<TEMPESTUS REGIMENT>
Militarum Tempestus units in your army gain the <Tempestus Regiment> keyword. When you include a unit with the <Tempestus Regiment> keyword in your army, you must nominate which Tempestus Regiment it is from, and then replace all instances of the <Tempestus Regiment> keyword on that unit's datasheet with the name of your chosen Tempestus Regiment. The <Tempestus Regiment> keyword can only be replaced by one of the following:

54th Psian Jackals

32nd Thetoid Eagles

133rd Lambdan Lions

43rd Iotan Dragons

55th Kappic Eagles

9th Iotan Gorgonnes

If your army contains any units with both the <Regiment> and <Tempestus Regiment> keywords, you must choose a different keyword to replace each of those keywords on those units' datasheets.


REGIMENTAL DOCTRINES
If your army is Battle-forged, all <Tempestus Regiment> units in a Militarum Tempestus Detachment gain a Regimental Doctrine selected from those presented on the page opposite, so long as every unit in that Detachment (excluding the Advisors and Auxilla mentioned below) has the same <Tempestus Regiment> keyword.



Greater Good FAQ:


ADVISORS AND AUXILLA
The units listed below can be included in a Militarum Tempestus Detachment, despite not having the Militarum Tempestus keyword. In addition, they do not prevent other units in that Detachment from gaining a Regimental Doctrine. Note, however, that the units listed below can never themselves benefit from a Regimental Doctrine.


HEIRLOOMS OF THE REGIMENTS
If your army is led by a Warlord in a Militarum Tempestus Detachment, you can give one of the following Relics to a Character model in a Militarum Tempestus Detachment from your army instead of giving them a Relic from Codex: Astra Militarum.
Note that some Relics are weapons that replace one of the model's existing weapons. Where this is the case, you must, if you are using points values, still pay the cost of the weapon that is being replaced. Write down any Relics your models have on your army roster.


MILITARUM TEMPESTUS WARLORD TRAITS
If a Militarum Tempestus unit in a Militarum Tempestus Detachment from your army is your Warlord, you can pick a Militarum Tempestus Warlord Trait from the list below instead of from the Warlord Traits table in Codex: Astra Militarum, but only if your Warlord is from the relevant Tempestus Regiment.


MILITARUM TEMPESTUS SPECIALIST DETACHMENT


MILITARUM TEMPESTUS STRATEGEMS
If your army is Battle-forged and includes any Militarum Tempestus Detachments (excluding Auxiliary Support Detachments), you have access to the Strategems shown here, and can spend Command Points to activate them. When one of these Strategems refers to a unit from your army, that unit must be in a Militarum Tempestus Detachment from your army.

Universal Militarum Tempestus Strategems:

Regiment-Specific Militarum Tempestus Strategems:



ASTRA MILITARUM STRATEGEMS
(That Can Be Used With Tempestus Detachment Units)


MILITARUM TEMPESTUS UNITS

Tempestor Prime


Militarum Tempestus Scions


Militarum Tempestus Command Squad


Taurox Prime

If you have any feedback or ideas to add to the primer, feel free to let me know, otherwise I welcome discussion on Militarum Tempestus tactics!

I'm liking the idea of a small detachment of Scions to cause some backfield mischief for my Guard army. Something like Tempestor and two 10 man squads, with 4plasma and 4 melta. Thinking of the Dragons for the extra range, as well as giving the relic pistol to a squad for 11 plasma shots on the drop total. Gorgonnes are also a possibility, for that sweet 5" melta drop and extra shots.

I know melta gets a bad rep but it's a model thing really. Getting plasma Kasrkin these days is expensive, so you work with what you have.

 Trickstick wrote:
I'm liking the idea of a small detachment of Scions to cause some backfield mischief for my Guard army. Something like Tempestor and two 10 man squads, with 4plasma and 4 melta. Thinking of the Dragons for the extra range, as well as giving the relic pistol to a squad for 11 plasma shots on the drop total. Gorgonnes are also a possibility, for that sweet 5" melta drop and extra shots.

I know melta gets a bad rep but it's a model thing really. Getting plasma Kasrkin these days is expensive, so you work with what you have.

If you just said everything was Plasma people won't care.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If you just said everything was Plasma people won't care.

Eh, I am a bit of a stickler for my own wysiwyg to be honest. I like everything being correct. I even have correct grenades, bayonets, ammo packs, and water skins on all of my basic infantry.

Not that I am to bothered about others, I will always allow counts-as if it is simple to understand.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, something I may have wrong and wanted to toss it out. The Gorgonnes relic replaces a boltgun. I think the only tempestus model that can use a boltgun is the Commissar. However, they don't have <Tempestus Regiment>, so can't be Gorgonnes. I think this means that no one can actually use the relic, am I missing something?

Maybe you don't actually need the regiment keyword to use the relic? Not having the exact wording makes it hard for me to check.

Can a tempest prime in the jackals give orders to a scion squad in the eagles?
I get that commisars could give orders to either -- and a commisar with voice of command is a powerful warlord trait in an army with scions anyway -- but can they do so?

Do scions have access still to generic gaurd orders like firstrankfiresecondrankfire, or the generic scion order "extermination protocol sancioned"?

This is VERY important for design now, with 12 inch deepstrike possible for short range fire by hotshotlasguns, and the possibility of 36 bs3+ shots per 70 point bare troop unit of anti-horde with ap-2!!!
Of course, that same unit with "exteriminaiton protocol sanctioned also cast on it (courtesy laurels of command) could put those 37 shots into a knight gallant, and roll as many as 74 times fishing for sixes to wound it. With something like amazing results possible, because this 70 point unit just became the workhorse of the scion army.

Not sure about the first 2, but yes they get all of the generic guard orders plus their specific one "EPS"
Yes if you FRFSRF on a squad of Dragons they will melt hordes and any infantry really


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I know the Kappic Eagles aren't considered one of the stronger traits, however, for the way i run my scions 2 10 man squads with 4 plasma and plasma pistol in valks and a 10 man "dakka" squad with 4 volleyguns in a dakkaprime, i feel like its the strongest trait as i can turn one drop both valk squads in their face for 18 plasma shots that hit on 2's and reroll wounds (extermination protocol) in addition to the rest of my krieg laying down fire support. Then turn 2 the 10 man dakka squad jumps out of the prime somewhere in the mid-field and also hits on 2's with 16 volleygun shots (plus taurox wont move so hitting on 3's with 28 shots)> Also, a 4 plasma command squad jumps down turn 2 or 3 as a small reaction "force"

Advanced Countermeasures is very interesting, could make Valks playable. Don't have my book with me, but there was some interesting stuff for Valk backed Tempestus detachment in Vigulus.

Going to love the extra 6" range. Plus the Killing zone strat for +1 to wound.

I like that there are now benefits to running large squads to maximize strats

Dukeofstuff wrote:

Of course, that same unit with "exteriminaiton protocol sanctioned also cast on it (courtesy laurels of command) could put those 37 shots into a knight gallant, and roll as many as 74 times fishing for sixes to wound it. With something like amazing results possible, because this 70 point unit just became the workhorse of the scion army.

One squad with both FRFSRF and elimination protocol (only 50% chance) will have to have your warlord drop with them and they only average 7 6's to wound so only about 5 wounds on a knight. Then they just get wiped and you lose warlord.
36 shots, 24 hit, 4 then 3 wounds with the rerolls, 5+ save on the knight is 5/7 wounds go through

I was thinking two Scion Detachments. One would be Jackals with x4 10 Scions + Taurox, and use the Warlord Trait with maximum effect. Then the second detachment would be Dragons all Deep Striking. Haven't decided on a third detachment but likely stuff with just heavy weapons for the harder to kill monsters and tanks.

I will almost definately run Jackals in friendly games because the trait is too inconsistent for tournament as there are a few armies which just ignore it, but it sounds like so much fun to play. And who doesn't want a tempestor prime running around with 6 attacks with a beefed up chainsword

Now that I think about it, the meta is full of space marines, guard and aeldari the leadership might be good agaisnt that. You kill 4 shinging spears and now they auto-fail morale and each one that runs is a 34 poiunt unit. The warlord trait could really help too as my whole army is packed into 2 valks and a dakkaprime, it pretty much lets me redeploy my whole army. (the scion part of it, my krieg support will just have the take whats coming, although thats all they really live for so win-win)

Robcio wrote:

Dukeofstuff wrote:

Of course, that same unit with "exteriminaiton protocol sanctioned also cast on it (courtesy laurels of command) could put those 37 shots into a knight gallant, and roll as many as 74 times fishing for sixes to wound it. With something like amazing results possible, because this 70 point unit just became the workhorse of the scion army.

One squad with both FRFSRF and elimination protocol (only 50% chance) will have to have your warlord drop with them and they only average 7 6's to wound so only about 5 wounds on a knight. Then they just get wiped and you lose warlord.
36 shots, 24 hit, 4 then 3 wounds with the rerolls, 5+ save on the knight is 5/7 wounds go through

I appreaciate that. Remember however, you can drop more than one such unit, if you wish, and make your valkyrie landing bubble into a firebase the enemy won't necessarily easily remove. Bring 5 crusaders iwth you and cower behind your valkyries, but use the orders to command your expendable troops out front. Or drop two such units and slash fire into a huge pile of orcs, each one, hoping for the doubleshots.
Also, I yypically run Yarrik in my valkyrie bubble, so rerolls on 1's + the trait that lets you get 2 hits on a natural six to hit means 36 shots, 1's reroll (5 hits generated), 2's die, but 3-5 get 18 hits and sixes get 12. so 35ish hits per unit is statistically likely, leading to 35 rolls to wound (6 should do it) and then 29 more attempts to wound (5 should do it) or 11. that's between 5.5 on a 4++ knight, and about 8 on a not 4++ knight, per 70 point infantry unit. The other unit, that doesn't get both orders, surely will do half as well -- but this is also a point you might consider using a command reroll to stack the odds in your favor.

Edit. I see I erred in saying you could drop two that way in one round. However, I have often had a few officers make it to round two, and a well protected warlord among them, so if you rinse and repeat, I reckon you will put a knight in the hurt far better than was possible last week.

Redeployment Traits or Strats are always worth it. And their Strat ain't too shabby. And they're really the only morale based Trait that might affect MSU. I'd never use their particular Relic though.

Dukeofstuff wrote:

Robcio wrote:

Dukeofstuff wrote:

Of course, that same unit with "exteriminaiton protocol sanctioned also cast on it (courtesy laurels of command) could put those 37 shots into a knight gallant, and roll as many as 74 times fishing for sixes to wound it. With something like amazing results possible, because this 70 point unit just became the workhorse of the scion army.

One squad with both FRFSRF and elimination protocol (only 50% chance) will have to have your warlord drop with them and they only average 7 6's to wound so only about 5 wounds on a knight. Then they just get wiped and you lose warlord.
36 shots, 24 hit, 4 then 3 wounds with the rerolls, 5+ save on the knight is 5/7 wounds go through

I appreaciate that. But if you are dropping other scions around them (like a trio of plasma scion command squads) and firing artillery, that 5 or so points (for a 70 point model that just deepstrikes in and blasts away) is going to help -- and if you have a couple valkyries floating around to cower between, those warlords can be surprisingly hard to kill. (I used to run ogryn bodygaurds with my scion command group, too, which tends to grant that guy much longer life even as the obg get slaughtered by enemy infantry.)

True, and you can use the +1W strat to get those numbers up. But it's still only 50% chance to get both orders, plus I'd rather just have the double order on my plasma squads to reroll 1's and wounds cuz they'll do more damage. I just feel like the strength 3 is outshined by other guns

It is .. right up until a horde strikes. Again, yarrik being in my van has made me pretty light on having to pass orders to my plasma, the ONLY thing I need give them is the extermination protocol, and they already are rerolling their 1's (and with the drop commander nearby, stepping out of valkyries, they also fire at +1. So they are hitting on 2's and rerolling 1's and rerolling all wounds on the knight, without needing double orders. That is what the OTHER tempestor primes come in the valkyries to do, but the fellow with the laurels (does not have ot be the warlord, just a guy with the relic laurels) is there for the people who need multiple orders cause they deepstrike in to support.

This just gives me a new trick to add to the mix, is all.

edit. yes, I am excited. I beat a tau army today in a game using this mix of stuff, its just plain FUN.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Redeployment Traits or Strats are always worth it. And their Strat ain't too shabby. And they're really the only morale based Trait that might affect MSU. I'd never use their particular Relic though.

Just remember to paint them midnight blue with lightning bolts.

Right, I forgot you had yarrick. I see where you are coming from now. I also thought the laurels of command were a warlord trait for some reason. Yeah valk scions (and in general scions) are just so thematically cool, I love them. So glad we got new stuff to play around with

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Redeployment Traits or Strats are always worth it. And their Strat ain't too shabby. And they're really the only morale based Trait that might affect MSU. I'd never use their particular Relic though.

Just remember to paint them midnight blue with lightning bolts.

Oh and bat wings on their helmets, how cool would that be?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Redeployment Traits or Strats are always worth it. And their Strat ain't too shabby. And they're really the only morale based Trait that might affect MSU. I'd never use their particular Relic though.

Just remember to paint them midnight blue with lightning bolts.

Oh and bat wings on their helmets, how cool would that be?

Probably heretical.

I've been running scions for my inquisitorial stormtroopers for a while now. I am really excited to see a tactica!

I'm planning on running some scion squads of Kappic Eagles. 10 man with 4 hot shot volley guns in a taurox with hot shot volleys and gatling gun, times three. Run them up the board turn 1, with the taurox putting a dent in the enemy horde rushing objectives, turn 2 they disembark and absolutely fry anything in their way that isn't a vehicle. Another detachment of plasma dudes coming in from valkyries for the vehicles/tough infantry/monsters. Hitting on 2's and combining Killing Zone and Point Blank Efficacy will annihilate hordes, then go step on objectives and use the Tauroxes as a wall to keep them safe. Some crack shot naked squads to drop in and take objectives from infantry/jump on far objectives too.

I'm not a competitive player, but this sounds fun as hell.

I like the Kappic Eagles. I think you can precision drop those guys into cover/ruin with 5" pop an enemy Model, then use the Tactical Misdirection to give more than likely -1 to hit for your entire army.

Use 2 astropath to buff them with Physic Barrier and Nightshroud for more survivability.

Or just fly the Valykrie up close, using advanced counter measures stratagem if needed. Now your Valkyrie is at -1 to hit and screening the entire army.

Taking just a small detachment you can rinse and repeat.

What you mean by screening? Enemy can ignore the -1 to hit valkyrie and shoot at rest at will?

tneva82 wrote:
What you mean by screening? Enemy can ignore the -1 to hit valkyrie and shoot at rest at will?

If the valkyrie is the closed model, you play that stratagem, if they shoot anything other than the Valkyrie then its at a -1 to hit.

If they shoot at the Valkyrie it to still gets its inherent -1 to hit.
If you have astropaths in range you can buff it with nightshroud and pyschic barrier. So now your Valkyrie is -2 to hit and a 2+ save.
Just load the pyskers in there and drop them near him out of LoS of enemy in ruin to cast the powers.


Edit: can even use Hammer Blow Stratagem for another -1 to hit on a unit. So something elite like a 6 man unit of Aggressors, or Devastator Centurions from Imperial fist, could be shooting at anywhere from -1 to -3 against your valkyrie. Everything else in there army is shooting at - or -2 (if you get Nightshroud). Or if they shoot anything else other than the Valkyrie at a -1 to hit.

The -1 to hit strat is only usable on Regiment units, so I don't think a Valkyrie can get it.

It also says so long as the unit is the closest visible enemy unit, so you can't just hide a squad out of sight after killing a model sadly.

Precision drop doesn't seem to exclude a unit from charging after using it, so it might actually be quite easy to use a 10 man squad to wrap a tank after arriving in.

 Sentineil wrote:
The -1 to hit strat is only usable on Regiment units, so I don't think a Valkyrie can get it.

It also says so long as the unit is the closest visible enemy unit, so you can't just hide a squad out of sight after killing a model sadly.

Precision drop doesn't seem to exclude a unit from charging after using it, so it might actually be quite easy to use a 10 man squad to wrap a tank after arriving in.

Yeah cant work on valkyrie but you can still use it on cheap 5 man scions squad. Or like you said. didnt even think abuot that.

Thats nasty. Drop in shoot, (potentially out of LoS) give up shooting and just charge in to tie up a unit. get a model killed, tripoint. Pop that stratagem. Now they cant even shoot that unit first to stop the -1 to the rest of your army.

I actually like this a lot better. Still T3 though so its gonna die after 1 turn. Might be better to hide them

Hammer Blow 2CP
Use this Strategem in your Shooting phase, when a model is destroyed by an attack made by an Aeronautica Imperialis model with the Flyer Battlefield Role from your army. That destroyed model's unit is pinned until the start of your next turn. Halve the result of any Advance and Charge rolls made for pinned units. When resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon by a model from a pinned unit, subtract 1 from the hit roll.

Stormtroopers get a strat for any imperial flyer, nice. And that's pretty good too. A culture or Avenger can pretty reliably knock a model off an enemy unit and being able to cut advance, charge, and BS is pretty handy. Plus that can combo with the -1 to hit strats some of the Stormtroopers regiments get.


Overall the Stormtrooper supplement looks to be a surprise hit. Most of these regiments have some really cool and different playstyles, and they look like they pretty much all can hold their own. The jackals, eagles, lions, and dragons all have some really great abilities and combos if done correctly. None of them seem like no brainers though, you'll have to set them up right and really maximize the first drop, but that's very appropriate for Stormtroopers and should be how they play

Also, adding this from other thread on regard to jackals

 Sentineil wrote:
It's a lot of investment for something that can be negated with a 2cp strat.

It is definitely fun, but I think stacking to wipe one squad is a risk. It will be great for horde clearing and making 5 man squads actually fear moral.

I think the key to making it work is not to stack it all on one enemy squad, but to spread it among a whole enemy army. He can only autopass one morale check. So you spread the damage a bit across a few units. So this probably works best as a mono or mostly mono stormtroopers force. This trait also works with tauroxes as well, so you can use some hiding in the back to help plink units for morale checks. Super deathstacking a single enemy squad is perhaps too easily countered, but say casting terrify on one enemy lynchpin unit while using the artillery debuffs on another gives you reasonable chances to wreck both squads, and the opponent will have to choose. He's more likely to pass the squad with less casualties, but if he's wrong he can lose more men. He can auto pass the squad with more casualties but is it worth two CP to save 1-2 centurions for example, especially when the average tournament list is not planning on reserving 2 cp for autopass morale of all things.

