process works and yet everything you have posted in this thread has been RAI.
The Chariot rules are not basic rules. The rules are not in the Core Rules section and they expand on the basic infantry rules by a huge margin.
You are just confused. There is nothing really of note in the Stomrider example.
Logan has the basic rules for Infantry.
He is in a chariot so that applies those advanced rules from the Unit Types section.
In addition, Stomrider is itself a Codex special rule (that is also an advanced rule).
These all work together just fine per the Basic Versus Advanced Rule.
Spoiler:
Basic Versus Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.
In order for a rule to be an advanced rule it MUST be conflicting with a basic rule. Any rule that conflicts with a basic rule is notated in the Special Rules section.
There is no such rule in the BRB. You are making this up. You are not allowed to make stuff up in YMDC. Post in the Proposed Rules section.
BRB SPECIAL RULES SECTION.
Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule.
Basic vs Advanced
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
Name all the special rules located in the Unit Types section?
Let's just look at the bike unit type as an example
The bike unit type has a number of advanced rules and a number of advanced rules that are special rules
advanced rules which are not special rules 1) ARMOURED STEED - Bike and Jetbike riders benefit from an increase to their Toughness characteristic by 1. If the Bike or Jetbike is part of the model’s standard wargear, this bonus is already included on its profile. In addition, Bikes and Jetbikes cannot Go to Ground, and cannot be Pinned.
2) MOVEMENT - Bikes and Jetbikes can move up to 12" in the Movement phase.
3) BIKES & TERRAIN - Bikes and Jetbikes are not slowed down by difficult terrain (even when charging). However, Bikes treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain instead.
4) FALL BACK MOVES - Bikes and Jetbikes move 3D6" when Falling Back, rather than 2D6".
5) SHOOTING - Each Bike or Jetbike in a unit can fire with one weapon for each rider on the Bike. Thus a Space Marine Attack Bike with a driver and passenger in sidecar can fire two weapons.
6) TURBO-BOOST - Bikes and Jetbikes cannot Run, but can make a special Turbo-boost move instead of firing in their Shooting phase. Turbo-boosting Bikes move up to 12", Turbo-boosting Jetbikes move up to 24". Controlling their Bikes at such speeds takes all the riders’ concentration and skill, however. Bikes and Jetbikes therefore cannot shoot, charge or execute any other voluntary action until the end of their turn after Turbo-boosting.
special rules which are advanced rules 1) Hammer of Wrath
2) Jink
3) Relentless
4) Very Bulky
Wrong.
If they are an advanced rule, then they are breaking a basic rule.
If they are breaking a basic rule, then they will be listed in the Special Rules Section.
Which is notated by both the BRB and any codex Army List Entry.
Quoted below...
BRB For ease of consultation, we’ve presented the special rules in alphabetical order. There’s
also an index at the back of the book to help you locate any particular special rule you’re after.
Army List Entry
Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here, or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.
1. Armored Steed, is it listed in the Index as stated by the special rules section? No.
2. Movement - Movement is a basic rule that apply's to all models.
3. Bikes & Terrain, is it listed in the Index as stated by the special rules section? No.
4. Fallback Moves - Morale is a basic rule that apply's to all models.
5. Shooting - Shooting is a basic rule that apply's to all models.
6. Turboboost - Shooting is a basic rule that apply's to all models, this is a run move from the basic rules.
If they are an advanced rule, then they are breaking a basic rule.
If they are breaking a basic rule, then they will be listed in the Special Rules Section.
Again you are making this stuff up. Quit making stuff up!
This is what an advanced rule is . . .
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
This is what a special rule is . . .
Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule.
All special rules are by logical necessity advanced rules, but not all advanced rules are special rules.
Skyborne is an advanced rule but it is not a special rule.
Spoiler:
SKYBORNE
When using its jump pack (whether moving, charging or Falling Back, as we’ll discuss in a moment) a model can move over all other models and all terrain freely. However, if the model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test.
Jump models cannot end their move on top of other models and can only end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the models on top of it. If they do this, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain.
Let's just look at the bike unit type as an example.
The bike unit type has a number of advanced rules and a number of advanced rules that are special rules
advanced rules which are not special rules 1) ARMOURED STEED - Bike and Jetbike riders benefit from an increase to their Toughness characteristic by 1. If the Bike or Jetbike is part of the model’s standard wargear, this bonus is already included on its profile. In addition, Bikes and Jetbikes cannot Go to Ground, and cannot be Pinned.
2) MOVEMENT - Bikes and Jetbikes can move up to 12" in the Movement phase.
3) BIKES & TERRAIN - Bikes and Jetbikes are not slowed down by difficult terrain (even when charging). However, Bikes treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain instead.
4) FALL BACK MOVES - Bikes and Jetbikes move 3D6" when Falling Back, rather than 2D6".
5) SHOOTING - Each Bike or Jetbike in a unit can fire with one weapon for each rider on the Bike. Thus a Space Marine Attack Bike with a driver and passenger in sidecar can fire two weapons.
6) TURBO-BOOST - Bikes and Jetbikes cannot Run, but can make a special Turbo-boost move instead of firing in their Shooting phase. Turbo-boosting Bikes move up to 12", Turbo-boosting Jetbikes move up to 24". Controlling their Bikes at such speeds takes all the riders’ concentration and skill, however. Bikes and Jetbikes therefore cannot shoot, charge or execute any other voluntary action until the end of their turn after Turbo-boosting.
special rules which are advanced rules 1) Hammer of Wrath
2) Jink
3) Relentless
4) Very Bulky
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
If they are an advanced rule, then they are breaking a basic rule.
If they are breaking a basic rule, then they will be listed in the Special Rules Section.
Again you are making this stuff up. Quit making stuff up!
This is what an advanced rule is . . .
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
This is what a special rule is . . .
Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule.
All special rules are by logical necessity advanced rules, but not all advanced rules are special rules.
Skyborne is an advanced rule but it is not a special rule.
Spoiler:
SKYBORNE
When using its jump pack (whether moving, charging or Falling Back, as we’ll discuss in a moment) a model can move over all other models and all terrain freely. However, if the model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test.
