I know a lot of people feel let down that the next codex to release is not a xenos race - how would you feel if Battle Sisters were to follow after Thousand Sons? Who really knows? I am excited about the Custodes codex but know that a lot of players want to see new xenos codices.
Primark G wrote: I know a lot of people feel let down that the next codex to release is not a xenos race - how would you feel if Battle Sisters were to follow after Thousand Sons? Who really knows? I am excited about the Custodes codex but know that a lot of players want to see new xenos codices.
It would have certainly been the worst way to release that type of a codex. Imagine if they had done so even just a few months ago, it would've been a much better opportunity to release something like that.
Am I the only one that think sisters are mildy interesting but thats as far as it goes?
Like ever.
I feel the same, but I can also understand how people are passionate about miniatures they've collected & painted over the years. I am very passionate about my Grey Knights, and most people consider them to be a subfaction not deserving of being a standalone army (and, the rules support this statement anyway). It does seem like Sisters get way more attention than they deserve, but that's also the opinion of someone who isn't really into them in the first place.
All that said, it's pretty much indisputable that Necrons are in the worst shape of anyone in 40k 8th edition right now, and as someone who doesn't play Necrons, nor Sisters, maybe i'm a bit more objective in my analysis that Necrons have more need than Sisters.
It certainly wouldn't be unsurprising, all they've released since 8th dropped is just more power armor armies.
That being said, I think space puppies is far more likely, what with 1k sons coming out and all.
Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if a leman russ model came out too.
But I frankly don't think sisters are coming out anytime soon, possibly ever. I've heard so many 'rumors' over the years I just don't think it's likely, especially not while they have so much work to do with xenos.
I feel the same, but I can also understand how people are passionate about miniatures they've collected & painted over the years. I am very passionate about my Grey Knights, and most people consider them to be a subfaction not deserving of being a standalone army (and, the rules support this statement anyway). It does seem like Sisters get way more attention than they deserve, but that's also the opinion of someone who isn't really into them in the first place.
Seems less than ideal, coming on the back of daemons (which has new models) and custodes (which is basically an entirely new army), this would make it a virtual certainty to be a codex without new units or models. Given SoB current state, this would be received about as well as the admech codex was.
A late spring or summer release might be more likely and gives a better chance of having actual models.
You're drawing up a false equivalence here, between an entirely new faction that existed in nothing more than passing mention previously (there are Custodes. They have banana hats and spearguns. They guard the palace) and which share extremely significant design overlap with existing "marines but marinier" factions, and Sisters of Battle, which would be one of the most highly asked-for model line reboots by veterans of the hobby ever.
In order of which factions actually need a codex update to be playable, you've got Tau and Necrons about tied (necrons a bit behind tau because tau at least have a Flyrant in their index) and then Dark Eldar functioning a bit better than those two. Which is good, because the rumored release schedule has those three as the next three books.
I know that GW has never been about that whole "don't oversaturate your core customer base with minor variations on the most popular themes" business practice, but if you can't see the difference between a ministorum reboot and a faction that is basically Grey Knights - psychic powers + a couple unique weapons...I dunno what to say.
Am I the only one that think sisters are mildy interesting but thats as far as it goes?
Like ever.
I feel the same, but I can also understand how people are passionate about miniatures they've collected & painted over the years. I am very passionate about my Grey Knights, and most people consider them to be a subfaction not deserving of being a standalone army (and, the rules support this statement anyway). It does seem like Sisters get way more attention than they deserve, but that's also the opinion of someone who isn't really into them in the first place.
All that said, it's pretty much indisputable that Necrons are in the worst shape of anyone in 40k 8th edition right now, and as someone who doesn't play Necrons, nor Sisters, maybe i'm a bit more objective in my analysis that Necrons have more need than Sisters.
Rules, YES; Models NO. And SoB get as much attention as they do from the community because of how little they get from GW. If we had a full line of plastics and a codex we'd fall into the background din of 'marine whiners' alongside thousand sons/blood angels/dark angels/space wolves/heretic astartes players.
Primark G wrote: I know a lot of people feel let down that the next codex to release is not a xenos race - how would you feel if Battle Sisters were to follow after Thousand Sons? Who really knows? I am excited about the Custodes codex but know that a lot of players want to see new xenos codices.
It depends. If its comes with plastic SoB? I'l llove it. If it is just a Codex without anything more besides Celestine sold separately? A little dissapointed, because some Xenos like Ork or Necron should come first, to add some more variety to the lists and meta. A good ork or Necron codex will shake the meta much more than a good SoB codex just based in number of armies out there.
And rule wise SoB are literally in the same spot compared with Marines than Custodes but the opposite. Sisters can be described as Marines -1S and -1T. Custodes are marines with +1S and +1T. (Of course Sisters have much more nuance to their gameplay, with acts of faith, Ministorum units, etc... Just like Custodes will have with their own codex)
I'm honestly going to be fairly annoyed if the next codex is anything but a xenos faction, I don't even care if it's an army I don't play. There are 7 imperium codexes out or announce, 4 chaos codexes out or announced, and 2 Xenos codexes out or announced.
Marmatag wrote: I don't think sisters of battle deserve their own codex. They overlap so heavily with Ministorum.
I can think of no army in any game that deserves their own codex more than sisters. Twice they have had to deal with a bs fold out from a white dwarf.
They had a codex in 2nd ed in 1997, waited 5 years and then got rolled up in into witch hunters under inquisition in 2004 for 3rd. Noting in 4th, got a handful of pages and had them called a dex in 2011 in a white dwarf. Got a codex that just reprinted the gak they already had in 2013, and then the index lists.
They absolutely deserve a codex, and a dense plastic sprue for their base infantry
A solid Sisters of Battle codex with new models? Thats literally the only thing that will bring me back to playing 40k, and the only release i'll care about.
Chalk me up as someone who would be interested in a Sisters of Battle army if it got updated and had a lot of new toys to bring the army into line with everyone else at last. However, I do think it will end up being Codex: Adeptus Ministorum rather than SoB.
Personally I don't care what order GW release the codex books in just so long as they all get done. GW have said that they want to bring the focus back onto the Chaos vs Imperium narrative so I can fully understand the love they seem to be throwing out for both of those armies. Peeps ned to be patient. You will get your own xenos codex books soon enough.
As has been stated by others, Index sisters actually hold their own pretty good, so I'm less interested in a new codex release on its own, and would much rather see it accompanied by a plastic model release.
I'd be ecstatic if Sisters were given a proper treatment. That would be multiple kits with an included flyer because with the Ministorum models they are a complete army. They vastly outnumber all the marines out there due to their deployment. Realistically given their mandate there should be a squad of two on every planet with more than a token Ministorum presence.
Bluepuffoflogic wrote: I'm honestly going to be fairly annoyed if the next codex is anything but a xenos faction, I don't even care if it's an army I don't play. There are 7 imperium codexes out or announce, 4 chaos codexes out or announced, and 2 Xenos codexes out or announced.
Let's try a little balance.
This. It should be Necrons by all rights given the difficulty they've been having competitively.
New models for xenos armies would he nice too. Y know, just to break the mould.
As many said. They would likely fly out the shelves and be unavailable online for weeks of they where to to be released with a new codex and plastic tanks.
If true.. They would be shipping sisters out the thousand from Nottingham.
Why does everyone think plastic sisters would sell so much? They weren't popular back in the day, that's why they haven't been invested in with models. I get the distinct feeling 90% of people going on and on about their release wouldn't buy them.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Why does everyone think plastic sisters would sell so much? They weren't popular back in the day, that's why they haven't been invested in with models. I get the distinct feeling 90% of people going on and on about their release wouldn't buy them.
Because it's been built up into this weird holy grail type situation. Honestly idk how much they'd sell. I'd be tempted to get them, but it really depends on finances and what else came out recently.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Why does everyone think plastic sisters would sell so much? They weren't popular back in the day, that's why they haven't been invested in with models. I get the distinct feeling 90% of people going on and on about their release wouldn't buy them.
People would buy them because "back in the day" the player numbers weren't this high. The player base has exploded out since then. People STILL buy the metal models just to play the army. They even caused the new sisters canonness to sell out online for multiple weeks. Clearly there is more than enough there to sell, GW is just too stupid to see it.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Why does everyone think plastic sisters would sell so much? They weren't popular back in the day, that's why they haven't been invested in with models. I get the distinct feeling 90% of people going on and on about their release wouldn't buy them.
People would buy them because "back in the day" the player numbers weren't this high. The player base has exploded out since then. People STILL buy the metal models just to play the army. They even caused the new sisters canonness to sell out online for multiple weeks. Clearly there is more than enough there to sell, GW is just too stupid to see it.
If the player base is 900% larger now...you could expect demand for each type of modle to go up evenly - so they'd make more selling another kind of model that isn't sisters. Sisters of battle is probably the army with the least actual interest for obvious reasons. The 20 or so people on dakka that never shut up about sisters are likely the only ones that want to play the dang army.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Why does everyone think plastic sisters would sell so much? They weren't popular back in the day, that's why they haven't been invested in with models. I get the distinct feeling 90% of people going on and on about their release wouldn't buy them.
People would buy them because "back in the day" the player numbers weren't this high. The player base has exploded out since then. People STILL buy the metal models just to play the army. They even caused the new sisters canonness to sell out online for multiple weeks. Clearly there is more than enough there to sell, GW is just too stupid to see it.
If the player base is 900% larger now...you could expect demand for each type of modle to go up evenly - so they'd make more selling another kind of model that isn't sisters. Sisters of battle is probably the army with the least actual interest for obvious reasons. The 20 or so people on dakka that never shut up about sisters are likely the only ones that want to play the dang army.
Yeah. Just like Custodes.
And I don't understand the reasoning that people follows. "A new kit should appeal to EVERYBODY to be economically viable": Do you know what is a "target"? Sisters of Battle by their own nature are very distinct.That means that they will be attractive to a group of customers that maybe don't buy other factions because they don't like them, just like they did with "Tau" and the asian-anime-scifi aesthetic.
Its a way to open your range of potential customers. Not everything you do should appeal to everybody. Just like at Kharadron Overlords from AoS. Is not about making "generic" factions that everyone kinda of likes. Is about making factions with strong themes that a group of people LOVES, even if that means others people HATE it.
I don't even play Sisters but I'd be all over an update to their range with plastic kits and a plastic spin on the current Exorcist design (as opposed to something like the really bland FW version).
As an ex-Catholic something tickles me about the nuns with guns and their organ-tank. The only things keeping me away right now are the obscene prices and a reluctance to work with all that pewter.
Sisters wear power armor with a 3+ save, they use bolt guns etc. How are they somehow "not marines" but Custodes are, despite having a universal 2+ armor save, an d sure they use bolt guns but they are very differant from marine bolters. TBH Custodes at their CORE have more differance from marines then SOBs do.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Why does everyone think plastic sisters would sell so much? They weren't popular back in the day, that's why they haven't been invested in with models. I get the distinct feeling 90% of people going on and on about their release wouldn't buy them.
People would buy them because "back in the day" the player numbers weren't this high. The player base has exploded out since then. People STILL buy the metal models just to play the army. They even caused the new sisters canonness to sell out online for multiple weeks. Clearly there is more than enough there to sell, GW is just too stupid to see it.
If the player base is 900% larger now...you could expect demand for each type of modle to go up evenly - so they'd make more selling another kind of model that isn't sisters. Sisters of battle is probably the army with the least actual interest for obvious reasons. The 20 or so people on dakka that never shut up about sisters are likely the only ones that want to play the dang army.
Yeah. Just like Custodes.
And I don't understand the reasoning that people follows. "A new kit should appeal to EVERYBODY to be economically viable": Do you know what is a "target"? Sisters of Battle by their own nature are very distinct.That means that they will be attractive to a group of customers that maybe don't buy other factions because they don't like them, just like they did with "Tau" and the asian-anime-scifi aesthetic.
Its a way to open your range of potential customers. Not everything you do should appeal to everybody. Just like at Kharadron Overlords from AoS. Is not about making "generic" factions that everyone kinda of likes. Is about making factions with strong themes that a group of people LOVES, even if that means others people HATE it.
The point is sisters have such a small target market that they aren't viable. Yea, the 20 people in here always bringing up sisters would love them, but they don't have much appeal and they cross over too much with other imperial armies.
The argument for sisters in plastic is dependent on whether the demographic of the market had changed and I'm not too sure it has.
BrianDavion wrote: Sisters wear power armor with a 3+ save, they use bolt guns etc. How are they somehow "not marines" but Custodes are, despite having a universal 2+ armor save, an d sure they use bolt guns but they are very differant from marine bolters. TBH Custodes at their CORE have more differance from marines then SOBs do.
Thematically Sisters are more different as they are normal humans (and women!) while both Custodes and Marines are augmented superhuman giants. I think that matters more than the rules.
The point is sisters have such a small target market that they aren't viable. Yea, the 20 people in here always bringing up sisters would love them, but they don't have much appeal and they cross over too much with other imperial armies.
The argument for sisters in plastic is dependent on whether the demographic of the market had changed and I'm not too sure it has.
They don't need to be Marine levels popular to be profitable, they only need to be Genestealer Cults level popular (or AoS Fyreslayer level popular!)
An Actual Englishman wrote: Why does everyone think plastic sisters would sell so much? They weren't popular back in the day, that's why they haven't been invested in with models. I get the distinct feeling 90% of people going on and on about their release wouldn't buy them.
People would buy them because "back in the day" the player numbers weren't this high. The player base has exploded out since then. People STILL buy the metal models just to play the army. They even caused the new sisters canonness to sell out online for multiple weeks. Clearly there is more than enough there to sell, GW is just too stupid to see it.
If the player base is 900% larger now...you could expect demand for each type of modle to go up evenly - so they'd make more selling another kind of model that isn't sisters. Sisters of battle is probably the army with the least actual interest for obvious reasons. The 20 or so people on dakka that never shut up about sisters are likely the only ones that want to play the dang army.
Yeah. Just like Custodes.
And I don't understand the reasoning that people follows. "A new kit should appeal to EVERYBODY to be economically viable": Do you know what is a "target"? Sisters of Battle by their own nature are very distinct.That means that they will be attractive to a group of customers that maybe don't buy other factions because they don't like them, just like they did with "Tau" and the asian-anime-scifi aesthetic.
Its a way to open your range of potential customers. Not everything you do should appeal to everybody. Just like at Kharadron Overlords from AoS. Is not about making "generic" factions that everyone kinda of likes. Is about making factions with strong themes that a group of people LOVES, even if that means others people HATE it.
Man. I remember all those 'We want custodes!' 'Custodes in Plastic!' 'Custodes Tactica thread' 'New Custodes' rumors threads we've had these last ten years...
An Actual Englishman wrote: Why does everyone think plastic sisters would sell so much? They weren't popular back in the day, that's why they haven't been invested in with models. I get the distinct feeling 90% of people going on and on about their release wouldn't buy them.
People would buy them because "back in the day" the player numbers weren't this high. The player base has exploded out since then. People STILL buy the metal models just to play the army. They even caused the new sisters canonness to sell out online for multiple weeks. Clearly there is more than enough there to sell, GW is just too stupid to see it.
If the player base is 900% larger now...you could expect demand for each type of modle to go up evenly - so they'd make more selling another kind of model that isn't sisters. Sisters of battle is probably the army with the least actual interest for obvious reasons. The 20 or so people on dakka that never shut up about sisters are likely the only ones that want to play the dang army.
Yeah. Just like Custodes.
And I don't understand the reasoning that people follows. "A new kit should appeal to EVERYBODY to be economically viable": Do you know what is a "target"? Sisters of Battle by their own nature are very distinct.That means that they will be attractive to a group of customers that maybe don't buy other factions because they don't like them, just like they did with "Tau" and the asian-anime-scifi aesthetic.
Its a way to open your range of potential customers. Not everything you do should appeal to everybody. Just like at Kharadron Overlords from AoS. Is not about making "generic" factions that everyone kinda of likes. Is about making factions with strong themes that a group of people LOVES, even if that means others people HATE it.
Man. I remember all those 'We want custodes!' 'Custodes in Plastic!' 'Custodes Tactica thread' 'New Custodes' rumors threads we've had these last ten years...
Just like sisters.
Nah man. "An English Gentelman" knows all the data so he can categorically assert than SoB have such a small target market that they aren't viable. We all know Genestealer Cultists, Adeptus Mechanicus and Harlequines have always been much more popular armies.
The point is sisters have such a small target market that they aren't viable. Yea, the 20 people in here always bringing up sisters would love them, but they don't have much appeal and they cross over too much with other imperial armies.
The argument for sisters in plastic is dependent on whether the demographic of the market had changed and I'm not too sure it has.
They don't need to be Marine levels popular to be profitable, they only need to be Genestealer Cults level popular (or AoS Fyreslayer level popular!)
Is funny you said that because Fyreslayers have jumped from being the probably least collected AoS army to one of the most popular ones, specially in tournaments. Who would have guessed than a very nice SC! that actually reduces the cost of a big kit by 20€ and OP competitive rules would do that?!
They don't need to be Marine levels popular to be profitable, they only need to be Genestealer Cults level popular (or AoS Fyreslayer level popular!)
To recast an entire range is another thing entirely to releasing a small faction or a faction that borrows a ton of units from other ranges.
I think sisters have the double problem of "visually distinct and unique" with "not a massive market".
GSC are actually a very, very clever release by GW because it is a cross imperium xenos faction. Not too different for the imperials, not too normal for the xenos. It's appeal should be fairly widespread but I don't think it did amazingly.
I might be wrong but I just hope the noise around sisters is relative to spend.
Nah man. "An English Gentelman" knows all the data so he can categorically assert than SoB have such a small target market that they aren't viable. We all know Genestealer Cultists, Adeptus Mechanicus and Harlequines have always been much more popular armies.
You don't have to have "all the data" to make general statements and I haven't "categorically asserted" anything. It's just if you have a few brain cells and have been in the hobby for a little while, plus you use something called common sense you might realise that GW is a business and reacts as a business would to sales. If Sister's sold (like ahem, Space Marines) they would be invested in. Crazy right? Now take your back handed insults elsewhere.
I'm not insulting anyone, but I'll admit I have been very condescending, I apologize for that.
But is just disigenuos to say that, if something don't sells like Space Marines, GW don't invest on it. It doesn't invest as much, of course. But it is obvious that they don't invest JUST in space marines.
Where was the "excitement" and "player interest" for Kharadron Overlords before they where released? Or for Sylvaneth? Could you say with a straight face that more people wanted Custodes and Genestealer Cults than Sisters of Battle?
