vaklor4 wrote: He may not be a cheater, but he is kind of a doofus for trying to argue his point in a highly condesending manner to authority figures
I can argue my police tickets if i think i was wrongfully accused, how is this any different?
A person has the write (or should and if they dont then i'm 100% boycotting that event) to defend themselves, especially in this type of environment with ambiguities.
Edit: I not for or against him, i'm just showing the TO's were completely unprofessional and he shouldnt be banned in doing so, there was huge amounts of disrepect for the players (not just him) and how they informed him (Publicly 1st) .
My call is that this game kind of sucks for competitive play. It’s way too complicated, no official markers, wound tokens, tracking just about anything is cumbersome, games take an age to play, so many fracking dice are rolled, not even the most dedicated players can keep up with the hundreds of special rules, inevitable mistakes, a serious and obvious lack of integrity and sportsmanship at high level events, blah blah blah. These people I keep watching in these streams seem to be having zero fun whatsoever.
I get that he cheated and that needs to be dealt with but I would find it alot more reasonable if they weren't making rules mistakes in their own statements on how he should have played.
They claim he cheated by using his 4 hammerheads during for the greater good.
His list is 3 hammerheads and longstrike.
Longstrike does have the FTGG rule and it applies to all weapons not just SMS like they claim.
The 3 hammer heads do not have FTGG at all and it applies to no weapons.
I would have supported their decision if they hadn't deleted his response. But the fact that they removed his reply (that imo seemed relevant, for example, him bumping the riptide about a centimeter that couldnt have really affected the outcome of the game at all and looked like an accident) makes me side with him a bit more. IMO this is a last-ditch effort to make people forget the terrible press the tournament is getting.I can't imagine anyone that's not a local player in London traveling for that type of a mess of a tournament. If i had spent money on plane tickets i would have lost my
For those who are behind a corp firewall or just don't like reddit:
Spoiler:
Text copied from their Facebook post:
LGT 2018 Invitational Final between Alex Harrison and Geoff Robinson
On Saturday, 19.05.2018 and Sunday, 20.05.2018, the LGT 40k Invitational Final took place between Alex Harrison and Geoff Robinson. It was a tense affair. It was late in the evening, both players were tired and had just played each other in the 40kGT just before and it was the final of a major competition, aired across the world on live stream. Also, because of the closing time of the venue, the players had to be hurried, which only added to the pressure. Accordingly, they both made honest mistakes that were retrospectively corrected, and we let them finish the final the following day so that they had enough time.
However, upon reviewing the recorded footage of the game, we have reached the conclusion that Alex did not just make honest mistakes; he appears to have engaged in player misconduct at various points during the game. (Please see examples below)
The LGT takes a zero-tolerance approach to this and has decided to ban Alex from future LGT events,]..
We would like to take this opportunity to apologise to Geoff Robinson, who ultimately won the Invitational Final, and to all the viewers that tuned in. This type of behaviour cannot and will not be tolerated at the LGT.
3.) Lying to trade out objective cards - 32:41 draws objective cards 45:20 doesn't discard or declare the intention to discard objectives: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/263408718?t=00h45m16s 51:40 he lies and said he did discard one and said he would discard one: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/263408718?t=00h51m26s - Geoff calls him out on it but then lets him cheat anyway/gives him the benefit of the doubt.
4.) Implying models are within a certain range, getting called out, measuring it incorrectly, and getting called out on that: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/263217667?t=00h24m27s Cheater was so bold as to say "I pre-measured it so if it is stightly out I'll just nudge my model forward." Geoff didn't let it slide since the model was a full ~2" out of range.
5.) The biggest was very possibly unintentional, but Alex mis-represented the "For the Greater Good" overwatch rules and used it on not just his 4 HH's SMS, but the tanks as well (very end of part 1 video). This was caught by the judges overnight and corrected, thank goodness as it made a huge difference. Alex likely mis-used this rule to his benefit in his previous 6 games in the tournament.
6.) I can't tell if a 3 or 5 was actually rolled due to lighting, but the dice was likely obstructed from Geoff's point of view and Alex said it was a 5, Geoff said no, it was a 3, and asked him to reroll it: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/263408718?t=00h12m21s
Apologies that this needed to be made public, but for the good of this new community we are trying to create, I think it is worth making this post.
So, let’s start with the event:
3 Games Friday, 4 games Saturday, 2.5 games Sunday. Yes I ended up playing pretty much all weekend. I didn’t have hardly any time to get any food or drink (que for the food was jokes, let alone the costs or the food itself).
After making it to the Invitational final, I was informed that is will be held on Saturday evening at 8pm, ok fine that will be a late one but acceptable. However, in the morning we can’t even get into the venue. This pushes back timings by about an hour and a half. Luckily I finished my previous game early, so when I went to play the invitational game I was told we would have about an hour and a half.
Onto the game itself. Now I had just played Geoff, it was a chilled out game and tight game. The invitational game felt a bit more tense and we were both tired and stressed. Both of us made mistakes which we each rectified between ourselves. However, as the game was streamed, there are the backseat generals who need to have their say. Lets look at the footage and answer the accusations.
So that was me. Out of the entire footage, it has been picked apart minute by minute to see if I made any mistakes. This stinks of someone out there trying to find a way to smear me but ok. If someone were to do this to my opponent, I’d feel terrible for them. Geoff was a great guy and a pleasure to play against, even if it was a little salty the night before, I understand we were both tired and stressed. He attempted to re-roll using his relic twice, he messed up his re-draw of his cards, he tried using his custodies stratagem to draw a new card from a card he had drawn a turn previously, moved some models too far etc. but you know what? I know none of it was intentional because mistakes…happen. I would never call him up for it because we are all privy to it. We forget things, we mess things up. But none of it constitutes cheating. If there was any player that can safely say they have never done the above accidently then ill eat my hat. But because It is the top table, lots of people sat at home with 10 hours sleep and a full belly, they can spot all the “mistakes” and assume its cheating. Sad to see the event organisers point their pinky at me publicly without discussing it first. If anyone genuinely believes that I wanted to cheat my way to beating Geoff infront of hundreds and intentionaly steal the game then please have a good think about it. Why on earth would I try that when it’s recorded. Having been nailed to the cross before, I really don’t think I’d be clever to cheat on live TV. But hey, if it makes you sleep at night then fair enough. Wish the event would consider its own faults before throwing me under the car.
Now let's all review EVERY streamed game and ban others shall we ?
Half of it seems like nitpicking, but some seems sketchy. I'll review the footage before I make a big opinion.
Seems pretty trivial for a lifetime ban. He didn’t appear to do anything other than play a little sloppy. Sure, I’d call him out on each point, too, just what what happened. But 40k isn’t a sport, players aren’t athletes, and that venue was not conducive to a good experience of gaming. Seems like overkill for something minor.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Seems pretty trivial for a lifetime ban. He didn’t appear to do anything other than play a little sloppy. Sure, I’d call him out on each point, too, just what what happened. But 40k isn’t a sport, players aren’t athletes, and that venue was not conducive to a good experience of gaming. Seems like overkill for something minor.
SJ
The punishment might actually be saving him a lot of future frustration. I'm not sure who would ever want to go to a tournament run like that again, a lifetime ban seems like a nice excuse when someone is trying to convince you to go because they don't remember how awful it was the previous year.
Yeah cheating is bad but deleting responses, bans, tiredness mistakes. Yeah models get bumped, dice can get knocked. Mistakes do happen, they can also be attempts to cheat. But at times it's just word vs word.
vaklor4 wrote: He may not be a cheater, but he is kind of a doofus for trying to argue his point in a highly condesending manner to authority figures
I can argue my police tickets if i think i was wrongfully accused, how is this any different?
A person has the write (or should and if they dont then i'm 100% boycotting that event) to defend themselves, especially in this type of environment with ambiguities.
Edit: I not for or against him, i'm just showing the TO's were completely unprofessional and he shouldnt be banned in doing so, there was huge amounts of disrepect for the players (not just him) and how they informed him (Publicly 1st) .
If I call the judge a loser I can expect to be held in contempt of court....
I don't care either way. What I do think is that it's a direct result of the LGTs poor planning and organization combined with trying to play a non-competitive game competitively. If the player in question wasn't rushed and had had a proper nights sleep (don't think we don't know how much drinking gets done after these events) there would be less chance of his actions being able to be blamed on being tired.
I feel like banned for life is a massive over reaction. When a player was caught cheating in the Warmachine WTC a few years back they were only banned from the following years tournament. I guess the LGT committee are worried about losing GWs support so they took and overly hard stance on the issue.
However I do hope it serves as a lesson to others that clean play and good sportsmanship are much better to practice than dodgy measurements and wound tracker fiddling.
Yeah cheating is bad but deleting responses, bans, tiredness mistakes. Yeah models get bumped, dice can get knocked. Mistakes do happen, they can also be attempts to cheat. But at times it's just word vs word.
Its all just a storm in a tea cup.
Well from the pictures the tables had about a foot of clearance from other tables/walls/players so I'm not surprised if people were bumping terrain and models all weekend on accident and it seemed like all the games were very rushed because of all the delays and confusion.
vaklor4 wrote: He may not be a cheater, but he is kind of a doofus for trying to argue his point in a highly condesending manner to authority figures
I can argue my police tickets if i think i was wrongfully accused, how is this any different?
A person has the write (or should and if they dont then i'm 100% boycotting that event) to defend themselves, especially in this type of environment with ambiguities.
Edit: I not for or against him, i'm just showing the TO's were completely unprofessional and he shouldnt be banned in doing so, there was huge amounts of disrepect for the players (not just him) and how they informed him (Publicly 1st) .
If I call the judge a loser I can expect to be held in contempt of court....
I didnt see him say Loser at all, i came in late tho with his "Proper response" so did he say it int he deleted post? Maybe he deleted b.c he was typing out of anger and then rewrote it?
PS: I read it on facebook with his actual post not reddit.
vaklor4 wrote: He may not be a cheater, but he is kind of a doofus for trying to argue his point in a highly condesending manner to authority figures
I can argue my police tickets if i think i was wrongfully accused, how is this any different?
A person has the write (or should and if they dont then i'm 100% boycotting that event) to defend themselves, especially in this type of environment with ambiguities.
Edit: I not for or against him, i'm just showing the TO's were completely unprofessional and he shouldnt be banned in doing so, there was huge amounts of disrepect for the players (not just him) and how they informed him (Publicly 1st) .
You have every right as a human to defend yourself. But don't expect to be greeted warmly when you use rude language and generally act unprofessional. It wasn't right for them to delete his post, but he post was anything but friendly, or even just respectful. And it was the TO, not himself that deleted it from my understanding.
And I also have to agree with Sim-life. The guy admitted to basically getting no sleep what so ever because he decided to go a little too hard. That's not an excuse when getting pulled over while driving, it's not an excuse at the work place, it's not an excuse during a school test, it's basically not an excuse anywhere. You're a grown man, drown yourself in coffee or energy drinks, or just don't attend. If you're in no shape to compete, then take that L.
Sim-Life wrote: I don't care either way. What I do think is that it's a direct result of the LGTs poor planning and organization combined with trying to play a non-competitive game competitively. If the player in question wasn't rushed and had had a proper nights sleep (don't think we don't know how much drinking gets done after these events) there would be less chance of his actions being able to be blamed on being tired.
I feel like banned for life is a massive over reaction. When a player was caught cheating in the Warmachine WTC a few years back they were only banned from the following years tournament. I guess the LGT committee are worried about losing GWs support so they took and overly hard stance on the issue.
However I do hope it serves as a lesson to others that clean play and good sportsmanship are much better to practice than dodgy measurements and wound tracker fiddling.
Are you really suggesting that choosing to go out drinking in between events at a major international competitive event excuses you from the consequences of your resulting sloppy play?
Sim-Life wrote: I don't care either way. What I do think is that it's a direct result of the LGTs poor planning and organization combined with trying to play a non-competitive game competitively. If the player in question wasn't rushed and had had a proper nights sleep (don't think we don't know how much drinking gets done after these events) there would be less chance of his actions being able to be blamed on being tired.
I feel like banned for life is a massive over reaction. When a player was caught cheating in the Warmachine WTC a few years back they were only banned from the following years tournament. I guess the LGT committee are worried about losing GWs support so they took and overly hard stance on the issue.
However I do hope it serves as a lesson to others that clean play and good sportsmanship are much better to practice than dodgy measurements and wound tracker fiddling.
Are you really suggesting that choosing to go out drinking in between events at a major international competitive event excuses you from the consequences of your resulting sloppy play?
No? I'm saying exactly the opposite of that. The player himself is saying that. He's claiming he only had 3 hours of sleep which I can only imagine is because he got drunk after the venue closed which isn't uncommon for players at big tournaments.
Sim-Life wrote: I don't care either way. What I do think is that it's a direct result of the LGTs poor planning and organization combined with trying to play a non-competitive game competitively. If the player in question wasn't rushed and had had a proper nights sleep (don't think we don't know how much drinking gets done after these events) there would be less chance of his actions being able to be blamed on being tired.
I feel like banned for life is a massive over reaction. When a player was caught cheating in the Warmachine WTC a few years back they were only banned from the following years tournament. I guess the LGT committee are worried about losing GWs support so they took and overly hard stance on the issue.
However I do hope it serves as a lesson to others that clean play and good sportsmanship are much better to practice than dodgy measurements and wound tracker fiddling.
Are you really suggesting that choosing to go out drinking in between events at a major international competitive event excuses you from the consequences of your resulting sloppy play?
I think thats just a side point of his. From the photos and reviews I've read
1. games started late because of poor organization so game length was cut down (causing you to rush)
2. Tables were poorly marked or not marked at all causing delays and more rushed games
3. There was one overpriced food stand with 2 employees for 400+ people so many people didn't get to eat the whole day as they confiscated food brought into the even and there was no time with previous mentioned delays
4. Tables had almost no space between them and no seats so people were on their feet all day despite all the previous issues
Im sure every game at the end of this show was sloppy and filled with mistakes
vaklor4 wrote: He may not be a cheater, but he is kind of a doofus for trying to argue his point in a highly condesending manner to authority figures
I can argue my police tickets if i think i was wrongfully accused, how is this any different?
A person has the write (or should and if they dont then i'm 100% boycotting that event) to defend themselves, especially in this type of environment with ambiguities.
Edit: I not for or against him, i'm just showing the TO's were completely unprofessional and he shouldnt be banned in doing so, there was huge amounts of disrepect for the players (not just him) and how they informed him (Publicly 1st) .
You have every right as a human to defend yourself. But don't expect to be greeted warmly when you use rude language and generally act unprofessional. It wasn't right for them to delete his post, but he post was anything but friendly, or even just respectful. And it was the TO, not himself that deleted it from my understanding.
And I also have to agree with Sim-life. The guy admitted to basically getting no sleep what so ever because he decided to go a little too hard. That's not an excuse when getting pulled over while driving, it's not an excuse at the work place, it's not an excuse during a school test, it's basically not an excuse anywhere. You're a grown man, drown yourself in coffee or energy drinks, or just don't attend. If you're in no shape to compete, then take that L.
You didnt get what i said, i said i didnt see him say anything bad and asked you if the deleted post was bad. B.c the post i read was professional, you can tell he is mad but nothing that i wouldnt say or even to a judge.
This is the response that i read
Spoiler:
Proper reply (big post)
Apologies that this needed to be made public, but for the good of this new community we are trying to create, I think it is worth making this post.
So, let’s start with the event:
3 Games Friday, 4 games Saturday, 2.5 games Sunday. Yes I ended up playing pretty much all weekend. I didn’t have hardly any time to get any food or drink (que for the food was jokes, let alone the costs or the food itself).
After making it to the Invitational final, I was informed that is will be held on Saturday evening at 8pm, ok fine that will be a late one but acceptable. However, in the morning we can’t even get into the venue. This pushes back timings by about an hour and a half. Luckily I finished my previous game early, so when I went to play the invitational game I was told we would have about an hour and a half.
Onto the game itself. Now I had just played Geoff, it was a chilled out game and tight game. The invitational game felt a bit more tense and we were both tired and stressed. Both of us made mistakes which we each rectified between ourselves. However, as the game was streamed, there are the backseat generals who need to have their say. Lets look at the footage and answer the accusations.
1) I apparently knock my Hammerhead forwards slightly with my water cup. So, IF this was intentional (which it was not) what has this gained me? I have nothing INFRONT to overwatch? We learned that the Hammerhead can’t overwatch (more on that later) so what does this gain me? His shield captain flew to the left right next to the hammerhead, so what am I cheating here? It baffles me that this is a thing, models get knocked throughout the event but you gotta watch out for those water cups, they are dangerous!
2) Wound counter. I clearly pick up the dice of the wound counter (unintentional), and notice it missing later on. I assumed he had 3 wounds, but in fact it was 5. We resolve it and move on. But this is classed as cheating? I can see why people think that I have intentionally “attempted” to gain an advantage, so fair point. However, I had killed the captain 3 times previous and I assumed he had less wounds than he had. Mix this with 4 hours sleep and a tense game, I made a booboo. Did it effect the game? No because it was pointed out and I apologised and moved on.
3) “Lieng” to draw cards. Now Geoff forgot to draw cards in our previous game. I reminded him numerous times and when he forgot to discard I said its cool just do it. This is called a gentleman’s agreement. I may have forgotten to declare but the intention was there. I was fethed. I could barely stand and yet this is cheating, really? How many times has a player forgotten to discard a card then ask if its ok to go back or said the intention was to obviously discard the card? It’s a gentleman’s agreement as I said. Geoff was kind enough to continue with this, as it really isn’t a big deal. Im allowed to discard and re-draw, ok it wasn’t exactly the right moment, but this doesn’t constitute cheating. I was tired, I forgot and I was stressed. I didn’t have any breakfast, so I made a blunder which had 0 impact on the game.
4) This one is actually weird. I pre-measured something, from my angle its in (I don’t lean in as I really am tired at this point), assume im in, he checks it, im out. Ok cool, no big deal. Move on. I think this happens in every game of 40k anyone has played?
5) The Hammerheads was on me. I played them wrong, which we went back and re-did. I had no idea they didn’t have FTGG, the drones do instead which wasn’t clear when we checked during the game. We both looked at the rule when it was brought up and didn’t notice. I was approached by almost every Tau player at the event and even they had no idea. Genuine mistake which we went back on.
6) Dice…now this one actually makes me laugh. The dice in question has a marble effect. I did not “Quickly” pick the dice up, it was there and Geoff stood staring at them, I went to pick it up whilst looking at him and said 2 hits. He then said no it’s a 3, I was a bit baffled as it was clear to me it was a 5 so showed him. The dice was white splatter on a red dice with white pips so I can see why Geoff may have assumed it was a 3. He says it wss definitely a 3 so I said ok and I re-rolled it. Literally no effect on the game. If I was trying to cheat, why on EARTH would I be trying to gain a marker token (my last marker token) to get a 2nd hit? You do realise the 2nd hit effects only seeker missiles, which I have none of? I have no idea why on earth I would need to gain such a useless advantage. Did that effect the game? Nope.
So that was me. Out of the entire footage, it has been picked apart minute by minute to see if I made any mistakes. This stinks of someone out there trying to find a way to smear me but ok. If someone were to do this to my opponent, I’d feel terrible for them. Geoff was a great guy and a pleasure to play against, even if it was a little salty the night before, I understand we were both tired and stressed. He attempted to re-roll using his relic twice, he messed up his re-draw of his cards, he tried using his custodies stratagem to draw a new card from a card he had drawn a turn previously, moved some models too far etc. but you know what? I know none of it was intentional because mistakes…happen. I would never call him up for it because we are all privy to it. We forget things, we mess things up. But none of it constitutes cheating. If there was any player that can safely say they have never done the above accidently then ill eat my hat. But because It is the top table, lots of people sat at home with 10 hours sleep and a full belly, they can spot all the “mistakes” and assume its cheating. Sad to see the event organisers point their pinky at me publicly without discussing it first. If anyone genuinely believes that I wanted to cheat my way to beating Geoff infront of hundreds and intentionaly steal the game then please have a good think about it. Why on earth would I try that when it’s recorded. Having been nailed to the cross before, I really don’t think I’d be clever to cheat on live TV. But hey, if it makes you sleep at night then fair enough. Wish the event would consider its own faults before throwing me under the car.
Now let's all review EVERY streamed game and ban others shall we ?
The thing with the water glass was pretty shocking. Hammerheads are pretty massive and heavy models (almost the size of Land Raiders) and it takes quite some weight and pressure to push them around (when I accidently brush against them with my hand while playing, the only thing that happens is that they start spinning because I didn't glue them on their flying base, their weight keeps the base in place), it's pretty impossible to push them that far in one direction like in the stream without intent.
Also the last thing you do with a massive water mug is get it anywhere near your plastic models with all the flimsy parts that can break, fall over and the resulting risk of liquid getting over them or simply moving by accident. What happens is that his mug is in the way, the other player moves it out of the way. Alex does the thing any sensible player would do, move it over to the other side of the table and put it down where it isn't in the way. However in the last moment he lifts the mug up again, moves it all the way to the other hand across half the table edge and then hits the nose of the Hammerhead with it. Then he puts it somewhere close by at the table edge in fron of him where the mug is much more at risk and in the way than the spot he first wanted to place it. Heck, there is even so much pressure aplplied that you can hear a pretty loud 'clack' sound when he bounces the glass straight against the nose of the tank in the direction he wants to push it, like you would hit a billiard ball when playing snooker.
No idea what his idea was, close the space to prevent the Custodes biker from moving there? Guarantee For the Greater Good overwatch range? But it looks intentional for sure, especially if you replay the scene several times.
And that's before looking at the wound counter and objective card shenigans.
If it was one or two things you could call it accidential, but so many? In my experience players that want to cheat don't do it in a big, instantly game winning fashion (unless you leave the table without supervision, then models, objectives and counters might end up moving around quite a bit), but usually do lots of small things that you might not notice and then try to get away with it (often by then trying to exploit the good will of the other guy when they do get caught and called out), like throwing dice too fast for your opponent to see, accidentially brush against models to move them or knock them over and then moving them slightly more (or up to 2-3") in a more favourable direction, calling out wrong ranges and then arguing that "the models totally were in range before" when you catch them rather than saying "really? 3" too far away? Seems like I screwed up when calculating the range before, nevermind" or changing wound counters slightly, particularly for their own models.
And seriously, claiming that he discarded an objective card only 5 minutes after he drew it and didn't discard any (it's not like that happened after a slow-moving 30 minutes turn) really raises red flags, not to mention that his first response after the ban was to both claim all of those coincidences being either mistakes or accidents, then to proceed to accuse the other player of cheating in pure whataboutism style. That literally screams "That guy" to me.
Mixed view really.
The question comes down to whether its accidental mistakes or wilful attempts to cheat. The accused is right that some of things don't obviously benefit him significantly - but they are looking for a pattern of behaviour. Was he playing in the proper sportsmanlike way or not?
I don't think it can really be argued that a fair amount of micro cheating often occurs in tournaments. There always has been in 40k. "That Guy" will always argue distances, forget rules, or remember them wrong and when called out on it go "oh its just a mistake" etc. I know some people get to tournaments and have 5+ great games with great people - but plenty of us can surely relate to experiencing that. I mean I can relate because I was that guy for a long time before getting over it.
I don't know this guy - but I assume if he is playing Geoff he is moving towards whatever the equivalent is of professional 40k play. This isn't therefore a guy who plays a game once every 3-6 months and can reasonably argue the rules are all a bit hazy.
Look, at such a tounament... why would you cheat? You've gotten further than 99% of the people who play. You are being watched. Why would you get so far, just to become the most reviled and humiliated player on the planet?
Look, at such a tounament... why would you cheat? You've gotten further than 99% of the people who play. You are being watched. Why would you get so far, just to become the most reviled and humiliated player on the planet?
MUST. WIN .TOURNAMENT. Especially if you are in the finale of a grand tournament. Some of the "that guy"s take winning VERY seriously, especially at a high stakes, high prestige event (from a promotion standpoint, rather than what turned out to be rather shoddy execution), especially if it might even get you publicity through GWs own community channels. And it seems likely that he didn't know that the game was being streamed/recorded or forgot it after all the previous matches.
MUST. WIN .TOURNAMENT. Especially if you are in the finale of a grand tournament. Some of the "that guy"s take winning VERY seriously, especially at a high stakes, high prestige event (from a promotion standpoint, rather than what turned out to be rather shoddy execution), especially if it might even get you publicity through GWs own community channels. And it seems likely that he didn't know that the game was being streamed/recorded or forgot it after all the previous matches.
I can't see it worth risking that kind of humiliation. Because if I lose a 'big tournament', oh well- I got to a big tournament and that's more than the overwhelming majority of people playing competitively can ever hope to achieve. If I cheat, I become a scumbag for the rest of my life and I'm little more than a guy who cheated at a game of little plastic soldiers. On camera, like an idiot.
Then again, I'm the sort of guy that believes once you start cheating the game is... not a thing any more. Does that make sense? Sort of like pretending a prostitute is a real girlfriend, I guess. Fake, you know.
MUST. WIN .TOURNAMENT. Especially if you are in the finale of a grand tournament. Some of the "that guy"s take winning VERY seriously, especially at a high stakes, high prestige event (from a promotion standpoint, rather than what turned out to be rather shoddy execution), especially if it might even get you publicity through GWs own community channels. And it seems likely that he didn't know that the game was being streamed/recorded or forgot it after all the previous matches.
I can't see it worth risking that kind of humiliation. Because if I lose a 'big tournament', oh well- I got to a big tournament and that's more than the overwhelming majority of people playing competitively can ever hope to achieve. If I cheat, I become a scumbag for the rest of my life and I'm little more than a guy who cheated at a game of little plastic soldiers. On camera, like an idiot.