Jump models cannot end their move on top of other models and can only end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the models on top of it. If they do this, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain.
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
Dear Col, please do not get so upset.
The rules state, in the front of the book, that the bolded text is the most important statement involving any set of rules.
The bolded statement for Basic vs Advanced is this...
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
According to what you have stated above, you are applying the rules for a specific model and overriding the basic rules.
You have said before that we cannot move 12" on a Calvary because we are breaking the rules.
If we are breaking the rules then we have a special rule!
It must be located in the special rules section.
Since it is not located in the special rules section it is not a special rule.
If it is not a special rule it is not an advanced rule.
As you can see the BRB defined term classify's a special rule as breaking rules
WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule.
Most special rules are given to a model by the relevant Army List Entry or its unit type.
And remember Col, Appendix says "Advanced Rules"
All advanced rules are in the Appendix.
Skyborne is a Basic Rule for Unit Type Jump Infantry. Bulky and Deep Strike are the Special Rules for Unit Type Jump Infantry.
Since you completely just made up everything applied to Stormrider (it being a Special Rule, LMAO). By all means let me see your interpretation of Kharn?
The rules state, in the front of the book, that the bolded text is the most important statement involving any set of rules.
The bolded statement for Basic vs Advanced is this...
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
According to what you have stated above, you are applying the rules for a specific model and overriding the basic rules.
You have said before that we cannot move 12" on a Calvary because we are breaking the rules.
If we are breaking the rules then we have a special rule!
It must be located in the special rules section.
Since it is not located in the special rules section it is not a special rule.
If it is not a special rule it is not an advanced rule.
As you can see the BRB defined term classify's a special rule as breaking rules
WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule.
Most special rules are given to a model by the relevant Army List Entry or its unit type.
And remember Col, Appendix says "Advanced Rules"
All advanced rules are in the Appendix.
Again. You are ignoring plainly stated definitions.
This is what an advanced rule is . . .
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
This is what a special rule is . . .
Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule.
All special rules are by logical necessity advanced rules, but not all advanced rules are special rules.
Ceann wrote: All advanced rules are in the Appendix.
The Appendix splash page says this.
This section contains a collection of advanced rules, weaponry, and abilities that you can use to add variety to your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
The Appendix does not say that all advanced rules are in the Appendix.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
Col you are quoting out of context, you are bringing up one sentence in the entire Basic Vs Advanced.
"The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated
in its Army List Entry."
"Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules."
If you are contradicting basic rules, that is an attribute of a special rule. Special Rules are located in the special rules section.
This below part of basic vs advanced tells us that advanced rules are special rules.
"For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence."
So as you can clearly see, Dear Col.
If you read the ENTIRE basic vs advanced, it more clearly tells you where to look. I am sorry you are so focused on a single sentence that gives you no specific directions.
Ceann wrote: Col you are quoting out of context, you are bringing up one sentence in the entire Basic Vs Advanced.
"The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated
in its Army List Entry."
"Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules."
If you are contradicting basic rules, that is an attribute of a special rule. Special Rules are located in the special rules section.
This below part of basic vs advanced tells us that advanced rules are special rules.
"For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence."
So as you can clearly see, Dear Col.
If you read the ENTIRE basic vs advanced, it more clearly tells you where to look. I am sorry you are so focused on a single sentence that gives you no specific directions.
Special Rules are strictly abilities.
Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule.
Advanced rules come from having a special kind of wargear, unusual skills, being different to their fellows, or being not normal infantry
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
All special rules are advanced rules but not all advanced rules are special rules.
When a model is equipped with a boltgun it is an advanced rule. An equipped boltgun is not a special rule.
So Skyborne is a advanced rule that a Jump model has because it is not normal infantry model, but it is not an ability that bends or breaks the game.
"Special rules are so important that many of the other rules in this tome (particularly those for weapons and for troop types) are tied into the special rules given here."
The only special rule that any Boltgun has is a Combi-gun.
Melta, Graviton, Gets Hot
"Special rules are so important that many of the other rules in this tome (particularly those for weapons and for troop types) are tied into the special rules given here."
The only special rule that any Boltgun has is a Combi-gun.
COMBI-WEAPONS
Combi-weapons are boltguns...
Do you see combi-melta in this rule?
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
No. We do not.
When a model is equipped with a boltgun it is an advanced rule.
I am accepting the rules as they are actually written.
Apparently you feel that you can just freely change the rules as you like. Your posts need to go in the Proposed Rules section.
Your argument has no place in YMDC. You are violating plainly stated rules.
"Special rules are so important that many of the other rules in this tome (particularly those for weapons and for troop types) are tied into the special rules given here."
The only special rule that any Boltgun has is a Combi-gun.
COMBI-WEAPONS
Combi-weapons are boltguns...
Do you see combi-melta in this rule?
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
No. We do not.
When a model is equipped with a boltgun it is an advanced rule.
I am accepting the rules as they are actually written.
Apparently you feel that you can just freely change the rules as you like. Your posts need to go in the Proposed Rules section.
Your argument has no place in YMDC. You are violating plainly stated rules.
I don't see " See Unit Types" for advanced rules.
You are violating plainly stated rules.
Your interpretation of advanced rules is your own house rule, not RAW.
Please keep your house rules at home.
I don't see " See Unit Types" for advanced rules.
You are violating plainly stated rules.
Your interpretation of advanced rules is your own house rule, not RAW.
Please keep your house rules at home.
It's there.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
Remember the Core Rules section contains all the basic rules.
You have quoted this many times Col.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
A boltgun is located on page 31 of the Shooting Phase.
A boltgun is a basic rule Col, by your own words.
Let's look at this statement again for the nth time.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
The Core Rules contain all the basic rules, but not all of the rules in the Core Rules section are necessarily basic rules.
The actual profile (ie the actual rules) for the boltgun are located in the Appendix.
Not all models have shooting weapons. So whenever a model is equipped with a shooting weapon it is an advanced rule, because that distinguishes itself from the most basic infantry.
