The Space Wolves Codex Sucks.

I'm not talking about competitive power level. I mean that it sucks from a fluff point of view compared to where we left off in 7th edition. By the time the War Zone Fenris book came out, we were given formations that reflected the unique fighting style of each of the Great Companies. We had a large, varied set of relics (12 in total, double what we have now) and psychic powers (30 total from 5 different disciplines). Formations could be used to make your army feel like an Iron Wolves armored column, a Blackmanes shock troop force, or an elite company of the Great Wolf himself.

Now, we feel more like vanilla marines than ever before. I know some people on this forum think that SW should just be part of the base SM codex, but if GW is going to sell me a whole different book and make me wait months for it, why does it feel like we're taking several steps back from last edition? What were we waiting for? I don't think it should've taken them so long to copy/paste the SM codex and add 3-4 pages of stratagems, warlord traits, and relics. They didn't even bother painting up a 'Primaris Wolf Priest', whatever that is (it certainly doesn't look like a Primaris Apothecary or Chaplain). What does a 'Primaris Rune Priest' look like? A baby blue librarian? No way.

Looking through the codex, the only new painted models they show are 5 Intercessors, 5 hellblasters, 5 reivers, a redemptor dreadnought and 3 aggressors. I would've appreciated some tips on converting the bland primaris stuff to fit into my army better.

The fluff section has 3 tiny paragraphs on primaris marines in the SW timeline section. That's it. They added some unit descriptions, but no fluff about how the rest of the chapter views primaris, how they integrated into the great companies, etc.

I can't help but be very underwhelmed by this codex. It feels like I paid $40 for 3 pages at the back beyond what I already had in my index and one of those pages was a misprint.

Most of your complaint can be seen as "welcome to 8th edition." I mean, look at what Imperial Fists and Iron Hands lost: options to play fluffier variants of their armies, relics and special rules.

EVERYONE lost formations. Some lived on as strategems, but basically any chance of seeing those again to organize your army around should have died when seeing the lack of formations in other armies.

GW's "tips" for conversions seem to live on largely through upgrade sprues (like Ultramarines, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels got) or WarhammerTV videos (they've done some for Kill Team). Not much conversion stuff exists in any codex anymore save for some legacy models that have been in the studio for ages now.

So basically any clambering over that lost stuff is a long time too late because the runes where on the wall a long time ago there. I mean Blood Angels lost the Devastation of Baal variant army build and extra stuff, Necrons lost their Decurion and variant relics, ect, ect, ect. The Wolves won't going to be special and get a bunch of stuff from last edition that other armies lost.

What you got is everything you already had, everything the vanilla marines have plus the usual collection of unique relics and the like. And much like the other Vanilla Marines +1 books (Dark Angels, Blood Angels namely) it's not that exciting but what were you expecting with a release that brings no new model kits to your army that you didn't already have access to via index?

Look, I know I sound abrasiveness here, but what did you honestly expect seeing what armies got? They weren't rolling the red carpet out on extra stuff this early into the edition, they were focused on getting you a codex with playable rules. I'd count on new stuff being the thing going forward post having the codexes out, in a slower release cycle than expecting to get a bunch of special stuff right out of the gate.

ok you're wrong.

By the time the War Zone Fenris book came out

At the very end lifespan of 7th edition.

we were given formations that reflected the unique fighting style of each of the Great Companies

Dude everyone lost their formations because the community as a whole resoundingly told GW they where a bad idea. If you're only just now upset that formations have left... what the hell have you been the last year? Hibernating?

We had a large, varied set of relics (12 in total, double what we have now

Thats cause Space Wolves had a codex and a supplement. that'll do it. eit woulda been nice to have a few more relics as space marines have 7 or so before you get to the chapter specific relics, but GW's more or less hit on a formula of 2 melee weapons, 1 set of armor, and some other equipment that gives buffs or auras.

and psychic powers (30 total from 5 different disciplines).

Yet again everyone's psykic powers list has been reduced, I ask once more what where you expecting?

Now, we feel more like vanilla marines than ever before.

why because you lack formations? 90% of the psykic pwoers space wolves had where the same.

I would've appreciated some tips on converting the bland primaris stuff to fit into my army better.

Add pelts, wolf tails and wolf teeth? seriously it's not hard. And they DO tell you what the squad markings for each type of Primars are.

The fluff section has 3 tiny paragraphs on primaris marines in the SW timeline section. That's it. They added some unit descriptions, but no fluff about how the rest of the chapter views primaris, how they integrated into the great companies, etc.

Yes they did. we know that there was some argument among the wolf lords about taking them at all, some fearing that Gulliman was using it as an excuse to foist the codex on them. We know that they've begun to prove their worth and people are coming around, we know Blood Claws really don't like them to a point where the chapter leadership needed to codify some dueling rules. etc. We know lots. fact is, of the 3 space marine codices I've read (space marines, dark angels and space wolves) Codex Space Wolves has the most information about how they're fitting in. as for the primaris wolf preist, they proably look like a Primaris chaplain with a wolf skull helmet instead of a human skull helmet, JUST LIKE A NORMAL WOLF PREIST

The fluff section has 3 tiny paragraphs on primaris marines in the SW timeline section. That's it. They added some unit descriptions, but no fluff about how the rest of the chapter views primaris, how they integrated into the great companies, etc.

it has a lot more and IMHO is proably the best source of information on how Primaris acclimative to a chapter of all the space marine codices. the dark angel and blood angel players WISH they got the kind of info Space Wolves did about Primaris Marines

I expected formations from 7th to show up as stratagems, not formations of course.

I feel like the book is just bad value with limited new model photos, limited fluff additions, and limited rules.

Why is it to be expected that 8th is a large step back from 7th in terms of army customization and rule variety?

 beir wrote:
I expected formations from 7th to show up as stratagems, not formations of course.

I feel like the book is just bad value with limited new model photos, limited fluff additions, and limited rules.

Why is it to be expected that 8th is a large step back from 7th in terms of army customization and rule variety?

You expected VERY wrong. How many armies got formations as strategems? I mean, where's my strategem to let cultists eat wounds for a nearby Helbrute, or my strategem that allows me to make a massive block of Necron warriors who get bonuses to RP?

I know of TWO formations that got strategems and maybe there are more, but they're only there for the four people or so who went out and bout 3 predators or vindicators for the Killshot or Linebreaker. That's about it. Maybe the 9 Zoanthrope one was a formation too, but the point is that we barely see ANY formations survive the edition change and your expectation was blatant wishlisting.

There aren't a lot of new models to show off for Wolves at this time beyond blue-grey Primaris. I mean they could paint up some of your new additions from the vanilla book, but that's about it.

And you're expecting what to be added for army customization? Unique FOCs? We have an FOC for basically any army comp you can imagine and somehow that doesn't let you build any of the past great companies? Or were you expecting to get chapter tactics AND a great company tactic on top of it?

Eldar, tyranids, dark eldar, Tau all got quite a bit of customization in choosing "chapter tactics". I'm paying the same for my codex and got much less. I'd rather just be rolled into the vanilla SM codex considering what we got. Just tack the 3 pages of warlord traits, relics, and 5-6 unique stratagems to the vanilla codex and give it to me 15 months earlier.

 beir wrote:
Eldar, tyranids, dark eldar, Tau all got quite a bit of customization in choosing "chapter tactics". I'm paying the same for my codex and got much less. I'd rather just be rolled into the vanilla SM codex considering what we got. Just tack the 3 pages of warlord traits, relics, and 5-6 unique stratagems to the vanilla codex and give it to me 15 months earlier.

That reeks of a false dichotomy. Why? Because you're comparing armies that represent ENTIRE FACTIONS to a book that represents a single subfaction. OF COURSE they have more varied tactics. Space Wolves FIGHT LIKE SPACE WOLVES. Any organizational nuance isn't worth noting when it doesn't change the main manner in what a Space Wolves are known for. This like like complaining that oranges only taste like oranges and don't come in a wide array of fruit flavors.

You're crying over not having your cake and getting to eat it to and it's honestly making me think this is just bait to make the ACTUAL Space Wolf players look bad because I refuse to believe someone could legitimately be this self-entitled about their army.

 beir wrote:
Eldar, tyranids, dark eldar, Tau all got quite a bit of customization in choosing "chapter tactics". I'm paying the same for my codex and got much less. I'd rather just be rolled into the vanilla SM codex considering what we got. Just tack the 3 pages of warlord traits, relics, and 5-6 unique stratagems to the vanilla codex and give it to me 15 months earlier.

Because it covers most septs, craftworlds, hive fleets etc. And if you were in the normal SM book you'd be getting much less fluff and only 1 unique space wolf thing for warlord traits, relics and stratagems. You'd probably not even have the unique psychic powers.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 beir wrote:
Eldar, tyranids, dark eldar, Tau all got quite a bit of customization in choosing "chapter tactics". I'm paying the same for my codex and got much less. I'd rather just be rolled into the vanilla SM codex considering what we got. Just tack the 3 pages of warlord traits, relics, and 5-6 unique stratagems to the vanilla codex and give it to me 15 months earlier.

That reeks of a false dichotomy. Why? Because you're comparing armies that represent ENTIRE FACTIONS to a book that represents a single subfaction. OF COURSE they have more varied tactics. Space Wolves FIGHT LIKE SPACE WOLVES. Any organizational nuance isn't worth noting when it doesn't change the main manner in what a Space Wolves are known for. This like like complaining that oranges only taste like oranges and don't come in a wide array of fruit flavors.

You're crying over not having your cake and getting to eat it to and it's honestly making me think this is just bait to make the ACTUAL Space Wolf players look bad because I refuse to believe someone could legitimately be this self-entitled about their army.

So charge me $20 for my subfaction book and charge the full faction armies full price. That would help set expectations that my army is just a subfaction and is getting less content as a result.

Do you really think SW codex is equal value to, say, tyranids based on content? A tyranid player gets many more play options in their book.

 beir wrote:
I expected formations from 7th to show up as stratagems, not formations of course.

I feel like the book is just bad value with limited new model photos, limited fluff additions, and limited rules.

Why is it to be expected that 8th is a large step back from 7th in terms of army customization and rule variety?

in the case of rule varity because they wanted to cut down on some of the bloat.

 beir wrote:

Do you really think SW codex is equal value to, say, tyranids based on content? A tyranid player gets many more play options in their book.

Apart from hive fleet adaptations/chapter tactics, yes.

 beir wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 beir wrote:
Eldar, tyranids, dark eldar, Tau all got quite a bit of customization in choosing "chapter tactics". I'm paying the same for my codex and got much less. I'd rather just be rolled into the vanilla SM codex considering what we got. Just tack the 3 pages of warlord traits, relics, and 5-6 unique stratagems to the vanilla codex and give it to me 15 months earlier.

That reeks of a false dichotomy. Why? Because you're comparing armies that represent ENTIRE FACTIONS to a book that represents a single subfaction. OF COURSE they have more varied tactics. Space Wolves FIGHT LIKE SPACE WOLVES. Any organizational nuance isn't worth noting when it doesn't change the main manner in what a Space Wolves are known for. This like like complaining that oranges only taste like oranges and don't come in a wide array of fruit flavors.

You're crying over not having your cake and getting to eat it to and it's honestly making me think this is just bait to make the ACTUAL Space Wolf players look bad because I refuse to believe someone could legitimately be this self-entitled about their army.

So charge me $20 for my subfaction book and charge the full faction armies full price. That would help set expectations that my army is just a subfaction and is getting less content as a result.

Do you really think SW codex is equal value to, say, tyranids based on content? A tyranid player gets many more play options in their book.

"I created false expectations despite being shown EXACTLY what GW is doing with the non-codex space marine chapters and somehow it's not my fault! They should just roll my codex into a supplement so I could complain about how they ruined my army by rolling it into the main Space Marine codex instead of keeping it a unique army with it's own codex!"

Emperor's teeth I just want to play a tiny violin for you and your absurdity.

If every Space Wolf player acted like you I'd take the time to build an acurate scale model of the Fang just so I could have my army break it every game they play. You are the worst kind of player because even when given your own unique book with special psychic powers, unique options, unique relics, a wide array of special characters and then given everything from the regular Marine book on top of it (making it so you're no longer locked out of stuff for no reason) you still cry about how abused and neglected your army is and how you want stuff you have no right having because the game has moved past those things and gave them up in the name of better game balance.

You are LITERALLY the kind of player that is toxic to this game because you poison the well for that others perceive the kind of people who play a given army, make the studio less likely to listen to feedback because all it you have to offer is "I WANT WHAT NO ONE ELSE HAS!" and basically just stinks up a room with your rotten personality.

Seriously, I haven't been this outright ticked off at anyone in a while and I should applaud you for it. I don't get this wound up easily, and hearing someone cry about how dang salty they are they can't have the things that EVERYONE lost in this edition just hit the right buttons, so congrats for that I suppose.

 beir wrote:


Do you really think SW codex is equal value to, say, tyranids based on content?

Yes.

/thread

 beir wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 beir wrote:
Eldar, tyranids, dark eldar, Tau all got quite a bit of customization in choosing "chapter tactics". I'm paying the same for my codex and got much less. I'd rather just be rolled into the vanilla SM codex considering what we got. Just tack the 3 pages of warlord traits, relics, and 5-6 unique stratagems to the vanilla codex and give it to me 15 months earlier.

That reeks of a false dichotomy. Why? Because you're comparing armies that represent ENTIRE FACTIONS to a book that represents a single subfaction. OF COURSE they have more varied tactics. Space Wolves FIGHT LIKE SPACE WOLVES. Any organizational nuance isn't worth noting when it doesn't change the main manner in what a Space Wolves are known for. This like like complaining that oranges only taste like oranges and don't come in a wide array of fruit flavors.

You're crying over not having your cake and getting to eat it to and it's honestly making me think this is just bait to make the ACTUAL Space Wolf players look bad because I refuse to believe someone could legitimately be this self-entitled about their army.

So charge me $20 for my subfaction book and charge the full faction armies full price. That would help set expectations that my army is just a subfaction and is getting less content as a result.

Do you really think SW codex is equal value to, say, tyranids based on content? A tyranid player gets many more play options in their book.

No they don't.Space Wolves have some of the greatest varity among the space marine factions. You can run a VERY shooty army, a VERY choppy one, etc. stop obsessing over the fact that Space Wolves, LIKE EVERY ONE Codex involving a single army only gets one chapter trait etc. if you'd been paying ANY attention to the codices AT ALL, the space wolves codex would come as no suprise to you. you'rew apparently upset that space wolves don't have as much rules varity as a codex that covers Ultramarines (and their hundreds of sucessors) Imperial Fists, White Scars, Salamanders Iron Hands, Raven Guard, AND THE HUNDREDS of sucessor chapters these chapters have?! Blood Angels and Dark angels each got a single trait, and 6 relics each, did you hear them bitching? And I'd argue BTW Space Wolves on Average has MUCH better relics then those two chapters.

rather then complain your, unrealistic, expectations where not met, look at what space wolves did get. they got a VERY solid codex

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 beir wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 beir wrote:
Eldar, tyranids, dark eldar, Tau all got quite a bit of customization in choosing "chapter tactics". I'm paying the same for my codex and got much less. I'd rather just be rolled into the vanilla SM codex considering what we got. Just tack the 3 pages of warlord traits, relics, and 5-6 unique stratagems to the vanilla codex and give it to me 15 months earlier.

That reeks of a false dichotomy. Why? Because you're comparing armies that represent ENTIRE FACTIONS to a book that represents a single subfaction. OF COURSE they have more varied tactics. Space Wolves FIGHT LIKE SPACE WOLVES. Any organizational nuance isn't worth noting when it doesn't change the main manner in what a Space Wolves are known for. This like like complaining that oranges only taste like oranges and don't come in a wide array of fruit flavors.

You're crying over not having your cake and getting to eat it to and it's honestly making me think this is just bait to make the ACTUAL Space Wolf players look bad because I refuse to believe someone could legitimately be this self-entitled about their army.

So charge me $20 for my subfaction book and charge the full faction armies full price. That would help set expectations that my army is just a subfaction and is getting less content as a result.

Do you really think SW codex is equal value to, say, tyranids based on content? A tyranid player gets many more play options in their book.

"I created false expectations despite being shown EXACTLY what GW is doing with the non-codex space marine chapters and somehow it's not my fault! They should just roll my codex into a supplement so I could complain about how they ruined my army by rolling it into the main Space Marine codex instead of keeping it a unique army with it's own codex!"

Emperor's teeth I just want to play a tiny violin for you and your absurdity.

If every Space Wolf player acted like you I'd take the time to build an acurate scale model of the Fang just so I could have my army break it every game they play. You are the worst kind of player because even when given your own unique book with special psychic powers, unique options, unique relics, a wide array of special characters and then given everything from the regular Marine book on top of it (making it so you're no longer locked out of stuff for no reason) you still cry about how abused and neglected your army is and how you want stuff you have no right having because the game has moved past those things and gave them up in the name of better game balance.

You are LITERALLY the kind of player that is toxic to this game because you poison the well for that others perceive the kind of people who play a given army, make the studio less likely to listen to feedback because all it you have to offer is "I WANT WHAT NO ONE ELSE HAS!" and basically just stinks up a room with your rotten personality.

Seriously, I haven't been this outright ticked off at anyone in a while and I should applaud you for it. I don't get this wound up easily, and hearing someone cry about how dang salty they are they can't have the things that EVERYONE lost in this edition just hit the right buttons, so congrats for that I suppose.