Then again, I'm the sort of guy that believes once you start cheating the game is... not a thing any more. Does that make sense? Sort of like pretending a prostitute is a real girlfriend, I guess. Fake, you know.
I'm with you there, but I'm not really surprised to be honest. I played against two players of that kind before (most miserable games I ever had) and one was an obscure, super-low stakes, minor regional tournament where the top trophy was a golden Black Reach Dreadnought, the other was just a regular friendly game. Some people NEED the kick of winning that badly that they are willing to cheat for it, trying to influence the game into their favour by many small tricks and cheats, seemingly compulsively like a cleptomaniac would try to steal completely worthless things out of an impulse.
And the way many of those super competitive players try to stand in the spotlight online for internet-fame (heck, I know at least one top US player that even makes money writing lists for people thanks to his pedigree), I'm not surprised if winning a grand tournament in London of all places has a massive attraction to those people that want to win and all the endorphines resulting from that and the resulting 'fame', including potential world wide shoutouts from the GW social media.
Ragnar Blackmane wrote: I'm not surprised if winning a grand tournament in London of all places has a massive attraction to those people that want to win and all the endorphines resulting from that and the resulting 'fame'.
Maybe that's where I find the alien part of it. I don't like the idea of 'fame', I don't want everyone to know me, I don't like being the center of attention. I won one actual tournament in my entire life, and I asked if we could use the prize money for Chick-Fil-A.
Maybe I've just never seen any prize for playing Toy Space Soldiers as being worth my integrity as a player.
I don't care about the specifics of the stream game and what constitutes cheating. I haven't watched and have no opinion. However it is crucial context that he has a reputation. He was caught 'cheating' on stream at the South Coast GT last year (may have got the dates wrong) and has been dq'd in other events before IIRC. Previous attempts at changing his behaviour through discretion does not appear to have worked.
Look, at such a tounament... why would you cheat? You've gotten further than 99% of the people who play. You are being watched. Why would you get so far, just to become the most reviled and humiliated player on the planet?
Maybe he never would have made it that far without all of the little cheats along the way. People who tend to make "mistakes" in their own favor are doing it intentionally. Here's what I usually do when I'm tired:
Forget to move/shoot/assault with a unit.
Forget about special rules that apply in my opponent's turn.
Forget an entire phase.
Forget about units that aren't on the table.
Bump things by accident, but then let my opponent know and decide how it should be resolved.
I don't recall being tired ever making me say that I pre-measured distances two inches shorter than they really were.
Maybe he never would have made it that far without all of the little cheats along the way. People who tend to make "mistakes" in their own favor are doing it intentionally.
Considering in the past he's had warnings about his sketchy game play style, and has been warned about cheating... I'm pretty sure you're right.
And when I'm 'tired' I will make all kinds of dumb mistakes and if they are in my favor, I'm too brain-dead to realize it and lose the opportunity to exploit it.
I think the worst I've been was I forgot my Primaris Marines had 2 wounds.
On the one hand, the GT was run like gak and a lifetime ban is harsh. On the other, unsportsmanlike conduct is cancerous to competitive play. It creates a terrible image for competitive environments, and only serves to create a greater dichotomy between casual and competitive play where there shouldn't be one.
On the whole, I agree with the ruling. Tournaments should be the last place where TFG behaviour is tolerated, and it's certainly the exact opposite of what sort of image GW or competitive communities should be projecting. If this reinforces that point, all the better. Cheating and otherwise ruining your opponent's game is not inclusive or competitive behaviour.
Pretty much everything noted this guy did can be attributed to poor gaming habits rather than actual cheating. However, people with such poor gaming habits don’t normally get to the top table.
I'm really surprised they didn't go back, look at his other matches, make sure there was a pattern rather than sloppy game play, and post other instances to show that pattern. My experience is that you find cheaters not just through your own dubious occurrences with them but by comparing them with other players in your local element. We had a couple guys banned from playing at the old local GW store after enough people brought it to management attention, who caught them in the act.
If everything was streamed and recorded then they had the ability to do it, even if it would be grueling. It's better then potentially slandering someone who might have been tired that game but otherwise played fairly.
Skaorn wrote: I'm really surprised they didn't go back, look at his other matches, make sure there was a pattern rather than sloppy game play, and post other instances to show that pattern. My experience is that you find cheaters not just through your own dubious occurrences with them but by comparing them with other players in your local element. We had a couple guys banned from playing at the old local GW store after enough people brought it to management attention, who caught them in the act.
If everything was streamed and recorded then they had the ability to do it, even if it would be grueling. It's better then potentially slandering someone who might have been tired that game but otherwise played fairly.
They had video to go back and review of this game. Unlikely they had video of the other games. Not everything was streamed. There was 175 tables, no way they could stream all of that.
I don't care about the specifics of the stream game and what constitutes cheating. I haven't watched and have no opinion. However it is crucial context that he has a reputation. He was caught 'cheating' on stream at the South Coast GT last year (may have got the dates wrong) and has been dq'd in other events before IIRC. Previous attempts at changing his behaviour through discretion does not appear to have worked.
This being true then chances are the TO might well have gone back over his previous history at other events. Being caught cheating, esp within a short span of time, multiple times and being punished for it and still continuing is bound to be the kind of behaviour that jumps someone from a suspension into a life-long ban.
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Skaorn wrote: You can always try reaching out to his opponents in that case.
Unless they have a video recording chances are memory alone isn't good enough. People forget things and focus on different things at any one time. Get a dozen people to watch a match and they'll all remember different bits and have a slightly different view on the game. Subtle motions and such and little mistakes would be the kind of thing people won't remember perfectly; or if they do will have a clear bias.
Video at least provides a means to review that doesn't suffer from those human limitations (esp if people have been playing games for a whole day and thus could easily mix up different matches
I don’t know how anyone can view those video clips and not see some blatant shady moves. The water bottle one in particular was like super secret ninja move crazy shady it’s not even a legit bump or anything it’s like I see your distracted so let me push this bottle with enough pressure to move this massive model cheating.
gungo wrote: I don’t know how anyone can view those video clips and not see some blatant shady moves. The water bottle one in particular was like super secret ninja move crazy shady it’s not even a legit bump or anything it’s like I see your distracted so let me push this bottle with enough pressure to move this massive model cheating.
I must admit that when I saw that I was very surprised, it could be that I was biased going into the video and looking for him cheating but even so... that looked pretty deliberate.
gungo wrote: I don’t know how anyone can view those video clips and not see some blatant shady moves. The water bottle one in particular was like super secret ninja move crazy shady it’s not even a legit bump or anything it’s like I see your distracted so let me push this bottle with enough pressure to move this massive model cheating.
I must admit that when I saw that I was very surprised, it could be that I was biased going into the video and looking for him cheating but even so... that looked pretty deliberate.
Just more proof that 40k isn't supposed to be a competitive game. The more we as a community, and GW as a company, can push the casual side of things, the better.
drbored wrote: Just more proof that 40k isn't supposed to be a competitive game. The more we as a community, and GW as a company, can push the casual side of things, the better.
He won LVO yet no one called him out. Winning LVO is like being a God. LGT was a hot garbage fire with the terrain issues. I wanted to go but was hestitant because of the cost and lack of track record. Throwing Alex under the bus to cover and distract from the real issues is totally unprofessional.
This is 40k... it doesn't matter either way now as the vast majority of people have already made up their minds with next to no evidence to support anything. As a historian I would watch the footage in detail with analysis of previous games but I don't care enough to even attempt that.
If he really did cheat and it can be proven, then banning is perfectly called for. Take a strong stance that cheating will not, under any circumstances, be tolerated. But only if you can prove that he deliberately cheated. I didn't see the footage, and I'm not about to watch it just to see if he cheated, so I have no actual opinion on this, but I do think that cheating should be taken seriously at any major gaming event, just as it is in actual sports (where records and wins can be stripped from you even after the fact if it is later found that there was doping, etc.).
If he's got a record of being censored for cheating at other events then a life ban ban is approperate. and I hope future tournies also give him the ultimate sanction if they catch him
Primark G wrote: He won LVO yet no one called him out. Winning LVO is like being a God. LGT was a hot garbage fire with the terrain issues. I wanted to go but was hestitant because of the cost and lack of track record. Throwing Alex under the bus to cover and distract from the real issues is totally unprofessional.
Though I think a lifetime ban is overkill, I’m happy to see a GT actually, recognize, call out, and punish cheating for once. Because the response of previous TOs has literally been “oh well he’s actually a great guy” whenever slow play or illegal lists have been seen at top tables.
I fully support life-time bans for cheaters. Their toxic to a community, and it doesn't take much to ruin an event or gaming group. I would gladly play crowded tables, poor terrain, and rushed play, before I play with cheaters.
Watch the video. He's obviously a cheater. And a liar.
Is he? Apart from the hammerhead push(for which nobody has shown what he gained there) all others are stuff I have done accidentally myself. So if he's cheater based on video you are accusing me cheater as well and since I know I have done purposedly none of that I'll take offend on that one.
vaklor4 wrote: He may not be a cheater, but he is kind of a doofus for trying to argue his point in a highly condesending manner to authority figures
I can argue my police tickets if i think i was wrongfully accused, how is this any different?
The former is a public instution and the latter is a private event.
If you go into a McDonald's and tell the cashier he should kill himself do you think you have the right to continue to be served by that McDonald's?
Hyperbole much? How is telling someone i'm going to kill myself and then asking for service the same thing as being told you did something wrong and you have a right to stand up for yourself? It doest.
man, that stigma is stuck with him forever, every one of his opponents will have that inclination to watch his every move, for mishap during live stream, even if he is tired. His response was palpable, gaining no advantage for what he did during game was BS, as those pointed out in the reddit replies, most obvious was picking up opponents wound counter, I don't know how that could of happened. I don't agree with the perma ban, but to each of TO's decision.
If he attributes all of his mistakes to "I was hung over and tired", that's still probably his fault.
It should have been his responsibility to take care of his body and be in an acceptable playing state. If I'm doing a show, then I'm required to be awake, alert, and in control of my situation before every gig. I shouldn't be drinking myself silly before one - and the same should have been applied here. I can't speak for time, because apparently the event was poorly managed with regards to things like that, but he admits he had been drinking - that was his choice, and he should have known it could affect him negatively.
Watch the video. He's obviously a cheater. And a liar.
Is he? Apart from the hammerhead push(for which nobody has shown what he gained there) all others are stuff I have done accidentally myself. So if he's cheater based on video you are accusing me cheater as well and since I know I have done purposedly none of that I'll take offend on that one.
Yes, he is. I've played cheats before, so don't think I don't know.
If you're like that, then I guess you are, too. Play better, and grow up. There's no need to get all huffy over this, unless you just realized that you are a cheater, and should be banned yourself.
Look, at such a tounament... why would you cheat? You've gotten further than 99% of the people who play. You are being watched. Why would you get so far, just to become the most reviled and humiliated player on the planet?
Maybe he never would have made it that far without all of the little cheats along the way. People who tend to make "mistakes" in their own favor are doing it intentionally. Here's what I usually do when I'm tired:
Forget to move/shoot/assault with a unit.
Forget about special rules that apply in my opponent's turn.
Forget an entire phase.
Forget about units that aren't on the table.
Bump things by accident, but then let my opponent know and decide how it should be resolved.
I don't recall being tired ever making me say that I pre-measured distances two inches shorter than they really were.
My mistakes are more like these except usually when I bump something it's a nearby table or player rather than the one I'm at.I want to give him the benefit of the doubt but too many little things.
Lets also be realistic about a lifetime ban.
Chances are in 10 years or so he could reapply to have the ban overturned on grounds of good behaviour outside of that tournament. Ergo if he can prove he's changed his ways then there is hope that in the future he could attend once more.
Which would have the ban achieve its intended goal - reformation of a cheater into an honest player.
As several have said the typical pattern for a sloppy/lazy/distracted/tired player is to do things that are often detrimental to the players own standing by accident rather than to nearly always land in their favour.
Overread wrote: Lets also be realistic about a lifetime ban.
Chances are in 10 years or so he could reapply to have the ban overturned on grounds of good behaviour outside of that tournament. Ergo if he can prove he's changed his ways then there is hope that in the future he could attend once more.
Which would have the ban achieve its intended goal - reformation of a cheater into an honest player.
As several have said the typical pattern for a sloppy/lazy/distracted/tired player is to do things that are often detrimental to the players own standing by accident rather than to nearly always land in their favour.
To be fair, judging by how it's been managed I'd be surprised if there is a London Grand Tournament in 10 years.
I've not paid huge attention to the Tournament but yeah from the casual glance at reports from it that I've read it wouldn't shock me if it either folds and is replaced or if they have a huge shake up after this year.
So yes could be that even within a year the ban is null and void - although it wil still have sent a message and be a mark on this players track record at other major tournament events that he won't shrug off easily.
Watch the video. He's obviously a cheater. And a liar.
Is he? Apart from the hammerhead push(for which nobody has shown what he gained there) all others are stuff I have done accidentally myself. So if he's cheater based on video you are accusing me cheater as well and since I know I have done purposedly none of that I'll take offend on that one.
Yes, he is. I've played cheats before, so don't think I don't know.
If you're like that, then I guess you are, too. Play better, and grow up. There's no need to get all huffy over this, unless you just realized that you are a cheater, and should be banned yourself.
How nice of you to make assumptions about me. Well if you want to show world level of your own foolishness feel free.
I think it should be celebrated when a tournament organiser takes the step they have. There needs to be some people made examples of so that the rest of us can go to tournaments and not expect to have to be nice and frielndly to your opponents and simultaneously watch them like a hawk and try to know every rule in their books or keep asking them to prove their rules etc.
Tournament gaming should be a fun but competitive experience not a chore.
I think this tournament organiser however may be guilty of trying to create some spin over this scenario to detract from their abysmal performance. They need to come out and apologise for their poor showing and do a better go next year.
To be honest. I dont think Alex was cheating but more of misplaying. Having fatigue and being in a very hot room full of 200+ people will affect your mental and physical state. However. I do not think his reasons for miss-playing are great excuses.
If he is complaining that being tired and hung over affected his gaming than he should have gone to sleep early and shouldn't of drank alcohol?
You can't blame how you preform on others when you didn't take the right steps to prepare yourself for the next day. I know most people like to enjoy a few socials when at a tournaments to catch up and what not but dont drink to the point were you will be hung over and it will affect your game play.
Did he cheat to win the game? Probably not but he did do stuff he should of realised was wrong. Even fixing something in the same turn is better than waiting till your opponents turn and you try to "fix" to the occasion.
Is it okay to blame how he played on Alcohol and fatigue? Hell no. Alex was in control of his body the whole time. If he wanted to make sure he was going to be playing better and with a fresh head he should have went to sleep rather than drinking with people the night before and while running on 3 hours of sleep.
The ban is a bit harsh but Alex can't blame the TOs for the stuff he was doing wrong.
Is he? Apart from the hammerhead push(for which nobody has shown what he gained there) all others are stuff I have done accidentally myself. So if he's cheater based on video you are accusing me cheater as well and since I know I have done purposedly none of that I'll take offend on that one.
He gained by pushing the Hammerhead out of the potential line of sight for the bike that jumped around the corner. They called it as not visible when Geoff went to check for visibility shortly thereafter. There is also little chance he didn't hear his cup hit the tank.
Now whether that was intentional or not...no idea.
Odrankt wrote: To be honest. I dont think Alex was cheating but more of misplaying. Having fatigue and being in a very hot room full of 200+ people will affect your mental and physical state. However. I do not think his reasons for miss-playing are great excuses.
If he is complaining that being tired and hung over affected his gaming than he should have gone to sleep early and shouldn't of drank alcohol?
You can't blame how you preform on others when you didn't take the right steps to prepare yourself for the next day. I know most people like to enjoy a few socials when at a tournaments to catch up and what not but dont drink to the point were you will be hung over and it will affect your game play.
Did he cheat to win the game? Probably not but he did do stuff he should of realised was wrong. Even fixing something in the same turn is better than waiting till your opponents turn and you try to "fix" to the occasion.
Is it okay to blame how he played on Alcohol and fatigue? Hell no. Alex was in control of his body the whole time. If he wanted to make sure he was going to be playing better and with a fresh head he should have went to sleep rather than drinking with people the night before and while running on 3 hours of sleep.
The ban is a bit harsh but Alex can't blame the TOs for the stuff he was doing wrong.
Was he tired at the other tourneys he cheated at? Tired at the SCGT was he? Tired at the AoS tourney where he had to be threatened with a table flip to stop his bull? Tired at the two previous 40k tournaments he nudged and moved models.
People like him get away with being an arse because it's mainly decent people that want to enjoy their time doing a hobby they enjoy. It's not life and death so let it slide.
Whatever the shambles the LGT was this year, kudos for them to finally call out his nonsense.
The problem is warhammer isn't snakes and ladders. There's a lot of room for honest mistakes to happen. This is why cheaters can "hide" for a long time, because every single gamer has made mistakes in this game.
Even if you leave aside the rules debates and areas of confusion in the rules; the actual mechanics of moving models; testing line of sight etc... are all open to potential mistakes or variations in interpretation.
With cheaters its all about looking at patterns of behaviour; at repeat little mistakes that always seem to benefit them. Often repeating the same self benefiting mistakes over multiple games. Regular repeat mistakes at higher level games are more abnormal since one expects someone who places high to be pretty good with the rules and shouldn't be making the same mistake over and over.
Also its possible to get away cheating without TO being aware because they are the little mistakes that get taken back when spotted by the other player. And TO might only review game matches if requested (or review video if its taken after the game only if required).
So normally for a TO to get the point of issuing bans takes quite a lot of evidence. Plus lets not forget whilst judgement is being issued on this video of a match there might have been other reports from the day that added to it; in addition to the reports from other venues.
Odrankt wrote: To be honest. I dont think Alex was cheating but more of misplaying. Having fatigue and being in a very hot room full of 200+ people will affect your mental and physical state. However. I do not think his reasons for miss-playing are great excuses.
If he is complaining that being tired and hung over affected his gaming than he should have gone to sleep early and shouldn't of drank alcohol?
You can't blame how you preform on others when you didn't take the right steps to prepare yourself for the next day. I know most people like to enjoy a few socials when at a tournaments to catch up and what not but dont drink to the point were you will be hung over and it will affect your game play.
Did he cheat to win the game? Probably not but he did do stuff he should of realised was wrong. Even fixing something in the same turn is better than waiting till your opponents turn and you try to "fix" to the occasion.
Is it okay to blame how he played on Alcohol and fatigue? Hell no. Alex was in control of his body the whole time. If he wanted to make sure he was going to be playing better and with a fresh head he should have went to sleep rather than drinking with people the night before and while running on 3 hours of sleep.
The ban is a bit harsh but Alex can't blame the TOs for the stuff he was doing wrong.
Was he tired at the other tourneys he cheated at? Tired at the SCGT was he? Tired at the AoS tourney where he had to be threatened with a table flip to stop his bull? Tired at the two previous 40k tournaments he nudged and moved models.
People like him get away with being an arse because it's mainly decent people that want to enjoy their time doing a hobby they enjoy. It's not life and death so let it slide.
Whatever the shambles the LGT was this year, kudos for them to finally call out his nonsense.
I have no idea what has or has not happened at those other events, but looking at the list of his transgressions at LGT, uhm...
1. Pushing the Hammerhead. What's this supposed to accomplish? What does he gain? And is this something that normally happens in games of 40k without much drama?
2. Changing the wound marker. I don't know about intent here, and, frankly, I can't be bothered to even watch the video, but I've had it happen several times that wound markers (i.e., dice) next to my opponents have disappeared, or my opponent has been less than prompt at placing one. It typically isn't cheating, but it's something that annoys me, so passive-aggresively placing one myself is something I can sympathise with.
3. Forgetting to discard cards, misremembering actually having stated it or only intended to. Jesus. This happens in literally every game I've played since cards were introduced, either by myself, my opponent, or both. Has never evoked any drama for me, though.
4. I'm a bit of a stickler for measurements, but I've played against tons of guys who've been off by miles, and never thought of it as cheating. I'd see it as disrespectful and irritating, sure, but cheating? I don't know...
5. Cheating, or misplaying a rule? I'm pretty confident that if we started looking closely, LGT would have to start banning a lot more people for misplaying rules. That said, I kinda get this one the most. Screw up your own rules for your own benefits, there should be a sanction.
6. Doesn't this happen a lot? "So that's X hits" "Actually, that's a 3, not a 5" "Oh, OK, sorry."
Overall, it seems really nitpicky. I don't mind sanctions though. If he'd had all his points docked and placed last, I don't think there would have been much drama.
What I do find quite unappealing is the manner in which it's done. I'm not a fan of naming and shaming someone, especially with pretty harsh accusations (straight up calling him a liar and a cheater), publically, without first giving him a chance to respond to the accusations. It's a fairly uncivilized way of going about things, IMHO.
I'm also really uncomfortable with the community's response to this. I mean, these post-hoc gotchas like "he shouldn't have been out late on the saturday night, and top players should be flawless" just doesn't sit right with me. It's pretty low.
TBH I wish the game would eventually make the move to a video game format. Can't really nudge models or mis-measure junk then. I've seen a fair amount of people take advantage of the game's physical 3D nature to nudge, roll behind terrain and pick up dice quickly, add that extra inch of movement, etc etc. And sloppy play is really hard to catch because after the model is moved, it's no longer there to prove anything unless you have vid evidence, which is quite rare.
(And yes I'm perfectly aware that the actual 40k tabletop game will never be in vidya format, that's why it's a "wish.")
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At the highest levels of the game, you are expected to play tight. Look at track and field for example. They have a hardcore insta-DQ on false starts. You can train 4 years for an Olympic race and get booted for jumping out a millisecond too quick. (Even happened to Usain Bolt in the 2011 world champs!)
Harrison is from the UK, so it's possible that they may have more data points than what they're throwing out, such as past history at other nearby events, but didn't mention it due to lack of video proof. And if they strongly believe that it was malicious cheating behavior, many people would argue that shaming is rather helpful for the community as a whole. Other TO's know to be on the lookout, and other players see an example of what could happen to them if they try to sloppy play their way through a finals game at a huge event.
Odrankt wrote: To be honest. I dont think Alex was cheating but more of misplaying. Having fatigue and being in a very hot room full of 200+ people will affect your mental and physical state. However. I do not think his reasons for miss-playing are great excuses.
If he is complaining that being tired and hung over affected his gaming than he should have gone to sleep early and shouldn't of drank alcohol?
You can't blame how you preform on others when you didn't take the right steps to prepare yourself for the next day. I know most people like to enjoy a few socials when at a tournaments to catch up and what not but dont drink to the point were you will be hung over and it will affect your game play.
Did he cheat to win the game? Probably not but he did do stuff he should of realised was wrong. Even fixing something in the same turn is better than waiting till your opponents turn and you try to "fix" to the occasion.
Is it okay to blame how he played on Alcohol and fatigue? Hell no. Alex was in control of his body the whole time. If he wanted to make sure he was going to be playing better and with a fresh head he should have went to sleep rather than drinking with people the night before and while running on 3 hours of sleep.
The ban is a bit harsh but Alex can't blame the TOs for the stuff he was doing wrong.
Was he tired at the other tourneys he cheated at? Tired at the SCGT was he? Tired at the AoS tourney where he had to be threatened with a table flip to stop his bull? Tired at the two previous 40k tournaments he nudged and moved models.
People like him get away with being an arse because it's mainly decent people that want to enjoy their time doing a hobby they enjoy. It's not life and death so let it slide.
Whatever the shambles the LGT was this year, kudos for them to finally call out his nonsense.
Hey man, if you have evidence of all these accusations of him cheating in AoS and 40k then please send them on. Other wise I am just going to take what you say as salt until evidence is proven. I saw this guy play IRl at a tournament I was at that was ITC based and no one had anything bad to say about him besides him bringing cheesy armies.
I am not sticking up for the guy at all as I hate cheating and people who mis-play and dont fix the issue they made. I just think it was harsh that they publicly denounced him to the entire 40k community while they are getting back lash for their lack of Terrain, security issues and how the event was handled.
He probably did cheat on purpose but there was a lot of 40k streamed and I am sure a lot of other people cheated/misplayed while on stream and was not called out for it. If your putting the time and effort into accuse someone of cheating at least accuse a few more people so you have more evidence to show what cheating is and to see if others mis-play like him. At least it wouldn't look like its an Event vs 1 person as it is now.
Maybe this accusation is the "kick" competitive 40k needs to show people they mean business. But if I was to denounce someone I would at least try and do it to several people so no one person was singled out and it would also give evidence as to what I would call cheating. One TO's perspective of cheating is different to another TOs perspective of cheating so they should have at least view the video with several different TO rather than 1 singular TO or who ever manages the stream.
Thats my two-cents though. I presume your going to have a totally different opinion though.
I watched the video. I'm convinced he was deliberately cheating. And it's quite obvious, especially when he's pushing that Hammerhead with the cup of water. In fact, it would almost seem clever if there wasn't a camera on it making it so obvious (it's something that most people on a table would never notice).
I'm not sure about the 'lifetime ban'. I think he deserves a chance to redeem himself and fix this, and I think there could be a way for him to get the ban repealed- for example, if he took the time to host free painting classes at his local FLGS, work to create terrain for the next LGT, or something else for the 'community' while running some games with others to prove he can do it without cheating.
I think a lot of the claims about how crappy the LGT was are trying to muddy the waters. Don't get me wrong, everything I'm seeing about it seems like it sucks and I'd never go to a tournament like that.
Kilgore19d wrote: ...The tournament community for WH40K is more toxic than online gaming.
