Galas wrote: Yeah, many people assumes that DG is only gonna receive terminators and Mortarion but vehicles have been mentioned and teased, as new Nurgle demons.
Do bikes confer toughness or wound or save bonuses in this edition? Can Chaos Bikers be given the Mark of Nurgle? I've not had time to skim through all of the rules and am not sure if the info on bikes has been released.. but I recall MoN on bikers in .. I think 4th.. and it was nasty.
MLaw wrote: Just did a once over between the FW table of contents and the leaked points table and it looks like the Orks might be missing a few things.
So far..
Battlefortress
Gun Wagon
Looted Wagon
and Skullhamma.. though it's not really an official model..
Either way, I have a Battlefortress and several variations of looted wagons and/or gunwagons. They yanked that option directly away from us.. So that's 2 looted Leman Russ, my Armorcast/Epicast vehicles (basically gunwagons or looted wagons with boomguns), my looted wagon with skorcha from a 2nd ed rhino, and probably a few more that I'm forgetting about. There is NOTHING to replace them.. They left in buggies, trakks, trucks, and battlewagons.. but that's it.. and the kill tank and big tracks from FW are still in.. which I have as well.. but there's no medium to heavy option to cover all of that intermediary..
I'm totally willing to bet they won't update the rules for the Ork Heavy Bomber. They never had a model for that, but dang was it fun making your own.
Galas wrote: Yeah, many people assumes that DG is only gonna receive terminators and Mortarion but vehicles have been mentioned and teased, as new Nurgle demons.
Do bikes confer toughness or wound or save bonuses in this edition? Can Chaos Bikers be given the Mark of Nurgle? I've not had time to skim through all of the rules and am not sure if the info on bikes has been released.. but I recall MoN on bikers in .. I think 4th.. and it was nasty.
I don't know whether the T6 Nurgle Bikers are still available, but in any case they would be much weaker with the new to-wound table - that unit was very strong in past editions primarily because basic S4 attacks only wounded it on a 6, which is no longer the case.
Anyone else notice on the leaked orks points summary that Gretchin are 10-30 unit size .... and the fact that characters are not in units anymore means you probably don't have to field a runtherd per 10....
Excuse me whilst I dig out my 80 2nd edition Gretchin
TwilightSparkles wrote: Anyone else notice on the leaked orks points summary that Gretchin are 10-30 unit size .... and the fact that characters are not in units anymore means you probably don't have to field a runtherd per 10....
Excuse me whilst I dig out my 80 2nd edition Gretchin
I was trying to figure out if they are able to join mobs of regular boyz now and confer their aura onto grot squads that are screening for them... Can't wait to have the rules in hand.. want to see if the different aura type effects work while embarked too. Loading a runtherd into a vehicle.. especially one with a KFF seems like it could really stretch out effectiveness of grots but I don't know that it would actually work out that way..
TwilightSparkles wrote: Anyone else notice on the leaked orks points summary that Gretchin are 10-30 unit size .... and the fact that characters are not in units anymore means you probably don't have to field a runtherd per 10....
Excuse me whilst I dig out my 80 2nd edition Gretchin
I was trying to figure out if they are able to join mobs of regular boyz now and confer their aura onto grot squads that are screening for them... Can't wait to have the rules in hand.. want to see if the different aura type effects work while embarked too. Loading a runtherd into a vehicle.. especially one with a KFF seems like it could really stretch out effectiveness of grots but I don't know that it would actually work out that way..
- Nobody can "join" units anymore, that mechanic has been removed entirely. Unless you mean 'join' as in 'stand close to', in which case your example works - as long as the grots stay within the range of the runtherd's bonus, it doesn't matter how many Orks he has to screen him.
- Aura effects are suspended while embarked. In fact nothing works in a vehicle - the rules explicitly state that embarked units just kind of go away and they can do nothing, except shoot if it's open-topped I guess.
MLaw wrote: Just did a once over between the FW table of contents and the leaked points table and it looks like the Orks might be missing a few things.
So far..
Battlefortress
Gun Wagon
Looted Wagon
and Skullhamma.. though it's not really an official model..
Either way, I have a Battlefortress and several variations of looted wagons and/or gunwagons. They yanked that option directly away from us.. So that's 2 looted Leman Russ, my Armorcast/Epicast vehicles (basically gunwagons or looted wagons with boomguns), my looted wagon with skorcha from a 2nd ed rhino, and probably a few more that I'm forgetting about. There is NOTHING to replace them.. They left in buggies, trakks, trucks, and battlewagons.. but that's it.. and the kill tank and big tracks from FW are still in.. which I have as well.. but there's no medium to heavy option to cover all of that intermediary..
It's quite simple really they don't want stats on "looted wagons" because people including my self were using models from other systems and gluing warhammer bits to them and calling them "looted wagons" it's purely a sales thing.
How ever that said 90pts boom guns were great in 5th providing the grots did not press that big red button, I had some hilarious accidents through it.
That's not a "sales" thing tho its a drinking the kool-aid thing. If GW doesn't sell a model and you buy GW Bits to built your own then they ARE making more money than they would otherwise (IE zero).
No idea what "drinking the kool-aid" means but I don't think you read what I wrote properly, there are people buying land raiders and converting them into ork looted wagons, there are even more buying cheaper alternatives,scratchbuilding and even using children's play toys sticking some spare bits on it and calling it a looted wagon.
The looted wagon promotes conversion and with conversion comes the before mentioned shenanigans, so cut the looted wagon out of the codex completely.
With the looted wagon now completely gone from the codex we now have a hole in our army lists, what can we do about this?
Buy more models to fill it.
And for people new to the hobby, they will never know they existed and will naturally not be bothered by the lack of looted wagons and buy other GW models .
To me it seems like a really sensible business decision and I'm sure that's how they will look at it, or can you come up with a better reason for them to cut the looted wagon out?
TwilightSparkles wrote: Anyone else notice on the leaked orks points summary that Gretchin are 10-30 unit size .... and the fact that characters are not in units anymore means you probably don't have to field a runtherd per 10....
Excuse me whilst I dig out my 80 2nd edition Gretchin
TwilightSparkles wrote: Anyone else notice on the leaked orks points summary that Gretchin are 10-30 unit size .... and the fact that characters are not in units anymore means you probably don't have to field a runtherd per 10....
Excuse me whilst I dig out my 80 2nd edition Gretchin
TwilightSparkles wrote: Anyone else notice on the leaked orks points summary that Gretchin are 10-30 unit size .... and the fact that characters are not in units anymore means you probably don't have to field a runtherd per 10....
Excuse me whilst I dig out my 80 2nd edition Gretchin
I was trying to figure out if they are able to join mobs of regular boyz now and confer their aura onto grot squads that are screening for them... Can't wait to have the rules in hand.. want to see if the different aura type effects work while embarked too. Loading a runtherd into a vehicle.. especially one with a KFF seems like it could really stretch out effectiveness of grots but I don't know that it would actually work out that way..
We already know the answers to these things. For example, models inside vehicles basically don't exist for rules purposes.
Thanks guys, I haven't really had a chance to drill into the rules and figure that part out.
Megaknob - For shame! Apparently you haven't been an ork player all that long. The reason a lot of us have "looted wagons" isn't because of some bs looted wagon entry.. it's because we used to actually be able to loot vehicles. My looted demolisher and leman russ aren't that way because I liked Looted Wagons.. as a point of fact, I complained when they were changed AWAY from the looted Imperial counterparts. GW did the generalized looted wagon thing with kids' toys to themselves. If they had left it alone as regular looted imperial whatever in the first place those other things wouldn't have happened.. since the base vehicle was required to be a GW model anyway.. That said.. the point is.. regardless of your (apparently very un-Orky) feelings on the matter, many gamers own the very types of vehicle you're referring to. More importantly, in the days of old, the exact things you're referring to as shenanigans were actually ENCOURAGED by GW. Frankly, I find your outlook on the issue to be a bit elitist and honestly, devoid of any understanding of the actual love some people put into these models. None of my looted vehicles are not based on actual GW models and none of them were created as some sort of shenanigan... and apparently.. none of them are going to be usable.. save for my Looted Land Raider that will serve as a Battlewagon as it has. My other Battle Wagon is a converted Leman Russ that I spent a LOT of time on converting into a Brain Crusha themed Battlewagon. As for my Battlefortress, it's actually not one of those really expensive Forgeworld ones that people can't use anymore.. It's also a conversion.. from a RT era Land Raider, Chimera, several Leman Russ components, and OOP bits/weapons/models that combined might end up being more than the original FW Battlefortress.. oh.. and the Deth Rolla is from FW..
Again.. regardless of what or why.. the fact is, this has happened and has left many of us stuck in a bad way. I do have a crap ton of Orks so I "can" field other lists in the interim but having units pulled out of rotation will never make people happy.. and pretending that we should just be content is a really bizarre and unsportsmanlike way of seeing this change IMO.
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Oguhmek wrote: KFF confers the save to the vehicle itself, right?
Not sure I'd use it to protect grots though, there are better uses.
I was under the understanding that any units in range would benefit.. so if the grots are screening a unit that has a KFF.. I would think both would get the save from that same KFF..
I would see the looted wagon situation as a boon; now you can use it counts-as whatever Ork vehicle you want (within reason). At the very least they can be trukks.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I would see the looted wagon situation as a boon; now you can use it counts-as whatever Ork vehicle you want (within reason). At the very least they can be trukks.
To be fair, part of the appeal of the newer Looted Wagon rules was it's position as a mid point between trukks and battlewagons. Even with how customizable it was, it did actually fill an empty niche in the Ork motorpool, to an extent.
There is an ongoing looted wagon discussion in the general forums.
Let me know if you can't find it in a pm, will be happy to point you in the right direction
Rippy wrote: There is an ongoing looted wagon discussion in the general forums.
Let me know if you can't find it in a pm, will be happy to point you in the right direction
I already clarified with Alpharius earlier in the thread that this is on-topic. Sorry it's not what you want us to talk about but it is part and parcel of 8th ed.
It's not that I don't want you to, it's just that there is a dedicated forum post to this topic.
Post what you like, I can only point in the right direction, I'm not a moderator or anything
Rippy wrote: It's not that I don't want you to, it's just that there is a dedicated forum post to this topic. Post what you like, I can only point in the right direction, I'm not a moderator or anything
The topic is 8th ed news.. units being left out is exactly that.. as was clarified.. I am pretty sure the particular thread (sub-topic of Ork units being abandoned) had tapered off anyway but for argument's sake, when Deathguard and it's viability were being discussed you did not seem to have a problem with it. I'm not trying to have an in-depth discussion about what the impact of those units missing might mean or anything but it's certainly news that needs to be pointed out for Ork players who are trying to stay abreast of the changes that are incoming.
Rippy wrote: It's not that I don't want you to, it's just that there is a dedicated forum post to this topic. Post what you like, I can only point in the right direction, I'm not a moderator or anything
The topic is 8th ed news.. units being left out is exactly that.. as was clarified.. I am pretty sure the particular thread (sub-topic of Ork units being abandoned) had tapered off anyway but for argument's sake, when Deathguard and it's viability were being discussed you did not seem to have a problem with it. I'm not trying to have an in-depth discussion about what the impact of those units missing might mean or anything but it's certainly news that needs to be pointed out for Ork players who are trying to stay abreast of the changes that are incoming.
Actually he did, he created the thread for the DG discussion so it wouldn't take up this thread.
That being said, I wonder if we will see these lost Ork units come back in their codex?
Rippy wrote: It's not that I don't want you to, it's just that there is a dedicated forum post to this topic.
Post what you like, I can only point in the right direction, I'm not a moderator or anything
The topic is 8th ed news.. units being left out is exactly that.. as was clarified.. I am pretty sure the particular thread (sub-topic of Ork units being abandoned) had tapered off anyway but for argument's sake, when Deathguard and it's viability were being discussed you did not seem to have a problem with it.
I'm not trying to have an in-depth discussion about what the impact of those units missing might mean or anything but it's certainly news that needs to be pointed out for Ork players who are trying to stay abreast of the changes that are incoming.
Actually he did, he created the thread for the DG discussion so it wouldn't take up this thread.
That being said, I wonder if we will see these lost Ork units come back in their codex?
That's the theory I keep hearing but I have no idea what the timeline for codex releases might look like. I am honestly hoping for a full return of the various Klans. Losing the Deathskull distinction was one of the things that drove me away from 40k.. one of many I guess..
I have been wondering that for all armies though.. like.. are Craftworld Eldar going to be a thing or will it be just the Eldar Codex or a separate thing.. Space Marines and Chaos seem to be the only army that has largely been immune to the great watering down... but somehow those players are still not content..
Kharne the Befriender wrote: I'm hoping the expansion for Death guard includes the Termies, one or more of the vehicles, and maybe a squad of plague marines?
I'm also hoping that we see these on pre-order on the 17th or a week after
Have they really been that fast with releases? I've not really been paying attention until 8th started being discussed.. That seems really soon after such a major release though.
Kharne the Befriender wrote: I'm hoping the expansion for Death guard includes the Termies, one or more of the vehicles, and maybe a squad of plague marines?
I'm also hoping that we see these on pre-order on the 17th or a week after
Have they really been that fast with releases? I've not really been paying attention until 8th started being discussed.. That seems really soon after such a major release though.
I have absolutely no idea, but from what i've seen with other releases (Kharadron, Tzeentch, GSC(?)), they all seem to be relatively close
Kharne the Befriender wrote: I'm hoping the expansion for Death guard includes the Termies, one or more of the vehicles, and maybe a squad of plague marines?
I'm also hoping that we see these on pre-order on the 17th or a week after
Have they really been that fast with releases? I've not really been paying attention until 8th started being discussed.. That seems really soon after such a major release though.
It is all speculation right now, but with the Dark Imperium Starters, I can see Codex: Space Marines, and Codex: Chaos Space Marines coming out Quick, though My guess (and it is pure speculation) would be both codexes in July rather then in June with the rest. I see Primaris Marines finishing out the month of June.
I said my piece a few times now about looted wagons on the fb page and have had likes n support today I asked if they could pass the communitys wishes about wanting looted wagons back and got a reply saying they would be passing the message along.
So I'd ask everyone to message on fb around 10am and 12am (U.K. Time) so it's more likely to be seen by the staff about looted wagons. Fingers crossed.
Also I don't see how the post I made about a new army builder on the community site for 8th is off topic. It new info and it's for 40k 8th isnt that what this thread is about. Also to the people on about paying for apps? Check the community site the AoS wars scroll builder is free and quite good so I assume the 40k one will be the same and that will be excellent if so.
