My gaming group was talking about this. My thought is that GW will stop printing new copies once the last Codex hits. After all, the Indexes were meant as a stop gap until every Codex was released. Others in my group think they'll stick around until 9th Edition hits. Still others think they'll stick around more or less forever and all of the Index only units will show up in future editions as well.
If they're going to do it, probably around the time the last Codex drops. Maybe they'll wait until the next big FAQ or CA after that book before making the decision. If it does happen I'd love them to update their model range for some armies to take into account things that were lost and add them back in somehow. I think removing the confusing situation of having access to, for example, 2 different Autarchs is a good thing. I hate the idea of losing something like a Sanguinary Priest with a Jump Pack just because GW don't make the model any more.
maybe even making them open/narrative only (like the Custom Land Raider rules)
but there's a fair amount of old models around that we'd lose access to.
alternatively .. it could go to White Dwarf to keep releasing "INDEX - LEGACY" where you find all the old stuff for open games only in one index rather than several
They're here for awhile. 9th edition is unlikely to be a reset like 8th was, so the existing Codexes and Indexes will probably continue to usable with the main game rules for the next decade.
If the Indexes go out-of-print, I can see ITC and other tournament organizers banning them from their events though to keep a level playing field. Maybe they'll drop out of Matched Play too at that point - things like the missile launcher sniper Autarch show it can be difficult to balance new books with 30 years of accumulated options.
I imagine they will be printing them up to right before the release of 9th edition. there are plenty of legacy models in the indexes that were not put in the codexes because GW no longer makes the model. people are coming back to the hobby all the time and will want to use thier older models as more than counts as.
example there is no longer a big mek with kff in the codex or big mek with kff on the bike. I have both, and plan to keep using both when i pick up my codex saturday so i will need to keep the index around.
Not sure if the Imperial Armour units are in the codexes, so that one might stick around indefinitely. I would expect that once the codexes all supercede the indexes the redundant indexes will be finished with.
Martel732 wrote: Hopefully soon. I'm tired of referencing them already.
Well, you can just stop using the index-only options right now if that's what you want.
I really hope the options in these books will not go away permanently. If they want to keep the main codices containing only stuff currently in production, maybe they could just put all the legacy options in FW books or something. There could be a codex for each army, which has the stuff GW currently sells, and an separate appendix book for each army which has all the legacy stuff and FW units and possibly other esoteric things like looted wagons for Orks. Then newbies won't be confused by them but more dedicated hobbyists can still use them.
1) Remove indexes once all factions have a codex. By this stage no army range will even have an index linked on its store tab, nor will GW stores be stocking them on the shelves. So already they will be softly removed. AT that point GW can formally end their production.
2) Soft removal. As said above GW will already have soft removed them once every army has a codex. At that point they can just retire the product from active selling, but keep them around as a legacy. AT that point I'd expect them to vanish if/when a 9th edition is released or just soon after.
3) Replacement. We don't fully know GW's plan for a 9th edition release. They could release Index at launch and go from there, however I'd wager that as every army will have an up to date 8th edition codex, GW might slip back to just rolling out replacement Codex over time (another year of codex releases). Ergo the codex you have now would turn into the next editions "index" content and then you'd get a new 9th edition at some stage.
4) Remove, but release a legacy rule book that contains all the index contents for index only models. Could be a neat way to tidy it up without removing them and giving them aviable and simple to use product. This way there's less confusion as the index would only list legacy models.
That said it would go against GW's current policy of producing models for everything they print rules for.
That said they've done this legacy approach for AoS, however that is a slightly different product.
In general I see index like old base sizes. IT will stick around for a while and GW will market and "let you use" it in games. However after a while it will vanish and the player scene (esp competitive) will push them out and force people to "modernize" their army.
Remembering that many of the index only models could return in the future in some form, so its not as if losing the index totally removes the idea for the model. Champions (or whatever) on space marine bikes could return; Shrikes for Tyranids could fly back (new model or just new warrior kit with wings)
Since there is a crap ton of legacy models in the index and faq states that these legacy models uses the last printed rules, aka index, they wont go away for a loooooooooooooong time.
FrozenDwarf wrote: Since there is a crap ton of legacy models in the index and faq states that these legacy models uses the last printed rules, aka index, they wont go away for a loooooooooooooong time.
Unless they update the FAQ? FAQs/Erratas can and sometimes do change.
FrozenDwarf wrote: Since there is a crap ton of legacy models in the index and faq states that these legacy models uses the last printed rules, aka index, they wont go away for a loooooooooooooong time.
Unless they update the FAQ? FAQs/Erratas can and sometimes do change.
One thing isn't changing in a hurry though. GW's greed.
FrozenDwarf wrote: Since there is a crap ton of legacy models in the index and faq states that these legacy models uses the last printed rules, aka index, they wont go away for a loooooooooooooong time.
Unless they update the FAQ? FAQs/Erratas can and sometimes do change.
One thing isn't changing in a hurry though. GW's greed.
True, but the whole point is that they no longer sell these models. Hard to factor greed into something you don't sell.
FrozenDwarf wrote: Since there is a crap ton of legacy models in the index and faq states that these legacy models uses the last printed rules, aka index, they wont go away for a loooooooooooooong time.
Unless they update the FAQ? FAQs/Erratas can and sometimes do change.
One thing isn't changing in a hurry though. GW's greed.
Except that GW doesn't make any more money off legacy models at all.
All those high priced ebay old models are not making a single £ for GW any more, so GW doesn't have to keep the Index around for them. I see the index as a smoothing over transition, esp as GW has pushed for codex that have the full model range on the shelf for sale. In the past GW was happy for models and upgrades to never appear or take years to appear - with the 3rd parties being able to supply the market now (and reach them through the net) GW has no interest in that money going to other companies.
Hence why they've wholesale shifted their practice. Give it a few years and many new fans won't even think of getting legacy models or such - they will be codex only gamers and that's likely the official direction that GW will head things in.
FrozenDwarf wrote: Since there is a crap ton of legacy models in the index and faq states that these legacy models uses the last printed rules, aka index, they wont go away for a loooooooooooooong time.
Unless they update the FAQ? FAQs/Erratas can and sometimes do change.
One thing isn't changing in a hurry though. GW's greed.
Except that GW doesn't make any more money off legacy models at all.
All those high priced ebay old models are not making a single £ for GW any more, so GW doesn't have to keep the Index around for them. I see the index as a smoothing over transition, esp as GW has pushed for codex that have the full model range on the shelf for sale. In the past GW was happy for models and upgrades to never appear or take years to appear - with the 3rd parties being able to supply the market now (and reach them through the net) GW has no interest in that money going to other companies.
Hence why they've wholesale shifted their practice. Give it a few years and many new fans won't even think of getting legacy models or such - they will be codex only gamers and that's likely the official direction that GW will head things in.
Many players are already Codex only. I'm lucky in that I mainly play Necrons and they didn't have many options to begin with, so not much changed for me. BUT... I'd be very hesitant to build a new Index only model, knowing that it's likely to go unsupported at some time in the future.
FrozenDwarf wrote: Since there is a crap ton of legacy models in the index and faq states that these legacy models uses the last printed rules, aka index, they wont go away for a loooooooooooooong time.
Unless they update the FAQ? FAQs/Erratas can and sometimes do change.
One thing isn't changing in a hurry though. GW's greed.
True, but the whole point is that they no longer sell these models. Hard to factor greed into something you don't sell.
They sell book though. Why settle for selling 1 book to players when you can sell 2(well 3 and soon maybe 4 with CA's. Oh and more if he plays multiple factions like in Imperial soup)
Martel732 wrote: Hopefully soon. I'm tired of referencing them already.
Just do what I did and cut out the pages you need and slip them into your Codex. I don't use Ynnari at all, so all I needed was the Autarch options for my CWE. I just cut out those pages and put them in my Codex.
As far as I am concerned, Index: Xenos 1 is already obsolete.
As others have said, GW will likely stop printing and selling the Indexes once every single Faction has been updated. I think it's telling that GW has SPECIFICALLY left 1-2 Factions un-updated per Index. It feels like they are building up to a single set of releases that will update all remaining Factions and "quietly" just ignore that the Indexes exist.
I highly doubt there will be a dramatic change after this. The Designer's Note errata will still be available for those wishing to use Index-only options.
The Indexes will not truly disappear until 9th edition, which is hopefully very, VERY far away with the new method GW is using to update rules (a la FAQs/Erratas and Chapter Approved)
Most likely it's going to be merged with Chapter Approved at least for the purpose of covering legal "conversions" like terminus ultra, characters on bike, etc.
By taking the stance of "if there's no official model, then you can't use it", it goes against the very crux of what this hobby was originally founded upon. At least, I hope they don't.
Are they still printing them? I figured any indexes are extra stock they still had at this point.
I wouldn’t be against them doing another round, TBH, with incorporated errata and points revisions. I bought all the indexes to cover the 8+ armies I have and all of two Codexes (one was a birthday gift, the other was the Knight codex). I’d be more inclined to buy another round of indexes than sink any money into Codexes.
I feel like GW is really in a no-win situation with the indices.
If they simply remove all rules for old models, people will be upset that they can't play with them.
If they keep making rules, but no models, people will be upset that they cannot buy models for their rules.
If they keep the rules for current models in one place, and rules for older and FW models in a separate place, people are upset that they need multiple sources for rules.
it's easy to suggest that keeping rules for everything makes the most people happy, but it also leads to more difficulty balancing rules. I think that realizing that some models are going to be sidelined is part of the long term health of the game.
Polonius wrote: I feel like GW is really in a no-win situation with the indices.
If they simply remove all rules for old models, people will be upset that they can't play with them.
If they keep making rules, but no models, people will be upset that they cannot buy models for their rules.
If they keep the rules for current models in one place, and rules for older and FW models in a separate place, people are upset that they need multiple sources for rules.
it's easy to suggest that keeping rules for everything makes the most people happy, but it also leads to more difficulty balancing rules. I think that realizing that some models are going to be sidelined is part of the long term health of the game.
It's one thing to provide rules for models that can be easily kitbashed, another for providing entries that NEEDS to be bought 3rd party (droppod prior to plast-kit, sporocyst, doom of malantai, to name some).
Polonius wrote: I feel like GW is really in a no-win situation with the indices.
If they simply remove all rules for old models, people will be upset that they can't play with them.
If they keep making rules, but no models, people will be upset that they cannot buy models for their rules.
If they keep the rules for current models in one place, and rules for older and FW models in a separate place, people are upset that they need multiple sources for rules.
The problem with #2 wasn't that people were upset with the lack of models, it was that people other than GW were making money selling them. Hence the switch to the no model=no rules policy.
Martel732 wrote: The game needs fewer choices as it is to facilitate balancing. I'd trashcan the indices and probably FW at this point for matched play.
Or they could just ban all the marine armies from the matched play. That instantly about halves the amount of units they need to balance, and marines are trash anyway so no proper competitive player uses them anyway.
Martel732 wrote: The game needs fewer choices as it is to facilitate balancing. I'd trashcan the indices and probably FW at this point for matched play.
Or they could just ban all the marine armies from the matched play. That instantly about halves the amount of units they need to balance, and marines are trash anyway so no proper competitive player uses them anyway.
Yes, IG should be the main Imperial focus. I'm not entirely serious.
Martel732 wrote: The game needs fewer choices as it is to facilitate balancing. I'd trashcan the indices and probably FW at this point for matched play.
Or they could just ban all the marine armies from the matched play. That instantly about halves the amount of units they need to balance, and marines are trash anyway so no proper competitive player uses them anyway.
Yes, IG should be the main Imperial focus.
I'm not entirely serious.
Martel732 wrote: The game needs fewer choices as it is to facilitate balancing. I'd trashcan the indices and probably FW at this point for matched play.
Or they could just ban all the marine armies from the matched play. That instantly about halves the amount of units they need to balance, and marines are trash anyway so no proper competitive player uses them anyway.
Yes, IG should be the main Imperial focus. I'm not entirely serious.
They already are.
I don't see IG everywhere on GW's marketing. IG are probably going to be nerfed anyway in CA.
I think they will eventually introduce a "beta rule" banning index units, but only if all units have received a placing in a codex. In the end it will be unprofitable for them to hold onto the index as people will only need an entry or two and they will most likely photocopy them.
This will probably be hastened if people manage to exploit an index unit.
The indices need to go. Too much wonky legacy crap.
If the choice is between more options with worse balance or less options with better balance, I would definitely choose the former.
Same, I really don't want to see them delete options. Its not terribly hard to tone down list builds to make more units work. It will be much harder to house rule dozen of units back into existence.
Martel732 wrote: The game needs fewer choices as it is to facilitate balancing. I'd trashcan the indices and probably FW at this point for matched play.