The worst of the WH40K community is no where near as bad as online gaming. If the biggest problem we have is some dude moving a miniature with a glass of water we're totally OK
Eonfuzz wrote: ...some dude moving a miniature with a glass of water...
Isn't a problem. It's all the fanboys and try-hards. And it's not okay. Because more than likely, they're the same personalities of terrible people from online gaming. The internet provides anonymity, playing on the table top doesn't. Those types of personalities often forget that.
Eonfuzz wrote: The worst of the WH40K community is no where near as bad as online gaming. If the biggest problem we have is some dude moving a miniature with a glass of water we're totally OK
That's spot on. 'Cheating' is always going to happen, in every sort of competition. No matter if it's a professional athlete, or poker games with plastic coins. Online gaming isn't even that bad in comparison. 40k's tournament scene is strict in many ways, but that strictness prevents a lot of the bigger problems.
I've seen more scummy behavior in casual PUGs with nothing to gain.
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Kilgore19d wrote: Isn't a problem. It's all the fanboys and try-hards. And it's not okay. Because more than likely, they're the same personalities of terrible people from online gaming. The internet provides anonymity, playing on the table top doesn't. Those types of personalities often forget that.
Funny thing about online gaming- I've never seen a game where you couldn't mute or ignore an idiot.
Eonfuzz wrote: ...some dude moving a miniature with a glass of water...
Isn't a problem. It's all the fanboys and try-hards. And it's not okay. Because more than likely, they're the same personalities of terrible people from online gaming. The internet provides anonymity, playing on the table top doesn't. Those types of personalities often forget that.
So cheating isn't a problem because of "personalities"? that. Cheat and get banned. Zero sympathy for that cheating TFG.
His website is called... wait for it... Glasshammer Gaming.
You could not make it up
In all seriousness, I am a bit disappointed to see this kind of stuff from an established player. My guess is that having set up a website to try and promote European 40k and monetise his undoubted skill and knowledge at the game, he felt under pressure to perform.
Sometimes when people feel like they can't be seen to be average, let alone fail, they make poor choices.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: Funny thing about online gaming- I've never seen a game where you couldn't mute or ignore an idiot.
Yeah, but I have seen WH40K games where someone has been punched in the face, someone had loaded dice, a model has been picked up and thrown at the wall (seen this multiple times), and people being banned from stores for false accusations.
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Peregrine wrote: So cheating isn't a problem because of "personalities"? that. Cheat and get banned. Zero sympathy for that cheating TFG.
Kilgore19d wrote: Yeah, but I have seen WH40K games where someone has been punched in the face, someone had loaded dice, a model has been picked up and thrown at the wall (seen this multiple times), and people being banned from stores for false accusations.
Where the hell are you gaming, Detroit?
But no, I've seen some bizarre things, too. And do you know what you do to those people? It's effective, too- so follow with me.
You call them a big f'in child. You laugh at them. You publicly humiliate them for being such a weakling that they had a hissy fit, cheated, or otherwise had to lie about someone over a game of plastic toy war dudes. You try to get proof if you can, and use social media (local gaming group pages, for example) to expose him. Ridicule is a powerful tool, and you might not change his ways- but depending on how well you execute this, you can certainly change his plans on where he's able to game.
Now if someone punches you in the face, defend yourself as needed and call the law. If you can make a lawsuit out of it, do it.
I wasn't personally involved in those cases, it was just happening in my gaming community during 6th edition and I witnessed them. About the last two years of 'Ard Boyz. (I think that was 6th edition)
Some things can be purely accidental. I've watched some video BRs that I have been playing in (won't do a shameless plug) and have seen myself pick up a dice that did not hit and roll it with ones that did hit. And this is a single game, not tired or fatigued etc. However, i also notice not picking up hits etc, so usually mistakes do not favour one side or the other, but they do happen more than you think.
As for the Hammerhead, I don't care what he achieved by doing so....it's still cheating, it was deliberate. If he's willing to do that, and then say it was an accident, then you know he has done other dubious acts before.
Odrankt wrote: He probably did cheat on purpose but there was a lot of 40k streamed and I am sure a lot of other people cheated/misplayed while on stream and was not called out for it. If your putting the time and effort into accuse someone of cheating at least accuse a few more people so you have more evidence to show what cheating is and to see if others mis-play like him. At least it wouldn't look like its an Event vs 1 person as it is now.
This has got to be one of he most ludicrous statements I have seen in a long time. Sure that guy cheated but you can't just single him out just because he's on video tape. You have to find everyone else who cheated and punish them as well. If you can't find them all then no one should be punished.
How about we get rid of cheaters one at a time as we find them. If multiple people are caught cheating then get rid of all of them. The "But there are others doing the same thing" defense only works until you hit age 4 after that it doesn't matter what anyone else is doing. You're responsible for your actions. Man up and accept the consequences.
Kilgore19d wrote: I wasn't personally involved in those cases, it was just happening in my gaming community during 6th edition and I witnessed them. About the last two years of 'Ard Boyz. (I think that was 6th edition)
I should also be one to offer advice: When a local community gets 'toxic' with a bunch of jerks, bullies, crybabies, tryhards, cheaters, and what-have-you... there's a solution. You get together with the good players and start working on making a private gaming club- and you start buying your stuff online and stop shopping at the FLGS. One of two things will happen:
1- You'll create a private gaming club that you can determine who gets to participate, and you'll keep out the scumbags. It'll be a lot more comfortable gaming for everyone involved and you can do great things like have a beer and pretzels game in the garage.
2- Shop owners will realize that they're losing customers and step in to manage the bad elements before you have to start pricing game tables.
Kilgore19d wrote: I wasn't personally involved in those cases, it was just happening in my gaming community during 6th edition and I witnessed them. About the last two years of 'Ard Boyz. (I think that was 6th edition)
I should also be one to offer advice: When a local community gets 'toxic' with a bunch of jerks, bullies, crybabies, tryhards, cheaters, and what-have-you... there's a solution. You get together with the good players and start working on making a private gaming club- and you start buying your stuff online and stop shopping at the FLGS. One of two things will happen:
1- You'll create a private gaming club that you can determine who gets to participate, and you'll keep out the scumbags. It'll be a lot more comfortable gaming for everyone involved and you can do great things like have a beer and pretzels game in the garage.
2- Shop owners will realize that they're losing customers and step in to manage the bad elements before you have to start pricing game tables.
That's good. You can't directly control everyone in the gaming community, for sure. You can't have a zero-sum solution to any problem in any place that you aren't in charge of. That's why it's great to have an option for things like a private gaming club. In an area I lived a few years ago, we had to do exactly that. Cheating was a lot less of a problem, and it didn't take long for the bad elements of the community to realize why they were being denied membership and invitations to events.
When your garage on a Tuesday has more people than all four local FLGS on a Saturday- it sends a message.
Overread wrote: I've not paid huge attention to the Tournament but yeah from the casual glance at reports from it that I've read it wouldn't shock me if it either folds and is replaced or if they have a huge shake up after this year.
So yes could be that even within a year the ban is null and void - although it wil still have sent a message and be a mark on this players track record at other major tournament events that he won't shrug off easily.
What a pity, too - everybody seems to have written this tournament off due to the reviews despite it being like only 2 years old and coming into being right when 8th edition helped explode the hobby. They clearly weren't prepared for the size, but everybody seems to forget that LVO and Adepticon have been around for like a decade and had the time and (most importantly) the community's patience as they went through their early years. Losing tournaments is not something we should be cheering for, guys. That doesn't grow the hobby - it shrinks it, and with a community so keen on seeing things fail, no matter what it is, then maybe that's what we deserve.
Anyway, back to Cheater McCheaterpants. Whataboutisms are usually the realm of the guilty - so what does it say that he immediately used that defense as his first response?
niv-mizzet wrote: @Thud
At the highest levels of the game, you are expected to play tight. Look at track and field for example. They have a hardcore insta-DQ on false starts. You can train 4 years for an Olympic race and get booted for jumping out a millisecond too quick. (Even happened to Usain Bolt in the 2011 world champs!)
Harrison is from the UK, so it's possible that they may have more data points than what they're throwing out, such as past history at other nearby events, but didn't mention it due to lack of video proof. And if they strongly believe that it was malicious cheating behavior, many people would argue that shaming is rather helpful for the community as a whole. Other TO's know to be on the lookout, and other players see an example of what could happen to them if they try to sloppy play their way through a finals game at a huge event.
Three things, though.
There are highest levels of the game, and then there are highest levels of the game. Usain Bolt gets paid to do what he does, and so do others, not just athletes, but support staff as well. 40k is something you do on your spare time because it's more fun than re-watching something on Netflix for the third time. Ironically, the few people who do get paid for playing 40k (the guys on GW's stream and MWG) get stuff wrong all the time.
Getting DQ'ed for a false start is known ahead of time, agreed upon by all, and fairly straight-forward.
And most importantly, no one's saying Usain Bolt is what's wrong with track and field because he had a false start. If anything he'd get sympathy.
Whether or not many people argue that shaming is helpful to combat unwanted behaviour is on them. I'm not a fan. If he cheated (as I said; haven't watched the video), then sure, dock his points, DQ him, ban him for life, whatever. But this public dirty laundry business is not something I can see as positive for any community. Especially since it devolves into nitpicking around minor issues just to build the case further. That sets a pretty terrible precedent.
Thud wrote: . But this public dirty laundry business is not something I can see as positive for any community. Especially since it devolves into nitpicking around minor issues just to build the case further. That sets a pretty terrible precedent.
I disagree, respectfully, because there is some merit to the 'public shaming'. It is not punishment for him. His punishment is the ban. Granted, because he is banned for cheating there will be social repercussions to that. BUT:
1- 'Airing dirty laundry' is a way to make it clear why someone was banned. If a ban was discrete and private, it can quickly become a 'he said, she said' thing. He could be silently banned for cheating, and then what is stopping him from publicly claiming he was banned for something unjustly? He could easily lie, and this public statement makes it clear that the LGT banned him for a legitimate reason.
2- If there is at least one person out there cheating, and they see this public humiliation and say, "I can't deal with that embarrassment, I better play clean" then the system has worked.
I look at this public shaming as the event informing other players and TOs about this player's behavior. It lets everyone know what they've done and why. Whether you agree that he was cheating or not is another matter. The TO felt that he was and took an action he thought was appropriate.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: 2- If there is at least one person out there cheating, and they see this public humiliation and say, "I can't deal with that embarrassment, I better play clean" then the system has worked.
Exactly. Public shaming, as long as it is done accurately and not as a witch hunt against someone who was innocent, demonstrates that if you cheat you risk a lot more than being DQed from one particular event that hardly anyone will ever hear about. Your name will be all over the internet, every forum will be talking about you, and you will be permanently blacklisted from ever participating in anything more than a local pickup game against a newbie who doesn't know who you are yet. The worst thing we can do with cheaters is enable their anonymity and let them know that the price of cheating is light and temporary.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: 2- If there is at least one person out there cheating, and they see this public humiliation and say, "I can't deal with that embarrassment, I better play clean" then the system has worked.
Exactly. Public shaming, as long as it is done accurately and not as a witch hunt against someone who was innocent, demonstrates that if you cheat you risk a lot more than being DQed from one particular event that hardly anyone will ever hear about. Your name will be all over the internet, every forum will be talking about you, and you will be permanently blacklisted from ever participating in anything more than a local pickup game against a newbie who doesn't know who you are yet. The worst thing we can do with cheaters is enable their anonymity and let them know that the price of cheating is light and temporary.
Agreed. They tried the softly-softly approach with him and he didn't change his ways.
Public shaming does not act as a deterrent, the people that get away with whatever they get away with have a habit of always trying the get away with it regardless of consequences because it’s a habit they find beneficial. That’s why prisons and executions have never been a deterrent towards crime. The people that shaming works on already have habits that avoid potential shaming, just like most people avoid criminal activity because they don’t want to get caught.
A lifetime ban is overkill for a hobby. Ban him from next year’s event, that would be fair. A lifetime ban mean no revenue from that guy, no revenue from his associates, and no revenue from those that disagree with the ruling. No revenue is kind of counter productive given the need to recoup loses for paying for the venue and any advertising. And that’s if he actually cheated. I’m still not convinced, it just looks like bad games by habits to me. He should be ashamed of that, but people with bad habits tend to not be shameful of those habits, which is why a lifetime ban maybe counterproductive.
jeffersonian000 wrote: That’s why prisons and executions have never been a deterrent towards crime.
They do a pretty good job of keeping them from committing more crime against the general public, though. Dude's locked up, not going to be robbing houses. Dude 6 feet under causes zer problems for anyone.
jeffersonian000 wrote: That’s why prisons and executions have never been a deterrent towards crime.
They do a pretty good job of keeping them from committing more crime against the general public, though. Dude's locked up, not going to be robbing houses. Dude 6 feet under causes zer problems for anyone.
Dude locked up can’t provide for his family while costing taxpayers, and creates another generation of criminals due to their needing to survive without resources. Dude 6’ under wasted taxpayers money and can no longer pay taxes.
Prisons don’t fix anything. Better social programs and a more robust economy fixes crime rates.
Especially if you consider it's actually pretty damn expensive for the state to legally kill another person. As well as final.
Even the little bit of law I studied in high school, there's a good number of innocent people wrongfully convicted of crimes. If those people were executed, then essentially the state murders and innocent man.
It sends a message with deters some of those from cheating behaviour, but not all.
It sends a message that if you cheat you will be punished when caught, thus it shows that there is accountability for behaviour at the event.
That tells people going that should the worst happen, ergo a cheater, then the organisers are willing to take action. This makes normal attending people feel safer because even if they find a cheater there is a feeling that the cheater will be punished (not just wrist slapped or ignored).
It also starts to set a tone of behaviour that the gamer social group at the event wants to achieve.
It might be justified, but it was handled poorly. It feels reactionary to an ongoing problem that has been allowed to fester too long, when you go, oops that guy cheated, oops this guy cheated, wow that guy cheated too, THAT'S IT, THIS GUY IS BANNED FOR LIFE!
The reason every single game company besides GW puts out a tournament packet with some pretty lax standards for basic human behavior as rules isn't really to prevent cheating. The rules of the game are already rules that prevent cheating. What event packets really provide is a backing for TOs to react to problems and something that helps give a social backing when they need to take action.
Ultimately, this shows more of a need for tournament standardization, code of conduct and the like than anything. I think action was merited but a year ban would have been far less controversial and largely sent the same message.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Public shaming does not act as a deterrent, the people that get away with whatever they get away with have a habit of always trying the get away with it regardless of consequences because it’s a habit they find beneficial. That’s why prisons and executions have never been a deterrent towards crime. The people that shaming works on already have habits that avoid potential shaming, just like most people avoid criminal activity because they don’t want to get caught.
A lifetime ban is overkill for a hobby. Ban him from next year’s event, that would be fair. A lifetime ban mean no revenue from that guy, no revenue from his associates, and no revenue from those that disagree with the ruling. No revenue is kind of counter productive given the need to recoup loses for paying for the venue and any advertising. And that’s if he actually cheated. I’m still not convinced, it just looks like bad games by habits to me. He should be ashamed of that, but people with bad habits tend to not be shameful of those habits, which is why a lifetime ban maybe counterproductive.
SJ
Tournaments don't care about losing 1 guy, esp big ones that sell out regardless.
The I am willing to bet the lost revenue from his friends who stop showing up (if any do at all) doesn't weight up to the potential extra revenue from people who stay away from tournaments now because they are full of cheaters that never get punished (in their eyes, regardless of the validity of such a claim).
jeffersonian000 wrote: Public shaming does not act as a deterrent, the people that get away with whatever they get away with have a habit of always trying the get away with it regardless of consequences because it’s a habit they find beneficial. That’s why prisons and executions have never been a deterrent towards crime. The people that shaming works on already have habits that avoid potential shaming, just like most people avoid criminal activity because they don’t want to get caught.
A lifetime ban is overkill for a hobby. Ban him from next year’s event, that would be fair. A lifetime ban mean no revenue from that guy, no revenue from his associates, and no revenue from those that disagree with the ruling. No revenue is kind of counter productive given the need to recoup loses for paying for the venue and any advertising. And that’s if he actually cheated. I’m still not convinced, it just looks like bad games by habits to me. He should be ashamed of that, but people with bad habits tend to not be shameful of those habits, which is why a lifetime ban maybe counterproductive.
SJ
You don't ban or punish people because you want that person to stop doing it. You ban them to ensure that other people don't feel cheated playing agaisnt that kind of person. You ban them because it is fair for the community.
Is like dopping in sports. If you allow it, you end in a point where the clean athletes ask themselves "Why shouldn't I do it too?"
Galas wrote: You don't ban or punish people because you want that person to stop doing it. You ban them to ensure that other people don't feel cheated playing agaisnt that kind of person. You ban them because it is fair for the community. Is like dopping in sports. If you allow it, you end in a point where the clean athletes ask themselves "Why shouldn't I do it too?"
There's a good documentary (Icarus) on the whole doping scandal with the Russians.
As much as people want to scoff at people cheating at Warhammer and calling it a bad tournament style game they should look at how pervasive cheating is in sports. It's absolutely rife. Even with figures like Lance Armstrong being caught and punished it still happens.
it may well be people cheating will "always happen", however when its seen to have no repercussions it rapidly will become the "accepted normal way to play" and the spiral goes down.
you either come down hard or you don't bother.
I've played in events that had people cheating (illegal lists mostly), with a TO who was basically "well its too late to do anything now". Have also played at events where there were requirements in the pack (limits on unit size, requirements to be assembled and painted) that were not enforced.
both drag the quality of the event down.
Have also played at events where people trying to be "cute" get told to stop it, and listen, because they know the organisers will either dock them points or DQ them
gungo wrote: I don’t know how anyone can view those video clips and not see some blatant shady moves. The water bottle one in particular was like super secret ninja move crazy shady it’s not even a legit bump or anything it’s like I see your distracted so let me push this bottle with enough pressure to move this massive model cheating.
That was my thought as well. Follow it up with the dice change and it makes the rest of the issues just that much more obvious what he was doing. Tired or not, that was some of the worst behavior I have seen in a streamed game.
IMO the ban is deserved. Wish they would do the same in some of the events here in the US.
gungo wrote: I don’t know how anyone can view those video clips and not see some blatant shady moves. The water bottle one in particular was like super secret ninja move crazy shady it’s not even a legit bump or anything it’s like I see your distracted so let me push this bottle with enough pressure to move this massive model cheating.
That was my thought as well. Follow it up with the dice change and it makes the rest of the issues just that much more obvious what he was doing. Tired or not, that was some of the worst behavior I have seen in a streamed game.
IMO the ban is deserved. Wish they would do the same in some of the events here in the US.
The water bottle isn't clearly cheating to me... Now let me preference that it might have been. The reason why it doesn't seem blatant to me is because of the overhead view. Things always look obvious or weird when viewed from an odd way like that. When they would review video back when i played college/pro hockey there would be goals or offsides that you would think were terrible calls until you saw the overhead view for yourself.
Once again he might have been using it to cheat but
1. I just don't see the motive for nudging it and what he would have gained from it (he pointed this out in his post). If your going to cheat it's usually blatantly obvious what you're attempting to do
2. Nobody watching the game said anything at the time. My guess is if it looked odd at normal eye level people would have immediately called him out.
Once again if he was cheating I fully support bans/punishment. That being said i think you should either catch someone in the act or have rock solid proof and to me this is a little too much of a grey area and could go either way (I also have never met/ played him so I have no previous notions about him to make me lean one way or the other)
Some variance on all of the actions this guy made are things I have seen on multiple occasions in Warhammer tournaments, and in every case I have seen a similar action taken that I felt was likely on accident and another that was bordering on cheating.
No one knows the rules to a GW game as well as they think they do. No matter how good, I have never encountered a player who did not make mistakes, and occasionally misread a rule in a tourney. I have known plenty of guys who played a little fast or lose, and occasionally did something a little shady, though I would never label them straight up cheaters, or suggest banning them. Only 2 players have I ever seen straight up deserve the type of treatment this guy is getting here, and both did more obvious and egregious things on a constant basis (and neither got called out like this, ever). At the end of the day this is just a game, and I would even hesitate to do to the 2 aforementioned players what these tourney organizers did to this fellow for much less. I feel bad for him. Fine Ban the guy, but making such public declarations on debatable evidence, from post game second guessing over a video? Come on.
I love how so many in the online community hold up top wargaming players as if they are professional athletes. They are not. No one is payed for this (and if you think prize money counts you are hilarious, even first place isn't going to pay for much more then your weekend's expenses (if that) if you are an out of towner). Furthermore even those that play constantly get rules wrong. GW sucks at writing rules, they are a mess, and especially if you are a top player you are likely constantly changing armies. Who hasn't fumbled a model, or misplayed a rule for months before realizing it? I was a competitive player in fantasy for years, and I am telling you great sportsman and cheaters alike have made the mistakes listed in this thread. I think a few of the things this guy did looked shady on camera and a few looked completely innocent, but I see very little clear evidence of intentional cheating that goes beyond anything you see in almost every match in a normal tourney. This is not a clean game, this is not a professional game, and no one should be crucified like this unless they are bringing weighted dice or moving models while their opponents backs are turned (seen the latter, not the former). Nudging a model half an inch with a waterbottel? Come on now. Misplaying a rule that is know to be frequently misplayed? Counters getting misplaced and replaced incorrectly (this one is a constant)? Come on guys. Spare me the high and mighty routine. Even competitive wargaming is more casual then almost every other use of the word competitive. This is just a bunch of harassed and desperate tourney organizers trying their best to rectify reputations after a terrible event. I completely understand it, but it doesn't make it okay.
Based on what others have said this person has been complained about at other events and, I presume, warned about his behavior. How many warnings do you get before you get punished? A lifetime ban is stupid on a lot of levels but at least the TOs made the effort to show that cheating is unacceptable and has repercusions.
jeffersonian000 wrote: That’s why prisons and executions have never been a deterrent towards crime.
They do a pretty good job of keeping them from committing more crime against the general public, though. Dude's locked up, not going to be robbing houses. Dude 6 feet under causes zer problems for anyone.
Dude locked up can’t provide for his family while costing taxpayers, and creates another generation of criminals due to their needing to survive without resources. Dude 6’ under wasted taxpayers money and can no longer pay taxes.
Prisons don’t fix anything. Better social programs and a more robust economy fixes crime rates.
SJ
Taxes aren't what is the most important. Ok, let's apply you logic; you free your criminals. Now they are killing, raping etc... Less taxes because lots people died/were injured by your criminals, taxes spended on taking care of the poor people robbed etc..
Oh, and when you put someone in jail, it doesn't make his family become criminals. First thing first, he has to have one family, and then, the other adult can work, too,
See ? Everyone can say anything, it won't be right for all that.
And if economy and social programs fixed anything, criminality would be over in The West Social program don't fixe anything, they waste taxpayer money. Because opening a library or a music school won't make a raper a good guy, and you know it.
And about the gaming community: again, you seem to be obsessed with money ? Who cares about the fact he won't buy his place next year ? One place, even ten, don't matter. So, because he has money we should allow him to come back and keep cheating, really ? If we could lifeban all the cheaters, it would be perfect and would greatly help the community. But you know what ? I think banning just half of them would make the other half afraid enough to make them stop cheating.
Steps have to be taken at the tournament level for the integrity of this game. The last thing anyone wants to see is another Tony get away with being a tool.
It doesn't matter if this is a paid sport or not. In order to make the community better, organizers have to take steps to handle bad play. And I agree with his salty response. The other games should be audited.
Disclaimer: I haven't watched the video, so I don't know if this dude actually cheated or not, but that is neither here nor there. They shouldn't be banning him for life unless they are absolutely 1,000% fething positive he was intentionally cheating. Even a 1% chance of giving a lifetime ban to a player for genuine mistakes is bad for the community, as we can see in this thread. A much better response would have been to DQ him and dock all of his points. That way if he was intentionally cheating, he doesn't benefit from it, while at the same time sending a message to the other players that loose play is not going to get you anywhere. Being hung over from staying up late and drinking the night before is stupid and warrants a DQ, but not a lifetime ban IMO.
But I wanted to say this:
jeffersonian000 wrote: Public shaming does not act as a deterrent, the people that get away with whatever they get away with have a habit of always trying the get away with it regardless of consequences because it’s a habit they find beneficial. That’s why prisons and executions have never been a deterrent towards crime. The people that shaming works on already have habits that avoid potential shaming, just like most people avoid criminal activity because they don’t want to get caught.
Is right on the money. As someone who has done academic research into criminal justice, overly harsh punishments do absolutely nothing at all to deter crime.
Example: A government wants to stop people from speeding on a highway. Hundreds of thousands of people use this highway every day and they don't have the officers to properly patrol it, so they decide to catch one speeder per day and publicly execute them to make an "example" of them. Would the knowledge that there is a .001% chance of being caught and executed stop people from speeding? Absolutely not, because the chances of being caught are so low that people can brush it off and say "I'm not going to get caught, those people who did were just really unlucky". The chances of getting in an accident from speeding and dying from THAT are higher than that anyway.
No what really gets people to stop breaking the rules is CATCHING them, ALL of them, and giving them a moderate punishment. This is backed up by large amounts of criminal justice research. Would you really attempt to break the rules if you knew you had a 95% chance of being caught doing it?
Dishing out harsh punishments to the people who you manage to catch only makes the community "feel better" without actually doing anything constructive, and makes it impossible for said offender to redeem themselves or reform.