Zognob Gorgoff wrote: I said my piece a few times now about looted wagons on the fb page and have had likes n support today I asked if they could pass the communitys wishes about wanting looted wagons back and got a reply saying they would be passing the message along.
So I'd ask everyone to message on fb around 10am and 12am (U.K. Time) so it's more likely to be seen by the staff about looted wagons. Fingers crossed.
Also I don't see how the post I made about a new army builder on the community site for 8th is off topic. It new info and it's for 40k 8th isnt that what this thread is about. Also to the people on about paying for apps? Check the community site the AoS wars scroll builder is free and quite good so I assume the 40k one will be the same and that will be excellent if so.
Will do! Seeing them remove that unit really caught me off guard.
Zognob Gorgoff wrote: I said my piece a few times now about looted wagons on the fb page and have had likes n support today I asked if they could pass the communitys wishes about wanting looted wagons back and got a reply saying they would be passing the message along.
So I'd ask everyone to message on fb around 10am and 12am (U.K. Time) so it's more likely to be seen by the staff about looted wagons. Fingers crossed.
Also I don't see how the post I made about a new army builder on the community site for 8th is off topic. It new info and it's for 40k 8th isnt that what this thread is about. Also to the people on about paying for apps? Check the community site the AoS wars scroll builder is free and quite good so I assume the 40k one will be the same and that will be excellent if so.
Will do! Seeing them remove that unit really caught me off guard.
Also, it may not be "Removed", as much as "Gone Until Codex".
I mean they could have plans to let Ork Players add the Looted rule to most vehicles in the game with slight penalties and bonuses for being looted.
The fun part about 8th so far is, things are so basic they can go anywhere.
MLaw wrote: Space Marines and Chaos seem to be the only army that has largely been immune to the great watering down... but somehow those players are still not content..
You must have missed all the initial whining about Marks no longer exisitng as a thing or Chapters & Legion rules going the way of the dodo, or Emperor's Children & Thousand Sons not getting their own Psychic Power, or Obliterators losing their power fists and obliterator weapons, or mutilator weapons, or...
The point is, every army got watered down. Indeed Chaos Marines lost more options than most.
Most people moved on. While it does suck that Orks lost Looted Wagons (even if they were an afterthought in 7th anyway), and it does suck that the Orks lost a handful of FW units, it's not fair for you to say that "Oh, Chaos lost nothing of importance, why are you whining? Wait, I lost 4 vehicles! Orks are watered down!". I feel for you, losing any option sucks, but you aren't the only one who lost options or got watered down.
MLaw wrote: Space Marines and Chaos seem to be the only army that has largely been immune to the great watering down... but somehow those players are still not content..
You must have missed all the initial whining about Marks no longer exisitng as a thing or Chapters & Legion rules going the way of the dodo, or Emperor's Children & Thousand Sons not getting their own Psychic Power, or Obliterators losing their power fists and obliterator weapons, or mutilator weapons, or...
The point is, every army got watered down. Indeed Chaos Marines lost more options than most.
Most people moved on. While it does suck that Orks lost Looted Wagons (even if they were an afterthought in 7th anyway), and it does suck that the Orks lost a handful of FW units, it's not fair for you to say that "Oh, Chaos lost nothing of importance, why are you whining? Wait, I lost 4 vehicles! Orks are watered down!". I feel for you, losing any option sucks, but you aren't the only one who lost options or got watered down.
So, they finally put Duncan in charge of a game system? Water everything down!
Azreal13 wrote: Sigmar was also an unknown quantity that had no history to justify such an intense release cadence. 40K might.
I agree with this, I think 40k definitely has the backing for it. Even if they only release a bundle of existing models with it (Maybe on discount), like they did with the starter boxes.
I'm sure 40k has the backing for a Codex every month, the part I was doubting more the the new model releases part.
Sorry, should have made that clear.
For example, I doubt Orks or Dark Eldar will get new models when they get their new codex, instead they'd be like 'Blades of Khorne' and be released in the same month as another army release that is actually getting new models.
Age of sigmar got 10 battletomes in its first year, which included some very slow releases of just one kit a week. I could easily 10 codexes for 40k in the first 12 months and then slowing down into an alternating schedule with AOS after that.
He was the mind behind Skitarii/Cult Mechanicus double-codex!
I don't remember where I read that in this warhammerfest GW has said that they have 15 books in production for 40k. How many of those are codex I don't know.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: I'm sure 40k has the backing for a Codex every month, the part I was doubting more the the new model releases part.
Sorry, should have made that clear.
For example, I doubt Orks or Dark Eldar will get new models when they get their new codex, instead they'd be like 'Blades of Khorne' and be released in the same month as another army release that is actually getting new models.
I guess that will depend on how much gak GW is sat on, given the run into 8th has been lengthy without full Codex releases, it isn't inconceivable they're sat on a bunch of stuff ready to go.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: I'm sure 40k has the backing for a Codex every month, the part I was doubting more the the new model releases part.
Sorry, should have made that clear.
For example, I doubt Orks or Dark Eldar will get new models when they get their new codex, instead they'd be like 'Blades of Khorne' and be released in the same month as another army release that is actually getting new models.
As far as the new kit aspect goes I don't think we'll see kit releases with every Codex, or maybe we will, I can see 2 things happening
1.) We get new codexes quite frequently with the new kits being released for campaigns
2.) They release codexes 2 at a time to go with a campaign that includes models for those codexes
Matt.Kingsley wrote: I'm sure 40k has the backing for a Codex every month, the part I was doubting more the the new model releases part.
Sorry, should have made that clear.
For example, I doubt Orks or Dark Eldar will get new models when they get their new codex, instead they'd be like 'Blades of Khorne' and be released in the same month as another army release that is actually getting new models.
Except the possible buggy (from the rumor engine) and the very tenative kopta (from the bigbomm each kopta got free without any extant models), the ork release may be small. But I'm still holding out for a Merry Orkmass!
Azreal13 wrote: I guess that will depend on how much gak GW is sat on, given the run into 8th has been lengthy without full Codex releases, it isn't inconceivable they're sat on a bunch of stuff ready to go.
Time will tell...
We have to hope, as the (for some reason not free) 'get you by' Index Books are terrible for some armies, and delete several armies from the game (Legions? Chapters? What are those?).
Azreal13 wrote: I guess that will depend on how much gak GW is sat on, given the run into 8th has been lengthy without full Codex releases, it isn't inconceivable they're sat on a bunch of stuff ready to go.
Time will tell...
We have to hope, as the (for some reason not free) 'get you by' Index Books are terrible for some armies, and delete several armies from the game (Legions? Chapters? What are those?).
Isn't it beautiful? Like 6th edition Ravening Hordes. Is the most balance 40k we are gonna have in decades.
Until the first codex arrives and we enter again that Alicia's rabbit hole
Zognob Gorgoff wrote: I said my piece a few times now about looted wagons on the fb page and have had likes n support today I asked if they could pass the communitys wishes about wanting looted wagons back and got a reply saying they would be passing the message along.
So I'd ask everyone to message on fb around 10am and 12am (U.K. Time) so it's more likely to be seen by the staff about looted wagons. Fingers crossed.
Also I don't see how the post I made about a new army builder on the community site for 8th is off topic. It new info and it's for 40k 8th isnt that what this thread is about. Also to the people on about paying for apps? Check the community site the AoS wars scroll builder is free and quite good so I assume the 40k one will be the same and that will be excellent if so.
Problem being if devs weren't already aware of the demand for looted wagon they would be quite ignorant. Not like this is first time they dropped it...
Let me just chime in with why Wagons (and alot of units, options, and wargear are gone), There's no official GW model for one.
This edition got rid of many conversions and anything not -straight-from-the-box that GW sells.
Chaos lost the bolters and chainsword option (and even melta bombs) because the official GW kit for Chaos Space Marines only gives you the parts to build one or the other (without conversions).
Unit composition has been reworked to represent the kit that it represents too. I was shocked to see CSM and Wolf Guard Terminators are no longer units of 3 but 5. Or Obliterators not one, but 3. All straight from the kit. So look in that direction for any hints to what may come back.
(Still baffled why the Ork Kommando kit has had Tankbusta Bombs clearly displayed on their backpacks for years, and have never been given them as wargear in any edition... and I'm so glad Korsarro Kahn kept his bike)
There will be no Missing/Added units and lost rules in future supplements/codexes without an official model to back it up. I can almost bet on it.
Zognob Gorgoff wrote: I said my piece a few times now about looted wagons on the fb page and have had likes n support today I asked if they could pass the communitys wishes about wanting looted wagons back and got a reply saying they would be passing the message along.
So I'd ask everyone to message on fb around 10am and 12am (U.K. Time) so it's more likely to be seen by the staff about looted wagons. Fingers crossed.
Also I don't see how the post I made about a new army builder on the community site for 8th is off topic. It new info and it's for 40k 8th isnt that what this thread is about. Also to the people on about paying for apps? Check the community site the AoS wars scroll builder is free and quite good so I assume the 40k one will be the same and that will be excellent if so.
Will do! Seeing them remove that unit really caught me off guard.
Also, it may not be "Removed", as much as "Gone Until Codex".
I mean they could have plans to let Ork Players add the Looted rule to most vehicles in the game with slight penalties and bonuses for being looted.
The fun part about 8th so far is, things are so basic they can go anywhere.
I mailed them three days ago sending the list of the missing models (Ie models I bought from them!)
from the Kastorel Novem Book (IA8).
Got the same kind of answer. I hope they will make and release the datasheets.
Model older than that and oop got their datasheets in the two first books.
Get the Gunwagonz, Battle Forteresses,
looted wagonz, grotz launchas (at least) back For Gork (or is it Mork?) sake!!
Matt.Kingsley wrote: I'm sure 40k has the backing for a Codex every month, the part I was doubting more the the new model releases part.
Sorry, should have made that clear.
For example, I doubt Orks or Dark Eldar will get new models when they get their new codex, instead they'd be like 'Blades of Khorne' and be released in the same month as another army release that is actually getting new models.
Except the possible buggy (from the rumor engine) and the very tenative kopta (from the bigbomm each kopta got free without any extant models), the ork release may be small. But I'm still holding out for a Merry Orkmass!
Or we could see a number of smaller "subfaction" books with a few kits each to fill gaps in the ranges. Fyreslayers for example was 2 kits, a monster, and some characters. We could see things like a Codex: Speed Freaks with buggies, koptas, warboss on bike and a new unit of some sort. Dark Eldar book with Vect on a vehicle, incubi, Drazhar, and his corrupted wraithguard units. Eldar getting a couple aspect units and matching phoenix lords. Mechanicus getting a Skitarii alpha, transport, and flier.
I am quite enjoying these Vox-Cast interviews, nice little insight in to the mind set of the guys behind the scenes.
I am loving what GW is putting out these days. Glad they have re-engaged the people again.
I'm guessing DG will be the first 8th codex/army considering pics of morty, new troops and terminators have been out for over a month now. I think we will get 4 of these based on the 4 main legions and a single supplement codex for the rest with similar for the other armies. Rules might well appear in WD and then accumulated into the supplement codex later.
At least I hope that is what happens as It keeps things neat. One of my biggest peeves with 7th were the masses of codices, supplements, datasheets, bits of paper and crap you needed just to play a game.
Von Marlon wrote: At least I hope that is what happens as It keeps things neat. One of my biggest peeves with 7th were the masses of codices, supplements, datasheets, bits of paper and crap you needed just to play a game.
Agreed - as with every edition of GW's flagship games, it's going to live and die on the Codices, because they are without fail the cause of every edition 'downfall' Right now we're in the fantastic 'pre-codex' period that we havn't seen since 3rd edition launched, and there's every indication that balance can be maintained, but all it takes is one dodgy codex and we're right back in the same mess.
It depends what exactly the Codices are this time around - my belief is that they need to go back to being short 'supplements' (like in 3rd edition!) that simply add a few unit/wargear options and cut back on the 'guff' so as to not try to justify an obscene £20-£30 price tag for each one. I would like to see them as 'add-ons' to the Index books, rather than replacements, since it's a damn cheeky move to sell the Index books (for far more than they should be, in my opinion) only to completely replace them in very short order.
I'm all psyched up to enjoy the 'pre-Codex' time for as long as it lasts, but after that my skepticism alarm will be on standby again. Prove me wrong, GW. Prove that you've changed!
Von Marlon wrote: I'm guessing DG will be the first 8th codex/army considering pics of morty, new troops and terminators have been out for over a month now. I think we will get 4 of these based on the 4 main legions and a single supplement codex for the rest with similar for the other armies. Rules might well appear in WD and then accumulated into the supplement codex later.
At least I hope that is what happens as It keeps things neat. One of my biggest peeves with 7th were the masses of codices, supplements, datasheets, bits of paper and crap you needed just to play a game.
They've already confirmed annual "Chapter Approved" books on the Warhammer Community site.
Messiah wrote: No, Vect has. I really hope they dont base a unit on them..
There was a lot of detail put into their descriptions, with two specific types. Makes it seem like a dual-kit that hasn't been released.
Thats too bad. I dislike any "mirrored" units between armies, and I dont want to see units that should be extremely limited in quantity played all the time. They should expand on whats different in the armies, instead of bringing them closer..
Von Marlon wrote: At least I hope that is what happens as It keeps things neat. One of my biggest peeves with 7th were the masses of codices, supplements, datasheets, bits of paper and crap you needed just to play a game.
Agreed - as with every edition of GW's flagship games, it's going to live and die on the Codices, because they are without fail the cause of every edition 'downfall' Right now we're in the fantastic 'pre-codex' period that we havn't seen since 3rd edition launched, and there's every indication that balance can be maintained, but all it takes is one dodgy codex and we're right back in the same mess.
It depends what exactly the Codices are this time around - my belief is that they need to go back to being short 'supplements' (like in 3rd edition!) that simply add a few unit/wargear options and cut back on the 'guff' so as to not try to justify an obscene £20-£30 price tag for each one. I would like to see them as 'add-ons' to the Index books, rather than replacements, since it's a damn cheeky move to sell the Index books (for far more than they should be, in my opinion) only to completely replace them in very short order.
I'm all psyched up to enjoy the 'pre-Codex' time for as long as it lasts, but after that my skepticism alarm will be on standby again. Prove me wrong, GW. Prove that you've changed!
Yeah, the way they handle this from here on out could easily make it or break it for me. 8th edition has me excited to try and start playing again, but only if they can maintain some kind of relative balance. Following the same old model of codex-style releases will almost surely put us back in the same position we used to be in, while once again making it hard to keep up with the game as we constantly need to buy $50-60 supplements to stay current. Sadly it sounds like they're going to be doing that regardless, with the promise that Death Guard are going to be getting their own book very soon that will add new units and make them stronger (as they're currently the "weakest" faction). Tons of people have been complaining about "lack of flavor" which we're told will come back in later books, too.