GW set a precedent to n 7th that, among the SM subfactions, SW got more specialized rules and content. They then witheld the SW codex for over half a year beyond the other SM factions.

After that, we got a codex that is just another copy/paste job.

I don't think it's unreasonable to have expected more. I have no idea why this has triggered you so bad, but I guess you have some baggage that you're bringing to the discussion.

That "precedent" only existed because you had a codex and a supplement and was killed when 7th ended. If this was over the course of several editions you might have some sympathy, but you had the supplement barely a year before the edition came to a close and we were moving onto 8th.

And AGAIN, what did you think you could get with a codex that wasn't giving you new, unique kits? You weren't getting Russ, you weren't getting a new Frostwolf Sled Team, you weren't even getting signs of seeing a mass migration of formations as strategems. You basically invented a wishlist in your head of what you wanted and now want to blame GW for not catering to demands no one else even had or expected.

The only baggage I see in this thread is one salty wolf player who wants to have everything under the sun and doesn't get why others might be a bit put off by this rather entitled attitude of "I want it all".

Maybe you need to go watch the Veronica Salt scenes from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory to see why people would be a bit irked by such behavior.

 beir wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 beir wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 beir wrote:
Eldar, tyranids, dark eldar, Tau all got quite a bit of customization in choosing "chapter tactics". I'm paying the same for my codex and got much less. I'd rather just be rolled into the vanilla SM codex considering what we got. Just tack the 3 pages of warlord traits, relics, and 5-6 unique stratagems to the vanilla codex and give it to me 15 months earlier.

That reeks of a false dichotomy. Why? Because you're comparing armies that represent ENTIRE FACTIONS to a book that represents a single subfaction. OF COURSE they have more varied tactics. Space Wolves FIGHT LIKE SPACE WOLVES. Any organizational nuance isn't worth noting when it doesn't change the main manner in what a Space Wolves are known for. This like like complaining that oranges only taste like oranges and don't come in a wide array of fruit flavors.

You're crying over not having your cake and getting to eat it to and it's honestly making me think this is just bait to make the ACTUAL Space Wolf players look bad because I refuse to believe someone could legitimately be this self-entitled about their army.

So charge me $20 for my subfaction book and charge the full faction armies full price. That would help set expectations that my army is just a subfaction and is getting less content as a result.

Do you really think SW codex is equal value to, say, tyranids based on content? A tyranid player gets many more play options in their book.

"I created false expectations despite being shown EXACTLY what GW is doing with the non-codex space marine chapters and somehow it's not my fault! They should just roll my codex into a supplement so I could complain about how they ruined my army by rolling it into the main Space Marine codex instead of keeping it a unique army with it's own codex!"

Emperor's teeth I just want to play a tiny violin for you and your absurdity.

If every Space Wolf player acted like you I'd take the time to build an acurate scale model of the Fang just so I could have my army break it every game they play. You are the worst kind of player because even when given your own unique book with special psychic powers, unique options, unique relics, a wide array of special characters and then given everything from the regular Marine book on top of it (making it so you're no longer locked out of stuff for no reason) you still cry about how abused and neglected your army is and how you want stuff you have no right having because the game has moved past those things and gave them up in the name of better game balance.

You are LITERALLY the kind of player that is toxic to this game because you poison the well for that others perceive the kind of people who play a given army, make the studio less likely to listen to feedback because all it you have to offer is "I WANT WHAT NO ONE ELSE HAS!" and basically just stinks up a room with your rotten personality.

Seriously, I haven't been this outright ticked off at anyone in a while and I should applaud you for it. I don't get this wound up easily, and hearing someone cry about how dang salty they are they can't have the things that EVERYONE lost in this edition just hit the right buttons, so congrats for that I suppose.

GW set a precedent to n 7th that, among the SM subfactions, SW got more specialized rules and content. They then witheld the SW codex for over half a year beyond the other SM factions.

After that, we got a codex that is just another copy/paste job.

I don't think it's unreasonable to have expected more. I have no idea why this has triggered you so bad, but I guess you have some baggage that you're bringing to the discussion.

Except Space Wovles DIDN'T.

they got a grand total of 14 formations.

Meanwhile vanilla space Marines got 24 formations, TWICE what space wolves got. And each Chapter had formations clearly assopciated with it etc. well guess what, THOSE ARE GONE NOW TOO. and diffrentiating between White scars and Iron Hands seems a hell of a lot more important then diffrentiating between the blackmanes and the company of the great wolf. meanwhile, the pairing back of relics hurt others a LOT more then it did the space wolves, as raven guard, iron hands etc each had their own relic list each of which got paired back to a grand total of one item. you don't hear them complaining now do you? And yet again.. it's EARLY in 8th edition still, all those formations relics etc? a lotta em came very late in 7th edition. in a year or two when 8th edition is mature space wolves might have 20 relics, and 53 stratigiums, and lemen russ and a ton of other things.

Meanwhile look at what space wolves got, they have cataphracti and tarantos terminator armor now, as well as contemptor dreadnoughts, which in 7th edition space wolves had been denied for arbitrary reasons

By the standards of 8th edition and every other codex released thus far, the Space Wolves book is really good. Lots of good strategems, great psychic powers, a unique warlord trait system (that no one else has) and a variety of interesting and competitive units. I think any space marine player would trade their books for yours in a heartbeat. It only seems like less because you're comparing it to what was available at the END of 7th, after several years of releases and supplements. This is a different edition and space wolves did not receive less than anyone else up to this point.

heck the warlord trait system I think is such a neat one I'd love to see GW edit every other armies warlord traits to such a system with the next chapter approved

Boy wait until you've seen the Dark and Blood Angels codices, which should be representing them and their successors!

Most of the lore of the 8th edition codexes have been relatively lacking. They have no depth to them other than a list of dates in every single one, then a organization chart, timeline, different flavors of the faction, then pictures of units and unit descriptions. No actual lore is covered in the 8th edition codex, not the likes of 5th or 6th. 5th edition as much as people rag on it, had a sizeable amount of lore, including battles, and some amazing campaigns (world Engine, Rynn's World, Zeist Campaign, and the Iron Hands going freaking insane crusade stabby).

Alot of that is missing in these latest codexes (I didn't play 6th or 7th forgive me) but I came back and the codexes seem short handed not very indepth in terms of lore. While codexes live as more of a rulebook it is largely out of date relatively quickly based on FAQ's and the debacle with the new lord traits we can get that have to be printed out by the consumer (not fun).

While there are other things, I could complain about the space wolves codex is lacking substance, like most of the codexes. Its across the board, which seems to be a theme of 8th. Its great as an introductory though, but with so few books or information about the latest events in Dark Imperium or Indomitus Crusade, we are just sorta stuck in this limbo of "erm.... what is exactly going on and what is different?"

Which seems to be of more bad plot development or the writing team needed more time. Which I wouldn't doubt, I had been hopeful that Ashes of Prospero would at least bring a new character to the space wolves instead of dead characters or useless wolf lords... (deathgaze really?)



Its currently kind of meh. But most space marines are meant to be the training wheels of 40k.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 beir wrote:
Eldar, tyranids, dark eldar, Tau all got quite a bit of customization in choosing "chapter tactics". I'm paying the same for my codex and got much less. I'd rather just be rolled into the vanilla SM codex considering what we got. Just tack the 3 pages of warlord traits, relics, and 5-6 unique stratagems to the vanilla codex and give it to me 15 months earlier.

That reeks of a false dichotomy. Why? Because you're comparing armies that represent ENTIRE FACTIONS to a book that represents a single subfaction. OF COURSE they have more varied tactics. Space Wolves FIGHT LIKE SPACE WOLVES. Any organizational nuance isn't worth noting when it doesn't change the main manner in what a Space Wolves are known for. This like like complaining that oranges only taste like oranges and don't come in a wide array of fruit flavors.

You're crying over not having your cake and getting to eat it to and it's honestly making me think this is just bait to make the ACTUAL Space Wolf players look bad because I refuse to believe someone could legitimately be this self-entitled about their army.

This is like base level of self entitlement nowadays. This forum has become a canker

 SHUPPET wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 beir wrote:
Eldar, tyranids, dark eldar, Tau all got quite a bit of customization in choosing "chapter tactics". I'm paying the same for my codex and got much less. I'd rather just be rolled into the vanilla SM codex considering what we got. Just tack the 3 pages of warlord traits, relics, and 5-6 unique stratagems to the vanilla codex and give it to me 15 months earlier.

That reeks of a false dichotomy. Why? Because you're comparing armies that represent ENTIRE FACTIONS to a book that represents a single subfaction. OF COURSE they have more varied tactics. Space Wolves FIGHT LIKE SPACE WOLVES. Any organizational nuance isn't worth noting when it doesn't change the main manner in what a Space Wolves are known for. This like like complaining that oranges only taste like oranges and don't come in a wide array of fruit flavors.

You're crying over not having your cake and getting to eat it to and it's honestly making me think this is just bait to make the ACTUAL Space Wolf players look bad because I refuse to believe someone could legitimately be this self-entitled about their army.

This is like base level of self entitlement nowadays. This forum has become a canker

between threads like this and "OMG! PAGE 15 HAS A TYPO! GW SUCKS THEY SHOULD GIVE ME THE RULES FOR FREE"

Be thankful we got so much good stuff, as for the fluff we can't expect lots of new fluff. GW are trying their hardest to get all the codex's out. Things won't settle down in eighth for a while, they won't be able to focus on single factions at least until the codex's are out. Out of all the other releases at least we got a new character, plus we get acess to so much stuff now, not just contemptors and cataphractii termies but also SM's stuff like the stalker tank and the interceptor flyer, I'm happy as <REMOVED>. There are some drawbacks from the codex but overall we got off light. Warzone Fenris happened like a few months ago, seriously what else can you expect no other legions have had such an amount of fluff other than the blood angels.

Edited for language - BrookM

I kinda agree with the OP's point that it would've been nice to have seen SW versions of some of the new-to-the-codex units in the colour section - replacing one of the images of Bjorn the Fell-Handed with a Wulfen Dreadnought, for example, or showing the Tartoros/Cataphractii terminators in a SW scheme would've been cool.

I'm a little surprised that the timeline didn't explicitly reference the raid to rescue the original 13th Company from Prospero, as I thought they'd be using that to justify adding the HH gear to the 'dex. It might be that I've missed a reference in the unit entries, as I've not read the book in detail yet.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Be thankful we got so much good stuff, as for the fluff we can't expect lots of new fluff. GW are trying their hardest to get all the codex's out. Things won't settle down in eighth for a while, they won't be able to focus on single factions at least until the codex's are out. Out of all the other releases at least we got a new character, plus we get acess to so much stuff now, not just contemptors and cataphractii termies but also SM's stuff like the stalker tank and the interceptor flyer, I'm happy as <REMOVED>. There are some drawbacks from the codex but overall we got off light. Warzone Fenris happened like a few months ago, seriously what else can you expect no other legions have had such an amount of fluff other than the blood angels.

Edited for language - BrookM

even the blood angels didn't get much fluff, I've been comparing all the marine codices, Blood angels and Dark angels got a little bit of "this is how to bring things up to speed" but other thern that not a whole lot. their codices mostly repeated and clarified info we'd been told already about primarisd Marines. the space wolf codex, as I said, really gives us more info about how they fit into the chapter. It's IMHO the most signfcigent bit of primaris Lore since codex space marines

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Be thankful we got so much good stuff, as for the fluff we can't expect lots of new fluff. GW are trying their hardest to get all the codex's out. Things won't settle down in eighth for a while, they won't be able to focus on single factions at least until the codex's are out. Out of all the other releases at least we got a new character, plus we get acess to so much stuff now, not just contemptors and cataphractii termies but also SM's stuff like the stalker tank and the interceptor flyer, I'm happy as <REMOVED>. There are some drawbacks from the codex but overall we got off light. Warzone Fenris happened like a few months ago, seriously what else can you expect no other legions have had such an amount of fluff other than the blood angels.

Edited for language - BrookM

even the blood angels didn't get much fluff, I've been comparing all the marine codices, Blood angels and Dark angels got a little bit of "this is how to bring things up to speed" but other thern that not a whole lot. their codices mostly repeated and clarified info we'd been told already about primarisd Marines. the space wolf codex, as I said, really gives us more info about how they fit into the chapter. It's IMHO the most signfcigent bit of primaris Lore since codex space marines

Yeah like the lore on the reivers is great, how they ignore all other marines and only buddy up to the wolf scouts etc.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Be thankful we got so much good stuff, as for the fluff we can't expect lots of new fluff. GW are trying their hardest to get all the codex's out. Things won't settle down in eighth for a while, they won't be able to focus on single factions at least until the codex's are out. Out of all the other releases at least we got a new character, plus we get acess to so much stuff now, not just contemptors and cataphractii termies but also SM's stuff like the stalker tank and the interceptor flyer, I'm happy as <REMOVED>. There are some drawbacks from the codex but overall we got off light. Warzone Fenris happened like a few months ago, seriously what else can you expect no other legions have had such an amount of fluff other than the blood angels.

Edited for language - BrookM

even the blood angels didn't get much fluff, I've been comparing all the marine codices, Blood angels and Dark angels got a little bit of "this is how to bring things up to speed" but other thern that not a whole lot. their codices mostly repeated and clarified info we'd been told already about primarisd Marines. the space wolf codex, as I said, really gives us more info about how they fit into the chapter. It's IMHO the most signfcigent bit of primaris Lore since codex space marines

Yeah like the lore on the reivers is great, how they ignore all other marines and only buddy up to the wolf scouts etc.

Agreed. And the fact that they had toi insisute a formalized dueling rules cause blood claws kept picking fights? And the friendly rivalry between intercessor squads and grey hunters etc? it's GREAT. Space Wolves are the first army where you read the codex and feel that "yeah these guys have been added in, are interacting and there are some growing pains as everyone gets used to each other" as opposed to a differant type of marine bolted on

Well, its a pity that the new SW does not fulfill the expectations.
I really liked the 13th Company and I played it in the 3rd ed. Among other things, this made SW unique.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, its a pity that the new SW does not fulfill the expectations.
I really liked the 13th Company and I played it in the 3rd ed. This made SW very unique.

They might and probably will release the 13th in the future (especially since prospero burns and all the new wulfen stuff), so it wouldn't be wise adding a 'make your own' as they want to sell more. I can imagine the 13th being released at the same time as Russ coming back.

beyond the wulfen they didn't make mention of additional elements of the 13th great company. which leads me to suspect the novel takes place after the date at which the codex is set...

that or GW's fallen off the track of making sure their novels tie into their game material which would be annoying as they where showing such strong signs of doing better in that regard.

Complains about smaller options, still has options.

What are other factions supposed to say:$
Orkz for exemple got reduced to 1 playstyle. Green tide. The rest of the Index entries is just there to give you the ilusion of an index.
GSC?
Or the worst of them All FW index armies?
R&H lost literally 95% of options, might i add an army built around customization.

Krieg lost masssively aswell, additionally their orders are questionable.

I mean the OP is like super wrong on all accounts, but naming armies that don't have codices or proper FW entries isn't exactly fair.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I mean the OP is like super wrong on all accounts, but naming armies that don't have codices or proper FW entries isn't exactly fair.

Are you suggesting that FW brings out a proper rework for those armies?
Because it certainly does not look like that.

Edit: Even in regards to codex factions:
Necrons and Grey knights seem and are way worse off then SW.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I mean the OP is like super wrong on all accounts, but naming armies that don't have codices or proper FW entries isn't exactly fair.

Are you suggesting that FW brings out a proper rework for those armies?
Because it certainly does not look like that.

Edit: Even in regards to codex factions:
Necrons and Grey knights seem and are way worse off then SW.

It'll take FW a while I admit. They're going through some changes right now.

Also yeah the more I've been playing Necrons the more I've been getting frustrated. However, Grey Knights don't count towards the discussion as we've all just been playing them wrong per Reece, and we had a super smart player on this forum who found out about how awesome Crowe is.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I mean the OP is like super wrong on all accounts, but naming armies that don't have codices or proper FW entries isn't exactly fair.

Are you suggesting that FW brings out a proper rework for those armies?
Because it certainly does not look like that.

Edit: Even in regards to codex factions:
Necrons and Grey knights seem and are way worse off then SW.

It'll take FW a while I admit. They're going through some changes right now.

Also yeah the more I've been playing Necrons the more I've been getting frustrated. However, Grey Knights don't count towards the discussion as we've all just been playing them wrong per Reece, and we had a super smart player on this forum who found out about how awesome Crowe is.

Half those FW armies can consider themselves to be lucky if they exist by the end of 8th anymore.
Especially Elysians and R&H.
I sincerly hope that was a joke in regards to the GK's.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I mean the OP is like super wrong on all accounts, but naming armies that don't have codices or proper FW entries isn't exactly fair.

Are you suggesting that FW brings out a proper rework for those armies?
Because it certainly does not look like that.

Edit: Even in regards to codex factions:
Necrons and Grey knights seem and are way worse off then SW.

It'll take FW a while I admit. They're going through some changes right now.

Also yeah the more I've been playing Necrons the more I've been getting frustrated. However, Grey Knights don't count towards the discussion as we've all just been playing them wrong per Reece, and we had a super smart player on this forum who found out about how awesome Crowe is.

