Zewrath wrote: So with the info released about movement, and with all the info about how much shooting has been buffed, any unit in the game can now disengage while the rest of the army can now shred the enemy CC unit to diced confetti.
RIP CC armies.
Disengaging keeps e unit that backed up from shooting unless they have a special rule that let's them (like Fly or Walking Battleship).
Until we have actual, 100% confirmation that "Fly" lets them do this--please make it clear that it's potentially the case.
Youn wrote: So, if you surround a vehicle with troops inside. It won't be able to FALL BACK, because it cannot tank shock an opponent now. And won't have space to move away. Any troops that are inside will be instantly destroyed because they won't be able to deploy more then 1" away from an opponent and within 3" of the vehicle.
This is going to make 90 plague zombies deadly to something like a rhino with troops in it.
Very fluffy actually. Trapped inside your APC, unable to jump out into the horde of zombies as far as the eye can see, firing desperately your bolt pistol out the window as you wait for them to tear it apart and eat your brain.
This isn't too different than how it works now, but at least in 7th edition you can Tank Shock your way out. In 8th it seems as though the transport will just have to sit there in the zombie tar pit - not fluffy and not good in my opinion. This may have been a terrible oversight.
Ever tried to drive with 30+ corpses wrapped around your axel?
Zewrath wrote: So with the info released about movement, and with all the info about how much shooting has been buffed, any unit in the game can now disengage while the rest of the army can now shred the enemy CC unit to diced confetti.
RIP CC armies.
Except, you know, for that rule that wyches have that stops falling back from happening.
A rule that may quite possibly show up on other units, or variations of that rule
I'm quite surprised with how they translated the Annihilation Barge. It seems like they really missed the obvious opportunity to just give it Quantum-level stats (T8 2+ or 3+) but subject the vehicle to degradation effects (as seen in the Morkonaut profile).
...Which they clearly didn't do, because the released statline doesn't have stars for T or Save values.
So instead of using a perfectly usable mechanics that is a reasonable implementation of the fluff, they've (probably) decided to use a Bespoke rule. Kinda disappointing.
I suppose they're trying to avoid degradation tables for all but the biggest models, which makes a fair amount of sense for speed-of-play purposes (keeping track of changed stats for every Rhino would have been a pain), but this seems like it could have been a reasonable exception, especially if there were basically only two potential values - Quantum-Shield-working and -notworking.
Also, Power 7... so more expensive than a 5 man Intercessor NuMarine squad, but less expensive than 4 Rubric Marines and an Aspiring Sorceror.
Interesting.
LOL on Kanluwen holding the line on the Fly ability. You do you, buddy.
Zewrath wrote: So with the info released about movement, and with all the info about how much shooting has been buffed, any unit in the game can now disengage while the rest of the army can now shred the enemy CC unit to diced confetti.
RIP CC armies.
Disengaging keeps e unit that backed up from shooting unless they have a special rule that let's them (like Fly or Walking Battleship).
Until we have actual, 100% confirmation that "Fly" lets them do this--please make it clear that it's potentially the case.
I mentioned fly as an example of a rulemthat does, but it,s only listed as a rulemon the Crisis Suits and not even a USR.
Plus Crisis Suits will likely see a points bump in the new edition I'm betting.
How about we wait until the full rules are released and we get ga,es in before we cry that something in the game is dead?
It does not affect units of a single model, for obvious reasons. This usually means vehicles.
Even if the vehicle is in a squadron, it still probably won't matter, because vehicles, by the looks of it, tend to have LD10. You'd have to take about 5 losses before morale checks start to matter.
Most vehicle squadrons consist of about 3 models.
Spoletta wrote: The Vehicles being able to charge are really a HUGE boost to assault armies.
Charge first with vehicle and then with infantry, if the vehicle makes it, then the infantry doesn't have to suffer the overwatch. Between this and the assault from deepstrike i'm afraid that this edition will be really assault centered.
A few days ago people were saying it was going to be shoot centric again. Between this and that, I'd say it looks pretty balanced.
I just hope Nids get the fearsome factor back if transports will be this powerful.
Don't fret, I'm sure in a couple of days we'll be right back to complaining about shooting again! The circle of life...
Zewrath wrote:So with the info released about movement, and with all the info about how much shooting has been buffed, any unit in the game can now disengage while the rest of the army can now shred the enemy CC unit to diced confetti.
RIP CC armies.
I like the vehicle rules so far. I guess the Goliath Rockgrinder will see some action in close combat.
Zewrath wrote: So with the info released about movement, and with all the info about how much shooting has been buffed, any unit in the game can now disengage while the rest of the army can now shred the enemy CC unit to diced confetti.
RIP CC armies.
Disengaging keeps e unit that backed up from shooting unless they have a special rule that let's them (like Fly or Walking Battleship).
Until we have actual, 100% confirmation that "Fly" lets them do this--please make it clear that it's potentially the case.
I mentioned fly as an example of a rule that does, but it's only listed as a rule on the Crisis Suits and not even a USR.
Except we know that it is a USR, effectively. Frankie talked about them being able to do this for having the "keyword Fly".
Know what else we saw in the same Tau article?
Spoiler:
Funny how no mention of Sniper Drones doing the same thing...
I mean, if it were such a big deal that "Fly" lets them do this? I wouldn't have mentioned "Crisis Suits". I would have just said "Battlesuits and Drones". Because Ghostkeels, Stealth Suits, and Drones all likely have "Fly".
Plus Crisis Suits will likely see a points bump in the new edition I'm betting.
How about we wait until the full rules are released and we get games in before we cry that something in the game is dead?
I think you're talking to the wrong person on this one.
I've been, fairly consistently, arguing that there is a lot we're not seeing.
Unusual Suspect wrote: I'm quite surprised with how they translated the Annihilation Barge. It seems like they really missed the obvious opportunity to just give it Quantum-level stats (T8 2+ or 3+) but subject the vehicle to degradation effects (as seen in the Morkonaut profile).
...Which they clearly didn't do, because the released statline doesn't have stars for T or Save values.
So instead of using a perfectly usable mechanics that is a reasonable implementation of the fluff, they've (probably) decided to use a Bespoke rule. Kinda disappointing.
:
I think it would be better to have the base stats on the statline. You can see the stats change if there is a degradation box.
Zewrath wrote: So with the info released about movement, and with all the info about how much shooting has been buffed, any unit in the game can now disengage while the rest of the army can now shred the enemy CC unit to diced confetti.
RIP CC armies.
Diengaging keeps e unit that backed up from shooting unless they have a special rule that let's them (like Fly or Walking Battleship).
If you read my post, I stated 'the rest of the army can now shred the enemy CC unit'.
I couldn't care less about my guardsmen not getting to shoot the unit they disengaged from, when the rest of the army is fully capable of doing so, unless the rules says the CC unit you disengaged from is immune. I'm quite surprised at why this isn't fully obvious to people.
Unusual Suspect wrote: I'm quite surprised with how they translated the Annihilation Barge. It seems like they really missed the obvious opportunity to just give it Quantum-level stats (T8 2+ or 3+) but subject the vehicle to degradation effects (as seen in the Morkonaut profile).
...Which they clearly didn't do, because the released statline doesn't have stars for T or Save values.
So instead of using a perfectly usable mechanics that is a reasonable implementation of the fluff, they've (probably) decided to use a Bespoke rule. Kinda disappointing.
:
I think it would be better to have the base stats on the statline. You can see the stats change if there is a degradation box.
It might have been better that way, but that isn't the way GW decided to do things (as we've seen explicitly on the Morkonaut, and will probably see in the Imperial Knights when that article goes live tomorrow).
Zewrath wrote: So with the info released about movement, and with all the info about how much shooting has been buffed, any unit in the game can now disengage while the rest of the army can now shred the enemy CC unit to diced confetti.
RIP CC armies.
Diengaging keeps e unit that backed up from shooting unless they have a special rule that let's them (like Fly or Walking Battleship).
If you read my post, I stated 'the rest of the army can now shred the enemy CC unit'.
I couldn't care less about my guardsmen not getting to shoot the unit they disengaged from, when the rest of the army is fully capable of doing so, unless the rules says the CC unit you disengaged from is immune. I'm quite surprised at why this isn't fully obvious to people.
It's been mentioned before, but I would expect there to be some CC units which can disengage and move away after making their attacks.
Also, not sure how this situation is different to now where if a CC unit wipes out a unit they're locked in combat with they're vulnerable.
Zewrath wrote: So with the info released about movement, and with all the info about how much shooting has been buffed, any unit in the game can now disengage while the rest of the army can now shred the enemy CC unit to diced confetti.
RIP CC armies.
Except, you know, for that rule that wyches have that stops falling back from happening.
A rule that may quite possibly show up on other units, or variations of that rule
Right.. gakky units you don't want in CC anyway cause they are a waste of time, punch like a wet paper bag, no inv save against now unlimited overwatch, now have a chance to MAYBE remain stuck in CC. Yeah, what a buff.
Kanluwen wrote: Except we know that it is a USR, effectively. Frankie talked about them being able to do this for having the "keyword Fly".
Yes, in fact, let's look at that exact quote:
Oh, and did I forget to mention they have the Fly keyword? This allows them to Fall Back from combat and still shoot at full effect. Brutal!
This allows them to, as in, "this keyword allows them to do this thing". There is no other way it can be interpreted - it IS fly giving them this ability. They don't specify suits, so why would the article repeat itself when it gets to drones? "Oh by the way these can also fall back too for the exact same reason we said otherwise"? It's pretty unequivocal.
Zewrath wrote: So with the info released about movement, and with all the info about how much shooting has been buffed, any unit in the game can now disengage while the rest of the army can now shred the enemy CC unit to diced confetti.
RIP CC armies.
Aaand we have gone full circle, didn't even need one page!
It's almost as if people actually have no idea and are just randomly whinging, isn't it?
Zewrath wrote: So with the info released about movement, and with all the info about how much shooting has been buffed, any unit in the game can now disengage while the rest of the army can now shred the enemy CC unit to diced confetti.
RIP CC armies.
Diengaging keeps e unit that backed up from shooting unless they have a special rule that let's them (like Fly or Walking Battleship).
If you read my post, I stated 'the rest of the army can now shred the enemy CC unit'.
I couldn't care less about my guardsmen not getting to shoot the unit they disengaged from, when the rest of the army is fully capable of doing so, unless the rules says the CC unit you disengaged from is immune. I'm quite surprised at why this isn't fully obvious to people.
If the only target worth shooting at is a single close combat unit, then your opponent has more problems than you shooting at them.
Spoletta wrote: The Vehicles being able to charge are really a HUGE boost to assault armies.
Charge first with vehicle and then with infantry, if the vehicle makes it, then the infantry doesn't have to suffer the overwatch. Between this and the assault from deepstrike i'm afraid that this edition will be really assault centered.
Funny how we arrived at this again only 3 days after 80% of the relevant posts in here declared that 8th edition is going to be super shooting dominated.
It's almost as people shouldn't judge the overall balance of an edition when they only know a fraction of the rules...or base stuff on how it currently works when an almost 2nd to 3rd edition level rework of the rules is happening
Yep, this is a big boost for transport-based assault armies. The idea of having the trukks hit the lines first, then the boyz on the following turn? Now that's good stuff.
Kanluwen wrote: Except we know that it is a USR, effectively. Frankie talked about them being able to do this for having the "keyword Fly".
Yes, in fact, let's look at that exact quote:
Oh, and did I forget to mention they have the Fly keyword? This allows them to Fall Back from combat and still shoot at full effect. Brutal!
This allows them to, as in, "this keyword allows them to do this thing". There is no other way it can be interpreted - it IS fly giving them this ability. They don't specify suits, so why would the article repeat itself when it gets to drones? "Oh by the way these can also fall back too for the exact same reason we said otherwise"? It's pretty unequivocal.
You know that ANYONE can fall back right?
Warhammer Community's "Movement" article wrote:Oh, there was one last thing.
If you’re in combat at the start of your turn, you can Fall Back by moving away from the enemy. You’ll lose the ability to advance, shoot or charge that turn, and crucially, enemies will be able to shoot at you! This does, however, open up a vast range of tactical options for armies like the Astra Militarum, who will now be able to effectively deploy in firing lines, with each row falling back from any assaults in good order (if they survived) while the unit behind them fires at the attackers. It goes both ways though – if you have a dedicated assault unit that specializes in killing infantry (like Warp Talons) your opponent will find it much harder to pin them down in combat with heavily armoured units for the entire game.
So your argument is that, for whatever reason, you think the keyword "Fly"(which they've talked about or mentioned multiple times before the T'au article and never mentioned this ability before) allows for a unit exiting a Combat to act normally during their turn...rather than there being a bespoke rule like "Bonding Knife Ritual" that Frankie forgets to mention?
Again: if it's such a huge deal that "Fly" lets you do this, you'd think that kind of thing would have been mentioned elsewhere too. Because "Fly" is NOT a faction exclusive keyword to the T'au or their Crisis Suits.
Also want to point out that if a transport maanges to unload its close combat cargo close to an enemy and is still alive after that, it will still be able to charge a completely different target than the cargo, tie down another unit and force them to waste a turn retreating and doing nothing, likely even on the same turn as the unloading.
Yep, this is a big boost for transport-based assault armies. The idea of having the trukks hit the lines first, then the boyz on the following turn? Now that's good stuff.
Indeed, my custom Sgt Chronos tank commander is very happy indeed
Zewrath wrote: So with the info released about movement, and with all the info about how much shooting has been buffed, any unit in the game can now disengage while the rest of the army can now shred the enemy CC unit to diced confetti.
RIP CC armies.
Diengaging keeps e unit that backed up from shooting unless they have a special rule that let's them (like Fly or Walking Battleship).
If you read my post, I stated 'the rest of the army can now shred the enemy CC unit'.
I couldn't care less about my guardsmen not getting to shoot the unit they disengaged from, when the rest of the army is fully capable of doing so, unless the rules says the CC unit you disengaged from is immune. I'm quite surprised at why this isn't fully obvious to people.
It's been mentioned before, but I would expect there to be some CC units which can disengage and move away after making their attacks.
Also, not sure how this situation is different to now where if a CC unit wipes out a unit they're locked in combat with they're vulnerable.
You should rather be asking why are you comparing those things? One scenario is about overkill, the other is about units being well and alive who just goes like "nope!", walks away almost AoS style out of combat and almost completely negatives all the downsides about being in CC and robs you of the safety of being in CC, which is a safety almost anyone who plays a CC army plans for.
Deadshot wrote: I' a few pages behind but to address this, it did matter about where he was standing. See, when he stood an inch (or several meters in scale) to the right, he was firing at the side armour with a very steep angle, meaning the force of the round was not being applied perpendicular to the armour, but rather, closer to parrallel, so much force is lost. Step several meters (an inch) to the right and now you can fire at the vehicle closer to "face on" and apply much more force in the direction you need it to go, which is through the armour and into the (fuel cell, ammo, passenger, etc).
No, I meant an actual inch in scale. On the tabletop the weapon might even be pointing at the very same spot of the vehicle without a visual difference in angle. You cross a magic line by a hair and suddenly the chimera folds like paper instead of having the tough armor of battle tanks.
Over the course of the last three editions I have experienced dozens of discussions about an sixteenth of an inch about whether that one guy holding the melta gun was in the vulnerable ark of a vehicle or not.
I have experienced multiple players cheating during their deep strike deployment, while disembarking from a transport, even nudging models 'accidentally' while they thought no one is looking just to get into the "right" facing.
In addition, what's so vulnerable about there rear part of a battlewagon? There is nothing there that couldn't be accessed better from the side, in some configurations there is literally nothing to shoot there at all except for the armored part of the tracks and an exhaust pipe.
The rule is just as unrealistic as the new implementation - except it is terribly written and thus does not work at all in actual games. And please draw that diagram for a wave serpent, a battlewagon with deff rolla and a soul grinder, put it on YMDC and see if anybody disagrees.
Zewrath wrote: So with the info released about movement, and with all the info about how much shooting has been buffed, any unit in the game can now disengage while the rest of the army can now shred the enemy CC unit to diced confetti.
RIP CC armies.
Diengaging keeps e unit that backed up from shooting unless they have a special rule that let's them (like Fly or Walking Battleship).
If you read my post, I stated 'the rest of the army can now shred the enemy CC unit'.
I couldn't care less about my guardsmen not getting to shoot the unit they disengaged from, when the rest of the army is fully capable of doing so, unless the rules says the CC unit you disengaged from is immune. I'm quite surprised at why this isn't fully obvious to people.
If the only target worth shooting at is a single close combat unit, then your opponent has more problems than you shooting at them.
Yonasu wrote: If charging out of rhinos is possible you can bring your little rhino pet into the melee to help you punch stuff. I see no rule saying you cant ride it into battle as well, so why not have rhino saddles?
No seriously how is this immersive at all? It's just dumb.. And if you get stuck in combat with a rhino and have to leave fight and cant shoot? Cmon...
Yes, because the fact that tank shock makes more sense is stupid. The fact that your tank can run people over while they try to stick grenades toit is stupid. Because running people over as a moving wall of metal to support the squishier elements who need to get into combat is stupid. Because adding new tactical options that make assaulting stronger is stupid. Because making wargear like the Rockgrinder and Deff Rolla is stupid.
Because making the game more balanced, more tactically interesting and making transports more important than just a temporary bunker is totally stupid, right?
Just because you have some kind of weird dislike for the game making things work in a way that makes the game better doesn't make it bad. A rhino leading a charge for a squad of Marines is no different than a Carnifex leading one for Hormagaunts. It's sound tactics to use somethhing durable to take punishment and lock up an enemy umit so a squishier unit can get locked in.
Dude are you drunk? what the hell are you even talking about?
It's a miniature game mechanic that i dont feel represent the game world. How hard is that to handle? Did GW cure cancer and saved your granny so that now you cant even conceive of anything they do can be criticized?
And YES, it's really dumb that you bring your APC into combat with you trying to nudge the infantry to death. In every battle every time (which will happen)
Hell you have the rhino charging first to eat the overwatch, its gonna be silly.
But nah i guess you play with pine cones and just worry about stats right?
Yep, this is a big boost for transport-based assault armies. The idea of having the trukks hit the lines first, then the boyz on the following turn? Now that's good stuff.
Following turn? Have the boyz hop out, run some stuff over by charging with the trukk and get the boyz in that turn.
Zewrath wrote: So with the info released about movement, and with all the info about how much shooting has been buffed, any unit in the game can now disengage while the rest of the army can now shred the enemy CC unit to diced confetti.
RIP CC armies.
Except, you know, for that rule that wyches have that stops falling back from happening.
A rule that may quite possibly show up on other units, or variations of that rule
Right.. gakky units you don't want in CC anyway cause they are a waste of time, punch like a wet paper bag, no inv save against now unlimited overwatch, now have a chance to MAYBE remain stuck in CC. Yeah, what a buff.
You do know wyches are getting buffed, right? And you missed my point; there are ways to stop disengaging.
Ragnar Blackmane wrote: Also want to point out that if a transport maanges to unload its close combat cargo close to an enemy and is still alive after that, it will still be able to charge a completely different target than the cargo, tie down another unit and force them to waste a turn retreating and doing nothing, likely even on the same turn as the unloading.
That's a great point, and might be a valid tactic presuming there aren't any other rules interactions we don't know about. It's an especially cool visual for things like Ork trukks, though their fragility might make them vulnerable to overwatch.
Mostly I'm excited about the possibilities this opens for a new Buggy kit. Assault buggies kitted out with melee weapons would be fantastic!
Zewrath wrote: So with the info released about movement, and with all the info about how much shooting has been buffed, any unit in the game can now disengage while the rest of the army can now shred the enemy CC unit to diced confetti.
RIP CC armies.