The reality is: If a new release has cool models and good rules, it will sell (And they are affordable: For reference look at GSC or the difference between Fyreslayers pre and post Start Collecting!). End of the question. It doesn't need any kind of previous build-up. The fact that Sisters of Silence have one, compared with Kharadron Overlords, is just a plus.
The point is sisters have such a small target market that they aren't viable. Yea, the 20 people in here always bringing up sisters would love them, but they don't have much appeal and they cross over too much with other imperial armies.
The argument for sisters in plastic is dependent on whether the demographic of the market had changed and I'm not too sure it has.
I am one who would jump at a Sisters army if it were given a proper plastic release. I just don't want to buy an all-metal army that cost the same as about 2-3 other armies combined and is only available through Direct Order. What is your argument that this is such a small target market compared to the other new factions released in the past 2 years?
I would claim you are wrong about the appeal. As the only mostly all-women army in the game they would actually provide a unique appeal no other 40k army can provide. Also, cross over with other imperial armies doesn't seem to be an issue for GW who tends to make a lot of power armor already.
The demography has changed and is always evolving. Expecting the same British boys to be playing this game eternally without any change kinda ignores the overall changes in the gaming industry at large(both table and video). Hell, GW making more female miniatures means that they are detecting a certain change in the demography.
I don't think only Space Marines should be released but I also think there is a big cross over with Sisters and Marines. I'm simply stating that the market for Sisters MIGHT be smaller than for any other faction despite all the noise around it.
If you ask an average dude what looks coolest out of - Alien Menace, Heroic Super Human, Rambo/Arnie wannabes and Nuns with Guns who you think is gonna come in last?
To be honest, I think the reason they were so unpopular around here was the whole hyper religious thing. I feel like their schtick is their biggest weakness, they are representative of exactly what the Emperor wanted to stamp out and people are becoming less religious generally IRL too.
Something that I THINK WOULD FLY OFF THE SHELVES would be a Sisters vs Corrupted Sisters starter set. The corrupted Sisters would link to a Slaanesh release at some point and would likely be allied to them. That would give them a) a mortal enemy and b) a little more depth as a faction.
If you ask an average dude what looks coolest out of - Alien Menace, Heroic Super Human, Rambo/Arnie wannabes and Nuns with Guns who you think is gonna come in last?
Obviously Rambo/Arnie wannabes. Have you seen Catachan models?
To be honest, I think the reason they were so unpopular around here was the whole hyper religious thing. I feel like their schtick is their biggest weakness, they are representative of exactly what the Emperor wanted to stamp out and people are becoming less religious generally IRL too.
That's crazy talk. People don't need to be brainwashed psychotic murderers to like the Marines nor do they need to be religious to like the Sisters.
Something that I THINK WOULD FLY OFF THE SHELVES would be a Sisters vs Corrupted Sisters starter set. The corrupted Sisters would link to a Slaanesh release at some point and would likely be allied to them. That would give them a) a mortal enemy and b) a little more depth as a faction.
No. Slaaneshi sisters is one thing that should absolutely never happen. That you even suggest it proves that you have irredeemably terrible taste and no one should ever listen you, probably about anything.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I don't think only Space Marines should be released but I also think there is a big cross over with Sisters and Marines. I'm simply stating that the market for Sisters MIGHT be smaller than for any other faction despite all the noise around it.
If you ask an average dude what looks coolest out of - Alien Menace, Heroic Super Human, Rambo/Arnie wannabes and Nuns with Guns who you think is gonna come in last?
To be honest, I think the reason they were so unpopular around here was the whole hyper religious thing. I feel like their schtick is their biggest weakness, they are representative of exactly what the Emperor wanted to stamp out and people are becoming less religious generally IRL too.
Something that I THINK WOULD FLY OFF THE SHELVES would be a Sisters vs Corrupted Sisters starter set. The corrupted Sisters would link to a Slaanesh release at some point and would likely be allied to them. That would give them a) a mortal enemy and b) a little more depth as a faction.
I would absolutely detest that. Khornate would be fine. I hate the fact that every goddamn time I see/hear about fallen sisters, it's related to Slaneesh.
Anyway, a f vs. f box is also not what is needed, ever. Sisters vs. Tyranids would be ideal from one perspective, Sisters vs. Renegade Guard would be best from another.
Crimson wrote: Obviously Rambo/Arnie wannabes. Have you seen Catachan models?
Agreed.
That's crazy talk. People don't need to be brainwashed psychotic murderers to like the Marines nor do they need to be religious to like the Sisters.
I didn't say you needed to be, I said that there is a negative perception of religious fervour these days and for whatever reason (that is way, waaaay outside the scope of this thread) it's more acceptable for the "baddies" to be religious nutjobs than the "goodies".
No. Slaaneshi sisters is one thing that should absolutely never happen. That you even suggest it proves that you have irredeemably terrible taste and no one should ever listen you, probably about anything.
Let me ask all ya'll Sisters guys a question then; would you take plastic Sisters if they also released plastic Slaaneshi/Chaos Corrupted Sisters? To me it totally should happen, I mean if Astartes can fall and man can fall, why can't women? Gender equality and all that. The only problem with it is that it likely wouldn't be PG13 soooooooo doubtful is an understatement.
Crimson wrote: Obviously Rambo/Arnie wannabes. Have you seen Catachan models?
Agreed.
That's crazy talk. People don't need to be brainwashed psychotic murderers to like the Marines nor do they need to be religious to like the Sisters.
I didn't say you needed to be, I said that there is a negative perception of religious fervour these days and for whatever reason (that is way, waaaay outside the scope of this thread) it's more acceptable for the "baddies" to be religious nutjobs than the "goodies".
No. Slaaneshi sisters is one thing that should absolutely never happen. That you even suggest it proves that you have irredeemably terrible taste and no one should ever listen you, probably about anything.
Let me ask all ya'll Sisters guys a question then; would you take plastic Sisters if they also released plastic Slaaneshi/Chaos Corrupted Sisters? To me it totally should happen, I mean if Astartes can fall and man can fall, why can't women? Gender equality and all that. The only problem with it is that it likely wouldn't be PG13 soooooooo doubtful is an understatement.
Not with Slaneeshi ones. I would need to find someone to castrate.
As I said, Khornate Sisters would be something I could accept. I think it's very important that "fallen" female warriors not be exclusively devoted to the god of sex and drugs.
Slaneeshi Sisters would not be encouraging equality, it would be the absolute worst thing you could do from that perspective.
To be honest, I think the reason they were so unpopular around here was the whole hyper religious thing. I feel like their schtick is their biggest weakness, they are representative of exactly what the Emperor wanted to stamp out and people are becoming less religious generally IRL too.
.
I disagree, the religious aspect of the sisters isn't something that appeals to the deeply religious (in fact they proably find it insulting) the religious aspect honestly is more something that appeals to those who can understand the over the top religious aspect of 40k is supposed to be well.. kind of a joke. it's BASICLY parody.
Why wouldn't they be associated with all the gods like, yknow, everyone else to fall? That is equality; men, women and posthumans all falling the same. People think Slaanesh first because Slaanesh is the only chaos God that has clearly female servants. There's already a visual distinction there and he/she is also the only god who's line hasn't been updated. I would also add that Slaanesh is the god of pleasure, not just sexual pleasure. It's not a stretch to imagine an insanely religious nun being tempted to greater acts of violence through "the voice of her Lord" guiding her and rewarding her with the pleasure of affirmation.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I don't think only Space Marines should be released but I also think there is a big cross over with Sisters and Marines. I'm simply stating that the market for Sisters MIGHT be smaller than for any other faction despite all the noise around it.
If you ask an average dude what looks coolest out of - Alien Menace, Heroic Super Human, Rambo/Arnie wannabes and Nuns with Guns who you think is gonna come in last?
To be honest, I think the reason they were so unpopular around here was the whole hyper religious thing. I feel like their schtick is their biggest weakness, they are representative of exactly what the Emperor wanted to stamp out and people are becoming less religious generally IRL too.
Something that I THINK WOULD FLY OFF THE SHELVES would be a Sisters vs Corrupted Sisters starter set. The corrupted Sisters would link to a Slaanesh release at some point and would likely be allied to them. That would give them a) a mortal enemy and b) a little more depth as a faction.
I would absolutely detest that. Khornate would be fine. I hate the fact that every goddamn time I see/hear about fallen sisters, it's related to Slaneesh.
Anyway, a f vs. f box is also not what is needed, ever. Sisters vs. Tyranids would be ideal from one perspective, Sisters vs. Renegade Guard would be best from another.
To be honest theres only one "fallen sister", and its slaanesh, yeah.
But is not like Khornate is better, you know, the "red rage" jokes and all of that
To be honest, I think the reason they were so unpopular around here was the whole hyper religious thing. I feel like their schtick is their biggest weakness, they are representative of exactly what the Emperor wanted to stamp out and people are becoming less religious generally IRL too.
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I disagree, the religious aspect of the sisters isn't something that appeals to the deeply religious (in fact they proably find it insulting) the religious aspect honestly is more something that appeals to those who can understand the over the top religious aspect of 40k is supposed to be well.. kind of a joke. it's BASICLY parody.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I don't think only Space Marines should be released but I also think there is a big cross over with Sisters and Marines. I'm simply stating that the market for Sisters MIGHT be smaller than for any other faction despite all the noise around it.
If you ask an average dude what looks coolest out of - Alien Menace, Heroic Super Human, Rambo/Arnie wannabes and Nuns with Guns who you think is gonna come in last?
To be honest, I think the reason they were so unpopular around here was the whole hyper religious thing. I feel like their schtick is their biggest weakness, they are representative of exactly what the Emperor wanted to stamp out and people are becoming less religious generally IRL too.
Something that I THINK WOULD FLY OFF THE SHELVES would be a Sisters vs Corrupted Sisters starter set. The corrupted Sisters would link to a Slaanesh release at some point and would likely be allied to them. That would give them a) a mortal enemy and b) a little more depth as a faction.
I would absolutely detest that. Khornate would be fine. I hate the fact that every goddamn time I see/hear about fallen sisters, it's related to Slaneesh.
Anyway, a f vs. f box is also not what is needed, ever. Sisters vs. Tyranids would be ideal from one perspective, Sisters vs. Renegade Guard would be best from another.
To be honest theres only one "fallen sister", and its slaanesh, yeah.
But is not like Khornate is better, you know, the "red rage" jokes and all of that
Slaneeshi Sisters perpetuates the message that the status quo is entirely tolerable. It's not. Khornate Sisters carry the opposite message, even if they have barbarian loincloths and chainmail bikinis.
Satire tends to go over the head of a 13 year old hobbyist though, hence their lack of popularity. When the person is old enough to "get it" he's committed to another few armies already.
I'm sure their lack of popularty has to do with [Insert here reason] and not with the fact that they are a 20 year old range of full metal and very expensive miniatures that can be only bought by direct-order to GW website.
And the "Sisters weren't popular back in the day" isn't a real reason for their actual situation. You know what wasn't popular? Dark Eldars. Do you know what was, at the time, as popular as space marines and Imperial Guard? Squats.
For me the only reason they been abandoned all this time? Nobody in the GW studio is really a fan of them, and they can't come up with something that they think is "good enough". That, and Kirby management.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Slaneeshi Sisters perpetuates the message that the status quo is entirely tolerable. It's not. Khornate Sisters carry the opposite message, even if they have barbarian loincloths and chainmail bikinis.
Slightly confused, status quo as in the line being ignored, or status quo like focusing on slaanesh sisters, or status quo like sisters of battle being weirdly sexualized what with the gimp chainsaw nuns?
Tbh, I'd kinda prefer they just let sisters not have a chaos counterpart, play up the incorruptible bit. Sure it's generic, but there are extremely good reasons to not encourage certain portions of the community. I really don't want to see what sort of conversions someone will bring to the table for sisters of nurgle.
I disagree, the religious aspect of the sisters isn't something that appeals to the deeply religious (in fact they proably find it insulting) the religious aspect honestly is more something that appeals to those who can understand the over the top religious aspect of 40k is supposed to be well.. kind of a joke. it's BASICLY parody.
Yep, exactly.
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An Actual Englishman wrote: Satire tends to go over the head of a 13 year old hobbyist though, hence their lack of popularity. When the person is old enough to "get it" he's committed to another few armies already.
When person is old enough to 'get it', they also might have a salary to insta buy a full Sisters army.
And generally designing things so that they appeal to 13-year-olds is a terrible idea. 13-year-olds usually have terrible taste regarding everything.
Tokhuah wrote: Instead of Sisters I think there should be Necron fembots with big metal cone boobs... with banana hats.
Seriously, are SoB mechanically very different from all other SMs?
Yes very much so. They are cheaper and die so much faster than marines due to that 3 Toughness. Their major mechanic of Faith has never behaved like Chapter Tactics given the fact its something we have to roll to pull off and not just get automatically. We do not have psykers and never have. I'm not counting Inquisitors as they are not members of the Sororitas or the Church once they join the Inquisition.
That was just a dagger in the heart to us old Squat players. They released a Squat range that wasn't for 40k. Grombrindal's wearing fu*kin exo armour for crying out loud.
I would stop buying new Salamander stuff and spend waaaaay too much Money on new Squats or plastic Sisters.
I will agree that they do need to update (New models/codex) Dark Eldar, Orks, Necrons, and T'au (not that I care about fish people) before more human (post or not) armies.
Plastic sisters would sell like crazy, almost every 40k fan I've spoken to IRL would love to see them, and many of them would buy an army in a heartbeat. It would also bring GW a lot of goodwill, the lack of plastic sisters is a meme that's not doing GW any good by this point.
The reasons so few people play Sisters are the current sculpts, the metal models, the price, the lack of updates and maybe the webstore exclusivity. The concept and visual style are both widely appealing.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Why does everyone think plastic sisters would sell so much? They weren't popular back in the day, that's why they haven't been invested in with models. I get the distinct feeling 90% of people going on and on about their release wouldn't buy them.
People would buy them because "back in the day" the player numbers weren't this high. The player base has exploded out since then. People STILL buy the metal models just to play the army. They even caused the new sisters canonness to sell out online for multiple weeks. Clearly there is more than enough there to sell, GW is just too stupid to see it.
If the player base is 900% larger now...you could expect demand for each type of modle to go up evenly - so they'd make more selling another kind of model that isn't sisters. Sisters of battle is probably the army with the least actual interest for obvious reasons. The 20 or so people on dakka that never shut up about sisters are likely the only ones that want to play the dang army.
Yeah. Just like Custodes.
And I don't understand the reasoning that people follows. "A new kit should appeal to EVERYBODY to be economically viable": Do you know what is a "target"? Sisters of Battle by their own nature are very distinct.That means that they will be attractive to a group of customers that maybe don't buy other factions because they don't like them, just like they did with "Tau" and the asian-anime-scifi aesthetic.
Its a way to open your range of potential customers. Not everything you do should appeal to everybody. Just like at Kharadron Overlords from AoS. Is not about making "generic" factions that everyone kinda of likes. Is about making factions with strong themes that a group of people LOVES, even if that means others people HATE it.
The point is sisters have such a small target market that they aren't viable. Yea, the 20 people in here always bringing up sisters would love them, but they don't have much appeal and they cross over too much with other imperial armies.
The argument for sisters in plastic is dependent on whether the demographic of the market had changed and I'm not too sure it has.
Yunno what other army clearly doesn't have any crossover with other army, and a small enough target market that they're probably not viable? Orkz. Why do you think they haven't seen but 1-2 kits or a halfway decent codex since 5th? It's a non-eldar xenos army so it doesn't crossover with anything, and yeah the 20 people who really really love orkz have HUGE armies, but they're not going to be buying anything anymore.
And yeah, Orkz have some mass appeal, the whole faction is a glorified fart joke, but I don't know how many 12 year olds can really afford a horde army at GW prices.
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Tokhuah wrote: Instead of Sisters I think there should be Necron fembots with big metal cone boobs... with banana hats.
Seriously, are SoB mechanically very different from all other SMs?
SoB actually play closer to Ynnari than Space marines.
I would prefer a sisters release to be after some xenos as im sick of all the imperial updates.
A plastic sisters release with plastic model prices would be oh so very welcome. Current prices are so beyond stupid its not funny and the only reason im not adding more girls.
Gotta say, i hate the idea of corrupted sisters with a passion that burns with the fire of a thousand suns.
Its one of their sticks. Thatd be like having corrupted grey knights.
Sisters being released opposite Word Bearers, now thats a matchup that makes sense to me and id love to see.
A little late, but keep Sisters as far away from Slaanesh as possible. I would prefer SOB get squatted to that horrible idea. Sisters might be slightly similar to marines, but just look at how many different marines there are out there already. You can't honestly use that as an excuse not to release another 3+ save faction.
Overall SOB sit in a much different place from generic marines or the Xeno races themselves. There's also no reason that GW couldn't give them MORE rules to compliment a blend of SOB and IG. Celestine already benefits Guard more than Sisters, why not?
I would rather see all the Xenos dexes first. Sisters got decent treatment in Chapter Approved and the Index list might be the best they have ever had it. The meta needs more healthy armies and in my fifty plus games of 8ed Sisters are very healthy. Bring on the Aliens and Mutants, I will add them to the piles of burning Heretics I've been making all over.
A reboot of Imperial Agents would be fine for me. I would rather see the SoB units that are lackluster fixed over new units. I can't for the life of me think up a new Sisters unit that isn't marines in boob plate so who needs them. Fix repentia, celestians and the Exorcist and I'm happy. No new units, no need for new models. Drop us as a dex only release (with cards dammit!) with the Inquisitors and Priests, let me play my Cawdor as acolytes and I'm good.
Give us all the baddies, then give us the best of the good guys, the girls. Maybe with a cathedral super heavy tank....
Crimson Devil wrote: You can take solace in the fact that the Sisters players will hate whatever models are released for them.
Why would you say that? If they end being like Celestine and the Geminae I’d love them. If we get more of the resin Canoness V, I might be a bit miffed, but I would get over it as long there are not too many skull-boobs. I’d chuck many of my metal models since my paint jobs just don’t hold up with regular handling and play and wouldn’t have to pin their backpacks.
A slightly tongue in cheek observation I've had during my time on Dakka is that a common characteristic of Sisters players is a hatred of everything about the army.
Arachnofiend wrote: I'd like Corrupted Sisters but I'm a Chaos girl already so I recognize my bias. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Just making them Slaanesh worshipers would be the absolute worst way to do it, of course.
Oh I wouldn't be against making them Chaos, I'm a chaos gal as well..but yeah..the Slaanesh thing. Eughh... Tzeentch at the least. Bird aesthetic would be fitting
ERJAK wrote: Yunno what other army clearly doesn't have any crossover with other army, and a small enough target market that they're probably not viable? Orkz. Why do you think they haven't seen but 1-2 kits or a halfway decent codex since 5th? It's a non-eldar xenos army so it doesn't crossover with anything, and yeah the 20 people who really really love orkz have HUGE armies, but they're not going to be buying anything anymore.