I guarantee you that there was a lot more "cheating" going on at this event then Mr. Harrison's little shenanigans. Why is it fair that they all get away with it and he is punished collectively for all of their sins? The only difference between him and them is that he was supposedly "caught" and they weren't.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Based on what others have said this person has been complained about at other events and, I presume, warned about his behavior. How many warnings do you get before you get punished? A lifetime ban is stupid on a lot of levels but at least the TOs made the effort to show that cheating is unacceptable and has repercusions.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Based on what others have said this person has been complained about at other events and, I presume, warned about his behavior. How many warnings do you get before you get punished? A lifetime ban is stupid on a lot of levels but at least the TOs made the effort to show that cheating is unacceptable and has repercusions.
Just so you know hearsay is testimony that goes to the truth of the matter at hand. That's not what I was saying. I'm saying that people have stated that the person who was banned had been caught/warned at other events. I'm not making a judgement as to whether he was or was not cheating. If I had gone to the TO and told him that "I heard other people say that the player was cheating". That would be hearsay.
The LGO TO felt/feels that he was cheating. He took action. Some of the basis of his actions may have been based on the players history. I don't know the TO or anything about the player other than what has been posted. However, I do support his action as I presume that he is correct in his assertion of cheating and cheaters should be banned.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Prisons don’t fix anything. Better social programs and a more robust economy fixes crime rates.
SJ
They were quite effective when we hung people in public (and they soiled themselves in front of the whole town with their tongues bugging out) and when we had chain-gangs walking down the highway in July.
Humiliation has its merits, that's why we name the cheaters publicly.
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Leo_the_Rat wrote: Based on what others have said this person has been complained about at other events and, I presume, warned about his behavior. How many warnings do you get before you get punished? A lifetime ban is stupid on a lot of levels but at least the TOs made the effort to show that cheating is unacceptable and has repercusions.
An even better question is how someone like that gets this far, anyway.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: They were quite effective when we hung people in public (and they soiled themselves in front of the whole town with their tongues bugging out) and when we had chain-gangs walking down the highway in July.
Humiliation has its merits, that's why we name the cheaters publicly.
Wow, just... wow. If you actually believe this unironically it makes me seriously question the content of your character. Public humiliation is schoolyard bullying level garbage that doesn't belong in any kind of civilized criminal justice system, and don't even get me started on the court of public opinion name-and-shame lynch mobs for when people think the "system" hasn't gone hard enough.
The Salem witch trials sure did a good job of stopping those witches didn't they.
w1zard wrote: Wow, just... wow. If you actually believe this unironically it makes me seriously question the content of your character.
I honestly don't care what you think. Hit the 'report' button if it bothers you. I like how you said believing it makes me a bad person, but not wrong.
w1zard wrote: The Salem witch trials sure did a good job of stopping those witches didn't they.
You mean that extremely isolated event that was universally condemned by everyone outside the immediate area? Even the other churches?
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w1zard wrote: [
Wow, just... wow. If you actually believe this unironically it makes me seriously question the content of your character. Public humiliation is schoolyard bullying level garbage that doesn't belong in any kind of civilized criminal justice system, and don't even get me started on the court of public opinion name-and-shame lynch mobs for when people think the "system" hasn't gone hard enough.
Straw man argument (since you edited).
At no point did I mention anything about persons having an unfair trial or being executed by angry mobs. Please construct a relevant rebuttal.
I'm not going to start with you. I seriously don't think I can have a logical discussion with someone who genuinely believes that public hangings, forced labor, and psychological abuse (which is what public humiliation is) are justifiable forms of criminal justice.
w1zard wrote: I'm not going to start with you. I seriously don't think I can have a logical discussion with someone who genuinely believes that public hangings, forced labor, and psychological abuse (which is what public humiliation is) are justifiable forms of criminal justice.
I appreciate you sparing me the waste of time, then.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Just so you know hearsay is testimony that goes to the truth of the matter at hand. That's not what I was saying. I'm saying that people have stated that the person who was banned had been caught/warned at other events. I'm not making a judgement as to whether he was or was not cheating. If I had gone to the TO and told him that "I heard other people say that the player was cheating". That would be hearsay.
The LGO TO felt/feels that he was cheating. He took action. Some of the basis of his actions may have been based on the players history. I don't know the TO or anything about the player other than what has been posted. However, I do support his action as I presume that he is correct in his assertion of cheating and cheaters should be banned.
Okay then what you are basically saying is that if you read it on the internet it must be true. Remember that Abe Lincoln literally said "You can fool some of the people some of the time but you can't fool them all every time."
w1zard wrote: Disclaimer: I haven't watched the video, so I don't know if this dude actually cheated or not, but that is neither here nor there. They shouldn't be banning him for life unless they are absolutely 1,000% fething positive he was intentionally cheating. Even a 1% chance of giving a lifetime ban to a player for genuine mistakes is bad for the community, as we can see in this thread. A much better response would have been to DQ him and dock all of his points. That way if he was intentionally cheating, he doesn't benefit from it, while at the same time sending a message to the other players that loose play is not going to get you anywhere. Being hung over from staying up late and drinking the night before is stupid and warrants a DQ, but not a lifetime ban IMO.
But I wanted to say this:
jeffersonian000 wrote: Public shaming does not act as a deterrent, the people that get away with whatever they get away with have a habit of always trying the get away with it regardless of consequences because it’s a habit they find beneficial. That’s why prisons and executions have never been a deterrent towards crime. The people that shaming works on already have habits that avoid potential shaming, just like most people avoid criminal activity because they don’t want to get caught.
Is right on the money. As someone who has done academic research into criminal justice, overly harsh punishments do absolutely nothing at all to deter crime.
Example: A government wants to stop people from speeding on a highway. Hundreds of thousands of people use this highway every day and they don't have the officers to properly patrol it, so they decide to catch one speeder per day and publicly execute them to make an "example" of them. Would the knowledge that there is a .001% chance of being caught and executed stop people from speeding? Absolutely not, because the chances of being caught are so low that people can brush it off and say "I'm not going to get caught, those people who did were just really unlucky". The chances of getting in an accident from speeding and dying from THAT are higher than that anyway.
No what really gets people to stop breaking the rules is CATCHING them, ALL of them, and giving them a moderate punishment. This is backed up by large amounts of criminal justice research. Would you really attempt to break the rules if you knew you had a 95% chance of being caught doing it?
Dishing out harsh punishments to the people who you manage to catch only makes the community "feel better" without actually doing anything constructive, and makes it impossible for said offender to redeem themselves or reform.
I guarantee you that there was a lot more "cheating" going on at this event then Mr. Harrison's little shenanigans. Why is it fair that they all get away with it and he is punished collectively for all of their sins? The only difference between him and them is that he was supposedly "caught" and they weren't.
Yes it would make them stop breaking the law, totally, and I can prove it tomorrow if you want. Because the human mind has been scientifically proved to be ill suited to handle this kind of situation (low probability and high risk). I read something about it just yesterday
I don't think it's a Warhammer tournament's job to try to rehabilitate anyone. The also shouldn't have to let someone into their tournament if they think that person is a cheater. As other people have said, these aren't professional athletes. Yes, that means the standards can be lower - there's no drug test to worry about - but it also means a lifetime ban from a single tournament doesn't mean a whole lot. You're not banning a 40K player from his livelihood. He doesn't have to go on TV and apologize to the world.
I wouldn't play a pickup game against someone I suspected of cheating, and I'd rather play in a tournament that caught, named, and banned probable cheaters instead of keeping things secret.
Pink Horror wrote: I don't think it's a Warhammer tournament's job to try to rehabilitate anyone. The also shouldn't have to let someone into their tournament if they think that person is a cheater. As other people have said, these aren't professional athletes. Yes, that means the standards can be lower - there's no drug test to worry about - but it also means a lifetime ban from a single tournament doesn't mean a whole lot. You're not banning a 40K player from his livelihood. He doesn't have to go on TV and apologize to the world.
I wouldn't play a pickup game against someone I suspected of cheating, and I'd rather play in a tournament that caught, named, and banned probable cheaters instead of keeping things secret.
Again, I wasn't saying that it was the tourney's job to "rehabilitate" him or anything like that. All I'm saying is that unless they can 1,000% verifiably prove that he was cheating intentionally, that a lifetime ban is way overboard. I wouldn't like to attend a tournament who gave out lifetime bans to anyone they "suspected" of cheating because I'd be afraid of somehow screwing up and getting the life banhammer, it wouldn't be worth it. Getting DQed and losing all of his points would have been sufficient.
Hell, even at legit sporting events, athletes who test positive for steroids don't usually get lifetime bans unless it is a recurring issue. They are normally allowed to compete again once they test clean.
All I'm saying is that this whole concept of "be harsh to set an example" never really works, and just ends up being an injustice to the person being persecuted.
w1zard wrote: Hell, even at legit sporting events, athletes who test positive for steroids don't usually get lifetime bans unless it is a recurring issue. They are normally allowed to compete again once they test clean.
Sporting events where athletes are generating millions of dollars to participate. Now, find a high school or college athlete that gets caught juicing and watch that little sports dream hit the toilet quick.
w1zard wrote: All I'm saying is that this whole concept of "be harsh to set an example" never really works, and just ends up being an injustice to the person being persecuted.
I don't think a lifetime ban from something like a tournament for cheating is even 'harsh'. I do, however, think the humiliation from being labeled a cheater is justified.
They were quite effective when we hung people in public (and they soiled themselves in front of the whole town with their tongues bugging out) and when we had chain-gangs walking down the highway in July.
Humiliation has its merits, that's why we name the cheaters publicly.
Are you certain about that?
Spoiler:
What hangings and chain gangs did we institute since the 80s to bring the homicide rate down?
Daedalus81 wrote: What hangings and chain gangs did we institute since the 80s to bring the homicide rate down?
Since the 80's, we've improved crime fighting and prevention technology. (Also: Europe)
But when we got away from it, we cheated ourselves out of quality entertainment. Nothing more delightful than the family going to see the local pedo get strung up.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Just so you know hearsay is testimony that goes to the truth of the matter at hand. That's not what I was saying. I'm saying that people have stated that the person who was banned had been caught/warned at other events. I'm not making a judgement as to whether he was or was not cheating. If I had gone to the TO and told him that "I heard other people say that the player was cheating". That would be hearsay.
The LGO TO felt/feels that he was cheating. He took action. Some of the basis of his actions may have been based on the players history. I don't know the TO or anything about the player other than what has been posted. However, I do support his action as I presume that he is correct in his assertion of cheating and cheaters should be banned.
Okay then what you are basically saying is that if you read it on the internet it must be true. Remember that Abe Lincoln literally said "You can fool some of the people some of the time but you can't fool them all every time."
Then what you are saying is that unless you see it with your own eyes you don't believe. Newsflash Atoms exist.
You feel that the TOs overreacted. I don't. Neither means a hill of beans to the TO.
edit: Here is the true quotation that you are throwing around- "You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."
But when we got away from it, we cheated ourselves out of quality entertainment. Nothing more delightful than the family going to see the local pedo get strung up.
At this point, I'm starting to think you are just trolling for a reaction.
You would have actually hated the "olden days" of criminal justice. Most societies didn't even have prisons... the punishment for most crimes was usually a fine or a lashing, death was dealt out a lot more frequently than now but was still only reserved for the most serious of crimes. 90%+ of the time the perpetrator of a crime was never caught, and a lot of the time someone innocent was blamed.
w1zard wrote: Disclaimer: I haven't watched the video,
They shouldn't be banning him for life unless they are absolutely 1,000% fething positive he was intentionally cheating.
You should watch the video.
They are a private entity and may refuse service for any reason, including the mere suspicion of cheating.
Again, if tournaments start issuing lifetime bans to people they merely suspect of cheating, the 40k "professional" scene isn't going to be taken very seriously. It's too easy to bump a model, fudge a range measurement, forget a rule, or make a list mistake and then boom you're gone for good. Nobody will play, I know I wouldnt.
If you are concerned that they cheated but can't prove it 100% just DQ them and be done with it. No need to ban them for life over something that might have been an honest mistake.
w1zard wrote: Disclaimer: I haven't watched the video,
They shouldn't be banning him for life unless they are absolutely 1,000% fething positive he was intentionally cheating.
You should watch the video.
They are a private entity and may refuse service for any reason, including the mere suspicion of cheating.
Let’s put the proverbial shoe on the other foot John... what would you do if you were banned for life and publically ridiculed solely on the grounds of suspicion?
1) A private institution may ban someone for whatever reason they want, up to and including "we don't like him". They're not a public service, etc. So, they are well within their rights to do whatever they want - good on them.
2) To make it a public thing is tactless. This kind of information needs to go to the banned player and that's it. If he wants to scream and shout all over the internet that's fine. The guys running the tournament should have had a simple statement prepared like any other public announcement, something simple and vague when asked about it.
If the tournament doesn’t make the video, etc public and publicly defend their position then we end up with the player in question throwing out excuses and trying to humiliate the tournament. And if the goal is community development, then letting other tournaments (and players) know about a verified cheater is a smart thing to do.
w1zard wrote: Disclaimer: I haven't watched the video,
They shouldn't be banning him for life unless they are absolutely 1,000% fething positive he was intentionally cheating.
You should watch the video.
They are a private entity and may refuse service for any reason, including the mere suspicion of cheating.
Let’s put the proverbial shoe on the other foot John... what would you do if you were banned for life and publically ridiculed solely on the grounds of suspicion?
If I were a filthy of a cheater as that guy, I'd man up and accept it as long overdue, and I'd donate my armies and stuff to the community as penance.
w1zard wrote: Disclaimer: I haven't watched the video, so I don't know if this dude actually cheated or not, but that is neither here nor there. They shouldn't be banning him for life unless they are absolutely 1,000% fething positive he was intentionally cheating. Even a 1% chance of giving a lifetime ban to a player for genuine mistakes is bad for the community, as we can see in this thread. A much better response would have been to DQ him and dock all of his points. That way if he was intentionally cheating, he doesn't benefit from it, while at the same time sending a message to the other players that loose play is not going to get you anywhere. Being hung over from staying up late and drinking the night before is stupid and warrants a DQ, but not a lifetime ban IMO.
But I wanted to say this:
jeffersonian000 wrote: Public shaming does not act as a deterrent, the people that get away with whatever they get away with have a habit of always trying the get away with it regardless of consequences because it’s a habit they find beneficial. That’s why prisons and executions have never been a deterrent towards crime. The people that shaming works on already have habits that avoid potential shaming, just like most people avoid criminal activity because they don’t want to get caught.
Is right on the money. As someone who has done academic research into criminal justice, overly harsh punishments do absolutely nothing at all to deter crime.
Example: A government wants to stop people from speeding on a highway. Hundreds of thousands of people use this highway every day and they don't have the officers to properly patrol it, so they decide to catch one speeder per day and publicly execute them to make an "example" of them. Would the knowledge that there is a .001% chance of being caught and executed stop people from speeding? Absolutely not, because the chances of being caught are so low that people can brush it off and say "I'm not going to get caught, those people who did were just really unlucky". The chances of getting in an accident from speeding and dying from THAT are higher than that anyway.
No what really gets people to stop breaking the rules is CATCHING them, ALL of them, and giving them a moderate punishment. This is backed up by large amounts of criminal justice research. Would you really attempt to break the rules if you knew you had a 95% chance of being caught doing it?
Dishing out harsh punishments to the people who you manage to catch only makes the community "feel better" without actually doing anything constructive, and makes it impossible for said offender to redeem themselves or reform.
I guarantee you that there was a lot more "cheating" going on at this event then Mr. Harrison's little shenanigans. Why is it fair that they all get away with it and he is punished collectively for all of their sins? The only difference between him and them is that he was supposedly "caught" and they weren't.
Yes it would make them stop breaking the law, totally, and I can prove it tomorrow if you want. Because the human mind has been scientifically proved to be ill suited to handle this kind of situation (low probability and high risk). I read something about it just yesterday
They start handing out more bans (especially for slow play) and you'll see the competitive scene clean itself up quickly. Stay dq'ing people and they forfeit their entry and all the money wasted coming and they will stop being toolbags.
People arguing that they can do it is so so so dumb. Yeah, everyone knows they have full control over what they want to do with their own tournament.
Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.
We can quite easily make a distinction between what they are "allowed" to do, and which decisions they've made that we agree with.
I will never attend an event by these guys. Getting called out publicly as a cheater for an irrelevant mini bump to model with a glass, and for misremembering a die at the end of a long day, is not worth the drama for me. These TO's should feel ashamed, honestly.
SHUPPET wrote: I will never attend an event by these guys. Getting called out publicly as a cheater for an irrelevant mini bump to model with a glass, and for misremembering a die at the end of a long day, is not worth the drama for me. These TO's should feel ashamed, honestly.
SHUPPET wrote: I will never attend an event by these guys. Getting called out publicly as a cheater for an irrelevant mini bump to model with a glass, and for misremembering a die at the end of a long day, is not worth the drama for me. These TO's should feel ashamed, honestly.
Blatant Cheating. Obvious by watching the video.
watched the video. Both the stream, and then the cheating recap. Strongly disagree. Tau player's explanations make perfect sense, and at best we are left with suspicion of doubt here, nothing concrete, which is a poor justification for the action they took. I don't even share that doubt - this guy was not cheating. But the best you have, is suspicion that his actions were intentional and not accidental.
Pretending you have firm proof is just disingenuous. Stop treating this like a blood sport and hoping to see someone's rep in this game ruined for them. This is a very involved hobby, and to do something like this to someone with little care of the impact, you better be damn sure, which you were not.
SHUPPET wrote: Pretending you have firm proof is just disingenuous. Stop treating this like a blood sport and hoping to see someone's rep in this game ruined for them. This is a very involved hobby, and to do something like this to someone with little care of the impact, you better be damn sure, which you were not.
Sorry, are we watching the same video and reading the same TO's assessment? I'm 100% certain he was cheating.
I don't care if he can't play again. I have zero sympathy for a player who cheats. Now one's executing him in public square, taking his money, ore removing his models.
Stop pretending it was a happy little accident. It's a game, and people who cheat should be exposed.
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greyknight12 wrote: If the tournament doesn’t make the video, etc public and publicly defend their position then we end up with the player in question throwing out excuses and trying to humiliate the tournament. And if the goal is community development, then letting other tournaments (and players) know about a verified cheater is a smart thing to do.
That. And that stuff is exactly why the Jeremy Hamblin thing went so far. Apparently, without gathering evidence and making certain things public- it can quickly devolve into a 'he-said, she-said' and then divide the community.
w1zard wrote: Again, if tournaments start issuing lifetime bans to people they merely suspect of cheating, the 40k "professional" scene isn't going to be taken very seriously. It's too easy to bump a model, fudge a range measurement, forget a rule, or make a list mistake and then boom you're gone for good. Nobody will play, I know I wouldnt.
If that video evidence alone isn't enough to convince you, then please don't ever get on a jury. We'll have killers back on the streets.
w1zard wrote: If you are concerned that they cheated but can't prove it 100% just DQ them and be done with it. No need to ban them for life over something that might have been an honest mistake.
'Polite warnings' didn't work. Disqualifications didn't work. He got banned from ONE tournament scene. Not all of them. And he shouldn't have made it this for.
The evidence is there. WATCH IT.
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w1zard wrote: And if you weren't a cheater and you did just genuinely make a few mistakes during play that simply looked like cheating under the right lens?
If I weren't a cheater I wouldn't have the video evidence proving I was cheating. Or the track record.
And if I wasn't, and was being accused of it during the game? After the first warning I'd say, "Fine, you're accusing me of cheating so I forfeit" and I would move on with my gaming.
SHUPPET wrote: Pretending you have firm proof is just disingenuous. Stop treating this like a blood sport and hoping to see someone's rep in this game ruined for them. This is a very involved hobby, and to do something like this to someone with little care of the impact, you better be damn sure, which you were not.
Sorry, are we watching the same video and reading the same TO's assessment? I'm 100% certain he was cheating.
I don't care if he can't play again. I have zero sympathy for a player who cheats. Now one's executing him in public square, taking his money, ore removing his models.
Stop pretending it was a happy little accident. It's a game, and people who cheat should be exposed.
The only one who's pretending they know something they don't here, is you. Of course you don't care or have any sympathy, it doesn't affect you, so why would you, right? You've gotten to take the moral highground and act self righteous about something, and gotten the thrill of seeing someone torn apart in the chat sections. Being ACTUALLY sure about what happened could potentially get in the way of this, so why waste time on that?
Let's just condemn him for bumping a model, forgetting a dice, and mistaking a measurement. HE IS FOR SURE A CHEATER AND I KNOW THIS 100%!!
No. You don't. You said it best, they aren't executing him in public so you just don't care, this is just good drama for you to lap up.
I've never played a game that didn't have at least as many tiny mistakes, and these guys were at the end of a long, very poorly accommodated day.
Geoff made a BUNCH of mismeasures himself. He also said that you had to draw line of sight to a models base. He accidentally re-rolled extra dice where he shouldn't have multiple times, and pushed some models too far in movement. He also had a bunch of screws with cards, forgetting to draw cards on the previous game, messed up the re-drawing of cards, misused his stratagem to draw from the wrong place, etc. This is just the kind of thing that happens in 40k.
You'd know all this if you had read his explanation, and also ACTUALLY watched the stream. But you didn't, you watched a 2 minute clip focusing on one player's mistakes, and now are "100% sure" he was cheating.
Let's not forget the comments from people more familiar with the local community that this guy had a reputation for cheating. That puts things in a very different context and makes the excuses for all these "mistakes" a lot less convincing.
If that video evidence alone isn't enough to convince you, then please don't ever get on a jury. We'll have killers back on the streets.
'Polite warnings' didn't work. Disqualifications didn't work. He got banned from ONE tournament scene. Not all of them. And he shouldn't have made it this for.
The evidence is there. WATCH IT.
I have watched it. I actually had to rewatch it because I missed where he bumped the model with his water cup. It could be argued that it was intentional, but I also know that I've actually done the exact same thing on accident while playing so that isn't conclusive evidence of cheating.
Also forgetting to discard cards? I can't tell you how many times both me and my opponent have done that. It also isn't conclusive evidence of cheating.
The only thing that looked even remotely fishy to me was the wound counter thing, and even then I can't tell you how many times I've picked up my opponents dice on accident to roll, usually it's a non issue.
Also, his "prior history" of cheating is not only unverified hearsay, but completely irrelevant to this case, right here, right now.
I sincerely hope YOU are never placed on a jury because you are supposed to PRESUME fething innocence, and not have a preconcieved notion of guilt that you seek to confirm with the evidence. Even if you are pretty fething sure this person is guilty ITS NOT ENOUGH, you need evidence BEYOND reasonable doubt, which IMO hasn't been met here.
tripchimeras wrote: No one knows the rules to a GW game as well as they think they do...
I still have no idea when I have to declare FTGG for each squad. Is it all units after they declare the charge or can I go one unit at a time until they're wiped out? I can't find anywhere that says when it has to be declared to fire. "When an enemy unit declares a charge, a unit with this ability that is within 6" of one of the charging unit's targets may fire Overwatch as if they were also targeted. A unit that does so cannot fire Overwatch again in this turn." Rather than risk it, I'd be going unit by unit like I would in the shooting phase and not declaring all my units at once.
That dude cheated. He as trying to be all super ninja squirrel with his water glass. But there is no please don't bypass the language filter like this. Reds8n way you can pick up a glass full with water and place it down deliberately and in a controlled and slow motion while holding the glass with your hand push outward hard enough to move a large top heavy model enough without noticing you moved a large top heavy model. And then quickly pull your glass back and pretend nothing happened all the while your opponent was distracted moving his models on his turn. Again this wasn’t an accidental bump this was a push outward.
The only excuse he has was what did he gain out of moving his model. None of us are mind readers. I don’t care if he thought he was blocking line of sight, I don’t care if he thought someone was going to shoot at it, or pushing the models together so nothing could fit between them to assault. Really it doesn’t matter what was going through his head at that moment all that matters is he deliberately cheated.
I honestly don’t know how you can defend that move it’s abot as blatant as someone rolling dice saying they hit on a 1 and quickly picking up thier dice so their opponent didn’t see and getting caught on camera lying kinda obvious cheating which he’s also basically did as well with his tau rules manipulation nonsense.
The only one who's pretending they know something they don't here, is you. Of course you don't care or have any sympathy, it doesn't affect you, so why would you, right? You've gotten to take the moral highground and act self righteous about something, and gotten the thrill of seeing someone torn apart in the chat sections. Being ACTUALLY sure about what happened could potentially get in the way of this, so why waste time on that?
I am taking the moral high ground. Because I'm not a cheater. He gets no sympathy from me, because clearly not only does the video evidence tell me he was cheating- but every judge reviewed this video evidence and determined he is a cheater.
Dude, if I 'accidentally' bumped some chick's boob the way he 'accidentally' bumped that model with the glass I'd be in prison already. It's blatantly obvious.
SHUPPET wrote: Let's just condemn him for bumping a model, forgetting a dice, and mistaking a measurement. HE IS FOR SURE A CHEATER AND I KNOW THIS 100%!!
No. You don't. You said it best, they aren't executing him in public so you just don't care, this is just good drama for you to lap up.
It's not an execution. It's being barred from playing toy soldiers in one tournament circuit. Please, dude- stop exaggerating.
SHUPPET wrote: I've never played a game that didn't have at least as many tiny mistakes, and these guys were at the end of a long, very poorly accommodated day.
You're not playing against professionals, and honestly I think if that many 'mistakes' are being made the same way you're in a den of cheaters.
SHUPPET wrote: Geoff made a BUNCH of mismeasures himself. He also said that you had to draw line of sight to a models base. He accidentally re-rolled extra dice where he shouldn't have multiple times, and pushed some models too far in movement. He also had a bunch of screws with cards, forgetting to draw cards on the previous game, messed up the re-drawing of cards, misused his stratagem to draw from the wrong place, etc. This is just the kind of thing that happens in 40k.