Diengaging keeps e unit that backed up from shooting unless they have a special rule that let's them (like Fly or Walking Battleship).
If you read my post, I stated 'the rest of the army can now shred the enemy CC unit'.
I couldn't care less about my guardsmen not getting to shoot the unit they disengaged from, when the rest of the army is fully capable of doing so, unless the rules says the CC unit you disengaged from is immune. I'm quite surprised at why this isn't fully obvious to people.
If the only target worth shooting at is a single close combat unit, then your opponent has more problems than you shooting at them.
That strawman is almost on a fascinating level.
You mentioned that your entire army wpuldmbe able to shoot that single unit, I was poiinting outthat if the only target for an entire army is a single unit there is more going wrong for your opponent than just getting shot at.
So your argument is that, for whatever reason, you think the keyword "Fly"(which they've talked about or mentioned multiple times before the T'au article and never mentioned this ability before) allows for a unit exiting a Combat to act normally during their turn...rather than there being a bespoke rule like "Bonding Knife Ritual" that Frankie forgets to mention?
Again: if it's such a huge deal that "Fly" lets you do this, you'd think that kind of thing would have been mentioned elsewhere too. Because "Fly" is NOT a faction exclusive keyword to the T'au or their Crisis Suits.
What on Earth are you on about? Literally read the quote:
they have the Fly keyword? This allows them to Fall Back from combat and still shoot at full effect.
If "fly" was just referring to their ability to fall back there's no reason for it to be mentioned at all. If fly isn't allowing the unit to fall back and fire using "and still" is nonsensical. The sentence cannot be read in any other way at all. No, I don't think the Frankie, having explicitly called out a key word, meant that "they have the fly keyword which I'm going to mention randomly with no cause to do so, and also the can fall back and shoot normally due to another rule I'm not going to mention, also using the words 'this' as well as 'still' makes no sense at all lol". I don't even understand HOW it can be read like that. When he says "this allows", it's very painfully obvious that he's referring to the thing he just said. When he says "and still" it very clearly means that the reason they can do it is because of the thing mentioned immediately prior. It's black and white.
EDIT:
Also:
which they've talked about or mentioned multiple times before the T'au article
In which article prior to this have they ever mentioned the fly keyword?!
Zewrath wrote: So with the info released about movement, and with all the info about how much shooting has been buffed, any unit in the game can now disengage while the rest of the army can now shred the enemy CC unit to diced confetti.
RIP CC armies.
Except, you know, for that rule that wyches have that stops falling back from happening.
A rule that may quite possibly show up on other units, or variations of that rule
Right.. gakky units you don't want in CC anyway cause they are a waste of time, punch like a wet paper bag, no inv save against now unlimited overwatch, now have a chance to MAYBE remain stuck in CC. Yeah, what a buff.
You do know wyches are getting buffed, right? And you missed my point; there are ways to stop disengaging.
You do know wyches aren't getting any buffs, right? There's a DE focused article you might wanna read, they have the same rules with inv saves that doesn't work against overwatch, logically they are still S/T3, and since initiative are dead, your not even striking first most of the time, like before.
Unless they actually make the phantasm grenade launcher work exactly like it should, no overwatch (same treatment their favoured eldar got with banshees), they are essentially a dead unit. We've spent the last 3 editions proving, with theorycrafting, exactly why wyches are terrible in CC so unless they get some really radical buffs and changes, they are still the same trash level.
Zewrath wrote: So with the info released about movement, and with all the info about how much shooting has been buffed, any unit in the game can now disengage while the rest of the army can now shred the enemy CC unit to diced confetti.
RIP CC armies.
Diengaging keeps e unit that backed up from shooting unless they have a special rule that let's them (like Fly or Walking Battleship).
If you read my post, I stated 'the rest of the army can now shred the enemy CC unit'.
I couldn't care less about my guardsmen not getting to shoot the unit they disengaged from, when the rest of the army is fully capable of doing so, unless the rules says the CC unit you disengaged from is immune. I'm quite surprised at why this isn't fully obvious to people.
If the only target worth shooting at is a single close combat unit, then your opponent has more problems than you shooting at them.
That strawman is almost on a fascinating level.
You mentioned that your entire army wpuldmbe able to shoot that single unit, I was poiinting outthat if the only target for an entire army is a single unit there is more going wrong for your opponent than just getting shot at.
That means the rest of my army is now able to shoot it, not going to shoot it. There's a big difference there.
So your argument is that, for whatever reason, you think the keyword "Fly"(which they've talked about or mentioned multiple times before the T'au article and never mentioned this ability before) allows for a unit exiting a Combat to act normally during their turn...rather than there being a bespoke rule like "Bonding Knife Ritual" that Frankie forgets to mention?
Again: if it's such a huge deal that "Fly" lets you do this, you'd think that kind of thing would have been mentioned elsewhere too. Because "Fly" is NOT a faction exclusive keyword to the T'au or their Crisis Suits.
What on Earth are you on about? Literally read the quote:
they have the Fly keyword? This allows them to Fall Back from combat and still shoot at full effect.
If "fly" was just referring to their ability to fall back there's no reason for it to be mentioned at all. If fly isn't allowing the unit to fall back and fire using "and still" is nonsensical. The sentence cannot be read in any other way at all. No, I don't think the Frankie, having explicitly called out a key word, meant that "they have the fly keyword which I'm going to mention randomly with no cause to do so, and also the can fall back and shoot normally due to another rule I'm not going to mention, also using the words this as well as still make no sense at all lol". I don't even understand HOW it can be read like that. When he says "this allows", it's very painfully obvious that he's referring to the thing he just said. When he says "and still" it very clearly means that the reason they can do it is because of the thing mentioned immediately prior. It's black and white.
So, again, why was this USR keyword doing this amazing thing not mentioned anywhere else? Why wasn't it mentioned during the Dark Eldar faction focus for Scourges? For Eldar for their Jetbikes? Chaos Daemons for Princes or Tzeentchian stuff? During the Movement phase article early on?
It's not like people have been, y'know, complaining that Frankie's "Faction Focus" articles have been less than well written since the CSM one he wrote...
Really like how they are doing vehicles. I am sure there is some formula they are using to try and get the combined facings turned into Toughness.
So we have the Annihilation Barge 11/11/11 turn into T6 8 wounds 4+
Leman Russ 14/(13/12)/(11/10) Turned into T8 12 wounds 3+
Dreadnaught 12/12/10 Turned into T7 8 Wounds 3+
We also have not seen what the equivalent of the skimmer rule might be. It could just be that they gain the FLY USR which would work fine as far as I am concerned.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Well, except for the part that says they are among the most improved units in the game, sure, no buffs.
Sorry mate, have you actually read all the articles from this guy? Legit question here. According to him, everything is buffed, amazing and is now going to be awesome. Look at the changes on the LRBT battle cannon. It's literally trash now and can barely put out over 1,5 unsaved wounds on average, even against favourable targets.
Safe to say that him stating that a unit is going to be "great again" has to be taken with grains of salt.
Leth wrote: Really like how they are doing vehicles. I am sure there is some formula they are using to try and get the combined facings turned into Toughness.
So we have the Annihilation Barge 11/11/11 turn into T6 8 wounds 4+
Leman Russ 14/(13/12)/(11/10) Turned into T8 12 wounds 3+
Dreadnaught 12/12/10 Turned into T7 8 Wounds 3+
We also have not seen what the equivalent of the skimmer rule might be. It could just be that they gain the FLY USR which would work fine as far as I am concerned.
Could of sworn there was something about jinking adding to your armor save or something?
Deadshot wrote: I' a few pages behind but to address this, it did matter about where he was standing. See, when he stood an inch (or several meters in scale) to the right, he was firing at the side armour with a very steep angle, meaning the force of the round was not being applied perpendicular to the armour, but rather, closer to parrallel, so much force is lost. Step several meters (an inch) to the right and now you can fire at the vehicle closer to "face on" and apply much more force in the direction you need it to go, which is through the armour and into the (fuel cell, ammo, passenger, etc).
No, I meant an actual inch in scale. On the tabletop the weapon might even be pointing at the very same spot of the vehicle without a visual difference in angle. You cross a magic line by a hair and suddenly the chimera folds like paper instead of having the tough armor of battle tanks.
Over the course of the last three editions I have experienced dozens of discussions about an sixteenth of an inch about whether that one guy holding the melta gun was in the vulnerable ark of a vehicle or not.
I have experienced multiple players cheating during their deep strike deployment, while disembarking from a transport, even nudging models 'accidentally' while they thought no one is looking just to get into the "right" facing.
In addition, what's so vulnerable about there rear part of a battlewagon? There is nothing there that couldn't be accessed better from the side, in some configurations there is literally nothing to shoot there at all except for the armored part of the tracks and an exhaust pipe.
The rule is just as unrealistic as the new implementation - except it is terribly written and thus does not work at all in actual games. And please draw that diagram for a wave serpent, a battlewagon with deff rolla and a soul grinder, put it on YMDC and see if anybody disagrees.
The rules are an abstraction that requires you to assume that the 1 inch on the tabletop is enough to represent a few metres to get a proper angle on the vehicle.
The second part has 2 subparts
i) Cheating is cheating, people nudging the models are cheating and that's that. Rules expect you to follow them, not to break them. The rules are not the issue if someone breaks the rules.
ii) Spirit of the game. The developers and rules do not account for inch-tight asshats and rules lawyering, 1 millionth of an inch measurements, and general unfriendliness. It certain doesn't expect opponents to argue about whether this 0.1" puts it in the side ark or the rear arc or the front arc. In 5th, it said that if you couldn't agree, roll off or give the cover save 5+ or something (basically, just stop arguing its a game ladies). Up until now its been marketed as a beer and pretzels game with beer and pretzels solutions; Friendly disagreement and willingness to concede a slight advantage in favour of having fun, or roll off
The rear armour on tanks is lighter due to the front being the thing that is heading into enemy fire. At least, Tiger II has heavier frontal armour than rear, and GW took most of its Imperial tank design from WW1 and 2 tanks over model vehicles to add to that stagnant Grimdarkness. The rear armour is designed to represent vulnerable fuel cells, exhaust pipes and other side things. You mention an exhaust pipe on a battle wagon. Presumably belching out highly flammable fossil fuel fumes that would surely explode if someone were to launch a cascade of star-hot gas at it?
I would happily except I need pictures of all those. I've nicked a random image of a falcon from Google but not many people give a bird's eye view of battle-wagons or Soulgrinders so providence of one would be much appreciated!
Zewrath wrote: ...your not even striking first most of the time, like before...
What you're experiencing is a fundamental misunderstanding of how close combat turn order works now. Check out the Close Combat community article then try again. Chargers strike first.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Well, except for the part that says they are among the most improved units in the game, sure, no buffs.
Sorry mate, have you actually read all the articles from this guy? Legit question here. According to him, everything is buffed, amazing and is now going to be awesome. Look at the changes on the LRBT battle cannon. It's literally trash now and can barely put out over 1,5 unsaved wounds on average, even against favourable targets.
Safe to say that him stating that a unit is going to be "great again" has to be taken with grains of salt.
Found the hyperbolist that doesn't play the game.
If the LRBT only does 1.5 wounds now (which is shoddy fething math to be sure mate), it'll be more than it has done in 3 editions. Seriously, simmer down. Your negative levels of NA are lethal.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Well, except for the part that says they are among the most improved units in the game, sure, no buffs.
Sorry mate, have you actually read all the articles from this guy? Legit question here. According to him, everything is buffed, amazing and is now going to be awesome. Look at the changes on the LRBT battle cannon. It's literally trash now and can barely put out over 1,5 unsaved wounds on average, even against favourable targets.
Safe to say that him stating that a unit is going to be "great again" has to be taken with grains of salt.
So that's the basis of your argument? "I don't trust what this guy says, therefore the rules must be gak?"
I'm assuming then you already know the new special rules, the effects of the combat drugs (if applicable. They better be in. That's like, a wych thing) and the new statline, to be so adamantly certain that he's over hyping it?
It could be that's he's exaggerating. It could also very well be that he's right.
Zewrath wrote: That means the rest of my army is now able to shoot it, not going to shoot it. There's a big difference there.
Point is the threat of being shot is not really a real problem.
Just because you MIGHT shoot, doesn't mean you SHOULD, WOULD or CAN actually choose to shoot that unit.
Flooding target priority has always been the defense mechanism of assault focused armies. So has hitting multiple targets at the same time. The ideal charge would have everyone of my assault units in close combat at the same time. Assuming I'm not ganging up on my targets, that'd mean for every unit I have in combat, that's one less you have to shoot with, even if you back up to shoot. If I consolidate into nearby units during my moves that'd pull even more units out of the shooting as well. And if I don't do that, certain armies (hordes basically) can wrap most units to keep them stuck in combat unless they have a movement rule that let's them hop over intervening models.
You present something that's a problem only in specific instances, and frankly I don't share your pessimism.
The game isn't even out yet and has been reworked from the ground up, but you want to insist that assault is dead because of a rule that could potentially be an issue in certain circumstances.
So your argument is that, for whatever reason, you think the keyword "Fly"(which they've talked about or mentioned multiple times before the T'au article and never mentioned this ability before) allows for a unit exiting a Combat to act normally during their turn...rather than there being a bespoke rule like "Bonding Knife Ritual" that Frankie forgets to mention?
Again: if it's such a huge deal that "Fly" lets you do this, you'd think that kind of thing would have been mentioned elsewhere too. Because "Fly" is NOT a faction exclusive keyword to the T'au or their Crisis Suits.
What on Earth are you on about? Literally read the quote:
they have the Fly keyword? This allows them to Fall Back from combat and still shoot at full effect.
If "fly" was just referring to their ability to fall back there's no reason for it to be mentioned at all. If fly isn't allowing the unit to fall back and fire using "and still" is nonsensical. The sentence cannot be read in any other way at all. No, I don't think the Frankie, having explicitly called out a key word, meant that "they have the fly keyword which I'm going to mention randomly with no cause to do so, and also the can fall back and shoot normally due to another rule I'm not going to mention, also using the words this as well as still make no sense at all lol". I don't even understand HOW it can be read like that. When he says "this allows", it's very painfully obvious that he's referring to the thing he just said. When he says "and still" it very clearly means that the reason they can do it is because of the thing mentioned immediately prior. It's black and white.
So, again, why was this USR keyword doing this amazing thing not mentioned anywhere else? Why wasn't it mentioned during the Dark Eldar faction focus for Scourges? For Eldar for their Jetbikes? Chaos Daemons for Princes or Tzeentchian stuff? During the Movement phase article early on?
It's not like people have been, y'know, complaining that Frankie's "Faction Focus" articles have been less than well written since the CSM one he wrote...
Well, to be fair, in those other articles, I don't think they mentioned those units in the preview (I didn't read the Chaos Daemons one, so maybe they did talk about them there). However, for Tau, they highlighted one of the more iconic units in their dex to showcase that rule. Possibly because Tau suits -don't like- being in CC. Whereas things like Scourges, DP's, Tzeentchian Daemon stuff, aren't nearly as fethed when that happens to them.
I can see both sides to the argument here, but I'm actually leaning a bit more to the side of the keyword "Fly" handing XV-8's this ability, which will very likely affect drones as well, since we can see they also have that keyword.
Yonasu wrote: If charging out of rhinos is possible you can bring your little rhino pet into the melee to help you punch stuff. I see no rule saying you cant ride it into battle as well, so why not have rhino saddles?
Zewrath wrote: ...your not even striking first most of the time, like before...
What you're experiencing is a fundamental misunderstanding of how close combat turn order works now. Check out the Close Combat community article then try again. Chargers strike first.
To add on to the reply: the units they don't are either dedicated close combat units (Banshees, Slaaneshi daemon units) or have special wargear to negate that (Lash Whips).
Fight Phase order is:
1. All Chargers
2. Alternating Activation for all other engaged units.
Yes, you can interrupt the first part ONCE a turn with a single unit for 2 Command Points, which could help weaken the opponent's punch, but that is hardly going to negate the charge bonus.
They're live on Facebook, not Twitch. So you'll be able to watch it after the fact.
But I'm sure there'll be a summary up.
So far it's been Primaris Marine talk and gushing over them. Apparently normal marines can be turned into Primaris Marines (perhaps foreshadowing current characters becoming Primaris Marines?).
Zewrath wrote: ...your not even striking first most of the time, like before...
What you're experiencing is a fundamental misunderstanding of how close combat turn order works now. Check out the Close Combat community article then try again. Chargers strike first.
While you lack the fundemental skills of reading, apparently. No, they are not striking first most of time like they used to do with high initiative. Except for charging, the opponent can activate his unit before you, if it's an ongoing combat and he can even prevent you from striking first on charge, if he burns a command token. You should follow your own advice and read up on that CC article and indeed, try again.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Well, except for the part that says they are among the most improved units in the game, sure, no buffs.
Sorry mate, have you actually read all the articles from this guy? Legit question here. According to him, everything is buffed, amazing and is now going to be awesome. Look at the changes on the LRBT battle cannon. It's literally trash now and can barely put out over 1,5 unsaved wounds on average, even against favourable targets.
Safe to say that him stating that a unit is going to be "great again" has to be taken with grains of salt.
Found the hyperbolist that doesn't play the game.
If the LRBT only does 1.5 wounds now (which is shoddy fething math to be sure mate), it'll be more than it has done in 3 editions. Seriously, simmer down. Your negative levels of NA are lethal.
You have some homework to study, before you accuse anyone of not playing the game, son.
Crimson wrote: OK. Fluff-wise existing Marines can be 'upgraded' into Primaris. This is good.
How is that good?
I thought people were worried about the existing space marines being phase out. Doesn't this pretty much guarantee that? Surely if a space marine can just be upgraded to a primaris marine, there would be no reason for the chapter masters and named characters to go through that procedure. I was thinking the existence of the named characters would be one of the few things preventing the elimination of "normal" marines.
Zewrath wrote: ...your not even striking first most of the time, like before...
What you're experiencing is a fundamental misunderstanding of how close combat turn order works now. Check out the Close Combat community article then try again. Chargers strike first.
While you lack the fundemental skills of reading, apparently. No, they are not striking first most of time like they used to do with high initiative. Except for charging, the opponent can activate his unit before you, if it's an ongoing combat and he can even prevent you from striking first on charge, if he burns a command token. You should follow your own advice and read up on that CC article and indeed, try again.
Sorry but i'm not sold on your point of view. Honestly, this is probably a jerk reaction, but based on the (admittedly limited) info we got right now, shooting armies are doomed.
They used to have 1 or 2 turns of shooting before receiving the impact of assault armies. Now all shooting weapons have been nerfed and they could have a grand total of 0 turns before engaging in CQC, because we have again turn 1 charges
Have fun when half your list is engaged with 40 hormagaunts that emerged from a Trygon before they could fire a single shoot (except overwatch).
Crimson wrote: OK. Fluff-wise existing Marines can be 'upgraded' into Primaris. This is good.
How is that good?
More believable than these new marines are scratch made and was squirrel away for 10k years. upgrading marines also allow the base marine to retain their old attributes so it makes sense when a salamander prime marine still has black skin, or RG,
Vehicles Q: I'd love to see a little more on Necrons overall please? This is the first mention we've gotten yet and it's barely anything. Gauss, reanimation, quantum shielding info would be very welcome because I'm super excited for 8th.
A: [REDACTED] you guys have been waiting under the sands of Tomb Worlds for millennia... this wait must be comparatively easy...
Q1: So since assault from vehicles is a thing, could a transport charge and soak up overwatch, and then have the troops inside charge out into the same target?
A1: We have an article on transports coming soon.... we promise.
Q2 (Marneus Calgar): When you say soon where would that fall on the scale of say a Nid invasion? Are we talking genestealer cults praying in the basement or the "sky is raining teeth"? level of soon?