Spoiler:
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
All that this means Col, is that Infantry units do not have any special rules by default. Which they don't.
"""Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank). """
Where are you told to consult the Unit Types section Col?
Stop making things up.
Ceann wrote: Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
All that this means Col, is that Infantry units do not have any special rules by default. Which they don't.
This actually means that they do not have any advanced rules. Which they don't. So the most basic infantry unit doesn't have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun) or a bike.
Remember special rules are a special kind of advanced rule representing abilities that GW thinks break or bend the rules of the game.
Advanced rules are more generally any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
Ceann wrote: """Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank). """
Where are you told to consult the Unit Types section Col?
Stop making things up.
Already pointed out.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rules support my argument. The rules do not support your argument.
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Ceann wrote: Do you see "Unit Type" Section in this rule?
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Since I have read the BRB I know where to go for advanced rules about "not normal infantry models". No explicit reference required.
So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game. However, whilst the definition of Infantry is incredibly broad (it can cover anything from the most diminutive Gretchin to the mightiest Space Marine), it’s not enough to capture the full variety, scope and splendour of a war-torn galaxy teeming with all manner of alien beasts.
To do justice to the full pomp and panoply of xenos creatures (as well as some of the weirder beings in service to the Emperor of Mankind), we will now cover a series of unit types, each with their own abilities and special rules. Vehicles are distinct enough to require their own section later on.
Unit Types
This section explores all the different unit types that describe your models. From footslogging infantry and rampaging monstrous creatures to armoured battle tanks and supersonic flyers, this section lists all the special rules that apply to these models. This section also includes rules to field the largest and most destructive units waging war on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium – super-heavy vehicles and gargantuan creatures – as well as detailing how heroic characters lead your troops to victory.
UNIT TYPES
This section describes the different types of units that can wage war in the 41st Millennium and the rules you will need to use them.
Is there some other place I should look in the BRB for advanced rules for "not normal infantry models" than the Unit Types section?
When I told you I knew where to go for a "special kind of bolt gun" you asked "Do you see Combi-weapon here?" In order to prove your point.
When I asked you "Do you see Unit Type here?" You say that you know where to go.
That sounds like your own personal house rules Col. Your house rules are not RAW, please stop making things up.
The only location we have for advanced rules is from the Index which tells us page 13. Page 13 tells us we can find where advanced rules are applied in Army List Entry's.
It does not tell us to apply advanced rules from the BRB.
You are making things up.
No, there is no place you should look in the BRB for "not normal infantry models" you should look in the Army List Entry like it tells you.
Unit Types
This section explores all the different unit types that describe your models. From footslogging infantry
See, even Infantry are located in the Unit Types section.
They cannot be located there if they are the basic rule, because all basic rules are located in the Core Rules section.
When I told you I knew where to go for a "special kind of bolt gun" you asked "Do you see Combi-weapon here?" In order to prove your point.
When I asked you "Do you see Unit Type here?" You say that you know where to go.
That sounds like your own personal house rules Col. Your house rules are not RAW, please stop making things up.
The only location we have for advanced rules is from the Index which tells us page 13. Page 13 tells us we can find where advanced rules are applied in Army List Entry's.
It does not tell us to apply advanced rules from the BRB.
You are making things up.
Nope the organization of the BRB makes it easy for me to find the rules for "not normal infantry".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote: No, there is no place you should look in the BRB for "not normal infantry models" you should look in the Army List Entry like it tells you.
That's fine too. The Unit Type attribute on the Army List Entry will direct me to the Unit Types section in the BRB.
Ceann wrote: Unit Types
This section explores all the different unit types that describe your models. From footslogging infantry
See, even Infantry are located in the Unit Types section.
They cannot be located there if they are the basic rule, because all basic rules are located in the Core Rules section.
Not an issue. When you go there, the Unit Types section tells you all the rules for infantry are in the Core Rules section and no new rules are added in the Unit Types section.
So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game.
As the bulk of the rules are concerned with them, there are no additional rules to present here.
So all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
The rules support my argument. The rules do not support your argument.
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
When I told you I knew where to go for a "special kind of bolt gun" you asked "Do you see Combi-weapon here?" In order to prove your point.
When I asked you "Do you see Unit Type here?" You say that you know where to go.
That sounds like your own personal house rules Col. Your house rules are not RAW, please stop making things up.
The only location we have for advanced rules is from the Index which tells us page 13. Page 13 tells us we can find where advanced rules are applied in Army List Entry's.
It does not tell us to apply advanced rules from the BRB.
You are making things up.
Nope the organization of the BRB makes it easy for me to find the rules for "not normal infantry".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote: No, there is no place you should look in the BRB for "not normal infantry models" you should look in the Army List Entry like it tells you.
That's fine too. The Unit Type attribute on the Army List Entry will direct me to the Unit Types section in the BRB.
Ceann wrote: Unit Types
This section explores all the different unit types that describe your models. From footslogging infantry
See, even Infantry are located in the Unit Types section.
They cannot be located there if they are the basic rule, because all basic rules are located in the Core Rules section.
Not an issue. When you go there, the Unit Types section tells you all the rules for infantry are in the Core Rules section and no new rules are added in the Unit Types section.
So all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Well the organization of the BRB made it easy for me to find a combi-weapon.
There are no rules present on page 61 for Infantry.
Since Infantry Units are located on page 61 they are an advanced rule.
Since advanced rules take precedence, Infantry cannot move.
There are no directions on page 61 to consult the Core Rules section.
Well the organization of the BRB made it easy for me to find a combi-weapon.
You just pointed out that the BvA rules explicitly tell me to use the Army List Entry and when I do then it directs me explicitly to the Unit Types section. So you proved me right.
The rule says 'boltgun'. Deal with what the rules actually say.
Ceann wrote: There are no rules present on page 61 for Infantry.
Since Infantry Units are located on page 61 they are an advanced rule.
Since advanced rules take precedence, Infantry cannot move.
There are no directions on page 61 to consult the Core Rules section.