You know Martel, is very difficult to take your rants about marines seriously while you show this lack of empathy for other people (adjusted to tabletop gaming of course, I mean in a trivial matter anyway).
In these days, people are taking badly some choice of the new Ork codex, because models considered basic like the Megarmoured Warboss orthe Non-MA Big Mek with KFF did not make it.
I am fairly sure Ork players could make good use of few units that intuitively should exist, and this would not affect balance.
Here's the thing - its only removing options in the short term. I'm very sure GW will bring us new options (models) and might even bring some of the legacy models back into production with new sculpts.
Removing the index levels the playing field for old and new gamers and means that we know what to expect in games. In the short term it means less options (variable impact on some armies) however in the long term we should end up with a game with tighter, better rules; plus new sculpts and models in the future
Martel732 wrote: False dilemma. We can have fewer units than current 40k and more than chess.
Why are indices so important to you?
There are cool units like Rough Riders, there are all sorts of little weapon options that allow giving some flavour to characters. And of course a lot of people have models for this stuff, they should be allowed to use them. And it is not only that, more options is just inherently a good thing, encouraging conversion and kitbashing is good.
Simple. I've basically given up on marines and no longer care. GW can't handle the number of factions they currently have, much less legacy support for a bunch of 15 year old options.
Dakka is a wonderful place to develop a complete lack of empathy, btw. The indices need to go.
Martel732 wrote: False dilemma. We can have fewer units than current 40k and more than chess.
Why are indices so important to you?
There are cool units like Rough Riders, there are all sorts of little weapon options that allow giving some flavour to characters. And of course a lot of people have models for this stuff, they should be allowed to use them. And it is not only that, more options is just inherently a good thing, encouraging conversion and kitbashing is good.
Codex drukhari told me I cant use 90% of my collection. Spare me the "people have models" argument.
Martel732 wrote: Simple. I've basically given up on marines and no longer care. GW can't handle the number of factions they currently have, much less legacy support for a bunch of 15 year old options.
Dakka is a wonderful place to develop a complete lack of empathy, btw. The indices need to go.
Martel732 wrote: False dilemma. We can have fewer units than current 40k and more than chess.
Why are indices so important to you?
There are cool units like Rough Riders, there are all sorts of little weapon options that allow giving some flavour to characters. And of course a lot of people have models for this stuff, they should be allowed to use them. And it is not only that, more options is just inherently a good thing, encouraging conversion and kitbashing is good.
Codex drukhari told me I cant use 90% of my collection. Spare me the "people have models" argument.
Crimson wrote: So because your army was handled terribly, everyone's army should? Stellar logic, mate!
I think it would help considerably in the long run. GW should probably cut back to 200 units total and go from there. That's not happening, so the indices seem a good place to cut.
It's not my army anymore. I play ig soup usually now.
Crimson wrote: So because your army was handled terribly, everyone's army should? Stellar logic, mate!
I think it would help considerably in the long run. GW should probably cut back to 200 units total and go from there. That's not happening, so the indices seem a good place to cut.
200 units total? You do realize you would have to delete entire factions to get down to that level, and not just the smaller sub factions. Your essentially stating that GW should trash 1000s of mini's.
I'd expect 9th edition to say something like "index units cannot be used in matched play, if you want them in open/narrative go nuts" and be done with it.
As I get older I lose sympathy for this approach of "I built this model in 2005 and I should be able to use it!!!" This doesn't apply to almost any other activity you would approach in life.
Martel732 wrote: Simple. I've basically given up on marines and no longer care. GW can't handle the number of factions they currently have, much less legacy support for a bunch of 15 year old options.
Dakka is a wonderful place to develop a complete lack of empathy, btw. The indices need to go.
Martel732 wrote: False dilemma. We can have fewer units than current 40k and more than chess.
Why are indices so important to you?
There are cool units like Rough Riders, there are all sorts of little weapon options that allow giving some flavour to characters. And of course a lot of people have models for this stuff, they should be allowed to use them. And it is not only that, more options is just inherently a good thing, encouraging conversion and kitbashing is good.
Codex drukhari told me I cant use 90% of my collection. Spare me the "people have models" argument.
90%? How is that even possible?
Hes saying 90% of his codex is unplayable when armies like drukari exist. It's true.
Tyel wrote: I'd expect 9th edition to say something like "index units cannot be used in matched play, if you want them in open/narrative go nuts" and be done with it.
As I get older I lose sympathy for this approach of "I built this model in 2005 and I should be able to use it!!!" This doesn't apply to almost any other activity you would approach in life.
What if you bought it? Its a GW model. There has to be some use for it.
The Big Mek model isn't even all that old. Its like, 3 editions old.
Martel732 wrote: Yup. It's their own fault in my view. Math fail after math fail for 25 years.
Ok I get the marine hate but 90% of a dark eldar army being useless borders on comical considering it's one of the strongest factions this edition. That book has maybe two or three truly bad units.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: What if you bought it? Its a GW model. There has to be some use for it.
The Big Mek model isn't even all that old. Its like, 3 editions old.
Why? Things decay.
If I bought a 15 year old computer it wouldn't do me much good. If I bought a 15 year old cinema ticket it would be completely useless. A 15 year old set of trainers probably wouldn't get me very far.
I don't see why an item - which I may or may not have bought from GW or instead after 10 people traded it across ebay - should still be viable a generation after it was initially released. Nothing else on earth works this way.
Tyel wrote: I'd expect 9th edition to say something like "index units cannot be used in matched play, if you want them in open/narrative go nuts" and be done with it.
As I get older I lose sympathy for this approach of "I built this model in 2005 and I should be able to use it!!!" This doesn't apply to almost any other activity you would approach in life.
What if you bought it? Its a GW model. There has to be some use for it.
The Big Mek model isn't even all that old. Its like, 3 editions old.
Yes but eventually it has to go away.
Heck consider that each YEAR Magic the Gathering basically invalidates most of the cards you bought last year (and all of them from previous years) if you want to keep up to the current standard edition (without going for their unlimited which is mostly full of very specific choice overpowered cards from various editions). And most people seem to love MTG.
Warhammer you will see things become invalid, its happened for years. It's one reason Tyranid players are big on using magnets because many have had specifi weapon combos go invalid or vanish over the years.
Plus many things go away but come back again later, either directly or indirectly. The "Doom" Zoanthrope for Tyranids is gone, but many now use their Doom as a Neurothrope.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: What if you bought it? Its a GW model. There has to be some use for it.
The Big Mek model isn't even all that old. Its like, 3 editions old.
Why? Things decay.
If I bought a 15 year old computer it wouldn't do me much good. If I bought a 15 year old cinema ticket it would be completely useless. A 15 year old set of trainers probably wouldn't get me very far.
I don't see why an item - which I may or may not have bought from GW or instead after 10 people traded it across ebay - should still be viable a generation after it was initially released. Nothing else on earth works this way.
You say that, and yet I can use my necron warriors just fine. They're even older than my mek.
Its almost as if computer hardware and expendable goods such as tickets aren't like models.
Options like FW autocannon arms for dreads should never have been removed from the codex. It's not even a "no model" issue and those damned arms were not cheap (although they never see the table anyways because dreads are over-priced pieces of junk).
I have no idea what GW was thinking or what they are going to do. It wasn't a balance decision to do it but it has created a records keeping/balance mess and like other posters have stated they've painted themselves into a bit of a corner. Although once they squat marines for primaris they might as well just squat everything else they don't make enough money on and just deal with one massive "REEEEE!!!" instead of death by a thousand tears...
I think people are right about Matched Play eventually banning Index units as some of them are no longer available and it would create potential friction between new players and old and encourage recasters to create copies of out of print units.
For those thinking that GW would be mad to do this I would love to remind you that they more or less did this with Warhammer Fantasy/Age of Sigmar.
Tyel wrote: I'd expect 9th edition to say something like "index units cannot be used in matched play, if you want them in open/narrative go nuts" and be done with it.
As I get older I lose sympathy for this approach of "I built this model in 2005 and I should be able to use it!!!" This doesn't apply to almost any other activity you would approach in life.
What if you bought it? Its a GW model. There has to be some use for it. The Big Mek model isn't even all that old. Its like, 3 editions old.
Yes but eventually it has to go away. Heck consider that each YEAR Magic the Gathering basically invalidates most of the cards you bought last year (and all of them from previous years) if you want to keep up to the current standard edition (without going for their unlimited which is mostly full of very specific choice overpowered cards from various editions). And most people seem to love MTG.
Warhammer you will see things become invalid, its happened for years. It's one reason Tyranid players are big on using magnets because many have had specifi weapon combos go invalid or vanish over the years.
Plus many things go away but come back again later, either directly or indirectly. The "Doom" Zoanthrope for Tyranids is gone, but many now use their Doom as a Neurothrope.
I wouldn't say it "has" to go away. Its not as if every model has a use by date. Sometimes I get the reasons why. One of my favorite models are Pariahs, and they don't exist anymore because they don't fit in the fluff anymore. I don't like it, but I can understand they wanted to in another direction. Lychguard are supposed to be their "spiritual" successor. I get that. I don't like it, but I get it. But dropping things like the big Mek? Or Mega Armored Warbosses? That doesn't make sense. There was no good reason for that, other than GW being butthurt that the lost the chapterhouse case.
So what if MTG invalidates cards every year? I don't play MTG, and if GW pulled that crap and tried telling me that I can't use my entire collection that I painted and built myself over the years because its too old for their liking, then I'll go find another company that's not run by greedy witches.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: What if you bought it? Its a GW model. There has to be some use for it.
The Big Mek model isn't even all that old. Its like, 3 editions old.
Why? Things decay.
If I bought a 15 year old computer it wouldn't do me much good. If I bought a 15 year old cinema ticket it would be completely useless. A 15 year old set of trainers probably wouldn't get me very far.
I don't see why an item - which I may or may not have bought from GW or instead after 10 people traded it across ebay - should still be viable a generation after it was initially released. Nothing else on earth works this way.
One could argue that it's not an healthy way to handle items in general, especially for the planet, but we would digress.
Besides...there is a matter of dedication to the army from GW's part, too. Some model, even merely because of the fluff, should exist (see the MA Warboss - how comes nobz can afford the MA but the Warboss does not have this option?). We witness Primaris Lieutenant nr 65 being advertised, and basic models for other armies are neglected.
Above anything else, it's unfair.
Martel732 wrote: Maybe because even they are overwhelmed at this point? Or they just felt like it. Doesn't really matter does it?
I take the opposite opinion, the game has never been better than now with how many options are supported and GW digging further into the fluff to have more and more factions. If someone wants to break the game they'll do it whether we have 50 options or 5000. The hobby as a whole is healthier when it supports options, converstions and legacy. 40k's biggest strength is it's history and seeing older minis pop up brings me joy. Having models (expire) for lack of a better term is a terrible idea.
I fully understand Tournaments banning Index units as games go on (less material for them to have on hand to check, etc.).
Regarding the no-model-no-rules thing...it's the worst decision GW has made, and will impact the game heavily as the years go on. Right now, everyone more or less has the benefit of older kits, and the datasheet reflects this. As kits are slowly weened off production, we'll see less and less, and it's a super gak decision in my opinion. I wouldn't even start a Primaris force based solely on the garbage character options and lack of datasheet options therein. I don't think the full impact will be felt for some time though.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: What if you bought it? Its a GW model. There has to be some use for it.
The Big Mek model isn't even all that old. Its like, 3 editions old.
Why? Things decay.
If I bought a 15 year old computer it wouldn't do me much good. If I bought a 15 year old cinema ticket it would be completely useless. A 15 year old set of trainers probably wouldn't get me very far.
I don't see why an item - which I may or may not have bought from GW or instead after 10 people traded it across ebay - should still be viable a generation after it was initially released. Nothing else on earth works this way.
*Glances at my NES Classic*. You might want to reword that, there’s even a few folks that collect the old, original hardware and such.
There’s nothing wrong with GW still giving support to their older models for those people who’d still like to use their collections. Likewise, the indexes support those people (like me) who are fine with a simpler level of the game and don’t want to buy into the dubious expanded content that a codex
Elbows wrote: I fully understand Tournaments banning Index units as games go on (less material for them to have on hand to check, etc.).
Regarding the no-model-no-rules thing...it's the worst decision GW has made, and will impact the game heavily as the years go on. Right now, everyone more or less has the benefit of older kits, and the datasheet reflects this. As kits are slowly weened off production, we'll see less and less, and it's a super gak decision in my opinion. I wouldn't even start a Primaris force based solely on the garbage character options and lack of datasheet options therein. I don't think the full impact will be felt for some time though.
Unless you play orks. In that case I hope you're ready to proxy your Big Mek as a Mekboy or that your opponent is ok with him wearing invisible mega armor.