A2: Marneus Calgar The fact you judge times in Tyranid invasions makes us very happy.
Q: How does this work if a transport, let's say a Trukk carrying a squad of 12 Boyz, charges another vehicle or infantry squadron? At what point will the Boyz be able to disembark and contribute to the melee?
A: Hey Alex - watch out for the transport-specific article, coming soon.
Q: So in the case of open topped vehicle passengers fighting in the combat phase. Will both passengers and vehicle fight at once or will they count as separate units for the "you go I go" purposes? Neuro shredder harlequins are going to be hard to shift I'm hoping
A: Hey Andrew - watch out for the transport article, coming soon.
Q: any hints on how units transport , especially characters - now that they are lone units. will i need to take a vehicle as a lone transport for say my ork warboss.?
A: We have loads more on transports coming soon in their own article.
Q: Still want to know with the new character rules how transports work. Do characters need to have their own or can they ride with the rank and file?
Also this give me high hopes for grabba claws and wrecking balls actually getting to do things. I can't wait to glue and paint them onto my truckk fleet.
A: All will be revealed when the transport article hits...
Q: I can't wait to run a Leman Russ with three heavy flamers and a dozer blade to keep the bodies from piling up and blocking the vision slits!
A: Big yes to this!
Q: Will Adeptus Mechanicus recieve some nice vehicles?
We are the only faction that has no dedicated flyers or transports.
Ignoring the Imperial Knights as unit because every faction can pick them up and they are still not ad mech specific.
Will Ad mech plasma weapons lose the gets hot rule?
What about Belisarius Cawl?
Will we get GW Titans (with decent plastic)
Or Overly Compensating Tanks.
What about grav? how it is going to influence the vehicles?
A: We have no news on new releases, I'm afraid. As soon as we know anything, we will let folks know here.
Q: Wow! Those are huge changes and will make 40k so much quicker to learn. Cant wait for fielding my Deffrolla-Burnaboyz Battlewagon! Some hints on the release date?
A: No hints to be had... but we can say Burna Boyz are monstrous in the new edition.
Q: Harlquin preview image got my hopes up... but wouldn't it be cool if the guys on the transports can fight off them in melee without disembarking (Would make sense with the sculpts!) and make open topped vehicles like them way better.
A: Hey Andrew - there is very much both a Harlequin-specific article and a transports article on the way.
Q: Warhammer 40,000, great stuff! Love the tidbits...but...the article doesn't say what's coming up tomorrow. Keeping it a secret, or is today the last of the bread crumbs?
A: Plenty of breadcrumbs.....
Oh, ok, tomorrow's article is on Close Combat Weapons...
Q: Can you give us any info on how a vehicle’s firing arc will work in 8th now, since they “shoot just like everyone else”? Can my ShadowSword shoot backwards?
A: No information as of yet; for the rules on the Shadowsword, you'll need to wait and see the data sheet.
Q: I beg of you, might Warhammer 40,000, reveal if we can charge when we disembark or have to wait a turn.
A: There's a transports article on the way, we promise!
Q: What happens when Land Raiders come charging? Are the troops inside charging as well?
A: Watch out for the transports article, coming soon.
Q: This sounds great! You guys have done a lot of hard work. What's the release date?
A: Real Soon!
Q1: Speaking of vehicles can you share any information on how drop pods will function in the matched play setting? Will we be able to keep our full pod armies?
A1: Hey guys- well, we haven't covered transports yet - they get their own article soon.
Q2: Well we have a good theme going here why not keeping it going with the transport article tomorrow? I note that you dont have anything queued up
A2: Marneus Calgar My Lord Macragge.... ummm....we're sorry to have displeased you! But my Lord, we have that other article lined up tomorrow... you know the one.... the one we spoke about?
Do you really want them to miss that one?
Q: First of all THANK YOU for giving us at least a tidbit for Necrons, I will no longer complain about not getting anything =D
Second, so an annihilation barge has 8 W the same as a dreadnought which severely weakens it in comparison. Since there is no universal rules for armies can you just tell me there will be something (Anything doesn't need to be a specific example) Necronish to help our vehicles stay alive? Otherwise we just got nerfed harcdcore.
A: Hey Sam -Thank you for reading! it's worth waiting to see the full rules for the Annihilation Barge before dropping the "nerf" bomb. Perhaps they have other rules? Perhaps they are cheaper in points? (Note: we're not sure, but it's fun to speculate!)
Q: Thank the Emperor I can now safely reverse my Leman Russ squadrons into combat!
A: We hear Heavy Flamer sponsons on Leman Russ is the way forwards....
Q: Nothing on transportation rules?? #sadface
A: There is a whole new article coming for the transports real soon!
Crimson wrote: OK. Fluff-wise existing Marines can be 'upgraded' into Primaris. This is good.
How is that good?
it would be stupid to have awesome masters of the carft of war come out... who were born in a tube last week
Eh, why? Normal space marines start out as good as a space marine.
what? no they dont; in the fluff there are decades of hazing, ritual, initiation, deployment in the scouts, devestators before a marine even qualifies for a tactical squad, then hudnreds of years and battles before they get to be a veteran. Epic characters in the marine legions dont roll up going "Sup, names Donnald, Im hella good with an axe, and I got some ideas about battle strategy"
Well, to be fair, in those other articles, I don't think they mentioned those units in the preview (I didn't read the Chaos Daemons one, so maybe they did talk about them there). However, for Tau, they highlighted one of the more iconic units in their dex to showcase that rule. Possibly because Tau suits -don't like- being in CC. Whereas things like Scourges, DP's, Tzeentchian Daemon stuff, aren't nearly as fethed when that happens to them.
I can see both sides to the argument here, but I'm actually leaning a bit more to the side of the keyword "Fly" handing XV-8's this ability, which will very likely affect drones as well, since we can see they also have that keyword.
I'm not. I just don't see "Fly" allowing you to act normally after Falling Back. Falling Back has a penalty, and I can't imagine all the things that are currently Jump/Jet Pack Infantry, Jetbikes, Skimmers, or Flying Monstrous Creatures/Flyers getting a free out from Combat to keep shooting or to set up new charges that easily.
Crimson wrote: OK. Fluff-wise existing Marines can be 'upgraded' into Primaris. This is good.
How is that good?
I thought people were worried about the existing space marines being phase out. Doesn't this pretty much guarantee that? Surely if a space marine can just be upgraded to a primaris marine, there would be no reason for the chapter masters and named characters to go through that procedure. I was thinking the existence of the named characters would be one of the few things preventing the elimination of "normal" marines.
EXACTLY! Space Marines will be completely phased out in 2-3 years. Called it! This is the mechanism for which they can justify not selling Space Marine kits anymore.
2018
SM player: Hey where did all my kits go?
GW: Oh all marines have been converted into Primaris Marines now! Isn't that awesome? Here you can have the privelege of buying 5 of these AMAZING models for only $60!
Crimson wrote: OK. Fluff-wise existing Marines can be 'upgraded' into Primaris. This is good.
How is that good?
I thought people were worried about the existing space marines being phase out. Doesn't this pretty much guarantee that? Surely if a space marine can just be upgraded to a primaris marine, there would be no reason for the chapter masters and named characters to go through that procedure. I was thinking the existence of the named characters would be one of the few things preventing the elimination of "normal" marines.
EXACTLY! Space Marines will be completely phased out in 2-3 years. Called it! This is the mechanism for which they can justify not selling Space Marine kits anymore.
2108
SM player: Hey where did all my kits go?
GW: Oh all marines have been converted into Primaris Marines now! Isn't that awesome? Here you can have the privelege of buying 5 of these AMAZING models for only $60!
Transport "Capacity" simply indicates the # of models a transport can carry! Confirmed on Live Stream just now; Characters can catch rides, as long as there's room.
Crimson wrote: OK. Fluff-wise existing Marines can be 'upgraded' into Primaris. This is good.
Thank God. So special characters will become "Primaris", and in 3-4 years all the Space Marines (In the fluff) will be probably Primaris, and if all the Space Marines are Primaris Marines, they are just Space Marines again, because you have not "Secondaris" old Marines to compare, so the status quo becomes again the same as before, just with Marines being more powerfull in the fluff, bigger in models, and more powerfull in rules.
The rules for vehicles are so good and so bad at the same time! I love the simplification. The vehicle rules for 7th and before were so messy, but fluffy. It makes sense on a charge, but the idea of a vehicle, especially a tracked one, scooting around bumping into soldiers who are "stuck" in CC clubbing it with lasgun buts is ridiculous.
If infantry can at least move away at no penalty in the move phase I can wrap my head around it. Like a lot of the AoS rules, it's fine mechanically but just doesn't make sense narratively. What a 180 from what we have now.
Crimson wrote: OK. Fluff-wise existing Marines can be 'upgraded' into Primaris. This is good.
How is that good?
I thought people were worried about the existing space marines being phase out. Doesn't this pretty much guarantee that? Surely if a space marine can just be upgraded to a primaris marine, there would be no reason for the chapter masters and named characters to go through that procedure. I was thinking the existence of the named characters would be one of the few things preventing the elimination of "normal" marines.
EXACTLY! Space Marines will be completely phased out in 2-3 years. Called it! This is the mechanism for which they can justify not selling Space Marine kits anymore.
2108
SM player: Hey where did all my kits go?
GW: Oh all marines have been converted into Primaris Marines now! Isn't that awesome? Here you can have the privelege of buying 5 of these AMAZING models for only $60!
If it's a hundred years then that price bump is reasonable (almost). You'd get a 300-400% increase in regular prizes between now and then due to inflation.
Crimson wrote: OK. Fluff-wise existing Marines can be 'upgraded' into Primaris. This is good.
How is that good?
I thought people were worried about the existing space marines being phase out. Doesn't this pretty much guarantee that? Surely if a space marine can just be upgraded to a primaris marine, there would be no reason for the chapter masters and named characters to go through that procedure. I was thinking the existence of the named characters would be one of the few things preventing the elimination of "normal" marines.
EXACTLY! Space Marines will be completely phased out in 2-3 years. Called it! This is the mechanism for which they can justify not selling Space Marine kits anymore.
2108
SM player: Hey where did all my kits go?
GW: Oh all marines have been converted into Primaris Marines now! Isn't that awesome? Here you can have the privelege of buying 5 of these AMAZING models for only $60!
If that happens in the year 2108, then I think Marines will be safe for a while
dosiere wrote: The rules for vehicles are so good and so bad at the same time! I love the simplification. The vehicle rules for 7th and before were so messy, but fluffy. It makes sense on a charge, but the idea of a vehicle, especially a tracked one, scooting around bumping into soldiers who are "stuck" in CC clubbing it with lasgun buts is ridiculous.
If infantry can at least move away at no penalty in the move phase I can wrap my head around it. Like a lot of the AoS rules, it's fine mechanically but just doesn't make sense narratively. What a 180 from what we have now.
I like it, makes sense. I never liked how vehicles weren't a threat to infantry that are swarming it. Someone could easily slip under a track, get their arm pinched in a turret run, etc.
They're not necessarily clubbing the tank (or rather stabbing it with their bayonets, this is the Guard after all), but instead sticking their guns in weak spots, stuffing grenades into gun barrels etc.
> Primaris Marines can be made from preexisting Marines. > Blood Angel Primaris Marines are still affected by Red Thirst (and potentially Black Rage). > Mk IX Armour is a mystery. What happened to it? They aren't telling us (yet). > Guilliman *might* make some changes to the Codex Astartes. > Primaris Marines are more resilient to Chaos, but can potentially be corrupted by chaos still . > More Primarchs will return (a cowled one, so Mortarion most likely).
> Consolidating into Combat. > Power Fists and the like are -1 To Hit. > You can either pick psychic powers from the chart or roll (like in Age of Sigmar). > Perils of the Warp cuases Mortal Wounds. > There's no amry specific Detachments - only army specific stratagems. Basic Detachments apparently cover everything already. > Imperial Fist stratagem can make them better at shooting. White Scars can us a stratgem to Hit & Run. > Factions can also use their Command Points before deployment to change how their army is constructed (?). > Unqiue Strategems are based on main Keywords in your Detachments. > Tactical Reserves is NOT supersceded by any army rules. > Characters can still travel in tranports with other units. > Transports can carry multiple units. > What can be transported is based on Keywords (like Infantry). > How to keep characters safe: Almost all Command Squads have rules that allows them to intercept wounds from characters. > Drop Pods: they and the units they contain must be over 9" away from enemies when deployed. > Grav hasn't neccerssarily be toned down, but it should still be balanced. > Invulnerable saves work basically the same as they do now. > Many armies have abilities that allows them to save wounds after Armour or Invulnerable saves (Dark Eldar get Power From Pain, Disgustingly Resilient for Nurgle Daemons). These saves occur after damage, so if an attack causes 5 damage you need to make 5 seperate secondary saves. > Defender decides casualties - no longer directional. > Primaris Marines and normal Marines tend to have different functions (Tacticals vs Intercessor are used as an example). > Mix between totally new psychic powers and adaptation of pre-existing and classic powers (though they may function differently). > Terminators are going to feel like Terminators. > Many close combat units are now faster and deadlier than before, apparently.
> They will collect feedback through Facebook and eventually through the Warhammer Community site where everyone can vote on it. Also feedback through events and Twitch.tv. > GW will still be involved with the tournament scene, especially with major tournaments. Apparently they're going to be involved more. > They will continue to playtest the game post-release, both for Matched and Narrative standpoints.
Well, to be fair, in those other articles, I don't think they mentioned those units in the preview (I didn't read the Chaos Daemons one, so maybe they did talk about them there). However, for Tau, they highlighted one of the more iconic units in their dex to showcase that rule. Possibly because Tau suits -don't like- being in CC. Whereas things like Scourges, DP's, Tzeentchian Daemon stuff, aren't nearly as fethed when that happens to them.
I can see both sides to the argument here, but I'm actually leaning a bit more to the side of the keyword "Fly" handing XV-8's this ability, which will very likely affect drones as well, since we can see they also have that keyword.
I'm not. I just don't see "Fly" allowing you to act normally after Falling Back. Falling Back has a penalty, and I can't imagine all the things that are currently Jump/Jet Pack Infantry, Jetbikes, Skimmers, or Flying Monstrous Creatures/Flyers getting a free out from Combat to keep shooting or to set up new charges that easily.
Not 'seeing it' =/= not being in the game. And for all we know, things that currently are classified as Fliers - FMC's, may have a different bespoke rule that governs that particular movement.
But, you could easily be correct, and that there's another interaction we just haven't seen yet that allows crisis suits that special ability. But based on the wording of the article, and the fact that they specifically mentioned the bespoke rule 'Fly' as what lets them do that, it's easy to make the correlation between that rule, and the ability.
Lasguns may be out of luck vs a landraider, but a 30 dude platoon will sweep an annihilation barge off the field in one turn with FRFSRF even at long range. Hard to see how light vehicles prosper in this environment. Vehicles assaulting - not sure. It appears that vehicles will have NO SPECIAL RULES WHAT SO EVER. So that means they can be easily trapped by infantry, for example. Looks like Tianamon square, all day, every day.
It'd be great if we could get more details regarding combat consolidation. Are we sure that isn't just referring to the pile in rules we already knew about?
> Primaris Marines can be made from preexisting Marines.
> Blood Angel Primaris Marines are still affected by Red Thirst (and potentially Black Rage).
> Mk IX Armour is a mystery. What happened to it? They aren't telling us (yet).
> Guilliman *might* make some changes to the Codex Astartes.
> Primaris Marines are more resilient to Chaos, but can potentially be corrupted by chaos still .
> More Primarchs will return (a cowled one, so Mortarion most likely).
> Consolidating into Combat.
> Power Fists and the like are -1 To Hit.
> You can either pick psychic powers from the chart or roll (like in Age of Sigmar).
> Perils of the Warp cuases Mortal Wounds.
> There's no amry specific Detachments - only army specific stratagems. Basic Detachments apparently cover everything already.
> Imperial Fist stratagem can make them better at shooting. White Scars can us a stratgem to Hit & Run.
> Factions can also use their Command Points before deployment to change how their army is constructed (?).
> Unqiue Strategems are based on main Keywords in your Detachments.
> Tactical Reserves is NOT supersceded by any army rules.
> Characters can still travel in tranports with other units.
> Transports can carry multiple units.
> What can be transported is based on Keywords (like Infantry).
> How to keep characters safe: Almost all Command Squads have rules that allows them to intercept wounds from characters.
> Drop Pods: they and the units they contain must be over 9" away from enemies when deployed.
> Grav hasn't neccerssarily be toned down, but it should still be balanced.
> Invulnerable saves work basically the same as they do now.
> Many armies have abilities that allows them to save wounds after Armour or Invulnerable saves (Dark Eldar get Power From Pain, Disgustingly Resilient for Nurgle Daemons). These saves occur after damage, so if an attack causes 5 damage you need to make 5 seperate secondary saves.
> Defender decides casualties - no longer directional.
> Primaris Marines and normal Marines tend to have different functions (Tacticals vs Intercessor are used as an example).
> Mix between totally new psychic powers and adaptation of pre-existing and classic powers (though they may function differently).
> Terminators are going to feel like Terminators.
> They will collect feedback through Facebook and eventually through the Warhammer Community site where everyone can vote on it. Also feedback through events and Twitch.tv.
> GW will still be involved with the tournament scene, especially with major tournaments. Apparently they're going to be involved more.
> They will continue to playtest the game post-release, both for Matched and Narrative standpoints.
That actually addresses my concern about Primaris marines: If it's a gene therapy booster shot then it ceases to devalue regular marines because they can just take their shots.
Also on a related note, that kinda means that chaos primaris will be about the moment a chapter with the tech defects then gets a visit from Bile.
kestral wrote: Lasguns may be out of luck vs a landraider, but a 30 dude platoon will sweep an annihilation barge off the field in one turn with FRFSRF even at long range. Hard to see how light vehicles prosper in this environment. Vehicles assaulting - not sure. It appears that vehicles will have NO SPECIAL RULES WHAT SO EVER. So that means they can be easily trapped by infantry, for example. Looks like Tianamon square, all day, every day.
If you've dumped an order into a 30 man blob squad to simply remove ONE Anni-Barge, then the Necron player is probably still ahead in that exchange...
kestral wrote: Lasguns may be out of luck vs a landraider, but a 30 dude platoon will sweep an annihilation barge off the field in one turn with FRFSRF even at long range. Hard to see how light vehicles prosper in this environment. Vehicles assaulting - not sure. It appears that vehicles will have NO SPECIAL RULES WHAT SO EVER. So that means they can be easily trapped by infantry, for example. Looks like Tianamon square, all day, every day.
If you've dumped an order into a 30 man blob squad to simply remove ONE Anni-Barge, then the Necron player is probably still ahead in that exchange...
I love the sudden, insane, fear of the humble guardsman that hasn't stopped since 8th news dropped. So much over reacting.
changemod wrote: That actually addresses my concern about Primaris marines: If it's a gene therapy booster shot then it ceases to devalue regular marines because they can just take their shots.
Also on a related note, that kinda means that chaos primaris will be about the moment a chapter with the tech defects then gets a visit from Bile.
You know what? The "shot" was really bothering me until you phrased it that way!
Crimson wrote: OK. Fluff-wise existing Marines can be 'upgraded' into Primaris. This is good.
How is that good?
I thought people were worried about the existing space marines being phase out. Doesn't this pretty much guarantee that? Surely if a space marine can just be upgraded to a primaris marine, there would be no reason for the chapter masters and named characters to go through that procedure. I was thinking the existence of the named characters would be one of the few things preventing the elimination of "normal" marines.
