Hi guys,
I have just seen (eventually) all the new content and units in high quality, and I must say : those primaris look neat !
I have to say: FINALLY !
Do you now see why we were complaining about lack of gothic aesthetic earlier ? With models such as those, I could (and maybe will one day...) make a full primaris Black Templar army worthy of its predecessors. There isn't a lot to say, they are great sculpt with a beautiful aesthetic and I can finally see me buying primaris.
Has any of you noticed that / changed his mind ?
Having seen the new turret/quadbike my mind has definitely changed. I went from "I'm not a fan but they look alright" to "they're awful and I hate them".
The only new thing I've seen recently I like is the Starcraft ripoff.
pm713 wrote: Having seen the new turret/quadbike my mind has definitely changed. I went from "I'm not a fan but they look alright" to "they're awful and I hate them".
The only new thing I've seen recently I like is the Starcraft ripoff.
Ok I didn't know I was late AGAIN and indeed, they newer new space marines are awful. Oh, Throne, why...
pm713 wrote: Having seen the new turret/quadbike my mind has definitely changed. I went from "I'm not a fan but they look alright" to "they're awful and I hate them".
The only new thing I've seen recently I like is the Starcraft ripoff.
Ok I didn't know I was late AGAIN and indeed, they newer new space marines are awful. Oh, Throne, why...
Because gw hired a bunch of old Hasbro designers to make the new primaris vehicles.
Ok, sorry, I apologize. Some of those old G.I. Joe toys looked way better than these.
The quadbike just looks silly to me, it's all blocky and comes off cartoonish. Both the bike and turret seem stupid because the quadbike seems like a land speeder but worse and the turret is a manual version of the existing auto turret so you just waste a marine manning it.
The quadbike just looks silly to me, it's all blocky and comes off cartoonish. Both the bike and turret seem stupid because the quadbike seems like a land speeder but worse and the turret is a manual version of the existing auto turret so you just waste a marine manning it.
You mean the Autoturret that has worse shooting? Yeah not really a waste if the shooting is better.
The quadbike just looks silly to me, it's all blocky and comes off cartoonish. Both the bike and turret seem stupid because the quadbike seems like a land speeder but worse and the turret is a manual version of the existing auto turret so you just waste a marine manning it.
You mean the Autoturret that has worse shooting? Yeah not really a waste if the shooting is better.
Also all the Marine vehicles are blocky.
It really is, I'm talking background. A computer system to aim and fire costs a tiny amount compared the investment of a Primaris marine who is largely wasted sitting on a turret. It's silly and the only reason for it is because GW want to make new models but can't be arsed putting effort into it.
The quadbike looks like a series of random blocks stacked together. Other things do not. Look at the Rhino, it looks like it can be stored with very little wasted space in blocks. The quadbike doesn't.
I don’t think there are any rules or points/real cost that would get me to pick up that quad bike. Not a fan of the look.
The turret I don’t mind. Does not fit with the marine MO of warfare. While I’m sure there is a time and place for static guns, if I want long range firepower, I’ll take a squad of suppressors, or an old dev squad. Still, if the price is right I might grab one or two. Or kitbash my own out of random bits.
Still sold on the content of the big box. The question is do I just get one for myself, or one for The Boy as well? If this is the limited version, that implies there might be a slightly more reasonable version later. But what the follow up contains is still an unknown, and likely will be so they can sell as many of this box as they can.
As someone who dislikes Marines in general all I can say is I'm enjoying watching how awful the new non-character marine models are. At least they make the newcron stuff look somewhat good by comparison. Except those toilet bowl guys.
The quadbike just looks silly to me, it's all blocky and comes off cartoonish. Both the bike and turret seem stupid because the quadbike seems like a land speeder but worse and the turret is a manual version of the existing auto turret so you just waste a marine manning it.
You mean the Autoturret that has worse shooting? Yeah not really a waste if the shooting is better.
Also all the Marine vehicles are blocky.
It really is, I'm talking background. A computer system to aim and fire costs a tiny amount compared the investment of a Primaris marine who is largely wasted sitting on a turret. It's silly and the only reason for it is because GW want to make new models but can't be arsed putting effort into it.
The quadbike looks like a series of random blocks stacked together. Other things do not. Look at the Rhino, it looks like it can be stored with very little wasted space in blocks. The quadbike doesn't.
Yeah and Marines waste a whole Techmarine for a TFC instead of using a computer. Your point?
godardc wrote: Hi guys,
I have just seen (eventually) all the new content and units in high quality, and I must say : those primaris look neat !
I have to say: FINALLY !
Do you now see why we were complaining about lack of gothic aesthetic earlier ? With models such as those, I could (and maybe will one day...) make a full primaris Black Templar army worthy of its predecessors. There isn't a lot to say, they are great sculpt with a beautiful aesthetic and I can finally see me buying primaris.
Has any of you noticed that / changed his mind ?
Nah, I go to into Primaris for the sleek looks of the first waves. I like clean armour, not taberknackles. Can't say I'm a huge fan of the over the to
Crusader look, but I a man glad folks that like that kind of stuff get theirs. Then again, I am a Raptors player and will adapt. I will concert my sword and shield dudes with third party stuff.
I am loving the bikes and the buggy though. The latter is all kinds of awesome.
The quadbike just looks silly to me, it's all blocky and comes off cartoonish. Both the bike and turret seem stupid because the quadbike seems like a land speeder but worse and the turret is a manual version of the existing auto turret so you just waste a marine manning it.
You mean the Autoturret that has worse shooting? Yeah not really a waste if the shooting is better.
Also all the Marine vehicles are blocky.
It really is, I'm talking background. A computer system to aim and fire costs a tiny amount compared the investment of a Primaris marine who is largely wasted sitting on a turret. It's silly and the only reason for it is because GW want to make new models but can't be arsed putting effort into it.
The quadbike looks like a series of random blocks stacked together. Other things do not. Look at the Rhino, it looks like it can be stored with very little wasted space in blocks. The quadbike doesn't.
Yeah and Marines waste a whole Techmarine for a TFC instead of using a computer. Your point?
Tbh the thunderfire cannon is still a new model and another stupid idea that didn't even fit the aesthetic and background
The quadbike just looks silly to me, it's all blocky and comes off cartoonish. Both the bike and turret seem stupid because the quadbike seems like a land speeder but worse and the turret is a manual version of the existing auto turret so you just waste a marine manning it.
You mean the Autoturret that has worse shooting? Yeah not really a waste if the shooting is better.
Also all the Marine vehicles are blocky.
It really is, I'm talking background. A computer system to aim and fire costs a tiny amount compared the investment of a Primaris marine who is largely wasted sitting on a turret. It's silly and the only reason for it is because GW want to make new models but can't be arsed putting effort into it.
The quadbike looks like a series of random blocks stacked together. Other things do not. Look at the Rhino, it looks like it can be stored with very little wasted space in blocks. The quadbike doesn't.
Yeah and Marines waste a whole Techmarine for a TFC instead of using a computer. Your point?
That it's a really stupid thing to do in both cases. This is just worse because it's more OH LOOK PRIMARIS THEY'RE SO COOL AND GREAT rather than actually giving a damn.
The quadbike just looks silly to me, it's all blocky and comes off cartoonish. Both the bike and turret seem stupid because the quadbike seems like a land speeder but worse and the turret is a manual version of the existing auto turret so you just waste a marine manning it.
You mean the Autoturret that has worse shooting? Yeah not really a waste if the shooting is better.
Also all the Marine vehicles are blocky.
It really is, I'm talking background. A computer system to aim and fire costs a tiny amount compared the investment of a Primaris marine who is largely wasted sitting on a turret. It's silly and the only reason for it is because GW want to make new models but can't be arsed putting effort into it.
The quadbike looks like a series of random blocks stacked together. Other things do not. Look at the Rhino, it looks like it can be stored with very little wasted space in blocks. The quadbike doesn't.
Yeah and Marines waste a whole Techmarine for a TFC instead of using a computer. Your point?
Tbh the thunderfire cannon is still a new model and another stupid idea that didn't even fit the aesthetic and background
Marines ALWAYS had portable artillery such as Mole Mortars and Trantulas - some controlled some autosenses.
The Turret is ok but the Quad is asthetically bad....
While the turret gun emplacement thing looks pretty cool (though I'm struggling to think of why it exists from a more practical point of view), the new buggy reminded me of something...
The quadbike just looks silly to me, it's all blocky and comes off cartoonish. Both the bike and turret seem stupid because the quadbike seems like a land speeder but worse and the turret is a manual version of the existing auto turret so you just waste a marine manning it.
You mean the Autoturret that has worse shooting? Yeah not really a waste if the shooting is better.
Also all the Marine vehicles are blocky.
It really is, I'm talking background. A computer system to aim and fire costs a tiny amount compared the investment of a Primaris marine who is largely wasted sitting on a turret. It's silly and the only reason for it is because GW want to make new models but can't be arsed putting effort into it.
The quadbike looks like a series of random blocks stacked together. Other things do not. Look at the Rhino, it looks like it can be stored with very little wasted space in blocks. The quadbike doesn't.
Yeah and Marines waste a whole Techmarine for a TFC instead of using a computer. Your point?
That it's a really stupid thing to do in both cases. This is just worse because it's more OH LOOK PRIMARIS THEY'RE SO COOL AND GREAT rather than actually giving a damn.
This is really a non-complaint then for what you just said then.
The quadbike just looks silly to me, it's all blocky and comes off cartoonish. Both the bike and turret seem stupid because the quadbike seems like a land speeder but worse and the turret is a manual version of the existing auto turret so you just waste a marine manning it.
You mean the Autoturret that has worse shooting? Yeah not really a waste if the shooting is better.
Also all the Marine vehicles are blocky.
It really is, I'm talking background. A computer system to aim and fire costs a tiny amount compared the investment of a Primaris marine who is largely wasted sitting on a turret. It's silly and the only reason for it is because GW want to make new models but can't be arsed putting effort into it.
The quadbike looks like a series of random blocks stacked together. Other things do not. Look at the Rhino, it looks like it can be stored with very little wasted space in blocks. The quadbike doesn't.
Yeah and Marines waste a whole Techmarine for a TFC instead of using a computer. Your point?
That it's a really stupid thing to do in both cases. This is just worse because it's more OH LOOK PRIMARIS THEY'RE SO COOL AND GREAT rather than actually giving a damn.
This is really a non-complaint then for what you just said then.
Because if something pre-existing is silly it makes sense to make a dumber version?
The quadbike just looks silly to me, it's all blocky and comes off cartoonish. Both the bike and turret seem stupid because the quadbike seems like a land speeder but worse and the turret is a manual version of the existing auto turret so you just waste a marine manning it.
You mean the Autoturret that has worse shooting? Yeah not really a waste if the shooting is better.
Also all the Marine vehicles are blocky.
It really is, I'm talking background. A computer system to aim and fire costs a tiny amount compared the investment of a Primaris marine who is largely wasted sitting on a turret. It's silly and the only reason for it is because GW want to make new models but can't be arsed putting effort into it.
The quadbike looks like a series of random blocks stacked together. Other things do not. Look at the Rhino, it looks like it can be stored with very little wasted space in blocks. The quadbike doesn't.
Yeah and Marines waste a whole Techmarine for a TFC instead of using a computer. Your point?
That it's a really stupid thing to do in both cases. This is just worse because it's more OH LOOK PRIMARIS THEY'RE SO COOL AND GREAT rather than actually giving a damn.
This is really a non-complaint then for what you just said then.
Because if something pre-existing is silly it makes sense to make a dumber version?
What's silly about mobile artillery or gun emplacements for the HQ? You're complaining to complain, simple as that.
pm713 wrote: I'm complaining because I really dislike the new models which look either silly, have no point or both.
Mobile artillery isn't silly. Immobile artillery you waste resources on is.
Silly like 8 foot tall super soldiers with thighs thinner than their ankles? Because that's been the baseline space marine since RT.
Silly like my suspension of disbelief finally snaps. Although I've never actually seen a Marines ankles so there's not really a reason that would bother me.
pm713 wrote: I'm complaining because I really dislike the new models which look either silly, have no point or both.
Mobile artillery isn't silly. Immobile artillery you waste resources on is.
Really disliking them is a good answer
Depends on how difficult it is to set up and take down that turret - may nto be any more diffucult than standard artillery. Wasting a Techmarine using it is a different matter - would have prefered a servitor
pm713 wrote: I'm complaining because I really dislike the new models which look either silly, have no point or both.
Mobile artillery isn't silly. Immobile artillery you waste resources on is.
Really disliking them is a good answer
Depends on how difficult it is to set up and take down that turret - may nto be any more diffucult than standard artillery. Wasting a Techmarine using it is a different matter - would have prefered a servitor
Personally I'd make it into a near dead marine built into it. Not everyone can go into a dreadnought.
I don't think GW knocked it out of the park with every model, but most of those models are great. As a dark angels player seeing primaris bikes and terminator-ish models means that my deathwing and ravenwing are going to expand. Also heavy weapon gravis (because this is undoubtedly just one config, similar to eliminators) is marvelous. All of the HQ look wonderful, as does the ancient. The only thing in the 9th edition collectors box I'm not over the moon about is the intercessors with chain sword and heavy bolt pistols, because I can't see them being anything but reivers that can't deepstrike.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:What's silly about mobile artillery or gun emplacements for the HQ? You're complaining to complain, simple as that.
... am I agreeing with Slayer-Fan? Yes, I am.
It goes back to something I've been calling the opponents of Primaris on for a while - the things that you're seeing AREN'T NEW. They're concepts and ideas that have already long existed in the Space Marine arsenal, and are simply getting a new coat of paint. Some ornate aspects, some clean flat aspects, some tacticool aspects, blocky vehicles, tracks, hovers, static guns, mobile guns, long ranged precision fire, short range melee brutality - Space Marines cover a LOT of design ground.
Bikes having no ground clearance - no different to the existing bikes.
Wasting a Space Marine on the static turret - no different to Thunderfire Cannons and Rapier Batteries.
The ATV being blocky - have you seen the Rhino?
And, before anyone gets any ideas, I'm not even picking these units up! Why? I just don't like bikes, and the static guns don't really interest me, or the theme of my particular army. If you feel like a certain thing doesn't fit your own army, that's totally valid! Just don't turn around and be all "this is totally unlike all Space Marine things ever!" when that's not the case.
Besides, I'm not picking up the ATV, but I'd so much rather have that than the Attack Bike. How anyone can call the ATV goofy but not the literal sidecar eludes me.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:What's silly about mobile artillery or gun emplacements for the HQ? You're complaining to complain, simple as that.
... am I agreeing with Slayer-Fan? Yes, I am.
It goes back to something I've been calling the opponents of Primaris on for a while - the things that you're seeing AREN'T NEW. They're concepts and ideas that have already long existed in the Space Marine arsenal, and are simply getting a new coat of paint. Some ornate aspects, some clean flat aspects, some tacticool aspects, blocky vehicles, tracks, hovers, static guns, mobile guns, long ranged precision fire, short range melee brutality - Space Marines cover a LOT of design ground.
Bikes having no ground clearance - no different to the existing bikes.
Wasting a Space Marine on the static turret - no different to Thunderfire Cannons and Rapier Batteries.
The ATV being blocky - have you seen the Rhino?
And, before anyone gets any ideas, I'm not even picking these units up! Why? I just don't like bikes, and the static guns don't really interest me, or the theme of my particular army. If you feel like a certain thing doesn't fit your own army, that's totally valid! Just don't turn around and be all "this is totally unlike all Space Marine things ever!" when that's not the case.
Besides, I'm not picking up the ATV, but I'd so much rather have that than the Attack Bike. How anyone can call the ATV goofy but not the literal sidecar eludes me.
They aren't new coats of paint though. That would require them to be the same thing with a new model rather than making up a new thing that remains silly. It's lazy and half the time just makes the game and background worse because there's been no effort put into it.
Some people seem weirdly opposed to me disliking these.
It's because the complaints go directly to stuff Manlet Marines stuff but NO complaints there, so the end justification is really just being "I don't like anything new" at this point.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:What's silly about mobile artillery or gun emplacements for the HQ? You're complaining to complain, simple as that.
... am I agreeing with Slayer-Fan? Yes, I am.
It goes back to something I've been calling the opponents of Primaris on for a while - the things that you're seeing AREN'T NEW. They're concepts and ideas that have already long existed in the Space Marine arsenal, and are simply getting a new coat of paint. Some ornate aspects, some clean flat aspects, some tacticool aspects, blocky vehicles, tracks, hovers, static guns, mobile guns, long ranged precision fire, short range melee brutality - Space Marines cover a LOT of design ground.
Bikes having no ground clearance - no different to the existing bikes.
Wasting a Space Marine on the static turret - no different to Thunderfire Cannons and Rapier Batteries.
The ATV being blocky - have you seen the Rhino?
And, before anyone gets any ideas, I'm not even picking these units up! Why? I just don't like bikes, and the static guns don't really interest me, or the theme of my particular army. If you feel like a certain thing doesn't fit your own army, that's totally valid! Just don't turn around and be all "this is totally unlike all Space Marine things ever!" when that's not the case.
Besides, I'm not picking up the ATV, but I'd so much rather have that than the Attack Bike. How anyone can call the ATV goofy but not the literal sidecar eludes me.
Haters gonna hate, and complaining about a hobby is half the hobby for some people. Of course that's not limited to 40k, It's been true for every hobby I've participated in. I get it, and I've even been guilty of it myself, but being negative all of the time just seems so low effort and unoriginal.
I think the gun would make more sense with a servitor attached and not a Techmarine, thrusters and re-entry shielding. I imagine them like the stormbolters or whatever drop pods have inside, just on a smaler scale...with bigger guns. Autonomous weapons you can drop with your drop pod assault for fire support or have scouts call them in if the have to exfiltrate and need cover fire.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's because the complaints go directly to stuff Manlet Marines stuff but NO complaints there, so the end justification is really just being "I don't like anything new" at this point.
Which doesn't really hold true when I can point at new things released that I do like.
Like the gun turret. The shield and cruciform carraige are reminiscent of a 8.8cm FlaK.
Dislike the ATV. It would be cooler if it actually looked like an ATV. It doesn't look like anything, right now, just a jumble.
Dislike the blade guard & shield captain. To much bling, especially too much non-optional bling. I actually dislike the "gothic gilding" aesthetic, which I also will point out isn't something that was particularly prevalent in the oldmarine line. I prefer the tacticool vanguard and cleaner intercessors that I can decorate myself with chapter-specific bling to the very-much-UM looking overbedecked in greebles bladeguard. Also, i have no real interest in sword/shield marines.
Like the lieutenant, but he's just another lieutenant loadout, so there's nothing good or bad about him.
Dislike the judiciar. He looks really wierd. Don't like the hourglass, don't like the sword, don't like the head, don't like the armor, etc.
Bikes are aesthetically pleasing, but without special weapons and just twin bolt rifles and a chainsword basically they're not really tickling the "I want this in my list" button. Twin BR doesn't cut it for a ranged hunter unit, and chainswords don't cut it for a dedicated melee unit. Maybe a kit will be eventually released that can trade out the chainsword/bolt pistol for maybe plasmaguns or multi-damage melee weapons.
Assault intercessors are seriously meh. Nothing wrong with them aesthetically, but pistol and chainsword footsloggers aren't what I'm looking for.
And given that I completely forgot the gravis melta guys, well, that really says all there is to know what I think about them. Would rather have them with Lascannons or something than meltaguns.
Personally, I'm hoping to see some more tanks. Ideally a tank in the 150-point range.
Like the new chaplain (mostly- the in and out tabard is a ding)
Even-more-better melta weapons aside, I like the look of the gunners (though why they did duplicate poses for a 3- man unit and only a minor pose change for the third is beyond me)
The new chaos warrior/death wizard is really strange to see here.
The rest are merely passable to outright laughable. (though the most laughable ones are outside the box set- the kart and the techmarine booster chair)
Especially the vehicles and anything with a giant brown rectangle that's supposed to be a holster.
I'm not a marine player, so not a lot of skin in the game, but I like some Primaris stuff.
I like both the Redemptor Dread and the Invictus. The quad isn't great, but isn't terrible; I think it goes well with the Invictus- together, they kinda look like a small desert recon force.
I don't have any real problems with any of the Infantry- love eliminators and aggressors; I like the chaplains, and I really like some of the characters (Mephiston especially- I'm actually going to paint my Spacehulk BA Terminators so that I can get him and have something to go with him).
I like the bikes. I've not seen a good still of the sidecar bike, so can't judge that.
Personally, what I dislike most in the range are the hover tanks and the jumpy guys (especially the suppressors, though the other guys look almost as bad to me). The hover tank is my least favourite model of the edition, and might almost be my least favourite model in GW history.
Couldn't get through the first page...If y'all hate them so much, just don't buy them. Are you really going to sit around and waste your time bitching about it on a forum and then arguing about why you're OPINION is correct? FFS.
On the whole i quite like the new models. The Assault Intercessors are what i expected and look pretty cool and the bladeguard look about how i would expect.
I think the bikes look just 'ok' with the main problem imo being how low to the ground they are. I like the scout bikes and FW outrider models better as they look more functional.
The Invader ATV looks weird though, there is no suspension that i can see at the front, and it looks like a cross between a quadbike and go-cart with some silly armour plates on it. the rear suspension reminds me of most of the vehicles from red faction: Guerilla. I imagine the rules will be good, and it will likely be a vehicle so will ignore minus' to hit for moving meaning if its pointed competitively MM's could be an option. However i will likely covert it if i get it, so it looks less absurd. I think GW have missed an opportunity with the invader, FW have already made an ATV that looks awesome in the form of the Elysian Tauros.
If people could keep the topic on what they think of the models, that would be great. Complaining about other people complaining is spam, and will be treated as such going forward, thanks!
Yeah the gun turret looks okay and it makes sense, dedicated one man to a slightly more expensive platform to leverage their position. It provides good frontal protection to the user.
The quad bike on the other hand just seems kind of atrocious.
Sure as others pointed out, the rhino is boxy (it is a metal bawks after all) but its also simple and clean. This thing is busy and boxy in all the wrong ways.
- The armor in the front is non existent, there is that little cross and that's all that's protecting the driver. The gaps to either side just don't make any sense, and make the model look uglier than it has to be IMO.
- The turret would've looked much better as a cupola instead of limiting the arc to the front 90 degrees, Not to mention that the Antennae(?) near the back would constantly be obstructing that already limited traverse. The gunshield does little to protect the gunner and would just obscure his vision.
- Why are the back wheels sporting armor facing towards the vehicle instead of protecting the wheels from getting shot in the back, and why aren't the front wheels armored at all?
I get that people have different taste, but this thing looks like it was trying to hard to be tacticool and forgot to have some semblance to an elite fighting vehicle. If anything it looks more like a Toyota with a mounted 50cal.
Vilehydra wrote: Yeah the gun turret looks okay and it makes sense, dedicated one man to a slightly more expensive platform to leverage their position. It provides good frontal protection to the user.
The quad bike on the other hand just seems kind of atrocious.
Sure as others pointed out, the rhino is boxy (it is a metal bawks after all) but its also simple and clean. This thing is busy and boxy in all the wrong ways.
- The armor in the front is non existent, there is that little cross and that's all that's protecting the driver. The gaps to either side just don't make any sense, and make the model look uglier than it has to be IMO.
- The turret would've looked much better as a cupola instead of limiting the arc to the front 90 degrees, Not to mention that the Antennae(?) near the back would constantly be obstructing that already limited traverse. The gunshield does little to protect the gunner and would just obscure his vision.
