Seriously, possible hyperbolic reaction. Was that a terrible codex? I feel like that’s competing with Grey Knights for useless...
I would like to be wrong, anyone see anything intriguing?
Ahriman becomes a Daemon when he’s on a disc, maybe something there.
Magnus is really good with Treason of Tzeentch now.
The Mutalith is...underwhelming, although relatively cheap at first glance.
Scarab Occult Marines are 199 points for 5 guys that you don’t have as many options as normal Terminators. Super expensive for 10 with the full complement of heavy weapons, CSM Terminators are just better, would love to see math to the contrary.
Tzaangors look good, but they lost any hint of the Daemon keyword, really reduces their synergy potential. They are good in hand to hand for 7 points, S/T 4, pretty solid, basically Chaos Scouts.
I kind of suspected this was the codex they’d get based on previews, but that was the definition of uninspired.
I think you'll see Enlightened at top tables as part of soup lists. Otherwise... eh. It's certainly no GK codex, I'd put it closer to the middle of the pack. More along the lines of AdMech.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: Seriously, possible hyperbolic reaction. Was that a terrible codex? I feel like that’s competing with Grey Knights for useless...
I would like to be wrong, anyone see anything intriguing?
Ahriman becomes a Daemon when he’s on a disc, maybe something there.
Magnus is really good with Treason of Tzeentch now.
The Mutalith is...underwhelming, although relatively cheap at first glance.
Scarab Occult Marines are 199 points for 5 guys that you don’t have as many options as normal Terminators. Super expensive for 10 with the full complement of heavy weapons, CSM Terminators are just better, would love to see math to the contrary.
Tzaangors look good, but they lost any hint of the Daemon keyword, really reduces their synergy potential. They are good in hand to hand for 7 points, S/T 4, pretty solid, basically Chaos Scouts.
I kind of suspected this was the codex they’d get based on previews, but that was the definition of uninspired.
Chaos terminators have a lot of options, but in general they are worse point per point than scarab termi. Inferno bolters are just too good and sinergize really well with VotLW.
This is a well done codex, both competitive and full of character. It's a minidex though, so we'll see it used a lot as part of soups and less by itself.
Time will tell, really. It is impossible to gauge the strength of a codex before a large number of codex lists has hit the table against other codex lists. Here are my preliminary observations:
1) Unlike GK the Thousand Sons codex gets the 'army of psykers' theme right. TS has access to 18 spells including some of the best in the game. Making the Wizard sergeants into real casters was also a great move, and the +6" to spell range is a both thematic, powerful and unique buff.
2) GW continues to struggle with costing elite infantry, and I think rubrics and scarabs will both need points reductions to be viable in a competitive setting. We saw the same pattern with plague marines and intercessors, both needing downwards adjustments post-codex.
3) Magnus has received a number of minor nerfs which, together with the changeling sledgehammer nerf, means we will see much less of him.
4) TS continues to struggle with good AT options. Las preds are a possibility, but they tend to die if you get 2nd turn.
5) The other HQ options in the TS codex are very good. Ahriman is a steal, and the TS Daemon prince is probably the best DP in the game. The stock DP model will need a lot of work before it looks anything like a TS model, though.
6) Tzaangors are pretty good, and the bray horn is like adrenal glands, but at only 10 points for the entire squad. They feel like a poor man's boyz, which is exactly what TS needs. Now we just need Flash Gitz to become a poor man's rubrics, then the Ork codex would be half done.
7) The relics and warlord traits are nice and varied, and I especially like the dark matter crystal. The Stratagems feels kind of boring, though.
I think the Codex is really well balanced. Which may be a problem.
I also think that you'd better like beaky angry blue people.
We have enough stuff that's great, so that we could probably leverage a competitive list out of the codex, but it would have only a few Thousand Sons in it (Ahriman and maybe a squad of SOTs). How you feel about that will determine how you feel about the codex. Me, I think it's cool, but I can see why some old grumbly grognards are unhappy about the Tzaangors' ascendency.
Yeah, the new Enlightened are crazy good, but one of the most expensive points/£ units in the game. Colour me shocked!
Finally, we have the most pimping Daemon Prince in the game now, which is awesome news, as it's succhhh a fun unit to play.
To conclude, the Codex is good, I'm excited about playing with it, and it's brought my Sons back to the top of my three armies, in terms of eagerness to get them on the table. I understand, however, some of the salt that's flowed - it's just that I refuse to sup from the sodium chloride cup.
grouchoben wrote: I think the Codex is really well balanced. Which may be a problem.
I also think that you'd better like beaky angry blue people.
We have enough stuff that's great, so that we could probably leverage a competitive list out of the codex, but it would have only a few Thousand Sons in it (Ahriman and maybe a squad of SOTs). How you feel about that will determine how you feel about the codex. Me, I think it's cool, but I can see why some old grumbly grognards are unhappy about the Tzaangors' ascendency.
Yeah, the new Enlightened are crazy good, but one of the most expensive points/£ units in the game. Colour me shocked!
Finally, we have the most pimping Daemon Prince in the game now, which is awesome news, as it's succhhh a fun unit to play.
To conclude, the Codex is good, I'm excited about playing with it, and it's brought my Sons back to the top of my three armies, in terms of eagerness to get them on the table. I understand, however, some of the salt that's flowed - it's just that I refuse to sup from the sodium chloride cup.
I was of this stance as well. But the more time that went by the more the salt started to flow. It really was a cash grab codex it is looking like. Very little support or attention to the actual 1k sons and more on their pet birds.
To the OP. There is a 33+ page thread of salt on the front page (currently) which goes over everything is great detail. I am unsure if this was a codex inspired by pure cash grab on getting AoS kits to 40k players or if it was a rush job and hopefully we will get more attention in years to come. Either way, if you are a crunchy player than you better like collecting plastic blue Bird Men.
All in all, its certainly more than what we had last month and there are good sides to the codex. The magnus nerf was unneeded and he just required a points increase. I doubt you will ever see him in any tournament lists going forward, the risk of losing him to alpha strikes is just to much. His Defense getting lowered combined with the loss of Deep Strike have left him a big red target. I will still use him in normal games. But the salt that has flowed is mainly about the rubrics taking a back seat to blue birds. And it is understandable. A real problem is that Our mini dex of last year really rewarded and pushed hardcore for the player to stack rubrics to a insane degree. Many people built their forces such a way (including myself) and are now peeved they have to literally re buy the army to take advantage of al ot of the new dex.
Now GW is not a stranger to planned obsolescence and has made use of it many many many times in the past as a sales tactic. But I feel they went to far in this release. Rubrics SHOULD have had more focus, maybe not a 50/50 split but a lot more than what they got.
Honestly having played a full rubrics army, with the new rules, I'd say we're in a good place if you use the full range available to us, including FW.
I have a contemptor dread, leviathan dread and hellforged predator. They're great additions to any thousand sons army while still being fluffy additions to the army. Just yesterday I used a contemptor with multi-melta and deathclaw w/ soulburner to great success.
More variety would've been nice and Tzaangors are (sadly) a great addition to the army ruleswise, but they're not required to have a fun game.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: Seriously, possible hyperbolic reaction. Was that a terrible codex? I feel like that’s competing with Grey Knights for useless...
I would like to be wrong, anyone see anything intriguing?
Ahriman becomes a Daemon when he’s on a disc, maybe something there.
Magnus is really good with Treason of Tzeentch now.
The Mutalith is...underwhelming, although relatively cheap at first glance.
Scarab Occult Marines are 199 points for 5 guys that you don’t have as many options as normal Terminators. Super expensive for 10 with the full complement of heavy weapons, CSM Terminators are just better, would love to see math to the contrary.
Tzaangors look good, but they lost any hint of the Daemon keyword, really reduces their synergy potential. They are good in hand to hand for 7 points, S/T 4, pretty solid, basically Chaos Scouts.
I kind of suspected this was the codex they’d get based on previews, but that was the definition of uninspired.
This was a cash grab plain and simple. People shouldn't buy the codex or any of the models.
Tzaangors should be priced around 10-12 points but are still at 7. With 2 AURAS they are hitting on 2s and rerolling 1s ending up with a 97% hit ratio. 61 attacks on a 30 man squad. With little support they can be hitting with damn near every attack and Veterans of the long War stratagem allows them to wound everything on at least a five plus. A 10 man squad can put 5 wounds on a LR battle tank in one round of CC, given a full turn of CC they can severly cripple a 150 point model. 3 30 man squads can net you 244 S4 AP -1 attacks. Having casted 0 spells. You can Deepstrike all 3 on turn 1 if you want, or you can DS 1 unit at a time cast Glamour and Weaver on them making hyper durable for their points, and then warp time them in which all but guarantees the charge, have a mutalith buff the str and AP of the unit and now your getting 61 S5 AP-2 attacks which hit on 2s rerolling, on a T 4 model that has 1 wound and a 4+ invul save with a -1 to hit, for 7 PPM. 210 points for a 30 man squad.
How much damage can that unit do?
400 points of GEQ
830 points of MEQ
903 points vs TEQ
578 points of PM
976 points of RM
2 Landraiders a turn with wounds to spare.
You can do this 3 times in 1 game and pay less then 1 k points for everything you need. You would spend 4 CP per turn but have acess to a relic which gives you CP and can just bring cultists with Apostles to get a bunch of CP for cheap.
There are plunty of really good combos, in fact they are broken beyond belief. Just dont bring any kind of acutal TS in your TS army.
I would like to be wrong, anyone see anything intriguing?
The Mutalith is...underwhelming, although relatively cheap at first glance.
An 18" mortal wound bubble is nothing to sneeze at if you can roll the 3+.
Scarab Occult Marines are 199 points for 5 guys that you don’t have as many options as normal Terminators. Super expensive for 10 with the full complement of heavy weapons, CSM Terminators are just better, would love to see math to the contrary.
SoT can have a SR and HMR in a squad of 5. CT get just the reaper in 5. I'm not sure you'd want to risk blowing up terminators with plasma (otherwise expensive babysitter required) so combi-melta it is, which is 53 points a model to SoT 40. 5 CT fully loaded is 263 (253 plasma). SoT come in at 239.
4 S8 AP4 DD6 and 4 S7 AP1 D1
or
8/16 S4 AP2, 4 S5 AP3, and 2 S8 AP2 DD3
PLUS a psyker
As mentioned above VotLW improves the SoT guns far more than the CT ones. SoT can re-deepstrike as well.
Tzaangors look good, but they lost any hint of the Daemon keyword, really reduces their synergy potential. They are good in hand to hand for 7 points, S/T 4, pretty solid, basically Chaos Scouts.
As a codex Tsons it has failed quite badly, there is no argument that will convince me otherwise here, it failed to provide some very easy changes in the lineup that didnt even require models, it focused too much on non Tson units to be called Codex Thousand sons.
HOWEVER!!!!!!!
As codex Tzeench Deamonkin I think it has succeeded quite convincingly, I like the Gors, I like Tsons, and I like the mix.
I've played three games so far with thousand sons dominated lists, using gors and daemons as auxiliary as I always do, and I'm very happy with it. Our psykers are flexible as they once we're in 7th but thankfully without the vast swathe of worthless options and 4-5 auto include powers. Rubrics could use 1-2 more interesting Stratagems, but their bread and butter Stratagems like Power-swap, Reroll to avoid perils, and Votlw all work very well for them.
You really see the impact of tzaangors because (in my experience at least) they're a tempo piece that causes huge damage turn 1, then dies because they're T4 5++. They do damage, then they die and the rubrics carry the game to completion in later turns.
The new codex is absolutely fantastic. No idea why people are complaining about it.
The book has so many good (or even great) units, Warlord Traits, Stratagems, relics and physchic powers... On top of that you get a whole range of awesome looking plastic models (which you can also use in Age of Sigmar). Seriously, what's not to like about it? In my opinion it is on par with the new Tyranids codex and way better designed than Death Guard (which is already quite a good codex). Combine it with the Chaos Daemons codex and you have a huge amount of competitive and cool options to choose from.
Even Rubric Marines and Scarab Terminators are good.
Comparing Thousand Sons to Grey Knights is so wrong, I can't even believe it... Power-wise it should easily belong in the upper half/third of the armies released so far.
Magnus getting a few changes really puts him where he should be. He's still a powerhouse, but fighting him requires less bad rolling on the enemy armor saves to kill him. Much less luck dependent.
In short:
Psykers are now for 90% buff bots for shooting/assault units (tzaangors). Which in my opinion is unfluffy as for 40k thousand sons psykers (read: Exalted sorcerers).
Not how i want to play my thousand sons and certainly not why i bought them last year. So strong or weak codex it doesn't really matter to me. I've lost interest in their play style, so i stored everything i everything i own.
Despite what people say, I still think Thousand sons look like a great army to play. Will we be winning all the tournaments? Of course not, but they are still a very fieldable and playable army with great synergy and decent rules.
Are they perfect? No. Are they fun? Of course, and that's pretty much all that matters if you ask me
Kharne the Befriender wrote: Despite what people say, I still think Thousand sons look like a great army to play. Will we be winning all the tournaments? Of course not, but they are still a very fieldable and playable army with great synergy and decent rules.
Are they perfect? No. Are they fun? Of course, and that's pretty much all that matters if you ask me
Have you looked at the codex?
We will probably be winning a lot of tournaments with Tzaangor spam.
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Scallywag wrote: Even Rubric Marines and Scarab Terminators are good.
Comparing Thousand Sons to Grey Knights is so wrong, I can't even believe it... Power-wise it should easily belong in the upper half/third of the armies released so far.
How are they good?
I agree the list potential is totally different. We are probably either the best or one of the best armies in the game if you run only Tzaangors and cultusts.
Tzaangors are good and one of the more competitive builds, but that doesn't invalidate other builds from existing. Plenty of people play for the fun of the game. Rubrics and Scarabs are not so broken that they are unusable. They are pretty good units, especially against certain matchups like armies that have a lot of 1D attacks.
This whole thing reminds me of Death Guard with all the buffs to Pox Walkers. So many people were coming out saying Pox Walker spam was the most viable build when it was released. Yet you really don't see that many of them played.
Kharne the Befriender wrote: Despite what people say, I still think Thousand sons look like a great army to play. Will we be winning all the tournaments? Of course not, but they are still a very fieldable and playable army with great synergy and decent rules.
Are they perfect? No. Are they fun? Of course, and that's pretty much all that matters if you ask me
Have you looked at the codex?
We will probably be winning a lot of tournaments with Tzaangor spam
My apologies I should have specified, I had a balanced unit list in mind when I typed that.
Kharne the Befriender wrote: Despite what people say, I still think Thousand sons look like a great army to play. Will we be winning all the tournaments? Of course not, but they are still a very fieldable and playable army with great synergy and decent rules.
Are they perfect? No. Are they fun? Of course, and that's pretty much all that matters if you ask me
Have you looked at the codex?
We will probably be winning a lot of tournaments with Tzaangor spam.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Scallywag wrote: Even Rubric Marines and Scarab Terminators are good.
Comparing Thousand Sons to Grey Knights is so wrong, I can't even believe it... Power-wise it should easily belong in the upper half/third of the armies released so far.
How are they good?
I agree the list potential is totally different. We are probably either the best or one of the best armies in the game if you run only Tzaangors and cultusts.
Unlike most other Terminators, Scarabs are actually quite a good unit. They have really strong shooting attacks (especially when buffed) and can use Warptime to get into close combat (you can cast it with a +3/+4 bonus, making it highly reliable). They murder other infantry and can even kill vehicles. I plan to use a unit of 10 in a competitive list.
Rubrics are also not bad. Webway Infiltration, the ability to choose a spell, Veterans of the Long War and Prescience are all huge buffs for them. There might be some better options, but they are definitely playable.
Zhan wrote: In short:
Psykers are now for 90% buff bots for shooting/assault units (tzaangors). Which in my opinion is unfluffy as for 40k thousand sons psykers (read: Exalted sorcerers).
Not how i want to play my thousand sons and certainly not why i bought them last year. So strong or weak codex it doesn't really matter to me. I've lost interest in their play style, so i stored everything i everything i own.
The last time I saw someone play Magnus with the new rules, he used Infernal Gateway with a +4 to cast and dropped 19 mortal wounds on a clump of units.
You can still use psykers for offensive purposes. It's even easier now with 6 offensive spells to choose from even outside of smite. And they're useful for stuff that shooting doesn't do, like sniping characters and dropping summoned spawn directly into close combat.
Something I noticed, the Thousand Sons version of the "Fire Frenzy" stratagem (allows Helbrutes to fire twice) says THOUSAND SONS HELBRUTE. The CSM and Death Guard versions just say Helbrute (not the keyword). So, since they FAQ'd the Forgeworld Hellforged Contemptors and Leviathans to have HELBRUTE keyword, this means as of right now Thousand Sons are the only ones who can use that stratagem on the Forgeworld dreadnoughts because GW cannot get keywords right.
Wayniac wrote: Something I noticed, the Thousand Sons version of the "Fire Frenzy" stratagem (allows Helbrutes to fire twice) says THOUSAND SONS HELBRUTE. The CSM and Death Guard versions just say Helbrute (not the keyword). So, since they FAQ'd the Forgeworld Hellforged Contemptors and Leviathans to have HELBRUTE keyword, this means as of right now Thousand Sons are the only ones who can use that stratagem on the Forgeworld dreadnoughts because GW cannot get keywords right.
As many times as I've seen the HELBRUTE versus Helbrute question brought up on Facebook, I believe that the 'Fire Frenzy' stratagem works exactly as intended. We'll find out for sure next month.
Wayniac wrote: Something I noticed, the Thousand Sons version of the "Fire Frenzy" stratagem (allows Helbrutes to fire twice) says THOUSAND SONS HELBRUTE. The CSM and Death Guard versions just say Helbrute (not the keyword). So, since they FAQ'd the Forgeworld Hellforged Contemptors and Leviathans to have HELBRUTE keyword, this means as of right now Thousand Sons are the only ones who can use that stratagem on the Forgeworld dreadnoughts because GW cannot get keywords right.
As many times as I've seen the HELBRUTE versus Helbrute question brought up on Facebook, I believe that the 'Fire Frenzy' stratagem works exactly as intended. We'll find out for sure next month.
Using Fire Frenzy on a Leviathan with dual butcher arrays is brutal.
Reading trough the codex right now and my first impression is: "I'm going to have a lot of fun with this codex."
It's probably not a codex for the WAAC-player who attend tournaments and there are some missed opportunities, but I'm very much looking forward to play my Thousand Sons again.
MinscS2 wrote: Reading trough the codex right now and my first impression is: "I'm going to have a lot of fun with this codex."
It's probably not a codex for the WAAC-player who attend tournaments and there are some missed opportunities, but I'm very much looking forward to play my Thousand Sons again.
Nothing so egregious that they can't fix with an FAQ, too. All is well.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: Seriously, possible hyperbolic reaction. Was that a terrible codex? I feel like that’s competing with Grey Knights for useless...
I would like to be wrong, anyone see anything intriguing?
Ahriman becomes a Daemon when he’s on a disc, maybe something there.
Magnus is really good with Treason of Tzeentch now.
The Mutalith is...underwhelming, although relatively cheap at first glance.
Scarab Occult Marines are 199 points for 5 guys that you don’t have as many options as normal Terminators. Super expensive for 10 with the full complement of heavy weapons, CSM Terminators are just better, would love to see math to the contrary.
Tzaangors look good, but they lost any hint of the Daemon keyword, really reduces their synergy potential. They are good in hand to hand for 7 points, S/T 4, pretty solid, basically Chaos Scouts.
I kind of suspected this was the codex they’d get based on previews, but that was the definition of uninspired.
Look, I get that many people are disappointed that GW focused more on the Tzaangors and mutant stuff than the classic Rubrics, but really....how anyone with even the slightest hint of competitive background could think this codex is Grey Knight tier is beyond my comprehension.
a) Daemon Princes are top units for Chaos in general and we have the best ones hands down thanks to the mix of a nice defensive buff (4+ invulnerable save) and uniquely casting and knowing an extra power, with access to three disciplines.
b) When did Tzaangors have the Daemon keyword? Besides, the Enlightened and Shaman have it. In any case, Tzaangors are absurdly good if you stack buffs on them, they are point for point one of the deadlier units in the game if you support them right. We even get the cheapest fight-twice stratagem in the game at 2CP on a unit (Tzaangors) that is already hyper efficient without it.
c) Enlightened are flexible and very points efficient, harder to kill than a regular Space Marine with double the mobility, far superior shooting and combat, etc all for only a few points more.
d) Mutaliths are at worst a cheap distraction unit that buffs your combat units, at best they are a terror on the battlefield if your opponent doesn't properly deal with them; drop it to half its total wounds and suddenly it starts slinging mortal wounds to every unit within 18" on a 3+, rolled once. Besides, it mega-buffs Tzaangors, Pink Horrors and pretty much any other Tzeentch combat unit you can think of.
e) Compare an Exalted Sorcerer to a Chaos Lord or a Sorcerer. For a pittance in points you get the best of both worlds, casting two powers a turn and providing re-roll 1s to-hit. They might be inefficient next to Daemon Princes but that's because Princes are just that damned good.
f) Thousand Sons have crazy alpha strike potential, especially if you ally in Tzeentch Daemons. You can mimic the Bloodletter bomb with Tzaangors buffed by Warptime, you can clear chaff with Horrors or you can devastate anything in range with either Scarab Occult or Rubrics buffed by Prescience, Veterans of the Long War and re-roll 1s to-hit.
g) We get all the power stratagems of Chaos Space Marines (Daemonforge, Veterans of the Long War, etc) and some of our unique ones are really good, particularly the Webway stratagem.
h) Most flexible psykers in the entire game. 18 powers across three disciplines. A 1CP stratagem that allows any of our psykers to take any of those 18 powers. Two psykers capable of casting 3 powers each, 4 with a stratagem.
i) A severely under-priced special character (Ahriman) and a modestly priced special character that unlocks a nasty build that, while not top-tier tournament worthy, can still do really well against armies without the means to deal with it (Magnus).
j) Two extremely good relics when some armies are lucky enough to have one good one. The Dark Matter Crystal and Helm of the Third Eye are both near auto-includes, spending 1CP to take both will nearly always net you that CP back thanks to the Helm, and the Crystal gives you incredible mid-game deployment flexibility.
k) A great selection of Warlord Traits. You can either mega-buff a Daemon Prince or make a Terminator Sorcerer a baby Magnus/Ahriman for his first/subsequent psychic tests.
l) Lots of cross-army synergy with Tzeentch Daemons.
m) Able to more reliably buff power units like Fire Raptors thanks to psychic dominance.
n) A legion trait that rewards positioning and can invalidate a lot of classic anti-psyker defences.
The army is damned competitive. A lot of it is indeed down to Tzaangors and synergy between certain units, but underestimating just how strong this codex can be if used in the right hands is a grave mistake.
Rubrics and Scarabs could have used slight tweaks but, when you compare Scarabs to other Terminators and Rubrics to certain other elite infantry, both are in a decent spot. Psyker squad leaders are actually useful now to a degree, both units benefit a lot from psychic and stratagem buffs compared to many other units and Rubrics in particular gained the ability to Deep Strike. Tack on the Dark Matter Crystal removing one such unit from combat and depositing it where you need and the future of these two units is way brighter than it was prior to the codex even if the buffs are not as readily apparent. Lack of a unique stratagem for them sucks but given that they get such huge benefits from Veterans of the Long War and Chaos Familiar, I'm alright with that.
Not super happy that I'll need to get more Cultists and/or start getting Tzangors; running out of room as it is, and I had hoped that I would be fine getting 30k stuff and using it in 40k without needing a truckload of additional minis.
Oh well, now to decide between grungy Cultists, Guardsmen as "counts as" Cultists, and detail heavy Tzangors that require that I learn blending.
Almost everyone agreed that Rubrics were (and still are overpriced).
No points change at all to Rubrics.
Tzaangors are now massively OP.
What are the people tgat dont have a grand to drop on new models supposed to do? Lose every game till they can save up 1000 dollars to buy the new Tzaangor hotness?
Almost everyone agreed that Rubrics were (and still are overpriced).
No points change at all to Rubrics.
I know that this might come as a shock to you, but not everyone plays to win.
Alot of people just play to have fun, and/or because they like their army's fluff/models.
Rubrics could do with some slight tweaks, but they're far from trash, and in most lists they have their place.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: What are the people tgat dont have a grand to drop on new models supposed to do? Lose every game till they can save up 1000 dollars to buy the new Tzaangor hotness?
Play with the model you have?
Get a job and save up?
I'm being facetious since one hardly needs $1000 update their TS-army. $1000 is enough to buy you 220 Tzaangors and a Shaman, not sure anyone would need that many.
Almost everyone agreed that Rubrics were (and still are overpriced).
No points change at all to Rubrics.
Tzaangors are now massively OP.
What are the people tgat dont have a grand to drop on new models supposed to do? Lose every game till they can save up 1000 dollars to buy the new Tzaangor hotness?