Half those FW armies can consider themselves to be lucky if they exist by the end of 8th anymore.
Especially Elysians and R&H.
I sincerly hope that was a joke in regards to the GK's.

I mean have you seen me defend Crowe's fluff and crunch once? Like ever?

Nope, i can't say i have.

 beir wrote:
The Space Wolves Codex Sucks.

I'm not talking about competitive power level. I mean that it sucks from a fluff point of view compared to where we left off in 7th edition. By the time the War Zone Fenris book came out, we were given formations that reflected the unique fighting style of each of the Great Companies. We had a large, varied set of relics (12 in total, double what we have now) and psychic powers (30 total from 5 different disciplines). Formations could be used to make your army feel like an Iron Wolves armored column, a Blackmanes shock troop force, or an elite company of the Great Wolf himself.

Now, we feel more like vanilla marines than ever before. I know some people on this forum think that SW should just be part of the base SM codex, but if GW is going to sell me a whole different book and make me wait months for it, why does it feel like we're taking several steps back from last edition? What were we waiting for? I don't think it should've taken them so long to copy/paste the SM codex and add 3-4 pages of stratagems, warlord traits, and relics. They didn't even bother painting up a 'Primaris Wolf Priest', whatever that is (it certainly doesn't look like a Primaris Apothecary or Chaplain). What does a 'Primaris Rune Priest' look like? A baby blue librarian? No way.

Looking through the codex, the only new painted models they show are 5 Intercessors, 5 hellblasters, 5 reivers, a redemptor dreadnought and 3 aggressors. I would've appreciated some tips on converting the bland primaris stuff to fit into my army better.

The fluff section has 3 tiny paragraphs on primaris marines in the SW timeline section. That's it. They added some unit descriptions, but no fluff about how the rest of the chapter views primaris, how they integrated into the great companies, etc.

I can't help but be very underwhelmed by this codex. It feels like I paid $40 for 3 pages at the back beyond what I already had in my index and one of those pages was a misprint.

Formations have gone - and good riddance.

Primaris are the thing now.

Wow so entitled. Some actual factions still have not their Dex - Orks, Genestealers, Sister of battle /Silence

Oh no because we are the special snowflake marines its not fair we ONLY get our own Codex, our own special variant Primaris models - never mind its more than what most factions got - count all the NEW models they got.

The main argument people are making in this thread against my point is that 'it's as good as the other codices'. Well, maybe all of the 8th edition codices suck then.

At the very least, the SM subfaction codices are bad compared to the non-subfaction books.

If the argument is 'you shouldn't complain because it's as good as Blood Angels and Dark Angels' I don't buy it - they deserved better as well.

Blood Angels should've gotten warlord traits and relics for their successor chapters and some successor-specific stratagems.

Dark Angels should've gotten additional relics and warlord traits that were specific to Deathwing and Ravenwing at the least.

If you were to take away the fact that SW is a subfaction of SM, count the amount of rules content in this codex and compare it to any other non-subfaction codex, we got less. So did BA and DA. Seriously, just roll the SM subfactions into a book together next time. At least then they could justify a full-price book.

As for GW apologists saying 'you should be thankful you got anything at all!', why? What kind of Stockholm syndrome crap is that? Give me a break.

 beir wrote:
The main argument people are making in this thread against my point is that 'it's as good as the other codices'. Well, maybe all of the 8th edition codices suck then.

At the very least, the SM subfaction codices are bad compared to the non-subfaction books.

If the argument is 'you shouldn't complain because it's as good as Blood Angels and Dark Angels' I don't buy it - they deserved better as well.

Blood Angels should've gotten warlord traits and relics for their successor chapters and some successor-specific stratagems.

Dark Angels should've gotten additional relics and warlord traits that were specific to Deathwing and Ravenwing at the least.

If you were to take away the fact that SW is a subfaction of SM, count the amount of rules content in this codex and compare it to any other non-subfaction codex, we got less. So did BA and DA. Seriously, just roll the SM subfactions into a book together next time. At least then they could justify a full-price book.

As for GW apologists saying 'you should be thankful you got anything at all!', why? What kind of Stockholm syndrome crap is that? Give me a break.

We have CC units like Wulfen and TWC as well as Long ranged units like Aggressors, Inceptors, Hellblasters. We have all the old units plus Intessesors with great weapon choices, we have reivers that can traverse any terrain etc. which is good for certain missions like cities. If you can't make a competitive list with that then you have the problem, its not the codex.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 beir wrote:
The main argument people are making in this thread against my point is that 'it's as good as the other codices'. Well, maybe all of the 8th edition codices suck then.

At the very least, the SM subfaction codices are bad compared to the non-subfaction books.

If the argument is 'you shouldn't complain because it's as good as Blood Angels and Dark Angels' I don't buy it - they deserved better as well.

Blood Angels should've gotten warlord traits and relics for their successor chapters and some successor-specific stratagems.

Dark Angels should've gotten additional relics and warlord traits that were specific to Deathwing and Ravenwing at the least.

If you were to take away the fact that SW is a subfaction of SM, count the amount of rules content in this codex and compare it to any other non-subfaction codex, we got less. So did BA and DA. Seriously, just roll the SM subfactions into a book together next time. At least then they could justify a full-price book.

As for GW apologists saying 'you should be thankful you got anything at all!', why? What kind of Stockholm syndrome crap is that? Give me a break.

We have CC units like Wulfen and TWC as well as Long ranged units like Aggressors, Inceptors, Hellblasters. We have all the old units plus Intessesors with great weapon choices, we have reivers that can traverse any terrain etc. which is good for certain missions like cities. If you can't make a competitive list with that then you have the problem, its not the codex.

I'm not talking about competitive list building at all.

I have to agree that the idea that we should be somehow grateful that a company produces a product is ludicrous - though definitely not Stockholm Syndrome or even anything like it - I can't agree with anything else you've said.

Return the product if you don't like it. GW don't owe you - or anyone else - anything.

Welcome to another “got your $40 sucka!” Brought to you by The new and improved GW.

Hey! At least they post on facebook now right???!?

If you don't like it, go play Horus Heresy or 7th edition, whining won't solve your complex.

 vaklor4 wrote:
If you don't like it, go play Horus Heresy or 7th edition, whining won't solve your complex.

Feel the love for GW. If you don’t like the product YOU ARE THE PROBLEM.

 beir wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 beir wrote:
The main argument people are making in this thread against my point is that 'it's as good as the other codices'. Well, maybe all of the 8th edition codices suck then.

At the very least, the SM subfaction codices are bad compared to the non-subfaction books.

If the argument is 'you shouldn't complain because it's as good as Blood Angels and Dark Angels' I don't buy it - they deserved better as well.

Blood Angels should've gotten warlord traits and relics for their successor chapters and some successor-specific stratagems.

Dark Angels should've gotten additional relics and warlord traits that were specific to Deathwing and Ravenwing at the least.

If you were to take away the fact that SW is a subfaction of SM, count the amount of rules content in this codex and compare it to any other non-subfaction codex, we got less. So did BA and DA. Seriously, just roll the SM subfactions into a book together next time. At least then they could justify a full-price book.

As for GW apologists saying 'you should be thankful you got anything at all!', why? What kind of Stockholm syndrome crap is that? Give me a break.

We have CC units like Wulfen and TWC as well as Long ranged units like Aggressors, Inceptors, Hellblasters. We have all the old units plus Intessesors with great weapon choices, we have reivers that can traverse any terrain etc. which is good for certain missions like cities. If you can't make a competitive list with that then you have the problem, its not the codex.

I'm not talking about competitive list building at all.

Nah what they're talking about is that raven guard for example get 1 chapter tactic, 1 warlord trait and 1 relic, where as space wolves got more than this and their own book with unique units.

So because of this the book should cost less than it does for a raven guard player, and that deathwatch, grey knights, dark angels and blood angels should be in it too with 1 trait, 1 relic and 1 tactic and no unique stuff too!

Pancakey wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
If you don't like it, go play Horus Heresy or 7th edition, whining won't solve your complex.

Feel the love for GW. If you don’t like the product YOU ARE THE PROBLEM.

How come you (correctly) identify that you owe GW nothing, but believe that GW should cater to you?

What kind of doublethink is that?

You live in a capitalist society. Don't buy products you don't like. Super simple.

I'm the first to point out when GW are taking a dump on us, but I have yet to hear a cohesive and logical reason for why this codex sucks. He says there is no new lore with Primaris, yet there is new lore with Primaris and how they integrate with current Rout. There are no Wolfy Primaris, yes GW can't realese everything you want on your time schedule, they are a business. Convert, which is what I do. We will get Primaris wolfy versions of our own when they release our unique models. Plus from a lore point of view its barely been 200 years since the Indomitus crusade, chapters haven't even had time to see if these new Primaris even work under their own forces as if they are going to bring in Primaris and from day one say you are bearclaw aggressors, they shove new recruits like blood claws and say go have at it, in for no reason at all. They have to have time to try out new Primaris units with new tactics other than original versions.

I'm not being a fanboy for GW, far from it in fact. I'm one of the guys boycotting the purchase of their products until next year over the forgeworld crap.

But whining won't fix a codex, and it won't get you your dream codex. If you prefer 7th edition, play 7th. Don't tell people their edition and codexes are inferior.

In my opinion, stripping down the psychic powers, formations and play styles is a GOOD thing. Make your own play style, don't wait for GW to cater to your snowflake division.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I'm the first to point out when GW are taking a dump on us, but I have yet to hear a cohesive and logical reason for why this codex sucks. He says there is no new lore with Primaris, yet there is new lore with Primaris and how they integrate with current Rout. There are no Wolfy Primaris, yes GW can't realese everything you want on your time schedule, they are a business. Convert, which is what I do. We will get Primaris wolfy versions of our own when they release our unique models. Plus from a lore point of view its barely been 200 years since the Indomitus crusade, chapters haven't even had time to see if these new Primaris even work under their own forces as if they are going to bring in Primaris and from day one say you are bearclaw aggressors, they shove new recruits like blood claws and say go have at it, in for no reason at all. They have to have time to try out new Primaris units with new tactics other than original versions.

Also, there is a Space Wolves upgrade kit. That's about as far as i'll ever probably see it go, but as far as I can tell, primaris space wolves are supported.

 vaklor4 wrote:
I'm not being a fanboy for GW, far from it in fact. I'm one of the guys boycotting the purchase of their products until next year over the forgeworld crap.

But whining won't fix a codex, and it won't get you your dream codex. If you prefer 7th edition, play 7th. Don't tell people their edition and codexes are inferior.

In my opinion, stripping down the psychic powers, formations and play styles is a GOOD thing. Make your own play style, don't wait for GW to cater to your snowflake division.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I'm the first to point out when GW are taking a dump on us, but I have yet to hear a cohesive and logical reason for why this codex sucks. He says there is no new lore with Primaris, yet there is new lore with Primaris and how they integrate with current Rout. There are no Wolfy Primaris, yes GW can't realese everything you want on your time schedule, they are a business. Convert, which is what I do. We will get Primaris wolfy versions of our own when they release our unique models. Plus from a lore point of view its barely been 200 years since the Indomitus crusade, chapters haven't even had time to see if these new Primaris even work under their own forces as if they are going to bring in Primaris and from day one say you are bearclaw aggressors, they shove new recruits like blood claws and say go have at it, in for no reason at all. They have to have time to try out new Primaris units with new tactics other than original versions.

Also, there is a Space Wolves upgrade kit. That's about as far as i'll ever probably see it go, but as far as I can tell, primaris space wolves are supported.

Whats the FW crap?

For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

Not a SW player, but isn't the problem with the primaris in their codex, not the fact that they are in it, but that GW gave a stupid explanation why they took them in? Guys that did play SW here told me, I know not the best kind of an argument, that SW gene seed works only with fenrisian human. Cawls SW primaris would either have to be ultramarine geneseed bearers, or die durning the proces of implanation. Same with Primaris Officers,wolf priests are picked out of Long Fangs by other priests, there is no way for a 100year old primaris to become a wolf priest. Rune Priest spend 50 fenrisian years as skalds, so there would be no way for a primaris psyker to be old enough to leave the novitate to become a full fledged priest. Plus a Priest would have to take a primaris in as a pupil,because they only take people in through co optation.
From what people say about the SW fluff here and at my store. It looks like the codexs fluff was writen by someone who didn't knew much about SW fluff, was told to implement primaris in to the codex no matter what, and just wrote stuff he or she thought to be "cool". It is like a fanfiction made legal by GW, or the last jedi.

Isn't that just the problem with Primaris in general, though?

You have a society that's notably suspicious of new technology and new things and always on the lookout for corruption, but who then suddenly welcome Primaris marines with open arms and don't ask questions about their dodgy origins 'cause you can't copyright 'space marine'.

Karol wrote:
Not a SW player, but isn't the problem with the primaris in their codex, not the fact that they are in it, but that GW gave a stupid explanation why they took them in? Guys that did play SW here told me, I know not the best kind of an argument, that SW gene seed works only with fenrisian human. Cawls SW primaris would either have to be ultramarine geneseed bearers, or die durning the proces of implanation. Same with Primaris Officers,wolf priests are picked out of Long Fangs by other priests, there is no way for a 100year old primaris to become a wolf priest. Rune Priest spend 50 fenrisian years as skalds, so there would be no way for a primaris psyker to be old enough to leave the novitate to become a full fledged priest. Plus a Priest would have to take a primaris in as a pupil,because they only take people in through co optation.
From what people say about the SW fluff here and at my store. It looks like the codexs fluff was writen by someone who didn't knew much about SW fluff, was told to implement primaris in to the codex no matter what, and just wrote stuff he or she thought to be "cool". It is like a fanfiction made legal by GW, or the last jedi.

Not true! The original VI Legion had members from a wide range of sources before Russ was found (to include Terra), so the problem seems to be the geneseed was tainted over time by Ferensian stock to only work on Ferensians. Additionally, Cawl used Ferensians to make the Primaris Wolves too.

And let's not forget that these guys were fighting up to a hundred years before rejoining the boys on Fenris and it's been a good chunk of time since then. I think in total the older Primaris have about 300 years of combat experiance now? Even if it's only 200, it's still enough to meet requirements.

No, the real complaint should be that we didn't get anything about the only confirmed Space Wolf successors out of the Primaris. Where the heck is the Wolfspear!?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Isn't that just the problem with Primaris in general, though?

You have a society that's notably suspicious of new technology and new things and always on the lookout for corruption, but who then suddenly welcome Primaris marines with open arms and don't ask questions about their dodgy origins 'cause you can't copyright 'space marine'.

First off, the issue is trademarks, not copyrights. And that was solved by officially claiming "Adeptus Astartes" as a trademark to fix the issue. Primaris Marines seem to take their name from the fact that they have a Primarch organ implanted into them.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
I'm not being a fanboy for GW, far from it in fact. I'm one of the guys boycotting the purchase of their products until next year over the forgeworld crap.

But whining won't fix a codex, and it won't get you your dream codex. If you prefer 7th edition, play 7th. Don't tell people their edition and codexes are inferior.

In my opinion, stripping down the psychic powers, formations and play styles is a GOOD thing. Make your own play style, don't wait for GW to cater to your snowflake division.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I'm the first to point out when GW are taking a dump on us, but I have yet to hear a cohesive and logical reason for why this codex sucks. He says there is no new lore with Primaris, yet there is new lore with Primaris and how they integrate with current Rout. There are no Wolfy Primaris, yes GW can't realese everything you want on your time schedule, they are a business. Convert, which is what I do. We will get Primaris wolfy versions of our own when they release our unique models. Plus from a lore point of view its barely been 200 years since the Indomitus crusade, chapters haven't even had time to see if these new Primaris even work under their own forces as if they are going to bring in Primaris and from day one say you are bearclaw aggressors, they shove new recruits like blood claws and say go have at it, in for no reason at all. They have to have time to try out new Primaris units with new tactics other than original versions.

Also, there is a Space Wolves upgrade kit. That's about as far as i'll ever probably see it go, but as far as I can tell, primaris space wolves are supported.

Whats the FW crap?

Have you not seen the price increase posts and threads all over the internet over FW's new policy? Kinda hard to avoid.

This thread seems odd. None of what happened was surprising or a shock.
I don't like Primaris or the loss of formations or most of the newer lore. But that wasn't going to be changed with this codex so I didn't buy it.

Why did you?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

First off, the issue is trademarks, not copyrights. And that was solved by officially claiming "Adeptus Astartes" as a trademark to fix the issue. Primaris Marines seem to take their name from the fact that they have a Primarch organ implanted into them.

Copyrights and trademarks are largely indistinguishable to the layperson so when I'm around laypeople I use the layterm 'copyright' to cover all aspects of IP.

Whether Adeptus Astartes works or not remains to be seen. Space Marine used to have a TM after it, too. A claim means nothing.

Here are some cheese and crackers.

Did you seriously think you were going to get some kind of "special" codex after the Space Marine, Dark Angel, and Blood Angel codex? There are no surprises here, even the "mistake" in the Saga's that GW has errata'ed before the book even came out.

Hey, there you go. You got something special that no other Space Marine chapter has: Saga's.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

First off, the issue is trademarks, not copyrights. And that was solved by officially claiming "Adeptus Astartes" as a trademark to fix the issue. Primaris Marines seem to take their name from the fact that they have a Primarch organ implanted into them.