At this point, I think it is better to have regular marine being phased out than to have two completely distinct kinds of marines
> Primaris Marines can be made from preexisting Marines.
> Blood Angel Primaris Marines are still affected by Red Thirst (and potentially Black Rage).
> Mk IX Armour is a mystery. What happened to it? They aren't telling us (yet).
> Guilliman *might* make some changes to the Codex Astartes.
> Primaris Marines are more resilient to Chaos, but can potentially be corrupted by chaos still .
> More Primarchs will return (a cowled one, so Mortarion most likely).
> Consolidating into Combat.
> Power Fists and the like are -1 To Hit.
> You can either pick psychic powers from the chart or roll (like in Age of Sigmar).
> Perils of the Warp cuases Mortal Wounds.
> There's no amry specific Detachments - only army specific stratagems. Basic Detachments apparently cover everything already.
> Imperial Fist stratagem can make them better at shooting. White Scars can us a stratgem to Hit & Run.
> Factions can also use their Command Points before deployment to change how their army is constructed (?).
> Unqiue Strategems are based on main Keywords in your Detachments.
> Tactical Reserves is NOT supersceded by any army rules.
> Characters can still travel in tranports with other units.
> Transports can carry multiple units.
> What can be transported is based on Keywords (like Infantry).
> How to keep characters safe: Almost all Command Squads have rules that allows them to intercept wounds from characters.
> Drop Pods: they and the units they contain must be over 9" away from enemies when deployed.
> Grav hasn't neccerssarily be toned down, but it should still be balanced.
> Invulnerable saves work basically the same as they do now.
> Many armies have abilities that allows them to save wounds after Armour or Invulnerable saves (Dark Eldar get Power From Pain, Disgustingly Resilient for Nurgle Daemons). These saves occur after damage, so if an attack causes 5 damage you need to make 5 seperate secondary saves.
> Defender decides casualties - no longer directional.
> Primaris Marines and normal Marines tend to have different functions (Tacticals vs Intercessor are used as an example).
> Mix between totally new psychic powers and adaptation of pre-existing and classic powers (though they may function differently).
> Terminators are going to feel like Terminators.
> They will collect feedback through Facebook and eventually through the Warhammer Community site where everyone can vote on it. Also feedback through events and Twitch.tv.
> GW will still be involved with the tournament scene, especially with major tournaments. Apparently they're going to be involved more.
> They will continue to playtest the game post-release, both for Matched and Narrative standpoints.
> Pete Foley does, indeed, thin his paints.
I don't think I missed anything.
EDIT: Fixing spelling errors.
You missed vehicles locked in close combat can't shoot. Melee armies are faster and do more damage.
I'm stoked that consolidation into combats is a thing again. And glad to hear that command squads and their like still perform the same basic function as before - shielding the commander from attacks, if in a slightly different manner. And the best part - "Terminators are going to feel like Terminators". My GKT army waits in anticipation...
> Primaris Marines can be made from preexisting Marines.
> Blood Angel Primaris Marines are still affected by Red Thirst (and potentially Black Rage).
> Mk IX Armour is a mystery. What happened to it? They aren't telling us (yet).
> Guilliman *might* make some changes to the Codex Astartes.
> Primaris Marines are more resilient to Chaos, but can potentially be corrupted by chaos still .
> More Primarchs will return (a cowled one, so Mortarion most likely).
> Consolidating into Combat.
> Power Fists and the like are -1 To Hit.
> You can either pick psychic powers from the chart or roll (like in Age of Sigmar).
> Perils of the Warp cuases Mortal Wounds.
> There's no amry specific Detachments - only army specific stratagems. Basic Detachments apparently cover everything already.
> Imperial Fist stratagem can make them better at shooting. White Scars can us a stratgem to Hit & Run.
> Factions can also use their Command Points before deployment to change how their army is constructed (?).
> Unqiue Strategems are based on main Keywords in your Detachments.
> Tactical Reserves is NOT supersceded by any army rules.
> Characters can still travel in tranports with other units.
> Transports can carry multiple units.
> What can be transported is based on Keywords (like Infantry).
> How to keep characters safe: Almost all Command Squads have rules that allows them to intercept wounds from characters.
> Drop Pods: they and the units they contain must be over 9" away from enemies when deployed.
> Grav hasn't neccerssarily be toned down, but it should still be balanced.
> Invulnerable saves work basically the same as they do now.
> Many armies have abilities that allows them to save wounds after Armour or Invulnerable saves (Dark Eldar get Power From Pain, Disgustingly Resilient for Nurgle Daemons). These saves occur after damage, so if an attack causes 5 damage you need to make 5 seperate secondary saves.
> Defender decides casualties - no longer directional.
> Primaris Marines and normal Marines tend to have different functions (Tacticals vs Intercessor are used as an example).
> Mix between totally new psychic powers and adaptation of pre-existing and classic powers (though they may function differently).
> Terminators are going to feel like Terminators.
> They will collect feedback through Facebook and eventually through the Warhammer Community site where everyone can vote on it. Also feedback through events and Twitch.tv.
> GW will still be involved with the tournament scene, especially with major tournaments. Apparently they're going to be involved more.
> They will continue to playtest the game post-release, both for Matched and Narrative standpoints.
Well, to be fair, in those other articles, I don't think they mentioned those units in the preview (I didn't read the Chaos Daemons one, so maybe they did talk about them there). However, for Tau, they highlighted one of the more iconic units in their dex to showcase that rule. Possibly because Tau suits -don't like- being in CC. Whereas things like Scourges, DP's, Tzeentchian Daemon stuff, aren't nearly as fethed when that happens to them.
I can see both sides to the argument here, but I'm actually leaning a bit more to the side of the keyword "Fly" handing XV-8's this ability, which will very likely affect drones as well, since we can see they also have that keyword.
I'm not. I just don't see "Fly" allowing you to act normally after Falling Back. Falling Back has a penalty, and I can't imagine all the things that are currently Jump/Jet Pack Infantry, Jetbikes, Skimmers, or Flying Monstrous Creatures/Flyers getting a free out from Combat to keep shooting or to set up new charges that easily.
Not 'seeing it' =/= not being in the game. And for all we know, things that currently are classified as Fliers - FMC's, may have a different bespoke rule that governs that particular movement.
But, you could easily be correct, and that there's another interaction we just haven't seen yet that allows crisis suits that special ability. But based on the wording of the article, and the fact that they specifically mentioned the bespoke rule 'Fly' as what lets them do that, it's easy to make the correlation between that rule, and the ability.
"Fly" isn't a bespoke rule.
It's a keyword.
We saw that with the Sniper Drone, where it's listed under "Keyword" rather than like the Dark Eldar Wyches' bespoke rule that makes it so you have to roll off to Fall Back.
> Primaris Marines can be made from preexisting Marines.
> Blood Angel Primaris Marines are still affected by Red Thirst (and potentially Black Rage).
> Mk IX Armour is a mystery. What happened to it? They aren't telling us (yet).
> Guilliman *might* make some changes to the Codex Astartes.
> Primaris Marines are more resilient to Chaos, but can potentially be corrupted by chaos still .
> More Primarchs will return (a cowled one, so Mortarion most likely).
> Consolidating into Combat.
> Power Fists and the like are -1 To Hit.
> You can either pick psychic powers from the chart or roll (like in Age of Sigmar).
> Perils of the Warp cuases Mortal Wounds.
> There's no amry specific Detachments - only army specific stratagems. Basic Detachments apparently cover everything already.
> Imperial Fist stratagem can make them better at shooting. White Scars can us a stratgem to Hit & Run.
> Factions can also use their Command Points before deployment to change how their army is constructed (?).
> Unqiue Strategems are based on main Keywords in your Detachments.
> Tactical Reserves is NOT supersceded by any army rules.
> Characters can still travel in tranports with other units.
> Transports can carry multiple units.
> What can be transported is based on Keywords (like Infantry).
> How to keep characters safe: Almost all Command Squads have rules that allows them to intercept wounds from characters.
> Drop Pods: they and the units they contain must be over 9" away from enemies when deployed.
> Grav hasn't neccerssarily be toned down, but it should still be balanced.
> Invulnerable saves work basically the same as they do now.
> Many armies have abilities that allows them to save wounds after Armour or Invulnerable saves (Dark Eldar get Power From Pain, Disgustingly Resilient for Nurgle Daemons). These saves occur after damage, so if an attack causes 5 damage you need to make 5 seperate secondary saves.
> Defender decides casualties - no longer directional.
> Primaris Marines and normal Marines tend to have different functions (Tacticals vs Intercessor are used as an example).
> Mix between totally new psychic powers and adaptation of pre-existing and classic powers (though they may function differently).
> Terminators are going to feel like Terminators.
> They will collect feedback through Facebook and eventually through the Warhammer Community site where everyone can vote on it. Also feedback through events and Twitch.tv.
> GW will still be involved with the tournament scene, especially with major tournaments. Apparently they're going to be involved more.
> They will continue to playtest the game post-release, both for Matched and Narrative standpoints.
> Pete Foley does, indeed, thin his paints.
I don't think I missed anything.
EDIT: Fixing spelling errors.
You missed vehicles locked in close combat can't shoot. Melee armies are faster and do more damage.
I didn't include that first bit because the vehicle article already covered that when it said they shoot like other units.
And they've mentioned the second point a few times before, but I probably should have included it, yeah.
Not gonna lie, I am totally okay with them not making any more generic marine kits. THERE I SAID IT. That line of models is so saturated it doesn't need anything else. After the Primaris Marines I would like them to take that energy and focus on getting other factions up to code like some eldar aspects(although that is a tough one given how unique they all are, Maybe scorpion fire dragon could double up but that is about it.......I suppose they could come up with some 5 man hybrid kits for banshees and scorpions that make two units....)
The line is already past capacity IMO, I cant think of any new units that really add value at this point. We can leave that to FW.
However with Primaris Marines, especially if they fulfill a seperate role then it is actually a meaningful addition and models that I actually would be excited to paint and buy instead of my 10th rhino, or 7th drop pod that I have just for completion sake......
As long as the regular marines are not invalidated RULES wise I am 100% cool with this new direction.
In regards to terminators we already know that they have two wounds and most of the things that completely bypassed their armor provide at least a 6+ now before cover.
For me most of the problems that marines and other related armies had was that they had a specialist in with non-specialists with no way to divide the fire. That is one of the big things that made eldar so powerful: everyone of their units was specialized.
Split fire takes care of that problem and really opens up the options for unit builds. Especially with the removal of the all or nothing AP system and the repointing of heavy and special weapons... Honestly I am SOOOO excited that all of those bits I held on to for so long might actually go on models!!
If anything this is even more of a reason to bring command squads.
To me, with a few exceptions (Ravenwing and Deathwing Cmd Squads ) command squads always felt a little underwhelming when you could just lump your librarian in with a tactical squad.
Now, if you want your character to survive it seems almost common sense to bring them!
I like this very much both from a crunch and fluff perspective!
On consolidanting into combat: does it mean a unit ending a combat can consolidate into a new combat (with a unit not in combat) or just in another combat occuring nearby?
the former is a very dangerous proposition to my Tau
Vector Strike wrote: On consolidanting into combat: does it mean a unit ending a combat can consolidate into a new combat (with a unit not in combat) or just in another combat occuring nearby?
the former is a very dangerous proposition to my Tau
Makes always jumping away not as easy of a decision huh?
However they might be talking about the fact that when you activate the unit they can move three inches and if you are able to bring units you didnt charge into combat they now count as engaged.
Might need to have them clarify if that refers to the initial consolidation or the end of combat consolidation(if such a thing remains)
From what they said it very much sounded like the former.
Their example was using the consolidation move to charge into a nearby unit of Devastators to prevent them from shooting their heavy weapons in their next turn (either through locking them or forcing them to Fall Back).
Crimson wrote: OK. Fluff-wise existing Marines can be 'upgraded' into Primaris. This is good.
How is that good?
I thought people were worried about the existing space marines being phase out. Doesn't this pretty much guarantee that? Surely if a space marine can just be upgraded to a primaris marine, there would be no reason for the chapter masters and named characters to go through that procedure. I was thinking the existence of the named characters would be one of the few things preventing the elimination of "normal" marines.
At this point the eventual phasing out of normal marines is given. This way at least we get to keep to get the existing named characters and histories of the old chapters.
The more I read about the new edition the more I think I might actually be able to learn it. The changes to vehicles really make them easier to deal with, less confusion etc. I can't wait to see the datasheet for blight drones, I finally might get motivated to buy one or two. I have a feeling the upcoming plastic type might be too cartoony or busy looking though.
Thank God. So special characters will become "Primaris", and in 3-4 years all the Space Marines (In the fluff) will be probably Primaris, and if all the Space Marines are Primaris Marines, they are just Space Marines again, because you have not "Secondaris" old Marines to compare, so the status quo becomes again the same as before, just with Marines being more powerfull in the fluff, bigger in models, and more powerfull in rules.
(Or at least thats my theory)
I'm pretty certain that this is exactly what happens.
I truly hope the Primaris Marine doesn't become the standard. I have an entire Iron Hands army where every single infantry model is converted with bionic bits and Iron Hands shoulder pads. It took a lot of time and money to do this. I am not doing it again. If the Primaris and various offshoots are new special units, GW will still get my money and I will still probably pick up a few infantry kits here and there of the old space marines. If Primaris is the new basic infantry, I probably won't buy anymore space marines.
kestral wrote: Lasguns may be out of luck vs a landraider, but a 30 dude platoon will sweep an annihilation barge off the field in one turn with FRFSRF even at long range. Hard to see how light vehicles prosper in this environment. Vehicles assaulting - not sure. It appears that vehicles will have NO SPECIAL RULES WHAT SO EVER. So that means they can be easily trapped by infantry, for example. Looks like Tianamon square, all day, every day.
Huh? 30 Guardsmen with FRFSRF equals 60 shots at long range or 120 shots at short range. Guardsmen presumably still need a 4+ to-hit in shooting. That means you're averaging 30 or 60 hits depending on range. Lasguns are Strength 3, Annihilation Barges are Toughness 6, meaning the Lasguns need 6s to-wound because the Strength is half of the Toughness. You're looking at 5 or 10 Wounds on average depending on range. The Annihilation Barge has a 4+ save, so it will lose 2-3 or 5 Wounds depending on range. It has 8 total Wounds.
How on earth did you come to the conclusion you did? All of these "but lasguns can kill this efficiently now" arguments have zero basis in reality.
docdoom77 wrote: I am so stoked that they confirmed defender chooses casualties.
Casualty removal is soooo bad in 7th.
It kinda made sense that things would die from the front when getting shot from the front. but realistically all it did was put special characters wayyy in the back and that looks lame. i love this change. also wonder if snipers can chose their targets too. i know they can for characters but special weapon sniping is important yo.
Median Trace wrote: I truly hope the Primaris Marine doesn't become the standard. I have an entire Iron Hands army where every single infantry model is converted with bionic bits and Iron Hands shoulder pads. It took a lot of time and money to do this. I am not doing it again. If the Primaris and various offshoots are new special units, GW will still get my money and I will still probably pick up a few infantry kits here and there of the old space marines. If Primaris is the new basic infantry, I probably won't buy anymore space marines.
They are functionally the same. you might be able to add like one unit with a bunch of CC weapons if a CC focused unit exists but it wont downgrade anything for the rest of the old marines. or if characters / chapter masters can be upgraded you might want to upgrade them for that extra wound and attack.
they are not stupid overpowered at all (so far) they are like sternguard with kraken rounds and how often do you see people taking a bunch of those.
I must say though, it's a small downer that there's no faction-specific detachments, however if the basic Detachments + using Command Points to modify them covers all the current detachments, then it won't matter too much.
The two major problems with directional casualties were that it screwed over your average assault army and it was part of the ridiculous wound allocation shenanigans people played. I'm so glad characters can't join units for that reason, 6th/7th Edition style death stars are one of the worst things to ever happen to 40K, and I was around in the Nob Biker days.
docdoom77 wrote: I am so stoked that they confirmed defender chooses casualties.
Casualty removal is soooo bad in 7th.
It kinda made sense that things would die from the front when getting shot from the front. but realistically all it did was put special characters wayyy in the back and that looks lame. i love this change. also wonder if snipers can chose their targets too. i know they can for characters but special weapon sniping is important yo.
Sniping special weapons is cool, but I can totally see another guardsman scooping up a meltagun after its original user gets shot while if a Primaris Psyker gets sniped that's a different situation.
docdoom77 wrote: I am so stoked that they confirmed defender chooses casualties.
Casualty removal is soooo bad in 7th.
It kinda made sense that things would die from the front when getting shot from the front. but realistically all it did was put special characters wayyy in the back and that looks lame. i love this change. also wonder if snipers can chose their targets too. i know they can for characters but special weapon sniping is important yo.
Sniping special weapons is cool, but I can totally see another guardsman scooping up a meltagun after its original user gets shot while if a Primaris Psyker gets sniped that's a different situation.
i imagine that is whats happening when getting shot from the front.
Median Trace wrote: I truly hope the Primaris Marine doesn't become the standard. I have an entire Iron Hands army where every single infantry model is converted with bionic bits and Iron Hands shoulder pads. It took a lot of time and money to do this. I am not doing it again. If the Primaris and various offshoots are new special units, GW will still get my money and I will still probably pick up a few infantry kits here and there of the old space marines. If Primaris is the new basic infantry, I probably won't buy anymore space marines.
I hear where you're coming from, but sense this change is mostly in the fluff, it's pretty simple for you to keep your existing models and just say
"Yeah, my Iron Hands have been taking their booster shots"
Problems solved.
I myself will probably leave things as they are, unless they start making Primaris kits with different weaponry or more comparable with normal marine rules, I'll stick with my existing dangles.
Median Trace wrote: I truly hope the Primaris Marine doesn't become the standard. I have an entire Iron Hands army where every single infantry model is converted with bionic bits and Iron Hands shoulder pads. It took a lot of time and money to do this. I am not doing it again. If the Primaris and various offshoots are new special units, GW will still get my money and I will still probably pick up a few infantry kits here and there of the old space marines. If Primaris is the new basic infantry, I probably won't buy anymore space marines.
I hear where you're coming from, but sense this change is mostly in the fluff, it's pretty simple for you to keep your existing models and just say
"Yeah, my Iron Hands have been taking their booster shots"
Problems solved.
I myself will probably leave things as they are, unless they start making Primaris kits with different weaponry or more comparable with normal marine rules, I'll stick with my existing dangles.
Iron Hands will likely just come up with new augmentation options to make themselves tall enough to wear the new Power Armour instead of relying on augmenting their geneseed since they're all "THE FLESH IS WEAK" about that kind of thing.
Just read through the recently released section on vehicles.
They weren't too specific, but it sounds like vehicles will treat melee combat the same as other non-vehicle units. The only thing that worries me about this, is that if they do handle melee in the same way infantry do, that means that in order to break from combat they would have to give up a turn of shooting.
If that is the case, that could be quite rough for my Russes, one tank in a squadron gets charged and the entire three-tank unit has to give up shooting to back up.
Of course I usually bubblewrap my tanks with infantry to prevent them from getting punched, but still.
I'm kind of hoping that vehicles can withdraw from melee without penalty to sum this up.
kestral wrote: Lasguns may be out of luck vs a landraider, but a 30 dude platoon will sweep an annihilation barge off the field in one turn with FRFSRF even at long range. Hard to see how light vehicles prosper in this environment. Vehicles assaulting - not sure. It appears that vehicles will have NO SPECIAL RULES WHAT SO EVER. So that means they can be easily trapped by infantry, for example. Looks like Tianamon square, all day, every day.
If you've dumped an order into a 30 man blob squad to simply remove ONE Anni-Barge, then the Necron player is probably still ahead in that exchange...