So far, I like most of the dex. I think it's by far the best one we have ever had, even if it's not perfect. Just about every unit is playable, with some units being better than the others.
It's not perfect of course. I would have liked a few stratagems based on Traditional Thousand Sons units, but it's not the end of the world. It's a smaller dex than most others, but I'm hoping over time we start to add more models to the line that are legion oriented.
I feel like I can play a fairly fluffy list, and it still be pretty powerful. I also have the ability to put together a much nastier list as well. I have options, and I'm glad we got the Daemons and Tzaangor models to flesh out our range.
I'm quite excited about the new Codex. I've always like the tragic lore of the Thousand Sons and I was entranced by the new plastic Rubricae that Wrath of Magnus introduced. A new Codex marks an excellent opportunity for me to finally start my own force of Thousand Sons.
Almost everyone agreed that Rubrics were (and still are overpriced).
No points change at all to Rubrics.
Tzaangors are now massively OP.
What are the people tgat dont have a grand to drop on new models supposed to do? Lose every game till they can save up 1000 dollars to buy the new Tzaangor hotness?
I'm going to field rubrics until they win me a game, then by that time I can retire from my job and use my pension to buy some Tzaangors
Almost everyone agreed that Rubrics were (and still are) overpriced.
No points change at all to Rubrics.
I know that this might come as a shock to you, but not everyone plays to win.
Alot of people just play to have fun, and/or because they like their army's fluff/models.
Rubrics could do with some slight tweaks, but they're far from trash, and in most lists they have their place.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: What are the people tgat dont have a grand to drop on new models supposed to do? Lose every game till they can save up 1000 dollars to buy the new Tzaangor hotness?
Play with the models you have?
Get a job and save up?
I'm being facetious since one hardly needs $1000 update their TS-army. $1000 is enough to buy you 220 Tzaangors and a Shaman, not sure anyone would need that many.
I know this might come as a surprise to you but some people are capable of being competitive and having fun at the same time.
Tzaangors are out of stock. 1000$ would get you 100 Tzaangors from the AoS box. And you would still need HQ choices so more like 1200ish. if you wanted a Tzaangor heavy army assuming you already have a bunch of Rubrics/SOT to run as well you need about 700 dollars.
Yes really...
1DP and 1 Sorc in TA, and 1st turn I can DS a 30 man squad of Tzaangors that will eat 1/4 to 1/2 of your army. Which I can do twice for less then 1k points. If you add 2 mutaliths your barly breaking 1k points and your getting S5 AP -2 attacks, VotLW. Now anything with T9 a 3++ and less then 20 wound dies in 1 turn.
I already saved for a while to get the army I have. Which makes me wonder why they couldn't make the Rubrics you know better rather then nerfing them?
I know this might come as a surprise to you but some people are capable of being competitive and having fun at the same time.
Tzaangors are out of stock. 1000$ would get you 100 Tzaangors from the AoS box. And you would still need HQ choices so more like 1200ish. if you wanted a Tzaangor heavy army assuming you already have a bunch of Rubrics/SOT to run as well you need about 700 dollars.
Not out of stock here.
But sure, cherry pick a box that has other models when 10 simple tzaangors is $40 and then completely ignore everything else in that box.
You get more absurd with each post.
1DP and 1 Sorc in TA, and 1st turn I can DS a 30 man squad of Tzaangors that will eat 1/4 to 1/2 of your army. Which I can do twice for less then 1k points. If you add 2 mutaliths your barly breaking 1k points and your getting S5 AP -2 attacks, VotLW. Now anything with T9 a 3++ and less then 20 wound dies in 1 turn.
LOL.
I eagerly await your 1st place tournament trophies.
I know this might come as a surprise to you but some people are capable of being competitive and having fun at the same time.
Tzaangors are out of stock. 1000$ would get you 100 Tzaangors from the AoS box. And you would still need HQ choices so more like 1200ish. if you wanted a Tzaangor heavy army assuming you already have a bunch of Rubrics/SOT to run as well you need about 700 dollars.
Not out of stock here.
But sure, cherry pick a box that has other models when 10 simple tzaangors is $40 and then completely ignore everything else in that box.
You get more absurd with each post.
1DP and 1 Sorc in TA, and 1st turn I can DS a 30 man squad of Tzaangors that will eat 1/4 to 1/2 of your army. Which I can do twice for less then 1k points. If you add 2 mutaliths your barly breaking 1k points and your getting S5 AP -2 attacks, VotLW. Now anything with T9 a 3++ and less then 20 wound dies in 1 turn.
LOL.
I eagerly await your 1st place tournament trophies.
Not sure where here is but UK, US, and Canada are all 3 sold out.
And yes you ignore things you dont want in a package deal. If i told you i was selling a car for 75k and said but it comes with an elephant a tiger and 2 mules. If all you want is a car you don't care what else it somes with.
So I was correct to an extent. Much of your salt comes from having to buy new models to stay competitive. This is wrong hobby and the wrong company for you. As I have told you before, GW practices a method of planned obsolescence as a sales tactic. While it is true that some units and fewer armies are less likely to change, most are not as fortunate. While Eldar have remained very very strong through most editions most armies have swung wildly. Grey Knights are a perfect example of this. This is the reality of staying at a high level of competition in warhammer. I am not a fan of this method of sales but I understand that it works and it is what GW as a company have chosen to do. I do wish you well in this hobby but for your own sake you need to come to grips on how things are and will be.
I myself started my love affair with Rogue Trader back in the 80's and I bought the first plastic space marine box but had no money to continue being a child at the time. I had to wait until much later in life before I had a income that could be used to stay current in warhammer. Did I like it? No. But I did not make dozens of posts about my dislike. Now I am with you that it is a disappointment that so much focus goes to the blue birdmen but this is what we have. If you want to change anything contact GW customer service, making negative posts here do not help. You seem to be a decent and intelligent fellow and I hope you will come to these understanding.
Not sure where here is but UK, US, and Canada are all 3 sold out.
And yes you ignore things you dont want in a package deal. If i told you i was selling a car for 75k and said but it comes with an elephant a tiger and 2 mules. If all you want is a car you don't care what else it somes with.
Tzaangors are in stock down here in Australia.
By the by, what point are you trying to make exactly? You talk about the price of the army and throw a ridiculous figure of $700 out which only applies if you either buy Tzaangors exclusively as part of the Changecult box set or if you buy Tzaangors by themselves down here in Australia or New Zealand. Are you only talking about the Changecult box because you want the Kairic Acolytes, Enlightened and Shaman alongside the Tzaangors? If you just want Tzaangors, that box is completely unnecessary. If you want the other stuff, it's not "just Tzaangors" you're buying then, you're buying what amounts to half of a full Arcanite army or all the non-daemon chaff you could ever need for a Thousand Sons army. Are you only talking about the Changecult box because currently Tzaangors by themselves are out of stock? Wait a few weeks and they'll be back in stock.
Besides, the max number of Tzaangors you would realistically want in a competitive army is 60, or two blobs of 30, to Deep Strike the max of two units with the Webway stratagem. You'd more than likely want Cultists for the rest of your Troops if you just want to fill out points as they save you 30 points per minimum sized squad, and those points add up very quickly in top end games. After you've taken the 60 Tzaangors and however many Cultists you need to fill out your Troops, what other units are you using in your army list? The Tzaangors by themselves do have hard counters, and even if you invest +4 to cast on the all-critical Warptime (without it, their charge out of Deep Strike is unreliable) some armies can still shut it down completely. Tzaangors by themselves won't win a game, they need good supporting elements around them. Compared to Bloodletters, they require a lot more investment to really get their value back, whereas Bloodletters are pretty much wholly self sufficient besides the CP costs (but you're spending plenty of CPs on Tzaangors too, plus psychic powers, Mutalith powers, etc, so...)
Saying "if you wanted a Tzaangor heavy army assuming you already have a bunch of Rubrics/SOT to run as well you need about 700 dollars" is an abhorrent lie and you know it. As people have been telling you for weeks, take a chill pill and start thinking logically.
Formosa wrote: As a codex Tsons it has failed quite badly, there is no argument that will convince me otherwise here, it failed to provide some very easy changes in the lineup that didnt even require models, it focused too much on non Tson units to be called Codex Thousand sons.
HOWEVER!!!!!!!
As codex Tzeench Deamonkin I think it has succeeded quite convincingly, I like the Gors, I like Tsons, and I like the mix.
Still not Daemonkin, still how the Tsons fight.
Turns out Tsons don't fight like they do in 30k anymore, who knew.
Enjoy the Tzaangor masses who live upon the planet of Sorcerers and are used as armies by Thousand Sons.
Almost everyone agreed that Rubrics were (and still are) overpriced.
No points change at all to Rubrics.
I know that this might come as a shock to you, but not everyone plays to win. Alot of people just play to have fun, and/or because they like their army's fluff/models.
Rubrics could do with some slight tweaks, but they're far from trash, and in most lists they have their place.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: What are the people tgat dont have a grand to drop on new models supposed to do? Lose every game till they can save up 1000 dollars to buy the new Tzaangor hotness?
Play with the models you have? Get a job and save up?
I'm being facetious since one hardly needs $1000 update their TS-army. $1000 is enough to buy you 220 Tzaangors and a Shaman, not sure anyone would need that many.
I know this might come as a surprise to you but some people are capable of being competitive and having fun at the same time.
Tzaangors are out of stock. 1000$ would get you 100 Tzaangors from the AoS box. And you would still need HQ choices so more like 1200ish. if you wanted a Tzaangor heavy army assuming you already have a bunch of Rubrics/SOT to run as well you need about 700 dollars.
Yes really...
1DP and 1 Sorc in TA, and 1st turn I can DS a 30 man squad of Tzaangors that will eat 1/4 to 1/2 of your army. Which I can do twice for less then 1k points. If you add 2 mutaliths your barly breaking 1k points and your getting S5 AP -2 attacks, VotLW. Now anything with T9 a 3++ and less then 20 wound dies in 1 turn.
I already saved for a while to get the army I have. Which makes me wonder why they couldn't make the Rubrics you know better rather then nerfing them?
Hmm, no, not going to happen.
Let me tell you what in a competitive setting what you described would do:
1) You DS the units 2) Since you didn't provide any chaff clearing attack, you charge a screen. 3) Between 2 fights phases you manage to kill about 120 points of chaff models. 4) Your tzangors get slaughtered.
Yeah, going to win a lot of tournaments with Tzangor bombs. Not like this tactic already exists from many other factions, which can actually do it much better, and yet it is not winning any tournaments. Not alone at least, it comes handy when supported by a more balanced list. With the Codex in hand, i'm designing many (competitively oriented) lists, and Tzangors tend to get between 10 and 20% of the total points. They are a nice addition to the army, and surely a TS list with Tzangors is better than one without, but sorceres, SoTs and Rubrics are surely the main dish of a TS army.
I am loving the look of a Tzeentch daemon prince from the daemons codex following a couple units of enlightened with a shaman. Since the enlightened are daemons on the disks that reroll wound rolls and reroll hit rolls for Tzeentch daemons is sounding super tasty. Also a the mutaliths sound pretty tasty with deep striking pink horror bombs. Str 5 pink horrors or -1 ap? I'll be trying that out might even be worth throwing two in a list since they are only 150 pts.
Also, I am just not understanding how people can say rubrics didn't get better. If we are only paying the standard price for the sorcerer now instead of double that is in essence almost a 2 point drop per rubric in a squad depending on the size. I also never really noticed that the CSM codex changed the number required for the cannon but since the index and TS codex are the same that leads me to believe that was a typo rather than intended. The aspiring sorcerers got access to more powers, and we have support characters that want to stay with our rubrics in the form of exalted sorcerers. I will take hit rolls of 1 rerolls over invulnerable saving throws of 1 any day of the week. The only thing I am a little disappointed in is that rubrics and our terminators still share practically the same role. But I don't really see how to change that with our current kits. Oh, and Magnus getting $^#%ed in the *&% because of all the whining but hey I guess having a single model in the game that doesn't just fall over when looked at is too much to ask.
Edit: Also first post HI EVERYONE long time forum stalker just felt the need to voice my opinion on this matter also the name is relevant I think.
Personally really like the codex thus far. Lots of fun psyker powers. Imo though I think they need to give exaulted sorcerers access to the daemon powers as well. They currently have 18 powers yes, but only 2 units can access the daemon ones, the D prince, and Magnus.
Other then that the army is a blast, wombo comboing 30 tzaangors, with a D prince and a shaman, run them all forward, have your D prince be your warlord so he can advance and charge and reroll the charge, then have him dark matter crystal the tzangoes to sling shot them 9" away from the enemy and comgo line them in range of a shaman, and the D prince, need to them make an 8 inch charge they hit one 2s reroll 1s. If you have avortex beast you can make them s5 or ap-2.
Depending on the army you can have your D prince death hex or diabolic str himself and just have what ever you are charging get slaughteres on top of that, the shaman can give them glamor of tzeentzch for -2 to hit.
Take rubric supports to gun down back line stuff and it's great. Really happy with this codex
A lot of interesting takes, I'll definitely check the other thread to get my full salt intake for the day, keep me healthy and gives my skin that nice sheen.
After digging through over the weekend and sorting out what I would actually field, I managed to come up with a single detachment that I may try out alongside my Tzeentch Daemons/Alpha Legion.
However, that detachment is basically a cherry-picking exercise. It has Ahriman, Daemon Prince, 30 Tzaangors (autopistol/chainsword), Shaman, and either 2 cultist squads or 2 squads of Horrors. There was honestly little else in the codex of interest. Their Legion Psychic Discipline is pretty cool, but outside of the Tzaangor bomb, there's not much I'd be interested in using it for as far as buffs go.
The Tzaangor bomb dropping in with the Shaman is definitely interesting (it should at least be very consistent when used appropriately), but the codex feels like a one-trick pony. Their Stratagems are pretty much copy-paste except for a couple that were interesting, specifically Sorcerous Pact, which potentially provides a nice deep strike avenue for some of the units from the Daemons codex, and obviously Webway Infiltration for the Tzaangor bomb. The Enlightened are interesting, but I haven't figured out what I really would want to combo them with yet, currently they feel like they're sitting on an island.
However, I'm still not seeing any of the other units in the army bringing something to the table that can't be done better with another Legion, so consequently, they will at best get a detachment in my army, and they are certainly not a priority.
I'm not seeing a lot of math supporting the idea that Rubrics or Scarabs are worth fielding.
Don't take the auto pistols unless you are fighting T3 stuff. Like really, it's so worthless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I would argue, that Tsons are no longer a 1 trick pony. Before it was you took Magnus and built around him, now there are more options to make it's so you can play t sons with out him.
Honestly the TS codex is one of the better ones out there, just tabled one of those cheesy custodes bike lists in 1.5 turns people are high if they think this codex is bad
Mesokhornee wrote: Honestly the TS codex is one of the better ones out there, just tabled one of those cheesy custodes bike lists in 1.5 turns people are high if they think this codex is bad
This, there are so many wombo combos, and it almost feels like orks with powers because a lot of your str is left up to the fate of a dice roll, very tzeentzchy.
The only complaint I have, is that there are not enough casters that can access daemon powers in the codex, you get 2 Magnus and d price.
Backspacehacker wrote: Don't take the auto pistols unless you are fighting T3 stuff. Like really, it's so worthless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I would argue, that Tsons are no longer a 1 trick pony. Before it was you took Magnus and built around him, now there are more options to make it's so you can play t sons with out him.
I flipped between Blades and Chainsword/Autopistol and settled on the Autopistol just to have an extra shot really. Chances are you're going to drop the bomb onto bubble screens or some kind of beat troop initially unless your opponent really screwed up, at which point the -1 AP from Blades is less useful than the Autopistols I suspect. But I'd be curious to hear your reasoning to the contrary.
Magnus is fired. I hate to say it, but he's just not durable enough for the points and I can get 75% of his functionality from Ahriman for less than a third of the cost. The Warlord trait on Magnus is superfluous and he can't really be modified, outside of thematic armies, I really think his day is done, he might be interesting in a pure TS list, but I just don't see the value in a pure TS list.
My logic for taking the blades over pistols is kinda explained by what you just said. Odds are your going to tzaangor bomb them into a unit first turn, if you have a vortex beast your going to assume you are either taking +1str or +1 to AP making you ap-2.
So let's say you bomb into chaff units. If you give them a chain sword, they are still going to get a save, where as the blade they are going to get either no save, or If they are 5+ a 6+ but if you gave them a -2 now they also get another no save. So if you do end up fighting chaff units you just slaughter them and cut down any screening they had with out issues. If they did not have a screen and say you are now diving into 2+ or 3+ saves, at. AP -2 from a vortex beast, you having their much more meaty units foricng a 4+ or 5+ from your own chaff units. On top of that, tzangoes have an amazing strat to fight twice, which does not let them utilize their pistol, so why not swing twice with the better weapon? Plus the pistols don't ever get a buff from the vortex beast. Really my thought process is tzaangors are good in melee, so why not make them better? Why take a pick up truck if your never going to fully load your bed up?
Yeah Magnus just does not have that durability anymore, you end up needing to spend so much to make his survivable, Weaver's of fate is pretty much a must have on him which could be used on say tzaangors, and giving him glamor of tzeentzch makes him survivable. I think what would make him worth it is a 3++ default.
Backspacehacker wrote: Don't take the auto pistols unless you are fighting T3 stuff. Like really, it's so worthless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I would argue, that Tsons are no longer a 1 trick pony. Before it was you took Magnus and built around him, now there are more options to make it's so you can play t sons with out him.
I flipped between Blades and Chainsword/Autopistol and settled on the Autopistol just to have an extra shot really. Chances are you're going to drop the bomb onto bubble screens or some kind of beat troop initially unless your opponent really screwed up, at which point the -1 AP from Blades is less useful than the Autopistols I suspect. But I'd be curious to hear your reasoning to the contrary.
Magnus is fired. I hate to say it, but he's just not durable enough for the points and I can get 75% of his functionality from Ahriman for less than a third of the cost. The Warlord trait on Magnus is superfluous and he can't really be modified, outside of thematic armies, I really think his day is done, he might be interesting in a pure TS list, but I just don't see the value in a pure TS list.
I don't really see the value in a pure ANYTHING imperium/chaos related as the edition currently stands. until the soup cancer currently eating away at competitive 40k gets somehow fixed, imperium and chaos lists will always be picking the best of the factions available to them. So sure, in tournaments, we're going to see a small tsons detachment to splash in, get Ahriman, get a fancy DP, and maybe a tzaangor bomb, then you're going to pair that with tzeentch daemons or alpha legion or something. Tzaangors are too stratagem reliant in order to bring tournament-level cheese to bother with more than 1 unit.
In my eyes, that says more about the health of competitive 40k than it does the health of the thousand sons codex as a whole. If anything, I like that there's not enough stuff that's Dark Reaper/Shining Spear level broken to warrant a whole competitive list in the current meta.
The isse see with trying to make a t sons soup list is that most of the spells in t sons only effect t sons, and same with tzeenztch daemons. I actually giggled when I looked at the t sons Dex and I saw that they gave them flamers, horrors and screamers because why would you ever take them?
The only soup list I see being a thing is going to be tzeentzch daemon and tsons to get either vortex beasts and v
Preds.
I do for see though that tzengors will loose they heretic astarties keyword in an FAQ
You'd take them because tons of daemon stuff helps thousand sons. Post the FAQ the only thing you can't do is directly use Stratagems. Thousand Sons daemon units (all disc units, Magnus, daemon engines) can use things like
-flickering flames
-loci of trickery/conjuration
-chsngeling aura
-herald aura
And everyone can make use of gaze of fate and offensive powers. So you'll want the daemon hqs, and all the other daemon units are good too.
the_scotsman wrote: You'd take them because tons of daemon stuff helps thousand sons. Post the FAQ the only thing you can't do is directly use Stratagems. Thousand Sons daemon units (all disc units, Magnus, daemon engines) can use things like
-flickering flames
-loci of trickery/conjuration
-chsngeling aura
-herald aura
And everyone can make use of gaze of fate and offensive powers. So you'll want the daemon hqs, and all the other daemon units are good too.
The Daemon stuff affects my CSM Tzeentch Daemon units also, which includes Obliterators, which are currently better heavy support than anything TS can field. So Flickering Fires, Gaze of Fate, etc, are really just better for CSM than they really are for TS.
Really, TS is a detachment for delivering a Tzaangor bomb to a large extent, the more I look at it, I probably wouldn't even bother giving the DP much from the TS discipline outside of Temporal Manipulation (although I keep meaning to look into the possibility of a Hellwright in addition to this healing Tzeentch Daemonic Vehicles for potentially 2D3 wounds per turn), I could put Glamour of Tzeentch on the Tzaangor bomb, but I think that starts to get to a point of diminishing returns on the investment. I was planning to give the Shaman Boon of Mutation on the off-chance that with Gaze of Fate and a CP I might be able to manipulate that into box cars and turn him into another DP of Tzeentch.
That's what I'm saying about competitive 40k. Soup allows pretty much any army within the chaos/imperium bubble to mix totally freely and if one option does similar things better...guess what will always be taken?
(though, tbf, why would you want to take Oblits NOT marked by slaanesh for double shots, I'm not sure, but for the sake of argument lets say theyre tzeentch)
The quality of pretty much any imperial troop choice in the game can't be evaluated because Guardsmen exist. The quality of any dark eldar heavy support can't be evaluated because Dark Reapers exist. The quality of any csm heavy support can't be evaluated because oblits exist.
The Thousand Son codex is middle of the road at worst, but you'll never see anything from it except for the cherrypicking detachments you describe (and even then, having 4-5 tournament cheese-worthy unit options puts them at a better spot than half the current codexes that exist) because of the general stupidity of Soup, rather than any real problem with the thousand sons and what they have available.
the_scotsman wrote: (though, tbf, why would you want to take Oblits NOT marked by slaanesh for double shots, I'm not sure, but for the sake of argument lets say theyre tzeentch)
I like the soup, so sadly, you won't find me agreeing with your arguments on that count.
I might take 1-2 squads with the Mark of Slaanesh to use that stratagem, but it burns CP fast and I think you could be more efficient with CP for more consistent production throughout the match.
However, the reason to take Tzeentch Obliterators is as follows:
Daemons Codex, Tzeentch Daemon Prince with Daemonspark Warlord trait allows Tzeentch Daemons within 9" to re-roll 1s to wound, this is the only place to get this ability for shooting currently. Additionally, he provides re-rolls on 1s to hit for Tzeentch Daemons within 6", additionally, he can cast Flickering Fires on one of them and another could use Veterans, or you could double up on one squad for +2 to wound.
Oh I agree soup lists are bloody dumb, I mean it's what ruinied 7th with the super friends lists people were running.
I miss back in 6th end were you could run an allied detatchment, but you were limited in what you could bring. It's my hopes in either the next iterstion of 8th or 9th, they pull a page from sigmar and say you have to have a main force, and are limited to a given amount of points for any allies.
Also another example is freaking custodes with their banner that gives units a 5++ that have the imperium key word.
Backspacehacker wrote: Also another example is freaking custodes with their banner that gives units a 5++ that have the imperium key word.
Stuff like this is a sure indicator that soup is not going anywhere this edition, get used to it, it's the way of the world now, embrace and move forward. Soup sells models.
I know it is, but non soup armies are dicked. Orks Tau nids crons they can't wombo combo stuff as easy or at all. But either way we digress from the topic of the sons lol
Backspacehacker wrote: I know it is, but non soup armies are dicked. Orks Tau nids crons they can't wombo combo stuff as easy or at all. But either way we digress from the topic of the sons lol
Nids can soup. Yesterday I played against a Nid list that had three Leman Russ tanks in it.
Tau, Orks, and Crons don't have soup lists, true, but they also don't have codexes yet. Perhaps they will be brought up to par, or even given soup options as the edition progresses.
The Tzaangor bomb dropping in with the Shaman is definitely interesting (it should at least be very consistent when used appropriately), but the codex feels like a one-trick pony.
You can't deepstrike the shaman. Not by stratagem nor by relic.
However, I'm still not seeing any of the other units in the army bringing something to the table that can't be done better with another Legion, so consequently, they will at best get a detachment in my army, and they are certainly not a priority.
I'm not seeing a lot of math supporting the idea that Rubrics or Scarabs are worth fielding.
I think you've over estimated what Tzaangors will do by comparison, but at least you're not going full bore with them.
There are also some vehicle plus buff based strategies worth considering.
Daedalus81 wrote: You can't deepstrike the shaman. Not by stratagem nor by relic.
I think you've over estimated what Tzaangors will do by comparison, but at least you're not going full bore with them.
Good catch on the Shaman, given that he's not infantry. That's really problematic actually, the consistency he provides to the Tzaangors was really where I thought they got the most bang for the buck. Running Enlightened around with him and using Prescience is good, but just feels a bit too fragile and gimmicky to be consistent.