Copyrights and trademarks are largely indistinguishable to the layperson so when I'm around laypeople I use the layterm 'copyright' to cover all aspects of IP.

Good catch though, officer. Write it down in your notebook.

Whether Adeptus Astartes works or not remains to be seen. Space Marine used to have a TM after it, too. A claim means nothing.

Sorry, after the Chapterhouse fiasco and Spots the Space Marine I've developed a sort of annoyance for when people mix the two things up since, legally speaking, they are very different from each other (trademarks don't expire for example). And unlike "Space Marine", "Adeptus Astartes" is unique enough to be upheld in court since GW is the only one using that term for marketing and it wasn't really a public lexicon thing before hand.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

Because they always are.

Martel732 wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

Because they always are.

Except when they aren't. Like restricting them from the anti-flyer tanks and certain varieties of terminator armour for no valid reason.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

First off, the issue is trademarks, not copyrights. And that was solved by officially claiming "Adeptus Astartes" as a trademark to fix the issue. Primaris Marines seem to take their name from the fact that they have a Primarch organ implanted into them.

Copyrights and trademarks are largely indistinguishable to the layperson so when I'm around laypeople I use the layterm 'copyright' to cover all aspects of IP.

Good catch though, officer. Write it down in your notebook.

Whether Adeptus Astartes works or not remains to be seen. Space Marine used to have a TM after it, too. A claim means nothing.

Sorry, after the Chapterhouse fiasco and Spots the Space Marine I've developed a sort of annoyance for when people mix the two things up since, legally speaking, they are very different from each other (trademarks don't expire for example). And unlike "Space Marine", "Adeptus Astartes" is unique enough to be upheld in court since GW is the only one using that term for marketing and it wasn't really a public lexicon thing before hand.

De nada.

For my part, after the Chapter House fiasco I've gotten rather sick of every armchair IP lawyer on every 40k forum pointlessly policing IP terminology, so that's why my response formerly included some snarkiness.

Apologies. I guess we both assumed.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

Because they always are.

Except when they aren't. Like restricting them from the anti-flyer tanks and certain varieties of terminator armour for no valid reason.

Maybe those pages were just stuck together from all the developer goo.

Martel732 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

Because they always are.

Except when they aren't. Like restricting them from the anti-flyer tanks and certain varieties of terminator armour for no valid reason.

Maybe those pages were just stuck together from all the developer goo.

No. Just no.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

Because they always are.

Except when they aren't. Like restricting them from the anti-flyer tanks and certain varieties of terminator armour for no valid reason.

Yeah heaven forbid the Vanilla codex have stuff kept unique to them huh?

Yeah i'll trade useless terminators and marginal aa tanks for 7th ed twc. I think the sw came out on top there, just as they always do.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

Because they always are.

Except when they aren't. Like restricting them from the anti-flyer tanks and certain varieties of terminator armour for no valid reason.

Yeah heaven forbid the Vanilla codex have stuff kept unique to them huh?

I was just saying they weren't the golden sons who got everything (other than meme status as they wolfed their wolves across wolfing tables to wolf tournaments) and were left out in the cold (insert Fenris reference here) a number of times on new releases.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

Because they always are.

Except when they aren't. Like restricting them from the anti-flyer tanks and certain varieties of terminator armour for no valid reason.

Yeah heaven forbid the Vanilla codex have stuff kept unique to them huh?

So... you want unique 'vanilla'?

It's a bold strategy, Cotton.

I can definitely see how 'vanilla' marines should have unique SCs, Traits and Strategems, like every Faction does, but I cannot for the life of me think of a single decent reason why basic SM tech wouldn't be available to all Chapters.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

Because they always are.

Except when they aren't. Like restricting them from the anti-flyer tanks and certain varieties of terminator armour for no valid reason.

Yeah heaven forbid the Vanilla codex have stuff kept unique to them huh?

So... you want unique 'vanilla'?

It's a bold strategy, Cotton.

I can definitely see how 'vanilla' marines should have unique SCs, Traits and Strategems, like every Faction does, but I cannot for the life of me think of a single decent reason why basic SM tech wouldn't be available to all Chapters.

And that's the excuse to keep Blood and Dark Angels as separate codices. I'm annoyed by that too I promise.

I can live with Vanilla Marines being the baseline and the less codex compliant chapters being that baseline plus their unique stuff, but considering that even codex chapters tend to have things that take them beyond the codex (Tyrannic War Vets for example), I feel like there should be a unit or two for each of the codex chapters that is unique to that chapter. Just something to give them a bit more flavor and variety while not straying into "needs a whole codex to hold all their extra stuff" territory.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

And that's the excuse to keep Blood and Dark Angels as separate codices. I'm annoyed by that too I promise.

Ok.

You can't have 'unique' 'vanilla'. It's a contradiction in terms.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

And that's the excuse to keep Blood and Dark Angels as separate codices. I'm annoyed by that too I promise.

Ok.

You can't have 'unique' 'vanilla'. It's a contradiction in terms.

Vanilla is its own unique flavor, compared to Chocolate or Strawberry for Dark and Blood Angels. Some things will be the same but they're different. What GW just did by throwing a bunch of Vanilla unique items in their codices was basically give those flavors a vanilla swirl. So why are you going to have Vanilla by itself now?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

And that's the excuse to keep Blood and Dark Angels as separate codices. I'm annoyed by that too I promise.

Ok.

You can't have 'unique' 'vanilla'. It's a contradiction in terms.

Vanilla is its own unique flavor, compared to Chocolate or Strawberry for Dark and Blood Angels. Some things will be the same but they're different. What GW just did by throwing a bunch of Vanilla unique items in their codices was basically give those flavors a vanilla swirl. So why are you going to have Vanilla by itself now?

Probably to keep the size of the book down. If all the Astartes who have a splash to swirl of vanilla were added to the regular vanilla book we'd have a Neapolitan tome of options, and a higher price tag and longer development time to match.

There are just too many extra things that exist in those books to mix them into the regular Marine book anymore without going the route of forcing people to buy two books (the Astartes one and then a supplement book) to make it work without overdoing the main book.

Basically it's just too many flavors to go that far. Heck at this point I almost want to kick the Ultramarines out of the codex to be their own thing and let the less codex compliant chapter get their own Guillimanless book.

Chaos has its own seperate codexes for Thousand Sons, Deathguard, (Soon Khorne), Chaos Space Marines / Regenades, and soon Slaanesh (Emperor's Children).

WE'd hope that each space marine codex that is now the normal codex is as different from one another as the chaos codexes are.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Chaos has its own seperate codexes for Thousand Sons, Deathguard, (Soon Khorne), Chaos Space Marines / Regenades, and soon Slaanesh (Emperor's Children).

WE'd hope that each space marine codex that is now the normal codex is as different from one another as the chaos codexes are.

Unlike Chaos who jealously guards it's secrets, the Imperium is based on standard template construction meaning that for the most part everyone should have the same core for their army in a given faction with only the special stuff taking it in new and different ways. The core of the Imperial faction limits diversity to an extent and it really comes down to "Vanilla + stuff" in the setting.

Dang, why is everyone so hostile to the OP? I don't play marines so I have no idea what's in the codexes, but there's no need treat him like he's what's wrong with the world. Besides his opinion isn't even that wrong imo. It's just that there was very little relative value from switching between index to codex for basically anyone. Points tweaks and some unique abilities don't really cover $40. This does go back to the rules needing to be free if GW wants to have a living edition. But that's just me.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Chaos has its own seperate codexes for Thousand Sons, Deathguard, (Soon Khorne), Chaos Space Marines / Regenades, and soon Slaanesh (Emperor's Children).

WE'd hope that each space marine codex that is now the normal codex is as different from one another as the chaos codexes are.

Unlike Chaos who jealously guards it's secrets, the Imperium is based on standard template construction meaning that for the most part everyone should have the same core for their army in a given faction with only the special stuff taking it in new and different ways. The core of the Imperial faction limits diversity to an extent and it really comes down to "Vanilla + stuff" in the setting.

Honestly I would love to play 30k Legion in 40k. And if they could bridge that gap they would make so much money.

Like a Unified Dark Angels Legion using legion tactics would give so much interesting diversity to the marines as the way marines fought in 30k is very different.

I dislike the current gw strategy of removing the uniqueness from a chapter codex.

The reality is that space marines are all bad codex in this sense. They are all elites forces with dynamic fighting styles that are not represented in the codex at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also - anyone claiming that space wolves are a bad codex in terms of power level are totally insane. All their power units got better. Wolfen dreads are totally insane. 6 inch heroic intervention is insane. Hitting on 2's in Melle is insane. 6" -1 to hit auras are insane. 50 point drops on flyers is insane. They are going to outperform every space marine chapter by a long shot.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The reality is that space marines are all bad codex in this sense. They are all elites forces with dynamic fighting styles that are not represented in the codex at all.

Agreed.

Each (First Founding) First Chapters all have different fighting styles as emphasized in 30k, and in the fluff.

Dark Angels are ranged fighters with their *wings*

Blood Angels are the Vanguard

Space Wolves are the beatstick and that is not represented at all apart from strategems.

We cannot take what made them very unique or gave them character. The Marine Codexes though have always been the 'baby' armies which sucks but this edition has made them less and less viable to play with each new codex.

Dandelion wrote:
Dang, why is everyone so hostile to the OP? I don't play marines so I have no idea what's in the codexes, but there's no need treat him like he's what's wrong with the world. Besides his opinion isn't even that wrong imo. It's just that there was very little relative value from switching between index to codex for basically anyone. Points tweaks and some unique abilities don't really cover $40. This does go back to the rules needing to be free if GW wants to have a living edition. But that's just me.

We're 20 codexes into this edition counting Space Wolves and somehow he inflated expectations to an unreasonable level and blames GW for not catering to his desires.

We were never going to get formations as a mass release of strategems. There wasn't enough new stuff to show off beyond mini-marine kits we already had being given to the Wolves too, and while the points values are the most obvious change, the massed addition of new relics, SAGAS (which work differently than warlord traits in ANY OTHER ARMY), strategems and a gak ton of new lore (including the most indepth look at how Primaris work in a chapter we've go to date). Did they get a lot new in terms of rules? No. There wasn't much you could add when you're not adding new stuff to the game as a whole. But in terms of the most overall update to a single faction, they got what is basically the most extensive updates we've got date.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Honestly I would love to play 30k Legion in 40k. And if they could bridge that gap they would make so much money

I feel like the Primaris Marines are the best way for them to bridge in Legion style army options, especially considering the way the Primaris run units being very similar to how Legions run units.

That said, I'm marking my Imperial Fists up like the VII Legion regardless.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
Dang, why is everyone so hostile to the OP? I don't play marines so I have no idea what's in the codexes, but there's no need treat him like he's what's wrong with the world. Besides his opinion isn't even that wrong imo. It's just that there was very little relative value from switching between index to codex for basically anyone. Points tweaks and some unique abilities don't really cover $40. This does go back to the rules needing to be free if GW wants to have a living edition. But that's just me.

We're 20 codexes into this edition counting Space Wolves and somehow he inflated expectations to an unreasonable level and blames GW for not catering to his desires.

We were never going to get formations as a mass release of strategems. There wasn't enough new stuff to show off beyond mini-marine kits we already had being given to the Wolves too, and while the points values are the most obvious change, the massed addition of new relics, SAGAS (which work differently than warlord traits in ANY OTHER ARMY), strategems and a gak ton of new lore (including the most indepth look at how Primaris work in a chapter we've go to date). Did they get a lot new in terms of rules? No. There wasn't much you could add when you're not adding new stuff to the game as a whole. But in terms of the most overall update to a single faction, they got what is basically the most extensive updates we've got date.

Well, it almost sounded like this was his first codex after being index only. If it is, then I can understand some inflated expectations. As for the update, codexes are just poor value in general. Minor points tweaks, some faction abilities (stratagems, relics) and that's about it. This doesn't mean the SW codex is worse, just that it's also a victim of GW's rules distribution policy.

We've got 20 codexes (going on 21 in Orktober) in the span of two years. If they weren't a little weak in terms of updates over the indexes and lacking massive releases of new units I would have been a lot more shocked.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
We've got 20 codexes (going on 21 in Orktober) in the span of two years. If they weren't a little weak in terms of updates over the indexes and lacking massive releases of new units I would have been a lot more shocked.

See, now that's [Expletive Deleted].

Why should we be grateful that GW were forced to rush codexes as a result of their own lack of foresight? We should accept mistakes and lessened content because they couldn't do the job properly or, more likely, didn't want to pay to get the job done right first time?

Nah. GW is not doing us a favour by releasing products.

I feel like the Primaris Marines are the best way for them to bridge in Legion style army options, especially considering the way the Primaris run units being very similar to how Legions run units.

That said, I'm marking my Imperial Fists up like the VII Legion regardless

I'm more saying : "Lets have forgeworld 30k armies be viable in 40k as well"

It would be cool but we'll see.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Karol wrote:
Not a SW player, but isn't the problem with the primaris in their codex, not the fact that they are in it, but that GW gave a stupid explanation why they took them in? Guys that did play SW here told me, I know not the best kind of an argument, that SW gene seed works only with fenrisian human. Cawls SW primaris would either have to be ultramarine geneseed bearers, or die durning the proces of implanation. Same with Primaris Officers,wolf priests are picked out of Long Fangs by other priests, there is no way for a 100year old primaris to become a wolf priest. Rune Priest spend 50 fenrisian years as skalds, so there would be no way for a primaris psyker to be old enough to leave the novitate to become a full fledged priest. Plus a Priest would have to take a primaris in as a pupil,because they only take people in through co optation.
From what people say about the SW fluff here and at my store. It looks like the codexs fluff was writen by someone who didn't knew much about SW fluff, was told to implement primaris in to the codex no matter what, and just wrote stuff he or she thought to be "cool". It is like a fanfiction made legal by GW, or the last jedi.

Not true! The original VI Legion had members from a wide range of sources before Russ was found (to include Terra), so the problem seems to be the geneseed was tainted over time by Ferensian stock to only work on Ferensians. Additionally, Cawl used Ferensians to make the Primaris Wolves too.

And let's not forget that these guys were fighting up to a hundred years before rejoining the boys on Fenris and it's been a good chunk of time since then. I think in total the older Primaris have about 300 years of combat experiance now? Even if it's only 200, it's still enough to meet requirements.

No, the real complaint should be that we didn't get anything about the only confirmed Space Wolf successors out of the Primaris. Where the heck is the Wolfspear!?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Isn't that just the problem with Primaris in general, though?

You have a society that's notably suspicious of new technology and new things and always on the lookout for corruption, but who then suddenly welcome Primaris marines with open arms and don't ask questions about their dodgy origins 'cause you can't copyright 'space marine'.

First off, the issue is trademarks, not copyrights. And that was solved by officially claiming "Adeptus Astartes" as a trademark to fix the issue. Primaris Marines seem to take their name from the fact that they have a Primarch organ implanted into them.

The geneseed wasn't tainted over time, it was tainted from the start, the 13th knew and Bulveye tried to hide it from Russ but Russ already knew.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Karol wrote:
Not a SW player, but isn't the problem with the primaris in their codex, not the fact that they are in it, but that GW gave a stupid explanation why they took them in? Guys that did play SW here told me, I know not the best kind of an argument, that SW gene seed works only with fenrisian human. Cawls SW primaris would either have to be ultramarine geneseed bearers, or die durning the proces of implanation. Same with Primaris Officers,wolf priests are picked out of Long Fangs by other priests, there is no way for a 100year old primaris to become a wolf priest. Rune Priest spend 50 fenrisian years as skalds, so there would be no way for a primaris psyker to be old enough to leave the novitate to become a full fledged priest. Plus a Priest would have to take a primaris in as a pupil,because they only take people in through co optation.
From what people say about the SW fluff here and at my store. It looks like the codexs fluff was writen by someone who didn't knew much about SW fluff, was told to implement primaris in to the codex no matter what, and just wrote stuff he or she thought to be "cool". It is like a fanfiction made legal by GW, or the last jedi.

Not true! The original VI Legion had members from a wide range of sources before Russ was found (to include Terra), so the problem seems to be the geneseed was tainted over time by Ferensian stock to only work on Ferensians. Additionally, Cawl used Ferensians to make the Primaris Wolves too.

And let's not forget that these guys were fighting up to a hundred years before rejoining the boys on Fenris and it's been a good chunk of time since then. I think in total the older Primaris have about 300 years of combat experiance now? Even if it's only 200, it's still enough to meet requirements.

No, the real complaint should be that we didn't get anything about the only confirmed Space Wolf successors out of the Primaris. Where the heck is the Wolfspear!?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Isn't that just the problem with Primaris in general, though?

You have a society that's notably suspicious of new technology and new things and always on the lookout for corruption, but who then suddenly welcome Primaris marines with open arms and don't ask questions about their dodgy origins 'cause you can't copyright 'space marine'.

First off, the issue is trademarks, not copyrights. And that was solved by officially claiming "Adeptus Astartes" as a trademark to fix the issue. Primaris Marines seem to take their name from the fact that they have a Primarch organ implanted into them.

