I had a chance to review the leaked Tau 8th edition codex last night and was quite surprised by what I saw in some areas.
After rebuilding my 7th edition 1850 point list using the 8th edition costs I pretty much walked away with the same army in terms of models - minus my 2 riptides. Infantry and drones are relatively inexpensive, but suits with even the most basic war-gear selections have sky rocketed in price. However, I'm not too worried based on the leaks for other armies as it seems vehicles and monstrous creatures across the board share this same fate. I'm curious to see if this will impact the point size of games we will be playing. Will players be moving to 2000 point armies as the tournament standard or will we be playing games with fewer models (big nasty creatures/vehicles just being slightly more rare than before)? I definitely think it won't be such any easy choice anymore to just throw as many riptides into an army as possible because while durable, guns that do multiple points of damage will now be able to shred them with focused fire. I'm actually happy my riptides don't fit in my first draft of my Tau 8th edition force as I really only included them so that I could remain competitive.
Significant changes:
- Free Shas'vre upgrades
- Free bonding knives
- Drones are no longer part of the unit that purchased them so marker drones can benefit their owners too
- Cheaper drones
- Crisis suit min squad size is 3 (from 1) - no more suicide fusion blasters
- Broadsides can only take 2 missile drones per squad (from 2 per suit)
- Suits cost a lot more: riptide with ion accelerator is roughly 360 pts, broadside 180 pts, xv8 with 2x missile pod is 90 pts
- Suits got a lot more durable
- Many more shots per suit due to twin-linked changes (but we pay for it)
- Universal split fire means target lock no longer needs to be spammed (return of the fireknives is viable for those old school Tau players)
Overall I think these changes may influence the game by us seeing less reliance on the larger suits. Savior protocol and loss of JSJ means that crisis heavy armies are definitely going to want drones (especially now that they are cheaper). Marker drones are now quite viable with the cheaper drone controllers and the fact that they support the units that bought them. I actually think you could argue that pathfinders, while better value than marker drones, are now more list dependent. I believe movement is going to play a larger role in this edition with many vehicles (transports) surviving past turn 2. Those pathfinders may find themselves cut off and/or charged more frequently.
The changes to split-fire, min squad size, and weapon/support system costs mean that we lose some of the standard crisis suit profiles. Single suits with 2x fusion blasters or 2x missile pods are gone. A suit with 1x burst cannon, 1x flamer now costs 61 points - so you'd be better off with 8x fire warriors for an additional 3 points. The most effective configurations are going to be some combination of missile pods, fusion blasters, and plasma rifles. I also think that running 3 weapons per suit may not be viable as it just ties up too many points. I'd be interested to see if any players are planning on mixing weapons on individual suits.
I was disappointed to see sniper drones once again over costed or rather under-gunned. With no AP on their rifles, they are basically a fire warrior with less range, but over twice the cost. You'd be better off just taking a bunch of gun drones for their volume of shots.
I'd love to here other player's opinions on the leaks.
Target lock boosts your BS by 1 if you fire all weapons on a single unit.
since target lock is bought per model, I think this also applies for each individual model.
--> for very little points you can boost Crisis BS to 3+ while still being able to split the fire of your suits.
Aeri wrote: Target lock boosts your BS by 1 if you fire all weapons on a single unit.
since target lock is bought per model, I think this also applies for each individual model.
--> for very little points you can boost Crisis BS to 3+ while still being able to split the fire of your suits.
That is not at all what target lock does.
Target lock: A model with target lock does not suffer the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons, or for advancing and firing assault weapons. The model can also advance and fire rapid fire weapons, but must subtract 1 from its to hit rolls when doing.
- Basically really only applies if you plan on advancing each movement phase. The points quickly add up considering that you wont advance every turn.
I think you may be confusing it with the Multi-tracker which only lets you re-roll to hits of 1 if firing all weapons at the same target.
On an unrelated notes, I'm also starting to realize that markerlights are nowhere near as good as they used to be as only the 4-5 bonus make a significant impact. With most Marker lights sitting at BS 4+ you'd need to fire an average of 10 lights on a unit to gain any sort BS bonus against it. What are the chances that that many markerlights would have LoS on the same target? You'd probably need to have about 20 markerlights in your army to reliably confer the 5 light bonus (considering they will be spread out and taking losses throughout the game). You are better off just buying units that can actually pump out damage.
For some reason I seem to be missing the page for standard FW. But if a Shas is free and the ML is only a minimal cost and the target lock is now army wide, that's a saving of 12 pts from last edition. And if troops are the now necessary unit of choice there's 6 minimal cost markerlights.
And you don't lose firepower because that FW can fire both his markerlight and his rifle at the same target.
AndrewC wrote: For some reason I seem to be missing the page for standard FW. But if a Shas is free and the ML is only a minimal cost and the target lock is now army wide, that's a saving of 12 pts from last edition. And if troops are the now necessary unit of choice there's 6 minimal cost markerlights.
And you don't lose firepower because that FW can fire both his markerlight and his rifle at the same target.
Cheers
Andrew
Very true, but that is under the assumption that your detachment supports 6 troops. Many players (myself included) will be using vanguard detachment for the elite slots as it doesn't look like Farsight enclave rules really exist anymore. If you are going with a suit heavy force you could just give everything a super cheap multi-tracker (so everything basically has the 1 markerlight bonus) and then just dump the saved points into gun drones/weapon systems.
Personally I think the loss of JSJ is massive, 95% of my army made use of it, and the fact that none of the shorter range weapons were improved means that instead of dancing at the edge of charge ranges, they're going to get charged. Especially with the increase speed on a lot of melee units.
Marker lights got a massive downgrade, and from what I can tell nothing really improved. The majority of the less great units got side grades, not upgrades.
Overall I'm really disappointed. The things that needed to be toned down got hammered hard, while things that could have easily been left alone were also made worse.
I see they did next to nothing to improve tanks. Hammerhead/Sky Ray is LESS durable than Riptide. Stealth Suits continue to be lame. And no JSJ - yep, I need not to bother with this edition.
Regading markerlights:
Markerlights got nerfed hard.
Getting 10 ML shots out is pretty cheap though, pathfinders are 5pts a piece, half the cost in previous editions. They can vanguard (scout move) up into cover and they will never leave it.
My issue with MLs is that there are character effects and wargear that make almost each step of the markerlight chart redundant.
Regarding Crisis suits
We can make our own interceptor marines, with two BCs and an advanced targeting array.
Missile pods are extortionate, they are better off as HYMPs on Broadsides.
Fusion suits took a hard hit from the minimum squad size rules.
Plasma rifles look to be the best, cheap option on crisis suits. Good for hunting power armoured infantry, they are cheap at 11pts and gain a lot from the advanced targeting system.
They got buffs to thier wounds and a significant movement increase.
I think they take the anti-heavy infantry role now.
Regarding Fire Warriors
They are cheap, cheap bodies. For 96 pts you get some of the best core infantry in the game. They hunker down in cover and get a 3+ armour save Its probably worth getting the DS8 with a SMS.
I think they will be even more static than before, given the way saves work and the cost of a devilfish.
The Shas'ui is free and the bonding knife upgrade stops entire units from fleeing on a bad day, these are both pretty meh to me, I never took either.
Regarding Broadsides:
Someone in the playtesting team really didnt like Broadsides. A 3.5x cost increase for a fully-loaded broadside battlesuit is insane. However, they are now essentially monstrous creatures and have a fair amount of durability with W5 and T5.
The HYMP vs HRR argument will start at some point, there is good reason to take either.
A pair of plasma rifles is now cheaper than a SMS, so are worth adding just to reduce the costs.
I sincerely doubt anyone will run these in full squads, ~725pts is debilitatingly expensive.
Regarding Vespid:
Vespid are better!
Vespid might be the new choice instead of crisis suits for cost-damage output. They are cheap, T4 and fast.
They still wont see the table because thier models are still in finecast.
Regarding Named Characters:
Darkstrider is interesting, the others, non battlesuit characters are terrible.
Farsight and Shadowsun are both better field commanders.
The double Kauyon is woth Shadowsuns cost alone.
Regarding Stealthsuits:
A stealthsuit in cover is almost a Terminator with a burst cannon.
The ATS makes them better than a heavy bolter.
Regarding Hammerheads:
Longstrike is necesary for railheads to work at all.
Heck, Longstrike makes Hammerheads work better in general thanks to Fire Caste Exemplar.
Regarding flyers:
The Sunshark bomber actually has a good bombing system now! It can proabably do double-duty as a strike fighter rather than whatever it was before.
I think the rules in general are reducing access to large quantities of powerful equiptment and to durable carriers. The land raider went up, leman russes went up, hammerheads went up, broadsides and riptides went up. Suck it, everyone is reajusting.
One thing that Tau are now missing, is that key coordination and synergy that made Tau so playable in previous editions.
Certain elements of the core rules appear to favour Tau, until you realise that any unit that survives a round of the fight phase is essentially dead anyway to morale.
Yeah, the Tau are built on synergy, parts working together to make something better than the sum of the parts... But there is a whole lot of redundancy...
Character special abilities, wargear, and markerlights all overlap in giving rerolls of one and the ability to advance and shoot without penalty.
As for the primaries intercepter Marines... It's somewhat annoying that they're basically better burst cannon Crisis suits.
Hammerhead's price hike was pretty small, so they are quite viable now!
And I don't think cadre fireblades are that bad. A BS2+ ML and making people around it fire 1 extra shot at half range (even if moving) seems quite cool. He's pretty cheap!
Martel732 wrote: "One thing that Tau are now missing, is that key coordination and synergy that made Tau so playable in previous editions. "
You left out immortal suits. And cheap mass interceptor. And at-will access to ignore cover. And AP2 on weapons that had no business with AP2.
You know... I've seen you post nothing but complaints about Tau for years. If you actually look at the thread, has anyone asked for... Any of those things?
No, but it's what made Tau the biggest bully list for two editions.
Given that they killed Death stars completely, and gutted psykers, I still think you guys are better off than you think.
As for the complaints, there was no way the Riptide could have been considered remotely a fair unit by an objective observer. The bottom line is that nasty units cost a lot in 8th ed. As they should. But some armies are used to getting nasty units on a dime.
Martel732 wrote: "One thing that Tau are now missing, is that key coordination and synergy that made Tau so playable in previous editions. "
You left out immortal suits. And cheap mass interceptor. And at-will access to ignore cover. And AP2 on weapons that had no business with AP2.
Wondered if you were still around.
- Crisis were T4 W2 3+; far from unkillable.
- Ghostkeels had too much good cover save and Riptide (which are now T7 2+/5++ with 3++ Nova still around, mind you) were undercosted. Both had been addressed.
- Interceptor is still cheap and plentiful, but only at 12" now (doesn't stop the firer from shooting again during the next shooting phase).
- Ignore cover was 2ML; this is not at-will. Now requires 3MLs, but cover is much less important now, so whatever.
- Which weapons had no business being AP2? Ion Accelerator? It still is. Lol.
Dude, the only point you ever had was Riptide being undercosted.
Martel732 wrote: No, but it's what made Tau the biggest bully list for two editions.
Given that they killed Death stars completely¹, and gutted psykers², I still think you guys are better off than you think.
1- And now deathstars don't even exist - they were a worse plague to the game than Tau big suits. Tau 'bullied' FLGS games, while Daemons, Eldar and SM were the real winners at tournaments.
2- How? We had 1 item that let us DtW at 4+ against 2 kinds of powers, when we know Blessings and Summoning were much better (and deniable only at 6+)
Seriously, Martel, you should try to enjoy BA leaks. Are they good?
If you say so. The Tau were pure cheese for a long time that could only be beaten by using Eldar or horrible IoM death star shenanigans.
Stormsurge needed to eat mass nerfs too.
"Are they good?"
Not really. We're still the have-not marines. But I might be able to snatch a few games if I've got models on the table past turn 3. BA are the new DA. Whatever.
" they were a worse plague to the game than Tau big suits."
I'll say they were both equally terrible in different ways. If I piled on enough frag cannons, sometimes i could get lucky vs death stars. Riptides? I had NOTHING. NOTHING.
First of all, let's not forget that this is only a placeholder codex and we need to treat it as such. At some point (allegedly in the near future) we will get a fully fledged release with more in-depth rules, so let's make the best of what we've got until then:
- Photon grenades haven't been mentioned much, but I think they might be the silent gem of our list. -1 to hit for enemy infantry in both melee and ranged combat is a huge boon. The range, conveniently, is 12" which is also the maximum charge range.
- Tactical Drones are 8 point ablative wounds that can be moved independently and shifted wherever they are needed. The 2 Tactical Drones that come with our infantry can effectively deny charges into our more important units.
For 80 points, a squad of 10 gun drones next to a Fire Warriors squad that is being charged will first deliver 40 shots due to overwatch and then absorb 10 wounds in the ensuing melee.
- That is, if the enemy even gets there. How about pulling a Grav-Inhibitor drone from a nearby Pathfinder squad into position to strip D3 inches of charge distance from your opponent? Same goes for the Pulse Accelerator Drone - keep them close to your Firewarriors and enjoy a range of 36" and 18" Rapid fire
- If they make it into melee, the combination of drone ablative wounds and photon grenade will help a great deal. But what about morale tests? Ethereals got us covered. LD9 for our troops and "Calm of Tides" will help cut those losses. Oh, and we have free bonding Knives now which means that we ignore rolls of 6 altogether.
- Now, assuming a reasonable amount of models is still alive after all that, we can fall back in the next movement phase. "Sadly our infantry won't be able to shoot in the same turn" you say? Let me introduce you to Darkstrider. Not only will he let our unit shoot in the same turn, but he'll also let one of our units hit the enemy at -2T.
If everything went according to plan, the enemy unit is exposed, has -2T and is in rapid fire range: Time to Kauyon all over them!
DaemonJellybaby wrote: Regading markerlights:
Markerlights got nerfed hard.
Getting 10 ML shots out is pretty cheap though, pathfinders are 5pts a piece, half the cost in previous editions.
The pathfinders actually cost 8 since that 5 is a base cost that doesn't include the markerlight.
Aeri wrote: Target lock boosts your BS by 1 if you fire all weapons on a single unit.
since target lock is bought per model, I think this also applies for each individual model.
--> for very little points you can boost Crisis BS to 3+ while still being able to split the fire of your suits.
That is not at all what target lock does.
Target lock: A model with target lock does not suffer the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons, or for advancing and firing assault weapons. The model can also advance and fire rapid fire weapons, but must subtract 1 from its to hit rolls when doing.
- Basically really only applies if you plan on advancing each movement phase. The points quickly add up considering that you wont advance every turn.
I think you may be confusing it with the Multi-tracker which only lets you re-roll to hits of 1 if firing all weapons at the same target.
On an unrelated notes, I'm also starting to realize that markerlights are nowhere near as good as they used to be as only the 4-5 bonus make a significant impact. With most Marker lights sitting at BS 4+ you'd need to fire an average of 10 lights on a unit to gain any sort BS bonus against it. What are the chances that that many markerlights would have LoS on the same target? You'd probably need to have about 20 markerlights in your army to reliably confer the 5 light bonus (considering they will be spread out and taking losses throughout the game). You are better off just buying units that can actually pump out damage.
Well given that A unit of 10 pathfinders will cost about 80 points noto to bad.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Broadsides fully loaded will cost 165 with HRR and 2 Plasma rifles. Which is pretty devastating to just about anything espically if you put ATS on them AP -5? You negate 2+ armor saves entirely? T5 W5 and you can have drones take the hits? 2+ armor save? Tau are going to be the only army capable of wound shenanigans. What are you guys whining about?
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Broadsides fully loaded will cost 165 with HRR and 2 Plasma rifles. Which is pretty devastating to just about anything espically if you put ATS on them AP -5? You negate 2+ armor saves entirely? T5 W5 and you can have drones take the hits? 2+ armor save? Tau are going to be the only army capable of wound shenanigans. What are you guys whining about?
I personally don't mind the changes to the broadsides. I will be fielding 2 with HRR. I just wish we could include more missile drones, but to compensate the savior protocols I'll probably have a 4 man tactical gun drone squad nearby.
I personally don't mind the changes to the broadsides. I will be fielding 2 with HRR. I just wish we could include more missile drones, but to compensate the savior protocols I'll probably have a 4 man tactical gun drone squad nearby.
Probably the biggest thing to remember is to keep yoir drones in cover so they get the +1 to thier armor save all the time. But the fact that I can shoot 4 lascannons at a Riptide and end up killing 1 gun drone is pretty big.
I have always prefered HRR and Plasma Rifle setup. Very anti everything but heavy tanks and hordes. But now 6 shots at 12" is pretty scary espically when you cant just hit the thing with a couple big guns. Personally ill probably run 2 shield drones to negate the AP that is going to be thrown at it.
- Ghostkeels had too much good cover save and Riptide (which are now T7 2+/5++ with 3++ Nova still around, mind you) were undercosted. Both had been addressed. - Interceptor is still cheap and plentiful, but only at 12" now (doesn't stop the firer from shooting again during the next shooting phase). - Ignore cover was 2ML; this is not at-will. Now requires 3MLs, but cover is much less important now, so whatever. - Which weapons had no business being AP2? Ion Accelerator? It still is. Lol.
Dude, the only point you ever had was Riptide being undercosted.
Riptide was not undercosted, it was plain stupid. There is no reason why a battlesuit should be nearly immune to most weapons in the game and have more mobility and firepower than a tank. NONE of this has been addressed. Compare it to Hammerhead - Riptide is more durable, just as mobile and has more firepower. There is no defensible reason why a battlesuit should be more durable than a freaking TANK.
- Ghostkeels had too much good cover save and Riptide (which are now T7 2+/5++ with 3++ Nova still around, mind you) were undercosted. Both had been addressed.
- Interceptor is still cheap and plentiful, but only at 12" now (doesn't stop the firer from shooting again during the next shooting phase).
- Ignore cover was 2ML; this is not at-will. Now requires 3MLs, but cover is much less important now, so whatever.
- Which weapons had no business being AP2? Ion Accelerator? It still is. Lol.
Dude, the only point you ever had was Riptide being undercosted.
Riptide was not undercosted, it was plain stupid. There is no reason why a battlesuit should be nearly immune to most weapons in the game and have more mobility and firepower than a tank. NONE of this has been addressed. Compare it to Hammerhead - Riptide is more durable, just as mobile and has more firepower.
There is no defensible reason why a battlesuit should be more durable than a freaking TANK.
Undercosting was indeed the problem with Riptides. The main issue most people had was facing 2+ of them at 1500 points. And I don't really understand your problem with riptides being durable for the correct points costs, there are plenty of MCs that are just as tough, if not tougher. And if your problem is JUST due to it being a battlesuit, then that's a personal opinion
Is somebody else also planning on trying pulse carbines instead of pulse rifles on FW? I think I ll try it. Like the look of the gun much better and my models are magnetized anyways. Sure you have nearly half the range, but with assault armies being buffed I don't think that range will be such a big problem. They'll come to you :p. But the capability to run and shoot (BF-1) will help to keep my FW out of melee range as long as possible. What do you think? Pulse carbine finally worth it on FW?
I personally don't mind the changes to the broadsides. I will be fielding 2 with HRR. I just wish we could include more missile drones, but to compensate the savior protocols I'll probably have a 4 man tactical gun drone squad nearby.
Probably the biggest thing to remember is to keep yoir drones in cover so they get the +1 to thier armor save all the time. But the fact that I can shoot 4 lascannons at a Riptide and end up killing 1 gun drone is pretty big.
I have always prefered HRR and Plasma Rifle setup. Very anti everything but heavy tanks and hordes. But now 6 shots at 12" is pretty scary espically when you cant just hit the thing with a couple big guns. Personally ill probably run 2 shield drones to negate the AP that is going to be thrown at it.
The problem with HRR/Plasma build is that plasma are only 24". It realistically will do only 2 shots at maximum range until something comes nearby. Broadsides don't have the Fly keyword, so they don't get to shoot after leaving melee. 24" is a very dangerous range now!
Riptide was not undercosted, it was plain stupid. There is no reason why a battlesuit should be nearly immune to most weapons in the game and have more mobility and firepower than a tank. NONE of this has been addressed. Compare it to Hammerhead - Riptide is more durable, just as mobile and has more firepower. There is no defensible reason why a battlesuit should be more durable than a freaking TANK.
Undercosting was indeed the problem with Riptides. The main issue most people had was facing 2+ of them at 1500 points. And I don't really understand your problem with riptides being durable for the correct points costs, there are plenty of MCs that are just as tough, if not tougher.
Which is exactly the problem. Modelling of the units needs to make sense at least on some level. Units like Riptide break it and make it look like large mecha suits are artificially buffed so that people would buy and play them, instead of tanks. Now, if you want people to play large battlesuits, give them some other options which make them distinct from tanks - tactical flexibility, better close combat, so on. Don't make them super-tanks which out-tank the actual tanks.