Also, making a marine player burn 2 cp could be a big deal. We tend to be swimming in CP as mono guard. Perhaps it's worth it for us to burn 2-3 cp just to make the opponent burn 2, because he may start the game with 10 while we can easily start the game with 20. Perhaps one of the biggest bits of utility this list has is forcing your opponent to burn CP he can't afford. I mean take an army like admech or CSM. They're needing every CP planned to the wire usually. Forcing them to burn 2cp is a doubletap robbed from a CSM chaincannons squad, or a wrath of Mars from a Kastelans castle. You're quite literally fighting a war of attrition with CP at that point. Even better if you can force him to auspex scan and burn even more CP, killing a small Scion squad only for more to drop in behind it.

Remember you have to kill something as well.

So here is a trick I used to use in valkyries all the time.
10 men squads leave 2 open slots.
crusaders can take 2 man squads, giving you 3 attempts to make a charge, any charge, against the enemy with 3++ shielded microunits.
Crusaders don't care from shooting, so drop them 9 inches exactly away from your target behind a ruin wall. (There is a lot of that terrain nearby).

You can still carry the full 10 man scions in the bird, or better yet, a pair of 5 man scions units that you have included a powerweapon with since you plan to use them for this strat.
It gives an extra roll to get into melee with 1 available reroll, its decent odds you can you can zip 2 crusaders up to the tank, and your scions can kill something else that your artillery section weakened. Then roll a 6 inch charge and pop the strat, immune to overwatch, and bring the crusaders if they failed the charge in with a move/charge next round.

Bonus points for an astropath to throw malstrom at the tank each roudn and a powerfist on each of the two 5 man scion squadlets, in addition to a plasma pistol. You will get your -1 to be shot, but you will ALSO tear that tank up with gaurd units in melee, which is not a statement you often hear stated, and your pistols+powerfists+crusaders around means that jumping your squads with a countercharge won't be entirely free, either.

Its annoying as heck even without the strat

You think Officers of the Fleet would be worth anything? They're dirt cheap for a couple of Mortal wounds and holding objectives.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You think Officers of the Fleet would be worth anything? They're dirt cheap for a couple of Mortal wounds and holding objectives.

There's also that new stratagem, so you can trigger the mortal wounds easier and from some scions, plus give your valks reroll ones on a unit. Could be interesting, was planning on converting one

Robcio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You think Officers of the Fleet would be worth anything? They're dirt cheap for a couple of Mortal wounds and holding objectives.

There's also that new stratagem, so you can trigger the mortal wounds easier and from some scions, plus give your valks reroll ones on a unit. Could be interesting, was planning on converting one

I really like the paint job I did on mine. As they are naval officers and not guard/tempestus, it gives you an excuse to do a completely different colour scheme on one model. I painted mine in my BFG colours for Battlefleet Halcyon.

I'm curious which option fits Kasrkin fluff-wise. I've got a good amount of Kasrkin (17(?) metal, 10 Kitbash, and 32 yet to Kitbash still), and while I'll likely be doing Iotan Dragons for most games, I wonder if anything would fit better for narrative games.

Arcanis161 wrote:
I'm curious which option fits Kasrkin fluff-wise. I've got a good amount of Kasrkin (17(?) metal, 10 Kitbash, and 32 yet to Kitbash still), and while I'll likely be doing Iotan Dragons for most games, I wonder if anything would fit better for narrative games.

Interesting question. Kasrkin were represented in the 3.5 codex by the Grenadiers doctrine, which allowed you to take stormtroopers as troops. The only difference were that they couldn't deepstrike or infiltrate. So, I thought to go through the new regiments and discount anything that would be attached to being drop troops. First to go were the Gorgonnes, who have a drop themed stratagem. The Jackals' redeployment warlord trait seemed a bit like infiltration, so I discounted that too.

That leaves us with four. Next I remembered that Kasrkin pre-date the volley gun, so can get rid of the Kappic Eagles. Their ability to use heavy would be pointless.

Then we consider the fact that Kasrkin were not even armed with hot-shot lasguns. They had Hellguns, which were AP5 lasguns, having less AP than the later versions with AP3. So we can't have the Lambdan Lions, their increased AP would be inappropriate.

So we have the Thetoid eagles or the Iotan Dragons. And then I see something that would have made this entire process pointless: hellguns were 24" weapons. So the Dragons are the right answer. I couldn't have seen that first could I? Their stratagem "drilled to perfection" sounds very Cadian, especially as the Kasrkin were supposed to have some of the most rigorous training in the Imperium. The precision targetting warlord trait is similar to the old sharpshooter doctrine that Cadians had in 3.5, and the relic is a Plasma pistol. Not much to say about that really.

So there you go. Iotan Dragons (or dragoons as I keep calling them).

As an aside, why on earth are there two regiments called Eagles? Makes it really hard to just refer to them by their last names.

Edit: I also just noticed you said Dragons for most games. I guess thats good that it matches the fluff!

Naming two of the Regiments Eagles was unexcusable. They seriously couldn't come up with another name?

Fisheyes wrote:
Naming two of the Regiments Eagles was unexcusable. They seriously couldn't come up with another name?

To further complicate things, two are Eagles and two are Iotan — I suppose we'll have to refer to them either by the regiment number or their full name lol. These were all taken from the old Militarum Tempestus codex though, so they totally could have picked out two other unique regiments listed in that book — but it's a small complaint for an otherwise-awesome and unexpected Stormtrooper supplement.

Fisheyes wrote:
Naming two of the Regiments Eagles was unexcusable. They seriously couldn't come up with another name?

These were regiments that we’re originally in the Scion codex. They didn’t pull them out of nowhere. There are multiple Eagles, Gorgonnes, Dragons, Lions, etc.
Militarum Tempestus regiment naming convention follows the guidelines of Mythological creature, predator, bird of prey, and sometimes mixtures of both.

 Apple Peel wrote:

Fisheyes wrote:
Naming two of the Regiments Eagles was unexcusable. They seriously couldn't come up with another name?

These were regiments that we’re originally in the Scion codex. They didn’t pull them out of nowhere. There are multiple Eagles, Gorgonnes, Dragons, Lions, etc.
Militarum Tempestus regiment naming convention follows the guidelines of Mythological creature, predator, bird of pray, and sometimes mixtures of both.

Mine follow the naming conventions but are homebrew so I can jump between traits: The Falconfall 56th.

Theyre also entirely kitbashed from Skitarii, Marine Scouts and some Necron stuff. Cost me a fortune to assemble but I like them.

What are the Gauss Blasters supposed to be? Otherwise fantastic work. Very cohesive and looks great.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What are the Gauss Blasters supposed to be? Otherwise fantastic work. Very cohesive and looks great.

Plasma/volley guns depending on what rules GW decides to write for them.

Cheers for the compliments.

Tsctically, I always liked the idea of a firebase supported by drop infantry and vice versa. So I kitbashed some armigers to provide the big guns. In my head they're airborne armour. I call them 'Bridgehead Heavy Cavalry'.

Not a bad Armiger stand-in. Most would not bat an eye.

Wish I liked the Armiger models more.

Does anyone have Vigulus handy? Curious what synergies exist between it and PA

So what are people's thoughts on Jackals vs Dragoons? They seem like the two stand-out doctrines for what are, effectively glass cannon units.

The only thing about the morale thing is it won't work against fearless stuff. The extra AP trait, I've discounted already as i think Tempestus already have enough AP. Is the extra 6 inch range the one with the most utilty?

Hey all!

I heard the Militarum Tempestus got some love recently and am looking to paint up some Psian Jackals (best color scheme imo).

Now, I am a WYSIWYG player.
The one thing that stopped me from playing the army before was the heavy reliance on Plasma Gunners and the lack of options to build Scions with Plasma Guns other than the pointing hand option.

Are there any different/new options without having to do too much converting?

Just really not a fan of having multiple squads but all of them having 2 guys with the same pose for Plasmas,,,

Banville wrote:So what are people's thoughts on Jackals vs Dragoons? They seem like the two stand-out doctrines for what are, effectively glass cannon units.

The only thing about the morale thing is it won't work against fearless stuff. The extra AP trait, I've discounted already as i think Tempestus already have enough AP. Is the extra 6 inch range the one with the most utilty?

If you want to run Jackals effectively, you do need to build around morale. Up further in the thread is a good explanation of lots of ways to get negative morale mods. I’d probably recommend using ranged Taurox Prime load out for Jackals as well so one could safely plink from afar.
For Dragons—overall best utility. Almost as much damage with TDF as the Stormtroopers doctrine, better use of hot-shot lasguns, safe deepstrike against Auspex and can still work plasma against Infiltrators.

As Foretold wrote:Hey all!

I heard the Militarum Tempestus got some love recently and am looking to paint up some Psian Jackals (best color scheme imo).

Now, I am a WYSIWYG player.
The one thing that stopped me from playing the army before was the heavy reliance on Plasma Gunners and the lack of options to build Scions with Plasma Guns other than the pointing hand option.

Are there any different/new options without having to do too much converting?

Just really not a fan of having multiple squads but all of them having 2 guys with the same pose for Plasmas,,,

Just buy the Space Marine plasma gun set. 5 plasmas that just need a little converting.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can also use all the arms from the medic arm or the flag bearer, maybe.

As Foretold wrote:
Hey all!

I heard the Militarum Tempestus got some love recently and am looking to paint up some Psian Jackals (best color scheme imo).

Now, I am a WYSIWYG player.
The one thing that stopped me from playing the army before was the heavy reliance on Plasma Gunners and the lack of options to build Scions with Plasma Guns other than the pointing hand option.

Are there any different/new options without having to do too much converting?

Just really not a fan of having multiple squads but all of them having 2 guys with the same pose for Plasmas,,,

Unfortunately the Jackals were not given any rules to improve other weapons, so plasma is still king. The Kappic Eagles and the Thetoid Eagles got stuff to improve volley guns, and the Iotan Gorgonnes can drop 5" away, which improves melta.

How much conversion is too much for you? I had exactly the same problem with the stupid scion plasma guns. However, I found a simple conversion. Basically you get some of the metal (resin now?) plasma guns and replace normal hotshots with them. If you keep the trigger mechanism from the hotshot arms it works pretty well.

 Trickstick wrote:
I'm liking the idea of a small detachment of Scions to cause some backfield mischief for my Guard army. Something like Tempestor and two 10 man squads, with 4plasma and 4 melta. Thinking of the Dragons for the extra range, as well as giving the relic pistol to a squad for 11 plasma shots on the drop total. Gorgonnes are also a possibility, for that sweet 5" melta drop and extra shots.

I know melta gets a bad rep but it's a model thing really. Getting plasma Kasrkin these days is expensive, so you work with what you have.

As Foretold wrote:
Hey all!

I heard the Militarum Tempestus got some love recently and am looking to paint up some Psian Jackals (best color scheme imo).

Now, I am a WYSIWYG player.
The one thing that stopped me from playing the army before was the heavy reliance on Plasma Gunners and the lack of options to build Scions with Plasma Guns other than the pointing hand option.

Are there any different/new options without having to do too much converting?

Just really not a fan of having multiple squads but all of them having 2 guys with the same pose for Plasmas,,,

I was also trying to match the classic Kasrkin models and I found the Forge World Hostile Environment Troopers to be a good match. You'll need Cadian bits fo finish them. The backpacks are wrong, but the uniforms, boots, belts, gloves, and especially the helmets and masks are pretty much right on. I added armor to their gloves and knees with green stuff and styrene card, but you could skip that and still pull it off.

Well, these rules are interesting. I think the Dragons are the clear winners here. I would set up my army like this:

-Multiple Battalions (maybe 2, maybe 3 with maxed-size squads)

-MT Squads with no special weapons, 10-man as troops

-MT Command Squads with 4x Plasma Guns

-Warlord with the ignore cover warlord trait

-Someone with Laurels of Command

-Secondary warlord with the Vigilus Drop Force Warlord trait

-Half the army mounted up in Valkyries, half the army in deep strike

The gist of the strategy would be to drop out in clusters to pinpoint specific targets and take them out, while making yourself obnoxious with 10-man squads throwing out 4+ overwatch with the Dragons' stratagem. The main command would be First Rank/Second Rank on the 10-man squads to clear out infantry and MEQ, or Take Aim on a command squad to get them to not get hot on an overcharge.

Biggest Achilles heel of the list competitively would be flyers for sure, especially eldar flyers which plasma is allergic to. Best matchup would be MEQ - a 10-man Dragons squad with FRFSRF and the +1S strat is what, an 80 point unit that deals 9 wounds to MEQ?

BLESSED BOLTGUN
9th Iotan Gorgonnes model equipped with a boltgun only. This Relic replaces a boltgun and has the following profile:

So does this mean Tempestor Primes can have regular Boltguns now? Because they could not before (and the kit does not come with any!).

Overall some really nice stuff, with lots of combinations that look very interesting. Really wish I'd planed to have more scions in my guard army - many GW really knows how to get me to want to buy more stuff!

 Kcalehc wrote:

BLESSED BOLTGUN
9th Iotan Gorgonnes model equipped with a boltgun only. This Relic replaces a boltgun and has the following profile:

So does this mean Tempestor Primes can have regular Boltguns now? Because they could not before (and the kit does not come with any!).

Overall some really nice stuff, with lots of combinations that look very interesting. Really wish I'd planed to have more scions in my guard army - many GW really knows how to get me to want to buy more stuff!

From my understanding, noone can use it. Only Commissars get boltguns, but they can't be Gorgonnes.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Kcalehc wrote:

BLESSED BOLTGUN
9th Iotan Gorgonnes model equipped with a boltgun only. This Relic replaces a boltgun and has the following profile:

So does this mean Tempestor Primes can have regular Boltguns now? Because they could not before (and the kit does not come with any!).

Overall some really nice stuff, with lots of combinations that look very interesting. Really wish I'd planed to have more scions in my guard army - man GW really knows how to get me to want to buy more stuff!

From my understanding, noone can use it. Only Commissars get boltguns, but they can't be Gorgonnes.

That's what I thought, hopefully the book does not leave this as an oversight, and have an item that no one can use.

Quite like the Gorgonnes traits and such myself, not sure about them or the Jackals for my own guys.

i am liking a lot the Lambdan Lions in the MEQ meta, the bonus Ap is good, the relic is useful with a los of -2AP bolters arround, and the WT is very good for plasma spaming. Also the extra AP let us overpass the new tendency of ignoring -1AP & -2AP

Babar_babar wrote:
i am liking a lot the Lambdan Lions in the MEQ meta, the bonus Ap is good, the relic is useful with a los of -2AP bolters arround, and the WT is very good for plasma spaming. Also the extra AP let us overpass the new tendency of ignoring -1AP & -2AP

Certainly my sisters are terrified of facing those buggers. S3 -3 is just what you need to spam to deal with VH. Only so many you can fit under 4++ bubble...

If you're doing a bunch of Valks, Lions or the Eagles getting a bonus to their BS are the best ones. Using Taurox, Jackals are the best one (merely because of the Warlord trait alone). TAC would be Dragons. Seems I have that right maybe?

 Trickstick wrote:

 Kcalehc wrote:

BLESSED BOLTGUN
9th Iotan Gorgonnes model equipped with a boltgun only. This Relic replaces a boltgun and has the following profile:

So does this mean Tempestor Primes can have regular Boltguns now? Because they could not before (and the kit does not come with any!).

Overall some really nice stuff, with lots of combinations that look very interesting. Really wish I'd planed to have more scions in my guard army - many GW really knows how to get me to want to buy more stuff!

From my understanding, noone can use it. Only Commissars get boltguns, but they can't be Gorgonnes.

RAW, you'd be correct.

I want to say they meant for a Commissar/Lord Commissar in a Gorgonnes detachment to be able to take the Blessed Boltgun, and worded the relic wrong because they forgot Commissars don't gain the regiment keyword...

But ... it would be odd as the only regimental relic intended for a non-Tempestus unit, so they also could have totally goofed and thought Tempestor Prime's could take boltguns like Company Commanders... kinda silly that they can't, but that's beside the point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Babar_babar wrote:
i am liking a lot the Lambdan Lions in the MEQ meta, the bonus Ap is good, the relic is useful with a los of -2AP bolters arround, and the WT is very good for plasma spaming. Also the extra AP let us overpass the new tendency of ignoring -1AP & -2AP

Their strategem is also good for scion squads with high shot-counts. A 10-man squad with 36 shots from FRSRF is averaging 4-5 mortal wounds for 1CP.

Point Blank Efficacy is also only 1CP and boosts Lambdan Lasguns/Volleyguns to S4/S5 | AP-3, still only 1 damage — but at BS3+, that's a profile usually reserved for Primaris troops.

Maybe it was meant to replace a Bolt Pistol? With the range it would make sense.

So something I realized, and correct me if I’m wrong, is there’s nothing that stops scions from deploying in another detachments Chimera’s. The transport rule for chimeras only references Astra Militarum infantry models. I think this makes Kapic Eagles a lot more interesting as chimeras are a much more reasonable price for what they bring compared to Taurox primes and valkyries.

Right now I’m looking at a list that brings 3 10 man squads, one in a valk, one in a prime, and one in a chimera. A prime can sit in the chimera and issue orders 24inches out and the valk squad can drop turn one and use tactical misdirection to give the entire army a -1 to hit. You can bring two astropaths in the Valkyrie and give the distraction squad psychic barrier and night shroud. If the distraction squad is in cover they can have a 1+ save and -1 to hit making them tough enough the enemy will waste most of their time one shooting.

Comissar Croc wrote:
So something I realized, and correct me if I’m wrong, is there’s nothing that stops scions from deploying in another detachments Chimera’s. The transport rule for chimeras only references Astra Militarum infantry models. I think this makes Kapic Eagles a lot more interesting as chimeras are a much more reasonable price for what they bring compared to Taurox primes and valkyries.