The geneseed wasn't tainted over time, it was tainted from the start, the 13th knew and Bulveye tried to hide it from Russ but Russ already knew.

the fact that the curse first appered in the 13th company makes me suspect the taint went in when they started applying the canis Helix to adults.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
We've got 20 codexes (going on 21 in Orktober) in the span of two years. If they weren't a little weak in terms of updates over the indexes and lacking massive releases of new units I would have been a lot more shocked.

except they're not weak at all. Unless you mean from a "new units" POV. In fact I'd argue that the codices right now are, when taken together, the best we've gotten from GW since I started playing, with one or two notable exceptions the balance of power between the codexes is MUCH MUCH more even. sure some codices are better then others, but by and large, we're in a better condition then past editions that way. Which to my mind is the OPs problem. he didn't want an army "on par" with everyone else. he wanted to be better in every way. Given his focus on formations etc I kinda wonder if he's a newer 40k player who just liked that space wolves where the "better then space marines in every way" codex.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Karol wrote:
Not a SW player, but isn't the problem with the primaris in their codex, not the fact that they are in it, but that GW gave a stupid explanation why they took them in? Guys that did play SW here told me, I know not the best kind of an argument, that SW gene seed works only with fenrisian human. Cawls SW primaris would either have to be ultramarine geneseed bearers, or die durning the proces of implanation. Same with Primaris Officers,wolf priests are picked out of Long Fangs by other priests, there is no way for a 100year old primaris to become a wolf priest. Rune Priest spend 50 fenrisian years as skalds, so there would be no way for a primaris psyker to be old enough to leave the novitate to become a full fledged priest. Plus a Priest would have to take a primaris in as a pupil,because they only take people in through co optation.
From what people say about the SW fluff here and at my store. It looks like the codexs fluff was writen by someone who didn't knew much about SW fluff, was told to implement primaris in to the codex no matter what, and just wrote stuff he or she thought to be "cool". It is like a fanfiction made legal by GW, or the last jedi.

Not true! The original VI Legion had members from a wide range of sources before Russ was found (to include Terra), so the problem seems to be the geneseed was tainted over time by Ferensian stock to only work on Ferensians. Additionally, Cawl used Ferensians to make the Primaris Wolves too.

And let's not forget that these guys were fighting up to a hundred years before rejoining the boys on Fenris and it's been a good chunk of time since then. I think in total the older Primaris have about 300 years of combat experiance now? Even if it's only 200, it's still enough to meet requirements.

No, the real complaint should be that we didn't get anything about the only confirmed Space Wolf successors out of the Primaris. Where the heck is the Wolfspear!?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Isn't that just the problem with Primaris in general, though?

You have a society that's notably suspicious of new technology and new things and always on the lookout for corruption, but who then suddenly welcome Primaris marines with open arms and don't ask questions about their dodgy origins 'cause you can't copyright 'space marine'.

First off, the issue is trademarks, not copyrights. And that was solved by officially claiming "Adeptus Astartes" as a trademark to fix the issue. Primaris Marines seem to take their name from the fact that they have a Primarch organ implanted into them.

The geneseed wasn't tainted over time, it was tainted from the start, the 13th knew and Bulveye tried to hide it from Russ but Russ already knew.

the fact that the curse first appered in the 13th company makes me suspect the taint went in when they started applying the canis Helix to adults.

It didn't first appear in the 13th, all great companies had the curse. Though I think that was why so many of the 13th turned Wulfen as Bulveye had to clean up a lot of bodies so the Rout wouldn't find out.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

SW players are used to be Codex: SM+1. Not getting it means tantrums

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

SW players are used to be Codex: SM+1. Not getting it means tantrums

whoa whoa whoa guys, let's not refer to this as "Space Wolf Players" this is "A Space Wolf player"

BrianDavion wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

SW players are used to be Codex: SM+1. Not getting it means tantrums

whoa whoa whoa guys, let's not refer to this as "Space Wolf Players" this is "A Space Wolf player"

Nah I gotta agree with Shuppet on this one. Space Wolves are always consistently better and their players are super entitled because of it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

SW players are used to be Codex: SM+1. Not getting it means tantrums

whoa whoa whoa guys, let's not refer to this as "Space Wolf Players" this is "A Space Wolf player"

Nah I gotta agree with Shuppet on this one. Space Wolves are always consistently better and their players are super entitled because of it.

I shall get the salt mines producing as much as I can!

But we all have to agree at some point that at least the new 8th edition lore for space wolves for primaris integration should at least be better than it currently is.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

SW players are used to be Codex: SM+1. Not getting it means tantrums

whoa whoa whoa guys, let's not refer to this as "Space Wolf Players" this is "A Space Wolf player"

Nah I gotta agree with Shuppet on this one. Space Wolves are always consistently better and their players are super entitled because of it.

I shall get the salt mines producing as much as I can!

But we all have to agree at some point that at least the new 8th edition lore for space wolves for primaris integration should at least be better than it currently is.

read the new codex yet?

 Asherian Command wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

SW players are used to be Codex: SM+1. Not getting it means tantrums

whoa whoa whoa guys, let's not refer to this as "Space Wolf Players" this is "A Space Wolf player"

Nah I gotta agree with Shuppet on this one. Space Wolves are always consistently better and their players are super entitled because of it.

I shall get the salt mines producing as much as I can!

But we all have to agree at some point that at least the new 8th edition lore for space wolves for primaris integration should at least be better than it currently is.

Nah it's done fine. The fact Aggressors are said to be cheerful is just amazing in my mind.

Wouldn't you be happy being suited with some of the best armor in the game with a veritable armory on your hand?

read the new codex yet?

Yes! Infact I liked it!

Its just... With the wolves I don't really see them as the "Lets keep it the name everyone else does." Maybe one day we will have a unique primaris unit for each chapter.

Its the best so far of the primaris integration storyline.... (if that is my only noteworthy praise I can say so far! haven't completely finished reading it, I still don't like the format they have for it)

ah it's done fine. The fact Aggressors are said to be cheerful is just amazing in my mind.

Wish we had more honestly, the lore so far in the books is kind of lack luster. No new giant battle narratives at all which sucks and very little mention of the siege of fenris apart from a few quips here and there. ITs not as substantial as I hoped it would be.


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 Quickjager wrote:
Wouldn't you be happy being suited with some of the best armor in the game with a veritable armory on your hand?

Aggressors are still the silliest models i've ever seen but yes with that much fire power!

(But i rather they were gattling guns or a good ole assault cannon!)

One thing I'm wondering going forward is how interested GW is in making space marines more homogeneous model wise while using cheap/essentially free options like warlord traits and other print abilities to have the chapters be different. So far outside of one off LT releases chapters are not getting any really unique primaris units.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
One thing I'm wondering going forward is how interested GW is in making space marines more homogeneous model wise while using cheap/essentially free options like warlord traits and other print abilities to have the chapters be different. So far outside of one off LT releases chapters are not getting any really unique primaris units.

Which is funny considering how different each chaos legion is compared to one another in terms of rules.... So homogenizing the imperial space marines, but not the chaos legions. K cool.

BrianDavion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
We've got 20 codexes (going on 21 in Orktober) in the span of two years. If they weren't a little weak in terms of updates over the indexes and lacking massive releases of new units I would have been a lot more shocked.

except they're not weak at all. Unless you mean from a "new units" POV. In fact I'd argue that the codices right now are, when taken together, the best we've gotten from GW since I started playing, with one or two notable exceptions the balance of power between the codexes is MUCH MUCH more even. sure some codices are better then others, but by and large, we're in a better condition then past editions that way. Which to my mind is the OPs problem. he didn't want an army "on par" with everyone else. he wanted to be better in every way. Given his focus on formations etc I kinda wonder if he's a newer 40k player who just liked that space wolves where the "better then space marines in every way" codex.

Did you even read the OPs post? Even just the second sentence?

I'm not talking about competitive power level.

None of it had to do with relative power, but just general content in the book. The last sentence summed it up:

I can't help but be very underwhelmed by this codex. It feels like I paid $40 for 3 pages at the back beyond what I already had in my index and one of those pages was a misprint.

His problem isn't that wolves aren't better, it's that he feels the codex itself isn't worth the $40 and year long wait.

 Asherian Command wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
One thing I'm wondering going forward is how interested GW is in making space marines more homogeneous model wise while using cheap/essentially free options like warlord traits and other print abilities to have the chapters be different. So far outside of one off LT releases chapters are not getting any really unique primaris units.

Which is funny considering how different each chaos legion is compared to one another in terms of rules.... So homogenizing the imperial space marines, but not the chaos legions. K cool.

My comment wasn't so much complaining about it, so much as it's clear GW wants to reduce it's model line. Between the Forge World purge, Index to Codex purge and the Primaris kits having few options compared to the older models, it's clear GW wants to clean house and make things relatively simple.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
One thing I'm wondering going forward is how interested GW is in making space marines more homogeneous model wise while using cheap/essentially free options like warlord traits and other print abilities to have the chapters be different. So far outside of one off LT releases chapters are not getting any really unique primaris units.

Which is funny considering how different each chaos legion is compared to one another in terms of rules.... So homogenizing the imperial space marines, but not the chaos legions. K cool.

My comment wasn't so much complaining about it, so much as it's clear GW wants to reduce it's model line. Between the Forge World purge, Index to Codex purge and the Primaris kits having few options compared to the older models, it's clear GW wants to clean house and make things relatively simple.

What models were purged during the Index and Codex switch?

I was of the belief that they purged units that didn't have models, not models.

My double auto cannon dread and chaplain on a bike to start. Let me rephrase, anything that they don't sell an exact model for in one kit at this particular moment got an ax. Going forward, I assume this will likely be an ongoing theme.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
One thing I'm wondering going forward is how interested GW is in making space marines more homogeneous model wise while using cheap/essentially free options like warlord traits and other print abilities to have the chapters be different. So far outside of one off LT releases chapters are not getting any really unique primaris units.

Which is funny considering how different each chaos legion is compared to one another in terms of rules.... So homogenizing the imperial space marines, but not the chaos legions. K cool.

My comment wasn't so much complaining about it, so much as it's clear GW wants to reduce it's model line. Between the Forge World purge, Index to Codex purge and the Primaris kits having few options compared to the older models, it's clear GW wants to clean house and make things relatively simple.

What models were purged during the Index and Codex switch?

I was of the belief that they purged units that didn't have models, not models.

Well he's going off the fact Forgeworld purged alot of upgrade sprues and the Entire Elysian Line.

More are coming we are going to see more and more purges and them scaling back the space marine line... Which is honestly fine. I want them to decommission the Centurions the most honestly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
My double auto cannon dread and chaplain on a bike to start. Let me rephrase, anything that they don't sell an exact model for in one kit at this particular moment got an ax. Going forward, I assume this will likely be an ongoing theme.

Yes which stinks. Cause I loved doing those conversions / kitbashing. Thats the fun of playing space marines was being able to do that with any unit.

What annoys me the most, neither of those for me were. I bought the AC arms from FW and the chaplain on a bike was a model they sold. I have a ton of kit bashed Marines, including both my Librarians . Its also clear that they want to simplify characters. Compare back in the day when any HQ choice had multiple kits or options. Now it's static clam pack.

I get that certain options might not be legal edition to edition but this is another level.

Final annoyed thought, the only White Scars special character lost the ability to take a bike in the codex, that's just BS.

I'm honestly glad that every other army in the game gets the same treatment the Space Marines get; one unique book per Chapter, instead of one book period containing all the Craftworlds/Hive Fleets/Dynasties, etc.

I'm also glad I can just grab a different codex for my Xenos, and have access to a brand new ruleset with the exact same models.

To throw my 2 cents into the ring, I'm rather disappointed lore-wise with the new book, it hasn't really added anything new, doesn't mention that Wolves have Ultima founding successors now and I swear they've cut out some of the lore and timeline sections that were in the previous codex. Again art wise, I'm disappointed there's no mention of successors and I think it's a shame that we've not got much new stuff painted up. Rules wise, the warlord trait botch is really disappointing and the change with wulfen dreadnoughts feels a bit weirdly done. I don't get why it wasn't just a dread with a beefed up statline and maybe a gimicky rule that has access to all the SW dread weapons. Instead it's the only way to field an axe and shield dread, which just feels completely weird lore-wise. Why would a regular dread not have access to the axe and shield (especially when they used to be able to), I sort of get the wulfen dread not having ranged weapons (given their nature) but I thought they'd be a little more customisable. Overall it's an alright book but if I were to compare it to another recent and fantastic GW book like the Stormcast battletome I'd say it really pales in comparison, but then I'd say that about all the 8th ed codecies I've seen to be completely honest.

It is really strange they didn't mention the Ultima Founding successors at all. And instead had the primariis integrate directly into the great companies. Seems odd.

I feel like the delay on the Space Wolves was more because of balance than anything else. Length of time it takes to a codex doesn't mean you're getting new stuff or more stuff, it just means it took longer to get the book. Correlation isn't causation and that.

That said, I know some people have some salt over how weak the codex updates are, but considering the codexes are being rushed out likely to allow the indexes to be discontinued and the game being moved in a new direction which will be interesting to see.

There is DEFINITELY a lack of some things in terms of lore and how small the model image sections are, but at the same time the books are functional, pretty closely balanced (at least compared to past editions but it's worth noting there are less outright crap choices these days with the only true crap choice being Grey Knights) and it gets us closer to having the game being fully functional instead of being the bare bones start the edition gave us.

Look, I get it that people want more every time their codex is updated, but with a release cycle this dense and the new codex updates being focused on getting full rulesets out over new kits means that "more" for most books will be coming later, not now.

Rule-wise SW was an extremely cautious codex that nerfed more than it buffed, list of major nerfs that I've found from a quick scan:
- Blizzard shield from 3++ to 4++
- Arjac's thunderhammer dealing D3 damage instead of flat 3 except against characters and monsters
- Herald's +1 to save doesn't apply to invul saves anymore
- Wolves went from 6 points to 8 points
- Grey Hunters can't take chainswords anymore
- Bjorn can't take twin lascannons, his best loadoutby far
- Fenrisian great axe now has a -1 to hit penalty and lost the +1 attack bonus

The wolves point increase is especially frustrating because marines are notoriously lacking in cheap chaff options and the wolves could have been a great answer to that issue.

There are also plenty of obvious design decision to curtail any potential for powerful combos:
- Wulfen dreadnoughts mysteriously lacking smoke launchers
- The Wulfen stone relic writing out a novel's worth of text just to make sure it can never stack with the curse of the wulfen buff
- Writing out a novel's worth of text to make sure a unit can never benefit from both curse of the wulfen buffs at the same turn, even though it's completely fluffy and sensible to do so
- Cloaked in Storm stratagem requiring a psychic power to go off successfully and cannot be used during an opponent's shooting phase
- Chooser of the Slain is a strictly worse version of an Eldar stratagem

My theory for the SW book is that it is the victim of GW aggressively reining back the potential power creep created by knights and dark eldar, resulting in an extremely safe and sanitized book where 'muh balance' is everything. SW has the potential to be an absolute monster for mono-marine lists (and it still is right now, that's how bad marines are by themselves). If that's the case I applaud GW's attempt but the genie is out of the bottle when you made dissy ravagers and 4 point guardsmen. Hopefully SW was written with the upcoming chapter approved and FAQ in mind so it has been adjusted in preparation for that.

Edit: Got a couple of points wrong here, skimmed the book too fast and jumped to conclusions

 Continuity wrote:
Rule-wise SW was an extremely cautious codex that nerfed more than it buffed, list of major nerfs that I've found from a quick scan:
- Blizzard shield from 3++ to 4++
- Arjac's thunderhammer dealing D3 damage instead of flat 3 except against characters and monsters
- Herald's +1 to save doesn't apply to invul saves anymore
- Wolves went from 6 points to 8 points
- Grey Hunters can't take chainswords anymore
- Bjorn can't take twin lascannons, his best loadout by far
- Fenrisian great axe now has a -1 to hit penalty and lost the +1 attack bonus

The wolves point increase is especially frustrating because marines are notoriously lacking in cheap chaff options and the wolves could have been a great answer to that issue.

There are also plenty of obvious design decision to curtail any potential for powerful combos:
- Wulfen dreadnoughts mysteriously lacking smoke launchers
- The Wulfen stone relic writing out a novel's worth of text just to make sure it can never stack with the curse of the wulfen buff
- Writing out a novel's worth of text to make sure a unit can never benefit from both curse of the wulfen buffs at the same turn, even though it's completely fluffy and sensible to do so
- Cloaked in Storm stratagem requiring a psychic power to go off successfully and cannot be used during an opponent's shooting phase
- Chooser of the Slain is a strictly worse version of an Eldar stratagem

My theory for the SW book is that it is the victim of GW aggressively reining back the potential power creep created by knights and dark eldar, resulting in an extremely safe and sanitized book where 'muh balance' is everything. SW has the potential to be an absolute monster for mono-marine lists (and it still is right now, that's how bad marines are by themselves). If that's the case I applaud GW's attempt but the genie is out of the bottle when you made dissy ravagers and 4 point guardsmen. Hopefully SW was written with the upcoming chapter approved and FAQ in mind so it has been adjusted in preparation for that.