And yeah, Orkz have some mass appeal, the whole faction is a glorified fart joke, but I don't know how many 12 year olds can really afford a horde army at GW prices.
Yes, I'm sure one of the most popular armies since the release of 40k that has consistently sold unit after unit has a small market. The army that has featured in multiple starter sets and has been a massive seller for GW throughout all of 40k, at one point rivalling the popularity of SM and outselling Eldar. You'll notice that most of the range isn't available online for long because of all those people who jumped on to an ork army the minute they became viable.
12year olds don't buy models mate on account of not having an income. Their parents do. They tend to buy whatever their child whinges that they want. text removed. NO need for this Reds8n
I don't understand the complete lack of any logic when discussing sisters. The sole reason they haven't been updated is because they weren't popular. The reason squats were squatted is because they weren't popular. GW can dress things up and cite "design issues" but at the end of the day if they thought there was money to be had by updating or even keeping (in the case of squats) the range they would have done. You can bet your bottom dollar that if Squats did return they would be a completely re-imagined force, nothing like the squats of old. Why? Again because their previous guise didn't sell. It would be commercial suicide to release something that has previously failed.
For all the interest and unquestionable faith (ironic) that people have that plastic sisters would sell, there isn't much noise on this thread.
I'd like to believe you actually know this thread doesn't represent even a fraction of the Sisters' actual fanbase. There's absolutely no way to claim a lack of popularity for anything anymore. GW has brought back less popular things or things that didn't even exist to be popular in the first place. Stop trying to claim that's the reason.
The sad thing is that there is a good way to do Slaaneshi sisters, to go full-bore into the sensations of the religious aspect. Very severely cut habits for that frisson of submission, the loss of self and sublimation into the ecstasy of worship and purging the unworthy on the battlefield, a noise-marine-esque distortion of quasi-gregorian chanting, revelling in the spiritual degradation of your oh-so-unworthy soul, because it feels so good to be proved that you are indeed that sinful.
That’s all mainly fluff of course, and in any case the Internet wouldn’t allow that for long. Within 10 picoseconds of the models hitting the shelves we’d get the first conversions of a BDSM nun lezzing it up with a daemonette or three on the usual sites. Shame.
My preference is to keep them unbending though, it helps them stand out a bit more and allows a reason as to WHY the Ecclesiarchy has some of the clout it does - because faith really can move mountains.
mmzero252 wrote: I'd like to believe you actually know this thread doesn't represent even a fraction of the Sisters' actual fanbase. There's absolutely no way to claim a lack of popularity for anything anymore. GW has brought back less popular things or things that didn't even exist to be popular in the first place. Stop trying to claim that's the reason.
This forum is a fraction of all 40k players. Of course it (to a degree) represents the sisters actual fan base. Of course it's the reason. Look at what GW produces tons and tons of and has just released a load of new kits for - marines. Guess what sells? Marines. Crazy huh? They make new models and release plastic models for the kits that sell best. Almost sounds like they're a business trying to make money.
mmzero252 wrote: I'd like to believe you actually know this thread doesn't represent even a fraction of the Sisters' actual fanbase. There's absolutely no way to claim a lack of popularity for anything anymore. GW has brought back less popular things or things that didn't even exist to be popular in the first place. Stop trying to claim that's the reason.
This forum is a fraction of all 40k players. Of course it (to a degree) represents the sisters actual fan base. Of course it's the reason. Look at what GW produces tons and tons of and has just released a load of new kits for - marines. Guess what sells? Marines. Crazy huh? They make new models and release plastic models for the kits that sell best. Almost sounds like they're a business trying to make money.
in fact I'd argue the demographics on this fourm may be somewhat skewered because we are PASSIONATE 40k fans.And thus we may not represent the typical ones.
mmzero252 wrote: I'd like to believe you actually know this thread doesn't represent even a fraction of the Sisters' actual fanbase. There's absolutely no way to claim a lack of popularity for anything anymore. GW has brought back less popular things or things that didn't even exist to be popular in the first place. Stop trying to claim that's the reason.
This forum is a fraction of all 40k players. Of course it (to a degree) represents the sisters actual fan base. Of course it's the reason. Look at what GW produces tons and tons of and has just released a load of new kits for - marines. Guess what sells? Marines. Crazy huh? They make new models and release plastic models for the kits that sell best. Almost sounds like they're a business trying to make money.
in fact I'd argue the demographics on this fourm may be somewhat skewered because we are PASSIONATE 40k fans.And thus we may not represent the typical ones.
Agreed. Passionate fans that are more likely to want new models for a niche line.
mmzero252 wrote: I'd like to believe you actually know this thread doesn't represent even a fraction of the Sisters' actual fanbase. There's absolutely no way to claim a lack of popularity for anything anymore. GW has brought back less popular things or things that didn't even exist to be popular in the first place. Stop trying to claim that's the reason.
This forum is a fraction of all 40k players. Of course it (to a degree) represents the sisters actual fan base. Of course it's the reason. Look at what GW produces tons and tons of and has just released a load of new kits for - marines. Guess what sells? Marines. Crazy huh? They make new models and release plastic models for the kits that sell best. Almost sounds like they're a business trying to make money.
in fact I'd argue the demographics on this fourm may be somewhat skewered because we are PASSIONATE 40k fans.And thus we may not represent the typical ones.
How about the WH4K Facebook page. The admin of which said that literally everything they post has "where are plastic sisters" responses. Unless the thousands of people that use the GW Facebook are all imaginery.
mmzero252 wrote: I'd like to believe you actually know this thread doesn't represent even a fraction of the Sisters' actual fanbase. There's absolutely no way to claim a lack of popularity for anything anymore. GW has brought back less popular things or things that didn't even exist to be popular in the first place. Stop trying to claim that's the reason.
This forum is a fraction of all 40k players. Of course it (to a degree) represents the sisters actual fan base. Of course it's the reason. Look at what GW produces tons and tons of and has just released a load of new kits for - marines. Guess what sells? Marines. Crazy huh? They make new models and release plastic models for the kits that sell best. Almost sounds like they're a business trying to make money.
in fact I'd argue the demographics on this fourm may be somewhat skewered because we are PASSIONATE 40k fans.And thus we may not represent the typical ones.
How about the WH4K Facebook page. The admin of which said that literally everything they post has "where are plastic sisters" responses. Unless the thousands of people that use the GW Facebook are all imaginery.
Imaginary? No. But you think their playerbase all are on facebook? Or that playerbase that are on it follow GW there? Or even if they follow post?
Not to mention every post having same question is HARDLY informative measurement. For starters it doesn't account who said it. One very passionate SoB fan can easily do same effect. Not very useful for GW...
It might be weird for active forum users but we aren't majority and generally smallest group create most noise in forum type of places. So unless we get bit more detailed analysis than "every post has comment asking for plastic SoB" is not exactly interesting. As said one person could do that easily.
I want new sisters of battle, And new cultest models for my slaanesh army. With no cross over >.< Just no, not now. Maybe in the future when they grow up a bit.
GW has been releasing a lot of stuff that wasn't a guaranteed sell and will keep on doing so. Space Marines will be made as usual, but GW will still try to diversify their portfolio as usual.
I am sorry, but this anti-SoB sentiment feels more like "I don't want womenz in my game" than valid reasoning.
mmzero252 wrote: I'd like to believe you actually know this thread doesn't represent even a fraction of the Sisters' actual fanbase. There's absolutely no way to claim a lack of popularity for anything anymore. GW has brought back less popular things or things that didn't even exist to be popular in the first place. Stop trying to claim that's the reason.
This forum is a fraction of all 40k players. Of course it (to a degree) represents the sisters actual fan base. Of course it's the reason. Look at what GW produces tons and tons of and has just released a load of new kits for - marines. Guess what sells? Marines. Crazy huh? They make new models and release plastic models for the kits that sell best. Almost sounds like they're a business trying to make money.
in fact I'd argue the demographics on this fourm may be somewhat skewered because we are PASSIONATE 40k fans.And thus we may not represent the typical ones.
How about the WH4K Facebook page. The admin of which said that literally everything they post has "where are plastic sisters" responses. Unless the thousands of people that use the GW Facebook are all imaginery.
That isn't what they post though. They post the meme of; "Is it plastic Lion on a plassssticcc Thunnndaarrhawwwk wifff plassstic sissterrerersrsrsrsrs". It's jest. Or it's what we've seen in this forum; "Sisters deserve new models. I DON'T EVEN PLAY THEM but I think they deserve an update."
Eldarsif wrote: GW has been releasing a lot of stuff that wasn't a guaranteed sell and will keep on doing so. Space Marines will be made as usual, but GW will still try to diversify their portfolio as usual.
I am sorry, but this anti-SoB sentiment feels more like "I don't want womenz in my game" than valid reasoning.
So you're completely ignoring the whole "they don't sell", "we're sick of power armour" and "they aren't popular" arguments then? There's no anti-SOB sentiment, people just don't think they'll do particularly well and that's called wasted resource.
in fact I'd argue the demographics on this fourm may be somewhat skewered because we are PASSIONATE 40k fans.And thus we may not represent the typical ones.
Honestly? Most of the time when I see people talk about Dakkadakka it's less "They are passionate fans" and more "They hate everything"
Eldarsif wrote: GW has been releasing a lot of stuff that wasn't a guaranteed sell and will keep on doing so. Space Marines will be made as usual, but GW will still try to diversify their portfolio as usual.
I am sorry, but this anti-SoB sentiment feels more like "I don't want womenz in my game" than valid reasoning.
Thank you for stating the obvious. I meant that honestly. If the ones claiming popularity is the cause here actually had an argument based on any sort of fact, it might be a different story. There's no basis to claim they won't sell well and there's no basis to claim they aren't in this magic number of popularity to be worth new models. It's either a poor attempt at trolling or a bunch of people who think they understand GW.
As one of the loudest voices here against the endless tide of spikey and non-spike marines I should probably comment. I'd be thrilled to see new plastic sisters and may finally consider getting an army for them, since I catagorically will not spend that kind of money on a pewter army missing quite a few of it's options. And before anybody calls me out fo hypocrisy, thematically and aesthetically Sisters are very different to Space Marines. Sure, they're wearing Power Armour but it doesn't look anything like the armour worn by Marines and the models themselves just look completely different, what with being regular human women trained to fight on behalf of the Ecclesiarchy. They play completely differently as well.
dracpanzer wrote: I would rather see all the Xenos dexes first. Sisters got decent treatment in Chapter Approved and the Index list might be the best they have ever had it. The meta needs more healthy armies and in my fifty plus games of 8ed Sisters are very healthy. Bring on the Aliens and Mutants, I will add them to the piles of burning Heretics I've been making all over.
A reboot of Imperial Agents would be fine for me. I would rather see the SoB units that are lackluster fixed over new units. I can't for the life of me think up a new Sisters unit that isn't marines in boob plate so who needs them. Fix repentia, celestians and the Exorcist and I'm happy. No new units, no need for new models. Drop us as a dex only release (with cards dammit!) with the Inquisitors and Priests, let me play my Cawdor as acolytes and I'm good.
Give us all the baddies, then give us the best of the good guys, the girls. Maybe with a cathedral super heavy tank....
You must be the only person alive who doesn't think they need new models.
So you're completely ignoring the whole "they don't sell", "we're sick of power armour" and "they aren't popular" arguments then? There's no anti-SOB sentiment, people just don't think they'll do particularly well and that's called wasted resource.
By "people" you mean yourself, because you are literally the only one here arguing that nobody would by them, despite all evidence to the contrary.
I think there really should be a few Xenos first. It is sad we have been so swamped with Imperial and esepcially Marines dexes that I have to say this.
An annoucement of say Orcs and Tau would be greta - they are enemies of each other and the Imperium and so their release could actulally be less Imperial focussed.
Then Do a major sisters release then back to Xenos with Necrons and Genestealer Cults followed by Emperors Children and World Eaters, finish off with Agents, Space Wolves and Knights.
So you're completely ignoring the whole "they don't sell", "we're sick of power armour" and "they aren't popular" arguments then? There's no anti-SOB sentiment, people just don't think they'll do particularly well and that's called wasted resource.
What arguments? At best I have seen disingenuous statements from you that have been countered time and time again.
I shall however go over these again for sake of posterity.
Sisters of Battle do sell otherwise GW wouldn't bother having a metal line in print for years and years and bother making a plastic Celestine(releasing a digital codex, keeping them in the index, writing stories about them, etc etc you get the picture). We have also discussed why they haven't sold as well as other normal lines and that is because this is an all-metal, direct only, and expensive army. To compare them to popular lines such as marines who are the cheapest and most accessible army is outright dishonest.
There is no indication that the army isn't popular and more evidence that it is and rising in popularity. If you mean popularity solely based on how well they sell then I am going to point to the above paragraph about all-metal, direct only, and cost. Rinse and repeat as required. Seriously, a ten-man squad of Serpahims is about 60 pounds. You can get a captain, ten-man squad, and a Venerable Dreadnough for less, in plastic, and most FLGS will stock the boxes.
"We're sick of power armor" is a bit disingenuous statement as most people are just tired of "Space Marines" unless you want to imply that T3 nuns are actually Space Marines, but then you've kinda argued yourself into a corner since Space Marines sell well according to your statements.
I guess you think Harlequins, Ad Mech, Genestealer Cults, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, and so on are all wasted resources or is this opinion of yours solely tied to Sisters of Battle because you have some weird hate for female models? At this point I am genuinely curious to know because I do hope you argued as much against each and every aforementioned line as much as you have argued against the Sisters.
Many people said BB had no market. Everyone and their mothers was doing alternative teams for literally all the roster, the rules were perfect with the LRB, etc... and then, BOOM. It was such a big hit even for GW that they weren't capable of continue putting out models and teams fast enough.
how would you feel if Battle Sisters were to follow after Thousand Sons?
I would say "about goddamn time, finally", and I am a xenos player with 1994-1999 year and various 3d to 4th edition vintage models taking I think more than 30% of the Codex.
I really liked old Inquisition army composition, with imperial agents, space battle popes and battle nuns, and pipe organs instead of heavy support. The aesthetic was wacky and full of strange detail, not like dull and clean GK or Custodes. Trully gothic-style army. Now there's only Celestine left, flying into battle with her katachan musclemen and beautiful bloodangels on jetpacks as her brave new sisters - or whatever. Yay.
An Actual Englishman wrote:Let me ask all ya'll Sisters guys a question then . . .
If you're going to steal a "word" from us Southerners, at least spell it correctly. It's "y'all". It's a contraction of "you" and "all".
Galas wrote:I'm sure their lack of popularty has to do with [Insert here reason] and not with the fact that they are a 20 year old range of full metal and very expensive miniatures that can be only bought by direct-order to GW website.
And the "Sisters weren't popular back in the day" isn't a real reason for their actual situation. You know what wasn't popular? Dark Eldars. Do you know what was, at the time, as popular as space marines and Imperial Guard? Squats.
For me the only reason they been abandoned all this time? Nobody in the GW studio is really a fan of them, and they can't come up with something that they think is "good enough". That, and Kirby management.
Exactly this. It's hard to justify starting an army when doing so requires the purchase of outdated metal models that cost twice as much as an equivalent unit for any other army. Sisters of Battle are easily me favorite organization from the 40k setting, and are literally the only army I would start on release day rather than waiting for a Start Collecting or Battleforce kit. The only thing stopping me from playing them is my complete distaste for building and painting pewter models.
So you're completely ignoring the whole "they don't sell", "we're sick of power armour" and "they aren't popular" arguments then? There's no anti-SOB sentiment, people just don't think they'll do particularly well and that's called wasted resource.
What arguments? At best I have seen disingenuous statements from you that have been countered time and time again.
I shall however go over these again for sake of posterity.
Sisters of Battle do sell otherwise GW wouldn't bother having a metal line in print for years and years and bother making a plastic Celestine(releasing a digital codex, keeping them in the index, writing stories about them, etc etc you get the picture). We have also discussed why they haven't sold as well as other normal lines and that is because this is an all-metal, direct only, and expensive army. To compare them to popular lines such as marines who are the cheapest and most accessible army is outright dishonest.
There is no indication that the army isn't popular and more evidence that it is and rising in popularity. If you mean popularity solely based on how well they sell then I am going to point to the above paragraph about all-metal, direct only, and cost. Rinse and repeat as required. Seriously, a ten-man squad of Serpahims is about 60 pounds. You can get a captain, ten-man squad, and a Venerable Dreadnough for less, in plastic, and most FLGS will stock the boxes.
"We're sick of power armor" is a bit disingenuous statement as most people are just tired of "Space Marines" unless you want to imply that T3 nuns are actually Space Marines, but then you've kinda argued yourself into a corner since Space Marines sell well according to your statements.
I guess you think Harlequins, Ad Mech, Genestealer Cults, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, and so on are all wasted resources or is this opinion of yours solely tied to Sisters of Battle because you have some weird hate for female models? At this point I am genuinely curious to know because I do hope you argued as much against each and every aforementioned line as much as you have argued against the Sisters.
So let me make myself clear. Sisters have already proved not to sell. Why do you think they aren't in plastic as we speak? Why do you think we don't have resin models for them? Some sinister plot from GW to get rid of them? To troll people who want them? Or perhaps because GW believes that they wouldn't make any money from them? What do you feel is the most likely? Do I know this for a fact? No. Can we make very safe and common assumptions given how GW (and any other business, for that matter) reacts to demand? Yes, yes we can. There is nothing disingenuous about this and I'm sorry you're taking things so hard/personally but it is what it is. Businesses react to sales and profit. Guess what it means if your army is the last to be updated? You're the least profitable. If the outdated range of an army in question was more profitable (say, than Orks), they would be updated before Orks. Quite simple logic really.
It costs GW virtually nothing to run a few models in pewter. Particularly when they sell them for roughly the same price as a kidney. It takes volume to justify plastic, volume that (we can assume) Sisters just don't have.
The argument of "Sisters are unpopular because they are in pewter" is garbage, they are in pewter because they are or at least were unpopular. You have confused cause and effect. There was a time, not too long ago, when ALL MODELS WERE IN PEWTER. What was their excuse for not selling then? Why did GW not update them to plastic as soon as possible to milk that big fat cash cow?
Now, perhaps the demographic of people who play 40k has drastically changed since the days of all metal minis. Perhaps there's a massive market for Sisters now. This I don't know. I doubt it, but I might be wrong. Either way I can see why GW are reluctant to update them.
You read the OP? It's asking specifically how people would feel if Sisters were next codex. Xenos players throughout the World are rolling their eyes at the prospect. I know I certainly am.