Evidence, please.
SHUPPET wrote: You'd know all this if you had read his explanation, and also ACTUALLY watched the stream. But you didn't, you watched a 2 minute clip focusing on one player's mistakes, and now are "100% sure" he was cheating.
The guy who got cheating on video isn't what I consider an honest, unbiased opinion on whether or not he cheated.
Looks a lot more like crying to me. You're acting like we're putting a rope around his neck and condemning him in town square.
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w1zard wrote: I have watched it. I actually had to rewatch it because I missed where he bumped the model with his water cup. It could be argued that it was intentional, but I also know that I've actually done the exact same thing on accident while playing so that isn't conclusive evidence of cheating.
If that looked 'accidental' to you, then by all means I'd like to 'accidentally' get my hands near your wallet. I hope you'll be as forgiving, and I hope there's enough there to get me some Zone Mortalis terrain.
SHUPPET wrote: Also, his "prior history" of cheating is not only unverified hearsay, but completely irrelevant to this case, right here, right now.
It's called 'establishing a pattern'. Kind of crucial in literally any investigation.
SHUPPET wrote: I sincerely hope YOU are never placed on a jury because you are supposed to PRESUME fething innocence, and not have a preconcieved notion of guilt that you seek to confirm with the evidence. Even if you are pretty fething sure this person is guilty ITS NOT ENOUGH, you need evidence BEYOND reasonable doubt, which IMO hasn't been met here.
Well, it was enough for a multitude of people involved in judging this thing. Not enough for you. And your opinion is not important.
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Peregrine wrote: Let's not forget the comments from people more familiar with the local community that this guy had a reputation for cheating. That puts things in a very different context and makes the excuses for all these "mistakes" a lot less convincing.
Of note, and if I'm not mistaken- that reputation preceded his participation in the LGT.
Peregrine wrote: Let's not forget the comments from people more familiar with the local community that this guy had a reputation for cheating. That puts things in a very different context and makes the excuses for all these "mistakes" a lot less convincing.
That's not verifiable evidence, and if this was something we take into account then he shouldn't have been allowed to compete.
He's one of the best players in his scene (clearly to do as well as he did at this big event). This often causes salt, especially amongst the lesser competitive members, as well as some of the WAAC jerks. I have never (intentionally) cheated once in my life. Guarantee if I was up in the stocks like he is right now, there would be a bunch of salty losers coming out of the wordworks "verifying" that I cheat, remembering that one time i accidentally brushed a model over or got a rule wrong, to help them self-validate their losses. We see this all the time when people lose, they reach for anything they can to justify it, including balance, "cheap" tactics, "rules lawyering", whatever lets them get out of admitting they were beaten by a better player. I don't find this to be at all relevant in establishing whether or not he definitively cheated. We can SEE the game.
I got as far as the first sentence. Be honest - has anyone EVER responded to a post you've written like this? Reformat it to something somewhat readable instead of a quote inserted between every single sentence. I doubt anyone is reading it like this.
w1zard wrote: Also, his "prior history" of cheating is not only unverified hearsay, but completely irrelevant to this case, right here, right now.
Of course it's relevant. Events don't happen in isolation, and when you're asking to give someone the benefit of the doubt it really matters if they're a person with a reputation for fair play and no prior cheating incidents or a person everyone already suspects has cheated previously even if on-camera proof hasn't been available.
Even if you are pretty fething sure this person is guilty ITS NOT ENOUGH, you need evidence BEYOND reasonable doubt, which IMO hasn't been met here.
Nope. This is not a criminal jury trial. This is a private organization deciding who to invite to their private events. There is zero obligation to use any standard beyond "we feel like banning this guy".
Peregrine wrote: Nope. This is not a criminal jury trial. This is a private organization deciding who to invite to their private events. There is zero obligation to use any standard beyond "we feel like banning this guy".
And you know, I used to be on Jeremy's side in the 'Magicgate' thing (until I dug a LOT deeper). Even though I think what was done was a bit extreme, I have always believed that a private group does have the right to ban someone for whatever they want- and accept the backlash with it.
Fair is fair. I've been to a tournament that banned a guy that wasn't even cheating, but had a lousy attitude about winning. No trial. No jury. Just the TO's saying "nope".
Also, if someone has a 'reputation' I'll still give them the benefit of the doubt. But if you tell me, "Watch out, Johnny Sneak likes to bump models with his soda can and fudge wound counters when you're not looking" and I catch him doing that exact thing? It's highly unlikely that someone was making up lies about Johnny Sneak and I coincidentally doing exactly that the first time he'd ever done so, and by accident.
SHUPPET wrote: That's not verifiable evidence, and if this was something we take into account then he shouldn't have been allowed to compete.
I'm sorry, but in exactly what part of the world is video evidence showing someone doing an exact and specific action not 'verifiable evidence'? What more do you require? A confession?
Wait, you have video evidence validating the rumors of him cheating BEFORE THIS EVENT, at his local community? Please, do share! Because that's literally the only thing that I said wasn't verifiable evidence?
SHUPPET wrote: He's one of the best players in his scene (clearly to do as well as he did at this big event). This often causes salt, especially amongst the lesser competitive members, as well as some of the WAAC jerks. I have never (intentionally) cheated once in my life. Guarantee if I was up in the stocks like he is right now, there would be a bunch of salty losers coming out of the wordworks "verifying" that I cheat, remembering that one time i accidentally brushed a model over or got a rule wrong, to help them self-validate their losses. We see this all the time when people lose, they reach for anything they can to justify it, including balance, "cheap" tactics, "rules lawyering", whatever lets them get out of admitting they were beaten by a better player. I don't find this to be at all relevant in establishing whether or not he definitively cheated. We can SEE the game.
...are you that guy? Because you're awfully defensive, to the point of doing mental gymnastics?
"Yeah man they just conspired against him because he is so good. And also handsome. And awesome!"
His OPPONENT, and NO ONE HE PLAYED AGAINST at this event was accusing him of cheating without evidence. This was done by judges and the TO. The people hosting it. And I highly doubt they got together and said, "You know what? That guy's too good. Let's lie about him and screw him over at the last game. Because mustache-twirling reasons!"
Wait, you now have information on who and how many people made this decision? Can you share this too?
Are you a guy who lost to him? Cause you seem awfully quick to condemn him, with more baseless assumptions being thrown out in every post you make.
You call this mental gymnastics, yet it's PROVEN human behaviour, that many people have a very strong NEED to find excuses for failure - just like you are doing right now in this argument you are losing, when you call a scientifically researched phenomena "mental gymnastics" just because it disagrees with you.
We know exactly what the decision was based on - the guy who posted it made a write up. So we have all the evidence he used when we say that it's a flimsy decision.
I got as far as the first sentence. Because I don't have an argument.
Is that better?
If that was the case I wouldn't have responded to your nonsense at all. But just like all garbage, when you shine a the torch on it, it's hard to mistake it for anything that was wanted. If you had a real argument you wouldn't need to respond in a way that is literally having to take every single sentence of context of the post, dissect it and try to dismantle it, I glance at something like that and I already know it's going to be a waste of time. You write your posts in an unreadable way, don't be surprised when people don't read it.
Wait, you now have information on who and how many people made this decision? Can you share this too?
Are you a guy who lost to him? Cause you seem awfully quick to condemn him, with more baseless assumptions being thrown out in every post you make.
We know exactly what the decision was based on - the guy who posted it made a write up.
Dude, who the hell exactly did you think made the decision? The janitor? A few random hobos outside? Matt Ward on a coke bender?
Seriously, fess up- are you one of his buddies? Are you him? No sane person without a clear case of fanboyism or being that guy would be this defensive.
A 'baseless accusation' doesn't have video evidence. In fact, that's what we call a pretty solid accusation with evidence supporting it. If this WERE a criminal trial, he would be trying to make a plea deal because he has no defense at all. Zero.
If that was the case I wouldn't have responded to your nonsense at all. But just like all garbage, when you shine a the torch on it, it's hard to mistake it for anything that was wanted. If you had a real argument you wouldn't need to respond in a way that is literally having to take every single sentence of context of the post, dissect it and try to dismantle it, I glance at something like that and I already know it's going to be a waste of time. You write your posts in an unreadable way, don't be surprised when people don't read it.
If that is 'unreadable' then I'm starting to understand why blatant video evidence wasn't enough for you. You really need to see an optometrist.
So, basically you have no argument. You've resorting to 'You made too many words for me to see'. Yeah, that's what I expected.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Those aren't "a few mistakes" - that's outright, blatant cheating.
Our friends above seem to be convinced that 'confessed intent' is the determining factor. So I'll say it like this, the guy is one of two things:
1- A Cheater.
2- The most convenient clutz in the professional tier, who is so comically clumsy and inattentive that he just happens to screw up in a way that works in his favor multiple times and should STILL be banned for being such a clutz.
Wait, you now have information on who and how many people made this decision? Can you share this too?
Are you a guy who lost to him? Cause you seem awfully quick to condemn him, with more baseless assumptions being thrown out in every post you make.
We know exactly what the decision was based on - the guy who posted it made a write up.
Dude, who the hell exactly did you think made the decision? The janitor? A few random hobos outside? Matt Ward on a coke bender?
Seriously, fess up- are you one of his buddies? Are you him? No sane person without a clear case of fanboyism or being that guy would be this defensive.
A 'baseless accusation' doesn't have video evidence. In fact, that's what we call a pretty solid accusation with evidence supporting it. If this WERE a criminal trial, he would be trying to make a plea deal because he has no defense at all. Zero.
If that was the case I wouldn't have responded to your nonsense at all. But just like all garbage, when you shine a the torch on it, it's hard to mistake it for anything that was wanted. If you had a real argument you wouldn't need to respond in a way that is literally having to take every single sentence of context of the post, dissect it and try to dismantle it, I glance at something like that and I already know it's going to be a waste of time. You write your posts in an unreadable way, don't be surprised when people don't read it.
If that is 'unreadable' then I'm starting to understand why blatant video evidence wasn't enough for you. You really need to see an optometrist.
So, basically you have no argument. You've resorting to 'You made too many words for me to see'. Yeah, that's what I expected.
How ironic. I responded to every single post in its entirety, other than the one post that was formatted like a 3 year old was hitting the enter key everytime you stopped to breath, so you filled in the gaps by quoting each. and. every. single sentence individually in my post. Which shouldn't surprise you. Nobody reads those posts.
You on the other hand are being extremely selective in your reading. You just ignored the parts of my post that you didn't have a response to, like the fact that you don't actually have any verifiable video evidence of him cheating before this event as you just claimed. Or the fact that you implied that people don't grasp bs excuses for losing, and called it "mental gymnastics for me to say so", and then ignored my response saying that this is psychologically proven human behaviour? lol.
I'm out. Some people are frothing at the mouth for this guy to get his comeuppance, and I've said my piece. This argument is pointless, you aren't even making sense anymore, just looking for a quick "gotcha!" with every post to try and say I don't have an argument. You tried. Have a good one.
SHUPPET wrote: How ironic. I responded to every single post in its entirety, other than the one post that was formatted like a 3 year old was hitting the enter key everytime you stopped to breath, so you filled in the gaps by quoting each. and. every. single sentence individually in my post. Which shouldn't surprise you. Nobody reads those posts.
[Citation needed]
SHUPPET wrote: You on the other hand are being extremely selective in your reading.
SHUPPET wrote: Or the fact that you implied that people don't grasp bs excuses for losing, and called it "mental gymnastics for me to say so", and then ignored my response saying that this is psychologically proven human behaviour? lol.
You're turning an observed thing into a nonsense argument. Yes, it's a proven fact that some people will grasp desperately for any answer besides "I lost to a better player", but that doesn't mean that it applies to this situation. If it's about excuses for losing then why are people like me, who have never played against the guy or even heard of him before this cheating incident, supporting a ban? Why hasn't the second-place player, who beat a similar number of people in the process of getting to the top table, received the same jealousy and excuses in the form of cheating accusations and calls for a ban? Why has this one player, out of all of the competitive players and all of the games they have won, been singled out like this? You have two choices:
1) He is such a successful and elite god of 40k that he inspires jealousy beyond anyone else, and everyone is truly out to get him.
or
2) He already had a reputation of being a dirty player, a reputation not shared by other players at the top tables, and so when he was finally caught cheating on camera his excuses were not credible.
I think we both know which is the more plausible explanation here.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Those aren't "a few mistakes" - that's outright, blatant cheating.
Our friends above seem to be convinced that 'confessed intent' is the determining factor. So I'll say it like this, the guy is one of two things:
1- A Cheater.
2- The most convenient clutz in the professional tier, who is so comically clumsy and inattentive that he just happens to screw up in a way that works in his favor multiple times and should STILL be banned for being such a clutz.
Indeed. I can accept the occasional mistake as something that gets corrected (and generously), but fast rolling and poor measurement that I can't verify are automatic red flags.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Indeed. I can accept the occasional mistake as something that gets corrected (and generously), but fast rolling and poor measurement that I can't verify are automatic red flags.
There's also this: We all make mistakes. The thing is, when we make mistakes, we correct them. Even if they are in our favor or not in our favor. When you argue with a judge about a blatant 'mistake' that just so happens to work in your favor, it's showing guilt.
Dude, the thing with the water cup is comical. It wasn't a 'bump', it was a 'push'. A very obvious 'push' complete with resistance and friction and everything. Ever seen Anchorman, when Champ Kind is trying to pick up Veronica and rubs all over her chest? "Oops, sorry 'bout that, whammy..." It was about as 'accidental' and even more obvious than that.
SHUPPET wrote: Or the fact that you implied that people don't grasp bs excuses for losing, and called it "mental gymnastics for me to say so", and then ignored my response saying that this is psychologically proven human behaviour? lol.
You're turning an observed thing into a nonsense argument. Yes, it's a proven fact that some people will grasp desperately for any answer besides "I lost to a better player", but that doesn't mean that it applies to this situation. If it's about excuses for losing then why are people like me, who have never played against the guy or even heard of him before this cheating incident, supporting a ban? Why hasn't the second-place player, who beat a similar number of people in the process of getting to the top table, received the same jealousy and excuses in the form of cheating accusations and calls for a ban? Why has this one player, out of all of the competitive players and all of the games they have won, been singled out like this?
What? I'm not saying it definitely applies here. I'm saying it's entirely possible he cheated before, but it's also entirely possible he hasn't, and I gave some very plausible reasons that people would say that he had even if he hadn't. But I don't know for a fact, and neither do you, which is exactly why I'm saying we can't take it into account. Citing it as though random unverified claims of cheating for anyone should hold some sort weight in dealing with a game we have video recording of from start to finish, is just a mob justice mentality.
Why was he singled out? Plenty of possibilities. Most people seem to think because of the TERRIBLE reception this tournament recieved, the TO is trying to shift focus a little, and this being the end game match as well as one fully on camera, this is the one people are most likely to care about and get the most attention. You think anyone would care this much if it was some guy at the bottom of the pool, playing some random? This was the finale, against InControl, probably the most famous player this game has outside of someone like Vin Diesel or something. As well as being the final game thus having the most mistake to justify it. This wasn't going to work if they wanted to crucify Geoff, even though he made a similar amount of mistakes, the other guy was the easy scapegoat.
It's irrelevant. The argument "if he didn't cheat than why was he singled out as a cheater by the TO's", isn't a valid response to people pointing out that we don't have evidence of him cheating. The accusation is not evidence in itself.
1) He is such a successful and elite god of 40k that he inspires jealousy beyond anyone else, and everyone is truly out to get him.
or
2) He already had a reputation of being a dirty player, a reputation not shared by other players at the top tables, and so when he was finally caught cheating on camera his excuses were not credible.
I think we both know which is the more plausible explanation here.
That first one is not what I said at all, and is deliberately rewritten to sound as absurd as possible.
Here's the two choices:
1. He does cheat and people are being honest in saying so
2. He doesn't cheat and yet some people who have lost to this guy and are salty about, or looking for some personal validation for their losses, or just dislike the guy, or genuinely saw him doing something similar to this (an irrelevant bump to a model for pete's sake), or any other number of potential reasons, have come forth to validate him as cheating.
How many people even came out so far and said he is known for cheating, wasn't it like one other person afaik? I've seen more than that saying they play against him and that he DOESN'T cheat.
Both seem equally as plausible to me. Even if they weren't, both are most definitely possible, and pretty sketchy to say that its relevant information to a video'd game. If you need to use evidence like this to make a decision - then you don't have enough evidence at all.
This is the flimsiest sort of thing to take into account when trying to determine whether someone cheated or not.
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Man I wish I were a klutz of that luck level so I could be a regular Domino.
His response on the matter: I apparently knock my Hammerhead forwards slightly with my water cup. So, IF this was intentional (which it was not) what has this gained me? I have nothing INFRONT to overwatch? We learned that the Hammerhead can’t overwatch (more on that later) so what does this gain me? His shield captain flew to the left right next to the hammerhead, so what am I cheating here? It baffles me that this is a thing, models get knocked throughout the event but you gotta watch out for those water cups, they are dangerous!
What exactly are you trying to say was the benefit here?
1. He does cheat and people are being honest in saying so
2. He doesn't cheat and yet some people who have lost to this guy and are salty about, or looking for some personal validation for their losses, or just dislike the guy, or genuinely saw him doing something similar to this (an irrelevant bump to a model for pete's sake), or any other number of potential reasons, have come forth to validate him as cheating.
Yeah, an 'irrelevant' bump that was actually a push that moved his model into better cover.
No, you're right, man. It's a total conspiracy made up for no reason at all. Everyone there conspired against him, every opponent and judge and the TO conspired to ensure he lost the game. Because he was -so awesome-. See that cool guy there? Can't have him win. Let's make sure it doesn't happen, boys. Remember, no Russian.
Tell me about the chemtrails makin' the frogs gay.
1. He does cheat and people are being honest in saying so
2. He doesn't cheat and yet some people who have lost to this guy and are salty about, or looking for some personal validation for their losses, or just dislike the guy, or genuinely saw him doing something similar to this (an irrelevant bump to a model for pete's sake), or any other number of potential reasons, have come forth to validate him as cheating.
Yeah, an 'irrelevant' bump that was actually a push that moved his model into better cover.
No, you're right, man. It's a total conspiracy made up for no reason at all. Everyone there conspired against him, every opponent and judge and the TO conspired to ensure he lost the game.
Tell me about the chemtrails makin' the frogs gay.
Yeah, you ask for an explanation to why someone would do something like that, and then when you get one, you play an absurdist role towards me, for giving that explanation of the motivations someone might have in calling some a cheater that isn't.
Have you ever worked as a judge before? I have. If there was multiple judges, I guarantee every single one of them was not consulted here. Either the judge that was witness to this game, or simply just the TO himself running it past someone else involved in organizing the event, is almost assuredly the amount of people whose opinions were taken into account here, in my opinion. However, unlike you I won't state this as a fact - BECAUSE NEITHER OF US KNOW. You are using an invented mass of people, and using their numbers as validation of these accusations being undeniable. Do you actually have any source on the amount of people who claimed he cheated? So far I've seen one statement from one person who made this decision, and one statement from someone else in a comment section say he has a "rep" for it, who for all we know might just be parroting something else he read in some other comment section. If there's info I've missed please let me know, I've read through all the reddit posts, but haven't read this thread in it's entirety, so its entirely possible I missed something, but if not, please stop pretending that you know there's this cabinet of people each who had first hand knowledge of the game and some throng of people who played against him, all coming together to state his guilt. And even if there was, none of it makes him any less or more guilty - you seem to be misunderstanding what verifiable evidence actually is.
False accusations of cheating happen all the time. Avilo just a got an official warning from Blizzard for justifying his losses with cheating accusations. I've seen it happen first hand in tabletop tournaments. And the second it comes out as a possibility, like in a public statement like this, you bet your ass - there'd be someone somewhere saying YOU'VE cheated against them before as well, Dorito. Hell, I'd come out and say it myself, simply because I don't particularly like you and think it would be funny for you to have to deal with this same heat. See how unverifiable that gak is?
SHUPPET wrote: I'm out. Some people are frothing at the mouth for this guy to get his comeuppance, and I've said my piece. This argument is pointless, you aren't even making sense anymore, just looking for a quick "gotcha!" with every post to try and say I don't have an argument. You tried. Have a good one.
And yet here you still are, continuing to argue. It's like this whole "you suck, I'm done" dramatic exit was pure theater, and not even particularly well done?
SHUPPET wrote: I'm out. Some people are frothing at the mouth for this guy to get his comeuppance, and I've said my piece. This argument is pointless, you aren't even making sense anymore, just looking for a quick "gotcha!" with every post to try and say I don't have an argument. You tried. Have a good one.
And yet here you still are, continuing to argue. It's like this whole "you suck, I'm done" dramatic exit was pure theater, and not even particularly well done?
You quote a post from I made BEFORE that statement, literally demanding answers to questions, and then when I answer those questions, you respond like this?
You're not even the guy I said that to, or the argument I was having when I said it. I literally said that to Doritos, because he (and specifically just him) was responding in that argument with stupid "gotcha" lines in every post and blatantly didn't have anything new to add.
Now you're doing the exact same thing? Lol.
You guys are hilarious. The bloodthirst here is real. Can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
w1zard wrote: Also, his "prior history" of cheating is not only unverified hearsay, but completely irrelevant to this case, right here, right now.
Of course it's relevant. Events don't happen in isolation, and when you're asking to give someone the benefit of the doubt it really matters if they're a person with a reputation for fair play and no prior cheating incidents or a person everyone already suspects has cheated previously even if on-camera proof hasn't been available.
It's irrelevant because it is unverifiable... I can have a bad reputation and be completely undeserving of it, and vice versa. Just because there is "talk among local players that he has done this kind of thing before" means absolutely nothing beyond rumor mongering.
It's true that a private event can ban anyone for any reason. I'm saying that in my opinion they don't have a valid reason for banning him for life. I don't even think the video "evidence" being shown is undeniable, irrefutable evidence of intentional cheating. I think the video shows behavior that can be construed as cheating under the right lens, but can be equally ascribed to very loose play.
Did he cheat intentionally? Possibly. Should he be banned for life for the possibility of cheating intentionally? No. Should his "reputation" have any effect on the outcome of this decision? No.
It's fine that they are concerned about some of the behaviors he demonstrated in the final match. But they should have DQed him and docked all of his points instead of banning him for life and putting him on pillory in front of the community. It accomplishes the same thing without stigmatizing him for life for something that very well could have been unintentional.
It's also hilarious that people seem to thing he was the only person there playing like this. I bet you all the money in my bank account that this kind of stuff was happening on almost every table. Why is Mr. Harrison the only one to get a lifetime ban for it?
SHUPPET wrote: Yeah, you ask for an explanation to why someone would do something like that, and then when you get one, you play an absurdist role towards me, for giving that explanation of the motivations someone might have in calling some a cheater that isn't.
Oh, it's pretty absurd.
[Almost odd that all of these people conspiring against him managed to get lucky the exact moment he was doing things that look exactly like cheating. It'd be like me accusing you of shoplifting the exact moment you decided you wanted to warm up a Codex under your sweater while you took it outside for fresh air.
Who are all these people? Once again you ignore all but a single sentence in the entire post because you can't answer to stronger logic. So source me these people you keep referring to, if you haven't just made them up entirely. Because nobody has seen any of them yet. So I'm going to make my post about nothing other than this so you can't dodge it anymore if you choose to respond to me.
You're attributing this statement to a made up number of people, and using this made up number as a strength in numbers argument to drive home your point. Feel free to prove me wrong. I'd like to see this information you have, and if you can source this statement of his guilt being made by every judge at the event, plus the TO, plus InControl himself, plus literally every other opponent he had that day, plus confirming for me exactly how many people from outside this event have accused him of cheating. This isn't just some arbitrary list of people I'm having you source. This is all the people you have cited. So please, source your currently empty statements, because as it stands I know of a statement from ONE t.o., and one other guy on Reddit who didn't even witness any cheating himself. It's possible you seen stuff I haven't, so please fill me in, or admit you are just rabid to see this guy go down, lol.
w1zard wrote: It's also hilarious that people seem to thing he was the only person there playing like this. I bet you all the money in my bank account that this kind of stuff was happening on almost every table. Why is Mr. Harrison the only one to get a lifetime ban for it?
If anything, people are passionate about this one because we already KNOW it happens on other tables (though not even close to every one). To finally have a tournament take action after NOVA and Adepticon have essentially handwaved away incorrect lists and watching blatant slow play+bad sportsmanship on the top tables at LVO it’s refreshing to see cheating getting dealt with.
It’s not like the guy can’t come back, Kenny Boucher won a tournament with loaded dice, got banned, and is again part of the community through his painting tutorials. Being banned for life might be extreme, but after inaction for years I’d personally rather see an overreaction to blatant, video-taped cheating than doing nothing.
Who are all these people? Once again you ignore all but a single sentence in the entire post because you can't answer to stronger logic. So source me these people you keep referring to, if you haven't just made them up entirely. Because nobody has seen any of them yet. So I'm going to make my post about nothing other than this so you can't dodge it anymore if you choose to respond to me.
They're judges and TO's. Again, who the hell do you think calls this shot- the hobo out back? People he lost to? Do you think some random moron could just say, "He cheated!" and the entire tournament staff just said, "OK!" I don't think you're understanding how this works and you're really grasping at straws.
This statement was released by the people hosting the LGT. I don't know what more you mean.
Look, dude- I'll be 100% honest with you, I'm starting to think this argument is hitting a little too close to home with you. I'm not sure what you're seeing it, you really seem to be downplaying it and handwaving it off when the evidence, on freaking VIDEO, shows it. I'm curious as to what your local meta is like, and I'm pretty sure if this is considered 'okay' in your eyes then it's a toxic situation.