Bjorn can still take twin lascannons.
Grey hunters can still take chainswords.
Arjac:s hammer was always like that.

 beir wrote:

 Continuity wrote:
Rule-wise SW was an extremely cautious codex that nerfed more than it buffed, list of major nerfs that I've found from a quick scan:
- Blizzard shield from 3++ to 4++
- Arjac's thunderhammer dealing D3 damage instead of flat 3 except against characters and monsters
- Herald's +1 to save doesn't apply to invul saves anymore
- Wolves went from 6 points to 8 points
- Grey Hunters can't take chainswords anymore
- Bjorn can't take twin lascannons, his best loadout by far
- Fenrisian great axe now has a -1 to hit penalty and lost the +1 attack bonus

The wolves point increase is especially frustrating because marines are notoriously lacking in cheap chaff options and the wolves could have been a great answer to that issue.

There are also plenty of obvious design decision to curtail any potential for powerful combos:
- Wulfen dreadnoughts mysteriously lacking smoke launchers
- The Wulfen stone relic writing out a novel's worth of text just to make sure it can never stack with the curse of the wulfen buff
- Writing out a novel's worth of text to make sure a unit can never benefit from both curse of the wulfen buffs at the same turn, even though it's completely fluffy and sensible to do so
- Cloaked in Storm stratagem requiring a psychic power to go off successfully and cannot be used during an opponent's shooting phase
- Chooser of the Slain is a strictly worse version of an Eldar stratagem

My theory for the SW book is that it is the victim of GW aggressively reining back the potential power creep created by knights and dark eldar, resulting in an extremely safe and sanitized book where 'muh balance' is everything. SW has the potential to be an absolute monster for mono-marine lists (and it still is right now, that's how bad marines are by themselves). If that's the case I applaud GW's attempt but the genie is out of the bottle when you made dissy ravagers and 4 point guardsmen. Hopefully SW was written with the upcoming chapter approved and FAQ in mind so it has been adjusted in preparation for that.

Bjorn can still take twin lascannons.
Grey hunters can still take chainswords.
Arjac:s hammer was always like that.

My mistake, somehow I completely missed those options on my first readthrough

Can Primaris Battle Leaders take Fenrisian Wolves as wargear or is that not a thing?

 Kanluwen wrote:
Can Primaris Battle Leaders take Fenrisian Wolves as wargear or is that not a thing?

Nope. Only Ragnar can do that.

- Chooser of the Slain is a strictly worse version of an Eldar stratagem

If by worse you mean different. The Eldar one requires you to choose a friendly <CRAFTWORLD> unit. The Space Wolf one only requires a friendly unit. 'Hello friendly Shadowsword, see captain Slamguinius who just arrived via deepstrike, remove him please."




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nope. Only Ragnar can do that.

And his have 3 attacks each. The vicious beasts.

Justyn wrote:

If by worse you mean different. The Eldar one requires you to choose a friendly <CRAFTWORLD> unit. The Space Wolf one only requires a friendly unit. 'Hello friendly Shadowsword, see captain Slamguinius who just arrived via deepstrike, remove him please."

True, but given the flavour text on the stratagem, it seems likely this was not the intention and will probably be FAQed. It might not, but I wouldn't rush out right now and buy an army on this stratagem, at least not before the post-Codex-release quick-FAQ.

If you already have Space Wolves + Shadowsword/Castellan/whatever, it might be a fun way to annoy people this weekend, maybe next weekend if you're lucky and GW doesn't get around to the FAQ due to NOVA.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Justyn wrote:

If by worse you mean different. The Eldar one requires you to choose a friendly <CRAFTWORLD> unit. The Space Wolf one only requires a friendly unit. 'Hello friendly Shadowsword, see captain Slamguinius who just arrived via deepstrike, remove him please."

True, but given the flavour text on the stratagem, it seems likely this was not the intention and will probably be FAQed. It might not, but I wouldn't rush out right now and buy an army on this stratagem, at least not before the post-Codex-release quick-FAQ.

If you already have Space Wolves + Shadowsword/Castellan/whatever, it might be a fun way to annoy people this weekend, maybe next weekend if you're lucky and GW doesn't get around to the FAQ due to NOVA.

I'm actually thinking this is working as intended, it's why it's such a nerfed form of Auspex Scan and whatever the Eldar one is because it's so much more open.

BrianDavion wrote:

I'm actually thinking this is working as intended, it's why it's such a nerfed form of Auspex Scan and whatever the Eldar one is because it's so much more open.

Yeahh, no. The flavour text clearly says the psyber-raven-slain-thing is alerting nearby space wolves units.

It's a deepstriking Magnus-Mortarion-thing all over again.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

I'm actually thinking this is working as intended, it's why it's such a nerfed form of Auspex Scan and whatever the Eldar one is because it's so much more open.

Yeahh, no. The flavour text clearly says the psyber-raven-slain-thing is alerting nearby space wolves units.

It's a deepstriking Magnus-Mortarion-thing all over again.

sure except it also requires the unit to be within 6 inches of the wolf preist. and given the fluff (the preist can see and hear through the psyber familers ears and eyes) it's clearly the preist warning the unit.

If this warns space wolves it's, frankly a gak stratigium because it's absolute crap compared to auspex scan

BrianDavion wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Justyn wrote:

If by worse you mean different. The Eldar one requires you to choose a friendly <CRAFTWORLD> unit. The Space Wolf one only requires a friendly unit. 'Hello friendly Shadowsword, see captain Slamguinius who just arrived via deepstrike, remove him please."

True, but given the flavour text on the stratagem, it seems likely this was not the intention and will probably be FAQed. It might not, but I wouldn't rush out right now and buy an army on this stratagem, at least not before the post-Codex-release quick-FAQ.

If you already have Space Wolves + Shadowsword/Castellan/whatever, it might be a fun way to annoy people this weekend, maybe next weekend if you're lucky and GW doesn't get around to the FAQ due to NOVA.

I'm actually thinking this is working as intended, it's why it's such a nerfed form of Auspex Scan and whatever the Eldar one is because it's so much more open.

You think it's a nerfed version of auspex scan? It's different yes but I'm not going to agree that spacewolfs are marines -1.

Seriously most of this thread sounds like the stuff your salty about is stuff that should never have been things in the first place
3++ dreadnaughts
+1 to invulnerable saves (hello 2++ deathstars)

They aren't marine -1 they are just inline with the rest of the marine codex's which leaves room for point drops or other marine wide changes to make them all playable instead of it being play your marines as marines + or loose.

Nah .. you could still unload a Repulsor worth of stuff into Cultists or use it on Long Fangs and even a Space Marine Superheavy.

It's probably about right and what the overpowered Eldar one should've been. It's still more flexible than Auspex scan in that you can set it up with a Rune Priest near a good shooty unit, but not game-changingly powerful as no single stratagem actually should be (but too many sadly are).

 Continuity wrote:

My theory for the SW book is that it is the victim of GW aggressively reining back the potential power creep created by knights and dark eldar, resulting in an extremely safe and sanitized book where 'muh balance' is everything. SW has the potential to be an absolute monster for mono-marine lists (and it still is right now, that's how bad marines are by themselves). If that's the case I applaud GW's attempt but the genie is out of the bottle when you made dissy ravagers and 4 point guardsmen. Hopefully SW was written with the upcoming chapter approved and FAQ in mind so it has been adjusted in preparation for that.

Edit: Got a couple of points wrong here, skimmed the book too fast and jumped to conclusions

You think GW would change codex because of codex not yet even released?-) Nope.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Justyn wrote:

If by worse you mean different. The Eldar one requires you to choose a friendly <CRAFTWORLD> unit. The Space Wolf one only requires a friendly unit. 'Hello friendly Shadowsword, see captain Slamguinius who just arrived via deepstrike, remove him please."

True, but given the flavour text on the stratagem, it seems likely this was not the intention and will probably be FAQed. It might not, but I wouldn't rush out right now and buy an army on this stratagem, at least not before the post-Codex-release quick-FAQ.

If you already have Space Wolves + Shadowsword/Castellan/whatever, it might be a fun way to annoy people this weekend, maybe next weekend if you're lucky and GW doesn't get around to the FAQ due to NOVA.

Yup agreed. Remember case "Deep striking Magnus/Mortarion".

Use if you want, don't invest to big huge model hoping to use this quite yet.

Well if the intention of the stratagem is <Space Wolves> units only, it's pretty appalling that they failed to write it as such in the first place.

That said, I would wait for the FAQ anyway.

 Continuity wrote:


My theory for the SW book is that it is the victim of GW aggressively reining back the potential power creep created by knights and dark eldar, resulting in an extremely safe and sanitized book where 'muh balance' is everything.

That's not how writing, editing, typesetting and sending a book to printers in China, having it ship back for a few months to warehouses and stores around the world works. When GW rule-writers put their finishing touches on this book, people were probably doing some Christmas shopping, and Knights, Drukhari or the spring FAQ were all still in the relatively distant future.

 Weazel wrote:
Well if the intention of the stratagem is <Space Wolves> units only, it's pretty appalling that they failed to write it as such in the first place.

That said, I would wait for the FAQ anyway.

Well we are talking about GW that considers game to be played by friends rather than WAAC players so what is intentional and what is unintended mistake is sometimes hard...

True, but given the flavour text on the stratagem, it seems likely this was not the intention and will probably be FAQed. It might not, but I wouldn't rush out right now and buy an army on this stratagem, at least not before the post-Codex-release quick-FAQ.

If you already have Space Wolves + Shadowsword/Castellan/whatever, it might be a fun way to annoy people this weekend, maybe next weekend if you're lucky and GW doesn't get around to the FAQ due to NOVA.

I disagree. I believe the intent was there. Oh probably not for Shadowswords and Castellans, but for cross faction. We'll see when the FAQ comes. As careful as they were with the rest of the Codex about not erring on the side of too powerful (read nerfed the crap out of a great many things) I can't imagine they missed this. I can picture a FAQ that changes it to friendly infantry or some such.

The Warlord Traits were more a "Hey this is cool and fluffy" rather than a huge nerf or boost. Some got worse admittedly. Some will be better if they get activated before it no longer matters in a game.

I definitely agree about not rushing out to purchase anything.

Ice_can wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Justyn wrote:

If by worse you mean different. The Eldar one requires you to choose a friendly <CRAFTWORLD> unit. The Space Wolf one only requires a friendly unit. 'Hello friendly Shadowsword, see captain Slamguinius who just arrived via deepstrike, remove him please."

True, but given the flavour text on the stratagem, it seems likely this was not the intention and will probably be FAQed. It might not, but I wouldn't rush out right now and buy an army on this stratagem, at least not before the post-Codex-release quick-FAQ.

If you already have Space Wolves + Shadowsword/Castellan/whatever, it might be a fun way to annoy people this weekend, maybe next weekend if you're lucky and GW doesn't get around to the FAQ due to NOVA.

I'm actually thinking this is working as intended, it's why it's such a nerfed form of Auspex Scan and whatever the Eldar one is because it's so much more open.

You think it's a nerfed version of auspex scan? It's different yes but I'm not going to agree that spacewolfs are marines -1.

Seriously most of this thread sounds like the stuff your salty about is stuff that should never have been things in the first place
3++ dreadnaughts
+1 to invulnerable saves (hello 2++ deathstars)

They aren't marine -1 they are just inline with the rest of the marine codex's which leaves room for point drops or other marine wide changes to make them all playable instead of it being play your marines as marines + or loose.

I'm not saying it's marines -1, I'm saying it's a weaker form of auspec scan and because of that I think it's "any friendly" MIGHT be working as intended.
Noty that it is, but I think it's too early to say and this is a definate FAQ question. that said I'd not wanna build a list around using this with a shadowsword or something. because it's 50/50 if they FAQ it IMHO

The codex disappoint me. I know that all marine codex at the bottom of power curve now, and should the wolves become competitive as standalone codex a wave of hate will be unleashed, but was that nerfs be so necessary?.. Why nerf dread, nobody use it anyway. Why overnerf wolves? GW force us to take guard ally? No internal bubblewrab unit allowed here. Why nerf battleleader, we a supposse to use lots of character heavy hitters, and that one was not OP.
And warlord traits was nerfed before the codex was shipped to players. Such a dirty move, give at least option to use ones in codex...

But compare to other marines it's good. Sad that marines in a bad place overal.

Spacewolves got a good codex because they boosted shooting and not only melee combat , like the blood angels.


Stormfangs went down 50 pts and are playble now

Keen senses is one of the best stratagems because minus to hit modifiers are a huge game changer

Longfangs got reroll wounds for 1 CP

Chooser of the slain is way better than auspex scan because there is no limit in the range and also its not only for infantry units

Warlord traits are good buffs because our warlords tend to be beatsticks and the aura thing is a secondary buff which provides flavor (saga and all) and an additional boost

Our chapter tactic is very good

wulfenstone and arnour of russ are good relics

All in all a good book and for me its better overall than any other marine book.

 beir wrote:
Why is it to be expected that 8th is a large step back from 7th in terms of army customization and rule variety?

Because 7th was a bloated monstrosity that almost killed off the game.

I'll be in minority, but I am really GLAD that there is no more companies. There will be 1 or 2 playable and the rest will suck.
Want to play wolves - play X company. You paint your guys as Y lord's warriors? Sad to be you. And if you play X company, you cannot use that awesome strategem and named character for Y one. I own a codex, I want to use all it's toys c:

I've had Wolves since 3rd. I'm not a fan of this codex but that's because I lost the ability to field bike and twolf Iron Priests and any mention of Lone Wolves have gone. I'm stoked I can run fighter support for my gunships and aerial transports, and I can't wait to stick pelts and stuff all over a Hunter or three.
That said I also run vanilla marines, and I LOVED the Angels of Death formations for them and am gutted I lost those.

I think the only "marine" book that could give SW book a run for best well rounded marine book, is death guard.

Kurnost wrote:
I've had Wolves since 3rd. I'm not a fan of this codex but that's because I lost the ability to field bike and twolf Iron Priests and any mention of Lone Wolves have gone. I'm stoked I can run fighter support for my gunships and aerial transports, and I can't wait to stick pelts and stuff all over a Hunter or three.
That said I also run vanilla marines, and I LOVED the Angels of Death formations for them and am gutted I lost those.

If it's in the index it's still legal to take. They're just taking stuff out of the codexes that don't have actual model kits and require conversion to run.

Formations died for good reason and while I fully support stuff that rewards people for the models in their collections, the way it's done via strategems (and by forcing you to pay CP to use them) is better balanced than it ever was. Any of the formations that gave you free stuff had to go though as there is no way to do free models like that in 8th, and it's for good reason.

Kurnost wrote:
I've had Wolves since 3rd. I'm not a fan of this codex but that's because I lost the ability to field bike and twolf Iron Priests and any mention of Lone Wolves have gone. I'm stoked I can run fighter support for my gunships and aerial transports, and I can't wait to stick pelts and stuff all over a Hunter or three.
That said I also run vanilla marines, and I LOVED the Angels of Death formations for them and am gutted I lost those.

1) no you didn't. Index flowchart exists. If you're whining that you lost the same stuff literally every codex "lost" then I'm not sure what to say to you. No model, no rules.

2) no they're not. Either A, use them from index, or B, use the new stratagem (it's called "lone wolf" if that's not a big enough hint as to what it does) to make a lone wolf dynamically in game.

Welcome to 8th edition...where have you been?

the_scotsman wrote:

Kurnost wrote:
I've had Wolves since 3rd. I'm not a fan of this codex but that's because I lost the ability to field bike and twolf Iron Priests and any mention of Lone Wolves have gone. I'm stoked I can run fighter support for my gunships and aerial transports, and I can't wait to stick pelts and stuff all over a Hunter or three.
That said I also run vanilla marines, and I LOVED the Angels of Death formations for them and am gutted I lost those.

1) no you didn't. Index flowchart exists. If you're whining that you lost the same stuff literally every codex "lost" then I'm not sure what to say to you. No model, no rules.

2) no they're not. Either A, use them from index, or B, use the new stratagem (it's called "lone wolf" if that's not a big enough hint as to what it does) to make a lone wolf dynamically in game.

I've seen this type of conversation happen in every codex thread since vanilla marines dropped. Folks are really bad at articulating what they mean to say it seems. They also seek out hyperbole almost immediately, too. What this scot is saying is absolutely correct - nothing was lost. Just...changed. Balanced differently.

But what Kurnoth is trying to say is that he lost the ability to do it the way he remembered/wanted/some other qualifier that isn't clearly explained or articulated in his original post. I think the reason the hyperbole is clear - he's trying to highlight the loss of it in its previous form as an issue in a way that exaggerates the impact, even if it's not really that big of a deal objectively as it is to him subjectively.

It's fascinating to watch, but makes it a true exercise in futility to try and get a read on the quality and balance of codexes from those with past experiences with the army. It's pure madness.

Lemondish wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Kurnost wrote:
I've had Wolves since 3rd. I'm not a fan of this codex but that's because I lost the ability to field bike and twolf Iron Priests and any mention of Lone Wolves have gone. I'm stoked I can run fighter support for my gunships and aerial transports, and I can't wait to stick pelts and stuff all over a Hunter or three.
That said I also run vanilla marines, and I LOVED the Angels of Death formations for them and am gutted I lost those.

1) no you didn't. Index flowchart exists. If you're whining that you lost the same stuff literally every codex "lost" then I'm not sure what to say to you. No model, no rules.

2) no they're not. Either A, use them from index, or B, use the new stratagem (it's called "lone wolf" if that's not a big enough hint as to what it does) to make a lone wolf dynamically in game.

I've seen this type of conversation happen in every codex thread since vanilla marines dropped. Folks are really bad at articulating what they mean to say it seems. They also seek out hyperbole almost immediately, too. What this scot is saying is absolutely correct - nothing was lost. Just...changed. Balanced differently.