Or proxying the Mega Warboss as a deffdred.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: What if you bought it? Its a GW model. There has to be some use for it.
The Big Mek model isn't even all that old. Its like, 3 editions old.
Why? Things decay.
If I bought a 15 year old computer it wouldn't do me much good. If I bought a 15 year old cinema ticket it would be completely useless. A 15 year old set of trainers probably wouldn't get me very far.
I don't see why an item - which I may or may not have bought from GW or instead after 10 people traded it across ebay - should still be viable a generation after it was initially released. Nothing else on earth works this way.
*Glances at my NES Classic*. You might want to reword that, there’s even a few folks that collect the old, original hardware and such.
There’s nothing wrong with GW still giving support to their older models for those people who’d still like to use their collections. Likewise, the indexes support those people (like me) who are fine with a simpler level of the game and don’t want to buy into the dubious expanded content that a codex
Comparing a model to electronics is kinda an uneven comparison. It say it's closer to a watch or a good set of tools. If you take care of it, it'll last you a life time.
Martel732 wrote: I don't think modern rules systems should have to support said models, however. In fact, they are dragging the rest of the game down.
In what way. As far as i'm aware none of the index options are game breaking or otherwise over powered. Not everyone plays the game to the nth level of competitive. Your essentially adovocating that GW squat 50 to 70 percent of it's models and rules going by your 200 comment to theoretically achieve balance. That would gore a large part of what makes this hobby, well a hobby. Painting, converting, kit bashing, etc would take a massive hit if GW purged most of it's lines.
Martel732 wrote: 40K's biggest strength is unreasonably loyal fan boys. The next biggest strength is having no real competition.
Their biggest Strength is the diversity and wide appeal of the sculpts. You have companies that have arguably better sculpts, but a less diverse range. Or the other way around. I'd argue none has both, and such range AND support from the company. PLUS the model part has still a huge role, because you can have "your" army in reasonable terms and still play the game with "count as". Problem is, after Chapterhouse (because come on, that was the tipping point) we end up more and more with a game like Warmachine somehow, option-wise.
Sculpts for sure. And, if you play with well adjusted people, there's the understanding that at the end of the day this is a casual game, and you can make all the right decisions, moves, choices, etc, and still lose. because dice.
Martel732 wrote: I don't think modern rules systems should have to support said models, however. In fact, they are dragging the rest of the game down.
In what way. As far as i'm aware none of the index options are game breaking or otherwise over powered. Not everyone plays the game to the nth level of competitive. Your essentially adovocating that GW squat 50 to 70 percent of it's models and rules going by your 200 comment to theoretically achieve balance. That would gore a large part of what makes this hobby, well a hobby. Painting, converting, kit bashing, etc would take a massive hit if GW purged most of it's lines.
That's why I limit my expectations to the indices. Marines need 75% of the models trashcanned until they get to a number GW can actually handle.
It is really not the number of units which is the problem. For example a big issue for marines is that their statline sucks and it will suck whether there are three or three hundred units using that statline.
Crimson wrote: It is really not the number of units which is the problem. For example a big issue for marines is that their statline sucks and it will suck whether there are three or three hundred units using that statline.
Yeah, that hurts, too. But so many superfluous and overlapping and frankly pointless units. It distracts from the core problems, imo.
Crimson wrote: It is really not the number of units which is the problem. For example a big issue for marines is that their statline sucks and it will suck whether there are three or three hundred units using that statline.
Yeah, that hurts, too. But so many superfluous and overlapping and frankly pointless units. It distracts from the core problems, imo.
Some of those units are not superfluous for people. The riders had their use in different editions, had FW sculpts or their equivalent (if you use Kriegs as normal guard), and appeal to collectors that looked for an army that winked at historicals. You are forcing everything into a very narrow point of view.
Martel732 wrote: Their inability to do math is the limiting factor.
I'm talking about marines, which has the most useless entries and kits.
Yes Marines are in a bad spot. Deleting options doesn't fix that, it just pisses off players and invalidates peoples existing collection. It also is harmful to the hobby as a whole, as it give you less to play around with for modeling.
Most of those entries you claim are useless are things many players still use. many game groups don't play WAAC and variety is a good thing.
I suspect that indexes units are on life support - probably little support/updates for them will be provided. I imagine they'll be axed by next edition (whenever that is), which is sad, because there's a lot of units that will get shelved.
Because it creates confusion and splits the core community and marketing. GW has to balance the line between those who have been playing since they were released and people who start playing tomorrow. Legacy rules tend to last for a while and let those with old collections keep using favoured models, plus (as highlighted in my earlier example) GW often releases something new that an old model can be used as a counts-as/proxy without any issue.
Index makes for a messy thing that can confuse some new people; whilst having all the models you need on the shelf and the codex makes it super easy to get into. Yes the Index was a great idea at the launch of 8th edition, but right now its not the best thing for the long term approach.
Like I said i fully expect the Index to go away and for GW to likely re-release some old ideas with new models and new ideas. So there is every chance that those old models will see see use on the tabletop. It's just part of the evolution of the game and its always been there; its just that we are at a turning point where GW isn't showing its hand on what is to come by having items in the codex that are not made by them right now. This is in result of them losing the Chapterhouse court case and being unable to shut down other manufacturers making similar models (which is a serious concern for GW which almost only they have to suffer with in the market*
*Although I've heard that some smaller studios are also suffering from the even worse situation of recasters copy-catting their work. Esp those who are making larger, more expensive, models
If you include books like Index: Forces of Chaos I don't think they'll go away any time soon. They include many options that are not simple 'legacy' choices, including the Daemon Lords and the entire Renegade and Heretics list and others that have never appeared in a codex.
So while I appreciate that it's just super, super onerous for one or two of you to have to check a page in another book every once in a while, without the Indexes some of us have entirely invalid armies or $300 blocks of entirely useless resin.
I think GW was very smart to leave it open for the player to decide. The Designers Note chart for using Index-only options leaves the door open. Having those options use Codex points if available if possible is also very smart as it provided some measure to be able to update options.
Eventually the community will have far, far more players that stick to their Codex and may not even be aware of "indexes", but by that point, 40K will likely be on 9th or 10th edition when everything will have changed for everyone, so it won't matter.
If YOU don't want to use the Index....don't. But assuming other players should not is like assuming everyone play from a single codex and not use allies. It ain't gonna happen. If the issue is that there are just too many rules....I agree, but it's better than having too few.
I long ago gave up on my quest to know every rule in every Codex in 40K. There are just too many Codices and with how quickly they have been released lately, it's difficult to know keep up. Removing all Index options would hardly make a dent in plethora of existing rules, so why bother? At best, GW will stop producing them (already started this) and just quietly ignore the Indexes exist, but they will leave the Designers Note available for players who have them. At that point, as now, it will be up to the players and TOs to enforce "Codex Only" stuff. But unless an option starts dominating the Tourney scene, I don't see this happening either
Tease lol, now I'm curious. Over all though there really isn't a legit reason to do a mass purge of older models. Just because older players have stuff that newer players may not due to time is kinda baked in miniature war gaming.
Tease lol, now I'm curious. Over all though there really isn't a legit reason to do a mass purge of older models. Just because older players have stuff that newer players may not due to time is kinda baked in miniature war gaming.
That said, how do I field my Squats?
And let's not start on Sigmar, where a huge number of old kits have no obvious analogue.
Basically, there's no rule at GW saying an old, no longer available unit has to stay in the game forever. It's kind of weird that so many 40k ones still are usable really...
GW learned at least a partial leason from Sigmar, which was a dumpster fire when it first came out and took a while to pick up again after a lot of tweaking. It's why I believe even if older models do get squatted at some point we are looking at them not doing it for about a decade or so. They don't need the back PR after working pretty hard to win back the community.
HoundsofDemos wrote: GW learned at least a partial leason from Sigmar, which was a dumpster fire when it first came out and took a while to pick up again after a lot of tweaking. It's why I believe even if older models do get squatted at some point we are looking at them not doing it for about a decade or so. They don't need the back PR after working pretty hard to win back the community.
I can agree with that.
But that's why biker librarians and their ilk are likely on the chopping block. They're old enough that not enough people would care.
The above is a good example of why there stance is kinda silly and arbitrary. GW produces librarian models and produces bikes. Do they sell that in one kit, no I need to buy at least two to make a convincing one. But that makes GW money and keeping rules for it doesn't cost anything. I can get shuttering things they outright have no current model for but something like the above is just dumb.
HoundsofDemos wrote: The above is a good example of why there stance is kinda silly and arbitrary. GW produces librarian models and produces bikes. Do they sell that in one kit, no I need to buy at least two to make a convincing one. But that makes GW money and keeping rules for it doesn't cost anything. I can get shuttering things they outright have no current model for but something like the above is just dumb.
Hmm. That makes sense to a point.
Bloat is a real issue though. Maybe not to those of us that spend all our time on forums for the game, but for the more casual player.
Tyel wrote: I'd expect 9th edition to say something like "index units cannot be used in matched play, if you want them in open/narrative go nuts" and be done with it.
As I get older I lose sympathy for this approach of "I built this model in 2005 and I should be able to use it!!!" This doesn't apply to almost any other activity you would approach in life.
What if you bought it? Its a GW model. There has to be some use for it.
The Big Mek model isn't even all that old. Its like, 3 editions old.
Yes but eventually it has to go away.
Heck consider that each YEAR Magic the Gathering basically invalidates most of the cards you bought last year (and all of them from previous years) if you want to keep up to the current standard edition (without going for their unlimited which is mostly full of very specific choice overpowered cards from various editions). And most people seem to love MTG.
Warhammer you will see things become invalid, its happened for years. It's one reason Tyranid players are big on using magnets because many have had specifi weapon combos go invalid or vanish over the years.
Plus many things go away but come back again later, either directly or indirectly. The "Doom" Zoanthrope for Tyranids is gone, but many now use their Doom as a Neurothrope.
ok if your going to use the mtg term, you have a format called "modern" that you should be well aware of.( for you who dont play mtg; modern allows you to use any card produced from 2008 until today whit the exeptions of some clearly op cards, and there are official competitions/turnys in modern, as it is fully supported(heck you even have legacy for the early genmtg cards))
that is proper game support!
for the whole debacle about fantasy, it was a dead and overcomplicated game that dident have a chanse in 2015 when you saw more and more new games whit mutch simpler rules set gaining more popularity. if your going to completely kill a game like they did to fantasy, there is no reason to keep its models.
40k 8th edition was was not an elimination of a game, it was a simplification of a very unessesary complex game system, and in that prosess apparently something had to go.
and since this prossess is ongoing and still fresh and moust likely will still be ongoing in 9th, i expect index units/selections to be fully supported in matched play for atleast another edition.
(heck, some of us builds themed armys, but still want to play fully structured)
HoundsofDemos wrote: The above is a good example of why there stance is kinda silly and arbitrary. GW produces librarian models and produces bikes. Do they sell that in one kit, no I need to buy at least two to make a convincing one. But that makes GW money and keeping rules for it doesn't cost anything. I can get shuttering things they outright have no current model for but something like the above is just dumb.
Hmm. That makes sense to a point.
Bloat is a real issue though. Maybe not to those of us that spend all our time on forums for the game, but for the more casual player.
Does this all go back to chapter house though and GW learning that to win they had to be able to point to any given entry and say here is the model we make for that entry.
Someone already posted a link to a screen grab of the notice of index xeno going out of print
Because without them every single one of my razorbacks (las/plas turrets) can't be used as such.
Because without them I've got a lot of useless horse mounted IG.
And I'm sure there's more models in my collection that only appear in the indices.
Yeah, I want to keep playing with my existing toys.
Because I support having more options in the game. Always have, always will. For myself, for you, for people who already have stuff, for new/newer players.
The indices don't have to exist as dead tree books. They could be offered as reasonably priced PDFs.
The discontinued models? It's almost 2019. 3d printing is a thing. They could simply sell you a file good for printing x # of copies. Or process your bitz order through Shapeways or some other 3d printing company.
HoundsofDemos wrote: The above is a good example of why there stance is kinda silly and arbitrary. GW produces librarian models and produces bikes. Do they sell that in one kit, no I need to buy at least two to make a convincing one. But that makes GW money and keeping rules for it doesn't cost anything. I can get shuttering things they outright have no current model for but something like the above is just dumb.
The thing is not everyone converts their models. Some don't want to, some don't know how, others don't even know you can do it.
The point is that current GW wants to have a game whereby everything in the codex can be bought direct from GW. No converting, no sourcing parts on ebay, no scrounging around for3rd party bits etc... This makes it fair for all gamers as they are all on the same potential playing field.