Right now I’m looking at a list that brings 3 10 man squads, one in a valk, one in a prime, and one in a chimera. A prime can sit in the chimera and issue orders 24inches out and the valk squad can drop turn one and use tactical misdirection to give the entire army a -1 to hit. You can bring two astropaths in the Valkyrie and give the distraction squad psychic barrier and night shroud. If the distraction squad is in cover they can have a 1+ save and -1 to hit making them tough enough the enemy will waste most of their time one shooting.

They're good, only requirement is [Astra militarum infantry]

I tA lot of marine players are going to buy and bring more infilitrators after about their third loss to gorgonnes.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
I tA lot of marine players are going to buy and bring more infilitrators after about their third loss to gorgonnes.

Then they switch to Iotan Dragons, or shoot with Psian Jakals at range.

Alright, so I figured out my prototype for an almost pure list. For gaks and giggles I added Assassins until I can figure out how to best tackle doing anti-tank. 'ere we go:

Battalion: Dragons
x1 Prime w/ Chainsword and Rod, Warlord - ???
x1 Prime w/ Chainsword and Rod
x10 Scions w/ 4 Plasma Guns, Bolt Pistol
x10 Scions w/ 4 Plasma Guns, Bolt Pistol
x10 Scions w/ 4 Plasma Guns, Bolt Pistol
x10 Scions w/ 4 Plasma Guns, Bolt Pistol
x10 Scions w/ 4 Plasma Guns, Bolt Pistol
x10 Scions w/ 4 Plasma Guns, Bolt Pistol

Battalion: Jackals
x1 Prime w/ Chainsword and Rod, Progeny of Conflict for Skilled Trackers
x1 Lord Commissar w/ Power Sword, Bolt Pistol
x1 Inquisitor w/ Inquisitorial Mandate for Esoteric Lore, Blackshroud
x10 Scions w/ 4 Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistol
x10 Scions w/ 4 Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistol
x10 Scions w/ 4 Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistol
x3 Taurox Prime w/ Battle Cannon, Autocannons, Storm Bolter

Vanguard: Assasinorium
x1 Vindicare
x1 Callidus
x1 Eversor
x1 Culexus

I mean, the list is pretty straight forward when you think about it. Taurox w/ Scions, Commissar, Inquisitor, Vindicare, and Eversor will start on the table deployed as necessary, mostly for survival going second. The reason I'm so much for Jackals is because, as we all know, the original Scion tactic was garbage, so it might as well not have existed. Jackals getting the bonus (along with the Culexus) is a bonus, and redeployment is SUPER powerful, almost broken. There should be enough shots at that point to cover hordes that might exist, and then the Dragons will slowly drop down to start hitting the fething crap out of everything (that 6" to the Hotshot is a game changer). The main weakness would be a vehicle skew list, but I'm not exactly worried about Knights to be honest, nor am I worried even about Raven Guard or Iron Hands overall. I had considered switching the Assassins to something allied in for anti-tank and anti-monster. One way to do it is ally in 3 Space Marine Hunters and something to babysit them. That would be one of the few times to EVER consider Salamanders (the reroll wound is good on those, and one of two units that are worth bothering with for Master Artisans) and then maybe remove the Inquisitor for a Salaslamder Captain with those leftover points. Hadn't gone that far into the thinking process so far, I'd still try to keep the Culexus though as that's just a way to really annoy bad opponents.

the_scotsman wrote:
Well, these rules are interesting. I think the Dragons are the clear winners here. I would set up my army like this:

-Multiple Battalions (maybe 2, maybe 3 with maxed-size squads)

-MT Squads with no special weapons, 10-man as troops

-MT Command Squads with 4x Plasma Guns

-Warlord with the ignore cover warlord trait

-Someone with Laurels of Command

-Secondary warlord with the Vigilus Drop Force Warlord trait

-Half the army mounted up in Valkyries, half the army in deep strike

The gist of the strategy would be to drop out in clusters to pinpoint specific targets and take them out, while making yourself obnoxious with 10-man squads throwing out 4+ overwatch with the Dragons' stratagem. The main command would be First Rank/Second Rank on the 10-man squads to clear out infantry and MEQ, or Take Aim on a command squad to get them to not get hot on an overcharge.

Biggest Achilles heel of the list competitively would be flyers for sure, especially eldar flyers which plasma is allergic to. Best matchup would be MEQ - a 10-man Dragons squad with FRFSRF and the +1S strat is what, an 80 point unit that deals 9 wounds to MEQ?

It's worth noting and being prepared for the fact that you won't be able to use the Drop Force detachment if you chose one of the new regiments. Like how you can't use the Imperial Fists one even if you are a successor Chapter.

Kdash wrote:
It's worth noting and being prepared for the fact that you won't be able to use the Drop Force detachment if you chose one of the new regiments. Like how you can't use the Imperial Fists one even if you are a successor Chapter.

I don't believe that is going to be a thing. You don't lose the original Militarum Tempestus keyword, you gain the new <Tempestus Regiment> in addition to it. So the detachment will still be Militarum Tempestus, and have access to the drop force. Unless it is FAQed away of course, which could happen.

 Trickstick wrote:

Kdash wrote:
It's worth noting and being prepared for the fact that you won't be able to use the Drop Force detachment if you chose one of the new regiments. Like how you can't use the Imperial Fists one even if you are a successor Chapter.

I don't believe that is going to be a thing. You don't lose the original Militarum Tempestus keyword, you gain the new <Tempestus Regiment> in addition to it. So the detachment will still be Militarum Tempestus, and have access to the drop force. Unless it is FAQed away of course, which could happen.

No. Unless Scions now get both the Stormtroopers doctrine and one of the new ones, if you take one of the new regimental doctrines, you are technically not taking a Militarum Tempestus detachment till they change it.

 Apple Peel wrote:
No. Unless Scions now get both the Stormtroopers doctrine and one of the new ones, if you take one of the new regimental doctrines, you are technically not taking a Militarum Tempestus detachment till they change it.

I should have known, there is always a random FAQ to worry about.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
No. Unless Scions now get both the Stormtroopers doctrine and one of the new ones, if you take one of the new regimental doctrines, you are technically not taking a Militarum Tempestus detachment till they change it.

I should have known, there is always a random FAQ to worry about.

Be sure to send an email to the FAQ team when the book comes out.

Has anyone considered a Tempestus Battalion with maxed out plasma, backed up by a spearhead detachment of Commissar lending LD9 to 9 mortar teams?

Mortars clear out screens and then the drop troops come down.

This is cheap enough that you could throw in some serious heavy hitters alongside, like a few tanks or a knight and two helverins.

I'm trying to figure out the foundations of a list and build in 500pt blocks.

I just figured out what the blessed bolter does and how it might be legal. "snip" ...The units listed below can be included in a Militarum Tempestus Detachment, despite not having the Militarum Tempestus keyword. In addition, they do not prevent other units in that Detachment from gaining a Regimental Doctrine. Note, however, that the units listed below can never themselves benefit from a Regimental Doctrine. "snip" ...
Several units can take bolters on that list, including an index version of the ministerium priest, and of course a commisar or lord commisar. There is specific wording that permits you to issue the relic bolter to a model in that detachment that being "If your army is led by a Warlord in a Militarum Tempestus Detachment, you can give one of the following Relics to a Character model in a Militarum Tempestus Detachment from your army instead of givin"g them a Relic from Codex: Astra Militarum.

Ergo, any army led by a warlord in a militarum tempestes detachment can issue the bolter relic to a character in that detachment, right? It doesn't say "a regimental doctrine character" ... it just says a character.
Getting a relic isn't the same as benefiting from a doctrine -- the wording is that the auxilla can join the detachment but not get a doctrine, so it seems they can get relics as a model in that detachment (even though they have no doctrine benefit of their own).

Dukeofstuff wrote:
I just figured out what the blessed bolter does and HOW its legal. "snip" ...The units listed below can be included in a Militarum Tempestus Detachment, despite not having the Militarum Tempestus keyword. In addition, they do not prevent other units in that Detachment from gaining a Regimental Doctrine. Note, however, that the units listed below can never themselves benefit from a Regimental Doctrine. "snip" ...
Several units can take bolters on that list, including an index version of the ministerium priest, and of course a commisar or lord commisar. There is specific wording that permits you to issue the relic bolter to a model in that detachment that being "If your army is led by a Warlord in a Militarum Tempestus Detachment, you can give one of the following Relics to a Character model in a Militarum Tempestus Detachment from your army instead of givin"g them a Relic from Codex: Astra Militarum.

Ergo, any army led by a warlord in a militarum tempestes detachment can issue the bolter relic to a character.
Getting a relic isn't the same as benefiting from a doctrine -- the wording is that the auxilla can join the detachment but not get a doctrine, so it seems they can get relics as a model in that detachment (even though they have no doctrine benefit of their own).

Except the relic states "9th Iotan Gorgonnes model equipped with a boltgun only", and none of those models have that faction keyword.

Banville wrote:
Has anyone considered a Tempestus Battalion with maxed out plasma, backed up by a spearhead detachment of Commissar lending LD9 to 9 mortar teams?

Mortars clear out screens and then the drop troops come down.

This is cheap enough that you could throw in some serious heavy hitters alongside, like a few tanks or a knight and two helverins.

I'm trying to figure out the foundations of a list and build in 500pt blocks.

What use the LD9 would be? They are 3 model units so even with 2 casualties odds of running isn't that big deal. Orders to reroll hit would be bigger deal.

Banville wrote:
So what are people's thoughts on Jackals vs Dragoons? They seem like the two stand-out doctrines for what are, effectively glass cannon units.

The only thing about the morale thing is it won't work against fearless stuff. The extra AP trait, I've discounted already as i think Tempestus already have enough AP. Is the extra 6 inch range the one with the most utilty?

Firm disagree on the lions, that extra point of AP is pretty significant, vehicle's and meq's are now on a 6+ save vs hotshots, teq's on a 5+. With plasma teq's are on a 6+ and vehicle's and meq's don't get a save at all. Invun saves don't care yeah, but an awful lot of stuff in this game don't get invuns so your scions are now much more lethal against all of those.

Add on to that their relic and warlord trait are both really good, 5++ aura gives your scions a chance at a second turn of shooting and if you drop them in cover your opponent will have to devote a fair bit of shooting to remove them. Reroll 1's aura frees up orders, affects every unit in 6" and means you can get multiple plasma/melta squads to both reroll 1's and reroll wounds against vehicle's/monsters without having to take the risk with laurels.

AP-3 hotshots and AP-4 plasma also both laugh at valorus hearts sisters and similar "ignore AP" traits.

Also... Does the Lamboan Lions trait give also -1AP to vehicles?

Babar_babar wrote:
Also... Does the Lamboan Lions trait give also -1AP to vehicles?

Yup, anything with the doctrine.

 Trickstick wrote:

Babar_babar wrote:
Also... Does the Lamboan Lions trait give also -1AP to vehicles?

Yup, anything with the doctrine.

That would make gatlin Tauroxes more reliable on killing infantry, with 2HSVG and a heavy sttuber is about 6 wounds to MEQ, 10 to orks, 12 to GEQ... not superbad if you are going full Scions. Some math on the offensive side (I do understand that a lemman is far more thought):

> Lamboan Lions Taurox + 2 HSVG + Gatling + Heavy Stuber: 116 points
> Cadian Leman Russ + Gatling + 3x heavy bolter: 161 points
> Cadian Tank Commander + Gatling + 3x heavy bolter: 196 points

VS MEQ:

Taurox: 6 wounds / 19.33 points per wound (116/6=19.33)
Leman: 6.6 wounds / 24.39 ppw
Comander: 9.2 wounds / 21.30 ppw

VS GEQ:

Taurox: 12 wounds / 9.667 ppw
Leman:12.6 wounds / 12.7778 ppw
Comander: 17.71 wounds / 11.07 ppw

VS ORK:

Taurox: 10 w / 11.6 ppw
Leman: 14 w / 11.5 ppw
Comander: 19.6 w / 10.0 ppw

So it does go pretty good against daka lemans in the offensive (even better when the objective is in cover)

Kdash wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Well, these rules are interesting. I think the Dragons are the clear winners here. I would set up my army like this:

-Multiple Battalions (maybe 2, maybe 3 with maxed-size squads)

-MT Squads with no special weapons, 10-man as troops

-MT Command Squads with 4x Plasma Guns

-Warlord with the ignore cover warlord trait

-Someone with Laurels of Command

-Secondary warlord with the Vigilus Drop Force Warlord trait

-Half the army mounted up in Valkyries, half the army in deep strike

The gist of the strategy would be to drop out in clusters to pinpoint specific targets and take them out, while making yourself obnoxious with 10-man squads throwing out 4+ overwatch with the Dragons' stratagem. The main command would be First Rank/Second Rank on the 10-man squads to clear out infantry and MEQ, or Take Aim on a command squad to get them to not get hot on an overcharge.

Biggest Achilles heel of the list competitively would be flyers for sure, especially eldar flyers which plasma is allergic to. Best matchup would be MEQ - a 10-man Dragons squad with FRFSRF and the +1S strat is what, an 80 point unit that deals 9 wounds to MEQ?

It's worth noting and being prepared for the fact that you won't be able to use the Drop Force detachment if you chose one of the new regiments. Like how you can't use the Imperial Fists one even if you are a successor Chapter.

Not exactly sure what you're talking about. Drop force just requires militarum tempestus , it makes no mention to its <regiment> as a requirement. That'd be like saying you lost the vigilus tank company by taking a custom regiment, when all it really cares about is units with Leman Russ as the keyword.

The thing is, the first point of AP matters a lot more than the second, and that matters more than the third, so on and so forth.

Against a TEQ...

AP0 deals 1/6 damage
AP-1 deals 2/6, or double damage
AP-2 deals 3/6, or a 50% increase
AP-3 deals 4/6, or a 33% increase

It's not useless, unless you're going up against invulns, but it's not as useful as you'd think.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Kdash wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Well, these rules are interesting. I think the Dragons are the clear winners here. I would set up my army like this:

-Multiple Battalions (maybe 2, maybe 3 with maxed-size squads)

-MT Squads with no special weapons, 10-man as troops

-MT Command Squads with 4x Plasma Guns

-Warlord with the ignore cover warlord trait

-Someone with Laurels of Command

-Secondary warlord with the Vigilus Drop Force Warlord trait

-Half the army mounted up in Valkyries, half the army in deep strike

The gist of the strategy would be to drop out in clusters to pinpoint specific targets and take them out, while making yourself obnoxious with 10-man squads throwing out 4+ overwatch with the Dragons' stratagem. The main command would be First Rank/Second Rank on the 10-man squads to clear out infantry and MEQ, or Take Aim on a command squad to get them to not get hot on an overcharge.

Biggest Achilles heel of the list competitively would be flyers for sure, especially eldar flyers which plasma is allergic to. Best matchup would be MEQ - a 10-man Dragons squad with FRFSRF and the +1S strat is what, an 80 point unit that deals 9 wounds to MEQ?

It's worth noting and being prepared for the fact that you won't be able to use the Drop Force detachment if you chose one of the new regiments. Like how you can't use the Imperial Fists one even if you are a successor Chapter.

Not exactly sure what you're talking about. Drop force just requires militarum tempestus , it makes no mention to its <regiment> as a requirement. That'd be like saying you lost the vigilus tank company by taking a custom regiment, when all it really cares about is units with Leman Russ as the keyword.

For the purposes of a TDF, you must have the Stormtroopers doctrine, per Vigilus Defiant FAQ.

So, i decided to go and maths out the different doctrines shooting an overcharged plasma gun at a T8, 3+, 12W model just for a basic point of comparison between the different doctrines. All shots are made in consideration of the following buffs

Reroll 1's
Reroll failed wounds
Doctrine buff

Where appropriate i grouped the regiments together since their buffs are functionally identical on a graph.

https://tinyurl.com/tdvmvjt

Mean wounds per regiment
Kappic Eagles: 2.43
Gorgonnes/Eagles: 2.43
Lambdan Lions: 2.33
Stormtroopers: 2.32
Jackals/Dragons: 1.94

So, unsurprisingly +1 to hit is the most effective buff, followed very closely after by the additional hit regiments. I have to say I'm a little surprised, figured the fact that the lions just outright deny the save would put them a little higher up though it provides a fairly sizeable jump up from the jackals/dragons. Stormtroopers holds up surprisingly well as well. It's interesting to see that there's no real standouts math wise (if you exclude the relatively low chance of gorgonnes/eagles doing 5+ wounds).

Stepping away from the maths hammer for a second though is the fact that you gotta consider delivery methods and means of actually using the doctrines. Personal bias here but i've spent most of 8th playing against alaitoc and other hit modifier bs and have terrible luck with dice in general which leaves me distrustful of abilities 6+ conditional abilities, add on the targeting restrictions both regiments force on you (closest unit and half range) and it makes me hesitant to pick them. Kappic eagle's trait is good but practically will require valkiryes/vendatta's/tauroxes/chimera's to properly leverage which sucks up even more points in the lists and gives your opponent an opportunity to shut down the combo turn 1. Lions and dragons on the other hand always get the benefit of their traits, the extra point of AP on every weapon especially those which had none previously benefits every tempestus unit and you'll always get the benefit of it whatever you're targeting (invuns aside). Likewise the dragons trait may have less relative benefit to shooting but the extra 3"'s of rapid fire range on scion's primary weapon choices adds gives you a lot of flexibility in choosing how you use your scions that's hard to really quantify.

Tl:dr I'm leaning towards Lions/dragons because my rolls are garbage and they're the two least restrictive traits as they don't place limitations on your targeting to take advantage of them or require you to shell out for transports to actually use their trait and thus risk them getting stranded in the wrong part of the board turn 1.

Edit: interestingly enough against TEQ's +1 to hit, +1AP, and 6+ scores additional hits look to be functionally equivalent, all doing 2.52 mean wounds.

The ap bonus isn't that great for plasma. If you take that doctrine volley gun for example is going to be better choise in general. 4 shots, better efficency on doctrine, cheaper, no need to get within 12" so enemy counterpunch isn't that effective.

Lambdan Lions; full squad of 10 with 4 HSVGs. Drop in, use FRFSRF and the Stratagem, getting about 26 shots, looking at averaging 4 (ish) Mortal Wounds on a target. Quite a nasty surprise for someone I think.
Add in the Warlord with the reroll 1's trait, and you might squeeze out another MW potentially.