- Why are the back wheels sporting armor facing towards the vehicle instead of protecting the wheels from getting shot in the back, and why aren't the front wheels armored at all?
I get that people have different taste, but this thing looks like it was trying to hard to be tacticool and forgot to have some semblance to an elite fighting vehicle. If anything it looks more like a Toyota with a mounted 50cal.
Antenna aerials tend to be able to bend over.
I think the issue is that it doesn't look visually coherently like anything. If it was supposed to be a tacticool dune buggy, it should have looked like a tacticool dune buggy with like an open frame and roll cage.
I like the quad. I will definitely be getting one, probably two*
Does it look a bit absurd? Sure. Wich is why I like it. What's that? You say it lacks ground clearance, obvious suspension, etc etc etc? Yeah, and so do virtually all other Imperial vehicles RT - present & it doesn't bother me with them.... Oh no! The armor protection on the front is tiny, how will they ever survive?? Well I'll counter with "What about the SoB Penintant Engine?" That things got its nekkid prisoner pilot strapped across the front - at least this poor Primaris driver is still wearing his armor & enjoying that tiny T shape of armor.
*I definitely see a pair of Orks taking one of these things for a joy ride.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: [ If it was supposed to be a tacticool dune buggy, it should have looked like a tacticool dune buggy with like an open frame and roll cage.
Clearly it's not supposed to look like a tacticool dune buggy.
My first thought when I saw it was of the Tumbler from the Batman movies. (I wonder if it can be modded to launch a bike when destroyed?)
My second thought was that it'd be a great Ork vehicle.
My 3rd thought was "Well there goes $75".
Poor Techmarines must be the most over-worked brothers in the Chapter
- Repair vehicles
- Accompany Command Squads
- Crew Land Raiders
- Command tank squadrons
- Fly aircraft
- Man Thunderfire Cannons
- Sit on turrets
Voss wrote: Like the new chaplain (mostly- the in and out tabard is a ding)
Even-more-better melta weapons aside, I like the look of the gunners (though why they did duplicate poses for a 3- man unit and only a minor pose change for the third is beyond me)
The new chaos warrior/death wizard is really strange to see here.
The rest are merely passable to outright laughable. (though the most laughable ones are outside the box set- the kart and the techmarine booster chair)
Especially the vehicles and anything with a giant brown rectangle that's supposed to be a holster.
Re. the duplication. I suspect we will see a duplicate sprue, like in DI. Maybe 2 copies of (Melta guy, Bike, 4 intercessors) With another sprue with the sarges and a spare intercessor to bring the squad to 10. Maybe one of the HQs, depending on space.
Which would then be spun off into a Start Collecting! box in a few months.
The blade guard guys look unique enough I don’t think they are shared like that.
Looking forward to leaked sprue pics. Whenever they drop.
ccs wrote: I like the quad. I will definitely be getting one, probably two*
Does it look a bit absurd? Sure. Wich is why I like it. What's that? You say it lacks ground clearance, obvious suspension, etc etc etc? Yeah, and so do virtually all other Imperial vehicles RT - present & it doesn't bother me with them.... Oh no! The armor protection on the front is tiny, how will they ever survive?? Well I'll counter with "What about the SoB Penintant Engine?" That things got its nekkid prisoner pilot strapped across the front - at least this poor Primaris driver is still wearing his armor & enjoying that tiny T shape of armor.
*I definitely see a pair of Orks taking one of these things for a joy ride.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: [ If it was supposed to be a tacticool dune buggy, it should have looked like a tacticool dune buggy with like an open frame and roll cage.
Clearly it's not supposed to look like a tacticool dune buggy.
My first thought when I saw it was of the Tumbler from the Batman movies. (I wonder if it can be modded to launch a bike when destroyed?)
My second thought was that it'd be a great Ork vehicle.
My 3rd thought was "Well there goes $75".
Ah. I've never seen Batman, so I didn't immediately recognize it and just thought it looks like a jumble without real visual definition.
I really like those gravis melta guys. Gravis armour is great design, but it looks much better without the silly giant mittens the aggressors have. I hope we get more gravis-armoured units. I also hope that the melta lads get decent rules; the melta has been a bit questionable weapon choice for a while.
they ever survive?? Well I'll counter with "What about the SoB Penintant Engine?" That things got its nekkid prisoner pilot strapped across the front - at least this poor Primaris driver is still wearing his armor & enjoying that tiny T shape of armor.
The penitent engine is literally for punishment of the pilot. Its in the name, and (at least according to the wiki, so taken with a grain of salt) its reserved for the worst crimes and heresies. Not only do they not care about the pilot, but the pilot is meant to die. The model enforces that ethos. I'm assuming this vehicle isn't some punishment duty for the Primaris.
This vehicle seems like its trying to be a flanker of sorts - (its lightly armed and armored) but many design choices go against that ethos.
If its not trying to be a tacticool dunebuggy - what is it trying to be?
The Mario 40Kart is legitimately hilarious and I want to give them credit for doing it. They've taken the right piss out of Primaris with that, and I, for one, salute them.
The assault intercessors look great if they weren't pushfit single-pose models that just look sad in a squad of 10 where you have repeats. I hope they release a multi-part kit soon so people aren't stuck with those statues.
troa wrote: Couldn't get through the first page...If y'all hate them so much, just don't buy them. Are you really going to sit around and waste your time bitching about it on a forum and then arguing about why you're OPINION is correct? FFS.
If others are having fun, and you can't have fun yourself, then making it so others don't have fun either is something people do all the time.
I wonder how those boxs are going to be split. marines are always popular and people want them. DG was okey for DG and chaos players, at least potentialy. Buying the box, when there is one or no necron players around is going to be harsh on the money.
If you don't have fun because people on the internet don't share your opinion on the aesthetics of tiny plastic soldiers, a message board may not be the best place for you.
The idea that people aren't having fun with the Mario Kart memes is pretty odd. The whole point is obviously that it is fun.
The four wheeled thing looks absolutely dreadful, when I look at it I just think of it as an oversized footpedal driven go-kart and the thought of it actually trying to go fast makes me chuckle, frankly.
The worst part about it is that the onslaught cannon neither looks big enough, important enough or elaborate enough to justify it being something that couldn't be carried by a Primaris marine on foot. And the ammunition seems to be stored in a detachable drum magazine with no other visible ammo stowage. So I guess the gunner has a couple seconds worth of ammunition at most and then calls it a day. Brilliant.
The infantry models all look pretty decent. Bikes are surprisingly decent, even putting aside the ground clearance issue, they're pretty standard fare boxy sci-fi bike stuff.
But oh man, whoever is in charge of designing Imperial vehicles at GW really doesn't have a clue. It's been downhill ever since the Taurox released for the Guard years ago. Aside from the Onager Dunecrawler which I quite like everything else pretty much always makes roll my eyes. I don't like the latest Admech grav landboat thing, I don't like the Primaris tanks, and literally the only reason the re-released SoB vehicles are passable is because they're heavily based on the older designs. Even then the old version of the immolator looked better with the bubble turret cockpit over the new tactical stained glass window look.
I don't see the Quad as being anything other than a proud continuation of Space Marine bike/speeder silliness. These models have always been absurd in various ways. Giant tires, no clearance, melee weapons, hilarious chopper-style seating position.
If anything the quad has a lower ridiculousness quotient than the sidecar bike (which is it's clear spiritual ancestor).
I'm annoyed somewhat by the Eradicators. If anyone should have gotten fancy new melta-guns it was the Sisters of Battle.
Also, I just generally find the handle-on-top firing style to be obnoxious nobody ever shoots any gun like that and yet it's all over the place in 40k. How do you shoot it over something?!Hold the guns normally! This is my 40k pet peeve.
Yeah, I don't think it looks that out of place with the old space marine aesthetic, which always had a certain level of goofiness to it, especially Ultramarines. There's a reason they're called Smurfs.
Some of the humor comes from how out of place it is with the rest of the releases they showed off, though. Lots of grim-dark stuff...and then a Mario 40Kart. It sticks out like a bit of a sore thumb, and that's what's so amusing about it.
Karol wrote:If others are having fun, and you can't have fun yourself, then making it so others don't have fun either is something people do all the time.
That doesn't make it okay, and it's not an excuse.
rbstr wrote:I don't see the Quad as being anything other than a proud continuation of Space Marine bike/speeder silliness. These models have always been absurd in various ways. Giant tires, no clearance, melee weapons, hilarious chopper-style seating position.
If anything the quad has a lower ridiculousness quotient than the sidecar bike (which is it's clear spiritual ancestor).
Yeah, that's how I see it. The Attack Bike has barely any protection, and the way I see it, the power armour is more than enough protection for most things. It's why I quite like the really old fashioned Land Speeder, which is little more than a frame with an engine strapped to it, with the Marines very much exposed.
I think the quad bike could have been done a bit better but it’s a bit orkish in its idea because it seems so impractical and wild. I think it’s a bit too buggy like. But it’s not too bad. I like the turret.
I will deffo get the new box and start a primaris DA successor chapter. But I won’t get a quad bike
Primaris with sword and shield kinda makes grey knights uniqueness ... not so unique.
Makes me believe a grey knight redesign is not about to happen anytime soon.
Also in general Primaris are basically getting everything every other army has and then some. Meanwhile, said other armies are stuck in their "specialty".
Siegfriedfr wrote: Primaris with sword and shield kinda makes grey knights uniqueness ... not so unique.
Makes me believe a grey knight redesign is not about to happen anytime soon.
Also in general Primaris are basically getting everything every other army has and then some. Meanwhile, said other armies are stuck in their "specialty".
I had to do a double-take to make sure you weren't Karol! [no offense intended to you or Karol]
I don't like the new sword & board space marines; they're probably my least favorite of the new SM models previewed. Too much glitz. Nothing wrong with decorative fetishes, but like, the whole baroque gold and eagle stuff is really ultramarine/black templars "knights-in-space"-ey. I really wish they had done them plain with optional decoration so that they could be varied to have any chapters aesthetic rather than UM or BT.
On the other hand, the buggy is growing on me. This guy is looking at a fairly decent weight of anti-infantry firepower from the onslaught gun and twin bolt rifles; so if he's a sub-10-wound platform in the 75 point range [which seems reasonable given how dinky he is and the fact that his alternate weapon is a single multimelta], then he's a good vehicular alternative to dreadnoughts. If only he could take a twin multimelta or other twin light AT weapon, I'd be really keen on having him in my army.
Also in general Primaris are basically getting everything every other army has and then some. Meanwhile, said other armies are stuck in their "specialty".
Did you miss the bit where they're space marines? Being better than everyone else at everything is what the army exists to do. This didn't used to be the case historically in 40k, but it's definitely the case now and has been for a number of years. Even when they were bad at the beginning of 8th, it wasn't because they were bad in the abstract, it's because they weren't points efficient. They were still better than everyone else at more or less everything on a model for model basis.
It's a weird direction to take 40k from a design standpoint, but it's very established at this point.
I've never had an issue with marine stuff being more blocky. The Rhino is based on the real-life M113 which is basically a wedge on tracks, so no problem for me there. The "flying dumpster" that is the Stormraven also works for me. It maintains that brutal "Marine Aesthetic", but also actually does look like it can fly (or at least close enough that I can suspend disbelief). That new ATV? No. Not working for me. It looks "blocky" for no real reason. Like it was designed by someone who has seen marine stuff before but who didn't actually understand the design language.
Mechanically, most of the stuff GW designs wouldn't actually work, but they at least make it look like it would. This thing doesn't. At all. What's the point of armoring up all the sides if you're gonna leave the front axle almost completely uncovered? And look at how the armor around the front wheel hubs is set up - it would very clearly prevent that thing from having any kind of a use-able turning radius. It reminds of what would happen if a baggage car from the airport had a kid with a Power Wheels toy from the 80s. It just feels so half finished and not at all thought out. It's an atv - it should look fast and capable of handling all terrain. "All Terrain" is especially a big deal - it's in the name ... Look at the GSC ATV - awesome. That thing rocks. The marine one looks like it would be great. On a perfectly paved road with no turns, elevation changes or potholes, and provided you weren't in a hurry to get anywhere. I don't usually have strong reactions to models, but I feel like that one just fails on every level for me.
The other Primaris stuff looks cool enough. Like someone else in the thread mentioned, I prefer the more sleek and "plain looking" Primaris stuff as I think it's a interesting contrast to my traditional marines, but I'm glad they decked these out for anyone who wants Primaris but likes the "old-school" Gothic aesthetic.
Loving the Necron stuff! It has me thinking about dusting off my 3rd ed 'Crons!
Siegfriedfr wrote:Primaris with sword and shield kinda makes grey knights uniqueness ... not so unique.
What about them is something that we don't see already in the SM lineup?
The sword and shield? Only one Grey Knight has a storm shield.
The "knightly" helm is already seen on things like the Company Champion, Chapter Champion, Black Templars, and Ultramarine upgrades.
Plenty of other Primaris Marines have the mini-shield, and the ornateness is barely more than what the Sternguard Vets have.
Lord Damocles wrote: Poor Techmarines must be the most over-worked brothers in the Chapter
- Repair vehicles
- Accompany Command Squads
- Crew Land Raiders
- Command tank squadrons
- Fly aircraft
- Man Thunderfire Cannons
- Sit on turrets
Tycho wrote: I've never had an issue with marine stuff being more blocky. The Rhino is based on the real-life M113 which is basically a wedge on tracks, so no problem for me there. The "flying dumpster" that is the Stormraven also works for me. It maintains that brutal "Marine Aesthetic", but also actually does look like it can fly (or at least close enough that I can suspend disbelief). That new ATV? No. Not working for me. It looks "blocky" for no real reason. Like it was designed by someone who has seen marine stuff before but who didn't actually understand the design language.
Mechanically, most of the stuff GW designs wouldn't actually work, but they at least make it look like it would. This thing doesn't. At all. What's the point of armoring up all the sides if you're gonna leave the front axle almost completely uncovered? And look at how the armor around the front wheel hubs is set up - it would very clearly prevent that thing from having any kind of a use-able turning radius. It reminds of what would happen if a baggage car from the airport had a kid with a Power Wheels toy from the 80s. It just feels so half finished and not at all thought out. It's an atv - it should look fast and capable of handling all terrain. "All Terrain" is especially a big deal - it's in the name ... Look at the GSC ATV - awesome. That thing rocks. The marine one looks like it would be great. On a perfectly paved road with no turns, elevation changes or potholes, and provided you weren't in a hurry to get anywhere. I don't usually have strong reactions to models, but I feel like that one just fails on every level for me.
The other Primaris stuff looks cool enough. Like someone else in the thread mentioned, I prefer the more sleek and "plain looking" Primaris stuff as I think it's a interesting contrast to my traditional marines, but I'm glad they decked these out for anyone who wants Primaris but likes the "old-school" Gothic aesthetic.
Loving the Necron stuff! It has me thinking about dusting off my 3rd ed 'Crons!
I don't think the "old school" marines have much of a "deck out gothic aesthetic". It's largely as new as the new tacti-cool aesthetic outside of chapter specific models.
Does a Predator or Vindicator or old school Tactical/Devastator or etc. have a "decked out gothic aesthetic?" Like, that aesthetic is, I think, very chapter-specific to the Black Templars and Ultramarines.
Sisters of Battle have a "decked out gothic aesthetic" [though in the past, all those parts were largely actually optional, and my tanks don't have the decorative bits]. Oldmarines are very plain out of the box, really just like the Intercessors.
The glitzy crap on the sword veterans is really intrusive in a way that the tacticool stuff on the Vanguards wasn't. Like, you can easily still deck up the Vanguards with wolf-pelts and beardyness for the Space Wolves [which I did], but I have no idea what I'm going to do with these guys. They look really Ultramarine no matter how I try to imagine them.
Also in general Primaris are basically getting everything every other army has and then some. Meanwhile, said other armies are stuck in their "specialty".
Did you miss the bit where they're space marines? Being better than everyone else at everything is what the army exists to do. This didn't used to be the case historically in 40k, but it's definitely the case now and has been for a number of years. Even when they were bad at the beginning of 8th, it wasn't because they were bad in the abstract, it's because they weren't points efficient. They were still better than everyone else at more or less everything on a model for model basis.
It's a weird direction to take 40k from a design standpoint, but it's very established at this point.
Well, not quite.
...the better-than-Swooping Hawks (still in finecast!) are Ad Mech!
Lord Damocles wrote: Poor Techmarines must be the most over-worked brothers in the Chapter
- Repair vehicles
- Accompany Command Squads
- Crew Land Raiders
- Command tank squadrons
- Fly aircraft
- Man Thunderfire Cannons
- Sit on turrets
Those last two are their days off.
I mean, "upgunned rocking chair" encapsulates the latter pretty well...
Siegfriedfr wrote:Primaris with sword and shield kinda makes grey knights uniqueness ... not so unique.
What about them is something that we don't see already in the SM lineup?
The sword and shield? Only one Grey Knight has a storm shield.
The "knightly" helm is already seen on things like the Company Champion, Chapter Champion, Black Templars, and Ultramarine upgrades.
Plenty of other Primaris Marines have the mini-shield, and the ornateness is barely more than what the Sternguard Vets have.
What's being taken away from the GK?
The whole paladin aesthetic (sword, shield, knighty look)
Also, ultramarines are (were?) roman-themed, not knight-themed.
As i said, Primaris are vampirizing other armies thematics slowly but surely.
I think the problem with the ATV is that it looks like it should have a front fender/grill/bumper array that wasn't installed to show off the driver's compartment.
Absolutely hate that buggy. Wish they had gone with a polaris slingshot as the base (basically 3 wheeled, whether a reversed trike or not).
Also, the turret strikes me as completely against Marine doctrine. Marines are supposed to be a mobile strike force, that was why the Thunderfire was on treads. Unless those are antigrav plates that allow it to move about, how is it even getting to the battlefield? Furthermore, looks like someone just took a glacis plate from a mark I rhino and glued on two spare lascannons left over from a LR crusader kit. It's a very boring model.
I've collected just about all the marine models - including primaris up until recently and the 9E models just don't tickle my fancy.
Really enjoying the new Primaris models. I remember all the ridicule when the Stormraven, Storm Talon, and Centurions were released. Dig up some of those old threads.
With even more models essentially replacing the existing Marine line, I wonder how much stuff will end up in Legends?
First who let the designers of minecraft work on the new primaris vehicles? ,The quad ATV will be good after I smash it with an ork truck. Once it is properly orkified it won't look like a brick anymore.
The only things I like about the new primaris are:
• Volkite brought back!!111
• Assault interecessors (snapfit doesnt bother me, easy enough to alter poses with minimal conversion work)
Lots of stuff to critique about
• Sword & shield marines? Y no jump packs then if its a melee unit?
• Never going to consider a model with its underwear hanging out like that
• Meltaguns? Srsly? Looks like modified bolt rifles to my eye, just with a cable and a melta muzzle attached
• Static gun emplacement? We already have FW tarantulas.. This just screams "Imperial Guard" and seems redundant. Y not plastic tarantula kit instead?
• MarineKart!! (Emperor hates your weak Hasbro Bro)
Yeah so I'll just keep waiting for the Assault Interecessors to be available separately, thanks. The rest can burn in a pile of prometheum for all I care.. Well the attack bikes are aight but I dont think bikes really suit marines, its among the only legacy thing I dislike about marines (the influence came from Judge Dredd no doubt, just compare the venerable blackshadow bike and the Dredd bikes)
ccs wrote: I like the quad. I will definitely be getting one, probably two*
Does it look a bit absurd? Sure. Wich is why I like it. What's that? You say it lacks ground clearance, obvious suspension, etc etc etc? Yeah, and so do virtually all other Imperial vehicles RT - present & it doesn't bother me with them.... Oh no! The armor protection on the front is tiny, how will they ever survive?? Well I'll counter with "What about the SoB Penintant Engine?" That things got its nekkid prisoner pilot strapped across the front - at least this poor Primaris driver is still wearing his armor & enjoying that tiny T shape of armor.
*I definitely see a pair of Orks taking one of these things for a joy ride.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: [ If it was supposed to be a tacticool dune buggy, it should have looked like a tacticool dune buggy with like an open frame and roll cage.
Clearly it's not supposed to look like a tacticool dune buggy.
My first thought when I saw it was of the Tumbler from the Batman movies. (I wonder if it can be modded to launch a bike when destroyed?)
My second thought was that it'd be a great Ork vehicle.
My 3rd thought was "Well there goes $75".
Ah. I've never seen Batman, so I didn't immediately recognize it and just thought it looks like a jumble without real visual definition.
It's in the three starring Christian Bale. He drives about in a God-awful looking tank thing. Worst Batmobile ever dreamed up screenwise....
Fortunately in every other movie (except the 1940s seriels) he cruises about in assorted street rods (some cooler than others)
Stormonu wrote: Absolutely hate that buggy. Wish they had gone with a polaris slingshot as the base (basically 3 wheeled, whether a reversed trike or not).
Also, the turret strikes me as completely against Marine doctrine. Marines are supposed to be a mobile strike force, that was why the Thunderfire was on treads. Unless those are antigrav plates that allow it to move about, how is it even getting to the battlefield? Furthermore, looks like someone just took a glacis plate from a mark I rhino and glued on two spare lascannons left over from a LR crusader kit. It's a very boring model.
I've collected just about all the marine models - including primaris up until recently and the 9E models just don't tickle my fancy.
Marines do several things. If they were really that much about being a mobile strike force, Devastators and footslogging Dreads wouldn't be a thing. Remember: walking =/= mobile
Looking at the buggy again, I'm just trying to imagine the gunner shooting that straight forward...with the muzzle blast and flash all going off basically right in the drivers face, that thing is just really absurdly designed
The 88-esque visual of the techmarine gun is pretty cool, I'm actually a big fan of the model itself, but looking at it from a background perspective, immobile gun emplacements staffed by specialist command officers with seemingly no delivery/transport method really do not seem to fit the whole Space Marine...thing. I think a Techmarine commanding a unit of these things each with a servitor plugged into them with a logistics vehicle/transport of some sort would have been a much more interesting unit.
Who do you think is winning the battle of the big guns? All of these kits will be available as push fit models – which is good because you’re going to want a lot of them. We can safely say these are hardly the last new kits you’ll see for both Primaris Space Marines and Necrons, including multipart kits, big centrepiece models, and more vehicles. Stay tuned for more information as soon as we have it
Stormonu wrote: Absolutely hate that buggy. Wish they had gone with a polaris slingshot as the base (basically 3 wheeled, whether a reversed trike or not).
Also, the turret strikes me as completely against Marine doctrine. Marines are supposed to be a mobile strike force, that was why the Thunderfire was on treads. Unless those are antigrav plates that allow it to move about, how is it even getting to the battlefield? Furthermore, looks like someone just took a glacis plate from a mark I rhino and glued on two spare lascannons left over from a LR crusader kit. It's a very boring model.
I've collected just about all the marine models - including primaris up until recently and the 9E models just don't tickle my fancy.
Marines do several things. If they were really that much about being a mobile strike force, Devastators and footslogging Dreads wouldn't be a thing. Remember: walking =/= mobile
They Drop Pod and airlift Dreds, and Devs do both of those plus use Rhinos, etc. Marines remain a mobile strike force with Devs and Dreads.
Dropping disposeable robotic turrets like the tarantula makes more sense than a guy in an immobile chair.
Foot slogging 100% = mobile when you're a fixed gun emplacement.
I do think there is a place for Marine fixed guns but they seem super niche and unlikely to be in most Tabletop scenarios. As a Predator's multiple guns are controlled by one Marine I'd expect the fixed guns to have 2-3 remote guns also being controlled by the Techmarine to be consistent.