I'm glad you asked about other lines, I'm really not sure why you think I have a hatred of female models, it's a very strange assumption/projection for you to make. Feels a lot like strawmanning but I might be wrong.
Harlies - cross over with Eldar and not a particularly massive risk since it's not the first time we've seen models for them. Small release also so not too costly (low model count) to develop and I suspect with their OMFGAWESOME rules in 8th they are pretty popular. The models are also beautiful and you don't need a lot of minis to make a force of them, which helps sell. I don't think they'll ever sell as a primary standalone force and (as daft as it sounds) I think a big part of the reason is because the minis are a little too daunting to paint, particularly for a new hobbyist. They just look incredible on the box art and I can imagine 13 year old me crying as he repeatedly fails to do decent diamond patterns.
Ad Mech - I think they are popular, they were launched at the right time (lots of books/fluff) and have a certain mystique about them. There is the Imperial crossover which also helps players who want to mix them in to an existing force so they're not too dangerous a release (as, say, a standalone Xenos force) because people can buy fewer options to fit them in to an army. They fulfill a niche with regards Imperial players as they are one of the most "neutral" forces that exists IMO. Strong release.
GSC - I don't think are very popular but I don't think they're particularly costly as a release either. So many of their units cross over with Imperial Guard and Nids and they slot perfectly into either as an additional force. I think they were an attractive release to GW because they are one of (the only?) faction that has cross over of both Imperial players and Xenos players which is very rare and they could be used as a litmus test for this sort of force. Also not the first time we've seen their minis so they likely had market information from then that factored into the decision.
I don't think Necromunda has been as profitable as GW would have liked. I don't see it played much and Shadow War Armageddon is a very similar game (if not in terms of rules in terms of theme). Necromunda is tricky because the factions are cool but they can't slot in to existing 40k forces which feels really stupid to me. If there were some way of putting the gangs in 40k I think it would be a lot more popular.
I think they took a gamble on Bloodbowl given the popularity of the PC games. The PC games may have helped increase the market but again I'm not convinced it has been particularly profitable. Then again it's sold through FW so there is that.
EnTyme wrote: If you're going to steal a "word" from us Southerners, at least spell it correctly. It's "y'all". It's a contraction of "you" and "all".
Apologies, phone autocorrect is a bitch. Now let me give you some spellings; mathS, coloUr, favoUr. If you can adopt the proper Queen's English when you speak I'd appreciate it.
In regards to the original question (and not the idiot argument going on above) I would be ecstatic. I have over 10k of fully painted and based Sisters and transports and I would quite happily buy that over again in plastic.
Amishprn86 wrote: You and we dont know they "didnt" sell well enough for them, and we dont know if its the investors telling them not to update them.
We dont know, no one will know unless GW themselves says so.
No, we don't know for sure, but do you have a more plausible reason? Why do you think the investors would tell GW not to update them? Investors like money dude. If they thought there'd be a return on their release they'd do it in a heartbeat.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: In regards to the original question (and not the idiot argument going on above) I would be ecstatic. I have over 10k of fully painted and based Sisters and transports and I would quite happily buy that over again in plastic.
WOW thats a lot lol, i have like 90 ish metal bodies, and i too would re-buy them in a heart beat.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: In regards to the original question (and not the idiot argument going on above) I would be ecstatic. I have over 10k of fully painted and based Sisters and transports and I would quite happily buy that over again in plastic.
WOW thats a lot lol, i have like 90 ish metal bodies, and i too would re-buy them in a heart beat.
Yeah I have a few hundred of the metla models which i like and hundreds of pounds waiting for the plastics
What exactly makes you think a sisters release would ahve to be significantly bigger than the GSC/Harlequin/Admech releases that you justified as a "small investment"?
GSC: 2 clampack sprues (upgrade kit and iconward), 1 large vehicle kit, 2 infantry squad boxes, 1 command squad box.
Admech: 1 large vehicle, 1 small vehicle, 2 large elite infantry boxes, 2 small elite infantry boxes, 1 infantry squad box, 1 clampack.
Sisters (not counting existing plastics): 1 vehicle kit (includes Rhino sprue which exists already), 1 small vehicle (Penitent/maybe something new as dual kit), 2 small elite infantry boxes (Repentia and Seraphim each with a chance for a dual option), 1 troop box, 1 clampack for a canoness.
If their 10-model troop kit included a melta, flamer, storm bolter, heavy bolter, multi-melta, heavy flamer, a banner with two options for tops, and a few sets of melee gear/special pistols for the superiors, and a variety of head options, you would right there cover like 7 units plus Dialogus/Imagifier.
Compare that to the GSC release and you need 1 fewer clampack and 1 more small 5-model elite box. 2 fewer clampacks, 2 more elite boxes than harlequins. Nowhere near admech.
They are re-releasing projects with the existing fanbase the size of the existing Genestealer Cult fanbase, the existing Necromunda fanbase, and the existing Blood Bowl fanbase. The sisters fanbase is big enough to compete. We're there, man.
A full sisters release is pretty much inevitable at this point, the only question is when is a good time for GW to release them. My guess is around the summer or an announcement/preview at a big con.
the_scotsman wrote: What exactly makes you think a sisters release would ahve to be significantly bigger than the GSC/Harlequin/Admech releases that you justified as a "small investment"
Nothing, for me, but the sisters fan base seems to have very high expectations about what they'll get (apart from the bloke who was happy with just a codex previously lol) so maybe that factors in to it. You make a good point, I don't think there'll be a release this summer though. We got Custardes to get through yet and that didn't go down particularly well.
the_scotsman wrote: What exactly makes you think a sisters release would ahve to be significantly bigger than the GSC/Harlequin/Admech releases that you justified as a "small investment"
Nothing, for me, but the sisters fan base seems to have very high expectations about what they'll get (apart from the bloke who was happy with just a codex previously lol) so maybe that factors in to it. You make a good point, I don't think there'll be a release this summer though. We got Custardes to get through yet and that didn't go down particularly well.
This is because you're clearly an Ork player or something and have no intention or care if Sisters even existed. Just stop with your moronic argument. Nobody cares.
mmzero252 wrote: This is because you're clearly an Ork player or something and have no intention or care if Sisters even existed. Just stop with your moronic argument. Nobody cares.
Yea I'm an ork player and I couldn't care less if sister existed or not. That doesn't make my argument "moronic" though. Stuff that doesn't sell (unsurprisingly) doesn't get invested in. Welcome to the wonderful world of business.
hell at this point sisters are basically a honorary xenos army with their treatment.
plastic sisters would be what finally gets me to build a human based army honestly
GW has a long history of leaving money on the table and being "shocked" at how well something sells when they do finally release it. See: Dark Eldar, Blood Bowl. I wouldn't read anything into their release schedule other than their biases and a modicum of incompetence.
Did DE sell well? They lost a whole lot after their peak with new Codex, as heroes new and old were forgotten due to not getting new miniatures (like Sliscus etc.)
Shadenuat wrote: Did DE sell well? They lost a whole lot after their peak with new Codex, as heroes new and old were forgotten due to not getting new miniatures (like Sliscus etc.)
Dark Eldar were the last "Grand army release" for a good reason.
Dark Eldar had: 3 large vehicle kits, 2 small vehicle/monster kits, 6 5-man elite unit boxes, 2 10-man troop unit boxes, and something like 14 clampacks. Virtually nothing besides a couple old clampacks were preserved.
That right there is what you call an actual big investment risk, 3-4 times the size of any of the current large model range releases. They did fairly well, but the investment was obviously a big enough risk that GW has never done it again, even large model range reboots like Necrons that came after were half that size or less.
Even if they went completely all-out with the sisters release, redesigned the Exorcist as a non rhino-based vehicle and gave it a second optional variant, threw in a brand new flyer, and added 2-3 new clampack special characters, they would never even come close to half the size of the DE reboot. the DE reboot included more kits than Admech, GSC, and Harlequins combined.
the_scotsman wrote: What exactly makes you think a sisters release would ahve to be significantly bigger than the GSC/Harlequin/Admech releases that you justified as a "small investment"
Nothing, for me, but the sisters fan base seems to have very high expectations about what they'll get (apart from the bloke who was happy with just a codex previously lol) so maybe that factors in to it. You make a good point, I don't think there'll be a release this summer though. We got Custardes to get through yet and that didn't go down particularly well.
I'm happy with what we have, too, otherwise I would be using the money to buy 3 times the number of Imperial Guardsmen.
We tend to get antsy becauseGW can release completely new 3-unit tiny factions like the Custodians, while still passing us over, when almost our entire line would be covered by 3 infantry sprues.
The thing is, any plastic stuff would be targeted at new players joining us. I've said this before. Current Sisters players both already have a fair amount of stuff, and are willing to pay $80 for basic infantry squads. I don't really put much stock in plastic-sisters rumors, I'd just like a vaguely decent codex that acknowledges us as a faction.
mmzero252 wrote: This is because you're clearly an Ork player or something and have no intention or care if Sisters even existed. Just stop with your moronic argument. Nobody cares.
Yea I'm an ork player and I couldn't care less if sister existed or not. That doesn't make my argument "moronic" though. Stuff that doesn't sell (unsurprisingly) doesn't get invested in. Welcome to the wonderful world of business.
But your argument is "I don't like them, so no one else does."
I honestly think Sisters are being kept back till Summer to get a big relaunch as sort of a celebration that all the army books are updated to 8th. I have to be honest though, I'm not sure I'd re-buy an entire army of them. I have plenty of basic girls so I'd only buy a few normal girls, I would buy multiple Repentia and Seraphim boxes though since I have the least of them.
Sim-Life wrote: But your argument is "I don't like them, so no one else does."
I'd suggest you read my posts again because you've obviously misinterpreted my argument. It is completely irrelevant if I like them or not, THE MARKET seems to 'not like them' because if they were popular they'd have been invested in already.
I agree with Katherine, new models are for new sisters players. GW need to make a decision as to what that looks like in terms of potential sales.
Going back to OP’s question, at this point I could care less about which codexes get released next. What does matter to me is how much time it takes to get to the codexes I want. If Orks get their codex dead last but due to rapid-fire release schedule it still gets published by summer, then that’s great. If we get 2 more codexes this year and Orks get pushed back until 2019, then I’m annoyed even though orks are relatively close to the front of the queue. Hopefully GW ramps up their schedule so that everyone can get what they want.
No, we don't know for sure, but do you have a more plausible reason? Why do you think the investors would tell GW not to update them? Investors like money dude. If they thought there'd be a return on their release they'd do it in a heartbeat.
Stuff that doesn't sell (unsurprisingly) doesn't get invested in. Welcome to the wonderful world of business.
You really think investors are in the down and dirty with information and what the playerbase wants? You seriously overestimate investors intentions and involvement. Considering the fact that you brush over years of Kirby reign and the downright atrocious plans they had then.
Again, you have no data to back up the data that sisters don't sell well. This is just baseless guesses on your part. I might sound cruel for pointing this out, but at this point everybody has gone over why you might be wrong and you're still using limited view of business reasoning that does not have much basis in the real world. I mean, if the world really worked by your way of thinking we wouldn't even have a game or movie industry as it would be "too risky" by your own words. Do we get Star Wars and Call of Duty year after year? Yes, but that doesn't stop studios from diversifying their portfolio by releasing new and often weird stuff in an attempt to get a larger market share. Hell, even gakky/low market share IP like Hellraiser are getting a new damn movie soon and Sony Films keeps on doing horrible movies despite losses.
Here is the thing: You have absolutely no idea how Sisters would sell as your argument for that they will not sell is based either off their release decades ago or their expensive, direct order, metal version compared to easily accessible and cheap plastic factions(that you think there is a comparison between the two is just laughable). The fact that they are still being sold while more affordable and accessible lines are available tells us that the line is doing fine all things considered. Especially considering the fact that GW has currently had no qualms about cancelling metal and finecast molds. We could also throw in the mix that Third Party are doing rather well making female models that could be used as sisters and/or kits that would allow you to modify existing Warhammer models. In fact, there is a large Facebook group(600+ people) who are doing just that: kitbashing marines into female power armor models.
It would also not be a huge risk as they can make the core kits(that could have multiple variations like the Deathwing Terminator box) while keeping some kits still in metal. Hell, if they would release plastic for Battle Sister Squad, Repentia, Seraphim, and a rhino chassis(with the unique options involved) it would be about 4 kits while other parts of the army could still remain metal. That in itself would be a game changer and a smaller release than some of the more recent "risky" investments that you have no qualms about. If we would take the optimal list in its entirety it would be something like.
Rhino variants
Battle Sister Squad/Options for Command Squad that includes canoness
Penitent Engine
Repentia Squad
Seraphim Squad
This would be about the same size as the Genestealer Cult release.
Sim-Life wrote: But your argument is "I don't like them, so no one else does."
I'd suggest you read my posts again because you've obviously misinterpreted my argument. It is completely irrelevant if I like them or not, THE MARKET seems to 'not like them' because if they were popular they'd have been invested in already.
I agree with Katherine, new models are for new sisters players. GW need to make a decision as to what that looks like in terms of potential sales.
As a dedicated genestealer cult player, sisters are move viable than a nitch army that was used to push more delaque and imperial guard back in second edition. Sisters have at least been mentioned in the last five editions. And yet, I've got cool plastic genestealer cult. After most of us gave up and walked a way editions ago.
No, we don't know for sure, but do you have a more plausible reason? Why do you think the investors would tell GW not to update them? Investors like money dude. If they thought there'd be a return on their release they'd do it in a heartbeat.
Stuff that doesn't sell (unsurprisingly) doesn't get invested in. Welcome to the wonderful world of business.
You really think investors are in the down and dirty with information and what the playerbase wants? You seriously overestimate investors intentions and involvement. Considering the fact that you brush over years of Kirby reign and the downright atrocious plans they had then.
Again, you have no data to back up the data that sisters don't sell well. This is just baseless guesses on your part. I might sound cruel for pointing this out, but at this point everybody has gone over why you might be wrong and you're still using limited view of business reasoning that does not have much basis in the real world. I mean, if the world really worked by your way of thinking we wouldn't even have a game or movie industry as it would be "too risky" by your own words. Do we get Star Wars and Call of Duty year after year? Yes, but that doesn't stop studios from diversifying their portfolio by releasing new and often weird stuff in an attempt to get a larger market share. Hell, even gakky/low market share IP like Hellraiser are getting a new damn movie soon and Sony Films keeps on doing horrible movies despite losses.
Here is the thing: You have absolutely no idea how Sisters would sell as your argument for that they will not sell is based either off their release decades ago or their expensive, direct order, metal version compared to easily accessible and cheap plastic factions(that you think there is a comparison between the two is just laughable). The fact that they are still being sold while more affordable and accessible lines are available tells us that the line is doing fine all things considered. Especially considering the fact that GW has currently had no qualms about cancelling metal and finecast molds. We could also throw in the mix that Third Party are doing rather well making female models that could be used as sisters and/or kits that would allow you to modify existing Warhammer models. In fact, there is a large Facebook group(600+ people) who are doing just that: kitbashing marines into female power armor models.
It would also not be a huge risk as they can make the core kits(that could have multiple variations like the Deathwing Terminator box) while keeping some kits still in metal. Hell, if they would release plastic for Battle Sister Squad, Repentia, Seraphim, and a rhino chassis(with the unique options involved) it would be about 4 kits while other parts of the army could still remain metal. That in itself would be a game changer and a smaller release than some of the more recent "risky" investments that you have no qualms about. If we would take the optimal list in its entirety it would be something like.
Rhino variants
Battle Sister Squad/Options for Command Squad that includes canoness
Penitent Engine
Repentia Squad
Seraphim Squad
This would be about the same size as the Genestealer Cult release.
To add to this, there's even less risk because the rhino variant could literally be a top piece and accessories. It could be a "Rhino Upgrade Kit".
I have no doubt that a sisters release would see big sales at least initially. GW if nothing else has an effective hype machine and that with a combination of the existing player base as well as those who have held off for fear of the dreaded 'mee-tall' means the amount of plastic they'd need to recreate the existing line in plastic is a relatively safe investment. Ideally their transition to plastic would resemble the one the Grey Knights went through, a success that was so complete that its truly the point where 'plastic sisters soon' started.
We can glean that the sisters still remain relatively active in terms of sales on the website, as availability of the line's more competitive (or middling competitive but very fun) entries remains shakey relative to demand. (Presently the storm bolter and penitent engine are back in stock, melta seems stable and heavy bolter maintains its record by being unavailable for weeks and selling out in under 24 hours.) Suggesting that, at least on that scale, GW is seeing demand outstrip supply.
Then you get curious case of Canoness Veridyan who, while limited to one per customer and surrounded by very vocal criticism about the model's look and anticipated quality, managed to sell out in under 30 minutes, well exceeding the demand of a typical 'event' style release.
How on earth is it "naive business reasoning" to assume that a business will build something that sells and will focus its efforts on these endeavours and will do the opposite to those items that don't sell? This is exactly how the real world works mate.
I've asked someone else and I'll ask you - give me a better reason. Explain to me a more plausible reason why GW haven't released plastic sisters yet? Show me where someone, anyone, has provided a more likely reason for the lack of investment in the line? Or are we back to the 'grand and malicious plan by GW to troll sisters players for eternity' (despite that making 0 sense)?
Investors don't have contact with the end user sure but I suspect, somehow, that they have incredibly detailed breakdowns of sales across all lines. I wonder what those sales figures have revealed?
The only thing I can agree with you on is that the market has probably changed and sisters might sell better now. Might. Keeping the metal line doesn't represent profitability by the way. They might have avoided "squatting" because GW fears the negative reception of the fan base to this would be worse than the cost of keeping them going as is.
This discussion is proving pointless, it's like arguing with a wall of non reason, like what I imagine discussing something with a chaos god is like. No one apart from GW employees know how well sisters sold way back when and no one knows how well they'd sell now. I have given you my belief as to why I think they didn't sell well back in the day. You have your opinions as to why they did (despite literally all evidence to the contrary).
An Actual Englishman wrote: [
So let me make myself clear. Sisters have already proved not to sell. Why do you think they aren't in plastic as we speak? Why do you think we don't have resin models for them? Some sinister plot from GW to get rid of them? To troll people who want them? Or perhaps because GW believes that they wouldn't make any money from them? What do you feel is the most likely?
You realize there can be easily other reasons than "not sell" don't you? GW is known for fact having quit entire game that they green lighted and exceeded their own sales expectations by _400%_.
You do NOT green light something if you don't expect it to sell sufficiently. Then it sells 400% more than you expected. And it gets canned. According to you it did not sell enough. Then why green light it in a first place investing resources if exceeding your own expectations by 400% is not enough?