But what Kurnoth is trying to say is that he lost the ability to do it the way he remembered/wanted/some other qualifier that isn't clearly explained or articulated in his original post. I think the reason the hyperbole is clear - he's trying to highlight the loss of it in its previous form as an issue in a way that exaggerates the impact, even if it's not really that big of a deal objectively as it is to him subjectively.

It's fascinating to watch, but makes it a true exercise in futility to try and get a read on the quality and balance of codexes from those with past experiences with the army. It's pure madness.

Without owning and playing it yourself, the only way to recieve a reasonable opinion on a dex is from a voice you know and recognise to be impartial on such matters, or from top players. Putting faith to the opinions of anyone else on this site is a recipe for disaster. I've never seen so much downplay, and there is some extremely low level opinions on here with no real way to filter it. Even the Reddit is higher level than here, I'd recommend just listening to tournament players podcasts or reading their blogs if you want a more knowledgeable or nuanced opinion concerning anything competitive.

The_Scotsman, thanks for pointing me towards the stratagem. I'd missed it in my first read through.

Where can I find this Index Flowchart you speak of?

Kurnost wrote:
The_Scotsman, thanks for pointing me towards the stratagem. I'd missed it in my first read through.

Where can I find this Index Flowchart you speak of?

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf

Last page.

Anything that *is* in the index, but *isn't* in the codex - be that wargear, or unit - can still be used with the index rules, unchanged.

Personally, I think the Lone Wolf stratagem is way cooler than Lone Wolf the index unit (because it happens organically, in game, a model who is the last survivor of the unit becomes a character and starts doing awesome stuff) but you can still take Lone Wolf the index unit.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

SW players are used to be Codex: SM+1. Not getting it means tantrums

whoa whoa whoa guys, let's not refer to this as "Space Wolf Players" this is "A Space Wolf player"

Nah I gotta agree with Shuppet on this one. Space Wolves are always consistently better and their players are super entitled because of it.

In every edition I have played this has been consistently true.

Greyhunters have always been a super tactical for like +1 point.
Thunder-wolves - super bikes for not much more points
Dreads better because reasons
Frost weapons the best at same points
Relics better because reasons
psychic better even though they don't use psychics
more heavies in the devs squads because reasons (have split fire because reasons) (same cost)
Special storm raven with more guns because reasons
Oh - you can take an army with all free drop pods? Oh so can we except - all our drop pod arrive at the same time.

I could go ON AND ON AND ON. But it would be pointless.

Space Wolves have gotten some great stratagems. Long Fangs shooting people in the ass is going to be annoying.

Awesome stratagem - reroll all hits or wounds for 5 heavies? That is massive. Then if you fail to kill off a unit and leave 1...he becomes lone wolf and now has character protection. This is a pretty cool rule I must say.

So many people in this thread totally missing my point. I was never talking about competitive power level. It was the second sentence.

I suppose it's true that most people only read headlines.

 beir wrote:
So many people in this thread totally missing my point. I was never talking about competitive power level. It was the second sentence.

I suppose it's true that most people only read headlines.

The problem is that most of your complaints directly tie to the competitive power of the army. Yes you mentioned a bit here and there about lore but most of your complaints were tied to options, particularly options we've known for a long time that were broken last edition and you wanted put into this edition regardless.

It's hard to divorce competitive power from the list when thing things you specifically want are a leap up in the power level of the army as a whole.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 beir wrote:
So many people in this thread totally missing my point. I was never talking about competitive power level. It was the second sentence.

I suppose it's true that most people only read headlines.

The problem is that most of your complaints directly tie to the competitive power of the army. Yes you mentioned a bit here and there about lore but most of your complaints were tied to options, particularly options we've known for a long time that were broken last edition and you wanted put into this edition regardless.

It's hard to divorce competitive power from the list when thing things you specifically want are a leap up in the power level of the army as a whole.

No, most of my complaints were about lack of flavor/diversity and lack of painted and converted model photos of new units in the book.

I can see now why you got so angry at my post - you didn't even understand it in the first place.

They didn't even put pictures of several models they already have in their unit entries.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I think the only "marine" book that could give SW book a run for best well rounded marine book, is death guard.

Since those are your main armies, you must be a happy camper right about now?

 beir wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 beir wrote:
So many people in this thread totally missing my point. I was never talking about competitive power level. It was the second sentence.

I suppose it's true that most people only read headlines.

The problem is that most of your complaints directly tie to the competitive power of the army. Yes you mentioned a bit here and there about lore but most of your complaints were tied to options, particularly options we've known for a long time that were broken last edition and you wanted put into this edition regardless.

It's hard to divorce competitive power from the list when thing things you specifically want are a leap up in the power level of the army as a whole.

No, most of my complaints were about lack of flavor/diversity and lack of painted and converted model photos of new units in the book.

I can see now why you got so angry at my post - you didn't even understand it in the first place.

They didn't even put pictures of several models they already have in their unit entries.

You complained about a lack of formations, which are a significant power boost to the army. You also complained about not having additional subfaction rules which would further boost army strength as well.

Yes, you complained about missing pictures (something that tells me you need to look at more codexes, they're all a bit bare bones in that regard, something that has me disappointed as well) but you had plenty of complaints for wanting more stuff from 6th/7th back that have no point being in the game and would just give the codex a massive power boost.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 beir wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 beir wrote:
So many people in this thread totally missing my point. I was never talking about competitive power level. It was the second sentence.

I suppose it's true that most people only read headlines.

The problem is that most of your complaints directly tie to the competitive power of the army. Yes you mentioned a bit here and there about lore but most of your complaints were tied to options, particularly options we've known for a long time that were broken last edition and you wanted put into this edition regardless.

It's hard to divorce competitive power from the list when thing things you specifically want are a leap up in the power level of the army as a whole.

No, most of my complaints were about lack of flavor/diversity and lack of painted and converted model photos of new units in the book.

I can see now why you got so angry at my post - you didn't even understand it in the first place.

They didn't even put pictures of several models they already have in their unit entries.

You complained about a lack of formations, which are a significant power boost to the army. You also complained about not having additional subfaction rules which would further boost army strength as well.

Yes, you complained about missing pictures (something that tells me you need to look at more codexes, they're all a bit bare bones in that regard, something that has me disappointed as well) but you had plenty of complaints for wanting more stuff from 6th/7th back that have no point being in the game and would just give the codex a massive power boost.

Why would they have to give a massive power boost? I wouldn't mind if old formations, retooled as stratagems, came back and 'sucked' from a competitive point of view. I wouldn't mind if Arjac's Shieldbrothers cost 6cp as long as it was there somewhere. My point was that we got a lot of vanilla marine stratagems and not much new/unique for us while there was plenty of source material to draw from. The unique stratagems we did get were mediocre in general with 1-2 exceptions (AGAIN from a flavor point of view, not a game winning point of view). I think that's lame.

Do you understand now or is your SW prejudice so thick that you simply can't understand?

And just because every 8th edition codex has sucked as a book doesn't mean this one doesn't suck too. Compare the codices to the AoS battletomes. Clearly one is a cash grab and the other is actually pretty awesome.

My prejudice definitely doesn't compare to your projection and levels of salt that's for sure.

Look, if you were first out of the chute and had this list of complaints I'd have more sympathy but this late into the initial release cycle of this edition it comes across as ignoring the warning signs you should have been able to spot a mile away. Then again your Primarch blindly followed a traitor's orders to purge Magnus so maybe that's to be expected.

Joking aside, the point isn't that things couldn't have been better, the point is you blindly expected too much at this point and when we say as much you claim we just hate Space Wolves or something and act like we're the problem. Emperor knows I want cool Imperial Fists stuff back but it's too soon in this edition to really expect to see the level of support that something like the supplements gave subfactions.

And AoS Battletomes are released at a MUCH slower release cycle with model support. That's like comparing the a race car to a family sedan. Sure they'll both get to the destination, but one is doing it a lot faster and is more stripped down than the other one.

Seriously, I would LOVE for "more" in a lot of respects, we can't have that AND the hyper fast release cycle we have. If we were following AoS style releases to give us more we would have gotten two armies and an updated index last year after the new edition dropped. You'd be waiting for YEARS to see Space Wolves get an update and be living from update to update via index changes over anything actually aimed at your army specifically. Are you honestly claiming that's what you wanted? To still be waiting just so you could have a codex with more substantial updates instead of getting something out of the gate with room for expansion later?

Formations were never coming back though. It's not space wolf hate, it's people trying to point out your expectations were not realistic and are counter to GW game design.

This whole thread reminds me of that SNL sketch "Lowered Expectations"

What were you expecting, a good book?

Although I am happy that it appears they may have released a codex after Tyranids that isn't flatly superior like all the others which followed them.

 Marmatag wrote:
This whole thread reminds me of that SNL sketch "Lowered Expectations"

What were you expecting, a good book?

Although I am happy that it appears they may have released a codex after Tyranids that isn't flatly superior like all the others which followed them.

It's a good codex in terms of balance, it's just poor if you wanted a dozen plus pages of model pictures (something that not even the Vanilla codex managed to do, despite their wider array of paint schemes than the wolves). It's even poorer if you were the one person who misses formations but that's such a minority in the game anymore I was shocked to even see someone claim that they should have come back in any form.

The lore and hobby sides of the books needs some more expansion, but I feel like we'll be getting more of that going forward now that the basic ground work for the armies is set and no one is left waiting for an entire edition just to get a codex for their army to use.

 beir wrote:
So many people in this thread totally missing my point. I was never talking about competitive power level. It was the second sentence.

I suppose it's true that most people only read headlines.

Nah we know that. I agree with you - this is the case for every space marine codex though.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
This whole thread reminds me of that SNL sketch "Lowered Expectations"

What were you expecting, a good book?

Although I am happy that it appears they may have released a codex after Tyranids that isn't flatly superior like all the others which followed them.

It's a good codex in terms of balance, it's just poor if you wanted a dozen plus pages of model pictures (something that not even the Vanilla codex managed to do, despite their wider array of paint schemes than the wolves). It's even poorer if you were the one person who misses formations but that's such a minority in the game anymore I was shocked to even see someone claim that they should have come back in any form.

The lore and hobby sides of the books needs some more expansion, but I feel like we'll be getting more of that going forward now that the basic ground work for the armies is set and no one is left waiting for an entire edition just to get a codex for their army to use.

Maybe. I mean Genestealer Cults don't have a codex. Are they getting one? maybe a supplement of some kind?

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Formations were never coming back though. It's not space wolf hate, it's people trying to point out your expectations were not realistic and are counter to GW game design.

Formations did come back as stratagems. The Linebreaker formation from 7th came back as a stratagem, to name one example (that I don't think anyone really wanted that much). There are many more examples from different codices.

That's not really a formation, that was a unit bonus if you took three of something.

A battle demi company was a formation. Taking three Vindicators in one unit to get a slight bonus was not.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
That's not really a formation, that was a unit bonus if you took three of something.

A battle demi company was a formation. Taking three Vindicators in one unit to get a slight bonus was not.

There were many datasheets/formations in 7th that were smaller scale than a full battle demi company. The battle demi company was the 'decurion' for SM. The linebreaker squadron was a formation (i.e. a set number of units that, when taken as a group, gave you some special rules as a bonus). Librarius conclave (which I'm glad didn't come back) was a formation. The Wyrdstorm Brotherhood was a formation and sort of came back as the 'Living Storm' stratagem in this codex.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
That's not really a formation, that was a unit bonus if you took three of something.

A battle demi company was a formation. Taking three Vindicators in one unit to get a slight bonus was not.

No, he's right, there are stratagems that have taken the name of formations.

The problem is these aren't very good, because it requires a minimum number of units to be used. So, one of your linebreaker vehicles dies and the stratagem is gone. It sounds good but in practice these aren't used for a reason.

But, I do agree that space marines can be largely fixed with better stratagems.

 beir wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Formations were never coming back though. It's not space wolf hate, it's people trying to point out your expectations were not realistic and are counter to GW game design.

Formations did come back as stratagems. The Linebreaker formation from 7th came back as a stratagem, to name one example (that I don't think anyone really wanted that much). There are many more examples from different codices.

Know what also came back as a stratagem? Some equipment (T'au stimulant injectors). Seriously, just because thing A had a set name in one edition is no reason to complain that it's something different in another. People have spent pages and pages telling you how irrationally you are acting, and you double down. I seriously think you're just trolling.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 beir wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Formations were never coming back though. It's not space wolf hate, it's people trying to point out your expectations were not realistic and are counter to GW game design.

Formations did come back as stratagems. The Linebreaker formation from 7th came back as a stratagem, to name one example (that I don't think anyone really wanted that much). There are many more examples from different codices.

Know what also came back as a stratagem? Some equipment (T'au stimulant injectors). Seriously, just because thing A had a set name in one edition is no reason to complain that it's something different in another. People have spent pages and pages telling you how irrationally you are acting, and you double down. I seriously think you're just trolling.

Holy gak, what are you talking about? I don't care what they get turned into now.

I don't expect formations to come back. I think the new CP system is much better. I want the flavor of some of my old favorite formations to show up somewhere. I liked the cool, fluffy things they added to games that are gone now.

What makes me sad isn't if the book is competitive or not, what makes me scratch my head are the point tweaks, and weapon changes here and there.

Blizz dreads are essentially not as good as they use to be, and I think they went up in points a tad. The Axe got changed to be -1 instead of +1 attack. I don't know why. I'd rather it do one thing really, really well. 4++ is good too, but not the same.

Wolf lord on mount going up when the jump pack is better at this point.

The little fenrision wolves going up a couple of points, not sure on the reasoning.

-1 to hit within 6 inches strat being 3cp? Ouch.

Warp charge increase on +1 cover, why tho??


These changes only bother me when comparing to other books of course.The imperial knight book is something brutal with that Castellan, it's strats are cheap and easily used in plenty with a guard battalion. You could in theory use a guard battaltion with the space wolves but its not as efficient.


Anyway thats the ugly, The good:

Wulfen Dreads, two heavy flamers, hell yes.
Cata and Tartaros options, yes please.
Long fangs with plasma are the wolves knees
Lone Wolf Strategem
Psychic powers are fun.
Power fists on my Wolf priest holy hell yes
Logan down in points
Bjorn down in points
Cheaper shields on Calvary
2+ armor on logans slay (Shouldve been a given to be fair)
Wulfen. Just Wulfen in general.
The relics, 2 of them particularly.
Paying patronage to the young Brand.

Not a bad release though!

 beir wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 beir wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Formations were never coming back though. It's not space wolf hate, it's people trying to point out your expectations were not realistic and are counter to GW game design.

Formations did come back as stratagems. The Linebreaker formation from 7th came back as a stratagem, to name one example (that I don't think anyone really wanted that much). There are many more examples from different codices.

Know what also came back as a stratagem? Some equipment (T'au stimulant injectors). Seriously, just because thing A had a set name in one edition is no reason to complain that it's something different in another. People have spent pages and pages telling you how irrationally you are acting, and you double down. I seriously think you're just trolling.

Holy gak, what are you talking about? I don't care what they get turned into now.

I don't expect formations to come back. I think the new CP system is much better. I want the flavor of some of my old favorite formations to show up somewhere. I liked the cool, fluffy things they added to games that are gone now.

Then I need to refer you to the initial page and its responses - this was repeatedly addressed, no need to drone on and on about it. I also find it funny that you call others "triggered" for responding as such, when clearly you're the one with the chip on your shoulder here.

"Warp charge increase on +1 cover, why tho?? "

Because that power was nuts at its old WC.

 KingCorpus wrote:

These changes only bother me when comparing to other books of course.The imperial knight book is something brutal with that Castellan, it's strats are cheap and easily used in plenty with a guard battalion. You could in theory use a guard battaltion with the space wolves but its not as efficient.

Knights and custodes codex aren't the problem, neither is there strategums. They work fine qhen your paying 160 points to 250 points or more per CP(pure knights list) similar for Custodes it when they are given 5CP for sub 200 points that the issue's start.

There strateguns are costed for 1 CP per 160 to 300 point not 1 CP per 40 points that IG pay(before farming).

 KingCorpus wrote:
W
Paying patronage to the young Brand.

I've not been able to find this homage BTW where is it?

BrianDavion wrote:

 KingCorpus wrote:
W
Paying patronage to the young Brand.

I've not been able to find this homage BTW where is it?

Page 134.

You know what would suck? Your sub-faction getting a codex apart from the parent faction and your two iconic units, the units that the faction is visibly identified by.....receive no stratagems.
Then on top of that, to make use of most of the new codex you have to invest in "new" units.

I wonder whom this happened to?

Table wrote:
You know what would suck? Your sub-faction getting a codex apart from the parent faction and your two iconic units, the units that the faction is visibly identified by.....receive no stratagems.
Then on top of that, to make use of most of the new codex you have to invest in "new" units.

I wonder whom this happened to?

Not as much as a entire Racial Faction not yet getting a codex (Orks) whilst a subfaction of a subfaction - Imperium/Marines/Space Wolves getting a Codex first....

 Ghaz wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 KingCorpus wrote:
W
Paying patronage to the young Brand.

I've not been able to find this homage BTW where is it?

Page 134.

ahh very nice.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Table wrote:
You know what would suck? Your sub-faction getting a codex apart from the parent faction and your two iconic units, the units that the faction is visibly identified by.....receive no stratagems.
Then on top of that, to make use of most of the new codex you have to invest in "new" units.