Good thing all models have the basic rules for infantry applied to them and there is no need for an explicit direction to those rules. Those rules are just 'there already'. And if you go to a page that says it adds nothing to those basic rules then there is nothing to override those basic rules.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
When I told you I knew where to go for a "special kind of bolt gun" you asked "Do you see Combi-weapon here?" In order to prove your point.
When I asked you "Do you see Unit Type here?" You say that you know where to go.
That sounds like your own personal house rules Col. Your house rules are not RAW, please stop making things up.
The only location we have for advanced rules is from the Index which tells us page 13. Page 13 tells us we can find where advanced rules are applied in Army List Entry's.
It does not tell us to apply advanced rules from the BRB.
You are making things up.
Nope the organization of the BRB makes it easy for me to find the rules for "not normal infantry".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote: No, there is no place you should look in the BRB for "not normal infantry models" you should look in the Army List Entry like it tells you.
That's fine too. The Unit Type attribute on the Army List Entry will direct me to the Unit Types section in the BRB.
Ceann wrote: Unit Types
This section explores all the different unit types that describe your models. From footslogging infantry
See, even Infantry are located in the Unit Types section.
They cannot be located there if they are the basic rule, because all basic rules are located in the Core Rules section.
Not an issue. When you go there, the Unit Types section tells you all the rules for infantry are in the Core Rules section and no new rules are added in the Unit Types section.
So all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Well the organization of the BRB made it easy for me to find a combi-weapon.
There are no rules present on page 61 for Infantry.
Since Infantry Units are located on page 61 they are an advanced rule.
Since advanced rules take precedence, Infantry cannot move.
There are no directions on page 61 to consult the Core Rules section.
This is funny, but that is what happens when you play loose with RAI. Of course, col_impact is always welcome to use the RAW examples I have shown to make it work. I have noticed that nobody has had an issue with my Kharn example. I could bring up Kor'sorro example with Moondrakken if needed?
This is funny, but that is what happens when you play loose with RAI. Of course, col_impact is always welcome to use the RAW examples I have shown to make it work. I have noticed that nobody has had an issue with my Kharn example. I could bring up Kor'sorro example with Moondrakken if needed?
No offense but people are basically just ignoring you. Your posts aren't really adding anything to the discussion. Your posts are really just showing that you are confused about BvA and that you think its okay to violate plainly stated rules.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
YMDC doesn't like arguments that directly contradict plainly stated rules.
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
You are not told to look at "Unit Type" section.
The best answer you have is "Nope the organization of the BRB makes it easy for me to find the rules for "not normal infantry".
I am sorry but BvA doesn't say that is the rule.
Your posts are really just showing that you are confused about BvA and that you think its okay to violate plainly stated rules.
You are not told to look at "Unit Type" section.
The best answer you have is "Nope the organization of the BRB makes it easy for me to find the rules for "not normal infantry".
I am sorry but BvA doesn't say that is the rule.
Your posts are really just showing that you are confused about BvA and that you think its okay to violate plainly stated rules.
The BvA rules explicitly tell me to use the Army List Entry and when I do then it directs me explicitly to the Unit Types section.
If a 'not normal infantry model' type shows up in the Unit Type of the Army List Entry it is going to send me to the Unit Types section directly.
Army List Entries [ . . . ]
6. Unit Type: This refers to the unit type rules in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. For example, a unit may be classed as Infantry, Cavalry or Vehicle, which will subject it to a number of rules regarding movement, shooting, assaults, etc.
Are you ready to concede yet?
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
They are not looking for a "not infantry model" they are looking for a "not normal infantry models".
A not normal infantry model is a type of Infantry.
Not normal Infantry models are located in the Characters section of the BRB. They are called IC's.
You have some IC's such as Pask who can be in a tank, some that can purchase bikes. This is where you can find "not normal infantry models".
Unit Types are not Infantry models.
CHARACTER TYPES
Most characters are fielded in units from the start of the game, and represent squad
leaders, such as a Space Marine Veteran Sergeant. They have their own profile, but do not
have a separate entry.
Independent Characters
Some characters have the Independent Character special rule, which allows them to join
other units.
I am glad that you agree that special rules cover the specific models detailed in the BvA description.
Ceann wrote: "or because they are not normal infantry models"
They are not looking for a "not infantry model" they are looking for a "not normal infantry models".
A not normal infantry model is a type of Infantry.
Not normal Infantry models are located in the Characters section of the BRB. They are called IC's.
You have some IC's such as Pask who can be in a tank, some that can purchase bikes. This is where you can find "not normal infantry models".
Unit Types are not Infantry models.
CHARACTER TYPES
Most characters are fielded in units from the start of the game, and represent squad
leaders, such as a Space Marine Veteran Sergeant. They have their own profile, but do not
have a separate entry.
Independent Characters
Some characters have the Independent Character special rule, which allows them to join
other units.
I am glad that you agree that special rules cover the specific models detailed in the BvA description.
Bike, tank, and swarm are provided as examples. So your silly attempt at obfuscation doesn't hold up to simply reading the rules provided.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The BvA rules explicitly tell me to use the Army List Entry and when I do then it directs me explicitly to the Unit Types section.
If a 'not normal infantry model' type shows up in the Unit Type of the Army List Entry such as 'bike' or 'tank' or 'cavalry' it is going to send me to the Unit Types section directly.
Army List Entries [ . . . ]
6. Unit Type: This refers to the unit type rules in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. For example, a unit may be classed as Infantry, Cavalry or Vehicle, which will subject it to a number of rules regarding movement, shooting, assaults, etc.
Are you ready to concede yet?
Seriously, your posts have been nothing but nitpicky silliness and continuing along the same vein is making you just look foolish in my opinion.
Are you ready to concede yet?
Your argument goes against the rules. My argument follows the rules.
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
Ceann wrote: "or because they are not normal infantry models"
They are not looking for a "not infantry model" they are looking for a "not normal infantry models".
A not normal infantry model is a type of Infantry.
Not normal Infantry models are located in the Characters section of the BRB. They are called IC's.
You have some IC's such as Pask who can be in a tank, some that can purchase bikes. This is where you can find "not normal infantry models".