I'm thinking of potentially switching my Jackals to Lions, but the redeployment is soooooooo good.

Since I already have stat engine set up, here's the rest of the scion special weapons at 9" shooting at T8 3+ save. Buffs as follows

Reroll Ones
Reroll failed wounds
Regimental doctrine
Rapid Fire (where applicable)

Volley Guns (target changed to T4 3+ and reroll failed wounds switched for reroll wound rolls of 1)


Plasma


Melta


And of course, Hotshot lasguns (target changed to T4 3+ and reroll failed wounds switched for FRFSRF)

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

Kdash wrote:
It's worth noting and being prepared for the fact that you won't be able to use the Drop Force detachment if you chose one of the new regiments. Like how you can't use the Imperial Fists one even if you are a successor Chapter.

I don't believe that is going to be a thing. You don't lose the original Militarum Tempestus keyword, you gain the new <Tempestus Regiment> in addition to it. So the detachment will still be Militarum Tempestus, and have access to the drop force. Unless it is FAQed away of course, which could happen.

No. Unless Scions now get both the Stormtroopers doctrine and one of the new ones, if you take one of the new regimental doctrines, you are technically not taking a Militarum Tempestus detachment till they change it.

I'm sure this will be FAQ'd away, but RAW, I think they actually do get both doctrines ... Storm Troopers is an Astra Militarum regimental doctrine, which is technically separate from the new Militarum Tempestus doctrines
That Vigilus FAQ was also made before <Tempestus Regiments> existed, so a FAQ/Errata is going to be needed either way.

But going through the steps, unless there's another FAQ I missed ...

If your army is Battle-forged, all <REGIMENT> units in an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment (excluding those in Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments) gain a Regimental Doctrine, so long as every unit in that Detachment (apart from the exceptions: Militarum Tempestus & Advisors and Auxilla rules) is drawn from the same regiment.

MILITARUM TEMPESTUS units can be included in an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment without preventing other units in that Detachment from gaining a Regimental Doctrine. Note, however, that the MILITARUM TEMPESTUS units do not themselves benefit from any Regimental Doctrine unless every unit in that Detachment is from the Militarum Tempestus (in which case they will gain the Storm Troopers doctrine).

So a pure Militarum Tempestus regiment will gain the <Storm Troopers> regimental doctrine.

Militarum Tempestus units in your army gain the <Tempestus Regiment> keyword. When you include a unit with the <Tempestus Regiment> keyword in your army, you must nominate which Tempestus Regiment it is from, and then replace all instances of the <Tempestus Regiment> keyword on that unit's datasheet with the name of your chosen Tempestus Regiment. If your army contains any units with both the <Regiment> and <Tempestus Regiment> keywords, you must choose a different keyword to replace each of those keywords on those units' datasheets.

If your army is Battle-forged, all <Tempestus Regiment> units in a Militarum Tempestus Detachment gain a Regimental Doctrine selected from those presented above, so long as every unit in that Detachment has the same <Tempestus Regiment> keyword (excluding the Advisors and Auxilla mentioned below).

Now our Militarum Tempestus units gain an additional <Tempestus Regiment> keyword — note that it doesn't say this replaces the Astra Militarum regiment keyword, and in fact specifies if a unit has both <Regiment> and <Tempestus Regiment> keywords, to replace each of those with different keywords — i.e. <Storm Troopers> and <Iotan Dragons> — Storm Troopers is also not a <Tempestus Regiment> keyword.

Now again, surely this will be FAQ'd away, but RAW this seems to be correct, lol.

If it does indeed work that way and we get both or the TDF gets FAQed to work on any Scion regiment, has anyone else realized that an Iotan Dragons Tempestus Drop Force unit would almost be suicide to charge?

1 CP for Drilled to Perfection for the unit to have 4+ Overwatch and 1 CP for Aerial Fire Support from a TDF Valkyrie for 4+ Overwatch.

How do people typically outfit their Valks? I've never really visited the AM Tactica thread and to be honest I don't think I've seen them competitively either...

So let me get this straight, I can bring my Vultures, Thunderbolts, and Avengers to play and be able to use actual Stratagems on them? That hammerblow one would be amazing when combined with a hard hitting unit like a Vulture.

I happen to have 8 taurox primes like some demented madwoman so I will be able to field a robust Eagles force!

Multi-Laser and missile pods is the preferred loadout I believe. Hellstrikes and the lascannon get really hurt by the fact they're 2 shots total at -1 to hit. With advanced countermeasure's and the lascannon dropping in price I guess there's an argument for taking the lascannon at least but you should always take the missile pods.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
So let me get this straight, I can bring my Vultures, Thunderbolts, and Avengers to play and be able to use actual Stratagems on them? That hammerblow one would be amazing when combined with a hard hitting unit like a Vulture.

I happen to have 8 taurox primes like some demented madwoman so I will be able to field a robust Eagles force!

Shame they nerfed the vulture again then, 60 point twin punisher cannon is insane.

 gbghg wrote:
Shame they nerfed the vulture again then, 60 point twin punisher cannon is insane.

Yeah I just can't justify a 205 point Vulture now. Which is a shame, I love the model. The idea of having an advance Guard force with a single piece of air support feels really cool. It was probably the my favourite thing about the controversial novel Flesh and Iron.

 Trickstick wrote:

 gbghg wrote:
Shame they nerfed the vulture again then, 60 point twin punisher cannon is insane.

Yeah I just can't justify a 205 point Vulture now. Which is a shame, I love the model. The idea of having an advance Guard force with a single piece of air support feels really cool. It was probably the my favourite thing about the controversial novel Flesh and Iron.

Might make the quite overcosted Thunderbolt look better. Im reaaaaaaaally hoping that they FAQ or at least fix some of the point costs on the FW weapons because stuff like lascannons and autocannons changed in price for regular guard but not for FW units in Chapter Approved (and on thunderbolts and Avengers it adds up quick). Not to mention it adds quite a bit of points to the much maligned and undeserved nerf ball that is the Vendetta gunship

Although I am in a bit the minority, I load my valks up with twin heavy bolters, multiple rocket pods, and a lascannon, EACH, and make sure they are all in the drop detachment.

I pull off that super overwatch roughly once per game with the 2 to 3 of them I field, but that is not the point. Basically, I have the equivalent of 12 Heavy bolter and 3 lascannon that I can use to clear that one pesky screen I know I want gone before I try to drop next turn, and the valkyries (especially the one with -1 while hovering) can make easy and full use of my astropaths to make all three birds quite resilient by early game standards. With those weapons on the bird, and plasma squads inside, most opponents at least TRY to shoot one down, and it sucks most of their side's fire in about half the time.

But even with 1 woudn left on the bird, it can hover forward 20 inches, disgorge all its troops, fire all its weapons at +1 (so still the equivalent of only 1 bracket) at the ground, and then still overwatch for the ground troops on a 4+ (again, with everything.)

If completely ignored, such a bird is a threat to damaged armor even at very remote locations, just by firing from hover, and they can really wreck infantry's day. (especially by the time three of them are firing in a wing, which is aroudn 36 s5/-1, and starts to really annoy someone whose screens just got scions all over them. The range on those guns, hover mode + central location and stop moving means they can basically pick up the spare, split firing to kill multiple wounded small or mid units all over the board, after the "big drop" hits. It just seems worth the difference in price, which is about 121 to about 147, to give it all that extra capability -- not every army even in this meta is simply marines hiding centurions in cover, and killing a few scouts on turn 1 can be utterly critical to prying open a landing zone on turn 2, and while they are in the thick of things, nothing can bad touch a flyer.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Although I am in a bit the minority, I load my valks up with twin heavy bolters, multiple rocket pods, and a lascannon, EACH, and make sure they are all in the drop detachment.

I pull off that super overwatch roughly once per game with the 2 to 3 of them I field, but that is not the point. Basically, I have the equivalent of 12 Heavy bolter and 3 lascannon that I can use to clear that one pesky screen I know I want gone before I try to drop next turn, and the valkyries (especially the one with -1 while hovering) can make easy and full use of my astropaths to make all three birds quite resilient by early game standards. With those weapons on the bird, and plasma squads inside, most opponents at least TRY to shoot one down, and it sucks most of their side's fire in about half the time.

But even with 1 woudn left on the bird, it can hover forward 20 inches, disgorge all its troops, fire all its weapons at +1 (so still the equivalent of only 1 bracket) at the ground, and then still overwatch for the ground troops on a 4+ (again, with everything.)

If completely ignored, such a bird is a threat to damaged armor even at very remote locations, just by firing from hover, and they can really wreck infantry's day. (especially by the time three of them are firing in a wing, which is aroudn 36 s5/-1, and starts to really annoy someone whose screens just got scions all over them. The range on those guns, hover mode + central location and stop moving means they can basically pick up the spare, split firing to kill multiple wounded small or mid units all over the board, after the "big drop" hits. It just seems worth the difference in price, which is about 121 to about 147, to give it all that extra capability -- not every army even in this meta is simply marines hiding centurions in cover, and killing a few scouts on turn 1 can be utterly critical to prying open a landing zone on turn 2, and while they are in the thick of things, nothing can bad touch a flyer.

Since the - 1 when hovering strat is before the battle can you not pay cps to have all your Valks with Advanced Countermeasures?

Banville wrote:

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Although I am in a bit the minority, I load my valks up with twin heavy bolters, multiple rocket pods, and a lascannon, EACH, and make sure they are all in the drop detachment.

I pull off that super overwatch roughly once per game with the 2 to 3 of them I field, but that is not the point. Basically, I have the equivalent of 12 Heavy bolter and 3 lascannon that I can use to clear that one pesky screen I know I want gone before I try to drop next turn, and the valkyries (especially the one with -1 while hovering) can make easy and full use of my astropaths to make all three birds quite resilient by early game standards. With those weapons on the bird, and plasma squads inside, most opponents at least TRY to shoot one down, and it sucks most of their side's fire in about half the time.

But even with 1 woudn left on the bird, it can hover forward 20 inches, disgorge all its troops, fire all its weapons at +1 (so still the equivalent of only 1 bracket) at the ground, and then still overwatch for the ground troops on a 4+ (again, with everything.)

If completely ignored, such a bird is a threat to damaged armor even at very remote locations, just by firing from hover, and they can really wreck infantry's day. (especially by the time three of them are firing in a wing, which is aroudn 36 s5/-1, and starts to really annoy someone whose screens just got scions all over them. The range on those guns, hover mode + central location and stop moving means they can basically pick up the spare, split firing to kill multiple wounded small or mid units all over the board, after the "big drop" hits. It just seems worth the difference in price, which is about 121 to about 147, to give it all that extra capability -- not every army even in this meta is simply marines hiding centurions in cover, and killing a few scouts on turn 1 can be utterly critical to prying open a landing zone on turn 2, and while they are in the thick of things, nothing can bad touch a flyer.

Since the - 1 when hovering strat is before the battle can you not pay cps to have all your Valks with Advanced Countermeasures?

It doesn't say it's limited to once per battle, so yeah, if it follows the normal pre-game strategem rules then you can pay 1CP per Valkyrie.

Banville wrote:
Since the - 1 when hovering strat is before the battle can you not pay cps to have all your Valks with Advanced Countermeasures?

Yes you can.

 Khorzain wrote:
If you have any feedback or ideas to add to the primer, feel free to let me know, otherwise I welcome discussion on Militarum Tempestus tactics!

I might be missing something but I thought the original storm troopers regimental trait from the codex was still selectable?

Certainly it remains the best choice for Valkrie plasma 'Drop Force' specialist detachments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Khorzain wrote:

Now our Militarum Tempestus units gain an additional <Tempestus Regiment> keyword — note that it doesn't say this replaces the Astra Militarum regiment keyword, and in fact specifies if a unit has both <Regiment> and <Tempestus Regiment> keywords, to replace each of those with different keywords — i.e. <Storm Troopers> and <Iotan Dragons> — Storm Troopers is also not a <Tempestus Regiment> keyword.

Now again, surely this will be FAQ'd away, but RAW this seems to be correct, lol.

Clearly not the intent and I would be laughed at if I tried it at club, but still very funny

(What would you go for - extra hit on 6 and roll dice again to get hit? Or extra range and exploding 6's? )


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How do people typically outfit their Valks? I've never really visited the AM Tactica thread and to be honest I don't think I've seen them competitively either...

They are a fantastic alpha strike, eggs in one basket trick. Some armies slap them down, others curse it.

They have twice won the game for me in turn 1 with the oppo napping on the scenario victory conditions.

I go for the dakka bird - multilaser, rocket launchers (hit on 3+ while moving in the hover) and heavy bolters - at least one gets the heavy bolters to use the overwatch strat, and they all do if I have the points.

If I am playing someone unfamiliar with the force I might load bullgryns into a hellstrike/lascannon bird which scares people more if they haven't seen the plasma hurt before.

Has anyone considered any of the superheavies using the tank ace Strat to give them any of our doctrines and which would be best? I feel like the moral one or the ap -1 could be really strong and kind of thematic. Just imagine a doomhammer firing it's heavy bolters and tremor cannon at a bunch of marines and then just watching them scatter


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ap -2 on 3 twin heavy bolts pretty strong too, not to mention the rediculous ap on the bigger guns.

I don't think that works because Baneblades and the like won't gain the <Tempestus Regiment> keyword as they aren't Militarum Tempestus units.

As far as I can see, MT detachments not only may, but must, have two regimental doctrines - the AM Codex Stormtroopers one plus a Tempestus Regiment doctrine of your choice.
Why?
OK, so MT units have the MT keyword which the AM Codex explains replaces their <regiment> keyword in all cases (p. 84). If the whole detachment has that MT keyword, they gain the Stormtroopers Doctrine (and since they are still an AM detachment by keyword, they can also include Auxilia without losing their doctrine.)
The Psychic Awakening supplement adds (not substitutes) the <Tempestus Regiment> keyword, which MUST be replaced by one of the 6 Tempestus Regiments given in the supplement. However, when they describe the regimental doctrines, guess how many are there? 7. The 6 TR doctrines PLUS Stormtroopers (which is named but references the AM Codex for the rules). The only way for an MT detachment to have the Stormtroopers Doctrine is to have it in addition to another TR doctrine, since every TR detachment MUST replace its <TR> keyword with one of the 6 Tempestus Regiments.

Counter-arguments?

I realise that the big one is likely to be intent, but if their intent was to replace the Stormtroopers Doctrine, why would they reproduce it in the doctrines list?
The other one is that functionally it is nearly identical to some of the TR doctrines and, if it is retained, means that Detachments are likely to 'double up' on additional hits on rolls of 6 (variously unmodified 6s and 6+).

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I don't think that works because Baneblades and the like won't gain the <Tempestus Regiment> keyword as they aren't Militarum Tempestus units.

Right, I didn't the no about that part. Is it worth one CP for any of the other ones? Only one I can think of would be the rerolls for number of shots since the main turret weapons are so swingy

The repair doctrine seems good for baneblades.

hangnailnz wrote:
As far as I can see, MT detachments not only may, but must, have two regimental doctrines - the AM Codex Stormtroopers one plus a Tempestus Regiment doctrine of your choice.
Why?
OK, so MT units have the MT keyword which the AM Codex explains replaces their <regiment> keyword in all cases (p. 84). If the whole detachment has that MT keyword, they gain the Stormtroopers Doctrine (and since they are still an AM detachment by keyword, they can also include Auxilia without losing their doctrine.)
The Psychic Awakening supplement adds (not substitutes) the <Tempestus Regiment> keyword, which MUST be replaced by one of the 6 Tempestus Regiments given in the supplement. However, when they describe the regimental doctrines, guess how many are there? 7. The 6 TR doctrines PLUS Stormtroopers (which is named but references the AM Codex for the rules). The only way for an MT detachment to have the Stormtroopers Doctrine is to have it in addition to another TR doctrine, since every TR detachment MUST replace its <TR> keyword with one of the 6 Tempestus Regiments.

Counter-arguments?

I realise that the big one is likely to be intent, but if their intent was to replace the Stormtroopers Doctrine, why would they reproduce it in the doctrines list?
The other one is that functionally it is nearly identical to some of the TR doctrines and, if it is retained, means that Detachments are likely to 'double up' on additional hits on rolls of 6 (variously unmodified 6s and 6+).

The main counter argument is my opponents would just tell me not to be silly.

Something to remember is how badly written the latest rules are, witness for example the boltgun replacement for a unit that can't take a boltgun (probably means bolt pistol).

What do you guys think of this combo (image linked from Warhammer Community):



Combined with the Killing Zone strategem from Page 69 of Psychic Awakening (+1 to wound against a unit if it lost models from a Scions attack that phase)?

You could give the relic to a Tempestus Prime, have him inflict 2 mortal wounds (assuming he hits), then give +1 to wound to any Scion units shooting at the same target.

EDIT: More combos:

Lambdan Lions Warlord trait (re-roll 1s) combined with First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire! and the Gifts From The Mechanicus strategem on page 69 (wound rolls of 6 inflict 1 mortal wound)? Oh, and Precision Derp:

Wouldn't work, mortal wounds are afflicted on the hit roll not the wound roll. You need non regimental bonuses/rerolls to hit to buff that or just have the tempestor issue take aim on himself.

So the rulebook is out and a few copies in people's hands -- what is the final word on "stormtrooper OR jakals" vs "stormtrooper AND jakals."?
I sort of assume the stormtrooper doctrine being a choice means that its a choice can only be taken one time -- otherwise, would you be "tempestes, militarum" = stormtrooper (from codex) with new keyword "tempester regiment" replaced by stormtrooper AGAIN, giving what? +2 shots every time you get a score up to six? sign my boys up!

Seriously, though, is there a clear "in the ruling" description of the two being raw and not just rai exclusive?

Without double checking the actual RAW, I would classify it as so far out of RAI that it is hardly even worth thinking about. I don't think many people will be happy with the AND interpretation, and I think that if GW doesn't get it in the next FAQ then most events and groups would just ban it.

I think that there is enough ambiguity in the rule to ague it either way though, RAW. I'll leave that to the 73 page YMDC thread that is probably going to appear...