Back in the day GW canned all their specialist games not because they weren't profitable (They were); but because they wanted to ride the ESDLA bubble and focus on their three big games.
To say that the only reason GW doesn't invest in something is because "It isn't profitable" is just being ignorant of the past of the company. Do you know the reason they did "Shadespire", the first big 100% competitive GW game, was because they where thinkering with how good push-fit miniatures they could do, and once they did them, the designer thought "Ey, this is too good to just sell them in Easy to Build kits, can we make a game to sell them?" and they said "Yes". BOOM. Shadespire was born. And this was said by the own designer of Shadespire.
Thats why I remain firm in my opinion of the reason GW hasn't done a proper SoB release: 100% girls don't sell bias and nobody was fan of them in the studio.
Galas wrote: Back in the day GW canned all their specialist games not because they weren't profitable (They were); but because they wanted to ride the ESDLA bubble and focus on their three big games.
Remind me what their 'big 3 games' are again and also what game Sisters belong to?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: But if girls don't sell, why bother making Escher or a lady chaos character for AoS? That theory is inconsistent with their recent activity.
GW said too that they where surprised how well SoS sold, just like Custodes. All those female models? The Custodes ladies, the Chaos Barbarian Warqueen, etc... they are testing the waters.
Looking back, this thread didnt even last 2 posts before the anti sister sentiment attitudes derailed this thread and now we have arguments.
None of what is being argued has anything to do with the topic.
Get back on topic and remain on topic or take your emotional arguments to your own pointless 'sisters should be squatted' thread for the mods to close down.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Nothing, for me, but the sisters fan base seems to have very high expectations about what they'll get (apart from the bloke who was happy with just a codex previously lol) so maybe that factors in to it. You make a good point, I don't think there'll be a release this summer though. We got Custardes to get through yet and that didn't go down particularly well.
I said I would be more than happy being rolled into an Imperial Agents Codex long after all the Xenos dexes were out. Just fix our problem units and give me some Sororitas objective cards!
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Looking back, this thread didnt even last 2 posts before the anti sister sentiment attitudes derailed this thread and now we have arguments.
None of what is being argued has anything to do with the topic.
Get back on topic and remain on topic or take your emotional arguments to your own pointless 'sisters should be squatted' thread for the mods to close down.
If Sisters of Battle are next codex after Custodes then Thousand Sons how would you feel?
Shocked. Surprised. I'd have the urge to buy a lottery ticket.
But saying sisters probably aren't popular sales-wise and that's the reason they probably haven't done them - that's not anti-sister. That's just reality. Sisters fans are loud and vocal, anyone who's frequented any forum will know that. That doesn't make them a majority or even significant in numbers though. GW are money grubbers, they follow the money. If there was money in sisters, they'd have done it.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Looking back, this thread didnt even last 2 posts before the anti sister sentiment attitudes derailed this thread and now we have arguments.
None of what is being argued has anything to do with the topic.
Get back on topic and remain on topic or take your emotional arguments to your own pointless 'sisters should be squatted' thread for the mods to close down.
If Sisters of Battle are next codex after Custodes then Thousand Sons how would you feel?
Shocked. Surprised. I'd have the urge to buy a lottery ticket.
But saying sisters probably aren't popular sales-wise and that's the reason they probably haven't done them - that's not anti-sister. That's just reality. Sisters fans are loud and vocal, anyone who's frequented any forum will know that. That doesn't make them a majority or even significant in numbers though. GW are money grubbers, they follow the money. If there was money in sisters, they'd have done it.
It's 100% anti-sister. What other faction that hasn't seen significant releases in a while have people said SHOULDN'T get released other than Sisters? In fact, take a look here.
Here are a list of factions that sell perfectly fine now that sold about the same or worse than Sisters in second edition, when the majority of SoB sculpts were released:
Gene-stealer Cults
Deathwatch
Custodes
Sisters of Silence
Necrons
Tau
Admech
Dark Eldar
Slaanesh(...ish. they honestly sell pretty close to SoB overall adjusted to how much worse SoB fair in cost.)
Grey-Knights
Imperial Knights
Harlequins
Most of these armies didn't exist back then and were made in response to consumer demand(hey, where have I seen that before?) or just the GW studio getting a wild hair up their butt about anime or something. All of them were massive risks. Others, like Gene-stealer cults, dark eldar, and Slaanesh, actually did sell like doggak until GW put out some cool stuff to refresh the line(Slaanesh got the smallest number of new releases and the small jump. It's almost like there's a pattern their Ron) and they took off like wild-fire(Like plenty of people claim a certain army would)
SoB are the ONLY army in the game that get this kind of pushback when it comes to a new release. No other army gets the same type of Sales=Releases talk that SoB get. No one says 'it'd be stupid to release Slaanesh because the don't sell' even though by all rights they don't. No one says 'Oh, Orkz aren't getting new releases 'cause the line doesn't sell and doesn't really have much appeal' In fact, the only other faction that gets ANY complaints about getting new stuff(not 'aww I wanted stuff instead' but 'you shouldn't have gotten things') is Space marines and that's because they get TOO MUCH stuff. Even Inquisition doesn't face the same montras despite being in the exact same situation.
Look at all the complaining about Xenos armies we've been seeing lately, and apply this same logic. If Sisters aren't being made because there's no market for them and because they would sell poorly then it stands to reason that Xenos aren't being made because they sell poorly and there's no market for them.
I will say it again, if you honestly believe that Sisters are not seeing, and/or should not see a release because they don't sell well, that's fair so long as you attribute the same logic to the lack of Xenos and Slaanesh releases.
ERJAK wrote: It's 100% anti-sister. What other faction that hasn't seen significant releases in a while have people said SHOULDN'T get released other than Sisters? In fact, take a look here.
Who is saying they *shouldn't* get released? What people are saying is there's probably a good reason they're not getting released.
ERJAK wrote: Here are a list of factions that sell perfectly fine now that sold about the same or worse than Sisters in second edition, when the majority of SoB sculpts were released:
Gene-stealer Cults
Deathwatch
Custodes
Sisters of Silence
Necrons
Tau
Admech
Dark Eldar
Slaanesh(...ish. they honestly sell pretty close to SoB overall adjusted to how much worse SoB fair in cost.)
Grey-Knights
Imperial Knights
Harlequins
Most of these armies didn't exist back then and were made in response to consumer demand(hey, where have I seen that before?) or just the GW studio getting a wild hair up their butt about anime or something. All of them were massive risks. Others, like Gene-stealer cults, dark eldar, and Slaanesh, actually did sell like doggak until GW put out some cool stuff to refresh the line(Slaanesh got the smallest number of new releases and the small jump. It's almost like there's a pattern their Ron) and they took off like wild-fire(Like plenty of people claim a certain army would)
Most of your list existed in 3rd edition and before (2nd). I won't go as far as 1st. But as far as it goes, yes there are people that say certain armies shouldn't exist, and i'm certainly one of them. But you're right - gw releases armies based on consumer demand. They have how many decades of figures telling them what the demand for sisters were. I find it interesting you included slaanesh on your list - it wasn't that long ago they released new daemonettes and chariots for slaanesh. To be honest, i'm not entirely sure what your list is about - you've listed the things that gw has released lately. Some of them were more popular than others. Where's the sisters bias here?
ERJAK wrote: SoB are the ONLY army in the game that get this kind of pushback when it comes to a new release. No other army gets the same type of Sales=Releases talk that SoB get. No one says 'it'd be stupid to release Slaanesh because the don't sell' even though by all rights they don't. No one says 'Oh, Orkz aren't getting new releases 'cause the line doesn't sell and doesn't really have much appeal' In fact, the only other faction that gets ANY complaints about getting new stuff(not 'aww I wanted stuff instead' but 'you shouldn't have gotten things') is Space marines and that's because they get TOO MUCH stuff. Even Inquisition doesn't face the same montras despite being in the exact same situation.
Look at all the complaining about Xenos armies we've been seeing lately, and apply this same logic. If Sisters aren't being made because there's no market for them and because they would sell poorly then it stands to reason that Xenos aren't being made because they sell poorly and there's no market for them.
...... But that's exactly what people say. Xenos armies aren't marines, so they get pushed back. They don't make the same profits, so they're sidelined. All things considered, it doesn't seem that far off. How is noting that a bias in any way? Honestly, i don't give a flying crap if sisters are released or not, but to say that there seems to be a reason they're not getting released isn't bias. I'm not sure what your obsession with slaanesh is, but i'm starting to warm to it. lol.
ERJAK wrote: I will say it again, if you honestly believe that Sisters are not seeing, and/or should not see a release because they don't sell well, that's fair so long as you attribute the same logic to the lack of Xenos and Slaanesh releases.
I just... I can't.... Wow. I read the forum periodically, and that's exactly what people say. Orks, necrons, tau, tyranids. I've been following the game since 1st edition. Things are a little different this edition, but overall it's the same old same old. The 'less popular' armies get the least attention, and/or the biggest price gouges. Ork artillery pieces? Like yeah, i think you're supporting a different argument and are not aware of it.
On a sidenote, i'm genuinely interested in your contention with slaanesh. How exactly are they getting treated worse than sisters yet getting more attention? Is this your local meta?
So, coming at this from the standpoint of a Sister's player. For the original question, I would be surprised if an Adepta Sororitas/Ministorum codex came out after Thousand Suns. I'm honestly willing to "wait my turn", assuming that Sisters are going to get a turn. I'd rather wait and get updated models, then just receive a codex update. This is on top of the problem that GW has been removing codex options that don't have models, and the sisters have several options that doen't have models, such as seraphim inferno pistols.
As for popularity and saleibility, half the players at my FLGS have said they'd start a sisters army if it was affordable. That not half the 40K players, or even half the GW players, but half the regulars. My store also has a relatively large feminist and TG community, and most of them were interested as well (btw, don't suggest slaanesh as an option to them, makes them angry). As it stands, I was the only regular player there who used sisters. While I have a nice sized army, I'd still invest a decent chunk into new sisters, if only to add variety to my existing forces, and to expand my collection. Yes I know that this is anecdotal, and particular to my gaming store, but I have seen similar responses online and in person elsewhere. There is a demand for improvements to the army. New units, new options, new thematically appropriate upgrades, new models. There are also ways GW can get even old players who are content with their collections to buy new stuff, such as the before mentioned new units.
As for the pushback on this forum, all I can say is it's kind of there. At least a portion of it is due to how often this topic comes up. Though one questions the logic in joining a thread that has a topic you don't care about. But there's definitely some there. The "Sisters don't deserve to be an army" crowd being the biggest. Pretty sure an army that has two special characters, an HQ, and two of every force org but troops and with three dedicated transports (all of this NOT counting ministorum and inquisitional units) makes a codex. 3/4ths of the 'ministorum' list ARE sisters of battle. The rest being a special character, four elite choices and a heavy support choice. Sisters however arn't the only army that I've seen get this treatment though. Just before the Blood Angels and Dark Angels dropped last year, there were huge derailments on their News/Rumors threads about how they should just be folded into Codex: space marines.
Finally: Chaos sisters. Dosn't fit the current fluff (which can be changed). But if GW was to make sisters who fell to chaos, there should be representation to all the chaos gods. To just do Slaanesh is flat out sexism in a day and age that sees GW trying to get away from.
ERJAK wrote: It's 100% anti-sister. What other faction that hasn't seen significant releases in a while have people said SHOULDN'T get released other than Sisters? In fact, take a look here.
Who is saying they *shouldn't* get released? What people are saying is there's probably a good reason they're not getting released.
ERJAK wrote: Here are a list of factions that sell perfectly fine now that sold about the same or worse than Sisters in second edition, when the majority of SoB sculpts were released:
Gene-stealer Cults
Deathwatch
Custodes
Sisters of Silence
Necrons
Tau
Admech
Dark Eldar
Slaanesh(...ish. they honestly sell pretty close to SoB overall adjusted to how much worse SoB fair in cost.)
Grey-Knights
Imperial Knights
Harlequins
Most of these armies didn't exist back then and were made in response to consumer demand(hey, where have I seen that before?) or just the GW studio getting a wild hair up their butt about anime or something. All of them were massive risks. Others, like Gene-stealer cults, dark eldar, and Slaanesh, actually did sell like doggak until GW put out some cool stuff to refresh the line(Slaanesh got the smallest number of new releases and the small jump. It's almost like there's a pattern their Ron) and they took off like wild-fire(Like plenty of people claim a certain army would)
Most of your list existed in 3rd edition and before (2nd). I won't go as far as 1st. But as far as it goes, yes there are people that say certain armies shouldn't exist, and i'm certainly one of them. But you're right - gw releases armies based on consumer demand. They have how many decades of figures telling them what the demand for sisters were. I find it interesting you included slaanesh on your list - it wasn't that long ago they released new daemonettes and chariots for slaanesh. To be honest, i'm not entirely sure what your list is about - you've listed the things that gw has released lately. Some of them were more popular than others. Where's the sisters bias here?
ERJAK wrote: SoB are the ONLY army in the game that get this kind of pushback when it comes to a new release. No other army gets the same type of Sales=Releases talk that SoB get. No one says 'it'd be stupid to release Slaanesh because the don't sell' even though by all rights they don't. No one says 'Oh, Orkz aren't getting new releases 'cause the line doesn't sell and doesn't really have much appeal' In fact, the only other faction that gets ANY complaints about getting new stuff(not 'aww I wanted stuff instead' but 'you shouldn't have gotten things') is Space marines and that's because they get TOO MUCH stuff. Even Inquisition doesn't face the same montras despite being in the exact same situation.
Look at all the complaining about Xenos armies we've been seeing lately, and apply this same logic. If Sisters aren't being made because there's no market for them and because they would sell poorly then it stands to reason that Xenos aren't being made because they sell poorly and there's no market for them.
...... But that's exactly what people say. Xenos armies aren't marines, so they get pushed back. They don't make the same profits, so they're sidelined. All things considered, it doesn't seem that far off. How is noting that a bias in any way? Honestly, i don't give a flying crap if sisters are released or not, but to say that there seems to be a reason they're not getting released isn't bias. I'm not sure what your obsession with slaanesh is, but i'm starting to warm to it. lol.
ERJAK wrote: I will say it again, if you honestly believe that Sisters are not seeing, and/or should not see a release because they don't sell well, that's fair so long as you attribute the same logic to the lack of Xenos and Slaanesh releases.
I just... I can't.... Wow. I read the forum periodically, and that's exactly what people say. Orks, necrons, tau, tyranids. I've been following the game since 1st edition. Things are a little different this edition, but overall it's the same old same old. The 'less popular' armies get the least attention, and/or the biggest price gouges. Ork artillery pieces? Like yeah, i think you're supporting a different argument and are not aware of it.
On a sidenote, i'm genuinely interested in your contention with slaanesh. How exactly are they getting treated worse than sisters yet getting more attention? Is this your local meta?
This, 100% this. All of it. Someone suggesting possible reasons for lack of sales is not "anti" anything. Sisters players seem to take things far too personally and it's tiresome.
This thread asks how someone would feel if Sisters were released next. Well as an Ork player who hasn't seen a release since 8th and who sees imperial and chaos releases left and right I would be pissed off.
With regards Slaanesh Sisters - to me a linked release seems possible only because both lines haven't been updated. To be honest the sisters should just be "chaos corrupted" and not linked to any god in terms of sculpt but again I could imagine a Slaanesh link in the narrative because of timing and the age of Slaanesh models.
Personally I find the whole "we are incorruptible" shtick boring and it takes the satire mentioned earlier out of the faction. I think it would be way better to have corrupted sisters;
1. It makes sense, they are only human and humans can fall.
2. It gives the faction more depth.
3. It gives the faction more "realism".
4. It's something different and new.
5. It gives chaos some proper female representation (not daemonettes).
6. It fleshes out the forces of chaos more.
7. It offers an alternative all female army to choose. There are people who wouldn't ever buy sisters because of them being imperium.
To be honest I think it's just as sexist to keep the female models only on the "goodies" team as it is to align them to Slaanesh. It reeks of inequality and that women aren't scary or powerful enough to be considered a threat.
Just my thoughts on it, I'm sure some of you will hate this. If you do please don't attack me and instead discuss my points.
Well as an Ork player who hasn't seen a release since 8th and who sees imperial and chaos releases left and right I would be pissed off.
Obviously Orks don't sell so they shouldn't waste resources on Orks otherwise GW would be throwing away money as you have said. I say this with a heavy dose of sarcasm.
To be honest I think it's just as sexist to keep the female models only on the "goodies" team as it is to align them to Slaanesh. It reeks of inequality and that women aren't scary or powerful enough to be considered a threat.
Having Sisters as loyal only has nothing to do with sexism. You could at best argue that it is a trope, but only if there existed no other female models that represented other alignments. Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if people would use plastic sisters to represent Chaos Legions to begin with(There is a growing demand for female Space Marines and a Sisters release would allow for a lot of conversion possibilities).You also ignore the fact that so far women have only had representation in more neutral to evil sided armies(on the alignment spectrum). If you are a woman and want to some representation you have what? Slaanesh(yay....)? Dark Eldar and a pithy in Craftworlds? I guess you could also argue for some models in the Tyranid line as they do have names like Harpy, Crone, and so on. I ignore the inquisition models since playing Inquisition as an army isn't really realistic. This while the boys all have endless stream of Space Marine armies to choose from(Ultramarine Wednesdays, Dark Angel Mondays).
hhhdan wrote: I'd prefer them releasing thousand sons first instead of Custodes and then releasing anything else
ohh you poor dear, you might have to wait a week
I'm gonna be honest, I was originally expecting Thousand Sons to be close to the end of the line, and I was okay with that. But now that I know that it's coming SOON every day without it hurts.
hhhdan wrote: I'd prefer them releasing thousand sons first instead of Custodes and then releasing anything else
ohh you poor dear, you might have to wait a week
I'm gonna be honest, I was originally expecting Thousand Sons to be close to the end of the line, and I was okay with that. But now that I know that it's coming SOON every day without it hurts.
I'm in the same boat for my custodes actually, I got talons of the emperor for christmas, and nearly started building my custodes when the announcement came.. Now I'm just sort of waiting
I know a lot of people are complaining about the Thousand Sons getting new units..but I kinda like it. I don't personally play the army but variety is good. As long as the units are viable it's pretty cool. However..I don't feel like Custodes even belong if they aren't going to get a decent release. I would like them to get rules for some of the FW models in addition to the general units. Sisters right now would be a rush. There's no point in releasing a codex AGAIN for an all metal army. This seems the year of updates and changes though. GW wants to push out all these codecies and have already said Sisters are getting one. They will NEED new models to make that happen and the current GW actually looks like it might make that happen.