MasterOfGaunts wrote: Is somebody else also planning on trying pulse carbines instead of pulse rifles on FW? I think I ll try it. Like the look of the gun much better and my models are magnetized anyways. Sure you have nearly half the range, but with assault armies being buffed I don't think that range will be such a big problem. They'll come to you :p. But the capability to run and shoot (BF-1) will help to keep my FW out of melee range as long as possible. What do you think? Pulse carbine finally worth it on FW?
Anyone else gonna put nonstandard stuff on their Crisis suits? Ion Cannons? Rail Rifles? Ion Accelerators?
MasterOfGaunts wrote: Is somebody else also planning on trying pulse carbines instead of pulse rifles on FW? I think I ll try it. Like the look of the gun much better and my models are magnetized anyways. Sure you have nearly half the range, but with assault armies being buffed I don't think that range will be such a big problem. They'll come to you :p. But the capability to run and shoot (BF-1) will help to keep my FW out of melee range as long as possible. What do you think? Pulse carbine finally worth it on FW?
Anyone else gonna put nonstandard stuff on their Crisis suits? Ion Cannons? Rail Rifles? Ion Accelerators?
No, because we cannot. There's a page with a yellow Commander that has the list of things available to Commanders and Crisis
XV8's got so expensive now it's scary. Went from 52 ppm with dual MP to 80. Sure, the extra W and T is nice, but it seems odd that with the loss of JSJ the prices went up so much. I think we're going to be seeing an infantry heavy focus in the future because every gun can hurt everything. The mighty pulse rifle will wound everything on no worse than a 5+, and only costs 8 points with the fire warrior body.
Mulletdude wrote: XV8's got so expensive now it's scary. Went from 52 ppm with dual MP to 80. Sure, the extra W and T is nice, but it seems odd that with the loss of JSJ the prices went up so much. I think we're going to be seeing an infantry heavy focus in the future because every gun can hurt everything. The mighty pulse rifle will wound everything on no worse than a 5+, and only costs 8 points with the fire warrior body.
The other thing Crisis/Stealth suits have is the ability to leave combat at will and still shoot, which is kinda huge.
That's assuming they survive, though. And surviving combat has never been something they've been capable of doing against my opponents whenever they get caught. And with many melee weapons doing multiple wounds now, that extra wound is often going to be going to waste.
MasterOfGaunts wrote: Is somebody else also planning on trying pulse carbines instead of pulse rifles on FW? I think I ll try it. Like the look of the gun much better and my models are magnetized anyways. Sure you have nearly half the range, but with assault armies being buffed I don't think that range will be such a big problem. They'll come to you :p. But the capability to run and shoot (BF-1) will help to keep my FW out of melee range as long as possible. What do you think? Pulse carbine finally worth it on FW?
Anyone else gonna put nonstandard stuff on their Crisis suits? Ion Cannons? Rail Rifles? Ion Accelerators?
No, because we cannot. There's a page with a yellow Commander that has the list of things available to Commanders and Crisis
Seems there's a few places on the board having these discussions for Tau... there's a thread on the tactics board where people are spitballing ideas too.
I'll say here what I said there though: I don't think the changes to marker lights are that bad. Their transition back to army wide buffs against a targeted unit rather than tokens to spend on individual shooting attacks means you only really lose the BS stacking. Yeah, 5 lights to buff BS once is a little rough, but that buff goes to everyone shooting at that target, meaning you can pop off the one weapon of a unit otherwise focussing on something else without worry.
I also looks to me that the effect of drone controllers appear to stack. Meaning you can have your marker lights delivered by 2+ shooting drones with three attendant crisis suits. If not, and you can only buff them to a 4+ shot, I still don't think it will be that hard to land enough marker lights.
Martel732 wrote: No, but it's what made Tau the biggest bully list for two editions.
Given that they killed Death stars completely¹, and gutted psykers², I still think you guys are better off than you think.
1- And now deathstars don't even exist - they were a worse plague to the game than Tau big suits. Tau 'bullied' FLGS games, while Daemons, Eldar and SM were the real winners at tournaments.
2- How? We had 1 item that let us DtW at 4+ against 2 kinds of powers, when we know Blessings and Summoning were much better (and deniable only at 6+)
I think you misunderstood. He's not saying Tau stomped those things, he's saying GW did with the edition change.
DaemonJellybaby wrote: Vespid are better!
Vespid might be the new choice instead of crisis suits for cost-damage output. They are cheap, T4 and fast.
They still wont see the table because thier models are still in finecast.
Sounds like a prime kitbashing opportunity though. Take Eldar or some kind of fantasy model, add bits from the breacher/striker squad you opted not to build, add some kind of jet pack, instant alien auxiliaries.
davethepak wrote: Personally, I do NOT like the new marker rules - depending on your army mix, half the results are useless, and you need five of them for a +1 BS
Also....is the "Jet Pack" keyword defined ANYWHERE?
I can't find it in the core rules either.
I suspect since they bothered to list jet pack, we may have not lost JSJ....
(there are several that are not defined, jet pack, biker, etc.).
All of those will show up in their appropriate codex, I think. For now, they're just there
Seeing as the Riptide can still JSJ using its 'boost' nova charge ability there is fairly good chance JSJ is comming back with the release of an actual codex. Otherwise there would also not really be a point to the jetpack keyword, but who knows.
Are you aware of what "100% assured pinpoint deep strike" means for plas and melta crisis?
Plas/plas crisis are still fairly cheap at 64 pts each and can inmediately, from turn one, deploy wherever they want as long as they are 9" away from the enemy and shot the hell out of them at rapid fire range. On top of that, at S5, T5 and 3W each they can actually handle combat rather well against non-specialized assault units, like tactical marines or devastators, and fly allows them to fall back again later on and shoot again.
This all, just after having shot them to hell.
Melta units are in a similar situation. Heck, they can even charge fliers for the heck of it.
I'd argue crisis suits are the strongest they have ever been.
Shadeseraph wrote: Are you aware of what "100% assured pinpoint deep strike" means for plas and melta crisis?
Plas/plas crisis are still fairly cheap at 64 pts each and can inmediately, from turn one, deploy wherever they want as long as they are 9" away from the enemy and shot the hell out of them at rapid fire range. On top of that, at S5, T5 and 3W each they can actually handle combat rather well against non-specialized assault units, like tactical marines or devastators, and fly allows them to fall back again later on and shoot again.
This all, just after having shot them to hell.
Melta units are in a similar situation. Heck, they can even charge fliers for the heck of it.
I'd argue crisis suits are the strongest they have ever been.
Certainly they're stronger, but also quite costly. For 64p I can get 4 vespids, pumping out 8 S5 AP-2 shots. I don't think plasma is optimal on Crisis...
Also, Melta only get its extra d6 roll benefit when at 9" or less. DS has to come more tha 9", which denies that. Still a S8 weapon, but then there are broadsides/hammerheads...
This type of crisis suit has
3 T5 AS3+ wounds
4 S6 AP3 shots
at 11 pts extra per crisis you can gain another 2 shots, BTW
So - they have twice as much fire rate. In terms of point efficience per shot, I'm with you (although the quality of the shots is a different matter).
But here is the catch - Crisis can engage. Very well, I would say. 3 Wounds per model, T5, AS 3+ chasis, can come with drones for protection... they are actually reeally cheap for that kind of chasis. And they hit hard. And fly allows them to flee away from combat and shoot again. Sure, vespids can also do so - but they are in a much worse condition to do that.
Heck, have you noticed that the ATS affects close combat weapons as well?
We've got ourselves a improved, functional version of the forgeworld suits, one that can actually tie enemy units and slow them, or severely damage their heavy support.
Shadeseraph wrote: Are you aware of what "100% assured pinpoint deep strike" means for plas and melta crisis?
Plas/plas crisis are still fairly cheap at 64 pts each and can inmediately, from turn one, deploy wherever they want as long as they are 9" away from the enemy and shot the hell out of them at rapid fire range. On top of that, at S5, T5 and 3W each they can actually handle combat rather well against non-specialized assault units, like tactical marines or devastators, and fly allows them to fall back again later on and shoot again.
This all, just after having shot them to hell.
Melta units are in a similar situation. Heck, they can even charge fliers for the heck of it.
I'd argue crisis suits are the strongest they have ever been.
Plas on an individual is significantly weaker in this edition compared to the previous one (and noticeable and correctly costs far less - more comparable to a Burst Cannon or Flamer now than its former peers, the Missile Pod and the Fusion Blaster).
Doing anything less than tripling your Plasma Rifles seems inappropriate for a Crisis Squad. Rerolling 1's to hit is ubiquitous, so Multi-trackers don't track. An additional -1 to AP is not bad, you're paying almost as much to get two 6/-4/1 RF1 weapons instead of three 6/3/1 RF1 weapons, and the weight of fire is almost always going to win out. You don't have enough damage output to make EWO worth it, IMO, for the loss of firepower against things that don't Deepstrike against you (Put it on the Stormsurges, Broadsides, Ghostkeels, and Riptides if you're a masochist). That's 75 points for 3-6 6/-3/1 shots each.
Probably worth comparing to the new Vespids: for 75 points, you can get 5 Stingwings giving 2 5/-2/1 shots each, from up to 18" (so you can land/make use of terrain more easily and can reach up to 9" into enemy "territory" and still get efficient shooting done). Starting at the same BS, Vespids can be boosted the same by Markerlights and other outside sources, except because the Neutron Blaster is an Assault weapon, the Vespids may also Advance in the movement round (gaining an additional 1d6" on the already remarkable 14" they have base) and still shoot their weapons (either with a penalty, or with enough ML, equal to a Crisis Suit).
Without ML Support, against Devastators, Terminators, Inceptors, and a Dreadnought:
Vespid: 2.22 1.67 1.25 1.11
Crisis:
<=12" 1.67 1.33 1.33 .83
<24" .87 .67 .67 .42
ML Support grants an equal benefit, in terms of the accuracy boost, and ML boosts are now activated for all units, so either squad (or multiple Vespid squads) can all benefit equally. The only real remaining questions are durability (T4 4+ or 3+ in cover, which is likely an option for the longer ranged, faster-moving Vespid, versus T5 W3 3+ or 2+ in cover, which is less of an option if Crisis Suits want to be in the remotely-comparable-in-performance 12" range), which trades more, slightly more vulnerable wounds versus one pool of wounds with a higher defense but more subject to being deleted by a single heavy weapon.
Our Fusion Blasters and Fusion Colliders are all 18" range. The Manta Strike mechanic requires us to deploy MORE than 9" away from any enemy. We're not getting the roll-2-pick-highest damage numbers. For that same reason, Flamers are completely unusable by normal Manta Striking Crisis Suits, and that's undeniable fact. They're reasonably priced for their effectiveness, arguably.
Our Missile Pods got expensive. They're a good mid-range, do everything weapon.
Cyclic Ion Blasters are... Interesting. I can see a use for them, maybe, with a lot of ML support.
Airbursting Frag Projectors seem lackluster to me. Might be amazing in City Fights or dense fields of battle. They're relatively cheap, too - roughly in the Flamer/BC/PR range.
I personally find the changes to Tau a bit frustrating.
We're supposed to be a shooty army with little/no melee ability.
But we're 50/50 shots which is worse that Necrons (an army that can do everything pretty well and is resilient as hell) and aren't really supposed to be a 'shooty' army. We're also marginally 'better' in melee now.
We're supposed to use markers to improve our shooting but this isn't really massively viable now as you need at least 10 markers to up the BS on one unit. This essentially makes them only useful for the re-roll to 1s which isn't really that useful (20 shots = ~11 hits with rerolls) and seeker missiles which go from a 1/6 chance to hit to a 1/2 to hit. The other options are really situational. I don't deny markerlights were a bit broken last edition more because of the core rules than the abilities themselves.
I literally feel like what happened this edition is GW heard 'these are all the things people complained about being powerful in 8th, let's nerf them.' And 'these are the things everyone wanted to be better' let's buff them.
I literally feel like what happened this edition is GW heard 'these are all the things people complained about being powerful in 8th, let's nerf them.' And 'these are the things everyone wanted to be better' let's buff them.
That's what it feels like to me as well. Rather than making the changes they wanted to make and looking at how things sat, and then adjusting them accordingly, they made the changes they wanted, then buffed things everyone said was too weak and nerfed things that people said we're too good, without looking at how those things interacted with the new edition.
JSJ is a good example. Some people complained that JSJ was too good, (though I've never actually heard that in person). But with the changes to movement speed, first turn charges, the ability to jump from combat to combat, charging out of deepstrike, etc, I don't think anyone would care. But at the same time, they didn't increase any of the ranges that have been short due to JSJ. For a decent number of units, 18 inches is not a difficult thing to do.
I was thinking about what it was that really annoyed me about this Tau release and I realised that it essentially boils down to Tau are not really good at anything any more.
Now I don't mean I want them to be super OP or anything but let's look at a few armies:
Guard - average everything with loads of bodies
Marines - good everything with no specialisms and medium numbers
Eldar - (should be) excellent specialists in small numbers
Tyranids - good combat but fragile with loads of bodies and speed
Necrons - (should be) average everything, resilient and in medium numbers
Tau - (should be) good shooting in smallish number
What has happened with the Tau now is smallish squads with pretty average shooting.
I'm not saying it's 'bad' but when shooting is really all you have and you can't really buff it you start having to become a quasi-horde army to compensate which isn't really viable with Tau due to squad caps and somewhat restrictive costs.
I literally feel like what happened this edition is GW heard 'these are all the things people complained about being powerful in 8th, let's nerf them.' And 'these are the things everyone wanted to be better' let's buff them.
That's what it feels like to me as well. Rather than making the changes they wanted to make and looking at how things sat, and then adjusting them accordingly, they made the changes they wanted, then buffed things everyone said was too weak and nerfed things that people said we're too good, without looking at how those things interacted with the new edition.
JSJ is a good example. Some people complained that JSJ was too good, (though I've never actually heard that in person). But with the changes to movement speed, first turn charges, the ability to jump from combat to combat, charging out of deepstrike, etc, I don't think anyone would care. But at the same time, they didn't increase any of the ranges that have been short due to JSJ. For a decent number of units, 18 inches is not a difficult thing to do.
I am pretty confident we did not lose JSJ (don't have details on what "jet pack' does) HOWEVER - I think you are spot on about "what people complained about".
Tau feel pretty heavily nerfed - seekers and destroyer missiles are very difficult to use, and markers are incredibly annoying now.
(really, were they that complicated before).
I won't complain about the points cost increases too much - as most armies were hit with that - but some units just feel worthless now (or not even remotely valuable - skyray, I will miss you).
Oh, and before everyone goes gaga for vespid - they still need a LOT of marker support, and only have a 4+ save.
Deadawake1347 wrote: The Riptide takes a mortal wound in order to JSJ. If that doesn't mean it's dead for everyone else, I don't know what does.
Well seeing as it has 14 wounds now, and my opponent never shoots its anyways that doesnt sound so bad right [edit]wait nm if you just use it to jsj yeah, thats pretty bad, but the other abilities are still pretty good[/edit]? Also, it never fails anymore, and you'll still be able to save it with the stim injector, although only on a 6. Given that the nova abilities are pretty powerful now its more like an actual choice to make, do I activate it or not, instead of just rolling the dice every turn and hoping you dont fail. What makes me reconsider using riptides more is the absolute garbage that is large blasts now. Sure the stat line on nova-charged ion accelerators is nice but 1D6 hits only? Waaaaay to unreliable and to few hits in my book, but thats my view on every large blast weapon that is not 1D6, I cant believe anybody seriously thought that comes close to the performance they used to have.
We're supposed to use markers to improve our shooting but this isn't really massively viable now as you need at least 10 markers to up the BS on one unit. This essentially makes them only useful for the re-roll to 1s which isn't really that useful (20 shots = ~11 hits with rerolls) and seeker missiles which go from a 1/6 chance to hit to a 1/2 to hit. The other options are really situational
I think you underestimate re-rolling 1's. For most things it means you can re-roll a third of your misses, or half of your misses for the Stormsurge. Then if you get 5 MLs then obviously that gets even better.
Furthermore, I haven't read all army's rules thoroughly, but on a game wide level I think you'll find that re-roll everything abilities are going to be pretty rare. They will be much fewer re-rolls in 8th than in 7th, and so even if it doesn't feel like a strong ability, with fewer re-rolls game-wide, its actually going to be better than you think in the new meta.
The Shas'ui is free and the bonding knife upgrade stops entire units from fleeing on a bad day, these are both pretty meh to me, I never took either.
...
Certain elements of the core rules appear to favour Tau, until you realise that any unit that survives a round of the fight phase is essentially dead anyway to morale.
[Emphasis mine]
Seems like you are ignoring the solutions to your problem.
Well, it's a one in six chance, though if you use the well thought out Ethereal ability to subtract one from your battleshock roll, negating the benefit...
Deadawake1347 wrote: Well, it's a one in six chance, though if you use the well thought out Ethereal ability to subtract one from your battleshock roll, negating the benefit...
Yes, rolling a 6 is a 1 in 6 chance, but if you think about it this will have a constant effect.
First lets take the Shas'ui. Basic Tau Ld is 6, so if you loose 1 model, you need to roll a 6 to have 1 guy run away as the number you loose plus your roll must beat your Ld (1+6=7. 7-Ld 6=1). With the Shas'ui this goes up to 2 models as Ld goes up to 7 (I won't insult your intelligence with more simple maths). He saves you 1 guy per turn.
Next, since the Bonding Knife lets you pass Ld checks on a roll of 6, then 5 is effectively the maximum you can roll. Therefore you need to loose al least 3 models before you loose any more to battleshock, and then you only have only a 1 in 6 chance to loose somebody. Rolling a 1-4 doesn't put you over your Ld, a 5 loses you a guy, and a 6 activates the bonding knife.
The Shas'ui and Bonding Knife may seem meh, but they raise the bar for failing battleshock tests, and effectively reduce models lost by at least 2 each time.
EDIT: Also the Etherial says subtract 1 from the test (roll + models lost), not the roll itself, so a 6 still works for the Bonding Knife. You also get to use the Etherial's Ld of 9 if you're within 6, which is nice.
In general, the more I think about it, the more I feel that the saviour protocols thing is kind of busted. For the cheap, cheap cost of 8 points you can substitute any allocated wound from anything on a drone.
Sure, it was already a thing previously, but not with the kind of flexibility we have now. They protect your larger suits, shield you from morale effects - and, since most of our sources generate 2 lone drones that count as their own unit, tend to not care about morale themselves.
And now that cover saves aren't a thing anymore, I could see shield drones becoming popular, too. 8 pts is damn cheap
Ethreal - Cool, Invocations are back... I wonder how they stack with Commander MoB...
Commander MoB v2 - Aww wait what, once per battle... lame
Ethreal v2 - What! and Invocations are still every turn? ... and there is no more VP penalty for Ethreal dying? Welp, I'ma probably spam Ethreals!
Fireblade - ooh not bad, spamming you too! // DarkFireblade - and you!
Seeker Missiles - ONLY HIT ON A 6?!!?!? COME ON! ... Then again Mortal Wounds... I think this needs some further study.
Threat Identification Protocol - Does this rules box need to appear on everything? I'm thinking; No...
Razorshark - I don't think you have a purpose to exist...
Bomber - Okay, so the bomb kinda only REALLY works against larger units. Tho hurray mortal wounds?
Vespids - Woah! these are feeling sound insanely good!
X88 - HOLY POINT INCREASE BATMAN!
X8 - HOLY MOTHER DAYUM WHY IS THIS SO MANY POINTS NOW!
Support System - Oh wtf these sound insanely good!
Drone Controller and Overwatch... Overwatch only hits on 6s, but Drone Controller doesn't improve BS or whatever, it only adds 1 to hits... I think it works on Overwatch~
Many things got more expensive but some stayed the same or got cheaper-like Drones or certain Suit builds.
For example, I used to run a double Plasma/target lock/Bonding Knife unit with 3 suits and 6 Gun Drones. That was about 246 points in 7th.
In current rules, that same load out would be 240 points (suit, 2x Plasma and 2x Gun Drones)-the unit is actually cheaper because Plasma and drones are cheaper and no need for Target Lock since you can freely split fire. I'm going to run the same unit in 8th but add a 3rd Plasma and 2 drones so I can have 3-6 Plasma shots per suit. The fact that Suits can now have 3 ranged weapons and fire all of them is HUGE.
The Missile Pod variant got more expensive (90 in 8th compared to 58 in 7th) but I am excited to try out a 2x Missile Pod unit with Advanced Targeting to give the Missile Pods an extra AP. Being able to wound many vehicles on a 3-4+ and at the worst a 5+, regardless of Toughness, with -2 armor and d3 Hull each shot makes them still a formidable anti armor/mc unit IMO.
Also looking forward to trying out suits with double Fusion, Burst cannon or Flamer set-ups and Target Lock so I can Advance and still shoot those Assault weapons without penalty.
Regarding Broadsides, yes Broadsides did get A LOT more expensive. They are currently just over 3x the cost (202 for 2x HYMP and 2x SMS whereas they used to be 65 base, 70 w/Target Locks) but each Broadside noq has 3x the wounds and DOUBLE the shots and built in target lock. They also can have Drones freely take hits for them now.