I'll have to re-think that, I was trying to find something that would replace my Alpha Legion Battalion without losing too much effectiveness. I don't think Ahriman and the Daemon Prince are bringing enough to the table by themselves to justify including a TS detachment right now.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hoodwink wrote: Not having soup isn't necessarily causing you to be at a disadvantage. Look at Eldar...
All the Eldar lists that made the top 8 at LVO were soup IIRC.
Good catch on the Shaman, given that he's not infantry. That's really problematic actually, the consistency he provides to the Tzaangors was really where I thought they got the most bang for the buck. Running Enlightened around with him and using Prescience is good, but just feels a bit too fragile and gimmicky to be consistent..
On the other hand, do you really need to deepstrike him?
12" move, D6" advance and 6" range on the aura means whatever you want to be within aura-range on turn 1 will be with some careful positioning.
Hoodwink wrote: Not having soup isn't necessarily causing you to be at a disadvantage. Look at Eldar...
All the Eldar lists that made the top 8 at LVO were soup IIRC.
Yes but do you really think forcing them to change one Ynnari detachment to a Craftworlds detachment would have so utterly crippled their armies that they would have toppled from the top spots in a heap of defeat?
The Ynnari detachments they included did up their power level, but were not required. If no one could soup, those same lists would be at the top, minus one special ability per turn.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Yes but do you really think forcing them to change one Ynnari detachment to a Craftworlds detachment would have so utterly crippled their armies that they would have toppled from the top spots in a heap of defeat?
The Ynnari detachments they included did up their power level, but were not required. If no one could soup, those same lists would be at the top, minus one special ability per turn.
I am a soup fan, first of all.
No, I don't think it would have crippled CWE, certainly not existing within a no-soup paradigm.
Anyhow, this is kind of off-topic, except in that Thousand Sons may arguably only be useful as a soup detachment. Running them pure, they start to match up really badly against most other codices, but perhaps we'll all find something amazing that fixes all that.
Some armies are in fact best used in part of a soup, and that's a design choice by GW (unless you are trying to claim Inquisition is a stand-alone faction ).
I don't think "having a codex = must be able to monobuild" holds any water, especially if we're expecting an Inquisition or Imperial Agents codex sometime.
Some armies are in fact best used in part of a soup, and that's a design choice by GW (unless you are trying to claim Inquisition is a stand-alone faction ).
I don't think "having a codex = must be able to monobuild" holds any water, especially if we're expecting an Inquisition or Imperial Agents codex sometime.
No, I agree.
At this point I'm just struggling to find a reason to even build a single Thousand Sons detachment. I just don't value what they're bringing to the table.
Some armies are in fact best used in part of a soup, and that's a design choice by GW (unless you are trying to claim Inquisition is a stand-alone faction ).
I don't think "having a codex = must be able to monobuild" holds any water, especially if we're expecting an Inquisition or Imperial Agents codex sometime.
No, I agree.
At this point I'm just struggling to find a reason to even build a single Thousand Sons detachment. I just don't value what they're bringing to the table.
*shrug*
I feel the same way about every army I don't play. Why would I bring a detachment of Grey Knights with my Astra Militarum? I'm not that scared of Daemons. Why would I bring any Custodes? I don't need them and they're expensive. Why would I bring sisters of silence? Etc. etc.
What one "values" in their armies is subjective. I know this because other people value different things than I.
I am immensely, immensely happy with the new codex. Most people (including myself) are either beginners to the hobby or amateurs. This codex is incredible in that regard and while it is not massively competitive, it works to the new lore of TS, it sells GW models and gets people interested in aos as a biproduct. Non-competitive lists for TS are way more fun with more variability and not relying on getting a single spell off to do anything. In amateur games, Magnus was too much of a powerhouse that most people simply cannot deal with due to the inflexibility of their lists or lack of certain battlefield roles. I love tzaangors, their rules are great and alongside the mutalith this book shines. The great flexibility of things to choose from in terms of models, options, powers, relics, traits etc Have made this army a joy to play. As a person who plays more than a few games a month, with not a lot of models (yet) this book is just fantastic. The people who hate on it are the people who hate on every book, find the unfillable holes that would make 8th go the way of 7th and are just shortsited. Yes rubrics didn't get enough attention, but that doesn't mean tzaangor are GW's new golden boys (those are the custodes)
In short, I don't see what's wrong with this so either suck it up or actually play games in a fun setting rather and a fun way rather than powerplaying everything. Lay off the
I like tsons a lot with this codex, putting them with a small group of tzeench deamons has worked well for me so far. And I am not using tzaangors, just rubrics, cultists, sorcerers (exalted and normal), and heavy units like forgefiend and defiler.
There are many forces that soup well, and I think tsons is a good option.
fwlr wrote: The people who hate on it are the people who hate on every book, find the unfillable holes that would make 8th go the way of 7th and are just shortsited. Yes rubrics didn't get enough attention, but that doesn't mean tzaangor are GW's new golden boys (those are the custodes)
Loved the Daemons Codex.
Loved the Death Guard Codex (even though I hate Nurgle and will never play it).
I have grown to love the CSM Codex, although initially I was fairly salty about it (still think Legion traits should apply to all units).
Thousand Sons Codex so far has been a grand field of mediocrity.
I don't get the love of the Mutalith, it's an expensive, foot-slogging, pillow-fisted, bag of inconsistency.
Rubrics are simply too expensive for what they bring to the table.
I can't look at Scarabs without looking at CSM Terminators...which are vastly superior.
I find things in the book that are interesting, but limited, lazy really. Why can't I take a Shaman on foot? Why can't I take enlightened on foot?
The whole thing is a lazy, copy-paste and repackaging exercise.
fwlr wrote: The people who hate on it are the people who hate on every book, find the unfillable holes that would make 8th go the way of 7th and are just shortsited. Yes rubrics didn't get enough attention, but that doesn't mean tzaangor are GW's new golden boys (those are the custodes)
Loved the Daemons Codex.
Loved the Death Guard Codex (even though I hate Nurgle and will never play it).
I have grown to love the CSM Codex, although initially I was fairly salty about it (still think Legion traits should apply to all units).
Thousand Sons Codex so far has been a grand field of mediocrity.
I don't get the love of the Mutalith, it's an expensive, foot-slogging, pillow-fisted, bag of inconsistency.
Rubrics are simply too expensive for what they bring to the table.
I can't look at Scarabs without looking at CSM Terminators...which are vastly superior.
I find things in the book that are interesting, but limited, lazy really. Why can't I take a Shaman on foot? Why can't I take enlightened on foot?
The whole thing is a lazy, copy-paste and repackaging exercise.
The answer to the on foot shaman and enlightened is because GW does not make models for them. The vortex beast is a bag of mixed nuts because it can either pay off big or be a waste really depends. And it's not that pillow fisted, dibilical str, your swinging 12 str 9 attacks into your enemy.
fwlr wrote: The people who hate on it are the people who hate on every book, find the unfillable holes that would make 8th go the way of 7th and are just shortsited. Yes rubrics didn't get enough attention, but that doesn't mean tzaangor are GW's new golden boys (those are the custodes)
Loved the Daemons Codex.
Loved the Death Guard Codex (even though I hate Nurgle and will never play it).
I have grown to love the CSM Codex, although initially I was fairly salty about it (still think Legion traits should apply to all units).
Thousand Sons Codex so far has been a grand field of mediocrity.
I don't get the love of the Mutalith, it's an expensive, foot-slogging, pillow-fisted, bag of inconsistency.
Rubrics are simply too expensive for what they bring to the table.
I can't look at Scarabs without looking at CSM Terminators...which are vastly superior.
I find things in the book that are interesting, but limited, lazy really. Why can't I take a Shaman on foot? Why can't I take enlightened on foot?
The whole thing is a lazy, copy-paste and repackaging exercise.
Care to tell why you think that CSM termi are better than scarabs?
On the other hand, do you really need to deepstrike him?
12" move, D6" advance and 6" range on the aura means whatever you want to be within aura-range on turn 1 will be with some careful positioning.
It depends on where you need your Tzaangors need to be.
Problem #1) The placement of your Shaman determines where your Tzaangors can possibly be effective. If your opponent has enough drops you might not have any idea where to place him effectively.
Problem #2) You'll need to leave a tail, which could significantly reduce attacks in base.
Problem #3) You've stranded the Shaman and if you don't clear chaff there is a good chance they can make a counter strike and take out the Tzaangor support. He is only T4 4W 5++ after all.
Spoletta wrote: Care to tell why you think that CSM termi are better than scarabs?
I mean, at a basic level, a squad of 5 Scarabs with a Heavy Weapon will be ~220 points depending on which heavy weapon you choose.
For an additional 45 points, all of those are CSM Terminators with Combi-Plasma and Power Axes. Hell, give them the Mark of Tzeentch also so that your CSM Tzeentch Sorcerer can cast Weaver of Fates on them if you want, but really, you'd probably make them Slaanesh so you can double-tap.
Assuming that you're planning to Deep Strike in both cases (which means you'll be taking a Soulreaper Cannon instead of a Warpflamer), the CSM Terminators are effective against a wider range of targets than the Scarabs, by a long shot.
Scarab Termies are effective against practically everything, even without the additional heavy weapons. The -2AP on their bolters is fantastic. You'll be wounding T7 units on a 5+ and due to the sheer volume of fire you can produce, you'll be sticking some wounds on it if you need to.
Scarabs also don't need the additional Sorcerer for them, freeing one up somewhere else.
All is Dust improves their survivability quite a lot too. Now volume of fire is even more difficult to take them out. Heavy Bolters for example still provide a 2+ save. And let's be real, everything in the army lists are not going to be multi damage.
Hoodwink wrote: Scarab Termies are effective against practically everything, even without the additional heavy weapons. The -2AP on their bolters is fantastic. You'll be wounding T7 units on a 5+ and due to the sheer volume of fire you can produce, you'll be sticking some wounds on it if you need to.
Scarabs also don't need the additional Sorcerer for them, freeing one up somewhere else.
All is Dust improves their survivability quite a lot too. Now volume of fire is even more difficult to take them out. Heavy Bolters for example still provide a 2+ save. And let's be real, everything in the army lists are not going to be multi damage.
Eh here is the problem with that, mind you, a fully loaded SOT is just a few points more the a full 10 man rubric squad. Let's say we are shooting T7 that's gonna be 16 rapid fire shots, assuming perfect statistics it comes out to 3 wounds from the bolter which in a game were everything has a ++ not that threatening. The other problem is all is dust is over kill on them, because they already have a 2 up so your opponant would already be shooting them with multi damage/multi AP weapons. The reason it's good on rubrics is because it forces your opponant to waste wither high AP or multi wound weapons on single wound models.
This ultimately comes down to may main issue with rubrics and sot, they are basically the same unit filling the same role.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They are both anti meq killers. Why take SOT when rubrics are just as powerful and more survivable.
Spoletta wrote: Care to tell why you think that CSM termi are better than scarabs?
I mean, at a basic level, a squad of 5 Scarabs with a Heavy Weapon will be ~220 points depending on which heavy weapon you choose.
For an additional 45 points, all of those are CSM Terminators with Combi-Plasma and Power Axes. Hell, give them the Mark of Tzeentch also so that your CSM Tzeentch Sorcerer can cast Weaver of Fates on them if you want, but really, you'd probably make them Slaanesh so you can double-tap.
Assuming that you're planning to Deep Strike in both cases (which means you'll be taking a Soulreaper Cannon instead of a Warpflamer), the CSM Terminators are effective against a wider range of targets than the Scarabs, by a long shot.
What's giving them plasma death protection? Have you considered that in your costs?
Against GEQ CSM - 4.4 //no OC needed
SoT - 8.9 w/o using HMR
Against MEQ CSM - 4.6 // 1-2 dead from OC
SoT - 5 w/o HMR
Against T7 3+ CSM - 7.4 // 1-2 dead from OC
**CSM Slaanesh score less than double this and lose more models when using stratagem
SoT - 4.3 w/ HMR
SoT w/ VotLW - 6.1
So, sure they're weaker against tanks, but don't kill themselves or require support for it and have tools to excel beyond those numbers.
Hoodwink wrote: Scarab Termies are effective against practically everything, even without the additional heavy weapons. The -2AP on their bolters is fantastic. You'll be wounding T7 units on a 5+ and due to the sheer volume of fire you can produce, you'll be sticking some wounds on it if you need to.
Scarabs also don't need the additional Sorcerer for them, freeing one up somewhere else.
All is Dust improves their survivability quite a lot too. Now volume of fire is even more difficult to take them out. Heavy Bolters for example still provide a 2+ save. And let's be real, everything in the army lists are not going to be multi damage.
What additional Sorcerer? I'd probably Deep Strike them with a Chaos Lord or Abaddon if I fielded them (to be fair this entire line of discussion is kind of disingenuous on my part since I think Terminators are garbage also) if I was going to use them.
Survivability in the current meta is overcosted outside of Characters, yes, many times you'll be able to really make use of All is Dust, but the opportunity cost to completely negate it's effects is minimal. For example, my CSM Termies go full power on plasma and don't care one lick about All is Dust, then they turn next turn and unload on that T8 Land Raider, pop Veterans and light it up. SoTs are borderline useless against anything T8. Honestly, a 5 man squad of Scions would erase them and not think twice about it, for probably less than half the cost.
Also, I take a penalty to hit, but I have the same volume of fire with CSM Termies if I want it, and half of it is S7 or S8 and multi-wound.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Daedalus81 wrote: What's giving them plasma death protection? Have you considered that in your costs?
I'm assuming that's a wash between the two squads really, I assume if you're investing that much in a squad you're dropping some kind of HQ alongside them. So I'm assuming they'll be able to re-roll 1s to hit at least.
If we're talking about what I consider the highly unlikely and honestly kind of questionable scenario of deep striking them naked then yes, I probably wouldn't be as free with high power.
But hey, if you like dropping 250 points on your opponent's doorstep all alone, be my guest.
Farseer_V2 wrote: I've been playing around with a TSons detachment (mostly to get the free relic since I tend to go stratagem heavy with my builds) that consists of:
It's been a nice addition to my chaos soup list giving me a nice big buff machine unit to drop in to create more pressure.
I went DP w/ Wings, Ahriman on foot, 30x Tzaangors (not sold on a loadout yet) Brayhorn, Shaman, 2x Cultists to fill a Battalion. I have to spend an extra CP for the Helm since I am unwilling to gimp my army with a TS Warlord trait when Daemonspark is out there.
Makes sense, and I've tinkered with daemonspark as well which is obviously rock solid. The biggest thing is right now my demon portion of my list is actually a big ball of pbears with supporting heralds - they don't kill much but they get there quick and tie things down really effectively.
Overall my impression of the book so far (haven't got to play yet) is I like it. I actually like the Tzaagors and how they are expanded to new units as to me this makes the TS feel less like a CSM;but not really, type book. I really want to get the Enlightened, but they are some serious $$ for 9 of them. We got some great stratagems (webway, VoLW, double attacked for gors), and I like our relics and warlord traits. Getting inferno bolters on the terminator sorcerer is great, and I love the familiar option for that extra +1 on the first spell per round. Over all I think this book will be good for the way I play (I don't do tournaments with highly competitive lists). That said there are a few things that I feel are miss opportunities:
First Rubrics and SoT are still over priced. All terminators are overpriced, so that will probably not work itself out any time soon, but everyone knows that the Rubrics are like a point or two to much from the CSM book. This is especially true in light of a plague marine being 17 points.
They should have improved SoT a bit for their points. All is Dust doesn't do a lot for them as they have two wounds so draw a lot of multi-damage fire, so they really should have had their All is Dust being damage 1 and 2 weapons. Also, why do they not have a 4+ invul?
I love the Tzaagors, but we still don't have enough units in fast attack and elites. I would really have liked a Rubric Dreadnought, and/or some kind of daemon walker fast attack. We only have three elites (one of which is a character), and two fast attacks (not including daemons which ruin battle forged). They really need like 2 more fast and one more elite.
Finally, I agree with everyone that I would like to have seen a Rubric/SoT stratagem or two. Something like damage 2 for inferno bolters for 3 cp or all is dust can be used on any damage level, would have been nice.
Overall though I am just glad that we are not stuck with the index anymore, and hopefully they will put out some models in the near future after all the Codex are released.
Above post is pretty spot on, a think a good buff for SoT is making them able to cast 2 powers, also give exaulted the option to tap into daemon spells.
xeen wrote: Overall though I am just glad that we are not stuck with the index anymore, and hopefully they will put out some models in the near future after all the Codex are released.
This is my honest hope for all the mini-dexes (half-assed codices, lazy dexes, repackaging and marketing exercises, pick one), that once all the dexes are out we'll see supplement books that won't be tied to a single faction, but will contain a few things for multiple factions. Something like a Battle for Armageddon supplement that had a collection of Astra Militarum/World Eaters/Ork/Space Marines units/strats/relics or a Doom of the Eldar supplement that had a collection of Tyranid/GSC/Aeldari/Drukhari/Ynnari units/strats/relics.
No, please, don't tie "Stratagems" and "Relics" to campaings, etc... thats how you broke the game and make people carry even MORE books.
Do you want to make campaing books? Fine. Give them special rules for narrative play, to use scenarios, campaings, etc... and bring new untis with new rules. But not "general" things that you need for your army.
If a campaing book brings new units, I can buy the units that come with the rules in the box. But if it brings new stratagems, warlord traits, relics, etc... I need to buy that even if I'm not interested in the campaing.
Daedalus81 wrote: What's giving them plasma death protection? Have you considered that in your costs?
I'm assuming that's a wash between the two squads really, I assume if you're investing that much in a squad you're dropping some kind of HQ alongside them. So I'm assuming they'll be able to re-roll 1s to hit at least.
If we're talking about what I consider the highly unlikely and honestly kind of questionable scenario of deep striking them naked then yes, I probably wouldn't be as free with high power.
But hey, if you like dropping 250 points on your opponent's doorstep all alone, be my guest.
That's fine and if we assume they're equally supported SoT still come out on top versus infantry PLUS they have a sorcerer and a generally better save. And you can still fail 1 in 36, which when firing 10 shots at a time isn't impossible.
I love the Tzaagors, but we still don't have enough units in fast attack and elites. I would really have liked a Rubric Dreadnought, and/or some kind of daemon walker fast attack. We only have three elites (one of which is a character), and two fast attacks (not including daemons which ruin battle forged). They really need like 2 more fast and one more elite.
Enlightened with Spears and Bows are so different and fulfill different battlefield roles that one could argue that it's two different units crammed into one datasheet.
No one would bat an eyelid if it was two separate datasheets, one for Tzaangor Enlightened (spears) and one for Tzaangor Skyfires (bows) just like it is in AoS, and just like Mutilators and Obliterators are technically the same unit but with different weapons.
But I agree that we could do with at least 1 more Elite and 1 more Fast Attack.
Generally I'd say it's an excellent codex. Probably one of the best space marine codices so far, albeit mostly because you can run it with a minimum of actual marines which I'm sure will annoy some.
The area that I think deserves particular praise is the psychic ability. Between two characters, a warlord trait, a stratagem, and the terminator sorcerer you have a lot of ways to boost psychic performance, plus 18 spells to pick from. That's exactly what they needed.
Personally, I've started focusing on a gor heavy army as my next project as I really like what they've done. Though I've always been a sucker for chaos hordes, like my R&H last edition.
I think it is a great codex, the use of finesse, deception and the tools available are the way to go. its not a push a win button codex that's for sure though it seems geared toward the forward thinking seasoned player.
I realize not everyone is happy with the dex though the new units and direction seem a natural organic growth of the army. It seems there are lots of effective builds in the army, the utility of them of course depends on play style and meta.
I guess I am in the wait and see camp and I am hearing a mix of things from games not all good though a lot of them positive.
When I first got into Thousand Sons years ago I was all about the Rubrics. When WoM came out I realized it was all about the spell casters. When 8th dropped everyone was pretty vanilla and limited though with the new dex our spell casters, with all the new toys are center stage again. My new lists I am building are all psycher heavy. I don't get to play that much anymore so this is all theory on my part and I look the applications of others for hard data until I can get some games in.
That's fine and if we assume they're equally supported SoT still come out on to gp versus infantry PLUS they have a sorcerer and a generally better save. And you can still fail 1 in 36, which when firing 10 shots at a time isn't impossible.
The picture isn't as cut and dry as you indicate.
Probably not, but given the choice, CSM Termies are a toolbox and SoT are a tool. This also doesn't take into account hand-to-hand, where CSM Termies are also pretty clearly better, even at a base level (Power Axe > Power Sword).
Anyhow, Thousand Sons are still pretty underwhelming to me:
They have a bomb, it's not bad, but I don't think it's better than any of the various other bombs available, and in some ways it's worse.
They have the same cultists everyone else has.
They have overcosted marines.
They have good psykers and a great daemon prince.
They have a good fast attack unit.
Their heavy support section is a complete waste of time.
They have enough to justify a spot or two in a mixed detachment if you want specific buffs, but that's about it, the rest of it is done better by other units within the same faction. You might make an argument for a small detachment so you can get the Helm of the Third Eye, but that's stretching.
Probably not, but given the choice, CSM Termies are a toolbox and SoT are a tool. This also doesn't take into account hand-to-hand, where CSM Termies are also pretty clearly better, even at a base level (Power Axe > Power Sword).
I won't belabor the point after this post, because it's clear I won't change your mind so this is more for the fence sitters.
SoT are very much better at killing infantry. Plasma termies will definitely be better at killing tanks, but for every time you spend 2CP I can get two turns at +1 to wound.
If they somehow face each other SoT facing power axes is incredibly ideal or the majority of melee weapons for that matter.
They have a bomb, it's not bad, but I don't think it's better than any of the various other bombs available, and in some ways it's worse. Agreed
They have the same cultists everyone else has. But only really good as dead weight.
They have overcosted marines. Agreed
They have good psykers and a great daemon prince. Agreed
They have a good fast attack unit. Agreed
Their heavy support section is a complete waste of time .I think this will shape up a little differently as people explore combos, but we'll have to wait and see.
Most people run hellforged stuff for the heavy support slots, they can take all the keywords buffs etc so we really arent lacking there at all just my 2cents
It's a rushed codex to be honest. It's very small, they obviously did not want to make new models but also did not have enough for a standalone army, so they improvised. they looked around, saw what looks Tzeentchy enough and tossed it in the book. The faults are apparent, namely how you can have horrors, flamers, screamers but not heralds?(!) Or how you have 2 fast options in the whole book and neither of them are marine related. Or how you just can't have oblits or havocs any more. Or how they suggested different "cults" aka paintschemes, and they are all cyan/blue/purple with gold, except the one that is gold with blue. The whole book looks like a rushed attempt to convince everyone that there is a standalone book. Only the depth is really not in there and it shows.
The push to sell goats is also apparent to everyone. It's not just that they are better than the power armor options, it's that they are quite under costed, especially the enlightened. That being said, this is what we get, and we better have a rushed book rather than no book I guess. So in close up inspection:
Rubrics were never stellar and it only stands to reason that they will not be good this time either. They are a little bit cheaper but they don't have 4++ any more either so there's that. The aspiring sorcerers are a joke at this point, bad smite and the first Perils takes away half of the unit (no, really). Nobody is going to be casting with the Aspiring Sorcs now, so them being psykers does not really mean anything. And the whole unit is about as flexible as a brick. You can get a standard model or you can get a 33 pt flamer dude with 5" move. 33 pts. One flamer dude. Wot. All is dust is great, though. Perhaps greater than people realize at this point. 5 man strong dudes in cover holding an objective are going to be seriously impossible to shift, unless the opponents goes for really bad choices. So there's that I suppose. 5 basic dudes in a ruin for 110ish points. Not really sure how they are going to get there with 5" move though.
Scarabs are weird. First of all, they are terminators, and terminators of all flavors are bad at the moment. With that out of the way, they are not very bad costed (for terminators) and their guns are seriously badass (4 shots per dude with ap-2 straight out of deepstriking, possibly with reroll 1's and that's before any spells). The fact that you can redeploy them is also great, if they survive of course. The aspiring sorc this time is not bad, because it does only die half of the time when he perils, and only kills like one more extra dude. Somehow bearable. Still he probably needed to be able to cast twice, but then again he's free and he has a force staff which is 3 damage which is nice. They also have the most stupidly counter intuitive rule ever with All is dust. On a 2 wound model with a 2+ save already. Which means that it's equally useless against any multidamage weapons (which would be expected to target the scarab as they are multiwound models) AND useless against bolters, which is the kind of weapons All is dust was supposed to be protecting against (!?!). Overall, smells like GW were not really thinking when creating either of our two iconic units. Still badass models though.
Bright point for all aspiring sorcs: They can really really make great use of a plasma pistol. It's fairly cheap, and with the multiple sources for reroll 1's they can go overcharge happy all the time. I would seriously put a plasma pistol in each and everyone Aspiring sorcerer I play.