I don't mind the idea of the tactical quad. I dislike the aesthetic of it. It looks like a cut down Rino, somehow. The bikes don't have much ground clearance, but neither did the old ones, nor did the attack bike I've just built. But I've always head cannoned the Primaris bikes as being active adaptive suspension bikes. It looks like they could be.
For some reason I'd much prefer a 1991 Gulf War Special Forces FAV Dune Buggy design. And will happily make my own if ever Primaris.
I just started an Ultramarines army, so I dont mind seeing them in all the art and boxes, but the only annoying trend I see lately are the bare headed Sergeants, with the teeny red rebreather grills. I'm a fan of Red Helmet bois, but every sergeant has forgotten his helmet!
And since I adhere to the Codex I gotta paint them red even though it just looks so off..
Brother gets promoted to Sergeant through numerous acts of heroism.
"Ok Sergeant! Heres your new red face mask! Dont lose it now! We had to custom order it in that color... And remember to wash your hands frequently."
Buggy looks bad, the rest is ok with the judicator just not being right I feel.
Designs are fairly average on the whole I think, too much trying to be cool and not really thinking each peace though enough.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Primaris with sword and shield kinda makes grey knights uniqueness ... not so unique.
Makes me believe a grey knight redesign is not about to happen anytime soon.
Also in general Primaris are basically getting everything every other army has and then some. Meanwhile, said other armies are stuck in their "specialty".
I had to do a double-take to make sure you weren't Karol! [no offense intended to you or Karol]
II am not easily offened. Also I am happy that GK esthetics are added to primaris models. Maybe this means in the far far future makes GK primaris or at least primaris termintors.
My second thought was that it'd be a great Ork vehicle.
More like a Tau vehicle than an ork one. My first though was that it'd be a great add for Tau armies as it looks more like an upgrade to the fish vehicles than a primarized land speeder/attack bike.
Tycho wrote: I've never had an issue with marine stuff being more blocky. The Rhino is based on the real-life M113 which is basically a wedge on tracks, so no problem for me there. The "flying dumpster" that is the Stormraven also works for me. It maintains that brutal "Marine Aesthetic", but also actually does look like it can fly (or at least close enough that I can suspend disbelief). That new ATV? No. Not working for me. It looks "blocky" for no real reason. Like it was designed by someone who has seen marine stuff before but who didn't actually understand the design language.
Mechanically, most of the stuff GW designs wouldn't actually work, but they at least make it look like it would. This thing doesn't. At all. What's the point of armoring up all the sides if you're gonna leave the front axle almost completely uncovered? And look at how the armor around the front wheel hubs is set up - it would very clearly prevent that thing from having any kind of a use-able turning radius. It reminds of what would happen if a baggage car from the airport had a kid with a Power Wheels toy from the 80s. It just feels so half finished and not at all thought out. It's an atv - it should look fast and capable of handling all terrain. "All Terrain" is especially a big deal - it's in the name ... Look at the GSC ATV - awesome. That thing rocks. The marine one looks like it would be great. On a perfectly paved road with no turns, elevation changes or potholes, and provided you weren't in a hurry to get anywhere. I don't usually have strong reactions to models, but I feel like that one just fails on every level for me.
The other Primaris stuff looks cool enough. Like someone else in the thread mentioned, I prefer the more sleek and "plain looking" Primaris stuff as I think it's a interesting contrast to my traditional marines, but I'm glad they decked these out for anyone who wants Primaris but likes the "old-school" Gothic aesthetic.
Loving the Necron stuff! It has me thinking about dusting off my 3rd ed 'Crons!
I don't think the "old school" marines have much of a "deck out gothic aesthetic". It's largely as new as the new tacti-cool aesthetic outside of chapter specific models.
Does a Predator or Vindicator or old school Tactical/Devastator or etc. have a "decked out gothic aesthetic?" Like, that aesthetic is, I think, very chapter-specific to the Black Templars and Ultramarines.
Don't you mean "Black Templars and Dark Angels"?
I don't recall Ultras being traditionally gothic knights, as sombody else said, they always had a (subtle) Greco-Roman theme going on.
Bikes as combat vehicles is the most stupid thing ever, especially when the rider is a space marine wielding a sword...wtf...I know there are old models like this but in redoing them I figured theyd make them resonable, this is like a 5yo came up with it...
Togusa wrote: Who do you think is winning the battle of the big guns? All of these kits will be available as push fit models – which is good because you’re going to want a lot of them. We can safely say these are hardly the last new kits you’ll see for both Primaris Space Marines and Necrons, including multipart kits, big centrepiece models, and more vehicles. Stay tuned for more information as soon as we have it
I wonder what else is coming?
Big centerpiece model- Silent King on barge
More vehicles- new Monolith
Honestly, marines don’t have big centerpiece models. Not generic ones anyway. Guiliman (and eventually any of his brother primarchs that show up) is pretty much it. FW sells some super heavy tanks, but I don’t see anything bigger then a LR/Repulsor coming out of GW proper in plastic.
The gun turret is a weird for me. It's not like we don't have a techmarine manning a TF cannon previously, but the fact that he actually has to sit on it and aim it....instead of using all of his sensors and controlling it remotely? That part I don't get. Weapon choice is an odd one too. You have suppressors....so why a techmarine with a gun that does what 2 suppressors do just fine? Seems like a lot of unnecessary bloat. An indirect fire weapon might have been better. Eldar tech in this area just looks so much better.
The quad is just butt ugly, no getting around it. I don't think it's beyond hope though, it's just the front that needs work. The wheels nee to be brought forward and maybe closer together (thinking of making it a trike). The bolters need to be elevated, unless the only use for them is kneecapping. They should have been up toward the top of the shield, the way that bolters fit onto current bikes. Like the gun turret, I'm not sure it's a weapon system that's needed (think I'd prefer to stick with landspeeder assault cannon and heavy bolter). The MM option is especially odd. I guess I don't get the Primaris design philosophy sometimes. You get tanks and dreads with just weapons everywhere, then they add this and cut the firepower way down to old marine levels (which I'm fine with, shooting with a repulsor is just a nightmare, so dumb). I just wish it were consistent. The quad should have had some type of grenade firing weapon too.
The marines inside the box are all good for me. They won't go in the same armies for sure, but I hope I won't need more than one copy (Dark Angels, Ravenguard, Deathwatch). My Ravenguard are all infantry so the Eradicators will be great as I need the extra AT. The bikes will definitely go to my Ravenwing. The assault intercessors will probably go to my Ravenguard, or Deathwatch (depending on what is allowed for Deathwatch...it was said they could use these contents). Not sure on the Ancient. Bladeguard probably to the Dark Angels..they have the vibe. Judiciar to the Dark Angels. Not sure on Chaplain. Lt and captain to Dark Angels.
Again, any of those character might be great for the Deathwatch too, just not sure. Financially I don't think I can justify 2 boxes.
Stormonu wrote: Absolutely hate that buggy. Wish they had gone with a polaris slingshot as the base (basically 3 wheeled, whether a reversed trike or not).
Also, the turret strikes me as completely against Marine doctrine. Marines are supposed to be a mobile strike force, that was why the Thunderfire was on treads. Unless those are antigrav plates that allow it to move about, how is it even getting to the battlefield? Furthermore, looks like someone just took a glacis plate from a mark I rhino and glued on two spare lascannons left over from a LR crusader kit. It's a very boring model.
I've collected just about all the marine models - including primaris up until recently and the 9E models just don't tickle my fancy.
Marines do several things. If they were really that much about being a mobile strike force, Devastators and footslogging Dreads wouldn't be a thing. Remember: walking =/= mobile
They Drop Pod and airlift Dreds, and Devs do both of those plus use Rhinos, etc. Marines remain a mobile strike force with Devs and Dreads.
Dropping disposeable robotic turrets like the tarantula makes more sense than a guy in an immobile chair.
Not if those Drop Pods aren't taken in your list and the Devastators are sitting in a fortification of some kind. Oh look, a niche for the Turret right there.
Also if the Techmarine is shooting better in the chair it makes more sense than the computers.
Soulless wrote: Bikes as combat vehicles is the most stupid thing ever, especially when the rider is a space marine wielding a sword...wtf...I know there are old models like this but in redoing them I figured theyd make them resonable, this is like a 5yo came up with it...
How so? Bikes (except for the stupid quad thing) are fine in 40k. I feel this needs drilling in again, despite a lot of the new minis making this obvious (or do we have memories of goldfish and think Marines are tacticool now? Even basic Intercessors have a bloody tilting plate... ) Space Marines are knights in space. The bike is subbed in for the horse in this case.
Sorry, we've had Primaris that looked cool since the Phobos stuff dropped!
Oh, you mean that look cool to you?
But for reals:
The nonsense about them 'looking proper' or 'knights in space' is no different than non-Primaris stuff. If you're getting Chapter upgrade gubbins or going out and detailing stuff yourself, you'll get stuff you like. I'm personally glad they went fairly plain to start with because removing all that nonsense was one of the harder parts for me finding a Raven Guard list I liked before.
Soulless wrote: Bikes as combat vehicles is the most stupid thing ever, especially when the rider is a space marine wielding a sword...wtf...I know there are old models like this but in redoing them I figured theyd make them resonable, this is like a 5yo came up with it...
How so? Bikes (except for the stupid quad thing) are fine in 40k. I feel this needs drilling in again, despite a lot of the new minis making this obvious (or do we have memories of goldfish and think Marines are tacticool now? Even basic Intercessors have a bloody tilting plate... ) Space Marines are knights in space. The bike is subbed in for the horse in this case.
I don’t mind the bikes, jut wish they put the weapons on some sort of mechanism to move and turn, so they don’t need a heavy bike direction to be right on target. And I think it would fit marines to have that over another bike guy holding a pistal like a derp.
The quad really suffers from the photo they're using to advertise it being taken at a terrible angle. It looks better in the turntable shots from the video, but I'd still do some reworking if I ever got one. Rotate the arms that hold the back wheels (I assume they rotate, based on that round bit) and figure out a way to angle the front wheels down as well to give it some actual ground clearance. Then maybe ditch the gunner and convert the mounted gun into a razorback style turret that included the bolt rifles (leaving a tiny cargo area that'd get filled with spare kit for the quad and accompanying bikes), but just giving it some height might be enough. It does match the new bikes, though, and manages to be less ridiculous than an attack bike, at least.
As for the Assault Intercessors, if you look at their sprues you can see that they're only monopose if you lack the means of getting them off the sprue in the first place. Clipping them at the flat shoulder joint and ball socket of the neck (instead of clipping slightly back and leaving the little plastic pin) gets you multi-pose kits with zero effort. Legs and torsos are matched, but that's it. I can see whipping up some running guys with bolt rifles, at least, unless foot slogging melee somehow becomes usable in 9th (not that I see losing the rifle on a unit with three attacks already is really ever going to be worth it).
Sadly, it looks like those enormous holsters are going to be a little annoying to remove from the shield guys, as they're molded to the robes on two of them (though a few scrolls will cover my sins). At least on the Intercessors they're hanging off to one side with minimal attachment points and should be easy to pop off before assembly. I know they fit the heroic scale weapons 40k uses, but they just focus too much light on the oddities we accept for the scale.
I'm not seeing where people are getting Ultramarine aesthetics, though. All the extra bling is BT or DA styled, not the light roman-y bits the Ultras use. There's not a single crested helmet or pteruge anywhere.
I mean, I didn't exactly make it a secret that I think Phobos stuff looks cool. It's why I even added a winky face when I said that part. Opinions are opinions. You're welcome to want the busy, over the top look. I don't. It's why I've gone Primaris for my Raven Guard and will be sticking with Phobos and Intercessor styled stuff, avoiding the Blade Guard, Chaplains, etc. I'm digging the Eradicators though, and even the bikes have grown on me.
The difference is though that what you like versus what I like? You aren't going to have to resculpt swathes of areas to add to the design, where I will removing the extraneous stuff that makes them look like walking temples. There's bits that you might not have thought of looking at which can vastly improve an Intercessor for the more 'gothic' look you're after. There aren't really bits that allow for me to remove that gothic look.
Here I'll even help you with a few bits that you can likely beg, borrow, or steal that look great as tabards for Intercessors:
Spoiler:
Those come two to a Venerable Dreadnought box and I genuinely can't think of too many people who likely used them. They're optional bits that don't like to stay on the Dreadnoughts themselves. But they fit perfectly on Intercessors! One of the GW Community team used them in a White Dwarf(September 2018 "A Return to Middle Earth") for part of his Deathwatch Kill-Team, alongside of the Venerable Dreadnought 'Crusader' styled helm to make some Black Templars.
I mean, I didn't exactly make it a secret that I think Phobos stuff looks cool. It's why I even added a winky face when I said that part. Opinions are opinions. You're welcome to want the busy, over the top look. I don't. It's why I've gone Primaris for my Raven Guard and will be sticking with Phobos and Intercessor styled stuff, avoiding the Blade Guard, Chaplains, etc. I'm digging the Eradicators though, and even the bikes have grown on me.
Thats fair. Sorry, I thought it might be a winky face. I moused over it but it didn't say what it was. Sometimes the Orkmoticons are hard to read.
Thank you for your conversion suggestions. I'll look into those.
I've been currently trying to figure out how to kit bash Repulsars and Exorsists/Immolators together.
bullyboy wrote: The gun turret is a weird for me. It's not like we don't have a techmarine manning a TF cannon previously, but the fact that he actually has to sit on it and aim it....instead of using all of his sensors and controlling it remotely? That part I don't get. Weapon choice is an odd one too. You have suppressors....so why a techmarine with a gun that does what 2 suppressors do just fine? Seems like a lot of unnecessary bloat. An indirect fire weapon might have been better. Eldar tech in this area just looks so much better.
More so than the Thunderfire Cannon, what confuses and irritates me is that they keep adding Heresy era throwback elements to the Primaris but then we just get this stationary turret thing.
It could easily have been a Primaris update to the Rapier...
I think I'll probably have to get one or two of the turrets just to mount on treads and restore my own mental sanity.
bullyboy wrote: The gun turret is a weird for me. It's not like we don't have a techmarine manning a TF cannon previously, but the fact that he actually has to sit on it and aim it....instead of using all of his sensors and controlling it remotely? That part I don't get. Weapon choice is an odd one too. You have suppressors....so why a techmarine with a gun that does what 2 suppressors do just fine? Seems like a lot of unnecessary bloat. An indirect fire weapon might have been better. Eldar tech in this area just looks so much better.
More so than the Thunderfire Cannon, what confuses and irritates me is that they keep adding Heresy era throwback elements to the Primaris but then we just get this stationary turret thing.
It could easily have been a Primaris update to the Rapier...
I think I'll probably have to get one or two of the turrets just to mount on treads and restore my own mental sanity.
What confuses and irritates me is that they keep adding Heresy era throwback elements to the primaris but not to the faction who actually fought in the Heresy. *Cough* csm *cough*
Why is the ammo feed for the platform gun outside the gunshield? That seems....illogical. Clearing jams and evem reloading is going to be hard without anti - KISS features.
From the Indomitus box, I like the look of the "not-Cassius" Chaplain model. Feels a bit more in line with older designs compared to the original trenchcoat-sporting Primaris Chaplain. No real interest in the rest, but I do like the look of the bikes and assault Intercessors.
My Marines are a homebrew Fists successor based around fortification and counter-siege, so I already had lore justification for Tarantulas. The new turrets are basically a 2-for-1 deal for me: good potential for a plastic Tarantula/unmanned turret conversion while also supplying bits for a Primaris Techmarine conversion I've had planned for a while now.
The ATV is remarkably...fine, I guess? The memes have been hilarious, but the design isn't that bad. Will probably pick one up eventually just to convert it for fun - thinking raised suspension, armor for the front wheels, moving the gun to a rail-style mount like on the Land Speeder, and possibly a Stormhawk-style armored driver's compartment or Invictor-style roll cage.
Only one Grey Knight has a shield, and that's a special character. Meanwhile, storm shields have been widely available to Space Marines for decades, and the beaver-style helmet was already long in use by Black Templars. And, again, Space Marines are also pretty well described as "knights in space" - that's not a Grey Knight thing only.
What I'd call the "unique" features of Grey Knights is EVERYONE getting power weapons, wrist-mounted guns, and their psychic prowess. The helmets on one Veteran Space Marine squad don't mean that Grey Knights are loosing their uniqueness. I mean, look at the Emperor's Champion model! He looks VERY knightly, and he's been out for a VERY long time.
Also, ultramarines are (were?) roman-themed, not knight-themed.
Romans being well known for their shields. And these are *generic* models, not Ultramarine exclusive. These Marines can be designed as Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, even Space Wolves - and besides, can you really tell me that regular Mark VII Space Marines look "roman" to you?
Ultramarines have a greco-roman aesthetic, but it's not EVERYWHERE - it's usually relegated to unique units, or applied at the discretion of the hobbyist.
As i said, Primaris are vampirizing other armies thematics slowly but surely.
I mean, not really any more than Space Marines already did.
tauist wrote:• Sword & shield marines? Y no jump packs then if its a melee unit?
There's plenty of "melee" units with no jump packs. Honour Guard, for one, which I'm planning on using these Bladeguard as.
• Meltaguns? Srsly? Looks like modified bolt rifles to my eye, just with a cable and a melta muzzle attached
In much the same way that regular meltaguns don't exactly look far off from bolters (with, as said, a cable instead of a magazine, and the melta muzzle - I've outright used spare bolters to convert meltaguns, in fact!)
I don't think the "old school" marines have much of a "deck out gothic aesthetic". It's largely as new as the new tacti-cool aesthetic outside of chapter specific models.
Does a Predator or Vindicator or old school Tactical/Devastator or etc. have a "decked out gothic aesthetic?" Like, that aesthetic is, I think, very chapter-specific to the Black Templars and Ultramarines.
Don't you mean "Black Templars and Dark Angels"?
I don't recall Ultras being traditionally gothic knights, as sombody else said, they always had a (subtle) Greco-Roman theme going on.
Sure. I've always thought of the UM as being pretty decked out in glitz, though, and DA as being shadowy Illuminati in cloaks with like obscured markings kind of guys.
The quad thing is growing on me. Specifically, the idea of an Onslaught Gatling Gun and 2 Bolt Rifles on a M14" W<10 cheap VEHICLE platform. In that capacity it'll be a nice vehicular alternative to a dreadnought. If only it could take a twin-linked AT weapon instead of a single multi-melta; and single multi-melta does not go far.
A bull bar and roll cage will drastically improve it's appearance to make it look a little more off-road dune-buggy and less go-kart. Here's hoping that given how dinky the thing is, it and the turrets will be sold 2 for 40 like Pengines are, because I actually want both of them [and a lot more than I want the rest of the box]
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Romans being well known for their shields. And these are *generic* models, not Ultramarine exclusive. These Marines can be designed as Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, even Space Wolves - and besides, can you really tell me that regular Mark VII Space Marines look "roman" to you?
Ultramarines have a greco-roman aesthetic, but it's not EVERYWHERE - it's usually relegated to unique units, or applied at the discretion of the hobbyist.
I definitely don't think the glitz on the bladeguard is very space wolf looking. I'll probably have to find a way to convert them to have axes and roundshields or something suitably vikingry.
Togusa wrote: Who do you think is winning the battle of the big guns? All of these kits will be available as push fit models – which is good because you’re going to want a lot of them. We can safely say these are hardly the last new kits you’ll see for both Primaris Space Marines and Necrons, including multipart kits, big centrepiece models, and more vehicles. Stay tuned for more information as soon as we have it
I wonder what else is coming?
Big centerpiece model- Silent King on barge
More vehicles- new Monolith
No idea for primaris
If I had a wishlist, I'd like to see a replacement for the Whirlwind or a new type of dreadnought. Perhaps Drop Pod.
godardc wrote: Hi guys,
I have just seen (eventually) all the new content and units in high quality, and I must say : those primaris look neat !
I have to say: FINALLY !
Do you now see why we were complaining about lack of gothic aesthetic earlier ? With models such as those, I could (and maybe will one day...) make a full primaris Black Templar army worthy of its predecessors. There isn't a lot to say, they are great sculpt with a beautiful aesthetic and I can finally see me buying primaris.
Has any of you noticed that / changed his mind ?
Nah, I go to into Primaris for the sleek looks of the first waves. I like clean armour, not taberknackles. Can't say I'm a huge fan of the over the to
Crusader look, but I a man glad folks that like that kind of stuff get theirs. Then again, I am a Raptors player and will adapt. I will concert my sword and shield dudes with third party stuff.
I cut so many seals off my DI primaris to keep the sleek look, and then they go release this! I think all the new models look cool but it does annoy me how there is now two very different aesthetics over the primaris range, and how I'm going to have a load of marines with this Indomitus iconography on them and loads without.
People say the quad is lame, but if it is undercosted for the gun it carries or has other gun options that are cheap and efficient, they are still going to buy them.
Hey, some people here say that armies are build based on how models look, and that it is the wrong way to play to pick stuff based on power.
It would be cool if the quad had some synergy or utility rule. Like all bikes in 6" get an X rule, or with in a certain range of the quad opponents can't reserve or get over watched etc.
If it is just an overcosted bike with a str 4 gun and two bolters, it ain't going to see much use. specialy if it is a non vehicle and get -1 to hit after move.
yukishiro1 wrote: Do you mean to tell me that people will use fugly models if they're the most powerful choice?
I'm shocked! Shocked!
Yeah some WAAC dudes do that, but not everyone thankfully. I've never bought a model that I don't like and if I really wanted to field that ugly unit I've always converted it, see Flash Gitz or Weirdboyz as a reference. There isn't (and never will be) a single primaris in my SW army, I can't stand those big clunky dudes and no matter how competitve they are they'll never be part of my collection anyway.
Am I the only one who doesn't get the heavy Gothic aesthetic of the Primaris?
In the old Marines you're entering a 10 000 year history of venerated relics and technology that's bordering on Cargo Cult, you don't know any better because the mysticism surrounding both the tech and the relics is ingrained deeply into the ethos of the Chapter you are joining. You have relics, you have saints and iconography, history and everything that you're joining.
Along come Primaris. New out the vat with brand new equipment but the iconography and traditions of ages past?
Kayback wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't get the heavy Gothic aesthetic of the Primaris?
In the old Marines you're entering a 10 000 year history of venerated relics and technology that's bordering on Cargo Cult, you don't know any better because the mysticism surrounding both the tech and the relics is ingrained deeply into the ethos of the Chapter you are joining. You have relics, you have saints and iconography, history and everything that you're joining.
Along come Primaris. New out the vat with brand new equipment but the iconography and traditions of ages past?
Seems.... Illogical.
Keep in mind that while the chapters are ancient, the marines themselves are not. Cassius is the oldest Ultramarine, and is 400 years old (ish, depending on timeline) and has seen multiple chapter masters.
IIRC the indominus crusade was a lengthy affair. You have primaris marines who might have started vat-fresh, but after 100 years fighting alongside their brothers, earned their veterancy. So why would a chapter not treat them the same way they would the rest of their kin? The old relics might not fit, but the chapter’s techmarines and artisans can work something up to match the valor of their larger brothers. Might incorperate fragments of old stuff, or new-forged to match the nature of the primaris.
Kayback wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't get the heavy Gothic aesthetic of the Primaris?
In the old Marines you're entering a 10 000 year history of venerated relics and technology that's bordering on Cargo Cult, you don't know any better because the mysticism surrounding both the tech and the relics is ingrained deeply into the ethos of the Chapter you are joining. You have relics, you have saints and iconography, history and everything that you're joining.