It might actually not stack with itself, but would perhaps allow the jakals to have a drop detachment special group. That is why I am interested in it at all.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
It might actually not stack with itself, but would perhaps allow the jakals to have a drop detachment special group. That is why I am interested in it at all.

I think that oversight will also be high on FAQ priority. Asuming that people email them to ask about it of course.

It is definitely something I would start talking about in my game groups, to see if people will let such an obvious RAI error slide until the inevitable FAQ.

If it did end up being both and not one or the other, a Kappic Eagles Tempestus Drop Force would be super busted. Extra hits on +4. +3 with Aradia Madellan (note that with the new Primaris Psyker and Wyrdvane Psyker interaction stratagem, this become even easier). +2 with that one FW Spotlight, too, right?

 gbghg wrote:
Wouldn't work, mortal wounds are afflicted on the hit roll not the wound roll. You need non regimental bonuses/rerolls to hit to buff that or just have the tempestor issue take aim on himself.

Thanks for replying! I think it could still work, but you'd need an extra Tempestor Prime to issue orders. The Killing Zone strategem only specifies Shooting phase. So one Tempestor Prime armed with the relic Fire of Judgment could inflict a mortal wound, activate the Strategem and another unit could take advantage (presumably with order buffs from another Tempestor).

I think the real fun could be the 133rd Lambdan Lions, though (see my previous post for refresher):

This requires two Tempestor Primes with separate Warlord Traits, one Valkyrie and a full squad of Scions:

Vigilus Detachment: Tempestus Drop Force
Vigilus Warlord Trait: Grav Chute Commando (+1 to hit when deploying out of a Valkyrie).
Regimental Doctrine: Extra -1AP
Regimental Warlord Trait: Re-roll 1s within 6"
Order: First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!
Relic: Laurels of Command (On a 4+, issue a second order of Bring It Down! to re-roll wound rolls of 1.
Stratagem: Gifts From The Mechanicus: Mortal Wounds from Hotshot weapons on wound rolls of 6.
2nd Stratagem: Precision Drop: Deploy from Valkyrie within rapid fire range.
3rd Strategem: Precision Drop (Vigilus): No models slain when deploying out of Valkyrie.

I'm too lazy to do the math, how many mortal wounds does that do (assuming you took a full squad of Scions with max plasma weapons)? Would Volley Guns be better?

As I read that, there's no question wether you gain something additional to Stormtroopers.
Otherwise it would say, they gain the Stormtroopers Doctrine and one of the following in addition (or something like that)

Edit: Just to clarify - in my opinion, they get only one single doctrine

Only thing is so far GW has never given double traits like that to one and one that is literally duplicate.

Seeing how piss poor GW is at writing rules not even understanding basic phases of their own game I wouldn't invest any money on assumption you get double bonuses like that before FAQ comes out(well that's basically good advice for any codex/supplement. Buy no models based on codex before FAQ comes out...)

tneva82 wrote:
Buy no models based on codex before FAQ comes out...

It depends how crazy you are going to go. Buying one or two squads of Scions because they got a new lease of life and look cool? That's fine. Buying a 2000point army with Valkyries based on the precise wording of a rule? Not a good idea.

CrabstuffedMushrooms wrote:

 gbghg wrote:
Wouldn't work, mortal wounds are afflicted on the hit roll not the wound roll. You need non regimental bonuses/rerolls to hit to buff that or just have the tempestor issue take aim on himself.

Thanks for replying! I think it could still work, but you'd need an extra Tempestor Prime to issue orders. The Killing Zone strategem only specifies Shooting phase. So one Tempestor Prime armed with the relic Fire of Judgment could inflict a mortal wound, activate the Strategem and another unit could take advantage (presumably with order buffs from another Tempestor).

I think the real fun could be the 133rd Lambdan Lions, though (see my previous post for refresher):

This requires two Tempestor Primes with separate Warlord Traits, one Valkyrie and a full squad of Scions:

Vigilus Detachment: Tempestus Drop Force
Vigilus Warlord Trait: Grav Chute Commando (+1 to hit when deploying out of a Valkyrie).
Regimental Doctrine: Extra -1AP
Regimental Warlord Trait: Re-roll 1s within 6"
Order: First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!
Relic: Laurels of Command (On a 4+, issue a second order of Bring It Down! to re-roll wound rolls of 1.
Stratagem: Gifts From The Mechanicus: Mortal Wounds from Hotshot weapons on wound rolls of 6.
2nd Stratagem: Precision Drop: Deploy from Valkyrie within rapid fire range.
3rd Strategem: Precision Drop (Vigilus): No models slain when deploying out of Valkyrie.

I'm too lazy to do the math, how many mortal wounds does that do (assuming you took a full squad of Scions with max plasma weapons)? Would Volley Guns be better?

You would get the most value out of a full squad of 9 regular dudes and a tempestor because they generate the most accurate number of shots, but even then with FRFSRF you average 4.5 6's so that's not enough to justify all that cp on traits and stratagems for that one squad.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
So the rulebook is out and a few copies in people's hands -- what is the final word on "stormtrooper OR jakals" vs "stormtrooper AND jakals."?
I sort of assume the stormtrooper doctrine being a choice means that its a choice can only be taken one time -- otherwise, would you be "tempestes, militarum" = stormtrooper (from codex) with new keyword "tempester regiment" replaced by stormtrooper AGAIN, giving what? +2 shots every time you get a score up to six? sign my boys up!

Seriously, though, is there a clear "in the ruling" description of the two being raw and not just rai exclusive?

No, it's not written in a way that is clear, which is why there is so much speculation going on at the moment. They may have tried to specify that you choose either the old Regiment trait or the new Regiment doctrine with the following line, but I'm not sure because it says replace each instead of replace one with the other:

If your army contains any units with both the <Regiment> and <Tempestus Regiment> keywords, you must choose a different keyword to replace each of those keywords on those units' datasheets.

You can read it yourself here on this youtube video, the guy shows the book pretty clearly @1:06:20

Nibbler wrote:

Spoiler:

If your army is Battle-forged, all
<TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> units in a
MILITARUM TEMPESTUS Detachment
gain a Regimental Doctrine selected
from those presented on the page
opposite, so long as every unit in that
Detachment (excluding the Advisors and
Auxilla mentioned below) has the same
<TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> keyword

As I read that, there's no question wether you gain something additional to Stormtroopers.
Otherwise it would say, they gain the Stormtroopers Doctrine and one of the following in addition (or something like that)

Edit: Just to clarify - in my opinion, they get only one single doctrine

That quote is from the Astra Militarum Codex, and was written before the new Tempestus doctrines existed.

But still, I would plan tactics around only having the new doctrines, and if it turns out that we can use both, then we can all go crazy!

tneva82 wrote:
Only thing is so far GW has never given double traits like that to one and one that is literally duplicate.

Seeing how piss poor GW is at writing rules not even understanding basic phases of their own game I wouldn't invest any money on assumption you get double bonuses like that before FAQ comes out(well that's basically good advice for any codex/supplement. Buy no models based on codex before FAQ comes out...)

The Thetoid Eagles isn't a duplicate, it's a better version of Storm Troopers — the new version makes a 6 score two hits, the old doctrine generates an extra shot on a 6 ... so if we had both then on a 6 it'd be 2 hits plus roll an additional shot, which also sounds a little unreasonable lol.

Then again, Space Marines and their Successor Chapters getting Super Doctrines also sounds unreasonable compared to what every other army has to choose from

 Khorzain wrote:

Dukeofstuff wrote:
So the rulebook is out and a few copies in people's hands -- what is the final word on "stormtrooper OR jakals" vs "stormtrooper AND jakals."?
I sort of assume the stormtrooper doctrine being a choice means that its a choice can only be taken one time -- otherwise, would you be "tempestes, militarum" = stormtrooper (from codex) with new keyword "tempester regiment" replaced by stormtrooper AGAIN, giving what? +2 shots every time you get a score up to six? sign my boys up!

Seriously, though, is there a clear "in the ruling" description of the two being raw and not just rai exclusive?

No, it's not written in a way that is clear, which is why there is so much speculation going on at the moment. They may have tried to specify that you choose either the old Regiment trait or the new Regiment doctrine with the following line, but I'm not sure because it says replace each instead of replace one with the other:

If your army contains any units with both the <Regiment> and <Tempestus Regiment> keywords, you must choose a different keyword to replace each of those keywords on those units' datasheets.

Fairly certain that the blurb you're mentioning there is meant for running mixed armies.

The more I keep reading this bit, the more it seems like it is almost certainly intended that you get Stormtroopers and <Tempestus Regiment> keywords, since the <Tempestus Regiment> is added into the keywords for the units and doesn't replace the Militarum Tempestus keyword(which is how you get Stormtroopers in the first place, via an Astra Militarum Detachment being all Militarum Tempestus).

Then again, Space Marines and their Successor Chapters getting Super Doctrines also sounds unreasonable compared to what every other army has to choose from

I'm going to be blunt here:
Space Marines are, as far as they've ever showcased, the only armies that actually have these kinds of pseudo-traditional doctrinal bits and the existence of a shared kind of culture...or in some instances the shifting of an officer corps like we have with the Chapters and their Successors.

I don't know how you could really make a similar system work for other factions without watering them down to be extremely similar to the basic Codex Marines and those two First Founding Chapters that actually have Successors(Blood Angels and Dark Angels) and are still fairly close to Codex Adherent. Space Wolves don't have Successors so that's kind of a nogo zone.

 Khorzain wrote:

Dukeofstuff wrote:
So the rulebook is out and a few copies in people's hands -- what is the final word on "stormtrooper OR jakals" vs "stormtrooper AND jakals."?
I sort of assume the stormtrooper doctrine being a choice means that its a choice can only be taken one time -- otherwise, would you be "tempestes, militarum" = stormtrooper (from codex) with new keyword "tempester regiment" replaced by stormtrooper AGAIN, giving what? +2 shots every time you get a score up to six? sign my boys up!

Seriously, though, is there a clear "in the ruling" description of the two being raw and not just rai exclusive?

No, it's not written in a way that is clear, which is why there is so much speculation going on at the moment. They may have tried to specify that you choose either the old Regiment trait or the new Regiment doctrine with the following line, but I'm not sure because it says replace each instead of replace one with the other:

If your army contains any units with both the <Regiment> and <Tempestus Regiment> keywords, you must choose a different keyword to replace each of those keywords on those units' datasheets.

You can read it yourself here on this youtube video, the guy shows the book pretty clearly @1:06:20

Nibbler wrote:

Spoiler:

If your army is Battle-forged, all
<TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> units in a
MILITARUM TEMPESTUS Detachment
gain a Regimental Doctrine selected
from those presented on the page
opposite, so long as every unit in that
Detachment (excluding the Advisors and
Auxilla mentioned below) has the same
<TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> keyword

As I read that, there's no question wether you gain something additional to Stormtroopers.
Otherwise it would say, they gain the Stormtroopers Doctrine and one of the following in addition (or something like that)

Edit: Just to clarify - in my opinion, they get only one single doctrine

That quote is from the Astra Militarum Codex, and was written before the new Tempestus doctrines existed.

But still, I would plan tactics around only having the new doctrines, and if it turns out that we can use both, then we can all go crazy!

tneva82 wrote:
Only thing is so far GW has never given double traits like that to one and one that is literally duplicate.

Seeing how piss poor GW is at writing rules not even understanding basic phases of their own game I wouldn't invest any money on assumption you get double bonuses like that before FAQ comes out(well that's basically good advice for any codex/supplement. Buy no models based on codex before FAQ comes out...)

The Thetoid Eagles isn't a duplicate, it's a better version of Storm Troopers — the new version makes a 6 score two hits, the old doctrine generates an extra shot on a 6 ... so if we had both then on a 6 it'd be 2 hits plus roll an additional shot, which also sounds a little unreasonable lol.

Then again, Space Marines and their Successor Chapters getting Super Doctrines also sounds unreasonable compared to what every other army has to choose from

I copied my quote directly out of the Psychic Awakening Book...
In my opinion, the question is completely solved.

With GW it's not just what rules say but what GW intended. GW is known for having "oops we didn't intend THAT" errors. They don't even know phases of 40k so they are creating crappy rules. Just becuase rule is RAW clear in book isn't quarantee it's actually how it's going to stay after FAQ comes out.

Ergo you should always wait for FAQ with every book before investing heavily into something. Otherwise you end up with burned up money or effort.

Poor sister players who decided to start converting based on codex only to have wargear option in codex REMOVED with the FAQ(when it came after about 2 months...).

Is there btw any book that hasn't had significant errata to fix rules yet in 40k?

Use it for now but don't invest cash if that cash goes bad if errata goes against it. That's how every single codex/supplement should be approached with GW.

Can we go back to finding cool tactics, please? Assume you can only use one doctrine.

Cool tactic: take valkyrie with lascannon and hellstrike missiles. Apply Advanced Counter-measures stratagem. Repeat as CP and points permit. Hover at back of board, keeping the -1 hit ability, letting you fire at BS 4+ with a +1 to hit. Deepstrike your plasma scions anyway, or run a couple of multilas/missile pod valks to perform drop force grav chute drops with hotshot las/melta/plasma (use the Precision Drop strat to get your melta into optimal range) with the latter being best run by kappic eagles, probably (Kappic Eagles + drop force detachment = +2 to hit)

ryzouken wrote:
Cool tactic: take valkyrie with lascannon and hellstrike missiles. Apply Advanced Counter-measures stratagem. Repeat as CP and points permit. Hover at back of board, keeping the -1 hit ability, letting you fire at BS 4+ with a +1 to hit. Deepstrike your plasma scions anyway, or run a couple of multilas/missile pod valks to perform drop force grav chute drops with hotshot las/melta/plasma (use the Precision Drop strat to get your melta into optimal range) with the latter being best run by kappic eagles, probably (Kappic Eagles + drop force detachment = +2 to hit)

One or the other works as you're BS 3+ so you'll hit most things in the game on a 2+ anyways. I prefer Kappic Eagles to other regiments+drop force as your opponent can just kill the valk your warlord is in and then he's pointless and you wasted a cp on the drop force. I run 2 valks with full squads with 4 plasma and I find the kappic's relic is pretty useful. The plasma does some big boy damage on the drop and then you have 20 guys supported by valks creating another front your opponent has to deal with. However, going with what i was saying, if your opponent shoots down the valk with your warlord, you still have another one that hasn't lost any of its power.

I mentioned the drop formation as it can be useful for targeting GK tide of shadows characters or supersonic flyers and the like. You're right that you don't need the extra +1 hit against a typical predator tank in the open, but it is nice to remember for those pesky -1 hit abilities that everyone seems to have

ryzouken wrote:
I mentioned the drop formation as it can be useful for targeting GK tide of shadows characters or supersonic flyers and the like. You're right that you don't need the extra +1 hit against a typical predator tank in the open, but it is nice to remember for those pesky -1 hit abilities that everyone seems to have

thats true but I think I'd rather spend my cp on stuff like a tank ace and a WL with Old Grudges or Grand Strategist. Seems like too many eggs in that one basket, handle might break lol. However, if you get first turn it would be stringer than just the Kappic Eagles. I guess its how you feel about a coin flip.

Against Tide of Shadows, you'll probably want the bonus AP dudes.

Tide of shadows? You smile and take 6+ inch range doctrine and fire everything at short range, -1 is a 1/4ish miss rate (3+ becomes 4+) but overall its 1.5 times the hit rate. This neatly offsets any cover bonus -- and a few path divining astropaths can make that go away too.

Played against Grey Knights last night.
They are nearly impossible to crack with plasma.

A unit of 10 paladins ate two full rounds of shooting.
It's not just tide, it's that plus trans human phys, (so only wounding on 4s), and -1 damage strat, against 4+ invuls.

My list blew Mechanised eldar off the table, but truly struggled against the Knights.

Paladins are absolutely something that can be only countered by high RoF high AP weapons.

Sounds like HSVGs would be pretty solid, then.

 catbarf wrote:
Sounds like HSVGs would be pretty solid, then.

Bingo. 3 Command squads jumping out a Valk + a full Dragons squad w/ Volleys would be able to force a decent amount of wounds on them. This requires specific Traits or Strats though to make the most of it. Full Dragon squad gets point blank efficacy for Strat efficiency.

Point blank isn't helping when they use Transhuman, their invuls don't care about your AP. According to mathhammer, 64 HSVG shots, with re-roll 1 to hits and wounds will kill 3 (9.7W).

6 Plasma guns in rapid fire with re-roll hits and wounds do about 2 wounds.

All I'm saying is don't get cocky. Grey Knight Paladins, properly supported with Sanctuary, Transhuman Phys, Shadow tide, and redoubtable defense are quite possibly the tankiest unit on the table.

Bluflash wrote:
Point blank isn't helping when they use Transhuman, their invuls don't care about your AP. According to mathhammer, 64 HSVG shots, with re-roll 1 to hits and wounds will kill 3 (9.7W).

6 Plasma guns in rapid fire with re-roll hits and wounds do about 2 wounds.

All I'm saying is don't get cocky. Grey Knight Paladins, properly supported with Sanctuary, Transhuman Phys, Shadow tide, and redoubtable defense are quite possibly the tankiest unit on the table.

Wouldn't point black efficacy be perfect then? You now wound on 4's instead of 5's which isnt affected by transhuman, and our -2 ap brings their 2+ armour up to their 4++ invuln. Isn't that perfect value?

Sounds like Kappic Eagles would be better. No -1 to HSVG, extra +1 to hit when disembarking. The recipe for as many shots as you can get. You can get +1s from point-blank efficacy, and +1 to wound from killing zone if you kill one.

You say that point-blank doesn't help with transhuman. However, if you don't use it and just fire HSVGs, then they don't have to use it. You are using 1cp to force them to use 2cp.

I've been leaning towards Kappic Eagles as thats the way I run my scions, valks and tauroxes with HSVG and plasma guns. Is their maybe an argument for the jackles? If you manage to kill 4 thats an auto failed morale, and each guy running is a crazy amount of points which forces them to auto-pass for 2 cp plus whatever other stratagems they used to help keep them alive.

Jackals seem meta dependant. Some armies just don't care about morale. If that is all you face, they are a bit bad.

