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2017/06/09 13:05:34
Subject: 40k New Edition Summary - 8th June 17: Vox-Cast (behind the scenes) episode 4 (info in OP)
Von Marlon wrote: I'm guessing DG will be the first 8th codex/army considering pics of morty, new troops and terminators have been out for over a month now. I think we will get 4 of these based on the 4 main legions and a single supplement codex for the rest with similar for the other armies. Rules might well appear in WD and then accumulated into the supplement codex later.
At least I hope that is what happens as It keeps things neat. One of my biggest peeves with 7th were the masses of codices, supplements, datasheets, bits of paper and crap you needed just to play a game.
They've already confirmed annual "Chapter Approved" books on the Warhammer Community site.
2017/06/09 13:56:53
Subject: 40k New Edition Summary - 8th June 17: Vox-Cast (behind the scenes) episode 4 (info in OP)
Messiah wrote: No, Vect has. I really hope they dont base a unit on them..
There was a lot of detail put into their descriptions, with two specific types. Makes it seem like a dual-kit that hasn't been released.
Thats too bad. I dislike any "mirrored" units between armies, and I dont want to see units that should be extremely limited in quantity played all the time. They should expand on whats different in the armies, instead of bringing them closer..
2017/06/09 14:14:39
Subject: Re:40k New Edition Summary - 8th June 17: Vox-Cast (behind the scenes) episode 4 (info in OP)
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2017/06/09 14:22:24
Subject: Re:40k New Edition Summary - 8th June 17: Vox-Cast (behind the scenes) episode 4 (info in OP)
Von Marlon wrote: At least I hope that is what happens as It keeps things neat. One of my biggest peeves with 7th were the masses of codices, supplements, datasheets, bits of paper and crap you needed just to play a game.
Agreed - as with every edition of GW's flagship games, it's going to live and die on the Codices, because they are without fail the cause of every edition 'downfall' Right now we're in the fantastic 'pre-codex' period that we havn't seen since 3rd edition launched, and there's every indication that balance can be maintained, but all it takes is one dodgy codex and we're right back in the same mess.
It depends what exactly the Codices are this time around - my belief is that they need to go back to being short 'supplements' (like in 3rd edition!) that simply add a few unit/wargear options and cut back on the 'guff' so as to not try to justify an obscene £20-£30 price tag for each one. I would like to see them as 'add-ons' to the Index books, rather than replacements, since it's a damn cheeky move to sell the Index books (for far more than they should be, in my opinion) only to completely replace them in very short order.
I'm all psyched up to enjoy the 'pre-Codex' time for as long as it lasts, but after that my skepticism alarm will be on standby again. Prove me wrong, GW. Prove that you've changed!
Yeah, the way they handle this from here on out could easily make it or break it for me. 8th edition has me excited to try and start playing again, but only if they can maintain some kind of relative balance. Following the same old model of codex-style releases will almost surely put us back in the same position we used to be in, while once again making it hard to keep up with the game as we constantly need to buy $50-60 supplements to stay current. Sadly it sounds like they're going to be doing that regardless, with the promise that Death Guard are going to be getting their own book very soon that will add new units and make them stronger (as they're currently the "weakest" faction). Tons of people have been complaining about "lack of flavor" which we're told will come back in later books, too.
Makes me wonder what the point was, honestly. Why go through the effort of making such a massive change, playtesting it and working to make it as balanced as possible, going as far as to say this has been the most playtested set of rules they've ever released, release all the rules for every army at the same time which is probably the only way to ensure that everything is balanced out against each other as best as possible, only to feth it all up within months by going back to what they were doing before? Why charge people for the index books knowing full well they're going to be temporary?
Desubot wrote: Why isnt Slut Wars: The Sexpocalypse a real game dammit.
"It's easier to change the rules than to get good at the game."
2017/06/09 14:49:48
Subject: 40k New Edition Summary - 8th June 17: Vox-Cast (behind the scenes) episode 4 (info in OP)
Von Marlon wrote: At least I hope that is what happens as It keeps things neat. One of my biggest peeves with 7th were the masses of codices, supplements, datasheets, bits of paper and crap you needed just to play a game.
Agreed - as with every edition of GW's flagship games, it's going to live and die on the Codices, because they are without fail the cause of every edition 'downfall' Right now we're in the fantastic 'pre-codex' period that we havn't seen since 3rd edition launched, and there's every indication that balance can be maintained, but all it takes is one dodgy codex and we're right back in the same mess.
It depends what exactly the Codices are this time around - my belief is that they need to go back to being short 'supplements' (like in 3rd edition!) that simply add a few unit/wargear options and cut back on the 'guff' so as to not try to justify an obscene £20-£30 price tag for each one. I would like to see them as 'add-ons' to the Index books, rather than replacements, since it's a damn cheeky move to sell the Index books (for far more than they should be, in my opinion) only to completely replace them in very short order.