Then comes the overcrowded HQ slot, with Magnus, Ahriman, DP, Exalted, Sorc, Termi Sorc. 6 options for HQ, 2 options for fast attack. Nice job, GW. Also, 6 options for HQ and no dark apostle or warpsmith. Or even herald of Tzeentch. So basically 6 flavors of sorcerers with different point costs. Noice. "Would you like the chocolate icecream with chocolate toppings and chocolate syrup, sir? We can put it on a chocolate cone for you and give you a chocolate spoon to enjoy."
Daemon units also don't make much sense. We get horrors but not heralds, DP's but not loci, we get Flamers of Tzeentch when flamers is they only other weapon option we actually have aside from boltguns. We don't get flaming chariots when we are in serious need for mobility. Just why?
And then come the goats. The problem with them is that they manage to fill up all the holes existing before. So now we can't really complain any more, because we really got what was missing. Shock attack troops, body count, decent hth alpha strikes, really good and cheap fast attack harassers. Only we have to stray away from what the faction actually is in order to do that. Oh well. I have been collecting models for 17 years now. I own 6 armies between WHFB and 40k, including 15k point Tyranid armies and 5-6k beastmen. I already own enough goats for a lifetime, I will not be purchasing any more, no matter how badly GW wants me to.
Heavy support slot has to be the most generic and default list ever. It probably took them 5 mins in a meeting room to decide. "how about heavy support?" -"Just the usual. But take away all the oblits and havocs. They are not TS enough" -"but sir, we just added goats and they are not TS enough eith.." -"Just write "goats exist in sorcerer planets for many years". This should fix it. Ok Larry, what's next?"
Overall, if we want to leave aside the disillusionment and the salt altogether, where does the TS book lie? Basically where it was before. Not going to be played at tournaments, gonna be ok in local games, except psychic phase is going to take a lot of time and sometimes annoy people. GW did not invent nor re-invent the wheel with this one. They just reused an old wheel and added some sparkles so it feels less old. Pretty good job if the purpose is to meet the delivery date for "all new codecs in a single year". I would guess that the guy responsible got promoted for delivering the fastest codex of the decade.
Eh, I think you are taking to many digs at it. Granted i agree this codex feels more, disciples of tzeentzch, then it does T sons, which depending on how you look at it, could be a good or bad thing. I do agree they should have given us at least heralds as an Elite choice, similar to the shaman. Would like to have seen more in the way of dreadnaughts as well.
Overall this is nether a good codex, nor is it by any means a crappy codex, it really middle of the road, like dead center, which in all honestly is where you wanna be, i guarantee, we wont see any buffs or new stuff for T sons, but at the same time, im betting we are not going to see any nerfs any time soon.
More or less agreed on all counts, although Magnus comes from a LoW spot still, so at least he's not crowding the HQ. I tried to find a place for a TS detachment in my competitive lists, but it failed to make the cut. The Tzaangor bomb just isn't good enough or different enough to be worth investing in a detachment and while Enlightened appear really good, they're still a fragile, low model count squad that's going to grab a lot of attention.
topaxygouroun i wrote: It's a rushed codex to be honest. It's very small, they obviously did not want to make new models but also did not have enough for a standalone army, so they improvised. they looked around, saw what looks Tzeentchy enough and tossed it in the book. The faults are apparent, namely how you can have horrors, flamers, screamers but not heralds?(!) Or how you have 2 fast options in the whole book and neither of them are marine related. Or how you just can't have oblits or havocs any more. Or how they suggested different "cults" aka paintschemes, and they are all cyan/blue/purple with gold, except the one that is gold with blue. The whole book looks like a rushed attempt to convince everyone that there is a standalone book. Only the depth is really not in there and it shows.
The push to sell goats is also apparent to everyone. It's not just that they are better than the power armor options, it's that they are quite under costed, especially the enlightened. That being said, this is what we get, and we better have a rushed book rather than no book I guess. So in close up inspection:
Rubrics were never stellar and it only stands to reason that they will not be good this time either. They are a little bit cheaper but they don't have 4++ any more either so there's that. The aspiring sorcerers are a joke at this point, bad smite and the first Perils takes away half of the unit (no, really). Nobody is going to be casting with the Aspiring Sorcs now, so them being psykers does not really mean anything. And the whole unit is about as flexible as a brick. You can get a standard model or you can get a 33 pt flamer dude with 5" move. 33 pts. One flamer dude. Wot. All is dust is great, though. Perhaps greater than people realize at this point. 5 man strong dudes in cover holding an objective are going to be seriously impossible to shift, unless the opponents goes for really bad choices. So there's that I suppose. 5 basic dudes in a ruin for 110ish points. Not really sure how they are going to get there with 5" move though.
Scarabs are weird. First of all, they are terminators, and terminators of all flavors are bad at the moment. With that out of the way, they are not very bad costed (for terminators) and their guns are seriously badass (4 shots per dude with ap-2 straight out of deepstriking, possibly with reroll 1's and that's before any spells). The fact that you can redeploy them is also great, if they survive of course. The aspiring sorc this time is not bad, because it does only die half of the time when he perils, and only kills like one more extra dude. Somehow bearable. Still he probably needed to be able to cast twice, but then again he's free and he has a force staff which is 3 damage which is nice. They also have the most stupidly counter intuitive rule ever with All is dust. On a 2 wound model with a 2+ save already. Which means that it's equally useless against any multidamage weapons (which would be expected to target the scarab as they are multiwound models) AND useless against bolters, which is the kind of weapons All is dust was supposed to be protecting against (!?!). Overall, smells like GW were not really thinking when creating either of our two iconic units. Still badass models though.
Bright point for all aspiring sorcs: They can really really make great use of a plasma pistol. It's fairly cheap, and with the multiple sources for reroll 1's they can go overcharge happy all the time. I would seriously put a plasma pistol in each and everyone Aspiring sorcerer I play.
Then comes the overcrowded HQ slot, with Magnus, Ahriman, DP, Exalted, Sorc, Termi Sorc. 6 options for HQ, 2 options for fast attack. Nice job, GW. Also, 6 options for HQ and no dark apostle or warpsmith. Or even herald of Tzeentch. So basically 6 flavors of sorcerers with different point costs. Noice. "Would you like the chocolate icecream with chocolate toppings and chocolate syrup, sir? We can put it on a chocolate cone for you and give you a chocolate spoon to enjoy."
Daemon units also don't make much sense. We get horrors but not heralds, DP's but not loci, we get Flamers of Tzeentch when flamers is they only other weapon option we actually have aside from boltguns. We don't get flaming chariots when we are in serious need for mobility. Just why?
And then come the goats. The problem with them is that they manage to fill up all the holes existing before. So now we can't really complain any more, because we really got what was missing. Shock attack troops, body count, decent hth alpha strikes, really good and cheap fast attack harassers. Only we have to stray away from what the faction actually is in order to do that. Oh well. I have been collecting models for 17 years now. I own 6 armies between WHFB and 40k, including 15k point Tyranid armies and 5-6k beastmen. I already own enough goats for a lifetime, I will not be purchasing any more, no matter how badly GW wants me to.
Heavy support slot has to be the most generic and default list ever. It probably took them 5 mins in a meeting room to decide. "how about heavy support?" -"Just the usual. But take away all the oblits and havocs. They are not TS enough" -"but sir, we just added goats and they are not TS enough eith.." -"Just write "goats exist in sorcerer planets for many years". This should fix it. Ok Larry, what's next?"
Overall, if we want to leave aside the disillusionment and the salt altogether, where does the TS book lie? Basically where it was before. Not going to be played at tournaments, gonna be ok in local games, except psychic phase is going to take a lot of time and sometimes annoy people. GW did not invent nor re-invent the wheel with this one. They just reused an old wheel and added some sparkles so it feels less old. Pretty good job if the purpose is to meet the delivery date for "all new codecs in a single year". I would guess that the guy responsible got promoted for delivering the fastest codex of the decade.
Backspacehacker wrote: Eh, I think you are taking to many digs at it. Granted i agree this codex feels more, disciples of tzeentzch, then it does T sons, which depending on how you look at it, could be a good or bad thing. I do agree they should have given us at least heralds as an Elite choice, similar to the shaman. Would like to have seen more in the way of dreadnaughts as well.
Overall this is nether a good codex, nor is it by any means a crappy codex, it really middle of the road, like dead center, which in all honestly is where you wanna be, i guarantee, we wont see any buffs or new stuff for T sons, but at the same time, im betting we are not going to see any nerfs any time soon.
Gimme -2/-3 pts per rubric and I will be the happiest man alive. Toss in some Perils protection (even from a stratagem would do) and I would personally give the author a massage. Or hire someone actually handsome/pretty to do it for me. Don't want it to be a punishment now do we?
I will agree though that them putting daemons into the codex was really weird because all of them are super awkward. Like the only thing your gonna get buffed by is the vortex beast, at which point again your gonna wanna run with tzaangors. I suppose the only thing taht makes sense is, you use them to get summoned in? Im not sure, its really strange since they dont have the T sons key word or anything. Its like someone said, it feels like they just threw them into the codex for flavor text and thats about it.
Backspacehacker wrote: Eh, I think you are taking to many digs at it. Granted i agree this codex feels more, disciples of tzeentzch, then it does T sons, which depending on how you look at it, could be a good or bad thing. I do agree they should have given us at least heralds as an Elite choice, similar to the shaman. Would like to have seen more in the way of dreadnaughts as well.
Overall this is nether a good codex, nor is it by any means a crappy codex, it really middle of the road, like dead center, which in all honestly is where you wanna be, i guarantee, we wont see any buffs or new stuff for T sons, but at the same time, im betting we are not going to see any nerfs any time soon.
Gimme -2/-3 pts per rubric and I will be the happiest man alive. Toss in some Perils protection (even from a stratagem would do) and I would personally give the author a massage. Or hire someone actually handsome/pretty to do it for me. Don't want it to be a punishment now do we?
Oh i am SO with you there on dropping rubric prices. they do have some perils protection, but again, you need to bring magnus, as his rules says, re-roll rolls of 1 when taking a psyker test. That and if you combo him with the cabal strat, you can get infernal gate way off and really make someones day bad when you cast it on a 12+ doing D6 mortal wounds to anything within 3 inches of a unit.
Still the biggest thing i think that needs to be addressed in the codex, aside from our heavy support, is the scarab occult vs rubric, they literally do the exact same job, at almost the same price, but the rubrics have more staying power. I really think they need to bring back instant death rules for force weapons and make the SoT able to cast 2 powers.
Oh i am SO with you there on dropping rubric prices. they do have some perils protection, but again, you need to bring magnus, as his rules says, re-roll rolls of 1 when taking a psyker test. That and if you combo him with the cabal strat, you can get infernal gate way off and really make someones day bad when you cast it on a 12+ doing D6 mortal wounds to anything within 3 inches of a unit.
Still the biggest thing i think that needs to be addressed in the codex, aside from our heavy support, is the scarab occult vs rubric, they literally do the exact same job, at almost the same price, but the rubrics have more staying power. I really think they need to bring back instant death rules for force weapons and make the SoT able to cast 2 powers.
Honestly the only thing the scarabs need is a different implementation for All is dust. Like this: "All is dust: Scarab Occult Terminators suffer 1 less wound than normal from all attacks, to a minimum of one". POW. Have yourself an extremely useful unit, which completely synergizes with the rubrics (because who are you shooting with your 2dmg weapons now?), is durable and can be played both as MSU deep strike shanenaninenigans and as a 10 strong mainstay unit.
Backspacehacker wrote: you can get infernal gate way off and really make someones day bad when you cast it on a 12+ doing D6 mortal wounds to anything within 3 inches of a unit.
I keep reading that, so I think it's time to get things straight :
Infernal Gateway targets the closest MODEL. The d3/d6 Mortal Wound are measured from the targeted MODEL. Not UNIT. It means that 90% of the time, you'll only get d3 MW out of this power (if you manage to cast it...), unless several units happen to be in a 3" range of the CLOSEST MODEL.
Backspacehacker wrote: you can get infernal gate way off and really make someones day bad when you cast it on a 12+ doing D6 mortal wounds to anything within 3 inches of a unit.
I keep reading that, so I think it's time to get things straight :
Infernal Gateway targets the closest MODEL. The d3/d6 Mortal Wound are measured from the targeted MODEL. Not UNIT. It means that 90% of the time, you'll only get d3 MW out of this power (if you manage to cast it...), unless several units happen to be in a 3" range of the CLOSEST MODEL.
tl;dr : this power sucks.
...and the same holds true with most of the lore. I think they purposefully upped all the casting costs under the thinking that we do get bonuses to cast. But then the models got costed around having a bonus to cast. Hmmm.
Backspacehacker wrote: you can get infernal gate way off and really make someones day bad when you cast it on a 12+ doing D6 mortal wounds to anything within 3 inches of a unit.
I keep reading that, so I think it's time to get things straight :
Infernal Gateway targets the closest MODEL. The d3/d6 Mortal Wound are measured from the targeted MODEL. Not UNIT. It means that 90% of the time, you'll only get d3 MW out of this power (if you manage to cast it...), unless several units happen to be in a 3" range of the CLOSEST MODEL.
tl;dr : this power sucks.
Oh gak so it is closest model i stand corrected. Well that does kinda blow chunks.
Discipline of Tzeentch does indeed suck. Gaze of Fate is nice, the rest of the powers are either very situational or outright garbage
Altough it doesn't really matter to me personally as the only ones who can take powers from it are Daemon Princes and Magnus, so it's not like I could take all the powers even if I wanted too.
As for the whole "there are tzeentch daemons in the codex but we cant take them without loosing brotherhood of psykers" - this is indeed weird and a pity, but it's at the very least consistent with CSM and DG.
MinscS2 wrote: Discipline of Tzeentch does indeed suck. Gaze of Fate is nice, the rest of the powers are either very situational or outright garbage
Altough it doesn't really matter to me personally as the only ones who can take powers from it are Daemon Princes and Magnus, so it's not like I could take all the powers even if I wanted too.
As for the whole "there are tzeentch daemons in the codex but we cant take them without loosing brotherhood of psykers" - this is indeed weird and a pity, but it's at the very least consistent with CSM and DG.
Yeah TBH they really should allow exalted to pull from the daemon powers as well. As it stands now i need to use a command point to get a daemon power on a exalted
The daemons are included for the same reason they're included in the other csm codexes: to reference for summoning purposes without needing to buy the Chaos daemons codex. Weird thing to complain about when it's consistent with the heretic astartes and death guard books.
Arachnofiend wrote: The daemons are included for the same reason they're included in the other csm codexes: to reference for summoning purposes without needing to buy the Chaos daemons codex. Weird thing to complain about when it's consistent with the heretic astartes and death guard books.
No they are included because you can take them to fill the slots. They are literally part of the army.
Arachnofiend wrote: The daemons are included for the same reason they're included in the other csm codexes: to reference for summoning purposes without needing to buy the Chaos daemons codex. Weird thing to complain about when it's consistent with the heretic astartes and death guard books.
No they are included because you can take them to fill the slots. They are literally part of the army.
They don't have Thousand Sons keyword and so need their own detachment, just like in the other books. They are in the same situation as the others.
Arachnofiend wrote: The daemons are included for the same reason they're included in the other csm codexes: to reference for summoning purposes without needing to buy the Chaos daemons codex. Weird thing to complain about when it's consistent with the heretic astartes and death guard books.
No they are included because you can take them to fill the slots. They are literally part of the army.
They don't have Thousand Sons keyword and so need their own detachment, just like in the other books. They are in the same situation as the others.
Good point. But then why give TSDP access to Tzeentch spells if your going to bring a Daemon Tzeentch Detachment anyways?
Arachnofiend wrote: The daemons are included for the same reason they're included in the other csm codexes: to reference for summoning purposes without needing to buy the Chaos daemons codex. Weird thing to complain about when it's consistent with the heretic astartes and death guard books.
No they are included because you can take them to fill the slots. They are literally part of the army.
They don't have Thousand Sons keyword and so need their own detachment, just like in the other books. They are in the same situation as the others.
Good point. But then why give TSDP access to Tzeentch spells if your going to bring a Daemon Tzeentch Detachment anyways?
So that you can have more synergy? I hope they FAQ in the nurgle DP having access to Nurgle discipline too.
Good point. But then why give TSDP access to Tzeentch spells if your going to bring a Daemon Tzeentch Detachment anyways?
So you can take powers from the Discipline of Tzeentch without forcing you to take a Daemon detatchment perhaps?
I won't take a Daemon detatchment so I'm glad my TS Daemon Prince still got access to the powers should I want them.
I was incredibly disappointed by the Sons. I was playing a VERY casual Blood Angels army against a Sons player who had:
-Magnus
-Ahriman
-2x Daemon Princes
-2x big blobs of Goats
-1x 5 man Rubric squad
-1x 5 man Scarab squad
-2x Helbrute
-1x Maulerfiend
He went first, failed most of his high cost powers (or they got denied), he got Magnus into my lines against a Razorback and Mephiston. Killed the Razorback, and only did 2 wounds to Mephiston. Mephy in return did 12 to him, and killed Magnus in my turn 1.
The rest of his army really didn't do much besides the two Daemon Princes, the Rubrics died horribly to Overcharged Plasma. Ahriman easily died to Chainsword Death Company, and the goats were penned in by some Rhinos. It was a pretty lackluster showing of the sons.
The other two games the guy played against Guard/Black Templars and Guard/Custodes went even worse than the one he played against me. I watched the first game, and just over half the army died top of turn 1, and the goats did nothing when they came in from deep strike besides kill a screening unit of guardsmen because the other unit failed the charge.
Magnus looks like he lost a lot of his durability, and our Sons player is probably going to shelve them for now since he doesn't want to buy 60 more Tzaangors.
Magnus looks like he lost a lot of his durability, and our Sons player is probably going to shelve them for now since he doesn't want to buy 60 more Tzaangors.
Or he should, I dunno, field an actual army in his next game and not spend over half of his points on 4 model's?
Just a thought.
Magnus looks like he lost a lot of his durability, and our Sons player is probably going to shelve them for now since he doesn't want to buy 60 more Tzaangors.
Or he should, I dunno, field an actual army in his next game and not spend over half of his points on 4 model's?
Just a thought.
I agree. But from what I saw from the rest of it, I really wasn't impressed. He is going to proxy some of his Death Guard stuff as Sons and drop Magnus for a while, in an attempt to improve how it does. Our group is pretty casual, but Magnus still keeps getting blown away game after game.
Magnus looks like he lost a lot of his durability, and our Sons player is probably going to shelve them for now since he doesn't want to buy 60 more Tzaangors.
Or he should, I dunno, field an actual army in his next game and not spend over half of his points on 4 model's?
Just a thought.
I'm pretty sure to field a competitive Thousand Sons list you're going to need to spend a LOT of money on Tzaangor Enlightened. I'm not going to besmirch someone who'd rather shelve what they have than dump all their money on models that aren't even the reason they started playing the army.
NH Gunsmith wrote: I was incredibly disappointed by the Sons. I was playing a VERY casual Blood Angels army against a Sons player who had:
-Magnus
-Ahriman
-2x Daemon Princes
-2x big blobs of Goats
-1x 5 man Rubric squad
-1x 5 man Scarab squad
-2x Helbrute
-1x Maulerfiend
.
I mean, I get that you took casual lists, but yikes. A 5 man rubric squad with no transport? Might as well not even be there. A single maulerfiend? A mostly melee horde oriented thousand sons list against blood angels and the result was not in his favor? I can't say im shocked.
Magnus lost a reroll of 1's on his invuln, I wouldn't say that's a 'lot of durability'. He can still cast a spell on himself (really easy since he's magnus) and get a 3+ invuln permanently. Keep him at max range of guns, screen him from deepstrikers (cultists/tzangors?), and have MULTIPLE THREATS so killing magnus isn't an auto-lose (you have las-preds and mutaliths, magnus shouldn't be the only threat). I'm not trying to be snarky or anything I'm just a little shocked that people say Magnus dies easily when they warptime him up the board by himself and he gets shot to pieces turn 1.
Overall I think the codex is great. Its literally nothing but buffs all around, extra spells, strategems, models, etc. Its literally never been played in tournaments before, so I don't think people can already deduce that its trash tier just by some math-hammering. 40k players are prone to hyperbole and victim complexes. Just look at Sisters players. And Grey Knight players. And Dark Eldar players. I think you'd need a lot of games with tons of different list variations before you can say anything is 'garbage'.
NH Gunsmith wrote: I was incredibly disappointed by the Sons. I was playing a VERY casual Blood Angels army against a Sons player who had:
-Magnus
-Ahriman
-2x Daemon Princes
-2x big blobs of Goats
-1x 5 man Rubric squad
-1x 5 man Scarab squad
-2x Helbrute
-1x Maulerfiend
.
I mean, I get that you took casual lists, but yikes. A 5 man rubric squad with no transport? Might as well not even be there. A single maulerfiend? A mostly melee horde oriented thousand sons list against blood angels and the result was not in his favor? I can't say im shocked.
Magnus lost a reroll of 1's on his invuln, I wouldn't say that's a 'lot of durability'. He can still cast a spell on himself (really easy since he's magnus) and get a 3+ invuln permanently. Keep him at max range of guns, screen him from deepstrikers (cultists/tzangors?), and have MULTIPLE THREATS so killing magnus isn't an auto-lose (you have las-preds and mutaliths, magnus shouldn't be the only threat). I'm not trying to be snarky or anything I'm just a little shocked that people say Magnus dies easily when they warptime him up the board by himself and he gets shot to pieces turn 1.
Overall I think the codex is great. Its literally nothing but buffs all around, extra spells, strategems, models, etc. Its literally never been played in tournaments before, so I don't think people can already deduce that its trash tier just by some math-hammering. 40k players are prone to hyperbole and victim complexes. Just look at Sisters players. And Grey Knight players. And Dark Eldar players. I think you'd need a lot of games with tons of different list variations before you can say anything is 'garbage'.
Magnus still dies horribly if he doesn't go first against any reasonably shooty army because you cant hide him and can't mitigate any incoming damage with anything other than taking a changeling. And even than, equal points of plasmaspam comsquads will murder him 8 times out of ten on their own.
so I finally had a chance to read through the entire codex there are things not in the Codex that should be.
The first there's no kind of unique casting mechanic. Above everything else there should have been some sort of unique casting mechanic to set apart the casting of Thousand Sons casting.
Spells...why do we not have a full lore to ourselves? At least one full lore to ourselveves. Prior to this codex we had access to 13 of our 18 "New" spells. We should have gotten access to Dark Herticus and gotten 2 new lores. Not partial access to 1 lore via 1 HQ unit, and another lore which has so many high charge spells that using.
Familiars for every HQ. They have the models for it. They have 1 HQ with it. There is no reason Exalted Sorcerers at the very least should not have access to familiars.
On the bright side Chaos Daemons got one hell of a supplement.
Who could have thought you'd come to that conclusion.
You're confusing the word "should" with another "aren't". There are things in the codex that aren't in the codex. Yes, you can view our Terminator Sorceror getting a spell familiar as "why didn't everyone get a spell familiar?" You can also view aspiring sorcerors getting plasma pistols as "why didn't everyone get a plasma pistol" and our daemon princes having 4++ and an extra power as "why didn't everyone get 4++ and an extra power?"
Yeah, there's no unique casting mechanics in here. Except for the relic. And the casting aura on Magnus. And the spell familiar. And the +6" range that is our army trait. And the sorcerous elixir reroll. And the +1 to cast boon. and Cabalistic Focus. That's not even counting the regular casting bonuses we get that other armies can also get access to, like +1s and +2s. But no, we don't have the blue scribes - unless you're counting them as part of our army because you said that we "already had" access to the daemon discipline before this somehow.
Magnus looks like he lost a lot of his durability, and our Sons player is probably going to shelve them for now since he doesn't want to buy 60 more Tzaangors.
Or he should, I dunno, field an actual army in his next game and not spend over half of his points on 4 model's?
Just a thought.
Gonna say, fielding 4 knights is a pretty legit army as well.
I read through the Codex with a friend last night. Echoing some comments from before.
Tzaangors are OP. Up to a 30 man unit that can hit on 2s, reroll 1s and wound anything on a 5+. We were trying to think of anything else this powerful in the game and couldn't.
techsoldaten wrote: I read through the Codex with a friend last night. Echoing some comments from before.
Tzaangors are OP. Up to a 30 man unit that can hit on 2s, reroll 1s and wound anything on a 5+. We were trying to think of anything else this powerful in the game and couldn't.
Bloodletters? Do the same thing, but with better AP, better odds to get into combat, and their buff character can actually deep strike in with them to give them that good hit roll?
techsoldaten wrote: I read through the Codex with a friend last night. Echoing some comments from before.
Tzaangors are OP. Up to a 30 man unit that can hit on 2s, reroll 1s and wound anything on a 5+. We were trying to think of anything else this powerful in the game and couldn't.
Bloodletters? Do the same thing, but with better AP, better odds to get into combat, and their buff character can actually deep strike in with them to give them that good hit roll?