Makes me wonder what the point was, honestly. Why go through the effort of making such a massive change, playtesting it and working to make it as balanced as possible, going as far as to say this has been the most playtested set of rules they've ever released, release all the rules for every army at the same time which is probably the only way to ensure that everything is balanced out against each other as best as possible, only to feth it all up within months by going back to what they were doing before? Why charge people for the index books knowing full well they're going to be temporary?
Von Marlon wrote: At least I hope that is what happens as It keeps things neat. One of my biggest peeves with 7th were the masses of codices, supplements, datasheets, bits of paper and crap you needed just to play a game.
Agreed - as with every edition of GW's flagship games, it's going to live and die on the Codices, because they are without fail the cause of every edition 'downfall' Right now we're in the fantastic 'pre-codex' period that we havn't seen since 3rd edition launched, and there's every indication that balance can be maintained, but all it takes is one dodgy codex and we're right back in the same mess.
It depends what exactly the Codices are this time around - my belief is that they need to go back to being short 'supplements' (like in 3rd edition!) that simply add a few unit/wargear options and cut back on the 'guff' so as to not try to justify an obscene £20-£30 price tag for each one. I would like to see them as 'add-ons' to the Index books, rather than replacements, since it's a damn cheeky move to sell the Index books (for far more than they should be, in my opinion) only to completely replace them in very short order.
I'm all psyched up to enjoy the 'pre-Codex' time for as long as it lasts, but after that my skepticism alarm will be on standby again. Prove me wrong, GW. Prove that you've changed!
Again though, part of the issue with codex creep was an underpriced unit/army (or overpriced unit/army) was basically stuck there until the next codex came out. In the case, one overpowered army then forced further following armies to match that same power, as it was the only effective way to keep any short of reprinting the previous book with adjusted prices. The fact they plan to update point values every year means that it shouldn't be as big an issue.
It will be a problem early on, because some armies will get codices first, which will generally make them better. Just having a full psychic table, a few extra rules or warlord traits, and artifacts will be enough to push them ever so slightly ahead. Probably not enough to destroy balance, but expect to see issues.
Though, interestingly, someone pointed out it could be that armies which look to be a bit better than others now might be deliberately compensating for not getting a codex with such benefits in the near future. Which would be a mixed blessing to say the least.
Why charge people for the index books knowing full well they're going to be temporary?
Money.
I love the new direction, I'm feeling positive about the game and company in general, but let's not delude ourselves here; it's all about making money off customers.
It truly will be the test over the next 6-12 months if they can restrain themselves from power-creep.
At least if they do, we can always just fold back to the indices and dream of what could have been...
Right now though, let's enjoy what we have.
Also, worth remembering that when the codexes proper show up, the index books may be invalidated but outside of a tournament setting nothing is stopping you from still using them. So they could be a cheap way of trying out a new army or familiarising yourself with the other armies.
I fully expect several entries in the indexes (or their lack, such as the looted wagon) are the last we will ever see of them. I fully expect armies to get a few new units when their codex drop,but I very much doubt that a classic unit that didn't make it to the index will miraculously appear in the codex - if it was popular enough/GW wanted to support it, I sincerely think it would have been in the index. At least, with their handling of AoS, this is the impression I'm getting.
(I expect a LOT of Primaris releases over this year, including a codex drop right after 8th release, and then again in a year when the model line has been further fleshed out and can replace the current marine line)
However, the appearance of Rough Riders baffles me. I can't find the models on GW's sit for sale (at least, in US) - wonder if they're planning to redo those models? Personally, I've got the really old ones, with Necromundia spiders on them, and a mounted commisar with a plasma pistol....
Sidstyler wrote: Why charge people for the index books knowing full well they're going to be temporary?
Because many of us would rather pay to have those rules in an official printed capacity, instead of reading them off of a tablet, or printing them ourselves.
However, the appearance of Rough Riders baffles me. I can't find the models on GW's sit for sale (at least, in US) - wonder if they're planning to redo those models?
I imagine they will return in 8E. I'd be delighted if their mount was something more alien than a horse.
Looted Wagons didn't make it in to the last codex, and there is no official kit sold for it, so I imagine it's gone. It a White Dwarf Dataslate, much like Gerantius, who didn't make it into the 7E Imperial Knights Codex.
Sidstyler wrote: Why charge people for the index books knowing full well they're going to be temporary?
Because many of us would rather pay to have those rules in an official printed capacity, instead of reading them off of a tablet, or printing them ourselves.
Okay, so why aren't they available as a free PDF and as a bought book?
The thing is with the index books we have no idea how "temporary" some of them may be. We may get 2/3 years out of some of them. People bought Traitors hate, the Deathwatch codex etc and barely got six to twelve months out of them, and at a far inflated price.
Would have I preferred free downloads? Obviously. But with these cheaper than normal books at least 99% of armies and units are able to be officially played in 8th edition from day one. I really think GW would have drawn criticism either way but personally I think they have dealt with it in a pretty effective method.
Okay, so why aren't they available as a free PDF and as a bought book?
Same reason the latest Stephen King book isn't available as a free PDF. There's value in the PDF, that people will pay for.
What you meant to ask was, why were the scrolls free for AoS? And you know why they were, there was little value people were willing to pay for. GW needed to give those away to accommodate old fantasy players.
Okay, so why aren't they available as a free PDF and as a bought book?
Same reason the latest Stephen King book isn't available as a free PDF. There's value in the PDF, that people will pay for.
What you meant to ask was, why were the scrolls free for AoS? And you know why they were, there was little value people were willing to pay for. GW needed to give those away to accommodate old fantasy players.
The issue is that the customer has no way of actually judging the value of these books as they have no idea how long they will be relevant for. A Space Marine player who pays £15 for a book which is invalidated a couple of months later (maybe even sooner) by another book which possibly costs even more is gonna be pretty pissed and rightly so. Without knowing when further books are going to be released and what will be in them, we cannot judge with any confidence whether these indexes are good value compared to waiting for the next book.
Okay, so why aren't they available as a free PDF and as a bought book?
Same reason the latest Stephen King book isn't available as a free PDF. There's value in the PDF, that people will pay for.
What you meant to ask was, why were the scrolls free for AoS? And you know why they were, there was little value people were willing to pay for. GW needed to give those away to accommodate old fantasy players.
The issue is that the customer has no way of actually judging the value of these books as they have no idea how long they will be relevant for.
Unless you play Sisters! Then you're pretty confident that this is your codex now.
^That's really the crux of it. The average person here can run up that cost for a nice meal or a couple of pints...and these are some of the cheapest GW print materials we've seen in a long time.
They can still feth it up and charge $55-70 for a codex when it releases, but it'd be nice if we're seeing a more logical approach
Book costs the price of a HQ unit, and for the first time multiple factions per book.
Value on day one is you can play your army, with a few niche unit exceptions.
The situation is no different to 7th or any other edition in that there is no real certainty as to which codexes come after primaris and nurgle. There is nothing to say that the codexes will not contain the existing units and add new ones, without invalidating the rereleases.
The "First Blood" game (Howling Griffons vs Genestealer Cult) is happening on GW's Twitch channel now. I love the Rockgrinder charging into combat, even if it hasn't done much. I just hope Cruddace loses as penance for the two Tyranid Codices he utterly fethed in a row.
Chairman Aeon wrote: Same reason the latest Stephen King book isn't available as a free PDF. There's value in the PDF, that people will pay for.
Not a very good comparison. The Stephen King book isn't a "draft" whilst he finishes the real book. The Indexes are.
Chairman Aeon wrote: Same reason the latest Stephen King book isn't available as a free PDF. There's value in the PDF, that people will pay for.
Not a very good comparison. The Stephen King book isn't a "draft" whilst he finishes the real book. The Indexes are.
Seems to be how the "game" industry works now a days though full price for a half finished game, then paid dlc for the rest of the content. HEYOOO.
Honestly these indexes seem fine. and outside of the most cut throat tourny scene im sure most people wont really care if you play with an older index for a while if a fresh updated one popped up.
MLaw wrote: Thanks guys, I haven't really had a chance to drill into the rules and figure that part out.
Megaknob - For shame! Apparently you haven't been an ork player all that long. The reason a lot of us have "looted wagons" isn't because of some bs looted wagon entry.. it's because we used to actually be able to loot vehicles. My looted demolisher and leman russ aren't that way because I liked Looted Wagons.. as a point of fact, I complained when they were changed AWAY from the looted Imperial counterparts. GW did the generalized looted wagon thing with kids' toys to themselves. If they had left it alone as regular looted imperial whatever in the first place those other things wouldn't have happened.. since the base vehicle was required to be a GW model anyway..
That said.. the point is.. regardless of your (apparently very un-Orky) feelings on the matter, many gamers own the very types of vehicle you're referring to. More importantly, in the days of old, the exact things you're referring to as shenanigans were actually ENCOURAGED by GW. Frankly, I find your outlook on the issue to be a bit elitist and honestly, devoid of any understanding of the actual love some people put into these models. None of my looted vehicles are not based on actual GW models and none of them were created as some sort of shenanigan... and apparently.. none of them are going to be usable.. save for my Looted Land Raider that will serve as a Battlewagon as it has. My other Battle Wagon is a converted Leman Russ that I spent a LOT of time on converting into a Brain Crusha themed Battlewagon.
As for my Battlefortress, it's actually not one of those really expensive Forgeworld ones that people can't use anymore.. It's also a conversion.. from a RT era Land Raider, Chimera, several Leman Russ components, and OOP bits/weapons/models that combined might end up being more than the original FW Battlefortress.. oh.. and the Deth Rolla is from FW..
Again.. regardless of what or why.. the fact is, this has happened and has left many of us stuck in a bad way. I do have a crap ton of Orks so I "can" field other lists in the interim but having units pulled out of rotation will never make people happy.. and pretending that we should just be content is a really bizarre and unsportsmanlike way of seeing this change IMO.
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Oguhmek wrote: KFF confers the save to the vehicle itself, right?
Not sure I'd use it to protect grots though, there are better uses.
I was under the understanding that any units in range would benefit.. so if the grots are screening a unit that has a KFF.. I would think both would get the save from that same KFF..
Started in collecting in 4th left at the start of 6th come back at the end of 7th, I remember fondly of my own leman Russ looted wagon, my whole army is on another forum much love went into my orks, sorry for sounding elitist I'm just thinking about it from GWs point of view.
You further strengthend my argument with I replaced it with other models, we are on the same team I even want to start some sort of group so GW will take notice of us.
Sidstyler wrote: Why charge people for the index books knowing full well they're going to be temporary?
Because many of us would rather pay to have those rules in an official printed capacity, instead of reading them off of a tablet, or printing them ourselves.
Okay, so why aren't they available as a free PDF and as a bought book?
because GW isn't a charity, but a for profit business maybe?
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: The thing is with the index books we have no idea how "temporary" some of them may be. We may get 2/3 years out of some of them. People bought Traitors hate, the Deathwatch codex etc and barely got six to twelve months out of them, and at a far inflated price.
Would have I preferred free downloads? Obviously. But with these cheaper than normal books at least 99% of armies and units are able to be officially played in 8th edition from day one. I really think GW would have drawn criticism either way but personally I think they have dealt with it in a pretty effective method.
Hmm...this makes me realize that if I wait a month or two, I can probably get the Imperial I index for pretty cheap because the full codex will likely be out, and folks won't be using them any more. Similar thing should happen with the others (I suspect the Xenos books and Imperial 2 will retain their value the longest, since it'll be a while before each army's full codex is out - the "Aeldari" should price drop once Craftworld Eldar codex is out). Just something to think about for the people who are buying the indexes to "know the enemy".
It will be a problem early on, because some armies will get codices first, which will generally make them better. Just having a full psychic table, a few extra rules or warlord traits, and artifacts will be enough to push them ever so slightly ahead. Probably not enough to destroy balance, but expect to see issues.
Most importantly, faction Strategems. We should expect these to be very powerful, and more powerful for smaller factions, since they're the only benefit for limiting your army selection, to our knowledge so far.
Even after your faction get a proper codex, the index will still be handy to have for reference on factions you don't play. I only play Necrons right now (though working on my Blood Ravens slowly), but I eventually plan to have all 5 indices to use as a reference.
Why are people complaining about the index books, every one complained the game was unbalanced, they only way to sort it out properly and thoroughly was a reboot, thus spawned the new books, the reason they did not release all of the new individual faction books is because that would be a gargantuan task to undertake.
We can play with the simplified books for now while they get the proper codex books ready, I also think it's a massive world wide beta, so we can properly see what is balanced and what is not.
I have mixed feelings ... the game needed a rebalancing and bit of a reboot, but I'm a bit tired of buying new versions, especially since the last few have such seemingly short lifespans.
I do wish they had released some form of free get-by rosters with the free rules to evaluate whether to make the jump to 8th - but I guess the leaked index pictures have pretty much done that.
Personally, I have yet to play 8th, but signs are looking good I will eventually pick up the indexes, at least.
Megaknob wrote: Why are people complaining about the index books, every one complained the game was unbalanced, they only way to sort it out properly and thoroughly was a reboot, thus spawned the new books, the reason they did not release all of the new individual faction books is because that would be a gargantuan task to undertake.
We can play with the simplified books for now while they get the proper codex books ready, I also think it's a massive world wide beta, so we can properly see what is balanced and what is not.
"For in the grim dark future there is only war and complaining that nothing is ever good enough."
To be honest, being a multinational and multimillonarie company as GW, the minimums that people expect from then, having in account how much they charge for they products, are far from being unreasonable.
In the other hand, after all these years, is just like... "At least you aren't pissing in your own pants again"
Is as easy as spending your money elsewere if you don't consider that they offer a value you find reasonable for what they charge for their products, being it models, rules, etc... (Basically, this is why I never buy direct from GW. Only Krell, because that model is beautifull.)
Galas wrote: To be honest, being a multinational and multimillonarie company as GW, the minimums that people expect from then, having in account how much they charge for they products, are far from being unreasonable.
In the other hand, after all these years, is just like... "At least you aren't pissing in your own pants again"
Is as easy as spending your money elsewere if you don't consider that they offer a value you find reasonable for what they charge for their products, being it models, rules, etc... (Basically, this is why I never buy direct from GW. Only Krell, because that model is beautifull.)
Ultimately I think there is truth in this that a lot of people don't understand. On the GW site they are proclaiming that this is the game that we asked for. How did we ask for it? By not buying the other ones or buying enough to figure out that we didn't like that.. and communicating as much to them. The same language was spoken with Finecast.