Overall, I'm pretty excited to try out my all crisis suit/Broadside list.
Seeker Missiles - ONLY HIT ON A 6?!!?!? COME ON! ... Then again Mortal Wounds... I think this needs some further study.
Drone Controller and Overwatch... Overwatch only hits on 6s, but Drone Controller doesn't improve BS or whatever, it only adds 1 to hits... I think it works on Overwatch~
Markerlights let you fire the Seeker Missiles at full BS. I think it's a good idea to do it this way, otherwise they would be OP and people would spam those mortal wounds. They may do so anyway, you only need 2 markerlights for it.
I think Markerlights are pretty good generally as they stack effects. Bonuses should be rarer in 8th than 7th.
Interesting Overwatch thought. Will need further study.
Why do you think about Riptides? I'm actually not a Tau player but I'm checking them out as my friend is freaking out that they have been nerfed and overcosted so much they are useless now.
Ion riptide are now weakballs imho, the nerf to blasts makes them fairly meh, especially as they used target densely packed stuff (using EWO, or stuff from blown up transports) or large hordes where 5-6 hits was easy to get, and now its 1D6 :'). However, the other cannon still has plenty of hits but on the whole riptides are more expensive, but useless, dunno about that yet.
mortetvie wrote: Many things got more expensive but some stayed the same or got cheaper-like Drones or certain Suit builds.
For example, I used to run a double Plasma/target lock/Bonding Knife unit with 3 suits and 6 Gun Drones. That was about 246 points in 7th.
In current rules, that same load out would be 240 points (suit, 2x Plasma and 2x Gun Drones)-the unit is actually cheaper because Plasma and drones are cheaper and no need for Target Lock since you can freely split fire. I'm going to run the same unit in 8th but add a 3rd Plasma and 2 drones so I can have 3-6 Plasma shots per suit. The fact that Suits can now have 3 ranged weapons and fire all of them is HUGE.
The Missile Pod variant got more expensive (90 in 8th compared to 58 in 7th) but I am excited to try out a 2x Missile Pod unit with Advanced Targeting to give the Missile Pods an extra AP. Being able to wound many vehicles on a 3-4+ and at the worst a 5+, regardless of Toughness, with -2 armor and d3 Hull each shot makes them still a formidable anti armor/mc unit IMO.
Also looking forward to trying out suits with double Fusion, Burst cannon or Flamer set-ups and Target Lock so I can Advance and still shoot those Assault weapons without penalty.
Regarding Broadsides, yes Broadsides did get A LOT more expensive. They are currently just over 3x the cost (202 for 2x HYMP and 2x SMS whereas they used to be 65 base, 70 w/Target Locks) but each Broadside noq has 3x the wounds and DOUBLE the shots and built in target lock. They also can have Drones freely take hits for them now.
Overall, I'm pretty excited to try out my all crisis suit/Broadside list.
Note that many here dislike plas suits now for several reasons: -Vespids became incredibly point efficient, at 15 per 2 S5 AP 2 shots -Plasma now wounds T4 on 5+, while most vehicles got T7 or higher, so its S6 is in many cases not enough to make a difference -Finally, commanders are very cheap for what they do, and offer 4 mount points, all of which can be weapons, with a BS of 2+, with the additional advantages of being characters. Now, personally I feel that crisis suits offer their own advantages, but to each their own.
As for broadsides, it's fairly simple - they got priced as main battle tanks, because their firepower is comparable to theirs - and even superior in many cases. GW raised the broadsides resilience to light tank level more or less to make up for the increased cost. Overall, they are not a bad deal, just think about them as you'd think of a less mobile, more shooty hammerhead that can be taken in squads. And you can give them Advanced Targeting Systems and Target locks for a very fun unit.
Seeker Missiles - ONLY HIT ON A 6?!!?!? COME ON! ... Then again Mortal Wounds... I think this needs some further study.
Drone Controller and Overwatch... Overwatch only hits on 6s, but Drone Controller doesn't improve BS or whatever, it only adds 1 to hits... I think it works on Overwatch~
Markerlights let you fire the Seeker Missiles at full BS. I think it's a good idea to do it this way, otherwise they would be OP and people would spam those mortal wounds. They may do so anyway, you only need 2 markerlights for it.
I think Markerlights are pretty good generally as they stack effects. Bonuses should be rarer in 8th than 7th.
Interesting Overwatch thought. Will need further study.
Why do you think about Riptides? I'm actually not a Tau player but I'm checking them out as my friend is freaking out that they have been nerfed and overcosted so much they are useless now.
I didn't judge them too heavily since I didn't want to bother figuring out the points for all the different guns it has...
People are complaining that Riptide are trash because Nova always causes a wound... but I don't see why I can't just pawn that wound off on a drone with Saviour Protocol... (Sacrificing Drones for the Greater Good! MOAR MICROCHIPS FOR THE MICROCHIP GOD!)
I like the fact that Nova is reliable now. Also 2 support without losing any guns is crazy potential.
Having played these new tau rules (vs necrons) I can say the following:
I found broadsides to be really really good. The points increase while orginally making me go "whaaaaaaat?" is justified. Plasma/railrifle broadsides are the way to go. They annihilate characters and vehicles
Hammerheads are pretty weak still. Better off with a broadsides. The railgun being Str10 isnt really much of a difference over the rifles str8. Submunitions and ion cannons arent worth using due to blast changes.
Blast weapons in general are way too weak.
The riptide is overcosted and undergunned. This is a a combination of kneejerk nerf batting and as mentioned above the overall weakness of "blast" weapons
Fire warriors are very good for their points value. They threaten everything
Crisis teams are back. With tough 5 and an extra wound, being able to fly out of melee, and the changes to the wound chart they are alot more survivable and also since they can fly into terrain they can make much more use of cover. Advanced targeting system on Plasma/missile or multi tracker on dual plasma/fusion.
Pathfinders have dropped a point but due to makerlight changes are a bit less valuable
Markerlight changes are a mixed bag. They basically mean 1 enemy unit (or sometimes 2) are going to DIE but nothing else effected. since markerlights will buff other markerlight units youre best off splitting your markers into as many MSU as you can to give the second marking unit rerolls of 1 to hit. The character targeting changes means you will almost never be able to buff your shooting against characters
Vespid are usable! Kroot have a purpose as a melee/scout/annoyance unit as they are very cheap for what they do and can disengage from melee to allow you to shoot up a unit they were holding up
While at first I didnt like the sound of the drone changes, theyre actually really fun and very useful. Multiple 2-model drone units from various squads increases the surviability of your suits massively and really helps to shield from melee units
Enemies assaulting from transports/reserve is scary but can be countered with proper drone/kroot placement and supporting fire
Sunsharks are very promising.
Razorshark is the new vespid
Sniper drones are overcosted and undergunned
The commander can put out a serious amount of firepower with a targeting system. His survivability has reduced slightly with the loss of iridium armour but base T5 and cover as well as drone use makes him just as hard to kill. I find dual plasma,targeting system, shield generator is pretty good
Invuln saves are very important with the new AP system, hence why the shield generator is well worth it.
Crisis suits being able to melee fliers is brilliant
Marker drones need drone controller support
Overall I actually like the changes far more on the table than when I saw them in the book. Im really happy kroot are back to having a chance in melee, also they are quite fast and can shoot their rapid fire weapons and charge so theyre much better. Shapers are worth taking with them as well. Still not sure about breachers. I think youre stilll better off with strike teams. Cant see why you would ever want to use a razorshark. I think skyrays have taken a bit of a pounding from the seeker changes, They might have situational use but theyre not a good AA platform anymore as a maximum of 6 mortal wounds if all the rolling goes right wont kill any fliers.If they did D3 damage per hit and destroyer missiles did D3+3 that might be a bit better.
HRR broadsides are fairly similar to hamemrheads in firepower and damage, to be honest - too much, in my opinion - very similar point cost, the broadside has 2 S8 attacks at BS 4+ while the Hammerhead has one S10 at BS3+. Statistically is fairly similar, but the broadsides can score two wounds (x D6) while the hammer head can't. Other bonifiers, like markerlight support are going to be better for the broadside than for the hammerhead
The hammerhead is more mobile, but as the railgun is a heavy weapon, he's saddled with the negative modifier if it moves, while the broadsides can take a target lock. The railgun has slightly more versatility in the second fire mode, but I would say that this does not compensate against the broadsides' two shots.
Arguably, Longstrike can improve the efficiency of a group of hammerheads quite a bit, while there isn't an equivalent for broadsides, so there is that.
Finally, the hammerhead should in theory be more durable, but being able to redirect wounds to drones, and a 2+ armor save, makes broadsides very durable as well
Honestly, though, Darkstrider with a squad of pathfinders with rail rifles is more efficient than both.
My overall impression of the new Tau is that the meek inherited the earth. Fire Warriors of both types, Drones, and Pathfinders all got a massive boost. On the other hand, our mechs got rocked pretty hard. Riptides appear basically unusable. Stormsurges are actually pretty good still, by comparison with the field, but getting slowed to 6" move really hampers the blastcannon badly. Broadsides still spew firepower like crazy but are glass cannons that'll have to heavily rely on drone sacrifices to stay functional.
Vespids do look to be pretty useful for the first time ever.
Note that the Stormsurge has the vehicle keyword rather than the battlesuit keyword, so it can't be protected by drones, unlike the riptide and the ghostkeel.
In general, it seems to be a common trend: infantry types got boosted and big toys nerfed (with some exceptions, like fexes) - and the general rules also favor infantry over big dudes, with things like controlling objectives being dependant on number of bodies or blast weapons being converted do "heavy D3" or "Heavy D6" that also work against single models.
A question then: Are tau players content with the intermediate rulebook dex, and willing to wait on a new 8th ed Tau Codex, or do they want a new codex immediately?
Well, without actually testing in play, it's hard to say, but my initial reaction is positive - I like what I see. There are some duds, like commanders rendering crisis suit teams fairly obsolete on paper, but I don't think I'd consider the codex so broken that it needs a fix ASAP.
Markerlights let you fire the Seeker Missiles at full BS. I think it's a good idea to do it this way, otherwise they would be OP and people would spam those mortal wounds. They may do so anyway, you only need 2 markerlights for it.
How would Seekers be OP if they are expendable??
Bobug wrote: Having played these new tau rules (vs necrons) I can say the following:
most important question... who won? was it a toe-to-toe game?
Shadeseraph wrote: Honestly, though, Darkstrider with a squad of pathfinders with rail rifles is more efficient than both.
Rail Rifles are too expensive to work with pathfinders (a quite fragile profile). Ion Rifles, on the other hand, seems to be a good option for them
carldooley wrote: A question then: Are tau players content with the intermediate rulebook dex, and willing to wait on a new 8th ed Tau Codex, or do they want a new codex immediately?
no codex now! first codexes of each edition are generally terribad. let outs be 4th or 5th in line
Shadeseraph wrote: Honestly, though, Darkstrider with a squad of pathfinders with rail rifles is more efficient than both.
Rail Rifles are too expensive to work with pathfinders (a quite fragile profile). Ion Rifles, on the other hand, seems to be a good option for them
I though the same initially, but rail rifles are expensive for a reason. Namely, d3 wounds and potential extra mortal wound along -4 ap. The ap alone wouldn't have been enough, but they are really cheap for the kind of hurt they can put on bigger targets.
Also, pathfinders are as fragile as drones let them be
I'm disappointed that Riptides and Broadsides, to a lesser extent, got beaten so hard. They were honestly two of my favorite models, and I doubt they'll find their way into my lists. On the other hand, I'm quite excited about having a troop-heavy force. I tried to make that work in 7th with some success, but the strategy was pretty reliant on the bigger suits killing hard targets. Now that S5 is a killy sweet spot, Fire Warriors shine like diamonds. Ditto Gun Drones and their 4 shots per 8pt model.
Can anyone explain why the Sky Ray costs more than the Hammerhead when it's effectively a Devilfish that traded people for explosive friends. (and I guess 1 wound)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also... is it just me or is Tau... kinda ... no longer the worst thing ever when it comes to melee?
like...
Some of these models look like they might actually do fine against non-melee dedicated troops.
Talamare wrote: Can anyone explain why the Sky Ray costs more than the Hammerhead when it's effectively a Devilfish that traded people for explosive friends. (and I guess 1 wound)
As every edition changes, stuff that people bought/used a lot get hammered down, while bad stuff get an uplift. Sky Rays were used by many players, while Hammerheads not so much.
Talamare wrote: Can anyone explain why the Sky Ray costs more than the Hammerhead when it's effectively a Devilfish that traded people for explosive friends. (and I guess 1 wound)
As every edition changes, stuff that people bought/used a lot get hammered down, while bad stuff get an uplift. Sky Rays were used by many players, while Hammerheads not so much.
Talamare wrote: Can anyone explain why the Sky Ray costs more than the Hammerhead when it's effectively a Devilfish that traded people for explosive friends. (and I guess 1 wound)
As every edition changes, stuff that people bought/used a lot get hammered down, while bad stuff get an uplift. Sky Rays were used by many players, while Hammerheads not so much.
Gotta sell those accumulated stocks, man!
...
They are in the same box
That's the trick! You'll still sell a lot of boxes, but now people will kit out the other option inside!
Stealth Suit Team with 3 models is 90 points and is basically equivalent in fire power to a single 3x Burst Crisis
For 18 points more, you get 2x the wounds, and force a -1 accuracy on opponents in exchange for losing 1 toughness.
Can anyone explain why the Sky Ray costs more than the Hammerhead when it's effectively a Devilfish that traded people for explosive friends. (and I guess 1 wound)
They're actually the exact same price once you factor in wargear. A Sky Ray with 2 Markerlights, 6 Seeker Missiles, and 2 SMS costs the same as a Hammerhead with a Railgun and 2 SMS.
carldooley wrote: A question then: Are tau players content with the intermediate rulebook dex, and willing to wait on a new 8th ed Tau Codex, or do they want a new codex immediately?
To be honest - have a bit of trepidation for the tau - other armies are "wow, can't wait to try this" ...with my tau I am feeling "how am I going to get this to work".
I think we can manage - but it is beginning to feel a bit like 5th edition again. Of course, some of this comes from that some of my personal favorite units feel ....disadvantaged or over costed now (Crisis teams, Skyrays, etc.). I just hope forgeworld does not mess up my beautiful XV9 suits (I want strong units, not garbage, and not OP).
I was never a riptide spammer (I have one) but feel it got hit a bit too hard. Going to give Tau a shot and see how well I can make them work.
Oh, there is one silver lining - I am confident now people won't think I play tau because they are OP anymore....
Stealth suits
Ghostkheels with stealth suits
Shadowsun with the above
Stealth Suits look... okay. Same with both Ghostkeels and Shadowsun. However none of them really have any synergy, other than being able to have Steath Suits take the hit for Shadowsun on a 2+, which drones can do automatically.
All of them have a rule that makes them harder to hit, which is nice, but they've lost out significantly on maneuverability. In addition Shadowsun's bonus Kauyon fights against the Stealth Suit's built in Target Lock, as they want to Advance, not remain stationary.
Stealth suits
Ghostkheels with stealth suits
Shadowsun with the above
I plan to run 3 stealth suits (mostly just for fun). They put out a decent number of shots and are a relatively cheap way to get another fusion blaster.
As for ghostkeel ans shadow sun, they aren't bad choices - they just don't do anything that another unit can do for signicantly less points.
Gotta say, I was pretty stunned by the broadside price hike. hell, I think they're more expensive than deff dreads now. And not much better? Guess they went from 2 wounds to 6, but not much shootier.
Riptide price hike hurts too. Plus, unless I'm mistaken, it can't move and shoot heavy weapons normally?
Kap'n Krump wrote: Gotta say, I was pretty stunned by the broadside price hike. hell, I think they're more expensive than deff dreads now. And not much better? Guess they went from 2 wounds to 6, but not much shootier.
Riptide price hike hurts too. Plus, unless I'm mistaken, it can't move and shoot heavy weapons normally?
Broadsides got the biggest price hike of the entire codex. 3-man units are now pratically impossible to justify.
Indeed, Riptides will have a -1 to hit if they move. But the new target lock allows it to ignore such penalty.
Stealth suits
Ghostkheels with stealth suits
Shadowsun with the above
From what I saw the Ghostkheel drones affect any uint within 3" so they can buff anyone with the Stealth Suits you would get -2 to hit.
I plan to start collecting Tau and grabbing up 3 Ghostkheels 2-4 units of Fire Warriors and as many Pathfinder units as i can fit into slots. Use HQs and Heavy Supp to place some ML and then give most Pathfinder squads either Rail Rifles or Ion Rifles and have an in your face Tau Army.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kap'n Krump wrote: Gotta say, I was pretty stunned by the broadside price hike. hell, I think they're more expensive than deff dreads now. And not much better? Guess they went from 2 wounds to 6, but not much shootier.
Riptide price hike hurts too. Plus, unless I'm mistaken, it can't move and shoot heavy weapons normally?
They have as many wounds as you want them to have, and shiled drones will be good for them. gak they will be useful in general.
carldooley wrote: A question then: Are tau players content with the intermediate rulebook dex, and willing to wait on a new 8th ed Tau Codex, or do they want a new codex immediately?
I have wanted a new Codex since 2009. Still waiting...
Not sure if anyone else noticed this yet, but the FW Xenos index is listed on their Aussie site as coming soon, and one of the preview images is the table of contents for the book, showing what units are listed in it. It all looked pretty much as expected, with two notable exceptions.
1. We finally have a model with no new rules for 8th. The XV89 Crisis Suit is gone. It's not listed for Tau in the ToC. Both the XV81 and XV84 are as seperate Commander entries, but the XV89 is notably absent. Unless it got reworked into a general Crisis upgrade and is just listed under wargear options for the army (though that would still beg the question as to why it didn't rate a new unit page while the other two did), this guy's on his way out. The model is still available for purchase on the Aussie site at the time that I'm writing this. Hopefully this is a misprint or something or the rules for him are coming in the new IA book coming out, but if you like the model, you may want to jump on and order one as they may not be around much longer.
2. There are two new units listed. The TX7 Heavy Bombardment Hammerhead Gunship and the TX7 Fire Support Hammerhead Gunship. My first thought when I saw those were "That sounds a lot like Tau artillery!". My second thought was "Wait, FW gave Hammerheads a bunch of special turrets, a plasma one, a fusion one, and a missile one." So I checked the website. Not sure when it happened, but the plasma and fusion turrets are gone. Only the missile one is left. So now my mind has jumped back to thinking "Those sound a lot like artillery!!!" Whatever they are, they are apparently different enough from the normal Hammerhead to rate their own unit entry in the FW Index, as well as different enough from each other to rate seperate unit entries.
So, let's get some baseless speculation going! What is the fate of the XV89? Are we gonna say goodbye to that rather cool looking suit? What are these two new tanks we're apparently getting and what their profiles and weapons be like?
fusion and plasma turrets gone is a bad thing in my eyes. they weren't very good, but they were options nonetheless and could hav been reworked to be competitive in 8th.
xv89... wasn't it the SMS one? or the markerlight one? I think I never used it before
Never used it, but I think it was the one that increased toughness at the cost of movement or something like that?
The old Barracuda was removed awhile ago, replaced by the new one that's basically better in everyway. I think the Kroot were removed awhile ago as well, I hadn't seen them on there is awhile (granted I'm not the biggest fan of auxiliaries in general so I never paid them much focus, could've missed them).
I'm very interested in how they adapt the R'varna, Y'Vahra, and Ta'unar. None of those had weapons that would translate easily into the new weapon formats. Tetras have always been a favorite of mine, so I'm looking forward to those,as well, though I don't think they'll change a whole lot.
MilkmanAl wrote: I'm very interested in how they adapt the R'varna, Y'Vahra, and Ta'unar. None of those had weapons that would translate easily into the new weapon formats. Tetras have always been a favorite of mine, so I'm looking forward to those,as well, though I don't think they'll change a whole lot.
Me too! already got a R'varna and I'm looking forward to buy the other 2.
Tetras are my favorite Tau unit; however with the new deep strike and homing beacons working as they do now, I don't foresee much use for them now...
Does anyone think that having the drones separate into their own units make them too easy of a target for your opponent to just pick off and easily cancel their buffs?
I really like the idea of them being able to split off and go where they are needed, but when your opponent can just take a couple of shots and destroy your grav-inhibitor drone before he charges will the drones really be that beneficial?
I get that any shots they take at the drones are not targeting your troops or suits or whatever, so really that is a good thing if they are targeting shield drones or gun drones because that is mostly why they are there anyway. The drones with specific benefits though seem to be made pretty weak by this. Another example would be the stealth drones with the Ghostkeel. If they take out the drones first that -2 to hit is now only -1.
Obviously pros and cons either way, but I just wanted to get the take of some other people. Thanks!