Furthermore for GW it means that people are not rebuying kits on ebay and are instead more likely to be buying the new kits. Remember most people don't buy an expensive Librarian just to chop half of it up and attach to another expensive bike. Sure some fans do it and many do it when they build up a collection of spare bits etc...
It makes sense for GW and it makes sense for new gamers. GW is focusing big time on newblood. They realise that old-guard are great, but old fans get lost to time, life and general stuff. So GW needs to ensure that new kids are joining into the game and getting on board. An experienced gamer has no problem being aware of several generations of the game*; nor of referencing several books etc... New gamers very easily get put off and not its not "these young kids today". Back in the day we still had that 1 codex for each army and maybe one or two things in white dwarf as optional stuff.
GW has to tackle its past at some point otherwise keeping every legacy model around would bloat the game on things that are not there any more. Plus nothing stops GW making a new librarian on a bike in 2 years time
*I was reading the Infinity 1 reprint (of the original series) and it describes generation 1 Screamer Killers and Hormagaunts with long heads. Two things new gamers would get confused at as neither is like what they look like today.
HoundsofDemos wrote: The above is a good example of why there stance is kinda silly and arbitrary. GW produces librarian models and produces bikes. Do they sell that in one kit, no I need to buy at least two to make a convincing one. But that makes GW money and keeping rules for it doesn't cost anything. I can get shuttering things they outright have no current model for but something like the above is just dumb.
The thing is not everyone converts their models. Some don't want to, some don't know how, others don't even know you can do it.
The point is that current GW wants to have a game whereby everything in the codex can be bought direct from GW. No converting, no sourcing parts on ebay, no scrounging around for3rd party bits etc... This makes it fair for all gamers as they are all on the same potential playing field.
Furthermore for GW it means that people are not rebuying kits on ebay and are instead more likely to be buying the new kits. Remember most people don't buy an expensive Librarian just to chop half of it up and attach to another expensive bike. Sure some fans do it and many do it when they build up a collection of spare bits etc...
It makes sense for GW and it makes sense for new gamers. GW is focusing big time on newblood. They realise that old-guard are great, but old fans get lost to time, life and general stuff. So GW needs to ensure that new kids are joining into the game and getting on board. An experienced gamer has no problem being aware of several generations of the game*; nor of referencing several books etc... New gamers very easily get put off and not its not "these young kids today". Back in the day we still had that 1 codex for each army and maybe one or two things in white dwarf as optional stuff.
GW has to tackle its past at some point otherwise keeping every legacy model around would bloat the game on things that are not there any more. Plus nothing stops GW making a new librarian on a bike in 2 years time
*I was reading the Infinity 1 reprint (of the original series) and it describes generation 1 Screamer Killers and Hormagaunts with long heads. Two things new gamers would get confused at as neither is like what they look like today.
Many armies have to rely on conversions and bits, though. Few units come with all the weapon options and combinations they can take. Some units, like Space Marine Captains, barely have anything in terms of official kit options. There’s not even a Wolf Priest model beyond a named character. The entire Tau range includes a single Cyclic Ion Blaster, in the Commander kit, but a Commander can take four of them and a minimum Crisis team can take 9.
I agree that Primaris and Easy Build are an attempt to simplify the building process by removing most unit options, and that’s fine. But GW has always pushed people to convert and hopefully buy more kits while doing so.
HoundsofDemos wrote: The above is a good example of why there stance is kinda silly and arbitrary. GW produces librarian models and produces bikes. Do they sell that in one kit, no I need to buy at least two to make a convincing one. But that makes GW money and keeping rules for it doesn't cost anything. I can get shuttering things they outright have no current model for but something like the above is just dumb.
Well, it's actually much dumber than even that.
GW sell all the parts to make a Herald of Slaanesh on a Seeker Chariot and on an Exalted Seeker Chariot in one box, but they still killed the rules for them.
So if I don't have an Index I can only field six Seeker Chariots, or with an Index I can field twelve and spend literally twice as much at GW.
meleti wrote: But GW has always pushed people to convert and hopefully buy more kits while doing so.
But that is decreasing, and those conversion options are likely to disappear. GW's goal is that every kit (including terrain and things that would normally just be decorative) can be built straight out of the box and have rules, and every rule has a matching kit you can buy. Conversions are intimidating for the new players GW wants to recruit. They might produce multi-kit purchases by more experienced players, but GW doesn't get to the point of having experienced players if the newbies are scared off by a game where buying a viable configuration for a unit means buying multiple kits and/or going to third-party bits sellers. In short, GW wants a theme park and not a sandbox.
meleti wrote: But GW has always pushed people to convert and hopefully buy more kits while doing so.
But that is decreasing, and those conversion options are likely to disappear. GW's goal is that every kit (including terrain and things that would normally just be decorative) can be built straight out of the box and have rules, and every rule has a matching kit you can buy. Conversions are intimidating for the new players GW wants to recruit. They might produce multi-kit purchases by more experienced players, but GW doesn't get to the point of having experienced players if the newbies are scared off by a game where buying a viable configuration for a unit means buying multiple kits and/or going to third-party bits sellers. In short, GW wants a theme park and not a sandbox.
So why don't Plague Marines (a fairly new kit) come with all their weapon options then? They've mostly got one of each option but can take two.
HoundsofDemos wrote: The above is a good example of why there stance is kinda silly and arbitrary. GW produces librarian models and produces bikes. Do they sell that in one kit, no I need to buy at least two to make a convincing one. But that makes GW money and keeping rules for it doesn't cost anything. I can get shuttering things they outright have no current model for but something like the above is just dumb.
The thing is not everyone converts their models. Some don't want to, some don't know how, others don't even know you can do it.
The point is that current GW wants to have a game whereby everything in the codex can be bought direct from GW. No converting, no sourcing parts on ebay, no scrounging around for3rd party bits etc... This makes it fair for all gamers as they are all on the same potential playing field.
Furthermore for GW it means that people are not rebuying kits on ebay and are instead more likely to be buying the new kits. Remember most people don't buy an expensive Librarian just to chop half of it up and attach to another expensive bike. Sure some fans do it and many do it when they build up a collection of spare bits etc...
It makes sense for GW and it makes sense for new gamers. GW is focusing big time on newblood. They realise that old-guard are great, but old fans get lost to time, life and general stuff. So GW needs to ensure that new kids are joining into the game and getting on board. An experienced gamer has no problem being aware of several generations of the game*; nor of referencing several books etc... New gamers very easily get put off and not its not "these young kids today". Back in the day we still had that 1 codex for each army and maybe one or two things in white dwarf as optional stuff.
GW has to tackle its past at some point otherwise keeping every legacy model around would bloat the game on things that are not there any more. Plus nothing stops GW making a new librarian on a bike in 2 years time
*I was reading the Infinity 1 reprint (of the original series) and it describes generation 1 Screamer Killers and Hormagaunts with long heads. Two things new gamers would get confused at as neither is like what they look like today.
Which makes sense because the only non-single kit I know of that made into codex are talonmasters and characters with jump packs because GW sells jump packs and ravenwing upgrade sprue seperately.
HoundsofDemos wrote: The above is a good example of why there stance is kinda silly and arbitrary. GW produces librarian models and produces bikes. Do they sell that in one kit, no I need to buy at least two to make a convincing one. But that makes GW money and keeping rules for it doesn't cost anything. I can get shuttering things they outright have no current model for but something like the above is just dumb.
The thing is not everyone converts their models. Some don't want to, some don't know how, others don't even know you can do it.
The point is that current GW wants to have a game whereby everything in the codex can be bought direct from GW. No converting, no sourcing parts on ebay, no scrounging around for3rd party bits etc... This makes it fair for all gamers as they are all on the same potential playing field.
Furthermore for GW it means that people are not rebuying kits on ebay and are instead more likely to be buying the new kits. Remember most people don't buy an expensive Librarian just to chop half of it up and attach to another expensive bike. Sure some fans do it and many do it when they build up a collection of spare bits etc...
It makes sense for GW and it makes sense for new gamers. GW is focusing big time on newblood. They realise that old-guard are great, but old fans get lost to time, life and general stuff. So GW needs to ensure that new kids are joining into the game and getting on board. An experienced gamer has no problem being aware of several generations of the game*; nor of referencing several books etc... New gamers very easily get put off and not its not "these young kids today". Back in the day we still had that 1 codex for each army and maybe one or two things in white dwarf as optional stuff.
GW has to tackle its past at some point otherwise keeping every legacy model around would bloat the game on things that are not there any more. Plus nothing stops GW making a new librarian on a bike in 2 years time
*I was reading the Infinity 1 reprint (of the original series) and it describes generation 1 Screamer Killers and Hormagaunts with long heads. Two things new gamers would get confused at as neither is like what they look like today.
Many armies have to rely on conversions and bits, though. Few units come with all the weapon options and combinations they can take. Some units, like Space Marine Captains, barely have anything in terms of official kit options. There’s not even a Wolf Priest model beyond a named character. The entire Tau range includes a single Cyclic Ion Blaster, in the Commander kit, but a Commander can take four of them and a minimum Crisis team can take 9.
I agree that Primaris and Easy Build are an attempt to simplify the building process by removing most unit options, and that’s fine. But GW has always pushed people to convert and hopefully buy more kits while doing so.
The really strange part is that the Biker Captain STILL has a kit (albeit only as White Scars) and he's still only Index option.
I wouldnt be surprised if Indexes continue, but as Open Play type suggestions. How else are we supposed to buy more books once the Codexes are all completed?
HoundsofDemos wrote: The above is a good example of why there stance is kinda silly and arbitrary. GW produces librarian models and produces bikes. Do they sell that in one kit, no I need to buy at least two to make a convincing one. But that makes GW money and keeping rules for it doesn't cost anything. I can get shuttering things they outright have no current model for but something like the above is just dumb.
The thing is not everyone converts their models. Some don't want to, some don't know how, others don't even know you can do it.
The point is that current GW wants to have a game whereby everything in the codex can be bought direct from GW. No converting, no sourcing parts on ebay, no scrounging around for3rd party bits etc... This makes it fair for all gamers as they are all on the same potential playing field.
Furthermore for GW it means that people are not rebuying kits on ebay and are instead more likely to be buying the new kits. Remember most people don't buy an expensive Librarian just to chop half of it up and attach to another expensive bike. Sure some fans do it and many do it when they build up a collection of spare bits etc...
It makes sense for GW and it makes sense for new gamers. GW is focusing big time on newblood. They realise that old-guard are great, but old fans get lost to time, life and general stuff. So GW needs to ensure that new kids are joining into the game and getting on board. An experienced gamer has no problem being aware of several generations of the game*; nor of referencing several books etc... New gamers very easily get put off and not its not "these young kids today". Back in the day we still had that 1 codex for each army and maybe one or two things in white dwarf as optional stuff.
GW has to tackle its past at some point otherwise keeping every legacy model around would bloat the game on things that are not there any more. Plus nothing stops GW making a new librarian on a bike in 2 years time
*I was reading the Infinity 1 reprint (of the original series) and it describes generation 1 Screamer Killers and Hormagaunts with long heads. Two things new gamers would get confused at as neither is like what they look like today.
Many armies have to rely on conversions and bits, though. Few units come with all the weapon options and combinations they can take. Some units, like Space Marine Captains, barely have anything in terms of official kit options. There’s not even a Wolf Priest model beyond a named character. The entire Tau range includes a single Cyclic Ion Blaster, in the Commander kit, but a Commander can take four of them and a minimum Crisis team can take 9.
I agree that Primaris and Easy Build are an attempt to simplify the building process by removing most unit options, and that’s fine. But GW has always pushed people to convert and hopefully buy more kits while doing so.
The really strange part is that the Biker Captain STILL has a kit (albeit only as White Scars) and he's still only Index option.
Because without them every single one of my razorbacks (las/plas turrets) can't be used as such. Because without them I've got a lot of useless horse mounted IG. And I'm sure there's more models in my collection that only appear in the indices. Yeah, I want to keep playing with my existing toys.
Because I support having more options in the game. Always have, always will. For myself, for you, for people who already have stuff, for new/newer players.
The indices don't have to exist as dead tree books. They could be offered as reasonably priced PDFs. The discontinued models? It's almost 2019. 3d printing is a thing. They could simply sell you a file good for printing x # of copies. Or process your bitz order through Shapeways or some other 3d printing company.
I second this. Without the Index options, my Autarch has very few options. It was always the point of an Autarch to have a customizable general. But since GW cannot be arsed to release a multi-part plastic kit with options, they decided to just remove them. But the options are still there on other kits, namely Aspect warriors. It makes no sense to just remove the options wholesale.
But I think GW hit the right compromise by releasing the Codices with only the options provided in the kits (mostly for new players) and leaving the Index options available not only for veteran players who already have them modeled, but for new players who have gotten a bit deeper in the hobby. It's a win-win for GW and the players. I'm sorry if my Autarch with Banshee Mask and Reaper Launcher offends any one, but without those options, he'd be another Farseer instead.