BrianDavion wrote: IIRCGW has said FW wll be putting out 40k rules for all their Custodes stuff, so there IS that
To be honest I want that just so people can have an army that's more than 4 units. The special FW dreads are really nice. I feel like Custodes got ripped off with a generic as heck contemptor.
Eldarsif wrote: Obviously Orks don't sell so they shouldn't waste resources on Orks otherwise GW would be throwing away money as you have said. I say this with a heavy dose of sarcasm.
What is your argument here and in what possible way does it counter my point? Orks have a plastic range that has been updated on more than one occasion. They obviously don't sell as much as Space Marines or they'd have received the same level of investment. They obviously sell more than Sisters hence why they've been repeatedly updated. I don't know if you know you're doing it but you are proving my point.
Eldarsif wrote: Having Sisters as loyal only has nothing to do with sexism. You could at best argue that it is a trope, but only if there existed no other female models that represented other alignments. Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if people would use plastic sisters to represent Chaos Legions to begin with(There is a growing demand for female Space Marines and a Sisters release would allow for a lot of conversion possibilities).You also ignore the fact that so far women have only had representation in more neutral to evil sided armies(on the alignment spectrum). If you are a woman and want to some representation you have what? Slaanesh(yay....)? Dark Eldar and a pithy in Craftworlds? I guess you could also argue for some models in the Tyranid line as they do have names like Harpy, Crone, and so on. I ignore the inquisition models since playing Inquisition as an army isn't really realistic. This while the boys all have endless stream of Space Marine armies to choose from(Ultramarine Wednesdays, Dark Angel Mondays).
Assumptions about growing demand for female space marines aside, your statement "so far women have only had representation in more neutral to evil sided armies" is entirely incorrect unless we are counting SOB as a neutral - evil aligned army? They are the only army that is primarily female and they are also on team Imperium (who are the good guys, right?). There are other models in neutral (Eldar) and evil (Deldar) armies but they are not the majority of the army by any stretch. Don't you think it'd be cool to have an evil counterpart to Sisters? Even if they aren't corrupted Sisters as such but just an army of badass, evil women? It feels like basically there aren't really enough female models throughout the range, having more evil female models would help with this. The only evil primary army of females (I wouldn't call them women) is Slaanesh. daemons really. But this feeds in to my point with regards popularity, to a degree. I hate to say it but look at the last line of daemons to receive a major update. Don't you think it's a rather big coincidence that the last daemon army to receive a massive update including plastic GD is also the one that has a primarily female aesthetic? Almost like female models aren't all that popular?
BrianDavion wrote: IIRCGW has said FW wll be putting out 40k rules for all their Custodes stuff, so there IS that
To be honest I want that just so people can have an army that's more than 4 units. The special FW dreads are really nice. I feel like Custodes got ripped off with a generic as heck contemptor.
yeah not a big fan of MOST of the FW custodes range (I agree with those who say it feels to Tau like) but the dreadnoughts are amazing. I'll proably buy one of the fancy FW contemptors for my custodes
There's also female Tau, or are we forgetting that they prefer more gender neutral armor along with leaders like Shadowsun? Or Inquisitors like Grayfax (for as far as people call the Imperium "good" anyways)
Of course I play Slaanesh, our army is the step child of the Daemon Army right now that's for sure.
Essentially it's one of those statements they've made in this thread so far that's been pretty disingenuous.
I don't care much for SoB personally, it's essentially just another flavor of Space Marine with a few stat and unit changes but the same weaponry overall. Which is why I'd much prefer a bigger fleshed out Ecclesiarchy book that they are apart of. They don't have to lose any of their stuff, but adding more to it would be nice to give them a variety of tools that they could use alongside.
Sisters really feel like they were cast out of the same "trinity" mold that I felt when playing Grey Knights.
Sisters run with the boltgun, flamer, and melta.
Grey knights run a very similar profile of exceedingly restrictive options.
I think both armies have the "Well, we have these weapons, the only different in the units is how many of said weapons they can take."
It lends to very... blah... and is currently one of the only reasons sisters do well, but probably the core of the "we need new stuff" argument.
Dominion spam has been a thing for how long? Immolator spam has been a thing along with it?
I personally don't mind it... I think the way the units work is just different enough that they feel at least a little distinct... with the exception of Celestians. They got just raunchy bad in 8th. Gutted the only fake melee bunch the army had, I cannot even pretend to field a melee squad that'll make my opponent flinch enough to throw a few rounds at 'em (Repentia aside, but they have some problems of their own).
I think currently that a Ministorum immediately following the Daemons release (with all the new nurgle stuff coming in) and the Thousand Sons release, with more new stuff for them most likely, would probably be a misstep. Even Custodes are getting new models. It really reeks of the next few releases probably won't be getting anything but rules revisions.
Also, the timing just feels poor for it. Since last Summer I've been feeling that Sisters were going to be one of the last codexes released. They've never struck me as a largely represented faction, and the hope was that they would like to do something fancy with them, but that would mean they would likely premier the edition, or close out the initial rollouts. We're clearly past a premier, so here's hoping May has something nice in store for the army!
Honestly, I would have preferred a lot of these smaller cult-type factions of the Imperium get wrapped up into one codex that worked well with each other... so that maybe some unit depth would eek its way into all the armies, but soup is always an option!
An Actual Englishman wrote: "so far women have only had representation in more neutral to evil sided armies" is entirely incorrect unless we are counting SOB as a neutral - evil aligned army?
Of course they are evil. The Imperium is a horrible regime and the Sisters of Battle represent the worse part of it. They have more noble sides, yeah. The hospitalers, they represent the faith, the emphaty for imperial citizens, the hope etc... but they also represent the worse parts of the Imperium. The radicalism, the martirdom that is expected from everybody, self flagelation (Figuratively and Literally), religious fanatism, etc...
That dichotomy is why they are beautifull has a faction. They are THE imperium of Warhammer 40k. No other imperial faction represents as good the core of the Imperium.
And personally I'll love a Ministorium release (With SoB as the core of the faction). Plastic Sisters of Battle with new vehicles and units, Plastic Crusaders of Both Genders, Inquisitors, Flagelants, Penitent Engines, Priest, Militias... one can dream...
Almost like female models aren't all that popular?
Why then are third party manufacturers and other games making female models(I guess Raging Heroes is just a mirage)? Hell, even GW is getting on that boat with the latest lines. GW sees the changing tide while you remain oblivious to the evolution that is happening around you.
I think that one sentence I quoted kinda outed your agenda. You really do hate having women in your game don't you? Hate to break it to you, but we are already here and there are only going to be more of us as time passes.
Galas also gave an excellent answer why Sisters wouldn't be considered exactly good even though they have some good in them.
That comment is funny because Neave Blacktalon and Angharad Brightshield have "boob-plate", but it is done in a "ornamental" way, just like the male Stormcast have "pectoral-plate" and both of them have marked abs. Is fitting and respect the aesthetics of the faction.
Galas wrote: That comment is funny because Neave Blacktalon and Angharad Brightshield have "boob-plate", but it is done in a "ornamental" way, just like the male Stormcast have "pectoral-plate" and both of them have marked abs. Is fitting and respect the aesthetics of the faction.
When I hear boob plate I think of Sororitas or TGITG style individual breasts modeled into the armour, impractical and certainly uncomfortable if the wearer's bustling actually occupies that space.
With the female stormcasts it's more of a visible bust, still not ideal but certainly better than boob-plate. Personally I would have preferred both men and women occupying the same massive be-pectoraled armour the baseline stormcast wear.
But that's a whole other tangent.
It occurred to me earlier today that'd I'd probably prefer the Xenos races that didn't get anything in Chapter Approved get codexes first.
Galas wrote: That comment is funny because Neave Blacktalon and Angharad Brightshield have "boob-plate", but it is done in a "ornamental" way, just like the male Stormcast have "pectoral-plate" and both of them have marked abs. Is fitting and respect the aesthetics of the faction.
When I hear boob plate I think of Sororitas or TGITG style individual breasts modeled into the armour, impractical and certainly uncomfortable if the wearer's bustling actually occupies that space.
Which is why it most likely doesn't, unless everyone in the Adeptus Sororitas is endowed with G cup breasts. Its just ornamentation, and keep in mind this is the same organisation who thinks putting cathedrals on their ships and large Eagle sculptures on the macro cannon muzzle (which might get in the way of the projectile) is a good idea The IoM is not known to be overly practical. Which is why its such a fun setting.
That said, I don't think the IG need "boobplates." It doesn't really go with their overall aesthetic, which by Imperial standards tends to be more on the practical side. Its interesting to note, as least by my observations, that the higher up the proverbial imperial food chain the more extravagant and impractical the design. Which again, sort of ties with the Baroque / despot theme the IoM has going for it.
I find the argument "they weren't that popular 20 years ago", which as I remember isn't even true, a bit dubious.
Sisters would be fine. Okay if they were the ugliest miniatures GW had released in the last two years, and were utter garbage on the table, then maybe they would fail to sell. But that almost certainly wouldn't happen.
How would I feel? Not much really. Its not my model line. But the idea they are not more distinctive than another "Marines+1" release is bizarre.
Honestly, if they got more than just a codex released on the side like Thousand Sons is getting, and got models, I think I'd likely die from shock more than anything. As someone who has been playing Sisters since 5th I'm basically numb to the lack of new stuff, and even the new Celestine really didn't do much fo getting me hyped.
Now don't get me wrong, I love the model, but when everything else is basically 2nd edition era pewter (some of it was released in 3rd but I suspect was designed in 2nd) it's hard to feel like they're meant to be the same army.
I'm not really going to weigh in on this whole argument about Sisters popularity in the past versus potential in the present, but I will say that there is a lot of potential for the army going forward. GW has snuck in some fluff about Sisters of Silence basically masquerading as Sisters of Battle over the last four thousand years, so the two Sisters factions may be coming together (which would give the army known for hunting witches some actual buffs for hunting witches while at the same time giving the Sisters of Silence more options for dealing with stuff like hordes and armour that they don't handle so well on their own), and I'm okay with that since they are fairly similar in many respects and it's not like there aren't canon Sororitas orders that have vows of silence.
Then again, with modern fluff being the Sisters of Silence being unbanned from coming to Terra (and being recovered by the Custodes to ensure that they'd have their complimentary force of warp-neutralizing companions again) this may not become a thing and I'm equally okay with that.
Really all I want for Sisters at this point is to see some variation in how the army plays (fixing the more melee-centric units like Repentia and Celestians would be a good start) so that players have a reason to finally change their army lists, and plastics.
I mean, is the demand for Sisters now any less than the demand for us to get Primaris Marines before they were released?
Galas wrote: Of course they are evil. The Imperium is a horrible regime and the Sisters of Battle represent the worse part of it. They have more noble sides, yeah. The hospitalers, they represent the faith, the emphaty for imperial citizens, the hope etc... but they also represent the worse parts of the Imperium. The radicalism, the martirdom that is expected from everybody, self flagelation (Figuratively and Literally), religious fanatism, etc...
That dichotomy is why they are beautifull has a faction. They are THE imperium of Warhammer 40k. No other imperial faction represents as good the core of the Imperium.
Jesus Christ this is some pedantry. It's pretty obvious that GW believes WE think the Imperium are more morally just than say, Tyranids, Daemons and Orks? Yes yes we all know that no force in 40k is "good". Grim dark and all that. But I'd say it's pretty damn clear that Imperium are considered the heroes of the game.
Huh I could be wrong I guess. It depends how big the market is for these figures. I mean $600 - $800k might be a drop in the ocean for all we know (or are you going to show me the entire spend on gaming figurines for all companies aggregated?). I certainly think this lends credence to the theory that there's a market there now.
Eldarsif wrote: Why then are third party manufacturers and other games making female models(I guess Raging Heroes is just a mirage)? Hell, even GW is getting on that boat with the latest lines. GW sees the changing tide while you remain oblivious to the evolution that is happening around you.
And how much money do these companies make? Do they only sell female models? Do you have the breakdowns of how many models they sell? No? Guess it means sweet FA then. I'm not oblivious to any evolution, I just disagree with your stance that female models are super popular among gamers now.
Where on earth did you get the idea that I have any sort of agenda? Can you actually provide some proof of this or do you just like throwing out strawman arguments? I have repeatedly stated that the market might be different now. I have said what I think based on the evidence I have to hand.
And what is your pic supposed to prove? My point? That massive 21 likes that the post managed to garner. How incredibly important this issue is to so many people. Obviously.
I would love to see SoB release ahead of Orks and here is why - orks have an extensive plastic range while SoB do not and deserve to have it just as much as Orks.
Just a quick reminder that Rule Number One here is Be Polite. It's just toy soldiers, after all. Thanks!
Automatically Appended Next Post: As to the topic:
I have been waiting for plastic Sisters for so long. And now that GW has demonstrated, with Celestine and the Geminae, that they can do absolutely beautiful plastic Sisters, I want them even more. So I would be ecstatic if the next dex was Adepta Sororitas.
That said, I'm not especially cross about a Custodes dex coming out (please see my avatar). I'd be pretty pissed about a Sisters of Silence dex, however.
Almost like female models aren't all that popular?
Why then are third party manufacturers and other games making female models(I guess Raging Heroes is just a mirage)? Hell, even GW is getting on that boat with the latest lines. GW sees the changing tide while you remain oblivious to the evolution that is happening around you.
I think that one sentence I quoted kinda outed your agenda. You really do hate having women in your game don't you? Hate to break it to you, but we are already here and there are only going to be more of us as time passes.
Agenda, hating women.. Goodness it's like you are trying to build an excellent strawman but you need to do some more... You've managed to bring up several disingenuous statements about the state of female models in 40k thus far.
Seriously though.. SoB have a very loud fanbase, but I don't know how many translate to sales.
Though I'd be curious to see how many people come in just because "New Army Aesthetic" that isn't made of metal.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Agenda, hating women.. Goodness it's like you are trying to build an excellent strawman but you need to do some more... You've managed to bring up several disingenuous statements about the state of female models in 40k thus far.
Seriously though.. SoB have a very loud fanbase, but I don't know how many translate to sales.
Though I'd be curious to see how many people come in just because "New Army Aesthetic" that isn't made of metal.
Thanks for this. I feel like this is how it always goes with Sisters' fans. If you dare disagree that they aren't popular you clearly "hate women" or "hate seeing women in the game". What a load of rubbish.
@Manchu mod - I don't think it's polite for people to strawman others. Or is that OK? It doesn't matter if I just make up what people think because it suits my slowed rhetoric?
Amishprn86 wrote: If a SoS codex comes out and not a SOB one, i'm going to raise hell to GW.
According to the Custodes information, they're not really planning on doing Sisters of Silence until after all the other armies are updated. Now if that means Sisters of Battle get a release or not is unsure because GW does seem to forget that they exist sometimes.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Agenda, hating women.. Goodness it's like you are trying to build an excellent strawman but you need to do some more... You've managed to bring up several disingenuous statements about the state of female models in 40k thus far.
Seriously though.. SoB have a very loud fanbase, but I don't know how many translate to sales.
Though I'd be curious to see how many people come in just because "New Army Aesthetic" that isn't made of metal.
Thanks for this. I feel like this is how it always goes with Sisters' fans. If you dare disagree that they aren't popular you clearly "hate women" or "hate seeing women in the game". What a load of rubbish.
@Manchu mod - I don't think it's polite for people to strawman others. Or is that OK? It doesn't matter if I just make up what people think because it suits my slowed rhetoric?
Please don't lump all Sisters players under a single banner of accusations and strawmanning. I definitely disagree with some of your claims about GW, but then again I'm more inclined to believe that the studio statements about not having the technology to do Sisters properly was a bigger factor than how well they sold in 2nd edition. Now obviously that has changed with how good the current model kits are, but I'd still argue that with a 3 or so lead time on any project, just because we're seeing that Sisters can be done in plastic doesn't mean anything. I mean Celestine being plastic may have just been testing how to approach the problem and make it work while the army model overhaul being something that was started later and may not even be ready.
That aside, the "why" really isn't that important anymore since any reasons we could present are contradicted by more niche factions seeing support in more recent years, and model quality reaching a level where highly detailed models that would be previously impossible for GW to produce exist now.
Even if you don't like the lore of Sisters I feel they add something to the game that no other faction currently does: an elite horde. 3+ saves on a large number of relatively weaker models is something you don't see as a faction focus for any other army, making Sisters the glass cannon army. They can dish out damage, but aren't great at tanking it due to needing to roll saves so much more often than other power armour factions. Speaking as someone who plays with them that means they don't play like Guard (less bodies, shorter range options), nor do they play like Marines (weaker in melee, tank less effectively) making them different to play against despite sharing statline qualities with both of those armies.
So for the sake of diversity on the table I'd argue that Sisters belong, not so we can have another Imperial army (albiet one you should see just about as often as Guard since every planet outside of the Chapter Homeworlds of most chapters, have at least some Sisters force on it that bolsters the PDF and fights with the Guard), but rather because it brings a playstyle that is different than any other army (the closest direct match is Dark Eldar who are faster and thus more fragile while Sisters are slower and rely on their better saves to allow them to get closer to the opponent in hopes of engaging them).
SeanDrake wrote: Hmmm I would mostly be shocked if SoB got a release.
I mean it was SoB sales that got inquisition canned and caused a decade delay in DW being released.
Squats had better sales figures than sisters and look how that turned out.
In fact we will likely see a Squat army before Sisters.
Inquisition was in third edition when plastics were becoming more common, but with an all metal core Sisters weren't going to be as attractive as a purchase. Heck, when I first started in third I was warned away from Sisters at my FLGS just because they're all metal. Basically, they weren't well received at the time because they were doubling down on a thing that wasn't exactly popular with players when compared to the easier to build plastic kits which were less likely to need pinning (unless they were plastic/metal hybrid kits) and wouldn't chip from being looked at too closely.
Squats had better sales than a lot of things but the studio admitted they basically had a knee jerk reaction to the fact that they couldn't make a goofy concept of biker Dwarves in space fit the more serious tone they were aiming for at the launch of 2nd edition. Basically writer's block killed the Squats while Sisters have been seeing fluff stuff since their launch, albeit very slowly, so there is definitely more ideas going on for where to take Sisters than where to take Squats.
Manchu wrote: Just a quick reminder that Rule Number One here is Be Polite. It's just toy soldiers, after all. Thanks!
Automatically Appended Next Post: As to the topic:
I have been waiting for plastic Sisters for so long. And now that GW has demonstrated, with Celestine and the Geminae, that they can do absolutely beautiful plastic Sisters, I want them even more. So I would be ecstatic if the next dex was Adepta Sororitas.