Unit Types are not Infantry models.
CHARACTER TYPES
Most characters are fielded in units from the start of the game, and represent squad
leaders, such as a Space Marine Veteran Sergeant. They have their own profile, but do not
have a separate entry.
Independent Characters
Some characters have the Independent Character special rule, which allows them to join
other units.
I am glad that you agree that special rules cover the specific models detailed in the BvA description.
Bike, tank, and swarm are provided as examples. So your silly attempt at obfuscation doesn't hold up to simply reading the rules provided.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The BvA rules explicitly tell me to use the Army List Entry and when I do then it directs me explicitly to the Unit Types section.
If a 'not normal infantry model' type shows up in the Unit Type of the Army List Entry such as 'bike' or 'tank' or 'cavalry' it is going to send me to the Unit Types section directly.
Army List Entries [ . . . ]
6. Unit Type: This refers to the unit type rules in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. For example, a unit may be classed as Infantry, Cavalry or Vehicle, which will subject it to a number of rules regarding movement, shooting, assaults, etc.
Are you ready to concede yet?
Seriously, your posts have been nothing but nitpicky silliness and continuing along the same vein is making you just look foolish in my opinion.
Are you ready to concede yet?
Your argument goes against the rules. My argument follows the rules.
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
Oh Col,
I can see where you are so confused now, bless your heart.
But don't worry I will help you out.
While I am very proud of you for finally starting to look into the codex for Advanced Rules, just like BvA tells you, we have to make sure we are looking at the right thing when we do so.
1.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have aspecial kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
2.
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.
Ok, now this is going to be hard but I need you to follow along.
FORMING A UNIT
The models that make up your Warhammer 40,000 army must be organized
into ‘units’.
This is from our friend, the Core Rules.
A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together...
So you see statement 1, does not apply to a unit.
Statement 2 applies to a unit.
So the criteria for statement 1, does not apply to statement 2.
You see a model is located in a unit, and a SPECIFIC model, is ONE model in an unit.
So statement 1 only applies to a SPECIFIC model in a unit.
I hope you figured it out now.
Unit Type is not an advanced rule, but I am glad we started looking at a codex now.
I can see where you are so confused now, bless your heart.
But don't worry I will help you out.
While I am very proud of you for finally starting to look into the codex for Advanced Rules, just like BvA tells you, we have to make sure we are looking at the right thing when we do so.
1.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have aspecial kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
2.
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.
Ok, now this is going to be hard but I need you to follow along.
FORMING A UNIT
The models that make up your Warhammer 40,000 army must be organized
into ‘units’.
This is from our friend, the Core Rules.
A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together...
So you see statement 1, does not apply to a unit.
Statement 2 applies to a unit.
So the criteria for statement 1, does not apply to statement 2.
You see a model is located in a unit, and a SPECIFIC model, is ONE model in an unit.
So statement 1 only applies to a SPECIFIC model in a unit.
I hope you figured it out now.
Unit Type is not an advanced rule, but I am glad we started looking at a codex now.
More nitpicky silliness. I guess you haven't leaned your lesson yet. Advanced rules apply to "specific types of models". Plural. Models plural may or may not mean unit. Advanced rules can apply to either since a unit is a collection of models.
You are getting confused about the difference between units and models and are forcing a false dichotomy between the usage of the two when the BRB often interchanges their usage. The topic of Unit Type is a topic that is about models and the unit that comprises those models.
Unit Types
This section explores all the different unit types that describe your models.
In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section.
A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, a tank, a war engine or a rampaging monster, is also considered to be a unit in its own right.
In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model falls into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile, you’ll be able to find that information in the relevant codex or Army List Entry.
In addition to their unit type, some models might also be noted as being characters.
'Unit' and 'model' are used in the appropriate context in the Unit Type section. The Unit Type section freely switches between discussing 'units' and 'models' and is not confined to discussing just models or just units.
Spoiler:
JUMP UNITS
Jump units are equipped with jump packs, wings, teleport devices or other means of moving quickly over short distances. Unlike most other unit type categories, ‘Jump’ is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you’ll find it occurs before another category – commonly Infantry, sometimes Monstrous Creatures and perhaps, rarely, other things. Jump units therefore share two sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.
Jump units can use their jump packs once each turn to move more swiftly in either the Movement phase or the Assault phase – they cannot use their jump packs in both phases in the same turn. If not using its jump pack, a model moves as a normal model of its type. Indeed, a Jump unit can always choose to move as a normal model of their type if they wish. Note that the entire unit must always use the same form of movement. Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
SKYBORNE
When using its jump pack (whether moving, charging or Falling Back, as we’ll discuss in a moment) a model can move over all other models and all terrain freely. However, if the model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test.
Jump models cannot end their move on top of other models and can only end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the models on top of it. If they do this, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain.
MOVEMENT PHASE
If a Jump model uses its jump pack (or equivalent) in the Movement phase, it can move up to 12".
ASSAULT PHASE
If a Jump model uses its jump pack to charge into assault, it can re-roll its chargedistance.
Furthermore, to represent the crushing impact of such a charge, a model that uses its jump pack to charge gains the Hammer of Wrath special rule for the remainder of the turn.
FALL BACK MOVES
Jump units always use their jump packs when Falling Back, and their Fall Back moves are 3D6", even if they already used their jump pack to move that turn.
SPECIAL RULES
Jump units have the Bulky and Deep Strike special rules.
The Unit Type Section is nothing but advanced rules.
Bike, tank, and swarm are provided as examples in the definition of advanced rules.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The BvA rules explicitly tell me to use the Army List Entry and when I do then it directs me explicitly to the Unit Types section.
If a 'not normal infantry model' type shows up in the Unit Type of the Army List Entry such as 'bike' or 'tank' or 'cavalry' it is going to send me to the Unit Types section directly.
Army List Entries [ . . . ]
6. Unit Type: This refers to the unit type rules in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. For example, a unit may be classed as Infantry, Cavalry or Vehicle, which will subject it to a number of rules regarding movement, shooting, assaults, etc.