Along come Primaris. New out the vat with brand new equipment but the iconography and traditions of ages past?
Seems.... Illogical.
Still this vat thing... Can't we already be done with this misinformation? Maybe read a marine codex or something?
The Primaris are now just normal marines, recruited and trained by the chapters, and have been for over a century. Also, some are upgraded older marines. Only the first batch were from Mars, and they were not vat-grown either.
Maybe I wasn't clear, but as a new recruit or especially on planets that tithe recruits you're joining an old institution. You're brought up into that institution and molded by it.
As a fully fledged Marine with battle gear that's newer than they are using, stepping into the field then I don't see the old traditions being maintained.
New traditions may be built up over time, but that's something you can see. Cain's book talks about that, doing away with the 301 + 296 traditions and building traditions as the 597th. While that isn't really the same having a flood of new members who aren't recruits molded by the Chapter... I just don't see the old traditions surviving that.
Yet the Primaris seem to have doubled down on the GrimDarkGothic.
Even these guys
When you compare it to the "streamlined" fighty Marines:
I dunno. It just seems like they rolled in the bits box of icons, relics, skulls and spare armour pieces as opposed to a newly developed and deployed fighting force.
Still this vat thing... Can't we already be done with this misinformation? Maybe read a marine codex or something?
The Primaris are now just normal marines, recruited and trained by the chapters, and have been for over a century. Also, some are upgraded older marines. Only the first batch were from Mars, and they were not vat-grown either.
I'll grant you the "vat thing" was hyperbole and maybe I overused it. But the initial influx was definitely not reared in the Chapter.
Kayback wrote: Maybe I wasn't clear, but as a new recruit or especially on planets that tithe recruits you're joining an old institution. You're brought up into that institution and molded by it.
Yes, and that is what the current primaris are.
As a fully fledged Marine with battle gear that's newer than they are using, stepping into the field then I don't see the old traditions being maintained.
But apart the first batch this is not what the primaris are.
Crispy78 wrote: 40K is GrimDarkGothic, not just the old space marines.
Yeah but the Primaris seem to have taken it to 11, for no real reason.
But maybe I'm just over thinking it. I was enjoying the sleeker, more focused fighting aspect look of the Primaris. Now they seem almost like a caricature of the legacy Marines.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Sure. I've always thought of the UM as being pretty decked out in glitz, though, and DA as being shadowy Illuminati in cloaks with like obscured markings kind of guys.
Plenty of Chapters are decked out in finery - Dark Angels included. They're still a very proud Chapter, but it's more of an aloof, detached pride. Deathwing Terminators, for example, definitely have their glitz and glam.
In all fairness, MOST Chapters have a great deal of bling for their Veteran units (which is what the Bladeguard are), the real question being what form that bling takes - Chapters like the Space Wolves and White Scars will absolutely have bling and personal markings, but in a different fashion - furs, topknots, hanging skulls and totems, etc. Looking at the Bladeguard, it's really only the tabard, helmet, and shield shape that don't look super congruous with the Wolves and Scars - a thin layer of green stuff over the top of the tabard with a fur texture, a more rounded shield, and a bare head from an upgrade sprue would go a long way.
Some examples I've found of photoshopping other Chapters onto the examples we've seen look promising:
Spoiler:
I definitely don't think the glitz on the bladeguard is very space wolf looking. I'll probably have to find a way to convert them to have axes and roundshields or something suitably vikingry.
Honestly, a furred tabard, a headswap, and shield would be enough for my tastes.
Nevelon wrote:
Kayback wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't get the heavy Gothic aesthetic of the Primaris?
In the old Marines you're entering a 10 000 year history of venerated relics and technology that's bordering on Cargo Cult, you don't know any better because the mysticism surrounding both the tech and the relics is ingrained deeply into the ethos of the Chapter you are joining. You have relics, you have saints and iconography, history and everything that you're joining.
Along come Primaris. New out the vat with brand new equipment but the iconography and traditions of ages past?
Seems.... Illogical.
Keep in mind that while the chapters are ancient, the marines themselves are not. Cassius is the oldest Ultramarine, and is 400 years old (ish, depending on timeline) and has seen multiple chapter masters.
IIRC the indominus crusade was a lengthy affair. You have primaris marines who might have started vat-fresh, but after 100 years fighting alongside their brothers, earned their veterancy. So why would a chapter not treat them the same way they would the rest of their kin? The old relics might not fit, but the chapter’s techmarines and artisans can work something up to match the valor of their larger brothers. Might incorperate fragments of old stuff, or new-forged to match the nature of the primaris.
Exactly - Primaris might be "new" on a galactic scale, but when they were introduced, they're be plenty of non-Primaris being inducted at the same time, and still will be non-Primaris inducted during and after the Indomitus Crusade. By this point in the timeline, Primaris Marines are, by and large, well integrated into their Chapters, and would be honoured respectively - and we know how Space Marines like to bling up their Veterans.
Kayback wrote:I was enjoying the sleeker, more focused fighting aspect look of the Primaris. Now they seem almost like a caricature of the legacy Marines.
You're comparing Bladeguard Veterans to line troopers. You'd have the same thing if you were comparing Sternguard Veterans to Tactical Marines - Veterans get all the bling, whereas the baseline Marines get minimal amounts of bling.
This isn't a "Primaris are all too blingy!" case - you're looking at explicitly Veteran units, and expecting them to look like regular troops, which is something that the Marine aesthetic doesn't really do.
If you start considering that the Bladeguard are probably First Company Vets (or in that echelon), them being so blinged up makes a lot of sense. They don't represent the rank-and-file, who *do* have that focused aspect. If you want that sleek, unadorned look, don't take any Bladeguard Vets, or convert some.
I was excited for new models for my marines, I might buy the bikes and maybe a Judiciar but most of the other models are pretty uninteresting for me. The new invaders seems pretty terrible and I am not planning on buying them at all.
Kayback wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't get the heavy Gothic aesthetic of the Primaris?
In the old Marines you're entering a 10 000 year history of venerated relics and technology that's bordering on Cargo Cult, you don't know any better because the mysticism surrounding both the tech and the relics is ingrained deeply into the ethos of the Chapter you are joining. You have relics, you have saints and iconography, history and everything that you're joining.
Along come Primaris. New out the vat with brand new equipment but the iconography and traditions of ages past?
Seems.... Illogical.
Still this vat thing... Can't we already be done with this misinformation? Maybe read a marine codex or something?
The Primaris are now just normal marines, recruited and trained by the chapters, and have been for over a century. Also, some are upgraded older marines. Only the first batch were from Mars, and they were not vat-grown either.
So, every single Cawl-made Primaris is dead?
I'm not disagreeing with you, but that is what you are implying. There are bound to be plenty of them left still in the chapters.
The Awoken(the title given to them in the Codex Space Marines fluff) were heavily indoctrinated and basically intended for one of the specific roles(Close Support, Battleline, Fire Support). Most are implied to have been recruited from the ranks of initiates from the Legions, experimented upon for the Primaris treatments and then put into stasis if it was successful. They're what formed the ranks of Intercessors, Hellblasters, Reivers, and Aggressors early on. Since their integration with their parent Chapters, they retain the roles they had but most are starting to adopt Chapter quirks.
pm713 wrote: Having seen the new turret/quadbike my mind has definitely changed. I went from "I'm not a fan but they look alright" to "they're awful and I hate them".
The only new thing I've seen recently I like is the Starcraft ripoff.
OK so idk if YOU know this but Starcraft was an original comissioned by GamesWorkshop as a standalone game, but then they backed out of the project and the company (Blizzard PRETTY sure) ran with it and remade some of the assets. So to call it a "Starcraft" ripoff would be like calling LEGO a ripoff of MEGABLOX or ROBLOX a ripoff of Minecraft.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm really excited for the new Chaplain model and am a huge fan of the Lieutenant with the shield and the shield models. I don't run any melee units in my Imperial Fist list, but that LT + those shield units makes me want to throw them on the board and walk them up with Tor Gardon or the other guy and just smash. Not a fan of the bikes though, never have been they just don't FEEL right? Like they have hover tech why not integrate that into the bikes....
The Awoken(the title given to them in the Codex Space Marines fluff) were heavily indoctrinated and basically intended for one of the specific roles(Close Support, Battleline, Fire Support). Most are implied to have been recruited from the ranks of initiates from the Legions, experimented upon for the Primaris treatments and then put into stasis if it was successful. They're what formed the ranks of Intercessors, Hellblasters, Reivers, and Aggressors early on. Since their integration with their parent Chapters, they retain the roles they had but most are starting to adopt Chapter quirks.
They sort of referenced this in the Warhammer Daily today when they were talking about the new Primaris having all the bling; the wave from Cawl at the beginning of the Crusade were basically just dropped into their Chapters, where as by now, the Indomitus Crusade has been going for 200 years, so they've absorbed the culture of their chapters and in most cases are fully integrated, hence more chapter specific customization of armour and weapons.
Whether you like the changing aesthetic or not, I do think it's cool that it is actually linked to the story and that it is a conscious design choice, rather than just a "Hey, lets try something wacky- how about bones on the shield?"
OK so idk if YOU know this but Starcraft was an original comissioned by GamesWorkshop as a standalone game, but then they backed out of the project and the company (Blizzard PRETTY sure) ran with it and remade some of the assets. So to call it a "Starcraft" ripoff would be like calling LEGO a ripoff of MEGABLOX or ROBLOX a ripoff of Minecraft.
This is not true. When initially planning Warcraft, Blizzard was negotiating with GW for a Warhammer Fantasy licence. Blizzard didn't manage to acquire licence, but had already made some art assets, and decided to make the game anyway, thus Warcraft was born. And as ripping-off GW had worked well for them, Blizzard later decided to rip-off 40K too, and made Starcraft. But there weren't any negotiations with GW then.
The Awoken(the title given to them in the Codex Space Marines fluff) were heavily indoctrinated and basically intended for one of the specific roles(Close Support, Battleline, Fire Support). Most are implied to have been recruited from the ranks of initiates from the Legions, experimented upon for the Primaris treatments and then put into stasis if it was successful. They're what formed the ranks of Intercessors, Hellblasters, Reivers, and Aggressors early on. Since their integration with their parent Chapters, they retain the roles they had but most are starting to adopt Chapter quirks.
Pretty much, yeah. Another distinction is that the first batch of Primaris weren't actually trained for any role other than the one they were assigned to. Aka, if you were trained as an Intercessor, you would only fight as an Intercessor. This is in contrast to the later batches of Primaris, who were trained to take on any role, and utilise the modular nature of their armour more fully.
And yes, while the initial batches of Primaris were more generic (although they definitely had strong knowledge and some traits of their original Legions), when they became more fully integrated into the Chapters, they took on far more features and styles from their new family.
Think of it sort of like the Clone army in Star Wars - the initial Phase I Clones had very little individuality and had very plain, unmarked armour, with only Legion commanders having coloured markings. However, as the war grew on, clones grew more individualistic, made personalised markings, and increasingly took on nicknames, and even the way ranks and Legions were identified on the battlefield changed. I imagine a similar thing is occurring with Primaris Marines from that first batch.
OK so idk if YOU know this but Starcraft was an original comissioned by GamesWorkshop as a standalone game, but then they backed out of the project and the company (Blizzard PRETTY sure) ran with it and remade some of the assets. So to call it a "Starcraft" ripoff would be like calling LEGO a ripoff of MEGABLOX or ROBLOX a ripoff of Minecraft.
This is not true. When initially planning Warcraft, Blizzard was negotiating with GW for a Warhammer Fantasy licence. Blizzard didn't manage to acquire licence, but had already made some art assets, and decided to make the game anyway, thus Warcraft was born. And as ripping-off GW had worked well for them, Blizzard later decided to rip-off 40K too, and made Starcraft. But there weren't any negotiations with GW then.
Think of it sort of like the Clone army in Star Wars - the initial Phase I Clones had very little individuality and had very plain, unmarked armour, with only Legion commanders having coloured markings. However, as the war grew on, clones grew more individualistic, made personalised markings, and increasingly took on nicknames, and even the way ranks and Legions were identified on the battlefield changed. I imagine a similar thing is occurring with Primaris Marines from that first batch.
Kayback wrote: Maybe I wasn't clear, but as a new recruit or especially on planets that tithe recruits you're joining an old institution. You're brought up into that institution and molded by it.
As a fully fledged Marine with battle gear that's newer than they are using, stepping into the field then I don't see the old traditions being maintained.
New traditions may be built up over time, but that's something you can see. Cain's book talks about that, doing away with the 301 + 296 traditions and building traditions as the 597th. While that isn't really the same having a flood of new members who aren't recruits molded by the Chapter... I just don't see the old traditions surviving that.
Yet the Primaris seem to have doubled down on the GrimDarkGothic.
Even these guys
When you compare it to the "streamlined" fighty Marines:
I dunno. It just seems like they rolled in the bits box of icons, relics, skulls and spare armour pieces as opposed to a newly developed and deployed fighting force.
Still this vat thing... Can't we already be done with this misinformation? Maybe read a marine codex or something?
The Primaris are now just normal marines, recruited and trained by the chapters, and have been for over a century. Also, some are upgraded older marines. Only the first batch were from Mars, and they were not vat-grown either.
I'll grant you the "vat thing" was hyperbole and maybe I overused it. But the initial influx was definitely not reared in the Chapter.
I think it's important to remember that Primaris are nothing more than a long and worded attempt at replacing the marine range.
Make no mistake, while the result has been to dress everything up in fancy language and rewrite aspects of the lore, the end goal is that marines are now taller. Nothing more, nothing less. So it makes sense that they are starting to look like their older cousins rather than some new sleek weird design. They sell well, the product has been proven so now GW will take to adding in the bits that make marines look like marines.
To be honest I wish GW had just squatted the old marines and re-released them. At this rate it's taken nearly 3 years to get Primaris armies to be almost playable outside of super fluff games. Designing a thematic army is extremely difficult because huge swaths of roles are left unfilled and we don't know what is coming year to year.
Also, at this point we've had a major Marine release each year since launch. For a time we all thought it was going to follow the armor patterns, Phobos/Gravis, Etc. But it looks like that will not be the case (at least not in order) which I find to be interesting. We're still missing a Primaris MBT, Jump Pack Infantry and some a lot of characters (Where is out tech marine?).
But you can't use your classic marines as the new tall marines. And armies that can't take primaris get no updates, even when GW says that marines get a ton of updates.
And it doesn't look as if in the future people are going to be able to use their classic models at all. That doesn't seem to have been the case in the past. I have seen people play with really small rhinos, with oblits that are the size of my strike marines.
So even if one ignores the lore, people still aren't happy about the change. Not many people want to rebuy a whole army, just because GW decided marines should be taller and have bigger bases.
Gadzilla666 wrote: You don't consider the repulsor executioner to be a MBT?
Fair, I supposed. I mean a Predator equivalent though, no transport capacity.
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Karol wrote: But you can't use your classic marines as the new tall marines. And armies that can't take primaris get no updates, even when GW says that marines get a ton of updates.
And it doesn't look as if in the future people are going to be able to use their classic models at all. That doesn't seem to have been the case in the past. I have seen people play with really small rhinos, with oblits that are the size of my strike marines.
So even if one ignores the lore, people still aren't happy about the change. Not many people want to rebuy a whole army, just because GW decided marines should be taller and have bigger bases.
There are three people in our local group who run their mini-marines as primaris, so I don't see it as being much of a problem. I'm not going to not play someone because they show up, ready to proxt old termies as aggressors, old tacticals as intercessors, etc. As long as they pay the proper points and have a way to indicate what is what, it's fine by me.
Karol wrote: But you can't use your classic marines as the new tall marines. .
You can't?
That's weird, I can. Certainly as much as I can run my rogue trader era harlequins as current edition harlequins - just gotta tell my opponent what's what, and something might look slightly different (my powerfists are called harlequins' caresses now, my shadowseer doesn't have a lightning claw anymore, my laspistols are shuriken pistols, etc) but it rarely takes more than a second and a little bit of consistency to get things straight.
It seems like they're pretty steadily working their way thru the space marine range and creating primaris analogues to most of the classic marine models. They're not 100% done yet, and they've got some unique units like Suppressors and Invictors but for the most part its like
"Gosh what classic marine models should I use for these hellbasters? Maybe the ones with plasma guns and plasma cannons?"
"Hmm what classic marine models could i use for these Outriders?"
"I wonder what unit is analogous to an aggressor? It'd have to have some kind of high-output bolt weapon and a powerfist or something..."
All my UM are Tacticool Vanguard units anyway, so I can just skip the Gothic Bling for now.
Even before Vanguard were a thing, I was adding ammo pouches and grenade bandouliers onto my Intercessors, opting for a modern age Military Special Forces look.
I even like the Reivers silly Lara Croft twin hip gun holsters.
When I first saw the Vanguard I thought to myself "GW STOLE MY IDEA!", and then gave a big thumbs up.
I can’t believe all the vat grown primaris are dead, also what about the new primaris Only chapter. And has the production of mini marines stopped (in lore)
The Awoken were literally Astartes from the Heresy, experimented upon in secret by Cawl and held in stasis with extensive indoctrination for them to have their roles. Guilliman's return set into motion Cawl bringing them forwards.
The Awoken who could not be united with a parent Chapter did get used in founding Primaris Chapters like the Rift Stalkers(Raven Guard).
mrFickle wrote: I can’t believe all the vat grown primaris are dead, also what about the new primaris Only chapter. And has the production of mini marines stopped (in lore)
They might cover this in the new Crusade of Fire Book series (and also as a plug to start introducing the new models)
mrFickle wrote: I can’t believe all the vat grown primaris are dead,
There was never any vat-grown marines. Cawl's first batch of Primaris were trained on Mars though. Some of them must still be around, though they would be in minority by now.
also what about the new primaris Only chapter.
They recruit normally.
And has the production of mini marines stopped (in lore)
There probably are some holdouts that continue to still make them for some bizarre reasons, but logically there are no reason to do so. Almost all new marines are primaris, and the old style marines can now get the upgraded into primaris. There really is no reason for non-primaris marines to exist any more.
Kayback wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't get the heavy Gothic aesthetic of the Primaris?
In the old Marines you're entering a 10 000 year history of venerated relics and technology that's bordering on Cargo Cult, you don't know any better because the mysticism surrounding both the tech and the relics is ingrained deeply into the ethos of the Chapter you are joining. You have relics, you have saints and iconography, history and everything that you're joining.
Along come Primaris. New out the vat with brand new equipment but the iconography and traditions of ages past?
Seems.... Illogical.
I dunno, it's often the newbies who are the biggest try-hards in any organization, and who double down hardest on the "traditions."
My personal theory is that the Primaris marines all suffer from nagging self-doubt and insecurity issues. They can sense on some vague level how their existence doesn't fit with the rest of the 40k universe, that they are a fish out of water that really shouldn't exist in an IP based on a degraded Imperium that reveres old technology and methodology it can no longer produce. And here they are, popped out of a mold bright and shiny and better than everything that came before. It must be unsettling to know you're breaking the universe that was previously set up. So they try harder than everybody to fit in...but like all try-hards, the harder they try, the more they just end up standing out. Hence the Primario Kart.
I dunno, it's often the newbies who are the biggest try-hards in any organization, and who double down hardest on the "traditions."
My personal theory is that the Primaris marines all suffer from nagging self-doubt and insecurity issues. They can sense on some vague level how their existence doesn't fit with the rest of the 40k universe, that they are a fish out of water that really shouldn't exist in an IP based on a degraded Imperium that reveres old technology and methodology it can no longer produce. And here they are, popped out of a mold bright and shiny and better than everything that came before. It must be unsettling to know you're breaking the universe that was previously set up. So they try harder than everybody to fit in...but like all try-hards, the harder they try, the more they just end up standing out. Hence the Primario Kart.
*Runs out of credibility as a basis for new models for people to buy.
Don't get me wrong, Primaris was a stroke of genius from a marketing point of view. Fundamentally re-do the entire line of miniatures of the faction that gets the most play, requiring these players to basically rebuy their whole army? It's genius, if you can get people to swallow it.
The trouble is that in doing so they've created massive problems for themselves both in terms of the lore and in terms of game balance. With more thoughtful treatment, the lore side of things could actually have been interesting - think if they had really explored that fundamental break that Primaris represent, with the more traditional chapters rejecting Primaris entirely as heretical, while others embrace them, and with those tensions threatening to create a schism like the one 10 millenia before.
But instead, everybody just gets primaris because they need to sell them to everybody. Hand wave some <reasons> and now nobody really cares any more about 10 millenia of tradition being cast aside.
Instead, Papa Smurf shows back up and teams up with Lead Heretic Cawl and throws 10 millenia of tradition on its head and everybody is just like "oh ok, cool, intercessors and centurions baby!"
It would have been so much interesting if they had given the whole thing space to breathe and develop instead of having everyone jump on the primaris and new technology bandwagon straight away because they wanted to sell everybody primaris models, even though it is not believable based on everything we've been told up to this point about how the Imperium and the Space Marine chapters operate. This could have been a second, inverse Horus Heresy if they had treated it with the respect the development deserved. Instead it got a little bit of hand-waving and then everyone forgot about what they had been doing for 10 millenia because it was convenient for them to do so.
Martel732 wrote: But things change. Old tech that can't be maintained or replaced runs out of credibility as a narrative.
The galaxy is sooooo big and there are so many humans that at some point invention is inevitable so the AM must be putting a huge effort into supressing heretical new technology. It would just have been bette rig they were normal marines and a new power armour and gun STC was discovered giving GW licence to upgrade the model range. But I’m sure there no one on here who wants to the open that argument again.....
That approach worked so well for the Catholic chruch. Let me tell you.... I could see the nonsense going on for 500-1000 years, but 10K? We went from stone tools to nuclear weapons in less time.
Martel732 wrote: That approach worked so well for the Catholic chruch. Let me tell you.... I could see the nonsense going on for 500-1000 years, but 10K? We went from stone tools to nuclear weapons in less time.
But the point is that it did. This was an organization so committed to suppressing change that it did so for 10k years.
Only for Papa Smurf and Cawl to convince everyone in it that they had been wrong for 10k years and to do things their way all at the same time with no significant resistance because <we need to sell primaris to everyone>.
It's just clumsy and transparently driven by considerations that have nothing to do with the integrity of the story.
It's not that the Primaris thing is inherently bad...it's that the way they introduced it is fundamentally inconsistent with everything that came before, and the development isn't treated with the importance it deserves in terms of how it upends the entire structure of a society that had endured for 10,000 years.
I"m saying there is no conceivable scenario where they can keep it up for 10K years. It doesn't matter what GW says, really. I don't accept their BS. So primaris doesn't register to me at all.
yukishiro1 wrote: Well if you don't care about the lore, of course you don't care about the lore? Dunno why you're talking about it in that case, though...
It's a pretty big white elephant. I've had the displeasure of people quoting it to me while playing. I think making the setting a bit more realistic is probably good now that they are playing it straight instead of going with a satirical approach.
There's a difference between not caring and not fully accepting GW's nonsense. There are parts that are cool, but then they screw them up by not thinking things through.
mrFickle wrote:I can’t believe all the vat grown primaris are dead
Vat-grown Primaris never existed.
There were Marines in *stasis*, not cloned, not vat-grown. Cawl was starting the Primaris project in M31 - it's not like he just showed up out of nowhere in pre-Fall of Cadia M41 and said "I know what I'll do today, build a new army with all new guns and technology!" and it was all ready to go by M42. Of course, that's what happened IRL, but that's not what happened within the universe.