I think it's more or tzaangors damage potential is far garter, by making a vortex beast you can make them do stupid stuff, and ontop of that you can make them -1 to hit
Magnus looks like he lost a lot of his durability, and our Sons player is probably going to shelve them for now since he doesn't want to buy 60 more Tzaangors.
Or he should, I dunno, field an actual army in his next game and not spend over half of his points on 4 model's?
Just a thought.
Or he should not target a friggin' razorback when he's in base with Mephiston.
It also smells like bs. Mephiston did 12 wounds. He has 4 D3 attacks...so he hit, wounded, got past invuln, and roll 3 damage for all of his attacks?
Even if it's true it is so unlikely to not even be a proper judge of Magnus.
Magnus has been fired from all my lists because he's not durable enough to really survive anymore. You can't really keep him out of melee and really expect him to be worth the points, to get the most out of him he has to be working in multiple phases, which he just really can't do anymore.
Someone earlier had a great point about Scarabs, they should have gotten the bodyguard ability like the DG special terminator squad, that would at least give you something. I mean I wouldn't be thrilled about using a 250+ point squad to screen Magnus, but it would be something.
Anyhow, it's the Ahriman, Daemon Prince, Tzaangor codex, if that works for your plans, rock on. The rest of it is a copy-paste repackaging and marketing exercise.
I think it's more or tzaangors damage potential is far garter, by making a vortex beast you can make them do stupid stuff, and ontop of that you can make them -1 to hit
210 + 150 + 90 + 121
To make this magical unit you have spent over 570 points at a minimum. IF you can get them there with all the support in place and IF you can succeed on the spells and IF the mutalith succeeds and IF you get first turn.
For that I could bring 3 LRBT with PGC and BRRRRRT them off the table. Heck i'd only need two of them to get the rest on morale.
techsoldaten wrote: I read through the Codex with a friend last night. Echoing some comments from before.
Tzaangors are OP. Up to a 30 man unit that can hit on 2s, reroll 1s and wound anything on a 5+. We were trying to think of anything else this powerful in the game and couldn't.
They are a bomb, just like many other codexes have, no better, no worse really. Well maybe a little worse since it has to melee to actually work, as opposed to several other bombs where weathering Overwatch is an optional bonus opportunity for damage.
techsoldaten wrote: I read through the Codex with a friend last night. Echoing some comments from before.
Tzaangors are OP. Up to a 30 man unit that can hit on 2s, reroll 1s and wound anything on a 5+. We were trying to think of anything else this powerful in the game and couldn't.
Bloodletters? Do the same thing, but with better AP, better odds to get into combat, and their buff character can actually deep strike in with them to give them that good hit roll?
I think it's more or tzaangors damage potential is far garter, by making a vortex beast you can make them do stupid stuff, and ontop of that you can make them -1 to hit
-1 to hit potential, I'll definitely give you. But lets actually look at this:
-the combo we're talking about here is deep striking 1 unit of Tzaangors, using the one-use Warptime power on them, and then using their 2CP attack again stratagem. We're comparing it to deep striking the bloodletter bomb for 2cp, using the 1cp banner, and then using their 3CP attack again power. 3CP more expensive, definitely a big factor. But bloodletters buff THEMSELVES vs Tzaangors requiring powers or auras be cast on themselves.
Bloodletters in a unit of 30 are, by themselves, WS2+, A2, S5, AP-3, and deal 2 damage on a wound roll of 6. If you do give them that buff character (the very same Daemon Prince you're factoring in to give the Tzaangors 2+ rerollable to hit) they ALSO get the locus of wrath, making that 71% chance charge they make on 3D6 re-rollable, giving them a 91.8% chance of making it into combat.
Even if you give the Tzaangors an 85 point shaman for 2+ to hit, a 180 point daemon prince for rerolling 1s, three 150 point mutaliths for +1S and +2AP, they're STILL not dealing as much damage because they dont deal 2 damage on a 6 to wound. And here's the thing: Bloodletters are hardly dominating tournaments as far as we know.
Their defenses and relative CP-cheapness are really their only advantage here. That to me says I'd rather use Bloodletters as a killing bomb (where I'm loading them up with buffs and committing to them) and Tzaangors as a distraction/tie-up unit. In which case, I'm not buffing them beyond the one character I need to send in to warptime them, probably a terminator sorc, because his Warptime is 12% more reliable with the +1 to cast, and he deep strikes natively and also casts the -1 to hit spell I want to give them as well wheras the shaman would only give me warptime and would force me to give up attacks by daisy-chaining my tzaangors back to him.
techsoldaten wrote: I read through the Codex with a friend last night. Echoing some comments from before.
Tzaangors are OP. Up to a 30 man unit that can hit on 2s, reroll 1s and wound anything on a 5+. We were trying to think of anything else this powerful in the game and couldn't.
"Tzaangors are OP, they do crazy stuff when you invest a lot of points in several other model's in order to buff them!"
So basically you're saying that 220 pts of Tzaangors hit pretty hard when buffed by a 90 pts Shaman, and 180 pts Daemon Prince (or 140 pts Exalted Sorcerer) and a 150 pts Mutalith.
I fail to see the sensation here, you're essentially spending over 400 points on buffing a unit. The sensation would be if this 400 point investment did nothing...
Hypebole of the day...
The comparison with Bloodletters is pretty good. Bloodletters barely need any support in order to "function". Tzaangors need twice their own cost...
Tzaangors of both flavors are shaping up to be serious Bullgryns when it comes to the internet. They have near infinite buffed potential but unbuffed they're average.
Unless you can 100% control a circumstance you have to consider what happens when you don't have it.
Tzaangors and a Termie sorc deep strike in, cast a highly reliable warptime and get an unfailable charge with the Stratagems - you'll usually do with your 100something WS3+ AP-1 S4 attacks what the letters do with their 50something WS2+ S5 AP-3 with bonus damage attacks.
Then, the tzaangors are harder to kill. Yay! But they can't attack again, and the letters can if it's worth the 3cp. Booo.
Tzaangors bomb is a defensive letter bomb. But it costs about 110 points more (Termie sorc) and comes in a more flexible detachment (daemons or khorne daemons). And it's just one element of a good list. Tzaangors spam just isn't going to work as a whole list, the effectiveness of every squad after the first drops off too hard, just like with letters. You need more elements. I'm highly unconvinced that the best of daemons and csm is going to be overshadowed by the best of Tsons and daemons/Csm in tournaments.
- I don't care if this codex is very powerful or awful.
- I want to have a proper representation of the background and story and variety of units of the Thousand Sons LEGION in the 40k universe.
- This codex does not meet anything of those. It is not a Thousand Sons Codex, it is a Servants of Tzeentch Codex or a Tzeentch Random Crap Circus Codex... - The "design" team of GW has showed here that they cannot come up with anything minimally imaginative or interesting. They had the problem of a lack of variety of model kits for this codex, but instead of waiting to have more kits availables or USE the current kits to make 2 or 3 different units with each one, they simply grab some random crap from dead Fantasy and stick it in the "supposed" TS codex. Lazy and boring.
So, this altogether with dull and stupid rules for 8th in general, made me to stop playing 40k. Maybe if some of us gather together and think about it, we can come up with a better codex for the Thousand Sons than GW, but the basic rules would still be crap, so...
- I don't care if this codex is very powerful or awful.
- I want to have a proper representation of the background and story and variety of units of the Thousand Sons LEGION in the 40k universe.
- This codex does not meet anything of those. It is not a Thousand Sons Codex, it is a Servants of Tzeentch Codex or a Tzeentch Random Crap Circus Codex... - The "design" team of GW has showed here that they cannot come up with anything minimally imaginative or interesting. They had the problem of a lack of variety of model kits for this codex, but instead of waiting to have more kits availables or USE the current kits to make 2 or 3 different units with each one, they simply grab some random crap from dead Fantasy and stick it in the "supposed" TS codex. Lazy and boring.
So, this altogether with dull and stupid rules for 8th in general, made me to stop playing 40k. Maybe if some of us gather together and think about it, we can come up with a better codex for the Thousand Sons than GW, but the basic rules would still be crap, so...
I would have been stoked on life if they would have added a silver tower model into the game, or rules for it and just say, the silver tower is x by y in base size and can look how ever you want.
- I don't care if this codex is very powerful or awful.
- I want to have a proper representation of the background and story and variety of units of the Thousand Sons LEGION in the 40k universe.
- This codex does not meet anything of those. It is not a Thousand Sons Codex, it is a Servants of Tzeentch Codex or a Tzeentch Random Crap Circus Codex... - The "design" team of GW has showed here that they cannot come up with anything minimally imaginative or interesting. They had the problem of a lack of variety of model kits for this codex, but instead of waiting to have more kits availables or USE the current kits to make 2 or 3 different units with each one, they simply grab some random crap from dead Fantasy and stick it in the "supposed" TS codex. Lazy and boring.
So, this altogether with dull and stupid rules for 8th in general, made me to stop playing 40k. Maybe if some of us gather together and think about it, we can come up with a better codex for the Thousand Sons than GW, but the basic rules would still be crap, so...
If you really want a variety of units that represents the Thousand Sons LEGION, as you put it, and doesn't have any of the things you don't like about 8th, I think I know a game system that might make you very happy...
...meanwhile, in 40k, the thousand sons are what they've always been. A cabal of sorcerors that uses rubrics, daemons, daemon engines, cultists, mutants, and whatever other disposable tools they can get their manipulative scheming hands on to get their plans to fruition. They aren't and havent been a cohesive LEGION for 10,000 years, or however many editions of 40k. Tzeentch Random Crap Circus is what you get when you play Thousand Sons in the 40k time period. It's obviously not what you want. So don't play it. But don't pretend that everyone else should be forced to eat the same power-armored dry cracker sleeve of cookie-cutter boredom that you want to, because the fluff doesn't and hasn't ever supported that.
30k exists. The 30k version of thousand sons exist, in 30k. If you want to port them over, be my guest and do it, but it's going to start and end as a fan project because the way that the thousand sons fight in 30k is different from how they fight in 40k, with all power armored units, a command structure, non-psyker units, and specialist power armored units.
That's said! I do wish we would have gotten 1 new unit, like a psyker dreads but over all I'm pretty damn happy with t sons.
As much as I'd love some sort of venerable psyker-dread as well, we did techincally get 4 new units:
- Tzaangor Shamans.
- Tzaangor Enlightened.
- Tzaangor Skyfires. (Same datasheet as Enlightened but they're as different from another as Mutilators and Obliterators.)
- Mutalith Vortex Beast.
Now some might argue that these model's got ported over from WFB/AoS, and sure they did, but they're new units for us regardless.
Alot of people also are against the fact that we mostly got Tzaangor-units, which while true, it is also highly subjective if this is a bad thing or not.
Personally I love Tzaangors and I love Disc's, so I'm all over this "new" release and our new codex.
...meanwhile, in 40k, the thousand sons are what they've always been. A cabal of sorcerors that uses rubrics, daemons, daemon engines, cultists, mutants, and whatever other disposable tools they can get their manipulative scheming hands on to get their plans to fruition. They aren't and havent been a cohesive LEGION for 10,000 years, or however many editions of 40k. Tzeentch Random Crap Circus is what you get when you play Thousand Sons in the 40k time period. It's obviously not what you want. So don't play it. But don't pretend that everyone else should be forced to eat the same power-armored dry cracker sleeve of cookie-cutter boredom that you want to, because the fluff doesn't and hasn't ever supported that.
Well, i'm afraid that that is not true. We have discussed this before, so if you want to make things up, go ahead, but it doesn't mean that what you say is more true. I'm sorry, i will repeat again.
RT is not 40k, not in background specially. Current fluff was a thing from 2nd onwards. In 2nd edition there was "Thousand Sons marines" and "Tzeentch demons". In 3rd edition there was "Thousand Sons marines" and again demons. And in the 3.5 codex there was a complete expanded army list for the Thousand Sons army. Guess what? There were no cultist, no mutants and no demon engines as you say.
The list of units were:
- Characters - all sorcerers
- Sorcerers units
- Terminator sorcerer units
- Rubric terminators units
- Rubric marines units
- Tzeentch demons: Horrors, flamers and screamers units
- dreadnoughts, predators, land raiders and rhinos
And as another user said it, that little army list was much more varied and had more love and work into it than the whole 8th TS codex. Cultists was a thing for the alpha legion and nobody else. Mutants and gakky-things were a thing for the "Lost and the Damned" army list, representing hordes of crap exiting the Eye of Terror. They were not part of the other legions. Nor in the 4th edition codex, that was for the 4th and 5th editions if i'm not mistaken. I don't know what kind of gak came in 6th and 7th so all the people is so content and likes the dull codexes of this edition, for me it is getting more and more disappointing and sad...
From that list, you can ADD more units: Psyker dreadnoughts, special vehicles, demon engines, etc... It really is not so hard to do, even with the current plastic kits. It just baffles my mind that they added nothing at all...
And if you think those mutants are a part of the fluff, ok, it's not a problem. I never had a problem with the single unit of Tzaangors. It is fine to be there as part of the army, as long as you have the core of the units properly fleshed out and represented. And not the other way around. In the "TS" 8th codex, GW has expanded the mutants and left untouched the proper TS units, so yes, that pissed me off really badly, i'm sorry to be an annoyance to anyone.
30k exists. The 30k version of thousand sons exist, in 30k. If you want to port them over, be my guest and do it, but it's going to start and end as a fan project because the way that the thousand sons fight in 30k is different from how they fight in 40k, with all power armored units, a command structure, non-psyker units, and specialist power armored units.
I stopped playing the first time at the very beginning of 5th edition, way before FW released any model for the Horus Heresy. That is not for what i started 40k in the first place. So, no, it is not 30k ported to 40k what i want.
Personally I love Tzaangors and I love Disc's, so I'm all over this "new" release and our new codex.
Well, I love the Tzaangor models and rules, but I think the discs looks goofy as hell. I would have loved if Enlightened were simply Tzaangors with wings, Swooping Hawk style.
It also would have been nice if the (very excellent) exalted sorcerer kit were a sorcerer+termie sorcerer+exalted sorcerer kit. I doubt that many will run triple exalted sorcerers when Ahriman and Demon princes are so good. And the CSM terminator sorcerer is simply not as great a model as the excellent TS sculpts.
NH Gunsmith wrote: I was incredibly disappointed by the Sons. I was playing a VERY casual Blood Angels army against a Sons player who had:
-Magnus
-Ahriman
-2x Daemon Princes
-2x big blobs of Goats
-1x 5 man Rubric squad
-1x 5 man Scarab squad
-2x Helbrute
-1x Maulerfiend
He went first, failed most of his high cost powers (or they got denied), he got Magnus into my lines against a Razorback and Mephiston. Killed the Razorback, and only did 2 wounds to Mephiston. Mephy in return did 12 to him, and killed Magnus in my turn 1.
The rest of his army really didn't do much besides the two Daemon Princes, the Rubrics died horribly to Overcharged Plasma. Ahriman easily died to Chainsword Death Company, and the goats were penned in by some Rhinos. It was a pretty lackluster showing of the sons.
The other two games the guy played against Guard/Black Templars and Guard/Custodes went even worse than the one he played against me. I watched the first game, and just over half the army died top of turn 1, and the goats did nothing when they came in from deep strike besides kill a screening unit of guardsmen because the other unit failed the charge.
Magnus looks like he lost a lot of his durability, and our Sons player is probably going to shelve them for now since he doesn't want to buy 60 more Tzaangors.
I was going to write a long and boring critique of this post (not the person post, but its contents). then I just decided to cut to the chase. And here it is. That list is balls to the wall horrible. For so many reasons. I mean terrible. If he enjoys playing it, sweet. But he has no business being salty when losing with it. Because that is what is going to happen repeatedly. He is also playing a pure army vs soup which is a huge disadvantage to him. The playing here is what was the worst. Why is he playing Maggy like he is Morty? Maggy is NOT a beat stick. One look at his underwhelming melee stats (compared to other walker super heavys) could have told him that. Why is Ahriman not being screened by cultists? Where is is ranged AT that should have taken care of the Rhinos? Where is the mutalith? Where is the shaman? tzangs need support. They demand it. Just taking one big blob wont be blowing anyones socks off unsupported. And as far as cheap bodies cultists do it cheaper and have auto-guns. How is Meph putting 12 wounds on Magnus is one round of close combat? Why is Magnus targeting the Razorback when hes getting into a fight with a HQ?
Honestly, this is how a new player plays and makes a list.
Now you may think I am being hyper critical and a bit WAAC. I am not. I am pointing out how posts like these fuel the dakka hyperbole. You cannot judge the health of a codex on three games , two of them vs guard soup, where he not only brought one of the worst lists ive seen AND played horribly on top of that.
So 3.5 Edition fluff is the standard of fluff for 8th Edition? I'm sorry but that's a stupid argument to try and justify one's distaste for Tzaangors. Tzaangors existed prior to 3.5. The fluff of Warhammer 40,000 as a whole has changed massively from 3.5, just as it changed massively from Rogue Trader.
Should Genestealer Cults not be in the game too? What about the Adeptus Mechanicus? The Solitaire was around at one point, then it left, but now it's back. So fluff-breaking amirite lads? Sarcasm aside, let me put it succinctly so everyone here can understand it clearly.
They are EXPANDING the army list and fluff of Thousand Sons. This codex has more fluff written about the Thousand Sons than any other codex before them had combined. Sortarius being inhabited by scores of mutants makes perfect sense and isn't "lore-breaking". Thousand Sons in 40K are not actively against mutation, or are we going to start poking fingers at the Exalted Sorcerer kit? Hell, someone on this forum implied Daemon Princes were unfluffy for Thousand Sons when their Primarch is literally a bloody Daemon Prince.
I can't believe people can hold religiously to one part of the fluff yet try to invalidate the fluff that PRECEDED it. Goodness. The irony is that none of you would be complaining about "muh fluff" if they had simultaneously added the new units we got (Shaman, Enlightened/Skyfires, Mutalith) AND released an additional Rubricae kit or two (i.e. corrupted Osiron, melee Rubrics), it's just an inane complaint that's completely tangential to the legitimately valid issue, that being the lack of diversity in the actual Thousand Sons Astartes kits.
Now, as far as the codex goes...
I'm really digging it, and under-selling how competitive it can be when paired up with other Chaos factions is to your detriment. By spending 1-4 CP you can Deep Strike 1 to 2 units, teleport a unit mid-game (Dark Matter Crystal) and get one of Chaos' only means of regenerating CPs (Helm of the Third Eye). That can seem like a lot of CP but consider that you can get a Tzeentch Daemon battalion for ~230 points, and said battalion gives you the equal cheapest screen in the game and two decent psykers. Tzeentch armies have such cheap access to CP that it'd be a crime not to have at least 9 in every army list, and for only a few dozen points you can upgrade one of those cheap psykers to the Changeling who effectively doubles the durability of those screening units, can be situationally scary in combat and makes your Daemon Engines tankier if they have the Tzeentch keyword. If you're not running Daemon Princes, having access to Flickering Flames on a Defiler/Forgefiend is amusing and worth every point spent on the Daemon detachment. Besides, the Horror bomb works amazingly well in conjunction with Tzaangor bombs.
Deep Striking Tzaangors are scary as hell. Are they as scary as Deep Striking Bloodletters? As I myself have pointed out, it's an unequivocal "no" even if you mega-buff them. The difference is that Tzaangors can be much, much harder for your opponent to actually get rid of because you can combo up Weaver of Fates and Glamour of Tzeentch on them; T4 bodies that are -1 to-hit with 4+ invulnerable saves that can be Warptimed straight into combat are not easy to deal with. They are better for tarpitting than Bloodletters in that sense. However, Bloodletters are both completely self-sufficient and hit harder. There is a note to be made of CP costs, though; 1CP for the crucial banner, either 1 or 2CP to Deep Strike the unit (usually 2 as you'll want one of a good size) Contrast this to Tzaangors who can Deep Strike for 1CP regardless of unit size, or 3CP for two units, and who get their buffs from psychic powers instead of spending more CP. Something to keep in mind.
Also, I dig Mutaliths and think they're going to be more common than people expect. Not too expensive, can dish out a lot of pain up close if not dealt with quickly (mortal wound aura) and super-buff both combat units and Horrors/Flamers.
Again, the animosity is not behind tzaangors, the animosity is that the codex is geared up more to buff tzaangors then rubrics/SoT which are what make the Tsons. tsons.
So it's weird to say I run a T sons army here is my one, rubric unit and my ass ton of tzaangors.
A lot of people got into the sons because they liked rubrics and spell casters, and the bread and butter unit of the new Dex is more favorable to tzaangors. It would be like saying hey I'm really into Tau, ok the best thing to do for them is run a crap ton of kroots, and like 2 battle suits.
Backspacehacker wrote: Again, the animosity is not behind tzaangors, the animosity is that the codex is geared up more to buff tzaangors then rubrics/SoT which are what make the Tsons. tsons.
So it's weird to say I run a T sons army here is my one, rubric unit and my ass ton of tzaangors.
A lot of people got into the sons because they liked rubrics and spell casters, and the bread and butter unit of the new Dex is more favorable to tzaangors. It would be like saying hey I'm really into Tau, ok the best thing to do for them is run a crap ton of kroots, and like 2 battle suits.
Tried a few games out with 2 big units of Enlightened with Bows (2 units of 9) - and I know they aren't popular from a fluff stand point but man from a rules stand point they get nasty. I had the 2 unit surrounding 2 Tzaangor Shamans (probably could have cut one) and Ahriman and I was very pleased with the results.
Farseer_V2 wrote: Tried a few games out with 2 big units of Enlightened with Bows (2 units of 9) - and I know they aren't popular from a fluff stand point but man from a rules stand point they get nasty. I had the 2 unit surrounding 2 Tzaangor Shamans (probably could have cut one) and Ahriman and I was very pleased with the results.
Oh yeah they are dumb, like the bows, just wounding on a 5+ for your to hit roll is crazy against high toughness units. Then giving them prescience and making it so a hit roll of 4+ is a wound, no questions asked, is crazy good.
Oh I see you have a land raider over there. Ok my 2 vortex beasts are gonna make my bows -2 AP, buffing them so they have a +2 to hit, and here comes 9 assault 3 weapons at you4+ auto wound.
Backspacehacker wrote: Again, the animosity is not behind tzaangors, the animosity is that the codex is geared up more to buff tzaangors then rubrics/SoT which are what make the Tsons. tsons.
So it's weird to say I run a T sons army here is my one, rubric unit and my ass ton of tzaangors.
A lot of people got into the sons because they liked rubrics and spell casters, and the bread and butter unit of the new Dex is more favorable to tzaangors. It would be like saying hey I'm really into Tau, ok the best thing to do for them is run a crap ton of kroots, and like 2 battle suits.
It is optimal to run exactly. One. Unit. of tzaangors. We've been going over this - you can only cast Warptime once, and it is THE SPELL that makes tzaangor bomb function. The defensive buffs that make them worth taking over the 'letterbomb are again, solo unit, one use. The stratagem that allows you to deep strike them is again, only optimal when dropping exactly one unit, and is absolutely capped at two.
Skyfires? Shamans? Both are entirely optional units, and while they're Ok, even good when you combo them together, their mid-strength weaponry that's good at wounding things but low damage is hardly unique and essential in the Thousand Sons roster, especially if you include daemons.
You are probably going to have less rubrics than Tzaangors if you run a mix of both, numerically, because rubrics cost three times more. I am either going to use Tzaangors, Daemons, or Cultists with my army, not because Tzaangors are so op omg broken gw pushing the new models, but because 8th edition requires you have some bodies if you are a shooting army. You need something standing in front of your shooters, or you will fold, that is a basic fact of 8th. Don't like the new Tzaangors/Mutalith? The only thing you could even say comes close to essential is a single unit of tzaangors to use as a flexible bomb/screen. The same unit of tzaangors we had rules for before, and you took no issue with, and the same auxiliary playstyle.
Farseer_V2 wrote: Tried a few games out with 2 big units of Enlightened with Bows (2 units of 9) - and I know they aren't popular from a fluff stand point but man from a rules stand point they get nasty. I had the 2 unit surrounding 2 Tzaangor Shamans (probably could have cut one) and Ahriman and I was very pleased with the results.
Oh yeah they are dumb, like the bows, just wounding on a 5+ for your to hit roll is crazy against high toughness units. Then giving them prescience and making it so a hit roll of 4+ is a wound, no questions asked, is crazy good.
Oh I see you have a land raider over there. Ok my 2 vortex beasts are gonna make my bows -2 AP, buffing them so they have a +2 to hit, and here comes 9 assault 3 weapons at you4+ auto wound.
And, oooooooooooone more time, you are forgetting the mutalith only works on melee weapons, it can't give AP to the bows. Also, mutaliths can't give you +1 to hit either, so I'm not sure what the second one is doing in this scenario.
It's super easy to find OP combos in the rules if you continuously get those rules wrong.