I agree that drones are not exactly the most reliable sources of buffs, but they're also really cheap now. Furthermore, you can reliably hide stealth drones behind a Ghostkeel, so you can force your opponent to jockey a bit to get at them. I wouldn't count on those bonuses being available, but it's worth 8 points to try, in my opinion.
Mud Turkey 13 wrote: Does anyone think that having the drones separate into their own units make them too easy of a target for your opponent to just pick off and easily cancel their buffs?
I really like the idea of them being able to split off and go where they are needed, but when your opponent can just take a couple of shots and destroy your grav-inhibitor drone before he charges will the drones really be that beneficial?
I get that any shots they take at the drones are not targeting your troops or suits or whatever, so really that is a good thing if they are targeting shield drones or gun drones because that is mostly why they are there anyway. The drones with specific benefits though seem to be made pretty weak by this. Another example would be the stealth drones with the Ghostkeel. If they take out the drones first that -2 to hit is now only -1.
Obviously pros and cons either way, but I just wanted to get the take of some other people. Thanks!
Completely agree. While we can fill the board with cheap tactical drones, Ghostkeel/Pathfinders ones are more exclusive and expensive. You'll have to use impassable terrain to stop them from being singled out by enemies
Mud Turkey 13 wrote: Does anyone think that having the drones separate into their own units make them too easy of a target for your opponent to just pick off and easily cancel their buffs?
I really like the idea of them being able to split off and go where they are needed, but when your opponent can just take a couple of shots and destroy your grav-inhibitor drone before he charges will the drones really be that beneficial?
I get that any shots they take at the drones are not targeting your troops or suits or whatever, so really that is a good thing if they are targeting shield drones or gun drones because that is mostly why they are there anyway. The drones with specific benefits though seem to be made pretty weak by this. Another example would be the stealth drones with the Ghostkeel. If they take out the drones first that -2 to hit is now only -1.
Obviously pros and cons either way, but I just wanted to get the take of some other people. Thanks!
They have the same save but better toughness for infantry as for the bigger units where its better to shoot at the drones no matter what keep them in hiding. make sure they cannot be targeted, or dont bring special drone.
When I read the XV88 profile I thought the railrifle looks pretty decent compared to the HYMP and it might actually be a comparable choice.
Then I read, that you exchance the HRR for TWO HYMP!
Compared:
HRR: Heavy 2 S8 AP-4 D D6 + Mortal wounds
Best Case Scenario: 12 Wounds + 2 Motal Wounds
vs.
HYMP: Heavy 8 (2x4) S7 AP-1 D3
Best Case Scenario: 24 Wounds
the HYMP might be the better choice against Light Vehicles and Infantry while the HRR might this edition actually serve a purpose against Heave Vehicles and Monstrous creatures, while beeing almost useless against infantry.
What do you think?
What would be your weapon of choice?
My thoughts so far are:
- Hammerheads, HRR XV88 and Fusion Crisis against the big stuff
- Plasma Crisis against Heavy infantry (e.g. Terminators)
- Do MP Crisis still serve a purpose?
Aeri wrote: When I read the XV88 profile I thought the railrifle looks pretty decent compared to the HYMP and it might actually be a comparable choice.
Then I read, that you exchance the HRR for TWO HYMP!
Compared:
HRR: Heavy 2 S8 AP-4 D D6 + Mortal wounds
Best Case Scenario: 12 Wounds + 2 Motal Wounds
vs.
HYMP: Heavy 8 (2x4) S7 AP-1 D3
Best Case Scenario: 24 Wounds
the HYMP might be the better choice against Light Vehicles and Infantry while the HRR might this edition actually serve a purpose against Heave Vehicles and Monstrous creatures, while beeing almost useless against infantry.
What do you think?
What would be your weapon of choice?
My thoughts so far are:
- Hammerheads, HRR XV88 and Fusion Crisis against the big stuff
- Plasma Crisis against Heavy infantry (e.g. Terminators)
- Do MP Crisis still serve a purpose?
So yea, against Light Vehicles such as Necrons, War Walkers, Drew Carey HYMP will be better. Against Imperium vehicles like Rhinos, then Railgun is better.
Railgun is also cheaper 162 vs 143 (not including 2ndary guns or support)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Markerlight effect of reroll 1 on each accuracy
Just replace those accuracy values on the bottom according to a models accuracy if you want to know the average when the model is firing at a target that has been affected by a markerlight.
But basically, you have a 1/6 chance of rolling a 1, if you do you multiply the targets accuracy again since you have a second die roll. Then you just add the original chance of success to the second chance of success.
Automatically Appended Next Post: vs Tripod Crisis (114 points), as always T6 assumes 4+ save | T7+ assumes 3+ save <<-- Assumes No Markerlight
How are points figured in this edition. When it says that you may replace one weapon or system with another, do we subtract the costs of the replaced systems before adding the additions? For instance, on Crisis Battlesuits, the base cost is 42 points. If I decide to replace the burst cannon with a trio of Flamers, is the ending cost 59 or 69 points?
carldooley wrote: How are points figured in this edition. When it says that you may replace one weapon or system with another, do we subtract the costs of the replaced systems before adding the additions? For instance, on Crisis Battlesuits, the base cost is 42 points. If I decide to replace the burst cannon with a trio of Flamers, is the ending cost 59 or 69 points?
69 points
With the exception of Drones and most Characters, units are listed as their cost without wargear.
carldooley wrote: How are points figured in this edition. When it says that you may replace one weapon or system with another, do we subtract the costs of the replaced systems before adding the additions? For instance, on Crisis Battlesuits, the base cost is 42 points. If I decide to replace the burst cannon with a trio of Flamers, is the ending cost 59 or 69 points?
69 points
With the exception of Drones and most Characters, units are listed as their cost without wargear.
Thanks. Would Longstrike be one of the exceptions? Are the costs of the weapon systems added to his cost?
carldooley wrote: How are points figured in this edition. When it says that you may replace one weapon or system with another, do we subtract the costs of the replaced systems before adding the additions? For instance, on Crisis Battlesuits, the base cost is 42 points. If I decide to replace the burst cannon with a trio of Flamers, is the ending cost 59 or 69 points?
69 points
With the exception of Drones and most Characters, units are listed as their cost without wargear.
Thanks. Would Longstrike be one of the exceptions? Are the costs of the weapon systems added to his cost?
Nope, but he ends up only being 20 points. I would say he is the best possible 20 points you can spend in Tau. If you only bring 1 Hammerhead, or as I call it. Longhead. It is still worth it.
Darkstrider for example only works with Infantry, With our S5 guns it would only really be useful with Danger Close Breachers or vs T5/T6 enemies.
Fireblade again only really works with infantry.
Ethereal basically gives you Markerlight 1 if you don't move... meh
Overall, I would say whoever designed Tau... Probably didn't do a great job testing them. If they had then the Markerlight table wouldn't be as terrible as it currently is.
Most Support System or Commander buffs are replicated in the current Markerlight system.
Edit - On second thought, the Markerlight system is probably rather fine. I would change it to the Commander & Support System benefits could have been better.
Edit2 - On third thought, I just looked thru IG... It looks like they are in a similar boat in that they have like half a dozen ways of getting the reroll 1s benefit. So it's not really a Tau issue. It's more of a general widespread uninspired approach to game design.
I'm hesitant to say this for fear of starting a bitch-fest, but I was pretty concerned with the ITC guys being at the top of the playtesting ladder where Tau were concerned. I know Frankie was all about his dual surge/Riptide Wing list, but they've historically had a strangely anti-Tau approach, it seems. That said, I think Tau have turned out fine with a few exceptions. There are some oversights, like the marker table getting duplicated by numerous abilities and Riptides being markedly, almost ridiculously, overcosted (or so it seems - perhaps the tabletop will demonstrate otherwise), but I think the army is well-balanced, as a whole.
When fielding Crisis Suits do you think it would be more beneficial to have each one a dedicated platform to one type of weapon(for example arm the suit with three missile pods, three fusion blasters, etc.) or have each suit carry a variety of weapons(such as one missile pod, one fusion blaster, and one burst cannon)?
The current lack of JSJ, and the temporary state of these...indexes, has led me to box my stuff up until GW can be bothered to release the appropriate rules. I'm not spending any more money on the hobby. I got a couple of potential buyers for my stuff. I may drop flags entirely, the friends I used to play with aren't really my friends anymore, and they won't play 8th anyways
I am really looking forward to the FW Barracuda rules.
I bought one last year and finished painting it a few weeks ago and I really wanna try my new toy
On a side note:
Since I it already came up quite a lot and people were freaking out a bit at my local FLGS Whatsapp group - ONLY Gun Drones have to shoot at the closest unit, marker drones can still use their markerlights however you like ;-)
Mud Turkey 13 wrote: When fielding Crisis Suits do you think it would be more beneficial to have each one a dedicated platform to one type of weapon(for example arm the suit with three missile pods, three fusion blasters, etc.) or have each suit carry a variety of weapons(such as one missile pod, one fusion blaster, and one burst cannon)?
It really depends on the weapons in question due to cost. 3 suits with 3x missile pods each would be hands down the best choice in most situations. However the cost is way too prohibitive. The new split fire rules means that mixed weapons are more viable.
For a take all comers list you probably won't see flamers and burstcannons unless they are splashed (attached to a single suit). You also need to consider the range of the weapon mix. Plasma rifles pair well with fusion blasters and missile pods, but fusion blasters will generally paint poorly with missile pods. You also don't want to be runnng a suit with 3 of a weapon that cost 20+ points. Plasma rifles should be overlooked as they are cheap and deal with both infantry blobs and meq.
It looks like fireknife configuration will be making a return (2x plasma rifle, 1x missile pod). It is strong at range and closeup, the cost is reasonable at 88 pts vs 114 for triple missile pod.
I'm also a fan of burning eye configuration 2x plasma, 1x fusion, but you'll need to dance close to your opponent.
It's easy to fall in the trap of pimping out your suits and then wondering why your model count is so low
Work, i'm aware it's legal with the new transport rules.
Use the breacher team to clear an objective or building, load the strikers into it to support over longer ranges. Maybe. Or something like that at any rate.
Some insight to MP on crisis. I made some comparison charts on burst cannons with and without advanced targetting and compared it to missile pods with and without advanced targeting.
My insight here is that 2 BC + AT is superior over 3 MP if you shoot MEQ's.
The following charts show the added up probaility to do at least x unsaved wounds with the given config of one crisis:
The chart is a little cluttered. You can see that actually 2 BC + AT are superior to 3 BC and 3 MP are superior to 2 MP with AT.
This chart removes inferior configurations and that BC are far better than MP's here.
What you can see here is as long as you only shoot single wound models BC's are very good. Against 2 wound MEQ's the MP's have a chance to outright kill a model (Which is not in the chart as damage with the new one by one roll system is tough to calculate, which means every unsaved wound results still in D3 dmg here). Taking into consideration that MP's are not 28 points for a full kit but 72 points taking a Crisis far beyond 100 points I don't think its a good configuration.
XeZZ wrote: Some insight to MP on crisis. I made some comparison charts on burst cannons with and without advanced targetting and compared it to missile pods with and without advanced targeting.
My insight here is that 2 BC + AT is superior over 3 MP if you shoot MEQ's.
The following charts show the added up probaility to do at least x unsaved wounds with the given config of one crisis:
The chart is a little cluttered. You can see that actually 2 BC + AT are superior to 3 BC and 3 MP are superior to 2 MP with AT.
This chart removes inferior configurations and that BC are far better than MP's here.
What you can see here is as long as you only shoot single wound models BC's are very good. Against 2 wound MEQ's the MP's have a chance to outright kill a model (Which is not in the chart as damage with the new one by one roll system is tough to calculate, which means every unsaved wound results still in D3 dmg here). Taking into consideration that MP's are not 28 points for a full kit but 72 points taking a Crisis far beyond 100 points I don't think its a good configuration.
Great information. How does the breakdown go with plasma rifles? Would two of them and an advanced targeting system be better than three of them? I presume that three fusion blasters would be better than two since the AP is already so good.
Played a game with tau and 8th today - just a small 50 point game to get a feeling of units and the rules.
A few observations;
* With the new markerlight rules, you need more shots than ever - as getting quality hits is VERY difficult.
* Sniper drones may be an uphill battle without a drone controller to supplement the marksman
* Broadsides with RR are very useful - if you want any chance to take out vehicles or MC's .- massed firewarrior shooting does not cover it...
* Darkstrider is essential - for running from assault and shooting.
* Darkstrider's ability to lower toughness is also essential when facing T6 MC's other wise even your pulse rifles are wounding on 5vs.
* The ghostkeels stealth is not as useful against BS4 opponents (most armies) any kind of volume of fire.
* Smart players will shot the GK's drones first, then the GK.
* Markerlights or multi-trackers are essential for the GK if you are overcharging (and other overcharged weapons).
* The Pathfinder gravity wave projector drone is actually useful - I thought it would be too situational, but it helped a lot - and since it is NOT tied to a unit, you can move it quite a bit.
* As cover is not as prevalent or determental as last edition the recon drone, or the 4 markerlight hit did not feel as valuable.
* Leadership is one of tau's weakness - battleshock can be more deadly than enemy fire. Especially on kroot or vespid.
* vespid are almost as good as they seem - the absolutely need markersupport (5 if you can do it) but if they get it, they help a lot.
So, the new "but they are persistent, so they are better " markerlights - are not better. In fact they almost HAVE to be persistent now.
Why?
Before, if you wanted to wipe out an enemy infantry squad, you could hit them will a few markers, then have a squad of firewarriors buffed by a fireblade, and rip up most units at BS 5 with a ton of shots. It was fine that the ML were consumed - be cause you killed your target.
Just re-rolling 1's (for 1 marker) or getting a single BS boost (for FIVE) is a LOT more misses. You need the markers to be persistent, so you can use up a second squad - especially with almost everything that is not a troop choice having more wounds.
The game has a lot of new tactical nuances to it - from set up (read the mission set up very carefully - you will find some hidden gems in there) to movement in assault.
Tau are not total doom and gloom- but we certainly got whacked hard with the nerf bat - a little too hard in my opinion, but only time will tell.
Oh, and we played that "jet pack" did NOT give JSJ (since we don't know for sure yet) - and this was crippling to use - I heavily utilize JSJ in my tau lists, and its loss was keenly felt tactically.
Anyway, hope some of this was useful for some folks....
After looking pretty heavily at the leaked index, I have come to a conclusion. My Riptide and Ghostkeel will likely be sitting out of anything but 2.5k+ games. They are simply too expensive, for far too little return. The Ghostkeel is overpriced. And for no reason, it wasn't that fantastic of a unit, and they almost doubled the price on the optimal configuration, that was nothing special. The Riptide, is up in the air. It was terribly undercosted for what it was capable of, I don't dispute that. It's actually probably pretty close to correct, however, the change to large blasts really kills the Ion Accelerator (and -any- weapon that used large blasts, but that's a tangent for another thread). So I can no longer justify taking them.
And that's fine. I've played Tau since their very first codex at the beginning of 4th edition. Back when there were no Riptides, or Ghostkeels. No Stormsurges or Supremacy suits. I fell in love with the army then, due to the look of the suits and vehicles. I thought the XV8's looked great, and the fluff idea behind them was cool. The Hammerheads and Broadsides with their Railguns, a technology I am in love with, were awesome. Stealthsuits, optical camo and silenced weapons that attack 'outside the lines' of Tau doctrine sounded fun. Pathfinders, a unit with laser targeting aids for the rest of the force was such a cool concept. Firewarriors, a generic troop option with powerful weapons that had (at the time) nice looking, dynamic poses. The fluff was cool, in that each unit had a task to fulfill, and taken on their own were generally underwhelming, but when applied en masse, they became a powerful, effective fighting force. Much like the modern military, something that, as a Marine, I found intriguing in ways other armies didn't appeal to me. So, in a way, I'm going to 'return to my roots' with 8th ed. I will be using more Crisis and Broadsides now, my Pathfinders will return to the table, Breachers/Strikers in D-Fish supporting the advance of my mobile suits, while Broadsides engage heavy targets.
Will it rule tables like we are currently accustomed to? No, but it didn't in 4th/5th ed either. I'd like to see markerlights more effective, but maybe we will see a little added utility in an actual codex. I am actually excited to see a return to the style of Tau that first enamored me with the army. Whether it affects my games or not, I am going to miss JSJ, however. It was iconic. It was TAU. I think that is the one thing I am truly sorry to see go.
Martel732 wrote: The Ghostkeel's weaponry was pretty brutal, especially in an OSC.
D6 for large blasts just made the different, it didn't kill them.
JSJ was probably hard to price in the initial codex. Maybe it will come back.
The OSC was the only reason Ghostkeels ever saw the table. And yes, it was broken, no doubt. But without OSC, the Ghostkeel is mediocre at best. It's not horrible, I'm definitely not crying foul that they nerfed Tau to uselessness, but on the whole, Crisis suits can do what it does, but better, in most cases.
I'm wondering about the viability of taking 2 10-man squads of Fire Warrior Strike Teams (or 9-man teams with DS8 turrets) and putting them in a Tidewall Shieldline with Defence Platform. Maybe drop one guy from one of the units in order to stick a Cadre Fireblade in there. The opponent has to destroy the fortifications to be able to hit the guys, and the shieldline turns saves of 6+ into an automatic mortal wound for the firing unit. OUCH. And the shieldline and platform together cost just a little more than a Devilfish, which is faster and tougher but doesn't let your guys shoot out of it and could only transport 1 10-model unit. I'm thinking the fortification could be good for Strike teams, while Breachers would be better served in a 'fish since they need to get close to the enemy to maximize their firepower.
Compared to Crisis Suits. Since we know that ATS is best, we are just going to compare ATS Crisis vs ATS Stealth.
Crisis 42 + Burst 10x2 + ATS 8 = 70 pts for 2 Bursts, or 35 points each vs Stealth Suits 38 points each.
Single Suit
ATS - 8 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 1.33
Point Relation - 52.63
3 Crisis Suits will equal 6 Stealth Suits in number of Shots.
228 points vs 210 points, for 18 points difference...
You get more wounds, but with less toughness. As well Stealth Suit additional Stealth defenses. Oh and the option of having 2 different groups running around. Overall Burst Crisis Suits are probably not worth it. What about Vespids?
Core 15 x4
Core 8 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 2/3 = 1.77
Point Relation
Core - 33.75
Also to reach 210 points of Vespids, we end up with 14 Vespids.
Which is 2 more wounds than Stealth Suits, and 5 more wounds than Crisis Suits. Same T as Stealth Suits, but lower Toughness than Crisis Suits. Finally lower saves than either.
Edit - Let's check Gun Drones too!
28 Drones * 8 points each = 224 points
28 Drones = 56 * 1/3 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 4.18
With Drone Controller = 56 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 6.22 (Let's say this is 234 points, the cost of 2 Drone Controllers)
... and Fire Warriors... which is actually the exact same cost as Gun Drones
and have BS equal to Gun Drones with Drone Controller... So it's really just copy paste... 56 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 6.22
Point Relative - Lower is Better!
Gun Drones = 53.58
Gun Drones with Drone Controller = 37.62
Fire Warriors = 36.01
New Summary... Just use like the extra stuff in your army to kill MEQ. Don't use Battlesuits to kill MEQ.
ATS Airburst - 2 * 3.5 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 0.87
ATS Flamers - 2 * 3.5 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 1.75
... This is actually a little surprising
Point Relation
Airburst - 80
Flamers - 38
IMPORTANT EDIT!! I did the math for Gun Drones assuming they had 1 Pulse Carbine, they apparently have 2!!! Pulse Carbines!!!!!! FOR 8 POINTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 28 Drones * 8 points each = 224 points
28 Drones = 112 * 1/3 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 8.29
With Drone Controller = 112 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 12.44
Point Relation
Normal = 27.02
DC = 18.81
This is so massive that there is basically no reason why you should use anything except for Gun Drones for killing MEQ.
Crisis Suits will literally exist as Anti Tank Firing Base and to carry Drone Controllers.
Great information. How does the breakdown go with plasma rifles? Would two of them and an advanced targeting system be better than three of them? I presume that three fusion blasters would be better than two since the AP is already so good.
Here you go;
So yes 3 Plasma >> 2 Plasma and in RF Range they are actually better in killing everything then BC's
For now I think I will kit my crissis with 3 Plasma.
Basically same numbers as before but using Xezz calculator. vs MEQ
Fire Warriors assume 2 shots, so Carbine or half RF.
Conclusions~
1 - Burst Cannons are terrible
2 - Crisis Suits should not be made to be Anti Infantry, we get plenty of it from the rest of the army
3 - Seriously, don't make Burst Cannon Crisis Suits.
4 - Plasma is alright... but since it's still an anti infantry gun. It's still not very good.
5 - Crisis Suits are overcosted, by about 10 points per model
Edit - Uploaded new chart using the new Calculator
Martel732 wrote: The Ghostkeel's weaponry was pretty brutal, especially in an OSC.
D6 for large blasts just made the different, it didn't kill them.