If we don't like this edition.. I imagine they'll have to figure something out but there's enough excitement behind this and it's different enough that the initial surge will lift them (GW) up quite a bit and the stark difference in system will mean it'll be a while before we figure out whether or not we actually like this one and even what it is we do or don't. (not talking about things people already claim they hate about it or love about it.. but more things that take a year or two of playing to figure out).
I really hope that the successes of Space Hulk and Shadow War (and AOS Skirmish.. is that out? Wait.. I should probably get that..) will send the same message about those of us who remember and miss the older specialist games.
The bottom line is, they're listening right now.. we have to make sure we're saying things that make sense in a way they will understand.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Not a very good comparison. The Stephen King book isn't a "draft" whilst he finishes the real book. The Indexes are.
Then keep using your 7th Ed codex..or your 5th edition codex... I mean unless this is your first edition of 40K, you know that Codexes are only drafts until the next version comes out.
Sidstyler wrote: Why charge people for the index books knowing full well they're going to be temporary?
Because many of us would rather pay to have those rules in an official printed capacity, instead of reading them off of a tablet, or printing them ourselves.
Okay, so why aren't they available as a free PDF and as a bought book?
because GW isn't a charity, but a for profit business maybe?
Not really. It's been proven time and again that companies sell more overall (even physical books) if they release all rules for free. Its just an outdated business practice.
Almost did the $18 for a White Dwarf? Then I double checked the flag. I would laugh but feel sorry for the New Zealanders and Aussies. Us Canadians are what third from you guys in prices?
I really wish they would leak some more Death Guard stuff or something.. I took the Death Guard half of the starter box before all the New Primaris stuff was leaked.. feeling remorse, lol.
Chopxsticks wrote: I really wish they would leak some more Death Guard stuff or something.. I took the Death Guard half of the starter box before all the New Primaris stuff was leaked.. feeling remorse, lol.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Not a very good comparison. The Stephen King book isn't a "draft" whilst he finishes the real book. The Indexes are.
Then keep using your 7th Ed codex..or your 5th edition codex... I mean unless this is your first edition of 40K, you know that Codexes are only drafts until the next version comes out.
By this amazing logic then every edition of 40k is also a draft because a new version of the game will be released. Often sooner than a new version of a Codex! Come on, there is no reason to not expect better from GW in terms of creating well organized books. It's not that hard.
They are bigger but even the 2nd Ed one wouldnt look totally out of place if put on a piece of cork/scenic base which is what I will do with mine as they need a 32mm base upgrade anyway. Plastic MkIII should work too if based higher.
The DG are smaller than I expected from some previous shots. Truth be told, I like them this size, and wish they had just gone with making marines this size versus the Primaris size. It minimizes the divide between old and New while still adjusting the scale to something more representative of a space marine.
Hmm, I'm actually disappointed, I was hoping they could be used for truescale Plague Marines with only slight conversion.
It also doesn't look like we're getting that single-sprue Primaris they were giving away with full-bundle preorders in stores with the WD, which is a shame.
So is the single sprued Primaris Marine we have seen just a pre-order bonus at GW stores rather than a White Dwarf bonus? It is certainly part of one of the pre-order tiers at my local GW.
Yodhrin wrote: Hmm, I'm actually disappointed, I was hoping they could be used for truescale Plague Marines with only slight conversion....
Along those lines, how well could someone convert primaris into death guard?
Do DG have jump troops and plasma weapon devastator equivalents?
EDIT: Also have been watching several recent BATREPs for 8th.
This is really looking like a good edition for new players and returning players.
That is going to depend on the person's willingness and sculpting ability I think.. I am already contemplating sculpting robes or tabards and taking mine BT or DA
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: So is the single sprued Primaris Marine we have seen just a pre-order bonus at GW stores rather than a White Dwarf bonus? It is certainly part of one of the pre-order tiers at my local GW.
More than likely. I think it would have been a fantastic inclusion to the June White Dwarf, but that's me.
Sorry if this has been answered already, but are GW going to release the base rules for free? Are the dataslates or whatever going to be free?
I'm fine with buying the index, but I don't really want to buy a 300 page book for a few dozen pages of rules. I'd snap up a Index priced rules only book. I just don't understand why they'd not do that.
I'm actually happily buying the full book for actual new fluff for the first time in a million years.
It might not be good new fluff, but at least it'll be fresh, and it's the first time in a couple of editions I've either not slightly resented buying a BRB or held on for a mini from a starter. Plus it's a more sensible price this time round too.
Are we expecting a $20-25 "normal" rulebook anytime in the future? Was that hinted or teased at all, or with the free "main rules" do we expect this will be "the" rulebook. I'd vastly prefer something smaller, but I'd be more pissed if I spent $45-50 only for a smaller rulebook to come out a month or two later.
The book quality looks nice, and fluff is great etc., but I like a paper rulebook, and I don't love the idea of a hardbound 280-page fella.
Since the 'full' book is in the starter where they've previously put the cut down version it seems a lot less likely they'll do a separate release one
but who knows I guess its possible we'll one later
(although without a ton of them kicking around from the starter it would probably not be any cheaper than the main book since you'd probably have to buy it direct from GW rather than from a bits seller on ebay who had loads to dump after breaking up starters)
The Collector's Edition includes a mini rulebook, so the printing file already exists. I'd be very surprised if we never saw it in some sort of Stormclaw/Shield of Baal/Death Masque style box.
I really hope this Fate of Konor campaign has some design work and thought put into it like the Eye of Terror campaign from 2002. I fear if it is a simple Imperial vs. Chaos tug of war bar (with Xenos activity limited to just putting in results for one or the other side), then it will be a lopsided thing since Imperial players outnumber any other faction. Without some campaign design mechanics to account or ameliorate that player number imbalance, the Imperium's victory would never be in doubt. Also, Xenos players would probably want to make a mark on the narrative through being mentioned, not just being a unmentioned speed bump or background noise. That was why in the old Eye of Terror campaign, Ork players coordinated a hit on an Imperial forge world and got themselves mentioned, instead of Andy Chambers' original idea of them being an unnamed speed bump fighting Tau expansion.
Before someone says "But each Imperial player needs a Chaos player!", if they allow submissions from players at home, then no they don't. There would be nothing stopping an Imperial vs. Imperial game being reported as an Imperial victory no matter who won, and nothing preventing people from reporting games that never happened. While cheaters might occur on all sides in equal proportion, it would still mean the more numerous side wins out due to numbers:
For example, if there are 1000 Imperial players vs. 100 Chaos players, and 10% of all players cheat and report a game they never played. That would mean 100 extra Imperial wins reported vs. an extra 10 Chaos wins, meaning 90 uncompensated for Imperial wins nudging the result.
If the Age of Sigmar campaign was any indication, I'm not exactly confident as that was a pretty straightforward steamroller by the more numerous Forces of Order.
I wouldn't get too bent out of shape about the campaign. As you said, Imperial players (and armies) vastly outnumber everyone else, and the number of marine vs marine games is huge.
I think it'd be a bigger shame to restrict the campaign to only people who play in stores. You're then cutting out all of the players that play at home, in clubs, etc simply because you're worried about players "cheating", which can happen regardless of faction.
I did just address why cheating matters even if it occurs in all factions. If each faction cheated in equal proportion, the more numerous faction still wins. Even if nobody cheats, the more numerous faction still wins in the absence of any campaign mechanics that allows the less numerous factions to win against a numerically superior opponent. The issue is not so much cheating but rather that there is a great lopsidedness in terms of faction numbers. It is hardly an interesting or suspenseful campaign if the outcome is never in doubt.
Numbers is why every single 40K worldwide campaign (bar one, the Eye of Terror) was an Imperial victory or at worst, a draw that was tipping towards Imperial victory. The Eye of Terror campaign mechanics were unique in that there was a way for the less numerous side to gain an advantage, and simple brute force number of reported wins wasn't the only thing determining who won in a particular warzone. The Eye of Terror campaign also somewhat addressed the issue of home vs. verified store reported wins, by having the store reported wins count for more.
JimOnMars wrote: you people are so obsessed over size. Maybe you should switch to Orks.
Or Slaanesh.
More on topic though, talking to my FLGS manager, apparently store owners will report results to help decrease potential cheating like what happened during the 13th Black Crusade global campaign.
To be fair, the campaign should be results only from games held in a GW store. It's sucks if you aren't close to a GW to get your results collected, but it doesn't mean that you can't play and enjoy the campaign anyway.
Edit: actually, any store manager who stocks GW products would work.
Rippy wrote: To be fair, the campaign should be results only from games held in a GW store. It's sucks if you aren't close to a GW to get your results collected, but it doesn't mean that you can't play and enjoy the campaign anyway.
Edit: actually, any store manager who stocks GW products would work.
My FLGS is a non-GW store that carries GW stuff and is taking official part in the campaign. Other GW partners will as well.
No idea if they'll make room for clubs and the like to officialy influence results but the campaign games should be interesting regardless.
It should be imperium vs everyone else. Where Xenis wins reduce imperial wins and chaos wins just add more to chaos.
Imperials will still win the campaign due to numbers.
Nostromodamus wrote: Core rules will be free. Don't expect the advanced rules though.
The advanced rules are a mighty 2 pages (disregarding pictures and optional rules people never used anyway). I assume that warrants 30$ then.
A little disingenuous considering there are 36 pages of useful stuff from that point on.
Is it? I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen other people play planet strike, cities of death or any other supplement for 40k. I'm only counting pages that directly effect every game of 40k.
Nostromodamus wrote: Core rules will be free. Don't expect the advanced rules though.
The advanced rules are a mighty 2 pages (disregarding pictures and optional rules people never used anyway). I assume that warrants 30$ then.
A little disingenuous considering there are 36 pages of useful stuff from that point on.
Is it? I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen other people play planet strike, cities of death or any other supplement for 40k. I'm only counting pages that directly effect every game of 40k.
People do tend to like play more than one mission, or with points, or with Detachments though.
Remember, the free 14 pages of rules won't contain any Matched Play or Narrative Play stuff, or any of the other Open Play missions. (As they aren't Core Rules).
Actually, with the Cities of Death from the Warhammer Community Article, I think those are gonna be my default "matchet play" style of game.
+2 cover from standing still? Grenades being efective against units in cover? Special stratagems for ambushes, etc? Count me in!
Is like... a very strategic and charactefull layer of rules that mix very well with the basic rules, instead of how normally those rules are, that feel very... "thematic", so they aren't good to play with them all the time.
Nostromodamus wrote: Core rules will be free. Don't expect the advanced rules though.
The advanced rules are a mighty 2 pages (disregarding pictures and optional rules people never used anyway). I assume that warrants 30$ then.
A little disingenuous considering there are 36 pages of useful stuff from that point on.
Is it? I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen other people play planet strike, cities of death or any other supplement for 40k. I'm only counting pages that directly effect every game of 40k.
People do tend to like play more than one mission, or with points, or with Detachments though.
Remember, the free 14 pages of rules won't contain any Matched Play or Narrative Play stuff, or any of the other Open Play missions. (As they aren't Core Rules).
All of that is before "advanced" rules in the rulebook. I was commenting on them specifically not including the "advanced rules" section which only includes Battle-Forge Army rules (IE 2 pages of extremely simple formations) and Terrain rules (another 2 pages of extremely simple rules).
Excited for the campaign, can't wait to start it. Although with narrative being Chaos vs Forces of Imperioum I don't think xenos are going to get any decent amount of narrative time.
Tau or Necrons contributing to either sides seems odd as well. It's been ages since GW did something like this, so I'll manage to ignore it.
Knight wrote: Excited for the campaign, can't wait to start it. Although with narrative being Chaos vs Forces of Imperioum I don't think xenos are going to get any decent amount of narrative time.
Tau or Necrons contributing to either sides seems odd as well. It's been ages since GW did something like this, so I'll manage to ignore it.
Yeah the narrative is going to be all about the Imperium vs Chaos. I cant see any Xenos actively allying with the Chaos forces, but the Eldar and Necrons might get a bit of time fighting against them. Orks and Nids just want a good scrap or dinner so IMO they should be the spoiler factions fighting both sides. The Tau could also be fighting both sides. They should be a natural opponent of Chaos, but how much do they know about it? The Imperium on the other hand is a clear danger to there future and long time foe.
Aren't Tau located on the opposite side of the galaxy? With sluggish space fearing technology it seems odd to have them contributing to this campaign. I could understand, if it'd be more universally oriented, could easily represent that either side needs to spend resources on pacifying their activities/expansions.
Knight wrote: Excited for the campaign, can't wait to start it. Although with narrative being Chaos vs Forces of Imperioum I don't think xenos are going to get any decent amount of narrative time.
Tau or Necrons contributing to either sides seems odd as well. It's been ages since GW did something like this, so I'll manage to ignore it.
Yeah the narrative is going to be all about the Imperium vs Chaos. I cant see any Xenos actively allying with the Chaos forces, but the Eldar and Necrons might get a bit of time fighting against them. Orks and Nids just want a good scrap or dinner so IMO they should be the spoiler factions fighting both sides. The Tau could also be fighting both sides. They should be a natural opponent of Chaos, but how much do they know about it? The Imperium on the other hand is a clear danger to there future and long time foe.
Dark Eldar have worked with Chaos in the past - or at least have raided at the same time - they will certainly take advantage of any warfare between other factions to carry out raids for slaves and the thrill of it.
Iracundus wrote: There would be nothing stopping an Imperial vs. Imperial game being reported as an Imperial victory no matter who won (...)
Well, reading this...
Each xenos victory can be used to reduce either the Chaos or Imperial score in your local area
... I assume that not only victories are counted. Every victory in an Imperial vs Imperial game is also an Imperial defeat. And with Imperium and Chaos as main antagonists I could see both don't getting the same advantage from beating Xenos as from beating each other.
Iracundus wrote: I did just address why cheating matters even if it occurs in all factions. If each faction cheated in equal proportion, the more numerous faction still wins. Even if nobody cheats, the more numerous faction still wins in the absence of any campaign mechanics that allows the less numerous factions to win against a numerically superior opponent. The issue is not so much cheating but rather that there is a great lopsidedness in terms of faction numbers. It is hardly an interesting or suspenseful campaign if the outcome is never in doubt.
Numbers is why every single 40K worldwide campaign (bar one, the Eye of Terror) was an Imperial victory or at worst, a draw that was tipping towards Imperial victory. The Eye of Terror campaign mechanics were unique in that there was a way for the less numerous side to gain an advantage, and simple brute force number of reported wins wasn't the only thing determining who won in a particular warzone. The Eye of Terror campaign also somewhat addressed the issue of home vs. verified store reported wins, by having the store reported wins count for more.