Note that when I have used point blank efficacy, I have used it to make a 9 man hotshotlasgun group (the sgt's pistol is unaffected) suddenly each fire as well as a hsvg -- s4/-2/1 ... and 4 shots in short range with "fire twice" order.
It turns one 70 point squad into the firepower of rouhgly 2 squads with 8 hotshot volleyguns, against one target for one round. Its a much cheaper "bust a screen" element and much nicer as something you fear the marines are going to auspex scan out of the way anyhow. When used on such a squad, none of its effects are lost against most targets. Its a good "drop in close" unit for the gorgonnes to use, 6 inches closer than the main drop line.

 Trickstick wrote:
Jackals seem meta dependant. Some armies just don't care about morale. If that is all you face, they are a bit bad.

I mean there arent really that many that just completely ignore morale. Orks might even fail if you kill 15 from a blob thats 30 casualties. Even necrons fail morale when you kill 5. All the lists that dont worry about it including Marines and Grey Knights will have to worry about it. Aren't Nids the only truely fearless faction? (and Death Korps)

You will find that the jakals effects have a weak point -- you don't CARE if you wipe completely a 5 man scout in the backfield, but you care deeply if the enemy centurions make morale. However, your offense is signifciantly weaker than other doctrines, and you hand your enemy a few star stratagems to autopass that HE gets to pick which unit ignores your entire bag of tricks. So you might blow two command points, but oyu are left with your fragile little scions sucking back the full firepower of the other half of his centurion squads.

Also note that the language of the warlord trait (or backup warlord trait) "old grudges" plays VERY well against transhuman physiology, the one says you can reroll all your failed wound rolls, the other says that 1,2,3 allways fail as wound rolls (but does not preclude rerolls, as a result, and aha, rerolls apply to failed rolls!)
I almost always include that warlord trait in my army to deal with ... something? One big thing I need to wipe of I lose half my troops, one big target I want gone. Its underrated in most discussions!

Hi guys! I wanted to start a 1000 points scion army but i am not sure how strong it will be on table...
The list: 3-valkyries (121-point each), 2 primes, 2-10 scions with 4 plasma and 1-10 scions with lasguns as first turn drop(lasguns uses precision drop and shot on screen/infantry, plasma scion shoot vehicle). In reserves 1 command squad with 4 plasma, 1-10 scions with lasguns and another 10 men squad with 4 plasma.
All this as kappic eagles doctrine.
What do you think? Is this will be enough to eliminate or seriously cripple enemy? Because im afraid that this force in practice will do low or mediocre damage and will complete destroyed in opponent turn... So need your help!)

MrDot wrote:
Hi guys! I wanted to start a 1000 points scion army but i am not sure how strong it will be on table...
The list: 3-valkyries (121-point each), 2 primes, 2-10 scions with 4 plasma and 1-10 scions with lasguns as first turn drop(lasguns uses precision drop and shot on screen/infantry, plasma scion shoot vehicle). In reserves 1 command squad with 4 plasma, 1-10 scions with lasguns and another 10 men squad with 4 plasma.
All this as kappic eagles doctrine.
What do you think? Is this will be enough to eliminate or seriously cripple enemy? Because im afraid that this force in practice will do low or mediocre damage and will complete destroyed in opponent turn... So need your help!)

It's quite strong for 1000pts, it is very mobile. It's fairly advanced however, you might be better considering bullgryns for staying power or ratlings to camp objectives and counter characters. It does feel like GW are trying to move towards more diversity than auto-take plasma, so you may find that the situations for the volleyguns (already improved) or other weapons improve this year.

Yep but i still don't see the situation when it better to take HSVG than plasma. Against MEQ-plasma better. Against hordes-lasgun in rapid fire stronger. If HSVG will be Rapid Fire 3 it will be quite more impressive! Maybe too strong ofcource... Yes HSVG a much cheaper than plasma but effective like it? I dont think so.

HSVG has a better range, with full shots up to 24" instead of 12". I still don't think they are worth it without the Kappic Eagles doctrine.

MrDot wrote:
Yep but i still don't see the situation when it better to take HSVG than plasma. Against MEQ-plasma better. Against hordes-lasgun in rapid fire stronger. If HSVG will be Rapid Fire 3 it will be quite more impressive! Maybe too strong ofcource... Yes HSVG a much cheaper than plasma but effective like it? I dont think so.

When the D2 doesn't matter or you need lots of shots. I haven't mathed out vs Paladins earlier, but with the Strat to take off damage and wounding, Volleys SHOULD be putting out more wounds, but not by much.
I can math that out on my lunch unless someone else wants to do it.

Consider throwing in an astropath to that list, if only to fire off a malstrom a turn (he almost always makes his 15 points back) and especailly for those cases where ap-2 is struggling to overcome cover. Eliminators with cover stripped off them are just dead marines, for example, and the heavy infantry centurions in cover can be pushed back up to 4+ from 3+ against hotshots, which is a huge improvement in raw damage being put down. 4+ to 5+ for plasma isn't bad, either! Only 2 plasma guns per game need to hit for an astropath to pay off.

And. You have 3 valkyries there who are firing some 36 heavy bolter shots a roudn. AP-1 benefits greatly from an astropath stripping cover from their targets (36>18>12 saves = +2 wounds dealt per turn, if no cover because of the astropath).Make astro pathr the second a -1 to be hit spell, a valkyrie a -2 to be hit is a real annoyance to an enemy, it can be used to keep them from easily blowing the wounded birds up in later rounds.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Consider throwing in an astropath to that list, if only to fire off a malstrom a turn (he almost always makes his 15 points back) and especailly for those cases where ap-2 is struggling to overcome cover. Eliminators with cover stripped off them are just dead marines, for example, and the heavy infantry centurions in cover can be pushed back up to 4+ from 3+ against hotshots, which is a huge improvement in raw damage being put down. 4+ to 5+ for plasma isn't bad, either! Only 2 plasma guns per game need to hit for an astropath to pay off.

And. You have 3 valkyries there who are firing some 36 heavy bolter shots a roudn. AP-1 benefits greatly from an astropath stripping cover from their targets (36>18>12 saves = +2 wounds dealt per turn, if no cover because of the astropath).Make astro pathr the second a -1 to be hit spell, a valkyrie a -2 to be hit is a real annoyance to an enemy, it can be used to keep them from easily blowing the wounded birds up in later rounds.

That's all sounds good but the list is 999 points! So need to remove scions to add bolters and astropath. Unfortunately basic bs on Valkyrie is 4+ so i don't think they will do much damage... And as i said before i really afraid of that this list will do low damage and be destroyed in opponent turn... So i dont know what to change! Maybe pick only two Valkyries and on saved points took more command squads and scions... I dont know)
Maybe someones already played mono scions with new rules. Whats the results? How it going? What do you use? Maybe kappic eagles not so strong as i thought but wt and stratagem really exited me)

Strictly speaking, my list ain't PURE scion, I have some psykers and 2 or 3 indirect fire artillery each time. 3 detachments, 45 scion troop choice, 12 scion command squads, and 2 (or 3) valkyries each time.
Its close enough I reckon I can speak to your question, though.
I have been using different doctrines to see what is good and bad, over the last 5 games.

kappic eagles are nice but they also suck, because their sixes don't proc extra hits.
stormtrooper classic is much stronger when you make a drop field commander to give your sunday drop a +1 to hit (which is all kappic doctrine really gets you that's useful). You don't have to care exactly where each squad sits, becuase there isn't the io drag "closest enemy" in play.

kappic eagles drop 3 command squads and 2 10 man squads with 4 plasma each. I assume you don't bring yarrik (I always do!) for the 1 rerolls, so yeah, you get orders to emulate that OR orders to execution protocol sanction..
just counting plasma, you fire 12+8=20x2 at short range so you expect to hit with basically 39 of them, because +1 at disembark and orders to reroll 1's. You spend no CP for that, but it lacks the explosive power of the overload that scions need to rubble their opposition before return fire. Congrats, it saves 2 cp against the best option, but you can also allways lose if you don't spend cp to make the game go your way.

The best are...
Classic stormtroopers in a drop detachment with the same models doing the same stuff fires 20 plasma at short range with a +1 (from the field commander) and all their 5 and 6 rolls become EXTRA shots that ALSO hit on a 2+ and reroll 1's.
So their 40 shots hit 39 times as well, and then hit another 13 or so times.extra. Dead things don't shoot back, greatly enhancing the chances your little strike force will have a few survivors to fire again -- or to load frantically in the transports and repeat the drop. Sure, you are down 2 cp at the start, but its worth it. Care must be taken to place dropping troops so that second, third, etc firing units still have a priority target in short range. This is situational!

Similar, but differently best
iotan dragonnes have a middle place in my experience -- you blew up that enemy landraider that was shielding 5 centurrions from your guns? iotan dragons may be firing at longer range to hti the exited cents, but if they are still closest, a six is 2 hits, and its 2 hits even if you are shooting something with a minus. Situationally just as strong across the board, if that makes sense, and even slightly augmented by the ability to zip a 10 man in from deepstrike right beside a screen. This doesn't cost 2 cp to start, sure, but it does give similar benefits that will leave you carefully measuring each drop in your line to get the bonus. You can lose that bonus if your cagey opponent starts pulling troops to make your next shooter further away, too, which is another annoyance, or the unit you wiped out was the one you set your stuff to be closest to, and you are now stuck shooting something that is slightly behind a screen of firewarriors, so no extra hits. But again, situational.

The absolute worst
I played a game against space marines with the stupid jakals, in the entire game, ONE primaris more died from morale effecs, and I cost my opponent 4 cp in saves that he didn't really miss. The autopass strategem means the jakals effects underperform when it counts, and your opponent decides when that important unit ignores morale, you don't get to decide when that important unit pays attention to it. It would be great against hordes but nobody seems to be playing hordes -- maybe one game in 10 or 15 someoen breaks out the orcs. Care is only taken to be in short range, and I didn't like this doctrine at all.

Perhaps it colors my view of this that one of the last 5 games I played was against grey knights (and I shut down about half his psykers each turn!) .. and several against marines (each had at least one librarian ticking along) .. but at ;east 1 astropath was just a good all around investment, just a few denials and malstroms and cover saves removed, and you are looking at a dead centurion on the enemy side and a live squad on your side.

Valkyries with 1 cp spent (the strat) can be afforded -1 to be hit even while hovering, which shifts their bs to 3+. And ANY fire they take is not slaughtering delicate scions! I run mine as 2 mrp/2hb/1lascannon and it has been working, although I usually run only 2 or 3 in a 2000 point list. They are not useless in the drop detachment with stormtroopers doctrine specifically, because they can overwatch on behalf of oyur troops at a 4+, which is another feature that blows a CP but is unavailable to the eagles and iotans.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Strictly speaking, my list ain't PURE scion, I have some psykers and 2 or 3 indirect fire artillery each time. 3 detachments, 45 scion troop choice, 12 scion command squads, and 2 (or 3) valkyries each time.
Its close enough I reckon I can speak to your question, though.
I have been using different doctrines to see what is good and bad, over the last 5 games.

kappic eagles are nice but they also suck, because their sixes don't proc extra hits.
stormtrooper classic is much stronger when you make a drop field commander to give your sunday drop a +1 to hit (which is all kappic doctrine really gets you that's useful). You don't have to care exactly where each squad sits, becuase there isn't the io drag "closest enemy" in play.

kappic eagles drop 3 command squads and 2 10 man squads with 4 plasma each. I assume you don't bring yarrik (I always do!) for the 1 rerolls, so yeah, you get orders to emulate that OR orders to execution protocol sanction..
just counting plasma, you fire 12+8=20x2 at short range so you expect to hit with basically 39 of them, because +1 at disembark and orders to reroll 1's. You spend no CP for that, but it lacks the explosive power of the overload that scions need to rubble their opposition before return fire. Congrats, it saves 2 cp against the best option, but you can also allways lose if you don't spend cp to make the game go your way.

The best are...
Classic stormtroopers in a drop detachment with the same models doing the same stuff fires 20 plasma at short range with a +1 (from the field commander) and all their 5 and 6 rolls become EXTRA shots that ALSO hit on a 2+ and reroll 1's.
So their 40 shots hit 39 times as well, and then hit another 13 or so times.extra. Dead things don't shoot back, greatly enhancing the chances your little strike force will have a few survivors to fire again -- or to load frantically in the transports and repeat the drop. Sure, you are down 2 cp at the start, but its worth it. Care must be taken to place dropping troops so that second, third, etc firing units still have a priority target in short range. This is situational!

Similar, but differently best
iotan dragonnes have a middle place in my experience -- you blew up that enemy landraider that was shielding 5 centurrions from your guns? iotan dragons may be firing at longer range to hti the exited cents, but if they are still closest, a six is 2 hits, and its 2 hits even if you are shooting something with a minus. Situationally just as strong across the board, if that makes sense, and even slightly augmented by the ability to zip a 10 man in from deepstrike right beside a screen. This doesn't cost 2 cp to start, sure, but it does give similar benefits that will leave you carefully measuring each drop in your line to get the bonus. You can lose that bonus if your cagey opponent starts pulling troops to make your next shooter further away, too, which is another annoyance, or the unit you wiped out was the one you set your stuff to be closest to, and you are now stuck shooting something that is slightly behind a screen of firewarriors, so no extra hits. But again, situational.

The absolute worst
I played a game against space marines with the stupid jakals, in the entire game, ONE primaris more died from morale effecs, and I cost my opponent 4 cp in saves that he didn't really miss. The autopass strategem means the jakals effects underperform when it counts, and your opponent decides when that important unit ignores morale, you don't get to decide when that important unit pays attention to it. It would be great against hordes but nobody seems to be playing hordes -- maybe one game in 10 or 15 someoen breaks out the orcs. Care is only taken to be in short range, and I didn't like this doctrine at all.

Perhaps it colors my view of this that one of the last 5 games I played was against grey knights (and I shut down about half his psykers each turn!) .. and several against marines (each had at least one librarian ticking along) .. but at ;east 1 astropath was just a good all around investment, just a few denials and malstroms and cover saves removed, and you are looking at a dead centurion on the enemy side and a live squad on your side.

Valkyries with 1 cp spent (the strat) can be afforded -1 to be hit even while hovering, which shifts their bs to 3+. And ANY fire they take is not slaughtering delicate scions! I run mine as 2 mrp/2hb/1lascannon and it has been working, although I usually run only 2 or 3 in a 2000 point list. They are not useless in the drop detachment with stormtroopers doctrine specifically, because they can overwatch on behalf of oyur troops at a 4+, which is another feature that blows a CP but is unavailable to the eagles and iotans.

Thank you for detailed answer!
Yes you right i really rely on orders and for prime i will chose laurels of command and extra 24 range. And how kappic eagles stratagem works in game? Does it do impact on the game or it is complete trash? Because in theory it can boost your durability but whats on practice...
So thank you a lot again!
Will wait another answer from experienced players)

MrDot wrote:
Yep but i still don't see the situation when it better to take HSVG than plasma. Against MEQ-plasma better. Against hordes-lasgun in rapid fire stronger. If HSVG will be Rapid Fire 3 it will be quite more impressive! Maybe too strong ofcource... Yes HSVG a much cheaper than plasma but effective like it? I dont think so.

 Trickstick wrote:
HSVG has a better range, with full shots up to 24" instead of 12". I still don't think they are worth it without the Kappic Eagles doctrine.

IMO the main argument in favor of HSVGs is flexibility. They can't be mitigated by stratagems or abilities that reduce Damage or put caps on your to-wound, they have the range to drop them on an objective (or outside Auspex range) but still be able to contribute at full effectiveness, and they have both volume of fire to kill one-wound models effectively and AP to hurt bigger stuff. You don't need to burn an order to keep them from killing themselves or to get maximum firepower, which in turn means that they can be given the Tempestus special order to re-roll failed wounds against vehicles/monsters, making them actually better than plasma guns against T7/3+ vehicles outside of rapid fire range. They're also half the price of plasma to boot.

In an army that is otherwise heavily incentivized to get within half range, on weapons that are fairly short-ranged to begin with, getting full effectiveness out to 24" is pretty handy. I use a unit of 10 Scions with 4 HSVGs as midfield objective-grabbers; they're not wasting their weapons if they have to hang back, and they actually get to return fire effectively against enemies outside of 9/12".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dukeofstuff wrote:
because they can overwatch on behalf of oyur troops at a 4+, which is another feature that blows a CP but is unavailable to the eagles and iotans.

Can you elaborate? As far as I understand it, taking one of the new regiments replaces the newly-added [TEMPESTUS REGIMENT] keyword, not [MILITARUM TEMPESTUS], so you can still take either regiment in a Drop Force.

 catbarf wrote:
Can you elaborate? As far as I understand it, taking one of the new regiments replaces the newly-added [TEMPESTUS REGIMENT] keyword, not [MILITARUM TEMPESTUS], so you can still take either regiment in a Drop Force.

There is currently a weird quirk in the rules. To use the drop force you need to be in a militarum tempestus detachment. However, this term is not defined in the rules. They fixed this in an faq with this:

Q: For the purposes of the Tempestus Drop Force Specialist Detachment, what is a MILITARUM TEMPESTUS Detachment?
A: A MILITARUM TEMPESTUS Detachment is an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment that has the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine.

However, this doesn't work with the new doctrines, and will need a new FAQ. I know that RAI is totally that you can use the new doctrines, but technically it doesn't work.

Well raw they have both stormtrooper doctrine and new one...which is also crazy. as usual need FAQ. Is there single book release that doesnt' desperately need FAQ right away?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bluflash wrote:
Point blank isn't helping when they use Transhuman, their invuls don't care about your AP. According to mathhammer, 64 HSVG shots, with re-roll 1 to hits and wounds will kill 3 (9.7W).

6 Plasma guns in rapid fire with re-roll hits and wounds do about 2 wounds.

All I'm saying is don't get cocky. Grey Knight Paladins, properly supported with Sanctuary, Transhuman Phys, Shadow tide, and redoubtable defense are quite possibly the tankiest unit on the table.

They are also one expensive unit. Trigger transhuman, switch to others killing them and stay hell away from them.

Especially outside ITC expensive solo units lose lots of power as no kill unit/kill more to go for. No surprise with real 40k vs home brewed.

No, there is not. GW is incredibly lazy and just tells us to fix it ourselves. They don't bother to look at the rules they wrote when writing new ones.