Nightlord1987 wrote: I wouldnt be surprised if Indexes continue, but as Open Play type suggestions. How else are we supposed to buy more books once the Codexes are all completed?
HoundsofDemos wrote: The above is a good example of why there stance is kinda silly and arbitrary. GW produces librarian models and produces bikes. Do they sell that in one kit, no I need to buy at least two to make a convincing one. But that makes GW money and keeping rules for it doesn't cost anything. I can get shuttering things they outright have no current model for but something like the above is just dumb.
The thing is not everyone converts their models. Some don't want to, some don't know how, others don't even know you can do it.
The point is that current GW wants to have a game whereby everything in the codex can be bought direct from GW. No converting, no sourcing parts on ebay, no scrounging around for3rd party bits etc... This makes it fair for all gamers as they are all on the same potential playing field.
Furthermore for GW it means that people are not rebuying kits on ebay and are instead more likely to be buying the new kits. Remember most people don't buy an expensive Librarian just to chop half of it up and attach to another expensive bike. Sure some fans do it and many do it when they build up a collection of spare bits etc...
It makes sense for GW and it makes sense for new gamers. GW is focusing big time on newblood. They realise that old-guard are great, but old fans get lost to time, life and general stuff. So GW needs to ensure that new kids are joining into the game and getting on board. An experienced gamer has no problem being aware of several generations of the game*; nor of referencing several books etc... New gamers very easily get put off and not its not "these young kids today". Back in the day we still had that 1 codex for each army and maybe one or two things in white dwarf as optional stuff.
GW has to tackle its past at some point otherwise keeping every legacy model around would bloat the game on things that are not there any more. Plus nothing stops GW making a new librarian on a bike in 2 years time
*I was reading the Infinity 1 reprint (of the original series) and it describes generation 1 Screamer Killers and Hormagaunts with long heads. Two things new gamers would get confused at as neither is like what they look like today.
Many armies have to rely on conversions and bits, though. Few units come with all the weapon options and combinations they can take. Some units, like Space Marine Captains, barely have anything in terms of official kit options. There’s not even a Wolf Priest model beyond a named character. The entire Tau range includes a single Cyclic Ion Blaster, in the Commander kit, but a Commander can take four of them and a minimum Crisis team can take 9.
I agree that Primaris and Easy Build are an attempt to simplify the building process by removing most unit options, and that’s fine. But GW has always pushed people to convert and hopefully buy more kits while doing so.
The really strange part is that the Biker Captain STILL has a kit (albeit only as White Scars) and he's still only Index option.
Captain on bike entry is page 141 of the Codex.
I was just looking at the codex like a few hours ago. Are you sure?
Yep. Im looking at it right now. Pg 140 is Captain Cataphractii, and regular captain, 141 is Captain on bike, right above the Primaris Captain entry. Starting points 98. No other Bike character entries though.
I'm surprised as well. I just sold off all my Bikes and bike Characters a few weeks ago. Might have held onto one or two had I even noticed.
I also like that a normal captain can take a bike in the codex but Khan can only take a bike in the index. The White Scar special character potentially loses the ability to take a bike. The choices they choose to cut lead to some silly outcomes.
The Bike Captain equivalent isn't present in the Space Wolves codex (Wolf Lord on Bike). Regardless, it's a datasheel without a miniature unless you want to argue that White Scar is intended for generic Chapter use.
The indices don't have to exist as dead tree books. They could be offered as reasonably priced PDFs.
If they weren't going to be included in the rulebook, they always should have been offered as PDFs.
Galef wrote: But I think GW hit the right compromise by releasing the Codices with only the options provided in the kits (mostly for new players) and leaving the Index options available not only for veteran players who already have them modeled, but for new players who have gotten a bit deeper in the hobby.
Wouldn't a better compromise have been to just, you know, keep selling those models...?
Removing options from the game always sucks. Removing options when you still have the capability to produce those options, but are removing them for no reason other than that someone thought it would be a good idea to just drop everything that wasn't plastic rather than carrying out a structured replacement, is just rude.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: What if you bought it? Its a GW model. There has to be some use for it.
The Big Mek model isn't even all that old. Its like, 3 editions old.
Why? Things decay.
If I bought a 15 year old computer it wouldn't do me much good. If I bought a 15 year old cinema ticket it would be completely useless. A 15 year old set of trainers probably wouldn't get me very far.
I don't see why an item - which I may or may not have bought from GW or instead after 10 people traded it across ebay - should still be viable a generation after it was initially released. Nothing else on earth works this way.
My 15 year old house must not be worth much use either. Or a 15 year old car, regularly maintained. My Mom get's regular use out of a 15 year old TV. Sorry, most stuff isn't bought to become obsolete or consumed.
Tyel wrote: I'd expect 9th edition to say something like "index units cannot be used in matched play, if you want them in open/narrative go nuts" and be done with it.
As I get older I lose sympathy for this approach of "I built this model in 2005 and I should be able to use it!!!" This doesn't apply to almost any other activity you would approach in life.
What if you bought it? Its a GW model. There has to be some use for it.
The Big Mek model isn't even all that old. Its like, 3 editions old.
Yes but eventually it has to go away.
Heck consider that each YEAR Magic the Gathering basically invalidates most of the cards you bought last year (and all of them from previous years) if you want to keep up to the current standard edition (without going for their unlimited which is mostly full of very specific choice overpowered cards from various editions). And most people seem to love MTG.
Warhammer you will see things become invalid, its happened for years. It's one reason Tyranid players are big on using magnets because many have had specifi weapon combos go invalid or vanish over the years.
Plus many things go away but come back again later, either directly or indirectly. The "Doom" Zoanthrope for Tyranids is gone, but many now use their Doom as a Neurothrope.
One of the selling points for Warhammer over magic is that it didn't do that.
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Martel732 wrote: In fact, they are dragging the rest of the game down.
That is not a fact. That's an opinion. My opinion is that it's the opposite.
HoundsofDemos wrote: The above is a good example of why there stance is kinda silly and arbitrary. GW produces librarian models and produces bikes. Do they sell that in one kit, no I need to buy at least two to make a convincing one. But that makes GW money and keeping rules for it doesn't cost anything. I can get shuttering things they outright have no current model for but something like the above is just dumb.
Hmm. That makes sense to a point.
Bloat is a real issue though. Maybe not to those of us that spend all our time on forums for the game, but for the more casual player.
That's not even that big a deal. Just include a line under librarian that says "Space Marine Bike: +1PL Model gains +1T, +1W and movement become 12"" Include any appropriate keyword changes, and good to go.
I don't see why an item - which I may or may not have bought from GW or instead after 10 people traded it across ebay - should still be viable a generation after it was initially released. Nothing else on earth works this way.
It's true. When I put my 15-year old DVDs into the DVD player now, I get a message saying 'Sorry, you can't watch this one anymore, just because.'
I don't see why an item - which I may or may not have bought from GW or instead after 10 people traded it across ebay - should still be viable a generation after it was initially released. Nothing else on earth works this way.
It's true. When I put my 15-year old DVDs into the DVD player now, I get a message saying 'Sorry, you can't watch this one anymore, just because.'
What, you sold the VCR? (I still have my Star Wars VHS tapes, but no VCR, oddly enough).
Anyway, doesn't Age of Sigmar have a site where they are posting PDFs of old hero units? If they are going to drop models from 40K, it would be nice if they had a repository of one-page PDFs for those old 40K units with their last datasheet somewhere where they can be accessed for the casual/open play crowd.
(Actually, I wish they did datasheets for the 40K units like they do for the AoS units, where you could just download them off the model's page)
I don't see why an item - which I may or may not have bought from GW or instead after 10 people traded it across ebay - should still be viable a generation after it was initially released. Nothing else on earth works this way.
It's true. When I put my 15-year old DVDs into the DVD player now, I get a message saying 'Sorry, you can't watch this one anymore, just because.'
What, you sold the VCR? (I still have my Star Wars VHS tapes, but no VCR, oddly enough).
Anyway, doesn't Age of Sigmar have a site where they are posting PDFs of old hero units? If they are going to drop models from 40K, it would be nice if they had a repository of one-page PDFs for those old 40K units with their last datasheet somewhere where they can be accessed for the casual/open play crowd.
(Actually, I wish they did datasheets for the 40K units like they do for the AoS units, where you could just download them off the model's page)
Yes they do, it's on the app. They have downloads for all the legacy armies and Forge World books with updated points for older units not carried over and substitute war scrolls for anything that has carried over to AoS. So you can just use those as an equivalent in the older army types.
Galef wrote: But I think GW hit the right compromise by releasing the Codices with only the options provided in the kits (mostly for new players) and leaving the Index options available not only for veteran players who already have them modeled, but for new players who have gotten a bit deeper in the hobby.
Wouldn't a better compromise have been to just, you know, keep selling those models...?
Removing options from the game always sucks. Removing options when you still have the capability to produce those options, but are removing them for no reason other than that someone thought it would be a good idea to just drop everything that wasn't plastic rather than carrying out a structured replacement, is just rude.
Oh, for sure keeping the models in stock would be ideal, but I was under the impression that most (not all) of the options removed were options GW either never made or haven't for years.
I don't ever remember GW releasing a Librarian on a bike, or Twin-Autocannons for a Dread (FW doesn't count) or many of the Autarch options (certain cobmos had models up til recently, but never a specific kit with all the options).
So I though GW was just removing options to thing they no longer or have never produced, but had the rules options for in prior editions that players just converted.
So by removing them in the Codex, it doesn't confuse new players, but by leaving the option available via Index, older players can still take their models as they converted them.
I can only see good intentions in this.
Most entries removed have been kits that never had specific models to begin with. There are of course few exception and those exceptions are usually old metal/resin models.
My age as a hobbyist is probably showing but it makes me laugh that the idea of a unit entry or an option not having a specific one click buy model as confusing to a new player. When I started playing so many options and units didn't have an official model, or you would have to kit bash to get the load out you wanted.
That led to interesting models as people put their own spin on things. Increasingly I've seen that die out when I've ventured to local stores and newer players are playing identical models against identical models. So much flavor is being lost as GW doubles down after chapter house.
HoundsofDemos wrote: My age as a hobbyist is probably showing but it makes me laugh that the idea of a unit entry or an option not having a specific one click buy model as confusing to a new player. When I started playing so many options and units didn't have an official model, or you would have to kit bash to get the load out you wanted.
That led to interesting models as people put their own spin on things. Increasingly I've seen that die out when I've ventured to local stores and newer players are playing identical models against identical models. So much flavor is being lost as GW doubles down after chapter house.
Yeah, it is really sad. Conversions are the heart and soul of this hobby.
I personally hope they keep them legal if for no other reason than having long-standing formerly legal options from multiple editions (and their corresponding models) be able to still be used.
Case-in-point, a jump pack equipped Sanguinary High Priest and Sanguinary Novitiate, as well as a jump pack equipped Company Champion. I have these models, and I want to keep using them, especially considering I used assault marine jump pack belt torsos in their construction several years ago.
Just my opinion on it. I hope they remain legal for folks. Just my .02 pennies.
In Europe, Index units are already banned from ETC, and therefore effectively banned from most competitive events.
Look to AoS to see how GW handles legacy units - a pdf of datasheets for open play only.
And this to me has the sinister undertone to GW getting back into organized play. It realizes if it can encourage the above behavior it can make more money by making current models illegal and force players to buy new ones.
And this to me has the sinister undertone to GW getting back into organized play. It realizes if it can encourage the above behavior it can make more money by making current models illegal and force players to buy new ones.
What current models? I have a chaplain on a bike but he is far from current. Also, organized play requires parity between players. If one player can use a rare unit they bought 20 years ago and nobody else can unless they resort to recasters you are creating a very unbalanced battlefield(and enabling recasters) in the competitive circle.
To be fair they could do this in a much smarter way which would cause less backlash. Simply out price the unavailable models in Chapter Approved. Make Trueborns cost double. Make that Librarian on bike cost double and pay more for his upgrades. It would discourage their use in competitive circles but not really remove them. Basically what they've already done with Forgeworld.
And this to me has the sinister undertone to GW getting back into organized play. It realizes if it can encourage the above behavior it can make more money by making current models illegal and force players to buy new ones.
What current models? I have a chaplain on a bike but he is far from current. Also, organized play requires parity between players. If one player can use a rare unit they bought 20 years ago and nobody else can unless they resort to recasters you are creating a very unbalanced battlefield(and enabling recasters) in the competitive circle.