I'm all psyched up to enjoy the 'pre-Codex' time for as long as it lasts, but after that my skepticism alarm will be on standby again. Prove me wrong, GW. Prove that you've changed!
Again though, part of the issue with codex creep was an underpriced unit/army (or overpriced unit/army) was basically stuck there until the next codex came out. In the case, one overpowered army then forced further following armies to match that same power, as it was the only effective way to keep any short of reprinting the previous book with adjusted prices. The fact they plan to update point values every year means that it shouldn't be as big an issue.
It will be a problem early on, because some armies will get codices first, which will generally make them better. Just having a full psychic table, a few extra rules or warlord traits, and artifacts will be enough to push them ever so slightly ahead. Probably not enough to destroy balance, but expect to see issues.
Though, interestingly, someone pointed out it could be that armies which look to be a bit better than others now might be deliberately compensating for not getting a codex with such benefits in the near future. Which would be a mixed blessing to say the least.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/09 14:50:02
2017/06/09 15:22:46
Subject: 40k New Edition Summary - 8th June 17: Vox-Cast (behind the scenes) episode 4 (info in OP)
Why charge people for the index books knowing full well they're going to be temporary?
Money.
I love the new direction, I'm feeling positive about the game and company in general, but let's not delude ourselves here; it's all about making money off customers.
It truly will be the test over the next 6-12 months if they can restrain themselves from power-creep.
At least if they do, we can always just fold back to the indices and dream of what could have been...
Right now though, let's enjoy what we have.
Also, worth remembering that when the codexes proper show up, the index books may be invalidated but outside of a tournament setting nothing is stopping you from still using them. So they could be a cheap way of trying out a new army or familiarising yourself with the other armies.
2017/06/09 16:10:13
Subject: 40k New Edition Summary - 8th June 17: Vox-Cast (behind the scenes) episode 4 (info in OP)
I fully expect several entries in the indexes (or their lack, such as the looted wagon) are the last we will ever see of them. I fully expect armies to get a few new units when their codex drop,but I very much doubt that a classic unit that didn't make it to the index will miraculously appear in the codex - if it was popular enough/GW wanted to support it, I sincerely think it would have been in the index. At least, with their handling of AoS, this is the impression I'm getting.
(I expect a LOT of Primaris releases over this year, including a codex drop right after 8th release, and then again in a year when the model line has been further fleshed out and can replace the current marine line)
However, the appearance of Rough Riders baffles me. I can't find the models on GW's sit for sale (at least, in US) - wonder if they're planning to redo those models? Personally, I've got the really old ones, with Necromundia spiders on them, and a mounted commisar with a plasma pistol....
It never ends well
2017/06/09 16:18:58
Subject: 40k New Edition Summary - 8th June 17: Vox-Cast (behind the scenes) episode 4 (info in OP)
Sidstyler wrote: Why charge people for the index books knowing full well they're going to be temporary?
Because many of us would rather pay to have those rules in an official printed capacity, instead of reading them off of a tablet, or printing them ourselves.
However, the appearance of Rough Riders baffles me. I can't find the models on GW's sit for sale (at least, in US) - wonder if they're planning to redo those models?
I imagine they will return in 8E. I'd be delighted if their mount was something more alien than a horse.
Looted Wagons didn't make it in to the last codex, and there is no official kit sold for it, so I imagine it's gone. It a White Dwarf Dataslate, much like Gerantius, who didn't make it into the 7E Imperial Knights Codex.
Did Gerantius make it into Imperial Index 2 ?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/09 16:26:37
Sidstyler wrote: Why charge people for the index books knowing full well they're going to be temporary?
Because many of us would rather pay to have those rules in an official printed capacity, instead of reading them off of a tablet, or printing them ourselves.
Okay, so why aren't they available as a free PDF and as a bought book?
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2017/06/09 16:53:03
Subject: 40k New Edition Summary - 8th June 17: Vox-Cast (behind the scenes) episode 4 (info in OP)
The thing is with the index books we have no idea how "temporary" some of them may be. We may get 2/3 years out of some of them. People bought Traitors hate, the Deathwatch codex etc and barely got six to twelve months out of them, and at a far inflated price.
Would have I preferred free downloads? Obviously. But with these cheaper than normal books at least 99% of armies and units are able to be officially played in 8th edition from day one. I really think GW would have drawn criticism either way but personally I think they have dealt with it in a pretty effective method.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/09 16:54:06
Okay, so why aren't they available as a free PDF and as a bought book?