The thing is that literally nothing will negate the sheer numbers of Imperial players and therefore Imperial victories. Just because I'm playing Imperial Guard doesn't automatically mean that I'm "traitor guard" every time I play a Marine player, because feth that. And let's face it, there are probably a lot of Eldar and Tau and Necron players that don't really like Chaos all that much. Slannesh anyone?
The answer is (or would be) more nuanced campaigns, where the various Xenos races, and probably even other imperial factions have their own objectives, which would serve to break it up a little more, even if they remained grouped by something as arbitrary as the Index Books. Space Marines want one thing, Imperial Agents (aka the High Lords and Ecclesiarchy) want a second thing while the Eldar have their own agenda and so forth... Maybe we can hope for something less binary in the future, but they're KISS right now, so yes, we know that the Imperium will do decently through weight of numbers.
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Galas wrote: People is gonna cheat. Nobody should take this "global campaings" as seriously as many do. Is a excuse to play games and have fun.
If people get angry because of the results of this event, even if there are people cheating, is doing it wrong.
... I assume that not only victories are counted. Every victory in an Imperial vs Imperial game is also an Imperial defeat. And with Imperium and Chaos as main antagonists I could see both don't getting the same advantage from beating Xenos as from beating each other.
I don't think you are quite getting what I meant. In the old Eye of Terror worldwide campaign, people submitted their wins online. Only wins were requested to avoid double counting. However one form of cheating was to have Imperial vs Imperial games (which technically should have had one side designated as a traitor force before the game), and then the loser was automatically designated as the "traitor force" after the game so the game would get reported as an Imperial victory no matter who won.
The thing is that literally nothing will negate the sheer numbers of Imperial players and therefore Imperial victories. Just because I'm playing Imperial Guard doesn't automatically mean that I'm "traitor guard" every time I play a Marine player, because feth that. And let's face it, there are probably a lot of Eldar and Tau and Necron players that don't really like Chaos all that much. Slannesh anyone?
The answer is (or would be) more nuanced campaigns, where the various Xenos races, and probably even other imperial factions have their own objectives, which would serve to break it up a little more, even if they remained grouped by something as arbitrary as the Index Books. Space Marines want one thing, Imperial Agents (aka the High Lords and Ecclesiarchy) want a second thing while the Eldar have their own agenda and so forth... Maybe we can hope for something less binary in the future, but they're KISS right now, so yes, we know that the Imperium will do decently through weight of numbers.
The Eye of Terror campaign had the threshold mechanics that did negate the sheer number of Imperial players. Basically a smaller number of wins placed correctly would have a far greater effect than a larger number of unfocused wins. Due to the greater disorganization of the Forces of Order during the Eye of Terror campaign, their greater number of wins was more than offset, leading to the campaign being declared officially in WD to be a minor Chaos victory. That was the only campaign where there was such a clear mechanic allowing for the smaller side to win.
Yes, I would agree one way to break things up would be to have the Imperial factions have mutually exclusive goals to split them up and make them compete against each other. If the Imperium remains a monolithic block, without any compensating campaign mechanics, there is hardly even a point for the other side to show up if the outcome is a foregone conclusion.
It has been over 100 years since the events of the gathering storm, and we see how Robute has forced the imperium to change. While not at the pace he would like he has to deal with the reality of the realm he occupies now. In addition they have next to no contact with the far side of the rift, so its still full on grimdark on that side. It will be interesting to see what further chapters bring and I really enjoy the differences in primaris marine characters purely based on the chapters they are from. Provides for some fun interactions and reminds me of what I love about playing Deathwatch fluff wise. We also learn that some of the primaris marines date from the time when guilimman still walked amongst the living and have been in intermittent stasis they are able to talk of the imperium of man when the primarchs were still amongst the living and not among-st the lost, of the glories of the past that they were alive to experience. I am super excited to keep reading.
So all the Imperial Guard characters are dead in the current setting? No more Yarrick, Straken or Jesse The Body?
Knight wrote: Aren't Tau located on the opposite side of the galaxy? With sluggish space fearing technology it seems odd to have them contributing to this campaign. I could understand, if it'd be more universally oriented, could easily represent that either side needs to spend resources on pacifying their activities/expansions.
They kinda accidently sent the 4th Expansion fleet right into the warp rift so now no one knows where or when they are. Cue Tau being able to be every campaign now.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Yarrick is already over 100 yrs old thanks to rejuvenation treatments iirc.
No reason why that wouldn't still be the case.
And he's already like Clint Eastwood old. Another 100 years on top of that?
And what about Straken and Harker et al? Normal humans all have Space Marine lifespans now if they're plot relevant?
Don't forget that thanks to warp travel you cold be hundreds of years old (or even technically be younger than you left) but only physically in your forties or fifties thanks to how inconsistent warp travel is and when you get places.
Just saw the Grey Knight rules and it's pretty annoying that they get a couple "eff you Daemons" abilities but the Daemons don't get anything in return. That will be a fun matchup. :(
skarsol wrote: Just saw the Grey Knight rules and it's pretty annoying that they get a couple "eff you Daemons" abilities but the Daemons don't get anything in return. That will be a fun matchup. :(
Daemons never had reciprocal abilities with GKs? I mean, GKs literally exist to smite daemons, and Daemons don't have anything on them...
I guess I'm just used to the Slaanesh/Eldar mechanics. Rerollson Wounds in combat is pretty dang harsh though now that Daemon weapon skill doesn't reduce their hit chance.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Yarrick is already over 100 yrs old thanks to rejuvenation treatments iirc.
No reason why that wouldn't still be the case.
Well, there kind of is - your top-shelf Imperial Hero/self-serving Noble type can squeak past 300 years old with juvenat treatments, but by the end of that timescale they are not a pretty picture. Not old like retirement age slightly arthritic old, old-old; liquid diet old, needs help to pee old. Even in outlier cases where some unholy confluence of genetics, good fortune, and the best juvenat available combined, you're still not going to be marching around at the head of armies hefting an Ork power klaw and a storm bolter. Folks like Yarrik would be well into their 260's and 270's if another century has gone by.
Of course they'll either come up with some excuse(timey-wimey-warpy stuff, Cawl, outright retcon of how effective juvenat treatments are etc), or they might go really mad and finally come out with new Guard regiment plastics and new special characters come Codex time. TBH I hope it's the latter - if they're going to enforce an advancing storyline on us rather than an expanding setting, the least they can do is use it as an excuse to update the hideous, inadequate, or missing elements of the 40K range.
skarsol wrote: Just saw the Grey Knight rules and it's pretty annoying that they get a couple "eff you Daemons" abilities but the Daemons don't get anything in return. That will be a fun matchup. :(
Daemons never had reciprocal abilities with GKs? I mean, GKs literally exist to smite daemons, and Daemons don't have anything on them...
Not quite true, there used to be a rule in an old GK codex that gave daemons a bonus as well... I think it was reinforcements or something? This was before the Ward codex and plastic GK though.
skarsol wrote: Just saw the Grey Knight rules and it's pretty annoying that they get a couple "eff you Daemons" abilities but the Daemons don't get anything in return. That will be a fun matchup. :(
Daemons never had reciprocal abilities with GKs? I mean, GKs literally exist to smite daemons, and Daemons don't have anything on them...
At one point Daemons got to recycle destroyed units when fighting against Grey Knights.
The problem is really that in this case implementing the background is a huge strain on game balance. Grey Knights cannot be balanced against Daemons and at the same time be balanced against other armies if they have special rules to help against Daemons, unless Daemons get something in return against Grey Knights.
It's been a consistent problem with Grey Knights that their balance was off. At the worst of times they were good against non-daemonic psyker heavy armies, making the balance issue even worse.
They kinda accidently sent the 4th Expansion fleet right into the warp rift so now no one knows where or when they are. Cue Tau being able to be every campaign now.
I can imagine many humorous consequences that could unravel by this action.
skarsol wrote: Just saw the Grey Knight rules and it's pretty annoying that they get a couple "eff you Daemons" abilities but the Daemons don't get anything in return. That will be a fun matchup. :(
Daemons never had reciprocal abilities with GKs? I mean, GKs literally exist to smite daemons, and Daemons don't have anything on them...
At one point Daemons got to recycle destroyed units when fighting against Grey Knights.
The problem is really that in this case implementing the background is a huge strain on game balance. Grey Knights cannot be balanced against Daemons and at the same time be balanced against other armies if they have special rules to help against Daemons, unless Daemons get something in return against Grey Knights.
It's been a consistent problem with Grey Knights that their balance was off. At the worst of times they were good against non-daemonic psyker heavy armies, making the balance issue even worse.
Yeah, this is where I'm stuck. If Daemons are balanced, and GK are balanced, and then I play against GK and they get to go super Saiyan, then it's an uphill battle.
Thats why Grey Knights don't works as their own army really.
Like Sisters of Silence. Agains't a strong psychic army they are a bane, they totally destroy them. Agains't ALL other armies... they are overpriced and worse sisters of battle.
skarsol wrote: Just saw the Grey Knight rules and it's pretty annoying that they get a couple "eff you Daemons" abilities but the Daemons don't get anything in return. That will be a fun matchup. :(
Daemons never had reciprocal abilities with GKs? I mean, GKs literally exist to smite daemons, and Daemons don't have anything on them...
At one point Daemons got to recycle destroyed units when fighting against Grey Knights.
The problem is really that in this case implementing the background is a huge strain on game balance. Grey Knights cannot be balanced against Daemons and at the same time be balanced against other armies if they have special rules to help against Daemons, unless Daemons get something in return against Grey Knights.
It's been a consistent problem with Grey Knights that their balance was off. At the worst of times they were good against non-daemonic psyker heavy armies, making the balance issue even worse.
Yeah, this is where I'm stuck. If Daemons are balanced, and GK are balanced, and then I play against GK and they get to go super Saiyan, then it's an uphill battle.
I know people in my group simply didn't bother playing Grey Knights versus Daemons games (at least when I was looking ) because of the skewed rules and when they did, it usually ended in disappointment. This certainly doesn't feel encouraging to me. I'd like 8th ed to be reasonably balanced, but I keep seeing stuff that makes me doubt we're even close.
And it's not like GW doesn't have an excuse to do anything about it. They've not been shy to give Necrons crazy reanimation rules and the Grey Knight background usually highlights how they are only called for the direst daemonic invasions. Honestly I would have liked to see daemonic reanimation protocols as long as any model with the Grey Knight keyword is on the board. Or something similar. No idea if Grey Knights are devastating enough to remove whole units, in which case a direct port of the rule wouldn't do much.
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Galas wrote: Thats why Grey Knights don't works as their own army really.
Like Sisters of Silence. Agains't a strong psychic army they are a bane, they totally destroy them. Agains't ALL other armies... they are overpriced and worse sisters of battle.
Which was true during Daemonhunter codex times, but not after the 5th ed codex dropped. It really depends what they are balanced against, because there is no middle ground. Slightly better against Daemons and slightly worse against other armies puts them at an advantage against one army and at a disadvantage against, where are we at these days? Fifteen, sixteen full armies? Who wants that?
They are not like Sisters of Silence. The 5th ed Grey Knight codex expanded them into a full faction, with all the tools to take on any army. Those tools are still there and need to be incorporated into the game and balanced as they would in any other army.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Yarrick is already over 100 yrs old thanks to rejuvenation treatments iirc.
No reason why that wouldn't still be the case.
And he's already like Clint Eastwood old. Another 100 years on top of that?
And what about Straken and Harker et al? Normal humans all have Space Marine lifespans now if they're plot relevant?
Same with all the Tau characters, actually. Farsight we know is long-lived because of his sword, which (unbeknownst to him) steals the life force of every enemy slain and adds it to his own. He could effectively be immortal right now. And Aun'va, I think they hinted at him maybe extending his life unnaturally so he could lead the Empire longer (or at least that's the assumption I made about him) but he's dead now and replaced by a hologram?
Every other Tau character should be dead, since the Tau have shorter lifespans than even an average human. It's about 40 years if I'm not mistaken, 50-60 maybe (it would be like people today making it to 80 or even 100). Shadowsun would be dead, unless she got tossed back in stasis for 100 years. Darkstrider dead. Longstrike dead.
There's the whole upsey-downy, timey-wimey warpy-stormy nonesense where areas of space are experiencing slower or faster time due to the warp storms. I guess they could use it as an excuse to keep characters around.
Or they could just ignore the fact that they rolled the clock forward. Characters are living in comic time, and never age unless it’s part of the story.
Many special characters from WHFB got replaced by an equivalent option that wasn't a named character. Its actually worked quite well from a gameplay perspective since it's expanded the generic character options for many armies.
Yeah, that wouldn't be hard to do with Tau, either. Darkstrider could just be replaced by an upgraded "super pathfinder" with his gear, Longstrike can be replaced with a generic tank commander as they roll out his experimental suit to everyone after putting it into production...
What I'd also like to see is GW finally do a plastic kit for the XV-22 armor that Shadowsun and O'Kais from Dawn of War use and make it a generic commander option, so you could have a regular battlesuit commander or a "stealth" option that can do different things. Of course the right time to do that would have been around when DoW: Dark Crusade was still fresh so I guess that'll never happen.
So i've been checking out a few batreps for 8th that some folks have been putting out and was wondering, does it look like the standardish points size for games now is going to go up in 8th edition to about 2,000pts? You don't seem to get much really anymore for 1,500pts it looks like overall.
I like that they don't rush and give a whole month to get to know how things are. And, after all, August is pretty much the month when everyone's starting to come back from vacations, etc.
GenRifDrake wrote: So i've been checking out a few batreps for 8th that some folks have been putting out and was wondering, does it look like the standardish points size for games now is going to go up in 8th edition to about 2,000pts? You don't seem to get much really anymore for 1,500pts it looks like overall.
2000 already was standard in my area for a full game, with lower points values for a quicker one.
Wouldn't be surprised if the standard rises to 3000, you can't fit much of an army collection into 2000 at this point.
New DG sculpts here, not the middle one but the bare headed one on the right, to the left and behind. The one in the back appears to be carrying some kind of odd weapon, doesn't look like plasma to me.
GenRifDrake wrote: So i've been checking out a few batreps for 8th that some folks have been putting out and was wondering, does it look like the standardish points size for games now is going to go up in 8th edition to about 2,000pts? You don't seem to get much really anymore for 1,500pts it looks like overall.
2000 already was standard in my area for a full game, with lower points values for a quicker one.