When you think that Cawl's been at this for 10,000 years, pretty much has all the resources and authority he could possibly need (Guilliman gave him said authority during when he was acting as Imperial Regent before he got poisoned), and outright has first hand experience of working on genetically modifying Space Marines (via Sedayne), the idea of him *only* being able to create slightly better bolt weapons, slightly better plasma, appropriate some hover tech in the most bastardised way possible, and make Marines stronger over 10,000 years - it's not all that much.
After all, how quickly did it take to move between Marks I to VII of power armour? Within many Marines' lifetimes! Like, there's probably Astartes from the original batches on Terra who saw the integration of Aquila pattern armour and the emergence of the Godwyn-pattern bolter over the old Phobos, Umbra and Tigrus patterns. Those all happened in a fraction of the time it took Cawl to fully develop his Primaris.
also what about the new primaris Only chapter.
Still use Scouts, it seems. And, they're still going to be influenced by the general styles of their fellow Marines - but hey, if you want your own Primaris to have a widely different aesthetic design due to their isolation from other Chapters, be my guest!
And has the production of mini marines stopped (in lore)
No, it hasn't - potential reasons could be a distrust of Cawl (which is still a thing in universe! It's not exactly massively widespread, but there's definitely Marines who don't fully trust him), a surplus of older power armour that wouldn't fit a Primaris Marine, or perhaps your Marines have been cut off, and haven't yet received the equipment to make Primaris Marines.
Firestrike servo-turret
I love tech marines. I like the long range firepower, I'll be sure to grab one if the price is right. Also pretty flavourful for entrenched marines I'd say.
Invader ATV
I guess by namesake it's an all terrain vehicle but looks more for driving through streets. Wish that it could have a twin multi-melta but oh well. Hope the guy on the back has some kind of variation
Primaris Captain
Relic shield. What? 2++? halve wounds taken? Very strange. Seems like a fun alternative to Calgar to me
New Lt
Sure. At least they gave him a master crafted power sword
New chaplain
This is just a scrapped Chaplain Cassius
Judiciar
Would have much preferred a chapter/company champion since I suspect they'll be mechanically similar
Blade guard vets
Sure, at least they also have Mastercrafted power swords. I wonder if they'll have a different load out?
Blade guard ancient
I just love the standard! "has no obvious weapon" "handy" so you're telling this guy is gonna go around slapping people with a bone hand?
Eradicators
Long range melta rifles? Well I guess melta was kinda high risk low reward
Assault Intercessors
Great idea! Should have started with this. Sorry reivers good luck!
Outriders
I'm glad they don't have assault bolters to avoid overlap with Inceptors. I always loved bikes, probably should be a white scars player but white paint
I'm excited for the full kits. Wondering what if any options the full kits will have. And fingers crossed we get a suppressors kit too
yukishiro1 wrote: Well if you don't care about the lore, of course you don't care about the lore? Dunno why you're talking about it in that case, though...
I don't think it's inconsistent. If fact, I think it's too consistent.
Everything has to have been old and founded in the Heresy Era. Nothing can be actually truly new or newly developed, even though there's lots of innovations, incremental improvements to things, and wholesale new things created during the intervening period [Razorbacks, Immolators, Exorcists, Leman Russ Annihilators, Stormblades, Marcharii, Chimerae, etc.]. Guilliman couldn't have woken up and gone "hell, everything has gone to gak. Well, we need more marines and badly, so you, what's your name? Cawl? Good. You, get to work on developing a refinement to the Astartes Program, I need them better and faster and we have lots of money to pay for it. Get to it!"
Instead, it's a retcon like "Guilliman foresaw the need for more better marines ages ago and commissioned Cawl to make an refined Astartes program, which he worked on secretly without funding for 10000 years and then decided not to declare his project done [or the project finally finished and the hot pockets are done] just when Gulliman came back to life." Because nothing can be truly new and everything new has to be retconned to have it's origins in the 31st Millenium.
Don't all the problem comes from the fact that Cawl is a new OC character. If it was done by some tech priest that existed for all, or most, of w40k history. Or maybe if it was a project started by the Emperor, like lets say the one RG had, but unlike theirs it didn't get sabotaged by the AL.
the idea that somewhere on terra someone had hidden 100k marines, manufactorums to gear them out, energy planets, then replacement parts manufactorums, training facilities a ship building facility. And no one for 10k years knew a thing about it, not even the AL, is bogus and annoying. It is like those tv series or books, where deus ex machina follow each other at light speed and plot hooks are pulled out of stuff that is done off screen.
the rest is what others said. GW wanted to get rid of old marine model line, strike at the 3ed parts companies, but too heed from what AoS was, and decided that maybe a full reset is probably not a good idea.
Instead, it's a retcon like "Guilliman foresaw the need for more better marines ages ago and commissioned Cawl to make an refined Astartes program, which he worked on secretly without funding for 10000 years and then decided not to declare his project done [or the project finally finished and the hot pockets are done] just when Gulliman came back to life." Because nothing can be truly new and everything new has to be retconned to have it's origins in the 31st Millenium.
I wrote a long reply earlier but deleted it saying pretty much this.
I think they shot themselves in the foot by writing some of this stuff down. Mostly in the HH series. Yes it gave us some interesting reads and showed how things got started but it also seems to have cemented how things went or collapsed the wave function of something. Saying "things went to pieces many many years ago but they still struggling on, now with Nids" left a lot of wriggle room to retcon stuff without too much hassle.
The fact GW kept launching new and improved units shows innovation hasn't stopped. The changes we've seen since RT prove that. IoM should be quasi Eldar-Tau by now. Trying to bluff your way through fluff.
I appreciate the larger, IMHO mostly better looking, Marines who appear somewhat closer to the fluff levels of dangerous now and I think they are trying to move the WH40K universe on without AoS-ing things.
Karol wrote: Don't all the problem comes from the fact that Cawl is a new OC character. If it was done by some tech priest that existed for all, or most, of w40k history. Or maybe if it was a project started by the Emperor, like lets say the one RG had, but unlike theirs it didn't get sabotaged by the AL.
.
Too many of the GrimDark features of the WH40K universe simply aren't practical. Not to mix too many IPs around but it seems highly unlikely there isn't a "District Thirteen" somewhere with better tech than the IoM, and was able to carve out its own empire, like the Tau. They also had an "out" they could have exploited in the form of the II and XI Legions. They could have been the Emperor's backup and rolled out exactly like the Primaris.
Too many of the GrimDark features of the WH40K universe simply aren't practical. Not to mix too many IPs around but it seems highly unlikely there isn't a "District Thirteen" somewhere with better tech than the IoM, and was able to carve out its own empire, like the Tau. They also had an "out" they could have exploited in the form of the II and XI Legions. They could have been the Emperor's backup and rolled out exactly like the Primaris.
In real life, yes. But not in the w40k world. talking trees in LotR make no sense either , up until we are in a world of magic rings, elfs, demons and dragons the size of mountains.
It is like with sports clubs, if an old timer hooligan comes and explained why we are suppose to have a cease fire with hooligans of another club it is easier to swallow. Then if someone new came out and said that it is just better for the fight clubs.
The primaris would have been easier to accept, if they were the plan of the Emperor or some well know, to the players, adeptus mechanicus priest. It is hard to accept the world standing on its head, when the doers are an disliked primarch and an OC, out of no where, Cawl.
Except people don't like Roboute because of 1d4chan hyperbole. He's really just inoffensive if you read the actual fluff. Instead we get people hyperventilating "sPiRiTuAl LiEgE" without actually getting context of it.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Except people don't like Roboute because of 1d4chan hyperbole. He's really just inoffensive if you read the actual fluff. Instead we get people hyperventilating "sPiRiTuAl LiEgE" without actually getting context of it.
Similar to a lot of the complaints of both Cawl and Primaris in general.
Like, the amount of times I've seen people say "but how come CAWL knows so much about Space Marine biology that even the Emperor couldn't do!", without knowing that Cawl probably has a higher claim in the involvement of making Space Marines than the Emperor, or the oft-repeated "vat grown/cloned Primaris".
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Except people don't like Roboute because of 1d4chan hyperbole. He's really just inoffensive if you read the actual fluff. Instead we get people hyperventilating "sPiRiTuAl LiEgE" without actually getting context of it.
Similar to a lot of the complaints of both Cawl and Primaris in general.
Like, the amount of times I've seen people say "but how come CAWL knows so much about Space Marine biology that even the Emperor couldn't do!", without knowing that Cawl probably has a higher claim in the involvement of making Space Marines than the Emperor, or the oft-repeated "vat grown/cloned Primaris".
The problem is there have been whole story arcs about rebuilding the Marines. Numerous ones. Ones back in 30k and in the more modern M35/36 Cursed Founding. Where was Cawl in all of this?
At the end of the day it's still just a long winded way to shoehorn in a lore excuse to encourage people to replace their army.
But they really could have up-scaled the marine line without all the fuss, and probably done just fine. People love marines, people already buy multiple marine armies, and members of the studio themselves have spoken about how surprised they have been at how well the Tactical Squad has sold. Marines print money, and Primaris are a cynical acknowledgement of that fact.
I painted my first Primaris Marine last night just to see if I would enjoy building an Astartes army. I dabble with a Blood Angel army shortly in 6th and prior to that, Rogue Trader. Overall, the quality of the model is great. Nice detail and easy to paint. I don't like the spots where the sprue meets the model (in the shoulder pad.....really?). Aside from that, I do like the Primaris models as a whole and will build out an army. They can look good on the tabletop without spending a great deal of time painting.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Except people don't like Roboute because of 1d4chan hyperbole. He's really just inoffensive if you read the actual fluff. Instead we get people hyperventilating "sPiRiTuAl LiEgE" without actually getting context of it.
Similar to a lot of the complaints of both Cawl and Primaris in general.
Like, the amount of times I've seen people say "but how come CAWL knows so much about Space Marine biology that even the Emperor couldn't do!", without knowing that Cawl probably has a higher claim in the involvement of making Space Marines than the Emperor, or the oft-repeated "vat grown/cloned Primaris".
The problem is there have been whole story arcs about rebuilding the Marines. Numerous ones. Ones back in 30k and in the more modern M35/36 Cursed Founding. Where was Cawl in all of this?
Did Cawl WANT to be involved? How in depth do we know about those foundings? What facts do we have? There's a lot of questions for that.
Did Cawl WANT to be involved? How in depth do we know about those foundings? What facts do we have? There's a lot of questions for that.
.
The HH novel about it was a whole novel. True the Emp was preoccupied fighting in the Webway so *maybe* unable to say "Here the keys to my lab, call Cawl" but if he had access to upgraded Marines and the entire Marine program almost collapsed in the 21st founding then logically he should have put in an appearance.
While lack of evidence isn't evidence of not being there it is very Emperor ex machina.
Again, probably overthinking a way to relaunched bigger miniatures.
And no it isn't a retcon retcon but it is introducing things that were apparently in motion the entire time and not referenced.
Insectum7 wrote: At the end of the day it's still just a long winded way to shoehorn in a lore excuse to encourage people to replace their army.
But they really could have up-scaled the marine line without all the fuss, and probably done just fine. People love marines, people already buy multiple marine armies, and members of the studio themselves have spoken about how surprised they have been at how well the Tactical Squad has sold. Marines print money, and Primaris are a cynical acknowledgement of that fact.
And their lore and game design stinks.
No, Marines needed a change in terms of the statline. You can keep pretending that whatever you're doing in your locals is fine, but it doesn't grasp the bigger picture. The real problem is CSM not getting any decent treatment.
The marine statline was totally fine. There's a reason that for more than 30 years marines stayed at 1W like the basic troops of every other army. GW's game engine works best with armies that are roughly equivalent.
Marines worked best when they had base stats that were better overall than everybody else, but not dramatically so. Kicking them up to 2W and then effectively 3A each wrecked the basic design of the whole game and has led directly to most of 8th edition's problems.
The idea that they had to be bumped up in power level because they weren't doing well in 7th is a bit curious in light of the fact that there were 6 other previous editions of the game. And even if space marines had been chronically underpowered, which they weren't, there were lots of ways to address that that didn't involve just buffing the base statline out the wazoo.
See I don't mind advancing imperial tech. It doesn't make sense that in a galaxy with races that literally cage stars to power their guns that the Imperial would survive. I don't give a crap how many trillions of humans and orcs there are when 1 eldar titan can snap its fingers and break a world in half.
What I do find weird is that now Imperial tech is all mishmashed and weird.
The tank hovers, but the bikes need tracks. We have chainswords and new bolters, but a lot of our transports are covered in stubbers. Primaris models do vary in design widely and sometimes they appear to just not fit together. The bikes look great, but the quad bike looks pretty bad and not even remotely as if it is from the same game.
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yukishiro1 wrote: The marine statline was totally fine. There's a reason that for more than 30 years marines stayed at 1W like the basic troops of every other army. GW's game engine works best with armies that are roughly equivalent.
Marines worked best when they had base stats that were better overall than everybody else, but not dramatically so. Kicking them up to 2W and then effectively 3A each wrecked the basic design of the whole game and has led directly to most of 8th edition's problems.
The idea that they had to be bumped up in power level because they weren't doing well in 7th is a bit curious in light of the fact that there were 6 other previous editions of the game. And even if space marines had been chronically underpowered, which they weren't, there were lots of ways to address that that didn't involve just buffing the base statline out the wazoo.
Wern't marines the top army in 7th? Free rhinos for days, drop pod assault. I remember going to LVO in 2017 and like 60% of the competitors were playing marines.
I didn't play 7th, so I can't talk from personal experience, but I've heard that was mostly because they literally gave space marines lots of free points in their armies, or something like that?
yukishiro1 wrote: The marine statline was totally fine. There's a reason that for more than 30 years marines stayed at 1W like the basic troops of every other army. GW's game engine works best with armies that are roughly equivalent.
Marines worked best when they had base stats that were better overall than everybody else, but not dramatically so. Kicking them up to 2W and then effectively 3A each wrecked the basic design of the whole game and has led directly to most of 8th edition's problems.
The idea that they had to be bumped up in power level because they weren't doing well in 7th is a bit curious in light of the fact that there were 6 other previous editions of the game. And even if space marines had been chronically underpowered, which they weren't, there were lots of ways to address that that didn't involve just buffing the base statline out the wazoo.
And in those six editions they weren't the greatest either. It was always a gimmick that was relied on for success compared to the statline itself. The troop itself was not really good. 4th was MAYBE the closest the statline itself worked.
Also if you didn't play 7th, the reason Marines worked is because they could end up playing with around 400 to 500 extra points. It was disgusting.
Instead, it's a retcon like "Guilliman foresaw the need for more better marines ages ago and commissioned Cawl to make an refined Astartes program, which he worked on secretly without funding for 10000 years and then decided not to declare his project done [or the project finally finished and the hot pockets are done] just when Gulliman came back to life." Because nothing can be truly new and everything new has to be retconned to have it's origins in the 31st Millenium.
I wrote a long reply earlier but deleted it saying pretty much this.
I think they shot themselves in the foot by writing some of this stuff down. Mostly in the HH series. Yes it gave us some interesting reads and showed how things got started but it also seems to have cemented how things went or collapsed the wave function of something. Saying "things went to pieces many many years ago but they still struggling on, now with Nids" left a lot of wriggle room to retcon stuff without too much hassle.
The fact GW kept launching new and improved units shows innovation hasn't stopped. The changes we've seen since RT prove that. IoM should be quasi Eldar-Tau by now. Trying to bluff your way through fluff.
I appreciate the larger, IMHO mostly better looking, Marines who appear somewhat closer to the fluff levels of dangerous now and I think they are trying to move the WH40K universe on without AoS-ing things.
The Imperium has a higher tech level than the Tau. There isn't really anything the Tau have that the Imperium doesn't also have the demonstrated capability to make, and the Tau don't have laser weapons at all much less handheld ones to mass produce by the truckload [not to mention a healthy variety of other more exotic weapons like radiation guns, deflagration rays, lightning arc guns, gravity guns, etc].
The basic marine statline was fine. There were all sorts of other problems in later editions, like the fact that a Lascannon could only do a single wound to a Riptide, for starters. Or the fact that high AP weapons were handed out like candy. Those were actual problems.
Not to mention Black Library talking up marines like they're some sort of gods, and marine players feeling precious about how their troops are getting killed in games that involve half an armored company. Like . . . of course they're going to die in an environment like that.
But no, apparently marines have to be the bestest and the shootiest and the toughest and the blah blah blah. Where'as older editions allowed marines to actually have some individual disadvantages in comparisson to other faction troops, now it's just "marines uber alles", and in a really dumb way at that.
The Classic Statline is correct. Primaris are terrible.
The Imperium has a higher tech level than the Tau. There isn't really anything the Tau have that the Imperium doesn't also have the demonstrated capability to make, and the Tau don't have laser weapons at all much less handheld ones to mass produce by the truckload [not to mention a healthy variety of other more exotic weapons like radiation guns, deflagration rays, lightning arc guns, gravity guns, etc].
The Imperium does have amazing tech, as it should. But one of the pillars of the setting is that the Imperium uses tech in totally backwards fashion, hence, the chainsword. The differentiator between the Imperium and Tau is that the Tau use their tech in a way that's more holistically synergistic, while the Imperium sorta does a round-peg-square-hole application of it.
yukishiro1 wrote: I didn't play 7th, so I can't talk from personal experience, but I've heard that was mostly because they literally gave space marines lots of free points in their armies, or something like that?
Formations did all kinds of stupid things and Marines were among the greatest beneficiaries, though in all fairness they weren't bad before it all kicked up either except in comparison to Eldar who kicked around pretty much everybody, and possibly Necrons (who also got their own formation shennanigans). Anyone saying that Marines were *only* good because of the free stuff is mis-remembring a lot of that edition, but they did reach absurd new heights in the last couple years of the 6E/7E era.
The problem is there have been whole story arcs about rebuilding the Marines. Numerous ones. Ones back in 30k and in the more modern M35/36 Cursed Founding. Where was Cawl in all of this?
Whilst I agree that focusing on couple of hyperpeople like Cawl and Guilliman is puerile and awkward, the fact that there have been numerous attempts to improve the marines makes the primaris on general level work for me. It makes sense that at some point some of those improvemens would actually work.
The problem is there have been whole story arcs about rebuilding the Marines. Numerous ones. Ones back in 30k and in the more modern M35/36 Cursed Founding. Where was Cawl in all of this?
Whilst I agree that focusing on couple of hyperpeople like Cawl and Guilliman is puerile and awkward, the fact that there have been numerous attempts to improve the marines makes the primaris on general level work for me. It makes sense that at some point some of those improvemens would actually work.
So why don't Eldar have super drones loaded with Strcannons by the dozen in every fight? If you're going to be ok with handing out improvements you have to spread tht around a bit. Instead, arguably many units from other factions have actually gotten worse over time. Look no further than the Shuriken Catapult. Compare to a bolter in 2nd Ed.
Catapult: Range 24, ~D3 shots, S4, -2 AP Bolter: Range 24, 1 shot, S4, -1 AP but marines standing still can fire twice.
8th Ed
Catapult: range 12, 2 shots, S4, 0 AP (-3 save on a 6)
Bolt Rifle: Range 30, Rapid fire, -1 AP (but CAN be fire twice on the move at -2AP)
The problem is there have been whole story arcs about rebuilding the Marines. Numerous ones. Ones back in 30k and in the more modern M35/36 Cursed Founding. Where was Cawl in all of this?
Whilst I agree that focusing on couple of hyperpeople like Cawl and Guilliman is puerile and awkward, the fact that there have been numerous attempts to improve the marines makes the primaris on general level work for me. It makes sense that at some point some of those improvemens would actually work.
So why don't Eldar have super drones loaded with Strcannons by the dozen in every fight? If you're going to be ok with handing out improvements you have to spread tht around a bit. Instead, arguably many units from other factions have actually gotten worse over time. Look no further than the Shuriken Catapult. Compare to a bolter in 2nd Ed.
Catapult: Range 24, ~D3 shots, S4, -2 AP Bolter: Range 24, 1 shot, S4, -1 AP but marines standing still can fire twice.
8th Ed
Catapult: range 12, 2 shots, S4, 0 AP (-3 save on a 6)
Bolt Rifle: Range 30, Rapid fire, -1 AP (but CAN be fire twice on the move at -2AP)
It's a joke.
Fully agreed. I have been complaining about the downgrade of the Eldar tech since the third edition.
Insectum7 wrote: 2W is a huuge jump in comparison to other troops, because the guns of other troops only do 1w. It's not good.
Nah, it's good. That is what marines should be. They should be super tough. Marines very elite and individually powerful. Also, bear in mind that whilst most standard guns indeed do only one wound, they have multiple shots, so models with these weaposn still have chance to take down a primaris in one shooting phase. Sure, it is a slim chance, and it should be. (Not defending the sad state of the shuriken catapult obviously.)
I have been super pleased with how the primaris feel in the game (even before the codex mark 2 buffs,) I finally have marines that feel like elite super soldiers.
The Imperium has a higher tech level than the Tau. There isn't really anything the Tau have that the Imperium doesn't also have the demonstrated capability to make, and the Tau don't have laser weapons at all much less handheld ones to mass produce by the truckload [not to mention a healthy variety of other more exotic weapons like radiation guns, deflagration rays, lightning arc guns, gravity guns, etc].
The Imperium does have amazing tech, as it should. But one of the pillars of the setting is that the Imperium uses tech in totally backwards fashion, hence, the chainsword. The differentiator between the Imperium and Tau is that the Tau use their tech in a way that's more holistically synergistic, while the Imperium sorta does a round-peg-square-hole application of it.
That doesn't mean that all Imperial things much have been created as part of a heresy-era project though.
The razorback, immolator, and macharius tank all long in canon were all completely conceptualized, developed, and accepted into service in normal-ish timeframes more recently than the 31st millennium.
Retconning the primaris project to have been in progress all along in secret for the last 10k years just to maintain some ambiguous not-actually-newness to them was stupid. Guilliman could have woken up and said "Hey, Cawl, make me some MkII Space Marines" and it wouldn't have been lore breaking or anything.
Insectum7 wrote: 2W is a huuge jump in comparison to other troops, because the guns of other troops only do 1w. It's not good.
Nah, it's good. That is what marines should be. They should be super tough. Marines very elite and individually powerful. Also, bear in mind that whilst most standard guns indeed do only one wound, they have multiple shots, so models with these weaposn still have chance to take down a primaris in one shooting phase. Sure, it is a slim chance, and it should be. (Not defending the sad state of the shuriken catapult obviously.)
I have been super pleased with how the primaris feel in the game (even before the codex mark 2 buffs,) I finally have marines that feel like elite super soldiers.
And everyone else gets to have elites that feel like ultrachumps. Great trade off. Really sweet.
Remember when we used to debate about who could win in a fight, a howling banshee or a space marine? Well now a squad of banshees kills 1 basic space marine, and 1 basic space marine with the melee loadout can take out 3 banshees between shooting and melee no prob.
"They shall be pure of heart and strong of body, untainted by doubt and unsullied by self-aggrandisement. They will be bright stars on the firmament of battle, Angels of Death whose shining wings bring swift annihilation to the enemies of Man. So it shall be for a thousand times for a thousand years, unto the very end of eternity and the extinction of mortal flesh. - - - or, ya know, until my man Cawl get done with his project in which case out with the old and in with the new, eh boys?" - Robute Guilliman, opening lines of the Codex Astartes.
I'm fine with some new stuff from time to time. . . but Primaris are baaaaaaaad.
And everyone else gets to have elites that feel like ultrachumps. Great trade off. Really sweet.
Some of those elites could use buffs too (not 2W though, except for CSM.) And no, it doesn't mean that everyone is the same as long as non-elite units exist too.