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
I have given you multiple examples of exactly how the rules work, per the RAW. I have shown you the interaction between the Basic Rules of Unit Types and how Advanced Rules interact with said Basic Rules of Unit Types.
On the other hand, you have shown rubbish when trying to explain the process of Stormrider, even going so far as to call it a codex Special Rule when it is a prime example of Basic versus Advanced scenario explained step by step. Your explanation for Kharn or Kor'sorro would more then likely be more of the same RAI crap.
You know what else is "used in the appropriate content" you just referenced?
SKYBORNE
When using its jump pack (whether moving
MOVEMENT PHASE
If a Jump model uses its jump pack (or equivalent) in the Movement phase
ASSAULT PHASE
If a Jump model uses its jump pack to charge into assault
FALL BACK MOVES
Jump units always use their jump packs when Falling Back, and their Fall Back moves
Move, move, move movement phase, assault phase.
BvA
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise.
Movement is a basic rule, assaulting is a basic rule, Morale is a basic rule.
Yup. All the rules for movement, assault, shooting, and morale in the Core Rules section are basic rules that apply to infantry.
The advanced rules for movement, assault, shooting, and morale that apply to specific types of models are in the other sections of the BRB, most notably the Unit Types section and the Special Rules compendium.
Skyborne isn't in the Core Rules section or the Special Rules compendium and so cannot be a basic rule or a special rule. Skyborne is therefore an advanced rule. And we know this by definition.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brother Ramses wrote: I have given you multiple examples of exactly how the rules work, per the RAW. I have shown you the interaction between the Basic Rules of Unit Types and how Advanced Rules interact with said Basic Rules of Unit Types.
On the other hand, you have shown rubbish when trying to explain the process of Stormrider, even going so far as to call it a codex Special Rule when it is a prime example of Basic versus Advanced scenario explained step by step. Your explanation for Kharn or Kor'sorro would more then likely be more of the same RAI crap.
As long as you keep referring to Chariot basic rules you are violating plainly stated rules.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
Maybe you should post in the Proposed Rules forum?
Ceann wrote: 1.
Yup. All the rules for movement, assault, shooting, and morale in the Core Rules section are basic rules that apply to infantry.
No.
BvA.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise.
It does NOT SAY "Basic rules apply to infantry models in the game" it says ALL the models in the game.
You have formulated this idea in your own that the Core Rules only apply to infantry, This is where you are incorrect.
Indeed. Basic rules apply to all models in the game.
Bike units inherit all the basic rules of movement, assault, shooting, and morale. All models are infantry by default. Infantry is also a basic rule.
The advanced rules in the Unit Types section differentiate the specific unit types from the infantry type by adding advanced rules or overriding the inherited basic rules.
Skyborne is an advanced rule that a jump unit can do but a basic infantry can not. The jump unit still has all the basic rules for movement that infantry can do as presented in the Core Rules section but now has additional advanced rules.
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
1.
All models are infantry by default. Infantry is also a basic rule.
What page states this.
2.
he advanced rules in the Unit Types section differentiate the specific unit types from the infantry type by adding advanced rules or overriding the inherited basic rules.
This is your opinion and not an established fact.
3.
Skyborne is an advanced rule that a jump unit can do but a basic infantry can not. The jump unit still has all the basic rules for movement that infantry can do as presented in the Core Rules section but now has additional advanced rules.
Ceann wrote:I need you to work with me here buddy.
You may need me to work with you, but you aren't doing anything to work with me. You have repeatedly ignored the important aspects of the literal statements provided in the rulebook.
Ceann wrote:1.What is the basic rule for movement?
From "The Turn"
2. Movement phase. Here, you move any of your units that are capable of doing so. See the movement rules for more details of how to do this.
Okay, lets see the movement phase.
Noted under "The Movement Phase"
For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance
Before you bring this up...this statement?
Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase.
Has been preceded by THIS statement "For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move".
You are being told how infantry moves, you are not being told that infantry is the rule, or the standard.
The rule is "In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance." As noted from "The Turn"
I don't know about you but "For the time being" is pretty clear to me.
What unit from Unit Type is breaking these rules?
I have been over it. You did not work with me on this. You have ignored what I have posted.
Where in Movement Distance does it tell you to refer to the unit type to determine the maximum movement distance of a model or unit?
Unlike the Range of the Weapon which tells you to refer to the Weapon's profile, Movement Distance gives a set maximum number of inches to move. It does not tell you to look elsewhere for this distance.
The sections you keep quoting says nothing about a different distances. It is aware of other movement distances, but it does not detail them here, nor inform us as to where to find any additional movement distances.
The only places that actually define different Movement Distances other than 6" is the actual Unit Type rules themselves, and they go out of their way to point them out.
Ceann wrote:2. What is the basic rule for shooting?
From "The Turn"
4. Shooting phase. You now shoot with any of your units that are capable of doing so. See the shooting rules for more details on how to resolve this.
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot , 2. Choose a Target, 3. Select a Weapon, 4. Roll To Hit, 5. Roll To Wound, 6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties, 7. Select Another Weapon
What unit from the Unit Type section is breaking these rules?
Super-Heavies and Gargantuan Creatures to name two. They may choose multiple targets.
If we consider More Than One Weapon we see that Monstrous Creatures, Vehicles, Gargantuan Creatures, and some Bikes breaks this rule.
Brother Ramses wrote:
Charistoph wrote: Advanced Rules are those which differentiate a model from being an Infantry model, among other things.
Wrong.
Kharn the Betrayer is Unit Type Infantry (Character), so he follows all the Basic rules for Unit Type Infantry, just like any other model that has Unit Type Infantry, for the Movement phase, Shooting phase, and Assault phase.
He has a set of Special Rules; Champion of Chaos, Fearless, Furious Charge, IC, Mark of Khorne, Veterans of the Long War.
But wait! In the Assault phase, he has an Advanced rule, The Betrayer, that results in unmodified rolls of one hitting a friendly model in the same unit.
So as I just showed you, Advanced Rules do not differentiate from being an Infantry model. Kharn is still Unit Type Infantry with an Advanced Rule in Assault and a list of Special Rules.