I wonder whom this happened to?

Not as much as a entire Racial Faction not yet getting a codex (Orks) whilst a subfaction of a subfaction - Imperium/Marines/Space Wolves getting a Codex first....

Well played. Russ would be proud.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Table wrote:
You know what would suck? Your sub-faction getting a codex apart from the parent faction and your two iconic units, the units that the faction is visibly identified by.....receive no stratagems.
Then on top of that, to make use of most of the new codex you have to invest in "new" units.

I wonder whom this happened to?

Not as much as a entire Racial Faction not yet getting a codex (Orks) whilst a subfaction of a subfaction - Imperium/Marines/Space Wolves getting a Codex first....

Well played. Russ would be proud.

Nah If Russ was a Ork player he'd head over to the GW HQ, climb the building, stick his head in the CEO's window and scream "I WANT ME WAAAAAGH AND I WANTS IT NOW YE PONSY GIT!"

Yea but who cares about Orks? GW?

 beir wrote:


No, most of my complaints were about lack of flavor/diversity and lack of painted and converted model photos of new units in the book.

You mean the Wulfen Dread? Which is literally just repurposed parts from the existing SW dread kit? It's not a new kit. All the other "new" stuff is existing kits. Are you just complaining they're not in there in SW colours?

 Grimtuff wrote:

 beir wrote:


No, most of my complaints were about lack of flavor/diversity and lack of painted and converted model photos of new units in the book.

You mean the Wulfen Dread? Which is literally just repurposed parts from the existing SW dread kit? It's not a new kit. All the other "new" stuff is existing kits. Are you just complaining they're not in there in SW colours?

We totally need a visual example of how to paint cataphracti terminator armor in space wolf colours man!

 Grimtuff wrote:

 beir wrote:


No, most of my complaints were about lack of flavor/diversity and lack of painted and converted model photos of new units in the book.

You mean the Wulfen Dread? Which is literally just repurposed parts from the existing SW dread kit? It's not a new kit. All the other "new" stuff is existing kits. Are you just complaining they're not in there in SW colours?

If you had read my first post, you would know the answer to this question.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 beir wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Formations were never coming back though. It's not space wolf hate, it's people trying to point out your expectations were not realistic and are counter to GW game design.

Formations did come back as stratagems. The Linebreaker formation from 7th came back as a stratagem, to name one example (that I don't think anyone really wanted that much). There are many more examples from different codices.

Know what also came back as a stratagem? Some equipment (T'au stimulant injectors). Seriously, just because thing A had a set name in one edition is no reason to complain that it's something different in another. People have spent pages and pages telling you how irrationally you are acting, and you double down. I seriously think you're just trolling.

Dude what are you even saying?

The guy said he was upset his favorite flavored formations didn't get turned into stratagems, and then got a response from a couple of people unable to read past an opening sentence trying to counter that with "but formations aren't in 8th/stop complaining about balance!".

If you still haven't worked out what he's saying at this point, it doesn't make him the troll here.



And the fact that this is coming from me should say you something, considering most people know how I feel about whiny power armour players. This is not it. This is just you guys overreacting to something that isn't there.

 beir wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 beir wrote:


No, most of my complaints were about lack of flavor/diversity and lack of painted and converted model photos of new units in the book.

You mean the Wulfen Dread? Which is literally just repurposed parts from the existing SW dread kit? It's not a new kit. All the other "new" stuff is existing kits. Are you just complaining they're not in there in SW colours?

If you had read my first post, you would know the answer to this question.

Do you really need tips on how to make primaris into more space wolfy stuff? I mean we do see some illustrations of primaris space marines, and well.. the way to convert is pretty much the same way to convert anything. take some wolf tails, wolf necklaces and furs and toss em on the model. I was wolfing our my primaris Marines before the codex even hit.

BrianDavion wrote:

 beir wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 beir wrote:


No, most of my complaints were about lack of flavor/diversity and lack of painted and converted model photos of new units in the book.

You mean the Wulfen Dread? Which is literally just repurposed parts from the existing SW dread kit? It's not a new kit. All the other "new" stuff is existing kits. Are you just complaining they're not in there in SW colours?

If you had read my first post, you would know the answer to this question.

Do you really need tips on how to make primaris into more space wolfy stuff? I mean we do see some illustrations of primaris space marines, and well.. the way to convert is pretty much the same way to convert anything. take some wolf tails, wolf necklaces and furs and toss em on the model. I was wolfing our my primaris Marines before the codex even hit.

Do I need it? Probably not. Did I expect it in a codex that really serves no other purpose (considering BattleScribe exists, etc.)? Yes.

One example of GW showing conversions in the past - the SW codex last edition had a wolf priest in terminator armor conversion. They used the skull from the venerable dreadnought kit, something I hadn't even really considered. It was cool to see and inspiring to try and emulate. I wanted something inspirational for the 'Primaris Wolf Priest' and 'Primaris Rune Priest', both of which don't look at all like space wolf units right now. Maybe they added some conversion bits, maybe they painted some runes on the armor, maybe they switched the head of the librarian for another, more SW-styled one, i don't know. That's why I wanted them to show something.

I'm amazed so many people are so willing to defend getting less for your money by flaming me. Why? Because you think I have a sense of entitlement? Everyone should expect more for their money than these 8th edition codices. Especially given how long they took to make this one - just what were they working on?

BrianDavion wrote:

 beir wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 beir wrote:


No, most of my complaints were about lack of flavor/diversity and lack of painted and converted model photos of new units in the book.

You mean the Wulfen Dread? Which is literally just repurposed parts from the existing SW dread kit? It's not a new kit. All the other "new" stuff is existing kits. Are you just complaining they're not in there in SW colours?

If you had read my first post, you would know the answer to this question.

Do you really need tips on how to make primaris into more space wolfy stuff? I mean we do see some illustrations of primaris space marines, and well.. the way to convert is pretty much the same way to convert anything. take some wolf tails, wolf necklaces and furs and toss em on the model. I was wolfing our my primaris Marines before the codex even hit.

The pictures are very helpful! I know in my case I thought the wolf cloaks were bathroom mats so I was going to glue them to the base. Those pics saved me a lot of embarrassment.

So what about all the black legion players who got crapped on 4 editions in a row? How many awesome new units have they gotten? That about a new Abbadon model? His 4 chief lieutenants? The literal arch-villian of the setting has a 25 year old model, paired with 15+year old models for 80% if the army ALONG WITH hot garbage for a legion tactic. But no... having 12 special characters with great roles, greater synergies and, aside from one, very recent models, a great all rounder codex with a host of cheap versatile stratagems isn't enough. Take a look-see at all the things other factions lost, then predictably come back and say that you're still the whipping boy.

StarHunter25 wrote:
So what about all the black legion players who got crapped on 4 editions in a row? How many awesome new units have they gotten? That about a new Abbadon model? His 4 chief lieutenants? The literal arch-villian of the setting has a 25 year old model, paired with 15+year old models for 80% if the army ALONG WITH hot garbage for a legion tactic. But no... having 12 special characters with great roles, greater synergies and, aside from one, very recent models, a great all rounder codex with a host of cheap versatile stratagems isn't enough. Take a look-see at all the things other factions lost, then predictably come back and say that you're still the whipping boy.

All of those things suck too? Who said SW is the whipping boy?

Jesus, this forum is so filled with people reading what they want into everything. Leave your baggage at the door.

 beir wrote:

StarHunter25 wrote:
So what about all the black legion players who got crapped on 4 editions in a row? How many awesome new units have they gotten? That about a new Abbadon model? His 4 chief lieutenants? The literal arch-villian of the setting has a 25 year old model, paired with 15+year old models for 80% if the army ALONG WITH hot garbage for a legion tactic. But no... having 12 special characters with great roles, greater synergies and, aside from one, very recent models, a great all rounder codex with a host of cheap versatile stratagems isn't enough. Take a look-see at all the things other factions lost, then predictably come back and say that you're still the whipping boy.

All of those things suck too? Who said SW is the whipping boy?

Jesus, this forum is so filled with people reading what they want into everything. Leave your baggage at the door.

you're the one who started a post saying the space wolf codex sucks well complaining about stuff we all saw coming.

 Marmatag wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
This whole thread reminds me of that SNL sketch "Lowered Expectations"

What were you expecting, a good book?

Although I am happy that it appears they may have released a codex after Tyranids that isn't flatly superior like all the others which followed them.

It's a good codex in terms of balance, it's just poor if you wanted a dozen plus pages of model pictures (something that not even the Vanilla codex managed to do, despite their wider array of paint schemes than the wolves). It's even poorer if you were the one person who misses formations but that's such a minority in the game anymore I was shocked to even see someone claim that they should have come back in any form.

The lore and hobby sides of the books needs some more expansion, but I feel like we'll be getting more of that going forward now that the basic ground work for the armies is set and no one is left waiting for an entire edition just to get a codex for their army to use.

Maybe. I mean Genestealer Cults don't have a codex. Are they getting one? maybe a supplement of some kind?

GSC and Sisters should be 2019. SoS and Inquisition if we're lucky, but those two might be a ways out before we see them actually get proper support.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 beir wrote:

Do I need it? Probably not. Did I expect it in a codex that really serves no other purpose (considering BattleScribe exists, etc.)? Yes.

One example of GW showing conversions in the past - the SW codex last edition had a wolf priest in terminator armor conversion. They used the skull from the venerable dreadnought kit, something I hadn't even really considered. It was cool to see and inspiring to try and emulate. I wanted something inspirational for the 'Primaris Wolf Priest' and 'Primaris Rune Priest', both of which don't look at all like space wolf units right now. Maybe they added some conversion bits, maybe they painted some runes on the armor, maybe they switched the head of the librarian for another, more SW-styled one, i don't know. That's why I wanted them to show something.

I'm amazed so many people are so willing to defend getting less for your money by flaming me. Why? Because you think I have a sense of entitlement? Everyone should expect more for their money than these 8th edition codices. Especially given how long they took to make this one - just what were they working on?

You expected the codex to somehow be more than any of the other codexes (which were a mostly balanced update to the index options that added back many options that went missing when they were made into indexes). No one is really sure why you expected that, but maybe that's because most of us didn't inflate our expectations based on whatever you were basing yours on because I can't find a basis for any of this.

GW has largely moved away from showing off conversions (Khan lost his bike because of it, the Orks lost characters because of it). Is it sad? Honestly yes, but it's another casualty in the fallout that was the Chapterhouse case.

And honestly, GW might not have done anything to those Space Wolf versions of the Primaris characters and expect you to use the base kit for the forseeable future. I'm sure the internet will have some cool ways of fixing the models though. And the internet won't even charge us for it!

It's less defending the book for being less than you expected than pointing out you expected more than anyone else got and it was unrealistic to have such inflated exepectations based on current trends. But keep blaming us for saying the book is just like all the others instead of admitting you wanted more than you should have expected.

Waaaaah. Stop whining and enjoy the fact you have your very own book, dice, datacards, ten thousand Wolf-units and a black library worth of dedicated fluff.

Try playing a vanilla chapter other than fething Ultramarines, resisting the urge to soup, building a fluffy army only to get a single page in the worst codex in 8th, a single special character and some CT that is about as much use as a chocolate fireguard.

Process wrote:
Waaaaah. Stop whining and enjoy the fact you have your very own book, dice, datacards, ten thousand Wolf-units and a black library worth of dedicated fluff.

Try playing a vanilla chapter other than fething Ultramarines, resisting the urge to soup, building a fluffy army only to get a single page in the worst codex in 8th, a single special character and some CT that is about as much use as a chocolate fireguard.

Vanilla Marines didn't even get a special Primaris option the non-codex chapters did. Or an upgrade kit for non-UM chapters. I've started mucking about with decals just because I can't get molded chapter shoulder pads for Fists from GW anymore (on the flipside, now I'm making a Primaris Fists legion so it has some perks I guess). If you're vanilla you're basically just UM with a different paintjob in GW's eyes it feels sometimes.

 Galef wrote:

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I think the only "marine" book that could give SW book a run for best well rounded marine book, is death guard.

Since those are your main armies, you must be a happy camper right about now?

You betcha! Plague marines get a bad rep in mathhammer, but they are worlds ahead of any other power armor troop in the game. Super fun to run, and almost as versatile as wolf guard.

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Bjorn_the_Fell_Handed#Bjorn_the_Fell_Handed:_Dark_Imperium

Bjorn the Fell Handed: Dark Imperium
"I HAVE AWOKEN, IS IT TIME FOR WA-... WERE YOU LOT ALWAYS THIS BIG?"

The_Real_Chris wrote:
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Bjorn_the_Fell_Handed#Bjorn_the_Fell_Handed:_Dark_Imperium

Bjorn the Fell Handed: Dark Imperium
"I HAVE AWOKEN, IS IT TIME FOR WA-... WERE YOU LOT ALWAYS THIS BIG?"

The Blood Ravens one is still the best one.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The Blood Ravens one is still the best one.

“THOSE ARE MY TERMS. AGREE AND I’LL PRETEND NOT TO NOTICE WHAT YOU THIEVING LITTLE BASTARDS HAVE DONE. DEAL?”

7th-edition customization and variety were illusory. If you have 100 options, but 1 is clearly better than the others and everyone takes it, you do not actually have 100 options, you have 1

40K is REALLY bad for false choices.

the_scotsman wrote:

Kurnost wrote:
The_Scotsman, thanks for pointing me towards the stratagem. I'd missed it in my first read through.

Where can I find this Index Flowchart you speak of?

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf

Last page.

Anything that *is* in the index, but *isn't* in the codex - be that wargear, or unit - can still be used with the index rules, unchanged.

Personally, I think the Lone Wolf stratagem is way cooler than Lone Wolf the index unit (because it happens organically, in game, a model who is the last survivor of the unit becomes a character and starts doing awesome stuff) but you can still take Lone Wolf the index unit.

Of course gw having deliberately make index worse than codex means index stuff is generally overpriced

tneva82 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Kurnost wrote:
The_Scotsman, thanks for pointing me towards the stratagem. I'd missed it in my first read through.

Where can I find this Index Flowchart you speak of?

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf

Last page.

Anything that *is* in the index, but *isn't* in the codex - be that wargear, or unit - can still be used with the index rules, unchanged.

Personally, I think the Lone Wolf stratagem is way cooler than Lone Wolf the index unit (because it happens organically, in game, a model who is the last survivor of the unit becomes a character and starts doing awesome stuff) but you can still take Lone Wolf the index unit.

Of course gw having deliberately make index worse than codex means index stuff is generally overpriced

Unless you are space marines - where basically everything is the same price as it was in the index and a few things got more expensive.

Alcibiades wrote:
7th-edition customization and variety were illusory. If you have 100 options, but 1 is clearly better than the others and everyone takes it, you do not actually have 100 options, you have 1

Then again in practice you saw more variety than now

Martel732 wrote:
40K is REALLY bad for false choices.

Ain't that the truth

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
40K is REALLY bad for false choices.

Ain't that the truth

Basically any game is like this. Theres almost always 1 best build/gear/weapon/class that is optimal and a majority of the player base uses it or tries to get it

Alcibiades wrote:
7th-edition customization and variety were illusory. If you have 100 options, but 1 is clearly better than the others and everyone takes it, you do not actually have 100 options, you have 1

Yes and no. A lot of choices were crap and wouldn't be taken but I find 8th much more obvious in what you should be taking. Army structure in my area is also a lot less varied, with CP chaff batteries along with some heavy hitters being the norm. 7th was bloated as feck but if they where not abused formations and allies allowed a lot more unique lists than today.

tneva82 wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
7th-edition customization and variety were illusory. If you have 100 options, but 1 is clearly better than the others and everyone takes it, you do not actually have 100 options, you have 1

Then again in practice you saw more variety than now

There really wasn't.

 Billagio wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
40K is REALLY bad for false choices.

Ain't that the truth

Basically any game is like this. Theres almost always 1 best build/gear/weapon/class that is optimal and a majority of the player base uses it or tries to get it

Some are way better than others.

Martel732 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
40K is REALLY bad for false choices.

Ain't that the truth

Basically any game is like this. Theres almost always 1 best build/gear/weapon/class that is optimal and a majority of the player base uses it or tries to get it

Some are way better than others.

Some are even worse

Billagio wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
40K is REALLY bad for false choices.

Ain't that the truth

Basically any game is like this. Theres almost always 1 best build/gear/weapon/class that is optimal and a majority of the player base uses it or tries to get it

No, there's basically this attraction most playerbase's have to latching on to what they percieve as the best way to do something and championing it as "THE" way to do something and thinking every other option scrubby. Usually its something they've seen a better player use or something pub stompy that they and other players of their level struggle to deal with, but higher level players do not. Yet even at the highest level you see them doing different things all the time, and its only after they do so that these same mid level players who were calling it bad yesterday will start parroting it as a great option. Some options are always going to be bad, but never as many as the general player base of a game will have written off first.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
7th-edition customization and variety were illusory. If you have 100 options, but 1 is clearly better than the others and everyone takes it, you do not actually have 100 options, you have 1

Then again in practice you saw more variety than now

There really wasn't.

Remember everyone, 7th was literally the edition of building your list for you. Take these specific models that we just so happen to have a (no discount) bundle for, or don't get your army's special rules.