Backspacehacker wrote: Again, the animosity is not behind tzaangors, the animosity is that the codex is geared up more to buff tzaangors then rubrics/SoT which are what make the Tsons. tsons.
So it's weird to say I run a T sons army here is my one, rubric unit and my ass ton of tzaangors.
A lot of people got into the sons because they liked rubrics and spell casters, and the bread and butter unit of the new Dex is more favorable to tzaangors. It would be like saying hey I'm really into Tau, ok the best thing to do for them is run a crap ton of kroots, and like 2 battle suits.
I'm making pretty damn good use out of spells and MSU rubrics. We'll see how it does at the local tournament in a couple weeks.
You don't need to warp time tzaangors to get the bomb off.
It isn't, but it's what makes the bomb good. Banking your strategy on getting your 30-man blob in on a 41% chance is a great way to not have yourself an optimized list.
If you bring two blobs, the second is going to be SIGNIFICANTLY less optimal than the first because it doesn't get warptime, it doesn't get cycle of slaughter, it doesn't get weaver, it doesn't get glamor.
You are complaining that the optimal way to run thousand sons is to run more and more and more tzaangors, I'm just pointing out that that is patently false. Tzaangors HEAVILY drop off in effectiveness if you take more than a single unit, and even more after you take two because you cannot deep strike the third or later unit of tzaangors. They work really really well as a single-unit auxiliary, and not nearly as well as the backbone of an army. Exactly the opposite of what you are complaining about.
Farseer_V2 wrote: Tried a few games out with 2 big units of Enlightened with Bows (2 units of 9) - and I know they aren't popular from a fluff stand point but man from a rules stand point they get nasty. I had the 2 unit surrounding 2 Tzaangor Shamans (probably could have cut one) and Ahriman and I was very pleased with the results.
Oh yeah they are dumb, like the bows, just wounding on a 5+ for your to hit roll is crazy against high toughness units. Then giving them prescience and making it so a hit roll of 4+ is a wound, no questions asked, is crazy good.
Oh I see you have a land raider over there. Ok my 2 vortex beasts are gonna make my bows -2 AP, buffing them so they have a +2 to hit, and here comes 9 assault 3 weapons at you4+ auto wound.
Backspacehacker wrote: Again, the animosity is not behind tzaangors, the animosity is that the codex is geared up more to buff tzaangors then rubrics/SoT which are what make the Tsons. tsons.
So it's weird to say I run a T sons army here is my one, rubric unit and my ass ton of tzaangors.
A lot of people got into the sons because they liked rubrics and spell casters, and the bread and butter unit of the new Dex is more favorable to tzaangors. It would be like saying hey I'm really into Tau, ok the best thing to do for them is run a crap ton of kroots, and like 2 battle suits.
For goodness' sake, I addressed that in my post, and I've addressed it every time someone has made the same bloody argument. Read it through again. There is literally a poster on the page my previous post was on that said Tzaangors were breaking the fluff. That was who my post was directed at, AND I commented that said people would NOT be complaining if they ALSO released more Rubricae/Astartes kits at the same time, especially as said new units would get their own stratagems and cool rules. If a "muh fluff" argument gets dropped because GW also adds some new Rubricae units, the "muh fluff" argument has zero merit; it's those people I take umbrage with. I personally am still annoyed there's no real Rubric/Scarab specific stratagems (one that triggers only when they die does not count no matter how hard their Facebook page tries to spin it) so don't even try to pull that line on me, you're preaching to the choir at this point.
And no, the Mutalith AP ability does not work on ranged weapons. Also no, an 8" charge is not "impossible" but it's not guaranteed, whereas once you've got Warptime off it pretty much is provided you took the near-mandatory Brayhorn. If you're going to "bomb", you want to make it as reliable as possible, and Warptime+Brayhorn is the Tzaangor answer to Khorne's re-roll charges + 3D6" total charge roll.
It isn't, but it's what makes the bomb good. Banking your strategy on getting your 30-man blob in on a 41% chance is a great way to not have yourself an optimized list.
If you bring two blobs, the second is going to be SIGNIFICANTLY less optimal than the first because it doesn't get warptime, it doesn't get cycle of slaughter, it doesn't get weaver, it doesn't get glamor.
You are complaining that the optimal way to run thousand sons is to run more and more and more tzaangors, I'm just pointing out that that is patently false. Tzaangors HEAVILY drop off in effectiveness if you take more than a single unit, and even more after you take two because you cannot deep strike the third or later unit of tzaangors. They work really really well as a single-unit auxiliary, and not nearly as well as the backbone of an army. Exactly the opposite of what you are complaining about.
Actually, this is not accounting for the ability to Deep Strike separate blobs on different turns. Unless I'm crazy and the Webway stratagem forces both units to come down at the same time, the idea is to drop one blob at a time. You mega-buff the first one, send it in, watch the carnage. Said unit is likely to get eviscerated in the following turn even with Glamour and Weaver up, and if it doesn't, it's already done its job at that point; clearing out the chaff or whatever element of your opponents army you wanted to tie up/remove. Then, you Deep Strike the second blob after the first one is stuck in and proceed to stack all the buffs on it, sending it after the juicy backfield (which the first blob should have cleared a path for) The alternative way to do the same tactic is to blob Pink Horrors to clear the chaff then send a Tzaangor blob in.
It isn't, but it's what makes the bomb good. Banking your strategy on getting your 30-man blob in on a 41% chance is a great way to not have yourself an optimized list.
If you bring two blobs, the second is going to be SIGNIFICANTLY less optimal than the first because it doesn't get warptime, it doesn't get cycle of slaughter, it doesn't get weaver, it doesn't get glamor.
You are complaining that the optimal way to run thousand sons is to run more and more and more tzaangors, I'm just pointing out that that is patently false. Tzaangors HEAVILY drop off in effectiveness if you take more than a single unit, and even more after you take two because you cannot deep strike the third or later unit of tzaangors. They work really really well as a single-unit auxiliary, and not nearly as well as the backbone of an army. Exactly the opposite of what you are complaining about.
Actually, this is not accounting for the ability to Deep Strike separate blobs on different turns. Unless I'm crazy and the Webway stratagem forces both units to come down at the same time, the idea is to drop one blob at a time. You mega-buff the first one, send it in, watch the carnage. Said unit is likely to get eviscerated in the following turn even with Glamour and Weaver up, and if it doesn't, it's already done its job at that point; clearing out the chaff or whatever element of your opponents army you wanted to tie up/remove. Then, you Deep Strike the second blob after the first one is stuck in and proceed to stack all the buffs on it, sending it after the juicy backfield (which the first blob should have cleared a path for) The alternative way to do the same tactic is to blob Pink Horrors to clear the chaff then send a Tzaangor blob in.
Yep, that is an alternative way to do it, but (I'd argue, at least) you're going to have trouble beating the Pink Horrors with the second Tzaangor blob version of the strategy. And you're still dropping off some of the effectiveness of your second blob (your first tzaangors are likely to have cleared out everything that they're optimal to clear out if they did their job well, and if they died horribly to something, odds are good the second tzaangor blob wont do any better). Pinks on the other hand could even be deployed together with the tzaangors in the first turn, helping to clear out some of the chaff in front of the tzaangors so they can get to more useful targets behind it.
All good points. Ultimately the Deep Striking melee blobs are there both to kill stuff and stop stuff from shooting, that's why I like dual blobs - whether Horrors + Tzaangors or Tzaangors + Tzaangors - to clear chaff and then tie up tanks/artillery. It can very much depend on your meta. Alaitoc Eldar don't care about Horrors, for example, and they can easily block your first blob with Hemlocks and Rangers. Depends on the Alaitoc list though, as within 12" the Horrors will still cut through Rangers provided there aren't too many of them. Two blobs though? Now we're talking. On the flip side, Horrors will mulch a Guard infantry line and can be hard to shift in return.
Actually, this is not accounting for the ability to Deep Strike separate blobs on different turns. Unless I'm crazy and the Webway stratagem forces both units to come down at the same time, the idea is to drop one blob at a time. You mega-buff the first one, send it in, watch the carnage. Said unit is likely to get eviscerated in the following turn even with Glamour and Weaver up, and if it doesn't, it's already done its job at that point; clearing out the chaff or whatever element of your opponents army you wanted to tie up/remove. Then, you Deep Strike the second blob after the first one is stuck in and proceed to stack all the buffs on it, sending it after the juicy backfield (which the first blob should have cleared a path for) The alternative way to do the same tactic is to blob Pink Horrors to clear the chaff then send a Tzaangor blob in.
Lots of risk getting your first squad blown away and exposing your characters.
I was going to write a long and boring critique of this post (not the person post, but its contents). then I just decided to cut to the chase. And here it is. That list is balls to the wall horrible. For so many reasons. I mean terrible. If he enjoys playing it, sweet. But he has no business being salty when losing with it. Because that is what is going to happen repeatedly. He is also playing a pure army vs soup which is a huge disadvantage to him. The playing here is what was the worst. Why is he playing Maggy like he is Morty? Maggy is NOT a beat stick. One look at his underwhelming melee stats (compared to other walker super heavys) could have told him that. Why is Ahriman not being screened by cultists? Where is is ranged AT that should have taken care of the Rhinos? Where is the mutalith? Where is the shaman? tzangs need support. They demand it. Just taking one big blob wont be blowing anyones socks off unsupported. And as far as cheap bodies cultists do it cheaper and have auto-guns. How is Meph putting 12 wounds on Magnus is one round of close combat? Why is Magnus targeting the Razorback when hes getting into a fight with a HQ?
Honestly, this is how a new player plays and makes a list.
Now you may think I am being hyper critical and a bit WAAC. I am not. I am pointing out how posts like these fuel the dakka hyperbole. You cannot judge the health of a codex on three games , two of them vs guard soup, where he not only brought one of the worst lists ive seen AND played horribly on top of that.
Oh I agree, it wasn't a very good list. All I wanted to do was point out my observations of what I saw.
He is a broke college kid, so he only ran what he had or was able to trade for. Thankfully his Death Guard is far better constructed and generally better played. And I agree that Magnus shouldn't be played like Mortarion, they are very different. He had just been playing his Death Guard for so long, I think he just got into the habit of throwing a daemon primarch directly into the fight.
What had happened with Magnus vs Mephiston is that he put 2 of his attacks on the Razorback, and the rest of Mephy. He finished off the Razorback and was able to wound Mephy 4 times. I saved two of the wound rolls on a 6, and the resulting 6 damage was brought down to 2 through Mephiston's feel no pain stacking with the Banner of Sacrifice's feel no pain. Since they are 2 different abilities with 2 different names they both activate and saved Mephiston's butt. Mephiston was also in range of a Captain and Lieutenant, so all of his attacks hit and wounded. The Magnus player rolled like garbage for his invul, and the resulting D3 damage rolls added up to 12 damage. It was an absolute fluke, although he killed Mephiston in my turn 1 fight phase, I spent the 2 CP on Only In Death Does Duty End to allow Mephiston to swing before he was killed and he finished off Magnus. So, like stated, an absolute fluke.
It didn't help he either failed his important powers, or they got denied with the 3 denials I had on the field at the time.
My Rhinos were also behind line of sight blocking terrain so the 2 twin-las/missile Helbrutes couldn't see them. And the one he could see got super-smited off the board by Magnus.
He also though he had blocked off Ahriman from being charged by the Death Company, but accidentally left a small corridor for them to deploy behind him and make it in with a 3D6" charge.
With the terrain and how I deployed, I was able to mitigate a lot of the stuff he had and allow my army to take some punches if I went second (like I did). So that was a real lesson for him.
I was just sharing what it is that I saw in my game, and his other two games. I had feared Magnus since (surprisingly) it was the first time I had faced him in 8th. It was really just the perfect storm of bad rolls on his part, and some bad positioning, stacked with a lackluster list.
Actually, this is not accounting for the ability to Deep Strike separate blobs on different turns. Unless I'm crazy and the Webway stratagem forces both units to come down at the same time, the idea is to drop one blob at a time. You mega-buff the first one, send it in, watch the carnage. Said unit is likely to get eviscerated in the following turn even with Glamour and Weaver up, and if it doesn't, it's already done its job at that point; clearing out the chaff or whatever element of your opponents army you wanted to tie up/remove. Then, you Deep Strike the second blob after the first one is stuck in and proceed to stack all the buffs on it, sending it after the juicy backfield (which the first blob should have cleared a path for) The alternative way to do the same tactic is to blob Pink Horrors to clear the chaff then send a Tzaangor blob in.
Lots of risk getting your first squad blown away and exposing your characters.
I think the key here (assuming you play with this dual blob style, I myself do) is having some smaller chaff screens around (I tend to have about 4 units of 10 man cultists on the table) to help keep your characters wrapped up.
I think the key here (assuming you play with this dual blob style, I myself do) is having some smaller chaff screens around (I tend to have about 4 units of 10 man cultists on the table) to help keep your characters wrapped up.
Yea, but if you're supporting a deepstrike they are not likely in place to do so.
Lots of risk getting your first squad blown away and exposing your characters.
You're underselling the Thousand Sons Legion trait. Barring Warptime, all but one of those buff powers can come from 24" away. Even Warptime gets a 9" range under Thousand Sons rules, and it shouldn't be too hard to keep the caster back far enough or in a good enough spot that they don't have to worry too much about a counter-offensive.
Alpha strike armies by their nature take new risks and minimize other risks, it's a completely different way to play the game. Your characters can be exposed if you're not careful, but you also protect key units from getting destroyed before they can do anything. If your Terminator Sorcerer manages to Warptime a Tzaangor blob into the enemy lines, he's paid for himself already. All your other buff powers should come from elsewhere if you build the list right.
In the competitive list I'm building, my only Deep Striking characters are a Herald of Tzeentch to give my Pink Horrors +1 Strength as well as Flickering Flames and the Sorcerer in Terminator Armour to give me Warptime on the go. If my Tzaangor blob comes down second turn after my Horror blob has done some damage, either the Sorcerer Lord can hide with what's left of the Horrors or he'll be joined by my waves of Cultists advancing up the field while I keep Brimstones back on my homefield objectives. All my buffs aside from Warptime and Flickering Flames come from characters that hide behind the Cultist wall and have the mobility to surge forward if I need them to.
If you're too worried about the blob(s) failing and the character(s) getting exposed (if you combine a Horror and Tzaangor blob together, that shouldn't happen) you can give the Dark Matter Crystal to someone else and simply teleport a Cultist blob up-field to protect that/those forward character(s).
You're confusing the word "should" with another "aren't". There are things in the codex that aren't in the codex. Yes, you can view our Terminator Sorceror getting a spell familiar as "why didn't everyone get a spell familiar?" You can also view aspiring sorcerors getting plasma pistols as "why didn't everyone get a plasma pistol" and our daemon princes having 4++ and an extra power as "why didn't everyone get 4++ and an extra power?"
Yeah, there's no unique casting mechanics in here. Except for the relic. And the casting aura on Magnus. And the spell familiar. And the +6" range that is our army trait. And the sorcerous elixir reroll. And the +1 to cast boon. and Cabalistic Focus. That's not even counting the regular casting bonuses we get that other armies can also get access to, like +1s and +2s. But no, we don't have the blue scribes - unless you're counting them as part of our army because you said that we "already had" access to the daemon discipline before this somehow.
No, should is the correct word. Everyone did get plasma Pistols except Unique units and Terminator units, which is what you would expect. Granted the only other models that got it were the Exalted Sorcerer and the Aspiring Sorcerer which were the only ones that should get it, but even on that point your wrong because an army of Sorcerers would have most if not all of its Sorcerers using Familiars to augment thier casting ability. The only way you could try to explain this away would be that they don't have the models, which you should check out the AoS section, in perticular the "Chaos Familiar Pack" which comes with 10 chaos familiars. They have the models, the lore encourages it, our WC values are high on most of our spells, they would make money selling the pack, in fact it makes less sense to have a Sorc in termie armor have a familiar and not have an Exalted Sorcerer with a familiar.
They, above all, are an Army of Sorcerers and to not have a unique mechanic like eldars double spell mechanic or GK modified smite mechanic is, well there is literally no reason for it. Not add bonus' to rolls there is nothing unique about that mechanic. Rerolls and +1s and -1s are plentiful in this game. Something like multiple WC for increased spell effects. EG Tzeentch Firestorm can be cast at WC 5, 7, and 9 at 5 you get 6 dice at 7 you get 8 dice at 9 you get 10 dice. Of everything you listed the only unique thing is the Relic which will rarely happen doesn't improve your ability to cast spells, cannot choose the spell it occurs on, and will likely have little to no impact on the game if you did take it.
To the Daemon Discipline point yes we had access to it prior to the codex. Now we don't need to take a detachment to have access to them, but we never did before, because summoning. We have 1 model which has access to spells, and most of them don't directly benefit that model. The one that does has better more reliable versions in DH.
To the people arguing Bloodletters vs Tzaangors debate, Tzaangors when fully buffed will do equal damage agianst GEQ and MEQ (basically anything with 1w) 'Letters will kill multiwound units better, the main difference is Tzaangors can get a guarnteed charge from DS (WT + Brayhorn) and can avoid any non-augmented overwatch (GoT means your 6s become 5s and you miss), which is not including other shenanigans like casting ToT on a charcter and having him charge close enough so that you can surround him with your consolidation/Pile in move. Rendering any shooting plans you had on your turn moot, Keep in mind Bloodletters take 3x the wounds as Tzaangors from Lasgun fire, and they have a lower LD, which means what ever your going to use to kill the bloodletters multiply that by 3 if you want to get rid of the Tzaangors.
per 10 Lasguns assuming 1RF2RF
6.6 wounds to Bloodletters
2.2 wounds to Tzaangors
No, should is the correct word. Everyone did get plasma Pistols except Unique units and Terminator units, which is what you would expect. Granted the only other models that got it were the Exalted Sorcerer and the Aspiring Sorcerer which were the only ones that should get it, but even on that point your wrong because an army of Sorcerers would have most if not all of its Sorcerers using Familiars to augment thier casting ability. The only way you could try to explain this away would be that they don't have the models, which you should check out the AoS section, in perticular the "Chaos Familiar Pack" which comes with 10 chaos familiars. They have the models, the lore encourages it, our WC values are high on most of our spells, they would make money selling the pack, in fact it makes less sense to have a Sorc in termie armor have a familiar and not have an Exalted Sorcerer with a familiar.
They, above all, are an Army of Sorcerers and to not have a unique mechanic like eldars double spell mechanic or GK modified smite mechanic is, well there is literally no reason for it. Not add bonus' to rolls there is nothing unique about that mechanic. Rerolls and +1s and -1s are plentiful in this game. Something like multiple WC for increased spell effects. EG Tzeentch Firestorm can be cast at WC 5, 7, and 9 at 5 you get 6 dice at 7 you get 8 dice at 9 you get 10 dice. Of everything you listed the only unique thing is the Relic which will rarely happen doesn't improve your ability to cast spells, cannot choose the spell it occurs on, and will likely have little to no impact on the game if you did take it.
To the Daemon Discipline point yes we had access to it prior to the codex. Now we don't need to take a detachment to have access to them, but we never did before, because summoning. We have 1 model which has access to spells, and most of them don't directly benefit that model. The one that does has better more reliable versions in DH.
To the people arguing Bloodletters vs Tzaangors debate, Tzaangors when fully buffed will do equal damage agianst GEQ and MEQ (basically anything with 1w) 'Letters will kill multiwound units better, the main difference is Tzaangors can get a guarnteed charge from DS (WT + Brayhorn) and can avoid any non-augmented overwatch (GoT means your 6s become 5s and you miss), which is not including other shenanigans like casting ToT on a charcter and having him charge close enough so that you can surround him with your consolidation/Pile in move. Rendering any shooting plans you had on your turn moot, Keep in mind Bloodletters take 3x the wounds as Tzaangors from Lasgun fire, and they have a lower LD, which means what ever your going to use to kill the bloodletters multiply that by 3 if you want to get rid of the Tzaangors.
per 10 Lasguns assuming 1RF2RF
6.6 wounds to Bloodletters
2.2 wounds to Tzaangors
In Age of Sigmar, the game system where said Familiar pack comes from, I want you to tally up the amount of wizards that can actually use Chaos Familiars.
I'll wait............hint; it's not that many.
The Sorcerer in Terminator Armour kit comes with a Familiar, that's literally the entire reason he alone has access to it (because the other Sorcerer kits our army uses don't come with them)
If you want to jump down that rabbit hole, go and ask Death Guard players how they feel about half their codex not having Disgustingly Resilient, and show them how our generic unit entries shared with other Chaos factions (Sorcerer in Terminator Armour, Sorcerer, Daemon Prince, etc) get access to Inferno weapons/improved invulnerable saves/can cast more spells.
We do have a unique spell mechanic. We add +6" to our spell ranges Also we do have modified Smites; in fact, three of our unique units have special versions of Smite. Magnus has Perils protection and a re-roll casting rolls of 1 aura. We have a bunch of characters with in-built casting bonuses. We have the most versatile psykers in the entire game. Who cares about unique if we do the psychic phase so well? Of note, the only "unique" thing about Thousand Sons casting in 7th Edition was we had a psyker that manifested warp charges on 2+ and completely ignored Perils.
What are you talking about with "1 model which has access to spells"? Do you mean Daemon Princes? Don't forget Magnus! Also, don't forget the Chaos Familiar stratagem. Also also wik. But seriously, who cares if a spell like Flickering Flames doesn't buff our Daemon Prince? He can cast it on a Forgefiend/Defiler/Decimator or other Daemon Engine.
That's the key point here. "When fully buffed" Tzaangors need; 1CP (or 3CP if you put another unit in the Webway) to Deep Strike, Warptime to make their charge go from unlikely to extremely likely, Prescience so they hit on 2s, 1CP for Veterans of the Long War so they get +1 to-wound, +1 Strength from a Mutalith so they are Strength 5, +1 to their AP from a second Mutalith so they are AP-2, Weaver of Fates for +1 to their invulnerable saves, Glamour of Tzeentch so enemies are -1 to-hit them and 2CP to fight twice. That's 2CP, 2 Mutaliths (300 dollary-doos) and either Ahriman/Magnus with the "cast an extra power" stratagem or, much more likely, two psykers (so minimum 200+ gummi bears) That's fully buffed. At minimum, they need Warptime and 1/3CP to teleport, but then they'll have nowhere near the hitting power of the Bloodletters and their staying power won't be that much better (T3 VS T4) which gets worse seeing as they would be killing a lot less than the Bloodletters.
Let's contrast this to Bloodletters! Bloodletters need; 1/2CP to teleport (based on unit size) 1CP for the relic banner and 3CP to fight twice. That's it.
That can't be right!? It sure is though! Without needing any investment, they charge 3D6 total with re-rolls meaning they are nearly guaranteed to charge compared to a Tzaangor unit (average of 3D6 is 10.5/11 and after Deep Strike they are 9" away, with a re-roll your chances of failure are miniscule) with a Brayhorn that's been unaffected by Warptime (i.e. if an opponent stops the power, which some armies are very good at doing!) they already hit on 2+ (in a big unit) they are already Strength 5 on the charge and they have -3AP base. Buffed Tzaangors are much harder to kill but they still don't hit as hard and the Bloodletters require far less investment to function properly than Tzaangors, they are a straight up unit-deleting bomb that is very much "point and click" in comparison to Tzaangors. This also means that if you do have buffs to throw around, you can put them on other stuff that actually needs them!
Also, Overwatch is unaffected by modifiers unless said modifiers specifically state they affect Overwatch. Glamour doesn't. As I've been telling you from the moment you cried "Tzaangors can't get +1 to-hit because that would be too good" (paraphrasing) Bloodletters literally exist in the Thousand Sons' sister codex and are an overall better unit (in a Deep Strike bomb list) that needs far less points investment. The only points in Tzaangors favour is that they can be a lot harder to kill than Bloodletters (in some match-ups the Toughness 4 over Toughness 3 makes no difference) and the Bloodletters tend to be more CP intensive. It just so happens that having a Tzeentch equivalent of the Bloodletter bomb that can have an even more reliable charge (IF you get Warptime off) and can be much harder to kill has a lot of merit to it, hence why I've been trying it out lately.
You're confusing the word "should" with another "aren't". There are things in the codex that aren't in the codex. Yes, you can view our Terminator Sorceror getting a spell familiar as "why didn't everyone get a spell familiar?" You can also view aspiring sorcerors getting plasma pistols as "why didn't everyone get a plasma pistol" and our daemon princes having 4++ and an extra power as "why didn't everyone get 4++ and an extra power?"
Yeah, there's no unique casting mechanics in here. Except for the relic. And the casting aura on Magnus. And the spell familiar. And the +6" range that is our army trait. And the sorcerous elixir reroll. And the +1 to cast boon. and Cabalistic Focus. That's not even counting the regular casting bonuses we get that other armies can also get access to, like +1s and +2s. But no, we don't have the blue scribes - unless you're counting them as part of our army because you said that we "already had" access to the daemon discipline before this somehow.