Does Champion of Chaos, Fearless, Furious Charge, IC, Mark of Khorne, and Veteran of the Long War come from him being an Infantry model?
Do all Infantry models come with these rules?
Here is what Basic vs Advanced says regarding advanced rules:
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Three of those apply to Kharn at all times. He has a special kind of Weapon (Gorehowl), he has unusual skills (as you listed above), and because he is a Character, he is not a normal infantry model.
If he joins another unit by virtue of one of his unusual skills (IC), he is different from his fellows because he is a Character.
Sure sounds like everything but his Infantry unit type counts as an advanced rule per the quoted line which defines it.
Ceann wrote:I need you to work with me here buddy.
You may need me to work with you, but you aren't doing anything to work with me. You have repeatedly ignored the important aspects of the literal statements provided in the rulebook.
Ceann wrote:1.What is the basic rule for movement?
From "The Turn"
2. Movement phase. Here, you move any of your units that are capable of doing so. See the movement rules for more details of how to do this.
Okay, lets see the movement phase.
Noted under "The Movement Phase"
For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance
Before you bring this up...this statement?
Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase.
Has been preceded by THIS statement "For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move".
You are being told how infantry moves, you are not being told that infantry is the rule, or the standard.
The rule is "In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance." As noted from "The Turn"
I don't know about you but "For the time being" is pretty clear to me.
What unit from Unit Type is breaking these rules?
I have been over it. You did not work with me on this. You have ignored what I have posted.
Where in Movement Distance does it tell you to refer to the unit type to determine the maximum movement distance of a model or unit?
Unlike the Range of the Weapon which tells you to refer to the Weapon's profile, Movement Distance gives a set maximum number of inches to move. It does not tell you to look elsewhere for this distance.
The sections you keep quoting says nothing about a different distances. It is aware of other movement distances, but it does not detail them here, nor inform us as to where to find any additional movement distances.
The only places that actually define different Movement Distances other than 6" is the actual Unit Type rules themselves, and they go out of their way to point them out.
Ceann wrote:2. What is the basic rule for shooting?
From "The Turn"
4. Shooting phase. You now shoot with any of your units that are capable of doing so. See the shooting rules for more details on how to resolve this.
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot , 2. Choose a Target, 3. Select a Weapon, 4. Roll To Hit, 5. Roll To Wound, 6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties, 7. Select Another Weapon
What unit from the Unit Type section is breaking these rules?
Super-Heavies and Gargantuan Creatures to name two. They may choose multiple targets.
If we consider More Than One Weapon we see that Monstrous Creatures, Vehicles, Gargantuan Creatures, and some Bikes breaks this rule.
Brother Ramses wrote:
Charistoph wrote: Advanced Rules are those which differentiate a model from being an Infantry model, among other things.
Wrong.
Kharn the Betrayer is Unit Type Infantry (Character), so he follows all the Basic rules for Unit Type Infantry, just like any other model that has Unit Type Infantry, for the Movement phase, Shooting phase, and Assault phase.
He has a set of Special Rules; Champion of Chaos, Fearless, Furious Charge, IC, Mark of Khorne, Veterans of the Long War.
But wait! In the Assault phase, he has an Advanced rule, The Betrayer, that results in unmodified rolls of one hitting a friendly model in the same unit.
So as I just showed you, Advanced Rules do not differentiate from being an Infantry model. Kharn is still Unit Type Infantry with an Advanced Rule in Assault and a list of Special Rules.
Does Champion of Chaos, Fearless, Furious Charge, IC, Mark of Khorne, and Veteran of the Long War come from him being an Infantry model?
Do all Infantry models come with these rules?
Here is what Basic vs Advanced says regarding advanced rules:
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Three of those apply to Kharn at all times. He has a special kind of Weapon (Gorehowl), he has unusual skills (as you listed above), and because he is a Character, he is not a normal infantry model.
If he joins another unit by virtue of one of his unusual skills (IC), he is different from his fellows because he is a Character.
Sure sounds like everything but his Infantry unit type counts as an advanced rule per the quoted line which defines it.
So, quit cherry-picking you two.
The entire idea for what advanced rules are, is based on this house of cards predicated upon the fact that you all assume Infantry to be a STANDARD and not the example used to explain the rules.
Show me where Infantry is the STANDARD.
Advanced rules applying to SPECIFIC MODELS is because those models have SPECIAL RULES. Not because they use BASIC RULES differently.
Ceann wrote:1.All models are infantry by default. Infantry is also a basic rule.
What page states this.
I cannot give you a page number as I haven't had the DTV since last summer.
But try the definition of advanced rules, the introduction to unit types, and the rules under Infantry in unit types for a starter.
Though, I do not agree with the "all models are infantry by default" line. The Core Game rules are operating under the assumption that any model being addressed therein is Infantry. That's as close as it gets.
Ceann wrote:2.the advanced rules in the Unit Types section differentiate the specific unit types from the infantry type by adding advanced rules or overriding the inherited basic rules.
This is your opinion and not an established fact.
That actually is established fact by virtue of the definition of advanced rules that you won't recognize for some reason.
Ceann wrote:3. Skyborne is an advanced rule that a jump unit can do but a basic infantry can not. The jump unit still has all the basic rules for movement that infantry can do as presented in the Core Rules section but now has additional advanced rules.
What page states this.
The page that details Basic vs Advanced, and the entire Movement Phase section. If you think Skyborne is not an advanced rule, where is it in the Movement Phase section of the rulebook?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote: The entire idea for what advanced rules are, is based on this house of cards predicated upon the fact that you all assume Infantry to be a STANDARD and not the example used to explain the rules.
Show me where Infantry is the STANDARD.
I have shown you, in several places, and many times. You have done nothing to gainsay these quotes. You have not demonstrated I have misquoted them. Therefore, the only error that can be involved is yours. You are fighting against the pricks of the rulebook and complaining about us. I even color-coded the definition of advanced rules to help you recognize the conditions better.
As you read through the rules, you will notice some of the text is bold, like this. This highlights the most important elements of the rule in question and helps bring it to your
eyes when skimming a page.