I love the sudden, insane, fear of the humble guardsman that hasn't stopped since 8th news dropped. So much over reacting.
@Video Q&A:
Much as expected, big buff for melee with consolidating into combat again (so much for shooting reigning supreme, heh). Sounds more balanced than in 3rd/4th edition too if you can only use it to engage and lock a unit in melee without swinging at them, so no 1 turn slaughterhouse where a unit can murder several units in a row. Also looks like a good justification for the overwatch buffs. Also really like the "Power Fists/Hammers are -1 to hit" change, fluffy and makes them much more worthwhile on characters (you basically never picked them on independent characters unless you could get a 3+ or better inv.-save to tank hits.
Cothonian wrote: Just read through the recently released section on vehicles.
They weren't too specific, but it sounds like vehicles will treat melee combat the same as other non-vehicle units. The only thing that worries me about this, is that if they do handle melee in the same way infantry do, that means that in order to break from combat they would have to give up a turn of shooting.
If that is the case, that could be quite rough for my Russes, one tank in a squadron gets charged and the entire three-tank unit has to give up shooting to back up.
Of course I usually bubblewrap my tanks with infantry to prevent them from getting punched, but still.
I'm kind of hoping that vehicles can withdraw from melee without penalty to sum this up.
Hopefully lumbering behemoth will do some fun things.
I am guessing that the Vehicle Keyword will have something special in regards to combats. For some reason I remember reading that vehicles can leave combat without penalty at some point, will try and see if I can find it.
Lobukia wrote: To tell the truth, I hope they do remove small marines in 9E+. Then I can field all my current marines as "counts as" Primarus
Yeah, seriously doubt that GW will officially state "lol, you can't use any of your old, smaller Marines from now on, they are now illegal, go buy Primaris", rather than "you can still use your old models!". Sure some tournament organizers might make a stink because true LoS and all that, but shouldn't be a problem in any friendly games and most tournaments.
I do feel a bit better about the Primaris Marines now. I guess I could be patient and give GW the chance (I'm still calling them Adeptus Restartes, though ). I mean, they have managed to turn AoS into a decent setting.
So if existing Marines can be upgraded and the creation process is being shared out, will there be Primaris versions of the existing squad types? Or will all post upgrade Astartes be reorganized into the new Primaris squads?
streetsamurai wrote: At this point I think it is pretty much a given. I can't see them keeping two range of marines(one slightly bigger than the other) for a lot of time
The current scale and armour marks could find a home in the HH and any other "historical" 40k settings that GW decide to do. But I'd imagine your right about the kits as they currently are getting gradually phased out.
Leth wrote: I am guessing that the Vehicle Keyword will have something special in regards to combats. For some reason I remember reading that vehicles can leave combat without penalty at some point, will try and see if I can find it.
Pretty sure they specifically mentioned a tank not being able to shoot if they withdrew in the Q&A
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: That and I'd be genuinely surprised if they ditch the current Marines...
Really????
At this point I think it is pretty much a given. I can't see them keeping two range of marines(one slightly bigger than the other) for a lot of time
Or they just give them about as much stuff the custodies has and call it a day.
they would have to replace pretty much EVERYTHING Marine and thats quite a big investment
so much so that if they were willing to go full adeptus restartes then it would be a very very very long process.
at the least untill the newest marine injection molds started to go bad which is going to take a while.
GoatboyBeta wrote: So if existing Marines can be upgraded and the creation process is being shared out, will there be Primaris versions of the existing squad types? Or will all post upgrade Astartes be reorganized into the new Primaris squads?
good chance that girlyman is going to rewrite the codex. and the new elite of elite will probably work a lot more like 30k marines since that is what he was used to. (maybe)
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: That and I'd be genuinely surprised if they ditch the current Marines...
Really????
At this point I think it is pretty much a given. I can't see them keeping two range of marines(one slightly bigger than the other) for a lot of time
Because a good percent of the cost of marines has already been spent. Everything else is gravy at this point, there is no reason to discontinue a plastic line until it is no longer profitable(See tomb kings). In addition there is still going to be a high demand for marines, it is just now you have OPTIONS and variety. You think everyone new is going to go straight to Primus? Nope and I believe that 8th provides the opportunity for the hobby to grow by leaps and bounds
Anything else they develop is going to cost much more than using the same casting moulds.
I am really looking forward to using Power Fists again. Pedro Kantor has one, one of my Captain has one, and I am probably going to stick one on some of my Assault Sergeants. A -1 to hit isn't the end of the world, certainly a lot better than striking last(if I get to strike at all). My Crimson Fists, Blood Angels, and Deathwatch will all be happy. Heavy Thunder Hammers!
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: That and I'd be genuinely surprised if they ditch the current Marines...
Really????
At this point I think it is pretty much a given. I can't see them keeping two range of marines(one slightly bigger than the other) for a lot of time
Moulds are cut. The range is cohesive and complete. Primaris Maureens are an addition to the current range. Not a competitor. Not a replacement. Just new. Something to get even those who consider their Astartes army complete spending on the shinynew (compare to yet another Tactical Squad recut).
GoatboyBeta wrote: So if existing Marines can be upgraded and the creation process is being shared out, will there be Primaris versions of the existing squad types? Or will all post upgrade Astartes be reorganized into the new Primaris squads?
Yeah, that's the weird bit. The stated rationale for Primaris squads being limited to single weapon type was that they were not so widely trained as old marines, but if old marines can be turned into Primaris, that rationale no longer applies...
casvalremdeikun wrote: I am really looking forward to using Power Fists again. Pedro Kantor has one, one of my Captain has one, and I am probably going to stick one on some of my Assault Sergeants. A -1 to hit isn't the end of the world, certainly a lot better than striking last(if I get to strike at all). My Crimson Fists, Blood Angels, and Deathwatch will all be happy. Heavy Thunder Hammers!
I've got a bunch of metal IG characters with power fists, and now they seem like less of a cruel joke.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I am really looking forward to using Power Fists again. Pedro Kantor has one, one of my Captain has one, and I am probably going to stick one on some of my Assault Sergeants. A -1 to hit isn't the end of the world, certainly a lot better than striking last(if I get to strike at all). My Crimson Fists, Blood Angels, and Deathwatch will all be happy. Heavy Thunder Hammers!
me too i'v muddled through 2+ editions keeping the faith, literally all my chaos asp champs have power fists.. hidden and don't fight last! their day has come at last!
You will note his answer to drop pods seems to indicate any time you come in from a tactical reserve you have to be at least 9" away from an opponent. As he goes ahead and even states coming out of a drop pod will put you 9" away.
That would be consistent with all reserve deployments in AoS.
GoatboyBeta wrote: So if existing Marines can be upgraded and the creation process is being shared out, will there be Primaris versions of the existing squad types? Or will all post upgrade Astartes be reorganized into the new Primaris squads?
Yeah, that's the weird bit. The stated rationale for Primaris squads being limited to single weapon type was that they were not so widely trained as old marines, but if old marines can be turned into Primaris, that rationale no longer applies...
I see it more as a way to reconcile ire about the "replacement" of old marines.
If you want to run a Primaris only chapter, you ruun their rules and squad arrangements.
If you want your old chapter by and large, you say they got their shots so they're not invalidated, but run them as they were.
Nah Man Pichu wrote: I'm a little worried about how killy TH/SS Terminators just became.
Any thoughts on how they may moderate this suddenly much more powerful unit?
edit: Killier than they already were.
-1 WS for using Thunderhammers, and only 2 attacks with no bonus for charging. Oh, and they're M5. The only thing that got better is that they don't go "last" and have an extra wound.
GoatboyBeta wrote: So if existing Marines can be upgraded and the creation process is being shared out, will there be Primaris versions of the existing squad types? Or will all post upgrade Astartes be reorganized into the new Primaris squads?
Yeah, that's the weird bit. The stated rationale for Primaris squads being limited to single weapon type was that they were not so widely trained as old marines, but if old marines can be turned into Primaris, that rationale no longer applies...
Probably the upgrade process of old marines will be something "expensive" and that can't be donne in mase, so it will be reserved for special characters, etc...
Youn wrote: You will note his answer to drop pods seems to indicate any time you come in from a tactical reserve you have to be at least 9" away from an opponent. As he goes ahead and even states coming out of a drop pod will put you 9" away.
That would be consistent with all reserve deployments in AoS.
for those who missed he also said all drop pod armies in matched play will not all allowed to be in reserve! so i'm guessing ye gonna have to deploy some open as weird as that will seem... guessing all drop pod armies are a thing of the past
Maybe during deployment drop pods not in reserve will be allowed to setup outside of the normal deployment zone? Seems like that would be fluffy without allowing null-deploy. The initial drop pod landings just happened right before the first turn of the game.
"Any Primarchs returning?"
"Well... there might be a cowled one on the way soon..."
Or, you know, the Lion. The dude who's legion all wear hoodies? I'm sure when he wakes up they'll hand him an STC Hoodlum-pattern Hoodie.
We pretty much know Mortarion is coming anyway (his scythe is seen in the Death Guard video and there was a leaked image that the scythe matched up with).
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: That and I'd be genuinely surprised if they ditch the current Marines...
Really????
At this point I think it is pretty much a given. I can't see them keeping two range of marines(one slightly bigger than the other) for a lot of time
Or they just give them about as much stuff the custodies has and call it a day.
they would have to replace pretty much EVERYTHING Marine and thats quite a big investment
so much so that if they were willing to go full adeptus restartes then it would be a very very very long process.
at the least untill the newest marine injection molds started to go bad which is going to take a while.
GoatboyBeta wrote: So if existing Marines can be upgraded and the creation process is being shared out, will there be Primaris versions of the existing squad types? Or will all post upgrade Astartes be reorganized into the new Primaris squads?
good chance that girlyman is going to rewrite the codex. and the new elite of elite will probably work a lot more like 30k marines since that is what he was used to. (maybe)
I think you are missing the point that a lot of us see this as a reboot. They have no need to replace everything from astartes to primaris in exact form and function. They are resetting space marines to take them in a different direction. Which means they are not 1 to 1'ing every old unit to a new scale.
Nah Man Pichu wrote: I'm a little worried about how killy TH/SS Terminators just became.
Any thoughts on how they may moderate this suddenly much more powerful unit?
edit: Killier than they already were.
-1 WS for using Thunderhammers, and only 2 attacks with no bonus for charging. Oh, and they're M5. The only thing that got better is that they don't go "last" and have an extra wound.
Possible points bump is possible I guess.
dunno about a points bump then again we dont know anything about points.
i for one am excited to charge out of a land raider full of THSS terminators and knock some sense into some people
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: That and I'd be genuinely surprised if they ditch the current Marines...
Really????
At this point I think it is pretty much a given. I can't see them keeping two range of marines(one slightly bigger than the other) for a lot of time
Or they just give them about as much stuff the custodies has and call it a day.
they would have to replace pretty much EVERYTHING Marine and thats quite a big investment
so much so that if they were willing to go full adeptus restartes then it would be a very very very long process.
at the least untill the newest marine injection molds started to go bad which is going to take a while.
GoatboyBeta wrote: So if existing Marines can be upgraded and the creation process is being shared out, will there be Primaris versions of the existing squad types? Or will all post upgrade Astartes be reorganized into the new Primaris squads?
good chance that girlyman is going to rewrite the codex. and the new elite of elite will probably work a lot more like 30k marines since that is what he was used to. (maybe)
Custodes only have one kit. we already know that there will be numerous kits of numarines, most of them being direct port from the old marine range (dreadnought, tanks, assault marines)
"Any Primarchs returning?"
"Well... there might be a cowled one on the way soon..."
Or, you know, the Lion. The dude who's legion all wear hoodies? I'm sure when he wakes up they'll hand him an STC Hoodlum-pattern Hoodie.
We pretty much know Mortarion is coming anyway (his scythe is seen in the Death Guard video and there was a leaked image that the scythe matched up with).
Exactly. But we'll have to go through the usual Dakka process of "it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, maybe it's a pigeon!"
Custodes only have one kit. we already know that there will be numerous kits of numarines, most of them being direct port from the old marine range (dreadnought, tanks, assault marines)
hmm was miss remembering that the extra kits was actually from FW
ether way im expecting them to just be a supplement. No on knows exactly whats going to happen but it would be foolish of GW just trash all there old marine kits. at least not until the last mold degrades beyond use.
I think you are missing the point that a lot of us see this as a reboot. They have no need to replace everything from astartes to primaris in exact form and function. They are resetting space marines to take them in a different direction. Which means they are not 1 to 1'ing every old unit to a new scale.
thats the thing though i dont see it as a full reboot. definitely progressing and adding to the story. maybe in warhammer 50k all old marines will be gone but i highly doubt it will happen anytime in the next decade
Youn wrote: You will note his answer to drop pods seems to indicate any time you come in from a tactical reserve you have to be at least 9" away from an opponent. As he goes ahead and even states coming out of a drop pod will put you 9" away.
That would be consistent with all reserve deployments in AoS.
for those who missed he also said all drop pod armies in matched play will not all allowed to be in reserve! so i'm guessing ye gonna have to deploy some open as weird as that will seem... guessing all drop pod armies are a thing of the past
Clearly they dropped in front of the enemy's advancing lines right before the battle started?
I swear, I'm getting the impression these Warhammer community articles are being written by the same "person" that writes the Guardsman Uplifting Primer articles. I detect the same tone of sarcasm and the Commisar with the gun pointed at the author's head - "don't reveal that, Sonny"; "Are you properly jubilent about this change, Imperial citizen?"
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: That and I'd be genuinely surprised if they ditch the current Marines...
Really????
At this point I think it is pretty much a given. I can't see them keeping two range of marines(one slightly bigger than the other) for a lot of time
Or they just give them about as much stuff the custodies has and call it a day.
they would have to replace pretty much EVERYTHING Marine and thats quite a big investment
so much so that if they were willing to go full adeptus restartes then it would be a very very very long process.
at the least untill the newest marine injection molds started to go bad which is going to take a while.
GoatboyBeta wrote: So if existing Marines can be upgraded and the creation process is being shared out, will there be Primaris versions of the existing squad types? Or will all post upgrade Astartes be reorganized into the new Primaris squads?
good chance that girlyman is going to rewrite the codex. and the new elite of elite will probably work a lot more like 30k marines since that is what he was used to. (maybe)
Custodes only have one kit. we already know that there will be numerous kits of numarines, most of them being direct port from the old marine range (dreadnought, tanks, assault marines)
Grey Knights got a full army out of how many kits again?
I could see the Primaris Marines boxes being the same.
"Any Primarchs returning?" "Well... there might be a cowled one on the way soon..."
Or, you know, the Lion. The dude who's legion all wear hoodies? I'm sure when he wakes up they'll hand him an STC Hoodlum-pattern Hoodie.
We pretty much know Mortarion is coming anyway (his scythe is seen in the Death Guard video and there was a leaked image that the scythe matched up with).
Exactly. But we'll have to go through the usual Dakka process of "it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, maybe it's a pigeon!"
Lol, indeed. Anybody that think the next Primarch is not Mortarion is lying to himself . The writing is on the wall.
"Any Primarchs returning?"
"Well... there might be a cowled one on the way soon..."
Or, you know, the Lion. The dude who's legion all wear hoodies? I'm sure when he wakes up they'll hand him an STC Hoodlum-pattern Hoodie.
We pretty much know Mortarion is coming anyway (his scythe is seen in the Death Guard video and there was a leaked image that the scythe matched up with).
Exactly. But we'll have to go through the usual Dakka process of "it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, maybe it's a pigeon!"
Lol, indeed. Anybody that think the next Primarch is not Mortarion is desillusionnal. The writing ison the wall.
But he said pigeon! Clearly that means Sanguinius is next! /s
Custodes only have one kit. we already know that there will be numerous kits of numarines, most of them being direct port from the old marine range (dreadnought, tanks, assault marines)
hmm was miss remembering that the extra kits was actually from FW
ether way im expecting them to just be a supplement. No on knows exactly whats going to happen but it would be foolish of GW just trash all there old marine kits. at least not until the last mold degrades beyond use.
GW has replaced numerous times perfectly functionnal marine kits with new ones.
"Any Primarchs returning?"
"Well... there might be a cowled one on the way soon..."
Or, you know, the Lion. The dude who's legion all wear hoodies? I'm sure when he wakes up they'll hand him an STC Hoodlum-pattern Hoodie.
We pretty much know Mortarion is coming anyway (his scythe is seen in the Death Guard video and there was a leaked image that the scythe matched up with).
Exactly. But we'll have to go through the usual Dakka process of "it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, maybe it's a pigeon!"
Accompanied by how much it sucks that they are doing pigeons and not ducks, how poorly written the fluff for pigeons is/will be (not like the good old days!) and how the immanent pigeons have broken the game
casvalremdeikun wrote: I am really looking forward to using Power Fists again. Pedro Kantor has one, one of my Captain has one, and I am probably going to stick one on some of my Assault Sergeants. A -1 to hit isn't the end of the world, certainly a lot better than striking last(if I get to strike at all). My Crimson Fists, Blood Angels, and Deathwatch will all be happy. Heavy Thunder Hammers!
Was having a conversation with a friend of mine who runs DA sprinkled w/ DW. He was raging that P. Fists were worthless now.
Him: Man, P. Fists are -garbage-. -1 to hit w/ them??! What a load of !
Me: How so? They apparently still buff strength, do multiple wounds and have a rend of like -3 and strike first if you charge. What's not to like..?
H: I only hit on 4+ w/ them instead of 3+!!
M: You already hit on a 4+ against 90% of the armies in the game. Only against my Tau did you ever hit me on a 3+.
Grey Knights got a full army out of how many kits again?
I could see the Primaris Marines boxes being the same.
Primaris with Bolters (confirmed) - Intecessor Squad
Primaris with Plasma Gun (seen) - ? Squad
That's at least two unit choices (Troops and Heavy Support?) from one kit.
Jump Pack Primaris (from the boxed set pictures) are probably another two unit kit - I'd guess one unit with Swords and Pistols and a different unit with Flamers.
The introduction article mentioned a Dreadnought, so there's your Elite and maybe a Heavy Support Mortis style option.
Custodes only have one kit. we already know that there will be numerous kits of numarines, most of them being direct port from the old marine range (dreadnought, tanks, assault marines)
If we get a new Land raider out of this I would be a happy camper(like the design but the kit is a pain in the ass) and I'm really looking forward to the new models. But having the ability to upgrade existing Marines to Primaris does IMO make this a less interesting development to the background.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I am really looking forward to using Power Fists again. Pedro Kantor has one, one of my Captain has one, and I am probably going to stick one on some of my Assault Sergeants. A -1 to hit isn't the end of the world, certainly a lot better than striking last(if I get to strike at all). My Crimson Fists, Blood Angels, and Deathwatch will all be happy. Heavy Thunder Hammers!
Was having a conversation with a friend of mine who runs DA sprinkled w/ DW. He was raging that P. Fists were worthless now.
Him: Man, P. Fists are -garbage-. -1 to hit w/ them??! What a load of !
Me: How so? They apparently still buff strength, do multiple wounds and have a rend of like -3 and strike first if you charge. What's not to like..?
H: I only hit on 4+ w/ them instead of 3+!!
M: You already hit on a 4+ against 90% of the armies in the game. Only against my Tau did you ever hit me on a 3+.
H: ...well.. yeah, I guess they're ok..
In fact, I think DW may be a thing again... That's good!
"Any Primarchs returning?"
"Well... there might be a cowled one on the way soon..."
Or, you know, the Lion. The dude who's legion all wear hoodies? I'm sure when he wakes up they'll hand him an STC Hoodlum-pattern Hoodie.
We pretty much know Mortarion is coming anyway (his scythe is seen in the Death Guard video and there was a leaked image that the scythe matched up with).