To be fair they could do this in a much smarter way which would cause less backlash. Simply out price the unavailable models in Chapter Approved. Make Trueborns cost double. Make that Librarian on bike cost double and pay more for his upgrades. It would discourage their use in competitive circles but not really remove them. Basically what they've already done with Forgeworld.
Which again gets back to the real reason their doing this, they don't make money from people who have old models. And again, it's a hobby you want a chaplain on a bike there is nothing stopping a new player from making one. GW sells all the needed parts. Pretty much everything in the Indexes that don't have an "Official Model" can be made with a bit of kit bashing and a little conversion work. A lot of units didn't have models back in the day but still had rules. Which meant players figured it out. Acting like new players can't do so is patronizing.
I think people are loosing there gak over nothing. Yeah index entries will eventually go away however GW likes to add new units from campaigns. I could see units like KFF mekboyz and ruff riders make legal comebacks in this form. We gotta givem more time...
The indices don't have to exist as dead tree books. They could be offered as reasonably priced PDFs.
If they weren't going to be included in the rulebook, they always should have been offered as PDFs.
Galef wrote: But I think GW hit the right compromise by releasing the Codices with only the options provided in the kits (mostly for new players) and leaving the Index options available not only for veteran players who already have them modeled, but for new players who have gotten a bit deeper in the hobby.
Wouldn't a better compromise have been to just, you know, keep selling those models...?
Removing options from the game always sucks. Removing options when you still have the capability to produce those options, but are removing them for no reason other than that someone thought it would be a good idea to just drop everything that wasn't plastic rather than carrying out a structured replacement, is just rude.
That's an excellent point, and if their logic is removing everything that isn't plastic, I guess all of the Eldar aspects should be killed off, along with half of the non Space Marine HQ units in the entire GW model range. There's still an absurd amount of models in failcast.
And that's precisely why I think Eldar are going to be Primaris-ized. I suspect instead of proper Eldar in plastic we'll end up with Ynnari nonsense as new types of units in plastic and Aspects will fade.
I'd like to think they're not dumb enough to do that - but I wouldn't put it beyond GW. They did just do a plastic Spiritseer which is hopeful.
Which again gets back to the real reason their doing this, they don't make money from people who have old models. And again, it's a hobby you want a chaplain on a bike there is nothing stopping a new player from making one. GW sells all the needed parts. Pretty much everything in the Indexes that don't have an "Official Model" can be made with a bit of kit bashing and a little conversion work. A lot of units didn't have models back in the day but still had rules. Which meant players figured it out. Acting like new players can't do so is patronizing.
It is a different landscape and third party manufacturers ruined kitbashing of non-existent units because even though new players can kitbash stuff many do not want to and would rather buy some recast or third party model. GW quickly made sure Razorwing Flocks became expensive pointwise when people were "flocking"(pun intended) to buy the Zombicide models. Hell, I've been tempted by some amazing third party models of non-existing kits because some of the artists making them are quite frankly very good at their job. Saw a third party Baron Sathonyx that was bloody gorgeous and no amount of kitbashing could have come close to it.
I've gone through great cullings over the years and to be honest I am so jaded to people being angry at entries being removed because I've already gone through this with the Dark Eldar codex back in 7th. Hell, I even own the original Dais of Destruction model(sans the slaves though) and I can't even use it and that's just something I just live with. I can, however, urge them to remake the kit or ask them to give us a new Asdrubael Vect. I can also enjoy the old model even though I can't play it anymore(except maybe as a stand-in for something else).
Maybe I am just jaded because I already own armies in 40k and Fantasy that have already gone through a culling and know that no one did anything then and won't do anything now.
Maybe I am just getting too old for this life. Old, jaded, and staring out the window wondering where all this time has gone over the years. So many years wasted here and there. So many things lost because I didn't seize the day; carpe diem and all that. Seen my childhood heroes die, and others break their image beyond all repair. Spent too much energy being angry and disappointed when many other interesting things lay around the next corner.
Perhaps people are right. This is the darkest timeline.
Personally, I don’t see some nefarious scheme for GW to invalidate people’s collections.
While it’s not the best example, Apple doesn’t make Apple IIe’s anymore. That doesn’t stop me from being able to use one if I had it, or from people making emulators for it. There may be enthusiasts who love the old hardware/software (I do), but the technology has long been abandoned and it isn’t in Apple’s interest to actively support it. As long as Apple doesn’t take actions to shut down the existing community or block people from being able to buy/trade/fix/emulate/develop for the old hardware, things are fine. If Apple were to step in and somehow actively make it difficult or impossible to get an Apple IIe or an emulation of it, then they’re being a spiteful, sucky company.
IMO, same holds for GW. If the old molds wear out, aren’t profitable or get redesigned, I have no issue with GW dropping future references to the model, and letting players use the old data sheets for casual play. It’s when they derp rename things or, heaven forbid, went out of their way to ban an existing, in-production model that they become the spiteful, sucky company.
I bought my damned forgeworld dread auto cannon arms at the beginning of 8th based on the index. To have them removed as a valid armament within the same edition is just not fair and would leave me feeling bitter (thank god I'm not on the other side of the pond with the crazy ETC and their forgeworld hang-ups).
I played fantasy but quit before they blew the whole thing up but I still have a fair collection of savage orc boar boyz, Trolls, snotling wagons, the night goblins that launched themselves and the crazy ones with the giant metal balls, wood elf waywatchers, glade riders and some seriously old chaos demons, hounds and the terrible mono-pose chaos warriors so it wouldn't be the first time my hobby dollars turned into nothing because of the whims of GW but it would be the quickest it has happened...
bananathug wrote: I bought my damned forgeworld dread auto cannon arms at the beginning of 8th based on the index. To have them removed as a valid armament within the same edition is just not fair and would leave me feeling bitter (thank god I'm not on the other side of the pond with the crazy ETC and their forgeworld hang-ups).
meleti wrote: But GW has always pushed people to convert and hopefully buy more kits while doing so.
But that is decreasing, and those conversion options are likely to disappear. GW's goal is that every kit (including terrain and things that would normally just be decorative) can be built straight out of the box and have rules, and every rule has a matching kit you can buy. Conversions are intimidating for the new players GW wants to recruit. They might produce multi-kit purchases by more experienced players, but GW doesn't get to the point of having experienced players if the newbies are scared off by a game where buying a viable configuration for a unit means buying multiple kits and/or going to third-party bits sellers. In short, GW wants a theme park and not a sandbox.
So why don't Plague Marines (a fairly new kit) come with all their weapon options then? They've mostly got one of each option but can take two.
You can get 2 same weapons by buying 2 same kits and building them as it is. No kitbashing. Apple and orange. And as to why? Same as with everything with GW. Greed. They aren't your friends. They are there to get your money without care about how customer friendly it is or what's good for the game or what's balanced.
bananathug wrote: I bought my damned forgeworld dread auto cannon arms at the beginning of 8th based on the index. To have them removed as a valid armament within the same edition is just not fair and would leave me feeling bitter (thank god I'm not on the other side of the pond with the crazy ETC and their forgeworld hang-ups).
the dread autocannon is in the sm index. i have the same fw arm on 2 of my 10 dread sm army that is in the making and i wont remove them. (heck, im even using the chaplain dread that FW now has removed cuz without it my sm army has no hq.)
luckily i wont be doing turneys, and if the dude across the table has issues with me using index equipment or stuff no longer sold, then i will find some1 else to play against.
Excommunicatus wrote: Today I learned that Panasonic have to give me a VCR player and Sony owe me a MiniDisc.
If you learnt that from this thread, you misunderstood the discussion.
The issue isn't that some things only have a limited lifespan. The issue is with things that are still perfectly functional being rendered obsolete at the whim of the company that made them. It's the difference between your VCR no longer working because it's worn out from use, and your VCR no longer working because Panasonic chose to deactivate it.
There is no good reason for GW to remove options, other than to force people to buy new options.
I would like if they provided data sheets for those obscure options people actualky use (chaos bikers), while tossing out options that no one uses (chaos lords on mounts).
Then provide guidence on using those obscure models as something else, i.e. khorne lords on juggernauts count as bloodcrushers.
I would like if they provided data sheets for those obscure options people actualky use (chaos bikers), while tossing out options that no one uses (chaos lords on mounts).
Then provide guidence on using those obscure models as something else, i.e. khorne lords on juggernauts count as bloodcrushers.
But here's the problem with that: If I converted a Chaos Lord on a Jugger, he is and should be able to be used as a Chaos Lord on a Jugger. If I do not play Daemons, why should I be forced to use an inferior datasheet to represent my hard work?
And I mean "inferior" in the regard to Bloodcrushers not being a valid option for my army leader like a Chaos Lord was modeled to be.
I'm ok with GW not printing rules for the model in the Codex because it doesn't have a current model in production. I'm ok with GW stopping the printing of the Index that the rules do exist. I'm ok with having to tote around a copy of the Designers Commentary and my Index to show I can use those rules. I'm ok with GW putting out a free PDF with any Index-only units and options once the Indexes stop being printed. I'm ok with you not using any Index rules for your army. It's your army, not mine.
I am NOT ok with GW saying those rules, that were only valid for less than 2 years, are now illegal. I am NOT ok with someone saying they shouldn't be legal purely on the basis that they are inconvenienced by their existence. I will provide the rules, I am not expecting you to. I am NOT ok with Index-only options being relegated to Open play only, unless Open play magically becomes the common standard mode (it never will) No one should be ok with these either.
It should be the player's choice, because that player investing the time, money and effort to make that model with those options. If it is a bit more effort to keep up with those rules, that's ok. But again, it should be the player's choice to do so, not their opponents choice. If an option is clearly OP, than both players should discuss it pre-game with all things, but seeing that like 95% of Index-only options are hardly OP, it shouldn't be an issue.
It should be the player's choice, because that player investing the time, money and effort to make that model with those options.
But this is what is exactly happening. Some players and tourneys(ETC apparently) don't want to use index so they exclude those things. That does not forbid you from using index units with players and tourneys who accept them. Freedom of choice is what GW gave us, at least for now.
It should be the player's choice, because that player investing the time, money and effort to make that model with those options.
But this is what is exactly happening. Some players and tourneys(ETC apparently) don't want to use index so they exclude those things. That does not forbid you from using index units with players and tourneys who accept them. Freedom of choice is what GW gave us, at least for now.
Indeed, from any "official" rules standpoint.
What I fear is that organized events like ETC and other Tourneys will continue to exclude these options.
Like it or not, organized events DO have an affect on casual play. There is enough overlap of players that use the rules for organized play even in casual games that eventually, Index-only options will be like FW: you'll have to ask your opponent.
At that point, most players (likely including myself) will just give up and stop taking those options.
The larger tournaments rulepacks tend to also affect casual play. If something is banned at Adepticon or the ETC or LVO, often you will see it banned in casual play too because a lot of people use casual play as their testing ground for their tournament play, and that often leaks into ALL casual play in a store.
Which is why when tournaments ban things or change things, some people get up in arms... because it affects their local meta as well.
auticus wrote: The larger tournaments rulepacks tend to also affect casual play. If something is banned at Adepticon or the ETC or LVO, often you will see it banned in casual play too because a lot of people use casual play as their testing ground for their tournament play, and that often leaks into ALL casual play in a store.
Which is why when tournaments ban things or change things, some people get up in arms... because it affects their local meta as well.
Exactly. So when someone says "you can still play X in casual games, it's only organized play that X is banned", I find that statement to be outright false. We all still have to play by the "social standards". So if GW bans something in Matched play, it effectively bans it in all play since Matched play is the "social standard" Bike Librarians, Twin-Autocannon Dreads, the vast majority of Autarch options, and a myriad of other options have been valid options in the past, including the start of this very edition. They should remain valid because enough players have those options.
If 9E drops and "officially" removes them, that's fine because it will also come with many other changes. But they were valid options in this edition and should remain so.
Then your gripe is with Tournament holders, not GW. GW isn't banning anything, tourneys are.
Also, the quickest way to get an index unit banned is to try to exploit it. I saw an Ork thread earlier where someone thought they'd found a shenanigan where an index option could be used to their advantage with the new codex options. Nobody is balancing that so if people find a way to exploit it Indices will be banned. Nobody can expect GW to balance units they don't even make and people might not have.
Which kinda brings me to an old post in this thread. If they(GW) wanted to phase out older units without hassle could easily make these units legal and forever, but just up their price enough to make them that much less attractive(which they've kinda done to quite a few units). People would complain about the ridiculous point costs(which happens to a lot of units so these particular complaints would be lost in a sea) but the blowback would be much less.
Eldarsif wrote: Then your gripe is with Tournament holders, not GW. GW isn't banning anything, tourneys are.
Indeed it is, sorry if that wasn't clear earlier. But GW can help make these options "more" legal by either continuing to support Index options as they have been doing, or to release a free PDF with them once they want to stop printing the Indexes. But what I don't want them to do is label these options "Open play only" as that would pretty much be the same as making them illegal outright.