Wouldn't be surprised if the standard rises to 3000, you can't fit much of an army collection into 2000 at this point.
I'd expect 2000, that's where AoS is and I suspect GW was aiming to have 40k at that total as well. As I understand it it seems that 2k is a good approximation for what armies were before though there are obviously some outlying elements.
I think I read 2k was the tournament standard that TOs will be using for matched play. And if just about every edition since at least 3rd is a guide, people will play what the tourneys are playing---even if they're playing solo.
skarsol wrote: Just saw the Grey Knight rules and it's pretty annoying that they get a couple "eff you Daemons" abilities but the Daemons don't get anything in return. That will be a fun matchup. :(
Daemons never had reciprocal abilities with GKs? I mean, GKs literally exist to smite daemons, and Daemons don't have anything on them...
They actually did, once. Back when they were simply known as 'daemon hunters'. Grey knights were supposedly so OP against daemons that the designers decided to give the Endless special rule all non greater daemons, so they automatically replenished and came back in full number from the daemon players table side, when the unit was fully destroyed. Hilariously though, this "minor buff" given to the daemon players in order to even "stand a chance", was stupidly broken and ironically made daemons the worst matchup possible for grey knights.
For people talking about the campaign, a true chaos victory would mean ultramar, home of the spiritual liege, would fall. Even a minor victory could mean that. You really think GW would let that happen?
It's almost better to just let imperials win, last time chaos came close to winning GW threw a hissy fit and refused to advance the timeline for well over a decade. We just now got pass that. Either imperials win or the timeline doesn't move forward, those are sadly still the options.
Rippy wrote: Looks like they are out of news articles on Warhammer Community site, today is just a recap
Tbf, I noticed that as soon as the leaks came they started coming slower. Maybe they just blew their proverbial load a bit early, dunno.
SilverAlien wrote: For people talking about the campaign, a true chaos victory would mean ultramar, home of the spiritual liege, would fall. Even a minor victory could mean that. You really think GW would let that happen?
It's almost better to just let imperials win, last time chaos came close to winning GW threw a hissy fit and refused to advance the timeline for well over a decade. We just now got pass that. Either imperials win or the timeline doesn't move forward, those are sadly still the options.
Just a few corrections I feel need to be made:
1. The campaign is over the fate of Kandor Konor which is near or in the Ultramar system but is not Ultramar itself.
2. There was obvious cheating in the Eye of Terror campaign on both sides so it was ltimately tossed out. To try prevent that store owners are reporting results, not the players. Hopefully losses and wins will be tallied.
3. Chaos just cracked Cadia and likely tore the galaxy in half kicking off us going past 999.M40 (probably since the Imperium screwed up time keeping over the last 10k years) and the new edition picks up at the end of the Indomitus Crusade and leads right into the Fate of Kandor.
Rippy wrote: Looks like they are out of news articles on Warhammer Community site, today is just a recap
I believe they've said they still have a few Faction Focus articles still to post.
Not a real shock that it went from a steady stream to a weak trickle with everything (except all of the lore parts of the main book) leaked. I mean how much can you tease when the internet already has everything?
SilverAlien wrote: For people talking about the campaign, a true chaos victory would mean ultramar, home of the spiritual liege, would fall. Even a minor victory could mean that. You really think GW would let that happen?
It's almost better to just let imperials win, last time chaos came close to winning GW threw a hissy fit and refused to advance the timeline for well over a decade. We just now got pass that. Either imperials win or the timeline doesn't move forward, those are sadly still the options.
Just a few corrections I feel need to be made:
1. The campaign is over the fate of Kandor Konor which is near or in the Ultramar system but is not Ultramar itself.
2. There was obvious cheating in the Eye of Terror campaign on both sides so it was ltimately tossed out. To try prevent that store owners are reporting results, not the players. Hopefully losses and wins will be tallied.
3. Chaos just cracked Cadia and likely tore the galaxy in half kicking off us going past 999.M40 (probably since the Imperium screwed up time keeping over the last 10k years) and the new edition picks up at the end of the Indomitus Crusade and leads right into the Fate of Kandor.
So yeah....what were you claiming again?
I don't think "the campaign's results are finally implemented a decade after the campaign" is technically speaking tossed out. Just heavily delayed until someone says it is fine, so long as the loss is overshadowed by the return of RG the smurf king and his new army of even better marines. The return of a demigod and his army of even more super soldiers after losing a single planet is the closest the imperium has come to a set back. I'd shudder to imagine what the imperium gets if chaos wins this campaign. Cawl invents a literal "I win" button?
The imperium will never lose, or suffer real setbacks, or have any actual loss that isn't immediately and totally compensated for. Just how it is.
SilverAlien wrote: For people talking about the campaign, a true chaos victory would mean ultramar, home of the spiritual liege, would fall. Even a minor victory could mean that. You really think GW would let that happen?
It's almost better to just let imperials win, last time chaos came close to winning GW threw a hissy fit and refused to advance the timeline for well over a decade. We just now got pass that. Either imperials win or the timeline doesn't move forward, those are sadly still the options.
Just a few corrections I feel need to be made:
1. The campaign is over the fate of Kandor Konor which is near or in the Ultramar system but is not Ultramar itself.
2. There was obvious cheating in the Eye of Terror campaign on both sides so it was ltimately tossed out. To try prevent that store owners are reporting results, not the players. Hopefully losses and wins will be tallied.
3. Chaos just cracked Cadia and likely tore the galaxy in half kicking off us going past 999.M40 (probably since the Imperium screwed up time keeping over the last 10k years) and the new edition picks up at the end of the Indomitus Crusade and leads right into the Fate of Kandor.
So yeah....what were you claiming again?
I don't think "the campaign's results are finally implemented a decade after the campaign" is technically speaking tossed out. Just heavily delayed until someone says it is fine, so long as the loss is overshadowed by the return of RG the smurf king and his new army of even better marines. The return of a demigod and his army of even more super soldiers after losing a single planet is the closest the imperium has come to a set back. I'd shudder to imagine what the imperium gets if chaos wins this campaign. Cawl invents a literal "I win" button?
The imperium will never lose, or suffer real setbacks, or have any actual loss that isn't immediately and totally compensated for. Just how it is.
So, HALF of the thousand chapters going missing, some confirmed destroyed due to rift and half of the galaxy unable to percieve the Astronomicon is somehow a position of strength for the Imperium?
Even with the Primaris Marines (a ten thousand year old project that needed a Primarch's approval not to be burned as pure heresy) the galaxy isn't looking at a bright future but rather one where they can't even maintain the old status quo because it's gone. Literally thousands of worlds and systems are lost into the warp. I need to double check, but if the rift cut the center axis of the galaxy in half there went the super dense center mass onmwhich everything orbits which would further screw everyone over as systems begind to drift further and further apart.
The imperium will never lose, or suffer real setbacks, or have any actual loss that isn't immediately and totally compensated for. Just how it is.
Chaos will ultimately win. That is not exactly a secret. The Imperium is fighting for survival and losing. The Primarchs returning is simply that moment of hope to add to the tragedy before the final defeat. I'm sorry the isn't good for you.
SilverAlien wrote: For people talking about the campaign, a true chaos victory would mean ultramar, home of the spiritual liege, would fall. Even a minor victory could mean that. You really think GW would let that happen?
It's almost better to just let imperials win, last time chaos came close to winning GW threw a hissy fit and refused to advance the timeline for well over a decade. We just now got pass that. Either imperials win or the timeline doesn't move forward, those are sadly still the options.
Just a few corrections I feel need to be made:
1. The campaign is over the fate of Kandor Konor which is near or in the Ultramar system but is not Ultramar itself.
2. There was obvious cheating in the Eye of Terror campaign on both sides so it was ltimately tossed out. To try prevent that store owners are reporting results, not the players. Hopefully losses and wins will be tallied.
3. Chaos just cracked Cadia and likely tore the galaxy in half kicking off us going past 999.M40 (probably since the Imperium screwed up time keeping over the last 10k years) and the new edition picks up at the end of the Indomitus Crusade and leads right into the Fate of Kandor.
So yeah....what were you claiming again?
I don't think "the campaign's results are finally implemented a decade after the campaign" is technically speaking tossed out. Just heavily delayed until someone says it is fine, so long as the loss is overshadowed by the return of RG the smurf king and his new army of even better marines. The return of a demigod and his army of even more super soldiers after losing a single planet is the closest the imperium has come to a set back. I'd shudder to imagine what the imperium gets if chaos wins this campaign. Cawl invents a literal "I win" button?
The imperium will never lose, or suffer real setbacks, or have any actual loss that isn't immediately and totally compensated for. Just how it is.
So, HALF of the thousand chapters going missing, some confirmed destroyed due to rift and half of the galaxy unable to percieve the Astronomicon is somehow a position of strength for the Imperium?
Even with the Primaris Marines (a ten thousand year old project that needed a Primarch's approval not to be burned as pure heresy) the galaxy isn't looking at a bright future but rather one where they can't even maintain the old status quo because it's gone. Literally thousands of worlds and systems are lost into the warp. I need to double check, but if the rift cut the center axis of the galaxy in half there went the super dense center mass onmwhich everything orbits which would further screw everyone over as systems begind to drift further and further apart.
Well, it means more room for the new and improved version to take center stage and show how much better they are. Thank goodness Cawl and RG made sure that loss was totally and utterly inconsequential. Also, the galactic core was already totally devoid of life, remember that's where the squats were and they got eaten by the tyranids. So few if any imperial worlds were actually lost. Well, worlds that hadn't already been lost before being retconned back into existence minus the squats. Also, don't apply physics to 40k, particularly in regards to the warp. That's just not gonna work.
Any loss the Imperium suffers in anyway will be immediately and totally compensated for. It is silly to pretend the results of a campaign will override the constant driving force that is the Imperium's protagonist status. Unless the campaign involves siter's of battle at least, then you can expect awful things to happen if they don't win. Or if they do win really.
The imperium will never lose, or suffer real setbacks, or have any actual loss that isn't immediately and totally compensated for. Just how it is.
Chaos will ultimately win. That is not exactly a secret. The Imperium is fighting for survival and losing. The Primarchs returning is simply that moment of hope to add to the tragedy before the final defeat. I'm sorry the isn't good for you.
Well, again no. The closest to chaos "winning" you will see is warhammer end times transitioning to AoS. "rocks fall, everyone dies, roll new characters".
SilverAlien wrote: For people talking about the campaign, a true chaos victory would mean ultramar, home of the spiritual liege, would fall. Even a minor victory could mean that. You really think GW would let that happen?
It's almost better to just let imperials win, last time chaos came close to winning GW threw a hissy fit and refused to advance the timeline for well over a decade. We just now got pass that. Either imperials win or the timeline doesn't move forward, those are sadly still the options.
Just a few corrections I feel need to be made:
1. The campaign is over the fate of Kandor Konor which is near or in the Ultramar system but is not Ultramar itself.
2. There was obvious cheating in the Eye of Terror campaign on both sides so it was ltimately tossed out. To try prevent that store owners are reporting results, not the players. Hopefully losses and wins will be tallied.
3. Chaos just cracked Cadia and likely tore the galaxy in half kicking off us going past 999.M40 (probably since the Imperium screwed up time keeping over the last 10k years) and the new edition picks up at the end of the Indomitus Crusade and leads right into the Fate of Kandor.
So yeah....what were you claiming again?
I don't think "the campaign's results are finally implemented a decade after the campaign" is technically speaking tossed out. Just heavily delayed until someone says it is fine, so long as the loss is overshadowed by the return of RG the smurf king and his new army of even better marines. The return of a demigod and his army of even more super soldiers after losing a single planet is the closest the imperium has come to a set back. I'd shudder to imagine what the imperium gets if chaos wins this campaign. Cawl invents a literal "I win" button?
The imperium will never lose, or suffer real setbacks, or have any actual loss that isn't immediately and totally compensated for. Just how it is.
So, HALF of the thousand chapters going missing, some confirmed destroyed due to rift and half of the galaxy unable to percieve the Astronomicon is somehow a position of strength for the Imperium?
Even with the Primaris Marines (a ten thousand year old project that needed a Primarch's approval not to be burned as pure heresy) the galaxy isn't looking at a bright future but rather one where they can't even maintain the old status quo because it's gone. Literally thousands of worlds and systems are lost into the warp. I need to double check, but if the rift cut the center axis of the galaxy in half there went the super dense center mass onmwhich everything orbits which would further screw everyone over as systems begind to drift further and further apart.
Well, it means more room for the new and improved version to take center stage and show how much better they are. Thank goodness Cawl and RG made sure that loss was totally and utterly inconsequential. Also, the galactic core was already totally devoid of life, remember that's where the squats were and they got eaten by the tyranids. So few if any imperial worlds were actually lost. Well, worlds that hadn't already been lost before being retconned back into existence minus the squats. Also, don't apply physics to 40k, particularly in regards to the warp. That's just not gonna work.
Any loss the Imperium suffers in anyway will be immediately and totally compensated for. It is silly to pretend the results of a campaign will override the constant driving force that is the Imperium's protagonist status. Unless the campaign involves siter's of battle at least, then you can expect awful things to happen if they don't win. Or if they do win really.
you realize utter total victory for chaos would mean 40k is dead right?
BrianDavion wrote: you realize utter total victory for chaos would mean 40k is dead right?
That's kinda the point. These campaigns are so silly because they never will have any actual effect, because the narrative is predetermined. Chaos will constantly be looming over a decaying imperium that never quite dies, with the only possible upset being some deus ex emperor making things potentially less grim for the imperium (kinda like what happened for the eldar). “Welcome to 40k, the game where everything's made up and the campaign results don't matter”.
SilverAlien wrote: For people talking about the campaign, a true chaos victory would mean ultramar, home of the spiritual liege, would fall. Even a minor victory could mean that. You really think GW would let that happen?
It's almost better to just let imperials win, last time chaos came close to winning GW threw a hissy fit and refused to advance the timeline for well over a decade. We just now got pass that. Either imperials win or the timeline doesn't move forward, those are sadly still the options.
Just a few corrections I feel need to be made:
1. The campaign is over the fate of Kandor Konor which is near or in the Ultramar system but is not Ultramar itself.
2. There was obvious cheating in the Eye of Terror campaign on both sides so it was ltimately tossed out. To try prevent that store owners are reporting results, not the players. Hopefully losses and wins will be tallied.
3. Chaos just cracked Cadia and likely tore the galaxy in half kicking off us going past 999.M40 (probably since the Imperium screwed up time keeping over the last 10k years) and the new edition picks up at the end of the Indomitus Crusade and leads right into the Fate of Kandor.
So yeah....what were you claiming again?