No, should is the correct word. Everyone did get plasma Pistols except Unique units and Terminator units, which is what you would expect. Granted the only other models that got it were the Exalted Sorcerer and the Aspiring Sorcerer which were the only ones that should get it, but even on that point your wrong because an army of Sorcerers would have most if not all of its Sorcerers using Familiars to augment thier casting ability. The only way you could try to explain this away would be that they don't have the models, which you should check out the AoS section, in perticular the "Chaos Familiar Pack" which comes with 10 chaos familiars. They have the models, the lore encourages it, our WC values are high on most of our spells, they would make money selling the pack, in fact it makes less sense to have a Sorc in termie armor have a familiar and not have an Exalted Sorcerer with a familiar.
They, above all, are an Army of Sorcerers and to not have a unique mechanic like eldars double spell mechanic You mean like the mechanic where their support mini-HQs get access to one spell discipline and their full HQs get another? Yeah, ours is totally different from that, in that it is the same...but better, because our HQs got access to BOTH the mini-HQ discipline and the regular one. or GK modified smite mechanic You're literally referring to the mechanic where Grey Knights get a less powerful version of smite that can have its range increased. That's what you're talking about here? you mean that thing that we have except again, better, because our HQs DONT have to deal with mini-smite? is, well there is literally no reason for it. Not add bonus' to rolls there is nothing unique about that mechanic. Rerolls and +1s and -1s are plentiful in this game. Something like multiple WC for increased spell effects. EG Tzeentch Firestorm can be cast at WC 5, 7, and 9 at 5 you get 6 dice at 7 you get 8 dice at 9 you get 10 dice. Of everything you listed the only unique thing is the Relic which will rarely happen doesn't improve your ability to cast spells, cannot choose the spell it occurs on, and will likely have little to no impact on the game if you did take it. This is a dice game. If you disqualify die shifts and rerolls as "oh just the same thing other people have" even if they work differently from anyone elses (sorcerous elixir and Familiar are in fact different from what anyone else has, and nobody else can get a permanent casting bonus mid-game like we can from boon) then you're just engaging in sloppy ad-hoc reasoning to maintain your hate boner. and that's just frankly sad to watch.
To the Daemon Discipline point yes we had access to it prior to the codex. So you're saying that right now we have access to the Death Guard psychic discipline and the Slaanesh and Nurgle daemon disciplines as well? Wow, so Thousand Sons get 36 powers?!?!?!?! Now we don't need to take a detachment to have access to them, but we never did before, because summoning. ....so we just have access to the nurgle and slaanesh daemon powers, or...? We have 1 model which has access to spells, Two. Is being honest with your arguments REALLY this difficult? You keep forgetting Magnus, the primarch of the entire legion, his model is like a foot tall and he has giant 3" long nipple horns, man, he's pretty distinctive! and most of them don't directly benefit that model. Well, three of them don't. One because it only affects shooting attacks from daemons (which is quite beneficial for 3 units found within the Thousand Sons codex in particular) and two because they deal mortal wounds. Frankly, I'm glad the mortal wounds don't affect me, though if we're getting pedantic, AND BOY OH BOY ARE WE, infernal gateway totally does affect the caster if the target is within 3". The one that does has better more reliable versions in DH. Right, because it affects a whole unit. I'd kind of hope the buff that only works on one model would be stronger.
To the people arguing Bloodletters vs Tzaangors debate, Tzaangors when fully buffed will do equal damage agianst GEQ and MEQ (basically anything with 1w) Literally only if you're buffing them with 385 points of support models that you have to get within 6-9". You need to get them within range of the Shaman and two mutaliths to get equivalent damage to what Bloodletters get right out of the box. 'Letters will kill multiwound units better, the main difference is Tzaangors can get a guarnteed charge from DS Tzaangors have a weighted 83.4% chance of getting into combat off deep strike (71.7% chance to auto-succeed with Warptime, 41% chance to get their 8" charge off if you fail warptime.) Bloodletters have a 71.2% chance of getting in with their 3D6" charge, and a 91.8% chance to get in if there is any Khorne Daemon character with the locus within range. There is no significant distinction between the two units' reliability of getting in off the charge, particularly if we're already granting the Tzaangors a character to give them Warptime (WT + Brayhorn) and can avoid any non-augmented overwatch Wrong again. Overwatch can't be modified normally, only by rules that explicitly say they affect overwatch. Glamour doesn't. (GoT means your 6s become 5s and you miss), which is not including other shenanigans like casting ToT on a charcter and having him charge close enough so that you can surround him with your consolidation/Pile in move. ToT is the single least reliable spell in the game. Also, you can't declare him as a target for your charge OR pile in towards him, because until the end of the turn he's not counted as an enemy model. Though you can just have him charge, assuming that you succeed at the usually around 19% chance of getting Treason off. Rendering any shooting plans you had on your turn moot, Keep in mind Bloodletters take 3x the wounds as Tzaangors from Lasgun fire Do you ever try doing the math before making a statement? I'm assuming your estimate here is figuring that every Tzaangor squad in existence has Glamour and Weaver on at all times? Because otherwise they take 1.33x more shots to kill. , and they have a lower LD, which means what ever your going to use to kill the bloodletters multiply that by 3 if you want to get rid of the Tzaangors.
per 10 Lasguns assuming 1RF2RF
6.6 wounds to Bloodletters
2.2 wounds to Tzaangors
This is a highly honest comparison. I'm sure whenever you factor in wounds vs GEQ, you always assume that they have both Nightshroud and Barrier up to make sure the numbers are padded - I mean, taking account of all normal factors.
Oh, I see. He counted glamour and weaver in that math.
You can't both argue that we can't cast our spells, because of the high WC, and then math in that you succeed at every spell when determining the viability of Tzaangors.
You can't both argue that we can't cast our spells, because of the high WC, and then math in that you succeed at every spell when determining the viability of Tzaangors.
When you're so desperate to make anything fit your narrative that you're starting to look like a troll, you can...
Regarding the Tzaangor bomb and its effectiveness (I posted about this in the TSons tactics thread as well) - I played a game with a 30 man bomb with the only support as Warptime and Prescience (one from a deepstriking terminator and one from Ahriman) and they were able to help me take a game by clearing one of my opponents two big units of guardians.
More to the point of why I used them over the Bloodletter bomb - I like 2 of the TSons relics quite a bit (the Dark Crystal and the Helm). I also like having a pretty good fistful of CP and I need a TSons detachment to get access to their relics (by virtue of accessing their stratagems) and I don't want to spend 3 CP to do so. Not especially given than I'm spending 3 on my Tzaangors early already. So ultimately I do think the 'letters hit a little harder the Tzaangors are an acceptable substitute that allow me access to some other traits and relics that I want at the same time. Hope this isn't too rambling and makes a bit of sense regarding a more tangible benefit of Tzaangors versus 'Letters.
Arachnofiend wrote: Overwatch is unaffected by to-hit modifiers, Glamour does nothing to it.
Your right totally forgot about that.
Caederes wrote: In Age of Sigmar, the game system where said Familiar pack comes from, I want you to tally up the amount of wizards that can actually use Chaos Familiars.
I'll wait............hint; it's not that many.
And how does that stop our units from getting it? That isn't an argument that's on observation, and one that doesn't even prevent us from getting the familiars.
Caederes wrote: The Sorcerer in Terminator Armour kit comes with a Familiar, that's literally the entire reason he alone has access to it (because the other Sorcerer kits our army uses don't come with them)
If you want to jump down that rabbit hole, go and ask Death Guard players how they feel about half their codex not having Disgustingly Resilient, and show them how our generic unit entries shared with other Chaos factions (Sorcerer in Terminator Armour, Sorcerer, Daemon Prince, etc) get access to Inferno weapons/improved invulnerable saves/can cast more spells.
So your saying the reason we can't have the Familiars is because we have to buy an upgrade pack? Like when GW linked the AoS battle force box and said buy this 12.50 spure to get Chainswords for your Tzaangors?
Caederes wrote: We do have a unique spell mechanic. We add +6" to our spell ranges Also we do have modified Smites; in fact, three of our unique units have special versions of Smite. Magnus has Perils protection and a re-roll casting rolls of 1 aura. We have a bunch of characters with in-built casting bonuses. We have the most versatile psykers in the entire game. Who cares about unique if we do the psychic phase so well? Of note, the only "unique" thing about Thousand Sons casting in 7th Edition was we had a psyker that manifested warp charges on 2+ and completely ignored Perils.
Neither of the things you mentioned is unique. Bonus' and rerolls are plentiful in this game, so are modified Smites. Magnus' perils protection is useful but is not game changing or really appealing to anyone that dosent want to run Magnus.
Caederes wrote: What are you talking about with "1 model which has access to spells"? Do you mean Daemon Princes? Don't forget Magnus! Also, don't forget the Chaos Familiar stratagem. Also also wik. But seriously, who cares if a spell like Flickering Flames doesn't buff our Daemon Prince? He can cast it on a Forgefiend/Defiler/Decimator or other Daemon Engine.
Look I realize lots of people run Magnus, I don't. I never remember Magnus. I ran him a couple times, and never will agian, I dont like titan models in general. We do not have the CP to be spend on exchanging spells which we already chose.
Caederes wrote: That's the key point here. "When fully buffed" Tzaangors need; 1CP (or 3CP if you put another unit in the Webway) to Deep Strike, Warptime to make their charge go from unlikely to extremely likely, Prescience so they hit on 2s, 1CP for Veterans of the Long War so they get +1 to-wound, +1 Strength from a Mutalith so they are Strength 5, +1 to their AP from a second Mutalith so they are AP-2, Weaver of Fates for +1 to their invulnerable saves, Glamour of Tzeentch so enemies are -1 to-hit them and 2CP to fight twice. That's 2CP, 2 Mutaliths (300 dollary-doos) and either Ahriman/Magnus with the "cast an extra power" stratagem or, much more likely, two psykers (so minimum 200+ gummi bears) That's fully buffed. At minimum, they need Warptime and 1/3CP to teleport, but then they'll have nowhere near the hitting power of the Bloodletters and their staying power won't be that much better (T3 VS T4) which gets worse seeing as they would be killing a lot less than the Bloodletters.
Even when not fully buffed Letters have a durability disadvantage which puts them at a huge disadvantage. Even in a situation where the letters get the charge off and get to swing first they are only going to kill 1/2 the Tzaangor unit and the Tzaangor unit will kill half the Letters in return, Tzaangors get the charge off and Letters lose 25 models and the remaining 5 Bloodletters kill 5 Tzaangors. The difference is
Caederes wrote: Let's contrast this to Bloodletters! Bloodletters need; 1/2CP to teleport (based on unit size) 1CP for the relic banner and 3CP to fight twice. That's it.
That can't be right!? It sure is though! Without needing any investment, they charge 3D6 total with re-rolls meaning they are nearly guaranteed to charge compared to a Tzaangor unit (average of 3D6 is 10.5/11 and after Deep Strike they are 9" away, with a re-roll your chances of failure are miniscule) with a Brayhorn that's been unaffected by Warptime (i.e. if an opponent stops the power, which some armies are very good at doing!) they already hit on 2+ (in a big unit) they are already Strength 5 on the charge and they have -3AP base. Buffed Tzaangors are much harder to kill but they still don't hit as hard and the Bloodletters require far less investment to function properly than Tzaangors, they are a straight up unit-deleting bomb that is very much "point and click" in comparison to Tzaangors. This also means that if you do have buffs to throw around, you can put them on other stuff that actually needs them!
Yes, I get they have a lower threshold, but they have no way to buff their durability, and are limited to one of those charges per game, and will die immediately afterward to 30 guardsman worth of small arms fire. The Tzaangors will require 90 Guardsman. I'm not saying that Tzaangors are better at killing everything im saying overall Tzaangors win out they can do most of what Bloodletters can do, they can do it multiple times, and they take 3x the damage when buffed. The simple fact is with two Mutaliths I can flex the Tzaangors so they have the most effective setup against what ever they are fighting. I think being able to pick between having -3 ap or having S6 attacks and having 3x the durability is better than having S6 and AP -3 attacks, but getting deleted immediately after you kill something is rather annoying
Caederes wrote: Also, Overwatch is unaffected by modifiers unless said modifiers specifically state they affect Overwatch. Glamour doesn't. As I've been telling you from the moment you cried "Tzaangors can't get +1 to-hit because that would be too good" (paraphrasing) Bloodletters literally exist in the Thousand Sons' sister codex and are an overall better unit (in a Deep Strike bomb list) that needs far less points investment. The only points in Tzaangors favour is that they can be a lot harder to kill than Bloodletters (in some match-ups the Toughness 4 over Toughness 3 makes no difference) and the Bloodletters tend to be more CP intensive. It just so happens that having a Tzeentch equivalent of the Bloodletter bomb that can have an even more reliable charge (IF you get Warptime off) and can be much harder to kill has a lot of merit to it, hence why I've been trying it out lately.
Yeah, that has been pointed out already not sure why I thought it did. I never said "can't" I said "aren't" and if I I said it would make Tzaangors way to strong and it did. As long as you have goats on the table you are hitting on 2s rerolling 1s, and I have this crazy Idea that no army should have access to something that allows people to have everything they put on the table hit on 2s and reroll 1s.
You're confusing the word "should" with another "aren't". There are things in the codex that aren't in the codex. Yes, you can view our Terminator Sorceror getting a spell familiar as "why didn't everyone get a spell familiar?" You can also view aspiring sorcerors getting plasma pistols as "why didn't everyone get a plasma pistol" and our daemon princes having 4++ and an extra power as "why didn't everyone get 4++ and an extra power?"
Yeah, there's no unique casting mechanics in here. Except for the relic. And the casting aura on Magnus. And the spell familiar. And the +6" range that is our army trait. And the sorcerous elixir reroll. And the +1 to cast boon. and Cabalistic Focus. That's not even counting the regular casting bonuses we get that other armies can also get access to, like +1s and +2s. But no, we don't have the blue scribes - unless you're counting them as part of our army because you said that we "already had" access to the daemon discipline before this somehow.
No, should is the correct word. Everyone did get plasma Pistols except Unique units and Terminator units, which is what you would expect. Granted the only other models that got it were the Exalted Sorcerer and the Aspiring Sorcerer which were the only ones that should get it, but even on that point your wrong because an army of Sorcerers would have most if not all of its Sorcerers using Familiars to augment thier casting ability. The only way you could try to explain this away would be that they don't have the models, which you should check out the AoS section, in perticular the "Chaos Familiar Pack" which comes with 10 chaos familiars. They have the models, the lore encourages it, our WC values are high on most of our spells, they would make money selling the pack, in fact it makes less sense to have a Sorc in termie armor have a familiar and not have an Exalted Sorcerer with a familiar.
They, above all, are an Army of Sorcerers and to not have a unique mechanic like eldars double spell mechanic You mean like the mechanic where their support mini-HQs get access to one spell discipline and their full HQs get another? Yeah, ours is totally different from that, in that it is the same...but better, because our HQs got access to BOTH the mini-HQ discipline and the regular one. or GK modified smite mechanic You're literally referring to the mechanic where Grey Knights get a less powerful version of smite that can have its range increased. That's what you're talking about here? you mean that thing that we have except again, better, because our HQs DONT have to deal with mini-smite? is, well there is literally no reason for it. Not add bonus' to rolls there is nothing unique about that mechanic. Rerolls and +1s and -1s are plentiful in this game. Something like multiple WC for increased spell effects. EG Tzeentch Firestorm can be cast at WC 5, 7, and 9 at 5 you get 6 dice at 7 you get 8 dice at 9 you get 10 dice. Of everything you listed the only unique thing is the Relic which will rarely happen doesn't improve your ability to cast spells, cannot choose the spell it occurs on, and will likely have little to no impact on the game if you did take it. This is a dice game. If you disqualify die shifts and rerolls as "oh just the same thing other people have" even if they work differently from anyone elses (sorcerous elixir and Familiar are in fact different from what anyone else has, and nobody else can get a permanent casting bonus mid-game like we can from boon) then you're just engaging in sloppy ad-hoc reasoning to maintain your hate boner. and that's just frankly sad to watch.
To the Daemon Discipline point yes we had access to it prior to the codex. So you're saying that right now we have access to the Death Guard psychic discipline and the Slaanesh and Nurgle daemon disciplines as well? Wow, so Thousand Sons get 36 powers?!?!?!?! Now we don't need to take a detachment to have access to them, but we never did before, because summoning. ....so we just have access to the nurgle and slaanesh daemon powers, or...? We have 1 model which has access to spells, Two. Is being honest with your arguments REALLY this difficult? You keep forgetting Magnus, the primarch of the entire legion, his model is like a foot tall and he has giant 3" long nipple horns, man, he's pretty distinctive! and most of them don't directly benefit that model. Well, three of them don't. One because it only affects shooting attacks from daemons (which is quite beneficial for 3 units found within the Thousand Sons codex in particular) and two because they deal mortal wounds. Frankly, I'm glad the mortal wounds don't affect me, though if we're getting pedantic, AND BOY OH BOY ARE WE, infernal gateway totally does affect the caster if the target is within 3". The one that does has better more reliable versions in DH. Right, because it affects a whole unit. I'd kind of hope the buff that only works on one model would be stronger.
To the people arguing Bloodletters vs Tzaangors debate, Tzaangors when fully buffed will do equal damage agianst GEQ and MEQ (basically anything with 1w) Literally only if you're buffing them with 385 points of support models that you have to get within 6-9". You need to get them within range of the Shaman and two mutaliths to get equivalent damage to what Bloodletters get right out of the box. 'Letters will kill multiwound units better, the main difference is Tzaangors can get a guarnteed charge from DS Tzaangors have a weighted 83.4% chance of getting into combat off deep strike (71.7% chance to auto-succeed with Warptime, 41% chance to get their 8" charge off if you fail warptime.) Bloodletters have a 71.2% chance of getting in with their 3D6" charge, and a 91.8% chance to get in if there is any Khorne Daemon character with the locus within range. There is no significant distinction between the two units' reliability of getting in off the charge, particularly if we're already granting the Tzaangors a character to give them Warptime (WT + Brayhorn) and can avoid any non-augmented overwatch Wrong again. Overwatch can't be modified normally, only by rules that explicitly say they affect overwatch. Glamour doesn't. (GoT means your 6s become 5s and you miss), which is not including other shenanigans like casting ToT on a charcter and having him charge close enough so that you can surround him with your consolidation/Pile in move. ToT is the single least reliable spell in the game. Also, you can't declare him as a target for your charge OR pile in towards him, because until the end of the turn he's not counted as an enemy model. Though you can just have him charge, assuming that you succeed at the usually around 19% chance of getting Treason off. Rendering any shooting plans you had on your turn moot, Keep in mind Bloodletters take 3x the wounds as Tzaangors from Lasgun fire Do you ever try doing the math before making a statement? I'm assuming your estimate here is figuring that every Tzaangor squad in existence has Glamour and Weaver on at all times? Because otherwise they take 1.33x more shots to kill. , and they have a lower LD, which means what ever your going to use to kill the bloodletters multiply that by 3 if you want to get rid of the Tzaangors.
per 10 Lasguns assuming 1RF2RF
6.6 wounds to Bloodletters
2.2 wounds to Tzaangors
This is a highly honest comparison. I'm sure whenever you factor in wounds vs GEQ, you always assume that they have both Nightshroud and Barrier up to make sure the numbers are padded - I mean, taking account of all normal factors.
No I don't mean like having mini-HQ units I mean like having spells with a unique mechanic like I said.
I never said it was a good mechanic I said it was a mechanic.
I'm not saying its not a mechanic im saying its not a unique mechanic.
"So you're saying that right now we have access to the Death Guard psychic discipline and the Slaanesh and Nurgle daemon disciplines as well? Wow, so Thousand Sons get 36 powers?!?!?!?!" *Sigh* Really? Did you have Tzeentch marked Daemons in your army prior to the Codex? Could you Summon a HoT? Then what stopped you from using the spells on the units people intend to now? Defilers with FF or Mauler Fiends with BoC, or just casting GoF. What actually changed with the codex? We got a more expensive platform to cast the spells from.
I forget Magnus a lot. Mostly because I never run him. So I don't really think about him.
WE are not getting pedantic YOU are. So I'll say this again in a different way, what spells do you have access to now without taking any Daemon Detachments that you didn't have access to prior to the codex? The answer is none. Turn 1 summon HoT in Movement Phase, pick spells you want him to cast. Cast spell you want to in Psychic Phase. We gained the ability to move and cast that's it.
What do the chances become if you use a +1 to cast WT or a +2 for that matter?
I guess it's a good thing we choose the order of the spells. Cast ToT first goes off? Great beat the LD of the Character? Even better now I don't need to use GoT or WoF on them I can buff other units with those spells. ToT doesn't go off? well that sucks cast GoT and WoF on the Tzaangors.
Daedalus81 wrote: Oh, I see. He counted glamour and weaver in that math.
You can't both argue that we can't cast our spells, because of the high WC, and then math in that you succeed at every spell when determining the viability of Tzaangors.
Which would have been obvious if you had read the post, or at least the part just before the math where I talk about how Tzaangors are way more durable when buffed with GoT and WoF, and it's not that we can't cast 2 or 3 spells. It's that we should be casting 8-9 spells a turn and most of them are 7+ THAT is what we can't do, at least not unless we spend 700+ points on casters, but then what I said was AS are not going to be able to cast these spells reliably, and its the only discipline they have access too.
MinscS2 wrote: When you're so desperate to make anything fit your narrative that you're starting to look like a troll, you can...
Are you ever going to try and refute anything that I say or are you going to just take cheap shots at me?
Are you ever going to try and refute anything that I say or are you going to just take cheap shots at me?
I used to, but you either ignored the posts, made some strange counter-argument or outright lied to prove a point.
After that I can't be bothered, you're what one would call a "lost cause". I can't stop you from hating the codex but it's getting tedious to read after a while.
Which would have been obvious if you had read the post, or at least the part just before the math where I talk about how Tzaangors are way more durable when buffed with GoT and WoF, and it's not that we can't cast 2 or 3 spells. It's that we should be casting 8-9 spells a turn and most of them are 7+ THAT is what we can't do, at least not unless we spend 700+ points on casters, but then what I said was AS are not going to be able to cast these spells reliably, and its the only discipline they have access too.
LOL, no, you were not very clear about your assumptions, because it is massively fething disingenuous to make an "apples to apples" comparison where one side has hundreds more of points in support and the other does not - especially when factoring in spells you are not guaranteed to cast - and maintain it over MULTIPLE turns.
It's a hole so big I could drive a bloodthirster through it. Literally.
Which would have been obvious if you had read the post, or at least the part just before the math where I talk about how Tzaangors are way more durable when buffed with GoT and WoF, and it's not that we can't cast 2 or 3 spells. It's that we should be casting 8-9 spells a turn and most of them are 7+ THAT is what we can't do, at least not unless we spend 700+ points on casters, but then what I said was AS are not going to be able to cast these spells reliably, and its the only discipline they have access too.
LOL, no, you were not very clear about your assumptions, because it is massively fething disingenuous to make an "apples to apples" comparison where one side has hundreds more of points in support and the other does not - especially when factoring in spells you are not guaranteed to cast - and maintain it over MULTIPLE turns.
It's a hole so big I could drive a bloodthirster through it. Literally.
Okay what bonus' do bloodletters get for durability maybe I'm missing something. GoT is WC 7 WoF is WC 6. A Termie Sorc Warlord with the proper trait and a familiar can cast both those spells on a 5 which is an 83.3 % cast rate for both spells. When you say not casting your talking about edge cases which wont usually happen.
Not to mention support for the bloodletters at minimum need a DP which is 156 points of support, and if you don't want to risk losing the +1 to hit you have to overwatch you need a Skulltaker as well pushing the total up to 240 points, so its not like they are getting no support. Problem for bloodletters is they have, to my knowledge nothing which buffs thier durability, which is way more effective.
Are you ever going to try and refute anything that I say or are you going to just take cheap shots at me?
I used to, but you either ignored the posts, made some strange counter-argument or outright lied to prove a point.
After that I can't be bothered, you're what one would call a "lost cause". I can't stop you from hating the codex but it's getting tedious to read after a while.
Fair enough. Although it's also possible, i simply didn't see your posts.
I know GW has the stupid "No Models, No Rules" stance and so I get that the Sorcerer in TA is the only datasheet that allows for a familiar. Even though there is a kit with nothing but familiars so we actually have models. The part that bugs me though is the consistency aspect between all the various Sorcs we have. I think its fine Aspiring Sorcs don't get a familiar, but if the regular Sorcs can why not the Exalted? At the very least give the Exalted Sorcs the same rule built in or something to differentiate them from regular Sorcs.
Or maybe you don't need buffs on a letter bomb, because just like tzaangors they're a suicide unit, and to actually lose enough models to overwatch to lose their 2+ to hit, they need to charge 90 lasguns alone, which you should probably avoid.