Your argument's 'logic':
"Who are judges, really? And people get falsely accused of cheating, everyone could have just up and conspired against this guy because he was too awesome. I mean, you can't prove that blatant pushing of a model into full cover was intentional."
SHUPPET wrote: Really? You two seem like a match made in heaven to me. I guess similarities are prone to clash.
Yeah. We get together and do naked butt stuff on the weekend. You've got to be pretty wrong for me and Peregrine to BOTH call you out on it.
I bet you all the money in my bank account plenty of other dudes have drugged and raped chicks. Why's Bill Cosby the only one going to jail for it?
Because he got caught.
This isn't that difficult, fellas.
Anyone who intentionally drugs and rapes someone deserves prison time, so we give it to them when we can catch them.
But, I don't think accidentally bumping a model or picking up a wound counter deserves a lifetime ban.
I'm going to be arbitrary here and say that 1/4 to 1/3 of all players at the tournament were playing as "loose" as Mr. Harrison was. I genuinely believe that is about the right amount btw. Do you honestly believe that a third of the entire tournament's attendees should be banned for life for bumping a model, forgetting a rule, or picking up a wound counter whether intentional or not?
Your analogy would be more accurate if a quarter to a third of the adult Male population were rapists, and Bill Cosby was getting an much harsher sentence then "normal" rapist would get, AND also there were still serious doubts as to his innocence/guilt.
(The Bill Cosby case is just the analogy being used, I don't want to get into the facts of that case.)
w1zard wrote: But, I don't think accidentally bumping a model or picking up a wound counter deserves a lifetime ban.
Neither do I, but let's recap- he didn't 'bump' a model, he blatantly pushed the damned thing into cover.
He didn't 'pick up a wound counter', he changed it from 5 down to 3.
He also lied about trading out his objective cards, made measurements off by 2 inches, and misused 'For the Greater Good' on a tank.
So stop trying to water down what he actually did. He didn't 'bump a model' and 'pick up a wound counter' any more than the Boston Strangler 'hugged a few ladies firmly'.
w1zard wrote: I'm going to be arbitrary here and say that 1/4 to 1/3 of all players at the tournament were playing as "loose" as Mr. Harrison was. I genuinely believe that is about the right amount btw. Do you honestly believe that a third of the entire tournament's attendees should be banned for life for bumping a model, forgetting a rule, or picking up a wound counter whether intentional or not?
And guess what? None of them got caught. None of them were called out by their opponent. This guy DID, and they reviewed the evidence and found proof of it. I'm gonna say a ton of people commit a ton of crimes, but we don't let the guys we catch slide because "oh well, other people probably do it". This is an outright childish and ignorant position to take.
You're blatantly, flagrantly outright LYING about what he did.
It is quite honestly the most dishonest argument I've seen on Dakka, and I've seen a few doozies.
SHUPPET wrote: I will never attend an event by these guys. Getting called out publicly as a cheater for an irrelevant mini bump to model with a glass, and for misremembering a die at the end of a long day, is not worth the drama for me. These TO's should feel ashamed, honestly.
Blatant Cheating. Obvious by watching the video.
I watched didn’t see it, none of The things he was called on could have helped him win... baseless accusations imo.
Primark G wrote: I watched didn’t see it, none of The things he was called on could have helped him win... baseless accusations imo.
Then see an optometrist. If you can't tell the difference between an 'accidental bump' and a 'blatant push', stay away from actual respectable players and the tables. You won't last long.
Also, even if he wouldn't have won, that doesn't matter when you cheat. Cheating is cheating, and this is pretty much 100% cheating by all reasonable standards.
FFS. This is why private gaming clubs are a thing.
And guess what? None of them got caught. None of them were called out by their opponent. This guy DID, and they reviewed the evidence and found proof of it. I'm gonna say a ton of people commit a ton of crimes, but we don't let the guys we catch slide because "oh well, other people probably do it". This is an outright childish and ignorant position to take.
You're blatantly, flagrantly outright LYING about what he did.
It is quite honestly the most dishonest argument I've seen on Dakka, and I've seen a few doozies.
So it's ok for a massive portion on the 40k tournament population to get away with this stuff, but the second someone gets caught for POSSIBLY doing it we have to ban him for life and pillory him as hard as possible to "discourage" others from doing it whilst simultaneously pretending that said massive portion of the playerbase isn't doing the exact same thing. If you can't see why this is unjust then frankly you are beyond help.
If you want to stop cheating at tournaments, catching one guy who may not have even been intentionally cheating and "making an example of him" isn't going to do jack.
So it's ok for a massive portion on the 40k tournament population to get away with this stuff, but the second someone gets caught for POSSIBLY doing it we have to ban him for life and pillory him as hard as possible to "discourage" others from doing it whilst simultaneously pretending that said massive portion of the playerbase isn't doing the exact same thing. If you can't see why this is unjust then frankly you are beyond help.
If you want to stop cheating at tournaments, catching one guy who may not have even been intentionally cheating and "making an example of him" isn't going to do jack.
So we shouldn't have any police then - because clearly if we can't catch every single criminal why bother right?
w1zard wrote: So it's ok for a massive portion on the 40k tournament population to get away with this stuff, but the second someone gets caught for POSSIBLY doing it we have to ban him for life and pillory him as hard as possible to "discourage" others from doing it whilst simultaneously pretending that said massive portion of the playerbase isn't doing the exact same thing. If you can't see why this is unjust then frankly you are beyond help.
Yes. Shame him. In fact, shame his supporters while we're at it.
So it's ok for a massive portion on the 40k tournament population to get away with this stuff, but the second someone gets caught for POSSIBLY doing it we have to ban him for life and pillory him as hard as possible to "discourage" others from doing it whilst simultaneously pretending that said massive portion of the playerbase isn't doing the exact same thing. If you can't see why this is unjust then frankly you are beyond help.
If you want to stop cheating at tournaments, catching one guy who may not have even been intentionally cheating and "making an example of him" isn't going to do jack.
So we shouldn't have any police then - because clearly if we can't catch every single criminal why bother right?
I don't think a massive portion of the population commits crimes on a regular basis.
You're arguing crime is a-okay so long as you don't get caught.
w1zard wrote: So it's ok for a massive portion on the 40k tournament population to get away with this stuff, but the second someone gets caught for POSSIBLY doing it we have to ban him for life and pillory him as hard as possible to "discourage" others from doing it whilst simultaneously pretending that said massive portion of the playerbase isn't doing the exact same thing. If you can't see why this is unjust then frankly you are beyond help.
No, it's not ok. Ban the guy in the OP for life, and do the same with the other cheaters. Stop making excuses for cheating.
w1zard wrote: So it's ok for a massive portion on the 40k tournament population to get away with this stuff, but the second someone gets caught for POSSIBLY doing it we have to ban him for life and pillory him as hard as possible to "discourage" others from doing it whilst simultaneously pretending that said massive portion of the playerbase isn't doing the exact same thing. If you can't see why this is unjust then frankly you are beyond help.
No, it's not ok. Ban the guy in the OP for life, and do the same with the other cheaters. Stop making excuses for cheating.
So you would be fine with life-banning a quarter to a third of the entire tournament attendees then? Again, it's an arbitrary number but I genuinely think it's accurate.
w1zard wrote: So you would be fine with life banning a quarter to a third of the entire tournament attendees then? Again, it's an arbitrary number but I genuinely think it's accurate.
Every damned one of them as soon as you have evidence.
But then again, you're pulling that number out of your ass to justify one scumbag's cheating. It's not like you have an actual point.
greyknight12 wrote: If anything, people are passionate about this one because we already KNOW it happens on other tables (though not even close to every one). To finally have a tournament take action after NOVA and Adepticon have essentially handwaved away incorrect lists and watching blatant slow play+bad sportsmanship on the top tables at LVO it’s refreshing to see cheating getting dealt with.
Exactly. And it's frustrating that, when an event finally takes the proper action against a cheater, we get all kinds of excuses for how it's not really cheating and how even if it is cheating it's not fair to punish this one person for it.
SHUPPET wrote: I will never attend an event by these guys. Getting called out publicly as a cheater for an irrelevant mini bump to model with a glass, and for misremembering a die at the end of a long day, is not worth the drama for me. These TO's should feel ashamed, honestly.
Blatant Cheating. Obvious by watching the video.
I watched didn’t see it, none of The things he was called on could have helped him win... baseless accusations imo.
Soooooo it's okay to cheat as long as they don't win? I don't get it.
w1zard wrote: So you would be fine with life-banning a quarter to a third of the entire tournament attendees then? Again, it's an arbitrary number but I genuinely think it's accurate.
If a third of tournament attendees are confirmed to be cheating, then yes. They are TFG s whose presence will not be missed. Ban every one of them and let them sit in the hotel crying about how they blew $1000 on travel expenses and got DQed.
w1zard wrote: So it's ok for a massive portion on the 40k tournament population to get away with this stuff, but the second someone gets caught for POSSIBLY doing it we have to ban him for life and pillory him as hard as possible to "discourage" others from doing it whilst simultaneously pretending that said massive portion of the playerbase isn't doing the exact same thing. If you can't see why this is unjust then frankly you are beyond help.
No, it's not ok. Ban the guy in the OP for life, and do the same with the other cheaters. Stop making excuses for cheating.
So you would be fine with life-banning a quarter to a third of the entire tournament attendees then? Again, it's an arbitrary number but I genuinely think it's accurate.
So it's ok for a massive portion on the 40k tournament population to get away with this stuff, but the second someone gets caught for POSSIBLY doing it we have to ban him for life and pillory him as hard as possible to "discourage" others from doing it whilst simultaneously pretending that said massive portion of the playerbase isn't doing the exact same thing. If you can't see why this is unjust then frankly you are beyond help.
If you want to stop cheating at tournaments, catching one guy who may not have even been intentionally cheating and "making an example of him" isn't going to do jack.
So we shouldn't have any police then - because clearly if we can't catch every single criminal why bother right?
I don't think a massive portion of the population commits crimes on a regular basis.
You're arguing crime is a-okay so long as you don't get caught.
No, I'm extrapolating your point to it's logical conclusion - if we shouldn't ban a cheater because 'tons of other people do it and don't get caught' that's where we end up.
Peregrine wrote: If a third of tournament attendees are confirmed to be cheating, then yes. They are TFG s whose presence will not be missed. Ban every one of them and let them sit in the hotel crying about how they blew $1000 on travel expenses and got DQed.
And post their pictures so everyone can point and laugh at them when they walk into the FLGS.
Matter of fact, ban them from the FLGS, too. I know the one I part-time at will give you ONE warning for deliberate cheating, and then after that if you're caught- you're banned from playing there.
w1zard wrote: So you would be fine with life banning a quarter to a third of the entire tournament attendees then? Again, it's an arbitrary number but I genuinely think it's accurate.
Every damned one of them as soon as you have evidence.
But then again, you're pulling that number out of your ass to justify one scumbag's cheating. It's not like you have an actual point.
Right. Glad to see where you stand.
For what it's worth, I still don't think those videos proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he cheated intentionally. I also don't think you realize that in your eagerness to punish "cheaters" and deal with "loose play" harshly (which according to you is almost as bad as cheating), you are basically saying a good chunk of the 40k community at large should be banned for life from competitive play.
Like I've said in all of my previous posts. For maximum effectiveness in punishing cheaters, you have to CATCH ALL OF THEM and punish them moderately (DQ them, lifetime bans only in cases of repeated cheating). Show everyone that cheating in a 40k game WILL get you caught, and DQed.
Giving a grossly disproportionate punishment to someone who may or may not have cheated in the hope that the community will stop doing something that has been tacitly accepted (both "loose" play and outright cheating) since the inception of competitive 40k is a losing prospect. It is also unjust to the "examples" who in the best case have been punished harshly for something a lot of people do on the regular, or in the worst case are totally innocent of intentional wrongdoing.
No, I'm extrapolating your point to it's logical conclusion - if we shouldn't ban a cheater because 'tons of other people do it and don't get caught' that's where we end up.
No, I'm saying rules should be enforced, but when massive amounts of people are breaking them and your only response is to catch a fraction of them and disproportionately punish them in a fruitless effort to stop others from doing it, that it is unjust.
For what it's worth, I still don't think those videos proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he cheated intentionally.
Well, that's your error. Fortunately what you think is irrelevant, because you're not the TO or the judges. And they disagreed with you and I'm pretty sure they didn't get to where they are being blind.
w1zard wrote: I also don't think you realize that in your eagerness to punish "cheaters" and deal with "loose play" harshly (which according to you is almost as bad as cheating), you are basically saying a good chunk of the 40k community at large should be banned for life from competitive play.
I do realize this. If they're caught, ban them. Ban them, and then as they make the walk of shame everyone should get to point and laugh at them. And when people defend them, point at them and laugh at them. Make them cry. Zero sympathy.
If you cheat to get prize money, you are attempting to steal.
w1zard wrote: Like I've said in all of my previous posts. For maximum effectiveness in punishing cheaters, you have to CATCH ALL OF THEM and punish them moderately (DQ them, lifetime bans only in cases of repeated cheating). Show everyone that cheating in a 40k game WILL get you caught, and DQed.
This doesn't even make sense. "The only way this will work is if you catch 100% of the people doing something wrong, and then just give them a mild punishment". Right. No, sorry, that's completely absurd.
w1zard wrote: No, I'm saying rules should be enforced, but when massive amounts of people are breaking them and your only response is is to catch a fraction of them and disproportionately punish them in a fruitless effort to stop others from doing it, that it is unjust.
Do you have any proof that 'everyone else is doing it', or are you just making things up? You've yet to make a point that didn't sound like something a kid would say. That's not how life works, that's not how anything works.
You catch the people you can catch. You don't let it slide because you assume (without evidence) that others were doing it.
Who are all these people? Once again you ignore all but a single sentence in the entire post because you can't answer to stronger logic. So source me these people you keep referring to, if you haven't just made them up entirely. Because nobody has seen any of them yet. So I'm going to make my post about nothing other than this so you can't dodge it anymore if you choose to respond to me.
They're judges and TO's. Again, who the hell do you think calls this shot- the hobo out back? People he lost to? Do you think some random moron could just say, "He cheated!" and the entire tournament staff just said, "OK!"
So no sources that anyone beyond than the T.O. made this call, just pure projection? Got it.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: I don't think you're understanding how this works and you're really grasping at straws.
So someone who has done work as a judge before at a tournament, telling you to base your opinions on what you actually know and not just a bunch of projection, doesn't have an understanding of how rulings happen in a tournament setting, and is grasping at straws?
I'm literally only asking you to source your own statements. Which you cannot do. You literally said all his opponents were in agreement here that he cheats for example. This is a fraction of the claims you made. Source this one part for example and we can go from there, or admit you are lying.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: Look, dude- I'll be 100% honest with you, I'm starting to think this argument is hitting a little too close to home with you. I'm not sure what you're seeing it, you really seem to be downplaying it and handwaving it off when the evidence, on freaking VIDEO, shows it. I'm curious as to what your local meta is like, and I'm pretty sure if this is considered 'okay' in your eyes then it's a toxic situation.
Your argument's 'logic': "Who are judges, really? And people get falsely accused of cheating, everyone could have just up and conspired against this guy because he was too awesome.
This is like the 3 or 4th time I've seen you be so incapable of understanding why someone would want evidence before immediately crucify someone for suspicion of cheating, that you immediately land on projecting things, "are you this guy?" "just admit he's your buddy" "you're meta must be toxic", jesus dude just stop. I don't even live in the same country as him.
You keep saying "everyone conspired against this guy" as though it means more than literally two people we know of so far - the guy to write the post and some random on reddit who claims he heard this guy cheated from someone else.
I'm waiting for you to expand that list for me.
And then to explain how mob justice actually disproves or effects the video recording at all. We don't need to rely on hearsay - we can literally watch the entire video.
Go get your rocks off somewhere else. There's entire communities built over spectating people's suffering. Let this guy play his tabletop game and bite back the foam.
SHUPPET wrote: You've got to be pretty wrong for me and Peregrine to BOTH call you out on it.
Or maybe you're just so wrong that you even find yourself on the same side of an argument as Peregrine on this one.
w1zard wrote: I also don't think you realize that in your eagerness to punish "cheaters" and deal with "loose play" harshly (which according to you is almost as bad as cheating), you are basically saying a good chunk of the 40k community at large should be banned for life from competitive play.
Alternatively, we understand that if it's really as bad as you claim then the 40k community is a toxic mess full of worthless TFGs who need to be banned for life. The solution is to ban them for life and have a better community with the remaining people, not to make excuses for cheaters and allow them to continue.
For maximum effectiveness in punishing cheaters, you have to CATCH ALL OF THEM and punish them moderately (DQ them, lifetime bans only in cases of repeated cheating). Show everyone that cheating in a 40k game WILL get you caught, and DQed.
Sure, but maximum effectiveness isn't required to have positive results. Even if punishment is not 100% guaranteed the risk of a lifetime ban and public shaming makes cheating a huge risk. Are you really going to cheat at a major event and risk that outcome, along with wasting $1000+ in travel costs, just because it's only a 25% chance of happening?
Giving a grossly disproportionate punishment
It's not grossly disproportionate. It's exactly correct. Cheat and say goodbye to your hobby.
It is also unjust to the "examples" who in the best case have been punished harshly for something a lot of people do on the regular, or in the worst case are totally innocent of intentional wrongdoing.
It is no such thing. Is it "unjust" to put someone in prison for murder just because someone else got away with murder because the police couldn't find enough evidence? Guilty is guilty, and "you didn't catch that other person" isn't an excuse.
And no, they aren't innocent. You don't accidentally bump a model just enough to make a subtle move without deliberate intent. You're either going to miss the model or bump it obviously enough that you immediately notice what happened even if your opponent didn't. And if the model is bumped forward and skewed around randomly on its base you're going to say "oops, my mistake" and agree with your opponent on where exactly to move it back to.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I wonder if the apologists realize that casinos legally ban people for life if they suspect them of card counting.
Or that card counting isn't even against the rules of the game, it just violates the casino's desire to have every game rigged in the house's favor and guaranteed profits in the long run.
Well, that's your error. Fortunately what you think is irrelevant, because you're not the TO or the judges. And they disagreed with you and I'm pretty sure they didn't get to where they are being blind.
Actually, what he thinks is not irrelevant. If he was speaking on whether or not he's going to ban him, he doesn't actually have this power and this is where he would be irrelevant, and the T.O. wouldn't be. However he, along with everyone in this thread including yourself, isn't doing this, and is instead speaking on whether or not they personally think the evidence proves him as guilty, and his opinion is at the very least, equally as relevant as your own.
You think the error was in his anaylsis, seems like w1zard believes the error in was yours. Just saying "nah actually it was yours" doesn't change a thing. Mentioning that the judges agree with you doesn't change anything either, as they are the people he is initially disagreeing with. There is numerous things that could have caused this ruling, and you just file anything other reasoning than "because he's guilty!" under C for Conspiracy, and spend more time trying to discredit people's right to even have a differeing opinion here, than actually formulating a sensible argument yourself.
I too watched the video, he didn't look guilty to me. So your response to this has consistently been to either a.) point at other people who disagree, most of whom you've made up and cannot source, or b.) to try to discredit peoples opinions, going as far as accusing them of being in leagues with this guy or in my case actually BEING this guy, because you genuinely cannot comprehend another reason why someone might not see a model bump with a glass as indisputably condemning evidence towards someone's guilt.
It shouldn't be this difficult. Even the guy who made the ruling had more doubts than you.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I wonder if the apologists realize that casinos legally ban people for life if they suspect them of card counting.
Or that card counting isn't even against the rules of the game, it just violates the casino's desire to have every game rigged in the house's favor and guaranteed profits in the long run.
.... doesn't this just analogy just support the argument that people get heavy handed lifetimes bans not just for breaking rules, but sometimes for reasons stemming from the host, and the fact that they made the decision to ban him doesn't actually support the fact that he's a cheater, as you guys keep saying?
T.O. can ban whoever he wants from his own event for whatever reason he wants. I don't think anyone is arguing that he doesn't legally have this power. However, when presented with the same evidence we're all just as capable of forming an opinion on whether or not this guy was guilty of cheating.
SHUPPET wrote: .... doesn't this just analogy just support the argument that people get heavy handed lifetimes bans not just for breaking rules, but sometimes for reasons stemming from the host, and that his ban doesn't automatically make him a cheater?
No, because nobody is arguing that the ban makes him a cheater. He's a cheater because he's caught on video cheating. I don't know how anyone can possibly watch that water glass bump and think it wasn't deliberate. He takes the glass from its spot on empty table, "accidentally" waves it around a packed area of the table and nudges his tank with it, and then immediately takes it away instead of setting it down there.
SHUPPET wrote: .... doesn't this just analogy just support the argument that people get heavy handed lifetimes bans not just for breaking rules, but sometimes for reasons stemming from the host, and that his ban doesn't automatically make him a cheater?
No, because nobody is arguing that the ban makes him a cheater.
So when I said he might not be guilty just because people say he is and that theres a few reasons people might say it, and you then responded, and I quote:
"then why are people like me, who have never played against the guy or even heard of him before this cheating incident, supporting a ban? Why hasn't the second-place player, who beat a similar number of people in the process of getting to the top table, received the same jealousy and excuses in the form of cheating accusations and calls for a ban? Why has this one player, out of all of the competitive players and all of the games they have won, been singled out like this?"
Was this not you arguing that the fact that he's been put forth for a ban supports him being a cheater, because he wouldn't be singled out if he was innocent? What was the point of saying this if not?
Or how bout when w1zard said that he didn't feel that what he saw on the videos prove his guilt, and Doritos responded with, and I quote:
"what you think is irrelevant, because you're not the TO or the judges. And they disagreed with you and I'm pretty sure they didn't get to where they are being blind."
Or when he said:
"This was done by judges and the TO. The people hosting it. And I highly doubt they got together and said, "You know what? That guy's too good. Let's lie about him and screw him over at the last game. Because mustache-twirling reasons!""
Is this not him arguing that look, these judges have made the decision, therefor, it's more evidence that he cheats, because they wouldn't do it if he was innocent?
Please do try to talk your way out of this one, it will be funny to see how far you can backpedal this.
This doesn't even make sense. "The only way this will work is if you catch 100% of the people doing something wrong, and then just give them a mild punishment". Right. No, sorry, that's completely absurd.
It is no such thing. Is it "unjust" to put someone in prison for murder just because someone else got away with murder because the police couldn't find enough evidence? Guilty is guilty, and "you didn't catch that other person" isn't an excuse.
No, but it is unjust for someone to be punished for being a murderer, when 20-30% of the population are also murderers and don't get punished for it, you just happened to be unlucky enough to get caught publicly.
SHUPPET wrote: So when I said he might not be guilty just because people say he is and that theres a few reasons people might say it, and you then responded, and I quote:
"then why are people like me, who have never played against the guy or even heard of him before this cheating incident, supporting a ban? Why hasn't the second-place player, who beat a similar number of people in the process of getting to the top table, received the same jealousy and excuses in the form of cheating accusations and calls for a ban? Why has this one player, out of all of the competitive players and all of the games they have won, been singled out like this?"
Was this not you arguing that the fact that he's been put forth for a ban supports him being a cheater, because he wouldn't be singled out if he was innocent? What was the point of saying this if not?
Well that's certainly a dishonest attempt to take things out of context. You quoted me addressing the question of why people would support a ban, and providing reasons other than "they're just jealous losers". Nothing in there says that he's guilty because of the ban, the statement about him being singled out is made in the context of assuming that your point about jealousy is true. We assume that your theory is true, and it leads to a conclusion that doesn't match what we see. Therefore it probably isn't true.
As for the other people, there's a huge difference between "the ban proves he cheated" and "the people with the most information about the subject concluded that it was cheating, I'm going to trust them more than I trust you and your lack of direct experience."
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w1zard wrote: No, but it is unjust for someone to be punished for being a murderer, when 20-30% of the population are also murderers and don't get punished for it.
No it isn't. Murders should always be punished. The failure to catch and convict other murders does not mean that we should decline to punish someone who does get caught and convicted.
No it isn't. Murders should always be punished. The failure to catch and convict other murders does not mean that we should decline to punish someone who does get caught and convicted.
Not saying we should decline to punish them, I'm saying that the situation is unjust. I'm not sure how you can argue otherwise.
I'm sure if I murdered someone and 20-30% of the population are also murderers, I'd be pretty mad that I was in jail while they were free. I'd either want to be outside with them, or want them to be inside with me.
w1zard wrote: Not saying we should decline to punish them, I'm saying that the situation is unjust. I'm not sure how you can argue otherwise.
I'm sure if I murdered someone and 20-30% of the population are also murderers, I'd be pretty mad that I was in jail while they were free. I'd either want to be outside with them, or want them to be inside with me.
Then we agree on the resolution: lifetime bans for all cheaters, and work to catch all cheaters.
Well that's certainly a dishonest attempt to take things out of context. You quoted me addressing the question of why people would support a ban, and providing reasons other than "they're just jealous losers".
What? I was the explaining why people might accuse someone of cheating even if they were innnocent. I was the one providing further reasons and possibilities, in DIRECT RESPONSE to you stating that "comments from his locals of him cheating puts this video in a different light", and I outright said that there is multiple possibilities why someone would say this, that these statements are unverified many things are possible, and we can't take stuff like this into account. You then doubled down on your opinion that THERE-IS-ONLY-ONE-POSSIBILITY-AND-THATS-CHEATING, with your response to me about how the TO's singling this guy out means I'm wrong in saying this.