Same reason the latest Stephen King book isn't available as a free PDF. There's value in the PDF, that people will pay for.
What you meant to ask was, why were the scrolls free for AoS? And you know why they were, there was little value people were willing to pay for. GW needed to give those away to accommodate old fantasy players.
2017/06/09 17:03:38
Subject: 40k New Edition Summary - 8th June 17: Vox-Cast (behind the scenes) episode 4 (info in OP)
Okay, so why aren't they available as a free PDF and as a bought book?
Same reason the latest Stephen King book isn't available as a free PDF. There's value in the PDF, that people will pay for.
What you meant to ask was, why were the scrolls free for AoS? And you know why they were, there was little value people were willing to pay for. GW needed to give those away to accommodate old fantasy players.
The issue is that the customer has no way of actually judging the value of these books as they have no idea how long they will be relevant for. A Space Marine player who pays £15 for a book which is invalidated a couple of months later (maybe even sooner) by another book which possibly costs even more is gonna be pretty pissed and rightly so. Without knowing when further books are going to be released and what will be in them, we cannot judge with any confidence whether these indexes are good value compared to waiting for the next book.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/09 17:08:18
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2017/06/09 17:10:20
Subject: 40k New Edition Summary - 8th June 17: Vox-Cast (behind the scenes) episode 4 (info in OP)
Okay, so why aren't they available as a free PDF and as a bought book?
Same reason the latest Stephen King book isn't available as a free PDF. There's value in the PDF, that people will pay for.
What you meant to ask was, why were the scrolls free for AoS? And you know why they were, there was little value people were willing to pay for. GW needed to give those away to accommodate old fantasy players.
The issue is that the customer has no way of actually judging the value of these books as they have no idea how long they will be relevant for.
Unless you play Sisters! Then you're pretty confident that this is your codex now.
2017/06/09 17:10:46
Subject: 40k New Edition Summary - 8th June 17: Vox-Cast (behind the scenes) episode 4 (info in OP)
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
^That's really the crux of it. The average person here can run up that cost for a nice meal or a couple of pints...and these are some of the cheapest GW print materials we've seen in a long time.
They can still feth it up and charge $55-70 for a codex when it releases, but it'd be nice if we're seeing a more logical approach
2017/06/09 17:26:02
Subject: 40k New Edition Summary - 8th June 17: Vox-Cast (behind the scenes) episode 4 (info in OP)
Book costs the price of a HQ unit, and for the first time multiple factions per book.
Value on day one is you can play your army, with a few niche unit exceptions.
The situation is no different to 7th or any other edition in that there is no real certainty as to which codexes come after primaris and nurgle. There is nothing to say that the codexes will not contain the existing units and add new ones, without invalidating the rereleases.
2017/06/09 17:28:53
Subject: 40k New Edition Summary - 8th June 17: Vox-Cast (behind the scenes) episode 4 (info in OP)
The "First Blood" game (Howling Griffons vs Genestealer Cult) is happening on GW's Twitch channel now. I love the Rockgrinder charging into combat, even if it hasn't done much. I just hope Cruddace loses as penance for the two Tyranid Codices he utterly fethed in a row.
Chairman Aeon wrote: Same reason the latest Stephen King book isn't available as a free PDF. There's value in the PDF, that people will pay for.
Not a very good comparison. The Stephen King book isn't a "draft" whilst he finishes the real book. The Indexes are.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/09 17:30:55
Chairman Aeon wrote: Same reason the latest Stephen King book isn't available as a free PDF. There's value in the PDF, that people will pay for.
Not a very good comparison. The Stephen King book isn't a "draft" whilst he finishes the real book. The Indexes are.
Seems to be how the "game" industry works now a days though full price for a half finished game, then paid dlc for the rest of the content. HEYOOO.
Honestly these indexes seem fine. and outside of the most cut throat tourny scene im sure most people wont really care if you play with an older index for a while if a fresh updated one popped up.
MLaw wrote: Thanks guys, I haven't really had a chance to drill into the rules and figure that part out.
Megaknob - For shame! Apparently you haven't been an ork player all that long. The reason a lot of us have "looted wagons" isn't because of some bs looted wagon entry.. it's because we used to actually be able to loot vehicles. My looted demolisher and leman russ aren't that way because I liked Looted Wagons.. as a point of fact, I complained when they were changed AWAY from the looted Imperial counterparts. GW did the generalized looted wagon thing with kids' toys to themselves. If they had left it alone as regular looted imperial whatever in the first place those other things wouldn't have happened.. since the base vehicle was required to be a GW model anyway..