Remember when we used to debate about who could win in a fight, a howling banshee or a space marine? Well now a squad of banshees kills 1 basic space marine, and 1 basic space marine with the melee loadout can take out 3 banshees between shooting and melee no prob.
I'm not up to date with the current aspect warrior rules, but those are the sort of things that could generally be better. Though in a tricksy specialised way instead of raw-power way.
In no way should a standard marine be this much tougher than say an Ork or genestealer, hell primaris make my Plague Marines look like chumps. 2W basic infantry is bad design period.
Insectum7 wrote: "They shall be pure of heart and strong of body, untainted by doubt and unsullied by self-aggrandisement. They will be bright stars on the firmament of battle, Angels of Death whose shining wings bring swift annihilation to the enemies of Man. So it shall be for a thousand times for a thousand years, unto the very end of eternity and the extinction of mortal flesh. - - - or, ya know, until my man Cawl get done with his project in which case out with the old and in with the new, eh boys?" - Robute Guilliman, opening lines of the Codex Astartes.
Space marines are going nowhere, they're better than ever and look better than ever. If you stopped fixating on superficial technicalities you could enjoy it.
I'm fine with some new stuff from time to time. . . but Primaris are baaaaaaaad.
Insectum7 wrote: 2W is a huuge jump in comparison to other troops, because the guns of other troops only do 1w. It's not good.
Nah, it's good. That is what marines should be.
Since fething never have they been supposed to be that tough. That why they were 1w for 30 years.
And now that mistake has finally been fixed!
If you like an army of easily killed mooks, perhaps you should try Astra Militarum? Might be more of your liking?
It was never a mistake. You buy some Dire Avengers, you spend a turn or two waiting for your opponent to make a positioning error, now's your time to strike! You unload with your Shuriken Catapults at close range! A Primaris or two dies, you might even get a lucky 6. They look at you for a moment, and return fire, easily wiping out your whole squad of veteran warriors because they wound back on 3's, make your armor save a 6+, and can double fire from beyond your maximum range.
Insectum7 wrote: "They shall be pure of heart and strong of body, untainted by doubt and unsullied by self-aggrandisement. They will be bright stars on the firmament of battle, Angels of Death whose shining wings bring swift annihilation to the enemies of Man. So it shall be for a thousand times for a thousand years, unto the very end of eternity and the extinction of mortal flesh. - - - or, ya know, until my man Cawl get done with his project in which case out with the old and in with the new, eh boys?" - Robute Guilliman, opening lines of the Codex Astartes.
Space marines are going nowhere, they're better than ever and look better than ever. If you stopped fixating on superficial technicalities you could enjoy it.
I'm fine with some new stuff from time to time. . . but Primaris are baaaaaaaad.
Or I guess throwing a tantrum works too...
Making the basic units of other factions feel like ***t is not a "superficial technicality".
Castozor wrote: In no way should a standard marine be this much tougher than say an Ork or genestealer, hell primaris make my Plague Marines look like chumps. 2W basic infantry is bad design period.
Of course a marine should be much more powerful than a basic ork! Orks sprout like mushrooms, standard boys are dime in a dozen. But sure, CSM should have the primamris profile as that is just the profile all marines should have.
And everyone else gets to have elites that feel like ultrachumps. Great trade off. Really sweet.
Some of those elites could use buffs too (not 2W though, except for CSM.) And no, it doesn't mean that everyone is the same as long as non-elite units exist too.
Remember when we used to debate about who could win in a fight, a howling banshee or a space marine? Well now a squad of banshees kills 1 basic space marine, and 1 basic space marine with the melee loadout can take out 3 banshees between shooting and melee no prob.
I'm not up to date with the current aspect warrior rules, but those are the sort of things that could generally be better. Though in a tricksy specialised way instead of raw-power way.
So, it seems like there's a legitimate problem here, where space marines felt too fragile and non-elite after 4 editions of GW pushing things with them being one-ups of space marines, like Deathwatch, Custodes, Wulfen, Centurions, Knights, etc.
And to solve that problem, GW decided marines should roll 2x the dice and have 2x the wounds.
And now everyone else's elites, that used to be kind of the equivalent of marines, like Necrons, Aspect Warriors, Nobz, Genestealers - now they all feel like disposable horde army trash. And tbh, I don't even know what proper horde units are anymore - masochism?
So I guess we COULD double everyones shots, double everyones wounds, make harlequins throw 8 dice apiece and banshees throw 6 dice and genestealers get 5 S5 Ap-3 attacks and khorne bezerkers throw 8 S4 Ap- attacks and W2 and still fight twice....
....or like....we could dial back the lethality for everybody and put space marines back into the fairly durable, fairly deadly medium infantry role they have always been in?
The problem with the "marines feel elite, that's great" thing is that it's only fun as long as you have people masochistic enough to deal with playing vs your marines.
Put two primaris armies against each other, and unfortunately they don't feel like marines anymore, because they hose eachother off the board like nobody's goddamn business. Primaris feel like marines until you slam those bikers into a squad of intercessors and shred them like they're made out of cheesecloth, or an invictor warsuit pops up, blows away a min squad of space marines and charges your repulsor to deal 8 wounds to it in melee. The inevitable thing that will happen and, in my experience has happened with primaris getting this crazy is people just haven't wanted to play against them anymore, and they're stuck playing against eachother until they get sick of it and pick up something that's not marines, or just willingly give up doctrines or something so they can get a game in again.
And yet every other army in the game has 1W troops (special cases like kataphrons don't count).
You have races like eldar where their aspect warriors have spent hundreds or in some cases thousands of years honing their skills using what is supposed to be technology vastly superior to the imperium...and they get absolutely trashed by a run of the mill intercessor who is Just Better (TM).
Yes, you could make the aspect warriors much better too. But that's the whole "power creep" issue people have identified as the basic problem with primaris. Once you start making normal troops better than most races' elite choices even at the specialist tasks those elites are supposed to do, you end up in the bad place of space marines being "jacks of all trades, masters of all trades."
The game was balanced for 30+ years around all basic models having 1W. Once you break that paradigm it starts to do weird things to the game, and before you know it you end up with dumb stuff like 6-man aggressors shooting 140 shots a turn...or space marine bikers with 4W and 6A each.
I actually think 2W models them very well. Some other units need 2W as well, and some need 3W. 3+ armor has been too weak for sometime now, and 8th ed makes it a joke indeed. Even at 2W they are very glass-cannony.
I don't think think there is anything wrong with Primaris, and indeed they were crap for the majority of 8th edition.
The problem is this seemingly unstoppable tide of "have loads of buffs, have a little nerf, have loads more buffs, have a little nerf, have loads more buffs" which is rapidly moving me to irrational Marine hatred.
It feels very much like Eldar in 7th - and there at least you had the knowledge that the edition would end and maybe, maybe things would be different. (And at least under the index, they were.)
Unfortunately PA has been a complete failure of design, and I have little hope that the 9th edition Index isn't going to result in a complete mess, with various factions "waiting on their codex" while others enjoy so many overpowered combinations its just dumb.
But then the codexes can come out and who knows, maybe Ork Boys can get 10 attacks each cos they're well 'ard and Leman Russ can shoot 5 times if they stand still, cos, you know, its fun? 4th Turn Power from Pain can just be "Immune to bullets, increase your FNP to 2+ rerollable because you dark eldar have ascended to beings of pure vampiric mist."
Insectum7 wrote: 2W is a huuge jump in comparison to other troops, because the guns of other troops only do 1w. It's not good.
Nah, it's good. That is what marines should be.
Since fething never have they been supposed to be that tough. That why they were 1w for 30 years.
And now that mistake has finally been fixed!
If you like an army of easily killed mooks, perhaps you should try Astra Militarum? Might be more of your liking?
Is that a mistake being fixed, or are we seeing the result of a slow grind in stat bloat over multiple editions? Because Marines started out life being S4 T3 W1 with a 4+ save that got reduced to a 5+ against Lasguns.
More wounds to track, more dice to roll, more, MORE, MOOOOOORE! Space marines feel more like space marines in apocalypse, where you cant just turn off defensive stats and power armor isnt a joke. And amazingly they dont need to throw 15 thousand dice per attack to do it.
Yeah, and quoting the lore for why they have 2W is sorta besides the point. In the lore a single howling banshee should be able to beat dozens of imperial guard in combat; they shouldn't even be able to touch her. She supposedly literally moves more quickly than they can even follow; they end up cut in half before they even realize she's turned to strike them.
Or Cherubael, a being of nearly limitless power who blows the top half off a warlord titan with a single ranged attack in the lore...who is a 25 point daemon host in the tabletop whose shooting is a single S8 attack that becomes D3 damage if you roll a 6 to wound. Overwhelming power, that.
The fact is game stats have only ever had a vague relationship to the power level of stuff as depicted in the lore. Marines having the S4 T4 statline to represent their superhuman strength and durability was perfectly in line with the way the exceptional abilities of other models were translated into tabletop rules.
Vaktathi wrote: Is that a mistake being fixed, or are we seeing the result of a slow grind in stat bloat over multiple editions? Because Marines started out life being S4 T3 W1 with a 4+ save that got reduced to a 5+ against Lasguns.
I know. And finally they feel like elites. For a long while a solution to things was to just throwing more cheap bodies at things. Elites usually were not elite enough compared to chumps to matter. GW has finally started to address this. And this doesn't mean buffing everyone, it means widening the gap between elites and mooks so that having more bodies is not always the best answer.
Castozor wrote: In no way should a standard marine be this much tougher than say an Ork or genestealer, hell primaris make my Plague Marines look like chumps. 2W basic infantry is bad design period.
Of course a marine should be much more powerful than a basic ork! Orks sprout like mushrooms, standard boys are dime in a dozen. But sure, CSM should have the primamris profile as that is just the profile all marines should have.
More powerful than an Immortal? More powerful than a Genestealer? More Powerful than a Warp Spider, Striking Scorpion and Dire Avenger? If so, how much so? Should their gun be superior to both a Tau Pulse Rifle and Necron Gauss Blaster. . . at the same time?
Should 10 Marines, when engaging waves of Orks, simply be able to just stand in cover and shoot until they are dead? At what point should they start to require support from Land Speeders or Whirlwind artillery? 20 Orks? 50 Orks? 100 Orks? Where do you draw the line?
Castozor wrote: In no way should a standard marine be this much tougher than say an Ork or genestealer, hell primaris make my Plague Marines look like chumps. 2W basic infantry is bad design period.
Of course a marine should be much more powerful than a basic ork! Orks sprout like mushrooms, standard boys are dime in a dozen. But sure, CSM should have the primamris profile as that is just the profile all marines should have.
More powerful as in having a better save and shooting better, of course! But being this much tougher, no not at all. Why are Orks such a threat fluffwise? Not just because they are dimes a dozen, many factions have that, but because they are so plentiful and hard as nails! But I guess part of the problem is that just how though a marine is fluctuates all over the place. Some fluff they are as you apparently think they should be, in others a 1.000 year veteran gets capped by an IG conscript and another gets out duelled by a commissar.
Vaktathi wrote: Is that a mistake being fixed, or are we seeing the result of a slow grind in stat bloat over multiple editions? Because Marines started out life being S4 T3 W1 with a 4+ save that got reduced to a 5+ against Lasguns.
I know. And finally they feel like elites. For a long while a solution to things was to just throwing more cheap bodies at things. Elites usually were not elite enough compared to chumps to matter. GW has finally started to address this. And this doesn't mean buffing everyone, it means widening the gap between elites and mooks so that having more bodies is not always the best answer.
They felt like Elites in 4th edition. Not because they were hyper tough but because theybehaved like elites.
Examples:
A: Units could only shoot at the closest target, unless they took a Ld test. Marines had high base Leadership, Sergeants could push it higher, and Captains gave everyone on the board Ld 10, making it easy for Marines to coordinate their fire.
B: All Marines came with Frag and Krak Grenades, and every model in combat could attack a vehicle with a Krak grenade, and always hit the rear armor. Your units of elites could handle enemy armor like a boss if they got to it.
C: ATSKNF. Marines, unlike every other faction, automatically rallied after a break test, and could freely move and shoot immediately. Your elite soldiers got right back into the fight faster than every one else.
Now "elite" is just MOAR stronger and MOAR tougher, hur dur. It's the lowest common denominator depiction of elite-ness.
It's all the other stuff that's getting stacked on top that's the problem. Extra AP, extra-special rapidfire rules, re-rolling everything, extra attacks on top!
In comparison to Necrons, Genestealers, Orks, Aspect Warriors, etc.? Just straight up double the wounds? Should it be possible for a single Bolter round to take a marine out of action? How about a Heavy Bolter shell? You know, the fist-sized grenade-bullet? How about a swing with a Power Sword? Should a single Power Sword strike be absolutely unable to take a marine out of action?
Probably not. Though I know very little of necrons as they're ugly and boring.
More powerful than a Genestealer? More Powerful than a Warp Spider, Striking Scorpion and Dire Avenger? If so, how much so?
Marine should have more raw power (better stats) than any of these, and be better on average, but thse things should be better than a marine at the things they specialise at (except maybe Dire Avengers, who are kinda boring generalists.) Also the Aspect Warriors should have all sorts of tricks (I guess stratagems in the current system) which allow them to do crazier stuff than the marines.
With Eldar I generally feel that their traditional units such as aspect warriors have been neglected by the designers in favour of vehicles.
Should their gun be superior to both a Tau Pulse Rifle
Possibly.
and Necron Gauss Blaster. . .
¨
Probably not
Should 10 Marines, when engaging waves of Orks, simply be able to just stand in cover and shoot until they are dead? At what point should they start to require support from Land Speeders or Whirlwind artillery? 20 Orks? 50 Orks? 100 Orks? Where do you draw the line?
It's all the other stuff that's getting stacked on top that's the problem. Extra AP, extra-special rapidfire rules, re-rolling everything, extra attacks on top!
At minimum the super doctrines from the supplements were a step too far. And I'm not a huge fan of the regular doctrines either. Extra attack on charge is good though, as it actually makes you consider assaulting from time to time, instead of just boringly staying put and shooting.
More powerful as in having a better save and shooting better, of course! But being this much tougher, no not at all. Why are Orks such a threat fluffwise? Not just because they are dimes a dozen, many factions have that, but because they are so plentiful and hard as nails!
And they're hard as nails compared to normal humans. But marines still have to be significantly better or they would be completely useless against such overwhelming numbers.
But I guess part of the problem is that just how though a marine is fluctuates all over the place. Some fluff they are as you apparently think they should be, in others a 1.000 year veteran gets capped by an IG conscript and another gets out duelled by a commissar.
It does fluctuate, and I am certainly not a fan of the most eccessive BL power fantasies. But , still, marines need to be significantly better than normal humans. "Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops," is an old quote by Rogal Dorn, been in the books who knows how long. That sounds like a fair assessment of the marine power in the fluff. Now in the game you need to tone things down, I get that. And one Intercessor cannot take ten guardsmen. Four or five if he's lucky. And that seems pretty fine to me.
Probably not. Though I know very little of necrons as they're ugly and boring.
Well I'll tell you that the basic Necron Warrior was roughly the same stats and MORE expensive than a Tac Marine for nearly ten years. Immortals were arguably the best infantry in the game. T5, Assault 24" S5 AP4 weapon, and originally an Elite. Now they are plainly worse than a Primaris. Warriors are even worse off, and show no signs of improving.
More powerful than a Genestealer? More Powerful than a Warp Spider, Striking Scorpion and Dire Avenger? If so, how much so?
Marine should have more raw power (better stats) than any of these, and be better on average, but thse things should be better than a marine at the things they specialise at (except maybe Dire Avengers, who are kinda boring generalists.) Also the Aspect Warriors should have all sorts of tricks (I guess stratagems in the current system) which allow them to do crazier stuff than the marines.
Guess what, in terms of stats the Tac Marine still out-stats most of these currently. The Genestealer only traditionally having an advantage in WS and Attacks (and Initiative). The Genestealer, btw, who is famed for being a can opener in Space Hulk, easily taking out Terminators. Now it takes them two successful attacks to take out a Primaris. In fact they are equal WS now, and have the same number of attacks during the first round of combat.
With Eldar I generally feel that their traditional units such as aspect warriors have been neglected by the designers in favour of vehicles.
Should their gun be superior to both a Tau Pulse Rifle
Possibly.
So what should be the advantage of Tau infantry, if their rifle is inferior? The selling point for them originally was that they has a powrful basic rifle, S5 and longer ranged than every other basic weapon. A Bolt Rifle is not as strong, but it has equal range, better AP, and two shots at max range. Sucks to be Tau I guess, right?
Should 10 Marines, when engaging waves of Orks, simply be able to just stand in cover and shoot until they are dead? At what point should they start to require support from Land Speeders or Whirlwind artillery? 20 Orks? 50 Orks? 100 Orks? Where do you draw the line?
36.
We could do the math, but I'm guessing 36 probably don't make the Primaris break a sweat. Remember, the Orks start taking casualties 30" away, and without buffs 10 Intercessors remove about 9 a turn.
are we okay with the fact that the numarine bikes are literally 2 khorneberzerkers strapped to a bike with double the wounds and more dakka then heavy bolters?
Not to mention Volkite, you know that heresy stuff that supposedly constantly get's carried around by you know, legionaires
Crimson wrote: "Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops,"
And how do you interpret that? Just standing in a line shooting at each other? Or perhaps there's more nuance to it, that speak to some of the other marine abilities and doctrine?
Castozor wrote: In no way should a standard marine be this much tougher than say an Ork or genestealer, hell primaris make my Plague Marines look like chumps. 2W basic infantry is bad design period.
"Basic infantry"
Well a good thing they aren't basic infantry.
A Gaurdsmen is a basic infantry. You take a Gaurdsmen. You tripple it's overall mass and give it a mechanical powered suit and a rapid fire grenade launcher and mutiple bionic augments. Essentially it is a machine at that point. Much stronger than an ork. As fast as an eldar. As tough as a necron. The only way to model this is to make them more expensive but as good or better at all the jobs these other troops do. They finally got this right. Stop whining about it and bring as much plasma and weapons with -AP as you can to deal with it. WAIT. That has been the go to stratagey in every freaking addition and as a result marines have ALWAYS sucked because all their stats can be ignored. 2 W is the only way to make these guys even remotely more durable than multiples of chaff units.
If we were going the basic infantry route for marines. Dropping a standard marine down to 9 or 10 points for what it does on the table would have been the way to go about doing that.
Not Online!!! wrote: are we okay with the fact that the numarine bikes are literally 2 khorneberzerkers strapped to a bike with double the wounds and more dakka then heavy bolters?
Not to mention Volkite, you know that heresy stuff that supposedly constantly get's carried around by you know, legionaires
I am okay with marines getting this, but I totally agree CSM players being salty. CSM should have similar stuff too. Just give the primaris statline to all marines, including the CSM.
Castozor wrote: In no way should a standard marine be this much tougher than say an Ork or genestealer, hell primaris make my Plague Marines look like chumps. 2W basic infantry is bad design period.
"Basic infantry"
Well a good thing they aren't basic infantry.
A Gaurdsmen is a basic infantry. You take a Gaurdsmen. You tripple it's overall mass and give it a mechanical powered suit and a rapid fire grenade launcher and mutiple bionic augments. Essentially it is a machine at that point. Much stronger than an ork. As fast as an eldar. As tough as a necron. The only way to model this is to make them more expensive but as good or better at all the jobs these other troops do. They finally got this right. Stop whining about it and bring as much plasma and weapons with -AP as you can to deal with it. WAIT. That has been the go to stratagey in every freaking addition and as a result marines have ALWAYS sucked because all their stats can be ignored. 2 W is the only way to make these guys even remotely more durable than multiples of chaff units.
Well they're TWICE as tough as a Necron at the moment.
I play Marines, I know where they stand. I can kill Primaris just fine because my troops can load up on Plasma and Grav. . . . but other factions can't. Aspect Warriors are totally outclassed by Intercessors, and that just shouldn't be the case. Genestealers don't do nearly the damage they should against Primaris, etc.
Not Online!!! wrote: are we okay with the fact that the numarine bikes are literally 2 khorneberzerkers strapped to a bike with double the wounds and more dakka then heavy bolters?
Not to mention Volkite, you know that heresy stuff that supposedly constantly get's carried around by you know, legionaires
I am okay with marines getting this, but I totally agree CSM players being salty. CSM should have similar stuff too. Just give the primaris statline to all marines, including the CSM.
And to Dire Avengers, and to Incubi, and to Immortals.
Not Online!!! wrote: are we okay with the fact that the numarine bikes are literally 2 khorneberzerkers strapped to a bike with double the wounds and more dakka then heavy bolters?
Not to mention Volkite, you know that heresy stuff that supposedly constantly get's carried around by you know, legionaires
I am okay with marines getting this, but I totally agree CSM players being salty. CSM should have similar stuff too. Just give the primaris statline to all marines, including the CSM.
Never understood this line of thinking...CSM have all kinds of stuff marines dont have. Like...Cult marines - daemon engines - daemons - cultists. Primaris should be imperial specific because they are literally an imperial attempt to strengthen humanities grip on their empire which is slowly slipping away. Leave primaris envy at the door. Embrace the things that make your army unique. Choas should not have everything loyalist space marines do.
Not Online!!! wrote: are we okay with the fact that the numarine bikes are literally 2 khorneberzerkers strapped to a bike with double the wounds and more dakka then heavy bolters?
Not to mention Volkite, you know that heresy stuff that supposedly constantly get's carried around by you know, legionaires
I am okay with marines getting this, but I totally agree CSM players being salty. CSM should have similar stuff too. Just give the primaris statline to all marines, including the CSM.
Never understood this line of thinking...CSM have all kinds of stuff marines dont have. Like...Cult marines - daemon engines - daemons - cultists. Primaris should be imperial specific because they are literally an imperial attempt to strengthen humanities grip on their empire which is slowly slipping away. Leave primaris envy at the door. Embrace the things that make your army unique. Choas should not have everything loyalist space marines do.
Even if they had the Primaris statline they'd still be far, faaar from having everything that loyalists had.
And it's just a bad look to have you good guys be so outright superior than the bad-guy version of the same.
Castozor wrote: In no way should a standard marine be this much tougher than say an Ork or genestealer, hell primaris make my Plague Marines look like chumps. 2W basic infantry is bad design period.
Of course a marine should be much more powerful than a basic ork! Orks sprout like mushrooms, standard boys are dime in a dozen. But sure, CSM should have the primamris profile as that is just the profile all marines should have.
More powerful than an Immortal? More powerful than a Genestealer? More Powerful than a Warp Spider, Striking Scorpion and Dire Avenger? If so, how much so? Should their gun be superior to both a Tau Pulse Rifle and Necron Gauss Blaster. . . at the same time?
Should 10 Marines, when engaging waves of Orks, simply be able to just stand in cover and shoot until they are dead? At what point should they start to require support from Land Speeders or Whirlwind artillery? 20 Orks? 50 Orks? 100 Orks? Where do you draw the line?
Most people are still mad about Immortals being reduced to Marine statlines so what's your point? Also you get two to three Pulse Rifles per Bolt Rifle and no the Bolt Rifle is inferior to the Gauss Blaster. More pure Primaris hatred because you're stuck in Manlet Marine World.
Never understood this line of thinking...CSM have all kinds of stuff marines dont have. Like...Cult marines - daemon engines - daemons - cultists. Primaris should be imperial specific because they are literally an imperial attempt to strengthen humanities grip on their empire which is slowly slipping away. Leave primaris envy at the door. Embrace the things that make your army unique. Choas should not have everything loyalist space marines do.