I don't think "the campaign's results are finally implemented a decade after the campaign" is technically speaking tossed out. Just heavily delayed until someone says it is fine, so long as the loss is overshadowed by the return of RG the smurf king and his new army of even better marines. The return of a demigod and his army of even more super soldiers after losing a single planet is the closest the imperium has come to a set back. I'd shudder to imagine what the imperium gets if chaos wins this campaign. Cawl invents a literal "I win" button?
The imperium will never lose, or suffer real setbacks, or have any actual loss that isn't immediately and totally compensated for. Just how it is.
So, HALF of the thousand chapters going missing, some confirmed destroyed due to rift and half of the galaxy unable to percieve the Astronomicon is somehow a position of strength for the Imperium?
Even with the Primaris Marines (a ten thousand year old project that needed a Primarch's approval not to be burned as pure heresy) the galaxy isn't looking at a bright future but rather one where they can't even maintain the old status quo because it's gone. Literally thousands of worlds and systems are lost into the warp. I need to double check, but if the rift cut the center axis of the galaxy in half there went the super dense center mass onmwhich everything orbits which would further screw everyone over as systems begind to drift further and further apart.
Well, it means more room for the new and improved version to take center stage and show how much better they are. Thank goodness Cawl and RG made sure that loss was totally and utterly inconsequential. Also, the galactic core was already totally devoid of life, remember that's where the squats were and they got eaten by the tyranids. So few if any imperial worlds were actually lost. Well, worlds that hadn't already been lost before being retconned back into existence minus the squats. Also, don't apply physics to 40k, particularly in regards to the warp. That's just not gonna work.
Any loss the Imperium suffers in anyway will be immediately and totally compensated for. It is silly to pretend the results of a campaign will override the constant driving force that is the Imperium's protagonist status. Unless the campaign involves siter's of battle at least, then you can expect awful things to happen if they don't win. Or if they do win really.
So nothing of consequence changed between this map:
Spoiler:
And this one?:
Spoiler:
Really? I mean the galaxy is now pockmarked with warp storms, whole systems lost permanently, the entire far side of the Imperium is basically lost to the light of the Astronomicon forever making any reasonable travel frankly a nutty idea, and the Imperium lost half of it's elite army in a single moment not to mention most of the Blood Angels and Space Wolves chapter.
Now on average there are about a million marines, half of that is 500,000. Cawl's reinforcements barely covered a fifth of what was lost and we don't even currently know how much longer making the new Marines takes over the old ones.
You can try and make claims about how "nothing is different and everything is a-ok for the Imperium" but considering the gaalxy is boiling towards every single world being embroiled in war, "there is only war" seems less like narrative exaggeration and a straightforward statement about life as everyone knows it from now on.
The Imperium has always been screwed. Slowly dying to it's own stagnation and corruption within as well as the threats that pressure it from without. There was only one possible way to win the war for humanity and it invovled the Emperor ascending to godhood and resetting the balance himself, only he's lost so much of his humanity that if he did become a god (and likely swallow the Sol system into a new Eye of Terror) he orobably would give less fecks about humanity than he would about the cheese of the month club.
There is NO win for the Imperium left. The return of the Primarchs is not a way forward for the Imperium, but a mark of it's true End Times. Expect the story to be progressing forward now in small chunks as we drag the circling of the drain for humanity on as long as possible before likely ultimately breaking the universe ten to twenty years from now before we see a continuity reboot of somekind that relaunches the eternal war in a new setting, or they lock us in at a nanosecond to midnight on the Doom Clock again.
honestly the people who claim nothing happened, there is quite literally no pleasing. their idea of "change" would be Abbaddon invading the Sol syste, the entre military might of the IoM concentrating for 1 battle, before Abbaddon blows earth up with the Planet Killer.
nevermind that that level of change would quite literally destroy 40k
That's kinda the point. These campaigns are so silly because they never will have any actual effect, because the narrative is predetermined. Chaos will constantly be looming over a decaying imperium that never quite dies, with the only possible upset being some deus ex emperor making things potentially less grim for the imperium (kinda like what happened for the eldar). “Welcome to 40k, the game where everything's made up and the campaign results don't matter”.
I suppose that is preferable to the alternative. "alright guys, Chaos won in a landslide, the Imperium is no more. If you had an Imperial army get frakked". I mean its all well and good to say the campaigns do nothing. But the story is, after 10,000 years of Abaddon being useless, finally progressing. You are not happy because you can't wipe one or more factions out? What would make you happy, ending the story completely? They did that for Age of Suckmar, and look at how well it worked out for them. I don't know anyone who used to play Fantasy that plays age of Sigmar.
Leth wrote: Probably the new blight launchers if I had to guess. Super pumped to see these......will have to see how they look with my FW death guard...
I've been on the edge of my seat since the Death Guard reveal at Adepticon.
I really just want the Terminators/Plague Marine kits out already, same with Mortarion. The sooner I can expand on the Dark Imperium Death Guard, the better.
That's kinda the point. These campaigns are so silly because they never will have any actual effect, because the narrative is predetermined. Chaos will constantly be looming over a decaying imperium that never quite dies, with the only possible upset being some deus ex emperor making things potentially less grim for the imperium (kinda like what happened for the eldar). “Welcome to 40k, the game where everything's made up and the campaign results don't matter”.
I suppose that is preferable to the alternative. "alright guys, Chaos won in a landslide, the Imperium is no more. If you had an Imperial army get frakked". I mean its all well and good to say the campaigns do nothing. But the story is, after 10,000 years of Abaddon being useless, finally progressing. You are not happy because you can't wipe one or more factions out? What would make you happy, ending the story completely? They did that for Age of Suckmar, and look at how well it worked out for them. I don't know anyone who used to play Fantasy that plays age of Sigmar.
yeah, wiping out factions won't happen. and it shouldn't. even though "ohh you can still play your X" no one likes to see the army they've put time effort and money into carefully assmbling and painting be made "historical"
BrianDavion wrote: you realize utter total victory for chaos would mean 40k is dead right?
That's kinda the point. These campaigns are so silly because they never will have any actual effect, because the narrative is predetermined. Chaos will constantly be looming over a decaying imperium that never quite dies, with the only possible upset being some deus ex emperor making things potentially less grim for the imperium (kinda like what happened for the eldar). “Welcome to 40k, the game where everything's made up and the campaign results don't matter”.
Of course that assumes 40k was supposed to be story that advances by company initiave rather than what it actually was, a setting from which PLAYERS would fight it out and see where it goes from.
With our super news thread in it's dying days, and a lack of news today, I just thought I would take a second to indulge myself with a few words
Warning, corny post ahead:
I am overwhelmed with how amazing this community truly is. In the last few months that this thread has been up and running I have been receiving at least roughly 3-5 personal messages a day. Messages of thanks, formatting suggestions, and most importantly, news and rumors I hadn't added. This shows how fantastic this community really is, so many people came together to make this super thread happen, and I will unashamedly say that it is the greatest compendium of 8th news and rumors I have seen on the internet.
With over a million views, over sixteen thousand replies (most of which were on topic ) and entering the most exalted of all time list, it has been a blast keeping the OP up to date.
So thank you to everyone who has helped me, for those who wrote summaries of information found in videos and those who brought us news and rumors in the thread and through PMs. I tried to credit everyone as I went in the OP (apologies to those who I didn't credit, some days were hectic for updating)
I want to say a special thank you to ClockworkZion who brought us 20 Facebook round-ups, following what GW was saying on their facebook (especially handy for those who don't have a facebook).
Also another special thank you to all of the Moderators who worked super hard at keeping everyone on topic and polite (some times with 50+ pages of chat a day, and still managing to keep it in check!).
So although this is potentially the last edition 40k ever has (depending on it's success), hopefully I will have the privilege of doing the next edition news and rumors thread if there ever is one!
I will try and get in first for the upcoming Death Guard codex news and rumors thread if information starts coming in
It's a message I've said before but I'll say it again to those who do not like the new 40k:
So you don't like what GW has done with 40k, that's totally OK. And don't let anyone tell you you're wrong for personally disliking how things have gone. But remember that if you are looking to justify being unhappy then there will always be a reason. There is absolutely nothing GW can do or could have done that would not have left a large number of people unhappy with the changes (or lack of), and luck has unfortunately left you in that group. Once you've had your piece (because everyone is entitled to a wee bit of complaining about things they don't like) the question is if you can accept that not everything is for everyone and move on. Continuing to linger on what you don't like and how you don't like it doesn't do any good for others, and certainly does harm to your own enjoyment.
Rippy wrote: With our super news thread in it's dying days, and a lack of news today, I just thought I would take a second to indulge myself with a few words
Warning, corny post ahead:
**Snip**
I will try and get in first for the upcoming Death Guard codex news and rumors thread if information starts coming in
Thanks for doing such a great job with the OP of this thread. It's been a joy to read! I can't wait to see more of the new death guard! I really really hope they will be a great army to field!
BrianDavion wrote: honestly the people who claim nothing happened, there is quite literally no pleasing. their idea of "change" would be Abbaddon invading the Sol syste, the entre military might of the IoM concentrating for 1 battle, before Abbaddon blows earth up with the Planet Killer.
nevermind that that level of change would quite literally destroy 40k
Hence, as some of us have been saying since year dot, the whole idea of an advancing timeline is pointless goalpost shifting. Every time they "move things forward" they have to rebalance the status quo between the factions so it still resembles the status quo ante, or else 40K's story ends.
I got a question guys. As far as I've heard/seen a transport can now have a number of different units embarked on it. The Tyranid Tyrannofex says that you can either have A unit of up to 20 infantry models or A monster with up to 14 wounds embarked on it. Do you think you would still be able to mix and match the 20 infantry models, or would it have to be a single unit of up to 20 infantry models? The reason I am asking this is because of how it is worded. To quote: "When you set up a Tyrannocyte in its hive ship, you can also set up a <Hive Fleet> infantry unit of up to 20 models" ...
That turmoil is what some of us find entertaining about an advancing story. There are disadvantages, but then there are disadvantages to a static setting. Sales will tell GW if it was a good idea or not, though if their stock is anything to go by I'd say people like the change.
Milkshaker wrote:
Thanks for doing such a great job with the OP of this thread. It's been a joy to read! I can't wait to see more of the new death guard! I really really hope they will be a great army to field!
lord_blackfang wrote:You are a gentleman and a scholar, Rippy.
Milkshaker wrote:
Thanks for doing such a great job with the OP of this thread. It's been a joy to read! I can't wait to see more of the new death guard! I really really hope they will be a great army to field!
lord_blackfang wrote:You are a gentleman and a scholar, Rippy.
BrianDavion wrote: honestly the people who claim nothing happened, there is quite literally no pleasing. their idea of "change" would be Abbaddon invading the Sol syste, the entre military might of the IoM concentrating for 1 battle, before Abbaddon blows earth up with the Planet Killer.
nevermind that that level of change would quite literally destroy 40k
Hence, as some of us have been saying since year dot, the whole idea of an advancing timeline is pointless goalpost shifting. Every time they "move things forward" they have to rebalance the status quo between the factions so it still resembles the status quo ante, or else 40K's story ends.
The setting has always been a setting: Individual stories, individual games can be set at any point during the 10,000 year timeline.
There's zero harm in setting stories past the 41st millenium year 999 cutoff point, but there is harm in treating the setting as if it's one story.
And honestly that's what they've done here, with massive sweeping arbitrary changes to the galaxy map for the sake of change, and Gulliman as the very clear protagonist of the galaxy's story.
Rippy, I just want to say you deserve massive kudos my man! This is without a doubt the BEST N&R thread I've ever read anywhere on the Internet. That op is a thing of beauty and I never had to search through 538 pages of stuff to find one tidbit of info- it was all in the OP! Thanks for all your hard work! It was greatly appreciated by myself and many other people!
Yeah, you've done a great job gathering all the relevant news. I abandoned the thread on the whole because of how off-topic and/or nonsensical some posters got but you've managed to keep us all informed thanks to the OP.
Looks like 8th is going to be a big hit, as I'm sure one of the FB comments was something along the lines of "You better have enough stock available for launch" GW- "Don't worry, we got this" looks like.... they might not 'Got this' although, the fact that even though they have obviously prepared, to be running low on stock when we are still a week out. Thats a lot of boxes. Looks like a few more GW stocks are on the cards for me.
PS: Rippy, this has been my first stop on the interwebs over the last few weeks, you have done a great job. Thank you.
BrianDavion wrote: honestly the people who claim nothing happened, there is quite literally no pleasing. their idea of "change" would be Abbaddon invading the Sol syste, the entre military might of the IoM concentrating for 1 battle, before Abbaddon blows earth up with the Planet Killer.
nevermind that that level of change would quite literally destroy 40k
Hence, as some of us have been saying since year dot, the whole idea of an advancing timeline is pointless goalpost shifting. Every time they "move things forward" they have to rebalance the status quo between the factions so it still resembles the status quo ante, or else 40K's story ends.
The setting has always been a setting: Individual stories, individual games can be set at any point during the 10,000 year timeline.
Not true.
Not every faction has ten thousand years of history to play around with, which is why simply limiting things to the Imperium's past is not good as it leaves these players out permanently. The Tau were not a technological race until recently. When they were first encountered by the Imperium 6000 years ago they were stone age hunters, which is hardly suitable for a 40K game. The Tyranids did not really arrive on the scene til Behemoth. The Necrons did not really become more active until recently. Sure one can try to handwave it as an isolated tomb world or a splinter fleet that conveniently disappears again, but then you also relegate these to effectively never making any impact whatsoever on the background if they are forced to somehow be forgotten about or be made to go inactive again (so that the Imperium can be surprised when the Necrons or Tyranids really show up in late M41). Players usually like to play their armies as what their armies actually are, not handwaved "stand-in" armies or have deus ex machina negate any impact they might make on background.
The entire history of these factions is compressed into a tiny part at the end of M41 (see below) which causes increasing issues as they have no additional time to work with. The advancement of the timeline gives them more space and time in which to do things and have new units.
For example, the Tau have only been active and technological for a short period of time. Some of their weapons in their Codex are recent additions. This creates problems for GW if more additions are added in future editions, as ever more stuff gets crammed into a narrow unchanging window of time. One thing GW has done is try to retcon stuff further back, such as the Tau's Custodian class carrier ship, but that only goes so far because it still runs into the barrier of when the Tau actually became a technological spacefaring race, and also creates problems with continuity. This is because the Tau are explicitly described as having inferior space forces in the Damocles Crusade, and the Custodian was part of a Tau naval expansion and modernization as a result of shortcomings uncovered during that Crusade. Retcon things too far back and you overturn the reason for the Custodian's existence. Don't retcon enough and you run into the barrier of the Damocles Crusade as the earliest time when one can even think about a Custodian class carrier existing, even if just on the drawing board. It also strains ever more suspension of disbelief if the Tau are shown as taking over more worlds or sectors given the small size of their empire and their limited resources.