JSJ was probably hard to price in the initial codex. Maybe it will come back.
The OSC was the only reason Ghostkeels ever saw the table. And yes, it was broken, no doubt. But without OSC, the Ghostkeel is mediocre at best. It's not horrible, I'm definitely not crying foul that they nerfed Tau to uselessness, but on the whole, Crisis suits can do what it does, but better, in most cases.
It was still an mc in an edition where mcs were godly sporting s 6/7 spam in an edition where s 6/7 spam was godly. Ghostkeels were godly, just not as godly as riptides or stormsurges. Mediocre for tau was autotake for have-not lists.
Actually, I'd say stealth suits are the best drone controller carrier, now that crisis can't be taken as single suits anymore - cheap, with some additional durability from stealth field (they can use it in close combat, too!) and you can even take a markerlight on them to boost the drones' shooting.
The main advantage of using crisis would be that they can take up to 6 drones with them in a manta hold.
XeZZ wrote: Gun drones seems great. To bad they cant fire an extra shot from the Cadres
just did an update to the tool so low probabilities wont extent the chart to unreadable^^
Why not? The Cadre's volley fire rule is only keyed to <Sept> units, not infantry units like the Ethereal. And the ability does affect carbines.
costs 228, and should be able to put 68 BS 4+ hits within 18-9" with possibly a ML hit from the fireblade, 96 within 0"-9", and in melee the stealth suits should be able to handle most enemies quite decently, as stealth field works in close combat and you can redirect wounds to the drones. On top of that, the fireblade can throw a photon grenade for an additional -1 to be hit, and even space marines will be hitting the stealth suits on 5+
costs 228, and should be able to put 68 BS 4+ hits within 18-9" with possibly a ML hit from the fireblade, 96 within 0"-9", and in melee the stealth suits should be able to handle most enemies quite decently, as stealth field works in close combat and you can redirect wounds to the drones. On top of that, the fireblade can throw a photon grenade for an additional -1 to be hit, and even space marines will be hitting the stealth suits on 5+
You need to keep in mind, though, that Gun Drones can only shoot at the closest enemy. I know they look amazing on first glance, but I'd not putt all my eggs in that basket when cleverly positioned chaff can just eat up all those shots.
Shadeseraph wrote: Actually, I'd say stealth suits are the best drone controller carrier, now that crisis can't be taken as single suits anymore - cheap, with some additional durability from stealth field (they can use it in close combat, too!) and you can even take a markerlight on them to boost the drones' shooting.
The main advantage of using crisis would be that they can take up to 6 drones with them in a manta hold.
XeZZ wrote: Gun drones seems great. To bad they cant fire an extra shot from the Cadres
just did an update to the tool so low probabilities wont extent the chart to unreadable^^
Why not? The Cadre's volley fire rule is only keyed to <Sept> units, not infantry units like the Ethereal. And the ability does affect carbines.
I think this might actually be broken...
Drones vs Baneblade...
Baneblade is T8 26wounds, 3+ Save
We are going to assume the Drones have 5 Markerlights on the Baneblade. As well as they are all being buffed by a Drone Controller and Kauyon
This means that they will be, BS3, reroll misses. So 1/3 * 2/3 + 2/3 = 2/9 + 6/9 = 8/9 Accuracy.
They will also be buffed by a Fireblade which means that each of their 2 guns, gains an additional shot.
So Each Drone will be able to fire 6 shots.
Accuracy - 8/9
Wound - 5+ or 1/3
Armor - 3+ or 1/3
264 shots divided by 6 shots per Gun Drone equals 44 Gun Drones
44 Gun Drones cost 8 points each, or 352 points.
A Baneblade without any equipment or guns factored in costs 430 points, I expect it's guns to cost around 500 points.
This absolute insanity. Gun Drones aren't intended to be viable Anti Super Heavy Tank guns.
Admittedly, it does a once per battle effect. It requires 5 markerlights, which requires [5 / (21/36)] about a dozen Pathfinders. It also requires a Fireblade.
Finally, and this is the least plausible. It requires the 40 Drones being within 9" without having moved this turn.
Without the last rule, we wouldn't need Kauyon anymore. It would also allow us to move and shoot, but raise the amount of required Drones to...
28/36 * 1/3 * 1/3 = 28/324
26 / (28/324) = 301 shots
(301 / 6) = 51 Gun Drones, or 408 points worth.
I hate to say it, you might add in "needs an eclipse, and ice cream that burns fat".
Why would a baneblade get that close? Your drones not move? You are CONSTANTLY on the move in 8th, as assault is VERY fast. Also, don't forget, a single servo skull - (or spore mine, or what ever) and a drone squad HAS to target the closest target.
While a fun exercise in math, and in looking at potentials - once these exercises go too far in "just needs..." they loose a lot of value in influencing game play.
Are we certain that drone controllers don't stack? If they DID stack, that'd make Stealth Suits the drone escorts of choice since you could easily plop multiple DCs in the same region and go to town with Gun Drones hitting on 2+.
costs 228, and should be able to put 68 BS 4+ hits within 18-9" with possibly a ML hit from the fireblade, 96 within 0"-9", and in melee the stealth suits should be able to handle most enemies quite decently, as stealth field works in close combat and you can redirect wounds to the drones. On top of that, the fireblade can throw a photon grenade for an additional -1 to be hit, and even space marines will be hitting the stealth suits on 5+
You need to keep in mind, though, that Gun Drones can only shoot at the closest enemy. I know they look amazing on first glance, but I'd not putt all my eggs in that basket when cleverly positioned chaff can just eat up all those shots.
TBH, the best source of drones isn't the tactical drone unit, but individual piranhas/devilfishes/strike teams/hammerheads whatever. The pair of drones each one of these can take counts as a single unit, so you can use them little by little to avoid overspending shots.
It also makes drones much less vulnerable to battleshock, too, as all the damage is only accounted for on a unit by unit basis.
Also, you can send a small unit of two to tie that baneblade up for a turn
davethepak wrote: I hate to say it, you might add in "needs an eclipse, and ice cream that burns fat".
Why would a baneblade get that close? Your drones not move? You are CONSTANTLY on the move in 8th, as assault is VERY fast. Also, don't forget, a single servo skull - (or spore mine, or what ever) and a drone squad HAS to target the closest target.
While a fun exercise in math, and in looking at potentials - once these exercises go too far in "just needs..." they loose a lot of value in influencing game play.
The 2nd math allows the Drones to move and shoot. It's still heavily in their favor. Also, it's not 1 super unit of drones. It's would be like a dozen micro units.
The point wasn't that "look, they can kill a Baneblade". It was... THEY WILL KILL EVERYTHING!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MilkmanAl wrote: Are we certain that drone controllers don't stack? If they DID stack, that'd make Stealth Suits the drone escorts of choice since you could easily plop multiple DCs in the same region and go to town with Gun Drones hitting on 2+.
Friendly Drones within 6" of a Drone Controller add 1 to hit rolls.
Definitely doesn't stack, but it does stack with 5 Markerlights. Meaning your ultimate target is going to get wrecked.
Talamare wrote:
Drones vs Baneblade...
Baneblade is T8 26wounds, 3+ Save
We are going to assume the Drones have 5 Markerlights on the Baneblade. As well as they are all being buffed by a Drone Controller and Kauyon
This means that they will be, BS3, reroll misses. So 1/3 * 2/3 + 2/3 = 2/9 + 6/9 = 8/9 Accuracy.
They will also be buffed by a Fireblade which means that each of their 2 guns, gains an additional shot.
So Each Drone will be able to fire 6 shots.
Accuracy - 8/9
Wound - 5+ or 1/3
Armor - 3+ or 1/3
264 shots divided by 6 shots per Gun Drone equals 44 Gun Drones
44 Gun Drones cost 8 points each, or 352 points.
A Baneblade without any equipment or guns factored in costs 430 points, I expect it's guns to cost around 500 points.
This absolute insanity. Gun Drones aren't intended to be viable Anti Super Heavy Tank guns.
Admittedly, it does a once per battle effect. It requires 5 markerlights, which requires [5 / (21/36)] about a dozen Pathfinders. It also requires a Fireblade.
Finally, and this is the least plausible. It requires the 40 Drones being within 9" without having moved this turn.
Without the last rule, we wouldn't need Kauyon anymore. It would also allow us to move and shoot, but raise the amount of required Drones to...
28/36 * 1/3 * 1/3 = 28/324
26 / (28/324) = 301 shots
(301 / 6) = 51 Gun Drones, or 408 points worth.
Accuracy is 7/9 hits.
You have a 3+ to hit initially (happens 2/3 of the time), you miss with no recourse 1/6 of the time, and you get to reroll your 2/3 chance to hit 1/6 of the time:
2/3 +0 + (1/6 *2/3)= 2/3 +1/9 = 6/9 + 1/9 = 7/9.
Talamare wrote:
Edit - Let's check Gun Drones too!
28 Drones * 8 points each = 224 points
28 Drones = 56 * 1/3 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 4.18
With Drone Controller = 56 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 6.22 (Let's say this is 234 points, the cost of 2 Drone Controllers)
... and Fire Warriors... which is actually the exact same cost as Gun Drones
and have BS equal to Gun Drones with Drone Controller... So it's really just copy paste... 56 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 6.22
Point Relative - Lower is Better!
Gun Drones = 53.58
Gun Drones with Drone Controller = 37.62
Fire Warriors = 36.01
Gun drones get 2 Pulse Carbines each, for 4 shots each. They effectively have Burst Cannons. Every Gun Drone has a Burst cannon.
So the 28 gun would have 112 shots, and would have 168 if within range of the Cadre Fireblade.
Add a Drone controller, and every single Gun Drone within range has a Burst Cannon as accurate as a baseline stealth suit.
The question is not what has the most efficient firepower (Gun Drones in the right circumstances probably rival anti-tank weaponry in point efficiency versus tanks, and they are pretty much unrivaled in anti-infantry), but putting that firepower in a useful place.
That means using your other units to "clear a path" for your Drone shooting - prune whatever they put in the way that is inefficient for massed pulse fire to get to, get something worth shooting closest to the drones, then let fly.
You have a 3+ to hit initially (happens 2/3 of the time), you miss with no recourse 1/6 of the time, and you get to reroll your 2/3 chance to hit 1/6 of the time:
2/3 +0 + (1/6 *2/3)= 2/3 +1/9 = 6/9 + 1/9 = 7/9.
8/9 is assuming Kauyon which allows you to reroll all your dice.
The 2nd math using 28/36 is with Markerlight 1, 28/36 = 7/9
Why did I use 28/36... because I copied pasted it from my math in page4 and didn't feel like simplifying.
Seems like Gun Drones will be the preferred choice all round with Markerlights being (arguably ? ) a lot less of an autoinclude now, and even if the Savior Protocols are neat, the mortal wound it gives doesn't make the shield drones as useful as they could be.
doc1234 wrote: Seems like Gun Drones will be the preferred choice all round with Markerlights being (arguably ? ) a lot less of an autoinclude now, and even if the Savior Protocols are neat, the mortal wound it gives doesn't make the shield drones as useful as they could be.
Saviour Protocols does not give mortal wounds, so shield drones are still pretty good ablative wounds against anything that is armor piercing.
Does any one feel Tau got the nerf bat a bit too hard?
I can't help but feel the a lot of army is largely irrelevant now with mostly small unit count and poor BS.
They have some nice stuff like drones saviour protocolsand some of the suit systems,but with the overly heavy nerf to markers mostly they just miss.
I don't want to moan too much but feel like we got a bit too shafted in places.
I don't mind some of it, I think the markers +1bs is too hard to get and therefore makes it irrelevant.
Boniface wrote: Does any one feel Tau got the nerf bat a bit too hard?
I can't help but feel the a lot of army is largely irrelevant now with mostly small unit count and poor BS.
They have some nice stuff like drones saviour protocolsand some of the suit systems,but with the overly heavy nerf to markers mostly they just miss.
I don't want to moan too much but feel like we got a bit too shafted in places.
I don't mind some of it, I think the markers +1bs is too hard to get and therefore makes it irrelevant.
Although I feel the same, I advocate we should playtest a lot until we find how Tau is doing now. Many different lists against many different enemies.
Boniface wrote: Does any one feel Tau got the nerf bat a bit too hard?
I can't help but feel the a lot of army is largely irrelevant now with mostly small unit count and poor BS.
They have some nice stuff like drones saviour protocolsand some of the suit systems,but with the overly heavy nerf to markers mostly they just miss.
I don't want to moan too much but feel like we got a bit too shafted in places.
I don't mind some of it, I think the markers +1bs is too hard to get and therefore makes it irrelevant.
Although I feel the same, I advocate we should playtest a lot until we find how Tau is doing now. Many different lists against many different enemies.
I'm not trying to write them off too soon but I feel that outside some of the HQ options there are some issues.
An option I was considering was to have multiple shield lines with and ethereal and 2 Fireblades with 2 or 3 firewarriors and some vespid.
Boniface wrote: Does any one feel Tau got the nerf bat a bit too hard?
I can't help but feel the a lot of army is largely irrelevant now with mostly small unit count and poor BS.
They have some nice stuff like drones saviour protocolsand some of the suit systems,but with the overly heavy nerf to markers mostly they just miss.
I don't want to moan too much but feel like we got a bit too shafted in places.
I don't mind some of it, I think the markers +1bs is too hard to get and therefore makes it irrelevant.
Although I feel the same, I advocate we should playtest a lot until we find how Tau is doing now. Many different lists against many different enemies.
I'm not trying to write them off too soon but I feel that outside some of the HQ options there are some issues.
An option I was considering was to have multiple shield lines with and ethereal and 2 Fireblades with 2 or 3 firewarriors and some vespid.
Yes, they got hit too hard. But that is spilt milk, and there are already tons of posts about that (here and other places).
Moving forward, have to get over our losses, and try to figure out how to make good games from what we have;
A few things to leverage;
* We have some of the best "look out sir" with drones out there - automatic passing and our extra wounds are cheap.
* The pathfinder drones are independent now, so you can move then around and help enhance other units (just be careful not to get them killed).
* Gun drones are actually a decent source of shots per point, now having TWO carbines per drone.
* Vespid a a bit better - especially since we don't have to (yet) pay for the strain leader upgrade.
* Longstrike is good - if you want to run a hammerhead.
* Seekers, while losing ease of use, do mortal wounds, and are only 5 points now.
* Missile pods, while a lot more expensive, put out serious damage aginst vehicles and MC's - almost better than other means.
* Railsides having two shots is very nice, and with marker support can drop enemy units.
* The ATS system is awesome on burst riptides and some other units.
* All our HQ units are a LOT more durable, and combined with photon grenades can actually survive a round in CC sometimes enough to get out (have drones close by).
* FLY keyword - we got lots of it.
* More weapons on suits - commanders and others - yeah, they are expensive, and no you should not spam them, but gives options.
Yeah, that is not a glowing list - and the things we lost are bad, but its what we got; now to make lists to get the most of it.
Honestly what disappoints me most is that every functional list I make now relies on stationary gunlines hiding at the back edge of the table and making use of long range guns and rules that force models not to move in order to be successful.
In contrast, my list from last edition was made entirely of mobile units, the slowest moving being relentless Broadsides.
Also... Is there ever a reason to take Bodyguards anymore? Savior Protocols is straight up better, and for the same price as upgrading from regular Crisis Suits to Bodyguards, you can take the drones you need for it.
Boniface wrote: Does any one feel Tau got the nerf bat a bit too hard?
I can't help but feel the a lot of army is largely irrelevant now with mostly small unit count and poor BS.
They have some nice stuff like drones saviour protocolsand some of the suit systems,but with the overly heavy nerf to markers mostly they just miss.
I don't want to moan too much but feel like we got a bit too shafted in places.
I don't mind some of it, I think the markers +1bs is too hard to get and therefore makes it irrelevant.
Although I feel the same, I advocate we should playtest a lot until we find how Tau is doing now. Many different lists against many different enemies.
I'm not trying to write them off too soon but I feel that outside some of the HQ options there are some issues.
An option I was considering was to have multiple shield lines with and ethereal and 2 Fireblades with 2 or 3 firewarriors and some vespid.
Yes, they got hit too hard. But that is spilt milk, and there are already tons of posts about that (here and other places).
Moving forward, have to get over our losses, and try to figure out how to make good games from what we have;
A few things to leverage;
* We have some of the best "look out sir" with drones out there - automatic passing and our extra wounds are cheap.
* The pathfinder drones are independent now, so you can move then around and help enhance other units (just be careful not to get them killed).
* Gun drones are actually a decent source of shots per point, now having TWO carbines per drone.
* Vespid a a bit better - especially since we don't have to (yet) pay for the strain leader upgrade.
* Longstrike is good - if you want to run a hammerhead.
* Seekers, while losing ease of use, do mortal wounds, and are only 5 points now.
* Missile pods, while a lot more expensive, put out serious damage aginst vehicles and MC's - almost better than other means.
* Railsides having two shots is very nice, and with marker support can drop enemy units.
* The ATS system is awesome on burst riptides and some other units.
* All our HQ units are a LOT more durable, and combined with photon grenades can actually survive a round in CC sometimes enough to get out (have drones close by).
* FLY keyword - we got lots of it.
* More weapons on suits - commanders and others - yeah, they are expensive, and no you should not spam them, but gives options.
Yeah, that is not a glowing list - and the things we lost are bad, but its what we got; now to make lists to get the most of it.
I agree with everything you say there. But there's one point that makes almost all of that moot. The points costs. I understand everything in the game went up in price for every army. But the amounts are ludicrous for Tau. You know the HRR you mentioned? A squad of three of those are over 700 points. It's so high it's funny.
riptides are BS5+ if they move.
Fly is only usefull if they actually survive an assault from an assault-oriented sqaud... which would be a freaking miracle.
We move slower than we used to. 8" is less than 6+2d6, not even counting the sheer utility and anti assault that provides.
This list goes on... it's all bittersweet...
Here is my indepth review after studying it quite a few times
Markerlights are actually more useful when using either a huge amount or small amount of Markerlights. As well as Markerlight support MSU gameplay. There are 2 approaches you should consider for using Markerlights. 1 Concentrated - In which you attempt to go for the 5 Light bonus. 2 Distributed - In which you try to get a single Light on everything you will shoot this phase. I think Distributed will be more useful most of the time, but don't be afraid to attempt a Concentrated against enemies with over 15-20 wounds.
Actually almost everything except for Darkstrider, and Shadowsun supports MSU gameplay.
Crisis Suit Flamer Squad might be okay. However Crisis Suits should be focused on anti tank. This means Cyclic Ion and Missile Pods. I would personally recommend Drone Controllers for Crisis Suits if you're bringing lots of Drones. Otherwise Advanced Targeting System is probably the most viable. Sadly Crisis Suits are about 10 points overcosted. I would also find a way to re-word Crisis Suits so that they may take 1 Support System without it costing a Weapon System.
Broadsides are still good, HYMP is about equal to MP Crisis. Rail Rifles are viable, and should be taken into consideration. I would personally recommend either Target Lock, Advanced Targeting System (for HYMP), or Early Warning Override. While I want to say Broadsides are overcosted, they are actually about appropriate for what they can do. They are probably our best core Anti Tank system.
Hammerhead is slightly below par, but on par after Longstrike. Longstrike himself is INSANITY and should always be taken if you're taking at least 1 Hammerhead.
Skyray is garbage. Maybe around 40-60 points overcosted. If you want to spam Skyray missiles you are probably better off just getting them in Hammerheads, Broadsides, and Piranhas.
HQ Spam, Our HQ options such as Fireblade, Darkstrider, Ethereals. Are all AMAZING and insanely cheap. You should take them all and not regret it.
The Commanders are alright, and support a more mobile gameplay. They will become a lot stronger when Crisis Suits receive a small point cost reduction.
Melee Tau! Our Melee has been insanely buffed. We are probably still the weakest Melee faction in the game, but don't be surprised if you do alright in melee now.
Gun Drones have INSANE potential. You should not feel shy about taking 2 Gun Drones on literally EVERYTHING that offers it.
Vespids are amazing! Have fun with them! Tho their downside is that they aren't really NEEDED. We have a ton of other options who do their job about equally.
Stealth Suits are also pretty good, since they were able to avoid the cost increase. Take Advanced Targeting Systems to maximize Burst Cannons. Drone Controller is also useful.
Devilfish is kinda of pointless. Don't take it. If you want a transport go buy a Tidewall. Tho, you don't really need any Transport for Tau. You're better off spending those 100 points on more Fire Warriors or Gun Drones.
Sniper Drones cost too much to be functional, you're probably better off just blowing up everything infront of the enemy character instead of trying to pick him off specifically. EDIT - Actually Sniper Drones might serve a purpose for filling up Heavy Slots (54 per slot, compared to ~150 for other options)
Because of Tau's MSU gameplay, and insanely cheap yet insanely useful HQs. You should be able to get Brigade Detachment every time. Even at 1000 points it should be possible and strong*. (Have not done the math for this)
MasterOfGaunts wrote: Is somebody else also planning on trying pulse carbines instead of pulse rifles on FW? I think I ll try it. Like the look of the gun much better and my models are magnetized anyways. Sure you have nearly half the range, but with assault armies being buffed I don't think that range will be such a big problem. They'll come to you :p. But the capability to run and shoot (BF-1) will help to keep my FW out of melee range as long as possible. What do you think? Pulse carbine finally worth it on FW?