Not the exact same things, but things of similar power. It always bugged me that CSM, some of which vere super ancient veterans infused with chaos power were now better than brand new loyalists. And now they're relaively even worse. Tis chaos thing is obviously a total hoax.
I don't play CSM, I play loyalist marines. But CSM should be terrifying warp-fuelled monstrosities with millennia's worth of experience and spite.
In comparison to Necrons, Genestealers, Orks, Aspect Warriors, etc.? Just straight up double the wounds? Should it be possible for a single Bolter round to take a marine out of action? How about a Heavy Bolter shell? You know, the fist-sized grenade-bullet? How about a swing with a Power Sword? Should a single Power Sword strike be absolutely unable to take a marine out of action?
The idea of Wounds is more than abstract enough to cover this. Primaris happen to be tough enough to keep going through what might incapacitate others. Should some other units maybe also have 2 wounds? Sure.
But fundamentally this isn't a fine-simulation game and the damage characteristic of a heavy bolter shot incorporates detonating next to and obliterating some poor Guardsman and also putting a Space Marine full of shrapnel even though he can fight through the pain.
I think worrying about things beyond the more impressionistic way falls apart quite quickly. Why do we accept infantry characters having more than 1 wound? and so on. There's balance and playability to worry about beyond that as well.
Getting to balance 2W infantry can actually provide a neat consideration in listbuilding/unit roles. For example before getting buffed to high heaven we could consider that a Primaris marine's single Bolt Rifle means that a squad of them would have 10 wounds but put out ~half the shots of 10 wounds worth of Tacs. In general vs. other armies the idea would be Primaris get more wounds per point but at the cost of less shooting per point.
Which brings the whole thing around to what I see as the real issue currently: Right now, thanks to the extra stuff, rather than the datasheet, Primaris basically just get to be more efficient at everything.
Not Online!!! wrote: are we okay with the fact that the numarine bikes are literally 2 khorneberzerkers strapped to a bike with double the wounds and more dakka then heavy bolters?
Not to mention Volkite, you know that heresy stuff that supposedly constantly get's carried around by you know, legionaires
I am okay with marines getting this, but I totally agree CSM players being salty. CSM should have similar stuff too. Just give the primaris statline to all marines, including the CSM.
And to Dire Avengers, and to Incubi, and to Immortals.
Hummm Exarch warriors could use a buff and a point increase. They should not become more durable though in wound total. Perhaps an agility save should be standard on all of them though (something like a 5+FNP).
Avengers should probably automatically rend with all their wounds or something shooty offensive.
Incubi seem pretty okay for me right now. If they had a 5+ FNP they would be amazing.
Warriors I think probably should have 2 wounds with a 4+. An Immortal? An immortal should probably be more comparable to a marine in gravis armor. They should cost a lot more for these buffs though. Rules wise you have to be really careful with defensive power on units that can come back to life though...that is common sense.
Crimson wrote: "Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops,"
And how do you interpret that? Just standing in a line shooting at each other? Or perhaps there's more nuance to it, that speak to some of the other marine abilities and doctrine?
Yeah, theres also the inconvenience that this works awesome for super masturbatory fanfic and incredibly gakky in a game where everyones models cost the same price.
Theres a line where people are no longer going to accept your space marines that you got a 1k pt army of for 100 bucks requiring 500+$ of other factions models to fight.
Not Online!!! wrote: are we okay with the fact that the numarine bikes are literally 2 khorneberzerkers strapped to a bike with double the wounds and more dakka then heavy bolters?
Not to mention Volkite, you know that heresy stuff that supposedly constantly get's carried around by you know, legionaires
I am okay with marines getting this, but I totally agree CSM players being salty. CSM should have similar stuff too. Just give the primaris statline to all marines, including the CSM.
Never understood this line of thinking...CSM have all kinds of stuff marines dont have. Like...Cult marines - daemon engines - daemons - cultists. Primaris should be imperial specific because they are literally an imperial attempt to strengthen humanities grip on their empire which is slowly slipping away. Leave primaris envy at the door. Embrace the things that make your army unique. Choas should not have everything loyalist space marines do.
Ok, then explain why none of this
Xenomancers wrote:"Basic infantry"
Well a good thing they aren't basic infantry.
A Gaurdsmen is a basic infantry. You take a Gaurdsmen. You tripple it's overall mass and give it a mechanical powered suit and a rapid fire grenade launcher and mutiple bionic augments. Essentially it is a machine at that point. Much stronger than an ork. As fast as an eldar. As tough as a necron. The only way to model this is to make them more expensive but as good or better at all the jobs these other troops do. They finally got this right. Stop whining about it and bring as much plasma and weapons with -AP as you can to deal with it. WAIT. That has been the go to stratagey in every freaking addition and as a result marines have ALWAYS sucked because all their stats can be ignored. 2 W is the only way to make these guys even remotely more durable than multiples of chaff units.
It's all the other stuff that's getting stacked on top that's the problem. Extra AP, extra-special rapidfire rules, re-rolling everything, extra attacks on top!
But the issue is you can't really just have one. The reason all those things got stacked on top is precisely because once you start giving a troop choice 2W each, you need to dial up their points, and that means that if you don't also dial up their offense, they end up being anemic at killing things. This is kind-of what happened to primaris at 8th edition release - they had the defensive toughness, and the premium price tag, but not the offense to back it up.
The big reason 2W is bad is because it results in an arms race that ends up kicking up all those other stats too, along with deflating the points costs of other armies as essentially every standard 1W infantry model suddenly becomes chaff in comparison.
In comparison to Necrons, Genestealers, Orks, Aspect Warriors, etc.? Just straight up double the wounds? Should it be possible for a single Bolter round to take a marine out of action? How about a Heavy Bolter shell? You know, the fist-sized grenade-bullet? How about a swing with a Power Sword? Should a single Power Sword strike be absolutely unable to take a marine out of action?
The idea of Wounds is more than abstract enough to cover this. Primaris happen to be tough enough to keep going through what might incapacitate others. Should some other units maybe also have 2 wounds? Sure.
But fundamentally this isn't a fine-simulation game and the damage characteristic of a heavy bolter shot incorporates detonating next to and obliterating some poor Guardsman and also putting a Space Marine full of shrapnel even though he can fight through the pain.
I think worrying about things beyond the more impressionistic way falls apart quite quickly. Why do we accept infantry characters having more than 1 wound? and so on. There's balance and playability to worry about beyond that as well.
Getting to balance 2W infantry can actually provide a neat consideration in listbuilding/unit roles. For example before getting buffed to high heaven we could consider that a Primaris marine's single Bolt Rifle means that a squad of them would have 10 wounds but put out ~half the shots of 10 wounds worth of Tacs. In general vs. other armies the idea would be Primaris get more wounds per point but at the cost of less shooting per point.
Which brings the whole thing around to what I see as the real issue currently: Right now, thanks to the extra stuff, rather than the datasheet, Primaris basically just get to be more efficient at everything.
So I'll grant you that things are abstracted for the game, absolutely. But the fact that a heavy bolter round still can't one-shot a marine really doesn't feel appropriate.
Consider a different model instead. Make Marines/Primaris/whatever T5, but keep the old wound chart, and keep them 1W. A S3 weapon now only wounds on a 6, reducing incoming damage by half (the same as 2W), but S4 weapons now wound only on a 5+, reducing damage by a third, and still allowing the one-shot kill. A Heavy Bolter wounds only on a 4+ now, but also can achieve a 1 shot kill. Imo this would have been a far better model than 2W. 2W is a giant and unnecessary buff, especially when combined with the 8th ed wound chart which reduced the hitting power of higher strength weapons as well.
Never understood this line of thinking...CSM have all kinds of stuff marines dont have. Like...Cult marines - daemon engines - daemons - cultists. Primaris should be imperial specific because they are literally an imperial attempt to strengthen humanities grip on their empire which is slowly slipping away. Leave primaris envy at the door. Embrace the things that make your army unique. Choas should not have everything loyalist space marines do.
Not the exact same things, but things of similar power. It always bugged me that CSM, some of which vere super ancient veterans infused with chaos power were now better than brand new loyalists. And now they're relaively even worse. Tis chaos thing is obviously a total hoax.
I don't play CSM, I play loyalist marines. But CSM should be terrifying warp-fuelled monstrosities with millennia's worth of experience and spite.
I mean...Bezerkers kinda are that. So are Possessed...So is Mortarian! I'm not opposed to choas having additional tricky power...or the ability to overpower a marine army with daemonic possessed psychic powers or something. Even now - choas is better at everything other than just standing in a ball and shooting everything up.
Not Online!!! wrote: are we okay with the fact that the numarine bikes are literally 2 khorneberzerkers strapped to a bike with double the wounds and more dakka then heavy bolters?
Not to mention Volkite, you know that heresy stuff that supposedly constantly get's carried around by you know, legionaires
I am okay with marines getting this, but I totally agree CSM players being salty. CSM should have similar stuff too. Just give the primaris statline to all marines, including the CSM.
Never understood this line of thinking...CSM have all kinds of stuff marines dont have. Like...Cult marines - daemon engines - daemons - cultists. Primaris should be imperial specific because they are literally an imperial attempt to strengthen humanities grip on their empire which is slowly slipping away. Leave primaris envy at the door. Embrace the things that make your army unique. Choas should not have everything loyalist space marines do.
First Off chaos.
Secondly:i don't want primaris, i just wonder wtf VOLKITE HERESY TECH MAKES ON CHILDREN AGEWISE that allready have everything +1.
thirdly: cultmarines suck because gw said so, beeing just csm (which are Bad allready) but more expensive and therefore worse. Daemonengines have as Of yet never had an Edition where they actually worked . And cultist have just been taken behind the shed because feth light infantry and if you dare bring up fw R&H i swear i will dreadsock someone.
Genestealers are one thing. And just like CSM/Tacticals, they too should get another wound...
What annoyes me more and more is how the actual elite Nid infantry is downgraded with every edition. Why Nid Warriors and Raveners were left on their ages-old 3W when everything else was multipled.
When I started, Nid Warriors were roughly on a Terminator level, at least against bolters and lighter anti-infantry weapons, three times as many wounds as marines, superior melee skill, boneswords were much better than power swords and with whips they attacked faster than marines. A single melee warrior could cut down several marines per phase.
They were colossal and deadly in comparison to marines.
And right now, a Nid Warrior is merely comparable to a mundane Intercessor. It has some advantages, some disadvantages, slightly better RAW stats but a fraction of special rules and synergies.
The points are more or less balanced, so that's not an issue, but this is a horrible and humiliating place to be for these beautiful heavies.
They aren't supposed to be on par with general marine troops. They should be more like Aggressors, relatively to the current Marine line, ability-wise, and pointwise. Sorry, properly costed Aggressors, not the current undercosted joke.
Never understood this line of thinking...CSM have all kinds of stuff marines dont have. Like...Cult marines - daemon engines - daemons - cultists. Primaris should be imperial specific because they are literally an imperial attempt to strengthen humanities grip on their empire which is slowly slipping away. Leave primaris envy at the door. Embrace the things that make your army unique. Choas should not have everything loyalist space marines do.
Not the exact same things, but things of similar power. It always bugged me that CSM, some of which vere super ancient veterans infused with chaos power were now better than brand new loyalists. And now they're relaively even worse. Tis chaos thing is obviously a total hoax.
I don't play CSM, I play loyalist marines. But CSM should be terrifying warp-fuelled monstrosities with millennia's worth of experience and spite.
I mean...Bezerkers kinda are that. So are Possessed...So is Mortarian! I'm not opposed to choas having additional tricky power...or the ability to overpower a marine army with daemonic possessed psychic powers or something. Even now - choas is better at everything other than just standing in a ball and shooting everything up.
Hence why I push for CSM to all have Vet stats at minimum.
Not Online!!! wrote: are we okay with the fact that the numarine bikes are literally 2 khorneberzerkers strapped to a bike with double the wounds and more dakka then heavy bolters?
Not to mention Volkite, you know that heresy stuff that supposedly constantly get's carried around by you know, legionaires
I am okay with marines getting this, but I totally agree CSM players being salty. CSM should have similar stuff too. Just give the primaris statline to all marines, including the CSM.
Never understood this line of thinking...CSM have all kinds of stuff marines dont have. Like...Cult marines - daemon engines - daemons - cultists. Primaris should be imperial specific because they are literally an imperial attempt to strengthen humanities grip on their empire which is slowly slipping away. Leave primaris envy at the door. Embrace the things that make your army unique. Choas should not have everything loyalist space marines do.
Ok, then explain why none of this
Xenomancers wrote:"Basic infantry"
Well a good thing they aren't basic infantry.
A Gaurdsmen is a basic infantry. You take a Gaurdsmen. You tripple it's overall mass and give it a mechanical powered suit and a rapid fire grenade launcher and mutiple bionic augments. Essentially it is a machine at that point. Much stronger than an ork. As fast as an eldar. As tough as a necron. The only way to model this is to make them more expensive but as good or better at all the jobs these other troops do. They finally got this right. Stop whining about it and bring as much plasma and weapons with -AP as you can to deal with it. WAIT. That has been the go to stratagey in every freaking addition and as a result marines have ALWAYS sucked because all their stats can be ignored. 2 W is the only way to make these guys even remotely more durable than multiples of chaff units.
Applies to csm. I wait with baited breath.
I was speaking in the sense that they should have made this the standard marine stat line. They didn't. They went the primaris route. So this does kind of suck for CSM. I can empathize. I have 2 CSM armies myself - BL and TS...The solution can not be to give all chaos bodies 2 wounds too - then we are back to square 1. CSM would just be primaris plus 1 with every unique feature on cult marines, ect. You do make a good point though...
Castozor wrote: In no way should a standard marine be this much tougher than say an Ork or genestealer, hell primaris make my Plague Marines look like chumps. 2W basic infantry is bad design period.
"Basic infantry"
Well a good thing they aren't basic infantry.
A Gaurdsmen is a basic infantry. You take a Gaurdsmen. You tripple it's overall mass and give it a mechanical powered suit and a rapid fire grenade launcher and mutiple bionic augments. Essentially it is a machine at that point. Much stronger than an ork. As fast as an eldar. As tough as a necron. The only way to model this is to make them more expensive but as good or better at all the jobs these other troops do. They finally got this right. Stop whining about it and bring as much plasma and weapons with -AP as you can to deal with it. WAIT. That has been the go to stratagey in every freaking addition and as a result marines have ALWAYS sucked because all their stats can be ignored. 2 W is the only way to make these guys even remotely more durable than multiples of chaff units.
If we were going the basic infantry route for marines. Dropping a standard marine down to 9 or 10 points for what it does on the table would have been the way to go about doing that.
They are basic infantry for their faction game-wise. Guardsman compared to everything out there in the galaxy is sub-basic but it's what IG has to work with. And no a space marine is not much tougher than an Ork, were do people get this idea from. Orks can survive bolters to the head, how durable do you think some gene-enhanced human is exactly to be twice as tough as that? I'm not whining either, I have more wins than losses against SM, although that might be down to my opponents. But I do take issue with one faction having 2W basic infantry, it breaks the game.
"Our thing is being way better than everyone else at literally everything" is not a good identity for a major faction in a multiplayer game. It's bad enough for custodes, but they're a special case. There is a reason there are basically no examples of "this faction's thing is being way better at everything, and has less guys to compensate" ever working in a competitive game. It's just bad game design. It doesn't work.
For 30+ years, GW understood this, which is why space marines had a better stat line than any other baseline troops, but not radically so. Space marines were still troops like everybody else's troops. Very good, disciplined, tough ones with excellent armor and better weapons...but still troops like everybody else's troops.
The move to 2W space marines - with all the offensive power creep that also required to make a 2W model viable - broke the basic paradigm the game has been built on for its entire history. It's why we ended up with 6-model aggressor squads firing 140 shots, and also why we now have 4W 6A space marine bikers.
Not Online!!! wrote: are we okay with the fact that the numarine bikes are literally 2 khorneberzerkers strapped to a bike with double the wounds and more dakka then heavy bolters?
Not to mention Volkite, you know that heresy stuff that supposedly constantly get's carried around by you know, legionaires
I am okay with marines getting this, but I totally agree CSM players being salty. CSM should have similar stuff too. Just give the primaris statline to all marines, including the CSM.
Never understood this line of thinking...CSM have all kinds of stuff marines dont have. Like...Cult marines - daemon engines - daemons - cultists. Primaris should be imperial specific because they are literally an imperial attempt to strengthen humanities grip on their empire which is slowly slipping away. Leave primaris envy at the door. Embrace the things that make your army unique. Choas should not have everything loyalist space marines do.
First Off chaos.
Secondly:i don't want primaris, i just wonder wtf VOLKITE HERESY TECH MAKES ON CHILDREN AGEWISE that allready have everything +1.
thirdly: cultmarines suck because gw said so, beeing just csm (which are Bad allready) but more expensive and therefore worse. Daemonengines have as Of yet never had an Edition where they actually worked . And cultist have just been taken behind the shed because feth light infantry and if you dare bring up fw R&H i swear i will dreadsock someone.
You really think noise marines and berserkers suck?
Yes both do , welcome to chaos, infact they suck so Hard Like the Rest Of These "veterans", that you need multiple hq, subfaction traits/stratagems and Orders and psy shouted at them to the point your average 2-3 batt Reserve of cp has Run dry by Turn 3 mid.
Noise marines can be pretty good in the right list, but it has to be the right list. They are kinda the polar opposite of intercessors that are just good all the time no matter what.
I'd give banshees the ability to fight three times each fight phase and -2 to be hit in melee since in the lore they move so fast humans can't even react to them.
This could be fun. We can describe how we'd "Primaris" all the other game factions to make them comparable again.
They have never had any kind of representation of their speed except the fleet rule.
And they never had marines with 2W until they did, either. That's the point. We're going to Primaris every faction, because Primaris are cool and that means it would be cool if everyone got Primarised. More wounds, more dice, more attacks, more awesome!
I was thinking banshees can get a special -2 to hit because <reasons> just like primaris have 2W when nobody else does because <reasons>, but if it makes you happier, we could just give them a rule that only ever allows them to be hit in combat on 6s instead?
Not Online!!! wrote: are we okay with the fact that the numarine bikes are literally 2 khorneberzerkers strapped to a bike with double the wounds and more dakka then heavy bolters?
Not to mention Volkite, you know that heresy stuff that supposedly constantly get's carried around by you know, legionaires
I am okay with marines getting this, but I totally agree CSM players being salty. CSM should have similar stuff too. Just give the primaris statline to all marines, including the CSM.
Never understood this line of thinking...CSM have all kinds of stuff marines dont have. Like...Cult marines - daemon engines - daemons - cultists. Primaris should be imperial specific because they are literally an imperial attempt to strengthen humanities grip on their empire which is slowly slipping away. Leave primaris envy at the door. Embrace the things that make your army unique. Choas should not have everything loyalist space marines do.
Ok, then explain why none of this
Xenomancers wrote:"Basic infantry"
Well a good thing they aren't basic infantry.
A Gaurdsmen is a basic infantry. You take a Gaurdsmen. You tripple it's overall mass and give it a mechanical powered suit and a rapid fire grenade launcher and mutiple bionic augments. Essentially it is a machine at that point. Much stronger than an ork. As fast as an eldar. As tough as a necron. The only way to model this is to make them more expensive but as good or better at all the jobs these other troops do. They finally got this right. Stop whining about it and bring as much plasma and weapons with -AP as you can to deal with it. WAIT. That has been the go to stratagey in every freaking addition and as a result marines have ALWAYS sucked because all their stats can be ignored. 2 W is the only way to make these guys even remotely more durable than multiples of chaff units.
Applies to csm. I wait with baited breath.
I was speaking in the sense that they should have made this the standard marine stat line. They didn't. They went the primaris route. So this does kind of suck for CSM. I can empathize. I have 2 CSM armies myself - BL and TS...The solution can not be to give all chaos bodies 2 wounds too - then we are back to square 1. CSM would just be primaris plus 1 with every unique feature on cult marines, ect. You do make a good point though...
"Primaris plus 1"? How? Without doctrines, super doctrines, and legion traits that affect our entire army? No, csm don't need another wound, they need units that are good without stacking buffs on them. Start with making chosen a troops choice for all the legions. Then start addressing legion traits and our other units. 2 wound troops were a bad idea.
No, they weren't. Keeping everything at one wound is a mistake Just like not make T12 and S16 a thing is a mistake. They keep adding units but don't stretch the stats to differentiate them.
They have never had any kind of representation of their speed except the fleet rule.
And they never had marines with 2W until they did, either. That's the point. We're going to Primaris every faction, because Primaris are cool and that means it would be cool if everyone got Primarised. More wounds, more dice, more attacks, more awesome!
I was thinking banshees can get a special -2 to hit because <reasons> just like primaris have 2W when nobody else does because <reasons>, but if it makes you happier, we could just give them a rule that only ever allows them to be hit in combat on 6s instead?
Martel732 wrote: No, they weren't. Keeping everything at one wound is a mistake Just like not make T12 and S16 a thing is a mistake. They keep adding units but don't stretch the stats to differentiate them.
They have never had any kind of representation of their speed except the fleet rule.
And they never had marines with 2W until they did, either. That's the point. We're going to Primaris every faction, because Primaris are cool and that means it would be cool if everyone got Primarised. More wounds, more dice, more attacks, more awesome!
I was thinking banshees can get a special -2 to hit because <reasons> just like primaris have 2W when nobody else does because <reasons>, but if it makes you happier, we could just give them a rule that only ever allows them to be hit in combat on 6s instead?
How about just a 4++ dodge?
It was for basic troops. And did you just advocate a unit getting a 4++ invul?
Martel732 wrote: No, they weren't. Keeping everything at one wound is a mistake Just like not make T12 and S16 a thing is a mistake. They keep adding units but don't stretch the stats to differentiate them.
They have never had any kind of representation of their speed except the fleet rule.
And they never had marines with 2W until they did, either. That's the point. We're going to Primaris every faction, because Primaris are cool and that means it would be cool if everyone got Primarised. More wounds, more dice, more attacks, more awesome!
I was thinking banshees can get a special -2 to hit because <reasons> just like primaris have 2W when nobody else does because <reasons>, but if it makes you happier, we could just give them a rule that only ever allows them to be hit in combat on 6s instead?
How about just a 4++ dodge?
It was for basic troops. And did you just advocate a unit getting a 4++ invul?
Which makes the whole thing even sadder when the supposed specialist faction which supposedly fields some of the best in their role just can't compete against a bloody Generalist foottroop .
Martel732 wrote: I'd give cult marines 3W since they are crazy power infused badasses.
So true.
Though I also agree that all marines should have been 2wounds with the release of 8th, that restartes should have been simply new marine models with marine weaponry but bigger, true scale.
But instead now we have meltarifles and volkite Cawl spitters. Ick. Cawl is heresy.
Not Online!!! wrote: Invul for a squishy melee unit only in melee which makes Sense.
Yes, to me or you, but Martel hates invuls. I was just surprised.
Actually the 4++ dodge is an elegant solution. But comparative weapon skill and initiative values can do similar work or synergize with an always on -1 to hit... something like that.
There's nothing inherently wrong with 2w troops, the game just didn't update enough profiles with 8th to keep up. Rubrics have had two wounds and been troops for years. Tyranid warriors have three and have been troops for a minute, now, and the game has survived. Why have a wound stat at all if you aren't going to use it? I'm all for moving to an Apocalypse style game and consolidating stats if we want hundreds of models fighting it out, but if we're going to play an oversized skirmish game, shouldn't we take the granularity that offers?