That said.. the point is.. regardless of your (apparently very un-Orky) feelings on the matter, many gamers own the very types of vehicle you're referring to. More importantly, in the days of old, the exact things you're referring to as shenanigans were actually ENCOURAGED by GW. Frankly, I find your outlook on the issue to be a bit elitist and honestly, devoid of any understanding of the actual love some people put into these models. None of my looted vehicles are not based on actual GW models and none of them were created as some sort of shenanigan... and apparently.. none of them are going to be usable.. save for my Looted Land Raider that will serve as a Battlewagon as it has. My other Battle Wagon is a converted Leman Russ that I spent a LOT of time on converting into a Brain Crusha themed Battlewagon.
As for my Battlefortress, it's actually not one of those really expensive Forgeworld ones that people can't use anymore.. It's also a conversion.. from a RT era Land Raider, Chimera, several Leman Russ components, and OOP bits/weapons/models that combined might end up being more than the original FW Battlefortress.. oh.. and the Deth Rolla is from FW..
Again.. regardless of what or why.. the fact is, this has happened and has left many of us stuck in a bad way. I do have a crap ton of Orks so I "can" field other lists in the interim but having units pulled out of rotation will never make people happy.. and pretending that we should just be content is a really bizarre and unsportsmanlike way of seeing this change IMO.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oguhmek wrote: KFF confers the save to the vehicle itself, right?
Not sure I'd use it to protect grots though, there are better uses.
I was under the understanding that any units in range would benefit.. so if the grots are screening a unit that has a KFF.. I would think both would get the save from that same KFF..
Started in collecting in 4th left at the start of 6th come back at the end of 7th, I remember fondly of my own leman Russ looted wagon, my whole army is on another forum much love went into my orks, sorry for sounding elitist I'm just thinking about it from GWs point of view.
You further strengthend my argument with I replaced it with other models, we are on the same team I even want to start some sort of group so GW will take notice of us.
Read my comments more carfuly.
2017/06/09 17:59:20
Subject: 40k New Edition Summary - 8th June 17: Vox-Cast (behind the scenes) episode 4 (info in OP)
Sidstyler wrote: Why charge people for the index books knowing full well they're going to be temporary?
Because many of us would rather pay to have those rules in an official printed capacity, instead of reading them off of a tablet, or printing them ourselves.
Okay, so why aren't they available as a free PDF and as a bought book?
because GW isn't a charity, but a for profit business maybe?
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: The thing is with the index books we have no idea how "temporary" some of them may be. We may get 2/3 years out of some of them. People bought Traitors hate, the Deathwatch codex etc and barely got six to twelve months out of them, and at a far inflated price.
Would have I preferred free downloads? Obviously. But with these cheaper than normal books at least 99% of armies and units are able to be officially played in 8th edition from day one. I really think GW would have drawn criticism either way but personally I think they have dealt with it in a pretty effective method.
Hmm...this makes me realize that if I wait a month or two, I can probably get the Imperial I index for pretty cheap because the full codex will likely be out, and folks won't be using them any more. Similar thing should happen with the others (I suspect the Xenos books and Imperial 2 will retain their value the longest, since it'll be a while before each army's full codex is out - the "Aeldari" should price drop once Craftworld Eldar codex is out). Just something to think about for the people who are buying the indexes to "know the enemy".
It never ends well
2017/06/09 18:48:04
Subject: 40k New Edition Summary - 8th June 17: Vox-Cast (behind the scenes) episode 4 (info in OP)
It will be a problem early on, because some armies will get codices first, which will generally make them better. Just having a full psychic table, a few extra rules or warlord traits, and artifacts will be enough to push them ever so slightly ahead. Probably not enough to destroy balance, but expect to see issues.
Most importantly, faction Strategems. We should expect these to be very powerful, and more powerful for smaller factions, since they're the only benefit for limiting your army selection, to our knowledge so far.
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
2017/06/09 19:07:25
Subject: Re:40k New Edition Summary - 8th June 17: Vox-Cast (behind the scenes) episode 4 (info in OP)
Even after your faction get a proper codex, the index will still be handy to have for reference on factions you don't play. I only play Necrons right now (though working on my Blood Ravens slowly), but I eventually plan to have all 5 indices to use as a reference.
2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress 2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
2017/06/09 19:14:35
Subject: 40k New Edition Summary - 8th June 17: Vox-Cast (behind the scenes) episode 4 (info in OP)
Why are people complaining about the index books, every one complained the game was unbalanced, they only way to sort it out properly and thoroughly was a reboot, thus spawned the new books, the reason they did not release all of the new individual faction books is because that would be a gargantuan task to undertake.
We can play with the simplified books for now while they get the proper codex books ready, I also think it's a massive world wide beta, so we can properly see what is balanced and what is not.
full price for a half finished game, then paid dlc for the rest of the content. HEYOOO.
2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)