Just bought another Start Collecting: am totally doing this. Pulse Blasters took a hard hit from the Nerf Bat, and just aren't worth it anymore.
Deadawake1347 wrote: Honestly what disappoints me most is that every functional list I make now relies on stationary gunlines hiding at the back edge of the table and making use of long range guns and rules that force models not to move in order to be successful.
In contrast, my list from last edition was made entirely of mobile units, the slowest moving being relentless Broadsides.
Also... Is there ever a reason to take Bodyguards anymore? Savior Protocols is straight up better, and for the same price as upgrading from regular Crisis Suits to Bodyguards, you can take the drones you need for it.
Eh... Broadsides haven't been able to take relentless since the good ol' times of 5th edition (well, and the short while in 6th edition where you could play with the 5th edition codex in 6th edition).
In fact, now with Target locks you can play the equivalent to those old relentless broadsides.
Talamare wrote: Broadsides are still good, HYMP is about equal to MP Crisis (HYMP is slightly better). Rail Rifles are viable, and should be taken into consideration. I would personally recommend either Target Lock, Advanced Targeting System (for HYMP), or Early Warning Override. While I want to say Broadsides are overcosted, they are actually about appropriate for what they can do. They are probably our best core Anti Tank system.
Previously they were severely overgunned for their durability (more than many MBC) which is why they managed to get away with very low prices. 8th edition seems to have set some kind of minimum distribution to avoid overly efficient units like the broadsides.
Honestly, my only complaint is that I would have preferred less output and cost instead of keeping their previous output compensated with a hike on durability and cost.
By point relation (Lower is better)
TriCy vs ATS || Overclock TriCy vs Overclock ATS
T6 - 48.00 vs 51.80 || 36.09 vs 38.73
T7 - 85.71 vs 86.00 || 48.00 vs 48.31
T8 - 128.0 vs 130.3 || 64.00 vs 64.66
Overall, I recommend Cyclic Ion for general purpose. 3 Shots means they are useful against infantry. S7 means they are amazing against light vehicles, and the option to Overclock makes them even useful against Heavy Vehicles. Triple Cyclic is slightly stronger than ATS Cyclic, but has considerably less Overheat chance. If you rather not be so close to the enemy, Missile Pods aren't much worse. Again I would recommend ATS, since it makes each suit cheaper without losing much efficiency. HYMP may have demonstrated lower number here, as well as are sluggish by comparison to Crisis Suits. However Broadsides have the advantage of actually using a Support system. So they can carry Early Warning Override or Drone Controller while still being very effective. I would personally recommend EWO. I don't think I would recommend any other gun for Crisis Suits.
Bringing tripion with a few marker drones just to get the 1 light bonus means you've got basically no reason to not overcharge too. No need to fear those 1 rolls.
doc1234 wrote: Bringing tripion with a few marker drones just to get the 1 light bonus means you've got basically no reason to not overcharge too. No need to fear those 1 rolls.
I'm not 100% certain that this math is correct, but if someone who would know how to do the math correctly would at least understand my logic.
You have a 1/6 chance of rolling a 1, and on a reroll you would again have a 1/6 chance.
So 1/6 * 1/6 = 1/36
So we can use that for the chance of rolling 1 twice.
Rules say, I always have to allocate wounds to wounded models first.
Scenario 1:
3 Crisis. 2 with burstcannons, one with Ion.
1 BC Crisis has a wound already and the Ion gets hot. is the BC slain, or does the Ion get the wound?
Scenario 2:
3 Ion Crisis.
I roll all hit rolls at the same time and get 3 mortal wounds.
Do I kill 1 Crisis or do have to roll the Hits seperately to see which suit gets a wound?
Rules say, I always have to allocate wounds to wounded models first.
Scenario 1:
3 Crisis. 2 with burstcannons, one with Ion.
1 BC Crisis has a wound already and the Ion gets hot. is the BC slain, or does the Ion get the wound?
Scenario 2:
3 Ion Crisis.
I roll all hit rolls at the same time and get 3 mortal wounds.
Do I kill 1 Crisis or do have to roll the Hits seperately to see which suit gets a wound?
Scenario 1 - It specifically states bearer of weapon, so the Burst Cannon is safe.
Scenario 2 - I suppose so, yea. If you rolled all the 3 suits together for 9d3 shots and roll 3 mortal wounds, you would have no idea which shots came from which suit.
This is easily countered by rolling each Suit individually which is legal. You would need to decide the target of each suit/each Ion before making any rolls. If you kill your target early, it's wasted shots.
Scenario 1.5 - Suppose you have the Burst Cannon Suit but it happens to have an Ion - 2x Burst and 1x Ion which has taken 2 damage. Then the other 2 suits are Trions. If you roll 7d3 attacks, then the Burst Cannon suit will now die if you roll a 1. However if you told your opponent that the Burst Cannon Suit is not overclocking then it wouldn't.
I think what you calculated is the chance of having atleast one double 1. So the chance there is not 10% for 1 MW but 10% for 1+ MW.
The weapon profile also suggest that you only can suffer 1 MW for each weapon fired even if all 3 of 1 weapon are 1s. So again we must split the rolls by weapon....
XeZZ wrote: I think what you calculated is the chance of having atleast one double 1. So the chance there is not 10% for 1 MW but 10% for 1+ MW.
The weapon profile also suggest that you only can suffer 1 MW for each weapon fired even if all 3 of 1 weapon are 1s. So again we must split the rolls by weapon....
Very true, if for example a single Ion Gun on a Crisis Suit with 3 Ion Guns rolls three 1s. Then you would only take a single mortal wound.
Despite having rolled 1 three times.
What I was aiming to figure out was roughly the chance of rolling 1 when you have reroll 1 chance.
Example: Full Crisis Ion Squad of 3.
I roll 3 mortal wounds.
I roll 3 D3 to allocate them.
I rolled: 1, 1, 3
--> First Crisis gets 1 Wound, Third Crisis gets a wound.
This only does not work, if you have different numbers of weapons on each suit.
If a Crisis Suit team of 3 with 3 Ion guns each
Crisis Suit Alpha rolls
1, 1, 1
2, 2, 2
2, 2, 2
Then he would take 1 wound. Despite rolling 3x 1s
Crisis Suit Beta rolls
1, 2, 2
1, 2, 2
1, 2, 2
He would suffer 3 wounds, Despite rolling the exact same amount of 1s as Crisis Suit Alpha
Crisis Suit Delta rolls
1, 1, 1
1, 1, 1
1, 1, 1
He would suffer 3 wounds, just like Beta.
If we had rolled all of these dice together, we would have a total of 15 1s rolls, which would be enough to kill the whole squad if rolled seperately. However we know that Alpha would survive taking only 1 wound.
If Beta had rolled exactly the same as Alpha, we would still have 15 1s rolls. Yet both Alpha and Beta would survive.
I don't think there is any reasonable way of trying to figure out the math after the rolling that wouldn't cause more problems.
Oh, and the player also picks up his dice and throws them into the trash.
As question can the riptide transfer mortal wounds from the nova reactor to drones?
The wording is that using the nova reactor gives you a mortal wound but the saviour protocol allows you to allocate *any* wound (of which a mortal one is a type) to a drone instead. That would imply you can offset the nova charge effects if you surround them with some cheap(er) drones?
Its kinda badly done in 8th. There is a lot of stuff that has to be rolled separately which really cracks play flow here. shooting 9 Weapons with 3 dice each and keeping track of hits/wounds is much more complicated then rolling 9 dice and maybe separate out the overcharges to a another die roll (roll a die if one get a MW no matter what)
Deadawake1347 wrote: Honestly what disappoints me most is that every functional list I make now relies on stationary gunlines hiding at the back edge of the table and making use of long range guns and rules that force models not to move in order to be successful.
In contrast, my list from last edition was made entirely of mobile units, the slowest moving being relentless Broadsides.
Also... Is there ever a reason to take Bodyguards anymore? Savior Protocols is straight up better, and for the same price as upgrading from regular Crisis Suits to Bodyguards, you can take the drones you need for it.
Eh... Broadsides haven't been able to take relentless since the good ol' times of 5th edition (well, and the short while in 6th edition where you could play with the 5th edition codex in 6th edition).
In fact, now with Target locks you can play the equivalent to those old relentless broadsides.
Talamare wrote: Broadsides are still good, HYMP is about equal to MP Crisis (HYMP is slightly better). Rail Rifles are viable, and should be taken into consideration. I would personally recommend either Target Lock, Advanced Targeting System (for HYMP), or Early Warning Override. While I want to say Broadsides are overcosted, they are actually about appropriate for what they can do. They are probably our best core Anti Tank system.
Previously they were severely overgunned for their durability (more than many MBC) which is why they managed to get away with very low prices. 8th edition seems to have set some kind of minimum distribution to avoid overly efficient units like the broadsides.
Honestly, my only complaint is that I would have preferred less output and cost instead of keeping their previous output compensated with a hike on durability and cost.
Farsight Enclaves Retaliation Cadre gave Broadsides relentless, as well as the ability to deepstrike. The list was quite fun, suits and drones and that was it, everything constantly in motion, and it took a fair amount of planning not to screw it up and get mauled.
As far as being over gunned... I think Space Marine Predators win that. Four lascannon shots for a hair over 200 points, on a fairly durable platform. The closest we can get is one slightly better shot for around 170, or two worse shots for about 180, depending on other gear. As far as antitank goes.. suicidal fusion suits are still the best bet, I think. With the new deepstrike it's not too hard to get that precision you need, and while you're not getting the reroll of the wound D6 your still getting 6-9 shots, which should put out some serious hurt. And you force the opponent to commit to their destruction, or suffer even worse next round.
Whirlwind wrote: As question can the riptide transfer mortal wounds from the nova reactor to drones?
The wording is that using the nova reactor gives you a mortal wound but the saviour protocol allows you to allocate *any* wound (of which a mortal one is a type) to a drone instead. That would imply you can offset the nova charge effects if you surround them with some cheap(er) drones?
That is my understanding so far. That could push Riptides into the usable range but only barely. While it'd be nice to shuck an 8pt drone for a heavy d6 S9/-3 every turn, 350pts is a huge amount to pay for them when you can readily get fusion elsewhere.
As for the detailed appraisal of units above, I agree with everything with the possible exceptions of the Commander and Hammerheads. I feel like Commanders may be our most efficient source of heavy firepower. While I haven't run any number to back that assertion up, it sure seems like 4 weapons or 3+ATS in the 150pt range on a platform that can't be singled out except by snipers could be very valuable. Similarly, a bunch of Hammerheads around Longstrike just need a single marker light to be ultra-reliable death machines. They don't appear to be the most durable of platforms, but at ~200pts, they're probably worth it. Ion cannons could be very interesting, indeed, in that situation.
Whirlwind wrote: As question can the riptide transfer mortal wounds from the nova reactor to drones?
The wording is that using the nova reactor gives you a mortal wound but the saviour protocol allows you to allocate *any* wound (of which a mortal one is a type) to a drone instead. That would imply you can offset the nova charge effects if you surround them with some cheap(er) drones?
While I said Yes, that you should be able to. I change my answer to No, you cannot. After reading some of the other armies. The game always specifies when it works against Mortal Wounds.
So instead of thinking of it as Mortal Wounds is a subset of Wounds. Think of it as if it said Mortal Bananas.
As for the detailed appraisal of units above, I agree with everything with the possible exceptions of the Commander and Hammerheads. I feel like Commanders may be our most efficient source of heavy firepower. While I haven't run any number to back that assertion up, it sure seems like 4 weapons or 3+ATS in the 150pt range on a platform that can't be singled out except by snipers could be very valuable. Similarly, a bunch of Hammerheads around Longstrike just need a single marker light to be ultra-reliable death machines. They don't appear to be the most durable of platforms, but at ~200pts, they're probably worth it. Ion cannons could be very interesting, indeed, in that situation.
I think I was a little harsh on Commanders, at BS2 for only 30 points over Crisis Suits... They are actually probably GOD TIER...
Actually... Screw having ANY Crisis Suits... Spam Commanders. (Tho, seriously I will do the math for them in a few hours)
I already did the math for Hammerheads... They are strictly worse than RailRifle Broadsides. However Hammerhead under Longstrikes buffs is on par with them RailRifle Broadside. Longstrike's personal Hammerhead is INSANE, way above RailRifles and Hammerheads. So as I said, if you want exactly 1 Hammerhead, Make it a Longrails.
Whirlwind wrote: As question can the riptide transfer mortal wounds from the nova reactor to drones?
The wording is that using the nova reactor gives you a mortal wound but the saviour protocol allows you to allocate *any* wound (of which a mortal one is a type) to a drone instead. That would imply you can offset the nova charge effects if you surround them with some cheap(er) drones?
While I said Yes, that you should be able to. I change my answer to No, you cannot. After reading some of the other armies. The game always specifies when it works against Mortal Wounds.
So instead of thinking of it as Mortal Wounds is a subset of Wounds. Think of it as if it said Mortal Bananas.
But then why the reference to *any* wounds in the rules. Why not just state wounds as that would make things clearer. By stating *any* it implies there is more than one type of wounds (which there is) and hence they apply to both.
Bit of food for thought, but it seems like Vespid are flat out better than breachers now right? Both being Assault 2, but the vespid have more consistent (and longer) range without needing to pile into a devilfish repeatedly to get inside of 5 inches.
A unit i'v not seen mentioned here yet is the Coldstar Commander. with a 20"/40" move, and the equivalent of a double burst cannon, a missile pod, plus two system slots, it seems like it could be a fun one to use. Slap on ATS, split fire with the missiles. Possibly throw on a shield as the second system to have a T5, 3+/4/++ HQ that iirc the Wounds right can still hide behind other units. And the 20" move should possibly let it get right around hidden HQs to pelt them with S5 AP-1 shots instead of having to gun down the unit in front of them with almost complete impunity.
I could't resist and made my own excel spreadsheet to make comparing the different weapon loadouts easier. I would also like to add some graphs, but that's as far as my excel knowledge goes :-P Point costs are for 1 Crisis with the corresponding loadout.
Ps: please tell me If I made any mistakes. Also, I didn't know how to incorporate choosing the higher Damage roll for fusion blasters, so I didn't include it. They don't seem to be worth taking anyways :(
Points Relation (lower is better)
Tripod || Trion vs Trion Overclocked
T6 - 28.10 || 33.17 vs 24.86
T7 - 46.84 || 55.20 vs 31.08
T8 - 70.27 || 83.13 vs 41.44
Kauyon? Mont'ka?
More like Monat~
To be clear, your "points relation" number is points paid per wound dealt, correct? I know you ran similar stats for Crisis Suits against MEQs, and with a little quick-and-dirty adaptation of what you've done here, it appears that Commanders dramatically outperform their more junior counterparts. Am I misinterpreting anything?
However Hammerhead under Longstrikes buffs is on par with them RailRifle Broadside
In terms of damage output, sure, but Hammerheads are far more durable. That counts for a ton.
Aeri wrote: I could't resist and made my own excel spreadsheet to make comparing the different weapon loadouts easier.
I would also like to add some graphs, but that's as far as my excel knowledge goes :-P
Point costs are for 1 Crisis with the corresponding loadout.
Ps: please tell me If I made any mistakes. Also, I didn't know how to incorporate choosing the higher Damage roll for fusion blasters, so I didn't include it. They don't seem to be worth taking anyways :(
Am I right to conclude that Plasma Rifle outside RF range and 2 Missile Pods + ATS (vs 1 wound) are the worst cost-effective options, while CIBs are the best?
Average Damager per Point for that category. So (Damage Output * 100) / Points. It's multiplied by 100 just to have a more readable figure.
e.g.
The 2+ category averages all the values in the row for all toughnesses.
The T6+ category averags all the values with T6 and up for all armor saves.
On a bell curve overcharge is better, but it doesn't seem entirely worth it.
By the way, what that chart teaches me is that you should use an ATS on your Commander and dedicate a couple marker sources to him to get the benefits of a MT. Have your cake and eat it, too! Overcharged CIBs sound pretty darn nice when you can reroll your 1s.
I believe, using your numbers
T6 - 38.29
T7 - 63.67
78 - 95.51
That roughly translates into more efficient, point per point, even if you don't take into account the extra weapons the Broadside takes are also benefitting from the ATS - that can include SMS, with Plasma Rifles costing and benefitting less.
Or you might consider a Broadside with EWO. Slightly less efficient when firing the HYMP and only the HYMP per shooting phase, but the HYMP might be getting an extra shooting phase or two (or, minimally, provide strong incentive to make the 9" no Deepstrike Zone into a <12" I Told You So zone for the enemy).
A HYMP Broadside with a CDS has an advantage when making Overwatch attacks - almost doubling its efficiency in that phase.
MilkmanAl wrote: To be clear, your "points relation" number is points paid per wound dealt, correct? I know you ran similar stats for Crisis Suits against MEQs, and with a little quick-and-dirty adaptation of what you've done here, it appears that Commanders dramatically outperform their more junior counterparts. Am I misinterpreting anything?
Correct, Commanders are vastly better than Crisis Suits. Crisis Suits are currently overcosted garbage. I would recommend Stealth Suits with Drone Controller and ATS. They are slightly weaker than Crisis Suits, but are really cheap per squad. As well as putting a Drone Controller on one of them doesn't cause that Suit to lose most of it's effectiveness. I would recommend taking as many Commanders as possible. The only viable thing Crisis Suits do better than Commanders is spamming Flamers.
Finally the way of the 'Monat' is similar to Kuayon or Mont'ka, but instead it means a Personal Path to the Greater Good.
However Hammerhead under Longstrikes buffs is on par with them RailRifle Broadside
In terms of damage output, sure, but Hammerheads are far more durable. That counts for a ton.
Arguably more durable, while it's true that they have higher base stats. Broadsides have an insane amount of extra wounds due to Drones absorbing fire. As I also said in this thread, Gun Drones are INSANITY!!! You should take as many as possible.
Vector Strike wrote: Am I right to conclude that Plasma Rifle outside RF range and 2 Missile Pods + ATS (vs 1 wound) are the worst cost-effective options, while CIBs are the best?
No, Plasma Rifle is pretty garbage. Only really useful against targets that the rest of the army absolutely DEMOLISHES.
Missile Pod+ATS is amazing because it hurts Tanks while having a ton of range.
CIB is the best overall and will be the one everyone spams.
CIB is the new Plasma Rifle, but better.
The only useful Crisis Suit weapons are Flamer, CIB, Missile Pod, and Fusion Blaster.
Altho ABFG is really cute, even if it's mathematically ineffective.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Daedalus81 wrote: I don't see a good reason to overcharge a Cyclic Ion Raker - what am I missing?
The D6 shots instead of flat 6 seems like a bad trade.
I think the problem with the CIR is that they figured the same idea for the CIB would work with it.
However, what they didn't realize is that 1d3 is effectively only 1 less shot than 3. While 1d6 is about 3 less shots than 6.
The only time that it would make sense to Overclock the CIR would be against Toughness 8, where S7 would be at a penalty...
Aeri wrote: I could't resist and made my own excel spreadsheet to make comparing the different weapon loadouts easier.
I would also like to add some graphs, but that's as far as my excel knowledge goes :-P
Point costs are for 1 Crisis with the corresponding loadout.
Ps: please tell me If I made any mistakes. Also, I didn't know how to incorporate choosing the higher Damage roll for fusion blasters, so I didn't include it. They don't seem to be worth taking anyways :(
Am I right to conclude that Plasma Rifle outside RF range and 2 Missile Pods + ATS (vs 1 wound) are the worst cost-effective options, while CIBs are the best?
Correct.
Plasma only shines against 1 wound Models in rapidfire range, singe the MPs and CIBs extra damage is wasted against those.
What Plasma Needs is a damage modifier or at least D2 to be worth the risk of getting so close. Then it would outperform the CIBs in Close range and you had to Make the tactical descission.
Singe Terminators got 1 extra wound Plasma cant even serve for hunting those...
There is 1 Thing about Plasma that is appealing.
Because of it's high AP value it is quite relliable, while CIB and MP rely on volume of fire. Might bei worth considdering...
Also: MP ans CIB values always assume the model has atleast 3 wounds. There is 1 table for MP against single wound Models in my sheet. You can See that ist becomes very expensive against those. Might be worth comparing Plasma/MP/CIB against 2w Models.
I've been playing around with stuff I have in my collection and every time I removed a tank it just got better (I don't have many suits, I played a fire warrior focussed army in devilfish). I eventually came up with the below and.... it scares me.