At the end of the day, my personal interest in this is Twin-Autocannon Dreads as I have one modeled as such, but I only play that at home, so it wouldn't matter outside of those games. But I also use Autarchs. They've always been my favorite Eldar HQ, specifically on a bikes and specifically because they are so customizable. The Codex removed almost all their options. Without the Index options I can't use a Reaper Launcher, which makes the Autarch the ONLY unit that can benefit from both Saim-Hann attributes. I also cannot use Banshee mask, which is vital to getting the Autarch into melee without Overwatch.
Both are powerful options, but hardly make a showing at Tourneys because Farseers and Warlocks are better cheese. The index options allows me personally to use the HQ I want to use and still be good. Otherwise, I'll just take a Farseer on bike, or 2 Warlocks like everyone else, which is boring. My opponents tend to appreciate the variety, which should be encouraged, not banned
Which kinda brings me to an old post in this thread. If they(GW) wanted to phase out older units without hassle could easily make these units legal and forever, but just up their price enough to make them that much less attractive(which they've kinda done to quite a few units). People would complain about the ridiculous point costs(which happens to a lot of units so these particular complaints would be lost in a sea) but the blowback would be much less.
Since points aren't used except in Matched Play, narrative and open games wouldn't suffer for it since the PL remains the same. That's pretty much what they did with Titans. The points costs are prohibitive for Matched Play, but in their natural home in Apocalypse games they're as playable as ever.
It should be the player's choice, because that player investing the time, money and effort to make that model with those options.
But this is what is exactly happening. Some players and tourneys(ETC apparently) don't want to use index so they exclude those things. That does not forbid you from using index units with players and tourneys who accept them. Freedom of choice is what GW gave us, at least for now.
Tournaments forcing you to not use an official publication for rules is NOT the equivalent of giving us options. That's taking them away for literally no good reason.
It should be the player's choice, because that player investing the time, money and effort to make that model with those options.
But this is what is exactly happening. Some players and tourneys(ETC apparently) don't want to use index so they exclude those things. That does not forbid you from using index units with players and tourneys who accept them. Freedom of choice is what GW gave us, at least for now.
Tournaments forcing you to not use an official publication for rules is NOT the equivalent of giving us options. That's taking them away for literally no good reason.
I wouldn't say no "good" reason. TOs have to make restrictions to make tourneys fair. But I agree the decision to remove legal options isn't the best one.
They need to stick with more broad restrictions that affect everyone, rather than just remove options wholesale.
Or on the opposite, make the restrictions so incredibly severe that they don't "trickle down" to casual play.
Removing allies, for example, is such a big nerf to some factions, that it wouldn't be something that casual play would enforce.
And if player want to test their Tourney list, what better way then to face an army that doesn't have the same restrictions as you impose on yourself?
If you can only take a single Faction and beat any army that can cherry pick, isn't that a good indicator that you have the skill for a tourney?
Or on the opposite, make the restrictions so incredibly severe that they don't "trickle down" to casual play.
I think this is brilliant. The only criticism one could move is that for many the "true casual" play does not exist and everything is a preparation to tournaments. Not that I care about the latter
Just to clarify as i just checked the etc rules pack and they banned indexes that have been replaced by codex's it doesn't call out index imperial armour as they are not replaced by the codex.
It's also not the index they have banned persay it just that they decided to not follow the stepping into a new edition FAQ anymore. Which makes sence as GW had already invalidate that with a ruling they made in the T'au Codex FAQ.
Ice_can wrote: Just to clarify as i just checked the etc rules pack and they banned indexes that have been replaced by codex's it doesn't call out index imperial armour as they are not replaced by the codex.
It's also not the index they have banned persay it just that they decided to not follow the stepping into a new edition FAQ anymore. Which makes sence as GW had already invalidate that with a ruling they made in the T'au Codex FAQ.
So wait, they've banned the Indexes, but do they ignore the Designers Commentary allowing index options that did not get update? That's a big difference.
What tournament organisers do is entirely up to them. I think the Indexes are here for another year or two. At that point I think it would be cool for them to have a free online resource collecting Data slates for OOP models and unis.
Hollow wrote: What tournament organisers do is entirely up to them.
Sure, but as we've discussed, if several organized events are doing the same things, these "standards" often trickle down to casual play and become part of the assumed norm.
Eventually, models and options will become unacceptable even for casual play unless GW continues to support them. So, yes, I have my fingers crossed for a PDF or FAQ allowing some options, but I am not holding my breath.
What is most likely going to happen is that GW will stop printing the Indexes, but still have the Designer's Commentary available.
So players that have the Index will continue to be able to use the rules, but it will be akin to when GW released rules in White Dwarf. Only players with that copy of the WD would be able to use the rules, and eventually only if their opponent was ok with it
Remember when special characters were hugely broken and no one allowed them in games?
There always has been and always will be things that have the potential to be excluded. I didn't get to use Abaddon for 3 editions, but that didn't make me regret owning and painting the model.
Ice_can wrote: Just to clarify as i just checked the etc rules pack and they banned indexes that have been replaced by codex's it doesn't call out index imperial armour as they are not replaced by the codex.
It's also not the index they have banned persay it just that they decided to not follow the stepping into a new edition FAQ anymore. Which makes sence as GW had already invalidate that with a ruling they made in the T'au Codex FAQ.
So wait, they've banned the Indexes, but do they ignore the Designers Commentary allowing index options that did not get update? That's a big difference.
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They flat banned Forgeworld actually "Once a codex has been released, all index datasheet options are void."
Damn those ETC people are no fun.
Martel732 wrote: I agree with that approach, myself. I've got 5 Las plas razors and 3 jump priests, too. All are on the chopping block.
I get that the indexes going, as that was legacy support. But to just flat ban forgeworld period that seems uncalled for given GW's point increases.
Also I would like to br able yo play my SoS in a event once they get some non index rules and hopefully some CP and strategums.
Forge world has no one at the wheel anymore for these models. GW cant balance the models they make, and fw has all kinds of crazy mechanics like grav flux. I have a painted deredeo, but I can see the argument that its not fair because it probably got zero playtesting.
I would like if they provided data sheets for those obscure options people actualky use (chaos bikers), while tossing out options that no one uses (chaos lords on mounts).
Then provide guidence on using those obscure models as something else, i.e. khorne lords on juggernauts count as bloodcrushers.
But here's the problem with that:
If I converted a Chaos Lord on a Jugger, he is and should be able to be used as a Chaos Lord on a Jugger.
If I do not play Daemons, why should I be forced to use an inferior datasheet to represent my hard work?
And I mean "inferior" in the regard to Bloodcrushers not being a valid option for my army leader like a Chaos Lord was modeled to be.
I'm ok with GW not printing rules for the model in the Codex because it doesn't have a current model in production.
I'm ok with GW stopping the printing of the Index that the rules do exist.
I'm ok with having to tote around a copy of the Designers Commentary and my Index to show I can use those rules.
I'm ok with GW putting out a free PDF with any Index-only units and options once the Indexes stop being printed.
I'm ok with you not using any Index rules for your army. It's your army, not mine.
I am NOT ok with GW saying those rules, that were only valid for less than 2 years, are now illegal.
I am NOT ok with someone saying they shouldn't be legal purely on the basis that they are inconvenienced by their existence. I will provide the rules, I am not expecting you to.
I am NOT ok with Index-only options being relegated to Open play only, unless Open play magically becomes the common standard mode (it never will)
No one should be ok with these either.
It should be the player's choice, because that player investing the time, money and effort to make that model with those options.
If it is a bit more effort to keep up with those rules, that's ok. But again, it should be the player's choice to do so, not their opponents choice.
If an option is clearly OP, than both players should discuss it pre-game with all things, but seeing that like 95% of Index-only options are hardly OP, it shouldn't be an issue.
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The thing is no index options are OP, but what people are sick of is the constant referencing for options because people are attempting to game the system; i.e. still trying to use index demon princes in Death Guard battalions as death guard, but taking warptime.
However, I see your point. Really the issue could be solved simply by adding options as wargear like in the old times.
Lets take the Chaos Lord as example:
1) Add wargear options "Bike" "Chaos God Mount"
2) Add a block for each piece of gear: "A model on a Bike gets +1W, +1T. As well, change its move characteristic to 14". When this model advances it advances 6" instead of rolling."
3) "A model mounted on a Chaos God Mount recieves the following benefits: If mounted on a Steed of Slanesh it gains Mark of Slanesh, Movement changes to 12", +1T, +1W, and it may Charge after advancing. If mounted on a Palequin of Nurgle it gains the Mark of Nurgle, Movement changes to 7", +2T, +1W, and it gains the Disgustingly Resilient ability. If mounted on a Bloodcrusher of Khorne it gains the Mark of Khorne, Movement Changes to 9", +1T, +1W, and this model may reroll charge distances and gains +1 Str and Attack when it charges, heroicly intervenes, or is charged. If mounted on a Disc of Tzeentch it gains the Mark of Tzeentch, Movement Changes to 11", +1T, +1W, may reroll a single dice roll this model makes each battle round, and it gains the Flying keyword. A model mounted on a Chaos God Mount cannot choose any other mark other than the one given by the mount it rides."
Then give an applicable points adjustment for each piece of wargear based on power, so a Bike would probably be around 20 points, Mounts would probably be Slanesh 16/Nurgle 17/Khorne 20/Tzeentch 25 (just based off the rules I put above). It wouldn't be hard to add Bikes as warpgear options to things like Space Marines, Veterans, Apothecaries, etc. at a flat points cost per model really.
I would like if they provided data sheets for those obscure options people actualky use (chaos bikers), while tossing out options that no one uses (chaos lords on mounts).
Then provide guidence on using those obscure models as something else, i.e. khorne lords on juggernauts count as bloodcrushers.
But here's the problem with that: If I converted a Chaos Lord on a Jugger, he is and should be able to be used as a Chaos Lord on a Jugger. If I do not play Daemons, why should I be forced to use an inferior datasheet to represent my hard work?
And I mean "inferior" in the regard to Bloodcrushers not being a valid option for my army leader like a Chaos Lord was modeled to be.
I'm ok with GW not printing rules for the model in the Codex because it doesn't have a current model in production. I'm ok with GW stopping the printing of the Index that the rules do exist. I'm ok with having to tote around a copy of the Designers Commentary and my Index to show I can use those rules. I'm ok with GW putting out a free PDF with any Index-only units and options once the Indexes stop being printed. I'm ok with you not using any Index rules for your army. It's your army, not mine.
I am NOT ok with GW saying those rules, that were only valid for less than 2 years, are now illegal. I am NOT ok with someone saying they shouldn't be legal purely on the basis that they are inconvenienced by their existence. I will provide the rules, I am not expecting you to. I am NOT ok with Index-only options being relegated to Open play only, unless Open play magically becomes the common standard mode (it never will) No one should be ok with these either.
It should be the player's choice, because that player investing the time, money and effort to make that model with those options. If it is a bit more effort to keep up with those rules, that's ok. But again, it should be the player's choice to do so, not their opponents choice. If an option is clearly OP, than both players should discuss it pre-game with all things, but seeing that like 95% of Index-only options are hardly OP, it shouldn't be an issue.
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The thing is no index options are OP, but what people are sick of is the constant referencing for options because people are attempting to game the system; i.e. still trying to use index demon princes in Death Guard battalions as death guard, but taking warptime.
However, I see your point. Really the issue could be solved simply by adding options as wargear like in the old times.
Lets take the Chaos Lord as example: 1) Add wargear options "Bike" "Chaos God Mount" 2) Add a block for each piece of gear: "A model on a Bike gets +1W, +1T. As well, change its move characteristic to 14". When this model advances it advances 6" instead of rolling." 3) "A model mounted on a Chaos God Mount recieves the following benefits: If mounted on a Steed of Slanesh it gains Mark of Slanesh, Movement changes to 12", +1T, +1W, and it may Charge after advancing. If mounted on a Palequin of Nurgle it gains the Mark of Nurgle, Movement changes to 7", +2T, +1W, and it gains the Disgustingly Resilient ability. If mounted on a Bloodcrusher of Khorne it gains the Mark of Khorne, Movement Changes to 9", +1T, +1W, and this model may reroll charge distances and gains +1 Str and Attack when it charges, heroicly intervenes, or is charged. If mounted on a Disc of Tzeentch it gains the Mark of Tzeentch, Movement Changes to 11", +1T, +1W, may reroll a single dice roll this model makes each battle round, and it gains the Flying keyword. A model mounted on a Chaos God Mount cannot choose any other mark other than the one given by the mount it rides."