I will point out bolded statements further along.
1.
Core Rules
This section explains how to fight battles with your army of Citadel miniatures in the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium.
Explains HOW to fight battles and no mention of Infantry being a standard.
2.
Unit Types
This section explores all the different unit types that describe your models. From footslogging infantry and rampaging monstrous creatures to armored battle tanks and
supersonic flyers, this section lists all the special rules that apply to these models.
The first unit type it mentions is Infantry, in the Unit Types section.
3.
For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.
BOLDED
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
It plainly states, ""For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move...." and the others " will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section" You are being EXPLAINED Infantry, not told a standard. Everyone takes this being EXPLAINED as the standard, for no reason. The bolded, most IMPORTANT element of the movement phase, is MAXIMUM distance, if Infantry were the standard, maximum distance would not be the most important element.
Ceann wrote: 1.
All models are infantry by default. Infantry is also a basic rule.
What page states this.
These rules.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
[At the ending of the Core Rules section] So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game.
Ceann wrote: 2.
he advanced rules in the Unit Types section differentiate the specific unit types from the infantry type by adding advanced rules or overriding the inherited basic rules.
This is your opinion and not an established fact.
Nope. It's a paraphrase of the definition.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
And this rule.
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
Ceann wrote: 3.
Skyborne is an advanced rule that a jump unit can do but a basic infantry can not. The jump unit still has all the basic rules for movement that infantry can do as presented in the Core Rules section but now has additional advanced rules.
What page states this.
It's a paraphrase of these two rules.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Let's face it Ceann. The rules disagree with your argument and they support mine.
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
Ceann wrote:I need you to work with me here buddy.
You may need me to work with you, but you aren't doing anything to work with me. You have repeatedly ignored the important aspects of the literal statements provided in the rulebook.
Ceann wrote:1.What is the basic rule for movement?
From "The Turn"
2. Movement phase. Here, you move any of your units that are capable of doing so. See the movement rules for more details of how to do this.
Okay, lets see the movement phase.
Noted under "The Movement Phase"
For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance
Before you bring this up...this statement?
Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase.
Has been preceded by THIS statement "For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move".
You are being told how infantry moves, you are not being told that infantry is the rule, or the standard.
The rule is "In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance." As noted from "The Turn"
I don't know about you but "For the time being" is pretty clear to me.
What unit from Unit Type is breaking these rules?
I have been over it. You did not work with me on this. You have ignored what I have posted.
Where in Movement Distance does it tell you to refer to the unit type to determine the maximum movement distance of a model or unit?
Unlike the Range of the Weapon which tells you to refer to the Weapon's profile, Movement Distance gives a set maximum number of inches to move. It does not tell you to look elsewhere for this distance.
The sections you keep quoting says nothing about a different distances. It is aware of other movement distances, but it does not detail them here, nor inform us as to where to find any additional movement distances.
The only places that actually define different Movement Distances other than 6" is the actual Unit Type rules themselves, and they go out of their way to point them out.
Ceann wrote:2. What is the basic rule for shooting?
From "The Turn"
4. Shooting phase. You now shoot with any of your units that are capable of doing so. See the shooting rules for more details on how to resolve this.
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot , 2. Choose a Target, 3. Select a Weapon, 4. Roll To Hit, 5. Roll To Wound, 6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties, 7. Select Another Weapon
What unit from the Unit Type section is breaking these rules?
Super-Heavies and Gargantuan Creatures to name two. They may choose multiple targets.
If we consider More Than One Weapon we see that Monstrous Creatures, Vehicles, Gargantuan Creatures, and some Bikes breaks this rule.
Brother Ramses wrote:
Charistoph wrote: Advanced Rules are those which differentiate a model from being an Infantry model, among other things.
Wrong.
Kharn the Betrayer is Unit Type Infantry (Character), so he follows all the Basic rules for Unit Type Infantry, just like any other model that has Unit Type Infantry, for the Movement phase, Shooting phase, and Assault phase.
He has a set of Special Rules; Champion of Chaos, Fearless, Furious Charge, IC, Mark of Khorne, Veterans of the Long War.
But wait! In the Assault phase, he has an Advanced rule, The Betrayer, that results in unmodified rolls of one hitting a friendly model in the same unit.
So as I just showed you, Advanced Rules do not differentiate from being an Infantry model. Kharn is still Unit Type Infantry with an Advanced Rule in Assault and a list of Special Rules.
Does Champion of Chaos, Fearless, Furious Charge, IC, Mark of Khorne, and Veteran of the Long War come from him being an Infantry model?
Do all Infantry models come with these rules?
Here is what Basic vs Advanced says regarding advanced rules:
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Three of those apply to Kharn at all times. He has a special kind of Weapon (Gorehowl), he has unusual skills (as you listed above), and because he is a Character, he is not a normal infantry model.
If he joins another unit by virtue of one of his unusual skills (IC), he is different from his fellows because he is a Character.
Sure sounds like everything but his Infantry unit type counts as an advanced rule per the quoted line which defines it.
So, quit cherry-picking you two.
The entire idea for what advanced rules are, is based on this house of cards predicated upon the fact that you all assume Infantry to be a STANDARD and not the example used to explain the rules.
Show me where Infantry is the STANDARD.
Advanced rules applying to SPECIFIC MODELS is because those models have SPECIAL RULES. Not because they use BASIC RULES differently.
You said that Advanced Rules differentiate a model from being an Infantry model, but Kharn remains an Infantry model despite having the Advanced Rule of The Betrayer so apparently you are wrong. So he still uses the Basic Rules for Unit Type Infantry in the Movement phase and in the Shooting phase, but has an Advanced rule for the Assault phase.
But, this entire time you and col_impact have been saying that Unit Type Infantry is the Basic Rule while all other Unit Types are Advanced Rules. Kharn is an example of Unit Type Infantry that has an Advanced Rule for the Assault Phase which actually is supported by the RAW scenarios I have given you for Stormrider, Sammael, Kharn, and Kor'sorro.
.