This setup makes 288 S5 shots, rerolling 1s to hit a turn at 36 inches. 432 at 18 inches. It has some small Kroot and Pathfinder squads to scout forwards and screen out T1 charges and can easily make sure there is no 9" gap in their own deployment zone whilst still maintaining all benefits, additionally, the grav-inhibitor drones make those long charges very tough.
With just the pulse rifles at maximum range, they are taking half the wounds off a Knight per turn. They wipe out 50+ marines, nuke land raiders, kill over 100 orcs/stealers/etc. And then they still have 32 S7 AP-1 shots that do d3 wounds. Also, they have a 4+/6++ followed by a 6+ to ignore any wounds they suffer, making them pretty durable for a 1 wound guy and you need to kill a lot of them to drop their effectiveness. Sure it relies heavily on the characters to work correctly, but it can protect them from snipers with shield drones long enough for the torrent of fire to remove the snipers.
Oh did I mention it has 10 CPs? Nice little bonus.
So what are the major weaknesses of this army I missed?
Battallion Detachment (860pts)
HQ(88 pts)
Ethereal 46 Pts
Equalisers
Cadre Fire Blade 42 Pts
Troops(772 Pts)
12 Strike Team Firewarriors 136 Pts
2 Missile Pod Turrets
12 Strike Team Firewarriors 136 Pts
2 Missile Pod Turrets
12 Strike Team Firewarriors 136 Pts
2 Missile Pod Turrets
12 Strike Team Firewarriors 136 Pts
2 Missile Pod Turrets
12 Strike Team Firewarriors 114 Pts
Marker Drone, Guardian Drone
12 Strike Team Firewarriors 114 Pts
Marker Drone, Guardian Drone
Battallion Detachment (860 pts)
HQ(88 pts)
Ethereal 46 Pts
Equalisers
Cadre Fire Blade 42 Pts
Troops(772 Pts)
12 Strike Team Firewarriors 136 Pts
2 Missile Pod Turrets
12 Strike Team Firewarriors 136 Pts
2 Missile Pod Turrets
12 Strike Team Firewarriors 136 Pts
2 Missile Pod Turrets
12 Strike Team Firewarriors 136 Pts
2 Missile Pod Turrets
12 Strike Team Firewarriors 114 Pts
Marker Drone, Guardian Drone
12 Strike Team Firewarriors 114 Pts
Marker Drone, Guardian Drone
Is that 174 models? my only critique would be to remove 2 firewarriors from each squad and replace them with the 2 gundrones each strike team is permitted to take (4 strength 5 shots each!) since they are tougher, faster and killier for the same points, and they will provide more ablative wounds for the ethereals and fireblades necessary for the list to work because every sniper will be focusing them down. Apart from that, the list looks really good, and I do believe swarmy foot T'au will be the ideal way to run them! Cheers!
It is! Hmmm. the gun drones might be a good choice. I have plenty lying around. And it's 5 shots each when near a fireblade, at a range of 24". Will have to find the right balance for drones vs Firewarriors. That is a steadily increasing storm of fire though you do not want to be within 18" of it!
Drager wrote: It is! Hmmm. the gun drones might be a good choice. I have plenty lying around. And it's 5 shots each when near a fireblade, at a range of 24". Will have to find the right balance for drones vs Firewarriors. That is a steadily increasing storm of fire though you do not want to be within 18" of it!
It's 6 shots, they have 2 different guns. Each gun gets a shot.
Where are you getting 288 shots at max range from ? Fireblades only give you an extra shot at half range.
Also for every Fire Warrior unit to get the extra 6" range they all have to be within 3" of 1 of your 2 pulse accelerator drones - that's either not possible or you're giving a golden consolidation opportunity to any durable CC unit out there.
The drones themselves are all separate units after deployment and cannot in turn trigger savoir protocols (that protects inf and battlesuits only) so expecting the fancy drones to be alive after the first turn is also unrealistic, they can be shot by anything trivially.
And finally with that many deployments you're almost certainly going 2nd. With such a static list that doesn't seem like a great plan either.
Making an error that's where! OK, so it's only 144 shots at max range (36) and a ridiculous number (432) at 18". My assumption was that they would be firing without marker light support, though.
Let me do some recalculation. It drops it to like 50 stealers or such dead at long range (cause still going to assume no marker light support), obviously a lot more at short range. Against a big target, I can probably get a good deal of marker hits so let's assume I get the +1 to hit. That takes it to about 6 wounds against a Knight class enemy at max range from rifles, plus another 4 from missiles. Still decent. Obviously, if things come close it gets worse for them, but at range you are still crippling/destroying single heavy targets or deleting multiple squads. I'll take it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The fancy drones are individual models which make them trivial to keep out of sight. The CC unit would have to be exceptionally durable and then is likely to only engage the front rank at first, wipe them and move into the second. The further back ranks can then fire when Rank 2 falls back. It's not hard to get 6 units within 3" of a static drone. That gives you a 7" diameter circle into which you must have 6 models. Not a big ask.
Saviour protocols won't protect the drones, true, but they will protect the characters and its really only the pulse accelerator that is very important.
Drager wrote: I've been playing around with stuff I have in my collection and every time I removed a tank it just got better (I don't have many suits, I played a fire warrior focussed army in devilfish). I eventually came up with the below and.... it scares me.
This setup makes 288 S5 shots, rerolling 1s to hit a turn at 36 inches. 432 at 18 inches. It has some small Kroot and Pathfinder squads to scout forwards and screen out T1 charges and can easily make sure there is no 9" gap in their own deployment zone whilst still maintaining all benefits, additionally, the grav-inhibitor drones make those long charges very tough.
With just the pulse rifles at maximum range, they are taking half the wounds off a Knight per turn. They wipe out 50+ marines, nuke land raiders, kill over 100 orcs/stealers/etc. And then they still have 32 S7 AP-1 shots that do d3 wounds. Also, they have a 4+/6++ followed by a 6+ to ignore any wounds they suffer, making them pretty durable for a 1 wound guy and you need to kill a lot of them to drop their effectiveness. Sure it relies heavily on the characters to work correctly, but it can protect them from snipers with shield drones long enough for the torrent of fire to remove the snipers.
Oh did I mention it has 10 CPs? Nice little bonus.
So what are the major weaknesses of this army I missed?
Battallion Detachment (860pts)
HQ(88 pts)
Ethereal 46 Pts
Equalisers
Cadre Fire Blade 42 Pts
Troops(772 Pts)
12 Strike Team Firewarriors 136 Pts
2 Missile Pod Turrets
12 Strike Team Firewarriors 136 Pts
2 Missile Pod Turrets
12 Strike Team Firewarriors 136 Pts
2 Missile Pod Turrets
12 Strike Team Firewarriors 136 Pts
2 Missile Pod Turrets
12 Strike Team Firewarriors 114 Pts
Marker Drone, Guardian Drone
12 Strike Team Firewarriors 114 Pts
Marker Drone, Guardian Drone
Battallion Detachment (860 pts)
HQ(88 pts)
Ethereal 46 Pts
Equalisers
Cadre Fire Blade 42 Pts
Troops(772 Pts)
12 Strike Team Firewarriors 136 Pts
2 Missile Pod Turrets
12 Strike Team Firewarriors 136 Pts
2 Missile Pod Turrets
12 Strike Team Firewarriors 136 Pts
2 Missile Pod Turrets
12 Strike Team Firewarriors 136 Pts
2 Missile Pod Turrets
12 Strike Team Firewarriors 114 Pts
Marker Drone, Guardian Drone
12 Strike Team Firewarriors 114 Pts
Marker Drone, Guardian Drone
144 shots at 36:
Around 72 will hit on average.
Around 12 more hits with re-roll
Of those 84 shots the wounds will be:
T3 or 4: Around 55 wounds
T5: Around 42 wounds
T6, 7, 8 or 9: Around 28 wounds.
Assuming the majority of models are in the 3 or 4 bracket:
2+ save: 10 unsaved wounds
3+ save: 18 unsaved wounds
4+ save: 28 unsaved wounds
5+ save: 36 unsaved wounds
6+ save: 46 unsaved wounds
Whilst those numbers are awesome in theory, bear in mind a couple of things:
Firstly that is more or less your whole army shooting at 1 unit (maybe 2) to delete them (which is only possible maybe once in a game and isn't likely with terrain blocking LoS).
Secondly you're going to take losses which will reduce the number of shots.
You can roughly double/triple the numbers at half range.
It is very dependant on not moving and key characters.
The average for a single squad at 36" is (2+, 3+, 4+):
7 hits, 4-5 wounds and 0-1 unsaved, 1-2 unsaved, 2-3 unsaved.
at 18" (triple tap):
21 hits, 12-15 wounds. and 0-3 unsaved, 3-6 unsaved, 6-9 unsaved.
I like the list and concept but i feel like this kind of list only goes to emphasis that Tau now have to rely on weight of shots and spamming gimmicks to really compete in 8th.
Dont get me wrong it's powerful at danger close stages.
The fancy drones are individual models which make them trivial to keep out of sight. The CC unit would have to be exceptionally durable and then is likely to only engage the front rank at first, wipe them and move into the second. The further back ranks can then fire when Rank 2 falls back. It's not hard to get 6 units within 3" of a static drone. That gives you a 7" diameter circle into which you must have 6 models. Not a big ask.
Saviour protocols won't protect the drones, true, but they will protect the characters and its really only the pulse accelerator that is very important.
Not quite, they would form a small group together.
So each Grav + Accel drone would for a 2 Drone unit. Meaning they would need to travel together.
The downside to this is that the Grav Drone is a super high priority target for an assault army. Then again... Grav Drones don't need LoS... So I suppose it's easy to keep them hidden in a building.
Troops <-- Highly Desired
Strike Team
Breacher Team
Kroot Carnivores
For trying to get a Brigade, I feel that we won't have any issues with HQ and Troops since those are really strong for us.
Fast attack is also a non-issue since Pathfinders, Drones, and Vespids are all really strong.
Our Heavy options are arguably some of our best Anti Tank options, so they aren't undesired. However, they are really expensive making it a little difficult.
Our Elites are currently our weakest point. Crisis Suits are worse than spamming Monat. Riptide is pretty overnerfed. Kroot........ Stealth Suits might be our best option for their relatively low cost, but it's not like they are really desired.
Final option is just to take Sniper Drone Marksman, they are only 24 points each and count as a slot.
XeZZ wrote: Its kinda badly done in 8th. There is a lot of stuff that has to be rolled separately which really cracks play flow here. shooting 9 Weapons with 3 dice each and keeping track of hits/wounds is much more complicated then rolling 9 dice and maybe separate out the overcharges to a another die roll (roll a die if one get a MW no matter what)
Perhaps consider getting dice of different colors? I have red, white, black, yellow, blue, clear....
I like the combo of using the Stealth Suit homing beacon to drop a triple flamer crisis team in range and just melt something. Kind of expensive, but really fun to roll 9d6 s4 hits
Whirlwind wrote: As question can the riptide transfer mortal wounds from the nova reactor to drones?
The wording is that using the nova reactor gives you a mortal wound but the saviour protocol allows you to allocate *any* wound (of which a mortal one is a type) to a drone instead. That would imply you can offset the nova charge effects if you surround them with some cheap(er) drones?
The nova reactor makes the riptide "suffer a mortal wound". The saviour drones allow you to "allocate" wounds on them. Allocating wounds is a specific activity mentioned in the fight and shooting phases in the main rulebook, at a determined point of the turn - as such, assigning a wound to a model doesn't intrinsically imply that you are "allocating" that wound, and as such, they can't be redirected to your drones.
So how do you guys feel about Commander spam? While not incredibly durable for the cost, being characters provides a fair amount of protection, and they aren't terribly easily sniped. As was shown, they also spew a ton of reliable firepower. Maybe a Supreme Command detachment plus a Brigade for a total of 5 Commanders might be useful. Missile pods would likely be my weapon of choice to maximize damage at range. Toss in a couple Kroot units to stymie charges and some Pathfinders. Gun Drones and FW to taste for horde control, and voila!
So is 2000 really the middle ground for matched play? That takes the sting off some of these point increases.
I'm really curious how good the coldstar would be as an assassin unit. Straight up 40" advancement pretty much guarantees you optimum angle on whatever you want. Include the TL to do so with impunity, but what else? I feel like even with a shield generator he's going to get himself in serious trouble.
Also, loving all the math in this thread, feel like I've dodged a bullet trying to make plasma work. Keep it up!
MilkmanAl wrote: So how do you guys feel about Commander spam? While not incredibly durable for the cost, being characters provides a fair amount of protection, and they aren't terribly easily sniped. As was shown, they also spew a ton of reliable firepower. Maybe a Supreme Command detachment plus a Brigade for a total of 5 Commanders might be useful. Missile pods would likely be my weapon of choice to maximize damage at range. Toss in a couple Kroot units to stymie charges and some Pathfinders. Gun Drones and FW to taste for horde control, and voila!
They honestly aren't even very expensive for what they do.
It's only 34 points + the cost of the additional gun.
I'm really curious how good the coldstar would be as an assassin unit. Straight up 40" advancement pretty much guarantees you optimum angle on whatever you want. Include the TL to do so with impunity, but what else? I feel like even with a shield generator he's going to get himself in serious trouble.
I think they should consider making Coldstar into a unique character. The name is cool enough. His unique aspects are cool enough.
FARSIGHT
SHADOWSUN
COLDSTAR
Fits right in!
As far as support systems go, he basically NEEDS to bring ATS to be a threat. So the question is TL or Shield(or even Stims). You don't really need to move 40" every turn. Moving 20" is more than enough usually. Even if you do move 40", he still hits on 3+.
I haven't really taken a super hard look at the index that is at the FLGS yet but am just coming back to 40k after playing fantasy and Kings of war for a number of years. Last time I played was in 6th Ed but never really built up my Tau to much.
I really wanted to go with a suit heavy army and have 9 XV8 suits. From what I'm reading the suits now are a little overpriced (especially broadsides).
I'm reading that the Riptide is also pretty expensive? What would you equipt a Riptide with if you did want to use one? Never even played with a tide before but picked one up a few months back cause I wanted to get back in and now thinking it was not a wise choice in 8th?
Was thinking of going a ton of XV8 suits(mix in cyclic ion blaster, missile pods and maybe a few fusion blasters?), 1 Riptide, maybe 2 units of 12 firewarriors, possibly a squad of stealth suits and Probably a hammerhead with railrifle and a piranha for fun! Not sure if that would be viable at all tho. Also where are the points in the index? When I was flipping through it at the FLGS it just showed the power level in the top left for each unit but didn't say anything about the points? Those in the main rulebook or?
OK so after looking at the basics it's looking like GW wants less battlesuits on the table, which were basically the best part of the army. That is a real bummer as they are great models. But it also looks like other armies saw some significant price hikes when it comes to monstrous creatures and vehicles so I guess, in a competitive sense, it's a bit of a wash. But the nerf to markerlights seems to make Riptides near unplayable if you want to move them - as a 5+ BS is no go for a 350+ point unit. So am I to understand that anything with a heavy weapon for Tau, for practical purposes, is just stationary artillery? You really aren't going to want to move them if they start with a 4+ BS and it goes to 5+. Have the rules for the shield wall changed or can I start placing my heavy weapon suits on them to negate the penalty to move and shoot?
Watching the Tau and Khorne matched play...Kroot charging
bloodletters...lol. Well this might be a thing...
Compared to Crisis Suits. Since we know that ATS is best, we are just going to compare ATS Crisis vs ATS Stealth.
Crisis 42 + Burst 10x2 + ATS 8 = 70 pts for 2 Bursts, or 35 points each vs Stealth Suits 38 points each.
Single Suit
ATS - 8 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 1.33
Point Relation - 52.63
3 Crisis Suits will equal 6 Stealth Suits in number of Shots.
228 points vs 210 points, for 18 points difference...
You get more wounds, but with less toughness. As well Stealth Suit additional Stealth defenses. Oh and the option of having 2 different groups running around. Overall Burst Crisis Suits are probably not worth it. What about Vespids?
Core 15 x4
Core 8 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 2/3 = 1.77
Point Relation
Core - 33.75
Also to reach 210 points of Vespids, we end up with 14 Vespids.
Which is 2 more wounds than Stealth Suits, and 5 more wounds than Crisis Suits. Same T as Stealth Suits, but lower Toughness than Crisis Suits. Finally lower saves than either.
Edit - Let's check Gun Drones too!
28 Drones * 8 points each = 224 points
28 Drones = 56 * 1/3 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 4.18
With Drone Controller = 56 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 6.22 (Let's say this is 234 points, the cost of 2 Drone Controllers)
... and Fire Warriors... which is actually the exact same cost as Gun Drones
and have BS equal to Gun Drones with Drone Controller... So it's really just copy paste... 56 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 6.22
Point Relative - Lower is Better!
Gun Drones = 53.58
Gun Drones with Drone Controller = 37.62
Fire Warriors = 36.01
New Summary... Just use like the extra stuff in your army to kill MEQ. Don't use Battlesuits to kill MEQ.
ATS Airburst - 2 * 3.5 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 0.87
ATS Flamers - 2 * 3.5 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 1.75
... This is actually a little surprising
Point Relation
Airburst - 80
Flamers - 38
IMPORTANT EDIT!! I did the math for Gun Drones assuming they had 1 Pulse Carbine, they apparently have 2!!! Pulse Carbines!!!!!! FOR 8 POINTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 28 Drones * 8 points each = 224 points
28 Drones = 112 * 1/3 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 8.29
With Drone Controller = 112 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 12.44
Point Relation
Normal = 27.02
DC = 18.81
This is so massive that there is basically no reason why you should use anything except for Gun Drones for killing MEQ.
Crisis Suits will literally exist as Anti Tank Firing Base and to carry Drone Controllers.
Supports the flamer love I've been feeling. Factor in the autohit on Overwatch and flamer suits are much more than just a niche configuration, imo.
Bach wrote: OK so after looking at the basics it's looking like GW wants less battlesuits on the table, which were basically the best part of the army. That is a real bummer as they are great models. But it also looks like other armies saw some significant price hikes when it comes to monstrous creatures and vehicles so I guess, in a competitive sense, it's a bit of a wash. But the nerf to markerlights seems to make Riptides near unplayable if you want to move them - as a 5+ BS is no go for a 350+ point unit. So am I to understand that anything with a heavy weapon for Tau, for practical purposes, is just stationary artillery? You really aren't going to want to move them if they start with a 4+ BS and it goes to 5+. Have the rules for the shield wall changed or can I start placing my heavy weapon suits on them to negate the penalty to move and shoot?
Watching the Tau and Khorne matched play...Kroot charging
bloodletters...lol. Well this might be a thing...
Boniface wrote: Does any one feel Tau got the nerf bat a bit too hard?
I can't help but feel the a lot of army is largely irrelevant now with mostly small unit count and poor BS.
They have some nice stuff like drones saviour protocolsand some of the suit systems,but with the overly heavy nerf to markers mostly they just miss.
I don't want to moan too much but feel like we got a bit too shafted in places.
I don't mind some of it, I think the markers +1bs is too hard to get and therefore makes it irrelevant.
Most of our units hit on 4+, so that's a 50/50 chance to hit from the get-go.
With 1 Markerlight in place, being able to re-roll 1s that chance increases
With 5 Markerlights in place, we hit on 3+ and can re-roll 1s
So, how do you come to the conclusion that we "mostly miss"?
The only thing that hits on 5+ are drones and they can benefit from a Drone Controller, putting them in line with the other stuff we have.
We also have Characters who hit on 2+, two of which come with Markerlight. Pathfinders hit Markerlights on 4+, Marker Drones on 4+ even after moving, if a drone controller is nearby.
How is landing 5 hits on 4+ too hard to get? 10 Pathfinders will do that for you on average, not to mention Darkstrider (2+), Cadre Fireblades(2+), Droneports(2+/3+/4+), Skyrays (3+) and Firesight Marksman (3+).
I calculated the armour safe of the target like this: (2-APVALUE/6), for example : (2- -3/6) This was meant to simulate an armour safe of 3+ modified by AP. Since 5th grade math has been a while I completely forgot, that I have to use brackets to modify the armour safe properly, changing it to this: ((2-APVALUE)/6)
The difference with an AP-3 weapon: 2- -3/6 = 2- -0.5 = 2.5 while it should be (2- -3)/6 = 5/6
This actually makes a huge difference in effectiveness, but see for yourself: Missilepods seem massively overcosted and only worth considering, if you want to stay at great range
Regarding a Commander with plasma v CIB: 4 CIB suits are roughly the same points as 5 plasma. 48 shots v 40+ extra wounds/model. Seems pretty well balanced.
Boniface wrote: Does any one feel Tau got the nerf bat a bit too hard?
I can't help but feel the a lot of army is largely irrelevant now with mostly small unit count and poor BS.
They have some nice stuff like drones saviour protocolsand some of the suit systems,but with the overly heavy nerf to markers mostly they just miss.
I don't want to moan too much but feel like we got a bit too shafted in places.
I don't mind some of it, I think the markers +1bs is too hard to get and therefore makes it irrelevant.
Most of our units hit on 4+, so that's a 50/50 chance to hit from the get-go.