Exactly. But we'll have to go through the usual Dakka process of "it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, maybe it's a pigeon!"
They could ALSO be talking about the Lion. He's the most likely/obvious choice for next Imperial Primarch. Just because we know Mortarion is coming doesn't mean he's the only one with a cowl.
Custodes only have one kit. we already know that there will be numerous kits of numarines, most of them being direct port from the old marine range (dreadnought, tanks, assault marines)
If we get a new Land raider out of this I would be a happy camper(like the design but the kit is a pain in the ass) and I'm really looking forward to the new models. But having the ability to upgrade existing Marines to Primaris does IMO make this a less interesting development to the background.
Forge World are selling out of Land Raider doors so it's possible.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I am really looking forward to using Power Fists again. Pedro Kantor has one, one of my Captain has one, and I am probably going to stick one on some of my Assault Sergeants. A -1 to hit isn't the end of the world, certainly a lot better than striking last(if I get to strike at all). My Crimson Fists, Blood Angels, and Deathwatch will all be happy. Heavy Thunder Hammers!
Was having a conversation with a friend of mine who runs DA sprinkled w/ DW. He was raging that P. Fists were worthless now.
Him: Man, P. Fists are -garbage-. -1 to hit w/ them??! What a load of !
Me: How so? They apparently still buff strength, do multiple wounds and have a rend of like -3 and strike first if you charge. What's not to like..?
H: I only hit on 4+ w/ them instead of 3+!!
M: You already hit on a 4+ against 90% of the armies in the game. Only against my Tau did you ever hit me on a 3+.
H: ...well.. yeah, I guess they're ok..
You have to be seriously reactionnary to think that PF are useless because of the -1 to hit, since we don't know much about them beside that.
The talk of currant marines being "upgraded" to primaris gives me hope for their fall to chaos happening sooner, or at least more frequently.
They'll have the same faults and personalities as before. Additionally you have that piece lore that the Alpha Legion have sleeper agents within recruiting worlds. Wouldn't be hard for them to activate post-enhancement surely?
Grey Knights got a full army out of how many kits again?
I could see the Primaris Marines boxes being the same.
Primaris with Bolters (confirmed) - Intecessor Squad
Primaris with Plasma Gun (seen) - ? Squad
That's at least two unit choices (Troops and Heavy Support?) from one kit.
Jump Pack Primaris (from the boxed set pictures) are probably another two unit kit - I'd guess one unit with Swords and Pistols and a different unit with Flamers.
The introduction article mentioned a Dreadnought, so there's your Elite and maybe a Heavy Support Mortis style option.
That just leaves an HQ kit to have a full FoC.
Depends on how they do the jump packs. I mean Grey Knights got their Strike Squad, Purgation, Purifier and Interceptor squads out of a single kit. We may see a release like the original GK one: 5 to a box with all the options to make multiple units.
Especially if the units are locked in at 5 models each.
Grey Knights got a full army out of how many kits again?
I could see the Primaris Marines boxes being the same.
Primaris with Bolters (confirmed) - Intecessor Squad
Primaris with Plasma Gun (seen) - ? Squad
That's at least two unit choices (Troops and Heavy Support?) from one kit.
Jump Pack Primaris (from the boxed set pictures) are probably another two unit kit - I'd guess one unit with Swords and Pistols and a different unit with Flamers.
The introduction article mentioned a Dreadnought, so there's your Elite and maybe a Heavy Support Mortis style option.
That just leaves an HQ kit to have a full FoC.
Vs Grey Knight Paladin box set (5 models), Grey Knight Terminator Box set (5 models), Grey Knight Interceptor/Strike/Purifier/Purgation box set (10 models), 1 Dreadknight kit, 5 character models and then the universal kits; 1 stormraven kit, 1 dreadnought kit, 1 razorback, 2 landraider kits.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I am really looking forward to using Power Fists again. Pedro Kantor has one, one of my Captain has one, and I am probably going to stick one on some of my Assault Sergeants. A -1 to hit isn't the end of the world, certainly a lot better than striking last(if I get to strike at all). My Crimson Fists, Blood Angels, and Deathwatch will all be happy. Heavy Thunder Hammers!
Was having a conversation with a friend of mine who runs DA sprinkled w/ DW. He was raging that P. Fists were worthless now.
Him: Man, P. Fists are -garbage-. -1 to hit w/ them??! What a load of !
Me: How so? They apparently still buff strength, do multiple wounds and have a rend of like -3 and strike first if you charge. What's not to like..?
H: I only hit on 4+ w/ them instead of 3+!!
M: You already hit on a 4+ against 90% of the armies in the game. Only against my Tau did you ever hit me on a 3+.
H: ...well.. yeah, I guess they're ok..
Every Marine player needs to experience an Ork shooting phase from the dice rolling side.
backlash13 wrote: The talk of currant marines being "upgraded" to primaris gives me hope for their fall to chaos happening sooner, or at least more frequently.
They'll have the same faults and personalities as before. Additionally you have that piece lore that the Alpha Legion have sleeper agents within recruiting worlds. Wouldn't be hard for them to activate post-enhancement surely?
Activating their recruits post becoming Astartes was how Alpha Legion killed off the Crimson Consuls. I imagine adding a couple new squiggly bits to the Marines won't change that.
Custodes only have one kit. we already know that there will be numerous kits of numarines, most of them being direct port from the old marine range (dreadnought, tanks, assault marines)
hmm was miss remembering that the extra kits was actually from FW
ether way im expecting them to just be a supplement. No on knows exactly whats going to happen but it would be foolish of GW just trash all there old marine kits. at least not until the last mold degrades beyond use.
GW has replaced numerous times perfectly functionnal marine kits with new ones.
Anybody else really love the models but wtf with the fluff? I was ok with the primaris marine idea but when Phil confirmed that they can just "upgrade" existing marines to primaris I was really sad. Why not just make a new space marine kit and write something else for the story arc. It just seems really forced so it didnt seem like GW is going to phase out all your marines. Oh but wait they did anyways and really did a job on 20+ years of lore...
Oh man that one would require some creative fluff writing. I just picture the normal marines staging a scenario where they are desperate to goad the legion of the damned into intervening while every bush contains an apothecary holding a comically large syringe ready to pounce on them and give them their medicine.
Custodes only have one kit. we already know that there will be numerous kits of numarines, most of them being direct port from the old marine range (dreadnought, tanks, assault marines)
hmm was miss remembering that the extra kits was actually from FW
ether way im expecting them to just be a supplement. No on knows exactly whats going to happen but it would be foolish of GW just trash all there old marine kits. at least not until the last mold degrades beyond use.
GW has replaced numerous times perfectly functionnal marine kits with new ones.
like?
tactical marine squads was pretty much replaced every 5-6 years iirc
gainsay wrote: Anybody else really love the models but wtf with the fluff? I was ok with the primaris marine idea but when Phil confirmed that they can just "upgrade" existing marines to primaris I was really sad. Why not just make a new space marine kit and write something else for the story arc. It just seems really forced so it didnt seem like GW is going to phase out all your marines. Oh but wait they did anyways and really did a job on 20+ years of lore...
Really? i honestly feel the other way
if they were brand new marines out of the vat then it would horrifically cheapen old marines. by making it a progression it doesn't degrade how awesome (in lore) marines actually are.
streetsamurai wrote: GW has replaced numerous times perfectly functionnal marine kits with new ones.
Each time they have is because of advances of technology and a degrading mold line.
Which is an infalsifiable argument, since technology is improving all the time.
I made TWO points about their timing. The molds we have aren't worn down to the point were replacing them would be a better solution than continuing to use/maintain them.
I wouldn't worry about Primaris models making a full replacement unless we reach the point where all the current options have a Primaris version.
streetsamurai wrote: GW has replaced numerous times perfectly functionnal marine kits with new ones.
Each time they have is because of advances of technology and a degrading mold line.
Which is an infalsifiable argument, since technology is improving all the time.
I made TWO points about their timing. The molds we have aren't worn down to the point were replacing them would be a better solution than continuing to use/maintain them.
I wouldn't worry about Primaris models making a full replacement unless we reach the point where all the current options have a Primaris version.
I think it would be detrimentsl in the long run, since it will increase tje number of SKU, and introduce a lot of confusion in new customers.
backlash13 wrote: The talk of currant marines being "upgraded" to primaris gives me hope for their fall to chaos happening sooner, or at least more frequently.
what would have really been spicy is if Guilliman tries to force these new test tube ultra marines onto the older legions and they give him the finger and really splitting the imperium apart.
tactical marine squads was pretty much replaced every 5-6 years iirc
5-6 years is a lot of time yo.
edit quote block
Not at all, at least, not when you compare them to prettu much all other kits, who take twice or thrice as long to get an update (if they ever get updated). And beside that, this argument is working against you, since most current marine kits are more than 5 or 6 yo, or near it
gainsay wrote: Anybody else really love the models but wtf with the fluff? I was ok with the primaris marine idea but when Phil confirmed that they can just "upgrade" existing marines to primaris I was really sad. Why not just make a new space marine kit and write something else for the story arc. It just seems really forced so it didnt seem like GW is going to phase out all your marines. Oh but wait they did anyways and really did a job on 20+ years of lore...
"Let me shove some squishy bits into you to make you better FOR THE EMPEROR!"
I'm sure it sounds better in the fluff that that though.
Oh man that one would require some creative fluff writing. I just picture the normal marines staging a scenario where they are desperate to goad the legion of the damned into intervening while every bush contains an apothecary holding a comically large syringe ready to pounce on them and give them their medicine.
Youn wrote: You will note his answer to drop pods seems to indicate any time you come in from a tactical reserve you have to be at least 9" away from an opponent. As he goes ahead and even states coming out of a drop pod will put you 9" away.
That would be consistent with all reserve deployments in AoS.
for those who missed he also said all drop pod armies in matched play will not all allowed to be in reserve! so i'm guessing ye gonna have to deploy some open as weird as that will seem... guessing all drop pod armies are a thing of the past
Expect Drop Pods to have a special rule allowing them to ignore the reserve limit. Because Slave Marines.
So, it is officially confirmed that armor facings are gone and there won't be anything to replace them. Not that I'm surprised seeing what unholy brainless abomination of an edition 8th is.
At this point it only seems fitting for GW to dumb bown and ruin their franchise even further.
Youn wrote: You will note his answer to drop pods seems to indicate any time you come in from a tactical reserve you have to be at least 9" away from an opponent. As he goes ahead and even states coming out of a drop pod will put you 9" away.
That would be consistent with all reserve deployments in AoS.
for those who missed he also said all drop pod armies in matched play will not all allowed to be in reserve! so i'm guessing ye gonna have to deploy some open as weird as that will seem... guessing all drop pod armies are a thing of the past
Expect Drop Pods to have a special rule allowing them to ignore the reserve limit. Because Slave Marines.
Not in Matched Play. The live FAQ said no exceptions.
Youn wrote: You will note his answer to drop pods seems to indicate any time you come in from a tactical reserve you have to be at least 9" away from an opponent. As he goes ahead and even states coming out of a drop pod will put you 9" away.
That would be consistent with all reserve deployments in AoS.
for those who missed he also said all drop pod armies in matched play will not all allowed to be in reserve! so i'm guessing ye gonna have to deploy some open as weird as that will seem... guessing all drop pod armies are a thing of the past
Expect Drop Pods to have a special rule allowing them to ignore the reserve limit. Because Slave Marines.
They apparently said in the Q&A that it applied to drop pods too.
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Liberal_Perturabo wrote: So, it is officially confirmed that armor facings are gone and there won't be anything to replace them. Not that I'm surprised seeing what unholy brainless abomination of an edition 8th is.
At this point it only seems fitting for GW to dumb bown and ruin their franchise even further.
Welcome to the thread! Boy that is some great input and criticism of a new edition we only have teasers of! I wish I had the heretical witch power of being able to see the future forsight that you do to see how stupid the new edition is going to be!
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: So, it is officially confirmed that armor facings are gone and there won't be anything to replace them. Not that I'm surprised seeing what unholy brainless abomination of an edition 8th is.
At this point it only seems fitting for GW to dumb bown and ruin their franchise even further.
Sorry dude - Bolt Action has armour facing, it's pretty good I hear...
Youn wrote: You will note his answer to drop pods seems to indicate any time you come in from a tactical reserve you have to be at least 9" away from an opponent. As he goes ahead and even states coming out of a drop pod will put you 9" away.
That would be consistent with all reserve deployments in AoS.
for those who missed he also said all drop pod armies in matched play will not all allowed to be in reserve! so i'm guessing ye gonna have to deploy some open as weird as that will seem... guessing all drop pod armies are a thing of the past
Expect Drop Pods to have a special rule allowing them to ignore the reserve limit. Because Slave Marines.
They apparently said in the Q&A that it applied to drop pods too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: So, it is officially confirmed that armor facings are gone and there won't be anything to replace them. Not that I'm surprised seeing what unholy brainless abomination of an edition 8th is.
At this point it only seems fitting for GW to dumb bown and ruin their franchise even further.
Welcome to the thread! Boy that is some great input and criticism of a new edition we only have teasers of! I wish I had the heretical witch power of being able to see the future forsight that you do to see how stupid the new edition is going to be!
To be honest, at this point, we have more than enough info to have a really good idea on how 8th will play
Ghaz wrote: Not in Matched Play. The live FAQ said no exceptions.
I kind of hope people can scatter them over the board as their deployment (Infiltrator style), but I can understand if they get forced into a deployment zone as well. I mean Marines slamming down in a wall of ceramite and fury in front of an approaching heretical menace and engaging them while the rest of the drop pods aim for the dispersed forces makes sense for me.
tactical marine squads was pretty much replaced every 5-6 years iirc
5-6 years is a lot of time yo.
edit quote block
Not at all, at least, not when you compare them to prettu much all other kits, who take twice or thrice as long to get an update (if they ever get updated). And beside that, this argument is working against you, since most current marine kits are more than 5 or 6 yo, or near it
dunno what to tell you mate. the last set was released around 2013-4. so it is getting close to 3-4 years. all of the chapter upgrade spuers are more recent as well. i highly doubt they would throw those under the bus as well. i for one am looking forward to seeing how they upgrade all the vehicle armory as those are pretty damn old.
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: So, it is officially confirmed that armor facings are gone and there won't be anything to replace them. Not that I'm surprised seeing what unholy brainless abomination of an edition 8th is.
At this point it only seems fitting for GW to dumb bown and ruin their franchise even further.
Bye Felicia.
Funny....ruining their franchise, yet it's doing better than it has in years and the hype is up for 8th. Glad you're not the one making calls.
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: So, it is officially confirmed that armor facings are gone and there won't be anything to replace them. Not that I'm surprised seeing what unholy brainless abomination of an edition 8th is.
At this point it only seems fitting for GW to dumb bown and ruin their franchise even further.
Welcome to the thread! Boy that is some great input and criticism of a new edition we only have teasers of! I wish I had the heretical witch power of being able to see the future forsight that you do to see how stupid the new edition is going to be!
To be honest, at this point, we have more than enough info to have a really good idea on how 8th will play
And enough to know that sacrificing technical accuracy for overall game balance is better.
Basically the "dumbing down" is a knee jerk reaction that is based on some idea that by reducing a single game concept somehow negates all the other changes to the game and the tactical choices they add (like Command Points, or multi-charging by using your transports as a mobile wall/battering ram to protect your squishy guys form Overwatch).
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: So, it is officially confirmed that armor facings are gone and there won't be anything to replace them. Not that I'm surprised seeing what unholy brainless abomination of an edition 8th is.
At this point it only seems fitting for GW to dumb bown and ruin their franchise even further.
You do know that most of the stuff that has armor values now would've had a toughness value in 2nd edition instead right? The vehicles that did have facings were waaaay different too.. Making something different isn't automatically making it inferior.
Ghaz wrote: Not in Matched Play. The live FAQ said no exceptions.
I kind of hope people can scatter them over the board as their deployment (Infiltrator style), but I can understand if they get forced into a deployment zone as well. I mean Marines slamming down in a wall of ceramite and fury in front of an approaching heretical menace and engaging them while the rest of the drop pods aim for the dispersed forces makes sense for me.
^^This.
We need to keep in mind that the battlefield the table represents, is usually just a smaller part of the larger war (generally speaking). Just because your deployment zone is a certain section of the table, doesn't necessarily mean that it's not the staging point for a full assault. Drop pods hurriedly dispatching a wall of troops into that area to hold the line while the remainder strike at strategic places in the enemy battle line sounds exactly like a marine strike force to me.
gainsay wrote: Anybody else really love the models but wtf with the fluff? I was ok with the primaris marine idea but when Phil confirmed that they can just "upgrade" existing marines to primaris I was really sad. Why not just make a new space marine kit and write something else for the story arc. It just seems really forced so it didnt seem like GW is going to phase out all your marines. Oh but wait they did anyways and really did a job on 20+ years of lore...
"Let me shove some squishy bits into you to make you better FOR THE EMPEROR!"
I'm sure it sounds better in the fluff that that though.
Oh man that one would require some creative fluff writing. I just picture the normal marines staging a scenario where they are desperate to goad the legion of the damned into intervening while every bush contains an apothecary holding a comically large syringe ready to pounce on them and give them their medicine.
Wibbly wobbly warp shenanigans.
Yea I figured that much, I think you might not find the situation I created as funny as I. I'd actually prefer the funny one, since it's hilarious and actually more pallet-able to be honest. the coincidence that the warp touches LotD with the exact benefit exactly when all the other marines are is just as ridiculous and again, not as entertaining
Dumbing down is an idea that stems from the idea that complicated rules mean more meaningful tactical play. I'm not sure I agree, I think the opposite is often true, because the more complex the rules the more winning relies on who has a better understanding of the rules than who plays better.
Nah Man Pichu wrote: If anything this is even more of a reason to bring command squads.
To me, with a few exceptions (Ravenwing and Deathwing Cmd Squads ) command squads always felt a little underwhelming when you could just lump your librarian in with a tactical squad.
Now, if you want your character to survive it seems almost common sense to bring them!
I like this very much both from a crunch and fluff perspective!
My Blood Angels Honor Guard says Hi!
My 5th Company Captain and/or Librarian, both of whom are jump pack equipped (as Sanguinius intended!), rarely take to the field without this honor guard flanking them.
Looking forward to this squad seeing even more use.
gainsay wrote: Anybody else really love the models but wtf with the fluff? I was ok with the primaris marine idea but when Phil confirmed that they can just "upgrade" existing marines to primaris I was really sad. Why not just make a new space marine kit and write something else for the story arc. It just seems really forced so it didnt seem like GW is going to phase out all your marines. Oh but wait they did anyways and really did a job on 20+ years of lore...
"Let me shove some squishy bits into you to make you better FOR THE EMPEROR!"
I'm sure it sounds better in the fluff that that though.
Oh man that one would require some creative fluff writing. I just picture the normal marines staging a scenario where they are desperate to goad the legion of the damned into intervening while every bush contains an apothecary holding a comically large syringe ready to pounce on them and give them their medicine.
Wibbly wobbly warp shenanigans.
Yea I figured that much, I think you might not find the situation I created as funny as I. I'd actually prefer the funny one, since it's hilarious and actually more pallet-able to be honest. the coincidence that the warp touches LotD with the exact benefit exactly when all the other marines are is just as ridiculous and again, not as entertaining
I don't know. I like saying "wibbly wobbly warp".
Hmmm... "Wibbly wobbly warp wackiness". There, now it's alliterative.
Breng77 wrote: Dumbing down is an idea that stems from the idea that complicated rules mean more meaningful tactical play. I'm not sure I agree, I think the opposite is often true, because the more complex the rules the more winning relies on who has a better understanding of the rules than who plays better.