That said, I'm not especially cross about a Custodes dex coming out (please see my avatar). I'd be pretty pissed about a Sisters of Silence dex, however.
I 100% agree with this. Celestine, Gemini, Greyfax, Verydian, it's like they know what to do but are caught up in committee with how to do the whole shebang.
Amishprn86 wrote: If a SoS codex comes out and not a SOB one, i'm going to raise hell to GW.
My reaction to SoS getting plastic figures is a matter of record. I guess I am just hoping SoS are in the Custodes dex.
According to the information we have from the Studio Open, SoS are not in the Custodes book. Now if this means the Studio is going to combine the Sisters factions to go with the fluff that some SoB orders are actually SoS orders masquerading as nuns, or that they're getting their own book later is unclear, but we have gotten very clear information that the Custodes are being released alone for their book.
Racerguy180 wrote: but are caught up in committee with how to do the whole shebang
The traditional* explanation (excuse) is they are having trouble squaring cloth drapery with multipose arms.
Over the years, I have come up with my own theory: GW want SoB fans to get the real "Faith" experience. Basically, when plastic SoB do arrive (the day after forever from now) we'll feel like it's a miracle.
*"Traditional" seems like the correct term, given how long this has been the explanation (excuse).
ClockworkZion wrote: go with the fluff that some SoB orders are actually SoS orders masquerading as nuns
Seriously f- f- f -f- feth that noise.
My concern is, they put out a SoS dex and then conclude internally that SoB no longer have a place on the shelf because it will be too confusing to have SoS and SoB (despite the WH Store being, essentially, a kind of Space Marine Baskin Robbins).
Racerguy180 wrote: but are caught up in committee with how to do the whole shebang
The traditional* explanation (excuse) is they are having trouble squaring cloth drapery with multipose arms.
Over the years, I have come up with my own theory: GW want SoB fans to get the real "Faith" experience. Basically, when plastic SoB do arrives (the day after forever from now) we'll feel like it's a miracle.
*"Traditional" seems like the correct term, given how long this has been the explanation (excuse).
ClockworkZion wrote: go with the fluff that some SoB orders are actually SoS orders masquerading as nuns
Seriously f- f- f -f- feth that noise.
SoS where basically banned from Terra during the whole Beast saga and nearly wiped out, the splintered remains survived in hiding until M36 where they hid themselves under the Sisters (since they're women in power armour hunting witches and some SoB orders have taken vows of silence this is actually legitimately clever), while others worked under the Inquisition. Recently they were being brought back to Terra secretly by the Custodes, and the High Lords of Terra finally took a stick out of their backside (likely due to Guilliman) and rescinded their decree that the SoS where not allowed to return to Terra, basically justifying the Custodes' actions.
Basically they got the "they've always been there in the background, even if the faction was considered dead and lost a long time ago!" treatment so GW could justify bringing them into the present. Where this will take them is basically unknown but let's be honest, blending SoS and SoB basically creates a force that compliments the other half's short comings (good melee, and dedicated firepower to deal with hordes and tanks), so I'm not ruling it out as a possible cop out by GW for them to not have to invent new forces for both factions that don't step on each other's toes.
All we've heard so far from the Studio is that "Sisters" weren't likely to see a release until sometime after the other codexes were done. This is likely SoS, but known GW they could be being cheeky and meaning both factions of Sisters.
FIRM FIRM FIRM "no thanks" to the absurd notion of combining Sisters of Silence with Adepta Sororitas. No one would ever think it made sense to lump Custodes in the Vanilla Astartes book. Just because both factions are girls in armor - that's a maddeningly stupid rationale, especially - again - given that at any given time there are 5-6 distinct astartes books.
Another fear of mine: plastic Sisters come out as part of another freakshow "Witch Hunters" dex (featuring, you guessed it, Sisters of Silence). Note that currently Sisters of Silence have their own faction page on GW's online store whereas Sororitas are filed under "Adeptus Ministorum." Very unsettling development.
I really would prefer Adeptus Ministorum codex over Adeptus Sororitas codex, providing there were decent amount of choice to make pure Sisters army if one so desired.
There could be all sorts of cool war altars, flagellants and space cardinals with huge silly hats.
If Chapter Approved is any indication the faction will be Sororitas, not Ministorum. The Ministorum stuff may be included in the Sisters dex as auxiliaries you can take without breaking faction benefits like Fallen in the CSM codex.
Manchu wrote:FIRM FIRM FIRM "no thanks" to the absurd notion of combining Sisters of Silence with Adepta Sororitas. No one would ever think it made sense to lump Custodes in the Vanilla Astartes book. Just because both factions are girls in armor - that's a maddeningly stupid rationale, especially - again - given that at any given time there are 5-6 distinct astartes books.
Another fear of mine: plastic Sisters come out as part of another freakshow "Witch Hunters" dex (featuring, you guessed it, Sisters of Silence). Note that currently Sisters of Silence have their own faction page on GW's online store whereas Sororitas are filed under "Adeptus Ministorum." Very unsettling development.
Oh I agree, that mashing them together would be fairly silly, I'm just saying I wouldn't put it past GW.
Crimson wrote:I really would prefer Adeptus Ministorum codex over Adeptus Sororitas codex, providing there were decent amount of choice to make pure Sisters army if one so desired.
There could be all sorts of cool war altars, flagellants and space cardinals with huge silly hats.
"Adeptus Ministorum" will likely be how they label the Sisters going forward to prevent codex confusion I'd bet. Basically it'd be like Dark Eldar where it's two subfactions in a single book, one of which would be the more cultist/penitent units with priests, arco-flagellants, penitent engines, cult assassins, and crusaders while the other army would be the Sororitas proper.
Manchu wrote: FIRM FIRM FIRM "no thanks" to the absurd notion of combining Sisters of Silence with Adepta Sororitas. No one would ever think it made sense to lump Custodes in the Vanilla Astartes book. Just because both factions are girls in armor - that's a maddeningly stupid rationale, especially - again - given that at any given time there are 5-6 distinct astartes books.
Another fear of mine: plastic Sisters come out as part of another freakshow "Witch Hunters" dex (featuring, you guessed it, Sisters of Silence). Note that currently Sisters of Silence have their own faction page on GW's online store whereas Sororitas are filed under "Adeptus Ministorum." Very unsettling development.
Thanks. Somebody that at last answer that nonsense idea about combining then both just because they are Sisters. Is just so... urgh. (And yes, I like for chaos legions and space marine chapters to have their own codex), but the idea of mixing SoS and SoB is even worse because you aren't talking about different Sororitas Orders having different Codex. SoS and SoB have 0 to do from gameplay and background.
Or Sororitas pauper? GW shouldn't let non-SoB action items eat into the SoB budget. It's bad enough that Sisters of Silence have plastic models already. I mean, I'm all for new arco-flaggelants. Down the line. After plastic Soroitas and some new plastic Sororitas units to round them out as an army.
"Over the years, I have come up with my own theory: GW want SoB fans to get the real "Faith" experience. Basically, when plastic SoB do arrives (the day after forever from now) we'll feel like it's a miracle."
I have said this a hundred times.
The supposed SoB fan base that will "plastic SoB so hard" are constantly demonstrating their lack of true faith and devotion. While the SoB player base allows this to continue, and while they themselves fall prey to this weakness, they will be forced to endure yet another year in pewter penence. There is only one way forward, to embrace the perfection that is a seamlessly converted pewter Sister, embrace that in their creation the Sisters of Battle were given all that they would ever need to Purge the Alien, Kill the Mutant, and Burn the Heretic! The Emperor protects!
Or Sororitas pauper? GW shouldn't let non-SoB action items eat into the SoB budget. It's bad enough that Sisters of Silence have plastic models already. I'm mean, I'm all for new arco-flaggelants. Down the line. After plastic Soroitas and some new plastic Sororitas units to round them out as an army.
Oh I didn't mean all at once but rather but as an eventual release. Perhaps in two parts like they did with the Mechanicus, only don't make it two different books.
Nicking this from 1d4chan since it's a decent summary of the lore for SoS so far:
They refused to recognize the Imperium in its political form as of M32, seeing it as a corrupted simulacrum of what the Emperor actually intended, but they still acknowledge the Emperor as the focus of their loyalty. Thus, when their services are required again in the War of The Beast, they accept the calling and return to Terra, where they are granted an audience with the Emperor in his sanctum on the throne, a privilege that not even the High Lords are afforded. Just how exactly that would've worked is a mystery, given how the Emperor can presumably only communicate psychically at this point, which probably wouldn't work at all on a group of nulls. The Beast Arises series ends with the Sisters of Silence being wiped out while killing the Beast, meaning that (if we are interpreting correctly the hints of some supplements) it is possible the Order was reformed with entirely new members and possibly entirely new beliefs and/or traditions.
The Gathering Storm, book 3, indicates that the Sisters of Silence were officially disbanded upon the conclusion of the Age of Apostasy in M36 (perhaps coinciding with the formation of the Sororitas) but continued to exist through secretive enclaves throughout the Imperium right up to M41. Hidden away with several orders being scattered through the stars concealed in "Convents" that made them looks like Sisters of Battle to outside observers, even taking upon themselves the role of Witch-Seeker without any official sanction to do so. Some were also maintained on the Black Ships whilst others were recruited by Inquisitors who knew their value, but for all intents and purposes they did not exist as an organisation; this conveniently explains how the Sisterhood being "wiped out" on Ullanor/Armageddon during the War for the Beast wouldn't have rendered them completely extinct, since they had always been there in one form or another.
Basically, as of Gathering Storm 3, the two Sisters armies are no longer completely disconnected, hence my concern of a roll up for the sake of laziness instead of approaching it more like how Marines and Grey Knights were approached: generalists versus specialists given seperate books despite similar stats and wargear.
Manchu wrote: Combining SoS with Adeptus Sororitas in Codex: Girls makes me feel physically ill.
If you get ill enough I hear you turn into a Plague Marine.
Seriously though, I wouldn't exactly be excited by it either. Sisters of Silence are pretty anti-religious and hold the Emperor as their only true leader, making them fall lockstep with the Sororitas under the church would be pretty painful on the whiplash scale.
I'm not sure how they're going to flesh out the SoS going forward, but since the organization now has little it has to share with the Heresy one (due to being mostly dead twice) they could go a lot of different directions.
Basically I hope they basically are the "anti-Sisters" in approach. Instead of a focus on melta and flamers perhaps they focus on plasma and grav to punch through the armour of traitor Marines. Instead of faith abilities they rely on static aura bonuses Marine style. Instead of being a short ranged shooting army, make them a hybrid of long range shooting and strong melee.
In otherwords, let them be everything the Sisters of Battle aren't. This will ensure the flavors of the two armies are distinct and that the way they build aren't just copy pastas of each other.
Plus, for the nutters who want to mix the two armies (say to represent one of those SoS style convents) they don't just have a bunch of redundant choices.
From a lore standpoint I can get why you guys are saying the two being combined is absolutely terrible.
However on the table? Mini rules and such..I feel like it would actually mesh pretty well. Especially if the FW stuff gets brought over for them too. (Dual pistol girls might not be the strongest thing ever but damn do the models look good)
But squads who can shut down psykers from harming Sisters just sort of boosts their potential. Adding to that, groups of melee combatants that have an actual save but a weaker sword sound useful as well.
Perhaps a bit of redundancy in loadout options depending on what you take, but it's something different without having to rely on Inquisition units. If they aren't being squished together with them then other female power armor units would still look nice on the table.
ClockworkZion wrote: If you get ill enough I hear you turn into a Plague Marine.
Hey at least they have their own dex and an entire plastic army.
ClockworkZion wrote: In otherwords, let them be everything the Sisters of Battle aren't.
I see where you are coming from but I also see some problems with this. Generally, focusing on making the Null Maidens "what Sororitas aren't" is another way of saying "narrowing down what Sororitas can be." If you have SoS charging in with huge swords, where does that leave Repentia? The way I see it, Sororitas should be the first priority and Sisters of Silence can have whatever's left over.
mmzero252 wrote: From a lore standpoint I can get why you guys are saying the two being combined is absolutely terrible.
However on the table? Mini rules and such..I feel like it would actually mesh pretty well. Especially if the FW stuff gets brought over for them too. (Dual pistol girls might not be the strongest thing ever but damn do the models look good)
But squads who can shut down psykers from harming Sisters just sort of boosts their potential. Adding to that, groups of melee combatants that have an actual save but a weaker sword sound useful as well.
Perhaps a bit of redundancy in loadout options depending on what you take, but it's something different without having to rely on Inquisition units. If they aren't being squished together with them then other female power armor units would still look nice on the table.
On the table they definitely would blend beautifully (especially if you're building some kind of Ordo Hereticus Witch Hunter force) but lore wise it's a mess I'm afraid won't be handled well.
Then again in a game with Primaris Marines and Primarchs now, who knows what'll happen?
Or Sororitas pauper? GW shouldn't let non-SoB action items eat into the SoB budget. It's bad enough that Sisters of Silence have plastic models already. I mean, I'm all for new arco-flaggelants. Down the line. After plastic Soroitas and some new plastic Sororitas units to round them out as an army.
Arco-flagellants would be a fairly easy dual-kit with repentia if they didn't want to do repentia with two different weapon options.
That or DCA, if the will were there. Share the torsos and just include two sets of heads and arms.
No but seriously...can we get Repentia with dual hand flamer options, GW?
That image is great and they would be scary. (Also I realize they are bolt pistols, but that looks like fire and not smoke. Or maybe they ARE supposed to be hand flamers and the artist doesn't know they don't look like that)
Just give them a whole list of dual pistol weapons (it's not like GW hasn't made arm and barrel sections separate so we can fit blt, melt and flamer pistol designs all in the same kit) as an option so we can decide if we want them to be choppy, shooty, or both.
Manchu wrote: FIRM FIRM FIRM "no thanks" to the absurd notion of combining Sisters of Silence with Adepta Sororitas. No one would ever think it made sense to lump Custodes in the Vanilla Astartes book. Just because both factions are girls in armor - that's a maddeningly stupid rationale, especially - again - given that at any given time there are 5-6 distinct astartes books.
Another fear of mine: plastic Sisters come out as part of another freakshow "Witch Hunters" dex (featuring, you guessed it, Sisters of Silence). Note that currently Sisters of Silence have their own faction page on GW's online store whereas Sororitas are filed under "Adeptus Ministorum." Very unsettling development.
It's more that it's hard not to look at SoS and see the weird overlap they've created even down to wargear selection. Bolters and flamers and a unit with two handed swords. It's like they thought "what are some good weapons for an anti psyker unit" and immediately thought of SoB, so they started giving SoS the same wargear.
It's weird and bodes poorly imo, I have a nasty feeling SoS won't be getting merged with SoB, but will be taking their niche mechanically and limelight as well.
Making Sisters of Silence a full army would be bizarre. They're too focused on anti-psyker to be reasonable, it's to an even greater extent than Grey Knights are with daemons. If SoS were strong enough to compete with non-psyker armies then a psyker army might as well just pack up their toys and go home.
Personally I'd rather they be squatted alongside the other Imperial auxiliaries that take up more ink than they're worth (looking at you, assassins). Sisters of Battle are the real, reasonable army.
Arachnofiend wrote: Making Sisters of Silence a full army would be bizarre. They're too focused on anti-psyker to be reasonable, it's to an even greater extent than Grey Knights are with daemons. If SoS were strong enough to compete with non-psyker armies then a psyker army might as well just pack up their toys and go home.
Personally I'd rather they be squatted alongside the other Imperial auxiliaries that take up more ink than they're worth (looking at you, assassins). Sisters of Battle are the real, reasonable army.
At least there are Psykers in more than half of the armies you normally see on the table. Not that many armies have daemons.
Right after sons, which are after the model releases of daemons and custodes? Nope.
GW model production is too limited at the moment. They need space for a big model release more than they need a rushed codex. No need models yet again would be a major strike against the 'new' GW.
Voss wrote: Right after sons, which are after the model releases of daemons and custodes? Nope.
GW model production is too limited at the moment. They need space for a big model release more than they need a rushed codex. No need models yet again would be a major strike against the 'new' GW.
Definitely agree. If it wasn't for FW we likely wouldn't be seeing Custodes right now, but instead be seeing something else that wasn't getting any/very many models added to it.
All that love is why we're saying that there needs to be a bit of a buffer before we see another large release. Three kits for Custodes and rules from FW is about right to give the army a sizable update without a massive investment and to let some wallets rest before the next big release. Players are likely to spend more with a little space between bigger releases as our finances have time to recover.
They can only do so many armies real justice plus DG and Nurgle are deserving. It so easy for you to say they should spread it around more. Look it all the new Custodes.
Arachnofiend wrote: Making Sisters of Silence a full army would be bizarre. They're too focused on anti-psyker to be reasonable, it's to an even greater extent than Grey Knights are with daemons. If SoS were strong enough to compete with non-psyker armies then a psyker army might as well just pack up their toys and go home.
Personally I'd rather they be squatted alongside the other Imperial auxiliaries that take up more ink than they're worth (looking at you, assassins). Sisters of Battle are the real, reasonable army.
Note that I'm less arguing that it is a good idea, and more worried GW thinks it is a good idea. They've been doing well lately but they aren't perfect.
Arachnofiend wrote: Making Sisters of Silence a full army would be bizarre. They're too focused on anti-psyker to be reasonable, it's to an even greater extent than Grey Knights are with daemons. If SoS were strong enough to compete with non-psyker armies then a psyker army might as well just pack up their toys and go home.
Personally I'd rather they be squatted alongside the other Imperial auxiliaries that take up more ink than they're worth (looking at you, assassins). Sisters of Battle are the real, reasonable army.
Note that I'm less arguing that it is a good idea, and more worried GW thinks it is a good idea. They've been doing well lately but they aren't perfect.
They've been making a lot of money lately. Doing 'well' is both subjective and debatable.
I think a Sisters of SIlence Army is now only a matter of time.
Partly because its an easy "mini release" to do.
Have one more unit type (I don't know - Sister Terminators, Sister Jet Bikes, Totally not Seraphim), a vehicle (two version plastic Kharon Pattern Acquisitor?), and a character clampack.
Done. Easy release, not much development time.
Not sure it would sell - but then I wasn't convinced Custodes were flying off Forgeworld's shelves. I am sure if the models look good and work on the table they will be fine.
Primark G wrote: I know a lot of people feel let down that the next codex to release is not a xenos race - how would you feel if Battle Sisters were to follow after Thousand Sons? Who really knows? I am excited about the Custodes codex but know that a lot of players want to see new xenos codices.
I'd be happy for the long suffering Sisters players. After that I'd be on the xenos bandwagon.
Flipping back to Sisters of Silence/Sisters of Battle, after reading Watchers of the Throne last night instead of sleeping I can say I don't expect a roll up of the two armies.