With 1 Markerlight in place, being able to re-roll 1s that chance increases
With 5 Markerlights in place, we hit on 3+ and can re-roll 1s
So, how do you come to the conclusion that we "mostly miss"?
The only thing that hits on 5+ are drones and they can benefit from a Drone Controller, putting them in line with the other stuff we have.
We also have Characters who hit on 2+, two of which come with Markerlight. Pathfinders hit Markerlights on 4+, Marker Drones on 4+ even after moving, if a drone controller is nearby.
How is landing 5 hits on 4+ too hard to get? 10 Pathfinders will do that for you on average, not to mention Darkstrider (2+), Cadre Fireblades(2+), Droneports(2+/3+/4+), Skyrays (3+) and Firesight Marksman (3+).
I think I'm just a little sore that a mostly shooty only army is only bs4 with now less options to boost bs.
I often compare Tau to Necrons (I blame Dawn of War) and often feel the BS values on those armies should be swapped.
Necrons have loads of other factors to offset lower BS such as getting up again, potentially larger numbers, general use weapons that reduce save.
Compare that to Tau (now) where we have small expensive elite units that only have 50/50 shooting. In previous versions it wasn't as much of an issue because BS increases were easier.
I realise I have to change my army setup and strategy (which isn't an issue) I just don't feel the latest Tau iteration is entirely 'right'.
I think I'm just a little sore that a mostly shooty only army is only bs4 with now less options to boost bs.
I often compare Tau to Necrons (I blame Dawn of War) and often feel the BS values on those armies should be swapped.
Necrons have loads of other factors to offset lower BS such as getting up again, potentially larger numbers, general use weapons that reduce save.
Compare that to Tau (now) where we have small expensive elite units that only have 50/50 shooting. In previous versions it wasn't as much of an issue because BS increases were easier.
I realise I have to change my army setup and strategy (which isn't an issue) I just don't feel the latest Tau iteration is entirely 'right'.
I understand your problem, but I don't think it is really that bad. Fire Warriors are pretty cheap and, when buffed, can unleash quite the firestorm
As you said, it will come down to using different list archetypes than before. The all suits approach took a hit, but fielding multiple Commanders (Supreme Command Detachment) does seem to be a good alternative in that case.
Aeri wrote: Silly me, I made a mistake in my spreadsheet.
I calculated the armour safe of the target like this: (2-APVALUE/6), for example : (2- -3/6)
This was meant to simulate an armour safe of 3+ modified by AP.
Since 5th grade math has been a while I completely forgot, that I have to use brackets to modify the armour safe properly, changing it to this: ((2-APVALUE)/6)
The difference with an AP-3 weapon: 2- -3/6 = 2- -0.5 = 2.5 while it should be (2- -3)/6 = 5/6
This actually makes a huge difference in effectiveness, but see for yourself:
Missilepods seem massively overcosted and only worth considering, if you want to stay at great range
Ps: if you find any mistake, please notify me!
That sheet is incredibly useful. Thank you! Any chance you can run the same numbers for Commanders and see what shakes out? Also, I think you've mistakenly used 4 hard points instead of the 3 Crisis suits have.
Aeri wrote: Silly me, I made a mistake in my spreadsheet.
I calculated the armour safe of the target like this: (2-APVALUE/6), for example : (2- -3/6)
This was meant to simulate an armour safe of 3+ modified by AP.
Since 5th grade math has been a while I completely forgot, that I have to use brackets to modify the armour safe properly, changing it to this: ((2-APVALUE)/6)
The difference with an AP-3 weapon: 2- -3/6 = 2- -0.5 = 2.5 while it should be (2- -3)/6 = 5/6
This actually makes a huge difference in effectiveness, but see for yourself:
Missilepods seem massively overcosted and only worth considering, if you want to stay at great range
Ps: if you find any mistake, please notify me!
The section that should be for three fusion blasters with ATS you have listed as plasma rifles. The numbers also seem a bit weird on those ones.
Not sure if this has been discussed, but I have a questions regarding special characters/Septs.
So I am starting a Farisight army, mostly because I love Farsight and all the fluff that goes along with him. Red is also a nice colour scheme, and suits are my jam.
However, I also really like Longstrike and his ruleset. Having him along another Hammerhead or two could be really powerful in the backline, taking care of vehicles.
This is where the problem comes in, using a Farsight list, with "Farsight" as the Sept (or would it be Vior'la..? Is Farsight Enclaves even a Sept?), could I even take Longstrike in the first place? And if I can, does he have to be T'au Sept, along with the Hammerheads he would support? The "Fire Caste Exemplar" rule says he only buffs nearby T'au Sept Hammerheads.
I think the Sept system is strange. I can understand Chaos legions and Space Marine Chapters, but do Tau Septs really differ that much in tactics and style of warfare? I know Farsight does his own thing with his enclaves, but are they technically a Sept?
MilkmanAl wrote: That sheet is incredibly useful. Thank you! Any chance you can run the same numbers for Commanders and see what shakes out? Also, I think you've mistakenly used 4 hard points instead of the 3 Crisis suits have.
Thanks a lot, Commander will certainly come this evening or tomorrow.
Crisis can carry up to 3 Weapons + 1 Support system or 2 Weapons and 2 Support Systems.
Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
The section that should be for three fusion blasters with ATS you have listed as plasma rifles. The numbers also seem a bit weird on those ones.
That's a simple naming error, the values are actually correct.
The numbers seem off, because the additional AP value does not bring any benefits against MEQ units, since you can't get worse than no safe :-P
Therefore, 3 FB with ATS are actually worse than 3 FB because of the additional cost with no additional value.
MilkmanAl wrote: That sheet is incredibly useful. Thank you! Any chance you can run the same numbers for Commanders and see what shakes out? Also, I think you've mistakenly used 4 hard points instead of the 3 Crisis suits have.
Thanks a lot, Commander will certainly come this evening or tomorrow.
Crisis can carry up to 3 Weapons + 1 Support system or 2 Weapons and 2 Support Systems.
Where did you read that?
because I would absolutely love that!
So far everyone else who read Crisis has agreed it's 3 total.
Altho there might be room for arguing that they can take 3&3.
Since the it's written 3 Weapon and/or Support systems.
Then again, it does say 'upto 3'... so not likely.
I've put together a Sheet that allows you to input :
* unit names, (as spelled in codex, replace dashes with spaces, all lower case),
* quantity of models in unit,
* Weapon name,
* Quantity of weapon,
* BS of guy holding the gun,
In the red and Orange blocks,
* ap and S of the guy shooting at your unit (for Effective wound calc)
*Toughness and Sv+ of the model you're shooting at
It gives you the total point value of your unit, Its effective wounds, its Wound output (firepower), its Cost per eff wound /firepower / combined, and a modifier to value firepower more (i like 4-6 here)
The sheet has a few tabs
Frontpage is where it does the things,
Backpage is where the info you put into frontpage gets math done to it
Unit calc is a copy of the calculator backpage uses to come up with its numbers. If you tamper with it, nothing will break regarding frontpage/backpage
The weapons and units tabs hold the stat-lines for weapons and units, and the names you need to type into frontpage to call those units
*you can add stat lines for other armys to calculate their data too.
Melee weapons is a bit unfinished. Use at your own risk, there are no melee weps in the "weapons tab" to use right now
I use it by plugging in 1 unit, recording its data, then plugging in another to see which i like more for the job at hand (anti-armour/ horde clearing etc..)
ps. the drone names are all named weird, a gun drone is "drone gun" a stealth drone is "drone stealth"
Please make any use of this sheet in any way you can and share it with anyone you think it will help. I ask only that you keep in mind the Greater Good when doing so.
After playing a few games with tau trying all different kinds of units in 8th my opinion is:
Gun drones are our new savior, 4 shots, hit on 4's with dc, can soak wounds and so cheap
Ive mixed marker drones with gun drones in squads and also 1 of each when you purchase for your suits, keep wounds allocated on gun drones and makes your opponent split fire
Minimum squads of fire warriors with a markerlight are great for filling the detachment and provide screening for commanders/assault
Commanders are our new spam unit, load up with 4x CIB to deepstrike or 4x Missile Pod to keep back and provide the twin link buff when needed
Crisis suits have never done that well for me in games, plasmas are cheap but never do well, hitting on 4's even with reroll 1's isnt great with no shots, thinking about trying 2x burst cannon and ats for volume, other weapons seem wasted when you can take another commander, 6 flamers could be a cheap unit to stop assaults/support fire with
Stormsurge ive tried in 1 game - did really well, lots of shots and combined with ats you really strip down units, missiles seem a bit underpowered if you roll poor but no wound roll needed
Broadsides are expensive when commanders can load up on missiles and be way cheaper, also dont like been static, may give them another try
Markerlights are always just go for the 1 on key units, the rest arnt needed uness you have seekers/destroyers. Really reliable on single shot sources where you dont waste all your shots. Move and shoot doesnt matter as you just take target locks, cover seems really pointless in 8th so far in my games and +1 to hit requires to much dedication
Ghostkeel i find ok, its quite tough, moves fast and my opponents never really shoot it as its -2. Stealth suits are similar but i find gun drones put out way more shots for cost.
Riptide i find really overcosted for its damage output, for 100pts more i can have stormsurge which just provides so much more firepower unlessi m using it incorrectly
Still want to try hammerheads with longstrike, vespids to replace the crisis suits and wait for the new forgeworld book to see if we get any goodies there. Ive gone on a bit but these are my findings so far. Way different to how tau play in 7th just got to adjust.
Wow, exceptionally useful spreadsheets, guys. Thanks! That's good confirmation of my early suspicions that spamming Commanders would be a points-efficient strategy and that fusions are a good option for our suits. Range is a bit of an issue as danger-close is not exactly somewhere you want a 150-pt melee invalid to be. I guess you need to make sure you clean house when you get in range!
alleus wrote: Not sure if this has been discussed, but I have a questions regarding special characters/Septs.
So I am starting a Farisight army, mostly because I love Farsight and all the fluff that goes along with him. Red is also a nice colour scheme, and suits are my jam.
However, I also really like Longstrike and his ruleset. Having him along another Hammerhead or two could be really powerful in the backline, taking care of vehicles.
This is where the problem comes in, using a Farsight list, with "Farsight" as the Sept (or would it be Vior'la..? Is Farsight Enclaves even a Sept?), could I even take Longstrike in the first place? And if I can, does he have to be T'au Sept, along with the Hammerheads he would support? The "Fire Caste Exemplar" rule says he only buffs nearby T'au Sept Hammerheads.
I think the Sept system is strange. I can understand Chaos legions and Space Marine Chapters, but do Tau Septs really differ that much in tactics and style of warfare? I know Farsight does his own thing with his enclaves, but are they technically a Sept?
I don't see anything that would forbid mixing different Sept keywords within a detachment - they all share the T'AU EMPIRE keyword, so they can be in the same detachment. Just be aware of what aura buffs affect what Sept: for example, as you noticed, Longstrike only affects T'AU SEPT, while Farsight only affects FARSIGHT ENCLAVES (which is a <SEPT> keyword, as far as I can tell, whether it's actually a Sept in the fluff sense or not). Also, yes, Longstrike does have to be from the T'au Sept - he always has the T'AU SEPT keyword, and no <SEPT> for you to fill in with a different one.
Fluffwise, no, the Septs aren't all that different in their modes of warfare, usually. The Farsight Enclaves aren't really a Sept in the same sense as Vior'la or some of the others, but for mechanical purposes they're essentially the same sort of subdivision of the faction. Also, the future T'au codex may introduce other mechanics that depend on the <SEPT> keyword.
I don't see anything that would forbid mixing different Sept keywords within a detachment - they all share the T'AU EMPIRE keyword, so they can be in the same detachment. Just be aware of what aura buffs affect what Sept: for example, as you noticed, Longstrike only affects T'AU SEPT, while Farsight only affects FARSIGHT ENCLAVES (which is a <SEPT> keyword, as far as I can tell, whether it's actually a Sept in the fluff sense or not). Also, yes, Longstrike does have to be from the T'au Sept - he always has the T'AU SEPT keyword, and no <SEPT> for you to fill in with a different one.
Fluffwise, no, the Septs aren't all that different in their modes of warfare, usually. The Farsight Enclaves aren't really a Sept in the same sense as Vior'la or some of the others, but for mechanical purposes they're essentially the same sort of subdivision of the faction. Also, the future T'au codex may introduce other mechanics that depend on the <SEPT> keyword.
I'm pretty sure that the initial rules for building a T'au Empire army is that you need to have the same Sept across the entire detachment. Like Chapter, Regiment, whatever do as well.
I don't see anything that would forbid mixing different Sept keywords within a detachment - they all share the T'AU EMPIRE keyword, so they can be in the same detachment. Just be aware of what aura buffs affect what Sept: for example, as you noticed, Longstrike only affects T'AU SEPT, while Farsight only affects FARSIGHT ENCLAVES (which is a <SEPT> keyword, as far as I can tell, whether it's actually a Sept in the fluff sense or not). Also, yes, Longstrike does have to be from the T'au Sept - he always has the T'AU SEPT keyword, and no <SEPT> for you to fill in with a different one.
Fluffwise, no, the Septs aren't all that different in their modes of warfare, usually. The Farsight Enclaves aren't really a Sept in the same sense as Vior'la or some of the others, but for mechanical purposes they're essentially the same sort of subdivision of the faction. Also, the future T'au codex may introduce other mechanics that depend on the <SEPT> keyword.
I'm pretty sure that the initial rules for building a T'au Empire army is that you need to have the same Sept across the entire detachment. Like Chapter, Regiment, whatever do as well.
You don't need the same Chapter, Regiment or whatever across your entire army. The only army this *might* be true for is Ynarri. No one else.
Drones and FB deployed in Devilfishes. When they get in range move out Drones and FB, Deepstrike the commander. Effectivly you habe 29 Drones with 6 Schots each on 9" or 4 at 18" + 4 BC's coming out at 190 Shots S5. With ML support to reroll 1s this would be pretty brutal and well worth the 500 points considdering the amount of bodies you would also get from this.
alleus wrote: Not sure if this has been discussed, but I have a questions regarding special characters/Septs.
So I am starting a Farisight army, mostly because I love Farsight and all the fluff that goes along with him. Red is also a nice colour scheme, and suits are my jam.
However, I also really like Longstrike and his ruleset. Having him along another Hammerhead or two could be really powerful in the backline, taking care of vehicles.
This is where the problem comes in, using a Farsight list, with "Farsight" as the Sept (or would it be Vior'la..? Is Farsight Enclaves even a Sept?), could I even take Longstrike in the first place? And if I can, does he have to be T'au Sept, along with the Hammerheads he would support? The "Fire Caste Exemplar" rule says he only buffs nearby T'au Sept Hammerheads.
I think the Sept system is strange. I can understand Chaos legions and Space Marine Chapters, but do Tau Septs really differ that much in tactics and style of warfare? I know Farsight does his own thing with his enclaves, but are they technically a Sept?
I don't see anything that would forbid mixing different Sept keywords within a detachment - they all share the T'AU EMPIRE keyword, so they can be in the same detachment. Just be aware of what aura buffs affect what Sept: for example, as you noticed, Longstrike only affects T'AU SEPT, while Farsight only affects FARSIGHT ENCLAVES (which is a <SEPT> keyword, as far as I can tell, whether it's actually a Sept in the fluff sense or not). Also, yes, Longstrike does have to be from the T'au Sept - he always has the T'AU SEPT keyword, and no <SEPT> for you to fill in with a different one.
Fluffwise, no, the Septs aren't all that different in their modes of warfare, usually. The Farsight Enclaves aren't really a Sept in the same sense as Vior'la or some of the others, but for mechanical purposes they're essentially the same sort of subdivision of the faction. Also, the future T'au codex may introduce other mechanics that depend on the <SEPT> keyword.
Right, this makes a lot of sense, thank you! I guess you could just take a patrol detachment with Longstrike and two Hammerheads as well, if you don't want them in the same detachment. As long as they all share the "T'au Empire" keyword, it should be fine.
Drones and FB deployed in Devilfishes. When they get in range move out Drones and FB, Deepstrike the commander. Effectivly you habe 29 Drones with 6 Schots each on 9" or 4 at 18" + 4 BC's coming out at 190 Shots S5. With ML support to reroll 1s this would be pretty brutal and well worth the 500 points considdering the amount of bodies you would also get from this.
It's actually a little better than this, since I didn't parse the Commanders BS2. Tho it's only 8 shots out of 190, so meh.
It's adding practically to the numbers, but the problem is that the Devilfishes are a huge drain in efficiency.
Am I reading and interpreting the rules correctly here?
If I'm using a Tidewall part (any which one really), I can't then use the Fireblades ability to add shots? According to the data sheets, they are transports, and the unit/characters in it are technically embarked.
In the transport rules it says: "Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked".
Isn't this a bit strange? I mean, they are on top of the ramparts, not really "embarked". Rules wise they are, but is this intended? Was this the only way to get the units "in" the platform?
I am asking this because I found a quite interesting way to field a Droneport; with a squad of Pathfinders and a Fireblade in it. The Fireblade controls 4 Marker Drones from the Droneport, making them BS2+. This is really enough to make it worthwhile, as the Pathfinders will use the Markerlights more often than not, however it would be nice to get the extra Pulse Carbine shots if the enemy gets close.
Vector Strike wrote: Auras don't work from inside to outside, but I think they work from outside to inside if the unit is inside an open-topped transport
Okay, but the Fireblade have to be inside the Droneport for the Drones to use his BS, so he needs to be in it as well.
Vector Strike wrote: Auras don't work from inside to outside, but I think they work from outside to inside if the unit is inside an open-topped transport
Okay, but the Fireblade have to be inside the Droneport for the Drones to use his BS, so he needs to be in it as well.
Yes, but them you won't have this aura working. He's so cheap, I wouldn't mind. I rather grab another fireblade to buff nearby folks and get BS2+ MLs from the first fireblade
Vector Strike wrote: Auras don't work from inside to outside, but I think they work from outside to inside if the unit is inside an open-topped transport
Okay, but the Fireblade have to be inside the Droneport for the Drones to use his BS, so he needs to be in it as well.
Yes, but them you won't have this aura working. He's so cheap, I wouldn't mind. I rather grab another fireblade to buff nearby folks and get BS2+ MLs from the first fireblade
Yeah, that works. I have two Fireblades on the way, but I wanted to try the Drone tactic someone in this thread wrote, with a Fireblade and a BUNCH of Gun Drones in two Devilfish transports, and a Commander with a Drone controller that deep strikes when the Devilfish unload all the Drones. Could be REALLY fun. Love Drones, so I need to try it
Drones and FB deployed in Devilfishes. When they get in range move out Drones and FB, Deepstrike the commander. Effectivly you habe 29 Drones with 6 Schots each on 9" or 4 at 18" + 4 BC's coming out at 190 Shots S5. With ML support to reroll 1s this would be pretty brutal and well worth the 500 points considdering the amount of bodies you would also get from this.
As I proved in my other post, there might also be an issue of overkill if you're using 2 Devilfish full of Drones
A Single Fish would be 111 points and carries 13 Drones = 104 || Total Package 215 Points
3BC/DC Commander is 76+30+5 = 111 points and another 16 for 2 Drones || 127 Points
Finally, Fireblade at 42 points
So 384 points.
15 Drones with 6 shots each (+4 from Devilfish BC) = 94 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 12.18 wounds
Commander with 12 shots = 12 * 35/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 2.59
12.18+2.59 = 14.77 wounds
384 / 14.77 = 25.99 points per MEQ wound
Devilfish with 14 Drones instead of Fireblade, 350 points
16 Drones with 4 shots each (+4 from Devilfish BC) = 68 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 8.81 wounds
Commander with 12 shots = 12 * 35/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 2.59
8.81+2.59 = 11.4 wounds
350 / 11.4 = 30.70 points per MEQ wound, Well at least that confirms that Fireblade is pulling his weight. Not to mention would be the source of the Markerlight that I have included in the math. This paragraph would need a different Markerlight source, thus hurting overall efficiency.
I'd guess maybe more options for command points use. I'm thinking they will avoid the whole sweeping special rules this edition and just make things like chapter tactics a way to use command points as strategims.
I doubt there will be but ilive the idea. Some examples iwould consider are. ..
Mu'gulath bay: infantry get a 3+ fnp against exploding vehicles they are embarked in.
D'yanol: infantry shas'ui May choose not to shoot this turn, this unit gains +1 to invulnerable saves from guardian drones until the start of its next movement phase.
Vior'la: infantry shas'ui May choose not to shoot this turn, this unit gains +1AP until the end of this phase.
Tau'n: infantry shas'ui May choose not to shoot this turn, this unit gains +1 to hit vs vehicles until the end of this phase.
Bork'an: infantry shas'ui may take a mv52 shield drone.
Dal'yth: infantry units for the greater good triggers on 5 or 6.
Fal'Shia: infantry shas'ui can take a mv8 missile drone.
Its probably worth getting the DS8 with a 
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