Marines are "supposed" to be durable jacks of all trades. A basic intercessor (which would ideally be the marine baseline) seems like a pretty good representation of that when compared to a guardsman or other chaff unit. Good armor, can take a couple of lasgun hits and keep chugging, a gun that makes a mess of those same chaff units but can't really threaten a tank, fights like he remembered to bring those combat blades they're always on about, etc.. The problem isn't in the base stats, it's in all the extras that have been piled on top. I'm sure we can all remember the early days of 8th where they were durable troops that weren't setting the world on fire, so got ignored for battalion filling min scouts to power the real workhorses.
Compounding this, a lot of other units just got left behind in the 8th ed shuffle. Aspect warriors should obviously be better at their jobs than a random marine, but never tougher (in T/W; dodging via a penalty to hit, save, referencing an additional stat that reflects reflexes, etc. makes sense) or as flexible. Genestealers should be absolute blenders if they make it to you, but not hard to gun down if they're out in the open. Tanks should be able to shrug off more damage than a single squad of dudes (while anti-tank weapons should be doing more damage to compensate, which would give room for distinction between weapon types). Guardsmen should be cheap as chips and get things done by weight of numbers and the big guns they're standing in front of. Tau get the good guns, but not the durability. Necrons should be tougher and more deadly, but less numerous and slow when footslogging. There are a ton of examples, GW was just too conservative with what they were willing to change when they had the chance.
Not Online!!! wrote: are we okay with the fact that the numarine bikes are literally 2 khorneberzerkers strapped to a bike with double the wounds and more dakka then heavy bolters?
Not to mention Volkite, you know that heresy stuff that supposedly constantly get's carried around by you know, legionaires
I am okay with marines getting this, but I totally agree CSM players being salty. CSM should have similar stuff too. Just give the primaris statline to all marines, including the CSM.
Absolutely agreed. I'd honestly love for regular Marines (of all stripes) to get that 2W goodness.
For everyone saying "you're saying Marines are tougher than Orks, Necrons, Aspect Warriors, Genestealers" - yes, I am.
Orks aren't as tough as Marines. Necrons are tough in that they keep reanimating, not that they're innately as durable. Aspect Warriors are fast and skilled, not tough. Genestealers get mowed down in bolter fire. Marines take considerably more.
In nearly every prior edition I've played, my basic Marines did not feel elite. They felt like mooks guarding a single useful weapon. A bolter marine felt less useful than guardsmen did, because at least I knew to expect little from guardsmen - whereas a goddamn Space Marine with a thrice blessed bolter just went down like a chump, all to protect the one squad member who actually meant a damn. And with Primaris actually making a difference, going up to two Wounds, and with single Marines actually being a tangible threat, I enjoyed them all the more.
Is that to say nothing else should be brought up to that level? No. I would be massively in favour of Marines seeing a size reduction in their armies, where 1500 point armies looked more like 1000 point ones. I'd be in favour of Eldar Aspect Warriors being more powerful (and more expensive on a similar level). I'd be in favour of Chaos getting those same benefits Marines do, and also feeling tanky as hell.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: For everyone saying "you're saying Marines are tougher than Orks, Necrons, Aspect Warriors, Genestealers" - yes, I am.
Orks aren't as tough as Marines.
Necrons are tough in that they keep reanimating, not that they're innately as durable.
Aspect Warriors are fast and skilled, not tough.
Genestealers get mowed down in bolter fire. Marines take considerably more.
Imagine for a moment, that Marines had better armor than all of those examples. . .
Oh. . . They do!
And Necron Warriors should be as durable as Marines, and have RP on top of that, but that's another discussion.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: In nearly every prior edition I've played, my basic Marines did not feel elite.
Now also, imagine, for a moment, that instead of playing marines, you were playing Dire Avengers, Striking Scorpions etc, against Primaris under the current paradigm. How elite do your elite units feel?
I don't think it's even right to say space marines are stronger or tougher than orks. Space marines are more durable because they have much better armor, but that's really it. Orks are extremely durable on a physical level. They were literally created by far, far, far more powerful genetic scientists than Cawl could ever dream to be, specifically for their strength and toughness.
The people talking about space marine skill, strength, toughness etc tend to conveniently forget that according to 40k lore, every major race was created by beings vastly better at manipulating genes than the Imperium could hope to be in a million years.
Space marines are superior to normal humans, but that doesn't mean they're superior to normal xenos at the specific purposes those xenos were created for.
This is yet another reason that Primaris are stupid.
yukishiro1 wrote: I don't think it's even right to say space marines are stronger or tougher than orks. Space marines are more durable because they have much better armor, but that's really it. Orks are extremely durable on a physical level. They were literally created by far, far, far more powerful genetic scientists than Cawl could ever dream to be, specifically for their strength and toughness.
The people talking about space marine skill, strength, toughness etc tend to conveniently forget that according to 40k lore, every major race was created by beings vastly better at manipulating genes than the Imperium could hope to be in a million years.
Space marines are superior to normal humans, but that doesn't mean they're superior to normal xenos at the specific purposes those xenos were created for.
This is yet another reason that Primaris are stupid.
I agree with you but for some reason Primaris defenders really do think that yes a regular Space Marine is both faster and more skillful than an Eldar, tougher than an Ork/Necron and yes them having 2 wounds for a regular dude when no one else gets this somehow makes sense. Unfortunately it seems GW agrees, so everyone else's elites can feel like trash but marine players get their power fantasy. I wasn't even all that salty before, but really some Primaris biker gets more attacks than my Warboss? That's just a joke on so many levels.
Martel732 wrote: No, they weren't. Keeping everything at one wound is a mistake Just like not make T12 and S16 a thing is a mistake. They keep adding units but don't stretch the stats to differentiate them.
They have never had any kind of representation of their speed except the fleet rule.
And they never had marines with 2W until they did, either. That's the point. We're going to Primaris every faction, because Primaris are cool and that means it would be cool if everyone got Primarised. More wounds, more dice, more attacks, more awesome!
I was thinking banshees can get a special -2 to hit because <reasons> just like primaris have 2W when nobody else does because <reasons>, but if it makes you happier, we could just give them a rule that only ever allows them to be hit in combat on 6s instead?
How about just a 4++ dodge?
It was for basic troops. And did you just advocate a unit getting a 4++ invul?
Yeah, I think its appropriate in this context. Maybe reduce it to 6++ vs shooting.
My go to example is:
If a bolter shell explodes in a guardsmans shoulder, well he's dead and is out of the combat.
If a bolter shell explodes in a marines shoulder, well he loses his arm and is out of the combat.
If a bolter shell explodes in a orks shoulder, well he pick it up with his other arm and beat you to death with it.
From what we have been told of SM physiology; they have strong bones and scab wounds quickly. Does that warrant extra Toughness and another wound from human standard?
Tygre wrote: My go to example is:
If a bolter shell explodes in a guardsmans shoulder, well he's dead and is out of the combat.
If a bolter shell explodes in a marines shoulder, well he loses his arm and is out of the combat.
If a bolter shell explodes in a orks shoulder, well he pick it up with his other arm and beat you to death with it.
From what we have been told of SM physiology; they have strong bones and scab wounds quickly. Does that warrant extra Toughness and another wound from human standard?
Yes, it does. Orks should probably have 2W and FNP on top. The game needs to stretch the stats so we can differentiate units properly.
Tygre wrote: My go to example is:
If a bolter shell explodes in a guardsmans shoulder, well he's dead and is out of the combat.
If a bolter shell explodes in a marines shoulder, well he loses his arm and is out of the combat.
If a bolter shell explodes in a orks shoulder, well he pick it up with his other arm and beat you to death with it.
From what we have been told of SM physiology; they have strong bones and scab wounds quickly. Does that warrant extra Toughness and another wound from human standard?
Yes, it does. Orks should probably have 2W and FNP on top. The game needs to stretch the stats so we can differentiate units properly.
Last time I suggested 2W Orks I got shouted down. I was told the Orks durability is shown by his T alone. I am glad that I am not alone in my thinking that Orks need more wounds.
Tygre wrote: My go to example is:
If a bolter shell explodes in a guardsmans shoulder, well he's dead and is out of the combat.
If a bolter shell explodes in a marines shoulder, well he loses his arm and is out of the combat.
If a bolter shell explodes in a orks shoulder, well he pick it up with his other arm and beat you to death with it.
From what we have been told of SM physiology; they have strong bones and scab wounds quickly. Does that warrant extra Toughness and another wound from human standard?
Yes, it does. Orks should probably have 2W and FNP on top. The game needs to stretch the stats so we can differentiate units properly.
Last time I suggested 2W Orks I got shouted down. I was told the Orks durability is shown by his T alone. I am glad that I am not alone in my thinking that Orks need more wounds.
I think given the lethality of the current game a 6+ save is negligible. At least a second wound would have some weight to it.
Tygre wrote: My go to example is:
If a bolter shell explodes in a guardsmans shoulder, well he's dead and is out of the combat.
If a bolter shell explodes in a marines shoulder, well he loses his arm and is out of the combat.
If a bolter shell explodes in a orks shoulder, well he pick it up with his other arm and beat you to death with it.
From what we have been told of SM physiology; they have strong bones and scab wounds quickly. Does that warrant extra Toughness and another wound from human standard?
Yes, it does. Orks should probably have 2W and FNP on top. The game needs to stretch the stats so we can differentiate units properly.
Last time I suggested 2W Orks I got shouted down. I was told the Orks durability is shown by his T alone. I am glad that I am not alone in my thinking that Orks need more wounds.
to be fair, think custodes should have 5. More differentiation.
I like the idea of the one-man turrets, but I don't like the execution. I plan on making a tracked rapier-carrier like contraption, with twin autocannons on top (I'm thinking the ones from the Taurox would work great), put it on a 60mm base with a Primaris marine following behind with a remote control unit. Would anyone here have a problem with that?
cuda1179 wrote: I like the idea of the one-man turrets, but I don't like the execution. I plan on making a tracked rapier-carrier like contraption, with twin autocannons on top (I'm thinking the ones from the Taurox would work great), put it on a 60mm base with a Primaris marine following behind with a remote control unit. Would anyone here have a problem with that?
I should hope not, conversions should be encouraged in general.
cuda1179 wrote: I like the idea of the one-man turrets, but I don't like the execution. I plan on making a tracked rapier-carrier like contraption, with twin autocannons on top (I'm thinking the ones from the Taurox would work great), put it on a 60mm base with a Primaris marine following behind with a remote control unit. Would anyone here have a problem with that?
Wouldnt it be a lot smaller then the gun turret though?
Orks with T5 or 2W or 4+++ are all awful ideas. All these suggestions, especially the 2W and 4+++ would increase the dice rolling which is the current biggest problem of 40k. SM aside.
The solution to decrease lethality is to decrease powerful offensive combos and rate of fire, not to make everything tougher.
I'm not even against SM troops being 2W, it's their 2W, multiple buffs and cheap points values combo that is absurd. I'm all in favor of a super elite army, but then give SM points costs like custodes units. Army still viable, less dice rolling, background respected and problem solved.
I'm not sure the 2 wounds are the problem; as others have said, it's the cumulative bonuses to damage for marines that is the problem.
Primaris bodies are not underpriced compared to the rest of the game, its their army rules are overpowered compared to all other armies.
Since codexes 8.5 have recently released, this put GW in a terrible position where they'll only have one solution : overpower all other armies (compared to their current state) to catch up with marines.
I do hope they do for 10th what they did for 8th : a hard reset for all datasheets, army rules, and points values with lower damage, rerolls, and shooting distance. one can hope.
But marine armies that don't have access to the cumulative bonuses end up just being bad. They cost too much to be really resilient, can't deal with horde, can't deal with stuff like eldar flyers or specific super fast melee units. And when marines are bad, then most of players in w40k are having a bad time, because most players are marines. And GW would be really stupid if they tried to make their core players and buyers unhappy for a longer time.
Insectum7 wrote: Imagine for a moment, that Marines had better armor than all of those examples. . .
Oh. . . They do!
Imagine if that armour actually made Marines significantly durable.
And Necron Warriors should be as durable as Marines, and have RP on top of that, but that's another discussion.
Disagree, but that's another discussion.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: In nearly every prior edition I've played, my basic Marines did not feel elite.
Now also, imagine, for a moment, that instead of playing marines, you were playing Dire Avengers, Striking Scorpions etc, against Primaris under the current paradigm. How elite do your elite units feel?
Where did I say that I didn't want Aspect Warriors to also be at that level?
You're confusing my point with someone else's - I want more things to be at the Primaris level, because, in my opinion, the gap between Guardsmen and Space Marine is too small.
yukishiro1 wrote:I don't think it's even right to say space marines are stronger or tougher than orks. Space marines are more durable because they have much better armor, but that's really it. Orks are extremely durable on a physical level. They were literally created by far, far, far more powerful genetic scientists than Cawl could ever dream to be, specifically for their strength and toughness.
I think you're vastly underselling the durability of an unarmoured Space Marine there.
Orks are, as you said, extremely durable, but so are Space Marines, and I would see the extra Wound as a combination of their durability, armour, and "elite"-ness. I wouldn't give Scouts the extra Wound.
The people talking about space marine skill, strength, toughness etc tend to conveniently forget that according to 40k lore, every major race was created by beings vastly better at manipulating genes than the Imperium could hope to be in a million years.
And yet nearly every race fears the Space Marines. The way I see it, sure, the baseline of most factions is stronger than normal humans, and that's where their "superhumanness" comes in. But a Marine is on par with the the elite forces of those factions, skipping straight over their baseline.
So, if Guardsmen are C Tier, other faction baselines are B Tier, baseline Marines and enemy elites are A Tier.
And yes, before you say anything, that's absolutely just my opinion - but it's got just as much weight as anyone elses.
Karol wrote: But marine armies that don't have access to the cumulative bonuses end up just being bad. They cost too much to be really resilient, can't deal with horde, can't deal with stuff like eldar flyers or specific super fast melee units. And when marines are bad, then most of players in w40k are having a bad time, because most players are marines. And GW would be really stupid if they tried to make their core players and buyers unhappy for a longer time.
No, they probaly wouldn't auto win games but marines always have been solid. Even without 300+ points of free units or thousands of cumulative bonuses. And I could argue that many of those marines players that had bad times are players too used to auto win or kids that don't know how to play properly and just need some experience. Taking bad losses helps becoming good players.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: And yet nearly every race fears the Space Marines.
Basically Tau and Guardians fear Space Marines. Orks don't. Chaos don't. Tyranids don't. Necrons don't. Dark Eldar don't.
Which is sort of why Reiver skull masks were so stupid.
Good at scaring "Guard". Probably not doing much to anyone else.
No, they probaly wouldn't auto win games but marines always have been solid. Even without 300+ points of free units or thousands of cumulative bonuses. And I could argue that many of those marines players that had bad times are players too used to auto win or kids that don't know how to play properly and just need some experience. Taking bad losses helps becoming good players.
Comparing to what bad armies? no one cares about match ups that you already are favoured to win. People care about match ups they can't win or have to struggle to win. And it doesn't matter in the end if the struggle is training more or buying and playing with models you don't like.
The kid comment I find personaly offensive, I don't know how to play all armies, but I know how my army played in 8th, and at best it was a big disadvantage. There were no auto win options, and all the learning from over 2 plus years of playing in 8th tought me only one thing, that GW wrote my army for one way of playing, then removed that way of playing from the game and followed it by nerfs ment for other armies, which hit my army anyway. And by the time they got to fixing my army rules, the edition ended and my store closed. So I got to play 3 games with the new improved rules.
Also people seem to talk a lot about not carrying to win, playing with what they like and hobby being more important then gaming. If that is true, why they care if marines are better. Everytime there is going to be much better then others with the way GW writes their stuff. And if they do care about winning then I have two things to say. First, why lie to new players about the whole play what you want thing and second, I will return the advice given to me, just play a different army, marines are good maybe try those.
harlokin wrote: The solution is clearly to make all Drukhari poison weapons D2. We'll be your huckleberry.
No, everybody rolls too many dice, and the game is just too lethal. The solution is of course, that marine players should say that GW should double the defenses or double the offenses or double the dice rolling for everybody else, and in the meantime while they wait for GW to do that they'll keep using their superdoctrine in games.
Oh if ONLY there was some way to reduce lethality in 40k! If only! Well hopefully GW puts out new codexes for you to buy that makes your stuff roll twice the dice and have twice the wounds.
harlokin wrote: The solution is clearly to make all Drukhari poison weapons D2. We'll be your huckleberry.
No, everybody rolls too many dice, and the game is just too lethal. The solution is of course, that marine players should say that GW should double the defenses or double the offenses or double the dice rolling for everybody else, and in the meantime while they wait for GW to do that they'll keep using their superdoctrine in games.
Oh if ONLY there was some way to reduce lethality in 40k! If only! Well hopefully GW puts out new codexes for you to buy that makes your stuff roll twice the dice and have twice the wounds.
No, they probaly wouldn't auto win games but marines always have been solid. Even without 300+ points of free units or thousands of cumulative bonuses. And I could argue that many of those marines players that had bad times are players too used to auto win or kids that don't know how to play properly and just need some experience. Taking bad losses helps becoming good players.
Comparing to what bad armies? no one cares about match ups that you already are favoured to win. People care about match ups they can't win or have to struggle to win. And it doesn't matter in the end if the struggle is training more or buying and playing with models you don't like.
Comparing to all the armies, not only to the 2-3 flavors of the month: to me if an army has the 5th or 6th best winning rate it's a very competitive army, not something that needs to be pushed. Even in 7th SM were good, actually only 2 factions were clearly superior and only at tournament levels. Some chapters like SW or DA were absolutely competitive, even without free stuff. In 8th edition SM of some kind have been competitive from the beginning to the dawn of 9th. Maybe not always the absolute number 1, but still able to have a chance of defeating anything in any casual and semi-competitive meta in the entire edition and never below the solid mid tiers at competitive levels.
The kid comment I find personaly offensive, I don't know how to play all armies, but I know how my army played in 8th, and at best it was a big disadvantage. There were no auto win options, and all the learning from over 2 plus years of playing in 8th tought me only one thing, that GW wrote my army for one way of playing, then removed that way of playing from the game and followed it by nerfs ment for other armies, which hit my army anyway. And by the time they got to fixing my army rules, the edition ended and my store closed. So I got to play 3 games with the new improved rules.
First off, you don't play SM, you play GK so even if my comment was somehow rude it wasn't aimed at you, you can't possible take it personal then. The thing with SM is that they have always been the easiest army to play, due to their actual profile/rules and also the fact that GW always supports them, the typical faction that the majority of people new to 40k chooses, especially those people who are mostly interested in gaming and not the hobby part.
Also people seem to talk a lot about not carrying to win, playing with what they like and hobby being more important then gaming. If that is true, why they care if marines are better. Everytime there is going to be much better then others with the way GW writes their stuff. And if they do care about winning then I have two things to say. First, why lie to new players about the whole play what you want thing and second, I will return the advice given to me, just play a different army, marines are good maybe try those.
The problem is that even an average collection of SM become overpowered with the tools they have. Not everyone is into overly-competitive gaming, casual games are still very frequent, probably even more common than competitive ones. I'd accept an army with a single list that is basically impossible to defeat, I don't accept that any average collection of that army is so good that basically autowins. This is why I think many SM players complain with no real reasons if their army doesn't perform like the top tiers, they're too used to being pushed by GW that don't gain that needed experience that players from other factions may develop. I accept that in tournaments 2-3 factions have better winning rates than the other ones, I don't accept extremely high winning rates for a faction in casual games.
I already play SW, and even without primaris, they are definitely pretty solid. I don't need the tools that vanilla SM have to compete with the other top tiers, in fact I think DA, SW and BA are exactly how SM should be in terms of competitiveness.
Considering that people build whole arguments on this or that faction being weak or powerful now, because it was the reverse in prior editions, it is hard to ignor though.
Even GW kind of a agrees with this, they just use corpo talk to do it with those , we weren't full happy with this, that in some army wasn't emphasized enough etc. Which all boil down to, we droped the ball. They only don't comment stuff they droped the ball so hard on, that it can't be turned in to a joke.
There's a wonderful passage in one of John Mortimer's novels (Titmuss Regained) where a character muses that music gets uglier as you get older so you won't miss it when you're dead. I'm starting to feel that way about Space Marines. I have ~3 Companies worth or so, and my lingering hopes that there will be Primaris beakies have dwindled to nigh-zilch. On the bright side, all the money I'm not spending on SM has gone to other things.
For years I'd hoped for updates to the Tyranids, and now I'm very very happy they remain as they are.
Let's talk about what that means for a daemonette, since they're supposed to be able to beat assault marines in melee.
The primaris'd assault marines have 2 18" shots and 4 attacks on the charge/being charged.
Daemonettes have no guns, so we'll bump their strength to 4 or 5 so they're killier in melee (either that or we can bump their attacks to 6/7 each, since the marines already have 6 if you include their guns). They'll need to have at least as many attacks (old 'nettes had the same number as old Assault Marines). They're also famous for being able to kill Marines in a single caress, so 2 damage on their melee weapons flat.
We can leave them T3 with 1 wound, if really necessary, but a 5++ doesn't cut it imho - not with the price they'll be paying for their buffed offense. Maybe a 4++, or perhaps an extra wound. T3 with an extra wound and a 5++ is still small compared to a Primaris durability...
Nurglitch wrote: There's a wonderful passage in one of John Mortimer's novels (Titmuss Regained) where a character muses that music gets uglier as you get older so you won't miss it when you're dead. I'm starting to feel that way about Space Marines. I have ~3 Companies worth or so, and my lingering hopes that there will be Primaris beakies have dwindled to nigh-zilch. On the bright side, all the money I'm not spending on SM has gone to other things.
There are primaris beakies. There is a primaris beakie helmet in the Raven Guard sprue and of course old beakie helmets fit them too. They go particularly well with the phobos armour.
Insectum7 wrote: Imagine for a moment, that Marines had better armor than all of those examples. . .
Oh. . . They do!
Imagine if that armour actually made Marines significantly durable.
4 times as likely to survive a 0AP shot over an Ork, and a chance to save against a Lascannon ourside of cover. It takes an entire GEQ squad to down a Space Marine, taking 18-19 Lasgun shots to average a kill outside of cover, and twice that amount if the marine is in cover. Imo, Space Marine durability is fine.
Let's talk about what that means for a daemonette, since they're supposed to be able to beat assault marines in melee. . . .
. . .
this is getting absurd.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Darmonettes could have a bonus to their save or a modifier to be hit for all I care.
You don't care about the potential for a 30-girl unit to have 6 or 7 attacks per model?
And hit modifiers are capped, so we can't use that do change durability (if Terrain gives a -1, then having an additional -1 doesn't do anything). We'll have to adjust their save, it's already a 5++.
I guess an armywide 4++, buffable with warp-surge or Tzeench to a 3++, is totally fine and not broken at all.
Kanluwen wrote: Having an additional -1 absolutely does do something. It negates any potential +1s that a unit has.
If you have a -2 and I have a +1, you still get a -1. If you have a -1 and I have a +1, you have no bonus nor do I.
Ah, yes, all those +1s to hit from one (possibly two, I can't remember) place(s) in the Imperial Guard codex and nowhere else. Definitely would be a useful thing to have.
Couldn't get through the first page...If y'all hate them so much, just don't buy them. Are you really going to sit around and waste your time bitching about it on a forum and then arguing about why you're OPINION is correct? FFS.
[no offense intended to you or Karol]
) Space Marines are knights in space. The bike is subbed in for the horse in this case.
You don't consider the repulsor executioner to be a MBT?