Or maybe it is that writing a game system is really complicated. Of course, GW let's too many mistakes through for my liking and could do a lot better. However, I think they are better than "incredibly lazy".

 Trickstick wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
Can you elaborate? As far as I understand it, taking one of the new regiments replaces the newly-added [TEMPESTUS REGIMENT] keyword, not [MILITARUM TEMPESTUS], so you can still take either regiment in a Drop Force.

There is currently a weird quirk in the rules. To use the drop force you need to be in a militarum tempestus detachment. However, this term is not defined in the rules. They fixed this in an faq with this:

Q: For the purposes of the Tempestus Drop Force Specialist Detachment, what is a MILITARUM TEMPESTUS Detachment?
A: A MILITARUM TEMPESTUS Detachment is an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment that has the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine.

However, this doesn't work with the new doctrines, and will need a new FAQ. I know that RAI is totally that you can use the new doctrines, but technically it doesn't work.

Oh, thanks for the clarification.

It occurs to me that, RAW, you could take a normal Astra Militarum detachment (full of non-Tempestus units), give them your own regiment name, and select Storm Troopers as their regimental doctrine.

Behold, a certified Militarum Tempestus Detachment. A++ rules clarification would FAQ again.

Is that actually legal? If so, Basilisks would be kinda funny, and dropping Vets + Special Weapon squads from Valks would be entertaining enough.

tneva82 wrote:
Well raw they have both stormtrooper doctrine and new one...which is also crazy. as usual need FAQ. Is there single book release that doesnt' desperately need FAQ right away?

No, they don't get both doctrines. You pick one of the doctrines on page 65, as per the text on page 64 which says you pick a doctrine on the next page (65). Since Stormtroopers is listed, that means you only get it if you pick it at this stage of army building.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


Has anyone math hammered the number of kills against MEQ one gets for a pure squad of Iotan Dragons firing only Hotshot lasguns with FRFSRF giving them 4 shots each within 12 inches vs 4 plasma guns and 1 plasma pistol?

And then compare it too the Stormtroopers doctrine and the Kappic Eagles with HSVGs and plasma's respectively????

According to my prelim numbers against MEQ 9 hotshot lasguns shooting 4 times gives you roughly the same number of kills as the 5 hotshot/4 plasma option ( for dragons). I'm trying to figure out the bonus hits now for Stormtroopers...

General Hobbs wrote:

No, they don't get both doctrines. You pick one of the doctrines on page 65, as per the text on page 64 which says you pick a doctrine on the next page (65). Since Stormtroopers is listed, that means you only get it if you pick it at this stage of army building.

You're still an Astra Militarum detachment, and still have the <REGIMENT> keyword (Codex:AM has an explicit statement that <MILITARUM TEMPESTUS> is considered to be <REGIMENT> for all rules purposes, but cannot be given to non <MILITARUM TEMPESTUS> units), which allows for basic regimental doctrines to be taken. Storm Troopers is one such doctrine, and does not conflict with the <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> abilities (because the latter is a keyword that is gained, not one that replaces the underlying <REGIMENT> ). The mechanical rule interaction is quite clear, and results in both Storm Troopers and an additional Tempestus Regiment doctrine activating. Whether its intended is another matter entirely.

But then you are taking two doctrines from the list, where the rules say you can take one.

 Trickstick wrote:
But then you are taking two doctrines from the list, where the rules say you can take one.

They're two separate lists, with explicitly exclusive requirements and bonuses.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
But then you are taking two doctrines from the list, where the rules say you can take one.

They're two separate lists, with explicitly exclusive requirements and bonuses.

Pretty sure you can only use the most recent set of rules. The PA book ones are more recent than the AM codex, thus override it.

And upon reading it, it appears that you cannot take Storm Troopers at all anyway. It says you must nominate which regiment its from for the <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> keyword, and you can only choose from the 6 listed to replace it. As Storm Troopers is not on that list, you can't choose it from the page opposite, as its not a valid choice for any of those regiments.

Re-reading it a second time, as I type, I realize you can in fact take any Doctrine from the list, even if it does not match the <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> name you chose, as it does not say that it must be that way. In AM codex it says you must if CADIAN take "Born soldiers" the same is not true here; if you choose 54TH PSIAN JACKALS you are not forced to choose "Death from the Dark" as your doctrine. So Storm Troopers is an option, for any Regiment; but you still only get to pick one! Its very poorly written/explained.

Mostly I think we expect it to work the same as the base Codex, but it really does not RAW actually say that. It probably should though.

 Kcalehc wrote:


Pretty sure you can only use the most recent set of rules. The PA book ones are more recent than the AM codex, thus override it.

And upon reading it, it appears that you cannot take Storm Troopers at all anyway. It says you must nominate which regiment its from for the <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> keyword, and you can only choose from the 6 listed to replace it. As Storm Troopers is not on that list, you can't choose it from the page opposite, as its not a valid choice for any of those regiments.

Re-reading it a second time, as I type, I realize you can in fact take any Doctrine from the list, even if it does not match the <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> name you chose, as it does not say that it must be that way. In AM codex it says you must if CADIAN take "Born soldiers" the same is not true here; if you choose 54TH PSIAN JACKALS you are not forced to choose "Death from the Dark" as your doctrine. So Storm Troopers is an option, for any Regiment; but you still only get to pick one! Its very poorly written/explained.

Mostly I think we expect it to work the same as the base Codex, but it really does not RAW actually say that. It probably should though.

Following this logic, any non-Militarum Tempestus detachment that isnt running a custom doctrine is incapable of gaining a doctrine, and cannot use its custom orders since they do not appear in PA5. Which we both know is inaccurate.

Codex:AM is still a valid source, and provides explicit details on how <ASTRA MILITARUM> keyworded units gain Doctrines. Nothing in PA5 changes those pre-requisites. Unless you want to put forth the argument that a player running from a supplement somehow loses the ability to use their parent codex?

Sterling191 wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:

No, they don't get both doctrines. You pick one of the doctrines on page 65, as per the text on page 64 which says you pick a doctrine on the next page (65). Since Stormtroopers is listed, that means you only get it if you pick it at this stage of army building.

You're still an Astra Militarum detachment, and still have the <REGIMENT> keyword (Codex:AM has an explicit statement that <MILITARUM TEMPESTUS> is considered to be <REGIMENT> for all rules purposes, but cannot be given to non <MILITARUM TEMPESTUS> units), which allows for basic regimental doctrines to be taken. Storm Troopers is one such doctrine, and does not conflict with the <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> abilities (because the latter is a keyword that is gained, not one that replaces the underlying <REGIMENT> ). The mechanical rule interaction is quite clear, and results in both Storm Troopers and an additional Tempestus Regiment doctrine activating. Whether its intended is another matter entirely.

Clearly a mistake on their part, and we will see if it is FAQ'd in a week or so.

How are Taurox Primes now? Are they worth taking?

I ask because I need to get around 32 Scion legs and torsos to use with my Cadian Hostile Environment upgrade packs to make into Kasrkin, and my FLGS has two of the Start Collecting boxes for Scions. I don't need the Commissars, and I'd only be interested in the Tauroxes if they're worth bringing.

Arcanis161 wrote:
How are Taurox Primes now? Are they worth taking?

I ask because I need to get around 32 Scion legs and torsos to use with my Cadian Hostile Environment upgrade packs to make into Kasrkin, and my FLGS has two of the Start Collecting boxes for Scions. I don't need the Commissars, and I'd only be interested in the Tauroxes if they're worth bringing.

They're probably best in a detachment with the scion extra ap trait since it makes their gatling cannons a lot scarier and it gives the anti-tank variant of the missile launchers and autocannons a lot more bite as well. Basically hang back with a few of them with the 5+ invuln. aura and reroll 1's to command trait and you got a bonafide scion gunline.

They're also worth it with Jackals, because redeployment is AWESOME.

If we use Operative Requisition Sanctioned to add an Assassin to a pure Tempestus army during deployment, that doesn't break any of our Tempestus detachment abilities since it's not technically in the detachments, right?

Did tempestus get some mono bonus if all models in army are tempestus like marine super doctrine and sisters sacred rites? Those are lost by assasin(but not by one inquisitor)

Regiment bonus for detachment like being cadian or ultramarine or black legion those aren't lost by assasin

tneva82 wrote:
Did tempestus get some mono bonus if all models in army are tempestus like marine super doctrine and sisters sacred rites? Those are lost by assasin(but not by one inquisitor)

Regiment bonus for detachment like being cadian or ultramarine or black legion those aren't lost by assasin

Nah, from what I've read everything is based on what is in the individual detachments, not the whole army — I just wanted to make sure I wasn't overlooking something.

Ok then no worries. It works just as having detachment of cadians along. Assasin isn't part of any detachment so not ruining any bonuses that way. Sister and marine mono bonuses require entire army to have same keyword and thatss the difference.

Question, if I take a Warlord in a Tempestus detachment and give him a Tempestus relic, can I still pay CP to give Guard officers in other detachments relics from the regular AM codex?

 Esmer wrote:
Question, if I take a Warlord in a Tempestus detachment and give him a Tempestus relic, can I still pay CP to give Guard officers in other detachments relics from the regular AM codex?

Yes.

So from the Valkyrie's Grav-Chute Insertion rule:
"Models may disembark from this vehicle at any point during its move"

Does this mean that if a Valkyrie moves 40" straight forward, then it can disembark one unit at say the 20" mark, then disembark another unit at the 40" mark?

I know since it moved over 20" total both units would have to roll d6's to disembark (though that could be avoided with Precision Drop), just unsure if there's a restriction where it can't drop off multiple units at different points during its move.

Arcanis161 wrote:
How are Taurox Primes now? Are they worth taking?

I ask because I need to get around 32 Scion legs and torsos to use with my Cadian Hostile Environment upgrade packs to make into Kasrkin, and my FLGS has two of the Start Collecting boxes for Scions. I don't need the Commissars, and I'd only be interested in the Tauroxes if they're worth bringing.

Taurox Primes feel like they don't provide enough benefits for how much they cost at the moment, I'm having a hard time committing 330+ points for 3 of them. I like them a lot, they're great fluffy units, but for 114 ppm you can take things like a Plasma Command Squad or another full unit of Scions — which can be deadly on their own with the new buffs.

If you take a Kappic Eagles detachment then your units get a +1 to hit after disembarking, which makes them more appealing, but I don't know if it's enough. If you position your units well, you could technically disembark the first turn and try to move your scions — but their small range limits that usage. Also consider that you aren't typically going to be disembarking the troops until turn 2 — at which point you can just deep-strike the Scions instead of using a Taurox. The catch of course is that they can't deepstrike into Rapid Fire range unless you're taking Iotan Dragons.

They do offer some protection if you have to start some of your troops on the board, but they aren't hard to kill at T6/10W/3+. The Gatling Cannon (which imo is the only good weapon choice for this edition) offers decent fire-support against GEQs, but they'll struggle to put more than a few wounds on MEQs. Lambdan Lions Taurox's get AP-1 on their Gatling, which can shred horde units — but a full unit of Scions with just lasguns (75pts) ordered with FRSRF can also pump out 36 S3/AP-2/1D shots — plus whatever buffs you give them.

It's a hard call though, Taurox Primes are almost there ... if they were 15-20 points cheaper then I probably wouldn't be so hesitant on taking a few of them.

-edit
Okay, they might actually be there, see below....

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
How are Taurox Primes now? Are they worth taking?

I ask because I need to get around 32 Scion legs and torsos to use with my Cadian Hostile Environment upgrade packs to make into Kasrkin, and my FLGS has two of the Start Collecting boxes for Scions. I don't need the Commissars, and I'd only be interested in the Tauroxes if they're worth bringing.

They're probably best in a detachment with the scion extra ap trait since it makes their gatling cannons a lot scarier and it gives the anti-tank variant of the missile launchers and autocannons a lot more bite as well. Basically hang back with a few of them with the 5+ invuln. aura and reroll 1's to command trait and you got a bonafide scion gunline.

Okay, so I forgot that the Lion's 5++ and re-roll 1's aura applies to the Taurox Prime as well, that's actually quite interesting and is a big improvement ... I also just realized that Taurox's can transport Militarum Tempestus units from any Tempestus regiment.

So what if ... you take a few Lion Taurox, Scions, and a Tempestor Prime with the 5++ plus re-roll 1's aura — but fill the Tauroxes with Kappic Eagle Scion troops with Volley Guns instead, and take an Eagle Tempestor with the overwatch relic.

Turn 2 you disembark the Eagle Scions around the front of Tauroxes. Deep-strike the Lion Scions/Tempestors and the Eagle Tempestors behind the disembarked troops to give the Lion Scions & Taurox 5++/Reroll 1's, and the Eagle troops offer charge protection from the relic:
"When resolving an Overwatch attack made by a friendly 55th Kappic Eagles model within 3" of a model with this Relic, if that attack scores a hit, the target is slowed until the end of the phase. When a charge roll is made for a slowed unit, halve the result (rounding up)."

Put some Eagle Scions with volley guns from each unit within 3" of the tempestor, and wrap the rest around the front a bit like a grot shield screen. You have a very high chance of getting a 6 when firing overwatch, which means that if the charging unit is 9+ inches away they'll fail the charge. If you want to be cheeky, spend 1CP on Progeny of Conflict to give the Eagle Tempestor the Bellowing Voice warlord trait to extend his relic aura to 6"

If your Eagle Scions kill a model, you can spend 1CP on Tactical Misdirection to give your opponent's nearby units -1 to hit until they kill that scion unit.

If your opponent deep-strikes something 12" from the mini-gunline, you can pay 1 CP on Superior Intelligence (our Auspex Scan equivalent).

There seems to be a lot of options available now, oof, I'm going to have to think about this for awhile lol.

Q: For the purposes of the Tempestus Drop Force Specialist
Detachment, what is a Militarum Tempestus Detachment?
A: A Militarum Tempestus Detachment is an Astra
Militarum Detachment that has the Storm Troopers
Regimental Doctrine.

But the units in the detachment do not get the keyword Militarum Tempestus, correct? But you could have veterans, infantry squads, Basilisks etc with the stormtroopers doctrine.

General Hobbs wrote:

Q: For the purposes of the Tempestus Drop Force Specialist
Detachment, what is a Militarum Tempestus Detachment?
A: A Militarum Tempestus Detachment is an Astra
Militarum Detachment that has the Storm Troopers
Regimental Doctrine.

But the units in the detachment do not get the keyword Militarum Tempestus, correct? But you could have veterans, infantry squads, Basilisks etc with the stormtroopers doctrine.

So we can't have one of the new regiments with drop force? What's the point then?

Robcio wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:

Q: For the purposes of the Tempestus Drop Force Specialist
Detachment, what is a Militarum Tempestus Detachment?
A: A Militarum Tempestus Detachment is an Astra
Militarum Detachment that has the Storm Troopers
Regimental Doctrine.

But the units in the detachment do not get the keyword Militarum Tempestus, correct? But you could have veterans, infantry squads, Basilisks etc with the stormtroopers doctrine.

So we can't have one of the new regiments with drop force? What's the point then?

Still needs a FAQ. Book says that you gain the Tempestus Regiment. And, that you may only choose one of the six new regiments.
Keyword—gain. So, by RAW, you still get the Stormtroopers doctrine plus one of the six new doctrines.
So, you can until there is a FAQ saying otherwise.

 Apple Peel wrote:

Robcio wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:

Q: For the purposes of the Tempestus Drop Force Specialist
Detachment, what is a Militarum Tempestus Detachment?
A: A Militarum Tempestus Detachment is an Astra
Militarum Detachment that has the Storm Troopers
Regimental Doctrine.

But the units in the detachment do not get the keyword Militarum Tempestus, correct? But you could have veterans, infantry squads, Basilisks etc with the stormtroopers doctrine.

So we can't have one of the new regiments with drop force? What's the point then?

Still needs a FAQ. Book says that you gain the Tempestus Regiment. And, that you may only choose one of the six new regiments.
Keyword—gain. So, by RAW, you still get the Stormtroopers doctrine plus one of the six new doctrines.
So, you can until there is a FAQ saying otherwise.

I noticed that too last night. Why would they print the old stormtroopers doctrine as a reference to the AM book and then say you can only choose one of the new regiments? (also why reprint it then say See AM pg XX?). I wasn't on the BOTH regiment train until I noticed that detail. Its so up in the air you can only have FAQ clear this mess up at this point.

Hasn't it been 2 weeks????

Need this FAQ to drop!

So its been a month ago since the PA released...
Could someone give a full review about rules? Which is the best/worst and how overall pure scions feels in competitive meta!

MrDot wrote:
So its been a month ago since the PA released...
Could someone give a full review about rules? Which is the best/worst and how overall pure scions feels in competitive meta!

We're waiting on the FAQ because some of the rules we have are written weird

Guuuuuuys,please, could someone write a review about scions after weeeks of playtesting!
Will be there interesting to read how they good or bad in space marines dominated meta! And which regiment perfect for monoscions after months post PA!

MrDot wrote:
Guuuuuuys,please, could someone write a review about scions after weeeks of playtesting!
Will be there interesting to read how they good or bad in space marines dominated meta! And which regiment perfect for monoscions after months post PA!

If you get both Stormtroopers and a choice of new, like raw says now, my bet is Kappic Eagles for best, for getting the additional shots on a 5+ when getting out of vehicles, and getting extra shots on a 4+ when TDF units get +1 from Grav-chute commando.

If not both when the FAQ gets here, Iotan Dragons is probably your best all-rounder. Lambdan Lions if you are running lots of Taurox Primes.

 Apple Peel wrote:

MrDot wrote:
Guuuuuuys,please, could someone write a review about scions after weeeks of playtesting!
Will be there interesting to read how they good or bad in space marines dominated meta! And which regiment perfect for monoscions after months post PA!

If you get both Stormtroopers and a choice of new, like raw says now, my bet is Kappic Eagles for best, for getting the additional shots on a 5+ when getting out of vehicles, and getting extra shots on a 4+ when TDF units get +1 from Grav-chute commando.

If not both when the FAQ gets here, Iotan Dragons is probably your best all-rounder. Lambdan Lions if you are running lots of Taurox Primes.