I agree, not to be the guy that brings chess up again but it IS an example of a very simple game with staggering depth in strategy.
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: So, it is officially confirmed that armor facings are gone and there won't be anything to replace them. Not that I'm surprised seeing what unholy brainless abomination of an edition 8th is.
At this point it only seems fitting for GW to dumb bown and ruin their franchise even further.
Bye Felicia.
Funny....ruining their franchise, yet it's doing better than it has in years and the hype is up for 8th. Glad you're not the one making calls.
Breng77 wrote: Dumbing down is an idea that stems from the idea that complicated rules mean more meaningful tactical play. I'm not sure I agree, I think the opposite is often true, because the more complex the rules the more winning relies on who has a better understanding of the rules than who plays better.
I agree, not to be the guy that brings chess up again but it IS an example of a very simple game with staggering depth in strategy.
gainsay wrote: Anybody else really love the models but wtf with the fluff? I was ok with the primaris marine idea but when Phil confirmed that they can just "upgrade" existing marines to primaris I was really sad. Why not just make a new space marine kit and write something else for the story arc. It just seems really forced so it didnt seem like GW is going to phase out all your marines. Oh but wait they did anyways and really did a job on 20+ years of lore...
"Let me shove some squishy bits into you to make you better FOR THE EMPEROR!"
I'm sure it sounds better in the fluff that that though.
Oh man that one would require some creative fluff writing. I just picture the normal marines staging a scenario where they are desperate to goad the legion of the damned into intervening while every bush contains an apothecary holding a comically large syringe ready to pounce on them and give them their medicine.
Wibbly wobbly warp shenanigans.
Yea I figured that much, I think you might not find the situation I created as funny as I. I'd actually prefer the funny one, since it's hilarious and actually more pallet-able to be honest. the coincidence that the warp touches LotD with the exact benefit exactly when all the other marines are is just as ridiculous and again, not as entertaining
I don't know. I like saying "wibbly wobbly warp".
Hmmm... "Wibbly wobbly warp wackiness". There, now it's alliterative.
I mean you must like teeny, tiny, small shrimp then. I'd rather just say, the warp
I don't have many Blood Angels. Next week I was going to order enough to do a Demi Company. Not any more!
Looking at the BA upgrade sprue the only bits not usable on the spacecasts will be the bodys (assuming the hands stay the same size and you're ok with MK7 heads on MK10 armor). I sort of want to stick the Death Mask, chalice and backpack decoration on that commander guy because he isn't pimped enough for my tastes.
Or they'll release new upgrade sprues (Death Company?) and make nipple armor for the spacecasts which I want really badly.
Breng77 wrote: Dumbing down is an idea that stems from the idea that complicated rules mean more meaningful tactical play. I'm not sure I agree, I think the opposite is often true, because the more complex the rules the more winning relies on who has a better understanding of the rules than who plays better.
I agree, not to be the guy that brings chess up again but it IS an example of a very simple game with staggering depth in strategy.
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: So, it is officially confirmed that armor facings are gone and there won't be anything to replace them. Not that I'm surprised seeing what unholy brainless abomination of an edition 8th is.
At this point it only seems fitting for GW to dumb bown and ruin their franchise even further.
Sorry dude - Bolt Action has armour facing, it's pretty good I hear...
So it's ok for something to gut a system for no good purpose because there is another game with the sme system somewhere out there?
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: So, it is officially confirmed that armor facings are gone and there won't be anything to replace them. Not that I'm surprised seeing what unholy brainless abomination of an edition 8th is.
At this point it only seems fitting for GW to dumb bown and ruin their franchise even further.
Bye Felicia.
Funny....ruining their franchise, yet it's doing better than it has in years and the hype is up for 8th. Glad you're not the one making calls.
Something is hyped = something is good. Nice backwards logic you got there. Enjoying those no man's skies and ME: Andromedas?
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: So, it is officially confirmed that armor facings are gone and there won't be anything to replace them. Not that I'm surprised seeing what unholy brainless abomination of an edition 8th is.
At this point it only seems fitting for GW to dumb bown and ruin their franchise even further.
Sorry dude - Bolt Action has armour facing, it's pretty good I hear...
So it's ok for something to gut a system for no good purpose because there is another game with the sme system somewhere out there?
That wasn't what they were saying. They were saying that if that's the key thing you want in a game, there's a game for you. It's called Bolt Action.
Breng77 wrote: Dumbing down is an idea that stems from the idea that complicated rules mean more meaningful tactical play. I'm not sure I agree, I think the opposite is often true, because the more complex the rules the more winning relies on who has a better understanding of the rules than who plays better.
I agree, not to be the guy that brings chess up again but it IS an example of a very simple game with staggering depth in strategy.
I wonder if 100 years ago people where writing letters to Chess journals and ranting about how broken and OP the queen piece is and how it needs a nerf in the next edition of Chess.
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: So, it is officially confirmed that armor facings are gone and there won't be anything to replace them. Not that I'm surprised seeing what unholy brainless abomination of an edition 8th is.
At this point it only seems fitting for GW to dumb bown and ruin their franchise even further.
Sorry dude - Bolt Action has armour facing, it's pretty good I hear...
So it's ok for something to gut a system for no good purpose because there is another game with the sme system somewhere out there?
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: So, it is officially confirmed that armor facings are gone and there won't be anything to replace them. Not that I'm surprised seeing what unholy brainless abomination of an edition 8th is.
At this point it only seems fitting for GW to dumb bown and ruin their franchise even further.
Bye Felicia.
Funny....ruining their franchise, yet it's doing better than it has in years and the hype is up for 8th. Glad you're not the one making calls.
Something is hyped = something is good. Nice backwards logic you got there. Enjoying those no man's skies and ME: Andromedas?
Making assumptions that it was for no good purpose.
faceings was clunky and enduping causing a lot of bs arguments about figuring out side or front armor on oblong shaped models and in the end all it was was a waste of time, extra charts and an extra unit format that didnt need to be the way it was.
Breng77 wrote: Dumbing down is an idea that stems from the idea that complicated rules mean more meaningful tactical play. I'm not sure I agree, I think the opposite is often true, because the more complex the rules the more winning relies on who has a better understanding of the rules than who plays better.
I agree, not to be the guy that brings chess up again but it IS an example of a very simple game with staggering depth in strategy.
I wonder if 100 years ago people where writing letters to Chess journals and ranting about how broken and OP the queen piece is and how it needs a nerf in the next edition of Chess.
There are actual complaints that white is OP because it has the first move...
Breng77 wrote: Dumbing down is an idea that stems from the idea that complicated rules mean more meaningful tactical play. I'm not sure I agree, I think the opposite is often true, because the more complex the rules the more winning relies on who has a better understanding of the rules than who plays better.
I agree, not to be the guy that brings chess up again but it IS an example of a very simple game with staggering depth in strategy.
The problem with chess is that it only has one FOC. I want to use all six of my rooks but can only do so in Chess: Apocalypse.
Breng77 wrote: Dumbing down is an idea that stems from the idea that complicated rules mean more meaningful tactical play. I'm not sure I agree, I think the opposite is often true, because the more complex the rules the more winning relies on who has a better understanding of the rules than who plays better.
I agree, not to be the guy that brings chess up again but it IS an example of a very simple game with staggering depth in strategy.
The problem with chess is that it only has one FOC. I want to use all six of my rooks but can only do so in Chess: Apocalypse.
Better than the FOC in Checkers. It's a list full of a bunch of Boyz who only get to become a Boss if you reach the other side of the board.
godardc wrote: Thank you, Matt ! So, casualities aren't directionnal anymore ? Casualities are choosen by the owner ? It seems less tactical too, doesn't it ?
Less tactical for the attacker, yeah. However it should hopefully speed the game up a bit and stop the tedium of checking which model is a fraction of an inch closer.
godardc wrote: Thank you, Matt !
So, casualities aren't directionnal anymore ? Casualities are choosen by the owner ? It seems less tactical too, doesn't it ?
Actually there are tactical choices there. If your unit is going to be charged after being shot do you take the wounds off the front where your special wound might be sitting, or off the back? Off the front would increase the charge range needed, but cost you a much needed weapon for the squad. Pulling off the back saves the weapon but leaves you potentially inside of charge range.
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: So, it is officially confirmed that armor facings are gone and there won't be anything to replace them. Not that I'm surprised seeing what unholy brainless abomination of an edition 8th is. At this point it only seems fitting for GW to dumb bown and ruin their franchise even further.
Sorry dude - Bolt Action has armour facing, it's pretty good I hear...
So it's ok for something to gut a system for no good purpose because there is another game with the sme system somewhere out there?
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: So, it is officially confirmed that armor facings are gone and there won't be anything to replace them. Not that I'm surprised seeing what unholy brainless abomination of an edition 8th is. At this point it only seems fitting for GW to dumb bown and ruin their franchise even further.
Bye Felicia.
Funny....ruining their franchise, yet it's doing better than it has in years and the hype is up for 8th. Glad you're not the one making calls.
Something is hyped = something is good. Nice backwards logic you got there. Enjoying those no man's skies and ME: Andromedas?
Making assumptions that it was for no good purpose.
faceings was clunky and enduping causing a lot of bs arguments about figuring out side or front armor on oblong shaped models and in the end all it was was a waste of time, extra charts and an extra unit format that didnt need to be the way it was.
opponents are causing bs arguments, that's not the system's fault. Extra charts, really? Is memorising that armor goes from 10 to 14 is difficult for somebody? Is the game supposed to be by infants with no mental capacity? Excludigng the point of how dumb having no armor values is, they could have still done facings using toughness with like a penalty/buff if you are shooting from the side or rear. But nope, let's just throw the system out of the window, because less tactics is more fun!
godardc wrote: Thank you, Matt !
So, casualities aren't directionnal anymore ? Casualities are choosen by the owner ? It seems less tactical too, doesn't it ?
Agreed, I like directionnal causalties, even if it needed a few tweaks.
All in all, it seems like 8th edition will be about as tactical as current edition. Lot of dumbing down (IMO), but a couple of new real interesting mechanics that are tactical (stratagem especially)
godardc wrote: Thank you, Matt !
So, casualities aren't directionnal anymore ? Casualities are choosen by the owner ? It seems less tactical too, doesn't it ?
Actually there are tactical choices there. If your unit is going to be charged after being shot do you take the wounds off the front where your special wound might be sitting, or off the back? Off the front would increase the charge range needed, but cost you a much needed weapon for the squad. Pulling off the back saves the weapon but leaves you potentially inside of charge range.
7th was horrifically lopsided to attacks advantage. asides from some niche cases im glad power went a little more to the defender side with this and vehicles (hopefully) not getting instagibbed.
godardc wrote: Thank you, Matt !
So, casualities aren't directionnal anymore ? Casualities are choosen by the owner ? It seems less tactical too, doesn't it ?
Agreed, I like directionnal causalties, even if it needed a few tweaks.
"A few tweaks" being locking people into movement trays and pulling models off the side closest to the attacker....
godardc wrote: Thank you, Matt !
So, casualities aren't directionnal anymore ? Casualities are choosen by the owner ? It seems less tactical too, doesn't it ?
Not really, it simply disbands a rule that did nothing but add additional hassles to the shooting phase, on top of giving the finger to assault armies. Taking casualties from anywhere inside the unit represents the idea that other members of the unit will move in and fill the 'hole' left by the recently dead/incapacitated warrior. This way all shooting casualties work the same. You just pick your casualties out and move on. No more eyeballing to see which model was closest to the firer, or trying to pull models out of the middle of the squad if they were hit by an ordnance weapon, etc. That wasn't exactly 'tactical' either. Just an added level of complexity for no real benefit.
Breng77 wrote: Dumbing down is an idea that stems from the idea that complicated rules mean more meaningful tactical play. I'm not sure I agree, I think the opposite is often true, because the more complex the rules the more winning relies on who has a better understanding of the rules than who plays better.
I agree, not to be the guy that brings chess up again but it IS an example of a very simple game with staggering depth in strategy.
I wonder if 100 years ago people where writing letters to Chess journals and ranting about how broken and OP the queen piece is and how it needs a nerf in the next edition of Chess.
No, but you should have heard all of those checkers players complaining about how overpowered kings are...
opponents are causing bs arguments, that's not the system's fault.
Extra charts, really? Is memorising that armor goes from 10 to 14 is difficult for somebody? Is the game supposed to be by infants with no mental capacity?
Excludigng the point of how dumb having no armor values is, they could have still done facings using toughness with like a penalty if you are shooting from the side or rear. But nope, let's just throw the system out of the window, because less tactics is more fun!
You really think thats what im saying?
it is the systems fault for being loosy goosy with the concept allowing the gak situations to happen. same deal with all the abuse cases
Im not saying memorizing charts is hard. its not. but it IS having 2 different systems in a game and trying to balance both properly is a lot of extra work for basically no reward.
they decided the bloat was not worth trying to sift through so they rebuilt EVERYTHING from the ground up gak had to go and im glad they went that route.
Or they'll release new upgrade sprues (Death Company?) and make nipple armor for the spacecasts which I want really badly.
IIRC all the upgrade sprues so far have parts that will be incompatible with the mk-x armour(mostly the chest pieces). New versions would not surprise me at all. Hopefully GW will do more than the usual first founding chapters with the Primaris versions.
Breng77 wrote: Dumbing down is an idea that stems from the idea that complicated rules mean more meaningful tactical play. I'm not sure I agree, I think the opposite is often true, because the more complex the rules the more winning relies on who has a better understanding of the rules than who plays better.
I agree, not to be the guy that brings chess up again but it IS an example of a very simple game with staggering depth in strategy.
The problem with chess is that it only has one FOC. I want to use all six of my rooks but can only do so in Chess: Apocalypse.
And did you ever try to get a Narrative game? Freaking NO ONE played narrative!
godardc wrote: Thank you, Matt !
So, casualities aren't directionnal anymore ? Casualities are choosen by the owner ? It seems less tactical too, doesn't it ?
Not really, it simply disbands a rule that did nothing but add additional hassles to the shooting phase, on top of giving the finger to assault armies. Taking casualties from anywhere inside the unit represents the idea that other members of the unit will move in and fill the 'hole' left by the recently dead/incapacitated warrior. This way all shooting casualties work the same. You just pick your casualties out and move on. No more eyeballing to see which model was closest to the firer, or trying to pull models out of the middle of the squad if they were hit by an ordnance weapon, etc. That wasn't exactly 'tactical' either. Just an added level of complexity for no real benefit.
Wait... since when more choice to the player equals less tactical??
godardc wrote: Thank you, Matt !
So, casualities aren't directionnal anymore ? Casualities are choosen by the owner ? It seems less tactical too, doesn't it ?
Not really, it simply disbands a rule that did nothing but add additional hassles to the shooting phase, on top of giving the finger to assault armies. Taking casualties from anywhere inside the unit represents the idea that other members of the unit will move in and fill the 'hole' left by the recently dead/incapacitated warrior. This way all shooting casualties work the same. You just pick your casualties out and move on. No more eyeballing to see which model was closest to the firer, or trying to pull models out of the middle of the squad if they were hit by an ordnance weapon, etc. That wasn't exactly 'tactical' either. Just an added level of complexity for no real benefit.
Wait... since when more choice to the player equals less tactical??
You have more choices now as the defender. Before you had none, it was all on the attacker's side making you a passive participant.
godardc wrote: Thank you, Matt ! So, casualities aren't directionnal anymore ? Casualities are choosen by the owner ? It seems less tactical too, doesn't it ?
Not really, it simply disbands a rule that did nothing but add additional hassles to the shooting phase, on top of giving the finger to assault armies. Taking casualties from anywhere inside the unit represents the idea that other members of the unit will move in and fill the 'hole' left by the recently dead/incapacitated warrior. This way all shooting casualties work the same. You just pick your casualties out and move on. No more eyeballing to see which model was closest to the firer, or trying to pull models out of the middle of the squad if they were hit by an ordnance weapon, etc. That wasn't exactly 'tactical' either. Just an added level of complexity for no real benefit.
Wait... since when more choice to the player equals less tactical??
What choice did the defender have? They removed the closest models to the shooting unit, or the models closest to the blast template if it was an ordnance weapon. There was no choice involved, aside from the maybe 1 out of 100 games where you had two models exactly the same distance away from the firing model.
This way, you can pull models from the front if you are expecting a charge that turn, or pull models from the center if you have a squad large enough to cover two objectives or however you need to do it based on the needs of the squad that turn. No longer can your opponent just throw enough dice at you to kill a couple of models in the front that were just allowing you to grab an objective. Now they're going to have to really pour the fire into you in order to cause you to loose enough models possibly to do that. If anything, it can actually add some tactics into the game, especially for the defender, instead of just passively plucking the front models out of the squad for every failed save.
godardc wrote: Thank you, Matt ! So, casualities aren't directionnal anymore ? Casualities are choosen by the owner ? It seems less tactical too, doesn't it ?
Actually, that is a huge advantage for the owning player. Remember overflow wounds just kills a model quicker it doesn't overflow to the next model.
Example: Five man strike squad charge a pack of chaos terminators. They each swing twice and hit once each. A total of 4 wounds get through with a force weapons for 1, 1, 2, 2, wounds. Now, it's the chaos players turn to allocate out those wounds. The chaos player chooses to allocate out those wounds as 1,2,1,2. Then rolls the saves. If he fails all saves his 2 wound terminators take 1 wound then 2 wounds and dies, then the second one takes 1 wound and 2 wounds and dies.
The chaos player only loses two terminators instead of three on those wound because he gets to choose how those wounds are allocated.
You have more choices now as the defender. Before you had none, it was all on the attacker's side making you a passive participant.
Of course, it will also drive down the tactical importance of stuff like facing and positioning. It will also provide less significance to a well executed flank, meaning clever movement by the attacker is less rewarded.
On the other hand, I play IG, so I'm totally down for 5th edition style casualties again! How I long to once again have 10 wound meltaguns walking across the table.
godardc wrote: Thank you, Matt !
So, casualities aren't directionnal anymore ? Casualities are choosen by the owner ? It seems less tactical too, doesn't it ?
Actually, that is a huge advantage for the owning player. Remember overflow wounds just kills a model quicker it doesn't overflow to the next model.
Example:
Five man strike squad charge a pack of chaos terminators. They each swing twice and hit once each. A total of 4 wounds get through with a force weapons for 1, 1, 2, 2, wounds. Now, it's the chaos players turn to allocate out those wounds. The chaos player chooses to allocate out those wounds as 1,2,1,2. Then rolls the saves. If he fails all saves his 2 wound terminators take 1 wound then 2 wounds and dies, then the second one takes 1 wound and 2 wounds and dies.
The chaos player only loses two terminators instead of three on those wound because he gets to choose how those wounds are allocated.
Assuming they are porting over the wounding system like AOS
you have to kill of models that already have wounds on them first.
so you cant spread em around across your whole unit but instead need to kill off a full model until you use up all your unsaved wounds. no clue how this will work with units that may or may not have mixed stats if thats even going to happen.
I meant now you don't have to take care of positionning, where are your weapons and where is your sergeant, etc.
But you are right: the choice isn't reduced, indeed, it is different, but there is still some tactics here.
gainsay wrote: Anybody else really love the models but wtf with the fluff? I was ok with the primaris marine idea but when Phil confirmed that they can just "upgrade" existing marines to primaris I was really sad. Why not just make a new space marine kit and write something else for the story arc. It just seems really forced so it didnt seem like GW is going to phase out all your marines. Oh but wait they did anyways and really did a job on 20+ years of lore...
Really? i honestly feel the other way
if they were brand new marines out of the vat then it would horrifically cheapen old marines. by making it a progression it doesn't degrade how awesome (in lore) marines actually are.
Why not just make new marines on a larger scale tho? The justification they wrote is really stupid.
godardc wrote: Thank you, Matt !