I really don't think I took your words out of context. If I did I apologise, because I hate when people rely on doing that, but I genuinely thought this is what your argument here was - that the fact that he was put forth and not anyone else, is more evidence that he's guilty, and that this counters that the possibility of it being one of the reasons like salt that I put forth. But I'm quite sure you are just backpedaling right now.
As for the other people, there's a huge difference between "the ban proves he cheated" and "the people with the most information about the subject concluded that it was cheating, I'm going to trust them more than I trust you and your lack of direct experience."
Not when you are using that second statement to argue that the first is true, which is exactly what I', pretty sure you were doing, and if not Dorito's was unmistakeably doing.
Then we agree on the resolution: lifetime bans for all cheaters, and work to catch all cheaters.
If you want to go that route sure, but I think it is unnecessary. Either:
1. You have an effective way to catch cheaters, in which case a draconian punishment is unnecessary because certainty of being caught offers so much more deterrence relative to the deterrence gained by harsh punishment. (source- https://nij.gov/five-things/pages/deterrence.aspx).
2. You do not have an effective way to catch cheaters, in which case a draconian punishment is unjust for the reasons I have been espousing over the last two pages, and does little to add to deterrence.
Either way, lifetime bans for minor transgressions (intentional or not) are entirely counterproductive to achieving deterrence to cheating. And I do think nudging a model slightly is a minor transgression, and I'm still unconvinced that Mr. Harrison did so intentionally.
The only reason you could have for wanting lifetime bans for minor cheating, or "loose" play is that you believe that being dishonest in a game of plastic soldiers is such a heinous crime that anyone who does so deserves to be stigmatized for life.
SHUPPET wrote: I really don't think I took your words out of context. If I did I apologise, because I hate when people rely on doing that, but I genuinely thought this is what your argument here was - that the fact that he was put forth and not anyone else, is more evidence that he's guilty, and that this counters that the possibility of it being one of the reasons like salt that I put forth.
You are wrong. The fact that no other successful competitive players were targeted is evidence against your theory that this is all about jealousy towards competitive players and refusal to accept an honest defeat. If you assume that this is the only other (or at least primary other) theory to consider then, by process of elimination, it is evidence that the people arguing for the ban (including the TO who imposed it) are doing so out of genuine belief that he cheated and should be punished for it and would not call for a similar ban against other players who beat them. It is not evidence that he actually did cheat, it's possible that the people calling for a ban out of genuine belief that he cheated are wrong about the events (and would, presumably, drop their calls for a ban if he was proved to be innocent).
The actual evidence that he is cheating and the people who believe he cheated are correct in their beliefs is the video where he blatantly cheats on camera.
He was caught cheating, ergo he was banned. It's not rocket science.
The video EVIDENCE ( In bold for the frog ) was enough for the judges and thats who matter, not some armchair critic.
I don't know how some people were brought up but right and wrong were pretty important in my upbringing, now a days not so much if people think cheating ( even if he didn't win ) is OK.
Simple fact is, the guy is a past LVO winner not some casual gamer; he knew what he was doing and did so in a manner that could always be passed off as "accidental"..... thats kinda part of trying to not get caught guys.
The arguement of "well everyone is doing it" is completely irrelevant, i bet you weren't coming to lance Armstrong's aid on that one.
And to those saying the punishment is too much etc?/ Seriously..... he can still play toy soldiers at home or at other tournaments, why should the organiser give this guy a place at future events over another player? the TO doesn't owe this guy anything.
w1zard wrote: 1. You have an effective way to catch cheaters, in which case a draconian punishment is unnecessary because certainty of being caught offers so much more deterrence relative to the deterrence gained by harsh punishment.
Strongly disagree. I don't want cheaters in my community, regardless of any deterrent effect. A lifetime ban accomplishes the goal of removing a cheater from the community and therefore should be done even if it has zero deterrent value.
2. You do not have an effective way to catch cheaters, in which case a draconian punishment is unjust for the reasons I have been espousing over the last two pages, and does little to add to deterrence.
And, again, frequently lacking enough evidence to get a conviction does not mean that we should let people off easy when we do have the evidence. The only question is guilt or innocence, and the cheater in question is clearly guilty.
And I do think nudging a model slightly is a minor transgression, and I'm still unconvinced that Mr. Harrison did so intentionally.
Then we'll just have to disagree on this. Cheating is cheating, period. There is nothing minor about deliberate cheating. And there is zero credible argument that it was an accident. Just watch the video, it's as obviously deliberate as you can get, short of him announcing "I AM CHEATING NOW".
The only reason you could have for wanting lifetime bans for cheating is that you believe that being dishonest in a game of plastic soldiers is such a heinous crime that anyone who does so deserves to be stigmatized for life.
That's certainly blowing it way out of proportion. Losing the ability to play a single game is hardly "stigmatized for life". There are billions of people currently demonstrating that one can have an adequate life without playing 40k. Losing the ability to play 40k is nowhere near a life-wrecking event that requires us to accept a cheater to spare them a life of suffering. They can just get over the fact that they cheated and are no longer welcome, and find something else to do with their time (at least until they cheat again and get kicked out).
Process wrote: The arguement of "well everyone is doing it" is completely irrelevant, i bet you weren't coming to lance Armstrong's aid on that one.
My point on this issue was to argue that everyone plays a little loose occasionally. I've nudged models with a drink, I've forgotten to discard cards, I've accidentally picked up wound counters before. I've done everything that Mr. Harrison has done in that video on accident before, so I know it is possible. Nobody banned me for life, or publicly humiliated me for it though. Again, I'm not entirely convinced that Mr. Harrisons actions were intentional.
Process wrote: And to those saying the punishment is too much etc?/ Seriously..... he can still play toy soldiers at home or at other tournaments, why should the organiser give this guy a place at future events over another player? the TO doesn't owe this guy anything.
I think the punishment was too severe with the caveat that we don't know for sure that he was actually intentionally cheating or not. If he was intentionally cheating then it MIGHT be justified (not even IRL athletes get lifetime bans for first time cheating), but if he wasn't then getting lifetime banned for making a couple of simple mistakes is absolutely too harsh.
Peregrine wrote: Strongly disagree. I don't want cheaters in my community, regardless of any deterrent effect. A lifetime ban accomplishes the goal of removing a cheater from the community and therefore should be done even if it has zero deterrent value.
If you don't want to be associated with people who have ever cheated at something or bent the rules in their entire lives, you are going to be very lonely. It doesn't make cheating ok, but it is something to consider.
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Peregrine wrote: That's certainly blowing it way out of proportion. Losing the ability to play a single game is hardly "stigmatized for life". There are billions of people currently demonstrating that one can have an adequate life without playing 40k. Losing the ability to play 40k is nowhere near a life-wrecking event that requires us to accept a cheater to spare them a life of suffering. They can just get over the fact that they cheated and are no longer welcome, and find something else to do with their time (at least until they cheat again and get kicked out).
This is being disingenuous. Getting publicly ridiculed on social media can be a pretty life wrecking event, especially in a community as large as 40k.
w1zard wrote: Again, I'm not entirely convinced that Mr. Harrisons actions were intentional.
Then watch the video. He picks up the glass of water, off a clear space on the table, holds it near a group of models in a way that wouldn't be the natural resting position for your arm, moves it precisely the right way to nudge a model forward without obviously skewing it or moving it so far that the other player notices, and then immediately pulls the glass back into clear space. Either the whole thing was an act of cheating, deliberately planned from beginning to end, or he bumped the model with his glass, was aware that he hit models (since he pulled it back so quickly), and cheated by not informing his opponent and agreeing on where to move the models back to.
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w1zard wrote: This is being disingenuous. Getting publicly ridiculed on social media can be a pretty life wrecking event, especially in a community as large as 40k.
Then don't cheat if you're so sensitive that you won't be able to get over it even years later.
Then watch the video. He picks up the glass of water, off a clear space on the table, holds it near a group of models in a way that wouldn't be the natural resting position for your arm, moves it precisely the right way to nudge a model forward without obviously skewing it or moving it so far that the other player notices, and then immediately pulls the glass back into clear space. Either the whole thing was an act of cheating, deliberately planned from beginning to end, or he bumped the model with his glass, was aware that he hit models (since he pulled it back so quickly), and cheated by not informing his opponent and agreeing on where to move the models back to.
I have watched it, multiple times. It very well could be intentional. But as I've said I've accidentally moved models like this before and not noticed, this is not 100% conclusive evidence of intentional cheating.
EDIT: Re-watched it again, his opponent was staring right at the model as he nudged it, didn't say anything. How is he 100% cheating again? I still stand by my statement that it is possible that it was entirely unintentional and unnoticed (you can't see where his head is pointing so you don't know if he was distracted by something else).
Then watch the video. He picks up the glass of water, off a clear space on the table, holds it near a group of models in a way that wouldn't be the natural resting position for your arm, moves it precisely the right way to nudge a model forward without obviously skewing it or moving it so far that the other player notices, and then immediately pulls the glass back into clear space. Either the whole thing was an act of cheating, deliberately planned from beginning to end, or he bumped the model with his glass, was aware that he hit models (since he pulled it back so quickly), and cheated by not informing his opponent and agreeing on where to move the models back to.
Unless even 5% of the population drinks their water like that I don't think there's much to defend. I'm all for benefit of the doubt myself. There is no doubt here though.
I have watched it, multiple times. It very well could be intentional. But as I've said I've accidentally moved models like this before and not noticed, this is not 100% conclusive evidence of intentional cheating.
w1zard wrote: I have watched it, multiple times. It very well could be intentional. But as I've said I've accidentally moved models like this before and not noticed, this is not 100% conclusive evidence of intentional cheating.
But he obviously does notice. He quickly pulls the glass back, away from the models, after the bump. The only question is whether he noticed and pulled it back because he was trying to hide the bump, or noticed it and didn't say anything.
But he obviously does notice. He quickly pulls the glass back, away from the models, after the bump. The only question is whether he noticed and pulled it back because he was trying to hide the bump, or noticed it and didn't say anything.
It is possible he thought he tapped it with the water glass and didn't move it, it was less than an inch from where it was before. If I were playing and tapped a model with my water glass and honestly thought I didn't move it at all, I wouldn't even mention it to my opponent because it's a non-issue. Also, his opponent was staring at it the entire time, if he had a problem he should have said something.
Most people naturally want to give benefit of doubt. I know I do. Its even more of a pressure when you have a pseudo celebrity status like a former LVO winner. At the very least if a model is bumped you would expect an apology and a move to re-position the model but this didn't happen.
For me the change to the wound counter is more of an issue. Tournaments are full of bad sportsmanship, intimidation, rules mishaps and slow playing. These need to be rectified and some of these issues are not even against the rules but I can only support a TO for acting when video evidence is present. A warning should only be issued when there is no evidence.
Nithaniel wrote: Most people naturally want to give benefit of doubt. I know I do. Its even more of a pressure when you have a pseudo celebrity status like a former LVO winner. At the very least if a model is bumped you would expect an apology and a move to re-position the model but this didn't happen.
For me the change to the wound counter is more of an issue. Tournaments are full of bad sportsmanship, intimidation, rules mishaps and slow playing. These need to be rectified and some of these issues are not even against the rules but I can only support a TO for acting when video evidence is present. A warning should only be issued when there is no evidence.
Just to be clear, I have exactly 0 horses in this race. I don't follow the tournament scene at all, I'm actually a casual 40k player. I just take umbrage with the fact that a lot of people seem to see "obvious" cheating in this video when all I see is a nudged model, a mismeasured distance... stupid stuff. Stuff that I'VE done before on accident. Stuff that happens at every table in 40k.
Even if he came out right now and admitted he cheated intentionally, you could STILL make the argument that a lifetime ban is too harsh a punishment when almost all IRL sports don't even lifetime ban on a first cheating offense. And apart from vague, unverified, rumors about a shady reputation for questionable playing, as far as I'm concerned this is a first offense.
Nithaniel wrote: At the very least if a model is bumped you would expect an apology and a move to re-position the model but this didn't happen.
Exactly. I play a lot of X-Wing and stuff gets bumped all the time. And it's expected that you mention that you bumped it, make any necessary adjustments, and confirm with your opponent that both of you are happy on the model's position. At absolute minimum in cases where there's unlikely to be any dispute over it, such as bumping a model off in the corner in empty space, you need to adjust the model back to where it should be. You never bump a model and just ignore it.
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w1zard wrote: Even if he came out right now and admitted he cheated intentionally, you could STILL make the argument that a lifetime ban is too harsh a punishment when almost all IRL sports don't even lifetime ban on a first cheating offense.
And IMO this leniency is a mistake, driven entirely by profit needs (can't sell $$$$$$$$ gear with a banned player's number). A player who has demonstrated willingness to cheat is a who does not belong in our community. Their presence adds nothing of value, and everyone they play against would always have to be carefully watching them, knowing that they are willing to cheat if they think they can get away with it. Kick them out and be done with it.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I wonder if the apologists realize that casinos legally ban people for life if they suspect them of card counting.
They don't ban them for life say flipping cards open accidentally mid-round of poker game.
It's different thing banning for life for deliberate cheating and mistakes that happen. There's plenty of videos from london GT showing others doing same things. Those things HAPPEN! Nobody plays perfectly. If you ban everybody who makes mistake you ban everybody. Good! No more tournaments as everybody is banned for life.
That video shows things that can be cheating but also can be just mistake. Cheating requires intentionality. And now we have people claiming he cheats extra marker hit which benefits him in no way whatsoever(shoot seeker missile at full BS. Yey. Good when you have 0 seeker missiles). If anybody really claims that was cheating then he's a fool(and that is putting it with polite spin)
Nithaniel wrote: Most people naturally want to give benefit of doubt. I know I do. Its even more of a pressure when you have a pseudo celebrity status like a former LVO winner. At the very least if a model is bumped you would expect an apology and a move to re-position the model but this didn't happen.
For me the change to the wound counter is more of an issue. Tournaments are full of bad sportsmanship, intimidation, rules mishaps and slow playing. These need to be rectified and some of these issues are not even against the rules but I can only support a TO for acting when video evidence is present. A warning should only be issued when there is no evidence.
Just to be clear, I have exactly 0 horses in this race. I don't follow the tournament scene at all, I'm actually a casual 40k player. I just take umbrage with the fact that a lot of people seem to see "obvious" cheating in this video when all I see is a nudged model, a mismeasured distance... stupid stuff. Stuff that I'VE done before on accident. Stuff that happens at every table in 40k.
Even if he came out right now and admitted he cheated intentionally, you could STILL make the argument that a lifetime ban is too harsh a punishment when almost all IRL sports don't even lifetime ban on a first cheating offense. And apart from vague, unverified, rumors about a shady reputation for questionable playing, as far as I'm concerned this is a first offense.
2 days ago I hit corner of table by accident trying to move around quickly(I play horde army. I can't play slow if I want to play even close to full game. Especially with 2h time limit). This rocked off several models off exact positions. So thus I'm supposedly massive cheater and deserve life time ban.
Well again good. This attitude and we can be rid of tournaments as no player will be without lifetime ban within a year
I've watched the video a few times and and in regards to the water bumping the hammerhead I couldn't conclusively say either way. It looks bad, but on a crowded table and not wanting to take my eyes off what my opponent was doing it's the type of clumsy thing I'd do. Personally I'd have mentioned it if there was contact, but with a plastic cup it may not make an audible noise and the movement may not have been noticed by either player.
w1zard wrote: Even if he came out right now and admitted he cheated intentionally, you could STILL make the argument that a lifetime ban is too harsh a punishment when almost all IRL sports don't even lifetime ban on a first cheating offense.
And IMO this leniency is a mistake, driven entirely by profit needs (can't sell $$$$$$$$ gear with a banned player's number). A player who has demonstrated willingness to cheat is a who does not belong in our community. Their presence adds nothing of value, and everyone they play against would always have to be carefully watching them, knowing that they are willing to cheat if they think they can get away with it. Kick them out and be done with it.
Fair enough, at least your outlook is internally consistent. I disagree with that philosophy however. I am a firm believer in second chances. Third and fourth chances? Not so much. But definitely second chances.
Again, I want to re-iterate to you that if you refuse to associate with anyone who has cheated or been dishonest at some point in their life then you will be a very lonely person.
phillv85 wrote: Personally I'd have mentioned it if there was contact, but with a plastic cup it may not make an audible noise and the movement may not have been noticed by either player.
It is clearly noticed. Look how quickly he moves the glass away once he bumps the model.
So to the people who are sure there should be a ban here for Harrison... do you not think it should be mirrored for Robinson? Considering Geoff made a BUNCH of mismeasures himself. He also said that you had to draw line of sight to a models base. He accidentally re-rolled extra dice where he shouldn't have multiple times, and pushed some models too far in movement. He also had a bunch of screws with cards, forgetting to draw cards on the previous game, messed up the re-drawing of cards, misused his stratagem to draw from the wrong place, etc.
SHUPPET wrote: So to the people who are sure there should be a ban here for Harrison... do you not think it should be mirrored for Robinson? Considering Geoff made a BUNCH of mismeasures himself. He also said that you had to draw line of sight to a models base. He accidentally re-rolled extra dice where he shouldn't have multiple times, and pushed some models too far in movement. He also had a bunch of screws with cards, forgetting to draw cards on the previous game, messed up the re-drawing of cards, misused his stratagem to draw from the wrong place, etc.
Can you provide the evidence for this? The answer depends heavily on the context. How badly was the measurement done? Did it appear to be deliberate, or was it simply inaccurate? Etc. Sloppy play should not be rewarded (TBH, if you're making that many mistakes you should probably be DQed) but a ban requires a credible belief that it crossed the line into deliberate cheating.
phillv85 wrote: Personally I'd have mentioned it if there was contact, but with a plastic cup it may not make an audible noise and the movement may not have been noticed by either player.
It is clearly noticed. Look how quickly he moves the glass away once he bumps the model.
Granted, it's noticed, but whether he realises he's moved the model is unknown. The table is crowded around there and there's no 'good' place for the water to go. I'm not saying that exonerates him, just I can see how it could be done by accident. It's the type of clumsy thing I do all the time.
phillv85 wrote: The table is crowded around there and there's no 'good' place for the water to go.
Sure there is. Towards the bottom of the screen there's a wide open area where he hovers the glass initially and then places it after the bump. He took the glass out of a clear area, moved it over to the models and did the bump, and then put it back in the clear area. This is 100% deliberate.
SHUPPET wrote: So to the people who are sure there should be a ban here for Harrison... do you not think it should be mirrored for Robinson? Considering Geoff made a BUNCH of mismeasures himself. He also said that you had to draw line of sight to a models base. He accidentally re-rolled extra dice where he shouldn't have multiple times, and pushed some models too far in movement. He also had a bunch of screws with cards, forgetting to draw cards on the previous game, messed up the re-drawing of cards, misused his stratagem to draw from the wrong place, etc.
Can you provide the evidence for this? The answer depends heavily on the context. How badly was the measurement done? Did it appear to be deliberate, or was it simply inaccurate? Etc. Sloppy play should not be rewarded (TBH, if you're making that many mistakes you should probably be DQed) but a ban requires a credible belief that it crossed the line into deliberate cheating.
Watch the whole stream and you can see most of it yourself.
So you think that the correct action for the T.O. to have taken here was to DQ both players, ban one of them, and potentially ban the other too if it was as ambiguous as Harrison's, which you feel was enough to rule as deliberate?
At what point do you start to think maybe you're being a bit heavy handed towards the players who have just sat through a very long day of 40k, at a woefully underprepared and disorganised event?
Primark G wrote: Can he still play in ETC? Can he still play in the Caldonenian? Can he still play in Warhammer GT?
Of course he can, because no TO has any authority over someone else's event. A lifetime ban from the London GET means ... one fewer event per year you can attend.
Primark G wrote: Can he still play in ETC? Can he still play in the Caldonenian? Can he still play in Warhammer GT?
Of course he can, because no TO has any authority over someone else's event. A lifetime ban from the London GET means ... one fewer event per year you can attend.
This is something that I think many are forgetting. The Tournaments as they are now are basically all single events. So if you get banned from one you can still turn up at quite a few others. Of course if you are banned from one chances are the behaviour that got you banned will be more closely watched at the others and punishments might well accordingly reflect your previous transgressions (as in this example).
So the life ban is from one event that won't automatically carry over to others. And its justifiable that proven good behaviour at many other events might see the London event change their stance on the punishment in the future. A lifetime ban is just a simple way of saying "you're out" without sticking a random time limit on it that binds the organisers hands.
40k is the worst bloody awful set of rules to play in torneys. Too many extra rules in the codex, crappy and overly powerful codexes. Torneys set up without all the codex's release.
You pay for it so don't moan about who and what turns up opposite you.
Geoff does the world-famous "remove the measuring tape before moving your models so no one can tell if you're exceeding your movement stat" trick almost consistently on the stream.
karandrasss wrote: Geoff does the world-famous "remove the measuring tape before moving your models so no one can tell if you're exceeding your movement stat" trick almost consistently on the stream.
I noticed that, there's a bit where he's moving I think Guardsmen at the top right corner of the screen and it looks like he's gaining a bit of extra distance on some.
karandrasss wrote: Geoff does the world-famous "remove the measuring tape before moving your models so no one can tell if you're exceeding your movement stat" trick almost consistently on the stream.
I noticed that, there's a bit where he's moving I think Guardsmen at the top right corner of the screen and it looks like he's gaining a bit of extra distance on some.
Harrison touched on this, and a laundry list of mistakes we can see for ourselves by watching the stream, that he said he had absolutely zero problem with because he understands it was late in the day, and that Geoff was a great, friendly opponent even if everyone was a little short by that point in the day (thanks to the rush for time due to their terrible organization, and the lack of food due to having one overpriced food cart with a single cashier to feed over 400 people in an all day event where they confiscate food at the door).
This is blatantly just the T.O.s trying to shift focus from the abysmal reception to their tourney, by drumming up a drama where they are the good guys stopping the nasty cheater.
It's so transparent, but some people just lap this stuff up.
How does banning a cheater hide their incompetence in running their event? There's a whole thread concerning the problems the TOs allowed to happen.
Why are people treating this like it was a criminal offense in the States? Beyond a reasonable doubt is the standard in that instance since we are taking away a person's liberty. In this instance we are talking about a single event dealing with toy soldiers. He is still free to play in other places and certainly has not lost any of his rights. At best, the standard for this instance is more probable than not. Meaning your pretty sure but not totally sure (you can have a reasonable doubt but your still think he did it). The player has a chance to explain his actions but the TO can judge give that as much weight as he sees fit. And his prior bad acts should be considered in whether to punish or not as well as what level of punishment is given.
Either way, lifetime bans for minor transgressions (intentional or not) are entirely counterproductive to achieving deterrence to cheating. And I do think nudging a model slightly is a minor transgression, and I'm still unconvinced that Mr. Harrison did so intentionally.
Do you believe the verdict and punishment would have been the same if that had been his only questionable action or are you being disingenuous?
That's just flat out insulting to a person's intelligence and integrity. People can come to the defense of another person because they honestly feel that a wrong decision was made. What you are doing is nothing more than childish name calling.
I'm mostly blind.
I play 40k casually, but have attended the odd smaller tournament.
Been playing since 3rd.
I watched and rewatched the videos.
Have I made similar mistakes in casual play? For some things yes, but I have never once hit one of my models with a drink. I've knocked models while reaching for others, or bumped the table, and immediately checked with my opponent, apologized and we fixed things.
This player has apparently won major tournaments.
This was the final of a major tournament, you'd expect rookie, causal errors to be overcome by now.
My gut feeling is, also knowing a good many players that intentionally bend rules and cheat in tournaments, that this alex guy was intentionally doing a lot of what I saw on those videos. Maybe not all of it, but based on the video evidence I'd say he's definitely next to the Tony Slow Player When It Suits Me TFG as a shining example of what another TFG looks like.
karandrasss wrote: Geoff does the world-famous "remove the measuring tape before moving your models so no one can tell if you're exceeding your movement stat" trick almost consistently on the stream.
I noticed that, there's a bit where he's moving I think Guardsmen at the top right corner of the screen and it looks like he's gaining a bit of extra distance on some.
Harrison touched on this, and a laundry list of mistakes we can see for ourselves by watching the stream, that he said he had absolutely zero problem with because he understands it was late in the day, and that Geoff was a great, friendly opponent even if everyone was a little short by that point in the day (thanks to the rush for time due to their terrible organization, and the lack of food due to having one overpriced food cart with a single cashier to feed over 400 people in an all day event where they confiscate food at the door).
This is blatantly just the T.O.s trying to shift focus from the abysmal reception to their tourney, by drumming up a drama where they are the good guys stopping the nasty cheater.
It's so transparent, but some people just lap this stuff up.
Who cares if the tournament wasn't a success for this discussion? That's not the point and people can choose to not go again next year if they'd like.
Nobody. Just. Bumps. A. Model. With. Their. Water.
I question anyone's integrity defending that happening. I wouldn't ever let food or drink near models like that in fear of them potentially getting damaged. Doesn't seem to care about any potential paint chipping huh?
I guess I'm a bit confused on how the "Water bump" became the defacto example of cheating. The claiming he rolled a 5 when it was really a 3, the measuring example, and the objective card stuff is what caught my eye. Those are three examples of plain as day cheating to me where while I think the water bump was likely cheating, was the easiest of the incidents to claim was innocent.
I don't think I've ever rolled two dice and mixed up what numbers they were. Roll 10-20 maybe, but two!? The measuring thing too was just blatant as hell trying to snow ball his opponent into accepting he was within range. And while I would have given the objective card incident a pass if he had just admitted that he made a mistake, doubling down by lying about the situation ends any kind of pass giving because even if the initial act was a mistake you cross into cheating by lying about it.
How the hell is the water bump the worst way he cheated?
I would be very curious to talk to the other 5 players he went against though to see what their impressions of playing him were.