I dont know why people started to think what they can get both the stormtrooper and new doctrines~
Its obviously you cant.
No FAQ~

MrDot wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

MrDot wrote:
Guuuuuuys,please, could someone write a review about scions after weeeks of playtesting!
Will be there interesting to read how they good or bad in space marines dominated meta! And which regiment perfect for monoscions after months post PA!

If you get both Stormtroopers and a choice of new, like raw says now, my bet is Kappic Eagles for best, for getting the additional shots on a 5+ when getting out of vehicles, and getting extra shots on a 4+ when TDF units get +1 from Grav-chute commando.

If not both when the FAQ gets here, Iotan Dragons is probably your best all-rounder. Lambdan Lions if you are running lots of Taurox Primes.

I dont know why people started to think what they can get both the stormtrooper and new doctrines~
Its obviously you cant.
No FAQ~

Because RAW says you do. PAGG says Scions now GAIN <Tempestus Regiment>. It does not replace the old rule for the Militarum Tempestus keyword, which gives you Stormtroopers, in the codex. It also says that <Tempestus Regiment> can only be replaced by one of the six new regiments. Stormtroopers can’t replace <Tempestus Regiment>, as it’s not one of the six new ones. People can read and put these together. That’s why. So, until the FAQ, you get both, otherwise it’s impossible to get Stormtroopers.

MrDot wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

MrDot wrote:
Guuuuuuys,please, could someone write a review about scions after weeeks of playtesting!
Will be there interesting to read how they good or bad in space marines dominated meta! And which regiment perfect for monoscions after months post PA!

If you get both Stormtroopers and a choice of new, like raw says now, my bet is Kappic Eagles for best, for getting the additional shots on a 5+ when getting out of vehicles, and getting extra shots on a 4+ when TDF units get +1 from Grav-chute commando.

If not both when the FAQ gets here, Iotan Dragons is probably your best all-rounder. Lambdan Lions if you are running lots of Taurox Primes.

I dont know why people started to think what they can get both the stormtrooper and new doctrines~
Its obviously you cant.
No FAQ~

RAW. You choose a detachment and make it filled with Militarum Tempestus units. It thus gains the Stormtrooper doctrine.

You then gain a <Tempestus Regiment> keyword from PAGG. Note the rule says gain, not replace or lose. YOu then pick one of the 6 choices. From there, you get a Regimental doctrine. At no point in the process do you ever lose the Militarum Tempestus keyword, so you always keep the Stormtrooper doctrine.

Well if that's really the case there's no reason to not go Dragons.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well if that's really the case there's no reason to not go Dragons.

Until the FAQ clears things up.

General Hobbs wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well if that's really the case there's no reason to not go Dragons.

Until the FAQ clears things up.

There is a solid enough way to twist the RAW to support both sides of the argument. It is a waste of time though. The sort of thing that leads to those 20 page YMDC thread between 2 people.

It will most surely be FAQed, unless no one emailed them about it I guess.

That would being up the point of the one Regiment that gets their version of exploding 6 to hit and whether or not you get two total or the actual replacement happening.

If you do get the benefit of both stormtroopers and the rgeimental doctrines there's a real argument for the exploding 6's regiments. Since under Stormtroopers your generating additional shots, not additional hits those additional shots can also generate additional hits.

In short a scion with a plasma gun in rapid fire range gets 2 shots, assuming you roll 2 6's to hit, you then generate 2 additional shots and 2 additional hits, giving you 4 hits and 2 additional shots to take. Assuming you roll another 2 6's you then generate another 2 additional hits for 8 hits total.

If you don't get the benefit of stormtroopers I'm gonna guess the go to regiments will be eagles, lions or dragons depending on how many scions you take, how many transports etc and how much a point of extra ap will matter in your local meta.

 Trickstick wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well if that's really the case there's no reason to not go Dragons.

Until the FAQ clears things up.

There is a solid enough way to twist the RAW to support both sides of the argument. It is a waste of time though. The sort of thing that leads to those 20 page YMDC thread between 2 people.

It will most surely be FAQed, unless no one emailed them about it I guess.

I was firmly in the in one regiment camp but after getting a good look at the book.....its pretty vague. Like why would they include the tag for stormtroopers (but not the actual rule for some reason) in the list if you couldn't choose it? Additionally its set up in a completely different format than the other regiments (i.e. no picture, etc) so really who knows until we get an FAQ

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well if that's really the case there's no reason to not go Dragons.

Until the FAQ clears things up.

There is a solid enough way to twist the RAW to support both sides of the argument. It is a waste of time though. The sort of thing that leads to those 20 page YMDC thread between 2 people.

It will most surely be FAQed, unless no one emailed them about it I guess.

I was firmly in the in one regiment camp but after getting a good look at the book.....its pretty vague. Like why would they include the tag for stormtroopers (but not the actual rule for some reason) in the list if you couldn't choose it? Additionally its set up in a completely different format than the other regiments (i.e. no picture, etc) so really who knows until we get an FAQ

It’s an oddity certainly. You would figure you only get one, but with how you gain a Tempestus Regiment, and how it says that Tempestus Regiment can only be replaced by one of the new doctrines, and how currently getting both is the only way to take a Tempestus Drop Force based on this info, it is quite shaky.

 Apple Peel wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well if that's really the case there's no reason to not go Dragons.

Until the FAQ clears things up.

There is a solid enough way to twist the RAW to support both sides of the argument. It is a waste of time though. The sort of thing that leads to those 20 page YMDC thread between 2 people.

It will most surely be FAQed, unless no one emailed them about it I guess.

I was firmly in the in one regiment camp but after getting a good look at the book.....its pretty vague. Like why would they include the tag for stormtroopers (but not the actual rule for some reason) in the list if you couldn't choose it? Additionally its set up in a completely different format than the other regiments (i.e. no picture, etc) so really who knows until we get an FAQ

It’s an oddity certainly. You would figure you only get one, but with how you gain a Tempestus Regiment, and how it says that Tempestus Regiment can only be replaced by one of the new doctrines, and how currently getting both is the only way to take a Tempestus Drop Force based on this info, it is quite shaky.

I COMPLETELY forgot about the drop force! I knew that a lot of those detachments are kind of abandoned at this point but it makes it interesting that they would make a new option that completely invalidates the old rule without at least referencing it (like they did with Veterans and the Siege stuff in Vigilus)

Quick question: is our possible to include heavy or fast attack units in a Tempestus detachment? Battlescribe says no, but I can't find the rule. I want to take cyclops demo vehicles and Tauros buggies.

If you include any units in a detachment that are not Militarum Tempestus, or the units listed under the "Advisors and Auxilla" rule, then you give up your Tempestus doctrine. So you can do it, but it isn't recommended.

Battlescribe locks the units out when you select a MT doctine, it asumes that you would want to keep it

 Trickstick wrote:
If you include any units in a detachment that are not Militarum Tempestus, or the units listed under the "Advisors and Auxilla" rule, then you give up your Tempestus doctrine. So you can do it, but it isn't recommended.

Battlescribe locks the units out when you select a MT doctine, it asumes that you would want to keep it

Seems like you're implying that Scions basically work like Flash Gitz being Free Bootaz vs being brought in some other Orks detachment.

 Singleton Mosby wrote:
Quick question: is our possible to include heavy or fast attack units in a Tempestus detachment? Battlescribe says no, but I can't find the rule. I want to take cyclops demo vehicles and Tauros buggies.

No, the closest you can get is to put all your non-MT stuff in a separate detachment with storm trooper doctrine as a custom regiment, i.e.

Storm trooper outrider detachment
Primaris Psyker
Tauros
Tauros
Scout Sentinel

Q: Are the Militarum Tempestus Regimental Doctrines taken in addition to the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine listed in Codex: Astra Militarum, or instead of it?

A: They are taken instead of the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine in Codex: Astra Militarum. Note, if you wish to continue using your Militarum Tempestus Detachments as you currently have been, you can simply select the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine from page 65 in Psychic Awakening: The Greater Good.

Gnollu wrote:
Q: Are the Militarum Tempestus Regimental Doctrines taken in addition to the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine listed in Codex: Astra Militarum, or instead of it?

A: They are taken instead of the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine in Codex: Astra Militarum. Note, if you wish to continue using your Militarum Tempestus Detachments as you currently have been, you can simply select the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine from page 65 in Psychic Awakening: The Greater Good.

Not a surprise. Nor is it a surprise that they didnt address the new regiments being locked out of using Drop Force.

Also, it's a Blessed Bolt Pistol now. Even got pistol 2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:
Not a surprise. Nor is it a surprise that they didnt address the new regiments being locked out of using Drop Force.

They did address it. It says you can't in the quote provided.

 Trickstick wrote:

They did address it. It says you can't in the quote provided.

You completely missed the point.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

They did address it. It says you can't in the quote provided.

You completely missed the point.

Sorry but your wording was a bit confusing. They did address the ambiguity that there was, not the underlying fact that you can't combine them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As an aside, I love how the Guard got like 4 entries in the FAQ, and everything else is Tau. I guess Guard were better written.

So now can we get back to discussing tactics? It is really repulsing to enter this thread only to see 2 pages of arguing about GW rules wording...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How many valkyries one should bring for dragoons? Is one for meltagun enough? I cannot see use for the second one

Gnollu wrote:
Q: Are the Militarum Tempestus Regimental Doctrines taken in addition to the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine listed in Codex: Astra Militarum, or instead of it?

A: They are taken instead of the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine in Codex: Astra Militarum. Note, if you wish to continue using your Militarum Tempestus Detachments as you currently have been, you can simply select the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine from page 65 in Psychic Awakening: The Greater Good.

That was obviously~~~~~~

I said it from start the discussion

 Trickstick wrote:

Sorry but your wording was a bit confusing. They did address the ambiguity that there was, not the underlying fact that you can't combine them.

S'all good. The degree of lingering issues from this FAQ (for both Tau and Scions) is just really irking me today.

Gnollu wrote:
So now can we get back to discussing tactics? It is really repulsing to enter this thread only to see 2 pages of arguing about GW rules wording...

When the wording of rules fundamentally alters how the army plays, then said wording is a completely legitimate topic of discussion.

The wording of the rules is kind of important to deciding on tactics. I do agree that things get a bit stupid, people need to be more ready to just agree to disagree.

I'm not sure that meltas are really worth bringing a valk for. The 6" melta bonus is not worth the points, in my eyes. I would rather just have more squads to drop.

MrDot wrote:

That was obviously~~~~~~

I said it from start the discussion

Congratulations, you picked an interpretation that was borne out by an FAQ, yet was entirely unsupported by the original rules. It happens all the fething time.

Sterling191 wrote:

Gnollu wrote:
Q: Are the Militarum Tempestus Regimental Doctrines taken in addition to the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine listed in Codex: Astra Militarum, or instead of it?

A: They are taken instead of the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine in Codex: Astra Militarum. Note, if you wish to continue using your Militarum Tempestus Detachments as you currently have been, you can simply select the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine from page 65 in Psychic Awakening: The Greater Good.

Not a surprise. Nor is it a surprise that they didnt address the new regiments being locked out of using Drop Force.

How are they locked out of using Drop Force?

You pick Storm Troopers Doctrine, then you can use it, as per the earlier FAQ. No where does it say you have to use the Doctrine associated with your regiment.

 Kcalehc wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Gnollu wrote:
Q: Are the Militarum Tempestus Regimental Doctrines taken in addition to the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine listed in Codex: Astra Militarum, or instead of it?

A: They are taken instead of the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine in Codex: Astra Militarum. Note, if you wish to continue using your Militarum Tempestus Detachments as you currently have been, you can simply select the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine from page 65 in Psychic Awakening: The Greater Good.

Not a surprise. Nor is it a surprise that they didnt address the new regiments being locked out of using Drop Force.

How are they locked out of using Drop Force?

You pick Storm Troopers Doctrine, then you can use it, as per the earlier FAQ. No where does it say you have to use the Doctrine associated with your regiment.

Agreed. I'm confused as well.

This FAQ question just addressed the issue of stacking the old doctrine with the newer ones. How are they locked out of Vigilus drop force?

 Dynas wrote:

This FAQ question just addressed the issue of stacking the old doctrine with the newer ones. How are they locked out of Vigilus drop force?

Vigilus FAQ defines a Militarum Tempestus detachment as requiring the Storm Troopers doctrine, and a Militarum Tempestus detachment is required to use the Drop Force. It cannot be used with any of the Tempestus Regiment doctrines.

It also represents GW breaking their own internal rules for what defines detachments, which is exceptionally stupid.

 Kcalehc wrote:
How are they locked out of using Drop Force?

You pick Storm Troopers Doctrine, then you can use it, as per the earlier FAQ. No where does it say you have to use the Doctrine associated with your regiment.

The point is that you can't have, say, Kappic Eagles doctrine in a Drop Force.

well, its a good thing the drop force reeeeally isn't all that good.

My current idea is to try to run lots of Kappic Eagles in a lot of Tauroxes and Valks with a little bit of airpower sprinkled in for good measure. I have a Thunderbolt and a Vulture that needs table time although im not sure which one would be better (my gut says a fully kitted thunderbolt could WRECK a vehicle but its unlikely to stick around too long for the absurd point cost)

 generalchaos34 wrote:
well, its a good thing the drop force reeeeally isn't all that good.

My current idea is to try to run lots of Kappic Eagles in a lot of Tauroxes and Valks with a little bit of airpower sprinkled in for good measure. I have a Thunderbolt and a Vulture that needs table time although im not sure which one would be better (my gut says a fully kitted thunderbolt could WRECK a vehicle but its unlikely to stick around too long for the absurd point cost)

I love the Punisher Vulture, but I just can't justify it for 205 points. I hope it goes down with the FW index.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
well, its a good thing the drop force reeeeally isn't all that good.

My current idea is to try to run lots of Kappic Eagles in a lot of Tauroxes and Valks with a little bit of airpower sprinkled in for good measure. I have a Thunderbolt and a Vulture that needs table time although im not sure which one would be better (my gut says a fully kitted thunderbolt could WRECK a vehicle but its unlikely to stick around too long for the absurd point cost)

Two Valkyries and a Vulture as a distraction carnifex might be interesting. People are inordinately frightened by 40 Punisher shots. Seriously, when I've played it, it's killed maybe 8 GEQ and two or three Marines per shooting phase. My opponents generally go, 'Is that it?' after I've rolled a bucket of ineffectual dice.

I've been theoryhammering a triple strike list that should keep your momentum going and the enemy on the defense. I like to call it Drop Force Hydra.

List:
Battalion (Iotan Dragons, Drop Force)
Tempestor Prime with Command Rod
Lord Commissar with Powerfist
2x Tempestus Scions (10 man)
Tempestus Scions (9 man)
Astropath
Wyrdvane Psykers (3 man)
2x Valkyries with Rocket Pods and Heavy Bolters

Battalion (Lambdan Lions, Drop Force)
Tempestor Prime with Command Rod
Primaris Psyker
2x Tempestus Scions with 4 Plasma Guns (10 man)
Tempestus Scions with 2 Plasma Guns (5 man)
Tempestus Command Squad with 4 Plasma Guns
2x Officer of the Fleet
Valkyrie with Rocket Pods and Heavy Bolters
3x Taurox Primes with Missile Launcher and Autocannons

Battalion (Kappic Eagles)
Tempestor Prime eith Command Rod
Aradia Madellan
2x Tempestus Scions with 4 Hotshot Volley Guns (10 man)
Tempestus Scions with 2 Hotshot Volley Guns (5 man)
Tempestus Scions Command Squad with 4 Hotshot Volley Guns

Tactics:
Use the Valkyries, Dragons, and Psykers to annihilate the enemy's screen turn 1 with first rank second rank fire and mortal wounds (use the strat to allow grav chute within 5" if a juicy target is available for grenadiers and charge to tie up their lines). Drop the Lions turn 2 to destroy the big enemy units with support from the Taurox Primes. The Plasma Guns Rerolling 1s, Rerolling wounds, and being AP4 should put a pretty nice dent in a couple things. Turn 3 your Taurox Primes should have moved up to be in a position to let out the Eagles and have them clean up stragglers and hold objectives.

If your opponent screens with tougher units swap out the Dragons with the Lions and drop the Dragons turn 2 to kill off their weaker units.

Banville wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
well, its a good thing the drop force reeeeally isn't all that good.

My current idea is to try to run lots of Kappic Eagles in a lot of Tauroxes and Valks with a little bit of airpower sprinkled in for good measure. I have a Thunderbolt and a Vulture that needs table time although im not sure which one would be better (my gut says a fully kitted thunderbolt could WRECK a vehicle but its unlikely to stick around too long for the absurd point cost)

Two Valkyries and a Vulture as a distraction carnifex might be interesting. People are inordinately frightened by 40 Punisher shots. Seriously, when I've played it, it's killed maybe 8 GEQ and two or three Marines per shooting phase. My opponents generally go, 'Is that it?' after I've rolled a bucket of ineffectual dice.

I also completely forgot that I have an Avenger Strike Fighter (long story!) I think both the Avenger and the Thunderbolt fully loaded can really throw the pain downhill but they clock in at 200 and 263. The avenger gives you an 8 shot St6 AP-2 gun, 2 lascannons, and 2 missile launchers and the Thunderbolt gives you 4 autcannons, 2 lascannons, and 4 hellstrike. Both of which can shore up the lack of long range firepower in Scions. I wish the Vendetta wasn't a steaming pile that would be pretty sweet to be able to run those again

Sounds like you really want an Officer of the Fleet in that army.

Anyone think the Blessed Bolt Pistol is worth taking? I know that relic pistols are pretty pointless, but 2 character sniping shot at 12", with damage 3 against psykers could be ok. Although you give up the command rod. Eh, it's still kind of pointless isn't it?

 Trickstick wrote:
Sounds like you really want an Officer of the Fleet in that army.

Anyone think the Blessed Bolt Pistol is worth taking? I know that relic pistols are pretty pointless, but 2 character sniping shot at 12", with damage 3 against psykers could be ok. Although you give up the command rod. Eh, it's still kind of pointless isn't it?

Its not awful if there's an enemy psyker with not great armor somewhere. And as the bearer is 9th Iotan, he's getting an extra hit for every 6 rolled to hit, so not absolutely terrible.

But still probably not as good as other options, and not really worth spending a CP on to get it.