Lord Damocles wrote:
'First contact' between the Imperium and the Necrons was at Sanctuary 101 in 897.M41. We know that there were some contacts before this, but the whole point of Sanctuary was that it was the first time the Necrons were aknowledged as a serious threat. However the timeline has already been pushed back so far that the Imperium has had multiple major conflicts with the Necrons, on multiple planets of far more value, long before Sanctuary - it strains suspension of disbelief that the Necrons can be such a 'new' threat if they've been in conflict with the Imperium for hundreds of years. We now have an Inquistor running about inside an active tombworld a full century before Sanctuary, but apparently not bothering to tell anybody about it?
The problem for the Tau is that any advancement of their technology (which is kind of their thing) has to be placed within an already packed out timeline - it's only been two and a half centuries since the Damocles Gulf Crusade; during which time they've recovered from the Imperial Crusade, re-developed their fleet, developed a load of new battlesuits and weapons, defeated a Hive Fleet, stopped a Waagh!, expanded their colonies, launched a major expansion, etc..
Thankfully the bad timeline stuff is explainable as "the Imperium screwed up datekeeping" now. But yes, too much crammed into the last chunk of the timeline.
Y'vahra looks less poor than the riptide, but slightly hard to tell without points values.
I'll note it's lost torrent on it's flamer gun and the flechettes will never come up though: If you aren't in combat you won't shoot a pistol over better guns, and if you are in combat you'll leave immediately because you can fly.
changemod wrote: Y'vahra looks less poor than the riptide, but slightly hard to tell without points values.
I'll note it's lost torrent on it's flamer gun and the flechettes will never come up though: If you aren't in combat you won't shoot a pistol over better guns, and if you are in combat you'll leave immediately because you can fly.
Malanthrope is one of my favorite models hands down. Glad he is still a boss on the table! Being a 9 wound character than buffs nearby units with his venomthrope shroud is awesome! No more sniping the Malanthrope to get rid of cover bonuses. Though he has been balanced a bit now. His save is atrocious (but he gets -1 to be hit) and he no longer regenerates.
I will wait to see how many points all these new units are. I bet at least some will be heavly overpriced.
Meka-dread is basically a double deff-dread with 1 extra BS. Deff is PL8. This is PL12. Seems about right to me since 2 deff dreads would be 16PL at the same toughness, but with more guns.
I'll make a bet right now that this will be 115-120 points base if the klaws are not included.
Edit: Actually should add some points for those abilities, too. Maybe 140 to 150. It's hard to figure out how much they valued hit and run. The ramshackle isn't terribly powerful. |
This has to be one of the best building monopose miniatures for a starter set of Warhammer. Very intuitive and allow for a very easy customization, changing arms, heads, etc....
Not like the Chaos Chosen of Dark Vengeane. They where lovely models but how they were divided in parts... WTF? The one with an Axe and the superior half of his head attached to the axe-arm
rollawaythestone wrote: Malanthrope is one of my favorite models hands down. Glad he is still a boss on the table! Being a 9 wound character than buffs nearby units with his venomthrope shroud is awesome! No more sniping the Malanthrope to get rid of cover bonuses. Though he has been balanced a bit now. His save is atrocious (but he gets -1 to be hit) and he no longer regenerates.
It doesn't say units it says model with in 3" so only useful for small number of models. But you could put him close to a Hive Tyrant and make it harder to hit.
rollawaythestone wrote: Malanthrope is one of my favorite models hands down. Glad he is still a boss on the table! Being a 9 wound character than buffs nearby units with his venomthrope shroud is awesome! No more sniping the Malanthrope to get rid of cover bonuses. Though he has been balanced a bit now. His save is atrocious (but he gets -1 to be hit) and he no longer regenerates.
It doesn't say units it says model with in 3" so only useful for small number of models. But you could put him close to a Hive Tyrant and make it harder to hit.
The real question is how do you resolve a shooting attack against a unit where only some of the models have -1 to hit? My guess is that it's an error by FW and it should be units and not models.
When in doubt, it's an error by FW. They don't exactly have a good (or even passable) record of churning out lots of functional rules updates in a short time. Anyone remember IA: Aeronautica?
rollawaythestone wrote: Malanthrope is one of my favorite models hands down. Glad he is still a boss on the table! Being a 9 wound character than buffs nearby units with his venomthrope shroud is awesome! No more sniping the Malanthrope to get rid of cover bonuses. Though he has been balanced a bit now. His save is atrocious (but he gets -1 to be hit) and he no longer regenerates.
It doesn't say units it says model with in 3" so only useful for small number of models. But you could put him close to a Hive Tyrant and make it harder to hit.
The real question is how do you resolve a shooting attack against a unit where only some of the models have -1 to hit? My guess is that it's an error by FW and it should be units and not models.
Or you just read the rules in question.
We had this kind of stuff in the past, and it was generally not an issue except when people wanted it to be an issue.
rollawaythestone wrote: Malanthrope is one of my favorite models hands down. Glad he is still a boss on the table! Being a 9 wound character than buffs nearby units with his venomthrope shroud is awesome! No more sniping the Malanthrope to get rid of cover bonuses. Though he has been balanced a bit now. His save is atrocious (but he gets -1 to be hit) and he no longer regenerates.
It doesn't say units it says model with in 3" so only useful for small number of models. But you could put him close to a Hive Tyrant and make it harder to hit.
The real question is how do you resolve a shooting attack against a unit where only some of the models have -1 to hit? My guess is that it's an error by FW and it should be units and not models.
Not a problem, you target a unit where one of the models has a -1 to hit, you're targeting that model and it kicks in.
Models are not targeted, units are. Most likely the rule means "if a target unit has at least one model within 3 inches..." but that's not what it says.
The way I'd play it is like cover; either the whole unit has it or it doesn't. But I agree that its almost certainly a mistake, given FW's track record of lackluster rules integration.
It's an error, based on the Venomthrope ability's wording saying unit. Easy to work around. Unless you rilly rilly wanna be that guy. They'll FAQ it pronto I'm sure.
Very disappointed that the meka-dread no longer has the ability to repair.
The Ramshackle Monster rule seems rather pointless. It's likely to save you a wound or so, but it's a very complicated way to go about that. For all the streamlining, 8th edition still suffers from GW rules writers' apparent need to make new rules for every unit rather than working with the tools that the profile gives them.
Perfect Organism wrote: Very disappointed that the meka-dread no longer has the ability to repair.
The Ramshackle Monster rule seems rather pointless. It's likely to save you a wound or so, but it's a very complicated way to go about that. For all the streamlining, 8th edition still suffers from GW rules writers' apparent need to make new rules for every unit rather than working with the tools that the profile gives them.
On the other hand I'm liking the BS 4+ that doesn't degrade. Just a pity it can't swap both claws for Kannon…
Perfect Organism wrote: Very disappointed that the meka-dread no longer has the ability to repair.
The Ramshackle Monster rule seems rather pointless. It's likely to save you a wound or so, but it's a very complicated way to go about that. For all the streamlining, 8th edition still suffers from GW rules writers' apparent need to make new rules for every unit rather than working with the tools that the profile gives them.
I'm not sure how to interpret your last sentence, but the thought process is that they write rules for the model. It's an appropriate rule that adds to the feel of the model without making a model with just another 4++ or 5++.
Luciferian wrote: Damn, I was really hoping the marines would have interchangeable shoulder pads. A few days ago I ordered $40 worth of Dark Angels pads
Aw man that sucks, If I hadn't so many spare Space Wolves transfers I might have done the same.
Alot of independent online retailers are warning that pre-order stocks of Dark Imperium are running low. Buy now to avoid disappointment. The place I pre-ordered from told me that they will be dispatching orders as soon as stock arrives (usually Wednesday). I might get mine on release day, all being well
Luciferian wrote: Damn, I was really hoping the marines would have interchangeable shoulder pads. A few days ago I ordered $40 worth of Dark Angels pads
The multipart ones will. The are monopose and so dont.
Luciferian wrote: Damn, I was really hoping the marines would have interchangeable shoulder pads. A few days ago I ordered $40 worth of Dark Angels pads
The multipart ones will. The are monopose and so dont.
Good to know, now I don't have to save up my shoulderpad bits. I am still figuring on blinging out the characters at least with DA accessories, though. I wonder if I could attach the Deathwing sergeant's wings to the Primaris captain's helmet cowl to make him look more like a Company Master...
MLaw wrote: Do people seriously not do squash/press casting anymore?
Trying to decide if I'll be sculpting DA/BT robes on my monopose or running as more of a traditional armor + purity seals type of setup..
What is squash/press casting?
So I know it as press molding but it basically goes:
1. Get together one shoulderpad you wish to copy, some vaseline or similar substance and some GS and a stick (example: pencils, sprue, ect) and a pair of gloves.
2. Build a wad of Green Stuff on the end of your stick so that it forms a cone flared towards the bottom with at least a third to half extending past the end of the stick and set aside to stiffen slightly. Vaseline coated fingertips will keep it from sticking to the gloves.
3. Coat the surface of the shoulder pad with vaseline to prevent adhesion to the green stuff.
4. Press the flared end of the GS against the textured surface so that it completely covers the surface and leave to set.
5. After setting remove the shoulderpad and you now have a textured press mold.
6. To use the mold coat it with vaseline and then press a small amount of green stuff onto the surface of your blank shoulder pad before pressing your mold onto it. If done correctly when you remove the mold you will have a copy of your design that only needs a little cleaning o to removed the excess GS from.
MLaw wrote: Do people seriously not do squash/press casting anymore?
Trying to decide if I'll be sculpting DA/BT robes on my monopose or running as more of a traditional armor + purity seals type of setup..
What is squash/press casting?
So I know it as press molding but it basically goes:
1. Get together one shoulderpad you wish to copy, some vaseline or similar substance and some GS and a stick (example: pencils, sprue, ect) and a pair of gloves.
2. Build a wad of Green Stuff on the end of your stick so that it forms a cone flared towards the bottom with at least a third to half extending past the end of the stick and set aside to stiffen slightly. Vaseline coated fingertips will keep it from sticking to the gloves.
3. Coat the surface of the shoulder pad with vaseline to prevent adhesion to the green stuff.
4. Press the flared end of the GS against the textured surface so that it completely covers the surface and leave to set.
5. After setting remove the shoulderpad and you now have a textured press mold.
6. To use the mold coat it with vaseline and then press a small amount of green stuff onto the surface of your blank shoulder pad before pressing your mold onto it. If done correctly when you remove the mold you will have a copy of your design that only needs a little cleaning o to removed the excess GS from.
Basically this but be careful how much vaseline you use.. I might go with baby oil/mineral oil.. but the idea is exactly right. You don't "need" to attach a stick.. but it can make life easier. I do this for purity seals, shoulder pads, some vehicle details.. Anything that you're going to want a few more of and it's really just a very basic shape.
When I press it onto the blank pad I make sure I have just enough that a little GS squishes out the side of the mold. You can let it set with the mold on as long as you lubed it. If the piece hardens and it isn't lined up properly you can peel it off carefully with a x-acto and glue it back on in the correct position. If you mix a tiny bit of FIMO or Sculpey into the GS it will be much much more pliable/mold-friendly. Back in the day, if you got a pewter marine of any kind, they usually had molded on pads and this was one of two ways to get the emblems on. The other was to buy the pewter pads with the emblems.. then cut the pad off and sand it down.. that .. was not fun..
Anyone trying to figure this out but not quite getting it.. check youtube.. I'm sure there are videos on it.. then if you still have questions shoot a PM and I'll try to help. There's literally no reason you guys/gals can't have chapter icons on your Primaris if you're willing to give this a shot.
MLaw wrote: Do people seriously not do squash/press casting anymore?
Trying to decide if I'll be sculpting DA/BT robes on my monopose or running as more of a traditional armor + purity seals type of setup..
You probably paint all your stuff, too.
On topic, the jump troops flying base makes me iffy on whether I want those guys.
Yeah I was watching a youtube video on that. The way the stand joins to the models jetpack is dodgy. Doesn't look like it will handle even a slight fall. Let alone being transported multiple times. Also you don't want to paint the model with it glued on or spray prime it. So glueing the stand on should be the last step and be done with a tiny amount of superglue. Superglue is also wonky cause it could blemish the paintjob, and taint the clarity of the clear stand. Also the base of the clear plastic should be glued towards the end/back of the actual 40mm or whatever base. Otherwise the model will be overhanging the lip of the base and be less stable.
privateer4hire wrote: If I do get primaris jump guys, I'll probably do my usual and glue them feet-to-base for better stability.
You can also put pieces of ruined building from a Imperial Sector or .. really whatever you want.. and pin them to that like they're flying through the rubble or something.. it's what I've done with my Crisis Suits and adds a nice effect and the pinning is in the foot.. OR.. you could buy those cinematic jet thrust plumes and attach those to the base.. 100% stable. There's loads of options.. but I agree with the consensus that those flight stands are dodgy looking..
BUT..
are we going to suddenly pretend that flight stands haven't been crappy for a long time? I can't tell you how many I've had snap off inside the hole and I've had to drill the damn thing out and either pin the stump of a stand or pray to bitsboxjesus that I can find a flight stand in the rubbermaid container full of bases I have..
Just so I know I'm not loosing my mind, has anyone else noticed the lack of a Mega Dred profile in the contents list for Index: Xenos? I'll be very disappointed if I can't use my first large Forgeworld model in my games going forward
warl0rdb0b wrote: Just so I know I'm not loosing my mind, has anyone else noticed the lack of a Mega Dred profile in the contents list for Index: Xenos? I'll be very disappointed if I can't use my first large Forgeworld model in my games going forward
Looks like I'm buying a meka dread orks are insane in this edition I'm even starting to question them myself the conga line shenanigans are ridiculous, but hey it's about time we had our edition.
Ragnar69 wrote: It can't be worse than a metal landspeeder on a flying base
I've got a Rogue Trader speeder that's yet to snap its post despite moving 5 times or more. They should bring back the weird hex flight stands those had, apparently.
Luciferian wrote: Damn, I was really hoping the marines would have interchangeable shoulder pads. A few days ago I ordered $40 worth of Dark Angels pads
It doesn't look to me that the shoulderpads would be too difficult to swap, even on these monopose models.
full price for a half finished game, then paid dlc for the rest of the content. HEYOOO.
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