Adeptus Doritos wrote:You know, usually only cheaters are this defensive about cheaters.
This draconic mentality is reminiscent of witch trials in the dark ages. We don't feel he's a cheater, so really we're just defensive about crucifying an innocent man for something he isn't guilty of. You've condemned him based on made up information at every turn, usually people this rabid to for faux-justice have serious social issues, but what would I look like saying such a thing? Leave your attacks and projection at home. People don't have to agree with county-style decision making on his guilt, it doesn't make them cheaters.
Leo_the_Rat wrote:How does banning a cheater hide their incompetence in running their event? There's a whole thread concerning the problems the TOs allowed to happen.
Look no further than this next quote for your answer:
Lemondish wrote:Guy gets caught cheating and all anybody wants to talk about was the state of the tournament they didn't even attend.
Red herring.
The tactic works. Like it or not, a lot of talk about this event is now about the cheating instead of the focus on their gaking. They had negative threads at the top of Reddit that got bumped down by the cheating threads and the outrage.
I'm not sure any of what we see on the video is 100% conclusive and the player in question has provided defence and explanation for each of the alleged infringements. What makes me lean towards concluding this is cheating is the number of infractions and the nature of some of them.
Yes, nudging the model with his water doesn't seem to actually provide any benefit but it just looks so unnatural and forced it's hard to dismiss. Additionally, I'm having a hard time believing he didn't realise he'd done it if it was accidental, in which case he should have mentioned it and fixed the error. The wound marker thing is something I've seen happen sometimes, but this time seems very odd because he picks up the wound marker after rolling a single dice. The fact he replaces it in a state that favours him, combined with the extra hit from the markerlight also favouring him is a little too convenient. Yes, I know the markerlight hit was actually irrelevant in the context of the game but we don't know if he realised that at the time or only after the fact.
It's also worth noting I've played a few, shall we say "dodgy" players, in my time and one thing I've noticed is their behaviour tends to be fairly consistent. They'll bend rules in their favour and blatantly cheat in pickup games, first rounds of tournaments or top tables, it doesn't matter. It seems to be a habit-forming thing. Even if there's only a minor gain to be had they'll still cheat if they think they can get away with it.
Whether a lifetime ban is an overreaction is another matter. I remember the uproar after the LVO incident though, and all the people claiming the TO didn't take a strong enough stance there. Now we have this happening and people saying it's too harsh so it seems TOs can't really win.
Slipspace wrote: Whether a lifetime ban is an overreaction is another matter.
I remember the uproar after the LVO incident though, and all the people claiming the TO didn't take a strong enough stance there. Now we have this happening and people saying it's too harsh so it seems TOs can't really win.
It's not. They should have tarred and feathered him, after horsewhipping him, but before running him out of town on a rail...
This is so true. At least LGT won't have to worry about this particular guy in the future. LVO, that's another story. It would be interesting to see if he gets "disinvited" from next year's event, due to the controversy and bad publicity
Slipspace wrote: I'm not sure any of what we see on the video is 100% conclusive and the player in question has provided defence and explanation for each of the alleged infringements. What makes me lean towards concluding this is cheating is the number of infractions and the nature of some of them.
Yes, nudging the model with his water doesn't seem to actually provide any benefit but it just looks so unnatural and forced it's hard to dismiss. Additionally, I'm having a hard time believing he didn't realise he'd done it if it was accidental, in which case he should have mentioned it and fixed the error. The wound marker thing is something I've seen happen sometimes, but this time seems very odd because he picks up the wound marker after rolling a single dice. The fact he replaces it in a state that favours him, combined with the extra hit from the markerlight also favouring him is a little too convenient. Yes, I know the markerlight hit was actually irrelevant in the context of the game but we don't know if he realised that at the time or only after the fact.
It's also worth noting I've played a few, shall we say "dodgy" players, in my time and one thing I've noticed is their behaviour tends to be fairly consistent. They'll bend rules in their favour and blatantly cheat in pickup games, first rounds of tournaments or top tables, it doesn't matter. It seems to be a habit-forming thing. Even if there's only a minor gain to be had they'll still cheat if they think they can get away with it.
Whether a lifetime ban is an overreaction is another matter. I remember the uproar after the LVO incident though, and all the people claiming the TO didn't take a strong enough stance there. Now we have this happening and people saying it's too harsh so it seems TOs can't really win.
Just want to say I find posts like this much more rational than some of the ones I've been seeing (not all), and it actually serves to sway my perspective a little. Just wanted to ask, what was the lvo incident? I was on break for a little while
Just want to say I find posts like this much more rational than some of the ones I've been seeing (not all), and it actually serves to sway my perspective a little. Just wanted to ask, what was the lvo incident? I was on break for a little while
Some context. Different guy. Not sure if there was something else that I forgot.
Just to be clear, I have exactly 0 horses in this race. I don't follow the tournament scene at all, I'm actually a casual 40k player.
I understand now.
You have no stake in this, a ruling where someone blatantly cheated several times. Caught on video no less. Enough of that turnament's judges agreed that he did it to ban him for life. He argued back in a way that made him seem even more guilty, and you're up to the plate to defend him to the hilt.
Even though you have no stake in this.
So what's the lie? You having no stake, or your defense of him? Because no one argues for nine pages over two days for nothing. Unless their a troll.
Also, if you're going to argue about punishment, I'd appreciate it if you didn't take your cues from the American Pro-Gun Lobby. It's stupid when they do it, and even more so here. It's the easiest way to shred any credibility you may have had. As you noticed happened here. Any claim that you can't do anything because the solution isn't 100% perfect is a fallacy.
Again, Dorito, Peregrine, I agree with you about this. The guy got what he deserved. And anyone else caught doing the same should get the same punishment. Even if that means 75% of the event players have to go. This, like any other activity is lessened by the presence of cheaters, and the people who defend them in the face of their blatant actions, not questionable ones, but blatant, are doing the hobby a disservice. Gaming has enough of a reputation as it is. It doesn't need more on top of this. And maybe if we start holding people to a higher standard, rather then lower, then it's reputation will improve.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Mmmpi- If you don't agree with a person that's fine. Anyone has the right (and some would say the duty) to stand up to something they find morally wrong. People are questioning whether the player was cheating (which they are unsure of) and/or the measure of the punishment. They, like you, are entitled to their opinion and stating said opinion. There is no need for cheap innuendo or outright hostility.
In thinking about it, I'm now going to Ignore the apologists. People who would go to such lengths to defend a blatant cheater lack the minimum of character and integrity that I would require for further communication. One could say that I'm placing a lifetime ban on reading their posts. ____
ETA - wow, press 2 buttons, and the thread got much better!
SHUPPET wrote: Jesus, people are ridiculously angry towards anyone who doesn't agree that a model bump that looks deliberate and couldn't possibly be accidental
every second post is a personal attack lol. Talk about toxic
People aren't getting toxic to anyone who suggests it may be accidental.
They're getting toxic towards people who say "it might be accidental" as a reason to let him off the hook. The best way to cheat is in a way you could plausibly say "oops, it was an accident." I "accidentally" played two cards when I meant one in Uno; it's because of how I organize my hand and fatigue, I swear. I "accidentally" fell onto the woman and penetrated her without consent. The premise that "just because it 'could' be accidental" isn't a reason to let the guy off, because damn near anything can be accidental in Warhammer.
Ultimately, it is a subjective decision as to whether or not it was deliberate as only Mr. Harrison knows. But the consensus of the judges and many other people is that it was deliberate, and saying "but what if it wasn't" is just not helping, because that's used to justify all kinds of spurious behavior. The standard of evidence required to determine if someone cheated is necessarily lower than that of a court - because otherwise, the "it's an accident" works, as it did for the link above. Cheating so blatant as to not be excusable with "omg sorry accident" when called out is probably already weeded out at most levels.
SHUPPET wrote: Jesus, people are ridiculously angry towards anyone who doesn't agree that a model bump that looks deliberate and couldn't possibly be accidental
every second post is a personal attack lol. Talk about toxic
People aren't getting toxic to anyone who suggests it may be accidental.
They're getting toxic towards people who say "it might be accidental" as a reason to let him off the hook.
Well, They are, actually. Some are absolutely and undeniably doing exactly that. I outright said in other responses that they are free to take whatever ruling they like. Just that I don't think he was definitely guilty. And yet the same guy I responded to with this accused me of being a cheater for defending him, and made a bunch of other character attacks. Another guy just above directed it specifically to anyone who would defend him, lacks the minimum of character and integrity to justify talking to. Didn't say anything about it being only people who are trying to change the ruling.
And all that aside, Whatever the reason, I don't think this little technicality in argument justifies this toxic personal attacks and flaming people of different opinions regardless
Can we pause for a minute. I make rules mistakes when I play in tournaments, but in general when i reflect on them, they hurt me, not just help me.
Example time.
I forgot for an entire tournament to take advantage of my monstrous rending claws. On a roll of 6 that's an AP-6, flat 3 damage hit. With strength 6 they're rerolling wounds, meaning you have a decent chance to produce that 6. 2 Flyrants over 3 games, never once taking advantage of this. I even spent CP to fight twice with them because they weren't dealing damage. What a bonehead move.
In another game, at a final table, i skipped my psychic phase, totally by accident. I was exhausted and had just won an awful game with a true "That Guy" the game before and just wanted to go home. Me, an undefeated Tyranids player, having won 4 tournaments in the previous 3 & a half months, skipped a psychic phase at a final table. Whoops.
I'm very careful in regards to position of synapse. In that same game, I forgot to penalize myself for losing a synapse bubble on one unit. This was to my benefit. But in this game, and in general, it's fairly obvious that half of my blunders hurt me (quite badly). I'm not constantly making mistakes in my favor.
It's the fact that this guy was consistently making the same mistakes, and they were the kinds of mistakes that exhausted players don't generally make. No matter how tired you are, you will be careful in regards to position. I knock my miniatures over if my sweatshirt or hoodie grabs onto their ridiculously sharp claws. This happens. But to bump them with your arms, and slide them forward without knocking them over? Come on. I mentioned forgetting to take a morale test because of synapse. Fine. But that's not me fundamentally not understanding how synapse works, which is comparable to not understanding how greater good works.
The volume of mistakes and the kind of mistakes, the way they were made, should clearly suggest this guy was intentional in his mistakes.
EDIT - And just to add this game operates on good faith. If i forget to take a morale test because i kill a unit out of range by stupidity or exhaustion without thinking, that's unacceptable. I feel bad about it. Yes, my opponent should ask me to take a morale test in a perfect world, but in reality, he shouldn't have to: this is what i mean by good faith gameplay. I should know that i'm no longer subject to synapse and take my morale check. The game is better when people make an effort to be as fair as possible with their opponent. I've played a ton of tournament games with hyper competitive players. It's freaking obvious who is intentional and who isn't. I watched a guy roll a 2 and a 1, and tell me he passed two 5+ invulnerable saves. He didn't think i could see his dice. People who roll out of view of their opponent are not playing in good faith. I bring a dice tray and set it up in the center and always offer (a) to let my opponent use my tray and (b) roll any of my dice to take saves rather than counting up and rolling their own, to speed up gameplay. This way people always have the ability to see my rolls, and also audit them before taking saves, so i'm not touching my dice after rolling. Outside of "That Guy" i generally have people friend request me and want to play with me again, because i go so far out of my way to be a courteous opponent and be completely transparent in what i'm doing.
I know a 12 years old child that plays in our store.
At first with all of his mistakes (Like Plague Drones hitting on 3+ instead of 4+ even after I pointed out I was pretty sure they hit on 4+, the warlord trait of death guard that increases Disgusting Resilient of the warlord from 5+ to 4+ affecting ALL of the army, etc...) I just assumed he was just making mistakes because, well, hes a kid.
But then after talking with my friends, all of his mistakes don't only always benefit him (For example, I played my Reaper Autocannon as Heavy 3 for 3 full tournaments, so 9 games, when its actually Heavy 4) but he don't make the same "Mistake" with a person.
Like the drones hitting on 3+ instead of 4+. He played with a friend of mine, and he made them hit on 3+, then the next game he played agaisnt me and they where hitting on 4+ because I allready pointed out that the past tournament.
So, if somebody is always making "Mistakes"; but then ALL of those mistakes always work in his benefit... thats not a mistake.
The difference between accidents/mistakes and cheating is pretty simple:
* accidents/mistakes hurt the player, too
* accidents/mistakes get corrected as soon as possible, and generously
That means:
* you re-roll dice that you didn't get your opponent to verify
* you move models back to the most unfavorable position that they might have been
As so forth.
The onus is on the player to play the game correctly. At no point should the opponent ever be penalized or disadvantaged for a player's mistakes.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The difference between accidents/mistakes and cheating is pretty simple:
* accidents/mistakes hurt the player, too
* accidents/mistakes get corrected as soon as possible, and generously
That means:
* you re-roll dice that you didn't get your opponent to verify
* you move models back to the most unfavorable position that they might have been
As so forth.
The onus is on the player to play the game correctly. At no point should the opponent ever be penalized or disadvantaged for a player's mistakes.
While this is the logic I generally live by, it's worth noting that I've seen players intentionally question things that shouldn't have been in question to take advantage of generous corrections. Particularly when it comes to dice rolls there's a very fuzzy line between it being my mistake that I didn't LET them verify and their mistakes that they weren't paying attention.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The difference between accidents/mistakes and cheating is pretty simple:
* accidents/mistakes hurt the player, too
* accidents/mistakes get corrected as soon as possible, and generously
That means:
* you re-roll dice that you didn't get your opponent to verify
* you move models back to the most unfavorable position that they might have been
As so forth.
The onus is on the player to play the game correctly. At no point should the opponent ever be penalized or disadvantaged for a player's mistakes.
While this is the logic I generally live by, it's worth noting that I've seen players intentionally question things that shouldn't have been in question to take advantage of generous corrections. Particularly when it comes to dice rolls there's a very fuzzy line between it being my mistake that I didn't LET them verify and their mistakes that they weren't paying attention.
Then politely ask your opponent to actually pay attention when you roll your dice.
If you roll correctly (in sight, remove failures, leave successes for a moment for verification) its not my problem if they are checking their twitter instead.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The difference between accidents/mistakes and cheating is pretty simple:
* accidents/mistakes hurt the player, too
* accidents/mistakes get corrected as soon as possible, and generously
That means:
* you re-roll dice that you didn't get your opponent to verify
* you move models back to the most unfavorable position that they might have been
As so forth.
The onus is on the player to play the game correctly. At no point should the opponent ever be penalized or disadvantaged for a player's mistakes.
While this is the logic I generally live by, it's worth noting that I've seen players intentionally question things that shouldn't have been in question to take advantage of generous corrections. Particularly when it comes to dice rolls there's a very fuzzy line between it being my mistake that I didn't LET them verify and their mistakes that they weren't paying attention.
But that isn't what happened here. We're discussing very specific mistakes in a very specific scenario.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The difference between accidents/mistakes and cheating is pretty simple:
* accidents/mistakes hurt the player, too
* accidents/mistakes get corrected as soon as possible, and generously
That means:
* you re-roll dice that you didn't get your opponent to verify
* you move models back to the most unfavorable position that they might have been
As so forth.
The onus is on the player to play the game correctly. At no point should the opponent ever be penalized or disadvantaged for a player's mistakes.
While this is the logic I generally live by, it's worth noting that I've seen players intentionally question things that shouldn't have been in question to take advantage of generous corrections. Particularly when it comes to dice rolls there's a very fuzzy line between it being my mistake that I didn't LET them verify and their mistakes that they weren't paying attention.
But that isn't what happened here. We're discussing very specific mistakes in a very specific scenario.
John's post seems to be a general guideline to differentiate accidents and cheating. I'm just commenting on how simple definitions can be abused by those willing to do so.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The difference between accidents/mistakes and cheating is pretty simple:
* accidents/mistakes hurt the player, too
* accidents/mistakes get corrected as soon as possible, and generously
That means:
* you re-roll dice that you didn't get your opponent to verify
* you move models back to the most unfavorable position that they might have been
As so forth.
The onus is on the player to play the game correctly. At no point should the opponent ever be penalized or disadvantaged for a player's mistakes.
While this is the logic I generally live by, it's worth noting that I've seen players intentionally question things that shouldn't have been in question to take advantage of generous corrections. Particularly when it comes to dice rolls there's a very fuzzy line between it being my mistake that I didn't LET them verify and their mistakes that they weren't paying attention.
Then politely ask your opponent to actually pay attention when you roll your dice.
If you roll correctly (in sight, remove failures, leave successes for a moment for verification) its not my problem if they are checking their twitter instead.
I agree, but I've also been called in as a dice observer when someone was almost certainly intentionally waiting for the dice to be picked up before questioning the result. It shouldn't be your problem, I agree, but a lot of cheating is about exploiting the trust your opponent has that the things you do are not intentionally malicious.
Unlike the ork player who slow played to victory at WHF Alex defended himself here which shows some character in my opnion. I think Geoff Robinson would have said something if he thought he was being cheated too - he is no slouch and does not tolerate any sloppy play from what I’ve seen. Some people they get triggered and go totally nutso when this type of things happen and there’s no objectivety they want blood and they want it now. They are bullheaded and it’s pointless trying to discuss because they will only argue and never give an inch. It’s said and done now so best just to move along and ignore the mob here.
Tbh I couldn't really tell if it was cheating or not. Thats part of the problem though. Its too easy in this game to hide bold faced cheating. The sloppy play and getting rules wrong excuse are to hard to discount because everyone is guilty of that at some point in this game.
Also the whole attitude that the onus is on the player to keep their opponents honest doesn't help matters any when you have a game that is this complex. I've been to a few events where I couldn't tell if my opponents were deliberatly trying to cheat or just didn't know the rules well. The only way I would find out really is watching all the guys other games and see if they were pulling the same stuff at other tables as well. There aren't any feasable solutions to that problem though that I can think off.
Primark G wrote: Unlike the ork player who slow played to victory at WHF Alex defended himself here which shows some character in my opnion. I think Geoff Robinson would have said something if he thought he was being cheated too - he is no slouch and does not tolerate any sloppy play from what I’ve seen. Some people they get triggered and go totally nutso when this type of things happen and there’s no objectivety they want blood and they want it now. They are bullheaded and it’s pointless trying to discuss because they will only argue and never give an inch. It’s said and done now so best just to move along and ignore the mob here.
Multiple people in chat noticed Geoff was holding Alex to a lot more tight play then he normally would leading to suspicions that stuff happened during their previous game.
Tho it could just as easily be tensions for the final after him losing the previous game big.
licclerich wrote: 40k is the worst bloody awful set of rules to play in torneys. Too many extra rules in the codex, crappy and overly powerful codexes. Torneys set up without all the codex's release.
You pay for it so don't moan about who and what turns up opposite you.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the conversation at hand and adds nothing. Start a new thread if you want to whine about 40k not being appropriate for tournaments.
Primark G wrote: They are bullheaded and it’s pointless trying to discuss because they will only argue and never give an inch. It’s said and done now so best just to move along and ignore the mob here.
What the literal feth?
There's quite a few rational posts detailing why he deserved consequences.
Primark G wrote: I never said he is innocent but I don't any intelligent rationale person that plays 40k can say without some doubt he cheated.
If you define cheating based on intent, then there could be a doubt, but i certainly wouldn't describe that as reasonable doubt. To me, there is enough evidence to suggest he cheated beyond a reasonable doubt.
Was he tired at the other tourneys he cheated at? Tired at the SCGT was he? Tired at the AoS tourney where he had to be threatened with a table flip to stop his bull? Tired at the two previous 40k tournaments he nudged and moved models.
People like him get away with being an arse because it's mainly decent people that want to enjoy their time doing a hobby they enjoy. It's not life and death so let it slide.
Whatever the shambles the LGT was this year, kudos for them to finally call out his nonsense.
I wasnt going to reply to this thread but this is utter garbage.
SCGT i did not cheat. I moved a model which I discussed to my opponent he had moved too far and moved it back. Since then my opponent has even said it was fine and the internet exploded assuming i cheated as there was no sound.
Threatened with a table flip, what on earth are you on about? Thats never EVER happened. Youre literally spreading absolute nonsense. Two previous events i went to I droped out the second day because I was ill and I have never nudged or moved models. Stop spreading lies. Youre the problem with this community, literally.
People like you get away with giving others who are out there enjoying the game a bad name.
As for this nonsense about me being hungover, I was not hungover, I was tired. Because the TO forced me to play the invitational which I did not want to play because I was tired and was told Id have to be up at 5am to play the rest of it because we were rushed out the door. Again, get your facts straight. Chinese whispers is all youve been doing.
Primark G wrote: Unlike the ork player who slow played to victory at WHF Alex defended himself here which shows some character in my opnion. I think Geoff Robinson would have said something if he thought he was being cheated too - he is no slouch and does not tolerate any sloppy play from what I’ve seen. Some people they get triggered and go totally nutso when this type of things happen and there’s no objectivety they want blood and they want it now. They are bullheaded and it’s pointless trying to discuss because they will only argue and never give an inch. It’s said and done now so best just to move along and ignore the mob here.
Multiple people in chat noticed Geoff was holding Alex to a lot more tight play then he normally would leading to suspicions that stuff happened during their previous game.
Tho it could just as easily be tensions for the final after him losing the previous game big.
Nope he was a bit more tense because he losed. We definitely had a good game both times. I have spoken to Geoff and he will be covering his view in a podcast before. He has alsready stated to me our game was fine and handled well after the hammerhead mistake and thats that. Ive made my response to the rest of the nonsense claims. Sorry I didnt want to reply but just thought id cover that.
One thing is I even made a mistake in all my games. I was causing a wound on my riptides all tournament when I rolled a 1 to hit with the Nova charged very of its Heavy Burst cannon. I also thought riptides had 13 wounds, not 14, which I realised halfway through the tourney. So yes I made mistakes which hurt me aswell.
Why was there a hammerhead mistake? Did you have 0 practice games and never actually look at the ability in the codex? Can you explain why this rule would be misplayed so egregiously?
Marmatag wrote: Why was there a hammerhead mistake? Did you have 0 practice games and never actually look at the ability in the codex? Can you explain why this rule would be misplayed so egregiously?
Correct, 0 practice games. Never read the rule, just assumed they had it, as did many other tau players at the event (not to deflect, just saying). We even checked the rule at the table with the judge on my epub version of the codex and still miss-read the rule as it looked to us as if the tanks did have FTGG.
@killswitch
Man, don't try to defend yourself on the internet. It's a bit of a fool's errand. Best defense would be to quietly discuss with the LGT people and get the ban removed. Most of them will take that as proof of innocence. If that can't happen, then let them chatter with what they're gonna chatter about until they get bored of it.
Marmatag wrote: Why was there a hammerhead mistake? Did you have 0 practice games and never actually look at the ability in the codex? Can you explain why this rule would be misplayed so egregiously?
Correct, 0 practice games. Never read the rule, just assumed they had it, as did many other tau players at the event (not to deflect, just saying). We even checked the rule at the table with the judge on my epub version of the codex and still miss-read the rule as it looked to us as if the tanks did have FTGG.
Wow, okay. In that case, i retract my statement about this specific instance being intentional.
In retrospect, once you found out this rule was played differently, the best thing to do is resign from the tournament. It sucks but then you don't run into this kind of thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
niv-mizzet wrote: @killswitch Man, don't try to defend yourself on the internet. It's a bit of a fool's errand. Best defense would be to quietly discuss with the LGT people and get the ban removed. Most of them will take that as proof of innocence. If that can't happen, then let them chatter with what they're gonna chatter about until they get bored of it.
Actually i am glad he's discussing this. Finding out he had 0 games played as Tau actually makes the error more understandable. While there should have been consequences clearly a lifetime ban is not appropriate here.
Things like declaring you pre-measured and trying to move later are dubious but that's also a culture thing maybe? I would never let people do this to me, because it smacks of bad form at the least. So while some of his moves were questionable, the biggest issue to me was misplaying what should be a very well understood rule. But, if he has never really touched the army or list, i mean, sure, that's just incredibly surprising.
niv-mizzet wrote: @killswitch
Man, don't try to defend yourself on the internet. It's a bit of a fool's errand. Best defense would be to quietly discuss with the LGT people and get the ban removed. Most of them will take that as proof of innocence. If that can't happen, then let them chatter with what they're gonna chatter about until they get bored of it.
Agreed, problem is the LGT people who promised a public apology and apologised for me for the nonsense they have posted, havn't done so. And that above coment really made me bite. Lies and chinese whispers of the worst kind!
Marmatag wrote: Why was there a hammerhead mistake? Did you have 0 practice games and never actually look at the ability in the codex? Can you explain why this rule would be misplayed so egregiously?
Correct, 0 practice games. Never read the rule, just assumed they had it, as did many other tau players at the event (not to deflect, just saying). We even checked the rule at the table with the judge on my epub version of the codex and still miss-read the rule as it looked to us as if the tanks did have FTGG.
Wow, okay. In that case, i retract my statement about this specific instance being intentional.
In retrospect, once you found out this rule was played differently, the best thing to do is resign from the tournament. It sucks but then you don't run into this kind of thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
niv-mizzet wrote: @killswitch
Man, don't try to defend yourself on the internet. It's a bit of a fool's errand. Best defense would be to quietly discuss with the LGT people and get the ban removed. Most of them will take that as proof of innocence. If that can't happen, then let them chatter with what they're gonna chatter about until they get bored of it.
Actually i am glad he's discussing this. Finding out he had 0 games played as Tau actually makes the error more understandable. While there should have been consequences clearly a lifetime ban is not appropriate here.
And how about if you look at the part where he still miss played his Hammerheads the next day (he no longer fired the main gun with FTGG but still did the SMS's)