Then give an applicable points adjustment for each piece of wargear based on power, so a Bike would probably be around 20 points, Mounts would probably be Slanesh 16/Nurgle 17/Khorne 20/Tzeentch 25 (just based off the rules I put above). It wouldn't be hard to add Bikes as warpgear options to things like Space Marines, Veterans, Apothecaries, etc. at a flat points cost per model really.
Yeah, that would be good too. My issue isn't models/units that can't be used anymore, but options that are actually in the Codex, but no longer on a unit's wargear options. Warptime is not in the DG Codex, so it makes sense for a DGDP to not get it.
Banshee masks and Reaper launchers, however, are in the CWE Codex, with updated rules and points. Autarchs should still be able to take those
But I certainly like your idea for Daemonic Mounts and Jump packs. Just add them as options via PDF vs having their own datasheet
Kaiyanwang wrote: GW does not add the lines for Bikes and whatnot because is afraid of being "Chapterhoused" again. It's really that simple.
They've released more minis in the last 2 years than in the last 20 prior to that (at least it feels that way). There's no reason for them to not just release all these minis will all their options that have been available for years. Most of the options lost have been on HQs, so if wouldn't be hard to just release more claimpacks
Kaiyanwang wrote: GW does not add the lines for Bikes and whatnot because is afraid of being "Chapterhoused" again. It's really that simple.
They've released more minis in the last 2 years than in the last 20 prior to that (at least it feels that way). There's no reason for them to not just release all these minis will all their options that have been available for years. Most of the options lost have been on HQs, so if wouldn't be hard to just release more claimpacks
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Oh, I am all for it. But their investments in this regard are schizophrenic. New factions, 8 Primaris Lieutenants (for the next Codex: Lieutenants, I guess), and factions that lose HQs.
Martel732 wrote: I agree with that approach, myself. I've got 5 Las plas razors and 3 jump priests, too. All are on the chopping block.
I get that the indexes going, as that was legacy support. But to just flat ban forgeworld period that seems uncalled for given GW's point increases.
Also I would like to br able yo play my SoS in a event once they get some non index rules and hopefully some CP and strategums.
Well MY laz-plaz razorbacks are 2e GW. Old rhino hull, metal turret.
Martel732 wrote: I agree with that approach, myself. I've got 5 Las plas razors and 3 jump priests, too. All are on the chopping block.
I get that the indexes going, as that was legacy support. But to just flat ban forgeworld period that seems uncalled for given GW's point increases.
Also I would like to br able yo play my SoS in a event once they get some non index rules and hopefully some CP and strategums.
Well MY laz-plaz razorbacks are 2e GW. Old rhino hull, metal turret.
Yeah the good old days when models where models and dreadnaught plus a sock was the ultimate anti TFG weapon.
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Martel732 wrote: Forge world has no one at the wheel anymore for these models. GW cant balance the models they make, and fw has all kinds of crazy mechanics like grav flux. I have a painted deredeo, but I can see the argument that its not fair because it probably got zero playtesting.
I actually think they were playtested against thr guard and craftworld codex's as they are fairly balanced against them even with all the codex chapter buffs to them.
Heck a large amount of the FW guard units are actually weaker than the codex guard units.
Martel732 wrote: I agree with that approach, myself. I've got 5 Las plas razors and 3 jump priests, too. All are on the chopping block.
I get that the indexes going, as that was legacy support. But to just flat ban forgeworld period that seems uncalled for given GW's point increases.
Also I would like to br able yo play my SoS in a event once they get some non index rules and hopefully some CP and strategums.
Well MY laz-plaz razorbacks are 2e GW. Old rhino hull, metal turret.
Why? I legitimately do not understand this viewpoint. Why do older options HAVE to go away. What is the detriment to the overall game if a handful of players want to tote around extra rules for their old models? Or even let players convert them once they get deeper into the hobby?
I mean, if the point is to cut out options so that the game is more streamlined, the better solution is to ban all Codices and only use Indexes. The whole game in 5 books, well 6 counting the BRB. 8E didn't start getting complicated until the Codices started mucking things up. I like the Codices, but I also liked that brief golden time in which I owned all the Space Marine rules in a single book
Although I don't really like it, I can understand why they have taken away options from the Codex that need a lot of modelling and conversion work, or that use parts that are no longer available.
However, the policy on straightforward kitbashing of compatible parts is inconsistent.
For example, they still allow special weapons and sergeant weapons in standard bike squads, even though that requires mixing bike squads with tactical squad parts.
However, they no long have Apothecaries on bikes or Company Veterans on bikes, even though these just require mixing in parts from the Command Squad kit - the arms and torsos are all compatible, so no modelling or conversion work is needed. It's strange that they don't still allow options like this - it doesn't seem to provide much of an opportunity for 3rd parties when GW already makes all the necessary sprues. In fact, it would just be another (small) sales opportunity for GW without having to make anything new.
Then they strangely still allow some options that require more conversion work - e.g. scout sergeants can take any sergeant weapons, even though the scout kit doesn't have them!
Why? I legitimately do not understand this viewpoint. Why do older options HAVE to go away. What is the detriment to the overall game if a handful of players want to tote around extra rules for their old models? Or even let players convert them once they get deeper into the hobby?
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Indeed. It made some amount of sense when they removed the Las/plas option due to it being useless under the rules at that time (4th ed, IIRC) but after bringing it back, it seems unnecessary to remove it yet again.
Kaiyanwang wrote: GW does not add the lines for Bikes and whatnot because is afraid of being "Chapterhoused" again.
It's really that simple.
They've released more minis in the last 2 years than in the last 20 prior to that (at least it feels that way). There's no reason for them to not just release all these minis will all their options that have been available for years.
Most of the options lost have been on HQs, so if wouldn't be hard to just release more claimpacks
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Oh, I am all for it. But their investments in this regard are schizophrenic. New factions, 8 Primaris Lieutenants (for the next Codex: Lieutenants, I guess), and factions that lose HQs.
Today they have announced ANOTHER plastic special edition Primaris Lieutenant.
Spoiler:
We have now more Primaris Lieutenant than plastic Ork, Tau and Dark Eldar HQ options combined. And all of them have the same DAMM GEAR.
HoundsofDemos wrote: What kind of feeling is that facial expression trying to convey?
Constipation?
Lol so true.
It also make me laugh that they've took the time and money to produce what five or six clam pack characters when all they need to do was a kit like the space marine commander but Primaris sized. Would have saved them some money and probably sold more.
We have now more Primaris Lieutenant than plastic Ork, Tau and Dark Eldar HQ options combined. And all of them have the same DAMM GEAR.
I would not be surprised if GW sold as many Space Marines as Orks, Tau, and Dark Eldar combined.
Sure, but these guys are limited which means there's no way they'll sell as much as a product that's always available (plus there's now 9 different LT sculpts, how many people need 9 LTs?). At this point I'm convinced that GW could provide plenty of alternate HQ sculpts as a solution to their monopose designs. A couple Farseers here, a couple Ork bosses there etc...
We have now more Primaris Lieutenant than plastic Ork, Tau and Dark Eldar HQ options combined. And all of them have the same DAMM GEAR.
I would not be surprised if GW sold as many Space Marines as Orks, Tau, and Dark Eldar combined.
Sure, but these guys are limited which means there's no way they'll sell as much as a product that's always available (plus there's now 9 different LT sculpts, how many people need 9 LTs?). At this point I'm convinced that GW could provide plenty of alternate HQ sculpts as a solution to their monopose designs. A couple Farseers here, a couple Ork bosses there etc...
But if you're going to make a promotional miniature for large tournaments, why not make it for the most collected faction in your game? Are you really going to get the same sales figures from a Farseer as a Space Marine?
OrkPlayer137 wrote: Although I don't really like it, I can understand why they have taken away options from the Codex that need a lot of modelling and conversion work, or that use parts that are no longer available.
However, the policy on straightforward kitbashing of compatible parts is inconsistent.
For example, they still allow special weapons and sergeant weapons in standard bike squads, even though that requires mixing bike squads with tactical squad parts.
However, they no long have Apothecaries on bikes or Company Veterans on bikes, even though these just require mixing in parts from the Command Squad kit - the arms and torsos are all compatible, so no modelling or conversion work is needed. It's strange that they don't still allow options like this - it doesn't seem to provide much of an opportunity for 3rd parties when GW already makes all the necessary sprues. In fact, it would just be another (small) sales opportunity for GW without having to make anything new.
Then they strangely still allow some options that require more conversion work - e.g. scout sergeants can take any sergeant weapons, even though the scout kit doesn't have them!
Don't forget that they allow Librarians to take Jump Packs, even though they don't make a model that comes with one... While removing the Codex option for a Blood Angels Sanguinary Priest to take one.
We have now more Primaris Lieutenant than plastic Ork, Tau and Dark Eldar HQ options combined. And all of them have the same DAMM GEAR.
I would not be surprised if GW sold as many Space Marines as Orks, Tau, and Dark Eldar combined.
Sure, but these guys are limited which means there's no way they'll sell as much as a product that's always available (plus there's now 9 different LT sculpts, how many people need 9 LTs?). At this point I'm convinced that GW could provide plenty of alternate HQ sculpts as a solution to their monopose designs. A couple Farseers here, a couple Ork bosses there etc...
But if you're going to make a promotional miniature for large tournaments, why not make it for the most collected faction in your game? Are you really going to get the same sales figures from a Farseer as a Space Marine?
You misunderstand me. I was just saying that if GW has the resources to produce 9 variants of the same thing (of which like half are only for promotional purposes) then they can easily release alternate kits for other factions available all the time.
But who knows? Maybe people would be more interested in a limited edition Farseer instead of yet another LT. At this point the LT thing is practically a meme. Did you notice how no one cared about it when it was announced? Meanwhile the eldar ranger created a lot more buzz.
And considering that they made a nighthaunt promo fig it's not far fetched to propose that.
But that's enough off-topic for now I think. As to the OP's question, I fully expect the indexes to be pulled from the store as soon as the last faction gets their codex. I also expect them to reintroduce discontinued models in plastic and give the rules online. Maybe not all of them, but probably most. Besides, it's a balancing headache to try to tweak codex rules when people can fall back to the index.
That Lt. reminds me how much I hate bare heads on any Marine. Seriously. You're going into combat and you need that protection ya know? Obviously the exception is Space Wolves but they aren't the brightest crayons in the box anyway.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: That Lt. reminds me how much I hate bare heads on any Marine. Seriously. You're going into combat and you need that protection ya know? Obviously the exception is Space Wolves but they aren't the brightest crayons in the box anyway.
You'd love my Reivers. In addition of having bare heads, some of them have one bare arm!
Regarding the Lieutenant, I've not been a massive fan of some (not keen on the Blood Angel one, the 500 stores one, or the auto bolt rifle one), but this one is easily my favourite. Definitely want this one!
I'd grab the Conquest one, Calsius, but my Ultramarines aren't Primaris.
However, the policy on straightforward kitbashing of compatible parts is inconsistent.
For example, they still allow special weapons and sergeant weapons in standard bike squads, even though that requires mixing bike squads with tactical squad parts.
However, they no long have Apothecaries on bikes or Company Veterans on bikes, even though these just require mixing in parts from the Command Squad kit - the arms and torsos are all compatible, so no modelling or conversion work is needed. It's strange that they don't still allow options like this - it doesn't seem to provide much of an opportunity for 3rd parties when GW already makes all the necessary sprues. In fact, it would just be another (small) sales opportunity for GW without having to make anything new.
Then they strangely still allow some options that require more conversion work - e.g. scout sergeants can take any sergeant weapons, even though the scout kit doesn't have them!
It's even simpler than that: they don't make jump pack versions of most characters, but you can take them in the codex.
I can't speak for their overall strategy. What I would guess is that they want to limit the codex to options that have kits, or extremely simple conversions, AND that they want to carry forward. For example, the basilisk kit does not come with a hull heavy bolter, only a hull heavy flamer. But that's a simple converstion from any other chimera hull, and domesthing they'll want to keep.
Likewise, bike special weapons are going to stick around. They've been a steady option for 20 years, and had models until they purged the metal/plastic hybrid boxes. Biker veterans/command might be something they want to keep for a White Scars only option.
The key is that nothing is invalidated... yet. It's possible that the indexes all disappear, although there really isn't a lot of precedent for GW clearly invalidating prior rules, absent a massive shift in the game (such as 2nd to 3rd, or 7th to 8th).
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: That Lt. reminds me how much I hate bare heads on any Marine. Seriously. You're going into combat and you need that protection ya know? Obviously the exception is Space Wolves but they aren't the brightest crayons in the box anyway.
At least the helmets are WITH the Primaris models, so it looks like they could put it on at any moment. I hate some of the older models, particularly Terminators, that don't even have the helmet anywhere on the model