Math for people who are being at all honest:
30 unbuffed letters vs tzaangors.
61 attacks, 50.8 hits, 33.8 wounds, 22.5 dead. 4 letters die to return attacks.
30 unbuffed tzaangors vs letters
61 attacks, 40.6 hits, 27 wounds, 18 dead. 7 tzaangors die to return attacks.
Now we wait for TSS to explain
A) why two deep striking melee units would be fighting each other
B) why it's honest to set up a scenario where the extra -2AP and extra damage from the letters weapons doesn't actually factor
C) why he still lied about the results while trying to make it seem like he had done the math.
Then we can start digging into why your style of argumentation is fundamentally dishonest.
Which would have been obvious if you had read the post, or at least the part just before the math where I talk about how Tzaangors are way more durable when buffed with GoT and WoF, and it's not that we can't cast 2 or 3 spells. It's that we should be casting 8-9 spells a turn and most of them are 7+ THAT is what we can't do, at least not unless we spend 700+ points on casters, but then what I said was AS are not going to be able to cast these spells reliably, and its the only discipline they have access too.
LOL, no, you were not very clear about your assumptions, because it is massively fething disingenuous to make an "apples to apples" comparison where one side has hundreds more of points in support and the other does not - especially when factoring in spells you are not guaranteed to cast - and maintain it over MULTIPLE turns.
It's a hole so big I could drive a bloodthirster through it. Literally.
Okay what bonus' do bloodletters get for durability maybe I'm missing something. GoT is WC 7 WoF is WC 6. A Termie Sorc Warlord with the proper trait and a familiar can cast both those spells on a 5 which is an 83.3 % cast rate for both spells. When you say not casting your talking about edge cases which wont usually happen.
Not to mention support for the bloodletters at minimum need a DP which is 156 points of support, and if you don't want to risk losing the +1 to hit you have to overwatch you need a Skulltaker as well pushing the total up to 240 points, so its not like they are getting no support. Problem for bloodletters is they have, to my knowledge nothing which buffs thier durability, which is way more effective.
Are you ever going to try and refute anything that I say or are you going to just take cheap shots at me?
I used to, but you either ignored the posts, made some strange counter-argument or outright lied to prove a point.
After that I can't be bothered, you're what one would call a "lost cause". I can't stop you from hating the codex but it's getting tedious to read after a while.
Fair enough. Although it's also possible, i simply didn't see your posts.
Because dropping your warlord in with a suicide unit is apparently not an edge case, and one or both of those spells will still fail in 1/3 of your games. Not to mention you only get one use of each of those spells and presumably unless this is a Patrol Detachment you're playing in a 500pt tournament you have 3/4 of your army still to support.
the_scotsman wrote: Or maybe you don't need buffs on a letter bomb, because just like tzaangors they're a suicide unit, and to actually lose enough models to overwatch to lose their 2+ to hit, they need to charge 90 lasguns alone, which you should probably avoid.
Math for people who are being at all honest:
30 unbuffed letters vs tzaangors.
61 attacks, 50.8 hits, 33.8 wounds, 22.5 dead. 4 letters die to return attacks.
30 unbuffed tzaangors vs letters
61 attacks, 40.6 hits, 27 wounds, 18 dead. 7 tzaangors die to return attacks.
Now we wait for TSS to explain
A) why two deep striking melee units would be fighting each other
B) why it's honest to set up a scenario where the extra -2AP and extra damage from the letters weapons doesn't actually factor
C) why he still lied about the results while trying to make it seem like he had done the math.
Because dropping your warlord in with a suicide unit is apparently not an edge case, and one or both of those spells will still fail in 1/3 of your games. Not to mention you only get one use of each of those spells and presumably unless this is a Patrol Detachment you're playing in a 500pt tournament you have 3/4 of your army still to support.
*Sigh*
A.) It was just and Example to show how much more durable Tzaangors can be.
B.) Because I already said they are better in the multi damage area, " 'Letters will kill multi wound units better," why would I factor that in when I said it was better? There is no argument to have there.
C.) Okay so I see what happened I forgot to put in the part about WoF and GoT at the end of my post, at least I think that's what you're referring to, that's my fault, sorry about that. At the same time rather than calling me a liar next time, please point that out to me.
It's not a suicide unit if you cast GoT and WoF on them. You can use whatever you want to clear out most if their infantry on turn 1 Flamers Rubrics what have you, then drop the Tzaangors in turn 2 and let them wreak havoc, then on turn 3 do it again.
the_scotsman wrote: Or maybe you don't need buffs on a letter bomb, because just like tzaangors they're a suicide unit, and to actually lose enough models to overwatch to lose their 2+ to hit, they need to charge 90 lasguns alone, which you should probably avoid.
Math for people who are being at all honest:
30 unbuffed letters vs tzaangors.
61 attacks, 50.8 hits, 33.8 wounds, 22.5 dead. 4 letters die to return attacks.
30 unbuffed tzaangors vs letters
61 attacks, 40.6 hits, 27 wounds, 18 dead. 7 tzaangors die to return attacks.
Now we wait for TSS to explain
A) why two deep striking melee units would be fighting each other
B) why it's honest to set up a scenario where the extra -2AP and extra damage from the letters weapons doesn't actually factor
C) why he still lied about the results while trying to make it seem like he had done the math.
Because dropping your warlord in with a suicide unit is apparently not an edge case, and one or both of those spells will still fail in 1/3 of your games. Not to mention you only get one use of each of those spells and presumably unless this is a Patrol Detachment you're playing in a 500pt tournament you have 3/4 of your army still to support.
*Sigh*
A.) It was just and Example to show how much more durable Tzaangors can be.
B.) Because I already said they are better in the multi damage area, " 'Letters will kill multi wound units better," why would I factor that in when I said it was better? There is no argument to have there.
C.) Okay so I see what happened I forgot to put in the part about WoF and GoT at the end of my post, at least I think that's what you're referring to, that's my fault, sorry about that. At the same time rather than calling me a liar next time, please point that out to me.
It's not a suicide unit if you cast GoT and WoF on them. You can use whatever you want to clear out most if their infantry on turn 1 Flamers Rubrics what have you, then drop the Tzaangors in turn 2 and let them wreak havoc, then on turn 3 do it again.
"Even when not fully buffed Letters have a durability disadvantage which puts them at a huge disadvantage. Even in a situation where the letters get the charge off and get to swing first they are only going to kill 1/2 the Tzaangor unit and the Tzaangor unit will kill half the Letters in return, Tzaangors get the charge off and Letters lose 25 models and the remaining 5 Bloodletters kill 5 Tzaangors. The difference is "
So this is the post I'm referring to here.
You're saying that in the sentence which you started with "even when not fully buffed" you forgot to include the fact that you were still considering the Tzaangors to be buffed with two defensive spells.
And, apparently, you also forgot to mention that you've got them buffed with a couple offensive spells/auras as well, because in order for half a unit of tzaangors to swing back and kill half the bloodletters in turn, they need to be hitting on re-rollable 2s. (33 attacks, 32 hits, 21.3 wounds, 14.25 wounds which we round up to 15.)
At this point, the nitty-gritty of the comparison doesn't even matter, man. it's just tough to take any argument seriously if its components are not presented honestly. it's like entering into a discussion about whether space marines are in a good spot right now, and setting it up by saying "Well, a squad of tactical marines within 12" kills 11 guardsmen per turn, marines are fine!" and not mentioning that of course you're always going to have tactical marines within range of Guilliman, why wouldn't you?
I'm not saying Tzaangors aren't good, or able to be buffed, or able to be a lynchpin of an army, they're all those things. They're a solid unit and if you're trying to make a thousand sons list it's going to be tough to say you don't want a unit of 30. But you've really got to stretch logic past its breaking point to pretend they're some kind of magic super crazy op thing. Same with shaman, same with englightened. You want this codex to be all about these new units because you concluded that it would be the second they were announced as being in the book, and its all backed up by an evil conspiracy by GW to shove new models down your throat because apparently they have to sideline the brand new thousand sons range that came out a year or two ago. I'm just not seeing it. Are they also trying to push the editions-old Daemon Prince kit? Do they really want to make everyone convert a Terminator Sorceror? Or is it just a codex with the normal GW spaghetti-at-the-wall style balance we've seen pretty much every edition of 40k?
the_scotsman wrote: "Even when not fully buffed Letters have a durability disadvantage which puts them at a huge disadvantage. Even in a situation where the letters get the charge off and get to swing first they are only going to kill 1/2 the Tzaangor unit and the Tzaangor unit will kill half the Letters in return, Tzaangors get the charge off and Letters lose 25 models and the remaining 5 Bloodletters kill 5 Tzaangors."
So this is the post I'm referring to here.
You're saying that in the sentence which you started with "even when not fully buffed" you forgot to include the fact that you were still considering the Tzaangors to be buffed with two defensive spells.
When I say not fully buffed I mean even if you only have one buff on them. Which puts them at double the durability I believe.
With 1 buff on Tzaangors (WoF) for bloodletter attacking
61×.825×.66×.5 =16.6 Tzaangors killed, they kill 9.72 letters in return with only reroll 1s aura which is on most of our HQs
With 2 buffs GoT and WoF for Tzaangors and rerolling 1s for Bloodletters you get
61×.77×.66×.5= 15.5 Tzaangors killed, they kill 10. Again with only a reroll 1s aura
There is is little difference between the two.
the_scotsman wrote: And, apparently, you also forgot to mention that you've got them buffed with a couple offensive spells/auras as well, because in order for half a unit of tzaangors to swing back and kill half the bloodletters in turn, they need to be hitting on re-rollable 2s. (33 attacks, 32 hits, 21.3 wounds, 14.25 wounds which we round up to 15.)
I shouldn't have wrote half. Meant 1/3 not even sure why I wrote half.
the_scotsman wrote: At this point, the nitty-gritty of the comparison doesn't even matter, man. it's just tough to take any argument seriously if its components are not presented honestly. it's like entering into a discussion about whether space marines are in a good spot right now, and setting it up by saying "Well, a squad of tactical marines within 12" kills 11 guardsmen per turn, marines are fine!" and not mentioning that of course you're always going to have tactical marines within range of Guilliman, why wouldn't you?
It's not the same because G-man can only be taken once, and you have tons of options besides him. TS don't we have 2 auras, and Reroll 1s to hit is almost unavoidable in our army.
the_scotsman wrote: I'm not saying Tzaangors aren't good, or able to be buffed, or able to be a lynchpin of an army, they're all those things. They're a solid unit and if you're trying to make a thousand sons list it's going to be tough to say you don't want a unit of 30. But you've really got to stretch logic past its breaking point to pretend they're some kind of magic super crazy op thing. Same with shaman, same with englightened.
Bloodletters problem is they are super killy and can only become more killy, but you only need so much to kill a Guardsman. Letters are amazing at killing multi-wound models even if they have a good arnor save.
Tzaangors on the other hand can be almost as killy with a little support, and be much more durable, with the very same units that provide the auras which make them more killy. Which means they get another turn of attacking things.
the_scotsman wrote: You want this codex to be all about these new units because you concluded that it would be the second they were announced as being in the book, and its all backed up by an evil conspiracy by GW to shove new models down your throat because apparently they have to sideline the brand new thousand sons range that came out a year or two ago.
Actually I don't want to be right about how the codex is structured. I simply am right. Mutalith, Tzaangor Shaman, Exalted Sorcerers, DP, Ahriman, and 1 of Magnus' auras benefit Tzaangors, and in ways they do not benefit Rubricae in our army. Mutalith and Tzaangor Shamans do nothing for Rubicae, but are amazing for Tzaangors in general. Tzaangors get way more out of the reroll 1s aura because when combined with the +1 to hit aura they are now hitting on 2s rerolling, which is extreamly good. No dice have been rolled to achive this, it simply is. DPs got access to Tzeentch Discipline, which we had access to before, none of which help our Rubricae, but those new enlightened sure can benefit from them.
the_scotsman wrote: I'm just not seeing it. Are they also trying to push the editions-old Daemon Prince kit? Do they really want to make everyone convert a Terminator Sorceror? Or is it just a codex with the normal GW spaghetti-at-the-wall style balance we've seen pretty much every edition of 40k?
Except its not spagetti at the wall everything is directed at the Tzaangors, perticularly the new ones. The old ones simply benefit more because of the unit size. There are things with explicit bonus' that only work on Tzaangors. They removed the two things which made Rubrics more viable. 5 man reaper squads and the reroll 1s for invul saves. They did work on the codex it was just all geared towards making Rubricae near useless beyond a single squad.
No they want to sell models, so if you have the option of buying a 10 dollar kit which you can split between 3 people and give 3 of your Exalted Sorcerers a familiar are you going to do that, Or are you going to spend 50 dollars on 2 new Sorcs in Termie armor which you probably didnt have before?
Actually I don't want to be right about how the codex is structured. I simply am right. Mutalith, Tzaangor Shaman, Exalted Sorcerers, DP, Ahriman, and 1 of Magnus' auras benefit Tzaangors, and in ways they do not benefit Rubricae in our army. Mutalith and Tzaangor Shamans do nothing for Rubicae, but are amazing for Tzaangors in general. Tzaangors get way more out of the reroll 1s aura because when combined with the +1 to hit aura they are now hitting on 2s rerolling, which is extreamly good. No dice have been rolled to achive this, it simply is. DPs got access to Tzeentch Discipline, which we had access to before, none of which help our Rubricae, but those new enlightened sure can benefit from them.
You're not right the mutalith affect all Tzeentch units which include our Ruricae. I charge my occult terminators into close combat all the time. I also charge my regulars into close combat all the time too. Not to mention giving a rubric squad +1 str or + 1 ap in CC might be the difference between them killing the unit they are stuck in cc with or having to fall back thus making them useless the next turn. Grant it 8 times out of ten I am probably buffing my pink horrors with it. But that is what tactics are about using your tools to fit the situation.
Our Exalteds' aura of reroll to hits is way better than the reroll invulnerable saves IMO. Magnus's new aura does nothing for the tzaangors that are not psykers so again that affects 2 units of rubrics and 1 unit of tzaangors. The only CP that affects tzaangors specifically is the cycle of slaughter so one. But wait we have 5 stratagems that affect our vehicles and not our rubrics but you are not up in arms about that. However, we have many that affect psykers in our army so our 2 units of rubrics compared to our 1 tzaangor psyker. The Tzeentch disipline affects daemons which out of our codex are Daemon princes, shamans, enlightened, defilers, forgefiend, maulerfiend, heldrake, and Magnus. So hold the phone here you mean a whole two units of tzaangors out of 8 thousand sons specific units clearly gw is pushing the new models onto us.
Listen I get it you are angry that gw didn't make the codex to your specific view of how it is supposed to be. I am disappointed in a couple things as well. But please stop making up bull gak and trying to find things that are not there.
The Salt Mine wrote: You're not right. The mutalith affects all Tzeentch units which include our Ruricae. I charge my occult terminators into close combat all the time. I also charge my regulars into close combat all the time too. Not to mention giving a rubric squad +1 str or + 1 ap in CC might be the difference between them killing the unit they are stuck in cc with or having to fall back thus making them useless the next turn. Granted 8 times out of ten I am probably buffing my pink horrors with it. But that is what tactics are about using your tools to fit the situation.
Okay, I never said it can't affect Rubrics. I said they benefit Tzaangors in ways that Rubrics do not benefit from them. In other words using the Mutalith to buff a 10 man squad of Tzaangors is better than buffing a 20 man squad of Rubrics. Rubrics are either the last or one of the last units you will use that on behind things like Tanks and Transports. Magnus is the only unit that is geared towards the Rubrics and once people figure out how important he is to the Rubrics he will die turn 1, 2 at the latest.
Tactics are "an action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end." Tactics are not what you use, they are what you do. What you use are tools. Rubrics have very few tools in their own army, and most of those are very limited. What your talking about is adapting which you can't really plan to do beyond saying to yourself "I plan to adapt".
The Salt Mine wrote: Our Exalteds' aura of reroll to hits is way better than the reroll invulnerable saves IMO. Magnus's new aura does nothing for the tzaangors that are not psykers so again that affects 2 units of rubrics and 1 unit of tzaangors. The only CP that affects tzaangors specifically is the cycle of slaughter so one. But wait we have 5 stratagems that affect our vehicles and not our rubrics but you are not up in arms about that. However, we have many that affect psykers in our army so our 2 units of rubrics compared to our 1 tzaangor psyker. The Tzeentch discipline affects daemons which out of our codex are Daemon princes, shamans, enlightened, defilers, forgefiend, maulerfiend, heldrake, and Magnus. So hold the phone here you mean a whole two units of tzaangors out of 8 thousand sons specific units clearly gw is pushing the new models onto us.
Lets assume for a moment that the reroll 1s to hit aura is objectively better than the reroll invul saves of 1. The problem is we once had 2 auras available to us, and now we don't, this objectively is a nerf. We had access to something and we lost it. BTW I agree given the option one or the other reroll 1s to hit is better.
Just, because one thing affects some other units doesn't mean they don't have a specific unit in mind. What about Tzaangor Shamans? Which unit gets more out of the rerolls 1s to hit aura Tzaangors or Rubrics? The common thread over all of these units is Tzaangors.
The Salt Mine wrote: Listen I get it you are angry that gw didn't make the codex to your specific view of how it is supposed to be. I am disappointed in a couple things as well. But please stop making up bull gak and trying to find things that are not there.
It has nothing to do with my specific view. Thinking that was going to happen is unreasonable and egotistical at best. It's how lazy this entire codex is. How everything in the book centers around Tzaangors, most of it is copy and paste.
Again no they don't benefit Tzaangors in different ways that Rubrics. They both are getting the same exact buff. Your argument about tactics is literally the exact same thing I said and being able to adapt to the situation at hand is what wins you games. No plan survives first contact with the enemy.
As we have established the rubrics have the same amount of tools as the tzaangors more so if you are counting all the things that affect psychic powers. We had an aura that wasn't great replaced with something that is amazing but it still somehow a nerf just because we don't have access to it anymore. The only thing that aura was good for was magnus.
Just, because one thing affects some other units doesn't mean they don't have a specific unit in mind
Congrats that is literally the same argument everyone else has been making against you but I guess its only relevant when you want to use it? BTW I think it effects rubrics more since you know they are shooting and shooting is by nature more flexible than cc and there is two shooting rubric units and only 1 shooting tzaangor unit. And the reroll ones on psychic tests definitely affects rubrics more than shamans considering shamans have an inbuilt reroll mechanic already and I would rather avoid perils with rubrics than the shaman any day of the week.
Your entire argument has to do with your specific view. You keep saying this codex focuses on nothing but tzaangors which time and time again people have called you out on and proven false. This codex wasn't any more of a copy paste job than any other codex so far. We were always going to share things with the other Chaos space marine chapters. The Death guard codex came with most of the daemons of Nurgle entries as well and had most of the same stratagems as the CSM codex as well. Almost every loyal sm chapter codex so far shares stuff with the first codex SM but I guess they are all copy paste too? But that's fine we can ignore all the stuff they did change specifically for our codex because I guess it works with your argument right?
The Salt Mine wrote: Again no they don't benefit Tzaangors in different ways that Rubrics.
I believe the point he's attempting to make (and not expressing clearly), is that the 3 buffs that the Mutalith provides are of very limited usefulness to Rubric units. Specifically, +1 Strength, re-roll charges, and -1 AP to melee weapons. I don't think there's an argument to be made here that these buffs are somehow good for Rubric units, at best these buffs would be used on Rubrics because you have no place else to use them. But yes, technically they benefit Rubrics the same way they do Tzaangors.
Anyhow, this thread has clearly gone off the rails at this point. Good luck folks, it was interesting to get a lot of opinions, there's some good stuff in the codex, but not enough to justify including a detachment over one of the existing CSM legions.
I still think it's a lazy, unimaginative codex that provides the bare minimum required to put an army on the table. It's got the psychic dominance angle locked down, but there just isn't enough there to really build around it I think.
Zodd1888 wrote: Side note: Lost aura, not gained. Can't gain what was already had (Daemon Prince). More of the same is still having the same.
Unless you didn't previously take a daemon prince to hang out next to your gunline (which I didn't, he always had wings and if he was benefiting anyone besides himself with his aura, it was my Tzaangors as they would be up front in melee.)
If you didn't, and instead you had Ahriman/An Exalted Sorc sitting in your backline, you did actually end up with a much better aura for your rubrics than the only occasionally useful reroll invlun aura.
It's a bit like if the Imperial Guard company commander got a "reroll 1s to hit" aura. Sure, you could argue that they had access to Yarrick before, but Yarrick is only one character, and he pays for a lot of extra stuff (the now-nerfed commissar aura, extra defenses and melee stats). It'd be tough to argue that its inclusion would not be a buff to the army as a whole.
In actual fact, we lost access to the reroll 1s invuln aura (which was really most useful on Magnus and Tzaangors, since Rubrics would only benefit from it at all against AP-2 or better weaponry) and gained access to an aura useful to our shooting units...on models we actually want back with those shooting units. it's pretty interesting to see this change spun as some kind of Tzaangors Only benefit, when Tzaangors kept the character most likely to be giving them that buff (DP) and lost the other aura which they'd often get from Disc Ahriman or Magnus in the index.
Also, FWIW, I didn't run out and buy my Terminator Sorceror. I had an Assassinorum board game set that I'd mostly forgotten about except for painting the assassins, which included that kit. A few spare bits from Scarabs and Kairic Acolytes and I had a sorceror with staff, familiar, and inferno bolter.
Also, FWIW, I didn't run out and buy my Terminator Sorceror. I had an Assassinorum board game set that I'd mostly forgotten about except for painting the assassins, which included that kit. A few spare bits from Scarabs and Kairic Acolytes and I had a sorceror with staff, familiar, and inferno bolter.
Zodd1888 wrote: Side note: Lost aura, not gained. Can't gain what was already had (Daemon Prince). More of the same is still having the same.
Unless you didn't previously take a daemon prince to hang out next to your gunline (which I didn't, he always had wings and if he was benefiting anyone besides himself with his aura, it was my Tzaangors as they would be up front in melee.)
If you didn't, and instead you had Ahriman/An Exalted Sorc sitting in your backline, you did actually end up with a much better aura for your rubrics than the only occasionally useful reroll invlun aura.
It's a bit like if the Imperial Guard company commander got a "reroll 1s to hit" aura. Sure, you could argue that they had access to Yarrick before, but Yarrick is only one character, and he pays for a lot of extra stuff (the now-nerfed commissar aura, extra defenses and melee stats). It'd be tough to argue that its inclusion would not be a buff to the army as a whole.
In actual fact, we lost access to the reroll 1s invuln aura (which was really most useful on Magnus and Tzaangors, since Rubrics would only benefit from it at all against AP-2 or better weaponry) and gained access to an aura useful to our shooting units...on models we actually want back with those shooting units. it's pretty interesting to see this change spun as some kind of Tzaangors Only benefit, when Tzaangors kept the character most likely to be giving them that buff (DP) and lost the other aura which they'd often get from Disc Ahriman or Magnus in the index.
Also, FWIW, I didn't run out and buy my Terminator Sorceror. I had an Assassinorum board game set that I'd mostly forgotten about except for painting the assassins, which included that kit. A few spare bits from Scarabs and Kairic Acolytes and I had a sorceror with staff, familiar, and inferno bolter.
Turned out nice!
Did you use the Kairic bird as a familiar? If so, that is a great idea. My plan is to use Kairic acolytes with the Tzaangor sword-and-pistol sprue as CC cultists. The bird and shields (and that goofy scroll) will be left over. Using it as a familiar is brilliant.
Space Marine playerbase demand squeezing rules out of forgeworld holds no bearing on the odds that any non-marine models will get any kind of rules out of forgeworld.
*blows dust off of 2500 point, 700+ dollar Mechanicum collection and 30 Secutarii Hoplites*
Space Marine playerbase demand squeezing rules out of forgeworld holds no bearing on the odds that any non-marine models will get any kind of rules out of forgeworld.
*blows dust off of 2500 point, 700+ dollar Mechanicum collection and 30 Secutarii Hoplites*
So you think that they listen only to SM demands?
If you were asked yesterday if you thought FW would port over 30K models without GW co-opting it in plastic would you have said that it's possible?
Space Marine playerbase demand squeezing rules out of forgeworld holds no bearing on the odds that any non-marine models will get any kind of rules out of forgeworld.
*blows dust off of 2500 point, 700+ dollar Mechanicum collection and 30 Secutarii Hoplites*
So you think that they listen only to SM demands?
If you were asked yesterday if you thought FW would port over 30K models without GW co-opting it in plastic would you have said that it's possible?
The odds are no longer zero.
Given that most forgeworld stuff for Marines has 40k equivalents, yeah. The vast majority of the kits they release do have rules. Just the vehicles mind you - which is exactly what custodes got here.
Provided you are a marine anyway. If you're not you might just have models sitting around for months with no rules in either system.
Power-wise it should easily belong in the upper half/third of the armies released so far.
for 