So, casualities aren't directionnal anymore ? Casualities are choosen by the owner ? It seems less tactical too, doesn't it ?
Actually, that is a huge advantage for the owning player. Remember overflow wounds just kills a model quicker it doesn't overflow to the next model.
Example:
Five man strike squad charge a pack of chaos terminators. They each swing twice and hit once each. A total of 4 wounds get through with a force weapons for 1, 1, 2, 2, wounds. Now, it's the chaos players turn to allocate out those wounds. The chaos player chooses to allocate out those wounds as 1,2,1,2. Then rolls the saves. If he fails all saves his 2 wound terminators take 1 wound then 2 wounds and dies, then the second one takes 1 wound and 2 wounds and dies.
The chaos player only loses two terminators instead of three on those wound because he gets to choose how those wounds are allocated.
Assuming they are porting over the wounding system like AOS
you have to kill of models that already have wounds on them first.
so you cant spread em around across your whole unit but instead need to kill off a full model until you use up all your unsaved wounds. no clue how this will work with units that may or may not have mixed stats if thats even going to happen.
I did allocate those wounds to one model at a time. Watch, I take 4 wounds of 1, 1, 2, 2.
My first terminator will take one of the 1s. Rolls dice and fails. I allocated 1 wound to that terminator. Now, I look at the 1,2,2 left over. If I do the other 1 I could lose 3 terminators but if I choose to roll the 2 next. Then if I fail the save my already wounded terminator takes 2 more wounds and dies. Now, I have a 1, 2 left over. I as the owning player can choose the 1 again and then the 2. Because, I as the owner get to choose. I can overkill 2 terminators instead of kill 3 of them.
I did allocate those wounds to one model at a time. Watch, I take 4 wounds of 1, 1, 2, 2.
My first terminator will take one of the 1s. Rolls dice and fails. I allocated 1 wound to that terminator. Now, I look at the 1,2,2 left over. If I do the other 1 I could lose 3 terminators but if I choose to roll the 2 next. Then if I fail the save my already wounded terminator takes 2 more wounds and dies. Now, I have a 1, 2 left over. I as the owning player can choose the 1 again and then the 2. Because, I as the owner get to choose. I can overkill 2 terminators instead of kill 3 of them.
hmm right no spill over from strong shots. did they show examples of doing this in the FAQ? i cant watch it. so they are saying the shots are being allocated or the wound? (meaning do you allocate before saves or after saves)
gainsay wrote: Anybody else really love the models but wtf with the fluff? I was ok with the primaris marine idea but when Phil confirmed that they can just "upgrade" existing marines to primaris I was really sad. Why not just make a new space marine kit and write something else for the story arc. It just seems really forced so it didnt seem like GW is going to phase out all your marines. Oh but wait they did anyways and really did a job on 20+ years of lore...
Really? i honestly feel the other way
if they were brand new marines out of the vat then it would horrifically cheapen old marines. by making it a progression it doesn't degrade how awesome (in lore) marines actually are.
Why not just make new marines on a larger scale tho? The justification they wrote is really stupid.
they would have to re do EVERYTHING characters every box, probably every vehicle and upgrade pack to match. thats a metric ass ton of injection moulding metal. and that is expensive. making nu marines make sense in that they dont actually have to invest nearlly as much in redoing the line. it leaves them with options.
Youn wrote: No, they stated the owner gets their choice how they allocate wounds to their unit.
Hmmm gotta wait and see the whole wounding system. because if we are back to allocating one wound on one model at a time, terminators and numarines are going to be pretty strong with wound shenanigans. im hoping for some stipulations like allocate wounds on whatever model you want but you allocate all wounds to it till it dies then pick another one in some specific order (strongest to weakest) because no overkill spill over makes this complicated.
I did allocate those wounds to one model at a time. Watch, I take 4 wounds of 1, 1, 2, 2.
My first terminator will take one of the 1s. Rolls dice and fails. I allocated 1 wound to that terminator. Now, I look at the 1,2,2 left over. If I do the other 1 I could lose 3 terminators but if I choose to roll the 2 next. Then if I fail the save my already wounded terminator takes 2 more wounds and dies. Now, I have a 1, 2 left over. I as the owning player can choose the 1 again and then the 2. Because, I as the owner get to choose. I can overkill 2 terminators instead of kill 3 of them.
hmm right no spill over from strong shots. did they show examples of doing this in the FAQ? i cant watch it. so they are saying the shots are being allocated or the wound? (meaning do you allocate before saves or after saves)
Not sure if you played AOS or not but supposedly the wound system is identical.
gainsay wrote: Anybody else really love the models but wtf with the fluff? I was ok with the primaris marine idea but when Phil confirmed that they can just "upgrade" existing marines to primaris I was really sad. Why not just make a new space marine kit and write something else for the story arc. It just seems really forced so it didnt seem like GW is going to phase out all your marines. Oh but wait they did anyways and really did a job on 20+ years of lore...
Really? i honestly feel the other way
if they were brand new marines out of the vat then it would horrifically cheapen old marines. by making it a progression it doesn't degrade how awesome (in lore) marines actually are.
Why not just make new marines on a larger scale tho? The justification they wrote is really stupid.
Since they've made a point several times to say that some chapters have issues with the new Marines, I'm thinking there could be narrative reasons going forward.
The wound system isn't identical as AoS as wounds in AoS roll over to the next model. They don't in 40k. If I shoot a lascannon at a guardsman it doesn't kill his 5 buddies also.
I did allocate those wounds to one model at a time. Watch, I take 4 wounds of 1, 1, 2, 2.
My first terminator will take one of the 1s. Rolls dice and fails. I allocated 1 wound to that terminator. Now, I look at the 1,2,2 left over. If I do the other 1 I could lose 3 terminators but if I choose to roll the 2 next. Then if I fail the save my already wounded terminator takes 2 more wounds and dies. Now, I have a 1, 2 left over. I as the owning player can choose the 1 again and then the 2. Because, I as the owner get to choose. I can overkill 2 terminators instead of kill 3 of them.
hmm right no spill over from strong shots. did they show examples of doing this in the FAQ? i cant watch it. so they are saying the shots are being allocated or the wound? (meaning do you allocate before saves or after saves)
It could just be that when shooting a unit with 2 wounds no attack and do more than that, which creates a wound pool. Then you just remove models by distributing the wounds from the pool.
Lascannon does 1 damage - 1 wound added to pool.
Lascannon does 3 damage - 2 wounds added to pool.
Not sure if you played AOS or not but supposedly the wound system is identical.
i have and having played in a while (been on dystopian wars for a while)
but while its similar IIRCAOS has spill over damage meaning you cant pull off wound shenanigans like wasting overkill damage on single wound models.
Youn wrote: The wound system isn't identical as AoS as wounds in AoS roll over to the next model. They don't in 40k. If I shoot a lascannon at a guardsman it doesn't kill his 5 buddies also.
this right. that was like the first thing they said and i forgot it
there needs to be more explanation on the wound system.
They have already said you don't do wounds that way. To directly quote them a lascannon really kills 1 guardsman, his other 5 buddies don't die from sympathy pains. You should use the right weapon on the right target.
they would have to re do EVERYTHING characters every box, probably every vehicle and upgrade pack to match. thats a metric ass ton of injection moulding metal. and that is expensive. making nu marines make sense in that they dont actually have to invest nearlly as much in redoing the line. it leaves them with options.
this was my thinking until pete said on the stream that the other chapter guys can be juiced up to a primis marine. So its obvious they will be updating everything over time. All I am saying if you're going to do it anyways just do it and dont mess with the lore just because you're trying to cover up upsetting customers.
they would have to re do EVERYTHING characters every box, probably every vehicle and upgrade pack to match. thats a metric ass ton of injection moulding metal. and that is expensive. making nu marines make sense in that they dont actually have to invest nearlly as much in redoing the line. it leaves them with options.
this was my thinking until pete said on the stream that the other chapter guys can be juiced up to a primis marine. So its obvious they will be updating everything over time. All I am saying if you're going to do it anyways just do it and dont mess with the lore just because you're trying to cover up upsetting customers.
i dont think you understand just how hard it is to "just do it"
I did allocate those wounds to one model at a time. Watch, I take 4 wounds of 1, 1, 2, 2.
My first terminator will take one of the 1s. Rolls dice and fails. I allocated 1 wound to that terminator. Now, I look at the 1,2,2 left over. If I do the other 1 I could lose 3 terminators but if I choose to roll the 2 next. Then if I fail the save my already wounded terminator takes 2 more wounds and dies. Now, I have a 1, 2 left over. I as the owning player can choose the 1 again and then the 2. Because, I as the owner get to choose. I can overkill 2 terminators instead of kill 3 of them.
I think you roll the damage after the save is failed. Let's say you failed 4 saves and one terminator is already wounded, so he is removed without needing to roll for damage. That leaves 3 more damage rolls, lets say the results are 2,2,1. How are those assigned? Will it result in 2 more dead and 1 wounded or can you first assign 1 wound to a model and another another 2 son one is overkill?
they would have to re do EVERYTHING characters every box, probably every vehicle and upgrade pack to match. thats a metric ass ton of injection moulding metal. and that is expensive. making nu marines make sense in that they dont actually have to invest nearlly as much in redoing the line. it leaves them with options.
this was my thinking until pete said on the stream that the other chapter guys can be juiced up to a primis marine. So its obvious they will be updating everything over time. All I am saying if you're going to do it anyways just do it and dont mess with the lore just because you're trying to cover up upsetting customers.
Did they mean that in the fluff sense or the tabletop sense?
they would have to re do EVERYTHING characters every box, probably every vehicle and upgrade pack to match. thats a metric ass ton of injection moulding metal. and that is expensive. making nu marines make sense in that they dont actually have to invest nearlly as much in redoing the line. it leaves them with options.
this was my thinking until pete said on the stream that the other chapter guys can be juiced up to a primis marine. So its obvious they will be updating everything over time. All I am saying if you're going to do it anyways just do it and dont mess with the lore just because you're trying to cover up upsetting customers.
i dont think you understand just how hard it is to "just do it"
I sure do. GW has been updating kits since I started playing in 1998 without having to justify. Never did I say update everything at once so I really do not understand anything you're pointing out.
I did allocate those wounds to one model at a time. Watch, I take 4 wounds of 1, 1, 2, 2.
My first terminator will take one of the 1s. Rolls dice and fails. I allocated 1 wound to that terminator. Now, I look at the 1,2,2 left over. If I do the other 1 I could lose 3 terminators but if I choose to roll the 2 next. Then if I fail the save my already wounded terminator takes 2 more wounds and dies. Now, I have a 1, 2 left over. I as the owning player can choose the 1 again and then the 2. Because, I as the owner get to choose. I can overkill 2 terminators instead of kill 3 of them.
I think you roll the damage after the save is failed. Let's say you failed 4 saves and one terminator is already wounded, so he is removed without needing to roll for damage. That leaves 3 more damage rolls, lets say the results are 2,2,1. How are those assigned? Will it result in 2 more dead and 1 wounded or can you first assign 1 wound to a model and another another 2 son one is overkill?
We so far have no instructions as to the order of removing different number of damage wounds.
do you use up all the single damage wounds then the d3 then d6? the other way around? or defender gets to chose, because the latter opens up some silly shenanigans like youn pointed out so until they fully explain it we dont know.
I sure do. GW has been updating kits since I started playing in 1998 without having to justify. Never did I say update everything at once so I really do not understand anything you're pointing out.
was thinking you were saying "at once" my bad. but ether way. personally dont see them messing with the lore at all. just progressing it.
I did allocate those wounds to one model at a time. Watch, I take 4 wounds of 1, 1, 2, 2.
My first terminator will take one of the 1s. Rolls dice and fails. I allocated 1 wound to that terminator. Now, I look at the 1,2,2 left over. If I do the other 1 I could lose 3 terminators but if I choose to roll the 2 next. Then if I fail the save my already wounded terminator takes 2 more wounds and dies. Now, I have a 1, 2 left over. I as the owning player can choose the 1 again and then the 2. Because, I as the owner get to choose. I can overkill 2 terminators instead of kill 3 of them.
I think you roll the damage after the save is failed. Let's say you failed 4 saves and one terminator is already wounded, so he is removed without needing to roll for damage. That leaves 3 more damage rolls, lets say the results are 2,2,1. How are those assigned? Will it result in 2 more dead and 1 wounded or can you first assign 1 wound to a model and another another 2 son one is overkill?
I did allocate those wounds to one model at a time. Watch, I take 4 wounds of 1, 1, 2, 2.
My first terminator will take one of the 1s. Rolls dice and fails. I allocated 1 wound to that terminator. Now, I look at the 1,2,2 left over. If I do the other 1 I could lose 3 terminators but if I choose to roll the 2 next. Then if I fail the save my already wounded terminator takes 2 more wounds and dies. Now, I have a 1, 2 left over. I as the owning player can choose the 1 again and then the 2. Because, I as the owner get to choose. I can overkill 2 terminators instead of kill 3 of them.
I think you roll the damage after the save is failed. Let's say you failed 4 saves and one terminator is already wounded, so he is removed without needing to roll for damage. That leaves 3 more damage rolls, lets say the results are 2,2,1. How are those assigned? Will it result in 2 more dead and 1 wounded or can you first assign 1 wound to a model and another another 2 son one is overkill?
Damage doesn't overflow.
Yes, but there is no overflow. Either you start allocating the 1 wound hit and end up with 2 dead and 0 wounded, or you start with the 2 wound hits with 2 dead and 1 wounded.
OP is up to date.
Big thank you to Matt.Kingsley for the QA Summary
Another big thank you to ClockworkZion for Facebook Round-up #11!
And a final big thank you to GW for the vehicles article
The fact we have so much "assault is OP, no shooting is OP" is actually making this edition seem very balanced, very excited.
I am glad that vehicles can hurt people in combat, one of my favorite scenes in the books is when Kharne is impaled on a tank during istvaan 3, still roaring while being so injured. I would love a mechanic where the tank could move during combat, and the units in CC could roll a strength test to stay engaged (IE hold on while it moves! ) and follow it up the field.
Glad to see that the QA answered a few concerns about transports and characters as well. My chaos Spartan assault tank is looking good, 25 model limit!
Thanks to the community for the continued support in keeping the OP alive with fresh information.
Rippy wrote: OP is up to date.
Big thank you to Matt.Kingsley for the QA Summary
Another big thank you to ClockworkZion for Facebook Round-up #11!
And a final big thank you to GW for the vehicles article [/quote
#11?
I should probably not think of how many individual topics that was for because I may lament my lack of a life.
You do know that most of the stuff that has armor values now would've had a toughness value in 2nd edition instead right?
Wasn't it vice versa? Bikes, Wraithguard and even Cyborks had armour values.
I am actually at a loss. I am looking in my copy of Freebooterz, which I have thought for the longest time was 2nd ed.. and that's how the Dreadnought on p46 is listed. It has a toughness of 5. However, I am seeing for 2nd ed datacards and they are showing armor values per limb. I came in after 2nd ed (late in 3rd) and got into 2nd later.. so this is a bit of a puzzle for me.
...which.. actually illustrates my point a bit I think. I'm pretty sure the people who were, at some point use to Dreadnoughts having a T value.. were as miffed about the transition to AVs as I was about vehicles getting Hull Points. Ultimately, IMO.. it's a game.. if the rules are consistent then who cares what you call the number that tells you how hard the armor is to crack?
I did allocate those wounds to one model at a time. Watch, I take 4 wounds of 1, 1, 2, 2.
My first terminator will take one of the 1s. Rolls dice and fails. I allocated 1 wound to that terminator. Now, I look at the 1,2,2 left over. If I do the other 1 I could lose 3 terminators but if I choose to roll the 2 next. Then if I fail the save my already wounded terminator takes 2 more wounds and dies. Now, I have a 1, 2 left over. I as the owning player can choose the 1 again and then the 2. Because, I as the owner get to choose. I can overkill 2 terminators instead of kill 3 of them.
I think you roll the damage after the save is failed. Let's say you failed 4 saves and one terminator is already wounded, so he is removed without needing to roll for damage. That leaves 3 more damage rolls, lets say the results are 2,2,1. How are those assigned? Will it result in 2 more dead and 1 wounded or can you first assign 1 wound to a model and another another 2 son one is overkill?
Damage doesn't overflow.
Yes, but there is no overflow. Either you start allocating the 1 wound hit and end up with 2 dead and 0 wounded, or you start with the 2 wound hits with 2 dead and 1 wounded.
thats assuming that is the order you have to go in. if he allocated the 1 first then the 2 means you lose 1 damage on a 2 wound model. (allocation order 1,2,1,2 = 2 dead. vs 1,1,2,2 = 3 dead or 2,2,1,1 same thing) that is what youn was pointing out i think,
I did allocate those wounds to one model at a time. Watch, I take 4 wounds of 1, 1, 2, 2.
My first terminator will take one of the 1s. Rolls dice and fails. I allocated 1 wound to that terminator. Now, I look at the 1,2,2 left over. If I do the other 1 I could lose 3 terminators but if I choose to roll the 2 next. Then if I fail the save my already wounded terminator takes 2 more wounds and dies. Now, I have a 1, 2 left over. I as the owning player can choose the 1 again and then the 2. Because, I as the owner get to choose. I can overkill 2 terminators instead of kill 3 of them.
I think you roll the damage after the save is failed. Let's say you failed 4 saves and one terminator is already wounded, so he is removed without needing to roll for damage. That leaves 3 more damage rolls, lets say the results are 2,2,1. How are those assigned? Will it result in 2 more dead and 1 wounded or can you first assign 1 wound to a model and another another 2 son one is overkill?
We so far have no instructions as to the order of removing different number of damage wounds.
do you use up all the single damage wounds then the d3 then d6? the other way around? or defender gets to chose, because the latter opens up some silly shenanigans like youn pointed out so until they fully explain it we dont know.
I sure do. GW has been updating kits since I started playing in 1998 without having to justify. Never did I say update everything at once so I really do not understand anything you're pointing out.
was thinking you were saying "at once" my bad. but ether way. personally dont see them messing with the lore at all. just progressing it.
wounds work just like AOS I thought in one of the community articles this was stated. Its a very common sense way to do it. I pick the model but he will get the next wound until dead etc. Its very good very simple.
opponents are causing bs arguments, that's not the system's fault. Extra charts, really? Is memorising that armor goes from 10 to 14 is difficult for somebody? Is the game supposed to be by infants with no mental capacity? Excludigng the point of how dumb having no armor values is, they could have still done facings using toughness with like a penalty if you are shooting from the side or rear. But nope, let's just throw the system out of the window, because less tactics is more fun!
You really think thats what im saying?
it is the systems fault for being loosy goosy with the concept allowing the gak situations to happen. same deal with all the abuse cases Im not saying memorizing charts is hard. its not. but it IS having 2 different systems in a game and trying to balance both properly is a lot of extra work for basically no reward.
they decided the bloat was not worth trying to sift through so they rebuilt EVERYTHING from the ground up gak had to go and im glad they went that route.
Every system is gonna allow gak to happen. Sure, some situations a bit of clarification would have been nice but that is not justifying destroying the whole thing. Oh, wow. More than 1 system is hard. So having psychic phase, saves, to wound, to hit charts, charging and overwatch is fine, but having armor suddenly makes it a broken bloated mess? Yeah sure.
I fail to see how removing one of the few things that forced tactical desicions and actual flanking in a game where 90% of the time units move toward/away of an enemy or objective is somehow a good thing. Believing that every moronic decision on GW's part is a part of a great master plan to magically fix everything and therefore justified is a wishful thinking at best. GW in no way deserves the benefit of the doubt, not with their reputation.
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My GKT army waits in anticipation...
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