Basically the Sisters of Silence (who weren't on Black Ships or under the Inquisition) pretended to be Sisters of Battle convents but that's basically it. The bottom levels where all Sisters of Silence organizational focused and there really isn't any sign of there being any faith their with the Sister of Silence character mentioning that she can't see the Emperor as anything other than a man due to her nature.
Basically when you're separate from the reality others experience it's hard to be religious. This is a sentiment I'd expect to carry over across the board to other Sisters of Silence.
They could easily double up a Xenos release in the same month as Sisters by doing something like Dark Eldar or Tau who don't need new models right now (though I could see a clamshell character slip in anyways).
ClockworkZion wrote: Flipping back to Sisters of Silence/Sisters of Battle, after reading Watchers of the Throne last night instead of sleeping I can say I don't expect a roll up of the two armies.
Basically the Sisters of Silence (who weren't on Black Ships or under the Inquisition) pretended to be Sisters of Battle convents but that's basically it. The bottom levels where all Sisters of Silence organizational focused and there really isn't any sign of there being any faith their with the Sister of Silence character mentioning that she can't see the Emperor as anything other than a man due to her nature.
Basically when you're separate from the reality others experience it's hard to be religious. This is a sentiment I'd expect to carry over across the board to other Sisters of Silence.
if they rlled up the two armies it would IMHO be only if they returned to "codex witch hunters" in which case sisters of silence as an elite choice to operate along side sisters of battle might be a option, the only reason I wonder if SoS might be folded in with someone else is right now they are elites and not troops
SilverAlien wrote: I'm amused by the suggestion that SoB aren't just another minor variation on marines gameplay wise yet custodes are.
Rumor has it that when SoB were pitched way back when, the corporate exchange went like this.
Chairman 1:We need a new idea for a marines sub-faction to sell minis
Chairmen 2: How about marines, BUT WITH 2 X CHROMOSOMES!!!!
Chairman 1: Genius.
And to answer the OP. If the next codex were SoB, then the entire fanbase of SoB would die of shock, thus not being able to spend money they saved for such an event, leading to GW shelving SoB for another 20 years.
SilverAlien wrote: I'm amused by the suggestion that SoB aren't just another minor variation on marines gameplay wise yet custodes are.
Rumor has it that when SoB were pitched way back when, the corporate exchange went like this.
Chairman 1:We need a new idea for a marines sub-faction to sell minis
Chairmen 2: How about marines, BUT WITH 2 X CHROMOSOMES!!!!
Chairman 1: Genius.
And to answer the OP. If the next codex were SoB, then the entire fanbase of SoB would die of shock, thus not being able to spend money they saved for such an event, leading to GW shelving SoB for another 20 years.
It's interesting, the number of people here who have clearly never played with OR against SoB, especially in 8th. Sisters play closer to Harlequins than marines. Marines are a static gunline that occasionally gets delusions of granduer and goes in for the slap fight. Sisters, on the other hand, are a shotgun. We have jack-feth-all in the way of long range options so our best bet is to get in close and blast you with as much melta as you can fit into 2000pts.
And yeah, we'd probably all die of shock, but I've planned for that. My will states that all of my money should be used to purchase SoB for the good of future generations after the cardiac arrest takes me.
ClockworkZion wrote: Flipping back to Sisters of Silence/Sisters of Battle, after reading Watchers of the Throne last night instead of sleeping I can say I don't expect a roll up of the two armies.
Basically the Sisters of Silence (who weren't on Black Ships or under the Inquisition) pretended to be Sisters of Battle convents but that's basically it. The bottom levels where all Sisters of Silence organizational focused and there really isn't any sign of there being any faith their with the Sister of Silence character mentioning that she can't see the Emperor as anything other than a man due to her nature.
Basically when you're separate from the reality others experience it's hard to be religious. This is a sentiment I'd expect to carry over across the board to other Sisters of Silence.
if they rlled up the two armies it would IMHO be only if they returned to "codex witch hunters" in which case sisters of silence as an elite choice to operate along side sisters of battle might be a option, the only reason I wonder if SoS might be folded in with someone else is right now they are elites and not troops
I don't really like SoS models (goddamn TOPKNOTS) but I could see them being fluffed as joining the sororitas. I mean the main job of both factions is being anti-psyker so it makes sense if you think of it that way. Guilliman is all "hey you female anti-psykers, support this other group of women we have that super hates psykers."
ClockworkZion wrote: Flipping back to Sisters of Silence/Sisters of Battle, after reading Watchers of the Throne last night instead of sleeping I can say I don't expect a roll up of the two armies.
Basically the Sisters of Silence (who weren't on Black Ships or under the Inquisition) pretended to be Sisters of Battle convents but that's basically it. The bottom levels where all Sisters of Silence organizational focused and there really isn't any sign of there being any faith their with the Sister of Silence character mentioning that she can't see the Emperor as anything other than a man due to her nature.
Basically when you're separate from the reality others experience it's hard to be religious. This is a sentiment I'd expect to carry over across the board to other Sisters of Silence.
if they rlled up the two armies it would IMHO be only if they returned to "codex witch hunters" in which case sisters of silence as an elite choice to operate along side sisters of battle might be a option, the only reason I wonder if SoS might be folded in with someone else is right now they are elites and not troops
I don't really like SoS models (goddamn TOPKNOTS) but I could see them being fluffed as joining the sororitas. I mean the main job of both factions is being anti-psyker so it makes sense if you think of it that way. Guilliman is all "hey you female anti-psykers, support this other group of women we have that super hates psykers."
I know right? It seems to be a pretty logical move. Both their fields overlap, so the best course of action, in lore, would be to merge the two into a single organisation to cut down on bureaucracy. Then again, they are under the authority of two different imperial branches, the navigators (SoS) and the church (SoB). Not sure how merging them into a single group would reflect that. Maybe have the group led by representatives from this organisations, or the inquisition? Not sure.
SilverAlien wrote: I'm amused by the suggestion that SoB aren't just another minor variation on marines gameplay wise yet custodes are.
Rumor has it that when SoB were pitched way back when, the corporate exchange went like this.
Chairman 1:We need a new idea for a marines sub-faction to sell minis
Chairmen 2: How about marines, BUT WITH 2 X CHROMOSOMES!!!!
Chairman 1: Genius.
And to answer the OP. If the next codex were SoB, then the entire fanbase of SoB would die of shock, thus not being able to spend money they saved for such an event, leading to GW shelving SoB for another 20 years.
It's interesting, the number of people here who have clearly never played with OR against SoB, especially in 8th. Sisters play closer to Harlequins than marines. Marines are a static gunline that occasionally gets delusions of granduer and goes in for the slap fight. Sisters, on the other hand, are a shotgun. We have jack-feth-all in the way of long range options so our best bet is to get in close and blast you with as much melta as you can fit into 2000pts.
And yeah, we'd probably all die of shock, but I've planned for that. My will states that all of my money should be used to purchase SoB for the good of future generations after the cardiac arrest takes me.
Yeah, its crazy how little people know what they do, just had a game with them and when i Scouted 20 Melta guns in Basically OPen top Rhinos, move Celstine 24" and Seraphim that far to hit him with 24 meltas, 6 HF's and a large amount of Bloters with 3 Meless... he was shocked and said they are broken.. I went against a SM player. The worst part is, i was using Penitent Engine and a large unit of Arco-flagellents instead of 2 more units of Doms in Repressors or Rets with HB's lol. Imagine if i took the other units.
I always say they are like DE, except without the Overcosts to everything b.c DE for some reason GW wants them to be BDSM not just in fluff but for the player too.
ClockworkZion wrote: Flipping back to Sisters of Silence/Sisters of Battle, after reading Watchers of the Throne last night instead of sleeping I can say I don't expect a roll up of the two armies.
Basically the Sisters of Silence (who weren't on Black Ships or under the Inquisition) pretended to be Sisters of Battle convents but that's basically it. The bottom levels where all Sisters of Silence organizational focused and there really isn't any sign of there being any faith their with the Sister of Silence character mentioning that she can't see the Emperor as anything other than a man due to her nature.
Basically when you're separate from the reality others experience it's hard to be religious. This is a sentiment I'd expect to carry over across the board to other Sisters of Silence.
if they rlled up the two armies it would IMHO be only if they returned to "codex witch hunters" in which case sisters of silence as an elite choice to operate along side sisters of battle might be a option, the only reason I wonder if SoS might be folded in with someone else is right now they are elites and not troops
I don't really like SoS models (goddamn TOPKNOTS) but I could see them being fluffed as joining the sororitas. I mean the main job of both factions is being anti-psyker so it makes sense if you think of it that way. Guilliman is all "hey you female anti-psykers, support this other group of women we have that super hates psykers."
I know right? It seems to be a pretty logical move. Both their fields overlap, so the best course of action, in lore, would be to merge the two into a single organisation to cut down on bureaucracy.
Then again, they are under the authority of two different imperial branches, the navigators (SoS) and the church (SoB). Not sure how merging them into a single group would reflect that. Maybe have the group led by representatives from this organisations, or the inquisition? Not sure.
Are the Sisters of Silence still under the Black Ships / Navigators or reporting more directly to RG now? Will have a look at Index at lunch time.
ClockworkZion wrote: Flipping back to Sisters of Silence/Sisters of Battle, after reading Watchers of the Throne last night instead of sleeping I can say I don't expect a roll up of the two armies.
Basically the Sisters of Silence (who weren't on Black Ships or under the Inquisition) pretended to be Sisters of Battle convents but that's basically it. The bottom levels where all Sisters of Silence organizational focused and there really isn't any sign of there being any faith their with the Sister of Silence character mentioning that she can't see the Emperor as anything other than a man due to her nature.
Basically when you're separate from the reality others experience it's hard to be religious. This is a sentiment I'd expect to carry over across the board to other Sisters of Silence.
if they rlled up the two armies it would IMHO be only if they returned to "codex witch hunters" in which case sisters of silence as an elite choice to operate along side sisters of battle might be a option, the only reason I wonder if SoS might be folded in with someone else is right now they are elites and not troops
I don't really like SoS models (goddamn TOPKNOTS) but I could see them being fluffed as joining the sororitas. I mean the main job of both factions is being anti-psyker so it makes sense if you think of it that way. Guilliman is all "hey you female anti-psykers, support this other group of women we have that super hates psykers."
I know right? It seems to be a pretty logical move. Both their fields overlap, so the best course of action, in lore, would be to merge the two into a single organisation to cut down on bureaucracy.
Then again, they are under the authority of two different imperial branches, the navigators (SoS) and the church (SoB). Not sure how merging them into a single group would reflect that. Maybe have the group led by representatives from this organisations, or the inquisition? Not sure.
Are the Sisters of Silence still under the Black Ships / Navigators or reporting more directly to RG now? Will have a look at Index at lunch time.
Its not entirely clear. All it says is the usual spiel about how the Sisters of Silence were created under the emperor to be among the best anti-psychic soldiers.
I'm assuming they still guard the Black Ships, but GW retcons their fluff so often now that I can't keep track anymore.
Fluff-wise, I never really associated the SoB with being anti-psyker. They were always just generally anti-heretic. Yes, psykers are included in the "heretic" label, but so is pretty much everyone in the Imperium to some degree or another.
Well yeah, that's the point. They are repentant. Embarrassment has historically been a part of the penance process.
The lack of armor is also to show that they have faith the Emperor will protect them, which again is part of the process.
Well yeah, that's the point. They are repentant. Embarrassment has historically been a part of the penance process.
The lack of armor is also to show that they have faith the Emperor will protect them, which again is part of the process.
No that's just an excuse to have naked ladies. That Blanche Repentia concept is much better.
Does it really show penance though? I mean, that concept art just looks like a bald sister to me. Generally speaking, the penitents tended to dress up silly, from white sheets to animal masks. Its for that reason why I think the repentia should just have a simple white robe on, in reference to such religious practices and well as that protective faith of the Emperor thing, rather than leather bikinis. Nothing wrong with that, mind you, just doesn't quite fit thematically. That's more of a Slaanesh thing, imo.
I wouldn't mind if Sob follows 1ksons, and I say that as a xenos only player. Sisters have been neglected more than long enough to have earned their place as "one of us" imo.
In fact I really hope it's a codex + models release. I would have started a sisters army 10-15 years ago if they'd only had plastic infantry.
EnTyme wrote: Fluff-wise, I never really associated the SoB with being anti-psyker. They were always just generally anti-heretic. Yes, psykers are included in the "heretic" label, but so is pretty much everyone in the Imperium to some degree or another.
Kill the Witch, Purge the Alien, Burn the Heretic. Sisters have had prayers for doing all three from their start.
When you tend to deal with heretics a fair bit you tend to realize you need some anti-psyker things due to mutant sorcerers.. It's why the Ordo Hereticus was related to them for a while and still tend to call upon them to help "Burn the Witch"
My SOB solution to witches and rogue psykers has been the same for several editions. A meltagun.
But yeah, giving sisters an actual psychic defense would be good. I've been mulling over a 1/turn -1d3 (or 1d6) to a power targeting a sister unit. That way it's not the same as SoS, but still has that "I deny you" feel. You could have canoness and diologus give bonuses in auras to it too even.
One of the (many) things that bugged me about SoS becoming a 40k thing, is that the only difference between them and an old WitchHunter codex inquisitor with null rod and pentagrammic (or was it hexagrammic) wards, is the unit name. These both gave a negative to enemy psyker tests and couldnt be targeted by psychic powers.
SoS should have been SoB chamber sisters to the ordos hereticus, equipped with null rods and wards. New cool unit for SoB and not needing to force in SoS.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: One of the (many) things that bugged me about SoS becoming a 40k thing, is that the only difference between them and an old WitchHunter codex inquisitor with null rod and pentagrammic (or was it hexagrammic) wards, is the unit name. These both gave a negative to enemy psyker tests and couldnt be targeted by psychic powers.
SoS should have been SoB chamber sisters to the ordos hereticus, equipped with null rods and wards. New cool unit for SoB and not needing to force in SoS.
the problem is the units where created for a GW 30k game and they gave us 40k stats for them, and thus needed to bring em into the lore
Oh, I definitely know the Sororitas have to face off against psykers a lot and would need the tools to do so, it's just not where my mind immediately goes when I think of Sisters.
I don't know, I rather like the idea of the over the top penitents that Repentia are supposed to be. I mean look at the bottom right of this image:
Now imagine that captured on plastic.
Then again I'm the same person who has argued that Repentia shouldn't be wearing the boots from their power armour but instead go barefoot....so take that as you will.
Oh, in case you haven't heard, the remaining bits of the original Triumvirate (Celestine/Geminae and Greyfax) are getting solo kits up for preorder this weekend. $55 and $25 respectively. Seems semi-relevant to this thread.
ClockworkZion wrote: I don't know, I rather like the idea of the over the top penitents that Repentia are supposed to be. I mean look at the bottom right of this image:
Now imagine that captured on plastic.
Then again I'm the same person who has argued that Repentia shouldn't be wearing the boots from their power armour but instead go barefoot....so take that as you will.
That art is amazing and needs to be adopted into miniatures. That's a good design for repentia; wearing nothing but, chains, robes and purity seals, as a penance obsessed fanatic should. By simple I meant by Imperial Church standards. So not decked out in bling. Purity scroll piercings and holy script engraved into their skin is acceptable.
Shut up. It's 2018. Artistic expression of all forms needs to take a back seat to the rigerous standards of social progress. Naked penitant demented religious fanatics are people to and deserve equal treatment to non-penitant religious fanatics.
Sim-Life wrote: Shut up. It's 2018. Artistic expression of all forms needs to take a back seat to the rigerous standards of social progress. Naked penitant demented religious fanatics are people to and deserve equal treatment to non-penitant religious fanatics.
I think somewhere, in some fantasy universe, there can be found a mythical place that was once called a "middle ground" between fully armored non-penitent strong independent repentia who don't need no man and the current situation we have which is a sort of "oh me oh my, I have gotten a tiny scratch on my perfectly formed plump thigh which just happens to be exposed by this highly effective martial pose I am in which just happens to also show off my boobies. Tee hee, I hope the mistress of repentence wearing power armored Madonna cones doesn't whip me for being a bad girl!"
Sim-Life wrote:
Shut up. It's 2018. Artistic expression of all forms needs to take a back seat to the rigerous standards of social progress. Naked penitant demented religious fanatics are people to and deserve equal treatment to non-penitant religious fanatics.
I think somewhere, in some fantasy universe, there can be found a mythical place that was once called a "middle ground" between fully armored non-penitent strong independent repentia who don't need no man and the current situation we have which is a sort of "oh me oh my, I have gotten a tiny scratch on my perfectly formed plump thigh which just happens to be exposed by this highly effective martial pose I am in which just happens to also show off my boobies. Tee hee, I hope the mistress of repentence wearing power armored Madonna cones doesn't whip me for being a bad girl!"
non-penitent repentia
(I feel like this is sarcasm, not sure though)
A non-penitent repentia is pretty contradictory to itself. If a sister is a non-penitent then she is not a repentia, only in the case that a sister is a penitent the only way she can redeem herself is death and will be stripped of her armor only leaving her robes and is no longer allowed to be called by her name until she either she repents or dies (death is most likely).
on the OP
"If Sisters of Battle are next codex after Custodes then Thousand Sons how would you feel?"
Ecstatic and would probably put myself in credit card dept. On the other hand with the release of the custodes and the uproar of the community expecting more of a xenoes focus especially with that facebook teaser "they have watched, they have waited,...." felt like necrons and would be appropriate. It could be seen as a big miss read by GW to what the community is expecting.
I am not going to lie, if SoB where released after 1Ksons then I would happily spend my life savings and max out an overdraft just to purchase an armies worth, even though I dont really play anymore.
But (thankfully for my wallet) this is GW we are talking about, so the chances are sadly rather low, and if they are will most likely be low quality cartoonish/animeish childs toy crap that is sold for £55 for 5 because "premium plastic SoB".
"If Sisters of Battle are next codex after Custodes then Thousand Sons how would you feel?"
Ecstatic and would probably put myself in credit card dept. On the other hand with the release of the custodes and the uproar of the community expecting more of a xenoes focus especially with that facebook teaser "they have watched, they have waited,...." felt like necrons and would be appropriate. It could be seen as a big miss read by GW to what the community is expecting.
I think the backlash was so severe because the teaser really seemed to imply Xenos more than anything, and then we got more Imperium, and not just more Imperium, but more models that look to a casual observer (someone who doesn't spend their time on 40k message boards like I do and couldn't tell you the difference between a Blood Angel and a Dark Angel.) like every other model in power armor, just more elaborate. Even new Catachan models would have received less backlash than Custodes.
